IMO the best load-out is the killkannon arm and the lifta-droppa for the other arm. That way it will remain at full power until its last wound, as melee, movement speed and attacks degrade too fast. The belly gun just isn't worth 50 points in my oppinion.
As for traits? Deffskulls for re-rolls and the wreckers stratagem or evil suns with visions. It can fallback and shoot anyways because of the TITANIC keyword and snakebites fall victim to variance too often.
I've ran the gun platform stompa in an evil sunz auxiliary detachment alongside an evil sunz battalion exclusively for visions in the smoke Pain Boyz keeps the weird boy alive. If you get visions off with dakka dakka once you're in a good spot. Twice and the games over.
The belly gun isn't terrible for the points. Especially in a marine meta. Considering it averages the same number of shots as a 10 man squad of tankbustas. Which would put you back 170 points (granted they would be d3)
In one game I put the stompa into reserve which really threw my opponent. It meant I could line up good shots when he came in (and I took while we stand we fight).
Overall I think kustom stompa are quality and at a minimum could act as a spoiler list in a tournament. Dunno about taking them in a super heavy detachment. I was able to take 3x10 trukk boyz 3 X5 kommandos 2x deffkoptas and 4 characters in the battalion so even if the stompa starts off the board I have enough bods (54) to hold primaries.
It's definitely evil suns + visions. If you actually get visions off, pop more dakka, the Kustom Stompa will absolutely wreck your opponent.
Arguably it can take the Supa Gatler kustom job too, so get that so it gets flat 2 on that gun *and* can easily shoot it twice.
Edit: As a random thought, this could be a fun army to build too.
Triple Kill Tank w/ Ghaz, built around while we stand we fight. If you wanna be cheeky, make them Goffs w/ Makari so they also get a feel no pain.
I think you'd need just enough to remove their anti tank and to keep them healthy, but that army might actually have a shot of scoring at least 10 WWSWF by end of game.
I tried running ghaz with the stompa (only thing better than one centre piece model is two centre piece models) but his cost cuts into the number of bods I can field.
The return and improvement of the bikerboss (combo'd with the biggest boss and the killa klaw) means I'm struggling to justify ghaz. Especially if I take WWSWF which puts an even bigger target on ghaz. The fact the bikerboss is less than 10 wounds is huge.
I'm hoping they faq the supa gatler kustom job soon. Seems obvious. One question regarding the supa gatler, if I successfully roll to shoot it a second (or third time) can I choose a new target? Leman Russ grinding advance specifies that you can't but no such clarity for the SG
Thinking of fielding this on Saturday (buddy is being nice and letting me use two deff rolla wagons as proxies for 2 Kill Tanks).
I am undecided on the <CLAN> of the Super Heavy. Bad Moons (tons of shots for re-rolls), Deathskulls (Invul + Wreckers), and Snakebites (Feel no pain) all seems interesting here for different reasons.
What do y'all think? And should I swap my koptas for 10 more boys? I almost hate leaving home without them
1997 points
Goff Batallion
Ghaz
KFF Mek
27 boys, Kill saw, choppa
26 boys kill saw choppa
26 boys kill saw choppa
Not a bad list honestly. I personally hate mixing and matching, and this gives your opponent's heavy weapons something to shoot at and his anti-infantry weapons something to shoot at.
If you are going to run Kill tanks Id probably run BW rush with it as well. Maybe get like 3 Bone Breakers.
SemperMortis wrote: Not a bad list honestly. I personally hate mixing and matching, and this gives your opponent's heavy weapons something to shoot at and his anti-infantry weapons something to shoot at.
If you are going to run Kill tanks Id probably run BW rush with it as well. Maybe get like 3 Bone Breakers.
Totally agree with you, but I'm actually trying to field a mixed list.
What seems cool about it is it actually doesn't seem like total trash. I have enough boys for a tide (if I drop the koptas, I'm at 85), and these vehicles are tough enough even without spamming a billion buggies, trukks, mek guns to unironically be taken.
Even kill secondaries are tough unless you have very good answers to these suckers.
I'm tempted to even try WWSWF for the fight time ever.
3x Gigashoota Killtanks feels dirty. Been theorycrafting what to go with it and...man theres so much...
Theyre as hard to kill as knights and cost less, even factoring the KFF babysitting them, and dont even eat half the list so still got plenty of objective-grabber potential left over.
3x Gigashoota Killtanks feels dirty. Been theorycrafting what to go with it and...man theres so much...
Theyre as hard to kill as knights and cost less, even factoring the KFF babysitting them, and dont even eat half the list so still got plenty of objective-grabber potential left over.
I'm with you.
I think there might be a 1 or 3 Kill Tank list that could place at a tournament.
You can basically take a 90 boy tide w/ Ghaz and his support characters (which has placed at tournaments) AND 3 Lords of War. that's bonkers.
I really hope some insane person whose doing the tournament circuit right now tries this out. Because it seems really, really strong on paper, and it can be slotted into Green Tide *or* buggy spam without breaking a sweat. The main cost is CP, which buggy spam isn't in dire need of.
3x Gigashoota Killtanks feels dirty. Been theorycrafting what to go with it and...man theres so much...
Theyre as hard to kill as knights and cost less, even factoring the KFF babysitting them, and dont even eat half the list so still got plenty of objective-grabber potential left over.
I'm with you.
I think there might be a 1 or 3 Kill Tank list that could place at a tournament.
You can basically take a 90 boy tide w/ Ghaz and his support characters (which has placed at tournaments) AND 3 Lords of War. that's bonkers.
I really hope some insane person whose doing the tournament circuit right now tries this out. Because it seems really, really strong on paper, and it can be slotted into Green Tide *or* buggy spam without breaking a sweat. The main cost is CP, which buggy spam isn't in dire need of.
I'm not sure honestly. As fun as the Kill tanks are, the mathhammer for the gigashooter isn't as impressive as you think.
W/ DDD you are talking 12 hits, vs T4-5 SM primaris dudes (most likely to face) you get 8 wounds and 5.3 dmg which is 2-3 dead Primaris or 1-2 Gravis. Definitely not bad, but not overly competitive. 275pts kills 40-60 Primaris or 40-80 Gravis. Comparitively, 30 Boyz Goff boyz with the upgrade get something like 22 dmg, i mean, you will never get 30 boyz into combat unscathed and you will likewise never get 30 boyz into 1 combat due to the new rules, but dmg potential wise you would probably be better running another 90 boyz in a tournament setting.
Take them as bad moons and you’re getting like 22 hits a turn.
Very true, but from personal (anecdotal) experience, you don't want to be within 30' of SM players right now. Hell, you don't want to allow them within 30' of your tanks ever. If you are hitting on 4s that means they are within Range with their eradicators or Multi Melta devs and let me tell you....OUCH! I had a BW get hit by a single unit of 3 eradicators with upgraded rifles and a multi-melta.... 8 shots, dude got 6 hits, 5 wounds and immediately torched the vehicle. I can't imagine KillTanks doing very well either
Realistically you wouldn't want them moving forward at all, and would want to protect them from deep strike/out flanking, but only vs lists that have ridiculous things like Eradicators/melta devs etc.
Ramshackle is a thing. You can shoot the eradicators before they have range KFF saves They wound on 4s against killtanks.
You cant live assuming eradicators are going to be spammed and will automatically win against anything that isnt horde. Running a ton of them is a very stupid thing to do and they arent S9 (surprisingly, being primaris meltas) so they are 50-50 wounding odds.
1 killtank is pretty guaranteed dead. If they manage to kill 2 or all 3 before you deleted those eradicators you have issues and the eradicator isnt one of them.
The killtank trio is literally 900pts (factoring the KFF sitting between two of them at the start of the game, jumping inside 1 before it speeds off). If you cant think of a way to deal with eradicators with the remaining 1100pts, you arent even trying.
I think people are sleeping on Kill Tanks -- the main issue is they are 200 dollar models EACH. So no one owns them.
Advantages Kill Tanks have:
1) The Trio is 275 *3. 825 points for 72 T8, 3+, 5++ (KFF) or 6++ (DS), potentialy a 6+++ (Ghaz + makari or snakebites) is bonkers. In addition, they have ramshackle, meaning htat 8 damage melta shot might be 1, and each heals itself for d3 wounds a turn.
2) They outrange the thing that scares them most, eradicators, by a good margin (36" or 48" guns).
3) They can be useful backline objective holders in matches where you think sticking their neck out is bad.
4) They are titantic, so can't even be tagged for shooting. If you go with Blood Axes, they even can fal back, shoot, and charge.
5) They are actually good in CC. Not great, but good.
6) While we stand we fight might actually be a takeable secondary with this army.
Im fairly confident there is some real play with them, but who honestly owns 3 Kill Tanks that goes to tournaments?
Nobody i know owns more than 1, and most dont even own 1.
I was gonna buy them in 8th but then they MEGA hyked their points for no freaking reason, so i opted out of that quick lol.
Then i got a printer. Dont care now since i dont play in tournies, just a pseudo-competitive meta.
Vineheart01 wrote: Nobody i know owns more than 1, and most dont even own 1.
I was gonna buy them in 8th but then they MEGA hyked their points for no freaking reason, so i opted out of that quick lol.
Then i got a printer. Dont care now since i dont play in tournies, just a pseudo-competitive meta.
I'll let you know how it goes. I think I'll do Bad Moons for fun, although Deathskulls for the invul might just be better.
Here's another rather dumb list I threw together:
Outrider (Deathskulls)
Bike Boss, Da Biggest Boss, Follow me Lads!, Da Killa klaw
2x 1 Deff Kopta, big shoota
3x Mega Trakks, Korkscrew
3x Mega Trakks
3x Dragsters, Whirlgig
3x Kill Tanks (Deathskulls for the invul)
If the buggy list can win, I dunno how that wouldn't even be better?
Vineheart01 wrote: Ramshackle is a thing.
You can shoot the eradicators before they have range
KFF saves
They wound on 4s against killtanks.
You cant live assuming eradicators are going to be spammed and will automatically win against anything that isnt horde. Running a ton of them is a very stupid thing to do and they arent S9 (surprisingly, being primaris meltas) so they are 50-50 wounding odds.
1 killtank is pretty guaranteed dead. If they manage to kill 2 or all 3 before you deleted those eradicators you have issues and the eradicator isnt one of them.
The killtank trio is literally 900pts (factoring the KFF sitting between two of them at the start of the game, jumping inside 1 before it speeds off).
If you cant think of a way to deal with eradicators with the remaining 1100pts, you arent even trying.
I think you have to compare them to whats at the top of the meta right now and thats Salamanders. If the board has ample obscuring terrain, you cant rely on getting a bead on the Eradicators first, especially if they come on from strategic reserves. Then as Salamanders, they are gonna have multiple ways of getting that +1 to wound for Meltas and then a single reroll to wound per squad. They will reliably wound Killtanks. And whilst they have Ramshackle, I wouldnt bank on it. A 16% chance to negate a unsaved wounds damage to a 1 just isnt great, your gonna need 6 unsaved wounds on avergage to negate 1 and you dont even get to pick which damage it effects. You could put a 2 down to a 1 whilst the stays as a 6. Ive played long enough with DDD and Ramshackle to know that an ability that triggers on 6s doesnt always pay off. It either defines a game at clutch moments or it costs you the game as it did nothing.
Then there comes the size of it... I own a Killbursta and a Killtank (RIP ol' boi) and they are BIG models. Not Baneblade big but they are mighty girthy. Your gonna have a hard time moving round ruins and enemy units that come to move block it, and speaking of blocking it, what happens when it gets tripointed? Its gonna blast 30 shots at BS6 at some chaff or throwaway unit? Hell a trio is pretty susceptible to any negatives to hit. 1 can bypass it with Moar Dakka, the other cant and the game is swimming in -1s to hit. I wouldnt want to spend 275pts on a block of resin that hits on 6s. Id hate to draw Harlies as an opponent at a GT.
Yeah they are cheap and all at 275pts, and yeah whilst it isnt as expensive as a Knight, it also doesnt come close to its firepower or abilities. Its cool but I dont think itll do great in the current meta.
3x Gigashoota Killtanks feels dirty. Been theorycrafting what to go with it and...man theres so much...
Theyre as hard to kill as knights and cost less, even factoring the KFF babysitting them, and dont even eat half the list so still got plenty of objective-grabber potential left over.
I'm with you.
I think there might be a 1 or 3 Kill Tank list that could place at a tournament.
You can basically take a 90 boy tide w/ Ghaz and his support characters (which has placed at tournaments) AND 3 Lords of War. that's bonkers.
I really hope some insane person whose doing the tournament circuit right now tries this out. Because it seems really, really strong on paper, and it can be slotted into Green Tide *or* buggy spam without breaking a sweat. The main cost is CP, which buggy spam isn't in dire need of.
I'm not sure honestly. As fun as the Kill tanks are, the mathhammer for the gigashooter isn't as impressive as you think.
W/ DDD you are talking 12 hits, vs T4-5 SM primaris dudes (most likely to face) you get 8 wounds and 5.3 dmg which is 2-3 dead Primaris or 1-2 Gravis. Definitely not bad, but not overly competitive. 275pts kills 40-60 Primaris or 40-80 Gravis. Comparitively, 30 Boyz Goff boyz with the upgrade get something like 22 dmg, i mean, you will never get 30 boyz into combat unscathed and you will likewise never get 30 boyz into 1 combat due to the new rules, but dmg potential wise you would probably be better running another 90 boyz in a tournament setting.
I think you have to compare them to whats at the top of the meta right now and thats Salamanders. If the board has ample obscuring terrain, you cant rely on getting a bead on the Eradicators first, especially if they come on from strategic reserves. Then as Salamanders, they are gonna have multiple ways of getting that +1 to wound for Meltas and then a single reroll to wound per squad. They will reliably wound Killtanks. And whilst they have Ramshackle, I wouldnt bank on it. A 16% chance to negate a unsaved wounds damage to a 1 just isnt great, your gonna need 6 unsaved wounds on avergage to negate 1 and you dont even get to pick which damage it effects. You could put a 2 down to a 1 whilst the stays as a 6. Ive played long enough with DDD and Ramshackle to know that an ability that triggers on 6s doesnt always pay off. It either defines a game at clutch moments or it costs you the game as it did nothing.
Then there comes the size of it... I own a Killbursta and a Killtank (RIP ol' boi) and they are BIG models. Not Baneblade big but they are mighty girthy. Your gonna have a hard time moving round ruins and enemy units that come to move block it, and speaking of blocking it, what happens when it gets tripointed? Its gonna blast 30 shots at BS6 at some chaff or throwaway unit? Hell a trio is pretty susceptible to any negatives to hit. 1 can bypass it with Moar Dakka, the other cant and the game is swimming in -1s to hit. I wouldnt want to spend 275pts on a block of resin that hits on 6s. Id hate to draw Harlies as an opponent at a GT.
Yeah they are cheap and all at 275pts, and yeah whilst it isnt as expensive as a Knight, it also doesnt come close to its firepower or abilities. Its cool but I dont think itll do great in the current meta.
I guess a couple of things:
1) Harlequins is probably just a straight up loser for Orks. Green tide is horrifically slow, and haywire cannons are blast... so enjoy eating 90 shots a round from those 15 skyweavers per turn. Oh, and you can't catch them in CC, because they move faster and have several move shoot move strats. Buggy spam might do okay given their anti tank actually prefers stronger vehicles, not weaker ones, but I don't know. I've never done the matchup personally but it seems a really tough slog for the two main types of Ork lists.
2) Needing CP for more Dakka is fine. Not like this list cares about CP really. And again, Kill Tanks hit on 4s within 24", so you'd need two -1's to go to 6s. Not impossible, but pretty rare nowadays.
3) Unless you're seeing 12 eradicators, they are probably killing 1 kill tank at most a turn, and that's even assuming you make it easy for them to shoot them. Remember, you out range them, and outflank is so easy to counter. And if you happen to get a few lucky 5++ or ramshackles off, you might be shocked that the eradicators bounced off. If those 12 eradicators aren't tied up or crippled, or dead from the return fire, you ain't trying hard enough. Eradicators are scary, hyper efficient units just waiting for a nerf, but Orks can build to eat Gravis if that's your main concern.
Every time I face SM's i run into either 1 or 2 min squads of Eradicators with upgraded weapons and a mutli melta. Since they can outflank you will not be able to out range them, and since our army relies on holding objectives we really don't have the points to spare a squad or two guarding each flank to keep deep strikers away from our backlines or in this case our killtanks.
So with that in mind, 3 eradicators get 8 shots, average 5.3 hits and 2.65 wounds. Each one basically automatically does D2+D6 so you are talking about on average 10+dmg from a single squad and that is without buffs of any kind, and god knows SMs have a plethora of buffs they can put on their units.
Like I said, they are good, but in a tournament scene they will die ridiculously quickly.
I think you have to compare them to whats at the top of the meta right now and thats Salamanders. If the board has ample obscuring terrain, you cant rely on getting a bead on the Eradicators first, especially if they come on from strategic reserves. Then as Salamanders, they are gonna have multiple ways of getting that +1 to wound for Meltas and then a single reroll to wound per squad. They will reliably wound Killtanks. And whilst they have Ramshackle, I wouldnt bank on it. A 16% chance to negate a unsaved wounds damage to a 1 just isnt great, your gonna need 6 unsaved wounds on avergage to negate 1 and you dont even get to pick which damage it effects. You could put a 2 down to a 1 whilst the stays as a 6. Ive played long enough with DDD and Ramshackle to know that an ability that triggers on 6s doesnt always pay off. It either defines a game at clutch moments or it costs you the game as it did nothing.
Then there comes the size of it... I own a Killbursta and a Killtank (RIP ol' boi) and they are BIG models. Not Baneblade big but they are mighty girthy. Your gonna have a hard time moving round ruins and enemy units that come to move block it, and speaking of blocking it, what happens when it gets tripointed? Its gonna blast 30 shots at BS6 at some chaff or throwaway unit? Hell a trio is pretty susceptible to any negatives to hit. 1 can bypass it with Moar Dakka, the other cant and the game is swimming in -1s to hit. I wouldnt want to spend 275pts on a block of resin that hits on 6s. Id hate to draw Harlies as an opponent at a GT.
Yeah they are cheap and all at 275pts, and yeah whilst it isnt as expensive as a Knight, it also doesnt come close to its firepower or abilities. Its cool but I dont think itll do great in the current meta.
I guess a couple of things:
1) Harlequins is probably just a straight up loser for Orks. Green tide is horrifically slow, and haywire cannons are blast... so enjoy eating 90 shots a round from those 15 skyweavers per turn. Oh, and you can't catch them in CC, because they move faster and have several move shoot move strats. Buggy spam might do okay given their anti tank actually prefers stronger vehicles, not weaker ones, but I don't know. I've never done the matchup personally but it seems a really tough slog for the two main types of Ork lists.
2) Needing CP for more Dakka is fine. Not like this list cares about CP really. And again, Kill Tanks hit on 4s within 24", so you'd need two -1's to go to 6s. Not impossible, but pretty rare nowadays.
3) Unless you're seeing 12 eradicators, they are probably killing 1 kill tank at most a turn, and that's even assuming you make it easy for them to shoot them. Remember, you out range them, and outflank is so easy to counter. And if you happen to get a few lucky 5++ or ramshackles off, you might be shocked that the eradicators bounced off. If those 12 eradicators aren't tied up or crippled, or dead from the return fire, you ain't trying hard enough. Eradicators are scary, hyper efficient units just waiting for a nerf, but Orks can build to eat Gravis if that's your main concern.
1.) The point still stands. If your going a GT your gonna have to plan to face the big bois of the Meta. Salamanders, Harlies, DG, Custodes. Buggies do not fair well vs Harlies. 4++ Invun across the board, faster, -1 to hits on Transports and the Bikes, easily get it to -2 with Dense terrain and Strats (to negate a +1 to hit), good melee output with great synergies.
2.) Multiple ways of -1 isnt rare. If your facing any kind of Eldar your swimming in it. Space Wolves have a Pyschic power, White Scars have a Psychic power and Strat, Dark Angels have the Dark Shroud even if its crazy expensive, the list goes on. All it takes is to combine that with Dense terrain, which any board worth its salt should have on the field. That 4+ will often be a 5/6+. It was never about CP, but more the enemies and how they have better defensive strats.
3.) Eradicators are still common and will remain so aslong as Salamanders are kings of the meta. You dont really outrange Eradicators when your sweet spot for hitting is 24" (if we are talking about the Killblasta with the giga). Eradicators have a 29" threat range, can be easily hidden and can be buffed to the teeth with Chaplains and other nonsense Marines can conjure up. In no way shape or form do you base a game plan on "luck". In my group im known for BS luck moments, giving me the moniker of 'Mork's it', but i dont rely on it. I dont trust any ability that triggers on 6s. They can roll hot like you said but the opposite is also true that they never crop up in a game. Ive had matches where my DDD have obliterated things but not when I wanted it and other games where it doesnt gen me anything.
If I wanted to tackle Gravis units, I wouldnt go to the Killblasta. We have Rokkit Kannons/Launchas, Meganobz with Hit em Harder, Deffdreads with Klaws, Kannonwagons (who dont need to be at mid range to hit on 4s), Warboss with Da Killaklaw or Killsaw with Kunnin but Brutal, Ghaz, ever reliable Burna-bommers with Flying 'eadbutt.
As SemperMortis said, they are good. But they aint great for the meta.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote: Every time I face SM's i run into either 1 or 2 min squads of Eradicators with upgraded weapons and a mutli melta. Since they can outflank you will not be able to out range them, and since our army relies on holding objectives we really don't have the points to spare a squad or two guarding each flank to keep deep strikers away from our backlines or in this case our killtanks.
So with that in mind, 3 eradicators get 8 shots, average 5.3 hits and 2.65 wounds. Each one basically automatically does D2+D6 so you are talking about on average 10+dmg from a single squad and that is without buffs of any kind, and god knows SMs have a plethora of buffs they can put on their units.
Like I said, they are good, but in a tournament scene they will die ridiculously quickly.
2000% agree Semper! Eradictors arent even the only thing they have to worry about, there are also the Silent King and the Void Dragon that is kicking round the block that will easily handle a Killtank or two.
Hey I'm fething dumb as gak, and full of wine, but my mum just gave me two boxes of Gretchin for my Birthday. What do we think of runtherds? I feel like I might need one, but I'm tempted to cannibalize the other for a pot-bellied nob of some kind, and scratch build some weapons for him?
posermcbogus wrote: Hey I'm fething dumb as gak, and full of wine, but my mum just gave me two boxes of Gretchin for my Birthday. What do we think of runtherds? I feel like I might need one, but I'm tempted to cannibalize the other for a pot-bellied nob of some kind, and scratch build some weapons for him?
I keep meaning to try out runtherds. My logic is that they are 40pts for 4 wounds, character protection, and susprisingly good weapons.
I am wondering if having 1 or 2 in a trukk with a unit of ork boys would make the trukkload have a bit more punch. Against single damage weapons they are effectively 4 boys, so in a trukk you could get 3 units, with the equivalent of 18 boys to kill, and 8 S6 AP-1 attacks, 3 killsaw attacks, and the boys attacks to boot. Admittedly, 80pts would get you another unit of boys, so it's not the best option. I am also wonderifn about having one or two to carry relics to battle, like the buzzbomm, or the redder armour. 40pts to make your evil-suns gorkanaught even faster!
Yeah, therein lies the issue. Though perhaps a gaks-n-giggles trukk full of meks and runtherds could be interesting
what else could be thrown in there? banner nobs, though they aren't exactly cheap. Perhaps 3 meganobs, for a ful ltrukk and a bizarre attack in which the opponent can't deal with the characters until they kill a meganob, but they also can't decide if they actually have to deal with this hodgepodge of unusual units
Don't forget the goff lucky stick to make all those characters hit on twos It's free assassination points for your opponent though.
I accidentally overwrote my insane character list when messing around with battlescribe, but essentially you can have an huge pile of character hiding behind Thrakka because he is a MONSTER - including Badrukk, Da Red Gobbo, Makari, painboy, weird boy, banner nob, runterherd and more.
Played it at 1k points, didn't do jack, but I had a hell of a time
I suppose if your measuring stick is solely whether if something can 6-0 a tournament right now... Don't bring Orks period.
Orks do not have a serious competitive build right now. I hope people here are skeptical that Goff Tide is actually good. Like does anyone seriously think Orks could top 4 LVO in this meta?
Might as well field 3 giant tanks with 90 boys and have a raucous good time.
Vineheart01 wrote:Nobody i know owns more than 1, and most dont even own 1.
I was gonna buy them in 8th but then they MEGA hyked their points for no freaking reason, so i opted out of that quick lol.
They had one variant that the turret came out and you got to see the squig inside and all. Not sure it was a Killtank specifically but one of the Lord of War style tanks. I regret not buying one at the time. A fairly nice kit and having just finished my Meka and mega Dreads I feel the Ork kits are nicer than my first reaction of "just plasticard and filing,.."
But folks, we're ork players and lots of kits floating around. Just rip apart a bunch of non-primaris tanks to build something.
I've found that a baneblade body shoehorned on top of landraider tracks makes a decent looking base for a killtank. And you have the tracks from the baneblade which can make the basis of a second, so that's 2.
tulun wrote: I suppose if your measuring stick is solely whether if something can 6-0 a tournament right now... Don't bring Orks period.
Orks do not have a serious competitive build right now. I hope people here are skeptical that Goff Tide is actually good. Like does anyone seriously think Orks could top 4 LVO in this meta?
Might as well field 3 giant tanks with 90 boys and have a raucous good time.
On the contrary, I think orkz have a decent chance to 6-0 and a good chance at LVO if the meta doesn't change much between now and then. The fact remains that while ork boyz aren't that impressive right now, they do pack a decent amount of durability and in CC can at least hold their own when buffed with S5 with ghaz nearby. So long as you can reign in our orky tendencies to want to get "stukk in" and sit your happy green butt on objectives you have a good chance of winning. I always recommend keeping some CP around for Green tide though. I have won so many games because a mob of 3 boyz remaining turned into 30
Goonhammer wrote:Like Daemons, Orks massively outperformed expectations to get up to tier 2 last time, and I did genuinely wonder if I might still be underrating them at that point. As it turns out, tier 2 is the right spot for them. Two main builds continue to be popular, with Goff hordes (as favoured by our own Shane Watts) and Deathskull vehicle/buggy spam both able to take players to the top, and more recently a hybrid build combining elements of both has also seen success. Most builds are making use of the monster that is Ghazghkull, with his ability to take over the flow of melee for a few turns being exceptionally valuable. Orks also have some reasonably interesting looking toys coming out of the Imperial Armour Compendium, including the return of the Warboss on Warbike, so once players manage to get their hands on some of these less common models they might shake things up a bit.
What keeps Orks out of the top tier is that they perpetually run the risk of slamming into the perfect counter. Horde lists can slam face-first into a force wth the shooting to hose them off the table, while the vehicle lists have a tougher time dealing with Rites of War powered Marine builds than those that came before. Orks remain a strong faction, and one that will rack up overwhelming victories at a higher rate than some of those above it, but are just short of the consistency they need to punch above this spot.
Rob: Orks tended to have one of the larger Go First Win Rate differentials of the factions we looked at, winning 17% more of their games going first than second. They appear to have good matchups against Custodes, Space Wolves, and Adeptus Mechanicus armies.
I'd say their assessment is pretty accurate. The big caveat being that simply playing Orks and copying their lists will not give you that tier 2 feeling like playing marines will, because similar to many of the other xenos factions, any mistakes you make will be very punishing unlike SM where you have built-in layers of rules to minimize losses/mistakes. I've said this earlier but you can really tell the difference between a dedicated Ork player and someone that just has an Ork army on the side that they play once in a while. It will significantly harder for FoTM people to take advantage of the current competitive level of Orks than it will be for more cost-efficient and newbie-friendly armies.
ive never faced admech as my orks but i also have admech. I simply compared the two and i shudder at thinking of my orks facing them.
Keep in mind, you facing off against your buddies Admech is not going to be representative of the tournament meta.
Orks win by surprising their opponent. If they come even half assedly prepared, I would wager Admech tables you. Hell, Admech are tabling space marines, they can table Orks no problem.
Would you keep him Goff simply for melee fighting by charging vehicles in to enemies (like if you paired him up with Buzzgob or something for +1 to hit) or would you use him in a deathskulls army?
Warboss on bike kinda works with any of the major 3 factions
Deathskullz: gets a reroll to wound roll and offers a 6++ if you bring multiples, i.e. non-biggest bosses
Evil Sunz: Fasta is alwayz betta
Goffs: Exploding 6s of course.
Problem with Goffs is i dont see why you'd run Goff without Ghaz, and you cant use Biggest Boss with Ghaz around. So he'd hit hard but have no invul at all.
imo none of them are overly powerful compared to the other for him. Extremely minor differences in the end.
Vineheart01 wrote: Warboss on bike kinda works with any of the major 3 factions
Deathskullz: gets a reroll to wound roll and offers a 6++ if you bring multiples, i.e. non-biggest bosses
Evil Sunz: Fasta is alwayz betta
Goffs: Exploding 6s of course.
Problem with Goffs is i dont see why you'd run Goff without Ghaz, and you cant use Biggest Boss with Ghaz around. So he'd hit hard but have no invul at all.
imo none of them are overly powerful compared to the other for him. Extremely minor differences in the end.
The reason i said Goff was mainly for a Buzzgob mech army, where he will be giving them charge as he was changed to allow charges from infantry to vehicles and bikers.
So maybe a Goff mech army with a warboss on warbike for charging those Mega-Dreads or something?.
A side question, is Evil Sunz still competitive? it seems most lists favor either Goff or Deathskulls, and a mech based army would favor Deathskulls i think. Deathskulls give an over all defence but also more damage. The evil sunz only really give.. speed + visions in the smoke, but i feel like many vehicles can reach an enemy in T1 already if you advance and charge (with warboss on warbike). it seems like evil sunz in that case is obsolete.
ive never faced admech as my orks but i also have admech. I simply compared the two and i shudder at thinking of my orks facing them.
Keep in mind, you facing off against your buddies Admech is not going to be representative of the tournament meta.
Orks win by surprising their opponent. If they come even half assedly prepared, I would wager Admech tables you. Hell, Admech are tabling space marines, they can table Orks no problem.
yep, pretty much this. In a tournament setting, Orkz kick the hell out of Admech since the Mech player is bringing a lot of weapons to deal with Space Marines where as the ork is playing to the mission and camping objectives. Its hard to shift 30 boyz off an objective when your best anti-horde weapon is a handful of stubbers.
Orkz are doing great in the tournament scene thanks to this, but if you play against a friend who knows you are bringing orkz....stand the Feth by for a shellacking. With that said, the last time I played against Ad mech was in 8th and I managed to table him Turn 2 because my SSAG wiped out his army almost by itself
I honestly could see you doing something silly even in Goffs.
Ghaz + 2 biker bosses.
Biker bosses both get base 5 attacks (as much as the old DA Biggest Boss), and you can gear them up like this:
1) Warlord, Brutal but Kunnin', Kill Saw, Da Lucky Stick. flat 3, re-roll all hits and wounds, exploding 6s, hit on 2s.
2) Da Killa Klaw. Usual.
So you have 2 incredible fast missiles geared up to smash. The Goff relic is actually incredible, and we now have an Uber good platform to throw it on. If you wanted to scrimp points, you could do it on a walking one too, and you get your 5th attack via Ghaz.
tulun wrote: I honestly could see you doing something silly even in Goffs.
Ghaz + 2 biker bosses.
Biker bosses both get base 5 attacks (as much as the old DA Biggest Boss), and you can gear them up like this:
1) Warlord, Brutal but Kunnin', Kill Saw, Da Lucky Stick. flat 3, re-roll all hits and wounds, exploding 6s, hit on 2s.
2) Da Killa Klaw. Usual.
So you have 2 incredible fast missiles geared up to smash. The Goff relic is actually incredible, and we now have an Uber good platform to throw it on. If you wanted to scrimp points, you could do it on a walking one too, and you get your 5th attack via Ghaz.
I think this is the closest to hero-hammer we'll ever get in our army, and I love it.
I could see a tanky equivalent to this being one where you have 2 WBoB, without Ghaz where you give one Da Biggest Boss for a 4+ invuln while the other takes the Bad Moon Warlord trait to have another 4+ invuln. Probably not worth it since it loses out on a lot of killiness comparatively, but who knows?
One thing I'm looking forward to in our 9th ed book is our equivalent of "chapter command" (Council of WAAAGH!?) that SM have, since I'd love to see Warlord, Mad Dok, Mek Boss and Warphead all as payable upgrades rather than CP based ones.
I just hope when the codex drops, that the Big Trakk somehow gets changed to dedicated transport. It annoys me now that it lost all those options for Supa Scorcha and all that, that its still treated as something more than a transport, which tis clearly not. If it could actually use a ton of different weapons as it used to, then sure i get it, it should be heavy support. But now you might as well go battlewagon if you want something more than a transport.
Its just a good more duable transport that drives faster. If its because it can wield a Supa Kannon, then remove the Supa kannon from its weapons list, because why would you even use that weapon on a Big Trakk anyway.
It should be dedicated transport along side the regular Trukk, so it doesnt take up precious heavy support slots.
Beardedragon wrote: I just hope when the codex drops, that the Big Trakk somehow gets changed to dedicated transport. It annoys me now that it lost all those options for Supa Scorcha and all that, that its still treated as something more than a transport, which tis clearly not. If it could actually use a ton of different weapons as it used to, then sure i get it, it should be heavy support. But now you might as well go battlewagon if you want something more than a transport.
Its just a good more duable transport that drives faster. If its because it can wield a Supa Kannon, then remove the Supa kannon from its weapons list, because why would you even use that weapon on a Big Trakk anyway.
It should be dedicated transport along side the regular Trukk, so it doesnt take up precious heavy support slots.
...
And the Chinork.
Well, unfortunately, if 8th ed has taught us anything, they're unlikely to change anything substantial in the FW index for basically the entire edition outside of a few rules erratas/FAQ's for some of the more obvious rules errors. The Chinork especially since Legends are basically never touched again after their initial release. I agree that the Big Trakk should have been dedicated transport, and then a variant of the big trakk being heavy support with options for a heavy weapon like the supakannon.
For not having our codex yet we are in a decent spot..
We have a viable horde list and viable buggy spam list..
We have decent HQs and some key units that will improve other list builds if the codex improves thier point efficiencies.
Buzzgrob wants to make dread lists viable, mega dread wants to be viable... Basic dreads and nauts just need to be a bit better point efficiency and I’m disappointed the Meka dread lost the Kff.
Burnerbomber and wazbom, wagons, and mega armor boyz all want to be strong..
Biker lists got a small boost from the biker boss and really want to be better too..
I’m not so sure bikers are going to be great this edition but I’m liking how we look so far. I only hope we aren’t to far off on a new codex.
Vineheart01 wrote: Warboss on bike kinda works with any of the major 3 factions
Deathskullz: gets a reroll to wound roll and offers a 6++ if you bring multiples, i.e. non-biggest bosses
Evil Sunz: Fasta is alwayz betta
Goffs: Exploding 6s of course.
Problem with Goffs is i dont see why you'd run Goff without Ghaz, and you cant use Biggest Boss with Ghaz around. So he'd hit hard but have no invul at all.
imo none of them are overly powerful compared to the other for him. Extremely minor differences in the end.
The reason i said Goff was mainly for a Buzzgob mech army, where he will be giving them charge as he was changed to allow charges from infantry to vehicles and bikers.
So maybe a Goff mech army with a warboss on warbike for charging those Mega-Dreads or something?.
A side question, is Evil Sunz still competitive? it seems most lists favor either Goff or Deathskulls, and a mech based army would favor Deathskulls i think. Deathskulls give an over all defence but also more damage. The evil sunz only really give.. speed + visions in the smoke, but i feel like many vehicles can reach an enemy in T1 already if you advance and charge (with warboss on warbike). it seems like evil sunz in that case is obsolete.
I still think Evil Sunz are competitive. The movement phase is one of the most important phases of the game and moving those extra 2-3" with advancing could mean you hold that objective or not. You also pen the opponent further into their deployment. An Evil Sunz boy is just as durable as a Goff boy and just as killy as a Deathskulls. They make charges more reliably from deepstrike and from footsloggin, have an extremely useful strat, put more accurate shots out on the advance and have a great psychic power with Visions in the Smoke.
What makes Deathskulls stronger is the Obsec on all Infantry and the 6++. I dont value the reroll 1 hit 1 wound 1 damage as much. Your doing it on a single shot here and there with most of our damage being flat 2-3.
But Evil Sunz are still a contender. I've seen people lost games because they needed 1 more on a advance roll to claim a point or make a crucial charge that would of allowed for the unit to sweep an objective or two. You cant just shove aside the movement Evil Sunz provide.
We were playing Sweep and Clear, my secondaries were linebreaker, assassinate and the mission secondary (3VP for holding mid or enemy deployment zone objective at the end of your turn, 5VP for both) My opponent had grind hem down, assassinate and linebreaker.
It was completely brutal. He went first and his bikes alone killed more than 40 boyz in the first turn, luckily spread across mobs. Thrakka rolled a six for advance, followed by a 9" charge and managed to catch a unit of bikes in turn one that were trying to hold an objective and wiped them out, a unit of boyz connected with a transport, another just barely got hold of another unit of bikes and killed only two due to not getting enough boyz into engagement range. In turn two one mob had to take a moral test at 3 models left (who had managed to kill the entire troupe that charged their mob) and luckily Thrakka only did one mortal wound to them, allowing me to tide them next turn, essentially winning me the game.
I jumped the MANz turn 1 because there was no one going for the center objective they were supposed to protect and had them attack the deployment zone objective instead. In turn 3 they were wiped out by a troupe with fusion guns, but not after killing a voidreaver. The probably just aren't the best unit to have against harlequins. I wish I had shootas or rokkits on them though, they spent too much time doing nothing.
The weird boy was fine for jumping and warpath, sadly he got killed by a death jester that sniped him in turn 2.
The painboy did next to nothing for the boyz, but his medi-squig healed Thrakka for 3 wounds twice. Unsure whether that alone is worth it.
The MA mek was a star on his own - he held the center objective for four turns before dying, gaining me 9 secondary and 5 primary VP. He also crushed two star weavers in combat, trying to contest the objective.
Tank bustas were great despite all the -1 to hit flying around and the bomb squigs blew up a troupe master. For assassinate.
The storm boyz didn't do too much because we were playing on TTS and the terrain was weird - a beautiful ork landscape, but there was almost no area terrain and no obscuring. I can see why people use kommandoz instead though, a unit of 5 goff orks definitely has the potential to kill small units, and the extra save and to wound helps with that job, while the extra movement rarely does. It's worth noting that I got 4 linebreaker and 5 primary VP because of the stormboyz though. With better terrain, it might have been more.
The burna bommer was a dud... kind of? Turn one my opponent screened perfectly, with me either having to opt out of a bombing run and hit two bikes or only hit two transports. Instead I opted to just shoot his guns. The harlequins failed to melta it and I then flew it off the board. It returned turn 3 without doing much, and bombed a troup and killed a death jester in T4, sealing the deal. My opponent did comment that its presence forced him into the castle that enabled Thrakka to charge the bikes in T1, so it's hard to assess whether it was worth the points or not. Ironically, it did kill its points worth of models by shooting and bombing.
My opponent was tabled by the end of my fighting phase in T4 with the tided mob re-entering the fray and wiping out the last unit of bikes, a troupe and a transport.
The game ended with 64:15 Primary: 30 Linebreaker: 4 Assassinate: 15 Mission: 15 It is worth noting that until my turn 3 not a single primary VP was scored and he didn't get a single point for grind them down. Due to the small deployment zones and almost no LoS blocking, linebreaker was quite hard to score.
So, to the question whether Thrakka tide is powerful or just counter meta? Definitely powerful. Harlequins had no real answer to the wrekkin' ball that was Thrakka and scarboyz did insane amounts of damage when near him, even if you only had a few left. Even without Thrakka, the extra point of strength and exploding sixes made them really dangerous to everything on the board. The clowns weren't lacking for anti-infantry either, when the haywire cannons with max shots due to blast started shooting, I was having flashbacks to 7th edition scatterbikes. The new moral rules really favor this kind of army a lot, in 8th at least two mobs would have imploded to moral along the way. I would have liked a bit more shooting in my list, I might drop the burna bommer for that. I might also just be spoiled from playing too much buggies and DG
In general, despite the point balance looking so damning, with one or two different decisions and a bit more luck on critical rolls, the game could easily have flipped the other way. The speed of harlequins and their ability to ignore much of what the opponents do to control the enemy is quite dangerous.
Tomsug wrote: What kind of shooting do you have in mind? Like switch the MANz to PK+ shoota or bunch of smashagunz?
MANz with PK and maybe even rokkits, though that might need some testing. I really need to run the list against marines before deciding on that. For shooting, smasha guns would probably a good choice as they clould remain on the home objective. I might also try something insane like SJD, because I feel this list could need some highly mobile thing jumping to wherever. A wazbomm might also be a decent idea, since I felt like I really could have used a KFF on the second flank.
How do you screen your deploy with such list? One mob of boyz holds the objective?
I... just didn't? There was a huge wall of orks between it and the harlequins, and I was sure that I could threaten at least 3 objectives and boyz always outnumber clowns. Due to my opponent castling up to deny my burna bommer, I actually got to threaten four objectives during turn 1, forcing him to spread his small army all over the table. I pretty much banked on my tank bustas and green tide to clear out anything that would take the bait. That gamble did pay off though, and ultimately led to the harlequin player getting tabled.
In general the army feels really weird to play when you compare it to previous edition's horde. Instead of running at the enemy at full speed and hoping to connect, you sit mobs of boyz onto objectives and then see what your opponent is going to do about it. If they get too close, you charge them with Thrakka, skarboyz and the goff culture cranking their killing power to eleven, if they don't you just take all the primary points home and watch as they struggle to catch up. It's a good weird though, since the army is no longer as one-dimensional as ork hordes used to be.
I dont know if codexes will release with this, but i hope that when the Ork Codex drops there will be faction specific secondaries to take. I feel like there arent enough fighting secondaries to deal with. It feels weird that an ork player should deploy a scrambler for instance, i mean, im an ork player, i should be attacking and killing. It would also be nice if there was a secondary that required us to kill elite armies rather than grind them down or thin their ranks. Like a, Thin their ranks but for +2 wounds and more that we hordes could benefit from. Or pull off 50 attacks in a round or something.
I miss the old objectives of charging 3 times and such, that made sense for us.
Elite armies are too comfortable in this edition, it shouldnt be like that. Elite armies have it easy going for secondaries against hordes, where as vice versa its hard to pick secondaries i feel like, against elites
Ok, interesting. Your suggestions tend to my ideas about goff tide list.
Six SMG in the back, and 3xkommandos and large blob of tankbustas in second deathskulls detachement to get Wreckers and max shooting from deepstrike and 4 obsec units to beat enemy obsec
Or 3xkommandos and 2x5 MANz with PK in second Evil Sunz detachement to have a chance to charge MANz from DS.
I see screening backfield to block all scramblers, linebreakers etc as pretty important. I see small cheap deepstriking units to do this pretty common.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Beardragon - call it Deploy Fungus and imagine it like seeding ork gems and it makes sence!
Tomsug wrote: Ok, interesting. Your suggestions tend to my ideas about goff tide list.
Six SMG in the back, and 3xkommandos and large blob of tankbustas in second deathskulls detachement to get Wreckers and max shooting from deepstrike and 4 obsec units to beat enemy obsec
Or 3xkommandos and 2x5 MANz with PK in second Evil Sunz detachement to have a chance to charge MANz from DS.
I see screening backfield to block all scramblers, linebreakers etc as pretty important. I see small cheap deepstriking units to do this pretty common.
Or you get a bad moon patrol for the TBs (shoot twice strat), because you will not have many points for it anyway, once you factor in the TBs
Tomsug wrote: I see screening backfield to block all scramblers, linebreakers etc as pretty important. I see small cheap deepstriking units to do this pretty common.
Well, I figured if he tried to get linebreaker, I would have two units waiting to be killed by my reserves. 4VP was a fairly good trade for half a unit of bikers and a transport IMO.
Tomsug wrote: I see screening backfield to block all scramblers, linebreakers etc as pretty important. I see small cheap deepstriking units to do this pretty common.
Well, I figured if he tried to get linebreaker, I would have two units waiting to be killed by my reserves. 4VP was a fairly good trade for half a unit of bikers and a transport IMO.
I don't think he could have afforded parking one of his troupes for scramblers though, but as I said before, this was my first game with that archetype.
I just think that you don't need to protect your deployment zone by default, but instead can use it as bait to draw away enemy units from your boyz. Some times giving up a few VP in order to massively improve your board position is simply worth it.
Jidmah wrote: I don't think he could have afforded parking one of his troupes for scramblers though, but as I said before, this was my first game with that archetype.
I just think that you don't need to protect your deployment zone by default, but instead can use it as bait to draw away enemy units from your boyz. Some times giving up a few VP in order to massively improve your board position is simply worth it.
Definitely an option to think about....
Automatically Appended Next Post: I haven' t playes horde list yet, but think about it a lot, so your report is pretty valuable for me, thanks.
But the part of the question hidden in the previous question remain untouched - what do you use or consider to use for holding your home objective? Or two in some missions?
I mean, planning to hold only the opponents objectives is a decent idea in and of itself. Yeah some matchups may need you to leave grots or Kommandos in the back, but if you cant push into the middle or back things may be going awry anyway.
That aside i'm fond of a trukk with shootaboyz as my backfield holder these days.
It's much better if that backfield is contributing, though. 10 Shoota boys in a trukk isn't horribly expensive, but that can get you nearly 4 mek guns, or put you close to a cannon wagon, both of which contribute and probably hold your backfield better.
Meanwhile, 10 obsec bodies could potentially help contest the midboard.
Yeah, I've found it's kind of tough to see what I should leave behind in my deployment zone in most army lists I use. I usually end up having one of my kommandos in reserve showing up on my home objectives if I'm being stretched thin or using Mek Gunz/Trukk Boyz. I feel like Mek Gunz usually don't have the best LoS opportunities on my tables when they're holding home objectives and thus waste their firepower. Meanwhile Trukk Boyz are pretty solid but at the same time rather expensive when you factor both the transport and them together. I kinda wish grots filled the backfield objective holder role better like they used to, but at their price point you're always better off with something else.
How exposed are your backfield objectives? Like, the TT Titans finally released their terrain video, and they basically almost always have a pretty defensible home objective (at least for 1) -- IE, it's hiding behind obscuring terrain.
If so, the answer to that is probably 10 grots, assuming your opponent has no indirect.
If it's exposed to shooting lanes? The answer is something that wants to sit there and shoot, or a unit that can hold and possibly counter charge the midboard as a threat.
I don't think trukk boys appeals to either of those things. You could limp wounded buggies back to your backfield, but you also risk them dying.
I mean, don't get me wrong there are cheaper options. But they are an "okay" unit that's fairly versatile.
Your opponent doesn't have deep strike? You can move them around to grab things while the rest of your army holds their attention.
Your opponent does? Then you have some alphastrike protection from the trukk. If your opponent wiffs and it lives past that strike then you can use the trukk to bodyblock and annoy them.
And in my experience the trukk with shootaboyz is often one of the last units left. In the games where I used it I found it was one of the last units and frequently were pivotal in those last few turns. Though YMMV of course.
Grimskul wrote: Yeah, I've found it's kind of tough to see what I should leave behind in my deployment zone in most army lists I use. I usually end up having one of my kommandos in reserve showing up on my home objectives if I'm being stretched thin or using Mek Gunz/Trukk Boyz. I feel like Mek Gunz usually don't have the best LoS opportunities on my tables when they're holding home objectives and thus waste their firepower. Meanwhile Trukk Boyz are pretty solid but at the same time rather expensive when you factor both the transport and them together. I kinda wish grots filled the backfield objective holder role better like they used to, but at their price point you're always better off with something else.
Well Smasha Gunz are good obj holders even if they don't have appropriate LoS. They cost 40ppm, cheaper than gretchins and fairly more resilient. A single battery of 4-6 of them has a footprint that is large enough to potentially hold two objectives in the ork deployment zone. A single deffkopta could do the job, but typically is not that easy to have the FA slots available.
Trukk boyz are way worse than mek gunz for that job IMHO. Worse shooting, less resilient and a significant investment in points.
I mostly use Smasha Gunz and Da Boomer for home objectives, eventually Kommandos and Meganobz that typically start from the reserves if they really need to be there but I prefer to deplyoy them in the enemy zone for other uses.
SMG are great home objectives grabers and home deploy screeners, because they cost just 40p peace and shoot a long range. But blocking a LOS deprive them a lot. Deploy them in 3 small units to have bigger distances between them.
I don' t see the point in trukkboyz. 150p wasted to sitting in the backfield.
I don' t see the point in kannonwagen or da boomer. Almost 200p sitting in the backfield and strugling to move for better LOS? But better than truckboyz.
I see some potential in KBB, because 36” Autocannon is almost long range, burnas to burn down the deepstriking cheap stuff and high mobility to change the plans.
Grots can do it and you can use Kommandos for something more creative.
However, the crucial question is, do we really need it? Because you can get 45VP for primaries pretty fast, not all armies have a DS units and something will be stucked in your deploy in T2 anyhow. And if you have a game plan based on attacking opponents objectives, well who cares about one home objective.
You do realize the kannonwagon moves as fast as the KBB, right? At least in its top bracket.
It's just a battlewagon. Move 12". It'll have about as much issue as a KBB in getting line of sight.
Regardless of which, yeah, I think Orks have plenty of great backline objective holders. I'd just prefer mine to actually have a shot at dealing damage, hence why I think I'd be bearish on Trukk Boys in any actually competitive game.
Edit: Also, at 170 w/ Supa Kannon and 3 big shootas, it's only 15 more points than the Trukk Boy squad (10 boys, nob w/ klaw or saw, trukk = 155).
Saying the Kannonwagon is pointless is weird. its 170pts for a T7 16W 3+ save fast tank that doesnt care about being stationary at all with a near-table long range deadly gun (note its bigshootas are free atm)
Sure, it wont have total coverage if you have proper terrain as nothing in the backfield should be able to hit literally anything it wants to. 12" movement is a lot to shift around those blockers though, unless something is hugging a wall you can probably find an angle you can tag it with. It also does 3 damage, not 2 like the gunwagon booma does and hits on 4s with that kannon. Thats a HUGE difference, even if its still AP2
Its going to cause issues for anyone that doesnt try to take it down. And its actually got pretty strong defenses against weapons that CAN reach it, pretty easy for it to sit in trees and fire, and its sitting so far back that if something deepstrikes for it theyre probably not gonna do much the rest of the game afterword.
Kannonwagons are dirty now. Considering i have 2 kromlech Tigerwagons i am now toying around with running 2 kannonwagons on opposite edges of my deployment.
edit: Also it still is opentopped with a small capacity. It can still carry something, like a small squad of lootas for extra 48" dakka or something.
tulun wrote: You do realize the kannonwagon moves as fast as the KBB, right? At least in its top bracket.
It's just a battlewagon. Move 12". It'll have about as much issue as a KBB in getting line of sight.
Regardless of which, yeah, I think Orks have plenty of great backline objective holders. I'd just prefer mine to actually have a shot at dealing damage, hence why I think I'd be bearish on Trukk Boys in any actually competitive game.
Edit: Also, at 170 w/ Supa Kannon and 3 big shootas's only 15 more points than the Trukk Boy squad (10 boys, nob w/ klaw or saw, trukk = 155).
I prefer da boomer wagon VS the FW gunwagon because da boomer wagon explodes on a 4+ , so you can attempt a hail mary when it is on its last wounds, and try to charge an enemy unit (one with good AT close combat potential so its return attacks will finish off the gunwagon), like terminators or thunderwolf cav.
But that is kind of advanced taktiks that most people won't remember when the time comes (not very often admittedly, for sure, as you need many units in explosion range for it to be worth the attempt).
And if you fail that 4+ (you can no longer reroll that for 1 cp unlike in 8TH) well... What an anticlimax !
Beardedragon wrote: it doesnt have objective secure though in case infantry or pesky custodies jump at the point.
Neither do Trukk boys as they are sitting in their trukk?
To be honest, if your back objective is getting flooded as Orks, you've screwed the pooch, or are about to get tabled. And a trukk full of boys isn't going to stop a Custodes squad of anything lol.
It explodes on a 4+ too, so you can attempt a hail mary when it is too damaged, and try to charge an enemy unit (one with good AT close combat potential so its attacks will destroy the gunwagon), like terminators or thunderwolf cav.
objective secured for backfield stuff isnt important for orks.
Ork lists, boy heavy or vehicle heavy, have a giant wall of crap to get past so only a couple of things ever end up in our deployment zone anyway. If the bulk of the enemy army is gonna deepstrike, we dont move so still not an issue.
Besides, kannonwagons are something i'd rather NOT sit on the objective. If its sitting on the objective i cant shift around to get LoS, i am further forward so more likely to get tagged by 36/48" guns, and it provides a "reward" for deepstrike-charging it. If its off on the side on its own, nobody wants to go towards it theyre gonna wanna shoot it and it just outranges everything. A random squad of grots is still the best backfield holder, theyre cheap and so small usually you cant even shoot them until youre pretty close.
A random squad of grots is still the best backfield holder, theyre cheap and so small usually you cant even shoot them until youre pretty close.
Exactly.
The thing in question needs to be cheap. Hell, as mek guns are single units, a single Mek gun that never fires all game but holds my backfield for 40 ppm? Worth every point.
The best backfield objective holders are:
1) cheap
2) Can contribute if possible.
Grots don't do 2, but they do 1 well enough. Plus it's a required slot. The only issue is if the enemy has any indirect, which is why I'd err towards Deff Koptas and Mek Guns.
And frankly, mechanized Orks should be doing stuff like Outriders, Vanguards, Spearheads, and patrols, and limiting their troop usage. We can get Obsec as Deathskulls via our much better non-troop infantry.
Edit: As a fun corollary, I don't know how often this has happened to everyone here, but I also find it *extremely* hard to even disembark 10 boys from a Trukk. My enemy has been able to surround them pretty effectively to the point where I've had to lose several models in nearly all of of my 9th games, simply because the enemy charged it on 1 side with a transport, and on the other side with the guys inside.
Beardedragon wrote: it doesnt have objective secure though in case infantry or pesky custodies jump at the point.
Neither do Trukk boys as they are sitting in their trukk?
To be honest, if your back objective is getting flooded as Orks, you've screwed the pooch, or are about to get tabled. And a trukk full of boys isn't going to stop a Custodes squad of anything lol.
It explodes on a 4+ too, so you can attempt a hail mary when it is too damaged, and try to charge an enemy unit (one with good AT close combat potential so its attacks will destroy the gunwagon), like terminators or thunderwolf cav.
6's actually, Gunwagons do the 4+.
you dont need to get flooded. you only need 1 single troop to arrive for you to lose the point, this could be done by deepstrike too or a fast unit.
Kannonwagon is pointles as a unit to hold backfield objective. Because Kannonwagon is good in driving around looking for right LOS.
Yeap, SMG and grots seems to be the best.
Disembark - I use Emergency disembark almost every game. Pretty nasty tricks can by done with 6” disembark.... on the building... behind the building.....
hey guys, i have a question thats part rule related but also strategy related.
When you charge an enemy with mortal wounds, like ramming speed and stampede from squiggoths, and your opponent removes those models in front of you so, after your charge, you are no longer within engagement range, are you still allowed to pile in? I mean you are technically not in combat now because those models were removed. This tie in to the question of when do you actually remove models?
Like when you have two units (Unit A and B) that charges a single unit (C). A attacks C and kills half of C, and C removes the models closest to B so hes not in engagement range anymore, does unit B still get to attack, given that he charged?
It was a bit of a discussion in my local play store today that we never really resolved. Some says that because B charged, he is allowed to attack, and that models are first removed after combat, not during combat. Others would say its a valid strategy and it doesnt matter if he charged, that doesnt mean he can attack when outside the 1 inch because C removed his models from the attacks made by A.
Does what im saying makes sense?
also i really hope that im still allowed to make a pile in when i deal mortal wounds on a charge, otherwise its pretty easy for such mortal wounds charges to be directly negative for me to even do.
What do you guys think? how shall it be understood? I cant find the proper answer in the core book.
“ An eligible unit is one that is within Engagement Range of an enemy unit and/or made a charge move in the same turn. If neither player has any eligible units to fight with, the Fight phase ends.”
Charge and fight are 2 different phases.
In charge phase, you charge and kill some stuff. This is removed.
In fight phase you are eligable to fight even if not in engagement range - just pile in and fight, etc.
Yes, removing models in front of the units can cause you troubles with charge. But in such case, it can' t be reason to skip you from fight. You have already charged, so your unit is eligeble to fight with the units / models that your unit charged and is able to get to engagement range via pile in.
It is worth noting that if you kill a lot of enemy models, for example if you use ramming speed on a Kill Tank or other MW dealing vehicule, you will mikemy dealing 2*3 MWs. So you could deal 6 MWs, in which case if your opponents' unit is pread out enough, you could theoretically not end up in eng range from one of the models, even after piling in.
I say theoretically because in practise, it is quite unlikely with the "models for units of 5+ must stay within 2' of at least 2 other models")
addnid wrote: It is worth noting that if you kill a lot of enemy models, for example if you use ramming speed on a Kill Tank or other MW dealing vehicule, you will mikemy dealing 2*3 MWs. So you could deal 6 MWs, in which case if your opponents' unit is pread out enough, you could theoretically not end up in eng range from one of the models, even after piling in.
I say theoretically because in practise, it is quite unlikely with the "models for units of 5+ must stay within 2' of at least 2 other models")
when i use ramming speed and big traks mortal wound ramming ability, MUST i roll for the mortal wounds or CAN i roll for it? say if I only just reach one model and i cant pile in to the next for what ever reason, am i allowed to not run mortal wound roll?
Tomsug wrote: “ An eligible unit is one that is within Engagement Range of an enemy unit and/or made a charge move in the same turn. If neither player has any eligible units to fight with, the Fight phase ends.”
Charge and fight are 2 different phases.
In charge phase, you charge and kill some stuff. This is removed.
In fight phase you are eligable to fight even if not in engagement range - just pile in and fight, etc.
Yes, removing models in front of the units can cause you troubles with charge. But in such case, it can' t be reason to skip you from fight. You have already charged, so your unit is eligeble to fight with the units / models that your unit charged and is able to get to engagement range via pile in.
I see what you're saying. So i still pile in even though im not within 1 inch engagement range because i dealt mortal wounds on my charge.
Jidmah wrote: If all else fails, we still have that weird stratagem that allows you to charge again if you wiped out your charge target with MW
Ah yes forgot about that one ! Good to keep that one in mind if ever the case arises. Just like the exploding on 4+ da boomer, these little things, remembered or forgotten, can mean the difference between a win and a lose.
@Beardedragon for the kill tank you have no choice, same for the sguiggoth and big trakk. The wording on each datasheet (can't remember if ramming speed lets you choose, don't have the codex with me here at work)
I think Jidmah picked the right strategy there. The onus of 9th is get to the midfield, be durable enough to stay there and have a plan to push the enemy away. (Hence CWE and Tau doing bad atm) As it was a decently durable horde, the Orks could sit and wait for the opponent to shift it when supported by the right secondaries.
The backfield plan may have been a tad risky and the Burna + stormies redundant. I envision something like a cheap mob or two (Grotz/Boyz) + klanker(s) of some for for fire support and counter attack + Kommandos. The mob(s) can scramble and screen deploy while Kommandos do their scrambling late game. The reason for scramblers is that it moves away a bit from an all eggs in one basket approach that Primary+Linebreaker+Direct Assault is.
Jidmah wrote: No, you pile in because units that have made a charge move are always eligible to fight.
well yes thats what i meant.
Forgot to write pile in.
But you dont get to pile in and hit when you didnt charge and just was in a fight phase, but enemy models were lost in front of you yes? so you left engagement range.
Jidmah wrote: No, you pile in because units that have made a charge move are always eligible to fight.
well yes thats what i meant.
Forgot to write pile in.
But you dont get to pile in and hit when you didnt charge and just was in a fight phase, but enemy models were lost in front of you yes? so you left engagement range.
Which is why "which unite fight first" is important, it can generate situations where the last unit to fight has no models within engagement range anymore. But perhaps that is not what you are talking about ? Sorry if I got you wrong
So when you guys use the Shokkjump dragstas with whirlygig, what do you use them for the most? They seem like a very versatile unit. I could see grabbing objectives, sniping characters, secondaries like engage on all fronts, movement blocking etc. Just curious what you use them for the most, and if there are any other uses I'm not thinking of.
Looking through the mega dread, does anyone Know wtf happened to the killsaw? It has a strength of 8 total Where as the deff dread saws has a strength of 9.
Jidmah wrote: No, you pile in because units that have made a charge move are always eligible to fight.
well yes thats what i meant.
Forgot to write pile in.
But you dont get to pile in and hit when you didnt charge and just was in a fight phase, but enemy models were lost in front of you yes? so you left engagement range.
Surely if you charged and units died and you leave engagement range, use get stuck in ladz means you get to pile in again? As a charging unit is Allowed to fight
Which is why "which unite fight first" is important, it can generate situations where the last unit to fight has no models within engagement range anymore. But perhaps that is not what you are talking about ? Sorry if I got you wrong
Weird. i wrote a response more but it didnt appear.
Anyway i wanted to write: If you charge, you get an attack, or a pile in at least. So in the scenario of Get stuck in ladz im thinking:
Charge --> Pile in --> Hit and kill someone --> now you are outside engagement range after your hitting phase was over. ---> end of fighting phase, everyone has hit including your enemy, now you toggle on, get stuck in ladz, ---> you get a new pile in ---> you hit, they die once again.
MrMoustaffa wrote: So when you guys use the Shokkjump dragstas with whirlygig, what do you use them for the most? They seem like a very versatile unit. I could see grabbing objectives, sniping characters, secondaries like engage on all fronts, movement blocking etc. Just curious what you use them for the most, and if there are any other uses I'm not thinking of.
I mostly use it for tagging objectives and secondaries like Engage and putting pressure on the opponent by slingshotting it into LOS of characters/squishy backfield units.
I've also used it to compensate for any errors in deployment and just plain getting out of compromising positions.
Beardedragon wrote: Looking through the mega dread, does anyone Know wtf happened to the killsaw? It has a strength of 8 total Where as the deff dread saws has a strength of 9.
Jidmah wrote: No, you pile in because units that have made a charge move are always eligible to fight.
well yes thats what i meant.
Forgot to write pile in.
But you dont get to pile in and hit when you didnt charge and just was in a fight phase, but enemy models were lost in front of you yes? so you left engagement range.
Surely if you charged and units died and you leave engagement range, use get stuck in ladz means you get to pile in again? As a charging unit is Allowed to fight
Which is why "which unite fight first" is important, it can generate situations where the last unit to fight has no models within engagement range anymore. But perhaps that is not what you are talking about ? Sorry if I got you wrong
Weird. i wrote a response more but it didnt appear.
Anyway i wanted to write: If you charge, you get an attack, or a pile in at least. So in the scenario of Get stuck in ladz im thinking:
Charge --> Pile in --> Hit and kill someone --> now you are outside engagement range after your hitting phase was over. ---> end of fighting phase, everyone has hit including your enemy, now you toggle on, get stuck in ladz, ---> you get a new pile in ---> you hit, they die once again.
Thats how i get it.
Don't forget that you consolidate after a unit fights which generally keeps you in engagement range unless you wipe the unit.
If you use a goff gorkanaut and use the smash profile, then you start out with 18hits to begin with when not injured. If you get a 6, does that too generate 3 more hits or just 1 more hit? If 3 more, then it would get a gazillion hits with just a few 6s? Which should happen with a start of 18 hits.
Im assuming its 3 extra, but that Also sounds borderline crazy
If you use a goff gorkanaut and use the smash profile, then you start out with 18hits to begin with when not injured. If you get a 6, does that too generate 3 more hits or just 1 more hit? If 3 more, then it would get a gazillion hits with just a few 6s? Which should happen with a start of 18 hits.
Im assuming its 3 extra, but that Also sounds borderline crazy
IIRC the goffs rule is to "make another to hit roll" and not to "make another attack" so each 6 generates 1 extra hit roll, and not 3.
Hm.. i thought it sounded borderline OP but i werent complaining given how i feel like what we can do is often subpar compared to what others can do. Playing versus a competitive death guard player yesterday that mopped the floor with my Goff Boyz with some synegies that i just dont see orks having. Many Ork stratagems are situational, and not very interesting. Some are good, but, yea. Like Extra stikkbombs which max out at 10 grenades, where as the death guard version seemingly dont have a max on ten. why i dont know. But yea i understand why the Gorkanaut shouldnt have 3 extra attacks with each hit. Essentially with good 6's you could sit on over 50 hits or something. that would be amazing tho.
But the Mega-Dread saw? Seems like a super terrible weapon, hits with strength 8 when a deff dread hits with strength 9 for a saw too. Why wouldnt you go for 2 klaws for the Mega Dread if you have to go melee anyway? Much better damage and over all stats for klaws than the saw.
that they dont go above 10 often doesnt matter to the balance of that ability. They CAN go above 10 meaning 20 grenades being flung in to my face with D6 type, if they attack my 30 stack boyz with just 15 grenades making 6 hits each? im gone with the wind. Unless you go Goff there isnt a whole lot of reason to go 11+ boyz as Orks anyway so why should we be max'd at 10 when others dont? doesnt seem fair. They can also couple it with a range 12 stratagem. Sure you blow more CP on it, but you also get to annihilate something with it.
And then theres the poxwalkers who can be giving extra additional mortal wounds on 6s which is pretty damn handy with that weird ability whos name i forgot, coupled with the character that forgoes charge phase so those that charged cant attack first, sitting inside a crowd of plaguemaries with cloud of flies so he also cant be attacked.
So i can neither remove him with ranged nor melee without going through those poxwalkers hitting me first with additional mortal wounds hits too.
with much terrain this can be quite a daunting task to deal with, when theres also a barrage of over 50 grenade hits flying over the walls hitting my boyz.
Because thats what i had to deal with last time when i played Goff. Sure if i had a gorkanaut or some chaff clearing it would be less painful but my chaff clearing was from Boyz, which got hit first by those mortal wounds poxwalkers. So yea, pretty good synegy, something which orks dont have at all.
I cant imagine being Khorne daemons and being unable to hit hit first on my own charge, that HQ unit just insane for his ability to nullify close range armies.
Beardedragon wrote: Hm.. i thought it sounded borderline OP but i werent complaining given how i feel like what we can do is often subpar compared to what others can do. Playing versus a competitive death guard player yesterday that mopped the floor with my Goff Boyz with some synegies that i just dont see orks having. Many Ork stratagems are situational, and not very interesting. Some are good, but, yea. Like Extra stikkbombs which max out at 10 grenades, where as the death guard version seemingly dont have a max on ten. why i dont know. But yea i understand why the Gorkanaut shouldnt have 3 extra attacks with each hit. Essentially with good 6's you could sit on over 50 hits or something. that would be amazing tho.
But the Mega-Dread saw? Seems like a super terrible weapon, hits with strength 8 when a deff dread hits with strength 9 for a saw too. Why wouldnt you go for 2 klaws for the Mega Dread if you have to go melee anyway? Much better damage and over all stats for klaws than the saw.
I think it's more that GW were scared to give Orks rules that other races got. Take the grenade strat. For other armies there arent no caps, with guardsmen you could combine 2 infantry squads and chuck 20 fragments grenades with grenadiers for instance.
A Gorka wouldnt be OP with 3 hits per 6. There are already armies out there that do that already, Blood Angel's, Space Wolves for instance which are far superior in combat that any Ork unit.
DDD's exploding 6s is just to gen an additional attack whilst other armies have it as an additional hit. And Orks dont exactly vomit shots out like some other factions.
Stuff like our relics, where our scorched git bones is +1 to cast to our powers of the Waaagh! others get +1 to cast and deny, reroll a dice/know an extra spell.
So whilst it might feel OP to us, it's pretty much the norm to others. Ragnar with touch of the wild back when it was around was crazy, what about Blood Angels now with like 5-6 attacks a model for Deathcompany with up to AP 3 chainswords when you get it all set up right.
Orks have the potential if GW wouldnt purposefully stunt our units effectiveness compared to Imperial equivalents.
I'd wager the Gorka/Morkas will get some work when our codex comes round.
Beardedragon wrote: Hm.. i thought it sounded borderline OP but i werent complaining given how i feel like what we can do is often subpar compared to what others can do. Playing versus a competitive death guard player yesterday that mopped the floor with my Goff Boyz with some synegies that i just dont see orks having. Many Ork stratagems are situational, and not very interesting. Some are good, but, yea. Like Extra stikkbombs which max out at 10 grenades, where as the death guard version seemingly dont have a max on ten. why i dont know. But yea i understand why the Gorkanaut shouldnt have 3 extra attacks with each hit. Essentially with good 6's you could sit on over 50 hits or something. that would be amazing tho.
But the Mega-Dread saw? Seems like a super terrible weapon, hits with strength 8 when a deff dread hits with strength 9 for a saw too. Why wouldnt you go for 2 klaws for the Mega Dread if you have to go melee anyway? Much better damage and over all stats for klaws than the saw.
I think it's more that GW were scared to give Orks rules that other races got. Take the grenade strat. For other armies there arent no caps, with guardsmen you could combine 2 infantry squads and chuck 20 fragments grenades with grenadiers for instance.
A Gorka wouldnt be OP with 3 hits per 6. There are already armies out there that do that already, Blood Angel's, Space Wolves for instance which are far superior in combat that any Ork unit.
DDD's exploding 6s is just to gen an additional attack whilst other armies have it as an additional hit. And Orks dont exactly vomit shots out like some other factions.
Stuff like our relics, where our scorched git bones is +1 to cast to our powers of the Waaagh! others get +1 to cast and deny, reroll a dice/know an extra spell.
So whilst it might feel OP to us, it's pretty much the norm to others. Ragnar with touch of the wild back when it was around was crazy, what about Blood Angels now with like 5-6 attacks a model for Deathcompany with up to AP 3 chainswords when you get it all set up right.
Orks have the potential if GW wouldnt purposefully stunt our units effectiveness compared to Imperial equivalents.
I'd wager the Gorka/Morkas will get some work when our codex comes round.
You are right. it bothered me when i played, i think it was custodies, and they had something that gave him an extra hit on, i think a 6, and not a hit roll. Why must i do a roll when he just gets the hit?
I feel like many things orks has is just so inferior to what others have for seemingly no reason. Bad HQ choices that are all only able to do one thing not several (where as other HQ choices can do many things often), Only one psyker that dont even have a pistol, a warboss that can literally only attack and has nothing else going for him except the charge aura, a big mek with KFF that should not be an HQ choice, the KFF should have been something the regular "mek" can have thus making him useful. Big mek with KFF feels like a damn elite choice. the same goes for the Shokk attack gun version. Other HQ choices often also have interesting aura abilities, which we mostly, again, do not.
No invul saves on anything at all except ghaz and relics and kustom jobs for maybe the battlewagon and you know what? i dont mind not having much invul save, if our characters and units just hit better to make up for it, or something. And grots units that cant use stratagems nor be affected by kulture, and despite this, their price isnt adjusted accordingly. GW just looked at the stats and went: yea this seem right" and forgot about the fact they cant be buffed by stratagems nor kulture.
Boring stratagems that are often situational, very few can be used in most battles no matter what set up you use (when CANT death guard use cloud of flies?). Psyker abilities that are subpar to what others can do. Like "BLADES OF PUTREFACTION" which is just borderline psychotic for a psyker to be able to cast, when what we can do is Ead' banger, Warpath and Roar of Mork. The last one is useless, Ead' Banger is situational by a large margin, and Warpath is decent, but not as good as Blades of Putrefaction. Even Da Jump is situational, yet very good, but compared to what other psykers have, our psychic abilities just arent interesting at all. Da Jump is great tho but it becomes situational when we only ever invest in 1 psyker in our army due to all the other things we need (warbosses of a sort, often a KFF and weirdboy) and with the lack of psychic abilities on other characters, then our psyker just.. cant cast enough psychic abilites. I feel like with the ork setup meta, our weirdboy should be able to cast two abilities by standard and 3 with Warphead + deny the with 3 times with warphead. We have one da jump spot, one smite, and one other utility ability that often ends up being Fist of Gork.
Also CURSE OF THE LEPER which will mostly target chaff infantry that has either 3 or 4 toughness, you are bound to kill quite a few units. We have Da Krunch which only destroys units on 6's. Yes we can potentially do it again, but thats unlikely to happen. Curse of the Leper is just outright better.
It is a completely personal opinion when i say, that Orks dont have very interesting synegy with one another, and our stratagems and psychic abilities are not interesting either. We have a focus on attacking, yet even our attacks dont seem very good. Ork Boyz dont even have -1 AP on our choppas. Also our save is on 6 for boyz, where as i believe Guardsmen have a save of 5. how does that even make sense.
The new Codex cant come fast enough, as there are so many things i feel like need changing.
Also whats up with the big shoota? 3 shots with strength 5 no AP? yea right. I get its assymetrical, and factions shouldnt be mirrored, but i dont feel like Orks are good enough at what they're meant to be good at, namely attacking. And maybe thats because i started out playing as Goff, but from 8th to 9th there was also just a huge wave of nerfs for close range units that just didnt help at all.
I didnt even mean to start a rant yet here i am. I just look at many of my things and catch my self thinking: compared to what others have, what I have, is often utter garbage. It doesnt mean the Orks dont have redeeming factors, they are just far in between these days i feel. The only reason the Goff list is winning tournements is because everyone else brings anti elite armies and .. well Goff isnt exactly elite focused, so they waste +2 damage shots on boyz.
Beardedragon wrote: Boring stratagems that are often situational, very few can be used in most battles no matter what set up you use (when CANT death guard use cloud of flies?).
Cloud of flies must be used in your movement phase, before you know how your shooting and assaults go, only works on infantry and only protects units from not getting shot unless it's the closest. For armies like harlequins this is but a minor inconvenience.
Psyker abilities that are subpar to what others can do. Like "BLADES OF PUTREFACTION" which is just borderline psychotic for a psyker to be able to cast, when what we can do is Ead' banger, Warpath and Roar of Mork. The last one is useless, Ead' Banger is situational by a large margin, and Warpath is decent, but not as good as Blades of Putrefaction.
What makes you think blades is better? Because it would be insane on boyz? That's precisely why orks shouldn't have something like that.
Also CURSE OF THE LEPER which will mostly target chaff infantry that has either 3 or 4 toughness, you are bound to kill quite a few units. We have Da Krunch which only destroys units on 6's. Yes we can potentially do it again, but thats unlikely to happen. Curse of the Leper is just outright better.
Curse of the leper is warpcharge 7 and there is no way to get a casting bonus for DG. Against T3 it deals 3-4 mortal wounds, against T4 does 2-3.
A weird boy with 30 orks nearby not only almost always succeed smite, but rolling a 7+ will cause d6 mortal wounds to any target, irrespective of its toughness.
Da Krunch does the exact same thing als DG's Plague Wind, but it has a change to trigger twice, while plague wind doesn't.
i dont feel like Orks are good enough at what they're meant to be good at, namely attacking. And maybe thats because i started out playing as Goff, but from 8th to 9th there was also just a huge wave of nerfs for close range units that just didnt help at all.
Melee and goff became massively more powerful from 8th to 9th, up to the point where they are regularly taking tournaments. Having played them myself, I can assure you that Goff have never been more powerful.
The only reason the Goff list is winning tournements is because everyone else brings anti elite armies and .. well Goff isnt exactly elite focused, so they waste +2 damage shots on boyz.
Yeah, no. Goff are winning tournaments because everyone is going into melee in the middle of the board to get objectives and that is exactly what goffs are the best at.
Yeah goffs are winning because the main reason they sucked in 8th is gone - they want melee, they want it fast, but had no way to get it fast.
Now its fast. Either the enemy comes to you, or the enemy isnt scoring.
Beardedragon wrote: Hm.. i thought it sounded borderline OP but i werent complaining given how i feel like what we can do is often subpar compared to what others can do. Playing versus a competitive death guard player yesterday that mopped the floor with my Goff Boyz with some synegies that i just dont see orks having. Many Ork stratagems are situational, and not very interesting. Some are good, but, yea. Like Extra stikkbombs which max out at 10 grenades, where as the death guard version seemingly dont have a max on ten. why i dont know. But yea i understand why the Gorkanaut shouldnt have 3 extra attacks with each hit. Essentially with good 6's you could sit on over 50 hits or something. that would be amazing tho.
But the Mega-Dread saw? Seems like a super terrible weapon, hits with strength 8 when a deff dread hits with strength 9 for a saw too. Why wouldnt you go for 2 klaws for the Mega Dread if you have to go melee anyway? Much better damage and over all stats for klaws than the saw.
I think it's more that GW were scared to give Orks rules that other races got. Take the grenade strat. For other armies there arent no caps, with guardsmen you could combine 2 infantry squads and chuck 20 fragments grenades with grenadiers for instance.
A Gorka wouldnt be OP with 3 hits per 6. There are already armies out there that do that already, Blood Angel's, Space Wolves for instance which are far superior in combat that any Ork unit.
DDD's exploding 6s is just to gen an additional attack whilst other armies have it as an additional hit. And Orks dont exactly vomit shots out like some other factions.
Stuff like our relics, where our scorched git bones is +1 to cast to our powers of the Waaagh! others get +1 to cast and deny, reroll a dice/know an extra spell.
So whilst it might feel OP to us, it's pretty much the norm to others. Ragnar with touch of the wild back when it was around was crazy, what about Blood Angels now with like 5-6 attacks a model for Deathcompany with up to AP 3 chainswords when you get it all set up right.
Orks have the potential if GW wouldnt purposefully stunt our units effectiveness compared to Imperial equivalents.
I'd wager the Gorka/Morkas will get some work when our codex comes round.
You are right. it bothered me when i played, i think it was custodies, and they had something that gave him an extra hit on, i think a 6, and not a hit roll. Why must i do a roll when he just gets the hit?
I feel like many things orks has is just so inferior to what others have for seemingly no reason. Bad HQ choices that are all only able to do one thing not several (where as other HQ choices can do many things often), Only one psyker that dont even have a pistol, a warboss that can literally only attack and has nothing else going for him except the charge aura, a big mek with KFF that should not be an HQ choice, the KFF should have been something the regular "mek" can have thus making him useful. Big mek with KFF feels like a damn elite choice. the same goes for the Shokk attack gun version. Other HQ choices often also have interesting aura abilities, which we mostly, again, do not.
No invul saves on anything at all except ghaz and relics and kustom jobs for maybe the battlewagon and you know what? i dont mind not having much invul save, if our characters and units just hit better to make up for it, or something. And grots units that cant use stratagems nor be affected by kulture, and despite this, their price isnt adjusted accordingly. GW just looked at the stats and went: yea this seem right" and forgot about the fact they cant be buffed by stratagems nor kulture.
Boring stratagems that are often situational, very few can be used in most battles no matter what set up you use (when CANT death guard use cloud of flies?). Psyker abilities that are subpar to what others can do. Like "BLADES OF PUTREFACTION" which is just borderline psychotic for a psyker to be able to cast, when what we can do is Ead' banger, Warpath and Roar of Mork. The last one is useless, Ead' Banger is situational by a large margin, and Warpath is decent, but not as good as Blades of Putrefaction. Even Da Jump is situational, yet very good, but compared to what other psykers have, our psychic abilities just arent interesting at all. Da Jump is great tho but it becomes situational when we only ever invest in 1 psyker in our army due to all the other things we need (warbosses of a sort, often a KFF and weirdboy) and with the lack of psychic abilities on other characters, then our psyker just.. cant cast enough psychic abilites. I feel like with the ork setup meta, our weirdboy should be able to cast two abilities by standard and 3 with Warphead + deny the with 3 times with warphead. We have one da jump spot, one smite, and one other utility ability that often ends up being Fist of Gork.
Also CURSE OF THE LEPER which will mostly target chaff infantry that has either 3 or 4 toughness, you are bound to kill quite a few units. We have Da Krunch which only destroys units on 6's. Yes we can potentially do it again, but thats unlikely to happen. Curse of the Leper is just outright better.
It is a completely personal opinion when i say, that Orks dont have very interesting synegy with one another, and our stratagems and psychic abilities are not interesting either. We have a focus on attacking, yet even our attacks dont seem very good. Ork Boyz dont even have -1 AP on our choppas. Also our save is on 6 for boyz, where as i believe Guardsmen have a save of 5. how does that even make sense.
The new Codex cant come fast enough, as there are so many things i feel like need changing.
Also whats up with the big shoota? 3 shots with strength 5 no AP? yea right. I get its assymetrical, and factions shouldnt be mirrored, but i dont feel like Orks are good enough at what they're meant to be good at, namely attacking. And maybe thats because i started out playing as Goff, but from 8th to 9th there was also just a huge wave of nerfs for close range units that just didnt help at all.
I didnt even mean to start a rant yet here i am. I just look at many of my things and catch my self thinking: compared to what others have, what I have, is often utter garbage. It doesnt mean the Orks dont have redeeming factors, they are just far in between these days i feel. The only reason the Goff list is winning tournements is because everyone else brings anti elite armies and .. well Goff isnt exactly elite focused, so they waste +2 damage shots on boyz.
No offense, but you seem to have the "grass is greener" perspective at the moment given that you're pretty new to Orks and 40k in general it seems. Orks actually haven't been in a good place like we have been now in a long time, where we have both green tide and buggy spam being viable competitively at the same time (though not to the exact same level for one another depending on the meta). For once we don't have to rely on gimmicks like Evil Sunz+Da Jumping/Tellyporting to get to grips with the opponent, with the changes in 9th ed, the opponents are for once coming to us, which gives us a whole new playing field. Are there areas of improvements Orks need? Sure. But if you look at the rankings for Orks so far, we're doing a LOT better than some other factions, Death Guard included. Want to feel better about Orks? Read the rules on Imperial Guard, Craftworld Eldar and Tau. Now those guys have it rough.
Goffs trump Evil Suns because the speed they give isn't that relevant anymore.
It's not incorrect to say Green Tide is benefiting in tournaments from an eagle eyed focus on Space Marines. In fact, the green tide list would probably be irrelevant if another horde army was popular.
I am not sure buggy lists are still that relevant. Perhaps they were a few months ago, but recently they haven't seemed to be winning much (or is it just me ? Perhaps I missed some tourney results proving my point wrong)
From having played a few games against against actually powerful lists operated by decent players and having dug into tournament reports and lists a bit, I think the massively reduced ability to gun down hordes does not stem from everyone tailoring against marines, but because people are dropping shooting units in favor of melee units and durable objectives campers.
Even powerful melee units like troupes or blade guard bounce off a 30 strong blob of boyz since morale no longer helps killing them.
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addnid wrote: I am not sure buggy lists are still that relevant. Perhaps they were a few months ago, but recently they haven't seemed to be winning much (or is it just me ? Perhaps I missed some tourney results proving my point wrong)
Goonhammer's data seems to imply that the list is indeed powerful and is winning a lot, but fails to win tournaments because some armies are just hard counters to them, with the biggest offender being harlequins. Almost army-wide -1 to hit and dozens of meltas just wreck buggies.
I think it's more that GW were scared to give Orks rules that other races got. Take the grenade strat. For other armies there arent no caps, with guardsmen you could combine 2 infantry squads and chuck 20 fragments grenades with grenadiers for instance.
Just a heads up, the guard Grenadiers strategem is written pretty much identically to the Ork one. We can only chuck 10 grenades as well. If a guard player is using that and having 30 conscripts or a combined 20 man squad throwing grenades at you tell him to read his codex some more. Part of why I like to ask people if I can flip through their codexes. Usually just helps me with familiarizing myself with new armies but also helps you call people out when they forget how something like that works. I may not even read anything when I'm flipping through the codex, but that little action gives me the authority to say something like "hey I just flipped through your codex and I'm pretty sure it didnt work that way."
As far as the grass being greener, try playing guard. It should be a pretty good hint that guard are in a rough spot if I'm looking at picking up orks to have some more enjoyable games. We're basically trending listwise into a worse version of you guys. Heavy reliance on infantry but our infantry are either 10 man squads or conscripts, we'd kill to have platoons back. Most of our tanks are overpriced for what they do so we're reliant on the hilariously OP Manticore as a crutch, and we still have an awful winrate even taking two of those.
As a new player looking in from other factions POV, orks are in a good spot. Boyz are good and I like the buggies. Are you OP as harlies? No, but that's a good thing. You guys are good but not BS, not something I cant say for Harlies or just the sheer amount of options marines have.
Jidmah wrote: From having played a few games against against actually powerful lists operated by decent players and having dug into tournament reports and lists a bit, I think the massively reduced ability to gun down hordes does not stem from everyone tailoring against marines, but because people are dropping shooting units in favor of melee units and durable objectives campers.
Even powerful melee units like troupes or blade guard bounce off a 30 strong blob of boyz since morale no longer helps killing them.
Both these things can be true at the same time. I suppose it might be difficult to say for sure if one is more causal than the other.
I wonder if Silent King / Silver tide lists will make people think of taking different kinds of melee units -- 20 warriors and 30 boys sort of pose the same problem in that you wanna wipe both out in 1 go.
Beardedragon wrote: Hm.. i thought it sounded borderline OP but i werent complaining given how i feel like what we can do is often subpar compared to what others can do. Playing versus a competitive death guard player yesterday that mopped the floor with my Goff Boyz with some synegies that i just dont see orks having. Many Ork stratagems are situational, and not very interesting. Some are good, but, yea. Like Extra stikkbombs which max out at 10 grenades, where as the death guard version seemingly dont have a max on ten. why i dont know. But yea i understand why the Gorkanaut shouldnt have 3 extra attacks with each hit. Essentially with good 6's you could sit on over 50 hits or something. that would be amazing tho.
But the Mega-Dread saw? Seems like a super terrible weapon, hits with strength 8 when a deff dread hits with strength 9 for a saw too. Why wouldnt you go for 2 klaws for the Mega Dread if you have to go melee anyway? Much better damage and over all stats for klaws than the saw.
I think it's more that GW were scared to give Orks rules that other races got. Take the grenade strat. For other armies there arent no caps, with guardsmen you could combine 2 infantry squads and chuck 20 fragments grenades with grenadiers for instance.
A Gorka wouldnt be OP with 3 hits per 6. There are already armies out there that do that already, Blood Angel's, Space Wolves for instance which are far superior in combat that any Ork unit.
DDD's exploding 6s is just to gen an additional attack whilst other armies have it as an additional hit. And Orks dont exactly vomit shots out like some other factions.
Stuff like our relics, where our scorched git bones is +1 to cast to our powers of the Waaagh! others get +1 to cast and deny, reroll a dice/know an extra spell.
So whilst it might feel OP to us, it's pretty much the norm to others. Ragnar with touch of the wild back when it was around was crazy, what about Blood Angels now with like 5-6 attacks a model for Deathcompany with up to AP 3 chainswords when you get it all set up right.
Orks have the potential if GW wouldnt purposefully stunt our units effectiveness compared to Imperial equivalents.
I'd wager the Gorka/Morkas will get some work when our codex comes round.
You are right. it bothered me when i played, i think it was custodies, and they had something that gave him an extra hit on, i think a 6, and not a hit roll. Why must i do a roll when he just gets the hit?
I feel like many things orks has is just so inferior to what others have for seemingly no reason. Bad HQ choices that are all only able to do one thing not several (where as other HQ choices can do many things often), Only one psyker that dont even have a pistol, a warboss that can literally only attack and has nothing else going for him except the charge aura, a big mek with KFF that should not be an HQ choice, the KFF should have been something the regular "mek" can have thus making him useful. Big mek with KFF feels like a damn elite choice. the same goes for the Shokk attack gun version. Other HQ choices often also have interesting aura abilities, which we mostly, again, do not.
No invul saves on anything at all except ghaz and relics and kustom jobs for maybe the battlewagon and you know what? i dont mind not having much invul save, if our characters and units just hit better to make up for it, or something. And grots units that cant use stratagems nor be affected by kulture, and despite this, their price isnt adjusted accordingly. GW just looked at the stats and went: yea this seem right" and forgot about the fact they cant be buffed by stratagems nor kulture.
Boring stratagems that are often situational, very few can be used in most battles no matter what set up you use (when CANT death guard use cloud of flies?). Psyker abilities that are subpar to what others can do. Like "BLADES OF PUTREFACTION" which is just borderline psychotic for a psyker to be able to cast, when what we can do is Ead' banger, Warpath and Roar of Mork. The last one is useless, Ead' Banger is situational by a large margin, and Warpath is decent, but not as good as Blades of Putrefaction. Even Da Jump is situational, yet very good, but compared to what other psykers have, our psychic abilities just arent interesting at all. Da Jump is great tho but it becomes situational when we only ever invest in 1 psyker in our army due to all the other things we need (warbosses of a sort, often a KFF and weirdboy) and with the lack of psychic abilities on other characters, then our psyker just.. cant cast enough psychic abilites. I feel like with the ork setup meta, our weirdboy should be able to cast two abilities by standard and 3 with Warphead + deny the with 3 times with warphead. We have one da jump spot, one smite, and one other utility ability that often ends up being Fist of Gork.
Also CURSE OF THE LEPER which will mostly target chaff infantry that has either 3 or 4 toughness, you are bound to kill quite a few units. We have Da Krunch which only destroys units on 6's. Yes we can potentially do it again, but thats unlikely to happen. Curse of the Leper is just outright better.
It is a completely personal opinion when i say, that Orks dont have very interesting synegy with one another, and our stratagems and psychic abilities are not interesting either. We have a focus on attacking, yet even our attacks dont seem very good. Ork Boyz dont even have -1 AP on our choppas. Also our save is on 6 for boyz, where as i believe Guardsmen have a save of 5. how does that even make sense.
The new Codex cant come fast enough, as there are so many things i feel like need changing.
Also whats up with the big shoota? 3 shots with strength 5 no AP? yea right. I get its assymetrical, and factions shouldnt be mirrored, but i dont feel like Orks are good enough at what they're meant to be good at, namely attacking. And maybe thats because i started out playing as Goff, but from 8th to 9th there was also just a huge wave of nerfs for close range units that just didnt help at all.
I didnt even mean to start a rant yet here i am. I just look at many of my things and catch my self thinking: compared to what others have, what I have, is often utter garbage. It doesnt mean the Orks dont have redeeming factors, they are just far in between these days i feel. The only reason the Goff list is winning tournements is because everyone else brings anti elite armies and .. well Goff isnt exactly elite focused, so they waste +2 damage shots on boyz.
Its fine to rant haha! I do it quite often too, Orks are my love and I want more from them. Im not a Goffs player, i have my own Warboss with his own story so I dont want to be shoehorned into playing Ghaz. Its just that a lot of the things that define our army is from prior editions. Statlines, rules, guns. Orks are living in an diffierent edition and I dont even mean 8th. A 6+ save is pretty much null and void, too some extend so is a 5+ save when you have Marines and Necrons flooding the meta with high AP attacks that they seem to get just for free.
Choppas, shootas, these are weapos that were fine taking on your single wound marine, be it power armour or terminator armour. That isnt the case now, and with cover being a +1 save it gets even more aggregious. We have to rely on Nob leaders to give us some hitting power and they arent that great at it too. Im fed up of Marines having crazy volume of attacks with either rerolls or just AP. What does a Boss nob do with base 3 attacks? What makes Meganobz unique against 3 wound terminators with the same amount of attacks and an invun? A Warboss who cant tangle with a Captain or a Chaplain.
Orks are kind of built around the idea of spam, but as the editions go on we slowly start loosing that horde feel. The rule of 3 stops us from having more of our specialist units, we're more expensive compared to our Imperial counterparts, our strats are either restrictive or costly, the weapons that we have available to us just dont have the punch and our characters arent really force multiplers but we pay quite a lot for them.
It "should" get better with a 9th ed codex, especially if there is someone on the design team that loves them and is willing to give them the rules that best suit them. Stuff like the Warbosses Waaagh! should be an army ability akin to what Orruk Warclans get. Let the Warboss/Speedboss do something else for the boys, let him get stronger by killing other characters/vehicles/monsters like a Megaboss does.
The last thing that honestly bothers me, that i forgot to write and i think its actually my biggest annoyance, is the objective secure thing.
Looking through eldar and many other factions troop list, they have like 5 different types of units that gets objective secure, where as we only have 2 units, the Grots and Boyz.
And thats what makes no sense to begin with, as Burna Boyz, Stormboyz and Tank bustas arent even nobz but regular boyz with different weapons. I get they aint troops but placed in elite or fast attack, but everything related to boyz at the very least, should have objective secure.
The fact i can charge up my Nobz and beat up all but a single plague marine or custodian guard or what ever and STILL lose the objective, isnt balanced at all. Nobz and what ever type of boy you use can be as much part of an ork army as boyz and grots can be.
All Ork infantry should have objective secure. Maybe not Mega Nobz but the rest should.
Its for this reason i want to try and make a death guard list at the side (well that and the Buggy spam and vehicle spam to try something different)
I think it's more that GW were scared to give Orks rules that other races got. Take the grenade strat. For other armies there arent no caps, with guardsmen you could combine 2 infantry squads and chuck 20 fragments grenades with grenadiers for instance.
Just a heads up, the guard Grenadiers strategem is written pretty much identically to the Ork one. We can only chuck 10 grenades as well. If a guard player is using that and having 30 conscripts or a combined 20 man squad throwing grenades at you tell him to read his codex some more. Part of why I like to ask people if I can flip through their codexes. Usually just helps me with familiarizing myself with new armies but also helps you call people out when they forget how something like that works. I may not even read anything when I'm flipping through the codex, but that little action gives me the authority to say something like "hey I just flipped through your codex and I'm pretty sure it didnt work that way."
As far as the grass being greener, try playing guard. It should be a pretty good hint that guard are in a rough spot if I'm looking at picking up orks to have some more enjoyable games. We're basically trending listwise into a worse version of you guys. Heavy reliance on infantry but our infantry are either 10 man squads or conscripts, we'd kill to have platoons back. Most of our tanks are overpriced for what they do so we're reliant on the hilariously OP Manticore as a crutch, and we still have an awful winrate even taking two of those.
As a new player looking in from other factions POV, orks are in a good spot. Boyz are good and I like the buggies. Are you OP as harlies? No, but that's a good thing. You guys are good but not BS, not something I cant say for Harlies or just the sheer amount of options marines have.
All 8th edition Codexes have their own problems right now, Guard, Eldar, T'au, GSC. They all play differently from one another and so do Orks so we cant really lump them all together, when each has their own play style, merits and weaknesses. Guard might have overcosted tanks, but so do Orks with other units. Would you take a Gunwagon without Da Boomer? Would you take a Morkanaut without BS4?
Boys arent really in a good spot. Cool if you play Goffs with Ghaz, but we arent all playing that. Buggies too, with the rise of new weapon profiles gaining more shots/damage and the buggies being pretty overcosted for what they bring to the table, they just get blasted off the board so quick whilst not really having that large of an impact on the field. Having played Orks since 4th ed, you can watch the slow decline of the humble Boy, I dont know who thought 8ppm a model was a good price.
Goffs are strong right now due to str 5 Scarboyz, Ghazghkull and the fact most armies are gearing up to take on Primaris and that implies more elite style armies with melee supremacy units for a lot of these factions: Harlies, Blood Angels, White Scars, Space Wolves and to some extend Novokh Necrons.
A Guard player might look and Ork army and go we need to be like that whilst on the opposite side the Ork player is looking at the Guard army wishing they had the stuff they do. We just arent written for 9th ed like SM and Necrons are, even our PA books didnt really prepare us for it and that puts everyone on the bookfoot regardless. Ork players should be able to look at what other have and want the same if not more. The actions of 1 person winning a tournament doesnt reflect on all of us. I might be great with Evil Sunz but im not using Goffs. His wins arent reflective of what my army can do.
Beardedragon wrote: The last thing that honestly bothers me, that i forgot to write and i think its actually my biggest annoyance, is the objective secure thing.
Looking through eldar and many other factions troop list, they have like 5 different types of units that gets objective secure, where as we only have 2 units, the Grots and Boyz.
And thats what makes no sense to begin with, as Burna Boyz, Stormboyz and Tank bustas arent even nobz but regular boyz with different weapons. I get they aint troops but placed in elite or fast attack, but everything related to boyz at the very least, should have objective secure.
The fact i can charge up my Nobz and beat up all but a single plague marine or custodian guard or what ever and STILL lose the objective, isnt balanced at all. Nobz and what ever type of boy you use can be as much part of an ork army as boyz and grots can be.
All Ork infantry should have objective secure. Maybe not Mega Nobz but the rest should.
Its for this reason i want to try and make a death guard list at the side (well that and the Buggy spam and vehicle spam to try something different)
Uhhhhhhh, you know you can get objective secured on all infantry by taking Deffskullz as your klan right? Including Meganobz, and all the other elites you've mentioned. Half of your complaint just smacks of you not knowing the game and the Ork army in general. Again, you haven't played previous editions in the game, where back in 5th ed. literally only troops could score objectives. So objective secured right now is a nice compromise without invalidating entire unit choices because they're not troops and therefore have no value other than body-blocking or killing enemy units.
Your ignorance is further seen from how you include Eldar....ELDAR of all as one of the people you're complaining about for their troops list is...laughable to say the least. Eldar have some of the most overpriced troops in the game and they do diddly squat. They have Rangers, Dire Avengers, and Guardians (Storm and Regular, but they're basically the same outside of a weapon swap). So functionally 1 more than us. And boyz are a LOT better than all 3. I do want Nobz to become a troops option personally, but you have to be a bit more cognisant of your bias and overall lack of knowledge. Most armies don't have more viable troops than one or two choices. The only exception to the rule IMO are Space Marines (surprise, surprise!) and that's because GW is really pushing the new Primaris range more than anything else.
Beardedragon wrote: The last thing that honestly bothers me, that i forgot to write and i think its actually my biggest annoyance, is the objective secure thing.
Looking through eldar and many other factions troop list, they have like 5 different types of units that gets objective secure, where as we only have 2 units, the Grots and Boyz.
And thats what makes no sense to begin with, as Burna Boyz, Stormboyz and Tank bustas arent even nobz but regular boyz with different weapons. I get they aint troops but placed in elite or fast attack, but everything related to boyz at the very least, should have objective secure.
The fact i can charge up my Nobz and beat up all but a single plague marine or custodian guard or what ever and STILL lose the objective, isnt balanced at all. Nobz and what ever type of boy you use can be as much part of an ork army as boyz and grots can be.
All Ork infantry should have objective secure. Maybe not Mega Nobz but the rest should.
Its for this reason i want to try and make a death guard list at the side (well that and the Buggy spam and vehicle spam to try something different)
Again i think its to do with Orks being stuck in a different edition in terms of what the design team whats us to be like. Nobz back in the day were mean, they were bullies, they could go toe to toe with more elite SM like Vanguard Veterans, Terminators, Dreadnoughts but as more and more Primaris got realised the water got more muddy as what an elite should be. Some how an Intercessor is a Troop option, hell the Heavy Intercessor is, but a Nob isnt?! Nobz bully anything smaller than them, if they have their eyes set on something they want ot should be theirs so they should be Obsec. But as more and more codexes get realised there are more ways to grant Obsec auras or to turn off Obsec. And this isnt helped by the huge list of what is core for SM.
Stuff like Skarboyz, Ardboyz should be units that are troops. Ive always hated that we have to pay CP for things that should just be pts and that is starting to come back in the new Codexes. Grots need something to make them feel worth the 5pts they are, give them a rule where they can pinch and objective and move it, weve seen this in Sons of Behemat with the Kraken Eater Mega-gargant, if anyone would be looting stuff its us Orks. GW just needs to be more creative with our rules, stuff that resembles Orky behaviour and lore.
Beardedragon wrote: The last thing that honestly bothers me, that i forgot to write and i think its actually my biggest annoyance, is the objective secure thing.
Looking through eldar and many other factions troop list, they have like 5 different types of units that gets objective secure, where as we only have 2 units, the Grots and Boyz.
And thats what makes no sense to begin with, as Burna Boyz, Stormboyz and Tank bustas arent even nobz but regular boyz with different weapons. I get they aint troops but placed in elite or fast attack, but everything related to boyz at the very least, should have objective secure.
The fact i can charge up my Nobz and beat up all but a single plague marine or custodian guard or what ever and STILL lose the objective, isnt balanced at all. Nobz and what ever type of boy you use can be as much part of an ork army as boyz and grots can be.
All Ork infantry should have objective secure. Maybe not Mega Nobz but the rest should.
Its for this reason i want to try and make a death guard list at the side (well that and the Buggy spam and vehicle spam to try something different)
Uhhhhhhh, you know you can get objective secured on all infantry by taking Deffskullz as your klan right? Including Meganobz, and all the other elites you've mentioned. Half of your complaint just smacks of you not knowing the game and the Ork army in general. Again, you haven't played previous editions in the game, where back in 5th ed. literally only troops could score objectives. So objective secured right now is a nice compromise without invalidating entire unit choices because they're not troops and therefore have no value other than body-blocking or killing enemy units.
Your ignorance is further seen from how you include Eldar....ELDAR of all as one of the people you're complaining about for their troops list is...laughable to say the least. Eldar have some of the most overpriced troops in the game and they do diddly squat. They have Rangers, Dire Avengers, and Guardians (Storm and Regular, but they're basically the same outside of a weapon swap). So functionally 1 more than us. And boyz are a LOT better than all 3. I do want Nobz to become a troops option personally, but you have to be a bit more cognisant of your bias and overall lack of knowledge. Most armies don't have more viable troops than one or two choices. The only exception to the rule IMO are Space Marines (surprise, surprise!) and that's because GW is really pushing the new Primaris range more than anything else.
Not all of us play Deathskulls though Grimskul, and we shouldnt be forced to, so dont go too hard on him. You shouldnt have a go at him for his opinions on what he has experienced. Our answers to are problems shouldnt be "play Goffs / play Deathskulls". There is nothing wrong with wanting all playstyles to be viable, the same with the Clans. Me personally, im not playing Orks until we have a new codex for 9e, for all I know kustom jobs will go poof when the PA becomes invalid with the new Dex, Da Biggest Boss too.
Beardedragon wrote: The last thing that honestly bothers me, that i forgot to write and i think its actually my biggest annoyance, is the objective secure thing.
Looking through eldar and many other factions troop list, they have like 5 different types of units that gets objective secure, where as we only have 2 units, the Grots and Boyz.
And thats what makes no sense to begin with, as Burna Boyz, Stormboyz and Tank bustas arent even nobz but regular boyz with different weapons. I get they aint troops but placed in elite or fast attack, but everything related to boyz at the very least, should have objective secure.
The fact i can charge up my Nobz and beat up all but a single plague marine or custodian guard or what ever and STILL lose the objective, isnt balanced at all. Nobz and what ever type of boy you use can be as much part of an ork army as boyz and grots can be.
All Ork infantry should have objective secure. Maybe not Mega Nobz but the rest should.
Its for this reason i want to try and make a death guard list at the side (well that and the Buggy spam and vehicle spam to try something different)
Again i think its to do with Orks being stuck in a different edition in terms of what the design team whats us to be like. Nobz back in the day were mean, they were bullies, they could go toe to toe with more elite SM like Vanguard Veterans, Terminators, Dreadnoughts but as more and more Primaris got realised the water got more muddy as what an elite should be. Some how an Intercessor is a Troop option, hell the Heavy Intercessor is, but a Nob isnt?! Nobz bully anything smaller than them, if they have their eyes set on something they want ot should be theirs so they should be Obsec. But as more and more codexes get realised there are more ways to grant Obsec auras or to turn off Obsec. And this isnt helped by the huge list of what is core for SM.
Stuff like Skarboyz, Ardboyz should be units that are troops. Ive always hated that we have to pay CP for things that should just be pts and that is starting to come back in the new Codexes. Grots need something to make them feel worth the 5pts they are, give them a rule where they can pinch and objective and move it, weve seen this in Sons of Behemat with the Kraken Eater Mega-gargant, if anyone would be looting stuff its us Orks. GW just needs to be more creative with our rules, stuff that resembles Orky behaviour and lore.
Beardedragon wrote: The last thing that honestly bothers me, that i forgot to write and i think its actually my biggest annoyance, is the objective secure thing.
Looking through eldar and many other factions troop list, they have like 5 different types of units that gets objective secure, where as we only have 2 units, the Grots and Boyz.
And thats what makes no sense to begin with, as Burna Boyz, Stormboyz and Tank bustas arent even nobz but regular boyz with different weapons. I get they aint troops but placed in elite or fast attack, but everything related to boyz at the very least, should have objective secure.
The fact i can charge up my Nobz and beat up all but a single plague marine or custodian guard or what ever and STILL lose the objective, isnt balanced at all. Nobz and what ever type of boy you use can be as much part of an ork army as boyz and grots can be.
All Ork infantry should have objective secure. Maybe not Mega Nobz but the rest should.
Its for this reason i want to try and make a death guard list at the side (well that and the Buggy spam and vehicle spam to try something different)
Uhhhhhhh, you know you can get objective secured on all infantry by taking Deffskullz as your klan right? Including Meganobz, and all the other elites you've mentioned. Half of your complaint just smacks of you not knowing the game and the Ork army in general. Again, you haven't played previous editions in the game, where back in 5th ed. literally only troops could score objectives. So objective secured right now is a nice compromise without invalidating entire unit choices because they're not troops and therefore have no value other than body-blocking or killing enemy units.
Your ignorance is further seen from how you include Eldar....ELDAR of all as one of the people you're complaining about for their troops list is...laughable to say the least. Eldar have some of the most overpriced troops in the game and they do diddly squat. They have Rangers, Dire Avengers, and Guardians (Storm and Regular, but they're basically the same outside of a weapon swap). So functionally 1 more than us. And boyz are a LOT better than all 3. I do want Nobz to become a troops option personally, but you have to be a bit more cognisant of your bias and overall lack of knowledge. Most armies don't have more viable troops than one or two choices. The only exception to the rule IMO are Space Marines (surprise, surprise!) and that's because GW is really pushing the new Primaris range more than anything else.
Not all of us play Deathskulls though Grimskul, and we shouldnt be forced to, so dont go too hard on him. You shouldnt have a go at him for his opinions on what he has experienced. Our answers to are problems shouldnt be "play Goffs / play Deathskulls". There is nothing wrong with wanting all playstyles to be viable, the same with the Clans. Me personally, im not playing Orks until we have a new codex for 9e, for all I know kustom jobs will go poof when the PA becomes invalid with the new Dex, Da Biggest Boss too.
No, but his claim that all Ork infantry as a whole should get Obsec without it being tied to a Klan trait "just because" is unjustified when that isn't available to any army barring Custodes, who honestly need it given their low model count and unit choices. We're also in the tactics section, not proposed rules, so we're looking at stuff from a competitive lens. So ignoring a klan that is basically a direct answer to his complaint is a bit contradictory to the point of this thread. I want all the Klanz to be as viable as the other ones, but given there aren't any rules that force you to paint your army to match the klan, I don't see how playing a klan that best reflects what you want in an army is a bad thing at all.
Overall, it seems like he needs to spend more time looking through the rules and playing games before he makes such widespread statements. It's fine to rant, but only if the stuff you're ranting about makes sense.
Beardedragon wrote: The last thing that honestly bothers me, that i forgot to write and i think its actually my biggest annoyance, is the objective secure thing.
Looking through eldar and many other factions troop list, they have like 5 different types of units that gets objective secure, where as we only have 2 units, the Grots and Boyz.
And thats what makes no sense to begin with, as Burna Boyz, Stormboyz and Tank bustas arent even nobz but regular boyz with different weapons. I get they aint troops but placed in elite or fast attack, but everything related to boyz at the very least, should have objective secure.
The fact i can charge up my Nobz and beat up all but a single plague marine or custodian guard or what ever and STILL lose the objective, isnt balanced at all. Nobz and what ever type of boy you use can be as much part of an ork army as boyz and grots can be.
All Ork infantry should have objective secure. Maybe not Mega Nobz but the rest should.
Its for this reason i want to try and make a death skulls list at the side (well that and the Buggy spam and vehicle spam to try something different)
Uhhhhhhh, you know you can get objective secured on all infantry by taking Deffskullz as your klan right? Including Meganobz, and all the other elites you've mentioned. Half of your complaint just smacks of you not knowing the game and the Ork army in general. Again, you haven't played previous editions in the game, where back in 5th ed. literally only troops could score objectives. So objective secured right now is a nice compromise without invalidating entire unit choices because they're not troops and therefore have no value other than body-blocking or killing enemy units.
Your ignorance is further seen from how you include Eldar....ELDAR of all as one of the people you're complaining about for their troops list is...laughable to say the least. Eldar have some of the most overpriced troops in the game and they do diddly squat. They have Rangers, Dire Avengers, and Guardians (Storm and Regular, but they're basically the same outside of a weapon swap). So functionally 1 more than us. And boyz are a LOT better than all 3. I do want Nobz to become a troops option personally, but you have to be a bit more cognisant of your bias and overall lack of knowledge. Most armies don't have more viable troops than one or two choices. The only exception to the rule IMO are Space Marines (surprise, surprise!) and that's because GW is really pushing the new Primaris range more than anything else.
i am aware, in fact that was my entire point, thats why i want to get units to prepare for a Deathskulls group instead of Goff.
But i dont have 2000 points if i dont bring Ghazzy so right now (well i do but it would be a mess of an army) only Goff makes sense for me. I said i wanted to make a death guard list by accident, i meant deathskulls. thats basically half the reason i wanna do them. The other half is the reroll to 1 wound hit and damage.
Beardedragon wrote: The last thing that honestly bothers me, that i forgot to write and i think its actually my biggest annoyance, is the objective secure thing.
Looking through eldar and many other factions troop list, they have like 5 different types of units that gets objective secure, where as we only have 2 units, the Grots and Boyz.
And thats what makes no sense to begin with, as Burna Boyz, Stormboyz and Tank bustas arent even nobz but regular boyz with different weapons. I get they aint troops but placed in elite or fast attack, but everything related to boyz at the very least, should have objective secure.
The fact i can charge up my Nobz and beat up all but a single plague marine or custodian guard or what ever and STILL lose the objective, isnt balanced at all. Nobz and what ever type of boy you use can be as much part of an ork army as boyz and grots can be.
All Ork infantry should have objective secure. Maybe not Mega Nobz but the rest should.
Its for this reason i want to try and make a death guard list at the side (well that and the Buggy spam and vehicle spam to try something different)
Uhhhhhhh, you know you can get objective secured on all infantry by taking Deffskullz as your klan right? Including Meganobz, and all the other elites you've mentioned. Half of your complaint just smacks of you not knowing the game and the Ork army in general. Again, you haven't played previous editions in the game, where back in 5th ed. literally only troops could score objectives. So objective secured right now is a nice compromise without invalidating entire unit choices because they're not troops and therefore have no value other than body-blocking or killing enemy units.
Your ignorance is further seen from how you include Eldar....ELDAR of all as one of the people you're complaining about for their troops list is...laughable to say the least. Eldar have some of the most overpriced troops in the game and they do diddly squat. They have Rangers, Dire Avengers, and Guardians (Storm and Regular, but they're basically the same outside of a weapon swap). So functionally 1 more than us. And boyz are a LOT better than all 3. I do want Nobz to become a troops option personally, but you have to be a bit more cognisant of your bias and overall lack of knowledge. Most armies don't have more viable troops than one or two choices. The only exception to the rule IMO are Space Marines (surprise, surprise!) and that's because GW is really pushing the new Primaris range more than anything else.
Man i didnt complain about Eldar. I pointed out Eldar because they had a lot of troop choices that gets objective secure where Orks only have 2 units, Grots and Boyz.
I could have pointed out ANY given army i just happen to pick Eldar. I could have gone with Tyranids as well. It wasnt an "oh no how OP" point, ive never even played Eldar in my life. how would i know if they are good or bad. Its a simply to point out how few units we have compared to many others, when it comes to receiving the objective secure ability. nothing more nothing less. It was just to provide context because they had many more choices for objective secure than we did, but, I could have easily said Death guard as well or something else.
And a rant that makes sense to me doesnt have to make sense to you. No one made you warboss to tell me what i can and cant rant about so you can just show yourself out. If i feel like the Orks as whole have too few units that can have Objective secure and you dont, thats not my problem. i will have this opinion.
I think its silly that we need a klan to have burna boyz, tank bustas, stormboyz and Nobz objective secure, i believe they should have this from the get go, because most our "elite infantry" is only as strong as our enemies regular troopers. You have a different opinion? Go for it, but no need to be a jerk like you just were.
Beardedragon wrote: The last thing that honestly bothers me, that i forgot to write and i think its actually my biggest annoyance, is the objective secure thing.
Looking through eldar and many other factions troop list, they have like 5 different types of units that gets objective secure, where as we only have 2 units, the Grots and Boyz.
And thats what makes no sense to begin with, as Burna Boyz, Stormboyz and Tank bustas arent even nobz but regular boyz with different weapons. I get they aint troops but placed in elite or fast attack, but everything related to boyz at the very least, should have objective secure.
The fact i can charge up my Nobz and beat up all but a single plague marine or custodian guard or what ever and STILL lose the objective, isnt balanced at all. Nobz and what ever type of boy you use can be as much part of an ork army as boyz and grots can be.
All Ork infantry should have objective secure. Maybe not Mega Nobz but the rest should.
Its for this reason i want to try and make a death skulls list at the side (well that and the Buggy spam and vehicle spam to try something different)
Uhhhhhhh, you know you can get objective secured on all infantry by taking Deffskullz as your klan right? Including Meganobz, and all the other elites you've mentioned. Half of your complaint just smacks of you not knowing the game and the Ork army in general. Again, you haven't played previous editions in the game, where back in 5th ed. literally only troops could score objectives. So objective secured right now is a nice compromise without invalidating entire unit choices because they're not troops and therefore have no value other than body-blocking or killing enemy units.
Your ignorance is further seen from how you include Eldar....ELDAR of all as one of the people you're complaining about for their troops list is...laughable to say the least. Eldar have some of the most overpriced troops in the game and they do diddly squat. They have Rangers, Dire Avengers, and Guardians (Storm and Regular, but they're basically the same outside of a weapon swap). So functionally 1 more than us. And boyz are a LOT better than all 3. I do want Nobz to become a troops option personally, but you have to be a bit more cognisant of your bias and overall lack of knowledge. Most armies don't have more viable troops than one or two choices. The only exception to the rule IMO are Space Marines (surprise, surprise!) and that's because GW is really pushing the new Primaris range more than anything else.
i am aware, in fact that was my entire point, thats why i want to get units to prepare for a Deathskulls group instead of Goff.
But i dont have 2000 points if i dont bring Ghazzy so right now only Goff makes sense for me. I said i wanted to make a death guard list by accident, i meant deathskulls. thats basically half the reason i wanna do them. The other half is the reroll to 1 wound hit and damage.
Beardedragon wrote: The last thing that honestly bothers me, that i forgot to write and i think its actually my biggest annoyance, is the objective secure thing.
Looking through eldar and many other factions troop list, they have like 5 different types of units that gets objective secure, where as we only have 2 units, the Grots and Boyz.
And thats what makes no sense to begin with, as Burna Boyz, Stormboyz and Tank bustas arent even nobz but regular boyz with different weapons. I get they aint troops but placed in elite or fast attack, but everything related to boyz at the very least, should have objective secure.
The fact i can charge up my Nobz and beat up all but a single plague marine or custodian guard or what ever and STILL lose the objective, isnt balanced at all. Nobz and what ever type of boy you use can be as much part of an ork army as boyz and grots can be.
All Ork infantry should have objective secure. Maybe not Mega Nobz but the rest should.
Its for this reason i want to try and make a death guard list at the side (well that and the Buggy spam and vehicle spam to try something different)
Uhhhhhhh, you know you can get objective secured on all infantry by taking Deffskullz as your klan right? Including Meganobz, and all the other elites you've mentioned. Half of your complaint just smacks of you not knowing the game and the Ork army in general. Again, you haven't played previous editions in the game, where back in 5th ed. literally only troops could score objectives. So objective secured right now is a nice compromise without invalidating entire unit choices because they're not troops and therefore have no value other than body-blocking or killing enemy units.
Your ignorance is further seen from how you include Eldar....ELDAR of all as one of the people you're complaining about for their troops list is...laughable to say the least. Eldar have some of the most overpriced troops in the game and they do diddly squat. They have Rangers, Dire Avengers, and Guardians (Storm and Regular, but they're basically the same outside of a weapon swap). So functionally 1 more than us. And boyz are a LOT better than all 3. I do want Nobz to become a troops option personally, but you have to be a bit more cognisant of your bias and overall lack of knowledge. Most armies don't have more viable troops than one or two choices. The only exception to the rule IMO are Space Marines (surprise, surprise!) and that's because GW is really pushing the new Primaris range more than anything else.
Man i didnt complain about Eldar. I pointed out Eldar because they had a lot of troop choices that gets objective secure where Orks only have 2 units, Grots and Boyz.
I could have pointed out ANY given army i just happen to pick Eldar. It wasnt an "oh no how OP" point, ive never even played Eldar in my life. how would i know if they are good or bad. Its a simple damn point to point out how few units we have compared to others, when it comes to receiving the objective secure ability. nothing more nothing less.
But you choosing Eldar purely on the "number" of troops available reflects the lack of thought put into your complaint. Number of options or variety for troops doesn't mean anything if they're not viable for a style of list in some way. Case in point, you see 4 (really 3) options for Eldar, but realistically that's usually down to 2 because guardians don't fill a role that Eldar need, so they take min squads of rangers or dire avengers and that's it, or a spearhead/outrider detachment to avoid the troop tax altogether.
Similarly, Imperial Guard players pretty much only ever use scion squads and regular infantry squads because conscripts are almost pointless in comparison to the other two. Meaning they're down to 2 choices as well.
Same for Tau, no one bothers taking kroot because they fail as a counter-charge unit and they have no synergy with the Tau army. People usually take min squads of strike teams or skip to spearhead detachment to avoid the tax.
Dark Eldar are in such a weird spot since their whole army paradigm was based on the old detachment system, meaning that most of the time, if troops are taken at all, it's just Wracks with the Prophets of the Flesh to have some staying power for homefield objective grabbers. So again, meaningfully you functionally have 1 or 2 effective troops choices depending if focus on Kabals or Covens.
Necrons only have two troops choices.
Harlequins are one of the top armies right now and literally only have a single troops choice but they're viable because of how versatile that troops choice is.
Sisters of Battle have only one troops choice.
I could go on, and I know there are some exceptions to the rule (i.e. Space Marines, CSM, Daemons but that's a whole different can of worms) but by and large 2 troops choices is more or less the basic standard when it comes to it actually being taken in most armies.
Do I want more variety? Sure. Like I said, Nobz should be troops in our next codex iteration. But all I'm hearing is whinging from someone who hasn't played the army or game enough to understand a lot of the basics of the game while wanting sweeping changes simply because some factions have more Obsec options than us while discounting we have a klan trait that gives us a way to bypass that issue.
What im seeing from you is, that you disregard the fact that many other factions have more than 2 options simply because those other units are sub optimal, because GW screwed up their balancing. They werent designed to be bad, they just became bad. They still have the choices. So Eldar still has more, Death guard still have more, Tyranids also, many factions still have more. Im not asking for competitive games only im pointing out for regular friendly games too.
Other factions in general have many options, where some choices are worse than others. I could say the same thing about grots holding my backline objectives yet here i am doing it regardless.
Just because their choices are bad doesnt mean they dont have choices. The Grots sucks too so should that mean orks only have 1 choice? no.
And if anything, lorewise if anyone should have more Obsec units it should be the orks due to their scavanging nature. We dont have utility from our troops choices that can be kitted to all scenarios, thats why it made sense for it to be the same boyz, different weapons and sheets (burnaboyz, tank bustas etc. are, after all just regular boyz with different weapons) where as space marines and plague marines just kit their units with different weapons to achieve the effect we use other units for.
Yes Nobz should have ObSec, and i too hope they become a troop choice of a sort in the next codex, but i still feel like, Burnaboyz, tankbustas and Kommandos should as well.
But not Stormboyz (i did change my mind on those) given they can fly. And lootas also wouldnt make sense. I actually dont even mind if Kommandos dont get ObSec either due to teleporting in, but Burnaboyz (even though they suck they might not in next iteration) Tank Bustas and Nobz should have it.
Id like to make a last edit here after ive gathered my thoughts: What bothers me the most actually is that Nobz dont have it. Which i know you agree to as well. I just find it weird lore wise and otherwise that Burnaboyz (terrible or not) and Tankbustas (maybe kommandos? not sure) dont have it, given they are just boyz with a different weapon. I cant help but thinking in a different universe, there is an Ork blueprint out there, like Space marines, where the Boyz are just kitted with flamers or rokkits but is essentially just core infantry with ObSec with one data sheet, with many options.
But im mostly bothered by Nobz not having it honestly.
On the plus side it does feel like time is rushing by at the moment. Maybe we'll luck out and be up for a new codex in the early to mid year 2021. As many people have said, there is indeed a lot that can be done for and with orks, but it's also interesting to see what the various factions are getting along the way.
I still find it curious that harlies seem to be top tier at the moment.
cody.d. wrote: On the plus side it does feel like time is rushing by at the moment. Maybe we'll luck out and be up for a new codex in the early to mid year 2021. As many people have said, there is indeed a lot that can be done for and with orks, but it's also interesting to see what the various factions are getting along the way.
I still find it curious that harlies seem to be top tier at the moment.
My guess would be march/April for our Codex. I think after dark angels and dark eldar itll be admech/knights. What ever they do to dark eldar will give a good indication as to what we can expect for Orks unless they give us the shaft like usual
cody.d. wrote: On the plus side it does feel like time is rushing by at the moment. Maybe we'll luck out and be up for a new codex in the early to mid year 2021. As many people have said, there is indeed a lot that can be done for and with orks, but it's also interesting to see what the various factions are getting along the way.
I still find it curious that harlies seem to be top tier at the moment.
My guess would be march/April for our Codex. I think after dark angels and dark eldar itll be admech/knights. What ever they do to dark eldar will give a good indication as to what we can expect for Orks unless they give us the shaft like usual
We know there's something in the wings regarding ork models. Deathguard, DE have been announced (though we haven't had the full reveal on what the DE model is yet) so that does lead credence to your guess of March/April. Possible we'll see Sisters in a similar time period as well?
But yeah, seeing how a proper Xenos factions gets the 9th treatment will be a big tell. At least our forgeworld offerings were good to great so perhaps that's a taste of things to come?
Evil sunz boyz, if you take a waagh banner nob, are also completely valid as a troop choice. 30*3 (one in deep strike on certain maps) with double saw nob + waaagh banner makes for a decent army base. Less snipers are being taken these days, and many boyz will surround the waagh banner to prevent it form being assaulted.
Unlike goff boyz, evil sunz boyz can make a lucky t1 charge or force the opponent to stay in hos zone (a lot better than goff boyz).
I still think goff boyz are better overall (DS probably too), but evil sunz is still valid for "green tidish" ork armies IMHO.
I wanted to know about your opinion on the Snazzwagon with its kustom job for an inherently Chaff clearer unit?
In general when i look at the kustom job, it looks like utter garbage, but i thought about whether it wouldnt be somewhat decent at clearing T3 and T4 infantry off the bord, along side its 2D6 flame grenade.
If we were to take, lets say Pox walkers with T3 (or buffed to T4) and theres 20 of those, thats 140 points isnt it? if one Poxwalker is 7 points. And given the aura of that.. dude in the death guard army that negates that i charged and thus cant hit first, i feel like i will disregard boyz this time (i guess, unless shoota boyz are efficient?).
For your snazzwagon you pay 90 + 1 CP to get 15 S4 -1AP 1dmg shots + 2D6 grenades. That in and out of itself seem like a good deal. So what makes it bad at that? because we have better options or because it hits on 5s?
Personally i just bought a kustom boosta blasta for the utility, flamethrowers for chaff clearing, and the rivet gun for tougher enemies, but i wonder if the snazzwagon wouldnt have been a better choice for full on chaff clearing.
Both are 90 points so not really a lot.
Ive wished for both the dragsta and scrapjet for christmas so i purposefully didnt buy those.
With kustom job, the snazzwagon kills an average of 6 pox walkers - from 6" away.
Next turn the pox walkers charge the buggy and you can't throw your grenades any more because they are blast, which means you are stuck trying to get out of the blob by killing 4 per turn. It the DG player throws any buffs their way, they might even destroy the buggy in combat.
The KBB kills ~7 pox walkers at 6", and charge them for mortal wounds or and continues to kill 6 per turn even in combat. If you want to stay safe, you use a CP for burnin' highway to kill ~7 from 10" and then fire overwatch at them to get them down to 5-6 before they even touch you. Pox walkers with less than 10 models don't hit gak. The rivet gun is an all-rounder weapon, so if you need pox-walkers gone, shoot it at them as well.
So, the snazzwagon is strictly inferior at killing chaff than the generalist KBB, which is the main reason why it's rated to badly. Personally, I just proxy my snazzwagon as KBB, because the armament looks close enough
I wanted to know about your opinion on the Snazzwagon with its kustom job for an inherently Chaff clearer unit?
In general when i look at the kustom job, it looks like utter garbage, but i thought about whether it wouldnt be somewhat decent at clearing T3 and T4 infantry off the bord, along side its 2D6 flame grenade.
If we were to take, lets say Pox walkers with T3 (or buffed to T4) and theres 20 of those, thats 140 points isnt it? if one Poxwalker is 7 points. And given the aura of that.. dude in the death guard army that negates that i charged and thus cant hit first, i feel like i will disregard boyz this time (i guess, unless shoota boyz are efficient?).
For your snazzwagon you pay 90 + 1 CP to get 15 S4 -1AP 1dmg shots + 2D6 grenades. That in and out of itself seem like a good deal. So what makes it bad at that? because we have better options or because it hits on 5s?
Personally i just bought a kustom boosta blasta for the utility, flamethrowers for chaff clearing, and the rivet gun for tougher enemies, but i wonder if the snazzwagon wouldnt have been a better choice for full on chaff clearing.
Both are 90 points so not really a lot.
Ive wished for both the dragsta and scrapjet for christmas so i purposefully didnt buy those.
The kustom job for the Snazzwagon is more of a side grade than an upgrade. You go from 9 shots 24" range str 5 ap2 to 15 shots 30" range str 4 ap 1. That kind of dramatically shifts what the Snazzwagon wants to do. The former profile is more suited to wounding/killing power armour, the later for killing guardsmen equivalents. Then you get into the whole problem with the BDSW, it doesnt know what it wants to be. It has a -1 to hit against shooting but blows up on a 4+. It has guns that are 24/30-36" but then grenades that 6" and then no melee profile like the SJD, RTSB and MTSJ. And 90pts I think is pretty overcosted, it should be 70/75pts (especially if a ATV is 85pts....).
Me personally if I were to take Snazzwagons, id save the CP on the Kustomjob and run them stock. AP1 starts to get effected by things that ignore AP1, where as ignoring AP2 is pretty rare with only Sisters (Imaginifier and Subfaction trait) and Tyranids (on a brick of Warriors) getting it. Tbhid ignore the burna bottles and grot blasta on the model as they probably wont amount to much anyway, kind of like the KBB with its stikkbomb and grot blasta and then the RTSB's stikksquig and shotgun.
But I would always take the KBB over a BDSW if I had the choice too. Sure if you know your going against a lot of T3 units take the kustom job, but in the wider meta the BDSW doesnt really fit in.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
addnid wrote: Evil sunz boyz, if you take a waagh banner nob, are also completely valid as a troop choice. 30*3 (one in deep strike on certain maps) with double saw nob + waaagh banner makes for a decent army base. Less snipers are being taken these days, and many boyz will surround the waagh banner to prevent it form being assaulted.
Unlike goff boyz, evil sunz boyz can make a lucky t1 charge or force the opponent to stay in hos zone (a lot better than goff boyz).
I still think goff boyz are better overall (DS probably too), but evil sunz is still valid for "green tidish" ork armies IMHO.
I still love my Evil Sunz Boyz. They might not be as killy as Goff Skarboyz with Ghaz or as durable as Deathskulls (still doesnt save much) but they have mobility. Moving 6+D6+1" vs your standard 5+D6" can mean the difference of getting that objective/having more bodies on the point, achieving a secondary or making a crucial charge especially with that +1. And at the end of the day a Goff Boss Nob in a Skarboyz squad is pretty much the same as a Evil Sunz Boss Nob, and the mobs are the same durability. One hits harder the other gets places quicker and in 9e movement is pretty key, one of the more important phases of the game.
So yeah I agree with you Addnid. Its just Ghaz does more for Goffs than other Clans.
Yeah, KBB is much better than Snazzwagon. Exactly because what Jidmah said. Plus 36” rivet kannon is simply better then mek speshul. More powerfull and longer range than standard 24” bolter range
A friend recently purchased a second unit of Mega Nobz for me as a gift.
Do you think that two Bonebreakas with Mega Nobz would be a good hard core to take and hold central objectives?
One Bonebreaka will be a Forktress, the other will have a KFF Mega Mek in it. I intend to run everything as Deathskulls, as that seems the best Kultur for mechanized Ork lists by far.
The Bonebreaka is nice if you have a Fall back and Charge plan. I do it with Blood Axes for casual games, but more serious maybe a Evil Sunz detachment with the WL trait.
That said I think that the big vehicles aren´t that useful for us as saturating the field with cheap T4 bodies is better ObSec and board control. 1 is ok to deliver some melee specialists, but more feels iffy to me. (Infernal Questing Chaos Knight in an exception)
Bonde wrote: A friend recently purchased a second unit of Mega Nobz for me as a gift.
Do you think that two Bonebreakas with Mega Nobz would be a good hard core to take and hold central objectives?
One Bonebreaka will be a Forktress, the other will have a KFF Mega Mek in it. I intend to run everything as Deathskulls, as that seems the best Kultur for mechanized Ork lists by far.
Depending how competitive your games are, this might work fine. Battlewagon w/ Ard case or the Bonebreaker are awesome bodies for their points.
You might find, though, they don't really last long enough to hold the objective in certain matchups (meltas are awful), especially if these are your only vehicles.
Yeah, battlewagons only work IMO if you use them alongside buggies to saturate the field enough with vehicles to force your opponent to deal with multiple threats.
I love the look of the snazzwagon it is an awesome model, however, it needs a fix in that it’s gun needs to be more powerful, then it would see play as you could then take advantage of the -1 to hit, or the bumper grot strategem. As it currently stands the snazzwagon is just not threatening enough to do what it could be great at which is absorbing fire power for other buggies/vehicles. As it currently is players just ignore it if it is benefiting from the -1 or they destroy it if they are close to it
Bonde wrote: I intend to run them alongside 2x Boyz in trukks, 2x Scrapjets, Gunwagon w. boomer and a Warboss on warbike.
Yup, that sounds about right. You got a solid base right there.
@russellmoo
Agreed, it is a shame since the model itself looks so cool, but its trying to fill an anti-infantry niche that is covered quite amply by a lot of other options in the Ork codex. Frankly, its main gun should be an anti-elite infantry weapon since we don't really have much of that in our army outside of rokkits and incidental anti-tank weaponry repurposed for that role, I guess Flash Gitz count too but they need a points drop first before they get used again. Having the Mek Speshul at 12 shots at S5 AP-2 D2 would make it a lot more interesting, with the caveat of it getting +1 to hit if it's in half-range to incentivize getting close and using it's burna bottles. I guess the kustom job would make it 12 shots at S6 AP-3 D2?
Bonde wrote: I intend to run them alongside 2x Boyz in trukks, 2x Scrapjets, Gunwagon w. boomer and a Warboss on warbike.
Yup, that sounds about right. You got a solid base right there.
@russellmoo
Agreed, it is a shame since the model itself looks so cool, but its trying to fill an anti-infantry niche that is covered quite amply by a lot of other options in the Ork codex. Frankly, its main gun should be an anti-elite infantry weapon since we don't really have much of that in our army outside of rokkits and incidental anti-tank weaponry repurposed for that role, I guess Flash Gitz count too but they need a points drop first before they get used again. Having the Mek Speshul at 12 shots at S5 AP-2 D2 would make it a lot more interesting, with the caveat of it getting +1 to hit if it's in half-range to incentivize getting close and using it's burna bottles. I guess the kustom job would make it 12 shots at S6 AP-3 D2?
The problem with that is then it makes the KBB and RTSB kinda obslete (even though the RTSB already is). 12 shots Str 5 AP2 D2 is better that 6 shots Str 7 AP 2 D2 against pretty much all targets which being more durable too with the -1 to hit. I also have a sneaky suspicious Kustom Jobs will go when the Codex drops. It looks like they are trying to move away from CP unit upgrades, making them either legitimate units like Veteran Intercessors or cost points as seen with Chapter Command. Knowing our luck they will just be removed but the better thing would be to have KJs as just the new profiles of the vehicles.
If the BDSW gets a nice boost like you suggested then the KBB will need something to cerment its role too. Either the rivet kannon being better vs vehicles or the burnas becoming more deadly and being able to be used in melee as a CC profile. Or they give the BDSW a supression rule where the unit it shots at is -1 to hit.
If they remove Kustom Jobs I really hope our stratagems get revamped in some regard. So many of our strategems are just useless or highly situational. Kustom jobs is what keep certain units relevant. I'm afraid of the relevancy and flexibility of certain units without them.
Kustom jobs are also a fairly unique and praised mechanic. I somehow doubt they will get removed unless they roll in all the upgrades into the base datasheets. And that would probably be insanely powerful.
Theres no way they remove kustom jobs, its too popular a mechanic and super flavorful for orks.
Its more likely they add more kustom jobs than give us better relics. Orks arent known for specially crafted personal weapons, just bigger versions of the usual weapon (i.e. Killaklaw or extra shots shootas), not really all that special ones with unique properties. Vehicles though are supposed to be so heavily kitbashed and hobbled together that no two vehicles are the same. So yeah, i could see them adding tons of kustom jobs and copy/pasting relics.
The only way they could get rid of kustomjobs and not get a huge backlash from the ork community is to basically incorporate them into the units by default. Could take Squighydes? +1m Could take Pistons? +1m Could take Sparkly Bits? +1BS at half range (or some other restriction so its not a flat BS4 buff to all our walkers) etcetc.
And theres no way in hell GW does that. Not without making them cost ~40% more to "compensate" because orks never get a buff without a price hyke in the process.
They are? Wheres that proof? Necrons/Marines far as im aware only had character upgrades for CP, and at least the Necron one still does (unsure about marines since i could give 2 gaks about them)
Granted, the Necron one is only a Phaeron upgrade for a non-named Noble (allowing My Will be Done to be used twice and nothing else new) but its still an upgrade. Plus, relics are still CP-based and i dont see how they arent considered upgrades.
Vineheart01 wrote: They are? Wheres that proof?
Necrons/Marines far as im aware only had character upgrades for CP, and at least the Necron one still does (unsure about marines since i could give 2 gaks about them)
Granted, the Necron one is only a Phaeron upgrade for a non-named Noble (allowing My Will be Done to be used twice and nothing else new) but its still an upgrade.
Plus, relics are still CP-based and i dont see how they arent considered upgrades.
What they did for chapter command. It's also a comment I've heard from playtesters.
Honestly, it's awful burning your CP just to make your units viable. I want to use CP to do cool strats.
I'd much rather pay 10 points a buggy for korkscrew.
Agreed, i hate CP unit upgrades and i wish they'd go away and also wish Relics would go back to points as well.
I just dont believe GW is actually doing that. They had a chance...twice actually...to revamp the Cp system and they completely ignored both. The change in 9th is more of a consistency thing than a revamp.
They could do something stupid like one kustom job per mek. Suddenly, mini-meks everywhere.
What I like about the kustom job mechanic is that it actually incentives bringing lots of different models, making ork armies look much more diverse. Nine SJD or scrapjets just aren't that cool.
Definitely Jidmah, though to be fair, part of that has to do with the fact that a lot of the kustom jobs are balanced around only being able to use it on a unit of 3, I could see them tweaking it so that you don't just spam them the way you mention, especially if they make the weaker buggies like the Squigbuggy and the Snazzwagon more interesting/powerful.
I'm just hoping they either make 'ard boyz a points option or separate troops datasheet rather than overpriced 2CP strat that arguably does nothing.
Jidmah wrote: They could do something stupid like one kustom job per mek. Suddenly, mini-meks everywhere.
What I like about the kustom job mechanic is that it actually incentives bringing lots of different models, making ork armies look much more diverse. Nine SJD or scrapjets just aren't that cool.
I do like this as well. It's just it shouldn't cost CP. Also, please give Orks wayyyy more cool stratagems. The perception Orks had good strats was because of the spamming of UGT, More Dakka, and Shoot twice (via Dread Waaagh and Bad moons) -- Honestly, the fact I can go down to 5 CP or so in my mech lists and not give a crap is not a good sign.
Give us a revamp of Ork strats, make some stuff cheaper (More Dakka should be 1 CP, not 2).
What you'd probably see, though, with your suggestion: maybe a Big Mek gives 2, Regular Mek 1, and Da Kleverest Boss 3 KJ upgrades.
I could see that mechanic being fine, if that's the route they go, as I think ~3 or 4 KJ is mostly what you do anyway.
But I'd prefer it being a datasheet option, once per army or detachment.
That Buzzgob doesnt buff Stompas, kustom stompas or Kill tanks, despite the fact he has a package deal on Forge World Called: Buzzgobs Kill Mob with these exact units in it!. I mean what is that all about!
On a different more serious yet odd note, have anyone tried, either through theorycrafting or in reality to replace all the 90 Slugga/Choppa boyz in a Goff group, with 90 Shoota Boyz and still giving them Skar Boyz upgrade? The good would be you actually get to hit a little bit and potentially softening the enemy up before charging in, although you will most likely hit on 6s due to your charge, and you only lose 1 attack per model. The downside is, that 1 attack could add up which is probably why people go slugga/choppa variant as Goff in the first place.
I was just playing around with the idea if it would be that bad if you lost 1 attack per model, but gained more versatility in the form of shootas.
Also if you bring a Killkannon on a battlewagon you reduce your infantry capacity from 20 to 12, but the same text is not written on the bonebreaker datasheet which by standard can only carry 12 people. Does that mean a killkannon on a bonebreaker doesnt reduce your carry capacity at all?
I think the main reason why people go for slugga+choppa combo more, especially for Skarboyz, is because you want to make the most of the S5 upgrade you pay for the unit. Giving up that extra attack takes away the investment you paid to make them more deadly in melee, and usually the few extra shots you get from shootas don't do enough in comparison. Shootas are also contradict the purpose of Skarboyz getting stuck in, because if you get lucky enough to kill models with your shoota fire, it usually makes your charge longer and harder to make, which only makes their primary purpose harder to achieve.
I think there are two significant issues that are covering for each other when it comes to Orks and CP.
1) We don't have many good active stratagems. IMO we have 6 good all-around strategems. Get Stuck In, Orks is Never Beaten, More Dakka, Tellyporta, UGT. For good situational stratagems we have Ramming Speed, Hit Em Harder, and Skarboyz. I'd put the rest in the bad category because they either don't do enough or it is too specific to be generally useful.
.2) We have really good passive strategems. Kustom jobs, Warphead, and the Biggest Boss are auto-includes in every list almost. This combined with the most effective list being massed boyz makes for less interaction and choice than many other factions have. I have limited experience as I just started playing but I wanted to see what other people thought.
Is there a particular situation where you want shoota boyz over sluggas? I got a couple shoota mobs just because they look cool but even with a full volley of 30 boyz, you're getting what, maybe 2 dead marines? I'm kind of struggling to see a point to them, which is weird since back in 5th all I remember people running was shoota boyz. That said mass S4 shooting was muh scarier back then than it is now, so I guess it makes sense.
A mob of 20/10 as slugga/shoota seems even more situational, because yeah while you're probably not getting all 30 boyz into every combat, what good are those extra 10 S4 shots really giving you? The only thing I can think of is if hordes become the big thing and you need ways to weaken gaunt or enemy boyz mobs, but even then you're risking shooting yourself out of charge range.
ideally, in a 30man squad, at least 15 should be Shootas.
Reason: Adv+Shoot so theyre doing SOMETHING as they move up the board, 18" range after 5+D6 movement usually means they still shoot. In addition, you cannot realistically expect more than 15 boyz to get to swing in melee anyway unless you get REALLY lucky on the charging. By the time youre close enough to reliably wrap, theres no way that squad is full strength anyway.
You could stretch that to 20/10 as well, since it is possible to swing with more than 15 models at once just unlikely. Kill the shootas first because after that initial turn they arent as useful since they WILL be charging something at that point, possibly w/o needing advance so they can pistol fire too.
Most people just do solid choppa/shoota squads because most armies dont even allow that kind of mixing, and the few that do theres no reason to (Warriors can do it too, but there is no reason to mix reapers/flayers). Plus, its easier to keep track of whats left and where each unit is.
Vineheart01 wrote: Theres no way they remove kustom jobs, its too popular a mechanic and super flavorful for orks.
Its more likely they add more kustom jobs than give us better relics. Orks arent known for specially crafted personal weapons, just bigger versions of the usual weapon (i.e. Killaklaw or extra shots shootas), not really all that special ones with unique properties.
Vehicles though are supposed to be so heavily kitbashed and hobbled together that no two vehicles are the same. So yeah, i could see them adding tons of kustom jobs and copy/pasting relics.
The only way they could get rid of kustomjobs and not get a huge backlash from the ork community is to basically incorporate them into the units by default.
Could take Squighydes? +1m
Could take Pistons? +1m
Could take Sparkly Bits? +1BS at half range (or some other restriction so its not a flat BS4 buff to all our walkers)
etcetc.
And theres no way in hell GW does that. Not without making them cost ~40% more to "compensate" because orks never get a buff without a price hyke in the process.
Would it cost pts or pl? It seems to go against GWs new pattern of making things cost pts for match play that used to be stratagems and CP. Then how much would be reasonable to pay for these upgrades? Would a Korkscrew be 20ppm? We would run out of pts quick in an army. Just because things are popular doesnt mean they cant take it away or turn them on their head. Units that were popular previous editions have been taken down a peg (or two) to incite us to buy other things. The Wraithknight is one of the key victims of this and to some extent Aggressors now (they are good in some armies like Sallies and Ultras but arent neccessary).Theyve taken away Ork options before that had models or were popular (looted wagon was crazy popular), and from the trend that has been seen with SM, BA, SW, its that whatever they had from PA has largely disappeared like stratagems and relics.
Atleast half of the KJs should just be standard to the model. Grog Klaw (even though thats pretty weak compared to everything that is D3+3 like say a redemptor fist), Slug Gubbin, Blitza Gatler, Pincha, Zagzap, Da Boomber, Squig Hyde Tyres (say on trukks or warbikes especially due to them being one of the slowest bikes in the game when others just auto advance 6-8"), Sizzly Rivets. None of these makes the model OP. Would you ever take a Gunwagon without Da Boomer? A Stompa without da Blitza Gatler? No Grog Klaw/Slug Gubbin on a Gorka? A Redemptor has the same level of firepower that a Gorka has, being kinda more durable with Duty Eternal and access to Obscuring, punches a lil bit harder vs multiwould models and gets better synergies whilst being a third of the cost.These should just be standard things. Really a Morka should be BS4 as with all Meks with their weapons, a Wazboom has it for its Smashagun, a Morka should for its big gun ATLEAST. Just look at the DG daemon engines getting +1 WS & BS across the board. Thats big. I expect the same for Orks (not BS but KJs starting to be baked into profiles and going as a pre-game mechanic).
Id actually like to see Orks get more access to BS4 things just with set things that have to be met like being within half range. BS5 was fine in an age when we had no modifers in past editions. Yeah its a capped at a -1 but that still gimps half of our shooting unless its BS4. KJs should be options but most of the time they are just autotakes with an army that doesnt need CP much unlike its footslogging counterparts. As they are right now its not a huge hinderence to have them in your army at the cost of CP.
Unfortunately they already have a system to answer that first part.
Necron's Cryptek Arkanas are points based "relics" that only the Crypteks can use.
They are also increasing the model's PL if taken, which hard-locks them to 15-40pts because of the PL ratio.
Most of them are NOT worth that many points because theyre once per game though so it might work far better for orks with permanent mods.
Still will fall into the issue like you said that some are not equal in worth. Which is a problem even with the CP based one (arguably worse imo)
tulun wrote: The main issue is they are trying to get rid of CP upgrades for units.
Which I 100% agree with as a general concept and I think we can all agree there was some awful game breaking CP upgrades in other armies...
If they think it'll be too powerful to have 3 units of Mega Trakks with Korkscrew, just limit the upgrades to once per detachment or once per army.
I agree. When wouldnt you take Korkscrew or Wirlygig? They might aswell be permanent options that is reflected in the cost of the model or as your said restricted or as Jid said, paired to a Mek (Big Mek giving more than a Mek).
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Vineheart01 wrote: Agreed, i hate CP unit upgrades and i wish they'd go away and also wish Relics would go back to points as well.
I just dont believe GW is actually doing that. They had a chance...twice actually...to revamp the Cp system and they completely ignored both. The change in 9th is more of a consistency thing than a revamp.
They are doing it to some degree. Space Marines saw it with Chapter Command and Veteran Intercessors becoming a unit instead of a CP upgrade. Necrons have it with their Arcana for their Crypteks but oddly the Phaeron is a CP upgrade when youd think theyd take a leaf from the SM book and make it a PL/PTS cost. Blood Angels saw it for making a Captain/Lieutanent Death Company, it used to be a CP upgrade now its pts (for a Captain its 20pts and I believe 15pts for the other). Space Wolves havent had anything like this as far as I am aware but then again they just use the Chapter Command and most of the Marine stuff bar a few things like Vanguard Vets and Sternguard. Deathguard will be the next codex to show if this pattern carries on and im 110% sure Dark Angels will have it for making certain things Deathwing. Its a good move but could use some fine tuning, like why is a Chief Apothecary 15pts and his strat then free when he can revive 5 models way over his 15pts added cost like 5 Blade Guard Veterans.
KJs are an odd case. They are relic-lite. They may be only 1 upgrade each, but they effect a squad, there is no limit on how many you can have like say relics, the only cap being your CP, how many KJs there is and the amount of these units that can take them in your army. I believe T'au prototype weapons might be the same as KJs but they may have a relic cap of 3 like standard. I cant remember its been a while since ive played my T'au. KJs are pretty unique amongst the other factions but they dont neccessarily make certain units punch way above their weight like say a character with a relic/warlord trait/strat-pts upgrade.
tulun wrote: Has anyone played with any Grot Mega Tanks since the update?
Just occurred to me today that a 2 or 3 KMB, 4 or 5 big shoota Grot mega tank actually isn't *too* bad combined with grot mobs.
110 or 120 points.
3+ save, ramshackle, 11 wounds, degrading profile is largely irrelevant, 6++, re-roll 1s to hit.
2-3 KMB shots, 12 or 15 big shootas, all hitting on 4s.
You could sort of use it as a bulky dragster.
The body is actually pretty decent, and it has some alright chaff / elite killing power.
The changes to the grot tank rules certainly were an improvement in regards to synergy. Their rules don't overlap with grotmobs any more so you can stack them to make an overall decent unit. But I do think that if you want to take KMB then a proper Deffskuls unit may get more milage especially the Dragstas.
Big shootas are sadly still pretty meh even with BS4. Perhaps grotzookas could see some use? Skorchas you may as well just slap on a dread (especially when we get that range buff)
I doubt it'll outstrip a dragster, but if you have the model, I think it could actually perform alright.
I don't think 100% grotzookas or big shootas will do enough work. Orks clear chaff just fine. We struggle a bit against heavy infantry, which the KMB can help out with.
i just wouldn't go all in, as 160 points for a mega tank is a bad trade.
I doubt it'll outstrip a dragster, but if you have the model, I think it could actually perform alright.
I don't think 100% grotzookas or big shootas will do enough work. Orks clear chaff just fine. We struggle a bit against heavy infantry, which the KMB can help out with.
i just wouldn't go all in, as 160 points for a mega tank is a bad trade.
Well thankfully the design of the FW book is future proofed to an extent. If our codex comes round early and the profiles change massively those little blighters may get some more life as cheapish/accurateish carriers of special weapons. But there will always be a balance of not having the unit special rules (like taking rokkit tanks vs tankbustas) vs price and durability, with a little speed thrown in. That and having gorgeous rolling scrapheaps for models.
Vineheart01 wrote: ideally, in a 30man squad, at least 15 should be Shootas.
Reason: Adv+Shoot so theyre doing SOMETHING as they move up the board, 18" range after 5+D6 movement usually means they still shoot. In addition, you cannot realistically expect more than 15 boyz to get to swing in melee anyway unless you get REALLY lucky on the charging.
By the time youre close enough to reliably wrap, theres no way that squad is full strength anyway.
You could stretch that to 20/10 as well, since it is possible to swing with more than 15 models at once just unlikely. Kill the shootas first because after that initial turn they arent as useful since they WILL be charging something at that point, possibly w/o needing advance so they can pistol fire too.
Most people just do solid choppa/shoota squads because most armies dont even allow that kind of mixing, and the few that do theres no reason to (Warriors can do it too, but there is no reason to mix reapers/flayers). Plus, its easier to keep track of whats left and where each unit is.
I agree, 50/50 slugga & choppa/shoota is the best loadout for 30 man mobs. You'll never get more than 10-12 boyz per mob in combat anyway, and per turn those 45 shootas can actually matter a little bit. Greentides are also typically lackluster in the shooting phase, so those few extra shots aren't useless.
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Big Mek Sparknutz wrote: I think there are two significant issues that are covering for each other when it comes to Orks and CP.
1) We don't have many good active stratagems. IMO we have 6 good all-around strategems. Get Stuck In, Orks is Never Beaten, More Dakka, Tellyporta, UGT. For good situational stratagems we have Ramming Speed, Hit Em Harder, and Skarboyz. I'd put the rest in the bad category because they either don't do enough or it is too specific to be generally useful.
.2) We have really good passive strategems. Kustom jobs, Warphead, and the Biggest Boss are auto-includes in every list almost. This combined with the most effective list being massed boyz makes for less interaction and choice than many other factions have. I have limited experience as I just started playing but I wanted to see what other people thought.
I'd include Mob Up, Medi Squig, Grot Shields, Extra Stikkbombz, Loot It, Wreckers, Billowing Exaust Clauds if you play bikes, Da Kleverest Boss, Flyin' Eadbutt, Da Burnin' Highway and Patch Up. All useful, and with the exception of Mob Up, Loot It, Billowing and Grot Shields I use them more frequently than UGT and More Dakka. Dreaded Death Machine is highly situational but could be useful against primaris/gravis dudes and 3x dreads aren't uncommon in orks lists.
Jidmah wrote: I actually use dreaded death machine almost every time I use dreads.
Being the best at passive stratagems is a cool army identity to have anyways. I'm not a fan of "insert CP for damage" stratagems anyways.
Do you get much value out of Dreaded Death Machine when youve used it Jid? Ive always been left feeling underwhelmed by it. Assuming the dread is 4 klaws thats 6 attacks, 3s and 2s (3s vs gravis) then they get a 3+ and whatever feel no pain they have. So say you kill 2 Intercessors you then have 2 additional attacks which youll probs kill 1 more. That doesnt seem like good value for a CP. Granted your clan would help get more value if your Goffs or Deathskulls but it feels like a waste of a CP. Then the Deff Dread gets seal clubbed in return most likely by the remaining Intercessors (If they have a Sarge with a powerfist).
DDM is something I would like to see be standard to Deff Dreads in the future, and a sprinkling of more attacks.
Vineheart01 wrote: ideally, in a 30man squad, at least 15 should be Shootas.
Reason: Adv+Shoot so theyre doing SOMETHING as they move up the board, 18" range after 5+D6 movement usually means they still shoot. In addition, you cannot realistically expect more than 15 boyz to get to swing in melee anyway unless you get REALLY lucky on the charging.
By the time youre close enough to reliably wrap, theres no way that squad is full strength anyway.
You could stretch that to 20/10 as well, since it is possible to swing with more than 15 models at once just unlikely. Kill the shootas first because after that initial turn they arent as useful since they WILL be charging something at that point, possibly w/o needing advance so they can pistol fire too.
Most people just do solid choppa/shoota squads because most armies dont even allow that kind of mixing, and the few that do theres no reason to (Warriors can do it too, but there is no reason to mix reapers/flayers). Plus, its easier to keep track of whats left and where each unit is.
I agree, 50/50 slugga & choppa/shoota is the best loadout for 30 man mobs. You'll never get more than 10-12 boyz per mob in combat anyway, and per turn those 45 shootas can actually matter a little bit. Greentides are also typically lackluster in the shooting phase, so those few extra shots aren't useless.
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Big Mek Sparknutz wrote: I think there are two significant issues that are covering for each other when it comes to Orks and CP.
1) We don't have many good active stratagems. IMO we have 6 good all-around strategems. Get Stuck In, Orks is Never Beaten, More Dakka, Tellyporta, UGT. For good situational stratagems we have Ramming Speed, Hit Em Harder, and Skarboyz. I'd put the rest in the bad category because they either don't do enough or it is too specific to be generally useful.
.2) We have really good passive strategems. Kustom jobs, Warphead, and the Biggest Boss are auto-includes in every list almost. This combined with the most effective list being massed boyz makes for less interaction and choice than many other factions have. I have limited experience as I just started playing but I wanted to see what other people thought.
I'd include Mob Up, Medi Squig, Grot Shields, Extra Stikkbombz, Loot It, Wreckers, Billowing Exaust Clauds if you play bikes, Da Kleverest Boss, Flyin' Eadbutt, Da Burnin' Highway and Patch Up. All useful, and with the exception of Mob Up, Loot It, Billowing and Grot Shields I use them more frequently than UGT and More Dakka. Dreaded Death Machine is highly situational but could be useful against primaris/gravis dudes and 3x dreads aren't uncommon in orks lists.
Id put Mob Up and Grot Shields pretty far down on the usefulness of our strats. Mob Up got blasted when they FAQ'd it to only effect Boyz which was dumb. Its pretty situational now, not bad but not something you do every game. Grot Shields is another case of well what do you use it on now? Grots are quite expensive this edition and they arent seen in all lists. Maybe if you want to protect some MANs but there is better ways to keep them from harm available to us.
Extra Stikkbombz is another highly situation case. You cant use it after advancing which is what most boys will be doing, its 6" range which is pretty damn close which again means you either advanced or want to charge and not reduce your charge range or youve Da Jumped or Deep Struck onto the board from Tellyport. Ive mainly used it on Nobz who are kitted out solely for combat so no sluggas just so that they can clear out some chaff if they need too. But Nobz arent the best anyway.
I dont find myself using Loot It all that much too nowadays. You either run all Boyz or Buggies. Its great for Flashgitz but not much else due to it no longer effecting MANs. And even then the game is swimming in high AP shots with AP2 being so damn common which we'd usually have a KFF to fall back on.
So I recently acquired 8 plastic Mega Nobz.
It seems like there are differing opinions on how to equip them.
I am thinking about magnetizing them so that I am able to swap between dual Killsaws and Shoota + PK, but the question is, should go for kombi-skorcha, kombi-rokkits, kustom shootas, or a mix of the three?
Bonde wrote: So I recently acquired 8 plastic Mega Nobz.
It seems like there are differing opinions on how to equip them.
I am thinking about magnetizing them so that I am able to swap between dual Killsaws and Shoota + PK, but the question is, should go for kombi-skorcha, kombi-rokkits, kustom shootas, or a mix of the three?
Kombi-skorchas are way too expensive. I think a kombi-rokkit may be arguable if running deathskullz but the kustom shootas are generally the go-to ranged choice for MANz. I personally just love running them with Killsaws. S4 shooting is just so rarely able to take a wound that I don't think it's effective especially when you are often advancing and charging to get them into CC.
For the vehicle passives, I'm hoping it's either baked in cost and one unit per army can take it for free, or a pay X points for the upgrade.
Bonde wrote: So I recently acquired 8 plastic Mega Nobz.
It seems like there are differing opinions on how to equip them.
I am thinking about magnetizing them so that I am able to swap between dual Killsaws and Shoota + PK, but the question is, should go for kombi-skorcha, kombi-rokkits, kustom shootas, or a mix of the three?
As a deathskulls player, I personally go for dual saws. Other than that I might sprinkle the odd klaw/rokkit model in if I want to make use of the reroll while shooting.
Skorchas might be situationally useful if you're playing against a proper horde, but I can't see a use for shootas personally.
Bonde wrote: So I recently acquired 8 plastic Mega Nobz.
It seems like there are differing opinions on how to equip them.
I am thinking about magnetizing them so that I am able to swap between dual Killsaws and Shoota + PK, but the question is, should go for kombi-skorcha, kombi-rokkits, kustom shootas, or a mix of the three?
Kombi-skorchas are way too expensive. I think a kombi-rokkit may be arguable if running deathskullz but the kustom shootas are generally the go-to ranged choice for MANz. I personally just love running them with Killsaws. S4 shooting is just so rarely able to take a wound that I don't think it's effective especially when you are often advancing and charging to get them into CC.
I agree that Skorchas are expensive. They only do proper damage against the right targets (GEQ), and then you are in a situation where you might not be able to make the charge if you roast your charge target first.
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Afrodactyl wrote: For the vehicle passives, I'm hoping it's either baked in cost and one unit per army can take it for free, or a pay X points for the upgrade.
Bonde wrote: So I recently acquired 8 plastic Mega Nobz.
It seems like there are differing opinions on how to equip them.
I am thinking about magnetizing them so that I am able to swap between dual Killsaws and Shoota + PK, but the question is, should go for kombi-skorcha, kombi-rokkits, kustom shootas, or a mix of the three?
As a deathskulls player, I personally go for dual saws. Other than that I might sprinkle the odd klaw/rokkit model in if I want to make use of the reroll while shooting.
Skorchas might be situationally useful if you're playing against a proper horde, but I can't see a use for shootas personally.
I will paint them as Evil Sunz, but I am thinking in terms of future proofing, if Killsaws become very expensive in the next codex, then Kustom Shoota + PK might be the cheaper way to go.
I cant remember if the kombi shooters are interchangable, but you can easily change between powerklaw/kustom shoota and the dual saws, they dont need to be magnetized.
They have small... penises (i have no idea what the word is im looking for) sticking out of the hands and holes in the weapons to slide them in. very easily.
Id put Mob Up and Grot Shields pretty far down on the usefulness of our strats. Mob Up got blasted when they FAQ'd it to only effect Boyz which was dumb. Its pretty situational now, not bad but not something you do every game. Grot Shields is another case of well what do you use it on now? Grots are quite expensive this edition and they arent seen in all lists. Maybe if you want to protect some MANs but there is better ways to keep them from harm available to us.
Extra Stikkbombz is another highly situation case. You cant use it after advancing which is what most boys will be doing, its 6" range which is pretty damn close which again means you either advanced or want to charge and not reduce your charge range or youve Da Jumped or Deep Struck onto the board from Tellyport. Ive mainly used it on Nobz who are kitted out solely for combat so no sluggas just so that they can clear out some chaff if they need too. But Nobz arent the best anyway.
I dont find myself using Loot It all that much too nowadays. You either run all Boyz or Buggies. Its great for Flashgitz but not much else due to it no longer effecting MANs. And even then the game is swimming in high AP shots with AP2 being so damn common which we'd usually have a KFF to fall back on.
I use Mob Up sometimes as my lists are typically built around a larger squad of 18-19 boyz in a BW and 2-3 units of 10 trukk boyz. That's the reason why I always ignore UGT, I don't play 30 man mobs.
Extra Stikkbombz is great for Tankbustas but almost impossible to get. I managed to do it a few times though, and a 8-10 man squad can cause absolute overkill.
Loot It and Grot Shield for me died with 8th as I never even played Gretchins, Flash Gitz and Nobz in 9th edition. I guess I could try to give a 5+ save to the 15ish man squad of boyz that survives the death of their BW but it doesn't seem much of a rewarding investment.
I agree that they're all situational stratagems, but I don't think there is any army that uses more than the same 5-10ish active stratagems every game.
i've used extra stikkbombs quite a bit but generally only after getting out of a transport, as im usually not close enough with enough bodies otherwise.
Even stikkbombs can be a significant damage boost considering Blast.
Beardedragon wrote: I cant remember if the kombi shooters are interchangable, but you can easily change between powerklaw/kustom shoota and the dual saws, they dont need to be magnetized.
They have small... penises (i have no idea what the word is im looking for) sticking out of the hands and holes in the weapons to slide them in. very easily.
Good point, I might not need to magnetize the hands at all. The different shoota bits are very small, and would require small magnets, but we are getting off topic here
MrMoustaffa wrote: Is there a particular situation where you want shoota boyz over sluggas? I got a couple shoota mobs just because they look cool but even with a full volley of 30 boyz, you're getting what, maybe 2 dead marines? I'm kind of struggling to see a point to them, which is weird since back in 5th all I remember people running was shoota boyz. That said mass S4 shooting was muh scarier back then than it is now, so I guess it makes sense.
A mob of 20/10 as slugga/shoota seems even more situational, because yeah while you're probably not getting all 30 boyz into every combat, what good are those extra 10 S4 shots really giving you? The only thing I can think of is if hordes become the big thing and you need ways to weaken gaunt or enemy boyz mobs, but even then you're risking shooting yourself out of charge range.
30 shoota boyz, all in range get 23.3 hits. VS T4 thats 11.66 wounds, and against a 3+ save that is 3.8 dmg. So likely 2 dead Marines, but very plausible to only get 1 and 1 wounded. The only advantage is so marginal as to be irrelevant. You are talking about a situation where the Boyz are in range to charge, and want to shoot something outside of charge range. So the 50/50 split would be literally HALF the dakka I just mentioned, so instead of 3.8, its closer to 1.9 or 1 dead Marine, on the other hand you might be talking turn 1 where you are out of charge range, but at that point you advanced which means you are hitting on 6s so again, half the dakka previously mentioned, and if its that 50/50 split its actually 1/4th 30 shots = 5.8ish hits, 3 wounds 1dmg. Obviously once you hit CC you are taking casualties from the shoota boyz because they are functionally useless at this point in comparison to a choppa boy.
I mean, you can always do what you want and plan for those fringe situations but the benefit is so rare and minor that I honestly just run all my boyz as Choppa boyz, so I don't have to worry about positioning and which models to remove.
Vineheart01 wrote: i've used extra stikkbombs quite a bit but generally only after getting out of a transport, as im usually not close enough with enough bodies otherwise.
Even stikkbombs can be a significant damage boost considering Blast.
What unit are you shooting at after you disembark usually? Most units nowadays in the meta arent large enough to get affected by blast of either bracket unless we are talking Necron Warriors which even then they will barely scratch the paint. Even if its max 54 shots, hitting on 5s wounding on 5s with no AP (not taking into account DDD for the Boyz or RP for Necrons) kills 3 Warriors. The Tankbusta Bomb kills 0.69 ( ) again with no DDD or RP, so lets say 4 Warriors die, thats not great for a CP and the time taken to roll the shots.
If its against 5 Intercessors, we will say its 32 shots, thats 1 wound to a Primaris, the TBB kills 1. So 1.5 Intercessors. not great returns. Against GEQ wouldnt it be better to just fire the sluggas and make the 6" charge anyway and not waste the CP? I dont think 10 grenades kills much for Orks, maybe with Boomboyz due to str4 AP1 but not something id focus my list on.
So i tried a list of Deathskulls today as my first time playing something other than Goff, because i had gotten my hands on a Kustom Boosta blasta, a Shokk attack gun big mek and a Gunwagon i ran as "Da Boomer".
Next to that 3x 20 boyz, and 2x 10 grot units.And some nobz, and mega nobz, and a warboss on warbike to charge the big trakk some were in yadda yadda and a bunch of stuff. Anyway, Im unsure if im convinced the "Da Boomer" really did me anything good. Sure i got around 10-16 hits in general, but hitting on 5s (and using more dakka when i remembered it, which i mostly didnt") still often didnt get that many hits and wounds.
I admit right off the bat i forgot to use my rerolls for deathskullz quite often, so thats on me. I also fought against custodies (the mustard men) which soaked up quite a decent amount of hits but the whole hitting on 5s is really painful. I will try the deffroller variant next time with "Da Red Roller" to see what happens, ill throw it in my Goff ghazzy group.
I also am aware that the shokk attack gun is not at all as glorious as it used to be but i wanted to try it. But i honestly just felt disappointed using it. my amount of shots were often very low, highest strength i ever got was 8 (once, also 6, and even 3), and hitting on 5s once again meant missing most things. Im not sure why a Big Mek with all those gizmoes and whirlybits doesnt hit on a 4 but maybe thats just me.
Anyway, the weirdboy with maniacal seizures seemed pretty interesting, it made my boyz get -AP when they swarmed the debuffed unit which was nice, an over all interesting and good debuff i think.
I will keep trying da boomer as having its virgin voyage against custodies is rough, but the shokk attack gun sure didnt really help me, quite literally 120 wasted points. he just sat perched in his tower missing everything and being generally useless.
So tomorrow I am going to be playing my friend in a 1500pt game, my Orks vs. his Drukhari. I am trying a strategy I have always wanted to give a shot, running a gunwagon with "Da Boomer" as Evil Sunz.
I plan on using my wierdboy to cast "Visions in the Smoke" in conjunction with "More Dakka" to take out as many raiders and venoms as possible. The gunwagon will also have the lobba and 4 big shootas for maximum value. I will let you know how it works.
MANz needs to be magnetized because this plastic “penisies” will break down during the 5th changing of the weapons. The good news is, it' s a fast job you can do afterwards.
I see the system of paying CP for units upgrades instead of points pretty clever for orks. Why? Our biggest disadventage is that we die fast like a hell. And except some obvious ways how to survive like KFF etc, our main in-built surviving system is - a lot of cheap models and units. If you say “let' s have custom jobs in the unit included in higher price” keep in mind that it means, you will take less buggies or dreads or whatever. And that is the opposite to what makes them work. You need a lot of scrapjets to make them working. You need a lot of smashagunz to make them working. Etc. Because they die easily and because their weapons are more or less random and you need to have enough tries to hit the lucky numbers. So I don' t have a big problem with this system. And honestly, I'm pretty lucky I can focus on right positioning and target prioritizing on the table and not to be distracted by keeping in mind some crazy strategems shenenyngas.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Big Mek Sparknutz wrote: So tomorrow I am going to be playing my friend in a 1500pt game, my Orks vs. his Drukhari. I am trying a strategy I have always wanted to give a shot, running a gunwagon with "Da Boomer" as Evil Sunz.
I plan on using my wierdboy to cast "Visions in the Smoke" in conjunction with "More Dakka" to take out as many raiders and venoms as possible. The gunwagon will also have the lobba and 4 big shootas for maximum value. I will let you know how it works.
Well that is the good example to my previous comment. The way to luck is a lot of body on the table to survive. Any of our units dies in 1 turn, in case enemy pick this unit up as a target. So general system is to keep the units bare and naked. Wanna Da Boomer? Take Da Boomer and dont waste a points for some lobba or big shootas. They have no synergie with Da Boomer and their price per point is terrible. Spare your 40p and take one smashugun to do another long range damage and screen some other part of the field. Or take some deffkopta to make a mess in his deploy and save you a turn of firing from Da Boomer or somethíng like this.
Btw. this is valid not only for orks, but for most of other armies too. The longer you live, the longer you can do something.
ive changed weapons at least 5 times by now between my powerklaws and saws, they work fine i think.
Big Mek Sparknutz wrote: So tomorrow I am going to be playing my friend in a 1500pt game, my Orks vs. his Drukhari. I am trying a strategy I have always wanted to give a shot, running a gunwagon with "Da Boomer" as Evil Sunz.
I plan on using my wierdboy to cast "Visions in the Smoke" in conjunction with "More Dakka" to take out as many raiders and venoms as possible. The gunwagon will also have the lobba and 4 big shootas for maximum value. I will let you know how it works.
I thought about going Evil Sunz too for my Da Boomer match for visions in the smoke but the problem is if you dont have a vehicle with higher wound counts then you first need to cast and manifest your ability, and then theres a decent chance the value is either too low or too high for you to not be able to cast it on your wagon. To use this ability to the best of its ability there needs to be both value units (17 wounds and less, and 18 wounds and higher) so that when the ability manifests, you can always find a target for the ability. Right now you actually need to be quite lucky to cast it on your wagon. +6 to manifest then see if its between 6 and 8 to cast it on the wagon. You will fail if you cast a +9 since you have no units with 18 wounds or more.
With the recent DG preview (plague weapon "kustom jobs"), it's fairly likely that kustom jobs will be costing points, not CP. Let's just hope they drop the points of the non-customized stuff down by enough.
Anyway, Im unsure if im convinced the "Da Boomer" really did me anything good. Sure i got around 10-16 hits in general, but hitting on 5s (and using more dakka when i remembered it, which i mostly didnt") still often didnt get that many hits and wounds.
Da Boomer is ok for 175 points and 1CP. With a few buffs like Deathskullz re-rolls, Freeboota +1 to hit, Evil sunz visions, etc has good odds to get its points back.
Anyway, the weirdboy with maniacal seizures seemed pretty interesting, it made my boyz get -AP when they swarmed the debuffed unit which was nice, an over all interesting and good debuff i think.
Maniacal seizures is extremely powerful, sometimes even game breaking. Its only downside is that it's not reliable without lots of bodies around to boost the psyker.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Is there a particular situation where you want shoota boyz over sluggas? I got a couple shoota mobs just because they look cool but even with a full volley of 30 boyz, you're getting what, maybe 2 dead marines? I'm kind of struggling to see a point to them, which is weird since back in 5th all I remember people running was shoota boyz. That said mass S4 shooting was muh scarier back then than it is now, so I guess it makes sense.
/.../
I mean, you can always do what you want and plan for those fringe situations but the benefit is so rare and minor that I honestly just run all my boyz as Choppa boyz, so I don't have to worry about positioning and which models to remove.
The benefit all depends on where you use it. Shooting main line units will put a small dent in them of course, but if it´s 5 Infiltrators gunning for your DZ to Scramble (because your huge footprint army screened it out), then 1 or 2 Marines is worth it. So there's an argument for versatility.
Or simply, 3 x 30 Boyz takes space, which is a tactical problem (at least in my experience). Having them standing around because a savvy opponent body blocked or charged and tarpitted you is a liability. Sure, running board wide is an option, but not necessarily the strategically correct option every day.
On new the Kustom Job thing I guess it´s a tossup. I don´t think the designers are that coherent in their work. More of a internal and external balance goal followed by "what is cool?". If that designer doesn´t feel Kustom Jobs they´re out. Imagining strategic design meetings which actually results in anything people pay attention to talks against my 30 years experience of working within global companies
Beardedragon wrote: ive changed weapons at least 5 times by now between my powerklaws and saws, they work fine i think.
Big Mek Sparknutz wrote: So tomorrow I am going to be playing my friend in a 1500pt game, my Orks vs. his Drukhari. I am trying a strategy I have always wanted to give a shot, running a gunwagon with "Da Boomer" as Evil Sunz.
I plan on using my wierdboy to cast "Visions in the Smoke" in conjunction with "More Dakka" to take out as many raiders and venoms as possible. The gunwagon will also have the lobba and 4 big shootas for maximum value. I will let you know how it works.
I thought about going Evil Sunz too for my Da Boomer match for visions in the smoke but the problem is if you dont have a vehicle with higher wound counts then you first need to cast and manifest your ability, and then theres a decent chance the value is either too low or too high for you to not be able to cast it on your wagon. To use this ability to the best of its ability there needs to be both value units (17 wounds and less, and 18 wounds and higher) so that when the ability manifests, you can always find a target for the ability. Right now you actually need to be quite lucky to cast it on your wagon. +6 to manifest then see if its between 6 and 8 to cast it on the wagon. You will fail if you cast a +9 since you have no units with 18 wounds or more.
The odds are against you here.
6-8 - success
0-5 + 9-12 - failure
I do not believe that's how "Visions" works. "Select a friendly Evil Sunz vehicle unit within 12" (can only select units with 18+ wounds on a WC roll of 9+), and reroll all hit rolls for that unit until your next psychic phase." That is stating that you are allowed to pick vehicles with 18+ wounds on a 9+ roll, not that you have to. No where else have I read that is how to play that rule.
Beardedragon wrote: ive changed weapons at least 5 times by now between my powerklaws and saws, they work fine i think.
Big Mek Sparknutz wrote: So tomorrow I am going to be playing my friend in a 1500pt game, my Orks vs. his Drukhari. I am trying a strategy I have always wanted to give a shot, running a gunwagon with "Da Boomer" as Evil Sunz.
I plan on using my wierdboy to cast "Visions in the Smoke" in conjunction with "More Dakka" to take out as many raiders and venoms as possible. The gunwagon will also have the lobba and 4 big shootas for maximum value. I will let you know how it works.
I thought about going Evil Sunz too for my Da Boomer match for visions in the smoke but the problem is if you dont have a vehicle with higher wound counts then you first need to cast and manifest your ability, and then theres a decent chance the value is either too low or too high for you to not be able to cast it on your wagon. To use this ability to the best of its ability there needs to be both value units (17 wounds and less, and 18 wounds and higher) so that when the ability manifests, you can always find a target for the ability. Right now you actually need to be quite lucky to cast it on your wagon. +6 to manifest then see if its between 6 and 8 to cast it on the wagon. You will fail if you cast a +9 since you have no units with 18 wounds or more.
The odds are against you here.
6-8 - success
0-5 + 9-12 - failure
I do not believe that's how "Visions" works. "Select a friendly Evil Sunz vehicle unit within 12" (can only select units with 18+ wounds on a WC roll of 9+), and reroll all hit rolls for that unit until your next psychic phase." That is stating that you are allowed to pick vehicles with 18+ wounds on a 9+ roll, not that you have to. No where else have I read that is how to play that rule.
have i misunderstood the rule?
I assumed you had to pick one with 18 wounds or more if it was a 9+.
feth me im a complete dingus, I thought it was made that way to make it different but also to put a hindrance on the ability since rerolling all failed hits is pretty good. Ive read that ability a couple of times, not sure why I understood it so wrongly. This changes everything
Tomsug wrote: MANz needs to be magnetized because this plastic “penisies” will break down during the 5th changing of the weapons. The good news is, it' s a fast job you can do afterwards.
I see the system of paying CP for units upgrades instead of points pretty clever for orks. Why? Our biggest disadventage is that we die fast like a hell. And except some obvious ways how to survive like KFF etc, our main in-built surviving system is - a lot of cheap models and units. If you say “let' s have custom jobs in the unit included in higher price” keep in mind that it means, you will take less buggies or dreads or whatever. And that is the opposite to what makes them work. You need a lot of scrapjets to make them working. You need a lot of smashagunz to make them working. Etc. Because they die easily and because their weapons are more or less random and you need to have enough tries to hit the lucky numbers. So I don' t have a big problem with this system. And honestly, I'm pretty lucky I can focus on right positioning and target prioritizing on the table and not to be distracted by keeping in mind some crazy strategems shenenyngas.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Big Mek Sparknutz wrote: So tomorrow I am going to be playing my friend in a 1500pt game, my Orks vs. his Drukhari. I am trying a strategy I have always wanted to give a shot, running a gunwagon with "Da Boomer" as Evil Sunz.
I plan on using my wierdboy to cast "Visions in the Smoke" in conjunction with "More Dakka" to take out as many raiders and venoms as possible. The gunwagon will also have the lobba and 4 big shootas for maximum value. I will let you know how it works.
Well that is the good example to my previous comment. The way to luck is a lot of body on the table to survive. Any of our units dies in 1 turn, in case enemy pick this unit up as a target. So general system is to keep the units bare and naked. Wanna Da Boomer? Take Da Boomer and dont waste a points for some lobba or big shootas. They have no synergie with Da Boomer and their price per point is terrible. Spare your 40p and take one smashugun to do another long range damage and screen some other part of the field. Or take some deffkopta to make a mess in his deploy and save you a turn of firing from Da Boomer or somethíng like this.
Btw. this is valid not only for orks, but for most of other armies too. The longer you live, the longer you can do something.
Id agree with you if Orks were actually cheap. In the wider view of things were arent actually that cheap for what we do or put out in terms of durability and firepower. A Dreadnought is 120pts for a Assault Cannon, Stormbolter and a Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon. Thats 5 attacks on the first round of combat (unless piled in to) at WS3 Str12 AP3 D3 whilst ignoring -1 damage innate and having an ok gun with it being 6 shots Str6 AP2 turn 1 D1 at BS3 and then a smattering of bolter fire. A Deff Dread to get the same amount of attacks as a Dreadnought with Shock Assault is 100pts without the 4th arm and we are only Str10 and we dont reduce damage like the Dread. Slap on a Big Shoota to keep him down on cost hes 105pts, 15pts more gets you soooo much more. I wouldnt call the Deff Dread cheap when an "elite" armies Dread is 15pts more for quite a lot better. Adding a Skorcha makes us 5pts less than what the Marines have to offer and they arent really taking your standard Dread.
Ive made a comment on our Warbikes a fair few pages back and they are up there for being the most expensive, only 1pt less than CSM and SM bikers. Outriders, Shining Spears, Sky Weavers, Black knights, Vertus Praetors (and of course Nob Bikers) are the only bikes more expensive.
Lootas my lord, 20ppm. Its quite bad. A Havok with an Autocannon is 27ppm with toughness 5, ignoring moving and shooting penalty for heavy weapons, 3+ save, better leadership and movement... All that for 7pts more.
Nobz 17ppm. Assault Intercessors 19ppm. Ones our Elites, the other their Troops. One is just better with the armies standard CC weapon.
Meganobz with dual Killsaws are 40ppm. A Terminator is 38ppm with Storm Bolter and Powerfist, 33ppm with Lightning Claws, 43ppm with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields. 2 options are cheaper and just as killy, 1 is 3ppm more expensive with a 1+ save and a 4++.
Our buggies, jeez are they expensive. An Achillies Ridgerunner is 70ppm stock. A Marine ATV is 80-85pts... can be revived, gets better synergies and weapons. Yeah why is our buggies 90-110pts I dont even know.
A Leman Russ stock with a Battlecannon and Heavy Bolter is 165pts, a Gunwagon is 175pts. It might hold 12 models, with 4 extra wounds and a smattering of CC attacks but it has a worse save, worse range, larger footprint so its harder to hide and it hits worse. Would anyone take a Gunwagon without Da Boomer?
A Painboy, 65pts. An Apothecary 75pts. Does the same thing, has a 3+ save and can revive models for a CP or pay 15pts to do it for free.
Hell our Shokk Attack Gun Big Mek is a whopping 120pts! Who fought that was a good price?
Troops 5ppm for a Grot! 8ppm for an Boy. When compared to Guardsmen/Conscripts 5ppm, Rangers/Vanguard 9ppm, Breachers/Strike 9ppm, Termagants 5ppm, Hormagaunts 6ppm, Broad Brothers 5ppm, Neophytes 6ppm, Acolytes 8ppm. Its not really funny what we get for our cost compared to other armies.
Nothing grinds my gears more than someone saying Orks are a cheap army, we arent. Yes Mek Gunz are, the rest of our army not so much. just because a unit gets improved doesnt mean the cost has to go up. Look at Mortarion. 490pts before his improvements. 490pts after. Yeah he lost his -1 toughness and MW aura but he gained a toughness and an attack, Silence's Eviscerating Blow up to Dd3+3 from Dd6, and now he has a Chapter Master equivalent rule, whilst keeping his old reroll 1s to hit aura which only affects Core.
Adding KJs as permanent additions to our units doesnt have to warrant a price increase. Id rather have more interesting and powerful stratagems to spend my CP on instead of blowing my load pregame because Orks dont have that many great stratagems to begin with due to them being highly specific or costly with not much gain.
They're not. 50$ for a 90-110 ppm means they're too cheap actually. They're 11-14 points per wound which isn't bad for what they do.
Some other things may be even cheaper, I know that, but that's their problem. Buggies are ok.
Tons of undercosted SM units unfortunately exist. Making everything cheaper, once again, isn't the answer. Raise the cost of the elite dudes that are dirty cheap instead.
They're not. 50$ for a 90-110 ppm means they're too cheap actually. They're 11-14 points per wound which isn't bad for what they do.
Some other things may be even cheaper, I know that, but that's their problem. Buggies are ok.
Tons of undercosted SM units unfortunately exist. Making everything cheaper, once again, isn't the answer. Raise the cost of the elite dudes that are dirty cheap instead.
Money wise I dont find them expensive, points wise I do. I was more commenting on including KJs as standard issue items/abilities doesnt mean you have to increase the models cost. But I still find that buggies are all atleast 10pts overcosted.
Money wise I dont find them expensive, points wise I do. I was more commenting on including KJs as standard issue items/abilities doesnt mean you have to increase the models cost. But I still find that buggies are all atleast 10pts overcosted.
Well, we disagree, for me it's the exact oppositve. 50$ for a buggy is almost insane, 90-110 for their profile is a good deal, IMHO they could even be 10ppm more expensive and still worthy. And I never use KJ on buggies.
Jidmah wrote: With the recent DG preview (plague weapon "kustom jobs"), it's fairly likely that kustom jobs will be costing points, not CP. Let's just hope they drop the points of the non-customized stuff down by enough.
This is the way.
And hopefully GW gives us a plethora of great strats for us to use CP on. I don't think I should largely ignore the stratagem game because I don't happen to take 120 boys or lootas every game.
So, the new list app is out from GW, and the kannonwagon has big shootas as 0pts in it is as well. Guess it's confirmed they did mean those to be free. Interestingly it lists them as free for Battlewagons as well but that's probably just a lazy copy paste error.
MrMoustaffa wrote: So, the new list app is out from GW, and the kannonwagon has big shootas as 0pts in it is as well. Guess it's confirmed they did mean those to be free. Interestingly it lists them as free for Battlewagons as well but that's probably just a lazy copy paste error.
It's not a mistake. IA has them as free upgrades. I imagine if it's just modelled or not, but you'd never not take them if they're free.
Also a hopeful sign that big shootas are getting cheaper. 5 points is too much.
gungo wrote: It’s possible they are included in the future profiles however it’s possible there is a mistake...
For instance the big Mek in mega armor can take the kustom force field for free as well... but it cost points on a Morkanaut and wazbom...
In GW app? Wau.. seems they made a mess again...
To be fair it’s been that way for a while in the app.. other then it being extremely slow for adding strats I haven’t had much issues but I don’t have a fw compendium code to try out the new dread loadouts.
Beardedragon wrote:Anyway, the weirdboy with maniacal seizures seemed pretty interesting, it made my boyz get -AP when they swarmed the debuffed unit which was nice, an over all interesting and good debuff i think.
...
I did win the match though.
Kudos on the win. I've long been a fan of Shoota Boyz and have had good success with them over the editions. While it isn't a huge shift, 30 Shoota Boyz can put out a lot of shots, and forcing buckets and buckets of saves gets through saves. I've been thinking of this same thing. Several Weirdboyz and spamming Shoota Boyz along with some other AT weaponry (Tankbustas in DS have a good strat). I think the Rokkit is -2 DMG3? Taking a Knight from a 3+ to a 6+ vs Rokkits helps.
Beardedragon wrote:Anyway, the weirdboy with maniacal seizures seemed pretty interesting, it made my boyz get -AP when they swarmed the debuffed unit which was nice, an over all interesting and good debuff i think.
...
I did win the match though.
Kudos on the win. I've long been a fan of Shoota Boyz and have had good success with them over the editions. While it isn't a huge shift, 30 Shoota Boyz can put out a lot of shots, and forcing buckets and buckets of saves gets through saves. I've been thinking of this same thing. Several Weirdboyz and spamming Shoota Boyz along with some other AT weaponry (Tankbustas in DS have a good strat). I think the Rokkit is -2 DMG3? Taking a Knight from a 3+ to a 6+ vs Rokkits helps.
Beardedragon wrote:Anyway, the weirdboy with maniacal seizures seemed pretty interesting, it made my boyz get -AP when they swarmed the debuffed unit which was nice, an over all interesting and good debuff i think.
...
I did win the match though.
Kudos on the win. I've long been a fan of Shoota Boyz and have had good success with them over the editions. While it isn't a huge shift, 30 Shoota Boyz can put out a lot of shots, and forcing buckets and buckets of saves gets through saves. I've been thinking of this same thing. Several Weirdboyz and spamming Shoota Boyz along with some other AT weaponry (Tankbustas in DS have a good strat). I think the Rokkit is -2 DMG3? Taking a Knight from a 3+ to a 6+ vs Rokkits helps.
Once my Iron Rider from Artel W comes in, I might just for a total hoot field a triple Goff Bike boss list.
Take like:
1) Da biggest boss, Killa Klaw
2) Warlord: Kill Saw, Brutal but Kunnin
3) Da Lucky Stick Kill Saw
3 Smash bosses. 1 w/ 6 attacks, killa klaw, 1 w/ Kill saw re-roll all hits flat 3, 1 w/ Kill saw, re-all all hits and wounds.
I don't even care if it would work, it would just be a hoot to play.
Extra gubbinz and if you go Bad moon you can get that 4+ invul save relic. While Bad moon does you absolutely nothing in terms of kulture, it could be for the giggles. But with da biggest boss as well you have, at least 2 out of 3 bosses with a 4+ invul save.
Otherwise Goff or deathskulls. With their speed you should be able to reach the enemy by turn 1 without evil sunz.
Also a hopeful sign that big shootas are getting cheaper. 5 points is too much.
It's very unlikely. Looking at the 9th codex it seems that GW is rounding the points costs to multiples of 5 whenever possible. Very few things are now costed below 5 points. It's easier they get AP-1 than a discount in points.
Also a hopeful sign that big shootas are getting cheaper. 5 points is too much.
It's very unlikely. Looking at the 9th codex it seems that GW is rounding the points costs to multiples of 5 whenever possible. Very few things are now costed below 5 points. It's easier they get AP-1 than a discount in points.
I hope that they get AP-1 rather than becoming cheaper, because right now it barely feels worth it to roll the dice.
Once my Iron Rider from Artel W comes in, I might just for a total hoot field a triple Goff Bike boss list.
Take like:
1) Da biggest boss, Killa Klaw
2) Warlord: Kill Saw, Brutal but Kunnin
3) Da Lucky Stick Kill Saw
3 Smash bosses. 1 w/ 6 attacks, killa klaw, 1 w/ Kill saw re-roll all hits flat 3, 1 w/ Kill saw, re-all all hits and wounds.
I don't even care if it would work, it would just be a hoot to play.
Extra gubbinz and if you go Bad moon you can get that 4+ invul save relic. While Bad moon does you absolutely nothing in terms of kulture, it could be for the giggles. But with da biggest boss as well you have, at least 2 out of 3 bosses with a 4+ invul save.
Otherwise Goff or deathskulls. With their speed you should be able to reach the enemy by turn 1 without evil sunz.
The 4++ is the Warlord trait for Badmoons, the relic is the Gobshot Thunderbuss which I used to use on a Dreadwaaagh! Biker Big Mek with a 2 Kombi Skorchas for firing twice for 8D6 shots autohitting str 5 ap 1 shots. I even made a custom model for him using the Deffkilla Wartrike, swapped the Speedboss for the old Finecast BM with SAG used the SJD to give it some new tires, swapped the jet engine for the shokk jump drive, swapped the two boomstikks with 2 big shootas from the Deff Dread kit and gave the mek 3 skorchas.
He then became legends. he was great at killing infantry and marines back in the day, but he wasnt a brawler like the Warboss on Bike.
Test results: In a case study of 2 I highly enjoyed pairing a Da Boomer Gunwagon with Evils Sunz "Visions in the Smoke". When it goes off with "More Dakka" it is devastating. The down side is you can really take out only one unit at a time with it due to periscope restrictions. With a warp charge of 6 it is pretty trivial for your weirdboy to get it off as well. A T8 16W vehicle is not easy to take out and will take dedicated resources from your opponent, especially if you have a KFF with the gunwagon. When it does go, there's a 50% of a d6 explosion so that is something to look out for.
Bottom line: 4d6 shots that dakka on 5s with "More Dakka". Reroll all misses including dakkas. That's a lot of S8 AP-2 2D shots that need to be saved. Very good against basically any of your opponents juicy targets, make sure they don't have the -1 damage ability though obviously. Very fun and I would suggest people try at least once if able.
Am i supposed to understand "Da burnin' Highway" as you cant use this ability in Overwatch?
Also have anyone noticed that after the Chinork got updated it no longer has "Open Topped" ability? Its literally a scaffolding with rotors yet people cant shoot "out" of it? the official model dont even have side walls. whats to shoot "out" of anyway.
Do you think its a mistake that they didnt give it open topped?
You cannot use the stratagem during overwatch, but if you have used it during your shooting phase, the burna exhaust remain buffed until your next turn.
What you do is drive a KBB in a position where it might get charged, activate burning highway and set something on fire. When your opponent then charges you during his turn you can either scare him off by repeatedly talking about how much damage those burnas will do in overwatch, or you just pay a CP and scorch them.
And yes, the chinork has lost open topped. Either they wanted to nerf it dead or they didn't care. Pick one.
Jidmah wrote: You cannot use the stratagem during overwatch, but if you have used it during your shooting phase, the burna exhaust remain buffed until your next turn.
What you do is drive a KBB in a position where it might get charged, activate burning highway and set something on fire. When your opponent then charges you during his turn you can either scare him off by repeatedly talking about how much damage those burnas will do in overwatch, or you just pay a CP and scorch them.
And yes, the chinork has lost open topped. Either they wanted to nerf it dead or they didn't care. Pick one.
thanks thats useful information.
But it also means i accidentially cheated in my last game when i activated Da Burning highway during my overwatch phase. Whoops.
im a bit saddened by the loss of open topped for chinork though. I tend to transport Nobz in it with Big Choppas but when i got hold of Tank bustas they were meant to fly in and shoot. thats sad.
Well, it's not an ork boy in the conventional sense. It's a one off commemorative model like the Red Gobbo. I really like the old school call back but let's not get people riled up over a unique character model.
We'll see if they actually bother giving it rules with the release.
Yeah, boring. He’s a nice model but he’ll be useless I’m sure. Wish they’d spend that time on kits for actual units rather than a random limited useless dude lol.
Vineheart01 wrote: interesting....wonder what hes gonna do.
That looks like a bog standard shoota and choppa, and he has no mek bitz.
The heck could a "boy" do to justify being a character? And i mean boy, he doesnt even look like a Nob.
edit: nvm...thats not a normal release. i can almost guarantee thats a joke, limited release for legends. Again.
Pretty sure he is a Nob not a Boy. The Gamesday model was a Nob and this guy has the boss glyph hanging off his choppa and has the bulk of a standard Nob.
Also something else of note, not all of these special release characters get rules. So I think people are over thinking this limited release character. From what I've heard he will be released on Boxing day like Tech Priest Grombindal was last year.
But I wouldnt expect him to come with a datasheet, definitely not for open play and even then who cares about a Goff Boss Nob with a choppa and slugga.
He is a nice model and I will be getting one and giving him a powerklaw or killsaw. I have the old Gamesday Nob. So itll be cool to have his new rendition.
If we're lucky we may get rules for him, like the ability to replace a goff boyz nob and get some small little benifit. But knowing GW that'll be in a white dwarf and not be usable in matched play.
Either way, Give him a big choppa or klaw and he'll make an interesting enough unit leader.
cody.d. wrote: If we're lucky we may get rules for him, like the ability to replace a goff boyz nob and get some small little benifit. But knowing GW that'll be in a white dwarf and not be usable in matched play.
Either way, Give him a big choppa or klaw and he'll make an interesting enough unit leader.
My hope is that this means we will get some sort of generic Nob lieutenant-type character, since this feels like all those special edition Space Marine Lieutenants, Chaplains, and Stormcast Questors. If it's not like that I will probably use him as my Shoota Boyz nob and give his grot to Badrukk as an ammo runt.
cody.d. wrote: If we're lucky we may get rules for him, like the ability to replace a goff boyz nob and get some small little benifit. But knowing GW that'll be in a white dwarf and not be usable in matched play.
Either way, Give him a big choppa or klaw and he'll make an interesting enough unit leader.
My hope is that this means we will get some sort of generic Nob lieutenant-type character, since this feels like all those special edition Space Marine Lieutenants, Chaplains, and Stormcast Questors. If it's not like that I will probably use him as my Shoota Boyz nob and give his grot to Badrukk as an ammo runt.
I mean, we sort of have a Lieutenant in the form of Waaagh Banners, all we need is a few different types of banners beyond the basic 1+bs. One for shooty armies would be nice.
I mean, we sort of have a Lieutenant in the form of Waaagh Banners, all we need is a few different types of banners beyond the basic 1+bs. One for shooty armies would be nice.
Could be a plastic replacement for the old resin/metal ones.
cody.d. wrote: If we're lucky we may get rules for him, like the ability to replace a goff boyz nob and get some small little benifit. But knowing GW that'll be in a white dwarf and not be usable in matched play.
Either way, Give him a big choppa or klaw and he'll make an interesting enough unit leader.
My hope is that this means we will get some sort of generic Nob lieutenant-type character, since this feels like all those special edition Space Marine Lieutenants, Chaplains, and Stormcast Questors. If it's not like that I will probably use him as my Shoota Boyz nob and give his grot to Badrukk as an ammo runt.
I mean, we sort of have a Lieutenant in the form of Waaagh Banners, all we need is a few different types of banners beyond the basic 1+bs. One for shooty armies would be nice.
We dont have a Lieutenant style character, the Waaagh! Banner is more like a Company Ancient, Imaginifier, Regimental Standard, Icon Ward. A Lieutenant would be the Warboss right hand ork, something like a Big Boss in Warhammer Fantasy. Bigger than all the other Nobs but smaller than a Warboss. What a Lieutenant could do for orks is a different question entirely because we arent an army that has a lot of rerolls and we have loads of way to mitigate leadership.
Well oddly, Orks received 0 core keywords in IA. You'd think Nobs on bikes would easily fall under that category, or even the big Dreads.
To be honest, I don't think Orks will have CORE at all. Hell, our buffs are almost all universally locked to certain units / keywords anyway (Waaagh, Speed Waaaagh, Baddrik's Flash gits aura, etc).
CORE seems to be a way to reduce re-rolls, which is something Orks don't have anyway.
Oh trust me i know, orks are already structured in a way that CORE was advertised to be doing (which it clearly failed at giving all gravis/bikers/dreads core for some stupid reason).
But this is GW. Everyone partakes in the new gimick even if it makes no sense. Realistically, it should only have been a marine mechanic, even the Necrons getting it makes little sense and it does cause a lot of annoying headaches with them since 95% of their supporting tools only work on core.
Vineheart01 wrote: Really all an LT type character would make sense for us to have is a +1 to charge aura to stack with the boss's adv+charge aura.
Which im still terrified how theyre gonna handle auras in our next dex, since core makes absolutely 0 sense and its going to be a thing.
Thats if Waaagh! doesnt get changed to an army wide rule like Doctrines/Protocols/Contagions, which seems most likely. Id rather a Warboss become more of a threat in melee like a Megaboss where he gains strength from taking on characters/vehicles/monsters. A Big Boss would just ensure the Warbosses orders are met so something to do with giving Orks some discipline or making them fight harder. Orks dont have many auras as it stands other than things that deal with morale or advance and charge. It would be nice to have something entirely unique for a LT style character that isnt just a rehash of what other armies get that dont really work all that well with Orks.
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tulun wrote: Well oddly, Orks received 0 core keywords in IA. You'd think Nobs on bikes would easily fall under that category, or even the big Dreads.
To be honest, I don't think Orks will have CORE at all. Hell, our buffs are almost all universally locked to certain units / keywords anyway (Waaagh, Speed Waaaagh, Baddrik's Flash gits aura, etc).
CORE seems to be a way to reduce re-rolls, which is something Orks don't have anyway.
I dont think any factions outside of Space Marines received Core on any of their units in IA. Because 80% of whats in that book has no use for Core right now due to Codexes being outdated. I can see Waaagh! becoming something like what Orruk Warclans get with their Big Waaagh! where it builds up over a number of turns and then gives benefits once you hit certain points of the gauge.
Waaagh!, KFF and Painboys are our main huge sources of auras and I cant see KFF being Core locked or Waaagh! Im 70% certain an Apothecaries 6+++ isnt Core locked too, or its thats SM have 75% of all their infantry as core anyway. Again stuff like Breakin Heads and Keepin Order dont feel like they should be onlu for Core. Say Burna Boyz dont get Core, why would a Warboss break a few skulls to keep them in line? Or a bunch of Nobz keeping some Stormboyz from running away because they are the iron fist of the Warboss.
I think Orks will get new abilities on their character to better work with what could be Core, a Big Mek who improves his constructions instead of just healing them and a Warboss who threatens/inspires his lads to greater acts of violence instead of just shouting Waaagh! every turn for advance and charge.
I could see the term Waaaagh! being a new armywide thing that changes per turn, with each kulture (or at least main kultures not subkultures) getting their own special boost on a certain turn. But the aura that the Boss has i would be shocked if that moved off of him.
The whole thing about Core is they wanted to put captains up front leading the troops. Bosses already do that because of Waaagh! so why would they remove the main reason you want one on the field outside fluff? It might get renamed for the aforementioned armywide rule, but the effect would definitely stick on them.
Hell, Waaagh! (current rule) is already pieced out the way it needs to be, theres a version for infantry (+Monster for Ghaz) and one for bikes/vehicles. Thats pieced out just fine as it is.
I am worried as well since GW will want to shove CORE and those mechanics into our army even if it doesn't functionally make sense. The most likely ones to be affected are the WAAAAGH! Banner (because Gork forbid they can buff Killa Kanz) and the Painboy FNP aura, even if it is really redundant on the latter. I would see them adding new strats or changing some of our existing ones so that we can only use them on CORE units. So I could see the 3CP fight again strat being limited to being only for CORE or just boyz given that they limited the same type of strat specifically only for Assault Intercessors in the SM codex and for Flayed Ones in the Necrons codex.
Vineheart01 wrote: I could see the term Waaaagh! being a new armywide thing that changes per turn, with each kulture (or at least main kultures not subkultures) getting their own special boost on a certain turn.
But the aura that the Boss has i would be shocked if that moved off of him.
The whole thing about Core is they wanted to put captains up front leading the troops. Bosses already do that because of Waaagh! so why would they remove the main reason you want one on the field outside fluff?
It might get renamed for the aforementioned armywide rule, but the effect would definitely stick on them.
Hell, Waaagh! (current rule) is already pieced out the way it needs to be, theres a version for infantry (+Monster for Ghaz) and one for bikes/vehicles. Thats pieced out just fine as it is.
Waaagh! has changed from edition to edition with it being a once per game thing that allowed everyone to move D6" when called, it wasnt tied to a Warboss. Then it became a once per game from a Warboss in 7th with then formations and detachments that allowed the Waaagh! to be called more than once. In 8th we now have this iteration but that doesnt mean it cant change and looking what GW has down with the likes of Necrons and Deathguard, Waaagh might very well be our Doctrine/Protocol/Contagion. The Warlord should be the focal point of the Waaagh! but the Warboss should get more than that. Advance and charge can easily be stage 1 of the Waaagh! gauge.
A Warboss isnt exactly a leader in the conventional sense, he doesnt care about his troops, he sents an example of what it means to be Orky. Then there is the case that Waaagh! doesnt work for everything. If your Loota/Flashgit/Plane/Vehicle with a heavy weapons, you get nothing from Waaagh/Speed Waaagh! unless you forgo you shooting. Waaagh shoudl effect all aspects of being an Ork, shooting, melee, toughness, the battlefield. How it is now is a poor representation of it and I hope it becomes a rolling turn based mechanic that gradually increases the tempo of the battle, not just an advance and charge aura from a Warboss, they could give him better rules like Strength from Victory like with the Ironjaws Megaboss.
They briefly had waaaaagh affect dakkajets when they first came out. I want to say it doubled it's shots the turn the waaaaagh was declared, back when it was called once a game. It's be cool to see stuff like that for all shooty units
MrMoustaffa wrote: They briefly had waaaaagh affect dakkajets when they first came out. I want to say it doubled it's shots the turn the waaaaagh was declared, back when it was called once a game. It's be cool to see stuff like that for all shooty units
I do remember that yeah! It was literally called Waaaghplane or some such. Back when twin linked was a thing. And you could pull a sneaky and get it every turn by taking a green tide if I recall, getting to use the bosses Waaagh every turn.
deffrekka wrote: Waaagh! has changed from edition to edition with it being a once per game thing that allowed everyone to move D6" when called, it wasnt tied to a Warboss.
In the 4th edition's codex, which lasted until 7th, the Waaagh! would give you fleet, an USR that allowed you to "advance"(then called "run") and charge once per game, and you had to have a warboss.
MrMoustaffa wrote: They briefly had waaaaagh affect dakkajets when they first came out. I want to say it doubled it's shots the turn the waaaaagh was declared, back when it was called once a game. It's be cool to see stuff like that for all shooty units
I do remember that yeah! It was literally called Waaaghplane or some such. Back when twin linked was a thing. And you could pull a sneaky and get it every turn by taking a green tide if I recall, getting to use the bosses Waaagh every turn.
In their original datasheets, it used to double a dakkajet's shooting which was quite frankly insane, and still would be these days. Later it was just +1 shot per supa-shoota.
deffrekka wrote: Waaagh! has changed from edition to edition with it being a once per game thing that allowed everyone to move D6" when called, it wasnt tied to a Warboss.
In the 4th edition's codex, which lasted until 7th, the Waaagh! would give you fleet, an USR that allowed you to "advance"(then called "run") and charge once per game, and you had to have a warboss.
MrMoustaffa wrote: They briefly had waaaaagh affect dakkajets when they first came out. I want to say it doubled it's shots the turn the waaaaagh was declared, back when it was called once a game. It's be cool to see stuff like that for all shooty units
I do remember that yeah! It was literally called Waaaghplane or some such. Back when twin linked was a thing. And you could pull a sneaky and get it every turn by taking a green tide if I recall, getting to use the bosses Waaagh every turn.
In their original datasheets, it used to double a dakkajet's shooting which was quite frankly insane, and still would be these days. Later it was just +1 shot per supa-shoota.
Which is what I stated, labelling all the USR to players who have probably never heard of them isnt a good thing, but I explained what it did. Waaagh! has changed throughout the editions and so it can change again. Like ive said before, a Waaagh! effects all aspects of Orkoid warfare as been noted in novels, short stories and our codexes/rulebook race sections for quite a while. Currently Waaagh! doesnt nothing for your units that cant advance and charge whilst shooting. A Dakkajet used to get more shots when a Waaagh! was called in the past, stuff like this should happen for those units that are primarily shooting. What does a Loota get from advance and charging, or Flashgits? Our planes? Our heavy gun platforms like Gunwagons/Kannonwagons/Gorka-Morkanaut/Stompa? If these units advance to get any benefit of a Waaagh! they cant shoot their heavy weapons.
Waaagh! should still require a Warlord to use it but it should do more than just giving your army advance and charge. Im reading Red Waaagh! again and in that it palpable. It scares the opposition, it drives the Orks into new heights of violence and toughness. It should be something more akin to Big Waaagh! in Orruk Warclans.
I agree with Deffrekka. Waaagh shouldn't be the ork definition of being able to run and charge, it's the excitement orks get when they are inspired by their leader on the battlefield.
Choppy orks might gain a bonus in assault (run and charge), shooty ones a complete different buff that reflects their way of doing the fight: immunity to morale, the ability of moving and firing heavy weapons without penalties, more shots, better accuracy, better S, AP or range; after all their weapons work because they believe so, right?
Blackie wrote: I agree with Deffrekka. Waaagh shouldn't be the ork definition of being able to run and charge, it's the excitement orks get when they are inspired by their leader on the battlefield.
Choppy orks might gain a bonus in assault (run and charge), shooty ones a complete different buff that reflects their way of doing the fight: immunity to morale, the ability of moving and firing heavy weapons without penalties, more shots, better accuracy, better S, AP or range; after all their weapons work because they believe so, right?
Yeah Waaagh! energy is like psychic oil, it helps Ork tech work a bit better than it should. It doesnt mean a stick will fire slugs if an Ork believes hard enough, but an engine that is prone to stalling wont stall as much and a shoota that would misfire or jam will fire more reliably. But as more and more Orks get together it magnifies, until it reaches a boiling point. It effects enemy psykers, the battlefield, Orky innovation and tactics and making them hyper aggressive. In Evil Sun Rising you see this from an Ork's prospective with Uggrim the Mek Boss in his stompa fighting an Imperial knight. He descends into a red mist and it urges him to kill like being in a trance, so even though he is in his Stompas command deck, he bursts open the hatch and starts firing with his Kustom Mega-Slugga. His Stompa isnt going faster, but his crew operate the Stompa more efficiently and they win the fight even though the Knight far outpaces his mech.
Well for starters, our Waaagh Ability was already basically a nerf when it came out in 8th. We went from a once a game ARMY WIDE advance/charge to a 6' aura around a warboss. Other factions got a brand new rule they didn't have access to prior in such ridiculous ways, for instance, SM characters gained rerolls to hit and wound.
So changing the ork ability back to army wide with different rules for each type of unit wouldn't be that bad, but I would still want the warboss to buff somehow. And as far as a Ork LT, I do not want anymore leadership buffs. As it is Leadership barely impacts us at all, what does need help though is the fact that our units die to a stiff breeze and when they actually do inflict damage its paltry in comparison to their imperial and xenos counter parts. As a reminder, SM Intercessors inflict about as much dmg to Orkz as orkz inflict to intercessors in CC!
As far as the new model is concerned, I'm thinking he is going to be a similar release to the red gobbo. Limited release, legends only. But hey, maybe we get lucky and this is the teaser for the ork release sometime early next year.
actually i viewed it as a buff in 8th, but i agree it felt a little cheap reworking a rule we already had instead of getting somethign new. Marines went from next to no rerolls outside their vehicles' and termies' twinlinked stuff to army-wide rerolls as a comparison....kinda...kinda not really an equal buff lol /rant
Old-Waagh was once, so i felt super pressured to use it at the perfect time. Set up for a dakkajet or two to get doubleshots (mind you facing mattered back then) and 1-2 units to adv+charge. If i flipped the advance roll, often i was too short to charge now (or at least reliably) since back then you removed from the front, so any overwatch pushed you back needing an even bigger charge. Charging beyond 6" was pretty much impossible for boyz w/o some ridiculous luck.
Then it went to a 6" aura, which sounds restrictive, but its permanent. No more guessing if nows the turn i'll not get screwed over by bad advance or charge rolls and lose the ability to get across the board fast enough before i get tabled, no more only 1 potentially 2 units ever getting it period. Loss of the dakkajet part was hyper irritating but whatever.
I'll admit i'm somewhat salty that a handful of armies get the advance and charge just baked in where we need a character and it was one of our key traits since after 3rd edition.
The fact of the matter is that a lotta codex creep has happened in between our codex release and now. Several of the special rules we got became more wide spread or others got vastly improved versions. It's curious that a handful of lists are actually doing well in the tourney scene, though a few of them seem to really be hanging on the fact that the Deathskulls trait is massively overloaded. Hopefully whenever we get our book (pleaaaase GW let it be early to mid next year) they'll even out the power between the klans and bring the ork powerlevel up to standard.
I just started playing 9th edition this weekend. A couple of 500 point games, went 2-1. Both my opponents are marines and the +1 wound on them is really troubling for my ork boyz in CC.
I also had a few unfortunate moments were PK's wounded for one damage and that felt underwhelming.
Grotz seem like trash.
Are PK's out right now? Are boyz still using Slugga/Choppa?
Slugga choppa is the go to but shoota can work if there ur style and ya killsaw cost the same as pk but are just better. It will be a consistent 2 damage as well
We get reroll on any of the charge dice which is very good and Waagh! does what´s expected; lets us charge better. It feels silly complaining about that imho.
We need some points and subfaction adjustments over a slew on combat enhancing rules. Deff Dreads are over costed compared to Imps, Kulturs are iffy, but in all we are ok. WE are hordy, we are good at melee and there´s a bit of quirky randomness.
We need some points and subfaction adjustments over a slew on combat enhancing rules. Deff Dreads are over costed compared to Imps, Kulturs are iffy, but in all we are ok. WE are hordy, we are good at melee and there´s a bit of quirky randomness.
Imps dreads are a problem not ours. 100ppm for a walker sounds about right, if not even cheap. 340 points also feels right for a naught, while kanz should be ok at 50-60 but need a better profile. Stompa is one of the few models in the ork line that is overcosted. Most of other units that don't work aren't overcosted, they just need better rules.
Nauts could easily come down by 50 points or so. They aren't horrible, but compare poorly to other units with similar offensive abilities like redemptors. Another path, one that I would prefer, is actually making them worth that many points by adding some rules.
Rismonite wrote: I just started playing 9th edition this weekend. A couple of 500 point games, went 2-1. Both my opponents are marines and the +1 wound on them is really troubling for my ork boyz in CC.
I also had a few unfortunate moments were PK's wounded for one damage and that felt underwhelming.
Grotz seem like trash.
Are PK's out right now? Are boyz still using Slugga/Choppa?
I always go Killsaw over Powerklaw, the pts are the same, the Killsaw is AP4 and it reliably does 2 damage. Now if we get the Powerfist/Chainfist change we would probably all move back to Powerklaws to keep the 2 damage with Meganobz still being dual Killsaws for the extra attack. For my Boyz im a big fan of Shootas but that all depends on your Clan. Im Evil Sunz, so I can advance and shoot with no penalty, move quicker to get into range and generally get a turn or 2 more output than a mob of Sluggas who do nothing but advance and charge making the already pointless slugga even more pointless on a model that advanes and charges and either kills whatever it locks in combat or dies.
I think someone else on here loves Shoota Boyz and ive seen other suggest a 50/50 split between both weapons. I just pefer Shootas, especially with Da Jump, you can get some dakka in, maybe kill an exposed support character or a small backline unit on a point and still charge. And if you dont make the charge, well atleast you did more than Sluggas. Special weapons wise, I run them naked. Until they do something with Big Shootas I just keep the Boyz cheap as possible, Boss Nobs with either a single or dual Killsaw.
But if you play Goffs or Deathskulls, your better off Slugga and Choppa.
We need some points and subfaction adjustments over a slew on combat enhancing rules. Deff Dreads are over costed compared to Imps, Kulturs are iffy, but in all we are ok. WE are hordy, we are good at melee and there´s a bit of quirky randomness.
Imps dreads are a problem not ours. 100ppm for a walker sounds about right, if not even cheap. 340 points also feels right for a naught, while kanz should be ok at 50-60 but need a better profile. Stompa is one of the few models in the ork line that is overcosted. Most of other units that don't work aren't overcosted, they just need better rules.
Well at a time our dreads were pretty much the same, we were better at combat they were better at shooting, but toughness and speed was the same. In 8th it was kind of the same still but then with things like Shock Assault, Duty Eternal and synergies with Captains/Lieutenants/Techmarines the gap between the two widened until where we are today. We are 15-5pts cheaper than a bog standard Dreadnought and we are vastly worse. Deff Dreads are ok if we dont have a comparison to make, Ill still run them. But in the arms races they are lacking, but thats an 8th ed to 9th ed Codex thing.
Now Nauts are expensive, I agree 100% with Jid. If we look at a Redemptor Dread he kind of does everything a Gorkanaut does but better, yeah he isnt toughness 8 or holds 6 models, but he is 1/3rd the cost, shoots better, does close combat just aswell to multi wound models and vehicles/monsters, plus with Duty Eternal and 13 wounds he is deceiptively tough and can still be Obscured. Id like the Morka to atleast be BS4 standard (along with all Mek units) the Grogklaw KJ to be standard (we are seeing D3+3 become the norm for all these big vehicles/monsters CC weapons) and a nice 50pts drop. I dont know if it should be Titanic, a Land Raider isnt? And they roughly in the same weight class.
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Scactha wrote: We get reroll on any of the charge dice which is very good and Waagh! does what´s expected; lets us charge better. It feels silly complaining about that imho.
We need some points and subfaction adjustments over a slew on combat enhancing rules. Deff Dreads are over costed compared to Imps, Kulturs are iffy, but in all we are ok. WE are hordy, we are good at melee and there´s a bit of quirky randomness.
I dont think its silly to want for improvements and changes, settling for fine doesnt make it good. We are seeing with GW that they are doing more than just points adjustments in 9th. They are giving each army more personality, whether that is Doctrine, Protocols, Contagions, Tides, etc. Having Waaagh! evolve in to a turn based momentum style ability is cool and thematic, it doesnt mean we have to loose advance or charge or 'Ere We Go! If we look at the directions they took Orruks in AoS then I think we might get something simular. Ironjaws kept Eager for Battle (+1 to Charge), Smashing and Bashing (If an IJ unit kills an enemy unit the closest IJ unit imediately fights without interruption), gained Mad as Hell (if damage was dealt to an IJs unit and they are more than 9" away from the enemy then they move D6" in any direction at the end of the phase) and then their Waaagh! got reworked. Or you can go for the Big Waaagh! allegience and gain a Waaagh! gauge that you fill up and more stuff happens
4WP - Zog 'em: Its the Mad as Hell rule before.
6WP - Zap 'em: Better casting.
8WP - Get 'em: Eager to battle rule.
12WP - Laugh at 'em: 6+++.
16WP - Smash 'em: +1 to hit in melee.
20WP - Bash 'em: +1 to wound in melee.
24WP - WAAAGH!: +1 attack to all Orruk units within 24" of the general when he uses the Big Waaagh! command ability.
These abilites are cumulative, but Zap 'em and WAAAGH! drains the gauge by a certain amount.You gain Waaagh! Power through characters, charging, being in melee, number of models.
That feels like a thematic and powerful representation of what a Waaagh! is, the 40k version is just a wet fart in comparison. I know comparing stuff isnt allowed in the rules, but probably not a lot of 40k players know what their fantasy counterparts get and its good to see what they get and how GW could adapt it for us.
Now Nauts are expensive, I agree 100% with Jid. If we look at a Redemptor Dread he kind of does everything a Gorkanaut does but better, yeah he isnt toughness 8 or holds 6 models, but he is 1/3rd the cost, shoots better, does close combat just aswell to multi wound models and vehicles/monsters, plus with Duty Eternal and 13 wounds he is deceiptively tough and can still be Obscured. Id like the Morka to atleast be BS4 standard (along with all Mek units) the Grogklaw KJ to be standard (we are seeing D3+3 become the norm for all these big vehicles/monsters CC weapons) and a nice 50pts drop. I dont know if it should be Titanic, a Land Raider isnt? And they roughly in the same weight class.
For what they do yes, they're a bit overcosted. For a 75£ model that is as big as knight they aren't, other models that size and price cost many more points. Nauts need to be improved eventually, not to be cheaper.
Last thing I want is to bring more models to the battlefield. Current army size for standard games seems appropriate to me, one of the best things of 9th edition was the points hikes.
With the buffs you propose, including the points drop, a Land Raider should be 150 points then. And a Battlewagon around 80-100. I'd settle with 24W, maybe a Duty Eternal equivalent or some self repair ability, and slighly better killyness for a 350 points model. 13W for the equivalent of a knight (model wise) wouldn't make any sense.
Redemptors should be much more expensive, just like several other marines units. Comparisons with SM overpowered stuff is always misleading, "fixing" underperforming models by elevating them to imperial counterparts is the opposite of fixing, it just creates more overpowered units.
Now Nauts are expensive, I agree 100% with Jid. If we look at a Redemptor Dread he kind of does everything a Gorkanaut does but better, yeah he isnt toughness 8 or holds 6 models, but he is 1/3rd the cost, shoots better, does close combat just aswell to multi wound models and vehicles/monsters, plus with Duty Eternal and 13 wounds he is deceiptively tough and can still be Obscured. Id like the Morka to atleast be BS4 standard (along with all Mek units) the Grogklaw KJ to be standard (we are seeing D3+3 become the norm for all these big vehicles/monsters CC weapons) and a nice 50pts drop. I dont know if it should be Titanic, a Land Raider isnt? And they roughly in the same weight class.
For what they do yes, they're a bit overcosted. For a 75£ model that is as big as knight they aren't, other models that size and price cost many more points. Nauts need to be improved eventually, not to be cheaper.
Last thing I want is to bring more models to the battlefield. Current army size for standard games seems appropriate to me, one of the best things of 9th edition was the points hikes.
With the buffs you propose, including the points drop, a Land Raider should be 150 points then. And a Battlewagon around 80-100. I'd settle with 24W, maybe a Duty Eternal equivalent or some self repair ability, and slighly better killyness for a 350 points model. 13W for the equivalent of a knight (model wise) wouldn't make any sense.
Redemptors should be much more expensive, just like several other marines units. Comparisons with SM overpowered stuff is always misleading, "fixing" underperforming models by elevating them to imperial counterparts is the opposite of fixing, it just creates more overpowered units.
I never said a Naut should be 150pts or a Battlewagon 80-100pts. 50pts is a fine adjustment to a Naut. A Redemptor is a 175-180pt walker that is just flat out better in nearly aspect of combat than a Naut and as Tulun said GW deems it if SM are the thing we must compare to and right now they are being the predominant 9th ed codex. A Land Raider is neither a Naut or a Redemptor and has its own problems and a Battlewagon again isnt in the same field as the Nauts. 340pts for a Naut is obscene, it doesnt shoot all too well and it isnt durable, then its transport capacity is pretty negligible. 60pts more you get a Knight Gallant with 6 more wounds an Invun vs shooting, is Titanic, fights better and is quicker. The Naut is in a weird spot, it has guns but it isnt very good with them. It fights in CC but its better at killing infantry than vehicles/monsters (again a Redemptor is better at this than a Gorka). It has a transport capacity but not big enough to carry anything of note. Its relatively tough, but its slow and cant be Obscured (and advancing and charging means it cant fire its main gun). So to get the most out of either variant you need CP to deepstrike it and CP for its KJ. Not exactly amazing in my book, you have to jump through a lot of hoops with a bit of luck to get some value out of it.
God knows how long itll take for CA to come out, it could be spring it could be winter and will it even do much to SMs at all. I dont think a Naut should ever be 24 wounds or have Duty Eternal, make them unique instead. It suffers from being BS2 with crap guns, who cares about 2 Rokkit Launchas, 4 Big Shootas, a Skorcha/Kustom Mega-Blasta, you take the Naut due to its main gun and CC prowess and it isnt that great at both of those these days. Using CP pregame to make something viable and how it should be to begin with isnt a good system to go off.
Weapons need improving, core faction rules need tweaking or changing as we have seen for the 9e Codexes so far. Im not asking for a 100pt Battlewagon, but 50pts off a Naut is fine, that brings it to 290pts and with some changes to its weapons I think its good, with it being BS2 and only 18 wounds that cant be Obscured. Not exactly game breaking when it can still get destroyed fairly easy in a single turn.
I disagree, 340 points for both nauts are already fair, both are already decent at least.
The things you mentioned, like redemptors or knight gallant should be 100+ points more expensive, that's my point. Those are all undercosted units and the solution isn't to make anything else undercosted as well.
I'm also against the idea of bringing a legion of models on the table and I praised 9th price hikes. A model as huge (and expensive moneywise) as a naut should cost a lot, and worth a lot. It shouldn't be some sort of distraction carnifex, that's the role for dreads.
"GW has to decide if SM are the thing you balance against". I think SM will always be the main faction in the game, the dudes all the other players need to counter. GW don't want other factions to be exactly on par with them, but to counter them in some different ways: I don't think we should have the equivalent of redemptors, but cheaper and less effective walkers (dreads) and knights equivalent big walkers (nauts). The equivalent of redemptors are those walkers from FW, something in between dreads and nauts.
You don't need to look at places where the grass is more ultramrine blue. If we can agree that both the KBB and the scrapjet are decently costed, a naut is simply too expensive in comparison.
Whenever you have to take the decision whether you take 3 buggies or one naut, the buggies always win out.
Blackie wrote: I disagree, 340 points for both nauts are already fair, both are already decent at least.
The things you mentioned, like redemptors or knight gallant should be 100+ points more expensive, that's my point. Those are all undercosted units and the solution isn't to make anything else undercosted as well.
I'm also against the idea of bringing a legion of models on the table and I praised 9th price hikes. A model as huge (and expensive moneywise) as a naut should cost a lot, and worth a lot. It shouldn't be some sort of distraction carnifex, that's the role for dreads.
"GW has to decide if SM are the thing you balance against". I think SM will always be the main faction in the game, the dudes all the other players need to counter. GW don't want other factions to be exactly on par with them, but to counter them in some different ways: I don't think we should have the equivalent of redemptors, but cheaper and less effective walkers (dreads) and knights equivalent big walkers (nauts). The equivalent of redemptors are those walkers from FW, something in between dreads and nauts.
You will change your mind when you will look at the profile of 18w tyranid beasts (that is both hireodule variants and the dimachaeron) in the FW book that just came out. Nids are easier to compare to orks than SM (also an NPC faction). Nauts should indeed go down at the very least by 50 points. Mork has the KFF, Gork has the 3d6 charge strat, so they each have their own thing (they also have the two CC attack modes, one to clear infantry, the other to clear SM dreadnoughts, new DG disgustingly resilient stuff and other "-1 damage" stuff), but those things ain't worth that much.
Jidmah wrote: You don't need to look at places where the grass is more ultramrine blue. If we can agree that both the KBB and the scrapjet are decently costed, a naut is simply too expensive in comparison.
Whenever you have to take the decision whether you take 3 buggies or one naut, the buggies always win out.
With the current stats yes, if you look at the models then no. A naut should definitely worth 3 or 4 buggies, maybe even 5. If it's not, the answer isn't to make it cheaper but to make it better.
KBB and scrapjets are also very good units, IMHO even cheap, not just "decently costed".
You will change your mind when you will look at the profile of 18w tyranid beasts (that is both hireodule variants and the dimachaeron) in the FW book that just came out. Nids are easier to compare to orks than SM (also an NPC faction). Nauts should indeed go down at the very least by 50 points. Mork has the KFF, Gork has the 3d6 charge strat, so they each have their own thing (they also have the two CC attack modes, one to clear infantry, the other to clear SM dreadnoughts, new DG disgustingly resilient stuff and other "-1 damage" stuff), but those things ain't worth that much.
Nah, I prefer a naut as a very powerful and/or resilient model, not just a discount knight equivalent that is overperformed by its imperial counterpart in any possible way. I'd like a model that is actually close to a knight in terms of effectiveness. A bit cheaper and a bit more unrealiable, not 50% cheaper though.
Jidmah wrote: You don't need to look at places where the grass is more ultramrine blue. If we can agree that both the KBB and the scrapjet are decently costed, a naut is simply too expensive in comparison.
Whenever you have to take the decision whether you take 3 buggies or one naut, the buggies always win out.
With the current stats yes, if you look at the models then no. A naut should definitely worth 3 or 4 buggies, maybe even 5. If it's not, the answer isn't to make it cheaper but to make it better.
KBB and scrapjets are also very good units, IMHO even cheap, not just "decently costed".
You will change your mind when you will look at the profile of 18w tyranid beasts (that is both hireodule variants and the dimachaeron) in the FW book that just came out. Nids are easier to compare to orks than SM (also an NPC faction). Nauts should indeed go down at the very least by 50 points. Mork has the KFF, Gork has the 3d6 charge strat, so they each have their own thing (they also have the two CC attack modes, one to clear infantry, the other to clear SM dreadnoughts, new DG disgustingly resilient stuff and other "-1 damage" stuff), but those things ain't worth that much.
Nah, I prefer a naut as a very powerful and/or resilient model, not just a discount knight equivalent that is overperformed by its imperial counterpart in any possible way. I'd like a model that is actually close to a knight in terms of effectiveness. A bit cheaper and a bit more unrealiable, not 50% cheaper though.
We will never have a Knight equivalent in a Naut so Ill have to strongly disagree. A Naut will always be inferior to any imperial counterpart because 1. its BS will always be worse. 2. It will never have the durability of a Knight and 3. It will never have the mobility of a Knight. They are in two different weight classes... A Naut is in the same category as a Land Raider (one is tracked one is a walker) with it being a heavy assault transport, it isnt a Super Heavy. 50pts off 340pts isnt 50% cheaper, that as a bit of an exaggeration... thats a mere 14.71%. 170pts is 50%.
They can make it powerful and resilient but it will never live up to an Imperial Knight. Both variants have pretty abyssmal shooting with their small arms and their claw attack is inferior to things smaller than it (Redemptor) and things bigger than it (Knight). Things can get improved and lowered in cost. 50pts isnt world breaking, its not gonna make you field Legions of models but as Orks we should outnumber our foe (except Nids). The Nauts just arent Knights and the divide between the two is fairly large.
The things that make Knights strong is their access to Relics/Traits/Stratagems. What do the Nauts have? They have to pay a CP for a KJ to even be what they should be from the beginning and that is still inferior to a Knight.
A land raider is a transport with some firepower, a naut is a different thing. Land raider is basically an empowered battlewagon. Nauts are worse knights.
I'm not saying they should be excatly as good as knights, but closer to them than they might be compared to land raiders. Nauts aren't super heavies because GW said so, they definitely look more super heavies than "just" land raiders with klaws. Same height, same base, similar aesthetic. I can't understand why you're so inclined to accept points reductions but not changes in units' datasheets.
A redemptor dread costs (in money) half the price of a naut, while knights are just a 20-25% more expensive than nauts. They can't cost twice in terms of points.
A flat comparison between a naut and a knight is also disingenuous because nauts are part of an army with a huge line of models, knights are a skew army. I don't think it's so absurd to ask for a unit that worths 350-400 points considering the nature of the model and the army roster.
If you make nauts 50ppm cheaper than how they are now then several other units will look overcosted in comparison and need points reductions. We'll be back to 8th points costs.
Anyway I don't want to derail the thread, this debate isn't about tactics so I'll end it here.
I hope they update the damage profile for the Nauts close combat weapon profile, Crush, so instead of dealing D6 damage, it should deal 3+D3 damage, like the new stats for the Mega Dreads klaw.
It kinda makes no sense such a huge being would deal 1 damage. So i like the idea of the 3+D3 for a minimum of 4.
A land raider is a transport with some firepower, a naut is a different thing. Land raider is basically an empowered battlewagon. Nauts are worse knights.
I'm not saying they should be excatly as good as knights, but closer to them than they might be compared to land raiders. Nauts aren't super heavies because GW said so, they definitely look more super heavies than "just" land raiders with klaws. Same height, same base, similar aesthetic. I can't understand why you're so inclined to accept points reductions but not changes in units' datasheets.
A redemptor dread costs (in money) half the price of a naut, while knights are just a 20-25% more expensive than nauts. They can't cost twice in terms of points.
A flat comparison between a naut and a knight is also disingenuous because nauts are part of an army with a huge line of models, knights are a skew army. I don't think it's so absurd to ask for a unit that worths 350-400 points considering the nature of the model and the army roster.
If you make nauts 50ppm cheaper than how they are now then several other units will look overcosted in comparison and need points reductions. We'll be back to 8th points costs.
Anyway I don't want to derail the thread, this debate isn't about tactics so I'll end it here.
Well.
A naut is the exact same buying price as a Stompa, yet the Stompa is closer related to a Knight than a Naut.
Yet the Knights are more expensive. It wouldnt hurt the Naut to be cheaper than the Stompa, price wise (in real life money).There is a massive difference in the ppm between the Naut and Stompa, yet no difference in real life money.
I feel like the Naut should be a bit cheaper in real life money, and the stompa either the same or a tiny bit more expensive (not that i want more expensive but if we look at a comparison between ppm and real life money).
If 3 buggies do the job better than a Naut then thats a bit of a problem i feel that should be addressed.
A land raider is a transport with some firepower, a naut is a different thing. Land raider is basically an empowered battlewagon. Nauts are worse knights.
I'm not saying they should be excatly as good as knights, but closer to them than they might be compared to land raiders. Nauts aren't super heavies because GW said so, they definitely look more super heavies than "just" land raiders with klaws. Same height, same base, similar aesthetic. I can't understand why you're so inclined to accept points reductions but not changes in units' datasheets.
A redemptor dread costs (in money) half the price of a naut, while knights are just a 20-25% more expensive than nauts. They can't cost twice in terms of points.
A flat comparison between a naut and a knight is also disingenuous because nauts are part of an army with a huge line of models, knights are a skew army. I don't think it's so absurd to ask for a unit that worths 350-400 points considering the nature of the model and the army roster.
If you make nauts 50ppm cheaper than how they are now then several other units will look overcosted in comparison and need points reductions. We'll be back to 8th points costs.
Anyway I don't want to derail the thread, this debate isn't about tactics so I'll end it here.
A Naut is closer to a Land Raider than a Knight. Being a Walker no longer exists in 9e and the same for 8e. In the past there was a clear divide between a tank and a walker, like turning arcs, close combat, how the damage table effected them and how they interacted with types of terrain. Thats not a thing now. A Land Raider is a 16 wound, toughness 8 heavy assault transport. A Naut is a 18 wound, toughness 8 heavy assault vehicle/transport. Neither a Land Raider or a Naut is close to a Super Heavy like a Knight, they both lack the movement, added durability and the firepower.
GW in their infinite wisdom designed a Naut needed to transport 6 models, why who knows, 6 models for Orks is pretty mediocre because thats either 3 Meganobz, 5 Nobz and a Character or some form of Specialist unit like Burnas/Bustas/Flashgitz, all of which suck in it and further more when this thing dies, which it will, these are all high value models to be loosing when it eventually implodes. I dont know about you but I dont want to loose 1 or Manz to an explosion, especially when the squad size is so small. So we pay for the transport in the models cost, even if we never use it. 6 is fine if your an Elite army like SM with Razorbacks/Impulsors or with Harlies and DE with Venoms and Star Weavers.
Not everything in 9th went up in pts when the CA2020 came out, others sky rocketed for not reason like DE/Admech. A Gorka was 311pts in 8th ed at the tail end, and that was still viewed as overcosted by the community (a Gallant was 372pts, a Land Raider 277pts, which increased a whopping 8pts in CA2020 and then went up an earth shattering 0pts in the codex where as our poor Gorka went up 29pts because?). Some armies still have units that cost their 8th ed versions or just a hair off the amount and those costs arent really wallet and game breaking. I know some people that lost like a unit but my Admech lost 300pts.
I see this argument a lot about real life money. It doesnt really have an impact on the meta. I know some on who has 30 serberys Raides in the Admech tactica, I own 6. £35 for 3... If someone is willing to chase the meta they will fork out the cost, and thats quite common in GTs, people change armies each month to keep up with the arms race. A Redemptor being £40 doesnt mean much when it still does more than a Naut. Our Mek Gunz are crazy priced but that isnt reflected in the units pts and never has been.
Id rather the Naut be a unique hybrid rather than a "cheap" and crappy counterpart to a Knight. It has a transport cap that should be capitalised on, give it the same ability the Impulsor has where it can disembard its cargo after its moved or they can deploy right into the thick of melee that the Naut is engaged in without it classing as falling back.
They could do loads to it if they are creative but I dont want it to be Knight like because it will always be outclassed. Instead define its role better within the Ork codex. It suffers from doing a bit of everything which, unfortunately, drives up its cost and as others have said, it is overcosted, it was overcosted in 8th no matter how man times they kept dropping it. The thing shouldnt be over 300pts period. The Morka? Maybe if it has a KFF.
Yeah this is all off topic but atm there isnt much for us to go off, every 8th ed Codex is in the same spot which is waiting. We know the meta is MEQ, its been that way for a long while even in the last days of 8th. So I think we are all just venting and brainstorming with our other fellow Warbosses until our Codex or Campaign book drops and gives us something that is more suited for 9th and how it plays.
The major thing I am wary of in giving Nauts the TITANIC keyword is that GW is likely to do what they did to Necron Monoliths and just make them LoW when they really don't need to be. Not only will missing out on Klan Traits in the LoW auxiliary slot reduce their potency, but forcing them into a SHV detachment means you'll only ever be able to use them in a walker-heavy archetype rather than the flexibility of having a Morkanaut in several styles of army.
They definitely need a few tweaks to make Nauts a bit more competitive, but let's not get carried away.
If 3 buggies do the job better than a Naut then thats a bit of a problem i feel that should be addressed.
3 Scrapjets, 27 T6 4+ wounds, put out 36 Big shoota shots, 18 at BS4 and 18 at BS5. They also get 6D3 Rokkitz and 3 Wing missiles. In CC they get 12 S8 -2AP D3 dmg attacks, they also get 3 chances at a 4+ to inflict D3 mortal wounds to a unit on the charge.
A Morkanaut which is about the same price (10pts off) gets 12 Big shoota shots, 2 rokkitz, 1 KMB shot and 3D3 Kustom Mega Zappa Shots (KMK on steroids). It gets 4 or 12 attacks in CC hitting on 3s. The 12 attacks have a similar profile to the Scrapjets who hit on 4s.
So in ranged combat scrapjets are just better. They have enough small caliber dakka to handle hordes and relatively tough infantry, and their Rokkit kannons are great for dealing with NUMarines and Gravis Marines, the Wing missiles are great for pot shotting vehicles.
In CC the Morkanut is better, but if the Scrapjets get their mortal wounds off they are better.
And most importantly, the Morkanaut has 18w at T8 with a 3+. Sounds tougher, except its on a single model which makes it actually weaker.
If 3 buggies do the job better than a Naut then thats a bit of a problem i feel that should be addressed.
3 Scrapjets, 27 T6 4+ wounds, put out 36 Big shoota shots, 18 at BS4 and 18 at BS5. They also get 6D3 Rokkitz and 3 Wing missiles. In CC they get 12 S8 -2AP D3 dmg attacks, they also get 3 chances at a 4+ to inflict D3 mortal wounds to a unit on the charge.
A Morkanaut which is about the same price (10pts off) gets 12 Big shoota shots, 2 rokkitz, 1 KMB shot and 3D3 Kustom Mega Zappa Shots (KMK on steroids). It gets 4 or 12 attacks in CC hitting on 3s. The 12 attacks have a similar profile to the Scrapjets who hit on 4s.
So in ranged combat scrapjets are just better. They have enough small caliber dakka to handle hordes and relatively tough infantry, and their Rokkit kannons are great for dealing with NUMarines and Gravis Marines, the Wing missiles are great for pot shotting vehicles.
In CC the Morkanut is better, but if the Scrapjets get their mortal wounds off they are better.
And most importantly, the Morkanaut has 18w at T8 with a 3+. Sounds tougher, except its on a single model which makes it actually weaker.
The Scrapjets can also be in several different locations at once versus the Morkanaut being in one spot, limiting your board control in comparison and how Scrapjets can potentially contest objectives/get linebreaker.
If 3 buggies do the job better than a Naut then thats a bit of a problem i feel that should be addressed.
3 Scrapjets, 27 T6 4+ wounds, put out 36 Big shoota shots, 18 at BS4 and 18 at BS5. They also get 6D3 Rokkitz and 3 Wing missiles. In CC they get 12 S8 -2AP D3 dmg attacks, they also get 3 chances at a 4+ to inflict D3 mortal wounds to a unit on the charge.
A Morkanaut which is about the same price (10pts off) gets 12 Big shoota shots, 2 rokkitz, 1 KMB shot and 3D3 Kustom Mega Zappa Shots (KMK on steroids). It gets 4 or 12 attacks in CC hitting on 3s. The 12 attacks have a similar profile to the Scrapjets who hit on 4s.
So in ranged combat scrapjets are just better. They have enough small caliber dakka to handle hordes and relatively tough infantry, and their Rokkit kannons are great for dealing with NUMarines and Gravis Marines, the Wing missiles are great for pot shotting vehicles.
In CC the Morkanut is better, but if the Scrapjets get their mortal wounds off they are better.
And most importantly, the Morkanaut has 18w at T8 with a 3+. Sounds tougher, except its on a single model which makes it actually weaker.
Wouldn't the scrapjets be superior in melee as well since you can pay 1 cp and double their attacks as well as give them even more movement in fight phase? Granted the nauts get a strat too but I don't remember any of them matching up to the boost the skrapjet Kustom job provides.
On most of what you guys said i agree, but they dont do better in melee.
The Scrapjet hits of 4s the Gorkanaut on 3s (if not injured too much).
Further more the Smash characteristics, if you use that, has 18 attacks at fullest (6x3 = 18), the Scrapjet has a max of 12 attacks for all 3.
The Scrapjet only gets to fight twice i believe, if what ever it fought died and thus consolidates.
So if you went for a melee force you get more power from the Gorkanaut, but i agree on the firepower otherwise. And also you cant be multiple places at once with a gorkanaut, thats a point too.
On most of what you guys said i agree, but they dont do better in melee.
The Scrapjet hits of 4s the Gorkanaut on 3s (if not injured too much).
Further more the Smash characteristics, if you use that, has 18 attacks at fullest (6x3 = 18), the Scrapjet has a max of 12 attacks for all 3.
The Scrapjet only gets to fight twice i believe, if what ever it fought died and thus consolidates.
So if you went for a melee force you get more power from the Gorkanaut, but i agree on the firepower otherwise. And also you cant be multiple places at once with a gorkanaut, thats a point too.
Scrapjets can always fight twice, just like Khorne Berserkers, so it's not just when they consolidate into a new unit (which they wouldn't be able to fight anyways if they charged that turn and didn't nominate them as the other charge target). So realistically, Scrapjets have a total of 24 attacks rather than the 12 you've posted down. It is possible for your opponent to counter attack and kill one before their second round of attacks though, which is the only real downside they have comparatively to the Gorkanaut.
For reference, I compared a Morkanaut to 3 scrapjets, not the Gorkanaut.
I also left off all strats and Kustom Jobs because than we get into some fun territory that I didn't want to have to math hammer out. For instance, the Morkanaut can get Sparklybitz and depending on kulture, shoot twice, so all its shooting gets significantly better where as the Scrapjets can get the aforementioned Corkscrews which makes them really good in CC (Fight twice for 1CP)
SemperMortis wrote: For reference, I compared a Morkanaut to 3 scrapjets, not the Gorkanaut.
I also left off all strats and Kustom Jobs because than we get into some fun territory that I didn't want to have to math hammer out. For instance, the Morkanaut can get Sparklybitz and depending on kulture, shoot twice, so all its shooting gets significantly better where as the Scrapjets can get the aforementioned Corkscrews which makes them really good in CC (Fight twice for 1CP)
I don't believe the Morkanaut could ever shoot twice outside of the old Dread WAAAGH! Vigilus Detachment, which is basically outdated at this point, since the Bad Moonz strat only affects Infantry.
i'd be surprised if they make nauts LoW. They keep stuffing the idea of multiple nauts down our throat, if anything they'd do something to incentivize bringing multiples.
Nauts arent a knight. Theyve never been depicted as being as big or mean as a knight, more of a "budget knight" where theyre pretty dang close but still obviously inferior for various reasons.
Monoliths going to LoW is only weird because its a pre-existing unit that wasnt one before. If it was a brand new unit there wouldnt be anybody scoffing that its a LoW (scoffing that its not that great of one yes but not that its a LoW in general).
The only way they could get away with making them a LoW is either give us a way to field them with kultures despite the detachment issues (both cost and aux restriction), which they definitely wouldnt do, or buff it to knight status...which doesnt make sense. Nauts are a fair bit smaller so them being equals is kinda odd, especially when usually comparative ork stuff is oddly larger than what theyre being compared to traditionally.
Unfortunately, they either need to get cheaper, or stronger.
Stronger probably means LoW.
At 18 wounds, they are functionally always going to be a B or C tier unit at best, though, unless they get like a 4++ and ramshackle. Damage going up is not going to bode well for these nauts, and 18 wounds is by far the worst wound count you can be.
I'd rather they make them LoW than keep them like they are now, or put them at 16 wounds with some other adjustments, I just doubt that makes much sense.
SemperMortis wrote: For reference, I compared a Morkanaut to 3 scrapjets, not the Gorkanaut.
I also left off all strats and Kustom Jobs because than we get into some fun territory that I didn't want to have to math hammer out. For instance, the Morkanaut can get Sparklybitz and depending on kulture, shoot twice, so all its shooting gets significantly better where as the Scrapjets can get the aforementioned Corkscrews which makes them really good in CC (Fight twice for 1CP)
The Morkanaut cant shoot twice anymore, Dreadwaaagh! and its Kustom Ammo strat is no longer allowed to Tournament play and Badmoons only effect Infantry even though the riches members of the Clan would own a Gorka/Morka, but yano GW couldnt have had Showin' Off be too good and have it increase in CP for certain units/PL (5 Lootas shooting twice costs the same CP as 15 Lootas ).
Even with Sparkly Bits id still say its worse than 3 Scrapjets. They move quicker (and can actually advance and fire all their weapons though you still dont want to unless your ES) with more board prescience due to being 3 individual models, they have 18 BS4 Str 5 shots instead of 12, then ontop of that 18 BS5 Str 5 shots, 6D3 BS5 Str 8 AP2 D3 shots and 3 Str 8 AP2 D3 shots that will most likely hit on 4s because why arent you targeting a vehicle instead of 2 BS Rokkits, a KMB and 3D3 Kustom Mega-Zzappa shots. Then they get the chance to cause 3D3 MWs between them ontop of 12 WS4 Str 8 AP2 DD3 CC attacks.
Individually sure they arent as tough or killy, but 3 stacks up, they break up debuffs better due to being 3 units of 1, can get better angles of fire, can be Obscured unlike the poor Morka and they dont really care about transporting 6 models. What the Morka has going for it is the KFF if you take it and somewhat better combat. The MTSJs dont need to pay a CP to be viable, but Korkscrew is more impactful (a second activation with all the pile ins and consolidates associate with it) for that 1CP instead of Sparkly Bits.
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Vineheart01 wrote: i'd be surprised if they make nauts LoW. They keep stuffing the idea of multiple nauts down our throat, if anything they'd do something to incentivize bringing multiples.
Nauts arent a knight. Theyve never been depicted as being as big or mean as a knight, more of a "budget knight" where theyre pretty dang close but still obviously inferior for various reasons.
Monoliths going to LoW is only weird because its a pre-existing unit that wasnt one before. If it was a brand new unit there wouldnt be anybody scoffing that its a LoW (scoffing that its not that great of one yes but not that its a LoW in general).
The only way they could get away with making them a LoW is either give us a way to field them with kultures despite the detachment issues (both cost and aux restriction), which they definitely wouldnt do, or buff it to knight status...which doesnt make sense. Nauts are a fair bit smaller so them being equals is kinda odd, especially when usually comparative ork stuff is oddly larger than what theyre being compared to traditionally.
Yeah making the Monolith a LoW was so strange and something I didnt agree with. Its THE iconic Necron vehicle, before all the Arks, Barges, Scythes were even conceived. The Monolith was already suffering in 8th, like Land Raiders and to a degree our Nauts, and they decided to shunt it into a LoW force org slot, practically sealing the deal. So odd.
If Nauts EVER became LoWs then I hope they get Deffdread Treatment and come in squadrons of 1-3 Morkas/Gorkas (taking either in the 3) and then becoming seperate after deployment. 1 Naut should never be a LoW on its on, it cant tango with any of the big boys and it just doesnt impact the board as much as a Baneblade/Knight/Lord of Skulls (although neither does our Stompa!!! ).
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tulun wrote: Unfortunately, they either need to get cheaper, or stronger.
Stronger probably means LoW.
At 18 wounds, they are functionally always going to be a B or C tier unit at best, though, unless they get like a 4++ and ramshackle. Damage going up is not going to bode well for these nauts, and 18 wounds is by far the worst wound count you can be.
I'd rather they make them LoW than keep them like they are now, or put them at 16 wounds with some other adjustments, I just doubt that makes much sense.
Id personally take the 16/17 wounds over keeping 18 and going LoW. Obscuring would help it quite a lot instead of having to rely on deepstriking it and doing Ramming Speed just to get some use out of it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I would also like to see Orks be one of the first armies that get to actually "destroy" terrain, stripping them of qualities. In AoS Mega-Gargants and Ironjaws can basically pick a terrain piece and it looses all abilities because they smash it down (takes a dice roll for ironjaws and its a Command Trait). Having a Naut just bulldoze a Forest or Ruin would be so unique and fluffy for Orks.
On most of what you guys said i agree, but they dont do better in melee.
The Scrapjet hits of 4s the Gorkanaut on 3s (if not injured too much).
Further more the Smash characteristics, if you use that, has 18 attacks at fullest (6x3 = 18), the Scrapjet has a max of 12 attacks for all 3.
The Scrapjet only gets to fight twice i believe, if what ever it fought died and thus consolidates.
So if you went for a melee force you get more power from the Gorkanaut, but i agree on the firepower otherwise. And also you cant be multiple places at once with a gorkanaut, thats a point too.
Scrapjets can always fight twice, just like Khorne Berserkers, so it's not just when they consolidate into a new unit (which they wouldn't be able to fight anyways if they charged that turn and didn't nominate them as the other charge target). So realistically, Scrapjets have a total of 24 attacks rather than the 12 you've posted down. It is possible for your opponent to counter attack and kill one before their second round of attacks though, which is the only real downside they have comparatively to the Gorkanaut.
How can it always attack twice? are we talking the Kustom Job? Because i cant see an inherent ability to fight twice otherwise.
KORKSCREW:
"MEGATRAKK SCRAPJET unit only. The first time this unit finishes a consolidation move in each Fight phase, it can immediately fight again."
According to wahapedia it can only fight twice if it makes a consolidation move, unless there is something i have missed. I see, Explodes, Grot Gunner, and Spiked Ram as inherent abilities.
You always have the option to make a consolidation move in combat from what I understand. You don't need to kill the unit to do so, it's still a part of the fight phase. Kind of like how you always have a pyschic phase even if you don't have a pysker in your army. So if I understand it correctly, you charge, pile in, fight, consolidate (say just a 1/4" closer or even just rotate the skrapjet a bit to be in b2b with more models, still works) then pile in again, fight again, consolidate again, and you're done.
The only way I can think of not getting to fight twice would be if you were physically blocked in and could not move whatsoever, like if someone charged in and tripointed you or something, and even that may not count, I'd need to ask a rules expert on how exactly that would go down.
MrMoustaffa wrote: You always have the option to make a consolidation move in combat from what I understand. You don't need to kill the unit to do so, it's still a part of the fight phase. Kind of like how you always have a pyschic phase even if you don't have a pysker in your army. So if I understand it correctly, you charge, pile in, fight, consolidate (say just a 1/4" closer or even just rotate the skrapjet a bit to be in b2b with more models, still works) then pile in again, fight again, consolidate again, and you're done.
The only way I can think of not getting to fight twice would be if you were physically blocked in and could not move whatsoever, like if someone charged in and tripointed you or something, and even that may not count, I'd need to ask a rules expert on how exactly that would go down.
Im not sure why i assumed you had to kill a unit to be able to consolidate. it even says that a unit has consolidated even if it didnt move if you moved up too close to the enemy. So you still get to fight twice even if you dont move.
Im uncertain at this point if ive played with something needing to die before i can make a consolidation move? hmmm..
I dont know. But i am wrong anyway.
The Scrapjet sure does have two attacks regardless of anything.
Jidmah wrote: From the core rules:
"A model that is already touching an enemy model cannot move, but still counts as having consolidated. "
If you manage to fight, you can always fight a second time.
Yea. i started playing just before 9th got out, so maybe i got confused from the 8th edition rules for a moment there (if thats how it was back then, i somehow recall it being like that).
But that reminds me, i was looking at Flashgits and Kaptain Badrukk, am i correct in assuming that the Kaptain himself, Badrukk, hits on 4s (shooting) but the Kaptain of a flashgits unit hits on 3 with his gitfinda squig (shooting)? That seems awefully odd that a kaptain of a unit hits better than the leader of the freebootaz.
Although Badrukk does have more firepower in his gun so maybe its a balance thing. But still.
Its kinda sad they are heavy weapons and not assault given they are only range 24. It means you are more or less forced to move on turn 1 and thus hit worse, and your enemy will probably target these guys afterwards on their turn.. If it was 36 at least you could perch yourself in a house somewhere and still hit many units. Needing stratagems just to get a proper range is odd. But im not sure about 48 as that would compete too much with Lootas maybe.
Badrukk simply doesn't have the gitfinder wargear, no more reason than that.
Flash gits actually used to be just BS5+ and assault 3, but got +1 to hit for standing still, which was changed to BS4+ and heavy because it's essentially the same, just with less extra rules.
I see this argument a lot about real life money. It doesnt really have an impact on the meta. I know some on who has 30 serberys Raides in the Admech tactica, I own 6. £35 for 3... If someone is willing to chase the meta they will fork out the cost, and thats quite common in GTs, people change armies each month to keep up with the arms race. A Redemptor being £40 doesnt mean much when it still does more than a Naut. Our Mek Gunz are crazy priced but that isnt reflected in the units pts and never has been.
Well, those meta chasers and people that go to GTs are a tiny fraction of the whole player base. People changing armies every year are already uncommon, those who do it every month I don't even think they really exist at all.
And mek gunz are so crazy expensive that pretty much everyone kitbashes or scratches build them. They're another perfect example of a unit that should be 100-120 ppm at least for that price. 40-65ppm and T5 6W was appropriate for old tiny big gunz, but mek gunz should have the profile of buggies or dreads.
About Korkskrew, I'm my experience it's extremely overrated. 1CP for an ability that you may use maybe for one model or none at all. Most of the times you don't want scrapjets in combat, and most of the fights they do they don't need a second wave of attacks. It was a good KJ in 8th when we had like 18+ CPs, but now CPs are extremely limited for our army and although I play scrapjets everytime I don't bother with the upgrade.
Im actually really surprised the Supa Kannon wasnt buffed when Forge world updates came out, I mean except for its range and damage profile, its exactly like Da Boomer.
I think maybe it should keep its str 8 or maybe go to 9, but at the very least it should have -3AP, not -2AP, to make it stand out more, compared to da boomer. And who knows, maybe 3D6, or retain the 2D6 and just get a -3AP would be sufficient with 9 or so strength. Da Boomer can do almost the same (and on a gunwagon, you probably do more damage over all) and thats just 15 points for a kill kannon, and 1 CP for the kustom job. I guess you pay 35 points for a Supa kannon on a kannonwagon (battlewagon is 135, a kannon wagon is 170), but if you were to go for a big trakk with supa kannon its 50 points for a unit hitting on 5s.
Despite costing a bit more, the Supa kannon doesnt necessarily do more damage when the gunwagon gets to throw down 4D6.
Im not sure what you guys think? I just think its -AP at least is too low for its size and regular cost of 50 points under normal circumstances.
Yeah, it's a worse version of Da Boomer basically. I don't understand why this model is even considered aside the desire of playing with the cool FW model.
Da Boomer has more shots, costs 1CP and it's more resilient, Kannonwagon only has more range which is typically irrelevant on current boards.
I see this argument a lot about real life money. It doesnt really have an impact on the meta. I know some on who has 30 serberys Raides in the Admech tactica, I own 6. £35 for 3... If someone is willing to chase the meta they will fork out the cost, and thats quite common in GTs, people change armies each month to keep up with the arms race. A Redemptor being £40 doesnt mean much when it still does more than a Naut. Our Mek Gunz are crazy priced but that isnt reflected in the units pts and never has been.
Well, those meta chasers and people that go to GTs are a tiny fraction of the whole player base. People changing armies every year are already uncommon, those who do it every month I don't even think they really exist at all.
And mek gunz are so crazy expensive that pretty much everyone kitbashes or scratches build them. They're another perfect example of a unit that should be 100-120 ppm at least for that price. 40-65ppm and T5 6W was appropriate for old tiny big gunz, but mek gunz should have the profile of buggies or dreads.
About Korkskrew, I'm my experience it's extremely overrated. 1CP for an ability that you may use maybe for one model or none at all. Most of the times you don't want scrapjets in combat, and most of the fights they do they don't need a second wave of attacks. It was a good KJ in 8th when we had like 18+ CPs, but now CPs are extremely limited for our army and although I play scrapjets everytime I don't bother with the upgrade.
Mek Gunz would be dead at 100-120pts... Its 5-6 Grots manning a ramshackle artillery piece that is dropped off by the Boyz for them to put together and operate. How they are now is absolutely fine, having them in the same ball park as Buggies and Dreads in terms of statlines is a huge stretch.
The power of the korkscrew isnt in its melee lethality, but the movement that you get from it. 9th is very much a movement game, games are won and lost by armies dominating the board, scoring/denying Primaries and being aggressive and up in peoples lines messing with their plans. And as John Lennon said on the latest AoW batrep between Necrons and Admech, if someone wants to reach your lines they will find a way, which is something ive said for ages.
And the Korkscrew provides this by surfing combat. It might have a chunky base but getting the extra potential 6" of movement from an additional pile in and consolidate is big. That could mean the difference of contesting an objective, nabbing one that is poorly defended, tapping the opponents valuable shooting units in melee (say Eradicators or a vehicle that cant fall back and shoot that isnt great blasting into melee), or scoring secondaries like Engage on all Fronts, Line Breaker, and the fact that it happens immediately, yeah I take it every game and Scrapjets do Mork's work for me.
Trading a MTSJ in combat for Primaries/Secondaries is a fair exchange and it doesnt really loose that much in shooting just the Rokkit Kannon, but if its tying up something that would eviscerate your army then thats a win in my book. A potiental 8 powerfist attacks and D3 MWs is nothing to sniff at and you have up to 3 of them on the board that can do this from different locations and not all of them need to be on the board anyway, we have ways to deepstrike or outflank and use Ramming Speed to get better odds of connecting.
Buggy lists dont exactly need CP to begin with, we have very few strats that mesh well with them other than the ones specific to them and a few others like Ramming Speed of Moar Dakka! (the more I use it the less I like it for a 2CP strat that could net you literally nothing)
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Beardedragon wrote: Im actually really surprised the Supa Kannon wasnt buffed when Forge world updates came out, I mean except for its range and damage profile, its exactly like Da Boomer.
I think maybe it should keep its str 8 or maybe go to 9, but at the very least it should have -3AP, not -2AP, to make it stand out more, compared to da boomer. And who knows, maybe 3D6, or retain the 2D6 and just get a -3AP would be sufficient with 9 or so strength. Da Boomer can do almost the same (and on a gunwagon, you probably do more damage over all) and thats just 15 points for a kill kannon, and 1 CP for the kustom job. I guess you pay 35 points for a Supa kannon on a kannonwagon (battlewagon is 135, a kannon wagon is 170), but if you were to go for a big trakk with supa kannon its 50 points for a unit hitting on 5s.
Despite costing a bit more, the Supa kannon doesnt necessarily do more damage when the gunwagon gets to throw down 4D6.
Im not sure what you guys think? I just think its -AP at least is too low for its size and regular cost of 50 points under normal circumstances.
Well you have to think about it in a wider sense. How many Da Boomers can you have? 1. It costs CP. It has to shoot both sets of 2D6 at the same target. The Kannonwagon trades the double shooting for BS4, pretty much infinite range on 9th ed boards (line of sight allowing) and damage 3 over 2. It isnt also limited to 1 per army like Da Boomer. Sure it looses toughness 8 but it is also base 3+.
Againts anything T4 3+ save that doesnt have more than 2 wounds Da Boomer kills on average 2 models if no 6+++ is involved. The Kannonwagon also kills 2. Sure Da Boomer has more potential and you can feed it 2CP to eek more out of it but the Kannonwagon doesnt need CP to begin with and the gun gets more efficient as you start targetting things with 3 or more wounds. Hell Plague Marines with 2 wounds -1 damage, Da Boomer is pretty limp, and it gets worse vs 3 wound Possessed and Blight Lords requiring 3 unsaved wounds to kill one where as the Kannonwagon just needs 2. And Deathguard is swimming in -1 damage now which makes that damage 2 look mighty crap.
Sure if Da Boomer is firing at 20 Warriors youll get more from it but I think id rather have 1 or 2 Kannonwagons instead and not really have to rely on hitting on 5s.
And as a side note the reason it is AP2 is because in prior editions it was AP3 like a Earth Shaker (its competitor) like how the Killkannon was AP 3 like the Battlecannon. AP3 turned in AP2. All the APs got flipped around from 7th to 8th. 1 - 4, 2 - 3, 3 - 2, 4 - 1 and AP 5 and 6 became -. A shoota was AP6 meaning if it wounded a Boy or Gant it bypassed their 6+ save, a Big Shoota was AP5 meaning a Guardsmen died if he was wounded (which a Big Shoota wounded them on 2s). Now all these units get saves with no modifiers making the Shoota and Big Shoota worse vs these targets but remained the same vs Space marines (unless in cover or when they received 2 wounds).
Mek Gunz would be dead at 100-120pts... Its 5-6 Grots manning a ramshackle artillery piece that is dropped off by the Boyz for them to put together and operate. How they are now is absolutely fine, having them in the same ball park as Buggies and Dreads in terms of statlines is a huge stretch.
How they are now means that very few people play with the original models and WAAC meta chasers that field 12-18 Smasha Gunz still exist. For 40 euro an appropriate model could have 8-9W T6 and 2.5-3x the current Mek Gunz's firepower. That's what I'm talking about a 100-120 ppm. They'd be legit units to bring, and not even that unreasonable lore wise: they used to be T7 when GW released them. Basically they'd be an alternative to buggies: more firepower and blast oriented, less mobility and no combat abiltiy. At the moment mek gunz are taken only because they're very cheap points wise, the opposite of being absolutely fine.
The power of the korkscrew isnt in its melee lethality, but the movement that you get from it. 9th is very much a movement game, games are won and lost by armies dominating the board, scoring/denying Primaries and being aggressive and up in peoples lines messing with their plans.
Buggy lists dont exactly need CP to begin with, we have very few strats that mesh well with them other than the ones specific to them and a few others like Ramming Speed of Moar Dakka! (the more I use it the less I like it for a 2CP strat that could net you literally nothing)
I sometimes give the squig KJ to scrapjets, that extra movement is handy and I'll benefit from it even if I don't need to assault. And as you also said the huge bases often messed up with the consolidation move you get from Korkscrew.
Oh, and not everyone plays with full buggy lists, so CPs might get drained too quickly sometimes. I don't for example.
Well you have to think about it in a wider sense. How many Da Boomers can you have? 1. It costs CP. It has to shoot both sets of 2D6 at the same target. The Kannonwagon trades the double shooting for BS4, pretty much infinite range on 9th ed boards (line of sight allowing) and damage 3 over 2. It isnt also limited to 1 per army like Da Boomer. Sure it looses toughness 8 but it is also base 3+.
Againts anything T4 3+ save that doesnt have more than 2 wounds Da Boomer kills on average 2 models if no 6+++ is involved. The Kannonwagon also kills 2. Sure Da Boomer has more potential and you can feed it 2CP to eek more out of it but the Kannonwagon doesnt need CP to begin with and the gun gets more efficient as you start targetting things with 3 or more wounds. Hell Plague Marines with 2 wounds -1 damage, Da Boomer is pretty limp, and it gets worse vs 3 wound Possessed and Blight Lords requiring 3 unsaved wounds to kill one where as the Kannonwagon just needs 2. And Deathguard is swimming in -1 damage now which makes that damage 2 look mighty crap.
Sure if Da Boomer is firing at 20 Warriors youll get more from it but I think id rather have 1 or 2 Kannonwagons instead and not really have to rely on hitting on 5s.
With buggies, planes, bustas, mek gunz ed eventually walkers I don't think I'd even want a second shooting tank. Single Da Boomer is good enough, there's no need to spam identical tanks to get value out of them. Damage output is basically the exact same one of a kannonwagon except the latter is less resilient and it's also not able to split fire equally efficiently. Damage 3 and BS5+ +1 to Hit isn't really better than damage 2 and BS5+ when you have +2D6 more shots and can fire in two batches. Range with current board sizes and line of sight issues doens't matter at all.
I always value being able to soak a few more shots more than gaining a little bonus in the damage output anyway.
The only real advantage of the kannonwagon is the open topped ability but if you put inside it any shooting unit it becomes a huge points sink then.
Keramory wrote: Not that it's amazing, but has anyone had the joy of using a Wartrike to advance/charge a Stompa and a bunch of Naut's into an enemy deployment on t1?
Usually it's the wartrike itself that I send in to tie up important enemy ranged units since he has the automatic 6" advance that he can do once per game. Stompas and Nauts are almost never worth doing the advance and charge bit from a Speedwaaagh! because of all the shooting you miss out on, especially T1. The best people to take advantage of that are either Deff Dreadz/Killa Kanz who have the Orkymatic Pistons to help guarantee a T1 charge if you also use Ramming Speed. I think from this point on though that you'll almost never see a wartrike over a Warboss on Warbike anymore until the next codex changes points or things up for the wartrike.
tulun wrote: Kannon wagon hits on 4s and is also flat 3, not flat 2, and has a 3+ save.
It also doesn't explode on a 4+ in your lines, and can move more than 6" a turn as the Gunwagon has to move half distance.
IMO the Kannon wagon is better because it's easier to use and doesn't cost CP. T8 is nice, but not the be all end all.
Yeah this is what I said too. Ive tried Da Boomer quite a lot and it either does nothing or a lot, there is no inbetween. And it leans more towards nothing in my experience. With DG ignoring 1 damage, it feels even more flat. The 4+ to hit and 3 damage is just more reliable, toughness 8 doesnt do much for you these days excpet vs str 4. If someone wants to kill your Gunwagon, they are gonna do it.
Da Boomer was fine when it didnt have a competitor.
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Tomsug wrote: Stupide debate how to drive with 2 killsaws is finally over...
The loss of the choppa is annoying. it can take 2 sluggas. I guess you can put them on our hip, but it's still a bit dumb.
The issue though is that double kill saw made the unit edging on okay -- not great. But 9 attacks for 120 points is not good enough. 12 for 135 is much better.
Frankly, I always thought they could just mount the killsaws into the bike on the sides, it doesn't take that much imagination how a killsaw pair would work. Too bad they took away some of the options.
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Hmm, yeah the loss of that extra attack for just 5 points is a bit of a hit to the units killiness. For 40ppm they are still a decent beatstick but do feel somewhat overshone by units both in and out of the codex. Meganobs and Outriders both do what Nob bikers do but better. Be it kill stuff or being fast and durable.
About Korkskrew, I'm my experience it's extremely overrated. 1CP for an ability that you may use maybe for one model or none at all. Most of the times you don't want scrapjets in combat, and most of the fights they do they don't need a second wave of attacks. It was a good KJ in 8th when we had like 18+ CPs, but now CPs are extremely limited for our army and although I play scrapjets everytime I don't bother with the upgrade.
I have to be honest here Blackie, I completely disagree. I mean, I don't take vehicles to tournaments right now since they tend to implode on arrival right now but at the cost of 1cp you are getting a 2nd fight phase with up to 3 Scrapjets. That is honestly pretty amazing, but its even more important now that 9th is a thing. With how our vehicles can now shoot in combat, and that 2nd round of attacks, its just amazing. I've used it myself a few times to reposition my vehicles to my benefit, specifically I used it to disengage from a rather murderous enemy CC unit that luckily didn't kill it in 1 go, but allowed itself to reposition safely away and murder a lot of lesser targets while also shielding my boyz who were holding an objective.
About Korkskrew, I'm my experience it's extremely overrated. 1CP for an ability that you may use maybe for one model or none at all. Most of the times you don't want scrapjets in combat, and most of the fights they do they don't need a second wave of attacks. It was a good KJ in 8th when we had like 18+ CPs, but now CPs are extremely limited for our army and although I play scrapjets everytime I don't bother with the upgrade.
I have to be honest here Blackie, I completely disagree. I mean, I don't take vehicles to tournaments right now since they tend to implode on arrival right now but at the cost of 1cp you are getting a 2nd fight phase with up to 3 Scrapjets. That is honestly pretty amazing, but its even more important now that 9th is a thing. With how our vehicles can now shoot in combat, and that 2nd round of attacks, its just amazing. I've used it myself a few times to reposition my vehicles to my benefit, specifically I used it to disengage from a rather murderous enemy CC unit that luckily didn't kill it in 1 go, but allowed itself to reposition safely away and murder a lot of lesser targets while also shielding my boyz who were holding an objective.
Just my experience with scrapjets, which I play a lot. Even with the KJ and even if they made the charge, they typically don't get the full advantage of fighting twice anyway. That's because some of the targets they might hit are dead with a single round of combat or they're so tough that those extra attacks don't make any difference or the buggy's huge footprint prevents the extra movement. Even if they do fight twice we're talking about the extra punch from one vehicle as it's very hard to do it with multiple of them and that KJ gives you an average of 2 weaker PKs extra hits.
That ability would be very handy in later turns but maybe it's me but my buggies don't last that much .
Cheeky bugger. He used the SAG meks as a while we stand we fight choice, and basically his entire army is Obsec and infantry.
That's clever. I love when people think VP strategically and not just the ever yammer on how to best kill stuff (cuz more dead models always equals more win...right?). I bet it threw most opponents that suddenly they had to reach the Orks dz whilst fighting the midfield primary objectives game. A much harder thing to do than the normal fight-the-middle and circle around for Engage and Scramblers.
There´s an added bonus that he probably had an easier time screening out his dz to negate enemy Scramblers too. Win win
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- Killsaw (pair)
- Kombi-weapon with rokkit launcha - Kombi-weapon with skorcha
Page 203 – Points Values, Gargantuan Squiggoth
Change the ‘Supa-kannon’ option to ‘Squiggoth supa-kannon’.
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Cheeky bugger. He used the SAG meks as a while we stand we fight choice, and basically his entire army is Obsec and infantry.
That's clever. I love when people think VP strategically and not just the ever yammer on how to best kill stuff (cuz more dead models always equals more win...right?). I bet it threw most opponents that suddenly they had to reach the Orks dz whilst fighting the midfield primary objectives game. A much harder thing to do than the normal fight-the-middle and circle around for Engage and Scramblers.
There´s an added bonus that he probably had an easier time screening out his dz to negate enemy Scramblers too. Win win
Kunnin' Ork there.
But yeah, I agree. It only works with proper terrain, though, as the army is quite weak on the chin. But I could see it working out okay by trying to lean in to fully expect to get roughly tabled (minus your Big Meks hopefully) and just getting your other secondaries for sure and using your obsec army to bite / hold objectives.
I was thinking it would be a good way to get multiple killsaws into a single unit and secure that +1 attack. It also makes it pretty interesting for Da Jump.
With the limited number of ranks that can engage in combat, I feel like that's a more efficient option. If I can cram just two dual killsaw nobs into front rank, that's 10 killsaw attacks.
I just don't want to take 90 boyz at 8 ppm. I find 30 boyz + 2 10 man units more appealing. I like the idea of moar hidden power klaws.
Arguably you could never get moar hidden power klaws than right now with green tide and mob up.
Nobz bully anything smaller than them, if they have their eyes set on something they want 
