pinecone77 wrote: Yep I saw that one before the tourney, when they posted the lists for double check. It grabbed my attention. Jormangandr Gunfexen, with GSC Infantry! I'm glad it did well. If he went undefeated, how did he place?
Looks like he took 12th, and anouther Nid took 11th. Not to shabby!
I'd say, If you have the models, GSC infantry with a Jormagandr, or possably Kronos can do some work.
Roberts list was very interesting. Saw it play on a table nearby to me and he seemed to be having a good time with it.
I'm the Nid guy who came 11th (actually 8th now the scores have all been sorted.) and took top tyranids. It was a pretty decent result for the Nids, especially considering some horror show match ups.
Went into the event knowing the match up I really didn't want was a nurgle daemons horde. Hit it twice, both times in the kill points missions. I also drew Joshua Death (#1 ITC player currently) round one. Managed to scrabble my way to a win in that round as well (only player to take any pts off him at all. He went 20-0 in his other 4 rounds)
Congrats! I'm glad you'all had some good games, there seems to be a great deal of unhappiness about the way things were run.
Luck is a major part of this game, if you hit that hard counter, it can mess you up. If you have the time, I am sure I'd like to read a snop. of how your games went.
I posted before reading... Tah!
Thanks dude, synopsis above as you spotted. Yeh my match up luck was pretty horrendous. Still came out alright in the end. The game with Josh is one of the best I've ever got to play.
Dynas wrote:Nice writeup. Curious as to why you took Purestrain GS, over just regular GS. Did you find the GSC ambush tactic was worth the extra cost in points over regular Nid dex GS?
The purestrains are a beta strike. Considering the amount of gunlines and ambush armies I was expecting it was very useful to have a unit off the board nice and safe that offered a hell of a counter punch. If I hit a guard gunline or similar they are amazing for hostaging a guy and touching all the toys to stop them shooting as well. Both in the game against Joshs ambush Stygies and my round 4's death company and aggressor ambush they were super useful. I also got work out of them as the nurgle daemon hordes moved forward and left me space to pop up behind them and exert pressure on both sides with the two kinds of genestealers.
luke1705 wrote:
SHUPPET wrote: I think it's good. I also think he's 33 points away from making Battalion so he should maybe (probably) look for a way to find that
I’m sure he would have if the tournament didn’t have a no duplicate detachment restriction
SHUPPET wrote: I think it's good. I also think he's 33 points away from making Battalion so he should maybe (probably) look for a way to find that
Yup. I think he should drop pure strain GS and pick up that ripper unit. Then take either reg genestealers. I think that would do it, your paying a premium on GSC purestrains for the ambush rule.
SHUPPET wrote: I think it's good. I also think he's 33 points away from making Battalion so he should maybe (probably) look for a way to find that
Yup. I think he should drop pure strain GS and pick up that ripper unit. Then take either reg genestealers. I think that would do it, your paying a premium on GSC purestrains for the ambush rule. But that being said, with how he is using them it might hurt his list. Who know, it seemed to work well.
Against something with a high invuln like Custodes or certain daemons they probably break even. And against something stacking -1/2 hit penalties it still drops its spore mine payload.
Right now I'm working on painting up more Genestealers and a Malanthrope for my evenutal 'stealer shock army. Between then and now, I'm going to be taking a break from the hordes and so I"m going to be playing my favorite model, the mighty Trygon. I hammered together a quick big monster list, and would like to share it with you all now.
Some of the Hive Fleet choices seem kinda weird IMO.
You put two Winged HTs in Jormungandr, who'll never even benefit from the Adaptation since they fly, and who would much rather be Kraken instead. (Flyrant with Opportunistic Advance, Adrenalin Glands and casting Onslaught can move between 20"-30" in a single Turn, easily jumping over screens to get at vulnerable units, and can then fall back, shoot and charge again.)
The Neurothrope also seems it would work better in Jormungandr, maybe as the Warlord giving the T-Fexes Ignores Cover? Would also have the benefit of making an untargetable character your warlord.
I think the only real problem you'll run into is that you have no screen to protect your Hive Guard from deepstrikers, but because of the FAQ you should be pretty fine, at least T1.
So, I'd mainly just try to swap around the Neurothrope and Flyrants so that you can get at least on Tyrant into Kraken for Opportunistic Advance, two would be better.
Finally, are you sure you got the points right? You seem to be a good 100 points over 2000. Do you know that the FAQ upped the price of Flyrants?
You put two Winged HTs in Jormungandr, who'll never even benefit from the Adaptation since they fly, and who would much rather be Kraken instead. (Flyrant with Opportunistic Advance, Adrenalin Glands and casting Onslaught can move between 20"-30" in a single Turn, easily jumping over screens to get at vulnerable units, and can then fall back, shoot and charge again.)
The Neurothrope also seems it would work better in Jormungandr, maybe as the Warlord giving the T-Fexes Ignores Cover? Would also have the benefit of making an untargetable character your warlord.
I think the only real problem you'll run into is that you have no screen to protect your Hive Guard from deepstrikers, but because of the FAQ you should be pretty fine, at least T1.
So, I'd mainly just try to swap around the Neurothrope and Flyrants so that you can get at least on Tyrant into Kraken for Opportunistic Advance, two would be better.
Finally, are you sure you got the points right? You seem to be a good 100 points over 2000. Do you know that the FAQ upped the price of Flyrants?
Opportunistic advance does not work on flying models either, but fall back and charge is indeed nice.
Went up again Necrons for practice list for ITC.
My list is posted a few pages back.
He ran:
FW Lord
7x Tesla Immortals
C'tan Deceiver
3x Tesseract Vaults
I basically used all shooting to focus fire one TV and my melee to focus the another one. Ignore the 3rd. Managed to get turn 1 charge with hormies. Table deployment was Hammer and Anvil.
Score was 16-13 Victory, Recon and Titan Slayer won it for me. I managed to kill 2 vaults and his deceiver. We played through 3 turns and timed out. I had movement trays, but still found it took a while to roll all those dice.
Good to know I can survive that list. C'tan powers are nasty and Kronos doesn't do a damn thing against them which really sucked.
Hey, chaps, with the new codex actually looking pretty good I was wondering about dusting off my nids and giving them a go in the near future.
Here's the thing, I haven't played since 5th so I've got no clue whether I've even got the models for a viable army anymore.
This is what I've got:
- 1 Hive Tyrant (on foot)
- 1 Tyranid Prime
- 1 Broodlord
- 1 Zoanthrope/Neurothrope
- 1 Venomthrope
- 1 Hive Guard
- 2 Lictors
- 9 Warriors
- 18 Termagants
- 8 Hormagants (could probably proxy as Termagants or vice versa)
- 16 Genestealers (including 5 Necron-hybrid things that I could probably press into service )
- 2 Lictors
- 2 Carnifexes
(My group doesn't bother with WISIWIG, so wargear can be whatever.)
We usually play at 1500pts. Do I have enough to make a halfway-decent list at that size? If so, any recommendations on what to use?
I feel like Genestealers are a little too strong. Everytime I try to play around with a melee list I always just end up on "why aren't I just putting these points into Genestealers"
SHUPPET wrote: I feel like Genestealers are a little too strong. Everytime I try to play around with a melee list I always just end up on "why aren't I just putting these points into Genestealers"
Yes they are the best melee we have.
No they are not too good the rest of our melee stuff needs a slight buff.
For example ether Homigaunts need ether to go to 4 ppm or they need a touch more survivability (I'd give them a 5+ armor save) for the extra point and both upgrades need to be 1 ppm.
SHUPPET wrote: I feel like Genestealers are a little too strong. Everytime I try to play around with a melee list I always just end up on "why aren't I just putting these points into Genestealers"
Yes they are the best melee we have.
No they are not too good the rest of our melee stuff needs a slight buff.
For example ether Homigaunts need ether to go to 4 ppm or they need a touch more survivability (I'd give them a 5+ armor save) for the extra point and both upgrades need to be 1 ppm.
Extended Carapace Hormies? might work.
I just charge turn 1 and use swarmy move twice or Kraken opportunisit advance. Pile in and conslidate into the guns lines.
Sinful Hero wrote: Surprised no one’s talking about the “Poverty Tyranids” list that went undefeated at London-
The cheap Neophyte squads threw me for a loop. I’ve been finding out that Venom cannons are fun myself.
An high placing list featuring no flyrants and a single walkrant...I thought this day would never come
pretty odd to go for the acid maw on a HVC fex. Enhanced senses are better on that fex. I usually run 2 dakka fex with acid maw though. You want your HVC hitting - it is very important.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Since the nerf to FHT I have moved to playing Nidzilla and apart from having a lot of fun - It been doing really well for me.
Typically I am shoving haruspex into opponents with swarmlord turn 1. Something most people will not realize until it's too late is this puppy blows up like a boss. auto 3 mortals to everything in range when you roll a 6 to explode (yeah you are going to want to reroll this every time). He will pay for himself on an explosion usually and he can also do some serious damage before that if you get lucky (why this thing hits on 4's...I have no freaking clue) Anyways - T8 is marginally helpful for this guy.
I've also been running Toxicrines (which are surprisingly awesome for me) I ran 3 last game. Same as Haruspex it's a great mortal wound generator. Except he excels in CC where the haruspex is kind of middling but has higher damage potential. He also shoots pretty well. He loses a wound and goes to t7 but is much cheaper too. Personally I think the Toxicrine is the best CC unit in the game for it's cost certainly in the nid codex anyways.
Basically he screens with the Rangers. Then turtles with the Reapers and casters and uses Intercept vs any deepstrikers. The Shining Speers zip into back line and grab objectives or table quarters.
Looking at beating a list similar to this using all the current FAQ and beta rules in an ITC format. Things to watch out for, plans for, what units to priortize, what would be best against it, worst against it. Things like that. Any ideas or help would be appreciated.
Dynas wrote: How to beat Ynnari/Alaitoc ITC format.
Basically he screens with the Rangers. Then turtles with the Reapers and casters and uses Intercept vs any deepstrikers. The Shining Speers zip into back line and grab objectives or table quarters.
Looking at beating a list similar to this using all the current FAQ and beta rules in an ITC format. Things to watch out for, plans for, what units to priortize, what would be best against it, worst against it. Things like that. Any ideas or help would be appreciated.
SHUPPET wrote: I feel like Genestealers are a little too strong. Everytime I try to play around with a melee list I always just end up on "why aren't I just putting these points into Genestealers"
Yes they are the best melee we have.
No they are not too good the rest of our melee stuff needs a slight buff.
For example ether Homigaunts need ether to go to 4 ppm or they need a touch more survivability (I'd give them a 5+ armor save) for the extra point and both upgrades need to be 1 ppm.
I don't understand why GW kept all our infantry costs the same...I mean all codices had their infantry lowered by at least 1 point whilst we were stuck with 5TH unacceptable infantry pricing. Hormagaunts are NOWHERE worth 5 ppm (whilst GSC Hybrids are definitely worth their cost even now from an Index perspective) and things like Gargoyle are glorified Termagants with +50% point increase for Fly, +6" and an useless rule that do not last even a turn in CQC)
I don't think it's at all realistic to expect to have the entire dex buffed to match the level of one unit. There is some important changes I'd like to see, but I'm return for that I don't think it's unfair if GW tones down Stealers, they are sitting at a value the rest of our dex struggles to match atm.
SHUPPET wrote: I don't think it's at all realistic to expect to have the entire dex buffed to match the level of one unit. There is some important changes I'd like to see, but I'm return for that I don't think it's unfair if GW tones down Stealers, they are sitting at a value the rest of our dex struggles to match atm.
Nerfing Stealer would be the epithome of design INCOMPETENCE. You ain't touching what's fine since they drop like butterflies when you look at them and they haven't been winning anything so far
SHUPPET wrote: I don't think it's at all realistic to expect to have the entire dex buffed to match the level of one unit. There is some important changes I'd like to see, but I'm return for that I don't think it's unfair if GW tones down Stealers, they are sitting at a value the rest of our dex struggles to match atm.
Nerfing Stealer would be the epithome of design INCOMPETENCE. You ain't touching what's fine since they drop like butterflies when you look at them and they haven't been winning anything so far
That's a bit of an overstatement mate, sounds a bit like bias towards your own army. Ideally Genestealers will be toned down to the level of every other CC unit in the dex. Anything significantly below that line can get tuned up, but I don't think there is all that much which is actually that bad - Stealers presence just makes a whole bunch of units redundant. There's zero chance GW is going to buff the entirety of the dex to the level of Stealers, and honestly nor should they. If your argument against that, is the broken dexes out there in wild, they what you should be asking for is their offending units to be toned down, it's far more realistic and a much better way of approaching balance than "my army isn't the most op there is so screw internal balance until it is".
SHUPPET wrote: I don't think it's at all realistic to expect to have the entire dex buffed to match the level of one unit. There is some important changes I'd like to see, but I'm return for that I don't think it's unfair if GW tones down Stealers, they are sitting at a value the rest of our dex struggles to match atm.
Nerfing Stealer would be the epithome of design INCOMPETENCE. You ain't touching what's fine since they drop like butterflies when you look at them and they haven't been winning anything so far
That's a bit of an overstatement mate, sounds a bit like bias towards your own army. Ideally Genestealers will be toned down to the level of every other CC unit in the dex. Anything significantly below that line can get tuned up, but I don't think there is all that much unplayable - Stealers presence just makes a whole bunch of units redundant. There's zero chance GW is going to buff the entirety of the dex to the level of Stealers, and honestly nor should they. If your argument against that, is the broken dexes out there in wild, they what you should be asking for is their offending units to be toned down, it's far more realistic and a much better way of approaching balance than "my army isn't the most op there is so screw internal balance until it is".
I have multiple armies and actively nerfing a well design CQC unit to mediocre levels is not something a game designer should aim to. It's like asking every shooting unit to be useless like a Tactical Space Marine or the equivalent Assault Space Marine in the other case. You always try to improve units to decent levels of usability, not the other way around (aka nerf them into the oblivion without a reason to do so)
vipoid wrote: Hey, chaps, with the new codex actually looking pretty good I was wondering about dusting off my nids and giving them a go in the near future.
Here's the thing, I haven't played since 5th so I've got no clue whether I've even got the models for a viable army anymore.
This is what I've got:
- 1 Hive Tyrant (on foot)
- 1 Tyranid Prime
- 1 Broodlord
- 1 Zoanthrope/Neurothrope
- 1 Venomthrope
- 1 Hive Guard
- 2 Lictors
- 9 Warriors
- 18 Termagants
- 8 Hormagants (could probably proxy as Termagants or vice versa)
- 16 Genestealers (including 5 Necron-hybrid things that I could probably press into service )
- 2 Lictors
- 2 Carnifexes
(My group doesn't bother with WISIWIG, so wargear can be whatever.)
We usually play at 1500pts. Do I have enough to make a halfway-decent list at that size? If so, any recommendations on what to use?
Unfortunately for Zoans, Hive Guard, and Venomthropes their minimum unit size is 3 now. I’d go with your Carnifexes, Tyrant, Broodlord, and Genestealers for sure. Warriors can be fun with Boneswords, Deathspitters, and Venom Cannons in my experience. The Prime nearby can help land those hits, but he’s a bit pricey for what he brings to a list.
I have multiple armies and actively nerfing a well design CQC unit to mediocre levels is not something a game designer should aim to. It's like asking every shooting unit to be useless like a Tactical Space Marine or the equivalent Assault Space Marine in the other case. You always try to improve units to decent levels of usability, not the other way around (aka nerf them into the oblivion without a reason to do so)
Yeah there's definitely a middle ground between "so strong it pretty much invalidates every other cc unit in the dex" and "nerfed into oblivion". The measure of competence is being able to find it.
I have multiple armies and actively nerfing a well design CQC unit to mediocre levels is not something a game designer should aim to. It's like asking every shooting unit to be useless like a Tactical Space Marine or the equivalent Assault Space Marine in the other case. You always try to improve units to decent levels of usability, not the other way around (aka nerf them into the oblivion without a reason to do so)
Yeah there's definitely a middle ground between "so strong it pretty much invalidates every other cc unit in the dex" and "nerfed into oblivion". The measure of competence is being able to find it.
Genestealers invalidate other CQC options because they are BAD (few of them in terms of pure effectiveness, most due to their pricing). Nerfing Genestealers instead of proper buffing such units would make the Tyranid codex completely inept at Melee combat
I have multiple armies and actively nerfing a well design CQC unit to mediocre levels is not something a game designer should aim to. It's like asking every shooting unit to be useless like a Tactical Space Marine or the equivalent Assault Space Marine in the other case. You always try to improve units to decent levels of usability, not the other way around (aka nerf them into the oblivion without a reason to do so)
Yeah there's definitely a middle ground between "so strong it pretty much invalidates every other cc unit in the dex" and "nerfed into oblivion". The measure of competence is being able to find it.
Genestealers invalidate other CQC options because they are BAD (few of them in terms of pure effectiveness, most due to their pricing). Nerfing Genestealers instead of proper buffing such units would make the Tyranid codex completely inept at Melee combat
They really aren't, most are in a pretty good spot, just a pointless inclusion in a dex that has a unit as strong as Stealers. Lot of Doom & Gloom from you, I think you are downplaying more than a little, but let's agree to disagree.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheFleshIsWeak wrote: Can I ask what you guys think about the nid artefacts? Any standouts ones?
They are kinda just there and not very interesting at all.
TheFleshIsWeak wrote: Can I ask what you guys think about the nid artefacts? Any standouts ones?
Chameleonic Mutation is fantastic. Ymgarl Factor on a Broodlord or choppy HQ can be fun, especially in smaller point games. They’re all usually upgrades to a weapon if you already have it, aside from the Miasma Cannon which is more of a Sidegrade.
I put chameleonic mutation on Tyrants and run them next to venom/malanthropes for something that never dies. The miasma cannon is nice to get around your degrading profile. The old one eye Talons in combination with the right trait are excellent for one-shotting nearly anything.
Is a Tyrannofex with acid spray in the drop pod dream of mine gone with the beta rules? I have been play testing this and it's remarkably effective. T8, weapon beasts,2d6 strength user ap-1, plus stinger slavo, with drop pod deathspitters is a huge pain in the ass. Both would soke up so much firepower while my cc elements move into place. Can't see this working a turn later. Thoughts?
TommyBoy13 wrote: Is a Tyrannofex with acid spray in the drop pod dream of mine gone with the beta rules? I have been play testing this and it's remarkably effective. T8, weapon beasts,2d6 strength user ap-1, plus stinger slavo, with drop pod deathspitters is a huge pain in the ass. Both would soke up so much firepower while my cc elements move into place. Can't see this working a turn later. Thoughts?
It would be nice but AFAIK deepstrike counts as having means they don't get to weapon beast on the turn they enter.I think it needs somestuff coming in with it just to make sure it gets to do its thing, and then you've already spent a ton of points, so I dunno
It can still work. One of the main uses for acid spray tyrannofexes is killing flyers, who like to zoom into your deployment zone turn 1 and blow stuff up. You can still drop the ’Fex in your zone turn 1 to roast it.
TommyBoy13 wrote: Is a Tyrannofex with acid spray in the drop pod dream of mine gone with the beta rules? I have been play testing this and it's remarkably effective. T8, weapon beasts,2d6 strength user ap-1, plus stinger slavo, with drop pod deathspitters is a huge pain in the ass. Both would soke up so much firepower while my cc elements move into place. Can't see this working a turn later. Thoughts?
It would be nice but AFAIK deepstrike counts as having means they don't get to weapon beast on the turn they enter.I think it needs somestuff coming in with it just to make sure it gets to do its thing, and then you've already spent a ton of points, so I dunno
Your right for sure. Another aspect is of it is the old 'distraction Carnefex' idea. A decent amount of fire power has to be used to bring it down, this gives your GS's a decent amount of breathing space to do what they need to do. Also resilient to charges.
It can still work. One of the main uses for acid spray tyrannofexes is killing flyers, who like to zoom into your deployment zone turn 1 and blow stuff up. You can still drop the ’Fex in your zone turn 1 to roast it.
That's a great use!! Always forget about auto-hit and flyers!
Unfortunately for Zoans, Hive Guard, and Venomthropes their minimum unit size is 3 now.
Ah, that's unfortunate. The Venomthrope isn't assembled yet, maybe I could swap out the arms and use it as a Neurothrope?
Sinful Hero wrote: I’d go with your Carnifexes, Tyrant, Broodlord, and Genestealers for sure. Warriors can be fun with Boneswords, Deathspitters, and Venom Cannons in my experience. The Prime nearby can help land those hits, but he’s a bit pricey for what he brings to a list.
Okay, thanks, I'll have a go at making a list out of those.
Is there any Hive Fleet that would work well with those units? I like the Hydra and Kronos warlord traits, but neither of them seem like a good fit in terms of their army-wide bonuses.
Typically I am shoving haruspex into opponents with swarmlord turn 1. Something most people will not realize until it's too late is this puppy blows up like a boss. auto 3 mortals to everything in range when you roll a 6 to explode (yeah you are going to want to reroll this every time). He will pay for himself on an explosion usually and he can also do some serious damage before that if you get lucky (why this thing hits on 4's...I have no freaking clue) Anyways - T8 is marginally helpful for this guy.
I've also been running Toxicrines (which are surprisingly awesome for me) I ran 3 last game. Same as Haruspex it's a great mortal wound generator. Except he excels in CC where the haruspex is kind of middling but has higher damage potential. He also shoots pretty well. He loses a wound and goes to t7 but is much cheaper too. Personally I think the Toxicrine is the best CC unit in the game for it's cost certainly in the nid codex anyways.
Harr harr, nice trolling!
About Shuppets cries for Genestealer nerfs -
SHUPPET wrote: I haven't played the new edition of Nids yet
I see... Well, get back to us then after a solid round of games against Eldar, Drukhari, Tau, AM gunlines, Nurgle hordes, etc, and let's see if you stll want to pluck out the teeth of Tyranid cc.
I agree with the rest of you, nerfing the viable cc units for Tyranids would only make sense if Tyranids were the only faction in the game.
Badablack wrote: I put chameleonic mutation on Tyrants and run them next to venom/malanthropes for something that never dies. The miasma cannon is nice to get around your degrading profile. The old one eye Talons in combination with the right trait are excellent for one-shotting nearly anything.
Would you take Miasma or Stanglethorn cannon? The Stranglethorn ignores invul and can tear through some good untis like daemons, drukhari, necron wraiths, bikers, etc...I keep going back and forth. Looking at deciding for a tourney which one to take.
I've been having some success with the relic heavy venom cannon.
Really like the auto hits within 8" for the overwatch. Has got me out of a few sticky situations. Also makes my flyrant even better at hunting fliers.
Unfortunately for Zoans, Hive Guard, and Venomthropes their minimum unit size is 3 now.
Ah, that's unfortunate. The Venomthrope isn't assembled yet, maybe I could swap out the arms and use it as a Neurothrope?
If your group doesn’t care about WYSIWYG just use your Zoanthrope- it’d be more similar in size. Venomthropes are in a good spot right now- you might be better off adding more to your list than converting it to something else.
Sinful Hero wrote: I’d go with your Carnifexes, Tyrant, Broodlord, and Genestealers for sure. Warriors can be fun with Boneswords, Deathspitters, and Venom Cannons in my experience. The Prime nearby can help land those hits, but he’s a bit pricey for what he brings to a list.
Okay, thanks, I'll have a go at making a list out of those.
Is there any Hive Fleet that would work well with those units? I like the Hydra and Kronos warlord traits, but neither of them seem like a good fit in terms of their army-wide bonuses.
Kraken is the best generalist Trait imo- helps you get your Nids where they need to be, plus Chameonlic Mutation(-1 to ranged Hits) is perfect for a Hive Tyrant. Kronos is good too if you play against quite a few psykers. Jormundgandr helps out a shooty list well, and anything that doesn’t fly or Advance. Don’t forget that separate detachments can have different traits, so you could put your tyrant, Broodlord, and Genestealers/hormagaunts in a Kraken detachment for better Advance rolls and chameleonic mutation, then Carnifexes, Neurothrope, and Termagants/Warriors in Jormungandr to better protect them.
Sneggy wrote: I've been having some success with the relic heavy venom cannon.
Really like the auto hits within 8" for the overwatch. Has got me out of a few sticky situations. Also makes my flyrant even better at hunting fliers.
You are getting charged lol? Normally Im doing the charging.
as shocking as it may seem there are plenty of armies out there which enjoy charging just as much as we do. Not least the massive abundance of shield captains/regular custodes on jetbikes who love themselves a bit of flyrant skewering.
I have multiple armies and actively nerfing a well design CQC unit to mediocre levels is not something a game designer should aim to. It's like asking every shooting unit to be useless like a Tactical Space Marine or the equivalent Assault Space Marine in the other case. You always try to improve units to decent levels of usability, not the other way around (aka nerf them into the oblivion without a reason to do so)
Yeah there's definitely a middle ground between "so strong it pretty much invalidates every other cc unit in the dex" and "nerfed into oblivion". The measure of competence is being able to find it.
Geensteelers perform at the top level but they aren't overpowering other powerful armies so I wouldn't say they are a problem. Gaunts are much worse than other armies infantry but they are ultimately immune to morale so that makes them worth their points IMO. Warriors should probably have a 3+ save - that's about the only change I would make to Nid infantry.
If your group doesn’t care about WYSIWYG just use your Zoanthrope- it’d be more similar in size.
That's true. However, it's one of the old metal ones and I just really hate the design.
Sinful Hero wrote: Venomthropes are in a good spot right now- you might be better off adding more to your list than converting it to something else.
Ah, okay. I guess if I got the box of 3, I could turn 2 into Venomthropes and make the third into a proper Neurothrope. Might hold off on that, though. I'd like to play some test games before investing £40 into 3 models.
Kraken is the best generalist Trait imo- helps you get your Nids where they need to be, plus Chameonlic Mutation(-1 to ranged Hits) is perfect for a Hive Tyrant. Kronos is good too if you play against quite a few psykers. Jormundgandr helps out a shooty list well, and anything that doesn’t fly or Advance. Don’t forget that separate detachments can have different traits, so you could put your tyrant, Broodlord, and Genestealers/hormagaunts in a Kraken detachment for better Advance rolls and chameleonic mutation, then Carnifexes, Neurothrope, and Termagants/Warriors in Jormungandr to better protect them.
I have multiple armies and actively nerfing a well design CQC unit to mediocre levels is not something a game designer should aim to. It's like asking every shooting unit to be useless like a Tactical Space Marine or the equivalent Assault Space Marine in the other case. You always try to improve units to decent levels of usability, not the other way around (aka nerf them into the oblivion without a reason to do so)
Yeah there's definitely a middle ground between "so strong it pretty much invalidates every other cc unit in the dex" and "nerfed into oblivion". The measure of competence is being able to find it.
Geensteelers perform at the top level but they aren't overpowering other powerful armies so I wouldn't say they are a problem. Gaunts are much worse than other armies infantry but they are ultimately immune to morale so that makes them worth their points IMO. Warriors should probably have a 3+ save - that's about the only change I would make to Nid infantry.
Only if in synapse. I have had hormies charge outside synapse by mistake before. That sucked. I think if hormies had a 5+ then we would see more of them. Same with termies. That would put them in line with guardsmen.
Getting into wish listing though.
Overall all out troop choices are solid and each has its own niche.
Typically I am shoving haruspex into opponents with swarmlord turn 1. Something most people will not realize until it's too late is this puppy blows up like a boss. auto 3 mortals to everything in range when you roll a 6 to explode (yeah you are going to want to reroll this every time). He will pay for himself on an explosion usually and he can also do some serious damage before that if you get lucky (why this thing hits on 4's...I have no freaking clue) Anyways - T8 is marginally helpful for this guy.
I've also been running Toxicrines (which are surprisingly awesome for me) I ran 3 last game. Same as Haruspex it's a great mortal wound generator. Except he excels in CC where the haruspex is kind of middling but has higher damage potential. He also shoots pretty well. He loses a wound and goes to t7 but is much cheaper too. Personally I think the Toxicrine is the best CC unit in the game for it's cost certainly in the nid codex anyways.
Harr harr, nice trolling!
NIB, if you talk about Haruspex and Toxicrene in regards of trolling, they have their uses. And seeing them so seldom makes them sometimes very great, because noone expects them.
The damage output of a Toxicrene in close combat is nothing to laught about, especially if its in combat with multiple models. Its more like a suicide bomber, but still durable. The only problem is to get it reliable into cc range. I tested them myself a couple of times, with a bit of dice luck they can lay out a lot of hurt on expensive units and screens. The closer the enemy comes, the better for you.
Good points, I need to moving things around to take advantage of the Hive Fleets better. I like the Kronos Warlord for the Trait, but having the Tyrant be warlord gives up lots of easy target priority.
About the Hive Tyrant points. I knew the FAQ changed it, I complained about the FAQ changing it, but I forgot update my list building spreadsheet and got it wrong. Thanks for the catch, keeps me from being embarrassed bringing an illegal list to another event.
I think I'm going to have to drop the Hive Guard to keep the Tyrants. Maybe run a small unit of them, or put in a warriors squad for objective camping.
Badablack wrote: I put chameleonic mutation on Tyrants and run them next to venom/malanthropes for something that never dies. The miasma cannon is nice to get around your degrading profile. The old one eye Talons in combination with the right trait are excellent for one-shotting nearly anything.
Would you take Miasma or Stanglethorn cannon? The Stranglethorn ignores invul and can tear through some good untis like daemons, drukhari, necron wraiths, bikers, etc...I keep going back and forth. Looking at deciding for a tourney which one to take.
I’d say the miasma cannon beats out the balethorn. Balethorn ignores invulns but it’s only -1 ap, which severely limits its usefulness against most targets. Youre also not limited to a Kronos Detachment.
SHUPPET wrote: I haven't played the new edition of Nids yet
I see... Well, get back to us then after a solid round of games against Eldar, Drukhari, Tau, AM gunlines, Nurgle hordes, etc, and let's see if you stll want to pluck out the teeth of Tyranid cc.
I agree with the rest of you, nerfing the viable cc units for Tyranids would only make sense if Tyranids were the only faction in the game.
You really went back to my post from way back in April, when we're just about to hit June now? I've been playing games throughout the week + multiple games on the weekend since. I've played against everything you listed except for Eldar. Which is also a matter of time as my Eldar opponent been out of town, but we'll get there. What sort of immature checkmate was this meant to be?
KurtAngle2 wrote: Don't bother commenting on SHUPPET views, he clearly has no knowledge of the game
I have a decade of knowledge on the game. Aren't you the guy who recommended Genestealers back 6TH, and to use them with Swarmlord? And gets upset at people who took three or more of the same unit? Lol. You've been spamming these downright terrible opinions on here years now, but when you start attacking me just because you disagree with what I say, that's when I start chuckling. And insult from someone like you is probably more of a compliment.
I have multiple armies and actively nerfing a well design CQC unit to mediocre levels is not something a game designer should aim to. It's like asking every shooting unit to be useless like a Tactical Space Marine or the equivalent Assault Space Marine in the other case. You always try to improve units to decent levels of usability, not the other way around (aka nerf them into the oblivion without a reason to do so)
Yeah there's definitely a middle ground between "so strong it pretty much invalidates every other cc unit in the dex" and "nerfed into oblivion". The measure of competence is being able to find it.
Geensteelers perform at the top level but they aren't overpowering other powerful armies so I wouldn't say they are a problem. Gaunts are much worse than other armies infantry but they are ultimately immune to morale so that makes them worth their points IMO. Warriors should probably have a 3+ save - that's about the only change I would make to Nid infantry.
A reasonable approach - but my problem is that Genestealers outclass the rest of the dex, and are unbalanced internally, and are also one of the strongest CC's units in the meta currently. What the people pointing outside of the dex at other OP things are missing, is that I would like points reductions to that too. I would like everything brought down to a sensible level, and with that, I think Genestealers are the offending unit in our dex.
I've posted 3 armies I'm considering using this weekend in a 1500pt tournament. I would love some Comments and advice on them if you would go to the army lists section. Thx
SHUPPET wrote: I haven't played the new edition of Nids yet
I see... Well, get back to us then after a solid round of games against Eldar, Drukhari, Tau, AM gunlines, Nurgle hordes, etc, and let's see if you stll want to pluck out the teeth of Tyranid cc.
I agree with the rest of you, nerfing the viable cc units for Tyranids would only make sense if Tyranids were the only faction in the game.
You really went back to my post from way back in April, when we're just about to hit June now? I've been playing games throughout the week + multiple games on the weekend since. I've played against everything you listed except for Eldar. Which is also a matter of time as my Eldar opponent been out of time, but we'll get there.
KurtAngle2 wrote: Don't bother commenting on SHUPPET views, he clearly has no knowledge of the game
I have a decade of knowledge on the game. Aren't you the guy who recommended Genestealers back 6TH, and to use them with Swarmlord? And gets upset at people who took three or more of the same unit? Lol. You've been spamming these downright terrible opinions on here years now, but when you start attacking me just because you disagree with what I say, that's when I start chuckling. And insult from someone like you is probably more of a compliment.
I have multiple armies and actively nerfing a well design CQC unit to mediocre levels is not something a game designer should aim to. It's like asking every shooting unit to be useless like a Tactical Space Marine or the equivalent Assault Space Marine in the other case. You always try to improve units to decent levels of usability, not the other way around (aka nerf them into the oblivion without a reason to do so)
Yeah there's definitely a middle ground between "so strong it pretty much invalidates every other cc unit in the dex" and "nerfed into oblivion". The measure of competence is being able to find it.
Geensteelers perform at the top level but they aren't overpowering other powerful armies so I wouldn't say they are a problem. Gaunts are much worse than other armies infantry but they are ultimately immune to morale so that makes them worth their points IMO. Warriors should probably have a 3+ save - that's about the only change I would make to Nid infantry.
A reasonable approach - but my problem is that Genestealers outclass the rest of the dex, and are unbalanced internally, and are also one of the strongest CC's units in the meta currently. What the people pointing outside of the dex at other OP things are missing, is that I would like points reductions to that too. I would like everything brought down to a sensible level, and with that, I think Genestealers are the offending unit in our dex.
I've never used Genestealers until their first "new" iteration in Genestealer Cult 7TH Codex, you can't even recognize people properly
I know you’re kinda limited to models right now, but something you can do is run your Genestealers in one blob(they’ll hit much harder with the +1 Attack), and move the Termagants to that detachment to stay legal. Give your fexes 2x Devourers or Deathspitters instead of Scything Talons to take better advantage of Enhanced Senses.
It's a strange build...I think if I ran a bunch of Warriors, I'd go Leviathan, maybe swap the Wing'rant into the Krakon? The MSU Stealers just look odd to me, why are you using them that way?
I agree with the earlier posters that you should consolidate the Genestealers into one large unit. 5 Genestealers are going to get picked off by bolter fire, and won't do all that much even if they get into CC.
Even as one big unit, they might not work that well. My experience has been that a single unit of Genestealers only works if you go first and get the charge. Most opponents know how hard they hit, and will focus fire into the unit. Once it drops below ten models they lose the extra attack, which hurts a lot, and then they tend to bounce off of things. I would advise running 2x20 if you run Genestealers at all, and having Venomthropes to support them. If you go second, you expect to lose most of one squad, but not many armies can do enough shooting to kill the Venomthropes and both 'stealer squads. At 1500 it will be easier to get away with one unit of 'stealers, but even then its iffy.
The Lictors won't do much either. Awesome models, but hard to get value out of. They are mostly fielded by people looking to fill in slots for a Brigade, and with the new CP rules Brigades are less attractive than they were. .
If you have the models, I would recommend trading the Lictors and Genestealers for Rippers and a third Carnifex. If you are set on using the Genestealers, you should swap the Lictors for 3 Venomthropes, run the 'stealers as a 15 man unit, and move the Termagants into the other Battalion to keep it legal. Dropping two of the Ripper bases for more Genestealers is a good idea as well. Genestealers are very much a unit that wants to be as big as possible.
Venomthropes are going to be very useful in this list. They want to be shot at by big guns like lascannons, which keeps fire away from the Carnifiexes and Hive Tyrant. If there is decent terrain, they can often be hidden out of line of sight first turn. Careful positioning can leave your opponent with nothing to shoot at that isn't -1 to hit. A good opponent will prioritize them, which normally results in you losing the Venomthropes but not much else on the first turn you get shot at. They are the same size as the Lictors, so if you don't have Venomthrope models you should be able to proxy Lictors for them.
I think if you are paying for the most expensive weapon and for another expensive upgrade to shooting, it's not a good idea to make the Carnifexes Kraken, because they will ideally not be advancing to make use of those points. In fact I'd recommend picking between CC or shooty with them. Genestealers get benefit from being in larger squads, so you should consolidate them down, and perhaps add a few more. Warriors are probably better off with Stranglers as well, it's cheaper and better.
Otherwise it looks pretty good to me. If you don't own anymore Genestealers, and your paint scheme is Kraken, then disregard what I said entirely haha.
KurtAngle2 wrote:
You do not even understand trolling, rotfl
Then please stop trolling this thread. It's meant to be a great place to read tactics. Thanks.
I know you’re kinda limited to models right now, but something you can do is run your Genestealers in one blob(they’ll hit much harder with the +1 Attack), and move the Termagants to that detachment to stay legal. Give your fexes 2x Devourers or Deathspitters instead of Scything Talons to take better advantage of Enhanced Senses.
I'm happy to do both of those, but does it not make the Carnifexes vulnerable to being tied up in melee?
It's a strange build...I think if I ran a bunch of Warriors, I'd go Leviathan, maybe swap the Wing'rant into the Krakon? The MSU Stealers just look odd to me, why are you using them that way?
Since I didn't have that many of them, I thought 3 small groups might survive a bit better than one big one.
I agree with the earlier posters that you should consolidate the Genestealers into one large unit. 5 Genestealers are going to get picked off by bolter fire, and won't do all that much even if they get into CC.
Even as one big unit, they might not work that well. My experience has been that a single unit of Genestealers only works if you go first and get the charge. Most opponents know how hard they hit, and will focus fire into the unit. Once it drops below ten models they lose the extra attack, which hurts a lot, and then they tend to bounce off of things. I would advise running 2x20 if you run Genestealers at all, and having Venomthropes to support them. If you go second, you expect to lose most of one squad, but not many armies can do enough shooting to kill the Venomthropes and both 'stealer squads. At 1500 it will be easier to get away with one unit of 'stealers, but even then its iffy.
The Lictors won't do much either. Awesome models, but hard to get value out of. They are mostly fielded by people looking to fill in slots for a Brigade, and with the new CP rules Brigades are less attractive than they were. .
If you have the models, I would recommend trading the Lictors and Genestealers for Rippers and a third Carnifex. If you are set on using the Genestealers, you should swap the Lictors for 3 Venomthropes, run the 'stealers as a 15 man unit, and move the Termagants into the other Battalion to keep it legal. Dropping two of the Ripper bases for more Genestealers is a good idea as well. Genestealers are very much a unit that wants to be as big as possible.
Venomthropes are going to be very useful in this list. They want to be shot at by big guns like lascannons, which keeps fire away from the Carnifiexes and Hive Tyrant. If there is decent terrain, they can often be hidden out of line of sight first turn. Careful positioning can leave your opponent with nothing to shoot at that isn't -1 to hit. A good opponent will prioritize them, which normally results in you losing the Venomthropes but not much else on the first turn you get shot at. They are the same size as the Lictors, so if you don't have Venomthrope models you should be able to proxy Lictors for them.
Unfortunately, I don't have enough models for what you're suggesting.
These are all the nid models I own:
Spoiler:
- 1 Hive Tyrant (on foot)
- 1 Tyranid Prime
- 1 Broodlord
- 1 Zoanthrope/Neurothrope
- 1 Venomthrope
- 1 Hive Guard
- 2 Lictors
- 9 Warriors
- 18 Termagants
- 8 Hormagants (could probably proxy as Termagants or vice versa)
- 16 Genestealers (including 5 Necron-hybrid things that I could probably press into service )
- 2 Lictors
- 2 Carnifexes
(My group doesn't bother with WISIWIG, so wargear can be whatever.)
My group might let me run the Hormagants as genestealers, which would get me 8 more (but still far fewer than the 40 you're recommending). Unfortunately, I can't even use the Hive Guard or Venomthrope, due to the new minimum squad size (so glad i bothered buying them in Finecrap).
I think if you are paying for the most expensive weapon and for another expensive upgrade to shooting, it's not a good idea to make the Carnifexes Kraken, because they will ideally not be advancing to make use of those points. In fact I'd recommend picking between CC or shooty with them.
If I go with Shooty Carnifexes, what Hive Fleet would you recommend instead of Kraken?
ShredderShards wrote: Genestealers get benefit from being in larger squads, so you should consolidate them down, and perhaps add a few more. Warriors are probably better off with Stranglers as well, it's cheaper and better.
Can I ask what makes the Strangler better on Warriors?
Otherwise it looks pretty good to me. If you don't own anymore Genestealers, and your paint scheme is Kraken, then disregard what I said entirely haha.
No, I just went with Kracken because it was what someone suggested earlier. Paint scheme notwithstanding, I've really got no clue which one to use for the models I own.
I just think the Venom Cannon is just a less reliable version of Hive Guard, but seeing as you aren't running Hive Guard, ignore me. I went with stranglers last time i used warriors to free up some points. This was a poor suggestion from me. as for hive fleet for shooting carnifexes, depending on what you want to do with them I'd either go Jorm, Levi, or Kronos. Any of these will benefit a carnifex who isn't running up the field. kraken still makes sense for the top fleet though
I’ve tried running Barbed Stranglers several times and they’re always disappointing. At this point I’d rather it just be another Deathspitter. Venom Cannons have always functioned like a more random Hive Guard, but Troops which is nice.
Vipoid, if you’re worried about your Fexes getting tied up in melee switch out the Enhanced Senses for Acid Maws. If you go back a page or two there was a list who ran that build successfully at the London GT(HVCs, Deathspitters, Acid Maw, Sporocyst, and a Bone Mace). If you’re wanting to run two different fleets keep the WalkTyrant and Genestealers Kraken, then run your second Battalion as Jormungadr for better protection.
Typically I am shoving haruspex into opponents with swarmlord turn 1. Something most people will not realize until it's too late is this puppy blows up like a boss. auto 3 mortals to everything in range when you roll a 6 to explode (yeah you are going to want to reroll this every time). He will pay for himself on an explosion usually and he can also do some serious damage before that if you get lucky (why this thing hits on 4's...I have no freaking clue) Anyways - T8 is marginally helpful for this guy.
I've also been running Toxicrines (which are surprisingly awesome for me) I ran 3 last game. Same as Haruspex it's a great mortal wound generator. Except he excels in CC where the haruspex is kind of middling but has higher damage potential. He also shoots pretty well. He loses a wound and goes to t7 but is much cheaper too. Personally I think the Toxicrine is the best CC unit in the game for it's cost certainly in the nid codex anyways.
Harr harr, nice trolling!
NIB, if you talk about Haruspex and Toxicrene in regards of trolling, they have their uses. And seeing them so seldom makes them sometimes very great, because noone expects them.
The damage output of a Toxicrene in close combat is nothing to laught about, especially if its in combat with multiple models. Its more like a suicide bomber, but still durable. The only problem is to get it reliable into cc range. I tested them myself a couple of times, with a bit of dice luck they can lay out a lot of hurt on expensive units and screens. The closer the enemy comes, the better for you.
I wouldn't rate any unit with the assumption my opponents will be be unknowledgeable about them. I've played a fair share of games with the Toxicrene. Against elite style cc heavy armies it's usually my first model to die, after I explain to my opponent what it does, It's not neuro science to figure out that it's best to shoot it dead. I'd go so far as to say it makes a decent DISTRACTION CARNIFEX in casual games. But to say it's the best CC unit in the codex, not to mention in the entire game - nuts, man. And Haruspex, why even bother bringing up something that might happen on a single roll of a '6'? It's too rare to have any meaningful bearing on how the unit performs as a whole, and it makes no sense. Haruspex is an overcosted 'cc specialized' monster that basically suck in cc.
Neurothrope - 70, Onslaught
Tyranid Prime w/ Boneswords, Deathspitter, AG, TS - 112
3 Warriors w/ 3x Boneswords, 2x Deathspitter, 1x Venom Cannon, 3x AG - 99
3 Warriors w/ 3x Boneswords, 2x Deathspitter, 1x Venom Cannon, 3x AG - 99
3 Warriors w/ 3x Boneswords, 2x Deathspitter, 1x Venom Cannon, 3x AG - 99
Carnifex w/ 2x Two Dev w/ Brain Leech Worms, Enhanced Senses, Spore Cysts -117
Carnifex w/ 2x Two Dev w/ Brain Leech Worms, Enhanced Senses, Spore Cysts -117
Total 789
Grand Total 1498
If you can proxy hormies as termies, drop the rippers to 3x and add 5 more termagants. Use these guys to screen.
Broodlord, GS, Swarmlord (since you said wysiwg dont matter) are your T1 charge. With Kraken use Opportunitic Advance on the Broodlord to get him up close. Move your GS up and use the Hive commander ability on them. If possible try to kill a cheap character with the GS/BL and use feeder tendrils. Also consider fight again stratagem. (may need to wait for your gunline to clear screeners before moving them in during that shooting phase). Cast Paroxysm on his most deadly unit you charge to force it to fight last. Give catalyst to GS. If you want or need to, consider metabolic Overdrive on the Swarmlord to get him up close for a turn 2 charge. G
If you find yourself needing surviablity go for Levithan, you have lots of synapse and that will give you shooting gunline a lot more survivabilty. If you think you can get a good setup and not move your guys too much, go Kronos for reroll of 1s. Use pathoenic slime on one of your dakkafex (that didn't move) to get 2 damage output and target multiwound models. Rippers DS onto objectives T2
Edit: Forgot to move the termagants to the other detachment.
I'm not a fan of genestealers, so i will leave that part to other players, but in the second detachment you should split the termagants into 2 units of 10 and then join all warriors together in a squad of 9. This gives you a nice target for double shooting stratagem and double melee stratagem, makes it easier for the prime to follow them and is a perfect candidate for catalyst.
Dynas wrote: He wont be able to get double battallions if he does that. Double fight for GS. Double shoot is really best for 30x Devilgants or Hiveguard.
Why not? He would still have 3 troops per battalion, and 9 warriors double shooting are quite dangerous.
Dynas wrote: He wont be able to get double battallions if he does that. Double fight for GS. Double shoot is really best for 30x Devilgants or Hiveguard.
Why not? He would still have 3 troops per battalion, and 9 warriors double shooting are quite dangerous.
I can confirm shooting twice with 6 Deathspitters and 3 Venom Cannons hits hard. They can take quite a bit of punishment too.
My goal is to put my 3 Trygons and two Tryanofexes on the table and have a fun list that won't get steamrollled while I work on Genestealer painting.
I also want to test the Balethorn Cannon-I'll be playing this list this weekend, then a modified version using the relic venom cannon next weekend.
Kronos is only giving me the relic and access to the strategium. I'm not sure if rolling the Kronos into the Jormungandr to make a second battalion would be better.
My goal is to put my 3 Trygons and two Tryanofexes on the table and have a fun list that won't get steamrollled while I work on Genestealer painting.
I also want to test the Balethorn Cannon-I'll be playing this list this weekend, then a modified version using the relic venom cannon next weekend.
Kronos is only giving me the relic and access to the strategium. I'm not sure if rolling the Kronos into the Jormungandr to make a second battalion would be better.
I would definitely try to form a second battalion, otherwise you’re going to be CP starved the whole game. Getting +1 damage here, and rerolling low damage rolls there is going to help a lot with your Trygons and Tyrannofexes.
My goal is to put my 3 Trygons and two Tryanofexes on the table and have a fun list that won't get steamrollled while I work on Genestealer painting.
I also want to test the Balethorn Cannon-I'll be playing this list this weekend, then a modified version using the relic venom cannon next weekend.
Kronos is only giving me the relic and access to the strategium. I'm not sure if rolling the Kronos into the Jormungandr to make a second battalion would be better.
You are missing a second weapon on a tyrant in the kraken battalion.
It's a defensive brick that does a lot of damage up close. I think it will be a better choice against some specific armies, but against a broader meta probably not. I dropped them pretty quickly after testing them.
Typically I am shoving haruspex into opponents with swarmlord turn 1. Something most people will not realize until it's too late is this puppy blows up like a boss. auto 3 mortals to everything in range when you roll a 6 to explode (yeah you are going to want to reroll this every time). He will pay for himself on an explosion usually and he can also do some serious damage before that if you get lucky (why this thing hits on 4's...I have no freaking clue) Anyways - T8 is marginally helpful for this guy.
I've also been running Toxicrines (which are surprisingly awesome for me) I ran 3 last game. Same as Haruspex it's a great mortal wound generator. Except he excels in CC where the haruspex is kind of middling but has higher damage potential. He also shoots pretty well. He loses a wound and goes to t7 but is much cheaper too. Personally I think the Toxicrine is the best CC unit in the game for it's cost certainly in the nid codex anyways.
Harr harr, nice trolling!
NIB, if you talk about Haruspex and Toxicrene in regards of trolling, they have their uses. And seeing them so seldom makes them sometimes very great, because noone expects them.
The damage output of a Toxicrene in close combat is nothing to laught about, especially if its in combat with multiple models. Its more like a suicide bomber, but still durable. The only problem is to get it reliable into cc range. I tested them myself a couple of times, with a bit of dice luck they can lay out a lot of hurt on expensive units and screens. The closer the enemy comes, the better for you.
I've been facing a lot of CC armies as of late so I've decided to fight fire with fire. My opinion - Nid CC is top notch.
SHUPPET wrote: I feel like Genestealers are a little too strong. Everytime I try to play around with a melee list I always just end up on "why aren't I just putting these points into Genestealers"
My opinions might be a bit clouded from my experiences with GSC, but I don't think it is so much that Genestealers are too strong and more that the current demands of the meta are very favorable for them. Most of the high tier lists are oriented around spamming multi-damage weaponry (Plasma, Disintegrators, etc.) on chassis that pay as little as possible for defensive stats. Genestealers don't care about AP or multi-damage since they have an invulnerable save and a single wound, plus they are very good at mulching low toughness models in return.
The other tricky consideration is that Genestealers are arguably one of the few dedicated Tyranid "melee infantry" units as most of the other options have some form of shooting attack innately or available as an upgrade. Hormagaunts admittedly are fairly similar at first glance, but they fulfill a very different purpose of disruption and board control rather than damage dealing so it isn't entirely fair to compare the two. Tyrant Guard are the only other one I can think of that has no shooting attack at all, but they aren't really intended as a front-line assault unit so much as a bodyguard squad (though Hydra likes them with Crushing Claws for tank cracking - Swarming Instincts cares naught for how much more the target is outnumbered, only that it is!).
Anyway, does anyone have a gameplan for dealing with all-Knight armies? I doubt they will win many events, but at the local level I am dreading seeing them. I know at least two people who have Imperial Knight armies and another in the process of starting one with the new codex. My big fear is that they completely invalidate monstrous creatures with their new weaponry options, and unlike GSC Tyranids don't really have many infantry-based options for armor cracking (basically just the aforementioned Tyrant Guard and Hive Guard).
SHUPPET wrote: I feel like Genestealers are a little too strong. Everytime I try to play around with a melee list I always just end up on "why aren't I just putting these points into Genestealers"
My opinions might be a bit clouded from my experiences with GSC, but I don't think it is so much that Genestealers are too strong and more that the current demands of the meta are very favorable for them. Most of the high tier lists are oriented around spamming multi-damage weaponry (Plasma, Disintegrators, etc.) on chassis that pay as little as possible for defensive stats. Genestealers don't care about AP or multi-damage since they have an invulnerable save and a single wound, plus they are very good at mulching low toughness models in return.
The other tricky consideration is that Genestealers are arguably one of the few dedicated Tyranid "melee infantry" units as most of the other options have some form of shooting attack innately or available as an upgrade. Hormagaunts admittedly are fairly similar at first glance, but they fulfill a very different purpose of disruption and board control rather than damage dealing so it isn't entirely fair to compare the two. Tyrant Guard are the only other one I can think of that has no shooting attack at all, but they aren't really intended as a front-line assault unit so much as a bodyguard squad (though Hydra likes them with Crushing Claws for tank cracking - Swarming Instincts cares naught for how much more the target is outnumbered, only that it is!).
Anyway, does anyone have a gameplan for dealing with all-Knight armies? I doubt they will win many events, but at the local level I am dreading seeing them. I know at least two people who have Imperial Knight armies and another in the process of starting one with the new codex. My big fear is that they completely invalidate monstrous creatures with their new weaponry options, and unlike GSC Tyranids don't really have many infantry-based options for armor cracking (basically just the aforementioned Tyrant Guard and Hive Guard).
I get what you're saying, but I think even in a polar opposite meta, Stealers would still be the only CC unit that we really use, they are just better than every other option we have. As far as dedicated CC comparisons - What about something like the Dima? Or the lictor? Those guys really have narrow roles, and aren't outright terrible units... But as it stands, They just seem sort of pointless, fluffy additions gameplay wise in a dex that can take as many Stealers as you have points. I don't think the Hormagaunt conparison is a bad one either. They are really similar in role I think we have to stretch a little to say they wouldn't be.
In the broader game, I don't think Genestealers are too strong. They aren't dominating a meta or anything. If everything busted was toned down a little tho, they might be.
I get what you're saying, but I think even in a polar opposite meta, Stealers would still be the only CC unit that we really use, they are just better than every other option we have.
I'm not sure. Genestealers do not like mass low quality shots since their defensive tricks are mostly designed to mitigate the efficiency of the opposite and each lost wound leads to a major reduction in efficiency compared to Warriors/Raveners/Shrikes who loose attacks at a much slower rate thanks to their multi-wounds. To compare a unit of 10 Genestealers vs 5 Raveners with Rending Claws (roughly equal points and similar mobility/defensive profiles), Genestealers start with twice the number of attacks as the Raveners but loose half of their efficiency after 3 wounds (40 to 21 attacks) while Raveners only loose 1/5th (20 to 16 attacks).
As far as dedicated CC comparisons - What about something like the Dima? Or the lictor? Those guys really have narrow roles, and aren't outright terrible units... But as it stands, They just seem sort of pointless, fluffy additions gameplay wise in a dex that can take as many Stealers as you have points.
I think the Dimacharion mainly suffers from not transitioning to the new edition very well. It got faster but kept its cost and toughness when everything else got either tougher or cheaper (or both) and it lost a lot of the flexibility granted by its old weapon rules coupled with the new wound table making the strength difference mostly irrelevant. It also has a few rules that don't really work (new leap rule for instance only allows it to bypass terrain - can't move over friendly or enemy models) which hinders it greatly. In contrast, Trygons have similar stats overall but are cheaper and bring both a gun and utility functions. Toxicrines received a major buff to WS going into the codex and bring more attacks, shooting, T7, and mortal wound generation for roughly 25% cheaper than the Dimacharion. Then lastly, the Haruspex brings the old blender abilities that the old Dimacharion had with its new maw weapon along with T8, two more wounds, self healing ability, and the option for S14 against heavy vehicles at 2 points less.
Lictors themselves aren't really a close combat specialist so much as a utility unit that happens to make melee attacks. The main issue it has currently is that most of its tricks have been smacked with the nerf bat more than any innate failings. Their S6 makes them very good at picking off T3 characters, but getting there is an issue with the new restrictions on deep strike and the fact that they aren't characters despite being single-model units.
I don't think the Hormagaunt conparison is a bad one either. They are really similar in role I think we have to stretch a little to say they wouldn't be.
I suppose it is a matter of perspective. I view Genestealers as a damage dealing "hammer" unit while Hormagaunts are more an "anvil" that serves to disrupt and deny with their enhanced pile-in and vast unit size.
In the broader game, I don't think Genestealers are too strong. They aren't dominating a meta or anything.
It is perhaps worth noting as well that Purestrain Genestealers are superior to Hive Fleet Genestealers in almost every way save for cost and battlefield role, but even still the extra points they pay per model is ends up cheaper than most of the delivery options available to Hive Fleet 'stealers and Purestrains have access to strength buffs that allow them to tackle tougher targets than their Hive Fleet counterparts. Within the GSC army itself however they provide a specialized role as anti-infantry melee unit while the other units focus more on armor cracking.
I get what you're saying, but I think even in a polar opposite meta, Stealers would still be the only CC unit that we really use, they are just better than every other option we have.
I'm not sure. Genestealers do not like mass low quality shots since their defensive tricks are mostly designed to mitigate the efficiency of the opposite and each lost wound leads to a major reduction in efficiency compared to Warriors/Raveners/Shrikes who loose attacks at a much slower rate thanks to their multi-wounds. To compare a unit of 10 Genestealers vs 5 Raveners with Rending Claws (roughly equal points and similar mobility/defensive profiles), Genestealers start with twice the number of attacks as the Raveners but loose half of their efficiency after 3 wounds (40 to 21 attacks) while Raveners only loose 1/5th (20 to 16 attacks).
\ You make a good point, and you might be right here.
I think the Dimacharion mainly suffers from not transitioning to the new edition very well. It got faster but kept its cost and toughness when everything else got either tougher or cheaper (or both) and it lost a lot of the flexibility granted by its old weapon rules coupled with the new wound table making the strength difference mostly irrelevant. It also has a few rules that don't really work (new leap rule for instance only allows it to bypass terrain - can't move over friendly or enemy models) which hinders it greatly. In contrast, Trygons have similar stats overall but are cheaper and bring both a gun and utility functions. Toxicrines received a major buff to WS going into the codex and bring more attacks, shooting, T7, and mortal wound generation for roughly 25% cheaper than the Dimacharion. Then lastly, the Haruspex brings the old blender abilities that the old Dimacharion had with its new maw weapon along with T8, two more wounds, self healing ability, and the option for S14 against heavy vehicles at 2 points less.
So are you saying you think none of these units would see play if Genestealers didn't exist? Trygon I can see having zero use ever (for the third edition in a row cmon GW), the other ones are kinda iffy tho, and I definitely think Dima at least is playable.
I play Genestealers ALL the time. But I play them as GSC. Cult ambush with a Primus and stratagem is godly! Throw a magus in there and you have S5 5 attacks hitting on 2's.
So are you saying you think none of these units would see play if Genestealers didn't exist?
I didn't mean to imply such. The commentary was mostly my laments regarding the current Dimachaeron rules compared to the other melee-centric monsters in the codex itself. He is fast and has access to an invulnerable, but he is just so fragile relative to the others and more expensive than any of them (even the much maligned Haruspex is 2 points cheaper).
As far as Genestealers vs the various monsters is concerned, I think it really comes down to what they are opposing. Genestealers love mulching infantry targets since they have a plethora of attacks, but they struggle against higher toughness targets with lots of wounds and good saves that can fight back. A prime example of such a problematic unit would be Custodes Jetbikes, as even a minimum sized unit has enough bolter shots to kill most of a 'stealer brood before the charge and their high toughness combined with multiple wounds and good saves makes them difficult for 'stealers to kill fast enough to avoid depletion. Most of the monsters in contrast can generally shrug off the offense of the bikes (need 5's to wound most of them) and their strength plus multiple damage makes it relatively easier to put damage on the bikers even if only one wound goes through saves (ignoring secondary damage sources like Acid Blood or Hypertoxic Miasma).
Trygon I can see having zero use ever (for the third edition in a row cmon GW), the other ones are kinda iffy tho, and I definitely think Dima at least is playable.
I haven't used my Trygon enough to really form a solid opinion on them, but they are nice as a drop-pod for troops with the added benefit of being able to contribute once their cargo has been delivered. They do hit fairly hard, but are fragile.
I'm personally a fan of the Toxicrenes after having run a pair of them for the last few games I've had with my 'nids. They are fairly cheap and have reliable hitting power (WS: 3+ in the codex combined with innate reroll all failed to wound rolls on all of their weaponry) plus several utility tricks that make them play differently than most monsters. They have always swings first from their whips so they are good for disrupting order of activation in the assault phase, can shoot with said whips into combat even if they are not part of said combat, and have multiple methods of generating mortal wounds (albeit somewhat unreliably). They also can recoup command points via Feeder Tendrils as well.
Haruspex is in a bit of an odd place. I honestly think it has the potential to be good, but it doesn't play well with the current meta and is still a bit on the expensive side. It really wants to munch on multi-wound infantry and heavy vehicles (neither of which are especially common) while being a major Las-cannon magnet compared to most of the other creatures due to its T8. If the other T8 bugs were a bit cheaper to allow for good saturation it would probably have a place, but right now it is hard to get enough T8 on the table to avoid it being the first target. Might work better in a gene-soup list with a pack of Leman Russ tanks backing it up, but that will probably have to wait until the GSC codex to be efficient (even more so if GSC get a trait that messes with leadership to stack with the Haruspex's stratagem).
Trygons are borderline good. They are one of our most cost effective forms of AT, and provide DS to termagant bombs. I've used 1-2 consistently since the start of 8th. They are certainly not as good as GS/Flyrants/HG, but they are definitely one of our better choices. The biggest issue is just delivering them because they hit so hard no one will ever let them cross the board, and DS means you rely on 8/9" charges.
I've found that screens aren't typically an issue for Nids (Relevant to Trygons as screens do reduce their ability to do their job) as a whole, because DS screens can be used against the opponent, and DZ wrapping screens basically hand us objective games on a platter by forcing the opponent to sit in their DZ while we can put 100+ bodies across the board and pick up mondo points in most ITC format misisons. Screening out a Trygon generally ends up helping us overall, in my experience.
Basically if they were tougher or more reliable engage capabilities, they would be a top tier choice. They have a niche, but it's a very specific one and we have other tools that can achieve comparable results at less risk .Hive Guard, for example, will do less damage per point vs tanks, but can double shoot, have range and ignore LOS. They're not better at killing tanks because they statistically do it better, they're better cause they don't die and can reliably do their damage. If you want a termagant bomb, a Jorm battalion may be a better option anyways.
stalkerzero wrote: I like to think most times I can look at a unit and understand why it is popular but the one that I really do not get is Ripper Swarms.
I don't understand the use of them and the points cost is fairly similar to just 10 plain Termagants. [/quote
Rippers are excellent for progressive objective scoring where they can DS onto objectives or into table quarters. They are also especially popular in ITC Champions missions, where having 10 model units (gants/gaunts) is discouraged. They also dont get shot to pieces turn 1.
I’ve got 2 Tyrannofexes, 9 Hive Guard, and various Carnifexes laying around. Should I bother adding an Exocrine to my big gun collection, or save up for a Barbed Hierodule first?
Well, from a purely game-winning perspective the equivalent points in exocrines will always be more effective than barbed hierodules. Bio-Titans are way cooler though, despite being a huge pain to take anywhere.
Barbed Heirodules are way overcosted atm. I even sent in to the FW guys and asked them about it and they could only respond in embarrassment that the GW guys had the final say.
They are very comparable stat-wise with 2 lemun russ battle tanks (better at melee, but less wounds and easier to shoot at). They however cost much more than 2 lemun russ tanks when they should total out a bit less.
Hello hive mind! Managed to place 9th overall and 10th in battlepoints 4-1 at a 60 player Itc major in Sudbury Ontario using the list below. Played against 2 dark eldar lists, full custodes wth bunch of bikes, dark angles full of characters and plasma, and blood angels.
Been trying hard to make the rupture fexes work. They've been my mvp's for the last few tourneys. Placed 4th at a 28 player rtt couple monthes back. but thinking of removing them and going hard with 2 units of hive guard. What does the hive mind think?
Bringing this list to Beef and wing itc major in buffalo this upcoming weekend. My one loss was too a dark eldar venom spam list who ended up taking 2nd place. Survived to round 6 using chess clocks with 2 units of rippers left.
That was the only game that we used chess clocks my round 5 player agreed we would be fine without it. 4 out of 5 rounds finished on turn 6 with time to spare ! I've been practising hard with chess clocks to speed up my own game play and it's been working out great! Highly recommend it to everyone who wants to speed up, I've gotten my turn 1 to about 15min or less
Well done! It's good to see that there are multiple competitive lists out there. Love the Rupture Fex but as long as Alaitoc is out there I can't quite bring him. Could you give us a little more breakdown on that Custodes game? That's a matchup I've been fearing, but I haven't found anyone with enough bikes yet!
Vetsgt-Jeff wrote: Hello hive mind! Managed to place 9th overall and 10th in battlepoints 4-1 at a 60 player Itc major in Sudbury Ontario using the list below. Played against 2 dark eldar lists, full custodes wth bunch of bikes, dark angles full of characters and plasma, and blood angels.
Been trying hard to make the rupture fexes work. They've been my mvp's for the last few tourneys. Placed 4th at a 28 player rtt couple monthes back. but thinking of removing them and going hard with 2 units of hive guard. What does the hive mind think?
Bringing this list to Beef and wing itc major in buffalo this upcoming weekend. My one loss was too a dark eldar venom spam list who ended up taking 2nd place. Survived to round 6 using chess clocks with 2 units of rippers left.
That was the only game that we used chess clocks my round 5 player agreed we would be fine without it. 4 out of 5 rounds finished on turn 6 with time to spare ! I've been practising hard with chess clocks to speed up my own game play and it's been working out great! Highly recommend it to everyone who wants to speed up, I've gotten my turn 1 to about 15min or less
Nice! On one hand x6 Hive Guard are so useful it is sinful not to take them. But if your Tyrannofexen are MVPs, why bench them? I suppose you can split the differance, and drop one Tyranno, and spend the points. I don't think you'll harm your chances as Hive Guard are crazy good. Good luck! And good hunting!
SHUPPET wrote: I feel like Genestealers are a little too strong. Everytime I try to play around with a melee list I always just end up on "why aren't I just putting these points into Genestealers"
Anyway, does anyone have a gameplan for dealing with all-Knight armies? I doubt they will win many events, but at the local level I am dreading seeing them. I know at least two people who have Imperial Knight armies and another in the process of starting one with the new codex. My big fear is that they completely invalidate monstrous creatures with their new weaponry options, and unlike GSC Tyranids don't really have many infantry-based options for armor cracking (basically just the aforementioned Tyrant Guard and Hive Guard).
If you know you are facing them take Hive Guard, lots of antitank, and lock them uncombat with cheap units like Hormies with toxin sacs and RIPPERS. THey cannot fall back from rippers, so if you get 3 rippers to surround the base they are stuck. Sure they will stomp you next turn, but you are sacrificing 33 points for a round of shooting.
MOrtal wound spam from biovores, sporcist could work/help as well. Smites. Malantrhopes for -1 shrouds.
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stalkerzero wrote: I like to think most times I can look at a unit and understand why it is popular but the one that I really do not get is Ripper Swarms.
I don't understand the use of them and the points cost is fairly similar to just 10 plain Termagants.
Deepstrike objective grabbers. Its our cheapest troop, and they are low profile so you can hide them in Area terrain or behind LoS a lot easier to get improved cover saves.
Also, they are swarms, not Infantry, so you can cheese hard in APOC games where you lock titans into combat and prevent them from shooting since you cant fall back.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vetsgt-Jeff wrote: Hello hive mind! Managed to place 9th overall and 10th in battlepoints 4-1 at a 60 player Itc major in Sudbury Ontario using the list below. Played against 2 dark eldar lists, full custodes wth bunch of bikes, dark angles full of characters and plasma, and blood angels.
Been trying hard to make the rupture fexes work. They've been my mvp's for the last few tourneys. Placed 4th at a 28 player rtt couple monthes back. but thinking of removing them and going hard with 2 units of hive guard. What does the hive mind think?
Bringing this list to Beef and wing itc major in buffalo this upcoming weekend. My one loss was too a dark eldar venom spam list who ended up taking 2nd place. Survived to round 6 using chess clocks with 2 units of rippers left.
That was the only game that we used chess clocks my round 5 player agreed we would be fine without it. 4 out of 5 rounds finished on turn 6 with time to spare ! I've been practising hard with chess clocks to speed up my own game play and it's been working out great! Highly recommend it to everyone who wants to speed up, I've gotten my turn 1 to about 15min or less
I am taken a VERY similar list to Dallas Open. I have 6 HG, 29 hormies, no T-Fex, but a dakkafex, taking Swarmlord as well.
Was it this the guy with the Venom cheese? I would play missions. Take Recon/Line Breaker/Old school. you could probably max out secondaries with this (maybe not get the warlord), but very close.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaKczn6u--A
jifel wrote: Could you give us a little more breakdown on that Custodes game? That's a matchup I've been fearing, but I haven't found anyone with enough bikes yet!
His list was something like
2 shield captains on bikes
1 captain dude on foot as warlord
3 units of custodian guard with storm shields
And 2 units of 5 bikes
Vanguard strike I chose deployment zone and was able to hide a full unit of stealers, venoms and HG in a square ruin. He won first turn came forward with bikes. I premauared his bikes and made sure to stay outta rapid fire range draw some fire away. He failed to kill my unit of stealers and hormagants leaving 1 Gs and 5 or so hormies which ran for rest of game scoring me recon in far back corner and denying reaper points. My T1 I focused on removing one unit at a time and was able to remove a bike unit T1 and t2, each rupture fex removed a bike after his saves along with HG, charged in with stealers and was able to remove the last 3 in combat thanks to -4 rending and -3 acid maws, t2 my shooting was much more effective removing the second unit. then once I removed the two shield captains with flyrants and stealers he was stuck in his deployment with no mobility and I was able to almost table him end of turn 6 with only his warlord left with 1 wound after an unreal charge roll from my flyrant.
Game ended 30-15 for the nids
Pinecone-> I've been tempted to run more HG and are currently trying to slowly get enough models to test some list ideas out. For now i will keep the rupture fexes to the next couple GT's and see how well they perform. If I were to remove one I'd remove both of them, I think if your going to spend the points your better doubling your chances because hitting on 4's can be garbage sometimes ha
Dynas -> Yes that was the venom spam list that I just couldn't break, i had to overstretch to score recon T1 but I couldn't get recon For rest of game and I didn't even manage a kill in first turn with him rolling so hot for FNP which continued on for the entire game. He vected my double advance which would have gotten into his venoms T1. I'd hit his -2 fliers from the stratagem or venoms with a couple 6's on my fexes and he'd roll 2 6's right back at me was insane lol I fought it out as best as I could but he just kept gaining on me scoring almost full points every
Turn. game ended 32- 14
Nice write up. Yeah that FnP sucks. Its only a 6 up though right? I think Hive Guard would have been nice here. 6 could pop a venom a turn and then use your other guys to clean up. Also the Balethron Cannon Relic would wreak havoc on Drukhari. Honestly though, I watched his video, he seems to have his list down tight. It is fast, and I have yet to play against the new Drukhari dex, so I am not sure. I have done a bit of research on it as there are 9 Drukhari players at the next GT. They seem to be a glass cannon approach. I know the Dark Lances are nasty for MC so I am taking a more horde style list.
Dynas wrote: Nice write up. Yeah that FnP sucks. Its only a 6 up though right? I think Hive Guard would have been nice here. 6 could pop a venom a turn and then use your other guys to clean up. Also the Balethron Cannon Relic would wreak havoc on Drukhari. Honestly though, I watched his video, he seems to have his list down tight. It is fast, and I have yet to play against the new Drukhari dex, so I am not sure. I have done a bit of research on it as there are 9 Drukhari players at the next GT. They seem to be a glass cannon approach. I know the Dark Lances are nasty for MC so I am taking a more horde style list.
The new Drukhari codex is disgusting for us lol I've fortunate to have many friends to practise against including the winning list of the GT and it's a very tough game. I'm very tricky when it comes to using strats and vect can be a real pain from shutting down double advance to denying hiveguard double shooting and over tricky stuff like overrun and trying to redeploy after combat to save the stealers from next round. Then the -1 really screws up our shooting especially when they make an important target -2 to hit like a flier right up in your deployment T1 to get line of sight on my venomthropes which that dark eldar player did which was smart before shooting his bucket of dice at me from all the venoms. And yes it's only a 6+++ but they always seem to make that roll when their baked up in a corner. If they go second they cAn redeploy like crazy and steal objectives like it's nothing. Also the venoms can be positioned like donkey-caves hiding on top of ruins and terrain and completely deny a charge ( another thing that drukjari player did )
Also before I forget if they have reivers I've come up with the strategy of wrapping my gunline with my termagants so they literally can't get within an inch and shut down my shooting
Would you think it might be worth going 2nd so you can counter play his maneuverability to get those objectives. Maybe try and bait out the Vect stratagem with something, like bait out the advance one, but then use swarmy on the shooting phase, still get in range and you can still use shoot 2x. Anything you would have done differently? List changes? Tactics?
Going 2nd against Dark Eldar can be really bad. They typically have 2 or 3 flyers that can reach anything hiding behind a building or hill (unless it's completely obscured inside a building) and they have so much fast firepower that anything not hiding will be severely hurt. Hive Guard are usually pretty high on their kill list.
If you know you are facing them take Hive Guard, lots of antitank, and lock them uncombat with cheap units like Hormies with toxin sacs and RIPPERS. THey cannot fall back from rippers, so if you get 3 rippers to surround the base they are stuck. Sure they will stomp you next turn, but you are sacrificing 33 points for a round of shooting.
For a moment I totally forgot Rippers were SWARM not INFANTRY. So dumb lol
Is there anything keeping us from taking the various fortifications? I'm considering putting an impaler Hive Guard unit in an Imperial Bunker.
100 points to give 5 Hive Guard 12 extra T8 wounds isn't a bad deal, and it would let me put them in the very front of the deployment zone to get the most value out of the 36" range.
babelfish wrote: Is there anything keeping us from taking the various fortifications? I'm considering putting an impaler Hive Guard unit in an Imperial Bunker.
100 points to give 5 Hive Guard 12 extra T8 wounds isn't a bad deal, and it would let me put them in the very front of the deployment zone to get the most value out of the 36" range.
<edit> wounds has a w in it
The imperial fortifications are faction:unaligned. So you can take and use them as you like.
I used a Voidshield Generator with my Carnifex spam list, and it upsets my opponent every time i do.
The Skyshield Landing Platform was usefull as long the flying hive tyrants had not inbuild 4++ and harpy/crone were not flyers.
6 hiveguard inside a Plasma Obliterator is expensive, but it’s not gonna die. Stick 3 more hiveguard out of LOS behind it too!
Can you use stratagems on units inside vehicles? I dunno if they’re considered on the table for the purposes of them. That might make it a little less palatable if you were planning on double shooting.
If you know you are facing them take Hive Guard, lots of antitank, and lock them uncombat with cheap units like Hormies with toxin sacs and RIPPERS. THey cannot fall back from rippers, so if you get 3 rippers to surround the base they are stuck. Sure they will stomp you next turn, but you are sacrificing 33 points for a round of shooting.
For a moment I totally forgot Rippers were SWARM not INFANTRY. So dumb lol
But use it.
Knights can fall back and walk over infantry and swarms.
If you know you are facing them take Hive Guard, lots of antitank, and lock them uncombat with cheap units like Hormies with toxin sacs and RIPPERS. THey cannot fall back from rippers, so if you get 3 rippers to surround the base they are stuck. Sure they will stomp you next turn, but you are sacrificing 33 points for a round of shooting.
For a moment I totally forgot Rippers were SWARM not INFANTRY. So dumb lol
But use it.
Knights can fall back and walk over infantry and swarms.
Badablack wrote: 6 hiveguard inside a Plasma Obliterator is expensive, but it’s not gonna die. Stick 3 more hiveguard out of LOS behind it too!
Can you use stratagems on units inside vehicles? I dunno if they’re considered on the table for the purposes of them. That might make it a little less palatable if you were planning on double shooting.
Dynas -> Yes that was the venom spam list that I just couldn't break, i had to overstretch to score recon T1 but I couldn't get recon For rest of game and I didn't even manage a kill in first turn with him rolling so hot for FNP which continued on for the entire game. He vected my double advance which would have gotten into his venoms T1. I'd hit his -2 fliers from the stratagem or venoms with a couple 6's on my fexes and he'd roll 2 6's right back at me was insane lol I fought it out as best as I could but he just kept gaining on me scoring almost full points every
Turn. game ended 32- 14
I'm far from an expert with nids, but I can tell you some of the things that concern me when I'm playing DE against them:
- Hive Guard. I can't out-range them and often can't even see them, whilst their shots just shred my vehicles.
- Biovores. My vehicles rely on invulnerable saves for protection, which Biovores ignore outright. Against vehicles or flying infantry, you probably want them to hit rather than miss (since otherwise they can just hop right over any spore mines).
- Psychic powers. Aside from a single artefact, DE have no counter to psykers.
- Massed T3. Our weapons suck against T3 targets. Simple as that.
- Monstrous Devourers/Deathspitters. These things shred DE vehicles and infantry alike.
I don't play multiple hive fleets in one army, so I only got one color scheme.
But I already learned from the experience that my previously purely fluff Iron Warrios now have bad rules, so I am avoiding any GW paint schemes.
SHUPPET wrote: Do you guys paint your Hive Fleets differently? Ala the rules for the new 1750 GT? Or just in general?
I have my own non-GW paint scheme. For casual games I just make sure that it is clear which units are in which Hive Fleet. For tournaments, I paint the rims of the bases different for each Hive Fleet.
Inspired by the success of the London GT list, I broke my Carnifexes out yesterday. I played a 2k game against a Blood Angels/IG list that was ran by one of our better local players. We did an ITC mission (5 objectives, in a cross shape, with one in the middle, one in the center of each deployment zone, and one on each flank on the midline. Dawn of War deployment. Terrain was solid, with plenty of ruins on the table.
His list was standard BA: Death Company + Sanguinary Guard with Scouts and characters, supported by deep striking melta and plasma IG and some infantry squads with mortars.
I ran 3 Neurothropes, 2x3 Rippers, 11 Termagants, 2 Exocrines, 5 Impaler Hive Guard, 6 Shock Cannon Hive Guard, 3 Raveners, an Acid T-fex, and 2x2 Carnifexes with double devourer, enhanced senses, and spore cysts. I had the T and C Fexes, Raveners, and shock Guard in a Jorgmundr Spearhead with the rest being a Kronos Battalion. My warlord was the Jorgmundr Neurothrope. with the ignores cover warlord trait. I stuck the Norn Crown on one of my Kronos Neurothropes.
He deployed his mortar squads and Death Company behind walls and his scouts on midfield objectives and out of line of sight. I lined my big bugs up symmetrically, with Imp. Hive Guard in the middle, a C-Fex unit and Exocrine on each side, the T-fex on one side and the Shock Guard on the other, and the 'gaunts +1 Ripper unit screening, with the other in reserve. The Raveners also started on the table, on my left flank, looking to munch a Scout squad. I finished deploying first, won the roll off, he failed to seize, and off we went.
He was well enough hidden that only the Impaler Guard had viable shooting, so I shuffled my units to make his drop charges more difficult, and moved my Raveners forward. I also brought in my remaining Ripper squad on my far right, to further limit deep strike options. My 'gaunts and center Ripper squad moved forward to claim the center and left side objectives. Double shooting the Hive Guard and decent charge roll netted me the 3 Scout squads. I pushed a Neurothrope foward to claim the right flank objective and keep deep strikers away from that side of the table.
He responded by hopping the Death Company into my left flank backfield, behind a ruin. He also advanced a squad to challenge the middle objective. He then charged and murdering my shock Guard as well as tagging some Carnifexes, an Exocrine, and a Neuro. Stupid 3d6 charge range. He dropped a small IG squad (Scions, I think, but I forget) to shoot at the Raveners, and moved forward with a mortar squad as well, but their shooting managed to do all of 2 wounds. They finished off the wounded Ravener on the charge at the cost of half the Scions.
He had surrounded a Carnifex and killed the other one, so I couldn't fall back, but I was able to Smite, Shriek, and punch the Death Company to, well, death. He had moved a character forward to claim the right flank objective, killing the Neurothrope, so I deleted him with the Acid Spray (so good). The Raveners and guardsmen traded a few wounds. I got the charge with the Termagants and Rippers into the center objective guard squad, but the Termagants were spread out in a long line to claim the left flank objective, so not much happened in that combat for either of us.
His turn the Sanguinary Guard, the plasma, and the melta, as well as some officers for the IG came down. He also brought a character (I forget which one was on which side) in to help the Scions with the Raveners. The Sanguinary Guard and plasma were on the same left flank as the Death Company had been. The melta landed on the right flank midfield objective. A squad of Scions came in on my far right. They plinked at my Rippers, got the charge, and both those units spent the rest of the game doing anything.
The two melta squads killed the Tyranofex. The plasma squads ticked some damage onto the left flank Exocrine, and put some wounds on one of my Neuros. I made the mistake of spending my last command point to keep that Neurothrope alive. If I had let him die, the Sanguinary Guard would not have been in range to charge anything that turn. That mistake cost me said Neurothrope, the remaining left flank Carnifex, and shooting from my Impaler Hive Guard and Exocrine. He also killed the Raveners, but they had done enough damage that I wasn't bothered by it.
I fell back out of the big fight with the Sanguinary Guard my turn 3. Smite and Shriek killed some Sanguinary Guard, then one Carnifex killed 1.5 units of melta. The other Carnifex killed .5 units of melta and a few more Sanguinary Guard. If I had saved the command point I could have bumped up the damage on the devouers and gotten more of them. The other Exocrine had planned on shooting Sanguinary Guard, but he removed casualties from the smite in such a way that I didn't have a shot, so it went into the squads that had been fighting the Raveners.
This opened up a rules question: when you shoot twice with the Exocrine, if the first volley kills enough models that the target unit is no longer in range, do you get to shoot the second volley? Neither of us knew for certain, so we rolled it off to keep the game moving.
His turn 3 he killed the wounded Exocrine, moved what was left of the Sanguinary Guard into my center terrain, and did some damage to the Impaler Hive Guard. He also brought the guy who killed the Raveners in to fight the Termagants, killing most of the squad but leaving me still on the objective.
My turn 4 I killed the Sanguinary Guard with Carnifex shooting. Then my boss called to ask if I could come in that night, so we ended the game there, as a draw. When the game ended he had a handful of characters, his mortar units, and his plasma guardsmen left. I had a Neurothrope, two Carnifexes, an Exocrine, most of a unit of Impaler Hive Guard, and some Rippers. He was up one point, with a score of 14-15. I feel like I had a solid advantage but that he still had counter play.
My opponent was very good at using terrain and the charge rules to get maximum value out of his power units. He was able to keep me from shooting at his important units for most of the game, which was frustrating. I don't have a lot of games vs Blood Angels and I didn't screen as well as I should have. I think I could have positioned my units much more efficiently, trading single units in order to stop him from using double fight and consolidation to tag my guns. Other than that, I was happy with how things played out. I really liked how the Carnifexes worked when they finally got to shoot. The threat saturation aspect of the list worked well. He defiantly had difficulty picking the best target. When he killed the Tyrannofex he was in a no win situation-he had four different targets, all of which he needed to kill, and not enough guns to do it with.
I also need to spend more time thinking about use of my spells. I failed to use Horror properly, and I think I could have used Onslaught to get a Carnifex shooting into his Death Company first turn IF I had thought of it and deployed in order to enable it.
I'll be taking this build to local events for the next month, and will put up more battle reports as I get in games.
This opened up a rules question: when you shoot twice with the Exocrine, if the first volley kills enough models that the target unit is no longer in range, do you get to shoot the second volley? Neither of us knew for certain, so we rolled it off to keep the game moving.
At our shop it has generally been played as each being a completely separate shooting attack resolved one after the other, so we go through the entire sequence for each volley. The primary justification has been that other instances where an action is done twice has each action resolved separately (Khorne Berserkers with their fight twice for example). Weapon Beast also does not require both attacks be made against the same target (unlike the Russ or Fire Prism equivalent rules), so if one target is out of range it can just select a different target during the declare targets step if it had not already declared them as the target for the second volly.
Very nice battle report as well. Nice to see a different archetype than the Kraken rush lists.
SHUPPET wrote: Do you guys paint your Hive Fleets differently? Ala the rules for the new 1750 GT? Or just in general?
All of mine are painted in a personal color scheme that originated in the Dawn of War II army painter. For the most part I haven't really mixed Adaptations as it makes keeping track of synapse coverage annoying and most are self-sufficient enough, though of the adaptations Kronos has been the easiest to justify as a small auxiliary due to their stratagem and exclusive focus on shooting. In such cases the units benefiting from Kronos are generally gunbeasts so it isn't too hard to keep them separate from whatever other fleet is being used.
Dynas -> Yes that was the venom spam list that I just couldn't break, i had to overstretch to score recon T1 but I couldn't get recon For rest of game and I didn't even manage a kill in first turn with him rolling so hot for FNP which continued on for the entire game. He vected my double advance which would have gotten into his venoms T1. I'd hit his -2 fliers from the stratagem or venoms with a couple 6's on my fexes and he'd roll 2 6's right back at me was insane lol I fought it out as best as I could but he just kept gaining on me scoring almost full points every
Turn. game ended 32- 14
I'm far from an expert with nids, but I can tell you some of the things that concern me when I'm playing DE against them:
- Hive Guard. I can't out-range them and often can't even see them, whilst their shots just shred my vehicles.
- Biovores. My vehicles rely on invulnerable saves for protection, which Biovores ignore outright. Against vehicles or flying infantry, you probably want them to hit rather than miss (since otherwise they can just hop right over any spore mines).
- Psychic powers. Aside from a single artefact, DE have no counter to psykers.
- Massed T3. Our weapons suck against T3 targets. Simple as that.
- Monstrous Devourers/Deathspitters. These things shred DE vehicles and infantry alike.
Hope this might be of some help.
Awesome thanks. I have all this except the Biovores in my list. 50 pts for a mortal wound, give me a break. I do have a swarm of T3 Hormies and Termies though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: Do you guys paint your Hive Fleets differently? Ala the rules for the new 1750 GT? Or just in general?
No. But i do have little tokens I use on the units to designate which unit belongs to which hive fleet.
Normally I only do 2 fleets, say kraken/kronos, kraken gets red, kronos gets white.
Recently I have been using Swarmlord to catapult 30 hormagaunts across the board with Hive commander and onslaught.
You ensure that your Swarmlord is outside of 24 inches so that he can cast onslaught unopposed and then you get into position to charge one unit and spread your unit out so that the consolidate move pushes you within an inch of a couple other heavy hitting units.
I had an opponent ask how do I counter this if you go first. My response was deploy as far back as possible with your valuable units and deploy at least 2 scout units to block movement. If you go first shoot out at least 15 of the homagaunts sand then its just not worth it because so many will die in the charge and fight phase. Was this good advice?
Ive been crushing it lately with this tactic but everyone on the forums seems to use Hive commander on Genestealers.
Resipsa131 wrote: Recently I have been using Swarmlord to catapult 30 hormagaunts across the board with Hive commander and onslaught.
You ensure that your Swarmlord is outside of 24 inches so that he can cast onslaught unopposed and then you get into position to charge one unit and spread your unit out so that the consolidate move pushes you within an inch of a couple other heavy hitting units.
I had an opponent ask how do I counter this if you go first. My response was deploy as far back as possible with your valuable units and deploy at least 2 scout units to block movement. If you go first shoot out at least 15 of the homagaunts sand then its just not worth it because so many will die in the charge and fight phase. Was this good advice?
Ive been crushing it lately with this tactic but everyone on the forums seems to use Hive commander on Genestealers.
I do this, but you get more killing power with 20x Genestealers. YOu are getting 80 attacks with rending, and an 5++ invul save, and if you fail the onslaught or its denied they can still move. 30 hormies is 60 attacks rerolling 1's to hit and wound, also good, but not as damaging, and they die, so you need to also give them Catalyst, which you can give to your GS as well. The only benefit is that you have 10 more guys assuming over watch doesn't get them, and you get an extra 3" pile in and 3" consolidate so you can really tie up stuff. It really comes down to what i am facing, but 9/10 i find having the more killy more survivable GS get in is far more beneficial. Sometimes with kraken, you can double advance the GS and charge, and use Hive commander on the 2nd unit and get 2 charges.
This opened up a rules question: when you shoot twice with the Exocrine, if the first volley kills enough models that the target unit is no longer in range, do you get to shoot the second volley? Neither of us knew for certain, so we rolled it off to keep the game moving.
At our shop it has generally been played as each being a completely separate shooting attack resolved one after the other, so we go through the entire sequence for each volley. The primary justification has been that other instances where an action is done twice has each action resolved separately (Khorne Berserkers with their fight twice for example). Weapon Beast also does not require both attacks be made against the same target (unlike the Russ or Fire Prism equivalent rules), so if one target is out of range it can just select a different target during the declare targets step if it had not already declared them as the target for the second volly.
Very nice battle report as well. Nice to see a different archetype than the Kraken rush lists.
Thank you! I enjoyed writing it. I need to make sure to take good notes and some photos at my next event so I can do more reports.
I'm inclined to agree with you on that interpretation of the Exocrine shooting, and will use it going forward.
I have been running a Kraken rush, using 40 'stealers, and found it meh. I'm at about 50% with it vs competitive lists, maybe 75% if I include the lucky match ups and occasional fluff/casual/experimental list. I'm working my way toward 80 of them, which will be fun, but I don't see 'Stealer rush lists being consistent event winners. I've seen some very solid Warrior and Carnifex based shooting lists. I think the way forward lies in that direction.
Resipsa131 wrote: Recently I have been using Swarmlord to catapult 30 hormagaunts across the board with Hive commander and onslaught.
You ensure that your Swarmlord is outside of 24 inches so that he can cast onslaught unopposed and then you get into position to charge one unit and spread your unit out so that the consolidate move pushes you within an inch of a couple other heavy hitting units.
I had an opponent ask how do I counter this if you go first. My response was deploy as far back as possible with your valuable units and deploy at least 2 scout units to block movement. If you go first shoot out at least 15 of the homagaunts sand then its just not worth it because so many will die in the charge and fight phase. Was this good advice?
Ive been crushing it lately with this tactic but everyone on the forums seems to use Hive commander on Genestealers.
I do this, but you get more killing power with 20x Genestealers. YOu are getting 80 attacks with rending, and an 5++ invul save, and if you fail the onslaught or its denied they can still move. 30 hormies is 60 attacks rerolling 1's to hit and wound, also good, but not as damaging, and they die, so you need to also give them Catalyst, which you can give to your GS as well. The only benefit is that you have 10 more guys assuming over watch doesn't get them, and you get an extra 3" pile in and 3" consolidate so you can really tie up stuff. It really comes down to what i am facing, but 9/10 i find having the more killy more survivable GS get in is far more beneficial. Sometimes with kraken, you can double advance the GS and charge, and use Hive commander on the 2nd unit and get 2 charges.
usually I only get to roll 4-6 dice because I’ve piled into units I didn’t charge or I’ve left a daisy chain for synapse. But you’re right everyone is using it on a max stack of GS rather than hormies
Just to clarify what I was talking about. I think most understood me but maybe a couple misunderstood (or maybe not).
If you have used different keywords between Detachments, there must be a clear visual difference between each Detachment. For example, if you have a Tyranid army with Detachments from both Hive Fleet Kraken and Kronos, the models in each Detachment must be clearly distinguishable from one to another such as a different coloured carapace. Contact us if you are unsure whether something is clearly distinguishable.
I think it's a good thing to shoot for in general, so Im thinking of either painting bases differently which was an excellent suggestion, or painting my usual whitegrey carapace a black color. Only real detachment I mix in is Kronos, and it's pretty obvious which units want to be in that Hivefleet. My Tyrannofexes are already a hardened black carapace to represent their terminator armour, which they no longer have, so I might go this route. Not sure I want to layer another coat of paint on top of already painted carapace though, so might just stick with the bases.
SHUPPET wrote: Just to clarify what I was talking about. I think most understood me but maybe a couple misunderstood (or maybe not).
Spoiler:
If you have used different keywords between Detachments, there must be a clear visual difference between each Detachment. For example, if you have a Tyranid army with Detachments from both Hive Fleet Kraken and Kronos, the models in each Detachment must be clearly distinguishable from one to another such as a different coloured carapace. Contact us if you are unsure whether something is clearly distinguishable.
I think it's a good thing to shoot for in general, so Im thinking of either painting bases differently which was an excellent suggestion, or painting my usual whitegrey carapace a black color. Only real detachment I mix in is Kronos, and it's pretty obvious which units want to be in that Hivefleet. My Tyrannofexes are already a hardened black carapace to represent their terminator armour, which they no longer have, so I might go this route. Not sure I want to layer another coat of paint on top of already painted carapace though, so might just stick with the bases.
I figured that’s what you were getting at. My playgroup already gives me grief for Tyranids being too good, so I’ve never bothered trying to mix detachments to begin with.
Why did they decide to enact that rule? Players cheating with what units got which bonuses?
SHUPPET wrote: Just to clarify what I was talking about. I think most understood me but maybe a couple misunderstood (or maybe not).
Spoiler:
If you have used different keywords between Detachments, there must be a clear visual difference between each Detachment. For example, if you have a Tyranid army with Detachments from both Hive Fleet Kraken and Kronos, the models in each Detachment must be clearly distinguishable from one to another such as a different coloured carapace. Contact us if you are unsure whether something is clearly distinguishable.
I think it's a good thing to shoot for in general, so Im thinking of either painting bases differently which was an excellent suggestion, or painting my usual whitegrey carapace a black color. Only real detachment I mix in is Kronos, and it's pretty obvious which units want to be in that Hivefleet. My Tyrannofexes are already a hardened black carapace to represent their terminator armour, which they no longer have, so I might go this route. Not sure I want to layer another coat of paint on top of already painted carapace though, so might just stick with the bases.
I figured that’s what you were getting at. My playgroup already gives me grief for Tyranids being too good, so I’ve never bothered trying to mix detachments to begin with.
Why did they decide to enact that rule? Players cheating with what units got which bonuses?
No nothing like that. No reason given, we can only speculate. I think it's one of two reasons (or both). The fact that it's their big event and they see it also as advertisement for their range, and for narrative purposes they likely want their official colors to be representative of the corresponding armies, which is also another form of WYSIWYG, especially with subfactions giving different bonuses, so that it's easily distinguishable for opponents. The other possibility is that they are trying to set a standard that they hope picks up, both for the above reasons, and to lure even a small base of people into rebuying the same models for a new paint scheme.
I have to ask - what's the benefits of Neophytes over Termagants?
Neophytes are really good at holding out-of-the-way objectives. Cult Ambush and Return to Shadows allows them to deploy and redeploy where required and they sport a 5+ save vs the Termagant's 6+ save. They also have Ld. 8 so they don't really need a babysitter for moral purposes (though they can get rerolls from an Iconward or complete immunity from a Patriarch which is a Brood Lord "+1" for 12 points cheaper).
While the tournament list didn't feature them, Neophytes also have access to some fairly nice heavy weapon options and can take two special weapons at 10-strong.
Alright so that's what I'm playing at the moment. The reason I enquired about Neophytes, is because I am considering these changes, starting by dropping:
* half the Hive Guards and moving the 6 into the main Hive Fleet (full unit of HG)
* their Neurothrope babysitter
* two of the units of Termagants
* Spore Cysts on the Dakkafex
and replacing it with a Patrol detachment of GSC (Primus, Magus, 20x Purestrain, 10x Neophyte).
The significant changes here are a slightly less resilient Dakkafex squadron, one less unit of 10x troops (might be cutting it short with just 2x 10), and no Kronos buffs on the Hive Guard. Also, probably not gonna babysit the HG and just take Dominion on one Neurothrope and Norn Crown on the other while moving them up behind the Leviathan Fexes, which is actually hopefully a more points efficient way of doing that in general.
but in return for these trade offs, it gives me something to cause backfield havoc when the Sporocysts deploy offensively, a much greater CC presence in general if needed, and an improved troop that can be relocated with CP.
I'm also considering dropping down to 5x Dakkafex to just shore up up these holes, grabbing another unit or two of Neophytes, or a unit of Neophytes and putting Spore Cysts back on the remaining 5x Fexes if I feel they are constantly a priority target (which I don't think that Leviathan Fexes ever will be, on a field with 3x Sporocysts and a max size Purestrain squad). In fact, on that note I'm considering even changing the Leviathan Hive Fleet to either Kraken to get the Fexes up the board faster, or Kronos to benefit the last remaining unit of HG.
I'm heavily leaning towards doing this, but I don't own the GSC models yet though. So I just wanted to put it past you guys first before I go out and make the purchase. Thoughts? How important do you guys value second and third squad of HG after the first? How gimmicky or reliable is the Purestrain unit with the way people are screening these days? Or less so after the FAQ? How important are those screens of my own? I have my own soft opinions here but I'd like to hear first from people more experienced in this edition especially with the GSC detachment.
I don’t see why you wouldn’t go with your latter choice(the GSC allies), but go ahead and drop all the Termagants and get a battalion of GSC for the CP. Neophytes will screen just as well as Termagants, and give you the option to Ambush them onto farther objectives.
Sinful Hero wrote: I don’t see why you wouldn’t go with your latter choice(the GSC allies), but go ahead and drop all the Termagants and get a battalion of GSC for the CP. Neophytes will screen just as well as Termagants, and give you the option to Ambush them onto farther objectives.
Yeah, that's where I'm most likely going with it now. I have 3 Neophytes on my temp list, trying to decide whether I can get by with that, or whether I should go down to 5x Carnifex to fit in 2x Rippers and a Termagant as well.
Sinful Hero wrote: You mean you’ll drop down to 5x Carnifex to put Sporocysts on? Or to make room for the Neophytes?
I mean that I can go
GSC battalion (with the Neophytes) + 3x Sporocysts + Tyranid detachment with 2x Neurothrope, 6x Hive Guard, 6x Dakkafex
But as it stands I'm dropping a Carnifex for more Tyranid troops (2x Rippers, 1 unit of Termagants, and Bone Maces on the last 5 Fexen). I don't know if I want to push it to that 6th Dakkafex, I do like to use all 6 I have but I think it might be greedy, even if I don't need the extra 10 gants I think I probably want the Rippers.
I'm not going to bother investing in Carnifex defense, I feel they are not the top priority target and I can play to that.
Do you have a limit on Detachments? Personally I think you’d be better off with the Rippers, Gants, and bone maces to make it another Battalion than the 6th Carnifex.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I agree on not bothering with Carnifex defense in your list. Boys before toys and all that.
Sinful Hero wrote: Do you have a limit on Detachments? Personally I think you’d be better off with the Rippers, Gants, and bone maces to make it another Battalion than the 6th Carnifex.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I agree on not bothering with Carnifex defense in your list. Boys before toys and all that.
I'm finishing off something to travel with so I'm preparing for the possibility of either. But yeah the second Battalion is obviously ideal for the times that there isn't, I don't know why I wouldn't do that.
Thanks for the help man.
EDIT: it makes it a clean 2k and includes everything I wanted to play with, so I'm definitely happy with this.
SHUPPET wrote: Do you guys paint your Hive Fleets differently? Ala the rules for the new 1750 GT? Or just in general?
Main collection is painted in the 2ed colours of red chitin, purple skin, bone armour. That studio army was used to represent Kraken and Behemoth, and as it happens has elements of both modern studio armies of those fleets. I usually field it as Behemoth but sometimes as Kraken; rarely both the same as it’s a headache to organise without visual clues and not nice on the opponent.
Secondary collection is Orknids, going to be building a detachment from all seven fleets and giving each HF some particular stripes or mottling or such that helps mark them out from the others.
Currently waiting on a load of bits to build a Warrior horde from Hive Fleet Moregundakka
Got back from my first Major GT, Dallas Open. I placed 28 out of 71, I was shooting for top 1/3, so I just missed the mark. Top 3 finishers were 1st and 3rd, Drukhari, and 2nd was GSC/Nid Soup (5 carnifexs, Biovores, and GSC ambushers) proving mass carnifex can do well. There was also another GSC/Nid/Soup mix list ahead of me, but I was the best Pure Tyranid General (though I didn't get the best general since they put GSC with Tyranids). Booo :( I did go in prepared, reread rules, made notes of powerful units of other armies etc... I made a Order of Operations checklist to follow each turn which was helpful. Also made a T1 chart of what unit moves, which gets stratagem, which gets Hive commander, how to positions etc... Also made a Deployment order for my units (place Hive Guard last, rippers into DS first). I posted a reveiw of the tourney, in short it went very well, one minor hiccup with BCP app resulted in an hour delay, terrain, food, water, checking, tables, chairs all good, no London GT fiascos in Big D! Everything is Bigger and Better in Texas!
Kronos Batt
Neuro, Soul Hunger WLT,
Flyrant, Dev w/ Brainleech worms, Balethron relic
Rippers 3 bases
Rippers 3 bases
Termies x9 with Fleshborer, x19 Devilgants
Hiveguard x6
Carnifex with Spores and enhance senses, 2x Dev Barinleech worms
12 drops, 13 cp, 1999 pts
Game 1: vs Astra Militarum/Space Wolfs
Spoiler:
Game 1: vs Astra Militarum/Space Wolfs. This guy was like his 2nd game ever, brother made list which was solid with Leman Russ, pask, Screeners, Razorback AC x2, Flyer. Solid list, he just didn't play it well. It was Hammer and Anvil and he put his guys right on the front line. I got both units of GS T1 charge and then followed up with Hormies and SL T2. HG took out Tanks and it was pretty dominant for me board control wise. I got first turn (Since he wasn't fully painted he took the painting -2 to roll off). I also periled on 12 with my WL (I periled on 12 every game and never on smite lol). Only got through 3 turns, despite me using movement trays and trying to keep piles of dice together, but when you are rolling 76 GS dice twice, and about 60 termie and hormie dice, it takes a while. Hive Guard took at Lemans, Flyrant and GS finished themoff. The other guy had to look up A LOT of stuff, but that was fine. I won something like 26-6.
Game 2: vs Nurgle plaguebearer list[
Spoiler:
Game 2: vs Nurgle plaguebearer list. (Game 1 guys brother). This was my first attempt against this list. I took Reaper, since he had 2 unit of 29, might have been a mistake. This was spearhead deployment, I got a 7 on my roll, he got a 6. Tried to re roll Seize, said he couldn't had to get TO ruling, but not a big deal. I point this out because this was the first time I had to call TO on rules issues. Not any arguments, but I was surprised at how many people were not very familiar with rules or FAQ's. You really need to be solid on your rules, and the main armies you will come up against (at least have a general Idea of the rules and tips and tricks, but not necessarily memorize their stats).
This was a bloody slugfest. Again got both GS units on T1 charge. Again peril on 12, this time on swarmlord. Got the unit of Plaguebearers down to under 10 models 2x and then he rolled 6 all 3 turns for regen. So I effectively killed about 58 plaguebears in one unit and never actually wiped it. This sucked hard. I should have put both units of GS into one unit in hindsight, instead of having the others go into his tanks and let the hormies do that. Flyrant Balethron did get to shoot 1x which was nice ignoring the invuls, but afterward both Plaguebeare units were always in combat. He took out his tanks/big guys. Ended up winning 14-6, again mainly due to board control and good secondaries. RECON IS GOLD with Rippers, and headhunter. Again only 3 turns, complete as he too was having to look up unit stats, and was a bit slow in rolling. Great guy though, nicely painted army. He offered to concede at the end of the game, like with time at 1 minute to give me the points since he wasn't going to play day 2. I said thanks but not thanks, he still had at least half his army on the board and honestly, if the game went to 6 turns he might have won, as the plaguebearer hordes. I think he felt kind of bad for being slow but I didn't feel it would be honorable to game the system like that.
Game 3: vs GSC/Kronos/AM
Spoiler:
Game 3: vs GSC/Kronos/AMThis was my favorite game despite being "blue on blue" which I normally hate. Before the game, the TO said I had 2 flags for "incomplete games since I didn't make it to turn 4, not a penalty or anything, but just something to be aware of. I wasn't even aware this was a thing, and was a bit frustrated as I didn't feel it was my fault. Anyway, Deployment was the diagonal one. Again got first turn and got both units of GS to charge T1. Periled again, this time with Flyrant lol. This game went much faster since we basically knew each other armies ( i am familiar with guard, and somewhat with Cult, he just had to explain the difference).
On his first turn we were Bull gaking and have a good time and he got to psychic phase and forgot his DS ambush. I let him have it (though regretted it), but despite my 2 wins I knew I wasn't in the running for placements since I had low points and their was a Drukhari guy at 80 already. He ambushed them and charge my Hiveguard. He killed them and then locked up my carnifex and termies (and preceded to do this all they way to T6 when my carnifex finally killed the last GS.) it was annoying b/c he parked his character on my objective (where the HG were and was getting the Bonus point each turn for holding both. This won him the game. As I was tearing up his backline on his side, though he held his objective (he had IG morrtars, neophytes, 10 HG, 3 Neuro, one with Sould Hunger,) which I failed like 4x on and kept getting mortal wounds. Sadly I never got to do this trick as My Neuro was baby sitting my gunline in the back( actually had a bit of an issue with synapse coverage at times with Carnifex). My Swarmlord and Malantrhope died to his 2nd ambush but manage to kill almost all the GS. The Ambush was hitting on 2's with S5, yuk. In the end, the game went all 6 rounds, he tabled me. Great game. Lost 35-16.
Game 4 vs Custodes soup
Spoiler:
Game 4 vs Custodes soup: Standing at 28, solid middle of pack, we had some people drop. End up playing Custodes, Sisters, Assassins Soup. Celsistine, the Piano Organ Rhino thing, 3 units of 3 bikes, 1 custodes shield cpt, 2 pysker assasins, 1 assassin that ignores invuls, some sister troops I had a plan for this list and prepared so I had an idea what to do. Deployment was Dawn of war, he use to play nids back in 5th, so he was vaguely familiar with everything, he deployed back edge. I again got T1. I only got 1 unit of GS in T1 as I rolled a 2 on both of my advances, for both units so I Had to use Opportunistic Advance AND Hive Commander on the same unit to get them into charge.
Had to call TO about a rule on charges, as he didn't think I could leave models and daisy chain them, leaving a few models behind to stay near his objective. Also since he had fly he wanted to consolidate over me, I said thats fine, but he was base to base with a model so he had to still remain base to base to the closest model so essentially he had to rotate. Again he was trying to do this to get within his objective but was unable to do so. Neither of us where upset or mean about it or anything (just again, pointing out that you need to know your rules, or when in doubt just ask a TO.) During other games I was able to Hive Commander 1 units, and opportunistic advance the other to get both in. Also peril again on 12, this time with SL again. HG killed Rhino T1. Managed to get GS into unit of bikes and take his priority objective.
I messed up and picked bad secondaries this game. Recon, Headhunter (mistake), and Behind Enemy Lines, Also a mistake. His list had like 7 characters, but they are all durable. Over course of game I killed 1 assassin, 1 unit of bikes and his shield captain (warlord) final round which means Old School would have been a better choice. Also, forgot my DS on my rippers T2, so I lost out on recon. He forgot his DS T2 as well though so it was all good. Swarmlord and GS and Malanthrope Fought Celestine and his Shield Captain. I killed her T3, she came back though boo. Game went 4 turns, he had solid board control with the bikes and I needed more HG to kill them. I lost, score was like 25-8.
Game 5 vs Asra Militarum Cadians[
Spoiler:
Game 5 vs Asra Militarum Cadians: Going in at 2-2 ending up getting matched against pure Cadian list. Shadowsword, Vulture, 1 tank commander, pask, 4x inf sq, basilisk, 5 characters, cmd squad. Deployment was the one with the 9" circle i the middle (forget the name). I have been reading up on guard and experiment with list, and this was very similar to a list i had considered building. He deployed up close again, not sure why. We picked secondaries, and like an idiot i picked reaper as he had 4 squads of infantry, only after the game had started did he point out that they were not eligible for reaper, since the HW team was 2 wounds, but 1 model, dropping them all to 9. I reread the rule, and sure enough it was 10 models, I called TO just to check and he ruled in his favor. DAMNIT, oh well, I still wasn't too concerned I figured I could beat him on 2 secondaries (headhunter, and recon, should have picked big game hunter instead).
He did preliminary bombardment, didn't get anything out of it. Again got first turn, again got both GS on T1 charges, again periled, this time with SL. HG got pask to 1 wound, other leman took a few from flyrnat and dakkafex. GS killed 3 squads of infantry and command sq, and wounded a character. I tied up his tanks, as they were lose enough to pile in to. His turn, he fell back, only getting to shoot with 1 leman, the basilisk killed 2 HG, Vulture killed about 10 hormies. He cast nightshroud on an undamaged Leman. I could tell he was a bit agitated at this point as I was in his tanks already and he had little damage. He rolled slow, shaking each dice about 3-5 seconds before rolling, taking time on grouping them etc... I didn't say anything but questioned if he was intentionally slow playing me.
He then shot the shadowsword and tried to use Cadian doctrine on it. I pointed out on his list it is inn a Super Heavy Aux Detachment so he didn't get the doctrine but could use stratagems, he disagreed, I asked him to show me the rule, to which he realized he was wrong. Keep in mind this guy 2-2 and around same points as me, we are on game 5, I wonder how many times he had done this to other opponents not realizing. Shadowsword put some wounds on flyrant and carnifex but nothing deadly. He then went YOLO with his Characters and charged my GS. After he fought with 1 I thought about interrupting but didn't. I killed 3 characters in the fight, did feeder tendrils got a CP back (bring me to 7), at this point he was down to like 2.
He then questioned how many CP I had spend, and I had to go back and recount all my CP and prove it was accurate taking extra time. Then he tried to give not 2, but 3 orders to the same unit and then use laurels to combo it onto another unit thus giving both 2. I pointed out he can only give 1 order to a unit, he looked it up and discovered I was right, and even though he did bring it down first, I told him he can pick whichever of the 3 he wanted, he choose 1st rank fire, 2nd rank fire. He again seemed annoyed that apparently I knew his codex better than him.
Next up on my turn 2 I get my GS within an inch of his objective and mortars and basilisk. Swrmy and GS #2 get within an inch of the Leman, pask, and shadowsword. Hormies move in to lock in shadowsword from the flank. I DS rippers behind table quarters for RECON. Then he tries to tell me smite 1st attempt goes off on a 7... and he is a character less than 10 wounds. First of all, he is the closest model, 2nd thats only shooting, 3rd smite targets closest model anyway, finally I just hand him my card. His guy dies. Then in shooting I shoot HG at tank, hit with all 12 shots, roll three 3. Tank dies, then explodes killing pask, nearby and 1 GS, then puts pask explodes putting 3 wounds on shadowsword. As he picks up the model he sees the nightshroud card under the tank (which I could't see from where I was standing). Ask me if I did the -1, I said no, as I wasn't aware (honestly didnt see it). I said I only rolled 3 3's on my hit rolls and still would have put out 9*2 (18 damage and killed the tank anyway or offered to redo the reroll and put pask back) Even if I didn't kill them on the reroll I was confident GS, Swarmy and Hormies would finish them off. He rolled his eyes said forget it, rage quite and said the game was no longer fun. Said I was questioning him on all his rules. To which I said, rightly so, as every ruling I questioned him on I was correct on, excluding the fact that he didnt say his units qualified for reaper until after the fact. Again we are middle of the pact, not going to place, just be sporting about it. I pointed out to most opponents, I have 6 reaper point available in my list, and 4 characters.
Called TO over, had him tally me up with a secede and he was surprised. With the way things were going, he would have been table by T3 (maybe his Vulture would have been zipping around, but then I would have had to point out if only fliers remain at the end of the round you are considered "tabled".) Surely there would have been another rules debate.
This game could have been fun, but man he did not know the rules at all. And not sure if he was upset b/c I was calling him out on it and others weren't, because it was the last game of the day. Because he was getting pounded or what.
33-4 Victory
Overall Summary Thought: Still confirm that HG and GS are MVPs. Hormies didn't do much, probably will drop them, and take more GS. Carnifex/Flyrant didn't do much as well, mainly draw big gun support and mainly due to 18" range and me having to worry about synapse with gants. Never got to use Soul hunger. Gants & Gaunts mostly just died. SL was good some games, not used others (in terms of killing) but the Hive Commander is vital in all games. He only died 2x, in both my losses. Malanthrope did a bit of shrouding, only got his Prey Adaption off against he Custodes Soup list, but it was late game. I took him for T1 survivalibilty and managed to get first turn EVERY GAME, so may not be the best judge of points. Probably would drop the Carnifex and Hormies, maybe change the termies to pure Fleshborers. Take another units of GS, more hiveguard, another Neuro , maybe warriors with VC to get a bit more Anit tank. Flyrant might take miasma cannon next time. Soul Hunger was a waste, probably would have been better off with the +6" to synaspe range.
The other nid list one guy had GS, 12 hive guard, venomthropes, walkrant, swarmy, and termies. Another guy did a 6x carnifex list but mixed melee and shooty, best to go all melee or all shooty. If you want both, take a unit of screamer killers for melee, and a second unit of all dakkafex. The two GSC soup list relied on the ambush rule, mortars, and smite spam and placed well (both above me, 1 guy got 2nd).
Drukhari are very powerful, top table was Drukhari/Orks right next to me, and after my drama I watched them. Venom spam is gonna get nerfed. Points are way to cheap. This guy wiped 180 boys, had 45 gretchin as well. Crazy.
Dynas wrote: Got back from my first Major GT, Dallas Open. I placed 28 out of 71, I was shooting for top 1/3, so I just missed the mark. Top 3 finishers were 1st and 3rd, Drukhari, and 2nd was GSC/Nid Soup (5 carnifexs, Biovores, and GSC ambushers) proving mass carnifex can do well. There was also another GSC/Nid/Soup mix list ahead of me, but I was the best Pure Tyranid General (though I didn't get the best general since they put GSC with Tyranids). Booo :( I did go in prepared, reread rules, made notes of powerful units of other armies etc... I made a Order of Operations checklist to follow each turn which was helpful. Also made a T1 chart of what unit moves, which gets stratagem, which gets Hive commander, how to positions etc... Also made a Deployment order for my units (place Hive Guard last, rippers into DS first). I posted a reveiw of the tourney, in short it went very well, one minor hiccup with BCP app resulted in an hour delay, terrain, food, water, checking, tables, chairs all good, no London GT fiascos in Big D! Everything is Bigger and Better in Texas!
Kronos Batt
Neuro, Soul Hunger WLT,
Flyrant, Dev w/ Brainleech worms, Balethron relic
Rippers 3 bases
Rippers 3 bases
Termies x9 with Fleshborer, x19 Devilgants
Hiveguard x6
Carnifex with Spores and enhance senses, 2x Dev Barinleech worms
12 drops, 13 cp, 1999 pts
Game 1: vs Astra Militarum/Space Wolfs
Spoiler:
Game 1: vs Astra Militarum/Space Wolfs. This guy was like his 2nd game ever, brother made list which was solid with Leman Russ, pask, Screeners, Razorback AC x2, Flyer. Solid list, he just didn't play it well. It was Hammer and Anvil and he put his guys right on the front line. I got both units of GS T1 charge and then followed up with Hormies and SL T2. HG took out Tanks and it was pretty dominant for me board control wise. I got first turn (Since he wasn't fully painted he took the painting -2 to roll off). I also periled on 12 with my WL (I periled on 12 every game and never on smite lol). Only got through 3 turns, despite me using movement trays and trying to keep piles of dice together, but when you are rolling 76 GS dice twice, and about 60 termie and hormie dice, it takes a while. Hive Guard took at Lemans, Flyrant and GS finished themoff. The other guy had to look up A LOT of stuff, but that was fine. I won something like 26-6.
Game 2: vs Nurgle plaguebearer list[
Spoiler:
Game 2: vs Nurgle plaguebearer list. (Game 1 guys brother). This was my first attempt against this list. I took Reaper, since he had 2 unit of 29, might have been a mistake. This was spearhead deployment, I got a 7 on my roll, he got a 6. Tried to re roll Seize, said he couldn't had to get TO ruling, but not a big deal. I point this out because this was the first time I had to call TO on rules issues. Not any arguments, but I was surprised at how many people were not very familiar with rules or FAQ's. You really need to be solid on your rules, and the main armies you will come up against (at least have a general Idea of the rules and tips and tricks, but not necessarily memorize their stats).
This was a bloody slugfest. Again got both GS units on T1 charge. Again peril on 12, this time on swarmlord. Got the unit of Plaguebearers down to under 10 models 2x and then he rolled 6 all 3 turns for regen. So I effectively killed about 58 plaguebears in one unit and never actually wiped it. This sucked hard. I should have put both units of GS into one unit in hindsight, instead of having the others go into his tanks and let the hormies do that. Flyrant Balethron did get to shoot 1x which was nice ignoring the invuls, but afterward both Plaguebeare units were always in combat. He took out his tanks/big guys. Ended up winning 14-6, again mainly due to board control and good secondaries. RECON IS GOLD with Rippers, and headhunter. Again only 3 turns, complete as he too was having to look up unit stats, and was a bit slow in rolling. Great guy though, nicely painted army. He offered to concede at the end of the game, like with time at 1 minute to give me the points since he wasn't going to play day 2. I said thanks but not thanks, he still had at least half his army on the board and honestly, if the game went to 6 turns he might have won, as the plaguebearer hordes. I think he felt kind of bad for being slow but I didn't feel it would be honorable to game the system like that.
Game 3: vs GSC/Kronos/AM
Spoiler:
Game 3: vs GSC/Kronos/AMThis was my favorite game despite being "blue on blue" which I normally hate. Before the game, the TO said I had 2 flags for "incomplete games since I didn't make it to turn 4, not a penalty or anything, but just something to be aware of. I wasn't even aware this was a thing, and was a bit frustrated as I didn't feel it was my fault. Anyway, Deployment was the diagonal one. Again got first turn and got both units of GS to charge T1. Periled again, this time with Flyrant lol. This game went much faster since we basically knew each other armies ( i am familiar with guard, and somewhat with Cult, he just had to explain the difference).
On his first turn we were Bull gaking and have a good time and he got to psychic phase and forgot his DS ambush. I let him have it (though regretted it), but despite my 2 wins I knew I wasn't in the running for placements since I had low points and their was a Drukhari guy at 80 already. He ambushed them and charge my Hiveguard. He killed them and then locked up my carnifex and termies (and preceded to do this all they way to T6 when my carnifex finally killed the last GS.) it was annoying b/c he parked his character on my objective (where the HG were and was getting the Bonus point each turn for holding both. This won him the game. As I was tearing up his backline on his side, though he held his objective (he had IG morrtars, neophytes, 10 HG, 3 Neuro, one with Sould Hunger,) which I failed like 4x on and kept getting mortal wounds. Sadly I never got to do this trick as My Neuro was baby sitting my gunline in the back( actually had a bit of an issue with synapse coverage at times with Carnifex). My Swarmlord and Malantrhope died to his 2nd ambush but manage to kill almost all the GS. The Ambush was hitting on 2's with S5, yuk. In the end, the game went all 6 rounds, he tabled me. Great game. Lost 35-16.
Game 4 vs Custodes soup
Spoiler:
Game 4 vs Custodes soup: Standing at 28, solid middle of pack, we had some people drop. End up playing Custodes, Sisters, Assassins Soup. Celsistine, the Piano Organ Rhino thing, 3 units of 3 bikes, 1 custodes shield cpt, 2 pysker assasins, 1 assassin that ignores invuls, some sister troops I had a plan for this list and prepared so I had an idea what to do. Deployment was Dawn of war, he use to play nids back in 5th, so he was vaguely familiar with everything, he deployed back edge. I again got T1. I only got 1 unit of GS in T1 as I rolled a 2 on both of my advances, for both units so I Had to use Opportunistic Advance AND Hive Commander on the same unit to get them into charge.
Had to call TO about a rule on charges, as he didn't think I could leave models and daisy chain them, leaving a few models behind to stay near his objective. Also since he had fly he wanted to consolidate over me, I said thats fine, but he was base to base with a model so he had to still remain base to base to the closest model so essentially he had to rotate. Again he was trying to do this to get within his objective but was unable to do so. Neither of us where upset or mean about it or anything (just again, pointing out that you need to know your rules, or when in doubt just ask a TO.) During other games I was able to Hive Commander 1 units, and opportunistic advance the other to get both in. Also peril again on 12, this time with SL again. HG killed Rhino T1. Managed to get GS into unit of bikes and take his priority objective.
I messed up and picked bad secondaries this game. Recon, Headhunter (mistake), and Behind Enemy Lines, Also a mistake. His list had like 7 characters, but they are all durable. Over course of game I killed 1 assassin, 1 unit of bikes and his shield captain (warlord) final round which means Old School would have been a better choice. Also, forgot my DS on my rippers T2, so I lost out on recon. He forgot his DS T2 as well though so it was all good. Swarmlord and GS and Malanthrope Fought Celestine and his Shield Captain. I killed her T3, she came back though boo. Game went 4 turns, he had solid board control with the bikes and I needed more HG to kill them. I lost, score was like 25-8.
Game 5 vs Asra Militarum Cadians[
Spoiler:
Game 5 vs Asra Militarum Cadians: Going in at 2-2 ending up getting matched against pure Cadian list. Shadowsword, Vulture, 1 tank commander, pask, 4x inf sq, basilisk, 5 characters, cmd squad. Deployment was the one with the 9" circle i the middle (forget the name). I have been reading up on guard and experiment with list, and this was very similar to a list i had considered building. He deployed up close again, not sure why. We picked secondaries, and like an idiot i picked reaper as he had 4 squads of infantry, only after the game had started did he point out that they were not eligible for reaper, since the HW team was 2 wounds, but 1 model, dropping them all to 9. I reread the rule, and sure enough it was 10 models, I called TO just to check and he ruled in his favor. DAMNIT, oh well, I still wasn't too concerned I figured I could beat him on 2 secondaries (headhunter, and recon, should have picked big game hunter instead).
He did preliminary bombardment, didn't get anything out of it. Again got first turn, again got both GS on T1 charges, again periled, this time with SL. HG got pask to 1 wound, other leman took a few from flyrnat and dakkafex. GS killed 3 squads of infantry and command sq, and wounded a character. I tied up his tanks, as they were lose enough to pile in to. His turn, he fell back, only getting to shoot with 1 leman, the basilisk killed 2 HG, Vulture killed about 10 hormies. He cast nightshroud on an undamaged Leman. I could tell he was a bit agitated at this point as I was in his tanks already and he had little damage. He rolled slow, shaking each dice about 3-5 seconds before rolling, taking time on grouping them etc... I didn't say anything but questioned if he was intentionally slow playing me.
He then shot the shadowsword and tried to use Cadian doctrine on it. I pointed out on his list it is inn a Super Heavy Aux Detachment so he didn't get the doctrine but could use stratagems, he disagreed, I asked him to show me the rule, to which he realized he was wrong. Keep in mind this guy 2-2 and around same points as me, we are on game 5, I wonder how many times he had done this to other opponents not realizing. Shadowsword put some wounds on flyrant and carnifex but nothing deadly. He then went YOLO with his Characters and charged my GS. After he fought with 1 I thought about interrupting but didn't. I killed 3 characters in the fight, did feeder tendrils got a CP back (bring me to 7), at this point he was down to like 2.
He then questioned how many CP I had spend, and I had to go back and recount all my CP and prove it was accurate taking extra time. Then he tried to give not 2, but 3 orders to the same unit and then use laurels to combo it onto another unit thus giving both 2. I pointed out he can only give 1 order to a unit, he looked it up and discovered I was right, and even though he did bring it down first, I told him he can pick whichever of the 3 he wanted, he choose 1st rank fire, 2nd rank fire. He again seemed annoyed that apparently I knew his codex better than him.
Next up on my turn 2 I get my GS within an inch of his objective and mortars and basilisk. Swrmy and GS #2 get within an inch of the Leman, pask, and shadowsword. Hormies move in to lock in shadowsword from the flank. I DS rippers behind table quarters for RECON. Then he tries to tell me smite 1st attempt goes off on a 7... and he is a character less than 10 wounds. First of all, he is the closest model, 2nd thats only shooting, 3rd smite targets closest model anyway, finally I just hand him my card. His guy dies. Then in shooting I shoot HG at tank, hit with all 12 shots, roll three 3. Tank dies, then explodes killing pask, nearby and 1 GS, then puts pask explodes putting 3 wounds on shadowsword. As he picks up the model he sees the nightshroud card under the tank (which I could't see from where I was standing). Ask me if I did the -1, I said no, as I wasn't aware (honestly didnt see it). I said I only rolled 3 3's on my hit rolls and still would have put out 9*2 (18 damage and killed the tank anyway or offered to redo the reroll and put pask back) Even if I didn't kill them on the reroll I was confident GS, Swarmy and Hormies would finish them off. He rolled his eyes said forget it, rage quite and said the game was no longer fun. Said I was questioning him on all his rules. To which I said, rightly so, as every ruling I questioned him on I was correct on, excluding the fact that he didnt say his units qualified for reaper until after the fact. Again we are middle of the pact, not going to place, just be sporting about it. I pointed out to most opponents, I have 6 reaper point available in my list, and 4 characters.
Called TO over, had him tally me up with a secede and he was surprised. With the way things were going, he would have been table by T3 (maybe his Vulture would have been zipping around, but then I would have had to point out if only fliers remain at the end of the round you are considered "tabled".) Surely there would have been another rules debate.
This game could have been fun, but man he did not know the rules at all. And not sure if he was upset b/c I was calling him out on it and others weren't, because it was the last game of the day. Because he was getting pounded or what.
33-4 Victory
Overall Summary Thought: Still confirm that HG and GS are MVPs. Hormies didn't do much, probably will drop them, and take more GS. Carnifex/Flyrant didn't do much as well, mainly draw big gun support and mainly due to 18" range and me having to worry about synapse with gants. Never got to use Soul hunger. Gants & Gaunts mostly just died. SL was good some games, not used others (in terms of killing) but the Hive Commander is vital in all games. He only died 2x, in both my losses. Malanthrope did a bit of shrouding, only got his Prey Adaption off against he Custodes Soup list, but it was late game. I took him for T1 survivalibilty and managed to get first turn EVERY GAME, so may not be the best judge of points. Probably would drop the Carnifex and Hormies, maybe change the termies to pure Fleshborers. Take another units of GS, more hiveguard, another Neuro , maybe warriors with VC to get a bit more Anit tank. Flyrant might take miasma cannon next time. Soul Hunger was a waste, probably would have been better off with the +6" to synaspe range.
The other nid list one guy had GS, 12 hive guard, venomthropes, walkrant, swarmy, and termies. Another guy did a 6x carnifex list but mixed melee and shooty, best to go all melee or all shooty. If you want both, take a unit of screamer killers for melee, and a second unit of all dakkafex. The two GSC soup list relied on the ambush rule, mortars, and smite spam and placed well (both above me, 1 guy got 2nd).
Drukhari are very powerful, top table was Drukhari/Orks right next to me, and after my drama I watched them. Venom spam is gonna get nerfed. Points are way to cheap. This guy wiped 180 boys, had 45 gretchin as well. Crazy.
Thanks for the report. I can't get enough Tyranid competitive content so I'm eager to see other people do the same. This was great.
That sideword from the judge is the WRONG way for them to handle it. Judge or not I would have reacted extremely snappily to that remark, considering the first game was against a brand new player and the second was against his brother playing Nurgle no less an unfamiliar with his army. Sheesh.
Don't regret allowing a first turn mistake from your opponent, especially if it was cause you guys were having a good time. As InControl said, you gotta let the first one go, but let em know that you won't be okay'ing the next one, otherwise you're "that guy". You didn't allow him to do anything his army couldn't already, so your only takeaway from that loss should be how to adapt your list or tactics. Could better screening have saved you from losing that HG unit off the bat?
Your final opponent sounds like a real.... jerk, and I'm glad you stood up for yourself when he threw a bitchfit. Ive resolved not to stand for that sort of blatantly hypocritical and anti-competitive behavior, it doesn't have a place in tourney.
As for your list, I like the Kraken detachment. I looked at the Kronos one and felt it might not have the cohesion with the rest of your list to be as impactful as you might have hoped, seems you found that yourself.
Hmm, how are Behemoth Hormagaunts? I had a good result with a large multi-charge that got loads into 1” then trampled out some MW.
Self-sufficient in CP as they’re a fifth of a Battalion, no need for overcosted hormie upgrades, and adds to the threat perception thereby improving their ability to be an anti-horde fire magnet...
Dynas wrote: Got back from my first Major GT, Dallas Open. I placed 28 out of 71, I was shooting for top 1/3, so I just missed the mark. Top 3 finishers were 1st and 3rd, Drukhari, and 2nd was GSC/Nid Soup (5 carnifexs, Biovores, and GSC ambushers) proving mass carnifex can do well. There was also another GSC/Nid/Soup mix list ahead of me, but I was the best Pure Tyranid General (though I didn't get the best general since they put GSC with Tyranids). Booo :( I did go in prepared, reread rules, made notes of powerful units of other armies etc... I made a Order of Operations checklist to follow each turn which was helpful. Also made a T1 chart of what unit moves, which gets stratagem, which gets Hive commander, how to positions etc... Also made a Deployment order for my units (place Hive Guard last, rippers into DS first). I posted a reveiw of the tourney, in short it went very well, one minor hiccup with BCP app resulted in an hour delay, terrain, food, water, checking, tables, chairs all good, no London GT fiascos in Big D! Everything is Bigger and Better in Texas!
Kronos Batt
Neuro, Soul Hunger WLT,
Flyrant, Dev w/ Brainleech worms, Balethron relic
Rippers 3 bases
Rippers 3 bases
Termies x9 with Fleshborer, x19 Devilgants
Hiveguard x6
Carnifex with Spores and enhance senses, 2x Dev Barinleech worms
12 drops, 13 cp, 1999 pts
Game 1: vs Astra Militarum/Space Wolfs
Spoiler:
Game 1: vs Astra Militarum/Space Wolfs. This guy was like his 2nd game ever, brother made list which was solid with Leman Russ, pask, Screeners, Razorback AC x2, Flyer. Solid list, he just didn't play it well. It was Hammer and Anvil and he put his guys right on the front line. I got both units of GS T1 charge and then followed up with Hormies and SL T2. HG took out Tanks and it was pretty dominant for me board control wise. I got first turn (Since he wasn't fully painted he took the painting -2 to roll off). I also periled on 12 with my WL (I periled on 12 every game and never on smite lol). Only got through 3 turns, despite me using movement trays and trying to keep piles of dice together, but when you are rolling 76 GS dice twice, and about 60 termie and hormie dice, it takes a while. Hive Guard took at Lemans, Flyrant and GS finished themoff. The other guy had to look up A LOT of stuff, but that was fine. I won something like 26-6.
Game 2: vs Nurgle plaguebearer list[
Spoiler:
Game 2: vs Nurgle plaguebearer list. (Game 1 guys brother). This was my first attempt against this list. I took Reaper, since he had 2 unit of 29, might have been a mistake. This was spearhead deployment, I got a 7 on my roll, he got a 6. Tried to re roll Seize, said he couldn't had to get TO ruling, but not a big deal. I point this out because this was the first time I had to call TO on rules issues. Not any arguments, but I was surprised at how many people were not very familiar with rules or FAQ's. You really need to be solid on your rules, and the main armies you will come up against (at least have a general Idea of the rules and tips and tricks, but not necessarily memorize their stats).
This was a bloody slugfest. Again got both GS units on T1 charge. Again peril on 12, this time on swarmlord. Got the unit of Plaguebearers down to under 10 models 2x and then he rolled 6 all 3 turns for regen. So I effectively killed about 58 plaguebears in one unit and never actually wiped it. This sucked hard. I should have put both units of GS into one unit in hindsight, instead of having the others go into his tanks and let the hormies do that. Flyrant Balethron did get to shoot 1x which was nice ignoring the invuls, but afterward both Plaguebeare units were always in combat. He took out his tanks/big guys. Ended up winning 14-6, again mainly due to board control and good secondaries. RECON IS GOLD with Rippers, and headhunter. Again only 3 turns, complete as he too was having to look up unit stats, and was a bit slow in rolling. Great guy though, nicely painted army. He offered to concede at the end of the game, like with time at 1 minute to give me the points since he wasn't going to play day 2. I said thanks but not thanks, he still had at least half his army on the board and honestly, if the game went to 6 turns he might have won, as the plaguebearer hordes. I think he felt kind of bad for being slow but I didn't feel it would be honorable to game the system like that.
Game 3: vs GSC/Kronos/AM
Spoiler:
Game 3: vs GSC/Kronos/AMThis was my favorite game despite being "blue on blue" which I normally hate. Before the game, the TO said I had 2 flags for "incomplete games since I didn't make it to turn 4, not a penalty or anything, but just something to be aware of. I wasn't even aware this was a thing, and was a bit frustrated as I didn't feel it was my fault. Anyway, Deployment was the diagonal one. Again got first turn and got both units of GS to charge T1. Periled again, this time with Flyrant lol. This game went much faster since we basically knew each other armies ( i am familiar with guard, and somewhat with Cult, he just had to explain the difference).
On his first turn we were Bull gaking and have a good time and he got to psychic phase and forgot his DS ambush. I let him have it (though regretted it), but despite my 2 wins I knew I wasn't in the running for placements since I had low points and their was a Drukhari guy at 80 already. He ambushed them and charge my Hiveguard. He killed them and then locked up my carnifex and termies (and preceded to do this all they way to T6 when my carnifex finally killed the last GS.) it was annoying b/c he parked his character on my objective (where the HG were and was getting the Bonus point each turn for holding both. This won him the game. As I was tearing up his backline on his side, though he held his objective (he had IG morrtars, neophytes, 10 HG, 3 Neuro, one with Sould Hunger,) which I failed like 4x on and kept getting mortal wounds. Sadly I never got to do this trick as My Neuro was baby sitting my gunline in the back( actually had a bit of an issue with synapse coverage at times with Carnifex). My Swarmlord and Malantrhope died to his 2nd ambush but manage to kill almost all the GS. The Ambush was hitting on 2's with S5, yuk. In the end, the game went all 6 rounds, he tabled me. Great game. Lost 35-16.
Game 4 vs Custodes soup
Spoiler:
Game 4 vs Custodes soup: Standing at 28, solid middle of pack, we had some people drop. End up playing Custodes, Sisters, Assassins Soup. Celsistine, the Piano Organ Rhino thing, 3 units of 3 bikes, 1 custodes shield cpt, 2 pysker assasins, 1 assassin that ignores invuls, some sister troops I had a plan for this list and prepared so I had an idea what to do. Deployment was Dawn of war, he use to play nids back in 5th, so he was vaguely familiar with everything, he deployed back edge. I again got T1. I only got 1 unit of GS in T1 as I rolled a 2 on both of my advances, for both units so I Had to use Opportunistic Advance AND Hive Commander on the same unit to get them into charge.
Had to call TO about a rule on charges, as he didn't think I could leave models and daisy chain them, leaving a few models behind to stay near his objective. Also since he had fly he wanted to consolidate over me, I said thats fine, but he was base to base with a model so he had to still remain base to base to the closest model so essentially he had to rotate. Again he was trying to do this to get within his objective but was unable to do so. Neither of us where upset or mean about it or anything (just again, pointing out that you need to know your rules, or when in doubt just ask a TO.) During other games I was able to Hive Commander 1 units, and opportunistic advance the other to get both in. Also peril again on 12, this time with SL again. HG killed Rhino T1. Managed to get GS into unit of bikes and take his priority objective.
I messed up and picked bad secondaries this game. Recon, Headhunter (mistake), and Behind Enemy Lines, Also a mistake. His list had like 7 characters, but they are all durable. Over course of game I killed 1 assassin, 1 unit of bikes and his shield captain (warlord) final round which means Old School would have been a better choice. Also, forgot my DS on my rippers T2, so I lost out on recon. He forgot his DS T2 as well though so it was all good. Swarmlord and GS and Malanthrope Fought Celestine and his Shield Captain. I killed her T3, she came back though boo. Game went 4 turns, he had solid board control with the bikes and I needed more HG to kill them. I lost, score was like 25-8.
Game 5 vs Asra Militarum Cadians[
Spoiler:
Game 5 vs Asra Militarum Cadians: Going in at 2-2 ending up getting matched against pure Cadian list. Shadowsword, Vulture, 1 tank commander, pask, 4x inf sq, basilisk, 5 characters, cmd squad. Deployment was the one with the 9" circle i the middle (forget the name). I have been reading up on guard and experiment with list, and this was very similar to a list i had considered building. He deployed up close again, not sure why. We picked secondaries, and like an idiot i picked reaper as he had 4 squads of infantry, only after the game had started did he point out that they were not eligible for reaper, since the HW team was 2 wounds, but 1 model, dropping them all to 9. I reread the rule, and sure enough it was 10 models, I called TO just to check and he ruled in his favor. DAMNIT, oh well, I still wasn't too concerned I figured I could beat him on 2 secondaries (headhunter, and recon, should have picked big game hunter instead).
He did preliminary bombardment, didn't get anything out of it. Again got first turn, again got both GS on T1 charges, again periled, this time with SL. HG got pask to 1 wound, other leman took a few from flyrnat and dakkafex. GS killed 3 squads of infantry and command sq, and wounded a character. I tied up his tanks, as they were lose enough to pile in to. His turn, he fell back, only getting to shoot with 1 leman, the basilisk killed 2 HG, Vulture killed about 10 hormies. He cast nightshroud on an undamaged Leman. I could tell he was a bit agitated at this point as I was in his tanks already and he had little damage. He rolled slow, shaking each dice about 3-5 seconds before rolling, taking time on grouping them etc... I didn't say anything but questioned if he was intentionally slow playing me.
He then shot the shadowsword and tried to use Cadian doctrine on it. I pointed out on his list it is inn a Super Heavy Aux Detachment so he didn't get the doctrine but could use stratagems, he disagreed, I asked him to show me the rule, to which he realized he was wrong. Keep in mind this guy 2-2 and around same points as me, we are on game 5, I wonder how many times he had done this to other opponents not realizing. Shadowsword put some wounds on flyrant and carnifex but nothing deadly. He then went YOLO with his Characters and charged my GS. After he fought with 1 I thought about interrupting but didn't. I killed 3 characters in the fight, did feeder tendrils got a CP back (bring me to 7), at this point he was down to like 2.
He then questioned how many CP I had spend, and I had to go back and recount all my CP and prove it was accurate taking extra time. Then he tried to give not 2, but 3 orders to the same unit and then use laurels to combo it onto another unit thus giving both 2. I pointed out he can only give 1 order to a unit, he looked it up and discovered I was right, and even though he did bring it down first, I told him he can pick whichever of the 3 he wanted, he choose 1st rank fire, 2nd rank fire. He again seemed annoyed that apparently I knew his codex better than him.
Next up on my turn 2 I get my GS within an inch of his objective and mortars and basilisk. Swrmy and GS #2 get within an inch of the Leman, pask, and shadowsword. Hormies move in to lock in shadowsword from the flank. I DS rippers behind table quarters for RECON. Then he tries to tell me smite 1st attempt goes off on a 7... and he is a character less than 10 wounds. First of all, he is the closest model, 2nd thats only shooting, 3rd smite targets closest model anyway, finally I just hand him my card. His guy dies. Then in shooting I shoot HG at tank, hit with all 12 shots, roll three 3. Tank dies, then explodes killing pask, nearby and 1 GS, then puts pask explodes putting 3 wounds on shadowsword. As he picks up the model he sees the nightshroud card under the tank (which I could't see from where I was standing). Ask me if I did the -1, I said no, as I wasn't aware (honestly didnt see it). I said I only rolled 3 3's on my hit rolls and still would have put out 9*2 (18 damage and killed the tank anyway or offered to redo the reroll and put pask back) Even if I didn't kill them on the reroll I was confident GS, Swarmy and Hormies would finish them off. He rolled his eyes said forget it, rage quite and said the game was no longer fun. Said I was questioning him on all his rules. To which I said, rightly so, as every ruling I questioned him on I was correct on, excluding the fact that he didnt say his units qualified for reaper until after the fact. Again we are middle of the pact, not going to place, just be sporting about it. I pointed out to most opponents, I have 6 reaper point available in my list, and 4 characters.
Called TO over, had him tally me up with a secede and he was surprised. With the way things were going, he would have been table by T3 (maybe his Vulture would have been zipping around, but then I would have had to point out if only fliers remain at the end of the round you are considered "tabled".) Surely there would have been another rules debate.
This game could have been fun, but man he did not know the rules at all. And not sure if he was upset b/c I was calling him out on it and others weren't, because it was the last game of the day. Because he was getting pounded or what.
33-4 Victory
Overall Summary Thought: Still confirm that HG and GS are MVPs. Hormies didn't do much, probably will drop them, and take more GS. Carnifex/Flyrant didn't do much as well, mainly draw big gun support and mainly due to 18" range and me having to worry about synapse with gants. Never got to use Soul hunger. Gants & Gaunts mostly just died. SL was good some games, not used others (in terms of killing) but the Hive Commander is vital in all games. He only died 2x, in both my losses. Malanthrope did a bit of shrouding, only got his Prey Adaption off against he Custodes Soup list, but it was late game. I took him for T1 survivalibilty and managed to get first turn EVERY GAME, so may not be the best judge of points. Probably would drop the Carnifex and Hormies, maybe change the termies to pure Fleshborers. Take another units of GS, more hiveguard, another Neuro , maybe warriors with VC to get a bit more Anit tank. Flyrant might take miasma cannon next time. Soul Hunger was a waste, probably would have been better off with the +6" to synaspe range.
The other nid list one guy had GS, 12 hive guard, venomthropes, walkrant, swarmy, and termies. Another guy did a 6x carnifex list but mixed melee and shooty, best to go all melee or all shooty. If you want both, take a unit of screamer killers for melee, and a second unit of all dakkafex. The two GSC soup list relied on the ambush rule, mortars, and smite spam and placed well (both above me, 1 guy got 2nd).
Drukhari are very powerful, top table was Drukhari/Orks right next to me, and after my drama I watched them. Venom spam is gonna get nerfed. Points are way to cheap. This guy wiped 180 boys, had 45 gretchin as well. Crazy.
Thanks for the report. I can't get enough Tyranid competitive content so I'm eager to see other people do the same. This was great.
That sideword from the judge is the WRONG way for them to handle it. Judge or not I would have reacted extremely snappily to that remark, considering the first game was against a brand new player and the second was against his brother playing Nurgle no less an unfamiliar with his army. Sheesh.
Don't regret allowing a first turn mistake from your opponent, especially if it was cause you guys were having a good time. As InControl said, you gotta let the first one go, but let em know that you won't be okay'ing the next one, otherwise you're "that guy". You didn't allow him to do anything his army couldn't already, so your only takeaway from that loss should be how to adapt your list or tactics. Could better screening have saved you from losing that HG unit off the bat?
Your final opponent sounds like a real.... jerk, and I'm glad you stood up for yourself when he threw a bitchfit. Ive resolved not to stand for that sort of blatantly hypocritical and anti-competitive behavior, it doesn't have a place in tourney.
As for your list, I like the Kraken detachment. I looked at the Kronos one and felt it might not have the cohesion with the rest of your list to be as impactful as you might have hoped, seems you found that yourself.
The judge just said it more of as an FYI, it didn't have any impact on rankings, points or anything, and with ITC at that point there was no way I was going to get top table unless the Drukhari just got table with 0 points. It didn't bnther me as we went full 6 turns. The DS on the Cult he just said he forgot to do it, then I offered to let him, since he had only cast 1 power. Last guy just needed to read the rules and his codex a bit more.
Yeah the Kronos HG did well. I was having positioning issues with the flyants and carnifex as they had to move aruond a flank b/c of 2 large LoS blocking ruins in the middle. The gants mostly bubble wrapped. Probably just take Fleshborers purely next time for bubble wrap.
The issue with the Hormagaunts wasn't getting them in, it was survivablity. I could only get 2 units in and GS do more attacks, damage, and survivablity than hormagants. Their honestly was too many instances where having a 6" pile in and consolidate would have been a game changer. Maybe if you went pure Hormies, but then you can only get 1 on a T1 charge and that requires Onslaught going off. They did make for a good wave 2 follow up and drew a lot of fire power as people took Reaper. Normally tried to leave them in ruins for cover and daisy chain to malanthrope for minus 1 to hit, made them a bit more survivable.
lindsay40k wrote: Hmm, how are Behemoth Hormagaunts? I had a good result with a large multi-charge that got loads into 1” then trampled out some MW.
Self-sufficient in CP as they’re a fifth of a Battalion, no need for overcosted hormie upgrades, and adds to the threat perception thereby improving their ability to be an anti-horde fire magnet...
Behemoth is not a bad trait at all for Hormies- you want them in combat anyway. Plus the Behemoth relic isn’t too bad either if you’re running something that can use it.
I feel like I'm on a good place balancing anti-tank and anti-infantry shooting. I deny a lot of ITC objectives, but am not great at getting the non-kill x unit ones. I only have one game of practice with the list.
Jorgm. or Kronos warlord? Both traits are useful but super situational. Jorgm. lets me hide him off the board, but that isn't a huge advantage.
Relic: all that I can see taking is the Norn Crown. Am I missing anything that might be useful?
Are there any matchups I should watch out for? I'm worried about Knights. Other than that I feel like I don't have a lot of truly bad matchups.
I feel like I'm on a good place balancing anti-tank and anti-infantry shooting. I deny a lot of ITC objectives, but am not great at getting the non-kill x unit ones. I only have one game of practice with the list.
Jorgm. or Kronos warlord? Both traits are useful but super situational. Jorgm. lets me hide him off the board, but that isn't a huge advantage.
Relic: all that I can see taking is the Norn Crown. Am I missing anything that might be useful?
Are there any matchups I should watch out for? I'm worried about Knights. Other than that I feel like I don't have a lot of truly bad matchups.
Thoughts or advice is welcome!
Not a bad list! But when I look at it I ask "How the heck is he handling CC?" I don't know your meta, but I don't see how you don't have "issues" with infilitrating foes, Like Raven Guuard, or Alpha Legion. I'd at the least want to bubble wrap all of my gun bugs.
I'm figuring you DS the Shock Guard, and castle up the rest...depending on the Table...so I also see problems grabbing Maesltrom points. Good luck! And good hunting!
I had a 1500 tournament yesterday, came in second with my nids using a modified list from what won me 2 previous tourneys. They’re generally combination killpoints/objective points games, so I built my list accordingly.
General idea is to hug the -1 aura at the start to stop gunlines misting me, then deepstriking and moving a bunch of fast stuff across the field to control the board turn 1 while artillery sits back in safety. The psychic stuff does its job and weathers a bunch of fire, spore mines clog the field and eat up shots, and the rest runs in and insures nothing the enemy has is shooting me to death.
I fought primarily slow moving gunlines with a few fast elements, which generally inflicted nasty casualties on me over the course of a match but not enough to overcome early game leads. MVPs were the maleceptor and zoanthropes, which soaked up huge amounts of firepower, denied psychic powers, and took out the tougher units like knights and Custodes handily.
Generally the Kraken double advance strat on the genestealers, double movement on the maleceptor, then Onslaught on the tyrant after he advances. Maleceptor doesn’t need to assault, he’s not that great at it actually. Just want him right in their face to blow a bunch of stuff up with either the aura or smite/psychic scream, then soak up all the panic shots.
That gets 3 units in their face turn 1, plus sporocysts nearby pumping out spore mines. Zoanthropes and termagants take the midfield and the Biovores and hiveguard hold the back.
Badablack wrote: Generally the Kraken double advance strat on the genestealers, double movement on the maleceptor, then Onslaught on the tyrant after he advances. Maleceptor doesn’t need to assault, he’s not that great at it actually. Just want him right in their face to blow a bunch of stuff up with either the aura or smite/psychic scream, then soak up all the panic shots.
That gets 3 units in their face turn 1, plus sporocysts nearby pumping out spore mines. Zoanthropes and termagants take the midfield and the Biovores and hiveguard hold the back.
Nice. Do you still find Biovore are worth it at 50 points. That seems steep to me for a single mortal wound. Maybe 3 if I am lucky.
Biovores are 48” mortal wound shooters. That is incredibly useful, when they were 34 points that was criminally cheap. Especially in Tyranid armies where we have so little long range firepower. They give us cheap single model heavy support units that hold objectives while still being useful. I wouldn’t spam them though, 3 is the max you’d ever want generally.
And you can always nudge them slightly and stay out of IB range if you just wanna drop spores, which are themselves great. 3-6” range from the target means you can easily drop them on a unit, then scoot it back so you can snipe a character next turn if they don’t split off some fire to deal with it. Plus they block shots from hitting characters, soak up smites, force excessive wasted firepower to make sure they die, etc, they’re pretty great.
Badablack wrote: Generally the Kraken double advance strat on the genestealers, double movement on the maleceptor, then Onslaught on the tyrant after he advances. Maleceptor doesn’t need to assault, he’s not that great at it actually. Just want him right in their face to blow a bunch of stuff up with either the aura or smite/psychic scream, then soak up all the panic shots.
That gets 3 units in their face turn 1, plus sporocysts nearby pumping out spore mines. Zoanthropes and termagants take the midfield and the Biovores and hiveguard hold the back.
Nice. Do you still find Biovore are worth it at 50 points. That seems steep to me for a single mortal wound. Maybe 3 if I am lucky.
each one averages half a mortal wound I believe. 1.5 a turn for a full squad. I guess it's maybe worth it against high invul and defense things like I dunno custodes or something? I wonder if Hive Guard outdamage them therr
Badablack wrote: Generally the Kraken double advance strat on the genestealers, double movement on the maleceptor, then Onslaught on the tyrant after he advances. Maleceptor doesn’t need to assault, he’s not that great at it actually. Just want him right in their face to blow a bunch of stuff up with either the aura or smite/psychic scream, then soak up all the panic shots.
That gets 3 units in their face turn 1, plus sporocysts nearby pumping out spore mines. Zoanthropes and termagants take the midfield and the Biovores and hiveguard hold the back.
I admire the use of the Sporocysts and Maleceptor. I keep looking at the Maleceptor in particular and never really see it as being very dangerous, but I maybe I was just thinking about damage output and not the psychological factor. Got any more elaboration on that?
I feel like I'm on a good place balancing anti-tank and anti-infantry shooting. I deny a lot of ITC objectives, but am not great at getting the non-kill x unit ones. I only have one game of practice with the list.
Jorgm. or Kronos warlord? Both traits are useful but super situational. Jorgm. lets me hide him off the board, but that isn't a huge advantage.
Relic: all that I can see taking is the Norn Crown. Am I missing anything that might be useful?
Are there any matchups I should watch out for? I'm worried about Knights. Other than that I feel like I don't have a lot of truly bad matchups.
Thoughts or advice is welcome!
Not a bad list! But when I look at it I ask "How the heck is he handling CC?" I don't know your meta, but I don't see how you don't have "issues" with infilitrating foes, Like Raven Guuard, or Alpha Legion. I'd at the least want to bubble wrap all of my gun bugs.
I'm figuring you DS the Shock Guard, and castle up the rest...depending on the Table...so I also see problems grabbing Maesltrom points. Good luck! And good hunting!
In general I try to deal with CC by screening with the C-fexen and 'gaunts, then nuking them with the rest of the army. The acid T-fex can screen a flank by itself-nobody really wants to deal with its overwatch, and it is durable enough that it takes a heavy hitter to kill it. My big issue is getting better at spacing to prevent consolidate moves from tagging units I want to shoot. It's not a skill I learned playing Tyrants :(.
On Saturday my first game was against Tau. He brought two Tiger Sharks, three Fusion Commanders, and various Tau infantry (Fire Warriors, Stealth Suits). I reserved the Shock Guard, he seized initiative, and it went poorly for me. His first turn he killed everything except some Carnifexes and my Neurothropes. He was able to get line of sight to the Impaler Guard, which was my mistake. They were well hidden, but I was not ready for how far the Tiger Sharks can move, and gave him a hole to put them in. A wing tip saw a gun barrel, and that was all she wrote for those Hive Guard.
My first turn I was able to smite/shriek/Shock away one of the Tiger Sharks, and got a Fuision Commander with my remaining Carnifexes. After that it was a matter of trying to grab a few points before getting tabled on turn 3.
Game two was against Green Tide. He had three big squads of boys, one shooty, two punchy, a Warboss, some jet pack boys (I forget the name of the unit), the plasma cannons that do d6 shots, pain boys, weird boys, and a dakka jet. Mission was three objectives, one in each deployment zone, one in the middle.
I deployed everything except some Rippers, Fexes out front, 'gaunts and Raveners screening. He went first.
Turn 1 his shooting drained some wounds from C-fexes and a Exocrine, but didn't kill anything. He used Da Jump to bring the shooty boys after my Raveners, but did only 2 wounds shooting at them and failed the charge. He did get the jet pack boys in with a pair of C-fexes, and tagged the Shock Guard on consolidate.
On my turn I smote and punched the jet pack boys, One Exocrine popped the +1 damage and melted the Dakka Jet. The two C-fexes not in combat killed about half of the boys from each punchy squad. I tried to be clever with my other Exocrine and dividing the shooting between two guns, but only managed to leave them both close to dead. The Imp Guard double tapped the shooty boys. The Raveners shot the shooty boys and charged the jet pack boys.
Turn two was similar to turn 1, with him making some charges, then me shooting things to death. On my turn 3 he had half of his guns, a handlful of shooty boys in CC with a 5 wound Exocrine, a pain boy, and his warboss vs 2 C-fexes, the T-fex, both squads of H. Guard, and the Exocrines. It ended on time, with me winning as heavily as I had lost the first game.
At this point there had been a withdraw, and I had work that night, so I withdrew as well.
My thoughts/lessons learned.
I have the tools to deal with hordes, if I play carefully. I have the tools to deal with a superheavy. I don't have the tools to deal with several superheavies. I think I want more Shock Guard, but I don't have an obvious thing to give up for them. Maybe drop an Exocrine for them, turn the other Exocrine into an acid Fex?
I'm ok CP wise with one battalion. I would prefer two, but I don't need two.
Moving the acid fex isn't that bad. Even single shooting he hits hard, and has a huge board presence. Deep striking him would be super fun. I may mess around with some casual lists that pod a pair of them in.
Maleceptors aren’t very dangerous, for 172 points they average 4 mortal wounds with smite/scream, and if they assault they get off 1-2 hits if they’re lucky. It’s important to let your opponent know they have D6 damage melee weapons and can do 3 mortals on 6’s when they AOE, because that brings out ‘what if’ mode in opponents. What if they score a bunch of 6’s and murder everything and then do 18 damage to a tank with their melee? That will focus all the guns, especially if it’s an inch away from their lines and will assault next turn. And with a 4+ and 5+ FNP it will weather a significant amount of antitank that’s not hitting your tyrants and other more important bugs.
On Saturday my first game was against Tau. He brought two Tiger Sharks, three Fusion Commanders, and various Tau infantry (Fire Warriors, Stealth Suits). I reserved the Shock Guard, he seized initiative, and it went poorly for me. His first turn he killed everything except some Carnifexes and my Neurothropes. He was able to get line of sight to the Impaler Guard, which was my mistake. They were well hidden, but I was not ready for how far the Tiger Sharks can move, and gave him a hole to put them in. A wing tip saw a gun barrel, and that was all she wrote for those Hive Guard.
My first turn I was able to smite/shriek/Shock away one of the Tiger Sharks, and got a Fuision Commander with my remaining Carnifexes. After that it was a matter of trying to grab a few points before getting tabled on turn 3.
I was talking about this Tau list recently. Farsight Tigersharks? It's ridiculously strong, and probably the best way to play Tau at the moment, and the #1 Tau player in the ITC uses this build, Coldstars, Tigersharks, and Stealth Suits covered with Firewarriors, and just hits like truck. I'm not sure what we do about it but hiding Hive Guard isn't really an option unfortunately. Acid Spray Tyrannofex probably do well vs the Sharks if they don't have to move first, but a good general probably wont let that happen. Plus, the Coldstars.
On Saturday my first game was against Tau. He brought two Tiger Sharks, three Fusion Commanders, and various Tau infantry (Fire Warriors, Stealth Suits). I reserved the Shock Guard, he seized initiative, and it went poorly for me. His first turn he killed everything except some Carnifexes and my Neurothropes. He was able to get line of sight to the Impaler Guard, which was my mistake. They were well hidden, but I was not ready for how far the Tiger Sharks can move, and gave him a hole to put them in. A wing tip saw a gun barrel, and that was all she wrote for those Hive Guard.
My first turn I was able to smite/shriek/Shock away one of the Tiger Sharks, and got a Fuision Commander with my remaining Carnifexes. After that it was a matter of trying to grab a few points before getting tabled on turn 3.
I was talking about this Tau list recently. Farsight Tigersharks? It's ridiculously strong, and probably the best way to play Tau at the moment, and the #1 Tau player in the ITC uses this build, Coldstars, Tigersharks, and Stealth Suits covered with Firewarriors, and just hits like truck. I'm not sure what we do about it but hiding Hive Guard isn't really an option unfortunately. Acid Spray Tyrannofex probably do well vs the Sharks if they don't have to move first, but a good generally probably wont let that happen. Plus, the Coldstars.
It is rock solid and the guy I played knows how to run it. Acid-fexes will never get to shoot at Sharks. Rupture-fexes hit on 5's, even a pair of them don't do enough damage. Exocrines don't have the range to double tap first turn, get erased if you go second.
The only options I see are deep striking Hive Guard or deep striking Flyrants. I don't know the Tiger Shark well enough to run the numbers on the Tyrants, but 6 sets of devourer might do it.
The only options I see are deep striking Hive Guard or deep striking Flyrants. I don't know the Tiger Shark well enough to run the numbers on the Tyrants, but 6 sets of devourer might do it.
Yeah, that's what I suspected, no good general is letting Acidfexes touch their Tiggers with a full double volley. Similar story to Exocrines and because of the invul and T8, I'm not even sure that they would even hit harder than Dakkafex if they did. Tigersharks have 75" movespeed, they can deploy in the very corner so pretty much nothing is touching them first turn, I think Flyrants may not even always reach them turn 1, although I guess you can deepstrike them till after they move up (and shred the rest of your army :( ). Tigersharks have the defensive profile of a flying Tyrannofex with a 2 more wounds at an invul save. 3 Flyrants with Devourers? Heh, double that to 6 Flyrants (which obviously isn't even possible), all hitting at 3+, and you still are only doing a 1/3 of their health, not even enough to drop drop them a wounds profile. Not that it would make a significant difference if you did, since their BS only goes from 2+ to 3+, and their movespeed goes down to only 45 inches lol, you really gotta ace them.
I'm not sure what the answer is. Deepstriking a full unit of Jorm ShockGuard and hitting them with the doubletap strat, should do ~21 wounds to a Tiger nomatter where they move, and before they can wipe them out in response. That's enough damage to kill 1 tigershark making it probably our only real option here, with a few points of damage spread over to the other if it's in range and you're feeling confident on your rolls on the second wave of shooting.
Tigershark is the most underrated unit in the game right now imo, and at worse it's definitely something we probably want to take into account, even if its just accepting that we have to hold it.
As dangerous as the Tigershark is, GSC allies would actually be fantastic here. Mind control on the tigershark would be wonderful fun. Then, hit it with the Horror and Mass Hypnosis to make it -2 shooting while you try to take out the rest of the Tau army.
jifel wrote: As dangerous as the Tigershark is, GSC allies would actually be fantastic here. Mind control on the tigershark would be wonderful fun. Then, hit it with the Horror and Mass Hypnosis to make it -2 shooting while you try to take out the rest of the Tau army.
Yeah you can fizzle all it's Seekers too Tau isn't denying gak, and the Tiger has only 7 LD, and if you successfully cast thats a 90% chance of successfully mind controlling him, with no other modifiers. It's cute, but with the Sa'cea Ethereal that they probably should have, that drops down to a 60% chance until they move. Odd's probably improve with a CP re-roll. Or a Jorm relic turns it to a 75% chance. You can also Horror them for a 75% success rate under Ethereal, but the damage you do with it will be hitting a bit weaker, and you don't get to markerlight to help them as they do. That's just some numbers. Might be a good plan, certainly worth attempting if its already in your list.
Or, you know, just refuse to play against Forgeworld units.
I mean, why try to find solutions to units that are obviously broken beyond repair?
These days I always ask for a "no forgeworld" rule for casual games. I'll gladly accept the fact that I can't use my beloved Malanthrope then.
Of course, for tournaments it's a different matter, although I'm starting to see a "no forgeworld" trend there too.
If somebody asks me to not use FW stuff then I ask them to not use GW codex stuff. That's where the real broken stuff are.
Note: someone having a different opinion than your own does not equal being a crybaby.
Nobody is disputing there's some broken stuff in GW's codexes as well, but I still feel like FW has a lot more unbalanced units (in both ways, there are some severely overcosted FW units as well).
Or, you know, just refuse to play against Forgeworld units.
I mean, why try to find solutions to units that are obviously broken beyond repair?
These days I always ask for a "no forgeworld" rule for casual games. I'll gladly accept the fact that I can't use my beloved Malanthrope then.
Of course, for tournaments it's a different matter, although I'm starting to see a "no forgeworld" trend there too.
Ah the classic I don't like it so it must be banned argument. Theres undercosted/over powered units in GW books too. Look for ways to compete against them. Banned them is just building a crutch which will get pulled away when an event lets them in.
Anyways... let's assume for discussion that you are actually playing against your opponents army. There's nothing tactics related about not playing the game, so let's leave that conversation for somewhere else. Every ITC tournament here in the states allows FW, but I can't speak to different metas. In the USA though, the tigershark is definitely something that you have to be prepared for if you're facing a competitive tau player.
If somebody asks me to not use FW stuff then I ask them to not use GW codex stuff. That's where the real broken stuff are.
Note: someone having a different opinion than your own does not equal being a crybaby.
Nobody is disputing there's some broken stuff in GW's codexes as well, but I still feel like FW has a lot more unbalanced units (in both ways, there are some severely overcosted FW units as well).
But to each his own.
This is a tactics thread where we try to come up with ways to defeat units or builds. Saying 'just don't play forgeworld' is not helpful, thus you're going to get some chaf for it.
jifel wrote: Anyways... let's assume for discussion that you are actually playing against your opponents army. There's nothing tactics related about not playing the game, so let's leave that conversation for somewhere else. Every ITC tournament here in the states allows FW, but I can't speak to different metas. In the USA though, the tigershark is definitely something that you have to be prepared for if you're facing a competitive tau player.
Moving the conversation back to the actual subject of Tyranid Tactics.
I think that two sets of deep striking Shock Guard could do it. Shoot both at the first Tiger Shark, then double tap into the second one. If you have anything left on the table to plink with (hidden Impalers, smites, what have you) you might be able to finish it off. If he hides them in the backfield for three turns until you are forced to make a bad drop, well, that's three turns of not being tabled.
Mind control with an allied Magus is a good idea. A min Cult battalion is cheep, and brings useful objective grabbers.
I can't think of any IG battle brothers tools that will do it. Outflanking Shadowsword + min Cult + something Tyranid? Might work, but your not really playing Tyranids at that point.
Any of you guys got some ideas of how to spice up Rippers other than just buying the decent model from ForgeWorld (which I am considering)? Including conversions or posing or whatever? The base model is incredibly boring and bad
SHUPPET wrote: Any of you guys got some ideas of how to spice up Rippers other than just buying the decent model from ForgeWorld (which I am considering)? Including conversions or posing or whatever? The base model is incredibly boring and bad
Cut ‘em in half. Model them as coming up out of the ground, and/or burrowing down. It doubles the amount you get to boot. You can also model their base as little burrows using lotus seed pods.
SHUPPET wrote: Any of you guys got some ideas of how to spice up Rippers other than just buying the decent model from ForgeWorld (which I am considering)? Including conversions or posing or whatever? The base model is incredibly boring and bad
Use interesting terrain bits on the base and incorperate the rippers digging through hopping over ect... Add a dead enemy model and have a ripper chest bursting out lots of options.
SHUPPET wrote: Any of you guys got some ideas of how to spice up Rippers other than just buying the decent model from ForgeWorld (which I am considering)? Including conversions or posing or whatever? The base model is incredibly boring and bad
Cool bases
Eating Corpses and lots of blood
Burrowing up from the ground
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jifel wrote: Anyways... let's assume for discussion that you are actually playing against your opponents army. There's nothing tactics related about not playing the game, so let's leave that conversation for somewhere else. Every ITC tournament here in the states allows FW, but I can't speak to different metas. In the USA though, the tigershark is definitely something that you have to be prepared for if you're facing a competitive tau player.
Best bet would be Single Minded Annihilation on Kronos Impaler Hive Guard. If you have Venom cannons shoot those at it as well. Smite it. Then charge it with a flyrant with MRC or Flyrant with Reaper of Obliterax. Try and degrade it T1 at least. Then throw the horror on it. Use Venom or Malanthrope to shield you good units. Charge iwth gargoyle and get a wound with blinding venom. Now it is basically either BS 2+ or 3+ depending on degrading. -1 for horror, -1 for venomthrope/malanthrope (if applicable), another -1 for gargoyle, if you take GSC you can do another -1. Just make the unit ineffective at shooting. Even if you only get 2 out of 4 of those you are making it hit on 4 or 5', and possibly 6's.
SHUPPET wrote: Any of you guys got some ideas of how to spice up Rippers other than just buying the decent model from ForgeWorld (which I am considering)? Including conversions or posing or whatever? The base model is incredibly boring and bad
Cool bases
Eating Corpses and lots of blood
Burrowing up from the ground
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jifel wrote: Anyways... let's assume for discussion that you are actually playing against your opponents army. There's nothing tactics related about not playing the game, so let's leave that conversation for somewhere else. Every ITC tournament here in the states allows FW, but I can't speak to different metas. In the USA though, the tigershark is definitely something that you have to be prepared for if you're facing a competitive tau player.
Best bet would be Single Minded Annihilation on Kronos Impaler Hive Guard. If you have Venom cannons shoot those at it as well. Smite it. Then charge it with a flyrant with MRC or Flyrant with Reaper of Obliterax. Try and degrade it T1 at least. Then throw the horror on it. Use Venom or Malanthrope to shield you good units. Charge iwth gargoyle and get a wound with blinding venom. Now it is basically either BS 2+ or 3+ depending on degrading. -1 for horror, -1 for venomthrope/malanthrope (if applicable), another -1 for gargoyle, if you take GSC you can do another -1. Just make the unit ineffective at shooting. Even if you only get 2 out of 4 of those you are making it hit on 4 or 5', and possibly 6's.
That's a lot of different, disjointed pieces to try to build a list out of, and if it all works, still leaves you with one Tiger Shark untouched. I'm not saying it won't work, i'm saying putting all those parts into a list that is coherent and does well against a range of list is going to be a challenge.
SHUPPET wrote: Any of you guys got some ideas of how to spice up Rippers other than just buying the decent model from ForgeWorld (which I am considering)? Including conversions or posing or whatever? The base model is incredibly boring and bad
Cool bases Eating Corpses and lots of blood Burrowing up from the ground
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jifel wrote: Anyways... let's assume for discussion that you are actually playing against your opponents army. There's nothing tactics related about not playing the game, so let's leave that conversation for somewhere else. Every ITC tournament here in the states allows FW, but I can't speak to different metas. In the USA though, the tigershark is definitely something that you have to be prepared for if you're facing a competitive tau player.
Best bet would be Single Minded Annihilation on Kronos Impaler Hive Guard. If you have Venom cannons shoot those at it as well. Smite it. Then charge it with a flyrant with MRC or Flyrant with Reaper of Obliterax. Try and degrade it T1 at least. Then throw the horror on it. Use Venom or Malanthrope to shield you good units. Charge iwth gargoyle and get a wound with blinding venom. Now it is basically either BS 2+ or 3+ depending on degrading. -1 for horror, -1 for venomthrope/malanthrope (if applicable), another -1 for gargoyle, if you take GSC you can do another -1. Just make the unit ineffective at shooting. Even if you only get 2 out of 4 of those you are making it hit on 4 or 5', and possibly 6's.
That's a lot of different, disjointed pieces to try to build a list out of, and if it all works, still leaves you with one Tiger Shark untouched. I'm not saying it won't work, i'm saying putting all those parts into a list that is coherent and does well against a range of list is going to be a challenge.
Absolutely. Mind Control Magus seems the least restrictive inclusion there I will say. But a good player should be able to screen you out I think, especially with only 12" range, and the fact they can deploy in the very corner of the field (or almost anywhere they like vs Nids really)
Just got back from my first tournament and thanks to a lot of advice from here I'm pretty happy with the results. We played 1000 points on 4'x4' tables and had 20 players.
I faced Necron Destroyer spam (12 Destroyers!) first and wound up tabling my opponent on turn 5 of 6. I did not play to missions very well here because I'm used to just play games without mission rules.
I faced Death Guard with Typhus, Daemon Prince, tons of Cultists and walkers, 2 Biologus Putrifier, and Predator next. I royally screwed the pooch on this one. He admitted before the game there was no way he should win this one. Turns out because I raced to get in to close combat fast he annihilated me. I should have stood and shot and made him come to me.
I faced Imperial Knights last and this was one I was afraid of all day because they were significantly present. It was a pretty close game but I wound up tabling him on turn 5. He ran one big Knight and three Helverin. The big guy just couldn't chew through Tyrants. He was my first opponent to really recognize the Tyrannofex as a huge threat on such a small table though.
Overall I went 2-1 and placed 9/20. I appreciate all the help figuring out what units were solid here.
stalkerzero wrote: I royally screwed the pooch on this one. He admitted before the game there was no way he should win this one. Turns out because I raced to get in to close combat fast he annihilated me. I should have stood and shot and made him come to me.
I wouldn't put too much heed to these sort of statements, people often downplay like this even if unintentionally.
IDK, CSM are one of my armies and if I had only a Predator to return fire against Venom and Miasma with a sprayfex as well, I’d be feeling both outgunned and also anxious about closing the gap. Recognising when your strong-in-melee army has the ranged advantage and leveraging that is important - I’ve had games where my Berzerkers keep their Rhinos parked, and let the enemy hordes and transports do the leg work whilst a single squad of Havocs dominates the shooting phase.
Nice list, @stalkerzero, looks like you built it well for the environment. Good work facing down the IK gatekeeper
I did post in the tactics thread but have had no takers so I thought I would come to the Oracle.
I am arranging a game against one of the staff at my local GW store, we want to recreate the game of lore where Necrons and BA fight against Tyrannids.
However, I know nothing about Tyrannids. Can anyone give any sort of heads up about what kind of thing Tyrannids will bring to the table? I don't want anything to be OP so if there is anything Necrons/BA should really avoid taking in the interest of a good game would be great (e.g. Pylons, multiple DDA's or Capt Slams).
I did post in the tactics thread but have had no takers so I thought I would come to the Oracle.
I am arranging a game against one of the staff at my local GW store, we want to recreate the game of lore where Necrons and BA fight against Tyrannids.
However, I know nothing about Tyrannids. Can anyone give any sort of heads up about what kind of thing Tyrannids will bring to the table? I don't want anything to be OP so if there is anything Necrons/BA should really avoid taking in the interest of a good game would be great (e.g. Pylons, multiple DDA's or Capt Slams).
Cheers in advance!
I don't think Tyranids has anything CRAZY op that you can just stumble on. Don't fill the board up with Flying Hive Tyrants and you should be fine. Half the dex is kinda undertuned so it's likely you'll end up balancing yourself out no matter what you take.
The story goes that BA and Necrons were slugging it out when the Tyrannids rocked up, the BA and Necrons came to a decision that they should both concentrate on killing the Tyrannids so had a "semi alliance" is you can call it that.
I will be playing the BA, my son will be bringing the Necrons, GW staffer will be playing the Tyrannids.
Automatically Appended Next Post: here is a famous image that records the situation at the end of the battle :
SHUPPET wrote: Any of you guys got some ideas of how to spice up Rippers other than just buying the decent model from ForgeWorld (which I am considering)? Including conversions or posing or whatever? The base model is incredibly boring and bad
Cool bases
Eating Corpses and lots of blood
Burrowing up from the ground
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jifel wrote: Anyways... let's assume for discussion that you are actually playing against your opponents army. There's nothing tactics related about not playing the game, so let's leave that conversation for somewhere else. Every ITC tournament here in the states allows FW, but I can't speak to different metas. In the USA though, the tigershark is definitely something that you have to be prepared for if you're facing a competitive tau player.
Best bet would be Single Minded Annihilation on Kronos Impaler Hive Guard. If you have Venom cannons shoot those at it as well. Smite it. Then charge it with a flyrant with MRC or Flyrant with Reaper of Obliterax. Try and degrade it T1 at least. Then throw the horror on it. Use Venom or Malanthrope to shield you good units. Charge iwth gargoyle and get a wound with blinding venom. Now it is basically either BS 2+ or 3+ depending on degrading. -1 for horror, -1 for venomthrope/malanthrope (if applicable), another -1 for gargoyle, if you take GSC you can do another -1. Just make the unit ineffective at shooting. Even if you only get 2 out of 4 of those you are making it hit on 4 or 5', and possibly 6's.
That's a lot of different, disjointed pieces to try to build a list out of, and if it all works, still leaves you with one Tiger Shark untouched. I'm not saying it won't work, i'm saying putting all those parts into a list that is coherent and does well against a range of list is going to be a challenge.
Almost every tyranid list that is going to a Major GT in ITC format will have Flyrants, smite, -1 shrouding (Mal, Venom, Sporecist, Horror), and hive guard. Gargoyles I have yet to see. Its not really that difficult.
I did post in the tactics thread but have had no takers so I thought I would come to the Oracle.
I am arranging a game against one of the staff at my local GW store, we want to recreate the game of lore where Necrons and BA fight against Tyrannids.
However, I know nothing about Tyrannids. Can anyone give any sort of heads up about what kind of thing Tyrannids will bring to the table? I don't want anything to be OP so if there is anything Necrons/BA should really avoid taking in the interest of a good game would be great (e.g. Pylons, multiple DDA's or Capt Slams).
Cheers in advance!
I don’t think there’s anything you need to worry about bringing, except maybe the Pylons. Tyranids have a fairly strong codex with a variety of valid choices. They should hold their own fairly well with whatever you bring.
Hi guys, I'm looking to start a tyranid force in he near future and so I've been doing a lot of reading and some list building. Just looking for some input from the group and opinions etc.
I'm 100% going to start with a start collecting box (me and friend doing an escalation league type thing starting with the start collecting boxes) and I've always loved genestealers so wanted to build my army around those ideally.
The list below is my eventual aim at 2k points, gotta have a long term goal in mind right:-) the basic premise is:
Stealers and Broodlord sprint up the board and aim for first turn charge.
Hive tyrant mid board support and helping stealers where needed.
20x devgaunts tunnel with trygon and pop up to make use of the shoot twice stratagem.
Exocrines and hive guards as back line artillery, with psychic support from Neurothrope, screened by the 10 gaunts and a -1 to hit from Venomthropes.
Ripper swarms just objective grabbers.
garetheves wrote: Hi guys, I'm looking to start a tyranid force in he near future and so I've been doing a lot of reading and some list building. Just looking for some input from the group and opinions etc.
Spoiler:
I'm 100% going to start with a start collecting box (me and friend doing an escalation league type thing starting with the start collecting boxes) and I've always loved genestealers so wanted to build my army around those ideally.
The list below is my eventual aim at 2k points, gotta have a long term goal in mind right:-) the basic premise is:
Stealers and Broodlord sprint up the board and aim for first turn charge.
Hive tyrant mid board support and helping stealers where needed.
20x devgaunts tunnel with trygon and pop up to make use of the shoot twice stratagem.
Exocrines and hive guards as back line artillery, with psychic support from Neurothrope, screened by the 10 gaunts and a -1 to hit from Venomthropes.
Ripper swarms just objective grabbers.
If you have the points you might try taking the Hive Guard broke up to 5-6 models; to make it another target for your Single-Minded Annihilation stratagem. Also consider swapping out the Neurothrope and Venomthropes for a Malanthrope if you don’t mind ForgeWorld. Hens immune to the DW tyranid stratagem, and is still a character making him a bit harder to kill. Plus he affects Monsters without needing 3 models, albeit with a smaller range.
garetheves wrote: Hi guys, I'm looking to start a tyranid force in he near future and so I've been doing a lot of reading and some list building. Just looking for some input from the group and opinions etc.
Spoiler:
I'm 100% going to start with a start collecting box (me and friend doing an escalation league type thing starting with the start collecting boxes) and I've always loved genestealers so wanted to build my army around those ideally.
The list below is my eventual aim at 2k points, gotta have a long term goal in mind right:-) the basic premise is:
Stealers and Broodlord sprint up the board and aim for first turn charge.
Hive tyrant mid board support and helping stealers where needed.
20x devgaunts tunnel with trygon and pop up to make use of the shoot twice stratagem.
Exocrines and hive guards as back line artillery, with psychic support from Neurothrope, screened by the 10 gaunts and a -1 to hit from Venomthropes.
Ripper swarms just objective grabbers.
If you have the points you might try taking the Hive Guard broke up to 5-6 models; to make it another target for your Single-Minded Annihilation stratagem. Also consider swapping out the Neurothrope and Venomthropes for a Malanthrope if you don’t mind ForgeWorld. Hens immune to the DW tyranid stratagem, and is still a character making him a bit harder to kill. Plus he affects Monsters without needing 3 models, albeit with a smaller range.
Yeah i did consider the Malanthrope but when i read the rules on it i was a little underwhelmed if im honest, unless im just reading it wrong, hence why i swapped for the venoms. Figured the extra range would be beneficial, but youre right about being harder to kill etc. Suppose the Venoms could just get taken out easily, and once 1 dies the exocrines are no longer protected.
In terms of the Hive Guard do you mean take 1 unit of 5-6 models as opposed to 3, or 2 units of 3 models? can only use the strategem once per round anyway so multiple units wouldnt benefit from that, but yes a larger unit would benefit more i guess. In a 2k list i wouldnt have the points unless i dropped something (1 exocrine or screening gaunts?) maybe drop some stealers?
garetheves wrote: Hi guys, I'm looking to start a tyranid force in he near future and so I've been doing a lot of reading and some list building. Just looking for some input from the group and opinions etc.
Spoiler:
I'm 100% going to start with a start collecting box (me and friend doing an escalation league type thing starting with the start collecting boxes) and I've always loved genestealers so wanted to build my army around those ideally.
The list below is my eventual aim at 2k points, gotta have a long term goal in mind right:-) the basic premise is:
Stealers and Broodlord sprint up the board and aim for first turn charge.
Hive tyrant mid board support and helping stealers where needed.
20x devgaunts tunnel with trygon and pop up to make use of the shoot twice stratagem.
Exocrines and hive guards as back line artillery, with psychic support from Neurothrope, screened by the 10 gaunts and a -1 to hit from Venomthropes.
Ripper swarms just objective grabbers.
If you have the points you might try taking the Hive Guard broke up to 5-6 models; to make it another target for your Single-Minded Annihilation stratagem. Also consider swapping out the Neurothrope and Venomthropes for a Malanthrope if you don’t mind ForgeWorld. Hens immune to the DW tyranid stratagem, and is still a character making him a bit harder to kill. Plus he affects Monsters without needing 3 models, albeit with a smaller range.
Yeah i did consider the Malanthrope but when i read the rules on it i was a little underwhelmed if im honest, unless im just reading it wrong, hence why i swapped for the venoms. Figured the extra range would be beneficial, but youre right about being harder to kill etc. Suppose the Venoms could just get taken out easily, and once 1 dies the exocrines are no longer protected.
In terms of the Hive Guard do you mean take 1 unit of 5-6 models as opposed to 3, or 2 units of 3 models? can only use the strategem once per round anyway so multiple units wouldnt benefit from that, but yes a larger unit would benefit more i guess. In a 2k list i wouldnt have the points unless i dropped something (1 exocrine or screening gaunts?) maybe drop some stealers?
One brood of 5-6, or whatever you could squeeze in. You only use it once per turn, but it would give you the option if you lost the Termagant brood or if you really need the high strength and AP to take something out. The smaller bubble of the Malanthropeis a trade off to save you about 50 point- that’s a 4th Hive Guard. Removing the 10 man Termagant brood almost brings you up to a 5th. The loss of the screening unit is a concern of course. You could consider dropping a few Genestealers to fill out your Devourer-Gants up to 30 models and the last one or two Hive Guard.
garetheves wrote: Hi guys, I'm looking to start a tyranid force in he near future and so I've been doing a lot of reading and some list building. Just looking for some input from the group and opinions etc.
Spoiler:
I'm 100% going to start with a start collecting box (me and friend doing an escalation league type thing starting with the start collecting boxes) and I've always loved genestealers so wanted to build my army around those ideally.
The list below is my eventual aim at 2k points, gotta have a long term goal in mind right:-) the basic premise is:
Stealers and Broodlord sprint up the board and aim for first turn charge.
Hive tyrant mid board support and helping stealers where needed.
20x devgaunts tunnel with trygon and pop up to make use of the shoot twice stratagem.
Exocrines and hive guards as back line artillery, with psychic support from Neurothrope, screened by the 10 gaunts and a -1 to hit from Venomthropes.
Ripper swarms just objective grabbers.
If you have the points you might try taking the Hive Guard broke up to 5-6 models; to make it another target for your Single-Minded Annihilation stratagem. Also consider swapping out the Neurothrope and Venomthropes for a Malanthrope if you don’t mind ForgeWorld. Hens immune to the DW tyranid stratagem, and is still a character making him a bit harder to kill. Plus he affects Monsters without needing 3 models, albeit with a smaller range.
Yeah i did consider the Malanthrope but when i read the rules on it i was a little underwhelmed if im honest, unless im just reading it wrong, hence why i swapped for the venoms. Figured the extra range would be beneficial, but youre right about being harder to kill etc. Suppose the Venoms could just get taken out easily, and once 1 dies the exocrines are no longer protected.
In terms of the Hive Guard do you mean take 1 unit of 5-6 models as opposed to 3, or 2 units of 3 models? can only use the strategem once per round anyway so multiple units wouldnt benefit from that, but yes a larger unit would benefit more i guess. In a 2k list i wouldnt have the points unless i dropped something (1 exocrine or screening gaunts?) maybe drop some stealers?
One brood of 5-6, or whatever you could squeeze in. You only use it once per turn, but it would give you the option if you lost the Termagant brood or if you really need the high strength and AP to take something out. The smaller bubble of the Malanthropeis a trade off to save you about 50 point- that’s a 4th Hive Guard. Removing the 10 man Termagant brood almost brings you up to a 5th. The loss of the screening unit is a concern of course. You could consider dropping a few Genestealers to fill out your Devourer-Gants up to 30 models and the last one or two Hive Guard.
Ill have another look at the malenthrope then, cheers for your input
jifel wrote: Anyways... let's assume for discussion that you are actually playing against your opponents army. There's nothing tactics related about not playing the game, so let's leave that conversation for somewhere else. Every ITC tournament here in the states allows FW, but I can't speak to different metas. In the USA though, the tigershark is definitely something that you have to be prepared for if you're facing a competitive tau player.
Best bet would be Single Minded Annihilation on Kronos Impaler Hive Guard. If you have Venom cannons shoot those at it as well. Smite it. Then charge it with a flyrant with MRC or Flyrant with Reaper of Obliterax. Try and degrade it T1 at least. Then throw the horror on it. Use Venom or Malanthrope to shield you good units. Charge iwth gargoyle and get a wound with blinding venom. Now it is basically either BS 2+ or 3+ depending on degrading. -1 for horror, -1 for venomthrope/malanthrope (if applicable), another -1 for gargoyle, if you take GSC you can do another -1. Just make the unit ineffective at shooting. Even if you only get 2 out of 4 of those you are making it hit on 4 or 5', and possibly 6's.
That's a lot of different, disjointed pieces to try to build a list out of, and if it all works, still leaves you with one Tiger Shark untouched. I'm not saying it won't work, i'm saying putting all those parts into a list that is coherent and does well against a range of list is going to be a challenge.
Almost every tyranid list that is going to a Major GT in ITC format will have Flyrants, smite, -1 shrouding (Mal, Venom, Sporecist, Horror), and hive guard. Gargoyles I have yet to see. Its not really that difficult.
I'm guessing you missed the bit where he brought most these ingredients, even with a leg up on what you describe by being able to conceal the HG turn 1 and hit with deepstriking Shock Guard which is the most points effective thing we have here by a wide Margin, and still got wrecked by them. And good luck hiding Impaler Cannon Guard vs a unit with 75" movespeed and the ability to run and shoot without penalty turn 1. I think you're heavily underestimating how much damage two Tigers do turn 1. Playing against this will give you a better perspective
garetheves wrote: Hi guys, I'm looking to start a tyranid force in he near future and so I've been doing a lot of reading and some list building. Just looking for some input from the group and opinions etc.
Spoiler:
I'm 100% going to start with a start collecting box (me and friend doing an escalation league type thing starting with the start collecting boxes) and I've always loved genestealers so wanted to build my army around those ideally.
The list below is my eventual aim at 2k points, gotta have a long term goal in mind right:-) the basic premise is:
Stealers and Broodlord sprint up the board and aim for first turn charge.
Hive tyrant mid board support and helping stealers where needed.
20x devgaunts tunnel with trygon and pop up to make use of the shoot twice stratagem.
Exocrines and hive guards as back line artillery, with psychic support from Neurothrope, screened by the 10 gaunts and a -1 to hit from Venomthropes.
Ripper swarms just objective grabbers.
If you have the points you might try taking the Hive Guard broke up to 5-6 models; to make it another target for your Single-Minded Annihilation stratagem. Also consider swapping out the Neurothrope and Venomthropes for a Malanthrope if you don’t mind ForgeWorld. Hens immune to the DW tyranid stratagem, and is still a character making him a bit harder to kill. Plus he affects Monsters without needing 3 models, albeit with a smaller range.
Yeah i did consider the Malanthrope but when i read the rules on it i was a little underwhelmed if im honest, unless im just reading it wrong, hence why i swapped for the venoms. Figured the extra range would be beneficial, but youre right about being harder to kill etc. Suppose the Venoms could just get taken out easily, and once 1 dies the exocrines are no longer protected.
In terms of the Hive Guard do you mean take 1 unit of 5-6 models as opposed to 3, or 2 units of 3 models? can only use the strategem once per round anyway so multiple units wouldnt benefit from that, but yes a larger unit would benefit more i guess. In a 2k list i wouldnt have the points unless i dropped something (1 exocrine or screening gaunts?) maybe drop some stealers?
One brood of 5-6, or whatever you could squeeze in. You only use it once per turn, but it would give you the option if you lost the Termagant brood or if you really need the high strength and AP to take something out. The smaller bubble of the Malanthropeis a trade off to save you about 50 point- that’s a 4th Hive Guard. Removing the 10 man Termagant brood almost brings you up to a 5th. The loss of the screening unit is a concern of course. You could consider dropping a few Genestealers to fill out your Devourer-Gants up to 30 models and the last one or two Hive Guard.
Hey guys this isn't really tactics related, but I'm getting a bit self conscious on my paintwork, all I ever see is these gorgeous Tyranids everywhere online. I'm going back and painting over a lot of quick and easy paint jobs that was basically my army, and re-adding techniques I picked up along the line for the sake of getting some unison... But my painting really isn't anything special, altho it has improved over time. There isn't really another Tyranid community thread, so can I ask people in here to show me a shot of a model they feel is an accurate representation of their army? No matter how good or bad, I'm just curious what the standard of painting for Bugs is for just the average community member in here. Feel free to PM me the pics if you don't want to play in here, not a lot going on in here atm though right
SHUPPET wrote: Hey guys this isn't really tactics related, but I'm getting a bit self conscious on my paintwork, all I ever see is these gorgeous Tyranids everywhere. I'm going back and painting over a lot of quick and easy paint jobs that was basically my army, and re-adding techniques I picked up along the line for the sake of getting some unison... But my painting really isn't anything special tho it has improved over time. There isn't really another Tyranid community thread, so can I ask people in here to show me a shot of a model they feel is an accurate representation of their army? No matter how good or bad, I'm just curious what the standard of painting for Bugs is for just the average community member in here. Feel free to PM me the pics if you don't want to play in here, not a lot going on in here atm though right
PM sent. Don’t be too worried about your paint job- anything is better than Grey Plastic. Even if your paint is blobby and needs to be thinned, you have more bragging rights than the Grey and Primed Tides.
The Tyranidos aesthetic is generally about tying together a paint scheme over a large swarm. Even if they’re individually kinda bad, if everything matches it looks decent.
They’re also the best candidate for dipping, which generally doesn’t look great but works for Nids since brown gloss matches their cockroach origins.
SHUPPET wrote: Hey guys this isn't really tactics related, but I'm getting a bit self conscious on my paintwork, all I ever see is these gorgeous Tyranids everywhere online. I'm going back and painting over a lot of quick and easy paint jobs that was basically my army, and re-adding techniques I picked up along the line for the sake of getting some unison... But my painting really isn't anything special, altho it has improved over time. There isn't really another Tyranid community thread, so can I ask people in here to show me a shot of a model they feel is an accurate representation of their army? No matter how good or bad, I'm just curious what the standard of painting for Bugs is for just the average community member in here. Feel free to PM me the pics if you don't want to play in here, not a lot going on in here atm though right
You see a lot of gorgeous Tyranids everywere online because they are an army that you can do lots of very cool stuff with, and have a very unique look. Almost all of the really skilled painters in my area have done at least one Tyranid army, even if they don't play bugs, for the challenge/joy of painting them. Go to an event, or play a lot at a local shop, and you will see plenty of average looking paint jobs and lots of grey plastic.
SHUPPET wrote: Hey guys this isn't really tactics related, but I'm getting a bit self conscious on my paintwork, all I ever see is these gorgeous Tyranids everywhere online. I'm going back and painting over a lot of quick and easy paint jobs that was basically my army, and re-adding techniques I picked up along the line for the sake of getting some unison... But my painting really isn't anything special, altho it has improved over time. There isn't really another Tyranid community thread, so can I ask people in here to show me a shot of a model they feel is an accurate representation of their army? No matter how good or bad, I'm just curious what the standard of painting for Bugs is for just the average community member in here. Feel free to PM me the pics if you don't want to play in here, not a lot going on in here atm though right
You see a lot of gorgeous Tyranids everywere online because they are an army that you can do lots of very cool stuff with, and have a very unique look. Almost all of the really skilled painters in my area have done at least one Tyranid army, even if they don't play bugs, for the challenge/joy of painting them. Go to an event, or play a lot at a local shop, and you will see plenty of average looking paint jobs and lots of grey plastic.
I wouldn’t say they’re a challenge to paint- I keep seeing them recommended because of how easy they are. Being “organic” little mistakes are easily forgiven. And as Badablack mentioned they’re easiest to get away with dipping, although I wouldn’t recommend a gloss.
I think one aspect is that Tyranids are easier to convert than many other armies except perhaps orks. Orks are easy to convert but are often messy looking whilst Tyranids are often cleaner and more proper looking; even if they've got extra arms sticking out of them.
I'd also say they are the most alien of all 40K races. Most of the rest are fantasy races in space (space elves, space orks, space skeletons etc...). Even Tau don't look so alien considering how many of their troops are in armour or power armour (and most are four limed bipeds anyway).
I'd love to see GW do a second really visually alien race one day.
SHUPPET wrote: Hey guys this isn't really tactics related, but I'm getting a bit self conscious on my paintwork, all I ever see is these gorgeous Tyranids everywhere online. I'm going back and painting over a lot of quick and easy paint jobs that was basically my army, and re-adding techniques I picked up along the line for the sake of getting some unison... But my painting really isn't anything special, altho it has improved over time. There isn't really another Tyranid community thread, so can I ask people in here to show me a shot of a model they feel is an accurate representation of their army? No matter how good or bad, I'm just curious what the standard of painting for Bugs is for just the average community member in here. Feel free to PM me the pics if you don't want to play in here, not a lot going on in here atm though right
You see a lot of gorgeous Tyranids everywere online because they are an army that you can do lots of very cool stuff with, and have a very unique look. Almost all of the really skilled painters in my area have done at least one Tyranid army, even if they don't play bugs, for the challenge/joy of painting them. Go to an event, or play a lot at a local shop, and you will see plenty of average looking paint jobs and lots of grey plastic.
I wouldn’t say they’re a challenge to paint- I keep seeing them recommended because of how easy they are. Being “organic” little mistakes are easily forgiven. And as Badablack mentioned they’re easiest to get away with dipping, although I wouldn’t recommend a gloss.
That is something i'm fought over. I painted my hormagaunts with grey brown skin (stormvermin fur and baneblade) and carapaces green with light green stripes. I didn't make the carapaces gloss though, and i'm not sure if i should do that. I tried one as a test and i find it good looking, but this isn't the first time that i'm being told not to do that.
SHUPPET wrote: Hey guys this isn't really tactics related, but I'm getting a bit self conscious on my paintwork, all I ever see is these gorgeous Tyranids everywhere online. I'm going back and painting over a lot of quick and easy paint jobs that was basically my army, and re-adding techniques I picked up along the line for the sake of getting some unison... But my painting really isn't anything special, altho it has improved over time. There isn't really another Tyranid community thread, so can I ask people in here to show me a shot of a model they feel is an accurate representation of their army? No matter how good or bad, I'm just curious what the standard of painting for Bugs is for just the average community member in here. Feel free to PM me the pics if you don't want to play in here, not a lot going on in here atm though right
I feel the exact same way. I went with all different shades for each unit type, with different carapace colours for each also. This is all fine, but the really stupid thing I did was decide to go the Leviathan-esque route and paint their skins over with Screaming Skull. It's incredible time consuming, and is the most transparent paint I've ever used. They look fine from a distance, but up close they look like a dog's arsehole. Then I look at what people have done online and they look universally incredible. The benefit of airbrushes, it seems.
SHUPPET wrote: Hey guys this isn't really tactics related, but I'm getting a bit self conscious on my paintwork, all I ever see is these gorgeous Tyranids everywhere online. I'm going back and painting over a lot of quick and easy paint jobs that was basically my army, and re-adding techniques I picked up along the line for the sake of getting some unison... But my painting really isn't anything special, altho it has improved over time. There isn't really another Tyranid community thread, so can I ask people in here to show me a shot of a model they feel is an accurate representation of their army? No matter how good or bad, I'm just curious what the standard of painting for Bugs is for just the average community member in here. Feel free to PM me the pics if you don't want to play in here, not a lot going on in here atm though right
You see a lot of gorgeous Tyranids everywere online because they are an army that you can do lots of very cool stuff with, and have a very unique look. Almost all of the really skilled painters in my area have done at least one Tyranid army, even if they don't play bugs, for the challenge/joy of painting them. Go to an event, or play a lot at a local shop, and you will see plenty of average looking paint jobs and lots of grey plastic.
I wouldn’t say they’re a challenge to paint- I keep seeing them recommended because of how easy they are. Being “organic” little mistakes are easily forgiven. And as Badablack mentioned they’re easiest to get away with dipping, although I wouldn’t recommend a gloss.
That is something i'm fought over. I painted my hormagaunts with grey brown skin (stormvermin fur and baneblade) and carapaces green with light green stripes. I didn't make the carapaces gloss though, and i'm not sure if i should do that. I tried one as a test and i find it good looking, but this isn't the first time that i'm being told not to do that.
Don’t let me scare you off from gloss- there are times where it’s okay to use it(it’s why they make it). If you like it, that’s one of those times. Remember it’s your army, enjoy it.
I like to muck around with gloss, satin, and matt finishes. I use Humbrol varnishes andthey’re really good for this. I put gloss on the chitinous exoskeleton, satin on the soft skin, and matt on the bony carapace. It take a little time and requires neatness, but it gives them a visual and tactile quality that’s completely unlike my other armies (satin all round, as it’s not,a polished glossy finish and doesn’t dull metallics like matt does).
Thanks to everyone who posted theirs so far, keep em coming! I'm finishing up a Dakkafex now so I'll share what my army WILL be looking like soon (gotta retroactively work on a bunch of models buts its no problem)
Here we go guys, sorry for the delay I was just putting the finishing touches on my first Dakkafex.
He's the first MC of Hive Fleet Qalupalik to meet my new updated scheme and paint standards (a change brought on by jealousy of everyone's beautiful bugs). It's still nowhere near as good as some of the better ones I've seen out there, but I don't know if I'm capable of much else at this stage.
Sorry, not the greatest quality pics cause im just working off a handheld phone.
Hard to see the carapace from that angel but here's another shot that shows the effect I've found and decided to stick with.
Karang029 wrote: Dude your stuff would look just as good on the table as any other really man nothing to worry about
Thanks man. I'm happy with this one too. This is a new scheme though.... a week ago when I made the post... Well let's just say there is a marked different in quality. I've played for I don't even know how many years, and I've never cared for my own paintwork beyond bringing it past the grey tide, and converting has just been a way of saving money. But I was kinda hit with an existential crisis this week, bought some expensive brushes and spent a long time and painted a lot of Termagants with random styles working to find something I was happy.
Big thanks to the guys in this thread who shared theirs with me, you all have excellent models and themes and it was nice to see the standards of the Dakka-level Nids player, it gave me something a little more tangible to aspire to instead of all the professional painted Nids I see out there. I'm sure the thread will keep moving but if anyone else is late and sees this message go ahead and PM me like a few others did, I'm still very interested to see them. Thanks!
Has anyone tried a zoanthrope heavy list? I saw one at ITC in Houston that did fairly well. How has smite changes effected our army if any since the Big FAQ?
Dynas wrote: Has anyone tried a zoanthrope heavy list? I saw one at ITC in Houston that did fairly well. How has smite changes effected our army if any since the Big FAQ?
Do you happen to know the list? Would be interesting to know if they were maxing out the brood, or keeping them MSU. I don’t think the Smite nerf affected us too much, since we still have some fairly nice Psychic powers to scatter between Smite blasts(and Psychic Scream when the penalty gets too high).
I run 4 of them in tourneys that do pretty well, and in casual games I’ll run 9 for the stratagem. While their damage output is nice and works well against the sort of targets that will be up in your face soaking fire (Custodes, knights) in my opinion a bigger point in their favor is being so resilient. 3++ 3 wound flyers will consume every shot sent at them and come out smiling. Always keep a Neurothrope near them for rerolls and healing.
Dynas wrote: Has anyone tried a zoanthrope heavy list? I saw one at ITC in Houston that did fairly well. How has smite changes effected our army if any since the Big FAQ?
Do you happen to know the list? Would be interesting to know if they were maxing out the brood, or keeping them MSU. I don’t think the Smite nerf affected us too much, since we still have some fairly nice Psychic powers to scatter between Smite blasts(and Psychic Scream when the penalty gets too high).
I believe it was 3 nuerothropes, 3 units of 5 Zoanthropes, 2 units Hiveguard x6, 3 units of 10x termies, some GSC, IG Mortars,
Sorry to derail the return to tactica but I have to say @SHUPPET I *love* that creative use of Devourers. Used them myself on some Nurgle Obliterators, it never ceases to amaze me how ‘nid weapons can be put to so many uses
lindsay40k wrote: Sorry to derail the return to tactica but I have to say @SHUPPET I *love* that creative use of Devourers. Used them myself on some Nurgle Obliterators, it never ceases to amaze me how ‘nid weapons can be put to so many uses
Thanks! Mine were inspired (but not directly lifted from) https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/user/profile/47473.page's TL Devourer conversions, which were similar in concept but very different in execution. I had to think long and hard about how I was going to cheap my way out of the FW models, but still find something I liked even more.
Dynas wrote: Has anyone tried a zoanthrope heavy list? I saw one at ITC in Houston that did fairly well. How has smite changes effected our army if any since the Big FAQ?
Do you happen to know the list? Would be interesting to know if they were maxing out the brood, or keeping them MSU. I don’t think the Smite nerf affected us too much, since we still have some fairly nice Psychic powers to scatter between Smite blasts(and Psychic Scream when the penalty gets too high).
I believe it was 3 nuerothropes, 3 units of 5 Zoanthropes, 2 units Hiveguard x6, 3 units of 10x termies, some GSC, IG Mortars,
There was 2 lists running Zopes, 1 had 3x 4 strong, and the other had 3x 6 strong.
Both supported them with waves of infantry, one guy packing +100 Termagants with 3x Flyrants for I guess a little more balanced list (relative to the other guy anyway), the other packing 220 infantry units, split about halfway between Krak Gants/Gaunts, and Neophyte Hybrids (with an Iconward+Relic and a Patriarch to significantly buff them all).
I actually like that second guys list a lot, I'm guessing he's planning to just try deny the board, try force a bunch of units in close, and ideally surround them in CC and hit them turn after turn with the Psychic Nuke strat. Sounds gimmicky, but I'm not going to dismiss anything till I play it, and it could be really fun. Neophytes are actually pretty wild in CC with the buffs, and Krak Gaunts should be able to catch and tie up most things.
EDIT: Patriarch buff doesnt affect Neophytes actually only Purestrains (which he has none of), and none of the Zopes had Onslaught, so I dunno what he's doing. Cool concept though.
The Zoanthrope lists seem similar to how I've been using them as part of Hydra swarm lists. They are not an especially appealing target for heavy weaponry so they don't break the swarm's threat saturation like Warriors or similar do while providing wide synapse coverage. Smite also works well with tarpits in general since you can lock down a key unit and light it up (plus Zoanthropes can potentially Smite from outside of denial range).
C4790M wrote: Patriarch gives GSC infantry fearless so it means those 30 man blobs have to be chewed through manually
Oh damn I thought the Primus did that. Well that makes sense I guess. I think I would have found points for the Prius either way.
Not sure if a Primus would really be of much use with that list. While his to-hit boost is always handy (and mandatory if you bring Rockgrinders), the biggest benefit a Primus brings is the ability to modify the Cult Ambush table (especially with Meticulous Uprising) so he generally wants to be run with a key melee squad that you need to be able to reliably deliver. Neophytes really like the buff as well mind you, but the damage potential is significantly higher with GSC melee squads.
Also incidentally, the Iconward also has a moral reroll aura in addition to the 6+ FNP and Relic-granted +1 strength bubbles.
Hey guys,
I just got my hands on the Nidz codex today and I've had some nidz from the deathstorm and 1 pack of genestealers and ofcourse many from the Space Hulk which are already assembled and painted. Deathstorm and the pack ain't build yet, but we don't play games under 1k, so I haven't never really bothered.
I played around with list ideas which can be made with the above models and start collecting box:
Does it sound like a bargain to start my Nidz? Or anything better to recommend. This list would be more or less against semi-competitive friendly lists... and a new start of an another faction.
Xirax wrote: Hey guys,
I just got my hands on the Nidz codex today and I've had some nidz from the deathstorm and 1 pack of genestealers and ofcourse many from the Space Hulk which are already assembled and painted. Deathstorm and the pack ain't build yet, but we don't play games under 1k, so I haven't never really bothered.
I played around with list ideas which can be made with the above models and start collecting box:
Does it sound like a bargain to start my Nidz? Or anything better to recommend. This list would be more or less against semi-competitive friendly lists... and a new start of an another faction.
Thanks in advance.
Not a bad start at all. Only nitpick is I would build the dual Boneswords instead of Bonesword/Lashwhip on the Warriors. The extra attack is worth more than striking after they get killed.
Hey guys,
I've been play testing a Kid list for an upcoming 1750pt tournament, mainly against my buddy's Tau. Although I've been winning the odd game due to lucky objective draws, my army basically gets wiped by turn 3, leaving me to hide with some rippers until the game ends. My list is as follows:
The list my friend is running is roughly the following:
2x Commanders w/ Ion Blasters
2x Cadre Fireblades
1x Longstrike
5x Strike Team
5x Strike Team
5x Strike Team
5x Strike Team
5x Strike Team
5x Strike Team
2x Riptide
5x Pathfinders
5x Pathfinders
2x Hammerhead: Ion Cannon
The issue I'm having is that the Commanders, Riptides, and Hammerheads blow apart my Hive Tyrants and the triple-firing Strike Teams rip apart my Genestealers. The only real threat that I have is the Hive Guard squad, but they can only hide out of sight for so long (and sometimes they can't). My opponent's use of Markerlights is top notch, as he always gets one or two priority targets up to 5 Markerlights and then takes it down.
Any advice on my list, or perhaps tactics vs Tau. My feeling is just that it's a hard match up for Nids, as they are just so good at taking out monsters and hordes. But maybe I'm missing something.
TonyH122 wrote: Hey guys,
I've been play testing a Kid list for an upcoming 1750pt tournament, mainly against my buddy's Tau. Although I've been winning the odd game due to lucky objective draws, my army basically gets wiped by turn 3, leaving me to hide with some rippers until the game ends. My list is as follows:
The list my friend is running is roughly the following:
2x Commanders w/ Ion Blasters
2x Cadre Fireblades
1x Longstrike
5x Strike Team
5x Strike Team
5x Strike Team
5x Strike Team
5x Strike Team
5x Strike Team
2x Riptide
5x Pathfinders
5x Pathfinders
2x Hammerhead: Ion Cannon
The issue I'm having is that the Commanders, Riptides, and Hammerheads blow apart my Hive Tyrants and the triple-firing Strike Teams rip apart my Genestealers. The only real threat that I have is the Hive Guard squad, but they can only hide out of sight for so long (and sometimes they can't). My opponent's use of Markerlights is top notch, as he always gets one or two priority targets up to 5 Markerlights and then takes it down.
Any advice on my list, or perhaps tactics vs Tau. My feeling is just that it's a hard match up for Nids, as they are just so good at taking out monsters and hordes. But maybe I'm missing something.
Well, you're not wrong Tau have always been a thorn in the Hive's side. One thing I would do differant is having some plain old Gaunts. Even your Termagants are "elite" "Devilgants". I think a Brood of Hormagaunts will make things much better. Sad as it is I would trim some Stealers to find the points. Good luck! And good hunting!
TonyH122 wrote: Hey guys,
I've been play testing a Kid list for an upcoming 1750pt tournament, mainly against my buddy's Tau. Although I've been winning the odd game due to lucky objective draws, my army basically gets wiped by turn 3, leaving me to hide with some rippers until the game ends. My list is as follows:
The list my friend is running is roughly the following:
2x Commanders w/ Ion Blasters
2x Cadre Fireblades
1x Longstrike
5x Strike Team
5x Strike Team
5x Strike Team
5x Strike Team
5x Strike Team
5x Strike Team
2x Riptide
5x Pathfinders
5x Pathfinders
2x Hammerhead: Ion Cannon
The issue I'm having is that the Commanders, Riptides, and Hammerheads blow apart my Hive Tyrants and the triple-firing Strike Teams rip apart my Genestealers. The only real threat that I have is the Hive Guard squad, but they can only hide out of sight for so long (and sometimes they can't). My opponent's use of Markerlights is top notch, as he always gets one or two priority targets up to 5 Markerlights and then takes it down.
Any advice on my list, or perhaps tactics vs Tau. My feeling is just that it's a hard match up for Nids, as they are just so good at taking out monsters and hordes. But maybe I'm missing something.
Its a strong list, the issue is you have no -1 shrouding. Drop a flyrant, drop Kronos relic ( I tried it a tourney, didnt do gak over 5 games, take the HVN or just take regular gone and save the CP). take a Malanthrope or Venomthropes. If you are going ITC, drop the GS to x19, save both for T2 deep strike for REcon or behind enemy lines as needed. Make the Devilgants x19 all with Devourers, you should have some extra points, take more hive guard or a dakkafex with enhanced senses, spore cist and put him in Kronos. Move the devilgants to kronos, move a unit of rippers to kraken.
Something like this, not exactly sure on the points but its close, If needed trim/rebalance the gant weaons to fleshborers.
TonyH122 wrote: Hey guys,
I've been play testing a Kid list for an upcoming 1750pt tournament, mainly against my buddy's Tau. Although I've been winning the odd game due to lucky objective draws, my army basically gets wiped by turn 3, leaving me to hide with some rippers until the game ends. My list is as follows:
The list my friend is running is roughly the following:
2x Commanders w/ Ion Blasters
2x Cadre Fireblades
1x Longstrike
5x Strike Team
5x Strike Team
5x Strike Team
5x Strike Team
5x Strike Team
5x Strike Team
2x Riptide
5x Pathfinders
5x Pathfinders
2x Hammerhead: Ion Cannon
The issue I'm having is that the Commanders, Riptides, and Hammerheads blow apart my Hive Tyrants and the triple-firing Strike Teams rip apart my Genestealers. The only real threat that I have is the Hive Guard squad, but they can only hide out of sight for so long (and sometimes they can't). My opponent's use of Markerlights is top notch, as he always gets one or two priority targets up to 5 Markerlights and then takes it down.
Any advice on my list, or perhaps tactics vs Tau. My feeling is just that it's a hard match up for Nids, as they are just so good at taking out monsters and hordes. But maybe I'm missing something.
You are offering too many high value targets to the enemy pulse rifles, while at the same time not providing any hit penalty. Going full on glasscannons against Tau is not a good idea.
Well, I'm relieved to know that it's not just me struggling against Tau. I'd be super happy to put some of Carnipuppies into the list, but 1750 is such an amazingly annoying points level. Hard to put in everything you want for a nice rounded list.
As for what Carnifexes, do we think quad Devourers or scything talons?
TonyH122 wrote: Well, I'm relieved to know that it's not just me struggling against Tau. I'd be super happy to put some of Carnipuppies into the list, but 1750 is such an amazingly annoying points level. Hard to put in everything you want for a nice rounded list.
As for what Carnifexes, do we think quad Devourers or scything talons?
Quad Devourers, Deathspitters, or 2x of either and a Heavy Venom Cannon would be best.
Versus tau if you take Swarmlord and can get a guarenteed T1 charge is good (even on Hammer and Anvil deployments) otherwise you can regularly get both GS units on a charge T1 with Kraken and Swarmlord.
Catalyst them, shroud them, charge with that unit first (this shroud will make his 5's on overwatch go back to 6's). Then pile in and lock up as many units as possible. Make sure to position appropriately to consolidate into other units where able.
ANother thing to do is charge something with a high save value first like a flyrant to let him use his high Armor and Invul save to soak up all the overwatch fire.
once you get that first unit in, even if they die the pressure is on, and you can now close in with the rest of the force.
Dynas wrote: Versus tau if you take Swarmlord and can get a guarenteed T1 charge is good (even on Hammer and Anvil deployments) otherwise you can regularly get both GS units on a charge T1 with Kraken and Swarmlord.
Catalyst them, shroud them, charge with that unit first (this shroud will make his 5's on overwatch go back to 6's). Then pile in and lock up as many units as possible. Make sure to position appropriately to consolidate into other units where able.
ANother thing to do is charge something with a high save value first like a flyrant to let him use his high Armor and Invul save to soak up all the overwatch fire.
once you get that first unit in, even if they die the pressure is on, and you can now close in with the rest of the force.
No modifiers apply in Overwatch, T'au sept will ALWAYS hit on 5 regardless of buffs/nerfs (with the additional rerolls of 1s)
I have been undefeated against Tau with the following list. My friend plays a Tau list very similar to the one that you fight:
Majority of large targets are -1 to shoot and always count as in cover and hard to take down. Has 13 CP as well for double shot on the Hive Guard, fight twice on stealers, Double Advance, etc.
Kraken
Flyrant,, MRC, Devourers, AG, TS - Chameleonic Mutation
Neurothrope (Keep him here in Kraken, behind the stealers to make them Morale immune)
16 stealers with 4 Maws
17 stealers with 4 Maws
3 Rippers
3 rippers
17 Termagaunts (5 have devourers)
16 Termagaunts (5 have devourers)
6 Hive Guard
4 Carnifex with DS and HVC, Spore Cysts and Enhanced Senses
So the Carnifex are all -1 to shoot and always count in cover. Three of them huddle around the Warlord for the trait that does not allow the opponent to get a cover save.
Kraken portion is meant to get there fast, hugging out of line of sight terrain, and then die. Using Catalyst on the way in. Double advance stratagem has given me a 20" first move two games in a row now, with a 7" charge can give you charges on turn one....but I bank on turn two.
Flyrants drop down avoiding fushion and picking off squishier targets on the flanks with Smite etc.
So has anyone considered a Zoanthrope Smite bomb? Take 2 broods of 5 Zoanthropes a Nerothrope and a brood of 3 venomthropes put all in Jorg and DS them in with a Raviner brood (costs 4 CP) Rest of the army is on the table likely a gun blob of Hive guard or Tyrannofex's with a Malanthrope for shroud and some bubble wrap. This gives deadly starting table presence shooting (clearing a hole through chaff hopefully) then 2nd turn drop in the smite bomb. 2x d3+3 smites rerolling 1's and healing on successful smites plus an extra smite from the nero and a psyscreem for good measure. This would put the hurt on just about anything.I built a 2000pts list with this in mind but can't really test it for a week or so.
I'm not sure of the exact values off the top of my head, but I think the PL restrictions on reserves from the beta rules would make it really hard to pull off that sort of list. Also you need broods of 6 for D3 + 3 smite sadly. At 4-5 you get 2D3 instead.
Hes trying to do a Trygon DS with the genestealers, but even when it does work its not too successful as I can just fall back and shoot. So far the FHT and the carnifexes are working well, but hes not sure what to take in addition to improve his list. I was thinking ditch the trygons and take Kraken with more gribblies and HG (but taking a second detachment for kronos at 1500 might be tight)
Thats a pretty heavily optimised guard list to throw against a newbie. Defo ditch the trygons for hive guard, maybe give the carnifex and tyrants heavy venom cannons to amp up the lists anti-tank.
Well he’s new to 8th but not 40k, but I get your point. I could tone the list down a bit, unfortunately that’s most of my IG models so the main changes I would make would just be different Russ variants. It’s the style of guard I’ve always played, it just so happens now it’s one of the preferred builds.
Any other suggestions? Different Hive fleets, relics etc? How are exocrines?
Maybe some Tyrannofexes with rupture cannons? they are not the most optimal choice against most targets, but they are quite good at taking down T8 targets.
Also venomthropes or malanthropes to protect against guard shooting.
Billagio wrote: Any other suggestions? Different Hive fleets, relics etc?
If he really likes the alpha strike element with the Genestealers, it might be worth trying a Genestealer Cult Vanguard loaded with Purestrain Genestealers. Purestrains can deploy via Cult Ambush which saves a bit of points that would otherwise be spent on a "transport" and are specifically exempt from the restrictions on first turn deep strike under the beta rules. They also have access to strength buffs from the GSC faction that will help them out against T8 targets which Genestealers otherwise struggle with.
Exocrines are fairly good but they won't really help against your list since none of your units fall under their optimal targets and you have plenty of tools to snipe one before it can do any real damage.
Is there enough terrain to hide a swarmlord? Dropping the Trygons for a Swarmlord and launching either a unit of Genestealers or the Hormagaunts with his Hive Commander ability into melee on turn 1 will shut down a lot of shooting.
Billagio wrote: So my buddy is new to 8th and has been struggling against my IG list. Can you guys give any advice on what he could do to improve his list?
Here is what he had from memory. I don’t remember what his relics and warlord trait were or where the last 20 points went:
Hes trying to do a Trygon DS with the genestealers, but even when it does work its not too successful as I can just fall back and shoot. So far the FHT and the carnifexes are working well, but hes not sure what to take in addition to improve his list. I was thinking ditch the trygons and take Kraken with more gribblies and HG (but taking a second detachment for kronos at 1500 might be tight)
Any suggestions?
Change to Kraken instead of behemoth for GS and Hormies. If possible put he Carnifexes in Kronos Or Jorm. ALso, he is lacking in S8 anti tank. Give those Carnifex HVC and Devourers. Needs hiveguard and a -1 shrouding unit. Needs to get in fast and pile into your tanks with his GS. Swarmlord would help with that. ALso Tryongs are not too good, perhaps try Mawlocs for DS distraction attacks on your basilisk and lemans.
Tyrannofex with Acid Spray is like the ideal unit to fight Custodes. I'm liking it more and more. Wait for them to fail saves, and then pay 2CP to boost the damage of its shots by 1. So each failed save is D3+1, with the possibility to kill a Custode Bike.
Wait for them to fail saves, then pay a CP to boost damage? That’s... *reads* ...hmm. Technically not explicitly illegal AFAICT. Buuuuut it’s going to cause a lot of arguments, and is never going to survive the next few FAQs
lindsay40k wrote: Wait for them to fail saves, then pay a CP to boost damage? That’s... *reads* ...hmm. Technically not explicitly illegal AFAICT. Buuuuut it’s going to cause a lot of arguments, and is never going to survive the next few FAQs
Marmatag wrote: Tyrannofex with Acid Spray is like the ideal unit to fight Custodes. I'm liking it more and more. Wait for them to fail saves, and then pay 2CP to boost the damage of its shots by 1. So each failed save is D3+1, with the possibility to kill a Custode Bike.
As i heard from other players, that was clarified by ETC rulepack. You have to declare stratagem before attack. Although your meta may not follow ETC rulepack. My does.
lindsay40k wrote: Wait for them to fail saves, then pay a CP to boost damage? That’s... *reads* ...hmm. Technically not explicitly illegal AFAICT. Buuuuut it’s going to cause a lot of arguments, and is never going to survive the next few FAQs
It's survived them all so far
Warptime on Heretic units arriving from deep strike was explicitly endorsed by the previous FAQ, then the current one reversed the ruling.
Speaking as someone whose wrecking ball of ten Chaos Terminators now sits on the shelf: do not rely on a controversial interpretation of RAW, nor let it inform your purchases.
lindsay40k wrote: Wait for them to fail saves, then pay a CP to boost damage? That’s... *reads* ...hmm. Technically not explicitly illegal AFAICT. Buuuuut it’s going to cause a lot of arguments, and is never going to survive the next few FAQs
It's survived them all so far
Warptime on Heretic units arriving from deep strike was explicitly endorsed by the previous FAQ, then the current one reversed the ruling.
Speaking as someone whose wrecking ball of ten Chaos Terminators now sits on the shelf: do not rely on a controversial interpretation of RAW, nor let it inform your purchases.
I'm just saying you said "it's never going to survive the next few FAQs" and I think it quite possibly could, it's not that cut and dry. It could also be ruled against too, who knows.
Rules as written there is nothing stopping you from doing it.
And it's not that great of a stratagem, just situational. This is why it doesn't come up. 2CP to barely deal any damage... there are WAY better ways to spend CP most of the time. If you had to declare this before shooting - which is not what it says - then it would be hot garbage for 2cp.
Marmatag wrote: Tyrannofex with Acid Spray is like the ideal unit to fight Custodes. I'm liking it more and more. Wait for them to fail saves, and then pay 2CP to boost the damage of its shots by 1. So each failed save is D3+1, with the possibility to kill a Custode Bike.
As i heard from other players, that was clarified by ETC rulepack. You have to declare stratagem before attack. Although your meta may not follow ETC rulepack. My does.
This is a flat out rules change, though.
I could care less about the argument, but you're right, it does result in a paused clock scenario and will reduce the game length by 2 turns. So, it might not be worth it from a pure "i need more points" scenario. Or it could be worth it to rob your opponent of turn 5 and 6.
Fast Dice is an optional way to roll wounds but it's not how wound rolls work. Technically, every single shot from an Acid Spray is rolled one at a time, resolving wound rolls, then save rolls for each shot before moving on to the next die in the pool. Therefore, to play it RAW, you must roll the Acid Spray shots one at a time, deciding to use the stratagem after a single failed wound... or you do what ETC ruled and declare that you're using it before using Fast Dice to roll.
Deciding to use the stratagem after rolling all dice in the pool and after resolving all saves in the pool is technically cheating, but most people don't know the nuances of Fast Dice and thus won't call you on it.
Zimko wrote: Fast Dice is an optional way to roll wounds but it's not how wound rolls work. Technically, every single shot from an Acid Spray is rolled one at a time, resolving wound rolls, then save rolls for each shot before moving on to the next die in the pool. Therefore, to play it RAW, you must roll the Acid Spray shots one at a time, deciding to use the stratagem after a single failed wound... or you do what ETC ruled and declare that you're using it before using Fast Dice to roll.
Deciding to use the stratagem after rolling all dice in the pool and after resolving all saves in the pool is technically cheating, but most people don't know the nuances of Fast Dice and thus won't call you on it.
Interesting point. Here's the section on fast rolling:
Fast Dice Rolling The rules for resolving attacks have been written assuming you will make them one at a time. However, it is possible to speed up your battles by rolling the dice for similar attacks together. In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack) or the same Weapon Skill (if it’s a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics, and they must be directed at the same unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls. Your opponent can then allocate the wounds one at a time, making the saving throws and suffering damage each time as appropriate. Remember, if the target unit contains a model that has already lost any wounds, they must allocate further wounds to this model until either it is slain, or all the wounds have been saved or resolved
Bolded for emphasis. Rolling multiple saves at once is actually breaking RAW. So if my opponent wants to fast roll their saves, they're actually not even playing within the parameters of fast dice rolling.
Playing with fast dice rolling still allows you to use this stratagem after all wound rolls have been decided, though. As, both players have agreed to play fast rolling wherever possible.
Roll your saves individually vs Tyrannofex guys! lol
EDIT: I don't think it's that a big deal honestly, if you get a turn of double shooting with a Tyrannofex Acid Spray vs a multiwound target, safe bet that it's probably going to be the highest any of your MC's are putting out for shooting that turn, so if you want to use the strat you'll still be using it here in advance
If you wait until after your opponent rolls saves, then spring the stratagem on them, then yeah I'd say it is cheating. Marmatag showed the exact rules. It's pretty clear that you must declare the stratagem before saves are rolled, but you can wait until after rolling to wound to decide.
SHUPPET wrote: Seems this definitely doesn't work reliably then.
Roll your saves individually vs Tyrannofex guys! lol
EDIT: I don't think it's that a big deal honestly, if you get a turn of double shooting with a Tyrannofex Acid Spray vs a multiwound target, safe bet that it's probably going to be the highest any of your MC's are putting out for shooting that turn, so if you want to use the strat you'll still be using it here in advance
I thought about that, but single-minded annihilation only works for <INFANTRY> keyword :(
But you're right, in a general sense shooting twice is far superior to adding 1 damage.
That said most of us run Hive Tyrants with Twin Devourers, and 12 of those shots dealing 2 damage can really put the hurt on something. Especially Eldar.
SHUPPET wrote: Seems this definitely doesn't work reliably then.
Roll your saves individually vs Tyrannofex guys! lol
EDIT: I don't think it's that a big deal honestly, if you get a turn of double shooting with a Tyrannofex Acid Spray vs a multiwound target, safe bet that it's probably going to be the highest any of your MC's are putting out for shooting that turn, so if you want to use the strat you'll still be using it here in advance
I thought about that, but single-minded annihilation only works for <INFANTRY> keyword :(
But you're right, in a general sense shooting twice is far superior to adding 1 damage.
That said most of us run Hive Tyrants with Twin Devourers, and 12 of those shots dealing 2 damage can really put the hurt on something. Especially Eldar.
Minor nit pick, Tyrannofexen are GunBeasts so they shoot twice if they don't move as an organic feature. I also concur that you need to pop the strat before saves. Just as a matter of sportsmanship, as well as rules as written.
SHUPPET wrote: Seems this definitely doesn't work reliably then.
Roll your saves individually vs Tyrannofex guys! lol
EDIT: I don't think it's that a big deal honestly, if you get a turn of double shooting with a Tyrannofex Acid Spray vs a multiwound target, safe bet that it's probably going to be the highest any of your MC's are putting out for shooting that turn, so if you want to use the strat you'll still be using it here in advance
I thought about that, but single-minded annihilation only works for <INFANTRY> keyword :(
But you're right, in a general sense shooting twice is far superior to adding 1 damage.
That said most of us run Hive Tyrants with Twin Devourers, and 12 of those shots dealing 2 damage can really put the hurt on something. Especially Eldar.
Tfexes get to shoot twice if they remain stationary. He wasn’t referring to the strategem.
SHUPPET wrote: Seems this definitely doesn't work reliably then.
Roll your saves individually vs Tyrannofex guys! lol
EDIT: I don't think it's that a big deal honestly, if you get a turn of double shooting with a Tyrannofex Acid Spray vs a multiwound target, safe bet that it's probably going to be the highest any of your MC's are putting out for shooting that turn, so if you want to use the strat you'll still be using it here in advance
I thought about that, but single-minded annihilation only works for <INFANTRY> keyword :(
But you're right, in a general sense shooting twice is far superior to adding 1 damage.
That said most of us run Hive Tyrants with Twin Devourers, and 12 of those shots dealing 2 damage can really put the hurt on something. Especially Eldar.
Tfexes get to shoot twice if they remain stationary. He wasn’t referring to the strategem.
Yes, I realize that. I assumed we were talking about comparative choice for places to spend command points.
Everyone keeps calling Tyranids a high tier army, and while that may have been true earlier in the edition, I can't see this statement as true anymore. Tiers in every competitive game I've played have been based on match ups, IE a very strong character/race/build cannot be considered high tier if its match ups are bad vs other top tier armies. Since I started playing, GW have released 2 very powerful codexes in both Knights and DE - both of which have one of their best match ups against Nids, one of which being perfectly positioned to capitalise on and exploit the aspect of the game that we struggle the most to deal with (Knights), and the other being perfectly built to deal with and counter our most common features and strengths as an army just by virtue of design (Dark Eldar). With this in mind, I can't honestly describe Tyranids as being higher than mid tier right now, as no matter how capable we are vs the rest of the game, an army that gets countered so heavily by the current two strongest and most popular dexes, is a competitive liability, and serves the role more as the dark horse in the tournament, who may knock some extremely powerful armies out the comp but simply isn't positioned to have a very high chance of winning themselves - ironically, exactly what DE and Knights both used to be throughout the history of the game.
On the other hand, I think this is the hardest yard for us, and DE and Knights have always been a bane of ours in every edition. While DE and Knights are unlikely to lose much play, the addition of factions like Orks and Wolves to the game (two armies designed in a much more attractive manner to Tyranids, who we stand a very good chance of being one of the better armies against), I think meta changes will only be positive for us going forth. And who knows what toys we'll get with GSC release, as unlikely as it is maybe they will release something crazy like Jump Metamorphs or Aberrant Jetbikes that will help our Knight match up or something, or something similar but more thematic that surprises us, I'm not ruling anything out yet. And at the very least we'll get hard confirmation on whether or not we'll be allowed to ally in a Shadowsword.
Just my thoughts on the current state of Tyranids.
SHUPPET wrote: Everyone keeps calling Tyranids a high tier army, and while that may have been true earlier in the edition, I can't see this statement as true anymore. Tiers in every competitive game I've played have been based on match ups, IE a very strong character/race/build cannot be considered high tier if its match ups are bad vs other top tier armies. Since I started playing, GW have released 2 very powerful codexes in both Knights and DE - both of which have one of their best match ups against Nids, one of which being perfectly positioned to capitalise on and exploit the aspect of the game that we struggle the most to deal with (Knights), and the other being perfectly built to deal with and counter our most common features and strengths as an army just by virtue of design (Dark Eldar). With this in mind, I can't honestly describe Tyranids as being higher than mid tier right now, as no matter how capable we are vs the rest of the game, an army that gets countered so heavily by the current two strongest and most popular dexes, is a competitive liability, and serves the role more as the dark horse in the tournament, who may knock some extremely powerful armies out the comp but simply isn't positioned to have a very high chance of winning themselves - ironically, exactly what DE and Knights both used to be throughout the history of the game.
On the other hand, I think this is the hardest yard for us, and DE and Knights have always been a bane of ours in every edition. While DE and Knights are unlikely to lose much play, the addition of factions like Orks and Wolves to the game (two armies designed in a much more attractive manner to Tyranids, who we stand a very good chance of being one of the better armies against), I think meta changes will only be positive for us going forth. And who knows what toys we'll get with GSC release, as unlikely as it is maybe they will release something crazy like Jump Metamorphs or Aberrant Jetbikes that will help our Knight match up or something, or something similar but more thematic that surprises us, I'm not ruling anything out yet. And at the very least we'll get hard confirmation on whether or not we'll be allowed to ally in a Shadowsword.
Just my thoughts on the current state of Tyranids.
I tend to agree, and I think you should also add our unfavourable matchup with Tau to the list.
I might be having different experiences than the rest of you, but what has been particularly troubling about knights? The Castellan is a huge pain in the rear, but other than that I am not impressed by damage output. My answer to the Castellan so far has been Mind Control followed by the Horror. Once you get that -1 to hit on it, they become reluctant to overcharge the big plasma. Then, trust to your spore cysts to make it through the firepower. I won't comment too much on DE, although I think that Grotesque spam is actually harder for us than VenomSpam. Also, Tau? I feel like we have very consistent access to negatives to hit and strong psychic, I have been overwhelming tau pretty easily so far. Stack negatives, wrap units in melee so they cant fall back, and you'll make it in.
Comparing anyone to Drukarhi right now is pointless. They are OP and way too cheap. Its crazy that the week 2 follow up FAQ didn't fix that codex like it did ours. Remember when flyrants and malanthropes were cheap, Lictors could Pheremone trail in GS?
Knights, you just have to play objectives against them. Focus all firepower on one at a time while using your superior numbers to grab objectives. you probably arn't going to table an IK list.
I still think Nids are a top tier army, you just have to take our best units. Right now that is GS, Hive Guard, Dakkafexes, Neuro, (flyrants/swarmy depending) and Venomthrope/Malanthrope for shroud.
DE can win against nids only because the stuff they have is undercosted.
We actually are a good counter to DE right now, Dessie cannons cannot hurt our flyrants efficently, and they have no answer to a gaunt swarm. Yes they have a basic weapon which is decent against our monsters, but even then? They have no AP, so as long as you don't play our "flyers", you shouldn't have problems with those, they shoot only a bit better than a bolter.
I haven't faced grotesque though, and they look like troubles.
I have only been playing Tyranids a few months but when I play them they feel like they are in a great spot. I have only had one game where I have felt like I stood no chance (against Dark Eldar).
I feel like we are just fine right now.
I do wonder why I am having a lot of success with a unit that most people aren't running though - Acid Spray Tyrannofex. They are the Boogeyman of my playgroup.
I am really struggling with how to use Genestealers and am thinking I may just replace them with Rippers to spend on more MC (I play Nidzilla).
Instead of making separate threads, y’all mind if we just discuss Tyranid Kill Teams here?
For my question, does anyone else have trouble justifying making using any other specialists other than Combat, Heavy, Comms, or Veteran? Doesn’t feel like the other specializations bring much to Tyranid Kill Teams.
Spoletta wrote:DE can win against nids only because the stuff they have is undercosted.
We actually are a good counter to DE right now, Dessie cannons cannot hurt our flyrants efficently, and they have no answer to a gaunt swarm. Yes they have a basic weapon which is decent against our monsters, but even then? They have no AP, so as long as you don't play our "flyers", you shouldn't have problems with those, they shoot only a bit better than a bolter. I haven't faced grotesque though, and they look like troubles.
I gotta say you're the first person I've ever heard say that Tyranids counter DE. Shooting a bit better than a Bolter is a big deal. If Bolter's were S7-8 + Rapid Fire 3 at 36", they'd be a bigger threat too. And splinter isn't even their main threat thats just another bonus, their specialist weapons are the wave. On an army that can completely dictate range against a very short range army and be exactly where they need to be almost all the time, and thats just the more classic DE build, I actually think we perform marginally better against Talos, although the rest of the army makes it a massive pain.
I've never met a DE player who hasn't said Tyranids is their best match up.
jifel wrote:I might be having different experiences than the rest of you, but what has been particularly troubling about knights? The Castellan is a huge pain in the rear, but other than that I am not impressed by damage output. My answer to the Castellan so far has been Mind Control followed by the Horror. Once you get that -1 to hit on it, they become reluctant to overcharge the big plasma. Then, trust to your spore cysts to make it through the firepower. I won't comment too much on DE, although I think that Grotesque spam is actually harder for us than VenomSpam. Also, Tau? I feel like we have very consistent access to negatives to hit and strong psychic, I have been overwhelming tau pretty easily so far. Stack negatives, wrap units in melee so they cant fall back, and you'll make it in.
Interesting. I find that they are a big brick that can project their offensive easily anywhere on the board, that I struggle to lift off the table, and just quickly knock out the teeth of my army by virtue of being immune to most of it and targeting down the stuff that isn't. I'm using purist Nid dex at the moment, so I don't have access to Mind Control or Mass Hypnosis, but I'm planning on changing that soon once I finish off my cultist detachment, and maybe those will help. I have a few things in mind for it in fact, so I'll temporarily retract my statements on this match up until I feel a bit more comfortable, however if we can make it a fair match it definitely requires some list tailing, although I guess thats par for the case for most armies vs Knights.
Sinful Hero wrote:Instead of making separate threads, y’all mind if we just discuss Tyranid Kill Teams here?
For my question, does anyone else have trouble justifying making using any other specialists other than Combat, Heavy, Comms, or Veteran? Doesn’t feel like the other specializations bring much to Tyranid Kill Teams.
I too would prefer if we could just use this thread for Kill Team as well. I am waiting on my box to arrive so no input from me yet though.
Just went 3-0 at a 34 man ITC RTT this weekend, taking second. Ended up facing a Tau tigershark/IonHead list and then two consecutive IG/BA/Castellan lists. Castellans are really rough, in fact both of those games ended with my opponents castellan being alive after six turns, but their only model left. Don't have too much relevant insight on the Tau game, I mind controlled the tigershark and got purestrains into the tanks, tearing them to shreds. Round 2 I went second to the Castellan on a board with lots of area terrain but little line of sight blocking. Ended up losing all six hive guard, two carnifexes and my "the Horror" Neurothrope to the castellan and a forlorn furying captain on turn 1. Was able to recover by killing the captain with the Kraken stealers, then over-running towards a scout unit and using our fight twice strat to wrap them up. Purestrains came in and deleted a full 15 man Death Company unit (thank you Iconward!) and likewise wrapped up a scout unit. Killed both in his turn, and then repeated in my turn. Also ate a character to get some more CPs, and by my turn 3 I reached his Tank Commanders and wrapped them up, before falling back from one a turn to mind control the Knight into. The Castellan stomped around for 3 turns and ended up killing all 38 genestealers, but he never recovered from me holding more objectives for six turns. Second game was less tanks, but a whole lot more guard. This time I went first, and got a good turn of dakkafex shooting in to clear out the front line of infantry before the Castellan killed all five. Again, I used large kraken stealer blobs to hit a unit turn 1, shoot off and fight again to wrap infantry units that couldnt fall back. Smash captains and mephiston went in to try to clear them out, but with an invuln they never do much to single wound models. Smites and the patriarch in melee cleared them out. Game ended with the castellan falling back from my stealers and running into my lines to kill two characters a turn. It hurt, but at this point I had scattered units onto all four objectives and very comfortably was holding a lead so I just smited him until turn six ended with the knight hanging on to a few wounds.
Lessons: I have had a lot of games now against Castellan + CP friends with lots of screens. It means the Castellan is hard to get to, but it also ensures that fast Stealer units can continually wrap up models to deny shooting. You cant beat a Castellan at its game with Nids, we will absolutely lose the shooting battle. Deny its strengths and have characters that it cant reliably target floating around. Missiles hurt, but its only two turns. Also, getting the horror onto it is amazing when it works.
I've been thinking of more Melee horde nids to go against them, pockets of Genestealers, lots of Hormaganst and focus on getting and killing everything else, and hopefully use stratagems to MW and basically 5/6+ to wound down 1 of them. The flamer really hurts but having MSU it will have to over kill cheap 40pts units that will time up and take objectives, or he can really focus on the hard hitters and maybe lose the game.
jifel wrote: Just went 3-0 at a 34 man ITC RTT this weekend, taking second. Ended up facing a Tau tigershark/IonHead list and then two consecutive IG/BA/Castellan lists. Castellans are really rough, in fact both of those games ended with my opponents castellan being alive after six turns, but their only model left. Don't have too much relevant insight on the Tau game, I mind controlled the tigershark and got purestrains into the tanks, tearing them to shreds. Round 2 I went second to the Castellan on a board with lots of area terrain but little line of sight blocking. Ended up losing all six hive guard, two carnifexes and my "the Horror" Neurothrope to the castellan and a forlorn furying captain on turn 1. Was able to recover by killing the captain with the Kraken stealers, then over-running towards a scout unit and using our fight twice strat to wrap them up. Purestrains came in and deleted a full 15 man Death Company unit (thank you Iconward!) and likewise wrapped up a scout unit. Killed both in his turn, and then repeated in my turn. Also ate a character to get some more CPs, and by my turn 3 I reached his Tank Commanders and wrapped them up, before falling back from one a turn to mind control the Knight into. The Castellan stomped around for 3 turns and ended up killing all 38 genestealers, but he never recovered from me holding more objectives for six turns. Second game was less tanks, but a whole lot more guard. This time I went first, and got a good turn of dakkafex shooting in to clear out the front line of infantry before the Castellan killed all five. Again, I used large kraken stealer blobs to hit a unit turn 1, shoot off and fight again to wrap infantry units that couldnt fall back. Smash captains and mephiston went in to try to clear them out, but with an invuln they never do much to single wound models. Smites and the patriarch in melee cleared them out. Game ended with the castellan falling back from my stealers and running into my lines to kill two characters a turn. It hurt, but at this point I had scattered units onto all four objectives and very comfortably was holding a lead so I just smited him until turn six ended with the knight hanging on to a few wounds.
Lessons: I have had a lot of games now against Castellan + CP friends with lots of screens. It means the Castellan is hard to get to, but it also ensures that fast Stealer units can continually wrap up models to deny shooting. You cant beat a Castellan at its game with Nids, we will absolutely lose the shooting battle. Deny its strengths and have characters that it cant reliably target floating around. Missiles hurt, but its only two turns. Also, getting the horror onto it is amazing when it works.
Excellent post jifel, thanks for the great insight. You mind sharing your list?
Yep. Been running this for two months now and haven't really had reason to change it. Might tweak a little though given how many Castellans I am seeing now. Played in two RTTs the last two weekends, four of six games were against Castellan and support!
For my question, does anyone else have trouble justifying making using any other specialists other than Combat, Heavy, Comms, or Veteran? Doesn’t feel like the other specializations bring much to Tyranid Kill Teams.
To be fair, that is almost all of the specializations available to Tyranids with exception to Scout. Tyranids don't have access to Medic, Zealot, or Sniper.
I think Scout might be useful on a Lictor in general (doubles down on the bonus -1 to hit and adds more mobility options to get them through terrain) or as part of a gunline for the reroll 1's to hit via tactic or ability. It looks like it would be a stronger specialization in campaign play than a quick matched play skirmish though, since several of its abilities are tied to campaign mechanics. The others are more straightforward in their use.
Yep. Been running this for two months now and haven't really had reason to change it. Might tweak a little though given how many Castellans I am seeing now. Played in two RTTs the last two weekends, four of six games were against Castellan and support!
Very nice! If Knights keep popping up maybe some Hammers, or drills could become a "thing". Though a Might boosted Brood of Purestrains can do a lot of damage.
If knights keep popping up i think that we should re evaluate our shock guards. Against a knight with 4++ they sport a score of 33,65 points per wound, where an impaler guard is 72,72.
6 shock guards cost 234 points and in double fire take 14,7 wounds from a knight. They are also good against DE.
Yep. Been running this for two months now and haven't really had reason to change it. Might tweak a little though given how many Castellans I am seeing now. Played in two RTTs the last two weekends, four of six games were against Castellan and support!
Yep. Been running this for two months now and haven't really had reason to change it. Might tweak a little though given how many Castellans I am seeing now. Played in two RTTs the last two weekends, four of six games were against Castellan and support!
Out of curiosity why are the dakka fexes kraken?
I'm all about speed. Jormungandrs unwillingness to advance frustrated me, it felt like it trapped me into not advancing to get in range so I abandoned it completely. I prefer the options of kraken and the ability to get the 18" Devourers in range more reliably, because kraken makes their average threat range about 30". And they never sit still for Kronos lol. A lot of the other top Nid players take Deathspitters, which I believe is a trap. The speed of kraken compensates for the range lost.
I run all my Dakkafexes Kraken too, I even take AG on them when I can afford it. They have 7" movespeed and the ability to run and gun and STILL hit on a 4+ thanks to senses, giving them the best roll you can get and a +1 with AG means they are moving 13-14" a turn and can get you firing away with every Dakkafex as quickly as possible. Have a bunch of lightning fast KrakkaFexes feels really strong, and can really throw people for a loop too as a bonus (everyone else runs slow fexes and they've been slow as hell for years).
I mostly only run Kraken and i have Dakka Fex's, Hive guard, etc.. I could run a spearhead of Kronos but i just dont care enough, when i get my new Hive guard (I still have 9 of the old ones) i will paint them different so i can have Kraken and Kronos ones.
SHUPPET wrote: I run all my Dakkafexes Kraken too, I even take AG on them when I can afford it. They have 7" movespeed and the ability to run and gun and STILL hit on a 4+ thanks to senses, giving them the best roll you can get and a +1 with AG means they are moving 13-14" a turn and can get you firing away with every Dakkafex as quickly as possible. Have a bunch of lightning fast KrakkaFexes feels really strong, and can really throw people for a loop too as a bonus (everyone else runs slow fexes and they've been slow as hell for years).
Do you give your Fexes anything in the way of close combat biomorphs then? I like Acid Maw, but it gets in the way of Enhanced Senses. But I feel that without any CC protection they'll just get bogged down (of course, being Kraken they can just fallback, so maybe it's not such a big deal)
SHUPPET wrote: I run all my Dakkafexes Kraken too, I even take AG on them when I can afford it. They have 7" movespeed and the ability to run and gun and STILL hit on a 4+ thanks to senses, giving them the best roll you can get and a +1 with AG means they are moving 13-14" a turn and can get you firing away with every Dakkafex as quickly as possible. Have a bunch of lightning fast KrakkaFexes feels really strong, and can really throw people for a loop too as a bonus (everyone else runs slow fexes and they've been slow as hell for years).
Do you give your Fexes anything in the way of close combat biomorphs then? I like Acid Maw, but it gets in the way of Enhanced Senses. But I feel that without any CC protection they'll just get bogged down (of course, being Kraken they can just fallback and shoot again, so maybe it's not such a big deal)
Also, Bonus points for the term "KrakkaFexes"
Yes! I use Bone Maces everytime. It bumps them up to 5 attacks, and they hit on 3+ on the charge, and that mace let's them chip at Tanks... and it's really cheap, and the Fex covers a lot of ground with the upgrades.
If running them like this, and if you aren't using Sporocysts (I have a Malanthrope in my list atm), I also have been liking Spine Banks. With 5-6 Fexen, it's up to 24 extra S5 shots, hitting 3+ thanks to Senses, for just 10 pts, thaat can shoot while in CC. And you have the speed to get use of them, even if not consistently, and it's really not a significant tax in the games where you don't get to use it.
Also thanks! Cracklings from Starcraft was a term for Zerglings with both speed upgrades, so KrakkaFexes just makes sense as the perfect term for Dakkafexes with Kraken + AG speed boosts! Haha
So concerning these Schockguards against imperial Knights: Would you drop them via Tyrannocyte, use the tunnel of jormungandr or just run them up the field?
Hmm. KrakkaFexes lose the usual dakkafex melee issue by just walking away, enabling BS3+ to fire at full effect as long as you don’t get enveloped. 5pts for a cheeky tail swipe is fair. Goooood call.
lindsay40k wrote: Hmm. KrakkaFexes lose the usual dakkafex melee issue by just walking away, enabling BS3+ to fire at full effect as long as you don’t get enveloped. 5pts for a cheeky tail swipe is fair. Goooood call.
Astmeister wrote:So concerning these Schockguards against imperial Knights: Would you drop them via Tyrannocyte, use the tunnel of jormungandr or just run them up the field?
While I like Jormungandr, the Tyrannocyte is probably going to be the easier to option to incorporate into most lists, plus it has a huge base to block movement with. Also it leaves open the ability to hide an important monster off table for the first turn if you really need to keep it safe (Swarmy being the most obvious choice).
lindsay40k wrote: Hmm. Not sold on it, then. Don’t like to invest heavily in short-ranged firepower that can’t deal with modest tarpits and duelists.
To be fair, after a barrage of Brainleech fire there probably won't be much of a potential tarpit left. Being able to withdraw and charge works rather well with Living Battering Ram as well.
On a related note, has anyone had much table time with the other Carnifex variants? I have a trio of Stonecrushers sitting on my painting desk and another one without arms that could be converted to a Screamer Killer or Thornback.
Hmm. Not sold on it, then. Don’t like to invest heavily in short-ranged firepower that can’t deal with modest tarpits and duelists.
Well, fair enough. That's what the Dakkafex is no matter which Hive Fleet you run, I think KrakkaFexes are just the best way to let them perform their role (although it's to preference). I generally take other units to screen for them.
Strat_N8 wrote:
On a related note, has anyone had much table time with the other Carnifex variants? I have a trio of Stonecrushers sitting on my painting desk and another one without arms that could be converted to a Screamer Killer or Thornback.
I HAVENT played them, but I feel like Stonecrushers are incredibly powerful. With the wrecking Ball they can just shred both infantry and tanks. 2" range is massive, that's like 4 rows if they surround you, and although I think a good opponent will really mitigate that if they don't want to lose the infantry, it does mean they can't pile in and surround you or chip you down too much, and you'll always be killing a few. I really want to run Stonecrushers but I can't justify buying them, might proxy my current ones in a friendly game and see how a bunch of them perform with an Old One Eye in there with them.
Astmeister wrote: So concerning these Schockguards against imperial Knights: Would you drop them via Tyrannocyte, use the tunnel of jormungandr or just run them up the field?
Hmm. Not sold on it, then. Don’t like to invest heavily in short-ranged firepower that can’t deal with modest tarpits and duelists.
Well, fair enough. That's what the Dakkafex is no matter which Hive Fleet you run, I think KrakkaFexes are just the best way to let them perform their role (although it's to preference). I generally take other units to screen for them.
Not exactly - there’s a choice to be made of head. BS3+ or bio-Plasma add to the dakka, but acid maw adds versatility and removes some big vulnerabilities. And if you’re playing Kraken Pinball, it’s even nastier.
Astmeister wrote: I would like to have a use for my Tyrannocyte and the Schockguard might be the only proper way to play it.
Why not 30 Devourer Gants, or a Max squad of Deathspitter/Venom Cannon Warriors? Or even Pyrovores. All of them make good deep strike targets.
Edit: Well you can also do Zoanthropes? Cant you do all 12 of them and DS them and use the stratagem? Its been a long time since i read the rules for the Tpod
Edit: NOPE, its 1 unit, so IDK about it, i think they best use for it would be shockguard against Knights or still Pyrovores for Anti Infantry. I wish there was a cheap way to DS a bunc of small 1 model units like Pyrovovres, i would get some if i could do that.
That still takes CP and some Tyrgons/Mawlocks and that is not cheap. I can just take a Trygon in general to do that i dont need Jormungandr. Jmung just makes it so Ravagers/Mawlocks can do it too.
To bad our 1 and only 1 transport is limited to 1 unit.
Pyrovores don't do enough damage to justify the high price for the Cyte. Warriors might be okay. 30 gants does not work. It is restricted to 20 models. Zoans are also fine, but psi can be blocked easily.
Astmeister wrote: Pyrovores don't do enough damage to justify the high price for the Cyte. Warriors might be okay. 30 gants does not work. It is restricted to 20 models. Zoans are also fine, but psi can be blocked easily.
If it was 90pts at least instead of 123pts it might be more useful, being BS 5 and can move isnt that good, espeically when we can use actually good monsters to DS units, its only good quality is it can transport 1 MC, but being a huge cost for that is pointsless when you could have Wing Tyrants DS, walking Htyrants/SLDS via traits, so its really only good for 4-5 MC's, Fex's, Toxicrene, Exocrine, Tervigon, Maleceptor, Haruspex. And most of those are tough enough you dont need the Pod, or cheap enough that you dont care (Fex's).
It just needs to be cheaper.
That is one thing i dont have, a Maleceptor or Haruspex, i should get a couple, they seem fun for semi-comp.
A maleceptor leviathan rushing the enemy lines with overdrive is borderline competitive. Drop mortal wounds on the enemy, screws the enemy psy phase and is though and cheap enough to be a distraction fex.
Astmeister wrote: Pyrovores don't do enough damage to justify the high price for the Cyte. Warriors might be okay. 30 gants does not work. It is restricted to 20 models. Zoans are also fine, but psi can be blocked easily.
It’s just a unit right? They took out the 20 model restriction with 8th didn’t they?
Astmeister wrote: Pyrovores don't do enough damage to justify the high price for the Cyte. Warriors might be okay. 30 gants does not work. It is restricted to 20 models. Zoans are also fine, but psi can be blocked easily.
It’s just a unit right? They took out the 20 model restriction with 8th didn’t they?
It 1 unit of 20 models or 1 MC with 14 wounds or less
Tho, someone somewhere else brought up, a unit of Warriors max squad of 9 could do well in a Pod, Bring in the Prime via Trygon or something else if you wanted the prime near.
9 with Deathspitters and AG's/BS's giving its +1 to charge with CP re-roll, thats a ton of damage that you could do.
Astmeister wrote: All of the above mentioned take a couple of turns killing a knight. And tyranids do not have the option for Las cans in every squad.
We can focus fire down a Knight in 1 turn, we have stratagems for MW's +1D, etc... Hiveguard or Exocrine shooting twice is pretty powerful, Shockguard shooting twice could easily kill a knight alone. If I remember its average of 12 shots, 8 get through 4 damage from those 8 and 4 MW's if you dont roll any 6's, so 8-9 wounds (going off memory and really fast math). So you could do 16-18 wounds with just 1 unit, sure its la 230pts unit and you used 2CP, but its well worth it to kill a 400pts+ unit lol, well besides the Knight Castellan, but at least 1 unit can take away 50-75pts of its wounds (they will most likely use the +1save stratagem)
As with everything nid, don't find a single way to do that. Nids are an army of soft counters.
You drop a knight like you reach any other objective, with multiple soft counters together. Take some wounds with smites, take some wounds with shooting, take some wounds with stratagems, take the last wounds in assault. Done.
Sure, a knight is something that requires the full attention of your whole army to go down in a turn, but that is normal when you consider how many points they do cost.
That is, if we are talking about a knight like the gallant that wants to get close and personal, because i don't feel that the shooting version of a knight is something to prioritize. Castellans may be a problem, but that's what the horror is for.
Astmeister wrote: All of the above mentioned take a couple of turns killing a knight. And tyranids do not have the option for Las cans in every squad.
We can focus fire down a Knight in 1 turn, we have stratagems for MW's +1D, etc... Hiveguard or Exocrine shooting twice is pretty powerful, Shockguard shooting twice could easily kill a knight alone. If I remember its average of 12 shots, 8 get through 4 damage from those 8 and 4 MW's if you dont roll any 6's, so 8-9 wounds (going off memory and really fast math). So you could do 16-18 wounds with just 1 unit, sure its la 230pts unit and you used 2CP, but its well worth it to kill a 400pts+ unit lol, well besides the Knight Castellan, but at least 1 unit can take away 50-75pts of its wounds (they will most likely use the +1save stratagem)
Or a OOE/Stone Crusher Fex lol.
Exocrine can't shoot twice, also he may as well be Warriors firing Deathspitters against a unit with T8 and 4+ invul.
double shooting shock guard should do 21 wounds i think
double shooting impaler guard does just 8
you could combine enough things and maybe do it i guess
Hmm. Not sold on it, then. Don’t like to invest heavily in short-ranged firepower that can’t deal with modest tarpits and duelists.
I used to run kraken with them - if you give them acid maw instead of enhanced sense you get 4 lets hits in shooting but get 4 really powerful CC attacks and 1 not so bad attack with your bone mace - plus that 4+ to mortal wound every time you charge. Its the same prices so YMMV. If they have a -1 to hit hitting on 5's really blows or if you have to advance to shoot. However if you get 3-4 of these guys going ham you can do a lot of damage to all kinds of units.
These days I am running leviathan. The 6+++ is just too good to pass up.
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Astmeister wrote: So is there any reliable source to drop an Imperial Knight or is everyone just ignoring these things? Mortal Wounds?
heavy venom cannons do just fine - just enough AP to make them waste CP to go to a 4+ and 3 flat damage and you wound on 3's. A HT with HVCPS and smite can do reasonable damage in a turn against one to. In CC he will get no save when you roll a 6 on MRC and wounding on 5's base means you should roll 2 6's on average. That's 8 damage automatic if you take toxin sacs (well its a little less than 2 6's on average but it's close) If you have ymarl factor both +1 T and +1A help you a lot vs a knight too. You could always bring Tfex as well but I think knights are just going to gib him to easy - If you shoot first though you could do considerable damage.
I'm glad it did well. If he went undefeated, how did he place?
I'm glad you'all had some good games, there seems to be a great deal of unhappiness about the way things were run. 
If you have the time, I am sure I'd like to read a snop. of how your games went. 
Tah!
)
One thing I would do differant is having some plain old Gaunts. Even your Termagants are "elite" "Devilgants". I think a Brood of Hormagaunts will make things much better. 
