There really isn’t a whole lot of point to using zhardsnark anyway as the warboss on bike is better with the biggest boss strat... even moreso with the killa klaw.
Unfortunately none of the missing weapon options are in the legends book so all you people who made supaskorcha big trakk well.....
Funnily enough, they nerfed the chinork quite substantially AND shunted it to legends. Thats just low, man.
Yeah, you can really tell they just left it to the interns to do the legends pdf. One of the tauros units has a twin multilaser entry with 3 shots instead of 6, the deffrolla battlefortress doesn't have a melee profile or option to actually take a deffrolla and quite a few other things that are clear errors. Even Zhadsnark is only T6 compared to the new T7 of the Biker Boss we have in the Compendium.
I'm just glad that overall that the vast majority of the non-Legends FW rule for Orks is solid and we didn't lose the crucially important Warboss on Bike. Still sucks about the Chinork though.
Well, legends are legends. Who cares. If you play legends, you can simply fix the rules. Honestly, I don' t know anybody around play it. It seems to me, it is the same like scrap it....
Tomsug wrote: Well, legends are legends. Who cares. If you play legends, you can simply fix the rules. Honestly, I don' t know anybody around play it. It seems to me, it is the same like scrap it....
Speaking of Legends, I'm very tempted to use the MAW legends datasheet since this was released recently...
Spoiler:
I feel like they're too visually distinct to be just used as Meganobz. I guess depending on how you want to convert it you could definitely use one as a MA Big Mek with KFF.
It's really sad when 3rd party sculptors make what we want while GW is still stuck in their perpetual marine-boner phase.
Bonde wrote: Is the Korkscrew Kustom job good enough to field multiple Scrapjets? Or would it be better to field a mix of Scrapjets and Shokk Dragstas to have the option for mortal wounds both in CC and at range?
Personally most of my lists will contain a unit of 3 scrapjets with corkscrew. They're a great all comers unit that help round out a list. I just wish that big shootas get scarier.
gungo wrote: I haven’t seen good pictures of the mek dread profile how did they Redo it’s feel no pain ability
It's just the Ramshackle rule from the Trukk ported over to them, so they no longer have a pseudo 5+ FNP that degrades, they get a 6+ save to reduce damage to 1.
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tulun wrote: Anyone know the rough dimensions of Kill Tanks?
List like this looks kind of fun.
HQ -
KFF Mek (75)
Warboss on Bike (115), Relic Klaw, Da Biggest Boss, Follow me Lads!
Troops -
10 boys - Nob w/ Saw (90)
Elites
2 3x Mega Nobs, Saws (240)
Fast attack
Deff Kopta (35)
3x Dragsters, Whirlgig (330)
4x Mek Guns (160)
3 Kill Tanks, Giga Shoota (825)
Should be 2k I think.
Looks like a fun list, you certainly have enough dakka to deal with horde lists and enough weight of fire to give even marines pause if they try to go into the center without proper cover. I think the only concern would be having enough coverage between the KFF mek and the Kill Tanks since they're fairly big.
Looks like a fun list, you certainly have enough dakka to deal with horde lists and enough weight of fire to give even marines pause if they try to go into the center without proper cover. I think the only concern would be having enough coverage between the KFF mek and the Kill Tanks since they're fairly big.
I think you could make it work turn 1 if you deploy around him in a triangle.
Beyond that, yeah, you could go Deathskulls here for the 6++ at least.
It's a shame the giga shoota isn't an assault weapon. The idea of using a biker boss to make them advance, shoot with no penalty (evil sunz of course) then charge is rather wonderful.
gungo wrote: I haven’t seen good pictures of the mek dread profile how did they Redo it’s feel no pain ability
It's just the Ramshackle rule from the Trukk ported over to them, so they no longer have a pseudo 5+ FNP that degrades, they get a 6+ save to reduce damage to 1.
It was a 4+ fnp that degraded
So this is a pretty big hit.
Bonde wrote: Is the Korkscrew Kustom job good enough to field multiple Scrapjets? Or would it be better to field a mix of Scrapjets and Shokk Dragstas to have the option for mortal wounds both in CC and at range?
Personally most of my lists will contain a unit of 3 scrapjets with corkscrew. They're a great all comers unit that help round out a list. I just wish that big shootas get scarier.
Cheers for the input. I also hope that big shootas at least get -1 AP. Right now they rarely manage to down a single infantry model.
gungo wrote: I haven’t seen good pictures of the mek dread profile how did they Redo it’s feel no pain ability
It's just the Ramshackle rule from the Trukk ported over to them, so they no longer have a pseudo 5+ FNP that degrades, they get a 6+ save to reduce damage to 1.
It was a 4+ fnp that degraded
So this is a pretty big hit.
They did go down close to 100 points, so they are much easier to include in a list now. However they lost access to the KFF, most likely because it was never part of the model.
tulun wrote: Anyone know the rough dimensions of Kill Tanks?
List like this looks kind of fun.
HQ -
KFF Mek (75)
Warboss on Bike (115), Relic Klaw, Da Biggest Boss, Follow me Lads!
Troops -
10 boys - Nob w/ Saw (90)
Elites
2 3x Mega Nobs, Saws (240)
Fast attack
Deff Kopta (35)
3x Dragsters, Whirlgig (330)
4x Mek Guns (160)
3 Kill Tanks, Giga Shoota (825)
Should be 2k I think.
I see a big problem to deploy such a list. Even thou you manage to fitt all three in you deployment zone, it is hard to see that you will manage to drive all three up to the mid board on a standard stable turn one, due to retain.
CaptainO wrote: Maybe it's the blurry screenshot of the video I've seen but has buzzgob lost the kff
Buzzgob never had a KFF, not even for a single second. He merely had the non-functional KFF rules copy&pasted onto him (among other errors, like his toughness).
gungo wrote: There really isn’t a whole lot of point to using zhardsnark anyway as the warboss on bike is better with the biggest boss strat... even moreso with the killa klaw.
Well, Zhad may be an option if we get the same 0-1 warboss limitation that SM got for their captains and we'd want to field two mobile characters. Zhad is still way superior than a wartrike and 10pts cheaper. Locked to Evil Sunz though, which is the main reasosn I'll never play it.
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Bonde wrote: Is the Korkscrew Kustom job good enough to field multiple Scrapjets? Or would it be better to field a mix of Scrapjets and Shokk Dragstas to have the option for mortal wounds both in CC and at range?
Scrapjets are good even without the Kustom Job, fielding 3+ of them is a solid option anyway. SJD is also a good buggy, with a different role. Choosing which ones do you want and in what numbers is entirely subjective. For example my go to is 2-3 Scrapjets (typically without the kustom job), one KBB and 0-1 SJD in the most recent games I played.
I will be playing a game with 3 killtanks as soon as I can, as it's the only way I ge tto use my kustom battlefortresses these days! I could even push to 4 of them, but to field a fifth I'd be using my looted bastion, which has significantly more guns than a killtank. I suppose the sheer volume could represent a gigashoota, but I'd have to hide the deathstrike missile... ...yeah, the looted bastion's more of a kustom stompa.
That said, kustom stompa + 4 killtanks comes in at 1900 points... might be able to squeeze in 100 points of something to get a KFF in there... then again maybe it's best to run 3 killtanks + stompa for the ultimate big-things-bonanza, plus boys inside to take objectives!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Throwing points together, I've got 3 killtanks and a kustom stompa which totals 1675pts. Now I'm trying to work out the best combination of support & klan to get the most out of them;
KFF mek - obvious support for a 5++ and backup healing if riggers fail, which is unlikely.
Weirdboy plus evil suns for visions in the smoke for full rerolls, which is good until the weirdboy dies, then evil suns is largely worthless due to heavy weapons and no need for extra speed.
Bad moons for rerolling 1's all the time, which is an obvious choice for this many dice!
Snakebites for 6+++ on an awful lot of wounds with decent saves, making them 1/6 more durable. married with the KFF this is a good choice, I think.
Deathskulls is a bit meh, 6++ is good but we can do 5++ with KFF or 6+++ with snakebites. Rerolling one dice will only help in damage phase, with this many dice involved!
Bloodaxe, with ranged weapons galore the cover over 18" could be useful. Also falling back & shooting or charging would make the most of the killtanks ram abilities. Hang back until imminent death, then charge forward and hope for explodes.
Freebootas for +1 to hit across the board if they kill a unit, which they should do. Best bet is probably to use a killtank to pick on a weak unit, then unload the kustom stompa at +1 to hit.
Currently I'm undecided between bad moons for easy rerolls, freebootas for army-wide firepower boost, snakebites for durability or bloodaxe for using the full utility of the killtanks. Such a shame visions in the smoke is klan locked, I'd love to run visions + freebootas for 4+ rerolling.
If you can only fit one KFF big mek, how do you intend to find room for all your models given that its only 9 inches around him? Both the killtank and stompas are quite large and the entire thing has to be covered to get cover. at best i can see room for 3 Kill tanks but no Kustom stompa.
Maybe all 4 units can fit, but thats without assuming there is terrain, which there is, which will mean in most cases i dont think the KFF will be able to help out your 3 Killtanks and kustom stompa. there will always be one or maybe even two left out i think.
Your deathskulls rerolls could still help you with hitting when you use the big guns that have few attacks.
gungo wrote: There really isn’t a whole lot of point to using zhardsnark anyway as the warboss on bike is better with the biggest boss strat... even moreso with the killa klaw.
Well, Zhad may be an option if we get the same 0-1 warboss limitation that SM got for their captains and we'd want to field two mobile characters. Zhad is still way superior than a wartrike and 10pts cheaper. Locked to Evil Sunz though, which is the main reasosn I'll never play it.
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Bonde wrote: Is the Korkscrew Kustom job good enough to field multiple Scrapjets? Or would it be better to field a mix of Scrapjets and Shokk Dragstas to have the option for mortal wounds both in CC and at range?
Scrapjets are good even without the Kustom Job, fielding 3+ of them is a solid option anyway. SJD is also a good buggy, with a different role. Choosing which ones do you want and in what numbers is entirely subjective. For example my go to is 2-3 Scrapjets (typically without the kustom job), one KBB and 0-1 SJD in the most recent games I played.
I have settled on a duo of scrapjets for now. The KBB seems a bit lackluste with the STR 4 and AP 0 on the burnas. It doesn't even ignore cover. Only the main gun has potential for taking down a couple of marines or Necrons.
Beardedragon wrote: If you can only fit one KFF big mek, how do you intend to find room for all your models given that its only 9 inches around him? Both the killtank and stompas are quite large and the entire thing has to be covered to get cover. at best i can see room for 3 Kill tanks but no Kustom stompa.
Maybe all 4 units can fit, but thats without assuming there is terrain, which there is, which will mean in most cases i dont think the KFF will be able to help out your 3 Killtanks and kustom stompa. there will always be one or maybe even two left out i think.
Your deathskulls rerolls could still help you with hitting when you use the big guns that have few attacks.
I would look to use the stratagem for one turn to get an 18" KFF, so that would give me 1 turn of cover.
Then I'd probably embark on the stompa and have that as my focus.
IS a supreme command detachment still a thing? The one with lots of HQ's? could be a way to get multiple KFF's, one per tank.
I have settled on a duo of scrapjets for now. The KBB seems a bit lackluste with the STR 4 and AP 0 on the burnas. It doesn't even ignore cover. Only the main gun has potential for taking down a couple of marines or Necrons.
The KBB is 20pts cheaper, has a nice anti primaris main weapon and a very nice stratagem that turns the burnas into Skorchas (10'' Assault3 S5 AP-1 on EACH burna). Check out Saga of the Beast for that.
I just want to confirm that the warlord trait "kunnin but brutal" wouldn't allow the Ork player to put a unit into strategic reserve (either by using an inherent deep strike ability or by paying the cp)
CaptainO wrote: I just want to confirm that the warlord trait "kunnin but brutal" wouldn't allow the Ork player to put a unit into strategic reserve (either by using an inherent deep strike ability or by paying the cp)
I don't think so, you have to declare this before deployment so it wouldn't work. I'm not sure if it lets you get out of or into transports either. If it does, that could be a real screwer for your opponent. It's a trait I keep meaning to try out, to redeploy some units and screw over my opponents deployment.
Referring to my previous post on the stompa+killtank, I've now written off freebootas as an option, as the kill tanks have +1 to hit when in half range anyway, so they are largely immune to the effect. It might work (and will help their twin big shoota, woo!)but it's now between bad moons for offence and snakebites for defence. 6+++>6++ on big models, so deffskulls is out. Evil suns only matters while a weirdboy is alive to cast visions, which won't be long once your opponent realises what he's up to.
List I've made miraculously fits into 1750pts, which will make it even more dangerous as the opponent will have less anti-tank!
Mek is going to have Kunnin' but Brutal, methinks, to redeploy D3 of them after my opponent has set to cowering in an opposite corner.
KFF is going to stand in the middle (unless there are snipers) and pop Force Field Projekta for a 37.5" bubble of 5++. If there are snipers he's hopping straight into the stompa and staying there!
the list has 112 T8 3+ wounds to take down, and most importantly - my shooting never degrades, so the kustom stompa (oh no, he's slower now, dakka dakka dakka!) will operate at full capacity until it explodes.
Objectives? I'll park a stompa on one, which will prevent anyone from getting within 3" of it, and try the same with the killtanks, positioning them to force people to make long moves around them in order to take objectives. And now I'm thinking of Bloodaxes again, to keep the guns shooting when people inevitably charge me to claim objectives... ...I've got some more thinkin' to do here...
I expect my first 2 turns will unleash a withering amount of dakka, so with target priority I can hope to control the battlefield by turn 3. We shall see.
Going up to 2k points I'd be looking at another KFF, and then boys for objective control.
CaptainO wrote: I just want to confirm that the warlord trait "kunnin but brutal" wouldn't allow the Ork player to put a unit into strategic reserve (either by using an inherent deep strike ability or by paying the cp)
Reserves must be declared way before deployment starts. You should check the ruleset your are running (the part right before the missions) to not do it wrong. There are quite a few things which have changed in sequence from 8th.
CaptainO wrote: I just want to confirm that the warlord trait "kunnin but brutal" wouldn't allow the Ork player to put a unit into strategic reserve (either by using an inherent deep strike ability or by paying the cp)
Reserves must be declared way before deployment starts. You should check the ruleset your are running (the part right before the missions) to not do it wrong. There are quite a few things which have changed in sequence from 8th.
Well we also have an exception to this rule now -- the Deceiver lets you do this with a similar type of ability.
CaptainO wrote: I just want to confirm that the warlord trait "kunnin but brutal" wouldn't allow the Ork player to put a unit into strategic reserve (either by using an inherent deep strike ability or by paying the cp)
Reserves must be declared way before deployment starts. You should check the ruleset your are running (the part right before the missions) to not do it wrong. There are quite a few things which have changed in sequence from 8th.
Well we also have an exception to this rule now -- the Deceiver lets you do this with a similar type of ability.
For no CP even.
That's specifically spelled out in datasheet though. Does kunning but brutal have similar wording?
gungo wrote: I haven’t seen good pictures of the mek dread profile how did they Redo it’s feel no pain ability
It's just the Ramshackle rule from the Trukk ported over to them, so they no longer have a pseudo 5+ FNP that degrades, they get a 6+ save to reduce damage to 1.
It was a 4+ fnp that degraded
So this is a pretty big hit.
They did go down close to 100 points, so they are much easier to include in a list now. However they lost access to the KFF, most likely because it was never part of the model.
Ouch the kff is gone too? What’s the entire point of the meka dread.. also the meka dread body had a kff on it.
On a kind of random topic, thinking about how they could rework Orks to be more interesting for 9th (my opinion of course), it’d be kinda awesome if WAAAGH! became an army rule, not just a Warboss thing. It’s something that ripples through the army, chain links between units or board wide. Obviously you’d need your boss to start it, but it would be cool if it wasn’t just a Warboss rule that affected some nearby units, but was a much bigger, more interesting rule that was more akin to a fully fledged army mechanic.
Yeah I've been saying that for a while now, I'd like it more like Da Big Waaagh! In Orruk Warclans but tweaked for 40k. We have quite a few units that dont really benefit from the Waaagh! As it stands which is pretty stupid. Lootas, flashgitz, all the planes, stuff that general cant or doesnt want to advance and charge.
These type of units should fire more shots or gain an AP. Like the dakkajet back when it first came out, it gained more shots when a waaagh was called.
Tiberius501 wrote: On a kind of random topic, thinking about how they could rework Orks to be more interesting for 9th (my opinion of course), it’d be kinda awesome if WAAAGH! became an army rule, not just a Warboss thing. It’s something that ripples through the army, chain links between units or board wide. Obviously you’d need your boss to start it, but it would be cool if it wasn’t just a Warboss rule that affected some nearby units, but was a much bigger, more interesting rule that was more akin to a fully fledged army mechanic.
What exactly to you want to be more interesting? Outside of a few units that really need help, orks are in a really awesome place right now, and interesting to play to boot - even the horde archetype I usually dislike can be played with as little as 90 skarboyz. If orks currently aren't providing you with what you like, there is little chance that they ever will.
Yeah i'd agree with Jidmah, orks are for the most part in a good place.
Not being the ultimate faction people are tailoring to beat doesnt mean we arent good.
Nobz becoming Troops, some proper HQ releases, and a few point tweaks is really all we need. Flash gitz stats arent bad, their cost is for example.
I disagree with that Jid, I dont find orks to be in an awesome place. The weapons are pretty lacklustre, the Clans arent great, why would you ever go Bad Moons, Blood Axes or Snakebites? Atleast in the Marine and Necrons codex there is viability in most of the sub factions. Our relics are pretty dull and we are generally over priced.
If the army was awesome youd see a lot of playstyles and units that are viable. Unless your forced too what incentive is there to take big shootas or rokkits on the units that can take them? Why take a powerklaw when a killsaw is better and the same cost? Why take lootas, burnas, blitza-bommers, BDSW, RTSB, DKWT, foot nobz, etc.
I fell out of love with Orks near the tail end of 8th because they just felt uninspired and whatever they could do someone else did better and most likely more cheaper and efficiently.
All I want is our guns to have more bite to them, boys to actually have some punch and not rely on them being Goffs, clans to be brought up in line with other later gen codexes and more thought put into our army style and rules.
If they can make sweeping changes like they did to Ironjaws in the Orruk Warclans battletome, I'm sure they can do it to 40k Orks too. I dont think that's a little chance, looking from the Space Marine and Necron codex changes.
Tiberius501 wrote: On a kind of random topic, thinking about how they could rework Orks to be more interesting for 9th (my opinion of course), it’d be kinda awesome if WAAAGH! became an army rule, not just a Warboss thing. It’s something that ripples through the army, chain links between units or board wide. Obviously you’d need your boss to start it, but it would be cool if it wasn’t just a Warboss rule that affected some nearby units, but was a much bigger, more interesting rule that was more akin to a fully fledged army mechanic.
What exactly to you want to be more interesting? Outside of a few units that really need help, orks are in a really awesome place right now, and interesting to play to boot - even the horde archetype I usually dislike can be played with as little as 90 skarboyz. If orks currently aren't providing you with what you like, there is little chance that they ever will.
Agreed. Not sure what our equivalent of doctrines/protocols would be, I wouldn't be against a WAAAGH! point system of some type, but it shouldn't be an army defining ability, more of a side-bonus at most. The last thing I want is to become like Space Marines where they have so many bespoke rules stacked on top of each other that they have to condense most of them under one heading because it takes up too much space.
deffrekka wrote: I disagree with that Jid, I dont find orks to be in an awesome place. The weapons are pretty lacklustre, the Clans arent great, why would you ever go Bad Moons, Blood Axes or Snakebites? Atleast in the Marine and Necrons codex there is viability in most of the sub factions. Our relics are pretty dull and we are generally over priced.
If the army was awesome youd see a lot of playstyles and units that are viable. Unless your forced too what incentive is there to take big shootas or rokkits on the units that can take them? Why take a powerklaw when a killsaw is better and the same cost? Why take lootas, burnas, blitza-bommers, BDSW, RTSB, DKWT, foot nobz, etc.
I fell out of love with Orks near the tail end of 8th because they just felt uninspired and whatever they could do someone else did better and most likely more cheaper and efficiently.
All I want is our guns to have more bite to them, boys to actually have some punch and not rely on them being Goffs, clans to be brought up in line with other later gen codexes and more thought put into our army style and rules.
I agree that most of those things should change, but those issues are just regular issues that every army experiences, even space marines. We know some of these will be addressed for sure - PK and Killsaw will change, relics and cultures will most likely be reworked like we saw for necrons.
Two things I disagree with though - our guns have plenty of bite, it has never been as easy for me to gun my opponents off the table as it has now. Shootas and big shootas need help, but especially the buggies and the units released in 7th bring some serious dakka to the table.
The other is that we actually are seeing many play styles and viable units. Buggies might not be trashing tournaments anymore, but they are still very viable build. Both the buggies and the Thrakka horde have a relatively cheap core and we see tons of permutations around that core, from deffwing to walker hordes to trukk boy spam. Few armies looking as similar as they did in 8th. Even in the golden age of 5th, we didn't have as many choices seeing regular play.
Therefore I would very much not want orks to get thrown out with the bathwater, but rather have them specifically address the issues at hand.
As for an army ability akin to doctrines? I would love something that would represent the Waaagh! gathering more and momentum, making orks faster and more powerful as the game goes on.
ordinarily i would say i dont see other armies getting something akin to doctrines but necrons got protocols and theyre functionally the same thing, just nowhere near as ridiculous or free.
For orks i really dont see how they would do such a thing. Orks arent known for tactical prowess, except for Thrakka.
Its a big part of the fluff yet in the tabletop game its.. non existent.
Also i dont understand why the Warboss on warbike got the speedwaagh ability? Hes just going to compete with the Deffkilla wartrike, and out competes it even.
I dont understand why i should buy a deffkilla wartrike at this point.
At least the warboss on warbike with his regular Waaagh! ability made him unique.
deffrekka wrote: I disagree with that Jid, I dont find orks to be in an awesome place. The weapons are pretty lacklustre, the Clans arent great, why would you ever go Bad Moons, Blood Axes or Snakebites? Atleast in the Marine and Necrons codex there is viability in most of the sub factions. Our relics are pretty dull and we are generally over priced.
If the army was awesome youd see a lot of playstyles and units that are viable. Unless your forced too what incentive is there to take big shootas or rokkits on the units that can take them? Why take a powerklaw when a killsaw is better and the same cost? Why take lootas, burnas, blitza-bommers, BDSW, RTSB, DKWT, foot nobz, etc.
I fell out of love with Orks near the tail end of 8th because they just felt uninspired and whatever they could do someone else did better and most likely more cheaper and efficiently.
All I want is our guns to have more bite to them, boys to actually have some punch and not rely on them being Goffs, clans to be brought up in line with other later gen codexes and more thought put into our army style and rules.
I agree that most of those things should change, but those issues are just regular issues that every army experiences, even space marines. We know some of these will be addressed for sure - PK and Killsaw will change, relics and cultures will most likely be reworked like we saw for necrons.
Two things I disagree with though - our guns have plenty of bite, it has never been as easy for me to gun my opponents off the table as it has now. Shootas and big shootas need help, but especially the buggies and the units released in 7th bring some serious dakka to the table.
The other is that we actually are seeing many play styles and viable units. Buggies might not be trashing tournaments anymore, but they are still very viable build. Both the buggies and the Thrakka horde have a relatively cheap core and we see tons of permutations around that core, from deffwing to walker hordes to trukk boy spam. Few armies looking as similar as they did in 8th. Even in the golden age of 5th, we didn't have as many choices seeing regular play.
Therefore I would very much not want orks to get thrown out with the bathwater, but rather have them specifically address the issues at hand.
As for an army ability akin to doctrines? I would love something that would represent the Waaagh! gathering more and momentum, making orks faster and more powerful as the game goes on.
Yeah totally! I'd be happy with a Sisters tier codex, nothing game breaking but solid. And I love the SJD and the MTSJ but the other buggies fall short for me, i had this convo on r/orks and some of the buggies just have an identity crisis. Why give buggies grot blastas and stikkbombs when they wont really use them or cant after advancing and some time you dont even see the point in these weapons anyway. Things like giving orks proper flamers, and the KBB4d6 shots. I dont think that's broken, hell let the KBB fire its burna exhausts as a melee profile and let the BDSW drop burna bottles in melee in addition to the shooting phase.
Weapons like deffguns and dakkaguns to me feel flat, I think dakkaguns should personally be like boomstikks and get the BS improvements at close range when they are throwing out that much dakka, and I'd like to see deffguns more like the obliterators guns. You have lascannons, fusion blasters, and slug throwing weapons so they shouldnt just be str 7 ap 1 damage 2, maybe even let the mek or big mek tinker with them to give them a stat boost in the command phase. The only change I'd like on normal shootas is probably assault 3. The kustom mega blasta and kustom mega slugga I think need an extra shot. Again it wouldnt break the models using them, if a mega kannon gets d6 and a mega Zappa gets 3d3 I dont think 2 shots for the blasta and slugga is meta breaking. Big shootas I have no idea what to do with them, they used to be our equivalent to heavy bolters but they are now 2 damage and they actually have an AP so it's like what can you do with them that makes them worthwhile to take? 4 shots, 5? AP1? A suppression mechanic like the Skystalkers have from admech with the strat?
I fully agree with Waaagh being a rolling benefit, I'd also like to see DDD and Goffs just have exploding 6s gen and additional hit.
Like we pay 2CP to have 5s and 6s gen additional hit rolls, whilst other armies have 1/2CP strats to straight up fire again.... I'd rather have DDD be more consistent and again, I dont think it will break the game. Maybe with Bad Moons it could be a bit oppressive but that was a problem in 8th with lootas anyway and I'd like to see the Moon gits taken into a new direction.
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Vineheart01 wrote: ordinarily i would say i dont see other armies getting something akin to doctrines but necrons got protocols and theyre functionally the same thing, just nowhere near as ridiculous or free.
For orks i really dont see how they would do such a thing. Orks arent known for tactical prowess, except for Thrakka.
Well with Orks, the Waaagh! Energy increases in tempo driving the orks to greater acts of violence and ferocity. In the 5th ed rulebook there is a 2 page ork story about a warboss charging across an ice lake to some valhallans and then as the orks get closer the energy builds up driving the orks into a frenzy, the bosses pet weirdboy cause an avalanche to bury the artillery under snow and rock. I believe it was Waaagh! Gragnatz. And the same type of increasing wave is seen in the evil sunz rising book and it literally causes the orks in that story to have a head ache that drives them to greater acts of slaughter as literally they descend into a red haze. The mek boss wasnt much for fighting but when he got hit with waaagh! Fever he joined in with the rest of the boys.
I think orks deserve more of a turn based mechanic than say necrons with their protocols and marines with doctrines as it's always been In the ork lore. A warboss should be the focal point of the waaagh not the person who gives it out as a just an advance and charge
Round 1: Salamanders (27th place): Surprise Surprise was running 2 fully decked out Multi-melta dev squads, plasma inceptors and bladeguard. He did bring 10 Aggressors but with flamestorm gauntlets so they were probably easy pickings for the Smasha guns the ork brought. Basically, remove the Aggressors and the leftovers can't kill orkz fast enough to do much of anything.
Round 2: Chaos Marines (22nd place): Don't know why, but dude brought over 600pts of noise Marines to the game. List finished out with Khorne Zerkers in a rhino rush. Again, fairly easy prey for Smasha Gunz and once out of their tin cans, Zerkers tend to die pretty easily.
Round 3: White Scars (10th Place): 500pts tied up in Plasma Inceptors. Another 270 in outriders and another 110 in LS Storms. Blade Guard made another large appearance here as well (350pts). So yet another list built towards dealing with tough infantry that is mostly wasted against throw away Boyz units.
Round 4: Skitarii (12th place): Guy brought host of D2+ weaponry (Go figure) most notably he brought 450pts of Skorpius Disintegrator and 325pts of Ironstrider Ballistarii. The most anti-infantry weapons he had at range were a bunch of Cognis heavy stubbers.
Finally Round 5: Nuns with Guns (4th Place): And the closest game he came to losing (won by 5pts) So why did he almost lose this one? My guess? Because dude brought not 1, not 2 but 3 units of Mortifiers (720pts) which came with 24 heavy Bolters. Thats 32 dead orkz a turn on Average. My guess is he lost because he also brought about 600pts of exorcists and basically only had 5 Troop models. (not exaggerating) so holding objectives would have been easy, but costly.
2nd and 3rd place Lost against 8th and 9th place respectively (Space puppies and Crons). Both lists heavily favored anti-elite weapons. Either in the form of multi damage or -AP weaponry. The SW list lacked basically any ranged firepower or horde clearing abilities besides piling into CC and hoping for the best, while the Necron list was also a CC oriented Mutli dmg/AP list which featured no less than 15 Wraiths, 9 Skorpek destroyers and 2 Spiders and again, weirdly, only 5 troops total (immortals).
Basically its a regurgitation of my earlier hypothesis. Space Marines are a victim of their own success. Tournament lists are bringing a plethora of anti-elite weaponry and basically have nothing to deal with Ork Hordes. Even the Battle Sisters army is almost exclusively anti-elite. The difference is the player brought a plethora of anti-elite in the form of Heavy Bolters which are upgraded to 2D now, which is most likely going to be the most effective weapon in my opinion thanks to his relatively high rate of fire and ability to kill elites at the same time.
Also Side note: 2 other ork players were at the event, they finished 23rd and 24th respectively. One was a weird mix of Burna bommers, grots, battlewagons and tankbustas The other list was another amalgamation of random ork units with no real focus. 60 boyz, 20 grots (2 units) 2 min units of kommandos, a 10 man unit of Tankbustas, 2 Boomdakka snazz wagonz, 4 mek guns (3 smasha 1 traktor), a pair of Burna bommers and a Trukk (probably for Tankbustas).
So neither list did good at all (2 wins each) but that is because they split their forces instead of going all in on one aspect. The 2nd list in particular is just awful. Plenty of targets for Anti-horde guns while at the same time providing more than enough targets for dedicated anti-vehicle weapons. I can't imagine those Bommers survived long with how much melta and other anti-vehicle weaponry was floating around.
Though what would they make while not stepping on the toes of Dark Eldar's progressive Power From Pain mechanic? And the Marine one for that matter. If everyone simply gets a progressive turn based mechanic it would make things feel rather bland. I do still think that a kill based mechanic focused around the Warboss would be more orkish and unique to the faction.
Also Jidmah, I do agree orkz are in a good place, but not as a faction, only in competitive scene, and only if you are running horde with Ghaz and Goffs. As I predicted, Buggies are basically dead, not because they aren't a good option in and of themselves, but because everyone is list tailoring to face off against SM in a tournament. So multi-dmg good AP weapons are EVERYWHERE. Even without the Melta spam going on, people are bringing a plethora of Heavy Bolters and other ranged weaponry that can deal multi-dmg. Buggies are dead to this because they aren't all that tough (T6) and with a 4+ save.
I think the faction as a whole needs a lot of work if we are going to be able to have more then a single list in the competitive scene. And worse yet, that list isn't even good on its own, its just a hard counter to the current meta.
Not shocking, but good deep dive. Yeah, boy tide is an anti meta choice.
I think at its core, it's not a strong list, as any divergence from killing marines will lay waste how bad boys are. But it can steal wins as long as marines are dominant.
I'll still be playing largely mech in my home games, as that's actually fun to play.
Edit: think of it this way.
People are teching into killing marines and they are *still* winning.
I guarantee you, if you built to kill a tide / gaunt carpet, these lists would bottom out immediately.
For the biker boss, is Brutal but Kunnin still the go to warlord trait? With the base T7, I think ard as nails might be a good choice since it forces so many weapons to need a higher wound roll
Single bikerboss i could see it, but if you keep Brutal but Kunnin on the killsaw one you have 2 flat3 damage melee monsters on fast wheelz instead of just 1.
Only 1 will have an invul, but not that big a deal just dont send him towards something that can punch back reliably.
I would probably try to use the "Follow me ladz!" trait, simply to make both vehicles and infantry charge after an advance, given that he can only make vehicles charge after advances.
Unless you run ghaz next to him or another regular warboss.
Oddly i dont fully understand the CP requirement. it says it takes 1 CP to take the trait, yet it also gives you 1 CP additional CP.
So it takes one, and gives one. whats the point i wonder.
I think some Ork stuff is in a good place, but the codex is pretty badly internally balanced and needs to be fixed. Killa Kanz and normal Nobz, for example.
But mainly a cool WAAAGH! mechanic isn’t to make the army stronger, but to make it more fun and interesting, ans to feel more Orky.
Also I feel like I get slaughtered playing Orks every time I play them. Maybe I’m playing them wrong but I can barely kill a few models while my army is being demolished each turn. I guess I do fight Marines a lot, but it’s a shame that I have to just agree to lose when fighting them, rather than look forward to a close game.
Beardedragon wrote: I would probably try to use the "Follow me ladz!" trait, simply to make both vehicles and infantry charge after an advance, given that he can only make vehicles charge after advances.
Unless you run ghaz next to him or another regular warboss.
Oddly i dont fully understand the CP requirement. it says it takes 1 CP to take the trait, yet it also gives you 1 CP additional CP.
So it takes one, and gives one. whats the point i wonder.
Not sure what you're talking about as far as WL traits go, since they don't intrinsically cost CP to take. Only more recent books like Necrons/SM have the strat that let's them give another character a WL trait for 1 CP. For us we only get one, so you always get a net gain of 1CP from Follow Me Ladz. Most of the time it's combined with either the Biggest Boss or the Kleverest Boss which is NOT a warlord trait, but also costs 1CP.
Beardedragon wrote: I would probably try to use the "Follow me ladz!" trait, simply to make both vehicles and infantry charge after an advance, given that he can only make vehicles charge after advances.
Unless you run ghaz next to him or another regular warboss.
Oddly i dont fully understand the CP requirement. it says it takes 1 CP to take the trait, yet it also gives you 1 CP additional CP.
So it takes one, and gives one. whats the point i wonder.
Not sure what you're talking about as far as WL traits go, since they don't intrinsically cost CP to take. Only more recent books like Necrons/SM have the strat that let's them give another character a WL trait for 1 CP. For us we only get one, so you always get a net gain of 1CP from Follow Me Ladz. Most of the time it's combined with either the Biggest Boss or the Kleverest Boss which is NOT a warlord trait, but also costs 1CP.
i always only saw follow me ladz as the only warlord trait for orks that cost CP yet still gained you one, not the rest. I think it must have been a battlescribe bug because thats where i saw it.
I always thought it was odd, but i also never used it so yea.
I also always use Follow Me Ladz, even on a Warboss. Its +1CP and expanded aura are useful for the entire game, and a deathskull boss doesn't need the re-rolls of Brutal But Kunning. Re-deployment could be useful, but my orks have always been brutal oriented, not very kunning, so I guess Kunning but Brutal doesn't match my style of playing.
Round 1: Salamanders (27th place): Surprise Surprise was running 2 fully decked out Multi-melta dev squads, plasma inceptors and bladeguard. He did bring 10 Aggressors but with flamestorm gauntlets so they were probably easy pickings for the Smasha guns the ork brought. Basically, remove the Aggressors and the leftovers can't kill orkz fast enough to do much of anything.
Round 2: Chaos Marines (22nd place): Don't know why, but dude brought over 600pts of noise Marines to the game. List finished out with Khorne Zerkers in a rhino rush. Again, fairly easy prey for Smasha Gunz and once out of their tin cans, Zerkers tend to die pretty easily.
Round 3: White Scars (10th Place): 500pts tied up in Plasma Inceptors. Another 270 in outriders and another 110 in LS Storms. Blade Guard made another large appearance here as well (350pts). So yet another list built towards dealing with tough infantry that is mostly wasted against throw away Boyz units.
Round 4: Skitarii (12th place): Guy brought host of D2+ weaponry (Go figure) most notably he brought 450pts of Skorpius Disintegrator and 325pts of Ironstrider Ballistarii. The most anti-infantry weapons he had at range were a bunch of Cognis heavy stubbers.
Finally Round 5: Nuns with Guns (4th Place): And the closest game he came to losing (won by 5pts) So why did he almost lose this one? My guess? Because dude brought not 1, not 2 but 3 units of Mortifiers (720pts) which came with 24 heavy Bolters. Thats 32 dead orkz a turn on Average. My guess is he lost because he also brought about 600pts of exorcists and basically only had 5 Troop models. (not exaggerating) so holding objectives would have been easy, but costly.
2nd and 3rd place Lost against 8th and 9th place respectively (Space puppies and Crons). Both lists heavily favored anti-elite weapons. Either in the form of multi damage or -AP weaponry. The SW list lacked basically any ranged firepower or horde clearing abilities besides piling into CC and hoping for the best, while the Necron list was also a CC oriented Mutli dmg/AP list which featured no less than 15 Wraiths, 9 Skorpek destroyers and 2 Spiders and again, weirdly, only 5 troops total (immortals).
Basically its a regurgitation of my earlier hypothesis. Space Marines are a victim of their own success. Tournament lists are bringing a plethora of anti-elite weaponry and basically have nothing to deal with Ork Hordes. Even the Battle Sisters army is almost exclusively anti-elite. The difference is the player brought a plethora of anti-elite in the form of Heavy Bolters which are upgraded to 2D now, which is most likely going to be the most effective weapon in my opinion thanks to his relatively high rate of fire and ability to kill elites at the same time.
Also Side note: 2 other ork players were at the event, they finished 23rd and 24th respectively. One was a weird mix of Burna bommers, grots, battlewagons and tankbustas The other list was another amalgamation of random ork units with no real focus. 60 boyz, 20 grots (2 units) 2 min units of kommandos, a 10 man unit of Tankbustas, 2 Boomdakka snazz wagonz, 4 mek guns (3 smasha 1 traktor), a pair of Burna bommers and a Trukk (probably for Tankbustas).
So neither list did good at all (2 wins each) but that is because they split their forces instead of going all in on one aspect. The 2nd list in particular is just awful. Plenty of targets for Anti-horde guns while at the same time providing more than enough targets for dedicated anti-vehicle weapons. I can't imagine those Bommers survived long with how much melta and other anti-vehicle weaponry was floating around.
With the exception of the sister list, which was skew with that many mortifiers but the amount of bodies and firepower is typically the same one in my meta, all the other lists were too anti elite-tank oriented to be realistic in a non tournament environment. I've always thought that competitive orks are in a much better spot than casual ones. Here every opponent I face can wipe 30-45 boyz per turn but no one can 1-shot a knight instead or kill hundreds of points of primaris in un turn.
SemperMortis wrote: Also Jidmah, I do agree orkz are in a good place, but not as a faction, only in competitive scene, and only if you are running horde with Ghaz and Goffs. As I predicted, Buggies are basically dead, not because they aren't a good option in and of themselves, but because everyone is list tailoring to face off against SM in a tournament. So multi-dmg good AP weapons are EVERYWHERE. Even without the Melta spam going on, people are bringing a plethora of Heavy Bolters and other ranged weaponry that can deal multi-dmg. Buggies are dead to this because they aren't all that tough (T6) and with a 4+ save.
I think the faction as a whole needs a lot of work if we are going to be able to have more then a single list in the competitive scene. And worse yet, that list isn't even good on its own, its just a hard counter to the current meta.
I doubt that top competitive games will ever have room for more than one archetype. I have quite some experience with competitive RTS gaming, MtG, MoBa and video-game rpgs like WoW or diablo in the past and rarely, if ever, you had more than one optimal build for any given faction, archetype, skilltree or class. Expecting two or three variants of each army showing up in the top4 of grand tournaments simply isn't realistic by any means.
That said, buggies are still a very powerful build - if you read goonhammer's statistical analysis on secondaries, giving up 15 VP of one secondary is by no means a guaranteed loss. If you aren't facing cutting edge things like exalted keeper spam or immortal go karts you still can stand a good chance of winning. The main issue IMO is that they can't kill primaris fast enough and are outrun by slanesh daemons and harlequins.
gungo wrote: I haven’t seen good pictures of the mek dread profile how did they Redo it’s feel no pain ability
It's just the Ramshackle rule from the Trukk ported over to them, so they no longer have a pseudo 5+ FNP that degrades, they get a 6+ save to reduce damage to 1.
It was a 4+ fnp that degraded
So this is a pretty big hit.
They did go down close to 100 points, so they are much easier to include in a list now. However they lost access to the KFF, most likely because it was never part of the model.
Ouch the kff is gone too? What’s the entire point of the meka dread.. also the meka dread body had a kff on it.
I just checked the assembly manual for my Meka Dread, and actually it is not modelled with a KFF. It does have an exposed engine and exhaust though.
So how does one play Orks? I tend to get slaughtered when I play them and have been waiting for their 9th book but if peeps think they’re good atm I may need to learn how to play them. I use stuff like Nobz, Mek Gunz, boyz, Deff Dreads. But it all ends up a bit meh, besides the Mek Gunz which try their best to carry my force through lol.
Tiberius501 wrote: So how does one play Orks? I tend to get slaughtered when I play them and have been waiting for their 9th book but if peeps think they’re good atm I may need to learn how to play them. I use stuff like Nobz, Mek Gunz, boyz, Deff Dreads. But it all ends up a bit meh, besides the Mek Gunz which try their best to carry my force through lol.
What exactly do you have available? What kinds of armies are you facing? I'm sure we can help you to improve your winning quota
Tiberius501 wrote: So how does one play Orks? I tend to get slaughtered when I play them and have been waiting for their 9th book but if peeps think they’re good atm I may need to learn how to play them. I use stuff like Nobz, Mek Gunz, boyz, Deff Dreads. But it all ends up a bit meh, besides the Mek Gunz which try their best to carry my force through lol.
Generally the best advice is to pick a theme and stick to it - mech or infantry, but to avoid mixing or you'll just give your opponent every opportunity to use their weapons to maximum capacity.
Check out the first post, Jidmah does a good job keeping it up to date with each units strengths etc.
What is your usual approach with your units? What army list do you enjoy playing?
Ork strengths tend toward:
- Cheap, independent units (buggies)
- Cheapish hordes of boys to flood objectives
- Fast-hitting units (wartrke/bkerboss + anything fast can generally pull of turn 1 charges)
Mek Guns tend to fit into any list as they are too tough for basic anti-infantry guns to kill efficiently, and too weak for anti-tank guns to kill efficiently either. Smasha guns are generally considered the best option, but Kustom Mega Kannons and Bubblechukkas work pretty well too (I like bubblechukkas, they do well if facing large units). Smasha guns are good at anti vehicle, but absolutely shine when it comes to anti-elite. Any 3 wound T5-6 infantry with good saves and no invulns can kiss their behinds goodbye. Also effective vs the primaris snipers with 2+ saves from cover, and anything which confers -1 to wound, like necron destroyers with stratagem.
gungo wrote: I haven’t seen good pictures of the mek dread profile how did they Redo it’s feel no pain ability
It's just the Ramshackle rule from the Trukk ported over to them, so they no longer have a pseudo 5+ FNP that degrades, they get a 6+ save to reduce damage to 1.
It was a 4+ fnp that degraded
So this is a pretty big hit.
They did go down close to 100 points, so they are much easier to include in a list now. However they lost access to the KFF, most likely because it was never part of the model.
Ouch the kff is gone too? What’s the entire point of the meka dread.. also the meka dread body had a kff on it.
I just checked the assembly manual for my Meka Dread, and actually it is not modelled with a KFF. It does have an exposed engine and exhaust though.
right side of the body above the servo arm has the kff antenna
1. Oversaturate enemy on one type of targets. Either infantry, or vehicles, not both exept few SMG in infantry or few kommandos in vehicle list.
2. Have enough dakka to kill a knight a turn. Twice. The same with some horde units (check the discuss about this about 10 pages back).
3. Be mobile. Either via Da Jump and other deepstrikes, or because of the fast wheels. You need to control the board, you need to get there.
4. Have a plan with secondaries and custom fit your army to it = kommandos for deploy fungus etc., skip the wierdboy to be ready to abhorn the witch...
5. Redundancy. Your plan can' t be in ruins, if you lost one unit.
6. Survive go second. This is crucial. KFF, right terrain and deploy, something in DS, something in transport.
7. Copy and modify. Copy the succesful list and then improve your acordingly. Jidmah usualy maintain a collection of intereseting lists on the first page, isn' t? Or check meta analysis on goonhammer for last few months.
Try to prioritize your ways of scoring/denying points, maybe you're underestimating this mechanics.
Learn what you need to kill/tarpit/cripple as fast as possible, what you can ignore, what you must protect and what you can sacrifice.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tomsug wrote: Tiberius - my simple tips how to start:
2. Have enough dakka to kill a knight a turn. Twice. The same with some horde units (check the discuss about this about 10 pages back).
3. Be mobile. Either via Da Jump and other deepstrikes, or because of the fast wheels. You need to control the board, you need to get there.
Those are not absolutes. Some tournament winning lists can't either 1-shot a knight (let alone two) or delete cheap 45+ infantries in one turn. Slow Goffs greentides could work perfectly with all footslogging dudes with no Da Jump or Tellyporta.
Ah thanks for all the replies. This may change your answers, but I typically play at around 1k points - 1.5k, and then sometimes we do big 2k games.
All the Orkies I have right now are:
-Warboss in Mega Armour (I know it’s legends, our group don’t mind using them)
- Weirdboy
- Big Mek in Mega Armour
- 5x Mega Nobz
- 15x Nobz
- 10x Flash Gitz
- 2x Deff Dreads
- 1x Bonebreaka
- 3x Mek Gunz
- 30x Boyz (Nob, 19 choppas, 10 Shootas)
- 20x Gretchin
- 1x Trukk (though maybe 2, I can’t find the box though within my massive pile of shame)
Pretty sure that’s all I got atm. It was mainly stuff I like the look of, besides the Gork/Morkanaut, planes and other vehicle goodness.
My main issue is I love the walkers, the vehicles and the hordes haha so I’m not super sure on which thing to focus on, as I also like the look of a few different things in an army.
I play Goffs, though I don’t plan on bringing Ghaz any time soon, I just like the Skarboyz, extra hits on 6’s and also the fluff I’ve been coming up with for my Warboss and his weirdboy’s vision of him beating the Beast (the legitimacy of this vision though is yet to be seen Lol).
Anyway! Can I make something worth using with this miss matched collection of ladz?
Tiberius501 wrote: Ah thanks for all the replies. This may change your answers, but I typically play at around 1k points - 1.5k, and then sometimes we do big 2k games.
All the Orkies I have right now are:
-Warboss in Mega Armour (I know it’s legends, our group don’t mind using them)
- Weirdboy
- Big Mek in Mega Armour
- 5x Mega Nobz
- 15x Nobz
- 10x Flash Gitz
- 2x Deff Dreads
- 1x Bonebreaka
- 3x Mek Gunz
- 30x Boyz (Nob, 19 choppas, 10 Shootas)
- 20x Gretchin
- 1x Trukk (though maybe 2, I can’t find the box though within my massive pile of shame)
Pretty sure that’s all I got atm. It was mainly stuff I like the look of, besides the Gork/Morkanaut, planes and other vehicle goodness.
My main issue is I love the walkers, the vehicles and the hordes haha so I’m not super sure on which thing to focus on, as I also like the look of a few different things in an army.
I play Goffs, though I don’t plan on bringing Ghaz any time soon, I just like the Skarboyz, extra hits on 6’s and also the fluff I’ve been coming up with for my Warboss and his weirdboy’s vision of him beating the Beast (the legitimacy of this vision though is yet to be seen Lol).
Anyway! Can I make something worth using with this miss matched collection of ladz?
That's not a bad start. To give you more options to play games with (and to help improve your list) I would recommend:
another pack of boys, and make them shootas so you have 20 shootas and 20 sluggas. 20 boys is a pretty good amount as it's a small enough investment but a decent unit. 30 boys can be unwieldly, especially if trying to jump. I'd always go for 3 units of 20 boys over 2 units of 30. Plus, 20 fits in a battlewagon.
Others may disagree but I'd add more trukks to your army. You have several units which do well in trukks - Meganobs, Nobs (not brilliant but still better in a trukk than out of one), flashgitz and, some may disagree further, gretchin. Grots in a trukk is a feeble unit which no-one wants to shoot - it's cheap, and weak, and no threat. But get it into the backfield, being sure not to threaten anyone or allow it to be used for charges, and it becomes a little backup unit scoring linebreaker for you every round. Plus grots can repair teleport homers, which is ace.
Gitz in a trukk, I tend to go for getting the trukk into a piece of central terrain turn 1, and then sit there. Preferably on or near an objective. Shot out of the trukk, knowing every git can see if any can, and that from turn 2 your shooting ramps up a lot. They shred heavy infantry, and do remarkably well vs tanks too. When the trukk dies, pop loot it for a 3+ save, improved to 2+ for the cover they are now stood in. I've never run 10, only 7. 7 seems a threshold for being too much of a target, any more and I feel they would never last a second turn. 7 models shooting for 2 turns does more than 10 models shooting once then disappearing. I'm a firm believer that small units slotted into lists can do remarkably large amounts of damage by virtue of being ignored in favour of targeting the bigger units.
HQ - Warboss in Mega Armour w/ da biggest boss
TROOPS
- 20x Slugga Boyz
ELITES
- 4x Meganobz
- Painboy
HEAVY
- Wagon w/ Forktress
- 5x Flashgitz
TRANSPORT
- Trukk
- Trukk
One issue is that the Warboss and painboy will have to ride in one of the trucks with the mega Nobz or gitz, which seems like easy pickings at that point.
So....Megadreads might have sneakily become one of my favorite units...
175pts for a T7 16W 3+sv model that moves 8" and has 6 S14 Ap3 D3+3D melee attacks and 2 12" Assault D6 S5 AP0 flamers. That alone is pretty shwanky, but the real flair is its two rules...
This thing has Ramshackle, and with its durable statline its bound to go off from time to time unlike the stupid Trukk that dies to pokedamage and the one medium gun. It also has Mega Charge, which adds a D6 when charging and discard the lowest.
This thing coupled with 'Ere We Go and Ramming Speed can reliably make a 12" charge.... and even w/o ramming speed has a pretty dang good chance to make a charge out of Tellyporta. These things are freaking FAST! And with the bikerboss having Speedwaaagh, it can adv+charge easily
175pts is totally cheap enough to field a couple of these badboyz and Tellyport them. They have enough attacks to wreck havoc on marine units that actually have numbers, flamers for chaff, and will butcher any vehicles it happens to find. The D3+3 damage means it does not suffer any "lost wounds" from random damage BS against 3/4W targets. The fact that its flamers are AP0 kinda blows but its still 2D6 S5 autohits that feel...totally free based on its price.
You can lose 1 attack to give it a killkannon but honestly its BS5 so unlikely to do anything and also prevents it from advancing, so i'd stick with doubleklaws
@Tiberius501: don't leave your mek gunz home. Painboy isn't a solid option unless you play a green tide. Flash gitz are flat out inferior than mek gunz. You could start with:
Which leaves you with 120-150 points to complete a 1K points list. Maybe 10 boyz and the 5th meganob. Alternatively cut the mek gunz and add 2 dreads: if you are Deathskullz give them a couple of KMBs each and they'll be a good option.
HQ - Warboss in Mega Armour w/ da biggest boss
TROOPS
- 20x Slugga Boyz
ELITES
- 4x Meganobz
- Painboy
HEAVY
- Wagon w/ Forktress
- 5x Flashgitz
TRANSPORT
- Trukk
- Trukk
One issue is that the Warboss and painboy will have to ride in one of the trucks with the mega Nobz or gitz, which seems like easy pickings at that point.
The list doesn't look too bad, but what are your tactics?
flashgits in a trukk want to find a place to park on turn 1, where they are in range of as much as possible and can disembark into cover. If they are coming to you, don't even move.
So that's a wagon and a trukk heading at the enemy on turn 1. If the trukk blows, surviving meganobs can turf out the boys and hop in the wagon to complete thir journey. Boys can move forwards and advance, with the warboss staying out to support them getting a charge.
Only real lack in this list is anti-tank shooting, to deal with fast tanks which can quite easily avoid meganobs.
I'm assuming you're not playing matched play as mega armour bosses are legends now so not strictly valid in matched play (obviously entirely up to you and your opponent). What relic and warlord trait are you thinking with your boss? Also, what klan are you going for?
@Blackie, that sounds like a cool list idea. I really like the look of Mek gunz so any excuse to use them is good haha.
@some bloke, my group are fine with using legends in our games, most of us have units we’ve converted from a while back and want to keep using.
In terms of relics and such, I’m thinking the Killa Klaw and Follow me Ladz! And I play the Goff klan, which I know probably isn’t the greatest. It does mean I typically upgrade my boyz as Skarboyz though and I enjoy getting to roll extra hits with both my dakka and my melee.
So this is the alternate list I’m thinking, based on Blackie’s suggestions:
HQ - Warboss in Mega armour w/ Da Killa Klaw, Follow Me Ladz! in Bonebreaka
TROOPS
- 10x Slugga Boyz w/ Skarboyz upgrade, in Truck
- 10x Slugga Boyz w/ Skarboyz upgrade, in Trukk
- 10x Shoota Boyz (probably to sit on a home objective maybe? Or screen the Gunz)
ELITES
- 4x Mega Nobz in Bonebreaka
HEAVY
- Bonebreaka w/ Forktress
- 2x Mek Gunz
TRANSPORT
- Trukk
- Trukk
That's a good list, playing to the strengths of Goffs (hittin' stuff) and getting there quick to do it.
In other thoughts, I'm pondering uses of the Mob Up stratagem to speed up our boys. My current thought is to have a couple of trukks with 10 boys inside and then aim to (from turn 2 onwards) disembark them in such a way to create a conga line between the enemy and my big unit, and then mob up to make them one unit. After this, the unit can declare a charge on the enemy (which they are significantly closer to now) and be dragged along with the 2D6" charge move to get there quicker and more efficiently.
I've never seen this sort of thing used to do anything but make a bigger unit of boys, has anyone tried using mob up to create "branches" off of a central mob to assist it in making moves across the table? I'm wondering if an army built around this one, scarily fast blob of boys (evil suns or goffs? decisions decisions...) would be viable. If you had a second unit of 30 which you kept from mobbing up, they could EGT in after casualties to start the cycle anew.
Tomsug wrote: Tiberius - my simple tips how to start:
2. Have enough dakka to kill a knight a turn. Twice. The same with some horde units (check the discuss about this about 10 pages back).
3. Be mobile. Either via Da Jump and other deepstrikes, or because of the fast wheels. You need to control the board, you need to get there.
Those are not absolutes. Some tournament winning lists can't either 1-shot a knight (let alone two) or delete cheap 45+ infantries in one turn. Slow Goffs greentides could work perfectly with all footslogging dudes with no Da Jump or Tellyporta.
Show me this list and I show you, how to kill knight twice... if you speak about top lists from goonhammer etc..
Afrodactyl wrote: I've adjusted my wagon list, including a jump to 2k points as lockdown boredom has finally given me the motivation to finish painting some models.
I would love to know what my fellow greenskins think and can be improved upon.
Your list looks really solid! All I would potentially suggest is that you maybe drop the KBB and replace the two Nobz with PK in your Kommando squads with regular kommandos to fit in another Shokk Jump Dragsta. This way you have a more efficient use of the kustom job for them and it makes stuff like linebreaker and engage on all fronts even more trivial for you to achieve since you have 2 guaranteed teleports into board corners. The Kommandos are unlikely to be engaging in CC anyhow so I think it's worth saving the points on the PK so you have more board control/potential anti-tank. I also typically find that KBB work best if you have at least 2 since once people know what it's capable of, if you only have one it's gone the moment it's in line of sight.
Afrodactyl wrote: I've adjusted my wagon list, including a jump to 2k points as lockdown boredom has finally given me the motivation to finish painting some models.
I would love to know what my fellow greenskins think and can be improved upon.
Your list looks really solid! All I would potentially suggest is that you maybe drop the KBB and replace the two Nobz with PK in your Kommando squads with regular kommandos to fit in another Shokk Jump Dragsta. This way you have a more efficient use of the kustom job for them and it makes stuff like linebreaker and engage on all fronts even more trivial for you to achieve since you have 2 guaranteed teleports into board corners. The Kommandos are unlikely to be engaging in CC anyhow so I think it's worth saving the points on the PK so you have more board control/potential anti-tank. I also typically find that KBB work best if you have at least 2 since once people know what it's capable of, if you only have one it's gone the moment it's in line of sight.
Looks neat!
As already said, i would also skip on the kommando nobs.
Personally i played Da Boomer many games but i am not really sold on him.
I play very similar lists a lot with the only major change to take out Da Boomer and the KBB to field 3 Dragsta & 3 Scrapjets.
Not saying he is wortless but i had no real luck with him.
Grotrebel wrote: Looks neat!
As already said, i would also skip on the kommando nobs.
Personally i played Da Boomer many games but i am not really sold on him.
I play very similar lists a lot with the only major change to take out Da Boomer and the KBB to field 3 Dragsta & 3 Scrapjets.
Not saying he is wortless but i had no real luck with him.
I feel like the 4D6 shots a turn from the boomer is a little bit of a trap since unless you are firing against a horde you often don't have an optimal amount of shooting and can be very swingy similar to the SSAG of old. Unlike the SSAG, your AP and Damage are comparatively sub-par and it can be easily targeted. I feel like it needs the rerolls from Visions in the Smoke or getting the crucial S9 and AP-3 stats from being part of a BoomBoyz detachment to really make it feel like it's worth your while IMO. Gunwagons should be BS4+ base given what they're competing against in the HS slot.
Grotrebel wrote: Looks neat!
As already said, i would also skip on the kommando nobs.
Personally i played Da Boomer many games but i am not really sold on him.
I play very similar lists a lot with the only major change to take out Da Boomer and the KBB to field 3 Dragsta & 3 Scrapjets.
Not saying he is wortless but i had no real luck with him.
Thanks for the input.
I'm going to have a go with the KBB swapped out for another SJD (and the kommando nobs dropped to make up the points)
I've had some reasonable success with Da Boomer just treating it like a big mek gun and leaving it more or less stationary to just shell stuff. Between itself, the mek guns, buggies and the other BWs I've got some nice target saturation.
Show me this list and I show you, how to kill knight twice... if you speak about top lists from goonhammer etc..
Page 1 of this thread, there are listed the top tournament lists. Pick one of them, your preference, and show me how to guarantee to kill twice a knight in one turn.
gungo wrote: I haven’t seen good pictures of the mek dread profile how did they Redo it’s feel no pain ability
It's just the Ramshackle rule from the Trukk ported over to them, so they no longer have a pseudo 5+ FNP that degrades, they get a 6+ save to reduce damage to 1.
It was a 4+ fnp that degraded
So this is a pretty big hit.
They did go down close to 100 points, so they are much easier to include in a list now. However they lost access to the KFF, most likely because it was never part of the model.
Ouch the kff is gone too? What’s the entire point of the meka dread.. also the meka dread body had a kff on it.
I just checked the assembly manual for my Meka Dread, and actually it is not modelled with a KFF. It does have an exposed engine and exhaust though.
right side of the body above the servo arm has the kff antenna
Those rods are listed as "power coils" on the assembly sheet. You could proxy it as a KFF, but it was clearly not intended as such since the designers removed the rule from the Meka Dread.
1) How do you generally deal with Custodes? I find them frustrating to deal with and they seem to have a large pool of CP due to getting them back on 5s and 6s each.. round? i believe. And then theres the stratagems and terminators being deployed 3 inches away from me, reducing my damage by one, ignoring AP -1 and 2s, stopping my charge by X inches. All sorts of shinanigans that i have to deal with. and thats on top of the ridiculous saves of +3 and 2 i think, and good toughness and strength means great survivability and damage which means my boyz generally dont do anything at all. I had a Mek gun with a Kustom mega kannon, 4 grot tanks with Kustom mega blastas, and 4 Killa Kanz with Rokkits with sparkly bits all shooting against a venerable custodes dreadnought, and i did a total of 2 damage. It was a nightmare.
Every time i try to kill a unit of Custodes usually nothing much happens even with AP attacks. When i fight against any other army i have a general idea of what will happen before i start my action, like, you attack a deathguard player with a deff dread, i have a general idea of how much it will kill, or space marine units etc. But custodes? I have no idea, i cant predict it. often Nothing much happens. Like when i attacked the dreadnought as explained above, i expected at least 6 damage to be taken but it only took 2. Sure ive had ghaz take out 4 bikers in a single melee phase but thats not the norm, usually nothing much happens due to shields and invulsaves on +2s or 3s and such.
The maps are also considerably smaller these days so its difficult to isolate Custodes units and destroy them. Now ive had 3 matches against custodes, 2 losses, and 1 victory, but i feel like he messed up and he could have won which could be 3 losses.
I run a 2000 point Ghaz army which is not a typical army, but its sadly what i have. I have a total of 2000 thus i cant really change anything but i want to plan for the future. In general, what helpful tips do you have for fighting custodes? Also which secondaries do you take? i rarely know what secondaries to take except for engage on all fronts and maybe assassinate depending on the amount of characters when fighting custodes. My deploy scramblers failed pretty much last time.
My army:
Spoiler:
Goff detatchment:
Ghaz the man
Warboss (warlord) with kombi flamer and squig. Uses da Killa Klaw and brutal but kunning.
WeirdBoy with Da jump, Warpath or fist of gork, + smite for 1 cp.
9x boyz with slugga and choppa + a nob with powerklaw
9x boyz with shootas + a nob with powerklaw
19 boyz with sluggas and choppa + a nob with powerklaw (Skarboyz for 1 cp)
6x nobz with big choppas + a nob boss with powerklaw
3xMega nobz with powerklaw and kustom shoota
Painboy
Deff dread with 2 klaws and 2 buzzsaws
Chinork warkopta with 2x rattler kannons and big shoota
Trukk w. big shoota.
Grot mob patrol for 2CP:
Big Mek with KFF 10x Grots
3x Grot tanks with Kustom mega blasta, + a kommanda with 2 kustom mega blastas
4x Killa Kanz with Rokkit launchers, 2 of them with saws, 2 of them with klaws. Sparkly bitz for 1 CP.
1x Mek gun with Kustom Mega kannon.
I have a Warboss on Warbike and Big Trakk still in their package i havent put together yet. And a Supa Kannon. Dont know if any of that helps. I have dealt with Space marine players, but custodes really gets on my nerves.
2) How do you guys think a full Buzzgob army of 2000 point could look? What characters would you go for? Buzzgob gives no KFF so you will lose that, will you take a warboss still for the advance and charge for infantry? Will you take another Big mek for the KFF or weirdboy? How many and what infantry? What vehicles?
I ask because i want to make a Vehicle waaagh with buzzgob, and see what would be useful.
2) How do you guys think a full Buzzgob army of 2000 point could look? What characters would you go for? Buzzgob gives no KFF so you will lose that, will you take a warboss still for the advance and charge for infantry? Will you take another Big mek for the KFF or weirdboy? How many and what infantry? What vehicles?
I ask because i want to make a Vehicle waaagh with buzzgob, and see what would be useful.
I'm afraid I have no experience vs custards so I cannot advise you there.
However, IIRC Buzzgob's abilities are to select a walker unit and give it +1 to hit, which is pretty cool. I'd be looking to use a Morkanaught for KFF cover (nice big base) and as it's a beast in both CC and shooting, especially with +1 to hit. I'd use a gorkanaught because the goff's exploding 6's can be amazing (IIRC each 6 to hit generates 3 fresh attacks, due to the klaws rules). I've also hard good things about mega/meka dreads, so might be inclined to take 2 of them. I'd cap it off with a unit of fighty dreads and a deffkilla wartrike (or bikerboss now, come to think of it) which would allow the whole army to advance and charge. If the points were around, I would then bolster with 2 units of 20 slugga boys for objective claiming, and a weirdboy with warpath to further capitalize on the goff culture of hittin' fings.
Just thrown together a potential list:
Spoiler:
Goff Spearhead Detachment: 1998pts.
HQ:
Buzzgob
Warboss on Warbike, Biggest boss, Killa Klaw, Dead Killy, Warlord
Heavy Support:
3 Deff Dreads, all: 1 klaw, 2 saw, skorcha. Dirty Gubbinz.
Gorkanaught, Orkymatic Pistons
Mega Dread, 2 rippa klaws
Mega Dread, 2 rippa klaws
Morkanaught, KFF, Sparkly bits.
Upsides of the list:
2 units of skarboys with a waaagh banner to back them up will be quite brutal.
Morkanaught, with sparkly bitz and buzzgob, hits on a 3+ when shooting. Ouch. Even effective vs fliers.
Gorkanaught + warboss can hit turn 1. Warboss because he's fast, gorkanaught because he's fast and has ramming speed.
3 dreads with -1 to hit is good. Could even tellyport them.
Good mix of anti-tank, anti-infantry and all of it 'ard as 'ell!
Downsides of the list:
Mixes infantry and vehicles, but you do need something to hold objectives. Hope the opponent gets caught up on hurting the dreads!
only 3CP left when all spent on upgrades! maybe drop scarboys, as there's a good chance of them dying to every anti-infantry thing out there! Mabe instead invest in Meganobs, who also need anti-tank to hurt, completing your redundancy taktiks.
No experience against golden bananas either. I'd just like to point out that with kanz and grot tanks you are running quite a few sub-optimal choices and that there is no real shooting in your list able to kill a bunch of 3W/2+ models.
In addition, I would like to remind everyone asking for advice on their lists, that dakka has an army list forum dedicated to that. Just drop the link to your thread here, and people will follow it. It's impossible to discuss multiple lists in one thread.
On the same account, I would ask people reading those links here to actually follow them hand provide help as if they were part of this thread.
2) How do you guys think a full Buzzgob army of 2000 point could look? What characters would you go for? Buzzgob gives no KFF so you will lose that, will you take a warboss still for the advance and charge for infantry? Will you take another Big mek for the KFF or weirdboy? How many and what infantry? What vehicles?
I ask because i want to make a Vehicle waaagh with buzzgob, and see what would be useful.
I'm afraid I have no experience vs custards so I cannot advise you there.
However, IIRC Buzzgob's abilities are to select a walker unit and give it +1 to hit, which is pretty cool. I'd be looking to use a Morkanaught for KFF cover (nice big base) and as it's a beast in both CC and shooting, especially with +1 to hit. I'd use a gorkanaught because the goff's exploding 6's can be amazing (IIRC each 6 to hit generates 3 fresh attacks, due to the klaws rules). I've also hard good things about mega/meka dreads, so might be inclined to take 2 of them. I'd cap it off with a unit of fighty dreads and a deffkilla wartrike (or bikerboss now, come to think of it) which would allow the whole army to advance and charge. If the points were around, I would then bolster with 2 units of 20 slugga boys for objective claiming, and a weirdboy with warpath to further capitalize on the goff culture of hittin' fings.
Just thrown together a potential list:
Spoiler:
Goff Spearhead Detachment: 1998pts.
HQ:
Buzzgob
Warboss on Warbike, Biggest boss, Killa Klaw, Dead Killy, Warlord
Heavy Support:
3 Deff Dreads, all: 1 klaw, 2 saw, skorcha. Dirty Gubbinz.
Gorkanaught, Orkymatic Pistons
Mega Dread, 2 rippa klaws
Mega Dread, 2 rippa klaws
Morkanaught, KFF, Sparkly bits.
Upsides of the list:
2 units of skarboys with a waaagh banner to back them up will be quite brutal.
Morkanaught, with sparkly bitz and buzzgob, hits on a 3+ when shooting. Ouch. Even effective vs fliers.
Gorkanaught + warboss can hit turn 1. Warboss because he's fast, gorkanaught because he's fast and has ramming speed.
3 dreads with -1 to hit is good. Could even tellyport them.
Good mix of anti-tank, anti-infantry and all of it 'ard as 'ell!
Downsides of the list:
Mixes infantry and vehicles, but you do need something to hold objectives. Hope the opponent gets caught up on hurting the dreads!
only 3CP left when all spent on upgrades! maybe drop scarboys, as there's a good chance of them dying to every anti-infantry thing out there! Mabe instead invest in Meganobs, who also need anti-tank to hurt, completing your redundancy taktiks.
Thanks friend, your advice is good. I like the list already and can fill out a few gaps here and there. While you dont have experience with Buzzgob, do you think this list could work better than a potential Deathskulls list? Im assuming that deathskulls are, in general, the main mech army otherwise, but i hope that Buzzgobs Goffs mechs can contest that first place.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah wrote: No experience against golden bananas either. I'd just like to point out that with kanz and grot tanks you are running quite a few sub-optimal choices and that there is no real shooting in your list able to kill a bunch of 3W/2+ models.
In addition, I would like to remind everyone asking for advice on their lists, that dakka has an army list forum dedicated to that. Just drop the link to your thread here, and people will follow it. It's impossible to discuss multiple lists in one thread.
On the same account, I would ask people reading those links here to actually follow them hand provide help as if they were part of this thread.
Sorry, I just thought my question was fit for here. I dont understand, Jidmah what you mean about dropping a link to my thread?
Do you mean i should make another thread in the list section of the forum, if it has such a thing, and then drop a link here to that thread?
Im a little confused.
But yea sadly the enemy tends to eat my grot tanks and Killa Kanz for the Bring em Down secondary as well as my Chinork, yet surprisingly they all tend to survive well in to turn 3. Sometimes my Killa kanz dont die at all, but still, yea they are both generally sub optimal. I am thinking about going for maybe a kannonwagon or something else. My Grot tanks are intended to become Mek Gunz, but they havent been converted yet.
If Custodes are generally summed up as 3W 2+sv models, then I'd be looking to use:
1: Rokkits, rokkits, rokkits! flat damage 3 and -2AP, they'll connect well.
2: Deff Dreads - klaw attacks are flat 3 damage, and decent AP.
3: Loads of boys - in a horde list, not in addition to vehicles. I seem to recall that custodes have very few models, so should struggle to deal with over 100, and won't do well at taking objectives.
4: smasha guns, they are great for sniping elite models, and on occasion you get 6 models clumped up for guaranteed 3 shots!
Beardedragon wrote: Do you mean i should make another thread in the list section of the forum, if it has such a thing, and then drop a link here to that thread?
Correct. Usually posting lists here is not a problem, but right now we have four people asking for advice with their lists and this simply doesn't work.
But yea sadly the enemy tends to eat my grot tanks and Killa Kanz for the Bring em Down secondary as well as my Chinork, yet surprisingly they all tend to survive well in to turn 3. Sometimes my Killa kanz dont die at all, but still, yea they are both generally sub optimal. I am thinking about going for maybe a kannonwagon or something else. My Grot tanks are intended to become Mek Gunz, but they havent been converted yet.
The issue is more that you get preciously little shooting out of your points compared to a naut or a buggy.
Who here thinks we will be getting new models for boyz, like necron got with their warriors ? There was a rumor some time in a not too far distant past...
I am debating buying 30 boyz from a friend at a not too bad price.
I think there may be others here facing the same dilemma. Sorry I know it has little to do with taktiks
addnid wrote: Who here thinks we will be getting new models for boyz, like necron got with their warriors ? There was a rumor some time in a not too far distant past...
I am debating buying 30 boyz from a friend at a not too bad price.
I think there may be others here facing the same dilemma. Sorry I know it has little to do with taktiks
As much as Id like it to be true (id happily trade in my Boyz for new sculpts) I dont think its happening, it could be a second in command type character as when they previewed the ork it was with other commanders, the new Sisters Palatine, the Skitarii Primus, that new Deathguard HQ and Lelith for DE. My hope is that they bring out new Boyz, Kommandos/Tankbustas and maybe even redo the Burna/Lootas whilst they are at it and then get that Big Mek with KFF out.
i have around 380 Boyz but I only use about 90 of them and ive updated them with new heads from the Ironjaw range, kommando backpacks from FW, all of them have spent ammo cases (I raid bits sites as soon as they are up for new spent casings), unique looking shootas (swapping ammo mags/belts, changing the barrel, using exhausts as barrels etc) and they look miles better for it. Im already on the fence about selling all but the 90 boys ive updated.
I don’t want to crowd this space with more army lists but I would like to ask if spending the points on trucks or more boyz is better? For the price of 20 boyz and 2 trukks, I could have 40 boyz. Are the trukks worth losing out on that many bodies and attacks?
EDIT: tbf I’m only looking at power, they’re cheaper in points so that makes more sense. But if I were using power, a Trukk is 4 power, the same as 10 boyz. Which is more worth it?
my money is that new "boy" model we know about isnt boyz but something between boyz and nobz. I.e. our "primaris boyz"
They really wont gain anything by releasing new boy sculpts. Unless you are just starting out every ork player has hundreds of boyz, as its super easy to get a ton of them for dirt cheap even today.
Tiberius501 wrote: I don’t want to crowd this space with more army lists but I would like to ask if spending the points on trucks or more boyz is better? For the price of 20 boyz and 2 trukks, I could have 40 boyz. Are the trukks worth losing out on that many bodies and attacks?
EDIT: tbf I’m only looking at power, they’re cheaper in points so that makes more sense. But if I were using power, a Trukk is 4 power, the same as 10 boyz. Which is more worth it?
That depends on what you want the unit to do, and what army it is with.
In a pure foot army, 2 trukks will draw all the anti-tank. In a vehicle list, 2 units of 20 boys will draw all the anti infantry.
If you have a taktik involving the trukk, then it's an option - I am wondering about using trukks of shoota boys to help me maneuver a big blob of boys (put trukks tactically around boys, when the 10 boys get out they can mob up with the big unit and dramatically reduce charges, increase chances of surrounding the unit to stay in combat, being in range of a warboss, etc.) and if they don't need to, then it's time for shootas to roll around scoring objectives and being a nuisance. Still has the issue of being vehicles in an infantry heavy list, though, so it's not ideal.
Vineheart01 wrote: my money is that new "boy" model we know about isnt boyz but something between boyz and nobz. I.e. our "primaris boyz"
They really wont gain anything by releasing new boy sculpts. Unless you are just starting out every ork player has hundreds of boyz, as its super easy to get a ton of them for dirt cheap even today.
So Skarboyz pretty much its not just goffs who have them, but goffs have the highest ratio of them due to their highly aggressive nature.
Show me this list and I show you, how to kill knight twice... if you speak about top lists from goonhammer etc..
Page 1 of this thread, there are listed the top tournament lists. Pick one of them, your preference, and show me how to guarantee to kill twice a knight in one turn.
I. First few are the most common type right now - ghaz + pimped warboss or megamek + 6-10 MANz i 2 squads, or some other hard hitting dudes. That is pretty easy.
- Any pimped warboss can kill a knight (trait+Killa klaw+da biggest boss) x fight three times. No problem. Did it several times.
- ghazz can kill or seriously damage knight simillar way I believe, not done it or count it yet, but seems to similar to warboss scenario...
- 4 MANz squad + hit them harder + fight twice and knight is dead. Did several times. With 2 squads pretty high chance of pass the charge.
- MANz go usually with warboss or ghazz, so they can adv+ charge = 4”+3,5”+9”= 16,5” 50% chance of charge rising up with more squads or added warboss. So some of them can die due overwatch or whatever and knight is still dead.
II. Seth the Mad' s list is the most complicated, but option 1 is warboss as above, option 2 is sub optimal combination of 3 scrapjets and 3 dragstas. With little bit of luck, knight is dead or seriously damaged.
III. Last is buggy list, same scenario. Moto warboss do it, 6 scrapjets + dragsta do it.
Whats the point of the deffkilla wartrike now that biker boss has speedwaagh too instead of regular waagh?
I find it weird the regular biker boss dont just have normal waagh actually. feels like they compete with each other for no reason, and the deffkilla is losing.
Boss with killaklaw only killed a knight before if said knight was beaten up already or he suicided for the extra attack before he died.
Since "Get Stuck In Ladz" is end of phase, the knight always gets to swing back and a single hit killed the original boss with no chance to survive.
Less of an issue these days though since Slay the Warlord isnt really a problem anymore. Which on a fluff standpoint is annoying but on a gamebalance one im glad because it forced any melee HQs to never bee the warlord or expect to give them Slay points.
Woke up to some new rules from FW. I think battlescribe may be wonky, or FW just loves me.
The kannonwagon saves on 3s instead of 4s? That was a nice surprise. Makes sense but don't see a top option so stuck at t7 though.
Don't get to shoot twice like the Gunwagon but 2d6 shots hitting on 4s is pretty awesome. Dont remember from before but ap-3 feels huge in an ork world of ap-2 rockets. I think I'm going to start bringing one.
How many CP on average are you guys starting your games with? After all my kustom jobs and boss/Mek upgrades I've only got 4 to play with and that feels really low.
Keramory wrote: Woke up to some new rules from FW. I think battlescribe may be wonky, or FW just loves me.
The kannonwagon saves on 3s instead of 4s? That was a nice surprise. Makes sense but don't see a top option so stuck at t7 though.
Don't get to shoot twice like the Gunwagon but 2d6 shots hitting on 4s is pretty awesome. Dont remember from before but ap-3 feels huge in an ork world of ap-2 rockets. I think I'm going to start bringing one.
It's probably *better* than a regular gun wagon, but worse than the relic Da Bommer Gunwagon.
Better range, flat 3 damage, 3+ save, 4+ to hit. It's smokes the regular gunwagon, badly. It's a bit less durable (well maybe a wash -- -1 T for +1 save), but you need to flatten out Gravis.
If you need a back objective holder, it's a great candidate.
Edit: It also does not require CP to become useful.
My Buggy lists end up with 4-6 a lot, but that's no big deal as you still have 9-11 total and it is not really dependent from CP as Death Skulls.
Other builds have more, especially with green tide i try to have 6-9 at least for those expensive Boy strategems.
Afrodactyl wrote: How many CP on average are you guys starting your games with? After all my kustom jobs and boss/Mek upgrades I've only got 4 to play with and that feels really low.
Lowest I've hit was 2. Fortunately, by that time most of my army was pretty independant. Turn 1 I blew 2 of the 3 I had by then (gain 1 per turn remember) and then too ka couple turns of saving to try and be ready to use some later in the game.
Then another game I started with 5 and finished with 4, so it's swings and roundabouts. Generally CP spent in list building makes that unit not need stratagems, except ramming speed for extra reach.
Vineheart01 wrote: my money is that new "boy" model we know about isnt boyz but something between boyz and nobz. I.e. our "primaris boyz"
They really wont gain anything by releasing new boy sculpts. Unless you are just starting out every ork player has hundreds of boyz, as its super easy to get a ton of them for dirt cheap even today.
So Skarboyz pretty much its not just goffs who have them, but goffs have the highest ratio of them due to their highly aggressive nature.
Ah yes you guys are right, they will make boyz obsolete (Necron player typically didn't field that many warriors, which is why GW didn't feel the urge to make the old ones obsolete by looking small in comparison to the new).
But I know myself, if GW releases new "Bigger" boyz then I will do everything to not field the old ugly (in comparison) kit. I think I won't be buying any more boyz for now.
Thanks and sorry for having digressed from tactics
Vineheart01 wrote: i mean Shuriken cannons are a thing why not Buzzsaw kannons?
Imagine if it was grot piloted too, I'd love to see the Goblin Doom Diver idea revived in model form in 40k. The closest we ever had to that was the grot bomma.
Vineheart01 wrote: i mean Shuriken cannons are a thing why not Buzzsaw kannons?
Imagine if it was grot piloted too, I'd love to see the Goblin Doom Diver idea revived in model form in 40k. The closest we ever had to that was the grot bomma.
Pretty much just think those monowheeled vehicles from Starwars. Except it's a giant buzzsaw with a tiny grot inside the centre. Maybe with explosives attached to the back of the seat where he can't see them.
Today, I' ve given a try to new Big Trakk and I like it.
First, it looks super cool
Second, little bit more of move and wounds, little bit of mortal wounds on charge and A6 5/0/1 to kill the last guardsman for 85 points make a very decent mix and upgrade to trukk, to shift it from ... well... trukk ... to something more mature.
Low profile of the models helps a lot to hide it. Wide and long solid body blocks LOS to your grots or boyz +/- and obstruct in the move of opponent units very well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ou yeh, and my smashaguns finely hit something. In 2 turns they performed like “3 from 6 smg, each made 5 hits form D3 shots, kills 5 guardsman because you need to kill them to gain the objective” after abiut 5 games of do nothing. .... argh..
Honestly, a I like this game. Full of surprise. And I like 9th. Much more interesting than 8th.
Just a quick link to my army lists for any feedback. Thanks
Commented on the thread.
Has anyone tried using battlewagon + trukk toget a horde across the battlefield fast? I was lamenting how boys improve over 20 models, but can't transport that many, but then I realised that if you take a Battlewagon with a trukk alongside, you can have 30 models disembark, move forward, mob-up and charge for a turn 2 30-boy charge without needing 9" on the roll.
I'm considering building a core f my next list around 2 wagons full of boys, 3 trukks full of boys, and then as many distraction carnifexen as I can fit in to try and keep them alive. wagon + trukk will rol lforawrd, second wagon + 2 trukks will try to circle around for a turn 3 charge from behind to contest home objectives and get linebreaker.
Thinking best distraction carnifex will be a bikerboss + gorkanaught to get the second wagon charging turn 1, ready to move around, and the gorkanaught charging as well thanks to the boss. Hopefully all guns will turn to the big scary gorkanaught and then 60 boys can fall on them in 2 waves. Thoughts?
Show me this list and I show you, how to kill knight twice... if you speak about top lists from goonhammer etc..
Page 1 of this thread, there are listed the top tournament lists. Pick one of them, your preference, and show me how to guarantee to kill twice a knight in one turn.
I. First few are the most common type right now - ghaz + pimped warboss or megamek + 6-10 MANz i 2 squads, or some other hard hitting dudes. That is pretty easy.
- Any pimped warboss can kill a knight (trait+Killa klaw+da biggest boss) x fight three times. No problem. Did it several times.
- ghazz can kill or seriously damage knight simillar way I believe, not done it or count it yet, but seems to similar to warboss scenario...
- 4 MANz squad + hit them harder + fight twice and knight is dead. Did several times. With 2 squads pretty high chance of pass the charge.
- MANz go usually with warboss or ghazz, so they can adv+ charge = 4”+3,5”+9”= 16,5” 50% chance of charge rising up with more squads or added warboss. So some of them can die due overwatch or whatever and knight is still dead.
II. Seth the Mad' s list is the most complicated, but option 1 is warboss as above, option 2 is sub optimal combination of 3 scrapjets and 3 dragstas. With little bit of luck, knight is dead or seriously damaged.
III. Last is buggy list, same scenario. Moto warboss do it, 6 scrapjets + dragsta do it.
QED
Or do I miss something?
Oh, ok you're just theoryhammering, now I get it. If you put it this way I can agree with you.
5 deepstriking Meganobz buffed with Hit the Harder is the bread and butter of my lists, but realistically they won't be able to charge the most juicy target the turn they show up. There's also the chance of failing the charge, which isn't low unless they are Evil Sunz. Warboss or Ghaz can absolutely do the trick, but again the opponent won't let them charge his more valuable model in turn 1. Ghaz won't probably charge something that big before turn 3, and chances that he dies before even trying are pretty high.
6 scrapjets + SJD don't have the math to kill a night with firepower although they'd go very close. No chance of doing it twice in 1 turn though.
I was talking about guaranteed results, a warboss with all the buffs CAN 1-shot a knight, but only a fool would allow the ork player to do it in turn 1. For being able to 1-shot a knight I mean something like the 8th combo with Bad Moons tankbustas: 15+6 bomb squigs into Tellyporta + More Dakka + Showing Off. That's a guaranteed (over)killed knight the moment they pop up.
Charging a knight in turn 1 is really theoryhammer unless you're playing against someone that has little experience in the game. Overkilling a knight (like killing it twice) is also very theoryhammering, typically there's really no need to do it.
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Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah, orks dont get AP3/4 shooting.
Unless it can nuke the ork in the process.
Evil sunz stompa with the evil sunz psychic power to reroll all misses combined with more dakka will totally kill a knight t1. Equally a full squad of tankbustas with bomb squigs with more dakka will kill a knight and then some (especially if you're deathskulls and you use thier trait to reroll all wounds)
A slightly related question; after successfully rolling to fire the supa-gatler a second (or third time) do I have to shoot at the original target or do I get to nominate a new target (each time)? I know the guard grinding advance specifies it.
CaptainO wrote: Evil sunz stompa with the evil sunz psychic power to reroll all misses combined with more dakka will totally kill a knight t1. Equally a full squad of tankbustas with bomb squigs with more dakka will kill a knight and then some (especially if you're deathskulls and you use thier trait to reroll all wounds)
A slightly related question; after successfully rolling to fire the supa-gatler a second (or third time) do I have to shoot at the original target or do I get to nominate a new target (each time)? I know the guard grinding advance specifies it.
I am seriously considering a tricked-out kustom stompa with all shooting for after lockdown 2 (the sequel), as it effectively doesn't degrade (no! not lower strength, move and attacks on my long-ranged gun platform! please!), and am toying between bad moons (because rerolling 1's every turn on that many shots is awesome) and Evil suns (purely for the visions rerolls). I'm also leaning for snakebites for 6+++, which would possibly give me one more turn of shooting, which is also awesome.
Evil suns does have the advantage that, whilst it won't benefit from klan traits, the weirdboy can still cast visions on it. Bad moons, deffskulls, snakebites - all of these need 2 more lords of war to make them work.
That said, at 850pts with every gun, you could feasibly have 2 kustom stompas and a kill tank in a 2k game, with points for a patrol detachment to take objectives. two kustm stompas offloading on the enemy will certainly make an impact...
Blackie - see, we both speaking about something else. My “test” is simple math to check if I have enough of the right dakka. And it´ s pure math. Does the list have enough power to kill in one (not first!) exemplary target twice? How to do it and in what turn is another more complex layer.
Example from my old 8th list. I found I need some heavy foots on ground. MANz seemed to be a solid option. I checked via such test their possibilites - typical situation in those timesfor me was to face landrider, bunch of termies, knight crusader size. This helps me to fir the size of the the squad, loadout etc. Than I add the second layer of how to use them and result was Evil Sunz detachement with 2 squads per 4MANz with PK and KS and motowarboss. One squad footsloging forward in cover, second in telyporta and warboss sligtly in between, etc etc.
The gun platform stompa has legs! I'm running one gun platform stompa as an super heavy auxiliary detachment now.
Evil sunz Rerolls everything with more dakka is insane. Like kill a contemptor invictor and squad of inceptors in one go with shots to spare (I could have killed another squad of intersessors if I chose my shots better) I paid 5cp to put it in reserve. Waited till he'd dropped his anti tank and brought it in. (even with terrain hes so big he can see loads of correctly placed).
I used a weird boy with the +1 to cast relic to cast shadows in the smoke (he got +3 to cast for being near 30 Ork models (3× 10 trukk boys with another squad of 10 boys in reserve guaranteed at least 30 bods) with a cp to reroll meant it went off(causing 3 wounds to me for perils ,but it still went off).
Reroll everything with exploding 5s is crazy. Im doing the maths and it works out at almost 8 hits for every 10 shots so most weapons.
It's a great source of ap-3 and -4 too. I do start the game with 1cp though
I used a weird boy with the +1 to cast relic to cast shadows in the smoke (he got +3 to cast for being near 30 Ork models (3× 10 trukk boys with another squad of 10 boys in reserve guaranteed at least 30 bods) with a cp to reroll meant it went off(causing 3 wounds to me for perils ,but it still went off).
Just FYI, this relic does not work with <CLAN> psychic powers.
It very specifically buffs Power of the Waaaagh psychic powers, which none of the Saga powers are.
It really sucks, because it would make splashing in stuff like Maniacal Seizures much easier for mech Deathskull lists which would be amazing. 7 cast is tough enough without bonuses. 9 cast is not gonna happen.
I used a weird boy with the +1 to cast relic to cast shadows in the smoke (he got +3 to cast for being near 30 Ork models (3× 10 trukk boys with another squad of 10 boys in reserve guaranteed at least 30 bods) with a cp to reroll meant it went off(causing 3 wounds to me for perils ,but it still went off).
Just FYI, this relic does not work with <CLAN> psychic powers.
It very specifically buffs Power of the Waaaagh psychic powers, which none of the Saga powers are.
It really sucks, because it would make splashing in stuff like Maniacal Seizures much easier for mech Deathskull lists which would be amazing. 7 cast is tough enough without bonuses. 9 cast is not gonna happen.
Good catch. Its still a 92.2% chance of success with a reroll and 30 boyz nearby. Keep him out of deny range mind.
The Meka-dread really seem inferior to the Mega-dread. I mean +4 BS is good if you want to shoot, but its repair ability is meh at best i think. D3 repair? hmm. It should have retained the KFF, and then suddenly i would consider using it.
The mini ramming speed on Mega-dreads seem good although the old ability, though a bit risky to use too, was awesome too. you could charge across the battlefield.
An over all annoyance i have with the new Forge World codex book thing is how many special weapons were removed. I understand it had no model so it went away, but it also means that a lot of customizability went out the window. No Zap Gunz, no rattler kannons, no Supa scorchas, none of all those fun weapons that meant you could kit your units.
I think its sad that Orks had to get streamlined because they didnt have official models. Id rather they just.. made models then.
Also worth noting (unless I'm reading it wrong) that a perils result means the power fails, even if it's a high one. Think it's in the perils section - so +3 on a weirdboy is maybe not so great!
some bloke wrote: Also worth noting (unless I'm reading it wrong) that a perils result means the power fails, even if it's a high one. Think it's in the perils section - so +3 on a weirdboy is maybe not so great!
That was not the case in 8th-are you sure that that changed?
Jidmah wrote: You are a decade too late for that. Orks have been losing options left and right ever since 7th.
Yeah, no kidding. I wonder how he would feel if he looked back at the options we had back in 5th edition. Looted Wagons, Burnas on Big Meks, SAG on Bikes, Old Zogwort, Wazdakka, old school ramshackle rules, hell even bosspoles! I always loved being able to give Cybork bodies to Meganobz with Mad Dok Grotsnik.
Psychic Phase wrote:When a PSYKER unit suffers Perils of the Warp, it suffers D3 mortal wounds. If a PSYKER unit is destroyed by Perils of the Warp while attempting to manifest a psychic power, that power automatically fails to manifest. If a PSYKER unit is destroyed by Perils of the Warp, then just before removing the last model in that unit, every unit within 6" of it immediately suffers D3 mortal wounds.
Bigshootas are free across the board. At first i thought it was a grot tank misprint because it listed KMB as +10pts when its replacing a bigshoota, but the other units that have an option to get a Bigshoota (e.g. Kannonwagon) doesnt have a pricetag for it at all.
That cant be intended. Theres no way GW makes the bigshoota free, even if that would be one way to improve it (cant complain about it sucking if its literally not infringing on my listbuilding lol)
edit: and before anyone says "if its not listed in the back but its on the datasheet then it needs a faq" no, it doesnt because the top of the page for points says "Weapons and other wargear not listed in a units entry cost no additional points to include in that unit"
I really think bigshootas are free now. Which is mega annoying because that means grottanks/megagrottanks are still overpriced lol
That's....certainly an odd revelation. I feel like that's probably one of the worse ways they went about improving the weapon as a whole. I guess we'll see when our 9th ed codex drops but ideally it's still stat changes, since that really makes kustom shoota prices look dumber than they already are.
Doesn’t the new way of things make different equipment cost different prices depending on the unit, because it lists it under each unit separately? So it could just be that they don’t think it’s worth a cost on the forge world units, or maybe it’s baked into their base cost if they’re base weapons.
Ah right okay. Then yeah that’s odd. Can we expect to see changes to stats of weapons that are in this book in our next book? Or does this show us what we can expect from our next book, do you think?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, another random thought; would it be too much for all orks to receive an extra wound? Boyz get 2, Nobz get 3, Mega Nobz get 4, etc.
Not that I think Orks are under powered, just in response to marines all going up a wound, and just more of a pondering.
some bloke wrote: Also worth noting (unless I'm reading it wrong) that a perils result means the power fails, even if it's a high one. Think it's in the perils section - so +3 on a weirdboy is maybe not so great!
Ya it only fails if the caster dies as a result of perils. The weirdboyz 4 wounds mean he'll still get "shadows in the smoke" off 92.2% of the time if he's on full health (I run a painboy nearby to heal him up each turn) the probability of a successful cast does decreases as the weirdboyz wounds decrease.
If the weirdboy is down to 1w I recommend not running the risk of the sawbones ability failing and causing the painboy to take the last wound even if it is hilariously Orky. You can still spend 1cp to use the healing strat to heal without the risk of killing him.
Bigshootas are free across the board. At first i thought it was a grot tank misprint because it listed KMB as +10pts when its replacing a bigshoota, but the other units that have an option to get a Bigshoota (e.g. Kannonwagon) doesnt have a pricetag for it at all.
That cant be intended. Theres no way GW makes the bigshoota free, even if that would be one way to improve it (cant complain about it sucking if its literally not infringing on my listbuilding lol)
edit: and before anyone says "if its not listed in the back but its on the datasheet then it needs a faq" no, it doesnt because the top of the page for points says "Weapons and other wargear not listed in a units entry cost no additional points to include in that unit"
I really think bigshootas are free now. Which is mega annoying because that means grottanks/megagrottanks are still overpriced lol
Might be intended - I have suggested this change in the past as well. Big shootas aren't actually that valuable and newer vehicles don't have the option to take them off anyways. It just brings the few units with optional big shootas like BW or boyz in line with nauts or scrapjets.
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Tiberius501 wrote: Also, another random thought; would it be too much for all orks to receive an extra wound? Boyz get 2, Nobz get 3, Mega Nobz get 4, etc.
Not that I think Orks are under powered, just in response to marines all going up a wound, and just more of a pondering.
There was a thread here on dakka about this just recently. Essentially, 30 2W models are not a good idea, you would have to give orks a major overhaul if they went that route.
1-2 Big shootas, you can' t give away for free is a fair price. They are useless.
Big shootas start to be ok on scrapjets, where you found 4 of them and 2 of the, hit' s on 4+. This dakka can do something. But Trukk one Big Shoota I have to pay and do not use at all to faster the game?
Jidmah wrote: You are a decade too late for that. Orks have been losing options left and right ever since 7th.
Yeah, no kidding. I wonder how he would feel if he looked back at the options we had back in 5th edition. Looted Wagons, Burnas on Big Meks, SAG on Bikes, Old Zogwort, Wazdakka, old school ramshackle rules, hell even bosspoles! I always loved being able to give Cybork bodies to Meganobz with Mad Dok Grotsnik.
Jidmah wrote: You are a decade too late for that. Orks have been losing options left and right ever since 7th.
omg
I didnt start untill a few months ago i didnt know we lost so much. Although i knew there were looted tanks once.
Tiberius501 wrote: Ah right okay. Then yeah that’s odd. Can we expect to see changes to stats of weapons that are in this book in our next book? Or does this show us what we can expect from our next book, do you think?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, another random thought; would it be too much for all orks to receive an extra wound? Boyz get 2, Nobz get 3, Mega Nobz get 4, etc.
Not that I think Orks are under powered, just in response to marines all going up a wound, and just more of a pondering.
With the IA book, they didnt actually list the statline for the wargear unless it was exclusive to that model like the Supa-kannon, Gigashoota, liftadroppa, etc. Same thing with unit rules like Waaagh!, Speedwaaagh!, Keepin' Order, Breakin' Heads. This means when our codex does come around and these thing recieve any changes we wont have outdated stats for those weapons published in the IA, which is a good way of doing it.
Big shootas is an ok change, an individual one wont add up to much but across the army it will certainly help and for Boyz it will actually push for the Boyz to take the special weapons which should be encouraged for Orks. Do you think a squad of Boys would leave behind a big shoota? Thats the most unorky thing ever, theyd take it for the noise, recoil and sheer amount of lead coming out of it.
Also looking at a triple kill-tank list. I got 3 blue battle fortresses so I really want to use them (deathskull's). Not a Tournament winning army but could pack a decent punch. Also going to get a warbike warboss and a KFF-big mek but after that I'am a little stuck.
I might pick 12 tankbusta's, 10 flash gits and a few commando squads plus deathkopta's for objective grabbing. Really trying to find the balance between objective grabbing and damage output. I got some great looking grot's and want to add at least 2 units but dunno if I should get more boyz or simply stick with smaller objective grabbing units. Also might trade the tankbusta's with the boomer gun weagon.
Beardedragon wrote: I didnt start untill a few months ago i didnt know we lost so much. Although i knew there were looted tanks once.
On the plus side, you are unlikely to lose anything that's sold in plastic right now
What do you guys think will happen with Deffkoptas in the next codex? Will they get removed?
Right now we only have an ancient and outdated model with big shootas, and an OOP plastic model with rokkits from the 5th starter set if I recall correctly.
I have the latter and currently consider painting them, but I won't bother if they go the way of the Dodo as soon as I have finished them.
Beardedragon wrote: The Meka-dread really seem inferior to the Mega-dread. I mean +4 BS is good if you want to shoot, but its repair ability is meh at best i think. D3 repair? hmm. It should have retained the KFF, and then suddenly i would consider using it.
The mini ramming speed on Mega-dreads seem good although the old ability, though a bit risky to use too, was awesome too. you could charge across the battlefield.
An over all annoyance i have with the new Forge World codex book thing is how many special weapons were removed. I understand it had no model so it went away, but it also means that a lot of customizability went out the window. No Zap Gunz, no rattler kannons, no Supa scorchas, none of all those fun weapons that meant you could kit your units.
I think its sad that Orks had to get streamlined because they didnt have official models. Id rather they just.. made models then.
I agree it’s a double kick to the mekadread since it can’t repair itself, plus lost its 4+ fnp... it needs the kff back to be viable. If not you might as well ignore it and just play a dual klaw megadread which is decently priced..
Between buzzgrob and the megadread let’s hope they fix dreads in the next codex as they are a free points reductions into becomeing viable.
What do you guys think will happen with Deffkoptas in the next codex? Will they get removed?
Right now we only have an ancient and outdated model with big shootas, and an OOP plastic model with rokkits from the 5th starter set if I recall correctly.
I have the latter and currently consider painting them, but I won't bother if they go the way of the Dodo as soon as I have finished them.
I'm really hoping that they will release some more orky air support in a wave of goodness which would involve:
1: New Deffkoptas, functioning as squadrons of smaller, flying buggies. Hopefully with options other than expensive and good vs cheap and meh.
2: Replacement for Chinork, but a plastic kit. Again preferably with options - transport or gunship would be ace. Maybe a third with some crazy mek invention hanging underneath that teleports their targets to Gorks right armpit. Gotta love mek inventions.
3: Flying mek guns. that would be sweet. I feel Orks need more units with mek gun weapons, the smasha gun is the only one used elsewhere (wazbom blastajet) and I find it surreal that orks are content to let grots have the kustom mega-kannon whilst they bolt a boring krummy-kannon to their batlewagon.
Id like Orks to get more solid slug weapons, Mek Gunz are cool and all but they are for Meks. Id like lobbas back, high calibre weapons, 'eavy sluggas for Nobz (like what assault Intercessors get) and new ammo types.
Back during Assaut on Black Reach, Warboss Zanzag gave his boys special ammuniton to crack Space Marine armour. This was when Supa Shootas didnt exist as a model for our planes and was in the lore for Waaagh! Zanzag.
Have Orks with weird tech but let the other boys have some powerful shootas and kannons that isnt overly Meky.
If Koptas get a new kit, id like kopta rokkits to be more unique than 2 rokkit launchas, even if it had a rokkit kannon instead, and for the 2 big shootas to be their own thing. In DoW3 the big shootas were 4 barrels and the same was for the artwork in raid on kastorel-novem. Something akin to a smaller Deffstorm Megashoota or a Supa Shoota. Id also like to see the Deffkopta loose the vehicle keyword, if an ATV is a bike or a Skyweaver, why isnt a Deffkopta. it used to be a jetbike.
So with the commandos, are you guys actually fighting with them any or is their main job to just stand on objectives and secure things like Engage on All Fronts or fix teleport homers? Just wondering how they're typically used. They don't seem like they'd be able to kill much more than some unattended IG weapon teams or maybe a marine devestator squad if you brought the nob with klaw.
The 4+ FNP on the Meka was worthless anyway, since it degraded upon failing unless you got lucky as hell it would be gone the first big shot that hit you after saving maybe 1-2 wounds at best (more likely just 1).
I'll agree the lack of kff is annoying but not really that big of an issue imo.
As for models going away in the new codex, i kinda doubt any more are going away unless they rekit them. None of them have disappeared from the shop and none of them are having the Mek with KFF problem of the cast hating finecast so much they couldnt possibly keep the model.
They still are selling the model, and we have a precedent of recently produced models not losing their datasheets with the KFF mek.
IMO it's more likely that FW stuff goes away than the kopta.
I hope that you are right. The best case is that GW will make a new multipart kit with additional options and perhaps the option to build a different unit.
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deffrekka wrote: Id like Orks to get more solid slug weapons, Mek Gunz are cool and all but they are for Meks. Id like lobbas back, high calibre weapons, 'eavy sluggas for Nobz (like what assault Intercessors get) and new ammo types.
Back during Assaut on Black Reach, Warboss Zanzag gave his boys special ammuniton to crack Space Marine armour. This was when Supa Shootas didnt exist as a model for our planes and was in the lore for Waaagh! Zanzag.
Have Orks with weird tech but let the other boys have some powerful shootas and kannons that isnt overly Meky.
If Koptas get a new kit, id like kopta rokkits to be more unique than 2 rokkit launchas, even if it had a rokkit kannon instead, and for the 2 big shootas to be their own thing. In DoW3 the big shootas were 4 barrels and the same was for the artwork in raid on kastorel-novem. Something akin to a smaller Deffstorm Megashoota or a Supa Shoota. Id also like to see the Deffkopta loose the vehicle keyword, if an ATV is a bike or a Skyweaver, why isnt a Deffkopta. it used to be a jetbike.
Giving the 'koptas wing missiles and/or rokkit cannon would definitely give them some additional punch, just as long as they don't make them too expensive to use for contesting objectives.
its entirely possible they give the koptas the "buggy treatment" since the Chinork went away and the ork fanbase is very vocally pissed about that one and technically the only deffkopta model is that really old fugly finecast one, as the one we all use doesnt exist anymore.
Lets just hope they dont give us 6 again that keep stepping on each others toes... 1 for high RoF (Give us a gakton of shots for cheap, like 20 S5 AP1 shots for ~80pts) 1 for high damage, or the "Mek Kopta" essentially. 1 for transport, basic weapons. ala bigshootas maybe rokkits. Downside is knowing GW they'll probably make it a capacity of 6
3 distinct roles, most likely 3 kits unless they realize how dumb that was to have multiple monopose kits. They'd be different than the buggies because they fly, presumably innate deepstrike, and different weapons. Course other than the fly im not sure how you could make the Mek Kopta different from the Shokkjump i guess. If it was just as simple as "more shots but no BS3" it would still come down to whichever has better mathhammer and nothing else.
MrMoustaffa wrote: So with the commandos, are you guys actually fighting with them any or is their main job to just stand on objectives and secure things like Engage on All Fronts or fix teleport homers? Just wondering how they're typically used. They don't seem like they'd be able to kill much more than some unattended IG weapon teams or maybe a marine devestator squad if you brought the nob with klaw.
Exactly. It´s important to start building your list with the Objectives in mind in 9th and not like before just asking how good units are at killing/surviving. Kommandos are a perfect example of Deploy Scramblers enablers. Thus they have little point in costing extra unless you plan another role for them.
I also use Grotz for Scramblers. T1 they step over into midfield and do the midzone and T2 they step back and do deploy. T3 Kommandos enter and do opponents deploy. Max cheapness for 10 VP.
I have a hard time deciding on if I should keep my Deffkoptas with rokkits or convert them to big shootas before I paint them.
Big shootas are cheaper and thus a lesser waste of points when they get killed trying to go for objectives.
Rokkits have actual killing power, and when fielded in a unit of three, it might even make sense to use a stratagem on the unit to increase their power for one turn.
Bonde wrote: I have a hard time deciding on if I should keep my Deffkoptas with rokkits or convert them to big shootas before I paint them.
Big shootas are cheaper and thus a lesser waste of points when they get killed trying to go for objectives.
Rokkits have actual killing power, and when fielded in a unit of three, it might even make sense to use a stratagem on the unit to increase their power for one turn.
Magnets, my friend! It's always best to magnetise everything you can!
1) Mega Dread was fun, but largely a distraction carnifex. It took *just enough* extra resources to remove it that it gave him headaches. It also exploded, hitting like 9 units (mine and his).
2) MSU Killa Kans w/ Rockets actually did alright. Being able to operate independently without worry about morale, and with tin heads +1 to hit, they actually didn't too *too * bad. I would do it again if I ever did a spearhead tin head army.
3) Kannonwagon was freaking awesome. I think this unit is a winner.
4) Big Trakk still is interesting, but how it played in the game, a trukk would have probably done the same and saved points.
5) Deff Dreads, even hitting on 2s, can really, really whiff.
6) I wish we had another way of giving Mega Nobs a 3+ to hit that wasn't the waaaagh banner, cause man it ruled.
Overall, though, a Walker heavy Tin head army is really fun. I recommend.
I also use Grotz for Scramblers. T1 they step over into midfield and do the midzone and T2 they step back and do deploy. T3 Kommandos enter and do opponents deploy. Max cheapness for 10 VP.
Sorry, but you do Scramblers wrong. Midfield have to be done 6” away from any deploy. You can Deploy Scramblers in your deploy T1 and than march forward to move whole grot unit 6” away = 2 turns of march, because you can' t advance + do action in one turn.
My workflow is:
1x10 grots - do scramblers T1 in my deploy
2x5 kommandos without nob - T2 and T3 in midfield and enemy deploy. And die, or I hide them behind the corner to do All fronts, or charge some Leman Russ or whatever to cripple his shooting for a turn.
1x5 kommandos - to fight for low guarded objectives T3+ or solve a troubles in my deployment.
And i don' t understand, why the orks should deploy some damned scramblers. I call it Deploy Fungus. So even I' m defeated, orks will rise again!
Hi I plan to build a Kill Tank out of a Baneblade hull, but I am a bit confused about the Giga Shoota, what exactly is this weapon. From the pictures I have found of the FW model it looks like a bunch of medium size barrels. Someone who knows?
Nora wrote: Hi I plan to build a Kill Tank out of a Baneblade hull, but I am a bit confused about the Giga Shoota, what exactly is this weapon. From the pictures I have found of the FW model it looks like a bunch of medium size barrels. Someone who knows?
It pretty much is a bunch of barrelled weapons strapped together, so there isn't a distinctly uniform model type for it. So it's some you could easily kitbash/convert from gun bits lying around.
Nora wrote: Hi I plan to build a Kill Tank out of a Baneblade hull, but I am a bit confused about the Giga Shoota, what exactly is this weapon. From the pictures I have found of the FW model it looks like a bunch of medium size barrels. Someone who knows?
Well, it' s like a Shoota. But bigger. Yeah, bigger than Big Shoota. Even bigger than Supa Shoota or Mega Shoota. Simply - Giga Shoota. A lot of medium size barrels is fine, but if we' re speaking about some conversion, I will give a try to something like giga gatling. Mega Shoota is a gatling from small gatlings. So let' s try something giga gatling from gatlings from gatlings. Honestly, I don' t like oficial version so much... it looks like... not enough dakka?
Nora wrote: Hi I plan to build a Kill Tank out of a Baneblade hull, but I am a bit confused about the Giga Shoota, what exactly is this weapon. From the pictures I have found of the FW model it looks like a bunch of medium size barrels. Someone who knows?
Well, it' s like a Shoota. But bigger. Yeah, bigger than Big Shoota. Even bigger than Supa Shoota or Mega Shoota. Simply - Giga Shoota. A lot of medium size barrels is fine, but if we' re speaking about some conversion, I will give a try to something like giga gatling. Mega Shoota is a gatling from small gatlings. So let' s try something giga gatling from gatlings from gatlings. Honestly, I don' t like oficial version so much... it looks like... not enough dakka?
I imagine you could make it look pretty good depending on what gun barrels you use, for a rotary barrel, the Riptide Gatling Cannon works pretty well. But this is a good point of reference IMO:
Sooo... Got to play around with a bunch of forgeworld stuff...
Mostly incursion sized games. Been trying out the new bikerboss squiggoth and the nob warbikers.
Bikerboss got immensely better. +1attack, tougher and got the right keywords. Played bin once as evil sunz... Wow... With squigtires and sunz trait he got 18" movement plus 1 to advance and charge... essentially giving him a threat range of 23 -38 FREAKING INCHES
T8 with the warlord trait is really good. All but the highest tier anti-tank weapons will only wound him on 4's, also great against powerfist wielding S4 guys. But it doesn't make him invulnerable... He will still die if left alone but it will take a big part of the opponent's firepower...
Next were the bikers... They cost 5 points less than before, so they make an ok distraction unit. Equip them with bigchoppas and they can even threaten stuff. Low footprint, extremely fast but not so durable with an ok punch and good enough dakka to plink off a wound or two... Make em another 5 points cheaper and they will be a good unit again.
The squiggoth.... Damn... I really want to like this guy because I always want to field my conversion... He got better... T8 goes a long way, so he can keep up with T8 spam. But that's it generally... He got tougher. 3+ save is good, but he still lacks punch. Compared to a bonebreaker, the squiggoth lacks behind because he costs more and doesn't do that much.
The nice thing is his howda however... Bering able to move and still shoot at full BS is great... But the two units that would benefit most are lootas (which are lackluster to begin with) and flashgitz (great, but massively overpriced)
Next I wanna try the big trakk as a substitute for a trukk.
Does anyone have experience with that? 15points for extra movement, extra wounds and 2bigshootaz instead of one doesn't seem as bad... But imo the trukk is overpriced to begin with... So yeah.. idk
If this has been mentioned somewhere else I am sorry. But I was looking over the legends for orks and found my old 5th edition friend the ork Lobba. It is listed at a whopping 8 points per gun. You can have them in groups up to 5 with 48" range, 4+ to hit heavy d6str 5 ap 0 damage 1 and can target units that it cannot see. for 40 pts this seems like a steal for 5d6 str 5 shots at bs 4+ and has dakka dakka dakka, this seems like it might be a decent option. Keep in mind I have not really played much since 7th edition so the dex may have far better options now, but on paper this seems like a deal.
Lobba used to be great because it was cheap blast, which had a habit of ignoring cover and causing excessive hits with barrage. It offset the fact they had basically no ap.
Now that things have more wounds and a good save, plus it on average has less hits, lobbas arent as great. I used to always have a squad of 5 and they'd consistently delete a squad of marines when they fired, they'd hit that often.
Vineheart01 wrote: Lobba used to be great because it was cheap blast, which had a habit of ignoring cover and causing excessive hits with barrage. It offset the fact they had basically no ap.
Now that things have more wounds and a good save, plus it on average has less hits, lobbas arent as great. I used to always have a squad of 5 and they'd consistently delete a squad of marines when they fired, they'd hit that often.
Exactly. Right now it's a chaff clearer at best, and we have way more cost effective options in our current non-Legends roster that also actively help with board control. Given how aggressive your army needs to be to contest mid-board objectives, the extra range and ignoring LoS isn't as useful as you'd think it would be.
They would have to make Lobbas have more shots and some measure of AP before it would be worth considering, and even then Smasha Gunz would likely beat them out for points efficiency.
I'm assuming there's been no further hints as to who the upcoming codexs are beyond deathguard? 2 mystery codexes coming next year that are thought to be dark angels and someone else right?
Just keen to see if the design philosophies seen in necron and marines continues.
tulun wrote: Lobbas in boom boys are a bit better -- getting +1 STR, +1 AP to the tune of STR 6, AP-1, Damage 1.
But I doubt it's enough to justify taking a boom boys detachment.
If it was an extra damage on top of that it would push them into usable territory given how D2 is effectively the norm with all the marines running around the place nowadays. As is S5 and S6 are almost interchangeable, only the AP really is useful.
yeah 1D is really only a good weapon these days if its in sheer ridiculous mass.
Which oddly enough orks are NOT a stupid high rate of fire army, despite how people view us. Melee yes, shooting, actually its just lootas and shoota boyz everything else is pretty tame RoF wise
Vineheart01 wrote: yeah 1D is really only a good weapon these days if its in sheer ridiculous mass.
Which oddly enough orks are NOT a stupid high rate of fire army, despite how people view us. Melee yes, shooting, actually its just lootas and shoota boyz everything else is pretty tame RoF wise
I think it's largely because GW always wants to give Orks random shot weaponry if possible. For a long time before our 8th ed codex, the deffstorm megashoota for our Gorkanaut was 3D6 shots instead of the flat 18 now. Burnas are still bizarrely only D3 shots. Same thing for Lootas, who would really benefit from having a flat 3 or 2 shots like regular autocannons. They're slowly starting to move away from random D6 shots for Ork weapons, but it still pales in comparison to a lot of other armies. Somehow they equate bad accuracy with random shots, when it should actually be the other way around for armies like marines, who are usually hyper accurate with 3+ to hit with rerolls, but have a crazy flat rate for the number of shots.
Bonde wrote: I have a hard time deciding on if I should keep my Deffkoptas with rokkits or convert them to big shootas before I paint them.
Big shootas are cheaper and thus a lesser waste of points when they get killed trying to go for objectives.
Rokkits have actual killing power, and when fielded in a unit of three, it might even make sense to use a stratagem on the unit to increase their power for one turn.
Magnets, my friend! It's always best to magnetise everything you can!
Good point, it shouldn't be that hard to magnetize a couple of big shootas and rokkits to go on each deffkopta.
I just always play them with rokkits. I just hate having big shootas on them - rokkits are likely to do nothing, big shootas are guaranteed to do nothing.
Jidmah wrote: I just always play them with rokkits. I just hate having big shootas on them - rokkits are likely to do nothing, big shootas are guaranteed to do nothing.
That was my previous point. Even if they make big shootas free, it will be like not having a ranged weapon on them.
Tomsug wrote: Big Trakk - I tried it last week and I was happy with it. Holds more, go faster and even killed 2 guardsman. But 1 game is too less to judge.
I liked especially the shape. Low profile keeps him in cover, large footprint control more area and blocks the enemy movement pretty well.
I actually quite like the idea of the Big Trakk as a juiced up Trukk. The mobility, wounds and big shoota is welcome for the 20pts extra you pay for it. Its just annoying its a Heavy Support in that configuration when it feels more like a Fast Attack or even a Dedicated Transport. I havent worked out what id use it to transport yet but for its cost I like it. With the rise of Eradicators and other AT options cropping up in 9th, the lower toughness doesnt matter all that much as whatever is out there will most likely kill a Battlewagon as easily as a Big Trakk and atleast they will overkill the Trakk with Eradicators.
Tomsug wrote: Big Trakk - I tried it last week and I was happy with it. Holds more, go faster and even killed 2 guardsman. But 1 game is too less to judge.
I liked especially the shape. Low profile keeps him in cover, large footprint control more area and blocks the enemy movement pretty well.
I actually quite like the idea of the Big Trakk as a juiced up Trukk. The mobility, wounds and big shoota is welcome for the 20pts extra you pay for it. Its just annoying its a Heavy Support in that configuration when it feels more like a Fast Attack or even a Dedicated Transport. I havent worked out what id use it to transport yet but for its cost I like it. With the rise of Eradicators and other AT options cropping up in 9th, the lower toughness doesnt matter all that much as whatever is out there will most likely kill a Battlewagon as easily as a Big Trakk and atleast they will overkill the Trakk with Eradicators.
I agree, big trakks should go to dedicated transport, and should also be able to be fielded in heavy support with the big guns. Simple rule could let this happen, saying can be dedicated but dedicated can't take big guns. Or separate the datasheets to big trakk & Guntrakk (and give us guntrukks, they would be so cool!)
Jidmah wrote: I just always play them with rokkits. I just hate having big shootas on them - rokkits are likely to do nothing, big shootas are guaranteed to do nothing.
They are great regardless.
I've had so much success with Deff Koptas with *any* loadout. The rockets are nice if you want that utility pick, but having them as cheap as possible also makes it less painful to throw them away.
The Big shootas hit like a wet noodle, but for the 2-3 MSU koptas I bring, could those 30-45 points be used elsewhere? Probably. And I still get a unit that is just so bloody annoying.
Tomsug wrote: Big Trakk - I tried it last week and I was happy with it. Holds more, go faster and even killed 2 guardsman. But 1 game is too less to judge.
I liked especially the shape. Low profile keeps him in cover, large footprint control more area and blocks the enemy movement pretty well.
I actually quite like the idea of the Big Trakk as a juiced up Trukk. The mobility, wounds and big shoota is welcome for the 20pts extra you pay for it. Its just annoying its a Heavy Support in that configuration when it feels more like a Fast Attack or even a Dedicated Transport. I havent worked out what id use it to transport yet but for its cost I like it. With the rise of Eradicators and other AT options cropping up in 9th, the lower toughness doesnt matter all that much as whatever is out there will most likely kill a Battlewagon as easily as a Big Trakk and atleast they will overkill the Trakk with Eradicators.
I agree, big trakks should go to dedicated transport, and should also be able to be fielded in heavy support with the big guns. Simple rule could let this happen, saying can be dedicated but dedicated can't take big guns. Or separate the datasheets to big trakk & Guntrakk (and give us guntrukks, they would be so cool!)
We used to have Guntrukks way back during the raid on kastorel-novem IA book most if not all new Ork players dont really realise how much Ork players lost in terms of units, characters and wargear! Wazzdakka was my boy way back in 4th! And all he is now is just a bit of fluff
Vineheart01 wrote: i even kitbashed a relatively accurate model for wazdakka eons ago.
He was awesome. Still pissed they removed him.
For whatever reason, GW will pump out endless captain/lieutenant variants but god forbid they give some HQ character options for other xenos factions that aren't centerpiece models. His fluff was always hilarious too, being able to singlehandedly take down a warlord titan by crashing through its void shields and into its cockpit. Classic Ork solution.
Vineheart01 wrote: i even kitbashed a relatively accurate model for wazdakka eons ago.
He was awesome. Still pissed they removed him.
For whatever reason, GW will pump out endless captain/lieutenant variants but god forbid they give some HQ character options for other xenos factions that aren't centerpiece models. His fluff was always hilarious too, being able to singlehandedly take down a warlord titan by crashing through its void shields and into its cockpit. Classic Ork solution.
Sadly that's not a one off any more. A random nob does it in a novel by nicking a Shokkjump Dragsta and porting through the void shields. Technically he does it better I guess as he's not on fire after. (Is that better? I dunno.)
Ah yes IA 8, the book that really got my kitbashing juices flowing. Dear GW, Orks do not need a model to have rules, we need rules so that we can kitbash the models!
Jidmah wrote: I just always play them with rokkits. I just hate having big shootas on them - rokkits are likely to do nothing, big shootas are guaranteed to do nothing.
That was my previous point. Even if they make big shootas free, it will be like not having a ranged weapon on them.
What are you talking about? a Twin big shoota averages 2.16 hits, 1.44 hits and 0.48 wounds against Space Marines per turn! that is amazing dmg (****SARCASM****)
I've always felt Big shootas should have 6 shots not 3.
I dont understand why GW takes rules away that doesnt have models. Vast majority of orks would buy multiple kits from other armies to kitbash those units, or even just multiple other ork units to kitbash it.
Kitbashing from total scrap isnt as common as people think.
That wazdakka i have took pieces from like 5 boxes lol
Vineheart01 wrote: I dont understand why GW takes rules away that doesnt have models.
Vast majority of orks would buy multiple kits from other armies to kitbash those units, or even just multiple other ork units to kitbash it.
Kitbashing from total scrap isnt as common as people think.
That wazdakka i have took pieces from like 5 boxes lol
Even my builds from mostly scrap and trash still use a hefty amount of bitz.
Not caught up on the thread, but in 8th I was playing an inquisition player who routinely had a 10-man unit buffed to a 2++.
I was taking 10-man Nobz plain for mass attacks (maybe dual choppa, I can't remember) to just bypass the INV with as many wounds on the small footprint as I could fit in. I haven't played 9th yet so I assume the viability of his unit has lessened given Ob Sec?
Going forward I wouldn't want them to necessarily be a shooting unit but instead something with a viable threat and maybe freely armed with Big Choppas. Also access to a Skarboy like strat could be interesting if you could do mass attacks cheaper than just PKs. It is clear in elite-creep they have been left behind.
Jidmah wrote: I just always play them with rokkits. I just hate having big shootas on them - rokkits are likely to do nothing, big shootas are guaranteed to do nothing.
They are great regardless.
I've had so much success with Deff Koptas with *any* loadout. The rockets are nice if you want that utility pick, but having them as cheap as possible also makes it less painful to throw them away.
The Big shootas hit like a wet noodle, but for the 2-3 MSU koptas I bring, could those 30-45 points be used elsewhere? Probably. And I still get a unit that is just so bloody annoying.
Mind you, there really isn't a rational behind. I just irrationally hate the big shoota loadout, because whenever I run it, I wished it was was a pair of rokkits or a KMB (R.I.P.) instead. I'd rather drop a kopta/gear elsewhere than skip my rokkits, and I will suicide them regardless
Jidmah wrote: Mind you, there really isn't a rational behind. I just irrationally hate the big shoota loadout, because whenever I run it, I wished it was was a pair of rokkits or a KMB (R.I.P.) instead. I'd rather drop a kopta/gear elsewhere than skip my rokkits, and I will suicide them regardless
I'm not even an Ork player and I miss Koptas with Rokkits/KMB and Killsaws as cheap flanking threats. That plus Deffrolla Wagons loaded with Burna Boyz tank shocking something and laying 15 templates over it for enough hits to melt almost anything.
Beardedragon wrote: If forge world kannonwagon has free big shootas, hopefully the regular GW versions, like gunwagon will have them free too when codex drops.
Right now a kannon wagon has free big shootas, but the gunwagon does not.
Has the FW model have option to NOT have the big shootas?
If not the cost is baked into model cost. Similarly if weapon is upgradable the point cost will show DIFFERENCE between weapons(you have weapon that costs 10 pts and can upgrade it to 15 pts, point cost sheet will show upgrade as +5 pts)
And free big shoota if there's option to have 0...x big shootas would be bad idea from game design POV. Who WOULDN'T take free big shootas then
What's so bad about people always taking four big shootas all the time?
It essentially just allows people who have their wagons modeled in a different way to have less than four. I'm fairly sure all my big shoota gunners ended up being converted to other models, and you can only fit two on top and one on the 'ard case.
Also looking at a triple kill-tank list. I got 3 blue battle fortresses so I really want to use them (deathskull's). Not a Tournament winning army but could pack a decent punch. Also going to get a warbike warboss and a KFF-big mek but after that I'am a little stuck.
I might pick 12 tankbusta's, 10 flash gits and a few commando squads plus deathkopta's for objective grabbing. Really trying to find the balance between objective grabbing and damage output. I got some great looking grot's and want to add at least 2 units but dunno if I should get more boyz or simply stick with smaller objective grabbing units. Also might trade the tankbusta's with the boomer gun weagon.
Any advice?
I am also trying to make a list with multiple Kill Tanks, and so far, until I get my bitz for the 3rd Kill tank, I will have to make due with only two.
This means two aux superhavy detachments (costing the hefty sum of 6 cp, just like a superheavy detachment with Titanic units in it, but the units don't get the evil sunz trait benefits, but that is ok).
I think the investment is worth it, because of the extreme tankyness of a 275 points gigashooter kill tank.
The list I dislike the least is this Evil sunz one:
DETACHMENT : Auxiliaire Super-H number 2
Lord of War1 : [FW] Kill Tank(1*275), Giga Shoota [275]
Total detachment : 275
ARMY TOTAL [1999]
Why ? Well because visions of the smoke make a kill tank quite threatening (shooting phase + assault phase), and because a Warboss on Warbike + a Battlewagon can rush up the board and charge stuff from far away, along with the kill tanks (especially if you drop the shooting with
the gigashooters to run + charge using the bikerboss aura). You can (theoratically) play cagey then in one spread out and assault stuff.
You can support these charges with da jumping boyz, with the evil sunz trait, we all know how reliable a boyz charge is.
So basically the plan is to send relatively durable stuff down the opponent's throat turn 1 (or charge the midfield units he may send if that cheeky git gets first turn and tries to occupy the midfield), as well as boyz (which are not very durable, but at least they block enemy movement quite well).
And why we do that, we try to outscore our opponent by deplying scramblers, by engaging on all fronts, and by trying to spread out on these primary objectives to hold more than our opponent.
Of course harlequins and a few other slippery armies will crush this plan with ease (harlquins have the tools to dispose of our kill tanks in short order), but I want to try it out anyway.
The 2 Kill Tanks and the Forktres BWagon means 48 wounds (toughness 8, ramshackle, KFF 5++ for first and perhaps second turn), and the Froktress 16 more wounds (5++) carrying 20 boyz in it. A total of 64 tougness 8 wounds !
And lets not forget the T8 biker boss with 8 wounds and a 4++ !
The list also has 62 boyz (42 footslogging boyz, 20 boyz in the forktress), and the Waagh banner will ensure the kill tanks and the boyz will be able to hit decently.
We have the mandatory 2*5 kommandos and the kopta to reliably do the 2 sec missions orks are pretty good at: engage on all fronts and deploy scramblers, as well as help with primaries. 3rd mission will be chosen on the spot.
Grots will deploy first scrambler, but perhaps I should just take another 5 kommandos instead, i don't really know.
Jidmah wrote: I just always play them with rokkits. I just hate having big shootas on them - rokkits are likely to do nothing, big shootas are guaranteed to do nothing.
They are great regardless.
I've had so much success with Deff Koptas with *any* loadout. The rockets are nice if you want that utility pick, but having them as cheap as possible also makes it less painful to throw them away.
The Big shootas hit like a wet noodle, but for the 2-3 MSU koptas I bring, could those 30-45 points be used elsewhere? Probably. And I still get a unit that is just so bloody annoying.
Mind you, there really isn't a rational behind. I just irrationally hate the big shoota loadout, because whenever I run it, I wished it was was a pair of rokkits or a KMB (R.I.P.) instead. I'd rather drop a kopta/gear elsewhere than skip my rokkits, and I will suicide them regardless
I get it. They are in a really bad spot. It's really hard to justify paying points for them, although I generally like having big shootas for free. My recent run of a kannonwagon, I appreciated just having some extra free dakka, and I don't mind them on megatrakks.
I really hope they get a lot of love next codex. More shots, rend, and possibly a damage upgrade (if it's our analogous heavy bolter) would go a long way to making a bad weapon actually pretty decent, given we seem to be stuck with either them or rockets.
Given the context of "I want a small, cheap Fast Attack choice that goes really fast for board control purposes, even if damage potential is low," it sounds like Deffkoptas are still better than minimum size units of Stormboyz at their ridiculous 12ppm? Or is there more to be said for Stormboyz with their deepstrike ability and being ObSec in a Deathskullz army?
KommissarKiln wrote: Given the context of "I want a small, cheap Fast Attack choice that goes really fast for board control purposes, even if damage potential is low," it sounds like Deffkoptas are still better than minimum size units of Stormboyz at their ridiculous 12ppm? Or is there more to be said for Stormboyz with their deepstrike ability and being ObSec in a Deathskullz army?
To be honest, they don't really do the exact same thing. As you've noted, Stormboys can also get obsec... and they can also perform actions. Since they can also get a Saw / Klaw, they also can bloody certain targets.
Deff Koptas imo do the following:
1) Screen, be it Deep strike, smite, move blocking, etc.
2) Engage on all fronts. This can probably be done turn 1 too for a measly cost of 35 points, as they can auto advance 20/23". The Evil suns version, cheekily, can move 46" for 1 CP.
3) Tag. With their speed / fly and the ability to do ramming speed, it is trivial for them to tag some annoying targets. I've had some really clutch ramming speeds too to clear out move blocking vehicles.
Deff Koptas also have a much better defensive profile than 5 stormboyz. T5, 4 wounds, 4+ save actually requires a decent amount of bolter fire OR a proper heavy weapon to really deal with efficiently. This can be compounded by KFF or DS invul save.
Deff Koptas also have a much better defensive profile than 5 stormboyz. T5, 4 wounds, 4+ save actually requires a decent amount of bolter fire OR a proper heavy weapon to really deal with efficiently. This can be compounded by KFF or DS invul save.
Koptas as vehicle can also be Loot It! targets, offering a friendly unit a snazzy +1 save.
Yeah, tagging has always been a big strength of them. Our sisters player nearly went insane when I kept tagging his big blobs with a single kopta each.
Jidmah wrote: I just always play them with rokkits. I just hate having big shootas on them - rokkits are likely to do nothing, big shootas are guaranteed to do nothing.
That was my previous point. Even if they make big shootas free, it will be like not having a ranged weapon on them.
What are you talking about? a Twin big shoota averages 2.16 hits, 1.44 hits and 0.48 wounds against Space Marines per turn! that is amazing dmg (****SARCASM****)
I've always felt Big shootas should have 6 shots not 3.
We have that in Warbikers, but I can confidently tell you it's not a solution, from having blown More Dakka on a squad of 10 enough times in an attempt to weight of fire a handful of marines in cover (pre-2W of course) and been rewarded with 2-3 casualties out of some 80 hits or so
Jidmah wrote: I just always play them with rokkits. I just hate having big shootas on them - rokkits are likely to do nothing, big shootas are guaranteed to do nothing.
That was my previous point. Even if they make big shootas free, it will be like not having a ranged weapon on them.
What are you talking about? a Twin big shoota averages 2.16 hits, 1.44 hits and 0.48 wounds against Space Marines per turn! that is amazing dmg (****SARCASM****)
I've always felt Big shootas should have 6 shots not 3.
We have that in Warbikers, but I can confidently tell you it's not a solution, from having blown More Dakka on a squad of 10 enough times in an attempt to weight of fire a handful of marines in cover (pre-2W of course) and been rewarded with 2-3 casualties out of some 80 hits or so
Well Warbikers dont have a single big shoota.... they have 2 dakkaguns which are 2 short ranged big shootas and even then 6 shots per bike doesnt add up to much.... 2 hits, 1 wound against your standard primaris which then he will probably pass all whilst we pay a hefty cost for our bikes compared to other factions and what they get rules, wargear and synergy wise. 27ppm is quite a lot for not much staying power or hitting power, hell our bikes arent even the fastest. A CSM biker is 28ppm, a Reaver 20ppm, Windrider 20ppm (30 with a shuriken cannon), Shining Spear 35ppm, Skyweaver 55ppm, Tomb Blade 25-30ppm, Vertus Praetor 95ppm, SM Bike 30ppm, RW Black Knight 40ppm, Outrider 45ppm, Atalan Jackals 15ppm, Serberys Raiders 16ppm, Sulphur Hounds 20ppm.
We arent exactly cheap. 3pts more gets you a SM biker with 1 extra wound, all the perks of being a SM with AoD, a flat 6" advance and better chapter tactics/strats in addition to just a better statline right out of the gate.
I dont think just increasing shots will work, some if not most of datasheets kind of need fundimental changes. First off just make exhaust cloud innate, our bikers have no special rules as it is unlike all these other bike units. Why do we have to pay a CP to make 1 bike unit puff out more smoke when all bikes should be gunning exhaust like its going out of style? If outriders get a charge mechanic, surely ork bikes should? Choppas need a AP, dakkaguns need some teeth.
Deffkoptas need a change too, they are great as 1 man units for objectives but 35pts for a 4 wound model that gives away Bring it Down and is an easy way to Grind them Down is super silly and it can be designed to be more than just a throwaway roadblock/secondary scorer. It needs to be a (jet)bike again. And (with all speed freak keyworded units) should have Exhaust Cloud baked into its rules. Give it a proper scout move instead of the outflank, give it some weapons worthy of firing and why arent the spinnin' blades atleast AP1.
I dont think just doubling the shots on our units is the right way to improve things. Id like to see big shootas be 4 shots with an AP of 1 atleast. Currently, an ironhail heavy stubber puts the big shoota to shame which is just sad.
I agree, I was using the Dakkaguns as an easy example of how just increasing the number of shots doesn't help - we already have a unit armed with the equivalent (range aside) to 6 shot Big Shootas, and we can see how just adding more shots is not sufficient to overcome our low BS and lack of AP. That said, yea, they're not exactly cost effective, you could afford two boyz with 6 shot Big Shootas for the price of one warbikers.
Yeah it's hard to deny that warbikers are in an abysmal place right now. As an assault unit they fail due to only having weak, low AP attacks. As a tank they're far to flimsy for their price to justify. As a shooting unit they lack accuracy and punch to really do anything against the weakest units. Pretty much everything they could do a big unit of shootaboyz with Da jump would be my preferred choice.
Maybe we'll luck out and this weekend's reveals will be a shiny ork codex for us to sink our fangs into.
Jidmah wrote: I just always play them with rokkits. I just hate having big shootas on them - rokkits are likely to do nothing, big shootas are guaranteed to do nothing.
That was my previous point. Even if they make big shootas free, it will be like not having a ranged weapon on them.
What are you talking about? a Twin big shoota averages 2.16 hits, 1.44 hits and 0.48 wounds against Space Marines per turn! that is amazing dmg (****SARCASM****)
I've always felt Big shootas should have 6 shots not 3.
We have that in Warbikers, but I can confidently tell you it's not a solution, from having blown More Dakka on a squad of 10 enough times in an attempt to weight of fire a handful of marines in cover (pre-2W of course) and been rewarded with 2-3 casualties out of some 80 hits or so
Ohh trust me I know. But if a standard Big shoota was assault 6 than at 5pts it would be worth its value (ish). And Imagine a Deffkopta with 12 shots, with DDD that is averaging 1 wound a turn against a SM stat line. I can only imagine the shock on a persons face when you tell them your Scrapjet gets 24 S5 shots, half of which are BS4
Not saying this would fix the issue, but its a step in the right direction. Conversely, what they might do is give us the Heavy bolter treatment and just make them D2, which has a similar effect as doubling ROF. I would prefer 6 shots and -1 AP as opposed to D2.
Jidmah wrote: I just always play them with rokkits. I just hate having big shootas on them - rokkits are likely to do nothing, big shootas are guaranteed to do nothing.
That was my previous point. Even if they make big shootas free, it will be like not having a ranged weapon on them.
What are you talking about? a Twin big shoota averages 2.16 hits, 1.44 hits and 0.48 wounds against Space Marines per turn! that is amazing dmg (****SARCASM****)
I've always felt Big shootas should have 6 shots not 3.
We have that in Warbikers, but I can confidently tell you it's not a solution, from having blown More Dakka on a squad of 10 enough times in an attempt to weight of fire a handful of marines in cover (pre-2W of course) and been rewarded with 2-3 casualties out of some 80 hits or so
Ohh trust me I know. But if a standard Big shoota was assault 6 than at 5pts it would be worth its value (ish). And Imagine a Deffkopta with 12 shots, with DDD that is averaging 1 wound a turn against a SM stat line. I can only imagine the shock on a persons face when you tell them your Scrapjet gets 24 S5 shots, half of which are BS4
Not saying this would fix the issue, but its a step in the right direction. Conversely, what they might do is give us the Heavy bolter treatment and just make them D2, which has a similar effect as doubling ROF. I would prefer 6 shots and -1 AP as opposed to D2.
Personally I wouldnt want 6 shot big shootas. It just becomes tedious rolling that many dice a turn for not much gain, I already watch marine players roll buckets of dice and it isnt fun. The big shoota needs stopping power and as orks we lack shooting with AP. Flashgitz fill that void currently but outside of them we dont have much AP shooting that isnt tied to mek guns or expensive units. The other thing they could do with big shootas to imitate the feel of mass shots is something like the boomstikks, +1 to hit at half range or whatever they shot at is -1 to hit as they get surpressed (make a strat like with the Skystalkers for admech).
A big shoota is strapped to pretty much everything, you dont want it to be oppressive and you have to think about it in regards to other shootas, what happens to a supa shoota? A dakkagun? Deffguns? 6 shots AP1 on mass would invalidate even more lootas and to some extent bikers as your just past a threshold of too many shots with AP.
If boyz instead got more special weapons options (like a new kit hopefully) that added burnas/deffguns/big choppas then we could have dedicated squads to take on 2 wound infantry or your guard equivalents
And if anyone says orks should be rolling buckets of dice.... that hasnt been a thing for our shooting for a long long time that's imperial armies that do that
The Big Shoota could go and be Orky the other GW approved away. 1d6 shots, AP d3, Dd3 with all other stats staying the same. Sometimes you get 6 shots, AP -3, D3 other times 1 shots, AP -1, D1. It's fun because it's random.
*Note that this is pure sarcasm and not an actual idea anybody should embrace.*
Jidmah wrote: What's so bad about people always taking four big shootas all the time?
It essentially just allows people who have their wagons modeled in a different way to have less than four. I'm fairly sure all my big shoota gunners ended up being converted to other models, and you can only fit two on top and one on the 'ard case.
I'm sure you are fine with giving free rules for opponents then?
If it's not obvious why free rules with zero downsides you can "choose" to take is bad then no idea. If you don't want unit to pay anything it should just have 4 big shoota period without "option" to take 0 or 4.
It's basic game design ABC. If you support 0 point cost 0 downside upgrades you would make for super crappy game designer.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: that would be disgusting. It would make any attack with a bigshoota take about twice as long to resolve than it currently does.
Random can be fun, but random can also be extremely annoying.
Amen. Less dice rolling TYVM. Slows down, makes harder to get point cost right as well.
Canadian 5th wrote: The Big Shoota could go and be Orky the other GW approved away. 1d6 shots, AP d3, Dd3 with all other stats staying the same. Sometimes you get 6 shots, AP -3, D3 other times 1 shots, AP -1, D1. It's fun because it's random.
*Note that this is pure sarcasm and not an actual idea anybody should embrace.*
Big shootas/dakkaguns simply need to be AP-1. Makes also sense, since they are S5 and quite big.
Maybe with a stratagem to make them AP-2 and D2, like the Sisters' blessed bolts. That could be fun on a Gunwagon or a 5 man squad of Kanz. Alternatively AP-2 or +1 to hit or damage if they fire within half range could be nice as well.
I don't agree with the ever ongoing "stuff needs to be more killy/durable" debate. The Deffkopta commentary sums it up quite well in comparison. There you want a cheap and movable tool to shut down enemy unit x for a turn. Whatever it does in combat is irrelevant. Warbikes are in that region too as they have a larger footprint despite less cost efficient durability. If they started to shoot abit harder they´d be competing with buggies for a role that´s already filled out well imo.
Scactha wrote: I don't agree with the ever ongoing "stuff needs to be more killy/durable" debate. The Deffkopta commentary sums it up quite well in comparison. There you want a cheap and movable tool to shut down enemy unit x for a turn. Whatever it does in combat is irrelevant. Warbikes are in that region too as they have a larger footprint despite less cost efficient durability. If they started to shoot abit harder they´d be competing with buggies for a role that´s already filled out well imo.
Then it might aswell have no guns or melee? If the sole reason for it to be viable is to only score secondaries and tie up units until it premature destruction then its a bad unit design. Warbikers had this issue before the new buggies even came out and nobody was taking them then or praising whatever merits they have.
"Wot's faster than a Warbuggy, more killy than a Warbike, and flies through da air like a bird? I got no bleedin' idea, but I'm gonna find out." Do you think the Mek wants his contraption to literally do no damage? A lot of our units are stuck a couple of editions behind in terms of what they were designed to do. Warbikers and Deffkoptas were from an age where bikes ruled king, but they have kept their statline and wargear from that edition which doesnt merry up with 8th and 9th and with loosing options and taking their rules into a strat that only affects 1 unit a turn, they just arent good. Units should have more in them than just doing and objective and taking up boardspace. You know what else takes up the board, shoots and fights well? Outriders. Skyweavers. How come these bikes can do multiple things and we have to settle for yeah we just like blocking a bit of board for a turn.
Its pretty short sighted to just go yeah they are fine with what they can do now instead of improving them because as it stands they arent that great at it, they are just the only option in that field. An Attack Bike is leagues ahead of Deffkopta and it is only 45pts...... The same goes for Kommandos, I remember the days a 15man squad would arrive from outflank and take the backfield, killing artillery, heavy weapon squads and just causing mayhem, now we just take them as 5 man squads, no Nob, just to do scanners/scramblers, linebreaker, and nab objectives. Thats cool and all but Kommandos should be wrecking havoc, being terror troops, not what they currently are now.
This is the problem with Orks in general, a lot of the units just dont do what they are intended for and are instead delegated to roles because they are cheap (but not really that cheap compared to other factions). If GW (and thats a big if) gave us as much love as the SM codex, id be happy, hell id settle for Necron tier. I watched an all buggy list on Art of War last night and it was so painful to watch. Scrapjets that barely kill guardsmen and fail to kill tanks, cool, then they just get blasted off the board.
We shouldnt settle for the rules that we have right now and it fine to want better for our units outside of pts drops.
Big shootas should just have a rule which states "Big shootas work by spraying an enormous amount of bullets at the enemy. This wall of bullets inevitably hits something."
2 profiles:
36" range D3 shots S5 AP0 D1 auto-hits.
18" range D3 shots S5 AP-1 D2 auto-hits.
less rolling (D3 hits, then rolls to wound and saves). Decent output. Like a long-ranged burna-skorcha. Make it a Heavy weapon so you can't advance and then shoot, auto-hitting negates all the other effects of heavy.
After couple of games I have some summaries from playing my list (6x smg, 3x MSJ, 2xSJD, wazboom, bommer, bw with 10 boyz + character, trukk/bigtrakk with 10 boyz + character, 3x5 kommandos and 10 gretchkins.)
1. I skipped wartrike and nothing happens. Just more points for something else and more space in deploy. Maybe in another list, where advance and charge is more important. But I don' t want to go to enemy deploy. I want to hold objectives and be hidden.
2. Main purpose of 2 Jets is to die and soak enemy fire with -1 to hit and 5++. Sometimes they do something, but if you go second and enemy is clever enough, they die. Take 4 could be more interesting.
3. Scrapjets are workhorse with nice amount of dakka and opponent see it and want to kill it. And scrapjets are thin like a paper. Well heavy paper, but still paper. Crucial seems to be keep scrapjets alive. This means mostly very deep deploy far far away. So it takes 3 turns to drive to close combat or a 1 turn even to range. And 3 turns is hard to survive. So now I really prefer slightly more squig tyres againts corkscrew.
4. Smashaguns - big topic. 48” is definitely important and I use it every time despite very dense terrain. On other hand, about 2-3 of them in every turn can' t shoot at anything or make some junk shooting to the bunch of conscripts or whatever. On other other hand, 6 smashagunz is perfect point per wound screener. 5-6 smashagunz screen your deploy for cheap, holds a lot and shoot long range that force enemy to move just somewehre. But suffer to lack of targets. This means, not all of them are effective. This means, sometimes kills literally nothing. Their 3” move drives me crazy in my super mobile list more and more. So dilema....
Tomsug wrote: Let' s play hammer and stop writing to santa.
After couple of games I have some summaries from playing my list (6x smg, 3x MSJ, 2xSJD, wazboom, bommer, bw with 10 boyz + character, trukk/bigtrakk with 10 boyz + character, 3x5 kommandos and 10 gretchkins.)
1. I skipped wartrike and nothing happens. Just more points for something else and more space in deploy. Maybe in another list, where advance and charge is more important. But I don' t want to go to enemy deploy. I want to hold objectives and be hidden.
2. Main purpose of 2 Jets is to die and soak enemy fire with -1 to hit and 5++. Sometimes they do something, but if you go second and enemy is clever enough, they die. Take 4 could be more interesting.
3. Scrapjets are workhorse with nice amount of dakka and opponent see it and want to kill it. And scrapjets are thin like a paper. Well heavy paper, but still paper. Crucial seems to be keep scrapjets alive. This means mostly very deep deploy far far away. So it takes 3 turns to drive to close combat or a 1 turn even to range. And 3 turns is hard to survive. So now I really prefer slightly more squig tyres againts corkscrew.
4. Smashaguns - big topic. 48” is definitely important and I use it every time despite very dense terrain. On other hand, about 2-3 of them in every turn can' t shoot at anything or make some junk shooting to the bunch of conscripts or whatever. On other other hand, 6 smashagunz is perfect point per wound screener. 5-6 smashagunz screen your deploy for cheap, holds a lot and shoot long range that force enemy to move just somewehre. But suffer to lack of targets. This means, not all of them are effective. This means, sometimes kills literally nothing. Their 3” move drives me crazy in my super mobile list more and more. So dilema....
Some of us cant play games due to ongoing lockdowns or even attend little tournaments but ive spent most of the lockdown watching batreps, browsing forums and reading articles to get a good understanding of what the edition is like and how Orks are in the grand scheme of things. ive probably watched more batreps than games played during the whole of 8th tabletop titans (my favourite), table top tactics, art of war (my least favourite), hellstorm wargaming, etc around 8-10 batreps a week, so I think we should be allowed to talk and theorise what we could get for our Codex, who knows it might be us this January as the first xenos Codex!
As to your points:
1.) As long as the Warboss on Warbike exists the Deffkilla is obslete. Cheaper, better, more options and relics to boot, smaller profile, and access to Da Biggest Boss.... The Deffkilla youd only take if you dont have a Warboss on Warbike....
2.) You cant have 4 Wazbom Blastajets? Unless your wanting to take 2 Burna-bommers with them which is quite a lot of pts invested in the sky. I actually value the Wazbom as a good source of Dakka with it being essentially 3 Mek Gunz (albeit 2 of the guns are BS5) with insane movement that you cant really hide from unless your buried deep with a ruin with 4 walls. It also gives way less bring it down points than 3 Mek Gunz and can reliably help score max Engage on all Fronts. This is paired with a nice bonus of being a KFF mounted vehicle with a large base to provide the Boyz with some 5++ for a turn or 2. I think its kind of criminal to assign the Wazboms to death, youd be better off with the Burna-boomers for that and atleast you can get the most value out of Flying 'Eadbutt.
3.) Scrapjets are cool and all but they arent that durable, if your going to deploy them as far back as possible wouldnt it be better off to put them in strategic reserves/tellyporta? If your waiting til turn 3 at best to charge your better off keeping them permanently safe and risk a 9" charge and also atleast you can bypass some LoS blocking terrain. Just ensure you deal with the screens before hand so you arent zoned out. Its probably better that way instead of spending 2-3 turns either advancing and shooting at -1 (unless your Evil Sunz ) and/or getting blown to zoggin' hell.
4.) Again, you can strategic reserves the lil gits. Saves them from being blasted and bleeding Bring it Down right out of the gates and you can forgo that 3" move and get some clear angles of fire, being put up to 6" from the board edge is pretty much double your movement anyway hahaha. Also atleast they can move and fire now without a heavy penalty, so be greatful for that. And again, the Wazbom kind of performs the firepower of 3 Mek Gunz anyway, they just dont hold the back field aswell (though in my experience and seeing the new D2 Heavy Bolters, they dont hold the back for long as it is ).
Jidmah wrote: You could just have 3 wazbomms and a burnabommer to suicide T1.
i don’t think our planes transitioned well into 9th edition... I think they transitioned very badly in fact. Negs to hit not adding up, and the need to hold objectives (we don’t have the most durable units in the game, to say the least) from 1st to last turn means our paper thin planes are not great
I'm soon to play my first game of 9th, and i looked hard at my favs Dakkajet, and Burnabommer, but the smaller board really scares me , Id hate to die just because i cant stay on the board.
The Idea was 2x wazboom and 2x bommer. Average enemy has anti tank firepower to take down 2 jets, no more. And due the Eadbutt, he kills first the bommer that are cheaper and than you have 1 turn with your “6 smashaguns” in his deploy to make a mess and Engage all fronts. That is fine. Plus you gain 2 turns of “safety” for the rest of your army. For example - Scrapjets.
But the price for this setting is huge. Something like 670p? That is a massive part of your army. But well, on other hand, it' s 670p that silence the enemy fire and die, or annihilate him. Show me the army that survive 2 burnas Eadbutts and 2 turns of 2 wazboom fire and still be effective.
Scrapjets in DS are safe, but useless. I need their rockets and shootas to kill. I keep them back to shoot to his frontline units first. A lot of 24” anti tank in the field is common, so do not rush forward and be out of range of part of his army works fine for me. Time to charge comes later, when the field is cleared.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Don' t speak about the covid... it make's me-..... sad. I play with one of my mates in his studio with the right table. So I 've played againts IG last 7 games or something like it... better than nothing but, you know....
I have 2 roommates that play and i can never get one of them to play lately because even though it happened 4 months ago he's still pissed at himself for having a rage fit and breaking a squad of Pterraxii beyond repair.
Other plays Harlies and Tau....fun...
I have 2 roommates that play and i can never get one of them to play lately because even though it happened 4 months ago he's still pissed at himself for having a rage fit and breaking a squad of Pterraxii beyond repair.
Other plays Harlies and Tau....fun...
I know that feel. I'm basically stuck hosting games at my place since my area is currently a red zone for COVID atm. I have a Sisters player and a Harlequin/Aeldari player and that's it. At best if I'm lucky I can play tabletop simulator to get a few more games in with friends who have moved but it's a pretty stale 40k environment for me right now. I'm getting a lot painted in the interim though.
Trying to make Mek Gunz work with Hordes and Vehicles as well.
What I am doing for a few games now is to deepstrike a unit of 6 turn 2.
That way i don't have to worry about that poor movement and can bring the firepower where i need it to be.
Also they don't get blown apart before they can do anything or get tied up in CC forever, which is quite hard to prevent as you can just use desperate breakout once.
So far i have to say I'm surprised how well this works.
Also with this I can actually deploy well hidden and don't care too much about the first turn.
Have to say Squigtire Scrapjets look more and more attractive to me. Dragstas can jump out of hiding with no problems but to get 3 Scrapjets good cover turn 1 and still have something to shoot at after moving is quite hard with 10".
I even considered making them Evil Sunz to improve this even further.
First turn can still be pretty devastating, and I try to build lists more so I can a) live with going second and b) minimise secondaries.
With the smashas tellyporting and the 6 buggies hiding and taking out the most important anti tank of my opponent has actually worked in parts and I had games where Bring it Down was not maxed out against me.
I tried pairing that with 3 x 30 boys to distract the opponent and flip objectives, as well as doing the same with 100+ gretchin for scoring / screening, but that worked just in parts.
After all mixing both kind of targets is very suboptimal, but i kinda want it to work.
Played Green Tide a lot the last months and won every game, but its boring as hell. :(
What would you combine with 3 Dragstas, 3 Scrapjets and 6 Smasha Gunz?
If I had the models i'd try tellyporting 6 KBB, that might be neat to add some screening / infantry cleaning power.
They are kinda ok against Primaris as well.
Tried tellyporting Morkas/ Gorkas, which is fun for sure but quite a point investment.
Jumping Meganobs are cool and I love playing them, but every failed charge is a death sentence.
You could teleport in a battle wagon with deffrolla. This is also a way to use nobz as they can get out when it explodes and gain +1 to their armor through the strat.
Going back to the discussion of ork flyers, I agree that they did not transition well. I do think that taking a burnabomber so you can go and crash it somewhere still works but don’t look for your flyers to survive long.
Grotrebel wrote: Trying to make Mek Gunz work with Hordes and Vehicles as well.
What I am doing for a few games now is to deepstrike a unit of 6 turn 2.
That way i don't have to worry about that poor movement and can bring the firepower where i need it to be.
Also they don't get blown apart before they can do anything or get tied up in CC forever, which is quite hard to prevent as you can just use desperate breakout once.
So far i have to say I'm surprised how well this works.
Also with this I can actually deploy well hidden and don't care too much about the first turn.
Have to say Squigtire Scrapjets look more and more attractive to me. Dragstas can jump out of hiding with no problems but to get 3 Scrapjets good cover turn 1 and still have something to shoot at after moving is quite hard with 10".
I even considered making them Evil Sunz to improve this even further.
First turn can still be pretty devastating, and I try to build lists more so I can a) live with going second and b) minimise secondaries.
With the smashas tellyporting and the 6 buggies hiding and taking out the most important anti tank of my opponent has actually worked in parts and I had games where Bring it Down was not maxed out against me.
I tried pairing that with 3 x 30 boys to distract the opponent and flip objectives, as well as doing the same with 100+ gretchin for scoring / screening, but that worked just in parts.
After all mixing both kind of targets is very suboptimal, but i kinda want it to work.
Played Green Tide a lot the last months and won every game, but its boring as hell. :(
What would you combine with 3 Dragstas, 3 Scrapjets and 6 Smasha Gunz?
If I had the models i'd try tellyporting 6 KBB, that might be neat to add some screening / infantry cleaning power.
They are kinda ok against Primaris as well.
Tried tellyporting Morkas/ Gorkas, which is fun for sure but quite a point investment.
Jumping Meganobs are cool and I love playing them, but every failed charge is a death sentence.
Well Mek Gunz work well in a vehicle list mainly because you're already likely giving potential max points for Bring it Down anyways, so it's not like you're giving away free points like you would be in a Horde style list. I'm surprised you can deep strike 6 of them, because in most of my games, by T2 most of the board is already spread out on multiple fronts and having that big a footprint would be difficult to get LoS for all of them since they all need to be within 6" of each other when they deploy.
It seems like you're having trouble figuring out what to do with troops. With Mek Gunz and the vehicle route, you're more or less stuck with trukk boyz. Gretchin are not worth the trouble and die to a breeze.
I've been reading a lot about Ork flyers not being worth it so far. Definitely some truth there given that I haven't seen any lists in tournies using them. Is the Wazbom Blastajet worth it in a vehicle heavy list given that it gives us a more mobile KFF? The Morkanaut is too slow IMO to keep up with a buggy list and the Wazbom has a big base to ensure at least 3 buggies are in range. Or is it just too expensive/fragile for that role?
Canadian 5th wrote: The Big Shoota could go and be Orky the other GW approved away. 1d6 shots, AP d3, Dd3 with all other stats staying the same. Sometimes you get 6 shots, AP -3, D3 other times 1 shots, AP -1, D1. It's fun because it's random.
*Note that this is pure sarcasm and not an actual idea anybody should embrace.*
Big shootas/dakkaguns simply need to be AP-1. Makes also sense, since they are S5 and quite big.
Maybe with a stratagem to make them AP-2 and D2, like the Sisters' blessed bolts. That could be fun on a Gunwagon or a 5 man squad of Kanz. Alternatively AP-2 or +1 to hit or damage if they fire within half range could be nice as well.
The Heavy Bolter is the Imperial equivalent of the Big Shoota. 3 shots, -1AP 2dmg. 10pts. 3 shots, 2 hits, against T4 3+ thats 1.33 wounds and 0.67 unsaved wounds which average 1.33dmg a turn.
For the same price we can currently take 2 big shootas, basically 7 shots (DDD) 2.33 hits, 1.55 wounds and .52dmg a turn.
if they gained -1 AP the numbers chance to .77dmg a turn, or a bit more than 1/2 what the Heavy Bolter does. So the question becomes, do you add more shots or do you give it 2dmg on top of getting -1AP. Otherwise yet again, the ork equivalent weapon is significantly worse. And from an ork perspective I think the correct answer is, give it more shots.
I know people some people don't like it, but I want more dice for my orkz, I can not stand that the official GW sanctioned DAKKA faction has less shots than the damn elite space marines, doesn't make any sense.
Canadian 5th wrote: The Big Shoota could go and be Orky the other GW approved away. 1d6 shots, AP d3, Dd3 with all other stats staying the same. Sometimes you get 6 shots, AP -3, D3 other times 1 shots, AP -1, D1. It's fun because it's random.
*Note that this is pure sarcasm and not an actual idea anybody should embrace.*
Big shootas/dakkaguns simply need to be AP-1. Makes also sense, since they are S5 and quite big.
Maybe with a stratagem to make them AP-2 and D2, like the Sisters' blessed bolts. That could be fun on a Gunwagon or a 5 man squad of Kanz. Alternatively AP-2 or +1 to hit or damage if they fire within half range could be nice as well.
The Heavy Bolter is the Imperial equivalent of the Big Shoota. 3 shots, -1AP 2dmg. 10pts. 3 shots, 2 hits, against T4 3+ thats 1.33 wounds and 0.67 unsaved wounds which average 1.33dmg a turn.
For the same price we can currently take 2 big shootas, basically 7 shots (DDD) 2.33 hits, 1.55 wounds and .52dmg a turn.
if they gained -1 AP the numbers chance to .77dmg a turn, or a bit more than 1/2 what the Heavy Bolter does. So the question becomes, do you add more shots or do you give it 2dmg on top of getting -1AP. Otherwise yet again, the ork equivalent weapon is significantly worse. And from an ork perspective I think the correct answer is, give it more shots.
I know people some people don't like it, but I want more dice for my orkz, I can not stand that the official GW sanctioned DAKKA faction has less shots than the damn elite space marines, doesn't make any sense.
I also feel like people are overestimating how much Big Shootas most armies take. Adding in a few more shots really isn't going to take THAT much more time. It's only really prevalent in lists with Trukks and Skrapjets, and even then 3 extra shots per unit isn't a big deal. Hell, it might even make it a relevant upgrade for boyz squads for once.
Tomsug wrote: The Idea was 2x wazboom and 2x bommer. Average enemy has anti tank firepower to take down 2 jets, no more. And due the Eadbutt, he kills first the bommer that are cheaper and than you have 1 turn with your “6 smashaguns” in his deploy to make a mess and Engage all fronts. That is fine. Plus you gain 2 turns of “safety” for the rest of your army. For example - Scrapjets.
But the price for this setting is huge. Something like 670p? That is a massive part of your army. But well, on other hand, it' s 670p that silence the enemy fire and die, or annihilate him. Show me the army that survive 2 burnas Eadbutts and 2 turns of 2 wazboom fire and still be effective.
Scrapjets in DS are safe, but useless. I need their rockets and shootas to kill. I keep them back to shoot to his frontline units first. A lot of 24” anti tank in the field is common, so do not rush forward and be out of range of part of his army works fine for me. Time to charge comes later, when the field is cleared.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Don' t speak about the covid... it make's me-..... sad. I play with one of my mates in his studio with the right table. So I 've played againts IG last 7 games or something like it... better than nothing but, you know....
I wouldnt say they are useless in reserves. Turn 1 most in not all armies just reposition, hiding assests behind obscuring terrain until someone makes the first move exposing themselves or ensuring that they themselves can get the drop on a target they can see and kill easily. So turn 1 say you go second, you cant get a bead on a juicy vehicle so instead the Scrapjet shoots into some screens, probably doesnt even kill the screen. Next turn because you had to commit your Scrapjets, the opponents AT reveals itself and you loose most of your buggies. So now you hide them out of LoS until turn 2 and even then they arent safe (board spanning charges, super fast shooter, artillery that ignores LoS), well guess what else does that with no risk of loosing buggies? Reserves.
They arent useless if they aint dead, you also get to dictate where that scrapjet goes.They are fairly slow as it is so if youre on a flank, your not getting on the other flank any time soon if a target presents itself. Reserves allows you to be on either side when the time calls for it. I wouldnt write off strategic reserves so quickly, ive seen it pay off so much and its not like buggy lists need all the CP anyway.
Canadian 5th wrote: The Big Shoota could go and be Orky the other GW approved away. 1d6 shots, AP d3, Dd3 with all other stats staying the same. Sometimes you get 6 shots, AP -3, D3 other times 1 shots, AP -1, D1. It's fun because it's random.
*Note that this is pure sarcasm and not an actual idea anybody should embrace.*
Big shootas/dakkaguns simply need to be AP-1. Makes also sense, since they are S5 and quite big.
Maybe with a stratagem to make them AP-2 and D2, like the Sisters' blessed bolts. That could be fun on a Gunwagon or a 5 man squad of Kanz. Alternatively AP-2 or +1 to hit or damage if they fire within half range could be nice as well.
The Heavy Bolter is the Imperial equivalent of the Big Shoota. 3 shots, -1AP 2dmg. 10pts. 3 shots, 2 hits, against T4 3+ thats 1.33 wounds and 0.67 unsaved wounds which average 1.33dmg a turn.
For the same price we can currently take 2 big shootas, basically 7 shots (DDD) 2.33 hits, 1.55 wounds and .52dmg a turn.
if they gained -1 AP the numbers chance to .77dmg a turn, or a bit more than 1/2 what the Heavy Bolter does. So the question becomes, do you add more shots or do you give it 2dmg on top of getting -1AP. Otherwise yet again, the ork equivalent weapon is significantly worse. And from an ork perspective I think the correct answer is, give it more shots.
I know people some people don't like it, but I want more dice for my orkz, I can not stand that the official GW sanctioned DAKKA faction has less shots than the damn elite space marines, doesn't make any sense.
I also feel like people are overestimating how much Big Shootas most armies take. Adding in a few more shots really isn't going to take THAT much more time. It's only really prevalent in lists with Trukks and Skrapjets, and even then 3 extra shots per unit isn't a big deal. Hell, it might even make it a relevant upgrade for boyz squads for once.
I think its more how many units can have Big Shootas. All the Walkers have access to them, and on the nauts its bolted on. You bikers essentially have 2 strapped to their bikes. Your Boyz can have up to 3 in a max squad. Your Deffkopta can have 2. Battlewagons, Big Trakks, even the Stompa. We arent taking them because they arent worth it, but if they made it worth it im sure we would take them in a heart beat. Like you said its our Heavy Bolter, but as Orks we always have worst or more costly versions that the Imperials get. Id be happy with Big Shootas and Dakkaguns being assault 4 str 5 AP1. It isnt an obscene volume of shots but its a nice step forward. Instead of 12 shots on your MTSJ or Morkanaut, you have 16 with some kick to them. 6 Shots I think is too much, 5 is a little much too especially if it sees not bump in cost.
I think its more how many units can have Big Shootas. All the Walkers have access to them, and on the nauts its bolted on. You bikers essentially have 2 strapped to their bikes. Your Boyz can have up to 3 in a max squad. Your Deffkopta can have 2. Battlewagons, Big Trakks, even the Stompa. We arent taking them because they arent worth it, but if they made it worth it im sure we would take them in a heart beat. Like you said its our Heavy Bolter, but as Orks we always have worst or more costly versions that the Imperials get. Id be happy with Big Shootas and Dakkaguns being assault 4 str 5 AP1. It isnt an obscene volume of shots but its a nice step forward. Instead of 12 shots on your MTSJ or Morkanaut, you have 16 with some kick to them. 6 Shots I think is too much, 5 is a little much too especially if it sees not bump in cost.
Getting AP1 and 1 more shots and no price increase moves them to 2 = 1 heavy bolter. so 8 shots 3.11 hits, 2.07 wounds and 1dmg vs T4 3+. Still 33% less effective vs a Heavy Bolter. Assault 5 is 10 shots, 3.88 hits, 2.59 wounds and 1.30dmg a turn, 0.03dmg less than a SM heavy bolter. So maybe Assault 5 -1AP 1dmg is the sweet spot.
Building this sucker. Anyone magnetize it before? It seems like you need to slot the shooter from the side. Which is awkward because the cannon mounts from the outside.
Although to be honest, I think the shooter is just better than the big cannon. I’d almost rather two cannon wagons over 1 Bursta Kill tank.
tulun wrote: Building this sucker. Anyone magnetize it before? It seems like you need to slot the shooter from the side. Which is awkward because the cannon mounts from the outside.
Although to be honest, I think the shooter is just better than the big cannon. I’d almost rather two cannon wagons over 1 Bursta Kill tank.
Looks great! Also, I'm kinda surprised that you have such a poor view of the big kannon. Given how much multi-wound models are running about I thought it was a decent choice, even if it's 50 points more expensive than the gatler.
In a sense i can understand why he'd prefer 2 kanonwagons.
They hit on 4s across the board
More wounds split between 2 units, T7 instead of T8 but also nowhere near meltas. Most weapons that are gonna hit it arent going to care its T7 instead of T8.
4D6 shots instead of 3D6
Only thing the Bursta Kannon really has over 2x Supas is its S10 AP-3 instead of S8 AP-2. Which is significant especially when our main problem child is T5 3W 3+sv, but i wouldnt call that a dealbreaker purely for the sheer range difference.
Killtank w/ Bursta has to be within 18" to hit on 4s, thats pretty dang close so its gonna get pummeled by every anti-tank out there.
tulun wrote: Building this sucker. Anyone magnetize it before? It seems like you need to slot the shooter from the side. Which is awkward because the cannon mounts from the outside.
Although to be honest, I think the shooter is just better than the big cannon. I’d almost rather two cannon wagons over 1 Bursta Kill tank.
Looks great! Also, I'm kinda surprised that you have such a poor view of the big kannon. Given how much multi-wound models are running about I thought it was a decent choice, even if it's 50 points more expensive than the gatler.
Some napkin math.
It seems like you only really wanna take the bursta *if* you really only face 3 wound marines or a heavy vehicle meta. The Giga is 50 points cheaper and actually holds up pretty well.
You can mitigate the giga's weakness as well with Wreckers as Deathskulls. Visions as Evil suns will also slap pretty damn hard with 30 shots, that can explode on 5s if need be.
Keep in mind, it's also 18% more expensive, and because shots are random, has a lot of variance. The Giga shoota is consistent. And the +1 to hit is at 18" vs 24", which I guarantee you will become relevant for such a chonky boy.
Edit: Math here is unsaved wounds, extrapolate from there vs multiwound models.
tulun wrote: Building this sucker. Anyone magnetize it before? It seems like you need to slot the shooter from the side. Which is awkward because the cannon mounts from the outside.
Although to be honest, I think the shooter is just better than the big cannon. I’d almost rather two cannon wagons over 1 Bursta Kill tank.
I mean, i'd say it depends on what you face. On paper the bursta is better against a bunch of targets, but the flat 30 shots and the ability to fire them point blank in tandem with the killtank's wonderful melee profile does make me lean towards dakka.
On the other other hand the Bursta does fill some roles wonderfully well. It's like a unit of tank bustas on crack.
tulun wrote: Building this sucker. Anyone magnetize it before? It seems like you need to slot the shooter from the side. Which is awkward because the cannon mounts from the outside.
Although to be honest, I think the shooter is just better than the big cannon. I’d almost rather two cannon wagons over 1 Bursta Kill tank.
I mean, i'd say it depends on what you face. On paper the bursta is better against a bunch of targets, but the flat 30 shots and the ability to fire them point blank in tandem with the killtank's wonderful melee profile does make me lean towards dakka.
On the other other hand the Bursta does fill some roles wonderfully well. It's like a unit of tank bustas on crack.
I think we have other good options to take instead, though.
Supa Kannon (Kannonwagon) is 2d6STR 8, AP-2, Flat 3 shots for 170 points. Hits on 4s at 60", and can hide behind obscuring terrain.
You can take 2 of them for roughly the cost of 1 Bursta Kill Tank.
Edit: One other interesting thing too, which I don't think I could math properly without some effort -- the Giga Shoota also never wastes damage from a feel no pain roll, where 1-2 damage could be wasted per Bursta Kannon shot.
I wonder how that would ultimately shift the math around.
cody.d. wrote: I can't remember, but Kannonwagons would fit under the lower casting value for Visions correct?
Correct.
They shred. I got the chance to test one out Sunday, and just based on how it did on that matchup alone, I would probably consider it an A tier unit for us.
Really does seem like you could make a decent artillery based army now with orks. Da boomer alongside 3 Kannon wagons, maybe a trio of dakka killtanks to take care of infantry killing and be frontline units
cody.d. wrote: Really does seem like you could make a decent artillery based army now with orks. Da boomer alongside 3 Kannon wagons, maybe a trio of dakka killtanks to take care of infantry killing and be frontline units
If you were looking to try out a <CLAN> that doesn't normally get play, Blood Axes would actually be really cool for that army.
The kannonwagons might actually stay outside of 18", so could actually get a 2+ save. In addition, that army is very susceptible to being tagged, which is no longer an issue, since the Wagons can fallback and shoot, and the Kill Tanks can fallback, shoot *and* charge, since titantic can fallback and shoot.
cody.d. wrote: Really does seem like you could make a decent artillery based army now with orks. Da boomer alongside 3 Kannon wagons, maybe a trio of dakka killtanks to take care of infantry killing and be frontline units
If you were looking to try out a <CLAN> that doesn't normally get play, Blood Axes would actually be really cool for that army.
The kannonwagons might actually stay outside of 18", so could actually get a 2+ save. In addition, that army is very susceptible to being tagged, which is no longer an issue, since the Wagons can fallback and shoot, and the Kill Tanks can fallback, shoot *and* charge, since titantic can fallback and shoot.
That's a really good point. For once we have units that don't want to be THAT close and have the range to take advantage of the BA rules. Huh, never think I'd see something viable with BA until we got a new codex, tanks are back on the menu boyz!
May have to mathhammer that out later. But yeah, making the kannon wagons to look like looted basilisks is also very fun fluffy BA style. Though I sort of feel the killtanks can fit into pretty much every single klan with relative ease.
There’s probably a real list there for beer hammer.
For extra lols and points add more grots and a weirdboy. Then not only are you launching shells at the enemy but random units of grots just to irritate and distract them as you bombard their lines while keeping your tanks out of close combat.
I'm glad I ordered 3 supakannon from FW now. Honestly my plan was a sort of tank list that could actually fight without much infantry, and I figured it was one of the only ways to really get much use out of blood axes. Keep in mind I doubt this would win a serious event, but it'd be funny to see. I call it "Kunnin but brutal but kunnin"
Big mek gets the finkin cap so he can either reposition the scrapjets and the bikerboss, or some of the gunwagons. The boyz go into deepstrike for 2cp total, you now have two mobs who can show up wherever as well as two small kommando squads for secondaries. Shokkjumps provide accurate fire and objectives. Boss and the scrapjets distract the enemy for your kannonwagons and Shokkjumps to kill things and your boys to grab objectives. Overall it might not be the best but I imagine it would throw your average player seriously off balance, as it is not what you think of for orks in the slightest. The sheer amount of unusual mobility and flexibility, along with most guns being bs4+ for orks is a cool combo, I'm excited to try it.
Spoiler:
Patrol
Big mek mega armor: KFF, PK, Kombi Rokkit, Finking Kap: Kunnin but brutal
X2 units of boyz: Nob w/pk and x18 boyz -2cp total if you decide to deepstrike both
X2 units of 5 kommandos
Squad of 3 Shokkjump dragstas with whirlygig -1 cp
Spearhead
Bikerboss: Warlord Brutal But Kunnin, da biggest boss -1 cp, da killa klaw
X3 megatrakk scrapjets w/ korkscrew -1cp
Gunwagon w/ Da boomer -1cp
X3 kannonwagon w/3 big shootas apiece if they stay free, if not don't bother with the big shootas
Yeah you burn 9 cp before the game even starts, that's definitely a bit of a flaw. But it's enough to do a clutch fight twice, supercharge kff, or bring back a boyz mob, which may be all you need. I'm not an expert on orks though, honestly 90% of this strategy is to mess with my local store as much as humanly possible, I know it's got some flaws.
MrMoustaffa wrote: I'm glad I ordered 3 supakannon from FW now. Honestly my plan was a sort of tank list that could actually fight without much infantry, and I figured it was one of the only ways to really get much use out of blood axes. Keep in mind I doubt this would win a serious event, but it'd be funny to see. I call it "Kunnin but brutal but kunnin"
Big mek gets the finkin cap so he can either reposition the scrapjets and the bikerboss, or some of the gunwagons. The boyz go into deepstrike for 2cp total, you now have two mobs who can show up wherever as well as two small kommando squads for secondaries. Shokkjumps provide accurate fire and objectives. Boss and the scrapjets distract the enemy for your kannonwagons and Shokkjumps to kill things and your boys to grab objectives. Overall it might not be the best but I imagine it would throw your average player seriously off balance, as it is not what you think of for orks in the slightest. The sheer amount of unusual mobility and flexibility, along with most guns being bs4+ for orks is a cool combo, I'm excited to try it.
Spoiler:
Patrol
Big mek mega armor: KFF, PK, Kombi Rokkit, Finking Kap: Kunnin but brutal
X2 units of boyz: Nob w/pk and x18 boyz -2cp total if you decide to deepstrike both
X2 units of 5 kommandos
Squad of 3 Shokkjump dragstas with whirlygig -1 cp
Spearhead
Bikerboss: Warlord Brutal But Kunnin, da biggest boss -1 cp, da killa klaw
X3 megatrakk scrapjets w/ korkscrew -1cp
Gunwagon w/ Da boomer -1cp
X3 kannonwagon w/3 big shootas apiece if they stay free, if not don't bother with the big shootas
Yeah you burn 9 cp before the game even starts, that's definitely a bit of a flaw. But it's enough to do a clutch fight twice, supercharge kff, or bring back a boyz mob, which may be all you need. I'm not an expert on orks though, honestly 90% of this strategy is to mess with my local store as much as humanly possible, I know it's got some flaws.
As a possible refinement what do you think of making the patrol evil sunz? the shokkjumps want to be advancing so it makes them more accurate, the boyz want to be charging so it makes them reliable, same with the Kommandos. If you don't intend to have the boss making vehicles advance and charge you can swap detachments with him and the mek for even FASTA charges from him.
I'm just glad I have an excuse to use my looted tanks as kannon wagons now. They've been collecting dust for a full edition, now at long last they get their explosive time in the sun.
Grotrebel - deathskulls scrapjets are far superior. Invu and rerolls shifts them to totaly different level. But I totaly understand what you mean. I tried Evil Sunz for the same reason as well. Not so good...
Well, I add to the core same like you 2 important parts
1. 3x5 kommandos to do secondaries
2. 2 transports with some infantry and character inside to move to the midle, sit on the objective die slowly, obsec etc. I think, it is an important task, to have some sitting ducks that holds in 9th.
Back to the scrapjets - deepstriking them is definitely an option. I try it today and write a feedback
Flyiers - there was a list with 4 flyiers from some tournament aprox 10-15 pages back. That inspired me. But since then nothing. That is right. But honestly, I play flyiers last 2 years and I like them. They fear enemy a lot, soak all fire but criple it little with -1 to hit and can do a huge damage. The fact I' ve found in 8th was, that you need 3 of them. They will kill you 2 in 1st turn and than you can do something. Due the changes in army building, I' ve skipped the 3rd flyier and keep myself on 2. And it is a margin solution.
However their mobility and now the Eadbutt gives them a great power totaly disrupt opponents plans and kill important stuff. That is the reason why everybody shoot at them. They are scared like a hell and they know why.
So one flyiers sucks 100%. Two are 50% and 4 is crazy option due the huge price. But crazy option needs to be tried. 4th jet is my project for January, so wait, I' ll write a report
I like tandem flyers like Wazbom with KFF and a Bomber. Decent durability, threatlevel and large footprint are all nice features. They´re a mix tool to control the opponents actions rather than board control or front line fighters.
cody.d. wrote: I sort of feel the killtanks can fit into pretty much every single klan with relative ease.
The issue is you need to take 3 to benefit from the klan abilities, so you can fit them in a super heavy detachment. Super heavy auxiliary detachment deletes LOW klan abilities; despite keeping the keyword, so you can give visions of the smoke to an evil sunz Kill Tank chosen in a super heavy aux detachment for example. Or Ghaz can give reroll 1s to hit to a goff kill tank (they are pretty good in cc these kill tanks).
Canadian 5th wrote: The Big Shoota could go and be Orky the other GW approved away. 1d6 shots, AP d3, Dd3 with all other stats staying the same. Sometimes you get 6 shots, AP -3, D3 other times 1 shots, AP -1, D1. It's fun because it's random.
*Note that this is pure sarcasm and not an actual idea anybody should embrace.*
Big shootas/dakkaguns simply need to be AP-1. Makes also sense, since they are S5 and quite big.
Maybe with a stratagem to make them AP-2 and D2, like the Sisters' blessed bolts. That could be fun on a Gunwagon or a 5 man squad of Kanz. Alternatively AP-2 or +1 to hit or damage if they fire within half range could be nice as well.
The Heavy Bolter is the Imperial equivalent of the Big Shoota. 3 shots, -1AP 2dmg. 10pts. 3 shots, 2 hits, against T4 3+ thats 1.33 wounds and 0.67 unsaved wounds which average 1.33dmg a turn.
For the same price we can currently take 2 big shootas, basically 7 shots (DDD) 2.33 hits, 1.55 wounds and .52dmg a turn.
if they gained -1 AP the numbers chance to .77dmg a turn, or a bit more than 1/2 what the Heavy Bolter does. So the question becomes, do you add more shots or do you give it 2dmg on top of getting -1AP. Otherwise yet again, the ork equivalent weapon is significantly worse. And from an ork perspective I think the correct answer is, give it more shots.
I know people some people don't like it, but I want more dice for my orkz, I can not stand that the official GW sanctioned DAKKA faction has less shots than the damn elite space marines, doesn't make any sense.
To be honest Heavy Bolters always had better AP than big shootas (AP4 vs AP5) and they've always been a bit more expensive. But since SM can have doctrines to boost the AP and now HB are D2 I don't see why big shootas shouldn't be AP-1. A weapon that costs 5 points sounds already fine with 3 S5 shots: 10 points D2 and Heavy vs 5 points D1 and Assault IMHO is fair, as long as both have AP-1. In the orky perspective, rather than firing more shots, the correct answer can be cheaper and without the penalty for moving and firing, since ork weapons are made from scrap and they don't really aim anyway.
SM are definitely able to bring massive firepower but pointswise we do have more dakka. A guy with a big shoota costs 13 points, a SM with a HB is 28, which means for the same points we can already have more than twice the shots comparing boyz with big shootas vs marines with heavy bolters, even if both weapons fire 3 shots each.
And I'm against rolling tons of dice with little effort. 6 Scrapjets already fire 84 big shootas shots (counting DDD) for the "great" result of 12 dead GEQ or 3 primaris. That's already a massive amount of dice rolling, I'd rather make it more deadly than doubling the shots. 168 dice to kill 20ish GEQs or 6 primaris? No thanks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Scactha wrote: I like tandem flyers like Wazbom with KFF and a Bomber. Decent durability, threatlevel and large footprint are all nice features. They´re a mix tool to control the opponents actions rather than board control or front line fighters.
They're both good options, I disagree with people saying they are not worthy in 9th. It's the dakkajet that probably aged, mostly because it lost the synergy with the archetype of the competitive 8th Freeboota list.
Canadian 5th wrote: The Big Shoota could go and be Orky the other GW approved away. 1d6 shots, AP d3, Dd3 with all other stats staying the same. Sometimes you get 6 shots, AP -3, D3 other times 1 shots, AP -1, D1. It's fun because it's random.
*Note that this is pure sarcasm and not an actual idea anybody should embrace.*
Big shootas/dakkaguns simply need to be AP-1. Makes also sense, since they are S5 and quite big.
Maybe with a stratagem to make them AP-2 and D2, like the Sisters' blessed bolts. That could be fun on a Gunwagon or a 5 man squad of Kanz. Alternatively AP-2 or +1 to hit or damage if they fire within half range could be nice as well.
The Heavy Bolter is the Imperial equivalent of the Big Shoota. 3 shots, -1AP 2dmg. 10pts. 3 shots, 2 hits, against T4 3+ thats 1.33 wounds and 0.67 unsaved wounds which average 1.33dmg a turn.
For the same price we can currently take 2 big shootas, basically 7 shots (DDD) 2.33 hits, 1.55 wounds and .52dmg a turn.
if they gained -1 AP the numbers chance to .77dmg a turn, or a bit more than 1/2 what the Heavy Bolter does. So the question becomes, do you add more shots or do you give it 2dmg on top of getting -1AP. Otherwise yet again, the ork equivalent weapon is significantly worse. And from an ork perspective I think the correct answer is, give it more shots.
I know people some people don't like it, but I want more dice for my orkz, I can not stand that the official GW sanctioned DAKKA faction has less shots than the damn elite space marines, doesn't make any sense.
To be honest Heavy Bolters always have better AP than big shootas (AP4 vs AP5) and they've always been a bit more expensive. But since SM can have doctrines to boost the AP and now HB are D2 I don't see why big shootas shouldn't be AP-1. A weapon that costs 5 points sounds already fine with 3 S5 shots: 10 points D2 and Heavy vs 5 points D1 and Assault IMHO is fair, as long as both have AP-1. In the orky perspective, rather than firing more shots, the correct answer can be cheaper and without the penalty for moving and firing, since ork weapons are made from scrap and they don't really aim anyway.
SM are definitely able to bring massive firepower but pointswise we do have more dakka. A guy with a big shoota costs 13 points, a SM with a HB is 28, which means for the same points we can already have more than twice the shots comparing boyz with big shootas vs marines with heavy bolters, even if both weapons fire 3 shots each.
And I'm against rolling tons of dice with little effort. 6 Scrapjets already fire 84 big shootas shots (counting DDD) for the "great" result of 12 dead GEQ or 3 primaris. That's already a massive amount of dice rolling, I'd rather make it more deadly than doubling the shots. 168 dice to kill 20ish GEQs or 6 primaris? No thanks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Scactha wrote: I like tandem flyers like Wazbom with KFF and a Bomber. Decent durability, threatlevel and large footprint are all nice features. They´re a mix tool to control the opponents actions rather than board control or front line fighters.
They're both good options, I disagree with people saying they are not worthy in 9th. It's the dakkajet that probably aged, mostly because it lost the synergy with the archetype of the competitive 8th Freeboota list.
Yeah I fully agree, I dont think Big Shootas should be over 4 shots, atleast keep them on par with Ironhail Heavy Stubbers and keep the price how it is now. 6 Shots will just inflate the time to roll and usually knowing Orks, amounts to not much gain. If they gave use some new toys to fight Primaris solely like a new Boyz unit that can take Big Choppas for every 5/10 models or gain access to a larger array of special weapons like Deffguns/Burnas.
Or what if they give Big Choppas a damage spill over mechanic to represent the Nob just making great cleaves with it. I think there is lots that GW COULD do in our new Codex, we just have to trust that they have revised our options and gave them a nice boost instead of leaving them how are are for countless editions.
I'm glad to hear about the kannonwagon being useful on the tabletop.
That option will give me a use for the looted Rhino with earthshaker gun that I built years back!
I think Choppas could use some AP, at least AP -1 on the charge. Seeing a bunch of Nobz bounce off a squad of Necron Warriors was quite dissapointing in my last game.
the fact that you can charge boyz across the field, lose most of them, and when you finally get there and start hitting, doing your thing, then it becomes meh due to no AP, that sucks.
Everyone seemingly has a lot of AP on melee weapons, why shouldnt we? Orks are made for attacking, not defending, so hopefully there will be a -1AP on Choppas, and -2AP on Big Choppas.
I also kinda feel like Mega Nobz should be toughness 5. A thought that occured to me was like, Maybe boyz 4, Nobz 5, Mega Nobz 5. In any case, Mega Nobz shouldnt stay at 4. Terminators who are only toughness 4 at least retain a good balistic skill, making them killy at all ranges. Mega Nobz with their Ballistic skill couldnt hit a barn in front of them, the least they could do would be more duable since their ranged powers are terrible and their movement is terrible. Or they could be given the Deepstrike ability by default instead.
I also dont understand why our regular ranged attacks have to hit on 5s. I was told we have a lot of shots to make up for it, but do we really have many more shots than anyone else? I dont feel like we do, so we just seem to have terrible shooting over all. Dakka Dakkas dont feel like they occur often enough for me to thinking BS 5 would make sense.
And to top that off, again, many ranged attacks we have dont even have -AP.
Beardedragon wrote: the fact that you can charge boyz across the field, lose most of them, and when you finally get there and start hitting, doing your thing, then it becomes meh due to no AP, that sucks.
Everyone seemingly has a lot of AP on melee weapons, why shouldnt we? Orks are made for attacking, not defending, so hopefully there will be a -1AP on Choppas, and -2AP on Big Choppas.
I also kinda feel like Mega Nobz should be toughness 5. A thought that occured to me was like, Maybe boyz 4, Nobz 5, Mega Nobz 5. In any case, Mega Nobz shouldnt stay at 4. Terminators who are only toughness 4 at least retain a good balistic skill, making them killy at all ranges. Mega Nobz with their Ballistic skill couldnt hit a barn in front of them, the least they could do would be more duable since their ranged powers are terrible and their movement is terrible. Or they could be given the Deepstrike ability by default instead.
I also dont understand why our regular ranged attacks have to hit on 5s. I was told we have a lot of shots to make up for it, but do we really have many more shots than anyone else? I dont feel like we do, so we just seem to have terrible shooting over all. Dakka Dakkas dont feel like they occur often enough for me to thinking BS 5 would make sense.
And to top that off, again, many ranged attacks we have dont even have -AP.
I think with Meganobs if they choose to be equipped with any ranged weapon they should get a gitfinda aswell, they have targeters on the guns. And if you give them the stikkbombs just allow them to fire them in additional to the shoota. That doesn't do much for them but it's a good start. I really think Meganobs should be a wound more than a Terminator. Space Marines always got their invun instead of the extra wound so it should remain that way. And I a strong believer that DDD should just gen extra hits, not attack rolls.
MrMoustaffa wrote: I'm glad I ordered 3 supakannon from FW now. Honestly my plan was a sort of tank list that could actually fight without much infantry, and I figured it was one of the only ways to really get much use out of blood axes. Keep in mind I doubt this would win a serious event, but it'd be funny to see. I call it "Kunnin but brutal but kunnin"
Big mek gets the finkin cap so he can either reposition the scrapjets and the bikerboss, or some of the gunwagons. The boyz go into deepstrike for 2cp total, you now have two mobs who can show up wherever as well as two small kommando squads for secondaries. Shokkjumps provide accurate fire and objectives. Boss and the scrapjets distract the enemy for your kannonwagons and Shokkjumps to kill things and your boys to grab objectives. Overall it might not be the best but I imagine it would throw your average player seriously off balance, as it is not what you think of for orks in the slightest. The sheer amount of unusual mobility and flexibility, along with most guns being bs4+ for orks is a cool combo, I'm excited to try it.
Spoiler:
Patrol
Big mek mega armor: KFF, PK, Kombi Rokkit, Finking Kap: Kunnin but brutal
X2 units of boyz: Nob w/pk and x18 boyz -2cp total if you decide to deepstrike both
X2 units of 5 kommandos
Squad of 3 Shokkjump dragstas with whirlygig -1 cp
Spearhead
Bikerboss: Warlord Brutal But Kunnin, da biggest boss -1 cp, da killa klaw
X3 megatrakk scrapjets w/ korkscrew -1cp
Gunwagon w/ Da boomer -1cp
X3 kannonwagon w/3 big shootas apiece if they stay free, if not don't bother with the big shootas
Yeah you burn 9 cp before the game even starts, that's definitely a bit of a flaw. But it's enough to do a clutch fight twice, supercharge kff, or bring back a boyz mob, which may be all you need. I'm not an expert on orks though, honestly 90% of this strategy is to mess with my local store as much as humanly possible, I know it's got some flaws.
As a possible refinement what do you think of making the patrol evil sunz? the shokkjumps want to be advancing so it makes them more accurate, the boyz want to be charging so it makes them reliable, same with the Kommandos. If you don't intend to have the boss making vehicles advance and charge you can swap detachments with him and the mek for even FASTA charges from him.
Good idea, hadn't thought of that. Was mainly thinking just pure blood axes from a thematic point and being able to just deepstrike the boyz but that could work well. Basically the idea was you have a ton of vehicles dedicated to killing things that can't be tied ip and the infantry don't need rides, they just show up wherever you need them, no pysker power or transports needed.
We are just in this extremely annoying period of Marines/Necrons getting "upscaled weapons and stats" but nobody else so it feels incredibly unfair.
I wish GW would stop doing this. I was semi fine with it with 8th because it was a major design shift initially but this time it just feels artificially forcing the same issue of "until you get your new codex, you suck"
Canadian 5th wrote: The Big Shoota could go and be Orky the other GW approved away. 1d6 shots, AP d3, Dd3 with all other stats staying the same. Sometimes you get 6 shots, AP -3, D3 other times 1 shots, AP -1, D1. It's fun because it's random.
*Note that this is pure sarcasm and not an actual idea anybody should embrace.*
Big shootas/dakkaguns simply need to be AP-1. Makes also sense, since they are S5 and quite big.
Maybe with a stratagem to make them AP-2 and D2, like the Sisters' blessed bolts. That could be fun on a Gunwagon or a 5 man squad of Kanz. Alternatively AP-2 or +1 to hit or damage if they fire within half range could be nice as well.
The Heavy Bolter is the Imperial equivalent of the Big Shoota. 3 shots, -1AP 2dmg. 10pts. 3 shots, 2 hits, against T4 3+ thats 1.33 wounds and 0.67 unsaved wounds which average 1.33dmg a turn.
For the same price we can currently take 2 big shootas, basically 7 shots (DDD) 2.33 hits, 1.55 wounds and .52dmg a turn.
if they gained -1 AP the numbers chance to .77dmg a turn, or a bit more than 1/2 what the Heavy Bolter does. So the question becomes, do you add more shots or do you give it 2dmg on top of getting -1AP. Otherwise yet again, the ork equivalent weapon is significantly worse. And from an ork perspective I think the correct answer is, give it more shots.
I know people some people don't like it, but I want more dice for my orkz, I can not stand that the official GW sanctioned DAKKA faction has less shots than the damn elite space marines, doesn't make any sense.
To be honest Heavy Bolters always had better AP than big shootas (AP4 vs AP5) and they've always been a bit more expensive. But since SM can have doctrines to boost the AP and now HB are D2 I don't see why big shootas shouldn't be AP-1. A weapon that costs 5 points sounds already fine with 3 S5 shots: 10 points D2 and Heavy vs 5 points D1 and Assault IMHO is fair, as long as both have AP-1. In the orky perspective, rather than firing more shots, the correct answer can be cheaper and without the penalty for moving and firing, since ork weapons are made from scrap and they don't really aim anyway.
SM are definitely able to bring massive firepower but pointswise we do have more dakka. A guy with a big shoota costs 13 points, a SM with a HB is 28, which means for the same points we can already have more than twice the shots comparing boyz with big shootas vs marines with heavy bolters, even if both weapons fire 3 shots each.
And I'm against rolling tons of dice with little effort. 6 Scrapjets already fire 84 big shootas shots (counting DDD) for the "great" result of 12 dead GEQ or 3 primaris. That's already a massive amount of dice rolling, I'd rather make it more deadly than doubling the shots. 168 dice to kill 20ish GEQs or 6 primaris? No thanks.
2 Boyz with big shootas with -1AP = 26pts compared to SM with Heavy bolter 28pts.
Heavy bolter is 3 shots, 2 hits, 1.33 wounds, .67 unsaved wounds for 1.33 dmg Boyz = 6 shots, 2.33 hits, 1.55 hits for .77dmg
That is why just giving Big shootas -1 isn't enough. The difference between them is 2pts but the dmg difference is the heavy bolter Marine being 72% better.
I understand that 5pts for 3 S5 shots sounds good but you have to factor in the piss poor BS and the durability issue. Both have 2 wounds, both are T4, the difference is the Marine is 3x more durable vs small arms fire while the orkz are twice as hard to kill with 2dmg weapons due to 2 models.
5 shots with -1 AP as I showed above is about equal with a Heavy bolter. The issue I see is that GW will probably than make Ork big shootas go up in price even though it doesn't make sense to.
Big Trakk is perfect. These +2”vs Trukk makes a significant difference between T1 objective taken or not.
And 2 Big shootas and spiked ram do some damage. Small, but help to be annoying and clear some last guardsmans etc. I really like it. Worth the points againts the Trukk.
I tried deepstriking Scrapjets and well, it makes sence. Not always but valid option. Keep them safe but lost a turn of fire. Deepstrike gets scrapjets close to the enemy and fast into CC so definitely with corkscrew. Today I used it a lot.
Kaptin Badrukk is a badass! Sit on the objective and killing the tanks with last wounds like the sitting ducks
The key to win with dragstas and scrapjets cover well, keep back and shoot on longer distance! Do not rush forward.
And generaly - holding 2 objectives is absolutely alright. You don' t need more. Keep 2 of them and shoot to one pr 2 others from the cover to deny them to your opponent. Nonsence rush to take third objective almost costed me a game today and I was almost tablet. I won on points from secondaries, because my 5 SMG and grots and the rest of the army controlled the board and succesfully deny opponent his secondaries. Just 9 points difference and thanks good screen, he failed Scramblers...
Loving that I can dust off my old looted wagons and rebrand them as bigtrakks or kannonwagons.
for 1030 points you can get a spearhead with 2 supa-kannon bigtrakks, 3 kannon wagons and a gunwagon with the boomer, with a KFF mek to try and support them or a weirdboy to cast shadows. I may be trying this out as a base for an army list!
He took meganobz with shootas instead of double saw, and the bull charge psy power for his weird boy... Why ??
The Bullcharge did pay off 2 times during the batrep due to charging through dense terrain giving the -2 and Bullcharge ignoring modifiers. Odd pick but it worked in this game.
The Meganobs and Nobs all had powerklaws except on the Stormboy Nob. I dont get this choice either, killsaws are the same price as powerklaws as a single and are just flat superior. My guess is that his models are modelled with Killsaws and Table Top Titans dont proxies. Adrian also didnt know Ghaz actually is affected by his own abilities due to the FAQ and that Warboss are indeed str 6 base and also Boss Nobs dont get an extra attack like normal sarges of other races (something I hope will change In the next codex...).
Overall it was a good game as usual from TTT. My favourite batrep channel out there. Necrons are just a bit too resilient it would seem and with reamination allowing you to congaline to objectives, it's hard to tackle a big blob of warriors unless you can guarantee killing them with 1 unit.
Well, eadbanger is nice in special scenarios - resilient t3 models like celestine, solitair or archons are really good targets... I'd never pick it for an all comers list though.
deffrekka wrote: The Bullcharge did pay off 2 times during the batrep due to charging through dense terrain giving the -2 and Bullcharge ignoring modifiers. Odd pick but it worked in this game.
The Meganobs and Nobs all had powerklaws except on the Stormboy Nob. I dont get this choice either, killsaws are the same price as powerklaws as a single and are just flat superior. My guess is that his models are modelled with Killsaws and Table Top Titans dont proxies. Adrian also didnt know Ghaz actually is affected by his own abilities due to the FAQ and that Warboss are indeed str 6 base and also Boss Nobs dont get an extra attack like normal sarges of other races (something I hope will change In the next codex...).
Overall it was a good game as usual from TTT. My favourite batrep channel out there. Necrons are just a bit too resilient it would seem and with reamination allowing you to congaline to objectives, it's hard to tackle a big blob of warriors unless you can guarantee killing them with 1 unit.
Agree, I rarely watch any battle reps, but those from TTT are just great because of their format and the guys being awesome.
That said, Adrian getting ork rules wrong and making add decisions has been a constant theme ever since I started watching them, I think the 8th edition codex release was the first time. Orks clearly aren't his first army, so while I value his insight and opinion, you should always take it with a grain of salt.
And then there is the issue of Brian always managing to roll horrible in important situations, which skews many results against him...
So, if you want to watch two cool guys having fun and see some out-of-the-box thinking in a fairly "normal" game, TTT is great, but they are not cutting edge competitive.
deffrekka wrote: The Bullcharge did pay off 2 times during the batrep due to charging through dense terrain giving the -2 and Bullcharge ignoring modifiers. Odd pick but it worked in this game.
The Meganobs and Nobs all had powerklaws except on the Stormboy Nob. I dont get this choice either, killsaws are the same price as powerklaws as a single and are just flat superior. My guess is that his models are modelled with Killsaws and Table Top Titans dont proxies. Adrian also didnt know Ghaz actually is affected by his own abilities due to the FAQ and that Warboss are indeed str 6 base and also Boss Nobs dont get an extra attack like normal sarges of other races (something I hope will change In the next codex...).
Overall it was a good game as usual from TTT. My favourite batrep channel out there. Necrons are just a bit too resilient it would seem and with reamination allowing you to congaline to objectives, it's hard to tackle a big blob of warriors unless you can guarantee killing them with 1 unit.
Agree, I rarely watch any battle reps, but those from TTT are just great because of their format and the guys being awesome.
That said, Adrian getting ork rules wrong and making add decisions has been a constant theme ever since I started watching them, I think the 8th edition codex release was the first time. Orks clearly aren't his first army, so while I value his insight and opinion, you should always take it with a grain of salt.
And then there is the issue of Brian always managing to roll horrible in important situations, which skews many results against him...
So, if you want to watch two cool guys having fun and see some out-of-the-box thinking in a fairly "normal" game, TTT is great, but they are not cutting edge competitive.
I might be wrong but I believe Orks are his first army and his favourite love, he started them with playing the original DoW (I did the same haha!) I think its more that he just doesnt play them enough in 9th, and previously 8th, to keep a memory of what Orks can do. Where as if you soley play Orks or couple other armies youll retain more info on them when playing.
Adrian is my favourite due to his energy but Brian is probably the better player when he plays more competitively (he has also done some devil pacts with his dice rolls). On the opposite end you have Art of War. I watch these guys but I cant stand them that much! Nick Nanavati and John Lennon I find to be quite toxic, Mark Perry is too over the top (the last batrep with him playing Orks was awful, he got so many rules wrong), its only Richard Sieglar I like on their channel. But if I had to pick between the two channels, Titans all the way.
Jidmah wrote: With "first" I was referring to priority, not when he started them
Yeah I agree with that. Overall I enjoyed the Ork vs Necrons batrep, i just wanna see Orks winning for once and played well.
The first bat rep of there's I watched has a very close game of Orks vs Death Guard I would recommend a viewing.
Overall I wanted to post this bat rep to spurn the discussion on whether or not Green Tide is actually a good list.
Caveats being this is one game, and there were a couple rules mistakes / odd list choices (The Saws vs Klaws DIDN'T matter though.. see the bat rep why ).
But if you watch it, I don't think Adrian made any major mistakes, nor do I think dice swung the game.
I just see the opinion floating around that Goff Tide is at its core a very strong list. I would love to see Shane Watts or something pilot it, because this just seemed like a perfect example of how it completely fell apart if your opponent was remotely ready for it.
So I guess my question is: Is Goff / green tide actually strong, or does it solely rely on this meta which is completely geared for killing elite / vehicles?
Yeah, nothing bothers me more than watching an ork player in a batrep getting their rules consistently wrong, it ruins the video for me. I find too many of the more general batrep people only ever have Orks as a side army than a main one, so they have the classical mistake of going combined arms for their army build or play them like they would marines. I've noted that a lot of good batreps with Orks are usually written rather than in a video format.
Grimskul wrote: Yeah, nothing bothers me more than watching an ork player in a batrep getting their rules consistently wrong, it ruins the video for me. I find too many of the more general batrep people only ever have Orks as a side army than a main one, so they have the classical mistake of going combined arms for their army build or play them like they would marines. I've noted that a lot of good batreps with Orks are usually written rather than in a video format.
Ive been watching MWG's new campaign between Aeldari and Orkz with Dave playing orkz. Its made me want to reach through the screen and slap him with the codex For some reason he keeps forgetting Deathskullz re-rolls, invulns and the basic weapons load out of the Scrapjet.
On the scrapjet he routinely fires only 6 shots from the big shootas, all at BS5 he also rolls 1D3 for shots from the Rokkit Kannon instead of 2D3 and too my knowledge he hasn't used it in CC yet...which with the new rules for vehicles in 9th, is exactly where it wants to be all game long.
tulun wrote: The first bat rep of there's I watched has a very close game of Orks vs Death Guard I would recommend a viewing.
I think this was the game where Brian rolled like zero successful DR rolls against the burna bommer and lost roughly 500 points of death guard to it because he had his stuff clumped up for no reason. The DG should have trashed the orks if not for playing errors and bad luck.
I will have a game against a good harlequins player soon, I think I might challenge him with a goff tide to make myself a picture of how they perform against a powerful army.
tulun wrote: The first bat rep of there's I watched has a very close game of Orks vs Death Guard I would recommend a viewing.
I think this was the game where Brian rolled like zero successful DR rolls against the burna bommer and lost roughly 500 points of death guard to it because he had his stuff clumped up for no reason. The DG should have trashed the orks if not for playing errors and bad luck.
I will have a game against a good harlequins player soon, I think I might challenge him with a goff tide to make myself a picture of how they perform against a powerful army.
Let us know how it goes.
I honestly think mechanized Orks might fair better in that matchup -- Haywire cannons are awesome, but they actually don't scale much vs vehicle quality.
Like, they do ~10 wounds to a trukk (if they hit on 3s) and the same to a rhino or a Leviathan...
I think green tide would get shredded though if they take 15 Skyweavers, as they would get 90! shots with haywire cannons being blast. And you'd also be hard pressed to force them into any engagement given how slow you are.
tulun wrote: The first bat rep of there's I watched has a very close game of Orks vs Death Guard I would recommend a viewing.
I think this was the game where Brian rolled like zero successful DR rolls against the burna bommer and lost roughly 500 points of death guard to it because he had his stuff clumped up for no reason. The DG should have trashed the orks if not for playing errors and bad luck.
I will have a game against a good harlequins player soon, I think I might challenge him with a goff tide to make myself a picture of how they perform against a powerful army.
Which Goff horde are you going to run? 90 and meganobz or 120 with Painboy/KFF and Ghaz?
next time I get a competitive game I really want to break out the old Ghaz model and run 120 boyz, ghaz, warboss, KFF, Painboy and see what happens.
Jidmah wrote: With "first" I was referring to priority, not when he started them
Yeah I agree with that. Overall I enjoyed the Ork vs Necrons batrep, i just wanna see Orks winning for once and played well.
The first bat rep of there's I watched has a very close game of Orks vs Death Guard I would recommend a viewing.
Overall I wanted to post this bat rep to spurn the discussion on whether or not Green Tide is actually a good list.
Caveats being this is one game, and there were a couple rules mistakes / odd list choices (The Saws vs Klaws DIDN'T matter though.. see the bat rep why ).
But if you watch it, I don't think Adrian made any major mistakes, nor do I think dice swung the game.
I just see the opinion floating around that Goff Tide is at its core a very strong list. I would love to see Shane Watts or something pilot it, because this just seemed like a perfect example of how it completely fell apart if your opponent was remotely ready for it.
So I guess my question is: Is Goff / green tide actually strong, or does it solely rely on this meta which is completely geared for killing elite / vehicles?
Saws definitely do matter, making sure none of the Necrons actually get an armour save is even more crucial if you want to stop them reanimating. So yeah whilst in batrep it would only amount to a couple more dead Immortals due to the crazy rolls vs the Triarch Praetorians meaning the extra AP wasnt needed in that instance, there is no reason not to take saws over klaws. He spent pts on kustom shootas and never used them or got value out of them... thats pts that can be used on dual saws meaning more dead Immortals.
I dont think he made huge mistakes, but little ones from list building to poor optimisation can lead up to a overall mistake that costs the game. Ive watched the original 9e batrep vs DG and Brian wasnt rolling well for DR, and being that clumped up is a receipe for disaster when facing a Burna-Bommer.
Grimskul wrote: Yeah, nothing bothers me more than watching an ork player in a batrep getting their rules consistently wrong, it ruins the video for me. I find too many of the more general batrep people only ever have Orks as a side army than a main one, so they have the classical mistake of going combined arms for their army build or play them like they would marines. I've noted that a lot of good batreps with Orks are usually written rather than in a video format.
Ive been watching MWG's new campaign between Aeldari and Orkz with Dave playing orkz. Its made me want to reach through the screen and slap him with the codex For some reason he keeps forgetting Deathskullz re-rolls, invulns and the basic weapons load out of the Scrapjet.
On the scrapjet he routinely fires only 6 shots from the big shootas, all at BS5 he also rolls 1D3 for shots from the Rokkit Kannon instead of 2D3 and too my knowledge he hasn't used it in CC yet...which with the new rules for vehicles in 9th, is exactly where it wants to be all game long.
MWG are notoriously bad for not reading rules or FAQs, or they prerecord videos and release them well after a FAQ has been dropped. ive stopped watching MWG years ago, I just dont value them. I watched the first Crusade match vs Skari and the mismatch was horrid. If your playing a PL game and dont take wargear then thats the players fault. 5 Nobz, why werent they equipped with Dual Killsaws? Cyborg Bodies on 1? Stuff like this. His force was all over the place where Skari's had some form of direction and tactics. He probs never even saw the Ork Faq to even see that the MTSJ has a grot gunner for its other twin Big Shoota.
MWG, Dark Artisan and Winters SEO are all channels I cant stand due to just not knowing the rules.A little bit more time dedicated to reading the rules/having a cheat sheet nearby, would increase the watchability ten fold. No one wants to watch someone play an army incorrectly. I dont mind watching someone loose, but if they loose because they didnt know half their army abilities or wargear, thats on them not the opponent.
SemperMortis wrote: Which Goff horde are you going to run? 90 and meganobz or 120 with Painboy/KFF and Ghaz?
That's... not how the goff horde works?
We have literally seen a dozen or permutations of it doing well so far, I'll have to see what I can fit in the list. My main issue right now is not owning any kommadoz, and due to my job and the pandemic's impact on childcare, I won't be able to convert any until then. I might have to use storm boyz instead.
It shouldn't matter too much though, if the archetype is actually powerful enough the few points lost there shouldn't have a huge impact.
He took meganobz with shootas instead of double saw, and the bull charge psy power for his weird boy... Why ??
The Bullcharge did pay off 2 times during the batrep due to charging through dense terrain giving the -2 and Bullcharge ignoring modifiers. Odd pick but it worked in this game.
The Meganobs and Nobs all had powerklaws except on the Stormboy Nob. I dont get this choice either, killsaws are the same price as powerklaws as a single and are just flat superior. My guess is that his models are modelled with Killsaws and Table Top Titans dont proxies. Adrian also didnt know Ghaz actually is affected by his own abilities due to the FAQ and that Warboss are indeed str 6 base and also Boss Nobs dont get an extra attack like normal sarges of other races (something I hope will change In the next codex...).
Overall it was a good game as usual from TTT. My favourite batrep channel out there. Necrons are just a bit too resilient it would seem and with reamination allowing you to congaline to objectives, it's hard to tackle a big blob of warriors unless you can guarantee killing them with 1 unit.
Ah ok so indeed Bullcharge can be game changing on some terrain heavy tables. And when you think of the huge footprint of a 30 boy mob, going through -2 to charge terrain is pretty common.
30 Skar boyz making or failing a charge can tip the tides of a battle, so perhaps I’ll try it out then, thanks deffreka !
So I guess my question is: Is Goff / green tide actually strong, or does it solely rely on this meta which is completely geared for killing elite / vehicles?
The latter.
Overall a full optimized green tide has potential but it becomes very powerful if it is perceived as a "rock" against a "scissor". Tournaments lists aren't really TAC, they're tailored against the most common powerful lists around, which aren't green tides.
It's the reason why such green tides could perform better against tournament lists than casual (but still optimized) TAC ones.
In my meta for example deleting 30man blobs off objectives seems to be number one priority, more than killing a knight. When I play TAC games basically everyone can kill tons of boyz but not many vehicles (a forktress has been unlikely to die in turn 1 so far), and an ork army that spams T6-8 models for me is more performing than a green tide by a significant margin.
I have a noob question about visions in smoke power.
It allows me to re-roll hit roll in general? Example. I missed 2 out of 3shots. I can re-roll failed ones, or whole roll for all 3?
So I guess my question is: Is Goff / green tide actually strong, or does it solely rely on this meta which is completely geared for killing elite / vehicles?
The latter.
Overall a full optimized green tide has potential but it becomes very powerful if it is perceived as a "rock" against a "scissor". Tournaments lists aren't really TAC, they're tailored against the most common powerful lists around, which aren't green tides.
It's the reason why such green tides could perform better against tournament lists than casual (but still optimized) TAC ones.
In my meta for example deleting 30man blobs off objectives seems to be number one priority, more than killing a knight. When I play TAC games basically everyone can kill tons of boyz but not many vehicles (a forktress has been unlikely to die in turn 1 so far), and an ork army that spams T6-8 models for me is more performing than a green tide by a significant margin.
Yeah, I agree with you.
I'm just hearing a lot of opinions like "Green tide is really strong" and they just point to tournament results. I've found every time I field big blobs of boys they really don't do much of anything in my home games.
I think the Goff Tide list is a gatekeeper. If you don't have an answer, you'll probably lose, but it has real bad matchups. At smaller tournaments, I bet you can even steal a win. I would be dubious it has the legs to top 8 LVO or something, though.
Ghaz's aura works on Monsters with the faq, not "and Ghaz" to allow him to benefit.
...squiggoths.... lol
Yeah the Squiggoth is the only thing other than Ghaz that benefits it, but I dont think 1 extra attack will solve the Squiggoths problems, especially not when your already taking Ghaz who is fairly hefty in pts. Squiggoths of both sizes should of had a stomp profile.
Ghaz's aura works on Monsters with the faq, not "and Ghaz" to allow him to benefit.
...squiggoths.... lol
Yeah the Squiggoth is the only thing other than Ghaz that benefits it, but I dont think 1 extra attack will solve the Squiggoths problems, especially not when your already taking Ghaz who is fairly hefty in pts. Squiggoths of both sizes should of had a stomp profile.
I think he's referring to the advance and charge ability, not the +1A which I think only applies to Ork infantry. Because that does make up for the fact that Squiggoths don't have ramming speed to help guarantee their charges.
Ghaz's aura works on Monsters with the faq, not "and Ghaz" to allow him to benefit.
...squiggoths.... lol
Yeah the Squiggoth is the only thing other than Ghaz that benefits it, but I dont think 1 extra attack will solve the Squiggoths problems, especially not when your already taking Ghaz who is fairly hefty in pts. Squiggoths of both sizes should of had a stomp profile.
I think he's referring to the advance and charge ability, not the +1A which I think only applies to Ork infantry. Because that does make up for the fact that Squiggoths don't have ramming speed to help guarantee their charges.
1)
Is the base the warboss on warbike comes with, from where you draw everything or is it the model it self, like if the base werent there at all like trukks and battlewagons? I ask because the base is so unnatural compared to other bases, being very long, and slim. its not like a regular round or even orval shape.
2)
The stratagem, Orks is never beaten. Am i correct in assuming that if I run in, i attack, i get attacked and get killed, that i can use this stratagem to then attack once more, even though i just attacked? Because the stratagem does say "immididiately" in terms of being able to attack. I just want to be sure so i dont do anything wrong.
1)
Is the base the warboss on warbike comes with, from where you draw everything or is it the model it self, like if the base werent there at all like trukks and battlewagons? I ask because the base is so unnatural compared to other bases, being very long, and slim. its not like a regular round or even orval shape.
2)
The stratagem, Orks is never beaten. Am i correct in assuming that if I run in, i attack, i get attacked and get killed, that i can use this stratagem to then attack once more, even though i just attacked? Because the stratagem does say "immididiately" in terms of being able to attack. I just want to be sure so i dont do anything wrong.
You still draw everything from the base, just because it's sculpted unlike the usual flat black ones doesn't mean you get to discount it unless you have a rule specifically allowing you.
For the Orks is Never Beaten, yes, you get to double dip and fight twice effectively if you had already attacked earlier in the phase.
I'm trying to decide what is a better options to take for this Brigade list: Evil Sunz or Goffs?
Spoiler:
HQ:
Biker Boss (Biggest Boss, +1 Toughness Warlord Trait, Killa klaw)
Warboss (Big Choppa, Kustom Shoota)
Warp Head (Da jump and Warpath)
Mek with KFF
Troops:
10x Gretchin
10x Gretchin
10x Gretchin
30 Boyz, Nob with Double Killsaw
30 Boyz, Nob with Double Killsaw
28 Boyz, Nob with Double Killsaw
(Boyz are all upgraded to be Skarboyz IF we go with goffs...)
Fast Attack:
3x Nob Bikers Bossnob with 1 Killsaw
3x Nob Bikers Bossnob with 1 Killsaw
8x Nob Bikers 2x Killsaws
Eiltes:
5x Kommandos
5x Kommandos
1x Painboy
Heavy Support:
Smasha Gun
Smasha Gun
Tractor Kannon
The basic premise of the list is pretty straightforward. Push the bikes up with the bikerboss turn 1 and catch anything near the front in an assault. Min Bikes, Boyz and Gretchin get objectives and push up the board after their key shooters have been tied up.
I'd go over what I think the benefits of both Klans would be for this list but I want to hear what you all have to say first.
Also:
Do you think the painboy is necessary or should he be dropped for another unit of Kommandos? Is the warboss needed (for the potential to advance and charge the boyz) Can the biker nobz take a pair of killsaws? Thanks!
Ghaz's aura works on Monsters with the faq, not "and Ghaz" to allow him to benefit.
...squiggoths.... lol
Yeah the Squiggoth is the only thing other than Ghaz that benefits it, but I dont think 1 extra attack will solve the Squiggoths problems, especially not when your already taking Ghaz who is fairly hefty in pts. Squiggoths of both sizes should of had a stomp profile.
I think he's referring to the advance and charge ability, not the +1A which I think only applies to Ork infantry. Because that does make up for the fact that Squiggoths don't have ramming speed to help guarantee their charges.
Yeah its the adv+charge. Its not likely a Squiggoth will move so fast it completely bypasses Ghaz's Waaagh. Squiggoths are long, easily twice if not more Ghaz's base in length, im not even sure if Ghaz advancing 1" and the Squig advancing 6" would cause them to be too far away assuming they were sitting right up front to begin with.
I'm trying to decide what is a better options to take for this Brigade list: Evil Sunz or Goffs?
Spoiler:
HQ:
Biker Boss (Biggest Boss, +1 Toughness Warlord Trait, Killa klaw)
Warboss (Big Choppa, Kustom Shoota)
Warp Head (Da jump and Warpath)
Mek with KFF
Troops:
10x Gretchin
10x Gretchin
10x Gretchin
30 Boyz, Nob with Double Killsaw
30 Boyz, Nob with Double Killsaw
28 Boyz, Nob with Double Killsaw
(Boyz are all upgraded to be Skarboyz IF we go with goffs...)
Fast Attack:
3x Nob Bikers Bossnob with 1 Killsaw
3x Nob Bikers Bossnob with 1 Killsaw
8x Nob Bikers 2x Killsaws
Eiltes:
5x Kommandos
5x Kommandos
1x Painboy
Heavy Support:
Smasha Gun
Smasha Gun
Tractor Kannon
The basic premise of the list is pretty straightforward. Push the bikes up with the bikerboss turn 1 and catch anything near the front in an assault. Min Bikes, Boyz and Gretchin get objectives and push up the board after their key shooters have been tied up.
I'd go over what I think the benefits of both Klans would be for this list but I want to hear what you all have to say first.
Also:
Do you think the painboy is necessary or should he be dropped for another unit of Kommandos? Is the warboss needed (for the potential to advance and charge the boyz) Can the biker nobz take a pair of killsaws? Thanks!
Goff, hands down. Most of your units have close to nothing to gain from evil suns unless you da jump them, and the difference between S4 boyz and S5 boyz with exploding sixes is huge.
You should also find a way to either include Thrakka in there or drop the painboy.
In general, I don't think bringing that much tax (especially gretchin) is worth for just an additional HQ slot. I'd rather drop the second warboss and fit the whole thing into a battalion.
I've thrown a list together to try and fit as much artillery into an orks list as possible, which can be found here
damage output seems pretty sweet, though I may drop the morkanaught for a pair of gunwagons, which would do a bit more output. Aiming to capitalise on bloodaxe saves and long ranges, making my opponents confused by deploying on the back line instead of the front!
Ghaz's aura works on Monsters with the faq, not "and Ghaz" to allow him to benefit.
...squiggoths.... lol
Yeah the Squiggoth is the only thing other than Ghaz that benefits it, but I dont think 1 extra attack will solve the Squiggoths problems, especially not when your already taking Ghaz who is fairly hefty in pts. Squiggoths of both sizes should of had a stomp profile.
I think he's referring to the advance and charge ability, not the +1A which I think only applies to Ork infantry. Because that does make up for the fact that Squiggoths don't have ramming speed to help guarantee their charges.
I always keep forgetting that they didnt FAQ the second half to effect monsters! Its so dumb, Ghaz should just give it to everyone. Suddenly because your not foot slogging with the rest of the Boyz you dont feel the Waaagh! energy pass through you.
I'm trying to decide what is a better options to take for this Brigade list: Evil Sunz or Goffs?
Spoiler:
HQ:
Biker Boss (Biggest Boss, +1 Toughness Warlord Trait, Killa klaw)
Warboss (Big Choppa, Kustom Shoota)
Warp Head (Da jump and Warpath)
Mek with KFF
Troops:
10x Gretchin
10x Gretchin
10x Gretchin
30 Boyz, Nob with Double Killsaw
30 Boyz, Nob with Double Killsaw
28 Boyz, Nob with Double Killsaw
(Boyz are all upgraded to be Skarboyz IF we go with goffs...)
Fast Attack:
3x Nob Bikers Bossnob with 1 Killsaw
3x Nob Bikers Bossnob with 1 Killsaw
8x Nob Bikers 2x Killsaws
Eiltes:
5x Kommandos
5x Kommandos
1x Painboy
Heavy Support:
Smasha Gun
Smasha Gun
Tractor Kannon
The basic premise of the list is pretty straightforward. Push the bikes up with the bikerboss turn 1 and catch anything near the front in an assault. Min Bikes, Boyz and Gretchin get objectives and push up the board after their key shooters have been tied up.
I'd go over what I think the benefits of both Klans would be for this list but I want to hear what you all have to say first.
Also:
Do you think the painboy is necessary or should he be dropped for another unit of Kommandos? Is the warboss needed (for the potential to advance and charge the boyz) Can the biker nobz take a pair of killsaws? Thanks!
Goff, hands down. Most of your units have close to nothing to gain from evil suns unless you da jump them, and the difference between S4 boyz and S5 boyz with exploding sixes is huge.
You should also find a way to either include Thrakka in there or drop the painboy.
In general, I don't think bringing that much tax (especially gretchin) is worth for just an additional HQ slot. I'd rather drop the second warboss and fit the whole thing into a battalion.
Thanks, I think you're right. I've edited the list down again to fit it into a batallion. Here's the new list:
Spoiler:
HQ:
Biker Boss
Weird Boy
Mega Armor Mek w/ KFF(Follow Me Lads & Klevverst Boss)
Fast Attack:
8x Nob Bikes with 3 killsaw
3x Nob Bikes 1 Killsaw
3x Nob Bikes 1 Killsaw
Elites:
5 kommandos
5 Kommandos
1 Pain Boy
Dedicated Transport:
1 Trukk
I like the painboy/kff mek because you are (if you can fit it all in) basically cutting the incoming damage in half T1. ((Although the big mek might have to slap that 3 CP force field projeckta ))
My only debate between goff and eil sunz is the charge range that you get from Evil Sunz.
With the squighide tires on the big biker nobz and evil sunz means their threat range increases by a guaranteed 4 inches on the charge ( from the goff average of 26 to the evil sunz average of 30.) Plus the fact that I do intend on dropping a squad down via da jump for a t1 charge from boyz as well.
Then again, goffs gives such a buff to melee.
Anyways, there's so many factors in this it's kinda hard to math hammer. I think next game I play I'll try it as a goffs and see how that goes.
What are peoples views on the best way to run a Kustom Stompa? At 800pts (or a bit more for extra options) it's still expensive, but it's now feeling a bit like it can pack enough punch to be worth it.
Key points which have changed to make it a lot more viable:
1: Killtanks are cheap, so 2 can be brought with it to get it into a superheavy detachment, so it can benefit from klan kultures.
2: It's got a heckuvalot of dakka, and its shooting doesn't get worse as it degrades. Effectively if you run it as a shooting platform, it doesn't degrade at all.
3: It's a fair amount cheaper than it was before!
My current thoughts for contenders for running a stompa (with 2 killtanks):
1: Bad Moons. Obvious choice, it has dakka, dakka is better with rerolling 1's.
2: Snakebites. 6+++ on 40 wounds? yes, please!
3: Evil Suns. Not for the klan trait, but for the weirdboy power - Visions in da smoke, to reroll everything.
4: Bloodaxes. It can already fallback & charge, so can fallback and do anything with this. Also gets cover over 18" range, on a long-ranged gun platform.
Most of the other traits are not brilliant. Goffs might work for a stompa with a mega-choppa and mega-klaw combo, as that gives it 21 attacks at S10 AP-2, with exploding 6's. However, with this loadout it degrades meaningfully, getting slower and with less attacks all game.
I haven't managed to muddle the mathhammer out on this, as there's a lot of factors. There's no denying that if you get Visions in da Smoke off on turn 1, and pop more dakka, the stompa is going to demolish almost everything it shoots at. But, if the weirdboy dies (or is denied) your stompa has no innate helpfulness (except faster movement, yay?). I think bad moons might be edging it for me, with the sheer volume of shots you'll get more than one 1 to reroll, and that makes it better than deffskulls. Though deffskulls gets you a 6++ and a reroll, it's not simple!
I actually value the Wazbom as a good source of Dakka with it being essentially 3 Mek Gunz (albeit 2 of the guns are BS5) with insane movement that you cant really hide from unless your buried deep with a ruin with 4 walls. It also gives way less bring it down points than 3 Mek Gunz and can reliably help score max Engage on all Fronts. This is paired with a nice bonus of being a 
) and/or getting blown to zoggin' hell.
