PiñaColada wrote: Someone else noticed that the article states "[...] With Dakka! Dakka! Dakka! – which lets Orks generate additional hits when they roll an unmodified 6..." in the blurb about the megatrakk skrapjet
Additional hits, not shots. Do we think that's a typo or have they massively improved the rule since it was previewed? It could just be a clumsy way of saying that the extra shots have a chance of scoring additional hits I suppose
They're just hyping up their own rules.
While being, also, technically correct; in a roundabout sense.
JimOnMars wrote: Wartrike will also allow plenty of turn-1 assaults for trukks! Bye Bye gunlines!
a) trukk isn't much of a threat. Especially as good gunlines either have chaff you have to charge or aren't that worried as they can fall back and shoot back anyway.
b) 14"+d6+2d6=24" threat range. Even with reroll adding bit...For gunline that's fairly easy to avoid. You need threat range of at least 28" to reliably T1 charge gunlines. And gunline can always deploy bit further if they really feel the need.
Thought the extra hits on a 6 had a been the rule leaked from day one.
I think a lot of us are forgetting that these new Vic's will also probably have more strategema too, perhaps a double shoot strat or something similar...
I like that these are gonna either eat up a lot of AT shots, or a lot of Heavy bolter shots not being sent at my foot slogging Boyz. As far as ITC goes, if I can run 6 of these into your line and just tie you up for 3 to four turns, my Boyz can steal objective points and dominate board control... I see a lot of potential really.
Latro_ wrote: Seems a lot of convoluted meh ork weapon options on models that will be fairly easy to kill and will hit poorly.
Really? "Easy to kill"?
Spoiler:
That's going to be a Big Deal, especially since there is no range that you can get around to negate it.
Then you have the Boomdakka Snazzwagon, with this:
Spoiler:
This might actually be meaner than Alaitoc with some of this stuff.
Good if you have token unit. IF you have several enemy will shoot one, then shoot others. Much like rotate ion shield isn't all that useful with knight army with multiple knights. I have got good usage out of that strategem once as vs multi knight list it's easy strategem to get through as long as your AT isn't style of one shadowsword only(and even that can deal with regular knight with strategem so just don't shoot the 4++ one)
JimOnMars wrote: Wartrike will also allow plenty of turn-1 assaults for trukks! Bye Bye gunlines!
a) trukk isn't much of a threat. Especially as good gunlines either have chaff you have to charge or aren't that worried as they can fall back and shoot back anyway.
b) 14"+d6+2d6=24" threat range. Even with reroll adding bit...For gunline that's fairly easy to avoid. You need threat range of at least 28" to reliably T1 charge gunlines. And gunline can always deploy bit further if they really feel the need.
There isn't take much room and pushing them back concedes board control. They also still get a reroll on the charge do they not?
You'd have to push that stuff WAY back to be secure.
Doesnt the warboss on bike give WAAAGGGHHH! to bikes already? I havent played 40k in over a year (been all up on sigmar) so I forget. I assume this is not the case and Im remembering wrong, or the warboss on warbike is going away.. or changing..
That makes me happy...but I run a mostly grot/grot converted ork army. If I have more excuses to use grots I will take them all! Especially now that I'm gonna have to pick out which of these buggies to use and convert them too..
JimOnMars wrote: Wartrike will also allow plenty of turn-1 assaults for trukks! Bye Bye gunlines!
a) trukk isn't much of a threat. Especially as good gunlines either have chaff you have to charge or aren't that worried as they can fall back and shoot back anyway.
b) 14"+d6+2d6=24" threat range. Even with reroll adding bit...For gunline that's fairly easy to avoid. You need threat range of at least 28" to reliably T1 charge gunlines. And gunline can always deploy bit further if they really feel the need.
There isn't take much room and pushing them back concedes board control. They also still get a reroll on the charge do they not?
You'd have to push that stuff WAY back to be secure.
Also, a gunline that deploys 4" back has a deployment zone that's just 8" in width in a standard dawn of war deployment. Against something like IG, a leman russ or manticore is pretty big and they are going to struggle to place one down while still being able to screen it with infantry. Any gunline relying on bubble-buffs is gunna have a harder time getting max bubble coverage too. Limiting deployment width also makes it hard to do stuff like refused flanks.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: Doesnt the warboss on bike give WAAAGGGHHH! to bikes already? I havent played 40k in over a year (been all up on sigmar) so I forget. I assume this is not the case and Im remembering wrong, or the warboss on warbike is going away.. or changing..
The warboss on bike is going away and being replaced by the wartrike, which only gives waaagh to bikes and vehicles.
JimOnMars wrote: Wartrike will also allow plenty of turn-1 assaults for trukks! Bye Bye gunlines!
a) trukk isn't much of a threat. Especially as good gunlines either have chaff you have to charge or aren't that worried as they can fall back and shoot back anyway.
b) 14"+d6+2d6=24" threat range. Even with reroll adding bit...For gunline that's fairly easy to avoid. You need threat range of at least 28" to reliably T1 charge gunlines. And gunline can always deploy bit further if they really feel the need.
There isn't take much room and pushing them back concedes board control. They also still get a reroll on the charge do they not?
You'd have to push that stuff WAY back to be secure.
Well, I was thinking 4 Trukks of 48 boyz and nobz plus a dajumping blob of 40 more. Plus not every gunline can fallback and shoot with every unit. Maybe with the (presumed) nerfs to IG they won't be taken in such quantities anymore, leaving only the hapless Tau, which can still erase a lot but it would be hard pressed to get through 40 t6 and 88 t4 points in one go.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: Doesnt the warboss on bike give WAAAGGGHHH! to bikes already? I havent played 40k in over a year (been all up on sigmar) so I forget. I assume this is not the case and Im remembering wrong, or the warboss on warbike is going away.. or changing..
The warboss on bike is going away and being replaced by the wartrike, which only gives waaagh to bikes and vehicles.
The Forgeworld one might be staying though. He's still being listed on the site along with the nob bikers. Maybe the regular version will be removed and the named one will stay since he's just better for less points anyway.
i'd be surprised if walkers get an auto6 advance, but either way would be very useful to give them waaagh!
Also, since they basically just gave us the stratagem DDD as a general rule i wonder if theyre going to beef up the other stratagem they gave us, like remove the unit limitations or at least make it max30 models?
I would run trukk boyz again if i could spend a CP after they disembark to become 1 unit suddenly. Would only be 24 instead of 30, but thats way better than 12....
So, my blitz brigade will be accompanied by scrapjets and shokkjump dragsters and lead by a wartrike in future. Solid anti-tank on wheels and deff rollas advancing and charging
I'm even inclined to keep them in units of 3 so they I can cover more of them with the stratagem.
Jidmah wrote: So, my blitz brigade will be accompanied by scrapjets and shokkjump dragsters and lead by a wartrike in future. Solid anti-tank on wheels and deff rollas advancing and charging
I'm even inclined to keep them in units of 3 so they I can cover more of them with the stratagem.
Unfortunately with the way speedmob works I think this won't be possible. I don't think it gives you the option to not break up into individual units.
Vineheart01 wrote: i'd be surprised if walkers get an auto6 advance, but either way would be very useful to give them waaagh!
Also, since they basically just gave us the stratagem DDD as a general rule i wonder if theyre going to beef up the other stratagem they gave us, like remove the unit limitations or at least make it max30 models?
I would run trukk boyz again if i could spend a CP after they disembark to become 1 unit suddenly. Would only be 24 instead of 30, but thats way better than 12....
You can have a unit of 22, leaving 2 slots for weirdboy / painboy or boss. Not perfect but still killy.
Gorkanaught just gets 18 shots now with the big gun.
Closed captions for the video impaired.
Spoiler:
Deffkilla wartrike stats and other bitz:
Single model armed with a Killa Jet, Snagga Klaw, and 3 twin Boomsticks.
M14 ws2 bs5 s5 t6 w8 attacks5 ld7 sv4
Killa jet
Select one profile before attacking with this weapon:
-Burna Rng 8 Assaultd6 s5 ap-1 damage 1 attacks auto hit.
-cutta. Rng8 assault2 s8 ap-4 d6 damage. If target is within half range of this weapon, roll 2 dice when determining damage and discard the lowest result.
Snagga Klaw (shooting). Rng8 assault1 s4 ap0 damage1 reroll to wound rolls with this weapon
Twin Boomstick. Range12 assault2 s5 ap0 dmg1. If target is with half range of this weapon, add 1 to hit rolls
Snagga Klaw (melee) s+2 ap-2 dmgD3 reroll to wound rolls for this weapon.
Abilities:
Ere we go, mob rule, dakka dakka dakka
Friendly <clan> ork bikes and vehicles that are within 6”s of this models at the start of the close charge phase may charge even if the advanced this turn.
Once per battle, when advancing, this model may add 6”s to their movement instead of rolling a die.
Explodes. When this model is reduced to 0wounds roll a d6. On a 6 each unit within 3”s suffers 1 mortal wound.
Other bitz:
Stompa’s deffkannon is rng72” heavy 3d6 s10 ap-4 dmgD6
Super gatler is Rng48” heavy3d6 s7 ap-2 dmg1
Flash gitz have a 4+save
Snazzgun is rng24” heavy3 s6 ap-2 dmg2
Sadly only 1 ammo runt per 5 Flash Gitz (index allowed one per model).
Gorkanaughts deffstorm mega shoota is now rng36”heavy18 s6 ap-1 dmg1 (index was heavy 3d6)
No kannons, lobbas, or zzap gunz in codex.
Mek gunz are essentially the same except bubble chukka is heavyd6 sD6 ap-D6 dmgD6 (The old index rule for allocating is gone.)
Stratagems:
Skarboyz 1CP
Use this stratagem before the battle. Select a Goffs Boyz unit from your army to become a Skarboy unit. Change the strength characteristic of models in this unit to 5. Skarboy units can only “mob up” with other Skarboy units.
‘Ard boyz 2CP
Use this stratagem before the battle. Select one Boyz unit from your army to become an ‘Ard Boyz unit. Change the save characteristic of models in this unit to 5+. ‘Ard Boyz units can only mob up with ‘Ard boyz units.
Gorkanaught just gets 18 shots now with the big gun.
I don't know... for what it looks like 18 shots still seems super low, especially for BS 5+. Most imperial stuff has more than that! Seriously, you'd be hitting like 4 D1 shots! Basically a glorified heavy bolter.
GW keeps up it's promise of having all models from 7th available. 'Ard Boyz were noticeably absent from the Index. Found a back door with using a Strategem! Clever. Tho 2 CP's for 5+ isn't brilliant...
Flash gitz look better but it's a shame about the ammo runtz, makes me think that is why the rumor is nobz aren't worth taking. No more cheap ablative wounds. Shame the gun is still heavy though. But 5 flash gitz with badmoonz trait and DDD kill 4-5 primaris marines in a shooting phase, which is pretty killy. Range remains a problem.
Nice to see the bubblechucka be less (but still very) random
Not sure I'd spend CP on Skarboyz or 'Ard boyz. Not running Goffs and 2CP for a 5+ armor save is pretty meh.
Not sold on 2CP for just a 5+. It's better than nothing, but it's hardly something.
Skarboyz sound fun; but they're going to be competing with Evil Sunz just for that +1, and that +1 is a lot to lose.
Flashgits lost ammo runts, which dampens their survivability (could assign hits to runts, right?), as well as damage output.
Gorkanaut sounds better.
Missing kannons/lobbas/zzap is... weird. They've been a staple of the army since 3rd.
I shouldn't expect everything to be winners - but this is dampening my hype a tiny bit. On the other hand, GW seems to have learned Ork shooting requires volume to do anything, so that's a plus.
Gorkanaught just gets 18 shots now with the big gun.
I don't know... for what it looks like 18 shots still seems super low, especially for BS 5+. Most imperial stuff has more than that! Seriously, you'd be hitting like 4 D1 shots! Basically a glorified heavy bolter.
It's exactly the same firepower of a maxed out Dakkajet (without the strafing run). I'm very happy with this. With the rumored teleportation strat this sounds great.
Gorkanaught just gets 18 shots now with the big gun.
I don't know... for what it looks like 18 shots still seems super low, especially for BS 5+. Most imperial stuff has more than that! Seriously, you'd be hitting like 4 D1 shots! Basically a glorified heavy bolter.
It's exactly the same firepower of a maxed out Dakkajet (without the strafing run). I'm very happy with this. With the rumored teleportation strat this sounds great.
Yeah, but where's the Punisher Cannon weapon for Orks?
20/40 shots at BS4+ compared to our 18 at BS5+; sure, we have DDD, but still.
That said, the 'naut is a close combat monster, so it's shooting is... supplemental, at best.
By my math the Stompa's Dethkannon will average about 9.5 wounds to most tanks (that is factoring in DDD). That falls far short of fixing the Stompa by itself, but it is certainly an improvement.
Really interested to see if they changed Dreds and Kans. And Trukks. And... hell, everything! Losing Kannons is sad, such a cheap toy. Of course, it's all about the points. If a Stompa is still 900 plus you'll still never see them. Probably another week before the full codex leaks.
Well, the hard boys strategems definitely throws boys back in. It's expensive, in terms of CP, but it definitely could make a boy unit better able to get stuck in when combined with tactics and a painboy.
Gorkanaught just gets 18 shots now with the big gun.
I don't know... for what it looks like 18 shots still seems super low, especially for BS 5+. Most imperial stuff has more than that! Seriously, you'd be hitting like 4 D1 shots! Basically a glorified heavy bolter.
I bet they're for different "kulturs". (so probably not)
I could see Bad Moons getting a stratagem to reflect having better armor, but I hope this stratagem isn't it for two reasons:
1. There are 'Ardboyz in every clan*
2. It sucks
*Then again every clan used to be able to take Skarboyz, but Goffs usually had more so it doesn't bother me that much
JimOnMars wrote: 'Ard boyz units can only mob up with other 'Ard boyz units....when it is mathematically impossible for there to be more than 1 'Ard boyz unit. Uh, ok.
Why not just say 'Ard boyz cannot use the mob up rule?
Because it's possible that you can use it multiple times before the game starts?
There is now a weapon called a boomstick. This makes me really happy. LISTEN UP YA GITZ! DIS. IZ. MAH. BOOMSTICK!!
Spoiler:
I already have a warboss that has a sort of Ashley Williams power klaw thing going on for him, with a chainsaw sticking out of his arm. Maybe I can give him a boomstick.
Snazzguns being heavy at 24" range isn't great. If you move you will be hitting on 6s.
No artillery makes me sad. What am I going do with my Zzap gun conversions now?
Skarboyz and 'ardboyz being locked to strategems suuuucks. 'ard boyz are only 5+ saves too. Remember how they were 4+ saves and troop choices in 4th ed? That was awesome. I liked that.
So in summary, the new HQ is great, every else ranges from "meh" to "zog off".
JimOnMars wrote: 'Ard boyz units can only mob up with other 'Ard boyz units....when it is mathematically impossible for there to be more than 1 'Ard boyz unit. Uh, ok.
Why not just say 'Ard boyz cannot use the mob up rule?
You can use before combat stratagems as many times you want.
JimOnMars wrote: 'Ard boyz units can only mob up with other 'Ard boyz units....when it is mathematically impossible for there to be more than 1 'Ard boyz unit. Uh, ok.
Why not just say 'Ard boyz cannot use the mob up rule?
Why is it impossible for there to be multiple ard boyz and/or skarboyz? Nothing about the rule(s) as-rumoured prevents it…
JimOnMars wrote: 'Ard boyz units can only mob up with other 'Ard boyz units....when it is mathematically impossible for there to be more than 1 'Ard boyz unit. Uh, ok.
Why not just say 'Ard boyz cannot use the mob up rule?
Why is it impossible for there to be multiple ard boyz and/or skarboyz? Nothing about the rule(s) as-rumoured prevents it…
Can you use a stratagem multiple times before the game starts? I think you can, but I'm not sure.
Obviously points cost is a big factor with regards to how much better Flash Gitz are, but with their current weapon upgrade, don't they step on the toes of Lootas currently? They have better AP, same damage, with only one less strength and of course half the range. But with a 4+ save and guaranteed 3 shots and BS4+, they seem like they outdo Lootas in their own role tbh. I hope they've done something to make Lootas worth taking in their own right.
JimOnMars wrote: 'Ard boyz units can only mob up with other 'Ard boyz units....when it is mathematically impossible for there to be more than 1 'Ard boyz unit. Uh, ok.
Why not just say 'Ard boyz cannot use the mob up rule?
You can use before combat stratagems as many times you want.
Cool, forgot about that because I've never had a chance to use them.
4CP for 60 4+ Blood Axes (at 7 points each) is pretty good...I rarely use all of my CP. All we need now is a 5+++ painboy and these boyz are just shy of marines.
Holy feth that trike is gross. You guys haven't missed the part that said once a game he can auto advance 6" on top of his base 14" move right? He can move 20" and still assault, if evil suns hes going 22" +2d6... I'd easily run with a trio of these and smash into the enemy lines ASAP. It is starting to seem as though Orks might be scary fast.
A truck moving 14+d6 then assaulting 2d6 more is also gross, again as an evil sun thats 26" average threat range. Also, if you charge the enemy and he successfully blows the truck up with overwatch, just hop the boys out 3" in front of the truck and assault with them.
Red Corsair wrote: Holy feth that trike is gross. You guys haven't missed the part that said once a game he can auto advance 6" on top of his base 14" move right? He can move 20" and still assault, if evil suns hes going 22" +2d6... I'd easily run with a trio of these and smash into the enemy lines ASAP. It is starting to seem as though Orks might be scary fast.
A truck moving 14+d6 then assaulting 2d6 more is also gross, again as an evil sun thats 26" average threat range. Also, if you charge the enemy and he successfully blows the truck up with overwatch, just hop the boys out 3" in front of the truck and assault with them.
That biker boss is a character--meaning he can't be targeted at all on turn 1, provided he's 1/2 inch back from something else. There is almost no way to counter that easy 30 inches of charge on turn 1.
Gorkanaught just gets 18 shots now with the big gun.
I don't know... for what it looks like 18 shots still seems super low, especially for BS 5+. Most imperial stuff has more than that! Seriously, you'd be hitting like 4 D1 shots! Basically a glorified heavy bolter.
It's exactly the same firepower of a maxed out Dakkajet (without the strafing run). I'm very happy with this. With the rumored teleportation strat this sounds great.
Yeah, but where's the Punisher Cannon weapon for Orks?
20/40 shots at BS4+ compared to our 18 at BS5+; sure, we have DDD, but still.
That said, the 'naut is a close combat monster, so it's shooting is... supplemental, at best.
Nobody but Imperial Guard gets the privilege of having a heavy machine-gun weapon that actually fires enough dice to feel like a proper machinegun.
beerbeard wrote: Really interested to see if they changed Dreds and Kans. And Trukks. And... hell, everything! Losing Kannons is sad, such a cheap toy. Of course, it's all about the points. If a Stompa is still 900 plus you'll still never see them. Probably another week before the full codex leaks.
Loosing Kannons (and Lobbas and Zapps) sucks big time,
period.
Why not just let them be the base you can upgrade from as before?
Or just use the old models with the new models rules since now there is no overlap. Not seeing why it is such a let down. Those 3rd edition guns were a bland rework from the original orky arty, they simply returned to form.
Again I personally, and I bet most other gamers would not bat an eye at a player using zap, kanon and lobba models as smasha, tracta, mega blasta and bubble chukkas.
Red Corsair wrote: Or just use the old models with the new models rules since now there is no overlap. Not seeing why it is such a let down. Those 3rd edition guns were a bland rework from the original orky arty, they simply returned to form.
Again I personally, and I bet most other gamers would not bat an eye at a player using zap, kanon and lobba models as smasha, tracta, mega blasta and bubble chukkas.
I'm not going to use mine as Mek Gunz because they are so much smaller and (other than the zzap gun) don't look right as Mek Gunz IMO. Thankfully there's the Index so those of us with big collections of Big Gunz can keep using them in casual/narrative games. (Funny thing is that I'm actually going to use my really old metal Mek Gunz as Zzap Gunz because of the size difference.)
I like Big Gunz more than Mek Gunz (although I also like Mek Gunz). Some call them bland, but I think they're more like the meat and potatoes to the Mek Gunz' chili powder. Chili powder is tasty sprinkled on things, but makes for a poor meal. Another comparison would be big shootas and kustom mega blastas. It's fun to have a KMB here and there but I prefer more good ol' big shootas.
Another thing I'd like to point out is that Big Gunz have been units for more years total than Mek Gunz. While Smasha Hunz, Traktor Kannons, etc. came out years before the Big Gunz did they we're discontinued back in the 90s. Big Gunz have been in our books for about twenty years. I think it's understandable that a lot of people would have a strong attachment to them.
I hope this doesn't sound angry or ranty, it wasn't meant to. They're one of my favorite units, so I get a little overly-sensitive when people are dismissive of them. Them being relegated to the Index isn't that big of a deal and I made my peace with it months ago.
Ok idea... What if you took the deffkilla wartrike and some forgeworld meka dreads with the mega charga ability? With evil suns rules, the meka dread goes 14" from the mega charga double move, advances d6 +1 and can still charge with 2d6+1 thanks to the wartrike, which can easily keep up. Getting first turn charges with the wartrike and some huge meka dreads sounds crazy
Red Corsair wrote: Holy feth that trike is gross. You guys haven't missed the part that said once a game he can auto advance 6" on top of his base 14" move right? He can move 20" and still assault, if evil suns hes going 22" +2d6... I'd easily run with a trio of these and smash into the enemy lines ASAP. It is starting to seem as though Orks might be scary fast.
A truck moving 14+d6 then assaulting 2d6 more is also gross, again as an evil sun thats 26" average threat range. Also, if you charge the enemy and he successfully blows the truck up with overwatch, just hop the boys out 3" in front of the truck and assault with them.
He’s basically zhardsnark except zhardsnark was cheaper and had a better powerklaw.
Zhardsnark is still available. So now you can take him and three of these. Plus he doesn't give waaagh to bikes or vehicles just infantry which is worse for his role. You also weren't taking Zsnark in non Evil sunz. It's definitely a win. Plus the new ride has better guns. The reroll to wound makes the trikes claw very good, same with the consistent 2 damage.
Those flash gits look pretty mean. Depending on points, they might finally be awesome passengers for battlewagons. Even on 5+ they just as good as DG blight launchers and blight launchers rock.
You can now drive them to the middle of the board turn one, and then have them pump out 17-18 hits per turn starting turn 2. S6 AP-2 also makes them awesome at mowing down guardsmen that are trying to screen more valuable targets, even if they are in cover and flash gits are moving, they will wipe out one unit of 10 guardsmen on average - assuming that's still an issue after CA.
The skarboyz strat seems like a good "get" for Goff players. Super worth it IMO.
That 'ard boys strat though, ooof.. I'm not seeing the value there to be honest but I guess if you're blood axes and have the unit next to a vehicle that blows up then you can do the "Looted" stratagem and it'll add up to something real nice. Too many variables for that to work most likely though.
The Deffkilla wartrike. I'm a little bit disappointed he's only base S5. Another point of strength would have mde him hit with S8 attacks because of his weapon in CC, which would help immensly. Speaking of his weapon, surely there's a stratagem tied to the shooting profile on the Snagga Klaw? Because otherwise it's so underwhelming that you have to wonder why it's even there.. The twin boomsticks his trike is armed with are pretty sweet though. I'm not even sure what the Killa Jet is (like on the model), am I missing something really obvious?
I'm curious if that "mob up" that the Skarboy and 'Ard Boy stratagem mention means there some new rule to join multiple squads of boys together? Seems like a weird way to say the Mob Rule wouldn't work with other friendly units at least.
PiñaColada wrote: I'm not even sure what the Killa Jet is (like on the model), am I missing something really obvious?
Maybe it's those two red squig-shaped things we thought were air intakes?
Redemption wrote: I'm curious if that "mob up" that the Skarboy and 'Ard Boy stratagem mention means there some new rule to join multiple squads of boys together? Seems like a weird way to say the Mob Rule wouldn't work with other friendly units at least.
PiñaColada wrote: I'm not even sure what the Killa Jet is (like on the model), am I missing something really obvious?
Maybe it's those two red squig-shaped things we thought were air intakes?
Spoiler:
I mean yeah, it pretty much has to be, hasn't it? Those are the only front facing things I can see on the model that could possible house a skorcha/twin meltas
Redemption wrote: I'm curious if that "mob up" that the Skarboy and 'Ard Boy stratagem mention means there some new rule to join multiple squads of boys together? Seems like a weird way to say the Mob Rule wouldn't work with other friendly units at least.
PiñaColada wrote: I'm not even sure what the Killa Jet is (like on the model), am I missing something really obvious?
Maybe it's those two red squig-shaped things we thought were air intakes?
Spoiler:
I mean yeah, it pretty much has to be, hasn't it? Those are the only front facing things I can see on the model that could possible house a skorcha/twin meltas
I think it might be the rear of the Trike, the jet engine bit here (apologies for my poor paint skills);
with what we have previewed currently and asuming some price adjaustment to all our walkers to make them more viable then i would run this for a dreddmob.
everything is evilsunz for the bonuses to speed.
deffkilla trike for the advance and charge,
a full squad of killakans.
3-6 defdredds.
a barebones bigmek with kff (if no pts change the i would go for the index bikemek for the kff).
and then a morkanaut to hang back out of line of sight to be telyported at the enemy.
then have a batalion of deathskulls.
bigmek warlord with sag for sniping.
your pick for the 2nd HQ then nothing but grots of 10s for cp battery.
of course this all assumes good pts decreases, but ill definitely give it a try when the codex comes out.
JimOnMars wrote: Wartrike will also allow plenty of turn-1 assaults for trukks! Bye Bye gunlines!
a) trukk isn't much of a threat. Especially as good gunlines either have chaff you have to charge or aren't that worried as they can fall back and shoot back anyway.
b) 14"+d6+2d6=24" threat range. Even with reroll adding bit...For gunline that's fairly easy to avoid. You need threat range of at least 28" to reliably T1 charge gunlines. And gunline can always deploy bit further if they really feel the need.
There isn't take much room and pushing them back concedes board control. They also still get a reroll on the charge do they not?
You'd have to push that stuff WAY back to be secure.
Reroll doesn't add 4" to range. 18" after advance. 9" to charge 27" away. 29" is easy peasy and that's then less than 50% to succeed even with reroll. and that's if you deploy straight front and he doesn't have simply chaff to soak up your charge first. Of course these days chaff exists by bucketload so what will happen is your trukk charges chaff, kills with luck 1 model, then trukk and content gets blown apart.
You don't want to charge with trukk. You want to charge with contents. Or with something beefier than trukk. At least with battlewagon with death rolla. Or 12 warbikes. Also nice for dreadnoughts, killa kans, gorkanauts and stompas if those come useful. But trukk? You are just sacrificing trukk and the contents to prevent CHAFF from shooting 1 turn. whee.
JimOnMars wrote: Wartrike will also allow plenty of turn-1 assaults for trukks! Bye Bye gunlines!
a) trukk isn't much of a threat. Especially as good gunlines either have chaff you have to charge or aren't that worried as they can fall back and shoot back anyway.
b) 14"+d6+2d6=24" threat range. Even with reroll adding bit...For gunline that's fairly easy to avoid. You need threat range of at least 28" to reliably T1 charge gunlines. And gunline can always deploy bit further if they really feel the need.
There isn't take much room and pushing them back concedes board control. They also still get a reroll on the charge do they not?
You'd have to push that stuff WAY back to be secure.
Well, I was thinking 4 Trukks of 48 boyz and nobz plus a dajumping blob of 40 more. Plus not every gunline can fallback and shoot with every unit. Maybe with the (presumed) nerfs to IG they won't be taken in such quantities anymore, leaving only the hapless Tau, which can still erase a lot but it would be hard pressed to get through 40 t6 and 88 t4 points in one go.
Gunlines that can't fall back and shoot have instead plenty of chaff so your trukks will get into chaff, kill model or two(trukks arent' exactly h2h monsters...) and then he falls chaff back and blows trukks out, your boyz disembark losing ~8 of them and then gets plastered by fire.
Charging in with trukks loaded up with boyz is something people don't do because it sucks. You want to charge with contents. Which just ain't possible on T1. Even with this
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Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: Gorkanaut should be averaging about 6 hits with DDD. That's far from a game-changing weapon but still significantly more than a heavy bolter.
'Ardboyz stratagem seems pretty bad, while the Skarboyz stratagem seems pretty good.
Snazzguns being heavy at 24" range isn't great. If you move you will be hitting on 6s.
aren't they bs4+ ?
Yep, and their weapons got a lot more punch than they used to have.
I can see the 24" range and heavy still being a problem, depending on points, especially if Ammor Runts are going to be a lot more limited.
Hard to tell without the codex though. I'm super excited!
Oh, are they still BS4+ now? Ok, that makes them a bit better. Might have to remodel my flash gitz conversions though, as the guns they have aren't heavy looking enough.
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Grimskul wrote: Obviously points cost is a big factor with regards to how much better Flash Gitz are, but with their current weapon upgrade, don't they step on the toes of Lootas currently? They have better AP, same damage, with only one less strength and of course half the range. But with a 4+ save and guaranteed 3 shots and BS4+, they seem like they outdo Lootas in their own role tbh. I hope they've done something to make Lootas worth taking in their own right.
Yodhrin wrote: Now, are my eyes deceiving me, or do the krew on the new vehicles look a bit heftier than normal Boys, a bit closer to Nob size?
I imagine we'll see scale creep on all new Ork models to try and make them look less short next to Primaris marines. At least you can argue that the natural variation between Orks should generally favour those with the best toys like buggies.
Yodhrin wrote: Now, are my eyes deceiving me, or do the krew on the new vehicles look a bit heftier than normal Boys, a bit closer to Nob size?
Primarorks.
But the arms on the trike boss seem shorter than the biker nobz arm. Maybe even the Battlewagon gunner arms.
No more primate Orks :/
I want a trike boss with a two handed sword-choppa, blue warpaint and a belted plaid, yelling of Waaaaghs and leading a charge of bikers and boar bikers. But the biker design is really cool, too. Decisions, decisions.
The Deffkilla wartrike. I'm a little bit disappointed he's only base S5. Another point of strength would have mde him hit with S8 attacks because of his weapon in CC, which would help immensly.
you're so right with this... S8 would have made him so much better. I feel that S7 is a strange choice as it is as good as S5 vs most targets(3+ to wound) and still needs the 5+to wound a vehicle.
I hope this S+2 is wrong and we will be welcomed with a SX2 in the codex but i don't think that's going to happen.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: By my math the Stompa's Dethkannon will average about 9.5 wounds to most tanks (that is factoring in DDD). That falls far short of fixing the Stompa by itself, but it is certainly an improvement.
Well, that's actually more than an IK Thermal Cannon will do on average IIRC. Having said that, da Stompa will probably have to come down to ~650 points including gear to be worth taking.
The Deffkilla wartrike. I'm a little bit disappointed he's only base S5. Another point of strength would have mde him hit with S8 attacks because of his weapon in CC, which would help immensly.
you're so right with this... S8 would have made him so much better. I feel that S7 is a strange choice as it is as good as S5 vs most targets(3+ to wound) and still needs the 5+to wound a vehicle.
I hope this S+2 is wrong and we will be welcomed with a SX2 in the codex but i don't think that's going to happen.
Doesn't it reroll wound rolls though? Would basically be a bigger and badder Lightning Claw then. Besides, with 14" movement, 6" advance once per match and 3d6 charge from Ramming Speed you're looking at a reliable T1 charge (assuming Ramming Speed's leak is correct).
The Deffkilla wartrike. I'm a little bit disappointed he's only base S5. Another point of strength would have mde him hit with S8 attacks because of his weapon in CC, which would help immensly.
you're so right with this... S8 would have made him so much better. I feel that S7 is a strange choice as it is as good as S5 vs most targets(3+ to wound) and still needs the 5+to wound a vehicle.
I hope this S+2 is wrong and we will be welcomed with a SX2 in the codex but i don't think that's going to happen.
Doesn't it reroll wound rolls though? Would basically be a bigger and badder Lightning Claw then. Besides, with 14" movement, 6" advance once per match and 3d6 charge from Ramming Speed you're looking at a reliable T1 charge (assuming Ramming Speed's leak is correct).
Hopefully we'll get a relic snagga klaw, I wrote in the speculations thread about it. But if the relic snagga had S+3 AP-3 Dd3 Reroll wounds (so 1 point better S & AP) it'd be a really good upgrade. The reroll wounds does take some sting away from being "only" S7 but orks aren't great against T8 units so the deffkilla hitting at S8 rerolling would be great
The Deffkilla wartrike. I'm a little bit disappointed he's only base S5. Another point of strength would have mde him hit with S8 attacks because of his weapon in CC, which would help immensly.
you're so right with this... S8 would have made him so much better. I feel that S7 is a strange choice as it is as good as S5 vs most targets(3+ to wound) and still needs the 5+to wound a vehicle.
I hope this S+2 is wrong and we will be welcomed with a SX2 in the codex but i don't think that's going to happen.
true. and the lesser T vehicles are not that big of a problem for orks. cracking the T8 soaks to much attacks without tankbustas/other S8 tools IMO.
Speaking about tankbustas, i wonder if they got any cheaper or better in the codex, as these guys are my primary AT source. Not that they're bad, but i find them expensive pointwise.
wallygator wrote: true. and the lesser T vehicles are not that big of a problem for orks. cracking the T8 soaks to much attacks without tankbustas/other S8 tools IMO.
Speaking about tankbustas, i wonder if they got any cheaper or better in the codex, as these guys are my primary AT source. Not that they're bad, but i find them expensive pointwise.
I'm hoping for a slight points decrease in the form of a Rokkit Launcha points decrease.
Tankbustas are good, but it feels like every other platform you can shove a rokkit launcha onto pays for that one unit's ability to reroll hits.
The Deffkilla wartrike. I'm a little bit disappointed he's only base S5. Another point of strength would have mde him hit with S8 attacks because of his weapon in CC, which would help immensly.
you're so right with this... S8 would have made him so much better. I feel that S7 is a strange choice as it is as good as S5 vs most targets(3+ to wound) and still needs the 5+to wound a vehicle.
I hope this S+2 is wrong and we will be welcomed with a SX2 in the codex but i don't think that's going to happen.
Not every vehicle is T8 though.
No, obviously not but T8 is something we struggle with in my experience. And let's not pretend S8 with a reroll would be undesirable against T7 (or T4 for that matter)
And if such a relic does exist in the codex then the warlord trait that gives +1attack and +1strength is going to be real nice to combo it up with
Oh sure it would be nice but then again that would make that weapon basically superior power klaw. I think it's pretty intentional it's S7 for total. For big stuff you get power klaw. Though albeit orks don't have any good vehicle busting h2h anyway. Even with S8 this would be bad vehicle hunter.
Yodhrin wrote: Now, are my eyes deceiving me, or do the krew on the new vehicles look a bit heftier than normal Boys, a bit closer to Nob size?
I imagine we'll see scale creep on all new Ork models to try and make them look less short next to Primaris marines. At least you can argue that the natural variation between Orks should generally favour those with the best toys like buggies.
Eh, for me it's actually a good thing, I collect small-scale games these days and have been using Nobs as the basis for my Boys for a while now(regular Boys look a tad daft next to truescale Marines). Using these in GorkaMorka will be an expensive prospect though, since I convert up on-foot versions of all vehicle crew using the same components o_0
Nuffin' but Buggies, Trukks, Fightas, Wagons, Bikes. May not be much cop on the field, but would sure be fun, and look impressive!
I mean, battlewagons with deffrollas is already one of the best non-boyz units in the codex for us, and now they advance and charge? sounds pretty hot to me. I'm planning on having as much of my army crammed into battlewagons as humanly possible and then fill the rest with bikes and buggies.
Latro_ wrote: mass killsaws in hth is how you get the crump on vehicles
Problem is no good delivery method for those. Meganobz too slow, too expensive, too soft, struggle to hit and have very few attacks. Characters can't even have and they are expensive per attack and generally don't have much attacks to begin with. Long gone are days where warlord was credible threat to vehicle. Dd3 weapons need tons of attacks to really make a threat.
Nuffin' but Buggies, Trukks, Fightas, Wagons, Bikes. May not be much cop on the field, but would sure be fun, and look impressive!
I mean, battlewagons with deffrollas is already one of the best non-boyz units in the codex for us, and now they advance and charge? sounds pretty hot to me. I'm planning on having as much of my army crammed into battlewagons as humanly possible and then fill the rest with bikes and buggies.
And that's given me an idea to create passenger inserts for the Battlewagons. Just measure out the interior of the passenger deck, get some thin plasticard type stuff, and pack that shape with as many Boyz as you can. Lift in an out as necessary. Make them look really squidged in. Maybe take a page from the Dark Eldar vehicles, have some Boyz converted up to be hanging off?
Latro_ wrote: simple painboy and big mek on bikes are 7 attacks. agree though its not a great pointswise
And that results in 6 wounds vs leman russ if you get to combat...201 pts, doesn't even kill it and barely degrades leman russ IF they can make combat which they might on turn 3-4 once enough chaff has been cleared...
Back to the point "not worried". And leman russ is among softest T8 targets there is for kill saws...
Yeah, depending on my army setup and matchup I'd consider throwing it on a unit of 30 da jump boyz or 20 boyz in a battlewagon just to increase their ability to tie things up and be obnoxious. Any situation where I know I'm getting my boyz into melee and I have a big enough unit to justify it.
If Da Jump stays the same as its current incarnation, it's going to be a heck of a tool in the Evil Sunz arsenal - re-rollable 8 on 2d6 is way more reliable than re-rollable 9.
I am betting the grappling hook on the trike boss is attached to a unique stratagem that will let him add a bonus to charging the target or drag them to him or something Probably use it if you get a hit for a CP or something, could even do mortal wounds. Who knows, but seems like the perfect fit for a strat.
I believe someone mentioned the trike had a stratagem for the grappling hook to cause mortal wounds when falling back from melee, dragging some helpless mook behind the trike I imagine.
Red Corsair wrote: I am betting the grappling hook on the trike boss is attached to a unique stratagem that will let him add a bonus to charging the target or drag them to him or something Probably use it if you get a hit for a CP or something, could even do mortal wounds. Who knows, but seems like the perfect fit for a strat.
I bet you a shiny nickel that a strat like this exists, and it's
"spend CP.
Now, IF YOU HIT with the grapplin' klaw, get a benefit!"
if they actually give us stratagems worth using, yes that bugs me. CP is for the most part pointless atm because we can only reroll 1 die per phase and 2cp to fight next is situational as gak. I often went games w/o even using my CPlol.
Probably going to be burning a lot of CP on the Ramming Speed strat lol...
They say the list comes up to about 2000 points, PL so that checks out. Maybe there's a way to extrapolate the worth of some of the units by it still though?
A Trukk is 3PL instead of 5 from the index, that's a nice start
Nobz 7PL instead of 11
Nob with banner is the same
Warbikers are 4PL instead of 5
The Morkanaut is 15PL down from 18
Big Mek down to 4PL from 5
Boyz are 4PL down from 5 (don't know what's up with this)
The Kustom Boosta-blasta, Boomdakka Snazzwagon, Megatrakka Scrapjet are 5PL
The Shokkjump Dragsta & Deffkilla Wartrike are 6 PL The Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy is 7PL (WHAT the hell GW?)
They say the list comes up to about 2000 points, PL so that checks out. Maybe there's a way to extrapolate the worth of some of the units by it still though?
A Trukk is 3PL instead of 5 from the index, that's a nice start
They say the list comes up to about 2000 points, PL so that checks out. Maybe there's a way to extrapolate the worth of some of the units by it still though?
A Trukk is 3PL instead of 5 from the index, that's a nice start
Nobz 7PL instead of 11
Warbikers are 4PL instead of 5
The Kustom Boosta-blasta, Boomdakka Snazzwagon, Megatrakka Scrapjet are 5PL
The Shokkjump Dragsta & Deffkilla Wartrike are 6 PL The Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy is 7PL (WHAT the hell GW?)
Hopefully this means Nobz got a significant points decrease and I can run my 10 man squad that's been gathering dust. Same for the warbikes but only going down 1PL might not be enough.
They say the list comes up to about 2000 points, PL so that checks out. Maybe there's a way to extrapolate the worth of some of the units by it still though?
A Trukk is 3PL instead of 5 from the index, that's a nice start
Nobz 7PL instead of 11
Warbikers are 4PL instead of 5
The Kustom Boosta-blasta, Boomdakka Snazzwagon, Megatrakka Scrapjet are 5PL
The Shokkjump Dragsta & Deffkilla Wartrike are 6 PL The Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy is 7PL (WHAT the hell GW?)
Hopefully this means Nobz got a significant points decrease and I can run my 10 man squad that's been gathering dust. Same for the warbikes but only going down 1PL might not be enough.
I mean, not that I dare hope the jump is this big, but if the warbikes goes from 81points (basically exactly 4PL) to 60 points I'd be really happy. 60 points would translate to 3PL, although this could also mean 70-ish points, given how big the intervals are
Edit: I misread my own post haha. Disregard this whole statement
Stormboyz i'd say:
big unit and the one most likely to get bodies into CTC where a better save is more useful, vs shooting you should already be using KFF and pain boyz
TedNugent wrote: I think you guys dissing the trike klaw are missing the whole fact that -1 to hit was not mentioned.
That means hitting on 2's. Then reroll to wound at strength 7 with 5 attacks.
I don't get the complaints either. Mathmatically the trike claw is better then a PK in everything but AP. You hit on 2's rather then 3's off the bat but also S7 rerolling to wound is better against everything except t8+ at which point it does .555 wounds instead of .666 wounds per hit, key word meaning per hit where the trike claw will have more so even then it comes out ahead still. So yea it is better against everything. It also does a steady 2 damage rather then d3 which is also much better. D3 often gets hosed when you min damage a target like primaris then max damage the following roll resulting in 1 dead guy where the trike claw would just kill two.
Latro_ wrote: Stormboyz i'd say:
big unit and the one most likely to get bodies into CTC where a better save is more useful, vs shooting you should already be using KFF and pain boyz
Wow hadn't even considered it in Storm boyz....
If I could get ahold of 30 rokkit packs (3rd party or scratch built) that could be waaaaaghsome! I'm sure there's a 3rs party bits site that has rockets or missiles that would fit the bill.
TedNugent wrote: I think you guys dissing the trike klaw are missing the whole fact that -1 to hit was not mentioned.
That means hitting on 2's. Then reroll to wound at strength 7 with 5 attacks.
I don't get the complaints either. Mathmatically the trike claw is better then a PK in everything but AP. You hit on 2's rather then 3's off the bat but also S7 rerolling to wound is better against everything except t8+ at which point it does .555 wounds instead of .666 wounds per hit, key word meaning per hit where the trike claw will have more so even then it comes out ahead still. So yea it is better against everything. It also does a steady 2 damage rather then d3 which is also much better. D3 often gets hosed when you min damage a target like primaris then max damage the following roll resulting in 1 dead guy where the trike claw would just kill two.
Well for me at least, I had hoped we'd get something that was better than a current power klaw warboss against T8, with the prevalence of knights and our current predicament against them. I think the weapon is extremely solid, but I had hoped for a bit more oomph against T8. But with the rumoured warlord traits and possible relics that might just sort itself out
Yodhrin wrote: Now, are my eyes deceiving me, or do the krew on the new vehicles look a bit heftier than normal Boys, a bit closer to Nob size?
I imagine we'll see scale creep on all new Ork models to try and make them look less short next to Primaris marines. At least you can argue that the natural variation between Orks should generally favour those with the best toys like buggies.
Eh, for me it's actually a good thing, I collect small-scale games these days and have been using Nobs as the basis for my Boys for a while now(regular Boys look a tad daft next to truescale Marines). Using these in GorkaMorka will be an expensive prospect though, since I convert up on-foot versions of all vehicle crew using the same components o_0
For me is the opposite, I like the goofyness of boyz. For me the peak of boyz are bikers, stormboyz and loota/burnas. I love how the nobz feel really different, not only in size. Said this, the new orks don;t look bad, I just prefer goofier/smaller ones. I hate the scale creep. But I am painting few models for a 3rd party now so whatever. The priority is to ork players, I hope they enjoy the new models.
Vineheart01 wrote: 2cp to make a boyz unit 5+ save...really?
'Ard Boyz has always been a 4+....wtf....waste of cp...
We'll see how it plays out. 210 points + 2 CP for 30 boyz at 5+, compared to (7th ed) 300 points for 30 boyz at 4+.
The last game I played had 20CP, and I never got below 8 during the game (I forgot a few chances to reroll, but still.)
The question I have now is it worth 6CP to have 90 of them, or even 8 to get 120. A full brigade of 180 4+ blood axes, backed up by painboyz, would be an interesting test. Not sure the opponent would like it so much.
So, Warhammer community built a sample speed freeks army by power level, and big meks, boyz, warbikers, nobz, morkanauts, and trukks are all getting cheaper. Nob with waaagh banner stayed the same. Promising that we're getting substantial points cuts.
TedNugent wrote: I think you guys dissing the trike klaw are missing the whole fact that -1 to hit was not mentioned.
That means hitting on 2's. Then reroll to wound at strength 7 with 5 attacks.
I don't get the complaints either. Mathmatically the trike claw is better then a PK in everything but AP. You hit on 2's rather then 3's off the bat but also S7 rerolling to wound is better against everything except t8+ at which point it does .555 wounds instead of .666 wounds per hit, key word meaning per hit where the trike claw will have more so even then it comes out ahead still. So yea it is better against everything. It also does a steady 2 damage rather then d3 which is also much better. D3 often gets hosed when you min damage a target like primaris then max damage the following roll resulting in 1 dead guy where the trike claw would just kill two.
Well for me at least, I had hoped we'd get something that was better than a current power klaw warboss against T8, with the prevalence of knights and our current predicament against them. I think the weapon is extremely solid, but I had hoped for a bit more oomph against T8. But with the rumoured warlord traits and possible relics that might just sort itself out
He is better then a PK warboss though, he is better against everything but T8 where they are level due to AP being higher on the PK but the trike claw hitting more often to compensate. So overall he is doing more against more targets. Also he has twin melta guns, something the old biker boss never dreamed of. Answer to IK is going to be mechguns, tank bustas, the formula one buggy and Stompas.
@PinaColada, thanks for doing the comparison, take an exalt.
The trike is worth it just for the speed waaagh! alone. Even a battlewagon has a decent chance to make a first turn with the ramming stratagem, and our dreadmob players finally got the HQ the deserved - nauts, deff dreads and kanz will have no problems getting into combat turn 2.
I hope we have a decent answer to T8 vehicles though, none of the buggies can do that.
It's the gearcheck any list must pass to be able to compete in tournaments due to imperial knights and tank columns, and being able to crack heavy armored targets has always been a major weakness for orks.
tneva82 wrote: Don't think orks are supposed to tower over space marines though...
Yeah, ork boyz are supposed to be about the same height as a regular human when they're all stooped over (which is proper orky posture) so a Space Marine should be about as tall as a Nob (although not as bulky).
I hope they use the Primaris reset to put an end to scale creep.
If the drop in power is reflected by an equivalent drop in points, the only way I can see Nob units not being great (and the rumours say they are rubbish) is if they lost a lot of options. I was actually surprised that we have been allowed to give them both a melee upgrade and a shooty one so far, since the models only allow one or the other. I wouldn't count on being able to do that with the codex.
Also, I'm very curious about what is going to be allowed on biker nobz and boss nobz in boyz units. I've found that a kombi-skorcha can be quite helpful for a unit of choppa boyz and have been considering building some kombi-skorcha bikes too. I suspect that will not be allowed in the codex though.
Perfect Organism wrote: If the drop in power is reflected by an equivalent drop in points, the only way I can see Nob units not being great (and the rumours say they are rubbish) is if they lost a lot of options. I was actually surprised that we have been allowed to give them both a melee upgrade and a shooty one so far, since the models only allow one or the other. I wouldn't count on being able to do that with the codex.
Also, I'm very curious about what is going to be allowed on biker nobz and boss nobz in boyz units. I've found that a kombi-skorcha can be quite helpful for a unit of choppa boyz and have been considering building some kombi-skorcha bikes too. I suspect that will not be allowed in the codex though.
I think they fixed the ammo runt exploit, so the guys reading it think they suck now. It was obviously flawed and not in line with this edition to have tons of super cheapo ablaitive wounds hiding in an elite unit ready to die in vehicle explosions or soak quality incoming attacks. So yea, for folks who were used to having multiple runts per guy it is worse, but the nobs themselves may not have changed.
Vineheart01 wrote: if they actually give us stratagems worth using, yes that bugs me.
CP is for the most part pointless atm because we can only reroll 1 die per phase and 2cp to fight next is situational as gak. I often went games w/o even using my CPlol.
Probably going to be burning a lot of CP on the Ramming Speed strat lol...
Do you play an army without a Codex? Because I use CP with my T'au like a narcotic.
Vineheart01 wrote: 2cp to make a boyz unit 5+ save...really?
'Ard Boyz has always been a 4+....wtf....waste of cp...
We'll see how it plays out. 210 points + 2 CP for 30 boyz at 5+, compared to (7th ed) 300 points for 30 boyz at 4+.
The last game I played had 20CP, and I never got below 8 during the game (I forgot a few chances to reroll, but still.)
The question I have now is it worth 6CP to have 90 of them, or even 8 to get 120. A full brigade of 180 4+ blood axes, backed up by painboyz, would be an interesting test. Not sure the opponent would like it so much.
what the gak? 20cp? how on earth did you do that with a decent list?
Or was it just multiple battalions with boyz/warboss/painboyz? Im not a fan of green tide so i tend to not spam boyz.
Jidmah wrote: @PinaColada, thanks for doing the comparison, take an exalt.
The trike is worth it just for the speed waaagh! alone. Even a battlewagon has a decent chance to make a first turn with the ramming stratagem, and our dreadmob players finally got the HQ the deserved - nauts, deff dreads and kanz will have no problems getting into combat turn 2.
I hope we have a decent answer to T8 vehicles though, none of the buggies can do that.
It's the gearcheck any list must pass to be able to compete in tournaments due to imperial knights and tank columns, and being able to crack heavy armored targets has always been a major weakness for orks.
How do you figure every other book deals with massed T8? Specifically we are talking knights as russes are MUCH easier to counter. There is a reason why Knights are stomping everything and need to be nerfed in CA. There isn't a single army that comes to mind besides obviously knights themselves that can hard counter knights without tailoring to an absurd level.
Aside form IK I am not seeing all the massed t8 threats out there either.
Vineheart01 wrote: 2cp to make a boyz unit 5+ save...really?
'Ard Boyz has always been a 4+....wtf....waste of cp...
We'll see how it plays out. 210 points + 2 CP for 30 boyz at 5+, compared to (7th ed) 300 points for 30 boyz at 4+.
The last game I played had 20CP, and I never got below 8 during the game (I forgot a few chances to reroll, but still.)
The question I have now is it worth 6CP to have 90 of them, or even 8 to get 120. A full brigade of 180 4+ blood axes, backed up by painboyz, would be an interesting test. Not sure the opponent would like it so much.
what the gak? 20cp? how on earth did you do that with a decent list?
Or was it just multiple battalions with boyz/warboss/painboyz? Im not a fan of green tide so i tend to not spam boyz.
Cheap grots make battalion access pretty simple. But to get to 20 he would need at least 1 brigade which is another can of....something lol...
They say the list comes up to about 2000 points, PL so that checks out. Maybe there's a way to extrapolate the worth of some of the units by it still though?
A Trukk is 3PL instead of 5 from the index, that's a nice start
Nobz 7PL instead of 11
Nob with banner is the same
Warbikers are 4PL instead of 5
The Morkanaut is 15PL down from 18
Big Mek down to 4PL from 5
Boyz are 4PL down from 5 (don't know what's up with this)
The Kustom Boosta-blasta, Boomdakka Snazzwagon, Megatrakka Scrapjet are 5PL
The Shokkjump Dragsta & Deffkilla Wartrike are 6 PL The Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy is 7PL (WHAT the hell GW?)
But but I thought they raised the cost of boyz to sell buggies?! There couldn't possibly be a nuanced explanation for it!
Red Corsair wrote: Boys may have gone up while their upgrades went down, have to wait and see.
Boyz don't have upgrades. Nob does, I guess, but I don't think it would be enough to offset a boyz price hike. But I guess we will have to see what happens.
Vineheart01 wrote: really the only upgrade that could go down is Big Shoota (currently 12ppm) or the PK could go down again (13pts atm i think?)
12ppm on a big shoota is definitely way too much. A Heavy B is better in every way but wepaon type and is 8. I would bet the BS goes down to 5 or 6 points. Can't boys take rockets? Maybe they went down.
Oh yeah they can take rokkits too, i forget about that one cause i never do it with general boy groups. Actually dont even bother with the heavy weapons on boyz to begin with.
But yeah the general BigShoota is 6pts, the 12ppm is counting the boy so they either made the Bigshoota cheaper or we got 13ppm bigshootas now.
On a wagon theyre 6pts each.
i do think they need to drop though. They really dont do much more than shootas, even with the reach.
Vineheart01 wrote: i do think they need to drop though. They really dont do much more than shootas, even with the reach.
Against T4 targets they average twice as many wounds as a shoota. Obviously not worth 6 points, which would pay for a whole extra shoota boy (at current prices) which gives you almost as much firepower plus makes the unit harder to kill and offers close combat ability. 2-3 points would probably be fair, but I suspect GW will go with 4-5 points.
Could just be an adjustment to the PL-Points ration, but it's promising. Would put the Trukk at about 60, where I think it should be.
It can be anywhere from like 50 to 69 points, but the also counts the average of the upgrades of which rokkits are one. So it's probably 60 bare maybe 55.
Vineheart01 wrote: 2cp to make a boyz unit 5+ save...really?
'Ard Boyz has always been a 4+....wtf....waste of cp...
We'll see how it plays out. 210 points + 2 CP for 30 boyz at 5+, compared to (7th ed) 300 points for 30 boyz at 4+.
The last game I played had 20CP, and I never got below 8 during the game (I forgot a few chances to reroll, but still.)
The question I have now is it worth 6CP to have 90 of them, or even 8 to get 120. A full brigade of 180 4+ blood axes, backed up by painboyz, would be an interesting test. Not sure the opponent would like it so much.
what the gak? 20cp? how on earth did you do that with a decent list?
Or was it just multiple battalions with boyz/warboss/painboyz? Im not a fan of green tide so i tend to not spam boyz.
lol it wasn't decent...brigade + battalion, mini-tide list. A true GT could do the same and be fairly competitive, though...5hq, several boyz units and grots, with minimized fast, heavy and elite.
Red Corsair wrote: How do you figure every other book deals with massed T8? Specifically we are talking knights as russes are MUCH easier to counter. There is a reason why Knights are stomping everything and need to be nerfed in CA. There isn't a single army that comes to mind besides obviously knights themselves that can hard counter knights without tailoring to an absurd level.
Most armies have some kind of high strength high damage weapons to down them or at least good amounts of mortal wounds to help with that. If your entire army is shooting a knight, and it doesn't die, you are going to have a problem.
I'm thinking of weapons in the power range of a lascannon or deff dread close combat weapon, not of one in the league of a volcano lance or volcano cannon (Castellan/Shadowsword main guns).
Russes are big problem for armies that cannot counter them. Index orks are such an army, since you basically need two units of tank bustas to kill one of them, and those tankbustas will be gone by turn 2.
There is no other way to "handle" russes during the first two turns besides shooting them.
Then there are baneblades, PBC, leviathans and repulsors, and CA may add any number of further T8 models you regularly see on tabletops.
Red Corsair wrote: Boys may have gone up while their upgrades went down, have to wait and see.
Boyz don't have upgrades. Nob does, I guess, but I don't think it would be enough to offset a boyz price hike. But I guess we will have to see what happens.
Boyz can have:
- a PK for 13
- a Kombi-Skorcha for 19
- 3 rokkits for 36
Plenty of potential for points/pl reduction, especially if they axe all non-model options, which means no more kombi weapon on the nob.
They say the list comes up to about 2000 points, PL so that checks out. Maybe there's a way to extrapolate the worth of some of the units by it still though?
A Trukk is 3PL instead of 5 from the index, that's a nice start
Nobz 7PL instead of 11
Nob with banner is the same
Warbikers are 4PL instead of 5
The Morkanaut is 15PL down from 18
Big Mek down to 4PL from 5
Boyz are 4PL down from 5 (don't know what's up with this)
The Kustom Boosta-blasta, Boomdakka Snazzwagon, Megatrakka Scrapjet are 5PL
The Shokkjump Dragsta & Deffkilla Wartrike are 6 PL The Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy is 7PL (WHAT the hell GW?)
But but I thought they raised the cost of boyz to sell buggies?! There couldn't possibly be a nuanced explanation for it!
It's almost as if PL hasn't jack all to do with anything. This tells us literally nothing, and I'm willing to bet that GW has just given up on PL entirely.
Warhammer 40,000 Well, guys - As you have spotted, some of the Ork models we've shown recently are on larger bases than they were previously supplied with.
As we have with several other armies in recent years, we're taking this opportunity to move some of our infantry models to bases more fitting to the size of the model - in most cases with Orks, to the newer 32mm base.
We've had a few people ask what the "official" base size is.
The answer is, that's it's both; You can use your models on whatever base they were provided with, or any base that model has been shown on in any of our Warhammer 40,000 publications.
If you have older models, you are welcome to rebase them if you like, and not if you don't - both base sizes are considered perfectly official. You don't need to go ripping the bases from under all 100+ of your green horde if you don't want to!
If you are attending an official Warhammer event, at one of our Warhammer World or Warhammer Fest events - either base sizes will be perfectly fine. If you are attending an Independently run Warhammer event, and are at all unsure - you should, as always, check with the event organiser.
JimOnMars wrote: Is the squigbuggy really 7 pl? Not sure I want one now.
That's what it says in GWs own list (and that list correctly adds up to 99PL) so it's extremely unlikely to be a typo.The squigbuggy is the one model from the new release I think I'll skip. The actual model for it I'm actually not too fond of and from a datasheet perspective I thought it should be in the 80ish points range. Not 130-150 as the PL would indicate.
Don't want to condemn it just yet, but it's not looking good for the squigglies
Squig Buggy is the all rounder though. Can tackle most targets, and should work well to either soften up or finish up targets the other Speed Freeks stuff target.
And, that Squig Mine is actually quite nasty. As an Ork player, the Mortal Wounds shouldn’t prove too much bother. But for stuff like Maureens and other elites, is a highly efficient denial weapon (just drop it on an objective and that, ideally in no man’s land or the enemy deployment ones.
Warhammer 40,000 Well, guys - As you have spotted, some of the Ork models we've shown recently are on larger bases than they were previously supplied with.
As we have with several other armies in recent years, we're taking this opportunity to move some of our infantry models to bases more fitting to the size of the model - in most cases with Orks, to the newer 32mm base.
We've had a few people ask what the "official" base size is.
The answer is, that's it's both; You can use your models on whatever base they were provided with, or any base that model has been shown on in any of our Warhammer 40,000 publications.
If you have older models, you are welcome to rebase them if you like, and not if you don't - both base sizes are considered perfectly official. You don't need to go ripping the bases from under all 100+ of your green horde if you don't want to!
If you are attending an official Warhammer event, at one of our Warhammer World or Warhammer Fest events - either base sizes will be perfectly fine. If you are attending an Independently run Warhammer event, and are at all unsure - you should, as always, check with the event organiser.
im a collector so i'll be getting a squigbuggy regardless as the only models i avoid are ones i literally cannot use or are hyper expensive to use (stormboyz official models...).
But i'd agree its probably the weaker of them all atm. If the PL is accurate to points...ew...
I just made 6 custom movement trays with sheet metal underneathe and every boy with a magnet on the base. two fit perfect in KFF bubble, with all the boyz being able to be deployed by simple placing the tray down. When they get packed the magnets hold them to the tray. thats 200 magnets fething wasted.
I just made 6 custom movement trays with sheet metal underneathe and every boy with a magnet on the base. two fit perfect in KFF bubble, with all the boyz being able to be deployed by simple placing the tray down. When they get packed the magnets hold them to the tray. thats 200 magnets fething wasted.
But the FB post said you can leave them on the old bases...
I just made 6 custom movement trays with sheet metal underneathe and every boy with a magnet on the base. two fit perfect in KFF bubble, with all the boyz being able to be deployed by simple placing the tray down. When they get packed the magnets hold them to the tray. thats 200 magnets fething wasted.
...Because you can still using the existing bases and they are official as far as GW is concerned?
i also noticed that out of all the list entries in the GW speed freeks list that the bigmek has a listed upgrade. which just might mean that the bigmek will split into a profile that only has the SAG, but what of the bigmek with kff? well there is no official model with a KFF and thus will probably left in the index. no wonder why they brought a morkanaut for the KFF, its becasue its the only way they can get a 5up invul bubble in the new codex.....
GW needs to sort this whole ork HQ thing out. i love the new buggies, but they realy needed to make kits for our iconic HQs. not only can we not get a KFF bikemek with pts adjustments in the future but if suspicions are correct then we wont even be able to get any type of bigmek with any kff with updated pts.
well of course i guess there is the mega armored bigmek that can take the kff. but good luck having a mov4 model keeping up with a speedfreeks list or even a foot sloggin list.
the biggest issue of using a morkanaut to get a fast kff is that it is a massive target. ive run a massive dreddmob apocalypse game and my opponent soon learned to target the massive kff morkanauts which i was unlucky enough of them exploding and doing horrendous damage to everything they were meant to protect (even caused another few explodes results from other dredd...thats my luck).
Eh, it's just like the original SM rebasing kerfuffle: ultimately, there's enough pros and cons between each that there will never be a consensus as to which is "better", and practically speaking the few mm difference will have less of an impact in games compared to the inevitable imprecision and inaccuracies in movement and placing of models (and especially so when dealing with models on smaller bases that are prone to falling over).
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Squig Buggy is the all rounder though. Can tackle most targets, and should work well to either soften up or finish up targets the other Speed Freeks stuff target.
And, that Squig Mine is actually quite nasty. As an Ork player, the Mortal Wounds shouldn’t prove too much bother. But for stuff like Maureens and other elites, is a highly efficient denial weapon (just drop it on an objective and that, ideally in no man’s land or the enemy deployment ones.
Warhammer 40,000 Well, guys - As you have spotted, some of the Ork models we've shown recently are on larger bases than they were previously supplied with.
As we have with several other armies in recent years, we're taking this opportunity to move some of our infantry models to bases more fitting to the size of the model - in most cases with Orks, to the newer 32mm base.
We've had a few people ask what the "official" base size is.
The answer is, that's it's both; You can use your models on whatever base they were provided with, or any base that model has been shown on in any of our Warhammer 40,000 publications.
If you have older models, you are welcome to rebase them if you like, and not if you don't - both base sizes are considered perfectly official. You don't need to go ripping the bases from under all 100+ of your green horde if you don't want to!
If you are attending an official Warhammer event, at one of our Warhammer World or Warhammer Fest events - either base sizes will be perfectly fine. If you are attending an Independently run Warhammer event, and are at all unsure - you should, as always, check with the event organiser.
Hope that helps!
It most definitely does help!
From the statlines we've seen so far, I'd argue that the squig buggy is by no means the all-rounder, that'd be the Boosta-Blasta. That thing can put out 4d3 flamer hits against infantry, the rivet kannon can smack elites or tanks, and the ram can hit elites with mortal wounds.
The squig buggy falls absolutely flat against tanks, most Elites in the game thanks to low AP, and cheap chaff. It's at best a niche unit dedicated to fighting high-toughness low-armor targets like grotesques, big daemons and gsc aberrants. It has the lowest movespeed we've seen so far, identical defenses, and is tied for the weakest melee (again, so far, I suppose the boomdakka could have no melee capabilities at all). There's no way it should be solidly more expensive than every buggy.
It's yet another unit with a "false choice" built right in - against nearly every common target you can shake a squig at, the D3 shot profile is best and the 1 shot profile is worst. Only against SPECIFICALLY S6 and S3 targets with 4+ or better armor and multiple wounds does the 1 shot profile do better. The poison profile is best against most things over T4 with no armor save. But not that much better.
Red Corsair wrote: How do you figure every other book deals with massed T8? Specifically we are talking knights as russes are MUCH easier to counter. There is a reason why Knights are stomping everything and need to be nerfed in CA. There isn't a single army that comes to mind besides obviously knights themselves that can hard counter knights without tailoring to an absurd level.
Most armies have some kind of high strength high damage weapons to down them or at least good amounts of mortal wounds to help with that. If your entire army is shooting a knight, and it doesn't die, you are going to have a problem.
I'm thinking of weapons in the power range of a lascannon or deff dread close combat weapon, not of one in the league of a volcano lance or volcano cannon (Castellan/Shadowsword main guns).
Russes are big problem for armies that cannot counter them. Index orks are such an army, since you basically need two units of tank bustas to kill one of them, and those tankbustas will be gone by turn 2.
There is no other way to "handle" russes during the first two turns besides shooting them.
Then there are baneblades, PBC, leviathans and repulsors, and CA may add any number of further T8 models you regularly see on tabletops.
Red Corsair wrote: Boys may have gone up while their upgrades went down, have to wait and see.
Boyz don't have upgrades. Nob does, I guess, but I don't think it would be enough to offset a boyz price hike. But I guess we will have to see what happens.
Boyz can have:
- a PK for 13
- a Kombi-Skorcha for 19
- 3 rokkits for 36
Plenty of potential for points/pl reduction, especially if they axe all non-model options, which means no more kombi weapon on the nob.
Not every army has higher strength high damage weapons all over the place. I play DE, nobody in there right mind is going to call them bad and their mainline AT is s8. One weapon is s9 on the bomber and it isn't all that great a platform all things considered. Orks will be fine from whats leaked so far, probably closer to top tier, the entire army is going to be on the doorstep in one fething turn, they need a draw back if you call that one, again show me which solo army is matching up with knights well.
As for russes, I play catachans, russes are solid but they can be shut down fairly easily, they get bracketed after only 6 wounds, thats two fething rockets lol.
I've been using 32mm on my Ork Killteam models and Kommandos. I think the metal Ard Boyz I have shoukd fit better on 32s as they fall over alot. But, the other 150+ boyz cab stay the way they are.
Alendrel wrote: Eh, it's just like the original SM rebasing kerfuffle: ultimately, there's enough pros and cons between each that there will never be a consensus as to which is "better", and practically speaking the few mm difference will have less of an impact in games compared to the inevitable imprecision and inaccuracies in movement and placing of models (and especially so when dealing with models on smaller bases that are prone to falling over).
A 64% gain will have less impact than imprecision? Really?
I know they said its fine, but if I want to go to an event (which I do enjoy competing in) I cant use more boyz if they are on 25s. Also, boyz look markedly better on 32s.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: I know they said its fine, but if I want to go to an event (which I do enjoy competing in) I cant use more boyz if they are on 25s. Also, boyz look markedly better on 32s.
obviously using 25s can be a huge advantage (number of models in cover, combat or kff [if it still exists]).
It all depends on the TOs. It could very well be that their decision of whether or not allowing 25s will sway the outcome.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: I know they said its fine, but if I want to go to an event (which I do enjoy competing in) I cant use more boyz if they are on 25s. Also, boyz look markedly better on 32s.
Someone already shared a link for those base extender rings somewhere in here. That would save your bases with magnets and all you would need is to extend the basing material out a little on each edge a few at a time as you use the army, after a few months it will get done and not cost as much as snapping them off the existing bases.
Alendrel wrote: Eh, it's just like the original SM rebasing kerfuffle: ultimately, there's enough pros and cons between each that there will never be a consensus as to which is "better", and practically speaking the few mm difference will have less of an impact in games compared to the inevitable imprecision and inaccuracies in movement and placing of models (and especially so when dealing with models on smaller bases that are prone to falling over).
There's a bit of a difference between a couple dozen infantry and a couple hundred. If you play with any amount of terrain, deployment could already be an issue of just finding a place to fit all your models. These new buggies and the trike don't have a small footprint either.
I dont think this will be up to GW, it all depends on how powerfull boyz on 25mm bases will be compared to 32mm.
As we all know, the number of boyz in a an area is proportional to the square of base size. You can get 63% more 25mm boyz in the same space as 32s.
For math-challenged GW, this doesn't seem to matter. I think most people will start throwing our their new 32mm bases and buying 25s aftermarket.
21% more. A 25mm base is 78% of the size of a 32mm. If you are dumb enough to put them base to base. Since the greater strategic advantage lies in putting them 1-2" apart I don't think it's going to matter as much as you think.
There was a bunch of this 'The World Ends Now' placard carrying stuff when marines went to 32mm. It's actual effect is so little that most tournaments haven't bothered enforcing the change.
If folk are really worried about the 32mm bases, use them vertically rather than horizontally, you'll be able to fit far more Orks in a given space that way...…...
I dont think this will be up to GW, it all depends on how powerfull boyz on 25mm bases will be compared to 32mm.
As we all know, the number of boyz in a an area is proportional to the square of base size. You can get 63% more 25mm boyz in the same space as 32s.
For math-challenged GW, this doesn't seem to matter. I think most people will start throwing our their new 32mm bases and buying 25s aftermarket.
21% more. A 25mm base is 78% of the size of a 32mm. If you are dumb enough to put them base to base. Since the greater strategic advantage lies in putting them 1-2" apart I don't think it's going to matter as much as you think.
There was a bunch of this 'The World Ends Now' placard carrying stuff when marines went to 32mm. It's actual effect is so little that most tournaments haven't bothered enforcing the change.
Euh, nope ... we are talking about the surface it takes on the field.
A 25mm base takes about 4.9 cm2 on your table, while a 32mm base takes 8.0 cm2.
Therefore, on any given surface, you put 64% more 25mm bases than you would put 32mm bases ...
Edit: For instance, on a 10cm by 10cm square surface, you can fit 12 boyz on 32mm bases but 20 boyz on 25mm bases
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: I know they said its fine, but if I want to go to an event (which I do enjoy competing in) I cant use more boyz if they are on 25s. Also, boyz look markedly better on 32s.
Just get 200 32mm metal discs to put the models on when you need to and use the 25mm bases when you can.
I'm hoping what really makes this codex is much like others will be strat synergy which with the scale of ork units could be big. Like blood axe always being in cover trait.. now the 2cp 5+ makes ye unit of 30 storm boys a 4+ chuck a pain boy in and a deff trike making em adv and charge ye building some good stuff.
I dont think this will be up to GW, it all depends on how powerfull boyz on 25mm bases will be compared to 32mm.
As we all know, the number of boyz in a an area is proportional to the square of base size. You can get 63% more 25mm boyz in the same space as 32s.
For math-challenged GW, this doesn't seem to matter. I think most people will start throwing our their new 32mm bases and buying 25s aftermarket.
21% more. A 25mm base is 78% of the size of a 32mm. If you are dumb enough to put them base to base. Since the greater strategic advantage lies in putting them 1-2" apart I don't think it's going to matter as much as you think.
There was a bunch of this 'The World Ends Now' placard carrying stuff when marines went to 32mm. It's actual effect is so little that most tournaments haven't bothered enforcing the change.
OY.
Put 4 25mm boyz in a 50mm square. now double the size to 50mm. You now get 1 boy in that square (1/BaseSizeIncrease)^2.
This works no matter what the increase proportion is. The number of boyz is inversely proportional to the square of the increase in size.
And yes, I am frequently "Dumb enough" to put a lot of boyz in base contact with each other, when in combat, cover, or in a kff. Or when deploying them. Or when leaving a vehicle.
Good thing I'm "Dumb enough" to do that though...I don't know where'd I'd be if I weren't "Dumb enough."
Latro_ wrote: I'm hoping what really makes this codex is much like others will be strat synergy which with the scale of ork units could be big. Like blood axe always being in cover trait.. now the 2cp 5+ makes ye unit of 30 storm boys a 4+ chuck a pain boy in and a deff trike making em adv and charge ye building some good stuff.
It's all gonna be about those 2-3 pages of strats
I've seen several people suggest something like this in regards to the 'Ardboyz strat. Either stormboyz or flash gitz but has there been any indication that it works on anything other than normal boyz? I seriously doubt it will but it'd be fun to be proven wrong I suppose
Red Corsair wrote: Also you guys are assuming the KFF remained the same. It might have a much shorter range but flat effects entire units it touches again.
It's more logical to assume the kff will stay the same instead of guessing it will change based on no evidence or rumors. The kff has never affected anything before like you've suggested it might change into (as far as I remember). Granted I would like it to change that way, but that's a pipe dream.
geargutz wrote: i also noticed that out of all the list entries in the GW speed freeks list that the bigmek has a listed upgrade. which just might mean that the bigmek will split into a profile that only has the SAG, but what of the bigmek with kff? well there is no official model with a KFF and thus will probably left in the index. no wonder why they brought a morkanaut for the KFF, its becasue its the only way they can get a 5up invul bubble in the new codex.....
GW needs to sort this whole ork HQ thing out. i love the new buggies, but they realy needed to make kits for our iconic HQs. not only can we not get a KFF bikemek with pts adjustments in the future but if suspicions are correct then we wont even be able to get any type of bigmek with any kff with updated pts.
well of course i guess there is the mega armored bigmek that can take the kff. but good luck having a mov4 model keeping up with a speedfreeks list or even a foot sloggin list.
the biggest issue of using a morkanaut to get a fast kff is that it is a massive target. ive run a massive dreddmob apocalypse game and my opponent soon learned to target the massive kff morkanauts which i was unlucky enough of them exploding and doing horrendous damage to everything they were meant to protect (even caused another few explodes results from other dredd...thats my luck).
This has always been the problem with the orkanauts. I had a game vs nids where I took 3. All 3 died by turn 5 however they did almost no damage on their own. Luckily for me I had the opposite situation. 2 of the 3 exploded and were surrounded by mounds of nids both horde and big bug alike. They took out so many of my opponents models that it shifted the tempo and I ended up winning. However they would have been worth about 120 points each had they not exploded.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Squig Buggy is the all rounder though. Can tackle most targets, and should work well to either soften up or finish up targets the other Speed Freeks stuff target.
And, that Squig Mine is actually quite nasty. As an Ork player, the Mortal Wounds shouldn’t prove too much bother. But for stuff like Maureens and other elites, is a highly efficient denial weapon (just drop it on an objective and that, ideally in no man’s land or the enemy deployment ones.
Warhammer 40,000 Well, guys - As you have spotted, some of the Ork models we've shown recently are on larger bases than they were previously supplied with.
As we have with several other armies in recent years, we're taking this opportunity to move some of our infantry models to bases more fitting to the size of the model - in most cases with Orks, to the newer 32mm base.
We've had a few people ask what the "official" base size is.
The answer is, that's it's both; You can use your models on whatever base they were provided with, or any base that model has been shown on in any of our Warhammer 40,000 publications.
If you have older models, you are welcome to rebase them if you like, and not if you don't - both base sizes are considered perfectly official. You don't need to go ripping the bases from under all 100+ of your green horde if you don't want to!
If you are attending an official Warhammer event, at one of our Warhammer World or Warhammer Fest events - either base sizes will be perfectly fine. If you are attending an Independently run Warhammer event, and are at all unsure - you should, as always, check with the event organiser.
Hope that helps!
It most definitely does help!
From the statlines we've seen so far, I'd argue that the squig buggy is by no means the all-rounder, that'd be the Boosta-Blasta. That thing can put out 4d3 flamer hits against infantry, the rivet kannon can smack elites or tanks, and the ram can hit elites with mortal wounds.
The squig buggy falls absolutely flat against tanks, most Elites in the game thanks to low AP, and cheap chaff. It's at best a niche unit dedicated to fighting high-toughness low-armor targets like grotesques, big daemons and gsc aberrants. It has the lowest movespeed we've seen so far, identical defenses, and is tied for the weakest melee (again, so far, I suppose the boomdakka could have no melee capabilities at all). There's no way it should be solidly more expensive than every buggy.
It's yet another unit with a "false choice" built right in - against nearly every common target you can shake a squig at, the D3 shot profile is best and the 1 shot profile is worst. Only against SPECIFICALLY S6 and S3 targets with 4+ or better armor and multiple wounds does the 1 shot profile do better. The poison profile is best against most things over T4 with no armor save. But not that much better.
Perhaps in a gunline type ork horde army the mine is meant to cut off charge lanes to the shooty units? a squad of 3 on a flank could drop 3 mines next to lootas or something else before moving forward. then they can shoot and move forward while the units meant to advance can.
TedNugent wrote: There's so much stuff coming out that it's as fascinating as it is frustrating to wait to see it all come together.
My head is already swirling, but it's not really enough to concretize a list building strategy or even commit to a clan paintjob yet.
I keep thinking, a deff trike evil sunz list with walkers and skorchas out the bottom would be intredasting.
All my vehicles are already either red or metallic with lots of red bits. My boys are painted by unit - 90, in three different helmet colors, and 30 more "neutral" because they are converted WHFB dudes. I will not be repainting, or resizing. If a TO tells me I have to put them on 32's I will tell said TO stick a large stack of said 32's in a fungal place where the sun don't shine.
Since so far the Evil Sunz rules look awesome, I am glad for my red paint. My car is also red, but since it's a Fiat it definitely doesn't go faster.
I dont think this will be up to GW, it all depends on how powerfull boyz on 25mm bases will be compared to 32mm.
As we all know, the number of boyz in a an area is proportional to the square of base size. You can get 63% more 25mm boyz in the same space as 32s.
For math-challenged GW, this doesn't seem to matter. I think most people will start throwing our their new 32mm bases and buying 25s aftermarket.
21% more. A 25mm base is 78% of the size of a 32mm. If you are dumb enough to put them base to base. Since the greater strategic advantage lies in putting them 1-2" apart I don't think it's going to matter as much as you think.
There was a bunch of this 'The World Ends Now' placard carrying stuff when marines went to 32mm. It's actual effect is so little that most tournaments haven't bothered enforcing the change.
Exactly what strategic advantage to you gain by spreading your boyz out 1 to 2 inches apart, now that templates don't exist?
Exactly what strategic advantage to you gain by spreading your boyz out 1 to 2 inches apart, now that templates don't exist?
Larger foot prints to deny deep strikes, fewer models needed to chain back to aura characters or objectives or what have you, better ability to deny enemy movement options.
Exactly what strategic advantage to you gain by spreading your boyz out 1 to 2 inches apart, now that templates don't exist?
Larger foot prints to deny deep strikes, fewer models needed to chain back to aura characters or objectives or what have you, better ability to deny enemy movement options.
You know, minor things.
Most footslogging Ork armies can barely fit their army where they need it. That reasoning makes sense for a smaller model count, but not for big Ork army.
Exactly what strategic advantage to you gain by spreading your boyz out 1 to 2 inches apart, now that templates don't exist?
Larger foot prints to deny deep strikes, fewer models needed to chain back to aura characters or objectives or what have you, better ability to deny enemy movement options.
You know, minor things.
The thing is that boyz are already so good at those things with their relatively cheap 30 model mobs that going to 32mm is a truly minor advantage.
On the flip side going from being able to fight in four ranks to fighting in two ranks is quite a substantial disadvantage. There are also disadvantages when it comes to trying to keep inside a KFF bubble and when it comes to disembarking from transports.
So while there are advantages and disadvantages the advantages don't come anywhere close to making up for the disadvantages from a gameplay standpoint. Of course it's impossible to know how Boyz are going to perform without the rest of the codex, as other things are likely to change.
Personally I'm not very competitive, so I'm going to spend the hundreds of dollars to rebase my my boyz and I'll hopefully be happy with how they look and with them no longer tipping over so much. I can see how competitive players would be extremely concerned though.
Exactly what strategic advantage to you gain by spreading your boyz out 1 to 2 inches apart, now that templates don't exist?
Larger foot prints to deny deep strikes, fewer models needed to chain back to aura characters or objectives or what have you, better ability to deny enemy movement options.
You know, minor things.
Most footslogging Ork armies can barely fit their army where they need it. That reasoning makes sense for a smaller model count, but not for big Ork army.
The reasoning still holds. And it's not like its "120 Boyz or No Boyz".
TedNugent wrote: Evil sunz walkers would move an average of 11.5" a turn if they advance, then wartrike waaagh.
They are seriously fast. If you were using assault weapons, they could sling them without penalty.
It makes Rokkit and KMB Kanz much more palatable to take, especially with the expected points reductions coming our way.
Rokkit kanz are definitely about to be a thing.
That is no joke.
Rokkits are sort of haha lol maybe it will hit. With a unit flying down the board with can openers at 11 inches a turn longing those things out at BS4, that is not just silliness any more.
TedNugent wrote: Evil sunz walkers would move an average of 11.5" a turn if they advance, then wartrike waaagh.
They are seriously fast. If you were using assault weapons, they could sling them without penalty.
It makes Rokkit and KMB Kanz much more palatable to take, especially with the expected points reductions coming our way.
Rokkit kanz are definitely about to be a thing.
That is no joke.
Rokkits are sort of haha lol maybe it will hit. With a unit flying down the board with can openers at 11 inches a turn longing those things out at BS4, that is not just silliness any more.
Yeah, makes me kinda regret painting my Kanz as deffskullz now to be honest.
I just recreated GWs Speedfreaks list and it only came to 1,570 points (replaced wartike with warboss on bike 90pts and buggies with classic 43pts buggies). I'm a little concerned now... if the stuff went doen in points then how did it end up at 2k points unless each buggy was like 120+ pts each. Unless they maxed top upgrades on everything.
lolman1c wrote: I just recreated GWs Speedfreaks list and it only came to 1,570 points (replaced wartike with warboss on bike 90pts and buggies with classic 43pts buggies). I'm a little concerned now... if the stuff went doen in points then how did it end up at 2k points unless each buggy was like 120+ pts each. Unless they maxed top upgrades on everything.
Those new buggies will probably all be between 80 and 120 points. The Wartrike will definitely be over 90 pts.
Translating between PL and points is a bad idea. The old stuff they put into the list would be already at a wopping 78 PL now, or between 1152 and 1479 points. In their example they pay only 59 PL, thats MUCH cheaper and comes closer to the ~20 points per PL calculation GW seems to do. It seems 2 Trikes and the 5 buggies cost 40 PL, which should be about 800 points. But it could be as low as 500 points. No one knows till the codex is out.
Part of PL is upgrades. Consider nobz, in the index they are 11 PL but the base unit costs 17ppm.
The issue is they have a lot of possible upgrades, you can give them each kmobi skorchas and powerklawa, and ammo runts for well about three times their base cost. Their PL cost doesn't change. Trying to workout points from PL doesn't work if an unit has upgrades, they often have an inflated PL based on how many upgrades they could take.
lolman1c wrote: I just recreated GWs Speedfreaks list and it only came to 1,570 points (replaced wartike with warboss on bike 90pts and buggies with classic 43pts buggies). I'm a little concerned now... if the stuff went doen in points then how did it end up at 2k points unless each buggy was like 120+ pts each. Unless they maxed top upgrades on everything.
Those new buggies will probably all be between 80 and 120 points. The Wartrike will definitely be over 90 pts.
Yeah, using 90 for trikes and 43 for buggies is way shortchanging the cost of the new trikes and buggies. Trikes are going to be close to 120 based on the listed PL, and the PL 7 Squigbuggy will cost even more than that.
lolman1c wrote: I just recreated GWs Speedfreaks list and it only came to 1,570 points (replaced wartike with warboss on bike 90pts and buggies with classic 43pts buggies). I'm a little concerned now... if the stuff went doen in points then how did it end up at 2k points unless each buggy was like 120+ pts each. Unless they maxed top upgrades on everything.
Those new buggies will probably all be between 80 and 120 points. The Wartrike will definitely be over 90 pts.
Yeah, using 90 for trikes and 43 for buggies is way shortchanging the cost of the new trikes and buggies. Trikes are going to be close to 120 based on the listed PL, and the PL 7 Squigbuggy will cost even more than that.
TedNugent wrote: Rokkit kanz are definitely about to be a thing.
That is no joke.
Rokkits are sort of haha lol maybe it will hit. With a unit flying down the board with can openers at 11 inches a turn longing those things out at BS4, that is not just silliness any more.
I have 6x Rokkit Kans and 5x Rokkit Grot Tanks, so getting a kick out of that.
So, we're a little over halfway through "Orktober" - has a single model actually been released for sale yet?
Personally I'm not very competitive, so I'm going to spend the hundreds of dollars to rebase my my boyz and I'll hopefully be happy with how they look and with them no longer tipping over so much. I can see how competitive players would be extremely concerned though.
I bought 200 32mm bases from eBay for $24 so hopefully you wont need hundreds of dollars! The time investment is more of a pain, but for me Orks are THE army. I don't spend much these days on other forces, using Kill Team as an excuse to paint something different. I don't play competitively either so I could care less about the advantages/disadvantages - I like the look of 32mm bases so decided to rebase my collection. I'm pretty happy with most of the new stuff, though I was really hoping for a plastic weirdboy and kommandos (still hoping for those, even though it seems like we would have had the leak by now).
TedNugent wrote: Rokkit kanz are definitely about to be a thing.
That is no joke.
Rokkits are sort of haha lol maybe it will hit. With a unit flying down the board with can openers at 11 inches a turn longing those things out at BS4, that is not just silliness any more.
I have 6x Rokkit Kans and 5x Rokkit Grot Tanks, so getting a kick out of that.
So, we're a little over halfway through "Orktober" - has a single model actually been released for sale yet?
Not a single ork release unless you count the killteam commander...
So, we're a little over halfway through "Orktober" - has a single model actually been released for sale yet?
No, but really, so what. They've been talking about Orks more than any release this year that I can remember, since Death Guard maybe? The models are coming, the rules are coming, and both look pretty great. At this point, I no longer care about the technicalities of when Orktober is Orktober.
The Deathwatch Commander is just a re-release of Grukk, right? So, not to move the goalposts but I think that's still a no; he's been available for a long time I believe.
Vineheart01 wrote: 2cp to make a boyz unit 5+ save...really?
'Ard Boyz has always been a 4+....wtf....waste of cp...
Would you rather pay CP, a thing that you get simply for the list you bring...or actual points?
I am surprised about the 5+ save though.
CP are a resource just like points. Armies that effectively use points in list creation and CPs during the battle are the armies that win.
It's a total waste of CP which is the same as wasting points on bad units.
That's assuming orks will be hungry for CP or will be like IG with more CP than they know how to use(without even regenarion). With 18CP for basic ork army easily(without considering possibility brigades might be viable) they certainly will have plenty of those.
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TedNugent wrote: I think you guys dissing the trike klaw are missing the whole fact that -1 to hit was not mentioned.
That means hitting on 2's. Then reroll to wound at strength 7 with 5 attacks.
It's good weapon but not for tank hunting. Go chase characters with it. Not vehicles. If you want vehicle hunting it's power klaw and even that's bad.
Latro_ wrote: Stormboyz i'd say:
big unit and the one most likely to get bodies into CTC where a better save is more useful, vs shooting you should already be using KFF and pain boyz
Wow hadn't even considered it in Storm boyz....
If I could get ahold of 30 rokkit packs (3rd party or scratch built) that could be waaaaaghsome! I'm sure there's a 3rs party bits site that has rockets or missiles that would fit the bill.
Problem with stormboyz is you can get max 3 units. Even with 5++ and painboy for 1st turn(during which you get to close combat) those are easily blown apart even by sub-optimal gunline as I found out this tuesday.
tneva82 wrote: Don't think orks are supposed to tower over space marines though...
Yeah, ork boyz are supposed to be about the same height as a regular human when they're all stooped over (which is proper orky posture) so a Space Marine should be about as tall as a Nob (although not as bulky).
I hope they use the Primaris reset to put an end to scale creep.
Which means they should be bit shorter than the space marines. If they were same size as primaris(head taller than marines and thus 2 heads taller than humans) that would be ridiculous.
They say the list comes up to about 2000 points, PL so that checks out. Maybe there's a way to extrapolate the worth of some of the units by it still though?
A Trukk is 3PL instead of 5 from the index, that's a nice start
Nobz 7PL instead of 11
Nob with banner is the same
Warbikers are 4PL instead of 5
The Morkanaut is 15PL down from 18
Big Mek down to 4PL from 5
Boyz are 4PL down from 5 (don't know what's up with this)
The Kustom Boosta-blasta, Boomdakka Snazzwagon, Megatrakka Scrapjet are 5PL
The Shokkjump Dragsta & Deffkilla Wartrike are 6 PL The Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy is 7PL (WHAT the hell GW?)
But but I thought they raised the cost of boyz to sell buggies?! There couldn't possibly be a nuanced explanation for it!
And look how little boyz there are. 7 pts boyz are crap. The boyz were already bad in index vs index and now relative gap increased it.
Red Corsair wrote: Boys may have gone up while their upgrades went down, have to wait and see.
Boyz don't have upgrades. Nob does, I guess, but I don't think it would be enough to offset a boyz price hike. But I guess we will have to see what happens.
Nobz with stuff like kombi weapons and of course big shootas and rokkits. So yeah maybe you can get loaded up with power klaw and kombi skorcha nob with 3 rokkits cheaper. Weeee! Those are actually detriment to the squad so not much of a help. What good is fancy gear when you get blown to bits.
I just made 6 custom movement trays with sheet metal underneathe and every boy with a magnet on the base. two fit perfect in KFF bubble, with all the boyz being able to be deployed by simple placing the tray down. When they get packed the magnets hold them to the tray. thats 200 magnets fething wasted.
Why? Keep them on the old bases. If some TFG complains just show middle finger and enjoy their tears. TFG's deserve no mercy anyway.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: I know they said its fine, but if I want to go to an event (which I do enjoy competing in) I cant use more boyz if they are on 25s. Also, boyz look markedly better on 32s.
Just get 200 32mm metal discs to put the models on when you need to and use the 25mm bases when you can.
Well. That idea would kill my movement trays(which I have spent hundreds). So if somebody in tournament tries to force that...Well I can do it but then against that TFG I will play suuuuuuuuuper slow and we'll get max 2 turns. Take that TFG
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nflagey wrote: By the way, not sure it was ever mentioned here, but the cost is apparently $156.25 in the US (according to my FLGS) ...
That random number? GW doesn't do those. It's 90£ which is tooth and claw. Check what that costs. 150$ is what games-workshop.com tells you. If your FLGS charges you more than GW direct maybe order from GW direct!
Exactly what strategic advantage to you gain by spreading your boyz out 1 to 2 inches apart, now that templates don't exist?
Larger foot prints to deny deep strikes, fewer models needed to chain back to aura characters or objectives or what have you, better ability to deny enemy movement options.
You know, minor things.
Most footslogging Ork armies can barely fit their army where they need it. That reasoning makes sense for a smaller model count, but not for big Ork army.
The reasoning still holds. And it's not like its "120 Boyz or No Boyz".
Actually it is. 30-60 boyz will be shot off the board in turn. Even sub-optimal gunline will blow 50+ orks in a turn so if you have token unit or two you can count those being dead first time enemy gets to act.
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lolman1c wrote: I just recreated GWs Speedfreaks list and it only came to 1,570 points (replaced wartike with warboss on bike 90pts and buggies with classic 43pts buggies). I'm a little concerned now... if the stuff went doen in points then how did it end up at 2k points unless each buggy was like 120+ pts each. Unless they maxed top upgrades on everything.
Buggies look to be 5-6 PL each so that's 100+ pts each. Were you using old buggy costs for those? These are NOT replacement models for old buggies. Rules don't match, point costs won't match, sizes way off. You were expecting to get tougher shootier buggies for same price? Okay GW wants to sell other stuff rather than boyz but that would be ridiculous. And also we already know PL's of new buggies which are twice+ bigger than 43 pts would mean.
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JimOnMars wrote: that list did look thin to me. 3x10 boyz and a few other things? A bit worried also.
Well with boyz suffering price hike you need to drop them a lot to fit room for non-boyz. Not surprised at all.
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nflagey wrote: I'm quite surprised too ... Naftka was reporting it would cost 90 pounds, so a bit less than $120 ...
DO NOT use conversion rates to determine prices. We have 90£ reported. Assuming that's true then find on games workshop UK site product that costs 90£. I save time and say tooth&claw is one. Then change site to US. Check item. See it's 150$. THAT is the price.
GW has their own fixed rate and that's been years. Thus trying to extrapolate price from conversion rates is doomed to fail. You need to check price bands.
With current exchange rates UK has it cheapest, euro has next, US is more expensive and Japan/New Zealand/Australia are screwed. There's reason why in Finland for example unless you support your FLGS you order stuff from UK 3rd party stores. And there's reason why GW has forbidden UK stores from selling outside EU area. They would prevent to EU if they could but EU rules say "screw you" for that idea at least until next spring UK is cheapest by far for EU customers(FLGS's just can't compete with the exchange ratio savings)
reds8n wrote: ..soo .. all the new vehicles also appear to be on bases ?
Do we think this is a new thing -- it's not required in 8th is it ? -- , just an aesthetic thing or perhaps related to the gameplay of speed freeks ?
The practical reason is probably that it would be a nightmare to figure out which spike or exhaust pike to measure to.
In general, GW seems to be putting smaller vehicles on bases now, while larger ones remain unbased - for example, in the Death Guard range the blight haulers could easily have gone without bases, but plague burst crawler have no base.
Once GW eliminates the silly "can't touch this" rule for measuring in combat, measuring to bases rather than hull is all upside.
the main thought with the 'you can use whatever bases you like' is there any cunning tactics you can use with a big unit of boyz with a mix of smaller and larger bases
lolman1c wrote: I just recreated GWs Speedfreaks list and it only came to 1,570 points (replaced wartike with warboss on bike 90pts and buggies with classic 43pts buggies). I'm a little concerned now... if the stuff went doen in points then how did it end up at 2k points unless each buggy was like 120+ pts each. Unless they maxed top upgrades on everything.
Well okay, so let's try and break this down. If we add up the index prices for the units we already have there, at their absolute minimum cost, it totals up to 972 points.
SAG Big mek -80
10 Boyz -60
10 Boyz -60
10 Boyz -60
3 warbikers -81
3 warbikers -81
5 nobz -85
nob with banner -79
morkanaut -320
trukk -82
trukk -82
trukk -82
We "know" the boyz are going up 1ppm so that bring the list to 1002 points, excluding any of the new units. If we simply translate 1PL to 20points on the other units we'd end up with an additional 800 points. That'd bring the list total to 1802 then. After this it's really tough to calculate the points IMO. We are going to get some point decreases by the looks of it, the trukks for example have to go down a bit and probably quite a few other in the list as well. But then again, basically no-one takes all their units with the most basic gear. The nobz could be almost three time their points if you were for some reason give them all PK's and kombi-skorchas (probably to abuse the PL system). The morkanaut is without the KFF but hopefully the points drop at least enough for that to be "free". The warbikers and boyz would probably all have a PK in each unit
GW themselves state that 99PL comes to about 2000 points but I wouldn't be surprised if that could mean 1750 points either. The point of this very roundabout post is that we can't yet assume that the sky is falling. Too many uncertains still. I had hoped to see another unit or two in there to help signify bigger point drops and/or cheaper buggies but at least the wait is coming to an end.
TedNugent wrote: The only thing I'm getting out of all that is how useless and superfluous power level is.
It is at best confusing and at worst misleading.
It turns out there's an odd little subset of gamers who disdain points and "balance" and all that and "just want to have fun chucking dice/forging the narrative" etc, but also seem to need Official(tm) permission from GW to ignore the rules. Everything you can do with PL you can do with points by simply not enforcing a strict 1:1 ratio between players, but as with "Open Play" it seems like without it being written down in the book a few folk think it's impossible.
TedNugent wrote: The only thing I'm getting out of all that is how useless and superfluous power level is.
It is at best confusing and at worst misleading.
It turns out there's an odd little subset of gamers who disdain points and "balance" and all that and "just want to have fun chucking dice/forging the narrative" etc, but also seem to need Official(tm) permission from GW to ignore the rules. Everything you can do with PL you can do with points by simply not enforcing a strict 1:1 ratio between players, but as with "Open Play" it seems like without it being written down in the book a few folk think it's impossible.
TedNugent wrote: The only thing I'm getting out of all that is how useless and superfluous power level is.
It is at best confusing and at worst misleading.
but in all honesty im all for PL being a thing. im glad its there, we still got points and a chapter approved that will update pts annually so things dont stagnate too much. the PL is there for all those would would rather not obsess about every little thing in their list fitting a 2000pt list and is easier to set up for pickup games (i remember the shoddy math of pickup games back in 7th edition, now its much simpler and quicker, if not as balanced as pts).
PL is an approximate and is additionally a way GW can give us "hints" of what codex stuff will cost. they would never put the actual pt costs in the article from yesterday, but the PL was something they could do.
When you see words balanced and points together without negation(like "points aren't balanced at all") it's lol moment. As if anybody would seriously think any point system would be balanced. They aren't even meant to be and you are misusing points if you are trying to make balanced game out of them.
TedNugent wrote: The only thing I'm getting out of all that is how useless and superfluous power level is.
It is at best confusing and at worst misleading.
It turns out there's an odd little subset of gamers who disdain points and "balance" and all that and "just want to have fun chucking dice/forging the narrative" etc, but also seem to need Official(tm) permission from GW to ignore the rules. Everything you can do with PL you can do with points by simply not enforcing a strict 1:1 ratio between players, but as with "Open Play" it seems like without it being written down in the book a few folk think it's impossible.
Can you take that to another thread please?
This. All PL vs pts threads end in a toxic flame war. We've had enough of those in this thread.
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tneva82 wrote: Based on how? If enemy base is 1.5" above ground your stompa can't get his within 1" of enemy base and thus can't attack.
As it is gorkanaut struggles to remove models on upper floors as all it can do is shoot with guns.
Check the 8th ed rules one day. Seems you don't know how they work.
No you don't.
The premise was eliminating that rule. You just didn't read the post properly, as usual.
Seems you don't know how to process written information.
The biggest and most impressive vehicle of this era was the Space Ork Battlewagon. Released as a plastic kit in Orktober 1990, it’s packed with detail, including loads of crew and hangers-on. Notably, the back of the box included banner designs for all six of the Ork Clans, using the same iconography they each use today, nearly 30 years later
The second edition of Warhammer 40,000 launched with a boxed game that included an Ork Dreadnought! Well, sort of… it was actually a cardboard cut-out that the greenskins could use to bolster their forces.
Boy oh boy looks like a slow news day from Games Workshop. Were some ork-based 40k youtuber to release a tasty rules leak, I'd probably have to do what I did the last few times that happened and log on to an alternate Youtube account, like all his videos and leave them playing through my google speaker on mute for 24 hours.
I know this is going back into the PL vs points argument, I apologize. Wasn't it stated that PL is the median between cheapest option and most expensive? Therefore we could see points drops for most units also since they could have upgrades we don't know about yet that are factored in.
mhalko1 wrote: I know this is going back into the PL vs points argument, I apologize. Wasn't it stated that PL is the median between cheapest option and most expensive? Therefore we could see points drops for most units also since they could have upgrades we don't know about yet that are factored in.
I'm not sure about the median thing, they said that PL is somewhere between minimal and maximum cost. However, especially nobz seem to be paying a lot of PL for options you'd never give them - usually because you simply don't have models that have both a close combat weapon and a kombi-shoota. It's a safe bet that not a whole lot of thought as gone into the PL seen in the index, but all codices seem to be roughly following the 1 PL = 20 points rule, with most load-outs that you cannot build from the box being axed and thus driving max points possible down.
Crimson wrote: I'm waiting to see pics of the Mek Shop (I hope it makes good Necromunda terrain.) Was that something that was actually confirmed, or a mere rumour?
rumor as far as i believe. because it came with the rumor of the primork ghazghkull that if is true has been kept well under wrap.
Crimson wrote: I'm waiting to see pics of the Mek Shop (I hope it makes good Necromunda terrain.) Was that something that was actually confirmed, or a mere rumour?
As of now there is just one rumor mentioning it - but that rumors seems to be fully confirmed otherwise though.
It's possible that playtesters didn't get to test it though - neither the eldar nor the knight terrain seems be have been playtested by anyone
the_scotsman wrote: Boy oh boy looks like a slow news day from Games Workshop. Were some ork-based 40k youtuber to release a tasty rules leak, I'd probably have to do what I did the last few times that happened and log on to an alternate Youtube account, like all his videos and leave them playing through my google speaker on mute for 24 hours.
But whos giving those leaks to those youtubers if not GW themselves? This doesn't look like genuine leaks like Rogue Trader or the Necron Codex, but """""leaks"""" to hype up the community.
Why GW chose to give us this information this way instead of news in their site... I suppose is because people feels more... like they are accessing something illegal, that they shouldn't know, and thats exciting.
the_scotsman wrote: Boy oh boy looks like a slow news day from Games Workshop. Were some ork-based 40k youtuber to release a tasty rules leak, I'd probably have to do what I did the last few times that happened and log on to an alternate Youtube account, like all his videos and leave them playing through my google speaker on mute for 24 hours.
But whos giving those leaks to those youtubers if not GW themselves? This doesn't look like genuine leaks like Rogue Trader or the Necron Codex, but """""leaks"""" to hype up the community.
Why GW chose to give us this information this way instead of news in their site... I suppose is because people feels more... like they are accessing something illegal, that they shouldn't know, and thats exciting.
Yeah couldn't agree more. Some of these have been genuine leaks though. Anything before "Orktober" was probably a real leak, except maybe just before.
It's unlikely GW give out points costs for a full 2k army list worth of units in a brief preview.
An added benefit, of course, of knowing the Power Level of the different units is that we can figure out exactly how much of what we want to deepstrike in using that rumoured stratagem (should it be true of course). They've also used it so we can get a vague idea of what's gone down/up in price from index to codex without giving everything away.
Painting up my big mek in mega armour with kff (I made one myself out of an Ork head, spare KFF and marine armour) as I'm terrified that the mek won't have a kff. XD Still kinda hyped though to paint up buggies and stuff.
lolman1c wrote: Painting up my big mek in mega armour with kff (I made one myself out of an Ork head, spare KFF and marine armour) as I'm terrified that the mek won't have a kff. XD Still kinda hyped though to paint up buggies and stuff.
considering all the missing rules are either super old or didnt exist i doubt this is a problem.
There is official regular Big Mek w/ KFF and the new MANz box we got in 7th has the pieces for a MA Mek w/ KFF.
mhalko1 wrote: I know this is going back into the PL vs points argument, I apologize. Wasn't it stated that PL is the median between cheapest option and most expensive? Therefore we could see points drops for most units also since they could have upgrades we don't know about yet that are factored in.
I'm not sure about the median thing, they said that PL is somewhere between minimal and maximum cost. However, especially nobz seem to be paying a lot of PL for options you'd never give them - usually because you simply don't have models that have both a close combat weapon and a kombi-shoota. It's a safe bet that not a whole lot of thought as gone into the PL seen in the index, but all codices seem to be roughly following the 1 PL = 20 points rule, with most load-outs that you cannot build from the box being axed and thus driving max points possible down.
The median thing is how it works, and here is the math on Nobz to prove it: first you take the base of 85pts for 5 Nobz with no upgrades
Then add the maximum amount of upgrades which is; +240(5x 28p killsaws+20p kombi-rokkits), +20 ammo runts x5, +5 cybork body + 85 Nobz x5= 350
Add minimum 85 and maximum upgraded total 350 to get 435. Then divide by two for the median = 217.5 which rounds up to 11PL which is exactly what Nobz are in the Index
It is the massive difference between the minimum point value for Nobz versus maximum upgrades that shifts that median so high. That being said, there are some discrepancies, especially now that many of the Index point values are outdated without any matching updates being done to PL, but overall that is how it is intended to function.
mhalko1 wrote: I know this is going back into the PL vs points argument, I apologize. Wasn't it stated that PL is the median between cheapest option and most expensive? Therefore we could see points drops for most units also since they could have upgrades we don't know about yet that are factored in.
I'm not sure about the median thing, they said that PL is somewhere between minimal and maximum cost. However, especially nobz seem to be paying a lot of PL for options you'd never give them - usually because you simply don't have models that have both a close combat weapon and a kombi-shoota. It's a safe bet that not a whole lot of thought as gone into the PL seen in the index, but all codices seem to be roughly following the 1 PL = 20 points rule, with most load-outs that you cannot build from the box being axed and thus driving max points possible down.
The median thing is how it works, and here is the math on Nobz to prove it: first you take the base of 85pts for 5 Nobz with no upgrades
Then add the maximum amount of upgrades which is; +240(5x 28p killsaws+20p kombi-rokkits), +20 ammo runts x5, +5 cybork body + 85 Nobz x5= 350
Add minimum 85 and maximum upgraded total 350 to get 435. Then divide by two for the median = 217.5 which rounds up to 11PL which is exactly what Nobz are in the Index
It is the massive difference between the minimum point value for Nobz versus maximum upgrades that shifts that median so high. That being said, there are some discrepancies, especially now that many of the Index point values are outdated without any matching updates being done to PL, but overall that is how it is intended to function.
This would be a great system if anything about GWs point costing made sense.
But here we are, knowing the complete stats of three buggies, and knowing that the most expensive one is the worst of the three we've seen...
mhalko1 wrote: I know this is going back into the PL vs points argument, I apologize. Wasn't it stated that PL is the median between cheapest option and most expensive? Therefore we could see points drops for most units also since they could have upgrades we don't know about yet that are factored in.
I'm not sure about the median thing, they said that PL is somewhere between minimal and maximum cost. However, especially nobz seem to be paying a lot of PL for options you'd never give them - usually because you simply don't have models that have both a close combat weapon and a kombi-shoota. It's a safe bet that not a whole lot of thought as gone into the PL seen in the index, but all codices seem to be roughly following the 1 PL = 20 points rule, with most load-outs that you cannot build from the box being axed and thus driving max points possible down.
The median thing is how it works, and here is the math on Nobz to prove it: first you take the base of 85pts for 5 Nobz with no upgrades
Then add the maximum amount of upgrades which is; +240(5x 28p killsaws+20p kombi-rokkits), +20 ammo runts x5, +5 cybork body + 85 Nobz x5= 350
Add minimum 85 and maximum upgraded total 350 to get 435. Then divide by two for the median = 217.5 which rounds up to 11PL which is exactly what Nobz are in the Index
It is the massive difference between the minimum point value for Nobz versus maximum upgrades that shifts that median so high. That being said, there are some discrepancies, especially now that many of the Index point values are outdated without any matching updates being done to PL, but overall that is how it is intended to function.
This would be a great system if anything about GWs point costing made sense.
But here we are, knowing the complete stats of three buggies, and knowing that the most expensive one is the worst of the three we've seen...
We all know how GW loves to overprice generalists...
Latro_ wrote: the main thought with the 'you can use whatever bases you like' is there any cunning tactics you can use with a big unit of boyz with a mix of smaller and larger bases
Using the larger base ones to chain the boyz to an aura while putting the smaller base ones in melee to maximize the attacks ?
lolman1c wrote: Painting up my big mek in mega armour with kff (I made one myself out of an Ork head, spare KFF and marine armour) as I'm terrified that the mek won't have a kff. XD Still kinda hyped though to paint up buggies and stuff.
considering all the missing rules are either super old or didnt exist i doubt this is a problem.
There is official regular Big Mek w/ KFF and the new MANz box we got in 7th has the pieces for a MA Mek w/ KFF.
I highly, highly doubt that goes away.
there is no current big mek with kff. The only one is the old metal one and GW doesn't sell this any more. They do sell the MANz one though and that's the one I am making.
Latro_ wrote: the main thought with the 'you can use whatever bases you like' is there any cunning tactics you can use with a big unit of boyz with a mix of smaller and larger bases
Using the larger base ones to chain the boyz to an aura while putting the smaller base ones in melee to maximize the attacks ?
The problem with the "big bases give more area coverage" argument is that it doesn't take into account that large bases do not allow you to move any farther. The front edge of the base is still in exactly the same place with either size.
This allows you to leave more boyz in the deployment zone, and you do get more board control there. But where orks really need board control is on the leading edge of the wave, which is entirely a function of movement speed and not base size.
Latro_ wrote: the main thought with the 'you can use whatever bases you like' is there any cunning tactics you can use with a big unit of boyz with a mix of smaller and larger bases
Using the larger base ones to chain the boyz to an aura while putting the smaller base ones in melee to maximize the attacks ?
The problem with the "big bases give more area coverage" argument is that it doesn't take into account that large bases do not allow you to move any farther. The front edge of the base is still in exactly the same place with either size.
This allows you to leave more boyz in the deployment zone, and you do get more board control there. But where orks really need board control is on the leading edge of the wave, which is entirely a function of movement speed and not base size.
but then it doesn't matter. Because no matter what you're still screwed so you might as well have smaller bases and more orks up front to deal with it?
Latro_ wrote: the main thought with the 'you can use whatever bases you like' is there any cunning tactics you can use with a big unit of boyz with a mix of smaller and larger bases
Using the larger base ones to chain the boyz to an aura while putting the smaller base ones in melee to maximize the attacks ?
The problem with the "big bases give more area coverage" argument is that it doesn't take into account that large bases do not allow you to move any farther. The front edge of the base is still in exactly the same place with either size.
This allows you to leave more boyz in the deployment zone, and you do get more board control there. But where orks really need board control is on the leading edge of the wave, which is entirely a function of movement speed and not base size.
but then it doesn't matter. Because no matter what you're still screwed so you might as well have smaller bases and more orks up front to deal with it?
Of course.
There are those out there, however, that will see the pile of 32mm orks stuck in your deployment zone, and the dead ones that can't escape a vehicle, and those out of cover, and those out of combat, and those out of the kff, and call that an advantage to orks. These people actually exists.
Of course, game designers at GW are oblivious to all of this, and put orks on 32mm bases because they "look cool". It's a sad state of affairs when a game we love is controlled by such people.
Of course, game designers at GW are oblivious to all of this, and put orks on 32mm bases because they "look cool". It's a sad state of affairs when a game we love is controlled by such people.
Outside the echo chamber of forums like this one, I'd wager that "look cool" is important to a very large majority of GW's customers.
Of course, game designers at GW are oblivious to all of this, and put orks on 32mm bases because they "look cool". It's a sad state of affairs when a game we love is controlled by such people.
Outside the echo chamber of forums like this one, I'd wager that "look cool" is important to a very large majority of GW's customers.
I'm just imagining these supposed horde of Ork players who are pissed that they only got new models, a new codex, 6 clan options, about 20 community articles devoted to them, and a new board game. THEN GW HAD TO ADD INSULT TO INJURY AND CHANGE THE BASE SIZE.
Of course, game designers at GW are oblivious to all of this, and put orks on 32mm bases because they "look cool". It's a sad state of affairs when a game we love is controlled by such people.
Outside the echo chamber of forums like this one, I'd wager that "look cool" is important to a very large majority of GW's customers.
I'm just imagining these supposed horde of Ork players who are pissed that they only got new models, a new codex, 6 clan options, about 20 community articles devoted to them, and a new board game. THEN GW HAD TO ADD INSULT TO INJURY AND CHANGE THE BASE SIZE.
They're there, they're just hard to see behind the space marine players pissed about only getting new models, several new codexes, 9 chapter options, 100+ community articles devoted to them, several board games, and an entire spin off game.
Of course, game designers at GW are oblivious to all of this, and put orks on 32mm bases because they "look cool". It's a sad state of affairs when a game we love is controlled by such people.
Yes, they probably did it, because they do look better, but there's an argument to be made that a good unit that comes in large numbers unit shouldn't be rocking 25s. And if boyz are still good at 7 points on 32s with everything else they're going to be able to bring then your bluster is for nothing, really.
Of course, game designers at GW are oblivious to all of this, and put orks on 32mm bases because they "look cool". It's a sad state of affairs when a game we love is controlled by such people.
Outside the echo chamber of forums like this one, I'd wager that "look cool" is important to a very large majority of GW's customers.
I'm just imagining these supposed horde of Ork players who are pissed that they only got new models, a new codex, 6 clan options, about 20 community articles devoted to them, and a new board game. THEN GW HAD TO ADD INSULT TO INJURY AND CHANGE THE BASE SIZE.
They're there, they're just hard to see behind the space marine players pissed about only getting new models, several new codexes, 9 chapter options, 100+ community articles devoted to them, several board games, and an entire spin off game.
The best part of that comment was that before the Primaris controversy was the Space Marine 32mm controversy It's funny because it's so damn true.
Of course, game designers at GW are oblivious to all of this, and put orks on 32mm bases because they "look cool". It's a sad state of affairs when a game we love is controlled by such people.
Outside the echo chamber of forums like this one, I'd wager that "look cool" is important to a very large majority of GW's customers.
I'm just imagining these supposed horde of Ork players who are pissed that they only got new models, a new codex, 6 clan options, about 20 community articles devoted to them, and a new board game. THEN GW HAD TO ADD INSULT TO INJURY AND CHANGE THE BASE SIZE.
And by doing so, we lose 39% of the models in combat, models in the kff, models in cover, models that can fit after embarking, and models that can fit in the deployment zone.
You get that, right? What if guardsmen lost 39% of their shooting range because shorter guns "look better"?
Haha, I know... I also love how people can't understand how you can be hyped and excited for something but also be critical of the same thing.
I mean if I won the lottery but was also stabbed in the shoulder on the same day should I be told I'm not allowed to be angry at the dude who stabbed me? I'd be hyped I won the lottery but also pissed someone stabbed be in the shoulder.
lolman1c wrote: Haha, I know... I also love how people can't understand how you can be hyped and excited for something but also be critical of the same thing.
I mean if I won the lottery but was also stabbed in the shoulder on the same day should I be told I'm not allowed to be angry at the dude who stabbed me? I'd be hyped I won the lottery but also pissed someone stabbed be in the shoulder.
No, clearly you must continue to be hyped as now you have the money from the lottery to completely sue/destroy the pants off the guy who stabbed you in the most expensive way possible.
Deploying from vehicles only requires you to have some of your base within range of the vehicle, right? So larger bases could give you a slight advantage in reaching the enemy.
And by doing so, we lose 39% of the models in combat, models in the kff, models in cover, models that can fit after embarking, and models that can fit in the deployment zone.
You get that, right? What if guardsmen lost 39% of their shooting range because shorter guns "look better"?
Your nerdrage sustains me. Please, keep going. I'm almost there.
And by doing so, we lose 39% of the models in combat, models in the kff, models in cover, models that can fit after embarking, and models that can fit in the deployment zone.
You get that, right? What if guardsmen lost 39% of their shooting range because shorter guns "look better"?
Your nerdrage sustains me. Please, keep going. I'm almost there.
Dude.. you're on dakkadakka. We're all nerds...
Also is your comment supposed to sound like a dirty pervert over the phone?
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: I am honestly confused. Every model within an inch of a model who is within an inch of an enemy model is able to attack.
Wouldn't the width of the bases mean that more models to the side would be in range, mitigating the loss of attacks due to base size?
Having a larger base would mean that the buble they project to allow combat would be larger as well...
Packing circles is a really complicated math problem ;
A 25mm base is technically just short of an inch, so people were able to fight four ranks deep with 25mm bases.
I've had mixed feelings about playing that way. It always seemed kind of gamey to me and more like exploiting a technicality than how things were meant to be. On the other hand maybe GW knew exactly what they were doing with the 1" thing and 25mm bases and they very much intended for horde armies to fight four ranks deep. I can't say for sure.
Of course it's not worth getting too worked up about it rules-wise until the codex is actually out.
I mean if I won the lottery but was also stabbed in the shoulder on the same day should I be told I'm not allowed to be angry at the dude who stabbed me? I'd be hyped I won the lottery but also pissed someone stabbed be in the shoulder.
Do you really feel that these base size changes are equivalent to GW trying to physically kill you? I mean, I can get how Orktober can feel like a lottery win compared to the near-complete lack of ork content since 8th launched, but damn. You are taking this way more seriously than I am.
Let me ask it this way, have you ever refused to play a marine player because their tac marines were on 25mm bases? Are there any events near you that have ever enforced such a rule?
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: A 25mm base is technically just short of an inch, so people were able to fight four ranks deep with 25mm bases.
I've had mixed feelings about playing that way. It always seemed kind of gamey to me and more like exploiting a technicality than how things were meant to be. On the other hand maybe GW knew exactly what they were doing with the 1" thing and 25mm bases and they very much intended for horde armies to fight four ranks deep. I can't say for sure.
Of course it's not worth getting too worked up about it rules-wise until the codex is actually out.
You can fight 4 rows of 32s, you just stagger the rows resulting in less possible density then 25s but it is still possible.
mmmm, those 360 pics are nice. I've got one on order, and might get another depending on the bike rules. The buggies I'm already sold on, and those terrain bits will make some nice ork ruins.
I think, though, I might build the dragsta without the spoiler, so it looks more like a war machine and less like a race car. I'm sure the spoiler bits will come in handy elsewhere, as i never build two ork vehicles alike.
Chopstick wrote: GW really love their eye bleeding yellow colored plastic.
As someone who just built Zarbag's Gits(which have that same color plastic), in person? It isn't as strong of a color. It's closer to Tau Ochre than it is Averland Sunset.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: I am honestly confused. Every model within an inch of a model who is within an inch of an enemy model is able to attack.
Wouldn't the width of the bases mean that more models to the side would be in range, mitigating the loss of attacks due to base size?
Having a larger base would mean that the buble they project to allow combat would be larger as well...
Packing circles is a really complicated math problem ;
Particularly if you add things like not having the first row be in a B2B or varied base sizes and interveneing terrain.
I was getting ready to post about the numbers in combat when I went through my math and realized this very thing.
I think that if we charge a unit of 25 or 32 mm infantry, we can still get 4 ranks, if packed perfectly.
I believe if we charge a knight or other near-flat edge there is enough of a gap that the second row can't be within an inch.
If so, we only get 3 rows with 32s on knights (the only thing we need massive numbers of attacks) but 4 if we had 25s.
Against anything there is always the 22% loss of density widthwise (1-25/32)...assuming there are enough orks to always extend and pack fully to the limits of our charge distance. If only allowed 3 rows, we lose 41%.
I mean if I won the lottery but was also stabbed in the shoulder on the same day should I be told I'm not allowed to be angry at the dude who stabbed me? I'd be hyped I won the lottery but also pissed someone stabbed be in the shoulder.
Do you really feel that these base size changes are equivalent to GW trying to physically kill you? I mean, I can get how Orktober can feel like a lottery win compared to the near-complete lack of ork content since 8th launched, but damn. You are taking this way more seriously than I am.
Let me ask it this way, have you ever refused to play a marine player because their tac marines were on 25mm bases? Are there any events near you that have ever enforced such a rule?
Someone can make an analogy without saying the two things being compared are of equal severity.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: A 25mm base is technically just short of an inch, so people were able to fight four ranks deep with 25mm bases.
I've had mixed feelings about playing that way. It always seemed kind of gamey to me and more like exploiting a technicality than how things were meant to be. On the other hand maybe GW knew exactly what they were doing with the 1" thing and 25mm bases and they very much intended for horde armies to fight four ranks deep. I can't say for sure.
Of course it's not worth getting too worked up about it rules-wise until the codex is actually out.
You can fight 4 rows of 32s, you just stagger the rows resulting in less possible density then 25s but it is still possible.
That sounds even worse than the four ranks of 25mm.
I'm going to stick to two ranks, but then again I'm not a tournament player.
(I hope I do not come off as disparaging tournament players or people who are looking for advantages. It is a game after all.)
So. It looks like the buggies are all on one sprue. Knowing this, can GW really justify selling a single sprite kit for over 30-40 USD? The density of these kits makes me think they will be released in twos like the armigers were for 75. That would be a fairly reasonable price point I think. What do you guys think?
nflagey wrote: not completely on-topic but this was on Warhammer - Community:
89. Every time there’s a leak, we push back Codex: Squats by another year.
....lol.
Well, GW, if it makes you feel better, every time there's an Ork leak I get more excited about the release. And more excited about the cool featurettes on the community page.
Gordy2000 wrote: Yep, same price as Tooth and Claw, so that’s confirmed.
Makes you wonder what the price of the new individual buggies is going to be.....
So 120€.
That's a lot for the models you get, to be honest. The board does appear to be of the same make as the Kill Team boards and twice the size, so hopefully that's a big factor in the price. Even so, I can easily see buggies being north of 35€ each.
Gordy2000 wrote: Yep, same price as Tooth and Claw, so that’s confirmed.
Makes you wonder what the price of the new individual buggies is going to be.....
So 120€.
That's a lot for the models you get, to be honest. The board does appear to be of the same make as the Kill Team boards and twice the size, so hopefully that's a big factor in the price. Even so, I can easily see buggies being north of 35€ each.
Yeah, I’m sure the game will be fine, but’s let’s be honest, most people are buying this for the models. On that basis, boxed sets like tooth and claw and Forgebane offered a much better deal. Insert obligatory ‘Orks are always hard done by’ comment here.
Perhaps we are just unlucky with the timing and are simply encountering the latest GW annual price increase.
Having the whole board in there drives up the price I imagine. Not saying it justifies things though, and it is a shame Orks do not have as good a value coming out of this. On the other hand all the contents are for one army rather than two, which cuts out the trade/ebay middle man.
(or T4 for that matter)
