Vineheart01 wrote: i just realized the Commander (im assuming thats what that bigger crisis suit is) on the far right of that image is HUGE.
That will make 0 sense if hes still T4 with a suit that massive.
It surprised me it just had the same rules as a crisis suit with the old model, let alone this one.
H.B.M.C. wrote: You are correct. I did not know the Pathfinder kit could do any other types of Drones, but it has the parts for a Gun Drone and a Shield Drone on top of everything else.
Which is good, considering the Shield Drone upgrade kit has disappeared from UKGW and is sold out in US.
It comes in the Broadside kit as well- bits to make 2 shield drones, missile drones, or gun drones.
I would not be surprised if the new FW kit includes parts to make Shield, Gun, Marker, or Guardian Drones.
Vineheart01 wrote: i just realized the Commander (im assuming thats what that bigger crisis suit is) on the far right of that image is HUGE.
That will make 0 sense if hes still T4 with a suit that massive.
Don't hold your breath. Broadsides are literally the size of a Dreadnought and are on a 60mm base, and are still T4. I highly doubt we'll see Crisis Commanders get better than T4 outside of Iridium Armor. Tau just don't get good (or logical) toughness anywhere, it might as well be our thing at this point.
The Ghostkeel is T5 though, so there's always hope that the Commander and Broadsides get bumped up in toughness.
Also, it might be a cool conversion to put the Ghostkeel secondary weapons on the arms, and then shoulder mount the CIR or Fusion Cannon on the shoulder, sort of like the Stormsurge.
Ghostkeel's also an MC though, while the Commander and Broadsides aren't. I sincerely hope at least Broadsides get a boost to their toughness (since Commanders can always buy Iridium Armor provided it's still in the codex), but I'm not expecting it to happen.
Are all pulse weapons supposed to be getting this treatment with the different stats at different ranges?
I was noticing that the new commander suit is equipped with a missile pod and burst cannon. I was just curious if there is any hints that the burst cannon will be changing.
What are the odds we can have all of the new pictures put in the first post? I've been checking in every few days but there are several pictures I haven't seen. Any word on when the codex is dropping?
Savageconvoy wrote: Are all pulse weapons supposed to be getting this treatment with the different stats at different ranges?
I was noticing that the new commander suit is equipped with a missile pod and burst cannon. I was just curious if there is any hints that the burst cannon will be changing.
Nah, the pulse driver has only one profile. This range-dependent firepower is seemingly a thing for the 'pulse blastX(/er or /cannon)' weapons.
I can see the new commander being a T5 monstrous creature at that size, wouldn't that also mean he could fire 3 weapons, 2 for MC and one for the multi tracker(?)? Would be a nice buff to see
MC would be kinda pushing it. T5 alone would make me happy lol. Unless the Iridium Armor is removed and its just included in the price - that would both be awesome (multiple commanders with T5 2+ Armor) and suck (no non-commanders with it) at the same time lol. Ork Warboss (or specifically Ghazzy) would be an MC before a Commander ever would.
Broadsides honestly i dont think should be T5. Theyre bigger because of excessive armor more than bigger gears n such. T5 Broadsides would be kinda....insane
Even though I own 4 enforcer suits (I love the scale and style of them compared with normal crisis suits), I don't want them to be monstrous creatures. I think having them be "iridium" suits standard (t5, 2+) puts them at a nice segway between the normal crisis suits and riptides. YMMV.
Vineheart01 wrote: MC would be kinda pushing it. T5 alone would make me happy lol. Unless the Iridium Armor is removed and its just included in the price - that would both be awesome (multiple commanders with T5 2+ Armor) and suck (no non-commanders with it) at the same time lol.
Ork Warboss (or specifically Ghazzy) would be an MC before a Commander ever would.
Broadsides honestly i dont think should be T5. Theyre bigger because of excessive armor more than bigger gears n such. T5 Broadsides would be kinda....insane
Why would T5 broadsides be insane? Look at the size of them. It would fit. I mean, obviously price accordingly, but otherwise it works.
Because what kills broadsides more than anything else? Getting sporked in 1 shot.
If broadsides were T5 i wouldnt fear lascannons anywhere near as much. Not many armies spam lascannons enough to burn through 12 wounds (including drones) and usually when they do my sheer numbers of firewarriors overrun them anyway.
It wouldnt be the most broken change but it would be pretty stupid because now a TON of weapons just became a LOT less menacing towards them. Anti-tank grade weapons are the answer to them, and T5 counters that thought process.
This game is full of unusual toughness values for the size of the model. Heck, the Stormsurge is a PERFECT example of this. Its the size of a Wraithknight yet its T6.....wut?
So instead they should be as tough as a space marine? Look at the size difference. Heck, look at the size difference of the crisis suit vs it. If it stayed the same size as the crisis, sure, but at it's size, that being T4 is ridiculous.
Marines arent multiwounded though. Theres also that argument.
Dont get me wrong it makes a lot more sense to have the suits above Stealth Suits to be T5+ because of their sheer size compared to a Marine. Stealthsuits should be T4 by that right too.
But, 1) that would be an unfair advantage that isnt Imperial or Eldar related so never going to happen and 2) that would just break Tau if our suits just got a +T1 across the board lol.
Considering how much suit-related stuff weve seen i'd be a bit surprised if they pulled Kroot stuff out of their ass.
Kroot are cool but lets face it just about everyone plays tau for the suits lol
True, I sculpt Tau armor on my kroot and use them as firewarriors, I think I might use them now as breachers, and keep the normal tau firewarriros and the standard.
I also converted my broadside into a kroot using a massive kroot rail guass weapon. =)
I honestly want the tau to use more auxillaries to fulfill very specific rolls.
edit:
a kroot in a Ghostkeel would be a dope as special character tho
Vineheart01 wrote: Marines arent multiwounded though. Theres also that argument.
Dont get me wrong it makes a lot more sense to have the suits above Stealth Suits to be T5+ because of their sheer size compared to a Marine. Stealthsuits should be T4 by that right too.
But, 1) that would be an unfair advantage that isnt Imperial or Eldar related so never going to happen and 2) that would just break Tau if our suits just got a +T1 across the board lol.
Oh no, I don't want crisis suits to be T4, just broadsides. They're a bit larger than dreadnoughts. They really deserve T5.
Why wouldnt they have 2+ armor? Terminators are significantly smaller and have 2+ armor. The scale is ridiculous between even a Crisis Suit and a Termie let alone a Broadside or Riptide.
Im willing to bet the only reason Ghostkeel/Stormsurge isnt 2+ armor is both because 4 non-unique units with 2+ armor is a bit over the top and also because Grav guns are the answer to literally everything, but are slightly less effective against 3+.
Really hate that gun btw. Its way too easy to just go "gravs will deal with that..." to way too many things.
I figured that the 3+ on the Ghostkeel and Stormsurge is because they aren't meant to be frontline heavy combat units like the riptide. 1 is an artillery platform and the other is a stealth unit. So probably a 3+ to represent heavy armor, but only covering vital areas rather than all encompassing.
But the point is that the Broadside right now costs as much as a Drednaught, is the size of a Drednaught, and is on a Drednaught base yet for some reason it's just a two wound terminator without Relentless and without an invul save.
T4 on a model like that is just an insult.
Vineheart01 wrote: Why wouldnt they have 2+ armor? Terminators are significantly smaller and have 2+ armor. The scale is ridiculous between even a Crisis Suit and a Termie let alone a Broadside or Riptide.
Im willing to bet the only reason Ghostkeel/Stormsurge isnt 2+ armor is both because 4 non-unique units with 2+ armor is a bit over the top and also because Grav guns are the answer to literally everything, but are slightly less effective against 3+.
Really hate that gun btw. Its way too easy to just go "gravs will deal with that..." to way too many things.
Considering we don't get the fluff mentioned Voidstar ( And don't get me started why it should be Air Caste piloting those) and they are supposedly as tough as Terminator armour and a little larger than stealth Suits I don't see why any Crisis frame suits shouldn't be 2+
I'm so modelling my own Voidstar as something but I dont know what yet.
Vineheart01 wrote: Marines arent multiwounded though. Theres also that argument.
Dont get me wrong it makes a lot more sense to have the suits above Stealth Suits to be T5+ because of their sheer size compared to a Marine. Stealthsuits should be T4 by that right too.
But, 1) that would be an unfair advantage that isnt Imperial or Eldar related so never going to happen and 2) that would just break Tau if our suits just got a +T1 across the board lol.
Oh no, I don't want crisis suits to be T4, just broadsides. They're a bit larger than dreadnoughts. They really deserve T5.
That would actually be a buff if our crisis suits/broadsides/commanders were 12/12/10 walkers with 3hp....with riptides/surges being 13/13/11. Ever faced the ork wall of steel list? If you arent tailored to deal with it, you ARENT dealing with it because thats just way too much armor for your average list to deal with. And as Tau, we have access to a 4++ on said walkers. Again, that would be a buff, not a nerf.
Walkers instead of creatures would either be pathetically weak and make tau unplayable, or overpowered as gak
Vineheart01 wrote: Wasnt the Orca one of those "neat models but it sucks" type of things?
It only has 2 guns, long barreled burst and a MP so it literally does nothing but transport. 400pts for an air transport that houses 57 models (super heavy so multiple units).
I remember i wanted one because i actually liked the model but the rules pushed me away from it big time.
Kinda like the Manta. Awesome model, feth those rules lol (which by the way for some reason got promoted on the front page of FW website)
Yes, the Orca is pretty bad. However, it just looks awesome, and is a ton of fun.
I proxied one in several apoc games, and it usually got shot down before it could ever unload anything (6 HP on a non-jinking av12 model is pretty bad....SH can't jink).
The model while looking good, was a huge pain to put together, as the casting was just bad - (no, not recasts - the fw cast was bad - old molds) and lot of the parts did just not fit.
(I watched a few other assy vids, and all suffer the same issues).
I do love the flying shoebox however, as it looks great on the table and is fun to fly around in big apoc games. I play in narrative events sometimes, and usually they will make some special rules or missions for it...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
maceria wrote: It will move 57 infantry across a 10' table. If you have need of that capacity, it's fantastic.
Yes - this is true. Usually does not make it more than about 3 feet, but in theory its true.
Vineheart01 wrote: MC would be kinda pushing it. T5 alone would make me happy lol. Unless the Iridium Armor is removed and its just included in the price - that would both be awesome (multiple commanders with T5 2+ Armor) and suck (no non-commanders with it) at the same time lol.
Ork Warboss (or specifically Ghazzy) would be an MC before a Commander ever would.
Broadsides honestly i dont think should be T5. Theyre bigger because of excessive armor more than bigger gears n such. T5 Broadsides would be kinda....insane
Why would T5 broadsides be insane? Look at the size of them. It would fit. I mean, obviously price accordingly, but otherwise it works.
Because only marine centurions get T5 on multi wound models.
For anyone wondering, I translated the tau text on GW's homepage with the ghost keel. A few things seems wrong, but mostly its all there
ghost keel battlesuits lunge from the shadows to rake their prey with lethal volleys of fire. wreathed in stealth fields projected by their hovering drones, the half-seen battlesuits move with terrifying speed for their size.
should one of their prey level especially large or deadly weapons, an ecsfnine? pilot will trigger his countermeasure suite sending targeting systems haywire
warning: countersensory warfare suites engaged
unable to lock on to target
disengage before proceeding
one moment the enemy is advancing across the battlefield, the next looming killers are bounding through their midst with guns blazing.
panicked return fire flies wide, the ghostkeels’ attackers unable to draw a bead on their sensor-baffled targets
amid the resultant confusion, the ghostkeels deliver their killing targets into glowing atom
Vineheart01 wrote: That would actually be a buff if our crisis suits/broadsides/commanders were 12/12/10 walkers with 3hp....with riptides/surges being 13/13/11. Ever faced the ork wall of steel list? If you arent tailored to deal with it, you ARENT dealing with it because thats just way too much armor for your average list to deal with. And as Tau, we have access to a 4++ on said walkers. Again, that would be a buff, not a nerf.
Walkers instead of creatures would either be pathetically weak and make tau unplayable, or overpowered as gak
12/12/10 makes more sense for broadsides, they have a huge REACTOR on their backs. Any bolters piercing those should send them sky high. I play tau and even I know 11 on the back makes no sense. Heck they should add +3 inches to their explosion radius if you want flavor.
Vineheart01 wrote: Marines arent multiwounded though. Theres also that argument.
Dont get me wrong it makes a lot more sense to have the suits above Stealth Suits to be T5+ because of their sheer size compared to a Marine. Stealthsuits should be T4 by that right too.
But, 1) that would be an unfair advantage that isnt Imperial or Eldar related so never going to happen and 2) that would just break Tau if our suits just got a +T1 across the board lol.
Oh no, I don't want crisis suits to be T4, just broadsides. They're a bit larger than dreadnoughts. They really deserve T5.
Spoiler:
No what they really deserve is av12/12/10 3 hp
Wait, that would make the Tau Dreadnought equivalent an actual Dreadnought...
I've more than once thought that the battlesuits should be walkers, but I also realized that a Relentless Broadside immune to weaponry of less than strength 6 would be incredibly potent.
Liking the look of the ghostkeel, may pick one up (damn, it's expensive though).
GW really should go back to the design board with MC's/Walkers. At what point does thing stop becoming a suit of armor and become a vehicle? There's no consistency.
It actually makes sense for the mandatory LoW character(s) to be all three of Aun'va, Farsight and Shadowsun given their roles for the faction compared to other LoW characters. We know there will only be one though so here is my prediction; fluff-wise it should be Aun'va as he is essentially the supreme leader of all Tau, but GW will give it to Farsight because he is the most classic "super" character of the Tau.
No idea unfortunately. Presumably the oncoming White Dwarf has that information plus its rules but luchiban didn't show us those particular goods so we will have to wait and see.
Have we seen anything to indicate that Shield Drones still exist in the new Codex?
In...what way is the guardian drone weaker than the shield?
Shield is 4++ to itself, and that's it.
Guardian is 5++ to itself and a 6++ to the entire unit, with possible 5++.
They don't do the same thing. shield blocks a single shot better, but a guardian provides a blanket protection.
For a large squad, the guardian is far superior. for a small squad, its questionable.
The Tau Firewarrior Breachers seems a strange unit.
Their firepower is worse then the (current) carbine, except at 5"range (in practice: firing overwatch).
The seem to be written as a cheap unit to take and defend an objective. The turret and field-amplifier array give them more "staying power" then normal Firewarriors.
The Tau Tidewall Rampart will probably also be impressive at defending.
So then it's about 50/50 whether it'll be limited or not. Personally I'm betting it's limited, but hopefully not since I'd actually like to be able to buy it some day.
I want the rampart. But I dont want to be forced to buy it right away because it is limited (or not). I would rather spend my money on minis and the book first.
Vineheart01 wrote: That would actually be a buff if our crisis suits/broadsides/commanders were 12/12/10 walkers with 3hp....with riptides/surges being 13/13/11. Ever faced the ork wall of steel list? If you arent tailored to deal with it, you ARENT dealing with it because thats just way too much armor for your average list to deal with. And as Tau, we have access to a 4++ on said walkers. Again, that would be a buff, not a nerf.
Walkers instead of creatures would either be pathetically weak and make tau unplayable, or overpowered as gak
It would also allow weapon destroyed and shaken /stunned, something mc's should have anyway.
Vineheart01 wrote: That would actually be a buff if our crisis suits/broadsides/commanders were 12/12/10 walkers with 3hp....with riptides/surges being 13/13/11. Ever faced the ork wall of steel list? If you arent tailored to deal with it, you ARENT dealing with it because thats just way too much armor for your average list to deal with. And as Tau, we have access to a 4++ on said walkers. Again, that would be a buff, not a nerf.
Walkers instead of creatures would either be pathetically weak and make tau unplayable, or overpowered as gak
It would also allow weapon destroyed and shaken /stunned, something mc's should have anyway.
Damn straight.
Correct. Also make them immune to poison which makes sense.
Silly tau, t5 is for humans!
Not really - is for massively reconstructed humans more metal than flesh or for super humans.................so Astartes.
Not really - is for massively reconstructed humans more metal than flesh or for super humans.................so Astartes.
Unless that Astartes turns traitor, doubles in size and can literally turn his skin into armour and weapons, then it's back to T4 because otherwise loyalist players cry and cry and cry.
Not really - is for massively reconstructed humans more metal than flesh or for super humans.................so Astartes.
Unless that Astartes turns traitor, doubles in size and can literally turn his skin into armour and weapons, then it's back to T4 because otherwise loyalist players cry and cry and cry.
Oh yeah, they made Oblits T4 didn't they?
"A guy is bigger and more cyberdemon than human? Better make him as tough as your average marine" - GW logic.
To be fair T4 is Space Marine toughness. T2/3 is your average human/eldar. Not that puny in the grand scale of things. Plus don't they get a pretty sweet saving throw?
Well the pricing sheet doesn't say that the Tidewall is either limited or direct only (and one of the AoS books in the same sheet is down as online only), so hopefully the terrain is a general release.
They get a 2+ for having fleshmetal, and a 5++ for being a Daemon.
Basically they're Devestator Centurions that pay 15 points for less stats, a powerfist, an invulnerable save and the loss of ATSKNF/Chapter Tactics/a second gun. (Oh and Deep Strike/Fear... but who cares)
Best 15 points ever /sarcasm
But anway, Tau! New Models! Insane Prices! Woo! (best $100-something USD/$999999999999999999.........-whatever AUD/NZD/CAD ever spent)
Coldstar Details missing, Strike Team missing. Rules for the fortification. And i WANT to know if the new crisis suits have two of every weapon options available... And a codex release date, because this is the first thing i will purchase :> Pretty stoked for the next details, the last week was like christmas <3 even if the stormsurge is quite weird and i do not see uses for the breachers...if only they could DS :X
I'm frankly surprised we've received so much so quickly - generally these leaks occur via people getting the next week's WD a bit early and then posting pictures.
But unless they're releasing the Breacher FWs, the new Crisis Suits + Commander, the campaign boxes, and the new terrain all in one week, the leaks we've seen cover more than just one week ahead.
The only thing really left to leak is the codex itself and the rules for the Taugis Defense Line.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: They get a 2+ for having fleshmetal, and a 5++ for being a Daemon.
Basically they're Devestator Centurions that pay 15 points for less stats, a powerfist, an invulnerable save and the loss of ATSKNF/Chapter Tactics/a second gun. (Oh and Deep Strike/Fear... but who cares)
Best 15 points ever /sarcasm
But anway, Tau! New Models! Insane Prices! Woo! (best $100-something USD/$999999999999999999.........-whatever AUD/NZD/CAD ever spent)
Well let's not underplay the value of an invuln save on a an already 2+ 2w model. And you can make them T5 for 6 points each..or increase their invuln save.
I want to see the tau wall rules, I hope it's something with new mechanics
I can't see it moving though, that would be a nightmare with terrain
Matt.Kingsley wrote: They get a 2+ for having fleshmetal, and a 5++ for being a Daemon.
Basically they're Devestator Centurions that pay 15 points for less stats, a powerfist, an invulnerable save and the loss of ATSKNF/Chapter Tactics/a second gun. (Oh and Deep Strike/Fear... but who cares)
Best 15 points ever /sarcasm
But anway, Tau! New Models! Insane Prices! Woo! (best $100-something USD/$999999999999999999.........-whatever AUD/NZD/CAD ever spent)
Well let's not underplay the value of an invuln save on a an already 2+ 2w model. And you can make them T5 for 6 points each..or increase their invuln save.
I want to see the tau wall rules, I hope it's something with new mechanics
I can't see it moving though, that would be a nightmare with terrain
You're not allowed to get any new toys let me win a few more games vs you first. :(
I actually wouldnt be surprised if they moved either Farsight or Aun'Va into LoW if not both. And not with a single stat change either ala Ghazzy (god they nerfbatted him so hard in that codex...lol).
I already never use Farsight or Aun'va even though i really want to just because theyre either performing a different role the rest of my units are (farsight is melee first, shooty second) or insanely easy to remove (aun'va). I can only keep my Ethereals alive because of ablative wounds and/or transport protection. Aun'va's scepter save is too easy to bypass since its considered a cover save for some stupid reason. I want to use them because theyre cool as hell. But they just dont work with the Tau format at all.
Dont get me wrong. If IC's werent denied squads of MCs to attach to in 7th, i would bring Farsight almost every game and slap him into a squad of Ghostkeels. They, unlike crisis suits, can actually be a melee threat if need be. Farsight would love to have a squad that can actually melee for once.
MoD_Legion wrote: Dunno if they would move the characters to LoW, they already made the new stormsurge a LoW so why make more LoW's as you can only use one.
Just about every Codex has had special characters moved to LOW. It would not be surprising to see Farsight to get moved to LOW.
And if memory serves, the only one thats still somewhat worth it is the Space Wolves guy. Forget his name but when my friend got that codex i remember going "He's actually not that bad for a LoW" but i dont recall him being insanely powerful, just good.
All the others have been trash.
GW would never do this because it would require a game-wide point rebalance but i kinda wish LoW was intentionally undercosted units, but were limited by points rather than formations/FoC's so you cannot spam them. The point being that one LoW slot you get per say 1000pts (meaning under 1k you cannot have one at all) is a huge asset to your army, while the rest is designed to support it. Killing one should never happen without another one or an unfavorable point-to-damage ratio being involved. Most of them are pretty....lack luster while others are WTFOMGLEETHAX strong lol like i said it would take a major points overhaul across the board to make it work. Would make it actually a valuable slot for everybody rather than just those than have Ctans or Imperial Knights. I intend to use the Stormsurge because its not "bad" by any means, but if i were to play with intent to win at all costs i would never dream of bringing it.
Currently to me, LoW feels like another Heavy slot for specific units rather than a lump sum. Vast majority of them outside Forgeworld supers really dont feel any different than another unit other than bigger/more rules (but same or overly costed). Then theres the oddball thats undercosted, like LoW SHOULD be.
Right. And there's no telling if the Tau detachment will let you use multiple LoW (stormsurge + character). Stop thinking CAD. That's not how the game is played, anymore.
Yeah the CAD mentality is something i fall victim to all too often. I never think of it, and considering Orks kinda REQUIRE that play you can guess i dont have much fun playing orks atm since i usually play 2000pt games (thats impossible to do a SINGLE tactic with one CAD with orks, you fill your slots long before points)
Not quite as important for my Tau but it does prevent me from bringing Sniper Drones, which i do actually like using.
Kanluwen wrote: What boxed sets lately, that were not just repackages, have not come with all of the options?
Skitarii vanguard/rangers for one. You can have three special weapons in a squad, and it comes with only one of each.
If you really want to bring that up, then you need to bring it up for every single boxed set ever done that did not include enough for you to do multiples of a single option.
You can do one of each special weapon option and you get three special weapon options, ergo it comes with enough parts to fulfill the criteria.
Kanluwen wrote: What boxed sets lately, that were not just repackages, have not come with all of the options?
Skitarii vanguard/rangers for one. You can have three special weapons in a squad, and it comes with only one of each.
If you really want to bring that up, then you need to bring it up for every single boxed set ever done that did not include enough for you to do multiples of a single option.
You can do one of each special weapon option and you get three special weapon options, ergo it comes with enough parts to fulfill the criteria.
No sane player would ever build a 10 man squad with 3 different special weapons. Ignoring synergy BETWEEN units, you definitely want synergy WITHIN units. It doesn't make sense to take different weapons with different ranges, strengths and AP values in one squad. Depending on the target, half of your weapons aren't being used effectively.
The recent Space Marine Devastators box is another example of a box that can't actually make all of the options a unit can take. It would need to come with 4 of each heavy weapon and it doesn't. If I want to have a unit with 4 Grav Cannons, I need to acquire extras either by scouring eBay/bits sites or by paying for an extra Devastators box and not using the overwhelming majority of the kit. It would be better if the kit just came with all of the options or if the rules mirrored what was in the kit.
GW would never do this because it would require a game-wide point rebalance but i kinda wish LoW was intentionally undercosted units, but were limited by points rather than formations/FoC's so you cannot spam them. The point being that one LoW slot you get per say 1000pts (meaning under 1k you cannot have one at all) is a huge asset to your army, while the rest is designed to support it. Killing one should never happen without another one or an unfavorable point-to-damage ratio being involved. Most of them are pretty....lack luster while others are WTFOMGLEETHAX strong lol like i said it would take a major points overhaul across the board to make it work. Would make it actually a valuable slot for everybody rather than just those than have Ctans or Imperial Knights. I intend to use the Stormsurge because its not "bad" by any means, but if i were to play with intent to win at all costs i would never dream of bringing it.
Currently to me, LoW feels like another Heavy slot for specific units rather than a lump sum. Vast majority of them outside Forgeworld supers really dont feel any different than another unit other than bigger/more rules (but same or overly costed). Then theres the oddball thats undercosted, like LoW SHOULD be.
Ugh, no on the highlighted portion. I'd quit 40K before going back to 'Herohammer' (I won't play in games with named characters as it is) and if you can only kill a LoW with another LoW, why do you even bother to bring an army?
No sane player would ever build a 10 man squad with 3 different special weapons. Ignoring synergy BETWEEN units, you definitely want synergy WITHIN units. It doesn't make sense to take different weapons with different ranges, strengths and AP values in one squad. Depending on the target, half of your weapons aren't being used effectively.
The recent Space Marine Devastators box is another example of a box that can't actually make all of the options a unit can take. It would need to come with 4 of each heavy weapon and it doesn't. If I want to have a unit with 4 Grav Cannons, I need to acquire extras either by scouring eBay/bits sites or by paying for an extra Devastators box and not using the overwhelming majority of the kit. It would be better if the kit just came with all of the options or if the rules mirrored what was in the kit.
Here's the problem:
Players want duplicates, insisting that if it does not allow you to build 4 of the exact same Heavy Weapon then it is misleading.
GW is going by what the wording of the actual option is:
"Special Weapons" or "Heavy Weapons"
Does it suck? Hell yes it does. But realistically, they live up to what they say. You can build enough Special or Heavy Weapon options from the boxes.
You would have a case if those entries were written as "Up to three Transauranic Arquebus/Grav Cannon/Superwin Button Option", but I kinda feel like this whole circular logic about "Does it come with all the options or not?" is why they implemented the "Special" and "Heavy" lists in the first place.
No sane player would ever build a 10 man squad with 3 different special weapons. Ignoring synergy BETWEEN units, you definitely want synergy WITHIN units. It doesn't make sense to take different weapons with different ranges, strengths and AP values in one squad. Depending on the target, half of your weapons aren't being used effectively.
The recent Space Marine Devastators box is another example of a box that can't actually make all of the options a unit can take. It would need to come with 4 of each heavy weapon and it doesn't. If I want to have a unit with 4 Grav Cannons, I need to acquire extras either by scouring eBay/bits sites or by paying for an extra Devastators box and not using the overwhelming majority of the kit. It would be better if the kit just came with all of the options or if the rules mirrored what was in the kit.
Here's the problem:
Players want duplicates, insisting that if it does not allow you to build 4 of the exact same Heavy Weapon then it is misleading.
GW is going by what the wording of the actual option is:
"Special Weapons" or "Heavy Weapons"
Does it suck? Hell yes it does. But realistically, they live up to what they say. You can build enough Special or Heavy Weapon options from the boxes.
You would have a case if those entries were written as "Up to three Transauranic Arquebus/Grav Cannon/Superwin Button Option", but I kinda feel like this whole circular logic about "Does it come with all the options or not?" is why they implemented the "Special" and "Heavy" lists in the first place.
You're arguing semantics. Four Grav Cannons is clearly a valid option for a Devastators kit. It's impossible to build this optional load out with the current kit. Your defense seems to be that GW promised four weapons but that when you asked where your four Grav Cannons were they steepled their fingers and said "Muhahaha... I never said four of the SAME weapons. FOOLED YOU."
Ultimately, a 10 man Skitarii Rangers unit with 1 Trans. Arquebus costs 39 USD and will leave you with a host of leftover bits. A 10 man Skitarii Rangers unit with 3 Trans. Arquebuses costs 117 USD and comes with a lot more leftover bits. You're talking an increase of 300% in actual price to get the valid, game legal load out you want. If your want more Rangers or Vanguard, you're in luck because your bits box now has enough to make 20 guys... so long as you don't want to give any of them an Arquebus.
Similarly, a 5 man Dev Squad with 2 Grav Cannons costs 46 USD. A 5 man Dev Squad with 4 Grav Cannons costs 92 USD, a 200% increase in actual price. Again, you'll have extra dudes, but I hope you don't want to equip any of them with a Grav Cannon.
Argue semantics all you want. The reality of the situation is that GW sells many kits that don't contain all of the legal game options. To get all of the legal game options frequently requires the purchase of more of the same kit with potentially quite a few models going to waste.
Your argument, however, does not hold weight. What benefit is there for gw to give you all the specific weapon options you want in the Devastator kit for example? If you want all the options that badly you will pay for the privilege. Ergo it is beneficial for them not to put every possible set up in the box. Will they lose players? Possibly. Will they sell more kits? Most definitely.
changemod wrote: Well, let's face it: HQ Lords of War are just there to normalise the slot to try to make people more readily accept superheavy units.
THIS !
One of the ways GW uses to push us to apocalypse-size our games. Just for the sake of the ca$h.
I don't agree. HQ Lords of War are a means of freeing up the HQ slot for expensive characters. Comparing Dante with a Wraithknight is not fair to Dante, or Ghazgull, or any other HQ character.
No sane player would ever build a 10 man squad with 3 different special weapons. Ignoring synergy BETWEEN units, you definitely want synergy WITHIN units. It doesn't make sense to take different weapons with different ranges, strengths and AP values in one squad. Depending on the target, half of your weapons aren't being used effectively.
The recent Space Marine Devastators box is another example of a box that can't actually make all of the options a unit can take. It would need to come with 4 of each heavy weapon and it doesn't. If I want to have a unit with 4 Grav Cannons, I need to acquire extras either by scouring eBay/bits sites or by paying for an extra Devastators box and not using the overwhelming majority of the kit. It would be better if the kit just came with all of the options or if the rules mirrored what was in the kit.
Here's the problem:
Players want duplicates, insisting that if it does not allow you to build 4 of the exact same Heavy Weapon then it is misleading.
GW is going by what the wording of the actual option is:
"Special Weapons" or "Heavy Weapons"
Does it suck? Hell yes it does. But realistically, they live up to what they say. You can build enough Special or Heavy Weapon options from the boxes.
You would have a case if those entries were written as "Up to three Transauranic Arquebus/Grav Cannon/Superwin Button Option", but I kinda feel like this whole circular logic about "Does it come with all the options or not?" is why they implemented the "Special" and "Heavy" lists in the first place.
Before Ad Mech, Loyalist Marines et all start whining that your units don't come with 2-4x each weapon option, at least you guys get 1 of each available option!!
You know what Chaos plays get? Maybe half our possible options, if we're lucky!
Want to know what our only available plastic heavy weapon is? A bloody Heavy Bolter! Our Terminator kit cannot even build a playable unit, and is outright missing the likes of Combi-Plasmas (our best option) and Lightning claws... (you can't even build the basic 5x power weapon + combi-bolter from our kit!)
We currently have one single kit that gives us all of a unit's possible options. (Raptors/Warptalons)
At least the new Tau, and all the other recent releases over the past 4-5+ years have allowed at least one of each special/heavy weapon option. For some of us, we can only imagine what it must be like to not have to scrounge across bits sites, and/or fork out for 2-3+ loyalist kits just to build & convert our own options. (Feth it, even Sisters have an easier time gathering their special/heavy weapon options than Chaos Marine do!)
No sane player would ever build a 10 man squad with 3 different special weapons. Ignoring synergy BETWEEN units, you definitely want synergy WITHIN units. It doesn't make sense to take different weapons with different ranges, strengths and AP values in one squad. Depending on the target, half of your weapons aren't being used effectively.
The recent Space Marine Devastators box is another example of a box that can't actually make all of the options a unit can take. It would need to come with 4 of each heavy weapon and it doesn't. If I want to have a unit with 4 Grav Cannons, I need to acquire extras either by scouring eBay/bits sites or by paying for an extra Devastators box and not using the overwhelming majority of the kit. It would be better if the kit just came with all of the options or if the rules mirrored what was in the kit.
All three of the Skitarii special weapons actually are effective against both infantry and vehicles. There is some loss of synergy (the primary example is switching a radium carbine for an arquebus, in which case effectiveness against hordes drops a lot within 18") in favor of versatility, but not much.
changemod wrote: Well, let's face it: HQ Lords of War are just there to normalise the slot to try to make people more readily accept superheavy units.
THIS !
One of the ways GW uses to push us to apocalypse-size our games. Just for the sake of the ca$h.
I don't agree. HQ Lords of War are a means of freeing up the HQ slot for expensive characters. Comparing Dante with a Wraithknight is not fair to Dante, or Ghazgull, or any other HQ character.
Thats what makes it dumb though. LoWs are limited heavily unless you go Unbound. If you are playing where LoW are allowed, why on earth would you bring a named HQ thats a LoW for some reason instead of a Wraithknight or Imperial Knight? Said named characters should get a buff because theyre in LoW, especially with the current game mentality of more than one CAD or Unbound eliminating the crowded HQ slot problem. Ghazzy is the only one that could easily fit the big nasty unit idea that is LoW, but his rules dont reflect it (even though the fluff does). The rest simply arent amazing enough compared to the multitude of options.
They could easily slap Farsight into LoW for this logic alone since technically Tau have a lot of HQs, just not many that are used commonly. Yes it frees up an HQ slot, but it removes a Stormsurge/Ta'unar/Tigershark option, which are infinitely the better choice. One could argue the Farsight Bomb would be the reason for him being LoW, but honestly i can easily see that being removed as a rule and added as a Formation anyway since it easily hits 1000pts or so.
Yeah but you forget that GW dont like chaos marines ! I mean if you have decent chaos marine figures then people will want to play them and then you will just have loads of games of chaos marines vs normal marines and we all know that theirs no money in that !! lol
It's not possible to put every weapon option in every kit for some kits, without having to pack those kits into a bigger box. You'd also end up with way too much wasted plastic.
What would you do with 5 extra missile launchers, heavy bolters, heavy plasma, etc. ? On a Sternguard box, are they supposed to pack like 60 weapons for 5 models?
A much better route would be special weapons frames for the most popular special weapons that people are short on. Let's be honest: It's combo meltas, grav guns and grav cannons we want. Nobody is looking for 3 more missile launchers and heavy bolters, nobody wants 4 more power swords, nobody wants a full set of storm bolters for their sternguard.
What you're really asking for is a full set of the cheapest, the most effective, and the most powerful weapons, the rest be damned. Which isn't going to even be possible, because those change much more frequently than the models do. For example, today infernus pistols suck. But make them cheap upgrades, and soddenly, they are the best thing ever.
vitae_drinker wrote: Your argument, however, does not hold weight. What benefit is there for gw to give you all the specific weapon options you want in the Devastator kit for example? If you want all the options that badly you will pay for the privilege. Ergo it is beneficial for them not to put every possible set up in the box. Will they lose players? Possibly. Will they sell more kits? Most definitely.
It may anger you, yet you still play.
I feel like we're arguing different things. I'm not making value judgments, nor am I having any sort of emotional response. Games Workshop tells you that you can equip a 5 man Devastators kit in a variety of ways. They then offer to sell you a 5 man Devastators kit. Presumably, this kit is intended to be used to build 5 Devastators. In reality, this kit can only be used to build SOME of the potential load outs. At best (and most likely, I think), this is just a disconnect between the rules studio and the design studio. At worst, this is intentional false advertising as the kit is only SOMETIMES suitable for use as a 5 man Devastator Squad.
I understand that they're looking to maximize profit, but at what point are we OK with this? By your reasoning, GW should only have included 1 of each heavy weapon in the Dev kit. That way, if you want a unit with 4 Grav Cannons, you can 'pay for the privilege' to the tune of 184 USD for 5 guys. What a steal at a cost of only 36.80 USD per model!
As an FYI, I don't tend to buy into this nonsense and don't, in fact, play with these types of kits in a vacuum or when starting a new army. 92 USD is simply too much money to spend for 5 Power Armored dudes with big guns. 117 USD is too much for a fully equipped 10 Skitarii Rangers.
So vote with your feet. Don't like their business practices? Don't buy their stuff. Don't like it enough to play their game any more? Don't. It's really easy.
Obviously it doesn't bother you enough to not play anymore and you can always buy the bits you want elsewhere. So, I'm not sure what you're really complaining about. They have to make choices, and choices cost money. To them, having fewer of more weapon types means they can cut fewer sprue molds while still providing options. Otherwise, why not just cut a sprue of grav guns and 5 marines and call it a day?
Everything comes down to what it costs them as a business to keep things in production vs what they can bring in from sales vs providing options to customers vs not wasting money on things that will never be bought while still turning a profit.
As I said, if it pisses you off, stop giving them money. It's easy.
I agree with Exergy , since the stormsurge has a 3+ save. I won't be surprised if the riptide also drops to a 3+. Which will make me very sad. Though this is all speculation.
vitae_drinker wrote: So vote with your feet. Don't like their business practices? Don't buy their stuff. Don't like it enough to play their game any more? Don't. It's really easy.
Obviously it doesn't bother you enough to not play anymore and you can always buy the bits you want elsewhere. So, I'm not sure what you're really complaining about. They have to make choices, and choices cost money. To them, having fewer of more weapon types means they can cut fewer sprue molds while still providing options. Otherwise, why not just cut a sprue of grav guns and 5 marines and call it a day?
Everything comes down to what it costs them as a business to keep things in production vs what they can bring in from sales vs providing options to customers vs not wasting money on things that will never be bought while still turning a profit.
As I said, if it pisses you off, stop giving them money. It's easy.
You guys are funny. I'm not pissed. Like I said previously, this isn't an emotional response. I don't actually play more than a handful of games every year. I can't remember the last game I played. I'm more of a painter/hobbyist. My point is that GW markets a kit to be used as XYZ in their game and this is only true sometimes. For people like me who don't play, it matter not at all. For long time gamers with deep bitz bins, it matters not at all. For new players or players starting a new army, this can be a bitter pill to swallow. They may purchase a kit thinking (fairly) that it will build the unit they spent time designing from their Codex, but then be shocked and disappointed to find that it won't.
For a company that is experiencing consistent reductions in year over year same store sales as well as overall revenue, you'd think they'd want to make customers happy and not antagonize them. How hard would it have been to write rules that allow a Dev Squad up to 2 (instead of 4) of the same weapon? Boom. All of a sudden the rules match the kit.
That's a really good question. Why don't you raise a few hundred millions of pounds, buy the company, and ask them rather than random people on the internet?
vitae_drinker wrote: That's a really good question. Why don't you raise a few hundred millions of pounds, buy the company, and ask them rather than random people on the internet?
Note that product picture, magazine picture and even codex picture Crisis suits are frequently modeled with a pretty random assortment of weapons instead of two of the same.
Thats because they typically cant have the same weapon twice unless its twinlinked. The current rules is more of a loophole than direct allowance for dual nontwinlinked weapons. Lot of people still dont do dual same weapons on them, but they use similar weapons (burst/mp for best RoF at 18" or plasma/fusion for high AP)
Honestly im surprised it never got FAQ'd, and im gonna be a bit upset if it changes lol. I like my dual-burst cannon commanders with a drone controller attached to the 10 drones my piranhas dumped off rofl
vitae_drinker wrote: That's a really good question. Why don't you raise a few hundred millions of pounds, buy the company, and ask them rather than random people on the internet?
I can only explain theory.
Someone tried that on dakka. The mods locked the thread. Now that is settled, can we get back to the Tau?
Orrus wrote: Anyone else concerned by the 3+ armour save?
If this only has a 3+ why would a broadside or a riptide have anything better?
We havent seen the new codex, but riptides might be getting a nerf. They might be going down to 3+ as well.
There is no evidence for this, and is total speculation. There are in fact reasons for it, both crunch and fluff ones. Crunch-wise, it makes both the Stormsurge and Ghostkeel more resistant to grav, which has become the weapon of choice for hunting anything that's not Orks, Gaunt hordes, or DE. The 3+ armor makes it a bit harder for grav to kill these guys while still affording them a decent save against lighter weaponry. So while these guys are more vulnerable to AP3 weapons, they are stronger against the new go to for imperial armies, while Broadsides and Riptides can stand up to AP3, but are weaker to grav. It's a tradeoff, you decide what you want to be safer against, since Riptides and Stormsurges fill the similar roles fairly long range anti-everything guns with some AT potential and horde clearing capabilities), as do Ghostkeels and Broadsides (either AT with S8 AP1 weapons or light vehicle/medium infantry hunting with S7 AP4 and S5 AP5).
Fluff-wise, well the Broadside is basically just a Crisis Suit frame with the jetpack stripped off and as much armor as can be carried by the frame strapped onto it. While the Ghostkeel and Stormsurge may be bigger, the Broadside has much thicker armor, thus the better armor save. The Riptide, meanwhile, uses a new form of armor plating, nanocrystalline alloy or something like that, that is extremely difficult, expensive, and time consuming to produce, leading to it only being used on Riptides. As for why Ghostkeels and Stormsurges don't get any, Ghostkeels have their stealth fields and ECM suite to disrupt enemy fire and make it harder to hit, meaning it doesn't need as heavy armor since it shouldn't even be getting hit in the first place. And Stormsurges are backfield artillery units who shouldn't really be targeted by enemy fire at all, while Riptides are frontline shock and awe units meant to get in the enemy's face and mow them down.
There is no reason beyond fearmongering or wishlisting to believe that Riptides or Broadsides will get a nerf down to a 3+. Beyond the reasons I just talked about, the most logical reason is that GW didn't want a codex to have 5 different units with a 2+ save (Riptides, Broadsides, Iridium Commanders, Stormsurges, and Ghostkeels). Now we get choices as far as what we want to be more protected from, either AP3 or grav, and to be perfectly honest, we as Tau didn't need another pair of 2+ MCs/GMCs.
No sane player would ever build a 10 man squad with 3 different special weapons. Ignoring synergy BETWEEN units, you definitely want synergy WITHIN units. It doesn't make sense to take different weapons with different ranges, strengths and AP values in one squad. Depending on the target, half of your weapons aren't being used effectively.
The recent Space Marine Devastators box is another example of a box that can't actually make all of the options a unit can take. It would need to come with 4 of each heavy weapon and it doesn't. If I want to have a unit with 4 Grav Cannons, I need to acquire extras either by scouring eBay/bits sites or by paying for an extra Devastators box and not using the overwhelming majority of the kit. It would be better if the kit just came with all of the options or if the rules mirrored what was in the kit.
Here's the problem:
Players want duplicates, insisting that if it does not allow you to build 4 of the exact same Heavy Weapon then it is misleading.
GW is going by what the wording of the actual option is:
"Special Weapons" or "Heavy Weapons"
Does it suck? Hell yes it does. But realistically, they live up to what they say. You can build enough Special or Heavy Weapon options from the boxes.
You would have a case if those entries were written as "Up to three Transauranic Arquebus/Grav Cannon/Superwin Button Option", but I kinda feel like this whole circular logic about "Does it come with all the options or not?" is why they implemented the "Special" and "Heavy" lists in the first place.
You're arguing semantics. Four Grav Cannons is clearly a valid option for a Devastators kit. It's impossible to build this optional load out with the current kit. Your defense seems to be that GW promised four weapons but that when you asked where your four Grav Cannons were they steepled their fingers and said "Muhahaha... I never said four of the SAME weapons. FOOLED YOU."
Ultimately, a 10 man Skitarii Rangers unit with 1 Trans. Arquebus costs 39 USD and will leave you with a host of leftover bits. A 10 man Skitarii Rangers unit with 3 Trans. Arquebuses costs 117 USD and comes with a lot more leftover bits. You're talking an increase of 300% in actual price to get the valid, game legal load out you want. If your want more Rangers or Vanguard, you're in luck because your bits box now has enough to make 20 guys... so long as you don't want to give any of them an Arquebus.
Similarly, a 5 man Dev Squad with 2 Grav Cannons costs 46 USD. A 5 man Dev Squad with 4 Grav Cannons costs 92 USD, a 200% increase in actual price. Again, you'll have extra dudes, but I hope you don't want to equip any of them with a Grav Cannon.
Argue semantics all you want. The reality of the situation is that GW sells many kits that don't contain all of the legal game options. To get all of the legal game options frequently requires the purchase of more of the same kit with potentially quite a few models going to waste.
Imagine how GK feel that they get one hammer per Term box and you can load a full group of paladins out with them. Need too purchase 4 more boxes to get a group of 5 hammers.
changemod wrote: Well, let's face it: HQ Lords of War are just there to normalise the slot to try to make people more readily accept superheavy units.
THIS !
One of the ways GW uses to push us to apocalypse-size our games. Just for the sake of the ca$h.
I don't agree. HQ Lords of War are a means of freeing up the HQ slot for expensive characters. Comparing Dante with a Wraithknight is not fair to Dante, or Ghazgull, or any other HQ character.
I feel like they should have just made 2 different opions, one for HQ LOW and one for the Big Stompy Units. Lord of War for HQ and I don't know, Heavy War Machines for everything else?
Kanluwen wrote: What boxed sets lately, that were not just repackages, have not come with all of the options?
Skitarii vanguard/rangers for one. You can have three special weapons in a squad, and it comes with only one of each.
If you really want to bring that up, then you need to bring it up for every single boxed set ever done that did not include enough for you to do multiples of a single option.
You can do one of each special weapon option and you get three special weapon options, ergo it comes with enough parts to fulfill the criteria.
No sane player would ever build a 10 man squad with 3 different special weapons. Ignoring synergy BETWEEN units, you definitely want synergy WITHIN units. It doesn't make sense to take different weapons with different ranges, strengths and AP values in one squad. Depending on the target, half of your weapons aren't being used effectively.
The recent Space Marine Devastators box is another example of a box that can't actually make all of the options a unit can take. It would need to come with 4 of each heavy weapon and it doesn't. If I want to have a unit with 4 Grav Cannons, I need to acquire extras either by scouring eBay/bits sites or by paying for an extra Devastators box and not using the overwhelming majority of the kit. It would be better if the kit just came with all of the options or if the rules mirrored what was in the kit.
No, absolutely not, gw have been heading down that route for a while, we have lost a lot of cool units, items, wargear etc because gw only wants to do rules for what's in the kit or what models they already have.
Thats what makes it dumb though. LoWs are limited heavily unless you go Unbound. If you are playing where LoW are allowed, why on earth would you bring a named HQ thats a LoW for some reason instead of a Wraithknight or Imperial Knight? Said named characters should get a buff because theyre in LoW, especially with the current game mentality of more than one CAD or Unbound eliminating the crowded HQ slot problem. Ghazzy is the only one that could easily fit the big nasty unit idea that is LoW, but his rules dont reflect it (even though the fluff does). The rest simply arent amazing enough compared to the multitude of options.
In the case of Wraithknights, you're forgetting that you do not even need to "go Unbound" to bring Wraithknights and another Lord of War.
Wraithknights are part of the Wraith Host formation or are able to be taken as a Wraith Construct in the Host detachment.
They could easily slap Farsight into LoW for this logic alone since technically Tau have a lot of HQs, just not many that are used commonly. Yes it frees up an HQ slot, but it removes a Stormsurge/Ta'unar/Tigershark option, which are infinitely the better choice. One could argue the Farsight Bomb would be the reason for him being LoW, but honestly i can easily see that being removed as a rule and added as a Formation anyway since it easily hits 1000pts or so.
It really does not, because like you just said...
"it could be added as a Formation", meaning that if you take the "Farsight Bomb Formation" you have taken it and not needed to give up a Lord of War slot since it likely is going to be a decurion styled Detachment where Farsight and Friends as a formation might take up a Command slot.
I would disagree, because what I've seen so far has been fairly underwhelming in my opinion. Unless the formations for some of these units are pretty stellar, they're very meh.
Talys wrote: It's not possible to put every weapon option in every kit for some kits, without having to pack those kits into a bigger box. You'd also end up with way too much wasted plastic.
What would you do with 5 extra missile launchers, heavy bolters, heavy plasma, etc. ? On a Sternguard box, are they supposed to pack like 60 weapons for 5 models?
A much better route would be special weapons frames for the most popular special weapons that people are short on. Let's be honest: It's combo meltas, grav guns and grav cannons we want. Nobody is looking for 3 more missile launchers and heavy bolters, nobody wants 4 more power swords, nobody wants a full set of storm bolters for their sternguard.
What you're really asking for is a full set of the cheapest, the most effective, and the most powerful weapons, the rest be damned. Which isn't going to even be possible, because those change much more frequently than the models do. For example, today infernus pistols suck. But make them cheap upgrades, and soddenly, they are the best thing ever.
Or make rules where all weapon options are actually viable and not just the exact wasted plastic you mention? Or how about making mixed weapon squads not degrade in usefulness in some way (split fire for heavy weapons would help a bit)? There are ways of making their one weapon of each type boxes less wasteful.
It's combo meltas, grav guns and grav cannons we want. Nobody is looking for 3 more missile launchers and heavy bolters, nobody wants 4 more power swords, nobody wants a full set of storm bolters for their sternguard.
Why shouldn't a full set of storm bolters be viable? Why do they include all the other options when people only want the three you mention? That's something GW can influence with their rules writing by making options that are game-wise not useless (in comparison to all the other options). Isn't including or creating useless options and rules the epitome of wasted plastic? They can create boxes that people want to buy (without needing two or three) or create rules that correspond with the boxes. One can't just excuse it with "there is no space on the sprue or they will need bigger boxes" when the problem is something GW made themselves and the solution is actually in their hands.
As it is now people buy more but don't like to do that once their bits box has swollen to a certain size and the rest gets sold for cheap on ebay or swapped for something else (both solutions kinda tarnish their premium brand reputation).
They could make one cheaper basic marine box with all the normal type legs, chest, heads, arms, bolters, and backpacks. Nothing of the fancy stuff like a chainsword/bolt pistol option or a bare head (people don't get all the options now so just really streamline it). Just have a heavy support upgrade box (same size as todays squad boxes but without all the basic parts) with all the special stuff you need (heavy and special weapons), a veteran box (with stuff for characters), and an assault box with jump packs and running legs and torso variants. Then just create another box or two for each chapter (one for special squads and more flavour bits and one that creates special characters when combine with some of the other boxes) and you save huge amounts of shelf-space.
As if creating a Blood Angles tactical squad when there is already a normal one isn't wasted plastic and shelf-space (with most of the stuff being the same (albeit with slight finer detail in the new box), excluding some BA specific iconography and whatever weapon selection they provide). With such a streamlined portfolio they could sell more of each box which in turn would make it possible to regularly upgrade their mould with finer detail versions instead of just adding another tactical box. And the average selling price per squad would probably rise (you need two boxes which might be individually cheaper but together could be priced higher than one squad box today because of all the bits).
Why is it that the biggest company in this industry can't manage to make a box universally useful in their own games without the need to buy extra boxes or people wishing for weapon sprues?
Tombard wrote: And i WANT to know if the new crisis suits have two of every weapon options available...
I'm going to guess no. The Centurion box (for $78) has a full set of weapons for each of 3 suits, but that was only 4 different weapon options- HB, Las, Grav, and drills. To fully load out a crisis team with any build, you are looking at 6x flamer, plasma, fusion, burstcannon, missile pods, plus 3 each of support systems like shield generators. And crisis suits are larger models than centurions.
Drone Squad and Shield Drone Upgrade kit are listed as "Sold Out/No Longer Available".
Probably because they are removing the old "single drone frame" bits, now that drones are part of the sprue of larger kits- Broadsides come with 2 drones that can be built as shield, missile, or gun drones. Pathfinders come with parts for shield and marker drones, plus their special ones. The new Fire Warriors will probably come with 2 drones that can be built as gun, marker, or the new ones, while the new Crisis suits will probably have like 2-6 drones.
vitae_drinker wrote: Yeah, like I said earlier. People need to forget the CAD. It's not the way the game is played anymore, really.
Not entirely true. Plenty of lists that have the option to use large formations regularly still opt for CAD. Most competitive minded Eldar and KDK players still use CAD despite having access to superformations. The ones you really see use the superformations on a regular basis are Necrons, Space Marines, and AdMech, the latter two of which is only because those formations offer an abundance of free points AND special rules. Not to mention that there are plenty of strong Space Marine builds still using CADs. Plus theres Daemons, CSM, Tyranids, AM, DE, Orks that all dont have access to superformations.
I don't see Riptides/Broadsides losing their 2+. Stormsurge has a 3+ because it's too big for the smaller plates of the former suits, Ghostkeel because 2+ is too heavy for a stealth model.
Or, at least, is how I see it. Riptides and Broadsides are ok with 2+, no reason to change that.
vitae_drinker wrote: I would disagree, because what I've seen so far has been fairly underwhelming in my opinion. Unless the formations for some of these units are pretty stellar, they're very meh.
Wow, I guess this is the post-Eldar metagame. If it isn't pants-destroyingly broken it's 'meh' or 'underwhelming'.
The ghostkeel is fantastic, with a 2+ save in the open almost all the time and the ability to almost entirely mitigate the shooting of an entire unit once per game. It's also the Tau's best CC unit now, and cheap enough to run in units.
The breacher FWs are niche, certainly, but I don't think anyone who takes them and uses them properly will be disappointed. They do require greater finesse than regular FWs, you can't just stand them up the back and shoot all game, but when the Tau book comes out I fully expect a tsunami of Space Marine players to complain that the breachers are too good. Honestly, wounding on 2s and ignoring 3+ armour, on a unit in an army that is famous for upgrading BS and ignoring cover? Yeah, the first time these hop out of a devilish and wipe an entire unit of (insert SM squad here), you're gonna start hearing complaints. The turret that can't be affected by anything is just icing on the cake, take a minimum unit of breachers, pop them in LOS-blocking cover and have the turret hanging out in front to fire with impunity, the opponent can't do anything except get really close, which is exactly what you want...
Finally, I know a lot of people have been ragging on the Stormsurge, but looked at objectively there's a lot to like. For my part, it's going to replace a couple of FW squads in my army who were only there to provide str 5 shooting. Now with the Surge putting out 4d6str 5 shots + the SMS, I no longer have to include FWs in my army and can go full-suit like I've always wanted. The Surge also offers you a pretty clear choice: either take the long range driver, stabilise in the first turn and put out an ungodly amount of firepower, or take the blastgun and run around midfield like a maniac, shooting D shots or str 10 ap 3 blasts. Hell, even charge some squads if you want to - with a 3+ save, 5+ FNP, and 8 wounds, you can take on nearly anything that isn't dedicated to melee and feel pretty confident you're going to take them out with stomps. For utter hilarity give it a shield generator and vectored retro-thrusters so you can hit and run out of combat, sure you're only doing it at init 2, but the concept of something as fat as the Surge hitting and running is too good to pass up for only 5pts.
Yeah they're almost certainly not going to allow us to take VRTs on Surges in the new book, but I'm taking these units as they exist -currently-. Who knows what kind of formation-related shenanigans we'll be able to do in the new book? They'll probably vastly overshadow the synergy we use now, if any of the previous 'Decurioned' books are anything to go by.
Yeah, after the last few release people hoped for a tau dex that would rage all the neck beards. But its actually turning out to be quite balanced looking so far. No OP units but a lot of things that are different and add another layer of play to the army.
I dont like breachers because theyre a terrible melee unit like all tau and are in permanent charge threat range. If you get that S6 AP3 shots on anything that isnt overwatch either your opponent flopped a charge or opted to fire with a unit that cant charge after firing their guns rather than just charging.
5" is ridiculously short. If it was 10" for that OR the breachers were at least average in melee it wouldnt be as bad. Especially since odds are nobody is going to be able to supporting fire for them.
And i have the same point of view on the Stormsurge you do. I regularly field a rate of fire type playstyle rather than high damage, so the gakload of damage this thing puts out outweighs its lack of insane single shots.
Far as i can tell the new tau dex is pretty balanced, and not in an Ork way either. Ork codex is pretty well balanced...among itself. Very few things in the ork codex are outshined completely by another unit in the codex, it all depends on the tactic. Problem is their best is vastly overshadowed by every other codex, which is why im kinda flustered with them. Back to my usual biker list or im lucky if i win mentality, which is why i stopped using them in the old dex to begin with (bikernobz instead of warbikers though). This is entirely Codex specific, not talking forgeworld. Forgeworld orks is an entirely different army imho Nothing in the Tau codex is all wraiths getting Str D weapons level of OP, but its still pretty damn strong.
Vineheart01 wrote: If you get that S6 AP3 shots on anything that isnt overwatch either your opponent flopped a charge or opted to fire with a unit that cant charge after firing their guns rather than just charging.
I'm still trying to figure out why people keep saying that the Ghostkeel is "the best assault unit we have."
When did this happen..? WS2/I2 is now an assault statline? So far as I can tell it has the same assault capabilities as a Riptide with less strength, toughness and no invuln save.
And, Dr. Deloreon, it is the "post-Eldar metagame". And because GW set the bar so high with them, and similarly Necrons, we have to be able to combat that. So far, with the leaks we're seeing, the tools we're given aren't quite up to the task. Yes, we got a solid new unit - Ghostkeel - but the other two, well.. they suck, to be frank. A WK will rip off a Stormsurge's head and down it's throat. It can't effectively engage the very units they were supposedly designed to combat. And the Breachers simply have no place. We already have more effective means of dealing with 3+ or better armor.
WS2 is not bad unless youre facing dedicated melee units that have WS5+. You still hit on 4s.
A lot of things are I2, and majority of weapons they have to worry about are I1
Theyre MCs, so theyre AP2 and cause Fear which is nothing to scoff at.
Squads of 3 with 3 attacks each base. Thats 12 S6 AP2 attacks on the charge coupled with 12 S3 AP- attacks that may not sound like much but numbers mean more than strength in a lot of cases.
The ghostkeel will beat the snot out of a lot of things. Majority of melee strength or AP is in I1 and rarely at S10 except in the form of a Dreadnaught or melee stars. They arent perfect, as WS2 is still low as many people point out. But theyre not terrible by any means. I fully intend to have a squad hunt marines and charge them if they survived my barrage of shots.
And all Orks are I2 or I1 because of Powerklaws, yet they are regarded as melee monsters. Init means little unless you are coupling it with a deadly weapon or are hitting something you have high odds of wiping before they strike somehow. Not many things hit really hard outside init1, and those things are easily avoided by a jetpack MC anyway.
Vineheart01 wrote: I dont like breachers because theyre a terrible melee unit like all tau and are in permanent charge threat range. If you get that S6 AP3 shots on anything that isnt overwatch either your opponent flopped a charge or opted to fire with a unit that cant charge after firing their guns rather than just charging.
You are never getting the S6 AP3 shots, even on Overwatch, unless your opponent is a complete idiot. No one is ever going to charge in that 5" range.
Vineheart01 wrote: I dont like breachers because theyre a terrible melee unit like all tau and are in permanent charge threat range. If you get that S6 AP3 shots on anything that isnt overwatch either your opponent flopped a charge or opted to fire with a unit that cant charge after firing their guns rather than just charging.
You are never getting the S6 AP3 shots, even on Overwatch, unless your opponent is a complete idiot. No one is ever going to charge in that 5" range.
That too.
Though i do know a lot of people that insist on getting within 6" to charge because every time they dont they flop the charge. Same goes for me lol. Only reason ive been doing it beyond 6" with my Orks is because 'Ere We Go! raises their average charge to ~9" which is pretty reliable.
Vineheart01 wrote: I dont like breachers because theyre a terrible melee unit like all tau and are in permanent charge threat range. If you get that S6 AP3 shots on anything that isnt overwatch either your opponent flopped a charge or opted to fire with a unit that cant charge after firing their guns rather than just charging.
You are never getting the S6 AP3 shots, even on Overwatch, unless your opponent is a complete idiot. No one is ever going to charge in that 5" range.
That too.
Though i do know a lot of people that insist on getting within 6" to charge because every time they dont they flop the charge. Same goes for me lol. Only reason ive been doing it beyond 6" with my Orks is because 'Ere We Go! raises their average charge to ~9" which is pretty reliable.
I insist on getting that close on units I KNOW can't wipe my unit out with overwatch. In the case of Jump Infantry, I am getting to reroll charge distance anyway. That is about the only tactically significant bonus of that <5" shot. It makes a person have to charge a bit further back than they normally would, and it doesn't do anything different for stuff with a 2+.
Vryce wrote: I'm still trying to figure out why people keep saying that the Ghostkeel is "the best assault unit we have."
When did this happen..? WS2/I2 is now an assault statline? So far as I can tell it has the same assault capabilities as a Riptide with less strength, toughness and no invuln save.
And, Dr. Deloreon, it is the "post-Eldar metagame". And because GW set the bar so high with them, and similarly Necrons, we have to be able to combat that. So far, with the leaks we're seeing, the tools we're given aren't quite up to the task. Yes, we got a solid new unit - Ghostkeel - but the other two, well.. they suck, to be frank. A WK will rip off a Stormsurge's head and down it's throat. It can't effectively engage the very units they were supposedly designed to combat. And the Breachers simply have no place. We already have more effective means of dealing with 3+ or better armor.
There are very easy answers to all of these questions.
For its points the Ghostkeel IS the best assault unit we have if you compare it to anything else in the codex. It's 50-90 points cheaper than a Riptide (depending on how much you kit the latter out) despite retaining the exact same close combat stats. It's not anything special compared to other codices but a Ghostkeel can still defend itself reasonably well in combat and take on smaller non-elite units just fine. As an FYI, WS2 and I2 don't matter when you still hit WS4 (the majority of units in the game are WS4 or less) on a 4+, your Toughness 5 still makes you pretty resistant to those units you want to be charging. It is also Strength 6 just like a Riptide.
The Ghostkeel is not "solid". It's being widely received as a very powerful unit. A unit that has a 2+ cover save in the open, good firepower (the Raker specifically), good mobility and a one-use-only form of Invisibility is extremely good for 130 base points. It's one of the most shooting-resistant units in the game when you consider that aside from Tau Ignores Cover is not that common - if Ignores Cover was as common as naysayers of the Ghostkeel speak of, why are Ravenwing such a top tier army?
Stormsurges do not "suck" as any major tournament player will tell you. The problem here is that you are comparing a fairly balanced unit (the Stormsurge) to a horrendously under-priced unit (the Wraithknight). Fair units like the Stormsurge should be the norm with Wraithknights as the aberrations, hence why comparing the two is silly as there's no GMC in the game aside from the Ta'unar that compares well to a Wraithknight. Once the community begins to realize that the Stormsurge is not actually designed to be a titan-killer (which is just marketing speak) and that it shouldn't be compared to a Wraithknight (which is a product of terrible balancing), they will realize that is a fine but not great or bad unit. It's just a good balanced unit that is arguably the first to fit that criteria for GMCs in the game.
Breachers are a different story altogether. They are entirely dependent on Devilfishes getting buffed or somehow gaining an alternate deployment method as otherwise the unit doesn't function without a good delivery system. If they can get free Devilfishes or Devilfishes drop in points significantly then they will see use as this solves their main problem. Even without Markerlights they tend to make their points back and more the moment they disembark to within 5" and shoot something which is not something you can say for most Troops choices in the game (the obvious exception being Windriders). As for how charging Breachers works, if you are charging them through cover without Fleet/Move Through Cover/some kind of re-roll you need to be 5" away to make it assuming average rolls. They aren't perfect but the fact that 10 of them will one-shot a T6 W5 3+ save monstrous creature for 90 points when firing at 5" without Markerlights or available cover is impressive, and like anything Tau they become godly strong with Markerlights. Again, they are dependent on Devilfishes and possibly on Markerlights as well. If Devilfishes get big buffs, they will be a fine unit, and if Devilfishes stay about the same, you probably won't see them much at all.
I think, foolishly, the designers are thinking that during overwatch, the controlling player can say "I am using the 5" profile" as they say "if there is a question..." bit in the rules.
This is just plain bad design - just say "during overwatch, the gun uses the 5" profile" which makes sense, considering a unit is trying to get close.
I agree, it is a similar story with the Stormsurge's Blastgun if you use it with Storm of Fire from an Ethereal, it kinda breaks down. Half range to get the extra shot plus a variable weapon profile based on range is kind of silly. You can never benefit from the half-range bonus for the 30" profile, you can do the "I choose to use 'X' profile" for the 20" profile, and you need to be within 5" for the 10" profile. Kinda silly.
Speaking of which, I failed a charge with an Imperial Knight from 4" away (not even joking) against a friend using two of these things in a squad earlier today. With Storm of Fire and the Stabilizing Anchors engaged, I had to suffer through twelve Destroyer AP1 shots.....even without any Markerlight hits my Knight still saw his predictable end from a Deathblow. Fun times (not indicative of anything, just a funny story). I still managed to win on objectives at the very least which was amusing, thankfully. The Stormsurges did the most damage of anything on the board which is what you would expect of a 720+ point unit (I think they had Shield Generators) for those wondering.
davethepak wrote: I think, foolishly, the designers are thinking that during overwatch, the controlling player can say "I am using the 5" profile" as they say "if there is a question..." bit in the rules.
This is just plain bad design - just say "during overwatch, the gun uses the 5" profile" which makes sense, considering a unit is trying to get close.
But when is the last time gw tried to be clear...
Overwatch is fired before the charge distance is determined. So I will move my guys to 6" out, let them roll Overwatch with the Str 5 AP5 version, then charge in. That is how the sequence of the game works. If a Tau player tries to pull the bs saying they are using the <5" profile, I have a metal Furioso and two socks.
Also, using new units with the old codex doesn't work. How do you even know what an Ethereal does now, for example?
Wait until we see the rules, then we can have a real discussion about how Tau play now. Otherwise all we have to go by is first impressions and guesswork. And my first impression is that the three new units are just meh.
I'm not even sure the whole "will get charged" argument is really that big of a downer on the Breachers. If they get unloaded within 5" of something that doesn't have any of; 2+ armor, Toughness 8, good invulnerable saves (4+ or better), they will usually kill what they shoot at regardless of Markerlight support.
Seeing as those barometers encompasses the vast majority of units in the game and 10 Breachers are only 90 points, they have their obvious merits, especially as they are a unit with Objective Secured in a CAD. If you really think about it, what other unit in the game can match 20 Strength 6 AP3 shots or otherwise similar firepower for 90 points? Yes, range and the price of a transport is an issue, but that's what we have the impending codex for.
I'm most definitely intrigued to see what the formations do for Tau, the last few codices with their major detachments/formations have provided a lot of free points (also stretching as far back as AdMech) so it might not be unreasonable to guess Tau might get the same thing regarding Devilfishes. It would make perfect sense as that kit doesn't sell well at all given it has to be ordered in for a lot of GW stores, and if they stay mostly the same a free Devilfish is quite a bit better than a free Razorback for example (better front armour, more firepower with the trade-off of Ballistic Skill 3, being a Skimmer Tank, double the transport capacity, etc).
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vitae_drinker wrote: Also, using new units with the old codex doesn't work. How do you even know what an Ethereal does now, for example?
Wait until we see the rules, then we can have a real discussion about how Tau play now. Otherwise all we have to go by is first impressions and guesswork. And my first impression is that the three new units are just meh.
Using the old codex as a framework to base our impressions of these units around is actually fine when you consider that the actual units/wargear themselves haven't been changing much at all except to get better in the transition from 6th Edition to 7th Edition, at least if you look at post-Necron codices. Generally the power level of the CAD army lists *increases*, while the formations are usually what make the codex stand out competitively. Even if you take the three new units on their own merits, the general consensus from tournament players is that the Ghostkeel is great and the Stormsurge is good or ok (still lots of conjecture on that one). Those two aren't as reliant on other things in the codex to base our early impressions around, whereas Breachers clearly will be codex-dependent; chuck Breachers into any army with cheap or good transports and you will probably see quite a few players use them. As it is, we don't know what a Devilfish/formations will be like in the new codex so we have to wait and see.
Seriously though, if you think a Ghostkeel is "meh" your standards are probably waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too high.
davethepak wrote: I think, foolishly, the designers are thinking that during overwatch, the controlling player can say "I am using the 5" profile" as they say "if there is a question..." bit in the rules.
This is just plain bad design - just say "during overwatch, the gun uses the 5" profile" which makes sense, considering a unit is trying to get close.
But when is the last time gw tried to be clear...
Overwatch is fired before the charge distance is determined. So I will move my guys to 6" out, let them roll Overwatch with the Str 5 AP5 version, then charge in. That is how the sequence of the game works. If a Tau player tries to pull the bs saying they are using the <5" profile, I have a metal Furioso and two socks.
Thats my point - I am guessing the designers were thinking "this unit is great, you can overatch with it, since in a charge the models get close!" where as the poorly designed rules (it should work that way) say check range.
Or they forgot to give the blasters the "wall of death" or whatever the special rule is for flamers that say range does not matter.
Of course, I also think that models that fail a charge should still move....the fact they just stand there...is dumb....but I diagress.
To those that say "breachers are only 90s points" doing the unload within 5"...they are not. They are 90 points + whatever the cost of the devil fish is. Plus marker lights (if you are counting on bs 3, you are relying on average luck too much - which is a bad tactic).
More slightly on topic - the stormsurge is hitting bit vendors on ebay, so folks who want to do some conversions can take a look.
davethepak wrote: I think, foolishly, the designers are thinking that during overwatch, the controlling player can say "I am using the 5" profile" as they say "if there is a question..." bit in the rules.
This is just plain bad design - just say "during overwatch, the gun uses the 5" profile" which makes sense, considering a unit is trying to get close.
But when is the last time gw tried to be clear...
Overwatch is fired before the charge distance is determined. So I will move my guys to 6" out, let them roll Overwatch with the Str 5 AP5 version, then charge in. That is how the sequence of the game works. If a Tau player tries to pull the bs saying they are using the <5" profile, I have a metal Furioso and two socks.
Thats my point - I am guessing the designers were thinking "this unit is great, you can overatch with it, since in a charge the models get close!" where as the poorly designed rules (it should work that way) say check range.
Or they forgot to give the blasters the "wall of death" or whatever the special rule is for flamers that say range does not matter.
Of course, I also think that models that fail a charge should still move....the fact they just stand there...is dumb....but I diagress.
To those that say "breachers are only 90s points" doing the unload within 5"...they are not. They are 90 points + whatever the cost of the devil fish is. Plus marker lights (if you are counting on bs 3, you are relying on average luck too much - which is a bad tactic).
More slightly on topic - the stormsurge is hitting bit vendors on ebay, so folks who want to do some conversions can take a look.
Chalk it up to another instance of the designers not knowing how the frickin' game works.
There's one small thing I would like to point out regarding Breachers.
Say you jump out within 5" of a 10-strong MEQ unit (in this example we will use Tactical Marines). Without Markerlights, you are killing 8-9 MEQs with your 10-strong Breacher unit. Now, you do the surprising move of launching an assault against said severely depleted unit. You are unlikely to lose any models to Overwatch, will lose an average of one Fire Warrior against a (non-Veteran) Sergeant with one extra Tactical Marine assuming no melee upgrades (common build), and will kill one of the Marines in return for a drawn combat.
You stay in combat in your opponents turn, meaning if your opponent doesn't charge anything in to the combat your Breacher team will end up "safely" killing a full 10-strong unit of Tactical Marines and lose only 1-2 models in return while being able to move and shoot another unit on their next turn, take an objective or jump back into their transport if it survives. That's just one benefit of having Assault weapons.
EDIT: Oops, this was meant for another thread. My mistake!
Caederes wrote: There's one small thing I would like to point out regarding Breachers.
Say you jump out within 5" of a 10-strong MEQ unit (in this example we will use Tactical Marines). Without Markerlights, you are killing 8-9 MEQs with your 10-strong Breacher unit. Now, you do the surprising move of launching an assault against said severely depleted unit. You are unlikely to lose any models to Overwatch, will lose an average of one Fire Warrior against a (non-Veteran) Sergeant with one extra Tactical Marine assuming no melee upgrades (common build), and will kill one of the Marines in return for a drawn combat.
You stay in combat in your opponents turn, meaning if your opponent doesn't charge anything in to the combat your Breacher team will end up "safely" killing a full 10-strong unit of Tactical Marines and lose only 1-2 models in return while being able to move and shoot another unit on their next turn, take an objective or jump back into their transport if it survives. That's just one benefit of having Assault weapons.
EDIT: Oops, this was meant for another thread. My mistake!
Couple things. 1. You can't assault the turn you disembark from your Devilfish as it is not an Assault Transport or Open-Topped. 2. Because of that, you are going to get shot up on your opponent's turn, even if it is only a handful of bolter shots or bolt pistol shots. 3. Depending on how many Marines are alive relative to the amount of Breachers you have left, your opponent might have used their movement phase to back their unit up out of the 5" range, and then subsequently charged you. 4. Congrats, you have just spent at least one turn shooting up a unit that costs fewer points than you. And really, who doesn't have their Tacticals in some form of a Transport these days? If those Tacticals are in a Rhino, you waste your whole shooting phase destroying the Rhino (AP3 can't explode it so the Marines inside just get dumped out), then THEY get to shoot you on THEIR terms since you can't charge them. So they will back up to keep you incapable of getting back to your sweet spot, both by use of Emergency Disembarkation, and their movement. And the amount of bolter shots plus special weapon shots they will be firing is sure to drive your numbers down. And if the Tacticals were in a Drop Pod instead, they probably blew your Devilfish up anyway, since they can drop right behind it and pepper it with all of their shooting at the Rear Armor.
Caederes wrote: There's one small thing I would like to point out regarding Breachers.
Say you jump out within 5" of a 10-strong MEQ unit (in this example we will use Tactical Marines). Without Markerlights, you are killing 8-9 MEQs with your 10-strong Breacher unit. Now, you do the surprising move of launching an assault against said severely depleted unit. You are unlikely to lose any models to Overwatch, will lose an average of one Fire Warrior against a (non-Veteran) Sergeant with one extra Tactical Marine assuming no melee upgrades (common build), and will kill one of the Marines in return for a drawn combat.
You stay in combat in your opponents turn, meaning if your opponent doesn't charge anything in to the combat your Breacher team will end up "safely" killing a full 10-strong unit of Tactical Marines and lose only 1-2 models in return while being able to move and shoot another unit on their next turn, take an objective or jump back into their transport if it survives. That's just one benefit of having Assault weapons.
EDIT: Oops, this was meant for another thread. My mistake!
Couple things. 1. You can't assault the turn you disembark from your Devilfish as it is not an Assault Transport or Open-Topped. 2. Because of that, you are going to get shot up on your opponent's turn, even if it is only a handful of bolter shots or bolt pistol shots. 3. Depending on how many Marines are alive relative to the amount of Breachers you have left, your opponent might have used their movement phase to back their unit up out of the 5" range, and then subsequently charged you. 4. Congrats, you have just spent at least one turn shooting up a unit that costs fewer points than you. And really, who doesn't have their Tacticals in some form of a Transport these days? If those Tacticals are in a Rhino, you waste your whole shooting phase destroying the Rhino (AP3 can't explode it so the Marines inside just get dumped out), then THEY get to shoot you on THEIR terms since you can't charge them. So they will back up to keep you incapable of getting back to your sweet spot, both by use of Emergency Disembarkation, and their movement. And the amount of bolter shots plus special weapon shots they will be firing is sure to drive your numbers down. And if the Tacticals were in a Drop Pod instead, they probably blew your Devilfish up anyway, since they can drop right behind it and pepper it with all of their shooting at the Rear Armor.
Yeah had a brain fart, forgot about not being able to charge after disembarking.
Functionally it is a 90 point unit next to a 140 point unit before transports are considered. This is why I - and others - have pointed out that it will be dependent on changes to Devilfishes. As it is, if Devilfishes get good then this unit is terrifying for a lot of armies.
Tau murder AV11, take three Broadsides as part of the FSC - two with Target Locks - and kill three Rhinos/Razorbacks a turn for 205 points. Getting the Breachers to shoot at the juicy targets inside is very easy for Tau.
Caederes wrote: There's one small thing I would like to point out regarding Breachers.
Say you jump out within 5" of a 10-strong MEQ unit (in this example we will use Tactical Marines). Without Markerlights, you are killing 8-9 MEQs with your 10-strong Breacher unit. Now, you do the surprising move of launching an assault against said severely depleted unit. You are unlikely to lose any models to Overwatch, will lose an average of one Fire Warrior against a (non-Veteran) Sergeant with one extra Tactical Marine assuming no melee upgrades (common build), and will kill one of the Marines in return for a drawn combat.
You stay in combat in your opponents turn, meaning if your opponent doesn't charge anything in to the combat your Breacher team will end up "safely" killing a full 10-strong unit of Tactical Marines and lose only 1-2 models in return while being able to move and shoot another unit on their next turn, take an objective or jump back into their transport if it survives. That's just one benefit of having Assault weapons.
EDIT: Oops, this was meant for another thread. My mistake!
Couple things. 1. You can't assault the turn you disembark from your Devilfish as it is not an Assault Transport or Open-Topped. 2. Because of that, you are going to get shot up on your opponent's turn, even if it is only a handful of bolter shots or bolt pistol shots. 3. Depending on how many Marines are alive relative to the amount of Breachers you have left, your opponent might have used their movement phase to back their unit up out of the 5" range, and then subsequently charged you. 4. Congrats, you have just spent at least one turn shooting up a unit that costs fewer points than you. And really, who doesn't have their Tacticals in some form of a Transport these days? If those Tacticals are in a Rhino, you waste your whole shooting phase destroying the Rhino (AP3 can't explode it so the Marines inside just get dumped out), then THEY get to shoot you on THEIR terms since you can't charge them. So they will back up to keep you incapable of getting back to your sweet spot, both by use of Emergency Disembarkation, and their movement. And the amount of bolter shots plus special weapon shots they will be firing is sure to drive your numbers down. And if the Tacticals were in a Drop Pod instead, they probably blew your Devilfish up anyway, since they can drop right behind it and pepper it with all of their shooting at the Rear Armor.
Yeah had a brain fart, forgot about not being able to charge after disembarking.
Functionally it is a 90 point unit next to a 140 point unit before transports are considered. This is why I - and others - have pointed out that it will be dependent on changes to Devilfishes.
Tau murder AV11, take three Broadsides as part of the FSC - two with Target Locks - and kill three Rhinos/Razorbacks a turn for 205 points. Getting the Breachers to shoot at the juicy targets inside is very easy for Tau.
While true, you just added another unit required to get your Breachers to do something useful.
Caederes wrote: There's one small thing I would like to point out regarding Breachers.
Say you jump out within 5" of a 10-strong MEQ unit (in this example we will use Tactical Marines). Without Markerlights, you are killing 8-9 MEQs with your 10-strong Breacher unit. Now, you do the surprising move of launching an assault against said severely depleted unit. You are unlikely to lose any models to Overwatch, will lose an average of one Fire Warrior against a (non-Veteran) Sergeant with one extra Tactical Marine assuming no melee upgrades (common build), and will kill one of the Marines in return for a drawn combat.
You stay in combat in your opponents turn, meaning if your opponent doesn't charge anything in to the combat your Breacher team will end up "safely" killing a full 10-strong unit of Tactical Marines and lose only 1-2 models in return while being able to move and shoot another unit on their next turn, take an objective or jump back into their transport if it survives. That's just one benefit of having Assault weapons.
EDIT: Oops, this was meant for another thread. My mistake!
Couple things. 1. You can't assault the turn you disembark from your Devilfish as it is not an Assault Transport or Open-Topped. 2. Because of that, you are going to get shot up on your opponent's turn, even if it is only a handful of bolter shots or bolt pistol shots. 3. Depending on how many Marines are alive relative to the amount of Breachers you have left, your opponent might have used their movement phase to back their unit up out of the 5" range, and then subsequently charged you. 4. Congrats, you have just spent at least one turn shooting up a unit that costs fewer points than you. And really, who doesn't have their Tacticals in some form of a Transport these days? If those Tacticals are in a Rhino, you waste your whole shooting phase destroying the Rhino (AP3 can't explode it so the Marines inside just get dumped out), then THEY get to shoot you on THEIR terms since you can't charge them. So they will back up to keep you incapable of getting back to your sweet spot, both by use of Emergency Disembarkation, and their movement. And the amount of bolter shots plus special weapon shots they will be firing is sure to drive your numbers down. And if the Tacticals were in a Drop Pod instead, they probably blew your Devilfish up anyway, since they can drop right behind it and pepper it with all of their shooting at the Rear Armor.
Yeah had a brain fart, forgot about not being able to charge after disembarking.
Functionally it is a 90 point unit next to a 140 point unit before transports are considered. This is why I - and others - have pointed out that it will be dependent on changes to Devilfishes.
Tau murder AV11, take three Broadsides as part of the FSC - two with Target Locks - and kill three Rhinos/Razorbacks a turn for 205 points. Getting the Breachers to shoot at the juicy targets inside is very easy for Tau.
While true, you just added another unit required to get your Breachers to do something useful.
Your Tactical Marines need a Drop Pod/Rhino/Razorback to get anywhere to be useful as Space Marines don't compete at long range with armies like Tau or Eldar. Your Tactical Marines also can't reliably pop transports themselves as on the "drop" you are limited to one combi-weapon and one special weapon, even in the example you listed - assuming good scatter and what-not - a Devilfish can still Jink and easily survive, meaning you need a harder-hitting unit to break the Breachers' transport. Very similar, no? Units don't exist in a vacuum, which is why Breachers will be fine if Devilfishes get buffed.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Chalk it up to another instance of the designers not knowing how the frickin' game works.
Alternatively, the point is that by forcing the enemy to stay outsde of 5" (7" if going through cover) the chance of making a successful charge has been reduced,
Unless Devilfish (or Breachers themselves) get Deep Strike, or they can get a Devilfish for free or cheap, then they are a sub par unit.
Also, don't forget, the new Tau force detachment will probably require 1+ Breachers Team, so be prepared to buy a new box to build them, regardless if you like them or not. Probably 2+ Strike Teams, 1+ Breachers, 1+ Pathfinders, a Cadre Fireblade or Ethereal (probably one of each similar to the battle demi-company to get free transports like for the Marines), and maybe 1+ Piranhas. Oh, and 1+ gun drone squadron. Suits and tanks will be formations.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Chalk it up to another instance of the designers not knowing how the frickin' game works.
Alternatively, the point is that by forcing the enemy to stay outsde of 5" (7" if going through cover) the chance of making a successful charge has been reduced,
I brought this up in a previous post. It is a tactically sound approach, since it is going to make chargers have to stay a bit back. But on 2d6, they are going to make their 6" charge 75% of the time(66% of the time for 7"). It gets even worse if they can reroll charge.
vitae_drinker wrote:Unless Devilfish (or Breachers themselves) get Deep Strike, or they can get a Devilfish for free or cheap, then they are a sub par unit.
Also, don't forget, the new Tau force detachment will probably require 1+ Breachers Team, so be prepared to buy a new box to build them, regardless if you like them or not. Probably 2+ Strike Teams, 1+ Breachers, 1+ Pathfinders, a Cadre Fireblade or Ethereal (probably one of each similar to the battle demi-company to get free transports like for the Marines), and maybe 1+ Piranhas. Oh, and 1+ gun drone squadron. Suits and tanks will be formations.
That's my guess.
Pretty much this. Though we already know Breachers can't deep strike. The same thing occurred with the Gladius Strike Force (though it does give some flexibility with the Assault and Devastator choices, but those choices aren't cheap money-wise). No matter what, GW wins.
Considering all of that stuff is quite cheap, I don't think too many Tau players will complain. Minimum unit sizes and current costs would put that at 280 minus the Drones which is super cheap compared to most "Core" formations.
As I've said from the start, the Breachers are inherently codex reliant. If my Space Marines could take a 90 point unit that puts out 20 BS3 S6 AP3 shots with Objective Secured in a cheap or free Drop Pod, you'd be damn sure I would take them in a heartbeat. Let's wait and see what the codex does for them before everyone screams over or under powered for once.
Undoubtedly yes. I don't put units in Drop Pods to do light damage and survive, I put units in Drop Pods to murder stuff and generate victory points which with the 11" threat range of 20 S6 AP3 shots on the drop and ObSec the Breachers are definitely good at.
My space marine tactical squads do have free drop pods (2 demi-companies) and they have staying power, flexibility, but their firepower does not bother my opponents.
S6 AP3 firepower WOULD bother them though, especially with markerlight support.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Chalk it up to another instance of the designers not knowing how the frickin' game works.
Alternatively, the point is that by forcing the enemy to stay outsde of 5" (7" if going through cover) the chance of making a successful charge has been reduced,
I brought this up in a previous post. It is a tactically sound approach, since it is going to make chargers have to stay a bit back. But on 2d6, they are going to make their 6" charge 75% of the time(66% of the time for 7"). It gets even worse if they can reroll charge.
34% of the time, the unit will be eliminated on the following turn as the breachers move up .5" and unload. It makes it into more of a gamble.
And if the devilfish will get cheaper, i might actually fielding mine for the first time ever... since the 1st Tau codex.
Because i never liked nor played the combination Devilfish/{Pathfinders or Devilfish/Firewarriors.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
And in regard to the charge gamble: do not forget supporting fire!
If you field 2 of these units or a few Tau units behind them, charging them means supporting fire from all units near them too.
A moving "line" of breachers supported by other Tau units or behind Kroot could be a very effective way to move across and clear a battlefield.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Chalk it up to another instance of the designers not knowing how the frickin' game works.
Alternatively, the point is that by forcing the enemy to stay outsde of 5" (7" if going through cover) the chance of making a successful charge has been reduced,
I brought this up in a previous post. It is a tactically sound approach, since it is going to make chargers have to stay a bit back. But on 2d6, they are going to make their 6" charge 75% of the time(66% of the time for 7"). It gets even worse if they can reroll charge.
34% of the time, the unit will be eliminated on the following turn as the breachers move up .5" and unload. It makes it into more of a gamble.
Only if they didn't get the charge off, which is unlikely. Otherwise, the Breachers are locked in combat(or dead). And given their low Leadership, they are probably going to flee when they take losses, making them subject to being deleted since they are Initiative 2, whereas most other units are I4. But a mass of Breachers is not going to be a fun thing to charge into, but even a Jump Pack Assault Squad is going to wipe one out in combat (since they are going to make a 6" charge like 92% of the time with their jump packs firing).
Caederes wrote: Tau murder AV11, take three Broadsides as part of the FSC - two with Target Locks - and kill three Rhinos/Razorbacks a turn for 205 points. Getting the Breachers to shoot at the juicy targets inside is very easy for Tau.
Hahaha good one, even with hunter you first need to hit, then not fail to pen, pass any saves they might have and roll a 4 or higher. HRR broadsides are easily the most disappointing unit in my army list. Stop with these silly arguments that have no statistical basis, it as silly as people saying 'ow breachers are gud cause markerlights when overwatch', forgetting that supposedly these breachers just came out of a devilfish after rushing halfway across the field and no pathfinders will be near them (let alone how easy it is to get out of 5" before charging). Schrodinger's tau don't exist.
Caederes wrote: Tau murder AV11, take three Broadsides as part of the FSC - two with Target Locks - and kill three Rhinos/Razorbacks a turn for 205 points. Getting the Breachers to shoot at the juicy targets inside is very easy for Tau.
Hahaha good one, even with hunter you first need to hit, then not fail to pen, pass any saves they might have and roll a 4 or higher. HRR broadsides are easily the most disappointing unit in my army list. Stop with these silly arguments that have no statistical basis, it as silly as people saying 'ow breachers are gud cause markerlights when overwatch', forgetting that supposedly these breachers just came out of a devilfish after rushing halfway across the field and no pathfinders will be near them (let alone how easy it is to get out of 5" before charging). Schrodinger's tau don't exist.
Umm, do you use Broadsides, ever? Do you know what High Yield Missile Pods are? Each individual Broadside puts out 4 S7 AP4 twin-linked shots at 36" and 4 S5 AP5 Ignores Cover twin-linked shots at 30". With Tank Hunters from the Firebase Support Cadre, you are killing a Rhino per individual Broadside if it doesn't have a cover save, no Markerlights required.
Caederes wrote: Tau murder AV11, take three Broadsides as part of the FSC - two with Target Locks - and kill three Rhinos/Razorbacks a turn for 205 points. Getting the Breachers to shoot at the juicy targets inside is very easy for Tau.
Hahaha good one, even with hunter you first need to hit, then not fail to pen, pass any saves they might have and roll a 4 or higher. HRR broadsides are easily the most disappointing unit in my army list. Stop with these silly arguments that have no statistical basis, it as silly as people saying 'ow breachers are gud cause markerlights when overwatch', forgetting that supposedly these breachers just came out of a devilfish after rushing halfway across the field and no pathfinders will be near them (let alone how easy it is to get out of 5" before charging). Schrodinger's tau don't exist.
Umm, do you use Broadsides, ever? Do you know what High Yield Missile Pods are? Each individual Broadside puts out 4 S7 AP4 twin-linked shots at 36" and 4 S5 AP5 Ignores Cover twin-linked shots at 30". With Tank Hunters from the Firebase Support Cadre, you are killing a Rhino per individual Broadside if it doesn't have a cover save, no Markerlights required.
Maybe you should learn to not jump to conclusions and look at, you know, the most freaking obvious use of a highly competitive unit. No-one uses Heavy Rail Rifles. High Yield Missile Pods exist.
Fair enough, I though, was specifically talking about HRR-sides, which are terribad indeed. And yes I do use broadsides, but as I have a few of the FW variants (bought when HRR was semi-good with s10 ). I really need to get some HYMP versions :(.
My favourite unit, since the first codex, are units of drones.
They can get just about anywhere anytime and take down any infantry.
They can be the unit behind breachers (giving supporting fire) easily.
Another unit that could be usefull in combination with breachers (not played in the current codex) are stealth teams. I suspect these get better for their points and then they also are a very good unit to follow breachers in a devilfish around and protect breachers and hit and run from behind them.
When I started, I had to buy individual metal power fists, metal special weapons, metal heavy weapons. Today people are complaining that you only get 12 heavy weapons in a box of 5 marines.
lord_blackfang wrote: When I started, I had to buy individual metal power fists, metal special weapons, metal heavy weapons. Today people are complaining that you only get 12 heavy weapons in a box of 5 marines.
I bet you had to walk uphill both ways to get to the game store also.
lord_blackfang wrote: When I started, I had to buy individual metal power fists, metal special weapons, metal heavy weapons. Today people are complaining that you only get 12 heavy weapons in a box of 5 marines.
I bet you had to walk uphill both ways to get to the game store also.
You know buying blisters was fun you got to choose now you end up with so much extra stuff sometimes you have no idea what to do with.
Now you have buy a 30 pound box often just so you can have an extra lascannon so yeah things aren't so good now
lord_blackfang wrote: When I started, I had to buy individual metal power fists, metal special weapons, metal heavy weapons. Today people are complaining that you only get 12 heavy weapons in a box of 5 marines.
Yeah, I was thinking that
These young gamers today - in our day, of course, we had it tough. When a new unit appeared in an army list, you had to convert it yourself from components taken from a dozen other models. And we were happy to do so!
Then again, we did also get three Rhinos for a tenner, and Land Raiders came two per box...
So one Drone thingy, two walls, one rail turret... then what's the third bunkery thing in the picture?
The bunkery thing is the drone thingy. You can actually see the drones in its underside.
Edit:
Upon a closer look, I would say that there are three versions of the bunkery thing: one for the drone dock, one for the wall, and one for the gun turret. You can see all three in the first leaked pic with the white Tau: the drone bunker is at the top, the wall bunker is in the middle and the gun bunker is at the bottom of the pic.
Zelnik wrote: Can I just bring up a point? Why do they keep making pulse pistol bits but never actually make rules for the stupid things?
Hmmm....pulse pistols have rules in the codex, of course I believe only the sniper drone marksmen are the only unit in the book that is equipped with them.
AtoMaki wrote: Upon a closer look, I would say that there are three versions of the bunkery thing: one for the drone dock, one for the wall, and one for the gun turret. You can see all three in the first leaked pic with the white Tau: the drone bunker is at the top, the wall bunker is in the middle and the gun bunker is at the bottom of the pic.
I guess that middle one is for the two walls then.
lord_blackfang wrote: When I started, I had to buy individual metal power fists, metal special weapons, metal heavy weapons. Today people are complaining that you only get 12 heavy weapons in a box of 5 marines.
I bet you had to walk uphill both ways to get to the game store also.
Breachers (which I think will be great against bike armies if Marker light rules stay the same and devilfish get better) fire at a unit with 3 models in the 5" range and the rest are in the 10" range. Does this mean if we fire and wound with the 5" profile we can only kill 3 models or will the AP3 wounds carry into the rest of the unit?
Breachers (which I think will be great against bike armies if Marker light rules stay the same and devilfish get better) fire at a unit with 3 models in the 5" range and the rest are in the 10" range. Does this mean if we fire and wound with the 5" profile we can only kill 3 models or will the AP3 wounds carry into the rest of the unit?
It would work like rapid firing - you would check to see what profile is used at the time you fire the guns. If all of your squad is within 5 inches, you use the str 6 ap3 profile. They would then have a kill radius up to the maximum range of the gun.
Yep I checked it just now, as long as all the models you are shooting at are inside the weapon's maximum range - 15" - then you kill them regardless of how many are specifically within 5". From the BRB;
"Note that, when determining if a model is out of range, always use the firing weapon's maximum range...."
As it doesn't specify "profile", we only have to worry about the weapon itself and its maximum range which is 15".
Wow, I see that being abused to feth, but this makes me see them in a bit better light. I was thinking they had to get super close (everyone within 5") to get their shots off, but if only a few people have to be, it makes them much better.
Even so, I still think the Devilfish needs to be buffed/they get some kind of special mobility from a formation for them to be truly viable. Nonetheless, it's a handy boost for a unit that I think will still be fairly decent regardless of the above.
Honestly the main thing the Devilfish needs is the Fast Vehicle unit type. It's two guns would actually be worth something then! Drop it to 60-70 points with the added Fast type and you then have a much more competitive transport.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Wow, I see that being abused to feth, but this makes me see them in a bit better light. I was thinking they had to get super close (everyone within 5") to get their shots off, but if only a few people have to be, it makes them much better.
Not really abused, it's just how it works. To be clear, the entire unit you're targetting doesn't have to be within 5 inches of your guys is what we're saying. The entire breacher unit DOES have to be within 5" of at least one model to fire. It would be like firing a unit of 5 marines - 4 are within 12", 1 is 14" away - you fire 9 shots, because one guy doesn't get the bonus for rapid fire because he's out.
In this case, say I disembark 5 breachers, I can get 3 within 5" and the last 2 are 6-8" away (maybe I'm trying to tail back to an objective). I fire 6 Str 6 Ap 3 shots (3 guys, 2 shots each) and 4 str 5 ap 5 shots (2 guys, 2 shots each).
It would literally work the same way Rapid Fire does - its on a model by model basis. However since its the same gun, they all fire simo even though different strength profiles so no fear of shooting your fellow breachers out of range.
Since this is a completely new rule and the only similar rule we have to compare it to is Rapid Fire, its going to have a loophole since its not stating it behaves like Rapid Fire and the BRB doesnt mention such a gun at all. You are going to make a lot of enemies if you try to have 1 model in 5" and fire a whole squad at S6 AP3
vitae_drinker wrote: Unless Devilfish (or Breachers themselves) get Deep Strike, or they can get a Devilfish for free or cheap, then they are a sub par unit.
Also, don't forget, the new Tau force detachment will probably require 1+ Breachers Team, so be prepared to buy a new box to build them, regardless if you like them or not. Probably 2+ Strike Teams, 1+ Breachers, 1+ Pathfinders, a Cadre Fireblade or Ethereal (probably one of each similar to the battle demi-company to get free transports like for the Marines), and maybe 1+ Piranhas. Oh, and 1+ gun drone squadron. Suits and tanks will be formations.
That's my guess.
That's probably a good guess and a gakky move on the part of GW. I've got three units of painted firewarriors but only 3 carbines in the bunch to signify my Shas'ui models and I'm not buying/building/painting more.
All my FWs have cabrines. I do a lot of city type maps (I always loved cityfight, and have a lot of city terrain), and my style of hard-hitting short ranged firepower fits them perfectly.
From the look of them, I suspect most folks wouldn't have an issue with just counting them as breachers. If they require breachers and pirahnas for the inevitable super voltron formation as I suspect, I'll be screwed.
I'd expect the Core formation for the codex to have at least one mandatory heavy-hitter, Eldar had their Support Platforms, Space Marines had Devastators/Centurion Devastators, ditto Dark Angels. I guess Necrons had optional Monoliths (lol). By those examples I'd expect either Broadsides or Hammerheads to be part of the Core formation, so that will help if that is the case.
Caederes wrote: I'd expect the Core formation for the codex to have at least one mandatory heavy-hitter, Eldar had their Support Platforms, Space Marines had Devastators/Centurion Devastators, ditto Dark Angels. I guess Necrons had optional Monoliths (lol). By those examples I'd expect either Broadsides or Hammerheads to be part of the Core formation, so that will help if that is the case.
While I do have plenty of broadsides and agree there will be an option in there for them, I doubt it'll help. If you're missing one lion, you can't form super voltron formation. It doesn't matter if you've doubled up on the blue arm if the yellow leg is missing.
It's possible broadsides would be part of their formation, but I'm actually hesitant to agree. I suspect suits are going to be seperare formations you can take. Basically they'll be the 1+ Auxiliary that you take in the double formation.
I'm betting sniper drone teams, instead, will be the heavy requirement.
vitae_drinker wrote: It's possible broadsides would be part of their formation, but I'm actually hesitant to agree. I suspect suits are going to be seperare formations you can take. Basically they'll be the 1+ Auxiliary that you take in the double formation.
I'm betting sniper drone teams, instead, will be the heavy requirement.
It'll probably be the core black lion formation of firewarriors and breachers with one low selling unit slapped on like the pirahna and broadsides will be an add on blue lion formation where as crisis suits will be a red lion add on and so on. I'm just curious if they'll continue the eldar/space marine/dark angel trend of broken and/or free rules given by the formations as long as you spend money instead of points... or if the Tau will be an ork level codex instead.
I would be very surprised if Sniper Drone Teams were the "heavy" requirement, seeing as how they're Finecast and not plastic.
Broadsides are a good bet, but so are basically anything. And heck they could make it so that Core formation has no Heavy Support option in it.
The Eldar Windrider Host Core Formation was HQ, Troops, and Fast Attack.
I could easily see a Fire Warrior oriented Core Formation that would be:
1x Cadre Fireblade
3-5 Fire Warrior Teams; any mix of Strike or Breachers
1x Pathfinder Team
1x Piranha Squadron
Formation bonus of free Drones on the Shas'ui in squads or free Seeker Missiles on the Piranha Squadron and Overwatching(not Support Firing) at their normal BS or something like that.
I suspect that we'll see an Auxiliary choice that is either a Broadside Team or a Riptide or possibly even a Stormsurge.
vitae_drinker wrote: It's possible broadsides would be part of their formation, but I'm actually hesitant to agree. I suspect suits are going to be seperare formations you can take. Basically they'll be the 1+ Auxiliary that you take in the double formation.
I'm betting sniper drone teams, instead, will be the heavy requirement.
It'll probably be the core black lion formation of firewarriors and breachers with one low selling unit slapped on like the pirahna and broadsides will be an add on blue lion formation where as crisis suits will be a red lion add on and so on. I'm just curious if they'll continue the eldar/space marine/dark angel trend of broken and/or free rules given by the formations as long as you spend money instead of points... or if the Tau will be an ork level codex instead.
What about the Stormsurge, Ghostkeel, or Breacher Team makes you think that Tau will be "an Ork level codex"(which BTW is a silly statement to make, as before the Necron and Eldar books hit Orks were shaping up pretty well)?
I bet the fsc will be a support formation. I didn't think about the sniper drones being finecast. Hmm. But I'll still stick with the sniper requirement as my guess.
I would have said that the Firebase Support Cadre would be a formation, but out of all the bundles that they have brought onto the webstore for the Tau?
It is one of three(Ghostkeel Wing, Stormsurge Mobile Assault Force, and Firebase Support Cadre) bundles that do not mention something similar to the following:
This awesome bundle gives you everything you need in order to field the Armoured Interdiction Cadre, as found in Codex: Tau Empire.
This bundle will give you everything you need in order to field the Heavy Retribution Cadre, as found in Codex: Tau Empire.
This bundle gives you everything you need in order to field the Optimised Stealth Cadre, as found in Codex: Tau Empire.
Kanluwen wrote: (which BTW is a silly statement to make, as before the Necron and Eldar books hit Orks were shaping up pretty well)?
That right there is a silly statement. It doesn't matter what it was "shaping up" to be but rather what it became relative to the releases before and after... you know.. the armies that it would face. Good intentions mean squat on the tabletop when you're facing down an army with a dozen free rules they didn't pay any points for and/or a dozen models that they didn't pay any points for. The Tau codex will be measured against the broken Eldar one, the trend setting Necrons, and the recent buy one get one free themed duo of Astartes releases.
Kanluwen wrote: (which BTW is a silly statement to make, as before the Necron and Eldar books hit Orks were shaping up pretty well)?
That right there is a silly statement. It doesn't matter what it was "shaping up" to be but rather what it became relative to the releases before and after... you know.. the armies that it would face. Good intentions mean squat on the tabletop when you're facing down an army with a dozen free rules they didn't pay any points for and/or a dozen models that they didn't pay any points for. The Tau codex will be measured against the broken Eldar one, the trend setting Necrons, and the recent buy one get one free duo of Astartes releases.
And out of those four books, the only one which is demonstrably broken is the Eldar one.
If you really wanted to make a point about it being a book that "lags behind", you could have just inserted any book that was published pre-Necrons. But no. You picked Orks, a book which was actually pretty good in terms of balancing.
Kanluwen wrote: I would have said that the Firebase Support Cadre would be a formation, but out of all the bundles that they have brought onto the webstore for the Tau?
It is one of three(Ghostkeel Wing, Stormsurge Mobile Assault Force, and Firebase Support Cadre) bundles that do not mention something similar to the following:
This awesome bundle gives you everything you need in order to field the Armoured Interdiction Cadre, as found in Codex: Tau Empire.
This bundle will give you everything you need in order to field the Heavy Retribution Cadre, as found in Codex: Tau Empire.
This bundle gives you everything you need in order to field the Optimised Stealth Cadre, as found in Codex: Tau Empire.
I'm guessing it's because they still sell the data-slate with its rules. Gotta get those dollars!
And out of those four books, the only one which is demonstrably broken is the Eldar one.
If you really wanted to make a point about it being a book that "lags behind", you could have just inserted any book that was published pre-Necrons. But no. You picked Orks, a book which was actually pretty good in terms of balancing.
It might have been fine internally but that only matters if orks only ever face orks. As for only the eldar being broken, you and I have vastly different views on what constitutes being broken. I, for instance, think being able to take 2300pts in a 2000pt game ON TOP OF a mess of special rules you didn't previously have is broken. YMMV. That, however, is the new standard along with Eldar D-weaponry and wraithknights.
Kanluwen wrote: I would have said that the Firebase Support Cadre would be a formation, but out of all the bundles that they have brought onto the webstore for the Tau?
It is one of three(Ghostkeel Wing, Stormsurge Mobile Assault Force, and Firebase Support Cadre) bundles that do not mention something similar to the following:
This awesome bundle gives you everything you need in order to field the Armoured Interdiction Cadre, as found in Codex: Tau Empire.
This bundle will give you everything you need in order to field the Heavy Retribution Cadre, as found in Codex: Tau Empire.
This bundle gives you everything you need in order to field the Optimised Stealth Cadre, as found in Codex: Tau Empire.
I'm guessing it's because they still sell the data-slate with its rules. Gotta get those dollars!
Then it would have said, "as found in the Dataslate".
On a more serious note this text confirms that the platform is floating and can actually move around on the battlefield - advancing to and withdrawing from the enemy - if need be.
Sad Panda mentioned additional "Decurions in campaign books" a few days ago in this thread when the future of *edit* Farside Enclave *edit* was discussed.
Kahnawake wrote: This terrain piece looks so easy to scratch build... At this price I doubt it will be selling well
Kahnawake
I'd bet the opposite. I'd say it's going to sell extremely well. Personally to me it's worth the cash at 25% off instead of the materials and time I'd have to invest to create something that still won't look nearly as good. I don't know many people in this hobby who could make something like that and it be the same level as the GW one without spending more than their time is worth doing it.
Warhams-77 wrote: On a more serious note this text confirms that the platform is floating and can actually move around on the battlefield - advancing to and withdrawing from the enemy - if need be.
Spoiler:
Might have missed it, but is that a new Ethereal at the center of the fortification? Don't recognize the figure.
Warhams-77 wrote: On a more serious note this text confirms that the platform is floating and can actually move around on the battlefield - advancing to and withdrawing from the enemy - if need be.
Spoiler:
Might have missed it, but is that a new Ethereal at the center of the fortification? Don't recognize the figure.
Yes, That is the one that comes with the Tau/DA campaign box set
Warhams-77 wrote: On a more serious note this text confirms that the platform is floating and can actually move around on the battlefield - advancing to and withdrawing from the enemy - if need be.
Spoiler:
Might have missed it, but is that a new Ethereal at the center of the fortification? Don't recognize the figure.
Warhams-77 wrote: On a more serious note this text confirms that the platform is floating and can actually move around on the battlefield - advancing to and withdrawing from the enemy - if need be.
Cheers for the share and confirmations! We officially have our first ever moving terrain.....good god I can't wait to see its rules.
@Kanluwen - That's true, personally I've been on the receiving end of a FSC too often so I'd be happy lol.
Dr. Delorean wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if the devilfish saw a price drop - maybe to 55-60pts?
in a world where the Venom and Raider cost 65 points? Not bloody likely. The lowest I can see the Devilfish is going is 80 points. If you want a price decrease, the upgrades and weapons are where you're most likely to see it. Outflank would open up a lot of options as well.
And out of those four books, the only one which is demonstrably broken is the Eldar one.
If you really wanted to make a point about it being a book that "lags behind", you could have just inserted any book that was published pre-Necrons. But no. You picked Orks, a book which was actually pretty good in terms of balancing.
It might have been fine internally but that only matters if orks only ever face orks. As for only the eldar being broken, you and I have vastly different views on what constitutes being broken. I, for instance, think being able to take 2300pts in a 2000pt game ON TOP OF a mess of special rules you didn't previously have is broken. YMMV. That, however, is the new standard along with Eldar D-weaponry and wraithknights.
Considering that the units leaked so far are better than ninety percent of the Ork codex and Tau have actual unit synergy, I don't think that Tau will be as bad a Orks. Orks had a better 4th edition codex than the one they have currently, while Tau can only get better.
Are we talking about War Convocation, or Eldar? War Convocation is OP as all get out when given drop pods, but is a lot more manageable if everything is footslogging. If you're complaining about the free upgrades and wargear, I invite you to check out their lists or relics and wargear; some of them aren't worth being free. Eldar have some ridiculously overpowered units (Scatbikers, Wraithknights, anything with a D-weapon) but other than that are actually quite balanced.
My mistake, Sad Panda posted this in response to the Farsight Enclave book not the FSC
Sad Panda - DakkaDakka
TheNewBlood wrote:
I'm afraid that this might be a sign that Farsight Enclaves might be gong the way of the Iyanden supplement: no longer valid. Maybe they'll do the opposite of the Eldar codex, and just change it to Codex: Tau!
Keep an eye out for the campaign books. The odd "Decurion" or two may appear there.
Dr. Delorean wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if the devilfish saw a price drop - maybe to 55-60pts?
in a world where the Venom and Raider cost 65 points? Not bloody likely. The lowest I can see the Devilfish is going is 80 points. If you want a price decrease, the upgrades and weapons are where you're most likely to see it. Outflank would open up a lot of options as well.
That's what it is already... I think 65-75 would be about right.
There is nothing wrong with its cost currently, people have no right to complain as much as they do about the devilfish. It has to movement blocking PITA drones with TL S5 pinning weapons, better AV then a Chimera and it's upgrades are crazy. The Fact it gets jink as a tank is also insane, skimmer or not.
Anyone expecting it to decrease can expect some tears because I fully expect its cost to remain the same if not increase while its upgrades get nerfed to high heaven. No way disruption pods remain the same.
It's more the fact that it pays quite a bit for guns it can rarely use. I personally don't think they are that bad but I understand why a lot of people dislike them as they got a heavy nerf in 6th Edition.
Warhams-77 wrote: On a more serious note this text confirms that the platform is floating and can actually move around on the battlefield - advancing to and withdrawing from the enemy - if need be.
I very much want the new floating building thing. I have no idea how practical it is or if I'd actually manage to use it, but it looks super sweet.
As for the breachers I'd like for them to be good, simply because it would promote a more mobile style of play than ye olde fire warrior gunline, which I like, but many people don't seem to enjoy playing against.
Vryce wrote: I'm still trying to figure out why people keep saying that the Ghostkeel is "the best assault unit we have."
When did this happen..? WS2/I2 is now an assault statline? So far as I can tell it has the same assault capabilities as a Riptide with less strength, toughness and no invuln save.
And, Dr. Deloreon, it is the "post-Eldar metagame". And because GW set the bar so high with them, and similarly Necrons, we have to be able to combat that. So far, with the leaks we're seeing, the tools we're given aren't quite up to the task. Yes, we got a solid new unit - Ghostkeel - but the other two, well.. they suck, to be frank. A WK will rip off a Stormsurge's head and down it's throat. It can't effectively engage the very units they were supposedly designed to combat. And the Breachers simply have no place. We already have more effective means of dealing with 3+ or better armor.
There are very easy answers to all of these questions.
For its points the Ghostkeel IS the best assault unit we have if you compare it to anything else in the codex. It's 50-90 points cheaper than a Riptide (depending on how much you kit the latter out) despite retaining the exact same close combat stats. It's not anything special compared to other codices but a Ghostkeel can still defend itself reasonably well in combat and take on smaller non-elite units just fine. As an FYI, WS2 and I2 don't matter when you still hit WS4 (the majority of units in the game are WS4 or less) on a 4+, your Toughness 5 still makes you pretty resistant to those units you want to be charging. It is also Strength 6 just like a Riptide.
The Ghostkeel is not "solid". It's being widely received as a very powerful unit. A unit that has a 2+ cover save in the open, good firepower (the Raker specifically), good mobility and a one-use-only form of Invisibility is extremely good for 130 base points. It's one of the most shooting-resistant units in the game when you consider that aside from Tau Ignores Cover is not that common - if Ignores Cover was as common as naysayers of the Ghostkeel speak of, why are Ravenwing such a top tier army?
Stormsurges do not "suck" as any major tournament player will tell you. The problem here is that you are comparing a fairly balanced unit (the Stormsurge) to a horrendously under-priced unit (the Wraithknight). Fair units like the Stormsurge should be the norm with Wraithknights as the aberrations, hence why comparing the two is silly as there's no GMC in the game aside from the Ta'unar that compares well to a Wraithknight. Once the community begins to realize that the Stormsurge is not actually designed to be a titan-killer (which is just marketing speak) and that it shouldn't be compared to a Wraithknight (which is a product of terrible balancing), they will realize that is a fine but not great or bad unit. It's just a good balanced unit that is arguably the first to fit that criteria for GMCs in the game.
Breachers are a different story altogether. They are entirely dependent on Devilfishes getting buffed or somehow gaining an alternate deployment method as otherwise the unit doesn't function without a good delivery system. If they can get free Devilfishes or Devilfishes drop in points significantly then they will see use as this solves their main problem. Even without Markerlights they tend to make their points back and more the moment they disembark to within 5" and shoot something which is not something you can say for most Troops choices in the game (the obvious exception being Windriders). As for how charging Breachers works, if you are charging them through cover without Fleet/Move Through Cover/some kind of re-roll you need to be 5" away to make it assuming average rolls. They aren't perfect but the fact that 10 of them will one-shot a T6 W5 3+ save monstrous creature for 90 points when firing at 5" without Markerlights or available cover is impressive, and like anything Tau they become godly strong with Markerlights. Again, they are dependent on Devilfishes and possibly on Markerlights as well. If Devilfishes get big buffs, they will be a fine unit, and if Devilfishes stay about the same, you probably won't see them much at all.
I think you mistook my speaking of the Ghostkeel as "solid" to mean that it's lackluster or somehow sub-par. It is not, like you, I actually see it as a very good unit with great utility and I will definitely add these to my force. My main concern is that people keep referring to it as "the best assault unit we have". When it's not. If so, you would see people charging their Riptides into assaults. The major difference, of course, being that Riptides cannot (currently, who knows what will happen when the codex drops) be taken in units. Sure, you can use them to finish off a diminished squad of Tac marines (essentially the 'gold standard' of general troops, due to the ubiquity in which they enjoy), but that same unit will just as easily be shot off the board on your next shooting phase anyway. I will, however, admit to using my Riptide once to assault two Ravenwing bikers in the hopes of denying teleport homers for his Deathwing. It was a gamble that thankfully paid off, but using it as a standard tactic is dangerous at best and game changing at worst. Saying these are the best assault unit we have access to, is like saying getting kicked in the shin is better than being kicked in the jimmies. Yes, one IS preferable to the other, but both still suck and neither is desirable.
Also, I see the argument that comparing 'x unit of LoW (non-character, ex. Logan, Mephy, Ghazzy)/Superheavy/GMC' to a WK is silly because WK is OP/undercosted/broken'. Well, sadly, the bar was set with the WK. It was the first GMC, it is the standard to which all others will be compared to, simply because you can only compare a LoW/GMC to another GMC/LoW. You can't simply hand-wave the comparison away because the WK is considered (rightly so) to be broken. It exists, and is fielded, and is the best. And the statement stands - the Stormsurge vs. a WK is a lost battle for the 'surge. For the role it marketed to, as an anti-superheavy, it will fail. Miserably. It may be balanced, especially within the Tau codex, but an internally balanced codex only matters if you are fighting an opponent of the same codex. It may be able to compete w/ IK's due to them being vehicles and suffering the problems that all vehicles do in 40k, but that failing resides in the vehicle rules, not because of any ground-breaking abilities the Stormsurge has.
Breachers will always suffer from the simple fact that if in the right situation and if the mandatory transport required to get them into that situation get a buff - they will be devastating. Anything outside of that sweet spot range, you are better off with standard Firewarriors. Their Firepower is constant at a better range band and are therefore more safe from assaults. I freely admit that there may be supporting units or rules in the new 'dex that can change how we view them currently, especially due to the high likelihood of Formation special rules, but even then, they will remain a highly specialized, situational unit that will rely on a host of variables to fall correctly into place for them to be truly effective.
The second number in the code refers to the role of the suit and has nothing to do with its weight class:
XVx1 – Designates a Batttlesuit of any mass class believed to only exist as a theoretical prototype or developmental model.
XVx2 – Designates a prototype Battlesuit of any mass class that has progressed to field trial testing.
XVx3 – Designates a Battlesuit of any mass class that has not entered mass production and has been assigned permanently to its pilot.
XVx4 – Designates a Battlesuit of any mass class approved for the command and control role.
XVx5 – Designates a Battlesuit of any mass class outfitted with Tau stealth technology.
XVx6 – Designates an air-space Battlesuit unit of any mass class.
XVx7 – Designates a Battlesuit of any mass class intended to facilitate infiltration.
XVx8 – Designates a fire support Battlesuit unit of any mass class.
XVx9 – Designates a Battlesuit of any mass class designed for frontline assaults.
I'm not picking on the OP of this, to be clear and not even on his focus of the Air-Space Suit. It's the source material provided above (which is "legitimate")
I used to love this bit of Background material and still do, but don't think it has much stock anymore. as an aside, The XVx9 nomenclature was actaully added on to fit the FW Hazard suits. Prior, The Studio Considered 8 the highest their numbering system would allow (The Tau operated sometimes in a Base8 system) anything above XV-88 would be allocated to a different category altogether (indicating it would require more than one person to pilot).
Though like much of the 40k universe in the past 5 years, the official Canon has changed wildly to suite the needs of marketing.
XV-9 now exist, Y'he used to mean "Destiny" or "Death"....Now it just means "Tyranids" (most like a trivial change in meaning, , but I still don't like it)
You know the old Tau saying, "the one constant in the universe is change. The wise ... put little stock in their favorite Background material retaining factual consitancy"
MoD_Legion wrote: Perhaps the other terrain did not sell as well as they'd want and they think that making it limited will make people rush to get it.
Every limited terrain they have sold sells out immediately if I am not mistaken. So I guess it is working. Jut sucks if you really wanted it and now you have to get gouged on eBay.
I've been following this thread for a good while now. I haven't been able to identify recent threads identifying when the new Tau Codex is coming out. This thread spins very quickly, so I could have missed it. Does anyone know? At my current state, the new model rules are being provided in WD, so I have nothing indicating an actual codex is imminent.
Can someone point me to the the obvious errors of my ways?
I've been following this thread for a good while now. I haven't been able to identify recent threads identifying when the new Tau Codex is coming out. This thread spins very quickly, so I could have missed it. Does anyone know? At my current state, the new model rules are being provided in WD, so I have nothing indicating an actual codex is imminent.
Can someone point me to the the obvious errors of my ways?
I've been following this thread for a good while now. I haven't been able to identify recent threads identifying when the new Tau Codex is coming out. This thread spins very quickly, so I could have missed it. Does anyone know? At my current state, the new model rules are being provided in WD, so I have nothing indicating an actual codex is imminent.
Can someone point me to the the obvious errors of my ways?
Some new releases, like the Optimised Stealth Cadre, refers to formations in the Tau Codex. there are no formations in the current Tau Codex, so there must be something new coming our way.
Bulldogging wrote: That sucks, why in the hell would a tabletop gaming company(or even a model company) limit important things like terrain and scenery.
If the rules are good you'll be able to pick it up on Ebay for about 500 bucks so don't worry.
Who says that the terrain itself is going to be "limited"?
As of right now, the only thing we know is that the boxed set containing all 3 is going to be limited.
When the "Wall of Martyrs" set first came out, they did a "While Stocks Last" boxed set that was called the "Imperial Defense Network" consisting of 3x Defense Lines, 2x Emplacements, and 1x Bunker
Here's an image of it for reference:
Spoiler:
They also did one called the "Tempestus Firebase", which was a pair of Firestorm Redoubts, a Vengeance Weapon Battery, and an Aquila Strongpoint:
Spoiler:
I fully expect the terrain to be available by itself once the bundle sells through.
They didn't, and honestly? The FSC probably is going to be gone.
Do you have any proof or substance to this claim, or are you just making stuff up?
Every other Tau bundle that is listed is mentioned as being a formation(Heavy Retribution Cadre, Optimized Stealth Cadre, and Armoured Interdiction Force) or matches the maximum availability of a single unit(Ghostkeel Wing and the Stormsurge Mobile Assault Force).
The Firebase Support Cadre explicitly does not make a mention of it being a formation, instead just having some fluff blurb about them getting targeting data from drones and obliterating targets in a single volley.
I've been following this thread for a good while now. I haven't been able to identify recent threads identifying when the new Tau Codex is coming out. This thread spins very quickly, so I could have missed it. Does anyone know? At my current state, the new model rules are being provided in WD, so I have nothing indicating an actual codex is imminent.
Can someone point me to the the obvious errors of my ways?
It seems to have been the pattern lately that the Codex seems to come out in the 3rd or 4th week of the release schedule. Since we already have price lists for what is supposed to go on preorder (Fire Warriors, Terrain, and box sets) this coming weekend, I would guess the weekend of the 24th is when the Codex will go up for preorder.
Bulldogging wrote: That sucks, why in the hell would a tabletop gaming company(or even a model company) limit important things like terrain and scenery.
If the rules are good you'll be able to pick it up on Ebay for about 500 bucks so don't worry.
Who says that the terrain itself is going to be "limited"?
As of right now, the only thing we know is that the boxed set containing all 3 is going to be limited.
When the "Wall of Martyrs" set first came out, they did a "While Stocks Last" boxed set that was called the "Imperial Defense Network" consisting of 3x Defense Lines, 2x Emplacements, and 1x Bunker
Here's an image of it for reference:
Spoiler:
They also did one called the "Tempestus Firebase", which was a pair of Firestorm Redoubts, a Vengeance Weapon Battery, and an Aquila Strongpoint:
Spoiler:
I fully expect the terrain to be available by itself once the bundle sells through..
Excellent observation, and I hope that's the case.
Signed,
Someone who wants a Void Shield Generator.
Eh. I'm still surprised we haven't seen a plastic Void Shield Generator kit--but hey, they didn't even provide a picture of the thing. I use an Imperial Sensor from FW.
...Speaking of sensors, the Tau Sensor Tower is back up on Forge World.
Vector Strike wrote: I don't see Riptides/Broadsides losing their 2+. Stormsurge has a 3+ because it's too big for the smaller plates of the former suits, Ghostkeel because 2+ is too heavy for a stealth model.
Or, at least, is how I see it. Riptides and Broadsides are ok with 2+, no reason to change that.
I dont see broadsides losing it as they are heavy. Riptides a possibility. 2+ implies heavy but riptides can JSJ.
It is pure speculation. Sometimes GW nerfs popular, powerful things when they release a new codex. Other times they buff them.
Excellent observation, and I hope that's the case.
Signed,
Someone who wants a Void Shield Generator.
Yeah, I agree Good catch, didn't think of that.
I will want this set anyhow, one way or the other, though, so I'll buy it as the big kit. Likely, they will split it up and sell it separately after like WoM. Over time, I've bought nearly 3 complete sets of WoM trench line (a little bit at a time, as I expanded the line).
I do hope it is broken up and sold as separate pieces, as I may want to add to the Tau line in pieces.
I've been following this thread for a good while now. I haven't been able to identify recent threads identifying when the new Tau Codex is coming out. This thread spins very quickly, so I could have missed it. Does anyone know? At my current state, the new model rules are being provided in WD, so I have nothing indicating an actual codex is imminent.
Can someone point me to the the obvious errors of my ways?
there will be a new codex, aswell as a painting guide, should be the week after the firewarriors^^
Not having a new codex is getting to be a real annoyance as I can't really start planning an army around these cool new units until I've seen what they changed with the old units D:
Also it looks like our Fire Warrior teams are being cut down to ten models per, but we get the new turret which is almost like a beefed up Fire Warrior for one point more, the Guardian Drone option which is awesome, and the ability to take a Targetlocked Markerlight on the squad leader, which is just awesome for sneaking in more Markerlights. I'm all for this I suppose, because while I like my 12 man squads, I'm fine giving up a little for these new toys D:
Current firewarriors can already take a markerlight + targetlock, i do it all the time. Problem is that one model, the shas'ui, suddenly becomes 34pts to do it, and thats if you didnt take anything else. And ML's are heavy so its only going to be useful if you didnt move.
I do it because i like the idea of cascading markerlight supports. Not to mention i despise pathfinders since theyre the obvious top priority, very squishy, and pricy. Only time i bulk up on markers is if i have a drone controller commander in a unit that has a bunch of drones (crisis suits).
Vryce wrote: I'm still trying to figure out why people keep saying that the Ghostkeel is "the best assault unit we have."
When did this happen..? WS2/I2 is now an assault statline? So far as I can tell it has the same assault capabilities as a Riptide with less strength, toughness and no invuln save.
And, Dr. Deloreon, it is the "post-Eldar metagame". And because GW set the bar so high with them, and similarly Necrons, we have to be able to combat that. So far, with the leaks we're seeing, the tools we're given aren't quite up to the task. Yes, we got a solid new unit - Ghostkeel - but the other two, well.. they suck, to be frank. A WK will rip off a Stormsurge's head and down it's throat. It can't effectively engage the very units they were supposedly designed to combat. And the Breachers simply have no place. We already have more effective means of dealing with 3+ or better armor.
There are very easy answers to all of these questions.
For its points the Ghostkeel IS the best assault unit we have if you compare it to anything else in the codex. It's 50-90 points cheaper than a Riptide (depending on how much you kit the latter out) despite retaining the exact same close combat stats. It's not anything special compared to other codices but a Ghostkeel can still defend itself reasonably well in combat and take on smaller non-elite units just fine. As an FYI, WS2 and I2 don't matter when you still hit WS4 (the majority of units in the game are WS4 or less) on a 4+, your Toughness 5 still makes you pretty resistant to those units you want to be charging. It is also Strength 6 just like a Riptide.
The Ghostkeel is not "solid". It's being widely received as a very powerful unit. A unit that has a 2+ cover save in the open, good firepower (the Raker specifically), good mobility and a one-use-only form of Invisibility is extremely good for 130 base points. It's one of the most shooting-resistant units in the game when you consider that aside from Tau Ignores Cover is not that common - if Ignores Cover was as common as naysayers of the Ghostkeel speak of, why are Ravenwing such a top tier army?
Stormsurges do not "suck" as any major tournament player will tell you. The problem here is that you are comparing a fairly balanced unit (the Stormsurge) to a horrendously under-priced unit (the Wraithknight). Fair units like the Stormsurge should be the norm with Wraithknights as the aberrations, hence why comparing the two is silly as there's no GMC in the game aside from the Ta'unar that compares well to a Wraithknight. Once the community begins to realize that the Stormsurge is not actually designed to be a titan-killer (which is just marketing speak) and that it shouldn't be compared to a Wraithknight (which is a product of terrible balancing), they will realize that is a fine but not great or bad unit. It's just a good balanced unit that is arguably the first to fit that criteria for GMCs in the game.
Breachers are a different story altogether. They are entirely dependent on Devilfishes getting buffed or somehow gaining an alternate deployment method as otherwise the unit doesn't function without a good delivery system. If they can get free Devilfishes or Devilfishes drop in points significantly then they will see use as this solves their main problem. Even without Markerlights they tend to make their points back and more the moment they disembark to within 5" and shoot something which is not something you can say for most Troops choices in the game (the obvious exception being Windriders). As for how charging Breachers works, if you are charging them through cover without Fleet/Move Through Cover/some kind of re-roll you need to be 5" away to make it assuming average rolls. They aren't perfect but the fact that 10 of them will one-shot a T6 W5 3+ save monstrous creature for 90 points when firing at 5" without Markerlights or available cover is impressive, and like anything Tau they become godly strong with Markerlights. Again, they are dependent on Devilfishes and possibly on Markerlights as well. If Devilfishes get big buffs, they will be a fine unit, and if Devilfishes stay about the same, you probably won't see them much at all.
I think you mistook my speaking of the Ghostkeel as "solid" to mean that it's lackluster or somehow sub-par. It is not, like you, I actually see it as a very good unit with great utility and I will definitely add these to my force. My main concern is that people keep referring to it as "the best assault unit we have". When it's not. If so, you would see people charging their Riptides into assaults. The major difference, of course, being that Riptides cannot (currently, who knows what will happen when the codex drops) be taken in units. Sure, you can use them to finish off a diminished squad of Tac marines (essentially the 'gold standard' of general troops, due to the ubiquity in which they enjoy), but that same unit will just as easily be shot off the board on your next shooting phase anyway. I will, however, admit to using my Riptide once to assault two Ravenwing bikers in the hopes of denying teleport homers for his Deathwing. It was a gamble that thankfully paid off, but using it as a standard tactic is dangerous at best and game changing at worst. Saying these are the best assault unit we have access to, is like saying getting kicked in the shin is better than being kicked in the jimmies. Yes, one IS preferable to the other, but both still suck and neither is desirable.
Also, I see the argument that comparing 'x unit of LoW (non-character, ex. Logan, Mephy, Ghazzy)/Superheavy/GMC' to a WK is silly because WK is OP/undercosted/broken'. Well, sadly, the bar was set with the WK. It was the first GMC, it is the standard to which all others will be compared to, simply because you can only compare a LoW/GMC to another GMC/LoW. You can't simply hand-wave the comparison away because the WK is considered (rightly so) to be broken. It exists, and is fielded, and is the best. And the statement stands - the Stormsurge vs. a WK is a lost battle for the 'surge. For the role it marketed to, as an anti-superheavy, it will fail. Miserably. It may be balanced, especially within the Tau codex, but an internally balanced codex only matters if you are fighting an opponent of the same codex. It may be able to compete w/ IK's due to them being vehicles and suffering the problems that all vehicles do in 40k, but that failing resides in the vehicle rules, not because of any ground-breaking abilities the Stormsurge has.
Breachers will always suffer from the simple fact that if in the right situation and if the mandatory transport required to get them into that situation get a buff - they will be devastating. Anything outside of that sweet spot range, you are better off with standard Firewarriors. Their Firepower is constant at a better range band and are therefore more safe from assaults. I freely admit that there may be supporting units or rules in the new 'dex that can change how we view them currently, especially due to the high likelihood of Formation special rules, but even then, they will remain a highly specialized, situational unit that will rely on a host of variables to fall correctly into place for them to be truly effective.
Solid almost always means "decent" in 40K speak so I'll chalk that up to a misunderstanding. It's a great unit as we both agree.
How is it not the best assault unit Tau have access to? For 130 points base you get 4 S6 attacks on the charge and 4 S3 attacks on the charge. Literally nothing else in the codex comes close to being that efficient in terms of melee damage output, and that's before you consider taking them in squads. I'll ask you the question; what is the best assault unit Tau have access to with regards to their points cost? Pointing this out is perfectly valid in a discussion of how good and adaptable it is in terms of units it can engage and what it can do at any stage of the game. People don't charge Riptides into assaults because they tend to operate at much longer ranges than Ghostkeels, are exactly as strong in combat and are much more expensive thus making any scenario involving an assault less than ideal, whereas for the Ghostkeel it's a fine little option given its super low cost. It's also probably a guarantee that Riptides will be usable in squads based off of the Ghostkeel, the Stormsurge and heck all of the Eldar and post-Eldar codices. Being able to charge and finish off a depleted unit that can capture objectives - particularly if it has Objective Secured - is never a bad thing, actually. Just because it's not always ideal doesn't mean it is an automatically useless tactic.
The Wraithknight was hardly "the first GMC". We've got plenty of examples that existed before the Wraithknight in 7th Edition; the Hierophant, Harridan, Barbed Hierodule, Scythed Hierodule, Gargantuan Squiggoth and the four Daemon Lords. What do all of them have in common (even the nigh unkillable Exalted Lord of Change)? They all compare horribly to the Wraithknight regardless of how good they actually are on their own merits because the Wraithknight is a horrendously under-priced unit. You can't make the claim that a Stormsurge sucks because it compares badly to a Wraithknight, whether you would take the former over the latter if you had the choice is irrelevant for all but top tier competitive play as it doesn't change the fact that the Stormsurge is at worst a decent unit when taken on its own merits. That's like saying a Skyray sucks because it isn't as good as a unit of Broadsides, even though on their own merits Skyrays are actually pretty darned useful. The only bar that was set with the Wraithknight was how to completely break any sense of balance with a single unit. Compare a Stormsurge to any other GMC and you will quickly realize that it is actually one of the few GMCs that is perfectly balanced for its points cost.
As for "the role it marketed to", when has that - or a units' fluff description - ever mattered when determining a units' competitive worth? By reading the Stormsurge's rules we can determine that it is not a titan-killer but a general artillery/suppression platform, a role in which it is better at than any other GMC. Again, you saying that it fails at killing titans is irrelevant as that's not what Tau players will use the unit for, and that's not what it was actually designed to do. It fulfills its actual in-game role well. I'll use Dark Reapers as an example; they are marketed as being able to take down "all but the most heavily protected foe", but in reality they are designed to kill Skimmers and Bikes - something they are frankly exceptional at. Similarly, a Tyrannofex is also marketed as a heavy-armour buster and described as having "weaponry (that) eclipses that of its foes' most powerful battle tanks" when this is blatantly untrue. The Tyrannofex is used as a line-breaker with a very powerful anti-infantry weapon, at least in its only competitive build. As for being internally balanced and that not mattering against other codices, I'm sorry to say but this is actually a really silly argument. Swooping Hawks are internally balanced against the rest of the Eldar codex, but plop them in another codex and they would be probable super-stars as they provide so much utility to armies that may otherwise lack it all the while being arguably the most versatile and generally useful Jump Infantry unit in the game. If the Tau codex is strong and the Stormsurge is balanced against the rest of the codex, it is by nature a good unit. Additionally, you seem to be implying that Imperial Knights are weak because of the vehicle rules, or at the very least you are saying they mustn't be that great if a Stormsurge compares well to them. You do realize that at least one Imperial Knight is taken in the vast majority of competitive Imperium of Man lists, right?
While the whole "sweet spot" argument does hold merit, it also doesn't consider the fact that if you have good tools to deliver said unit to its "sweet spot" then they will be a generally valuable unit. Additionally, I just want to make clear that Breachers are not good only against MEQs; assuming no cover and no Markerlights, they slaughter MEQs and anything less than that, they will - assuming average rolls - one-shot any Toughness 6 3+ save monstrous creature with 5 Wounds or less/any Toughness 7 3+ save monstrous creature with 3 Wounds or less/any Toughness 5 3+ save monstrous creature with 7 Wounds or less (which means the majority of monstrous creatures), plus they also destroy AV11 3 Hull Point vehicles - again, all without Markerlights. Their only actual "sweet spot" is having a good delivery system which, as I've pointed out on numerous occasions, I fully agree is what they will depend on to determine just how competitive they are. The fact is that you get ridiculous (albeit short-ranged) firepower for 90 points which, as myself and others have attested to, would make them absolutely amazing if you placed the unit into the Space Marine codex as-is due to their access to Drop Pods. If that is the case then surely it is clear that the unit does not suck and that it is instead reliant on getting a good means of delivery, something that is probably very likely in the new codex. They are not "specialized" as their effective damage output and preferred targets listed above should indicate. The idea is that they make their points back the moment they shoot at 5" at anything that lacks any of the three following attributes - 2+ save, AV13 (AV12 can be solved via Markerlight support), Toughness 8 or higher. Seeing as most units in the game don't have those and Tau natively (as of now) can apply Ignores Cover and greater accuracy to the Breachers via Markerlights, their range of effective targets is actually very wide.
At the very least you seem to have back-tracked from your statement that Stormsurges and Breachers "suck" so that is something.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As others have mentioned, the Drone Turret thing is actually really good. 11 points gets you a BS3 Missile Pod/Smart Missile System, you can set it up the moment the unit doesn't move and it can start shooting immediately while also adding to the units' Overwatch. There are lots of funny uses for it, especially as it can't be killed and can fire while keeping the unit out of line-of-sight which can be great for contributing some medium firepower while holding a hidden objective. The minimum unit size of five Fire Warriors plus the Drone Turret costs 56 points, has Objective Secured and a lot of nice uses without necessarily requiring any support. It's nothing ground-breaking but I really like the idea and execution behind it.
Vryce wrote: I'm still trying to figure out why people keep saying that the Ghostkeel is "the best assault unit we have."
When did this happen..? WS2/I2 is now an assault statline? So far as I can tell it has the same assault capabilities as a Riptide with less strength, toughness and no invuln save.
And, Dr. Deloreon, it is the "post-Eldar metagame". And because GW set the bar so high with them, and similarly Necrons, we have to be able to combat that. So far, with the leaks we're seeing, the tools we're given aren't quite up to the task. Yes, we got a solid new unit - Ghostkeel - but the other two, well.. they suck, to be frank. A WK will rip off a Stormsurge's head and down it's throat. It can't effectively engage the very units they were supposedly designed to combat. And the Breachers simply have no place. We already have more effective means of dealing with 3+ or better armor.
There are very easy answers to all of these questions.
For its points the Ghostkeel IS the best assault unit we have if you compare it to anything else in the codex. It's 50-90 points cheaper than a Riptide (depending on how much you kit the latter out) despite retaining the exact same close combat stats. It's not anything special compared to other codices but a Ghostkeel can still defend itself reasonably well in combat and take on smaller non-elite units just fine. As an FYI, WS2 and I2 don't matter when you still hit WS4 (the majority of units in the game are WS4 or less) on a 4+, your Toughness 5 still makes you pretty resistant to those units you want to be charging. It is also Strength 6 just like a Riptide.
The Ghostkeel is not "solid". It's being widely received as a very powerful unit. A unit that has a 2+ cover save in the open, good firepower (the Raker specifically), good mobility and a one-use-only form of Invisibility is extremely good for 130 base points. It's one of the most shooting-resistant units in the game when you consider that aside from Tau Ignores Cover is not that common - if Ignores Cover was as common as naysayers of the Ghostkeel speak of, why are Ravenwing such a top tier army?
Stormsurges do not "suck" as any major tournament player will tell you. The problem here is that you are comparing a fairly balanced unit (the Stormsurge) to a horrendously under-priced unit (the Wraithknight). Fair units like the Stormsurge should be the norm with Wraithknights as the aberrations, hence why comparing the two is silly as there's no GMC in the game aside from the Ta'unar that compares well to a Wraithknight. Once the community begins to realize that the Stormsurge is not actually designed to be a titan-killer (which is just marketing speak) and that it shouldn't be compared to a Wraithknight (which is a product of terrible balancing), they will realize that is a fine but not great or bad unit. It's just a good balanced unit that is arguably the first to fit that criteria for GMCs in the game.
Breachers are a different story altogether. They are entirely dependent on Devilfishes getting buffed or somehow gaining an alternate deployment method as otherwise the unit doesn't function without a good delivery system. If they can get free Devilfishes or Devilfishes drop in points significantly then they will see use as this solves their main problem. Even without Markerlights they tend to make their points back and more the moment they disembark to within 5" and shoot something which is not something you can say for most Troops choices in the game (the obvious exception being Windriders). As for how charging Breachers works, if you are charging them through cover without Fleet/Move Through Cover/some kind of re-roll you need to be 5" away to make it assuming average rolls. They aren't perfect but the fact that 10 of them will one-shot a T6 W5 3+ save monstrous creature for 90 points when firing at 5" without Markerlights or available cover is impressive, and like anything Tau they become godly strong with Markerlights. Again, they are dependent on Devilfishes and possibly on Markerlights as well. If Devilfishes get big buffs, they will be a fine unit, and if Devilfishes stay about the same, you probably won't see them much at all.
I think you mistook my speaking of the Ghostkeel as "solid" to mean that it's lackluster or somehow sub-par. It is not, like you, I actually see it as a very good unit with great utility and I will definitely add these to my force. My main concern is that people keep referring to it as "the best assault unit we have". When it's not. If so, you would see people charging their Riptides into assaults. The major difference, of course, being that Riptides cannot (currently, who knows what will happen when the codex drops) be taken in units. Sure, you can use them to finish off a diminished squad of Tac marines (essentially the 'gold standard' of general troops, due to the ubiquity in which they enjoy), but that same unit will just as easily be shot off the board on your next shooting phase anyway. I will, however, admit to using my Riptide once to assault two Ravenwing bikers in the hopes of denying teleport homers for his Deathwing. It was a gamble that thankfully paid off, but using it as a standard tactic is dangerous at best and game changing at worst. Saying these are the best assault unit we have access to, is like saying getting kicked in the shin is better than being kicked in the jimmies. Yes, one IS preferable to the other, but both still suck and neither is desirable.
Also, I see the argument that comparing 'x unit of LoW (non-character, ex. Logan, Mephy, Ghazzy)/Superheavy/GMC' to a WK is silly because WK is OP/undercosted/broken'. Well, sadly, the bar was set with the WK. It was the first GMC, it is the standard to which all others will be compared to, simply because you can only compare a LoW/GMC to another GMC/LoW. You can't simply hand-wave the comparison away because the WK is considered (rightly so) to be broken. It exists, and is fielded, and is the best. And the statement stands - the Stormsurge vs. a WK is a lost battle for the 'surge. For the role it marketed to, as an anti-superheavy, it will fail. Miserably. It may be balanced, especially within the Tau codex, but an internally balanced codex only matters if you are fighting an opponent of the same codex. It may be able to compete w/ IK's due to them being vehicles and suffering the problems that all vehicles do in 40k, but that failing resides in the vehicle rules, not because of any ground-breaking abilities the Stormsurge has.
Breachers will always suffer from the simple fact that if in the right situation and if the mandatory transport required to get them into that situation get a buff - they will be devastating. Anything outside of that sweet spot range, you are better off with standard Firewarriors. Their Firepower is constant at a better range band and are therefore more safe from assaults. I freely admit that there may be supporting units or rules in the new 'dex that can change how we view them currently, especially due to the high likelihood of Formation special rules, but even then, they will remain a highly specialized, situational unit that will rely on a host of variables to fall correctly into place for them to be truly effective.
Solid almost always means "decent" in 40K speak so I'll chalk that up to a misunderstanding. It's a great unit as we both agree.
How is it not the best assault unit Tau have access to? For 130 points base you get 4 S6 attacks on the charge and 4 S3 attacks on the charge. Literally nothing else in the codex comes close to being that efficient in terms of melee damage output, and that's before you consider taking them in squads. I'll ask you the question; what is the best assault unit Tau have access to with regards to their points cost? Pointing this out is perfectly valid in a discussion of how good and adaptable it is in terms of units it can engage and what it can do at any stage of the game. People don't charge Riptides into assaults because they tend to operate at much longer ranges than Ghostkeels, are exactly as strong in combat and are much more expensive thus making any scenario involving an assault less than ideal, whereas for the Ghostkeel it's a fine little option given its super low cost. It's also probably a guarantee that Riptides will be usable in squads based off of the Ghostkeel, the Stormsurge and heck all of the Eldar and post-Eldar codices. Being able to charge and finish off a depleted unit that can capture objectives - particularly if it has Objective Secured - is never a bad thing, actually. Just because it's not always ideal doesn't mean it is an automatically useless tactic.
The Wraithknight was hardly "the first GMC". We've got plenty of examples that existed before the Wraithknight in 7th Edition; the Hierophant, Harridan, Barbed Hierodule, Scythed Hierodule, Gargantuan Squiggoth and the four Daemon Lords. What do all of them have in common (even the nigh unkillable Exalted Lord of Change)? They all compare horribly to the Wraithknight regardless of how good they actually are on their own merits because the Wraithknight is a horrendously under-priced unit. You can't make the claim that a Stormsurge sucks because it compares badly to a Wraithknight, whether you would take the former over the latter if you had the choice is irrelevant for all but top tier competitive play as it doesn't change the fact that the Stormsurge is at worst a decent unit when taken on its own merits. That's like saying a Skyray sucks because it isn't as good as a unit of Broadsides, even though on their own merits Skyrays are actually pretty darned useful. The only bar that was set with the Wraithknight was how to completely break any sense of balance with a single unit. Compare a Stormsurge to any other GMC and you will quickly realize that it is actually one of the few GMCs that is perfectly balanced for its points cost.
As for "the role it marketed to", when has that - or a units' fluff description - ever mattered when determining a units' competitive worth? By reading the Stormsurge's rules we can determine that it is not a titan-killer but a general artillery/suppression platform, a role in which it is better at than any other GMC. Again, you saying that it fails at killing titans is irrelevant as that's not what Tau players will use the unit for, and that's not what it was actually designed to do. It fulfills its actual in-game role well. I'll use Dark Reapers as an example; they are marketed as being able to take down "all but the most heavily protected foe", but in reality they are designed to kill Skimmers and Bikes - something they are frankly exceptional at. Similarly, a Tyrannofex is also marketed as a heavy-armour buster and described as having "weaponry (that) eclipses that of its foes' most powerful battle tanks" when this is blatantly untrue. The Tyrannofex is used as a line-breaker with a very powerful anti-infantry weapon, at least in its only competitive build. As for being internally balanced and that not mattering against other codices, I'm sorry to say but this is actually a really silly argument. Swooping Hawks are internally balanced against the rest of the Eldar codex, but plop them in another codex and they would be probable super-stars as they provide so much utility to armies that may otherwise lack it all the while being arguably the most versatile and generally useful Jump Infantry unit in the game. If the Tau codex is strong and the Stormsurge is balanced against the rest of the codex, it is by nature a good unit. Additionally, you seem to be implying that Imperial Knights are weak because of the vehicle rules, or at the very least you are saying they mustn't be that great if a Stormsurge compares well to them. You do realize that at least one Imperial Knight is taken in the vast majority of competitive Imperium of Man lists, right?
While the whole "sweet spot" argument does hold merit, it also doesn't consider the fact that if you have good tools to deliver said unit to its "sweet spot" then they will be a generally valuable unit. Additionally, I just want to make clear that Breachers are not good only against MEQs; assuming no cover and no Markerlights, they slaughter MEQs and anything less than that, they will - assuming average rolls - one-shot any Toughness 6 3+ save monstrous creature with 5 Wounds or less/any Toughness 7 3+ save monstrous creature with 3 Wounds or less/any Toughness 5 3+ save monstrous creature with 7 Wounds or less (which means the majority of monstrous creatures), plus they also destroy AV11 3 Hull Point vehicles - again, all without Markerlights. Their only actual "sweet spot" is having a good delivery system which, as I've pointed out on numerous occasions, I fully agree is what they will depend on to determine just how competitive they are. The fact is that you get ridiculous (albeit short-ranged) firepower for 90 points which, as myself and others have attested to, would make them absolutely amazing if you placed the unit into the Space Marine codex as-is due to their access to Drop Pods. If that is the case then surely it is clear that the unit does not suck and that it is instead reliant on getting a good means of delivery, something that is probably very likely in the new codex. They are not "specialized" as their effective damage output and preferred targets listed above should indicate. The idea is that they make their points back the moment they shoot at 5" at anything that lacks any of the three following attributes - 2+ save, AV13 (AV12 can be solved via Markerlight support), Toughness 8 or higher. Seeing as most units in the game don't have those and Tau natively (as of now) can apply Ignores Cover and greater accuracy to the Breachers via Markerlights, their range of effective targets is actually very wide.
At the very least you seem to have back-tracked from your statement that Stormsurges and Breachers "suck" so that is something.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As others have mentioned, the Drone Turret thing is actually really good. 11 points gets you a BS3 Missile Pod/Smart Missile System, you can set it up the moment the unit doesn't move and it can start shooting immediately while also adding to the units' Overwatch. There are lots of funny uses for it, especially as it can't be killed and can fire while keeping the unit out of line-of-sight which can be great for contributing some medium firepower while holding a hidden objective. The minimum unit size of five Fire Warriors plus the Drone Turret costs 56 points, has Objective Secured and a lot of nice uses without necessarily requiring any support. It's nothing ground-breaking but I really like the idea and execution behind it.
I've been following this thread for a good while now. I haven't been able to identify recent threads identifying when the new Tau Codex is coming out. This thread spins very quickly, so I could have missed it. Does anyone know? At my current state, the new model rules are being provided in WD, so I have nothing indicating an actual codex is imminent.
Can someone point me to the the obvious errors of my ways?
IIRC one of the suits (ghostkeel) has a rule that doesn't exist (yet). Either it's a typo or we're getting new faction wide rules. The rest (new models, terrain, painting guide, scenario sets) hints at a new codex but isn't definitive.
Tinkrr wrote: and the ability to take a Targetlocked Markerlight on the squad leader, which is just awesome for sneaking in more Markerlights.
The current codex already allows that
Oh wow, I completely missed that D:
However, now we have a lot more reason to upgrade to the squad leader than before since there's the nifty Guardian Drone, and with the smaller squad size that little extra leadership can help.
I've been following this thread for a good while now. I haven't been able to identify recent threads identifying when the new Tau Codex is coming out. This thread spins very quickly, so I could have missed it. Does anyone know? At my current state, the new model rules are being provided in WD, so I have nothing indicating an actual codex is imminent.
Can someone point me to the the obvious errors of my ways?
IIRC one of the suits (ghostkeel) has a rule that doesn't exist (yet). Either it's a typo or we're getting new faction wide rules. The rest (new models, terrain, painting guide, scenario sets) hints at a new codex but isn't definitive.
Caederes wrote: We're pretty clearly getting a new codex, I have no idea why people are still discussing it like it is merely a possibility.
There was a mention on one of the new models, maybe it was FW model, that the (new) rules would be in the Tau Codex, and another mention on BOLS in a comment that digital codexes will have free updates to the new codex...
Bad pretre! I didn't say it. Derling asked for definitive "proof" and I listed what we actually had to go on. I know you deal in rumor mainly but you should know the difference between fact and fiction!
Bad pretre! I didn't say it. Derling asked for definitive "proof" and I listed what we actually had to go on. I know you deal in rumor mainly but you should know the difference between fact and fiction!
HAHA! Mobile Fortress. So Gundam. What next are we going to have a colony drop operation on some human world? I'm all for mobile fortress. Gotta wait for my tanuar now. This takes priority.
Bah those damned pictures are cropped in such a way that it is impossible to tell whether or not the strike team can take the 6++ drone, from the first picture though it would appear not (as the squad has a shield and gun drone). I want to knooooow :(.
MoD_Legion wrote: Bah those damned pictures are cropped in such a way that it is impossible to tell whether or not the strike team can take the 6++ drone, from the first picture though it would appear not (as the squad has a shield and gun drone). I want to knooooow :(.
I'm pretty sure the Guardian Drone is simply a base drone you can take, as it's not listed as specific wargear for the Breachers, has the same cost as any drone, and is then displayed with the three basic drones in the newest FW picture.
MoD_Legion wrote: Bah those damned pictures are cropped in such a way that it is impossible to tell whether or not the strike team can take the 6++ drone, from the first picture though it would appear not (as the squad has a shield and gun drone). I want to knooooow :(.
We've learned countless times not to take the pictures of the new minis in WD as any indication of correct model count of the squad, spacing, or the likes... These are publicity shots.
I'm not generally a 40K collector, but I'm liking what I'm seeing of these upcoming Tau releases. Can someone more versed in all things Tau tell me what the basic difference is between the new Fire Warrior set and the old one is?
MoD_Legion wrote: Bah those damned pictures are cropped in such a way that it is impossible to tell whether or not the strike team can take the 6++ drone, from the first picture though it would appear not (as the squad has a shield and gun drone). I want to knooooow :(.
I'm pretty sure the Guardian Drone is simply a base drone you can take, as it's not listed as specific wargear for the Breachers, has the same cost as any drone, and is then displayed with the three basic drones in the newest FW picture.
krazynadechukr wrote:
MoD_Legion wrote: Bah those damned pictures are cropped in such a way that it is impossible to tell whether or not the strike team can take the 6++ drone, from the first picture though it would appear not (as the squad has a shield and gun drone). I want to knooooow :(.
We've learned countless times not to take the pictures of the new minis in WD as any indication of correct model count of the squad, spacing, or the likes... These are publicity shots.
Good points, but I was thinking more about the possibility of them also have the field amplifier, I suppose a 6++ is better than nothing, 5++ on the other hand , that would be pretty sweet. Guess we'll have to wait a bit longer .
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vermonter wrote: I'm not generally a 40K collector, but I'm liking what I'm seeing of these upcoming Tau releases. Can someone more versed in all things Tau tell me what the basic difference is between the new Fire Warrior set and the old one is?
New set has extra heads for breachers, extra backpacks, sculpt redone, slightly different poses, new weapons, new options (i.e. the turret thingie), I think that about covers it.
MoD_Legion wrote: New set has extra heads for breachers, extra backpacks, sculpt redone, slightly different poses, new weapons, new options (i.e. the turret thingie), I think that about covers it.
Has there ever been a fortification that is faction restricted?
It'll be hilarious if it isn't faction specific.
Well to be fair, nearly every single Fortification up til this point has been Imperial themed and not restricted to IoM armies. If you play Xenos and you don't scratch build, you're spending lots of time filing off Imperial Aquilas.
MoD_Legion wrote: Bah those damned pictures are cropped in such a way that it is impossible to tell whether or not the strike team can take the 6++ drone, from the first picture though it would appear not (as the squad has a shield and gun drone). I want to knooooow :(.
We've learned countless times not to take the pictures of the new minis in WD as any indication of correct model count of the squad, spacing, or the likes... These are publicity shots.
We've never learned that from any of the most recent releases actually. Remember that people were insisting that Skitarii would be 5 models per box, because "no way they give you 10 to a box", and that they were just showcasing certain options?
I think the important thing to note about that squad picture is that even if it's an accurate squad it can only take two our of the four drone options, so just because it doesn't feature a Guardian or Gun Drone in the squad photo, doesn't mean they aren't options. They do however show all four drones in a later page, the one that we can't really read due to cropping.
So they are bringing us down to 10. I really have to wonder why. They've always been 12 (the midway between 'elite' troops like eldar and SMs, and 'normal' troops like gaurdsmen and orcs), why change it?
Yea fireblades are a little less effective since theyre unit specific. Ethereals really wont be different since you can just take an extra squad than youre used to bringing. It is only 2 shots for the fireblades thats loss but still, a hits a hit. Despite loving the model i never really liked the Fireblade because a firewarrior squad with a special character in it can get mopped up very quick even from afar. Thats why i started hiding my Ethereals inside a devilfish - they got good armor and a 3+ jink to save their butts and they can still do their job. Ive lost too many Ethereals and Fireblades in one turn before i could attempt to move them to another squad.
I guess me being lazy about filling out my 12man firewarrior squads colorcoding ended up being worth it lol. Now i wont have 2 models to recolor for a new squad.
I was hoping they'd up the Devilfish capacity to 14 so a fish could hold a full squad of warriors plus drones. Wasnt exactly how i was hoping they'd fix that issue, but i guess it did assuming the fish didnt get its capacity nerts too lol
MoD_Legion wrote: Bah those damned pictures are cropped in such a way that it is impossible to tell whether or not the strike team can take the 6++ drone, from the first picture though it would appear not (as the squad has a shield and gun drone). I want to knooooow :(.
We've learned countless times not to take the pictures of the new minis in WD as any indication of correct model count of the squad, spacing, or the likes... These are publicity shots.
We've never learned that from any of the most recent releases actually. Remember that people were insisting that Skitarii would be 5 models per box, because "no way they give you 10 to a box", and that they were just showcasing certain options?
when the 4 hammerhead bundle showed up on gw site, Longshot was in the picture. He doesn't come in the bundle. That's what I'm saying. Photos are misleading. Wait for the rules & descriptions. Don't jump to conclusions from a photo.
Ok, thats kinda cool. I thought it was pretty fething dumb that a unit with a crazy short gun... i.e constantly moving.... had access to a piece of wargear that makes them be stationary.
I'll definitely add the missile variant to my squads lol
Still got hopes for Ion Rifles and/or Rail Rifles for Firewarriors though...even though its looking like lost hope right now.
MoD_Legion wrote: Bah those damned pictures are cropped in such a way that it is impossible to tell whether or not the strike team can take the 6++ drone, from the first picture though it would appear not (as the squad has a shield and gun drone). I want to knooooow :(.
We've learned countless times not to take the pictures of the new minis in WD as any indication of correct model count of the squad, spacing, or the likes... These are publicity shots.
We've never learned that from any of the most recent releases actually. Remember that people were insisting that Skitarii would be 5 models per box, because "no way they give you 10 to a box", and that they were just showcasing certain options?
when the 4 hammerhead bundle showed up on gw site, Longshot was in the picture. He doesn't come in the bundle. That's what I'm saying. Photos are misleading. Wait for the rules & descriptions. Don't jump to conclusions from a photo.
Funny, I saw the picture when it first posted and there was no Longstrike.
BalerionFireStorm wrote: I need someone to translate the text about the Tidewall Rampart. that thing seems like its going to be amazing !
The text is pretty superficial and contains mostly fluff. It says that these fortifications float and can move around during battle. Acording to the detail page one of the kits is a command segment (it does look a bit like the ones in SW - Episode II when Yoda gets transported to the frontline on Geonosis, doesn't it?).
There is no hint what that means rule-wise but there are support systems and a control console (both GW's wording) at the insides of the walls of that segment. The text says the controls allow the Tau warriors to move the Tidewall.
Next to the two-page photo they mention that all the buildings in this fortification set soon to be released can contain more than 50 Firewarriors. It is impossible to find out from the text what this means rules-wise.
It also seems that you can move the fortification around with troops in it - no surprise, it would not make much sense otherwise. No information if it is an open-topped bunker and you will embark a squad onto a segment or if it works like an Aegis. The gun functions as an Anti-tank weapon to support the Fire Warriors according to the text (the segment is called Gunrig).
Edit: The third round segment is the Droneport (GW's name for it) - it is equipped with four drones. They can be detached from the building and sent to support the defenders or fight on other areas of the battlefield.
BalerionFireStorm wrote: I need someone to translate the text about the Tidewall Rampart. that thing seems like its going to be amazing !
The text is pretty superficial and contains mostly fluff. It says that these fortifications float and can move around during battle. Acording to the detail page one of the kits is a command segment (it does look a bit like the ones in SW - Episode II when Yoda gets transported to the frontline on Geonosis, doesn't it?).
There is no hint what that means rule-wise but there are support systems and a control console (both GW's wording) at the insides of the walls of that segment. The text says the controls allow the Tau warriors to move the Tidewall.
Next to the two-page photo they mention that all the buildings in this fortification set soon to be released can contain up to 50 Firewarriors. It is impossible to find out from the text what this means rules-wise.
It also seems that you can move the fortification around with troops in it - no surprise, it would not make much sense otherwise. No information if it is an open-topped bunker and you will embark a squad onto a segment or if it works like an Aegis. The gun functions as an Anti-tank weapon to support the Fire Warriors according to the text.
Edit: The third round segment is the drone port - it equipped with four drones. They can be detached from the building and attached to units.
You are welcome. It's late here so I struggle a bit with the text but I found another interesting part, the Shieldwalls (those with the blue clear parts) do REFLECT enemy shots. According to the text they are energy barriers and are quite dangerous to the enemy. No idea how GW is handling this effect rules-wise. But they usually do not mention something if it is not part of the game, do they?
The Drones for the Droneport can be built as either Gun, Shield or Marker Drones (this sounds like a multipart kit where you have all the options available for each one but this could be a mistake by the former translation to german).
MoD_Legion wrote: Bah those damned pictures are cropped in such a way that it is impossible to tell whether or not the strike team can take the 6++ drone, from the first picture though it would appear not (as the squad has a shield and gun drone). I want to knooooow :(.
We've learned countless times not to take the pictures of the new minis in WD as any indication of correct model count of the squad, spacing, or the likes... These are publicity shots.
We've never learned that from any of the most recent releases actually. Remember that people were insisting that Skitarii would be 5 models per box, because "no way they give you 10 to a box", and that they were just showcasing certain options?
when the 4 hammerhead bundle showed up on gw site, Longshot was in the picture. He doesn't come in the bundle. That's what I'm saying. Photos are misleading. Wait for the rules & descriptions. Don't jump to conclusions from a photo.
Funny, I saw the picture when it first posted and there was no Longstrike.
On the GW front page ( http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Warhammer-40-000 ) when it (the bundle of 4 hammerheads) first came out, the banner that said "Tau Best Sellers" (now it is the Riptide), and on the banner was pictured Longshot (character & the same kits in the bundle, and said "Armoured Interdiction Cadre" over the picture...When you click on it, it went here http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Armoured-Interdiction-Cadre . Anyways, my point was, and is, just because it is (or isn't) in the photo, does not indicate what is, or isn't, coming in a certain box or bundle. Someone made a comment about a WD leaked photo, didn't see drones, assumed they won't come with drones....
The buildings could just get a faction symbol on the datasheets (which are included in the box according to the magazine) and it would be clear these are not general fortifications.
They are four different building kits but that was mentioned already by others.
down it's throat. It can't effectively engage the very units they were supposedly designed to combat. And the Breachers simply have no place. We already have more effective means of dealing with 3+ or better armor.
). I really need to get some 
