Well, yes. Obviously if that point reduction were to happen in a vacuum it'd be super strange (though it is forgeworld after all )
But for the sake of argument, assume the 20 point premium a gunwagon pays over a normal battlewagon also disappears (which it probably should). Because I'm assuming no-one really plays gunwagons right now anyways, but nevermind those for a second. Say the supa-kannon batlewagon gets a 40 points reduction, would it then be worth it you think?
Apparently Adepticon forces you to spend pre-game CPs the same way throughout the tournament, so he always started with 20CP evidently.
I'm guessing -1 for supa SAG, -1 for that detachment, -2 to deepstrike a boyz blob and an additional -1 somewhere else.
Like Jidmah said though, spending 20CP for Orks ain't tough, especially with both a supa SAG and lootas. That's 6CP a turn on just them (not including grot shields). Then fighting twice with orks in CC, maybe interrupt combat etc.
He also has a klaw boss and a bunch of boyz, so orks is never beaten and green tide are probably used during most of his games as well. He can also use wreckers with his deff skulls detachment.
We aren't short on stratagems which provide great value and the more stratagems you use to kill stuff in the first few rounds, the less stuff is shooting back at you later.
i own a supakannon and i always have abysmal luck with the dang thing.
I was hoping when i got kultures for it i'd start hitting things reliably. Nope. Still only actually do any real damage once a game it feels like, either because i keep rolling 2-3 freaking shots or my luck of 2+s rolls get in the way (i wound on a 2+! rolls 4 1s out of 5 dice....)
Statistically its....ok. Definitely overpriced. Gunwagon just shouldnt exist in the first place, battlewagons have never been taken for their Big Gun so why would i willingly shaft my occupants to fire it twice? If i wanted a "gun wagon" i'd take a regular wagon without the 'ard case, a kannon, and 15 shooty things inside.
Supakannon wagon only allows 6 dudes inside but its also opentopped by default (why that thing has access to 'ard case is beyond me...). So its hilarious to have it sitting next to your SAG mek and have the SAG mek just book it inside for an escape vector if needed, which actually made me win one game because i denied a last minute Slay the Warlord by doing that lol. Plus the SAG mek can repair it so double reasons to have them near each other.
Vineheart01 wrote: i own a supakannon and i always have abysmal luck with the dang thing.
I was hoping when i got kultures for it i'd start hitting things reliably. Nope. Still only actually do any real damage once a game it feels like, either because i keep rolling 2-3 freaking shots or my luck of 2+s rolls get in the way (i wound on a 2+! rolls 4 1s out of 5 dice....)
Statistically its....ok. Definitely overpriced. Gunwagon just shouldnt exist in the first place, battlewagons have never been taken for their Big Gun so why would i willingly shaft my occupants to fire it twice? If i wanted a "gun wagon" i'd take a regular wagon without the 'ard case, a kannon, and 15 shooty things inside.
Supakannon wagon only allows 6 dudes inside but its also opentopped by default (why that thing has access to 'ard case is beyond me...). So its hilarious to have it sitting next to your SAG mek and have the SAG mek just book it inside for an escape vector if needed, which actually made me win one game because i denied a last minute Slay the Warlord by doing that lol. Plus the SAG mek can repair it so double reasons to have them near each other.
For this reason, I really love the change to the Morkanaut's kustom mega zappa. 3d3 shots raises the minimum number of shots while lowering the max.
Yeah, like i tell my roommate all the time i wish D6 didnt exist for determining weapon stats. It should all be D3, allow for randomness but remove the extremes. Weapons that fire D6 are supposed to represent a large blast template....you mean to tell me that unless you were literally shooting 1 model a large blast only hit once? I cant recall ever barely clipping a unit, i either whiffed entirely or landed 3+ hits. Not to mention factoring in BS now instead of scatter means less hits in general, even for BS3+ guys. Would help in so many situations if all D6 went to 2D3.
I know I'm bringing us back around to the SSAG but it is definitely in the category of good not OP.
I'll post my example of it's use in my last 2 games, last weekend.
Game one it rolled double 1's for strength 2 turns in a row. with around 4 to 5 shots each time. Maybe that's just me getting diced but man it hurt. failed to wound anything.
Now the more memorable. I shot at the Swarmlord. Rolled 11 for S and 11 for number of shots. 4 hits and 2 additional hits from DDD. This caused 8 mortal wounds. wounded 4 of the rest of the shots. he fails 2 invulns and removes him since I didn't even need to roll damage. 7 more would have been average.
So yeah definitely remember that game and so does my opponent. He will plan around that as the first game all he had to do was avoid it and it did nothing.
I also found that the morkanaut does really well shooting at large targets and has been pretty consistent. I've been using more dakka on it vs the SSAG. I do find with the way weapons are declared He wastes a lot of shots. I don't want to under shoot a unit and leave it alive so usually the rokkits or the KMB get wasted. He sniped a 100% heathly stonecrusher in overwatch with his shooting.
The only gripe is that across the game I think he put about a 3rd maybe more of his own wounds onto himself. if he's in the specialist and shoots twice and opponent has -1 then he can do 2 a shooting phase.
Do note that the "Gets Hot" rule for the Morkanaut's gun is "1 or more" not "each"
He can lose 2 wounds because he has a random KMB as well, but he can never lose more than 2 in a single turn. I actually rarely suffer from it thanks to bad moonz reroll.
Vineheart01 wrote: Do note that the "Gets Hot" rule for the Morkanaut's gun is "1 or more" not "each"
He can lose 2 wounds because he has a random KMB as well, but he can never lose more than 2 in a single turn. I actually rarely suffer from it thanks to bad moonz reroll.
With the shoot twice strategem (or shoot again, whatever) isn't there another opportunity to have "1 or more" get hot after the previous shooting was resolved?
True, spaced that out for a moment.
Still thats pretty bad luck to lose that many wounds to it.
Unless you arent using Bad Moonz or Deathskullz because statistically he will roll 1 each time he fires then its fairly likely.
I have a morkanaut in most of my lists as bad moonz and i lose maybe 1 a game. Granted, not using the shoot again strat on him every time.
Thinking about the grot tide some more. And correct me if i'm wrong but gretchin can benefit from the snakebite Monster Hunter strat since it targets the 10+ wound model then modifies the roll of anything that targets it. A way to make mekguns a touch more brutal perhaps? Or just let the 300 grot army wound on 5s.
I was able to play a game against a friend of mine today, he has officially decided that he SSAG is crap..... (BTW this was Orkz Vs Orkz) He took a SSAG and I didn't for the first time in awhile. His SSAG survived to turn 4 but never got above S6 and never had more then 8 shots. He managed to strip my Morkanaut of 4 wounds the entire game and that was me making bad saving throws for my KFF.
On the flipside, I mulched his entire Nob biker mob and 2 bands of Warbikers in 2 turns with my Loota blob of 20 lootas
flandarz wrote: Yeah. The SSAG seems like it's either gonna be destroying things left and right, or it ain't gonna do nothing. Never seems to get that "average".
When every stat is randomized no wonder.
Though with +1 to wound vs vehicles it negates roll of bad strength making it much more reliable. No more wounding on 6's. Even 5+ is fairly rare. That will reduce swings quite a lot.
I am new to the orks. Is it possible to build an elite list (evil sunz?) which can be competitive ?
Thank you!
Well 20-30 meganobz lists seems to have done okayish so that could be start. Evil sun works nicely with meganobz as well(funnily enough with evil suns the slower units like the trait more than fast units like buggies...). Da jump and charge needing 8" is pretty decent(78% chance).
Nobz are also okayish. Twice the points vs boyz but 4+ and 2 wounds vs 6+ and 1 wound. Less attacks but S5 is nice. Again works nicely coming out of da jump(I have 10 with 6 big choppas and choppa and 4 with twin choppas. Makes mincemeat out of lots of things). Gorkanauts work nicely from tellyporta as well.
You do need some mass as well to fuel at least 2 battallions though and for shooty elements either deathskull, badmoon(crowd favourite) or freebootas would be better.
flandarz wrote: Yeah. The SSAG seems like it's either gonna be destroying things left and right, or it ain't gonna do nothing. Never seems to get that "average".
When every stat is randomized no wonder.
Though with +1 to wound vs vehicles it negates roll of bad strength making it much more reliable. No more wounding on 6's. Even 5+ is fairly rare. That will reduce swings quite a lot.
I think the SSAG really just shows that it is what the normal SAG should be. The normal SAG at d6 shots averages 3.5 shots, so averages ~1 hit and average str 7 so against most vehicles wounding on 4's, so ~50% chance to get one wound with good Ap and d6dmg. if the unit has a inv save lower that further. The SSAG with 2D6 at least on average rolls ups that to a little over 1 average wound on the target instead of just over .5 chances to wound.
flandarz wrote: Yeah. The SSAG seems like it's either gonna be destroying things left and right, or it ain't gonna do nothing. Never seems to get that "average".
When every stat is randomized no wonder.
Though with +1 to wound vs vehicles it negates roll of bad strength making it much more reliable. No more wounding on 6's. Even 5+ is fairly rare. That will reduce swings quite a lot.
I think the SSAG really just shows that it is what the normal SAG should be. The normal SAG at d6 shots averages 3.5 shots, so averages ~1 hit and average str 7 so against most vehicles wounding on 4's, so ~50% chance to get one wound with good Ap and d6dmg. if the unit has a inv save lower that further. The SSAG with 2D6 at least on average rolls ups that to a little over 1 average wound on the target instead of just over .5 chances to wound.
right. If that relic didn't exist I doubt I would really ever take a SAG. They were always iffy. Less so now that they don't kill themselves but not enough to really justify 80 points being spent elsewhere. The problem is that if they were 2d6 I would probably take multiples of them. So how do you balance that out. 3 2d6 shots at 80 points and being able to hide would be rough to fight.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So another thing I have been finding is that I don't run my boys down the field as often as I used to. I have been moving them slowly while they take fire and my hard hitting shooting units delete my OP important units then I just green tide them back as it gets difficult to kill the full squad when a painboy supports them.
I don't know if anyone else experiences this but I see it happening against nids as genestealers will delete a 30 man squad a turn at a time and double shooting gaunts can almost do the same. )I mainly play nids. I feel like against guard or marines I would advance way more so that could be it.
flandarz wrote: Yeah. The SSAG seems like it's either gonna be destroying things left and right, or it ain't gonna do nothing. Never seems to get that "average".
When every stat is randomized no wonder.
Though with +1 to wound vs vehicles it negates roll of bad strength making it much more reliable. No more wounding on 6's. Even 5+ is fairly rare. That will reduce swings quite a lot.
I think the SSAG really just shows that it is what the normal SAG should be. The normal SAG at d6 shots averages 3.5 shots, so averages ~1 hit and average str 7 so against most vehicles wounding on 4's, so ~50% chance to get one wound with good Ap and d6dmg. if the unit has a inv save lower that further. The SSAG with 2D6 at least on average rolls ups that to a little over 1 average wound on the target instead of just over .5 chances to wound.
right. If that relic didn't exist I doubt I would really ever take a SAG. They were always iffy. Less so now that they don't kill themselves but not enough to really justify 80 points being spent elsewhere. The problem is that if they were 2d6 I would probably take multiples of them. So how do you balance that out. 3 2d6 shots at 80 points and being able to hide would be rough to fight.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So another thing I have been finding is that I don't run my boys down the field as often as I used to. I have been moving them slowly while they take fire and my hard hitting shooting units delete my OP important units then I just green tide them back as it gets difficult to kill the full squad when a painboy supports them.
I don't know if anyone else experiences this but I see it happening against nids as genestealers will delete a 30 man squad a turn at a time and double shooting gaunts can almost do the same. )I mainly play nids. I feel like against guard or marines I would advance way more so that could be it.
I mean.. taking 3 2d6SAG shot models that are 80 points each would mean an average of around 3 hits at str 7 and d6dmg before invunerable saves. that is not exactly game breaking at 240 points, shot at a knight they ignore 1/3 of those and it does an average of ~7 dmg for the 2 going through. (napkin math so a bit off but in that ball park)
as for large units of boys the jump, tella porta or wagons help. If you go first remember with cult ambush they have to reveal locations at the end of your movement phase. I have had GSC players say it is at the beginning of opponents shooting, negating the jump as the deploy things that can handle them (learned after the match they were wrong there, but have seen it played liek this several times on videos and games being watched in person). make sure they reveal and then in your psychic phase you the jump 9.01" away from target. another note with tpolaying large mobs is surrounding an enemy in combat means they cannot fallback and so cannot have you shot at. If they are fearless and auto passing that leadership to stay and its 3-4 models trappign them in is very advantagious as you finish em on thier assault phase to keep pushing on your turn. remember to keep units near other large mobs so they do not fail leadership. Using unstoppable green tide on a 30 man unit that was brought down to 3-4 boys is always fun.
flandarz wrote: Yeah. The SSAG seems like it's either gonna be destroying things left and right, or it ain't gonna do nothing. Never seems to get that "average".
When every stat is randomized no wonder.
Though with +1 to wound vs vehicles it negates roll of bad strength making it much more reliable. No more wounding on 6's. Even 5+ is fairly rare. That will reduce swings quite a lot.
I think the SSAG really just shows that it is what the normal SAG should be. The normal SAG at d6 shots averages 3.5 shots, so averages ~1 hit and average str 7 so against most vehicles wounding on 4's, so ~50% chance to get one wound with good Ap and d6dmg. if the unit has a inv save lower that further. The SSAG with 2D6 at least on average rolls ups that to a little over 1 average wound on the target instead of just over .5 chances to wound.
right. If that relic didn't exist I doubt I would really ever take a SAG. They were always iffy. Less so now that they don't kill themselves but not enough to really justify 80 points being spent elsewhere. The problem is that if they were 2d6 I would probably take multiples of them. So how do you balance that out. 3 2d6 shots at 80 points and being able to hide would be rough to fight.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So another thing I have been finding is that I don't run my boys down the field as often as I used to. I have been moving them slowly while they take fire and my hard hitting shooting units delete my OP important units then I just green tide them back as it gets difficult to kill the full squad when a painboy supports them.
I don't know if anyone else experiences this but I see it happening against nids as genestealers will delete a 30 man squad a turn at a time and double shooting gaunts can almost do the same. )I mainly play nids. I feel like against guard or marines I would advance way more so that could be it.
I mean.. taking 3 2d6SAG shot models that are 80 points each would mean an average of around 3 hits at str 7 and d6dmg before invunerable saves. that is not exactly game breaking at 240 points, shot at a knight they ignore 1/3 of those and it does an average of ~7 dmg for the 2 going through. (napkin math so a bit off but in that ball park)
as for large units of boys the jump, tella porta or wagons help. If you go first remember with cult ambush they have to reveal locations at the end of your movement phase. I have had GSC players say it is at the beginning of opponents shooting, negating the jump as the deploy things that can handle them (learned after the match they were wrong there, but have seen it played liek this several times on videos and games being watched in person). make sure they reveal and then in your psychic phase you the jump 9.01" away from target. another note with tpolaying large mobs is surrounding an enemy in combat means they cannot fallback and so cannot have you shot at. If they are fearless and auto passing that leadership to stay and its 3-4 models trappign them in is very advantagious as you finish em on thier assault phase to keep pushing on your turn. remember to keep units near other large mobs so they do not fail leadership. Using unstoppable green tide on a 30 man unit that was brought down to 3-4 boys is always fun.
The only problem with the 3 SSAG would be the fact that yes they don't do much to knights but there would be a huge threat to all other large vehicles/creatures that either have a crappy ++ or have none at all. 8 wound monsters would be in danger. dreads, small skimmers, carnifexes. anything like this with lower wound counts would get obliterated by having 3 of these. Again I'm saying I think that the standard SAG is a little underpowered, but having 3 SSAG might be a tad too much. Maybe theres a middle ground improvement for them.
flandarz wrote: Yeah. The SSAG seems like it's either gonna be destroying things left and right, or it ain't gonna do nothing. Never seems to get that "average".
When every stat is randomized no wonder.
Though with +1 to wound vs vehicles it negates roll of bad strength making it much more reliable. No more wounding on 6's. Even 5+ is fairly rare. That will reduce swings quite a lot.
I think the SSAG really just shows that it is what the normal SAG should be. The normal SAG at d6 shots averages 3.5 shots, so averages ~1 hit and average str 7 so against most vehicles wounding on 4's, so ~50% chance to get one wound with good Ap and d6dmg. if the unit has a inv save lower that further. The SSAG with 2D6 at least on average rolls ups that to a little over 1 average wound on the target instead of just over .5 chances to wound.
right. If that relic didn't exist I doubt I would really ever take a SAG. They were always iffy. Less so now that they don't kill themselves but not enough to really justify 80 points being spent elsewhere. The problem is that if they were 2d6 I would probably take multiples of them. So how do you balance that out. 3 2d6 shots at 80 points and being able to hide would be rough to fight.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So another thing I have been finding is that I don't run my boys down the field as often as I used to. I have been moving them slowly while they take fire and my hard hitting shooting units delete my OP important units then I just green tide them back as it gets difficult to kill the full squad when a painboy supports them.
I don't know if anyone else experiences this but I see it happening against nids as genestealers will delete a 30 man squad a turn at a time and double shooting gaunts can almost do the same. )I mainly play nids. I feel like against guard or marines I would advance way more so that could be it.
I mean.. taking 3 2d6SAG shot models that are 80 points each would mean an average of around 3 hits at str 7 and d6dmg before invunerable saves. that is not exactly game breaking at 240 points, shot at a knight they ignore 1/3 of those and it does an average of ~7 dmg for the 2 going through. (napkin math so a bit off but in that ball park)
as for large units of boys the jump, tella porta or wagons help. If you go first remember with cult ambush they have to reveal locations at the end of your movement phase. I have had GSC players say it is at the beginning of opponents shooting, negating the jump as the deploy things that can handle them (learned after the match they were wrong there, but have seen it played liek this several times on videos and games being watched in person). make sure they reveal and then in your psychic phase you the jump 9.01" away from target. another note with tpolaying large mobs is surrounding an enemy in combat means they cannot fallback and so cannot have you shot at. If they are fearless and auto passing that leadership to stay and its 3-4 models trappign them in is very advantagious as you finish em on thier assault phase to keep pushing on your turn. remember to keep units near other large mobs so they do not fail leadership. Using unstoppable green tide on a 30 man unit that was brought down to 3-4 boys is always fun.
The only problem with the 3 SSAG would be the fact that yes they don't do much to knights but there would be a huge threat to all other large vehicles/creatures that either have a crappy ++ or have none at all. 8 wound monsters would be in danger. dreads, small skimmers, carnifexes. anything like this with lower wound counts would get obliterated by having 3 of these. Again I'm saying I think that the standard SAG is a little underpowered, but having 3 SSAG might be a tad too much. Maybe theres a middle ground improvement for them.
against a Carnifex average rolls means 240 points concentrating thier fire likely just kills a 80 point model with the 3rd shot. on a space marine dread same result, 240 points shoots and kills 130 points though if he popped smoke he likely lives. There could be some middle ground here, but as a mostly anti tank gun a SAG is no more points efficient than a heavy weapons team with 3 lascannons. it just has character protection for less average dmg output
flandarz wrote: Yeah. The SSAG seems like it's either gonna be destroying things left and right, or it ain't gonna do nothing. Never seems to get that "average".
When every stat is randomized no wonder.
Though with +1 to wound vs vehicles it negates roll of bad strength making it much more reliable. No more wounding on 6's. Even 5+ is fairly rare. That will reduce swings quite a lot.
I think the SSAG really just shows that it is what the normal SAG should be. The normal SAG at d6 shots averages 3.5 shots, so averages ~1 hit and average str 7 so against most vehicles wounding on 4's, so ~50% chance to get one wound with good Ap and d6dmg. if the unit has a inv save lower that further. The SSAG with 2D6 at least on average rolls ups that to a little over 1 average wound on the target instead of just over .5 chances to wound.
right. If that relic didn't exist I doubt I would really ever take a SAG. They were always iffy. Less so now that they don't kill themselves but not enough to really justify 80 points being spent elsewhere. The problem is that if they were 2d6 I would probably take multiples of them. So how do you balance that out. 3 2d6 shots at 80 points and being able to hide would be rough to fight.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So another thing I have been finding is that I don't run my boys down the field as often as I used to. I have been moving them slowly while they take fire and my hard hitting shooting units delete my OP important units then I just green tide them back as it gets difficult to kill the full squad when a painboy supports them.
I don't know if anyone else experiences this but I see it happening against nids as genestealers will delete a 30 man squad a turn at a time and double shooting gaunts can almost do the same. )I mainly play nids. I feel like against guard or marines I would advance way more so that could be it.
I mean.. taking 3 2d6SAG shot models that are 80 points each would mean an average of around 3 hits at str 7 and d6dmg before invunerable saves. that is not exactly game breaking at 240 points, shot at a knight they ignore 1/3 of those and it does an average of ~7 dmg for the 2 going through. (napkin math so a bit off but in that ball park)
as for large units of boys the jump, tella porta or wagons help. If you go first remember with cult ambush they have to reveal locations at the end of your movement phase. I have had GSC players say it is at the beginning of opponents shooting, negating the jump as the deploy things that can handle them (learned after the match they were wrong there, but have seen it played liek this several times on videos and games being watched in person). make sure they reveal and then in your psychic phase you the jump 9.01" away from target. another note with tpolaying large mobs is surrounding an enemy in combat means they cannot fallback and so cannot have you shot at. If they are fearless and auto passing that leadership to stay and its 3-4 models trappign them in is very advantagious as you finish em on thier assault phase to keep pushing on your turn. remember to keep units near other large mobs so they do not fail leadership. Using unstoppable green tide on a 30 man unit that was brought down to 3-4 boys is always fun.
The only problem with the 3 SSAG would be the fact that yes they don't do much to knights but there would be a huge threat to all other large vehicles/creatures that either have a crappy ++ or have none at all. 8 wound monsters would be in danger. dreads, small skimmers, carnifexes. anything like this with lower wound counts would get obliterated by having 3 of these. Again I'm saying I think that the standard SAG is a little underpowered, but having 3 SSAG might be a tad too much. Maybe theres a middle ground improvement for them.
against a Carnifex average rolls means 240 points concentrating thier fire likely just kills a 80 point model with the 3rd shot. on a space marine dread same result, 240 points shoots and kills 130 points though if he popped smoke he likely lives. There could be some middle ground here, but as a mostly anti tank gun a SAG is no more points efficient than a heavy weapons team with 3 lascannons. it just has character protection for less average dmg output
Well I used Badmoons as a template since it's more difficult to calculate in the Deathskulls trait. but at average S7 with 2d6 hits you will be averaging 5.69 Damage after DDD. again thats average. This doesnt factor having a deathskulls trait for rerolling a to hit, to wound or a damage roll. Deathskulls was also found to put out more damage then badmoons but based on these averages 2 would kill 1 carnifex and the third would be free to shoot another one. Carnifexes are also not 80 points if I recall they come out to roughly 100 after giving them weapons some variants may be more. I did just want to reiterate the weapon itself at 2d6 would not be OP but having access to 3 of them, I would probably take this option every game. That's the sign of a very good unit but it may be too much for typical games. you would definitely see it on the competitive circuits.
Initially when i was running the SSAG i still had my deffkilla as my warlord, so the SSAG was underwhelming for the most part. I routinely wounded on 5s, which was still offset by the 2D6 shots but i still felt like it wasnt doing enough. Added the Big Killa Boss trait and i started reliably decimating vehicles/monsters, since as long as i didnt roll 2 or 3 on strength i wounded on 4s anyway.
That being said, i'd have to agree if i could bring 3 of them i totally would. Firing 6D6 SAG shots a turn....eesh
Vineheart01 wrote: Initially when i was running the SSAG i still had my deffkilla as my warlord, so the SSAG was underwhelming for the most part. I routinely wounded on 5s, which was still offset by the 2D6 shots but i still felt like it wasnt doing enough. Added the Big Killa Boss trait and i started reliably decimating vehicles/monsters, since as long as i didnt roll 2 or 3 on strength i wounded on 4s anyway.
That being said, i'd have to agree if i could bring 3 of them i totally would. Firing 6D6 SAG shots a turn....eesh
The Big killa boss is really the combo that makes it super tough to have to face.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Outside of assault are lootas and shoota boys our only anti horde?
yea, chaff clearing is a dakka Jet specialty, I usually run 2 they do a good job of clearing screens, and if your opponent has a big baddie you do not want to be in combat plot your flying base between it and its target. has to go around unless it has fly or a jet pack.
G00fySmiley wrote: yea, chaff clearing is a dakka Jet specialty, I usually run 2 they do a good job of clearing screens, and if your opponent has a big baddie you do not want to be in combat plot your flying base between it and its target. has to go around unless it has fly or a jet pack.
The reason I ask is that when my brother and I play we have a weird system we sometimes do, where the winner of a match doesn't change their list from the last match and the loser can remake a list. It does tend to get a little list tailory but it allows us to try new things as the lists slowly evolve across multiple games. I'm expecting more horde based lists coming up shortly. Just trying to figure out what I can do.
Played game against new sisters of battle and what a massacre it was. Reverse way :( I had fun light list with 3x30 evil sun boyz, 30+10 stormboyz, killa klaw boss and weirdboy. Also death skull battallion with ssag, weirdboy, 3x10 gretchin, 3xscrapjet, 2xshockjump and smasha gun.
So right off the bat not competive ork army. Then ran into sisters of battle which are particularly good vs orks it seems. They had couple basic squads, 2x4 heavy bolter squads, 3 twin heavy flamer transports, 3 walkers with twin heavy flamers, some seraphins. Whole bunch of meltaguns here and there.
Then I got badish scenario. Aerial supply drop or something. Just 4 objectives that float(and favour first turn goer as those move on their turn and first turn player decides do they move before or after scoring...). Just 4 objectives helps castle army and his was.
Then we rolled for deployment zone and I got fairly bad one(the 1st). Then I took up wrong side. I took one with more places to hide forgetting sisters are short range AND he got 2 objectives right away.
As he got 1st turn he moved and killed 12 stormboyz. Not too bad. But he fired smokes on all.
Then I screwed up finally for good and went for full attack. T1 charge with stormboyz vs seraphin using the special ability losing total of 5 from 2 mobs total. Da jumped evil sun boyz next to two transports. Shooting I failed to do anything(or maybe 2 wounds to transport). In combat I killed 2 seraphins and used in desperation fight again tagging infantry unit and failing to kill anything and now I was out of CP. Evil sun boyz failed charge.
3 walkers came and 6d6 heavy flamer hits later stormboyz are no more. Evil sun boyz were likewise vaporized.
Warboss went in and killed one transport, SAG got one walker dead but that's about it. Buggies were all missing.
And long story short I never got any real damage. Float dice offs were all wrong for me so one of my objectives went away and then it was went there to be charged by walkers(and thus not score anyway) or score 1 while he kept scoring 2. In the end he had lost like couple spare infantry models, 1 walker and 2 transports. Wee.
Everything went wrong from the get go, my 1st turn was ridiculous(should have for starters deploy stormboyz out of LOS and just wait turn 1 for smokes to clear). Deep strikes were pretty much hopeless. Only places I could land were FAAAAAAAAAAR away from objectives. Him going 1st and scout move meant that as I wasn't able to clear stuff at all T1(stupid smokes) it was hopeless.
And trying to reach his firebase would have been tough one on foot anyway. like dozen heavy bolters and lots of bolters hitting on 2+ rerolling 1's....Owwww. And then looootsa flamers.
This kind of rush 'em up doesn't seem to be all that good vs sisters even with my turn 1 stupidity ignored. Shooty orks with big loota mob and lots of mek guns meanwhile could have been real headache for them.
Apart from the 2 repulsor list that vaporized over 100 models 1st turn worst defeat I have had since codex.
Hard to say anything about buggies as my dice rolling was atrocious. 6 wing missiles hitting on 4+ with reroll failed. Every...Single...One. And that wasn't even it all.
tneva82 wrote: Played game against new sisters of battle and what a massacre it was. Reverse way :( I had fun light list with 3x30 evil sun boyz, 30+10 stormboyz, killa klaw boss and weirdboy. Also death skull battallion with ssag, weirdboy, 3x10 gretchin, 3xscrapjet, 2xshockjump and smasha gun.
So right off the bat not competive ork army. Then ran into sisters of battle which are particularly good vs orks it seems. They had couple basic squads, 2x4 heavy bolter squads, 3 twin heavy flamer transports, 3 walkers with twin heavy flamers, some seraphins. Whole bunch of meltaguns here and there.
Then I got badish scenario. Aerial supply drop or something. Just 4 objectives that float(and favour first turn goer as those move on their turn and first turn player decides do they move before or after scoring...). Just 4 objectives helps castle army and his was.
Then we rolled for deployment zone and I got fairly bad one(the 1st). Then I took up wrong side. I took one with more places to hide forgetting sisters are short range AND he got 2 objectives right away.
As he got 1st turn he moved and killed 12 stormboyz. Not too bad. But he fired smokes on all.
Then I screwed up finally for good and went for full attack. T1 charge with stormboyz vs seraphin using the special ability losing total of 5 from 2 mobs total. Da jumped evil sun boyz next to two transports. Shooting I failed to do anything(or maybe 2 wounds to transport). In combat I killed 2 seraphins and used in desperation fight again tagging infantry unit and failing to kill anything and now I was out of CP. Evil sun boyz failed charge.
3 walkers came and 6d6 heavy flamer hits later stormboyz are no more. Evil sun boyz were likewise vaporized.
Warboss went in and killed one transport, SAG got one walker dead but that's about it. Buggies were all missing.
And long story short I never got any real damage. Float dice offs were all wrong for me so one of my objectives went away and then it was went there to be charged by walkers(and thus not score anyway) or score 1 while he kept scoring 2. In the end he had lost like couple spare infantry models, 1 walker and 2 transports. Wee.
Everything went wrong from the get go, my 1st turn was ridiculous(should have for starters deploy stormboyz out of LOS and just wait turn 1 for smokes to clear). Deep strikes were pretty much hopeless. Only places I could land were FAAAAAAAAAAR away from objectives. Him going 1st and scout move meant that as I wasn't able to clear stuff at all T1(stupid smokes) it was hopeless.
And trying to reach his firebase would have been tough one on foot anyway. like dozen heavy bolters and lots of bolters hitting on 2+ rerolling 1's....Owwww. And then looootsa flamers.
This kind of rush 'em up doesn't seem to be all that good vs sisters even with my turn 1 stupidity ignored. Shooty orks with big loota mob and lots of mek guns meanwhile could have been real headache for them.
Apart from the 2 repulsor list that vaporized over 100 models 1st turn worst defeat I have had since codex.
Hard to say anything about buggies as my dice rolling was atrocious. 6 wing missiles hitting on 4+ with reroll failed. Every...Single...One. And that wasn't even it all.
I wouldn't say this is a particularly weak ork list. It has most of the elements of a pretty competitive list. even the buggies are the 2 best versions. if anything drop those 5 vehicles and grab something else. but overall this is a list that I would play against tough opponents
Those 5 vehicles are 570 pts so over quarter. So saying "drop those 5 vehicles" means it's quite a different list
I was voefully short of ability to bust his vehicles T1. Coupled with rushing into and I was toast. And deep strikes were pretty much neutered. Not sure would foot slogging it been actually better. But as it is deep striking was pretty hopeless after his T1 as all I could really charge were those flamer rhinos...
3 SAG's that roll 2D6 for 80pts each would be a better then what it currently is. Hell, I would settle for 3D3 shots for the normal one at least that way you are average 6 shots a turn which usually means 2 hits, as opposed to the 1.2ish we currently get. Make the Normal SAG 3D3 shots and the SSAG 3D3 Auto hits.
Regardless, nobody is going to take a SAG right now because 1D6 shots is just crap for a race that hits on 5s, unless you want to give Big Meks access to Git Findas like I said, then teaming them with Free Bootas is a real threat, give them +2 to hit and suddenly those SAGs are looking a bit better.
Giving SAG big meks the option of taking either a grot oiler -or- ammo runt would be an easy little bonus to add.
Making all SAGs2d6 shots seems way too good imho, but the non-relic ones certainly are lacking. Roll 2d6 and pick the highest is a buff I'd be happy with. I'm not sure I think the supa SAG needs the buff of rolling 3d6 and pick the two best, but it'd be weird if it didn't then.
I honestly think "Kustom Ammo" needs to be redone though, an army getting access to two different shoot again strats just isn't very fun for the opponent. Make it reroll any hit rolls or something. Or that unmodified 6's now generate extra hits, not shots (for 1CP).
tneva82 wrote: Those 5 vehicles are 570 pts so over quarter. So saying "drop those 5 vehicles" means it's quite a different list
I was voefully short of ability to bust his vehicles T1. Coupled with rushing into and I was toast. And deep strikes were pretty much neutered. Not sure would foot slogging it been actually better. But as it is deep striking was pretty hopeless after his T1 as all I could really charge were those flamer rhinos...
yea, and honestly i would not drop all of the vehicles. I run 1 scrap jet, 1 shokk jump, and one kbb they all have different roles to play, and they dio htem prety well. admitadly they are a bit overcosted for what they do but not any more than most out units. i run em as death skulls because rerolling a hit a wound and getting a 6++ on them is a no brainer sompared to the other clans.
kbb zips up and burns down screens early, ususlaly dead by turn 2 or 3.
scrap jet hunts transports and can even usually shred wht is in them... oh cute a chimera or taurox with veterans or guardsmen headed to an objective woudl be a shame if something stopped it (this is a very reactionary fast unit for baord control)
shokk jump is part tank killer part objective grabber. stays out of LOS which is easier than others due to being pretty short and just expose to what it it firing at. if you need an objective across the baord advance, hope for a 4+ and if you really need it command point for it.
Usually I lead the 3 with a wartrike in an outrider detachment for 450 points it is def worth it. I am planning on experimenting with the new relic wartrike as warlord with the ard as nails for T8.
if you have Zagstruk model I would recommend him also as a drop in disruption, its on model to come in turn 2 wherever he fits to wreck things. plus with boys having exploding 6's for goffs makes multiassault all the better.
yeah when i saw the name Kustom Ammo i thought it was gonna be some gun profile boost, i.e. make all Kustom Mega weapons fired by a unit S10 or something for a CP.
Yet it was another shoot again that works on walkers. Thats...odd...
I don't really see a huge deal with it. Even with Bad Moonz, it just let's you shoot twice with two different units. And it costs you 1 CP to even access the strat. If you're using Kustom Ammo and Bad Moonz shoot again, that's 4 CP down in a single phase, without accounting for Command Rerolls and Moar Dakka. You'll be burning through CP so fast, you *might* get two turns of this before you're bone dry.
Just a quick tip - don't waste CP on ramming speed with a deffkopta charging a Hemlock. It will only lead to auto hitting misery. In fact don't charge a Hemlock at all.
I played yesterday. I'll recount my game when I get chance. Eldar again. 1750 pts.
mhalko1 wrote: double shooting a gorkanaut at flamer range into a horde would be pretty great.
36 mega shoota shots
2d6 flamer shots
24 twin big shoota shots
4 rockets -meh ( could be shot at another unit)
Did that with a freebooterz Meka-list vs lootasbomb . Oh man, it was beautiful, between morale and casualty I wiped like 40 gretchin, 10 lootas AND charged in what was left of 30 shoota boyz.
My dude had to concede after that
An Actual Englishman wrote: Just a quick tip - don't waste CP on ramming speed with a deffkopta charging a Hemlock. It will only lead to auto hitting misery. In fact don't charge a Hemlock at all.
I played yesterday. I'll recount my game when I get chance. Eldar again. 1750 pts.
I find them far to valuable to use in close combat. I use them with the kopta rockits in a deathskulls detachement and let them surf the 24" bubble the enemy has. They allways shoot on max range, so unless the enemy comes forward (straight into to the horde ) the're relatively safe. And they do wreck face in that configuration. Sometimes those Lucky gitz get 3 hits for one kopta thanks to dakkadakka and Lucky rerolls . The other player's expensive 3W elite model squads hates them.
I am thinking about trying out Orks, and I'm looking at used armies. One army I found has the following list:
1 Ork looted Taurox
1 Ork Trukk
1 Ork large truck(kan ikke huske navnet) med supa kannon.
4 Deff dreds
6 killa kanz
15 Shoota boys
35 Choppa boys
10 Jump pack orks ( ka ikke huske navnet)
8 lootas
6 burnaboys
9 tank busters
7 Nobs
3 Meganobz
3 Ork bikers
10 Grots
1 AoS ork Lord conversion
2 painboys
1 Skarsnik
Will I have a good time with such a list? Or are people still spamming ork boys? Forgive me I know nothing of ork lists.
Good units from list: deff dreads can work depending on weapons. 50 boyz is decent start. Lootas and tank busters both works. Nobz and meganobz are both okay. Grots are needed.
Bad units: Killa kans, bikers, burnaboyz.
Rest are mixed bag.
Big issue though is numbers. Lootas you want 15 strong at least. Boyz another 10 for 2 30 mob at least would be good. Some more grot units are needed for 2nd battallion or brigade(you really need those CP's). You have basically 2 units of boyz and 1 grots for 3 troops. Orks really want 6 if not 9 for tripple battallions and grots fill 'em cheap.
Stormboyz(the jump packers) in 10 are either 2x5 for objective grabbing turn 3 deep strike or you would need more of them if you want them to actually do some damage.
So depending on price decent start but you want some padding up numbers. Not huge amount though. No need to buy like 100 boyz for example ;-) 1 box of boyz, 3 box of grots, 2 box of lootas would take you long way for example. Meganobz could also do with doubling numbers. 3 struggle to make dent on anything. Even with double kill saw's that's just 12 attacks hitting on 4+ so not much they can reliably kill fast that's worth it for meganobz.
I am thinking about trying out Orks, and I'm looking at used armies. One army I found has the following list:
1 Ork looted Taurox
1 Ork Trukk
1 Ork large truck(kan ikke huske navnet) med supa kannon.
4 Deff dreds
6 killa kanz
15 Shoota boys
35 Choppa boys
10 Jump pack orks ( ka ikke huske navnet)
8 lootas
6 burnaboys
9 tank busters
7 Nobs
3 Meganobz
3 Ork bikers
10 Grots
1 AoS ork Lord conversion
2 painboys
1 Skarsnik
Will I have a good time with such a list? Or are people still spamming ork boys? Forgive me I know nothing of ork lists.
Thanks in advance!
Welcome! Like Tneva said, it's basically all useable and should provide a pretty decent backbone. The killa kanz and burna boyz are in a rough spot but other than that it's good stuff.
What you need is to expand on whatever units you want to focus on since Orks want to have some numbers as redundancy and force multipliers for stratagems. Either more MANZ or lootas could be a good start if you don't feel like painting a horde of ork boyz.
But IMHO, the first purchases you should do is 1 weirdboy (use the AoS weirdnob shaman model I say) and 2-3 boxes of grots. You're going to need HQ's and cheap troop slot fillers regardless of what build you're doing. A big mek with shokk attack gun is also a good bet because of the relic version we got for him in the vigilus defiant book.
I am thinking about trying out Orks, and I'm looking at used armies. One army I found has the following list:
1 Ork looted Taurox
1 Ork Trukk
1 Ork large truck(kan ikke huske navnet) med supa kannon.
4 Deff dreds
6 killa kanz
15 Shoota boys
35 Choppa boys
10 Jump pack orks ( ka ikke huske navnet)
8 lootas
6 burnaboys
9 tank busters
7 Nobs
3 Meganobz
3 Ork bikers
10 Grots
1 AoS ork Lord conversion
2 painboys
1 Skarsnik
Will I have a good time with such a list? Or are people still spamming ork boys? Forgive me I know nothing of ork lists.
Thanks in advance!
The old adage of boys before toys is still very true this edition where cheap bodies are one of the strongest things.
The Nobz could be good or bad depending on how they are equipped, they do the best with a mix of dual choppas and big choppas, I liek a single claw in there too, but that is more of a utility.
I think you would have some fun pick up games as is , but need more boyz, grots, and perhaps a few big guns magnetize them so you can play with different guns if you want to do tournament/competitive play. For beer and pretzels games though that should be great to have some fun, lots of different models to see which styles of units you like, it looks like a great start for sure.
I think you would have some fun pick up games as is , but need more boyz, grots, and perhaps a few big guns magnetize them so you can play with different guns if you want to do tournament/competitive play. For beer and pretzels games though that should be great to have some fun, lots of different models to see which styles of units you like, it looks like a great start for sure.
If by big guns you mean mek guns even better could be buy trukk kit and do all 4. Or buy some more mek gun boxes and make more of the better ones(4 mek guns and 3 trukk kits would give you 4 traktor kannon, 4 smasha gun and 4 kmk and 1 bubble chucka just for fun. No wasted chassis and no bubble chuckas would be 4 truks and 6 mek guns giving you 6 of the each important ones)
More expensive than magnets(and you need some grots as well for crew) but benefit of being able to field more mek guns at the same time for cheaper price than buying say 12 magnetized mek guns(I have fielded 12 mek guns. Just not 12 of same but as smasha gun, traktor cannon and smasha gun each have role no big deal)
I think you would have some fun pick up games as is , but need more boyz, grots, and perhaps a few big guns magnetize them so you can play with different guns if you want to do tournament/competitive play. For beer and pretzels games though that should be great to have some fun, lots of different models to see which styles of units you like, it looks like a great start for sure.
If by big guns you mean mek guns even better could be buy trukk kit and do all 4. Or buy some more mek gun boxes and make more of the better ones(4 mek guns and 3 trukk kits would give you 4 traktor kannon, 4 smasha gun and 4 kmk and 1 bubble chucka just for fun. No wasted chassis and no bubble chuckas would be 4 truks and 6 mek guns giving you 6 of the each important ones)
More expensive than magnets(and you need some grots as well for crew) but benefit of being able to field more mek guns at the same time for cheaper price than buying say 12 magnetized mek guns(I have fielded 12 mek guns. Just not 12 of same but as smasha gun, traktor cannon and smasha gun each have role no big deal)
yes, the mek guns, the little ones they do not even sell anymore though the kannon still has a place in some lists and is a good way to fill in if you have some points lef tover as they are cheap as chips and can slot into most detachments easy enough.
as for how many really not much point in buying more than 3 anyway, and oen box can easily be kit bashed into making all the rest of the units with whatever you have bits wise. I used leftover battlewagon doors some random wheels from broken toys my kids have and some sprue to make some bases. But for tournament / serious play I like the bases from GW and to avoid a DQ on a model I own 3 bases and the magnets mean they can be run as whatever.
Yeah, I am a donkey when it comes to converting and kitbashing, but watching YouTube and spending some time converting I managed to make 3 Smashaguns and 3 Traktor cannon out of 1 truckk, one old buggy and one box of mek gunz ✌️
Edit:very little plasticard and and a couple of lascannon were needed anyway
tneva82 wrote: 3 requires you to have other vehicles though as losing 3 isnt even hard. So if 3 is all you have you get 1 round of shooting half the time.
true but in the list of models there he has 2 trukks, a litkely battle wagon, kans, deff dred, bikers and meganobs. If the onyl vehicles or tough creatures I was bringing were mek guns then sure bringing more is a must, but I find they are useful but do not pose enough of a threat to be targeted over more threatening things when you have buggies, morka/gorkanaught, battlewagons etc.
Ahh, i love kitbashing Mek Gunz, even if I don't use mek gunz right now because they are too flimsy. Seriously, going from T7 with a 3+ save to T5 with a 5+ save is just ridiculous.
SemperMortis wrote: Ahh, i love kitbashing Mek Gunz, even if I don't use mek gunz right now because they are too flimsy. Seriously, going from T7 with a 3+ save to T5 with a 5+ save is just ridiculous.
Their cheapness makes them worth it. Currently have three based on two chimera's and a trukk (yep, a bit bigger then they should be) and planning to make a couple more.
Hey all, Been away a long time, been waiting on this codex a Looooooong time Loving the new stuff, firstly, what happened to the rumoured new Ghaz model?
Secondly, god damn killa kanz! have wanted my killa kanz list to be the meta for so long, but beggars cant be choosers. Whats the Meka-list state like? having looked through the codex and read as much of this thread as possible...
Dreads, utilising the Deathskulls re-rolls as they act as individual units, tele in with max squad, become separate units, eat as many vehicles as possible?
planes? Dakka jet for the chaff clearing that threaten your dreads? Burna bomba for elites? The KMB plane? whats its role? anti-tank? so less useful than the others in a mek list?
I'd love to squeeze in some flash gitz, but obviously inside a morka/gorka aint gona work well as you lose your ablative wounds? Do i stack grots? maybe have a grot mob ready to become grot shields when the gitz get out? Or just go with a BW and roll around blasting holes in things?
I have access to FW and Index, would a Killtank or Supaskorcha full of gitz be any good, or am i simply spending too many points on the vehicles? Was thinking how funny it would be to tele a supa-scorcha full of gitz down and just start shredding stuff, as the gitz should be able to make use of their melee profile when landing in hot.
Grots over boyz?
Man my dice are itchin! cant wait to roll dem 6's
Solar Shock wrote: Hey all, Been away a long time, been waiting on this codex a Looooooong time Loving the new stuff, firstly, what happened to the rumoured new Ghaz model?
Secondly, god damn killa kanz! have wanted my killa kanz list to be the meta for so long, but beggars cant be choosers. Whats the Meka-list state like? having looked through the codex and read as much of this thread as possible...
Dreads, utilising the Deathskulls re-rolls as they act as individual units, tele in with max squad, become separate units, eat as many vehicles as possible?
planes? Dakka jet for the chaff clearing that threaten your dreads? Burna bomba for elites? The KMB plane? whats its role? anti-tank? so less useful than the others in a mek list?
I'd love to squeeze in some flash gitz, but obviously inside a morka/gorka aint gona work well as you lose your ablative wounds? Do i stack grots? maybe have a grot mob ready to become grot shields when the gitz get out? Or just go with a BW and roll around blasting holes in things?
I have access to FW and Index, would a Killtank or Supaskorcha full of gitz be any good, or am i simply spending too many points on the vehicles? Was thinking how funny it would be to tele a supa-scorcha full of gitz down and just start shredding stuff, as the gitz should be able to make use of their melee profile when landing in hot.
Grots over boyz?
Man my dice are itchin! cant wait to roll dem 6's
I wouldnt say grots over boys, but a battalion made up of 30 grots is highly recommended.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also what would they have to do to the Mekboy workshop besides making it free in order for you to take it in a list?
?
I don't know what GW thought they were doing with that/ which playtesters worked on it because they should be reprimanded for it's rulez!
Ive discussed that with my roommate alot and we came to 2 ideas to make the Mekshop viable
1) Doesnt nullify the unit for a turn. Potentially broken given we have some long range mean guns with random shots (you have to factor in FW units, and either the Supakannon or Killtank would absolutely LOVE this) 2) The "Extra" stuff is automatic. Lose it for a turn, gain whatever minor one-shot buff you were going for, and guarantee the permanent boost. Even if you add a clause where you can only gain 1 permanent bonus i'd probably take it for this.
If the extra stuff was guaranteed i'd be using it for flavor alone. The only things i will not run are complete dead weight units (burnas...) and it would atleast be amusing and cause some interesting scenarios such as a T9 Morkanaut lol.
bored at work so feel free to ask me anything orky about Adepticon.
If you're curious about list stuff, I also built Elliot Levy's list for him and he did pretty well with it. If I had had the models that's probably what I would have done.
I did read back a few pages and want to say sorry for the format, that's what I use when list building and I haven't had (many) illegal lists with it so I'm kind of stuck in my ways.
I also saw y'all arguing about the SSAG mek and boy do I love that guy.
My other favorite model is by far Mad doc grotsnicks, when the going gets tough, grotsnick gets chopping.
bored at work so feel free to ask me anything orky about Adepticon.
If you're curious about list stuff, I also built Elliot Levy's list for him and he did pretty well with it. If I had had the models that's probably what I would have done.
I did read back a few pages and want to say sorry for the format, that's what I use when list building and I haven't had (many) illegal lists with it so I'm kind of stuck in my ways.
I also saw y'all arguing about the SSAG mek and boy do I love that guy.
My other favorite model is by far Mad doc grotsnicks, when the going gets tough, grotsnick gets chopping.
I think the most obvious question is how much do you think the Adepticon format helped your list/what would you do differently in a pure ITC format?
The next question I'd have is unrelated to Adepticon specifically but I'm sure you won't mind answering - how confident are you with Orks going into a meta of 85 pt easy include, tailored Assassins, bolter rules, troops that potentially deny Da Jump etc? Are you making any changes to your LVO list to better prepare for these new problems?
Are you sticking with Lootas? I saw them do work at Adepticon but they are thirsty.
I think the most obvious question is how much do you think the Adepticon format helped your list/what would you do differently in a pure ITC format?
I think adepticon format generally helped but only in that I didn't have to concern myself with missions because I would just focus on tabling. That's basically what I did in ITC anyway but sometimes in ITC it would cost me. I'm sure some of you noticed I brought the exact same list. Given more prep time I likely would have gone with Elliot Levy's list as I think it's more unique. Looking back at the results though I think my current list is stronger.
The next question I'd have is unrelated to Adepticon specifically but I'm sure you won't mind answering - how confident are you with Orks going into a meta of 85 pt easy include, tailored Assassins, bolter rules, troops that potentially deny Da Jump etc? Are you making any changes to your LVO list to better prepare for these new problems?
Reasonably confident, It'll certainly be annoying but I haven't really been challenged by imperium lists. Assassins killing my characters doesn't change the fact that I only need a single turn of lootas and 2 turns of SAG mek to maul an imperium army beyond recognition. Hopefully the knight point increases will offset any benefit.
The same is kind of true for bolter rules, I just haven't had issues with those armies in the past so unless they got A LOT better then it's just a matter of I'll get more tired during those matches. Justin Curtis and I played a game for fun with new chaos and I was seriously impressed. I think that'll by my new boogie man.
Are you sticking with Lootas? I saw them do work at Adepticon but they are thirsty.
I keep trying to do something else but honestly, they just win games. Even with multiple vects and what not. They won the game I had against Juice, I was just too tired to effectively manage my clock but lootas single handedly won the game.
I was impressed with the bikes and terminators combined with new prayers and old psychic powers. It's a nasty combination that you basically can't stop.
Other ork lists and vect combined with stuff that my lootas usually take care of.
Really my biggest opponent is the clock. I've lost 3 games since the codex that weren't clock related.
one was when I forgot to swing half my loota attacks to clear out genestealers they were in assault with.
second was against nick nanavanti where I picked secondaries like I was gonna actually play him then decided I was gonna yolo. So I tabled him but lost cause no secondaries. Super fun game though lol.
Third was alex harrison.
All three of those games involved colossal mistakes on my part where I would have as nearly guaranteed as you can be in 40k won if I hadn't done the dumb thing.
Then I've lost like 5 or 6 games to getting clocked out. Including at Adepticon. My round 4 opponent I clocked him out and had 10 minutes left on mine then the game still ended so I lost because adepticon has weird rules about clocks. Funnily enough the exact same thing happened to Nick nanavanti round 1 of day 2 to the same opponent. I got clocked out by Juice when I would have damn near tabled him.
Basically I just need to play faster. Orks are the best army in the game right now IMO, at least with how I prefer to play.
FAQ:
I hope Mob up gets some adjustment so that it only works on boys. I don't run the loota mob up because it's unnecessary. It just creates feel bad moments where you go first, mob up, roll 3 shots, and just win. It's not good for mid tables.
With 15 doing that you still should win most of the time but it's not "we might as well shake hands now" kind of win.
just to clarify, if you bring an index option it gets access to your kultur? aka, if i want a deathskullz brigade to make use of the rerolls, i can fill those slots with index choices of KMB koptas?
bored at work so feel free to ask me anything orky about Adepticon.
If you're curious about list stuff, I also built Elliot Levy's list for him and he did pretty well with it. If I had had the models that's probably what I would have done.
I did read back a few pages and want to say sorry for the format, that's what I use when list building and I haven't had (many) illegal lists with it so I'm kind of stuck in my ways.
I also saw y'all arguing about the SSAG mek and boy do I love that guy.
My other favorite model is by far Mad doc grotsnicks, when the going gets tough, grotsnick gets chopping.
Hey man I have HEAPS of questions! Firstly, congrats on just killing it with Orks, inspirational mate.
I run a similar but different list to you, so my questions are basically gameplay tips, I do alright with this list, I have a positive win ratio but I'm not topping GTs yet.
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment - Bad Moons ++ Big Mek (Index) : Kustom Force Field
Big Mek on Warbike (Index): Kustom Force Field
Big Mek W/ Shokk Attack Gun: Shokk Attack Gun
Gretchin 10x
Gretchin 10x
Gretchin 10x
Tankbustas 15x
Lootas 15x
++ Battalion Detachment Evil Sunz ++
Warboss on Warbike (index): Power Klaw, Warlord
Weirdboy Weirdboy
Boyz x30 Choppas: Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
Boyz x30 Choppas: Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
Boyz x30 Choppas: Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
Painboy
Stormboyz x22: Boss Nob: Power Klaw, Slugga
* I have trouble using my small amount of grots effectively, I feel like my lootas often remain in exactly my deployment location or I da jump them to commit suicide. However, when I move my grots forward to gain a better foothold they get shot off the board and I'm still trapped with my loota mobility. What am I doing wrong here? How do you consider your loota placement in deployment? And what do you do in game to get more movement, if at all.
* ITC wise: Is Recon a trap? Is your list just a castle that cripples the opponent and then moves out? Or are you advancing forward with the boys from turn 1. What secondaries do you take in the mirror?
* How often do you deep strike your lootas? And with boyz squads, what variables do you consider important enough to force you to deepstrike boyz?
* What is your opinion on the 15 loota 10+ smasha gun lists that are running around? Do mek guns give over too many kill points?
Ive been mulling over the size of my grot mobs. I find that i usually have a few points left over and usually just plonk a few extra ablative wounds into my grot shields but its not based on anything concrete and tbh, they usually just evaporate to morale.
I often wonder if there would be a mathematically optimal number to take per squad? I expect them all to die, it's their job after all, but I'm interested in what might make it the most annoying for an opponent to have to take down, with an extra couple of grots hanging around getting in the way and taking up valuable wounds?
At the moment, 10 seems OK because that's usually as much as it takes for any shooting to kill, with any survivors usually evaporating to morale. Just looking at trying to waste my opponents shooting attacks for the minimum amount of points.
I also think 10 is fine, but if you want them to last longer, the only way I can think of is to make the shielded unit harder to Wound. Throwing a Painboy and KFF aura over your Orkz means less Wounds pass onto the Grots, which means it'll take longer to take them down.
flandarz wrote: I also think 10 is fine, but if you want them to last longer, the only way I can think of is to make the shielded unit harder to Wound. Throwing a Painboy and KFF aura over your Orkz means less Wounds pass onto the Grots, which means it'll take longer to take them down.
Umm you roll to transfer each time roll to wound has been made so those don't help.
Does help if the grots themselves are inside as otherwise rather than target unit they clear T2 grots directly first.
Also bigger squads+either warboss or runtherd to deal with morale.
If neither then no point going for above 10 except with remnant points with no other use. Use those as extra deep strike buffer or something.,
According to the wording of Grot Shields, you roll when the Shielded unit "loses a Wound."
Until the end of the phase, you can roll a D6 each time a model
from that unit loses a wound if there is a friendly unit
comprised entirely of <CLAN> GRETCHIN INFANTRY models
within 6" of it, and the GRETCHIN unit is closer to the
attacking model than the target.
From my interpretation, this occurs after Saves and FnP. Because your unit doesn't lose a Wound until both of those fail. You still have to use the Stratagem before then (occurs when the unit is hit with a Ranged Attack), but seems like the transfer doesn't actually take effect until the attack passes Wounding, Saves, and FnP.
To be clear, this is the FAQ version, from what I found:
Stratagems, Grot Shields Change the rules text to read: ‘Use this Stratagem after a Infantry unit from your army (excluding units comprised entirely of Gretchin models) has been hit by a ranged weapon. Until the end of the phase, you can roll a D6 each time an attack made with a ranged weapon wounds that unit if there is a friendly unit comprised entirely of Gretchin Infantry models within 6″ of it, and the Gretchin unit is closer to the attacking model than the target unit. On a 2+ one model of your choice in that Gretchin unit is slain and the attack sequence ends.’
Automatically Appended Next Post: Though, I guess there's room for interpretation there. Ie: whether you consider a unit "wounded" when they fail a Wound roll, but before Saves and FnP, or after those when the unit actually takes a Wound.
Page 127 – Stratagems, Grot ShieldsChange the rules text to read:‘Use this Stratagem after a <Clan> Infantry unit from your army (excluding units comprised entirely of Gretchin models) has been hit by a ranged weapon. Until the end of the phase, you can roll a D6 each time an attack made with a ranged weapon wounds that unit if there is a friendly unit comprised entirely of <Clan> Gretchin Infantry models within 6" of it, and the Gretchin unit is closer to the attacking model than the target unit. On a 2+ one model of your choice in that Gretchin unit is slain and the attack sequence ends.
Not "suffers a wound" but "range weapon wounds" which is talking about the actual "To Wound" roll. They basically flipped it because the old one was a bit weirdly texted. Way the Codex was worded was multiple wound weapons would just rip apart grot shields, the faq version negates the ork save but its 1 grot per 1 wound roll instead of wound suffered. Which is WAY better.
flandarz wrote: Codex, but that wording I posted there didn't change in the FAQ.
Don't have codex at hand but lirc codex said suffers a wound. Which has big impact as it talks after damage is rolled. If you think it didn't change guess you don't mind rolling 2+ d6 time vs lascannon like codex has it?
I posted directly from the Codex up there. It said "loses a Wound". Obviously, if you got a model with more than 1 Wound, you could "lose" more than a single Grot. But 1 Wound Models can only lose 1 Wound, so you should only ever lose Grots on a 1 to 1 basis.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Missed that post, Vine. I agree with you guys, for the most part. Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it. Still think the new version is pretty weirdly worded though. Probably shoulda used "when the Unit fails a Wound Roll" instead of "attack with a ranged weapon Wounds that unit." Cuz I don't consider a unit "wounded" until it takes actual damage. Might just be me though.
I say "fail" as in it "wounded" the unit. But I kinda feel like you knew that and just wanted to nitpick.
To be fair, if they wanted it to be after the Wound roll, but before Saves, they also could have just said that. As is, the FAQ version is still pretty ambiguous.
When stages are "to hit, to wound, save, damage" and it says "when you wound" it's pretty clear. What you do when you roll 4+ with S4 vs T4? That's right. You wound the target.
Considering the definition if "wound" is "an injury or to cause an injury", I'd say it's pretty ambiguous. For example, in your steps, if you pass your "to wound" but fail to damage the target because of their Save, do their Wounds go down? When you have two things using the same name, you need to be clear which one you're referring to.
Until the end of the phase, you can roll a D6 *each time an attack made with a ranged weapon wounds* that unit if there is a friendly unit comprised entirely of <Clan> Gretchin Infantry models within 6" of it, and the Gretchin unit is closer to the attacking model than the target unit.
The relevant portion is in asterisks. Now, do you Wound a model when you succeed your S vs T roll, or when it actually takes damage and you remove a Wound from the model?
flandarz wrote: Considering the definition if "wound" is "an injury or to cause an injury", I'd say it's pretty ambiguous. For example, in your steps, if you pass your "to wound" but fail to damage the target because of their Save, do their Wounds go down? When you have two things using the same name, you need to be clear which one you're referring to.
Until the end of the phase, you can roll a D6 *each time an attack made with a ranged weapon wounds* that unit if there is a friendly unit comprised entirely of <Clan> Gretchin Infantry models within 6" of it, and the Gretchin unit is closer to the attacking model than the target unit.
The relevant portion is in asterisks. Now, do you Wound a model when you succeed your S vs T roll, or when it actually takes damage and you remove a Wound from the model?
The sequence on p181 of the rule book says;
4. Resolve Attacks
1. Hit Roll...
2. Wound Roll.
If an attack scores a hit, you will then need to roll another dice to see if the attack successfully wounds the target...
3. Allocate wound: If an attack successfully wounds the target, the player commanding the target unit allocates the wound to any model in the unit. ...
4. Saving throw: ...If the result is less than the models's save charecteristic, then the saving throw fails and the model suffers damage....
5. Inflict damage: ...A model loses one wound for each point if damage it suffers...
It's clear from the sequence in the book that the point at which a ranged weapons wounds a target is at step 2, before the saving throw at step 4. After that it's referred to as damage to the wound charecteristic.
So I would declare that I am using the grot shields strategem after a successful step 1, then roll my 2+ after step 2. That's how I interpret it.
I *do* understand where it's supposed to be done. What I'm saying is that the wording is bad. Cuz until you fail that Save and assign that damage, your unit hasn't lost a Wound. Which makes it ambiguous as to whether it has been "wounded". And that's aside from the last part of the FAQ Grot Shield, which states a 2+ ends the "attack phase".
Again, I'm well aware of how Grot Shields is supposed to work. I'm just saying its wording is terrible and should be more clear.
Much as FFG has been pissing me off lately i do wish GW would take a note from their books and just define everything.
Lot of key words that simply are not clarified in 40k. At all. And when rules actively call out that event its a major problem.
flandarz wrote: I *do* understand where it's supposed to be done. What I'm saying is that the wording is bad. Cuz until you fail that Save and assign that damage, your unit hasn't lost a Wound. Which makes it ambiguous as to whether it has been "wounded". And that's aside from the last part of the FAQ Grot Shield, which states a 2+ ends the "attack phase".
Again, I'm well aware of how Grot Shields is supposed to work. I'm just saying its wording is terrible and should be more clear.
Well luckily for us the grot strategem the faq entry gets around by that by not requiring unit losing a wound. Codex yes but as a result it also meant lascannon swept multiple grots while it was at it.
It's not ambigitious. You roll to wound on step 2 roll to wound. Each succesfull roll there is a wound. You get n wounds from there. You fulfill the grot screen requirement there.
If to wound stage is not enough for you and unsaved wound isn't needed what word would you use for this stage anyway? You need some term for succesfull rolls here. Wounds seems pretty logical to me for to wound stage but...
I'm getting the feeling you're digging in your heels on this one, so I'll just letcha have this, pal. You're absolutely right. There's no way that "wounds a unit" could possibly mean "when that unit loses a wound". New players would probably never get confused by the part of the attack phase and the measurement of "health" for their character sharing a name. GW has crafted a perfectly worded masterpiece that no one ever posts a message about in YMDC asking about clarification on.
This has been an issue since many editions though. GW quite clearly assumes "wounding" (verb) something means succeeding a to wound roll.
When GW talks about a model being damaged they refer to it as losing a wound (noun).
While I agree that the wound characteristic should be called hitpoints or something less ambiguous and Mortal Wounds making the whole thing even more confusing, the interpretation of the rule is quite clear.
flandarz wrote: I'm getting the feeling you're digging in your heels on this one, so I'll just letcha have this, pal. You're absolutely right. There's no way that "wounds a unit" could possibly mean "when that unit loses a wound". New players would probably never get confused by the part of the attack phase and the measurement of "health" for their character sharing a name. GW has crafted a perfectly worded masterpiece that no one ever posts a message about in YMDC asking about clarification on.
So what's the result if not wounding for rolling the to wound roll succesfully? Give answer to that one if you can. There's term for that one so if wound is not it then you must be able to provide better one.
But sure. Keep on TFG'ing yourself 5++ and 6+++. See how many opponents you have with that attitude.,
Considering you quoted my messages where I said "you guys are probably right" and "I'm well aware of how it works", I'm just gonna hafta assume you ignored those parts. You're arguing points that have already been resolved, pal. Currently, my stance is that GW should have worded the Stratagem more clearly. The fact that a portion of the attack rolls AND a characteristic on a unit's data sheet share the same name means that, even if everyone *knows* what its supposed to mean, there's a level of ambiguity in the wording that *should* have been clarified. Your argument appears to be that the wording is 100% clear. I disagree.
So, yes. When you roll "to Wound" you're "wounding" a target. However, when you remove Wounds from a unit, I'd say it'd be easy to assume you're also "wounding" it. That's the ambiguity. That's where the wording should have been more concise.
Hey man I have HEAPS of questions! Firstly, congrats on just killing it with Orks, inspirational mate.
I run a similar but different list to you, so my questions are basically gameplay tips, I do alright with this list, I have a positive win ratio but I'm not topping GTs yet.
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment - Bad Moons ++ Big Mek (Index) : Kustom Force Field
Big Mek on Warbike (Index): Kustom Force Field
Big Mek W/ Shokk Attack Gun: Shokk Attack Gun
Gretchin 10x
Gretchin 10x
Gretchin 10x
Tankbustas 15x
Lootas 15x
++ Battalion Detachment Evil Sunz ++
Warboss on Warbike (index): Power Klaw, Warlord
Weirdboy Weirdboy
Boyz x30 Choppas: Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
Boyz x30 Choppas: Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
Boyz x30 Choppas: Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
Painboy
Stormboyz x22: Boss Nob: Power Klaw, Slugga
* I have trouble using my small amount of grots effectively, I feel like my lootas often remain in exactly my deployment location or I da jump them to commit suicide. However, when I move my grots forward to gain a better foothold they get shot off the board and I'm still trapped with my loota mobility. What am I doing wrong here? How do you consider your loota placement in deployment? And what do you do in game to get more movement, if at all.
* ITC wise: Is Recon a trap? Is your list just a castle that cripples the opponent and then moves out? Or are you advancing forward with the boys from turn 1. What secondaries do you take in the mirror?
* How often do you deep strike your lootas? And with boyz squads, what variables do you consider important enough to force you to deepstrike boyz?
* What is your opinion on the 15 loota 10+ smasha gun lists that are running around? Do mek guns give over too many kill points?
* I have trouble using my small amount of grots effectively, I feel like my lootas often remain in exactly my deployment location or I da jump them to commit suicide. However, when I move my grots forward to gain a better foothold they get shot off the board and I'm still trapped with my loota mobility. What am I doing wrong here? How do you consider your loota placement in deployment? And what do you do in game to get more movement, if at all.
I think your army likely plays A LOT different than mine. I have so much (long range) shooting that people need to come at me or I will table them. So it means my loota placement is much easier since they're defensive. You need to use your lootas offensively. When I was playing my renegade open style list I had a lot more grots which allowed me to be aggressive. I would have 30 grots around a defensive position where lootas could start then have 30 grots run up to a better vantage point to be ready to block when I da jumped lootas there.
my general advice is that lootas are so devastating, you often only need them to shoot the right stuff for one turn so suiciding them isn't that bad. Especially if you can put them in a place where you opponent gets super excited and over extends themselves to kill the lootas.
* ITC wise: Is Recon a trap? Is your list just a castle that cripples the opponent and then moves out? Or are you advancing forward with the boys from turn 1. What secondaries do you take in the mirror?
For me, yeah, I generally don't do Recon. If I do recon it's because I'm supremely confident. I don't move things outside of my kff unless I absolutely must or shooting isn't a concern. So that often means I'm castled for several turn.
usually I reserve a 30 man and hide a 30 man then put the 10 man forward in a place it can hopefully go forward, mob up, and countercharge something mid field. The only things that ever go forward are my 90 grots.
I haven't played with new secondaries so I'm not sure about those. However, I usually took reaper, BB, HH, or Kingslayer and rely on my SAG mek to go kill characters.
* How often do you deep strike your lootas? And with boyz squads, what variables do you consider important enough to force you to deepstrike boyz?
I don't remember the last time I deep struck lootas. Even against 6 wyverns I put them on the table. I'd rather have my opponent throw everything they had in killing lootas (and the grots protecting them). It also very depends on how much damage my lootas can do. Often times the armies that are best at picking up lootas are also armies that lootas are basically just expensive boys against, like pure knights. Sure, shoot everything at my lootas, my lootas aren't gonna do jack in this match up anyway. Oftentimes I'll judge if my opponent is competent before hand and try to bait them with "poorly" placed lootas. I did this at adepticon vs the all flier army. Lootas aren't (super) useful in that match up and I saw he was running his knight towards my army so I put the lootas where I wanted his knight to go and then he traded his knight for lootas that I didn't need anyway.
Deep striking boys is tough, basically I think where the game will be at the beginning of turn 1 and the beginning of turn 2 and where boys will help the most. So for instance, if I'm playing kraken stealers, obviously I'm gonna have stealers in my face turn 1, so I need boys to push back, same with tzangors. If I'm playing against say, cultist spam, what good are boys in deployment zone turn 1? they're out of range of shootas, much less assault. You can usually achieve a similar goal by just putting boys all the way in the back of deployment zone so I'll do that to avoid spending CP but sometimes it can't be helped.
also, side note, I don't use green tide very often, not once at adepticon. I think people just do it reflexively but often times double swinging some unit that's already there is better than getting a new unit in the wrong place.
* What is your opinion on the 15 loota 10+ smasha gun lists that are running around? Do mek guns give over too many kill points?
Mek guns are pretty amazing. I could definitely see it working. I prefer having piles of CP to keep SAG mek and lootas double shooting though. Also the close combat of lootas isn't important in games your winning but it can be amazing in games your losing. Losing that could be rough.
kill points shmill points.
Life is too short to stress a few kill more points.
to quote my favorite fictional character Richard Sharpe "Just get in close and kill the bastards"
Hi guys, sorry for the OT, I´m about to start a small league between friends, 6/8 people, do you have any suggestion for an excel template or program to use?
Cheers
I only really got one question: do you think lists that *don't* feature the Loota Bomb are viable in the competitive scene? Could someone, say, make a competitive Speed Freekz list, or a Green Tide list? In other words, if the SSAG and Lootas were banned tomorrow, what options do you think we'd have to remain competitive?
flandarz wrote: I only really got one question: do you think lists that *don't* feature the Loota Bomb are viable in the competitive scene? Could someone, say, make a competitive Speed Freekz list, or a Green Tide list? In other words, if the SSAG and Lootas were banned tomorrow, what options do you think we'd have to remain competitive?
Currently, I think Orks are the strongest codex by far, broad alliances close the gap considerably but I still lean towards orks beating all of them, allies and all. Clock and fatigue of playing the army has lost me twice as many games as the enemy army.
If you take lootas out, then no, I don't think that's the case anymore. However, your questions was "viable" not "unbeatable". So yes, I think they are viable without lootas but I would likely start looking elsewhere to see if there is a chaos army that might be stronger but I'd likely stick with orks. As of now though, if you gave me a super fluffy 1500 point ork list and slapped lootas plus grots onto it I am likely going 4-2, maybe 5-1 (or 3-3 cause stupid northeast). That's bonkers.
You changed your question halfway through and included the SSAG. I think the SSAG is actually more important to orks remaining viable with different builds than people realize. For 80 points and a warlord trait he solves heavy army and tough characters which are basically the biggest problem with "not loota" builds. I think losing the SSAG would actually be much worse for ork viable competitive builds than losing lootas. He requires CP and that's it, however you want to build an army to give him CP you're free to do it. As opposed to Lootas which force you to write 500 points of your list the same way.
In summary, there definitely are "viable" non loota builds out there in that they can podium at GTs and midsize majors and maybe win with good matchups and some luck.
However, anyone building an ork list (currently) that doesn't start with loota battalion is not prioritizing winning. WHICH IS OKAY, but I don't think anyone who starts a description of their army list with "I don't like lootas so...." is someone you should listen to if your main goal is winning with the ork codex. Also, I think trying to win without them as a personal challenge is okay, like Ben Jurek did. However, (and I think he'd be first to admit) it is playing a bit on hard mode.
Yeah, I forgot about him until halfway in. I just wanted to see what your thoughts were on the subject. I feel like we got a lot of good units, aside from the Loota and SSAG, so I wanted a professional opinion on it. I mean, I like both of those units and I use them, but I like having lots of threats on the field. Dakka Jets and Gorks seem to be pretty solid, and of course Mek Gunz. The eponymous Boy Blob still has a place in most lists too.
In any case, seems like I got my answer. Being: you'll still have a good army without them, but it won't be nearly as strong as it could be with them.
I think the Ork codex is up there in terms of playing mono codex.
Whether it is the strongest one I am not sure. It could be close.
We can still rely on Mek Gunz if we didn't have access to lootas. Morkanaut and gorkanaut can be reliable as well when buffed with strats. Plus killa klaw warboss and boys/weirdboys.
I personally don't think it's close. Orks have everything.
I think pure craftworld with a bunch of wave serpents is a strong single codex counter. However, it's weaker against pretty much everything else in comparison to orks even if the head to head is in eldars favor.
I think if I lost lootas I would definitely include a few more mek guns but probably would lean more on SSAG mek for big stuff and bad moon boys for little stuff.
I haven't tried the nauts, I don't have the models and given the option between infantry and vehicles I always pick infantry because they fit in my case.
I think most folks are including it because it's another target for Kustom Ammo, which gives it a stupid amount of chaff clearing potential. I like it because your opponent can't ignore it to focus on your Lootas/Mek Gunz/SSAG. Drop it in a Tellyporta with some TBs and a KFF Mek inside and throw it in your opponent's face T2. It's tough enough and has enough Wounds that it will take your opponent focusing on it to take it down, then the TBs come out to play.
yeah, I get why you want one. But I am a firm believer in making the entire army similar defensive stats so if I got a naught it would require an entire army shift.
Which is hard to justify with how incredibly strong the army I'm currently running is.
Yup, random big thing in an army of small things is just asking for it to go poof immediately. Everyone brings anti-tank stuff, theyre a fool to try a list that literally has no meltas/lascannons/battlecannon level weapons or something so disgustingly deadly in melee that it works too. Bring nothing those guns want to fight and you can basically ignore a lot of a force, bring 1-2 things and welp you had a big toy for a moment atleast.
Pretty much the only way i run the nauts are if i already got like 6+ other vehicles anyway. It tends to draw all the fire but often hangs on by a shred of life somehow the first turn it gets shot at, while the other vehicles are unharmed
yeah, unless all vehicles are SIGNIFICANTLY better, it's just not worth the trouble of transporting them.
I did have a blast playing 8 serpents and want to do something similar for trukks.
However, that's a local RTT fun army.
With my logic of
The best army includes lootas >
Lootas need lots of grots >
well if I'm getting lots of grots I mine as well get characters to fill out battalions >
If I already have this much infantry I mine as well go full infantry
I only bring a Gork when I'm gonna toss it in a TP for a T2 Ramming Speed Charge, after some solid anti-chaff fire on the screening units. If you can get it into CC, it'll last a lot longer.
I do feel that Gorks and Morks are rather wonderful units. I've had them do a rather delightful amount of damage with or without the dreadmob formation. The only thing holding them back is how geared most armies are to taking out knights, it's closest analog. Perhaps a buff to it's klaw damage would put it in that perfect zone. 5 or 4 damage flat feels about right.
Dreadmob formation doesnt really help a naut's output. Sure the fire twice stratagem is a thing, but i find it hard to field a naut and more than 2 battalions so i got the CP to burn on that on top of the other crap burning 3-6CP a turn lol.
Or by that did you mean a walker wall not the special detachment?
Given that we're talking about nauts now, how does the meka dred hold up to the Morkanaut and Gorkanaut when you're running a Dred Mob list? He has additional resilience with the degrading FNP save and he notably has a better chance actually hitting with most of his weapons thanks to BS4+. However, not being T8 is a big downside and he doesn't hit as hard in melee. The main reason why I ask is because I have 2 of them and I'm wondering if they're worth the bother. I guess at least they can benefit from Kulturs unlike Killa Kanz.
As you said the fact meka dread has kulturs gives it an edge.
(Killa kans are useless) but it depends on its role.
But deffskulls are nice, badmoons ok and evil suns is useful if you want the meka to have a kff and keep in range of those dajumped boys.
* I have trouble using my small amount of grots effectively, I feel like my lootas often remain in exactly my deployment location or I da jump them to commit suicide. However, when I move my grots forward to gain a better foothold they get shot off the board and I'm still trapped with my loota mobility. What am I doing wrong here? How do you consider your loota placement in deployment? And what do you do in game to get more movement, if at all.
I think your army likely plays A LOT different than mine. I have so much (long range) shooting that people need to come at me or I will table them. So it means my loota placement is much easier since they're defensive. You need to use your lootas offensively. When I was playing my renegade open style list I had a lot more grots which allowed me to be aggressive. I would have 30 grots around a defensive position where lootas could start then have 30 grots run up to a better vantage point to be ready to block when I da jumped lootas there.
my general advice is that lootas are so devastating, you often only need them to shoot the right stuff for one turn so suiciding them isn't that bad. Especially if you can put them in a place where you opponent gets super excited and over extends themselves to kill the lootas.
* ITC wise: Is Recon a trap? Is your list just a castle that cripples the opponent and then moves out? Or are you advancing forward with the boys from turn 1. What secondaries do you take in the mirror?
For me, yeah, I generally don't do Recon. If I do recon it's because I'm supremely confident. I don't move things outside of my kff unless I absolutely must or shooting isn't a concern. So that often means I'm castled for several turn.
usually I reserve a 30 man and hide a 30 man then put the 10 man forward in a place it can hopefully go forward, mob up, and countercharge something mid field. The only things that ever go forward are my 90 grots.
I haven't played with new secondaries so I'm not sure about those. However, I usually took reaper, BB, HH, or Kingslayer and rely on my SAG mek to go kill characters.
* How often do you deep strike your lootas? And with boyz squads, what variables do you consider important enough to force you to deepstrike boyz?
I don't remember the last time I deep struck lootas. Even against 6 wyverns I put them on the table. I'd rather have my opponent throw everything they had in killing lootas (and the grots protecting them). It also very depends on how much damage my lootas can do. Often times the armies that are best at picking up lootas are also armies that lootas are basically just expensive boys against, like pure knights. Sure, shoot everything at my lootas, my lootas aren't gonna do jack in this match up anyway. Oftentimes I'll judge if my opponent is competent before hand and try to bait them with "poorly" placed lootas. I did this at adepticon vs the all flier army. Lootas aren't (super) useful in that match up and I saw he was running his knight towards my army so I put the lootas where I wanted his knight to go and then he traded his knight for lootas that I didn't need anyway.
Deep striking boys is tough, basically I think where the game will be at the beginning of turn 1 and the beginning of turn 2 and where boys will help the most. So for instance, if I'm playing kraken stealers, obviously I'm gonna have stealers in my face turn 1, so I need boys to push back, same with tzangors. If I'm playing against say, cultist spam, what good are boys in deployment zone turn 1? they're out of range of shootas, much less assault. You can usually achieve a similar goal by just putting boys all the way in the back of deployment zone so I'll do that to avoid spending CP but sometimes it can't be helped.
also, side note, I don't use green tide very often, not once at adepticon. I think people just do it reflexively but often times double swinging some unit that's already there is better than getting a new unit in the wrong place.
* What is your opinion on the 15 loota 10+ smasha gun lists that are running around? Do mek guns give over too many kill points?
Mek guns are pretty amazing. I could definitely see it working. I prefer having piles of CP to keep SAG mek and lootas double shooting though. Also the close combat of lootas isn't important in games your winning but it can be amazing in games your losing. Losing that could be rough.
kill points shmill points.
Life is too short to stress a few kill more points.
to quote my favorite fictional character Richard Sharpe "Just get in close and kill the bastards"
Really appreciate your response mate, gives me a lot to consider.
* I have trouble using my small amount of grots effectively, I feel like my lootas often remain in exactly my deployment location or I da jump them to commit suicide. However, when I move my grots forward to gain a better foothold they get shot off the board and I'm still trapped with my loota mobility. What am I doing wrong here? How do you consider your loota placement in deployment? And what do you do in game to get more movement, if at all.
I think your army likely plays A LOT different than mine. I have so much (long range) shooting that people need to come at me or I will table them. So it means my loota placement is much easier since they're defensive. You need to use your lootas offensively. When I was playing my renegade open style list I had a lot more grots which allowed me to be aggressive. I would have 30 grots around a defensive position where lootas could start then have 30 grots run up to a better vantage point to be ready to block when I da jumped lootas there.
my general advice is that lootas are so devastating, you often only need them to shoot the right stuff for one turn so suiciding them isn't that bad. Especially if you can put them in a place where you opponent gets super excited and over extends themselves to kill the lootas.
* ITC wise: Is Recon a trap? Is your list just a castle that cripples the opponent and then moves out? Or are you advancing forward with the boys from turn 1. What secondaries do you take in the mirror?
For me, yeah, I generally don't do Recon. If I do recon it's because I'm supremely confident. I don't move things outside of my kff unless I absolutely must or shooting isn't a concern. So that often means I'm castled for several turn.
usually I reserve a 30 man and hide a 30 man then put the 10 man forward in a place it can hopefully go forward, mob up, and countercharge something mid field. The only things that ever go forward are my 90 grots.
I haven't played with new secondaries so I'm not sure about those. However, I usually took reaper, BB, HH, or Kingslayer and rely on my SAG mek to go kill characters.
* How often do you deep strike your lootas? And with boyz squads, what variables do you consider important enough to force you to deepstrike boyz?
I don't remember the last time I deep struck lootas. Even against 6 wyverns I put them on the table. I'd rather have my opponent throw everything they had in killing lootas (and the grots protecting them). It also very depends on how much damage my lootas can do. Often times the armies that are best at picking up lootas are also armies that lootas are basically just expensive boys against, like pure knights. Sure, shoot everything at my lootas, my lootas aren't gonna do jack in this match up anyway. Oftentimes I'll judge if my opponent is competent before hand and try to bait them with "poorly" placed lootas. I did this at adepticon vs the all flier army. Lootas aren't (super) useful in that match up and I saw he was running his knight towards my army so I put the lootas where I wanted his knight to go and then he traded his knight for lootas that I didn't need anyway.
Deep striking boys is tough, basically I think where the game will be at the beginning of turn 1 and the beginning of turn 2 and where boys will help the most. So for instance, if I'm playing kraken stealers, obviously I'm gonna have stealers in my face turn 1, so I need boys to push back, same with tzangors. If I'm playing against say, cultist spam, what good are boys in deployment zone turn 1? they're out of range of shootas, much less assault. You can usually achieve a similar goal by just putting boys all the way in the back of deployment zone so I'll do that to avoid spending CP but sometimes it can't be helped.
also, side note, I don't use green tide very often, not once at adepticon. I think people just do it reflexively but often times double swinging some unit that's already there is better than getting a new unit in the wrong place.
* What is your opinion on the 15 loota 10+ smasha gun lists that are running around? Do mek guns give over too many kill points?
Mek guns are pretty amazing. I could definitely see it working. I prefer having piles of CP to keep SAG mek and lootas double shooting though. Also the close combat of lootas isn't important in games your winning but it can be amazing in games your losing. Losing that could be rough.
kill points shmill points.
Life is too short to stress a few kill more points.
to quote my favorite fictional character Richard Sharpe "Just get in close and kill the bastards"
I want to thank you as well, despite me not asking questions (not playing orks competitively anymore), your responses are very interesting to read.
No, I still love 'dem boyz. But I hate moving loads of infantry, which I have found mandatory for this edition's orks. In previous editions I have always run boyz in transports, but as neither trukk boyz nor battlewagon boyz are viable anymore, that's out of option. In perspective, even my 5th edition kan wall was only running 80 boyz - considered more than you could possibly kill in a game at that time.
So I'm currently aiming for a buggy/walker based army which I will take for a spin whenever possible, but I'm aware that I will not be able to beat an opponent who gets serious with it. So when it comes to details of ITC missions and beating castellan lists, I simply keep my mouth shut - I simply have no experience with that and I'm not huge fan of backseat advice.
In general, Death Guard are much more relaxed to play in large games and competitive matches, as you have no issues with running out of time and I feel that you need to pay a lot less attention to details like movement, piling etc in order to win games. A 2000 points game of Death Guard feels like a walk in the park, while the same game as orks makes you feel like you were run over by a bonekrusha. So kudos to anyone playing four or five games in a row, but it's simply not for me.
In the end, both Death Guard and Orks are green, and green is da best!
Jidmah wrote: No, I still love 'dem boyz. But I hate moving loads of infantry, which I have found mandatory for this edition's orks. In previous editions I have always run boyz in transports, but as neither trukk boyz nor battlewagon boyz are viable anymore, that's out of option. In perspective, even my 5th edition kan wall was only running 80 boyz - considered more than you could possibly kill in a game at that time.
So I'm currently aiming for a buggy/walker based army which I will take for a spin whenever possible, but I'm aware that I will not be able to beat an opponent who gets serious with it. So when it comes to details of ITC missions and beating castellan lists, I simply keep my mouth shut - I simply have no experience with that and I'm not huge fan of backseat advice.
In general, Death Guard are much more relaxed to play in large games and competitive matches, as you have no issues with running out of time and I feel that you need to pay a lot less attention to details like movement, piling etc in order to win games. A 2000 points game of Death Guard feels like a walk in the park, while the same game as orks makes you feel like you were run over by a bonekrusha.
So kudos to anyone playing four or five games in a row, but it's simply not for me.
In the end, both Death Guard and Orks are green, and green is da best!
I totally get that. I play a buggy based ork army in pick up games not because ti is the strongest, but because it is fin and the low model count makes for quick games. currently it is 3 bone breaker wagons, kbb, scrapjet, sjd, defkilla trike, warboss on a bike, 3 unit of meganobz, boss zag, plus a wierdboy and mek gunz. boyz just end up takign time to move, shoot ineffectively, and die in droves and run in morale unless i get placements right which ijust adds to time taken in movement phase.
I have a custodes army fopr when i want to take it easy and just bring a lunchbox sized army instead of a 27 gallon tote full of orks.
I just play da Boyz, but I feel your pain on the model count. Us and Nidz are just real model heavy armies. But I'll probably stick with Orkz, partially because I'm on a limited budget and buying 2 or 3 armies of models is gonna easily break that, but also because I like em. They got great lore and are just fun to play.
Yeah model count has always been a downside. Even for my lists with Mork/gork's I have 70 ish boys and 30 grots to place and move. Gets kind of meh having to move them every phase. My 2k list for this weekend cuts down a bit more on boys and adds an extra gork/mork. I own 3.
That's why i use movement trays and don#t try to maximize every boy into optimal position. Does mean rebasing to 32mm is out of the question. But the non-optimization means end result isn't that much different to 32mm bases likely anyway
How does list-building advice change in a PL environment? Local store is doing an escalation league starting at 25PL, and since it's official GW i'll be limited to infantry models (I can't stomach GW prices for their vehicles). I was wondering if Nobz start making sense in PL land, or if the Loota remains king?
Coh Magnussen wrote: How does list-building advice change in a PL environment? Local store is doing an escalation league starting at 25PL, and since it's official GW i'll be limited to infantry models (I can't stomach GW prices for their vehicles). I was wondering if Nobz start making sense in PL land, or if the Loota remains king?
Nobz make sense in any setting, if anything they get worse with PL since you cannot run them cheap. However, at 7 PL you basically get their upgrade for free, so nothing prevents you from decking them out with killsaws and combi-rokkits, cybrok and gretchin, to have a true all-round unit that is dangerous to about anything. The biggest challenge here is getting all the bits required.
You should still be running boyz and gretchin in addition though, as you do need those CP. Lootas are a good idea in any kind of scenario.
Coh Magnussen wrote: How does list-building advice change in a PL environment? Local store is doing an escalation league starting at 25PL, and since it's official GW i'll be limited to infantry models (I can't stomach GW prices for their vehicles). I was wondering if Nobz start making sense in PL land, or if the Loota remains king?
Nobz make sense in any setting, if anything they get worse with PL since you cannot run them cheap. However, at 7 PL you basically get their upgrade for free, so nothing prevents you from decking them out with killsaws and combi-rokkits, cybrok and gretchin, to have a true all-round unit that is dangerous to about anything. The biggest challenge here is getting all the bits required.
You should still be running boyz and gretchin in addition though, as you do need those CP. Lootas are a good idea in any kind of scenario.
If you didn't pay the premium for traktor kannons would they be worth it? PL can be good if you are spamming them. I assume that the lower priced smasha guns would be hurt by PL.
Three Smasha Guns or a Souped-Up SAG? Pros and cons for both choices.
Also, is it absolutely necessary to run Bad Moons if you're planning on using the SSAG? Talking about a fairly casual setting with a rare dabble into friendly tournaments.
Weazel wrote: Three Smasha Guns or a Souped-Up SAG? Pros and cons for both choices.
Also, is it absolutely necessary to run Bad Moons if you're planning on using the SSAG? Talking about a fairly casual setting with a rare dabble into friendly tournaments.
For 2nd not really no. In fact it's not even best one. Death skull one causes slightly more damage in average and has bigger chance to one shot knights than bad moon one until you reach to 3++/5+++(vs mortals) at which point odds are fairly same(rather small). Against 5++/5+++(mortals) death skull one shots most reliably and causes most wounds in average.
edit: above with assumption of +1 to wound vs vehicle warlord trait. Don't recall did lack of that affect it in bad moon's favour
I think tneva ran the math on it, and the differences between Bad Moonz, Deathskulls, and Freebooterz with the SSAG is like less than 1 Wound. So just run him how ya want.
Well wound is a wound and one thing deathskull did spike noticably vs bad moon was one shotting knight. Well except 3++ one presumably because s11+ mortal wounds significance grows over reqular wounds so while odds are small bad moon gets help from those 5+ hits causing mortal wounds.
Well I'm running Evil Sunz so glad to hear BM is not mandatory. I was actually thinking about the double tap stratagem above anything. So overall you'd say that the SSAG is superior to three smasha guns in most situations?
SSAG is better for taking out single, high T, AP, and W targets. Either solo or as a small unit. Smashas are better for handling multiple mobs of elite infantry or light vehicles. They're also slightly more "survivable", if only because they have a higher T, more W, and separate into individual units when deployed. And only if your opponent has a sniper who can reliably target the SSAG.
Really, you can't go wrong with either one, and seems like most folks are including both in their lists.
flandarz wrote: SSAG is better for taking out single, high T, AP, and W targets. Either solo or as a small unit. Smashas are better for handling multiple mobs of elite infantry or light vehicles. They're also slightly more "survivable", if only because they have a higher T, more W, and separate into individual units when deployed. And only if your opponent has a sniper who can reliably target the SSAG.
Really, you can't go wrong with either one, and seems like most folks are including both in their lists.
Just also don't forget to give him the warlord trait for monsters and vehicle targetting.
vercingatorix wrote: yeah, unless all vehicles are SIGNIFICANTLY better, it's just not worth the trouble of transporting them.
I did have a blast playing 8 serpents and want to do something similar for trukks.
However, that's a local RTT fun army.
With my logic of
The best army includes lootas >
Lootas need lots of grots >
well if I'm getting lots of grots I mine as well get characters to fill out battalions >
If I already have this much infantry I mine as well go full infantry
Thanks for hopping into this thread to answer questions. Just getting back into the game with my old 5th edition ork army and your lists have been great references. A few questions about your recent list:
1. What's the deal with the big shootas in the Kommando squads?
2. Bad Moonz vs Evil Sunz - did you move away from Evil Sunz because your boyz are playing a different role now?
3. Mad Dok Grotsnik - you seem pretty hyped on him. Is it the ability to fall back and charge (on top of the normal painboy rules)?
tneva82 wrote: Well wound is a wound and one thing deathskull did spike noticably vs bad moon was one shotting knight. Well except 3++ one presumably because s11+ mortal wounds significance grows over reqular wounds so while odds are small bad moon gets help from those 5+ hits causing mortal wounds.
The variance in the SSAG's results is so vast that one point difference of damage on average will probably never have an actual effect on your games.
true, but the biggest issue I have with the SSAG and SAG's in general, is getting the damned things to hit at all. Give the Big Mek a 10pt Git Finda upgrade and suddenly its perfect. For a SAG if you roll less than 4 there is a decent chance you miss with every shot. For the SSAG if you roll less than 7 there is a good chance you won't get more than 2 hits. If you can't give them the +1 BS change the weapons profile to be 2D3 for SAG's and 6+D6 for SSAG. If im already paying CP to get the stupid formation that gives you the SSAG I think its fair to ensure it gets at least a few shots off a turn.
Even on average, it's the difference between 7 wounds and 8 wounds. Nice to have, but not as vast a difference as Bad Moonz Lootaz vs unKultured Lootaz. You could play your SSAG as any Kultur and he's gonna perform nearly as well regardless.
On average, yes, but as the chances of actually hitting that average is so low, the effect is almost non-existent.
Well if you want to be throwing 14% off that freely be my guest.ain't my games you weaken.
Guess you would be saying flat 3+ charge on d6 over reqular ork charge would be no big deal.
First of all, you are being rude. Again. Over something you obviously didn't understand. Again.
Second, you aren't weakening your games either. Because the chance of that extra wound extra happening is so low it will only matter every one hundred games or so.
Averages for something as the SSAG have literally no meaning whatsoever. If you really want meaningful information you need to calculate the chance of every single result happening, which would be the percentage chance for every single result from 0 wounds to 456 (which is the theoretical maximum amount of damage the SSAG can do). Until you have done that for both deff skulls and bad moons, any conclusions you draw from just the averages are meaningless.
Go take a statistics class before acting all high and mighty over something that's almost as good as a guess value.
I just wanna say you also got to look at the rest of the Detachment when choosing the best Kultur. The minor benefit given to the SSAG for Deathskullz might be outweighed by a greater benefit for your Gork when going Bad Moonz, for example. Can't look at the SSAG in a void, no more than you can look at any other unit by itself.
Jidmah wrote: No, I still love 'dem boyz. But I hate moving loads of infantry, which I have found mandatory for this edition's orks. In previous editions I have always run boyz in transports, but as neither trukk boyz nor battlewagon boyz are viable anymore, that's out of option. In perspective, even my 5th edition kan wall was only running 80 boyz - considered more than you could possibly kill in a game at that time.
So I'm currently aiming for a buggy/walker based army which I will take for a spin whenever possible, but I'm aware that I will not be able to beat an opponent who gets serious with it. So when it comes to details of ITC missions and beating castellan lists, I simply keep my mouth shut - I simply have no experience with that and I'm not huge fan of backseat advice.
In general, Death Guard are much more relaxed to play in large games and competitive matches, as you have no issues with running out of time and I feel that you need to pay a lot less attention to details like movement, piling etc in order to win games. A 2000 points game of Death Guard feels like a walk in the park, while the same game as orks makes you feel like you were run over by a bonekrusha.
So kudos to anyone playing four or five games in a row, but it's simply not for me.
In the end, both Death Guard and Orks are green, and green is da best!
I hear you mate, and sometimes just playing Morty means the game has far fewer decisions to be made. The boyz moving is one thing, all those boys can take a while sure, but the decisions are hard too, da jump every turn means you really got to know what your plan is because your movement is just too fluid. Meanwhile my deamon army just charges forward until one of us dies. Sometimes cruise control 40k is the best 40k.
hollow one wrote: I hear you mate, and sometimes just playing Morty means the game has far fewer decisions to be made. The boyz moving is one thing, all those boys can take a while sure, but the decisions are hard too, da jump every turn means you really got to know what your plan is because your movement is just too fluid. Meanwhile my deamon army just charges forward until one of us dies. Sometimes cruise control 40k is the best 40k.
Agree. If you invest a lot into orks, you gain a lot out of them. If you don't invest or do a couple of mistakes, you will get your but handed - that's how it always has been and how it always will be. Orks don't give you anything for free, but they heavily reward skill.
Death Guard, on the other hand, hands out a huge amount of power for free which you can build upon with a hand full of simple tactics that have little counter-play. When I started them I applied basic ork tactics to them and it felt like I have no idea what I was doing, but the army was basically running itself. I have yet to lose a single game with them (a couple of draws though). They really play like orks with less models that refuse to die. DP => Warboss, pox walkers => slugga boyz, plague marines => shoota boyz, drones => skorchas, PBC => battlewagon. I don't run Mortarion that often though, he is too easy to counter. Even when you can't kill him, just feed him a distraction unit and spread your army out. He will struggle to make his 470 points back even if he gets to rampage across the board unhindered.
If I were to play tournaments or leagues for big prices again, orks would probably be my choice to do so, just because the army has so much more potential. But for 10 bucks of store credit I you play the army that is more fun to play.
vercingatorix wrote: yeah, unless all vehicles are SIGNIFICANTLY better, it's just not worth the trouble of transporting them.
I did have a blast playing 8 serpents and want to do something similar for trukks.
However, that's a local RTT fun army.
With my logic of
The best army includes lootas >
Lootas need lots of grots >
well if I'm getting lots of grots I mine as well get characters to fill out battalions >
If I already have this much infantry I mine as well go full infantry
Thanks for hopping into this thread to answer questions. Just getting back into the game with my old 5th edition ork army and your lists have been great references. A few questions about your recent list:
1. What's the deal with the big shootas in the Kommando squads?
2. Bad Moonz vs Evil Sunz - did you move away from Evil Sunz because your boyz are playing a different role now?
3. Mad Dok Grotsnik - you seem pretty hyped on him. Is it the ability to fall back and charge (on top of the normal painboy rules)?
1. What's the deal with the big shootas in the Kommando squads?
Since they're deffskulls and not evil sunz, I found myself failing lots of charges and never using burnas. So instead I plop them on an objective or in cover or preferably both and they plink away at things while staying obsec and laying down fire. 6 shots with deffskull rerolls is functionally 10-11 shots so they can be incredibly annoying to my opponents.
2. Bad Moonz vs Evil Sunz - did you move away from Evil Sunz because your boyz are playing a different role now?
Yeah, basically I found that games coming down to 8 inch charges to kill chaffe with evil sunz wasn't needed when I could just drop bad moons big shootas and kill the chaffe guaranteed.
3. Mad Dok Grotsnik - you seem pretty hyped on him. Is it the ability to fall back and charge (on top of the normal painboy rules)?
He is a back up warboss. Also, charging in your opponents charge phase can be game changing if you set it up properly. The T5 and 5++ makes him surprisingly durable as well.
The reason I took him at first though was giving fnp to every ork regardless of clan. Then I started figuring out all the other awesome stuff he does and he has become my favorite unit.
Definitely missed that bit. How practical is it to actually get it though? Any infantry (including other characters) shuts off that ability, and i'd be kinda surprised to see him chomp a unit on his own during your combat phase and then charge in the enemy turn. Too bad you cant give him Da Killa Klaw even though he has no fancy named weapon of his own. Relic rules just say no named characters, Mad Dok is literally the only one that doesnt have a special toy to his own.
Vineheart01 wrote: Definitely missed that bit.
How practical is it to actually get it though? Any infantry (including other characters) shuts off that ability, and i'd be kinda surprised to see him chomp a unit on his own during your combat phase and then charge in the enemy turn.
I basically happens whenever someone falls back from him. Triggering the rule during your turn is very easy, just advance 3" away from your other models and then have him charge after advancing.
Vineheart01 wrote: Definitely missed that bit.
How practical is it to actually get it though? Any infantry (including other characters) shuts off that ability, and i'd be kinda surprised to see him chomp a unit on his own during your combat phase and then charge in the enemy turn.
I basically happens whenever someone falls back from him. Triggering the rule during your turn is very easy, just advance 3" away from your other models and then have him charge after advancing.
Which is nothing different then when he would have charged by himself.
Since he has WS2+ his claw hits on a 3+. Not too bad. An interesting character indeed.
Vineheart01 wrote: Definitely missed that bit. How practical is it to actually get it though? Any infantry (including other characters) shuts off that ability, and i'd be kinda surprised to see him chomp a unit on his own during your combat phase and then charge in the enemy turn.
I basically happens whenever someone falls back from him. Triggering the rule during your turn is very easy, just advance 3" away from your other models and then have him charge after advancing.
Which is nothing different then when he would have charged by himself.
He is not able to advance&charge or fall back&charge when an ork model is within 3" of him. The advance roll helps getting away from other models.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I just completed the big survey and wrote that they should improve trukk boyz and battlewagon boyz as well as that they should find a way to make horde units more fun to run.
It's ork infantry models, so he can hang out with biker guys.
Y'all are correct in thinking it's difficult to make happen. It tends to take a turn of planning.
But turn 6 is coming and you know you're opponent is going to try to get line breaker by running some stupid unit into your deployment zone.
Chances are they'll have to scratch points off their score sheet as they had already counted on their farseer or whatever getting line breaker until mad dok went and riggidy wrecked her.
Same works for objectives, he is a VERY aggressive objective holder. Sometimes a bit too aggressive as he'll run off objectives lol.
I had it him murder an ethereal trying to get a linebreaker maelstrom card but then he got himself killed trying to charge 2 riptides by himself that my opponent moved into range. It can work both ways.
Just wanted to post a quick Freebooterz list for anyones thoughts on whether it would work.
The thought occurred to me that Freebooterz actually scale best in high point games. 1500 points might be pushing it.
Single bat as I figure Freebooterz seem a little less reliant on CP than the rest.
One scalpel short of a medpack: if, at the start of the charge phase, there are no ORK INFANTRY units within 3" of Mad Dok Grotsnik, he will attempt to charge the nearest enemy unit, if there is one within 12". He will do this even if he advanced of Fell Back this turn, but not if he is already within 1" of an enemy.
In case anyone was unclear on the wording of it.
.
Also how does this work if the enemy unit has unit that want to declare a charge. What would be the correct order here? All theirs first or alternating?
mhalko1 wrote: One scalpel short of a medpack: if, at the start of the charge phase, there are no ORK INFANTRY units within 3" of Mad Dok Grotsnik, he will attempt to charge the nearest enemy unit, if there is one within 12". He will do this even if he advanced of Fell Back this turn, but not if he is already within 1" of an enemy.
In case anyone was unclear on the wording of it.
.
Also how does this work if the enemy unit has unit that want to declare a charge. What would be the correct order here? All theirs first or alternating?
I think One Scalpel Short takes priority since it states " at the start of the charge phase". It should go off before any charges are declared.
Yeah since it says start he goes off first. Which also unfortunately means if you dont watch it he will be the first to charge into something with some nasty overwatch.
Just a rumour so maybe nothing(this is 3rd hand info at best) but might be upcoming faq makes mob up boyz only. Meganobz and loota bombs getting hit.
If true happy didn't paint extra 10 bad moon lootas. Had been keeping of that precisely to check does it survive spring faq
Automatically Appended Next Post: Short battle report. Took evil sun bat with trike, warboss, 10 nobs(6 big choppas, rest weapons were all choppas) in bonebreaka with warboss, 2x30 boyz, 10 grots. Death skull battallion with relic sag and weirdboy, 30 boyz, 2x10 grots, 2xscrapjet, shockjump. Also 2 smasha gun, 2 traktor kannon and KMK.
I was up against blood angel/custodian/knight combo with crusader, 3 basic primaris guys, scouts, librarian dreadnought, big primaris dreadnought, 10 death company+lemartess, 3x3custodians plus their captain.
I had list with plenty of AT and was expecting infantry heavy blood angels(list had been made in advance before I knew whom I would be playing) especially as after last game SSAG making wreck of 3 vehicles in first 3 turns he had muttered about more infantry. So much to my surprise he brought in knight and 2 dreadnoughts...And I had quite a lot of AT firepower....Oops.
From CA we got the infernal scenario where you pick 2 cards for each card and opponent decides which to pick. Unsurprisingly neither scored anything on first 2 turns except first strike for me. I have now have had chance to play 2 of the new scenarios and not impressed. CA2017 scenarios were better except for maybe new deployment and first strike(def).
Anyway my turn 1(I went first) bonebreaka advanced and charged his dreadnought. Trike couldn't due to terrain blocking so it was either bonebreaka or deffkilla who has to try 11" charge. Evil sun boyz mob was da jumped and charged. Took out that dread. However big news was in shooting phase. After all else had been firing inefficiently(5+ saves were going okay) SAG had nice range and LOS to the knight. He used stratagem for 3++. First was some 6 S6 shots and got 4 wounds in. Well let's try again. 8 S11 shots that translated to 7 hits nuked that one...
Damn. I was hoping for some damage but I have to say I felt bad for this guy. For one for some reason my SAG is always ridiculous against him. He's getting real trauma at him(I promised next time I won't bring him along). For second he got his knight painted up and first game he literally gets to do nothing. And game had just swung in my favour big time on some <5% chance of doing.
Should have offered for him to change the house on spot to give him at least chance to use the 5+++ vs mortals stratagem.
His turn he got lib dread into bonebreaka but overall not much. 4 custodian charges needing 7(3 units) and 8(1 unit) failed. I suggested he should try to charge with primaris marines into flank of my evil suns. They will eventually die yes but evil sun boyz won't be charging his custodians. I think this is sound idea. 5 basic marines lost preventing custodians from being charged by >20 boyz is okay deal I think. Worked well with several orks dying for like 1 marine.
Turn 2 nobz disembark and charge 1 squad plus captain. Killed 1 custodian but got my ass royally kicked in following 2 combat rounds. Sweet mork and gork! Okay I was expecting this but had hoped to at least cause a dent and it was impressive to watch those custodians slice and dice nobz. My warboss charged lib dreadnought and survived even his counter charge when I got careless with order of attacks. He killed the dreadnought in return.
Custodians killed and destroyed warboss and battlewagon. Death company came in and sliced and diced through evil suns. Incidentally one of the delaying marines still was standing...Good charge from them indeed.
Turn 3. Nob in combat with 2 custodians fled into objective I needed to defend and all the rokkits and whatnot I had cleared the 2 custodians. Evil sun mob #2 charged marines in ruin to take control of another defend objective. Trike charged into custodian captain and regular guy. Stupidly attacked captain and didn't do much but die. And deathskull boyz da jumped near death company wiping them out.
His turn 3 custodian captain charged evil sun boyz and died and lemartes died as well. With 1 primaris marine and 1 custodians and 2 sniper scouts left we called it game.
Not much to note except when you roll hot you are hard to beat. Especially when opponent rolls 1's all the time.
Have to say had hoped for better game myself. He's fun opponent but the knight nuke basically put him on backfoot from the get-go.
Painted unit syndrome. You paint new unit it always fails in first game!
That wouldn't surprise me, and seeing as that potential fix has been mentioned/suggested way back by users on this forum (including myself) months back I almost dare to dream they got it from here and as such listened to the buffs suggested as well
Yeah won't be loosing sleep myself either IF that's true.
Of course that's big IF seeing it's just rumour. No point doing nothing major yet but IF you were planning to buy and paint 10 lootas to get that 25 but don't need them soon might be worth painting something else waiting for FAQ. It's out soon(week, 2 max) so if you can wait for that much might save bit of money and time if you don't need 25 lootas if that mob up is removed.
No point doing further reactions yet.
Since I had been delaying getting those 10 for number of reasons won't have major impact on my armies(I do have 30 lootas but they are for 2 different klans so weren't mobbing up anyway). Never got around that 20 meganob bomb either(buying 20 meganob for 1 klan is also bit of ...awww. Not made out of gold ).
Only use for the mob up I have had is that 30+10 boyz and that still works and even that is rare for me as I like to have the endless tide stratagem available!
Well the last spring FAQ (called big FAQ then, this is just a FAQ now) was released on the 16th last year, so a year to the day. However Adepticon was a few days earlier then but there also hasn't been any rumours AFAIK about GWs testing team getting thrashed this year (unlike the flyrant spam of last year) at adepticon.
My longwinded point? I really, really hope the FAQ is out this week. I dunno I'm just stuck in a sort of limbo where I don't know what I want to paint or buy right now since the FAQ is probably really close and I might as well wait a few more days. Getting antsy though
Yeah it should be out soonish. This week is good candinate indeed. Maybe next week(though next week monday being holiday there cuts options a bit). Week after that would be very late.
Not best of times to add anything new indeed. Especially if it's something expensive and might get hurt by FAQ. Would suck buy and paint 20 meganobz intending the meganob bomb and then have it go poof in FAQ That's not even cheap squad money wise!
If true though would be nice if orks got some internal balance fixes as well as that nerf though. New buggies could do with point drops for example.
Vineheart01 wrote: So...i ran a freeboota list with all 6 buggies just to say i did and i noticed something about the squigbuggy i totally misread.
"Each of this model's crew is armed with a squiglauncha, shotgun, and squigstikks"
I originally thought it had 1 heavy launcher and 1 regular. That thing has 5 crew so it has 5 launchers.
Im actually curious if it has a place then because thats a surprising amount of dakka, even if its not that strong.
Unfortunately, I think when they refer to "model" here they are talking about each rukkatrukk itself (since you can squadron them), so when they say its crew its plural not for each individual model on the buggy itself. Otherwise I would say it would be a more palatable as a choice even with its current price point.
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flandarz wrote: More useful Grots would be nice. Right now, all they're good for is generating CP and Shielding Lootas.
Yeah, I feel like they really missed an opportunity to give them Grot Kultur that makes them more useful, and even maybe an offensive stratagem to give them something beyond being meatshields, like suicide grots. I mean we already have a suicide scarab stratagem for Necrons that can cause mortal wounds, I could see the grots doing the same.
thats pretty sad if thats what it means (i honestly couldnt tell if they mean each actual crew had it or crew as a whole, since i cant think of a single other vehicle that has the crew called out).
Even using 5 shotguns and 5 squiglaunchers, it still felt overpriced. Thats how bad that thing is lol
Vineheart01 wrote: thats pretty sad if thats what it means (i honestly couldnt tell if they mean each actual crew had it or crew as a whole, since i cant think of a single other vehicle that has the crew called out).
Even using 5 shotguns and 5 squiglaunchers, it still felt overpriced. Thats how bad that thing is lol
No worries, GW has really odd wording choice as usual. And yeah, it is still undergunned even with the extra shots from the guns if you interpret that way.. Beyond all else I am still confused by how it doesn't have a better CC profile considering it literally has a bunch of squigs onboard that should chomp the living daylights out of anything engaged with it. I figured at least 2D6 extra attacks at S4 AP-1 or something.
I'll be honest, if they nerf Mob up its going to ruin orkz competitively. The only thing holding the ork competitive scene together right now is the SSAG and Loota bomb. reduce the bomb to 15 models and suddenly its not as justified spending 4-5CP a turn on it which makes the lootas usable in the first place. Lootas by themselves are heavily over priced and require ablative wounds in the form of Grots to last past turn 1.
On the other hand if they change the wording to mean 1 unit has to be boys and the other can be anything else I would be completely fine Would be great to be able to hide a mob of 5-10 Tankbustas in 30 boyz, might make them foot mobile.
flandarz wrote: More useful Grots would be nice. Right now, all they're good for is generating CP and Shielding Lootas.
Even just giving the non-infantry grots the existing kultures would be nice... Kanz and grot tanks deserve a chance to see the field! (though if they gave the infantry grots kultur too, my frebootin' grotzwagon crew could be hitting on 2's... talk about dangerous in large numbers!)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wait -- if my battlewagon gets +1 to hit due to the freeboota kultur being triggered, does that pass to the mob of 20 grots inside the wagon in spite of their being unkultured gits?
yeah....technically it would because for transports the unit inside doesnt care about the kulture since they technically dont benefit from it, due to it being a range-from-another-unit thing.
But that is like the ONE THING the Open Topped rule does transfer is +1 to hit, which is a modifier and not excluded.
I try to charge the battlewagon into combat, then have the grots use their pistols to shoot into whatever the battlewagon is deff-rollin'. Once the battlewagon pops (hopefully exploding, but so far no joy) they end up getting slaughtered in close combat.
It's terrible but super funny and then when they actually do something, a Grot Hero is born! (Git Snivel once wounded a demon prince in close combat before most of his fellow gretchin died and he ran away, but his legend grew and now he leads a Kill-Team of his very own)
So I have been trying to decide whether to run 2 units of 5 flashgitz or one unit of 10. There are advantages to both, my question is which one is better? Have at it warbosses.
I think the 2 of 5 is better, if only because you can get Gitfindas on both Kaptins, which means more reliable shooting. It also doubles your chances of shooting again via rolling a 6.
I posted my most recent list I played against a horde daemon list. It absolutely wrecked. You can find it in the army list section but I took a list with 2 morks and a gork at 2k expecting to fight a big bug nid list and got scared when a horde daemon list was put on the table.
Even still I may have tabled by turn 3/4. double shooting gork with more dakka wiped 20+ daemons a turn. 18 shots proccing on 5+ for DDD and shooting twice. the morks were shooting at seekers since the big monster characters were hiding. daemon prince and belakor. Also ran trukk boys with shootas and DDD was helping them kill around 5 or 6 a turn. thanks mainly to t3 daemons. SSAG was a little wasted and had to shoot at seekers also because they are 2W each. but he got the daemon prince too close and I had the DS warlord trait and was able to snipe him even with nurgle disgustingly resilient.
Overall I started out scared but my DDD extra hits were proccing like crazy and putting out so much damage.
flandarz wrote: I think the 2 of 5 is better, if only because you can get Gitfindas on both Kaptins, which means more reliable shooting. It also doubles your chances of shooting again via rolling a 6.
You might roll 6's more often but only half will shoot then so in the end it's about same.
But the big decider is do you expect to use stratagems for them or not. If you have grots for them and no lootas to grot screen then 10 makes sense to protect them from shooting. Or if you expect to have to shoot at -2 or worse targets at which point more dakka is more efficient for 10 strong units.
Theres also the Loot It! stratagem. They have 4+ armor, if their wheels go boom they can go 3+. If its all 10, it happens at once, but if its 2x5 then half of them have to go without for a turn.
As you can elect to shoot parts of the unit at different targets, 10 would be best. Smaller units might suffer more from Ld tests (where did they get the FG Ld figure from?) and take up more CP.
Moriarty wrote: As you can elect to shoot parts of the unit at different targets, 10 would be best. Smaller units might suffer more from Ld tests (where did they get the FG Ld figure from?) and take up more CP.
Uuuh small units is good for LD. By the time you suffer enough casualties morale is worry you are already dead.
5 flash git suffers 1 casualty. d6+1 vs LD6. No big deal.
5 flash gits suffer 4 casualty. d6+4 vs LD6. You lose your last one on 3+.
10 flash gits suffer 1 casualty. Okay no casualties.
10 flash gits suffer 4 casualties. d6+4 vs LD6. You suffer 1-4 extra casualties on 3+.
And of course either way you can have say unit of boyz nearby to get extra LD.
Reasons to be smaller units would be survivability(opponent can't just fire one unit and potentially wipe them all. And split fire is either going to leave survivors or wasted firepower) and ability to be at 2 different places. One unit can only cover one area. 2 units can cover 2.
Stratagem efficiency is biggest reason for big unit and that is lot dependant on what you aim to use them for and what your army is. Grot screen usage is irrelevant if you have bad moon lootas around as they are the priority for the grot screen for example. And if you aren't going to be shooting at -2 to hit or worse targets more dakka is waste of CP for them as well.
When you plan to put flash gits inside a transport, units of 5 are just better because you get more kaptins - you can't use stratagems on them unless the wagon pops and then they are dead meat anyways. If someone already bothered to destroy their ride, he is not going to ignore them afterwards. If you are not running a freeboota force, stratagems are out of question anyways, since grot shield would require you to bring freeboota grots to shield them and loot it only works if the transport is a freeboota transport.
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Coh Magnussen wrote: I try to charge the battlewagon into combat, then have the grots use their pistols to shoot into whatever the battlewagon is deff-rollin'. Once the battlewagon pops (hopefully exploding, but so far no joy) they end up getting slaughtered in close combat.
The thing is, pistols only ever matter when you are still in combat during your next shooting phase. No one in their right mind will stay in combat with a deff roll unless they can kill it. In either case, pistols won't matter.
The only useful passengers for battlewagons are tankbustas and flash gits.
Jidmah wrote: How did those gretchin get closer to the shooting unit than a battlewagon?
Walking alongside? You have battlewagon filled with shooty unit(s). Rushing full speed into combat isn't exactly best ideas. Stand back and shoot. If your ride gets blown to bits get behind the grot line. You don't even need whole bw to be behind grots for that to work.
Or yeah let's rush into combat with shooty unit ASAP...That's going to end up spectacularly well Flashgits aren't exactly melee power house so the further you are from enemy the better it is.
Jidmah wrote: How did those gretchin get closer to the shooting unit than a battlewagon?
Walking alongside? You have battlewagon filled with shooty unit(s). Rushing full speed into combat isn't exactly best ideas. Stand back and shoot. If your ride gets blown to bits get behind the grot line. You don't even need whole bw to be behind grots for that to work.
Or yeah let's rush into combat with shooty unit ASAP...That's going to end up spectacularly well Flashgits aren't exactly melee power house so the further you are from enemy the better it is.
Sorry for assuming that you have fielded flash gits at least once. I fall for you actually knowing what you are talking about all the time.
"Stand back and shoot" is such an awesome idea for 24" guns, I wish I would have thought about that one myself.
That 24" range is why I personally never liked using Flash Gitz. Their weapons are too strong for you to want to fire them at chaff so you'll want to move forward, but being within 24" of a juicy target means you're probably 10" away from chaff that can tie you up (same issue with the shokkjump dragsta, although that one has it worse).
I'm fine with their guns being heavy but the range should be 36" IMO, I'd much rather have that over a point drop. Although, to be fair, I'm not playing Freebootas so I'm not getting their max potential anyways.
flandarz wrote: More useful Grots would be nice. Right now, all they're good for is generating CP and Shielding Lootas.
Even just giving the non-infantry grots the existing kultures would be nice... Kanz and grot tanks deserve a chance to see the field! (though if they gave the infantry grots kultur too, my frebootin' grotzwagon crew could be hitting on 2's... talk about dangerous in large numbers!)
I am really hoping that one day they will bring in a Grot Rebels clan in a White Dwarf magazine or something. Make them where the only non-Grot infantry units they can only take are HQs then give the their own culture and allow stratagems to work on Gretchin units (Big and Mek Gunz, Grot Tanks, Killa Kanz).
What would be absolutely hilarious is if GW made it where we could take any non-named HQ and infantry but the clan kulture was something that changed the stats of all of our non-gretchin infantry to become Gretchin and give them -1 to strength, toughness, and weapon skill but +1 to BS and require us to kitbash the units w Gretchin. Grot Kommandos, for stormboyz you could use that one Gretchin w jetpack as well as the Grot in the rockkit that come in the box, grot lootas, Grots w rokkit launcha, mega-grotz, etc.
While only a few of us would actually build these models, I would jump at the chance to.
flandarz wrote: More useful Grots would be nice. Right now, all they're good for is generating CP and Shielding Lootas.
Even just giving the non-infantry grots the existing kultures would be nice... Kanz and grot tanks deserve a chance to see the field! (though if they gave the infantry grots kultur too, my frebootin' grotzwagon crew could be hitting on 2's... talk about dangerous in large numbers!)
I am really hoping that one day they will bring in a Grot Rebels clan in a White Dwarf magazine or something. Make them where the only non-Grot infantry units they can only take are HQs then give the their own culture and allow stratagems to work on Gretchin units (Big and Mek Gunz, Grot Tanks, Killa Kanz).
What would be absolutely hilarious is if GW made it where we could take any non-named HQ and infantry but the clan kulture was something that changed the stats of all of our non-gretchin infantry to become Gretchin and give them -1 to strength, toughness, and weapon skill but +1 to BS and require us to kitbash the units w Gretchin. Grot Kommandos, for stormboyz you could use that one Gretchin w jetpack as well as the Grot in the rockkit that come in the box, grot lootas, Grots w rokkit launcha, mega-grotz, etc.
While only a few of us would actually build these models, I would jump at the chance to.
While a WD expansion on grots would be great I think a vigilus style detachment might be more likely (though not necessarily likely even then). Just give them a detachment that makes them exempt from the no stratagem rule and a couple of strats and grots would start looking a lot more fun. Relic&warlord trait might be a bit more tricky if they don't give us more models though. I really want a cheap spellslinger from AoS but he'd be more suited as an elite because if orks get a 30 point HQ then he'd be spammed in all the meta lists.
Somewhat unrelated (and wishlisting, so I'm putting it in a spoiler to avoid too much clutter) I really want a flier specialist detachment in the next campaign book. Imagine something like this:
Spoiler:
Deff Skwadron (might not be called that). Gives Big Mek in Mega armour, megatrakk skrapjet, burna-bommer, blitza-bommer, dakkajet, wazbom blastajet & deffkoptas the Deff Skwadron keyword. If the detachment is an airwing detachment then you may nominate a single flyer to get the warlord trait (this does not make the plane the warlord, nor can it be).
Warlord Trait - Krazy good: At the start of each battleround nominate a deff skwadron unit, that unit gains a negative 1 to hit modifier or improves it by one (a model that already has -1 becomes -2) for the remainder of the battleround.
Deploy ramps! (1CP): At the start of any movement phase choose a megatrakk skrapjet, that models gains <FLY> for the remainder of the battleround and additionally gains the "Hard to Hit" rule (making good on GWs promise of Orks don't need wings to fly, also charging flyers would be hilarious)
Drop 'em! (1CP): Choose a burna-bommer or blitza-bommer, that model can drop both of its bombs simultaneously assuming it still has both of its bombs remaining. On the roll of a 4+ the plane suffers d3 mortal wounds.
PiñaColada wrote: That 24" range is why I personally never liked using Flash Gitz. Their weapons are too strong for you to want to fire them at chaff so you'll want to move forward, but being within 24" of a juicy target means you're probably 10" away from chaff that can tie you up (same issue with the shokkjump dragsta, although that one has it worse).
I'm fine with their guns being heavy but the range should be 36" IMO, I'd much rather have that over a point drop. Although, to be fair, I'm not playing Freebootas so I'm not getting their max potential anyways.
It's kind of OK when your have a battlewagon flanked by two bonekrushas, as people rarely charge towards those.
As some of you guessed yes it is freebooterz and I might put them in a trukk but that is actually dependant on if I am using 2 units of 5, or one unit of 10. If five I will spring for the trukk, if ten the points will go towards Kaptain Badrukk. Also, there are no lootas. So, grot shield is available.
their 24" range isnt that bad considering the 24" freeboota trait range.
You really dont want something sitting in the far corner as freebootas, it wont ever get or give the +1 to hit bonus.
What would be absolutely hilarious is if GW made it where we could take any non-named HQ and infantry but the clan kulture was something that changed the stats of all of our non-gretchin infantry to become Gretchin and give them -1 to strength, toughness, and weapon skill but +1 to BS and require us to kitbash the units w Gretchin. Grot Kommandos, for stormboyz you could use that one Gretchin w jetpack as well as the Grot in the rockkit that come in the box, grot lootas, Grots w rokkit launcha, mega-grotz, etc.
While only a few of us would actually build these models, I would jump at the chance to.
Hah! Grot Kultur, with strategems ala skarboyz and 'ardboyz, but for elite grotz? that'd be awesome (maybe only allow it on infantry types with 5+BS though, flash grotz with 3+ might be too much). Though, to be honest, I'm already doing exactly what you described with regards to the conversions, I just have to use the ork statline. So far I only have bustas, kommandoes, and one lonely stormboy but lootas are probably next on the list!
Not a lot of places *to* nerf it, without just making it a normal SAG. Only upgrades on the SAG are 1d6 extra shots and MW plus regular Wounds on an 11+, instead of just MWs. Only thing they *could* do is make Kustom Ammo not work on it, but then it completely removes any reason to take Dread Waagh in the first place.
I've been running two units of flash gitz, 5 strong with ammo runt.
I find they get targeted often and aren't particularly tough, even with grot shields protecting them. One of my main opponents runs lots of mortars and 2 vultures so even large numbers of grots aren't living. Splitting them I to two units has kept them alive longer for me, the bonus +1 be on one model is nice, and the one unit can potentially proc the freebooterz trait for the other. Obviously you lose out on using moar dakka on a 10 model unit which is strong.
I tend to run mine as a spearhead detachment with the Kaptain as hq, a mek gun, and 2 units of 5+1 ammo runt. The Ork transport rules allow you to put freebooterz into other klan transports so then end up either both units of freebooterz and 10 grots in a battlewagon, or in trukks with 5 burnaboyz. The burnaboyz are there mainly for casualty removal options if the transport dies with the gitz in it, they also make an okay charge buffer.
flandarz wrote: Not a lot of places *to* nerf it, without just making it a normal SAG. Only upgrades on the SAG are 1d6 extra shots and MW plus regular Wounds on an 11+, instead of just MWs. Only thing they *could* do is make Kustom Ammo not work on it, but then it completely removes any reason to take Dread Waagh in the first place.
I thought you couldn't take the SSAG without taking the dread waaagh. For me, the only reason to take the stupid thing is the SSAG.
Yeah. And the only reason the SSAG is worth spending 1CP on (for Dread Waagh) is for shooting again with Kustom Ammo. So you can shoot twice with your Lootas *and* your SSAG. You take away Kustom Ammo and you're probably better off spending that 1 CP on a Command Reroll for the Lootas.
flandarz wrote:Not a lot of places *to* nerf it, without just making it a normal SAG. Only upgrades on the SAG are 1d6 extra shots and MW plus regular Wounds on an 11+, instead of just MWs. Only thing they *could* do is make Kustom Ammo not work on it, but then it completely removes any reason to take Dread Waagh in the first place.
That's actually incorrect. The SAG and Supa-SAG are identical except 1d6 and 2d6 shots respectively.
flandarz wrote:Yeah. And the only reason the SSAG is worth spending 1CP on (for Dread Waagh) is for shooting again with Kustom Ammo. So you can shoot twice with your Lootas *and* your SSAG. You take away Kustom Ammo and you're probably better off spending that 1 CP on a Command Reroll for the Lootas.
I gotta disagree on that point. I'd still pay 2CP for just the relic version without use of the strat. It's not always going to perform but having an extra ace up your sleeve is worth the price of entry still IMO.
How are people feeling about deathskulls trukk boyz? I'm workshopping a list with a brigade that features some MSU units of boyz, 10-12 boyz with kombi rocket nob and boy lugging around a rokkit. I've been contemplating chucking them in trukks to boost their mobility and survibility, which ends up being about 13ppm.
It's on the list of a dozen other ideas I'm contemplating but at the moment it's the idea I'm least certain of. For context I'm entering a local tourney that I suspect will use the Eternal War Missions from CA2018. After giving those missions a read through I've noticed that some demand you use troops to capture objectives, some rely heavily on mobility, and some rely on being outright killy.
Nora wrote: sorry for the blunt question, but what is Kustom Amo?
It's a stratagem for the Dread Waaagh! detachment from the Vigilus Defiant campaign book. For 1CP you can create the following detachment:
Use this Stratagem when choosing your army.
Pick an ORK Detachment from your army to be a
Dread Waaagh! Specialist Detachment. BIG MEKS,
GORKANAUTS , MORKANAUTS , DEFF DREADS
and KILLA KANS in that Detachment gain the
DREAD WAAAGH! keyword.
Kustom Ammo is a stratagem that costs 2CP that all Dread Waaagh! units have access to:
Use this Stratagem in your Shooting phase. Pick a DREAD
WAAAGH! unit from your army. That unit can shoot twice
this Shooting phase with all of its ranged weapons.
Double checked my Codex and you are 100% correct on the Wounds thing. Which makes it even weirder that you would spend 2 CP for +1d6 shots instead of just spending 80ish pts and bringing a second SAG. Or spending those 80 pts on 5 more Lootas, or a couple more Smashas. Don't get me wrong, I like the SAG and SSAG, but Orkz are so CP hungry that spending 2 CP for +1d6 shots is just ridiculous, imo.
Kustom Ammo is, basically, the Bad Moonz Showing Off Strat, but for Dread Waaghs.
flandarz wrote: Double checked my Codex and you are 100% correct on the Wounds thing. Which makes it even weirder that you would spend 2 CP for +1d6 shots instead of just spending 80ish pts and bringing a second SAG. Or spending those 80 pts on 5 more Lootas, or a couple more Smashas. Don't get me wrong, I like the SAG and SSAG, but Orkz are so CP hungry that spending 2 CP for +1d6 shots is just ridiculous, imo.
Kustom Ammo is, basically, the Bad Moonz Showing Off Strat, but for Dread Waaghs.
it seems stupid...and it kind of is, the stupid thing should just be a relic we can take. But, 2D6 shots averages 7s across the board and that means about 3 hits a turn with a SSAG using bad moonz compared to the 1.5 for a regular SAG, its twice as deadly and when teamed with some strats like Shoot twice is really does damage. Ive used a SSAG to destroy two enemy fliers in 1 turn by giving it the always hits on 5s strat. And its really nice to be able to kill 2 vehicles and still have a loota bomb and use them to fire twice as well to kill either a couple light vehicles or to grind down some elite infantry.
Well, yeah. That's fine. We were discussing whether it'd still be worth spending CP for a Dread Waagh if they changed Kustom Ammo to not work on the SSAG. In my opinion: no. You'd be better off saving that CP and just grabbing a second SAG. Or pretty much anything, really. We just burn through CP too fast to be spending it on a SSAG without Kustom Ammo.
Quackzo wrote: How are people feeling about deathskulls trukk boyz? I'm workshopping a list with a brigade that features some MSU units of boyz, 10-12 boyz with kombi rocket nob and boy lugging around a rokkit. I've been contemplating chucking them in trukks to boost their mobility and survibility, which ends up being about 13ppm.
It's on the list of a dozen other ideas I'm contemplating but at the moment it's the idea I'm least certain of. For context I'm entering a local tourney that I suspect will use the Eternal War Missions from CA2018. After giving those missions a read through I've noticed that some demand you use troops to capture objectives, some rely heavily on mobility, and some rely on being outright killy.
I've run a similar load out for trucks full of shoota Boyz a number of times, and if your tourney allows index options, it can be made very strong indeed by bunging a rokkit on the truck and throwing in a mini mek with kmb too.
Each fully loaded truck then has 3 units with re-rollable deathskulls culture. It's done very good work for me, in the past. In a 2000 point list I've got 6 trucks in supported by 9 Smashas, 3 deffkoptas with big boms and kmbs, 2x SAG and a Big mek on warbike with kff super cybork and kunnin but brutal.
With a brigade detachment and vanguard, you have plenty of cp to chuck about, I put a lot of guys in the teleporta and move the rest about after deploying using the warlord trait to really mess with my op.
It can be very strong indeed, and you're not reliant on CPs and strategems, thanks to all the natural re-rolls.
What would be absolutely hilarious is if GW made it where we could take any non-named HQ and infantry but the clan kulture was something that changed the stats of all of our non-gretchin infantry to become Gretchin and give them -1 to strength, toughness, and weapon skill but +1 to BS and require us to kitbash the units w Gretchin. Grot Kommandos, for stormboyz you could use that one Gretchin w jetpack as well as the Grot in the rockkit that come in the box, grot lootas, Grots w rokkit launcha, mega-grotz, etc.
While only a few of us would actually build these models, I would jump at the chance to.
you should see my grot-crons. Basically i play so little and love modelling so much that i make ork versions of armies i like. Grot heads happen to sit really well into necron bodies, especially the elite units. Grot-praetorians? Those are my stormboyz, some still have rockets, some surf those rockets, they look hilarious. I would kill for grot rules, especially since I have loads of killakanz and grot tankz.
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A couple questions about some of the stuff talked about over the last couple pages.
What is this thing about open-topped being able to transfer a +1 to hit to the unit inside? Grots were the topic at the time, but is there a way to transfer this to FG's? Do FG's count as 2 models? We seem to always be talking about units of 5 in trukks or 10 in BW's? Or are we assuming 5 ammo runts per 5 FGs?
I wanted to utilise FG's in a mech list, dropping them in via teleporta in a BW. but Dreads are probably better? Just push the BW up first turn to a centralised position? A morka/gorka escort would be a decent CC deterrent?
Also, can you da jump grots? You could use a grot screen for lootas that later in game you da jump to protect your FG's who've just hopped out your popped BW? Probably not hugely effective and you run the risk of not having any grots to da jump should they focus the lootas. Maybe then you just jump the lootas as a suprise motha fooker moment.
Open-Topped allows units inside of a transport to shoot during the shooting phase, and applies all Modifiers that affect the transport to the unit inside. Since the Freebooterz trait gives Freebooterz a +1 to hit, that can be transferred to the unit inside. Even units that normally wouldn't be able to benefit from the Modifiers, like Grots.
Yes, it works for Flash Gitz too.
I'd just put a Gork into the Tellyporta myself. Dreadz can work too, but the Gork has more firepower and is practically guaranteed to make a charge with Ramming Speed. I wouldn't put the BW and Gitz in it, simply because you'll be losing out on a Turn of shooting with them. BW has enough movement to hide out of LoS, then move the FGs into position.
Yeah, Grots can be Da Jumped. Probably better off using it to throw them onto Objectives though. They still get Zog Off, and if the Objective is in Cover, they can be surprisingly annoying to get off of it.
pretty much if it isnt just area terrain cover, grots cannot be shot off the objective. Its so glorious having nothing but barricades surrounding an objective and my opponent shouting "Are you serious i cant see them!?" lol
you should see my grot-crons. Basically i play so little and love modelling so much that i make ork versions of armies i like. Grot heads happen to sit really well into necron bodies, especially the elite units. Grot-praetorians? Those are my stormboyz, some still have rockets, some surf those rockets, they look hilarious. I would kill for grot rules, especially since I have loads of killakanz and grot tankz.
Sounds awesome dude! Got some pics of your army for us?
Quackzo wrote: How are people feeling about deathskulls trukk boyz? I'm workshopping a list with a brigade that features some MSU units of boyz, 10-12 boyz with kombi rocket nob and boy lugging around a rokkit. I've been contemplating chucking them in trukks to boost their mobility and survibility, which ends up being about 13ppm.
It's on the list of a dozen other ideas I'm contemplating but at the moment it's the idea I'm least certain of. For context I'm entering a local tourney that I suspect will use the Eternal War Missions from CA2018. After giving those missions a read through I've noticed that some demand you use troops to capture objectives, some rely heavily on mobility, and some rely on being outright killy.
I've run a similar load out for trucks full of shoota Boyz a number of times, and if your tourney allows index options, it can be made very strong indeed by bunging a rokkit on the truck and throwing in a mini mek with kmb too.
Each fully loaded truck then has 3 units with re-rollable deathskulls culture. It's done very good work for me, in the past. In a 2000 point list I've got 6 trucks in supported by 9 Smashas, 3 deffkoptas with big boms and kmbs, 2x SAG and a Big mek on warbike with kff super cybork and kunnin but brutal.
With a brigade detachment and vanguard, you have plenty of cp to chuck about, I put a lot of guys in the teleporta and move the rest about after deploying using the warlord trait to really mess with my op.
It can be very strong indeed, and you're not reliant on CPs and strategems, thanks to all the natural re-rolls.
Thanks for the advice. I don't think I could swing 6 trukk boyz but was hoping to get by with 3 units of trukk boyz and do grots in the other 3 troop slots for grot shields on the obligatory SSAG big mek. Already have the KMB deffkoptas in their as they're *slightly* cheaper and I plan to use them to either sniper characters or aide in my anti-tank.
I was contemplating the mek boyz with kustom mega sluggas (was planning KMB but can't determine if it's 100% allowed due to the wording in the index vs codex datasheets) but I may or may not be mimicking parts of Steve's list so I'll have my elite slots filled up with big shoota kommandos and grotsnik. My main motive with the deathskulls brigade is to focus on mobility and objectives.
I have a dozen other ideas for this army but I'll save that discussion for after the FAQ.
my most recent deathskulls list used 3 units of 12 shoota boyz.
they did very well. Their trait wasn't my main focus for bringing them. For me they did an excellent job of shooting off horde units with DDD. I was averaging 5 or 6 wounds per unit and against daemons with only a 5++ they were killing troops left and right. They didn't even get popped mainly because the trucks could just shuffle backwards as the enemy advanced. I kept my units at just inside 18". Not to mention the S3 daemons had to crack open the T6 transport first. These units were backed by a gorkanaut for additional horde clearing. He was double shooting with more dakka and helped clear a unit of
blood letters with a 4++ turn one.
I actually think the Gork is one of our better units. Particularly in Dread Waagh, but he's solid just by himself. His chaff clearing is exceptional, and he's tough and strong enough to fight Titanic and Monster units as well. Only thing he really lacks is the character keyword, for Orkz is Never Beaten.
flandarz wrote: I actually think the Gork is one of our better units. Particularly in Dread Waagh, but he's solid just by himself. His chaff clearing is exceptional, and he's tough and strong enough to fight Titanic and Monster units as well. Only thing he really lacks is the character keyword, for Orkz is Never Beaten.
He got charged by a 20 strong seeker unit. he swipe attacked 10 of them away. it was awesome.
Quackzo wrote: How are people feeling about deathskulls trukk boyz? I'm workshopping a list with a brigade that features some MSU units of boyz, 10-12 boyz with kombi rocket nob and boy lugging around a rokkit. I've been contemplating chucking them in trukks to boost their mobility and survibility, which ends up being about 13ppm.
It's on the list of a dozen other ideas I'm contemplating but at the moment it's the idea I'm least certain of. For context I'm entering a local tourney that I suspect will use the Eternal War Missions from CA2018. After giving those missions a read through I've noticed that some demand you use troops to capture objectives, some rely heavily on mobility, and some rely on being outright killy.
I've run a similar load out for trucks full of shoota Boyz a number of times, and if your tourney allows index options, it can be made very strong indeed by bunging a rokkit on the truck and throwing in a mini mek with kmb too.
Each fully loaded truck then has 3 units with re-rollable deathskulls culture. It's done very good work for me, in the past. In a 2000 point list I've got 6 trucks in supported by 9 Smashas, 3 deffkoptas with big boms and kmbs, 2x SAG and a Big mek on warbike with kff super cybork and kunnin but brutal.
With a brigade detachment and vanguard, you have plenty of cp to chuck about, I put a lot of guys in the teleporta and move the rest about after deploying using the warlord trait to really mess with my op.
It can be very strong indeed, and you're not reliant on CPs and strategems, thanks to all the natural re-rolls.
Thanks for the advice. I don't think I could swing 6 trukk boyz but was hoping to get by with 3 units of trukk boyz and do grots in the other 3 troop slots for grot shields on the obligatory SSAG big mek. Already have the KMB deffkoptas in their as they're *slightly* cheaper and I plan to use them to either sniper characters or aide in my anti-tank.
I was contemplating the mek boyz with kustom mega sluggas (was planning KMB but can't determine if it's 100% allowed due to the wording in the index vs codex datasheets) but I may or may not be mimicking parts of Steve's list so I'll have my elite slots filled up with big shoota kommandos and grotsnik. My main motive with the deathskulls brigade is to focus on mobility and objectives.
I have a dozen other ideas for this army but I'll save that discussion for after the FAQ.
This is a tweak of my usual list that I've run a couple of times, it's pretty strong stuff tbh. In this one I've burnt 5cp before starting with 2 extra shiney gubbins, warphead and Dread Waaaagh! This leaves me 11cp for extra ammo, teleporta and grot shields. That can be tailored to suit your taste.
Brigade Deathskulls 1999pts PL115
HQ Big Mek KFF, grot oiler
Big Mek on Warbike, KFF, Super cybork
Warphead, Da Jump, skorched gitbonez.
HQ Big Mek SSAG, Grot oiler, Warlord, Big Killa Boss
Troops
3x gretchin
Elites
3x Mek, KMB.
Build your castle of Smasha guns, SSAG, grot screens and KFF Mek, zip about with trucks and koptas grabbing objectives, warphead for surprise mortal wounds or grabbing tough objectives.
I always take the skorched gitbonez on my warphead, as I like him to be independent as much as possible, besides there aren't too many ork units on the table when this is deployed.
It's a fun, surprisingly powerful, mobile list which can handle most things that have been put on the table in front of me so far.
The index version allows you to equip the KMB, but obviously that only works as long as you're in an environment that allows index rules.
The neat thing is that not only do the provide re-rollable punch, they can repair a wound a turn in the truck you're riding in. With a kff, and ramshackle, it's could end up being quite frustrating for your opponent.
Edit;
My apologies, you're referring to the rule of 3. That would make the extra 3 meks illegal. For a tournament I'd swop out meks for kommandos, and adjust the amount of mek guns to compensate.
Meks can't repair while in a Trukk. Or any transport. Units in a Transport are not considered to be on the board. Thus, even though common sense says the Mek is within 3" of the Trukk, it actually isn't.
flandarz wrote: Meks can't repair while in a Trukk. Or any transport. Units in a Transport are not considered to be on the board. Thus, even though common sense says the Mek is within 3" of the Trukk, it actually isn't.
You're quite right, but at least you have the opportunity to disembark and effect repairs subject to the usual restrictions.
It's quite useful that I've published this list up and had some feedback. I've been playing this list as is with the intention of taking it to a tournament towards the end if the year. The rule of 3 slipped my mind completely, I guess because the mini mek is such a small and usually inconsequential unit but in this combo adds a nice extra kick to the shoota wagons.
As it happens I've had a little swap about and will trial out a variant that replaces the 3 meks and 3 units of shoota boys with tankbustas. So still 6 trucks on the table, but now even more rokkits.
Yeah, Grots can be Da Jumped. Probably better off using it to throw them onto Objectives though. They still get Zog Off, and if the Objective is in Cover, they can be surprisingly annoying to get off of it.
Against some armies(footslogging assault armies in particular) I love creating 60" wide wall 9" front of enemy army. Have fun stopping there. Particularly annoying for enemy that can cover lot more than that usually. Say kraken genestealers that could cover like 40" in a turn and have to slow down noticably due to bunch of grots front of them. Knights also get slight speed bumb from that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
flandarz wrote: Yeah. And the only reason the SSAG is worth spending 1CP on (for Dread Waagh) is for shooting again with Kustom Ammo. So you can shoot twice with your Lootas *and* your SSAG. You take away Kustom Ammo and you're probably better off spending that 1 CP on a Command Reroll for the Lootas.
Unless you have like 20+ CP I would rather save those 2 CP for shooting one more time with the lootas instead. Random stats make SAG rather unreliable way to spend 2CP. Even before SSAG I ran out of 18 CP in no time so spending 2CP for shooting SSAG again would def cut number of shoot twice for lootas. And lootas are lot more reliable damage dealers than SAG that has to roll every stat again when it shoots 2nd time.
Remember that you have to desembark at the start of the movement phase and than repair at the end of the movement phase. If you disembark and than move the truck , you cant repair itaa you need to be within 1".
At best the minimek are good to repair mek gunz, but I would take em bare without the kmb
I find the ssag to be unreliable. For example last game I played used kustom ammo two turns in a row on it, total of 8d6 shots, one set of them was str 11. From 8d6 shots I score a total of 6 damage against a T8 3+/5++ model.
The problem is the Str is random, then the # of shots are random. You could end up blowing a reroll on the strength of the shot, and roll below average for number of shots, then roll average for everything else and it's just not impressive. The more rolls you have to make rolling high before you can resolve the effect the less reliable something is, especially over multiple turns in multiple games(tournament).
Thats pretty much the whole point. Its random, but since doubles dont do something bad 99% of the time now its actually usable despite being random.
Technically the SAG has always been pretty good, but ALL doubles except 5s and 6s were really, really bad and even 5s werent that great. Thus, too random.
The non-SSAG in 8th doesnt fire enough shots, thats its only issue.
I remember the days when that magical 12 on the shokk gun simply removed whatever was under the template. Then again if you got a 2 then it removed everything around the mek. Ah, good times.
blaktoof wrote: I find the ssag to be unreliable. For example last game I played used kustom ammo two turns in a row on it, total of 8d6 shots, one set of them was str 11. From 8d6 shots I score a total of 6 damage against a T8 3+/5++ model.
Well you rolled more than average S11+ then. That's 1/12 chance.
You shouldn't be counting on 11+. Problem is you are going to be getting less than 7 42% of times. Or less than 7 shots 42% times. So one of those is going to happen fairly often(66% times indeed at least one of them is under 7).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: Thats pretty much the whole point. Its random, but since doubles dont do something bad 99% of the time now its actually usable despite being random.
Technically the SAG has always been pretty good, but ALL doubles except 5s and 6s were really, really bad and even 5s werent that great. Thus, too random.
The non-SSAG in 8th doesnt fire enough shots, thats its only issue.
Yeah. But doesn't exactly encourage me to spend 2 CP to fire it again. It's fine for one shooting. But those 2 CP I rather spend shooting lootas again. Much more reliable and short of some brigade(hard to get without index)+battallion+battallion I don't have enough CP to power up lootas AND SSAG twice a turn for long enough.
blaktoof wrote: I find the ssag to be unreliable. For example last game I played used kustom ammo two turns in a row on it, total of 8d6 shots, one set of them was str 11. From 8d6 shots I score a total of 6 damage against a T8 3+/5++ model.
The problem is the Str is random, then the # of shots are random. You could end up blowing a reroll on the strength of the shot, and roll below average for number of shots, then roll average for everything else and it's just not impressive. The more rolls you have to make rolling high before you can resolve the effect the less reliable something is, especially over multiple turns in multiple games(tournament).
That is why you NEVER shoot at a PBC. Is not the SSAG, is statistics. DG is by far the worst enemy for orks IMHO, you can mitigate the minus as much as you want, but the combination of high T, excellent saves, Invu and FNP vs. our 5+ BS is a grind fest.
I´m never happy to meet a DG+Daemon list, they are a pain in the ass.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
cody.d. wrote: I remember the days when that magical 12 on the shokk gun simply removed whatever was under the template. Then again if you got a 2 then it removed everything around the mek. Ah, good times.
I honestly also miss the funny, crazy randomness of the good old days.
I know now what am I gonna say next Big Survey
Emicrania wrote: That is why you NEVER shoot at a PBC. Is not the SSAG, is statistics. DG is by far the worst enemy for orks IMHO, you can mitigate the minus as much as you want, but the combination of high T, excellent saves, Invu and FNP vs. our 5+ BS is a grind fest. I´m never happy to meet a DG+Daemon list, they are a pain in the ass.
You really think so? I have not met a decent ork player with my DG so far, but in my opinion one of their biggest weaknesses is not being able to remove hordes fast enough. All those 2d6 flamers are great and all, but in the end you still pay 150+ points to kill 6-8 models - awesome against marines or genestealers, terrible against guardsmen, gaunts, daemon troops or boyz. Outside of Mortarion and pox walkers I don't think there is anything that can efficiently kill a unit of 30 boyz.
About shooting PBC... yeah, don't do that. The only model that has efficiently killed one of my PBC so far is nu Abbadon and he just triggered 1d3 mortal wounds for half his army doing that. No matter how annoying they are, tarpit and ignore PBC.
Anybody ever did the maths on a Deathskull SSAG with the Oppurtunist Warlord Trait?
Instead of +1 to wound aginst vehicles he gets to reroll all ones as well as rerolling an additional woundroll. Which might be kinda equal to Big killa boss in outcome. However he has this other nifty trick which lets him shoot at enemy characters within 18" which is potentially awesome as the SSAG makes a big smear of all/most characters.
Big issue is raege. At 18" you eupose yourself to lot more threats and many armies have no need to walk within 18" of it. Add to that issues with los and seems very situational. Albeit you can swjp to that if enemy army is suitable
It is indeed situational as the range is an issue. But when you pull it off it can be nice. It might also make sure your opponent thinks twice before moving a character within 18" (or 23").
If you are in good position to shoot(that's tall location with good LOS everywhere that makes harder to attack you in h2h) that area enemy needs to come is very close indeed as you can be like 8-10" up high anyway. And moving forward isn't reducing distance that fast anyway. And then you suffer -1 to hit so hit on 6's unless you use more dakka which then costs 2 CP and could be used for more reliable unit or to shoot again...That's a LOT of expenses spent on rather unreliable weapon that could whiff either shots or S's easily.
I'm struggling to come up with army you would want that.
As for math assuming you normally wound on 4+(S7 vs many vehicles since the +1 to wound is vs vehicles/monsters many which are T7) you would have 58% wound chance vs 66%. VS T8+ you would be having 38% vs 50%. If you wound normally on 3+ that's 80.5% vs 83%.
So basically you are trading less wounds against vehicles regardless of what you wound normally(if you wound on 3+ it's least difference). And deathskull trait doesn't work vs monsters so that's big tradeoff for situational sniper ability.
Good thing warlord traits aren't fixed generally in tournaments so you can change it if you do run up against army you want sniper.
cody.d. wrote: I remember the days when that magical 12 on the shokk gun simply removed whatever was under the template. Then again if you got a 2 then it removed everything around the mek. Ah, good times.
I honestly also miss the funny, crazy randomness of the good old days.
I know now what am I gonna say next Big Survey
I don't. I can't even count how many games the shokk attack killed himself or did next to nothing by rolling doubles. I don't miss those days at all. mainly because random meant detrimental to yourself and not fun to play.
Edit: I also know i quoted this but somehow erased the poster before me.
Random can be fun but GW's idea of random is "how badly did you feth up?" with one potentially amazing outcome to balance it out.
All of the doubles except 5s and 6s either resulted in SAG death in one way or another, or might as well have been "It fizzled out, move on to next unit to shoot with"
SAG isnt the only one to do that its just the most well known one. Most random effects had a bad habit of utterly screwing you over more than either helping or being neutral.
But they were fun. Both the SAG, whir-whir-click-click and what about the old rules for trukks when they were destroyed? I miss the random and unexpected stuff which could happen to my orkies.
Singleton Mosby wrote: But they were fun. Both the SAG, whir-whir-click-click and what about the old rules for trukks when they were destroyed? I miss the random and unexpected stuff which could happen to my orkies.
yeah but 8th is already too lethal to have extra things that hurt yourself. It already sucks when you perils of the warp.
The trukk ramshackle was probably the ONLY random effect that felt fair. It was just as likely to drive backwards into your own boyz as it was careening forward into the enemy ranks.
And i do miss that rule, though in the current vehicle rules it might be a bit wonky.
Emicrania wrote: That is why you NEVER shoot at a PBC. Is not the SSAG, is statistics. DG is by far the worst enemy for orks IMHO, you can mitigate the minus as much as you want, but the combination of high T, excellent saves, Invu and FNP vs. our 5+ BS is a grind fest.
I´m never happy to meet a DG+Daemon list, they are a pain in the ass.
You really think so? I have not met a decent ork player with my DG so far, but in my opinion one of their biggest weaknesses is not being able to remove hordes fast enough. All those 2d6 flamers are great and all, but in the end you still pay 150+ points to kill 6-8 models - awesome against marines or genestealers, terrible against guardsmen, gaunts, daemon troops or boyz. Outside of Mortarion and pox walkers I don't think there is anything that can efficiently kill a unit of 30 boyz.
About shooting PBC... yeah, don't do that. The only model that has efficiently killed one of my PBC so far is nu Abbadon and he just triggered 1d3 mortal wounds for half his army doing that. No matter how annoying they are, tarpit and ignore PBC.
My experience comes from playing freebooterz mechanised list vs 60+ plaguebearer , 3x PBC and like 7 characters.
I can see how they would have problem cleaning up hordes, for me is always a painful battle, which I never lost so far, bust still a psychological marathon....
Automatically Appended Next Post: Quick question, does vector deny us the possiblity to use unstoppable green tide again or it just block it for a turn ?
Emicrania wrote: Do you reckon they will nerf the SSAG with the big FAQ?
If they wanted to nerf it, they probably wouldn't actually touch the relic but rather the requirements, or lack of, to get the detatchment. As it stands now, you just get a Big Mek w Shokk Attack Gun pay the 1cp and you can have it. Hopefully if they go this route, they make us take at least one of our robot units (Gorkanaut, Morkanaut, Deff Dread) and not have to spend a detatchment on a fortification network to get a Mekboy Workshop.
If they go that route better have it for EVERY vigilus detachment because SSAG doesn't work any differently to that. And it's not just 1 CP. It's 1 CP AND relic slot so if you want say ever usefull killa klaw it's 2CP. 1 more relic and you pay total of 3CP extra for the SSAG.
Emicrania wrote: Do you reckon they will nerf the SSAG with the big FAQ?
If they wanted to nerf it, they probably wouldn't actually touch the relic but rather the requirements, or lack of, to get the detatchment. As it stands now, you just get a Big Mek w Shokk Attack Gun pay the 1cp and you can have it. Hopefully if they go this route, they make us take at least one of our robot units (Gorkanaut, Morkanaut, Deff Dread) and not have to spend a detatchment on a fortification network to get a Mekboy Workshop.
The only nerfage that’s likely imho is restricting mob up to boys units only.
But honestly I don’t think orks is an issue enough to warrant any nerf. They are making the top 16 in tournaments but haven’t made the leap to winning any major ones.
To be fair I see a lot of buffs to other armies and maybe a slight nerf to ynnari in their new dex. That’s my prediction. I’d say maybe a point increase to castallen but I think that ship has sailed if they haven’t done it yet.
I really hope for some wide-spread price drops on things like rokkits, big shootas or kombi-weapons since Orks missed the collective drops on similar weapons for almost every other faction due to being too new.
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah it bugs the hell out of me seeing every powerfist at 9pts but our klaws are 13pts....
When we field more of them due to how our army works...
The answer i got when asking about why powerclaws are more expensive than power fists from a to be unnamed play tester was because orks generally speaking have more attacks so they factored it into the price of the weapon, whereas the durability of an ork nob or warboss is reflected in the platform (model getting the weapon). they could not balance the power claw or stabba with a cost of choppas and big choppa with the attack number on the platform so... costs more.
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah it bugs the hell out of me seeing every powerfist at 9pts but our klaws are 13pts....
When we field more of them due to how our army works...
Anything in our army that is a vehicle pretty much needs a price cut, but the walkers are the worst, I have 12 Kill Kanz collecting dust and it bothers me :( the PK/PF argument is hilarious because Marine players will argue both of these points at the same time: "PF have to cost less because our base models have fewer attacks so they aren't as good" "Ork shooting shouldn't be cheaper because that isn't their specialty" ive watched that play out so many times its annoying
Starting to get worried that GW is going to miss their own deadline again. I only wish they could become a bit better with their communication regarding when they aim to drop it, had they said around the end of the April in the beginning of the month then there wouldn't have been any issues. But the way they're doing it now, it can drop at any moment and any day, is just annoying IMO.
Regarding powerfist and powerklaw costs, IG get them for 8 and SM get them for 9 because they're better CC fighters. Ever since CA 2018 came out I've been proposing that means we get them for 10. That's fair. Same as chainfists (killsaws), they're 11 for SM which means we should get them for 12/18 for the pair.
I agree. If our CC wargear is priced high because we're better at CC, then our ranged options *should* be cheaper, because that's where we fall behind. Well, that and durability, but that's a whole other thing.
Killa kans are for sure! how overcosted are dreads? I don't think the mork/gork are overcosted at all really.They have been winning me games lately.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also created an article in general when I was curious about individual model shooting output. So far outside of warlord and other fw titans, the stompa is sitting at the top at 219 total damage potential.
Even with this, others in the post are talking about how bad it is, which is true but it could be gw's "explanation" for it's insane points cost.
Dreads for me just dont seem to do anything. Lack of attacks to deal with numbers or high invul or BIG vehicles reliably and they tend to die in one attempt to hurt them, even with a KFF around for some reason. Ive never had a dread just refuse to die or soak more than 2 units worth of shooting to finish off (not even talking anti-tank weapons here)
Theyre way better than they used to be but they still dont seem to do anything. Nauts are awesome though.
Dreadz just... underperform at everything that the Gork does. Even equivalent point cost (about 3 Dreadz) will still do worse than a Gork in everything except survivability (and that's just cuz they have a larger Wound pool and have to be targeted individually). I think they get a fair amount of CC attacks (6 with all Saws/Klaws), but even Tellyported in, they have issues getting into and staying in CC. If you try to balance them by taking some guns, they'll be underwhelming at both CC and shooting. With 4 Twin Shootas, they can be decent chaff clearing though.
Basically, Dreadz are very "all or nothing" when it comes to loadouts. They're decent, but compared to a Gork... well, you're better off with the Gork.
Let's say I wanted to start small, around 500-1,000 points.
A safe bet would be 60-80 boys, 30 grots, warboss, big mek, weirdboy or 2, box or 2 of nobz, some lootas, maybe some tankbustas and a few trukks/battlewagons. But there are quite a few options out there
60 boyz=450 pts or so, 30 grots 90. warboss, big mek, weirdboy are clocking around 200 iirc. 10 lootas 170. Battlewagons 140 pts.
=1050. Maybe bit saved with characters. As flowchart is banned here don't recall big mek price off the head.
If you go this route then 2 start collecting boxes could be useful. Boyz+nob box there so for smallish extra price you get dreadnought. Not maybe best units but two of those from DS doing 8" charge with 4 CCW aren't worst of things if you can clear the screens in advance.
Starting point for Orks would be Boyz. Shoota or Slugga doesn’t matter at the start - mix them in a unit if you like. How many depends on how keen you are to paint, but green spray paint, Clan colour and metal lets you play any number fast. Gretchin provide a cheap Troops option, don’t worry about the Runtherd.
HQ basics would be choppy Warboss, sneaky Wierdboy or cheap Big Mek. Relics can add choppy-ness, sneaky-ness or shooty-ness to taste.
40 Boyz, 20 Grotz and two Warboss Battalion comes in at about 500 pts.
From there, the ‘Ooniverse is your Waaagh! Enjoy :-)
Runtherd comes handy when you have loota bomb and want like 60+ grots. If all are in 10 strong units that opens up lots of potential for enemy to use selective targeting and T1 charge potentials as it's hard to provide screen to multiple direction AND multiple layers with 10 strong units. 30 strong grot units ensure casualty removal removes that issue but then morale starts to be an issue.
Not fan of 40 boyz. Sounds like 30+10 for mobbing up but not fan of that as only unit. Removes option from endless tide. 30 orks coming back is lot scarier than ~13 orks left from the 40 mob and 40 orks in one unit is overkill anyway.
Oh and rather than 2 warbosses I would go for warboss+weirdboy. Cheaper, da jump(are you going to footslog that mob and be shot while at it?) and then smites. I would rather have 2 weirdboys rather than 2 warbosses. Weirdboys are good.
My winning small point game list is:
Biker boss (index)
Ssag mek
Wierdboy
30 boyz
2x10 grots
Than add anything you really want. I like to have a trukk to run a squad of grots. Maybe a plane or some meganobz. You can go anywhere from this base. The only thing to consider atm is biker boss since he's index only. You might want to run a regular footslogging boss but he's so much worse than a biker version that i'm thinking of running something else instead. Maybe badrukk. However, having a boss can be handy for morale and possible charge after advance for the boyz. It's not mandatory though.
regarding Deffdreads so have they worked fine for me.
I teleport 3 with 1 Kustom mega-blasta (index option) and the rest CC each and have them DEATHSKULLS. Very good use for the kulture in both shooting and CC.
I usually run 10 model Grot units myself. If you layer and interweave them right (remember, they can be up to 2 inches apart from each other), you shouldn't have anymore issues with selective targeting and charges than you should with 30 model squads. Saves me 40+ points on that Runtherd and allows me to Da Jump some of them to Objectives without opening my Lootas up to being wiped as badly.
Yeah, Deffdreadz ain't bad. Just ain't at Gork levels. With that setup, even with Deathskullz rerolls, you'll be lucky to get 2 hits with the KMB a shooting phase. Personally, I think you'd probably be better off with Twin Shootas (4 on one or two Dreads), to clear screening units, then use the CC Dread (with 4 Saws/Klaws) to attack whatever they were protecting. You generally have better options (like Lootas and Mek Gunz) for dealing with targets the KMB is good against.
Umm that screen clearing isn't going to do much. You shoot after you have teleported so even if you kill the screen the juicy target there is safely further away so your range is waaaaay too big for reliable charge.
And besides with all the fight again things etc screens are generally well ahead especially on turn 2. They don't need to block just DS but also charge, wipe, consolidiate, pile again and trap into h2h with no falling back. You don't get that if you are sitting right behind the screen.
I did say "one" in my original. 2 Dreadz clear screens with 4 Twin Shootas. 1 with 4 Klaws/Saws handles the charge.
And sure. But you also gotta make sure your screens aren't letting Flyers park on the other side of them. About 4 inches of space between your screen and the unit they're protecting, right? Enough to stop pile-on, but not enough so a Dakka Jet can park between the screen and the target.
So, maybe 13-14 inches is what you'll be looking for on your charge. Not quite as "reliable" since that's more like a 40-50% chance, but still decent.
im assuming you mean big shootas not twin shootas. 75pts for 12 S5 shots doesnt seem a very good investment to me at orky BS. A squad of bareboned bikers is 69pts and fire 18 S5 shots, have the speed to not need the deepstrike, and only slightly easier to kill given toughness difference.
In any case, my argument isn't that it's a good investment. Just a better one than a KMB Dredd. 91 pts for 4 S8 shots seems like a significantly worse investment than 75 for 12 S5 shots.
Nora wrote: regarding Deffdreads so have they worked fine for me.
I teleport 3 with 1 Kustom mega-blasta (index option) and the rest CC each and have them DEATHSKULLS. Very good use for the kulture in both shooting and CC.
Now if they are all individual once they deploy would each one be able to make use of the DS trait? or would that still apply to the unit as a whole?
Let's say I wanted to start small, around 500-1,000 points.
Good starting point for that point range is to build a basic battalion.
I would suggest the following;
Warboss powerklaw squig and kustom shoota
Weirdboy
Mob of 30 Boyz powerklaw nob
Mob of 10 boyz nob with big Choppa
10 gretchin
That is 470pts, you can add a couple of other units and likely hit 1k quickly e.g. 15 lootas + another unit of 30 Boyz + 10 more gretchin.
Mob up the 10+30 Boyz first turn.
mhalko1 wrote: Killa kans are for sure! how overcosted are dreads? I don't think the mork/gork are overcosted at all really.They have been winning me games lately.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also created an article in general when I was curious about individual model shooting output. So far outside of warlord and other fw titans, the stompa is sitting at the top at 219 total damage potential.
Even with this, others in the post are talking about how bad it is, which is true but it could be gw's "explanation" for it's insane points cost.
Mork/Gork are still over priced. Compare them to their closest competition, Imperial Knights. Which is better? Would you rather have a Castellan or 2 Gorkanauts? I know which one is better.
As for your Stompa comments. Yes theoretically the Stompa can dish out a lot of damage, but what is its AVERAGE damage? Its got basically 5 Big shootas for 15 shots which is 5 hits and 2.5 6s for another .88 hit so lets say 6 hits. The Skorcha will be out of range basically every turn but on average that is 3.5 hits, The Supa Gatler which averages 6D6 shots which is 21 shots for 7 actual hits and 3.5 rerolls for about 1 more so lets say 8 hits overall, Supa rokkit which averages 1 hit a turn, and finally the deff Kannon which averages 3 D6 shots for 10.5 shots on average and about 4 hits a turn.
So you have
6 S5 hits
3.5 S5 -1 AP hits
8 S7 -2 AP hits
1 S8 -3 D6dmg hits
and 4 S10 -4 APD6Dmg hits.
Against a Leman Russ your Big Shootas will do 2 wounds which has a 2/3 chance to save so .66dmg. The Skorcha does about .55 dmg. The Gatler does about 2 damage the Super Rokkit hasa 50% chance to wound and a 5/6th chance to go through and do 3.5 dmg so about 1.6 dmg and the Deff Kannon does 3 wounds which go through for 10.5 dmg
All told? 15.31 dmg on average Vs a Leman Russ, upgrade that to a model with an invuln and that damage goes drastically down....like against a Castellan which routinely has a 3+ save, in that case the damage is about 3 .
So max damage possible is 219, but the AVERAGE is 15 against a T8 vehicle with 3+ save. So theoretically a Stompa can kill a Warlord titan in 1 round of shooting, but realistically it will get laughed at and then violently explode.
I think that's less about the Gork/Mork being overcosted and more about the Castellan being undercosted. And the Castellan is a lot more specialized than the Gork/Mork too. But I agree that our "Titans" need some buffing. A decent Invuln would be tits.
Mork/Gork are still over priced. Compare them to their closest competition, Imperial Knights. Which is better? Would you rather have a Castellan or 2 Gorkanauts? I know which one is better.
Comparing to the absolute top isn't neccessarily most sensible ideas. You want more of broken stuff?-) Maybe issue is with the imperial castellan(chaos castellan btw isn't causing nearly as much trouble) rather than gork/mork?
How good do those do against other comparable units?
And what's with "big shoota vs leman russ" talks? You aren't shooting big shootas vs leman russ unless leman russ is literally only target you have. Stompa has plenty of issues but big shoota firing vs leman russ being inefficient is hardly it. Right weapon for right target. Guns shouldn't be good against every target type or if it is pay premium for it.
Humour me, my gargantuan squiggoth came in today and I'm now super tempted to run it at a local tournament at my FLGS next weekend.
I'm aware that it's probably not the most competitive choice but want to give it a shot anyway, does anyone have advice on running one?
I've got a few ideas for how I'll run it. Currently I'm planning to give it 2 big zzappas and maximum amount of big shootas.
I'll be running it in a supreme command so it can get access to a clan trait. I'm debating between snakebites, freebootas, and deathskulls. Snakebites for the 6+ FNP which would give it an expected extra 5-6 wounds, Freebootas is a choice more dependent on the rest of the army, and Deathskulls to better capitalise on the big zappas.
Planning to chuck a Big Mek with KFF inside of it but not 100% sure what I'll shove inside. Contemplating tankbustas but they might be redundant with an obligatory unit of lootas on the table as well. Any thoughts?
If you chuck in KFF inside I would skip the deathskull then. You are giving up half the trait(which in the long run averages same to snakebite though snakebite is more gradual)
Tank bustas could be nice for dealing with tougher targets that lootas struggle with. Alternatively basic nobz as assault punch? You want to get there anyway.
Castellan is underpriced as gak. Comparing anything to it is unfair. Even if the stompa and the castellan swapped prices i guarantee the castellan would still see play while the stompa probably wouldnt (double gorks is already seen)
Mork/Gork are still over priced. Compare them to their closest competition, Imperial Knights. Which is better? Would you rather have a Castellan or 2 Gorkanauts? I know which one is better.
Comparing to the absolute top isn't neccessarily most sensible ideas. You want more of broken stuff?-) Maybe issue is with the imperial castellan(chaos castellan btw isn't causing nearly as much trouble) rather than gork/mork?
How good do those do against other comparable units?
And what's with "big shoota vs leman russ" talks? You aren't shooting big shootas vs leman russ unless leman russ is literally only target you have. Stompa has plenty of issues but big shoota firing vs leman russ being inefficient is hardly it. Right weapon for right target. Guns shouldn't be good against every target type or if it is pay premium for it.
The Castellan is only broken when you have the loyal 32 with it giving it a huge CP battery. The fact is that Gorkanauts/Morkanauts cost almost as much as regular knights but aren't nearly as good as them in any fashion.
The Stompa comparison was EVERY stompa gun not just the Big shootas. My point was that even when you stack the deck and fire EVERY available gun at a vehicle it still can barely kill it, against armies with -1 to hit the Stompa is basically fething useless in the shooting phase. You could DOUBLE the dakka of a Stompa and it still wouldn't be that great for the cost, and that is the issue. Team it with its massive price and its complete lack of access to stratagems and you realize that for yet another edition the Codex Stompa isn't worth fielding. Come to think of it....has the Stompa EVER been worth fielding? I mean the Codex Stompa mind you, not the FW variants.
Theres just so many unfair comparisons between knights and stompas. The only upside stompas have over knights is they are technically stronger in melee, but being stronger than a knight on an individual attack basis is kinda pointless.
Knight w/ gauntlet hits on 4/5/6's with 4 attacks at S16 AP4 6D with the added bonus of throwing the vehicle/monster it killed.
Stompa hits on 3/4/5/6's with 6/5/4/3 attacks at S20 AP5 6D, basically trading the vehicle/monster throw for not having a -1 to hit.
Who cares about S20? Is there a single T9 model in the game still? All i knew of in older editions got docked down to T8. Not to mention that 4th wound chart is bs and shouldnt exist, its basically dead once it hits 10 wounds as it cant do anything anymore.
Then of course the stompa's main gun is completely random shots and can potentially self-destroy turn1 so we cant use it again.
I Just had the worst game in recorded history, 6 '1's on 13 damage dice. 8 '1' and '2's on smashaguns D3 shots and so on...
I wonder, as you do not remember all the hits and misses, but you remember those important dice rolls, is there a way to have a higher probability to hit higher damage? Should I use a single specific dice to roll damages ? Would that help the statistics?
Only if that's loaded dice or seriously flawed one which amounts to same thing so you have dice that roll more 6's than it should. And doing either intentionally would be pretty much flat out cheating. Even if you didn't intentionally buy loaded dice but find out your dice is damaged so that it rolls more 6's...Well is that really fair play?
Played a great game today against a mechanicus player who brought along a knight. Turn 1 he dumped his entire army into killing my mek gunz....and failed, the dice gods were DEFINITELY not in his favor.
Here is the funny part though, I bum rushed a Bonecrusher into his dakkaline and managed to kill one of those Robot walkers they have and the following turn i damaged another one but he killed it...and heres the best part, Rolled Explode, did 6 damage to the knight, killed 2 of his HQs, wiped out an infantry squad, finished off 2 more of those robots and only cost me 3 boyz
But I will say this, Overwatch needs to be nerfed, I tried assaulting his damaged knight with 4 warbikers which all died, then with 8 boyz and a nob all died, 3 Scrapjets, he killed the first in overwatch, took the 2nd down to 1 wound which then failed its charge and then took the 3rd down to 3 wounds but managed to kill the knight finally by using the Mortal wound 3D6 charge stratagem.
Yes I know that is uncommon but jesus christ they need to change overwatch. You get 1 overwatch and that is it, getting to shoot 5 different times in the assault phase is ridiculous.
)
It will only lead to auto hitting misery. In fact don't charge a Hemlock at all. 
) the're relatively safe. And they do wreck face in that configuration. Sometimes those Lucky gitz get 3 hits for one kopta thanks to dakkadakka and Lucky rerolls 
. The other player's expensive 3W elite model squads hates them.
