LighthouseM wrote: So there isn't any mention about whether or not you can link up the Gun Rig/Drone Ports to a shield line (like you are able to with the Rampart)
Does that mean if you take a Shield Line and a Gun Rig, they have to remain unattached to each other?
Yes. Only the Tidewall allows you to add new pieces
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Girrrrrrrrrrr wrote:just had a thought, Drones with a drone controler firing the gunrig =D
Do you mean a commander with drone controller in a drone unit, which is on the gunrig?
MoD_Legion wrote:
Eh? The gunrigs are battlefield debris item thingie-ma-bobs arent they? (At least I haven't seen any stat lines for em) Meaning you cant remove them from the field. As long as you have a model to place next to it you can keep it shooting.
they're defence lines, but in the core rulebook, if you look at gun emplacements, it will explain that they have a statline, can be destroyed and even charged.
You can lose the gun, but the disk remains. The disk is invulnerable.
they're defence lines, but in the core rulebook, if you look at gun emplacements, it will explain that they have a statline, can be destroyed and even charged.
You can lose the gun, but the disk remains. The disk is invulnerable.
Ah that's a bummer then, I never really play with gun emplacements and actual buildings so I"m not that familiar with their rules.
Lot of people dont. Gun emplacements are usually reserved for scenarios since most people dont normally use fortifications. Only guy i know that even owns the Rampart or that "bunker" thing never uses it except in apoc gameplay because its simply too large and heavily overpowered in a standard game.
ADL is the most common way you'll see a gun emplacement but that seems to have vanished ive noticed. I have it as well but i literally never use it.
I imagine the tidewall will be the same as the rampart. Yes, you can bring it in a normal game, you probably wont though due purely to the size of it.
Formations aside the only real difference is 3 new units, firewarriors getting the admittedly cool sounding turret thingie, squadrons of riptides/hammerheads/skyrays as well as Fire Team (+1BS when theres 3 MCs or Vehicles as long as one of them has this rule....yea its a pretty janky wording), and CIB/AFB are no longer unique guns. Oh and crisis suits are in squads of 1-9 now apparently.
No statline or cost changes. No new gun options aside from the before mentioned CIB/AFB being widely available instead of unique.
The formations though....eeeeesh they completely revamp how tau are going to play.
Vineheart01 wrote: Formations aside the only real difference is 3 new units, firewarriors getting the admittedly cool sounding turret thingie, squadrons of riptides/hammerheads/skyrays as well as Fire Team (+1BS when theres 3 MCs or Vehicles as long as one of them has this rule....yea its a pretty janky wording), and CIB/AFB are no longer unique guns. Oh and crisis suits are in squads of 1-9 now apparently.
No statline or cost changes. No new gun options aside from the before mentioned CIB/AFB being widely available instead of unique.
The formations though....eeeeesh they completely revamp how tau are going to play.
Don't forget the FMCommander
And Ethereals can take Recon Armor and a Hover Drone.
What do people currently think with everything leaked so far ala formations, new units, new rules etc... will be the most competitive way to run the Tau in future? For myself I think that Stormsurge's and Hunter Contingent will be a major part of it. Also I think the Optimised Stealth Cadre formation has real potential. What do we think Dakka, what will be the go too units and formations for the tournament gamer?
While the Gunrig and Droneport seem straightforward, interested to see if there are one or two Shieldlines, and whether the Control Platform from the Tidewall Box is included as well.
While the Gunrig and Droneport seem straightforward, interested to see if there are one or two Shieldlines, and whether the Control Platform from the Tidewall Box is included as well.
agnosto wrote: Really wish the mini-turrets were sold separately..
In other news, sheesh look at all the lizardman stuff that went direct only.
While i agree the turret should be available on its own, flipside its just a drone hiding behind a cylinder wall. Literally. Im pretty sure we all have dozens of drone bits lying around. Either find something about the right width and cut it up or just use plasticard to make the cylinder..bam turret.
And yeah i cant believe i forgot about the "FMC" Commander. While its not amazing by any means its fun as hell sounding and i fully intend to be a dick with it lol
wyomingfox wrote: Does anyone know if a Broadside can fit on a shield line? If on top of a shield line, is 25% of the Broadside obscured?
Spoiler:
The review the photos are from (not mine) shows several Tau units occupying the fortifications - the text is german but there are lots of photos spread throughout. The Broadside should be hidden BEHIND the walls + shields but not if standing on the rigs without the shields. There is no place to put them onto the shieldwalls anyway.
Quick question to anyone with the codex confirm the exact rules for the Hunter Cadre as in bonuses - I know that you get defensive/supporting fire at 12" and the run shoot thing (is it true that to do this you have to be within 12" of the commander?)
wyomingfox wrote: Does anyone know if a Broadside can fit on a shield line? If on top of a shield line, is 25% of the Broadside obscured?
Looking at mine, a Broadside is 25% obscured by the shield line, so he can definitely get the cover save from it. As for fitting on it, that's a bit trickier. Approximately 75 to 80% of the 60mm base fits on the Shield line, and the Broadside does rest on it (When placed on the shield line as much as possible, the Broadside model sits on the line without leaning off/touching the board behind the Shield line). However, it does not fit 100% on the line. Probably will depend on how you play it. Personally I play that when it comes to cover and placing models, if you can place it, it can do there. For example, if I'm playing with one of the official GW ruins pieces, I can't place a 60mm base fully on the second or third levels, but I can rest the model on the levels. So, when I'm playing, a 60mm based model can be placed up there if he rests without falling off.
If you play it that way, then yes you can easily place Broadsides on the shield line, claim the cover save, and move around (how I'm personally going to play it). If not, then you can get the cover save, but can't have the shield line drive your Broadsides across the board. Of course if you're using the old Broadsides on 40mm bases, you're good to go!
Tau Skyfire wrote: Quick question to anyone with the codex confirm the exact rules for the Hunter Cadre as in bonuses - I know that you get defensive/supporting fire at 12" and the run shoot thing (is it true that to do this you have to be within 12" of the commander?)
It looks like it says within 12" of the commander or the fireblade, if one is taken, to gain the run then shoot ability.
I imagine that was intentional. If you could bypass the "only join squads of firewarriors or pathfinders" bit he would quickly become insanely powerful.
Vineheart01 wrote: I imagine that was intentional. If you could bypass the "only join squads of firewarriors or pathfinders" bit he would quickly become insanely powerful.
What? No.
I mean there is literally no slot in the Command, Core, or any of the formations to take him.
You can only take him as part of a CAD or Allied Detachment.
You can still use his ability in a Taucurion, but not as easily.
His rule doesn't specify he can only join squads in his Detachment, so you can just take a barebones CAD with him and 2 small Strike/Breacher squads, then join him to a Strike/Breacher/Pathfinder squad from the Taucurion.
LighthouseM wrote: So, I'm looking through and it appears that there is no way to bring Darkstrider in a Hunter Contingent. Am I wrong?
I would not be surprised if they release in the future a Montka Warzone Damocles book with a new Taucurion would include him or farsight instead of Shadowsun.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: You can still use his ability in a Taucurion, but not as easily.
His rule doesn't specify he can only join squads in his Detachment, so you can just take a barebones CAD with him and 2 small Strike/Breacher squads, then join him to a Strike/Breacher/Pathfinder squad from the Taucurion.
Them combine fire and bam, instant cheese.
Yeah sure...but it just seems like a glaring omission. You'd think at the very least he would be an option for the Command (you know, along with every other HQ in the codex)
LighthouseM wrote: So, I'm looking through and it appears that there is no way to bring Darkstrider in a Hunter Contingent. Am I wrong?
I would not be surprised if they release in the future a Montka Warzone Damocles book with a new Taucurion would include him or farsight instead of Shadowsun.
Oh yeah i guess theres that loophole to get him in there. It does add a lot of value on his head since that makes him around ~220pts or something like that with 2 min FW squads, but depending on who youre dealing with the ability to let your Hammerheads or Railsides instasport T6/T5 things is insane. Or T4 for that matter via missilesides or MP crisis suits.
Still, not sure if i'd want to spend that much to bring such a squishy unit i cant hide behind suits or inside a devilfish since he has to actually shoot to use him. A firewarrior squad is not that hard to focus fire down, but until you stick the nonsuit characters in one there is little reason to focus so much of your army into them early on.
The other half of the Campaign book probably isn't coming out for a good while; they have the Horus Heresy coming out, more Age of Sigmar apparently...
Maybe when the Astra Militarium book comes out? They'll call it 'Killing Blow' instead of 'Mont'ka'.
They do make a point that the Etherials know that Farsight is alive, and they want to know exactly how the jerk is still alive...AND how they got the riptide battlesuit.
Opinion discarded, placed in a fire proof waste bin, doused with agent orange and burned as blatantly false. Just because you don't know how to use them does not mean this is in any way shape or form remotely true.
If you look at actual results its blatantly true since the last three books came out
Eldar
Necrons
Marines
Everyone else
An arguement could be made to swap necrons with marines, but they are still top 3. Dont believe me? Start a poll. Ask weather people think necrons are one of the top 3 armies. I guarantee you your results will apparently suprise you.
It doesn't matter what people think on a website where 99% of lists posted are terrible and people say"yeah that's good it can kill tactical marines" Like they don't understand hat if you bring something specifically for something like tacticals you already are building a bad list. I like to go by results of those playing at the most competitive level. The results won't surprise me since I have rarely met my match in an opponent I think most people are bad. I see people deepstrike over 400 pts regularly without a reserve modifier. If you do this I am going to tell you now it's not that you aren't good it's that you're bad.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think I can build better DA lists than marines at the moment actually.
On a side note apparently I'm not allowed to get the new codex since GW is the only website that won't take my money regardless of the source. Really frustrating. I can't paypal or direct pay.
Vineheart01 wrote: Formations aside the only real difference is 3 new units, firewarriors getting the admittedly cool sounding turret thingie, squadrons of riptides/hammerheads/skyrays as well as Fire Team (+1BS when theres 3 MCs or Vehicles as long as one of them has this rule....yea its a pretty janky wording), and CIB/AFB are no longer unique guns. Oh and crisis suits are in squads of 1-9 now apparently.
No statline or cost changes. No new gun options aside from the before mentioned CIB/AFB being widely available instead of unique.
The formations though....eeeeesh they completely revamp how tau are going to play.[/quote
I don't know 5++ or 4++ options for Firewarriors is a pretty big change I would think. Suddenly you actually have to shoot them to kill them. Got to admit having to use Markerlight to make Destroyer missiles D in stead of 8 make shtme the least offensive of the D weapons.
After looking at the new book they didn't give the Tau anything they didn't have already except a Garg and even that is just Str x spam (like it's the equivalent of 360pts in fire warriors but probably not as good from a maelstrom perspective) and low AP big blast which The entire army and riptides already did really easily. I see nothing of value and they nerfed the firebase which was literally the ONLY reason Tau could play competitively. Kind of a disappointment actually So I'm glad they won't let me get the limited edition
This does not bring the Tau to new marine or Eldar level. They're actually just in the same exact spot but with more options. The formations do not compensate for the taxes you have to take the way the marines ones do. I'm not taking 600 pts in trash to make my my one unit that doesn't suck in the formation better which is what I see in those. The gladius or Lion's blade has immediate win pontential that can clearly be seen. These do not. I don't mind being forced to take bad units but I do not see how this can be competitive.
I disagree with most I think the formations are pretty bad. They actually had to nerf the firebase so that people would play them
jakejackjake wrote: After looking at the new book they didn't give the Tau anything they didn't have already except a Garg and even that is just Str 5 spam and low AP big blast which The entire army and riptides already did really easily. I see nothing of value and they nerfed the firebase which was literally the ONLY reason Tau could play competitively. Kind of a disappointment actually So I'm glad they won't let me get the limited edition
This does not bring the Tau to new marine or Eldar level. They're actually just in the same exact spot but with more options. The formations do not compensate for the taxes you have to take the way the marines ones do. I'm not taking 600 pts in trash to make my my one unit that doesn't suck in the formation better which is what I see in those. The gladius or Lion's blade has immediate win pontential that can clearly be seen. These do not. I don't mind being forced to take bad units but I do not see how this can be competitive.
Sorry, but you lost ALL credibility with that statement lol
Str D missiles?
2+ cover save MC?
INSANE formations sharing all special rules?
Nothing new... hahaha
In what world will you ever need more than 4 S-D shots that will probably also be BS5 and Ignores Cover?
Player on internet gets affordable Dakka GC with D weaponry that synergizes with the rest of their army and still finds things to complain about, news at 11.
again. lost all credibility. 1 unit being able to fire all 4, each at a different target turn 1 is crazy good.
Having army wide sharing of marker lights, sharing of all special abilities, adding +1BS for 3 units firing at the same target, 12" supportive fire, running AND shooting for all infantry, flat out and shooting for all vehicles.
Yeah, nothing new for the army right?
Not to mention the bonuses the individual formations give. Optimized Stealth Cadre? +1 BS, ignore cover, and always hit rear armor? yeah not good lol
The only fomration that is really good requires you buy $400 in just models... Models no one has because they just got released. The stormsurge is good. That's basically it in the whole new book. They even made the firebase a LOT worse.
again. lost all credibility. 1 unit being able to fire all 4, each at a different target turn 1 is crazy good.
Having army wide sharing of marker lights, sharing of all special abilities, adding +1BS for 3 units firing at the same target, 12" supportive fire, running AND shooting for all infantry, flat out and shooting for all vehicles.
Yeah, nothing new for the army right?
Not to mention the bonuses the individual formations give. Optimized Stealth Cadre? +1 BS, ignore cover, and always hit rear armor? yeah not good lol
Those rules dont make stealth teams good and the core is INCREDIBLY expensive and you have to use three units on the same one for the bonus..... that fething terrible To be competitive still it will cost a crap load including the book. I'll probably just shelf the Tau or sell them, and start working on my DA more and imperial allies
I guess I shouldn't be surprised when a new book coming out means even someone with a 3500 pt Tau army like me needs to drop another thousand to compete in GT's
jakejackjake wrote: The only fomration that is really good requires you buy $400 in just models... Models no one has because they just got released. The stormsurge is good. That's basically it in the whole new book. They even made the firebase a LOT worse.
Lolwtf? The Firebase got way better. Oh no, it lost PE(Space Marines)! What a tragedy!
The Stormsurge/Ghostkeel formation is garbage anyway. Stealth Cadre is great. Firebase is great. Base formation is great. Armored Cadre is actually pretty ok especially with the Taucurion bonus.
Stop trying to find things to complain about. The book is good. Yeah it didn't get the Eldar treatment of "make everything competitive", but it sure as hell made the good things better and the new things are all quite good.
Let's see if you'll still be whining the first time you take a Hunter Contingent and smash someone.
again. lost all credibility. 1 unit being able to fire all 4, each at a different target turn 1 is crazy good.
Having army wide sharing of marker lights, sharing of all special abilities, adding +1BS for 3 units firing at the same target, 12" supportive fire, running AND shooting for all infantry, flat out and shooting for all vehicles.
Yeah, nothing new for the army right?
Not to mention the bonuses the individual formations give. Optimized Stealth Cadre? +1 BS, ignore cover, and always hit rear armor? yeah not good lol
Those rules dont make stealth teams good and the core is INCREDIBLY expensive and you have to use three units on the same one for the bonus..... that fething terrible To be competitive still it will cost a crap load including the book. I'll probably just shelf the Tau or sell them, and start working on my DA more and imperial allies
It just sounds like you want to quit Tau. Ok, but don't try to convince anyone it's because the new stuff sucks. It doesn't. You might, though.
again. lost all credibility. 1 unit being able to fire all 4, each at a different target turn 1 is crazy good.
Having army wide sharing of marker lights, sharing of all special abilities, adding +1BS for 3 units firing at the same target, 12" supportive fire, running AND shooting for all infantry, flat out and shooting for all vehicles.
Yeah, nothing new for the army right?
Not to mention the bonuses the individual formations give. Optimized Stealth Cadre? +1 BS, ignore cover, and always hit rear armor? yeah not good lol
I wish it was that good, it takes a lot to get those abilities to work in models, and restrictions that have to be meet. Is it terrible no, but not near on the eldar level.
jakejackjake wrote: The only fomration that is really good requires you buy $400 in just models... Models no one has because they just got released. The stormsurge is good. That's basically it in the whole new book. They even made the firebase a LOT worse.
Lolwtf? The Firebase got way better. Oh no, it lost PE(Space Marines)! What a tragedy!
The Stormsurge/Ghostkeel formation is garbage anyway. Stealth Cadre is great. Firebase is great. Base formation is great. Armored Cadre is actually pretty ok especially with the Taucurion bonus.
Stop trying to find things to complain about. The book is good. Yeah it didn't get the Eldar treatment of "make everything competitive", but it sure as hell made the good things better and the new things are all quite good.
Let's see if you'll still be whining the first time you take a Hunter Contingent and smash someone.
again. lost all credibility. 1 unit being able to fire all 4, each at a different target turn 1 is crazy good.
Having army wide sharing of marker lights, sharing of all special abilities, adding +1BS for 3 units firing at the same target, 12" supportive fire, running AND shooting for all infantry, flat out and shooting for all vehicles.
Yeah, nothing new for the army right?
Not to mention the bonuses the individual formations give. Optimized Stealth Cadre? +1 BS, ignore cover, and always hit rear armor? yeah not good lol
Those rules dont make stealth teams good and the core is INCREDIBLY expensive and you have to use three units on the same one for the bonus..... that fething terrible To be competitive still it will cost a crap load including the book. I'll probably just shelf the Tau or sell them, and start working on my DA more and imperial allies
It just sounds like you want to quit Tau. Ok, but don't try to convince anyone it's because the new stuff sucks. It doesn't. You might, though.
How did firebase get better? You have to shoot all three units at the same thing to get the bonuses. Something I've literally never done, and the idea of doing so is incredibly wasteful. It's a MASSIVE nerf. I probably wont even field it anymore.
If you live in the north east of the states we can set up a game at some point. I'm from New Enlgand. I've lost 2 warhammer games so far now. I just don't lose at strategy games. The army wide rules are only if you combine all their shots which means you firiing multiple hundreds of points at 1 thing besides the GC who only have to fire one weapon at it
jakejackjake wrote: The only fomration that is really good requires you buy $400 in just models... Models no one has because they just got released. The stormsurge is good. That's basically it in the whole new book. They even made the firebase a LOT worse.
Lolwtf? The Firebase got way better. Oh no, it lost PE(Space Marines)! What a tragedy!
The Stormsurge/Ghostkeel formation is garbage anyway. Stealth Cadre is great. Firebase is great. Base formation is great. Armored Cadre is actually pretty ok especially with the Taucurion bonus.
Stop trying to find things to complain about. The book is good. Yeah it didn't get the Eldar treatment of "make everything competitive", but it sure as hell made the good things better and the new things are all quite good.
Let's see if you'll still be whining the first time you take a Hunter Contingent and smash someone.
again. lost all credibility. 1 unit being able to fire all 4, each at a different target turn 1 is crazy good.
Having army wide sharing of marker lights, sharing of all special abilities, adding +1BS for 3 units firing at the same target, 12" supportive fire, running AND shooting for all infantry, flat out and shooting for all vehicles.
Yeah, nothing new for the army right?
Not to mention the bonuses the individual formations give. Optimized Stealth Cadre? +1 BS, ignore cover, and always hit rear armor? yeah not good lol
Those rules dont make stealth teams good and the core is INCREDIBLY expensive and you have to use three units on the same one for the bonus..... that fething terrible To be competitive still it will cost a crap load including the book. I'll probably just shelf the Tau or sell them, and start working on my DA more and imperial allies
It just sounds like you want to quit Tau. Ok, but don't try to convince anyone it's because the new stuff sucks. It doesn't. You might, though.
How did firebase get better? You have to shoot all three units at the same thing to get the bonuses. Something I've literally never done, and the idea of doing so is incredibly wasteful
It gained Monster Hunter, and in a game where Wraithknights, Daemon Princes, and Flying Hive Tyrants reign supreme (not to mention other Riptides/Stormsurges), that's pretty freaking amazing. PE(SM) was a joke.
Plus, now you don't have to take max units of Broadsides. 1 Broadside + 1 Broadside + 1 unit of 3 Riptides (who are now BS4 with Fire Team). That's much better than the old version and if you deny that you're seriously delusional.
The OSC may not do much for stealthsuits but a full team of Ghostkeels is always going to be an Ignore covers, hitting rear armor, BS 5 tank bust nightmare. Toss on CFD's to give them help against charges and that looks ugly, expensive (about 600pts) but ugly.
It's actually not even close to better. It's 160 pts more and worse anti vehicle, worse anti tank, DA bike spam(which will become really hot soon), it's literally worse against everything but tactical marines and WK's whichch were never a problem for me with Tau. and do you really want to make your 700-800 pt firebase(how much yours would be with standard equipment and 0 support systems on rips shooting at 1single unit. That's half you're list. If you think that's good YOURE delusional
shooting half your army at a big dangerous target is fine but you could potentially make 3 riptides or a riptide and 140 pts in broadsides not be able to shoot AT ALL. With the normal firebase that could never happen. It's a major difference.
AP1 and AP2 means nothing for Str D on its own. Remember though that it causes penetrating hits, not glances against a vehicle. So it greater increases the odds of explosions like any AP1 weapon. Unless you roll a 6 its entirely possible a vehicle wont be wrecked by default without the explode.
And there is no possible way the Tau got nerfed at all in this release. We literally got given the same exact codex with extra goodies, who the hell can claim that? Every release has nerfed something that made every buff meaningless (still pissed about cybork being a fething 6+ fnp....). Our formations are insane within the super formation, while i admit most of them are pretty moot on their own outside the stealth cadre and retaliation cadre.
4 one shot Str D missiles are vastly more preferred to me than a single gun that fires a single Str D every turn. Why? Simple - theyre separate guns....
Even the Wraithknight cant do this number - assuming your ML luck didnt suck balls, you can slam 4 targets with a Str D shot, or be a little more secure and hit 2 with 2 TURN ONE on top of its gakload of attacks. Vastly prefer this because i can instaspork so much crap i just dont want him to even get a chance to use (looking at you wraithknights....)
Ghostkeels have got to be the only unit in the entire damn game that actually can multitask literally on the fly. Every other unit that can multitask usually cant do it effectively or pays for it but never really uses it (which is the reason i despise any marine book). Their guns are extremely versatile, walking 2+ cover is nuts, T5 and 4W makes them durable as hell, and unless youre facing a melee star THEY CAN CHARGE - WS2 is only a flaw if you face WS5 people or people who spam weapons that pen your armor. Guess what not much fills either of those outside one or two attacks per unit in the case of marines without being considered a melee star.
Tau didnt get buffed to Eldar level of bullgak but they definitely got buffed like crazy.
Tau players that barely had enough broadsides and riptides to be competitive before and don't have money. They've got 0 chance at being competitve by the time their 8th edition book comes out.
The book isn't weak. It's douchey. Douchey because in order to compete in the most competitve meta any current Tau player is dropping around 1k and can't have the models assembled quick enough to still build a competitive list on the highest level
With marines they mostly did it with what everyone already normally owns. You might need one more tac squad and a rhino but everyone had most of the things if they played marines competitvely in 6th
I'm not arguing that a few things in it are okay... just that it's only the new models and everything existing got worse or wasn't good. If you think crisis suits are better than "good" or were in 6th chances are you dont even know what competitve means
The most competitive part of the Tau was not in their previous book though. It was the firebase and NO ONE winning GT's or even local competitions with Tau in a competitve meta will tell you otherwise.
Like I said the new units are good. Besides breachers and coldstar. Those are terribad
The wraithknight gets 2 a turn and is +2 toughness which is vastly better for like 160 less pts. I'm sorry nothing I'm hearing here is logical. The other guns is why its okay. The str D just gives it the little extra to make it good
Anyone from New England want to meet up this winter and I'll play my DA or Marines and you play a Tau list without a SS and see what happens.
Two stormsurges can be really good I would imagine. 8 D Shotss over the course of a game should be more than you need in addition to their giant shotgun of doom. By the time the missiles weaken any knights anything trying to get close to your gun of doom will likely be dead or join them in hell.
I don't think two SS is all that smart though depending on your army. You'll want one well supported one. Maybe two in a knight heavy environment.
Gamgee wrote: Two stormsurges can be really good I would imagine. 8 D Shotss over the course of a game should be more than you need in addition to their giant shotgun of doom. By the time the missiles weaken any knights anything trying to get close to your gun of doom will likely be dead or join them in hell.
I don't think two SS is all that smart though depending on your army. You'll want one well supported one. Maybe two in a knight heavy environment.
Yes but a single SS is only an option in a CAD from what I'm seeing
And what idiot want to deepstrike broadsides? What kind of a bonus is that?
jakejackjake wrote: Tau players that barely had enough broadsides and riptides to be competitive before and don't have money. They've got 0 chance at being competitve by the time their 8th edition book comes out.
The book isn't weak. It's douchey. Douchey because in order to compete in the most competitve meta any current Tau player is dropping around 1k and can't have the models assembled quick enough to still build a competitive list on the highest level
With marines they mostly did it with what everyone already normally owns. You might need one more tac squad and a rhino but everyone had most of the things if they played marines competitvely in 6th
I'm not arguing that a few things in it are okay... just that it's only the new models and everything existing got worse or wasn't good. If you think crisis suits are better than "good" or were in 6th chances are you dont even know what competitve means
The most competitive part of the Tau was not in their previous book though. It was the firebase and NO ONE winning GT's or even local competitions with Tau in a competitve meta will tell you otherwise.
Like I said the new units are good. Besides breachers and coldstar. Those are terribad
The wraithknight gets 2 a turn and is 10 8 which is vastly better for like 160 less pts. I'm sorry nothing I'm hearing here is logical.
The wraithknight is widely considered the most underpriced unit in the game aside from the revenant titan. At this point, the horse you're beating isn't just dead, it's undead and is walking. You have beaten the horse so much that you made it un-die.
Anyway, you just seem pissy that the Tau haven't gotten to the Eldar level of silly OP gak.
- We know that GW is openly contemptuous of its customers
- We know the design process for a codex is an exec going "hey, update this army."
- We know that if the author does not like the army, the codex with be gak (see: Tyranid codex) or awesome (see: Eldar codex)
- We know that GW considers themselves to be a model company, not a gaming company.
- We know they're greedy as feth.
Put it all together, and you have a codex designed to promote and increase the sales of extremely expensive and over-priced models. This isn't new information. Either deal with it and keep playing the game and giving your money to GW, or STFU and quit.
Okay but it's only new for Tau. None of the other new books did this. The same good things stayed good. Meaning somewhere around a $200 investment for anyone playing competitvely on the old books as opposed to with the Tau the min is well at least 2 SS and a GK so twice that. They did the same thing to Dark Angel fluffy players with the Deathwing rule but the Deathwing werent competitve in 6th and anyone who thinks they were is nuts. An entirely deathwing army was always a quick tabling for anyone I played with just about any of my armies.
I'm glad there was an error on the site when ordering the limited editon codex because I probably won't now. It's a great release from a modeling point of view but I'm a strategy gamer and they made it clear they don't value people like me who drop 10k on the hobby. It's okay. It's the exact reason financial investors are saying not to invest long term in them, and only short term if you do so
Gamgee wrote: Two stormsurges can be really good I would imagine. 8 D Shotss over the course of a game should be more than you need in addition to their giant shotgun of doom. By the time the missiles weaken any knights anything trying to get close to your gun of doom will likely be dead or join them in hell.
I don't think two SS is all that smart though depending on your army. You'll want one well supported one. Maybe two in a knight heavy environment.
Yes but a single SS is only an option in a CAD from what I'm seeing
And what idiot want to deepstrike broadsides? What kind of a bonus is that?
Huntre Cafre lets you take 1-3 units of the following: XV88, Hammerhead, Stormsurges, and/or Sniper Teams.
So yes it can take up to 9 if you have the points for them. Or as little as one.
Edit
The Broadsides have relentless. So they can move and shoot. HYMP + Twin Linked Plasma Rifle up the tailpipe of anything is going to hurt.
If you could confer a buffmanders role to multipl units shooting at different targets(i'd assume the split fire support system does not negate this) then it would be massively strong but with all the taxes not so much. You're basically taking 800pts to buff a SS. I wouldn't take broadsides with this if the firebase was the same it always was. Now it might be the best option but they were always relentless anyway if you brought tetras
They get relentless but lose tank hunter and the ability to shoot turn 1. Which is their entire strength. Removing 200--500 pts every game turn 1. They don't have that capability now. Also you just dont want half your army not able to shoot turn 1. Sure it can't be shot at but it just lets them focus down the other half while taking almost no return fire
It does mean you need less marker support though. Which could be something that help prove me wrong since you can share them in groups. It could make cover saves irrelevant but the problem is they already were to Tau so is that even a buff. Really tetras were super cheap and awesome. It just seems like you give up a ton for everything you get while the Mechanicum, DA and Marines were just giving hundred of free pts and the Eldar have big D's everywhere and more Str 6 on a jetbike base than the Tau have Str 5.
I'm pretty bullheaded though I could be completely proved wrong and thinking differently once I've gotten some games in.
The Stormsurge was tested in several games before the reveal that the Destroyer Missile could be buffed to S D. It ended up destroying large swaths of the enemy armies it faced. By attaching an Early Warning Override to it, it become an even greater threat as the Drop Pod army had no safe place to land without being dakka'd to death.
The build was Stormsurge - Pulse Driver Cannon, AFP or Flamers, Shield Generator, Early Warning Override.
Nilok wrote: The Stormsurge was tested in several games before the reveal that the Destroyer Missile could be buffed to S D. It ended up destroying large swaths of the enemy armies it faced. By attaching an Early Warning Override to it, it become an even greater threat as the Drop Pod army had no safe place to land without being dakka'd to death.
Again this sounds good against things the army wasn't only good at but the best at in any of the books already. I agree the SS is pretty good. But yeah I've been saying that the whole time. What I am saying is they basically were like buy SS because that's what we are giving you and the ghostkeel and nothing else. Everything else will remain for friendly games and we will now relegate the Firebase Cadre to friendly games too since all competive players already have 12 boradsides. Some of the people disagreeing have said fire warriors were a competitve unit in the current book in 7th recently in this thread though so they're I'm not sure if there is even much point discussing the strategy impact this has here
Can't you switch the flamers out? God I hope they werent bad enough not too
Uh when were Broadsides relentless? Ages ago in an old codice from what I hear.
Not last... well current book. And If I recall correctly the old Firebase didn't give them relentless either. So I have no idea what your talking about.
Whenever you used marker lights for them... They did nothing the army didn't already do in the next book besides add very costly big models. That's what I am saying
Nilok wrote: The Stormsurge was tested in several games before the reveal that the Destroyer Missile could be buffed to S D. It ended up destroying large swaths of the enemy armies it faced. By attaching an Early Warning Override to it, it become an even greater threat as the Drop Pod army had no safe place to land without being dakka'd to death.
Again this sounds good against things the army wasn't only good at but the best at in any of the books already. I agree the SS is pretty good. But yeah I've been saying that the whole time. What I am saying is they basically were like buy SS because that's what we are giving you and the ghostkeel and nothing else. Everything else will remain for friendly games and we will now relegate the Firebase Cadre to friendly games too since all competive players already have 12 boradsides. I'm not going to argue strat with anyone who thought that a list could be competitive and have more than 10 fire warriors in it. Anyone who thought that is just not on a competitive level
Can't you switch the flamers out? God I hope they werent bad enough not too
Really? So what other unit could put down two S10 AP2 large blasts a turn on a single unit?
And yes. Flamers on the 'surge can be swapped for TL burst cannons or TL airbursting things.
No but str 9 2 ap blasts were already in every list... Like I said tthe SS is okay. Wow I have said this literally for like 20 posts now. I was the one saying it was good way earlier in the thread at the first leak when everyone else was saying it sucked. Jeezums crows you guys coooome on
jakejackjake wrote: Whenever you used marker lights for them... They did nothing the army didn't already do in the next book besides add very costly big models. That's what I am saying
At no point in the history of the game have markerlights made broadsides relentless.
Unless you mean using MLs to increase the snap shot BS, in which case that's a waste of MLs.
jakejackjake wrote: Whenever you used marker lights for them... They did nothing the army didn't already do in the next book besides add very costly big models. That's what I am saying
At no point in the history of the game have markerlights made broadsides relentless.
Unless you mean using MLs to increase the snap shot BS, in which case that's a waste of MLs.
They increase their ballistic which is not a waste at all. I think I'm arguing strat with people who have no idea how to beat someone good at this game. The broadside and riptides were the only two competitve units. Using markers anywhere else before you got enough for whatever you needed on them was would be a waste. Have you people ever even look at GT lists that have won for Tau?
Where are using the marker lights? Skyrays? Not competitvie... Crisis suits... maybe if you dont need them on rips or broads... hammerheads? If you field hammerheads youre not competitve. Fire warriors? lol Stealth suits? lol The flyers? OMG
They don't what? They fething put out D shots man. D SHOTS!
This guy has GOT to be a troll. No one sane would deny the SS is now really good because of the D missiles.
Also they don't replace anything but supplement every niche of your army as well as offer D shots. Which is why you don't want too many SS too point intensive. Nothing is stopping you from fielding both an SS and tons of Broadsides and Riptides.
Gamgee wrote: They don't what? They fething put out D shots man. D SHOTS!
This guy has GOT to be a troll. No one sane would deny the SS is now really good because of the D missiles.
Also they don't replace anything but supplement every niche of your army as well as offer D shots. Which is why you don't want too many SS too point intensive. Nothing is stopping you from fielding both an SS and tons of Broadsides and Riptides.
IM GOING TO SAY THIS ONE MORE TIME. THE STORMSURGE IS GOOD. I've said it in every single post almost. Reading comprehension FTW. Also Gargantuans can still only fire two of it's weapons in a lot of circles of players right? There is no definitive ruling there unless it's new so im some circles it's the worst model in the game for it's points. But with the rules most people use it's pretty strong
Did anything, anything at all, in the tau army get WORSE?
Any abilities lost, any points increased?
The firebase cadre. The most competitive thing until this book drops. Besides that no it just didn't take them to competitve level of the other new books
Actually WD has said there will be a FAQ saying they can. Frontline gaming has also ruled it so.
There are die hard who try and twist it to their end, but they'll be poked off soon enough.
Edit
Your going to see Tau roll over tournaments and make a good impression at the big ones. Also the best of the best Tau tournament players used FSE/TE combo and now TE can do all of that and more in one book. I can see your a trend follower mein friend. Not a trend setter. You look for the best net list, use zero creativity and hunker down in the long run. It's okay not everyone has the ability to see beyond the now.
That's good I feel that ruling is correct and necessarry to not break models like tht and make them worthless
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm saying they made it so the new models are absolute necessities. Not just that they are good and new so I want them. If you take the game serious you have no choice if you want to play
No they didn't make lists like that. They were all FE and FBSC or TE and FBSC. There has not been one without it since it came out and there weren't any for like 7 months before it. Okay technically the FBSC is TE but it sounds like two CAD's the way you say it which is so far from ever being competitive at the moment.
Gamgee wrote: They don't what? They fething put out D shots man. D SHOTS!
This guy has GOT to be a troll. No one sane would deny the SS is now really good because of the D missiles.
Also they don't replace anything but supplement every niche of your army as well as offer D shots. Which is why you don't want too many SS too point intensive. Nothing is stopping you from fielding both an SS and tons of Broadsides and Riptides.
IM GOING TO SAY THIS ONE MORE TIME. THE STORMSURGE IS GOOD. I've said it in every single post almost. Reading comprehension FTW. Also Gargantuans can still only fire two of it's weapons in a lot of circles of players right? There is no definitive ruling there unless it's new so im some circles it's the worst model in the game for it's points. But with the rules most people use it's pretty strong
Did anything, anything at all, in the tau army get WORSE?
Any abilities lost, any points increased?
The firebase cadre. The most competitive thing until this book drops. Besides that no it just didn't take them to competitve level of the other new books
Also, why do you say the coldstar commander sucks?
Because he does. He's a free point to the enemy if they have a good way to take him down and a good list could basically ignore him otherwise. Unless you're going to make him a 300pt buffmander who can't shoot his guns, but that does not sound pts effiecient
Automatically Appended Next Post: Books is super strong if you drop $600 bucks and start modeling and painting immediately and don't leave your house until 2017 you can play a game using the now outdated 7ed Tau codex. The money doesn't bother me. I was set to buy the limited edition codex and everything. The fact that it will be months before I can even field the full list is insane when I already have like 10 of everything or more from 6th. Its just crazy to me that it's the only book to have this happen. This is coming from someone who plays every single army that has a new book from Necrons on.
The reason broadsides aren't as good is because firebase isn't as good. Basically it makes you take more riptides per broadsides or forces you to shoot 600 pts or more at one unit. So basically it's worthless
jakejackjake wrote: Whenever you used marker lights for them... They did nothing the army didn't already do in the next book besides add very costly big models. That's what I am saying
At no point in the history of the game have markerlights made broadsides relentless.
Unless you mean using MLs to increase the snap shot BS, in which case that's a waste of MLs.
They increase their ballistic which is not a waste at all. I think I'm arguing strat with people who have no idea how to beat someone good at this game. The broadside and riptides were the only two competitve units. Using markers anywhere else before you got enough for whatever you needed on them was would be a waste. Have you people ever even look at GT lists that have won for Tau?
Where are using the marker lights? Skyrays? Not competitvie... Crisis suits... maybe if you dont need them on rips or broads... hammerheads? If you field hammerheads youre not competitve. Fire warriors? lol Stealth suits? lol The flyers? OMG
In the 4e codex, there was a support system to make Broadsides Slow and Purposeful, which allowed them to move and shoot, at the cost of not being able to overwatch, which was removed in the 6e codex.
In the 7e codex, we have three replacement options. We can either place them on a Shieldline and have that move for them, we can place them in the deep strike formation which does give them relentless, or we can use them in the Hunter Cadre which allows them to run before shooting, which doesn't cause them to shoot snapshots.
In my games with the Riptide, it did some damage and was a great distraction, but it was my three man Crisis suit team with a Buffmander, which I called the Scalpel Team, that were the real stars of my army, detonating vehicles and shredding heavy infantry on landing, and the commander taking out enemy warlords Big O style with the Onagar Gauntlet. The Broadsides were good, but they are weight of fire and wait until the enemy fails their saves, while a correctly setup Crisis Team was feared by Eldar, IG, Necron, and Space Marine alike as they gutted everything they targeted.
With the ability to spread the Buffmander out between more units and use Split Fire, Target Locks, and the GC rule to spread out the fire from the main target, it will be even more potent. I imagine it would be the Tau version of the Dai Gurren-dan Shot from the first TTGL movie.
The idea you swap moving and shooting for the ability to overwatch on an army with supporting fire is just dumb. It's good they took it out since it shouldn't have been used.
Is running and shooting as good as tank hunter? Even if you have to bring a min of of 200 in tax...? No its not I don't think but it could be we will see.
Serious question since I don't have the screen shot here. is it 1-3 fast attack or does it mention specific options? Also you can't take tetras which is a big deal. No matter what pathfinders will always suck. They only get relentless if they deepstrike too which again is lolworthy
Gamgee wrote:I agree the coldstar is a disaster. No explanation needed.
jakejackjake wrote:Because he does. He's a free point to the enemy if they have a good way to take him down and a good list could basically ignore him otherwise. Unless you're going to make him a 300pt buffmander who can't shoot his guns, but that does not sound pts effiecient
Automatically Appended Next Post: Books is super strong if you drop $600 bucks and start modeling and painting immediately and don't leave your house until 2017 you can play a game using the now outdated 7ed Tau codex. The money doesn't bother me. I was set to buy the limited edition codex and everything. The fact that it will be months before I can even field the full list is insane when I already have like 10 of everything or more from 6th. Its just crazy to me that it's the only book to have this happen
The reason broadsides aren't as good is because firebase isn't as good. Basically it makes you take more riptides per broadsides or forces you to shoot 600 pts or more at one unit. So basically it's worthless
I don't necessarily think he sucks, but running him solo is quite a point investment (like stormsurge points). I mean, you'd need the coldstar, iridium armor, shield generator, stims, although it's not clear to me if you can swap out the coldstar weapons.
Assuming you can't take sig systems or other weapons, the coldstar blows and isn't even really worth the paper the rules are printed on.
So now your complaint is that it costs money to play... 40k.
Please excuse me while I laugh in your general vicinity.
Whine and moan all you want. All the things that were in the book got better (including the FBSC despite your incorrect assertions) and the new things are also good. Tau is a strong book and probably a meta breaker. Just because it requires people to snag a few extra models doesn't change that fact.
Don't play a game like 40k aand then cry when they encourage you to buy more models. It's really poor form.
Lol at the firebase being better. It's not even good anymore. This looks to me to be without a doubt the most poorly done release since the new style of book started coming. The cover of the book is the prettiest though! I've gone through your strat posts for the last 10 minutes and sure man sure whatever you want to believe but I will no longer be tkaing you seriously when you tell someone a list with
You play necron as well and so do I. We disagree a lot there too on whats best.
jakejackjake wrote: The idea you swap moving and shooting for the ability to overwatch on an army with supporting fire is just dumb. It's good they took it out since it shouldn't have been used.
Is running and shooting as good as tank hunter? Even if you have to bring a min of of 200 in tax...? No its not I don't think but it could be we will see.
Serious question since I don't have the screen shot here. is it 1-3 fast attack or does it mention specific options? Also you can't take tetras which is a big deal. No matter what pathfinders will always suck. They only get relentless if they deepstrike too which again is lolworthy
In the 4e Tau Codex, supporting fire did not exist, so it is a mute point. You also could not use markerlights to buff snapshots in the 4e codex.
Use the Buffmander and Target Locks to split the fire, give them Ignore Cover, and Tank Hunter or Monster Hunter? The Tau are built around cross unit support, don't expect it to just spoon feed it all to you, sometimes you actually need to look and plan your support in your army instead of just inside a single unit.
The Hunter Cadre is limited to exact choices, so no Forge World units. Most likely Forge World is going to release an errata/new Tau IA book to address this.
I will say its's... good. And it was "buffed" in a sense that it has monster hunter, but the fact that every model has to hit one target really does take away its effectiveness.
It's just not as good as it used to be. It is cheaper but it's not worth the effect of tank hunter/monster hunter on a few units when it was the weight of fire making those units in question good.
So you are right on the nail on the Coldstar and the Firebase. Which is rather funny since I started my Tau career by purchasing the original Firebase bundle a codex, and some FW.
I would rather have relentless broadsidess than forcing all of them to shoot at one target.
Also it's not the fact that it's relentless but it also deep strikes and makes them even better in that regard. Knights can be flanked now with Broadsides. Even if you don't want the Broadside you can just take one as a "tax" to have so much guaranteed XV8's drop on turn 2. Then field regular Broadside sin the Hunter Cadre.
TL mean no EWO... neither of those will confer either obv because they never do. THAT would be awesome. That would make this probably way too strong. If literally all special rules even those that didnt normal confer could confer to everything consolidating it's fire
Its cheaper if you remove massive amounts of firepower. The broadsides were in no way a tax. There was no reason to want to remove them. 6 isn't even enough in most lists. Honestly they should have just flat out gave it monster hunter. That would have been just about what it needed to be close to top tier
Also 0 reason to ever deepstrike a broadside if it didn't make them relentless they're insanely effective turn 1 and easy to give cover/invuls to In your last post this is really the only thing I don't agree with just because I can't see myself doing anything but deepstriking them to similar areas of the board I'd have deployed them anyway. I will absolutely never deepstrike broadsides to an enemy backfield or mid field unless the deployment is not dawn of war
Cliffnotes: of all posts. SS is good without it book is okay and you could beat people you outclass with the other books probably but not on equal footing codex vs codex I do actually think the ghostkeel can be used well too but again its just the new models and thats pretty much it.
Sorry for coming off as a combative jerk. I'm not going to make excuses I just come off that way at times. I probably am one and I apologize for that kind of attitude. It's not really necessary
Uh is your native language English? Every time you post I feel twice as confused. If it's not I'm just going to leave. If it is I'm still going to leave, but recommend you brush up on your English skills. I have no idea what your trying to say.
I have to agree with jakejackjake here, in theory all this combined fire sounds nice, but when the hell do you ever use this? Other than firing at a deathstar or something, which I personally have never done. And even if you work around this with TL's, you are paying with TL's on almost every single model that can, and this adds up (in my 1500 points list I already didn't have room for them).
Gamgee wrote: Uh is your native language English? Every time you post I feel twice as confused. If it's not I'm just going to leave. If it is I'm still going to leave, but recommend you brush up on your English skills. I have no idea what your trying to say.
jakejackjake wrote: TL mean no EWO... it also means you have to decide if you're going to shoot it at another unit or not and stick to it, because regardless you have to nominate the unit the model with TL will shoot at as well before anyone in the unit actually rolls dice. TL's are great but it means larger units to take effect making the hunter cadre super expensive.
Or you can have your BS 3 Twin-Linked, Ignore Cover missile drone(s) fire at the main target and your Broadsides shoot everything else. The loss of EWO is a loss, but it functions better on the Riptide and Stormsurge. While the loss of S7 on the Stormsurge is hard, the sheer number of S5 shot, with the options of S10 and possibly S8 and room for Skyfire and an Invulnerable save, it should be a significant threat to any AV 11 vehicles (most flyers) and any infantry.
McNinja wrote: So can the coldstar take additional/replace his weapons and take signature systems, or no?
Gamgee wrote: Uh is your native language English? Every time you post I feel twice as confused. If it's not I'm just going to leave. If it is I'm still going to leave, but recommend you brush up on your English skills. I have no idea what your trying to say.
Okay first to the other guy I said "TL's mean no EWO"
Then to you I said it's cheaper for the FBSC but only at removal of some broadsides which you don't really want to remove. Consolidating three units firing on one is terrible. If the first one kills it you can't shoot the other two units. So against it's only really good at killing things you'd want three broadsides for. For the most part deepstriking broadsides is a terrible idea.
Then I said Cliffnotes: New codex looks meh besides the two new big suits
Then I said sorry if I was being combative, aggressive and jerky. I don't plan on ever posting in better grammar than that if it isn't something professional so if it still illegible that's fine
jakejackjake wrote: TL mean no EWO... it also means you have to decide if you're going to shoot it at another unit or not and stick to it, because regardless you have to nominate the unit the model with TL will shoot at as well before anyone in the unit actually rolls dice. TL's are great but it means larger units to take effect making the hunter cadre super expensive.
Or you can have your BS 3 Twin-Linked, Ignore Cover missile drone(s) fire at the main target and your Broadsides shoot everything else. The loss of EWO is a loss, but it functions better on the Riptide and Stormsurge. While the loss of S7 on the Stormsurge is hard, the sheer number of S5 shot, with the options of S10 and possibly S8 and room for Skyfire and an Invulnerable save, it should be a significant threat to any AV 11 vehicles (most flyers) and any infantry.
McNinja wrote: So can the coldstar take additional/replace his weapons and take signature systems, or no?
No, only two support systems.
You take drones with broadsides? Did they change in the new book because anyone competitve laughed at them in 6th so not sure if you mean to talk competitve lists or cool fluffy lists The EWO amazing on broadsides. It gives you target lock where you get to decide how many models and which of their guns you want to fire. It's incredibly amazing on broadsides. It's the only support system you should really every get on them in in TE6th nothing else at all is reasonable in a TAC list... nothing
McNinja wrote: So can the coldstar take additional/replace his weapons and take signature systems, or no?
No, only two support systems.
In that case, the only reason to take the coldstar is if you really wanted to move some ML drones across the field each turn. It can't be used offensively, because it sucks.
Okay that's all much more legible. Thanks. Maybe put a little @Gamgee or @ person whoever your individual sentences refer to. Helps a lot.
The new codex is meh because it's the same thing basically. You get much more bang for your buck in Kayon and using your old one. At least from that perspective. GW even sold it that way though so I'm not that disappointed now. I was when I thought we were going to get terrible formations that weren't good enough to buff our units to tournament play.
From a rules perspective many of the new formations are insane and will see high level play. Hunter Cadre+ Stormsurge for sure since it's our only really effective way to handle deathstars and Knights and equivalently strong things. On top of that it lets you field less in other departments of the army since you can now spend points on other things.
Nothing stopping you from taking 6 Broadsides with all of this crazy stuff. I know I'm going to.
So from the rules perspective it is very good. I just wish some of the units that needed buffs got them to make them more playable even if it was only for casual games.
Also when I was referring to the FBSC I should have specified that it's minimum cost is now cheaper since you can take it with 2 Broadsides and a Riptide. I then went on to say why that reduced initial cost is not a good idea and not enough of a buff to make up for the loss of individual unit targeting. Even with the addition of MH to the formation it's still nowhere near as good as it was when all your units could fire at different targets.
I wasn't disagreeing with you on the FSBC, what I did say though is since the FSBC is no longer that good I would rather have Broadsides of some kind in the Retaliation cadre since you will likely be hitting the rears of enemies.. Or if my build called for it just Broadsides and no Retaliation Cadre.
Retaliation Cadre has the potential to be tournament worthy, but that remains to be seen. It's one of the better formations we have.
Do I think it has a niche? Maybe. It's definitely not as good as sit used to be though.
I'm probably in the minority who thinks Str D is terrible for the regular points games and makes them more luck based on an individual game level(well that's not really an opinion it does increase the variance on an individual game level dramatically). In larger pts games this is negated by sheer size of the armies and the amount of dice rolled
I know I know GW doesn't care about the gamers just the modelers. I know they say it directly. I'm not surprised it just sucks for someone like me
You are. Nothing says you can't still drop some suits behind the target of the Str D shots to guarantee its death. I wouldn't rely on the SS alone in that regard. It also takes pressure off your other units. People are going to want to kill it fast, which lets you maneuver your agile forces better to strike the target of the D Weapon or just in general flanking the enemy to put pressure on him. There's too many additional benefits to the SS to not take one especially with the D shot missiles that makes it far more valuable than an entire team of broadsides.
@gamgee I think you actually missed the point I was making. I mean Str D being on the table period makes the game more luck based when a single lucky 6 can remove a 360 pt model. It increases the variance in low pts cost games (anytihng under save 4k) by a massive margin. One lucky shot can end the game in a tournament list. So on a long term basis still lots of skill but in a singular game the variance will be higher. I mean them moving the D over from apoc games was a great ploy to sell models but it's not good for smaller games really. It's good in the sense it's powerful it's bad in the way it impacts the variance of the game. Makes luck have a slightly larger role than it already does.
I know you missed the point because you thought I was saying the SS isn't good when all I've been saying is in the 7th ed book the army is unplayable without it
jakejackjake wrote: TL mean no EWO... it also means you have to decide if you're going to shoot it at another unit or not and stick to it, because regardless you have to nominate the unit the model with TL will shoot at as well before anyone in the unit actually rolls dice. TL's are great but it means larger units to take effect making the hunter cadre super expensive.
Or you can have your BS 3 Twin-Linked, Ignore Cover missile drone(s) fire at the main target and your Broadsides shoot everything else. The loss of EWO is a loss, but it functions better on the Riptide and Stormsurge. While the loss of S7 on the Stormsurge is hard, the sheer number of S5 shot, with the options of S10 and possibly S8 and room for Skyfire and an Invulnerable save, it should be a significant threat to any AV 11 vehicles (most flyers) and any infantry.
McNinja wrote: So can the coldstar take additional/replace his weapons and take signature systems, or no?
No, only two support systems.
You take drones with broadsides? Did they change in the new book because anyone competitve laughed at them in 6th so not sure if you mean to talk competitve lists or cool fluffy lists The EWO amazing on broadsides. It gives you target lock where you get to decide how many models and which of their guns you want to fire. It's incredibly amazing on broadsides. It's the only support system you should really every get on them in in TE6th nothing else at all is reasonable in a TAC list... nothing
I find if I have the points, taking missile drones is a great advantage since I can use them to soak wounds for the Broadsides from low AP/ignore cover weapons while increasing their damage output. Otherwise they get focused way too fast and gutted due to their lack of invulnerable save and high target priority.
I didn't really need them for my take all comers lists, as my Riptide, Skyray, Crisis Suits, Sniper Kroot, and Fire Warriors could often hold their own with correct support and deployment. Often I found it was more advantageous to load them with Skyfire if I did take them so they could remove pesky flyers from the board without wasting my markerlights. I ended up replacing them with an ECPA HBC Riptide who then was used to swat Vendettas and Vultures out of the sky while laughing them off, eventually killing himself to an unlucky Nova Charge.
The EWO is good on Broadsides, but it is overshadowed by EWO on the Riptide, and soon the Stormsurge. Many times I've had Terminators drop in close to my castle and just get annihilated by a well placed large blast and SMS. I see no reason the Stormsurge would be any different.
Your sentences seems to be both disagreeing with me and agreeing with me about Target Locks. Perhaps you should get some sleep.
You lose 1 drone and have to take a leadership test than youre 200 pt unit runs off the board
Youre talking about playing against terminators. You don't play in a competitive meta. So it's easy for sub par things to perform against one of the worst units in the game aka terminators
jakejackjake wrote: You lose 1 drone and have to take a leadership test than youre 200 pt unit runs off the board
Run an Ethereal in your second HQ slot and put him in a Devilfish. AV 12 that gives everyone Ld 10. If you aren't playing synergy with Tau, you are handicapping yourself.
Also, why are they so close to the edge of the board? I saw an Ork player do that with his Lootas and scared them off the edge with my railguns (4e Broadsides) and have never made that mistake.
jakejackjake wrote: You lose 1 drone and have to take a leadership test than youre 200 pt unit runs off the board
Run an Ethereal in your second HQ slot and put him in a Devilfish. AV 12 that gives everyone Ld 10. If you aren't playing synergy with Tau, you are handicapping yourself.
I generall just tuck him with the broadside unit or something and hide him for the entire game. I've NEVER lost an ethereal I'm really good at planning positioning and anticipating the movement in the opponents next turn. The devilfish is too many pts. I'm a very good Tau player. I understand the army. The amount of times I've lost with Tau is less then balls youve had. Missile drones are never competitve
If you're playing dawn of war deployment and are further than 12" fromt he board edge on turn 1 I have no idea what you're doing unless your opponent is going second
jakejackjake wrote: @gamgee I think you actually missed the point I was making. I mean Str D being on the table period makes the game more luck based when a single lucky 6 can remove a 360 pt model. It increases the variance in low pts cost games (anytihng under save 4k) by a massive margin. One lucky shot can end the game in a tournament list. So on a long term basis still lots of skill but in a singular game the variance will be higher. I mean them moving the D over from apoc games was a great ploy to sell models but it's not good for smaller games really. It's good in the sense it's powerful it's bad in the way it impacts the variance of the game. Makes luck have a slightly larger role than it already does.
I know you missed the point because you thought I was saying the SS isn't good when all I've been saying is in the 7th ed book the army is unplayable without it
It kinda came across as YEAH ITS GOOD EVERYTHING IS GOOD feth THIS CODEX feth TAU.
Anyway, The retaliation cadre is really the only one I would ever use. It allows me to not only purchase the minimum models (and by models I mean gundam stand-ins), but is the most effective for what it does. I could also put Farsight in with the crisis suits and not scatter.
If you deepstrike that whole formation you are a TERRIBLE tau player. I'm not even going to elaborate on that. It shouldn't need it.
Do you have to deepstrike the entire formation if you choose to deepstrike? And is that the only way they get relelntless or do they automatically get it? Deepstriking riptides or broadsides is just bad. I find being better at deployment and the movement phase/jetpack thrust planning is far superior for a Rip
jakejackjake wrote: @gamgee I think you actually missed the point I was making. I mean Str D being on the table period makes the game more luck based when a single lucky 6 can remove a 360 pt model. It increases the variance in low pts cost games (anytihng under save 4k) by a massive margin. One lucky shot can end the game in a tournament list. So on a long term basis still lots of skill but in a singular game the variance will be higher. I mean them moving the D over from apoc games was a great ploy to sell models but it's not good for smaller games really. It's good in the sense it's powerful it's bad in the way it impacts the variance of the game. Makes luck have a slightly larger role than it already does.
I know you missed the point because you thought I was saying the SS isn't good when all I've been saying is in the 7th ed book the army is unplayable without it
I'm not here to debate if it was a good idea to implement D weapons in the base version or not. I'm simply using the rules and the ITC guidelines to shape a list that's good in this meta. Also your right I did miss the point.
The thing hurting us the most in tournaments and kicking us down the rankings as a faction was deathstars and GMC/Big Things. We used to be viable before that started happening. We still had trouble with them, but they weren't so insanely powerful that our existing options weren't enough. However as time went by they were no longer enough due to power creep. So i think what this all comes down to is not the Stormsurge being necessary, but a symptom of something deeper with your argument. The SS was made and sold because it filled the only gap left in our army. We still have soft counters in the form of fusion blasters and the stealth suit formations as well.
The SS is not what ails you, it's the way they make the game and market it and have this constant power creep. That's the real thing that needs to bbe solved. Or else there will simply be another SS tomorrow for Tau instead of them sensibly trying to take a look at rules and make changes to the codex on a more broadish level. It affects every army. Not just Tau. So don't blame the SS. Blame GW and their power creep.
Also bringing D weapons is not luck. it's guaranteed damage even on a low hit that makes it through that's a lot od damage with the bonus of basically killing anything. Which is why the SS must be supported so it doesn't rely on luck. But that would be where the Commander takes cover wouldn't and has to logically think how he will finish off things the D shots have wounded. I and no one else can play for a person in that regard.
Edit
The Riptide I plan to drop won't have a Stim Injector. Doesn't need it since it's a flanker and not meant to command the board. My SS will be doing that.
jakejackjake wrote: If you deepstrike that whole formation you are a TERRIBLE tau player. I'm not even going to elaborate on that. It shouldn't need it.
Do you have to deepstrike the entire formation if you choose to deepstrike? And is that the only way they get relelntless or do they automatically get it? Deepstriking riptides or broadsides is just bad. I find being better at deployment and the movement phase/jetpack thrust planning is far superior for a Rip
Yup. If you choose to do so, you have to deploy the whole formation at the start of your second turn as per deep strike. So, as far as you're concerned, all that formation is good for is the Relentless is grants all of the units in it?
I wonder what you think of three ghostkeels with farsight deep striking, then assaulting
McNinja wrote: The dude from the Dawn of War games is alive and well, facerolling with the Ghostkeels.
Thought you meant Kais from Firewarrior, 'cause that'd be quite interesting.
According to the Relic Entertainment's developer commentary, the developers of Dark Crusade, he is the same Kais from Fire Warrior, recovered physically and mentally after killing/banishing a Greater Daemon of Tzeentchh and promoted to Shas'O. Chronologically it makes no sense, but this if 40k after all.
anyone with the new xv8 kit that could provide photos of the new sprue sets?I was curious to know if both knees and elbows are articulated or still fixed.
aracersss wrote: anyone with the new xv8 kit that could provide photos of the new sprue sets?I was curious to know if both knees and elbows are articulated or still fixed.
jakejackjake wrote: If you deepstrike that whole formation you are a TERRIBLE tau player. I'm not even going to elaborate on that. It shouldn't need it.
Do you have to deepstrike the entire formation if you choose to deepstrike? And is that the only way they get relelntless or do they automatically get it? Deepstriking riptides or broadsides is just bad. I find being better at deployment and the movement phase/jetpack thrust planning is far superior for a Rip
If you want turn 2 arrival, they have to all strike. Otherwise you can pick and choose.
Of course, pairing it with a Stealth Cadre to make an all-suits two formation army gives you two infiltrating homing beacons, so you can just slam down all your units flawlessly anyhow.
McNinja wrote: The dude from the Dawn of War games is alive and well, facerolling with the Ghostkeels.
Thought you meant Kais from Firewarrior, 'cause that'd be quite interesting.
According to the Relic Entertainment's developer commentary, the developers of Dark Crusade, he is the same Kais from Fire Warrior, recovered physically and mentally after killing/banishing a Greater Daemon of Tzeentchh and promoted to Shas'O. Chronologically it makes no sense, but this if 40k after all.
Now that's actually interesting given I loved that game and book.......... tell me more
jakejackjake wrote: If you deepstrike that whole formation you are a TERRIBLE tau player. I'm not even going to elaborate on that. It shouldn't need it.
Do you have to deepstrike the entire formation if you choose to deepstrike? And is that the only way they get relelntless or do they automatically get it? Deepstriking riptides or broadsides is just bad. I find being better at deployment and the movement phase/jetpack thrust planning is far superior for a Rip
Yup. If you choose to do so, you have to deploy the whole formation at the start of your second turn as per deep strike. So, as far as you're concerned, all that formation is good for is the Relentless is grants all of the units in it?
Crap.
Infiltration Cadre becomes more and more interesting then. A costly tax, but then I don't need to DS Riptides or Broadsides.
jakejackjake wrote: If you deepstrike that whole formation you are a TERRIBLE tau player. I'm not even going to elaborate on that. It shouldn't need it.
Do you have to deepstrike the entire formation if you choose to deepstrike? And is that the only way they get relelntless or do they automatically get it? Deepstriking riptides or broadsides is just bad. I find being better at deployment and the movement phase/jetpack thrust planning is far superior for a Rip
Yup. If you choose to do so, you have to deploy the whole formation at the start of your second turn as per deep strike. So, as far as you're concerned, all that formation is good for is the Relentless is grants all of the units in it?
Crap.
Infiltration Cadre becomes more and more interesting then. A costly tax, but then I don't need to DS Riptides or Broadsides.
Plus if you're going second and the enemy kills one of your units (first blood wooo) your entire army in reserve comes into play on your FIRST TURN.
Plus if you're going second and the enemy kills one of your units (first blood wooo) your entire army in reserve comes into play on your FIRST TURN.
Except that your opponent will know exactly that that would happen so he just happily lets that one crappy unit live, takes all the objectives and killing the rest of your army while you sit there hoping your stuff comes out of reserves .
Plus if you're going second and the enemy kills one of your units (first blood wooo) your entire army in reserve comes into play on your FIRST TURN.
Except that your opponent will know exactly that that would happen so he just happily lets that one crappy unit live, takes all the objectives and killing the rest of your army while you sit there hoping your stuff comes out of reserves .
Not quite - if they kill anything from the infiltration cadre, the entire army comes in from reserves on our next turn (so turn 1 if going 2nd). The stealthsuits, piranha, and pathfinders will be the only things on the table to start so anything they try to get first blood from will trigger the SUITSTORM. If they decline to remove any of our units from the table, then on our turn 2 the retaliation cadre deep strikes in automatically - using homing beacons from the stealthsuits and recon drones so they don't scatter and mishap. I think it could really work as a null-deploy (kind of) army with a great beta-strike potential. Not to mention that any pathfinders that get 3 or more markerlight hits will cause a free s8 ap3 hit as well.
jakejackjake wrote: After looking at the new book they didn't give the Tau anything they didn't have already except a Garg and even that is just Str 5 spam and low AP big blast which The entire army and riptides already did really easily. I see nothing of value and they nerfed the firebase which was literally the ONLY reason Tau could play competitively. Kind of a disappointment actually So I'm glad they won't let me get the limited edition
This does not bring the Tau to new marine or Eldar level. They're actually just in the same exact spot but with more options. The formations do not compensate for the taxes you have to take the way the marines ones do. I'm not taking 600 pts in trash to make my my one unit that doesn't suck in the formation better which is what I see in those. The gladius or Lion's blade has immediate win pontential that can clearly be seen. These do not. I don't mind being forced to take bad units but I do not see how this can be competitive.
Sorry, but you lost ALL credibility with that statement lol
Str D missiles?
2+ cover save MC?
INSANE formations sharing all special rules?
Nothing new... hahaha
McNinja wrote: The dude from the Dawn of War games is alive and well, facerolling with the Ghostkeels.
Thought you meant Kais from Firewarrior, 'cause that'd be quite interesting.
According to the Relic Entertainment's developer commentary, the developers of Dark Crusade, he is the same Kais from Fire Warrior, recovered physically and mentally after killing/banishing a Greater Daemon of Tzeentchh and promoted to Shas'O. Chronologically it makes no sense, but this if 40k after all.
Now that's actually interesting given I loved that game and book.......... tell me more
Sadly not much more. There is some contention about who Shas'O Kais is, as there may be two of him, Shas'o Vior'la Kais (in the Tau Codex) and Shas'la/Shas'o T'au Kais (from Fire Warrior and Dark Crusade), though this may be an error/retcon for Kais by GW.
From what I gather, Kais was able to make a recovery and become a student of Puretide shortly before his death (dates are really fuzzy here) and became one of Puretide's top three students alongside Farsight and Shadowsun, focused around a specific tactic like them. In some time before 103.999.M41, he was awakened and took the planet that would become the Fi'rios sept.
Kais specialized in using minimum resources to achieve spectacular results, similar to how he performed in Fire Warrior (with possible Chaos aid), the capture of Fi'rios, and in the Dark Crusade, being forced to both play offensive commander and bodyguard to his Ethereal. Kais was able to cripple both the Ork and Eldar forces on Kronus, and was fighting a bitter battle with the IG when a rapid strike from the Blood Ravens assassinated the Ethereal. Kais was forced to withdraw as his forces were crushed with the loss. He is one of the four surviving commanders of Kronus.
Kais is also the only commander who isn't anin the Dark Crusade as he is portrayed as a noblebright commander, in contrast the Tau commander in the next game Soulstorm, Or'es'Ka, who is very much a That Guy in the campaign and basically inspired the KX-139 Ta'unar and KV-128 Stormsurge with his "Great Strength, Great Strike" tactic.
Except that your opponent will know exactly that that would happen so he just happily lets that one crappy unit live, takes all the objectives and killing the rest of your army while you sit there hoping your stuff comes out of reserves .
That or only have members of the Infiltration Cadre on the field, it's a pretty open formation in the number of units you can field after all.
Full units of pathfinders, stealth teams, and piranhas would run you up a fair amount.
That way, your opponent can't shoot anything lest it be destroyed and you RAIN BATTLESUITS UPON HIS REGRETFUL HEAD
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MoD_Legion wrote: According to what I read on page 1 only the infiltration cadre will come from reserves when you kill something:
'Rules: If one unit of the formation is destroyed, rest of the formation enters from reserve next turn automatically. '
So the rest of your army still comes on turn 2 at the earliest.
Not quite, the rule specifically says:
'If a unit from this Formation is completely destroyed, you can activate the Formation’s Intervention Request Beacons. If you do so, all units you have remaining in Reserve arrive at the start of your next turn (there is no need to roll for them).' (emphasis added)
Pretty clear - all of your units you have remaining in reserve come on next turn, otherwise they would've specified 'units within this formation' or suchlike.
Not that it helps the Retaliation Cadre much - it always comes on turn 2 anyway, so killing a unit from the Infiltration Cadre isn't going to do anything.
Now if you were just deepstriking a metric tonne of Riptides instead...
Not that it helps the Retaliation Cadre much - it always comes on turn 2 anyway, so killing a unit from the Infiltration Cadre isn't going to do anything.
Now if you were just deepstriking a metric tonne of Riptides instead...
In one instance it does matter - if the tau player is going second he could potentially get all his reserves turn 1 at the cost of losing first blood. aside from that it's going to rain suits on turn 2 with the retaliation cadre. It also means you can just take a CAD if you preferred but for a suit list the retaliation cadre is a pretty darn good formation.
Not that it helps the Retaliation Cadre much - it always comes on turn 2 anyway, so killing a unit from the Infiltration Cadre isn't going to do anything.
Now if you were just deepstriking a metric tonne of Riptides instead...
In one instance it does matter - if the tau player is going second he could potentially get all his reserves turn 1 at the cost of losing first blood. aside from that it's going to rain suits on turn 2 with the retaliation cadre. It also means you can just take a CAD if you preferred but for a suit list the retaliation cadre is a pretty darn good formation.
Also, you can always opt to not use the retaliation cadres turn 2 rule. They don't need to use the automatic turn 2 deep strike to gain Relentless or the +1BS.
Not that it helps the Retaliation Cadre much - it always comes on turn 2 anyway, so killing a unit from the Infiltration Cadre isn't going to do anything.
Now if you were just deepstriking a metric tonne of Riptides instead...
In one instance it does matter - if the tau player is going second he could potentially get all his reserves turn 1 at the cost of losing first blood. aside from that it's going to rain suits on turn 2 with the retaliation cadre. It also means you can just take a CAD if you preferred but for a suit list the retaliation cadre is a pretty darn good formation.
If this is the case, why not just put one unit on the table and if it gets destroyed, then awesome. If not, at least you don't auto-lose. Could be a very solid option to counter alpha-strike style armies.
Plus if you're going second and the enemy kills one of your units (first blood wooo) your entire army in reserve comes into play on your FIRST TURN.
Except that your opponent will know exactly that that would happen so he just happily lets that one crappy unit live, takes all the objectives and killing the rest of your army while you sit there hoping your stuff comes out of reserves .
For the retaliation Cadre, you don't have to hope. It automatically arrives on your turn 2.
Gamgee wrote:I agree the coldstar is a disaster. No explanation needed.
jakejackjake wrote:Because he does. He's a free point to the enemy if they have a good way to take him down and a good list could basically ignore him otherwise. Unless you're going to make him a 300pt buffmander who can't shoot his guns, but that does not sound pts effiecient
Automatically Appended Next Post: Books is super strong if you drop $600 bucks and start modeling and painting immediately and don't leave your house until 2017 you can play a game using the now outdated 7ed Tau codex. The money doesn't bother me. I was set to buy the limited edition codex and everything. The fact that it will be months before I can even field the full list is insane when I already have like 10 of everything or more from 6th. Its just crazy to me that it's the only book to have this happen
The reason broadsides aren't as good is because firebase isn't as good. Basically it makes you take more riptides per broadsides or forces you to shoot 600 pts or more at one unit. So basically it's worthless
I don't necessarily think he sucks, but running him solo is quite a point investment (like stormsurge points). I mean, you'd need the coldstar, iridium armor, shield generator, stims, although it's not clear to me if you can swap out the coldstar weapons.
What is your plan to have both the coldstar and iridium armor on the commander?
Assuming you can't take sig systems or other weapons, the coldstar blows and isn't even really worth the paper the rules are printed on.
That being the case the FMC commander is practically useless.
jakejackjake wrote: @gamgee I think you actually missed the point I was making. I mean Str D being on the table period makes the game more luck based when a single lucky 6 can remove a 360 pt model. It increases the variance in low pts cost games (anytihng under save 4k) by a massive margin. One lucky shot can end the game in a tournament list. So on a long term basis still lots of skill but in a singular game the variance will be higher. I mean them moving the D over from apoc games was a great ploy to sell models but it's not good for smaller games really. It's good in the sense it's powerful it's bad in the way it impacts the variance of the game. Makes luck have a slightly larger role than it already does.
I know you missed the point because you thought I was saying the SS isn't good when all I've been saying is in the 7th ed book the army is unplayable without it
I'm not here to debate if it was a good idea to implement D weapons in the base version or not. I'm simply using the rules and the ITC guidelines to shape a list that's good in this meta. Also your right I did miss the point.
The thing hurting us the most in tournaments and kicking us down the rankings as a faction was deathstars and GMC/Big Things. We used to be viable before that started happening. We still had trouble with them, but they weren't so insanely powerful that our existing options weren't enough. However as time went by they were no longer enough due to power creep. So i think what this all comes down to is not the Stormsurge being necessary, but a symptom of something deeper with your argument. The SS was made and sold because it filled the only gap left in our army. We still have soft counters in the form of fusion blasters and the stealth suit formations as well.
The SS is not what ails you, it's the way they make the game and market it and have this constant power creep. That's the real thing that needs to bbe solved. Or else there will simply be another SS tomorrow for Tau instead of them sensibly trying to take a look at rules and make changes to the codex on a more broadish level. It affects every army. Not just Tau. So don't blame the SS. Blame GW and their power creep.
Also bringing D weapons is not luck. it's guaranteed damage even on a low hit that makes it through that's a lot od damage with the bonus of basically killing anything. Which is why the SS must be supported so it doesn't rely on luck. But that would be where the Commander takes cover wouldn't and has to logically think how he will finish off things the D shots have wounded. I and no one else can play for a person in that regard.
Edit
The Riptide I plan to drop won't have a Stim Injector. Doesn't need it since it's a flanker and not meant to command the board. My SS will be doing that.
The SS fills that gap terribly. You're relying on 4 shots for that... Against things with invuls typically or 8 wounds so you absolutely need a "remove from play" roll
jakejackjake wrote: If you deepstrike that whole formation you are a TERRIBLE tau player. I'm not even going to elaborate on that. It shouldn't need it.
Do you have to deepstrike the entire formation if you choose to deepstrike? And is that the only way they get relelntless or do they automatically get it? Deepstriking riptides or broadsides is just bad. I find being better at deployment and the movement phase/jetpack thrust planning is far superior for a Rip
Yup. If you choose to do so, you have to deploy the whole formation at the start of your second turn as per deep strike. So, as far as you're concerned, all that formation is good for is the Relentless is grants all of the units in it?
I wonder what you think of three ghostkeels with farsight deep striking, then assaulting
jakejackjake wrote: If you deepstrike that whole formation you are a TERRIBLE tau player. I'm not even going to elaborate on that. It shouldn't need it.
Do you have to deepstrike the entire formation if you choose to deepstrike? And is that the only way they get relelntless or do they automatically get it? Deepstriking riptides or broadsides is just bad. I find being better at deployment and the movement phase/jetpack thrust planning is far superior for a Rip
If you want turn 2 arrival, they have to all strike. Otherwise you can pick and choose.
Of course, pairing it with a Stealth Cadre to make an all-suits two formation army gives you two infiltrating homing beacons, so you can just slam down all your units flawlessly anyhow.
deepstriking that many points is the most awful thing I've ever heard unless you have things that come down turn 1 aka marines
jakejackjake wrote: @gamgee I think you actually missed the point I was making. I mean Str D being on the table period makes the game more luck based when a single lucky 6 can remove a 360 pt model. It increases the variance in low pts cost games (anytihng under save 4k) by a massive margin. One lucky shot can end the game in a tournament list. So on a long term basis still lots of skill but in a singular game the variance will be higher. I mean them moving the D over from apoc games was a great ploy to sell models but it's not good for smaller games really. It's good in the sense it's powerful it's bad in the way it impacts the variance of the game. Makes luck have a slightly larger role than it already does.
I know you missed the point because you thought I was saying the SS isn't good when all I've been saying is in the 7th ed book the army is unplayable without it
I'm not here to debate if it was a good idea to implement D weapons in the base version or not. I'm simply using the rules and the ITC guidelines to shape a list that's good in this meta. Also your right I did miss the point.
The thing hurting us the most in tournaments and kicking us down the rankings as a faction was deathstars and GMC/Big Things. We used to be viable before that started happening. We still had trouble with them, but they weren't so insanely powerful that our existing options weren't enough. However as time went by they were no longer enough due to power creep. So i think what this all comes down to is not the Stormsurge being necessary, but a symptom of something deeper with your argument. The SS was made and sold because it filled the only gap left in our army. We still have soft counters in the form of fusion blasters and the stealth suit formations as well.
The SS is not what ails you, it's the way they make the game and market it and have this constant power creep. That's the real thing that needs to bbe solved. Or else there will simply be another SS tomorrow for Tau instead of them sensibly trying to take a look at rules and make changes to the codex on a more broadish level. It affects every army. Not just Tau. So don't blame the SS. Blame GW and their power creep.
Also bringing D weapons is not luck. it's guaranteed damage even on a low hit that makes it through that's a lot od damage with the bonus of basically killing anything. Which is why the SS must be supported so it doesn't rely on luck. But that would be where the Commander takes cover wouldn't and has to logically think how he will finish off things the D shots have wounded. I and no one else can play for a person in that regard.
Edit
The Riptide I plan to drop won't have a Stim Injector. Doesn't need it since it's a flanker and not meant to command the board. My SS will be doing that.
The SS fills that gap terribly. You're relying on 4 shots for that... Against things with invuls typically or 8 wounds so you absolutely need a "remove from play" roll
jakejackjake wrote: If you deepstrike that whole formation you are a TERRIBLE tau player. I'm not even going to elaborate on that. It shouldn't need it.
Do you have to deepstrike the entire formation if you choose to deepstrike? And is that the only way they get relelntless or do they automatically get it? Deepstriking riptides or broadsides is just bad. I find being better at deployment and the movement phase/jetpack thrust planning is far superior for a Rip
Yup. If you choose to do so, you have to deploy the whole formation at the start of your second turn as per deep strike. So, as far as you're concerned, all that formation is good for is the Relentless is grants all of the units in it?
I wonder what you think of three ghostkeels with farsight deep striking, then assaulting
if you play farsight you're bad
Can you please stop posting. You are saying the same things over and over again and no one agrees with you. And you always end your posts with how great you are at playing the game and how everyone else who doesn't do you do is terrible. You sound like a cocky little child
Plus if you're going second and the enemy kills one of your units (first blood wooo) your entire army in reserve comes into play on your FIRST TURN.
Except that your opponent will know exactly that that would happen so he just happily lets that one crappy unit live, takes all the objectives and killing the rest of your army while you sit there hoping your stuff comes out of reserves .
Not quite - if they kill anything from the infiltration cadre, the entire army comes in from reserves on our next turn (so turn 1 if going 2nd). The stealthsuits, piranha, and pathfinders will be the only things on the table to start so anything they try to get first blood from will trigger the SUITSTORM. If they decline to remove any of our units from the table, then on our turn 2 the retaliation cadre deep strikes in automatically - using homing beacons from the stealthsuits and recon drones so they don't scatter and mishap. I think it could really work as a null-deploy (kind of) army with a great beta-strike potential. Not to mention that any pathfinders that get 3 or more markerlight hits will cause a free s8 ap3 hit as well.
Okay this rule is actually cool. Not sure if you can build a winning list with it but it at least has awesomesauce in it
Automatically Appended Next Post: @notredameguy sorry man I just keep trying to talk about how this effects strictly competitive list options and everyone keeps mentionthing things that have never been competitve or couldn't be. This is shown by tournament results that can be googled. Meaning simple google searches for late 2015 tournaments will show that wether or not people agree with me I am right.
Doesn't matter if people agree. If they say fire warriors, missile drones, stealth suits, or farsight are good units they have no idea what they're talking about. I'm trying to talk competitive imacts this book has and everyone keeps bringing up fluffy non competitive things while quoting me
He asked what I thought of three ghostkeels and farsight. I think it's bad because farsight is a huge tax for how terrible he is. I'm not going to lie in my answer
To be honest that's exactly what I am saying there were only 2-3 competitive lists for the last three months so anyone who did it differently was bad actually. Youre right that's exactly what I am saying and anyone playing GT's with Tau would tell you the same from a strictly competitive point of view
It's okay to be a modeler who likes to play friendly games. I play friendly games but I'm not really a modeler. I'm a power gamer. I played strategy based games professionally for three years.Something that has the same concepts of probability and outplaying the opponent.
Gamgee wrote:I agree the coldstar is a disaster. No explanation needed.
I've been analyzing this pretty heavily. I'm not on board to say the Coldstar rules suck, but I do see other poster's concerns about it. It is surely by no means a "Must have unit" in any army. and if you're taking it, you're most likely doing so out of coolness factor over pragmatic effiency.
Essentially, If one subtracts the inherent weapons cost for the Missile pod and TL burst cannon (35 total), you re essentially paying 25pts for the following:
Pros -a free hardpoint location(though this is used up by the fairly innefective Twinlinking of the burstcannon.
-an upgrade from assault 4 to Assault 6 for the burst cannon burst cannon(not bad)
-the ability to swoop like a MC.
-can't be assaultted (great)
-moves speedily around the tabletop(great)
-immune to blast tamplate weapons(great)
- can only be hit with Snap fire or skyfire.(great)
-can choose to fire using the Skyfire rules when swooping(great)
-a 4+ jink save (render moot if one takes a shiled generator, and you're insane not to)(useless unless you don't take a shield generator, but jink won't protect you from massed volley arms, which is what likely will Force the letahl Grounded Test)
- a switch from jetpack mobility to jumppack mobility.(interesting)
-gain the move through cover USR (trival)
-coolness factor of being a flying battle suit.(great)
Not too bad so far.
But You also suffer the following:
Cons -affected by rules affecting Monstrous creatures (interesting)
-While swooping, a failed armor save has a 33% chance to send the Coldstar crashing to the ground. This is a guaranteed fatal result unless you take a shield generator and make the 4+inv save. (str9 hit against toughness 4). This offers massed lasgun fire a decent opportunity to kill a 145pt+ HQ unit (scary bad)
-can't make jetpack moves in the assaault phase. (meh, you're flying!)
-any Drones owned by the Coldstar dissapear while swooping, leaving him alone to recieve damage.(not good)
-seems to lose access to signature systems, and is limited to 2 additional support systems and drones for upgrade.(not good)
-only a few of the support systems have any value while swooping. and if you're not swooping most of the time, why bother taking a coldstar?
-cannot go to ground(trivial)
There are counters to cover it's weaknesses, but these then stifle the coldstar's utilty. Sure you can sticking a Coldstar with a bodygaurd, but then he's not flying, which is what you pay for in the first place.
Best Use I suspect that his best use is to join him to a Crisis unit and wait for the right time to launch into the sky when the value is greater, and when enemy fire power in his direction is limited.
Wishful thinking There were a couple rule options I was hoping the rumors missed initially that might have made him more potent. Rumor-hidden access to Toughness 5(Iridium armor) was the most obvious, but there are other rule options they could have included (such as allowing drones to act as ablative armor from grounded tests or creating Coldstar Shas'vre body guard). I was really hoping for Coldstar shas've body guard.(though this seems like less of an option with the squad size increase to 9). I though a Coldstar Commander and 2 wingman Coldstar shas'vre body gaurd would be pretty cool to see and sell more coldstar models. I am okay with the locked-in weapon systems, as I'm sure people would hone in on the 1 or 2 awesome combos (duo flamers,duo meltas) and we'd have non-Tau players crying cheese.
Conclusion I'll still use the Coldstar more than I won't, as coolness factor goes a long way with me. But I do see the Coldstar's weakness to dying via grounded test a significant risk that comes while paying for an upgrade that imposes more limits(or uses are stifled by) more than it provides actual function. So I understand the complaints.
To McNinja the coldstar is not capable of killing anything that matter or scoring without giving up a free point. Also anything with skyfire its a free point too.
It's the worst HQ in the new book if nothing else changed. Regular commander and ethereal are still the only options unless there is osmething new.
In my friendly games everything is good. I played a 5k game against space wolves with 2200 pts in fire warriors and 1000 pts in fireblades. It was awesome. That's a friendly game. The coldstar is even cool in a friendly. The breachers are good. Heck kroot are good in a friendly game
Plus if you're going second and the enemy kills one of your units (first blood wooo) your entire army in reserve comes into play on your FIRST TURN.
Except that your opponent will know exactly that that would happen so he just happily lets that one crappy unit live, takes all the objectives and killing the rest of your army while you sit there hoping your stuff comes out of reserves .
Not quite - if they kill anything from the infiltration cadre, the entire army comes in from reserves on our next turn (so turn 1 if going 2nd). The stealthsuits, piranha, and pathfinders will be the only things on the table to start so anything they try to get first blood from will trigger the SUITSTORM. If they decline to remove any of our units from the table, then on our turn 2 the retaliation cadre deep strikes in automatically - using homing beacons from the stealthsuits and recon drones so they don't scatter and mishap. I think it could really work as a null-deploy (kind of) army with a great beta-strike potential. Not to mention that any pathfinders that get 3 or more markerlight hits will cause a free s8 ap3 hit as well.
Didn't think about that. Quasi-null deployment seems awesome, specially on tabels without much impassable terrain.
The problem is if the enemy is smart enough to only kill a few models (and not an entire unit) - leaving you in a bad situation. He'll try to grab objectives instead. Still, cooler than grabbing a comms relay
Strongly agree with your assesment, The way I see it what people are saying amounts to "a crisis suit that has a burst cannon and a missle pod is utter garbage" yea ok say that all you want guys.
The problem is that a coldstar commander doesnt really *do anything*. Why do you need a swooping burst cannon? Are S5 shots something that Tau is lacking as opposed to unit wide buffs and different weaponry?
I see no reason that a Tau commander is required to move 24" out on his own as you aren't even gaining that much more additional movement.
i ignored jakejack awhile ago. Hes just flaming the forum needlessly so i suggest you guys do the same and add his name to your ignores.
On the topic of FMC i agree with derling. Hes by no means an autotake and is only amazing in very niche situations, average in the rest. Primarily due to his lack of Iridium armor and weapon variability. But i can ignore that because hes still usable in a lot of ways and hes cool as feth. I do a lot of crap that a tourny player would scorn me for. I dont care. The people i play arent tourny players, we play because its fun. I know my friends are going to try and make this guy do a horrendous faceplant in the ground, and if it happens im bound to laugh angrily just because of the mental image softening the blow that i just lost that thing to a single shot.
If he had coldstar bodyguards i could see him being a normal inclusion, especially since he isnt a separate datacard he can be included in any of our formations that utilize a commander. If i could make one of my required bodyguard and commander units be a coldstar squad, i'd do it in a heartbeat.
Im the guy that has very little complaint about Hammerheads, Devilfish, Piranhas, or Sniper Drones. So its kinda hard for me to dislike the coldstar as much as i do Vespid or Stealth Suits (stealth suits cost too much outside the formation to be worth it)
Vineheart01 wrote: i ignored jakejack awhile ago. Hes just flaming the forum needlessly so i suggest you guys do the same and add his name to your ignores.
Doesn't talking negatively about someone you're ignoring (including telling them that you are) both defeat the purpose of ignoring them as well as flame bait simultaneously?
Vineheart01 wrote: i ignored jakejack awhile ago. Hes just flaming the forum needlessly so i suggest you guys do the same and add his name to your ignores.
Doesn't talking negatively about someone you're ignoring (including telling them that you are) both defeat the purpose of ignoring them as well as flame bait simultaneously?
The Coldstar should never be your Warlord choice outside of small point games where skyfire will be minimal. As a secondary HQ choice, I love him. Sure S5 and S7 aren't exactly things Tau are in short supply of, but as a harassment unit the Coldstar is pretty good. You're not gonna be sending him after big MCs or vehicles with better than AV11, that's not his job. His job is to fly forward and deliver that S5 and S7 fire to the enemy troops camping on objectives in his deployment zone out of line of sight. Not many troops units in this game can really handle 6 S5 twin-linked shots plus 2 S7 shots at BS5 coming from an FMC.
I don't see this guy as a killer. He has 2 jobs. 1. Make enemy troops units take enough casualties that they fail a morale test and fall back off an objective for our troops in Hunter Contingents to take (since they don't have Ob Sec they can't contest normal troops). With his manuveurability, he can put his firepower into units we otherwise wouldn't be able to hit without several turns of movement. 2. Anti-flyer. Not many flyers in this game have better than AV11 (I think only the Stormraven and Space Wolf flyers have it all around? Even Valkyries and Vendettas have AV10 rear). Since our flyers aren't exactly the best and VTs can get very expensive very quickly, use this guy to clear the skies.
Is he the super OP auto-take HQ for Tau? Of course not. Is he totally useless and should never have been thought up? Absolutely not. He has a specific job. Outside of that job he will probably underperform, but within that job, while other units can do it too, he's the only one who can do it with that kind of mobility.
GI_Redshirt wrote: The Coldstar should never be your Warlord choice outside of small point games where skyfire will be minimal. As a secondary HQ choice, I love him. Sure S5 and S7 aren't exactly things Tau are in short supply of, but as a harassment unit the Coldstar is pretty good. You're not gonna be sending him after big MCs or vehicles with better than AV11, that's not his job. His job is to fly forward and deliver that S5 and S7 fire to the enemy troops camping on objectives in his deployment zone out of line of sight. Not many troops units in this game can really handle 6 S5 twin-linked shots plus 2 S7 shots at BS5 coming from an FMC.
I don't see this guy as a killer. He has 2 jobs. 1. Make enemy troops units take enough casualties that they fail a morale test and fall back off an objective for our troops in Hunter Contingents to take (since they don't have Ob Sec they can't contest normal troops). With his manuveurability, he can put his firepower into units we otherwise wouldn't be able to hit without several turns of movement. 2. Anti-flyer. Not many flyers in this game have better than AV11 (I think only the Stormraven and Space Wolf flyers have it all around? Even Valkyries and Vendettas have AV10 rear). Since our flyers aren't exactly the best and VTs can get very expensive very quickly, use this guy to clear the skies.
Is he the super OP auto-take HQ for Tau? Of course not. Is he totally useless and should never have been thought up? Absolutely not. He has a specific job. Outside of that job he will probably underperform, but within that job, while other units can do it too, he's the only one who can do it with that kind of mobility.
Plus the Coldstar model is fantastic.
I agree. I think Coldstar is also the only model I'd put an Advanced Targeting System on to snipe out those heavy weapons.
GI_Redshirt wrote: The Coldstar should never be your Warlord choice outside of small point games where skyfire will be minimal. As a secondary HQ choice, I love him. Sure S5 and S7 aren't exactly things Tau are in short supply of, but as a harassment unit the Coldstar is pretty good. You're not gonna be sending him after big MCs or vehicles with better than AV11, that's not his job. His job is to fly forward and deliver that S5 and S7 fire to the enemy troops camping on objectives in his deployment zone out of line of sight. Not many troops units in this game can really handle 6 S5 twin-linked shots plus 2 S7 shots at BS5 coming from an FMC.
I don't see this guy as a killer. He has 2 jobs. 1. Make enemy troops units take enough casualties that they fail a morale test and fall back off an objective for our troops in Hunter Contingents to take (since they don't have Ob Sec they can't contest normal troops). With his manuveurability, he can put his firepower into units we otherwise wouldn't be able to hit without several turns of movement. 2. Anti-flyer. Not many flyers in this game have better than AV11 (I think only the Stormraven and Space Wolf flyers have it all around? Even Valkyries and Vendettas have AV10 rear). Since our flyers aren't exactly the best and VTs can get very expensive very quickly, use this guy to clear the skies.
Is he the super OP auto-take HQ for Tau? Of course not. Is he totally useless and should never have been thought up? Absolutely not. He has a specific job. Outside of that job he will probably underperform, but within that job, while other units can do it too, he's the only one who can do it with that kind of mobility.
Plus the Coldstar model is fantastic.
I'm still wondering about the supposed ability to give him a drone controller then attach a unit of gun drones/marker drones onto him. Drones do not seem to stop his movement and now you have some ablative wounds and a whole crap ton of S5 dakka anywhere on the table you need it.
I'm still wondering about the supposed ability to give him a drone controller then attach a unit of gun drones/marker drones onto him. Drones do not seem to stop his movement and now you have some ablative wounds and a whole crap ton of S5 dakka anywhere on the table you need it.
Drones are removed from table when Coldstar is flying - they won't be there to soak damage for him. Unless you plan to use him as a jump infantry, then that's ok (but then the Drones WILL hamper his movement)
There is a bit of a perk to making the coldstar commander take a drone controller. If he attaches to a drone squad, his rule about them simply "disappearing" when he takes to the air doesnt mention a model limit or that it has to be the ones he bought. You can attach him to a large squad of drones, take to the air and fly to an objective, drop down and unload some insane amount of BS5 dakka in some troops face. Then you can either take off and leave the drones in that side of the board or do it again for another location.
Kinda like precision deepstriking with 0 risk. Aside from the obvious bad dice luck and getting tabled when hes on the ground lol
Vineheart01 wrote: There is a bit of a perk to making the coldstar commander take a drone controller. If he attaches to a drone squad, his rule about them simply "disappearing" when he takes to the air doesnt mention a model limit or that it has to be the ones he bought.
You can attach him to a large squad of drones, take to the air and fly to an objective, drop down and unload some insane amount of BS5 dakka in some troops face. Then you can either take off and leave the drones in that side of the board or do it again for another location.
Kinda like precision deepstriking with 0 risk. Aside from the obvious bad dice luck and getting tabled when hes on the ground lol
Actually the rule says the following:
If the Commander has any Drones, they form a unit with him while he is Gliding. When he is Swooping, the Drones are removed from the battlefield.
As worded, you would not be able to remove a unit of drones that the Coldstar is attached to by switching to Swooping mode. The context of the rule clearly only applies to the Commander's drones (i.e., those purchased as an upgrade for the Commander).
I would much rather just have a Commander in iridum with stims, a shield, and two plasma rifles/fusion blasters than a coldstar. For me, who has terrible luck with dice, my commander would get grounded by a stray bolter shot and die turn 1. Not worth the risk.
Vineheart01 wrote: There is a bit of a perk to making the coldstar commander take a drone controller. If he attaches to a drone squad, his rule about them simply "disappearing" when he takes to the air doesnt mention a model limit or that it has to be the ones he bought.
You can attach him to a large squad of drones, take to the air and fly to an objective, drop down and unload some insane amount of BS5 dakka in some troops face. Then you can either take off and leave the drones in that side of the board or do it again for another location.
Kinda like precision deepstriking with 0 risk. Aside from the obvious bad dice luck and getting tabled when hes on the ground lol
Actually the rule says the following:
If the Commander has any Drones, they form a unit with him while he is Gliding. When he is Swooping, the Drones are removed from the battlefield.
As worded, you would not be able to remove a unit of drones that the Coldstar is attached to by switching to Swooping mode. The context of the rule clearly only applies to the Commander's drones (i.e., those purchased as an upgrade for the Commander).
Well... there's also the fact that if you're forming a unit with the drones you've purchased, you can't join another unit. Since you're already in a unit.
Well... there's also the fact that if you're forming a unit with the drones you've purchased, you can't join another unit. Since you're already in a unit.
I thought drones were exempt from this, at work so can't confirm in my rulebook.
Well... there's also the fact that if you're forming a unit with the drones you've purchased, you can't join another unit. Since you're already in a unit.
I thought drones were exempt from this, at work so can't confirm in my rulebook.
Right, ignore that, I need caffeine.
Jeez I stop playing for 3 months and I can't remember anything.
Fishboy wrote: The Codex specifically states Drones do not prevent a character from joining another unit. However if the Character dies the drones stay in that unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit...Ninja posters
Can a IC join a group of Drones do they form one unit to were you can then join it to another unit?
Fishboy wrote: The Codex specifically states Drones do not prevent a character from joining another unit. However if the Character dies the drones stay in that unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit...Ninja posters
Can a IC join a group of Drones do they form one unit to were you can then join it to another unit?
Only drones purchased as wargear allow the characters to drag them along into other units. Same as fenrisian wolves in the space wolves codex.
Drone units bought alone (ie from their dataslate in the fast attack slot or a formation) are their own unit.
Fishboy wrote: The Codex specifically states Drones do not prevent a character from joining another unit. However if the Character dies the drones stay in that unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit...Ninja posters
Can a IC join a group of Drones do they form one unit to were you can then join it to another unit?
Only drones purchased as wargear allow the characters to drag them along into other units. Same as fenrisian wolves in the space wolves codex.
Drone units bought alone (ie from their dataslate in the fast attack slot or a formation) are their own unit.
Thanks, I was curious if I could do anything extra with the drones that come with O'Ralai. I Just had him leave that unit do he doesn't get the toughness loss and hide him in terrain.
Fishboy wrote: The Codex specifically states Drones do not prevent a character from joining another unit. However if the Character dies the drones stay in that unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit...Ninja posters
Can a IC join a group of Drones do they form one unit to were you can then join it to another unit?
Only drones purchased as wargear allow the characters to drag them along into other units. Same as fenrisian wolves in the space wolves codex.
Drone units bought alone (ie from their dataslate in the fast attack slot or a formation) are their own unit.
Thanks, I was curious if I could do anything extra with the drones that come with O'Ralai. I Just had him leave that unit do he doesn't get the toughness loss and hide him in terrain.
Poor R'Alai has as special rule that prevents him from joining any units whatsoever. Until one of his piddly drones dies his unit is majority T4.
Fishboy wrote: The Codex specifically states Drones do not prevent a character from joining another unit. However if the Character dies the drones stay in that unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit...Ninja posters
Can a IC join a group of Drones do they form one unit to were you can then join it to another unit?
Only drones purchased as wargear allow the characters to drag them along into other units. Same as fenrisian wolves in the space wolves codex.
Drone units bought alone (ie from their dataslate in the fast attack slot or a formation) are their own unit.
Thanks, I was curious if I could do anything extra with the drones that come with O'Ralai. I Just had him leave that unit do he doesn't get the toughness loss and hide him in terrain.
Poor R'Alai has as special rule that prevents him from joining any units whatsoever. Until one of his piddly drones dies his unit is majority T4.
Yeah I just have him leave the drones behind. Wish I could have someone else Scoop them up.
Fishboy wrote: The Codex specifically states Drones do not prevent a character from joining another unit. However if the Character dies the drones stay in that unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit...Ninja posters
Can a IC join a group of Drones do they form one unit to were you can then join it to another unit?
Only drones purchased as wargear allow the characters to drag them along into other units. Same as fenrisian wolves in the space wolves codex.
Drone units bought alone (ie from their dataslate in the fast attack slot or a formation) are their own unit.
Thanks, I was curious if I could do anything extra with the drones that come with O'Ralai. I Just had him leave that unit do he doesn't get the toughness loss and hide him in terrain.
Poor R'Alai has as special rule that prevents him from joining any units whatsoever. Until one of his piddly drones dies his unit is majority T4.
Yeah I just have him leave the drones behind. Wish I could have someone else Scoop them up.
Theres no rule that says you can do that either. he's stuck with them until they die.
I just want to be clear if buffmander is in a unit of three crisis suits that consolidate fire at one unit with two other units of three crisis suits he can transfer ALL of his buffs that transfer to his unit to them AND they can still use target lock to shoot somewhere else and just have like a drone shoot at the same target?
If so I take back everything I said about this book and it could be stronger than eldar. If I can potentially have a unit of 3 riptides with target lock all become twin-linked, ignore cover, BS5, and have tank/monster hunter from my buffmander and then 2 SS and a Ghostkeel getting similar buffs from a batman crisis suit then I was completely wrong
Strongly agree with your assesment, The way I see it what people are saying amounts to "a crisis suit that has a burst cannon and a missle pod is utter garbage" yea ok say that all you want guys.
no crisis suits in general were not amazing in 6th. They were okay. You didn't want more than 3-5 though. Riptides, broadsides and marker lights WERE the army. Missile pods were a great weapon the burst cannons were useless and people only used fusion blaster and it tended to be a weak point in their army
MSU spamming crisis suits would not work against a good opponent because every single other army was better at that.
jakejackjake wrote: I just want to be clear if buffmander is in a unit of three crisis suits that consolidate fire at one unit with two other units of three crisis suits he can transfer ALL of his buffs that transfer to his unit to them AND they can still use target lock to shoot somewhere else and just have like a drone shoot at the same target?
If so I take back everything I said about this book and it could be stronger than eldar.
RAW - probably. RAI - in my opinion the combining fire units must all shoot at the same target without using target locks. No, this isn't RAW. I know that. However doing it as you've ascribed above with your entire army gets ridiculous pretty quick - way over eldar level IMO.
That being said, nothing is stopping you from taking a 9 man crisis team (they max at 9 suits now) with 3 commanders, 2 being shooty and 1 being a buffmander, and using his wargear to make them all twin link/ignore cover/tank hunter. Then you use that 12 man team (with gun drones why not) and obliterate every AV13 and lower tank in the enemy army on turn 1. No combined fire required so nobody can complain that your detachment is being used incorrectly.
jakejackjake wrote: I just want to be clear if buffmander is in a unit of three crisis suits that consolidate fire at one unit with two other units of three crisis suits he can transfer ALL of his buffs that transfer to his unit to them AND they can still use target lock to shoot somewhere else and just have like a drone shoot at the same target?
If so I take back everything I said about this book and it could be stronger than eldar.
RAW - probably. RAI - in my opinion the combining fire units must all shoot at the same target without using target locks. No, this isn't RAW. I know that. However doing it as you've ascribed above with your entire army gets ridiculous pretty quick - way over eldar level IMO.
That being said, nothing is stopping you from taking a 9 man crisis team (they max at 9 suits now) with 3 commanders, 2 being shooty and 1 being a buffmander, and using his wargear to make them all twin link/ignore cover/tank hunter. Then you use that 12 man team (with gun drones why not) and obliterate every AV13 and lower tank in the enemy army on turn 1. No combined fire required so nobody can complain that your detachment is being used incorrectly.
That's far less effective and worse in every way from a tactical point of view though. Still could be good. The idea of having 700 pts in one unit as Tau where they aren't three riptides makes me want to puke though. Assault it with one unit of necron warriors and you lost the game
But I agree what I was mentioning would be ridiculous it just seems to read that way. If the RAI are as you say though then the best lists will barely utilize that role or you'll have to bring a 200pt commander and then another unit simply to consolidate fire with a SS and that's an addition 300 pts ish that does nothing but buff one model and try not to die basically
yes it's worse because the RAW way to do it is so incredibly OP i can't imagine keeping friends after attempting it in a game. 50 points of wargear (M3S, C&C Node, PENchip) making 1800 points worth of army (roughly) twin linked ignore cover monster/tank hunter is really absurd. Now making them all of those things, but targeting a single enemy unit for guaranteed destruction - that's strong. Generally speaking shooting with your army in Triads to get the BS buff will usually be enough to take out some tougher units like terminators or tanks - we don't really need to cheese out or loophole a rule like this. I'm hoping GW will issue a clarification.
EVERYONE whether you agree or disagree with the shared rules for combined fire, please email GAMEFAQS@GWPLC.COM with the question. If we want any sort of response it will take a FLOOD of emails to make them consider it since we haven't had any FAQs in 11 months.
Edit - between the shooting phase and 12" supporting fire, i doubt T4 4+ save necron warriors would survive long enough to make it into assault.
Fishboy wrote: The Codex specifically states Drones do not prevent a character from joining another unit. However if the Character dies the drones stay in that unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit...Ninja posters
Can a IC join a group of Drones do they form one unit to were you can then join it to another unit?
Only drones purchased as wargear allow the characters to drag them along into other units. Same as fenrisian wolves in the space wolves codex.
Drone units bought alone (ie from their dataslate in the fast attack slot or a formation) are their own unit.
Thanks, I was curious if I could do anything extra with the drones that come with O'Ralai. I Just had him leave that unit do he doesn't get the toughness loss and hide him in terrain.
Poor R'Alai has as special rule that prevents him from joining any units whatsoever. Until one of his piddly drones dies his unit is majority T4.
Yeah I just have him leave the drones behind. Wish I could have someone else Scoop them up.
Theres no rule that says you can do that either. he's stuck with them until they die.
I will have to pose that question to FW. Will update if I get an answer.
tetrisphreak wrote: yes it's worse because the RAW way to do it is so incredibly OP i can't imagine keeping friends after attempting it in a game. 50 points of wargear (M3S, C&C Node, PENchip) making 1800 points worth of army (roughly) twin linked ignore cover monster/tank hunter is really absurd. Now making them all of those things, but targeting a single enemy unit for guaranteed destruction - that's strong. Generally speaking shooting with your army in Triads to get the BS buff will usually be enough to take out some tougher units like terminators or tanks - we don't really need to cheese out or loophole a rule like this. I'm hoping GW will issue a clarification.
EVERYONE whether you agree or disagree with the shared rules for combined fire, please email GAMEFAQS@GWPLC.COM with the question. If we want any sort of response it will take a FLOOD of emails to make them consider it since we haven't had any FAQs in 11 months.
It would be over 350 pts to buff the whole army. The rule becomes useless otherwise because you never really want to commit that much to one target otherwise and if you try to go msu with it you run out of slots and then the amount you can buff and have shoot at separate targets is limited to less than if you just do the 9 man squads with their own buff guy. I don't want the rule to be good just because I can waste two units to buff a SS. That falls right in line with my major complaint of the book not being a new Codex Tau , but a new Codex: Stormsurge and friends
Fishboy wrote: The Codex specifically states Drones do not prevent a character from joining another unit. However if the Character dies the drones stay in that unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit...Ninja posters
Can a IC join a group of Drones do they form one unit to were you can then join it to another unit?
Only drones purchased as wargear allow the characters to drag them along into other units. Same as fenrisian wolves in the space wolves codex.
Drone units bought alone (ie from their dataslate in the fast attack slot or a formation) are their own unit.
Thanks, I was curious if I could do anything extra with the drones that come with O'Ralai. I Just had him leave that unit do he doesn't get the toughness loss and hide him in terrain.
Poor R'Alai has as special rule that prevents him from joining any units whatsoever. Until one of his piddly drones dies his unit is majority T4.
Yeah I just have him leave the drones behind. Wish I could have someone else Scoop them up.
Theres no rule that says you can do that either. he's stuck with them until they die.
I will have to pose that question to FW. Will update if I get an answer.
That works. I"m going by the rule that states drones as wargear always accompany the suit that bought them. As it reads from the 7e book : "Drones taken as upgrades for a unit act as additional squad members in all regards. they are unable to leave their unit and must maintain unit coherency with their unit at all times. ... Independent characters who have taken drones as upgrades are still permitted to join units" (except r'alai - my addition) ... it goes on but basically the drones always follow the character that bought them.
tetrisphreak wrote: yes it's worse because the RAW way to do it is so incredibly OP i can't imagine keeping friends after attempting it in a game. 50 points of wargear (M3S, C&C Node, PENchip) making 1800 points worth of army (roughly) twin linked ignore cover monster/tank hunter is really absurd. Now making them all of those things, but targeting a single enemy unit for guaranteed destruction - that's strong. Generally speaking shooting with your army in Triads to get the BS buff will usually be enough to take out some tougher units like terminators or tanks - we don't really need to cheese out or loophole a rule like this. I'm hoping GW will issue a clarification.
EVERYONE whether you agree or disagree with the shared rules for combined fire, please email GAMEFAQS@GWPLC.COM with the question. If we want any sort of response it will take a FLOOD of emails to make them consider it since we haven't had any FAQs in 11 months.
It would be over 350 pts to buff the whole army. The rule becomes useless otherwise because you never really want to commit that much to one target otherwise and if you try to go msu with it you run out of slots and then the amount you can buff and have shoot at separate targets is limited to less than if you just do the 9 man squads with their own buff guy. I don't want the rule to be good just because I can waste two units to buff a SS. That falls right in line with my major complaint of the book not being a new Codex Tau , but a new Codex: Stormsurge and friends
Email GW. encourage your friends and local area 40k players to as well. Until then abide by whatever rules you and your friends decide are fair, or go by the TO's decision at a tournament. that's all i can say on it bruh.
tetrisphreak wrote: yes it's worse because the RAW way to do it is so incredibly OP i can't imagine keeping friends after attempting it in a game. 50 points of wargear (M3S, C&C Node, PENchip) making 1800 points worth of army (roughly) twin linked ignore cover monster/tank hunter is really absurd. Now making them all of those things, but targeting a single enemy unit for guaranteed destruction - that's strong. Generally speaking shooting with your army in Triads to get the BS buff will usually be enough to take out some tougher units like terminators or tanks - we don't really need to cheese out or loophole a rule like this. I'm hoping GW will issue a clarification.
EVERYONE whether you agree or disagree with the shared rules for combined fire, please email GAMEFAQS@GWPLC.COM with the question. If we want any sort of response it will take a FLOOD of emails to make them consider it since we haven't had any FAQs in 11 months.
Edit - between the shooting phase and 12" supporting fire, i doubt T4 4+ save necron warriors would survive long enough to make it into assault.
Yeah I know you'd obviously have the guy with staff of light a 2+/4+ in front and a Resurrection orb for it to actually work, I was exaggerating
tetrisphreak wrote: yes it's worse because the RAW way to do it is so incredibly OP i can't imagine keeping friends after attempting it in a game. 50 points of wargear (M3S, C&C Node, PENchip) making 1800 points worth of army (roughly) twin linked ignore cover monster/tank hunter is really absurd. Now making them all of those things, but targeting a single enemy unit for guaranteed destruction - that's strong. Generally speaking shooting with your army in Triads to get the BS buff will usually be enough to take out some tougher units like terminators or tanks - we don't really need to cheese out or loophole a rule like this. I'm hoping GW will issue a clarification.
EVERYONE whether you agree or disagree with the shared rules for combined fire, please email GAMEFAQS@GWPLC.COM with the question. If we want any sort of response it will take a FLOOD of emails to make them consider it since we haven't had any FAQs in 11 months.
Edit - between the shooting phase and 12" supporting fire, i doubt T4 4+ save necron warriors would survive long enough to make it into assault.
Yeah I know you'd obviously have the guy with staff of light a 2+/4+ in front and a Resurrection orb for it to actually work, I was exaggerating
Necron Wraiths, on the other hand...they get into assault very quickly. pesky buggers, them.
I know nobody is going to think it's in their best interests, but we should probably, after the official release date of the codex, get them to clarify you don't share rules between Tau Decurion units sharing markerlights.
changemod wrote: I know nobody is going to think it's in their best interests, but we should probably, after the official release date of the codex, get them to clarify you don't share rules between Tau Decurion units sharing markerlights.
I'd suggest to ask them the question in a more open-ended way. I'll abide by whatever the decision stands to be, if it's ever addressed (as most everyone else will too).
Wait are we positive target lock still exists or isn't forbidden expressly from having an effect? I havent seen that page. That would solve this quickly
I never really thought about it until now but with the increased number of these formations that specifically say take X number of Y unit. How it will effect use of FW units. I wonder if we will see less of them now due to the strict adherence to formations rather than CAD. I know CAD still exists but with the boons you get from just playing formations it kind of make a lot of FW units seem hung out to dry.
jakejackjake wrote: Wait are we positive target lock still exists or isn't forbidden expressly from having an effect? I havent seen that page. That would solve this quickly
I've got the book. Target locks are still in, cost the same points, and are worded exactly as before.
jakejackjake wrote: Wait are we positive target lock still exists or isn't forbidden expressly from having an effect? I havent seen that page. That would solve this quickly
I've got the book. Target locks are still in, cost the same points, and are worded exactly as before.
Game broken
Maybe it's intentional to force people to stop restricting things like multiple WK's but all that will happen is it will get restricted too which is fine because its insane
Vineheart01 wrote: There is a bit of a perk to making the coldstar commander take a drone controller. If he attaches to a drone squad, his rule about them simply "disappearing" when he takes to the air doesnt mention a model limit or that it has to be the ones he bought.
You can attach him to a large squad of drones, take to the air and fly to an objective, drop down and unload some insane amount of BS5 dakka in some troops face. Then you can either take off and leave the drones in that side of the board or do it again for another location.
Kinda like precision deepstriking with 0 risk. Aside from the obvious bad dice luck and getting tabled when hes on the ground lol
Can he even join a unit? He's kinda in that grey area that O'vesa is in with regards to MCs/ICs and joining units.
Soz if this has been mentioned (might have missed a few pages). I'm not sure if we have seen the dataslate thingie for Firewarrior Strike Teams but I can confirm that according to the rules that come in the box they are 5-12 models while Breacher teams are 5-10.
Mid-life Crisis Suit wrote: Soz if this has been mentioned (might have missed a few pages). I'm not sure if we have seen the dataslate thingie for Firewarrior Strike Teams but I can confirm that according to the rules that come in the box they are 5-12 models while Breacher teams are 5-10.
Ta.
It has, just keep in mind you can only build 10 strikers with the new box .
I found a company called Underground Lasers which will make 40mm to 50mm and 40mm to 60mm conversion rings out of either MDF (for $0.50 and $0.75 respectively) or acrylic (for $1 or $1.50 respectively). Free shipping in US if order is $20 or more. It is a custom order so you have to contact them via email as they are not listed parts on their webpages.
Not bad as I spent a lot of time on some of my crisis suit bases and don't want to have to tear the models off.
Vineheart01 wrote: There is a bit of a perk to making the coldstar commander take a drone controller. If he attaches to a drone squad, his rule about them simply "disappearing" when he takes to the air doesnt mention a model limit or that it has to be the ones he bought.
You can attach him to a large squad of drones, take to the air and fly to an objective, drop down and unload some insane amount of BS5 dakka in some troops face. Then you can either take off and leave the drones in that side of the board or do it again for another location.
Kinda like precision deepstriking with 0 risk. Aside from the obvious bad dice luck and getting tabled when hes on the ground lol
Can he even join a unit? He's kinda in that grey area that O'vesa is in with regards to MCs/ICs and joining units.
There is no grey area. There is no rule preventing an IC from joining a unit of non-MC models. The fact that the IC might be an MC has no impact. Order is important. O'Vesa has to actively join another unit. No other IC can then join a unit containing O'Vesa. In other words, make sure O'Vesa is the last to join. Coldstar Commanders would also need to be the last to join.
Is Longstrike still a thing in the new codex? If so, perhaps Hammerheads are not completely worthless. I just so happen to have all the models I need to run a minimum Hunter Cadre, so for future purchases I just need to get some stuff to make one or more of the Auxiliaries (I'm thinking Optimized Stealth Cadre since I love the new Ghostkeel model). Also, can Crisis suits take two Missile Pods any more? I noticed the new Crisis team box only comes with three (maybe that is just GW trying to make us buy more of them to get enough weapons ). Sorry if these questions have already been answered, I just didn't feel like fishing through pages and pages of posts to find them.
Vineheart01 wrote: There is a bit of a perk to making the coldstar commander take a drone controller. If he attaches to a drone squad, his rule about them simply "disappearing" when he takes to the air doesnt mention a model limit or that it has to be the ones he bought.
You can attach him to a large squad of drones, take to the air and fly to an objective, drop down and unload some insane amount of BS5 dakka in some troops face. Then you can either take off and leave the drones in that side of the board or do it again for another location.
Kinda like precision deepstriking with 0 risk. Aside from the obvious bad dice luck and getting tabled when hes on the ground lol
Can he even join a unit? He's kinda in that grey area that O'vesa is in with regards to MCs/ICs and joining units.
There is no grey area. There is no rule preventing an IC from joining a unit of non-MC models. The fact that the IC might be an MC has no impact. Order is important. O'Vesa has to actively join another unit. No other IC can then join a unit containing O'Vesa. In other words, make sure O'Vesa is the last to join. Coldstar Commanders would also need to be the last to join.
I'm pretty sure my local TO doesn't rule it that way, even if they did that sounds like the worst kind of rules lawyering.
If you DONT rule it that way, then any IC that happens to be an MC literally cannot use his IC rules...ever. Theres not a single rule ICs get that doesnt involve a unit.
ZergSmasher wrote: Is Longstrike still a thing in the new codex? If so, perhaps Hammerheads are not completely worthless. I just so happen to have all the models I need to run a minimum Hunter Cadre, so for future purchases I just need to get some stuff to make one or more of the Auxiliaries (I'm thinking Optimized Stealth Cadre since I love the new Ghostkeel model). Also, can Crisis suits take two Missile Pods any more? I noticed the new Crisis team box only comes with three (maybe that is just GW trying to make us buy more of them to get enough weapons ). Sorry if these questions have already been answered, I just didn't feel like fishing through pages and pages of posts to find them.
Yes Longstrike is still in the codex and he is MUCH better thanks to the Combined Fire rule. He gives his tank hunter ability to any other unit that shoots along with him, aka 3 hammerheads (1 with long strike) all firing at the same target get BS5 (BS6 for longstirke) and Tank Hunter
And yes, double weapons on crisis are still allowed
In regards to the Tau rule. It specifies that they count as one unit. So they gain the benefits of the buffmander's abilities.
"Whenever a unit from a Hunter Contingent selects a target in the shooting phase, any number of other units from the same Detachment who can still shoot can add their firepower to the attack. These units must shoot the same target, resolving their shots as if they were a single unit–this includes the use of Marker Light abilities. When 3 or more units combine their firepower, the firing models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill."
If it only counted markerlights and the +1BS as the bonuses it would say that. It doesn't. It says they have to shoot at the same target and if they do they count as a unit for the shooting attack. So thus they get the rules since they are making a shooting attack as a single unit.
I've seen people say but they aren't in coherency ect. Well that's a red herring argument. They are counted as a single unit for shooting, but nothing says they have to be in coherency. That's a dead end way to look at this. It has nothing to do with the rules themselves.
I've also seen people say the "as if" doesn't mean "as/is" argument. Well that's wrong grammatically because as if does in fact mean as, but as if makes it a temporary usage of "as" specified by the rule hence the "as if" they are a unit. So that argument is out simply on looking at the grammar behind it.
"Counted as a unit for shooting" is not the same as "They are a unit" so coherency means nothing because that literally only comes into play in the movement phase. You can get shot out of coherency and you do nothing about it until the movement phase.
This game is loaded with "counts as" without actually being ruled as it so it only works for a specific part of that ruling, in this case the "unit shooting" part of a unit while ignoring the rest.
Vineheart01 wrote: "Counted as a unit for shooting" is not the same as "They are a unit" so coherency means nothing because that literally only comes into play in the movement phase. You can get shot out of coherency and you do nothing about it until the movement phase.
This game is loaded with "counts as" without actually being ruled as it so it only works for a specific part of that ruling, in this case the "unit shooting" part of a unit while ignoring the rest.
Then they would specify that, but they left it open to more open interpretations for some reason. Meaning something else must get shared. Why not simply say "they all make shooting attacks and can use the same marker lights and get +1BS if three or more shoot" So what else could it be? Certainly not the coherency stuff. They are counting as a unit for shooting. Counting as a unit for shooting, which makes them benefit from unit rules that affect shooting. Buffmander's rules specify they affect the unit he is in. Nothing in the rule says they won't benefit also benefit from his buffs or shared special rules like monster hunter from a PEN chip.
The way the rule is written defeats that proposition because they left it more open when it could have easily been a simple clear cut effect. They list ML's as examples of effects that are shared as well. So what else could be shared if your interpretation is correct? Why word it like that at all? I suppose human error, but that seems unlikely given how well it meshes with existing codex synergies. It seems like the intent was to allow the sharing of effects like that.
Besides it's not like the whole army has those effects all the time. Only the units that join in and only on one target. So I have to decide between splitting my fire up or firing at a deathstar. Seems very balanced given the crazy meta we live in.
Only resolve the shot. not turn momentarily into one unit. the game brakes way too hand if you try it the other way around (on the mechanical level, let alone balance)
People arguing the semantics... YOU DO BECOME ONE UNIT FOR SHOOTING PURPOSES. Its as simple as that. Just because you don't want the rules to say that doesn't mean thats exactly what it says.
The rule for the Stealth formation states if one of the units from the formation is within 6" of the Ghostkeel they receive +1 BS. Does this mean the Ghostkeel gets +1BS for being within 6" of itself and if it has 3 in the unit receives an additional +1 BS for the Fire Support rule?
Fishboy wrote: The rule for the Stealth formation states if one of the units from the formation is within 6" of the Ghostkeel they receive +1 BS. Does this mean the Ghostkeel gets +1BS for being within 6" of itself and if it has 3 in the unit receives an additional +1 BS for the Fire Support rule?
The rule says the following, and is actually quite clear:
... If you do so, then the weapons used by the Formation's Ghostkeels, and by any unit of Stealth Battlesuits from this Formation that are within 6" of a Ghostkeel from this Formation, have the Ignores Cover special rule, and these models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill for that Shooting phase...
In the Vehicle wargear section is there a way to get our skimmers to shoot as fast (as in the past) or a way to let them split their fire of their weapons (like there used to)?
It was the loss of these things that really hurt hammerheads and devilfish.
Jayden63 wrote: In the Vehicle wargear section is there a way to get our skimmers to shoot as fast (as in the past) or a way to let them split their fire of their weapons (like there used to)?
It was the loss of these things that really hurt hammerheads and devilfish.
Sadly no. I was also hoping for vehicle VT, but that also did not happen.
Jayden63 wrote: In the Vehicle wargear section is there a way to get our skimmers to shoot as fast (as in the past) or a way to let them split their fire of their weapons (like there used to)?
It was the loss of these things that really hurt hammerheads and devilfish.
Nope. Still no multi-trackers or target locks for vehicles.
So the secondary weapons on hammerheads remain almost useless.
On the other hand one of the hunter cadre rules allows vehicles taken as part of the cadre to move flat out and then fire as long as they start their shooting phase within 12" of the commander or fireblade. So that's kinda like being fast, ish.
Fishboy wrote: The rule for the Stealth formation states if one of the units from the formation is within 6" of the Ghostkeel they receive +1 BS. Does this mean the Ghostkeel gets +1BS for being within 6" of itself and if it has 3 in the unit receives an additional +1 BS for the Fire Support rule?
The rule says the following, and is actually quite clear:
... If you do so, then the weapons used by the Formation's Ghostkeels, and by any unit of Stealth Battlesuits from this Formation that are within 6" of a Ghostkeel from this Formation, have the Ignores Cover special rule, and these models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill for that Shooting phase...
Thanks Ghaz. I don't have the codex so am going on rumors still and you putting the wording up helps a lot. It is also my understanding that units with the MC rule gaine +1 BS if there are three MC in the unit (I think it is called fire support). I have not seen anyone expound on this rule so I am hunting for details and trying to see if it stacks with the formation rules.
Fishboy wrote: The rule for the Stealth formation states if one of the units from the formation is within 6" of the Ghostkeel they receive +1 BS. Does this mean the Ghostkeel gets +1BS for being within 6" of itself and if it has 3 in the unit receives an additional +1 BS for the Fire Support rule?
No, that's not how the rule works. However, both the fire support and wall of mirrors rule should apply, giving the OSF +2 BS.
Fishboy wrote: The rule for the Stealth formation states if one of the units from the formation is within 6" of the Ghostkeel they receive +1 BS. Does this mean the Ghostkeel gets +1BS for being within 6" of itself and if it has 3 in the unit receives an additional +1 BS for the Fire Support rule?
The rule says the following, and is actually quite clear:
... If you do so, then the weapons used by the Formation's Ghostkeels, and by any unit of Stealth Battlesuits from this Formation that are within 6" of a Ghostkeel from this Formation, have the Ignores Cover special rule, and these models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill for that Shooting phase...
Thanks Ghaz. I don't have the codex so am going on rumors still and you putting the wording up helps a lot. It is also my understanding that units with the MC rule gaine +1 BS if there are three MC in the unit (I think it is called fire support). I have not seen anyone expound on this rule so I am hunting for details and trying to see if it stacks with the formation rules.
Nope. The only way to gain +1 BS is to have 3 or more whole units shooting at a single target, or the optimised stealth Cadre rule.
Fishboy wrote: The rule for the Stealth formation states if one of the units from the formation is within 6" of the Ghostkeel they receive +1 BS. Does this mean the Ghostkeel gets +1BS for being within 6" of itself and if it has 3 in the unit receives an additional +1 BS for the Fire Support rule?
The rule says the following, and is actually quite clear:
... If you do so, then the weapons used by the Formation's Ghostkeels, and by any unit of Stealth Battlesuits from this Formation that are within 6" of a Ghostkeel from this Formation, have the Ignores Cover special rule, and these models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill for that Shooting phase...
Thanks Ghaz. I don't have the codex so am going on rumors still and you putting the wording up helps a lot. It is also my understanding that units with the MC rule gaine +1 BS if there are three MC in the unit (I think it is called fire support). I have not seen anyone expound on this rule so I am hunting for details and trying to see if it stacks with the formation rules.
Nope. The only way to gain +1 BS is to have 3 or more whole units shooting at a single target, or the optimised stealth Cadre rule.
Err, no. If a unit has 1 model with the Fire Team special rule and has 3+ vehicles/MC all vehicles and MCs in the unit get +1BS as well. It does stack with the formation rules. Riptides, Ghostkeels, Hammerheads and Skyrays are the only models that have it though, IIRC.
Fishboy wrote: The rule for the Stealth formation states if one of the units from the formation is within 6" of the Ghostkeel they receive +1 BS. Does this mean the Ghostkeel gets +1BS for being within 6" of itself and if it has 3 in the unit receives an additional +1 BS for the Fire Support rule?
No, that's not how the rule works. However, both the fire support and wall of mirrors rule should apply, giving the OSF +2 BS.
Fishboy wrote: The rule for the Stealth formation states if one of the units from the formation is within 6" of the Ghostkeel they receive +1 BS. Does this mean the Ghostkeel gets +1BS for being within 6" of itself and if it has 3 in the unit receives an additional +1 BS for the Fire Support rule?
The rule says the following, and is actually quite clear:
... If you do so, then the weapons used by the Formation's Ghostkeels, and by any unit of Stealth Battlesuits from this Formation that are within 6" of a Ghostkeel from this Formation, have the Ignores Cover special rule, and these models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill for that Shooting phase...
Thanks Ghaz. I don't have the codex so am going on rumors still and you putting the wording up helps a lot. It is also my understanding that units with the MC rule gaine +1 BS if there are three MC in the unit (I think it is called fire support). I have not seen anyone expound on this rule so I am hunting for details and trying to see if it stacks with the formation rules.
Nope. The only way to gain +1 BS is to have 3 or more whole units shooting at a single target, or the optimised stealth Cadre rule.
The +1 BS and the Ignores cover calls out Ghostkeels and stealth teams within 6" of the ghostkeels, so yes they do get +1 bs all the time. In fact a combined fire, fire team 3 man ghostkeel unit will be bs6 ignores cover without a single markerlight token in this formation.
The +1 BS and the Ignores cover calls out Ghostkeels and stealth teams within 6" of the ghostkeels, so yes they do get +1 bs all the time. In fact a combined fire, fire team 3 man ghostkeel unit will be bs6 ignores cover without a single markerlight token in this formation.
The +1 BS and the Ignores cover calls out Ghostkeels and stealth teams within 6" of the ghostkeels, so yes they do get +1 bs all the time. In fact a combined fire, fire team 3 man ghostkeel unit will be bs6 ignores cover without a single markerlight token in this formation.
Fishboy wrote: The Codex specifically states Drones do not prevent a character from joining another unit. However if the Character dies the drones stay in that unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit...Ninja posters
Can a IC join a group of Drones do they form one unit to were you can then join it to another unit?
Only drones purchased as wargear allow the characters to drag them along into other units. Same as fenrisian wolves in the space wolves codex.
Drone units bought alone (ie from their dataslate in the fast attack slot or a formation) are their own unit.
Thanks, I was curious if I could do anything extra with the drones that come with O'Ralai. I Just had him leave that unit do he doesn't get the toughness loss and hide him in terrain.
Poor R'Alai has as special rule that prevents him from joining any units whatsoever. Until one of his piddly drones dies his unit is majority T4.
Yeah I just have him leave the drones behind. Wish I could have someone else Scoop them up.
Theres no rule that says you can do that either. he's stuck with them until they die.
I will have to pose that question to FW. Will update if I get an answer.
That works. I"m going by the rule that states drones as wargear always accompany the suit that bought them. As it reads from the 7e book : "Drones taken as upgrades for a unit act as additional squad members in all regards. they are unable to leave their unit and must maintain unit coherency with their unit at all times. ... Independent characters who have taken drones as upgrades are still permitted to join units" (except r'alai - my addition) ... it goes on but basically the drones always follow the character that bought them.
Just got my answer from FW posting as an update
He may leave his Drone unit (there was a typo in his rules profile and he should be an Independent Character rather than a Character).
Fishboy wrote: The Codex specifically states Drones do not prevent a character from joining another unit. However if the Character dies the drones stay in that unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit...Ninja posters
Can a IC join a group of Drones do they form one unit to were you can then join it to another unit?
Only drones purchased as wargear allow the characters to drag them along into other units. Same as fenrisian wolves in the space wolves codex.
Drone units bought alone (ie from their dataslate in the fast attack slot or a formation) are their own unit.
Thanks, I was curious if I could do anything extra with the drones that come with O'Ralai. I Just had him leave that unit do he doesn't get the toughness loss and hide him in terrain.
Poor R'Alai has as special rule that prevents him from joining any units whatsoever. Until one of his piddly drones dies his unit is majority T4.
Yeah I just have him leave the drones behind. Wish I could have someone else Scoop them up.
Theres no rule that says you can do that either. he's stuck with them until they die.
I will have to pose that question to FW. Will update if I get an answer.
That works. I"m going by the rule that states drones as wargear always accompany the suit that bought them. As it reads from the 7e book : "Drones taken as upgrades for a unit act as additional squad members in all regards. they are unable to leave their unit and must maintain unit coherency with their unit at all times. ... Independent characters who have taken drones as upgrades are still permitted to join units" (except r'alai - my addition) ... it goes on but basically the drones always follow the character that bought them.
Just got my answer from FW posting as an update
He may leave his Drone unit (there was a typo in his rules profile and he should be an Independent Character rather than a Character).
The +1 BS and the Ignores cover calls out Ghostkeels and stealth teams within 6" of the ghostkeels, so yes they do get +1 bs all the time. In fact a combined fire, fire team 3 man ghostkeel unit will be bs6 ignores cover without a single markerlight token in this formation.
THIS - SO MUCH THIS!!!
Okay now you see where I am going with this heh. Next question is do the bonuses to BS work with snap shooting (i.e. Flyers, over watch, etc)?
The +1 BS and the Ignores cover calls out Ghostkeels and stealth teams within 6" of the ghostkeels, so yes they do get +1 bs all the time. In fact a combined fire, fire team 3 man ghostkeel unit will be bs6 ignores cover without a single markerlight token in this formation.
THIS - SO MUCH THIS!!!
Okay now you see where I am going with this heh. Next question is do the bonuses to BS work with snap shooting (i.e. Flyers, over watch, etc)?
The +1 BS and the Ignores cover calls out Ghostkeels and stealth teams within 6" of the ghostkeels, so yes they do get +1 bs all the time. In fact a combined fire, fire team 3 man ghostkeel unit will be bs6 ignores cover without a single markerlight token in this formation.
THIS - SO MUCH THIS!!!
Okay now you see where I am going with this heh. Next question is do the bonuses to BS work with snap shooting (i.e. Flyers, over watch, etc)?
No, because snap shot is a fixed value modifier (BS 1) and in order of operations, fixed value modifiers are applied last. Marker Lights are an exception because they state that they alter snap shots, changing the order of operations specifically.
Snapshots are unmodified by anything that doesnt specifically state it modifies it, i.e. markerlights. Overwatch the same way, which Tau are not the only ones that have rules for that one.
I think the Tau could easily be one of the best factions in the game. A few of our formations will see tournament play and the majority of them are casual viable easily. Only one is disappointing. Other than that the good units got great and the bad units stayed the same. Also a single Stormsurge being supported will be a nightmare for your opponents.
I think the theme of this codex was "3". Many of our new special/formation rules involves three's now. It's almost making me think of a temp or something to build armies around.
I think the Tau could easily be one of the best factions in the game. A few of our formations will see tournament play and the majority of them are casual viable easily. Only one is disappointing. Other than that the good units got great and the bad units stayed the same. Also a single Stormsurge being supported will be a nightmare for your opponents.
I think the theme of this codex was "3". Many of our new special/formation rules involves three's now. It's almost making me think of a temp or something to build armies around.
Sounds good. Outside of new units/rules. how is it lore wise?
Yeah i think Remoras are considered a vehicle. Not sure why, they are by no means big enough to have an armor value like a vehicle - i'd expect them to be the same as the Coldstar which is an FMC in movement only.
Have to admit, i wish the Coldstar was either immune to grounding tests or took reduced strength so he didnt have a stupendous faceplant of death. Despite being a hilarious mental image.
Ah, oh well. Yeah, coldstar's limited feasibility makes him a lackluster HQ choice at best then. I honestly don't know what the writers were thinking to make such a low T model a flier without even the possibility of ablative wounds to mitigate the fragility. Huh.
Isn't it only like a 10 dollar price increase from before? I think the Crisis suit box is the one box that is fine price-wise. Especially with how much more detailed and pose-able it is.
agnosto wrote: Ah, oh well. Yeah, coldstar's limited feasibility makes him a lackluster HQ choice at best then. I honestly don't know what the writers were thinking to make such a low T model a flier without even the possibility of ablative wounds to mitigate the fragility. Huh.
Aha! You made the assumption that the people at GW know the rules! When you forge the narrative rules like grounding checks are secondary.
Yeah, it's pretty obvious what the GW design team's intent was behind the coldstar; you're supposed to pick it up and swoop it around the table while making flying noises, and all of your opponents models that get knocked over during its "flight" are removed as casualties.
Narrative.
Honestly though, I'm surprised more people aren't foaming at the mouth about it and calling it broken as gak just because it's in the Tau codex. "Leave it to Tau to break all the rules again, giving themselves FMCs that aren't even real MCs! It'll murder my poor Guardsmen with its 6 twin-linked S5 shots and has a tank-busting missile pod for my chimeras, TOO?! NEW ELDAR!"
Yeay for buying the new Tau at 30-35% off I am very eager to start building Tau again. I still have the first few WD from they were originally released, oh the memories.
Deathklaat wrote: Yeay for buying the new Tau at 30-35% off I am very eager to start building Tau again. I still have the first few WD from they were originally released, oh the memories.
McNinja wrote: True. My browser had somehow switched to NZ...
Still absurd. A ghostkeel should just the cost more than $50 unless it comes with LEDs building and is fully posable.
It's usually because the NZ pre-order pages comes up first. People link to them and your browser remembers it the next time you go back.
That's the second time I've seen him confuse AU/NZ prices for US prices in this thread alone, so my bet is he's forgotten already.
Can't wait for my codex to ship out Too bad there's hardly anywhere to play while I'm in SK :(
Oopsie doopsies.
Crisis suits are $75, Ghostkeels are $75, Riptides are $85, Stormsurges are $150.
Despite being less than AUS/NZ prices, they're still ridiculous, especially considering I could get 6 small gundam converge models for $30 on amazon. In fact, I could replace every battlesuit model with a gundam model for %50 of the cost of a GW army. Hell, I could buy a gold-plated gundam for $299 and use it as a Ta'unar and have saved money compared to the real Taunar model.
Those Gundam models, especially the Master and Perfect Grades, are an absolute delight to assemble and work with. They make Games Workshop plastic models look like dinosaurs in comparison.
Multiple colors on one sprue. No glue required. Fully pose-able. Obviously, the same techniques wouldn't work with 28mm scale infantry, but the vehicles and larger models could be amazing.
Half of my "Crisis Suits" are converted Gundam Converge models. One of my Riptides is a Master Grade unit... the one with the giant rotary cannon. If you throw on a few Tau bits and paint to match the rest of your army, most people won't say a word.
Sidstyler wrote: Yeah, it's pretty obvious what the GW design team's intent was behind the coldstar; you're supposed to pick it up and swoop it around the table while making flying noises, and all of your opponents models that get knocked over during its "flight" are removed as casualties.
Narrative.
Honestly though, I'm surprised more people aren't foaming at the mouth about it and calling it broken as gak just because it's in the Tau codex. "Leave it to Tau to break all the rules again, giving themselves FMCs that aren't even real MCs! It'll murder my poor Guardsmen with its 6 twin-linked S5 shots and has a tank-busting missile pod for my chimeras, TOO?! NEW ELDAR!"
Still don't have my book but if he is listed as an actual FMC then he can join units of riptides and ghost keels now right? Maybe that was why they limited some of his wargear. Can he pick up any sig systems?
Sidstyler wrote: Yeah, it's pretty obvious what the GW design team's intent was behind the coldstar; you're supposed to pick it up and swoop it around the table while making flying noises, and all of your opponents models that get knocked over during its "flight" are removed as casualties.
Narrative.
Honestly though, I'm surprised more people aren't foaming at the mouth about it and calling it broken as gak just because it's in the Tau codex. "Leave it to Tau to break all the rules again, giving themselves FMCs that aren't even real MCs! It'll murder my poor Guardsmen with its 6 twin-linked S5 shots and has a tank-busting missile pod for my chimeras, TOO?! NEW ELDAR!"
Still don't have my book but if he is listed as an actual FMC then he can join units of riptides and ghost keels now right? Maybe that was why they limited some of his wargear. Can he pick up any sig systems?
ICs of any variety can't join units that have any MCs in them. So, no. He can't join units of Riptides of Ghostkeels. No IC can.
Sidstyler wrote: Yeah, it's pretty obvious what the GW design team's intent was behind the coldstar; you're supposed to pick it up and swoop it around the table while making flying noises, and all of your opponents models that get knocked over during its "flight" are removed as casualties.
Narrative.
Honestly though, I'm surprised more people aren't foaming at the mouth about it and calling it broken as gak just because it's in the Tau codex. "Leave it to Tau to break all the rules again, giving themselves FMCs that aren't even real MCs! It'll murder my poor Guardsmen with its 6 twin-linked S5 shots and has a tank-busting missile pod for my chimeras, TOO?! NEW ELDAR!"
Still don't have my book but if he is listed as an actual FMC then he can join units of riptides and ghost keels now right? Maybe that was why they limited some of his wargear. Can he pick up any sig systems?
As far I know, he cannot join any MC units. He also does not have any access to sign systems, which means no Iridium, which means a stray bolster or Las gun hit and he has a good chance of dying instantly.
Deathklaat wrote: Yeay for buying the new Tau at 30-35% off I am very eager to start building Tau again. I still have the first few WD from they were originally released, oh the memories.
Crisis variant, built for space warfare. In game it's a commander upgrade, that makes it a FMC (without the rules like alpha strike, smash, ect.) but locks it's weapons to a 6 shot burst cannon and a missile pod.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The XV86 Coldstar Battlesuit variant is covered in fins which streamline it, allowing super-fast movement across the theatre of battle, annihilating enemies with sharp shocks from its burst cannon. The on-board holophoton countermeasures and telemetry suites feed the Coldstar and its Commander pilot a massive variety of information that would overwhelm the untrained mind - instead, in this case, it allows the Coldstar Battlesuit to soar over its foes with a grace that enemy targeting systems simply cannot hope to catch.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The XV86 Coldstar Battlesuit variant is covered in fins which streamline it, allowing super-fast movement across the theatre of battle, annihilating enemies with sharp shocks from its burst cannon. The on-board holophoton countermeasures and telemetry suites feed the Coldstar and its Commander pilot a massive variety of information that would overwhelm the untrained mind - instead, in this case, it allows the Coldstar Battlesuit to soar over its foes with a grace that enemy targeting systems simply cannot hope to catch.
Well, until he's against Broadsides with railguns and velocity trackers
I particularly like what this guy has done with the shoulder mounted weapons. I think it would work particularly well for the fusion collider. The more regular Battlesuit looking heads work really well too.
Okay, so I got the new crisis suits today, and the kit is not as amazing as I was lead to believe. GW's idea of "unprecedented posability" is apparently the same style of ball joints that the old suits had on the shoulders and hips. Again, "unprecedented"...
The ball joints have the same style of tabs on them that the larger suits have, so they're meant to be assembled in certain "stock" poses, but you can cut the tab to rotate the joint freely...but the knees still aren't posable. The leg is basically one long piece with the thigh armor designed to fit over it, and then the ankle glues into the foot. There are at least three different sets of poses though, so you can still get a great deal more variety with them than you could with the old kit, and it may still be possible to cut and convert them into even more poses like some already were doing with the old kit, but I was expecting riptide-level of posability so I'm a little let down by that. The arms are the same way, too; they're in fixed positions, but you get different sets that you can mix and match to get more variety. The torso does indeed seem made to pivot, though; there's essentially a large ball joint there and I imagine you can get a pretty wide range of movement with that, so that's a pretty big deal and probably makes up for the rest. Also, the jet packs seem "posable" too, as there's a hole in the torso and a straight peg on the jet pack that plugs into that, so it seems likely that you can turn them one way or another if you wanted, though I obviously haven't assembled one to try this for myself yet.
It comes with the weapons it's advertised with; 4 plasma rifles, 4 fusion blasters, 3 missile pods, etc. The missile pods are kinda neat, they have a lot more detail than the old ones did, including a new bit that looks like some kind of targeting lens, but it looks as if they're meant to be mounted on their sides now, instead of sitting flat on the shoulder/arm like before. The burst cannons are apparently meant to fit on one arm or the other, there seems to be two "lefts" and two "rights" in the kit but I'm not sure how exactly they fit. It doesn't look like they can be underslung and it seems as if they only go on one way, which is kinda lame since I liked how it looked if you used the side tabs to mount it to the arm. I thought that was just how the 'Eavy Metal team chose to glue theirs on, but that's apparently the only way they go on, and in my opinion it doesn't look so good because the gun is quite large and sticks out quite a bit like that. Other than that I love the detail in the new kit; all the different heads, the subtle variations in the torsos, and there's a ton of new detail added to lots of parts that were very plain and boring before (one of those rare cases where a kit actually needed all the detail that GW is obsessed with nowadays, and only serves to make the kit more interesting as opposed to cluttering it up); even the jet packs vary, with the large, gold gyros sitting in different positions on them as if to indicate they're spinning or something. The bottom of the feet even have grooves in them as opposed to being perfectly flat, sort of like a Space Marine's boot. I love the design of the new legs, probably my favorite part of the new kit (despite not being posable at the knees as I was hoping). They actually have a rounded surface that sorta matches the new fire warrior leg armor now. I was always disappointed with this before on the old kit, since the 'Eavy Metal models made it look like the old legs were rounded from certain angles but the actual kit was straight, flat, and kinda boring.
Overall I'm still pretty happy with the kit. I have some issues with it, but it's a huge improvement over the old kit regardless, and I feel it's definitely worth the extra $10 (though it can be argued the models were overpriced to begin with, like all GW kits). In any case I imagine they'll make you more friends than riptides and ghostkeels will, so...
EDIT: Oh yeah, the painting guide sucks. I guess that's why it was only $20...it literally only has two schemes in it; the standard ochre T'au scheme and the (in my opinion crappy) version of the Vior'la scheme that they've been showing you how to paint in the White Dwarf, which is nowhere near as good as the 'Eavy Metal team's way of painting Vior'la. The color plates aren't great either, they kinda show you some different team markings/designations but it's nowhere near as detailed as what I wanted. And there's an advertisement in the back for the new decal sheets, with no real explanation as to what any of the vehicle warning/hazard signs or any of the other symbols or markings on the sheet actually mean.
So the iBook codex just became available, had a quick skim through it, seems pretty much as described, effectively Tau 6.5 plus formations. So, nothing to write home about, but not a problem either.
Except for one thing, the artwork accompanying the Stormsurge is absolutely laughable. It's that same MS paint style that they've been using for the colour scheme diagrams (which are at least a little better executed in this one than the SM codex), but used for a "dynamic" battle scene. What a way to try to sell your great new LoWGW! It's frankly embarrassing and I can't believe any company would want to put that in a professional publication.
The knees arent posable? Oh cmon gw that was the biggest thing we wanted the new crisis suits for to begin with.
Less incentive to buy any now than i had before. Considering i got like 12 of the suckers lying around lol
Deathklaat wrote: Yeay for buying the new Tau at 30-35% off I am very eager to start building Tau again. I still have the first few WD from they were originally released, oh the memories.
ANy one else seen the War Zone - Kauyon? Is it me or is it just the Tau Codex ver2? Only thing I can see different is the fluff is Damocles specific. As far as Tau go, I mean. The Space Marines get some nice perks. I may get this as my hard copy Tau book do to the Marine formations.
Vineheart01 wrote: The knees arent posable? Oh cmon gw that was the biggest thing we wanted the new crisis suits for to begin with.
Less incentive to buy any now than i had before. Considering i got like 12 of the suckers lying around lol
Still might be possible to pose them, but you'd have to make a cut under the round part you see there...kinda tricky since it's not a straight cut and there's some detail you might risk damaging. Some of the arms would be so tricky to try and repose that it almost doesn't look like it's worth doing, but like I said there are three sets of them, and if you buy multiple boxes you can mix and match even more to get the kinda look you're going for.
EDIT: Actually I dunno, on closer inspection some of the arms look like they might not be too hard to cut...the back part of the arm would be a straight cut with a jeweler's saw, but when you get to the front naturally you have the rounded part beneath the rotating joint, and I dunno about anyone else but I always hate trying to do cuts that have a curve like that. Like I said before, I've seen people cut and repose the old suits (and I've done it myself), so I think it's definitely possible with the new kit if you're determined enough.
But I agree, would have been so much better if they were designed to be posable at the knee and elbow, as well. Perfect, even. But I guess there's not enough room on the sprues for that since they had to include all the drone parts...and apparently there are $36 worth of drones in the kit, since GW values them at $6 each. Anyway, like I said I think the kit's okay, I bought three of them and I'm still interested in replacing all of my suits eventually. Honestly I'm more annoyed about the painting guide.
EDIT 2: More pics of the arms, in case this helps anyone. Sorry the pics turned out upside down.
So...not that much variety I guess. Straight, slightly bent, and then a pair that's bent almost 90 degrees. Guess you gotta play with them to see what you can do.
Why would they bother making the legs multipiece if the knees dont bend?
Admittedly that looks easier to cut up than the original legs do, but they really should have let us bend them by default.
Ghostkeel technically can be posed but it dislikes sitting in any position thats not its stock one. Thats another one that kinda ticks me off, but since the thigh/shin is already separated i was able to get around that issue.
I don't know. I would have preferred if they just left the drones off the sprue and used all that extra space to make truly posable limbs, and maybe give us more extra weapons and support systems instead (or heads, torso plates etc.), and then just throw three of those sprues from the drone kit in there. Honestly I don't see the point of the drone sprue anyway; if they were going to go through the effort of making a new drone sprue then why the feth did they spend these past two years putting all the drones on the sprues for all the new Tau kits as they got released? Even GW has to know that they're probably not going to sell many of those $12 blisters...older Tau players like myself probably have a few dozen unbuilt gun drones just lying around, and we're not going to feel like spending $6 per drone when we used to get them practically for free, and I also don't imagine many new Tau players being at all excited about the prospect of spending $6 on a fething drone, either. Hobby's expensive enough as it is without spending stupid money like that on a "model" that's basically a frisbee not much bigger than an average base sitting on a flight stand.
It might have required a slightly bigger box to fit the extra drone sprues in, but is that really such a big deal that you have to compromise on the quality of the kit? According to GW it apparently is.
It would seem I'm GW's ideal customer though, because like I said, I still like the kit and plan on buying more eventually, but it's still disappointing. Honestly I suspect that's the reason why GW never uploaded sprue pics for the crisis suit kit, like they did for the commander, fire warriors and pretty much every single other new Tau kit that came out this month. Should've known better.
I guess it says a lot about GW whenever you're trying to defend them, and you still come off sounding like a bitter hater. lol...
I don't know if I like the idea of "exclusive rules" on that Tidewall Counterstrike Cadre.
I could see some kind of limited rulebook or exclusive rules print out, but surely there isn't going to be some weird, only-100-copies-in-the-country Tidewall formation owned by whoever throws down on that box set.
Rare models I'm ok with, cool box sets I'm ok with, but when people don't have equal access to the rules the game gets a little disjointed in my opinion.
Osseo wrote: I don't know if I like the idea of "exclusive rules" on that Tidewall Counterstrike Cadre.
I could see some kind of limited rulebook or exclusive rules print out, but surely there isn't going to be some weird, only-100-copies-in-the-country Tidewall formation owned by whoever throws down on that box set.
Rare models I'm ok with, cool box sets I'm ok with, but when people don't have equal access to the rules the game gets a little disjointed in my opinion.
I wonder what they mean?
You seem to be forgetting about the Skyhammer formation for marines. They made that one exclusive to a $400 (?) web bundle that was limited to like 400 copies or so. This is not new behavior from GW.
You seem to be forgetting about the Skyhammer formation for marines. They made that one exclusive to a $400 (?) web bundle that was limited to like 400 copies or so. This is not new behavior from GW.
I didn't actually play back then (I don't know actually know what a Skyhammer is...) but how do people go about getting access to the rules so they can play with the formations? It's not like it couldn't be duplicated using the same models, even if you don't have the physical rules from the box.
Well if you build them stock they're still "fancier" than the old model, that's for damn sure. You would have to do cutting and a little bit of sculpting just to get an arm extended out, and/or a bent leg. Now you can get much more dynamic-looking suits much more easily than before, that have way more detail than before. Far from a failure in my opinion, it's just not what everyone wanted.
You seem to be forgetting about the Skyhammer formation for marines. They made that one exclusive to a $400 (?) web bundle that was limited to like 400 copies or so. This is not new behavior from GW.
I didn't actually play back then (I don't know actually know what a Skyhammer is...) but how do people go about getting access to the rules so they can play with the formations? It's not like it couldn't be duplicated using the same models, even if you don't have the physical rules from the box.
It was May or June of this year. You only got the rules for the formation if you bought the boxset below:
Devastator Squads in drop pods get the relentless special rule, meaning they can fire their Grav Cannons, Lascannons, or Missile Launchers at full BS the turn they drop down.
Any unit that gets targeted by the Devastators in this formation must take a leadership test at 3D6 and if it is failed they immediately go to ground.
Assault Squads in this formation can not only deepstrike turn 1, but they may assault the turn in which they do because buy those kits that’s why.
Oh, and if a unit went to ground due to those Devastators the Assault Squads get to re-roll both hits and wounds when they assault that unit on turn one after deep striking because buy these kits that’s why.
The entire force (2 Devastator Squads in Drop Pods and 2 Assault Squads) can either come in turn 1 or turn 2 with no need to roll for it.
Deathwing silently cry into their For the Emperor O’s.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Hmm... the overall Tau terrain box has two of the walls, but the actual box has one. Now I see the point of the big box.
Yeah. It's not QUITE as spectacular a deal as getting 2 shield walls, though, because the wall section comes with a round... thing... the part that can be configured with 1 set of steps or two (looks a bit like the drone port). If you buy 2 wall sections separately, you'll get 2 of those. And they're quite big.
I think, anyhow. I bought the tidewall rampart, but have only given it a cursory glance.
Sorry, this has problem been covered somewhere in the last 180 pages, but what's the deal with the new Codex vs that Kauyon book? I'm told that if you have the old codex then you don't need the new one, but tather the Kauyon book?
AduroT wrote: Sorry, this has problem been covered somewhere in the last 180 pages, but what's the deal with the new Codex vs that Kauyon book? I'm told that if you have the old codex then you don't need the new one, but tather the Kauyon book?
The Kauyon book has all the new rules in it, so you can either get the new codex, or use the old codex and Kauyon. So if you were planning to buy Kauyon anyway, you don't need to also buy the new codex. Although if you weren't gonna get Kauyon, the new codex is cheaper (but doesn't have the fortification rules).
AduroT wrote: Sorry, this has problem been covered somewhere in the last 180 pages, but what's the deal with the new Codex vs that Kauyon book? I'm told that if you have the old codex then you don't need the new one, but tather the Kauyon book?
The Kauyon book has all the new rules in it, so you can either get the new codex, or use the old codex and Kauyon. So if you were planning to buy Kauyon anyway, you don't need to also buy the new codex. Although if you weren't gonna get Kauyon, the new codex is cheaper (but doesn't have the fortification rules).
So they didn't change the rules for existing units, just added new ones?
AduroT wrote: Sorry, this has problem been covered somewhere in the last 180 pages, but what's the deal with the new Codex vs that Kauyon book? I'm told that if you have the old codex then you don't need the new one, but tather the Kauyon book?
The Kauyon book has all the new rules in it, so you can either get the new codex, or use the old codex and Kauyon. So if you were planning to buy Kauyon anyway, you don't need to also buy the new codex. Although if you weren't gonna get Kauyon, the new codex is cheaper (but doesn't have the fortification rules).
So they didn't change the rules for existing units, just added new ones?
There are some changes, but updated data sheets are included in Kauyon for any changed units.
Samurai_Eduh wrote: Not even mad about the exclusive formation. Its just like rare foils and cards in magic.
I am. It's like the constant "exclusive models!11!!"(read: alternate sculpt tied to some bundle or preorder) for Infinity--it's detrimental to the game as a whole.
Jadenim wrote: So the iBook codex just became available, had a quick skim through it, seems pretty much as described, effectively Tau 6.5 plus formations. So, nothing to write home about, but not a problem either.
Except for one thing, the artwork accompanying the Stormsurge is absolutely laughable. It's that same MS paint style that they've been using for the colour scheme diagrams (which are at least a little better executed in this one than the SM codex), but used for a "dynamic" battle scene. What a way to try to sell your great new LoWGW! It's frankly embarrassing and I can't believe any company would want to put that in a professional publication.
Even if you don't want the Broadside you can just take one as a "tax" to have so much guaranteed XV8's drop on turn 2. Then field regular Broadside sin the Hunter Cadre.
.
in the Dark Crusade as he is portrayed as a noblebright commander, in contrast the Tau commander in the next game Soulstorm, Or'es'Ka, who is very much a That Guy in the campaign and basically inspired the KX-139 Ta'unar and KV-128 Stormsurge with his "Great Strength, Great Strike" tactic.
Should've known better.
