I know this concept. But not all armies can pull it of so easily, because they don't have them.
Besides why is everyone crying that he lost first turn deep strike, when it is so easy to screen it anyways?
There are still some possibilities for t1 charges with nids:
- Swarmlord
- Kraken strat
- Hive Crone
- Harpyie
You might even see armies which are not totally made of Flyrants + 60 Genestealers. For me this is a good thing.
Tinkering with a list, mostly models that interest me to paint. Been looking at a Xenos army option for a while as I only have Imperial stuff. I wanted to do Nidzilla back when the Codex hit and I think maybe now I can maybe pull it off somewhat.
Here was a list I am tinkering with and hopefully the sageful folks here can steer me in a good direction:
Heavy:
Carnifex
2x Twin Devourers with BLW, Enhanced Senses
[105]
Carnifex
2x Twin Devourers with BLW, Enhanced Senses
[105]
Carnifex
2x Twin Devourers with BLW, Enhanced Senses
[105]
[609]
[1991]
10 CP
Straight-forward list with an emphasis on the gun-toting big critters. I can screen with the Rippers or hold them back and toss them out to take distant objectives (the turn before they auto-die).
Should be legal! Still getting my head around 'Nids too, so if I am goofing on obvious options, let me know!
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Tinkering with a list, mostly models that interest me to paint. Been looking at a Xenos army option for a while as I only have Imperial stuff. I wanted to do Nidzilla back when the Codex hit and I think maybe now I can maybe pull it off somewhat.
Here was a list I am tinkering with and hopefully the sageful folks here can steer me in a good direction:
Heavy:
Carnifex
2x Twin Devourers with BLW, Enhanced Senses
[105]
Carnifex
2x Twin Devourers with BLW, Enhanced Senses
[105]
Carnifex
2x Twin Devourers with BLW, Enhanced Senses
[105]
[609]
[1991]
10 CP
Straight-forward list with an emphasis on the gun-toting big critters. I can screen with the Rippers or hold them back and toss them out to take distant objectives (the turn before they auto-die).
Should be legal! Still getting my head around 'Nids too, so if I am goofing on obvious options, let me know!
You need more chaff, 3 squads of rippers will literally evaporate. I'd suggest cutting a unit of hive guard for either one big blob of termagants or several small blobs, then stick the two remaining hive guard units into one big squad to get the most use out of single minded annihilation.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Tinkering with a list, mostly models that interest me to paint. Been looking at a Xenos army option for a while as I only have Imperial stuff. I wanted to do Nidzilla back when the Codex hit and I think maybe now I can maybe pull it off somewhat.
Here was a list I am tinkering with and hopefully the sageful folks here can steer me in a good direction:
Heavy:
Carnifex
2x Twin Devourers with BLW, Enhanced Senses
[105]
Carnifex
2x Twin Devourers with BLW, Enhanced Senses
[105]
Carnifex
2x Twin Devourers with BLW, Enhanced Senses
[105]
[609]
[1991]
10 CP
Straight-forward list with an emphasis on the gun-toting big critters. I can screen with the Rippers or hold them back and toss them out to take distant objectives (the turn before they auto-die).
Should be legal! Still getting my head around 'Nids too, so if I am goofing on obvious options, let me know!
You need more chaff, 3 squads of rippers will literally evaporate. I'd suggest cutting a unit of hive guard for either one big blob of termagants or several small blobs, then stick the two remaining hive guard units into one big squad to get the most use out of single minded annihilation.
Is chaff going to be as vital as it was? Was it for speed-bumping or keeping back alphas? Because I am going to be going full Beta rules and don't expect alphas to be as big of an issue.
But I do like the idea of maximizing the Hive Guard for the strategem. Similar to what I do with my Dakkastelans in AdMech. Could cut a 'Fex to make some more room for chaff, too.
Ok, so. I've done some thinking, some theorizing and some play testing.
Whilst our Alphastrike has been neutered.
We still have other options.
We have many viable ways to play, but really only two against an optimized list.
I play in a competitive environment. Everyone around here runs/attends tournaments with multiple armies and are WAAC type of players.
So, I have no option but to run an optimized list myself. Otherwise, I am as well setting up my Nids, and then removing them in fistfulls in turn 1. Its happened before.
So, we either saturate the table with high T models. Carnies and the like.
Or, we cover the table in T3 1W models with untargetable HQ's.
All their heavy weapons are pointless then.
So. My current work in progress is as follows.
I'll start with my method/thoughts and then provide the list at the bottom.
My thoughts.
The battalion will be Kronos for a heavy psycher meta, or Levi for everything else. 6+++ is invaluable for the list.
The Outrider is undetermined.
The Vanguard is GSC.
So, thoughts.
I deploy the spores and GSC aggressively. Using CP and the Primus to re-roll and get good positioning on deployment.
The gants and Malanthrope will string out to cover a very large area. But they will all benefit from synapse and -1 to hit.
The zoans will be played aggressively but behind gants.
Ultimately, I have no way of dealing with High toughness models outside of MW's. Which is fine.
Once the infantry is dead. The big guns cannot make enough of a dent in my hoard Ill then hold objectives through weight of numbers.
The GSC and Spores create an immediate threat for my opponent which forces them to direct fire while i advance up the table to steal objectives.
There is an option to split 1 unit of gants into 3 units of 10 for objective holding back field.
At the start of the game I will have around 222 bodys on the table at 1W each. Yes, they are easy to kill. But, as above. Once their infantry is neutered, I am more or less impervious to the big guns.
Any comments?
So far, in my single test game against marines, my opponent had no idea what to do with his Predator or heavy weapons teams. The look on his face
We calculated. With the 6+, 6+++ and -1 to hit. Even if every bullet hit, and then rolled to wound + saves. He couldnt kill my army.
He wasn't happy.
Well, in my test game. With the Primus re-rolls and the 1cp stratagem. I had two units with the Primus deploying 9" away, moving and advancing before T1.
I got T1 and I ate a unit of marines with each squad of Genestealers at full strength and hitting on 2's with the Primus.
After that, my opponent fired EVERYTHING at genestealers. By the end of his T2, I had about 10 left and he had his heavy weapons teams and tanks.
At this point he knew the game was lost as he still had 170 gants to kill plus characters.
His main problem was bunkering behind his marines and scouts. Having them close together let me keep them all in combat, minimising S4 firepower.
I think it went well. If we played again, we will this weekend. Same lists.
He will deploy differently after our post game discussion. Basicly 1k of my army killed about 1k of his army. Fairs fair. But the stuff that was left couldnt kill 170 gants.
I didnt really 'need' speed. Because I got good deployment. It wont always work that way obviously.
If I got bad deployment, I think the end result would have been similar. He cant actually table me. Even with perfect rolling. So...
It's really not. It's a decent utility piece and tough enough to absorb a lot of fire power, particularly in cover and or FNP
The Tervigon is OK, but it seems to be balanced for narrative play, where it can freely spawn Termagants each turn.
In matched play it is wayyyyy overpriced.
It does nothing but cast a single psi power each turn and buff some gaunts lightly + synapse. For 70 points you get a HQ that can do two psi powers, also synapse, can't be targeted.
So to make up the difference in points.. you need to spawn a lot of Termagants. That's hard to do, because in 1500+ games, opponents will simply take out all 30 of them at a time and there is nothing you can spawn...
It can only absorb fire power if your opponent shoots at it, but why should he do that while there are literally any other targets in range?
SHUPPET wrote: havent played since last dex, what changed?
8th edition is rolling along. Nids wonn some tournaments with flyrant spam, flyrant spam + mawlocks, Flyrants + Hivbe guards, and some mixed listst. Eldar reapers and pox walker lists have dominated.
GW has responded with point increases to keep down broken units. But they do not like any of the best practises, smite spam etc. With all the nerfs in play it is expected for gunline armies to do well again. We will see. I expect such a trend to get some nerfed rules in 6 months.
Ok, so. I've done some thinking, some theorizing and some play testing.
Whilst our Alphastrike has been neutered.
We still have other options.
We have many viable ways to play, but really only two against an optimized list.
I play in a competitive environment. Everyone around here runs/attends tournaments with multiple armies and are WAAC type of players.
So, I have no option but to run an optimized list myself. Otherwise, I am as well setting up my Nids, and then removing them in fistfulls in turn 1. Its happened before.
So, we either saturate the table with high T models. Carnies and the like.
Or, we cover the table in T3 1W models with untargetable HQ's.
All their heavy weapons are pointless then.
So. My current work in progress is as follows.
I'll start with my method/thoughts and then provide the list at the bottom.
My thoughts.
The battalion will be Kronos for a heavy psycher meta, or Levi for everything else. 6+++ is invaluable for the list.
The Outrider is undetermined.
The Vanguard is GSC.
So, thoughts.
I deploy the spores and GSC aggressively. Using CP and the Primus to re-roll and get good positioning on deployment.
The gants and Malanthrope will string out to cover a very large area. But they will all benefit from synapse and -1 to hit.
The zoans will be played aggressively but behind gants.
Ultimately, I have no way of dealing with High toughness models outside of MW's. Which is fine.
Once the infantry is dead. The big guns cannot make enough of a dent in my hoard Ill then hold objectives through weight of numbers.
The GSC and Spores create an immediate threat for my opponent which forces them to direct fire while i advance up the table to steal objectives.
There is an option to split 1 unit of gants into 3 units of 10 for objective holding back field.
At the start of the game I will have around 222 bodys on the table at 1W each. Yes, they are easy to kill. But, as above. Once their infantry is neutered, I am more or less impervious to the big guns.
Any comments?
So far, in my single test game against marines, my opponent had no idea what to do with his Predator or heavy weapons teams. The look on his face
We calculated. With the 6+, 6+++ and -1 to hit. Even if every bullet hit, and then rolled to wound + saves. He couldnt kill my army.
He wasn't happy.
I aim to please the Hive Mind.
Your List is amazing!
Would you consider swapping some Termagants for Hormagants?
I struggle as it is to get more than 3 turns in, in 8th ed. This army would give me and my opponent 2 turns. I'm kind of a slow player, so that's a problem. ´
Suggestions: Switch Soul Hunger (never does anything on a defensive Neurothrope) for extra synapse range.
Years ago I played 180 gant / gaunt lists and I was accustomed at moving large amounts of gribbles fast. If I try to pull this thing now my opponent will punch me in the face
On the other hand, your other phases except movement are mostly nonexistent so you could spend the extra time moving and then passing your turn.
Why termagants though? If you swap the whole thing for hormagaunts you will get a much, much faster army. Which is -I suppose- what your list wants to do.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Years ago I played 180 gant / gaunt lists and I was accustomed at moving large amounts of gribbles fast. If I try to pull this thing now my opponent will punch me in the face
On the other hand, your other phases except movement are mostly nonexistent so you could spend the extra time moving and then passing your turn.
Why termagants though? If you swap the whole thing for hormagaunts you will get a much, much faster army. Which is -I suppose- what your list wants to do.
If people complain about hordes at the next tourney bc I am gonna punch someone. We cant have flyrants/alpha ds, so we go horde. Then people bitch about slow play. They will learn.
I am going to try a swarm list and test out hyrda. though I have 30 hormies in my list.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Based on the recommendation that I bring at least one sizable chaff unit, I revised my list. Still mostly big stuff, so I am reasonably happy.
Heavy:
Carnifex
2x Twin Devourers with BLW, Enhanced Senses
[105]
Carnifex
2x Twin Devourers with BLW, Enhanced Senses
[105]
Carnifex
2x Twin Devourers with BLW, Enhanced Senses
[105]
[385]
[1995]
Look better? Any more ideas on making it as close to competitive as possible?
Do you foresee not moving the Exo and Tyrannofex much? May want to just go with Kronos for them as well. I would drop 2 rippers from each group; gives you 44 pts, +5 you have left and buy one more Hive Guard to get a nice unit of 6. Other than that looks good. Rippers are meant to park on objectives and hide. Its easier to hide 3 than 5.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Based on the recommendation that I bring at least one sizable chaff unit, I revised my list. Still mostly big stuff, so I am reasonably happy.
Heavy:
Carnifex
2x Twin Devourers with BLW, Enhanced Senses
[105]
Carnifex
2x Twin Devourers with BLW, Enhanced Senses
[105]
Carnifex
2x Twin Devourers with BLW, Enhanced Senses
[105]
[385]
[1995]
Look better? Any more ideas on making it as close to competitive as possible?
Do you foresee not moving the Exo and Tyrannofex much? May want to just go with Kronos for them as well. I would drop 2 rippers from each group; gives you 44 pts, +5 you have left and buy one more Hive Guard to get a nice unit of 6. Other than that looks good. Rippers are meant to park on objectives and hide. Its easier to hide 3 than 5.
That is a fair point on Kronos for the Exo and Tyranno. I was mostly thinking that they would eat a lot of shooting and the added durability would be useful, as they for sure aren't moving - not with their various perks. I can try them both, as they aren't painted to those specific factions.
And that is a damn good idea on the Rippers. Another Hive Guard would be welcome, for sure!
I am running Termies over Hormies because I for every 20 hormies I can get 25 Termies.
Yes, its faster. Yes I'll get up the table faster.
But I also need some ranged capacity. Albeit at 12".
But, it means my entire army is S4.
Instead of 170+ modele being S3.
If I wanted to have hormies. Id give my termies Spine fists. Same amount of attacks in combat and S3 all over for 1pt less.
Not as fast. But I wont have room to fit them all in anyway.
Also, the Neurothropes will be very aggressive for smite use.
So Soul Hunger will be helpful.
Assuming I run Kronos and not Levi.
On another note, I use movement trays.
MDF 25mm cut out. 5 gants per tray and 1.5" gap between each.
My turns are actually REALLY quick.
Movement takes some time. Movement trays speed this up significantly.
Psychic is quick. Having 2 psychers.
Shooting, is non existent. As my weapons are 12" range. Until later in the game atleast.
Combat is a normal combat phase. Tend to have 8 genestealers worth of dice measured out at a time. This way, when he kills some its easy to calculate. Rather than having to count each time.
All about optimising
My strategy is simple too. Kill anything with lots of shots.
Tanks can be ignored. LOS cam be ignored etc. I dont care about hiding from them
What do you think about a balanced 50/50, alpha strike/gunline army? I feel like this is building on the strongest alpha strike and shooty units we have. Its going to hit hard from DS turn 2, and still have a lot of solid shooty units.
Flyrants, 2 mawlocs and rippers are in DS. The other Mawloc is deployed, burries turn one and comes in with the rest turn 2.
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Tyranids) ++
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant: 2x Two Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Wings
Hive Tyrant: 2x Two Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Wings
killerpenguin wrote: What do you think about a balanced 50/50, alpha strike/gunline army? I feel like this is building on the strongest alpha strike and shooty units we have. Its going to hit hard from DS turn 2, and still have a lot of solid shooty units.
Flyrants, 2 mawlocs and rippers are in DS. The other Mawloc is deployed, burries turn one and comes in with the rest turn 2.
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Tyranids) ++
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant: 2x Two Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Wings
Hive Tyrant: 2x Two Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Wings
Depends on the opponent. If your opponent can swarm the table turn 1, you will have a hard time to place your drops outside your own deployment zone.
Had a game two days ago in which i got encastled by necron scarab swarms and wraiths. If you got first turn in addition it is very anoying...
killerpenguin wrote: What do you think about a balanced 50/50, alpha strike/gunline army? I feel like this is building on the strongest alpha strike and shooty units we have. Its going to hit hard from DS turn 2, and still have a lot of solid shooty units.
Flyrants, 2 mawlocs and rippers are in DS. The other Mawloc is deployed, burries turn one and comes in with the rest turn 2.
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Tyranids) ++
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant: 2x Two Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Wings
Hive Tyrant: 2x Two Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Wings
Depends on the opponent. If your opponent can swarm the table turn 1, you will have a hard time to place your drops outside your own deployment zone.
Had a game two days ago in which i got encastled by necron scarab swarms and wraiths. If you got first turn in addition it is very anoying...
Not always the case, but keep this in mind.
That is an issue with alot of beta strike armies, but not a great issue for this list. The mawlocs will get in no matter what, and two of my flyrants are shooty, so the dont depend on getting into combat, sometimes they'd rather stay out of combat. Its actually more of a shooty list with two higly mobile fiering platforms in the dakka flyrands and one CC monster in the WL. The mawlocs are more of a distraction than anything else, they're there to soak up fire and charge shooty units if they survive.
I'm having my first look at the new codex (yeah I know I'm late). Haven't checked what anyone else is doing yet because I wanted to give it a glance before having my opinions possibly influenced by others
Things I noticed:
Warriors seem really good at that price, especially with Prime support.
Carnifexes got some nice options, Dakkafex with enhanced senses seems like a instant choice for me
Neurothropes seem like really cheap, durable synapse that provides psyker support and even heal each other. Including a couple of these seems pretty solid.
Tyrannofex with Rupture Cannon seem better now, not sure how worth the points they would actually be in practice, but it seems like a fun unit.
SHUPPET wrote: havent played since last dex, what changed?
8th edition is rolling along. Nids wonn some tournaments with flyrant spam, flyrant spam + mawlocks, Flyrants + Hivbe guards, and some mixed listst. Eldar reapers and pox walker lists have dominated.
GW has responded with point increases to keep down broken units. But they do not like any of the best practises, smite spam etc. With all the nerfs in play it is expected for gunline armies to do well again. We will see. I expect such a trend to get some nerfed rules in 6 months.
If you’re going to build a dakkafex with ES, don’t use too much glue on the head. You may well find that four more ranged hits aren’t worth the vulnerability to tarpitting. Gave all mine Acid Maws and found it’s a good synergy for a short ranged weapon. Dreadnoughts take power fists for a reason
lindsay40k wrote: If you’re going to build a dakkafex with ES, don’t use too much glue on the head. You may well find that four more ranged hits aren’t worth the vulnerability to tarpitting. Gave all mine Acid Maws and found it’s a good synergy for a short ranged weapon. Dreadnoughts take power fists for a reason
I agree with this ES may seem like a good idea but having the acid maw's decent CC ability with 24 shots at 4+ is wonderful.
Hey guys, what would be optimal load out for Kronos fleet? I am considering, that either fast moving force providing "the deepest shadow", or heavy gunline (with exocrine and tyrannofex). These would come as an addittion to my existing army of behemoth/hydra, so that I could suffle units between games.
Spreelock wrote: Hey guys, what would be optimal load out for Kronos fleet? I am considering, that either fast moving force providing "the deepest shadow", or heavy gunline (with exocrine and tyrannofex). These would come as an addittion to my existing army of behemoth/hydra, so that I could suffle units between games.
A maxed out unit of hive guard double shooting Impaler cannons are undoubtedly my most effective unit.
Spreelock wrote: Hey guys, what would be optimal load out for Kronos fleet? I am considering, that either fast moving force providing "the deepest shadow", or heavy gunline (with exocrine and tyrannofex). These would come as an addittion to my existing army of behemoth/hydra, so that I could suffle units between games.
Biovores and sporocytes are wonderful additions to Kronos as spawned spore mines cast Deepest shadow.....
Spreelock wrote: Hey guys, what would be optimal load out for Kronos fleet? I am considering, that either fast moving force providing "the deepest shadow", or heavy gunline (with exocrine and tyrannofex). These would come as an addittion to my existing army of behemoth/hydra, so that I could suffle units between games.
A maxed out unit of hive guard double shooting Impaler cannons are undoubtedly my most effective unit.
Quoted for truth. Much better than Tyrannofex. Or any other anti tank weaponry in our codex
With the new FAQ, is the Exocrine back? The hype were unreal when the index dropped but now not so much. With the stratagem to +1 damage it can really be devastating against almost everything. Because of the “no-turn-1-deep-strike” its more protected then ever.
Yes, Hive Guards always comes first but is a comeback for the Exocrine possible again? Standing still, with Kronos and strat thats 12shots, hitting on 3+, rerolling 1s and flat 3 damage.. Yes, only S7 but still!
Sneggy wrote: Not really, Nothing the exocrine does Hive guard don't do whilst standing behind a wall.
Similar firepower but the Hive guard are so much more durable whilst doing it.
T8 is good, not being shot is better.
I am rarely able to hide all 6 of the hive guards out of LoS. Additionally, I think hive guard and Exocrines serve different purposes. Hive guard is the default anti tank, whereas exocrine is there to kill specialists, like terminators or land raiders or other pesky stuff with a lot of armor. Also, with the change to the CP for battalions and brigades, I think having multiple different units able to benefit from different stratagems in the same phase (shooting) is better than being a one trick pony. If I have 12-15 CP and only play Hive guard, I can only spend 2 per turn on single minded anihilation. But If I also have an exocrine (or rupturefex) then I can also use the +1 damage stratagem against really fat targets.
My favorite Kronos gunline has all of them (6 hive guards, 1 exocrine, 1 rupturefex, 3 biovores) and fills the core with warrior units featuring deathspitters and venom cannons. With all the changes in deepstrike, I think this kind of list will see more and more play, especially in the beginning, when people will not really expect that a tyranid gunline will be an actual thing, much less a strong one.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plus we have the heal d3 wounds stratagem that can be used with the monsters but not really with hive guard.
All fair points.
I'm playing a hybrid list (kraken brigade, kronos spearhead) and won a tournament with it on saturday. Was running 6,3,3 hive guard as the elites in the kraken part (needed elite slot filling or they'd be kronos obviously)
I was initially playing 6 hive guard and an exocrine and I just found the exocrine dead before it fired a shot if I didnt go first.
SHUPPET wrote: has anyone looked into Hydra Endless Swarm Strategem? Bringing back a fully decked out unit of Warriors for 2CP seems really dope
The problem with those stratagems is that you have to pay "reinforcement points" for units brought back like that. If it was free models, it'd be great.
SHUPPET wrote: has anyone looked into Hydra Endless Swarm Strategem? Bringing back a fully decked out unit of Warriors for 2CP seems really dope
The problem with those stratagems is that you have to pay "reinforcement points" for units brought back like that. If it was free models, it'd be great.
are you entirely sure? It says just to replace a destroyed unit. I think that's different, unless rules have changed. ?
SHUPPET wrote: has anyone looked into Hydra Endless Swarm Strategem? Bringing back a fully decked out unit of Warriors for 2CP seems really dope
The problem with those stratagems is that you have to pay "reinforcement points" for units brought back like that. If it was free models, it'd be great.
are you entirely sure? It says just to replace a destroyed unit. I think that's different, unless rules have changed. ?
Cross-reference ‘set it up as reinforcements’ with BRBpg 214
Automatically Appended Next Post: so really? I have to run an army of negative points, just to spend CP, to get back units I could have included from start except only now they've missed half the match (if I'm lucky), and even then ONLY if my opponent has killed the ENTIRE unit, knowing full well that if he does I can THEN replace? That's unbelievably bad, could that be any worse?
SHUPPET wrote: has anyone looked into Hydra Endless Swarm Strategem? Bringing back a fully decked out unit of Warriors for 2CP seems really dope
I've been using it fairly heavily with swarmy lists, though as mentioned you need to have reinforcement points set aside to use it which limits what you can bring back (I usually set aside ~240-360 points at 1850-2000 with Hydra). That said, the main utility I've found is less that it brings back a unit and more the positioning aspects combined with its ability to bypass the restrictions on reserves (can be used after turn 3 and ignores most of the new beta rules). It can also be used to reduce the amount of infantry you need to bring while still having a fair attrition ability, so 90-odd gaunts can do the work of 120-150. I usually reserve it for Termagants and Genestealers since both can be built with similar point costs and both are quite comfortable outflanking.
Also it is worth noting that it is one of the few things that works with the Pheromone Trail stratagem currently (the other being the Sustained Assault mission special rule and certain scenario's reserve rules). While deploying on the table edges is usually good enough, it has some situational utility. For instance, if a unit of Venomthropes gets shot down you can have them return to the middle of the swarm via Lictor to resume shrouding duties.
Why not just place 150 units on the board and get those shots/charges/board control from the beginning. Got to agree, if it was a free unit it would be worth it, otherwise its not really good for competitive play.
Pheremone Trail Stratagem combo could be good with GS, but you are relying on your opponent to completely wipe a unit and have your lictor in the right place when that happens. Too many variables.
Dynas wrote: Why not just place 150 units on the board and get those shots/charges/board control from the beginning.
Mobility mainly. Endless Swarm allows you to deploy the replacement right into the thick of fighting from a different vector than the main swarm while foot slogging units have to path around other units and terrain before getting in range to contribute.
Dynas wrote: Pheremone Trail Stratagem combo could be good with GS, but you are relying on your opponent to completely wipe a unit and have your lictor in the right place when that happens. Too many variables.
Right, was just pointing it out as something to keep in mind. The natural deployment rules for Endless Swarm are sufficient for most uses and are realistically the main benefit of the stratagem.
This is true too. Last time I ran them I had ~220 odd bodies to start with and ended with ~270 worth. I just used 90 Termagants as an example since they are a cheap target to use Endless Swarm on and can be respawned by any fleet.
Do people really play armies that size? Sounds awful in all ways - hobby and gaming. The thought of moving 200+ models is bad enough, but building and painting them to any reasonable standard? Ick.
That is why I am hellbent on some form of Nidzilla.
90 horma/90 terma was my main list in previous editions. I was so accustommed to moving them that I could do a full movement phase in less than 10 minutes. If you ask me to do it now I will probably choose to shoot myself instead.
And I do have them painted and based in a tabletop standard.
Years ago there was this dude who spent 1 month to paint a WHFB army consisting of 1000+ gnoblars, all with nails/teeth/hair/bodies and basic highlights. He also had a nice blog of it. In the end he went to a tournament with a barrel full of skittles, and made his opponents eat a skittle every time they killed a gnoblar. Some people are really dedicated.
With the changes to tactical reserve, I really recommend stock tyrant gaurd to babysit any of your flyrants and/or swarmlord turn one. the 9 extra wounds will really save your ass more times that you can imagine.
Add leviathan or catalyst to the tyrant gaurd for extra durability.
Unfortunately the durability of Tyrant Guard is not really good, when people ignore the Tyrant and first shoot the guard. Leviathan or Jormungandr are handy in this case.
Yeah, currently I'm thinking our "strongest" builds lie in Kronos Beta striking, Jormangangr tanking Alpha, and Leviathan as the general specialist, as 6++ is always useful. I still build lists around Brigades so I tend to use just one fleet. But with the Boost to Battalions , two+ of those can generate mad amounts of CP
Maybe the future of Nids (and AM) is using CPs to dominate the battlefield. One thing that will help our beta strike is that people who were lazy about screens will be even lazier now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also we can ally in GSC for a fully "street legal" first turn Alpha.
Its a very hoard like army. Would work similar to a green tide focused on shooting instead of melee. Just gum up the middle of the table with gaunts and rippers (keeping your thropes protected) while your backfield does the damage. The lictors should be brought in turn 2 or 3 to hopefully bring in another 30 devilgaunts. The hive guard will double shoot every turn and be effectively immune to getting attacked if you place them properly and you keep your infantry spread out. Add in some heavy threat from meiotic spores coming in at something big with MO.
Its a very hoard like army. Would work similar to a green tide focused on shooting instead of melee. Just gum up the middle of the table with gaunts and rippers (keeping your thropes protected) while your backfield does the damage. The lictors should be brought in turn 2 or 3 to hopefully bring in another 30 devilgaunts. The hive guard will double shoot every turn and be effectively immune to getting attacked if you place them properly and you keep your infantry spread out. Add in some heavy threat from meiotic spores coming in at something big with MO.
How are you getting another 30 Devilgants without reinforcement points set aside?
Yeah, hydra and endless swarm has a serious issues at matched play. If they would make reinforcements free, but increase cp cost, that might solve the problem. Kronos seems very popular now, but I think that they are trying to do something (shooting) that is not what nids are supposed to do.
Using Endless Swarm might have the advantage that you can practically put more than half of your PL in reserve. Because you will have some 100 points in reinforcements.
lmao When I redid the lists I forgot I was saving points for endless.
Well you get the point. you need 240 points for endless swarm, as either a 30 devilgaunts, or 20 genestealers cost the same and those are the 2 best units to bring back.
Alternatively, for fun, you can save points for pyrovores, and go jormagundyr pyrobomb, but the last Big FAQ kinda hurts that one a lot.
Btw, there is one major advantage to endless swarm, even in matched play missions. They allow you to bring in a full sized squad on turn 4/5/6. Granted your handicapping yourself the first 3 turns of the game, but if you can reasonably hold out for that long, your opponent probably wont have the firepower left by that point in the game to deal with a full strength unit. This is a pretty large advantage in missions where end of the game scoring is enforced as even deep strikers will have to be down by turn 3.
So after looking at the dex, I think I've settled on what I'm going to do this edition. I've always been a big fan of the Dakkafex and man they're back to being dope in melee again thanks to Acid Maws? Awesome. I'm going to have to paint up a couple of screamers for this list but I've always ran more Carnifex than most so it's time to make it official. This is entirely theorycraft as I haven't played the new edition of Nids yet, wanted to post it here before I finish building it up.
6 Dakkafex + 2 Screamerkillers for their utility. All 8 are hitting on 3+ around One Eye in combat and thanks to Gorgon, and the entire army will basically be rerolling to wound against anything non-tank because of universally high strength. Tyrannofexes Take the pods to drop 2 bricks up in their face for them to worry about, who start putting out serious hurt if not immediately dealt with. Broodlord is for easily survivable backfield synapse (TFex doesn't need Synapse thanks to auto hits) that can still have an offensive impact, and the Genestealers just fit the points and made sense as the troop, together they should be some nice little CC support.
Might tweak a few things if the need be after playtesting, but the 9 Carnifexes will likely be the core, I've always loved them and I'm just going to go all in on them this edition as they look real nice now. Not sure how drop pod TFexen will go, if they start getting decimated turn 1 then I might swap to Mawlocs or something, and I'll see if I want to adjust synapse or not.
I'd just swap the Tyranno's for sporocysts and mabey the genestealers for hormagaunts instead. Gives you more bodies on the table, mortal wound dealers, and a better screen for your carnies.
1. Outside of Old One Eye, the rest of the Carnifexes dropped to S6 base so they have some difficulty wounding vehicles/monsters in melee outside of Living Battering Ram. You might want to consider Rupture Cannons on the Tyrannofexes to provide more heavy tank popping options or look towards adding some Crushing Claw or Stonecrusher Carnifexes. Alternatively, you could swap the Tyrannofexes out for Haruspexes and have them drop down in the Tyrannocytes instead. Haruspexes are similarly tough (T8 13 wounds vs T8 14 wounds) but are 16 points cheaper per model and bring either 4 S14 attacks or 4D3 S7 attacks (which make extra S14 attacks per kill).
2. Genestealers really want to be taken in larger units due to the Flurry of Claws ability. If all you require is some form of troops to hold an objective, you may be better served with Rippers since they can hide in reserve and deploy where needed. Alternatively, you could go for 4-5 Warriors and swap the Brood Lord for a Tyranid Prime to add more synapse coverage and multi-wound saturation.
I would also use some Hive Guards, if possible in a 6 Man Unit .. with their S8 -2 D3 Damage, not needing a visible target, 36" range and the possiblity of Single Minded Annihilation Stratagem they might be our best Anti-Tank units right now
Depends on the number of enemy vehicles. If you want to pop just one per melee, then the stratagem which gives reroll to wound to a monster is enough to let a screamer killer do a decent job (hit on 2+ rerollable with 5 attacks thanks to OOE).
It's going to be a little difficult to keep all these carnifexes next to OOE. I would go half of them with Acid maw to go with the guy and another pack with enhanced senses to ride alone. This way I could spread them more and keep them relevant at the same time.
On the other hand, what about the 100% melee-fex? 2x scything talons, spore cysts, tusks, adrenal glands. It turns out to be very cheap, and it is pretty devastating on the charge. MW on a 4+, +1 to hit and +1 attack, plus one more from the dual weapons and reroll 1's. You get per charge:
MW on a 4+, 6 attacks with WS 3+ and reroll 1's, str 6. You can sprinkle a couple of them with crushing claws for the really tough targets and have them ride by the OOE to benefit from his aura. If you make them Kraken, you can leave combat and charge again at the same turn to benefit from all the charge bonuses again and again. Oh and with spore cysts, they are not going down any time soon.
Deploy Swarmlord, 2x Hormagaunt units, triple Zoanthropes and the Hive Guard. Swarmlord can, I believe, Hive Commander itself up to keep pace with the Hormagaunts. Zoanthropes will advance and then start blasting out Smites, as well as probably Catalyst and Onslaught. Hive Tyrants will have Paroxysm and Scream. Hive Guard should shoot stuff up from behind LoS blocking terrain.
Mawlocs, Tyrants and Termagants w/ Pod arrive T2 as a big old Beta strike. The Mawlocs can come in tight to the enemy, the Tyrants don't necessarily need to and are nicely mobile. The Termagants and 'Cyte can toss out a fair amount of firepower - I think they would want to come in on top of an objective and just hold onto it.
Deploy Swarmlord, 2x Hormagaunt units, triple Zoanthropes and the Hive Guard. Swarmlord can, I believe, Hive Commander itself up to keep pace with the Hormagaunts. Zoanthropes will advance and then start blasting out Smites, as well as probably Catalyst and Onslaught. Hive Tyrants will have Paroxysm and Scream. Hive Guard should shoot stuff up from behind LoS blocking terrain.
Mawlocs, Tyrants and Termagants w/ Pod arrive T2 as a big old Beta strike. The Mawlocs can come in tight to the enemy, the Tyrants don't necessarily need to and are nicely mobile. The Termagants and 'Cyte can toss out a fair amount of firepower - I think they would want to come in on top of an objective and just hold onto it.
Is there a specific reason why the spearhead is behemouth? May kronos for the anti-psyker or Jormagunder for the +1 save on the mawlocs
Automatically Appended Next Post: Is the Hive Crone more viable now for the T1 charge? Like the model... but cant make myself use it because its so bad for the points.
Deploy Swarmlord, 2x Hormagaunt units, triple Zoanthropes and the Hive Guard. Swarmlord can, I believe, Hive Commander itself up to keep pace with the Hormagaunts. Zoanthropes will advance and then start blasting out Smites, as well as probably Catalyst and Onslaught. Hive Tyrants will have Paroxysm and Scream. Hive Guard should shoot stuff up from behind LoS blocking terrain.
Mawlocs, Tyrants and Termagants w/ Pod arrive T2 as a big old Beta strike. The Mawlocs can come in tight to the enemy, the Tyrants don't necessarily need to and are nicely mobile. The Termagants and 'Cyte can toss out a fair amount of firepower - I think they would want to come in on top of an objective and just hold onto it.
Is there a specific reason why the spearhead is behemouth? May kronos for the anti-psyker or Jormagunder for the +1 save on the mawlocs
That is why I asked for advice on Hive Fleet options. Wasn't really sure what would have the best synergy. They will be close enough that re-rolling charges probably won't matter and can usually just be CP'd to success. Kronos only offers the psyker strategem, but the adaptation doesn't really benefit the detachment. Nor does Jormungandr as much, since they are CC units that want to be charging. I posited Behemoth or Kraken because they would theoretically benefit the detachment as a whole. Leviathan maybe useful too, just for an added layer of durability.
Harpies and Hive Crones are much more useful now, much like Heldrakes, for charging into a bunch of tanks and clogging them up. Their shooting and melee are still pretty bad but they have the wounds to eat up overwatch and the base to multi assault everything that you don’t want knocking down your important stuff for a turn. I prefer harpies in my spore mine list just to choke up more of the board with spores.
Might just be formatting, but are those 3 individual Zoanthropes or one unit of 3 Zoanthropes? Zoanthrope broods need a minimum of 3 models and really want to have at least 4 models to unlock their brood bonus. I'd probably forgo upgrades on the Mawlocs. They really aren't there to fight so much as disrupt and tie things down for other units and neither of the biomorphs are hugely beneficial to them (Adrenal Glands are mostly irrelevant since they tend to be in the thick of things post arrival and Toxin Sacs aren't especially helpful due to the lack of AP on their attacks).
The biggest "issue" I see with the list is that it doesn't really feel like a beta strike list so much as one tailored for board control. It has a lot of highly mobile units and disruption tools but relatively light killing power. It isn't really going to win based on a crippling counter punch so much as the ability to pin down enemy assets while aiming to dominate on objectives. Not a bad thing mind you.
That is why I asked for advice on Hive Fleet options. Wasn't really sure what would have the best synergy. They will be close enough that re-rolling charges probably won't matter and can usually just be CP'd to success. Kronos only offers the psyker strategem, but the adaptation doesn't really benefit the detachment. Nor does Jormungandr as much, since they are CC units that want to be charging. I posited Behemoth or Kraken because they would theoretically benefit the detachment as a whole. Leviathan maybe useful too, just for an added layer of durability.
Jormundgandr is actually (and appropriately) good for Mawlocs since the turn they arrive they are forbidden from charging, so having a 2+ makes them an even more obnoxious fire magnet than usual. Main problem though is that it does nothing for the winged Tyrants beyond maybe their unique Warlord Trait.
I think out of all of the adaptations Leviathan is probably the only one that really synergies with your list. There are quite a few models with Fly that can be used to set of their stratagem and quite a bit of synapse creatures to benefit from the adaptation itself. Plus, the Leviathan warlord trait is fairly good on a Hive Tyrant (one free reroll per round).
Might just be formatting, but are those 3 individual Zoanthropes or one unit of 3 Zoanthropes? Zoanthrope broods need a minimum of 3 models and really want to have at least 4 models to unlock their brood bonus. I'd probably forgo upgrades on the Mawlocs. They really aren't there to fight so much as disrupt and tie things down for other units and neither of the biomorphs are hugely beneficial to them (Adrenal Glands are mostly irrelevant since they tend to be in the thick of things post arrival and Toxin Sacs aren't especially helpful due to the lack of AP on their attacks).
The biggest "issue" I see with the list is that it doesn't really feel like a beta strike list so much as one tailored for board control. It has a lot of highly mobile units and disruption tools but relatively light killing power. It isn't really going to win based on a crippling counter punch so much as the ability to pin down enemy assets while aiming to dominate on objectives. Not a bad thing mind you.
That is why I asked for advice on Hive Fleet options. Wasn't really sure what would have the best synergy. They will be close enough that re-rolling charges probably won't matter and can usually just be CP'd to success. Kronos only offers the psyker strategem, but the adaptation doesn't really benefit the detachment. Nor does Jormungandr as much, since they are CC units that want to be charging. I posited Behemoth or Kraken because they would theoretically benefit the detachment as a whole. Leviathan maybe useful too, just for an added layer of durability.
Jormundgandr is actually (and appropriately) good for Mawlocs since the turn they arrive they are forbidden from charging, so having a 2+ makes them an even more obnoxious fire magnet than usual. Main problem though is that it does nothing for the winged Tyrants beyond maybe their unique Warlord Trait.
I think out of all of the adaptations Leviathan is probably the only one that really synergies with your list. There are quite a few models with Fly that can be used to set of their stratagem and quite a bit of synapse creatures to benefit from the adaptation itself. Plus, the Leviathan warlord trait is fairly good on a Hive Tyrant (one free reroll per round).
Darn. Thought Zoanthropes were 1+. That screw up my list a bit. Will have to adjust with some other filler unit. Probably just do Rippers or something. Should be fine without them for Synapse. And I see your point about it not being as much about being a turn two glass cannon - or "Beta Strike". More meant that it really lands on T2, as all my units should be on the opponent by then.
I do like Leviathan for the list. The added durability seems worth it when I am in the opponent's face and likely eating a load of shooting. The strategem is a decent perk too.
Spreelock wrote: Yeah, hydra and endless swarm has a serious issues at matched play. If they would make reinforcements free, but increase cp cost, that might solve the problem. Kronos seems very popular now, but I think that they are trying to do something (shooting) that is not what nids are supposed to do.
Tyranids have always been a hybrid army, with surprising amounts of shooting. It is one of the odd things that make them fun.
Kronos is popular because it brings psychic denial and shooting, and can be splashed in a way that compliments other Hive Fleets. Aggressively played deeps striking Kronos Rippers combined with an aggressive Kronos warlord Neurothrope can do a lot to limit casting, shutting down key spells, Hive Guard and Biovores are strong (even after the cost increase), and the core Kronos battalion (3x3 Ripper, 2x Neuro) is less than 240 points. Lots of utility there.
So I am re-working my previous list with the Mawlocs and was curious what folks thought about the viability of deploying them T1, then opting to Burrow in your movement phase. Mostly I am leaning towards this because I can't seem to keep half my army off table easily and this would open up to a larger T2 arrival.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: So I am re-working my previous list with the Mawlocs and was curious what folks thought about the viability of deploying them T1, then opting to Burrow in your movement phase. Mostly I am leaning towards this because I can't seem to keep half my army off table easily and this would open up to a larger T2 arrival.
Thoughts?
I too plan on doing this. Haven't actually played it yet, but it seems like a good option.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: So I am re-working my previous list with the Mawlocs and was curious what folks thought about the viability of deploying them T1, then opting to Burrow in your movement phase. Mostly I am leaning towards this because I can't seem to keep half my army off table easily and this would open up to a larger T2 arrival.
Thoughts?
I too plan on doing this. Haven't actually played it yet, but it seems like a good option.
My big concern is eating a full round of shooting before I can burrow, then another one when I pop up. This seems like a potentially awful liability. Not easy to hide a Mawloc behind terrain either. Though I guess you could just put them out of range of enemy guns?
No reason you can't just put them in a corner outside the range of most weapons. Any weapons they do absorb is just weapons not firing at your other stuff.
Zimko wrote: No reason you can't just put them in a corner outside the range of most weapons. Any weapons they do absorb is just weapons not firing at your other stuff.
Yup. Hide them in the corner and/or behind LoS blocking terrain.
Long time lurker, not much of a chatter... but no one is answering my question online.
Before game starts:
Unit of genestealers use Jormungandr stratagem to burrow.
Turn 1 movement:
Previously deployed lictor moves up the field (like normal)
End of turn 1 movement:
Unit of tunneling raveners using Pheromone Trail stratagem tunnel towards the Lictor up field.
Unit of burrowed genestealers then burrow to raveners now on the table.
So my questions are:
1. Can I use pheromone trail turn 1 to tunnel raveners outside my deployment zone?
If so....
2. Can I tunnel a previously burrowed infantry unit (using Jormungandr stratagem) to the just "un-tunneled" raveners?
PartyMuffin wrote: Long time lurker, not much of a chatter... but no one is answering my question online.
Before game starts:
Unit of genestealers use Jormungandr stratagem to burrow.
Turn 1 movement:
Previously deployed lictor moves up the field (like normal)
End of turn 1 movement:
Unit of tunneling raveners using Pheromone Trail stratagem tunnel towards the Lictor up field.
Unit of burrowed genestealers then burrow to raveners now on the table.
So my questions are:
1. Can I use pheromone trail turn 1 to tunnel raveners outside my deployment zone?
If so....
2. Can I tunnel a previously burrowed infantry unit (using Jormungandr stratagem) to the just "un-tunneled" raveners?
This topic is heavaly discussed over at the hive mind forum. You should take this to you make the call, and not on the strategy section.
Until it is in the you make the call section of the forum there will be no discussion of this.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: So I am re-working my previous list with the Mawlocs and was curious what folks thought about the viability of deploying them T1, then opting to Burrow in your movement phase. Mostly I am leaning towards this because I can't seem to keep half my army off table easily and this would open up to a larger T2 arrival.
Thoughts?
I too plan on doing this. Haven't actually played it yet, but it seems like a good option.
My big concern is eating a full round of shooting before I can burrow, then another one when I pop up. This seems like a potentially awful liability. Not easy to hide a Mawloc behind terrain either. Though I guess you could just put them out of range of enemy guns?
They're like 100 pts each. Play 4. Let them shoot at your Mawlocs. Be happy if they do, really. 2 rounds of heavy shooting to down 200 pts worth of monsters? yes please, do it more. Greatest DISTRACTION CARNIFEX of this edition.
Plus on turn two you can charge from 1" away and block a big shooter for the next turn.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: So I am re-working my previous list with the Mawlocs and was curious what folks thought about the viability of deploying them T1, then opting to Burrow in your movement phase. Mostly I am leaning towards this because I can't seem to keep half my army off table easily and this would open up to a larger T2 arrival.
Thoughts?
I too plan on doing this. Haven't actually played it yet, but it seems like a good option.
My big concern is eating a full round of shooting before I can burrow, then another one when I pop up. This seems like a potentially awful liability. Not easy to hide a Mawloc behind terrain either. Though I guess you could just put them out of range of enemy guns?
They're like 100 pts each. Play 4. Let them shoot at your Mawlocs. Be happy if they do, really. 2 rounds of heavy shooting to down 200 pts worth of monsters? yes please, do it more. Greatest DISTRACTION CARNIFEX of this edition.
Plus on turn two you can charge from 1" away and block a big shooter for the next turn.
Can't play 4. Max of 3. And they can't charge on T2, because that is when they would arrive and is thus prohibited by Terror from the Deep - unless I missed a FAQ because we have sooooooo many now to keep up with (side-eye to GW for that nonsense).
But really just putting them out of range seems a good option, but still having to eat a turn of shooting is a pain. Though with three arriving along with a few Flyrants, it might be more than many armies can handle.
No spore cysts in a list with 12 carnifexes? They really are not as durable as you would expect. With spore cysts they will be a major headache for your opponent.
PartyMuffin wrote: Long time lurker, not much of a chatter... but no one is answering my question online.
Before game starts:
Unit of genestealers use Jormungandr stratagem to burrow.
Turn 1 movement:
Previously deployed lictor moves up the field (like normal)
End of turn 1 movement:
Unit of tunneling raveners using Pheromone Trail stratagem tunnel towards the Lictor up field.
Unit of burrowed genestealers then burrow to raveners now on the table.
So my questions are:
1. Can I use pheromone trail turn 1 to tunnel raveners outside my deployment zone?
If so....
2. Can I tunnel a previously burrowed infantry unit (using Jormungandr stratagem) to the just "un-tunneled" raveners?
Hmmm.... yeah hard to say. i think its technically deep striking outside your deployment zone T1. Though it could be similar to da jump or necron decevier strat.
the raveners can't use PT to deploy out of their deployment zone T1 if you're using the beta rules; neither can the stealers use enemy below to do the same.
PT is still non-functional.
that thread on the hive has a whole lot of wishful thinking and not actually reading the stratagem going on.
Can't we all just accept that there is no way around the "no-T1-deepstrike" and together come up with some tactics to overcome this?
If you strategy were to overload the opponent T1, sorry but that doesn't work anymore. It sucks, but a good player tries to overcome it not find a loop-hole.
I my opinion a unit of stealers T1-charge is still very good but the problem is synapse. Before you could deepstrike a flyrant or warriors but that’s not a option anymore. Played around 15 games since the FAQ, only comp-matches, and to get in a 20-strong genestealers coming out of deepstrike is very hard! The footprint is to freakin’ big… especially if the come in with a prime.
Solution?
1. Swarmy may be an option but if focused down, the whole strategy is out the window.
2. Malanthropes is mandatory now, gunlines is very hard to deal with. That extra protection is vital!
3. Hormogaunts flooding the table and tying up things will be very important.
4. Flyrants is still amazing, 3 is enough for you to bring the pain.
5. Dakkafexes is back for real. 115pts is nothing for the pain this creature brings.
While the above is true, remember that the synapse extension from the sporocyst only works if you use the same hive fleet.
If you take kronos sporocysts (which is almost always the ones you should take) then they only extend synapse of kronos models.
The only benefit of taking a Kraken sporocyst would be that the spores it spawns could get the good advance rolls and for synapse. Kronos for rerolling 1's to hit and the deepest shadow stratagem is almost always better and you could even argue leviathan for the FNP is good.
Solution?
1. Swarmy may be an option but if focused down, the whole strategy is out the window.
2. Malanthropes is mandatory now, gunlines is very hard to deal with. That extra protection is vital!
3. Hormogaunts flooding the table and tying up things will be very important.
4. Flyrants is still amazing, 3 is enough for you to bring the pain.
5. Dakkafexes is back for real. 115pts is nothing for the pain this creature brings.
The FAQ is here to stay, adjust or you will lose
So... a balanced list then? Because that is what it looks like it has to be. A mix of fast, chaff units to tie up stuff along with heavy-hitters and support. Basically, GW wants us to play 'Nids like we see them in the fluff.
NackaNid wrote: Can't we all just accept that there is no way around the "no-T1-deepstrike" and together come up with some tactics to overcome this?
If one really wants a turn 1 melee alpha strike one could always run a detachment of Genestealer Cult. A Cult Vanguard with 40 Purestrain Genestealers, two Primus, and a minimum Aberrant unit with hammers is only 896 points (a Hive Fleet equivalent using Trygons to deliver the same number of 'stealers comes to roughly 816 points). Alternatively, a Cult Battalion with two Primus and three 10-strong squads of Acolytes with Rock Saws comes to ~650 points and provides 5 more CP to play with in addition to first turn alpha strike potential.
I my opinion a unit of stealers T1-charge is still very good but the problem is synapse.
The Dominion psychic power solves this to an extent. It has a 36'' reach and lasts until your next psychic phase so the opponent can't disrupt it by killing the closest synapse models.
Malanthropes is mandatory now, gunlines is very hard to deal with. That extra protection is vital!
Having played with both, I think Venomthropes might be a more efficient option for front-line operations. Prior to the FAQ I've been making use of two broods of Venomthropes and they've been working better for me than my lone Malanthrope. For a mere 30 points more, the two Venomthrope broods cover a lot more area with their version of the Spore Cloud and are significantly more dangerous fighters due to their Toxic Lashes (actually a very good weapon - built in rerolls to wound paired with D3 damage per wound and the ability to shoot into combat with the exact same profile as their melee version). The only area I've felt the Malanthrope superior is protecting back-field artillery, since said role wastes the combat capabilities of the Venomthropes and the Malanthrope also provides synapse coverage to keep the guns on target.
Admittedly, I've been making fairly heavy use of Hydra and Jormungander lately. Both naturally prefer Venomthropes due to their stratagems only working with Infantry so they don't have quite as much synergy with the Malanthrope.
Venomthropes can be shot directly, the Malanthrope is a character. That should make the Mal survive much longer. It also has Synapse, so that is another perk.
It also takes up an HQ slot, which we need to do to fill out battalions. If you take a Venomthrope, then they have a 70pt tax because you need to take a Neurothrope for the HQ slot and synapse.
NackaNid wrote: Can't we all just accept that there is no way around the "no-T1-deepstrike" and together come up with some tactics to overcome this?
If you strategy were to overload the opponent T1, sorry but that doesn't work anymore. It sucks, but a good player tries to overcome it not find a loop-hole.
I my opinion a unit of stealers T1-charge is still very good but the problem is synapse. Before you could deepstrike a flyrant or warriors but that’s not a option anymore. Played around 15 games since the FAQ, only comp-matches, and to get in a 20-strong genestealers coming out of deepstrike is very hard! The footprint is to freakin’ big… especially if the come in with a prime.
Solution?
Spoiler:
1. Swarmy may be an option but if focused down, the whole strategy is out the window.
2. Malanthropes is mandatory now, gunlines is very hard to deal with. That extra protection is vital!
3. Hormogaunts flooding the table and tying up things will be very important.
4. Flyrants is still amazing, 3 is enough for you to bring the pain.
5. Dakkafexes is back for real. 115pts is nothing for the pain this creature brings.
The FAQ is here to stay, adjust or you will lose
Shrikes. Running along with the Genestealers.
Edit:
Using Harpys/Crones for turn 1 Assault, now everyone thinks nothing can happen turn1...
NackaNid wrote: Can't we all just accept that there is no way around the "no-T1-deepstrike" and together come up with some tactics to overcome this?
If you strategy were to overload the opponent T1, sorry but that doesn't work anymore. It sucks, but a good player tries to overcome it not find a loop-hole.
I my opinion a unit of stealers T1-charge is still very good but the problem is synapse. Before you could deepstrike a flyrant or warriors but that’s not a option anymore. Played around 15 games since the FAQ, only comp-matches, and to get in a 20-strong genestealers coming out of deepstrike is very hard! The footprint is to freakin’ big… especially if the come in with a prime.
Solution?
Spoiler:
1. Swarmy may be an option but if focused down, the whole strategy is out the window.
2. Malanthropes is mandatory now, gunlines is very hard to deal with. That extra protection is vital!
3. Hormogaunts flooding the table and tying up things will be very important.
4. Flyrants is still amazing, 3 is enough for you to bring the pain.
5. Dakkafexes is back for real. 115pts is nothing for the pain this creature brings.
The FAQ is here to stay, adjust or you will lose
Shrikes. Running along with the Genestealers.
Edit:
Using Harpys/Crones for turn 1 Assault, now everyone thinks nothing can happen turn1...
Venoms shroud monsters if their unit size is 4+, which can be pricey. And easy to negate.
Shrikes are in the Index, they’re an older unit without an official model. Basically warriors with 12” movement, though without the warrior keyword so no synergy with a Prime.
Regarding sporocysts, I’ve been running 3 with Leviathan and daisy chaining synapse up the field for mass feel no pains on all my fast assaulters, since all my synapse are slow neurothropes and malanthropes.
em_en_oh_pee wrote:Venomthropes can be shot directly, the Malanthrope is a character. That should make the Mal survive much longer. It also has Synapse, so that is another perk.
The character rule does help. My main bother is that they don't protect more than a couple units at a time while a Venomthrope brood of lower or similar cost will generally tag most of the army.
Badablack wrote: Venoms shroud monsters if their unit size is 4+, which can be pricey. And easy to negate.
They only need 3 to shroud monsters, extra models just keep it active for longer or extend the bubble range at 6-strong.
It's actually helpful to hear about venomthropes. I play in no-fw meta so option to run malanthrope is rare. I also prefer the venomthrope models to malanthrope. I'm new to nids amd reading through this thread has been helpful, thank you all for contributing.
I bought my first nids right before the FAQ dropped, which is a shame as pre-FAQ I had a pretty clear idea what I wanted to do with my nids. Now I'm sort of lost. Did anyone try the beta strike build discussed a couple pages back? The one with flyrants in tactical reserves and starting mawlocs on the table? That sounded interesting. And I could actually see it somewhat working.
Thing is, Malanthropes are 1 model with a 3" bubble. That's not a lot of models especially with the size of the main models we probably want to be protecting right, especially when factoring in terrain, and it severely restricts their movement too, theseunits have to remain within spitting distance of a 5" movespeed Malanthrope. As for Venomthrope, they cover the needed ground a lot better but won't cover the important models if one gets killed, which is easy to do because no character, and they don't provide synapse.
I don't think either unit is particularly good at its own role and both have next to zero offensive presence, I don't think either will ever make back the points cost in wounds prevented.
A lot of changes to get caught up on. Just happy to see you back and excited. I recall our time here during the 6th books release.
Thanks man! Good to see you still here as well. While I don't think I can practically ever match the enthusiasm I had for the game around 6th again (had a lot more free time back then, I'm... actually not that excited for this current edition, truth be told. Well, while I am excited for 40k, just not so much Nids, I'm actually pretty close to trading off my army for something new. I might hold on to enough to keep a list depending on what I can find to trade for, as it stands I feel I'm just playing Nids temporarily for the time being. I dunno, I'm still a little torn about it.
Badablack wrote: Shrikes are in the Index, they’re an older unit without an official model. Basically warriors with 12” movement, though without the warrior keyword so no synergy with a Prime.
FAQ Index Xenos 2, 2nd page on the middle left:
Page 89 – Tyranid Prime, Alpha Warrior
Change this ability to read:
‘You can add 1 to hit rolls for all <Hive Fleet> Tyranid
Warrior units and <Hive Fleet> Tyranid Shrike units that are within 6" of any friendly <Hive Fleet>
Tyranid Primes.’
Badablack wrote: Shrikes are in the Index, they’re an older unit without an official model. Basically warriors with 12” movement, though without the warrior keyword so no synergy with a Prime.
FAQ Index Xenos 2, 2nd page on the middle left:
Page 89 – Tyranid Prime, Alpha Warrior
Change this ability to read:
‘You can add 1 to hit rolls for all <Hive Fleet> Tyranid
Warrior units and <Hive Fleet> Tyranid Shrike units that are within 6" of any friendly <Hive Fleet>
Tyranid Primes.’
I’m goin go the London GT in May, I know for sure I won’t win all my games, because well- I am not tactical genius. But does my list look decent enough to fight against other armies using the new beta rules / FAQ?
The missions are eternal war primary with maelstrom secondary so I’ve gone for a reasonably fast army with the ability to deep strike some rippers later into the game for objective grabbing.
The warriors are there to give a bit more synanpse to the backfield as well as some heavy Bolter shots... thanks for any feedback!
++ Brigade Detachment +12CP (Tyranids) [104 PL, 2000pts] ++
Hive Fleet: Kraken
Stratagem: Bounty of the Hive Fleet (-1 CP): 1 Extra Bio-artefact
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant [11 PL, 213pts]: Adrenal Glands, Chameleonic Mutation, Monstrous Rending Claws, Power: Catalyst, Power: The Horror, Toxin Sacs, Two Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Wings
Hive Tyrant [11 PL, 213pts]: Adrenal Glands, Monstrous Rending Claws, Power: Psychic Scream, Power: The Horror, Toxin Sacs, Two Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Wings
Wilson wrote: I’m goin go the London GT in May, I know for sure I won’t win all my games, because well- I am not tactical genius. But does my list look decent enough to fight against other armies using the new beta rules / FAQ?
The missions are eternal war primary with maelstrom secondary so I’ve gone for a reasonably fast army with the ability to deep strike some rippers later into the game for objective grabbing.
The warriors are there to give a bit more synanpse to the backfield as well as some heavy Bolter shots... thanks for any feedback!
Spoiler:
++ Brigade Detachment +12CP (Tyranids) [104 PL, 2000pts] ++
Hive Fleet: Kraken
Stratagem: Bounty of the Hive Fleet (-1 CP): 1 Extra Bio-artefact
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant [11 PL, 213pts]: Adrenal Glands, Chameleonic Mutation, Monstrous Rending Claws, Power: Catalyst, Power: The Horror, Toxin Sacs, Two Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Wings
Hive Tyrant [11 PL, 213pts]: Adrenal Glands, Monstrous Rending Claws, Power: Psychic Scream, Power: The Horror, Toxin Sacs, Two Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Wings
I would make it two battalions. And take the lictor and the warriors out. make the hive guard 1x6 so they can all be affected by the stratagem. Do have more Genestealers, or Exocrine, Tyranofex, neurothropes ?
Wilson wrote: I’m goin go the London GT in May, I know for sure I won’t win all my games, because well- I am not tactical genius. But does my list look decent enough to fight against other armies using the new beta rules / FAQ?
The missions are eternal war primary with maelstrom secondary so I’ve gone for a reasonably fast army with the ability to deep strike some rippers later into the game for objective grabbing.
The warriors are there to give a bit more synanpse to the backfield as well as some heavy Bolter shots... thanks for any feedback!
Spoiler:
++ Brigade Detachment +12CP (Tyranids) [104 PL, 2000pts] ++
Hive Fleet: Kraken
Stratagem: Bounty of the Hive Fleet (-1 CP): 1 Extra Bio-artefact
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant [11 PL, 213pts]: Adrenal Glands, Chameleonic Mutation, Monstrous Rending Claws, Power: Catalyst, Power: The Horror, Toxin Sacs, Two Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Wings
Hive Tyrant [11 PL, 213pts]: Adrenal Glands, Monstrous Rending Claws, Power: Psychic Scream, Power: The Horror, Toxin Sacs, Two Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Wings
I would make it two battalions. And take the lictor and the warriors out. make the hive guard 1x6 so they can all be affected by the stratagem. Do have more Genestealers, or Exocrine, Tyranofex, neurothropes ?
They don’t allow duplicate detachments ,which is stupid because of the rule of 3. But that’s another argument.... I do have a few more stealers, and a exocrine but no tyranofex or neurothrope - although the latter I could add , if the forum thinks it’s a good addition?
Badablack wrote: Shrikes are in the Index, they’re an older unit without an official model. Basically warriors with 12” movement, though without the warrior keyword so no synergy with a Prime.
FAQ Index Xenos 2, 2nd page on the middle left:
Page 89 – Tyranid Prime, Alpha Warrior
Change this ability to read:
‘You can add 1 to hit rolls for all <Hive Fleet> Tyranid
Warrior units and <Hive Fleet> Tyranid Shrike units that are within 6" of any friendly <Hive Fleet>
Tyranid Primes.’
But the current prime does not have this.
But the FAQ is from 16th of April 2018. So why not use it?
So i use the "index prime" if someone gets excited about it. Because it seems HE has this rule even though the codex prime dont have it, if you want to argue RAW.
I hadn’t noticed that index FAQ, that’s great news for shrikes. As I understand it, you can use anything from the index, as long as points come from the current codex. So it would be valid, assuming some sort of apocalyptic end of index event doesn’t happen.
For shrikes to really benefit though the Prime would probably have to deepstrike through a pod or Jormungandr stratagem, or they’re gonna leave him in the dust.
The Malanthrope is so much more protected against enemy shooting. It only take a volley of S4 shots to make the Venomthropes useless.
140pts well spent, especially against tau, am and orks.
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Badablack wrote: I hadn’t noticed that index FAQ, that’s great news for shrikes. As I understand it, you can use anything from the index, as long as points come from the current codex. So it would be valid, assuming some sort of apocalyptic end of index event doesn’t happen.
For shrikes to really benefit though the Prime would probably have to deepstrike through a pod or Jormungandr stratagem, or they’re gonna leave him in the dust.
I’m goin go the London GT in May, I know for sure I won’t win all my games, because well- I am not tactical genius. But does my list look decent enough to fight against other armies using the new beta rules / FAQ?
The missions are eternal war primary with maelstrom secondary so I’ve gone for a reasonably fast army with the ability to deep strike some rippers later into the game for objective grabbing.
The warriors are there to give a bit more synanpse to the backfield as well as some heavy Bolter shots... thanks for any feedback!
++ Brigade Detachment +12CP (Tyranids) [104 PL, 2000pts] ++
Hive Fleet: Kraken
Stratagem: Bounty of the Hive Fleet (-1 CP): 1 Extra Bio-artefact
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant [11 PL, 213pts]: Adrenal Glands, Chameleonic Mutation, Monstrous Rending Claws, Power: Catalyst, Power: The Horror, Toxin Sacs, Two Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Wings
Hive Tyrant [11 PL, 213pts]: Adrenal Glands, Monstrous Rending Claws, Power: Psychic Scream, Power: The Horror, Toxin Sacs, Two Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Wings
Army wide -1 shield thanks to Venomthropes, combined with 6+ FNP thanks to Leviathan, should make for a hard chunk of units to remove, and I'm thinking that block of 6 Venoms in a unit might just be an actual CC threat on their own and they actually aren't too pricey.
Enhanced senses on all Dakkafexes, not too worried about tarpits with two full units of Bonesword Warriors hitting on 2+ (Prime bubble), and their durability synergises well with the army buffs. Heavy shooting army with strong CC coverage thanks to the versatility of Warriors, and a strong emphasis on durability without any obvious targets (Exocrine dependent, but I think his coverage is necessary). I think this list actually has me excited to play Nids again, and I actually have all the models except the Venoms (I doubt anyone own 6 Venoms before this edition ).
SHUPPET wrote: Alright I'm looking at making my something a little more balanced foe a 2k points bracket, with hopefully a lot of staying power.
I really like that list, but you need 1 more HQ choice for battalion detachment. I'd suggest dropping the Exocrine (somewhat redundant with the Hive Guard) for another Prime so your warrior broods can operate independently if needed and use the left over points for a Sporocyst with Barbed Stranglers (comes to the exact amount left over and does a lot for the army - increased synapse coverage and provides another source of mortal wounds via its bombs). Alternatively you could go for a Hive Tyrant of some form to keep up the monster count.
I'm thinking that block of 6 Venoms in a unit might just be an actual CC threat on their own and they actually aren't too pricey.
I've been using them fairly heavily with my Jormungandr lists (using the stratagem to deploy them up-field with whatever else) and they have done some good work. The first time I ran them they tore up a Dakkajet that ended its move too close (lashed it in shooting, then charged it and finished it off) and helped finish off a unit of Nobs before the game ended. The most recent game with a block of 6 saw them kill a Necron scarab unit, an Immortal unit that had been tied down by Hormagaunts, and put some wounds on a Pylon before going down in the resulting explosion. They are kinda like a warrior unit that does half of its attacks in the shooting phase, albeit one that trades accuracy for rerolls to wound.
Also worth keeping in mind they are able to use the Feeder Tendrils stratagem so it is worth keeping an eye out for character targets to suck the brains out of. Having a means of regaining CP is nice, if admittedly highly conditional to get off.
gigasnail wrote: @Strat_N8 you can't use The Enemy Below on venomthropes, if that's what you were referring to. They have the FLY keyword.
They don't benefit from Jormungandr's adaptation due to having FLY, but The Enemy Below only requires the target be a Jormungandr Infantry unit. Maybe you're thinking Opportunistic Advance?
gigasnail wrote: @Strat_N8 you can't use The Enemy Below on venomthropes, if that's what you were referring to. They have the FLY keyword.
They don't benefit from Jormungandr's adaptation due to having FLY, but The Enemy Below only requires the target be a Jormungandr Infantry unit. Maybe you're thinking Opportunistic Advance?
I don't normally comment on specifics like this without book in hand but I was pretty certain the FLY prohibition was in the strat. It certainly isnt...my mistake there.
I'm agreeing that malanthrope + 60-90 hormagaunts is going to be the starting block of most of my lists here out. Not too terribly expensive points wise, but the gaunts are plenty fast enough to get to the opponent's lines turn 2 at the latest. This is also a place where I'm thinking of dusting off my old gargoyles. Plus, more and more I'm thinking that Leviathan might be the best fleet in the long run. Yeah, the mega ferrari genestealers are good, but enough people have seen that gimmick that I doubt it will work much longer. Getting that additional 16% durability on our hordes will be crucial.
Gaunts and Gargs will move in fast to pick on screens/outliers, hopefully together. I'm also hoping that between the warriros, tyrants, and hive guard that I have enough AT. Not sure which 'thrope will move foreward and which will sit with the hive guard. I understand that in most cases devourers are a better choice than the HVC on tyrants, I just have a meta heavy in vehicles, so I need that extra punch to get through all the dreads and preds I see on a day-to-day.
Whoops good catch, thanks, I'll juggle it around a bit, or maybe (probably) just not go for a Battalion. You think the Exocrine is not so important?
Good to hear Venoms are capable of pulling a little weight, I'm interested to see what I can pull off with them. Also How easy is it for most armies to chew a 6 man unit down by 4 so that mcs lose the bonus?
(I doubt anyone own 6 Venoms before this edition ).
I actually did... I have 3 of the finecast ones from 5th edition and built 3 of the new (very pretty) plastic ones when their kit came out.
Lol you maniac
tho to be fair, I also have the finecast one, and it's easily the worst quality model in my entire army, the entire thing is basically spaghetti and it even just bent over time (not from handling) at the tail and sits on a strong lean. Can't believe this was something GW thought was a good idea.
I won a local tourney this weekend using all the updated errata, and I’d have to say my MVPs were definitely three Sporocysts. Having a near monopoly on deepstriking and board control turn 1 was huge. They were invariably blown off the board, but having the rest of my army free to go where they wanted made the mostly objective based missions much easier to snatch up.
There are no easy ways to take out venoms, they are bad targets no matter what you shoot at it.
- Hit penalty
- Multi wound
- At long range
- Almost always in cover for a 4+
The only weapon which was decent against them, the mortars, just got badly capped.
Apart from that there are no long range weapons which specialize in taking down multi wound low armored targets. IG arty and tanks are the ones that do this better, but they are badly hurt by the -1 to hit, and d3 damage is bad at taking down 3W targets (1,78 damage rolls required to kill one). This means that a Catachan manticore kills on average 1 venom. You are looking at a firing 4-5 times the venom's point cost to kill it, and that's with one of the best weapons out there for this job. Only problem would be Dark Reapers, each of them kills 0,46 venoms.
Add to this that venoms are a forced target for your enemy, so they are the perfect place to put your catalyst.
So I just picked up Tyranids and I know a lot is in flux right now so finding solid information is tough but I was wondering if these seemed like workable units to use:
2 Hive Tyrants with wing
6 Hive Guard
30 Termagants with Devorer
2 Tyrannofex
I'm realizing now a little late that I think I would have preferred Hormogants or at least just stock weapon on the Termagants.
I can't seem to make sense of relics. I haven't played a game yet but to an uneducated read through it seems like the Norn Crown could be super relevant but everywhere I read says this thing should never, ever be taken.
Yeah, nearly every list I build takes the Norn Crown because almost everything else seems to be utterly bland. Balethorn is the only other thing that interests me, but even that’s a niche anti-Daemon weapon that requires you to take a HT in a Kronos HQ slot that could instead be a Neurothrope or Malanthrope or even a Prime that benefits a gunline Detachment far more by virtue of better buffs and not dying on the first turn of it’s a serious threat to your opponent’s MVU.
If Primes could take a monstrous weapon, then it’d be a very different story.
SHUPPET wrote: Thing is, Malanthropes are 1 model with a 3" bubble. That's not a lot of models especially with the size of the main models we probably want to be protecting right, especially when factoring in terrain, and it severely restricts their movement too, theseunits have to remain within spitting distance of a 5" movespeed Malanthrope. As for Venomthrope, they cover the needed ground a lot better but won't cover the important models if one gets killed, which is easy to do because no character, and they don't provide synapse.
I don't think either unit is particularly good at its own role and both have next to zero offensive presence, I don't think either will ever make back the points cost in wounds prevented.
Just move and advance him. You can daisy chain and effectively have him shroud at least half your army. I have done it with 30x hormies, 2x 20 blocks of GS and a flyrant nearby. He shrouded everyone as I advance up.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: Alright I'm looking at making my something a little more balanced foe a 2k points bracket, with hopefully a lot of staying power.
Army wide -1 shield thanks to Venomthropes, combined with 6+ FNP thanks to Leviathan, should make for a hard chunk of units to remove, and I'm thinking that block of 6 Venoms in a unit might just be an actual CC threat on their own and they actually aren't too pricey.
Enhanced senses on all Dakkafexes, not too worried about tarpits with two full units of Bonesword Warriors hitting on 2+ (Prime bubble), and their durability synergises well with the army buffs. Heavy shooting army with strong CC coverage thanks to the versatility of Warriors, and a strong emphasis on durability without any obvious targets (Exocrine dependent, but I think his coverage is necessary). I think this list actually has me excited to play Nids again, and I actually have all the models except the Venoms (I doubt anyone own 6 Venoms before this edition ).
You need an HQ...Like maybe a Malanthrope instead of venoms.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
stalkerzero wrote: So I just picked up Tyranids and I know a lot is in flux right now so finding solid information is tough but I was wondering if these seemed like workable units to use:
2 Hive Tyrants with wing
6 Hive Guard
30 Termagants with Devorer
2 Tyrannofex
I'm realizing now a little late that I think I would have preferred Hormogants or at least just stock weapon on the Termagants.
I can't seem to make sense of relics. I haven't played a game yet but to an uneducated read through it seems like the Norn Crown could be super relevant but everywhere I read says this thing should never, ever be taken.
Thats a fantastic core to build a solid list around. YOu can still get some GS in there.
SHUPPET wrote: Thing is, Malanthropes are 1 model with a 3" bubble. That's not a lot of models especially with the size of the main models we probably want to be protecting right, especially when factoring in terrain, and it severely restricts their movement too, theseunits have to remain within spitting distance of a 5" movespeed Malanthrope. As for Venomthrope, they cover the needed ground a lot better but won't cover the important models if one gets killed, which is easy to do because no character, and they don't provide synapse.
I don't think either unit is particularly good at its own role and both have next to zero offensive presence, I don't think either will ever make back the points cost in wounds prevented.
Just move and advance him. You can daisy chain and effectively have him shroud at least half your army. I have done it with 30x hormies, 2x 20 blocks of GS and a flyrant nearby. He shrouded everyone as I advance up.
Teach me how to fit 6 Carnifexes, 20 Warriors and an Exocrine within 3" of a Malanthrope and then keep them there all the way up the board.
I think it might be army specific, seems like Malanthrope works better at shielding infantry units who only need to keep one model close to benefit the squad
lindsay40k wrote: Yeah, nearly every list I build takes the Norn Crown because almost everything else seems to be utterly bland. Balethorn is the only other thing that interests me, but even that’s a niche anti-Daemon weapon that requires you to take a HT in a Kronos HQ slot that could instead be a Neurothrope or Malanthrope or even a Prime that benefits a gunline Detachment far more by virtue of better buffs and not dying on the first turn of it’s a serious threat to your opponent’s MVU.
If Primes could take a monstrous weapon, then it’d be a very different story.
The norn Crown is useless unless your playing on a really large table for Apoc. IB hardly every comes up. Try taking the Reaper of Obliterax with Toxin sacs
stalkerzero wrote: So I just picked up Tyranids and I know a lot is in flux right now so finding solid information is tough but I was wondering if these seemed like workable units to use:
2 Hive Tyrants with wing
6 Hive Guard
30 Termagants with Devorer
2 Tyrannofex
I'm realizing now a little late that I think I would have preferred Hormogants or at least just stock weapon on the Termagants.
I can't seem to make sense of relics. I haven't played a game yet but to an uneducated read through it seems like the Norn Crown could be super relevant but everywhere I read says this thing should never, ever be taken.
I think Crown is a good choice in this edition. You are probably reading old info, because it's been a garbage choice forever up till now just cause of how the ruled were structured. It's still not particularly incredible, but neither are the other options and it seems more practical then the rest.
SHUPPET wrote: Thing is, Malanthropes are 1 model with a 3" bubble. That's not a lot of models especially with the size of the main models we probably want to be protecting right, especially when factoring in terrain, and it severely restricts their movement too, theseunits have to remain within spitting distance of a 5" movespeed Malanthrope. As for Venomthrope, they cover the needed ground a lot better but won't cover the important models if one gets killed, which is easy to do because no character, and they don't provide synapse.
I don't think either unit is particularly good at its own role and both have next to zero offensive presence, I don't think either will ever make back the points cost in wounds prevented.
Just move and advance him. You can daisy chain and effectively have him shroud at least half your army. I have done it with 30x hormies, 2x 20 blocks of GS and a flyrant nearby. He shrouded everyone as I advance up.
Teach me how to fit 6 Carnifexes, 20 Warriors and an Exocrine within 3" of a Malanthrope and then keep them there all the way up the board.
I think it might be army specific, seems like Malanthrope works better at shielding infantry units who only need to keep one model close to benefit the squad
Well your problem there is you have all MC. Of course thats not got to fit all that. If your running Dakka Fex and Exocrine I would put them in cover if you can. If not just accept that they will get shot. I ran a Leviathan list that shrouded that many warriors. Just put the malanthrope in the middle. Prime behind to buff the warriors. Then warriors to either side, daisy chaining them. Solid firebase with Prime and Malantrhope buffs, and Leviathan 6+++. Did a tourney on it, no one ever killed more than half my warriors.
So what you're saying is that it's army dependant, and doesn't work that well at covering mcs? Cause I feel like that's what I just said. *glances upwards* Yup, that's definitely what I just said.
SHUPPET wrote: So what you're saying is that it's army dependant, and doesn't work that well at covering mcs? Cause I feel like that's what I just said. *glances upwards* Yup, that's definitely what I just said.
You can run carnifexs with -1 to hit.
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Zimko wrote: They're carnifexes... they come with their own -1 for 10 pts (and it doesn't stack with venoms). The rest can easily fit into a bubble.
You put the priority targets near the Malanthrope, and as they die over the course of a game you move the ‘Thrope around to cover new targets. The Exocrine is going to be taking a lot more fire than the Warriors if you’re fighting a parking lot, and so on.
Zimko wrote:They're carnifexes... they come with their own -1 for 10 pts (and it doesn't stack with venoms). The rest can easily fit into a bubble.
Dynas wrote:
SHUPPET wrote: So what you're saying is that it's army dependant, and doesn't work that well at covering mcs? Cause I feel like that's what I just said. *glances upwards* Yup, that's definitely what I just said.
You can run carnifexs with -1 to hit.
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Zimko wrote: They're carnifexes... they come with their own -1 for 10 pts (and it doesn't stack with venoms). The rest can easily fit into a bubble.
This
Lol.
Cool, so what you guys are saying is that the Malanthrope won't be able to shroud 6+ mcs, and that it's effectiveness in covering your models is army dependant? Cause I feel like I've already said that twice now *glances upwards* I'm getting some serious DejaVu here.
What you said was that neither Malanthrope or Venoms are going to be great at making back their points and cited reasons why which included the Malanthrope behing unable to cover 6 carnifexes. We're just pointing out why that is not a valid reason to say that Malanthrope can't do their job since Malanthropes are not needed to provide -1 to carnifexes.
Zimko wrote: What you said was that neither Malanthrope or Venoms are going to be great at making back their points and cited reasons why which included the Malanthrope behing unable to cover 6 carnifexes. We're just pointing out why that is not a valid reason to say that Malanthrope can't do their job since Malanthropes are not needed to provide -1 to carnifexes.
But sure, just ignore context.
You're the one completely ignoring the context.
The guy literally quoted my list with 6 Carnifexes, an Exocrine, 2 units of Hive guards in the same post and said that a Malanthrope can be used to shroud MY army well. Recheck that context you claim others are ignoring because that's beyond ironic.
If your entire army fits under a Malanthrope bubble more power to you, that's an interesting input on my original quote from days ago, but doesn't change gak to do with the context of this one.
Also, never mind the fact that regardless of context. every response made by him was literally just repeating what I'd already said.
gigasnail wrote:
I don't normally comment on specifics like this without book in hand but I was pretty certain the FLY prohibition was in the strat. It certainly isnt...my mistake there.
No need to worry. I've made similar goofs myself.
SHUPPET wrote: You think the Exocrine is not so important?
Not so much unimportant as much as it seemed like the least disruptive thing to drop as far as threat saturation goes. A single Exocrine is a bit of a fire magnet, especially without any other 12+ wound monsters around to attract heavy firepower.
SHUPPET wrote:
tho to be fair, I also have the finecast one, and it's easily the worst quality model in my entire army, the entire thing is basically spaghetti and it even just bent over time (not from handling) at the tail and sits on a strong lean. Can't believe this was something GW thought was a good idea.
One of mine did that as well. Just give it a brief dunk in hot water and the bulk of it will snap back into its original shape by itself or with a little prodding. Repeat as necessary.
I can't seem to make sense of relics. I haven't played a game yet but to an uneducated read through it seems like the Norn Crown could be super relevant but everywhere I read says this thing should never, ever be taken.
The main issue with the Norn Crown is that it only affects the range that the bearer disables Instinctive Behavior without extending synapse range proper, meaning it is only really useful to allow a front-line synapse character to keep backfield artillery under control. Most of the other relics are for customizing your Hive Tyrants with unique equipment, with a handful of exceptions (Reaper of Oblitrax, Ymgarl Factor, Maw Claws, Gorgon Relic, Kraken Relic, Jormungandr Relic).
Ok so that whole malanthrope/venom debate is pointless.
What do you guys think our best bet for fighting Tau (the variant that has 5+ overwatch and 3 riptides) or 3 Shadowswords.
I played the Shadowswords and tried playing to the objectives but 90 heavy bolter shots, 12 lascannons and 3 volcano cannons rerolling to hit thanks to Trojans is a lot of firepower to swallow. And you can't just get them in melee to negate the shooting cause they can still shoot. And they have a stratagem to give 5+ to hit in overwatch for one of their tanks. It was just insane. I made it a close fight only because I won first turn and hid as much as I could in buildings but it wasn't enough to win (27 to 25).
RIght now I don't think Tyranids alone can do it. May have to dip into GSC for more powers.
Zimko wrote: Ok so that whole malanthrope/venom debate is pointless.
What do you guys think our best bet for fighting Tau (the variant that has 5+ overwatch and 3 riptides) or 3 Shadowswords.
I played the Shadowswords and tried playing to the objectives but 90 heavy bolter shots, 12 lascannons and 3 volcano cannons rerolling to hit thanks to Trojans is a lot of firepower to swallow. And you can't just get them in melee to negate the shooting cause they can still shoot. And they have a stratagem to give 5+ to hit in overwatch for one of their tanks. It was just insane. I made it a close fight only because I won first turn and hid as much as I could in buildings but it wasn't enough to win (27 to 25).
RIght now I don't think Tyranids alone can do it. May have to dip into GSC for more powers.
Three Shadowswords? Uh... who the hell actually plays that and how do they feel having no friends?
SHUPPET wrote: You think the Exocrine is not so important?
Not so much unimportant as much as it seemed like the least disruptive thing to drop as far as threat saturation goes. A single Exocrine is a bit of a fire magnet, especially without any other 12+ wound monsters around to attract heavy firepower.
Yeah, I look at the list and I can tell it's the obvious target too. Hmmm I'll think about where to go from there.
SHUPPET wrote:
tho to be fair, I also have the finecast one, and it's easily the worst quality model in my entire army, the entire thing is basically spaghetti and it even just bent over time (not from handling) at the tail and sits on a strong lean. Can't believe this was something GW thought was a good idea.
One of mine did that as well. Just give it a brief dunk in hot water and the bulk of it will snap back into its original shape by itself or with a little prodding. Repeat as necessary.
How hot we talking? And what effect does it have on the paintjob?
Zimko wrote: Ok so that whole malanthrope/venom debate is pointless.
What do you guys think our best bet for fighting Tau (the variant that has 5+ overwatch and 3 riptides) or 3 Shadowswords.
I played the Shadowswords and tried playing to the objectives but 90 heavy bolter shots, 12 lascannons and 3 volcano cannons rerolling to hit thanks to Trojans is a lot of firepower to swallow. And you can't just get them in melee to negate the shooting cause they can still shoot. And they have a stratagem to give 5+ to hit in overwatch for one of their tanks. It was just insane. I made it a close fight only because I won first turn and hid as much as I could in buildings but it wasn't enough to win (27 to 25).
RIght now I don't think Tyranids alone can do it. May have to dip into GSC for more powers.
GSC supreme detachment with 3x magus can do quite well if you manage to control one with Mind Control. Mass Hypnosis is you friends for charges. And The Horror is not bad either... combined with -1 to hit from Malanthrope, Venomthropes or Carnfiexes you can do quite well. Situational though, but valid way to go.
I was thinking of taking 2x magus and 3x neophyte hybrid squads with mortars for a battalion. +5 CP and a few extra ob sec units seems decent, especially since they don't give up reaper points if they have mortar teams (9 models instead of 10... silly ITC secondary)
Zimko wrote: I was thinking of taking 2x magus and 3x neophyte hybrid squads with mortars for a battalion. +5 CP and a few extra ob sec units seems decent, especially since they don't give up reaper points if they have mortar teams (9 models instead of 10... silly ITC secondary)
For 341 points this is quite cheap, considering what you get. And you can still fit in a 3rd magus if needed.
Anecdotal, but I played against a 3 Shadowsword list once using Jormungandr with 3 squads of deepstriking zoanthropes with neurothrope support, swarms of genestealers, and a bunch of Hive Guard out of LOS and it just ruined him. Was never able to pull off the zoanthrope mortal wound stratagem but they were carving half a tank a round, hive Guard finished it up, and all those volcano cannons and lascannons were useless on the zoanthropes. The heavy bolters did shred my genestealers but the rest was enough to kill him. This was pre smite/deepstrike nerf though, so who knows what works now.
Badablack wrote: Anecdotal, but I played against a 3 Shadowsword list once using Jormungandr with 3 squads of deepstriking zoanthropes with neurothrope support, swarms of genestealers, and a bunch of Hive Guard out of LOS and it just ruined him. Was never able to pull off the zoanthrope mortal wound stratagem but they were carving half a tank a round, hive Guard finished it up, and all those volcano cannons and lascannons were useless on the zoanthropes. The heavy bolters did shred my genestealers but the rest was enough to kill him. This was pre smite/deepstrike nerf though, so who knows what works now.
that's really interesting. I've been interested in the zoanthropes and how they perform. Sounds like a cool list. What was it entirely?
So plenty of CP with a Brigade (half which got spent deepstriking everything), all the important stuff deepstriking, no giant monsters to blow away with lascannons, and artillery dug in the back. Genestealers had the 4+ carapaces since they were all deepstriking and needed to weather a million shots if they failed their charges. 1 Neurothrope with the zoanthropes, the other hanging out with the artillery to give synapse and feel no pains to the Hive Guard if necessary.
Zoanthropes are pretty great. It’s 9 3++ wounds that don’t care about morale, can’t be locked in combat or prevented from doing damage, and don’t care about saves. Their only weakness is Death Hex and the marine equivalent, which will rarely be a problem since they’re casting on 9 to even get it off. Even with the Smite nerfs, if they’re in range of a Neurothrope (which should be always) they’re rerolling 1’s which is the source of most failed tests anyway.
That's way too many units in reserves. Even before the FAQ you could only put 9 units of the 18 required units for a brigade into reserves. Now you also have to worry about power level.
Zimko wrote: That's way too many units in reserves. Even before the FAQ you could only put 9 units of the 18 required units for a brigade into reserves. Now you also have to worry about power level.
Oh it’s definitely not nearly as good anymore, this was all pre-nerf. I probably had more mucolids to keep the ratio even and deny deepstrikers in my own zone. Turn 2 deepstrikes now mean I’d be eating a ton of fire while everything twiddles its thumbs in reserves, if I redid the list it would be double battallions instead with either Kraken for faster movement or Leviathan for the 6+++. Probably Leviathan just to make the Zoanthropes even more obnoxious to kill.
SHUPPET wrote:
tho to be fair, I also have the finecast one, and it's easily the worst quality model in my entire army, the entire thing is basically spaghetti and it even just bent over time (not from handling) at the tail and sits on a strong lean. Can't believe this was something GW thought was a good idea.
One of mine did that as well. Just give it a brief dunk in hot water and the bulk of it will snap back into its original shape by itself or with a little prodding. Repeat as necessary.
How hot we talking? And what effect does it have on the paintjob?
I've used this technique to repose Finecast or Forgeworld figures. (Resin is much easier than plastic for this, as it slowly becomes more supple in with boiling heat, rather than suddenly melts or collapses in burning heat; ignore these people who talk about cigarette lighters and Carnifex tails (seriously, what the heck?).)
I get the following together:
- a jug of icy water
- a boiling kettle
- a funnel with a thin spout that I can safely handle whilst pouring in scalding hot water
- a means of safely holding a model whilst giving it a scalding hot shower
In a sink or over a large bowl, I use the funnel to apply hot water to the area that needs to be repositioned. Once it'll freely bend, get it into shape (a rod of blu tack can help hold it in position if you only have two hands), and spot apply cold water to fix it.
It's not as permanent a solution as cut and pin, but it gets things done. You'll probably get paint chipping around the bend and a base might need reflocking, but nowhere near as much trouble as if you'd just dunked the whole thing.
I played the Shadowswords and tried playing to the objectives but 90 heavy bolter shots, 12 lascannons and 3 volcano cannons rerolling to hit thanks to Trojans is a lot of firepower to swallow. And you can't just get them in melee to negate the shooting cause they can still shoot. And they have a stratagem to give 5+ to hit in overwatch for one of their tanks. It was just insane. I made it a close fight only because I won first turn and hid as much as I could in buildings but it wasn't enough to win (27 to 25).
RIght now I don't think Tyranids alone can do it. May have to dip into GSC for more powers.
That Shadowsword list is the sort of thing that makes GSC rub their claws together with glee. Mind Control one of them to hopefully destroy one of their squadron mates, then Mass Hypnosis and charge with Acolytes/Aberrants to smash another to a pulp. Demolition Charges, Rock Saws, and Rock Drills all love seeing big fat Lords of War to tear up and GSC can easily get strength modifiers to allow Acolytes to wound on 5's with their Rending Claws and 3's for their heavy weapons.
SHUPPET wrote: How hot we talking? And what effect does it have on the paintjob?
I heated the water until it had steam coiling from the surface but not quite at a boil. The paint was more or less unaffected, but I didn't keep it submerged very long (held it by the base) so there wasn't much time for any of the paint to dissolve.
SHUPPET wrote: that's really interesting. I've been interested in the zoanthropes and how they perform.
Before, it was more efficient to spam Neurothropes since you could get 2 for around the cost of Zoanthrope brood of 4 (minimum needed to unlock their bonus), but with the new matched play rules the Zoanthrope brood is more efficient at dealing mortal wounds since each cast of Smite has the effect of two casts for only +1 to casting difficulty instead of +2.
I mostly run Zoanthropes with Hydra lists. They don't like high rate of fire guns and can shrug off low rate of fire anti-tank shots fairly well, so they fit in nicely with Hydra's infantry skew for saturation purposes while their preference for larger units plays into Hydra's adaptation as well.
I think i might buy 3 maguses. Smite nerf sucks for us though, with 3 flyrants and 3 maguses you're last smite is on a 10. Also, who knows what will happen after the new codex.
killerpenguin wrote: I think i might buy 3 maguses. Smite nerf sucks for us though, with 3 flyrants and 3 maguses you're last smite is on a 10. Also, who knows what will happen after the new codex.
killerpenguin wrote: I think i might buy 3 maguses. Smite nerf sucks for us though, with 3 flyrants and 3 maguses you're last smite is on a 10. Also, who knows what will happen after the new codex.
We have a new dex coming?
GSC has a new codex coming. Not officially announced yet, but will likely be during june/july.
killerpenguin wrote: I think i might buy 3 maguses. Smite nerf sucks for us though, with 3 flyrants and 3 maguses you're last smite is on a 10. Also, who knows what will happen after the new codex.
We have a new dex coming?
Genestealer Cult codex is purportedly out sometime this year
Zimko wrote:They're carnifexes... they come with their own -1 for 10 pts (and it doesn't stack with venoms). The rest can easily fit into a bubble.
Dynas wrote:
SHUPPET wrote: So what you're saying is that it's army dependant, and doesn't work that well at covering mcs? Cause I feel like that's what I just said. *glances upwards* Yup, that's definitely what I just said.
You can run carnifexs with -1 to hit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Zimko wrote: They're carnifexes... they come with their own -1 for 10 pts (and it doesn't stack with venoms). The rest can easily fit into a bubble.
This
Lol.
Cool, so what you guys are saying is that the Malanthrope won't be able to shroud 6+ mcs, and that it's effectiveness in covering your models is army dependant? Cause I feel like I've already said that twice now *glances upwards* I'm getting some serious DejaVu here.
I mean yeah, you could put a malanthrope in the middle of 6 dakkafex if they are base to base. Just move around a blob of fexes at Malanthrope/Misanthrop speed.[Its an evolved form] It's doable.
I'm sure the other players wont mind me posting these, seeing as they are shared on the London GT page. Here are all the Nid lists entered for the LGT 2018. ( 440 players!)
These lists are compliant with the new BETA rules and the latest FAQ. only restriction is no duplicate detachments.
Spoiler:
PLAYER NAME: Guy Oliver
ARMY FACTIONS: Tyranids
TOTAL COMMAND POINTS: 10
TOTAL ARMY POINTS: 2000 pts
That a lot of kraken. I think you forgot the 2nd detachment of the third list (the kronos detachment. Interesting to see the last 2 with the swarm lord.
Lol, I like how a couple of them made their Warlord a Meiotic Spore. First of all... is that even legal? Second of all... I guess that would deny Slay the Warlord since spores don't count towards any objectives? Very interesting.
Dynas wrote: I mean yeah, you could put a malanthrope in the middle of 6 dakkafex if they are base to base. Just move around a blob of fexes at Malanthrope/Misanthrop speed.[Its an evolved form] It's doable.
On planet bowling ball, and you hit no terrain speedbumps, then maybe. But then you still have to slow down a unit designed to get in range as close as possible, by the lowest move+charge roll among 7 different units. Which will likely by the Malanthrope itself thanks to it moving significantly slower than the Fexes. So it fails in every way. And then the question of would you even pay 140 points to shave off around 1/6 hits against a 600 point unit? That doesn't add up even if it didn't have ridiculous requirements to make it work.
Teach me how to fit 6 Carnifexes, 20 Warriors and an Exocrine within 3" of a Malanthrope and then keep them there all the way up the board.
The quote you just answered is after you responded to leave the Carnifexes out. When I respond "okay so the Carnifexes don't fit with the rest of the army like I said", a response telling me to jam 6 Carnifexes up around a Malanthrope is... not very productive.
I'm sorry, but when you have a ground MC heavy army mixed with infantry, taking a Malanthrope just isn't gonna work out to cover them all.
You can believe that, but that's your tactical decision. There is literally no effort in putting 6 fex in front of a Malanthrope in range leading the way. There is plenty of room to tie tails of other units in as well.
1/6 hits from normal weapons are not so important. 1/6 of lascannons are different story.
Fragile wrote: You can believe that, but that's your tactical decision. There is literally no effort in putting 6 fex in front of a Malanthrope in range leading the way. There is plenty of room to tie tails of other units in as well.
"literally no effort" except all the effort I just explained, but okay.... :(
For starters you have to half circle the Thrope to begin with just to get the Dakkafexes in range, you can't just put them in front of it, so it's pretty clear you've never actually tried to do this. Go playtest a match with a bunch of MC's surrounding a Malanthrope on a battlefield with actual terrain on it, I don't just mean craters, and try move them up the board and see if you feel like you aren't seriously hampering the movement to keep in range of the shroud. And stop discounting the Exocrine who is the largest and most important model to be protected there out of all of them. Moving a thrope with a blob of MCs wasn't easy back when they had the same movespeed and 6" bubble. 3" is not a generous amount of room at all.
1/6 hits from normal weapons are not so important. 1/6 of lascannons are different story.
It doesn't matter if it's 1/6 hits from boltguns or lascannons, the the point is that it's saving you as many hits from both as just taking forcing them to target down another Carnifex, which costs even less points and doesn't have the ridiculous movement restrictions given to 600 points of another unit built around rushing forward as fast as possible, and gives you more dakka. Paying 140 pts just to protect ~1/6th of that many points of Dakka is a bad choice.
Point of order - Malanthrope do not prevent ‘1/6 hits’. 6+++ stuff like Changeling does something similar (1/6 of Wounds), but -1 to be hit prevents:
25% of BS3+ hits
33% of BS4+ hits (that makes it a lot harder for Tau to get full Marker Light bonuses)
50% of BS5+ hits
100% of BS6+ hits (play against Orks and cast The Horror and this becomes extremely relevant - potentially, you can switch off a Stompa’s guns)
This is assuming no re-rolls, but still, a very tasty result - which also makes supercharged Plasma extremely unattrative, which is very nice indeed.
lindsay40k wrote: Point of order - Malanthrope do not prevent ‘1/6 hits’. 6+++ stuff like Changeling does something similar (1/6 of Wounds), but -1 to be hit prevents:
25% of BS3+ hits 33% of BS4+ hits (that makes it a lot harder for Tau to get full Marker Light bonuses) 50% of BS5+ hits 100% of BS6+ hits (play against Orks and cast The Horror and this becomes extremely relevant - potentially, you can switch off a Stompa’s guns)
This is assuming no re-rolls, but still, a very tasty result - which also makes supercharged Plasma extremely unattrative, which is very nice indeed.
Zimko wrote: Lol, I like how a couple of them made their Warlord a Meiotic Spore. First of all... is that even legal? Second of all... I guess that would deny Slay the Warlord since spores don't count towards any objectives? Very interesting.
The meiotic spore warlord guy is me. I think I'm the only one who did it (my list has been copy/pasted twice in that spoiler.)
Firstly yes its legal, your warlord can be any model in your army. Just if its not a character you don't get a warlord trait.
It does deny slay the warlord, also the kingslayer card. It also makes the stupid maelstrom card where your warlord has to hold an objective impossible so you get to freely discard it in this mission format.
Its a touch gamey but in a world of triple shining spear, triple dark reaper ynnarri I feel its hardly breaking the game so meh.
Deathwatch just killed lists that rely on Neurothrope or Malanthropes - they've got a stratagem that basically gives a squad universal sniper scopes
With access to squads with five Plasma Incinerators, or five Heavy Bolters or Frag Cannons AND a load of assault cannons or cyclones, I guess a lot of IMPERIUM lists will have some
Fragile wrote: You can believe that, but that's your tactical decision. There is literally no effort in putting 6 fex in front of a Malanthrope in range leading the way. There is plenty of room to tie tails of other units in as well.
"literally no effort" except all the effort I just explained, but okay.... :(
For starters you have to half circle the Thrope to begin with just to get the Dakkafexes in range, you can't just put them in front of it, so it's pretty clear you've never actually tried to do this.
Actually I played two tournaments with this basic core when the codex dropped. Dakkafexes backed up by Stonecrushers. A Kraken Malanthrope rarely has any issues with keeping up with the 3 dice advance, and the additional movement of the Fexen allows maneuverability around terrain as needed. Both Genestealer squads and both termagant squads were also easily able to tie a tail into the -1 aura.
Go playtest a match with a bunch of MC's surrounding a Malanthrope on a battlefield with actual terrain on it, I don't just mean craters, and try move them up the board and see if you feel like you aren't seriously hampering the movement to keep in range of the shroud. And stop discounting the Exocrine who is the largest and most important model to be protected there out of all of them. Moving a thrope with a blob of MCs wasn't easy back when they had the same movespeed and 6" bubble. 3" is not a generous amount of room at all.
This sounds like more theory than actual play. Besides the -1 bubble is only critical in the first two turns.
But, to each their own. If you dont like it, dont play it.
Fragile wrote: You can believe that, but that's your tactical decision. There is literally no effort in putting 6 fex in front of a Malanthrope in range leading the way. There is plenty of room to tie tails of other units in as well.
"literally no effort" except all the effort I just explained, but okay.... :(
For starters you have to half circle the Thrope to begin with just to get the Dakkafexes in range, you can't just put them in front of it, so it's pretty clear you've never actually tried to do this.
Actually I played two tournaments with this basic core when the codex dropped. Dakkafexes backed up by Stonecrushers. A Kraken Malanthrope rarely has any issues with keeping up with the 3 dice advance, and the additional movement of the Fexen allows maneuverability around terrain as needed. Both Genestealer squads and both termagant squads were also easily able to tie a tail into the -1 aura.
Go playtest a match with a bunch of MC's surrounding a Malanthrope on a battlefield with actual terrain on it, I don't just mean craters, and try move them up the board and see if you feel like you aren't seriously hampering the movement to keep in range of the shroud. And stop discounting the Exocrine who is the largest and most important model to be protected there out of all of them. Moving a thrope with a blob of MCs wasn't easy back when they had the same movespeed and 6" bubble. 3" is not a generous amount of room at all.
This sounds like more theory than actual play. Besides the -1 bubble is only critical in the first two turns.
But, to each their own. If you dont like it, dont play it.
Lol sure. I'd bet my house your first list wasnt actually playing with 6 Carnifex, an Exocrine and infantry supported by a Malanthrope as you now claim, but it's cool. To each their own as you said, and I probably just have a higher level of competitive standard than you. So lets stop hounding me about taking something unless you can constructively word your responses to the issues I had with the unit for my list, rather than being unnecessarily snarky from the jump. I don't think it's a good call for my army and when I said this was like a week ago, so can please move on? Thanks.
lindsay40k wrote: Deathwatch just killed lists that rely on Neurothrope or Malanthropes - they've got a stratagem that basically gives a squad universal sniper scopes.
Compared to some of the other Xenos I think our "anti-stratagem" is among the more mild to be fair (poor Tau). That said, the biggest thing it potentially shuts down is lists using 'thropes as a hidden warlord while the "real" leaders throw themselves into action. Still, can do the trick to an extent if said hidden Warlord isRed Terror, Deathleaper, or Old One Eye (which is actually mildly amusing given the general Imperial dogma of "shoot the big ones" when dealing with 'nids).
I agree with the second point though. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Primaris Kill Team start popping up in Imperial lists give that it "fixes" one of the main issue Intercessors had (no specials) and Hellblasters had (no ablative bodies). Also a bit curious that they did not preview an anti-GSC stratagem in the article, given that the Deathwatch were originally released with GSC and given that the anti-Tyranid one can't be used against GSC unlike the anti-Eldar one which covers all three (or five, depending on how you view the Dark Eldar book).
lindsay40k wrote: Deathwatch just killed lists that rely on Neurothrope or Malanthropes - they've got a stratagem that basically gives a squad universal sniper scopes
With access to squads with five Plasma Incinerators, or five Heavy Bolters or Frag Cannons AND a load of assault cannons or cyclones, I guess a lot of IMPERIUM lists will have some
Not worried. They can target the synapse but IB is really the issue. Most of the time you are shooting or charging the closest thing anyway. Not to mention most people take Flyrants for Synapse. Besides, Deathwatch is a niche army, and with the change to no longer allowing Multi "soup" within the detachment, it is forcing Imperium and marine players to take an entire detachment of Deathwatch for a single stratagem, where they MAY play a Tyrnaid list that fields Neurothrope. And its good vs a 70 point model, or 140 with Malanthrope. I don't see people committing and entire detachment of DW marines on the off chance they may be able to use this one stratagem against 1 army they in a tourney.
Solution, just take 2 flyrants minimum, that would cover synapse on most things.
Zimko wrote: Lol, I like how a couple of them made their Warlord a Meiotic Spore. First of all... is that even legal? Second of all... I guess that would deny Slay the Warlord since spores don't count towards any objectives? Very interesting.
The meiotic spore warlord guy is me. I think I'm the only one who did it (my list has been copy/pasted twice in that spoiler.)
Firstly yes its legal, your warlord can be any model in your army. Just if its not a character you don't get a warlord trait.
It does deny slay the warlord, also the kingslayer card. It also makes the stupid maelstrom card where your warlord has to hold an objective impossible so you get to freely discard it in this mission format.
Its a touch gamey but in a world of triple shining spear, triple dark reaper ynnarri I feel its hardly breaking the game so meh.
I don't think its gamey, its actually pretty smart. Never even realized that. Most people, myself included, just assume a warlord has to be an HQ slot. Interested to see how it goes for you.
SHUPPET wrote:
How hot we talking? And what effect does it have on the paintjob?
I heated the water until it had steam coiling from the surface but not quite at a boil. The paint was more or less unaffected, but I didn't keep it submerged very long (held it by the base) so there wasn't much time for any of the paint to dissolve.
so just to confirm before I baptise this guy, that I should just hold him under water say 10 seconds? 30 seconds? and then try to mold his spinal problems back into place?
The picture doesn't really do justice to how bad a gangster lean he really has going on there. I'm really disappointed in these finecasts, my Zopes are slightly saggy too. But not enough to risk the paintjob for just yet.
How long it takes depends on how hot the water is. It doesn't take very hot water though. I just run them under the tap.
You should be able to feel it soften and become very flexible as you're holding it under. Just apply a small amount of pressure as you're holding it, and you'll be able to tell when it's ready.
It should harden again fairly quickly once you take it out of the water, but it can still help if you have some cold water ready to dunk it in once you've set it back into shape.
You should be fine. It's fairly straightforward, and if you don't get it right the first time, just reheat and try again.
Arson Fire wrote: How long it takes depends on how hot the water is. It doesn't take very hot water though. I just run them under the tap.
You should be able to feel it soften and become very flexible as you're holding it under. Just apply a small amount of pressure as you're holding it, and you'll be able to tell when it's ready.
It should harden again fairly quickly once you take it out of the water, but it can still help if you have some cold water ready to dunk it in once you've set it back into shape.
You should be fine. It's fairly straightforward, and if you don't get it right the first time, just reheat and try again.
thanks dude!
lost a touch of paint on the tail, but it was all just grey, no carapace. Easily fixed. And now hes standing up straight again! cheers
Arson Fire wrote: How long it takes depends on how hot the water is. It doesn't take very hot water though. I just run them under the tap.
You should be able to feel it soften and become very flexible as you're holding it under. Just apply a small amount of pressure as you're holding it, and you'll be able to tell when it's ready.
It should harden again fairly quickly once you take it out of the water, but it can still help if you have some cold water ready to dunk it in once you've set it back into shape.
You should be fine. It's fairly straightforward, and if you don't get it right the first time, just reheat and try again.
thanks dude!
lost a touch of paint on the tail, but it was all just grey, no carapace. Easily fixed. And now hes standing up straight again! cheers
Arson Fire beat me to it... Glad the technique worked out for you though!
I suppose to swing back around to tactics, I've been playing around with a pair of Toxicrenes a bit in a Leviathan lists to try to take advantage of War on all Fronts as a means to fix their accuracy issues using Tyrannocytes as the enabler and a potential deployment option if required. Having spent time going over them they have a lot of interesting utility capabilities (multiple abilities that can inflict mortal wounds, always swings first to disrupts multiple assaults, can shoot into melee with friendlies to try to free them up to do other things, provides CP regeneration via Feeder Tendrils, etc.) for relatively cheap, so I'm curious to find a good list for them to fit in to. Unfortunately, neither of the two games so far fielding them them were entirely good tests of their capabilities. In the first game they rolled unusually well and vastly over-performed (killed two Paladin squads, a Strike squad, and Draigo) while in the second game the opponent tailored for anti-monster, so they got held back until later in the game when most things were locked down by Hormagaunts (main contribution was killing a Doomsday Ark and finishing off a Destroyer squad). In both instances one of the two survived until the end, albeit with only a handful of wounds left.
Anyway, here is the last list I used with them if anyone wants to tinker with it. I already have a few revisions in mind (it wasn't exactly built as an optimized list, mostly a test bed for various things) but I'd be happy to hear what anyone else might do with the basic core of 90 Hormagaunts + 2x Tyrannocytes + 2x Toxicrenes.
Spoiler:
Leviathan Battalion: HQ: 1x Swarmlord HQ: 1x Hive Tyrant with Reaper of Oblitrax, Heavy Venom Cannon (taken to test the Reaper as my walking model is magnetized while my flyers aren't)
ELITES: 6x Venomthropes (taken because of the gaunt swarm below)
Arson Fire wrote: How long it takes depends on how hot the water is. It doesn't take very hot water though. I just run them under the tap.
You should be able to feel it soften and become very flexible as you're holding it under. Just apply a small amount of pressure as you're holding it, and you'll be able to tell when it's ready.
It should harden again fairly quickly once you take it out of the water, but it can still help if you have some cold water ready to dunk it in once you've set it back into shape.
You should be fine. It's fairly straightforward, and if you don't get it right the first time, just reheat and try again.
thanks dude!
lost a touch of paint on the tail, but it was all just grey, no carapace. Easily fixed. And now hes standing up straight again! cheers
Arson Fire beat me to it... Glad the technique worked out for you though!
I suppose to swing back around to tactics, I've been playing around with a pair of Toxicrenes a bit in a Leviathan lists to try to take advantage of War on all Fronts as a means to fix their accuracy issues using Tyrannocytes as the enabler and a potential deployment option if required. Having spent time going over them they have a lot of interesting utility capabilities (multiple abilities that can inflict mortal wounds, always swings first to disrupts multiple assaults, can shoot into melee with friendlies to try to free them up to do other things, provides CP regeneration via Feeder Tendrils, etc.) for relatively cheap, so I'm curious to find a good list for them to fit in to. Unfortunately, neither of the two games so far fielding them them were entirely good tests of their capabilities. In the first game they rolled unusually well and vastly over-performed (killed two Paladin squads, a Strike squad, and Draigo) while in the second game the opponent tailored for anti-monster, so they got held back until later in the game when most things were locked down by Hormagaunts (main contribution was killing a Doomsday Ark and finishing off a Destroyer squad). In both instances one of the two survived until the end, albeit with only a handful of wounds left.
Anyway, here is the last list I used with them if anyone wants to tinker with it. I already have a few revisions in mind (it wasn't exactly built as an optimized list, mostly a test bed for various things) but I'd be happy to hear what anyone else might do with the basic core of 90 Hormagaunts + 2x Tyrannocytes + 2x Toxicrenes.
Spoiler:
Leviathan Battalion:
HQ: 1x Swarmlord
HQ: 1x Hive Tyrant with Reaper of Oblitrax, Heavy Venom Cannon (taken to test the Reaper as my walking model is magnetized while my flyers aren't)
ELITES: 6x Venomthropes (taken because of the gaunt swarm below)
TRANSPORT: 1x Tyrannocyte with Deathspitters
TRANSPORT: 1x Tyrannocyte with Deathspitters
Total: 1850 points
I would really like to use Toxicrenes, that model is amazing. It wants to do so many things at the same time though that mathammer is not going to give you a lot of info.
Why do you say that accuracy is his problem? Actually that is one of the few beasts with an innate 3+. It has a really good stat block, Str 7, 6 attacks, always reroll wounds, attacks first, shoots in melee with a decent profile, lots of mortal wounds... On paper it's a really good beast, the reason why i hesitate to use it is that it has probably the worst degradation chart in the game. I can see it getting a lot of benefit from being put in a tyrannocite and from Leviathan, so i approve of your list, i just don't get what you mean by "accuracy issues".
Sometimes i think that tyranids would get seriously OP if we had a stratagem like tha T'au one that allows a model to ignore wounds for a turn
Thanks. Is stacking the Hive Guards into one unit preferred because of stratagem purposes?
Yes, because the Double Fire Stratagem works on a Unit .. so its better to have a Unit with 6 for more shots
*edit* also stacking Hive Guards has been around since before the Nerf already, there were Hive Guard heavy lists at Adepticon, people were scared they would get a nerf too because of that, but it seems GW ignored them for now .. lets hope they dont get the nerfbat in the next Autumn FAQ
Thanks. Is stacking the Hive Guards into one unit preferred because of stratagem purposes?
Yes, because the Double Fire Stratagem works on a Unit .. so its better to have a Unit with 6 for more shots
*edit* also stacking Hive Guards has been around since before the Nerf already, there were Hive Guard heavy lists at Adepticon, people were scared they would get a nerf too because of that, but it seems GW ignored them for now .. lets hope they dont get the nerfbat in the next Autumn FAQ
I'd be surprised if they got a nerf. Compared to other armies they aren't insanely powerful. They have an obvious weakness (touch them in combat) and their range is relatively support for a heavy firepower support unit that really wants to deploy behind a wall and stay there.
They are good of course but abusive? I wouldn't have thought so.
The fact they need a strategem makes them safe from a nerf. If they were too good then you'd see lists running 18 of them winning events. At most, people are using 12.
This is true from a logical sense, but lets not forget that we are talking about GW here ..
Flying Hive Tyrants got nerfed because Tournament lists were insanely stacked with them and they were powerful
-> logical thing
Biovores were nerfed despite it not being THAT stacked at tournaments and they werent THAT powerful either
-> not so logical thing
Now we take Hive Guards, who are not that powerful either without a stratagem but will become really powerful with it and they were also heavily stacked in some tournament lists (some had 15 of them) .. now here you could possibly think that they MIGHT be on the radar ...
honestly, with GW you bascally never know what they are going to do next. the only thing that is for sure is that they forget grey knights even exist ..
Tyran wrote: Biovores were nerfed because people are using them in a way GW didn't envision, which is using their spores to control the enemy movement.
Did they say that?
If that was the case, wouldn't they have just removed that, instead of making them weaker at their actual intended role?
Why do you say that accuracy is his problem? Actually that is one of the few beasts with an innate 3+.
I completely missed that. For whatever reason I've been operating under the assumption that they started at WS: 4+ and got worse from there, so having rerolls available helped to mitigate it.
Biovores were nerfed despite it not being THAT stacked at tournaments and they werent THAT powerful either
Pre-codex I remember a handful of Biovore spam builds being touted for tournament play, but I imagine they never were especially popular since the monetary cost is so prohibitive.
That said, the cost increase probably has more to do with keeping them in line with the other fire support infantry than anything else. Before, Biovores were the least expensive fire-support option available (2 points less than Pyrovores, 3 points less than Shock Cannon Hive Guard, 12 points less than Impaler Hive Guard, 4 points less than Zoanthropes) with the most universally useful damage type, longest range, and a handy secondary function of area denial with their shots. They were basically a no-brainer add on if you had the points and slots available to include them, while now they need the list to be built with them in mind.
When it comes to running the big melee beasties (haruspex, toxicrene, maleceptor kinda) I don’t think it’s really possible except with Kraken and first turn assaults. You need at least one of them in the enemy gunline or they’ll be too shot up by lascannons to have any real effectiveness. Just having 2-3” of better movement is not nearly enough.
Been toying around with Haruspex. It is a really fun unit. It is overpriced for sure but with some minor tweaks it could be really good. Toxicrine seems almost usable too but I havn't had a chance to try it - Looks to be the next best melle beast that isn't a Swarmlord.
Also - Red Terror? Sucks or not? He can eat custodian biker? Good or no?
The idea of the Red Terror swallowing custode bikers like a giant Pac-Man is amusing. I loved the Red Terror in the index but I haven't used him since the codex came out. There's just too many other options for deep striking nom-noms.
This weekend I played in the Alamo GT, a mid-sized GT here in San Antonio. For anyone who happened to be there, I was the guy with the long hair and the glossy green 'nids.
This post is going to be a brief(ish) write up of my list, the games I played, and my thoughts on how things worked.
The GT
The event was ITC style, with the beta FAQ. There was a single special secondary mission, Remember the Alamo, where you got 1 point for every 500 points of your army that got destroyed. When I read it, I was tempted to try to get my hands on 1500 points of spore mines, but instead ran the list I have been working on since the FAQ invalidated my Swarlord+'stealer drop build. The event had a bit under 90 players, was well ran except for the occasion issue with the BCP app, and had strong TO support. Terrain was solid, although a little sparse on some of mid tables. Top 15 or so tables had plenty of large LOS blocking pieces.
I missed my first game due to car issues, and played the second round against the lowest ranked player, who is a solid player but was still trying to wrap his head around an army switch from wolves to Necrons. I ended up going 3-1-1. I saw several other Tyranid players on the upper tables, with one starting round 4 in first place.
There appeared to be the normal range of armies. Lots of Tyranids (YAY!), Eldar (BOO!) and IG (of course). The FAQ seems to have successfully suppressed deep strike/reserve builds. I didn't take the time to review all the lists. Wandering around the tables I didn't see the masses of drop plasma IG that I'm used to. I also didn't see any Blood Angels. I'm sure there was at least one somewhere.
My Army
I ran a 'stealer/'gaunt horde, three battalions, taking advantage of the 5 CP thing. I did not have the chance to playtest before the event (grad school sucks).
My general plan was to rush with the Kraken and deep strike the Jorgmundr turn 2 to deal with vehicles and clear chaff. The Kronos was there to grab objectives/deep strike in annoying places, and for the Kronos strat. Originally I was looking at running 60 'stealers, but there was no way for me to get the third squad build in time for the event. My warlord was one of the Jorgmundr Neurothropes, using the Jorgmundr warlord trait on the off chance I was able to get value from it.
By and large it worked. The Rippers and the sheer speed of Kraken led to me getting First Blood/Linebreaker for the one that I did not take Old School. I maxed Recon in every game, again due to Rippers and 'stealers.
My first game (round 2), against Necron's, was 50/50 until I killed his wraiths, then it turned in my favor rather quickly.
Game two was against a Wolf player trying to get small squads of Wolfen to work, supported by a Fire Raptor. It was a bad match up for him. It took 2 turns for the Hive Guard to kill the Fire Raptor, after that it was just mopping up.
Game three was against Guard. He had several small squads of infantry, various artillery tanks, a Hellhound and a fancy acid flamer tank, ogren, and a bunch of special characters, including 3 assassins. I traded once squad of 'stealers and the Broodlord for his infantry, smote down the acid flamer tank, shock cannoned the other one, and the game ended on time with me having ~15 or so 'stealers + 3 Neuro's and maybe half my 'gaunts vs his artillery tanks for a solid win.
Game four was against Death Guard: Morty, a deamon prince, Magnus, 2 Plague Crawlers, Tallyman, and marines. He let me go first, not realizing just how fast I could cross the table, and I got Magnus with 1st turn 'stealers. It went back and forth, with it ending (on turns) as a draw, mostly because the deamon prince would not fail saves. Second turn I was able to charge the thing with the Broodlord, did 0 wounds, died to the hits back. I ended up finishing him off with 'gaunts on turn 4, after spending turns 2 and 3 killing Morty (including my warlord perils of the warping himself to death in exchange for 4 mortals on Morty, who saved them all) and hitting the prince with everything I had left turn 4. Game ended a draw on turn 5 with less than 5 minutes left in the round.
Thoughts on the List
Mass Kraken 'stealers is all its cracked up to be. I feel the Broodlord is worth bringing simply because of the 2+ to hit bubble. He was very much a glass cannon, hitting something then getting killed, and didn't really deal enough damage to make up for his cost on his own, but the extra hits on the first turn charging 'stealer squad more than made up the difference. Said squad was normally close to full sized, and swinging twice, with only 2-3 models out of combat to tail back to him.
The same concept applied to the Venomthropes. I didn't expect that much out of them, but they provided enough first turn protection to justify being brought.
The shock Guard did their job but were streaky. The variance caused by having D3 shots was annoying. Bringing them and the devilgaunts in with the same unit of Raveners was more frustrating than I had expected. I knew that I would have issues with the two units preferring different targets, but thought that the range of their weapons would help. It did not.
The big unit of devilgaunts ended up feeling unnecessary. I'm used to using them as a chaff clearing unit in a Swarmlord/'Stealer list, and they did wonderfully there. They helped in my last game, putting wounds on Morty, and they helped in my first game by killing a few Wraiths, but in both cases equal points of Hive Guard or of 'stealers would have been just as good.
I could have dropped a devilgaunt from the big unit of 'gaunts to bump up the small units from 19 to 20 models to get the reroll, but I figured that they would take casualties fast enough that it would not matter. This turned out to be not true. The 'stealers grabbed lots of attention, and the 'gaunts tended to be ignored until mid game. The 5 devourers per ended up getting a lot of value plinking at units that were low priority.
The Raveners also ended up being more useful than expected. Again, the Genestealers attracted so much attention that they didn't get focused on until mid/late game, giving them the chance to do something.
Changes and Lessons Learned
The change from 3 to 5 CP is amazing. I have always front loaded my use of CP, on the logic that tilting a game early was better than saving them. I started with 18, used 3 for deepstriking units, and burned the rest like candy. I was able to double tap and double fight 2-3 times in every game, and still had CP to use for the odd reroll or strat.
Once I get my hands on 20 more 'stealers and sell a small child to pay for Forge World, the Kraken detachment is going to turn into 60 'stealers, the Broodlord, and a Malanthrope. The shrouding bubble only matters 1st turn, if I go second, so I'm not concerned about it only being 3". I need the character protection on the -1 to hit the Malanthrope provides. I got lucky by never being in a situation where an opponent with the firepower to nuke the Venomthropes went first against me.
I think the devilgaunts turn into 6 more shock Guard, or 6 Kronos Impaler Guard. 12 shock Guard dropping in with the Raveners, half of them double tapping, is a hard antitank punch.
I liked the medium squads of Termagants. I think the sweet spot is 20-25 models, with 10 of them having devourers. They occupy space, are durable, and will consistently tick wounds off anything that gets close enough to threaten them. Ideally the Jorgmundr would have three units of them, but points wise it is going to be tricky to make fit.
The Kronos did exactly what it was intended to. I was very happy with it. My only debate was between the Jorgmundr warlord and a Kronos warlord. My understanding is that warlord is chosen at the same time you select powers, so I may build a fancy Kronos Neurothrope (I've been using my old Doom of Malanti kitbash and have it based as Jorgi) and swap between the two depending on the opponent.
Points wise it is going to be tricky to get everything I want to fit. I'm feel like between the 'stealers, the Hive Guard, and the gaunts, i'm going to be able to get two out of three of the parts I want. I'll need to play with list builder for a while. I'm on the fence about more shock Guard or using Kronos Impaler Guard instead.
Nice write up. I have 54 GS and 2 BL and have been toying with trying that as well. Interesting observation about taking 20+ gaunts to get the reroll. I too have been fielding 19 to avoid giving up the secondaries. But now that I think about it, my HT and Genestealers ARE the ones always drawing the fire.
Might be worth a go.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: Hi Babelfish, thanks for the great post, but I'm a little confused -- how'd you have 5 Neurothropes in your list?
That was due to rewriting an old list while on autopilot due to little sleep and not catching the error until after the event. If I had done well enough to impact the standings, it would have been an issue, but missing my first game made it not matter.
I'm working on an improved and fully legal update to the list, I'll put it up in a day or two when I get it finished.
Kraken Spearhead:
Neurothrope (Warlord: One step ahead, Norn Crown, Onslaught)
Old One Eye
3x 3 Carnifex (Bone Mace, Acid Maw, Spore Cyst, 2x Devourers)
-> 9CP, 1997 points
He had Magnus, Rubrics, Ahriman, 1x Terminators, 2x Predators, and bit other stuff i cant remember (we had to pack really fast because the store was about to close and we were already 15 minutes over time, so i couldnt write down everything)
Mission: Maelstrom, tactical escalation, beta rules
He had really bad luck, getting first turn but failing warptime with magnus standing in front of my carnifex cluster (3+invuln anyhow). Screened by Rippers he could not get the charge of to the big ones (he wanted to jump behind my army and kill my neuros backfield) and got charged in my turn 1 bad by OOE, and 4 carnis. After this he was down on 5 wounds remaining. Turn 2 Magnus was down after killing OOE and both Predators dropped to BS 4+.
The shooting from his side was nearly not interesting, due to -1 to hit on my biggies. His psi got me hard instead, losing big chunks of wounds.
Terminators dropped down turn 2, killed some rippers and got their 11" charge of to my warlord, not killing it. Echo from Smite and 3x Carnifex kicked them off the table.
Turn 3-4 i crossed the table, shredding everything appart with my devourers and hive guard. Lost 3 carnis in the process, leaving 2 on 1 wound and one on 3 wounds but erasing eveything except from Ahriman off the table.
I wondered how effective Carnifex mass drop could be and was surprised of the good performance, even thought my opponent is meant to be a league player and it was a random pick up game (didnt know his list/army).
I had a feeling he was not fully into the game, or his list was not that optimized. Dont know chaos that much...
Ending the game turn 4 with 11 to 4 points for me.
Thoughts on my list.
- MVP was the Skyslashers. While everything was about to get that nasty monsters off the table they scored point after point.
- Carnifex: was interesting to see them grit blasting infantry and doing their job in melee as well. Was a bit of a hit back to lose OOE turn 2, but worked out quite well. Kraken is amazing, beeing able to recharge every turn, giving Carnifex +1 to hit and mortal wounds on 4+.
- OOE: is a beast, but even with catalyst not that durable against good melee units, adrenalin rush and death frenzy made him even deadlier but not more survivable
- Neurothrope: solid, having the norn crown worked out quite well, giving both hive guard units synapse. Shadow in the Warp was a nuisance all game long.
- Hive Guard: solid, doing their 'long range' job
I think i will try this some more times. Its very fun to play.
Kraken Spearhead:
Neurothrope (Warlord: One step ahead, Norn Crown, Onslaught)
Old One Eye
3x 3 Carnifex (Bone Mace, Acid Maw, Spore Cyst, 2x Devourers)
-> 9CP, 1997 points
Thoughts on my list.
- MVP was the Skyslashers. While everything was about to get that nasty monsters off the table they scored point after point.
- Carnifex: was interesting to see them grit blasting infantry and doing their job in melee as well. Was a bit of a hit back to lose OOE turn 2, but worked out quite well. Kraken is amazing, beeing able to recharge every turn, giving Carnifex +1 to hit and mortal wounds on 4+.
- OOE: is a beast, but even with catalyst not that durable against good melee units, adrenalin rush and death frenzy made him even deadlier but not more survivable
- Neurothrope: solid, having the norn crown worked out quite well, giving both hive guard units synapse. Shadow in the Warp was a nuisance all game long.
- Hive Guard: solid, doing their 'long range' job
I think i will try this some more times. Its very fun to play.
I like the list, kind of wish I had enough Carnifex to copy it and try it for myself. Couple questions for you:
Did the Skyslashers work out better than Rippers would have? I can see the logic, wonder how well it worked.
Have you considered running 6x Hive Guard? You only lose one model and you get to double tap with a full sized squad instead of the 4x squad.
If you could find the points for another Neurothrope, you could shuffle things around to get a Kronos Battalion for the Hive Guard. Reroll 1's, shut down spells. Or is Old One Eye an HQ? I don't play enough with him to know off the top of my head. If so, you wouldn't need to get the other Neurothrope.
Kraken Spearhead:
Neurothrope (Warlord: One step ahead, Norn Crown, Onslaught)
Old One Eye
3x 3 Carnifex (Bone Mace, Acid Maw, Spore Cyst, 2x Devourers)
-> 9CP, 1997 points
Thoughts on my list.
- MVP was the Skyslashers. While everything was about to get that nasty monsters off the table they scored point after point.
- Carnifex: was interesting to see them grit blasting infantry and doing their job in melee as well. Was a bit of a hit back to lose OOE turn 2, but worked out quite well. Kraken is amazing, beeing able to recharge every turn, giving Carnifex +1 to hit and mortal wounds on 4+.
- OOE: is a beast, but even with catalyst not that durable against good melee units, adrenalin rush and death frenzy made him even deadlier but not more survivable
- Neurothrope: solid, having the norn crown worked out quite well, giving both hive guard units synapse. Shadow in the Warp was a nuisance all game long.
- Hive Guard: solid, doing their 'long range' job
I think i will try this some more times. Its very fun to play.
I like the list, kind of wish I had enough Carnifex to copy it and try it for myself. Couple questions for you:
Did the Skyslashers work out better than Rippers would have? I can see the logic, wonder how well it worked.
Skyslashers have 12" movement and cant shoot. So i advance them often, which brings a big movement boost for objectives. In addition they are very small and can be hidden very well. Only 'problem', they are not troops, but for the cost they are worth it in my opinion.
Having rippers AND skyslashers brings lot of utility. Hold your own and grab the opponent ones. I always hold 1-2 ripper swarms in reserve, depending on battlefield and opponent.
Have you considered running 6x Hive Guard? You only lose one model and you get to double tap with a full sized squad instead of the 4x squad.
Yes i considered using a big unit of hive guard. But with 2 units you can adapt better to the battlefield and cover a bigger area while forcing the enemy to divide firepower. Smaller units can also better be hidden in cover than one big unit. Sure, double-tap is not that effective, but it worked out fine for me.
With one big unit i would have to pack them in the middle of the battlefield to cover as much space as possible. This restriction for placement can be avoided by dividing them.
If you could find the points for another Neurothrope, you could shuffle things around to get a Kronos Battalion for the Hive Guard. Reroll 1's, shut down spells. Or is Old One Eye an HQ? I don't play enough with him to know off the top of my head. If so, you wouldn't need to get the other Neurothrope.
I already got 3 Neurothropes, not possible to add another one (rule of three). In addition it is essential to have synaptic coverage of my 3 carnifex groups (instictice behaviour, Kronos=/=Kraken synapse). One neurothrope runs each with one group and the warlord sits behind as long as possible, using 30" Synapse to cover both hive guard units and the third group with OOE.
Old One Eye is indeed a HQ choice.
b.) Nuerothrope + 3x Biovores but +4CP thanks to Battalion
For my Leviathan list. Worth mentioning that the 2nd one gives me backfield synapse for both Biovores plus the unit of Hive Guard I already have if needed, not sure how big a deal that is though. Thoughts? The Exocrine is obviously a lot more powerful than the other two. But the other one has benefits.
b.) Nuerothrope + 3x Biovores but +4CP thanks to Battalion
For my Leviathan list. Worth mentioning that the 2nd one gives me backfield synapse for both Biovores plus the unit of Hive Guard I already have if needed, not sure how big a deal that is though. Thoughts? The Exocrine is obviously a lot more powerful than the other two. But the other one has benefits.
I'd keep the exocrine and find a way to cut 70 points somewhere else to make the battalion. Biovores are no longer worth with the recent points hike.
If you could find the points for another Neurothrope, you could shuffle things around to get a Kronos Battalion for the Hive Guard. Reroll 1's, shut down spells. Or is Old One Eye an HQ? I don't play enough with him to know off the top of my head. If so, you wouldn't need to get the other Neurothrope.
His list is unique in that the fex are already -1 to hit, but I've found that having my Hive Guard outside of a -1 to hit aura is just a feels bad moment. Yes, you can hide out of LOS most times, but being -1 to hit is just so huge, especially if the BLOS terrain is off to one side and you can't get proper target selection from behind it. Whether a Kraken Malanthrope or Venomthropes, I just can't see myself leaving home with Kronos any more since you can't afford to have a force multiplier in each Hive Fleet.
b.) Nuerothrope + 3x Biovores but +4CP thanks to Battalion
For my Leviathan list. Worth mentioning that the 2nd one gives me backfield synapse for both Biovores plus the unit of Hive Guard I already have if needed, not sure how big a deal that is though. Thoughts? The Exocrine is obviously a lot more powerful than the other two. But the other one has benefits.
I'd keep the exocrine and find a way to cut 70 points somewhere else to make the battalion. Biovores are no longer worth with the recent points hike.
Good suggestion, but this is my flex points I'm talking about here, I remove other gak and the list falls apart
b.) Nuerothrope + 3x Biovores but +4CP thanks to Battalion
For my Leviathan list. Worth mentioning that the 2nd one gives me backfield synapse for both Biovores plus the unit of Hive Guard I already have if needed, not sure how big a deal that is though. Thoughts? The Exocrine is obviously a lot more powerful than the other two. But the other one has benefits.
I would personally take B. Biovores are more expensive but FAIR cost now, where as before they were a steal. STill do mortal wounds and have board control. The Neuro syngergize will with Leviathan as you pointed out grant the extra FNP Save. +4 CP is the kicker, we have so many stratagems that need CP its just a must. Not to mention if the Neuro is baby sitting the Biovores and somehow they do get charged by some fast moving stuff your can always pop War on All Fronts stratagem to help kill stuff quicker.
The exocrine is non synapse, which mean you are still needing to baby sit him with something else, or you lose your choice at targets, losing the FnP, he is hitting on 4's and only 6 shots. Thats double the Biovores, BUT the biovores do mortal wounds, and if you don't miss you still get your damage output. Plus with those CP you can always put shoot twice on a stronger unit.
Rest of the list is 6x Enhanced Sense Dakkafex with 2x 9man Warrior units and a Prime, with 6x Venomthrope covering them. Some Rippers too. Really all the synapse is moving up the field so maybe the Neurothrope is the right call, to watch the 6 Hive Guard. A single random backfield Nuerothrope feels like wasted points though when I already have so much Synapse and another HQ.
SHUPPET wrote: Rest of the list is 6x Enhanced Sense Dakkafex with 2x 9man Warrior units and a Prime, with 6x Venomthrope covering them. Some Rippers too. Really all the synapse is moving up the field so maybe the Neurothrope is the right call, to watch the 6 Hive Guard. A single random backfield Nuerothrope feels like wasted points though when I already have so much Synapse and another HQ.
I ran a simillalist with 2x 6 man warriors, prime, malanthrope, 3x Carnie, rippers and GS. did well with the Synapse.
Make the Neuro your Warlord. The dakka fexes will be plenty of work, so excorine seems to just be more anti tank, where as the biovores give board control, mortal wounds (as does neuro) and you get the extra CP.
His list is unique in that the fex are already -1 to hit, but I've found that having my Hive Guard outside of a -1 to hit aura is just a feels bad moment. Yes, you can hide out of LOS most times, but being -1 to hit is just so huge, especially if the BLOS terrain is off to one side and you can't get proper target selection from behind it. Whether a Kraken Malanthrope or Venomthropes, I just can't see myself leaving home with Kronos any more since you can't afford to have a force multiplier in each Hive Fleet.
The built in -1 to hit on the fexes is gold. I have had success with a min Kronos + Hive Guard, using Ripper deep strike to try and get value from the strat/claim objectives and hiding the Hive Guard out of line of sight. My area tends to play ITC rules and has decent terrain, so finding them a hiding spot is normally possible for me. I wouldn't run Malan/Venomthropes in Kronos unless I was going pure gunline with Exocrines/T-fexes.
I’m going to be running the 3x3 Zoanthrope stratagem in a game, and was pondering the best way to get it in range. It seems like Jormungandr with deepstriking ravener delivery is optimal, with a Neurothrope in the back and maybe some gaunts in front to soak charges.
If things work out, they pop in turn 2 and deliver the mortal wound bomb at the same time a Mawloc pops up and does additional wounds, while a Maleceptor double moves up the field and gets in range to deliver its own mortal wound aura. Granted this won’t be optimal against a lot of lists, but any sort of gunline should suffer massive damage from it, with a ton of 3/4++ invuln monsters in their face.
For the psychic barrage zoans, you don't really need a nuero since rerolling 1's doesn't matter.
More important to bring either a malanthrope with them, or if your going full jormy bomb, a tyranid prime with some warriors.
The idea is that the nuros come in, bomb the heck of out everything, and the warriors shoot up the weakened stuff, then charge the vehicles/characters that are in range.
Its a really nasty list, as they HAVE to deal with the warriors who are in them, then they have to get past the ravagers as well before they can go for the zoans.
Hopefully they ignore the zoans for a turn and you get to pop the strat again just because of the overwhelming pressure.
Eihnlazer wrote: For the psychic barrage zoans, you don't really need a nuero since rerolling 1's doesn't matter.
More important to bring either a malanthrope with them, or if your going full jormy bomb, a tyranid prime with some warriors.
The idea is that the nuros come in, bomb the heck of out everything, and the warriors shoot up the weakened stuff, then charge the vehicles/characters that are in range.
Its a really nasty list, as they HAVE to deal with the warriors who are in them, then they have to get past the ravagers as well before they can go for the zoans.
Hopefully they ignore the zoans for a turn and you get to pop the strat again just because of the overwhelming pressure.
Maybe Genestealers instead of Warriors? Bigger threat but you loose the shooting.
Malanthropes can’t pop in due to not being infantry, but venomthropes would work. I could do Ravener deepstrikers with deathspitters, warriors with deathspitters/boneswords, 3 units of zoanthropes, and 3 venomthropes. If there’s room I do want the neurothrope in there for rerolls on psychic tests when I can’t do the mortal wound bomb anymore. There should be plenty of room for that.
Badablack wrote:When it comes to running the big melee beasties (haruspex, toxicrene, maleceptor kinda) I don’t think it’s really possible except with Kraken and first turn assaults. You need at least one of them in the enemy gunline or they’ll be too shot up by lascannons to have any real effectiveness. Just having 2-3” of better movement is not nearly enough.
From my experience it isn't so much getting a turn-1 charge with them as much as insuring that whatever you want to send them against is pinned down beforehand. If a big beast does manage to get into combat turn 1 by themselves the foe will just back away and light them up, but if the foe is contending with a swarm of Hormagaunts or Gargolyes it is much harder to escape.
I'm really liking Leviathan with the non-Trygon melee beasts. Hiding large creatures in a Tyrannocyte offers a bit of protection against alpha strikes plus makes it fairly easy to enable War on All Fronts to make up for the lack of scything talon rerolls.
Xenomancers wrote:Been toying around with Haruspex. It is a really fun unit. It is overpriced for sure but with some minor tweaks it could be really good.
I think the current price is fairly close to being good (it is one of the cheapest T8 models in the game currently), what it really needs is for the other T8 bugs to get a reduction to make a full skew list viable. With the right pricing a list with 3 Tervigons, 3 Tyrannofexes, and 3 Haruspexes backed up by a Hierodule or two could potentially be rough to deal with.
Badablack wrote:I’m going to be running the 3x3 Zoanthrope stratagem in a game, and was pondering the best way to get it in range. It seems like Jormungandr with deepstriking ravener delivery is optimal, with a Neurothrope in the back and maybe some gaunts in front to soak charges.
If things work out, they pop in turn 2 and deliver the mortal wound bomb at the same time a Mawloc pops up and does additional wounds, while a Maleceptor double moves up the field and gets in range to deliver its own mortal wound aura. Granted this won’t be optimal against a lot of lists, but any sort of gunline should suffer massive damage from it, with a ton of 3/4++ invuln monsters in their face.
Personally, I'd probably dispense with deployment gimmicks and just run the Zoanthropes broods amidst a Hydra swarm. The enemy only has so much anti-infantry to devote to their removal and the swarm insures foes will probably castle up as a countermeasure.
It's a damned shame that T-cytes are single unit transports. Z-bombs and Warrior-bombs could be so cool.
You can at least tunnel them in. No Carnifex drops is the real tragedy :( 3 in a pod would be sick, but as it currently stands the pod literally costs more than the unit. Hard to justify that.
Kraken Spearhead:
Neurothrope (Warlord: One step ahead, Norn Crown, Onslaught)
Old One Eye
3x 3 Carnifex (Bone Mace, Acid Maw, Spore Cyst, 2x Devourers)
-> 9CP, 1997 points
He had Magnus, Rubrics, Ahriman, 1x Terminators, 2x Predators, and bit other stuff i cant remember (we had to pack really fast because the store was about to close and we were already 15 minutes over time, so i couldnt write down everything)
Mission: Maelstrom, tactical escalation, beta rules
He had really bad luck, getting first turn but failing warptime with magnus standing in front of my carnifex cluster (3+invuln anyhow). Screened by Rippers he could not get the charge of to the big ones (he wanted to jump behind my army and kill my neuros backfield) and got charged in my turn 1 bad by OOE, and 4 carnis. After this he was down on 5 wounds remaining. Turn 2 Magnus was down after killing OOE and both Predators dropped to BS 4+.
The shooting from his side was nearly not interesting, due to -1 to hit on my biggies. His psi got me hard instead, losing big chunks of wounds.
Terminators dropped down turn 2, killed some rippers and got their 11" charge of to my warlord, not killing it. Echo from Smite and 3x Carnifex kicked them off the table.
Turn 3-4 i crossed the table, shredding everything appart with my devourers and hive guard. Lost 3 carnis in the process, leaving 2 on 1 wound and one on 3 wounds but erasing eveything except from Ahriman off the table.
I wondered how effective Carnifex mass drop could be and was surprised of the good performance, even thought my opponent is meant to be a league player and it was a random pick up game (didnt know his list/army).
I had a feeling he was not fully into the game, or his list was not that optimized. Dont know chaos that much...
Ending the game turn 4 with 11 to 4 points for me.
Thoughts on my list.
- MVP was the Skyslashers. While everything was about to get that nasty monsters off the table they scored point after point.
- Carnifex: was interesting to see them grit blasting infantry and doing their job in melee as well. Was a bit of a hit back to lose OOE turn 2, but worked out quite well. Kraken is amazing, beeing able to recharge every turn, giving Carnifex +1 to hit and mortal wounds on 4+.
- OOE: is a beast, but even with catalyst not that durable against good melee units, adrenalin rush and death frenzy made him even deadlier but not more survivable
- Neurothrope: solid, having the norn crown worked out quite well, giving both hive guard units synapse. Shadow in the Warp was a nuisance all game long.
- Hive Guard: solid, doing their 'long range' job
I think i will try this some more times. Its very fun to play.
I've run a pretty similar list to that many times. It rakes.
How are people getting LOS with flying tyrants? Unless you can model them with their wings somehow folded closed, those guys are visible behind anything but the biggest terrain.
Badablack wrote: How are people getting LOS with flying tyrants? Unless you can model them with their wings somehow folded closed, those guys are visible behind anything but the biggest terrain.
I posted a while back that I'm new to Tyranids and got some help with my purchases but now I'm staring down that last 500 points to head to 2k and could really use a hand.
I'm not sure I have enough on the board exactly to take advantage of being Tyranids. I've been looking at Genestealers for options but I'm not sure a 500 point investment in them is enough. I am a big fan of the Pyrovore/Exocrine/Hormagaunt models. And I'm certainly not entirely opposed to replacing my Termagants (that's about 320 points of troops there).
This is for competitively casual/local tournament play.
I posted a while back that I'm new to Tyranids and got some help with my purchases but now I'm staring down that last 500 points to head to 2k and could really use a hand.
I'm not sure I have enough on the board exactly to take advantage of being Tyranids. I've been looking at Genestealers for options but I'm not sure a 500 point investment in them is enough. I am a big fan of the Pyrovore/Exocrine/Hormagaunt models. And I'm certainly not entirely opposed to replacing my Termagants (that's about 320 points of troops there).
This is for competitively casual/local tournament play.
Thanks in advance - you're always the best.
I won't recommend what models to grab, but I will say 500 points of Genestealers is two full squads worth, which is probably the baseline for running Stealers, it's a pretty strong addition that will probably serve you pretty well going forward. They are also troops so it will let you condense those Termagants into a larger squads for the strength-in-numbers bonuses while still getting the battalion CP. Hormagants + Exocrine could be a good addition too though. Get 1 or 2 min size Ripper Swarms since you still have a small collection, for 33 pts it will ease pressure on the amount of troops you need, will let you easy grab an objective every game.
Kronos doesn't do anything for Acid Spray Tyrannofex who are both close range units who also don't roll to hit, and other then Hive Guard the entire rest of your army is built around units who want to be moving around or forward, so I don't know if Kronos is the right call for what you got. Unless Kronos is important to you or something, and you are asking which models to get? In which case go shooty things like the Exocrine
Overall Kronos has some neat fluff but I'm not entirely sold on them. I'll admit I'm really struggling to know which warlord traits, hive fleets, etc are solid in the book.
I think I overbought on Tyrannofex long term - I have a Custodes army that scares the daylights out of me locally that I wanted to be able to put a little fear in them from coming too near my stuff. So my picture in my head was largely everything but the Termagants remaining pretty stationary.
I think Exocrine + Hormagants might be the best bet for me as I'm not a hyper fan of the Genestealer models (but I do love using great units to crush friends). Condense down that Termagant group a bit too so I can have a larger squad.
I'm looking at Norn Crown for my relic because I'm struggling so badly at picking out what is good in the book.
Overall Kronos has some neat fluff but I'm not entirely sold on them. I'll admit I'm really struggling to know which warlord traits, hive fleets, etc are solid in the book.
I think I overbought on Tyrannofex long term - I have a Custodes army that scares the daylights out of me locally that I wanted to be able to put a little fear in them from coming too near my stuff. So my picture in my head was largely everything but the Termagants remaining pretty stationary.
I think Exocrine + Hormagants might be the best bet for me as I'm not a hyper fan of the Genestealer models (but I do love using great units to crush friends). Condense down that Termagant group a bit too so I can have a larger squad.
I'm looking at Norn Crown for my relic because I'm struggling so badly at picking out what is good in the book.
Most the Hivefleet seem pretty good except for Hydra. The rest are mostly about what benefits your army best.
Don't over think the relics, they're all pretty boring. I just grab Norn Crown as well.
I bought 2 Tyrannofex too, and that was two editions ago when they were cheeks, they are actually pretty decent now so I wouldn't feel bad. Are yours glued up? I think Acid Spray Fex really puts the hurt on if something ends its turn inside Acid Spray range, and they are immune to hit modifiers which is kinda cool, and they are a real brick on field. Area denial x punishing aggressive play is exactly what they do well. I do miss their 2+ save, sucks that had to go it was kinda iconic for them in the dex, I even painted my carapace different to reflect that, but oh well.
Leviathan is a pretty solid Hivefleet, it's hard to go wrong with it, just keep a model from each unit within 6" of a Synapse creature and everything now has 6+ fnp. It's pretty versatile and effectively just means your opponent has to remove almost another 20% worth of wounds from your entire army, and makes your two Acid Spray Tyrannofex an even tougher target to take lff the board. Just get something to support their complete lack of cc which has always been a relevant weakness for such a close range model, I think the Stealers would be nice here. Leviathan is what I use. You may need another Synapse creature though (a Broodlord with those Genestealers would be nice and cheap to convert).
I think the GS would be good. Help you get charge threat, and they are a great unit. Rippers would be good for objective grabbers. Might want to consider some Dakkafex or Biovores as well.
Badablack wrote: How are people getting LOS with flying tyrants? Unless you can model them with their wings somehow folded closed, those guys are visible behind anything but the biggest terrain.
That's what LOS is.... Line Of Sight
Clearly he means how are people keeping their hive tyrants out of LOS.
Unless you’re deep striking, you are not. Even the mighty Nova L’s are a tall task to hide behind against even a remotely mobile army.
On the plus side, if they can see you, you can see them. Feels weird using wing tips to draw LOS to shoot, but remember they’re doing the same thing to you.
This also emphasizes the importance of Malanthropes and (my personal favorite lately) venomthropes
SHUPPET wrote: Hey guys, Deathspitters or Devourers on Dakkafex / Flyrant? Anyone done the math, what are the thoughts here?
Devourers are better against almost everything except T7 3+. The additional 6" on the Deathspitters range does mean a potential additional turn of shooting for a footslogging Dakkafex or Walkrant, but it is irrelevant on a Flyrant.
Badablack wrote: How are people getting LOS with flying tyrants? Unless you can model them with their wings somehow folded closed, those guys are visible behind anything but the biggest terrain.
That's what LOS is.... Line Of Sight
Clearly he means how are people keeping their hive tyrants out of LOS.
Nope. If you read the context, he responded to a guy who had just said "Flyrants are deployed on the table in LOS. Since they can ignore it for movement purposes."
His response made it clear he had a misunderstanding somewhere on either what that sentence or what the acronym meant, so I clarified for him.
Honestly, its near impossible to hide a Flyrant out of LoS, even with a big fat Building right in the middle of the table. Thats why i use a Malanthrope with them to give them some turn 1 protection + camaleonic mutation + adaptive biology on the warlord
-2 to hit on the warlord in turn 1 is a pain for most shooters, after that the malanthrope either tries to keep up by advancing or switches over to protecting some carnifexes (i use mine with enhanced senses)
nordsturmking wrote: I have the 3rd ed. Hive Tyrants they are way easier to hide. I plan on using the Swarmlord with 2x20 GS in a tournament do you think he is worth it?
nordsturmking wrote: I have the 3rd ed. Hive Tyrants they are way easier to hide. I plan on using the Swarmlord with 2x20 GS in a tournament do you think he is worth it?
Managed a tie against a nasty eldar list. Just make sure you can hide your Swarmlord out of LoS for first turn.
Yes Swarmy is 100% worth it. I know the guy who built that list and it is very good. I took it to a local event last Saturday and it did well. Got second because I lost to another Tyranid player (who placed first) so that wasn’t too bad. And tbh I only lost because I picked the wrong secondaries. And because there was a massive piece of impassable terrain (like 12”x12”) that prevented me from wrapping his units in assault so that I couldn’t stop him from retreating from combat and dakkafexing my face off. But you live and you learn.
And for those of you who don’t know Nanavati, he’s one of the premier 40k players in the world, playing his tournament Eldar list. While Dallas is a very good player in his own right, it just goes to show that Nids have the tools to deal with anything. Love where we’re at right now in the competitive scene.
nordsturmking wrote: I have the 3rd ed. Hive Tyrants they are way easier to hide. I plan on using the Swarmlord with 2x20 GS in a tournament do you think he is worth it?
nordsturmking wrote: I have the 3rd ed. Hive Tyrants they are way easier to hide. I plan on using the Swarmlord with 2x20 GS in a tournament do you think he is worth it?
Managed a tie against a nasty eldar list. Just make sure you can hide your Swarmlord out of LoS for first turn.
Yes Swarmy is 100% worth it. I know the guy who built that list and it is very good. I took it to a local event last Saturday and it did well. Got second because I lost to another Tyranid player (who placed first) so that wasn’t too bad. And tbh I only lost because I picked the wrong secondaries. And because there was a massive piece of impassable terrain (like 12”x12”) that prevented me from wrapping his units in assault so that I couldn’t stop him from retreating from combat and dakkafexing my face off. But you live and you learn.
And for those of you who don’t know Nanavati, he’s one of the premier 40k players in the world, playing his tournament Eldar list. While Dallas is a very good player in his own right, it just goes to show that Nids have the tools to deal with anything. Love where we’re at right now in the competitive scene.
I've played a few games now and definitely getting a feel for 8th.
Is this the best our dex has ever been? It's definitely the best I've ever seen it (but only been here since early 5th, I think thats missing a dex). Every troop is a competitive choice, every HQ is viable (even if some are niche), we have options for every single playstyle, and there's only a small handful of units in the dex that don't seem that great. Anti-armor seems to be where we have a bit less options (as per usual) but 6 man Hive Gaurd units seem really strong thanks to stratagems. How do you guys feel about Rupture Cannon Tyrannofex?
The main gakker in the dex for me seems to be the drop pod. It's so expensive that a Jorm detachment is a much better way of deepstriking any infantry, and since the pod can only carry 1 mc at a time and costs as much or more than most of them, possibilities for getting any sort of use out of them seem extremely limited. I'd give Acid Spray Tyrannofex a try, but deepstrike counts as moving so they don't get double shot until they are in range anyway, so it seems worse than just moving them up the board, since thanks to deepstrike rules it will probably take a similar amount of turns anyway to get in range and save you a shitton of points. Might be time to let Carnifex broods get in pods, or significantly lower the price.
Just my thoughts. Anyway, very happy with Nids dex, dunno what I was worried about. Playing them again reminds me how much I love bugs
Fueli wrote: I think the guy who wrote the list has been running third flyrant lately too. I'm fairly sure I bumped into such discussion on some other forum.
SHUPPET wrote: I've played a few games now and definitely getting a feel for 8th.
Is this the best our dex has ever been? It's definitely the best I've ever seen it (but only been here since early 5th, I think thats missing a dex). Every troop is a competitive choice, every HQ is viable (even if some are niche), we have options for every single playstyle, and there's only a small handful of units in the dex that don't seem that great. Anti-armor seems to be where we have a bit less options (as per usual) but 6 man Hive Gaurd units seem really strong thanks to stratagems. How do you guys feel about Rupture Cannon Tyrannofex?
The main gakker in the dex for me seems to be the drop pod. It's so expensive that a Jorm detachment is a much better way of deepstriking any infantry, and since the pod can only carry 1 mc at a time and costs as much or more than most of them, possibilities for getting any sort of use out of them seem extremely limited. I'd give Acid Spray Tyrannofex a try, but deepstrike counts as moving so they don't get double shot until they are in range anyway, so it seems worse than just moving them up the board, since thanks to deepstrike rules it will probably take a similar amount of turns anyway to get in range and save you a shitton of points. Might be time to let Carnifex broods get in pods, or significantly lower the price.
Just my thoughts. Anyway, very happy with Nids dex, dunno what I was worried about. Playing them again reminds me how much I love bugs
Acid Spray Tyrannofex can be a real pain if your opponent comes close fast, got nasty flyers, or depends on scout scum. 18" is not much, but it can hurt anything except of big tanks really hard. Units like bikes are not amused by this guy.
By simply just placing one on the table, you sometimes can change the opponents tactics of rushing you to better stay back, which gives you room.
The acid spray variant has the additional bonus not to need the Kronos-fleet, because it hits automatically and you dont care that much about degrading. S7/S6 is good enough for most units beeing a close/midrange threat.
I like him and use him regular. Not in high competitive games, but i frightened custodes bikes with 2 of them.
SHUPPET wrote: I've played a few games now and definitely getting a feel for 8th.
Is this the best our dex has ever been? It's definitely the best I've ever seen it (but only been here since early 5th, I think thats missing a dex). Every troop is a competitive choice, every HQ is viable (even if some are niche), we have options for every single playstyle, and there's only a small handful of units in the dex that don't seem that great. Anti-armor seems to be where we have a bit less options (as per usual) but 6 man Hive Gaurd units seem really strong thanks to stratagems. How do you guys feel about Rupture Cannon Tyrannofex?
The main gakker in the dex for me seems to be the drop pod. It's so expensive that a Jorm detachment is a much better way of deepstriking any infantry, and since the pod can only carry 1 mc at a time and costs as much or more than most of them, possibilities for getting any sort of use out of them seem extremely limited. I'd give Acid Spray Tyrannofex a try, but deepstrike counts as moving so they don't get double shot until they are in range anyway, so it seems worse than just moving them up the board, since thanks to deepstrike rules it will probably take a similar amount of turns anyway to get in range and save you a shitton of points. Might be time to let Carnifex broods get in pods, or significantly lower the price.
Just my thoughts. Anyway, very happy with Nids dex, dunno what I was worried about. Playing them again reminds me how much I love bugs
Acid Spray Tyrannofex can be a real pain if your opponent comes close fast, got nasty flyers, or depends on scout scum. 18" is not much, but it can hurt anything except of big tanks really hard. Units like bikes are not amused by this guy.
By simply just placing one on the table, you sometimes can change the opponents tactics of rushing you to better stay back, which gives you room.
The acid spray variant has the additional bonus not to need the Kronos-fleet, because it hits automatically and you dont care that much about degrading. S7/S6 is good enough for most units beeing a close/midrange threat.
I like him and use him regular. Not in high competitive games, but i frightened custodes bikes with 2 of them.
Acid Spray Tyrannofex is not the model I doubt, I'm saying I think drop spores suck, and that maybe Acid Spray TFex would be a good use for them if they were written differently but as it stands I don't think paying for a pod for them is worthwhile either.
Fueli wrote: I think the guy who wrote the list has been running third flyrant lately too. I'm fairly sure I bumped into such discussion on some other forum.
The main gakker in the dex for me seems to be the drop pod. It's so expensive that a Jorm detachment is a much better way of deepstriking any infantry, and since the pod can only carry 1 mc at a time and costs as much or more than most of them, possibilities for getting any sort of use out of them seem extremely limited.
The Deathspitter-armed Tyrannocyte isn't too bad but the cost does balloon if you give them the bio-cannons (which arguably they don't need - better leave them for the immobile Sporocysts that need the added range). I've mostly been using mine with Leviathan lists, as they are an excellent enabler for War On All Fronts since they will already be operating in the mid-field by their nature and generally don't attract too much attention compared to whatever they might have transported. Also unlike a Trygon, the Tyrannocyte has Fly so it can charge over whatever cargo it unloads to soak over watch for them and it can assault the upper levels of a ruin (provided there is landing space anyway).
I think the best cargo for them are the cheaper "mid-sized" T7/12 wound monsters like the Toxicrene or Malceptor (maybe Haruspex), followed by the short-range fire support beasts like Hive Guard with Shock Cannons that like being able to hide from shooting in reserve. Warriors also aren't a terrible option for them, given that they can throw a lot of S5 firepower out upon arrival and the aforementioned War On All Fronts stratagem is very nice for bonesword armed models who otherwise don't get the reroll 1's ability.
Fueli wrote: I think the guy who wrote the list has been running third flyrant lately too. I'm fairly sure I bumped into such discussion on some other forum.
If you can free a handful of points, throwing a few devourers on the Termagants might pay off for you. I ran 5 in 19 model squads at the last event I went to, and they worked well enough for me that I regretted not finding the extra points for 20 model squads for the reroll 1's.
With that many 'stealers/hormies and a walking Swarmlord I would want either Venomthropes or a Malenthrope in the Kraken battalion. I would personally drop the Biovores and trim bodies from the Hormagaunt unit to squeeze in 3 Venomthropes. I don't see 2 Biovores doing all that much. Between the Flyrant and the Rippers you'll be able to put Kronos bodies within 24" of anything you care to deny, and that few Biovores won't do much damage. Then again, I don't run Biovores due to not liking the model, so I might be missing something.
Just got back from my very first Tyranids game playing against Dark Eldar. He played a pretty good mix of Archons, Wyches, Kabalite, Venoms, and Raiders and I played:
I don't think I've ever lost a game of 40k as badly. I'm sure a lot of it was army inexperience (for example I won turn 1 and barely moved anything at all).
The Hive Tyrants were incredible. The Tyrannofex were great until turn 2 when they just got tied up in combat by Wyches.
I'm thinking of dropping a Tyrannofex, 3 Hive Guard, and all the Termagants to replace them with a Broodlord, 3 8x Genesteal squads (2 acid maw per), and a Mawloc.
I think I tried to play an overly shooty Tyranid army against one of the better shooty armies in the game and lost that battle.
stalkerzero wrote: Just got back from my very first Tyranids game playing against Dark Eldar. He played a pretty good mix of Archons, Wyches, Kabalite, Venoms, and Raiders and I played:
I don't think I've ever lost a game of 40k as badly. I'm sure a lot of it was army inexperience (for example I won turn 1 and barely moved anything at all).
The Hive Tyrants were incredible. The Tyrannofex were great until turn 2 when they just got tied up in combat by Wyches.
I'm thinking of dropping a Tyrannofex, 3 Hive Guard, and all the Termagants to replace them with a Broodlord, 3 8x Genesteal squads (2 acid maw per), and a Mawloc.
I think I tried to play an overly shooty Tyranid army against one of the better shooty armies in the game and lost that battle.
I think you're reading too far into your models being responsible for a list that is just due to lack of optimization and smaller points value. Focus on making your list into something a little more cohesive as you build it to 2k, then from there start tweaking.
stalkerzero wrote: I don't think I've ever lost a game of 40k as badly. I'm sure a lot of it was army inexperience (for example I won turn 1 and barely moved anything at all).
The Hive Tyrants were incredible. The Tyrannofex were great until turn 2 when they just got tied up in combat by Wyches.
I'm thinking of dropping a Tyrannofex, 3 Hive Guard, and all the Termagants to replace them with a Broodlord, 3 8x Genesteal squads (2 acid maw per), and a Mawloc.
I think I tried to play an overly shooty Tyranid army against one of the better shooty armies in the game and lost that battle.
I have to agree with Shuppet, I don't think the basic framework of your list is really bad at all. If I were to tweak one thing, I'd trade some of the Devourers in each Termagant squad for models armed with Fleshborers (or Spinefists) to get more bodies on the field to screen your other creatures. Swapping one unit of Termagants for Genestealers isn't a bad idea, but I wouldn't replace all of them as you need screening bodies and the Devourer armed models are sufficiently dangerous to allow them to do work beyond taking up space.
Also keep in mind Dark Eldar have traditionally been a bad match up for 'nids and from what I have heard are fairly strong overall regardless. Don't beat yourself up over it too badly, just learn and adapt.
I'm pushing the boundaries of what is defined as "tactics discussion", but...
For 6 years now I've used magnetised Carnifex, and for 6 years I've never used anything but Dakkafex. For the third edition running I have no desire to change that, at least not for my first 6, who have been a staple of every list I play. So, it's time for me to glue something up, so that I can have something a little more cinematic than loosely hanging Fleshborers Hives.
I want to drop the Hives, they suit a Flyrant, but don't look appropriate hanging off the Fex model, at least for my personal tastes. I prefer the shorter, high rate-of-fire vibe of the official TL Devourer mold, but I'll be damned if I pay FW the ridiculous price they are asking for something that should really already be in the kit. So I'm going to put something together myself, I have some ideas in my head and I'm confident I have something I like the idea of even better than the official model.
Just wondering though, how much freedom do I have with WYISWYG at a tournament level if I plan to travel and play? This seems kinda subjective I guess and I don't want to find out the hard way. I guess contacting TO's in advance with pics is the safe way? And what should I avoid doing with such conversions in general to avoid any potential conflicts when representing something like Devs w/ Brainleeches?
Also, with Carnifex models, the top carapace with the little holes in it - is that meant to be sporocysts? Am I locked into taking that upgrade if my Fex has this? None of mine do, but this is just a curiosity. Also, do I have to physically represent "enhanced senses" on the model to get a pass?
Shuppet. Yeah, its subjective. Most people are really just talking WYISWYG for the main armament. I actually posted this same question in the tourney thread. Best bet is to ask the TO. The good thing about nids though, most people don't know what any of our guns our unless they play them lol.
For TL devouerers there are TONS of conversions online. Just google it. I have converted Deathspitters with the pinecone bit off a devouerer, HVC with Pinecone.
The Carnifex sporocyst/spinebanks and the head biomorphs ive never had anyone ding me on. Just so long as you can tell. The one exception is Old One Eye, who has the old Regen Head. But I have run carnifexs with Sporocist and enhanced senses that have had diff biomorphs on the model, no one really knows.
Question: Does the Power of the Hive Mind Stratagem allow me to cast the SAME power. If I have 2 HT both with Catalyst, to my understanding I can only have 1 of any given spell active. But if I use that stratagem could I have Catalyst on 2 units?
Question: Does the Power of the Hive Mind Stratagem allow me to cast the SAME power. If I have 2 HT both with Catalyst, to my understanding I can only have 1 of any given spell active. But if I use that stratagem could I have Catalyst on 2 units?
No. You're still limited to only casting 1 of each power per turn, even if the first attempt failed. It's a very limited use stratagem because of this.
Question: Does the Power of the Hive Mind Stratagem allow me to cast the SAME power. If I have 2 HT both with Catalyst, to my understanding I can only have 1 of any given spell active. But if I use that stratagem could I have Catalyst on 2 units?
No. You're still limited to only casting 1 of each power per turn, even if the first attempt failed. It's a very limited use stratagem because of this.
Dang thats what I thought. Sometimes I go back and reread the codex, looking for things that I haven't used, and these new ideas come to mind. Oh well. So at best, it could allow me to cast say Catalyst, onslaught, and then a Smite. eh...
Question: Does the Power of the Hive Mind Stratagem allow me to cast the SAME power. If I have 2 HT both with Catalyst, to my understanding I can only have 1 of any given spell active. But if I use that stratagem could I have Catalyst on 2 units?
No. You're still limited to only casting 1 of each power per turn, even if the first attempt failed. It's a very limited use stratagem because of this.
Dang thats what I thought. Sometimes I go back and reread the codex, looking for things that I haven't used, and these new ideas come to mind. Oh well. So at best, it could allow me to cast say Catalyst, onslaught, and then a Smite. eh...
Yep, about the only use I can get is if somebody has One more wound left, I can toss off a smite for good measure.
Something I thought of in preparation for a local GT, per ITC the player who roles the highest choose the deployment type and then the opponent deploys first unit. If you were to win, what deployment types are more favorable to Tyranids?
As a general rule, assume I am running kraken and looking to get into CC as fast as possible, I would rank from Best to Worst Deployments based on distance from each other.
Best
Frontline Assault
Search and Destroy (this and vanguard are kind of a toss up)
Vanguard
Dawn of War
Spearhead
Hammer and Anvil
Dynas wrote: Something I thought of in preparation for a local GT, per ITC the player who roles the highest choose the deployment type and then the opponent deploys first unit. If you were to win, what deployment types are more favorable to Tyranids?
As a general rule, assume I am running kraken and looking to get into CC as fast as possible, I would rank from Best to Worst Deployments based on distance from each other.
Best
Frontline Assault
Search and Destroy (this and vanguard are kind of a toss up)
Vanguard
Dawn of War
Spearhead
Hammer and Anvil
What is everyone elses thought on this?
If you're using ITC champion missions then you don't get to choose the deployment. The player that wins the roll gets to 'randomly determine' the deployment type and then choose which side they want.
Dynas wrote: Something I thought of in preparation for a local GT, per ITC the player who roles the highest choose the deployment type and then the opponent deploys first unit. If you were to win, what deployment types are more favorable to Tyranids?
As a general rule, assume I am running kraken and looking to get into CC as fast as possible, I would rank from Best to Worst Deployments based on distance from each other.
Best
Frontline Assault
Search and Destroy (this and vanguard are kind of a toss up)
Vanguard
Dawn of War
Spearhead
Hammer and Anvil
What is everyone elses thought on this?
If you're using ITC champion missions then you don't get to choose the deployment. The player that wins the roll gets to 'randomly determine' the deployment type and then choose which side they want.
Ah misread where to put the verb "random." Nonetheless, I think this would be my preference for a random result.
You’re going to want to make the Kronos Battalion into Kraken, and definitely make some room for either venoms or a Malanthrope. Personally, in your list I would just drop the Biovores for a venomthrope unit. Makes your entire army -1 to hit
Just wondering though, how much freedom do I have with WYISWYG at a tournament level if I plan to travel and play? This seems kinda subjective I guess and I don't want to find out the hard way. I guess contacting TO's in advance with pics is the safe way? And what should I avoid doing with such conversions in general to avoid any potential conflicts when representing something like Devs w/ Brainleeches?
Also, with Carnifex models, the top carapace with the little holes in it - is that meant to be sporocysts? Am I locked into taking that upgrade if my Fex has this? None of mine do, but this is just a curiosity. Also, do I have to physically represent "enhanced senses" on the model to get a pass?
Does it look like a gun? Is your conversion consistent? Does it look moderately cool? If the answer is yes to all three, you’re all set. And I agree with you that the hive is better suited for Flyrants.
Yes that is meant to be a sporocyst. I model all my Fexes like that in case I want the upgrade. If I don’t, I just don’t pay the points. Again, consistency is the key. If you say, “carnifex A, which is identical in every way to carnifex B visually, has sporocysts, but carnifex B does not” you may run into some complaints. But I’ve seen something as simple as different basing or run colors to distinguish. It’s not great, but I’ve never seen anyone complain, nor have I ever complained myself, as long as they are visually distinguishable.
Same answer for the enhanced senses, but since they are basically a glorified set of antennae, it’s exceedingly easy to green stuff up some headgear for the enhanced senses you need. Would probably do that.
Just wondering though, how much freedom do I have with WYISWYG at a tournament level if I plan to travel and play? This seems kinda subjective I guess and I don't want to find out the hard way. I guess contacting TO's in advance with pics is the safe way? And what should I avoid doing with such conversions in general to avoid any potential conflicts when representing something like Devs w/ Brainleeches?
Also, with Carnifex models, the top carapace with the little holes in it - is that meant to be sporocysts? Am I locked into taking that upgrade if my Fex has this? None of mine do, but this is just a curiosity. Also, do I have to physically represent "enhanced senses" on the model to get a pass?
Does it look like a gun? Is your conversion consistent? Does it look moderately cool? If the answer is yes to all three, you’re all set. And I agree with you that the hive is better suited for Flyrants.
Dynas wrote:Shuppet. Yeah, its subjective. Most people are really just talking WYISWYG for the main armament. I actually posted this same question in the tourney thread. Best bet is to ask the TO. The good thing about nids though, most people don't know what any of our guns our unless they play them lol.
For TL devouerers there are TONS of conversions online. Just google it. I have converted Deathspitters with the pinecone bit off a devouerer, HVC with Pinecone.
Thanks guys. I'll check back in with my first run and you can let me know what you think.
How about this? I am thinking this now. Agree about needing the malanthrope. I want kronos for the anti psychic and HG buffs. Thoughts now?
Plan is to Use Metabolic Overdrive on Malanthrope. Use Opportunistic Advance and Onslaught on Hormies turn 1 to get across for T1 charge. One unit of GS gets Hive Commander by Swarmlord for T1 charge. The second unit follows up for turn 2. Keep the Swarmy and 2nd GS near malanthrope for shroud and follow up turn 2. The termies will clear screens. The Flyrants DS T1 or T2 depending on situation. The Warlord targets invul save units and helps with pyschic shutdown. Hive Guard hide in area terrain for cover save and do anti tank. Rippers grab objectives and DS in for secondaries.
Looking at the players, I will probably face Necrons, Drukhari, AM Soup, Chaos/Chaos Soup, Craftworld, and maybe Nids in mirror match. Those seem to be the main armies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Question on the Hyrda Relie the Slimmer Maggot Infestation which replaces The two death spitters. If I take 2 Deathspiiters twice and I take this relic what are my shots?
Would it 3+3+3+3 ( without relic for Deathspitters) and change to 6+6+6+6?
Yep I saw that one before the tourney, when they posted the lists for double check. It grabbed my attention. Jormangandr Gunfexen, with GSC Infantry! I'm glad it did well. If he went undefeated, how did he place?
Looks like he took 12th, and anouther Nid took 11th. Not to shabby!
I'd say, If you have the models, GSC infantry with a Jormagandr, or possably Kronos can do some work.
Dynas wrote: How about this? I am thinking this now. Agree about needing the malanthrope. I want kronos for the anti psychic and HG buffs. Thoughts now?
Plan is to Use Metabolic Overdrive on Malanthrope. Use Opportunistic Advance and Onslaught on Hormies turn 1 to get across for T1 charge. One unit of GS gets Hive Commander by Swarmlord for T1 charge. The second unit follows up for turn 2. Keep the Swarmy and 2nd GS near malanthrope for shroud and follow up turn 2. The termies will clear screens. The Flyrants DS T1 or T2 depending on situation. The Warlord targets invul save units and helps with pyschic shutdown. Hive Guard hide in area terrain for cover save and do anti tank. Rippers grab objectives and DS in for secondaries.
Looking at the players, I will probably face Necrons, Drukhari, AM Soup, Chaos/Chaos Soup, Craftworld, and maybe Nids in mirror match. Those seem to be the main armies.
Depending on matchup and deployment you may not be able to reliably get the turn one charge with two units, but between the Swarmlord and Opportunistic Advance it is almost impossible to prevent at least one unit of Genestealers from charging. Be mentally prepared to look at the board and change your plan from first turn charge with two units to first turn charge with one, second turn charge with two.
If they have good targets, don't be afraid to deep strike your Hive Tyrants turn one. The double devourer Tyrant in particular is useful for clearing chaff-if there is a reasonable chance to make a hole for Genestealers to charge through, bring him in.
The Malenthrope might be a better warlord than the Tyrant. He is the only one of your characters that can be protected. Fluff wise, it should be the Swarmlord, but he give up soooo many points in ITC events and is an alpha strike magnet. Speaking of ITC events, you look like you are in good shape on secondary's. Killing characters and big squads are obvious vs you, but not easy to actually get. Recon is easy for you-your forward aggressive big squads and deep strikers make it simple enough to spread out to all 4 quadrants.
Your Hive Guard are going to have issues with Synapse. You only have the two Tyrants to keep them in line, and the Tyrants want to be forward aggressive while the Hive Guard want to be standing still in the backfield. Being out of Synapse isn't the end of the world-hitting on 4's is still reasonable-but you may want to figure out a plan to help them out. A Neurothrope with Onslaught is the default solution (onslaught is so that when a tricksy elf player puts dark reapers out of line of sight, 42 inches away from the Hive Guard, you can pop out with an advance and make him cry), but your list is pretty well optimized and finding the points will be difficult. Maybe drop the adrenal glands from the Hormagants? You could try running the synapse extending relic and using the power-trade out the Balethorn's Horror and run the relic on the double devourer Tyrant.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Question on the Hyrda Relie the Slimmer Maggot Infestation which replaces The two death spitters. If I take 2 Deathspiiters twice and I take this relic what are my shots?
Would it 3+3+3+3 ( without relic for Deathspitters) and change to 6+6+6+6?
The relic replaces 1 pair (two arms), so it goes from 3+3+3+3 to 6+6+3+3. I think if you are going to take the relic, do it as relic plus two devourers. The weapon profiles are similar enough that you can just think of it as an upgrade to a double devourer Hydra Tyrant/?Fex?. Can Carnifexes take it?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sinful Hero wrote: Surprised no one’s talking about the “Poverty Tyranids” list that went undefeated at London-
The cheap Neophyte squads threw me for a loop. I’ve been finding out that Venom cannons are fun myself.
It is really interesting. I like the idea and the approach. Also, I hate the name that got attached to it. Somebody has to be able to come up with something more clever.
I would love to hear the logic for the way he structured the detachments. I'm guessing that he ran the Kraken patrol so he could get the relic on the Hive Tyrant and Jorgm. for the bonus save. I would be interested in trying this build with the 6+ FNP Hive Fleet instead of Jorgm. My first thought is that the 'fexes will get hit by enough high AP weapons that the FNP will be better, but that's match up dependent so IDK.
Yeah I was worried about synapse on nronos, but that norn crown relic only does IB. Thought about dropping the warlord Flyrant, takka dakkafex; or maybe Dev and atanbkrthorb, and neuro and devourers to get more shooting. If I make malanthrope the Warlord what would be the best trait?
It is it's, recon is definitely a secondary, normally choose old school, and then one killing unit X type as my 3rd.
Also considering taking an auction detachment of 1 Flyrant with the slimemer magot relic, devourses, endless Regen.
Dynas wrote: Yeah I was worried about synapse on nronos, but that norn crown relic only does IB. Thought about dropping the warlord Flyrant, takka dakkafex; or maybe Dev and atanbkrthorb, and neuro and devourers to get more shooting. If I make malanthrope the Warlord what would be the best trait?
It is it's, recon is definitely a secondary, normally choose old school, and then one killing unit X type as my 3rd.
Also considering taking an auction detachment of 1 Flyrant with the slimemer magot relic, devourses, endless Regen.
Warlord traits for us are pretty meh. If you drop a Flyrant, I think a Kronos Neurothrope, make him warlord, use the Kronos warlord trait to punish casters a bit more. If your willing to give up the Tyrant, you can have two in there, one for babysitting and one for being aggressive and smiting. Might leave you with a few points left over for more 'gaunts. But then again, I'm biased in favor of Neuros.
Another option is to do a Jorgmundr Battalion instead. Trade the Impaler Cannons for Shock Cannons, trade the Termagants for Raveners and more Rippers. Deep strike the Hive Guard using the Raveners, use the double shoot on them. It will pretty much one shot most vehicles. Shock Cannons are assault, so no penalty to hit when they come in, and the deep strike gets them into range. This puts the Hive Guard much closer to the Tyrants, so synapse isn't an issue, and Raveners are a decent unit. Fast, hits decently hard, cheap and useful gun. With how big your Kraken detachment is, you might be able to deep strike the entire Jorgmundr battalion, even with beta rules.
Dynas wrote: Yeah I was worried about synapse on nronos, but that norn crown relic only does IB. Thought about dropping the warlord Flyrant, takka dakkafex; or maybe Dev and atanbkrthorb, and neuro and devourers to get more shooting. If I make malanthrope the Warlord what would be the best trait?
It is it's, recon is definitely a secondary, normally choose old school, and then one killing unit X type as my 3rd.
Also considering taking an auction detachment of 1 Flyrant with the slimemer magot relic, devourses, endless Regen.
Just make both of your hive fleets kraken. Then you can make one of your hive tyrants the warlord, which will let you give it useful traits, plus the chameleonic skin relic is useful when you can actually be targeted. And most importantly, your Hive Guard can benefit from -1 to hit if BLOS terrain is light
pinecone77 wrote: Yep I saw that one before the tourney, when they posted the lists for double check. It grabbed my attention. Jormangandr Gunfexen, with GSC Infantry! I'm glad it did well. If he went undefeated, how did he place?
Looks like he took 12th, and anouther Nid took 11th. Not to shabby!
I'd say, If you have the models, GSC infantry with a Jormagandr, or possably Kronos can do some work.
Roberts list was very interesting. Saw it play on a table nearby to me and he seemed to be having a good time with it.
I'm the Nid guy who came 11th (actually 8th now the scores have all been sorted.) and took top tyranids. It was a pretty decent result for the Nids, especially considering some horror show match ups.
Went into the event knowing the match up I really didn't want was a nurgle daemons horde. Hit it twice, both times in the kill points missions. I also drew Joshua Death (#1 ITC player currently) round one. Managed to scrabble my way to a win in that round as well (only player to take any pts off him at all. He went 20-0 in his other 4 rounds)
Jorm over Kronos for a gunline is interesting, I thought about it myself, especially on bigger bugs likely to keep use of that cover save, seems like it would have a bigger overall impact than rerolls on 1s. It also means all units benefit from it from turn 1 even if they aren't in range, and when doing something like crowding around a Malanthrope and shooting, they probably won't all have cover elsewhere.
pinecone77 wrote: Yep I saw that one before the tourney, when they posted the lists for double check. It grabbed my attention. Jormangandr Gunfexen, with GSC Infantry! I'm glad it did well. If he went undefeated, how did he place?
Looks like he took 12th, and anouther Nid took 11th. Not to shabby!
I'd say, If you have the models, GSC infantry with a Jormagandr, or possably Kronos can do some work.
Roberts list was very interesting. Saw it play on a table nearby to me and he seemed to be having a good time with it.
I'm the Nid guy who came 11th (actually 8th now the scores have all been sorted.) and took top tyranids. It was a pretty decent result for the Nids, especially considering some horror show match ups.
Went into the event knowing the match up I really didn't want was a nurgle daemons horde. Hit it twice, both times in the kill points missions. I also drew Joshua Death (#1 ITC player currently) round one. Managed to scrabble my way to a win in that round as well (only player to take any pts off him at all. He went 20-0 in his other 4 rounds)
Dynas wrote: Yeah I was worried about synapse on nronos, but that norn crown relic only does IB. Thought about dropping the warlord Flyrant, takka dakkafex; or maybe Dev and atanbkrthorb, and neuro and devourers to get more shooting. If I make malanthrope the Warlord what would be the best trait?
It is it's, recon is definitely a secondary, normally choose old school, and then one killing unit X type as my 3rd.
Also considering taking an auction detachment of 1 Flyrant with the slimemer magot relic, devourses, endless Regen.
Just make both of your hive fleets kraken. Then you can make one of your hive tyrants the warlord, which will let you give it useful traits, plus the chameleonic skin relic is useful when you can actually be targeted. And most importantly, your Hive Guard can benefit from -1 to hit if BLOS terrain is light
Malanthrope is going to moving up to get shroud to melee army, and maybe pick off a unit in combat for the reroll buff.
Ok, if i dropped flyrant, added Neuro, Dakkafex with Balehtorn, added more gaunts. This actually gives me more firepower than taking the 2nd HT. Thoughts?
pinecone77 wrote: Yep I saw that one before the tourney, when they posted the lists for double check. It grabbed my attention. Jormangandr Gunfexen, with GSC Infantry! I'm glad it did well. If he went undefeated, how did he place?
Looks like he took 12th, and anouther Nid took 11th. Not to shabby!
I'd say, If you have the models, GSC infantry with a Jormagandr, or possably Kronos can do some work.
Roberts list was very interesting. Saw it play on a table nearby to me and he seemed to be having a good time with it.
I'm the Nid guy who came 11th (actually 8th now the scores have all been sorted.) and took top tyranids. It was a pretty decent result for the Nids, especially considering some horror show match ups.
Went into the event knowing the match up I really didn't want was a nurgle daemons horde. Hit it twice, both times in the kill points missions. I also drew Joshua Death (#1 ITC player currently) round one. Managed to scrabble my way to a win in that round as well (only player to take any pts off him at all. He went 20-0 in his other 4 rounds)
General premise was to take advantage of the masses of line of sight blocking with a dozen hive guard. Spores bubble out ambushers, termagants and rippers were screening/obsec and the stealers do their thing.
Neophytes were handy for objective grabbing turn one (deep striking outside my own zone) and the ambush stealers use the primus for super ambush.
Went reasonably well:
Game 1 vs Josh Death: He got first turn and ambushed with 40 electropriests and 6 dragoons. I counter punched with the stealers. Turned into a brawl with me plinking away powered up priests with neurothropes and blocking them with termagants etc. My stealers doing a similar job in his backfield. In the end I edged it with a little luck. 16-4 to me
Game 2 vs Nurgle daemon spam: faced 9 poxriders, 60 or so plaguebearers, all the characters and some nurglings. I went first and alpha struck with the kraken stealers and unloading everything. I killed 3 plaguebearers (who got back up on the icon) and one poxrider(who got back up on GUO bell.) The dice were not my friend. Didn't help it was the kill points mission and he had 8 to my 20 or so. I managed to grind away to a 9-11 loss.
Game 3 vs Grey knights: really nice guy playing in his first tournament. Sadly this was a total mismatch and he was tabled in pretty short order. We had some beers and chilled out. Was a relaxed third game and tons of fun. 20-0 to me.
Game 4 vs the new hotness imperial ambush: 30 or so death company, slamguinius, triple shield captain on bike, triple ravenguard aggressors. All the toys to smash me turn one. Naturally he wins roll off. I felt my opponent made some odd choices with his alpha, putting the big death company blob in reserves and choosing not to forlorn fury at me. As it was he rather bounced off and my beta cleared out all the aggressors, the death company on the board and bloodied him bad. He came back and killed a lot of my army, a real bloodbath. A recurring theme being sending a shield captain to tie up hive guard, only to be smited and psychic screamed off them so the hive guard could shoot. This one wound down to him not being able to stop the firebase and them shooting him off the board. He did have one heroic scout who just wouldn't die (was by himself for the last 3 turns) and he capped an objective with him. Making it a 17-3 to me instead of a 20-0. Another really fun opponent too.
Game 5: Kill points again? Best draw Nurgle daemon spam again....ffs. This time I go first and my alpha goes off big. I kill the bilepiper (hate that dude), 30 plaguebearers and some nurglings. In retaliation he kills my flyrant and most of the kraken stealer squad. hes pinned back at this stage though. The ambushing stealers come in, i'm blocking out the board with rippers and spore mines. The bloodletter bomb dies in reserve and although it costs me all the stealers I kill him down to a couple of obliterators, epidemius and a pair of princes. The game then becomes how much can the princes kill before its over. Eventually we end with 9 hive guard, the biovores and a neurothrope staring at epidemius who has no interest in walking into range. 20-0 to me.
Finished 11th (or 8th overall) and got best nids by I think 1point over Robert.
Some tough match ups and a lot of fun.
I won't comment on LGT as an event, god knows there's enough topics for that elsewhere. But purely for games it was good fun.
pinecone77 wrote: Yep I saw that one before the tourney, when they posted the lists for double check. It grabbed my attention. Jormangandr Gunfexen, with GSC Infantry! I'm glad it did well. If he went undefeated, how did he place?
Looks like he took 12th, and anouther Nid took 11th. Not to shabby!
I'd say, If you have the models, GSC infantry with a Jormagandr, or possably Kronos can do some work.
Roberts list was very interesting. Saw it play on a table nearby to me and he seemed to be having a good time with it.
I'm the Nid guy who came 11th (actually 8th now the scores have all been sorted.) and took top tyranids. It was a pretty decent result for the Nids, especially considering some horror show match ups.
Went into the event knowing the match up I really didn't want was a nurgle daemons horde. Hit it twice, both times in the kill points missions. I also drew Joshua Death (#1 ITC player currently) round one. Managed to scrabble my way to a win in that round as well (only player to take any pts off him at all. He went 20-0 in his other 4 rounds)
Congrats! I'm glad you'all had some good games, there seems to be a great deal of unhappiness about the way things were run.
Luck is a major part of this game, if you hit that hard counter, it can mess you up. If you have the time, I am sure I'd like to read a snop. of how your games went.
Nice writeup. Curious as to why you took Purestrain GS, over just regular GS. Did you find the GSC ambush tactic was worth the extra cost in points over regular Nid dex GS?
SHUPPET wrote: Jorm over Kronos for a gunline is interesting, I thought about it myself, especially on bigger bugs likely to keep use of that cover save, seems like it would have a bigger overall impact than rerolls on 1s. It also means all units benefit from it from turn 1 even if they aren't in range, and when doing something like crowding around a Malanthrope and shooting, they probably won't all have cover elsewhere.
I have a Jorm. gunline I'm working on getting painted up at the moment. I plan on taking it to a local event sometime in the next few weeks. I'll post a write up after I try it out.
Sinful Hero wrote: Surprised no one’s talking about the “Poverty Tyranids” list that went undefeated at London-
The cheap Neophyte squads threw me for a loop. I’ve been finding out that Venom cannons are fun myself.
Ok help me because I don't get how this list is so good.
3 units of 10 weaks humans and some carnifex ? How does it play ?
I'm not the person who came up with it and I have never played it, but I like talking about Tyranids so I'll take a stab at it.
The Neurothropes provide synapse and smite for mortal wounds. The Carnifexes walk forward shooting, as does the Hive Tyrant. The Rippers deepstrike to claim/contest objectives, and the Neophytes Cult Infiltrate to do the same. The Purestrains Cult Infiltrate, looking to charge something juicy. The Primus goes with the Purestrains and gives a bonus to the infiltrate roll, giving them a better chance to get the one they need. The Magus can smite, and has some useful spells.
Notice that the Carnifexes and the Hive Tyrant both are -1 to hit, protecting them from shooting. They put out 9d3 venom cannon shots a turn, plus 48 deathspitter shots once they hit 24" range. 4d6 and 18 deathspitter shots of that hits on 3's. It is a substantial amount of shooting on durable platforms, supported by the Purestrains to clear out units in CC. The Acidmaws and M. Rending Claws on the Tyrant give come C.C. punch to some of the monsters, so there is a lot of flexibility in the build.
I'm not the person who came up with it and I have never played it, but I like talking about Tyranids so I'll take a stab at it.
The Neurothropes provide synapse and smite for mortal wounds. The Carnifexes walk forward shooting, as does the Hive Tyrant. The Rippers deepstrike to claim/contest objectives, and the Neophytes Cult Infiltrate to do the same. The Purestrains Cult Infiltrate, looking to charge something juicy. The Primus goes with the Purestrains and gives a bonus to the infiltrate roll, giving them a better chance to get the one they need. The Magus can smite, and has some useful spells.
Notice that the Carnifexes and the Hive Tyrant both are -1 to hit, protecting them from shooting. They put out 9d3 venom cannon shots a turn, plus 48 deathspitter shots once they hit 24" range. 4d6 and 18 deathspitter shots of that hits on 3's. It is a substantial amount of shooting on durable platforms, supported by the Purestrains to clear out units in CC. The Acidmaws and M. Rending Claws on the Tyrant give come C.C. punch to some of the monsters, so there is a lot of flexibility in the build.
In addition the Carnifexes have a 2+ armor save (cover) as long they dont charge, advance or go melee.
One thing that will help our beta strike is that people who were lazy about screens will be even lazier now. 
I have 3 of the finecast ones from 5th edition and built 3 of the new (very pretty) plastic ones when their kit came out.
I completely missed that. For whatever reason I've been operating under the assumption that they started at 
I'm glad you'all had some good games, there seems to be a great deal of unhappiness about the way things were run. 