WayneTheGame wrote: Anyone know how many points the Necron boxed army "Tomb Awakened" might be? VERY tempted to look at starting a small force, but want to make sure I'm getting my money's worth since it would be funds taken away from Warmachine. It seems I always go around this when there's something new, and then write it off as lacking in value, rules or both
Around 700 points minimum (stock equipment). I'm unsure about the new CCB cost so I just used the old value.
CCB = 80
Immortals = 2 x 85 = 170
Praetorians = 140.
Stalker = 125
wraiths = 3 x 40 (i think?) = 120
O Lord = 80 points now if i remember correctly.
That's 715 points, but you'd def. want some upgrades e.g. whip coils for wraiths, TL heavy gauss for stalker etc.
Henker-Kind wrote: wow dude, hard to imagine after so many years of using them - do you have an example: the bloodthirster?
Sure. Here's just a little mathhammer on some cc units:
Spoiler:
VS Bloodthirster Let's say the Thirster gets the charge against 20 Flayed Ones (they cost only 10 pts more than a bare-bones Bloodthirster).
Thirster gets 7 attacks, hits with 4.66, wounds with 3.88 and kills 2.06 Flayed Ones (that is counting his instant death on a 6 axe).
18 Flayed Ones attack back with 72 attacks, hit with 24, wound with 7.33 and inflict 2.44 wounds to the Thirster. Let's call that 2 wounds.
Thirster swings back and kills another 2 models (really 1.77). 16 Flayed Ones swing back and deal another 2 wounds (actually 2.17).
Thirster kills 2 (1.77) more and the last 14-15 Flayed Ones easily take his last wound. Bloodthirster loses while only killing 25% of the Flayed Ones.
VS Death Company 10 Death Company vs 15 Flayed Ones (they cost 5 points less than the Death Company).
Again, let's give the Death Company the advantage and say they charged.
Death Company charge in with 50 attacks, hit with 25, wound with 16.66, and kill 4.166 Flayed Ones.
11 Flayed Ones swing back with 44 attacks, hit with 22, wound with 16.5, and kill 3.66 Death Company.
6 Death Company attack first with 18 attacks, hit with 9, wound with 4.5, and kill 1.125 Flayed Ones.
10 Flayed Ones attack back with 40 attacks, hit with 20, wound with 15, and kill 3.33 more Death Company.
3 Death Company attack first with 9 attacks, hit with 4.5, wound with 2.25, and kill 0.5625 Flayed Ones.
9 Flayed Ones attack back with 36 attacks, hit with 18, wound with 13.5 and kill the last 3 Death Company.
The Death Company lose, even when they get the charge, and only killed half the unit.
VS Thunderwolf Cavalry 6 TWC vs 18 Flayed Ones (the Flayed Ones are 6 points cheaper).
6 TWC charge and get 36 attacks, hit with 18, wound with 12, and kill 3 Flayed Ones.
15 Flayed Ones strike back with 60 attacks, hit with 30, wound with 16.66, and deal 5.55 wounds to the TWC (likely killing 3, but let's say they only deal 5 wounds).
4 TWC attack first with 20 attacks, hit with 10, wound with 6.66, and kill 1.66 Flayed Ones.
13 Flayed Ones strike back with 52 attacks, hit with 26, wound with 14.44, and deal 4.8 wounds to the TWC.
1 TWC attacks with 5 attacks, hits with 2.5, wounds with 1.66, and kills 0.41 Flayed Ones.
12-13 Flayed Ones kill the last TWC easily.
VS Meganobz 5 Meganobz vs 15 Flayed Ones (Flayed Ones are 5 pts cheaper).
Meganobz get the charge, but Flayed Ones still go before Power Klaws.
15 Flayed Ones strike first with 60 attacks, hit with 30, wound with 22.5, and deals 3.75 to the Meganobz (I'm going to round up here).
3 Meganobz swing back with 12 attacks, hit with 6, wound with 5, and kills 3.33 Flayed Ones.
12 Flayed Ones attack with 48 attacks, hit with 24, wound with 18, deal 3 more wounds to the Meganobz.
2 Meganobz attack back with 6 attacks, hit with 3, wound with 2.5 and kill 1.66 more Flayed Ones. **Let's assume the Meganobz don't run away on Ld 5-6.**
10 Flayed Ones attack with 40 attacks, hit with 20, wound with 15, and deal 2.5 more wounds to the Meganobz.
1 Meganob attacks back with 3 attacks, hits with 1.5, wounds with 1.25, and kills 0.83 more Flayed Ones. **Let's assume the Meganobz don't run away on Ld 5-6.**
9 Flayed Ones 2.25 more wounds to the Meganob, wiping the unit.
Eyjio wrote: In terms of most improved, that must be flayed ones or Praetorians. They've gone from joke units to formidable murder machines. The best unit is wraiths - they're just so good now, I don't even know what beats them. Can someone mathhammer 6 vs a knight?
Full mathhammer, no but I could certainly roll it out if nothing else.
I5 Wraiths cause one glance.
1 Wraith dies to attack.
No wraiths die to stomp.
No glances or pens from Wraiths.
1 Wraith dies to attack.
No Wraiths die to stomp.
2 pens from Wraiths, one causes an explodes result. 1 on 1d3 so Knight loses 3 HP this turn, 4 total.
1 Wraith dies to attacks.
Wraith takes a wound from stomp.
Wraiths cause 3 pens.
Knight explodes, causing no wounds.
3 Wraiths remain, one wounded. Battle took four player turns.
WayneTheGame wrote: Anyone know how many points the Necron boxed army "Tomb Awakened" might be? VERY tempted to look at starting a small force, but want to make sure I'm getting my money's worth since it would be funds taken away from Warmachine. It seems I always go around this when there's something new, and then write it off as lacking in value, rules or both
Around 700 points minimum (stock equipment). I'm unsure about the new CCB cost so I just used the old value.
So around 750. Okay, good to know. Thanks! I guess bigger question is if it's actually decent; what's put me off of everything thus far is not wanting to buy things and then just lose because it's no good.
Eyjio wrote: In terms of most improved, that must be flayed ones or Praetorians. They've gone from joke units to formidable murder machines. The best unit is wraiths - they're just so good now, I don't even know what beats them. Can someone mathhammer 6 vs a knight?
Full mathhammer, no but I could certainly roll it out if nothing else.
I5 Wraiths cause one glance.
1 Wraith dies to attack.
No wraiths die to stomp.
No glances or pens from Wraiths.
1 Wraith dies to attack.
No Wraiths die to stomp.
2 pens from Wraiths, one causes an explodes result. 1 on 1d3 so Knight loses 3 HP this turn, 4 total.
1 Wraith dies to attacks.
Wraith takes a wound from stomp.
Wraiths cause 3 pens.
Knight explodes, causing no wounds.
3 Wraiths remain, one wounded. Battle took four player turns.
Rending only adds +1D3 to Armor Penetration and it isn't considered VP2 for all Vehicle Damage purposes.
Fail Mathammer is fail
WayneTheGame wrote: Anyone know how many points the Necron boxed army "Tomb Awakened" might be? VERY tempted to look at starting a small force, but want to make sure I'm getting my money's worth since it would be funds taken away from Warmachine. It seems I always go around this when there's something new, and then write it off as lacking in value, rules or both
Around 700 points minimum (stock equipment). I'm unsure about the new CCB cost so I just used the old value.
So around 750. Okay, good to know. Thanks! I guess bigger question is if it's actually decent; what's put me off of everything thus far is not wanting to buy things and then just lose because it's no good.
Immortals are pretty good for MSU troops, and their alternate build as Deathmarks remains good.
Praetorians and Lychguard make for pretty solid assault troops now.
The Triarch Stalker is a cheap walker that buffs nearby shooting units a little.
Henker-Kind wrote: wow dude, hard to imagine after so many years of using them - do you have an example: the bloodthirster?
Sure. Here's just a little mathhammer on some cc units:
Spoiler:
VS Bloodthirster Let's say the Thirster gets the charge against 20 Flayed Ones (they cost only 10 pts more than a bare-bones Bloodthirster).
Thirster gets 7 attacks, hits with 4.66, wounds with 3.88 and kills 2.06 Flayed Ones (that is counting his instant death on a 6 axe).
18 Flayed Ones attack back with 72 attacks, hit with 24, wound with 7.33 and inflict 2.44 wounds to the Thirster. Let's call that 2 wounds.
Thirster swings back and kills another 2 models (really 1.77). 16 Flayed Ones swing back and deal another 2 wounds (actually 2.17).
Thirster kills 2 (1.77) more and the last 14-15 Flayed Ones easily take his last wound. Bloodthirster loses while only killing 25% of the Flayed Ones.
VS Death Company 10 Death Company vs 15 Flayed Ones (they cost 5 points less than the Death Company).
Again, let's give the Death Company the advantage and say they charged.
Death Company charge in with 50 attacks, hit with 25, wound with 16.66, and kill 4.166 Flayed Ones.
11 Flayed Ones swing back with 44 attacks, hit with 22, wound with 16.5, and kill 3.66 Death Company.
6 Death Company attack first with 18 attacks, hit with 9, wound with 4.5, and kill 1.125 Flayed Ones.
10 Flayed Ones attack back with 40 attacks, hit with 20, wound with 15, and kill 3.33 more Death Company.
3 Death Company attack first with 9 attacks, hit with 4.5, wound with 2.25, and kill 0.5625 Flayed Ones.
9 Flayed Ones attack back with 36 attacks, hit with 18, wound with 13.5 and kill the last 3 Death Company.
The Death Company lose, even when they get the charge, and only killed half the unit.
VS Thunderwolf Cavalry 6 TWC vs 18 Flayed Ones (the Flayed Ones are 6 points cheaper).
6 TWC charge and get 36 attacks, hit with 18, wound with 12, and kill 3 Flayed Ones.
15 Flayed Ones strike back with 60 attacks, hit with 30, wound with 16.66, and deal 5.55 wounds to the TWC (likely killing 3, but let's say they only deal 5 wounds).
4 TWC attack first with 20 attacks, hit with 10, wound with 6.66, and kill 1.66 Flayed Ones.
13 Flayed Ones strike back with 52 attacks, hit with 26, wound with 14.44, and deal 4.8 wounds to the TWC.
1 TWC attacks with 5 attacks, hits with 2.5, wounds with 1.66, and kills 0.41 Flayed Ones.
12-13 Flayed Ones kill the last TWC easily.
VS Meganobz 5 Meganobz vs 15 Flayed Ones (Flayed Ones are 5 pts cheaper).
Meganobz get the charge, but Flayed Ones still go before Power Klaws.
15 Flayed Ones strike first with 60 attacks, hit with 30, wound with 22.5, and deals 3.75 to the Meganobz (I'm going to round up here).
3 Meganobz swing back with 12 attacks, hit with 6, wound with 5, and kills 3.33 Flayed Ones.
12 Flayed Ones attack with 48 attacks, hit with 24, wound with 18, deal 3 more wounds to the Meganobz.
2 Meganobz attack back with 6 attacks, hit with 3, wound with 2.5 and kill 1.66 more Flayed Ones. **Let's assume the Meganobz don't run away on Ld 5-6.**
10 Flayed Ones attack with 40 attacks, hit with 20, wound with 15, and deal 2.5 more wounds to the Meganobz.
1 Meganob attacks back with 3 attacks, hits with 1.5, wounds with 1.25, and kills 0.83 more Flayed Ones. **Let's assume the Meganobz don't run away on Ld 5-6.**
9 Flayed Ones 2.25 more wounds to the Meganob, wiping the unit.
Hey man, was that using the default 5+ RP (and 6+ for the P.Fists) or using the Decurion bonus?
Sorry, I should have mentioned that. All of the mathhammer was using the Decurion bonus. I also realize that I forgot to include minor stuff like Hammer of Wrath, but it wouldn't have made any difference to the results.
WayneTheGame wrote: Anyone know how many points the Necron boxed army "Tomb Awakened" might be? VERY tempted to look at starting a small force, but want to make sure I'm getting my money's worth since it would be funds taken away from Warmachine. It seems I always go around this when there's something new, and then write it off as lacking in value, rules or both
Around 700 points minimum (stock equipment). I'm unsure about the new CCB cost so I just used the old value.
So around 750. Okay, good to know. Thanks! I guess bigger question is if it's actually decent; what's put me off of everything thus far is not wanting to buy things and then just lose because it's no good.
Edited the last post, so might be more like 765.
I think the Tomb Awakened box would be a pretty decent start. Praetorians are pretty usefull now, wraiths are even better, Stalker is probably better AND cheaper, Lord and Barge I'm a bit uncertain about, and Immortals got somewhat sidegraded (tesla nerf, but gauss boost). If you want to use the decurion formation, I'd call it a pretty good start - you've got some of what's needed for the reclamation legion as well as the judicator battalion and canoptek harvest.
Seems like it's the best box for the buck. The Canoptek crawler one looks pretty great too, but 9 wraiths might just be 3 too many in some cases.
Oh yeah, and as mentioned above, keep in mind that Praetorians can be assembled as Lychguard, Immortals as Deathmarks, and CCB as AB. That, of course changes things point-wise, but gives some room to fit the models into what list you want to create.
Another request for mathhammer. Which is more durable for the cost:
10 Warriors coming out of a Nightscythe to hold objectives or 5 immortals coming out of a Nightscythe to hold objectives?
I'd imagine that there won't be a cryptek in either of those groups... you'll want them with other units.
Siphen wrote: Sorry, I should have mentioned that. All of the mathhammer was using the Decurion bonus. I also realize that I forgot to include minor stuff like Hammer of Wrath, but it wouldn't have made any difference to the results.
Siphen wrote: Sorry, I should have mentioned that. All of the mathhammer was using the Decurion bonus. I also realize that I forgot to include minor stuff like Hammer of Wrath, but it wouldn't have made any difference to the results.
Siphen wrote: Sorry, I should have mentioned that. All of the mathhammer was using the Decurion bonus. I also realize that I forgot to include minor stuff like Hammer of Wrath, but it wouldn't have made any difference to the results.
Jaq Draco lives wrote: So is the Tomb Blade the clear winner for most buffed unit do we think?
*If* what I've heard is true, Triarch Praetorians might be deserving of that.
I mean, so far I've heard that they're:
- Markedly cheaper (similar reduction to Lychguard)
- Have 2 attacks base
- Their AP2 shooting attack has twice the range
Assuming that's all true, they're sounding really good. And, unlike Lychguard, they don't require a delivery mechanism.
Guys, BE VERY CAREFUL; many are taking assumptions, and they very quickly are becoming "so yeah, that is the way it is...".
for example - there IS a heavy destroyer choice, its 1 heavy destroyer for 50 points, and you can add up to two more at 50 points each. It was posted last night on the spanish site, as were THE RULES FOR ALMOST EVERY SINGLE UNIT.
The only things we are missing at this point are;
1 - the list of war gear costs by specific classification; exactly what is a 'ranged weapon", "melee weapon", "technoarcana" and "aretefacts of the aeosn" that can be purchased by character. YES, we know some specific units can buy a nebulascope, or shield, but we don't know what are on those specific purchase lists.
2 - a screen shot showing that the decurion gives +1 res to the entire army. this is in contradiction to every other rumor we have had which said its only 12" away.
3 - Screen shots of the IC's.
Finally, after reading the actual rules (posted here, and on other sites) regarding the ctan wargear "can be used as a ranged weapon..." is the actual text. It does not say "has two ranged weapons" which is what it would need to be to fire twice. A riptide can't fire its ion accelerator twice, a tryannofex can't fire his rupture cannon twice. Sadly, unless somewhere it says "the Powers of the Ctan counts as two weapons" its just wishful thinking.
Be very careful of rationalization and bias in wish-listing.
Half my Scarabs are painted mostly silver, the other half mostly Khorne red to act as Charnel Scarabs.
Would any of you be annoyed if I were playing you and asked to run the red ones as a Flayed One blob?
Height makes a pretty big difference when it comes to LoS. If you were just testing them out, I wouldn't have a problem. If it's a more serious game, or a tourny, then absolutely not.
Jaq Draco lives wrote: So is the Tomb Blade the clear winner for most buffed unit do we think?
*If* what I've heard is true, Triarch Praetorians might be deserving of that.
I mean, so far I've heard that they're:
- Markedly cheaper (similar reduction to Lychguard)
- Have 2 attacks base
- Their AP2 shooting attack has twice the range
Assuming that's all true, they're sounding really good. And, unlike Lychguard, they don't require a delivery mechanism.
I have the screenshots for that, and can confirm all of this. In addition, their Melee weapon is no longer unweildly.
Hang on, were Gauss/Tesla Cannons classed as heavy weapons in the last book?
Because according to that photo we had of the weapon profiles, they are heavy in the upcoming codex.
Spoiler:
How would this affect Destroyers?
Would they be able to move and fire normally?
With them becoming Jetpack, the ability to to jump-shoot-jump would be pretty paramount. If their only weapon choices now have to take movement in to account when firing...
skoffs wrote: Hang on, were Gauss/Tesla Cannons classed as heavy weapons in the last book?
Because according to that photo we had of the weapon profiles, they are heavy in the upcoming codex.
How would this affect Destroyers?
Would they be able to move and fire normally?
With them becoming Jetpack, the ability to to jump-shoot-jump would be pretty paramount. If their only weapon choices now have to take movement in to account when firing...
skoffs wrote: Hang on, were Gauss/Tesla Cannons classed as heavy weapons in the last book?
Because according to that photo we had of the weapon profiles, they are heavy in the upcoming codex.
How would this affect Destroyers?
Would they be able to move and fire normally?
With them becoming Jetpack, the ability to to jump-shoot-jump would be pretty paramount. If their only weapon choices now have to take movement in to account when firing...
skoffs wrote: Hang on, were Gauss/Tesla Cannons classed as heavy weapons in the last book?
Because according to that photo we had of the weapon profiles, they are heavy in the upcoming codex.
How would this affect Destroyers?
Would they be able to move and fire normally?
With them becoming Jetpack, the ability to to jump-shoot-jump would be pretty paramount. If their only weapon choices now have to take movement in to account when firing...
Jetpacks are relentless i think so it doesnt matter
Half my Scarabs are painted mostly silver, the other half mostly Khorne red to act as Charnel Scarabs.
Would any of you be annoyed if I were playing you and asked to run the red ones as a Flayed One blob?
Height makes a pretty big difference when it comes to LoS. If you were just testing them out, I wouldn't have a problem. If it's a more serious game, or a tourny, then absolutely not.
Well, I have zero interest in tournaments. They sound like thoroughly unpleasant playing environments with everyone doing spam lists and so on.
As for height, I have a few of them, three to be exact, modelled as swarming over other models for unit variety. A marine, a broodlord and a sorcerer, so I could definitely shuffle those ones around to establish height if in deep cover and causing a problem there.
The real issue I'm concerned with is the base size issue. There's a lot of random pros and cons to changing a horde unit to a larger base size.
RivenSkull wrote: I think this got lost in the back, and I never got an answer
Question about Voidblades.
It has both Rending and Entropic Strike. Both of those for the most part are the exact same thing, automatically causing a wound on a 6.
Would that mean that they cause 2 wounds automatically on a 6? If it does, that might make Praetorians MC killers.
I wouldn't think so. I mean you've only rolled one To Wound roll and while both rules say you've automatically wounded, I don't really think it doubles up.
Saying that'd I'd expect to auto wound and have it count as AP2.
What's interesting is that you automatically glance and then receive D3 extra pen...
EDIT:
I'm an idiot, Entropic Strike specifically states "if they wouldn't penetrate" in relation to the auto glance. So I guess you'd roll the extra D3 from Rending, then check to see if you Pen, if not you glance anyway.
skoffs wrote: Relentless Destroyers.
Excellent.
Now if only they'd been allowed to choose between more than two weapons to take...
My plan is to hide and jump Heavy Destroyers around a Stalker, that gives the Stalker some protection, it gives the H. Destroyers protection and it gives them BS5 with PE.
Jaq Draco lives wrote: So is the Tomb Blade the clear winner for most buffed unit do we think?
*If* what I've heard is true, Triarch Praetorians might be deserving of that.
I mean, so far I've heard that they're:
- Markedly cheaper (similar reduction to Lychguard)
- Have 2 attacks base
- Their AP2 shooting attack has twice the range
Assuming that's all true, they're sounding really good. And, unlike Lychguard, they don't require a delivery mechanism.
I have the screenshots for that, and can confirm all of this. In addition, their Melee weapon is no longer unweildly.
Awsome. Do you know how much their cost has gone down by?
Jaq Draco lives wrote: So is the Tomb Blade the clear winner for most buffed unit do we think?
*If* what I've heard is true, Triarch Praetorians might be deserving of that.
I mean, so far I've heard that they're:
- Markedly cheaper (similar reduction to Lychguard)
- Have 2 attacks base
- Their AP2 shooting attack has twice the range
Assuming that's all true, they're sounding really good. And, unlike Lychguard, they don't require a delivery mechanism.
I have the screenshots for that, and can confirm all of this. In addition, their Melee weapon is no longer unweildly.
Awsome. Do you know how much their cost has gone down by?
Opps Ninja'd
I think it's 140 for 5 now. So 28 ppm. 12pt drop from the last codex
Man this is going to be really hard to resist, I think. Some of this actually looks priced decently (with 20% discount from The Warstore factored in, of course).
Decurion with the Justicar Battalion thing sounds solid. The Justicar Battalion marks a unit for death and that unit goes boom. All shots being TL and re-roll wounding/penning hits is insane. And with the boost to the praetorians they aren't dead points for a tax for it.
Hulksmash wrote: Decurion with the Justicar Battalion thing sounds solid. The Justicar Battalion marks a unit for death and that unit goes boom. All shots being TL and re-roll wounding/penning hits is insane. And with the boost to the praetorians they aren't dead points for a tax for it.
Yep, and you can do this every turn as long as the Triarch Stalker(s) is Alive!
Hulksmash wrote: Decurion with the Justicar Battalion thing sounds solid. The Justicar Battalion marks a unit for death and that unit goes boom. All shots being TL and re-roll wounding/penning hits is insane. And with the boost to the praetorians they aren't dead points for a tax for it.
Was it confirmed if that was a one use only or ever turn?
WayneTheGame wrote: Man this is going to be really hard to resist, I think. Some of this actually looks priced decently (with 20% discount from The Warstore factored in, of course).
I couldn't resist them.
Bought cards, codex and the new Overlord.
So I could either take:
-7 euro shipping.
-Praetorians for 20 and no shipping.
Which in my head translated as Praetorians for 13..
WayneTheGame wrote: Man this is going to be really hard to resist, I think. Some of this actually looks priced decently (with 20% discount from The Warstore factored in, of course).
I couldn't resist them. Bought cards, codex and the new Overlord. So I could either take: -7 euro shipping. -Praetorians for 20 and no shipping.
Which in my head translated as Praetorians for 13..
Well I've resisted for around a year now (started Warmachine in the meantime) and went 12 years without playing but part of me wants to just eat the money, buy the codex and the army box and try them out in small games. Worse comes to worse I put some Warmachine purchases on the back burner for another month, best case I might *gasp!* actually enjoy playing 40k. I won't know until I try it again.
I think I'm going to need 3 boxes of tombblades to run a Decursion detachment. Then I'll have the core with three msu tombblades units, and two of the Canoptek detachments.
Did anyone else notice that scarb unit size scarabs went from 3-10 down to 3-9 for apparently no reason?
WayneTheGame wrote: Man this is going to be really hard to resist, I think. Some of this actually looks priced decently (with 20% discount from The Warstore factored in, of course).
I couldn't resist them.
Bought cards, codex and the new Overlord.
So I could either take:
-7 euro shipping.
-Praetorians for 20 and no shipping.
Which in my head translated as Praetorians for 13..
Well I've resisted for around a year now (started Warmachine in the meantime) and went 12 years without playing but part of me wants to just eat the money, buy the codex and the army box and try them out in small games. Worse comes to worse I put some Warmachine purchases on the back burner for another month, best case I might *gasp!* actually enjoy playing 40k. I won't know until I try it again.
I think that this will be a very fun codex.
The Tomb Awakens plus one of the Battleforce boxes would be a great starter army.
Henker-Kind wrote: wow dude, hard to imagine after so many years of using them - do you have an example: the bloodthirster?
Sure. Here's just a little mathhammer on some cc units:
Spoiler:
VS Bloodthirster Let's say the Thirster gets the charge against 20 Flayed Ones (they cost only 10 pts more than a bare-bones Bloodthirster).
Thirster gets 7 attacks, hits with 4.66, wounds with 3.88 and kills 2.06 Flayed Ones (that is counting his instant death on a 6 axe).
18 Flayed Ones attack back with 72 attacks, hit with 24, wound with 7.33 and inflict 2.44 wounds to the Thirster. Let's call that 2 wounds.
Thirster swings back and kills another 2 models (really 1.77). 16 Flayed Ones swing back and deal another 2 wounds (actually 2.17).
Thirster kills 2 (1.77) more and the last 14-15 Flayed Ones easily take his last wound. Bloodthirster loses while only killing 25% of the Flayed Ones.
VS Death Company 10 Death Company vs 15 Flayed Ones (they cost 5 points less than the Death Company).
Again, let's give the Death Company the advantage and say they charged.
Death Company charge in with 50 attacks, hit with 25, wound with 16.66, and kill 4.166 Flayed Ones.
11 Flayed Ones swing back with 44 attacks, hit with 22, wound with 16.5, and kill 3.66 Death Company.
6 Death Company attack first with 18 attacks, hit with 9, wound with 4.5, and kill 1.125 Flayed Ones.
10 Flayed Ones attack back with 40 attacks, hit with 20, wound with 15, and kill 3.33 more Death Company.
3 Death Company attack first with 9 attacks, hit with 4.5, wound with 2.25, and kill 0.5625 Flayed Ones.
9 Flayed Ones attack back with 36 attacks, hit with 18, wound with 13.5 and kill the last 3 Death Company.
The Death Company lose, even when they get the charge, and only killed half the unit.
VS Thunderwolf Cavalry 6 TWC vs 18 Flayed Ones (the Flayed Ones are 6 points cheaper).
6 TWC charge and get 36 attacks, hit with 18, wound with 12, and kill 3 Flayed Ones.
15 Flayed Ones strike back with 60 attacks, hit with 30, wound with 16.66, and deal 5.55 wounds to the TWC (likely killing 3, but let's say they only deal 5 wounds).
4 TWC attack first with 20 attacks, hit with 10, wound with 6.66, and kill 1.66 Flayed Ones.
13 Flayed Ones strike back with 52 attacks, hit with 26, wound with 14.44, and deal 4.8 wounds to the TWC.
1 TWC attacks with 5 attacks, hits with 2.5, wounds with 1.66, and kills 0.41 Flayed Ones.
12-13 Flayed Ones kill the last TWC easily.
VS Meganobz 5 Meganobz vs 15 Flayed Ones (Flayed Ones are 5 pts cheaper).
Meganobz get the charge, but Flayed Ones still go before Power Klaws.
15 Flayed Ones strike first with 60 attacks, hit with 30, wound with 22.5, and deals 3.75 to the Meganobz (I'm going to round up here).
3 Meganobz swing back with 12 attacks, hit with 6, wound with 5, and kills 3.33 Flayed Ones.
12 Flayed Ones attack with 48 attacks, hit with 24, wound with 18, deal 3 more wounds to the Meganobz.
2 Meganobz attack back with 6 attacks, hit with 3, wound with 2.5 and kill 1.66 more Flayed Ones. **Let's assume the Meganobz don't run away on Ld 5-6.**
10 Flayed Ones attack with 40 attacks, hit with 20, wound with 15, and deal 2.5 more wounds to the Meganobz.
1 Meganob attacks back with 3 attacks, hits with 1.5, wounds with 1.25, and kills 0.83 more Flayed Ones. **Let's assume the Meganobz don't run away on Ld 5-6.**
9 Flayed Ones 2.25 more wounds to the Meganob, wiping the unit.
2 flaws with your math.
1. You look to be giving the FO 4+ RP for some reason.
2. With multi wound units, they can spread the wounds around the unit, meaning you seriously cheated the meganobs and TWC combats a bit.
Either way though your right, FO are and tomb blades are the big winners of the new book.
I can't fathom how GW thought with a 17 ppm immortal, that 18ppm tomb blades who carry a tl version of the same weapon T5 and a jetbike was reasonable
By the way - a great boost to Overlords in this book. Buying Artifacts and Melee weapons does not replace your Staff of Light. So an Overlord with the Relic Flamer and a Warscythe still has a Staff of Light, so he has shooting power, a one turn killy Flamer, and Assault power. Beautiful.
Combos that I'm thinking about right now:
As everyone else has said: Stalkers + Destroyers. BS5 rerolling 1s on good shooting units is amazing. Even throwing in some Praetorians for the Triarch Formation isn't bad anymore, they're pretty good beatsticks in Assault and the increase in their range is quite a powerful boost.
Flayed Ones in a Decurion with an Overlord attached. Overlord takes a Warscythe and the Solar Staff, giving them Invisibility for a turn and also brings his own Assault power. Attaching a Cryptek for the 5++ against shooting would be gravy, but starts to push expensive.
Living Tomb Formation + Praetorians or Wraiths. A very strong Turn 2 Alpha Strike - as long as the Obelisk doesn't mishap (carefully...) the Monoliths have a big bubble of no-scatter Deep Strike. And then you unload the squad of Praetorians/Wraiths, which both have AP2 shooting and can do scary assaults on turn 3. If this block doesn't make your opponent scared when it comes in, he's crazy. Take Zahndrekh if you can - then you can guarantee having the +1 to Reserve rolls to ensure the Monoliths come in. (Or I guess take a Comms Relay, but come on, who does that?)
Mephrit Dynasty Resurgence Phalanx (the Formation from WD 47) + CAD Necrons. CAD brings 2 Crypteks with Chronometrons, 2 Warrior Squads in Ghost Arks. The Formation takes full 20 man squads of Warriors (whatever Immortals , you're not important in this one). Those 20 man Warrior Squads have 4+/5++/4+++ with the attached Crypteks, there are 2 Ghost Arks that can add d3 Warriors back, and the Formation Monolith adds d6 Warriors back. Good luck killing those Warriors off the board!
Living Tomb wouldn't be able to be used with Wraiths... it can only use infantry or Jump infantry. Wraiths are now beasts.
But... hells yes, if I had the big models.
I can't fathom how GW thought with a 17 ppm immortal, that 18ppm tomb blades who carry a tl version of the same weapon T5 and a jetbike was reasonable
Immortals can be transported, Tomb Blades can not
Immortals can be repaired, with the right detachment, Tomb Blades can not
Immortals can be joined by Crypteks, Tomb Blades can not
Most impotantly, Bikes cost about twice as much in real money, and didn't sell as well
skoffs wrote: Relentless Destroyers.
Excellent.
Now if only they'd been allowed to choose between more than two weapons to take...
Destroyers are overpriced, far from being excellent.
Overpriced? 40 points for T5 W2 Jet Packs with FNP (and FNP 4+ in certain situations) packing S5 AP3 guns at 24" is pretty reasonable I think.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anpu-adom wrote: Living Tomb wouldn't be able to be used with Wraiths... it can only use infantry or Jump infantry. Wraiths are now beasts.
But... hells yes, if I had the big models.
Ah crap, keep forgetting :\
Oh well, still works well with Praetorians. Or a big ass squad of Warriors and Cryptek.
Kangodo wrote: I'm still laughing when I heard GW actually expects me to Deep Strike an Obelisk.
I dunno, even though it doesn't reduce scatter it's only about slightly bigger than a Drop Pod. Find the most open terrain you can, it doesn't have to be close to what you want to DS on. Then you can put a Monolith 12" closer, and then the disembarked squad 6" closer out of that. That doesn't seem too unreasonable.
In and uncorrected deepstrike, you have a 90% confidence that it will move less than 7 inches. That means that if there is an area that is about 1 foot by 1 foot, the Obelisk should have no problem landing in it.
Then you can squeeze your monoliths in any little place that they will fit within 12 inches.... and disembark 6 inches, charge and average of 7. Assuming a mid-board placement, you have a charge threat 2.5 feet from the Obelisk.
Who knew that Necrons would go from a shooty based army to one that has so much assault potential?
skoffs wrote: Relentless Destroyers.
Excellent.
Now if only they'd been allowed to choose between more than two weapons to take...
Destroyers are overpriced, far from being excellent.
Overpriced? 40 points for T5 W2 Jet Packs with FNP (and FNP 4+ in certain situations) packing S5 AP3 guns at 24" is pretty reasonable I think.
Yeah, before they were overpriced at 1W. Now that they have 2w 40 ppm is much fairer.
Not to mention that new RP increases that survivability further. Previously, 5 AP3 shots was all it took to wipe the squad. Now, not only do they have double wounds, but they also have 5+ or even 4+ saves against AP3 or better weapons. They're extremely hard to kill off now imo.
I can't fathom how GW thought with a 17 ppm immortal, that 18ppm tomb blades who carry a tl version of the same weapon T5 and a jetbike was reasonable
Immortals can be transported, Tomb Blades can not
Immortals can be repaired, with the right detachment, Tomb Blades can not
Immortals can be joined by Crypteks, Tomb Blades can not
Most impotantly, Bikes cost about twice as much in real money, and didn't sell as well
Are you seriously trying to argue that a tomb blade is reasonably cost?
It's windrider jetbikes all over again.
PS I literally chuckled when you mentioned a transport. I know when I have a choice between my marine bikers and a tac squad it's always that rhino or razorB that makes them seem even
10 immortals in a NS=300
10 TB with a 3+ save and Ignores cover=220
While the immortals are mobile they aren't contributing either, and can only hop out once and not get back in.
Besides the point isn't why take A over B, it's OMG how on earth can they rationalize that PPM on something thats more mobile, lethal and durable stock. If you can't see that then I can't help you.
Henker-Kind wrote: wow dude, hard to imagine after so many years of using them - do you have an example: the bloodthirster?
Sure. Here's just a little mathhammer on some cc units:
Spoiler:
VS Bloodthirster Let's say the Thirster gets the charge against 20 Flayed Ones (they cost only 10 pts more than a bare-bones Bloodthirster).
Thirster gets 7 attacks, hits with 4.66, wounds with 3.88 and kills 2.06 Flayed Ones (that is counting his instant death on a 6 axe).
18 Flayed Ones attack back with 72 attacks, hit with 24, wound with 7.33 and inflict 2.44 wounds to the Thirster. Let's call that 2 wounds.
Thirster swings back and kills another 2 models (really 1.77). 16 Flayed Ones swing back and deal another 2 wounds (actually 2.17).
Thirster kills 2 (1.77) more and the last 14-15 Flayed Ones easily take his last wound. Bloodthirster loses while only killing 25% of the Flayed Ones.
VS Death Company 10 Death Company vs 15 Flayed Ones (they cost 5 points less than the Death Company).
Again, let's give the Death Company the advantage and say they charged.
Death Company charge in with 50 attacks, hit with 25, wound with 16.66, and kill 4.166 Flayed Ones.
11 Flayed Ones swing back with 44 attacks, hit with 22, wound with 16.5, and kill 3.66 Death Company.
6 Death Company attack first with 18 attacks, hit with 9, wound with 4.5, and kill 1.125 Flayed Ones.
10 Flayed Ones attack back with 40 attacks, hit with 20, wound with 15, and kill 3.33 more Death Company.
3 Death Company attack first with 9 attacks, hit with 4.5, wound with 2.25, and kill 0.5625 Flayed Ones.
9 Flayed Ones attack back with 36 attacks, hit with 18, wound with 13.5 and kill the last 3 Death Company.
The Death Company lose, even when they get the charge, and only killed half the unit.
VS Thunderwolf Cavalry 6 TWC vs 18 Flayed Ones (the Flayed Ones are 6 points cheaper).
6 TWC charge and get 36 attacks, hit with 18, wound with 12, and kill 3 Flayed Ones.
15 Flayed Ones strike back with 60 attacks, hit with 30, wound with 16.66, and deal 5.55 wounds to the TWC (likely killing 3, but let's say they only deal 5 wounds).
4 TWC attack first with 20 attacks, hit with 10, wound with 6.66, and kill 1.66 Flayed Ones.
13 Flayed Ones strike back with 52 attacks, hit with 26, wound with 14.44, and deal 4.8 wounds to the TWC.
1 TWC attacks with 5 attacks, hits with 2.5, wounds with 1.66, and kills 0.41 Flayed Ones.
12-13 Flayed Ones kill the last TWC easily.
VS Meganobz 5 Meganobz vs 15 Flayed Ones (Flayed Ones are 5 pts cheaper).
Meganobz get the charge, but Flayed Ones still go before Power Klaws.
15 Flayed Ones strike first with 60 attacks, hit with 30, wound with 22.5, and deals 3.75 to the Meganobz (I'm going to round up here).
3 Meganobz swing back with 12 attacks, hit with 6, wound with 5, and kills 3.33 Flayed Ones.
12 Flayed Ones attack with 48 attacks, hit with 24, wound with 18, deal 3 more wounds to the Meganobz.
2 Meganobz attack back with 6 attacks, hit with 3, wound with 2.5 and kill 1.66 more Flayed Ones. **Let's assume the Meganobz don't run away on Ld 5-6.**
10 Flayed Ones attack with 40 attacks, hit with 20, wound with 15, and deal 2.5 more wounds to the Meganobz.
1 Meganob attacks back with 3 attacks, hits with 1.5, wounds with 1.25, and kills 0.83 more Flayed Ones. **Let's assume the Meganobz don't run away on Ld 5-6.**
9 Flayed Ones 2.25 more wounds to the Meganob, wiping the unit.
Thak you man!
But do flayed ones have base 3 attacks - at least the guy from tyrant hive said so - idrk!
Henker-Kind wrote: wow dude, hard to imagine after so many years of using them - do you have an example: the bloodthirster?
Sure. Here's just a little mathhammer on some cc units:
Spoiler:
VS Bloodthirster Let's say the Thirster gets the charge against 20 Flayed Ones (they cost only 10 pts more than a bare-bones Bloodthirster).
Thirster gets 7 attacks, hits with 4.66, wounds with 3.88 and kills 2.06 Flayed Ones (that is counting his instant death on a 6 axe).
18 Flayed Ones attack back with 72 attacks, hit with 24, wound with 7.33 and inflict 2.44 wounds to the Thirster. Let's call that 2 wounds.
Thirster swings back and kills another 2 models (really 1.77). 16 Flayed Ones swing back and deal another 2 wounds (actually 2.17).
Thirster kills 2 (1.77) more and the last 14-15 Flayed Ones easily take his last wound. Bloodthirster loses while only killing 25% of the Flayed Ones.
VS Death Company 10 Death Company vs 15 Flayed Ones (they cost 5 points less than the Death Company).
Again, let's give the Death Company the advantage and say they charged.
Death Company charge in with 50 attacks, hit with 25, wound with 16.66, and kill 4.166 Flayed Ones.
11 Flayed Ones swing back with 44 attacks, hit with 22, wound with 16.5, and kill 3.66 Death Company.
6 Death Company attack first with 18 attacks, hit with 9, wound with 4.5, and kill 1.125 Flayed Ones.
10 Flayed Ones attack back with 40 attacks, hit with 20, wound with 15, and kill 3.33 more Death Company.
3 Death Company attack first with 9 attacks, hit with 4.5, wound with 2.25, and kill 0.5625 Flayed Ones.
9 Flayed Ones attack back with 36 attacks, hit with 18, wound with 13.5 and kill the last 3 Death Company.
The Death Company lose, even when they get the charge, and only killed half the unit.
VS Thunderwolf Cavalry 6 TWC vs 18 Flayed Ones (the Flayed Ones are 6 points cheaper).
6 TWC charge and get 36 attacks, hit with 18, wound with 12, and kill 3 Flayed Ones.
15 Flayed Ones strike back with 60 attacks, hit with 30, wound with 16.66, and deal 5.55 wounds to the TWC (likely killing 3, but let's say they only deal 5 wounds).
4 TWC attack first with 20 attacks, hit with 10, wound with 6.66, and kill 1.66 Flayed Ones.
13 Flayed Ones strike back with 52 attacks, hit with 26, wound with 14.44, and deal 4.8 wounds to the TWC.
1 TWC attacks with 5 attacks, hits with 2.5, wounds with 1.66, and kills 0.41 Flayed Ones.
12-13 Flayed Ones kill the last TWC easily.
VS Meganobz 5 Meganobz vs 15 Flayed Ones (Flayed Ones are 5 pts cheaper).
Meganobz get the charge, but Flayed Ones still go before Power Klaws.
15 Flayed Ones strike first with 60 attacks, hit with 30, wound with 22.5, and deals 3.75 to the Meganobz (I'm going to round up here).
3 Meganobz swing back with 12 attacks, hit with 6, wound with 5, and kills 3.33 Flayed Ones.
12 Flayed Ones attack with 48 attacks, hit with 24, wound with 18, deal 3 more wounds to the Meganobz.
2 Meganobz attack back with 6 attacks, hit with 3, wound with 2.5 and kill 1.66 more Flayed Ones. **Let's assume the Meganobz don't run away on Ld 5-6.**
10 Flayed Ones attack with 40 attacks, hit with 20, wound with 15, and deal 2.5 more wounds to the Meganobz.
1 Meganob attacks back with 3 attacks, hits with 1.5, wounds with 1.25, and kills 0.83 more Flayed Ones. **Let's assume the Meganobz don't run away on Ld 5-6.**
9 Flayed Ones 2.25 more wounds to the Meganob, wiping the unit.
Thak you man!
But do flayed ones have base 3 attacks - at least the guy from tyrant hive said so - idrk!
They have 3 base and 2 Flayer Claws, from a picture. So yes, 4 attacks base, 5 on the charge, with Shred. They're extremely more killy now.
Half my Scarabs are painted mostly silver, the other half mostly Khorne red to act as Charnel Scarabs.
Would any of you be annoyed if I were playing you and asked to run the red ones as a Flayed One blob?
Height makes a pretty big difference when it comes to LoS. If you were just testing them out, I wouldn't have a problem. If it's a more serious game, or a tourny, then absolutely not.
Well, I have zero interest in tournaments. They sound like thoroughly unpleasant playing environments with everyone doing spam lists and so on.
As for height, I have a few of them, three to be exact, modelled as swarming over other models for unit variety. A marine, a broodlord and a sorcerer, so I could definitely shuffle those ones around to establish height if in deep cover and causing a problem there.
The real issue I'm concerned with is the base size issue. There's a lot of random pros and cons to changing a horde unit to a larger base size.
Hey i would seriously concider for your own fun get some old metal flayed ones or convert warriors - there are nice videos - otherwise it would make LOS diffcult, base size that would be no real fun I think even for you,
bye!
Wraith formation.
1 Wraith Squad.
1 Scarab unit
1 Spyder.
start of movement phase: you can choose to give all units fleet, reanimation protocols or shred, they get the buff as long they're within 12" of the spyder.
Hi. 3++/4FnP(+1 Rp from Reformation Legion) 2W T5 Wraiths at i5. (Mainly to endure first two turn of shooting)
In an edition where it SEEMED they were trying to tone down the power and cheeze, all I can see are really strong units and combinations here. Seriously the necrons made a big gain over their last codex, when everyone else was expecting to be brought in line. I have no idea what GW thinks is game balance, but I no longer look forward to tau and eldar revisions, because this codex will still be in game. I think ill try picking this game up again in 8th edition. What they did to half the codex in this game in the last two years is just wrong.
Wraith formation.
1 Wraith Squad.
1 Scarab unit
1 Spyder.
start of movement phase: you can choose to give all units fleet, reanimation protocols or shred, they get the buff as long they're within 12" of the spyder.
Hi. 3++/4FnP(+1 Rp from Reformation Legion) 2W T5 Wraiths at i5. (Mainly to endure first two turn of shooting)
Yeah, but you have to keep them within 12" of the Spyder. Which is easy in the first couple turns, but eventually the Spyder's 6" move will fall behind the Wraiths. We'll see, though.
Wraith formation.
1 Wraith Squad.
1 Scarab unit
1 Spyder.
start of movement phase: you can choose to give all units fleet, reanimation protocols or shred, they get the buff as long they're within 12" of the spyder.
Hi. 3++/4FnP(+1 Rp from Reformation Legion) 2W T5 Wraiths at i5. (Mainly to endure first two turn of shooting)
Yeah, but you have to keep them within 12" of the Spyder. Which is easy in the first couple turns, but eventually the Spyder's 6" move will fall behind the Wraiths. We'll see, though.
that's fine though, the spyders and scarab can go scoring, and you will have very healthy wraiths hitting the opponent's lines.
Flayed Ones in a Decurion with an Overlord attached. Overlord takes a Warscythe and the Solar Staff, giving them Invisibility for a turn and also brings his own Assault power. Attaching a Cryptek for the 5++ against shooting would be gravy, but starts to push expensive.
If you do this, you lose the Flayed Ones ability to infiltrate (or deepstrike, they have both don't they?), so they are slogging it across the board. I think Flayed Ones are going to remain best on their own, infiltrating with maxed sized units. They'll either draw all of the enemies fire, and still have enough models to go in and disrupt your opponent's backfield (but likely won't dominate), or your opponent will counter charge with his own CC unit, which a maxed sized FO unit is likely going to eat alive or at the very least tie up for several rounds and reduce to virtually no remaining effectiveness.
Either outcome is a win for the Necron player, because every shot fired in panic at the FOs means one less shot at your core army, and the subsequent charge is bound to cause some damage. The counter charge is just as good an option because FO's are the equal to just about every other CC dedicated unit out there in terms of ability per point spent. If 260 points of Flayed Ones ties up a 500+ point deathstar for 2-3 rounds of combat and managed to reduce the deathstar's effectiveness, they have done their job and then some. Just be weary of Dreadnaughts, Knights, or T8 MCs.
I can't fathom how GW thought with a 17 ppm immortal, that 18ppm tomb blades who carry a tl version of the same weapon T5 and a jetbike was reasonable
Immortals can be transported, Tomb Blades can not
Immortals can be repaired, with the right detachment, Tomb Blades can not
Immortals can be joined by Crypteks, Tomb Blades can not
Most impotantly, Bikes cost about twice as much in real money, and didn't sell as well
Are you seriously trying to argue that a tomb blade is reasonably cost?
I take it that your desire to vent overcame your ability to percieve humor/irony/sarcasm
Orock wrote: In an edition where it SEEMED they were trying to tone down the power and cheeze, all I can see are really strong units and combinations here. Seriously the necrons made a big gain over their last codex, when everyone else was expecting to be brought in line. I have no idea what GW thinks is game balance, but I no longer look forward to tau and eldar revisions, because this codex will still be in game. I think ill try picking this game up again in 8th edition. What they did to half the codex in this game in the last two years is just wrong.
"We're not selling enough. Make another power codex, with all the models that didn't sell well being powerful and incentive to collect all the options!"
I wouldn't say that Orock. I'd say that it's still in line with the current books. And it's a fairly decent brake on Knights. Overall I think it's going to be good for the meta. The actual point cost is going to keep a lot of this in check. Lots of good options but you can't suddenly take all of them. The points mostly stayed the same outside of pushing barge and flyers up in points.
Flayed Ones in a Decurion with an Overlord attached. Overlord takes a Warscythe and the Solar Staff, giving them Invisibility for a turn and also brings his own Assault power. Attaching a Cryptek for the 5++ against shooting would be gravy, but starts to push expensive.
If you do this, you lose the Flayed Ones ability to infiltrate (or deepstrike, they have both don't they?), so they are slogging it across the board. I think Flayed Ones are going to remain best on their own, infiltrating with maxed sized units. They'll either draw all of the enemies fire, and still have enough models to go in and disrupt your opponent's backfield (but likely won't dominate), or your opponent will counter charge with his own CC unit, which a maxed sized FO unit is likely going to eat alive or at the very least tie up for several rounds and reduce to virtually no remaining effectiveness.
Either outcome is a win for the Necron player, because every shot fired in panic at the FOs means one less shot at your core army, and the subsequent charge is bound to cause some damage. The counter charge is just as good an option because FO's are the equal to just about every other CC dedicated unit out there in terms of ability per point spent. If 260 points of Flayed Ones ties up a 500+ point deathstar for 2-3 rounds of combat and managed to reduce the deathstar's effectiveness, they have done their job and then some. Just be weary of Dreadnaughts, Knights, or T8 MCs.
Infiltrating a big blob of 20 is a bit difficult though, unless you play with huge LOS blocking buildings all over the place. We play with a lot of ruins and cover, but not a lot of LOS blockers. Some, but not enough to make Infiltrate reliable.
Still, I get your point. Of course, you can always give the Veil of Darkness to Overlord to grant him Deep Strike. I guess the trade off is FOs by themselves can Infiltrate, but don't enjoy a 5++, rerolls to 1s of RP, or Invisibility.
RivenSkull wrote: "We're not selling enough. Make another power codex, with all the models that didn't sell well being powerful and incentive to collect all the options!"
That's circular logic.
1. They didn't sell well because they were too weak.
2. Weak units need to be buffed.
3. Buffed units are sold more.
If it was all about money, they wouldn't have buffed Wraiths.
(I am still rofl'ing every time I can say they buffed Wraiths)
Orock wrote: In an edition where it SEEMED they were trying to tone down the power and cheeze, all I can see are really strong units and combinations here. Seriously the necrons made a big gain over their last codex, when everyone else was expecting to be brought in line. I have no idea what GW thinks is game balance, but I no longer look forward to tau and eldar revisions, because this codex will still be in game. I think ill try picking this game up again in 8th edition. What they did to half the codex in this game in the last two years is just wrong.
Everyone complained about Tesla and snapshots. GW fixed it.
Everyone complained about cheap Nightscythes and Annhiliation Barges. GW fixed it.
People complained that RP was demoralizing because after they killed Necrons, they had to watch them get back up (purely psychological, but frequently complained about). GW fixed it.
Everyone complained about MSS (whether it was deserved or not) because it was so frustrating. GW fixed it (nerfed it into the ground in fact).
Looks like Zhandrekh lost 'Phased Reinforcements'. To me this is huge, but I'm glad that 'Tactics' are surprisingly still in. I had secretly hoped he would go to the LoW instead of Imo to free up the HQ slot, but I'm happy overall.
Can FOs still DS? Can Wraiths? The loss of the Zhandrekh combo means we might still be hurting in the HnA deployment games. (Yes, I've been using FOs, and I'm chuckling now that people are only now considering them to be viable.)
While I think the Deathmarks are nice being able to shoot the turn they arrive, the loss of actually marking means that reserve heavy opponents are happier now forcing us to go first. Also, the seldom used tactic of running 2 Units, with both units killing 1 on the turn they arrived, then actually hunting the other unit down is gone. More for Narrative reasons, but not much else.
Are Warrior units more than 10 still able to get an Ark? Or does the wording include 'If the unit is 10 models or less, they may purchase...' Or something along those lines. I really want to know if I have to pay the 10 model tax, or compete with FA slots to support my blobs.
Edit: Looks like I'm one of the few that feels like Wraiths NEEDED a buff. I'm excited to have a reason to put them on the table.
I think Zhandrek's ability is kind of insane. He can take the 3 unit infiltrating warlord trait turn one, then the re-roll reserve trait turn 2, then be in combat turn 3 with the eternal warrior trait and continue on in that fashion (i'm sure players could come up with more broken combos).
Akar wrote: Looks like Zhandrekh lost 'Phased Reinforcements'. To me this is huge, but I'm glad that 'Tactics' are surprisingly still in. I had secretly hoped he would go to the LoW instead of Imo to free up the HQ slot, but I'm happy overall.
Can FOs still DS? Can Wraiths? The loss of the Zhandrekh combo means we might still be hurting in the HnA deployment games. (Yes, I've been using FOs, and I'm chuckling now that people are only now considering them to be viable.)
While I think the Deathmarks are nice being able to shoot the turn they arrive, the loss of actually marking means that reserve heavy opponents are happier now forcing us to go first. Also, the seldom used tactic of running 2 Units, with both units killing 1 on the turn they arrived, then actually hunting the other unit down is gone. More for Narrative reasons, but not much else.
Are Warrior units more than 10 still able to get an Ark? Or does the wording include 'If the unit is 10 models or less, they may purchase...' Or something along those lines. I really want to know if I have to pay the 10 model tax, or compete with FA slots to support my blobs.
Flayed ones can deep strike.
Wraiths can not deep strike, being that they are now beasts.
No... Ghost Arks have always been 10 capacity... now you can't take 5 man warrior squads however.
buddha wrote: I think Zhandrek's ability is kind of insane. He can take the 3 unit infiltrating warlord trait turn one, then the re-roll reserve trait turn 2, then be in combat turn 3 with the eternal warrior trait and continue on in that fashion (i'm sure players could come up with more broken combos).
Actually, Zahndrekh starts with a set Warlord Trait (Eternal Madness, which is Zealot ), so he can't choose a trait until the start of Turn 1. Which is too late to Infiltrate, since that's after deployment.
Verviedi wrote: So currently what units are looking bad and which are looking good?
I'm looking to sell my nerfed stuff and pick up the new cheese.
It generally sounds like everything is pretty good with a lot of attention going to the fast attack choices (minus scarabs who are a bit meh compare to their previous incarnation) and elite choices seemed to have gotten quite a bit stronger (namely Lychguard, Praetorians and Flayed Ones).
As for genuinely BAD well, doesn't sound like anything really is (aside from the resorb - debatable - and MSS).
buddha wrote: I think Zhandrek's ability is kind of insane. He can take the 3 unit infiltrating warlord trait turn one, then the re-roll reserve trait turn 2, then be in combat turn 3 with the eternal warrior trait and continue on in that fashion (i'm sure players could come up with more broken combos).
Actually, Zahndrekh starts with a set Warlord Trait (Eternal Madness, which is Zealot ), so he can't choose a trait until the start of Turn 1. Which is too late to Infiltrate, since that's after deployment.
Ah good catch. Still though, BRB warlord traits especially can be quite powerful and being able to select the one you want each turn is just insane.
I'm also liking Orkir the Diviner in a unit of lychguard. Combine with a bad mother Olord and put in nightscythe, I think we have a pretty unkillable CC unit. Hell with nightmare shroud the Olord will be rocking a 2+ re-rollable in that unit; scary.
We defintely took some hits here, pretty much anything that was above average in effectiveness was nerfed
Scarab Swarms - Nerfed in effectiveness, cost 33% more, smaller max unit size
Cron Air MSU - Warriors went from 5 to 10 min size (+65pts) and Scythes went up 30% (+30pts), Telsa Nerfed
Royal Courts - Despairtek and Stormtek are gone. No more TPing around with Haywire
Anhilation Barges - went up 40pts and had their guns nerfed on jink, which destroys them both being cheap and able to shoot effectively while jinking
Catacomb Command Barges - No more invul save for vehicle, 3++ now 4++, AP 2 instead of AP1, MSS nerfed
MSS - nerfed down to fear
Warscythe - AP 2 instead of AP1
---
Now don't get me wrong, I like how most everything else was buffed to compensate, but we basically got FNP and better assault in a shooty and vehicle heavy edition.
Hey guys. I've been lurking around for the past week or so but never bothered posting, but I feel like taking part in these discussions. Mis valientes guerreros posted a dropbox link to all of the screenshots, which include ones that haven't been posted here(basically just the named characters)https://www.dropbox.com/sh/eqcu5zyw668o31h/AACMO1VVmdcu-6m-WLHFzT9ia?dl=0
Orock wrote: In an edition where it SEEMED they were trying to tone down the power and cheeze, all I can see are really strong units and combinations here. Seriously the necrons made a big gain over their last codex, when everyone else was expecting to be brought in line. I have no idea what GW thinks is game balance, but I no longer look forward to tau and eldar revisions, because this codex will still be in game. I think ill try picking this game up again in 8th edition. What they did to half the codex in this game in the last two years is just wrong.
At first glance, that's how it seems, but its dawned on me that as far as external balance goes, GW views all IoM armies as a single entity. Straight up, it sure looks like Necrons will overpower any single IoM army out there, but you have to consider those other options. IoM can add assassins, Inquisitors, and Knights without any major hurdles, and these can very much swing the balance back in favor of the IoM. Sadly, it truly feels like I'm being forced to add other IoM factions to my Crimson Fists (I already have an Vindicaire assassin and an Inquisitor, may have to add a Knight).
As for the other Xenos, I feel Necrons match up well with Eldar and Tau. The jury is still out when it comes to horde armies, I think they may have some trouble there. If nothing else, Necrons certainly shake up the standard builds for most armies (including their own).
So I have a question. How does everyone feel about lychguard vs praetorians? IMO I like sword and board lychguard currently, but I'm also looking at the 2 praetorians and one stalker formation and it looks super good. So would it be better to use praetorians over lychguard?
And some other questions: how does everyone feel about imotekh? To me he seems a little alright, but I don't think hes on par with the other chapter master lord of wars. However, he doesn't take up an HQ slot, which is helpful.
On the topic of HQs, I think Zandrekh and Orikan are now my favorites in that slot. I'm a little disappointed at Orikan keeping a 4+ armor when empowered, but his stats are awesome. I'm not sure if I missed it, but can Zahndrekh take Mephryt dynasty traits? I'm also pretty sad about Trazyn and Obyron.
Also flayed ones, should I use them? They seem pretty good, but not $90 for ten finecast models good. I saw that conversion somebody posted, but I'm not sure if I should do that.
How does everyone feel about the stalker? Is it worth it?
Another thing, am I the only person that loves the new nightbringer c'tan shard? Sure it's not competitive, but I really likd the whole randomness for when I'm playing games with friends(also did we get a verdict on whether it shoots twice?)
toonkirby wrote: Hey guys. I've been lurking around for the past week or so but never bothered posting, but I feel like taking part in these discussions. Mis valientes guerreros posted a dropbox link to all of the screenshots, which include ones that haven't been posted here(basically just the named characters)https://www.dropbox.com/sh/eqcu5zyw668o31h/AACMO1VVmdcu-6m-WLHFzT9ia?dl=0
Thanks! Well it's confirmed that the obelisk and the vault are lords of war which isn't as fun.
Hulksmash wrote: I wouldn't say that Orock. I'd say that it's still in line with the current books. And it's a fairly decent brake on Knights. Overall I think it's going to be good for the meta. The actual point cost is going to keep a lot of this in check. Lots of good options but you can't suddenly take all of them. The points mostly stayed the same outside of pushing barge and flyers up in points.
Well said, as usual, Hulk.
There is a ton of good stuff to be excited about, however Necrons do lose Haywireteks, and NS and ABs and CCBs were considerably toned down. They all needed it, don't get me wrong, but keep in mind these 4 units were pretty much 90% of the competitive seen.
Honestly, it's just a really, really solid Dex so far. I mean, playtime will give us more evidence, however the internal balance seems quite strong, but nothing seems to bu jumping out as completely broken, either. What mean by that is, I'd feel pretty confident both playing with and facing the current Dex.
Orock wrote: In an edition where it SEEMED they were trying to tone down the power and cheeze, all I can see are really strong units and combinations here. Seriously the necrons made a big gain over their last codex, when everyone else was expecting to be brought in line. I have no idea what GW thinks is game balance, but I no longer look forward to tau and eldar revisions, because this codex will still be in game. I think ill try picking this game up again in 8th edition. What they did to half the codex in this game in the last two years is just wrong.
At first glance, that's how it seems, but its dawned on me that as far as external balance goes, GW views all IoM armies as a single entity. Straight up, it sure looks like Necrons will overpower any single IoM army out there, but you have to consider those other options. IoM can add assassins, Inquisitors, and Knights without any major hurdles, and these can very much swing the balance back in favor of the IoM. Sadly, it truly feels like I'm being forced to add other IoM factions to my Crimson Fists (I already have an Vindicaire assassin and an Inquisitor, may have to add a Knight).
As for the other Xenos, I feel Necrons match up well with Eldar and Tau. The jury is still out when it comes to horde armies, I think they may have some trouble there. If nothing else, Necrons certainly shake up the standard builds for most armies (including their own).
This definitely rings true. Playing Grey Knights, I can absolutely attest to the fact that certain other IoM armies feel like they fit lock and key, with filling the completely obvious gaps in the GK Codex.
I know GW designers are often hit or miss, but when say, Adepta Sororitas and GK perfectly fill the weaknesses of the other, its like they damn near intended all IoM armies to be allied with another of their lot.
Obyron has once per game Ghostwalk Mantle and is cheaper. Two teleporting units are a go, even if he kinda sucks due to not having an invulnerable but hey, that's not new.
toonkirby wrote: So I have a question. How does everyone feel about lychguard vs praetorians? IMO I like sword and board lychguard currently, but I'm also looking at the 2 praetorians and one stalker formation and it looks super good. So would it be better to use praetorians over lychguard?
And some other questions: how does everyone feel about imotekh? To me he seems a little alright, but I don't think hes on par with the other chapter master lord of wars. However, he doesn't take up an HQ slot, which is helpful.
On the topic of HQs, I think Zandrekh and Orikan are now my favorites in that slot. I'm a little disappointed at Orikan keeping a 4+ armor when empowered, but his stats are awesome. I'm not sure if I missed it, but can Zahndrekh take Mephryt dynasty traits? I'm also pretty sad about Trazyn and Obyron.
Also flayed ones, should I use them? They seem pretty good, but not $90 for ten finecast models good. I saw that conversion somebody posted, but I'm not sure if I should do that.
How does everyone feel about the stalker? Is it worth it?
Another thing, am I the only person that loves the new nightbringer c'tan shard? Sure it's not competitive, but I really likd the whole randomness for when I'm playing games with friends(also did we get a verdict on whether it shoots twice?)
I'm feeling the sword and board lychguard with a cryptek. Tough enough to hold up some Thunderwolf cavalry for a while methinks.
Loving the Stalker. Always wanted to use the model, but it was so over-costed. Now it's just right
I love the new Nightbringer as well. He's far from top tier, but I adore his abilities and I've always loved that model.
Who knew that Necrons would go from a shooty based army to one that has so much assault potential?
Certainly noone who picked up Necrons years ago before they got "cool". The new Codex:Necron is about as Necron as Sarah Palin is an accurate representation of the US.
Praetorians can take a Night Scythe as a dedicated transport, but the Night Scythe doesn't seem to state it can carry Jump Infantry, unless I'm overlooking the obvious.
Oh hey, Obyron kept the Ghostwalk Mantle. For some reason I thought he lost it.
Actually, considering he got a 40 point price drop, I think he's pretty strong now. I know cleaving counter blow only works in challenges, now, but 40 points seems like a fair trade for that loss.
Edit, on second look, I think he lost a Wound, as well. That does make him pretty damn pricey for a 2 wound unit.
However, now that Veil is only a one take, if you want a second, he's pretty much your only option.
Who knew that Necrons would go from a shooty based army to one that has so much assault potential?
Certainly noone who picked up Necrons years ago before they got "cool". The new Codex:Necron is about as Necron as Sarah Palin is an accurate representation of the US.
Based on some Americans on political forums she is representative of at least a portion of the US sorry bud.
I'm interested, even if my army is 6 wraiths 3 A Barges and 2 CCB's and 40 warriors scarabs and a doomsday ark, its basically looking like I'm going to have to purchase an awful lot of stuff to be viable.
Orock wrote: In an edition where it SEEMED they were trying to tone down the power and cheeze, all I can see are really strong units and combinations here. Seriously the necrons made a big gain over their last codex, when everyone else was expecting to be brought in line. I have no idea what GW thinks is game balance, but I no longer look forward to tau and eldar revisions, because this codex will still be in game. I think ill try picking this game up again in 8th edition. What they did to half the codex in this game in the last two years is just wrong.
Games workshop sees game balance as whatever will sell models. They give cool units, Riptide, WK, etc to sell and then nerf existing builds and boost crap units to make them sell. Its a great marketing strategy, just a crappy balance one.
toonkirby wrote: So I have a question. How does everyone feel about lychguard vs praetorians? IMO I like sword and board lychguard currently, but I'm also looking at the 2 praetorians and one stalker formation and it looks super good. So would it be better to use praetorians over lychguard?
And some other questions: how does everyone feel about imotekh? To me he seems a little alright, but I don't think hes on par with the other chapter master lord of wars. However, he doesn't take up an HQ slot, which is helpful.
On the topic of HQs, I think Zandrekh and Orikan are now my favorites in that slot. I'm a little disappointed at Orikan keeping a 4+ armor when empowered, but his stats are awesome. I'm not sure if I missed it, but can Zahndrekh take Mephryt dynasty traits? I'm also pretty sad about Trazyn and Obyron.
Also flayed ones, should I use them? They seem pretty good, but not $90 for ten finecast models good. I saw that conversion somebody posted, but I'm not sure if I should do that.
How does everyone feel about the stalker? Is it worth it?
Another thing, am I the only person that loves the new nightbringer c'tan shard? Sure it's not competitive, but I really likd the whole randomness for when I'm playing games with friends(also did we get a verdict on whether it shoots twice?)
I like Praetorians a bit more. Sword and Shield Lychguards are great bodyguard units for Overlords/Lords kitted out for assault, but I think we have better Assault options right now. Warscythe Lychguard have a place as well, though, but they need HQ support so they don't die without their Shields. Praetorians seem a bit more reasonable - Not great at killing vehicles, but more mobile and have an AP2 shooting attack. That's not bad. Lychguard basically either need a Veil of Darkness or a Night Scythe to get to backfield units, Praetorians can kind of do it by themselves.
I LOVE Imotekh now. Lord of the Storm isn't as powerful in shooting, but it's a big 48" bubble of pain for the entire game now, not just during Night Fight. He has a great gun, and his boost to Deep Striking Flayed Ones actually means something now that Flayed Ones are playable. With a 2+/4++/5+++ (Which is probably going to be a 4+++) and the set Reserve Manipulation Warlord Trait, he's a steal for 190 points. Sure, he's not an Assault badass or anything, but he has a lot going for him imo.
Convert them from Warriors. There was a video floating around that looked quick and easy.
I think the Stalker is nice now. 125 is still pretty steep for one shot on a vehicle that can't Jink and doesn't have a save, but the +1BS has its uses.
Nightbringer is the only C'Tan I'd consider using. Deceiver has some uses, but I don't really care too much about the redeploy (doesn't matter if you deploy second, I guess except against Scout) and the -LD is only situationally nice. The Trans-C'tan is ok with the better statline, but Writhing Worldscape isn't as good anymore and Deep Strike is only ok. His shooting isn't good enough to be scary, and I'm not extremely entertained by his Assault. Nightbringer is the best of the bunch, with Fleshbane (makes him great against MCs and what not) and Psychic Shriek.
Redemption wrote: Praetorians can take a Night Scythe as a dedicated transport, but the Night Scythe doesn't seem to state it can carry Jump Infantry, unless I'm overlooking the obvious.
Nightscythe can carry infantry. Jump infantry are just bulky, so will take up 2 slots. That means you have have a unit of 7 Praetorians in the NS, but not 8.
Who knew that Necrons would go from a shooty based army to one that has so much assault potential?
Certainly noone who picked up Necrons years ago before they got "cool". The new Codex:Necron is about as Necron as Sarah Palin is an accurate representation of the US.
Damn, Sig, when did you become such a negative nancy, brah? It's like you are bound and determined to hate this new Codex for some reason.
Who knew that Necrons would go from a shooty based army to one that has so much assault potential?
Certainly noone who picked up Necrons years ago before they got "cool". The new Codex:Necron is about as Necron as Sarah Palin is an accurate representation of the US.
Eh, the old crons also had a touch of the melee about them. They were just horrible at it.
Who knew that Necrons would go from a shooty based army to one that has so much assault potential?
Certainly noone who picked up Necrons years ago before they got "cool". The new Codex:Necron is about as Necron as Sarah Palin is an accurate representation of the US.
Based on some Americans on political forums she is representative of at least a portion of the US sorry bud.
I'm interested, even if my army is 6 wraiths 3 A Barges and 2 CCB's and 40 warriors scarabs and a doomsday ark, its basically looking like I'm going to have to purchase an awful lot of stuff to be viable.
Imagine that you live in a country that is starkly divided between those that live in the 3 largest cities and the rest of the country. That is the US. Unfortunately, the media in the US is controlled out of those three largest cities... so a distorted picture of the country is what is projected to the world.
toonkirby wrote: Hey guys. I've been lurking around for the past week or so but never bothered posting, but I feel like taking part in these discussions. Mis valientes guerreros posted a dropbox link to all of the screenshots, which include ones that haven't been posted here(basically just the named characters)https://www.dropbox.com/sh/eqcu5zyw668o31h/AACMO1VVmdcu-6m-WLHFzT9ia?dl=0
Thanks! Well it's confirmed that the obelisk and the vault are lords of war which isn't as fun.
I'm ok with Obelisk as a LoW, it doesn't matter for the Decurion and it frees up another HS slot if I'm going Vehicle Heavy. Win/win imo.
changemod wrote:Obyron has once per game Ghostwalk Mantle and is cheaper. Two teleporting units are a go, even if he kinda sucks due to not having an invulnerable but hey, that's not new.
Alright, then he's not all bad. And it still doesn't scatter within 12" of Zahndrekh, which is nice too. So he has uses - just not really as a dedicated Assault dude. More as a 120 point way to shoot things around the board and give some light Assault defense and 2+ armor tanking.
Attaching Orikan to Imotekh/Obyron/Zahndrekh/Overlord with Nightmare Shroud gives them 2+ rerollable armor. Nice.
King Pariah wrote: Oh wait, Vargard Obyron and Trazyn are crap and Anrakyr is situational.
If anyone thinks of a good use for Trazyn, please let me know.
If you're running big Character lists (spamming Royal Courts, basically) and make him your Warlord, you basically deny Slay the Warlord to your opponent. That's all I got.
Requizen wrote: I LOVE Imotekh now. Lord of the Storm isn't as powerful in shooting, but it's a big 48" bubble of pain for the entire game now, not just during Night Fight. He has a great gun, and his boost to Deep Striking Flayed Ones actually means something now that Flayed Ones are playable. With a 2+/4++/5+++ (Which is probably going to be a 4+++) and the set Reserve Manipulation Warlord Trait, he's a steal for 190 points. Sure, he's not an Assault badass or anything, but he has a lot going for him imo.
I could've sworn it says once per game in the screenshots?
In response to everything else, what's your reasoning that paretorians are better? I want to know how you and everyone else feel when comparing to lychguard. I think I will pick up a stalker then, I've always liked the model, but other things have popped up in front of it for things I want to buy. I also really want to get the nightbringer and run it with the mephryt dynasty formation with the god shackle
King Pariah wrote: Oh wait, Vargard Obyron and Trazyn are crap and Anrakyr is situational.
If anyone thinks of a good use for Trazyn, please let me know.
His weapon gained +2S, AP 4, and Concussive...but of course the special ability only works in challenges...its S4 though, instead of just wounding on a 4+, so its better against hordes assuming they actually agree to challenge?
Yeah...I'm not sure if I get this new incarnation either. He'll at least be a difficult slay the warlord point to take? It's to bad they didn't give him back Objective Secured. That would have at least been something.
He got a big price reduction (45 pts I think?), fwiw
Who knew that Necrons would go from a shooty based army to one that has so much assault potential?
Certainly noone who picked up Necrons years ago before they got "cool". The new Codex:Necron is about as Necron as Sarah Palin is an accurate representation of the US.
Damn, Sig, when did you become such a negative nancy, brah? It's like you are bound and determined to hate this new Codex for some reason.
Because I do. I solely play 40k / Necrons because of their fluff and don't care about their power level at all - although it feels like being the <1% of players still thinking that way, most people are just about an army's "power level" nowadays. I mean, really, of all games those people choose 40k?
This edition of Codex: Necrons has nothing to do with Necrons. A strong focus on Assault? WBB fully removed? Necrons suddenly posing like Space Marines / regular humans as if they'd care? Those stupid jetbikes? If this wasn't called Codex: Necrons, it could be any random, generic codex. You could easily and 1:1 apply most if not all those rules to regular Space Marines. There is nothing iconic about the codex. As usual, I point you at the 3rd codex, the pinnacle of codex writing. It had a nigh-perfect connection between fluff and rules. Phase Out, for example, was a terrible rule power-wise that drastically lowered Necron effectiveness. On the other hand, it fit perfectly to their fluff. Just one of many examples.
It's a soulless piece of overpriced paper. More power to the powergamers.
I LOVE Imotekh now. Lord of the Storm isn't as powerful in shooting, but it's a big 48" bubble of pain for the entire game now, not just during Night Fight. He has a great gun, and his boost to Deep Striking Flayed Ones actually means something now that Flayed Ones are playable. With a 2+/4++/5+++ (Which is probably going to be a 4+++) and the set Reserve Manipulation Warlord Trait, he's a steal for 190 points. Sure, he's not an Assault badass or anything, but he has a lot going for him imo.
Didn't someone confirm that Lord of Storms is one use only?
Requizen wrote: I LOVE Imotekh now. Lord of the Storm isn't as powerful in shooting, but it's a big 48" bubble of pain for the entire game now, not just during Night Fight. He has a great gun, and his boost to Deep Striking Flayed Ones actually means something now that Flayed Ones are playable. With a 2+/4++/5+++ (Which is probably going to be a 4+++) and the set Reserve Manipulation Warlord Trait, he's a steal for 190 points. Sure, he's not an Assault badass or anything, but he has a lot going for him imo.
I could've sworn it says once per game in the screenshots?
In response to everything else, what's your reasoning that paretorians are better? I want to know how you and everyone else feel when comparing to lychguard. I think I will pick up a stalker then, I've always liked the model, but other things have popped up in front of it for things I want to buy. I also really want to get the nightbringer and run it with the mephryt dynasty formation with the god shackle
Ah butts, I skimmed. It is once per game. Now my Imotekh hype just crashed. I mean, free Night Fighting, better Flayed Ones, good shooting and durability is nice, but now that 190 looks a bit more expensive. Oh well, I guess.
Lychguard are stronger in assault, but Praetorians are more mobile and have good shooting. This means they can't be attached to a Character, but I think it grants them more versatility. If I was going to add a dedicated assault unit, or needed a squad designed to fight Knights, I'd get Lychguard. But, as a general, all arounder squad, I think Praetorians are better.
Stalker is a great model, and it'll be awesome if you run it in the formation. Keep in mind, as soon as people figure out that it's buffing your army, all anti-tank will be pointed at it. Find some cover.
My thoughts exactly. Nightbringer in Conclave with God Shackle is tough as nails, has great shooting, and is scary in assault to near anything. I'm running one ASAP.
Because I do. I solely play 40k / Necrons because of their fluff and don't care about their power level at all - although it feels like being the <1% of players still thinking that way, most people are just about an army's "power level" nowadays. I mean, really, of all games those people choose 40k?
This edition of Codex: Necrons has nothing to do with Necrons. A strong focus on Assault? WBB fully removed? Necrons suddenly posing like Space Marines / regular humans as if they'd care? Those stupid jetbikes? If this wasn't called Codex: Necrons, it could be any random, generic codex. You could easily and 1:1 apply most if not all those rules to regular Space Marines. There is nothing iconic about the codex. As usual, I point you at the 3rd codex, the pinnacle of codex writing. It had a nigh-perfect connection between fluff and rules. Phase Out, for example, was a terrible rule power-wise that drastically lowered Necron effectiveness. On the other hand, it fit perfectly to their fluff. Just one of many examples.
It's a soulless piece of overpriced paper. More power to the powergamers.
Most of the fluff your referring to changed last Codex. I mean, to each his own, but I've always found this to be a curious thing to complain about. If you don't like the imaginary stories GW created, create your own imaginary stories. If you want to quit games when you get down to 25% of your army I'm sure your opponent will let you .
Redemption wrote: Praetorians can take a Night Scythe as a dedicated transport, but the Night Scythe doesn't seem to state it can carry Jump Infantry, unless I'm overlooking the obvious.
Nightscythe can carry infantry. Jump infantry are just bulky, so will take up 2 slots. That means you have have a unit of 7 Praetorians in the NS, but not 8.
From 'Transports' in the main rulebook:
Only Infantry models can embark upon Transports (this does not include Jump or Jet Pack Infantry), unless specifically stated otherwise.
So as of right now, Praetorians have a Dedicated Transport that they can't use as it seems to have lost the exception from the previous codex that allowed it to carry Jump Infantry and Jetbikes.
Alcibiades wrote: Am I right in thinking that the Trans-D Beamer is better than the Particle Caster on the Wraiths in every single way other than being Heavy?
It is, but that Heavy is a pretty big deal.
Now, assuming you grabbed them in the Decurion and they are relentless....take the Beamers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, I just saw the Ever Living benefits of the Decurion that Dr. D mentioned. +1 RP to all units and Living Metal working on Shaken as well as Stunned is a go.
Alcibiades wrote: Am I right in thinking that the Trans-D Beamer is better than the Particle Caster on the Wraiths in every single way other than being Heavy?
Well, a whip coil is a close combat weapon, so if you take the particle caster I think you can get an extra attack on CC
Also @Requizen
I'm still gonna get Imotekh regardless, but it is kinda sad when I compare him to the other 7e lord of wars.
Hmm I think I'll get myself a stalker and some praetorians then. The only thing is that the praetorians have no invul save if I take them with particle casters and voidblades. I also just remembered I have a unit of lychguard so I'm totwlly cool with more praetorians
Who knew that Necrons would go from a shooty based army to one that has so much assault potential?
Certainly noone who picked up Necrons years ago before they got "cool". The new Codex:Necron is about as Necron as Sarah Palin is an accurate representation of the US.
Based on some Americans on political forums she is representative of at least a portion of the US sorry bud.
I'm interested, even if my army is 6 wraiths 3 A Barges and 2 CCB's and 40 warriors scarabs and a doomsday ark, its basically looking like I'm going to have to purchase an awful lot of stuff to be viable.
Imagine that you live in a country that is starkly divided between those that live in the 3 largest cities and the rest of the country. That is the US. Unfortunately, the media in the US is controlled out of those three largest cities... so a distorted picture of the country is what is projected to the world.
toonkirby wrote: Hey guys. I've been lurking around for the past week or so but never bothered posting, but I feel like taking part in these discussions. Mis valientes guerreros posted a dropbox link to all of the screenshots, which include ones that haven't been posted here(basically just the named characters)https://www.dropbox.com/sh/eqcu5zyw668o31h/AACMO1VVmdcu-6m-WLHFzT9ia?dl=0
Thanks for the link, I missed a few of those before they got taken down on the other sites
Just read the Eternity Gate rules. If you select a unit in reserves for it, you get that unit automatically now. I'm pretty sure you could only select units that rolled successfully to arrive previously. So, that's a nice little buff, there.
Most of the fluff your referring to changed last Codex. I mean, to each his own, but I've always found this to be a curious thing to complain about. If you don't like the imaginary stories GW created, create your own imaginary stories. If you want to quit games when you get down to 25% of your army I'm sure your opponent will let you .
I've fully switched back to playing 4th and all tournaments we play are now 4th as well
ShadarLogoth wrote: Just read the Eternity Gate rules. If you select a unit in reserves for it, you get that unit automatically now. I'm pretty sure you could only select units that rolled successfully to arrive previously. So, that's a nice little buff, there.
Heh, kind of like the old monolith. Does it work on every unit, or just warriors?
Oh, I just saw the Ever Living benefits of the Decurion that Dr. D mentioned. +1 RP to all units and Living Metal working on Shaken as well as Stunned is a go.
Holy crap.
The evil part of me is whispering about Wraiths in that formation with a 4+++ to complement their T5 2W 3++... THE TEAAAARS!
That might actually be too evil to use in friendly games, regardless of the rest of the army.
I've fully switched back to playing 4th and all tournaments we play are now 4th as well
Model-wise, 100% recast / second hand.
Congrats, I genuinely applaud that you guys found a consensus that works, and that you're happy with. Far too many people just bitch and don't try to rectify the problems they have with the game.
Oh, I just saw the Ever Living benefits of the Decurion that Dr. D mentioned. +1 RP to all units and Living Metal working on Shaken as well as Stunned is a go.
Holy crap.
The evil part of me is whispering about Wraiths in that formation with a 4+++ to complement their T5 2W 4++... THE TEAAAARS!
That might actually be too evil to use in friendly games, regardless of the rest of the army.
You know wraiths have 3+ invuls, right? They no longer have phase shifters, and get their own special rule.
You know wraiths have 3+ invuls, right? They no longer have phase shifters, and get their own special rule.
Sure, I know. But if they're taken as part of their formation they can get RP from a spyder, or did I remember that wrong? Thought I read that yesterday.
And that would mean they'd get a 4up RP roll AFTER they fail a 3++ save. Making them ridiculously durable.
EDIT: Oh, I just realized I wrote that wrong in my original post! Just a typo.
Redemption wrote: Praetorians can take a Night Scythe as a dedicated transport, but the Night Scythe doesn't seem to state it can carry Jump Infantry, unless I'm overlooking the obvious.
Nightscythe can carry infantry. Jump infantry are just bulky, so will take up 2 slots. That means you have have a unit of 7 Praetorians in the NS, but not 8.
From 'Transports' in the main rulebook:
Only Infantry models can embark upon Transports (this does not include Jump or Jet Pack Infantry), unless specifically stated otherwise.
So as of right now, Praetorians have a Dedicated Transport that they can't use as it seems to have lost the exception from the previous codex that allowed it to carry Jump Infantry and Jetbikes.
It's as if they forgot they took out the line that let Nightscythes carry every unit type under the sun.
Redemption wrote: Praetorians can take a Night Scythe as a dedicated transport, but the Night Scythe doesn't seem to state it can carry Jump Infantry, unless I'm overlooking the obvious.
Nightscythe can carry infantry. Jump infantry are just bulky, so will take up 2 slots. That means you have have a unit of 7 Praetorians in the NS, but not 8.
From 'Transports' in the main rulebook:
Only Infantry models can embark upon Transports (this does not include Jump or Jet Pack Infantry), unless specifically stated otherwise.
So as of right now, Praetorians have a Dedicated Transport that they can't use as it seems to have lost the exception from the previous codex that allowed it to carry Jump Infantry and Jetbikes.
Thanks for the correction. Seems like an oversight... hopefully it will be corrected with our obligatory faq that only fixes typos.
You know wraiths have 3+ invuls, right? They no longer have phase shifters, and get their own special rule.
Sure, I know. But if they're taken as part of their formation they can get RP from a spyder, or did I remember that wrong? Thought I read that yesterday.
And that would mean they'd get a 4up RP roll AFTER they fail a 3++ save. Making them ridiculously durable.
Ah ok. It's just that you typed 4++, which is normally short hand for 3+ invulnerable.
Yeah, Wraiths are super tough now. Makes sense I guess; they are meant to be mining drones.
changemod wrote: Hmm... Are their any non-Skyfire ground gun emplacements with AP 2 or 3? You could use that to get ignores cover from a firing Tomb Blade.
Oh, and an Icarus Lascanon against Flying Tyrants.
Checked. Only the Aquilla Strongpoint has one worth mentioning, and we aren't guard.
King Pariah wrote: Oh wait, Vargard Obyron and Trazyn are crap and Anrakyr is situational.
If anyone thinks of a good use for Trazyn, please let me know.
Eternal warrior is nice, S7 power maul with a S4 attack if it slays a character in a challenge isn't awful. I note sadly that as he needs to return as a character, that rule is substantially worse (can only return as overlords, lords and crypteks). Meh. He was never amazing, now he's just worse is all. Shame really as I love the model. Usable at least.
Who knew that Necrons would go from a shooty based army to one that has so much assault potential?
Certainly noone who picked up Necrons years ago before they got "cool". The new Codex:Necron is about as Necron as Sarah Palin is an accurate representation of the US.
Uh, well that's false. Wraithwing has been a thing literally since Wraiths got rules. Pariahs were awesome too, they were just hard to fit in without the Necron rule. Warscythes are also very iconic, as is the Destroyer lord being mostly assault. Scarabs have been about assaulting vehicles since their second rendition in white dwarf. You absolutely cannot tell me that the C'tan weren't made for combat either. Tomb Spyders were absolutelly not meant to sit around firing their crumby gun either. Heck, I even used flayed ones back in the day because terrifying visage was awesome. Maybe not everyone used assault, but I doubt assault will be the mainstay now - you'll just have the option to add it.
This edition of Codex: Necrons has nothing to do with Necrons. A strong focus on Assault? WBB fully removed? Necrons suddenly posing like Space Marines / regular humans as if they'd care? Those stupid jetbikes? If this wasn't called Codex: Necrons, it could be any random, generic codex. You could easily and 1:1 apply most if not all those rules to regular Space Marines. There is nothing iconic about the codex. As usual, I point you at the 3rd codex, the pinnacle of codex writing. It had a nigh-perfect connection between fluff and rules. Phase Out, for example, was a terrible rule power-wise that drastically lowered Necron effectiveness. On the other hand, it fit perfectly to their fluff. Just one of many examples.
It's a soulless piece of overpriced paper. More power to the powergamers.
Is this a joke post? WBB removed? Hello, it's back to almost always working and being a 4+ in the new detachment. I cannot believe you are this mad that you no longer push models onto their side only to pick them all up about a minute later. Come on, it's still an army wide save no other army gets.
Necrons not having personality? In the 3rd WD where they were revealed, it said most were personality husks but some had character traits. They've never been empty husks, they're just much less mysterious now. Not to mention the whole Pariah gene. Jetbikes? You're seriously going to complain about jetbikes in one of the few armies which has almost always had jetbikes? Or is it because they no longer sit on a lounger, preferring to stick a ball in their eyes instead?
Easily apply these rules to space marines? Oh yeah, remember all those space marines with FNP which resists instant death army wide? Or the bolters which glance land raiders? Or swarms which eat everything? Yeah, those space marines. Along with the space marine jetbikes and the space marine AV13 rhinos. Again, what a silly statement. There's a ton iconic to this codex. The 3e codex fluff was a mess. The way Necrons were described was awesome - they totally captured a mysterious, implacable terror. The way they fit into the fluff, aka "the C'tan did everything, Necrons did everything, everything is Necrons"? Yeah, no, that was awful.
Phase out didn't even really fit the Necron fluff then either. This was an army which would never give up - except they would randomly teleport out and lose the battle even if they were winning. It was a poor balancing attempt which was designed to gimp an army designed to be too powerful and was about as fluffy as a heavy destroyer throwing a disco.
Alcibiades wrote:Am I right in thinking that the Trans-D Beamer is better than the Particle Caster on the Wraiths in every single way other than being Heavy?
Yes, which is why it costs the most. 10 points for a gun which you can rarely fire and which is only S4 is a bit of a gamble.
ShadarLogoth wrote:Just read the Eternity Gate rules. If you select a unit in reserves for it, you get that unit automatically now. I'm pretty sure you could only select units that rolled successfully to arrive previously. So, that's a nice little buff, there.
ShadarLogoth wrote: Just read the Eternity Gate rules. If you select a unit in reserves for it, you get that unit automatically now. I'm pretty sure you could only select units that rolled successfully to arrive previously. So, that's a nice little buff, there.
Heh, kind of like the old monolith. Does it work on every unit, or just warriors?
"Infantry or Jump Infantry", so not everything, but quite a bit.
Congrats, I genuinely applaud that you guys found a consensus that works, and that you're happy with. Far too many people just bitch and don't try to rectify the problems they have with the game.
So why come in here and be salty then?
As far as I can see, this isn't a 100% "HOORAY NEW STUFF!" thread.
I can't fathom how GW thought with a 17 ppm immortal, that 18ppm tomb blades who carry a tl version of the same weapon T5 and a jetbike was reasonable
Immortals can be transported, Tomb Blades can not
Immortals can be repaired, with the right detachment, Tomb Blades can not
Immortals can be joined by Crypteks, Tomb Blades can not
Most impotantly, Bikes cost about twice as much in real money, and didn't sell as well
Are you seriously trying to argue that a tomb blade is reasonably cost?
I take it that your desire to vent overcame your ability to percieve humor/irony/sarcasm
No I saw that, and wasn't really impressed since it's a crappy joke people make every release. You also made several other none sarcastic remarks which were what I was addressing.
ShadarLogoth wrote: Just read the Eternity Gate rules. If you select a unit in reserves for it, you get that unit automatically now. I'm pretty sure you could only select units that rolled successfully to arrive previously. So, that's a nice little buff, there.
Heh, kind of like the old monolith. Does it work on every unit, or just warriors?
"Infantry or Jump Infantry", so not everything, but quite a bit.
Ahh **** does this incapacitate jet pack infantry?
I really consider getting some preatorians to run then judicator battailon, the new formation bonus just seems soooo awesome. I wonder however how you would play them.
Get the stalker to the adavancing infantry blobs for bs5 warriors/immortals, or keep him save in the backfield and just use his unlimited range formation ability?
How to best use the Praetorians, try to get to cc asap or use them as as close ap2 shooting support...
hmm so many options really looking forward to the book!
stormcraft wrote: I really consider getting some preatorians to run then judicator battailon, the new formation bonus just seems soooo awesome. I wonder however how you would play them.
Get the stalker to the adavancing infantry blobs for bs5 warriors/immortals, or keep him save in the backfield and just use his unlimited range formation ability?
How to best use the Praetorians, try to get to cc asap or use them as as close ap2 shooting support...
hmm so many options really looking forward to the book!
That's what I like about Praetorians. There's a lot of flexibility, they can be mobile AP2 shooters (10 of them can seriously threaten any non-MC target) or charge in and do good damage in assault. Wraiths do it as well.
Actually, an army focusing on Praetorians, Wraiths, and Heavy Destroyers is a highly mobile army with lots of AP2 shooting, some of which has ID, and the FA options of which are extremely good in Assault. Could be a scary list for lots of things.
So, just to get it right... Wraith have their old basic 3 attacks with S6 rending, can get I5 are T5 with a3++ and 2W, move 12" ignoring difficult terain and cost 5 points less than a TH/SS Termie? I found them with T4 and 35 Points to be to good for their costs... now they are nearly broken. How should I beat a 3x6 Wraith (720 points) + Support (1130 points) Necron army with a nearly reasonable TAC list? It needs 27 bolter shots to kill 1 Wraith!!! And with 12"movement there is no chance to escape them. Even IK doesnt work anymore, cause of T8...
I really thought GW is on the right course with the last dexes but this is Eldar 2.0... maybe worse...
MasterOfGaunts wrote: So, just to get it right... Wraith have their old basic 3 attacks with S6 rending, can get I5 are T5 with a3++ and 2W, move 12" ignoring difficult terain and cost 5 points less than a TH/SS Termie? I found them with T4 and 35 Points to be to good for their costs... now they are nearly broken. How should I beat a 3x6 Wraith (720 points) + Support (1130 points) Necron army with a nearly reasonable TAC list? It needs 27 bolter shots to kill 1 Wraith!!! And with 12"movement there is no chance to escape them. Even IK doesnt work anymore, cause of T8...
I really thought GW is on the right course with the last dexes but this is Eldar 2.0... maybe worse...
Tarpit them up with a cheap unit, or get inside buildings/vehicles. Even if they wreck the thing (I don't think they can explode non-open-top), then that's an extra turn where they can't assault you.
Sternguard should do pretty well against them, as well as splinter weaponry. Stuff like Wyverns should have potential as well. Basically, anything that's able to just push out raw numbers of wounds. Big hitters with few attacks won't do much, unless they're S10/ID.
The Decurion Formation adding +1 to RP for the whole detachment is pretty insane. Pretty much everything in the army has a 4++ FNP, and a 5++ against instant death. That's incredible. Your barge lords are even more durable now.
Can someone do the math on that?
A Bargelord from the Decurion Detachment, with the 4+ Invulnerable, 4+ RP, and It Will not die , give it Solar Thermasite and nightmare shroud.
2+, Reroll 1s, 4++ reroll 1s, 4++ RP reroll 1s, It Will not die 5+
I think he's pretty much indestructible. I mean I guess you can hit the Barge, that's it.
You know I'm honestly a little scared Necrons are too overpowered now and it'll put off potential opponents.
"Yeah, so these Wraiths have all the stuff that made them great before, only they now have Toughness and Initiative 5 and are in a formation that gives them a 4+ reanimation check."
"…Seriously?"
"All in the book man."
"Okay… Well anyway I deep strike my drop pod Melta unit and-"
"My Deathmarks counter deep strike and get to shoot first."
"What."
"Oh and my entire army gets Relentless, Move Through Cover and 4+ reanimation with some of them rerolling ones."
"Anything else?"
"Flayed Ones are statistically likely to kill a Bloodthirster if it charges them now."
I thought that the Decurion only gave the ability to reroll 1's within 12" of the Overlord? Or is that for the Reclamation Legion? I'm lost and confused.
Hollismason wrote:The Decurion Formation adding +1 to RP for the whole detachment is pretty insane. Pretty much everything in the army has a 4++ FNP, and a 5++ against instant death. That's incredible. Your barge lords are even more durable now.
Can someone do the math on that?
A Bargelord from the Decurion Detachment, with the 4+ Invulnerable, 4+ RP, and It Will not die , give it Solar Thermasite and nightmare shroud.
2+, Reroll 1s, 4++ reroll 1s, 4++ RP reroll 1s, It Will not die 5+
I think he's pretty much indestructible. I mean I guess you can hit the Barge, that's it.
You can't take Solar Thermasite in the Decurion, that's only for the Mephrit Dynasty detachment (and Formations).
So reanimation protocols wouldnt work against it, just their 3++ unless the Knight rolls a 6 on the D
Sure they do. Reanimation Protocols work against anything except "Removed From Play". We get -1 against Isntant Death, but we still make the roll against Strength D weapons.
Drakmord wrote: I thought that the Decurion only gave the ability to reroll 1's within 12" of the Overlord? Or is that for the Reclamation Legion? I'm lost and confused.
Reclamation Legion is the Decurion's core formation.
Hollismason wrote:The Decurion Formation adding +1 to RP for the whole detachment is pretty insane. Pretty much everything in the army has a 4++ FNP, and a 5++ against instant death. That's incredible. Your barge lords are even more durable now.
Can someone do the math on that?
A Bargelord from the Decurion Detachment, with the 4+ Invulnerable, 4+ RP, and It Will not die , give it Solar Thermasite and nightmare shroud.
2+, Reroll 1s, 4++ reroll 1s, 4++ RP reroll 1s, It Will not die 5+
I think he's pretty much indestructible. I mean I guess you can hit the Barge, that's it.
You can't take Solar Thermasite in the Decurion, that's only for the Mephrit Dynasty detachment (and Formations).
So reanimation protocols wouldnt work against it, just their 3++ unless the Knight rolls a 6 on the D
Sure they do. Reanimation Protocols work against anything except "Removed From Play". We get -1 against Isntant Death, but we still make the roll against Strength D weapons.
Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure it read: -1 from instant death, no RP against D weapons and emoved from play.
ClockworkZion wrote: The formations get heavily limited by points limits and in the Decurion, the mandatory models needed first.
You can still take the Formations by themselves. They won't get the Reroll around the Overlord nor the +1RP or improved Living Metal, but you can take the Relentless Canoptek formation with RP by itself alongside a regular Necron CAD.
Hollismason wrote:The Decurion Formation adding +1 to RP for the whole detachment is pretty insane. Pretty much everything in the army has a 4++ FNP, and a 5++ against instant death. That's incredible. Your barge lords are even more durable now.
Can someone do the math on that?
A Bargelord from the Decurion Detachment, with the 4+ Invulnerable, 4+ RP, and It Will not die , give it Solar Thermasite and nightmare shroud.
2+, Reroll 1s, 4++ reroll 1s, 4++ RP reroll 1s, It Will not die 5+
I think he's pretty much indestructible. I mean I guess you can hit the Barge, that's it.
You can't take Solar Thermasite in the Decurion, that's only for the Mephrit Dynasty detachment (and Formations).
So reanimation protocols wouldnt work against it, just their 3++ unless the Knight rolls a 6 on the D
Sure they do. Reanimation Protocols work against anything except "Removed From Play". We get -1 against Isntant Death, but we still make the roll against Strength D weapons.
Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure it read: -1 from instant death, no RP against D weapons and emoved from play.
Ah, you are correct, I only read the second paragraph, missed the Destroyer Weapon stipulation. So yeah, Knights. We gotta figure out something about them.
He seemed good when I first looked at him. But, as I look again, I'm not so sure. His Lord of the Storm is now only once per game, doesn't affect the whole table and only does S6 hits (which are markedly less useful). And, other than that, he doesn't really do anything beyond having a decent shooting attack.
ClockworkZion wrote: The formations get heavily limited by points limits and in the Decurion, the mandatory models needed first.
You can still take the Formations by themselves. They won't get the Reroll around the Overlord nor the +1RP or improved Living Metal, but you can take the Relentless Canoptek formation with RP by itself alongside a regular Necron CAD.
And really, the Mandatories in the Reclamation Legion aren't bad and you can spam the better formations afterwards with no regards for the CAD restrictions.
It's all a little absurd for casual play. Actively hard to build what I'd call a fun list without hitting like a sledgehammer.
ClockworkZion wrote: The formations get heavily limited by points limits and in the Decurion, the mandatory models needed first.
You can still take the Formations by themselves. They won't get the Reroll around the Overlord nor the +1RP or improved Living Metal, but you can take the Relentless Canoptek formation with RP by itself alongside a regular Necron CAD.
Hollismason wrote:The Decurion Formation adding +1 to RP for the whole detachment is pretty insane. Pretty much everything in the army has a 4++ FNP, and a 5++ against instant death. That's incredible. Your barge lords are even more durable now.
Can someone do the math on that?
A Bargelord from the Decurion Detachment, with the 4+ Invulnerable, 4+ RP, and It Will not die , give it Solar Thermasite and nightmare shroud.
2+, Reroll 1s, 4++ reroll 1s, 4++ RP reroll 1s, It Will not die 5+
I think he's pretty much indestructible. I mean I guess you can hit the Barge, that's it.
You can't take Solar Thermasite in the Decurion, that's only for the Mephrit Dynasty detachment (and Formations).
So reanimation protocols wouldnt work against it, just their 3++ unless the Knight rolls a 6 on the D
Sure they do. Reanimation Protocols work against anything except "Removed From Play". We get -1 against Isntant Death, but we still make the roll against Strength D weapons.
Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure it read: -1 from instant death, no RP against D weapons and emoved from play.
Ah, you are correct, I only read the second paragraph, missed the Destroyer Weapon stipulation. So yeah, Knights. We gotta figure out something about them.
You mean in the army that can mass spam 6s for glances?
vipoid wrote: What are people's thoughts on the Stormlord?
He seemed good when I first looked at him. But, as I look again, I'm not so sure. His Lord of the Storm is now only once per game, doesn't affect the whole table and only does S6 hits (which are markedly less useful). And, other than that, he doesn't really do anything beyond having a decent shooting attack.
Am I missing something?
He's probably your best bet for a Shooty lord, with a S6 AP2 longer ranged staff of light buff thing.
Plus flamer for overwatch and not too bad a price.
Bizzarely low durability and lacking in any combat ability whatsoever for a Lord of War character mind.
Hollismason wrote: That's not like ever changed however a barge lord now will because of the increase in WS hit the Knight more.
A barge lord in combat with either a IK or WK is in big trouble. He strikes at I2, while the others strike at I4 and 5 respectively. They also get to target the vehicle profile, and the IK's Strength D will shatter it with ease, while the WK's Strength 10 should not have much trouble either.
If you remove the Decurion(sp) formation from the equation, Necrons are a really well balanced codex....unfortunately, that formation is game breaking.
It's all a little absurd for casual play. Actively hard to build what I'd call a fun list without hitting like a sledgehammer.
I think it's easy to build a fun list, as in: has a lot of different units, bit of shooting, bit of cc, and doesn't spam one particular choice over and over. It's still going to hit pretty hard though.
That's... actually kind of ideal, come to think of it.
vipoid wrote: What are people's thoughts on the Stormlord?
He seemed good when I first looked at him. But, as I look again, I'm not so sure. His Lord of the Storm is now only once per game, doesn't affect the whole table and only does S6 hits (which are markedly less useful). And, other than that, he doesn't really do anything beyond having a decent shooting attack.
Am I missing something?
He's very tough, brings a good guaranteed Warlord Trait, gives guaranteed Night Fight (can be good against some armies), has some good shooting attacks, boosts Flayed Ones, and doesn't take up an HQ slot.
So, he's alright. If you just want a tough Warlord that will stay alive and help shoot, you could do worse. If you're bringing Flayed Ones and are thinking of Deep Striking them, he helps them get in and then then be on point. But overall, he's less good than he could be. Depends on how much you want what he brings.
One theme I'm also noticing: some of the more potent formations (like the canoptek one, or the judicator battalion) require one big mama model to be alive so they work. In case of the judicator one you could take a unit of stalkers, sure, but that gets really expensive... so mostly it'll be one I think. And the canoptek one straight up only has a single spyder as the focal point.
My point is: as good as those bonuses are, it's quite possible to shut them down. If you're worrying about how you'll ever kill Wraiths with a RP of 4+ in place - shoot the spyder, then get the wraiths. I actually like this as a balancing factor, and as a game mechanic.
Because it relied on spamming the same stuff over and over
The new Codex, so far, seems to have the great Blood Angel thing:
A lot of strong and good units, but designed in such a way that you want variety instead of spamming.
Because so far I haven't seen a single unit I would like to spam, they are all better in combination with other stuff.
Well, because you could spend the points on many many better things?
eh the Canoptek Formation with a unit of Spyders, Scarabs, and Wraiths is actually really good because if you take it with the Decurion formation, then you get a 4+ RP on all that are with in 12 which the Canoptek Spyders can keep up with the other units until they decide to murderize something.
3++, 4++ on T5 wraiths is pretty much worth the cost.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aldaris wrote: One theme I'm also noticing: some of the more potent formations (like the canoptek one, or the judicator battalion) require one big mama model to be alive so they work. In case of the judicator one you could take a unit of stalkers, sure, but that gets really expensive... so mostly it'll be one I think. And the canoptek one straight up only has a single spyder as the focal point.
My point is: as good as those bonuses are, it's quite possible to shut them down. If you're worrying about how you'll ever kill Wraiths with a RP of 4+ in place - shoot the spyder, then get the wraiths. I actually like this as a balancing factor, and as a game mechanic.
The Canoptek formation is 1 Unit of Spyders I believe.
Hollismason wrote:Why are people insisting Scarab Farm is dead?
Scarabs are more expensive and don't strip AV anymore, just auto-glance. Which is decent too, but not the same as turning a Land Raider into AV5 vehicle.
Aldaris wrote:One theme I'm also noticing: some of the more potent formations (like the canoptek one, or the judicator battalion) require one big mama model to be alive so they work. In case of the judicator one you could take a unit of stalkers, sure, but that gets really expensive... so mostly it'll be one I think. And the canoptek one straight up only has a single spyder as the focal point.
My point is: as good as those bonuses are, it's quite possible to shut them down. If you're worrying about how you'll ever kill Wraiths with a RP of 4+ in place - shoot the spyder, then get the wraiths. I actually like this as a balancing factor, and as a game mechanic.
The Canoptek formation has one UNIT of Spyders, which is 1-3 Spyders.
Problem with that is that you need to be within a certain range of the Spyder.
But he is the only unit in the Formation that can only walk 6" per turn, so perhaps you want to be lucky with running?
In other news: His TL-Particle Beamer is a lot, lot, cheaper, just like his other Wargear.
So Gloom Prism is cheaper ánd buffed in range.
Redemption wrote: Praetorians can take a Night Scythe as a dedicated transport, but the Night Scythe doesn't seem to state it can carry Jump Infantry, unless I'm overlooking the obvious.
Nightscythe can carry infantry. Jump infantry are just bulky, so will take up 2 slots. That means you have have a unit of 7 Praetorians in the NS, but not 8.
From 'Transports' in the main rulebook:
Only Infantry models can embark upon Transports (this does not include Jump or Jet Pack Infantry), unless specifically stated otherwise.
So as of right now, Praetorians have a Dedicated Transport that they can't use as it seems to have lost the exception from the previous codex that allowed it to carry Jump Infantry and Jetbikes.
Thanks for the correction. Seems like an oversight... hopefully it will be corrected with our obligatory faq that only fixes typos.
I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but the leaked image of the praetorians states that they "May select a Night Scythe as a Dedicated Transport". I'm think that's specific enough, don't you?
Well, because you could spend the points on many many better things?
eh the Canoptek Formation with a unit of Spyders, Scarabs, and Wraiths is actually really good because if you take it with the Decurion formation, then you get a 4+ RP on all that are with in 12 which the Canoptek Spyders can keep up with the other units until they decide to murderize something.
3++, 4++ on T5 wraiths is pretty much worth the cost.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aldaris wrote: One theme I'm also noticing: some of the more potent formations (like the canoptek one, or the judicator battalion) require one big mama model to be alive so they work. In case of the judicator one you could take a unit of stalkers, sure, but that gets really expensive... so mostly it'll be one I think. And the canoptek one straight up only has a single spyder as the focal point.
My point is: as good as those bonuses are, it's quite possible to shut them down. If you're worrying about how you'll ever kill Wraiths with a RP of 4+ in place - shoot the spyder, then get the wraiths. I actually like this as a balancing factor, and as a game mechanic.
The Canoptek formation is 1 Unit of Spyders I believe.
Preview pic in White Dwarf for the Decurion formation had a unit, not a solo Spyder.
Reanimating Scarabs are also more survivable as they advance through cover if you want to lag and farm a little.
Kangodo wrote: Problem with that is that you need to be within a certain range of the Spyder.
But he is the only unit in the Formation that can only walk 6" per turn, so perhaps you want to be lucky with running?
In other news: His TL-Particle Beamer is a lot, lot, cheaper, just like his other Wargear.
So Gloom Prism is cheaper ánd buffed in range.
I found people underestimated the twin linked particle Beamer before: Ideal for having something to do before you can close in and blowing the tar out of backfield terminators before the Spyders counter charged.
On the other hand, though they can have all three upgrades for it's old price now, there's more motive to just run than ever before with the buffing bubble in that formation.
changemod wrote: I found people underestimated the twin linked particle Beamer before: Ideal for having something to do before you can close in and blowing the tar out of backfield terminators before the Spyders counter charged.
On the other hand, though they can have all three upgrades for it's old price now, there's more motive to just run than ever before with the buffing bubble in that formation.
Not really underestimated, it was just too expensive Now that it is really cheap I am surely interested in taking it.
In other news: One of our Tactical Objectives requires us to issue a Challenge..
They are really pushing Challenges and melee-Crons, right?
With Obyron and Trazyn only working in challenges too.
Aldaris wrote: One theme I'm also noticing: some of the more potent formations (like the canoptek one, or the judicator battalion) require one big mama model to be alive so they work. In case of the judicator one you could take a unit of stalkers, sure, but that gets really expensive... so mostly it'll be one I think. And the canoptek one straight up only has a single spyder as the focal point.
My point is: as good as those bonuses are, it's quite possible to shut them down. If you're worrying about how you'll ever kill Wraiths with a RP of 4+ in place - shoot the spyder, then get the wraiths. I actually like this as a balancing factor, and as a game mechanic.
Two flaws with this:
1) That spyder gets the RP as well, correct? A MC, even a derpy one like spyders, with 4+ RP is still going to be one tough nut to crack. Its getting a cover save because of the range on the formation, as they kind of have to stick together, and its likely going to be surrounded by Wraiths, so you can't assault it. How do you get rid of it before those Wraiths are in your battle line? About the only army that can shoot it dead quickly is Tau.
2) Even without RP, multiple squads of Wraiths are brutally tough now and deal loads of damage in assault. Wraiths are probably the only unit in the new codex that I consider to be broken. Had they left them with phase shifters and not included that derpy Wraithflight rule, I think they would have been a fair unit that was still very effective but not OP. Had they left them as is from the last book but only included a points increase, they would have been fine, but the big buff along with what equates to be a price decrease if whip coils are taken, its just stupid broken.
I still believe it is a rules misinterpretation that all of the decurion gets +1 to RP i think only the royal court is meant .... or do I hope so - I think the wording is dubious. Anyone got a leak on that? But even then if it is dubious. I will wait with judging till the FAQ - didn't it specifically say that not all vehicles get better living metal but only the fliers? At least the tyrant hive guy said so( I think) ....that would be an easy transition saying if this is so specific the other bonus might be as well only to the royal court, wich I heard in earlier rumors too!!!
So do we have the price of points upgrades for the wargear yet? Like the price of a Warsycthe for a Lord, that kind of stuff, along with out artifacts etc.
I have read the rules for the Canoptek formation. and I have a question. it say to pick one option. and if in 6in of the spider all get the ability.
But if the spider is dead wouldn't you still pick a option and only one unit would get it instead of all. The spider is only needed for all to get it. It doesn't say it has to be alive for the option to be picked for just one of the units.
Anyway, I guess quite a few of those formations will be very popular as allies... canoptek harvest in an Eldar or Tau force, anyone?
I can already imagine the scenario when a bored Autarch flips on his holovid after dinner and sees a commercial... "Wraithbone technology taking a toll on the immortal souls of your loved ones? Still need big stompy things to satisfy your facepunchy needs? Then buy Canoptek murderbots! Our new line of Canoptek murderbots is flexible, durable and affordable. No need to invite foreign dignitaries and their bodyguards along for the ride - our murderbots are able to operate independently, and come with a 60 million year warranty! What are you waiting for? Leave your deceased in the infinity circuit and buy a formation of murderbots NOW!"
Seen the wraith formation.
You must remember that a wraith simply have to be within 12" of the spyder, that's not really hard to. And as long the spyder maintains its buff for the first two turns, it has done its job.
It kinda forces you to shoot the Spyder instead of the Wraiths. Do remember the Spyder is 3W T6 3+ and have the 4+ RP (+1 from Decurion) as well, it's not gonna be an easy kill and if you, well it's just 50 points that drew your fire from the wraiths.
Spyders aren't big as well, they're pretty easy to get out of LoS too.
MasterOfGaunts wrote: So, just to get it right... Wraith have their old basic 3 attacks with S6 rending, can get I5 are T5 with a3++ and 2W, move 12" ignoring difficult terain and cost 5 points less than a TH/SS Termie? I found them with T4 and 35 Points to be to good for their costs... now they are nearly broken. How should I beat a 3x6 Wraith (720 points) + Support (1130 points) Necron army with a nearly reasonable TAC list? It needs 27 bolter shots to kill 1 Wraith!!! And with 12"movement there is no chance to escape them. Even IK doesnt work anymore, cause of T8...
I really thought GW is on the right course with the last dexes but this is Eldar 2.0... maybe worse...
Tarpit them up with a cheap unit, or get inside buildings/vehicles. Even if they wreck the thing (I don't think they can explode non-open-top), then that's an extra turn where they can't assault you.
And when I rolled a test combat against them earlier, the Wraiths won whilst only losing half their numbers.
That's not a mathhammered average mind, just one combat I sat and rolled out with a dice cube.
Aldaris wrote:Sternguard should do pretty well against them, as well as splinter weaponry. Stuff like Wyverns should have potential as well. Basically, anything that's able to just push out raw numbers of wounds. Big hitters with few attacks won't do much, unless they're S10/ID.
The thing is not, that there arent any possibilities. There are also some Units, that can wrack WS without problems. The thing is, that nearly no option is really effective.
Tarpitting: yes, I can takea Ironclad and hope that they fail to kill it... well 18 Rending attacks... that might be 2 turns of assault. But first I have to get them... Tarpitting just works if the unit i want to tarpit has a low amount of attacks or is to weak to do serious demage on my tarpit. With 3 S6 rending attacks tarpitting is no option.
Sternguard... should be the best solution but they still need 11 shots in average to kill 1 and they cost as much as 6 wraith who will kill them before they can do enough damage.
Wyverns: this unit itself is to cheap for what it does and i dont know how many wounds we get on average if the wraith spread out. What was the strength of the wyvern? 5 --> so 12 hits needed for 1 kill
The only reliable thing I can think of is a warhound titan with 2 of this D weapons and hope for the six.
No really, they should cost 50 at minimum, but compared to lictors or other 50 Point units they would still be to cheap.
Okay, I saw the scan of the Decurion and +1 to RP all over is true...and everyone already seems to be interested in the most broken **** out there.
To me it is such a boring thought fighting an army and you hear the player say, okay I play a decurion detachement with the canptec formation and the scythe formation ... wow, how interesting - a fixed set of miniatures - you really wanna do that people?
It's funny, in a way. I've been so worried about MCs and it turns out that our major assault units wreck them. What we actually struggle with now is tough vehicles. Ironic in its own way (though reminiscent of Necrons in 5th before the new codex came along). That, and wraithknights, which still wreck face. However, there's a big proviso in this book: everything costs a lot of points. Want to fight flyrants? Best have Night Scythes, it's the only AA. Imperial Knights? Well, Wraiths will do, but otherwise the only other options are mass gauss, heavy destroyers or stalkers, none of which are massively effective. Then you want Tomb Blades, some HQ, maybe flayed ones... it adds up quicker than you think.
Seriously though, what's the plan VS Imperial Knights?
On a side note, I don't believe that the Decurion detachment is OP any more. I've been thinking about ways to break it and honestly, it's pretty hard. I want to see the EXACT wording for the Triarch formation (it is far less powerful if, for example, only things in that formation benefit from it) and the wraith one is nuts, but then you're also forced to take a minimum 479 points to unlock anything, likely more. I think people will find most of their lists without Wraiths are actually not that amazing any more.
Wraiths are way too much for a casual game now though IMO.
Hollismason wrote: The Decurion Detachment is legitimately a very strong Detachment. I kind of wonder if touraments will allow it.
It is a ******* way of controlling the player base and their purchases! Slowly guiding players more and more.
We will see if that plan pans out or if the price taxes on the formations are too high, what do you think people? Will players be bored after running block a some time and then block b??
Aldaris wrote: More than one unit would certainly be too much if you want to keep it within eyesight of "nice".
I know my unbound Canoptek army just got unpleasantly buffed. I was already struggling to play down the strengths of a theme list that has everyone fearless and multi wound.
Anpu-adom wrote: I really seeing more tournaments going to 1500 points... not only because of this but also because of Adamantium Lance.
This is one part I never understood: allow all that knights even that knight formation but restricting different other Superheavies - I think there is something very strange with tournaments allowing adamantium lance - even frontline gaming claiming knights are balanced? And no those tournaments will bow down to hinder that formation with a points decrease affecting everyone?
Anpu-adom wrote: I really seeing more tournaments going to 1500 points... not only because of this but also because of Adamantium Lance.
heck, I see pick up games going 1250 max where Necrons are invovled.
Necron Player: "Hey, I see you brought your (insert army here), want to get a game in?"
Other Player: "Uh, suuure....I only brought about 1250 points worth (while nudging the other box of minis under a table). You good with that?"
We will see if that plan pans out or if the price taxes on the formations are too high, what do you think people? Will players be bored after running block a some time and then block b??
I play with a guy that has entire Space Marine Companies, and another with an Adamantium Lance.
Players don't need much encouragement to buy large forces.
Hollismason wrote: The Decurion Detachment is legitimately a very strong Detachment. I kind of wonder if touraments will allow it.
(rolls eyes) its a detachment, and a codex detachment at that there is no way they arn't going to allow it. Is company of the great wolf not allowed because you can spam thunderwolf calvary? Is the Angel's Fury detachment banned because you can assault turn 1? It gets silly if taken to its logical end.
Even for the tournies that want to maintain the 2 detachment setup the decurion is still just one detachment at the end of the day and hardly cheap.
Anpu-adom wrote: I really seeing more tournaments going to 1500 points... not only because of this but also because of Adamantium Lance.
heck, I see pick up games going 1250 max where Necrons are invovled.
Necron Player: "Hey, I see you brought your (insert army here), want to get a game in?"
Other Player: "Uh, suuure....I only brought about 1250 points worth (while nudging the other box of minis under a table). You good with that?"
You do realise though that reanimation is even more powerful in small points games where every saved model is that many more points?
Oh, and Scarab Farms add 60 points to the table per turn when in range, if the Cron player is going that way.
Just saw the Eternity Gate-changes.
No more abusing DS'ing Monoliths to catapult Beasts and MC's to the enemy.
Not that it matters now the T-C'tan is nerfed to the ground..
Deshkar wrote: Seen the wraith formation.
You must remember that a wraith simply have to be within 12" of the spyder, that's not really hard to. And as long the spyder maintains its buff for the first two turns, it has done its job.
It kinda forces you to shoot the Spyder instead of the Wraiths. Do remember the Spyder is 3W T6 3+ and have the 4+ RP (+1 from Decurion) as well, it's not gonna be an easy kill and if you, well it's just 50 points that drew your fire from the wraiths.
Spyders aren't big as well, they're pretty easy to get out of LoS too.
MC's can run right? So that's an average movement of 9.5" per turn.
That's 2.5" less than Wraiths, which means you can practically keep them in range for 4 to 5 turns.
Perhaps even longer if you do a little 'line'.
Allowing us to have Fleet and Shred is kind of useless when the third option is a RP4+
What I totally forgot is the insanity that is called "RP on Scarabs".
Anpu-adom wrote: I really seeing more tournaments going to 1500 points... not only because of this but also because of Adamantium Lance.
heck, I see pick up games going 1250 max where Necrons are invovled.
Necron Player: "Hey, I see you brought your (insert army here), want to get a game in?"
Other Player: "Uh, suuure....I only brought about 1250 points worth (while nudging the other box of minis under a table). You good with that?"
You do realise though that reanimation is even more powerful in small points games where every saved model is that many more points?
Oh, and Scarab Farms add 60 points to the table per turn when in range, if the Cron player is going that way.
But the Reclaimation Legion buy-in eats up a significant portion of that, does it not?
Hollismason wrote: The Reclamation legion is legitimately terrifying with the change to Tomb Blades. I mean you don't really need anything other than that formation.
Also, remember you have 65point and 50point HQs or just get a Barge Lord.
It's not that huge of a buy in at all.
Except the HQ MUST be an Overlord/CCB. CCB isn't a bad buy in though. No way to deal with Wraithknights alone in that formation mind.
Hollismason wrote: The Reclamation legion is legitimately terrifying with the change to Tomb Blades. I mean you don't really need anything other than that formation.
Also bear in mind the formation has Move Through Cover, which renders Jetbikes immune to worrying about dangerous terrain tests so you have no reason not to buy shield vanes and Nebuloscopes and spend the entire game leaping from ruin to ruin for 3+/4+++/4++++
Automatically Appended Next Post: Royal Court seems the worst buy in. Need a Cryptek for your Lychguard? Hope you like having two overlords and a lord.
Eyjio wrote: Scarabs have a 6+ save now. Not that anyone ever got anything other than cover saves, but it might be relevant some day.
Are you sure? Did not see that.
changemod wrote: Isn't there the 1+ core detachment and 1 maximum per core detachment Royal Court to worry about? Going over 10 formations is unlikely under a 5000 point game or so, so I'd be less worried about needing to put the cap in.
That's easy to do if I make it a Formation. I make a selection-group for Auxiliary and increase the minimum by 1 for each Core, then I increase the maximum by 10 for each Core.
For Detachments we have the regular slots and I can set min/max for those, so I would have to create three new slots called 'Core', 'Auxiliary' and 'Command' where the min and max of the last two are determined by the amount of 'Core'-s you have. I am not even sure if that is possible with the program, let alone the endless weeks it would take me. But making it a Formation would only take me half an hour to an hour.
Let's hope I get the digital version Saturday-morning, I know how I am going to spend my weekend. Expect it to be ready on Sunday or so.
All of this sounds exciting, lots of builds....although, I hope crons are not super powered.....I don't want to be the new eldar.
One note, on those wanting crypteks - if you want more than 3.....(yes, looking at the page right now, go up and find it).
Reclamation Legion 1+ - Core Fomation.
Royal court (0-1 PER Reclamation Legion). - Command Formation.
THEN you can take 1-10 Other (Auxiliary) Formations.
While you can take 10 formations of flayed ones/etc. If you want more than 3 crypteks,
(look at the page, before you say "I thought....")
So, if you want more than 3 Crypteks, they have a tax of a lot more....
Overally, happy with the book, but clearly, a few things need to be faq'ed.
The biggest disappointments for me, personally, are;
No 3+ save on ctan for normal dakka.
Fixing Ordnance effect on the monolith (being forced to snapshot secondary weapons).
Relics: Feel less useful now, though Solar Thermasite is stronger now that we lack the 2+
Traits: These are fine, though I prefer the Codex-ones and I am curious about how they work with Zhandrekh.
Detachment: Still like it, the Codex also requires three Troops but gives a 4+ RP.
This Detachment could take a Cryptek on your important group and have a 4+ with rerolls on 1's.
Conclave of the Burning one: C'tan more expensive and Crypteks doubled in price. I don't see why I would want this now.. Sad :(
Zarathusa's Royal Decurion: Awesome! Too bad it does not have the "Replace Overlord with X, Y or Z" like the Codex has.
Anrakyr's Strategic Decurion: Not too bad.
Zandrekh in 5 Sheildguard,
Cryptek with Veil in the Sheildguard,
Royal Court:
Imhotek hanging back with the troops, MSU Immortals.
Obyron in 10 Scytheguard,
Cryptek with Solar Pulse in the Scytheguard,
Orikan in either of the Lychguard units,
Szeras buffing the MSU Immortals.
Strategy: The small Shieldguard unit turn one deep strikes, then the large Scytheguard unit precision deep strikes within 12 of them and pops off the Solar Pulse, ready to start smashing things up.
At some point Imhotek calls in Flayed One reinforcements.
Kangodo wrote: Let's not forget Exterminatus and what it does!
Relics: Feel less useful now, though Solar Thermasite is stronger now that we lack the 2+
Traits: These are fine, though I prefer the Codex-ones and I am curious about how they work with Zhandrekh.
Detachment: Still like it, the Codex also requires three Troops but gives a 4+ RP.
This Detachment could take a Cryptek on your important group and have a 4+ with rerolls on 1's.
Conclave of the Burning one: C'tan more expensive and Crypteks doubled in price. I don't see why I would want this now.. Sad :(
Zarathusa's Royal Decurion: Awesome! Too bad it does not have the "Replace Overlord with X, Y or Z" like the Codex has.
Anrakyr's Strategic Decurion: Not too bad.
I have to agree, the Mephrit detachment is not bad. The Solar Thermasite is quite good and almost a must have on a CCB lord. The god shackle is ok, but I just don't use C'Tan enough to bother with the formation. If I were to use the formation for kicks, I would take the god shackle obviously. The warscythe that gives precision strikes is pretty good as well, especially if you are afraid of the powerfist or other model that threatens to get through your AV 13 armor or low AP. Just focus your hits on the real threats so you don't have to rely on your 4++ to keep you alive. Would be nice if we still had a 2+. With the points saved from lowering the cost of CCBs, I can take all this extra expensive wargear and keep the same cost between codexes.
The other formations are ok, but you would have to use them in fairly high point games.
At the moment, the only reason I see for not taking it is price. Baseline, no upgrades, it's somewhere around 500 points for the Reclamation Legion. By the time you upgrade your Overlord, grab some Scythes/Ghost Arks, fill out the squads with more dudes, and upgrade your Tomb Blades, we're probably closer to ~700-900. That's not too bad, but then if you're playing in a 1500 point game, that only leaves room for one or two other formations (depending on which ones you're bringing). It's not like people are going to have the room to spam a good Reclamation Legion AND have 5 copies of the Canoptek Harvest formation, it adds up pretty quick.
Anpu-adom wrote: I really seeing more tournaments going to 1500 points... not only because of this but also because of Adamantium Lance.
heck, I see pick up games going 1250 max where Necrons are invovled.
Necron Player: "Hey, I see you brought your (insert army here), want to get a game in?"
Other Player: "Uh, suuure....I only brought about 1250 points worth (while nudging the other box of minis under a table). You good with that?"
You do realise though that reanimation is even more powerful in small points games where every saved model is that many more points?
Oh, and Scarab Farms add 60 points to the table per turn when in range, if the Cron player is going that way.
But the Reclaimation Legion buy-in eats up a significant portion of that, does it not?
The minimum costs are 80pts for the OL, 85 pts for immortals, 260pts for warriors and 48 pts for the tomb blades. So 473 before upgrades.
The Core is 479 base and they are all units you'd want to take anyway.
Unless you want to take a CAD so you only need three Troops, but both the Mephrit and Codex-benefits are too good for that.
Kangodo wrote: The Core is 479 base and they are all units you'd want to take anyway.
Unless you want to take a CAD so you only need three Troops, but both the Mephrit and Codex-benefits are too good for that.
I actually think we might see people take Formations without the Decurion. If you want to spam Destroyers, it's probably more economical to just take the Destroyer Cult 3+ times rather than paying for the Reclamation Legion, which doesn't really synergize with Destroyers much at all.
The same reason I don't take grav centurions; I don't want to be a jerk.
That is my biggest fear, I don't want a cheese codex. I want a good solid codex, that supports a lot of competitive* builds.
Now, I think the decurion is kind of cool, AND has a lot of cool bonuses - but I don't want it to be silly OP.
(* By competitive I mean player skill matters more than some cheesy combo and it does well in most situations as opposed to either folding like a paper napkin or erasing another player in one turn).
Kangodo wrote: The Core is 479 base and they are all units you'd want to take anyway.
Unless you want to take a CAD so you only need three Troops, but both the Mephrit and Codex-benefits are too good for that.
I actually think we might see people take Formations without the Decurion. If you want to spam Destroyers, it's probably more economical to just take the Destroyer Cult 3+ times rather than paying for the Reclamation Legion, which doesn't really synergize with Destroyers much at all.
One Destroyer Cult should suffice: That's 18 regular and 3 heavy destroyers max, and if you need more heavies you can take them from the CAD's heavy support slots.
More than that and you start taking increasingly useless Destroyer Lord taxes.
Wraiths being able to get a 3+ then a 4++ RP is insanely to good to not want take the Decurion detachments, especially since it comes with Tomb Blades. 110 point tax to ensure that your Wraiths make it into combat and you've still got multiple small MSU to go grab Objectives if you need to. Yeah, okay.
Are you really going to start shooting the Tomb Spyders when Wraiths are closing in on you? Like seriously, that's damned if you do damned if you don't choice.
Yes, I am going fire at this T7 which probably has Cover, comes with a 3+ and has a 4++, and not shoot these 6 Wraiths in front of it.
Wilson wrote: I'm kinda worried all of your necrons might be a little too good now :[
T5 wraiths and FNP that works against instant death is no fair:[[[
It's ok, us Tyranid players have Flyrants and FMC's to deal with Wraiths. Wraith logic - No CC = no party Haywire Templates automatically fry them to bitz
nids are going to have a hard time with the ctan as well (we might not see too many of those).
Also, Wraiths are beasts and fly over/through anything.
THEY chose what they attack - it would take quite the foolish player to let their wraiths get tarpitted.
one saving grace; if someone is running the formation and granting them RP....Kill the spyder.
I don't want to be cheese - I have zero problems with powerful combos that can be countered with smart play (as opposed to luck).
Wilson wrote: I'm kinda worried all of your necrons might be a little too good now :[
T5 wraiths and FNP that works against instant death is no fair:[[[
It's ok, us Tyranid players have Flyrants and FMC's to deal with Wraiths. Wraith logic - No CC = no party Haywire Templates automatically fry them to bitz
But yes, Necrons are looking to be very strong.
What do Haywire Templates do against T5 W2 Beasts with 3++?
All of it has Reanimation 4++ and your producing two Scarab bases a turn.
So on turn 1
6 Wraiths
8 Scarabs
2 Spyders
and turn 2 which is when they'll charge you
10 Scarabs
6 Wraiths
2 Spyders
What are you going to do charge them? You get close with a tarpit the Scarabs can charge the unit the Tomb Spyders going to run up and start adding bases to it. The restriction on Combat is apparently gone and you've gotta chew through a unit with a 4+ Reanimation protocol that works on every wound the base has.
Wilson wrote: I'm kinda worried all of your necrons might be a little too good now :[
T5 wraiths and FNP that works against instant death is no fair:[[[
It's ok, us Tyranid players have Flyrants and FMC's to deal with Wraiths. Wraith logic - No CC = no party Haywire Templates automatically fry them to bitz
But yes, Necrons are looking to be very strong.
What do Haywire Templates do against T5 W2 Beasts with 3++?
They be robots, instant short circuit Obviously a smart Tyranid player uses both sets of Devourers on the Wraiths if targetting them
Wilson wrote: I'm kinda worried all of your necrons might be a little too good now :[
T5 wraiths and FNP that works against instant death is no fair:[[[
It's ok, us Tyranid players have Flyrants and FMC's to deal with Wraiths. Wraith logic - No CC = no party Haywire Templates automatically fry them to bitz
But yes, Necrons are looking to be very strong.
What do Haywire Templates do against T5 W2 Beasts with 3++?
haywire counts as strength 10 vs anything with reanimation protocols.
What are Flyrants going to do, shoot ST6 at a model with a 3+ , 4+ that's T5.
Or
Shoot at a T7 with a 3+ , 4 +
Or Shoot at a 12 wound unit that's fearless and got a 6+, 4+.
That's not really a great choice.
That's ignoring you know, the guys that have ignore cover Twinlinked St5 weapons.
I really don't know why people are so hung up on the fact that the Spyders can't keep up.
Say I don't get first turn.
Spyders are with my Wraiths, I get the buff ace! Wraiths move and Spyder moves just in range so they are buffed for second turn.
Next turn Wraiths move another 12" and are in charge range of something usually, and probably all still alive (yay! that ones is rare) the Spyder and the scarabs move back and hold an objective - that objective is pretty much secure for the rest of the game and a full squadron of wraiths is kicking ass, where normally they'd have been punished.
Wilson wrote: I'm kinda worried all of your necrons might be a little too good now :[
T5 wraiths and FNP that works against instant death is no fair:[[[
It's ok, us Tyranid players have Flyrants and FMC's to deal with Wraiths. Wraith logic - No CC = no party Haywire Templates automatically fry them to bitz
But yes, Necrons are looking to be very strong.
What do Haywire Templates do against T5 W2 Beasts with 3++?
haywire counts as strength 10 vs anything with reanimation protocols.
Oh dang! I totally missed that. That's excellent for the Nids. One more reason to load up on E grubs.
For those concerned if Necrons are going to be strong to the point of gaining Eldar-like levels of criticism and struggling to find games because they're no fun to play against, I'll let you know if the local "that" guy suddenly abandons his Serpent Spam because "he's always loved Necrons and felt now was the perfect time to start an army" having shown no interest previously.
davethepak wrote: All of this sounds exciting, lots of builds....although, I hope crons are not super powered.....I don't want to be the new eldar.
One note, on those wanting crypteks - if you want more than 3.....(yes, looking at the page right now, go up and find it).
Reclamation Legion 1+ - Core Fomation.
Royal court (0-1 PER Reclamation Legion). - Command Formation.
THEN you can take 1-10 Other (Auxiliary) Formations.
While you can take 10 formations of flayed ones/etc. If you want more than 3 crypteks,
(look at the page, before you say "I thought....")
So, if you want more than 3 Crypteks, they have a tax of a lot more....
Overally, happy with the book, but clearly, a few things need to be faq'ed.
The biggest disappointments for me, personally, are;
No 3+ save on ctan for normal dakka.
Fixing Ordnance effect on the monolith (being forced to snapshot secondary weapons).
Not quite. Looking at the chart, it seems the Canoptek Harvest, Triarch and destroyer detachements branch off to the others.
So you start with the Royal Court and Reclamation Legion THEN at least one of those and THEN you can use the other detachments.
davethepak wrote: All of this sounds exciting, lots of builds....although, I hope crons are not super powered.....I don't want to be the new eldar.
One note, on those wanting crypteks - if you want more than 3.....(yes, looking at the page right now, go up and find it).
Reclamation Legion 1+ - Core Fomation.
Royal court (0-1 PER Reclamation Legion). - Command Formation.
THEN you can take 1-10 Other (Auxiliary) Formations.
While you can take 10 formations of flayed ones/etc. If you want more than 3 crypteks,
(look at the page, before you say "I thought....")
So, if you want more than 3 Crypteks, they have a tax of a lot more....
Overally, happy with the book, but clearly, a few things need to be faq'ed.
The biggest disappointments for me, personally, are;
No 3+ save on ctan for normal dakka.
Fixing Ordnance effect on the monolith (being forced to snapshot secondary weapons).
Not quite. Looking at the chart, it seems the Canoptek Harvest, Triarch and destroyer detachements branch off to the others.
So you start with the Royal Court and Reclamation Legion THEN at least one of those and THEN you can use the other detachments.
davethepak wrote: All of this sounds exciting, lots of builds....although, I hope crons are not super powered.....I don't want to be the new eldar.
One note, on those wanting crypteks - if you want more than 3.....(yes, looking at the page right now, go up and find it).
Reclamation Legion 1+ - Core Fomation.
Royal court (0-1 PER Reclamation Legion). - Command Formation.
THEN you can take 1-10 Other (Auxiliary) Formations.
While you can take 10 formations of flayed ones/etc. If you want more than 3 crypteks,
(look at the page, before you say "I thought....")
So, if you want more than 3 Crypteks, they have a tax of a lot more....
Overally, happy with the book, but clearly, a few things need to be faq'ed.
The biggest disappointments for me, personally, are;
No 3+ save on ctan for normal dakka.
Fixing Ordnance effect on the monolith (being forced to snapshot secondary weapons).
Not quite. Looking at the chart, it seems the Canoptek Harvest, Triarch and destroyer detachements branch off to the others.
So you start with the Royal Court and Reclamation Legion THEN at least one of those and THEN you can use the other detachments.
That's not how it works.
Look at the three detachments under the Reclamation Legion and the Royal court. They all lead into a single stem that branches off into the other detachments.
davethepak wrote: All of this sounds exciting, lots of builds....although, I hope crons are not super powered.....I don't want to be the new eldar.
One note, on those wanting crypteks - if you want more than 3.....(yes, looking at the page right now, go up and find it).
Reclamation Legion 1+ - Core Fomation.
Royal court (0-1 PER Reclamation Legion). - Command Formation.
THEN you can take 1-10 Other (Auxiliary) Formations.
While you can take 10 formations of flayed ones/etc. If you want more than 3 crypteks,
(look at the page, before you say "I thought....")
So, if you want more than 3 Crypteks, they have a tax of a lot more....
Overally, happy with the book, but clearly, a few things need to be faq'ed.
The biggest disappointments for me, personally, are;
No 3+ save on ctan for normal dakka.
Fixing Ordnance effect on the monolith (being forced to snapshot secondary weapons).
Not quite. Looking at the chart, it seems the Canoptek Harvest, Triarch and destroyer detachements branch off to the others.
So you start with the Royal Court and Reclamation Legion THEN at least one of those and THEN you can use the other detachments.
That's not how it works.
Look at the three detachments under the Reclamation Legion and the Royal court. They all lead into a single stem that branches off into the other detachments.
The one from the book is laid out entirely differently. Look at the link from a couple pages back.
toonkirby wrote: Hey guys. I've been lurking around for the past week or so but never bothered posting, but I feel like taking part in these discussions. Mis valientes guerreros posted a dropbox link to all of the screenshots, which include ones that haven't been posted here(basically just the named characters)https://www.dropbox.com/sh/eqcu5zyw668o31h/AACMO1VVmdcu-6m-WLHFzT9ia?dl=0
toonkirby wrote: Hey guys. I've been lurking around for the past week or so but never bothered posting, but I feel like taking part in these discussions. Mis valientes guerreros posted a dropbox link to all of the screenshots, which include ones that haven't been posted here(basically just the named characters)https://www.dropbox.com/sh/eqcu5zyw668o31h/AACMO1VVmdcu-6m-WLHFzT9ia?dl=0
davethepak wrote: Regardless of the 1-10, my point is that if you want more than 3 Crypteks, you have to take another reclamation legion command formation.
Also, in the codex, they are named and described better.
I don't think it's that surprising, Crypteks are completely different now, they're actual HQ units instead of gimmick tech dudes. You're not going to see lists with 8 Crypteks anymore.
toonkirby wrote: Hey guys. I've been lurking around for the past week or so but never bothered posting, but I feel like taking part in these discussions. Mis valientes guerreros posted a dropbox link to all of the screenshots, which include ones that haven't been posted here(basically just the named characters)https://www.dropbox.com/sh/eqcu5zyw668o31h/AACMO1VVmdcu-6m-WLHFzT9ia?dl=0
davethepak wrote: Regardless of the 1-10, my point is that if you want more than 3 Crypteks, you have to take another reclamation legion command formation.
Also, in the codex, they are named and described better.
You can take 5 Crypteks with a CAD and a Royal Court.
Leaves you stuck with a lord but nothing's perfect.
davethepak wrote: Regardless of the 1-10, my point is that if you want more than 3 Crypteks, you have to take another reclamation legion command formation.
Also, in the codex, they are named and described better.
I don't think it's that surprising, Crypteks are completely different now, they're actual HQ units instead of gimmick tech dudes. You're not going to see lists with 8 Crypteks anymore.
toonkirby wrote: Hey guys. I've been lurking around for the past week or so but never bothered posting, but I feel like taking part in these discussions. Mis valientes guerreros posted a dropbox link to all of the screenshots, which include ones that haven't been posted here(basically just the named characters)https://www.dropbox.com/sh/eqcu5zyw668o31h/AACMO1VVmdcu-6m-WLHFzT9ia?dl=0
I know someone answered about Mephrit and new Decurion not being compatable. However GW are selling the "Mephrit Reclaimation Decurion" pack. Cool name, or intent of rules?
Its been some time since I've played 40k so whats is the effect of changing the Tesla Destructor from Assault to Heavy? Do it mean that if i move the A barge it can only snapshot or am I mixing up the rules?
davethepak wrote: All of this sounds exciting, lots of builds....although, I hope crons are not super powered.....I don't want to be the new eldar.
One note, on those wanting crypteks - if you want more than 3.....(yes, looking at the page right now, go up and find it).
Reclamation Legion 1+ - Core Fomation.
Royal court (0-1 PER Reclamation Legion). - Command Formation.
THEN you can take 1-10 Other (Auxiliary) Formations.
While you can take 10 formations of flayed ones/etc. If you want more than 3 crypteks,
(look at the page, before you say "I thought....")
So, if you want more than 3 Crypteks, they have a tax of a lot more....
Overally, happy with the book, but clearly, a few things need to be faq'ed.
The biggest disappointments for me, personally, are;
No 3+ save on ctan for normal dakka.
Fixing Ordnance effect on the monolith (being forced to snapshot secondary weapons).
Not quite. Looking at the chart, it seems the Canoptek Harvest, Triarch and destroyer detachements branch off to the others.
So you start with the Royal Court and Reclamation Legion THEN at least one of those and THEN you can use the other detachments.
That's not how it works.
Look at the three detachments under the Reclamation Legion and the Royal court. They all lead into a single stem that branches off into the other detachments.
The one from the book is laid out entirely differently. Look at the link from a couple pages back.
Ah thank you. So it's not as restrictive as I thought it would be.
jesus, just read the Obelisk rules, you can choose to deploy it powered up or powered down, up means it acts normally, down means it can't move or shoot but gets a 3+ invul save, and you can choose to power it up at the start of any of your movement phases.
Which means that, unless deep striking it, it's always going to be deployed powered down to get that 3+ invul save and powered up at the start of the first Necron movement phase, on an AV14-all-round 6 HP unit with twenty S7 tesla shots a turn for the price of two barebones Leman Russ tanks.
Super glad they made that a Lord of War and not a Heavy Support unit...
jesus, just read the Obelisk rules, you can choose to deploy it powered up or powered down, up means it acts normally, down means it can't move or shoot but gets a 3+ invul save, and you can choose to power it up at the start of any of your movement phases.
Which means that, unless deep striking it, it's always going to be deployed powered down to get that 3+ invul save and powered up at the start of the first Necron movement phase, on an AV14-all-round 6 HP unit with twenty S7 tesla shots a turn for the price of two barebones Leman Russ tanks.
Super glad they made that a Lord of War and not a Heavy Support unit...
I mean, you aren't wrong, it CAN fire 20 S7 shots, but the chance of ever realistically getting that off are slim to none. The firing arc is extremely restricted by the height of the model, and the guns all face different directions. More realistically, you're getting 10 shots off a turn. IMO, it's still worse than the equivalent in annihilation barges.
Each orb can fire at a different target as it's a superheavy, so if it's Deep Striking it'll almost certainly be able to fire all four in most cases. Even at worse, you can angle it to typically get three at any single target (just like its pictured in its entry actually). Range might get finicky in that 20-24" range zone for all three, but wouldn't be hard to get 3 on a target typically.
haywire counts as strength 10 vs anything with reanimation protocols.
Whut. Really?
Shenanigans
Spoiler:
Haywire
Haywire weapons send out powerful electromagnetic pulses.
When a weapon with this special rule hits a vehicle, roll a D6 to determine the effect
rather than rolling for armour penetration normally:
D6 - Result
1 - No effect
2-5 - Glancing hit
6 - Penetrating hit
I just realized something there ... you HAVE to take at least 1 auxiliary formation!
So you cannot take only the Core, or the Core+Command, right?
Look at the leaked page, "Restrictions: The Detachment must include at least 1 Core choice. For each Core choice you must include between 1 and 10 Auxiliary choices, in any combination, and you may also include up to one Command choice. Only the datasheets found above may be included in this detachment"
Hollismason wrote: Wraiths being able to get a 3+ then a 4++ RP is insanely to good to not take.
Especially with T5. Nids are gonna have a hard time taking all of these buggers down.
Nothing much will change. Instead of wounding on 2s, the Flyrants will wound on 3's. Wraiths do not get RP so minimal change in tactics fighting them. Some of the other units are far more terrifying though.
It takes ~60 shots from a Dakka flyrant to wipe out a single unit of wraiths. That doesn't strike me as very efficient at all, especially considering that you can get 3 units of them for less than 800 points, or take a formation and grant them a 4+ RP on top of that for the first couple of turns.
BlaxicanX wrote: It takes ~60 shots from a Dakka flyrant to wipe out a single unit of wraiths. That doesn't strike me as very efficient at all, especially considering that you can get 3 units of them for less than 800 points.
How many shots to wipe them out when they have Reanimation Protocol 4+?
From what I gather all those things like Nebuloscopes, Dispersion Shields etc are listed in the wargear section as fluff explanations but the actual list of purchasable items for lords and crypteks is actually quite slim and doesn't include them.
MoonlightSonata wrote: From what I gather all those things like Nebuloscopes, Dispersion Shields etc are listed in the wargear section as fluff explanations but the actual list of purchasable items for lords and crypteks is actually quite slim and doesn't include them.
BlaxicanX wrote: It takes ~60 shots from a Dakka flyrant to wipe out a single unit of wraiths. That doesn't strike me as very efficient at all, especially considering that you can get 3 units of them for less than 800 points.
How many shots to wipe them out when they have Reanimation Protocol 4+?
60 strength 6 shots at twin-linked BS4 puts ~12 wounds on wraiths, after armor saves.
4+ RP will save half of those, so the Wraiths will take 6 wounds- three dead.
With 4+ RP, it would therefore take ~120 shots from Flyrant(s) to kill a unit of wraiths.
BlaxicanX wrote: It takes ~60 shots from a Dakka flyrant to wipe out a single unit of wraiths. That doesn't strike me as very efficient at all, especially considering that you can get 3 units of them for less than 800 points.
How many shots to wipe them out when they have Reanimation Protocol 4+?
60 strength 6 shots at twin-linked BS4 puts ~12 wounds on wraiths, after armor saves.
4+ RP will save half of those, so the Wraiths will take 6 wounds- three dead.
With 4+ RP, it would therefore take ~120 shots from a Flyrant to kill a unit of wraiths.
So 4 Hive Tyrants could in fact shoot 80 shots and possibly kill a full unit of 6 wraiths.
BlaxicanX wrote: It takes ~60 shots from a Dakka flyrant to wipe out a single unit of wraiths. That doesn't strike me as very efficient at all, especially considering that you can get 3 units of them for less than 800 points.
How many shots to wipe them out when they have Reanimation Protocol 4+?
60 strength 6 shots at twin-linked BS4 puts ~12 wounds on wraiths, after armor saves.
4+ RP will save half of those, so the Wraiths will take 6 wounds- three dead.
With 4+ RP, it would therefore take ~120 shots from a Flyrant to kill a unit of wraiths.
So 4 Hive Tyrants could in fact shoot 80 shots and possibly kill a full unit of 6 wraiths.
Well thats if a res orb doesnt get popped for a rerollable RP
Jaq Draco lives wrote: Just costed out that 6 Wraiths + Spyder + Scarabs as 418 points, am I right? If so that is well costed for balance IMO.
cut 56pts off of that.
That's *very* cheap for what you get, a T6 W3 MC with twelve wounds worth of T5 3++sv killy beasts and a screening blob that you can reinforce every turn, to say nothing of the formation benefits.
