NamelessBard wrote:

 Nem wrote:

If you only care to play HT and Tervies, your screwed. For everyone else, its a change, which looks pretty good overall.

Actually, they are still the best (or close to) units in the codex.

As individuals - maybe, but with new units filling in the 'gaps', as support, its just better. I'd rather use a mix of units now rather than just cramming as many of those in, we have actual options to deal with some situations we were lacking in previously (albeit because many people refused to take the over priced Tyrannofex). Like anything above ST6. We have lots of STR 6, but that never helped against AV13. Looking at you Necrons.

I have been sat across from Necron players in some situations where the only damn thing that can hurt them is Zoans lance, and then I've got to pass tests, and hit, then roll out to Pen... I now have other units which are multi purpose and can engage in this. I'm freaking jumping for joy, worst thing about the current codex for me = fixed. Woo.

 Carnage43 wrote:

You don't....math...do you?

T5 W4 2+Sv, 3++ EW chapter master, with lets say a thunder hammer (because the double relic thing still isn't hammered out)
T6 W4 3+SV, No++ No EW Tyrant,

Do you?

230 - 165 =/= 0

That's what smash is for.

New List: 1500 pts

----- HQ -------------------------------
1. Hive Tyrant (230pts)
- 2x Devourer with Brainleech Worms - Twin-linked, 1x Wings

----- Troop ----------------------------
1. Termagant Brood (180pts)
- 30x Termagant
- 15x Devourer
2. Termagant Brood (120pts)
- 30x Termagant
3. Tervigon (195pts)
4. Tervigon (195pts)

----- Elite ----------------------------
1. Venomthrope Brood (90pts)
- 2x Venomthrope
2. Venomthrope Brood (90pts)
- 2x Venomthrope
3. Zoanthrope (100pts)
- 2x Zoanthrope

----- Fast Attack ----------------------

----- Heavy Support --------------------
1. Carnifex Brood (300pts)
- 2x Carnifex
- 4x Devourer with Brainleech Worms - Twin-linked

6 Psychic power rolls plus 2 Warp Blasts
36 TL Devourer shots
24 T6 Wounds

New List: 1995 pts

----- HQ -------------------------------
1. Hive Tyrant (230pts)
- 2x Devourer with Brainleech Worms - Twin-linked, 1x Wings


----- Troop ----------------------------
1. Termagant Brood (180pts)
- 30x Termagant
- 15x Devourer
2. Termagant Brood (120pts)
- 30x Termagant
3. Tervigon (195pts)
4. Tervigon (195pts)

----- Elite ----------------------------
1. Venomthrope Brood (90pts)
- 2x Venomthrope
2. Venomthrope Brood (90pts)
- 2x Venomthrope
3. Zoanthrope (100pts)
- 2x Zoanthrope

----- Fast Attack ----------------------

----- Heavy Support --------------------
1. Exocrine (170pts)
2. Tyrannofex (175pts)
3. Carnifex Brood (450pts)
- 3x Carnifex
- 6x Devourer with Brainleech Worms - Twin-linked

.6 Psychic power rolls plus 2 Warp Blasts
48 TL Devourer shots
40 T6 Wounds

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
ork warbosses used to be bs 4 too... now they are bs2...

And Orks are terrible. I don't see what point you're making here.

the point being, GW says nids are a CC army, CC armies shouldnt allso be excellent at shooting.

why does a CC army have some of the best shots inthe galaxy in it? since BS is much mor static then WS (ie anything over 5 is basically irrelevant) bs4 is a big deal. Only stuff that is a REALLY good shot is bs4, and if even the CC themed armies have bs4, then there isnt much +1 room for shooty armies, let alone shooty characters.

Im not saying its "fair" or good... I am saying why they did what they did seems to be a themematic one, akin to what they have done with orks in the past.

not saying it makes sense... gw has a str 9 ap3 template in the IG codex for 125 pts, and the same thing but better for 75 pts in the FW book... things just do not add up if you do the math sometimes.




as for the buffs to the bugs.. there are FAR more then some of the nay saysers are saying... the lance rule on zoans, on a str 10 ap1 weapon, with the ability to have multiple shots?

hello, pen on a 2+, blow up on a 4+...

20% points reduction cross the board is HUGE... cheap as feth carnifexes, you can still get the 2+ saves (althought only in assault now it seems?) but to be honest, the things that are taking you out at a 3+ with no ++ are still going to take out out on a 2+ with no ++...

not having a ++ is stupid, but welcome to the world of guard, orks, tau/everyone who isnt marines or necrons/DE/eldar

thats why you have tyrant guard, and lots and lots and LOTS of big t6 multiwound things with 3+ saves... sure they can take some of it down, but #'s are supposed the be the nids thing, horde is supposed to be a play style, GW is obviously encouraging this. good or bad.

faster guants, they are now basically the fastests troops CC, that fleets +3inch run is huge....

again the pts reduction is huge,

 The Shadow wrote:
The exocrine, if I'm recalling the rumours correctly, has an Assault 6 S7 AP2 gun, which can also be fired as a large blast.

Nid players would have killed for some good, long range anti-MEQ/TEQ like that with the other book.

24" is "long range"?

24'' and BS3 is apparently good, long-range shooting, yes.

not everything has to be broken like Tau/Eldar guy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111!!

 Therion wrote:

 Thranriel wrote:
So Quad gun vs the Crone or Harpy anyone?

If they're T5 4+ you can just forget all about them. Every skyfire autocannon, high-yield missile pod, heavy burst cannon etc. will mow them down, and it's not like they have an easy time vs. the standard tesla spam either.

One of the flyers better have SV3+ like the first rumours indicated.

The only good part about this will be that I will not have to buy them at all. It will make my wife and my wallet very happy......I'll be a very sad panda, though....

Fragile wrote:

 Imposter101 wrote:


Then lets go through the good stuff!

Fun optimism away!

Some stuff got cheaper
Hive Tyrant's can kind of shoot now (at the cost of melee and survivability options for a primarily melee based unit)
Venomphropes got better

And....that's it.

This truly counters all the massive negatives of this codex.

HTs could always shoot, so you can scratch that.

"Some stuff got cheaper"

Virtually everything got cheaper. Actually, what didn't? Hive Guard and Tervigons, surprise. But everything else is cheaper or better now than before, literally everything. Not all will be worth it (Warriors, stealers) but I can think of many units that are now VERY worth their cost.

HQ: Deathleaper, Tervigon, Tyrant
Elites: Hive Guard, Venomthropes, haruspex
Troops: Gants, Hormagants, Tervigon
Fast Attack: Gargoyles, Crone,
Heavy Support: Carnifex, Mawloc, Biovore, Exocrine, Tyrannofex (these are ALL freaking amazing. I'm stumped for choices. Heavy is the new Elite)

So yeah, no stealers, no warriors. Deal with it and stop whining. This is going to be really good. This is an army that is pouring STRAIGHT up the field at you and is tough as heck to gun down in time, and there will be shooting while they do it!

 jifel wrote:
Deal with it and stop whining.

Here's an idea: Stop dismissing any criticism as "whining".

Or would you rather we dismiss optimism as "mindless white knighting"?

Your choice.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Or would you rather we dismiss optimism as "mindless white knighting"?

Wouldn't be the first time.

In other news, I find the cost idea pretty important. Will the units be cheap enough that minor nerfs here and there be made up for? I.e. Will Quantity become a Quality of its own?

@jifel

Thankyou for your explanation.

 Nem wrote:

NamelessBard wrote:

 Nem wrote:

If you only care to play HT and Tervies, your screwed. For everyone else, its a change, which looks pretty good overall.

Actually, they are still the best (or close to) units in the codex.

As individuals - maybe, but with new units filling in the 'gaps', as support, its just better. I'd rather use a mix of units now rather than just cramming as many of those in, we have actual options to deal with some situations we were lacking in previously (albeit because many people refused to take the over priced Tyrannofex). Like anything above ST6. We have lots of STR 6, but that never helped against AV13. Looking at you Necrons.

I have been sat across from Necron players in some situations where the only damn thing that can hurt them is Zoans lance, and then I've got to pass tests, and hit, then roll out to Pen... I now have other units which are multi purpose and can engage in this. I'm freaking jumping for joy, worst thing about the current codex for me = fixed. Woo.

Ok, I am admittedly a cynic and a pessimist. But I don't see anything filling in almost any gaps here.

The role filled by Biomancy especially has been just straight gutted with nothing to replace it except crossing your fingers and hoping 10-20% more target saturation thanks to point drops is going to help your big creatures survive.

Spores are gone with nothing to replace their role or otherwise fill that gap.

The Harpy is identical (i.e. crap) with the Crone now providing at least some anti-air, if it survives long enough to do so, so I guess that counts as AA sorted to you?

Haruspex does not fill any missing role at all.

Exocrine gives some medium-range AP2 shooting, which is nice.

What exactly are you pointing at that's going to help with AV13? Even Zoanthropes are slightly worse at anti-tank with the nerf to AP on Warp Blast.

Why are you "rawr"-ing about no longer being reliant on Biomancy? Nothing has actually replaced it, you're just barred from using it. There's no point of pride here, unless you're just proud of being forced to use weaker, less useful powers, and no telling the army isn't still "reliant" on it the same way a person with their liver removed is reliant on their missing liver.

I dunno, I just see absolutely nothing to be optimistic about. Maybe a list of actual, meaningful buffs or strong points to counter the many, many lists of nerfs and glossed-over units that weren't fixed?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 jifel wrote:
Deal with it and stop whining.

Here's an idea: Stop dismissing any criticism as "whining".

Or would you rather we dismiss optimism as "mindless white knighting"?

Your choice.

Well, I'd rather not have "mindless" in there, white knighting is ok though. But this does happen every time. The codex never does what we want or expect, but it ends up doing other things better. I'm mad that I can't use Warriors or Stealers effectively, and that I had 15 models from my army straight out removed. But, this won't be the "awful" book many people say it will. Their criticism is valid, heck I whined a bit too. But there's more to the book than just "what we wanted to be good won't be."

If your going to compare apples with pears don't be confused to why pears look like pears and not apples.

Here's another difference between Tau and Tyranids, Tau run away more and insta kill themselves on the table edge. Tyranids looking very OP now?

If you want to compare, compare Tyranids or at least something like Tyranids with Tyranids. Is that gun good? Compared to everything we currently have, it is very good. Rules - as an army - make up the picture. Not one or two bits of it, synergy people.

Tyranids do not want or need the fire power of Tau, they should not have the fire power of Tau. 24 is a good range for Tyranids. AP2 is very good for Tyranids range weapons. HIgh assault means were not just going to miss every shot (looking at you Mr Hive Guard). Fills a gap, does it more reliably than the current go to unit.

Everything got cheaper and people are saying this is a good thing? While technically it IS a good thing think about why they would possibly do something like that...

Ohh to make sure that now everyone needs to own 100+ gaunts and 10+ MCs plus what ever other medium sized beasties you are using in a 1850 list. It is insane. Basically I am going to have to spend a gak ton of money just to bring my army back up to the point limit I used to play at.

On top of that almost all existing units got worse but the new ones are an absolute must have in almost every case. Exocrine is amazing, not Wave Serpent amazing but still good. Crone is fantastic. I mean, I know we all know the joke about how GW pushes new kits by making those kits must haves for the army but this is a new step up. The new kits are must haves and everything old is junk.

Just...after reading this information about units, the laughably bad artifacts, the lack of biomancy...everything about this sucks. So what if my crappy units got cheaper, they are still crappy. Can I still win with the new codex? Probably. Can it be a contender with Tau/Eldar/Deamons? No chance. Can I play a CC based army with this codex? Yeah but it is going to suck. Can I play a shooty as hell army? Yeah and it will be okay at best.

Even if the crunch is okay for this new codex, I feel like they are taking nids far and away from the reason I started playing them in the first place and have shown once again that they have no idea how to make the bugs work. I would argue that the 5th edition Tyranids codex was the worst 5th codex and it looks like we are just getting a reprint with the 6th fixings. It is bs and I probably wont buy it, this may very well be my out to 40k. Not just this, I have so many problems with 40k from Escalation, to Tau/Eldar power list, to pricing...this is just the final straw. I have 6 armies but Tyranids have always been my absolute favorite and this new codex is shaping up to be crap and I am just so tired of GW and their poor excuse for game support.

Reminder that Robin Cruddace has a doctorate in Physics but instead chose to pursue a career in terrible game design.

 pretre wrote:
In other news, I find the cost idea pretty important. Will the units be cheap enough that minor nerfs here and there be made up for? I.e. Will Quantity become a Quality of its own?

That's the Ork way of doing things. Tyranids are a case of "Anything you can do I can (eventually) do better", and not "Anything you can do I can do cheaper and in a less effective manner".

Mawlocs are going to destroy tau now. No hiding behind that defense line anymore.

Interesting seeing it all in Spanish. A lot of units seem to have taken a bit of a hit, but on the other hand almost everything is 10-20% cheaper. This could be the codex that encourages enormous amounts of numbers spam (and what could be more Tyranid than that?).

I am probably going to end up running a Carnifex trio with Crushing Claws, Spine Banks and Adrenal Glands (450 points?) and either a walking Tyrant or Swarmlord with three Crushing Claws Tyrant Guard. The Swarmlord is probably safer (but more expensive of course) and has a better chance of getting Catalyst. Catalyst on his own unit and the Carnifex trio will be excellent.

Support with a Tervigon or two and thirty-sixty Termagants for objective control (and a couple more chances at Catalyst), and then add in some ranged power for the necessary anti-air/skimmer. This might take the form of a Winged Tyrant, or perhaps a Crone or two depending on how things work out with them. Hive Guard are still tempting, too.

I'm also now very, very tempted by my brood of thirty Toxic Hormagaunts, which are now really, really fast. Again, they will work best with Catalyst support, but then what doesn't?

I also want to give my Lictor trio a spin again, and they've never been cheaper so now is as good a time as any.



On the whole there is a lot of shaking up to consider, some answers to current "questions" and a few nasty surprises. Not making a proper judgement until I see the whole book, but I really do think that this time Tyranids are going to be less about psychic power spam and more about flooding the game with as many units as possible and just wearing the enemy down.

 Nem wrote:
If your going to compare apples with pears don't be confused to why pears look like pears and not apples.

Here's another difference between Tau and Tyranids, Tau run away more and insta kill themselves on the table edge. Tyranids looking very OP now?

If you want to compare, compare Tyranids or at least something like Tyranids with Tyranids. Is that gun good? Compared to everything we currently have, it is very good. Rules - as an army - make up the picture. Not one or two bits of it, synergy people.

Tyranids do not want or need the fire power of Tau, they should not have the fire power of Tau. 24 is a good range for Tyranids. AP2 is very good for Tyranids range weapons. HIgh assault means were not just going to miss every shot (looking at you Mr Hive Guard). Fills a gap, does it more reliably than the current go to unit.

Considering that Tau and Eldar make up about 50% of the competitive meta by themselves, you're either a fool or a beer and pretzels player (and there's nothing wrong with that) to not compare Tyranids to them.

There is a difference between design, I.E., how the army plays, and effectiveness, how much of an advantage or disadvantage you have against another persons army by choosing to play your army. Tyranids might have a different design in how they play from Tau, Eldar, Daemons, Space Marines whatever. But all armies should have the exact same effectiveness, to the best of their abilities. All the data we have seen thus far, from rumors to outright scans from the codex, point to Tyranids not having the tools necessary to be as effective as other armies in the meta. That is a problem, and it's worth being unhappy about. I don't think people appreciate that the "doom and gloom guys" who are complaining about the army have probably put it in just as much time, money and effort into the army as you. It's entirely reasonable for someone whose spent hundreds to thousands of dollars and hours on an army to expect it to be able to compete, and it's also entirely reasonable to expect them to be unhappy if the data that they are given (rumors and codex scans) don't indicate that to be the case.

And for the record, anyone who says "I remember the rumors for Tau and Eldar, everyone expected them to suck" is either outright lying to try to prove a point, or just has a poor memory. By the time we got to this point of their releases, there was MASSIVE hype for Tau and Eldar. The confirmed rules and point costs for those two armies was leaving the majority of the community with a very positive impression. The only criticism I recall is the disappointment with their flyers (which, low and behold, turned out to be complete ass), and broadsides getting nerfed (which, low and behold, did in fact happen).

Dumb question:

Are Tervigons taken as Troops scoring?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Dumb question:

Are Tervigons taken as Troops scoring?

For the time being... I'm still expecting 7E to make MC's non-scoring like vehicles.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Nem wrote:
If your going to compare apples with pears don't be confused to why pears look like pears and not apples.

Here's another difference between Tau and Tyranids, Tau run away more and insta kill themselves on the table edge. Tyranids looking very OP now?

If you want to compare, compare Tyranids or at least something like Tyranids with Tyranids. Is that gun good? Compared to everything we currently have, it is very good. Rules - as an army - make up the picture. Not one or two bits of it, synergy people.

Tyranids do not want or need the fire power of Tau, they should not have the fire power of Tau. 24 is a good range for Tyranids. AP2 is very good for Tyranids range weapons. HIgh assault means were not just going to miss every shot (looking at you Mr Hive Guard). Fills a gap, does it more reliably than the current go to unit.

Considering that Tau and Eldar make up about 50% of the competitive meta by themselves, you're either a fool or a beer and pretzels player (and there's nothing wrong with that) to not compare Tyranids to them.

There is a difference between design, I.E., how the army plays, and effectiveness, how much of an advantage or disadvantage you have against another persons army by choosing to play your army. Tyranids might have a different design in how they play from Tau, Eldar, Daemons, Space Marines whatever. But all armies should have the exact same effectiveness, to the best of their abilities. All the data we have seen thus far, from rumors to outright scans from the codex, point to Tyranids not having the tools necessary to be as effective as other armies in the meta. That is a problem, and it's worth being unhappy about. I don't think people remember that the "doom and gloom guys" who are complaining about the army have probably put it in just as much time, money and effort into the army as you. It's entirely reasonable for someone whose spent hundreds to thousands of dollars and hours on an army to expect it to be able to compete, and it's also entirely reasonable to expect them to be unhappy if the data that they are given (rumors and codex scans) don't indicate that to be the case.

And for the record, anyone who says "I remember the rumors for Tau and Eldar, everyone expected them to suck" is either outright lying to try to prove a point, or just has a poor memory. By the time we got to this point of their releases, there was MASSIVE hype for Tau and Eldar. The confirmed rules and point costs for those two armies was leaving the majority of the community with a very positive impression. The only criticism I recall is the disappointment with their flyers (which, low and behold, turned out to be complete ass), and broadsides getting nerfed (which, low and behold, did in fact happen).

I agree that you should compare them to the tournament winners right away to establish whether you have any chance of competing, but I've yet to see a single reply discussing that fact. All that people are saying is that stuff could be stronger and that many individual rules are bad (and I agree). So have you established the fact that a 1750p or 1850p list cannot be constructed from the codex that could compete with Triptide/Quadtide/Ovesastar/Jetseers/Serpent Spam/Screamerstar/Cron Air Wraiths/Heldrakes? I don't think you or anyone else has even got started on that project yet. My first hunch is that there's a few lists there that pose a lot of problems, but not all of them.

And for the record, anyone who says "I remember the rumors for Tau and Eldar, everyone expected them to suck" is either outright lying to try to prove a point, or just has a poor memory. By the time we got to this point of their releases, there was MASSIVE hype for Tau and Eldar.

This part of your post is outright bullgak. I don't know how far Dakka search goes, but if it goes back to the Tau release you'll find me and some other guy saying every single competitive Tau army will have 3 Riptides and 10 or more people arguing against that fact, calling Riptides overpriced if not outright bad for what they can do. Tau had a very mixed response. Some believed it to be strong, but a lot of people declared that they'll quit (just like Nid people do now) since it didn't live up to their expectations. As far as Eldar are concerned I personally despised that codex from the moment the rumours started trickling since it solidified the fact Phil Kelly is a relic of the past and shouldn't be allowed to games design anything. That codex is just so full of fail only the CSM are worse. Take away Serpent Shield and allies and it's one of the worst books in the game, but most importantly it failed to improve many units that have sucked for a decade now, if not longer.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Dumb question:

Are Tervigons taken as Troops scoring?

With a unit of 30 termagants.

To my eyes, all data points to it not being significantly better or worse than their current dex.

skarsol wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

 Imposter101 wrote:
So lets go through this wonderful release;

* No 2+ armour saves for Hive Tyrants except an artefact which can only be used every other turn
* Some units no longer in synapse eat themselves, meaning suicide for low leadership units
* The loss of Ymargl Genestealers, Spores, the Doom of Malantai, the parasite of mortex,
* The Pyrovore is still garbage
* A bunch of meh artefacts
* The loss of Biomancy

And lets sum this up, the codex has gotten even worse with this recent edition. This is the kind of thing that makes me think GW's writers despise it's fanbase. I mean, the Tyranids do now have the honour of being the army which has got terrible updates two times in a row.

The exocrine, if I'm recalling the rumours correctly, has an Assault 6 S7 AP2 gun, which can also be fired as a large blast.

Nid players would have killed for some good, long range anti-MEQ/TEQ like that with the other book.

BS3 (+1 if it doesn't move or assault that turn) and 24". Not exactly "long".

That's 24" longer than the AP3 or better guns in the previous codex.

 Therion wrote:
most importantly it failed to improve many units that have sucked for a decade now

 Therion wrote:
most importantly it failed to improve many units that have sucked for a decade now

 Therion wrote:
most importantly it failed to improve many units that have sucked for a decade now

This consistent pattern in virtually every codex GW releases (at least, the ones that aren't attempting massive overhauls of the army like Daemons or Dark Eldar) demonstrates to me that GW either does not know how to, or does not really care to, write rules for their own game.

My first impression is that the power of the Codex has been spread out more equitably between the FOC slots. Before, it was mostly HQ and Troops doing the heavy lifting. Now, it seems we have many more options throughout the FOC to help with the workload of devouring fleshy meatbags.

 gorgon wrote:
To the studio, other armies are proper protagonists and antagonists that get to have proper 'heroes' and 'villains'. Meanwhile Tyranids are just an animalistic adversary to be overcome. It's heroic and cinematic to have some level 1 librarian taking down a Trygon or Tervigon with a single swing of his force weapon, so that's acceptable. It's also heroic and cinematic for some SM officer suffer enormous blows from a Carnifex that should have pulverized him and keep fighting, so that's acceptable also. The EW rule is an expression of cinematic heroics/villainry.

I strongly suspect that you are correct. Even if this isn't The Studio's intent it has very much become the mind set of many Marine players.

If Tyranids were a third-party faction controlled by a GM or a random set of 'action cards' or some kind of flow chart that would be fine. But they aren't. I'm a player so why don't my monsters get to be heroic? Or are GW only interested in the kind of mainstream action movie cinematic experience?

How can anybody deal so poorly with iconic units such as 'stealers and Tyranid Warriors?

It frustrates me that GW can on the other hand produce a game like Space Hulk were both players can win or lose, where the two sides are both so different yet balanced...all while on the edge of their seats. The Marine player in SH knows he could lose. He knows that each marine can kill a dozen or more 'stealers but be torn apart at a stroke if he screws up or bad luck befalls him.

Using my Very flawed knowledge of Spanish, here's my idea of a 2000 point list... it ain't bad folks, it ain't bad.

Hive Tyrant: (Wings, 2x TL Devourers) 230
Hive Tyrant: (Wings, 2x TL Devourers) 230
Tyranid Prime (maw claws of Thyrax) 135
30 gants 120
30 gants 120
Tervigon (Toxin, Adrenal, Crushing Claws) 235
Tervigon (Toxin, Adrenal, Crushing Claws) 235
3 Venomthropes 135
Crone 155
Tyrannofex (Rupture Cannon)205
25 Gargoyles (Adrenal Glands) 200

A lot of wounds and models being set down there. Tactics? Venomthropes/prime in the center, and every MC and one gant each is within 6" until I'm on their doorstep. Lovely stuff! Look at that. Just kill the pathfinders early and even Tau have trouble dealing with this lot. With Venoms, you should have a 3++ cover, like always. I threw the crone in there, but I'm not sure if its good, it'll be close. The missiles and VS rock, but it's not tough. But, I think if its in Area terrain and within 6" of the Venomstar it'll do just fine with that cover. (The best part is, I'm two models away from having this list, once I assemble some magnetized Crushing Claws. Then it's one Venom and a Crone for me! Compare it to the old 2000 point lists, it looks fun and dangerous with more stuff on the board.

NamelessBard wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Dumb question:

Are Tervigons taken as Troops scoring?

With a unit of 30 termagants.

Which is the issue.

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

 Therion wrote:
most importantly it failed to improve many units that have sucked for a decade now

 Therion wrote:
most importantly it failed to improve many units that have sucked for a decade now

 Therion wrote:
most importantly it failed to improve many units that have sucked for a decade now

This consistent pattern in virtually every codex GW releases (at least, the ones that aren't attempting massive overhauls of the army like Daemons or Dark Eldar) demonstrates to me that GW either does not know how to, or does not really care to, write rules for their own game.

and if they HAD buffed the last model that no one bought,

you would complain they only buff models to sell models....

*ducks behind couch*

3hq's

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

 Therion wrote:
most importantly it failed to improve many units that have sucked for a decade now

 Therion wrote:
most importantly it failed to improve many units that have sucked for a decade now

 Therion wrote:
most importantly it failed to improve many units that have sucked for a decade now

This consistent pattern in virtually every codex GW releases (at least, the ones that aren't attempting massive overhauls of the army like Daemons or Dark Eldar) demonstrates to me that GW either does not know how to, or does not really care to, write rules for their own game.

Right on the money. Because the 'hidden agenda' arguments don't seem to hold any water since sometimes new units are good and sometimes outright terrible, the most logical conclusion is that some units being good and some useless isn't premeditated in any way. You can pretty much roll a D6 to determine how many 'high performance' units a new codex will have. Everything else will be junk.

 Souleater wrote:
It frustrates me that GW can on the other hand produce a game like Space Hulk were both players can win or lose, where the two sides are both so different yet balanced...all while on the edge of their seats. The Marine player in SH knows he could lose. He knows that each marine can kill a dozen or more 'stealers but be torn apart at a stroke if he screws up or bad luck befalls him.

Space Hulk was written nearly 30 years ago, and then resurrected for a limited release with the new box set.

GW's follow-up to that was a newly created limited release board game called Dreadfleet, which has abysmal game play and was widely panned as garbage.

GW simply does not know how to write games anymore. The guys who did are long gone.

Can someone sell the Crone to me? I see people saying it's good and including it in potential lists, but I'm not seeing it. Just a bunch of S5, which doesn't really cut it for the points cost and survivability. Although it has Rage, I think. Am I translating that correctly? Seems odd, but I guess it helps. Fexes have it too.

Otherwise, I'm sticking with my Flyrant's S6/T6/3+ goodness.

But yeah, Fexes have Rage. That's good...

 Souleater wrote:
How can anybody deal so poorly with iconic units such as 'stealers and Tyranid Warriors?

As I said a few pages back, this is the part that frustrates me the most. The little things that don’t change or get worse seemingly against all logic and sense and history. I mean within a few seconds of seeing the entries in the preview we knew that Warriors and ‘Stealers were hosed. Anyone who understands how the game works can see units that just don’t work as intended (or even ones that don’t work, period). And then you factor in that some of these units (Lictors, anyone?) have languished for so long without a decent set of rules to make them worth taking.

I always say “Never attribute to malice that which can be attributed to incompetence”, but I don’t think it’s just general incompetence either. It’s either complete apathy or just a complete lack of understanding of the basic nature of the game they’re writing for. I’ll never claim to be the greatest rules writer in the world, but come on people, I know I could do better than some of these. Tyranids have had units that simply don’t work for over a decade, and once again they still suck (or somehow got worse, against all logic); how can a studio that we have to presume understands their own game be so consistent in getting it wrong?

 Therion wrote:
You can pretty much roll a D6 to determine how many 'high performance' units a new codex will have. Everything else will be junk.

Somewhat ironic considering "rolling a D6 to see how good your unit is for this turn/game" is one of their favorite methods for sucking the usefulness out of a unit.

 The Shadow wrote:

NamelessBard wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Dumb question:

Are Tervigons taken as Troops scoring?

With a unit of 30 termagants.

Which is the issue.

Really thats not. Even with the Terv going up and Gants getting cheaper, its still a worthwhile combo and something I would have given money to GW for (buying more Gants).

 The Shadow wrote:
Can someone sell the Crone to me? I see people saying it's good and including it in potential lists, but I'm not seeing it. Just a bunch of S5, which doesn't really cut it for the points cost and survivability. Although it has Rage, I think. Am I translating that correctly? Seems odd, but I guess it helps. Fexes have it too.

Otherwise, I'm sticking with my Flyrant's S6/T6/3+ goodness.

It's really not that great. If the thing couldn't be grounded. If the thing could target flyers with it's main gun. If vector striking didn't require being in the open most of the time. If it could fire 4 weapons like a flyer. If the cannon had torrent. If no one took quad guns. Then maybe it would be good (not to mention T6 Av 4+). The missiles are pretty good, but not at the expense of everything else.

Might want to rethink Crushing Claws on tervigons. They are kinda pointless as they ar AP2 armourbane unwieldy. Better off just using Smash.

@CalgarsPimpHand: Please re-read the original post by Gorgon that I was responding to.

I'm not talking game balance per se but the gut feeling I and Gorgon seem to share about GW's view of the Tyranid's place in the 'cinematic experience'.

You may be well about their rules writing, of course.

Bodiless wrote:
Interesting to note that devgaunts kept the same stat line but the cost dropped by 2....

So, an Ork hoard works with 30 unit squads of shoota boyzs covered by a KFF.

Doesn't it seem like Tyranids running 30 unit squads of devgaunts covered by venomthropes is even more viable?

Shoota Boy:
BS 2, Range 18", S 4, AP 6, Assault 2, Cost: 6

Devgaunts:
BS 3, Range 18", S 4, AP -, Assault 3, Cost: 8

Venomthrope gives 2+ to existing cover saves, so instead of being limited to the Boyz 5+ save, if you bubblewrap the front (Carnifexes or Tyranofexes), you should be able to get 3+ saves, right?

Is seems like a pretty viable strategy to me. I know ork hoard isn't ideal, but Tyranid hoard looks much tougher.

They still may not have high range, or AP 2, but if they get within 18" they will throw dice at you until you die.

 The Shadow wrote:

But yeah, Fexes have Rage. That's good...

I think coraje means fearless, not rage.

 Gloomfang wrote:
Might want to rethink Crushing Claws on tervigons. They are kinda pointless as they ar AP2 armourbane unwieldy. Better off just using Smash.

I'm glad I gave ScyTals to the two Tervigons I built a couple of weeks ago... not that ScyTals do anything now... Bloody hell...

H.B.M.C wrote:Tyranids have had units that simply don’t work for over a decade, and once again they still suck; how can a studio that we have to presume understands their own game be so consistent in getting it wrong?

I'd side with your apathy presumption. I doubt they take the task of making every unit useful and interesting very seriously. Otherwise garbage such as the new Warriors or Stealers or Howling Banshees etc. wouldn't exist. I think one of my friends (who now works as a games designer / 3d artist in the video game industry) told me long ago that it's a shame that the people at the GW studio don't realise how much potential they have. They have a fan- and customer base that has proven to be willing to take it from behind and suffer through all sorts of crap with basically zero communication and encouragement from the HQ, but they just can't deliver a competitive product and take their company to the next level.

 jifel wrote:
Using my Very flawed knowledge of Spanish, here's my idea of a 2000 point list... it ain't bad folks, it ain't bad.

Hive Tyrant: (Wings, 2x TL Devourers) 230
Hive Tyrant: (Wings, 2x TL Devourers) 230
Tyranid Prime (maw claws of Thyrax) 135
30 gants 120
30 gants 120
Tervigon (Toxin, Adrenal, Crushing Claws) 235
Tervigon (Toxin, Adrenal, Crushing Claws) 235
3 Venomthropes 135
Crone 155
Tyrannofex (Rupture Cannon)205
25 Gargoyles (Adrenal Glands) 200

It looks pretty on paper

A lot of wounds and models being set down there. Tactics? Venomthropes/prime in the center, and every MC and one gant each is within 6" until I'm on their doorstep. Lovely stuff! Look at that. Just kill the pathfinders early and even Tau have trouble dealing with this lot.

You have accepted an initial flaw in your army, which is a reliance on cover. So how to you kill the pathfinders early? You have 1 Rupture cannon to reach out to 36" with BS3, thats 1 dead Pathfinder. Assuming its not in cover and nightfighting..etc..

2k points.. Double FOC. Whats your plan to deal with Riptides with HBCs and IA here ? Could be 6 of them. Your FMCs can zip across the board but you will leave your support behind. 2k points, its easy to assume a Skyray might be there.. Pick a FMC and kiss it goodbye. With Velocity Trackers and no support your FMCs will do little since you have no disruption units to pop in Round 2 to occupy stuff... Doom, Ymgarls... even Devilgants.

Lets ignore Eldar with serpent spam to ignore your cover saves and blow the Venomthropes away first.

With Venoms, you should have a 3++ cover, like always. I threw the crone in there, but I'm not sure if its good, it'll be close. The missiles and VS rock, but it's not tough. But, I think if its in Area terrain and within 6" of the Venomstar it'll do just fine with that cover. (The best part is, I'm two models away from having this list, once I assemble some magnetized Crushing Claws. Then it's one Venom and a Crone for me! Compare it to the old 2000 point lists, it looks fun and dangerous with more stuff on the board.

The entirety of your tactics is based on having a Venomtrope give you cover saves ? Round 1 marker lights followed by a Overcharged IA and you can kiss that Venom brood goodbye and then what do you have ? Where is your survivability? Previously with 60 Gants you could easily have 8 scoring units + spawned rather than 4.

Double FOCs exploit our weaknesses far more. We have not alot that can protect us vs the high quality shooting out there anymore.

NamelessBard wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
Can someone sell the Crone to me? I see people saying it's good and including it in potential lists, but I'm not seeing it. Just a bunch of S5, which doesn't really cut it for the points cost and survivability. Although it has Rage, I think. Am I translating that correctly? Seems odd, but I guess it helps. Fexes have it too.

Otherwise, I'm sticking with my Flyrant's S6/T6/3+ goodness.

It's really not that great. If the thing couldn't be grounded. If the thing could target flyers with it's main gun. If vector striking didn't require being in the open most of the time. If it could fire 4 weapons like a flyer. If the cannon had torrent. If no one took quad guns. Then maybe it would be good (not to mention T6 Av 4+). The missiles are pretty good, but not at the expense of everything else.

It's even a little worse than that, T5 Sv4+. At least having 5 wounds keeps you from being one-shotted by a quad gun. Still, between that and grounding tests your Crone won't be around long.

 Therion wrote:

H.B.M.C wrote:Tyranids have had units that simply don’t work for over a decade, and once again they still suck; how can a studio that we have to presume understands their own game be so consistent in getting it wrong?

I'd side with your apathy presumption. I doubt they take the task of making every unit useful and interesting very seriously. Otherwise garbage such as the new Warriors or Stealers or Howling Banshees etc. wouldn't exist. I think one of my friends (who now works as a games designer / 3d artist in the video game industry) told me long ago that it's a shame that the people at the GW studio don't realise how much potential they have. They have a fan- and customer base that has proven to be willing to take it from behind and suffer through all sorts of crap with basically zero communication and encouragement from the HQ, but they just can't deliver a competitive product and take their company to the next level.

That's my one issue, above all else, with GW.

I'll take the prices, lack of communication, all the other nonsense, because, at the end of the day, I can (and have) divorce myself from the company and continue my hobby in other directions and with other companies.

What continues to get under my skin, no matter how much I might distance myself, is the massive squandering of potential, the difference between what 40K is and what it could be feels almost criminal.

Eldercaveman wrote:

ductvader wrote:

skarsol wrote:

Shingen wrote:
Defo getting more Venomthhropes if they give shrouded. Lictors with Stealth in that bubble have a 2+ cover save and can only be snapshotted at, that's a massive + on the survival front.

They give Shrouded to friendly Models (so Units) within 6".

Fantastic! I built mine from chaos spawn. All tentacles and hormagaunt heads...I don't like the current r@pethrope.

PM or link some photos, I'm interested to see what you've done, thanks

skarsol wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
So Bonesabres no longer force re-roll of successful invulnerable saves?

Boneswords are S User AP3 To Wound 6 = ID. Nothing about invuln saves. Pretty blah.

You will notice I said Bonesabres, not Swords.

Agreed.
Link or send pics.

 Gloomfang wrote:
Might want to rethink Crushing Claws on tervigons. They are kinda pointless as they ar AP2 armourbane unwieldy. Better off just using Smash.

Isn't Armourbane 2D6 for pen rolls? I'd think S7+2D6 from 3 base attacks is better than S10+1D6 re-rolled from 2 base attacks.

 xttz wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
Might want to rethink Crushing Claws on tervigons. They are kinda pointless as they ar AP2 armourbane unwieldy. Better off just using Smash.

Isn't Armourbane 2D6 for pen rolls? I'd think S7+2D6 from 3 base attacks is better than S10+1D6 re-rolled from 2 base attacks.

It is slightly better. But not 15 points better is the issue.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Therion wrote:

H.B.M.C wrote:Tyranids have had units that simply don’t work for over a decade, and once again they still suck; how can a studio that we have to presume understands their own game be so consistent in getting it wrong?

I'd side with your apathy presumption. I doubt they take the task of making every unit useful and interesting very seriously. Otherwise garbage such as the new Warriors or Stealers or Howling Banshees etc. wouldn't exist. I think one of my friends (who now works as a games designer / 3d artist in the video game industry) told me long ago that it's a shame that the people at the GW studio don't realise how much potential they have. They have a fan- and customer base that has proven to be willing to take it from behind and suffer through all sorts of crap with basically zero communication and encouragement from the HQ, but they just can't deliver a competitive product and take their company to the next level.

That's my one issue, above all else, with GW.

I'll take the prices, lack of communication, all the other nonsense, because, at the end of the day, I can (and have) divorce myself from the company and continue my hobby in other directions and with other companies.

What continues to get under my skin, no matter how much I might distance myself, is the massive squandering of potential, the difference between what 40K is and what it could be feels almost criminal.

A buyout and clearing house of all the old heads who have become complacent would fix this. I don't like seeing anyone lose their jobs, but there is such a thing as staying at one company for too long imo

 azreal13 wrote:

What continues to get under my skin, no matter how much I might distance myself, is the massive squandering of potential, the difference between what 40K is and what it could be feels almost criminal.

My sentiments exactly. I think the problem is the company culture and being (no offence) pretty much an inbred British firm. They sell their products globally but they don't make any attempts to headhunt/recruit the best (or even competitive) people in their field. It's an old boys club where everything will always be done 'like it's always been done'. What they need is a new company structure and a dozen ambitious games designers who'd quickly re-work the whole 40K product from the ground up, all the while respecting traditions and the GW brand. Despite that being what they need that's not what they want, so it'll never happen. Noone at GW has any ambition.

I can guarantee you if GW was an American company the game would be very different today.

NamelessBard wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

But yeah, Fexes have Rage. That's good...

I think coraje means fearless, not rage.

"Coraje" can mean rage, but also "courage" (or something of that ilk) as well. So yes, I was trying to think of another rule similar to it and forgot about fearless. Youre probably right, fearless seems much more likely.

I'm kind of in a shock at the moment. Can only remember one question - in what way is the Venomthrope better?

 Therion wrote:

This part of your post is outright bullgak. I don't know how far Dakka search goes, but if it goes back to the Tau release you'll find me and some other guy saying every single competitive Tau army will have 3 Riptides and 10 or more people arguing against that fact, calling Riptides overpriced if not outright bad for what they can do. Tau had a very mixed response. Some believed it to be strong, but a lot of people declared that they'll quit (just like Nid people do now) ...

And many of us did quit!
It was very obvious at that point that the Codex was horribly designed, and the fact that Riptides and some other things turned out to be op only served to reinforce the point.

 N.I.B. wrote:
I'm kind of in a shock at the moment. Can only remember one question - in what way is the Venomthrope better?

It's 10pts cheaper, and gives out a bubble of Shrouded (+2 to cover saves) rather than just a fixed 5+ cover save like before. It means nearby units can get 2+ or 3+ cover saves pretty easily.

Venomthropes are one of the few bright spots discovered thus far.

 N.I.B. wrote:
I'm kind of in a shock at the moment. Can only remember one question - in what way is the Venomthrope better?

It gives Shrouded, rather than a straight up 5+ cover, so therefore it will stack with area terrain etc

Yeah, Riptides were pretty much the starting point of me retreating from 40k. Sure, I struggled on for a couple of months, attended some tournaments / campaigns in June but yeah... I've played about 2 games of 40k since then.

And yet, I still find myself reading these darned rumour threads!

 Souleater wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
To the studio, other armies are proper protagonists and antagonists that get to have proper 'heroes' and 'villains'. Meanwhile Tyranids are just an animalistic adversary to be overcome. It's heroic and cinematic to have some level 1 librarian taking down a Trygon or Tervigon with a single swing of his force weapon, so that's acceptable. It's also heroic and cinematic for some SM officer suffer enormous blows from a Carnifex that should have pulverized him and keep fighting, so that's acceptable also. The EW rule is an expression of cinematic heroics/villainry.

I strongly suspect that you are correct. Even if this isn't The Studio's intent it has very much become the mind set of many Marine players.

If Tyranids were a third-party faction controlled by a GM or a random set of 'action cards' or some kind of flow chart that would be fine. But they aren't. I'm a player so why don't my monsters get to be heroic? Or are GW only interested in the kind of mainstream action movie cinematic experience?

How can anybody deal so poorly with iconic units such as 'stealers and Tyranid Warriors?

It frustrates me that GW can on the other hand produce a game like Space Hulk were both players can win or lose, where the two sides are both so different yet balanced...all while on the edge of their seats. The Marine player in SH knows he could lose. He knows that each marine can kill a dozen or more 'stealers but be torn apart at a stroke if he screws up or bad luck befalls him.

But that's because GW always like to narrate a story from the eyes of "someone". Since Tyranids don't feel like talking, you're not going to see a tyranid being heroic, since no one is there to talk about that heroism. You'll only see the same old trend : a bunch of guardsmen expressing their fear towards what killed their entire battalion or whatnot.
The Swarmlord (and his encounter against calgar) was a good idea to actually try to go beyond that.

 Compel wrote:
Yeah, Riptides were pretty much the starting point of me retreating from 40k. Sure, I struggled on for a couple of months, attended some tournaments / campaigns in June but yeah... I've played about 2 games of 40k since then.

And yet, I still find myself reading these darned rumour threads!

You're one of the many people we're discussing about. You're still a fan, and if GW just suddenly decided to start designing good games you'd start buying their products again. Alas, they don't, and you won't

N.I.B. wrote:I'm kind of in a shock at the moment. Can only remember one question - in what way is the Venomthrope better?

Cheaper and shrouded. Seems like Hive Guard was nerfed a bit too which weakens the competition in the same force organisation slots.

 Gloomfang wrote:
Might want to rethink Crushing Claws on tervigons. They are kinda pointless as they ar AP2 armourbane unwieldy. Better off just using Smash.

Monstrous Creatures ignore Unwieldy. And isn't the Tervigon like Initiative 1 anyway?

One thing bugging me is the Instant Deathability of the Crone/Harpy. I wont dare get them into a fist fight even outnumbering another MC, because it would just take one smash attack to delete the 130-150ish points.

One thing bugging me is the Instant Deathability of the Crone/Harpy. I wont dare get them into a fist fight even outnumbering another MC, because it would just take one smash attack to delete the 130-150ish points.

They should never land. If they do, they are dead anyways.

NamelessBard wrote:

 xttz wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
Might want to rethink Crushing Claws on tervigons. They are kinda pointless as they ar AP2 armourbane unwieldy. Better off just using Smash.

Isn't Armourbane 2D6 for pen rolls? I'd think S7+2D6 from 3 base attacks is better than S10+1D6 re-rolled from 2 base attacks.

It is slightly better. But not 15 points better is the issue.

The whole point of taking crushing claws on tervigons was because the bonus attacks from that plus the decent chance of getting Warp Speed through biomancy meant a ton of S10 attacks via smash. Now that all the bonus attacks are gone, it's really hard to justify.


On the whole, I'm reserving judgement until I have codex in hand and can lay everything out, but overall a lot of things that I liked about the army seemingly are gone, vastly diminished, or have failed to be brought up to a playable level.

Falling somewhere in the middle here myself- in play style, Tyranids look a lot more like they are seeing a return to the (high performance) play style of 3rd/4e bugs and seeing Fexes and many troops cheaper is a great shot in the arm. I used ONLY the Tyranid psychic powers for a couple of editions and it was fine- not that I don't enjoy the BRB powers too, I certainly do. But I suspect it still will be viable to take only bug powers. Significant point drops are going to be HUGE. I am very disappointed in the lack of love for Stealers and Lictors, I do agree that they have languished for too long and I have no idea what the writers are thinking by either not fixing or further disabling units when they need some help. Same with the Sororitas book and some others I could name. Hive Guard didn't need a nerf and cost increase either. Random 3 point boost for Rippers is funny too. I do think that this book is going to win a lot of games for sure, but it's only because we gained a couple units' worth of points back. I feel for those whose armies took a hit. But then Tervigon spam is really, really boring. Did we really expect it to stick around? My list got better, but I will probably leave more models at home than I would like. Probably a stronger book honestly, but an amazing amount of missed opportunity.

Second hand info from friends of friends but in response to the 'god old boys club' or whatnot: Yes, that's exactly the vibe that GW ex-employees tend to come away with. A bunch of UK super-dorks with no idea what people really want and some sort of idiotic stubbornness to complement their willful ignorance.

I will also add- Being able to Fleet your MC's is a big deal guys.

 The Shadow wrote:

 Imposter101 wrote:
So lets go through this wonderful release;

* No 2+ armour saves for Hive Tyrants except an artefact which can only be used every other turn
* Some units no longer in synapse eat themselves, meaning suicide for low leadership units
* The loss of Ymargl Genestealers, Spores, the Doom of Malantai, the parasite of mortex,
* The Pyrovore is still garbage
* A bunch of meh artefacts
* The loss of Biomancy

And lets sum this up, the codex has gotten even worse with this recent edition. This is the kind of thing that makes me think GW's writers despise it's fanbase. I mean, the Tyranids do now have the honour of being the army which has got terrible updates two times in a row.

The exocrine, if I'm recalling the rumours correctly, has an Assault 6 S7 AP2 gun, which can also be fired as a large blast.

Nid players would have killed for some good, long range anti-MEQ/TEQ like that with the other book.

*cough* 24 inches. *cough*

According to rumors on Crushing Claws (and the list I posted is a test list for a reason) they were 2x strength, armorbane, unwieldy. If they're just armorbane I wouldn't take them. Sadly the entire 'dex isn't up yet, and you can really only trust scans and your own eyesight.

As to Venomthropes, yes cover can be ignored by Tau. But if you fail to kill the markerlights, that is your fault and yours alone. Flyrants murder Pathfinders and marker drones, and 6 riptides is honestly a weak list. When in doubt, kill their troops while spawning. It usually works. Plus, hide Venoms out of LoS for extra fun.

 jifel wrote:
According to rumors on Crushing Claws (and the list I posted is a test list for a reason) they were 2x strength, armorbane, unwieldy. If they're just armorbane I wouldn't take them. Sadly the entire 'dex isn't up yet, and you can really only trust scans and your own eyesight.

As to Venomthropes, yes cover can be ignored by Tau. But if you fail to kill the markerlights, that is your fault and yours alone. Flyrants murder Pathfinders and marker drones, and 6 riptides is honestly a weak list. When in doubt, kill their troops while spawning. It usually works. Plus, hide Venoms out of LoS for extra fun.

S+1, Ap2, Armourbane and Unwieldy

They wouldn't force an MC to go at I1 anymore, but there is no reason to take them on tervigons for the reasons that Maelstrom808 summarized. With the Carnifex, Adrenal glands in a infinitely better buy.

 Therion wrote:


I can guarantee you if GW was an American company the game would be very different today.

And we would have an equal amount of protesting that they changed it, so it sucks. Look at D&D. Similarly long-entrenched franchise with so much history and an emphasis on storytelling. Fourth edition came out, pulled vancian spellcasting in order to fix the ancient linear fighter, quadratic wizard problem, and the internet exploded in rage and hate. To the point where an internally balanced system with decent promise was allowed to die a lingering death in favor of 'rebooting' D&D and bringing back the level 1 oneshot and scaling issues. It's entirely possible GW watched Hasbro suffer with 4e while Paizo raked it in with Pathfinder and decided it validated their approach of never really changing big things.

Ontopic: The issue is that venomthropes are so squishy random Thunderfire cannons or Smart Missiles can still smack them down really easily. Firing an Ion Accelerator blast is frankly overkill for just two T4 5+ wounds. I don't see the buff making a substantial difference in their utility.

 jifel wrote:
According to rumors on Crushing Claws (and the list I posted is a test list for a reason) they were 2x strength, armorbane, unwieldy. If they're just armorbane I wouldn't take them. Sadly the entire 'dex isn't up yet, and you can really only trust scans and your own eyesight.

As to Venomthropes, yes cover can be ignored by Tau. But if you fail to kill the markerlights, that is your fault and yours alone. Flyrants murder Pathfinders and marker drones, and 6 riptides is honestly a weak list. When in doubt, kill their troops while spawning. It usually works. Plus, hide Venoms out of LoS for extra fun.

Yes, 6 is weak. 3 is more than enough to cripple your list. And out of sight works so well for SMS.

Please stay on-topic.

@GreyH: If you want to post things about D&D that are wrong so that I can argue with you, we have a forum for that.

 the shrouded lord wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

 Imposter101 wrote:
So lets go through this wonderful release;

* No 2+ armour saves for Hive Tyrants except an artefact which can only be used every other turn
* Some units no longer in synapse eat themselves, meaning suicide for low leadership units
* The loss of Ymargl Genestealers, Spores, the Doom of Malantai, the parasite of mortex,
* The Pyrovore is still garbage
* A bunch of meh artefacts
* The loss of Biomancy

And lets sum this up, the codex has gotten even worse with this recent edition. This is the kind of thing that makes me think GW's writers despise it's fanbase. I mean, the Tyranids do now have the honour of being the army which has got terrible updates two times in a row.

The exocrine, if I'm recalling the rumours correctly, has an Assault 6 S7 AP2 gun, which can also be fired as a large blast.

Nid players would have killed for some good, long range anti-MEQ/TEQ like that with the other book.

*cough* 24 inches. *cough*

Most marine weapons are only 24" anyway so they'll need to come into range of the Exocrine. Sure, there are weapons that outrange this guy but they normally camp backfield (Devs, Long Fangs) or are squishy vehicles, ripe targets for Carnifexes with Fleet to lung across the board at and shred to bits.

 jifel wrote:
Using my Very flawed knowledge of Spanish, here's my idea of a 2000 point list... it ain't bad folks, it ain't bad.

Hive Tyrant: (Wings, 2x TL Devourers) 230
Hive Tyrant: (Wings, 2x TL Devourers) 230
Tyranid Prime (maw claws of Thyrax) 135
30 gants 120
30 gants 120
Tervigon (Toxin, Adrenal, Crushing Claws) 235
Tervigon (Toxin, Adrenal, Crushing Claws) 235
3 Venomthropes 135
Crone 155
Tyrannofex (Rupture Cannon)205
25 Gargoyles (Adrenal Glands) 200

A lot of wounds and models being set down there. Tactics? Venomthropes/prime in the center, and every MC and one gant each is within 6" until I'm on their doorstep. Lovely stuff! Look at that. Just kill the pathfinders early and even Tau have trouble dealing with this lot. With Venoms, you should have a 3++ cover, like always. I threw the crone in there, but I'm not sure if its good, it'll be close. The missiles and VS rock, but it's not tough. But, I think if its in Area terrain and within 6" of the Venomstar it'll do just fine with that cover. (The best part is, I'm two models away from having this list, once I assemble some magnetized Crushing Claws. Then it's one Venom and a Crone for me! Compare it to the old 2000 point lists, it looks fun and dangerous with more stuff on the board.

2 sky rays kill your tyrants without blinking.

Riptide with velocity tracker and target lock murders your crone.

The rest is just mop up. Try again.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 jifel wrote:
Using my Very flawed knowledge of Spanish, here's my idea of a 2000 point list... it ain't bad folks, it ain't bad.

Hive Tyrant: (Wings, 2x TL Devourers) 230
Hive Tyrant: (Wings, 2x TL Devourers) 230
Tyranid Prime (maw claws of Thyrax) 135
30 gants 120
30 gants 120
Tervigon (Toxin, Adrenal, Crushing Claws) 235
Tervigon (Toxin, Adrenal, Crushing Claws) 235
3 Venomthropes 135
Crone 155
Tyrannofex (Rupture Cannon)205
25 Gargoyles (Adrenal Glands) 200

A lot of wounds and models being set down there. Tactics? Venomthropes/prime in the center, and every MC and one gant each is within 6" until I'm on their doorstep. Lovely stuff! Look at that. Just kill the pathfinders early and even Tau have trouble dealing with this lot. With Venoms, you should have a 3++ cover, like always. I threw the crone in there, but I'm not sure if its good, it'll be close. The missiles and VS rock, but it's not tough. But, I think if its in Area terrain and within 6" of the Venomstar it'll do just fine with that cover. (The best part is, I'm two models away from having this list, once I assemble some magnetized Crushing Claws. Then it's one Venom and a Crone for me! Compare it to the old 2000 point lists, it looks fun and dangerous with more stuff on the board.

2 sky rays kill your tyrants without blinking.

Riptide with velocity tracker and target lock murders your crone.

The rest is just mop up. Try again.

That list and tactic is just begging for some ignores cover templates to eat it alive. Heldrakes, LRR, Hellhounds, Markerlight Tau spamming blasts. Hell, with Escalation out now its asking for a D-Blast to one shot your army.

 The Shadow wrote:

NamelessBard wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

But yeah, Fexes have Rage. That's good...

I think coraje means fearless, not rage.

"Coraje" can mean rage, but also "courage" (or something of that ilk) as well. So yes, I was trying to think of another rule similar to it and forgot about fearless. Youre probably right, fearless seems much more likely.

In the Eldar Codex Fearless has been translated as Coraje so it should stay constant... but then in that same Codex they use two different words to translate Stalker so everything is possible due to the high level of care used to translate things to Spanish

M.

 jifel wrote:
But if you fail to kill the markerlights, that is your fault and yours alone.

Do explain this further. I'm curious as to going second and being marker-lit off the table is somehow the fault of the non-Tau player.

 Deadshot wrote:

 the shrouded lord wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

 Imposter101 wrote:
So lets go through this wonderful release;

* No 2+ armour saves for Hive Tyrants except an artefact which can only be used every other turn
* Some units no longer in synapse eat themselves, meaning suicide for low leadership units
* The loss of Ymargl Genestealers, Spores, the Doom of Malantai, the parasite of mortex,
* The Pyrovore is still garbage
* A bunch of meh artefacts
* The loss of Biomancy

And lets sum this up, the codex has gotten even worse with this recent edition. This is the kind of thing that makes me think GW's writers despise it's fanbase. I mean, the Tyranids do now have the honour of being the army which has got terrible updates two times in a row.

The exocrine, if I'm recalling the rumours correctly, has an Assault 6 S7 AP2 gun, which can also be fired as a large blast.

Nid players would have killed for some good, long range anti-MEQ/TEQ like that with the other book.

*cough* 24 inches. *cough*

Most marine weapons are only 24" anyway so they'll need to come into range of the Exocrine. Sure, there are weapons that outrange this guy but they normally camp backfield (Devs, Long Fangs) or are squishy vehicles, ripe targets for Carnifexes with Fleet to lung across the board at and shred to bits.

yeah its actually 30" range cause you get to move, so with 12" deployment, thats 42" of table on a walking dude....

my ENTIRE army is 24" as gk, its not noticable when everything can fire on the move
in other news,
I literally think this codex is the best thing since riptides, as a genuine compliment.

more meat for the dreadknights!

 GreyHamster wrote:
And we would have an equal amount of protesting that they changed it, so it sucks.

You're missing Theron's point entirely.

 Deadshot wrote:

 the shrouded lord wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

 Imposter101 wrote:
So lets go through this wonderful release;

* No 2+ armour saves for Hive Tyrants except an artefact which can only be used every other turn
* Some units no longer in synapse eat themselves, meaning suicide for low leadership units
* The loss of Ymargl Genestealers, Spores, the Doom of Malantai, the parasite of mortex,
* The Pyrovore is still garbage
* A bunch of meh artefacts
* The loss of Biomancy

And lets sum this up, the codex has gotten even worse with this recent edition. This is the kind of thing that makes me think GW's writers despise it's fanbase. I mean, the Tyranids do now have the honour of being the army which has got terrible updates two times in a row.

The exocrine, if I'm recalling the rumours correctly, has an Assault 6 S7 AP2 gun, which can also be fired as a large blast.

Nid players would have killed for some good, long range anti-MEQ/TEQ like that with the other book.

*cough* 24 inches. *cough*

Most marine weapons are only 24" anyway so they'll need to come into range of the Exocrine. Sure, there are weapons that outrange this guy but they normally camp backfield (Devs, Long Fangs) or are squishy vehicles, ripe targets for Carnifexes with Fleet to lung across the board at and shred to bits.

Good point.
Have an exalt for your intelligence

 easysauce wrote:
yeah its actually 30" range cause you get to move, so with 12" deployment, thats 42" of table on a walking dude....

Of course if you move the shooty shooting guy who does nothing but shoot and has no reason to exist beyond shooting drops down to BS3.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

 jifel wrote:
Using my Very flawed knowledge of Spanish, here's my idea of a 2000 point list... it ain't bad folks, it ain't bad.

Hive Tyrant: (Wings, 2x TL Devourers) 230
Hive Tyrant: (Wings, 2x TL Devourers) 230
Tyranid Prime (maw claws of Thyrax) 135
30 gants 120
30 gants 120
Tervigon (Toxin, Adrenal, Crushing Claws) 235
Tervigon (Toxin, Adrenal, Crushing Claws) 235
3 Venomthropes 135
Crone 155
Tyrannofex (Rupture Cannon)205
25 Gargoyles (Adrenal Glands) 200

A lot of wounds and models being set down there. Tactics? Venomthropes/prime in the center, and every MC and one gant each is within 6" until I'm on their doorstep. Lovely stuff! Look at that. Just kill the pathfinders early and even Tau have trouble dealing with this lot. With Venoms, you should have a 3++ cover, like always. I threw the crone in there, but I'm not sure if its good, it'll be close. The missiles and VS rock, but it's not tough. But, I think if its in Area terrain and within 6" of the Venomstar it'll do just fine with that cover. (The best part is, I'm two models away from having this list, once I assemble some magnetized Crushing Claws. Then it's one Venom and a Crone for me! Compare it to the old 2000 point lists, it looks fun and dangerous with more stuff on the board.

2 sky rays kill your tyrants without blinking.

Riptide with velocity tracker and target lock murders your crone.

The rest is just mop up. Try again.

That list and tactic is just begging for some ignores cover templates to eat it alive. Heldrakes, LRR, Hellhounds, Markerlight Tau spamming blasts. Hell, with Escalation out now its asking for a D-Blast to one shot your army.

Heldrakes aren't that great against Nids. swarms limit where it can land, maybe it kills a venomthrope. Wasted turn. Hellhound? please. Markerlights can be killed in every form they come in by Flyrants. True, a Riptide with CnC commander is a big problem for this list, but I admit it's not perfect. Land Raider Redeemers need to get close, and would die well before that. Not mentioned, but serpent shields ignore cover yes, but that doesn't effect the 3+ armor fortunately. Venomthrope star might be more viable with a pure MC rush, we'l have to see.

Skyrays won't be able to get my Flyrants until they're in the air, and aren't a very popular choice frankly. Not concerned. There is no situation where my Flyrants are in LoS when I deploy. Kill markerlights, and skyrays aren't that good anymore. Hide flyers turn one, then pop out and kill markerlights. If his are hidden, great. They're heavy, so if he pops out they'll be pretty ineffective. Haywire missiles and Tyrannofex can do mean things to vehicles, Flyrants can glance out vehicles.

Again, this isn't perfect. But, I like the idea. I'll playtest it, refine it, change it, drop things and add things. I could very well drop the Crone for 3 biovores (poof markerlights) and some upgrades. We'll find out. But we essentially have the codex, anyone else want to throw some ideas for lists out?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 jifel wrote:
But if you fail to kill the markerlights, that is your fault and yours alone.

Do explain this further. I'm curious as to going second and being marker-lit off the table is somehow the fault of the non-Tau player.

If your Flyrants are in LoS of the markerlights turn one, either you or the table has a problem. Still, you can usually survive one turn of markerlights. True though, getting second turn against a good Tau list is just bad for everyone, so perhaps my original statement was a little too strong.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
yeah its actually 30" range cause you get to move, so with 12" deployment, thats 42" of table on a walking dude....

Of course if you move the shooty shooting guy who does nothing but shoot and has no reason to exist beyond shooting drops down to BS3.

ummm that post makes 0 sense man... hes BS 3 to start with... stop living in the past and all that lol

is his weapon heavy? I thought it was assault.. so he can move, whats the big dealio about moving a guy who shoots?

besides, as others mention its really not a crippling range for what it is...

this new dex brings a lot to the table if you are willing to not look at it with "omgur psychic choir doom malantai or bust"

swarms of 4 pt guants are HUGE... they will eat up much more expensive troops once you get there, or your opponent is wasting shots on 4 pt models...

cheap carnifexes and MC's in general, even at a 3+ is pretty good, most people have difficulty with my 3 DK's, and I never get hit with ap3, its all ap2 or bust anyways,
3 carnifexes some flying tyrants + swarms of gargoyles rushing?

you can throw soooo much in your opponents face, shrug off casualties cheaper then orks, and move with fleet every turn...

seriously glad I play GK a lot so I have lots of force weapons... been a god send against riptides/wraith knights ect too

I feel really bad for people without armies of force weapons who have to deal with a competent player who can focuse on the MC/ zerg CC rush and get everything in by turn 2-3

Have they completely removed any opportunity to take any 2+ save in this book for hq?

I could see GW doing some Nid dataslates/supplements around seeding swarms or cults that give them the opportunity to buff lictors and stealers.

Stealers are an iconic unit in 40k, but I always saw them as belonging more in space hulk, or a hive city, rather than in an army proper. Likewise, lictors have always been portrayed as working ahead of the fleets to gain intel, and then presumably be rendered down for more gaunts/mcs/whatever.

 easysauce wrote:
ummm that post makes 0 sense man... hes BS 3 to start with... stop living in the past and all that lol

He's BS4 when he doesn't move. Do try to keep up.

ymgarl data slate? like a cult infestation thing or something?

probably .. sounds like something GW would do...

Id love it... first data slate id like,
return of genestealer cults!

 spacemarinedude92 wrote:
Have they completely removed any opportunity to take any 2+ save in this book for hq?

You can take an upgrade on a single character in your list that gives him a 2+ save. But only in close combat. And only every other round.

So really the short answer to your question is: Yes.

 spacemarinedude92 wrote:
Have they completely removed any opportunity to take any 2+ save in this book for hq?

Against shooting yes. There's a (pricey!) upgrade that can let you choose a buff each assault phase, one is +1 armor.

Edit: Ninja'd by HBMC, who is spot on.

As to the Exocrine, I think you can afford to move it turn 1 and two up into the middle of the board, but then he should be kept still. The large blast will not be affected much by this though.

Looks like lots of small nerfs and a 20% point cost reduction across the board on most of the old stuff. The combo actually seems like a balanced book that can shake up the meta.

I head biovores became both cheaper and more effective, but have not seen any details yet.

I see some competitive builds, I just hope there are multiple competitive builds.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
ummm that post makes 0 sense man... hes BS 3 to start with... stop living in the past and all that lol

He's BS4 when he doesn't move. Do try to keep up.

you were complaining about some shooty guy with bs 3 before... maybe dont call em shoooty shoooty guys so i can tell next time

anyways, BS 3 and moving and bs 4 stationary is awesome for that weapon... bs still can hit things, and once its in position with a good table veiw you can stand still, its not a noticable flaw by any margin.


Nids can just bring soo much fast cheap infantry, and MC's they will have lots of good builds with this dex, way better then the one trick pony of psy choir+guan spawn, although that is still a decent option minus the BRB powers

 Cruentus wrote:
I could see GW doing some Nid dataslates/supplements around seeding swarms or cults that give them the opportunity to buff lictors and stealers.

Per White Dwarf, there is a "Codex Dataslate: Tyranid Vanguard".

Product description:

Detailing the Tyranid organisms utilised in first-strike situations, Tyranid Vanguard is a supplement for Warhammer 40,000 that enables you to unleash a spearhead of Lictors, Genestealers, and more.

There is also "Codex Dataslate: Tyrannic War Veterans".

In the aftermath of the Battle for Macragge, Chaplain Cassius organised an elite band of warriors as shield against the Tyranid threat. This Dataslate enables you to use this stalwart band of alien hunters.

I like the idea of taking 9 Carnifexes and OOE as an HQ, so I put my 10 Carnifexes on the table, but I'm fearful that the 'Fexes will eat one another thanks to the new random cinematic IB tables.

 jifel wrote:
As to the Exocrine, I think you can afford to move it turn 1 and two up into the middle of the board, but then he should be kept still. The large blast will not be affected much by this though.

Probably yes. If you can get it into a decent ruins somewhere it might work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 easysauce wrote:
you were complaining about some shooty guy with bs 3 before... maybe dont call em shoooty shoooty guys so i can tell next time

Yes, the Hive Guard, which dropped to BS3 and went up 10 points. Then we were talking about the Exocrine and it's mighty earth-shattering 24" range. I'll say it again: Try to keep up!

and the whole 2+ isnt a big deal... its A deal, but before the pitchforks come out

all my 2+ models always are hit by ap2 stuff... there is really very little ap3 out there, so you get your save ~ as often as a 2+ does,

but yes, to massed small arms fire, obs a 3+ will fail more then a 2+, but there isnt that much t62+ outside of GK.

I think the lack of ++'s is a much bigger issue

 easysauce wrote:
and the whole 2+ isnt a big deal... its A deal, but before the pitchforks come out

all my 2+ models always are hit by ap2 stuff... there is really very little ap3 out there, so you get your save ~ as often as a 2+ does,

but yes, to massed small arms fire, obs a 3+ will fail more then a 2+, but there isnt that much t62+ outside of GK.

I think the lack of ++'s is a much bigger issue

Just because something happens with your GK army doesn't mean it applies to a Tyranid army. Have you even played Tyranids before?



Apparently Tervigons don't share biomorphs anymore, termigant units still explode with it dies and the spawned gants can't assault the turn they spawn.

Something that hasn't been mentioned yet: Hive Guards other weapons. Based on the spanish document, I believe they are 18", str 5 ap 5 haywire and maybe small blast. They also seem to be +5 points as an option... Thoughts?

I think that, should Hive Guard be taken, it will be with Impalers. They'll be just as effective against most vehicles (except LR) but are cheaper a bit and have more shots vs Infantry and are better at that. So I expect those to remain the Hive Guard of choice, now I just don't know if they're worth it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NamelessBard wrote:


Apparently Tervigons don't share biomorphs anymore, termigant units still explode with it dies and the spawned gants can't assault the turn they spawn.

...and where's this from? It'd be pretty rough if true, but no one with the codex has said anything like that on this thread, or in Warseer, Bols, and thetyranidhive as far as I've seen...
Of course I could be wrong. Where'd you hear that though?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
ummm that post makes 0 sense man... hes BS 3 to start with... stop living in the past and all that lol

He's BS4 when he doesn't move. Do try to keep up.

Pun intended?

 jifel wrote:
Something that hasn't been mentioned yet: Hive Guards other weapons. Based on the spanish document, I believe they are 18", str 5 ap 5 haywire and maybe small blast. They also seem to be +5 points as an option... Thoughts?

I think that, should Hive Guard be taken, it will be with Impalers. They'll be just as effective against most vehicles (except LR) but are cheaper a bit and have more shots vs Infantry and are better at that. So I expect those to remain the Hive Guard of choice, now I just don't know if they're worth it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NamelessBard wrote:


Apparently Tervigons don't share biomorphs anymore, termigant units still explode with it dies and the spawned gants can't assault the turn they spawn.

...and where's this from? It'd be pretty rough if true, but no one with the codex has said anything like that on this thread, or in Warseer, Bols, and thetyranidhive as far as I've seen...
Of course I could be wrong. Where'd you hear that though?

Warseer and the Hive. Multiple people have said so, but that doesn't mean it's not one person repeating the first rumor.


As to the hive guard. The original weapon will be the one of choice. Haywire doesn't make up for a loss of 6", less strength, less AP, ignore cover and out of sight shooting.

And they are bs3....

 Ravenous D wrote:
And they are bs3....

... and more expensive, so adding even more points to them seems like a bad idea.

The troops Tervigons sound like a pretty raw deal to me. They're expensive, worse than before and force you to take those massive Gaunt balls. Just a hunch but I guess people will go with MSU in troops and just spend their points in the other slots. Nids will need some allies or dataslates to get a fourth (or even fifth) heavy support choice since it seems all the good stuff is in there.

Any idea if the can only take 1 of 3 rumored biomorphs for tervigons is true?

Crone is bs3 with 4 1 shot missiles. And its flamer isn't torrent.

And the ones backing this are clinging to venomthropes like no army has S8 or multi shot ignores cover weapons in the game.

Friend of mine just sent me this:

"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. Every man who has ventured here over the decades has looked up to the light and imagined climbing to competitiveness. So easy... So simple... And like shipwrecked men turning to sea water from uncontrollable thirst, many have been fired trying. I learned here that there can be no true despair without hope. So, as I terrorize 40k fans, I will feed its people hope to poison their souls. I will let them believe they can survive so that you can watch them clamouring over each other to "stay in the sun." You can watch me torture an entire fan base and when you have truly understood the depth of your failure, we will fulfil Kirby's destiny... We will destroy 40k and then, when it is done and 40k is ashes, then you have my permission to buy."

Heh.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Any idea if the can only take 1 of 3 rumored biomorphs for tervigons is true?

Those were obvisouly made up when they were first mentioned

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Friend of mine just sent me this:

"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. Every man who has ventured here over the decades has looked up to the light and imagined climbing to competitiveness. So easy... So simple... And like shipwrecked men turning to sea water from uncontrollable thirst, many have been fired trying. I learned here that there can be no true despair without hope. So, as I terrorize 40k fans, I will feed its people hope to poison their souls. I will let them believe they can survive so that you can watch them clamouring over each other to "stay in the sun." You can watch me torture an entire fan base and when you have truly understood the depth of your failure, we will fulfil Kirby's destiny... We will destroy 40k and then, when it is done and 40k is ashes, then you have my permission to buy."

Heh.

I'd love to defend the codex from this. (brilliant by the way)

The White Knight Rises...

 jifel wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Friend of mine just sent me this:

"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. Every man who has ventured here over the decades has looked up to the light and imagined climbing to competitiveness. So easy... So simple... And like shipwrecked men turning to sea water from uncontrollable thirst, many have been fired trying. I learned here that there can be no true despair without hope. So, as I terrorize 40k fans, I will feed its people hope to poison their souls. I will let them believe they can survive so that you can watch them clamouring over each other to "stay in the sun." You can watch me torture an entire fan base and when you have truly understood the depth of your failure, we will fulfil Kirby's destiny... We will destroy 40k and then, when it is done and 40k is ashes, then you have my permission to buy."

Heh.

I'd love to defend the codex from this. (brilliant by the way)

The White Knight Rises...

/thread

 jifel wrote:


I'd love to defend the codex from this. (brilliant by the way)

The White Knight Rises...

You can't. At this point you are still nursing the broken Credit card in the GW money pit.

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."

-Imperium Thought for the Day

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Friend of mine just sent me this:

"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. Every man who has ventured here over the decades has looked up to the light and imagined climbing to competitiveness. So easy... So simple... And like shipwrecked men turning to sea water from uncontrollable thirst, many have been fired trying. I learned here that there can be no true despair without hope. So, as I terrorize 40k fans, I will feed its people hope to poison their souls. I will let them believe they can survive so that you can watch them clamouring over each other to "stay in the sun." You can watch me torture an entire fan base and when you have truly understood the depth of your failure, we will fulfil Kirby's destiny... We will destroy 40k and then, when it is done and 40k is ashes, then you have my permission to buy."

Heh.

Have an exalt. That's the best.

Mawlocs are looking pretty good. 140 and better rules.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Crone is bs3 with 4 1 shot missiles. And its flamer isn't torrent.

And the ones backing this are clinging to venomthropes like no army has S8 or multi shot ignores cover weapons in the game.

It's a freaking flying TMC with a giant oval base...not a vehicle...who needs torrent?

 ductvader wrote:
It's a freaking flying TMC with a giant oval base...not a vehicle...who needs torrent?

Someone who's T5 with a 4+ save, I'd say.

Yup, needing to be 8" vs 20" away isn't a big deal.

What is the trygon's rule "despliegue rapido" translate to in English? Rapid deployment? Is that a new ability?

My book is in tomorrow, can't wait to start eating face.

 ductvader wrote:
My book is in tomorrow, can't wait to start eating face.

Normally I don't care when my book arrives; I pick it up on the Monday. This time though I'm going to be looking tonight and tomorrow to see if it's arrived.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
What is the trygon's rule "despliegue rapido" translate to in English? Rapid deployment? Is that a new ability?

Spanish version of deep strike. Nvm.

Sounds like I'm possibly done with 40k outside of painting stuff until 7th edition. A shame, because I was quite prepared to blow more money on my bugs.

GW proves again that they are a bunch of idiots.

So Dakka, which are your estimations of when will GW cease to exist?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
My book is in tomorrow, can't wait to start eating face.

Normally I don't care when my book arrives; I pick it up on the Monday. This time though I'm going to be looking tonight and tomorrow to see if it's arrived.

Honestly, 30% of my enjoyment in this hobby is the act of list building itself.

While this does not affect me much since I was only gonna buy Nids for the models, I fully sympathize with all my fellow nid players.

Our only hope is that the datasheets/supplements rectify some of this stupidity.

What were some of the things people were expecting for so much negativity?

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Our only hope is that the datasheets/supplements rectify some of this stupidity.

Well, there might be a faq...

Alas, no Hormies-spawning Tervigons. That was the only thing I wanted...

 ductvader wrote:
Honestly, 30% of my enjoyment in this hobby is the act of list building itself.

I have to admit, it's the same for me. I really love making lists. It's been so long since I've really done it. I need to work that "muscle" (so to speak) out again, and if I have to do with with a super-nerfed Hive Fleet, then so do it.

bodazoka wrote:
What were some of the things people were expecting for so much negativity?

Lictors to be viable for the first time in 10 years.
Genestealers that can make it into combat (granted that's more a general 6th Ed problem, but it could've been dealt with inside this Codex).
Warriors that are worth taking.
Psychic powers worth a damn.

The list goes on and on.

bodazoka wrote:
What were some of the things people were expecting for so much negativity?

Something better that the current dex, which tbh isn't something hard to do. But GW shows again that their incompetence knows no limits.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Our only hope is that the datasheets/supplements rectify some of this stupidity.

Well, there might be a faq...

Alas, no Hormies-spawning Tervigons. That was the only thing I wanted...

FAQ for what exactly? To fix an entire codex? I believe that's called a... codex!

bodazoka wrote:
What were some of the things people were expecting for so much negativity?

Rending ponies.

bodazoka wrote:
What were some of the things people were expecting for so much negativity?

Not being made worse than our previous codex which even GW studio members aknowledged had a lot of problems?

The fact they knew it was bad, and made it worse shows either they a. don't know what they're doing, or b. did it deliberately.

Considering they work for a company that likes money and there's no financial reason to torpedo your own products sales with a bad army book, so I'm going with option a.

 gorgon wrote:

bodazoka wrote:
What were some of the things people were expecting for so much negativity?

Rending ponies.

Oh please! Ponies are broken enough as it is. They don't need Rending as well.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Our only hope is that the datasheets/supplements rectify some of this stupidity.

Well, there might be a faq...

Alas, no Hormies-spawning Tervigons. That was the only thing I wanted...

Hormies lay eggs. I would have loved a FW piece of terrain that spit out hormagaunts. Perhaps there is still hope?

 Kirasu wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Our only hope is that the datasheets/supplements rectify some of this stupidity.

Well, there might be a faq...

Alas, no Hormies-spawning Tervigons. That was the only thing I wanted...

FAQ for what exactly? To fix an entire codex? I believe that's called a... codex!

Some things could help. Shadow extending up to Synapse range would already be a good start. It'd also be easy to fix the tail weapon issue. Fixing the Mawloc tunneling rule would only require a paragraph, and if well done, it'd compensate for losing the spore pods.

What's the view like from that high-horse, BlaxicanX?

evilsponge wrote:
Reminder that Robin Cruddace has a doctorate in Physics but instead chose to pursue a career in terrible game design.

... of a game where physics mean nothing.

T

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Our only hope is that the datasheets/supplements rectify some of this stupidity.

Well, there might be a faq...

Alas, no Hormies-spawning Tervigons. That was the only thing I wanted...

Hormies lay eggs. I would have loved a FW piece of terrain that spit out hormagaunts. Perhaps there is still hope?

There is no hope, Sadly I was hoping this codex was going to be good and good at what Tyranids are supposed to do best and that's CC. This does not give me hope for my BA army getting a good CC codex.

It appears on its surface that this codex is going to have one mono build of a good amount of FMC , a CD knock off lol.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
What's the view like from that high-horse, BlaxicanX?

Join me at the top, and see for yourself.

There's room for two.

BlackArmour wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Our only hope is that the datasheets/supplements rectify some of this stupidity.

Well, there might be a faq...

Alas, no Hormies-spawning Tervigons. That was the only thing I wanted...

Hormies lay eggs. I would have loved a FW piece of terrain that spit out hormagaunts. Perhaps there is still hope?

There is no hope, Sadly I was hoping this codex was going to be good and good at what Tyranids are supposed to do best and that's CC. This does not give me hope for my BA army getting a good CC codex.

It appears on its surface that this codex is going to have one mono build of a good amount of FMC , a CD knock off lol.

Don't remind me! As you can tell from my name, BA are my #1 army.

Though to be fair, with the current C:SM points costs, they'll at least be viable even if their CC stays the same or gets worse (and really, I do not see how it can get worse right seeing as how 6e was essentially "Lets take everything that makes BA good an nerf it!"

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
What's the view like from that high-horse, BlaxicanX?

Join me at the top, and see for yourself.

There's room for two.

Three, even.

Feels good man.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Join me at the top, and see for yourself.

There's room for two.

I'd have to get off my soap box first.

This is going what I'm going to tell to anyone that complains about Blizzard terrible writing skills (which are indeed TERRIBLE).
"Guys, in the gaming world there is 2 kinds of companies, the one that can't write to save its own life, but actually knows what it is doing; and GW; what do you prefer?".

I wish I could just keep my 5E dex :(

 SHUPPET wrote:
I wish I could just keep my 5E dex :(

I never thought I would ever hear anyone say that in regards to Nids.

 SHUPPET wrote:
I wish I could just keep my 5E dex :(

Do you think you'd have said that two weeks ago? Do you think anyone would ever say that about the 5th Ed 'Nid 'Dex?

Nids didnt think it could get worse either ferrum........ but it did.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
"So what I'm basically getting is that the Tau Codex is way over the top on shooting, and nobody likes that. The thing that all seem to be complaining about is the new Nid Dex isn't more over the top to deal with it.

So taking Tau out of the equation, how do you think they will do against Marines, IG, Dark Eldar, Chaos and Orks?"

Eldar will shoot and run shoot and run. gunning you down as you try to get to them, Marines-grav guns and Bolters I really don't need to explain that one. Dark Eldar-poison andddd laugh. Choas SM- will be too busy crying with their awful book in hand and orks will shoot you to pieces with waves of fire as will IG and Both of those are set to get new Dexs so that stand to get worse.

They took points costs down on some things and nerfed them and Nerfed some things and raised their points costs and gave Nids Cheap FMC and no real skyfire in their dex. It doesnt look great at this moment, not sky is falling kind of person but one mono build that people will eventually known exactly how to crush isnt fun

Hmm looks like biovores went down in price, land d3 spores, and spores get to move 3"/turn in any direction they want.

Weird.

I've had great luck using Monstrous Creatures and Venomthropes, to the point of exclusivity - this book promises to make both significantly better.

I am excited. Cheaper, more options, faster, and new t6 Elite ap2 monsters to boot? This is Great News!

Also, tyrannofexen are now costed reasonably. They were usable before, but now, I think 2 of them plus 1-2 plasma bugs will be sufficient for me. It's kind of like when I go to the games store; lumber to the objective slowly then get in everyone's way until they devote enough resources or firepower to get rid of me.

Wait, what?

This is probably going to be one of the worst codex releases ever.

Not because it won't competitive; I'm sure there will be strong lists.

But because there's not an iota of creativity to be found across the entire sorry mess

SBG wrote:
Weird.

I've had great luck using Monstrous Creatures and Venomthropes, to the point of exclusivity - this book promises to make both significantly better.

I am excited. Cheaper, more options, faster, and new t6 Elite ap2 monsters to boot? This is Great News!

Also, tyrannofexen are now costed reasonably. They were usable before, but now, I think 2 of them plus 1-2 plasma bugs will be sufficient for me. It's kind of like when I go to the games store; lumber to the objective slowly then get in everyone's way until they devote enough resources or firepower to get rid of me.

Wait, what?

Nidzilla is a good way to go honestly. You just need to figure out how to deal with things that ignore cover, are AP3 (no more 2+ saves for MCs) or cause ID.

Not being snarky, its the list I am looking at making. That or flying circus.

Flying Circus seems to be the way too go.

 Gloomfang wrote:

SBG wrote:
Weird.

I've had great luck using Monstrous Creatures and Venomthropes, to the point of exclusivity - this book promises to make both significantly better.

I am excited. Cheaper, more options, faster, and new t6 Elite ap2 monsters to boot? This is Great News!

Also, tyrannofexen are now costed reasonably. They were usable before, but now, I think 2 of them plus 1-2 plasma bugs will be sufficient for me. It's kind of like when I go to the games store; lumber to the objective slowly then get in everyone's way until they devote enough resources or firepower to get rid of me.

Wait, what?

Nidzilla is a good way to go honestly. You just need to figure out how to deal with things that ignore cover, are AP3 (no more 2+ saves for MCs) or cause ID.

Not being snarky, its the list I am looking at making. That or flying circus.

Eldar Iyanden lists will absolutely murder Nidzilla.

Is it just me, or have tyranids gotten steadily worse with each new edition? They were kinda crap in 3rd when I started with 40k, but now?

I forget who said it, but yeah, they're like the faceless mooks of 40k... they exist to make every other army seem more heroic and, er, protagonist-y.

Like, why is the prime 35 more points? WHY?

dumbuket wrote:
Like, why is the prime 35 more points? WHY?

To help you forge a cinematic narrative.

Lots of things and list murder MCs now. Before everyone tooled up for mech and our MCs laughed off those weapons because we had so many wounds. No one REALLY prepared for 3 to MCs.

Now there are tons of MCs in all the top lists, so folks tool up to deal with it.

Passionately indifferent. I don't know how else to describe the GW game design attitude.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I wish I could just keep my 5E dex :(

Do you think you'd have said that two weeks ago? Do you think anyone would ever say that about the 5th Ed 'Nid 'Dex?

As soon as I saw the rumour that Doom & Spores were out of the dex I wasn't completely thrown but I realised we were going to need to unlock a lot of flawed options for this dex to be anything but a sidegrade.



I held out hope that there would be EW grantable for Warriors& Rav's, Trygon tunnels, sensible ways of getting Hormagants Lictors and Stealers into combat (this one may actually have improved slightly but not sensibly), None of these things were given, more was taken out (Biomancy & Parasite), so yeah, I suspected it might come to this two weeks ago, i had just held out hope that it wouldn't. What we have gained doesn't even make up for what we have LOST, and realistically it should not just be equal to it should be MORE coming into a new codex, this isn't an FAQ. Whether or not the codex gets a competitively stronger mono-build or not, I have just lost a bunch of options coming into the Dex and the only way to replace them is by spending tons of cash on new overpriced Monstrous Creatures (which tbh aren't even very nice sculpts). So yeah I now have a bunch of useless models on my bench and the tradeoff for this is a codex that seems to sit at a similar or lower level of power, with smaller total unit count. I want my 5E dex back, which I don't think was something even asked for by the Eldarbook skeptics. This release was handled beyond poorly.

I'm definitely concerned and a bit irritated as it does look like tyranids got worse. We will see how things shake out but I may sell part of my 6600pt tyranid army to fund my growing HH army. (on a related note, most of the AdMech stuff has stats and point costs exactly what Tyranids should be. 85pts for an MC troop choice, 40pts for a T5 S5 W3 troop, 35pts for 10 S4 T3 chaff)

A Nidzilla list seems like the best option but the problem is that the troop section went from good to bad. You could try for the old Term/Tervigon troops but that would cost you at least 100pts more than it did in 5E. Genestealers still die like overpriced guardsmen, warriors die to S8 like they have for years, hormagaunts die worse than guardsmen in CC and with no rerolls they might as well be guardsmen without guns, and rippers are still rippers but more expensive.

The new stuff looks cool so I guess the best option would be to go 2 groups of 10 termagants to keep more points open for MCs and FMCs.

In a slight glimmer of hope/fairness to warriors, hasn't the meta now favored S7 weapons to S8 considerably? For example, Tau always take missile broadsides instead of rail broadsides. SM rarely if ever take MLs now.

Perhaps they maybe some staying power for warriors???

There are a number of small mechanics that I have trouble with.. One being a Carnifex at Str-9. What is the point now the MC's have smash?

90% of things you will wound on a 2+ with Str 6 and if you encounter a tank or a MC you will just use your 3 smash attacks anyway.

A Str-6 Carnifex at 10-15 points lower would be significantly better.

I understand doubling out T 4 but 2 x wound T4 people have invuns...

Things like that make me feel like im paying lots of points for not much actual benefit.

bodazoka wrote:
There are a number of small mechanics that I have trouble with.. One being a Carnifex at Str-9. What is the point now the MC's have smash?

90% of things you will wound on a 2+ with Str 6 and if you encounter a tank or a MC you will just use your 3 smash attacks anyway.

A Str-6 Carnifex at 10-15 points lower would be significantly better.

I understand doubling out T 4 but 2 x wound T4 people have invuns...

Things like that make me feel like im paying lots of points for not much actual benefit.

Tradition. Carnifexes have always been S9 or S10. Smash really it just another slap in their face in 6th edition really.

bodazoka wrote:
There are a number of small mechanics that I have trouble with.. One being a Carnifex at Str-9. What is the point now the MC's have smash?

90% of things you will wound on a 2+ with Str 6 and if you encounter a tank or a MC you will just use your 3 smash attacks anyway.

A Str-6 Carnifex at 10-15 points lower would be significantly better.

I understand doubling out T 4 but 2 x wound T4 people have invuns...

Things like that make me feel like im paying lots of points for not much actual benefit.

I think the S9 is mostly a hold-over from previous codexes. But being S9 is fine even with smash because it means you don't have to smash to ID T4 models. So instead of 3 S10 smash attacks, you get 5 or 6 S9 attacks with the same effect. Also, it means HOW can ID T4 models too and is more likely to destroy a tank on the charge. Since Carnifexes are WS3, and Scything talons don't give rerolls, and crushing claws don't add D3 attack, you want as many attacks as possible.

Another problem. Why are all our CC MCs still only WS3? Why is the Swarmlord only WS9 and BS4 when an Avatar is WS10 BS10 and a Bloodletter (that's right, a bloodletter) is BS5? Why is our MCs only T6 or T5 while Eldar have T8 MCs?

 Carnage43 wrote:
Tradition. Carnifexes have always been S9 or S10. Smash really it just another slap in their face in 6th edition really.

Seems that way.

Honestly I don't care that people didn't get things they wanted or even that things got nerfed or removed etc.. I am positive there is a MC build in there which will be scary once the book is out.

Little things like putting in the smash mechanic and then charging you points to give a Carnifex Str9 get my goat...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 shamroll wrote:
I think the S9 is mostly a hold-over from previous codexes. But being S9 is fine even with smash because it means you don't have to smash to ID T4 models. So instead of 3 S10 smash attacks, you get 5 or 6 S9 attacks with the same effect. Also, it means HOW can ID T4 models too and is more likely to destroy a tank on the charge. Since Carnifexes are WS3, and Scything talons don't give rerolls, and crushing claws don't add D3 attack, you want as many attacks as possible.

Another problem. Why are all our CC MCs still only WS3? Why is the Swarmlord only WS9 and BS4 when an Avatar is WS10 BS10 and a Bloodletter (that's right, a bloodletter) is BS5? Why is our MCs only T6 or T5 while Eldar have T8 MCs?

Which T4 - 2 x wound models are we talking about though?

And if they dropped the Str by 1 and upped the WS to 4 you would instantly make the model worth the 120 points. Currently it is very close to being beaten by 2 x Necron Spyder's at 100 points...

 Gloomfang wrote:

SBG wrote:
Weird.

I've had great luck using Monstrous Creatures and Venomthropes, to the point of exclusivity - this book promises to make both significantly better.

I am excited. Cheaper, more options, faster, and new t6 Elite ap2 monsters to boot? This is Great News!

Also, tyrannofexen are now costed reasonably. They were usable before, but now, I think 2 of them plus 1-2 plasma bugs will be sufficient for me. It's kind of like when I go to the games store; lumber to the objective slowly then get in everyone's way until they devote enough resources or firepower to get rid of me.

Wait, what?

Nidzilla is a good way to go honestly. You just need to figure out how to deal with things that ignore cover, are AP3 (no more 2+ saves for MCs) or cause ID.

Not being snarky, its the list I am looking at making. That or flying circus.

That's the great thing about the T-fex, being a 2+ save. I'm thinking of running 3 of them, hopefully with catalyst support.

I hope they didn't lose that save, now that I think about it... uh-oh.

---

They still have a 2+. But they have to buy the extra thorax template - which I'm OK with.

 shamroll wrote:
ls too and is more likely to destroy a tank on the charge. Since Carnifexes are WS3, and Scything talons don't give rerolls, and crushing claws don't add D3 attack, you want as many attacks as possible.

Another problem. Why are all our CC MCs still only WS3? Why is the Swarmlord only WS9 and BS4 when an Avatar is WS10 BS10 and a Bloodletter (that's right, a bloodletter) is BS5? Why is our MCs only T6 or T5 while Eldar have T8 MCs?

I'd say the answer to this question is internal balance. The stats of a unit is not compared to the stats of a similar unit from a different dex, its balanced to be level with the army rules, supporting units and general playtheme in our own dex to create hopefully one all around balanced product.

Unfortunately, they have failed horribly at internal balance on this dex. Why was this allowed to go through? Feels like it was written by someone who has never played Nids before, and just decided "oh well Hormagants and Lictors don't see much play hmm lets give them small buffs I'm sure this will make them usable, Tervigon sees a lot of play well we better nerf that one slightly, Tyranids are in desperate need of anti-air so lets drop some points off the Flyrant, oh look a bunch of people saying they want models for everything in the dex, so lets just fix that for them by wiping everything that doesn't have a model from the Codex that'll put a grin on their face, now it's important to the people that Tyranid rules reflect that they are their own entity for another galaxy so we'll lock em into their very own unique psyker table that no other race can get. how cool is that? Damn it this feels good, just being here to provide for the fans"

Whether or not it's the strongest or weakest 6E codex out yet is to be seen, but it's without a doubt hands down the least thought-out most badly conceived one yet.

Sooo.....after reading tons of posts on various forums, looking over various scans (including the spanish ones).

Overall, there are some good things, a lot of "meh" things, and a lot of not so good things.

I have a feeling that in the end, some things will be a little better than we thought, and it will take a while for some combos to form, and in the end, things will prolly be somewhat better than they are now.

BUT...
What are we missing?

The special rules on synapse and shadows?
Details on if ANY psykers can take BRB powers?
(have not seen the entries for zoeys, for example).

Is there anything we have not seen? Any biomorph, or weapon or something? Is there a bit "you have to see the whole codex" piece of information.

For example, the eldar did not get good until people saw the psychic powers and understood what serpent shields and battle focus did. Of course, then they read scatter lasers and bladestorm...and those little morsels changed perspective quite a bit.

So, what are we missing? Is there a reference there we don't know yet?

Or is that just fleeting hope...

I wonder what Brass Angel's opinion on these latest developments are.

What if there were some simple addendum, like: "Adaptive Defense: All Tyranid models ignore any wounds taken on a roll of 3+".

Maybe slightly OP.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I wonder what Brass Angel's opinion on these latest developments are.

Yeah where is he? He banned or something?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I wonder what Brass Angel's opinion on these latest developments are.

I'm sure we have to wait at least 2 months before our brains could possibly be capable of digesting the information we've been given, only then we are allowed to cast judgement upon the facts at hand.

I don't even know what that guy was doing in a "News & Rumours" thread if people were not allowed to judge the news and rumours, but I won't lie I'm glad that he's stopped posting that "b-b-but, Eldar dex" crap here, even if only temporarily.

davethepak wrote:
Sooo.....after reading tons of posts on various forums, looking over various scans (including the spanish ones).

Overall, there are some good things, a lot of "meh" things, and a lot of not so good things.


Is there anything we have not seen? Any biomorph, or weapon or something? Is there a bit "you have to see the whole codex" piece of information.

For example, the eldar did not get good until people saw the psychic powers and understood what serpent shields and battle focus did. Of course, then they read scatter lasers and bladestorm...and those little morsels changed perspective quite a bit.

So, what are we missing? Is there a reference there we don't know yet?

Or is that just fleeting hope...

Fleeting hope, there is no new special rules detailed for anything that I have seen.

Will adrenal gland be worth putting on a cc flyrant?

No, we know pretty much the whole codex at this point.

to answer your questions.

No BRB powers for anyone in the codex.

Zoens are a brother hood of psykers with ML2. they use the power as a brood. warp blast and one random power. warp blast is A:X where X is number of members in the brood.

for real fun no more tervigon buffs. oh and there is something like a 25% chance your termigaunts will break and run every turn they are out of synapse for now good reason. Imagine a 120pt unit you are using to hold a backfeild objective running off the board because the babysitter got gaked.

POW! right in the babymaker.

I agree with the 'wait & look at the whole codex in context' point of view.

So far GW haven't released a poor codex. I think AS is closest to this but is still really fun if not top tier. Everything after DA anyhow. I think...

I want fun. I dream for top tier. Plus top tier is a wider context anyway, as a further codex release may change the meta in favour of Tyranids,

If you think GW hasn't released a poor codex you're literally deluding yourself and I don't know what to say that will convince you otherwise that hasn't already been said somewhere else in this thread.

Venom Cannons got better. Same stats but no vehicle damage penalty it seems. I wouldn't mind fielding Harpys.

plenty of good stuff in the codex... haters gonna hate

Biovores gained 1 wound 1 A and 1I while price went down 5 points a model.

Blurry picture of spore mines indicate they have a 3" move and can run or charge with the distance halved, random direction tossed out the window, and one spore mine of the nid players choice explodes at I10. Additional spore mines increases the str of the blast by 1 per mine.

yeah the biovores got a nice buff, for sure. spore mines nearly useful, that came from way out of left field.

easysauce wrote:plenty of good stuff in the codex... haters gonna hate

Sure, dismiss people who are critical as haters hating. How about you back up your statement, so you don't come across as obtuse?

dumbuket wrote:

Like, why is the prime 35 more points? WHY?

I participated in one of those 'Tournament of Champions' evenings. 150pt characters fighting one on one. One battle was my Prime Warrior against a GK Captain. The GK player was gobsmacked when he lost one of the three rounds. He expressed his amazement that Nids had anything 'that powerful in assault'.

 Carnage43 wrote:

Tradition. Carnifexes have always been S9 or S10. .