Warhams-77 wrote: Wasnt 12 mostly because of the old sprue designs? Like Khorne Berserkers and other kits from that GW era?
Edit: They did the same with Eldar Guardians and Jetbikes e.g.
And because Tau use base-8 numbers. A 12-man Tau unit is the equivalent of a 15-man human unit, and a 4-man Tau unit is the equivalent of a 5-man human unit.
Amazing that GW is actually making non-Imperial terrain. Must have noticed sales of these 3rd party guys and decided they're tired of missing out on sales.
Wolfblade wrote: Hm, not impressed with breachers. Do we have rules for the field amp relay though? Hoping it increases the range on those blasters or something.
It means that hey get a 5++ from the shield projector drone as apposed to a 6++
Has there ever been a fortification that is faction restricted?
It'll be hilarious if it isn't faction specific.
Well to be fair, nearly every single Fortification up til this point has been Imperial themed and not restricted to IoM armies. If you play Xenos and you don't scratch build, you're spending lots of time filing off Imperial Aquilas.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's a combi kit with firewarriors and breachers
thers another pic of the FW on a black background one or two pages back
Warhams-77 wrote: Wasnt 12 mostly because of the old sprue designs? Like Khorne Berserkers and other kits from that GW era?
Edit: They did the same with Eldar Guardians and Jetbikes e.g.
And because Tau use base-8 numbers. A 12-man Tau unit is the equivalent of a 15-man human unit, and a 4-man Tau unit is the equivalent of a 5-man human unit.
Well they have 'XV-9' and 'XV-10' suits nowadays so is that really true anymore?
Warhams-77 wrote: Wasnt 12 mostly because of the old sprue designs? Like Khorne Berserkers and other kits from that GW era?
Edit: They did the same with Eldar Guardians and Jetbikes e.g.
And because Tau use base-8 numbers. A 12-man Tau unit is the equivalent of a 15-man human unit, and a 4-man Tau unit is the equivalent of a 5-man human unit.
Well they have 'XV-9' and 'XV-10' suits nowadays so is that really true anymore?
They still have the numbers 9 and 10, they just would write them 11 (pronounced one-one) and 12 (one-two).That was sort of a joke around the XV9s, they were taken up to "11".
Warhams-77 wrote: Wasnt 12 mostly because of the old sprue designs? Like Khorne Berserkers and other kits from that GW era?
Edit: They did the same with Eldar Guardians and Jetbikes e.g.
And because Tau use base-8 numbers. A 12-man Tau unit is the equivalent of a 15-man human unit, and a 4-man Tau unit is the equivalent of a 5-man human unit.
Well they have 'XV-9' and 'XV-10' suits nowadays so is that really true anymore?
Just a reminder about the Tau naming, all of them are Imperium designations. XV is just what Her’ex’vre sounds like in Low Gothic and how it was transcribed. Her’ex’vre actually means "Mantel of the Hero", though Xenos Inquisitors would rather not call Tau Battlesuits hero mantels. All the ocean style names and number designation are human invented, which is why the numbering goes to 10.
Why can't we have a codex by Tau for Tau... I mean the Gue'la can do some work and publish some pamphlets for the IOM to read up on, so that we can have more fluffy things D:
As a new player only 2 weeks in I bought a squad of pathfinders and started painting them. Eagerly awaiting the codex so I can find out what I need and should put in my army.
Those firewarriors look awesome and the missile drone is cool col as hell. Cannot wait to field them. Is there a chance anyone knows the new weapons.
They need to come sooner! Cant really play a game with 1 squad of pathfinders, darkstrider and a devilfish :(
Spencley wrote: As a new player only 2 weeks in I bought a squad of pathfinders and started painting them. Eagerly awaiting the codex so I can find out what I need and should put in my army.
Those firewarriors look awesome and the missile drone is cool col as hell. Cannot wait to field them. Is there a chance anyone knows the new weapons.
They need to come sooner! Cant really play a game with 1 squad of pathfinders, darkstrider and a devilfish :(
The new Fire Warriors look really nice, they added a lot of detail and fixed the sculpts hopefully. The stock of the guns now has ribbing and the backpack looks like it has things attached to it as opposed to being one solid piece, which is nice.
As for the new troop choice we have, along with the new drone, and missile turret, you can find it here: http://imgur.com/a/yxtaw
The rules for the Ghostkeel and Stormsurge have been spoiled too. Though really until we know how other things have changed, it's still too hard to make a decision. Really, I know your pain, as I just came back to the game myself and feel a horrible apathy when it comes to crafting my list because I simply don't know what to do with it. I want a Skyray, as the current stats are awesome, but what if it gets changed?
Wolfblade wrote: Hm, not impressed with breachers. Do we have rules for the field amp relay though? Hoping it increases the range on those blasters or something.
It means that hey get a 5++ from the shield projector drone as apposed to a 6++
Damn. Honestly, I can't see myself picking up any then, way too short range, especially if pulse rifles remain the same (which I can't imagine them being changed).
Warhams-77 wrote: Wasnt 12 mostly because of the old sprue designs? Like Khorne Berserkers and other kits from that GW era?
Edit: They did the same with Eldar Guardians and Jetbikes e.g.
And because Tau use base-8 numbers. A 12-man Tau unit is the equivalent of a 15-man human unit, and a 4-man Tau unit is the equivalent of a 5-man human unit.
Well they have 'XV-9' and 'XV-10' suits nowadays so is that really true anymore?
Just a reminder about the Tau naming, all of them are Imperium designations. XV is just what Her’ex’vre sounds like in Low Gothic and how it was transcribed. Her’ex’vre actually means "Mantel of the Hero", though Xenos Inquisitors would rather not call Tau Battlesuits hero mantels. All the ocean style names and number designation are human invented, which is why the numbering goes to 10.
So XV is Her'ex'Vre, Mantle of the Hero. I remember that. What do KV, KX, TX, and TY translate to, both in Tau language and Low Gothic (english)?
Tinkrr wrote: Why can't we have a codex by Tau for Tau... I mean the Gue'la can do some work and publish some pamphlets for the IOM to read up on, so that we can have more fluffy things D:
Because 40k, increasingly, is written from the perspective of the IoM.
Spencley wrote: As a new player only 2 weeks in I bought a squad of pathfinders and started painting them. Eagerly awaiting the codex so I can find out what I need and should put in my army.
Those firewarriors look awesome and the missile drone is cool col as hell. Cannot wait to field them. Is there a chance anyone knows the new weapons.
They need to come sooner! Cant really play a game with 1 squad of pathfinders, darkstrider and a devilfish :(
I would be really surprised if you don't get access to a Formation that is two or three squads of Pathfinders with a 0-1 choice of Darkstrider.
As long as they are not mandatory part of the "decurion" base.
I hate them. I'll never bring myself to play pathfinders. drones and tetras all the way for me!
Wolfblade wrote: Hm, not impressed with breachers. Do we have rules for the field amp relay though? Hoping it increases the range on those blasters or something.
It means that hey get a 5++ from the shield projector drone as apposed to a 6++
Actually, that's the drone's rules.
We know not if it also does something else on its own, for example it might bring a 6++ to begin with (making breachers a tad more appealing)
Just a reminder about the Tau naming, all of them are Imperium designations. XV is just what Her’ex’vre sounds like in Low Gothic and how it was transcribed. Her’ex’vre actually means "Mantel of the Hero", though Xenos Inquisitors would rather not call Tau Battlesuits hero mantels. All the ocean style names and number designation are human invented, which is why the numbering goes to 10.
All true, and the same story who worked in both the GW design studio and eventually at Forgeworld. In all honesty, to me it has always seemed like this part of the Tau background is very loosely delineated between how How the Tau empire designates their units and how the imperium delineates them. Though I would not be at all surpised to see GW or FW background material where the Tau refer to their wargear using the Imperium nomenclature. It gets tricksey to refer to an alien race using only the language of ONE of their opposing races.
not saying that's good or bad. a little mystery/ambiguity is healthy to let the audienece fill in the blanks, but it leads to difficulty in creating consistent background material.
Tinkrr wrote: Why can't we have a codex by Tau for Tau... I mean the Gue'la can do some work and publish some pamphlets for the IOM to read up on, so that we can have more fluffy things D:
.
Agreed! That's why when I play my German SS force in both FOM & also my other SS force in Bolt Action, I only use the German Language publications, and speak German while gaming!
Field amp doesnt have its own ruleset. Its only mentioned with the Guardian Drone as conferring a 5++ instead of a 6++ to the unit. One would imagine it would give the drone a 4++ but it doesnt say that. Which is why we are speculating its a standard drone now anybody can get, but only the Breachers (as of right now anyway) can get better than a 6++ from the drone.
Spoiler:
Tell ya one thing though, if anybody can take this drone im sneaking one into every single unit. 6++ for 12pts for the whole squad is dope. And considering Precision Shots are much less rare these days, getting the droned sniped is unlikely. Unlike the Ork's 6++ FNP for 5pts EACH, 12pts for a unit wide 6++ invul is verrrry worth it.
So does anyone have a firm guess on what the "Fire Team" rule that is listed on the Ghostkeel profile probably does? It seems like an interesting ability when combined with the Ghostkeel / Stormsurge bundle/formation listed on GW:
This bundle will give you everything you need in order to field the Heavy Retribution Cadre, as found in Codex: Tau Empire. Three Ghostkeel Battlesuits lead the charge, spotting and advising, while two Stormsurges absorb their data, take aim, and annihilate. Five crushing examples of Tau tech!
I was thinking it might have to do with Drones and squads having mixed unit types but the Breachers lack the rule. We know more than one unit has the rule as otherwise it would have been detailed in the Ghostkeel profile. Honestly it could be anything, even something like allowing independent characters to join units of monstrous creatures. I'm guessing it's either exclusive to Battlesuits (most likely) or exclusive to monstrous creatures in the codex.
Considering Ghostkeels are a close/semi-close range unit and are fairly good at melee, i expected the Fire Team to be melee orientated and Breachers were going to also include it and have it be limited to the two of them since theyre the most likely to see melee combat.
I was so wrong lol. Breachers are void of that rule.
Somehow i doubt its a suit-specific rule, they could easily just tack it into the Suit profile then like Multitrackers or BSFilters. But considering Breachers lack it and theyre even MORE likely to see melee than Ghostkeels, i have no idea what the heck that rule could mean or who else might have it.
Only other guess i have, which is one hell of a guess, is maybe it has to deal with the Melta shots like max-range Melta bonus or something. Total speculation and im probably wrong though.
Apparently someone is saying the Tidewall can reflect shots back at its opponent from reading the description. Hahah.
If that's true that is far more troll worthy than the Ta'unar. Is the Ta'unar better? Yes, but imagine the looks on their faces as their own shots are killing them.
Honestly the more troll-worthy part by far is that the damn thing moves. You can cover a lot of space with its sheer bulk and, assuming it is a defence line of some kind, solve two major Tau-specific problems in one hit; dying too easily and not being able to safely take objectives. Not to mention unsuspecting opponents will be like "OMGWTF IT MOVES!?"
Gamgee wrote: Apparently someone is saying the Tidewall can reflect shots back at its opponent from reading the description. Hahah.
If that's true that is far more troll worthy than the Ta'unar. Is the Ta'unar better? Yes, but imagine the looks on their faces as their own shots are killing them.
Hahah.
Better yet. Ta'unar with a toe in behind the Tidewall.
Thing is, its so huge that unless it bends and folds or simply goes OVER terrain, its not going to be able to do much more than shimmy around.
Thats why im so heated about crisis suits getting a base size increase. When you actually play with terrain and dont contour to gunlines by having LoS blocks all over the place, large bases get in the way.
Seeing as the terrain is floating the only parts where it actually touches the ground are in the middle of each piece. I wouldn't be too worried as there might be a rule for individual sections detaching.
Caederes wrote: I was thinking it might have to do with Drones and squads having mixed unit types but the Breachers lack the rule. We know more than one unit has the rule as otherwise it would have been detailed in the Ghostkeel profile. Honestly it could be anything, even something like allowing independent characters to join units of monstrous creatures. I'm guessing it's either exclusive to Battlesuits (most likely) or exclusive to monstrous creatures in the codex.
You're missing an important part of what might be the difference:
Breachers are not coming, as standard, with Drones. Ghostkeels cannot be purchased without their attendant two Stealth Drones. "Fireteams" might very well be that each Ghostkeel and its attendant Drones might form their own "Unit" that operates independently of the others, ala a more advanced version of "Combat Squad" rules.
Additionally? Breachers and Drones are both classified as Infantry, with Drones just adding in the relevant rules for "Jump Infantry".
It really is worth noting though that Ghostkeels have been the only thing seen so far with that special rule. Stormsurge didn't have it and Breachers don't have it, but neither of those units come with Drones as standard either.
I'm aware of that but it doesn't really make sense for the unit to gain the rule only specifically when it has Drones as the Ghostkeel itself has Fire Team, not its Drones. I still think it has to do more with Battlesuits than anything else.
Caederes wrote: I'm aware of that but it doesn't really make sense for the unit to gain the rule only specifically when it has Drones as the Ghostkeel itself has Fire Team, not its Drones. I still think it has to do more with Battlesuits than anything else.
Okay.
You're missing what I'm saying I think. Read the option for taking additional Ghostkeels in the Ghostkeel unit entry we got from White Dwarf:
May include up to two additional Ghostkeel Shas'vre, each with two MV5 Stealth Drones
If "Fireteam" was a rule for Drones and mixed units, don't you think it would be present on the Breachers?
Gamgee wrote: Apparently someone is saying the Tidewall can reflect shots back at its opponent from reading the description. Hahah.
If that's true that is far more troll worthy than the Ta'unar. Is the Ta'unar better? Yes, but imagine the looks on their faces as their own shots are killing them.
Hahah.
Better yet. Ta'unar with a toe in behind the Tidewall.
Someday I'll have both. Someday. This new limited terrain is priority though. Looks way to fun.
Caederes wrote: I'm aware of that but it doesn't really make sense for the unit to gain the rule only specifically when it has Drones as the Ghostkeel itself has Fire Team, not its Drones. I still think it has to do more with Battlesuits than anything else.
Okay.
You're missing what I'm saying I think. Read the option for taking additional Ghostkeels in the Ghostkeel unit entry we got from White Dwarf:
May include up to two additional Ghostkeel Shas'vre, each with two MV5 Stealth Drones
If "Fireteam" was a rule for Drones and mixed units, don't you think it would be present on the Breachers?
I understand what you are saying perfectly. I'm eliminating the possibilities of what the rule does by saying I don't think it would be a rule just any unit would get from having Drones as I actually mentioned in my earlier comment. For the last part of your comment, you're actually agreeing with my assertion that it probably has nothing to do with mixed units as I said earlier; "I was thinking it might have to do with Drones and squads having mixed unit types but the Breachers lack the rule."
Which leads into my best guess being that it is probably a rule that won't appear on any of the regular Infantry units.
The blurb about Ghostkeels helping Stormsurges hit better may be the fireteam rule, not just a formation specific rule. Possibly that enemy units hit by, or with a specific range of the Ghostkeel get a bonus to being shot.
That might be possible, that could also be a rule that the other "skirmisher" or support type units possess, i.e. Pathfinders and Stealth Teams.
Honestly, if I had to take a guess as to what it does right now....
The rule is called "Fire Team" and so far we know it is on the Ghostkeel, which comprises between one and three Ghostkeels plus between two to six Drones. Not all rule names reflect what the actual rules themselves do for a unit but generally you can see the logic behind the marriage of title and effect.
With all that in mind, I'm guessing it has something to do with how squads are comprised. In this case, Kanluwen's earlier suggestion that it could be a form of Combat Squads would actually make a lot of sense, and it could be pretty powerful too as it would alleviate any stress on the Force Organization Chart for Tau and give them lots of extra scoring units ala Space Marines. While the first benefit might be made redundant by the Decurion-style detachment it would still be a cool rule IMO.
Gamgee wrote: Apparently someone is saying the Tidewall can reflect shots back at its opponent from reading the description. Hahah.
If that's true that is far more troll worthy than the Ta'unar. Is the Ta'unar better? Yes, but imagine the looks on their faces as their own shots are killing them.
Hahah.
It's gonna be fun moving it and backing the enemy into a corner of the board! Nice way to block in White Scars & Ravenwing!
Didn't see English versions, but I admit I haven't read every page Here is the text of the 2 pages on Tidewall, specifically, those that mention that (a) it can move and (b) it reflects shots back on the attackers.
How it can advance and withdraw as required:
How it can "deflect incoming fire, often with devastating results for the attackers":
Talys wrote: Didn't see English versions, but I admit I haven't read every page Here is the text of the 2 pages on Tidewall, specifically, those that mention that (a) it can move and (b) it reflects shots back on the attackers.
How it can advance and withdraw as required:
How it can "deflect incoming fire, often with devastating results for the attackers":
I don't ever like to say "I told you so" but regarding the Tidewall actually moving.....dayum, how did people honestly not see it happening with the "mobile" comment?
This thing is going to be awesome I bet, I can't wait to have my Tau buddies use it to see what it's like.
Cheers Talys! It's a shame the White Dwarf doesn't have its rules but I guess they want to push the kit so people don't just scratch-build it.
How it can "deflect incoming fire, often with devastating results for the attackers":
Wasn't there a Necron shield that did this same thing? Something like any saved attacks can be reflected at a nearby enemy unit? Or was that an older codex?
How it can "deflect incoming fire, often with devastating results for the attackers":
Wasn't there a Necron shield that did this same thing? Something like any saved attacks can be reflected at a nearby enemy unit? Or was that an older codex?
The old Lychguard used to do this in the Necron 5th Edition codex with their Dispersion Shields.
How it can "deflect incoming fire, often with devastating results for the attackers":
Wasn't there a Necron shield that did this same thing? Something like any saved attacks can be reflected at a nearby enemy unit? Or was that an older codex?
Dispersion Shield in the previous codex. Now all it provides is a 3+ Invulnerable save.
The new Tau terrain looks really good; I can definitely hope that more terrain kits get released for Xenos armies. Now all we need to see are the rules for the terrain and codex leaks.
Honestly this thing could be a real problem if they don't get it right. You can house up to 50 Fire Warriors on what is presumably a defence line that has shot-deflecting shields across all of it, a twin-linked railgun turret and a batch of Drones, all the while the thing can actually move forwards or backwards? Yikes. That's a lot of rules we haven't seen implemented onto a terrain piece before!
The pictures show Riptides/Stormsurges/etc all standing right behind the Tidewall Rampart, I wonder if any unit can have part of their base on the Tidewall and get its defensive benefits? We have no idea of what it will actually do and how it will function but the idea of a Stormsurge sitting in a Tidewall that reflects Destroyer shots back at the firer is pretty dang hilarious; I'm assuming it won't be that good.
Caederes wrote: Honestly this thing could be a real problem if they don't get it right. You can house up to 50 Fire Warriors on what is presumably a defence line that has shot-deflecting shields across all of it, a twin-linked railgun turret and a batch of Drones, all the while the thing can actually move forwards or backwards? Yikes. That's a lot of rules we haven't seen implemented onto a terrain piece before!
The pictures show Riptides/Stormsurges/etc all standing right behind the Tidewall Rampart, I wonder if any unit can have part of their base on the Tidewall and get its defensive benefits? We have no idea of what it will actually do and how it will function but the idea of a Stormsurge sitting in a Tidewall that reflects Destroyer shots back at the firer is pretty dang hilarious; I'm assuming it won't be that good.
If it reflects destroyer shots I'm going to LOL my ass off. Hahah. I'm already pre laughing and I don't even know if its possible. Imagine if its actually possible? More likely only the sections with the energy field will reflect.
Caederes wrote: I don't ever like to say "I told you so" but regarding the Tidewall actually moving.....dayum, how did people honestly not see it happening with the "mobile" comment?
This thing is going to be awesome I bet, I can't wait to have my Tau buddies use it to see what it's like.
Cheers Talys! It's a shame the White Dwarf doesn't have its rules but I guess they want to push the kit so people don't just scratch-build it.
Yeah, I think it's pretty unambiguous. I don't see how anyone could read the English paragraphs and interpret it as being a stationary model
It is pretty cool that there's a mobile piece of terrain now. One potential problem is that most games that we play, you couldn't actually move this very much, because we have too much OTHER terrain, hehehe.
Hovers over the battlefield. Moves away and forward as the battle changes. It's in the first little part.
Did we see any rules for the Ghostkeel when we seen its picture first then its description? No, but we knew it would be stealthy and have some sort of rules that would work with its fluff as depicted.
All of this things fluff says two things. It floats and moves, and it reflects (though I'm not entirely convinced it would redirect). It uses the word reflect and says that it has "devastating consequences" for the enemy. Yeah it would be bad having your shots redirected away from the target, but does that imply it will hit the enemies who shot at it? No.
I could see it ranting cover saves to stuff behind it like normal terrain, but keepin all the special rules limited to models "embarked" on it, and limiting it to (jump/jet)infantry models.
vitae_drinker wrote: Still not seeing any rules about it moving during a game...
Are you actually serious?
It's as if everything we've read about the model - its product description, its accompanying analysis article, etc - all say that it moves in games.
Please tell me you are being facetious?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MajorWesJanson wrote: I could see it ranting cover saves to stuff behind it like normal terrain, but keepin all the special rules limited to models "embarked" on it, and limiting it to (jump/jet)infantry models.
This is probably a good bet and I would be happy with that as it would still give Stormsurges/Riptides/Hammerheads/etc a moving 5+ (or maybe 4+ if they get the defence line bonus for touching it) cover save that doesn't inhibit their actual mobility.
We don't have it yet. Until then we have the product description which says it's mobile, that's all we have, and that's what we are going after. Just wait a few days and we'll have it for sure. Heck the codex might even be released.
Oh, I'm patient. I just think it's hilarious all the people jumping all over this like they have proof it does what they think it does. Honestly, even IF it moves during a game, most game tables (unless you play on a flat plain) will restrict its movement.
Could it have some sort of redeployment mode? I could see that. But a moving fort? Especially one that's indestructible like some are postulating? Nah, I don't see it.
I'm sorry, how are we "jumping all over this like (we) have proof" when it says in numerous different spots that it moves? Christ. It's like the product description gives a hint of what the product does.
vitae_drinker wrote: Oh, I'm patient. I just think it's hilarious all the people jumping all over this like they have proof it does what they think it does. Honestly, even IF it moves during a game, most game tables (unless you play on a flat plain) will restrict its movement.
Could it have some sort of redeployment mode? I could see that. But a moving fort? Especially one that's indestructible like some are postulating? Nah, I don't see it.
Well the official description of it in the official publication of the company makes it says it does something, people tend to take that as...yknow "Official"
Not an original thought by any means, but it definitely just struck me how if the rules are in the box, surely that means anyone can use it? Can't imagine faction specific terrain anyways.
Just makes me laugh wondering how many "captured" and "converted" Tide walls we will see on the battlefield!
The description also lends to Kan's excellent point about separate and smaller sections in the future.
It clearly is three fortification sections, (gunrig, droneport, shieldline). This box is prolly a bundle of what will be three seperate kits later.
It only mentions plastic in one part - so I hope its not resin - which would have a greater chance at being limited.
Fluff wise yes, it moves during a battle or campaign - but in a battle or campaign we have orcas delivering drone turrets, etc. Will this actually move in the confines of a single tactical engagement that occurs over a field the size of a football field? don't really know.
Its huge - look at the footprint on that thing. It might not even be possible to get it on most tables, much less move it around.
I hope it can move, that would be cool - but we don't 100% know. I also hope the rules are decent (and not overly complex) and its fairly costed, points wise. We already know its over costed in dollars.
How it can "deflect incoming fire, often with devastating results for the attackers":
Wasn't there a Necron shield that did this same thing? Something like any saved attacks can be reflected at a nearby enemy unit? Or was that an older codex?
The 1960's style robots on the mechanics cults reflect shots (not sure if it is just the formation or if they all do it). If anyone can have this fortification then it is going to suck to have four wraithknights hiding behind this....
Interested to see the stats on that wall and whether or not Allies can use it. Seeing as the Tau alliance table is basically "anyone who isn't a bug or a manifestation of horror", it might see play around even if it is for Tau only.
Has anyone opened up one of those new repackaged boxed of Devilfish? Wonder if they have finally included all the weapon choices in the box.(Read: SMS)
From the product description:
This boxed set contains 1 multi-part plastic Tau Devilfish APC with a variety of optional parts and weapons.
I've no recollection what the old description was but I guess that's the same?
Fire Team could indeed mean something for the Stormsurge. Considering the Ghostkeel is the only one we know of that has it and the fluff points to it being a recon unit in a sense, yet it doesnt have any currently known rules to help other units.
When i saw that fluff i thought "so why doesnt this thing have some kind of dual-markerlight type weapon (applies 2 marks instead of 1) if its a spotter for the surge?"
wighti wrote: Has anyone opened up one of those new repackaged boxed of Devilfish? Wonder if they have finally included all the weapon choices in the box.(Read: SMS)
From the product description:
This boxed set contains 1 multi-part plastic Tau Devilfish APC with a variety of optional parts and weapons.
I've no recollection what the old description was but I guess that's the same?
While the fish (and hh, skyray, etc.) could certainly benefit from a new design (there are a lot of gaps in the current model, etc.) I think if gw was making a new kit, we would have heard about it by now...and a big price increase.
To get the sms, you need the hammerhead spure, if I am not mistaken. A good substitute are any extra sms from the broadsides (I only put one on, and call it twin linked) riptide, sunsharks, or of course, just gluing two missile pods together from crisis kits.
Speaking of sunsharks - here is hoping the flyers get a really sold revamp of the rules - they are incredibly bad. Would love to see the sales numbers on those, as compared to say ...riptides.
They could easily just add an extra mini-sprue to give it the SMS - would they? doubtful.
My SMS are literally kitbashed Gun Drones with Missile Pods. Theres no real difference other than the fancy gibbings that "hold the missiles" instead of just being tacked on the bottom of a drone
While the fish (and hh, skyray, etc.) could certainly benefit from a new design (there are a lot of gaps in the current model, etc.) I think if gw was making a new kit, we would have heard about it by now...and a big price increase.
To get the sms, you need the hammerhead spure, if I am not mistaken. A good substitute are any extra sms from the broadsides (I only put one on, and call it twin linked) riptide, sunsharks, or of course, just gluing two missile pods together from crisis kits.
Speaking of sunsharks - here is hoping the flyers get a really sold revamp of the rules - they are incredibly bad. Would love to see the sales numbers on those, as compared to say ...riptides.
Haven't you heard? GW does no market research, therefore they have no need of these "sales numbers" of which you speak!
In all seriousness, I do hope the flyers are improved. They may be ugly, but that never stopped the Stormraven or Stormtalon from being effective.
I have a a bunch of extra hammerheads that I got dirt cheap form a buddy of mine who was selling his stuff off, so I just pop the turrerts off and use them as 'fish.
TheNewBlood wrote: In all seriousness, I do hope the flyers are improved. They may be ugly, but that never stopped the Stormraven or Stormtalon from being effective.
In all seriousness, I wish the sun shark/razorshark kit would disappear, to be replaced by a plastic barracuda kit.
And inside that kit is an apology to every Tau player for not releasing a plastic barracuda in the first place.
In regards to the Tau Shieldwall, this kit is reportedly able to be purchased in sections (rules-wise and later model kit wise). If this is movable terrain that provides a good cover save, I could see folks that don't play Tau take a minimal CAD just to get access to the Tau Shieldwall. That is assuming the rules actually specify it is Tau specific. With that said, I'm not thinking about all the Imperial Fortifications that have been usable for all armies as there was no indication stating otherwise. This kit could have a lot of potential.
Sarigar wrote: In regards to the Tau Shieldwall, this kit is reportedly able to be purchased in sections (rules-wise and later model kit wise).
It damn well better be, I'm sick and tired of fething limited edition everything and it would be hilariously stupid if their first xeno-specific 40k terrain ended up being the same. I don't even give a damn about the rules, I just want Tau-themed terrain (and to be able to actually buy it).
If you really want it that strongly, be prepared to pre-order it when it becomes available. Having it be available later and in smaller kits is still rumor at this point.
Luchiban from warseer has been getting kits early so far in this release. I would suspect the same to be true for the terrain kit as well -- likely we will see the fortification rules sometime early-middle next week. I already told my FLGS that if they can get a set in I wanted it, so we will see if that happens. I'm currently the only tau player locally buying stuff, so at least there's no competition for the kit where i'm at.
So just to ask then now that people would have gotten their hands on the Stormsurge, it is definitive that it doesn't come with a piece to cover up the cockpit alas? Sorry if that's been definitively answered somewhere. >_>
GenRifDrake wrote: So just to ask then now that people would have gotten their hands on the Stormsurge, it is definitive that it doesn't come with a piece to cover up the cockpit alas? Sorry if that's been definitively answered somewhere. >_>
I need to watch that video when i can have sound playing lol (im in programming class and bored). That guy seems to completely ignore all the problems i have with out of the pot paints especially the metal colors. It either is so thin it doesnt actually paint without multiple layers or it balls up because its too thick.
And i cant believe i never thought about using wash in specific, controlled use to make detail pop like that. Its primarily shaded area or crack filler for me (underside of a riptide for instance is carpeted in it while the top is left alone save for a couple cracks)
Not a fan of the insanely subtle edging work, i never notice it even up close. But the dabbing thing is a great idea for some paint chipping
The stuff he shows isn't advanced or anything, but he's showing us how to do it in a friendly and patient way, I've learned a lot from his tutorials on how to paint a Knight.
BrookM wrote: The stuff he shows isn't advanced or anything, but he's showing us how to do it in a friendly and patient way, I've learned a lot from his tutorials on how to paint a Knight.
Thats my thing though, i dont like painting to the insane levels people do for competitions because it takes like a week to do that per model, no thanks! but at the same note im one of those guys that cant carpet paint to get it painted for table quality, if i see detail i gotta paint it. Its the detail within the paint that i tend to overlook. This is the Riptide i literally painted 5 days ago. Theres a bunch of things i could do to improve this model just by watching this video without sound, so i definitely need sound lol
Spoiler:
The golden parts especially kill me. To get them to look like that i paint them like 4 times, once with a yellow Base paint and 2-3 times with Gold depending on the size of the piece. Ive never gotten ANY metal paints that didnt have a too thin problem, which is what the base yellow is for. And yes, its purple. Nobody does purple and it looks good on Tau especially with the green/white so i went with it lol. Also it serves as a side-joke on Japanese culture since Tau are obviously anime based in some way - purple is the color of death for them lol.
Though that is one thing he did i already do - the primary armor color is the primer lol. I use Army Painter primers of various colors depending on the model - i dont have any painted yet, but my stealth suits are primed blue because i intend to paint the top half sky-like and the bottom half earthy. Not a simple task lol
The golden parts especially kill me. To get them to look like that i paint them like 4 times, once with a yellow Base paint and 2-3 times with Gold depending on the size of the piece. Ive never gotten ANY metal paints that didnt have a too thin problem, which is what the base yellow is for.
For gold, I do a medium brown and 2 coats of gold, usually followed with a brown wash and highlighted again with the same or one shade lighter gold.
Ghostkeel painting tutorial up! Some great angles and close ups here.
He's wearing a tau shirt. Perhaps GW is releasing army themed t-gaks? And, honestly, branded t-shirts are all stupidly overpriced, so they won't even get flack if they charge $25-$30 for them, I could definitely see them doing so.
Lately for my gold paints, I've done a base of Balthasar Gold(usually 2 or 3 layers of it) followed by a dry brushing of Golden Griffon and then a wash of Seraphim Sepia. Works wonders!
One thing that I always stress whenever someone asks me how I have painted gold is that I don't just paint straight over black primer.
I always put down a layer of Rhinox Hide(used to be Scorched Brown) first, then start with the gold. It makes it a hell of a lot more vibrant and warm.
You're missing an important part of what might be the difference:
Breachers are not coming, as standard, with Drones. Ghostkeels cannot be purchased without their attendant two Stealth Drones. "Fireteams" might very well be that each Ghostkeel and its attendant Drones might form their own "Unit" that operates independently of the others, ala a more advanced version of "Combat Squad" rules.
Additionally? Breachers and Drones are both classified as Infantry, with Drones just adding in the relevant rules for "Jump Infantry".
Your first point is well thought out, but I suspect incorrect. The name of the rulet is antithetical to its inferred military definition (being the smallest tactical unit designed to work with others in Maneuver and FIre doctrine). Being a fireteam is essentially the opposite of operating independently. (of course, The Tau Race's definition may differ in BG material, or it might be hopelessly misnamed)
I suspect it does something like allow split fire, rerolling to hits rolls,Overwatch modification, or some other form of fire discipline-based rule. I'm sure I'll also be wrong, but it seems the most logical to me based on the nomenclature.
It really is worth noting though that Ghostkeels have been the only thing seen so far with that special rule.
That is a keen observation that has had me pondering and one I didn't expect. It has to be semi-universal in the Tau list (must show up on more than one unit) or else they would have defined the rule in WD, wouldn't they?
Im actually painting over purple primer, but same thing i guess lol. Thats why i use i think its Evil Sunz Yellow to basically re-prime the area in a more favorable color.
TheNewBlood wrote: In all seriousness, I do hope the flyers are improved. They may be ugly, but that never stopped the Stormraven or Stormtalon from being effective.
In all seriousness, I wish the sun shark/razorshark kit would disappear, to be replaced by a plastic barracuda kit.
And inside that kit is an apology to every Tau player for not releasing a plastic barracuda in the first place.
Oddly, I enjoy the look of the GW Tau Flyers, though I admit I was put off at first.
I was curious what were the governing decisions that kept them from making a plastic Barracuda when the 'Sharks were released. I suspect there is a a business-side reason for doing so.
You're missing an important part of what might be the difference:
Breachers are not coming, as standard, with Drones. Ghostkeels cannot be purchased without their attendant two Stealth Drones. "Fireteams" might very well be that each Ghostkeel and its attendant Drones might form their own "Unit" that operates independently of the others, ala a more advanced version of "Combat Squad" rules.
Additionally? Breachers and Drones are both classified as Infantry, with Drones just adding in the relevant rules for "Jump Infantry".
Your first point is well thought out, but I suspect incorrect. The name of the rulet is antithetical to its inferred military definition (being the smallest tactical unit designed to work with others in Maneuver and FIre doctrine). Being a fireteam is essentially the opposite of operating independently. (of course, The Tau Race's definition may differ in BG material, or it might be hopelessly misnamed)
I suspect it does something like allow split fire, rerolling to hits rolls,Overwatch modification, or some other form of fire discipline-based rule. I'm sure I'll also be wrong, but it seems the most logical to me based on the nomenclature.
I posted a few other guesses as to what it might be when we first got the rules photos, and Split Fire was one of them I considered. I'm starting to come around more and more to the idea that it is a rule which divides them up into individual "units" of a Ghostkeel and its two Drones.
The reason why? It could be for Leadership test purposes for a big model that comes with two little models and you can take up to 3 as a single choice(essentially forming a unit).
It really is worth noting though that Ghostkeels have been the only thing seen so far with that special rule.
That is a keen observation that has had me pondering and one I didn't expect. It has to be semi-universal in the Tau list (must show up on more than one unit) or else they would have defined the rule in WD, wouldn't they?
If I had to make a guess, the units we'd see with "Fireteam" might be those that come with Drones as mandatory options.
-Ghostkeel
-Sniper Drones(Remember that you can purchase multiple operators and extra Sniper Drones)
I could see the Riptide being forced to take its Shielded Missile Drones as well, but not getting "Fireteam" unless multiple Riptides could be taken.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kronk wrote: On the mobile terrain discussion: Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But if it is, my group uses so much terrain that what would be the point.
*Blip!* "Whoo-Hoo! I moved a whole 2.4" forwards! Charge!"
But if those little round thingies can zoom around, that would be kick ass.
If I had to guess, it will be something like it can move while a Tau Empire unit is embarked upon it and each individual section can move separately.
If Riptides are forced to take their shielded drones im going to be pissed. I'd rather not have them even if they are FREE because they pose that big a threat to its own well-being. Its not that hard to snipe a drone when only one model is standing in front of it, no matter how large it is, and force a leadership because 1 of 3 = 33% which is beyond 25% BAM leadership test.
Though i would be surprised if riptides arent taken in squads. If only Ghostkeels were in squads, i wouldnt expect it, but Stormsurges are squads....? Wouldnt make any sense if Riptides didnt become squads.
But if those little round thingies can zoom around, that would be kick ass.
If there is a game-side mobile component to the model, I hope that is it. (the round dicks could essentially be a docked open topped vehicle)
I am hoping the Mobile terrain is more a BG material element justifying why the Tau would have fortifications at all, not that there is a table top effect.
the concept of a Mobile bunker(that looks like a bunker) still seem silly to me even with that justification. Why wouldn't the Tau more logically create a vehicle that give the embark troops fire ports or platform to fire from, (like the IG StormLord). The Tau can still have Bunkers (occasionally ANY army has to Hold a position), But when it come to mobility, designs based around Static fortifications are silly at their foundation at this scale.
They could have easily made it a legit vehicle, but i bet they didnt because it would be insanely difficult to find its facings on top of being the weirdest Super Heavy Vehicle in the game. No way it would be a regular vehicle since that would constrict the multiple units and its far too big anyway.
GW does do SOME things to make games make a little more sense/simple....note i said some...
Vineheart01 wrote: If Riptides are forced to take their shielded drones im going to be pissed. I'd rather not have them even if they are FREE because they pose that big a threat to its own well-being. Its not that hard to snipe a drone when only one model is standing in front of it, no matter how large it is, and force a leadership because 1 of 3 = 33% which is beyond 25% BAM leadership test.
Though i would be surprised if riptides arent taken in squads. If only Ghostkeels were in squads, i wouldnt expect it, but Stormsurges are squads....? Wouldnt make any sense if Riptides didnt become squads.
I always take one missile Drone, only I always hide it behind the riptide. Why? Because your majority armor save becomes a 4+.
Nothing makes me happier than watching the smug grin melt away when an opponent realizes their grav isn't wounding my Riptide on a 2+.
But if those little round thingies can zoom around, that would be kick ass.
If there is a game-side mobile component to the model, I hope that is it. (the round dicks could essentially be a docked open topped vehicle)
I am hoping the Mobile terrain is more a BG material element justifying why the Tau would have fortifications at all, not that there is a table top effect.
the concept of a Mobile bunker(that looks like a bunker) still seem silly to me even with that justification. Why wouldn't the Tau more logically create a vehicle that give the embark troops fire ports or platform to fire from, (like the IG StormLord). The Tau can still have Bunkers (occasionally ANY army has to Hold a position), But when it come to mobility, designs based around Static fortifications are silly at their foundation at this scale.
Vineheart01 wrote: If Riptides are forced to take their shielded drones im going to be pissed. I'd rather not have them even if they are FREE because they pose that big a threat to its own well-being. Its not that hard to snipe a drone when only one model is standing in front of it, no matter how large it is, and force a leadership because 1 of 3 = 33% which is beyond 25% BAM leadership test.
Though i would be surprised if riptides arent taken in squads. If only Ghostkeels were in squads, i wouldnt expect it, but Stormsurges are squads....? Wouldnt make any sense if Riptides didnt become squads.
I always take one missile Drone, only I always hide it behind the riptide. Why? Because your majority armor save becomes a 4+.
Nothing makes me happier than watching the smug grin melt away when an opponent realizes their grav isn't wounding my Riptide on a 2+.
Gravs wound on majority? Did..not know that. Then again there arent any vanilla marine players around here, all of us think theyre either trash or cheese, they have no "friendly" list that can still win
I thought the Fire Team rule would just state that the 'Suit in the unit (Ghostkeel, Riptide, Broadside, etc) doesn't have to take Ld checks if the drones in the unit get destroyed.
They're a 'Fire Team' unit after all, and no Ghostkeel pilot is going to mourn the loss of a couple of automated drones.
Unless the Ghostkeel pilot has formed a secret relationship with one of the drones over many, many years of fighting alongside it...a secret love, a hidden desire...
Vineheart01 wrote: They could have easily made it a legit vehicle, but i bet they didnt because it would be insanely difficult to find its facings on top of being the weirdest Super Heavy Vehicle in the game. No way it would be a regular vehicle since that would constrict the multiple units and its far too big anyway.
GW does do SOME things to make games make a little more sense/simple....note i said some...
Totally agree, but my point is more to thinking of how a Tau engineer would approach making a mobile firing platform. They would more likely create a vehicle that allows embarked firing positions, NOT take a building and make it fly in a manner that translate to a quantifiable effect in the scale that the game encompases.
Dr. Delorean wrote: I thought the Fire Team rule would just state that the 'Suit in the unit (Ghostkeel, Riptide, Broadside, etc) doesn't have to take Ld checks if the drones in the unit get destroyed.
They're a 'Fire Team' unit after all, and no Ghostkeel pilot is going to mourn the loss of a couple of automated drones.
Unless the Ghostkeel pilot has formed a secret relationship with one of the drones over many, many years of fighting alongside it...a secret love, a hidden desire...
Hmm, still a better love story than Twilight.
Nobody knows the rule. Any kind of crunch regarding that, to this point, is pure speculation
Vineheart01 wrote: If Riptides are forced to take their shielded drones im going to be pissed. I'd rather not have them even if they are FREE because they pose that big a threat to its own well-being. Its not that hard to snipe a drone when only one model is standing in front of it, no matter how large it is, and force a leadership because 1 of 3 = 33% which is beyond 25% BAM leadership test.
Though i would be surprised if riptides arent taken in squads. If only Ghostkeels were in squads, i wouldnt expect it, but Stormsurges are squads....? Wouldnt make any sense if Riptides didnt become squads.
I always take one missile Drone, only I always hide it behind the riptide. Why? Because your majority armor save becomes a 4+.
Nothing makes me happier than watching the smug grin melt away when an opponent realizes their grav isn't wounding my Riptide on a 2+.
Gravs wound on majority? Did..not know that. Then again there arent any vanilla marine players around here, all of us think theyre either trash or cheese, they have no "friendly" list that can still win
No it doesn't, that's just how most people play it (including me), dude shouldn't have stated it as a fact however, it can cause this exact kind of confusion and cannot be reliably used as a tactic as some tourneys or groups may not play it that way.
But if those little round thingies can zoom around, that would be kick ass.
If there is a game-side mobile component to the model, I hope that is it. (the round dicks could essentially be a docked open topped vehicle)
I am hoping the Mobile terrain is more a BG material element justifying why the Tau would have fortifications at all, not that there is a table top effect.
the concept of a Mobile bunker(that looks like a bunker) still seem silly to me even with that justification. Why wouldn't the Tau more logically create a vehicle that give the embark troops fire ports or platform to fire from, (like the IG StormLord). The Tau can still have Bunkers (occasionally ANY army has to Hold a position), But when it come to mobility, designs based around Static fortifications are silly at their foundation at this scale.
but to each his own.
WD says:
The Tidewall Rampart hovers above the battlefield, skimming mere inches above cracked earth or ash wastes, borne aloft by the power that thrums through its anti-grav generators. In this fashion, it is able to advance with the main force, providing fire support with its twin-linked railgun and a steady gun platform for squads of Fire Warriors. Should the army wish to fall back, the Tidewall withdraws just as smoothly, ensuring those Tau troopers aboard it can concentrate solely on unleasing a punishing hail of fire into the foe.
I don't see how it could be more clear that models can sit on the Tidewall, fire from it, and the Tidewall itself can advance and retreat.
Elsewhere it distinctly says that the drones can detach and zip off as separate models; it even has a picture of that.
Here's where it's quoted from. Incidentally, just for laughs, these exact photos (mine!) are posted up as BoLS news today, even though I snapped the photos yesterday. At least they could have given some credit as coming from Dakka. You saw it here first!
Spoiler:
Talys wrote: How it can advance and withdraw as required:
How it can "deflect incoming fire, often with devastating results for the attackers":
Vineheart01 wrote: If Riptides are forced to take their shielded drones im going to be pissed. I'd rather not have them even if they are FREE because they pose that big a threat to its own well-being. Its not that hard to snipe a drone when only one model is standing in front of it, no matter how large it is, and force a leadership because 1 of 3 = 33% which is beyond 25% BAM leadership test.
Though i would be surprised if riptides arent taken in squads. If only Ghostkeels were in squads, i wouldnt expect it, but Stormsurges are squads....? Wouldnt make any sense if Riptides didnt become squads.
I always take one missile Drone, only I always hide it behind the riptide. Why? Because your majority armor save becomes a 4+.
Nothing makes me happier than watching the smug grin melt away when an opponent realizes their grav isn't wounding my Riptide on a 2+.
Doesnt that just make it a 50/50 split and make it stay at 2+? Not sure if it allows you to actually choose when there is a tie, although if it would auto-take the 'best' I suppose from your point of a view the 4+ would be best .
krazynadechukr wrote: I see massive amounts of hills, terrain features, and buildings cluttering the table to counter this Tau Wall from ever being deployed...
Which makes the game way more interesting than those bland stuff most people use
The Tidewall Rampart hovers above the battlefield, skimming mere inches above cracked earth or ash wastes, borne aloft by the power that thrums through its anti-grav generators. In this fashion, it is able to advance with the main force, providing fire support with its twin-linked railgun and a steady gun platform for squads of Fire Warriors. Should the army wish to fall back, the Tidewall withdraws just as smoothly, ensuring those Tau troopers aboard it can concentrate solely on unleasing a punishing hail of fire into the foe.
I don't see how it could be more clear that models can sit on the Tidewall, fire from it, and the Tidewall itself can advance and retreat.
....
Here's where it's quoted from. Incidentally, just for laughs, these exact photos (mine!) are posted up as BoLS news today, even though I snapped the photos yesterday. At least they could have given some credit as coming from Dakka. You saw it here first!
Spoiler:
Talys wrote: How it can advance and withdraw as required:
How it can "deflect incoming fire, often with devastating results for the attackers":
sure! AND.... It MIGHT behave in the rules exactly as that...
It will still seem patently ridiculous IMO.
The Razor Shark Model's description on the website says it "is capable of sweeping down from the skies", but to my knowledge it still is a static model on a flying stand.
Vineheart01 wrote: If Riptides are forced to take their shielded drones im going to be pissed. I'd rather not have them even if they are FREE because they pose that big a threat to its own well-being. Its not that hard to snipe a drone when only one model is standing in front of it, no matter how large it is, and force a leadership because 1 of 3 = 33% which is beyond 25% BAM leadership test.
Though i would be surprised if riptides arent taken in squads. If only Ghostkeels were in squads, i wouldnt expect it, but Stormsurges are squads....? Wouldnt make any sense if Riptides didnt become squads.
I always take one missile Drone, only I always hide it behind the riptide. Why? Because your majority armor save becomes a 4+.
Nothing makes me happier than watching the smug grin melt away when an opponent realizes their grav isn't wounding my Riptide on a 2+.
Doesnt that just make it a 50/50 split and make it stay at 2+? Not sure if it allows you to actually choose when there is a tie, although if it would auto-take the 'best' I suppose from your point of a view the 4+ would be best .
He's applying the principles set by wounding toughness, where it favors the defender (one T4 model and one T5 model mean you wound against the higher toughness instead of the lower). There isn't a solid rule stating it either way unfortunately. I personally favor this method since it keeps in line with how wounding works overall.
The Razor Shark Model's description on the website says it "is capable of sweeping down from the skies", but to my knowledge it still is a static model on a flying stand.
i just got my box in for my Stormsurge, and thumbing through it to get an idea how its normally put together before i start hacking away at it to fix the stupid armlessness problem, i noticed it has the rules in the back of the instructions....?
Whats really odd is its missing the gun profiles. Its just the points, stat line, and wargear lists.
Why would they put those in there at all? And on top of that, only put in the points but not the gun profiles?
i just got my box in for my Stormsurge, and thumbing through it to get an idea how its normally put together before i start hacking away at it to fix the stupid armlessness problem, i noticed it has the rules in the back of the instructions....?
Whats really odd is its missing the gun profiles. Its just the points, stat line, and wargear lists.
Why would they put those in there at all? And on top of that, only put in the points but not the gun profiles?
They've been doing that for a good while now. It's just to see an overview of what the model can do and it's not expected that you'll keep instructions around to actually play, they want you to buy the codex for that.
Their sales reps should quit telling us the kits "include all the rules" then. I had no idea they didn't include complete rules for the model. Bad because this is what i have told my customers.
Technically what they include with the instructions these days is the same page as found the codex, giving you the entry sans the shiny image, but with all options and special rules, though the description and stats of these is found elsewhere in the codex.
BrookM wrote: Technically what they include with the instructions these days is the same page as found the codex, giving you the entry sans the shiny image, but with all options and special rules, though the description and stats of these is found elsewhere in the codex.
BrookM wrote: Technically what they include with the instructions these days is the same page as found the codex, giving you the entry sans the shiny image, but with all options and special rules, though the description and stats of these is found elsewhere in the codex.
I'd venture to guess that the reflecting shots of the Tidewall will work something like the Admech Kastelan repulsor grid.
Something like "saves vs shooting attacks, on a roll of a 5-6 reflect the shot back to its source, inflicting a automatic hit. Cannot reflects blasts or templates"
If its something like that, my admech will hate it, but I don't see my IG worrying about it. Even if the Tidewall turns out to be super op (doubtful) I'm excited by the direction this is going. Maybe this is GW pushing towards a more mobile play style instead of static castles? This thought makes me yearn for a Leviathan.
Ir0njack wrote: I'd venture to guess that the reflecting shots of the Tidewall will work something like the Admech Kastelan repulsor grid.
Something like "saves vs shooting attacks, on a roll of a 5-6 reflect the shot back to its source, inflicting a automatic hit. Cannot reflects blasts or templates"
If its something like that, my admech will hate it, but I don't see my IG worrying about it. Even if the Tidewall turns out to be super op (doubtful) I'm excited by the direction this is going. Maybe this is GW pushing towards a more mobile play style instead of static castles? This thought makes me yearn for a Leviathan.
So, if a Kastellan fires at a Tidewall and its shot gets reflected... does it reflect until someone fails?
And capabilities. It's the only unit with no gimmicks I would take and run some of. Imagine with upgrades, units synergies, and formations? Going to be a beast.
I think that's the same model in both pictures. If you want to see what's speculated to be the coldstar go to the first page of this thread and look behind the crisis suits. There is a bulkier suit that almost looks like it has a broadside body. That is believed to be the coldstar.
This leads me to hope XV8 remain unchanged and not nerfed. Now we need to see the Commanders points and all the rules of the Coldstar and its associated weaponry.
Edit
Coldstar is... disappointing as well due to the fixed weaponry and it losing all the good stuff of being a FMC. Keep up that streak GW. Your finding more and more ways for is to never take any of the new things. The cherry on top is if our formations are trash. I'm hoping they aren't.
Edit
I am preparing to drop an F bomb on GW if I see this guys price is higher than it already is.
SinisterSamurai wrote: Coldstar is a commander with FMC type, missing a bunch of the FMC rules.
Now that is interesting. Guns might not be that good (depending on what the super-BC is), but FMC defense and mobility seems like it should have some potential.
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Gamgee wrote: and it losing all the good stuff of being a FMC.
All the good stuff? Who cares about some melee stats and a vector strike that requires you to come close to the enemy? It's still only hit with snap shots and can fly across half the table each turn.
SinisterSamurai wrote: Coldstar is a commander with FMC type, missing a bunch of the FMC rules.
Now that is interesting. Guns might not be that good (depending on what the super-BC is), but FMC defense and mobility seems like it should have some potential.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gamgee wrote: and it losing all the good stuff of being a FMC.
All the good stuff? Who cares about some melee stats and a vector strike that requires you to come close to the enemy? It's still only hit with snap shots and can fly across half the table each turn.
I have a Y'vahrah in my collection so at every turn I have to ask myself. This Coldstar or a Y'vahrah. I can see it has some sort of use, but it's not all that great.
Gamgee wrote: I have a Y'vahrah in my collection so at every turn I have to ask myself. This Coldstar or a Y'vahrah. I can see it has some sort of use, but it's not all that great.
Why compare a fast attack choice to an HQ choice? And the Y'vahra is only a FMC for movement, it doesn't get to keep the bonuses on defense.
The Coldstar Commander sounds awesome. You have locked wargear and lose all of your CC ability as an FMC, but can move like one, force Snap Shots, and can Jink on the ground. Unfortunately, being only T4 and with no ways to take Signature Systems, you either Jink or you die. Don't expect to win any fights against proper FMCs.
I want to preface this next post: The source does not remember the points cost, and apparently doesn't have any info beyond these shots.
Gamgee wrote: Right but it puts out so much more dakka it's not even comparable. I don't need two units with that role. And if I did I would just fly 2 Y'vahrah.
And if it turns out that a high-yield burst cannon is basically a Nova-charge profile without the Gets Hot (R36"S6AP4 Heavy12 rending)?
so far, only the breachers have indicated they have the support fire tau rule. i wander if that rule s retreating back to tau foot infntry only. that would bum me out a bit. LOVE the Coldstar though!(outsie the obvious weapon loadout complint)
Gamgee wrote: Right but it puts out so much more dakka it's not even comparable.
How do you know that when we haven't seen the stats for its BC? And, again, it's an HQ. You have to take an HQ no matter how many Y'vahras you bring, so the real comparison is this thing vs. a normal commander.
derling wrote:so far, only the breachers have indicated they have the support fire tau rule. i wander if that rule s retreating back to tau foot infntry only. that would bum me out a bit. LOVE the Coldstar though!(outsie the obvious weapon loadout complint)
...It says right there for the Commander: Independent Character, Supporting Fire, and Very Bulky...
Gamgee wrote: Right but it puts out so much more dakka it's not even comparable. I don't need two units with that role. And if I did I would just fly 2 Y'vahrah.
The Y'vahra has to get within 12" to be effective, can be shot and assaulted normally, can not be the warlord, has different weapons designed to be efficient against different units, and is almost certainly more expensive points wise. I can definitely see my self making a themed list with a coldstar or two, an Y'vahra or two and a barracuda (or maybe even the codex flyers if they improve) or two. A sort of Tau sky warrior list.
Remoras would be fun too. Annoying as feth to kill considering their points cost (regular flyer jink+shrouded), but they can also provide marker support if need be. Pretty cool model as well.
So just to point out. The Flying Commander can fire 3 weapons a turn. 2 for FMC and +1 for a multi-tracker. It isn't really clear whether the weapons that come with the suit count against the 4 options from the Ranged/Signature/Support systems.
I like the ColdStar. Like, a lot. MP and BC tend to benefit from high BS. MP and BC is not a bad loadout for a commander. Still take 2 systems, so lot of potential there. FMC defense with a 4+ invul makes for a pretty durable warlord, by Tau standards.
I really like how they solved the issue of drones being jet pack and the suit being FMC: THE DRONES DOCK BACK ONTO THE SUIT! Nifty. What a workable, elegant, and obvious solution. This gives me hope that the GW might finally getting good at writing rules. Too optimistic?
I also love how the reactions on the new units from old Tau players are "hmm, that's interesting, I'm going to start thinking of ways to make this work with my army" and from the new Tau players it seems to be "I CAN'T JUST SPAM IT ON THE TABLE AND KILL EVERYTHING?!?!? WAAAAAAA! I HATE YOU GW!"
Looks like we're going to have a fun, well balanced, codex and lots of cheap Tau second hand. Good time to play for the greater good.
How exactly is it lacking the good FMC rules? Fear and smash are worthless because you're Tau, and vector strike is marginal because you don't want to be so close to your targets. But you do get hard to hit and the movement distance, which I'd say are much better rules for Tau.
How exactly is it lacking the good FMC rules? Fear and smash are worthless because you're Tau, and vector strike is marginal because you don't want to be so close to your targets. But you do get hard to hit and the movement distance, which I'd say are much better rules for Tau.
In addition, they very thematically fit for a suit that is meant for void combat.
SinisterSamurai wrote: I want to preface this next post: The source does not remember the points cost, and apparently doesn't have any info beyond these shots.
Gamgee wrote: Right but it puts out so much more dakka it's not even comparable. I don't need two units with that role. And if I did I would just fly 2 Y'vahrah.
And if it turns out that a high-yield burst cannon is basically a Nova-charge profile without the Gets Hot (R36"S6AP4 Heavy12 rending)?
I would still prefer the Y'vahrah and Riptide combo. Duh. However it would be viable at that point.
I agree we don't know its stats on its burst cannon, but I doubt it would be that impressive.
How exactly is it lacking the good FMC rules? Fear and smash are worthless because you're Tau, and vector strike is marginal because you don't want to be so close to your targets. But you do get hard to hit and the movement distance, which I'd say are much better rules for Tau.
In addition, they very thematically fit for a suit that is meant for void combat.
Except for the kinetic weapons that would send the crisis suit flying in the other direction when that burst weapon lets it rip without wasting fuel on stabilization. I'd say an energy weapon would thematically much better for a "space" suit.
In your opinion. I've often had the Commander in combat. Sometimes it's unavoidable due to bad jump rolls vs an enemy rolling a good assault distance. Sometimes it's necessary to lock up an enemy unit that's more dangerous in shooting, or wipe out the last wound or two of a squad.
If Tau are the anime army, the commander rushing into combat to duel the enemy is pretty common in anime.
I don't want my HQ doing dumb things on the front lines where it might get killed and given a point to the enemy. Even more so if its on its own.
Woopdie do the Coldstar Commander can do all those things, but he has better things to be doing in my list (Buffmander ect) then being a poor man's Y'vahrah/Riptide mishmash.
Edit
The loss of smash is a big blow to it. I don't want to be in melee but if I do get tied up with something light smash is going to help. It's just a little extra utility cut out of FMC's rules/this things viability. Is it a game changer? No, but it has come in handy. Do I ever expect to use a knife in a gunfight in real life? Hell no, but I bring one just in case.
How exactly is it lacking the good FMC rules? Fear and smash are worthless because you're Tau, and vector strike is marginal because you don't want to be so close to your targets. But you do get hard to hit and the movement distance, which I'd say are much better rules for Tau.
In addition, they very thematically fit for a suit that is meant for void combat.
Except for the kinetic weapons that would send the crisis suit flying in the other direction when that burst weapon lets it rip without wasting fuel on stabilization. I'd say an energy weapon would thematically much better for a "space" suit.
Ever fired a missile or rocket? No recoil if the launcher is designed right, as the gases just escape out the back of the launcher tube. Burst cannons... well, just maybe don't use that until your feet are mag-locked onto a space-hulks outer hull, or correct with jets afterward. Which the ColdStar clearly can, because its jets are good enough to make it a FMC.
Frankly, a Fusion cutter sort of weapon seems like a no-brainer for a void-capable battlesuit, given they'll need some way to get into their targets (and I don't think a bog-standard MP is going to scratch an Imperium vessel's paint, let alone hull).
It's stuck with only its new burst gun and a missile pod. Can't change it's weapons from what we can see.
You would think fusion weaponry of some kind would make sense as you point out, but then again this is GW. I'm mostly unimpressed by the new Tau stuff so far. Barring the XV95 that is, and I can always hope the formations are good.
A lot of people seem to be overlooking the price of the guns in the coldstar, you are not just paying for FMC you are also getting 30+points worth of guns too (I'm assuming the souped up burst cannon is worth more than the regular). As peregrine has said, the best part of being a FMC is being immune to close combat, increased speed, and of course only being snapshot (making you immune to blasts and templates). It's definitely worth the cost.
Didnt even notice the Coldstar commander had no weapon variation options. Thats annoying. I'd rather have a Plasma instead of Bursts. Willing to bet that burst is just higher RoF, same otherwise.
Also to the people saying one failed grounding test hes toast - youre forgetting in 7th they DID actually make that rule a lot less painful. They just shafted assaulting FMCs, while non-assaulty FMCs got buffed quite nicely.
Personally, I see the Coldstar as a second HQ choice. Run a standard Commander as a Mark'O or a buffmander, and use the Coldstar as a harassment unit. A FMC battlesuit, even with a MP and a super BC would be extremely useful, especially when you add a Shield Generator and Stim Injector (plus signature systems like Iridium armor if we can). And that's not counting any kind of formation we get using a Coldstar (Coldstar with a homing beacon plus deepstriking Crisis Suits anyone?)
As a solo HQ choice? Outside of low points games, maybe not, the Coldstar is blatantly an offensive harassment unit. As a second HQ choice or through the Tau decurion? Abso-freaking-lutely, this guy is gonna have a place in my lists, both CAD and (hopefully) Decurion.
vitae_drinker wrote: In your opinion. I've often had the Commander in combat. Sometimes it's unavoidable due to bad jump rolls vs an enemy rolling a good assault distance. Sometimes it's necessary to lock up an enemy unit that's more dangerous in shooting, or wipe out the last wound or two of a squad.
It's an FMC. You have to get into a position to charge AND have it fail the grounding roll before you can charge it.
If Tau are the anime army, the commander rushing into combat to duel the enemy is pretty common in anime.
Tau are not just an anime army. They do NOT need idiotic anime cliches about melee combat with giant robots.
GI_Redshirt wrote:Personally, I see the Coldstar as a second HQ choice. Run a standard Commander as a Mark'O or a buffmander, and use the Coldstar as a harassment unit. A FMC battlesuit, even with a MP and a super BC would be extremely useful, especially when you add a Shield Generator and Stim Injector (plus signature systems like Iridium armor if we can). ....
Actually we already know we cant do that. Unless they change it, its access to signature systems are revoked with the Coldstar suit because it lists off all of its options over again except signature systems and only 2 support since it has stock weapons. Which blows, admittedly.
vitae_drinker wrote: Burst cannons are energy weapons, guys. They're pulse Gatling weapons.
Nevermind then. Thanks for the correction.
Ehhhh, they fire plasma. Lots of high velocity, low mass, not-as-hot, plasma rounds. Pulse gattling guns it a great description.
Thing is, EVERYTHING will impart reactive forces onto the the firer. Lasers, beams of fusion exhaust, etc. Missiles would be less so, but the stream of propellants is likely to still hit the firer when expanding out the back, imparting some energy.
It would be nice if there were weapon options. But eh. I'll take the FMC hard to hit.
1) Lacking previously mentioned rules.
2) It will be instakilled on a failed grounding test if doesn't have a shield or Coldstar suit gives it +1 toughness.
3) it does gain jink, which is not bad, though questionably useful.
4) fixed weapon options.
vitae_drinker wrote: Burst cannons are energy weapons, guys. They're pulse Gatling weapons.
Nevermind then. Thanks for the correction.
Ehhhh, they fire plasma. Lots of high velocity, low mass, not-as-hot, plasma rounds. Pulse gattling guns it a great description.
Thing is, EVERYTHING will impart reactive forces onto the the firer. Lasers, beams of fusion exhaust, etc. Missiles would be less so, but the stream of propellants is likely to still hit the firer when expanding out the back, imparting some energy.
It would be nice if there were weapon options. But eh. I'll take the FMC hard to hit.
Yes, but the thrust of a directed energy weapon is so minor as to be ignorable in most instances. It's about the effect of an ion thruster. Lol
GI_Redshirt wrote:Personally, I see the Coldstar as a second HQ choice. Run a standard Commander as a Mark'O or a buffmander, and use the Coldstar as a harassment unit. A FMC battlesuit, even with a MP and a super BC would be extremely useful, especially when you add a Shield Generator and Stim Injector (plus signature systems like Iridium armor if we can). ....
Actually we already know we cant do that. Unless they change it, its access to signature systems are revoked with the Coldstar suit because it lists off all of its options over again except signature systems and only 2 support since it has stock weapons.
Which blows, admittedly.
Well, that's upsetting. Doesn't change my opinion on it though. This guy is a harassment unit, hunting troops units and light vehicles while scaring your opponent. You say FMC, any opponent is gonna focus it down immediately. At the very least, as a second HQ choice, it will draw some fire that it can avoid using swooping and jink, plus support systems. This guy will have his uses, while he may not be warlord material, I can definitely make use of this guy, if not else than for fun.
And I'd just like to point out that we have no idea what the signature systems are. Some of the current ones might be normal systems now, or not exist at all. And who knows if the new ones will be as big a deal as the current ones.
Oh definitely. I play for fun more than anything else, which is why i dont spam riptides and i tend to use Piranhas alot.
Unless he becomes such complete trash at damn near 200pts with a shield-gen/stims (assuming 85pts base still like in current dex), i'll definitely field him a lot. Its funny as hell, and if i can add a squad of Coldstar Crisis suits to him without costing a third of my army to do it, hes not going alone lol.
Which reminds me....assuming of course non-commander Coldstars are FMCs in the same fashion, what happens to a squad of Swooping FMCs when they need to grounding test? Is it a squad-wide thing on a single roll, or is the one that got wounded grounded on his own and potentially singled-out for a charge?
Is there any evidence to think the Coldstar can be brought in squads? There's only one set of decals on the sheet vs 3 for crisis suits.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thinking about it, I bet Iridium is gone. Coldstar is the replacement. Probably +1T and 2+ armor save, plus the changes noted in the data sheet pic.
Vineheart01 wrote: Oh definitely. I play for fun more than anything else, which is why i dont spam riptides and i tend to use Piranhas alot.
Unless he becomes such complete trash at damn near 200pts with a shield-gen/stims (assuming 85pts base still like in current dex), i'll definitely field him a lot. Its funny as hell, and if i can add a squad of Coldstar Crisis suits to him without costing a third of my army to do it, hes not going alone lol.
Which reminds me....assuming of course non-commander Coldstars are FMCs in the same fashion, what happens to a squad of Swooping FMCs when they need to grounding test? Is it a squad-wide thing on a single roll, or is the one that got wounded grounded on his own and potentially singled-out for a charge?
Well, 1) obviously you play for fun, you play orks!
2) It doesn't look like there will be options for non-commander ColdStars. Hope I'm wrong.
3) That has never come up, because there are no squads of FMCs, as far as I know. That and the Stormsurge splitting fire at different targets per GMC rules will be an interesting interaction.
I imagine the non-commander coldstars, if they exist, will be either formation specific, listed with crisis suits like the commander is (which we havent seen yet), or an entirely separate unit in the datasheets.
I could totally see them being FA if they have FMC rules....
Can coldstar really not take any signature system? Isn't it a similar situation with a command squads apothecary? And I do believe ITC let the apothecary take upgrades (my flgs plays ITC format).
The way its written right now shows its a separate options list if you take the coldstar suit, since it repeats all options except signature access and 2 supps instead of 4 weap/supps slots. If all it said was the support slots since it already has 2 guns, i wouldnt believe it cant take signatures since that could be chocked off as automatically using 2 of his slots up. But it lists his drones again, for no reason other than indicating no signature systems allowed.
Admittedly with the current signature systems, not a big deal since the only ones we actually care about are buffmander ones. I wouldnt be caught dead giving him my Iridium when my missilepod crisis suit team pretty much only stays alive because of Commander Buffy standing infront of them being a tank lol.
vitae_drinker wrote: Burst cannons are energy weapons, guys. They're pulse Gatling weapons.
Nevermind then. Thanks for the correction.
Ehhhh, they fire plasma. Lots of high velocity, low mass, not-as-hot, plasma rounds. Pulse gattling guns it a great description.
Thing is, EVERYTHING will impart reactive forces onto the the firer. Lasers, beams of fusion exhaust, etc. Missiles would be less so, but the stream of propellants is likely to still hit the firer when expanding out the back, imparting some energy.
It would be nice if there were weapon options. But eh. I'll take the FMC hard to hit.
Still, pulse weaponry has so little kick that it's only there at all on burst cannons (simply because of their high RoF), and even then it's easily manageable by normal tau. I'm sure they could program it in for their thursters to auto-correct if the need arises.
If Coldstar had vector strike, it would be an auto take for me. Since it doesn't, I'm on the fence. Maybe it'll get a signature system or something to make it better.
Smash makes your normal melee hits AP2, this is pretty useful (I did this wrong in my last game and my riptide failed at killing 2 orcs due to their 6+ armor save ).
I can see some kind of very mobile high risk/reward tactics coming out with the cold star, also the fact that breachers and the stormsurge need to be dangerously close to punch the hardest is an interesting direction coming from a typically far-off gunline army
I think GW are trying to make tau get some exercise
Matt.Kingsley wrote: If you're trying to assault things with a Coldstar you aren't playing right. Even with Smash it would die to basically any unit worth anything.
This. Play it like a Flyrant, jumping around the board taking pot shots at any units or light vehicles you can. An MP is 2 S7 AP 4 shots, and the high output BC has to be better than the normal BC, which means better than 4 S5 AP5 shots. For an FMC, that's not bad for hunting troops and non 2+ or invul protected units.
I really like the new releases so far, they seem balanced and will allow a lot of cool and interesting new tactics which is awesome. I'm the guy who never plays Riptides so new balanced suits make me happy!
But then again, we haven't seen the new codex so we can't rule out powerful synergies or new rules that will make the new Tau OP...
Zelnik wrote: Have any of you noticed that there is no option for a crisis bodyguard team for the commander?
To be fair, the bodyguard team isn't just for the commander but anyone designated as a commander (Shadowsun and Farsight to be specific), so they might not have listed it as it's a unit in itself as opposed to something specifically dedicated to the commander. So while it's a Commander retinue, it's listed as general wargear and as such listed separately, like all the weapons are.
Kahnawake wrote: I really like the new releases so far, they seem balanced and will allow a lot of cool and interesting new tactics which is awesome. I'm the guy who never plays Riptides so new balanced suits make me happy!
But then again, we haven't seen the new codex so we can't rule out powerful synergies or new rules that will make the new Tau OP...
Kahnawake
I love the Riptide, but the Ghostkeel is a close second D:
I am waiting for full rules before anything is purchased. I can see myself kitting up for as many as two teams of Ghostkeels (I will likely magnetize and just get a single team), a Ta'unar and some of those super-sexy firewarriors
I actually legitimately don't understand the criticisms against the Coldstar' rules.
Why on earth would you ever want a Commander in combat if he doesn't have the Onager Gauntlet or the Fusion fist thing from Farsight Enclaves? His melee stats aren't awful and he would be a decent melee unit with Smash but at best it would mean he can maybe do some damage to a vehicle or fight weaker units in combat. However, none of that changes the fact that the current Flying Monstrous Creature rules PENALIZE close combat which is something none of you have brought up yet. FMCs have to wait a turn after landing to charge, or charge on the turn after they fail a grounding test....but in most cases, especially with the ranged FMCs like Fateweaver and Flying Hive Tyrants, you want to be back in the air anyway. The only legitimately competitive melee-oriented FMCs are D-Bloodthirsters and Nurgle Daemon Princes, the former because you get two-three of them for free in a KDK game and the latter because he has the durability and damage output to make him worthwhile. The best FMCs in the game - notably Flying Hive Tyrants and Fateweaver - almost never want to get into close combat because being a FMC with two or more ranged weapons/psychic attacks is awesome as most people have worked out. Now, I'm not saying a Coldstar is as good as either of those two but to say he sucks because he loses Smash is actually downright stupid.
Not only that, who the hell cares about Fear? People are seriously complaining about the loss of Fear as well? It is the most useless rule in Warhammer 40,000 bar none and it would make absolutely no difference to a Coldstar. As for Vector Strike, a Strength 5 Vector Strike is really not that great as any Tyranid player will tell you (Harpies, Hive Crones, etc) as it struggles to hurt most flyers/vehicles and you generally aren't using FMCs to hunt infantry. Besides, sacrificing a Ballistic Skill 5 Missile Pod and presumably at the very least a 5-shot Burst Cannon generally won't be worth it if there are any vehicles on the field. So basically, you guys are complaining about the Coldstar losing three rules that, in most games, you would never use or even really benefit from. You want this guy to stay in the air and keep shooting like a Flying Hive Tyrant as staying on the ground even to try and "slingshot" out of combat in your opponents turn with a Tau unit is a gamble that won't pay off in almost every situation. Basically, you are paying for the actual....you know, real benefits of being a FMC, not the situational ones you would never use anyway. How is this in any way a bad thing if you actually look at how people use the shooting-oriented FMCs?
I also would like to point out something that hasn't been mentioned yet; the utility of having an anti-air unit in your HQ slot (and we know this is a HQ because it is an upgrade to the Commander) is actually really darned good. This means you don't have to worry about taking Velocity Trackers in your army as a precaution (usually you see at least one or two units with them in competitive lists as unlike other armies' you don't lost anything for using them as they provide optional Skyfire) and this will thus save you points elsewhere, while you can replace current Commanders with the Coldstar and thus probably end up ahead on points than you were before. You can take a Coldstar to fit your mandatory HQ slot in a CAD - which is great when taking smaller CADs as part of a larger force because he needs no support - and keep him hidden or flying around in a good spot where opposing flyers won't be able to fire at him when they enter play. You then move into the open once they arrive and proceed to shoot at them with your Strength 7 gun and presumably Strength 5 five-shot gun (if we assume at worst that the super burst cannon is just a burst cannon with an extra shot), something that is made really darn good by the fact that non-vehicle units have 360 degree line-of-sight for firing their weapons - another massive benefit you people haven't mentioned, making shooting at the side or rear armour of vehicles exceptionally easy. . Unlike the Vector Strike at Strength 5, a mass of Strength 5 shots at Ballistic Skill 5 will actually be enough to inflict a hull point or two of damage onto any AV11-AV10 flyer, while a Ballistic Skill 5 Missile Pod is similarly very good against pretty much all non-AV12 flyers.
When you consider the current cost of taking a Velocity Tracker, Missile Pod and we will say a 15 point weapon to cover the super Burst Cannon, you get a 130 point Commander. The Coldstar pays 10 points (if we assume the basic Commander price didn't change the Coldstar will be 140 points) to get Hard to Hit (meaning people hit the damn thing on 6s without Skyfire, but how many armies take actual Skyfire these days in competitive environments?), the Gliding and Swooping movement profiles of a Flying Monstrous Creature meaning you can easily get to where you need to be to shoot your weapons at the most effective target for them while still keeping a good range as necessary, and the Jink rule. While Jink might seem like a bad rule for the Coldstar, unlike the melee rules there will actually be numerous reasons to make use of Jink provided you don't take a Shield Generator - saving a units' bacon is almost always worth sacrificing a turn of shooting as any Tyranid player will tell you, rather than throwing its life away in a combat because you somehow think a Tau FMC should be in combat (seriously, do people think about what they write?). If you Jink and survive, you can easily hide a Coldstar (it might be big but it's nowhere near as big as a flyer and doesn't have the elevation of a flying stand) out of sight and get back into the fray on the next turn to shoot at full efficiency. Not to mention the BIG one, if Markerlights stay the same and let you increase the Ballistic Skill of Snap Shots you can make the penalties for Jinking completely irrelevant by merely increasing his Ballistic Skill.
Also, I'd like to point out that until we know the actual stats of the Burst Cannon, even if we assume that gun is better than a regular Burst Cannon (which it will be) by a slight amount this thing is still a better anti-air unit than either of the current Tau flyers. Why? Similar weapons, Ballistic Skill 5 and the ability to shoot 360 degrees with much less restrictive movement. Yes, the Tau flyers (aside from the Forge World ones) suck but the Coldstar has more utility than them; depending on what defensive stats it gains (if any) from a Coldstar, it could very well be much harder to kill than either of the plastic flyers for Tau. If it doesn't get any defensive boosts the only real problem will be Grounding Tests due to Strength 9 inflicting Instant Death on a Toughness 4 model, but seeing as you only fail on a 1-2 rolled once per phase it takes an unsaved wound in, Grounding Tests aren't going to be common at all anyway. Honestly, if the super Burst Cannon ends up being four Strength 6 shots instead of the usual four Strength 5 shots - assuming the buff is as "minor" as that - this thing will be instantly worthwhile and actually compete with a Barracuda for dedicated anti-air duties in a Tau list. Regardless, I think people are under-selling the potential of its firepower combined with the FMC rules as it is; it might not be twelve twin-linked Strength 6 shots at Ballistic Skill 4, but it is instead at the very least two Strength 7 shots at Ballistic Skill 5 plus (at worst) four Strength 6 shots or six Strength 5 shots at Ballistic Skill 5. Flying Hive Tyrants are considered to be a top-tier unit that almost solely props Tyranids up in competitive play, are they not? This thing is 90 points cheaper assuming the Commander price hasn't changed, and while it still doesn't compare very well it at least has its place. A 140 point FMC with this firepower is not at all bad, in fact you should ask a Tyranid player what they think of it next to a Harpy in the context of not being able to use a Flying Hive Tyrant and they will probably call you crazy for not liking it.
I guess I just don't understand. If you want to fill up the mandatory CAD choices with the most self-sufficient choices, the Coldstar is the most obvious HQ choice we have right now, and that's before we've even seen what the super Burst Cannon is or what defensive stats it gains.
Well, if it had Vector Strike, it would actually be able to make use of it's multi-tracker, since normally the strike counts against it's two weapon uses. Even if it's taking you close, an excuse to use one of the systems you're equipped with automatically would be nice.
Unless Multi-trackers let you fire one weapon an extra time, or has finally had its effect switched with Target Lock. It always annoyed me that those two were backwards. Like Markerlights and Networked markerlights.
This reminds me of a Stormsurge actually. It's a finely balanced unit for its points all things considered. The fact that this translates to "the codex will be Don't bypass the languuge filter like this. Reds8n for a lot of people is just beyond stupid seeing as none of the units leaked thus far are bad in any way (at worst, Breachers might be bad if Devilfishes suck). Just because the new units aren't point-and-click doesn't make them bad, nor does the new units' rules have any bearing on the existing units. People jump to so many damned silly conclusions it is almost laughable. What we've seen already shows us this codex will still be way ahead of Dark Eldar/Grey Knights/Blood Angels/Orks and at least on par with the Necron and post-Necron codices outside of the few ridiculous units each of those books has.
@SinisterSamurai
That's actually a good point that I didn't think of, but I don't think losing a Strength 5 Vector Strike on a unit that has long range guns and doesn't want to be close to enemies is really that big of a deal. That's another point I want to make; unless the Burst Cannon is 18" like current ones (no clue here as it is an entirely new weapon), the Commander can shoot from 36" away unless Missile Pods got changed. I can't think of any ranged FMC in the game that can operate at that kind of range.
If you don't understand why people are apprehensive, let me try to sum it up.
Tau really enjoy being able to kit their commanders out for what they need and this guy comes with preselected weapons. You can say the weapons are good or the combination is good, but it still takes away the players choice in the matter.
Since he gets FMC rules that means he can't really join units and bringing drones seems a bit iffy (though I can see the point in taking them). This is just something that again feels restrictive for little gain. We get an anti-air unit. Great. Except the Skyrays, Broadsides, and fighter are supposed to be covering those areas. Not that extra isn't good, but it makes you wonder if those will be nerfed or left useless to make this seem more of a necessity.
Personally I think it's pretty good. The missiles will be reasonably able to get a lot of side/rear armor shots. The burst cannon I can't really say but hope it will be good.
The short story is that Tau is very heavy into synergy and balance. Teasing by showing a unit every few days does not really do well because we need to see the big picture to really see how useful they will be. Breachers are a great example. Until we see the devilfish, we don't know how well they can be deployed.
Savageconvoy wrote: If you don't understand why people are apprehensive, let me try to sum it up.
Tau really enjoy being able to kit their commanders out for what they need and this guy comes with preselected weapons. You can say the weapons are good or the combination is good, but it still takes away the players choice in the matter.
Since he gets FMC rules that means he can't really join units and bringing drones seems a bit iffy (though I can see the point in taking them). This is just something that again feels restrictive for little gain. We get an anti-air unit. Great. Except the Skyrays, Broadsides, and fighter are supposed to be covering those areas. Not that extra isn't good, but it makes you wonder if those will be nerfed or left useless to make this seem more of a necessity.
Personally I think it's pretty good. The missiles will be reasonably able to get a lot of side/rear armor shots. The burst cannon I can't really say but hope it will be good.
The short story is that Tau is very heavy into synergy and balance. Teasing by showing a unit every few days does not really do well because we need to see the big picture to really see how useful they will be. Breachers are a great example. Until we see the devilfish, we don't know how well they can be deployed.
If the Burst Cannon is decent he will already be ideally equipped for air hunting anyway though, so for actual in-game terms this isn't a problem unless you wanted to use a suicidal fusion-suit in the air (which would be over-powered as he could move 24", shoot 2 BS5 S8 AP1 Melta shots and likely pop an AV14 vehicle in one go). But I do agree the loss of customization sucks.
Actually joining units and leaving units works just fine for the Coldstar. He can deploy with a unit as he doesn't lose the Independent Character special rule, then in his movement phase he can declare he is switching to Swooping mode and leave the unit. I might be wrong on this but I don't see a problem here, if it works as I believe it does then that means he is very easy to protect before he launches into the air. To clarify, there's nothing restricting an Independent Character Monstrous Creature from joining units, only that Independent Characters can't join units that contain vehicles or monstrous creatures (meaning Coldstars can't join each other). This is why O'Vesa is still able to join units but can't join other Riptides.
I probably wouldn't bother with the Drones given that as I've pointed out above the Coldstar should rarely be on the ground. Skyrays are anti-air units in name only, most often they are used to obliterate a target on the first turn before the target can do anything - this can be anything from a Wave Serpent to a Toxicrene. The Networked Markerlights are the real anti-air "tools" for the Skyray in that sense, though with the Coldstar they won't be as necessary or they can be used to give Ignores Cover (unless that changes obviously). Taking a Coldstar means filling your mandatory HQ choice and thus potentially replacing the single HQ choice of previous army lists, and it also means you don't have to pay for Velocity Trackers (which are super expensive) on any of your other units. The fighter functionally is pretty poor because of the way its turret is positioned regardless of how it gets buffed, it has to be beside or behind a flyer to actually be able to even see it with the turret.
Considering we know what a Long-Barreled Burst Cannon does and this one is called a "High Output Burst Cannon" I'm guessing it's as good or better than the Long-Barreled Burst Cannon, but we can only hope. Even if it just five Strength 5 AP5 shots it will still make him a good anti-air unit.
You raise some good points that make me understand some of the criticism, but mostly the ones I don't understand are those talking about it not being that good of a unit. It's most definitely at worst another fine unit until we see what else the Coldstar suit itself does or what the Burst Cannon does. Honestly I'm just sick of the people that keep saying the units suck - when we've figured out that they don't (we don't know about Breachers yet of course) - and are then saying the codex will be weak by extension, even though the new units almost never have any bearing on what a codex will be like. If the codex remains similar to what it was but with the new units added, it will be a strong codex made better by nature of having more options. I'm just disappointed that so many posters are dismissing the codex already or have set their expectations so low when they really have no reason to, especially as formations/detachments are what make these codices (Eldar aside) so darned good.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another thing worth mentioning; this is a great unit for taking objectives. You can swap to Glide at any time and grab an objective as necessary, a really awesome tactic for Eternal War missions especially. Sure, other codices have better ones but currently Tau don't have anything like this aside from maybe the Y'Vahra.
That's exactly right and it makes the Coldstar better than I initially thought as he can hide in a unit before taking off, meaning it is much harder to stop him from getting into the air.
Caederes wrote: This reminds me of a Stormsurge actually. It's a finely balanced unit for its points all things considered. The fact that this translates to "the codex will be Don't bypass the languuge filter like this. Reds8n for a lot of people is just beyond stupid seeing as none of the units leaked thus far are bad in any way (at worst, Breachers might be bad if Devilfishes suck). Just because the new units aren't point-and-click doesn't make them bad, nor does the new units' rules have any bearing on the existing units. People jump to so many damned silly conclusions it is almost laughable. What we've seen already shows us this codex will still be way ahead of Dark Eldar/Grey Knights/Blood Angels/Orks and at least on par with the Necron and post-Necron codices outside of the few ridiculous units each of those books has.
@SinisterSamurai
That's actually a good point that I didn't think of, but I don't think losing a Strength 5 Vector Strike on a unit that has long range guns and doesn't want to be close to enemies is really that big of a deal. That's another point I want to make; unless the Burst Cannon is 18" like current ones (no clue here as it is an entirely new weapon), the Commander can shoot from 36" away unless Missile Pods got changed. I can't think of any ranged FMC in the game that can operate at that kind of range.
Exactly - given the power of the units already shown and the weakness's of many codex they will have to fight (or rather slaughter) its a bit much really.
But I guess people just want the same OPness of Eldar - cos that helped the game so much.
Vineheart01 wrote: And yes, its purple. Nobody does purple and it looks good on Tau especially with the green/white so i went with it lol. Also it serves as a side-joke on Japanese culture since Tau are obviously anime based in some way - purple is the color of death for them lol.
You... might want to check your sources ^_^. There's a reason why the purple is called "Imperial Purple" over there (it's traditionally linked with the Emperor and the aristocracy). The actual color of death (well, mourning and pilgrims) in Japan and a lot of other asian cultures is white.
GI_Redshirt wrote:Personally, I see the Coldstar as a second HQ choice. Run a standard Commander as a Mark'O or a buffmander, and use the Coldstar as a harassment unit. A FMC battlesuit, even with a MP and a super BC would be extremely useful, especially when you add a Shield Generator and Stim Injector (plus signature systems like Iridium armor if we can). ....
Actually we already know we cant do that. Unless they change it, its access to signature systems are revoked with the Coldstar suit because it lists off all of its options over again except signature systems and only 2 support since it has stock weapons.
Which blows, admittedly.
Sorry if this is a bit too derp RAW, but it never revokes the permissions for what the commander can take. It is fairly obvious that it is suppose to, however it lists each option independently.
*Permission to take four items from ranged and/or support.
*Permission to take signature systems.
*Permission to take up to two drones.
*Option to replace Crisis suit (not enforcer?) with Coldstar and has HO BC and Missile Pod.
*Permission for Coldstar to take two items from support and up to two drones.
I really hope this is just an oversight from the White Dwarf version and the Codex version contains a restriction from taking other options in the Coldstar upgrade.
It seems clear to me that it can only take the two Support Systems and two Drones, not that I think any of the current Signature Systems would actually improve it (assuming you use it in the air where it belongs) aside from Iridium Armour.
Christ, how difficult is it to take a photograph? lol. Also, interesting that the Coldstar suit has FMC but no Fear, Smash or Vector Strike additional rules for being one.
I think it's because it acts like an FMC but doesn't really have the mass to do things like cause fear, smash targets, or vector strike into things without blowing up itself haha
I like the fact that Breachers, ColdStar (and probably somebody else) have ability to 'forget' their drones, missile turret etc. on the field...
And when they land again, they just have them back!
It will create a havoc on the field! Enemies of the Greater Good will never stand a chance!
Assuming the shield generator and commander stay the same points wise, it's 170 for a flying commander with whatever the highoutput burst cannon is and a missile pod. Well, 145 without, but why wouldn't you take a 4++ on your fragile T4 commander?
Crazyterran wrote: Assuming the shield generator and commander stay the same points wise, it's 170 for a flying commander with whatever the highoutput burst cannon is and a missile pod. Well, 145 without, but why wouldn't you take a 4++ on your fragile T4 commander?
Why spend 170p on it? For +10p I field a Riptide, or a complete MP unit of Crisis.
Crazyterran wrote: Assuming the shield generator and commander stay the same points wise, it's 170 for a flying commander with whatever the highoutput burst cannon is and a missile pod. Well, 145 without, but why wouldn't you take a 4++ on your fragile T4 commander?
Why spend 170p on it? For +10p I field a Riptide, or a complete MP unit of Crisis.
It makes sense that you lose smash, fear and vector. Those are things associated with monstrous creatures. The suit is literally not that big. Its size doesn't strike fear, it doesn't have the weight and strength to rip through armor with its bare hands. Its fluffy that it loses those things. But it gains the movement and defense benefits of being a flyer.
Getting Swoop for 25pts* is a pretty good deal imo.
*Assuming that missile pods remain 15pts and the HOBC is roughly 20 (given that a regular BC is 10)
On a different note - you know you can express mild opinions, right? Everything doesn't have to 'totally suck' or be a 'joke', you can just say you don't like it and list the reasons why. Hyperbole just makes people disinclined to seriously consider what you have to say.
Crazyterran wrote: Assuming the shield generator and commander stay the same points wise, it's 170 for a flying commander with whatever the highoutput burst cannon is and a missile pod. Well, 145 without, but why wouldn't you take a 4++ on your fragile T4 commander?
Why spend 170p on it? For +10p I field a Riptide, or a complete MP unit of Crisis.
Crazyterran wrote: Assuming the shield generator and commander stay the same points wise, it's 170 for a flying commander with whatever the highoutput burst cannon is and a missile pod. Well, 145 without, but why wouldn't you take a 4++ on your fragile T4 commander?
Why spend 170p on it? For +10p I field a Riptide, or a complete MP unit of Crisis.
Riptide points are not known at this time - they may be more (or even less!).
Most Dark Eldar Players had bought multiple Ravagers - screwed over in the new codex and guess what most Tau players have bought Riptides. It seems with GW that they like extremes so the Riptide will likely be made overpriced or more overpowered like Wraith Kinghts,
T4 is not that bad - lots of non Marine factions have T3 to contend with.
The partial FMC rules are a good fit - well for as long as they keep using MC rules for non MCs
Crazyterran wrote: Assuming the shield generator and commander stay the same points wise, it's 170 for a flying commander with whatever the highoutput burst cannon is and a missile pod. Well, 145 without, but why wouldn't you take a 4++ on your fragile T4 commander?
Why spend 170p on it? For +10p I field a Riptide, or a complete MP unit of Crisis.
The riptide might get nerfed, and even if it doesn't, it's generally considered undercosted (the IA version anyway). Compared to a squad of pure missile crisis suits, you are immune to blasts, templates and assaults, can only be hit on 6's by 90%+ guns in the game, have a far greater degree of speed and can skyfire. Admittedly if the high output burst cannon is only a burst cannon with 1 more shot it will be leaning on underpowered, but if its an assault 6 burst cannon with rending (or something else equally powerful), it will be a versatile little unit capable of threatening most units on the ground or in the skies. We'll have to wait and see what the high output burst cannon does and what, if any, formation bonuses this gets. The sky isn't falling just yet.
chalkobob wrote: Compared to a squad of pure missile crisis suits, you are immune to blasts, templates and assaults, can only be hit on 6's by 90%+ guns in the game, have a far greater degree of speed and can skyfire.
As my brother puts it, for his Orks there is not much difference between hitting on a 6 or a 5. It would still only take 1 str 8 AP3 hit to take out your commander :(, although I suppose you can jink now, but I'd rather have my 2+ save than 4+ and 50% less hits (in the case of Orks, when not twinlinking cause for deffkopta's its only 25%).
As with all things we have seen so far, its pretty meh on its own/with what we know, but we'll have to see what the codex brings in order to render final judgement.
Mr Morden wrote:
T4 is not that bad - lots of non Marine factions have T3 to contend with.
The partial FMC rules are a good fit - well for as long as they keep using MC rules for non MCs
But there is no FMC with T4 or less, currently. All you need is 1 failed Grounded test.
chalkobob wrote:
The riptide might get nerfed, and even if it doesn't, it's generally considered undercosted (the IA version anyway). Compared to a squad of pure missile crisis suits, you are immune to blasts, templates and assaults, can only be hit on 6's by 90%+ guns in the game, have a far greater degree of speed and can skyfire. Admittedly if the high output burst cannon is only a burst cannon with 1 more shot it will be leaning on underpowered, but if its an assault 6 burst cannon with rending (or something else equally powerful), it will be a versatile little unit capable of threatening most units on the ground or in the skies. We'll have to wait and see what the high output burst cannon does and what, if any, formation bonuses this gets. The sky isn't falling just yet.
FMCs aren't immune to those, as long as the shooter has Skyfire. Only Flyers are immune to those.
As you said, if the HOBC is a good weapon, I'll field one just for the kicks of it. If it isn't..., well, I can find Skyfire somewhere else.
@ MoD_Legion: Well yeah, but basically every other army in the game does care about snapshots.
Not to mention only 3 units in the Ork codex can spam non-blast S8 AP2/3 weapons, and all of them aren't that tough.
Assuming the shield generator remains that same, ~420pts of Deffkoptas are required to kill a Coldstar w/ shield in a single turn if my maths are correct. That's 3 FA slots btw, and all those shots would be better spent on normal crisis suits.
chalkobob wrote: Compared to a squad of pure missile crisis suits, you are immune to blasts, templates and assaults, can only be hit on 6's by 90%+ guns in the game, have a far greater degree of speed and can skyfire.
As my brother puts it, for his Orks there is not much difference between hitting on a 6 or a 5. It would still only take 1 str 8 AP3 hit to take out your commander :(, although I suppose you can jink now, but I'd rather have my 2+ save than 4+ and 50% less hits (in the case of Orks, when not twinlinking cause for deffkopta's its only 25%).
As with all things we have seen so far, its pretty meh on its own/with what we know, but we'll have to see what the codex brings in order to render final judgement.
Orks have a hard enough time against Tau that I don't really mind them being able to kill this one unit efficiently. It still will probably be an uphill battle for Orks anyway.
You know, thinking about the ColdStar, I have a pretty major thought: is that bonding knife in the picture modeled on the jetpack already? I hope not, there are much better places for it.
Oh man.. I feel the need to get a Coldstar Commander and model it on top of some imperial building like it's flying over it. Even if I'm not going to play Tau this just needs to happen!
SaJeel wrote: Its obvious that the Coldstar cant take Signature systems
I'm not sure its obvious one way or the other. Formatting the options through indentations would certainly have made it more obvious. from the words on the page I'd say it can't, though I'm not sure if that holds if there is any text in the signature systems codex section that discerns if Signiture systems replace weapon/system hardpoints.
Rule-wise, I think the Coldstar is just fine.... it's not a no-brainer choice one way or the other. I honestly don't want EVERY Tau player wanting to field it, because then it takes away from the uniqeness of MY army.
Personally, I can definately make the ColdStar work for me on the tabletop, and I'm already in the process of Scratchbuilding my own! I feel lucky that a "House rules" model I was building actually got official rules it could use!
I'm keen to know what the High output Burst Cannon is. Burst Cannon with Assault 6 is my best guess. Burst Cannonwith Rending would my my wishlist, but unlikely given the adjective promoting volume over velocity.
May take ranged weapons and support systems.
May take signature systems.
Alternatively, may take a Coldstar with x weapons.
If so, may also take support systems.
Full stop. The XV86, in the WD rules printed, removes the sigsys options, and does not grant them again. Plain as day.
No, it might not be worded the same in the codex. Won't know until we're reading it. But the WD rules are pretty clear.
maceria wrote: You know, thinking about the ColdStar, I have a pretty major thought: is that bonding knife in the picture modeled on the jetpack already? I hope not, there are much better places for it.
The bonding knife looks like it's on the jet pack of a normal crisis suit, not commander/Coldstar, and I doubt it'll be modelled on already.
May take ranged weapons and support systems.
May take signature systems.
Alternatively, may take a Coldstar with x weapons.
If so, may also take support systems.
Full stop. The XV86, in the WD rules printed, removes the sigsys options, and does not grant them again. Plain as day.
No, it might not be worded the same in the codex. Won't know until we're reading it. But the WD rules are pretty clear.
RAW I do believe it can take signature systems.
The permission to take signature systems was not specific to a crisis battlesuit but was for the commander.
A Coldstar replaces their crisis battlesuit but still is a commander. So an explicit restriction of taking signature system is needed to revoke the previous permission. At least this is how I am reading it.
May take ranged weapons and support systems.
May take signature systems.
Alternatively, may take a Coldstar with x weapons.
If so, may also take support systems.
Full stop. The XV86, in the WD rules printed, removes the sigsys options, and does not grant them again. Plain as day.
No, it might not be worded the same in the codex. Won't know until we're reading it. But the WD rules are pretty clear.
RAW I do believe it can take signature systems.
The permission to take signature systems was not specific to a crisis battlesuit but was for the commander.
A Coldstar replaces their crisis battlesuit but still is a commander. So an explicit restriction of taking signature system is needed to revoke the previous permission. At least this is how I am reading it.
That's not what the rules say at all. Look at them again. The first 3 options just say "may take". The last option says "A Commander in an XV86 Coldstar may take". The exception is pretty cut and dry right there.
This scenario is very similar to the Space Marine Command Squad’s Apothecary and Veterans.
Veteran takes a bike (or w/e other options)
Veteran with a bike upgrades to be an Apothecary, replaces bolter (plus w/e it was) with an N…(forgot the name).
Commander with a crisis battlesuit (wargear) takes signature systems
Commander with signature system upgrades its crisis battlesuit (wargear) with a Coldstar battlesuit with the High Output BC and MP.
So in both cases they just need to meet the requirements to be upgraded. Bolter (plus w/e it was) for an Apothecary and Crisis Battlesuit for a Coldstar. Going with this logic, technically a Coldstar can have 4 weapons as long as 2 of them are a HOBC and MP (cannot have any support system because of the hard limit of 4 set by the first permission). At least that is how I interpreted the ITC FAQ for the Apothecary and my FLGS plays ITC formats, so that is what I am basing my assumptions.
Honestly they should have just made the Coldstar a separate unit entry to avoid this kind of debate, I'm 99% in the camp of it not being able to take Signature Systems but I understand why quite a few people believe otherwise.
No, it's nothing like that. You model may take signature systems. OR a model may take coldstar.
It's like the "One model not already upgraded" clause all over the IG codex. It's not a "well, it's the same unit, it's just named different" issue like with the apothacaries. It is a "you may do this, or this" entry.
A commander may select 4 items from ranged/support list, and select items from the signature systems list.
ALTERNATIVELY it may select a coldstar. Then it has these specific weapons, and may select two support systems.
And this is why RAW discussions are stupid. Its viewed in so many ways.
Why on earth would they list his options more than once when you buy the coldstar suit unless it was to restrict some of them? The game is significantly less stressful and fun if you play logically. Look at the way rules are laid out for situations like this. Strictly RAW if hes allowed to take sig systems still, the wording makes 0 sense. Kinda like how people claim GMCs can still only fire 2 guns despite every single GMC that even has a gun has a plethora of small arms on top of one or two big guns. Why would they equip EVERY GMC with multiple guns if they can only fire 2? Makes 0 sense.
Commander
-May take 4 ranged/support system
-May take signature systems (not tied to wargears)
-May take 2 drones
-May replace its crisis battlesuit (wargear) with a Coldstar battlesuit (wargear)
-A Commander in a Coldstar may take support system and drones
The commander was given a permission to take signature systems which was not tied to any wargear. Coldstar replaces a crisis battlesuit which are both wargears. Once given a permission an explicit restriction is required to revoke said permission. I do not see anything in the entry that is restricting the commander from taking signature systems. I see where people are assuming the coldstar cannot have any signature systems because of the reiteration of the drones option but no where in that entry invalidates the permission for taking signature systems. Yes the signature system part was not reiterated from the coldstar entry but that does not equate revoking the permission for a commander to take signature systems. It needs to explicitly state that a coldstar cannot take signature systems to revoke the permission it was given. So yes, RAW I do believe it can take signature systems.
If you are right and Iridium Armour is still a relic and works the way it currently does, it will make the Coldstar so much better than it currently is. Otherwise I'm hoping the seemingly confirmed page with all the rules for the different Battlesuits (the wargear for the Commander says "Crisis Battlesuit) has some added stuff regarding the Coldstar suit. I think it's a finicky but cool unit otherwise.
It can't take any signature systems. In its little blurb it tells us what we can take with it and it says only 2 support systems and 2 drones. If we could take even some signature systems or even no limit like a normal commander it would be listed as being an option.
They chose to exclude it which tells us all we need to know. No signature systems.
Tautastic wrote: Commander
-May take 4 ranged/support system
-May take signature systems (not tied to wargears)
-May take 2 drones
-May replace its crisis battlesuit (wargear) with a Coldstar battlesuit (wargear)
-A Commander in a Coldstar may take support system and drones
The commander was given a permission to take signature systems which was not tied to any wargear. Coldstar replaces a crisis battlesuit which are both wargears. Once given a permission an explicit restriction is required to revoke said permission. I do not see anything in the entry that is restricting the commander from taking signature systems. I see where people are assuming the coldstar cannot have any signature systems because of the reiteration of the drones option but no where in that entry invalidates the permission for taking signature systems. Yes the signature system part was not reiterated from the coldstar entry but that does not equate revoking the permission for a commander to take signature systems. It needs to explicitly state that a coldstar cannot take signature systems to revoke the permission it was given. So yes, RAW I do believe it can take signature systems.
If this is the way it works why did they specify the number of drones. Since they didn't change then there is no reason to relist them. if it was writen like you are suggesting then the only addition after the coldstar entry would be the limiting of support system.
Thank is just my feeling. play with it how you want as long as you, your opponent, and your TO (if you have one) agree.
Cause its not the way it works. People will read rules to favor themselves whether they do it intentionally or not.
It says INSTEAD, on top of omitting the sig system options if you take a coldstar unit. There is no debate, as much as i think it sucks its the way its written clean as day.
Tautastic wrote: Commander
-May take 4 ranged/support system
-May take signature systems (not tied to wargears)
-May take 2 drones
-May replace its crisis battlesuit (wargear) with a Coldstar battlesuit (wargear)
-A Commander in a Coldstar may take support system and drones
The commander was given a permission to take signature systems which was not tied to any wargear. Coldstar replaces a crisis battlesuit which are both wargears. Once given a permission an explicit restriction is required to revoke said permission. I do not see anything in the entry that is restricting the commander from taking signature systems. I see where people are assuming the coldstar cannot have any signature systems because of the reiteration of the drones option but no where in that entry invalidates the permission for taking signature systems. Yes the signature system part was not reiterated from the coldstar entry but that does not equate revoking the permission for a commander to take signature systems. It needs to explicitly state that a coldstar cannot take signature systems to revoke the permission it was given. So yes, RAW I do believe it can take signature systems.
Commander and Commander in Coldstar are two separate things, so the options for one aren't for the other. RAW, and honestly how it's worded it clearly shows that the Coldstar is only allowed to take Support Systems and Drones. Anything other interpretation is just kinda reaching.
A Commander can either be in a crisis battlesuit or a coldstar battlesuit (both wargears) but still is a Commander. If they were separate things then it should have been in separate entries (Farsight and Shadowsun) but both are under the Commander entry which entails they are both Commanders but with different wargears. The permission for taking signature systems is not dependent or tied with any wargear but to the Commander. Also, the "INSTEAD" part was referring to wargears (Crisis battlesuits or coldstar battlesuits). Again, the permission to take signature items is not tied to wargears.
Tautastic wrote: A Commander can either be in a crisis battlesuit or a coldstar battlesuit (both wargears) but still is a Commander. If they were separate things then it should have been in separate entries (Farsight and Shadowsun) but both are under the Commander entry which entails they are both Commanders but with different wargears. The permission for taking signature systems is not dependent or tied with any wargear but to the Commander. Also, the "INSTEAD" part was referring to wargears (Crisis battlesuits or coldstar battlesuits). Again, the permission to take signature items is not tied to wargears.
If that was in any way true, there would be no reason to list Support Systems or Drones again. You can't just contradict yourself, you're clearly trying to interpret it in an illogical fashion.
Tautastic wrote: A Commander can either be in a crisis battlesuit or a coldstar battlesuit (both wargears) but still is a Commander. If they were separate things then it should have been in separate entries (Farsight and Shadowsun) but both are under the Commander entry which entails they are both Commanders but with different wargears. The permission for taking signature systems is not dependent or tied with any wargear but to the Commander. Also, the "INSTEAD" part was referring to wargears (Crisis battlesuits or coldstar battlesuits). Again, the permission to take signature items is not tied to wargears.
Signature systems are wargear....theyre just listed separately to avoid having to specify what a model can and cannot take from a wargear list. You cannot say the instead word only restricts part of the before-mentioned options. Its like complimenting a girl on dozens of things and adding the word "but..." at the end. Everything you just said now means absolutely nothing. Try as you will to explain that "but" statement was only for one part of the compliments, she will still disregard all of them.
No, it might not be worded the same in the codex. Won't know until we're reading it. But the WD rules are pretty clear.
I wish I could agree as to the obviousness. I'm limited ATM to referencial material, but I have the 6th ed Space Marine codex. to delineate when The Chapter Master Terminator Upgrade is taken, they denote it as a hyphon rather than a bullet. It additionally specifically notes the terminator character 'may ONLY take....'
Regarding the outcome, I am inclined to agree with you(by the preponderance of the rule, not absolution). But as to the clarity, we part ways.
I would much prefer they word it similarly to the Termnator hero example:
Commander
* May take 4 ranged/support system
* May take signature systems (not tied to wargears)
* May take 2 drones
* May replace its crisis battlesuit (wargear) with a Coldstar battlesuit (wargear)
_ -A Commander in a Coldstar may only take support system and drones
.
Requizen wrote: Commander and Commander in Coldstar are two separate things, so the options for one aren't for the other. RAW, and honestly how it's worded it clearly shows that the Coldstar is only allowed to take Support Systems and Drones. Anything other interpretation is just kinda reaching.
No different than Captain Karlaen (and I'm sure, the forthcoming Captain that comes in the Solaq box) are Captains, but don't have access to any of the options under Space Marine or Blood Angels Captains, and aren't interchangeable with unnamed captains (to complete a formation, for instance). Same can be said for any model with its own dataslate.
Requizen wrote: Commander and Commander in Coldstar are two separate things, so the options for one aren't for the other. RAW, and honestly how it's worded it clearly shows that the Coldstar is only allowed to take Support Systems and Drones. Anything other interpretation is just kinda reaching.
No different than Captain Karlaen (and I'm sure, the forthcoming Captain that comes in the Solaq box) are Captains, but don't have access to any of the options under Space Marine or Blood Angels Captains, and aren't interchangeable with unnamed captains (to complete a formation, for instance). Same can be said for any model with its own dataslate.
Strictly speaking, the reason why Captain Karlaen doesn't have access to any of the options under Space Marine[why would a Blood Angel have Space Marine wargear options anyways?] or Blood Angels Captains is because he is a named Captain. If you want to field him as Captain Karlaen, you field him with the wargear he comes with.
And also strictly speaking, the reason he is not "interchangeable with unnamed captains(to complete a formation, for instance)" is because he is not a "Codex" character. If he were in the Codex I can pretty much guarantee that there would be an asterisk next to the "Captain" notation allowing you to field him in lieu of a Captain.
Requizen wrote: That's not what the rules say at all. Look at them again. The first 3 options just say "may take". The last option says "A Commander in an XV86 Coldstar may take". The exception is pretty cut and dry right there.
But they are different dataslates.
For example, a space marine Captain says under its dataslates, "A Captain may take a stormshield." If you then take a named Captain, for instance, Captain Sicarius, you may NOT take a stormshield.
Likewise, Sergeant Telion isn't treated as a Sergeant, Chaplain Cassius doesn't get the Chaplain options, Captain Lysander doesn't get the Captain options, etc. Pedro Kantor, who is "Crimson Fists Chapter Master", also cannot take any of the upgrades that say, "A Captain or Chapter Master may take ..." under Chapter Master.
Strictly speaking, the reason why Captain Karlaen doesn't have access to any of the options under Space Marine[why would a Blood Angel have Space Marine wargear options anyways?] or Blood Angels Captains is because he is a named Captain. If you want to field him as Captain Karlaen, you field him with the wargear he comes with.
And also strictly speaking, the reason he is not "interchangeable with unnamed captains(to complete a formation, for instance)" is because he is not a "Codex" character. If he were in the Codex I can pretty much guarantee that there would be an asterisk next to the "Captain" notation allowing you to field him in lieu of a Captain.
Playing Rules as Written, if you fielded a Blood Angels Battle Company, which requires a Captain, you couldn't take Captain Tycho (who is in the same codex). However, if you played a Ultramarines Battle Company, you could take Captain Lysander, because it specifically says you can.
Of course, just about any player in a non-tournament setting will let you sub that in, because it "makes sense". And any player in a tournament will think you're crazy if you're playing a BA company
I do acknowledge that it is contradicting to reiterate both support system and drones but not signature systems and still claim a Commander in a coldstar battlesuit can take signature systems. But, nowhere in the whole entry does it explicitly revoke the permission for a Commander to take signature systems. I am basing my claim to only what is written, RAW, and in the Commander entry it permits it to take a signature system. This permission is not tied to a Commander being in a crisis battlesuit or a coldstar battlesuit but to the Commander itself. A Commander in a crisis battlesuit and a Commander in a coldstar battlesuit are both a Commander. Note: they are under the same entry unlike Farsight and Shadowsun which are both commanders but have separate entries and as such has different options, that is why I am claiming this.
Yes signature systems are wargears but the permission to take signature systems is not linked or dependent to a crisis battlesuit (which is being replaced with a coldstars battlesuits). The permission was given to a Commander and a Commander in a Coldstar battlesuit is still a Commander.
Our conversation/debate is more suited in the YMDC section. I will happily continue our mature debate in that section. Let us not derail the thread further, beside the codex is not even out yet. One little sentence can make me concede "Only crisis battlesuits can take signature systems" because as far as I know, except riptides in a FE, only models in a crisis battlesuits can take signature systems now.
It seems to me personally that arguing that the Commander cannot take signature systems with a Coldstar would be the same as saying a Chapter Master on a bike cannot artifacts because his profile says a Chapter Master can take artifact, not a Chapter Master on a bike can take artifacts. There are pretty clear reasons why they relist the support systems and drones. Due to the Coldstar having 2 mandatory weapons, they need to specify that he only has room for 2 support systems due to 2 of the 4 hardpoints being taken up, otherwise the argument could be made that he can take an additional 4 weapons or support systems. Likewise with the drones, it needed to be specified that a Coldstar can take drones as normally an MC or FMC cannot add non-MC models to its unit. If they didn't specify that there the argument could be made that the Coldstar cannot take drones.
I can see why the argument could be made that he can't take signature systems, but I can also equally see why he can take them. This is likely gonna be a debate we won't settle until we see the actual codex. As I said I'm personally leaning towards he can as it makes so sense that a battlesuit seemingly worn specifically by Commanders cannot use equipment made specially for Commanders and their bodyguards.
Also keep in mind that we don't actually know the rules for the Coldstar suit. The rules for the different battlesuits are seperate from the unit profiles, so for all we know the Coldstar might have increased armor and toughness, or it might specify somewhere else that a Coldstar can take signature systems. After all, (again using Space Marines as an example) even though a Captain can take a bike, the profile for a Captain on a bike and the rules for a bike are not included in the Captain's profile. Until we have a full read of the rules for Commanders and Coldstars, we simply can't know.
Sorry for derailing the topic, I completely missed "instead" in my sleep deprivation. The formatting us still confusing as hell and be a sperate unit entry.
I can see why the argument could be made that he can't take signature systems, but I can also equally see why he can take them.
Actually, as I can see, the whole problem is pretty darn overblown. The option itself invalidates all previous options because... wait for it... you take it instead of the previous options. It is written down clear-as-day right in the friggin option:
Ranged Weapons/Support Systems/Signature Systems/Drones options >A Commander may instead replace its Crisis Battlesuit with an XV86 Coldstar Battlesuit
