pretre wrote: No big surprise for anyone, I'm sure, but Nidmageddon for Rumor Mongers continues.
Larry Vela and Natfka are putting up some pretty impressive numbers of FALSEs for this release. Larry, in particular, bet a lot on this one and lost big.
That guy who said he talked to someone over Vassal (Tyren) was obviously full of it as well. I think he's at 31 False and 5 True right now.
Isn't there a chance that instead of them being "full of it" that they have been misinformed on purpose to root out rumor mongers on GW's inside? Larry has always been pretty accurate on other releases hasn't he? Natfka was wrong on a lot of accounts, but some proved to be true. I really think these rumor mongers are getting sniped by people in the know by giving them false rumors. GW is getting much better at keeping a lid on things and I bet a lot of the reasons why some of our rumor mongers were wrong is because they have been fed false information.
Not exactly...It is an additional attack after all. Also for carnifex broods you must factor in the D3 hammer of wrath hits (average 2) that don't even need to roll to-hit. So a fex drops down to 3 base attacks, but with 2x scytals and will get 5 attacks on the charge, plus a tail attack, plus D3 hammer of wrath all at s9 or s8.
Not bad for ~130 points.
Just keep in mind tail attacks are extra points (don't come stock) and are not resolved at the fex's strength or with AP2.
Correct me if I'm wrong, I do not have my codex yet, but Carnifex has the tail weapon now, that plus s talons and hvc Would result in 2 extra attacks, one for 2 cc weapons (tail and s talons) and the additional tail profile. 5 attacks if charged and 6 if charging.
Tail attacks are not considered an CC weapon and do not count towards extra CC weapons. If you have a gun there is no way to get +1A from a second set of CC weapons (except raveners).
Not exactly...It is an additional attack after all. Also for carnifex broods you must factor in the D3 hammer of wrath hits (average 2) that don't even need to roll to-hit. So a fex drops down to 3 base attacks, but with 2x scytals and will get 5 attacks on the charge, plus a tail attack, plus D3 hammer of wrath all at s9 or s8.
Not bad for ~130 points.
Just keep in mind tail attacks are extra points (don't come stock) and are not resolved at the fex's strength or with AP2.
Correct me if I'm wrong, I do not have my codex yet, but Carnifex has the tail weapon now, that plus s talons and hvc Would result in 2 extra attacks, one for 2 cc weapons (tail and s talons) and the additional tail profile. 5 attacks if charged and 6 if charging.
Tail attacks are not considered an CC weapon and do not count towards extra CC weapons. If you have a gun there is no way to get +1A from a second set of CC weapons (except raveners).
Does the tail weapon rules say they are always resolved with the ap shown on the profile?
3 stock +1 for Scytals +1 charging +1 solo tail attack.
I am certain he does not mean total. A fex with Scything Talons + Heavy Venom Cannon would have 3 base and 1 tail. +1 for charging if relevant.
Almost, I thought that the tail counts as a cc weapon for the purpose of calculating the + 1 for two cc weapons.
Screamerfexes with tails and adrenals would clock at...165?
That sounds solid...or skip the plasma...to each their own.
I think the trap with Fexes is that it's really easy to make them overkill. By the time you add up all the S9 HoW hits, S9/10 attacks, tails, and plasma shots (they need to be fired at the target you're going to charge, from within charge range), you may well be left swinging wildly at a burning crater in the ground. Plus, in some situations isn't is best to not totally wipe out the opposing unit so your Fexes are safely locked in combat for a turn?
I'd be more inclined to go with bare minimum loadouts (dual-devs or AG and frag spines) and use the points saved from plasma/tails/etc to simply get more MCs, or units to support them (Synapse/Venomthropes/Psykers).
1. Does Regeneration actually give you a 4+ to regain a wound at the end of every player turn (like the reference page would suggest)? Or is it just a 4+ IWND, meaning it's only at the end of your turn?
2. How do the Hive Tyrant upgrades work (Hive Commander, Indescribable Horror, etc)? I know they're all much cheaper.
1 - No. From the actual scan of the full description biomorphs, page 67 "At the end of each friendly turn... "
2 - Hive tyrant, from the actual scan of the critter;
Hive commander - "For each hive tyrant in your army with this upgrade, select a single troop selection from the same detachment. All models in that selected unit gain the Outflank special rule".
Indescribable Horror - "Units taking a fear test caused by this model must roll an extra dice when taking the test and use the highest two results. In most circumstances, this will mean that the unit rolls 3d6 and discards the lowest dice roll "
I find hive commander fascinating, as there is the direct implication (for the most part they are very careful with wording in the book...) of us getting additional detachments, either via dataslates, expansions, supplments...etc.
xttz wrote: I think the trap with Fexes is that it's really easy to make them overkill. By the time you add up all the S9 HoW hits, S9/10 attacks, tails, and plasma shots (they need to be fired at the target you're going to charge, from within charge range), you may well be left swinging wildly at a burning crater in the ground. Plus, in some situations isn't is best to not totally wipe out the opposing unit so your Fexes are safely locked in combat for a turn?
I'd be more inclined to go with bare minimum loadouts (dual-devs or AG and frag spines) and use the points saved from plasma/tails/etc to simply get more MCs, or units to support them (Synapse/Venomthropes/Psykers).
A very solid point...but then again, bio plasma has never been about effectiveness...just pure cool factor...nothing feels more godzilla like than breathing plasma down on the enemy.
I personally see myself running adrenals and tails or guns.
I personally like that you have to choose the purpose for your beast...very "tyranid-y"
Draknaul wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, I do not have my codex yet, but Carnifex has the tail weapon now, that plus s talons and hvc Would result in 2 extra attacks, one for 2 cc weapons (tail and s talons) and the additional tail profile. 5 attacks if charged and 6 if charging.
Tail weapons do not interact in any way with anything else the model has, except it's Initiative stat.
Not exactly...It is an additional attack after all. Also for carnifex broods you must factor in the D3 hammer of wrath hits (average 2) that don't even need to roll to-hit. So a fex drops down to 3 base attacks, but with 2x scytals and will get 5 attacks on the charge, plus a tail attack, plus D3 hammer of wrath all at s9 or s8.
Not bad for ~130 points.
D3 Hammer of Wrath is a joke. Even 3 hits isn't enough to kill 1 marine since they don't ignore armor. I honestly can't believe anyone is taking them seriously. They are good against vehicles and that is pretty much all.
I personally see myself running adrenals and tails or guns.
I personally like that you have to choose the purpose for your beast...very "tyranid-y"
The return of the Godfex is welcome, but I remember how pricy those builds got fast. Running mine with AG only, may bioplasma in old school SK style. Of course I only have old school SK models. Glad I have enough for a brood.
Draknaul wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, I do not have my codex yet, but Carnifex has the tail weapon now, that plus s talons and hvc Would result in 2 extra attacks, one for 2 cc weapons (tail and s talons) and the additional tail profile. 5 attacks if charged and 6 if charging.
Tail weapons do not interact in any way with anything else the model has, except it's Initiative stat.
Not exactly...It is an additional attack after all. Also for carnifex broods you must factor in the D3 hammer of wrath hits (average 2) that don't even need to roll to-hit. So a fex drops down to 3 base attacks, but with 2x scytals and will get 5 attacks on the charge, plus a tail attack, plus D3 hammer of wrath all at s9 or s8.
Not bad for ~130 points.
D3 Hammer of Wrath is a joke. Even 3 hits isn't enough to kill 1 marine since they don't ignore armor. I honestly can't believe anyone is taking them seriously. They are good against vehicles and that is pretty much all.
I live in a world where marines don't *always* make their 3+ save. Every wound caused is a chance to kill a model.
Draknaul wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, I do not have my codex yet, but Carnifex has the tail weapon now, that plus s talons and hvc Would result in 2 extra attacks, one for 2 cc weapons (tail and s talons) and the additional tail profile. 5 attacks if charged and 6 if charging.
Tail weapons do not interact in any way with anything else the model has, except it's Initiative stat.
Not exactly...It is an additional attack after all. Also for carnifex broods you must factor in the D3 hammer of wrath hits (average 2) that don't even need to roll to-hit. So a fex drops down to 3 base attacks, but with 2x scytals and will get 5 attacks on the charge, plus a tail attack, plus D3 hammer of wrath all at s9 or s8.
Not bad for ~130 points.
D3 Hammer of Wrath is a joke. Even 3 hits isn't enough to kill 1 marine since they don't ignore armor. I honestly can't believe anyone is taking them seriously. They are good against vehicles and that is pretty much all.
I live in a world where marines don't *always* make their 3+ save. Every wound caused is a chance to kill a model.
It's a 2+ to wound as well, and can Insta-gib most marine characters. I say D3 auto S9 hits is pretty scary.
Draknaul wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, I do not have my codex yet, but Carnifex has the tail weapon now, that plus s talons and hvc Would result in 2 extra attacks, one for 2 cc weapons (tail and s talons) and the additional tail profile. 5 attacks if charged and 6 if charging.
Tail weapons do not interact in any way with anything else the model has, except it's Initiative stat.
Not exactly...It is an additional attack after all. Also for carnifex broods you must factor in the D3 hammer of wrath hits (average 2) that don't even need to roll to-hit. So a fex drops down to 3 base attacks, but with 2x scytals and will get 5 attacks on the charge, plus a tail attack, plus D3 hammer of wrath all at s9 or s8.
Not bad for ~130 points.
D3 Hammer of Wrath is a joke. Even 3 hits isn't enough to kill 1 marine since they don't ignore armor. I honestly can't believe anyone is taking them seriously. They are good against vehicles and that is pretty much all.
I live in a world where marines don't *always* make their 3+ save. Every wound caused is a chance to kill a model.
I live in a world of statistics. If something doesn't perform reliably, it's a liability. 3 hits is enough to *probably* kill one marine, but it's d3 not 3, meaning you can't reliably kill *one* marine.
ductvader wrote: Who is the world is sending Carnifexes after marines?
What bug player is even worried about killing marines?
Does it really need to be explained that MEQs are used as a standard unit in 40k, given that the majority of units have MEQ stats and are considered the gold standard? Do you really think you are smart pointing this out?
streamdragon wrote: One playing against Space Marines? Not sure what you're getting at here.
He means why send a unit like the carnifex against infantry when it could be eating tanks. Leave infantry to gaunts and gants. Then again, it is pretty hilarious watching a bunch of marines run away from a giant roach
streamdragon wrote: One playing against Space Marines? Not sure what you're getting at here.
He means why send a unit like the carnifex against infantry when it could be eating tanks. Leave infantry to gaunts and gants.
Because there is always a tank in range right? It's not like they move faster than carnifex right? It's not like there are any infantry that you need strong AP2 attacks against either right? No, the carnifex is only for eating tanks and should always be chasing down tanks.
streamdragon wrote: One playing against Space Marines? Not sure what you're getting at here.
He means why send a unit like the carnifex against infantry when it could be eating tanks. Leave infantry to gaunts and gants.
Then again, it is pretty hilarious watching a bunch of marines run away from a giant roach
The move away from transports in 6e (or at least, I've heard there was a move away from transports), leaves some units footslogging. Infantry might also be the only thing in range. I mean, I get the idea that Fexes are better off dealing with things other than Tac marines, but when your Fexers are a hammer, everything on the other side looks a lot like nails.
ductvader wrote: Who is the world is sending Carnifexes after marines?
What bug player is even worried about killing marines?
Does it really need to be explained that MEQs are used as a standard unit in 40k, given that the majority of units have MEQ stats and are considered the gold standard? Do you really think you are smart pointing this out?
MEQs aren't the standard right now though...they're pretty far from it actually.
Well since fexes move 6" and have no way to outflank, infiltrate, or deep strike, it's very easy to put marines in front of a valuable tank or a rhino in front of valuable marines.
People are missing a lot of the impact of removing spore pod options as well as not providing new deployment or movement solutions.
A walking CC army is the easiest to counter because you just decide which of your units aren't needed to complete the mission, and send them to block the advancing bugs. They assault the sacrificial unit, win, and are left in the open to take more shooting.
streamdragon wrote: One playing against Space Marines? Not sure what you're getting at here.
Carnifexes go after big targets, Forts, tanks, artillary, high toughness targets.
Trying to state that a weapon doesn't reliably kill a target it's not meant for makes little sense.
Bolters must be terrible because they can't kill Land Raiders...
Bolters aren't terrible because they fit the job they were made for.
D3 HoW hits doesn't really fit the job the carnifex was made for. It already walks over tanks in CC. Making it do more of that doesn't make it a much better unit. It doesn't help against high toughness models because they have an armor save. It doesn't help the carnifex catch tanks either, which is it's biggest problem as a CC unit. If you are taking a CC carnifex as an anti-tank option, you are doing something wrong.
davethepak wrote: Hive tyrant, from the actual scan of the critter;
Hive commander - "For each hive tyrant in your army with this upgrade, select a single troop selection from the same detachment. All models in that selected unit gain the Outflank special rule".
Indescribable Horror - "Units taking a fear test caused by this model must roll an extra dice when taking the test and use the highest two results. In most circumstances, this will mean that the unit rolls 3d6 and discards the lowest dice roll "
I find hive commander fascinating, as there is the direct implication (for the most part they are very careful with wording in the book...) of us getting additional detachments, either via dataslates, expansions, supplments...etc.
Another one I cant comprehend is that they left the Trygon tunnel. Has anyone ever, EVER used it or planned a game on using it? Surely they didnt test it out.
pretre wrote: No big surprise for anyone, I'm sure, but Nidmageddon for Rumor Mongers continues.
Larry Vela and Natfka are putting up some pretty impressive numbers of FALSEs for this release. Larry, in particular, bet a lot on this one and lost big.
That guy who said he talked to someone over Vassal (Tyren) was obviously full of it as well. I think he's at 31 False and 5 True right now.
Isn't there a chance that instead of them being "full of it" that they have been misinformed on purpose to root out rumor mongers on GW's inside? Larry has always been pretty accurate on other releases hasn't he? Natfka was wrong on a lot of accounts, but some proved to be true. I really think these rumor mongers are getting sniped by people in the know by giving them false rumors. GW is getting much better at keeping a lid on things and I bet a lot of the reasons why some of our rumor mongers were wrong is because they have been fed false information.
It is entirely possible. Larry has never been terribly accurate though and Natfka just doesn't know how to filter things out. He posts everything.
Either way, whether they are making crud up or just being fed bad info, that means they are not good sources. Contrast them with some of the mongers with good records, who are obviously not making stuff and have good sources (or just know how to tell crap from gold).
davethepak wrote: Hive tyrant, from the actual scan of the critter;
Hive commander - "For each hive tyrant in your army with this upgrade, select a single troop selection from the same detachment. All models in that selected unit gain the Outflank special rule".
Indescribable Horror - "Units taking a fear test caused by this model must roll an extra dice when taking the test and use the highest two results. In most circumstances, this will mean that the unit rolls 3d6 and discards the lowest dice roll "
I find hive commander fascinating, as there is the direct implication (for the most part they are very careful with wording in the book...) of us getting additional detachments, either via dataslates, expansions, supplments...etc.
Nice observation! (That last sentence)
Very, very interesting possibility...
Or it's relating to double FOC lists? I see no direct implication of anything, honestly. Lots of special rules target only units from the same detachment.
streamdragon wrote: HQ Choices Hive Tyrant: -5 PPM; +1BS; Loses BRB powers; lost 2+ armor save option; loses starting Lashwhip/Bonesword (this upgrade now costs 20 points I think)
SwarmLord: +5 PPM; +1BS; +1 Mastery Level -1 psychic power; Loses BRB Powers; no longer forces rerolls of successful ++ saves
Tervigon: +35 PPM; +1 I; -2 Powers; Loses BRB Powers; no longer shares AG/TS; kills larger area of gaunts; spawns gaunts no longer move or charge
Tyranid Prime: +45 PPM
Deathleaper: now HQ from Elites; -10 PPM; gain Infiltrate; Fleshhooks lose Rending
Old One Eye: now HQ from HS; -40 PPM; +1I
Elite Choices Hive Guard: +5 PPM; -1BS
Lictor: -15 PPM; gain Infiltrate
Pyrovore: -5 PPM; +1W, I, A; No more Spores
Venomthrope: -10 PPM; Gains Shroud instead of default 5+c save; No more Spores
Zoanthrope: -10 PPM; Mastery Level 2; Loses BRB powers; No more Spores; Now Brotherhood of Psykers (not sure if this is a gain or loss, honestly; makes the whole unit very "all or nothing")
Troop Choices Tyranid Warriors: +/- 0 PPM; No more Spores
Genestealers: +/- 0 PPM; No more Spores
--Broodlord: +/- 0 PPM; Single default power (positive or negative is up for debate I suppose)
Termagants: -1 PPM; can mix weapon types within a unit; No more Spores; cost of TS/AG increased
Hormagaunts: -1 PPM; No more Spores; STs no longer reroll 1s/misses; cost of TS/AG increased
Ripper Swarms: +3 PPM; No longer guaranteed self destruct out of Synapse
Fast Attack Shrikes: +/- 0 PPM
Harpy: -25 PPM; +1W, A
Gargoyles: +/- 0 PPM
Sky Slasher Swarms: +3 PPM
Raveners: +/- 0 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWsSTs no longer reroll 1s/misses
Spore Mine Clusters: -5 PPM
Heavy Support Carnifex: -40 PPM, +1I; -1A; No more Spores
Biovore: -5 PPM; +1W, I, A
Trygon: -10 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWs; STs no longer reroll 1s/misses
Trygon Prime: -10 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWs; STs no longer reroll 1s/misses
Mawloc: -30 PPM; better From Below rule
Tyranofex: -75! PPM; +1I
Biomorphs -General-
Adrenal Glands: Grants Fleet along with Furious Charge
Toxin Sacs: No changes
Regeneration: Regain a wound on a 4+ instead of 6(I believe?)
-Melee-
Scything Talons: Grants extra attack with another CC biomorph; AP6 (lolz); No longer reroll 1s/misses
Rending Claws: Grants extra attack with another CC biomorph; AP5
Crushing Claws: Grants extra attack with another CC biomorph; No longer forces I1 for MCs; S+1; Armorbane; AP2 for non MCs; Lost D3 bonus attacks
-Ranged-
Devourer: No longer causes -1 to Ld
edit 1: Updated Swarmlord to +1ML, -1 power known
edit 2: Updated for lack of Spores
edit 3: Points adjustments and effects of some biomorphs.
ductvader wrote: Who is the world is sending Carnifexes after marines?
What bug player is even worried about killing marines?
Does it really need to be explained that MEQs are used as a standard unit in 40k, given that the majority of units have MEQ stats and are considered the gold standard? Do you really think you are smart pointing this out?
They really aren't. MEQs are only adequate and should no longer be considered the "gold standard" when everything can kill them rather easily. Eldar and Tau have easily replaced SM as the army to beat, and Tactical Marines are no longer amazing troops. Not that they were in the first place, though.
streamdragon wrote: HQ Choices Hive Tyrant: -5 PPM; +1BS; Loses BRB powers; lost 2+ armor save option; loses starting Lashwhip/Bonesword (this upgrade now costs 20 points I think)
SwarmLord: +5 PPM; +1BS; +1 Mastery Level -1 psychic power; Loses BRB Powers; no longer forces rerolls of successful ++ saves
Tervigon: +35 PPM; +1 I; -2 Powers; Loses BRB Powers; no longer shares AG/TS; kills larger area of gaunts; spawns gaunts no longer move or charge
Tyranid Prime: +45 PPM
Deathleaper: now HQ from Elites; -10 PPM; gain Infiltrate; Fleshhooks lose Rending
Old One Eye: now HQ from HS; -40 PPM; +1I
Elite Choices Hive Guard: +5 PPM; -1BS
Lictor: -15 PPM; gain Infiltrate
Pyrovore: -5 PPM; +1W, I, A; No more Spores
Venomthrope: -10 PPM; Gains Shroud instead of default 5+c save; No more Spores
Zoanthrope: -10 PPM; Mastery Level 2; Loses BRB powers; No more Spores; Now Brotherhood of Psykers (not sure if this is a gain or loss, honestly; makes the whole unit very "all or nothing")
Troop Choices Tyranid Warriors: +/- 0 PPM; No more Spores
Genestealers: +/- 0 PPM; No more Spores
--Broodlord: +/- 0 PPM; Single default power (positive or negative is up for debate I suppose)
Termagants: -1 PPM; can mix weapon types within a unit; No more Spores; cost of TS/AG increased
Hormagaunts: -1 PPM; No more Spores; STs no longer reroll 1s/misses; cost of TS/AG increased
Ripper Swarms: +3 PPM; No longer guaranteed self destruct out of Synapse
Fast Attack Shrikes: +/- 0 PPM
Harpy: -25 PPM; +1W, A
Gargoyles: +/- 0 PPM
Sky Slasher Swarms: +3 PPM
Raveners: +/- 0 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWsSTs no longer reroll 1s/misses
Spore Mine Clusters: -5 PPM
Heavy Support Carnifex: -40 PPM, +1I; -1A; No more Spores
Biovore: -5 PPM; +1W, I, A
Trygon: -10 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWs; STs no longer reroll 1s/misses
Trygon Prime: -10 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWs; STs no longer reroll 1s/misses
Mawloc: -30 PPM; better From Below rule
Tyranofex: -75! PPM; +1I
Biomorphs -General-
Adrenal Glands: Grants Fleet along with Furious Charge
Toxin Sacs: No changes
Regeneration: Regain a wound on a 4+ instead of 6(I believe?)
-Melee-
Scything Talons: Grants extra attack with another CC biomorph; AP6 (lolz); No longer reroll 1s/misses
Rending Claws: Grants extra attack with another CC biomorph; AP5
Crushing Claws: Grants extra attack with another CC biomorph; No longer forces I1 for MCs; S+1; Armorbane; AP2 for non MCs; Lost D3 bonus attacks
-Ranged-
Devourer: No longer causes -1 to Ld
edit 1: Updated Swarmlord to +1ML, -1 power known
edit 2: Updated for lack of Spores
edit 3: Points adjustments and effects of some biomorphs.
Thanks for the repost. Wish I had an actual codex so I could finalize it, but I think it shows enough good information about units going from 5e to 6e.
I really, really wish this release was stronger than it is. I have a ton of Nids going back to OG space hulk genestealers (in original blue plastic, because I am the worst and slowest painter ever), so I would love a reason to dust them off and add to the force. Sadly, I'm not really seeing enough incentive to switch from any of my other armies.
davethepak wrote: Hive tyrant, from the actual scan of the critter;
Hive commander - "For each hive tyrant in your army with this upgrade, select a single troop selection from the same detachment. All models in that selected unit gain the Outflank special rule".
Indescribable Horror - "Units taking a fear test caused by this model must roll an extra dice when taking the test and use the highest two results. In most circumstances, this will mean that the unit rolls 3d6 and discards the lowest dice roll "
I find hive commander fascinating, as there is the direct implication (for the most part they are very careful with wording in the book...) of us getting additional detachments, either via dataslates, expansions, supplments...etc.
Nice observation! (That last sentence)
Very, very interesting possibility...
What? Not even close. Are you aware how many other codices have wording like that? I suppose we can also infer that Space Marines are getting a new supplement and/or Dataslate soon because of how often the word detachment is used, right?
pretre wrote: No big surprise for anyone, I'm sure, but Nidmageddon for Rumor Mongers continues.
Larry Vela and Natfka are putting up some pretty impressive numbers of FALSEs for this release. Larry, in particular, bet a lot on this one and lost big.
That guy who said he talked to someone over Vassal (Tyren) was obviously full of it as well. I think he's at 31 False and 5 True right now.
Isn't there a chance that instead of them being "full of it" that they have been misinformed on purpose to root out rumor mongers on GW's inside? Larry has always been pretty accurate on other releases hasn't he? Natfka was wrong on a lot of accounts, but some proved to be true. I really think these rumor mongers are getting sniped by people in the know by giving them false rumors. GW is getting much better at keeping a lid on things and I bet a lot of the reasons why some of our rumor mongers were wrong is because they have been fed false information.
It is entirely possible. Larry has never been terribly accurate though and Natfka just doesn't know how to filter things out. He posts everything.
Either way, whether they are making crud up or just being fed bad info, that means they are not good sources. Contrast them with some of the mongers with good records, who are obviously not making stuff and have good sources (or just know how to tell crap from gold).
Very good points! I concede!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
RiTides wrote: You hear that sound, steamdragon? That's my bubble bursting
Although seriously, your posts here have been really helpful. Particularly this one listing out the changes to each unit:
streamdragon wrote: HQ Choices Hive Tyrant: -5 PPM; +1BS; Loses BRB powers; lost 2+ armor save option; loses starting Lashwhip/Bonesword (this upgrade now costs 20 points I think)
SwarmLord: +5 PPM; +1BS; +1 Mastery Level -1 psychic power; Loses BRB Powers; no longer forces rerolls of successful ++ saves
Tervigon: +35 PPM; +1 I; -2 Powers; Loses BRB Powers; no longer shares AG/TS; kills larger area of gaunts; spawns gaunts no longer move or charge
Tyranid Prime: +45 PPM
Deathleaper: now HQ from Elites; -10 PPM; gain Infiltrate; Fleshhooks lose Rending
Old One Eye: now HQ from HS; -40 PPM; +1I
Elite Choices Hive Guard: +5 PPM; -1BS
Lictor: -15 PPM; gain Infiltrate
Pyrovore: -5 PPM; +1W, I, A; No more Spores
Venomthrope: -10 PPM; Gains Shroud instead of default 5+c save; No more Spores
Zoanthrope: -10 PPM; Mastery Level 2; Loses BRB powers; No more Spores; Now Brotherhood of Psykers (not sure if this is a gain or loss, honestly; makes the whole unit very "all or nothing")
Troop Choices Tyranid Warriors: +/- 0 PPM; No more Spores
Genestealers: +/- 0 PPM; No more Spores
--Broodlord: +/- 0 PPM; Single default power (positive or negative is up for debate I suppose)
Termagants: -1 PPM; can mix weapon types within a unit; No more Spores; cost of TS/AG increased
Hormagaunts: -1 PPM; No more Spores; STs no longer reroll 1s/misses; cost of TS/AG increased
Ripper Swarms: +3 PPM; No longer guaranteed self destruct out of Synapse
Fast Attack Shrikes: +/- 0 PPM
Harpy: -25 PPM; +1W, A
Gargoyles: +/- 0 PPM
Sky Slasher Swarms: +3 PPM
Raveners: +/- 0 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWsSTs no longer reroll 1s/misses
Spore Mine Clusters: -5 PPM
Heavy Support Carnifex: -40 PPM, +1I; -1A; No more Spores
Biovore: -5 PPM; +1W, I, A
Trygon: -10 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWs; STs no longer reroll 1s/misses
Trygon Prime: -10 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWs; STs no longer reroll 1s/misses
Mawloc: -30 PPM; better From Below rule
Tyranofex: -75! PPM; +1I
Biomorphs -General-
Adrenal Glands: Grants Fleet along with Furious Charge
Toxin Sacs: No changes
Regeneration: Regain a wound on a 4+ instead of 6(I believe?)
-Melee-
Scything Talons: Grants extra attack with another CC biomorph; AP6 (lolz); No longer reroll 1s/misses
Rending Claws: Grants extra attack with another CC biomorph; AP5
Crushing Claws: Grants extra attack with another CC biomorph; No longer forces I1 for MCs; S+1; Armorbane; AP2 for non MCs; Lost D3 bonus attacks
-Ranged-
Devourer: No longer causes -1 to Ld
edit 1: Updated Swarmlord to +1ML, -1 power known
edit 2: Updated for lack of Spores
edit 3: Points adjustments and effects of some biomorphs.
Has anyone thought about combining a Miasma Cannon and Thorax Swarm of some sort on a Hive Tyrant? At range, the Miasma Cannon is just an anti-infantry Venom Cannon, but up close that's two nasty templates (and of course you can fire them both off as Overwatch too).
Can't believe quite how much GW has shot themselves in the foot with this release.
I'd be very keen to buy both the Ripper bundles from Forgeworld (I've had my eye on those models for ages), since it's so rare to get a discount on FW stuff. New Rippers would go well with the Parasite of Mortrex, which is one of my favourite Tyranid units.
Admittedly I never painted the scratchbuilt model I made of it, so it'll be easy enough to tweak it to be my Crone, I think.
And my spore pods are also unpainted, and mostly unfinished, so mashing them together into a big heap as my Tyranid Bastion could definitely work.
Anyway. Enough whining. Honest. I suspect there will be some good stuff to come out of this codex, mostly just in overwhelming the opponent with numbers of termies, hormies, and gargies (none of them upgraded, probably) to tie their infantry up while your Carnifexes advance. Anyone hiding away in the backfield gets Mawlocced. I think it could work. I don't think there are all that many viable builds here, but I do think that the few that are viable may be fun. So I don't think I'll shelve my nids just yet, but I'm not going to be buying anything other than the codex (and that, only after I've tested it out a bit).
McNinja wrote: What? Not even close. Are you aware how many other codices have wording like that? I suppose we can also infer that Space Marines are getting a new supplement and/or Dataslate soon because of how often the word detachment is used, right?
White Dwarf page 39 wrote: Codex Dataslate: Tyranid Vanguard Detailing the Tyranid organisms utilised in first-strike situations, Tyranid Vanguard is a supplement for Warhammer 40,000 that enables you to unleash a spearhead of Lictors, Genestealers, and more.
Xyptc wrote: Has anyone thought about combining a Miasma Cannon and Thorax Swarm of some sort on a Hive Tyrant? At range, the Miasma Cannon is just an anti-infantry Venom Cannon, but up close that's two nasty templates (and of course you can fire them both off as Overwatch too).
T/l devourers are almost always better, especially with the move to bs4. They even do comparable damage on overwatch, not that many units will initiate an assault on a tyrant.
Detailing the Tyranid organisms utilised in first-strike situations, Tyranid Vanguard is a supplement for Warhammer 40,000 that enables you to unleash a spearhead of Lictors, Genestealers, and more.
[/size]
ductvader wrote: Who is the world is sending Carnifexes after marines?
What bug player is even worried about killing marines?
Does it really need to be explained that MEQs are used as a standard unit in 40k, given that the majority of units have MEQ stats and are considered the gold standard? Do you really think you are smart pointing this out?
They really aren't. MEQs are only adequate and should no longer be considered the "gold standard" when everything can kill them rather easily. Eldar and Tau have easily replaced SM as the army to beat, and Tactical Marines are no longer amazing troops. Not that they were in the first place, though.
2 points:
1) Gold Standard doesn't always mean that they are the best - it just means that they are so ubiquitous that they are the yardstick by which other units are measured. This new troop is either better than or worse than MEQ or this new heavy choice is good at or bad at killing MEQ. There are a lot of things MORE valuable than gold, but it was used as the basis for the economy for so long that it became the standard.
2) What does that say about the Tyranid guys when it's pointed out that they struggle with MEQ, let alone facing against an army fielding troops with better fire power, more maneuverability etc?
I have to say - I was kind of thinking about starting up a Nidzilla list because I love the thought of huge monster rampaging across the battlefield, but this release is sounding really depressing...
ductvader wrote: Who is the world is sending Carnifexes after marines?
What bug player is even worried about killing marines?
Does it really need to be explained that MEQs are used as a standard unit in 40k, given that the majority of units have MEQ stats and are considered the gold standard? Do you really think you are smart pointing this out?
They really aren't. MEQs are only adequate and should no longer be considered the "gold standard" when everything can kill them rather easily. Eldar and Tau have easily replaced SM as the army to beat, and Tactical Marines are no longer amazing troops. Not that they were in the first place, though.
Gold standard to which everything is compared. Not top army. Jesus Christ how do I have to spell this out? What's the first question you ask when you see any weapon? "How well does this kill marines." because MEQs are about half the armies out there.
Ian Sturrock wrote: Can't believe quite how much GW has shot themselves in the foot with this release.
I'd be very keen to buy both the Ripper bundles from Forgeworld (I've had my eye on those models for ages), since it's so rare to get a discount on FW stuff. New Rippers would go well with the Parasite of Mortrex, which is one of my favourite Tyranid units.
I have a parasite of mortex for sale, cheap.
Oh, and doom, and some pods....
You know, those models that other companies made because GW didn't...and now they are getting rid of them.....coincidence?
ductvader wrote: Who is the world is sending Carnifexes after marines?
What bug player is even worried about killing marines?
Does it really need to be explained that MEQs are used as a standard unit in 40k, given that the majority of units have MEQ stats and are considered the gold standard? Do you really think you are smart pointing this out?
They really aren't. MEQs are only adequate and should no longer be considered the "gold standard" when everything can kill them rather easily. Eldar and Tau have easily replaced SM as the army to beat, and Tactical Marines are no longer amazing troops. Not that they were in the first place, though.
2 points:
1) Gold Standard doesn't always mean that they are the best - it just means that they are so ubiquitous that they are the yardstick by which other units are measured. This new troop is either better than or worse than MEQ or this new heavy choice is good at or bad at killing MEQ. There are a lot of things MORE valuable than gold, but it was used as the basis for the economy for so long that it became the standard.
2) What does that say about the Tyranid guys when it's pointed out that they struggle with MEQ, let alone facing against an army fielding troops with better fire power, more maneuverability etc?
I have to say - I was kind of thinking about starting up a Nidzilla list because I love the thought of huge monster rampaging across the battlefield, but this release is sounding really depressing...
Depends on how competitive your meta is. If you ever face guys with triple nurgle princes, forget it you'll lose 3 MCs a turn. Iyanden eldar can do something similar to MCs.
For future reference? Don't edit your double posts.
It's something to do with caching where your posts will appear as double posts, but in actuality they're not.
With that said, yeah. There's also a Tyranid Hunters Dataslate coming which is "detailing Chaplain Cassius' Tyrranic War Veterans".
Yeah for sure. I have seen a lot of edit's like this and I always go and look for the other post. I never find it though. Only the edited double post...
As for the Tyranid Hunters Dataslate, what do you all think it will contain? Maybe some of the rules from the Imperius Reavers Alien Hunters unit found in the Vidar's Fate Campaign?
NamelessBard wrote: Does anyone have an idea if you are allowed to build a list without a HQ character to be your warlord?
Are you required to take a character? It doesn't sound clear.
It's important because tervigons are no longer characters.
If a tervigon was your only HQ, do you need to take something else? Do you skip the warlord section if you just have a tervigon?
Warlords are simply the HQ choice with the highest LD. I don't believe they are actually required to be a character, it's just that the vast majority are.
Don't want my first post to be such a downer, but from the reference/profile page, it appears Brainleech Devs are only assualt 6, no longer twin-linked. Only T/L option is spinefists.
NamelessBard wrote: Does anyone have an idea if you are allowed to build a list without a HQ character to be your warlord?
Are you required to take a character? It doesn't sound clear.
It's important because tervigons are no longer characters.
If a tervigon was your only HQ, do you need to take something else? Do you skip the warlord section if you just have a tervigon?
Warlords are simply the HQ choice with the highest LD. I don't believe they are actually required to be a character, it's just that the vast majority are.
When choosing your army, you must nominate one model to be your Warlord. It is is always the HQ choice character with the highest Leadership. If several characters are tied for highest Leadership, you choose among them which is your Warlord.
I guess they could be speaking character as a descriptor rather than the special rule.
NamelessBard wrote: Does anyone have an idea if you are allowed to build a list without a HQ character to be your warlord?
Are you required to take a character? It doesn't sound clear.
It's important because tervigons are no longer characters.
If a tervigon was your only HQ, do you need to take something else? Do you skip the warlord section if you just have a tervigon?
Warlords are simply the HQ choice with the highest LD. I don't believe they are actually required to be a character, it's just that the vast majority are.
They are required to be characters.
I'd bet that it's a typo and that we'll get a release day FAQ or something like the Eldar book did.
For future reference? Don't edit your double posts.
It's something to do with caching where your posts will appear as double posts, but in actuality they're not.
With that said, yeah. There's also a Tyranid Hunters Dataslate coming which is "detailing Chaplain Cassius' Tyrranic War Veterans".
Yeah for sure. I have seen a lot of edit's like this and I always go and look for the other post. I never find it though. Only the edited double post...
As for the Tyranid Hunters Dataslate, what do you all think it will contain? Maybe some of the rules from the Imperius Reavers Alien Hunters unit found in the Vidar's Fate Campaign?
Most likely, it will be something to the effect of:
-Chaplain Cassius
-2x Sternguard OR Vanguard Veterans
-Profile changes for more variation in the units
-Preferred Enemy/Hatred: Tyranids.
NamelessBard wrote: Does anyone have an idea if you are allowed to build a list without a HQ character to be your warlord?
Are you required to take a character? It doesn't sound clear.
It's important because tervigons are no longer characters.
If a tervigon was your only HQ, do you need to take something else? Do you skip the warlord section if you just have a tervigon?
Warlords are simply the HQ choice with the highest LD. I don't believe they are actually required to be a character, it's just that the vast majority are.
When choosing your army, you must nominate one model to be your Warlord. It is is always the HQ choice character with the highest Leadership. If several characters are tied for highest Leadership, you choose among them which is your Warlord.
I guess they could be speaking character as a descriptor rather than the special rule.
Huh, learn something every day. That could definitely be an issue for the Tervigon then. RAW, if it has lost the Ch designator then it can not be your Warlord, no.
My local LGS got their shipment yesterday and had it on the shelves today. I've picked up a copy and did a quick skim over lunch. I could be a little off here, but I think my recollection is accurate. Rules for the nids start on pg.38 in the codex.
My impressions:
Oh crap :(
As far as I can tell there is no BRB psychic power selections. It's all from the codex.
Nor can I see any changes or enhancements to the army's FOC. I went over the points portion pretty fast though so I could be mistaken there.
Warriors --> most of the rumors are true. Same toughness, Same wounds, same points, 4+ save. can get fleshhooks though.
Brainleech devourer no longer gives -1 to LD.
Tervigon --> really took a beating with the nerf bat. Mastery lvl 1. can kill gaunts within 12'' now if it dies. Gaunts generated at the end of movement and cannot move or assault. This really sucks as the nids do have Catalyst as a power, but since it is a blessing it won't work for the newly generated gaunts.
For the Tervigon to be counted as a Troops choice you must have a gaunt brood of 30. I could be wrong here, but this strikes me as a blatant money grab.
Venomthrope is my favorite so far. Grants Shrouding if at least 1 friendly model from a unit is within range. Still has same poison rule. Has Lash Whips.
Lichtors and Venomthropes still operate as a single brood (i.e., must maintain coherency).
Red Terror is in along with the Swallow Whole rule.
Lash Whips add 3 to I
Boneswords have Life Leech (ID on 6+ to wound)
Scything Talons do not allow re-roll at all. In fact, you need to pairs of nid close combat weapons to get a bonus attack.
Rending claws still rend.
Before go any further, mods...if this info is inappropriate feel free to nuke it. I'll try to answer questions in a more generic fashion.
I will be interested in sitting down and digesting the book, I am sure someone smarter than I will figure it out first. However I feel that books at the level of space marine are much better and more fun than tau and eldar. When the margins between units are closer then it encourages variety without losing much effectiveness.
If I was not saving up for my Xbox I would be rebuying my tyranid army. If I made my warrior based army nwork in 5th against long fang spam I can definitely make this new book work. I think venomthropes are gonna be the stars of the book. Have the tail of giant swarms in range while the thrope hides out of Los. Plenty of synergy possibilities and with reliable boosts to Synapse making it less of a necessity
3 IB types: Lurk, Feed, Hunt. You now have to roll on a table when you are out of synapse and fail your test to see how the unit will react. While none of the results are ideal a roll of 6 is the best outcome.
Synapse does not grant EW. Range is half the range of a bolter. Units within synapse will not have to make morale checks. If a unit is within synapse before it moves it auto-regroups.
SITW. provides a negative to the enemy psykers test. Same range as synapse.
The Venomthrope cover will only apply to MODELS within that 6'' radius. So having tails of swarm units just touching that vthrope will not provide cover to the entire unit.
Finally figured out why Warrior Primes got a massive boostin cost. To make Warriors looke better as synaptic anchors. Really they always have been in groups of 3, but the the Prime was the little bit tougher and 10 points cheaper. I get the feeling GW nerfed the Prime to "improve" the Warriors.
mcgroinis wrote: The Venomthrope cover will only apply to MODELS within that 6'' radius. So having tails of swarm units just touching that vthrope will not provide cover to the entire unit.
Yep, you're right my bad. It is all friendly models within 6. But that doesn't mean the unit doesn't benefit from the rule.
mcgroinis wrote:The Venomthrope cover will only apply to MODELS within that 6'' radius. So having tails of swarm units just touching that vthrope will not provide cover to the entire unit.
As has been covered in this thread, check the wording of Shrouded. As long as a single model in the unit has Shrouded, the whole unit benefits.
barnowl wrote:Finally figured out why Warrior Primes got a massive boostin cost. To make Warriors looke better as synaptic anchors. Really they always have been in groups of 3, but the the Prime was the little bit tougher and 10 points cheaper. I get the feeling GW nerfed the Prime to "improve" the Warriors.
Probably why Tervigons took such a hit also. They want to move that shiny new Warrior box, but couldn't figure out how to buff them. End result?
mcgroinis wrote:The Venomthrope cover will only apply to MODELS within that 6'' radius. So having tails of swarm units just touching that vthrope will not provide cover to the entire unit.
As has been covered in this thread, check the wording of Shrouded. As long as a single model in the unit has Shrouded, the whole unit benefits.
barnowl wrote:Finally figured out why Warrior Primes got a massive boostin cost. To make Warriors looke better as synaptic anchors. Really they always have been in groups of 3, but the the Prime was the little bit tougher and 10 points cheaper. I get the feeling GW nerfed the Prime to "improve" the Warriors.
Probably why Tervigons took such a hit also. They want to move that shiny new Warrior box, but couldn't figure out how to buff them. End result?
NERF ALL THE THINGS! (but warriors)
This is the impression I'm getting after reading through the codex. Whether it's nid CCW, Psychic powers, Model abilities, they all seem to have taken a hit. Maybe I'm going into this expecting the worse and only seeing that, but I'm not that impressed so far.
mcgroinis wrote: The Venomthrope cover will only apply to MODELS within that 6'' radius. So having tails of swarm units just touching that vthrope will not provide cover to the entire unit.
It does. As soon as a model in a squad gets it, the Model confers it on the Unit.
Certain Tyranid character models (Swarmlord, Deathleaper, Old One Eye) each have an assigned Warlord trait. Some of which are pretty cool and fit the purpose of the model.
-Yad
Edit: This thread is huge and I haven't read up on the latest so I may very well be repeating what everyone already knows. If there is something specific you're wondering about feel free to ask and I'll try to answer appropriately.
barnowl wrote: Finally figured out why Warrior Primes got a massive boostin cost. To make Warriors looke better as synaptic anchors. Really they always have been in groups of 3, but the the Prime was the little bit tougher and 10 points cheaper. I get the feeling GW nerfed the Prime to "improve" the Warriors.
Personally I think the Prime's increase was a lot about its IC status and how useful that can be.
ergotoxin wrote: Any information if Warriors can take mixed squads again?
I'm getting lost in this thread, the first post should be updated a bit.
Are you asking if you can mix and match ranged and melee weapons within a single Warrior brood? The answer is yes. Any model can do so for basic bio-weapons and Melee Bio-weapons. Only 1 can choose from bio-cannons. Bio-morphs are taken as a whole.
Certain Tyranid character models (Swarmlord, Deathleaper, Old One Eye) each have an assigned Warlord trait. Some of which are pretty cool and fit the purpose of the model.
-Yad
Edit: This thread is huge and I haven't read up on the latest so I may very well be repeating what everyone already knows. If there is something specific you're wondering about feel free to ask and I'll try to answer appropriately.
Can you confirm if Brainleech Devs are twin-linked?
barnowl wrote: Finally figured out why Warrior Primes got a massive boostin cost. To make Warriors looke better as synaptic anchors. Really they always have been in groups of 3, but the the Prime was the little bit tougher and 10 points cheaper. I get the feeling GW nerfed the Prime to "improve" the Warriors.
Personally I think the Prime's increase was a lot about its IC status and how useful that can be.
They were always IC. Not sure what you're saying.
If a model buys Brainleach from the listing, they buy them as twin linked.
barnowl wrote: Finally figured out why Warrior Primes got a massive boostin cost. To make Warriors looke better as synaptic anchors. Really they always have been in groups of 3, but the the Prime was the little bit tougher and 10 points cheaper. I get the feeling GW nerfed the Prime to "improve" the Warriors.
Personally I think the Prime's increase was a lot about its IC status and how useful that can be.
It was always an IC. There are literally 0 direct changes to the Prime, other than an over 50% increase in cost.
Certain Tyranid character models (Swarmlord, Deathleaper, Old One Eye) each have an assigned Warlord trait. Some of which are pretty cool and fit the purpose of the model.
-Yad
Edit: This thread is huge and I haven't read up on the latest so I may very well be repeating what everyone already knows. If there is something specific you're wondering about feel free to ask and I'll try to answer appropriately.
Can you confirm if Brainleech Devs are twin-linked?
Yes they are under the Monstrous Bio-Weapons section. Brainleech doesn't do anything else except add 3 more shots and 2 points of strength to what a standard Devourer does.
mcgroinis wrote: The Venomthrope cover will only apply to MODELS within that 6'' radius. So having tails of swarm units just touching that vthrope will not provide cover to the entire unit.
One model with Shrouded confers the cover save bonus to the entire unit.
mcgroinis wrote: The Venomthrope cover will only apply to MODELS within that 6'' radius. So having tails of swarm units just touching that vthrope will not provide cover to the entire unit.
One model with Shrouded confers the cover save bonus to the entire unit.
this thread is like an existential hell... the same questions again and again, echoing into eternity.
Lol. I clicked "quote" asking for a summary since I'm work blocked, but in that time you had edited your post leaving me slightly confused.
i apologize, the latest FAQ for the nids was in January of 2013, and being the new year, forgot that it was 2014, so i mindlessly copied and pasted it thinking it was the actual most recent (as in 2014) FAQ, sorry for the confusion steamdragon
Fun Tyranid trick of the day:
Looks like SitW stacks now. If your within 12" of 3 warriors that is a -9ld for all psykers. Big buff to warriors unless they FAQ that away.
Gloomfang wrote: Fun Tyranid trick of the day:
Looks like SitW stacks now. If your within 12" of 3 warriors that is a -9ld for all psykers. Big buff to warriors unless they FAQ that away.
Wording? I find that hard to believe. It's pretty awesome, but damn that's going to piss people off.
Gloomfang wrote: Fun Tyranid trick of the day:
Looks like SitW stacks now. If your within 12" of 3 warriors that is a -9ld for all psykers. Big buff to warriors unless they FAQ that away.
No way! That would mean something really nice is in this codex!
Gloomfang wrote: Fun Tyranid trick of the day:
Looks like SitW stacks now. If your within 12" of 3 warriors that is a -9ld for all psykers. Big buff to warriors unless they FAQ that away.
O.o really? cool, that means you could potentially have them at ld 3 with a Deathleaper, would't that be fun?
Gloomfang wrote: Fun Tyranid trick of the day:
Looks like SitW stacks now. If your within 12" of 3 warriors that is a -9ld for all psykers. Big buff to warriors unless they FAQ that away.
Direct source please, either exact wording or scan.
Not being rude, but we have most of the book already, and this was not caught.
(unless this is a very ....loose..interpretation / wishlisting).
Gloomfang wrote: Fun Tyranid trick of the day: Looks like SitW stacks now. If your within 12" of 3 warriors that is a -9ld for all psykers. Big buff to warriors unless they FAQ that away.
It's actually a -3 penalty if they are within 12'' of one or more models with this rule. So wouldn't say that they do stack. Pg.38 SITW
Gloomfang wrote: Fun Tyranid trick of the day:
Looks like SitW stacks now. If your within 12" of 3 warriors that is a -9ld for all psykers. Big buff to warriors unless they FAQ that away.
It's actually a -3 penalty if they are within 12'' of one or more models with this rule. So wouldn't say that they do stack.
Gloomfang wrote: Fun Tyranid trick of the day:
Looks like SitW stacks now. If your within 12" of 3 warriors that is a -9ld for all psykers. Big buff to warriors unless they FAQ that away.
No it doesn't, someone checked the wording over at Tyranid hive.
Gloomfang wrote: Fun Tyranid trick of the day:
Looks like SitW stacks now. If your within 12" of 3 warriors that is a -9ld for all psykers. Big buff to warriors unless they FAQ that away.
No it doesn't, someone checked the wording over at Tyranid hive.
Well i hope this is sorted out soon. This is good news if true.
Gloomfang wrote: Fun Tyranid trick of the day:
Looks like SitW stacks now. If your within 12" of 3 warriors that is a -9ld for all psykers. Big buff to warriors unless they FAQ that away.
No it doesn't, someone checked the wording over at Tyranid hive.
It's because the summary page is completely terrible.
Gloomfang wrote: Fun Tyranid trick of the day:
Looks like SitW stacks now. If your within 12" of 3 warriors that is a -9ld for all psykers. Big buff to warriors unless they FAQ that away.
It's actually a -3 penalty if they are within 12'' of one or more models with this rule. So wouldn't say that they do stack. Pg.38 SITW
-Yad
That seems to clear it up, imo. Doesn't stack... (even if it had, they would've FAQ'ed it out most likely).
Lol. I clicked "quote" asking for a summary since I'm work blocked, but in that time you had edited your post leaving me slightly confused.
i apologize, the latest FAQ for the nids was in January of 2013, and being the new year, forgot that it was 2014, so i mindlessly copied and pasted it thinking it was the actual most recent (as in 2014) FAQ, sorry for the confusion steamdragon
Gloomfang wrote: Fun Tyranid trick of the day:
Looks like SitW stacks now. If your within 12" of 3 warriors that is a -9ld for all psykers. Big buff to warriors unless they FAQ that away.
Please Please let this be true.... Edit: Aaaand it has been squashed
Gloomfang wrote: Fun Tyranid trick of the day: Looks like SitW stacks now. If your within 12" of 3 warriors that is a -9ld for all psykers. Big buff to warriors unless they FAQ that away.
Please Please let this be true.... Edit: Aaaand it has been squashed
As has been covered in this thread, check the wording of Shrouded. As long as a single model in the unit has Shrouded, the whole unit benefits.
The wording on the actual rule gets me thinking that it could be FAQ'd out some-point. Do any other models in the game "emit" shrouded in this way. I know we have plenty of units, rules and gear that can give shrouded to a unit and those that join it... but does anything open it up like that. I just see someone spreading shrouded units 40" across a board and GW promptly smacking it down and limiting it to just those models next to the venom.
Be nice if they don't because it provides a much needed rule for the bugs, but don't be shocked if it does get changed.
Have the codex in my hand now woohoo just having a quick look through it.
I think down the line there will be a dataslate allowing the use of units no longer in the book, as with the Zoan page there is an entry talking about the Doom, doesn't say you can take it but would appear its not been written out.
Also looking at the hive tyrant, would seem can only take one set of twin linked devourers no a pair of them
Does a Falling Back result on the IB:feed table get changed if they fail another IB:feed test and get Seek Cover? Could be and interesting way around the weak morale of gaunts that leave synapse range......
Gloomfang wrote: Fun Tyranid trick of the day:
Looks like SitW stacks now. If your within 12" of 3 warriors that is a -9ld for all psykers. Big buff to warriors unless they FAQ that away.
Please Please let this be true.... Edit: Aaaand it has been squashed
Not true
It's only a flat -3.
-Yad
Edit: Missed your edit
Say, which units have a set Warlord trait? Got wait till work is over to get my book.... (I know the rules hurt, but I still can't help wanting it)
barnowl wrote: Does a Falling Back result on the IB:feed table get changed if they fail another IB:feed test and get Seek Cover? Could be and interesting way around the weak morale of gaunts that leave synapse range......
There is no 'Falling Back' result on the Feed table. You must take an IB test at the beginning of each of your turns if:
1.) You are out of Synapse.
and
2.) You are not Engaged, Falling Back, going to ground, or arriving from Reserves.
So yes, if you fit the criteria to roll on the table you could get a different result each time.
Kimbie wrote: Have the codex in my hand now woohoo just having a quick look through it.
Also looking at the hive tyrant, would seem can only take one set of twin linked devourers no a pair of them
Any questions do ask away
Kimbie
Are you totally sure about that?
Not true. Tyrant has 2 pairs of Scything Talons. Monstrous Bio-Weapons rule allows model to exchange any 1 pair with any of the weapons on the list. So the Tyrant can exchange each pair for a twin-linked devourer.
Trying to read between here and TTH, I forget what has been said where. TTH someone pointed out Tervigon can outflank (via HT) and spawn now. Of course it will get shot in the face, but pressure points are always good.
Souleater wrote: Can Warriors take a pair of Boneswords? What is the effect if so?
Can Tyrants take two sets of guns? Can they take e.g. a Venom Cannon and Devours!?
Thank you.
With Tyrants I would say yes you can.
Warriors - Come with a Devourer and Scything Talons, and they can take items from the basic bio weapons. As they only have one pair of ST can take a pair or boneswords OR a Lash whip and bonesword
Souleater wrote: Can Warriors take a pair of Boneswords? What is the effect if so?
Can Tyrants take two sets of guns? Can they take e.g. a Venom Cannon and Devours!?
Thank you.
Can't answer the second one but I am fairly certain the answer to the first is buried in this thread. The ID is now on a to wound roll of six and no way to change that so there would really be no point to have two. I'm 99% certain its just paired with the lashwhip now which adds +3 to your init.
Souleater wrote: Can Warriors take a pair of Boneswords? What is the effect if so?
Can Tyrants take two sets of guns? Can they take e.g. a Venom Cannon and Devours!?
Thank you.
Yes, Warriors can take 2 Boneswords. There is no additional benefit to having 2 Boneswords. Warriors can also take a Lash Whip + Bonesword. You have to have 2 pairs of Tyranid CCWs to get a +1 to your attack. Example, 2 pairs of Bonesword (4 boneswords). This cannot happen for warriors. But for Genestealers they come with Rending Claws and you can also give them Scything Talons. This gives them +1 attack and rending.
Tyrants can take 2 sets of weapons for the most part. The only exception to this is that they cannot have both a Stranglethorn Cannon and Heavy Venom cannon from the Monstrous Bio-Weapon list.
-Yad
Edit: Made a correct, warriors can take 2 boneswords.
Souleater wrote: Can Warriors take a pair of Boneswords? What is the effect if so?
Can Tyrants take two sets of guns? Can they take e.g. a Venom Cannon and Devours!?
Thank you.
Can't answer the second one but I am fairly certain the answer to the first is buried in this thread. The ID is now on a to wound roll of six and no way to change that so there would really be no point to have two. I'm 99% certain its just paired with the lashwhip now which adds +3 to your init.
Two costs you 15 points.
One and a whip is 20 points.
You buy a pair to save 5 points.
Pretty exciting, no?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Unless there is a specific entry that says two boneswords grants an extra attack, two of any single type of weapon does not grant extra attack,
buddha wrote: Can anyone confirm that a carnifex can replace both its scything talons for 2 heavy venom cannons?
Doesn't look like it. The Heavy Venom Cannon has a notation that says '1 per model'. With a further addendum that a model cannot have both a Stranglethorn Cannon and Heavy Venom Cannon.
And because you've edited no one knows what the post was. Just leave double posts alone. Dakka sorts them itself. It is just a hick up in the system
I see that now, thanks.
Here is what I posted.
Trygon Subterranean Assault: Any friendly Tyranid Infantry unit can emerge from the tunnel marker. They can only come out in turns after the Trygon deep strikes, meaning you can't deep strike the Trygon and then have a friendly unit emerge on the same turn.
Friendly units must be placed wholly within 6'' of the center of the marker, excess are removed as casualties. Can't move or charge. Can shoot or run.
Warrior Brood and Shrike Brood are nearly identical. Same base point cost for the initial unit. Same access to bio/melee weapons, same access to biomorphs.
Differences:
1.) Shrike are Jump Infantry, Warriors are not (obviously).
2.) You pay 1 point less for Adrenal Glands on the Shrikes
3.) Shrikes have a worse armor save
barnowl wrote: Finally figured out why Warrior Primes got a massive boostin cost. To make Warriors looke better as synaptic anchors. Really they always have been in groups of 3, but the the Prime was the little bit tougher and 10 points cheaper. I get the feeling GW nerfed the Prime to "improve" the Warriors.
Personally I think the Prime's increase was a lot about its IC status and how useful that can be.
It was always an IC. There are literally 0 direct changes to the Prime, other than an over 50% increase in cost.
Oh good lord.
Given the conversations *we've already had here* about synapse, VTs, Fexstars, etc. I'll let you guys figure out what I was suggesting about its utility in the new codex.
Shrikes coming down in price to the same as warriors could make them almost viable, in the same way that warriors are almost viable. That is, if you need extra synapse anyway, and you're going to be grabbing your Venomthrope cover save more often than not, why not have the guys with wings rather than the guys with armour? Admittedly you probably want mostly Gargoyles in Fast Attack, but you probably want mostly gants in Troops too.
Ian Sturrock wrote: Shrikes coming down in price to the same as warriors could make them almost viable, in the same way that warriors are almost viable. That is, if you need extra synapse anyway, and you're going to be grabbing your Venomthrope cover save more often than not, why not have the guys with wings rather than the guys with armour? Admittedly you probably want mostly Gargoyles in Fast Attack, but you probably want mostly gants in Troops too.
With the Deathleaper becoming an interesting HQ, I'm looking at ways to get synapse elsewhere in the org chart. And Shrikes are fast synapse. It's worth a shot in the right list. *shrug*
As others have already mentioned, this codex seems very disappointing. I'm not usually one to claim the sky is falling, but I have a hard time seeing a competitive list that can handle Tau and Eldar.
Loss of BRB powers, loss of a number of key units (Ymgarls, Doom), and no compensation for a complete lack of allies are pretty damning changes. Furthermore, while points were dropped on a number of units, these are often accompanied by a nerf. I've seen people writing up some horde spam lists, but who is really scared of them? 180 Termagants are cheaper, but are no longer buffed with Toxins/Adrenal by a Tervigon. Which means that they are actually more expensive for players who want to do just about anything with them besides ensuring the need to take a painkiller and ice one's lower back after the game from moving all those models.
My biggest complaint is that the book seems so bland. As others have more eloquently said, a balanced game is good for everybody--competitive and hobbyist alike. It isn't hard to make things like Warriors, Genestealers, Pyrovores, and Hormagants viable. However, when they remain completely unusable in anything but the most casual environments, everybody loses. I know that many people out there are writing off early complaints as myopic, narrow-minded, and premature. However, there are times in which a spade is a spade. Sure, almost every new release is populated with mindless complaining from the perpetually petulant. At the same time, when a ton of reasonable posters are worried, there may be fire to that smoke. I suppose time will tell...
StarHunter25 wrote: Hey Kimble, is the Swarmlord indeed entirely inferior to his 5e version?
Does he have any rules to justify his 285 point cost, or did I waste a bunch of time converting mine?
Swarmlord is still a beast in Assault, but losing the powers from the BRB certainly hurts. He still has the Bonesabers (+1 Attack, AP2, Blade Parry[4++], Instant Death). 18'' Synapse; same stats it looks like. You must add 1 to your reserves roll. Mastery lvl 3. Finally, you can either give his unit or a friendly unit within his synapse Furious Charge, Monster Hunter, or Preferred Enemy for the turn.
No EW on swarmlord then? so he's a slow 285 point 3+ save MC that will die to krak missiles in 2 turns again. Yay.... ... .......
*digs old farsight army out of his closet*
Edit: or to a unit of wraithguard who jump out of their serpent turn 1 and get easy slay the warlord/first blood/laugh as the rest of the tyranid army IB's itself off the board
StarHunter25 wrote: No EW on swarmlord then? so he's a slow 285 point 3+ save MC that will die to krak missiles in 2 turns again. Yay.... ... .......
*digs old farsight army out of his closet*
Edit: or to a unit of wraithguard who jump out of their serpent turn 1 and get easy slay the warlord/first blood/laugh as the rest of the tyranid army IB's itself off the board
Nope, no EW. Actually, I haven't seen any instance of EW anywhere in the codex yet. And it looks like there are only 3 ways to get feel no pain.
1.) Warlord Trait 'Adaptive Biology'
2.) Old One Eye can acquire FNP after suffering an unsaved wound
3.) Tyranid Psychic power - Catalyst
It really looks like you better be stocking up on Venomthropes and covering your board with terrain
-Yad
Automatically Appended Next Post: Psychic Scream:
Nova with a range of 6''. For each unit hit roll 2d6+2 minus the affected unit's LD. That unit suffers wounds equal to the result. No armor or cover save allowed.
Looking over the spore mine rules and it looks like you can actually cruise control them into a combat and detonate them if you don't care about collateral damages.
A large S9 blast against a unit you have tarpitted might be nice.
Gloomfang wrote: Looking over the spore mine rules and it looks like you can actually cruise control them into a combat and detonate them if you don't care about collateral damages.
A large S9 blast against a unit you have tarpitted might be nice.
Gloomfang wrote: Looking over the spore mine rules and it looks like you can actually cruise control them into a combat and detonate them if you don't care about collateral damages.
A large S9 blast against a unit you have tarpitted might be nice.
Gloomfang wrote: Looking over the spore mine rules and it looks like you can actually cruise control them into a combat and detonate them if you don't care about collateral damages.
A large S9 blast against a unit you have tarpitted might be nice.
S9?
Wha. . .?
Spore mines are S4+1 for each mine in the brood beyond the first. You can take them as a FA in units up to 6 and they deepstrike. So if a full unit of 6 hits it is S4+5. If it is 3 (from a biovore miss) it is S6.
Edit: Ninja'd with a screen shot. Don't know how to get it to S10 though.
So with the removal of the debuff from venom cannons, are they now a viable option again? AP4 which helps with the Tau/Eldar meta. Or is it just best to bypass it still? With all the changes to tervigons and synapse, warriors are looking better and better for backfield. Is the range of the VC worth the cost?
Gloomfang wrote: Looking over the spore mine rules and it looks like you can actually cruise control them into a combat and detonate them if you don't care about collateral damages.
A large S9 blast against a unit you have tarpitted might be nice.
S9?
Wha. . .?
Spore mines are S4+1 for each mine in the brood beyond the first. You can take them as a FA in units up to 6 and they deepstrike. So if a full unit of 6 hits it is S4+5. If it is 3 (from a biovore miss) it is S6.
Edit: Ninja'd with a screen shot. Don't know how to get it to S10 though.
If you have two units of spore mines it can go to 10. Just need to be 6 (plus the one exploding) under the template.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Backlash wrote: So with the removal of the debuff from venom cannons, are they now a viable option again? AP4 which helps with the Tau/Eldar meta. Or is it just best to bypass it still? With all the changes to tervigons and synapse, warriors are looking better and better for backfield. Is the range of the VC worth the cost?
Is there anything out there than you need S9 to deal with things with a 4+ save? Dire Avengers? Fire Warriors? Not really.
The venom cannon's best target is, ironically, things from the tyranid codex, i.e. Warriors, Raveners and Shrikes etc.
Personally , I think I'm going to like the barbed stranger.
NamelessBard wrote: If you have two units of spore mines it can go to 10. Just need to be 6 (plus the one exploding) under the template.
What in that rule allows you to combine two units to form a cluster?
Backlash wrote: So with the removal of the debuff from venom cannons, are they now a viable option again? AP4 which helps with the Tau/Eldar meta. Or is it just best to bypass it still? With all the changes to tervigons and synapse, warriors are looking better and better for backfield. Is the range of the VC worth the cost?
Is there anything out there than you need S9 to deal with things with a 4+ save? Dire Avengers? Fire Warriors? Not really.
The venom cannon's best target is, ironically, things from the tyranid codex, i.e. Warriors, Raveners and Shrikes etc.
Personally , I think I'm going to like the barbed stranger.
Given the conversations *we've already had here* about synapse, VTs, Fexstars, etc. I'll let you guys figure out what I was suggesting about its utility in the new codex.
*Hint* It's the opposite of 'less'.
Whoa now. Slow your roll. Check my post. I never said anything about less. I said that any utility he has in this codex (joining Fexes, venomthropes or whatever) he already had in the previous codex. He could join Fexes, Venomthropes or what have you already. Unless you are suggesting that lower costs for Venomthropes/Fexes somehow justifies his increase in cost, or that the worsening drawback for Synapse does so, I can't see how you can say his cost going up is in any way reasonable or related to anything in the codex other than "we* guess so".
* 'we" in this instance being the developers who decided 45 extra points for the same model and the same rules was somehow justified.
Gloomfang wrote: Looking over the spore mine rules and it looks like you can actually cruise control them into a combat and detonate them if you don't care about collateral damages.
A large S9 blast against a unit you have tarpitted might be nice.
S9?
Wha. . .?
Spore mines are S4+1 for each mine in the brood beyond the first. You can take them as a FA in units up to 6 and they deepstrike. So if a full unit of 6 hits it is S4+5. If it is 3 (from a biovore miss) it is S6.
Edit: Ninja'd with a screen shot. Don't know how to get it to S10 though.
Can you confirm if you can still deep strike Spore Mines directly onto enemy units? Or do we have to deep strike them like anything else, and then drift them into an enemy to get them to explode? Because if it's the first, then spore mines are pretty awesome. If it's the second, they are decidedly less so.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Venom Cannon (for warriors) isn't S9...
Yeah, sadly I remember people getting their hopes up when the pictures of warriors with the HVC were leaked. Looks like they are still stuck with a regular VC, despite getting the "new" bit.
Given the conversations *we've already had here* about synapse, VTs, Fexstars, etc. I'll let you guys figure out what I was suggesting about its utility in the new codex.
*Hint* It's the opposite of 'less'.
Whoa now. Slow your roll. Check my post. I never said anything about less. I said that any utility he has in this codex (joining Fexes, venomthropes or whatever) he already had in the previous codex. He could join Fexes, Venomthropes or what have you already. Unless you are suggesting that lower costs for Venomthropes/Fexes somehow justifies his increase in cost, or that the worsening drawback for Synapse does so, I can't see how you can say his cost going up is in any way reasonable or related to anything in the codex other than "we* guess so".
* 'we" in this instance being the developers who decided 45 extra points for the same model and the same rules was somehow justified.
Synapse is much more important.
Losing Synapse sucks.
Being able to hide Synapse is good.
ICs can hide.
An IC Synapse creature is significantly more valuable in this book than the last.
NamelessBard wrote: If you have two units of spore mines it can go to 10. Just need to be 6 (plus the one exploding) under the template.
What in that rule allows you to combine two units to form a cluster?
Backlash wrote: So with the removal of the debuff from venom cannons, are they now a viable option again? AP4 which helps with the Tau/Eldar meta. Or is it just best to bypass it still? With all the changes to tervigons and synapse, warriors are looking better and better for backfield. Is the range of the VC worth the cost?
Is there anything out there than you need S9 to deal with things with a 4+ save? Dire Avengers? Fire Warriors? Not really.
The venom cannon's best target is, ironically, things from the tyranid codex, i.e. Warriors, Raveners and Shrikes etc.
Personally , I think I'm going to like the barbed stranger.
The Venom Cannon (for warriors) isn't S9...
Sorry, was speaking of the HVC. For warriors, I think the Barbed stranger at S4 wins over the small blast of the venom cannon.
Given the conversations *we've already had here* about synapse, VTs, Fexstars, etc. I'll let you guys figure out what I was suggesting about its utility in the new codex.
*Hint* It's the opposite of 'less'.
Whoa now. Slow your roll. Check my post. I never said anything about less. I said that any utility he has in this codex (joining Fexes, venomthropes or whatever) he already had in the previous codex. He could join Fexes, Venomthropes or what have you already. Unless you are suggesting that lower costs for Venomthropes/Fexes somehow justifies his increase in cost, or that the worsening drawback for Synapse does so[u], I can't see how you can say his cost going up is in any way reasonable or related to anything in the codex other than "we* guess so".
* 'we" in this instance being the developers who decided 45 extra points for the same model and the same rules was somehow justified.
Synapse is much more important.
Losing Synapse sucks.
Being able to hide Synapse is good.
ICs can hide.
An IC Synapse creature is significantly more valuable in this book than the last.
Synapse still benefits us in the exact same way: Fearless and no taking IB tests.
Essentially the argument boils down to: a nerf to Synapse justifies nerfing the Prime. Think about that.
Swarmlord's Blade Parry: 4+ Invulnerable save against Melee weapons. I guess that means it also no longer works against melta-bombs and other non-Melee weapon wounds caused in close combats. Yay.
streamdragon wrote: Synapse still benefits us in the exact same way: Fearless and no taking IB tests.
Essentially the argument boils down to: a nerf to Synapse justifies nerfing the Prime. Think about that.
Correct. Making Synapse worse to be out of makes an IC Synapse more valuable.
Redemption wrote: Swarmlord's Blade Parry: 4+ Invulnerable save against Melee weapons. I guess that means it also no longer works against melta-bombs and other non-Melee weapon wounds caused in close combats. Yay.
Do Melta Bombs and the like not have Melee in their CC profile?
Not sure if this has been asked yet either, but could I potentially Deep Strike a full unit of Spore Mines on top of an enemy unit for an instant Str9 blast now?
So is the response to the new codex shared on any other communities? I know we can't be the only ones sorely disappointed, just wondering if anywhere else or any notable bloggers have expressed much annoyance about it yet.
SHUPPET wrote: So is the response to the new codex shared on any other communities? I know we can't be the only ones sorely disappointed, just wondering if anywhere else or any notable bloggers have expressed much annoyance about it yet.
Yes,
I have followed the codex threads here, warseer, bols and tyranidhive and 4chan (that was disturbing).
The reactions have been common among them.
I think its about time to close the thread .....every question and comment now, is stuff that was repeated about 40 pages ago.
Soon, we will move on to posts about possible new builds, and what can be made from the ashes of hope for a new beginning for the ned codex...
As has been covered in this thread, check the wording of Shrouded. As long as a single model in the unit has Shrouded, the whole unit benefits.
The wording on the actual rule gets me thinking that it could be FAQ'd out some-point. Do any other models in the game "emit" shrouded in this way. I know we have plenty of units, rules and gear that can give shrouded to a unit and those that join it... but does anything open it up like that. I just see someone spreading shrouded units 40" across a board and GW promptly smacking it down and limiting it to just those models next to the venom.
Be nice if they don't because it provides a much needed rule for the bugs, but don't be shocked if it does get changed.
Chaos Champions that did have Shrouded has a result from the Chaos Boons table.
Cypher who has Shrouded.
There must be a few others, but thats the only ones i know personnaly.
As has been covered in this thread, check the wording of Shrouded. As long as a single model in the unit has Shrouded, the whole unit benefits.
The wording on the actual rule gets me thinking that it could be FAQ'd out some-point. Do any other models in the game "emit" shrouded in this way. I know we have plenty of units, rules and gear that can give shrouded to a unit and those that join it... but does anything open it up like that. I just see someone spreading shrouded units 40" across a board and GW promptly smacking it down and limiting it to just those models next to the venom.
Be nice if they don't because it provides a much needed rule for the bugs, but don't be shocked if it does get changed.
Chaos Champions that did have Shrouded has a result from the Chaos Boons table.
Cypher who has Shrouded.
There must be a few others, but thats the only ones i know personnaly.
The dark angels have a fancy speeder that gives out Stealth, don't they? I'm pretty sure it's intended to work like this ,and it worked that way in the previous book too
streamdragon wrote: Synapse still benefits us in the exact same way: Fearless and no taking IB tests.
Essentially the argument boils down to: a nerf to Synapse justifies nerfing the Prime. Think about that.
Correct. Making Synapse worse to be out of makes an IC Synapse more valuable.
The nerf is to the units that fall outside of synapse. These units have not been buffed inside of synapse to reflect how terrible it is to have them out of synapse. So those units are nerfed.
The Prime has been nerfed because it can act to prevent the negative affects of the nerf on other creatures. So this unit has been nerfed.
So both sides of the synapse relationship have been nerfed, and nothing is better off (except for maybe carnifexes).
You are measuring relative value only within a codex, against other creatures who could provide synapse. Overall the change does not make sense in balance terms against opposing armies.
I've said this elsewhere, but looking into has lead me to this:
This is from poster GreatBigTree on another site, but it gets the point across.
The rules for "Blind" can be found in the 40kRB, pg 34, top right. "Any unit hit by a model or weapon with this special rule must immediately take an Initiative test." Failing that test causes the testing unit to suffer penalties. I believe this rule is open to interpretation, and that lies in one of several camps.
The first, views the rules as saying, "If a unit is hit with an attack that has the Blind characteristic, they take an [one] initiative test." This would be similar to a Pinning test, in that a unit could take multiple Pinning tests in a turn, but only one for each unit that attacked them with Blind / Pinning. This is a view in which a unit with Blind can generate two outcomes, Yes or No. If yes, take one test. If no, do not take a test.
Another views the rules as saying, "Whenever an attack from a weapon or model with the Blind characteristic hits, the unit must take a test for each model or weapon that hit". This has two outcomes for each model. Yes or No. If yes, take one test. If no, do not take a test.
A third view sees the rules as saying, "For each attack with the Blind characteristic that hits, the unit must take a test.". This has many outcomes, ranging from "No" to multiple"Yes", based on the number of attacks that hit.
Refering to the game mechanics outlined in the 40kRB, pg 13, Roll To Hit there are rules supporting the resolution of individual models' attacks. Note that the rules presented do not regard the resolution of a "unit's" shots, only individual model's shots. There is an implied suggestion to roll all attacks from one unit simultaneously to speed things along, but the rules are referring to the resolution of single models. This means that each model with a "Blinding" weapon could roll separately, and then generate a test if any of their attacks hit.
Since each model's attacks may legally be resolved individually, and the rules for Blind refer to attacks made by models / weapons, I believe the RAW supports the second view, in which each model / weapon may potentially generate up to one Blind test. Each model would need to have their "To Hit" rolls resolved separately. For example, 5 models with 10 attacks would need to roll 5 sets of two dice. Simply rolling 10 dice, and then generating a test for each hit up to a max of 5 does not correctly resolve this rule.
rabid1903 wrote: Do different types of biomorphs stack still? (e.g. rending claws and boneswords giving a 6 to wound AP 2 and instant death)
I haven't seen anything to confirm that.
No they don't. We follow the BRB rules for picking a weapon set and attacking. You do get +1A for a second set now. Basically it is all scytals are good for now.
I really dont get the complaining about the new dex. Static armies will get wiped out by S6 AP2 pieplates appearing in the middle of their blobs, fliers can be dealt with pretty damn good now, tons of ID options, nice upgrades and pretty nasty shooting. EW is missing but ok, wipe them before they wipe you. Synapse stuff seems to be less of a problem because of good M on those "loners". Time to get the themed stuff from the shelf and feast again.
Gorbad wrote: I really dont get the complaining about the new dex. Static armies will get wiped out by S6 AP2 pieplates appearing in the middle of their blobs, fliers can be dealt with pretty damn good now, tons of ID options, nice upgrades and pretty nasty shooting. EW is missing but ok, wipe them before they wipe you. Synapse stuff seems to be less of a problem because of good M on those "loners". Time to get the themed stuff from the shelf and feast again.
Static armies...gun lines...will get wiped by a 24" pie plate that moves 6"+d6 a turn? Sorry, against a Tau gun line the Exocrine is going down. Against IG? Same thing. Nothing in this new codex is good against fliers. Seriously, nothing. No skyfire except the Crone and it can only shoot two S5 Haywire missles a turn at BS 3, that isn't exactly great. What nice upgrades are there again? Regen is about it. Nasty shooting? What codex have you been reading? Seriously, I want to know.
Just downloaded the codex and this had me chuckling at least: "A Tyrannofex’s weaponry eclipses that of its foes’ most powerful battle tanks." At least they've kept it humorous.
DO ITTOIT wrote: Has anyone who preordered from Miniature Market had their stuff ship yet?
My order is sitting at "Preparing to Ship"
I guess i'm just a beer and pretzels dolt... because i'm really excited for my first 1500pts of 'Nids.
I'm plenty excited for my game on Sunday. That still doesn't mean that I can't see the numerous limitations in this codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post: infornography just discovered a nice little trick. Nothing says that spore mines from missed biovore shots can't assault the turn you place them.
I feel like some Spore Mine Cluster details are missing. Do they still explode when they touch enemy models? If so, it sounds like they no longer Deep Strike in the pre-game, so the prospect of dropping them directly onto enemy units is appealing. But if they only explode when they charge a unit, forget it.
DO ITTOIT wrote: I feel like some Spore Mine Cluster details are missing. Do they still explode when they touch enemy models? If so, it sounds like they no longer Deep Strike in the pre-game, so the prospect of dropping them directly onto enemy units is appealing. But if they only explode when they charge a unit, forget it.
They only explode in CC from what I see. Don't have my dex in front of me though. I think that they can aassault the next turn though.
I doubt you can deepstrike them directly onto a squad (though that would be cool); if you could do that, Biovores would be redundant.
What's more likely is that you have to deepstrike them away from a unit, and then drift them into the enemy where they explode in assault.
There is potential there. I don't like the cop-out of "lulz distraction unit" for arguing the merits of a unit, but in this case spores are cheap enough to really function as the ultimate distraction unit, as an opponent pretty much HAS to shoot something at them if they don't want to get hit by a strength 9 template next turn, and whatever they shoot at them will almost certainly be overkill since they're a unit of T1 W1 models. It's actually even BETTER in a TAC enviroment, because most TAC lists don't usually have throwaway units or bubblewrap units except for in their backfield.
DO ITTOIT wrote: I feel like some Spore Mine Cluster details are missing. Do they still explode when they touch enemy models? If so, it sounds like they no longer Deep Strike in the pre-game, so the prospect of dropping them directly onto enemy units is appealing. But if they only explode when they charge a unit, forget it.
They only explode in CC from what I see. Don't have my dex in front of me though. I think that they can aassault the next turn though.
1) Hive Commander granting any unit outflank is pretty powerful. Which unit is more attractive to outflank? Tyranofexr, Carnifex, Zoanthrope?
2) Do Zoanthropes still have synapse?
3) Spore mines deep strike. Even if the enemy just kills them the next turn, 30 points for a distraction of that magnitude seems cheap. Will they become auto take in the same way that Doom in a Pod was?
4) Imagine you did want to take down something like a Heldrake. Is there any reasonable way Besides Tentaclids and Vector Strikes? Hive Guard with Impaler? Dakkafexes? Warp Lance?
5) It feels like Deathleaper is the key to much awesome. I just can't figure out what. Infiltrate him, and then Deep Strike Mawlocs?
So.. spore mines are just there to use up a turn of shooting fromone squad?
Deep strike the spore mine.. it scatters onto enemy (as your trying to get it close) and you mis hap. Maybe It scatters within a few inches but then cant assault and so gets shot at next turn and dies?
And.. as its deep striking you have to reserve roll it so you cant co-ordinate multiple units of them or reliably take away any one turn of shooting from enemy units?
Ugh...
Good generals will just move away from it if it scatters away and/or shoot it with a redundant weapon that isnt in range of your other troops anyway.
tag8833 wrote: 1) Hive Commander granting any unit outflank is pretty powerful. Which unit is more attractive to outflank? Tyranofexr, Carnifex, Zoanthrope?
2) Do Zoanthropes still have synapse?
3) Spore mines deep strike. Even if the enemy just kills them the next turn, 30 points for a distraction of that magnitude seems cheap. Will they become auto take in the same way that Doom in a Pod was?
4) Imagine you did want to take down something like a Heldrake. Is there any reasonable way Besides Tentaclids and Vector Strikes? Hive Guard with Impaler? Dakkafexes? Warp Lance?
5) It feels like Deathleaper is the key to much awesome. I just can't figure out what. Infiltrate him, and then Deep Strike Mawlocs?
1. Up to you.
2. Yes
3. Up to you.
4. Flyrant?
5. Up to you.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
RiTides wrote: I though the hive commander rule only let a troop unit outflank?
Not liking that they took biomancy from swarmylord, also hive guard lost a bs which is pretty huge to me. They were one of the few solid shooty options i liked bringing. But i've only looked through the codex for a few minutes.
Is there any limit on Fortifications, and what are the rules for the three Hive Tyrant upgrades (Old Adversary, Hive Commander, etc.) I think I know everything else. Oh, and can Spore Mines assault the turn they are launched by a Biovore if they miss?
bodazoka wrote: So.. spore mines are just there to use up a turn of shooting fromone squad?
Deep strike the spore mine.. it scatters onto enemy (as your trying to get it close) and you mis hap. Maybe It scatters within a few inches but then cant assault and so gets shot at next turn and dies?
And.. as its deep striking you have to reserve roll it so you cant co-ordinate multiple units of them or reliably take away any one turn of shooting from enemy units?
Ugh...
Good generals will just move away from it if it scatters away and/or shoot it with a redundant weapon that isnt in range of your other troops anyway.
Need to clear up a few points for you.
1) No more scatter. Tyrnid player can move them at will. 1/2 movement though.
2) Shooting doesn't make them explode. They just die. You shoot one of six and 5 Are still there, just drops one off the explosion.
points cost are 5pts each up to 6 in a brood. So 30 for a full brood.
Byte wrote: Have codex. Will squawk. Sorry no scans, don't ask.
Rules for Old One Eye please!
s10, t6, w4, a4, l8(fearless) 3+ claws, talons, scythe, regen, IB feed.
Any unit unit 12" can use his leadership... yea! For every successful "to hit" roll, one additional to hit for each. No more after the first round. Basically FnP because of warlord trait.
jifel wrote: Is there any limit on Fortifications, and what are the rules for the three Hive Tyrant upgrades (Old Adversary, Hive Commander, etc.) I think I know everything else. Oh, and can Spore Mines assault the turn they are launched by a Biovore if they miss?
Old Adversary: re-rolls all failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 when fighting in close combat (so doesn't transfer to her troops, and doesn't work for shooting).
Hive Commander: can stack with multiple tyrants but no bonus to reserve roll: "for each Hive Tyrant with this upgrade, choose a single troops selection from the same detachment. All models in the selected unit gain the Outflank special rule."
Indesc Horror sounds like before: opponent rolls an extra dice for Fear test and uses highest two results.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
roxor08 wrote: Weird it wasn't a double post so here we go again:
I pre ordered the codex on iBooks...does anyone know if/when I can download the codex? How/when will I know when it's available for download?
It seemed to go up in the UK at midnight, I guess same for u, altho I'd have no idea how that is affected by the Time Zone.
jifel wrote: Is there any limit on Fortifications, and what are the rules for the three Hive Tyrant upgrades (Old Adversary, Hive Commander, etc.) I think I know everything else. Oh, and can Spore Mines assault the turn they are launched by a Biovore if they miss?
Old Adversary: re-rolls all failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 when fighting in close combat (so doesn't transfer to her troops, and doesn't work for shooting).
Hive Commander: can stack with multiple tyrants but no bonus to reserve roll: "for each Hive Tyrant with this upgrade, choose a single troops selection from the same detachment. All models in the selected unit gain the Outflank special rule."
Indesc Horror sounds like before: opponent rolls an extra dice for Fear test and uses highest two results.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
roxor08 wrote: Weird it wasn't a double post so here we go again:
I pre ordered the codex on iBooks...does anyone know if/when I can download the codex? How/when will I know when it's available for download?
It seemed to go up in the UK at midnight, I guess same for u, altho I'd have no idea how that is affected by the Time Zone.
Thank ye. Points? The horror still blows and OA sounds pretty bad, but hive commander... maybe.
Thank ye. Points? The horror still blows and OA sounds pretty bad, but hive commander... maybe.
Hive Commander has come down by 5 points , OA is 10 pts cheaper, I Horror by 15.
So, like quite a few things not totally a nerf, as I don't think the old one stacked. Now we can outflank two troop choices if we have 2 flyrants. .. and, hey, look on the bright side, we have no mycetic spores on wich we need that roll bonus!
Yeah...so I'm pretty much going to ignore this codex, any nid player that wants to play me with their 5th ed is welcome too, treat the new mcs as you might a supplement.
I've heard a few other players saying they might proceed as such too.
Honestly, just give us back Biomancy and I would be happy. Maybe ML upgrades on some Psychic units. Perfectly happy, content, and satisfied. As it is I'm miffed but not hopeless.
@Hive Fleet Oblivion: Much appreciated, the points drops help there.
Got my book. Couple thoughts and things that caught my eye:
Deathleaper's -d3 Ld debuff can be used against any Character in your opponents army, rather than just the Warlord. So this allows you to selectively target a particularly problematic model, like a Ethereal, or the Farseer (of the pair) that has a particular power, like Fortune.
The Horror seems like it may be the key to making CC builds work. Being able to pin a unit down at 24" will actually allow us to catch the unit without being shot off the board or having it run away. Jetseer Council? Pin that thing down by blanketing it in Synapse, and Horror it till the game ends. Not reliable, but a nice strategy to deal with the unit, potentially?
Deathleaper's -d3 Ld debuff can be used against any Character in your opponents army, rather than just the Warlord. So this allows you to selectively target a particularly problematic model, like a Ethereal, or the Farseer (of the pair) that has a particular power, like Fortune.
The Horror seems like it may be the key to making CC builds work. Being able to pin a unit down at 24" will actually allow us to catch the unit without being shot off the board or having it run away. Jetseer Council? Pin that thing down by blanketing it in Synapse, and Horror it till the game ends. Not reliable, but a nice strategy to deal with the unit, potentially?
Daemons and Jetbikes are immune to pinning, so yay. However, forcing morale checks on Jetseer units is very viable.
Deathleaper's -d3 Ld debuff can be used against any Character in your opponents army, rather than just the Warlord. So this allows you to selectively target a particularly problematic model, like a Ethereal, or the Farseer (of the pair) that has a particular power, like Fortune.
The Horror seems like it may be the key to making CC builds work. Being able to pin a unit down at 24" will actually allow us to catch the unit without being shot off the board or having it run away. Jetseer Council? Pin that thing down by blanketing it in Synapse, and Horror it till the game ends. Not reliable, but a nice strategy to deal with the unit, potentially?
Daemons and Jetbikes are immune to pinning, so yay. However, forcing morale checks on Jetseer units is very viable.
Oi!
Paroxsym is also a decent power for a foot list, as it will help mitigate mid-range firepower as you run down their throats. Also useful for Flyrants to prevent the benefits of Skyfire, etc. A Flyrant or ground psychic support could help out Tyranid air not get shot down by Quad-Guns, etc.
Deathleaper's -d3 Ld debuff can be used against any Character in your opponents army, rather than just the Warlord. So this allows you to selectively target a particularly problematic model, like a Ethereal, or the Farseer (of the pair) that has a particular power, like Fortune.
The Horror seems like it may be the key to making CC builds work. Being able to pin a unit down at 24" will actually allow us to catch the unit without being shot off the board or having it run away. Jetseer Council? Pin that thing down by blanketing it in Synapse, and Horror it till the game ends. Not reliable, but a nice strategy to deal with the unit, potentially?
Unreliable to say the least considering how much fearless there is. Might work thought but how does Synapse help sorry?
Deathleaper's -d3 Ld debuff can be used against any Character in your opponents army, rather than just the Warlord. So this allows you to selectively target a particularly problematic model, like a Ethereal, or the Farseer (of the pair) that has a particular power, like Fortune.
The Horror seems like it may be the key to making CC builds work. Being able to pin a unit down at 24" will actually allow us to catch the unit without being shot off the board or having it run away. Jetseer Council? Pin that thing down by blanketing it in Synapse, and Horror it till the game ends. Not reliable, but a nice strategy to deal with the unit, potentially?
Unreliable to say the least considering how much fearless there is. Might work thought but how does Synapse help sorry?
SitW gives -3 LD to any Psyker in range. All the Warlocks, Farseer, etc, get bumped down. Wrote synapse, meant Shadows.
Sadly the question will be brought up again on if Maledictions stack. For example, if Paroxysm stacks and you roll it twice, it could be BRUTAL. There's no limit on reducing BS/WS to 0, and if it gets to 0 it can't attack. So Riptide? Roll a 5/6 and the thing literally can not fire guns. Same with Markerlights. If it stacks, then the odds of "removing" a units shooting go up dramatically. I mean just imagine the look on a Taudar players face when his Riptide is literally incapable of shooting for a turn, or intercepting. Paroxysm is the hidden gem of the Psychic chart, and is just as good as Catalyst.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: So is the consensus that Genestealers, Raveners and Lictors suck?
Genestealers got more viable only in the sense that our troop options got worse. Ravener's recieved a slight nerf and still suck, just slightly harder. Lictors are better than last edition but still suck.
Deathleaper's -d3 Ld debuff can be used against any Character in your opponents army, rather than just the Warlord. So this allows you to selectively target a particularly problematic model, like a Ethereal, or the Farseer (of the pair) that has a particular power, like Fortune.
The Horror seems like it may be the key to making CC builds work. Being able to pin a unit down at 24" will actually allow us to catch the unit without being shot off the board or having it run away. Jetseer Council? Pin that thing down by blanketing it in Synapse, and Horror it till the game ends. Not reliable, but a nice strategy to deal with the unit, potentially?
Don't forget that the only psyker we have on par with a Farseer is the Swarmlord, so they'll be DtWing on a 4+.
jifel wrote: Sadly the question will be brought up again on if Maledictions stack. For example, if Paroxysm stacks and you roll it twice, it could be BRUTAL. There's no limit on reducing BS/WS to 0, and if it gets to 0 it can't attack. So Riptide? Roll a 5/6 and the thing literally can not fire guns. Same with Markerlights. If it stacks, then the odds of "removing" a units shooting go up dramatically. I mean just imagine the look on a Taudar players face when his Riptide is literally incapable of shooting for a turn, or intercepting. Paroxysm is the hidden gem of the Psychic chart, and is just as good as Catalyst.
Agree with you here. Honestly, I think the new nid book isn't so hot, but it's not like i'm going to quit my army. Now we need to try and make the best of it by thinking deeply about what they gave us.
jifel wrote: Sadly the question will be brought up again on if Maledictions stack. For example, if Paroxysm stacks and you roll it twice, it could be BRUTAL. There's no limit on reducing BS/WS to 0, and if it gets to 0 it can't attack. So Riptide? Roll a 5/6 and the thing literally can not fire guns. Same with Markerlights. If it stacks, then the odds of "removing" a units shooting go up dramatically. I mean just imagine the look on a Taudar players face when his Riptide is literally incapable of shooting for a turn, or intercepting. Paroxysm is the hidden gem of the Psychic chart, and is just as good as Catalyst.
Actually as someone pointed out to me when I had the same thought, the section on Maledictions specifically states they can't reduce stats below 1.
jifel wrote: Sadly the question will be brought up again on if Maledictions stack. For example, if Paroxysm stacks and you roll it twice, it could be BRUTAL. There's no limit on reducing BS/WS to 0, and if it gets to 0 it can't attack. So Riptide? Roll a 5/6 and the thing literally can not fire guns. Same with Markerlights. If it stacks, then the odds of "removing" a units shooting go up dramatically. I mean just imagine the look on a Taudar players face when his Riptide is literally incapable of shooting for a turn, or intercepting. Paroxysm is the hidden gem of the Psychic chart, and is just as good as Catalyst.
I disagree and think you are grasping. Your scenario is filled with randomness. I don't subscribe to the notion that randomness = zany fun times. Paroxysm is mediocre and far from a gem, hidden or otherwise.
jifel wrote: Sadly the question will be brought up again on if Maledictions stack. For example, if Paroxysm stacks and you roll it twice, it could be BRUTAL. There's no limit on reducing BS/WS to 0, and if it gets to 0 it can't attack. So Riptide? Roll a 5/6 and the thing literally can not fire guns. Same with Markerlights. If it stacks, then the odds of "removing" a units shooting go up dramatically. I mean just imagine the look on a Taudar players face when his Riptide is literally incapable of shooting for a turn, or intercepting. Paroxysm is the hidden gem of the Psychic chart, and is just as good as Catalyst.
I disagree and think you are grasping. Your scenario is filled with randomness. I don't subscribe to the notion that randomness = zany fun times. Paroxysm is mediocre and far from a gem, hidden or otherwise.
Other than rolling up Paroxysm, it's hardly random to get it off against anything that doesn't have an improved DtW. If I happen to roll Paroxsym, I doubt I would trade it in for Dominion.It's a decent utility power if you happen to roll it. Basing a grand strategy on it, is of course, not reliable, but the power itself is decent.
Deathleaper's -d3 Ld debuff can be used against any Character in your opponents army, rather than just the Warlord. So this allows you to selectively target a particularly problematic model, like a Ethereal, or the Farseer (of the pair) that has a particular power, like Fortune.
The Horror seems like it may be the key to making CC builds work. Being able to pin a unit down at 24" will actually allow us to catch the unit without being shot off the board or having it run away. Jetseer Council? Pin that thing down by blanketing it in Synapse, and Horror it till the game ends. Not reliable, but a nice strategy to deal with the unit, potentially?
Don't forget that the only psyker we have on par with a Farseer is the Swarmlord, so they'll be DtWing on a 4+.
Deathleaper + SitW should be quite useful against a grimoire holder.
drorain wrote: Yeah...so I'm pretty much going to ignore this codex, any nid player that wants to play me with their 5th ed is welcome too, treat the new mcs as you might a supplement.
I've heard a few other players saying they might proceed as such too.
So adding in the new MC's, will you be ignoring EVERYTHING from the new dex or will you be flying around with 225 pt ML 2 Biomancy TL Devourer Flyrants and pod dropping in 150 pt Dakkafex's?
jifel wrote: Sadly the question will be brought up again on if Maledictions stack. For example, if Paroxysm stacks and you roll it twice, it could be BRUTAL. There's no limit on reducing BS/WS to 0, and if it gets to 0 it can't attack. So Riptide? Roll a 5/6 and the thing literally can not fire guns. Same with Markerlights. If it stacks, then the odds of "removing" a units shooting go up dramatically. I mean just imagine the look on a Taudar players face when his Riptide is literally incapable of shooting for a turn, or intercepting. Paroxysm is the hidden gem of the Psychic chart, and is just as good as Catalyst.
Paroxysm: Not entirely awful. The biggest thing is that it doesn't, for now, say "to a minimum of 1" anywhere. So theoretically you could use this to prevent a unit from shooting or striking in CC at all if they are BS or WS 3 or less.
Your opinion is pretty accurate and I think I agree with everything you said, just thought I'd point out for you that the part I quoted is in BRB p.68 that Maledictions are cumulative but cannot take characteristics above 10 or below 1.
I'll also help you out by letting you know that even if there was no limitations, the trade off for the consistency of being able to reduce two different units to snapshots and 5's in combat is nowhere near worth having to cast twice, and then get two nice rolls on top of that to possibly make 1 unit's weapons useless. For numerous reasons.
Other than rolling up Paroxysm, it's hardly random to get it off against anything that doesn't have an improved DtW. If I happen to roll Paroxsym, I doubt I would trade it in for Dominion.It's a decent utility power if you happen to roll it. Basing a grand strategy on it, is of course, not reliable, but the power itself is decent.
First, you haven't taken into account the further *random* d3 result for paroxysm. Also saying that you doubt you would switch out Paroxysm for Dominion is not saying much. It's like saying I'd rather get hit by a car than fall off a building.
jifel wrote: Sadly the question will be brought up again on if Maledictions stack. For example, if Paroxysm stacks and you roll it twice, it could be BRUTAL. There's no limit on reducing BS/WS to 0, and if it gets to 0 it can't attack. So Riptide? Roll a 5/6 and the thing literally can not fire guns. Same with Markerlights. If it stacks, then the odds of "removing" a units shooting go up dramatically. I mean just imagine the look on a Taudar players face when his Riptide is literally incapable of shooting for a turn, or intercepting. Paroxysm is the hidden gem of the Psychic chart, and is just as good as Catalyst.
I disagree and think you are grasping. Your scenario is filled with randomness. I don't subscribe to the notion that randomness = zany fun times. Paroxysm is mediocre and far from a gem, hidden or otherwise.
Other than rolling up Paroxysm, it's hardly random to get it off against anything that doesn't have an improved DtW. If I happen to roll Paroxsym, I doubt I would trade it in for Dominion.It's a decent utility power if you happen to roll it. Basing a grand strategy on it, is of course, not reliable, but the power itself is decent.
Exactly. If you roll it vs Tau, then it will help a lot. (True on the cannot reduce to 0, however). Still, pass the check and get past the DtW (a 76% chance) and you now make Pathfinders snapshot on a 3+. That qualifies as "useful" to me. I'm saying its a gem because its being passed off as useless, and I think it is useful, I'm not saying it will save the codex. But, one more useful option is better than not. Also, you can use however many powers you roll, so why not? On a Flyrant, Catalyst is great, Warp Lance is ok, Paroxysm is good, the Horror is kinda good, Onslaught is kinda good, and the nova thing isn't good. 5/6 are genuinely useful. The Horror is pretty easy to pin a unit of pathfinders, they aren't high Ld. Paroxysm the same. Catalyst obviously is good, while Onslught increases his own range by an effective 2d6, while Warp lance is a FLYING SKYFIRE BS 4 STENGTH 10 LANCE. That will kill many flyers in the game, and various tanks. Even Dominion isn't bad, as the +6 makes your Flyrants useful for Synapse where ordinarily its easy to get out of range. Even spirit leech isn't bad if you have two fire warrior squads or such behind an Aegis.
Other than rolling up Paroxysm, it's hardly random to get it off against anything that doesn't have an improved DtW. If I happen to roll Paroxsym, I doubt I would trade it in for Dominion.It's a decent utility power if you happen to roll it. Basing a grand strategy on it, is of course, not reliable, but the power itself is decent.
First, you haven't taken into account the further *random* d3 result for paroxysm. Also saying that you doubt you would switch out Paroxysm for Dominion is not saying much. It's like saying I'd rather get hit by a car than fall off a building.
It's not much more random than other powers. on a 3+ that is a SIGNIFICANT debuff to shooting on a unit, while on a 1-2 its still a decent hindrance.
Exactly. If you roll it vs Tau, then it will help a lot. (True on the cannot reduce to 0, however). Still, pass the check and get past the DtW (a 76% chance) and you now make Pathfinders snapshot on a 3+. That qualifies as "useful" to me. I'm saying its a gem because its being passed off as useless, and I think it is useful, I'm not saying it will save the codex. But, one more useful option is better than not. Also, you can use however many powers you roll, so why not? On a Flyrant, Catalyst is great, Warp Lance is ok, Paroxysm is good, the Horror is kinda good, Onslaught is kinda good, and the nova thing isn't good. 5/6 are genuinely useful. The Horror is pretty easy to pin a unit of pathfinders, they aren't high Ld. Paroxysm the same. Catalyst obviously is good, while Onslught increases his own range by an effective 2d6, while Warp lance is a FLYING SKYFIRE BS 4 STENGTH 10 LANCE. That will kill many flyers in the game, and various tanks. Even Dominion isn't bad, as the +6 makes your Flyrants useful for Synapse where ordinarily its easy to get out of range. Even spirit leech isn't bad if you have two fire warrior squads or such behind an Aegis.
I think you really should make the distinction between situationally useful and useful.
So how is anything you are saying making the power Paroxysm better than it was last codex?
Because I'll give you a tip, you guys are completely missing the point. It's effect has gone down in strength, saying that it hasn't is just foolish. On a roll of a 5 or 6, vs nothing with BS or WS higher than 4, you are lucky enough to achieve what the power did 100% of the time in the last codex, to anybody.
The real buff is the fact that it is now a malediction and not a witchfire. Meaning it doesn't count as firing a weapon, But if the effect power last codex was still not powerful enough to justify casting over firing 1 set of TL Devourers, and its only gotten noticeably worse since, I think it's safe to debunk any theories that this is the "hidden gem" of the codex that is going to bring it all together.
Other than rolling up Paroxysm, it's hardly random to get it off against anything that doesn't have an improved DtW. If I happen to roll Paroxsym, I doubt I would trade it in for Dominion.It's a decent utility power if you happen to roll it. Basing a grand strategy on it, is of course, not reliable, but the power itself is decent.
First, you haven't taken into account the further *random* d3 result for paroxysm. Also saying that you doubt you would switch out Paroxysm for Dominion is not saying much. It's like saying I'd rather get hit by a car than fall off a building.
Haha amazingly accurate for more than what you just , had to sig :d
I see a lot of complaints and a lot of negative remarks and some good. Could we make a compiled list of the posetive changes? I do not have the book so please coment if i am saying something wrong.
General
- A new warlord table is more options. Othervice use the one in the rulebook.
- The elite slot got freed up with heavy suport becoming cheaper?
- We have more flying units in more slots, some of the viable?
- We can now get more attacks by having more pairs of weapons.
Upgrades:
- All ouer big bugs can get fleet from adrenaline glands?
- Venom cannon is better vs vehicles?
HQ:
- Hive tyrant got a bit cheaper and he is now BS 4. (Good for shooting psykick powers.) Also flying dakka tyrants can take out airplanes more consistently?
Troops:
- Spamming Broolords means you can force people into failing some pinning tests redusing the need for frag grenades.?
- Warriors can get fleet with adrenaline glands and they can now take frag grenades?
- Cheaper small bugs?
Elite:
- A singel zonathrope i mastery level 2 and use 2 powers for 1 model?
- Lictors can start on the table?
- Venenom tropes became good again?
Fast Attack:
- Raveners also can take frag grenades?
- Presumably shrikes with adrenaline glands are also cool?
- Harpy is less sucky and more cheap. (Keep in mind it is a flying MC who can smash those tanks.)
- We have more options with skyfire?
- Spore mines are more interesting.
Heavy suport
- Carnifexes droped by 40 points, it is finaly viable to field them?
- Carnifexes have better inpact hits?
- The mawlock's burrowing attack got much more killier with 2 blast attacks S6 AP2. Also a price drop means he is relatiavly cheap T6 3+ save wounds?
- Trygon is cheaper ?
- Tyranofex is cheap enough to use. A coupel of torent shots and then it's mellee time?
- The spore mine shooter got indirect better?
- We got a new BS model if it does not move? (Or is he in elite?)
Some of the bad stuff besides (and yes there was a lot of bad stuff) I will say that some of this is quite good. Can anybody verify if I have understood this right?
Last time i really did a trial and error runn with my nids was during 5th edition, often vs shooty transport parkin lot lists. What always stood out for me was that I was paying to much points per wound. What littel made it across the board often did good, but it was to little to late. Perhaps the point decrease in big bodies was all we needed?
Deathleaper's -d3 Ld debuff can be used against any Character in your opponents army, rather than just the Warlord. So this allows you to selectively target a particularly problematic model, like a Ethereal, or the Farseer (of the pair) that has a particular power, like Fortune.
The Horror seems like it may be the key to making CC builds work. Being able to pin a unit down at 24" will actually allow us to catch the unit without being shot off the board or having it run away. Jetseer Council? Pin that thing down by blanketing it in Synapse, and Horror it till the game ends. Not reliable, but a nice strategy to deal with the unit, potentially?
Don't forget that the only psyker we have on par with a Farseer is the Swarmlord, so they'll be DtWing on a 4+.
Deathleaper + SitW should be quite useful against a grimoire holder.
Don't quite see how, the Grimoire isn't a psychic power, and no Ld tests are involved to use it.
Niiai wrote: I see a lot of complaints and a lot of negative remarks and some good. Could we make a compiled list of the posetive changes? I do not have the book so please coment if i am saying something wrong.
General
- A new warlord table is more options. Othervice use the one in the rulebook.
- The elite slot got freed up with heavy suport becoming cheaper?
- We have more flying units in more slots, some of the viable?
- We can now get more attacks by having more pairs of weapons.
Upgrades:
- All ouer big bugs can get fleet from adrenaline glands?
- Venom cannon is better vs vehicles?
HQ:
- Hive tyrant got a bit cheaper and he is now BS 4. (Good for shooting psykick powers.) Also flying dakka tyrants can take out airplanes more consistently?
Troops:
- Spamming Broolords means you can force people into failing some pinning tests redusing the need for frag grenades.?
- Warriors can get fleet with adrenaline glands and they can now take frag grenades?
- Cheaper small bugs?
Elite:
- A singel zonathrope i mastery level 2 and use 2 powers for 1 model?
- Lictors can start on the table?
- Venenom tropes became good again?
Fast Attack:
- Raveners also can take frag grenades?
- Presumably shrikes with adrenaline glands are also cool?
- Harpy is less sucky and more cheap. (Keep in mind it is a flying MC who can smash those tanks.)
- We have more options with skyfire?
- Spore mines are more interesting.
Heavy suport
- Carnifexes droped by 40 points, it is finaly viable to field them?
- Carnifexes have better inpact hits?
- The mawlock's burrowing attack got much more killier with 2 blast attacks S6 AP2. Also a price drop means he is relatiavly cheap T6 3+ save wounds?
- Trygon is cheaper ?
- Tyranofex is cheap enough to use. A coupel of torent shots and then it's mellee time?
- The spore mine shooter got indirect better?
- We got a new BS model if it does not move? (Or is he in elite?)
Some of the bad stuff besides (and yes there was a lot of bad stuff) I will say that some of this is quite good. Can anybody verify if I have understood this right?
Last time i really did a trial and error runn with my nids was during 5th edition, often vs shooty transport parkin lot lists. What always stood out for me was that I was paying to much points per wound. What littel made it across the board often did good, but it was to little to late. Perhaps the point decrease in big bodies was all we needed?
General
- The new warlord table is bad.
- I suppose this is true.
- I suppose this is true.
- No, it balances out.
Upgrades:
- Yes, afaik.
- 6/4, Hvy is 9/4
HQ:
- I suppose this is true.
Troops:
- suppose this is true.
- suppose this is true.
- suppose this is true.
Elite:
- No
- Yes
- Yes, though they always had a use. Better now.
Fast Attack:
- Dunno
-"Cool"? ...
- suppose this is true.
- Yes
- suppose this is true.
Heavy suport
- Yes
- Yes
- Yes
- Yes
- Yes, but only 1 torrent weapon.
- Hard to understand what you mean. Biovores are better. Spore mines more effective.
- Yes and it's heavy support.
Niiai wrote: I see a lot of complaints and a lot of negative remarks and some good. Could we make a compiled list of the posetive changes? I do not have the book so please coment if i am saying something wrong.
General
- A new warlord table is more options. Othervice use the one in the rulebook. All the special characters already have a warlord trait though...and the swarmlord's warlord trait is the +6" synapse...so technically he LOST his warlord trait, since he used to have the +6" built in and rolled for random one.
- The elite slot got freed up with heavy suport becoming cheaper? It got freed up via elimination of all the good elites....Doom and Ymgarls are just...gone. Zoans cannot pods so are sub-par at best, and hive guard got worse, but are still decent.
- We have more flying units in more slots, some of the viable? 1 more flier, and it's still fast attack. With the harpy still being abysmal we have the flying tyrant and the crone basically.
- We can now get more attacks by having more pairs of weapons. Not really....technically a melee tyrant or prime could have 1 more attack, but I'm not sure it's a great idea. Also, the loss of rerolls wrecked the last shred of ravener's viability and took out like 22% of the trygon's damage output. Also lost melee carnifexes something like 25% of their melee damage output....but at least they are 25% cheaper, so effectively do roughly the same amount of damage per point as they used (hint, that's not good)
Upgrades:
- All ouer big bugs can get fleet from adrenaline glands? If you wanna spend 15 points on fleet, sure.
- Venom cannon is better vs vehicles? The heavy venom cannon lost the -1 on the vehicle damage table, but it's still a poor weapon choice IMO.
HQ:
- Hive tyrant got a bit cheaper and he is now BS 4. (Good for shooting psykick powers.) Also flying dakka tyrants can take out airplanes more consistently? The Hive Tyrant got a boost to BS and a reduction in points, as well as mastery level 2, but lost biomancy....so basically a lateral move for him overall...maybe still a nerf due to how amazing biomancy was for him.
Troops:
- Spamming Broolords means you can force people into failing some pinning tests redusing the need for frag grenades.? This....doesn't work. Too many things are immune to pinning or have a high enough LD to not be bothered.
- Warriors can get fleet with adrenaline glands and they can now take frag grenades? Technically, yes. Warriors are still excessively expensive though.
- Cheaper small bugs? Yes AND no. The termigants went to 4 points each, and hormigants went to 5, so -1 point each. Hormigant's upgrade are more expensive now, so with the upgrades they have no change. Termigant upgrades DOUBLED in price from 1 to 2 each, making them 8 with AG and TS or 12 with devourers too. With the loss of tervigons giving out AG/TS, that means if you want to keep gaunts at the same level of effectiveness they are technically 3 more each. So you get to choose between cheaper and worse, or the same and more expensive.
Elite:
- A singel zonathrope i mastery level 2 and use 2 powers for 1 model? Nope. The powers he gets is Warp blast and 1 random. With warp blast being a 2 charge power, you can never cast both in the same turn.
- Lictors can start on the table?
- Venenom tropes became good again? I dunno about "again"....more like "for once", but yeah.
Fast Attack:
- Raveners also can take frag grenades? Not that i've heard.
- Presumably shrikes with adrenaline glands are also cool? Shrikes are literally no better than before...and I think twin bone swords and lashwhip/BS combo is more expensive too (from 10/15 to 15/20 I think?)
- Harpy is less sucky and more cheap. (Keep in mind it is a flying MC who can smash those tanks.) Still T5 with a 4+...aka quad-gun fodder. Hell, enfeeble and a failed grounding test turns them into a smear on the pavement.
- We have more options with skyfire? 1 more option.....The Crone's missiles, of which they have 4, and can only fire 2 per turn. Standard enemy doctrine will see these annihilated before they can get a volley off against flyers though.
- Spore mines are more interesting. Agreed, but biovores were always awesome, and the spore cluster was always bad.
Heavy suport
- Carnifexes droped by 40 points, it is finaly viable to field them? One of the few big winners in the new book IMO. I still don't think it's enough though.
- Carnifexes have better inpact hits? That....doesn't even matter. Against vehicles 4+ S9-S10 attacks are more than enough, and against anything with an armor save the 1 extra attack on average really isn't putting out anything significant damage wise.
- The mawlock's burrowing attack got much more killier with 2 blast attacks S6 AP2. Also a price drop means he is relatiavly cheap T6 3+ save wounds? I'm interested to see how people play these, but off-hand it's way too risky for my taste. Too likely to mishaps and suicide IMO.
- Trygon is cheaper ? 10 WHOLE POINTS! For the low low cost of ~22% of it's melee damage! No rerolls make me sad :(
- Tyranofex is cheap enough to use. A coupel of torent shots and then it's mellee time? Still 50+ points over costed IMO.
- The spore mine shooter got indirect better?
- We got a new BS model if it does not move? (Or is he in elite?) Exocrine. I'm on the fence with this guy. Heavy support is going to be packed, and with only 24" range, and comparing him to other shooting MCs in other books <cough> Riptide <cough> he doesn't stack up at all really.
Noctem wrote: Hmm, so for my Trygon kit I got, I'm really stuck between building it as a Trygon or Mawloc now... (not going to magnetize)
If I'm going to start off with a single Trygon/Mawloc in my army, which would be best given the new rules?
I would have to say the Mawloc.
Trygon costs 60 more points, but give you +2 WS, +2A. and 6 shots at S5 AP5 at BS3 the turn you arrive. This is the trade off for 2x S6 AP2 blasts wherever the Mawloc itself lands including directly in the middle of a unit, and the fact that you can literally buy 3 Mawlocs for the price of 2 Trygons.
The Trygon Prime is deepstriking Synapse and twice as many shots, but for more points than a Flyrant I'd say it's probably little that a Flyrant couldn't do better.
At the end of the day though, as far as similar kits go, well, they are the similar-est. Other than the head there is some differences with the tail or some gak i dont even know what they are, the difference between models isn't even as big as the difference between some space marine conversions ive seen, I think only strict Tournaments may not allow you to play each one as either. I'm actually curious to ask people, would your TO allow you to play a Trygon as a Mawloc?
Speaking about the codex today, a few things fall into place. One of the older members of the Stoke branch is regular play tester for the pre release codex's as he has a number of armies they use when the designers want to try out their rules. Well it turns out he basically advised the design team that the NID codex was far too week and he basically walked over their armies, so they kept adding and changing the rules until it became such a mess that they stopped play testing the book. The white dwarf article was done in the released format because it became obvious that things did not work. They even toned down the riptides load out and tailored the report so it looked as if the new NID's could stand up to the best units in the game. it was a lie.
They basically ran out of time to publish the codex. To make it right, they would likely have to start over again, and the old one was already way behind.
So somewhere along the line someone high up forced the release, the Models were obviously ready and the penny counters wanted a return, as it costs to sculpt, and they don't want molds sat there for another 6-12 months. The inventory was in supply or on order, so it had to be pushed out.
Add to this that the reason we don't have the doom or parasite or pod was a hang over of the chapter-house law suit. When that went to court GW decided that they would not be making these models as the cost of the molds and time was too expensive. So the safest way to remove influence from chapter-house, was to make any of the disputed models obsolete. Remove them from the codex.
We already had the design team at Nottingham give interviews saying they would put right the 5th edition codex, i wonder what they are going to say this time.
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Speaking about the codex today, a few things fall into place. One of the older members of the Stoke branch is regular play tester for the pre release codex's as he has a number of armies they use when the designers want to try out their rules. Well it turns out he basically advised the design team that the NID codex was far too week and he basically walked over their armies, so they kept adding and changing the rules until it became such a mess that they stopped play testing the book. The white dwarf article was done in the released format because it became obvious that things did not work. They even toned down the riptides load out and tailored the report so it looked as if the new NID's could stand up to the best units in the game. it was a lie.
They basically ran out of time to publish the codex. To make it right, they would likely have to start over again, and the old one was already way behind.
So somewhere along the line someone high up forced the release, the Models were obviously ready and the penny counters wanted a return, as it costs to sculpt, and they don't want molds sat there for another 6-12 months. The inventory was in supply or on order, so it had to be pushed out.
Add to this that the reason we don't have the doom or parasite or pod was a hang over of the chapter-house law suit. When that went to court GW decided that they would not be making these models as the cost of the molds and time was too expensive. So the safest way to remove influence from chapter-house, was to make any of the disputed models obsolete. Remove them from the codex.
We already had the design team at Nottingham give interviews saying they would put right the 5th edition codex, i wonder what they are going to say this time.
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How am I not surprised at all? This actually sounds like more effort was put into this release to balance it than I thought. No exaggeration.
If you had told me an hour ago that an insider was going to speak out about the failings of the Codex, and asked me to predict what he was going to say it would have been this:
"New models were brought out, rules were made to sell them. Playtesting stretched as far as a doctored White Dwarf article. To continue the further sales of previous recent releases from the army, the more popular model in each dual kit was nerfed and/or the weaker one was given a point reduction, to help cash in as much as possible on the new dex. Thought was not put into creating unique army rules to compliment and justify the race itself, instead ideas such as Relics were thrown in because they are proven to work. Other than the flavor text and fluff, writing of the rules for this army began three weeks before the official release and were rushed through to sell models".
Oh hold on, that's basically what he is saying, in a slightly more conservative manner.
with Zoanthropes being ML2 with lance and a random ML1 power, if they choose to use the secondary power can they use it twice to use up both warp charges?
Speaking about the codex today, a few things fall into place. One of the older members of the Stoke branch is regular play tester for the pre release codex's as he has a number of armies they use when the designers want to try out their rules. Well it turns out he basically advised the design team that the NID codex was far too week and he basically walked over their armies, so they kept adding and changing the rules until it became such a mess that they stopped play testing the book. The white dwarf article was done in the released format because it became obvious that things did not work. They even toned down the riptides load out and tailored the report so it looked as if the new NID's could stand up to the best units in the game. it was a lie.
They basically ran out of time to publish the codex. To make it right, they would likely have to start over again, and the old one was already way behind.
So somewhere along the line someone high up forced the release, the Models were obviously ready and the penny counters wanted a return, as it costs to sculpt, and they don't want molds sat there for another 6-12 months. The inventory was in supply or on order, so it had to be pushed out.
Add to this that the reason we don't have the doom or parasite or pod was a hang over of the chapter-house law suit. When that went to court GW decided that they would not be making these models as the cost of the molds and time was too expensive. So the safest way to remove influence from chapter-house, was to make any of the disputed models obsolete. Remove them from the codex.
We already had the design team at Nottingham give interviews saying they would put right the 5th edition codex, i wonder what they are going to say this time.
Its a sad time. Send in your complaints
For all your Customer Service enquiries call: +44 (0)115 91 40000
Customer Service opening hours:
Monday to Friday - 9.30am to 6.00pm
By Mail
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NG7 2WS
This seems like the sort of rumor that people are just desperate to believe.
I don't care if it's true or false, though, I think it's more important that so many people are convinced by it. However, I expect the grumbling will die down as the non-Tyranid players move onto the next flavour of the month so there won't be any fallout.
I'd like to believe that with enough attention, they might get some love but if that was the case, they wouldn't have done such a bad job in the first place.
I don't think this codex was written to sell new models, all the new toys got average rules at best (maybe not Tyrant Guard). If that was true, it would mean GW can't even do their shady pracctices properly.
I'd like to believe that with enough attention, they might get some love but if that was the case, they wouldn't have done such a bad job in the first place.
They were the best selling xenos army before the 5th edition codex. Don't cling to the hope that good sales means you'll get a good codex.
Thorgut wrote: This seems like the sort of rumor that people are just desperate to believe.
I don't care if it's true or false, though, I think it's more important that so many people are convinced by it. However, I expect the grumbling will die down as the non-Tyranid players move onto the next flavour of the month so there won't be any fallout.
I'd like to believe that with enough attention, they might get some love but if that was the case, they wouldn't have done such a bad job in the first place.
You mean like how the "grumbling died down" for the 5th edition 'Nid codex? That codex that to this day Tyranid players still hate mass trash-talk?
Thorgut wrote: This seems like the sort of rumor that people are just desperate to believe.
I don't care if it's true or false, though, I think it's more important that so many people are convinced by it. However, I expect the grumbling will die down as the non-Tyranid players move onto the next flavour of the month so there won't be any fallout.
I'd like to believe that with enough attention, they might get some love but if that was the case, they wouldn't have done such a bad job in the first place.
You mean like how the "grumbling died down" for the 5th edition 'Nid codex? That codex that to this day Tyranid players still hate mass trash-talk?
Actually, as of ~Wednesday, we have been looking back on it with quiet fondness. Up until then you are of course correct.
Thorgut wrote: This seems like the sort of rumor that people are just desperate to believe.
I don't care if it's true or false, though, I think it's more important that so many people are convinced by it. However, I expect the grumbling will die down as the non-Tyranid players move onto the next flavour of the month so there won't be any fallout.
I'd like to believe that with enough attention, they might get some love but if that was the case, they wouldn't have done such a bad job in the first place.
You mean like how the "grumbling died down" for the 5th edition 'Nid codex? That codex that to this day Tyranid players still hate mass trash-talk?
Die down in the sense that it's not the focus any more as something new comes along, not that it's not justified nor that Tyranid players themselves will be satisfied. If 5th edition was as bad for Tyranids and GW didn't care, it's highly likely this will just be a repeat.
Plumbumbarum wrote: I don't think this codex was written to sell new models, all the new toys got average rules at best (maybe not Tyrant Guard). If that was true, it would mean GW can't even do their shady pracctices properly.
Well not including the exocrine which is really good, I think this is explained by the fact that it wasn't fully playtested and just rushed out the gate. If it's not strong quite strong as it should be, what would they care? In a codex full of weak crap that just got weaker the Crone is likely enough to sell - its a new dragon why wouldn't it.
I really can't understand how anyone can still believe the whole "GW makes new models' rules OP" anymore, especially after nearly every codex release has had new models that were crap or mediocre at best (mutilators, warp talons, DA termies and fliers, tzeentch and khorne chariots, eldar fliers, tau fliers, centurions, vanguard veterans, now tyranid warriors and hive guard/tyrant guard!).
Joyboozer wrote: The codex isn't bad, it's just written with next edition in mind!
I think it's just been more or less confirmed that it's not written with anything in mind.
Also, this is the kind of optimism that was shown when we, for example, first saw Warrior statline and special rules. "oh well they obviously haven't changed because the codex have been rules designed with them in mind with wargear that grant EW on Synapse"
And a million similar things. Forgive me if I've become a skeptic but I think I'll just express, that you can keep saying that it's NOT bad because of what you WISH to be real, I'm going to say that it IS bad because of what IS real.
I don't want to harass anybody, but it might not hurt to politely express an interest in some Tyranid Dataslates to replace our lost characters and units on the GW Digital Facebook page.
The staff running it seem very friendly and have said many times they're receptive to hearing what fans want to see. If enough people articulate their desire to see rules for the Mycetic Spores, Doom, Parasite and Ymgarl Stealers, it might at least start a discussion within the digital team.
Similarly, Forge World has a Facebook page. It doesn't seem impossible to think that they could easily make a Mycetic Spore or resin upgrade kits to represent a Parasite, Doom or brood of Ymgarls. Along with the new models would come rules, which would allow us to play the converted models that many of us spent so much time and money on.
The key is to have lots of people do it, but have them do it in a polite and persuasive manner - especially if they include pictures of well-converted and painted models from the dropped units, since the people running the page often comment on nicely-painted minis (if you want the rules back but don't have painted and converted minis, you can just post pictures of mine). Just an idea - if done well it certainly won't make anything worse!
is it true that you only benefit from one set of weapons in combat? im trying to decide what would be best to run on my tyrant guard with the swarmlord. if I were to add swap the scytals for crushing claws, would that mean I have to pick to use either the crushing claws or the stock rending claws?
madmitch411 wrote: is it true that you only benefit from one set of weapons in combat? im trying to decide what would be best to run on my tyrant guard with the swarmlord. if I were to add swap the scytals for crushing claws, would that mean I have to pick to use either the crushing claws or the stock rending claws?
You are correct. But you would still get the +1 attack for them. And really TG with crushing claws seem to be the best built. You either strike at initiative with rending or you strike at I1 with S6 AP2 armourbane.
Just discovered that a Carnie can get S9 ap- 6" assault 2 guns. Flesh hooks might be a little more useable that first expected.
Other weapon improvements that have been looked over:
The strangle web went from laughable to merely sucks.
All the throrax swarms got better.
Fleshborer hive got a 6" range boost
Got the new codex in hand and have read through it, here's the most notable stuff (much has been mentioned before):
The Good:
-Lots of stuff got much cheaper - Old One Eye - 220, Zoans - 50, venomthropes - 45, Carnifex - 120, Mawloc - 140, Tyrannofex - 175
-Nids finally have access to plasma (other than pricy carnifex upgrade) with the exocrine
-Mawloc burrow got much better with the chance to get 2 str6 ap2 large blasts that ignore cover, though if he cant fit on the board after both blasts he mishaps
-Shadow in the warp drops ld by 3, and not just for psychic tests
-Hormagaunts get +3 to run distance, rather than highest of 3d6 -If you have the extra fast slots, spore mines are cheap distractions that can do heavy damage if ignored
-Adrenal glands give fleet AND furious charge now
-Zoanthropes come with warp blast by default and can take an additional power from the nids codex
-Venomthropes now give shrouded rather than separate 5+ cover save
-Tervigon gives gants within 12 counterattack
-Tervigon and carnifex up to initiative 2
-Rending claws ap 5 by default
-Have access to some haywire weapons
The Bad:
-4+ saves with only t5 on new flyers makes them very vulnerable to quad guns
-No torrent on crones flamer weapon and its 4 haywire missiles are one-shot only
-Scything talons no longer reroll 1s to hit (but are ap6)
-Swarmlord is forced to have the 18" synapse warlord trait (which brings him to where he was but minus a warlord trait now), no longer forces invuln rerolls, and his own invuln is still melee only
-No biomancy for any units
-Breaking synapse is far more punishing
-Hive Tyrants old adversary does not spread to friendly units and now only affects melee
-Trygon prime effectively lost 6 ranged shots (formerly had both a 12 shot and 6 shot weapon, now just 12)
-Most bio artifacts seem too pricey for their power
-Tyranid Prime and Tervigon got big price hikes (45 and 35 respectively), and Tervigon now requires a squad of 30 gants to become a troop
-Still no cheap skyfire (only crone and flyrants have anything viable)
-Heavy section is very crowded, containing most of our best units (unless FAQ gives us expanded force org)
-Ymgarls, Doom, Pods, and Parasite gone
-Genestealers, rippers, and pyrovores are still abysmal. Raveners, warriors, and lictors still aren't viable.
The Questions:
-No mention of an expanded force organization chart or taking another tyranid detachment?
-No mention of not being able to take fortifications?
-Nothing about whether melee weapon effects stack (boneswords and rending claws namely)?
Still digesting everything, trying to decide how much I like all the changes. I definitely see zoanthropes, biovores, exocrines, and mawlocs being the meta units. Going to have to try out haruspex, new flyers, deathleaper, and old one eye to see how they play.
Perhaps a question I have has already been covered, but are my current Nids slotted now because of the new release or can I still finish painting them, and use them with the new codex?
Speaking about the codex today, a few things fall into place. One of the older members of the Stoke branch is regular play tester for the pre release codex's as he has a number of armies they use when the designers want to try out their rules. Well it turns out he basically advised the design team that the NID codex was far too week and he basically walked over their armies, so they kept adding and changing the rules until it became such a mess that they stopped play testing the book. The white dwarf article was done in the released format because it became obvious that things did not work. They even toned down the riptides load out and tailored the report so it looked as if the new NID's could stand up to the best units in the game. it was a lie.
They basically ran out of time to publish the codex. To make it right, they would likely have to start over again, and the old one was already way behind.
So somewhere along the line someone high up forced the release, the Models were obviously ready and the penny counters wanted a return, as it costs to sculpt, and they don't want molds sat there for another 6-12 months. The inventory was in supply or on order, so it had to be pushed out.
Add to this that the reason we don't have the doom or parasite or pod was a hang over of the chapter-house law suit. When that went to court GW decided that they would not be making these models as the cost of the molds and time was too expensive. So the safest way to remove influence from chapter-house, was to make any of the disputed models obsolete. Remove them from the codex.
We already had the design team at Nottingham give interviews saying they would put right the 5th edition codex, i wonder what they are going to say this time.
Its a sad time. Send in your complaints
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If the play testing really had huge vulnerabilities it would have been easy to balance it.
Units dying to easy?
Add "It Will Not Die" to Catalyst.
Add "+1 T, Armor becomes Invul" to Domination.
Make Psychic Scream 12" instead of 6".
Done.
Having trouble with 2+ saves?
Exocrine now has Assault 12 or Assault 3 blast.
Fixed.
Flyers getting you down?
Exocrine's non-blast attack has skyfire.
All better.
Want to Sell more Warrior models?
-1 W. Cost: 15 instead of 30.
Sold!
With a rules set as detailed and complex as this, small adjustments can make a big difference.
Right now the dataslates are only hope. In retrospect, we should have seen the warning signs. The fact the rumors of them came so soon for tyranids makes me think GW would know what reaction this dex would get and the dataslates will essentially be our rule patches.
Nomnomifex wrote: Got the new codex in hand and have read through it, here's the most notable stuff (much has been mentioned before):
The Good:
-Lots of stuff got much cheaper - Old One Eye - 220, Zoans - 50, venomthropes - 45, Carnifex - 120, Mawloc - 140, Tyrannofex - 175
-Nids finally have access to plasma (other than pricy carnifex upgrade) with the exocrine
-Mawloc burrow got much better with the chance to get 2 str6 ap2 large blasts that ignore cover, though if he cant fit on the board after both blasts he mishaps
-Shadow in the warp drops ld by 3, and not just for psychic tests
-Hormagaunts get +3 to run distance, rather than highest of 3d6 -If you have the extra fast slots, spore mines are cheap distractions that can do heavy damage if ignored
-Adrenal glands give fleet AND furious charge now
-Zoanthropes come with warp blast by default and can take an additional power from the nids codex
-Venomthropes now give shrouded rather than separate 5+ cover save
-Tervigon gives gants within 12 counterattack
-Tervigon and carnifex up to initiative 2
-Rending claws ap 5 by default
-Have access to some haywire weapons
The Bad:
-4+ saves with only t5 on new flyers makes them very vulnerable to quad guns
-No torrent on crones flamer weapon and its 4 haywire missiles are one-shot only
-Scything talons no longer reroll 1s to hit (but are ap6)
-Swarmlord is forced to have the 18" synapse warlord trait (which brings him to where he was but minus a warlord trait now), no longer forces invuln rerolls, and his own invuln is still melee only
-No biomancy for any units
-Breaking synapse is far more punishing
-Hive Tyrants old adversary does not spread to friendly units and now only affects melee
-Trygon prime effectively lost 6 ranged shots (formerly had both a 12 shot and 6 shot weapon, now just 12) -Most bio artifacts seem too pricey for their power
-Tyranid Prime and Tervigon got big price hikes (45 and 35 respectively), and Tervigon now requires a squad of 30 gants to become a troop
-Still no cheap skyfire (only crone and flyrants have anything viable)
-Heavy section is very crowded, containing most of our best units (unless FAQ gives us expanded force org)
-Ymgarls, Doom, Pods, and Parasite gone
-Genestealers, rippers, and pyrovores are still abysmal. Raveners, warriors, and lictors still aren't viable.
The Questions:
-No mention of an expanded force organization chart or taking another tyranid detachment?
-No mention of not being able to take fortifications?
-Nothing about whether melee weapon effects stack (boneswords and rending claws namely)?
Still digesting everything, trying to decide how much I like all the changes. I definitely see zoanthropes, biovores, exocrines, and mawlocs being the meta units. Going to have to try out haruspex, new flyers, deathleaper, and old one eye to see how they play.
Most of this has been said already, the one thing I did pick up that you said about the Trygon Prime, they only had 12 shots before hand.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:Right now the dataslates are only hope. In retrospect, we should have seen the warning signs. The fact the rumors of them came so soon for tyranids makes me think GW would know what reaction this dex would get and the dataslates will essentially be our rule patches.
I think I'm going to shelve my nids for now. I'm cautiously optimistic that the vanguard data slate will make them playable. As it stands, from even a semi-competive standpoint, I don't think nids have what it takes to compete with even the middle of the pack armies.
Oh good lord.
