DarknessEternal wrote: Doesn't matter how many times a C'tan can shoot, it's still most likely dead on Turn 1.
4 wounds at 7 Toughness with only a 4++ save just means you get to roll a lot of dice against wounds that still kill you. Every army runs spam guns.
Hide him behind something.
With true line of sight and a 6" move, that is a tricky prospect.
true true, but there is target saturation, hide him behind a monolith, or as I said later use the monoportal to pull him out of reserves the turn it deepstrikes (works under current faq)
I wanna know the order of operations for Deathmarks. Shooting a Grav Star immediately is amazing. Shooting them after they get to shoot first is a distraction.
DarknessEternal wrote: Doesn't matter how many times a C'tan can shoot, it's still most likely dead on Turn 1.
4 wounds at 7 Toughness with only a 4++ save just means you get to roll a lot of dice against wounds that still kill you. Every army runs spam guns.
Which is why the Conclave is even more appealing now. T8 makes it immune to Bolter equivalent fire, Crypteks are now 2W each to make it harder to get rid of that FNP, you can give them a Chronometron so they have their own Invuln Save, etc.
Conclave is a squad of T8, with 8 Wounds, 5+ FNP on the Shard/4+ Reanimation on the Crypteks, all with Invuln saves, with a possibly good shooting attack (and another really great shooting attack on the Nightbringer if you go with him). That's a scary-butt squad imo. What MC can rival that?
Red Corsair wrote: It's not open ground though, just treated as open ground. That was the issue before like he said.
So that means you're still trying to treat it as difficult terrain instead of open ground. Could it have been written better? Yes, like so many other rules GW writes but IMHO their intentions were clear.
Hollismason wrote: It kind of sucks though that Crypteks lost all of their fluff and flavor with the loss of Harbingers.
I never liked the harbingers and their fluff - I am happy those are gone. The new crypteks give me a better feeling of evil architects of power and crafting artifacts don't know why? All this new stuff sounds so much darker...
Hollismason wrote: Ugh can you guys just like wait until the Codex is actually out to have a pages long semantic debate.
I wanna talk about how awesome Deathmarks and Tomb Blades are now. Ignore Cover Gauss Weaponry, yessssssssssss. Deep STriking units that shoot other deep striking units, yesssssssss.
It's not like the Codex is going to clear it up, may as well get the semantics debate out the way.
Riiiiiight. But that's not what it says. It doesn't say they aren't slowed. It doesn't say they are or aren't affected. It says "when moving treat as open ground." If I'm treating it as open ground and open ground does not reduce initiative, then my iniitiative is not lowered.
Compare that with the beasts rules (who most definitely are reduced to I1 if they charge through difficult). It says ignore movement penalties or some such. This is very different wording to anything in the past.
Different wording, same thing.
plus they still assault a unit that is IN the Terrain, and not a single thing changes that fact.
is like the fething Gravtard argument all over again...
It explicitly states to treat it as open ground, what more do you want??
Would you have liked it better if it read "remove all difficult terrain from the board whenever a Wraith squads moves and return it into place afterwards"?
thephaeron wrote: Anyone know if you can take a CAD and then take a few of the small formations (e.g. destroyers) and still get the benefits for them?
Yes, you can take a normal CAD and then the formations, or you can take the CAD for the Mephrit Dynasty and those formations, or you can use the Decurion set up.
Also, there's no real reason to not play Mephrit if you wanna use the 3 wargear items they have.
changemod wrote: I wanna know the order of operations for Deathmarks. Shooting a Grav Star immediately is amazing. Shooting them after they get to shoot first is a distraction.
Don't know how effective it would be really, a full unit would put... what? About 2-3 unsaved wounds on them? That's certainly not bad, but not exactly a real solution.
thephaeron wrote: Anyone know if you can take a CAD and then take a few of the small formations (e.g. destroyers) and still get the benefits for them?
Of course, that's how Formations work.
Now that seems stupid: here it ays: may take a chronometron + it says can take items from the technoarcana - isn't the chronometron within the technoarcana??
Regarding Exterminatus Relics, I've looked a couple times and there is nothing stating that they replace the normal relic selection like most supplements do.
changemod wrote: I wanna know the order of operations for Deathmarks. Shooting a Grav Star immediately is amazing. Shooting them after they get to shoot first is a distraction.
1. Enemy unit Deep Strikes.
2. You Deep Strike.
3. At the end of the Movement, you shoot at any enemy unit that arrived from Reserves.
It's basically Interceptor with a DS-clause.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ClockworkZion wrote: Regarding Exterminatus Relics, I've looked a couple times and there is nothing stating that they replace the normal relic selection like most supplements do.
That is probably because it's the first Supplement to come out before the Codex.
Such a line will probably be in the new Codex.
But we can all hope
Riiiiiight. But that's not what it says. It doesn't say they aren't slowed. It doesn't say they are or aren't affected. It says "when moving treat as open ground." If I'm treating it as open ground and open ground does not reduce initiative, then my iniitiative is not lowered.
Compare that with the beasts rules (who most definitely are reduced to I1 if they charge through difficult). It says ignore movement penalties or some such. This is very different wording to anything in the past.
Different wording, same thing.
plus they still assault a unit that is IN the Terrain, and not a single thing changes that fact.
is like the fething Gravtard argument all over again...
It explicitly states to treat it as open ground, what more do you want??
Would you have liked it better if it read "remove all difficult terrain from the board whenever a Wraith squads moves and return it into place afterwards"?
No simply do it like Flip belts for Arlys, where it explicitly says they are not penalised by the terrain for their init, even though they also ignores/trait difficult terrain as open.
So tell me, why with the Arlys it is explicatly said like this, when for the Wraith it isn't?...
ClockworkZion wrote: Regarding Exterminatus Relics, I've looked a couple times and there is nothing stating that they replace the normal relic selection like most supplements do.
This is correct, it's just 3 extra items. 3 Really decent items.
thephaeron wrote: Anyone know if you can take a CAD and then take a few of the small formations (e.g. destroyers) and still get the benefits for them?
Yes, you can take a normal CAD and then the formations, or you can take the CAD for the Mephrit Dynasty and those formations, or you can use the Decurion set up.
Also, there's no real reason to not play Mephrit if you wanna use the 3 wargear items they have.
Sounds pretty sweet. Especially as you'd get reroll 1s for RP throughout as well
Riiiiiight. But that's not what it says. It doesn't say they aren't slowed. It doesn't say they are or aren't affected. It says "when moving treat as open ground." If I'm treating it as open ground and open ground does not reduce initiative, then my iniitiative is not lowered.
Compare that with the beasts rules (who most definitely are reduced to I1 if they charge through difficult). It says ignore movement penalties or some such. This is very different wording to anything in the past.
Different wording, same thing.
plus they still assault a unit that is IN the Terrain, and not a single thing changes that fact.
is like the fething Gravtard argument all over again...
It explicitly states to treat it as open ground, what more do you want??
Would you have liked it better if it read "remove all difficult terrain from the board whenever a Wraith squads moves and return it into place afterwards"?
No simply do it like Flip belts for Arlys, where it explicitly says they are not penalised by the terrain for their init, even though they also ignores/trait difficult terrain as open.
So tell me, why with the Arlys it is explicatly said like this, when for the Wraith it isn't?...
Simple, because Wraiths can't do it.
Cmon, it's GW. They're hardly consistent with their rules. It could be as you say, or they could have just missed it from the wraiths. Needs an FAQ (already...)
ClockworkZion wrote: Regarding Exterminatus Relics, I've looked a couple times and there is nothing stating that they replace the normal relic selection like most supplements do.
That is probably because it's the first Supplement to come out before the Codex.
Such a line will probably be in the new Codex.
But we can all hope
The book was probably written about the same time as the codex so that seems kind of like a silly thing to over look. But yes, it'll depend on how the codex is worded but at least that doesn't prevent them being used (as long as you're using the Exterminatus stuff to use them that is since you need to take those formations or that FOC to access them).
changemod wrote: I wanna know the order of operations for Deathmarks. Shooting a Grav Star immediately is amazing. Shooting them after they get to shoot first is a distraction.
Don't know how effective it would be really, a full unit would put... what? About 2-3 unsaved wounds on them? That's certainly not bad, but not exactly a real solution.
Cmon, it's GW. They're hardly consistent with their rules. It could be as you say, or they could have just missed it from the wraiths. Needs an FAQ (already...)
As for Deathmarks their carrying sniper rifles that wound on a 2+, they are still sniper rifles, pretty sure they get the precision shots and the AP2 bonus. Who says you'd put shots on the Centurions? The nasty part is the Psyker not the Centurions. This also slaughters Mawlocs and Demons, it's a insanely good ability.
I summon a unit of Daemons, My deathmarks immediately arrive and shoot them.
Tomb Blades carry Gauss guns that ignore cover and are twin linked. A unit of 10 is going to run you like 220 for the bells and whistles to have a unit put out 20 Twinlinked ST5 Cover Ignoring weapons that auto glance on a 6.
You don't think that'll kill a few Wave Serpents? Their Twin Linked as well, start shooting Fliers as well or anyone that relies on a cover save.
Hey so can anyone sanity check this to see if this might work?
Take a squad of Deathmarks and put them in Deepstrike reserve. Put a Destroyer Lord with them (As Jetpack infantry have Deepstrike).
Would the Destroyer Lord be able to arrive with them via Ethereal Intervention? I guess so since the rule only seems to refer to "...the Deathmark unit" and an IC becomes that unit for all intents and purposes.
If so take the Destroyer Lord with the Gauntlet of Conflagration (The S7 AP2 Template one use weapon) or just his Staff of Light and give your Deathmarks Preferred Enemy.
So you have your template (which wouldn't benefit from Hunters from Hyperspace due to the new wording) but also your Deathmarks hit on 3's rerolling 1's and they then wound on 2+ rerollable.
thephaeron wrote: Anyone know if you can take a CAD and then take a few of the small formations (e.g. destroyers) and still get the benefits for them?
Of course, that's how Formations work.
Now that seems stupid: here it ays: may take a chronometron + it says can take items from the technoarcana - isn't the chronometron within the technoarcana??
Technoarcana is just what they call their wargear section. The list that says who can buy what from the technoarcana is what matters, and it doesn't list the Chronometron or the Dispersion Shield.
Riiiiiight. But that's not what it says. It doesn't say they aren't slowed. It doesn't say they are or aren't affected. It says "when moving treat as open ground." If I'm treating it as open ground and open ground does not reduce initiative, then my iniitiative is not lowered.
Compare that with the beasts rules (who most definitely are reduced to I1 if they charge through difficult). It says ignore movement penalties or some such. This is very different wording to anything in the past.
Different wording, same thing.
plus they still assault a unit that is IN the Terrain, and not a single thing changes that fact.
is like the fething Gravtard argument all over again...
It explicitly states to treat it as open ground, what more do you want??
Would you have liked it better if it read "remove all difficult terrain from the board whenever a Wraith squads moves and return it into place afterwards"?
No simply do it like Flip belts for Arlys, where it explicitly says they are not penalised by the terrain for their init, even though they also ignores/trait difficult terrain as open.
So tell me, why with the Arlys it is explicatly said like this, when for the Wraith it isn't?...
Simple, because Wraiths can't do it.
Yay you showed us yet another rule saying "Not slowed by"
Not slowed by does NOT equal treats as open terrain.
Their carrying sniper rifles that wound on a 2+, they are still sniper rifles, pretty sure they get the precision shots and the AP2 bonus. Who says you'd put shots on the Centurions? The nasty part is the Psyker not the Centurions.
Point that. Still leaves someone like Draigo and the Centurions though, that's very scary even without the Psykers. It's just not completely ridiculous anymore.
Cmon, it's GW. They're hardly consistent with their rules. It could be as you say, or they could have just missed it from the wraiths. Needs an FAQ (already...)
ClockworkZion wrote: Regarding Exterminatus Relics, I've looked a couple times and there is nothing stating that they replace the normal relic selection like most supplements do.
This is correct, it's just 3 extra items. 3 Really decent items.
It's another way to cheat in another broken 2+ rerollable save actually. I really hope it is like everyone else and either/or.
Riiiiiight. But that's not what it says. It doesn't say they aren't slowed. It doesn't say they are or aren't affected. It says "when moving treat as open ground." If I'm treating it as open ground and open ground does not reduce initiative, then my iniitiative is not lowered.
Compare that with the beasts rules (who most definitely are reduced to I1 if they charge through difficult). It says ignore movement penalties or some such. This is very different wording to anything in the past.
Different wording, same thing.
plus they still assault a unit that is IN the Terrain, and not a single thing changes that fact.
is like the fething Gravtard argument all over again...
It explicitly states to treat it as open ground, what more do you want??
Would you have liked it better if it read "remove all difficult terrain from the board whenever a Wraith squads moves and return it into place afterwards"?
No simply do it like Flip belts for Arlys, where it explicitly says they are not penalised by the terrain for their init, even though they also ignores/trait difficult terrain as open.
So tell me, why with the Arlys it is explicatly said like this, when for the Wraith it isn't?...
Simple, because Wraiths can't do it.
Yay you showed us yet another rule saying "Not slowed by"
Not slowed by does NOT equal treats as open terrain.
Open terrain does not reduce initiative
I think the point is GW is pretty specific about their wording on how you get around the initiative penalty. Regardless I'd play with them being slowed and only change my tune on that if GW said they weren't.
Riiiiiight. But that's not what it says. It doesn't say they aren't slowed. It doesn't say they are or aren't affected. It says "when moving treat as open ground." If I'm treating it as open ground and open ground does not reduce initiative, then my iniitiative is not lowered.
Compare that with the beasts rules (who most definitely are reduced to I1 if they charge through difficult). It says ignore movement penalties or some such. This is very different wording to anything in the past.
Different wording, same thing.
plus they still assault a unit that is IN the Terrain, and not a single thing changes that fact.
is like the fething Gravtard argument all over again...
It explicitly states to treat it as open ground, what more do you want??
Would you have liked it better if it read "remove all difficult terrain from the board whenever a Wraith squads moves and return it into place afterwards"?
No simply do it like Flip belts for Arlys, where it explicitly says they are not penalised by the terrain for their init, even though they also ignores/trait difficult terrain as open.
So tell me, why with the Arlys it is explicatly said like this, when for the Wraith it isn't?...
Simple, because Wraiths can't do it.
Yay you showed us yet another rule saying "Not slowed by"
Not slowed by does NOT equal treats as open terrain.
Slayer le boucher wrote: No simply do it like Flip belts for Arlys, where it explicitly says they are not penalised by the terrain for their init, even though they also ignores/trait difficult terrain as open.
It does not say that they treat the terrain as open ground as the 'Wraithflight' rule does. If you want to continue this discussion in YMDC, there's more than enough information available to start a thread there.
Riiiiiight. But that's not what it says. It doesn't say they aren't slowed. It doesn't say they are or aren't affected. It says "when moving treat as open ground." If I'm treating it as open ground and open ground does not reduce initiative, then my iniitiative is not lowered.
Compare that with the beasts rules (who most definitely are reduced to I1 if they charge through difficult). It says ignore movement penalties or some such. This is very different wording to anything in the past.
Different wording, same thing.
plus they still assault a unit that is IN the Terrain, and not a single thing changes that fact.
is like the fething Gravtard argument all over again...
It explicitly states to treat it as open ground, what more do you want??
Would you have liked it better if it read "remove all difficult terrain from the board whenever a Wraith squads moves and return it into place afterwards"?
No simply do it like Flip belts for Arlys, where it explicitly says they are not penalised by the terrain for their init, even though they also ignores/trait difficult terrain as open.
So tell me, why with the Arlys it is explicatly said like this, when for the Wraith it isn't?...
Simple, because Wraiths can't do it.
Yay you showed us yet another rule saying "Not slowed by"
Not slowed by does NOT equal treats as open terrain.
Open terrain does not reduce initiative
I think the point is GW is pretty specific about their wording on how you get around the initiative penalty. Regardless I'd play with them being slowed and only change my tune on that if GW said they weren't.
You are relying on guessing intent.
RAW we have a clear way forward and that is Codex > BRB in cases of contradiction.
ClockworkZion wrote: Regarding Exterminatus Relics, I've looked a couple times and there is nothing stating that they replace the normal relic selection like most supplements do.
This is correct, it's just 3 extra items. 3 Really decent items.
It's another way to cheat in another broken 2+ rerollable save actually. I really hope it is like everyone else and either/or.
You can't take them on the named characters (some of which have a 2+), nor can you give any of the generic HQs a 2+. So no, it's not the same thing.
Also as long as it isn't a re-rollable 2++ it's not that big of a deal.
Riiiiiight. But that's not what it says. It doesn't say they aren't slowed. It doesn't say they are or aren't affected. It says "when moving treat as open ground." If I'm treating it as open ground and open ground does not reduce initiative, then my iniitiative is not lowered.
Compare that with the beasts rules (who most definitely are reduced to I1 if they charge through difficult). It says ignore movement penalties or some such. This is very different wording to anything in the past.
Different wording, same thing.
plus they still assault a unit that is IN the Terrain, and not a single thing changes that fact.
is like the fething Gravtard argument all over again...
It explicitly states to treat it as open ground, what more do you want??
Would you have liked it better if it read "remove all difficult terrain from the board whenever a Wraith squads moves and return it into place afterwards"?
No simply do it like Flip belts for Arlys, where it explicitly says they are not penalised by the terrain for their init, even though they also ignores/trait difficult terrain as open.
So tell me, why with the Arlys it is explicatly said like this, when for the Wraith it isn't?...
Simple, because Wraiths can't do it.
Yay you showed us yet another rule saying "Not slowed by"
Not slowed by does NOT equal treats as open terrain.
Open terrain does not reduce initiative
I think the point is GW is pretty specific about their wording on how you get around the initiative penalty. Regardless I'd play with them being slowed and only change my tune on that if GW said they weren't.
You are relying on guessing intent.
RAW we have a clear way forward and that is Codex > BRB in cases of contradiction.
I'm not guessing anything about their intent. I said what I thought the other person's point was and then said how I will play it until I see a FAQ that says otherwise.
No simply do it like Flip belts for Arlys, where it explicitly says they are not penalised by the terrain for their init, even though they also ignores/trait difficult terrain as open. [img]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-G7FUn8mvrcA/VMfe9l74ZqI/AAAAAAABXlA/0VjOTZqJqSg/s1600/380801802_20150127_183404_122_184lo.jpg[img] So tell me, why with the Arlys it is explicatly said like this, when for the Wraith it isn't?... Simple, because Wraiths can't do it.
Uhm.. what? Flip Belts: -Not slowed by DT. -Not penalized in Initiative.
Wraiths: -Treat DT as if it were open ground.
Can you spot the difference? You are, again, acting as if "treat it as open ground" is the same as "not slowed" while in fact it means a lot more than that!
ClockworkZion wrote: I'm not guessing anything about their intent. I said what I thought the other person's point was and then said how I will play it until I see a FAQ that says otherwise.
That's fine! But I don't want to see you complaining about their Whipcoils not working in terrain
ClockworkZion wrote: Regarding Exterminatus Relics, I've looked a couple times and there is nothing stating that they replace the normal relic selection like most supplements do.
This is correct, it's just 3 extra items. 3 Really decent items.
It's another way to cheat in another broken 2+ rerollable save actually. I really hope it is like everyone else and either/or.
You can't take them on the named characters (some of which have a 2+), nor can you give any of the generic HQs a 2+. So no, it's not the same thing.
Also as long as it isn't a re-rollable 2++ it's not that big of a deal.
I'm speaking in regard to using both relic lists. If so you can use the 2+ relic armor with Thermasite and get a 2+ rerollable save. I don't think any 2+ rerollable type saves are acceptable.
Riiiiiight. But that's not what it says. It doesn't say they aren't slowed. It doesn't say they are or aren't affected. It says "when moving treat as open ground." If I'm treating it as open ground and open ground does not reduce initiative, then my iniitiative is not lowered.
Compare that with the beasts rules (who most definitely are reduced to I1 if they charge through difficult). It says ignore movement penalties or some such. This is very different wording to anything in the past.
Different wording, same thing.
plus they still assault a unit that is IN the Terrain, and not a single thing changes that fact.
is like the fething Gravtard argument all over again...
It explicitly states to treat it as open ground, what more do you want??
Would you have liked it better if it read "remove all difficult terrain from the board whenever a Wraith squads moves and return it into place afterwards"?
No simply do it like Flip belts for Arlys, where it explicitly says they are not penalised by the terrain for their init, even though they also ignores/trait difficult terrain as open.
So tell me, why with the Arlys it is explicatly said like this, when for the Wraith it isn't?...
Simple, because Wraiths can't do it.
Yay you showed us yet another rule saying "Not slowed by"
Not slowed by does NOT equal treats as open terrain.
Open terrain does not reduce initiative
I think the point is GW is pretty specific about their wording on how you get around the initiative penalty. Regardless I'd play with them being slowed and only change my tune on that if GW said they weren't.
You are relying on guessing intent.
RAW we have a clear way forward and that is Codex > BRB in cases of contradiction.
changemod wrote: I wanna know the order of operations for Deathmarks. Shooting a Grav Star immediately is amazing. Shooting them after they get to shoot first is a distraction.
Don't know how effective it would be really, a full unit would put... what? About 2-3 unsaved wounds on them? That's certainly not bad, but not exactly a real solution.
Where's that picture from?
And it depends what deep struck in, I guess.
Second this question, Freak Factory doesn't have Deathmarks posted and that's where most of the screenshots have been so far.
As for Deathmarks their carrying sniper rifles that wound on a 2+, they are still sniper rifles, pretty sure they get the precision shots and the AP2 bonus. Who says you'd put shots on the Centurions? The nasty part is the Psyker not the Centurions. This also slaughters Mawlocs and Demons, it's a insanely good ability.
I summon a unit of Daemons, My deathmarks immediately arrive and shoot them.
Tomb Blades carry Gauss guns that ignore cover and are twin linked. A unit of 10 is going to run you like 220 for the bells and whistles to have a unit put out 20 Twinlinked ST5 Cover Ignoring weapons that auto glance on a 6.
You don't think that'll kill a few Wave Serpents? Their Twin Linked as well, start shooting Fliers as well or anyone that relies on a cover save.
Mawlocs don't care since they would have aready done damage or missed the target...
As for Deathmarks their carrying sniper rifles that wound on a 2+, they are still sniper rifles, pretty sure they get the precision shots and the AP2 bonus. Who says you'd put shots on the Centurions? The nasty part is the Psyker not the Centurions. This also slaughters Mawlocs and Demons, it's a insanely good ability.
I summon a unit of Daemons, My deathmarks immediately arrive and shoot them.
Tomb Blades carry Gauss guns that ignore cover and are twin linked. A unit of 10 is going to run you like 220 for the bells and whistles to have a unit put out 20 Twinlinked ST5 Cover Ignoring weapons that auto glance on a 6.
You don't think that'll kill a few Wave Serpents? Their Twin Linked as well, start shooting Fliers as well or anyone that relies on a cover save.
Mawlocs don't care since they would have aready done damage or missed the target...
Well if they missed... Mawlocs can dig back into ongoing reserves and try again, yes?
ClockworkZion wrote: Regarding Exterminatus Relics, I've looked a couple times and there is nothing stating that they replace the normal relic selection like most supplements do.
This is correct, it's just 3 extra items. 3 Really decent items.
It's another way to cheat in another broken 2+ rerollable save actually. I really hope it is like everyone else and either/or.
You can't take them on the named characters (some of which have a 2+), nor can you give any of the generic HQs a 2+. So no, it's not the same thing.
Also as long as it isn't a re-rollable 2++ it's not that big of a deal.
I'm speaking in regard to using both relic lists. If so you can use the 2+ relic armor with Thermasite and get a 2+ rerollable save. I don't think any 2+ rerollable type saves are acceptable.
Riiiiiight. But that's not what it says. It doesn't say they aren't slowed. It doesn't say they are or aren't affected. It says "when moving treat as open ground." If I'm treating it as open ground and open ground does not reduce initiative, then my iniitiative is not lowered.
Compare that with the beasts rules (who most definitely are reduced to I1 if they charge through difficult). It says ignore movement penalties or some such. This is very different wording to anything in the past.
Different wording, same thing.
plus they still assault a unit that is IN the Terrain, and not a single thing changes that fact.
is like the fething Gravtard argument all over again...
It explicitly states to treat it as open ground, what more do you want??
Would you have liked it better if it read "remove all difficult terrain from the board whenever a Wraith squads moves and return it into place afterwards"?
No simply do it like Flip belts for Arlys, where it explicitly says they are not penalised by the terrain for their init, even though they also ignores/trait difficult terrain as open.
So tell me, why with the Arlys it is explicatly said like this, when for the Wraith it isn't?...
Simple, because Wraiths can't do it.
Yay you showed us yet another rule saying "Not slowed by"
Not slowed by does NOT equal treats as open terrain.
Open terrain does not reduce initiative
I think the point is GW is pretty specific about their wording on how you get around the initiative penalty. Regardless I'd play with them being slowed and only change my tune on that if GW said they weren't.
You are relying on guessing intent.
RAW we have a clear way forward and that is Codex > BRB in cases of contradiction.
First off Yakface rule #3 is not in the rulebook so it's merely a guide without any weight.
And, secondly, we have a case of genuine logical contradiction and we have a rule RAW to apply in these cases.
You can't parse the assault rule and come back with 'yes this unit is going through difficult terrain' without ignoring the codex rule to treat difficult terrain as open ground.
ClockworkZion wrote: Regarding Exterminatus Relics, I've looked a couple times and there is nothing stating that they replace the normal relic selection like most supplements do.
This is correct, it's just 3 extra items. 3 Really decent items.
It's another way to cheat in another broken 2+ rerollable save actually. I really hope it is like everyone else and either/or.
You can't take them on the named characters (some of which have a 2+), nor can you give any of the generic HQs a 2+. So no, it's not the same thing.
Also as long as it isn't a re-rollable 2++ it's not that big of a deal.
I'm speaking in regard to using both relic lists. If so you can use the 2+ relic armor with Thermasite and get a 2+ rerollable save. I don't think any 2+ rerollable type saves are acceptable.
I disagree. I mean, yeah, it can be a little strong, but with all the AP2/AP1 in the game (especially in challenges, which is where you'd want this guy) it's not going to help any. It really just makes him more resilient to basic weapon fire more than anything.
Quick question. The Ghost Ark transport capacity is 10, and it specifically states that it can only carry warriors and necron characters with the infantry type. However since the min unit size for warriors is 10, there's no way to initially transport an attached character correct?
Oh for goodness sake, can we drop it? This is a rumours thread, not "debate how wraiths might work". That's a YMDC thread for another time. It's clogging up the useful information and questions.
Voodoo_Chile wrote: Hey so can anyone sanity check this to see if this might work?
Take a squad of Deathmarks and put them in Deepstrike reserve. Put a Destroyer Lord with them (As Jetpack infantry have Deepstrike).
Would the Destroyer Lord be able to arrive with them via Ethereal Intervention? I guess so since the rule only seems to refer to "...the Deathmark unit" and an IC becomes that unit for all intents and purposes.
If so take the Destroyer Lord with the Gauntlet of Conflagration (The S7 AP2 Template one use weapon) or just his Staff of Light and give your Deathmarks Preferred Enemy.
So you have your template (which wouldn't benefit from Hunters from Hyperspace due to the new wording) but also your Deathmarks hit on 3's rerolling 1's and they then wound on 2+ rerollable.
Honestly, I don't think ethereal intervention confers. Cool trick if it works.
That said, having dismissed them earlier, Crypteks may well be my HQ of choice. Consider that with 4+ RP and a 3+ save, you effectively give a unit a 2+. Now take the chronomatron for a 5++, which is effectively a 3++ VS S7 or less, and a 5++ reroll vs S8 up... Immortals would be as tough as terminators statistically. That's quite significant. I'm sure there are better uses too...
Unix wrote: Quick question. The Ghost Ark transport capacity is 10, and it specifically states that it can only carry warriors and necron characters with the infantry type. However since the min unit size for warriors is 10, there's no way to initially transport an attached character correct?
Take it as a Fast Attack option (or as a DT and don't put Warriors in it) and then load some Lords/Overlords/etc into it by themselves.
If you take the Royal Court Formation, you can get a good number of Lords/Crypteks and load them up. It's expensive, though.
Unix wrote: Quick question. The Ghost Ark transport capacity is 10, and it specifically states that it can only carry warriors and necron characters with the infantry type. However since the min unit size for warriors is 10, there's no way to initially transport an attached character correct?
As far as we can see, yes. It most likely is an oversight by someone who didn't understand why GA used to be able to house 12 models.
Hollismason wrote: They're also beasts, it's not a issue. More people should be happier with the Deathmarks if that's their ability to fire on a unit that deep strikes in from reserve.
Note that has no effect on the Gating CentStar that someone mentioned earlier (unless its the first turn Deepstrike)
Galorian wrote: Chronometron is a Cryptek upgrade option listed in their profile page.
They should really make a more boss like model giving how usefull they become - i cannot stand that ape like idiot egyption beard old and undetailed and unimpressive dull look (sry)
I used Puppetswar Droids as my Cryteks, and Krolmech's Technomancer Staves heads on the 2 handed Necron staffs. Much nicer than the Tomb King in space look.
I've been doing a little math (question: is the Rod of Covenant now Str User instead of Str +1?), and while Wraiths have been buffed, Praetorians and Flayed Ones have been buffed more, making them alternative rapid assault units (counting ability to Infilitrate as "rapid"). Praetorians do more damage than the others to "hard" targets (most MCs, heavy infantry), Flayed Ones destroy pretty much any light infantry they touch (outfighting Ork Boyz by a sizeable margin), and Wraiths are in the middle.
Eyjio wrote: Oh for goodness sake, can we drop it? This is a rumours thread, not "debate how wraiths might work". That's a YMDC thread for another time. It's clogging up the useful information and questions.
Voodoo_Chile wrote: Hey so can anyone sanity check this to see if this might work?
Take a squad of Deathmarks and put them in Deepstrike reserve. Put a Destroyer Lord with them (As Jetpack infantry have Deepstrike).
Would the Destroyer Lord be able to arrive with them via Ethereal Intervention? I guess so since the rule only seems to refer to "...the Deathmark unit" and an IC becomes that unit for all intents and purposes.
If so take the Destroyer Lord with the Gauntlet of Conflagration (The S7 AP2 Template one use weapon) or just his Staff of Light and give your Deathmarks Preferred Enemy.
So you have your template (which wouldn't benefit from Hunters from Hyperspace due to the new wording) but also your Deathmarks hit on 3's rerolling 1's and they then wound on 2+ rerollable.
Honestly, I don't think ethereal intervention confers. Cool trick if it works.
That said, having dismissed them earlier, Crypteks may well be my HQ of choice. Consider that with 4+ RP and a 3+ save, you effectively give a unit a 2+. Now take the chronomatron for a 5++, which is effectively a 3++ VS S7 or less, and a 5++ reroll vs S8 up... Immortals would be as tough as terminators statistically. That's quite significant. I'm sure there are better uses too...
Yeah, I think this reanimate immediately for every individual wound thing looks well suited to making Immortals and elite units durable and letting Warriors be relatively disposable gunlines.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alcibiades wrote: I've been doing a little math (question: is the Rod of Covenant now Str User instead of Str +1?), and while Wraiths have been buffed, Praetorians and Flayed Ones have been buffed more, making them alternative rapid assault units (counting ability to Infilitrate as "rapid"). Praetorians do more damage than the others to "hard" targets (most MCs, heavy infantry), Flayed Ones destroy pretty much any light infantry they touch (outfighting Ork Boyz by a sizeable margin), and Wraiths are in the middle.
And Scytheguard, whilst slower, hit most like a truck.
If you want to get them across the board, Night Scythe or once per game teleport item them, then fire off a Solar Pulse so they can avoid getting shot up on arrival to useful range.
Alcibiades wrote: I've been doing a little math (question: is the Rod of Covenant now Str User instead of Str +1?), and while Wraiths have been buffed, Praetorians and Flayed Ones have been buffed more, making them alternative rapid assault units (counting ability to Infilitrate as "rapid"). Praetorians do more damage than the others to "hard" targets (most MCs, heavy infantry), Flayed Ones destroy pretty much any light infantry they touch (outfighting Ork Boyz by a sizeable margin), and Wraiths are in the middle.
Yes, but there's important things to consider too:
1) Flayed ones lack fearless, meaning whilst fun they are quite vulnerable to fleeing like cowards
2) Praetorians may hurt big things better, but they sure die a lot faster too. 2 wounds and 3++ really helps wraiths survive
I think they're worth trying, but Wraiths didn't get where they are because they do the most damage, they're awesome because they deal serious damage and are freaking insanely durable.
Unix wrote: Quick question. The Ghost Ark transport capacity is 10, and it specifically states that it can only carry warriors and necron characters with the infantry type. However since the min unit size for warriors is 10, there's no way to initially transport an attached character correct?
As far as we can see, yes. It most likely is an oversight by someone who didn't understand why GA used to be able to house 12 models.
Yeah, Flayed ones don't have fearless - but 130 points for a 10 model infiltrating unit that dishes out 50 S4 shred attacks on the charge is still pretty good.
Unix wrote: Quick question. The Ghost Ark transport capacity is 10, and it specifically states that it can only carry warriors and necron characters with the infantry type. However since the min unit size for warriors is 10, there's no way to initially transport an attached character correct?
As far as we can see, yes. It most likely is an oversight by someone who didn't understand why GA used to be able to house 12 models.
When could Ghost Arks carry 12 models?
Never, but Warrior used to be minimum 5 models, so you could add in characters if you wanted. Now they are minimum 10. It's the warriros that changed, not the Ghost Ark.
Unix wrote: Quick question. The Ghost Ark transport capacity is 10, and it specifically states that it can only carry warriors and necron characters with the infantry type. However since the min unit size for warriors is 10, there's no way to initially transport an attached character correct?
As far as we can see, yes. It most likely is an oversight by someone who didn't understand why GA used to be able to house 12 models.
When could Ghost Arks carry 12 models?
Never, but Warrior used to be minimum 5 models, so you could add in characters if you wanted. Now they are minimum 10. It's the warriros that changed, not the Ghost Ark.
Unix wrote: Quick question. The Ghost Ark transport capacity is 10, and it specifically states that it can only carry warriors and necron characters with the infantry type. However since the min unit size for warriors is 10, there's no way to initially transport an attached character correct?
As far as we can see, yes. It most likely is an oversight by someone who didn't understand why GA used to be able to house 12 models.
When could Ghost Arks carry 12 models?
Never, but Warrior used to be minimum 5 models, so you could add in characters if you wanted. Now they are minimum 10. It's the warriros that changed, not the Ghost Ark.
Unix wrote: Quick question. The Ghost Ark transport capacity is 10, and it specifically states that it can only carry warriors and necron characters with the infantry type. However since the min unit size for warriors is 10, there's no way to initially transport an attached character correct?
As far as we can see, yes. It most likely is an oversight by someone who didn't understand why GA used to be able to house 12 models.
When could Ghost Arks carry 12 models?
Never, but Warrior used to be minimum 5 models, so you could add in characters if you wanted. Now they are minimum 10. It's the warriros that changed, not the Ghost Ark.
So is the GA still Warriors only?
Spoiler:
"Transport Capacity: Ten models. It can only carry Necron Warrios and Necron characters with the infantry unit type."
Wouldn´t that mean that you can still unload the warriors and load it up with crypteks? Cryptek Partybus Ho!
Slayer le boucher wrote: No simply do it like Flip belts for Arlys, where it explicitly says they are not penalised by the terrain for their init, even though they also ignores/trait difficult terrain as open.
It does not say that they treat the terrain as open ground as the 'Wraithflight' rule does. If you want to continue this discussion in YMDC, there's more than enough information available to start a thread there.
Sometimes i wish i had the english version of the rules to check something.
How is the rules for jump infantry and jumppack/jets( the tau thing) worded?
Because when i read it in my rulebook (french version), the wording is exactly the same as the Wraithflight, but you don't see Jump infantry etc, not having their Init impaired if they don't have nades.
I think its even a step towards the "not intended for this" since the way its worded for Jump infantry is "when a model use his jump( for moving, assaulting, or retreating), it can move over all other models and terrains...", still you don't see Jump infantry not been affected by the terrain when assaulting.
So i would like a clarification as of how it is worded in the rulebook page 65 and 66.
Sir, the Blitz rule specifies the same Moving Rules for Wraiths, and the Solitaire actually fights at Initiative thanks to the Flip Belt that negates Initiative Penalties for charging through difficult terrain.
The Wraiths do not fight at Initiative, PERIOD
Slayer le boucher wrote: No simply do it like Flip belts for Arlys, where it explicitly says they are not penalised by the terrain for their init, even though they also ignores/trait difficult terrain as open.
It does not say that they treat the terrain as open ground as the 'Wraithflight' rule does. If you want to continue this discussion in YMDC, there's more than enough information available to start a thread there.
Sometimes i wish i had the english version of the rules to check something.
How is the rules for jump infantry and jumppack/jets( the tau thing) worded?
Because when i read it in my rulebook (french version), the wording is exactly the same as the Wraithflight, but you don't see Jump infantry etc, not having their Init impaired if they don't have nades.
I think its even a step towards the "not intended for this" since the way its worded for Jump infantry is "when a model use his jump( for moving, assaulting, or retreating), it can move over all other models and terrains...", still you don't see Jump infantry not been affected by the terrain when assaulting.
So i would like a clarification as of how it is worded in the rulebook page 65 and 66.
Spoiler:
When using its jump pack (whether moving, charging or Falling Back, as we’ll discuss in a
moment) a model can move over all other models and all terrain freely. However, if the
model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test.
Jump models cannot end their move on top of other models and can only end their move
on top of impassable terrain if it is actually possible to place the models on top of it. If
they do this, however, they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain.
Sir, the Blitz rule specifies the same Moving Rules for Wraiths, and the Solitaire actually fights at Initiative thanks to the Flip Belt that negates Initiative Penalties for charging through difficult terrain.
The Wraiths do not fight at Initiative, PERIOD
Do we know the stats of the Triarch Stalker, and has it and its wargear gone down any in cost? I'm brainstorming some lists and itching for more knowledge.
Drakmord wrote: Do we know the stats of the Triarch Stalker, and has it and its wargear gone down any in cost? I'm brainstorming some lists and itching for more knowledge.
I was curious about this too. I love the model, but it was so overpriced.
Drakmord wrote: Do we know the stats of the Triarch Stalker, and has it and its wargear gone down any in cost? I'm brainstorming some lists and itching for more knowledge.
I was curious about this too. I love the model, but it was so overpriced.
Sir, the Blitz rule specifies the same Moving Rules for Wraiths, and the Solitaire actually fights at Initiative thanks to the Flip Belt that negates Initiative Penalties for charging through difficult terrain.
The Wraiths do not fight at Initiative, PERIOD
Game
Set
Match
Again. GW aren't renowned for writing clear, consistent rules. This doesn't mean anything in relation to the Wraiths. It needs an FAQ.
Drakmord wrote: Do we know the stats of the Triarch Stalker, and has it and its wargear gone down any in cost? I'm brainstorming some lists and itching for more knowledge.
I was curious about this too. I love the model, but it was so overpriced.
Awesome! Have an exalt sir!
It's cheaper. And if I read it right, the +1 ballistic skill is "always on" for units w/n 6" unless snapshotting.
changemod wrote: I wanna know the order of operations for Deathmarks. Shooting a Grav Star immediately is amazing. Shooting them after they get to shoot first is a distraction.
Depends, rules and YMDC cant decide if using Gate of Infinity counts as coming from Deep Strike Reserves or not.
Drakmord wrote: Do we know the stats of the Triarch Stalker, and has it and its wargear gone down any in cost? I'm brainstorming some lists and itching for more knowledge.
I was curious about this too. I love the model, but it was so overpriced.
Awesome! Have an exalt sir!
It's cheaper. And if I read it right, the +1 ballistic skill is "always on" for units w/n 6" unless snapshotting.
Sir, the Blitz rule specifies the same Moving Rules for Wraiths, and the Solitaire actually fights at Initiative thanks to the Flip Belt that negates Initiative Penalties for charging through difficult terrain.
The Wraiths do not fight at Initiative, PERIOD
Game
Set
Match
GW often puts in redundant things on models for completeness' sake if the model is supposed to have them.
So I'm confused, any one have confirmation on Quantum Shielding yet? I've read just front and side and all around, and I reeealllly wanna know which it is
I am again very interested in scarabs against Imperial Knights and got some questions:
-the shield of the knight, does it work in the close combat phase too? -knights have ini 4 right?
scarabs are interesting against all super heavies now...
Knights are initiative 4
The Imperial Knight invulnerable save applies only to shooting, except the Forge World Cerastus Knight Lancer, who has a 5+ save that applies to both shooting and assault.
Unix wrote: Quick question. The Ghost Ark transport capacity is 10, and it specifically states that it can only carry warriors and necron characters with the infantry type. However since the min unit size for warriors is 10, there's no way to initially transport an attached character correct?
Hollismason wrote: Now think of combining Triarch Stalkers with H. Destroyers who can keep up with them and Jump Shoot Jump out from behind with BS5 Preferred enemy.
They're pretty much the only things which can use it though. 6" range is tiny, and there's not a lot of long ranged infantry based weapons. I guess BS5 warriors are okay but really, what else is there?
Sir, the Blitz rule specifies the same Moving Rules for Wraiths, and the Solitaire actually fights at Initiative thanks to the Flip Belt that negates Initiative Penalties for charging through difficult terrain.
The Wraiths do not fight at Initiative, PERIOD
Game
Set
Match
Sorry, but that's hardly conclusive as GW has been known to give models multiple items that do the same thing (for example, some Space Marine characters have two Invulnerable saves when they can only use one). Basically Flip Belts are to Harlequins what Power Armour is to Marines. Again, if you want to continue the discussion, YMDC is the place.
Hollismason wrote: Now think of combining Triarch Stalkers with H. Destroyers who can keep up with them and Jump Shoot Jump out from behind with BS5 Preferred enemy.
They're pretty much the only things which can use it though. 6" range is tiny, and there's not a lot of long ranged infantry based weapons. I guess BS5 warriors are okay but really, what else is there?
Judicator Battatlion=
1 unit of Triach Stalkers
2 units of Triarch Praetorians
Special Rules: Move Through Cover
At start of shooting phase, pick an enemy within LOS of Triarch Stalker. Re-roll failed to hit, to wound, and armour penetration rolls against the target until end of turn.
2 attacks instead of 1 for the praetorians, can select NS as dedicated, 12" Rod instead of 6", and 12 PPM reduction. That sure is a boost worth noting!
Hollismason wrote: Now think of combining Triarch Stalkers with H. Destroyers who can keep up with them and Jump Shoot Jump out from behind with BS5 Preferred enemy.
They're pretty much the only things which can use it though. 6" range is tiny, and there's not a lot of long ranged infantry based weapons. I guess BS5 warriors are okay but really, what else is there?
Judicator Battatlion=
1 unit of Triach Stalkers
2 units of Triarch Praetorians
Special Rules: Move Through Cover
At start of shooting phase, pick an enemy within LOS of Triarch Stalker. Re-roll failed to hit, to wound, and armour penetration rolls against the target until end of turn.
Yeah, that's very good but not really my point. I'm not questioning if stalkers are good (they're decent at least), I'm questioning the use of the BS5 perk. That formation is crazy though, Praetorians are good already. That and the wraith formation look to be the strongest in the book.
astro_nomicon wrote: So I'm confused, any one have confirmation on Quantum Shielding yet? I've read just front and side and all around, and I reeealllly wanna know which it is
The guy on The Hive forum stated he had made a mistake. It's just Front and Sides
Ghaz wrote: GW has been known to give models multiple items that do the same thing (for example, some Space Marine characters have two Invulnerable saves when they can only use one).
Draigo has 3 invulnerable saves and a psychic power that lets him flee combat. I'm convinced he's a coward as a result.
Stalker looks quite nice, though the complete lack of AP in combat remains absurd for a walker with giant claws bigger than many Monstrous Creatures.
I think its worth considering that the stalkers can now be taken in units of 1-3. The 6" range becomes a huge footprint when you consider you could have three of those things. Even two is huge. As vehicles they have a 4" coherency if you have a vehicle squadron so you could have stalker<4">stalker<4">stalker and 6"extending out from there with 3 stalkers. 375pts. That would cover a width of about 36", and a front and back area of about 16 inches for an oval shape. In other words you could give most of your army if you have a phalanx style army +1 BS.
This puts a lot of character, and c'tan models, up to BS6+ and gives things like destroyers BS5 With PE.
I think for someone who played a phalanx style army, thats pretty good.
The Triarch formation bonus is really nice, but I don't know if I want 2x5 Praetorians. Their sticks are S:User now, but they got rid of Unwieldy so they can at least go before PFists. I'd get use out of them as a way of dealing with my main opponent's Steel Rain, that's for sure.
For now though I think I'll try the teleporting Lychguard squad mentioned earlier in the thread.
At this point, the leaks I'd like to see in person are the Heavy support, to see for myself if Heavy Destroyers can be taken as a unit as well as an upgrade and if these Superheavies really are just normal FOC non lord of war units, as well as one or two of the formations to be entirely sure they can be taken without needing to be part of a Decurion. Particularly Royal Court.
Hollismason wrote: Now think of combining Triarch Stalkers with H. Destroyers who can keep up with them and Jump Shoot Jump out from behind with BS5 Preferred enemy.
They're pretty much the only things which can use it though. 6" range is tiny, and there's not a lot of long ranged infantry based weapons. I guess BS5 warriors are okay but really, what else is there?
Not when you consider that vehicle squadrons have a 4 inch Coherency. That's about a 20 to 24 inch line across, ( Triarchs are about 4 to 5 inches across, 4 more for coherency) then extend that another 6, if any non vehicle is in range +1 to ballistic.
That's pretty good.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
blaktoof wrote: I think its worth considering that the stalkers can now be taken in units of 1-3. The 6" range becomes a huge footprint when you consider you could have three of those things. Even two is huge. As vehicles they have a 4" coherency if you have a vehicle squadron so you could have stalker<4">stalker<4">stalker and 6"extending out from there with 3 stalkers. 375pts. That would cover a width of about 36", and a front and back area of about 16 inches for an oval shape. In other words you could give most of your army if you have a phalanx style army +1 BS.
This puts a lot of character, and c'tan models, up to BS6+ and gives things like destroyers BS5 With PE.
I think for someone who played a phalanx style army, thats pretty good.
This guy wrote it better and explained it better than I did.
I guess we will have to wait until full spoiling, but as written the Judicar Batallion would extend its buff to anything hitting or wounding the marked target.
Spoiler:
Judicator Battatlion=
1 unit of Triach Stalkers
2 units of Triarch Praetorians
Special Rules: Move Through Cover
At start of shooting phase, pick an enemy within LOS of Triarch Stalker. Re-roll failed to hit, to wound, and armour penetration rolls against the target until end of turn.
I ordered the special edition with the Data Cards. Will it be mandatory for me to slap down the Deathmark card and yell "You have activated my trap card!" Every time I use Etherial Interception?
I ordered the special edition with the Data Cards. Will it be mandatory for me to slap down the Deathmark card and yell "You have activated my trap card!" Every time I use Etherial Interception?
I ordered the special edition with the Data Cards. Will it be mandatory for me to slap down the Deathmark card and yell "You have activated my trap card!" Every time I use Etherial Interception?
Hollismason wrote: I still can get over that for a little under 250 points you can have Tomblades with 10 ST6 blasts, Ignore Cover, 3+ Cover, 3+ Armour, 5++ RP.
Hollismason wrote: I still can get over that for a little under 250 points you can have Tomblades with 10 ST6 blasts, Ignore Cover, 3+ Cover, 3+ Armour, 5++ RP.
i don't wish to go further, i will only say that everything showed is again proof that GW is unable to write 3 times a rule that does the same thing in the end in a clear manner*sight*.
Well still one last thing then i'm done with it since its not the most important.
if it is truly how it is supposed to work or not their will be a faq (in 3 to 6 months time...) or we will have to wait 8th Ed next year just like for the Grav weapons and vehicles cover/invul saves...
Neverless, someone speaked about Stalkers been 1-3 for each HS, i don't think so, nothing on the picture seems to go that way.
The picture is not from the "bestiary" since there is points cost, so it is the picture from the list entry( since the new 7Th dexes lists entries are like this now), could be wrong though.
Hollismason wrote: I still can get over that for a little under 250 points you can have Tomblades with 10 ST6 blasts, Ignore Cover, 3+ Cover, 3+ Armour, 5++ RP.
Great I have to buy more Tomb Blades.
Bear in mind that the Ignores Cover is naturally no threat to Marines.
AP 5 on the blasts, so mostly Guard, Gaunts and Cultists you can obliterate there.
As for Fire Warriors: Gauss Blasters are ideal. Reroll to hit and wound on a 2+ makes for very easy obliteration.
Don't forget: Jetbikes are relentless and a handful of straggling survivors of a shooty horde will generally be even worse at combat than Necrons. Add insult to injury by consolidating to steal their cover save!
Neverless, someone speaked about Stalkers been 1-3 for each HS, i don't think so, nothing on the picture seems to go that way.
The picture is not from the "bestiary" since there is points cost, so it is the picture from the list entry( since the new 7Th dexes lists entries are like this now), could be wrong though.
First thing under Options: May include 2 additional.....
Hollismason wrote: I still can get over that for a little under 250 points you can have Tomblades with 10 ST6 blasts, Ignore Cover, 3+ Cover, 3+ Armour, 5++ RP.
Great I have to buy more Tomb Blades.
Can't have 3+ Jink and Ignore cover.
Tomb Blades are pretty damn good though.
Why not? Is it not a option to take all of them?
Nebuloscopes and Shadowlooms are a "Any model can take one of the following" choice. So I suppose you could take one on some models and the other on different models, but you can't have both on the same model.
You'll obliterate a lot more than you think with ST6 blasts just from mass number of hits on the unit. Pair them up with a Destroyer Lord for preferred enemy then when you need to break off and grab a objective.
Gauss Blasters though are probably a better bet, ST5 Gauss that ignores cover and you can put out 20 shots that's twin linked. That'll put the hurt on a lot of things.
I'm sure someone could do the statistical odds on a Gliding Flyrant and what it would do to a Wave Serpent.
Thought:If you combine the Orb of Eternity's +1 to reanimation with the Cryptek ability to +1 to reanimation, then get hit by Instant Death... Do you end up still rolling 4+?
Neverless, someone speaked about Stalkers been 1-3 for each HS, i don't think so, nothing on the picture seems to go that way.
The picture is not from the "bestiary" since there is points cost, so it is the picture from the list entry( since the new 7Th dexes lists entries are like this now), could be wrong though.
First thing under Options: May include 2 additional.....
changemod wrote: Thought:If you combine the Orb of Eternity's +1 to reanimation with the Cryptek ability to +1 to reanimation, then get hit by Instant Death... Do you end up still rolling 4+?
I'd say yes, there's no order given in when the -1 and +1's are applied.
Yeah, what I'm referring to is does +1 +1 -1 all apply? Though you can't have 3+ reanimation, does the +2 kick in when the instant death penalty is applied and nullify it?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hollismason wrote: Well Ghost Arks are Fast Attack, so you can still do the party boat.
Buy a Fast Attack Ghost Ark, dump a bunch of Necron Lords in there with War Scythes and go to town, less effective now though.
Absurdly so. You'd get nowhere near your points return back on that.
Hollismason wrote: You'll obliterate a lot more than you think with ST6 blasts just from mass number of hits on the unit. Pair them up with a Destroyer Lord for preferred enemy then when you need to break off and grab a objective.
Gauss Blasters though are probably a better bet, ST5 Gauss that ignores cover and you can put out 20 shots that's twin linked. That'll put the hurt on a lot of things.
I'm sure someone could do the statistical odds on a Gliding Flyrant and what it would do to a Wave Serpent.
I'm okay with
Tomb Blades
220 Points
10 Gauss Blasters
~18 hits on a wave serpent which gives you the 3 HPs. So IF you can get all 10 into RF range alive you should down one. Pretty awesome actually.
Against a GLIDING HT it will get you 18 hits and 12 wounds so 4 should go through again for a kill. Against a SWOOPING HT it is much worse. ~6 hits for 2 wounds of which ~1.4 go through.
I edited it. They won't be worth relying on for anti flier to be honest. Too many points fishing for 6's and same goes for FMC where despite only needing 5+ to wound most times, many have a built in save making it ineffective.
It's a dedicated transport that can safely transport units 36" with a stalkers main weapon on an av11 all around flier for only 130 lol. I am glad it went up at least but they are still a steal when you look at other fliers to be honest.
WrentheFaceless wrote: So of the necron players in here, who's going to put a flavor of a c'tan in to roll on the fun table?
I'm the "own more than I need and switch up my list constantly" type, so I'll probably shuffle one in sooner or later.
Probably Nightbringer with a God Shackle. T8, a reliable secondary gun that heals him and the fact that honestly Deceiver's utility tricks don't seem great and Tran doesn't have "C'tan Shard" in his name so probably can't be buffed even though he's no longer anything but a generic C'tan Shard without a name on the profile.
Also Writhing Worldscape honestly doesn't do a damn thing other than make anyone charging the C'tan strike at I1... And who exactly decided to charge a C'tan?
Terrain within 18" is dangerous terrain, even for FMCs and Flyers that don't usually take DT tests.
An Obelisk can come into play as "powered down", in which case it has 3++, and cannot move or shoot. During the movement phase it can power up, and once powered up it cannot power down again.
An Obelisk entering from deep strike is always powered up.
Its 'probably' better than anni barges for the points. You lose the twin link, but get one more shot. And again, the thing is a 6 hull point AV 14 beast that is essentially immune to the pen table.
i'm interested in getting my hands on the codex now, can't wait to start a new build with the points reduction to some of the models and getting my hands on the new Necron Overlord.
Whats the range on the Triarch Stalker's guns again?
EDIT: Nevermind. You can give it gauss cannons.
I could see some interesting synergy between Destroyers and some stalkers.
Basically you turn your destroyers death machines. +2 to hit with reroll thanks to prefered enemy. Couple that with the formation and you're essentially 100% to hit and reroll all wounds.
4 sets of 5 St7 tesla shots that can all fire at different targets for 300pts? How much are 3 Annibarges now? 420....And that's 12 shots vs. 20 with higher AV and 3 less HP but not open topped.
Hulksmash wrote: 4 sets of 5 St7 tesla shots that can all fire at different targets for 300pts? How much are 3 Annibarges now? 420....And that's 12 shots vs. 20 with higher AV and 3 less HP but not open topped.
Oh, and thunderblitz.
Yea thats what I saw too. I don't understand how people think that is bad, point for point it is WAY better output then Abarges or NS.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: They're hull mounted so unless your opponent spreads out a horde to be quite wide each sphere will be hitting a different target
If they are each different spheres, then that thing fires off a potential 20 shots (10 at a single target most likely) and each has the potential to have more hits on 6's.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: They're hull mounted so unless your opponent spreads out a horde to be quite wide each sphere will be hitting a different target
If you look at the model and the way the guns are placed you can probably get 3 on a single target but definitely 2 on 2 targets.
Hull mounted weapons only have a 45 degree arc, don't they (22.5 left and 22.5 right)? And since you can only 'swivel' 12.5 degrees down (and up) and considering the thing is mounted on a flying stand... getting 2 to hit 1 target would be a stretch.
Hrmmmm, you are all making very good points, if only it wasn't such a hideous model. Hull mounted doesn't mean " hull mounted" I don't think doesn't the guns move? like the little Tesla Spheres themselves move?
Even if you could only consistantly get two targets a turn with it, for 300 points its well worth it IMO. Two AB's are 240 for the same HP's on less armor that also is open topped and gets weaker after the forst pen each, and this thing has more shots with only two spheres lol. Nasty.
Ok, so after reading all the posts in this thread (for quite some time) and all he other pages out there, seems like we are only missing a few things, please share if you have them;
list entry for
Doom Scythe
Spyder
Obelisk
Tesseract Vault.
*yes, we have the stats for some, but I want to see the actual pages if we have them.
We are also missing specifically is on the upgrade lists for characters and their cost page (yes, we have the description pages....all codex have those....but I want the list page that says what is avail in each category at what cost).
Finally, while I love that we are getting a lot of good builds (the best thing about ANY book really), I am a bit disappointed in MSS (fear? really? why not just make it like paraxoysm?) and the CTAN.
I love the ctan. The ctan fluff was what got me into the Necrons in the first place.
They were garbage last codex, and while a neat bag of tricks this one, they have unreliable powers, and will have issues making it into CC.
I don't know about your area, but in mine, there is a LOT of S7 shooting (lootas, tau, wave serpents, and don't even get me started on grav centurions) and with only a 50% save, a 4 wound ctan is toast.
In fact, anyone have any good suggestions for dealing with centurions? I am thinking either the solar pulse thing to protect some lychguard with scythes, or a ton of heavy destroyers.
We are also missing specifically is on the upgrade lists for characters and their cost page (yes, we have the description pages....all codex have those....but I want the list page that says what is avail in each category at what cost).
7th Ed codexes no longer have a separate unit pages and army lists. The point costs and slot are displayed at the top of the pages (which unfortunately weren't included in many of the images we have)
DarknessEternal wrote: Doesn't matter how many times a C'tan can shoot, it's still most likely dead on Turn 1.
4 wounds at 7 Toughness with only a 4++ save just means you get to roll a lot of dice against wounds that still kill you. Every army runs spam guns.
Which is why the Conclave is even more appealing now. T8 makes it immune to Bolter equivalent fire, Crypteks are now 2W each to make it harder to get rid of that FNP, you can give them a Chronometron so they have their own Invuln Save, etc.
Conclave is a squad of T8, with 8 Wounds, 5+ FNP on the Shard/4+ Reanimation on the Crypteks, all with Invuln saves, with a possibly good shooting attack (and another really great shooting attack on the Nightbringer if you go with him). That's a scary-butt squad imo. What MC can rival that?
Well said.
You also get a couple of Staff of Lights to go with the Nightbringers shooting. Picture that popping out of a Mono. You're absolutely going to lay waist to MEq.
Granted, it's a minimum of 370 points. Fun, though.
We are also missing specifically is on the upgrade lists for characters and their cost page (yes, we have the description pages....all codex have those....but I want the list page that says what is avail in each category at what cost).
7th Ed codexes no longer have a separate unit pages and army lists. The point costs and slot are displayed at the top of the pages (which unfortunately weren't included in many of the images we have)
I am talking about the costs for the UPGRADES.
As in an overlord can take items from the ranged weapons, etc. We have the decription pages, but NOT the important one - the one that lists exactly what can be taken, and the cost.
(and I like many others, am fairly certain dispersion shields are not on the Technoarcana lists).
Also, any suggestions for dealing with grav centurions?
(other than convincing the people who use them they are silly OP......I don't even play with mine in my marine lists).
I think they're worth trying, but Wraiths didn't get where they are because they do the most damage, they're awesome because they deal serious damage and are freaking insanely durable.
Funny, because TPs have always been about as durable, and now are significantly more durable, for their points.
Aldaris wrote: Yeah, Flayed ones don't have fearless - but 130 points for a 10 model infiltrating unit that dishes out 50 S4 shred attacks on the charge is still pretty good.
Indeed, and the fact the RP happens before they have to check for breaking in CC, plus their massively increased damage output, means they won't be breaking often. (Not too mention if they are within 12" of a CCB they are basically fearless anyway).
I never liked the flayed one models personally. Never thought the execution of the flesh looked right, it also make no sense. These ancient killers appear from the ground wearing pink bloody flaps of flesh? lol.
The worst part about this codex is that there's so many models that I want to use. I have a crap ton of Destroyers that desperately want to be put on the table now. I have a Stalker that was constantly beaten up last edition.
On top of that, I have a box of Tomb Blades and 3 boxes of Wraiths. Originally, the Wraiths were going to be converted into Acanthrites, but oh goodness now they're so good. But I also kind of want to take a box back and exchange it for some Praetorian/Lychguard box because they're both amazing now too.
And I want the Deceiver model because I currently only have the Nightbringer and might want to run both of them.
As someone previously mentioned, still interested in seeing the point costs for Spyders and their upgrades.
Overall, though, I'm pretty pleased right now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Man, that new Triarch Formation is just awesome sauce. I'm thinking along the lines of others of mixing that with some HDs, and maybe throwing in a Mono for the HDs to Jump behind. Fun times.
I'm still pretty new to the game so I can't complain about losing things that I never got to really play too much, but it does seem like overall, things are more playable.
I love the Spyder model and hope that it can keep up better with the Wraiths and Scarabs in the formation for that bonus
Spyders are about the same.
Doom scythe is 160
Barge and Doomsday ark are as described previously
Tesseract vault is 550 (not worth it inmho)
Obelisk 300 (not bad, not great, but not bad)
Ok, I think we are only missing the war gear costs page now...
davethepak wrote: Ok, so after reading all the posts in this thread (for quite some time) and all he other pages out there, seems like we are only missing a few things, please share if you have them;
list entry for
Doom Scythe
Spyder
Obelisk
Tesseract Vault.
*yes, we have the stats for some, but I want to see the actual pages if we have them.
We are also missing specifically is on the upgrade lists for characters and their cost page (yes, we have the description pages....all codex have those....but I want the list page that says what is avail in each category at what cost).
Finally, while I love that we are getting a lot of good builds (the best thing about ANY book really), I am a bit disappointed in MSS (fear? really? why not just make it like paraxoysm?) and the CTAN.
I love the ctan. The ctan fluff was what got me into the Necrons in the first place.
They were garbage last codex, and while a neat bag of tricks this one, they have unreliable powers, and will have issues making it into CC.
I don't know about your area, but in mine, there is a LOT of S7 shooting (lootas, tau, wave serpents, and don't even get me started on grav centurions) and with only a 50% save, a 4 wound ctan is toast.
In fact, anyone have any good suggestions for dealing with centurions? I am thinking either the solar pulse thing to protect some lychguard with scythes, or a ton of heavy destroyers.
While the Vault's powers are interesting, being Random just sucks. The Obelisk isn't amazing, but it's very reasonably priced, gives a bit of a deterrent against Flyers/FMCs, and has a nice Formation with the Monoliths (which I still love).
Basically, the Vault pays 250 points to lose FMC defense and gain 3 HP and a random shooting attack. I don't know how worthwhile that is.
I wish I could magnetize my kit for both, it's still unbuilt because of my indecisiveness over which way to go over it.
I don't know whether this has been mentioned or not, but my FLGS got the Necron book in today and all the regulars got to have a look.
I've been through the previous few pages so I'll try not to repeat anything, if anyone has any specific questions I'll answer as best I can.
Anyway, 1st thing - if you take the new Necron decurion thing, every single model in it gets +1 to reanimation protocols.
2nd thing - C'tan definitely can use 2 powers in a phase, the wording on using the powers states it is "exactly like shooting a weapon", and since MC can shoot two weapons...
This means the Nightbringer can shoot its powers twice, AND use its 3d6 life leech thing, since the life leech rules explicitly state they can be used in addition to C'tan powers.
Requizen wrote: While the Vault's powers are interesting, being Random just sucks. The Obelisk isn't amazing, but it's very reasonably priced, gives a bit of a deterrent against Flyers/FMCs, and has a nice Formation with the Monoliths (which I still love).
Basically, the Vault pays 250 points to lose FMC defense and gain 3 HP and a random shooting attack. I don't know how worthwhile that is.
I wish I could magnetize my kit for both, it's still unbuilt because of my indecisiveness over which way to go over it.
Dr. Delorean wrote: I don't know whether this has been mentioned or not, but my FLGS got the Necron book in today and all the regulars got to have a look.
I've been through the previous few pages so I'll try not to repeat anything, if anyone has any specific questions I'll answer as best I can.
Anyway, 1st thing - if you take the new Necron decurion thing, every single model in it gets +1 to reanimation protocols.
2nd thing - C'tan definitely can use 2 powers in a phase, the wording on using the powers states it is "exactly like shooting a weapon", and since MC can shoot two weapons...
This means the Nightbringer can shoot its powers twice, AND use its 3d6 life leech thing, since the life leech rules explicitly state they can be used in addition to C'tan powers.
but you cannot use the same shooting weapon twice BUT the weapon is special in it's own rigt : this needs a FAQ
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dr. Delorean wrote: I don't know whether this has been mentioned or not, but my FLGS got the Necron book in today and all the regulars got to have a look.
I've been through the previous few pages so I'll try not to repeat anything, if anyone has any specific questions I'll answer as best I can.
Anyway, 1st thing - if you take the new Necron decurion thing, every single model in it gets +1 to reanimation protocols.
2nd thing - C'tan definitely can use 2 powers in a phase, the wording on using the powers states it is "exactly like shooting a weapon", and since MC can shoot two weapons...
This means the Nightbringer can shoot its powers twice, AND use its 3d6 life leech thing, since the life leech rules explicitly state they can be used in addition to C'tan powers.
Okay: what happened to eternity gate: still usable on turn it arrives via deepstrike (as in current FAQ)? thx!
Are you sure all units in the entire decurion (meaning all subformations) get +1 to RP? Cryptecs would be pretty optional then (helping with instant death??
what happened to eternity gate: still usable on turn it arrives via deepstrike (as in current FAQ)? thx!
The gate no longer has the ability to eat models via a strength check.
Other than that, it seemed identical to how it is currently. You can still bring a unit currently in reserve through the gate without having to roll, but it happens at the start of the movement phase, so no drop and gate tactics.
Another thing - both the Night Scythe and the Doom Scythe have Living Metal, which allows them to automatically ignore Shaken results (apart from the HP loss). If they're taken in a Decurion, then they ignore both Shaken and Stunned.
EDIT: With the Decurion thing, I'm positive. There's a little box in the bottom right hand corner of the Decurion section (a 2-page spread) which lists the benefits, one is the +1 to reanimation protocols across the whole force, the other is the improvement to Living Metal above.
Spyder's scarab hive looks like it was slightly nerfed, the new scarab bases need to be placed within 6" of the spyder now, not just anywhere in coherency.
That said, I'm happy you can still run the scarab farm, and the spyders don't cost more than they used to. I have 9 of the new spyders, and was pretty worried when the rumours kept implying they don't come in units anymore.
what happened to eternity gate: still usable on turn it arrives via deepstrike (as in current FAQ)? thx!
The gate no longer has the ability to eat models via a strength check.
Other than that, it seemed identical to how it is currently. You can still bring a unit currently in reserve through the gate without having to roll, but it happens at the start of the movement phase, so no drop and gate tactics.
Another thing - both the Night Scythe and the Doom Scythe have Living Metal, which allows them to automatically ignore Shaken results (apart from the HP loss). If they're taken in a Decurion, then they ignore both Shaken and Stunned.
EDIT: With the Decurion thing, I'm positive. There's a little box in the bottom right hand corner of the Decurion section (a 2-page spread) which lists the benefits, one is the +1 to reanimation protocols across the whole force, the other is the improvement to Living Metal above.
what happened to eternity gate: still usable on turn it arrives via deepstrike (as in current FAQ)? thx!
The gate no longer has the ability to eat models via a strength check.
Other than that, it seemed identical to how it is currently. You can still bring a unit currently in reserve through the gate without having to roll, but it happens at the start of the movement phase, so no drop and gate tactics.
Another thing - both the Night Scythe and the Doom Scythe have Living Metal, which allows them to automatically ignore Shaken results (apart from the HP loss). If they're taken in a Decurion, then they ignore both Shaken and Stunned.
EDIT: With the Decurion thing, I'm positive. There's a little box in the bottom right hand corner of the Decurion section (a 2-page spread) which lists the benefits, one is the +1 to reanimation protocols across the whole force, the other is the improvement to Living Metal above.
Oh damn but thank you anyway!
I hate that decurion but that bonuses are hilarious! Good move GW: encourage players to give away liberty and take what others told you in order to gain massive buffs.
With the Destroyer Cult, you must take at least 1 Destroyer Lord and 3 units of Destroyers. These units must be at least 3 models each (although you can upgrade one of the three to a Heavy Destroyer if you want). The benefits have already been leaked as far as I know.
The bonus Crypteks give to Reanimation is mostly (I think) for when you use the normal CAD for your army, as opposed to the Decurion.
That being said, you can definitely combine the Decurion with a CAD if you wish, just that only Decurion models get Decurion benefits.
And now I've said Decurion so much the word has lost all meaning.
Dr. Delorean wrote: With the Destroyer Cult, you must take at least 1 Destroyer Lord and 3 units of Destroyers. These units must be at least 3 models each (although you can upgrade one of the three to a Heavy Destroyer if you want). The benefits have already been leaked as far as I know.
The bonus Crypteks give to Reanimation is mostly (I think) for when you use the normal CAD for your army, as opposed to the Decurion.
That being said, you can definitely combine the Decurion with a CAD if you wish, just that only Decurion models get Decurion benefits.
And now I've said Decurion so much the word has lost all meaning.
Yeah, but how do you get enough Cryptecs without using unbound or the royal court formation wich needs a decurion or is a formation and therefore pretty tournament unlegal?
If the +1 to RP across the board (for models in the Decurion) is true, that's awesome.
So get yourself some tomb blades -__- sorry it isn't meant hostile: I just hate that preshaped modular system and I know players wil l hop to it once the bonus is too good. And that makes me sad as liberty is taken away.
And there is no reasonable fluff to justify that huge of a buff - now the flyer living metal is more courageous, because THE DECURION walks.... or what? Damn I am getting angry.
Heh, thanks for the updates, Dr. D, The Eternity gate working at the beginning is a bit disappointing. Moving and dropping was one of my favorite features in the last version.
So the Decurion is definitly +1 to RP instead of Rerolls to 1's?
If the +1 to RP across the board (for models in the Decurion) is true, that's awesome.
So get yourself some tomb blades -__- sorry it isn't meant hostile: I just hate that preshaped modular system and I know players wil l hop to it once the bonus is too good. And that makes me sad as liberty is taken away.
How is liberty taken away?
You are still free to choose how ever the way you want to build your lists. Some ways are going to be better then others, no matter what the underlying rules are.
ShadarLogoth wrote: Heh, thanks for the updates, Dr. D, The Eternity gate working at the beginning is a bit disappointing. Moving and dropping was one of my favorite features in the last version.
So the Decurion is definitly +1 to RP instead of Rerolls to 1's?
If the +1 to RP across the board (for models in the Decurion) is true, that's awesome.
So get yourself some tomb blades -__- sorry it isn't meant hostile: I just hate that preshaped modular system and I know players wil l hop to it once the bonus is too good. And that makes me sad as liberty is taken away.
How is liberty taken away?
You are still free to choose how ever the way you want to build your lists. Some ways are going to be better then others, no matter what the underlying rules are.
Can you imagine how much better the +1 to RP is and the buff to LM? There is nearly no way to not take the decurion; and the the liberty then goes away by choosing preshaped formations if your army to perform well.
But yeah good point the core of the Decurion has the reroll does that apply cumulatively??
Yeah, but how do you get enough Cryptecs without using unbound or the royal court formation wich needs a decurion or is a formation and therefore pretty tournament unlegal?
Don't really have an answer for you there, to be honest it looks like taking a Decurion is going to be the best all-round option for Necron armies.
Oh! You can do drop-and-gate tactics if you take the "Living Tomb" formation in the Decurion.
You need to take 1 obelisk, and 0-2 monoliths. The obelisk automatically deep strikes on turn 2. Any monoliths from this formation that deep strike within 12" of the obelisk do not scatter. Immediately after a monolith from this formation arrives, you can choose one friendly infantry or jump infantry unit (they have to be entirely infantry or entirely jump infantry) that is in reserve, and they immediately deploy from the monolith's eternity gate.
A hefty price tag (an obelisk and 2 monos runs you 700pts) but you can do it.
EDIT: AFAIK the re-roll of 1s for Reanimation comes from the Overlord at the head of the Decurion, and affects him and all units within 12" of him, so it's not the entire force (unless you bunch up)
Another thing, if you want to get decent +1 Reanimation coverage and don't want to use the Decurion, Illuminor Szeras gives all units within 6" of him +1 to their Reanimation rolls. The rule is strangely worded though, as originally I thought it was only models within 6" of Szeras, which in some cases would actually be worse than the normal Cryptek buff, but it's definitely units within 6".
Yeah, but how do you get enough Cryptecs without using unbound or the royal court formation wich needs a decurion or is a formation and therefore pretty tournament unlegal?
Don't really have an answer for you there, to be honest it looks like taking a Decurion is going to be the best all-round option for Necron armies.
Oh! You can do drop-and-gate tactics if you take the "Living Tomb" formation in the Decurion.
You need to take 1 obelisk, and 0-2 monoliths. The obelisk automatically deep strikes on turn 2. Any monoliths from this formation that deep strike within 12" of the obelisk do not scatter. Immediately after a monolith from this formation arrives, you can choose one friendly infantry or jump infantry unit (they have to be entirely infantry or entirely jump infantry) that is in reserve, and they immediately deploy from the monolith's eternity gate.
A hefty price tag (an obelisk and 2 monos runs you 700pts) but you can do it.
This again means take the decurion or go home .... but thanks for the info dude
Yeah, but how do you get enough Cryptecs without using unbound or the royal court formation wich needs a decurion or is a formation and therefore pretty tournament unlegal?
Don't really have an answer for you there, to be honest it looks like taking a Decurion is going to be the best all-round option for Necron armies.
Oh! You can do drop-and-gate tactics if you take the "Living Tomb" formation in the Decurion.
You need to take 1 obelisk, and 0-2 monoliths. The obelisk automatically deep strikes on turn 2. Any monoliths from this formation that deep strike within 12" of the obelisk do not scatter. Immediately after a monolith from this formation arrives, you can choose one friendly infantry or jump infantry unit (they have to be entirely infantry or entirely jump infantry) that is in reserve, and they immediately deploy from the monolith's eternity gate.
A hefty price tag (an obelisk and 2 monos runs you 700pts) but you can do it.
So does the reroll ones on RP within the core of the Decurion stack with the overall +1 to RP
The re-rolls of 1 stack with the +1 as far as I could tell, only thing is the unit needs to be within 12" of the Overlord.
Deathmarks have also changed a bit. Firstly, when they deploy from reserves they wound anything on a 2+, they don't select a specific unit. This is a minor change, but it increases their flexibility.
Secondly, they can elect to deep strike at the same time as an opponent's unit comes in from reserve, as usual. However, now they can make a full shooting attack at the end of the opponent's movement phase. If they do this, they cannot fire in their proceeding shooting phase. Though I didn't see anything that said they couldn't charge, not sure why you would, but technically you could if you wanted.
Another thing, if you want to get decent +1 Reanimation coverage and don't want to use the Decurion, Illuminor Szeras gives all units within 6" of him +1 to their Reanimation rolls. The rule is strangely worded though, as originally I thought it was only models within 6" of Szeras, which in some cases would actually be worse than the normal Cryptek buff, but it's definitely units within 6".
Ah, that's good news. Yeah, earlier leaks were using "model" instead of "unit."
Dr. Delorean wrote: The re-rolls of 1 stack with the +1 as far as I could tell, only thing is the unit needs to be within 12" of the Overlord.
Deathmarks have also changed a bit. Firstly, when they deploy from reserves they wound anything on a 2+, they don't select a specific unit. This is a minor change, but it increases their flexibility.
Secondly, they can elect to deep strike at the same time as an opponent's unit comes in from reserve, as usual. However, now they can make a full shooting attack at the end of the opponent's movement phase. If they do this, they cannot fire in their proceeding shooting phase. Though I didn't see anything that said they couldn't charge, not sure why you would, but technically you could if you wanted.
I do not know, if you know but: the destroyer cult says: if taken as primary detachement gain bonus x and x... so if I take the destroyer cult as primary detachement, does that count as being a decurion detachement
This again means take the decurion or go home .... but thanks for the info dude
Keep in mind if you want to run ABs without taking a DA, or Wraiths without taking Spyders and Scarabs, you will still need to go traditional CAD. Those two things alone will steer people away for Decurion, I think.
However, I certainly agree with you it's looking pretty stout, thus far.
I do not know, if you know but: the destroyer cult says: if taken as primary detachement gain bonus x and x... so if I take the destroyer cult as primary detachement, does that count as being a decurion detachement
I don't think so, though that'd be sweet. All of the formations that constitute the Decurion are still formations in their own right though, so there's nothing stopping you from taking a Destroyer Cult alongside a normal CAD if you want, they just won't get the Decurion advantages.
ShadarLogoth wrote: Heh, thanks for the updates, Dr. D, The Eternity gate working at the beginning is a bit disappointing. Moving and dropping was one of my favorite features in the last version.
So the Decurion is definitly +1 to RP instead of Rerolls to 1's?
If the +1 to RP across the board (for models in the Decurion) is true, that's awesome.
So get yourself some tomb blades -__- sorry it isn't meant hostile: I just hate that preshaped modular system and I know players wil l hop to it once the bonus is too good. And that makes me sad as liberty is taken away.
How is liberty taken away?
You are still free to choose how ever the way you want to build your lists. Some ways are going to be better then others, no matter what the underlying rules are.
Can you imagine how much better the +1 to RP is and the buff to LM? There is nearly no way to not take the decurion; and the the liberty then goes away by choosing preshaped formations if your army to perform well.
But yeah good point the core of the Decurion has the reroll does that apply cumulatively??
You can still build a normal list you know... Yeah the bonus for taking the detachment is good but it's not like you're overly shooting yourself in the foot by not taking it. There's no loss of Liberty at all, if anything you have more options..?
The only real disappointing thing I've seen is the lack of 2+ saves available in the book. Aside from the 35pt nightmare shroud and some specific Special Characters, 3+ is as good as it gets.
That being said, I can see why they were reluctant. A Decurion Overlord with a phase shifter has a 3+/4++/4+++, re-rolling 1s for the Reanimation roll, putting 2+ saves on top of that might've pushed it over into "how the hell do I kill this" territory.
Henker-Kind wrote: This again means take the decurion or go home .... but thanks for the info dude
To be fair the Decurion is very restrictive, loses super-scoring and comes with a lot of taxes, so it would have to give good buffs to be worth the trouble.
Moreover, the fact it gives +1 to RP rolls means all your Crypteks are worth 30pts less than they cost against anything that doesn't inflict ID, which may be kind of a big deal depending on which characters have access to which wargear options (at the very least you'd be wanting them for those Chronometron invul saves).
Almost every sub-formation in the Decurion detachment has some hefty minimal model requirements that badly limit mini-maxing capabilities, which isn't something you should take lightly.
Dr. Delorean wrote: The only real disappointing thing I've seen is the lack of 2+ saves available in the book. Aside from the 35pt nightmare shroud and some specific Special Characters, 3+ is as good as it gets.
That being said, I can see why they were reluctant. A Decurion Overlord with a phase shifter has a 3+/4++/4+++, re-rolling 1s for the Reanimation roll, putting 2+ saves on top of that might've pushed it over into "how the hell do I kill this" territory.
Yeah, I understand that as well. Factor in that you can add IWND for only 15 points as well...
It's too bad you can't take the Mephrit Dynasty formations/Artifacts in the Decurion.
Henker-Kind wrote: This again means take the decurion or go home .... but thanks for the info dude
To be fair the Decurion is very restrictive, loses super-scoring and comes with a lot of taxes, so it would have to give good buffs to be worth the trouble.
Moreover, the fact it gives +1 to RP rolls means all your Crypteks are worth 30pts less than they cost against anything that doesn't inflict ID, which may be kind of a big deal depending on which characters have access to which wargear options (at the very least you'd be wanting them for those Chronometron invul saves).
Almost every sub-formation in the Decurion detachment has some hefty minimal model requirements that badly limit mini-maxing capabilities, which isn't something you should take lightly.
Dr. Delorean wrote: The only real disappointing thing I've seen is the lack of 2+ saves available in the book. Aside from the 35pt nightmare shroud and some specific Special Characters, 3+ is as good as it gets.
That being said, I can see why they were reluctant. A Decurion Overlord with a phase shifter has a 3+/4++/4+++, re-rolling 1s for the Reanimation roll, putting 2+ saves on top of that might've pushed it over into "how the hell do I kill this" territory.
Yeah, fair point. As it is, Zandy taken as the Decurion Overlord is pretty damn salty.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I wonder if Warriors embarked on an Arc can benefit from the Stalker?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Dr. D, did you happen to see the price on basic Lords? Seems to be one of the last remaining gaps in our knowledge base.
Anyone see Maynark, the Dynasty from IA:12 on there? It'd be a nice bit of continuity if they remembered them... Especially since the Flayer Virus is basically their fault.
Dr. D, did you happen to see the price on basic Lords? Seems to be one of the last remaining gaps in our knowledge base.
50 points!
Hmmm....
So, for like somewhere north of 300 points, you could have the RC formation with an Olord, 3 Lords, 1 Cryptek + Chrono, all with Staves of Light (one of which is the SP relic), and as many Res Orbs as your heart desires.
Load them all up in a GA, or NS, or take the Veil. Run around and melt MEq face.
Or, like, add them all to 10 LG in an NS, cause why not? lol
Orikan + Sv2+ character (either one of the named ones that have it or a generic one that took the Nightmare Shroud relic) = Profit.
Can you imagine that at the head of a warrior blob?
"Yes, you can shoot at my 20 warriors, but unless you flank them you're going to have to bring down 3 T5 wounds with a 2+ rerollable and a 4+ RP that rerolls 1s, and if you shoot at them with AP2 there's still a 4++ and the Warriors could always Look Out Sir! against particularly dangerous shots."
Hell, bring along a resorb to rerall ALL failed RP rolls if your enemy tries to focus fire on the unit, and if you're not running Decurion you could cough up some extra points for a second Cryptek for IDRP protection (Decurion lists already have that one covered).
Mymearan wrote: So is this shaping up to be one of the best Codex updates since Space Marines?
It does!
But it equally introduces a very restricted alternate way of building your army with many bonusses that your CAD army will not get and vice versa a little.
Mymearan wrote: So is this shaping up to be one of the best Codex updates since Space Marines?
It does!
But it equally introduces a very restricted alternate way of building your army with many bonusses that your CAD army will not get and vice versa a little.
Mymearan wrote: So is this shaping up to be one of the best Codex updates since Space Marines?
It does!
But it equally introduces a very restricted alternate way of building your army with many bonusses that your CAD army will not get and vice versa a little.
Mymearan wrote: So is this shaping up to be one of the best Codex updates since Space Marines?
It does!
But it equally introduces a very restricted alternate way of building your army with many bonusses that your CAD army will not get and vice versa a little.
To tell the truth when I recently contemplated the issue of how to make "fluffy" lists competitive without gimping/restricting regular listbuilding that's basically the only real solution I came up with.
Mymearan wrote: So is this shaping up to be one of the best Codex updates since Space Marines?
It does!
But it equally introduces a very restricted alternate way of building your army with many bonusses that your CAD army will not get and vice versa a little.
Which you don't have to use...
isn't that, what the word alternate indicates?
Yeah but you keep going on like you're suddenly restricted or forced to use it.
Mymearan wrote: So is this shaping up to be one of the best Codex updates since Space Marines?
It does!
But it equally introduces a very restricted alternate way of building your army with many bonusses that your CAD army will not get and vice versa a little.
To tell the truth when I recently contemplated the issue of how to make "fluffy" lists competitive without gimping/restricting regular listbuilding that's basically the only real solution I came up with.
It's like they read my mind...
only problem is that we do not know how tournaments will handle it (because of competetive)
Mymearan wrote: So is this shaping up to be one of the best Codex updates since Space Marines?
It does!
But it equally introduces a very restricted alternate way of building your army with many bonusses that your CAD army will not get and vice versa a little.
Which you don't have to use...
isn't that, what the word alternate indicates?
Yeah but you keep going on like you're suddenly restricted or forced to use it.
no no restrictive is the decurion itself! The sentence is clear.
And yeah i simply hate the idea - let us stop spamming the thread with this discussion. I will still hate it and will keep going on in hope of others equally resenting this corporate way of controlling the player base and their purchases: man tomb blades as a must!! That is **** utter **** if you ask me: stupid looking boring sitting jet necrons, no and no!
Mymearan wrote: So is this shaping up to be one of the best Codex updates since Space Marines?
It does!
But it equally introduces a very restricted alternate way of building your army with many bonusses that your CAD army will not get and vice versa a little.
To tell the truth when I recently contemplated the issue of how to make "fluffy" lists competitive without gimping/restricting regular listbuilding that's basically the only real solution I came up with.
Scytheguard can shiv anything. They get 3+ 4+++, optionally 3+ 5++ 4+++ against shooting, and need S10, Force or some other version of ID to reduce that. If they're part of a Decurion and have a Cryptek, then it's straight up unlowerable 4+++.
Shieldguard only get S5 AP3, but can get 3++ 4+++. These are your Overlord's private guard, with him supplying the AP2. Don't want your Overlord in a challenge he can't win? Deny the challenge and choose the Cryptek Apothecary to go to the back of class. Overlord can still attack.
Hey, I already have a bunch of Tomb Blades so for me it's not much of an issue.
BTW, anyone know what their minimum unit size is now? Cause if it's still 1 I might just split my 5 Tomb Blades into 3 squads in a Decurion formation (because why the f**k not? ).
I'll need to proxy some Praetorians though, thankfully my Crypteks are mostly kitbashed warrior bodies with Staffs of the Covenant from the Lychguard/Praetorian kit and I can make more of them from the leftovers I'll have from the second kit I'm going to get with the Tomb Awakens box (which also comes with a handy Triarc Stalker to complete the formation, which is nice since I ordered it before knowing much of anything about the Decurion or the changes to the units therein), so I've pretty much got that covered.
Also have two unopened boxes of Destroyer units (so 6 Destroyers in total) and I could easily use the leftover guns from my Tomb Blades kits to turn their Gauss cannons into heavy Gauss cannons (that would look MUCH better than those flimsy finecrap ones). What's the minimal destroyer unit size now?
Diversifying my collection and lazing out on assembling my latest purchases really paid off with this update!
Even so, tomb blades are min unit size 1 and 18pts/model. You could easily convert a model that is more aesthetically pleasing if need be, and tomb blades make for fast and cheap objective campers in Maelstrom games.
Well, it appears that Night Scythes and Annihilation Barges are getting more expensive point-wise.
With three NS and three AB the increase is about 150 to 200 points.
On the other hand, points seem to decrease only for elite and FA units.
This would imply that my current Necron army will lose a lot.
I am still sad, that the C'tan are so dubious now, I tried them gainst my own units shortly before and it is still such a struggle to not die so easy - and then the question one time rolling on the table, twice? I know some of you have very strong opinions and arguments but to me, as a very long time player the rules aren't that clear on that and I really do not want to debate before every round and I do not want to get used to 2 levels of strenght but I also really want to field them again - usefull and strong - just looking at the nightbringer model ... what a beauty. And then he only has 4 attacks, fleshbane yeah but nothing on him is imposing as his model implies or his fluff, even though shattered.
I ask, what are the RAI here 240 points, how much damage should you do shooting wise? Some characteristics are even lowered from the C'Tan fragment - BS of the nightbringer etc. then 240 points. And he can only regenerate one wound at a time no matter how many he inflicts....
God shackle right now is RAW impossible (I think) and how to get 2 Cryptecs with a regular CAD into the formation or do they not count against te FOC? ...
Dr. Delorean wrote: Even so, tomb blades are min unit size 1 and 18pts/model.
I thought Tomb Blades were minimum 3 with maximum 10?
(could have sworn I saw their entry before the images were taken down)
Dr. Delorean wrote: I should clarify some things about Deathmarks...ah hell I'll just post the picture:
Spoiler:
ABOUT EFFING TIME
(granted, it's not as good as it could have been (they lost having the mark last for as long as the target is still alive, and their Interceptor ability is one turn only), but I'm just glad Ethereal Interception is still in AND works in a way that makes sense).
Now the question is, would it be better to field them as units of 5 or 10?
(I'm assuming 5s, so you can maximize your number of units that they can be used against)
Henker-Kind (wait, doesn't that mean Kid killer? lol, dangerous man here )
The formation's Crypteks definitely don't count against any FOC or CAD or Decurion or any other allotments, that's for sure. Also, the God Shackle should work on either of the Shards, at the very least. I know GW does silly things sometimes, but they literally just released that gear. It would be pretty asinine if it suddenly didn't work.
I am with you, though. My first instinct was to pair the C'Tan up with a Mono, although the fact that it can't move and deploy now some what diminishes that idea. You could still take the Veil on one of the Crypteks and DS it, though. As I mentioned a few pages back, 8 T8 wounds with RP and or FNP, a couple of Staves of Light (ew, and the other Cryptek could take the special Solar Pulse staff), added the to Nightbringers shooting could be one heck of a punch.
ShadarLogoth wrote: Henker-Kind (wait, doesn't that mean Kid killer? lol, dangerous man here )
The formation's Crypteks definitely don't count against any FOC or CAD or Decurion or any other allotments, that's for sure. Also, the God Shackle should work on either of the Shards, at the very least. I know GW does silly things sometimes, but they literally just released that gear. It would be pretty asinine if it suddenly didn't work.
I am with you, though. My first instinct was to pair the C'Tan up with a Mono, although the fact that it can't move and deploy now some what diminishes that idea. You could still take the Veil on one of the Crypteks and DS it, though. As I mentioned a few pages back, 8 T8 wounds with RP and or FNP, a couple of Staves of Light (ew, and the other Cryptek could take the special Solar Pulse staff), added the to Nightbringers shooting could be one heck of a punch.
Hey Dude first to read into my account name it means a hangman who is still and in a very absurd way a child - so it is mixing playfull innocence weakness and fear with tearing off heads...
That is why I love necrons in a sinister and dangerous nongoofy inhumane way...that aside: thanks for the reply - I just read those arguments that the god shackle refers to the c'tan fragment and there is no unit entry named like that (or C'tan-Shard in the codex) so RAW this would need fixing...
And does that mean, that formations never count towards FOC even if you otherwise had to unlock Cryptecs (in the old codex) - that must be why most tournaments do not allow formations or only one hm?
Anyway thanks. Wait I look this god shackle issue up mom
Yeah, it is like that.
The formation refers to 1 C'Tan Shard.
And RAW there are C'Tan Shard of the Nightbringer, C'Tan Shard of the Deceiver and the transcendent C'Tan.
So you couldn't use the T-C'Tan with it unless using RAI. The others more but still only RAI.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, Formations are outside of FoC. It's just another detachment.
Haven't played much 7th thank you for the info! And it is equally unimportant how to unlock the units in a formation? Is that bypassed too? For example under the old cron dex no cryptecs without overlord?
I'm almost worried about how durable the new Necrons are looking to be. The units that are T5, 3+ armor, 4+ RP are practically immune to shooting.
A full unit of Missile Broadsides only kills 2 Praetorians. Four full squads of rapid firing marines with plasma guns (72 bolter shots and 8 plasma shots) barely kills 4 Tomb Blades. A full Centurion Star can only put down 3-4 Lychguard with shields!
Death Company get butchered by an equal amount of Flayed Ones...assuming that the Death Company got the charge! (10 Death Company charge 15 Flayed Ones; all the death company die after 3 rounds, only killing half of the Flayed Ones.)
None of this was even counting the possibility of re-rolling 1's on RP. I'll reserve judgement until the book is released and we can see the army in action, but I think Necrons have been seriously buffed (unless I'm missing something huge). ~20 point Tomb Blades that are more survivable than T5 terminators just doesn't seem right...
Siphen wrote: I'm almost worried about how durable the new Necrons are looking to be. The units that are T5, 3+ armor, 4+ RP are practically immune to shooting.
A full unit of Missile Broadsides only kills 2 Praetorians. Four full squads of rapid firing marines with plasma guns (72 bolter shots and 8 plasma shots) barely kills 4 Tomb Blades. A full Centurion Star can only put down 3-4 Lychguard with shields!
Death Company get butchered by an equal amount of Flayed Ones...assuming that the Death Company got the charge! (10 Death Company charge 15 Flayed Ones; all the death company die after 3 rounds, only killing half of the Flayed Ones.)
None of this was even counting the possibility of re-rolling 1's on RP. I'll reserve judgement until the book is released and we can see the army in action, but I think Necrons have been seriously buffed (unless I'm missing something huge). ~20 point Tomb Blades that are more survivable than T5 terminators just doesn't seem right...
I tested the nightbringer against shield lychguards 3+/3++ and then 4+RP is amazing!
Now imagine the rumoured +1 to RP when taking that (****) decurion (sry) and rerolling 1's maybe ....
Automatically Appended Next Post: But there are some downsides to that defensive power: the price tax on the decurion, on the night scythes and annihilation-barges.
Yeah tomb blades want to be sold....
And the one use only abilities outside the Dec will need strategic skill again, that is good for skilled opponents one variable you cannot spam!
Other good thing is, that actually there will be less monobuilds and more different style games! Destroyers, Stalkers, Praetorians all good, all interesting maybe a three god build, lychguard spam (Oh I will do , that takes away a one-uber-thread situation in the meta hopefull.
Just double checked points. Nightbringer + 2 x Crypteks one with Solar Staff and the other with Veil of Darkness comes out to 410 points. Expensive, but, man, that would make your opponent gak themselves the turn it arrived. 8 T8 Wounds with 4++, FNP 5+ (or RP 4+), that can only be hit by snap shots, and spews out 6 S5 AP 3 shots (3 of which cause blind), Psychic Shriek, and random power of death? I mean, you could easily wipe a 10 man MEq the turn you arrived, netting about half your points back instantly.
It's definitely something worth playing around with. Of course, you would need to bring it along with a Mephryt Cad to get the God Schackle,
ShadarLogoth wrote: Just double checked points. Nightbringer + 2 x Crypteks one with Solar Staff and the other with Veil of Darkness comes out to 410 points. Expensive, but, man, that would make your opponent gak themselves the turn it arrived. 8 T8 Wounds with 4++, FNP 5+ (or RP 4+), that can only be hit by snap shots, and spews out 6 S5 AP 3 shots (3 of which cause blind), Psychic Shriek, and random power of death? I mean, you could easily wipe a 10 man MEq the turn you arrived, netting about half your points back instantly.
It's definitely something worth playing around with. Of course, you would need to bring it along with a Mephryt Cad to get the God Schackle,
Yeah that is absolutely cool!!! I will do it! Maybe little tweaks but yeah that is some center death piece of art right in the face : DD
skoffs wrote: You're going to have to explain that one for us...
Sure. Let's say that these Toughness 5 Terminators also have Storm Shields.
vs Tomb Blades
40 bolter shots. 40 x (2/3 to hit) x (1/3 to wound) x (1/3 armor save) x (1/2 with a 4+ RP) = 1.5 wounds dealt to the Tomb Blades.
vs Toughness 5 Terminators with Storm Shields
40 bolter shots. 40 x (2/3 to hit) x (1/3 to wound) x (1/6 armor save) = 1.5 wounds dealt to the T5 Terminators
So they are just as survivable against small arms fire. More so if you factor in re-rolling 1's for their RP.
vs Tomb Blades
10 Plasma Shots. 10 x (2/3 to hit) x (5/6 to wound) x (1/2 jink save) x (1/2 with a 4+ RP) = 1.38 wounds dealt to the Tomb Blades
vs Toughness 5 Terminators with Storm Shields
10 Plasma Shots. 10 x (2/3 to hit) x (5/6 to wound) x (1/3 invul save) = 1.85 wounds dealt to the Terminators with storm shields.
Again, unless I'm missing something. I kind of hope that I am.
skoffs wrote: You're going to have to explain that one for us...
Sure. Let's say that these Toughness 5 Terminators also have Storm Shields.
vs Tomb Blades
40 bolter shots. 40 x (2/3 to hit) x (1/3 to wound) x (1/3 armor save) x (1/2 with a 4+ RP) = 1.5 wounds dealt to the Tomb Blades.
vs Toughness 5 Terminators with Storm Shields
40 bolter shots. 40 x (2/3 to hit) x (1/3 to wound) x (1/6 armor save) = 1.5 wounds dealt to the T5 Terminators
So they are just as survivable against small arms fire. More so if you factor in re-rolling 1's for their RP.
vs Tomb Blades
10 Plasma Shots. 10 x (2/3 to hit) x (5/6 to wound) x (1/2 jink save) x (1/2 with a 4+ RP) = 1.38 wounds dealt to the Tomb Blades
vs Toughness 5 Terminators with Storm Shields
10 Plasma Shots. 10 x (2/3 to hit) x (5/6 to wound) x (1/3 invul save) = 1.85 wounds dealt to the Terminators with storm shields.
Again, unless I'm missing something. I kind of hope that I am.
But against plasma they had to jink, what make them less usefull in their next round.
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Redemption wrote: Are we sure that the Decurion detachment actually gives +1 to RP, or is someone just misreading the re-rolls of 1 rule it has?
He emphasizes that it is giving on a little extra box on the edge of a two page spread. And he said both things would stack! But I refuse to believe a little still!
changemod wrote: 10 point Warscythe, and I'm mostly sure that tomb blades are min 3 max 10 now.
Which is getting into "Why take immortals who aren't sitting on a turbo booster with twin linking" territory.
Oh they will be sold ... just because of their cool looks of course, model company first...it isn't their rules: ignoring cover, low points price, resilience and their must for the decurion...oh I feel this to be shameless.
Sorry for that, I have to get it out of my system.
Henker-Kind wrote: But against plasma they had to jink, what make them less usefull in their next round.
That's true, but a relatively minor point. Against all small arms fire, they're equivalent to T5 Terminators. Remember that they're only around 20 points each. And even jinking, the fact remains that they're insanely durable and can survive most of an army's shooting if they need to.
As another random side note, I think Flayed Ones might actually be one of the best cc units in the game. Can anyone find an equivalently costed unit that can bring them down? They absolutely wreck Death Company, Assault Terminators, Daemons of all kinds, every Tyranid. They even beat Bloodthirsters and invisible Daemon Princes in combat. I'm sure there's something that can beat them, but I'm having a hard time thinking of anything (obviously outside units they can't hurt like Dreadnoughts).
Henker-Kind wrote: But against plasma they had to jink, what make them less usefull in their next round.
That's true, but a relatively minor point. Against all small arms fire, they're equivalent to T5 Terminators. Remember that they're only around 20 points each. And even jinking, the fact remains that they're insanely durable and can survive most of an army's shooting if they need to.
As another random side note, I think Flayed Ones might actually be one of the best cc units in the game. Can anyone find an equivalently costed unit that can bring them down? They absolutely wreck Death Company, Assault Terminators, Daemons of all kinds, every Tyranid. They even beat Bloodthirsters and invisible Daemon Princes in combat. I'm sure there's something that can beat them, but I'm having a hard time thinking of anything (obviously outside units they can't hurt like Dreadnoughts).
wow dude, hard to imagine after so many years of using them - do you have an example: the bloodthirster?
So, now the vault has the tesla spheres also, what you you think is better, fielding a vault or fielding a obelisk+ctan, point wise its nearly the same....
stormcraft wrote: So, now the vault has the tesla spheres also, what you you think is better, fielding a vault or fielding a obelisk+ctan, point wise its nearly the same....
Sasori wrote: I imagine we will see an Obelisk in just about every list now. It's got an insane amount of firepower and durability for it's price.
but it is not OP and (at least to me) very necrony - "in every list" though is he tournament legal? If he would shift to heavy but he is still LOW i guess.
Sasori wrote: I imagine we will see an Obelisk in just about every list now. It's got an insane amount of firepower and durability for it's price.
but it is not OP and (at least to me) very necrony - "in every list" though is he tournament legal? If he would shift to heavy but he is still LOW i guess.
Hasn't it moved to heavy now? I'm sure someone said it has.... they could have been wrong though
Sasori wrote: I imagine we will see an Obelisk in just about every list now. It's got an insane amount of firepower and durability for it's price.
but it is not OP and (at least to me) very necrony - "in every list" though is he tournament legal? If he would shift to heavy but he is still LOW i guess.
Tournaments are going to be in an intreasting situation for Necrons in general, that warrants it's own topic.
It depends what you define as OP. It's incredibly Durable, and has an insane amount of firepower for 300 points.
Sasori wrote: I imagine we will see an Obelisk in just about every list now. It's got an insane amount of firepower and durability for it's price.
but it is not OP and (at least to me) very necrony - "in every list" though is he tournament legal? If he would shift to heavy but he is still LOW i guess.
Hasn't it moved to heavy now? I'm sure someone said it has.... they could have been wrong though
Tournaments are going to be in an intreasting situation for Necrons in general, that warrants it's own topic.
My thoughts exactly. Although, with most tournaments already allowing Night lances and such, the units themselves really shouldn't be much of an issue. The way the Detachments work, however, will be very interesting. Can I take Decurion + a normal CAD, for instance?
(not that I ever have the money or time to play in tournaments, lol, still an interesting question).
changemod wrote: Do we have confirmation you can take a Heavy Destroyer unit as Heavy Support by the way?
As far as I can tell, you can only upgrade 1 destroyer to heavy destroyer in a destroyer unit, so it doesn't seem likely. Doesn't make much sense having a heavy support unit consisting of 1 heavy destroyer, or is that just me?
Although, I do recall that jackedup guy mentioning that they were listed as both FA and HS - but keep in mind that he was not a Necron player and messed up a couple of other things (while sitting with the codex in his hands.. ehrm).
changemod wrote: Do we have confirmation you can take a Heavy Destroyer unit as Heavy Support by the way?
As far as I can tell, you can only upgrade 1 destroyer to heavy destroyer in a destroyer unit, so it doesn't seem likely. Doesn't make much sense having a heavy support unit consisting of 1 heavy destroyer, or is that just me?
Although, I do recall that jackedup guy mentioning that they were listed as both FA and HS - but keep in mind that he was not a Necron player and messed up a couple of other things (while sitting with the codex in his hands.. ehrm).
Yeah, that's what I'm asking after. If they have a separate HS entry where you can take multiples of them.
changemod wrote: Do we have confirmation you can take a Heavy Destroyer unit as Heavy Support by the way?
As far as I can tell, you can only upgrade 1 destroyer to heavy destroyer in a destroyer unit, so it doesn't seem likely. Doesn't make much sense having a heavy support unit consisting of 1 heavy destroyer, or is that just me?
Although, I do recall that jackedup guy mentioning that they were listed as both FA and HS - but keep in mind that he was not a Necron player and messed up a couple of other things (while sitting with the codex in his hands.. ehrm).
Yeah, that's what I'm asking after. If they have a separate HS entry where you can take multiples of them.
The Destroyer Cult formation has a unit of Heavy Destroyers in it, so it'll kind of odd for such a unit to not exist in the codex...
changemod wrote: Do we have confirmation you can take a Heavy Destroyer unit as Heavy Support by the way?
As far as I can tell, you can only upgrade 1 destroyer to heavy destroyer in a destroyer unit, so it doesn't seem likely. Doesn't make much sense having a heavy support unit consisting of 1 heavy destroyer, or is that just me?
Although, I do recall that jackedup guy mentioning that they were listed as both FA and HS - but keep in mind that he was not a Necron player and messed up a couple of other things (while sitting with the codex in his hands.. ehrm).
Yeah, that's what I'm asking after. If they have a separate HS entry where you can take multiples of them.
The Destroyer Cult formation has a unit of Heavy Destroyers in it, so it'll kind of odd for such a unit to not exist in the codex...
Well yeah, the unit exists for sure, but the question is whether or not it can be a heavy support choice?
Shieldvanes are so underpriced for what they give. 2 points to take a third less wounds (or every 3 wounds getting past a 4+, 2 get past a 3+) is crazy. The decurian is also insane if it gives 4+s (which is as good as the old We'll Be Back - I guess they didn't lie). How much are SM bikes?
Screaming Echo wrote: Harlequins? What a wasted opportunity. You'd think we'd get more than just a new mono-pose Overlord for a Codex release...
Why? Pretty much ALL of the Necron models are new(ish) with exception to the Warriors.
Need new kits for the Destroyers (everythings mono-pose, no heavy destroyer option in the kit), Destroyer Lords need a new kit, Flayed Ones should be in plastic and Warriors need either new bases in the kit or a rework so they don't look so bad on the 25mm ones. Also would be nice to have an actual Overlord kit with all the options.
Screaming Echo wrote: Harlequins? What a wasted opportunity. You'd think we'd get more than just a new mono-pose Overlord for a Codex release...
Why? Pretty much ALL of the Necron models are new(ish) with exception to the Warriors.
Need new kits for the Destroyers (everythings mono-pose, no heavy destroyer option in the kit), Destroyer Lords need a new kit, Flayed Ones should be in plastic and Warriors need either new bases in the kit or a rework so they don't look so bad on the 25mm ones. Also would be nice to have an actual Overlord kit with all the options.
You know I really like the warriors on the 25mm better - is this sort of a hype going on, because it is new? I think they all look goofy on 32mm bases on the 25 they look more like they come out into reality, the base is just minimal, so the model get's all the attention the 32mm bases look like carrying your piece of earth with you I always have to smile to myself seeing models on that renewed base size really not my thing.
I much prefer the Warriors on the 32s. They actually fit, for one, and there's much more room to do a good base job. So no it's not just hype because it's new.
Jaq Draco lives wrote: So is the Tomb Blade the clear winner for most buffed unit do we think?
Depends. They're certainly one of the biggest benefitted by the RP changes and the price drop. They're strong, but in honesty were nevr bad just outclassed
In terms of most improved, that must be flayed ones or Praetorians. They've gone from joke units to formidable murder machines. The best unit is wraiths - they're just so good now, I don't even know what beats them. Can someone mathhammer 6 vs a knight?
Szeras may see more play, effectively being the only destructek left, plus buffing warriors/Immortals up and giving his passive buff. Assuming tournaments ban the super detachment (let's be honest, it looks super op) then he's a solid choice.
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ImAGeek wrote: I much prefer the Warriors on the 32s. They actually fit, for one, and there's much more room to do a good base job. So no it's not just hype because it's new.
Me too. They are a bit more stable too, which is nice.
Riiiiiight. But that's not what it says. It doesn't say they aren't slowed. It doesn't say they are or aren't affected. It says "when moving treat as open ground." If I'm treating it as open ground and open ground does not reduce initiative, then my iniitiative is not lowered.
Compare that with the beasts rules (who most definitely are reduced to I1 if they charge through difficult). It says ignore movement penalties or some such. This is very different wording to anything in the past.
Different wording, same thing.
plus they still assault a unit that is IN the Terrain, and not a single thing changes that fact.
is like the fething Gravtard argument all over again...
It explicitly states to treat it as open ground, what more do you want??
Would you have liked it better if it read "remove all difficult terrain from the board whenever a Wraith squads moves and return it into place afterwards"?
No simply do it like Flip belts for Arlys, where it explicitly says they are not penalised by the terrain for their init, even though they also ignores/trait difficult terrain as open.
So tell me, why with the Arlys it is explicatly said like this, when for the Wraith it isn't?...
Simple, because Wraiths can't do it.
Yay you showed us yet another rule saying "Not slowed by"
Not slowed by does NOT equal treats as open terrain.
Open terrain does not reduce initiative
I think the point is GW is pretty specific about their wording on how you get around the initiative penalty. Regardless I'd play with them being slowed and only change my tune on that if GW said they weren't.
At first, I was completely on board with this, but then I started to look at other aspects of the Wraith rules....they are already Beasts, so they already had the "not slowed by difficult terrain", so why did they need Wraithflight if it just provides the same benefit? Since its specifically worded as "treats as open ground", and the Harlequin still uses the "not slowed by difficult terrain" wording, I'm shifting toward the more broken interpretation sadly. Now if this was intended to be used as just a part of basic movement or if the "charge move" is to be included is the real question IMO. I don't have my book with me, but I seem to remember the BRB stating a specific difference between the two. Since the codex doesn't specify, and if the BRB doesn't explicitly state charging is not moving, I'll be fine if my opponent uses the "No Initiative Penalty" interpretation if he so chooses, even though it is insanely broken.
Anyone know how many points the Necron boxed army "Tomb Awakened" might be? VERY tempted to look at starting a small force, but want to make sure I'm getting my money's worth since it would be funds taken away from Warmachine. It seems I always go around this when there's something new, and then write it off as lacking in value, rules or both
Dr. Delorean wrote: Both exist - you can take a FA destroyer unit and upgrade one of them to a Heavy for 10pts
Or you can take Heavies themselves as HS choices, though I cannot recall their min and max unit sizes.
That makes more sense, but woah it would have been nice with some new kits. Assuming a minimum heavy destroyer unit of 3, that's £46.5... For the minimum unit!
Screaming Echo wrote: Harlequins? What a wasted opportunity. You'd think we'd get more than just a new mono-pose Overlord for a Codex release...
Why? Pretty much ALL of the Necron models are new(ish) with exception to the Warriors.
Need new kits for the Destroyers (everythings mono-pose, no heavy destroyer option in the kit), Destroyer Lords need a new kit, Flayed Ones should be in plastic and Warriors need either new bases in the kit or a rework so they don't look so bad on the 25mm ones. Also would be nice to have an actual Overlord kit with all the options.
Destroyers- not really sure you need to fiddle with them that much IMO. Maybe more Necron bling on them. Destroyer lords are pretty easy conversion fodder so I don't have any issues there. Flayed ones- difficult to redo in plastic without a shedload of options. How many varieties of snippy claw do they really need?