Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Imposter101 wrote:


I made a mathematical error. The response is to create a poor straw man at the end of your post. I'd avoid that in the future.

Thanks for the attempt at being patronising, but your sky-is-falling mistake wasn't about maths alone, as anyone can see.

yes, there are problems, but people are focusing on them alone, and a clearer picture will emerge in time, as they have with other codices.

I'm sorry, but it's hard not to focus on the negatives when the grave majority of the changes brought with this codex are negatives, and now affect almost every aspect of the codex in a negative way. We already have the clearer picture. We have unit stats, point costs, rules, psychic powers and warlord traits. The positives are almost entirely points decreases, and while these could be good they are almost entirely negated by the tide of unwanted and unneeded nerfs and removals. You've also returned to the ad-hom, a departure from your straw man. The again it always seems like generalising criticism as overblown retorhic is an easy thing to do.

Do people have to keep using fallacies?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Therion wrote:
Come on. There's always someone at every tactica or other debate about competitive units and armies telling others to simply play better, and that the reason people aren't having success with some universally craptastic units is because they don't know what they are doing Somehow to these people 40K is so deep and complicated that in the right hands every army is a GT winner, and noone can form an opinion about a unit or an army book without playing with it atleast 76 times.

I miss the days when someone would respond to a bad list or Codex with "Use Tactics!", as if that meant anything at all.

"Git gud" - /d2g/,/vg/

 hyv3mynd wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 L0rdF1end wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:
MVB did a good first glance here:
http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com/2014/01/tyranids-early-reaction-from-long-time.html?m=1

My words not his: if you're a competitive gamer, the sky has fallen for nids. The changes to deployment (drop pods removed), instinctive behavior (units flee without taking casualties, or inflict casualties on themselves), psychic power access, every single artifact is useless or overcosted, and unit nerfs make this new codex utter garbage.

If you're a beer and pretzels gamer or modeler/painter, great have fun with it. Horde nids couldn't be played in tournament time limits before and the price reductions only make this worse.

I can't wait to pull this post out in a months time when people realise that the point reduction alone made Nids competitive.
Nids don't need an uber stupid artifact to make them good.
I think we'll see NIds again as much as we did when 6th first landed, they were never going to be the "Go To" dex.

There are issues that force a slightly different list i feel but i fully expect it to still have a competitive edge.

QFT
Oh crap, the talking heads of the internet said something... They MUST be right....
Competitive 40k is a joke to begin with otherwise they wouldn't need to reformat the core rules every 2 months in order to hold an event so I have to laugh at the people who form opinions based on the game as if it was balanced like chess. He may as well right a review on competitive Yahtzee as far as I am concerned.

Neither of them have even read the book in it's entirety yet, let alone let it digest for a week. I still don't see the synapse thing as being as big an issue that some of these guys are.

Mock the competitive scene all you want. It won't stop the scene or culture. On my personal schedule, I can get 1 casual game a month and 3 tournament games. That's all I have time for and that's what I must prepare for. There are hundreds of players who enjoy the competitive 40k scene and invest thousands of dollars into traveling to events. Just because the game is intended for beer and pretzels basement gamers, don't belittle a group who plays it a different way.

Who needs weeks to digest this information and play test really? I keep hearing this but it's a myth. Almost every decent unit in the army got objectively worse either via point cost, removal of special rules, abilities, or wargear. Done, digested. Some models received a points reduction. Here's news from the competitive scene for you basement beer and pretzel guys: horde nids could not finish games in tournament time limits before, adding 20% more models actually makes this worse. Add in a whole new self-destructive IB system to make it worse.

How many other armies will literally self-destruct if you eliminate 4 key units? We aren't talking vacuums here. We're saying watch what happens when a 6 wave serpent or triptide list focuses down synapse on a flank on turn 1. Most of the army is ld6/7. Lurkers will flee the table 50% of the time with a failed leadership test. Feeders will eat themselves.

This army now causes more damage to itself than any army in the game. This is usually used as a balancing factor to powerful units, but everything got worse! Hormagaunts lost their rerolls of 1. Trygons lost all rerolls. Hive guard dropped in BS and went up in cost. Tervigons lost a boatload of abilities and went up in cost.

You can ride around on your white horses all day chirping about reduced costs and play testing and vacuums. It won't change the fact that they took a suffering army and made it worse. The warlord table is a joke. The psychic powers are mediocre at best with no guarantees that you can get anything good at all. The IB chart causes self-damage or fleeing 50% of the time! A grot on a quad gun can kill any of the FA fliers in 1 phase. You can just pick up a flyrant or crone the first time a single skyray looks at it.

You can cling to your denial and hyperbole all you want. It may surprise you that some hobbyists have a decent enough grasp of the game and its dynamics to come to an accurate conclusion without playing dozens of games with a new army.

Blah blah blah...

I don't know what's worse, that you believe anything you wrote, the fact you wrote it, or the fact I read it.

Based on the codex entries I have read I have about 5 ideas for competitive lists.

The codex is actually looking really very good. I guess the 1 list you want to play though is off the cards.

I'm going to really enjoy this dex, quite frankly it's 100x closer to what nids should be than the last codex.

Shingen wrote:


Blah blah blah...

I don't know what's worse, that you believe anything you wrote, the fact you wrote it, or the fact I read it.

Based on the codex entries I have read I have about 5 ideas for competitive lists.

The codex is actually looking really very good. I guess the 1 list you want to play though is off the cards.

I'm going to really enjoy this dex, quite frankly it's 100x closer to what nids should be than the last codex.

What are you most excited to try? Which units/alterations do you think will bode well in competitive play?

 Red Corsair wrote:
Oh look more anecdotal evidence you say?

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Anyway, he listed the clear differences. It's objectively worse off than it was before. But I see we've shifted from "You don't know yet!" to "But you should have known as they were under costed!" right back to "We don't know yet!" again.

Those goal posts look heavy man. You're going to tire yourself out.

Shingen wrote:

Based on the codex entries I have read I have about 5 ideas for competitive lists.

The codex is actually looking really very good. I guess the 1 list you want to play though is off the cards.

I'm going to really enjoy this dex, quite frankly it's 100x closer to what nids should be than the last codex.

It's okay, you're just in denial. You'll come around and be as disgusted as us too soon.

Shingen wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 L0rdF1end wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:
MVB did a good first glance here:
http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com/2014/01/tyranids-early-reaction-from-long-time.html?m=1

My words not his: if you're a competitive gamer, the sky has fallen for nids. The changes to deployment (drop pods removed), instinctive behavior (units flee without taking casualties, or inflict casualties on themselves), psychic power access, every single artifact is useless or overcosted, and unit nerfs make this new codex utter garbage.

If you're a beer and pretzels gamer or modeler/painter, great have fun with it. Horde nids couldn't be played in tournament time limits before and the price reductions only make this worse.

I can't wait to pull this post out in a months time when people realise that the point reduction alone made Nids competitive.
Nids don't need an uber stupid artifact to make them good.
I think we'll see NIds again as much as we did when 6th first landed, they were never going to be the "Go To" dex.

There are issues that force a slightly different list i feel but i fully expect it to still have a competitive edge.

QFT
Oh crap, the talking heads of the internet said something... They MUST be right....
Competitive 40k is a joke to begin with otherwise they wouldn't need to reformat the core rules every 2 months in order to hold an event so I have to laugh at the people who form opinions based on the game as if it was balanced like chess. He may as well right a review on competitive Yahtzee as far as I am concerned.

Neither of them have even read the book in it's entirety yet, let alone let it digest for a week. I still don't see the synapse thing as being as big an issue that some of these guys are.

Spoiler:

Mock the competitive scene all you want. It won't stop the scene or culture. On my personal schedule, I can get 1 casual game a month and 3 tournament games. That's all I have time for and that's what I must prepare for. There are hundreds of players who enjoy the competitive 40k scene and invest thousands of dollars into traveling to events. Just because the game is intended for beer and pretzels basement gamers, don't belittle a group who plays it a different way.

Who needs weeks to digest this information and play test really? I keep hearing this but it's a myth. Almost every decent unit in the army got objectively worse either via point cost, removal of special rules, abilities, or wargear. Done, digested. Some models received a points reduction. Here's news from the competitive scene for you basement beer and pretzel guys: horde nids could not finish games in tournament time limits before, adding 20% more models actually makes this worse. Add in a whole new self-destructive IB system to make it worse.

How many other armies will literally self-destruct if you eliminate 4 key units? We aren't talking vacuums here. We're saying watch what happens when a 6 wave serpent or triptide list focuses down synapse on a flank on turn 1. Most of the army is ld6/7. Lurkers will flee the table 50% of the time with a failed leadership test. Feeders will eat themselves.

This army now causes more damage to itself than any army in the game. This is usually used as a balancing factor to powerful units, but everything got worse! Hormagaunts lost their rerolls of 1. Trygons lost all rerolls. Hive guard dropped in BS and went up in cost. Tervigons lost a boatload of abilities and went up in cost.

You can ride around on your white horses all day chirping about reduced costs and play testing and vacuums. It won't change the fact that they took a suffering army and made it worse. The warlord table is a joke. The psychic powers are mediocre at best with no guarantees that you can get anything good at all. The IB chart causes self-damage or fleeing 50% of the time! A grot on a quad gun can kill any of the FA fliers in 1 phase. You can just pick up a flyrant or crone the first time a single skyray looks at it.

You can cling to your denial and hyperbole all you want. It may surprise you that some hobbyists have a decent enough grasp of the game and its dynamics to come to an accurate conclusion without playing dozens of games with a new army

.

Blah blah blah...

I don't know what's worse, that you believe anything you wrote, the fact you wrote it, or the fact I read it.

Based on the codex entries I have read I have about 5 ideas for competitive lists.

The codex is actually looking really very good. I guess the 1 list you want to play though is off the cards.

I'm going to really enjoy this dex, quite frankly it's 100x closer to what nids should be than the last codex.

"Instead of answering the opposing sides points, I'll ridicule his statements and act in an insulting and demeaning manner, as if he is completely and totally wrong in every way, but never point out how or why he is wrong."

I for one am super excited about the prospect of the Haruspex. T6 W5? Yes please. It also now has that OOE ability to generate extra attacks, and regenerates a wound after every combat phase... Doesn't sound too shabby? Also, its tongue has its own weapon profile and special rules, but I can't find the page. If it's a decent enough price, I may run a few on the regular.

 hyv3mynd wrote:

 Nem wrote:
The nerf on termagaunts not moving after spawning is not really a nerf unless you don't plan on moving the Tervigon in the same direction. They don't lose out on actual movement, now it's just move terv 6 spawn up to 6 rather than spawn up to 6 move 6 move terv 6, just streamlining for speed. Many listed nerfs are not as bad as many people are making out- not that some a're not bad - just they are being blown out of proportion, or misunderstanding how it will actually impact on the game.

So being able to spawn and assault to spawn and not assault is low impact? Have you ever played with tervigons? I got in 100 games or so with them in the last book and that's a huge deal.

How about tervigons not sharing toxin sacs, adrenal glands, or their leadership value with nearby gaunts anymore? Low impact too? Oh wait they balanced it with a 35pt price increase and doubled the range of their synaptic explosion. And went from 3 psy power rolls to 1.

Definitely overreacting.

I'm convinced the people holding out and defending the codex are the ones who haven't read all the actual leaks and real rules yet.

The Tervigon is worse now than before, by a large margin. The question is... by how much? The Tervigon was ungodly before, and won tournaments on its own in a bad book. Now, it will have better support but itself is not nearly as good. Will it be worth taking? I'm not sure. It's certainly no longer a no brainer or an auto include. But with the loss of the buffs, it has one of two roles now. Run straight up, screw the gants around it, and go hit things. Pair with Carnifex for cover as it gives synapse, is scoring and is tough. This isn't a great option. Other option I see is to have it kinda isolated in the backfield. All spawns move away and up field while it holds an objective by itself. This could be viable, just keep it very cheap. Frankly, I may buy it Adrenal Glands and nothing else. Same cost as before, but not as good, however it can spawn still and has fleet if really needs to assault. Also, it may now outflank and spawn. Niche yes, but every bit helps after that nerf.

But even thinking of the Tervigon's viability as a troops choice, here's another question. What the hell else? Rippers, stealers and Warriors are literally made out of nope. Gants are ok but you need Synapse. They could hang around in the back though and do ok, I suppose. Hormagants are good and cheap as a running screen and I like the idea. However, they aren't all that great at scoring. On the other hand, they are actually more reliable scoring than gants if out of synapse. Failed that IB on either? Both can kinda stay still on a 4+ (Hormies must charge if they can. If nothings in range, just don't move and stay put.) On a 1-3, Termagants fall back. Hormagants take wounds and likely morale, which they could pass, so more likely to stay. A backfield prime with Biovores could help with synapse though. Funny thing is though? 5 genestealers are far better at holding objectives than anything but the Tervigon... wow. Troops will be the big question mark this codex, everything else is just fine.

Eyjio wrote:

Shingen wrote:

Based on the codex entries I have read I have about 5 ideas for competitive lists.

The codex is actually looking really very good. I guess the 1 list you want to play though is off the cards.

I'm going to really enjoy this dex, quite frankly it's 100x closer to what nids should be than the last codex.

It's okay, you're just in denial. You'll come around and be as disgusted as us too soon.

Actually I won't.

I never used to used tervigons or doom and the units I usually use are better and cheaper. The New dex is perfect from that standpoint.

If you think Nids are all about pods, doom and tervigons then you might as well go play space marines.

 Eldarain wrote:

Shingen wrote:


Blah blah blah...

I don't know what's worse, that you believe anything you wrote, the fact you wrote it, or the fact I read it.

Based on the codex entries I have read I have about 5 ideas for competitive lists.

The codex is actually looking really very good. I guess the 1 list you want to play though is off the cards.

I'm going to really enjoy this dex, quite frankly it's 100x closer to what nids should be than the last codex.

What are you most excited to try? Which units/alterations do you think will bode well in competitive play?

I agree, it looks like the nids will play very different, which is what I am most excited for.

Shingen wrote:

Eyjio wrote:

Shingen wrote:

Based on the codex entries I have read I have about 5 ideas for competitive lists.

The codex is actually looking really very good. I guess the 1 list you want to play though is off the cards.

I'm going to really enjoy this dex, quite frankly it's 100x closer to what nids should be than the last codex.

It's okay, you're just in denial. You'll come around and be as disgusted as us too soon.

Actually I won't.

I never used to used tervigons or doom and the units I usually use are better and cheaper. The New dex is perfect from that standpoint.

If you think Nids are all about pods, doom and tervigons then you might as well go play space marines.

So what you're really saying is you have 5 ideas for lists which in absolutely no way stand up in competitive gaming? Hell, I'm not even mad about the loss of doom and I don't mind too much about pods, but if you think the Tervigon nerf hasn't killed the troops of this codex, you're insane.

 IcedAnimals wrote:
@ Therion. Speaking of the imperial guard book. How many tanks do they have in the current book that are actually missing models right now? Because unless they get new ones I think the guard book might end up losing a lot of options.

I expect the guard book to change about as much as this current Nid book just did. More of a side grade, some serious WTFs but since guard are a shooting based army they will come out of it just fine.

I wont be playing nids competitively. I never did before and this book isn't going to make me start. But I will definitely still play them as a for fun army every now and then. especially since I just bought the heirophant. The ability to use it as a 20 man transport that is insanely hard to stop from reaching your lines really helps out in a nid army. Most of our super heavies are pretty awesome honestly. And since fortifications are worthless(to us) you might as well take what you can get.

How fine they'll do is up in the air. If it's just a bland sidegrade that loses the Vendettas and some tank options and replaces them with some Haruspex / Mutilators -class garbage the IG are screwed

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Oh look more anecdotal evidence you say?

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Anyway, he listed the clear differences. It's objectively worse off than it was before. But I see we've shifted from "You don't know yet!" to "But you should have known as they were under costed!" right back to "We don't know yet!" again.

Those goal posts look heavy man. You're going to tire yourself out.

Sorry, let me make it clearer. I haven't shifted any post, I am saying we have know solid proof how the new nids will play as an army. BIG difference from saying that the tervigon change (which it clearly has) should have been expected. If anybody expected the tervigon to get better, I seriously question their common sense. I still think there are multiple viable lists in the new book from what I have seen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eyjio wrote:

Shingen wrote:

Eyjio wrote:

Shingen wrote:

Based on the codex entries I have read I have about 5 ideas for competitive lists.

The codex is actually looking really very good. I guess the 1 list you want to play though is off the cards.

I'm going to really enjoy this dex, quite frankly it's 100x closer to what nids should be than the last codex.

It's okay, you're just in denial. You'll come around and be as disgusted as us too soon.

Actually I won't.

I never used to used tervigons or doom and the units I usually use are better and cheaper. The New dex is perfect from that standpoint.

If you think Nids are all about pods, doom and tervigons then you might as well go play space marines.

So what you're really saying is you have 5 ideas for lists which in absolutely no way stand up in competitive gaming? Hell, I'm not even mad about the loss of doom and I don't mind too much about pods, but if you think the Tervigon nerf hasn't killed the troops of this codex, you're insane.

Sorry but tervigons were a crutch, so it's quite revealing that you admit you can't win without them or maybe it just dates you. There was a time before tervigons when nids were quite viable.

Did anyone notice that the leaked Unit Profiles, Tervigons are not listed as Characters? And thus, Nids may be the only army capable of fielding an army without a Warlord? Or there may be a restriction that a Tervigon cannot be the mandatory HQ?

 Red Corsair wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Oh look more anecdotal evidence you say?

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Anyway, he listed the clear differences. It's objectively worse off than it was before. But I see we've shifted from "You don't know yet!" to "But you should have known as they were under costed!" right back to "We don't know yet!" again.

Those goal posts look heavy man. You're going to tire yourself out.

Sorry, let me make it clearer. I haven't shifted any post, I am saying we have know solid proof how the new nids will play as an army. BIG difference from saying that the tervigon change (which it clearly has) should have been expected. If anybody expected the tervigon to get better, I seriously question their common sense. I still think there are multiple viable lists in the new book from what I have seen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eyjio wrote:

Shingen wrote:

Eyjio wrote:

Shingen wrote:

Based on the codex entries I have read I have about 5 ideas for competitive lists.

The codex is actually looking really very good. I guess the 1 list you want to play though is off the cards.

I'm going to really enjoy this dex, quite frankly it's 100x closer to what nids should be than the last codex.

It's okay, you're just in denial. You'll come around and be as disgusted as us too soon.

Actually I won't.

I never used to used tervigons or doom and the units I usually use are better and cheaper. The New dex is perfect from that standpoint.

If you think Nids are all about pods, doom and tervigons then you might as well go play space marines.

So what you're really saying is you have 5 ideas for lists which in absolutely no way stand up in competitive gaming? Hell, I'm not even mad about the loss of doom and I don't mind too much about pods, but if you think the Tervigon nerf hasn't killed the troops of this codex, you're insane.

Sorry but tervigons were a crutch, so it's quite revealing that you admit you can't win without them or maybe it just dates you. There was a time before tervigons when nids were quite viable.

But we are no longer in 4th,3rd or 2nd edition Corsair.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
I think the idea, "What could have been" sums up why their is so much disappointment in this codex. Nothing changed from the 5th codex for the better except for the point cost. This codex feels cheap and lazy because it is cheap and lazy. The most thought went into making synapse worse...The artifacts are laughably bad, I can't see taking any of them ever. Not even in a for fun list, because the basic upgrades are better than the artifact upgrades. The warlord traits are bad for warlord traits, which doesn't say much but at the same time speaks volumes.

Tyranids got worse with this release but will still be able to field armies just fine and still win in a noncompetitive environment. I decided that I will still play my bugs despite this codex and how sick it makes me feel to have another army being just gutted with a release, my other being BT. By that I mean gutted of any potential, all the hope there was from seeing how awesome a lot of the 6th codices have been torn out leaving me feeling just...sad. I was hoping to at least see more bio-morphs than two for basic units again, maybe not the list we had in 4th but at least something better than TWO. I wanted to see some innovation and instead I just got an FAQ update to bring the codex in line with 6th edition. The worst part is there is just nothing to be excited about with the codex. I don't care how powerful or weak it is going to be in the current meta, I care that it is just...boring and bland. There is nothing that has me excited to try out or play with, it is all the same crap I have been playing for years now with a couple of new units that are boring or are looking pretty bad. The Exocrine is boring as gak, it does one thing and it will do that one thing all game long and never deviate from point and shoot. The Haurspex looks interesting but I just don't think it will be very good.

So now I have Tyranids and SoB with FAQ codices and my BT were just gutted with being turned into black Ultramarines. It is just getting hard to get excited about 40k anymore with half of my armies being taken in a "new" direction.

I feel your pain wholeheartedly. My 2 armies are Nids and CSM, so I understand completely what you are saying.

 HiveFleetCollossus wrote:
Working on translating some of the Spanish with Google Translate. Not hard, just time consuming. (You guys can do it too...)

Some of the Spanish is weirdly translated.

- Exocrine WS3 BS3 S6 T6 W5 I3 A3 S3+ L7

Biomorphs : Bioplasma Cannon, (something spanish , I think maybe crushing claws/sything talons)

Special Rules: IB ( hunt ) , Fearless

~ Symbiotic Aiming: If does not move Exocrine During the movement phase , gain +1 to its ability to * something * ( balistic skill )

- Haruspex WS3 BS3 S6 T6 W5 I3 A3 S3+ L7

Biomorphs : Crushing Claws , prehensile tongue ( Weapon found on pg 65 . ) , Acid blood

Special Rules: IB ( Feed) , Fearless

~ Beast feeding : If a Haruspex inflicts at least one wound not saved in the Assault phase , at the end of phase one gets wound which you have lost . ( Gains one lost wound)

~ Ravenous Hunger : During the turn that a Haruspex charges each unsaved wound it inflicts in combat allows you to immediately make an additional attack . Further attacks can not generate more attacks . The Haridas causing instant death only generate an additional attack (Any idea to what this sentence means? ) . Wounds inflicted by hammer Fury , acid blood or tail biomorphic not benefit from this special rule .


I'll try to get more to you guys soon.

That last rule would possible reference the Prehensible tongue which likely causes ID (dragging prey into the mouth. Hammer of Wrath, Acid Blood and Tail Biomorphs do not generate additional attacks.

Heh, I only just realized the Tervigon had its self-destruct-on-gaunts bubble increased to 12" ... so basically if you want to use a Tervigon as synapse, don't run gaunts, which it's supposed to be used for.

It's literally a pure fluff unit now (Which in GW terms means it isn't allowed to be at all "good" at the same time). The nice thing is in casual gaming we can just retcon it; it's very easy to lol in the face of horrible rules writers at GW and play it the way it should be played instead. That doesn't do anything to help people who want to play Tyranids at the local game store, or at local tournaments, or at organized play events, or at organized narrative events, or at grand tournaments, etc., however, and that's unfortunate. GW isn't very good at building lists for the majority of its constituency, only for a very narrow niche of beer and pretzels organized group gamers who can establish acceptable play memes and standards.

 Deadshot wrote:
Did anyone notice that the leaked Unit Profiles, Tervigons are not listed as Characters? And thus, Nids may be the only army capable of fielding an army without a Warlord? Or there may be a restriction that a Tervigon cannot be the mandatory HQ?

Just saw this. Quite a rules quandary. It makes sense though that Tervigons are no longer characters. I kind of sympathized with my opponent when I could smash his Sergeant in a challenge while bidding time for my spawned gants to join the fight.

I am happy that I've never bashed mr. Crudacce 5th ed codex, and I regret pre ordering the new one. I'd rather still play the old one with friends using ymgarls, mycetic spores to throw around doom zoanthropes and carnifexes. Fun fact, I have a few Mawlocks in the work, I prefer the look over Trygons also it was somehow obvious for me they would be good in the new codex. I also don't have mycetic spore models only use nid terrain to represent them. So, no dissapointed powergamer as I could own a few people with Mawlocks, no spent too much on conversions butthurt, just the new codex looks less fun and nidy than the last also castrated for the sake of addons, in addition to probably being weaker power - wise. The only good thing about it so far is the uphill battle factor, I tend to enjoy hard mode.

btw I didn't use Tervigons a lot but Tervigon spam was a very fluffy kind of list, imo. Just taking biomancy from them would be enough of a nerf, assuming "can't take allies" and assault oriented nids needed any.

 HiveFleetCollossus wrote:
Lol. More Google translate crap. Think I'll stop here.

Carnifex special rule (suckily traslated):

Living Ram: when this miniature hammer attack charges into anger instead of just 1 attack. (Any idea what this means?)

It says Carnifexes have Rage, or do D3 Hammer of Wrath when under Rage I think. Likely the translation is

When this model declares a charge while under the Rage Special Rule, a Carnifex inflicts D3 Hammer of Wrath Hits instead of 1.

Either that or anger is a mistranslation for combat.

 Imposter101 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Oh look more anecdotal evidence you say?

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Anyway, he listed the clear differences. It's objectively worse off than it was before. But I see we've shifted from "You don't know yet!" to "But you should have known as they were under costed!" right back to "We don't know yet!" again.

Those goal posts look heavy man. You're going to tire yourself out.

Sorry, let me make it clearer. I haven't shifted any post, I am saying we have know solid proof how the new nids will play as an army. BIG difference from saying that the tervigon change (which it clearly has) should have been expected. If anybody expected the tervigon to get better, I seriously question their common sense. I still think there are multiple viable lists in the new book from what I have seen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eyjio wrote:

Shingen wrote:

Eyjio wrote:

Shingen wrote:

Based on the codex entries I have read I have about 5 ideas for competitive lists.

The codex is actually looking really very good. I guess the 1 list you want to play though is off the cards.

I'm going to really enjoy this dex, quite frankly it's 100x closer to what nids should be than the last codex.

It's okay, you're just in denial. You'll come around and be as disgusted as us too soon.

Actually I won't.

I never used to used tervigons or doom and the units I usually use are better and cheaper. The New dex is perfect from that standpoint.

If you think Nids are all about pods, doom and tervigons then you might as well go play space marines.

So what you're really saying is you have 5 ideas for lists which in absolutely no way stand up in competitive gaming? Hell, I'm not even mad about the loss of doom and I don't mind too much about pods, but if you think the Tervigon nerf hasn't killed the troops of this codex, you're insane.

Sorry but tervigons were a crutch, so it's quite revealing that you admit you can't win without them or maybe it just dates you. There was a time before tervigons when nids were quite viable.

But we are no longer in 4th,3rd or 2nd edition Corsair.

Or 5th, which the last incarnation of tervigons was written. Thanks for keeping pace though.

 Battlesong wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
I think the idea, "What could have been" sums up why their is so much disappointment in this codex. Nothing changed from the 5th codex for the better except for the point cost. This codex feels cheap and lazy because it is cheap and lazy. The most thought went into making synapse worse...The artifacts are laughably bad, I can't see taking any of them ever. Not even in a for fun list, because the basic upgrades are better than the artifact upgrades. The warlord traits are bad for warlord traits, which doesn't say much but at the same time speaks volumes.

Tyranids got worse with this release but will still be able to field armies just fine and still win in a noncompetitive environment. I decided that I will still play my bugs despite this codex and how sick it makes me feel to have another army being just gutted with a release, my other being BT. By that I mean gutted of any potential, all the hope there was from seeing how awesome a lot of the 6th codices have been torn out leaving me feeling just...sad. I was hoping to at least see more bio-morphs than two for basic units again, maybe not the list we had in 4th but at least something better than TWO. I wanted to see some innovation and instead I just got an FAQ update to bring the codex in line with 6th edition. The worst part is there is just nothing to be excited about with the codex. I don't care how powerful or weak it is going to be in the current meta, I care that it is just...boring and bland. There is nothing that has me excited to try out or play with, it is all the same crap I have been playing for years now with a couple of new units that are boring or are looking pretty bad. The Exocrine is boring as gak, it does one thing and it will do that one thing all game long and never deviate from point and shoot. The Haurspex looks interesting but I just don't think it will be very good.

So now I have Tyranids and SoB with FAQ codices and my BT were just gutted with being turned into black Ultramarines. It is just getting hard to get excited about 40k anymore with half of my armies being taken in a "new" direction.

I feel your pain wholeheartedly. My 2 armies are Nids and CSM, so I understand completely what you are saying.

Hey I have Nids, CSM, CD, Eldar, Sob, and BT(Black Ultramarines) Every army I have has been updated for 6th and it ranges from bad, Nids, to decent, CSM and SoB, to great!, Eldar, to non-existant, BT. The worst part is? I don't really play the Eldar because they were given to me by a friend who was getting out of the game and I just don't care for them. Nids and BT have always been my favorite armies and...GW has not been kind to me lately. Hopefully my next project being Orks I can see if I can finally be thrown a bone!

 Red Corsair wrote:
Sorry but tervigons were a crutch, so it's quite revealing that you admit you can't win without them or maybe it just dates you. There was a time before tervigons when nids were quite viable.

Are you playing 6th edition? It would explain a lot if you're not.

Please, show me a winning army with the 5th edition codex that didn't use Tervigons.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
How about tervigons not sharing toxin sacs, adrenal glands, or their leadership value with nearby gaunts anymore? Low impact too? Oh wait they balanced it with a 35pt price increase and doubled the range of their synaptic explosion. And went from 3 psy power rolls to 1.

You could also look at the old Tervigon as having provided very cheap poison and furious charge to all of your gaunts (20 pts per Tervigon split between all the gaunts on the field -- which for me was normally 60 after spawning) . Now to get the same benifit you have to pay +4 points a model for toxic sacs & adrenal glands on each guant...which increases thier cost from 5.66ppm (40 pts for two tervies divided over 60 models) in 5th to 8ppm in 6th (or 6ppm if you only cared about poison). How I see it is that termigaunts didn't get cheaper...they actually got more expensive.

rollawaythestone wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Did anyone notice that the leaked Unit Profiles, Tervigons are not listed as Characters? And thus, Nids may be the only army capable of fielding an army without a Warlord? Or there may be a restriction that a Tervigon cannot be the mandatory HQ?

Just saw this. Quite a rules quandary. It makes sense though that Tervigons are no longer characters. I kind of sympathized with my opponent when I could smash his Sergeant in a challenge while bidding time for my spawned gants to join the fight.

I see this as a way of Nids denying a VP for Slay the Warlord, but also hampering themselves by denying access to Strategic Traits.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Or 5th, which the last incarnation of tervigons was written. Thanks for keeping pace though.

Name anyone ever who won anything at all with a 5e nid list who didn't use Tervigons. Hell, write the list here.

I'll give you a hint:

Ready?

You sure?

THERE ISN'T ONE. The ENTIRE codex relies on the capability to spawn troops. Without that, the troops get gunned down by anyone with a brain in 2 turns.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Sorry but tervigons were a crutch, so it's quite revealing that you admit you can't win without them or maybe it just dates you. There was a time before tervigons when nids were quite viable.

Are you playing 6th edition? It would explain a lot if you're not.

Please, show me a winning army with the 5th edition codex that didn't use Tervigons.

Sorry, I meant tyranids were viable prior to having access to them. Yes I admit in 5th they were a no brainer, and most times necessary but does that mean they should be relied upon forever? I welcome a new era that doesn't rely on one broken unit.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yikes. Just read the Tervigon page. Hive Mind powers or nothing. No moving/shooting for spawned Termagants. Doesn't sound fun.

Think of the narratives!! That's where the fun is.

rollawaythestone wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Did anyone notice that the leaked Unit Profiles, Tervigons are not listed as Characters? And thus, Nids may be the only army capable of fielding an army without a Warlord? Or there may be a restriction that a Tervigon cannot be the mandatory HQ?

Just saw this. Quite a rules quandary. It makes sense though that Tervigons are no longer characters. I kind of sympathized with my opponent when I could smash his Sergeant in a challenge while bidding time for my spawned gants to join the fight.

This is actually kind of spitefully awesome. It might be a legitimate strategy to go without a Warlord, since it can be hard for nids to get the Warlord VP from an opponent, whereas our own Warlords are relatively easy to poach since they often have to be leading the pack, and unprotected. They'll FAQ it eventually, though.

Has anyone seen a comprehensive list of which models can take the awful bio-relics? Tyrants and Primes for sure... but how about Trygon Primes, Tervigons, and so on?

Shingen wrote:

Eyjio wrote:

Shingen wrote:

Based on the codex entries I have read I have about 5 ideas for competitive lists.

The codex is actually looking really very good. I guess the 1 list you want to play though is off the cards.

I'm going to really enjoy this dex, quite frankly it's 100x closer to what nids should be than the last codex.

It's okay, you're just in denial. You'll come around and be as disgusted as us too soon.

Actually I won't.

I never used to used tervigons or doom and the units I usually use are better and cheaper. The New dex is perfect from that standpoint.

If you think Nids are all about pods, doom and tervigons then you might as well go play space marines.

Yes lets remove possible playstyles and tactics, because you don't like / don't use them. Dumbing down ftw.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Think of the narratives!! That's where the fun is.

I'm getting my forge ready! My narrative forge that is!

Eyjio wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Or 5th, which the last incarnation of tervigons was written. Thanks for keeping pace though.

Name anyone ever who won anything at all with a 5e nid list who didn't use Tervigons. Hell, write the list here.

I'll give you a hint:

Ready?

You sure?

THERE ISN'T ONE. The ENTIRE codex relies on the capability to spawn troops. Without that, the troops get gunned down by anyone with a brain in 2 turns.

Wow, I really don't explain my points well enough on the web. I admit it. See the above. I am not saying tervigons weren't good or required in 5th, I am saying it was bad for the army IMO that they were an auto include. There was a time when they didn't exist and nids were fine. I am suggesting, heaven forbid, that this may be the case once again.

*edit for SP

The most hilarious thing, to me, is that instead of making Warriors really good in order to sell more, they just nerfed Tervigons so hard that Warriors seem like a viable option in comparison.

I imagine the conversation went something like this,

"We need to really push this new warrior kit"
"Well, with the Tervigon being such a hot item, I imagine we'll really have to buff them to make them desirable"
"Are you crazy? Buff Warriors? They're overpowered beyond belief as it is!"
"Yeah, I suppose you're right. So what do we do?"
"Clearly we've got to make sure no other troop choice is any better than Warriors. I mean, we've gotta show the other codices SOME mercy"

 Red Corsair wrote:

Eyjio wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Or 5th, which the last incarnation of tervigons was written. Thanks for keeping pace though.

Name anyone ever who won anything at all with a 5e nid list who didn't use Tervigons. Hell, write the list here.

I'll give you a hint:

Ready?

You sure?

THERE ISN'T ONE. The ENTIRE codex relies on the capability to spawn troops. Without that, the troops get gunned down by anyone with a brain in 2 turns.

Wow, I really don't explain my points well enough on the web. I admit it. See the above. I am not saying tervigons weren't good or required in 5th, I am saying it was bad for the army IMO that they were an auto include. There was a time when they didn't exist and nids were fine. I am suggesting, heaen forbid, that this may be the case once again.

Well, I wish what you just said was true, but I cannot see how. I can't make a list even on par with my 5e ones, let alone good enough to not need Tervigons. Troops have basically become more expensive as they need poison now, hormagaunts have... I mean, what's even the point of them any more? They're strictly worse than termagants other than the run which isn't even good alone. Heck, I can take some 4e lists and THEY'RE more expensive. It's just a mess.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Wow, I really don't explain my points well enough on the web. I admit it. See the above. I am not saying tervigons weren't good or required in 5th, I am saying it was bad for the army IMO that they were an auto include. There was a time when they didn't exist and nids were fine. I am suggesting, heaen forbid, that this may be the case once again.

Well… no. Not really. Cast your mind back…

*harp noises*

In 3rd Tyranids didn't work because of "Shoot the Big Ones", which really just meant "Shoot the Good Ones", because you'd just kill the Carnifexes before they did anything. Most Tyranid armies abused the hell out of the "mutable genus" rules to get a minimum amount of species (usually 3) to maximise the amount of Rending Claw mutants you could have in a unit of Gaunts. So Tyranid armies had three units - Hive Tyrants, Rending Claw Mutant Hordes, Carnifexes. Sometimes Tyrant Guard. No one took Warriors, Lictors, Biovores, Raveners - anything really - because they were all junk. So no, Tyranids were not ok in 3rd.

So 4th came along, and with it GW's desire to sell their brand new plastic Carnifex. This was the time of the Nidzilla (and the original Stealer Shock). Unfortunately, that’s all they could do. Try playing ‘Nids in any other way resulted in a sub-par army that couldn’t really do anything. If you weren’t packing 2 HT’s and 4-6 Carnifexes (or hadn’t gone full Stealer Shock) then you weren’t going to have much luck. No one took Warriors, Lictors, Biovores, Raveners – anything really – because they were all junk. So no, Tyranids were not ok in 4th.

And in 5th… well we know about that already. They couldn’t get by without a couple of units (Tervigons, Hive Guard). Stealer Shock still worked, but Nidzilla was basically dead in the water with the way ‘Fexes worked (or didn’t work). Spores could mitigate some factors, but then the FAQ ruined a significant portion of that (Primes not being able to join units pre-game). So, again, Tyranids were not ok in 5th.

But now everything’s cheaper (even if most things are objectively worse), so I guess ‘Nids are ok in 6th, right?

 Red Corsair wrote:

Eyjio wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Or 5th, which the last incarnation of tervigons was written. Thanks for keeping pace though.

Name anyone ever who won anything at all with a 5e nid list who didn't use Tervigons. Hell, write the list here.

I'll give you a hint:

Ready?

You sure?

THERE ISN'T ONE. The ENTIRE codex relies on the capability to spawn troops. Without that, the troops get gunned down by anyone with a brain in 2 turns.

Wow, I really don't explain my points well enough on the web. I admit it. See the above. I am not saying tervigons weren't good or required in 5th, I am saying it was bad for the army IMO that they were an auto include. There was a time when they didn't exist and nids were fine. I am suggesting, heaven forbid, that this may be the case once again.

*edit for SP

The issue is that Troops got significantly more expensive overall, and harder to keep around (12" bubble of doom on the Tervigon). With 5/6 games relying on capturing the objectives it turns Nids into a "table the other guy before he kills all our Synapse" army. Which doesn't sound all that fun to me.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
The most hilarious thing, to me, is that instead of making Warriors really good in order to sell more, they just nerfed Tervigons so hard that Warriors seem like a viable option in comparison.

I imagine the conversation went something like this,

"We need to really push this new warrior kit"
"Well, with the Tervigon being such a hot item, I imagine we'll really have to buff them to make them desirable"
"Are you crazy? Buff Warriors? They're overpowered beyond belief as it is!"
"Yeah, I suppose you're right. So what do we do?"
"Clearly we've got to make sure no other troop choice is any better than Warriors. I mean, we've gotta show the other codices SOME mercy"

It really must have been something like that. They even hit Rippers with the nerf bat a few times, they were clearly overpowered.

Eyjio wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Eyjio wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Or 5th, which the last incarnation of tervigons was written. Thanks for keeping pace though.

Name anyone ever who won anything at all with a 5e nid list who didn't use Tervigons. Hell, write the list here.

I'll give you a hint:

Ready?

You sure?

THERE ISN'T ONE. The ENTIRE codex relies on the capability to spawn troops. Without that, the troops get gunned down by anyone with a brain in 2 turns.

Wow, I really don't explain my points well enough on the web. I admit it. See the above. I am not saying tervigons weren't good or required in 5th, I am saying it was bad for the army IMO that they were an auto include. There was a time when they didn't exist and nids were fine. I am suggesting, heaen forbid, that this may be the case once again.

Well, I wish what you just said was true, but I cannot see how. I can't make a list even on par with my 5e ones, let alone good enough to not need Tervigons. Troops have basically become more expensive as they need poison now, hormagaunts have... I mean, what's even the point of them any more? They're strictly worse than termagants other than the run which isn't even good alone. Heck, I can take some 4e lists and THEY'RE more expensive. It's just a mess.

Maybe I am way off base, but honestly I don't think you need the tervigon. A 4ppm you can grab 40 termigants for 160. How many games did you spawn 40 gants? I am guessing your better off buying them rather then making them in game. Hide synapse using a single prime as a fail safe so you don't get screwed and don't lose it. Poison was great but its not required at all. heck you can hide 10 devil gants in each brick of 30 now making them much more shooty.

The changes to Rippers had to be conscious, right? That means that the person who wrote this genuinely thought Rippers were too good or they don’t understand their own rules.

Both prospects are frightening.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Maybe I am way off base, but honestly I don't think you need the tervigon. A 4ppm you can grab 40 termigants for 160. How many games did you spawn 40 gants? I am guessing your better off buying them rather then making them in game. Hide synapse using a single prime as a fail safe so you don't get screwed and don't lose it. Poison was great but its not required at all. heck you can hide 10 devil gants in each brick of 30 now making them much more shooty.

So your solution to not taking a 195 point (base) unit is to take 160 points of gants plus 125 point Synapse HQ and leave that 285 points (without upgrades) in the backfield?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Maybe I am way off base, but honestly I don't think you need the tervigon. A 4ppm you can grab 40 termigants for 160. How many games did you spawn 40 gants? I am guessing your better off buying them rather then making them in game. Hide synapse using a single prime as a fail safe so you don't get screwed and don't lose it. Poison was great but its not required at all. heck you can hide 10 devil gants in each brick of 30 now making them much more shooty.

So your solution to not taking a 195 point (base) unit is to take 160 points of gants plus 125 point Synapse HQ and leave that 285 points (without upgrades) in the backfield?

Obviously there will be more to it.

Everything else seems okay(-ish), but those changes to instinctive behaviour seem really worrying and potentially crippling. Tyranids are basically unable to leave an unit sitting on a backfield objective. And if the enemy guns down your synapse creatures, the entire army just folds. I don't understand what they were thinking.

 Red Corsair wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Maybe I am way off base, but honestly I don't think you need the tervigon. A 4ppm you can grab 40 termigants for 160. How many games did you spawn 40 gants? I am guessing your better off buying them rather then making them in game. Hide synapse using a single prime as a fail safe so you don't get screwed and don't lose it. Poison was great but its not required at all. heck you can hide 10 devil gants in each brick of 30 now making them much more shooty.

So your solution to not taking a 195 point (base) unit is to take 160 points of gants plus 125 point Synapse HQ and leave that 285 points (without upgrades) in the backfield?

Obviously there will be more to it.

Even if there is you don't see the opportunity cost failure here? Requiring half of our available HQ slots to babysit 1/3 of our available Troops slots (and therefore not allowing that HQ to provide that Synapse up-table) isn't a great idea.

 Crimson wrote:
Everything else seems okay(-ish), but those changes to instinctive behaviour seem really worrying and potentially crippling. Tyranids are basically unable to leave an unit sitting on a backfield objective. And if the enemy guns down your synapse creatures, the entire army just folds. I don't understand what they were thinking.

They were thinking buy more synapse creatures and don't through them away. I don't understand why people fail to see how synapse is great. There is a down side obviously but don't forget your units gain the USR fearless while in it which is huge. A 4ppm GEQ with fearless. There needed to be a drawback.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Maybe I am way off base, but honestly I don't think you need the tervigon. A 4ppm you can grab 40 termigants for 160. How many games did you spawn 40 gants? I am guessing your better off buying them rather then making them in game. Hide synapse using a single prime as a fail safe so you don't get screwed and don't lose it. Poison was great but its not required at all. heck you can hide 10 devil gants in each brick of 30 now making them much more shooty.

So your solution to not taking a 195 point (base) unit is to take 160 points of gants plus 125 point Synapse HQ and leave that 285 points (without upgrades) in the backfield?

Obviously there will be more to it.

Even if there is you don't see the opportunity cost failure here? Requiring half of our available HQ slots to babysit 1/3 of our available Troops slots (and therefore not allowing that HQ to provide that Synapse up-table) isn't a great idea.

maybe a min genestealer unit will be the new backfield.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The changes to Rippers had to be conscious, right? That means that the person who wrote this genuinely thought Rippers were too good or they don’t understand their own rules.

Both prospects are frightening.

A lot of this book is frightening like that, and makes you think GW might have been taken over by some sort of gradually-degrading-into-insanity extragalactic artifical intelligence.

Like, I will bet my life that no human being 2010-2013 ever said any of the following phrase out loud, or even thought them in a moment of private weakness:

"I really think Scything Talons are too good, and something should be done about them."

"Implant Attacks have no place in this codex!"

"In my opinion, the Tyranid Prime costs about half as much as it should."

"Crushing Claws and the creatures that can take them really need to improve at killing vehicles."

"Maybe Tyranids should shoot each other when they fail IB! It's so fluffy!"

Only a gravely diseased mind could have arrived at the conclusion that these were issues needing rectification.

Fearless is as overrated as ATSKNF. "Oh look, my units don't run away when they get shot to pieces."

We don't exist in a meta where running off the board is a huge thing anymore. We exist in a meta where certain armies can bring so much ranged firepower to bear that units simply cease to exist after a round or two of shooting, or are reduced to levels where their combat effectiveness is essentially neutered.

Fearless is a benefit, sure. But it's not enough of a benefit to make synapse an advantage more than a liability.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Maybe I am way off base, but honestly I don't think you need the tervigon. A 4ppm you can grab 40 termigants for 160. How many games did you spawn 40 gants? I am guessing your better off buying them rather then making them in game. Hide synapse using a single prime as a fail safe so you don't get screwed and don't lose it. Poison was great but its not required at all. heck you can hide 10 devil gants in each brick of 30 now making them much more shooty.

Yeah, they can be, but that means they're S3. In assaults, you'll kill nothing. Out of assaults, you'll die like flies. Tau in particular can easily kill 120+ gants a turn, more if they're a gun line. The old codex succeeded with lots of units, not lots of models. Sure, you COULD fire at the unit of 6 gants, or the unit of 7 or the unit of 10, but you can't wipe them all with one squad. Now, you can, pretty easily. Devilgants need to get close, so without pods, your non-assaulty troops are walking up the board, hoping their synapse doesn't die and then firing essentially a lot of BS3 bolters. It's just not that awesome for 8ppm. Primes would have been awesome with the new mixed units but now they're 125 points with an actual nerf. Who knows why, but that means this blob will be MORE expensive than doing the same in 5e, but now you can't gain stuff from Tervigons and you don't have good delivery. Believe me, I've been trying my best to make this book work. I just don't see how to live a gun line AND actually do damage when you get there. Heck, synapse is a huge issue in this new book, far more than people think - without Tervigons, there's nothing really capable of pushing up other than primes which are way more expensive.

From reading through all of the codex images that have come out so far.. I'm just about stunned in disbelief.

This codex is just -bad-. I've yet to see the SLord's rules, but they would literally have to give your entire army +3 to all stats, have a 48" 3+ FNP bubble, 48" EW bubble, and 48" armour save become inv save.
That is not hyperbole. That is honestly how good he needs to be to counterbalance just how aweful this book is. the fact that there is a 50% chance that 2/3 of your army with either run away for no reason or kill itself is beyond idiotic.
Yes, daemons have the warp storm table. there is something like a 4% chance that something bad happens, then a further 4% chance that it actually works.

My only suggestion to everyone who plays tyranids, is to cancel your digital dex preorder, buy a physical copy, then return it 4 hours later complaining that the rules make the army almost unplayable.
Unless the playerbase does something we will literally be stuck with this awful piece of garbage for 4+ years.

And to everyone saying "Oh Tervigons were super OP and made it so Nids won EVERY TOURNAMENT EVER" ... I want to go to your tournies, because players in your area must be pretty derpy to lose to nids with Eldar, Eldau, Tau, Gravbikers, Helldrakes, Flying Circuis, Screamerstar, Seerstar, Vendettas, Scythespam, Longfang Spam. See where I'm going with that? Unless you rolled perfectly on getting the 2 powers -required- to make that army work (Iron arm and/or Endurance) on EVERY psyker, your army took a hit. Granted, the competitive scene in my area is significantly less 'competitive', but people bring strong lists none the less. I seriously can't find any synergy between what new units I've seen, aside from the same token things that literally every single army has.

Worst part about this being so bad is that even if I wanted to offload my Nids (I really don't), the book is so bad almost no-one will want them, and those that do aren't going to pay anything CLOSE to what standard 40k 3rd party prices tend to be. I guess GW wanted Tyranids to be the ACTUAL whipping boys if 6e, so the two DV armies have someone to beat up every time.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Fearless is as overrated as ATSKNF. "Oh look, my units don't run away when they get shot to pieces."

We don't exist in a meta where running off the board is a huge thing anymore. We exist in a meta where certain armies can bring so much ranged firepower to bear that units simply cease to exist after a round or two of shooting, or are reduced to levels where they're basically neutered.

Fearless is a benefit, sure. But it's not enough of a benefit to make synapse a liability more than an advantage.

Actually the change from 5th to 6th fearless assault rules was HUGE! 4ppm gants able to tie up threats while in synapse or to not worry turn 5 while on an objective is not a small thing. Never taking fearless wounds in assault is a pain.

How are those gants going to get into combat though? Hoofing it across the table, into the enemy gunline, devoid of their (recently destroyed) Syanpse? They'll spend more turns running away or eating one another than they will advancing or killing the enemy.

I have been reading this thread with a lot of interest. I love when a new codex drops because I love to see all the whining from the "Competitive" players. Look people GW has stated on several occasions that they consider the game a "Beer and Pretzels" game. Those are the words of the people who made the game. If you want a competitive game then there are way better systems out there for that. If your argument is that "But 40k is what is popular in my area" then pm me I will be happy to buy your unpainted models for 80% off retail and you can take that money and buy yourself a nice boring taudar army and everyone with the idea of playing competitive 40k can just play taudar v. taudar. I personally think that this new nid codex sounds like it has a lot of flavor and flair. It sounds like it will be a fun book to read and a fun army to play against because the book is well balanced in the fact that there is no "must take" unit. I fortunately don't have to play pick up games so I never had to deal with the whole 4 tervigon thing or three riptides or 10 wave serpents or any other derpy army like that. If what you want is an I win button than play taudar, if what you want is competition play taudar or switch systems. If what you want is to build and paint cool models, and to play a fun casual game with your friends then play 40k. Don't whine because the company that makes a game that is made for a casual environment has written another book that will be fun in a casual environment.

rothrich wrote:
I have been reading this thread with a lot of interest. I love when a new codex drops because I love to see all the whining from the "Competitive" players. Look people GW has stated on several occasions that they consider the game a "Beer and Pretzels" game. Those are the words of the people who made the game. If you want a competitive game then there are way better systems out there for that. If your argument is that "But 40k is what is popular in my area" then pm me I will be happy to buy your unpainted models for 80% off retail and you can take that money and buy yourself a nice boring taudar army and everyone with the idea of playing competitive 40k can just play taudar v. taudar. I personally think that this new nid codex sounds like it has a lot of flavor and flair. It sounds like it will be a fun book to read and a fun army to play against because the book is well balanced in the fact that there is no "must take" unit. I fortunately don't have to play pick up games so I never had to deal with the whole 4 tervigon thing or three riptides or 10 wave serpents or any other derpy army like that. If what you want is an I win button than play taudar, if what you want is competition play taudar or switch systems. If what you want is to build and paint cool models, and to play a fun casual game with your friends then play 40k. Don't whine because the company that makes a game that is made for a casual environment has written another book that will be fun in a casual environment.

You're about to get your head torn off.

Just fair warning...

 Red Corsair wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Fearless is as overrated as ATSKNF. "Oh look, my units don't run away when they get shot to pieces."

We don't exist in a meta where running off the board is a huge thing anymore. We exist in a meta where certain armies can bring so much ranged firepower to bear that units simply cease to exist after a round or two of shooting, or are reduced to levels where they're basically neutered.

Fearless is a benefit, sure. But it's not enough of a benefit to make synapse a liability more than an advantage.

Actually the change from 5th to 6th fearless assault rules was HUGE! 4ppm gants able to tie up threats while in synapse or to not worry turn 5 while on an objective is not a small thing. Never taking fearless wounds in assault is a pain.

They're going to have to walk across the entire board to get to assault. If you want to keep that fearless bubble, that means you're going to have to walk your synapse unit across the board too.

Into range of enemy guns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rothrich wrote:
I have been reading this thread with a lot of interest. I love when a new codex drops because I love to see all the whining from the "Competitive" players. Look people GW has stated on several occasions that they consider the game a "Beer and Pretzels" game. Those are the words of the people who made the game. If you want a competitive game then there are way better systems out there for that. If your argument is that "But 40k is what is popular in my area" then pm me I will be happy to buy your unpainted models for 80% off retail and you can take that money and buy yourself a nice boring taudar army and everyone with the idea of playing competitive 40k can just play taudar v. taudar. I personally think that this new nid codex sounds like it has a lot of flavor and flair. It sounds like it will be a fun book to read and a fun army to play against because the book is well balanced in the fact that there is no "must take" unit. I fortunately don't have to play pick up games so I never had to deal with the whole 4 tervigon thing or three riptides or 10 wave serpents or any other derpy army like that. If what you want is an I win button than play taudar, if what you want is competition play taudar or switch systems. If what you want is to build and paint cool models, and to play a fun casual game with your friends then play 40k. Don't whine because the company that makes a game that is made for a casual environment has written another book that will be fun in a casual environment.

rothrich wrote:
I have been reading this thread with a lot of interest. I love when a new codex drops because I love to see all the whining from the "Competitive" players. Look people GW has stated on several occasions that they consider the game a "Beer and Pretzels" game. Those are the words of the people who made the game. If you want a competitive game then there are way better systems out there for that. If your argument is that "But 40k is what is popular in my area" then pm me I will be happy to buy your unpainted models for 80% off retail and you can take that money and buy yourself a nice boring taudar army and everyone with the idea of playing competitive 40k can just play taudar v. taudar. I personally think that this new nid codex sounds like it has a lot of flavor and flair. It sounds like it will be a fun book to read and a fun army to play against because the book is well balanced in the fact that there is no "must take" unit. I fortunately don't have to play pick up games so I never had to deal with the whole 4 tervigon thing or three riptides or 10 wave serpents or any other derpy army like that. If what you want is an I win button than play taudar, if what you want is competition play taudar or switch systems. If what you want is to build and paint cool models, and to play a fun casual game with your friends then play 40k. Don't whine because the company that makes a game that is made for a casual environment has written another book that will be fun in a casual environment.

It's not written for a casual environment. It's written for idiots who believe that everything is good for the game because THEY have fun still.

Want to know why you don't have pick up games? Because there are no new players. The playerbase has been stagnating for a while now, and this will make it worse again. Do you think that's a good thing? Do you really see the fact you have no pick up games as anything other than a disaster?

How can you apologise for a company shafting people who've spent hundreds, maybe thousands on their product? This is a disgrace and so are you.

We will be taking warriors because we need them, not because they're good. Ugh.

Eyjio wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Maybe I am way off base, but honestly I don't think you need the tervigon. A 4ppm you can grab 40 termigants for 160. How many games did you spawn 40 gants? I am guessing your better off buying them rather then making them in game. Hide synapse using a single prime as a fail safe so you don't get screwed and don't lose it. Poison was great but its not required at all. heck you can hide 10 devil gants in each brick of 30 now making them much more shooty.

Yeah, they can be, but that means they're S3. In assaults, you'll kill nothing. Out of assaults, you'll die like flies. Tau in particular can easily kill 120+ gants a turn, more if they're a gun line. The old codex succeeded with lots of units, not lots of models. Sure, you COULD fire at the unit of 6 gants, or the unit of 7 or the unit of 10, but you can't wipe them all with one squad. Now, you can, pretty easily. Devilgants need to get close, so without pods, your non-assaulty troops are walking up the board, hoping their synapse doesn't die and then firing essentially a lot of BS3 bolters. It's just not that awesome for 8ppm. Primes would have been awesome with the new mixed units but now they're 125 points with an actual nerf. Who knows why, but that means this blob will be MORE expensive than doing the same in 5e, but now you can't gain stuff from Tervigons and you don't have good delivery. Believe me, I've been trying my best to make this book work. I just don't see how to live a gun line AND actually do damage when you get there. Heck, synapse is a huge issue in this new book, far more than people think - without Tervigons, there's nothing really capable of pushing up other than primes which are way more expensive.

I share your concern, but lets look at the hormegaunt now. its nly +1PPM over the termigant and is very fast. By nerfing the tervigon GW basically shifted us in that direction. 30 stock horms is only 150pts and with fleet and bounding leap will move an average of ~13". I don't see tau killing 120+ models in a single turn unless your playing MASSIVE games.

Right now I am looking at 90pt warrior broods to babysit my backfield objective and babysit my 3 biovores.

Genestealers were the other unit I was looking at but they would do nothing but look threatening. So for under 100pts i have synapse and objective holding covered.

The new synapse is essentially a phase out mechanic, except you don't need to kill 75% of the Tyranids.. You'll only need to kill about 25% or less. The flip of the coin is that your units are sometimes fearless. Whoopdy-gakking-doo.

Now that we know the points costs of all the units the book wouldn't be anywhere close to overpowered if everything was fearless for free and the synapse rule or instinctive behaviour didn't even exist. But we all know it wouldn't be as cinematic as Uriel Ventris and his band of brothers needling a Dominatrix with a whatever device and in one hit destroying a billion Tyranids and winning the war.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Fearless is as overrated as ATSKNF. "Oh look, my units don't run away when they get shot to pieces."

We don't exist in a meta where running off the board is a huge thing anymore. We exist in a meta where certain armies can bring so much ranged firepower to bear that units simply cease to exist after a round or two of shooting, or are reduced to levels where they're basically neutered.

Fearless is a benefit, sure. But it's not enough of a benefit to make synapse a liability more than an advantage.

Actually the change from 5th to 6th fearless assault rules was HUGE! 4ppm gants able to tie up threats while in synapse or to not worry turn 5 while on an objective is not a small thing. Never taking fearless wounds in assault is a pain.

They're going to have to walk across the entire board to get to assault. If you want to keep that fearless bubble, that means you're going to have to walk your synapse unit across the board too.

Into range of enemy guns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rothrich wrote:
I have been reading this thread with a lot of interest. I love when a new codex drops because I love to see all the whining from the "Competitive" players. Look people GW has stated on several occasions that they consider the game a "Beer and Pretzels" game. Those are the words of the people who made the game. If you want a competitive game then there are way better systems out there for that. If your argument is that "But 40k is what is popular in my area" then pm me I will be happy to buy your unpainted models for 80% off retail and you can take that money and buy yourself a nice boring taudar army and everyone with the idea of playing competitive 40k can just play taudar v. taudar. I personally think that this new nid codex sounds like it has a lot of flavor and flair. It sounds like it will be a fun book to read and a fun army to play against because the book is well balanced in the fact that there is no "must take" unit. I fortunately don't have to play pick up games so I never had to deal with the whole 4 tervigon thing or three riptides or 10 wave serpents or any other derpy army like that. If what you want is an I win button than play taudar, if what you want is competition play taudar or switch systems. If what you want is to build and paint cool models, and to play a fun casual game with your friends then play 40k. Don't whine because the company that makes a game that is made for a casual environment has written another book that will be fun in a casual environment.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Stage 5. Community embraces the horror. The blame-game begins for the crestfallen, while the most stalwart, those who simply refuse to be phased, spend months insisting that the movie wasn't that bad; defending its flaws and attacking other members of the community (for 40K, this will be the group of people who insist for months that the community needs more time to judge the codex after its release. "We don't know all the best builds yet! Give it some time! There's still strong combos that we might have missed! Dataslates and expansion!" Just because there's no 2++ invuln cheese doesn't mean its bad!)

Glorious.

We're here guys.

Stage 5 is upon us. Embrace the horror.

I have to laugh considering I am a HUGE pessimist by nature. It's the scientist I am that refuses to pass judgement without testing I suppose.

To be fair, they don't need to kill 120-models. They just need to kill your synapse ones (that you have to bring within range of their guns if you want your foot-pounding 'gaunts to remain fearless). There's a 50% chance per turn that the 120 models will proceed to take care of itself.

I am actually looking forward to playing a homragaunt horde though. Maybe Venomthrope support can keep my synapse beasties alive long enough for the gaunts to get into assault.

rothrich wrote:
Don't whine because the company that makes a game that is made for a casual environment has written another book that will be fun in a casual environment.

Because it'd be absolutely horrible and unthinkable to have a book be good in a competitive environment and a casual environment

I think maybe I play with more terrain that BLOS then most. Hiding a prime doesn't seem that difficult to me synapse only matter until the horms make assault which is turn 2 if you do it right.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Eyjio wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Maybe I am way off base, but honestly I don't think you need the tervigon. A 4ppm you can grab 40 termigants for 160. How many games did you spawn 40 gants? I am guessing your better off buying them rather then making them in game. Hide synapse using a single prime as a fail safe so you don't get screwed and don't lose it. Poison was great but its not required at all. heck you can hide 10 devil gants in each brick of 30 now making them much more shooty.

Yeah, they can be, but that means they're S3. In assaults, you'll kill nothing. Out of assaults, you'll die like flies. Tau in particular can easily kill 120+ gants a turn, more if they're a gun line. The old codex succeeded with lots of units, not lots of models. Sure, you COULD fire at the unit of 6 gants, or the unit of 7 or the unit of 10, but you can't wipe them all with one squad. Now, you can, pretty easily. Devilgants need to get close, so without pods, your non-assaulty troops are walking up the board, hoping their synapse doesn't die and then firing essentially a lot of BS3 bolters. It's just not that awesome for 8ppm. Primes would have been awesome with the new mixed units but now they're 125 points with an actual nerf. Who knows why, but that means this blob will be MORE expensive than doing the same in 5e, but now you can't gain stuff from Tervigons and you don't have good delivery. Believe me, I've been trying my best to make this book work. I just don't see how to live a gun line AND actually do damage when you get there. Heck, synapse is a huge issue in this new book, far more than people think - without Tervigons, there's nothing really capable of pushing up other than primes which are way more expensive.

I share your concern, but lets look at the hormegaunt now. its nly +1PPM over the termigant and is very fast. By nerfing the tervigon GW basically shifted us in that direction. 30 stock horms is only 150pts and with fleet and bounding leap will move an average of ~13". I don't see tau killing 120+ models in a single turn unless your playing MASSIVE games.

Sure, they're fast, but that's it. They hit combat and... they hit combat. Without poison, they do almost nothing to anyone. Heck, at 3 it takes 18 attacks to causee one MEQ wound. Against anything tougher, you may as well not bother. Great if you just want to tarpit, but Gargoyles are strictly better for that. In fact, gargoyles are just better than Hormagaunts period, even with the nerf to blinding venom. Gargoyles are, IMO, even more of an auto-include now. Maybe there's something to be said for poison hormagaunts runnign with poison gargoyles, but that's a heck of an investment into something which is fundamentally worse than it was in 5e.

 Gloomfang wrote:
Right now I am looking at 90pt warrior broods to babysit my backfield objective and babysit my 3 biovores.

Genestealers were the other unit I was looking at but they would do nothing but look threatening. So for under 100pts i have synapse and objective holding covered.

I worry that all the points cost reductions which seem to be one of the only silver linings are going to get eaten up in ideas like this.

rigeld2 wrote:

rothrich wrote:
Don't whine because the company that makes a game that is made for a casual environment has written another book that will be fun in a casual environment.

Because it'd be absolutely horrible and unthinkable to have a book be good in a competitive environment and a casual environment

I sympathize man. But can you really be this surprised/disappointed with GW at this point?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarain wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
Right now I am looking at 90pt warrior broods to babysit my backfield objective and babysit my 3 biovores.

Genestealers were the other unit I was looking at but they would do nothing but look threatening. So for under 100pts i have synapse and objective holding covered.

I worry that all the points cost reductions which seem to be one of the only silver linings are going to get eaten up in ideas like this.

I was too but what objectives are people required to camp backfield? Most missions you can through them up field which was always a choice move for bugs. To methere is no incentive to keep them back anymore, is that a bad thing? I don't know yet.

 Red Corsair wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

rothrich wrote:
Don't whine because the company that makes a game that is made for a casual environment has written another book that will be fun in a casual environment.

Because it'd be absolutely horrible and unthinkable to have a book be good in a competitive environment and a casual environment

I sympathize man. But can you really be this surprised/disappointed with GW at this point?

Yes, I can absolutely be disappointed in the product they're putting out. Especially since they could very likely earn significantly more money by writing better rules.

Double post

I think its worth mentioning that marines are getting a Nid hunter dataslate with this release too. Cause you know, they need it...

rothrich wrote:
I love when a new codex drops because I love to see all the whining from the "Competitive" players.

Please don't casually dismiss legitimate criticism of objectively bad units as "competitive" players "whining". That's dishonest, insulting and flat out wrong.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Reading the past few pages of this thread reminds me of IMDB's sub-communities for movies that bomb.

Stage 1: Initial announcement of product. Be jaded.

Stage 2: Details begin to trickle in. Get cautiously optimistic.

Stage 3: Details start flowing. Red-flags show up for those still jaded, the optimistic go into wise-man mode and lash out against the jaded for making assumptions without knowing all the details.

Stage 4: A final bombshell of information is released, for movies this is the various trailers. All gak hits the fan. Many of the optimistic give in to their grief but the most stalwart insist that we still don't know all the details yet. Maybe the trailer was just bad. The marketing team is bad. The film could still be good! The jaded are bitterly laughing their asses off.

Stage 5. Community embraces the horror. The blame-game begins for the crestfallen, while the most stalwart, those who simply refuse to be phased, spend months insisting that the movie wasn't that bad; defending its flaws and attacking other members of the community (for 40K, this will be the group of people who insist for months that the community needs more time to judge the codex after its release. "We don't know all the best builds yet! Give it some time! There's still strong combos that we might have missed! Dataslates and expansion!" Just because there's no 2++ invuln cheese doesn't mean its bad!)

We're at stage 4 ITT.

Anyway, some of the flashbacks in here are disingenuous. I remember the rumor thread for Eldar, and I remember the rumor thread for Chaos Space Marines. By the time it was getting close to release time, hype for the Eldar codex was pretty positive because the rumors for it were very positive. Hype for the CSM codex was low because most rumors pointed to it being 4E CSM with Heldrakes.

Have an exalt for this incredibly accurate truth.

I've been away for a while so forgive my ignorance, but where did this whole silly concept of "its okay if its bad because its CASUAL" mindset come from? Because its frigging hiliarious

The Exocrine is the only thing that bugs me the most because the range completely contradicts the fluff that GW been shoving.

For example their most recent post on the site just makes me laugh:
"The Exocrine, on the other hand, is a gun-beast – the Tyranid equivalent of human artillery. It’s widely believed by Imperial scholars that the Exocrine is little more than a slave to the massive, six-barrelled bio-plasmic cannon that it carries into battle, the gun apparently showing more intelligence than its symbiotic host. In battle, these huge beasts are used to pound the enemy from afar, though, like other Monstrous Creatures, the Exocrine can be just as usefully employed trampling the enemy to death beneath its huge forelimbs and massive, chitinous bulk."

or is it just me?

evilsponge wrote:
I've been away for a while so forgive my ignorance, but where did this whole silly concept of "its okay if its bad because its CASUAL" mindset come from? Because its frigging hiliarious

From the people (like Brassangel) who think that everyone who plays at tournaments is automatically a WAAC player.

evilsponge wrote:
I've been away for a while so forgive my ignorance, but where did this whole silly concept of "its okay if its bad because its CASUAL" mindset come from? Because its frigging hiliarious

Spite.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

rothrich wrote:
I have been reading this thread with a lot of interest. I love when a new codex drops because I love to see all the whining from the "Competitive" players. Look people GW has stated on several occasions that they consider the game a "Beer and Pretzels" game. Those are the words of the people who made the game. If you want a competitive game then there are way better systems out there for that. If your argument is that "But 40k is what is popular in my area" then pm me I will be happy to buy your unpainted models for 80% off retail and you can take that money and buy yourself a nice boring taudar army and everyone with the idea of playing competitive 40k can just play taudar v. taudar. I personally think that this new nid codex sounds like it has a lot of flavor and flair. It sounds like it will be a fun book to read and a fun army to play against because the book is well balanced in the fact that there is no "must take" unit. I fortunately don't have to play pick up games so I never had to deal with the whole 4 tervigon thing or three riptides or 10 wave serpents or any other derpy army like that. If what you want is an I win button than play taudar, if what you want is competition play taudar or switch systems. If what you want is to build and paint cool models, and to play a fun casual game with your friends then play 40k. Don't whine because the company that makes a game that is made for a casual environment has written another book that will be fun in a casual environment.

You're about to get your head torn off.

Just fair warning...

I do understand a lot of the pessimism, and I admit I'm disappointed, but we'll see. I think it'll be a bland, boring book with one to two lists that a strong player can use to win many games. Exactly like the last book, with a new monobuild. However, I think that this book will have perhaps a little extra variety. I see no single "you must take this" unit like an old Tervi (or Riptide) but I see more units of "these are pretty good, try them out" then we have before. It isn't the end, just not a very thrilling beginning.

Because wanting balanced rules does not mean you hate fun? Seriously that has to be the most asinine reasoning I've heard in a long time.

When people ask me why it's not okay for people to enjoy a codex regardless of its balance, I ask them why its not okay to want to win games.

rothrich wrote:


Firstly, Why are they the idiots if they are having fun? I think that the idiot would be the one who spends thousands of dollars on a game that is no fun at all.
Second, I do not get pick up games because I think that pick up games are terrible and no fun. This is because...
A. Pick up games tend to be run from the games that your roll out of the book which are terrible. They have no imagination and are poorly balanced.
B. I personally have had bad experience with pick up games. They just always seem so awkward and weird.
C. I play with friends that I have had forever and really have no need to play pick up games
Third, Why should anyone feel shafted from purchasing GW products? They bought fine models for a nice friendly game of 40k!

I think B. is telling us about why you think the way you do. Random social interactions are bad and weird. No wonder you don't like tournaments.

And C. You play the same bunch of dudes ad nauseam and telling us that playing the same armies over and over isn't fun.

Because winning is for losers!



Sorry, that's a reference to the old "Dakka Dakka Casual Gaming Mafia".

 Red Corsair wrote:
Maybe I am way off base, but honestly I don't think you need the tervigon. A 4ppm you can grab 40 termigants for 160. How many games did you spawn 40 gants? I am guessing your better off buying them rather then making them in game. Hide synapse using a single prime as a fail safe so you don't get screwed and don't lose it. Poison was great but its not required at all. heck you can hide 10 devil gants in each brick of 30 now making them much more shooty.

This post shows to me why you dont understand. The power of the Tervigon has nothing to do with how many gants it can spawn in a game. It has to do with protecting a two Troops, itself and the gant brood it hasnt spawned yet. It takes literally no effort for an opponent to wipe out a Gant brood. A single Wave Serpent can do that in 1 turn. Once the troops die, you lose. Simply multiplying those Broods to 30 members only minorly helps. The Tervigon allowed you to spawn near the end of the game, dropping troops on objectives and keeping them alive to score. The Terv also had 3 chances to roll that key Psy Power to save itself. Typically either Iron Arm or Endurance. Now you have 1 chance to roll 1 power to save your expensive Troop.

Your big gant broods will have no fun with rapid firing enemies with AP or Blasts when you cluster around your venomthrope for cover. Your "boost" is that things got cheaper. What are you going to buy in that 1500 point list to swing the game for what 225points ?


You and Brassangel are defending the codex like your the writers trying to justify their crap work. Its a crap codex. CSM at least had one model that was so good that it compensated. Nids got nothing.

rigeld2 wrote:

rothrich wrote:
Don't whine because the company that makes a game that is made for a casual environment has written another book that will be fun in a casual environment.

Because it'd be absolutely horrible and unthinkable to have a book be good in a competitive environment and a casual environment

Well, they've never advertised a product they were making as intended for a competitive environment. They haven't received nearly the demand to be a mostly competitive-minded product (as their sales go up despite their beer-and-pretzels approach).

Would it be absolutely "horrible and unthinkable" for them to deliver the very product they advertise?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

rothrich wrote:
I love when a new codex drops because I love to see all the whining from the "Competitive" players.

Please don't casually dismiss legitimate criticism of objectively bad units as "competitive" players "whining". That's dishonest, insulting and flat out wrong.

Please don't consider everything that doesn't automatically hate every new product that comes out (until they are proven wrong every single time after some play) as a casual dismissal. It's dishonest, insulting, and flat out wrong. In other words, it's the HBMC of posts.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

evilsponge wrote:
I've been away for a while so forgive my ignorance, but where did this whole silly concept of "its okay if its bad because its CASUAL" mindset come from? Because its frigging hiliarious

From the people (like Brassangel) who think that everyone who plays at tournaments is automatically a WAAC player.

I play tournaments, and I like to win. I found ways to win, in 5th edition, with our previous piece of crap (before the 6th edition rulebook gave us the Biomancy crutch everyone seems to be panicking to have to play without - thinking of something new? Oh noes!!!). This book will be far easier to win with, and I'll have more options.

I've just seen this same pattern of whining --er, sorry, "legitimate concerns" and total lack of understanding of an army or it's units before extensive playtesting --er, "objectively bad units" so many times that I know how it will end up: the angry mob will be wrong, yet again. Does that mean it will be as rampant as say, Tau or Eldar? Maybe not, but those armies aren't nearly as difficult to collect either (i.e. not swarms).

Seeing as how the people with the type of voice you're bellowing have batted 0.000 thus far, I'm not too concerned with finding a variety of ways to win with this book instead of hoping for my one way to win with the previous one.

In summary, the "legitimate concerns" have been nothing more than "I don't see anything that's obviously busted or abusable, and I'm smart enough to know without playing anything...just like with the Riptide, the Helldrake, and the Wave Serpent. Oh wait...I mean...guys like Brassangel are stupid for disagreeing with us!"

The Tyranids version of those types of units will emerge. Every book has them.

I love how angry you guys get. You take everything so personal, get overly emotional about a hobby, and can't admit that you just don't have a clue how this will turn out. I at least admit I'm not sure how it will go (in terms of the fate of Tyranids, not the rumor-monger whining (which is obvious)), but lean optimistically in one direction based on the rumor cycle history.

evilsponge wrote:Because wanting balanced rules does not mean you hate fun? Seriously that has to be the most asinine reasoning I've heard in a long time.

Ravenous D wrote:

rothrich wrote:


Firstly, Why are they the idiots if they are having fun? I think that the idiot would be the one who spends thousands of dollars on a game that is no fun at all.
Second, I do not get pick up games because I think that pick up games are terrible and no fun. This is because...
A. Pick up games tend to be run from the games that your roll out of the book which are terrible. They have no imagination and are poorly balanced.
B. I personally have had bad experience with pick up games. They just always seem so awkward and weird.
C. I play with friends that I have had forever and really have no need to play pick up games
Third, Why should anyone feel shafted from purchasing GW products? They bought fine models for a nice friendly game of 40k!

I think B. is telling us about why you think the way you do. Random social interactions are bad and weird. No wonder you don't like tournaments.

And C. You play the same bunch of dudes ad nauseam and telling us that playing the same armies over and over isn't fun.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Because winning is for losers!



Sorry, that's a reference to the old "Dakka Dakka Casual Gaming Mafia".

There are only one or two units in all games that when spammed break the game's ballance

Actually I am a very social person. I get along with everyone I meet. I work in a customer service industry and I ensure that every customer I talk to leaves me with a smile on their face and in a better mood than when they came in.

ad nauseam? really dude? is it fun to just post up random Latin words that I have to google? But whatever we have not played one another to the point of nausea, and who says that we always play the same armies? I have played as Orks, SW, GK, Crons, eldar and guard actually I can honestly say that between the five of us we have played about every single army over several editions of the game. If you get board of an army you can just trade out. There are tons of WAAC players on the internet happy to sell you their unfinished army because the new army with the more cheesetastic rules just came out and plenty of players happy to buy your army because you took the time to paint it halfway decent. Through good trading I can usually even swap one of my armies for a different one without spending a penny.

"It is not if you win or loose but how you play the game." -Amerurica

Re: the comments about not being able to leave small squads of gants babysitting backfield objectives out of synapse anymore.

I think i figured it out.

GW decided that mindless bugs guarding "objectives" (because in their mind why would mindless bugs care about objectives when all they want is more biomass" wasn't cinematic, so they designed the rules to punish players who didn't play cinematically.

Gotta forge that narrative.

evilsponge wrote:
I've been away for a while so forgive my ignorance, but where did this whole silly concept of "its okay if its bad because its CASUAL" mindset come from? Because its frigging hiliarious

Jervis Johnson. He's managed to convince a vast swathe of the player base that shoddy rules writing and atrocious internal and external balance are features, not bugs.

What's with this whole...oh yeah kill synapse and the army folds mentality?

Synapse creatures are by nature hard to kill...and you have to do it all on turn one...venomthropes and all...highly unlikely.

End of turn 1 a unit of hormagaunts can be 27" up the board leaving only the back 6-7" of the board safe on turn 2.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:

evilsponge wrote:
I've been away for a while so forgive my ignorance, but where did this whole silly concept of "its okay if its bad because its CASUAL" mindset come from? Because its frigging hiliarious

Jervis Johnson. He's managed to convince a vast swathe of the player base that shoddy rules writing and atrocious internal and external balance are features, not bugs.

Bugs. I get it.

They are definitely not bugs.

I think its obvious whats going on in here right now. All our synapse got taken out, so now all our feeders are raging and trying to bite anyone that walks to close, the lurkers are looking on or running away, and our hunters are hiding and taking the occasional pot shot to lighten the mood.

rothrich wrote:

In what way is the book bad? have you read the book yet? In my opinion a bad bit of fiction is one that fails to entertain the reader.

This. This is why I am not happy. I do not think it is entertaining. When I started a few decades ago (I have genestealers old enough to drink) and Nids first came out it was all about the rushing across the table with claws and teeth and promises of death if I managed to actually get across the table.

Now I am not sure what Nids are anymore. The CC units don't have that "pow" in your face type of feel anymore. I'm not saying everything should be stealer shock, but what started with a Zulu Dawn type of feel quickly turned into some sort of resource management simulator.

I LOVED when fortifications were introduced in 6th. It gives me that barricaded humans in a desprite bid for survival vibe I love.

So I'll try it and see what I think. Hoping I like the vibe still.

madmanrambler wrote:
I think its obvious whats going on in here right now. All our synapse got taken out, so now all our feeders are raging and trying to bite anyone that walks to close, the lurkers are looking on or running away, and our hunters are hiding and taking the occasional pot shot to lighten the mood.

Madmanrambler

Special Rules: Instinctive Behavior - Hunt

Apocalypse introduced the 10" template.
Codex Tyranids basically introduced the 12" template, but only against Tyranid players, if you hit their Tervigon: Watch the Termagants explode and the MCs hit themselves

BTW why are a special Carnifex and Lictor HQs now, they are not even Synapse! Watching the general cower down or hit himself because he lacks any guidance is quite depressing

 Red Corsair wrote:
I think maybe I play with more terrain that BLOS then most. Hiding a prime doesn't seem that difficult to me synapse only matter until the horms make assault which is turn 2 if you do it right.

That certainly helps matters. BLOS terrain is something that TO tend to not have enough of.

 ductvader wrote:
What's with this whole...oh yeah kill synapse and the army folds mentality?

Synapse creatures are by nature hard to kill...and you have to do it all on turn one...venomthropes and all...highly unlikely.

End of turn 1 a unit of hormagaunts can be 27" up the board leaving only the back 6-7" of the board safe on turn 2.

Well, lets assume every game is DoW and not Hammer/Anvil or Vanguard and you would be correct, but have you seen how any shooty army deploys against us? They will castle up in the back and shoot. And if you use such speed, you will probably run out of Synapse range, because I am going to kill any Syn in range of you. So turn 3 you make combat, and I will have blown away alot of your army.

:edit. Not to mention that you will have to cover the entire length of the board. If you deploy first, they can pick a far corner greatly increasing your required movement.

I think a Bastion is now necessary for us. Really, it is. I don't need to but it a quad gun, but if I can slap a Venomthope inside, then excellent. That is what I need. Give it some durability from shooting, put it in a forward position to support the advance, and everything is lovely. Really, if our "no shooting guns" (grumble) turns into "no buying fortifications" I will flip my lid. Whether or not this codex turns out competitive, it is a middle finger to us next to the other armies. We just lack all the lovely options every other army gets. maybe we can do fine without them, but dangit I like options.

 jifel wrote:
I think a Bastion is now necessary for us. Really, it is. I don't need to but it a quad gun, but if I can slap a Venomthope inside, then excellent. That is what I need. Give it some durability from shooting, put it in a forward position to support the advance, and everything is lovely. Really, if our "no shooting guns" (grumble) turns into "no buying fortifications" I will flip my lid. Whether or not this codex turns out competitive, it is a middle finger to us next to the other armies. We just lack all the lovely options every other army gets. maybe we can do fine without them, but dangit I like options.

That sounds quite useful actually. Would you measure the Shrouded bubble from the edges of the Bastion? Regardless the LoS blocking and potential Comms Relay would make it a good investment.

I've been reading this thread for days and I HATE the people who will swallow the koolaid of "It's just beer n pretzels guys, lulz. Go find something else!"

You do realize that this notion will murder 40k?

A balanced game is good for everyone. It promotes sales, makes new and old models worth it, and makes everyone happy. In a balanced game, a competitive list and fluffy list are one in the same! How is that a bad thing? It's not!

Anecdote: A good handful of the casual GW players in my area are either going full hobby or shifting to other games that ARE beer and pretzels like Malifaux, Infinity, and Flames of War. They have balanced rulesets, depend on gentlemen understandings, don't promote rules disputes and are cheaper.

It's only the grizzled vets and the competitive die-hards that are weathering the storm. So take that "non-competitive" stuff and jog on. You're just poisoning 40k more by accepting lazy writing.

There is no damn good reason why genestealers and warriors are still hot street trash. I am someone who really wants to build and play Midzilla... and by play, I mean more than set my models down, get Tau gunlined off the table, and then shed a tear in my beer about how much money I wasted.

Edit: Aside this, what's the wording on the new Shadows of the Warp? Is it straight Ld reduction for psykers? Is it just on casting powers? Does it affect force weapons?

SiTW just says lowers leadership, so all tests. Stack it with Deathleaper's ability and a psyker can be at -6 LD.

It's a -3 to leadership tests to all enemy psykers within range, iirc.

As to whether it's a -3 to their leadershi[ carte blanche or only in regards to psychic tests, I can't say.

Fragile wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
What's with this whole...oh yeah kill synapse and the army folds mentality?

Synapse creatures are by nature hard to kill...and you have to do it all on turn one...venomthropes and all...highly unlikely.

End of turn 1 a unit of hormagaunts can be 27" up the board leaving only the back 6-7" of the board safe on turn 2.

Well, lets assume every game is DoW and not Hammer/Anvil or Vanguard and you would be correct, but have you seen how any shooty army deploys against us? They will castle up in the back and shoot. And if you use such speed, you will probably run out of Synapse range, because I am going to kill any Syn in range of you. So turn 3 you make combat, and I will have blown away alot of your army.

Not unless you bring a whole bunch of synapse boosters... Too bad we don't have many of tho-
*sees norn crown, dominion psychic power, warlord trait, sees 30" synapse range, along with unconfirmed swarmlord synapse range of 18" minimum* oh wait.
Yeah, people are going 'lets just kill synapse!' like its something that happens all the time. You can do the same thing right now, and you probably screw over the army right off the bat if you do. Problem is its still really bloody difficult, with flying hive tyrants, trygon primes, OOE providing pseudo synapse, tervigons which are still T6 W6 Sv 3+, zoans with 3++...

I'm not going to say things are looking good, but I will say a few things I've seen mentioned that deserve response.

To those that claim the psychic powers suck: ahahahahahaAHAHAHAHAHA, HA HA HA HA!
*giggles a bit more*
okay, I'm done.
But yeah, I disagree, whole heartedly. Psychic powers hardly suck. the worst one in terms of pure profit is dominion and onslaught, but I can easily see those still coming into play. for those that doubt that, imagine a tyrannofex moving forward 9 to 12 inches and spraying his 20" flamer template that kills fire warriors like a bug zapper zaps bugs, and understand that can happen with anything that has a somewhat short range gun and needs to get in close.
Dominion, as I said, is great for ensuring those horror stories of all our synapse getting taken down is certainly mitigated.
the horror is pure fething cheese, and it'll make anyone who isn't fearless or stubborn piss their pants, including ATSKNF bastard marines. Whats that, take a leadership penalty minus 2, take a pinning test, and if you fail it you're snap shotting and I get assault grenades on that unit when I charge it? Holy crap, where do I sign?! LD 10 takes the test on 8, meaning its just above 50% pass rate. Take 6 broodlords, and watch as your enemies army is too busy ducking in fear to actually shoot you.
Catalyst, we've talked about. Its awesome, a super fluffy tyranid power, will be a shame to roll up on a tyrant with adaptive biology (take feel no pain after your first wound) but hey, it happens.
Psychic scream? thats the doom, right there, with one d6 removed and some balance put in. Now, you'll probably only take a few enemies per unit with you. And you won't be doing it on your enemies turn. but hey, a flyrant ducking into a big cluster of tau hoping to hide together for supporting fire? hey buddies, hope you like my screaming metal, starting a band called carnifex up, buy our CD!
warp blast gives your hive tyrants zoanthrope powers. while flying. Heldrake? hey, buddy? I think we need to do some wing clippings. I really like you, love your model, wish you were in my army, but yeah, get the f*#@ out of my airspace.
And for those worrying about rolling warp blast on your tervigons: reread your rulebook. Tervigon's mastery level 1. warp blast is mastery level 2. pg 418 BRB, any psychic powers you roll with a warp charge higher then your mastery level, you get to reroll. Something I didn't realize until I read it today.

I'll admit, in some areas, we took hits. But not all of them. not by a long shot. We're still angry, we're still the gribblies, and I think, if this codex is used right, we're still going to rock.

Okay...

Now I've been bordering the edge of optimism and indifference to this whole matter, and taking in comments and info as it's come along and tried to keep that stiff upper lip and hopes that finally, after a very long time, I'd have a codex for the army that I've been collecting since 2nd edition and be able to field some of those iconic units that have always looked great and had a tremendously awesome background alongside new units that fill in niches that we did not have before, or may fulfill some specific role that would be fun to play with but not see every game.

Mostly though, I wanted to have a codex that allowed me to have a series of viable units so I could play an army that was not overpowered, simply competitive.

For those of you who do not understand, I don't want to have a 99% win ratio, where the last 1% is simply because I rolled 1s all game. I want to have a ratio where I can place down an army, look across the table, and not immediately start to keep my trays open to start placing models back in. Give me an assault army from hell, give me a shooting army that has unique rules that are alien and strange (cause we fire living ammunition for crying out loud...) that may not be able to punch through marine armor, but has a weight of fire that makes them keep their heads down. Give me MCs that actually act like they're supposed to, not something that can reliably be shot to death by small arms fire while other armies light transports can effectively ignore 90% of mine.

Just give me something I can keep pace with, not something where I have the odds so hopelessly stacked against me that I am required to hope for a miracle.

This is not WAAC, this is simply hoping that a codex should be equal, in some fashion, to its peers. A narrative can tell one story, but in the end forging a narrative does not mean that I wanted to play the extras who are gunned down by the heroes each and every time. It's a wargame, and I should hope to have an equal chance to win. Casual gaming is not incompatible with competitive rules, nor should it be. I have played casual games of Warmachine with Competitive tournament players and did not lament the horrifying way they belittled me and made me cry... because they did not act in that fashion. I have sat in a tournament setting and joked and laughed with my opponent in each turn. Competitive gaming is not some horrifying monstrosity that kills fun; bad players kill fun, and you can find them in casual circuits and competitive ones. Calling a game "beer and pretzels" does not make it immune to jerks, nor should that be the mentality or excuse for not balancing out rules and options for an army that is as iconic as Space Marines in the setting.

Some changes that I have seen are flat out flabbergasting, such as to Hive Guard and the range on the Exocrine. The lengths that people have had to forge ways of utilizing these units just for them to do their specified role (according to what we know) show that there is an inherent problem because that implies they cannot fulfill their role without a specific set of criteria. Imagine if Devastators could only work if there were 2 squads of tactical marines exactly within 6" of them, or if Riptides required 14 (not 13, not 15) models to be within a specific minimum and maximum distance before it could utilize its options.

Yes, these are exaggerations, but at the same time that seems to be the approach to Tyranids for the better part of a decade now. Worse is when people tell the players of the army to simply accept it as fact, or that we're not playing to our strengths. It's hard to play to your strengths when those very things are hard-countered by rules and armies that are, for the most part, not exactly uncommon nowadays.

 Eldarain wrote:

 jifel wrote:
I think a Bastion is now necessary for us. Really, it is. I don't need to but it a quad gun, but if I can slap a Venomthope inside, then excellent. That is what I need. Give it some durability from shooting, put it in a forward position to support the advance, and everything is lovely. Really, if our "no shooting guns" (grumble) turns into "no buying fortifications" I will flip my lid. Whether or not this codex turns out competitive, it is a middle finger to us next to the other armies. We just lack all the lovely options every other army gets. maybe we can do fine without them, but dangit I like options.

That sounds quite useful actually. Would you measure the Shrouded bubble from the edges of the Bastion? Regardless the LoS blocking and potential Comms Relay would make it a good investment.

Yes, the bubble extends, if you can buy it*. Put that sucker right in the front of your table half, with Comms relay, one void shield, and an escape hatch** (SA upgrade. It's awesome). Turn 1, you have a lone venomthrope hiding out of LoS somewhere far away. If opponent has turn 1, he's hiding and can buff your guys. Great, but you must advance. Using the escape hatch, you can move his bubble up by 18" plus the size of the bastion. Then just move the army forward into his bubble. Also, put biovores up top. They'll get a 2++ cover from Shrouded+Bastion and have LoS to battlefield while being protected, maybe man a comm relay.

*Any word on this? Surprised it hasn't been mentioned, but it would have to be in the codex not in another FAQ.
**Escape hatch is a marker placed 12" away from a bunker, that is an embarkation point. Good for jumping guys into a forward bastion without turn 1 positioning them in a vulnerable spot, or for bailing if the situation is dire.

Bonus points to Marrak.

And you're getting a broodlord close to marines how?

By the time they get there, you'll be nearly dead. Just like stealers have been since I started in 5E. Nothing in this book is striking me as amazing. I still think I could table armies using Space Wolves... and that's not saying much.

It seems like the same boring lists and deletion of good things like Spore Pods.

 TheKbob wrote:
And you're getting a broodlord close to marines how?

By the time they get there, you'll be nearly dead. Just like stealers have been since I started in 5E. Nothing in this book is striking me as amazing. I still think I could table armies using Space Wolves... and that's not saying much.

It seems like the same boring lists and deletion of good things like Spore Pods.

Infiltrate, hiding in cover, venomthropes deployed so that they're just barely touching your genestealer unit and giving them shrouded, soak the board in targets that are more important then a measly 5 genestealers and a broodlord. You start 18" away, just one move away from hitting them with the horror. This is assuming, worst case scenario, you deployed first and had the initiative stolen from you. Or hell, deploy the genestealers on your side of the board, behind hormagaunts. The horror has 24" range. You don't need to start in range of those marines to lock them down.

I'm not suggesting this is easy. or that you can make one throw away unit and have it become god like. But we can do way more with what we've been told then what we're letting on. We're all doom and gloom before we've even put our units on the board.

If competitive players are so butt hurt about the new rules (for any codex) and how all their models are garbage now, then perhaps you should realize that is JUST A GAME! A game that is always changing! GW has been rotating rules and models for quite some time now and it won't stop because you don't like what they did with your codex(this coming from a csm player who doesn't cry!). You knew things could get worse, and crying like a bunch of two year olds does nothing but make the 40k community look bad.

Also, for those who look down on casual gamers, perhaps YOU are the ones that should move on to different game/hobby. If winning, obtaining prizes, and being super competitive is THAT important to you then perhaps you should play Magic. The game offers much more for people like you.

 l0k1 wrote:
If competitive players are so butt hurt about the new rules (for any codex) and how all their models are garbage now, then perhaps you should realize that is JUST A GAME! A game that is always changing! GW has been rotating rules and models for quite some time now and it won't stop because you don't like what they did with your codex(this coming from a csm player who doesn't cry!). You knew things could get worse, and crying like a bunch of two year olds does nothing but make the 40k community look bad.

Also, for those who look down on casual gamers, perhaps YOU are the ones that should move on to different game/hobby. If winning, obtaining prizes, and being super competitive is THAT important to you then perhaps you should play Magic. The game offers much more for people like you.

*Infers dissatisfaction with whining and crying*

Also please find me one poster "looking down on casual gamers".

I've never met another gaming community that blames the customer for not liking the product. It blows my mind.

Marrak wrote:Okay...

As a Sisters player... more power to you!

madmanrambler wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
And you're getting a broodlord close to marines how?

By the time they get there, you'll be nearly dead. Just like stealers have been since I started in 5E. Nothing in this book is striking me as amazing. I still think I could table armies using Space Wolves... and that's not saying much.

It seems like the same boring lists and deletion of good things like Spore Pods.

Infiltrate, hiding in cover, venomthropes deployed so that they're just barely touching your genestealer unit and giving them shrouded, soak the board in targets that are more important then a measly 5 genestealers and a broodlord. You start 18" away, just one move away from hitting them with the horror. This is assuming, worst case scenario, you deployed first and had the initiative stolen from you. Or hell, deploy the genestealers on your side of the board, behind hormagaunts. The horror has 24" range. You don't need to start in range of those marines to lock them down.

I'm not suggesting this is easy. or that you can make one throw away unit and have it become god like. But we can do way more with what we've been told then what we're letting on. We're all doom and gloom before we've even put our units on the board.

Cool, I use my allied Inquisitor for 34 points to place servo skulls so you can't infiltrate crap. They can ally with every army save Nids and Chaos. Then I fire one of "ignore cover saves" things at the venomthrope and murder it softly, like I did in fifth... without ignores cover saves...

It's one spell. It's kinda neat. But on a garbage unit. On a dude that costs a lot of points.

PS: It's just a game. Cool, I'll play at 2000 pts, you play at 500 and it's just a game? Neat right? Who cares! If it's just a game why do people get mad when I bring a GT level list against a fluffy list. It's just a game, right? I mean, you're a fluff player, you don't care about winning. Here's the narrative... your force met a stronger force and was annihilated to the man in short order standing no chance to a superior foe. Fun, let's do it next week?

madmanrambler wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
And you're getting a broodlord close to marines how?

By the time they get there, you'll be nearly dead. Just like stealers have been since I started in 5E. Nothing in this book is striking me as amazing. I still think I could table armies using Space Wolves... and that's not saying much.

It seems like the same boring lists and deletion of good things like Spore Pods.

Infiltrate, hiding in cover, venomthropes deployed so that they're just barely touching your genestealer unit and giving them shrouded, soak the board in targets that are more important then a measly 5 genestealers and a broodlord. You start 18" away, just one move away from hitting them with the horror. This is assuming, worst case scenario, you deployed first and had the initiative stolen from you. Or hell, deploy the genestealers on your side of the board, behind hormagaunts. The horror has 24" range. You don't need to start in range of those marines to lock them down.

I'm not suggesting this is easy. or that you can make one throw away unit and have it become god like. But we can do way more with what we've been told then what we're letting on. We're all doom and gloom before we've even put our units on the board.

Not bad, but I can do better.

Put a bastion, exit facing forward, on the edge of your table half. Infiltrate inside. Turn 1 (or 2 if you have first turn) jump out 6" and you're now 6" past the halfway point before your opponent has a shot on you. Oh, but there's Firing slits so your broodlord can cast a power first. Did I mention that you can assault after disembarking from a Bastion? Put 20 in there. I don't care what the internet says, I don't care what logic says. Get 20 genestealers that close to your opponent that fast untouched and they will crap themselves. Heck, slap a Venomthrope inside the bastion afterwards and leave a trail of Stealers so they get shrouded if they fail the charge. Really, just f*** with your opponents head. This codex isn't an auto win, but both Tau and Eldar have a MAJOR lack of ranged anti Bastion.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
It's a -3 to leadership tests to all enemy psykers within range, iirc.

As to whether it's a -3 to their leadershi[ carte blanche or only in regards to psychic tests, I can't say.

"All enemy units and models with the psyker, psychic pilot or brotherhood of psykers special rules suffer a -3 penalty to their leadership whilst they are within 12" of one or more the models with the shadow in the warp special rule - a direct quote.

You still can't cast maledictions out of firing ports, or launch an assault on the top of Turn 1 if you infiltrate.

That means you can't Horror from inside the Bastion, and if you want to Infiltrate into it for a first turn assault, you have to go second, which means someone gets to roll up and assault the bastion with frag grenades, killing all your genestealers. Or you go first, pop out and are left standing their with your cheese in the wind, waiting to take a round of bolter fire to the face.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
You still can't cast maledictions out of firing ports, or launch an assault on the top of Turn 1 if you infiltrate.

That means you can't Horror from inside the Bastion, and if you want to Infiltrate into it for a first turn assault, you have to go second, which means someone gets to roll up and assault the bastion with frag grenades, killing all your genestealers. Or you go first, pop out and are left standing their with your cheese in the wind, waiting to take a round of bolter fire to the face.

Or you ally in a cheap Inquisitor, place a servo skull right next to the Bastion and you're left hosed, too.

Most of my lists will probably see one of these if I'm not equipped for assault. If I am, then sure, come right at me. I'll gladly blend some genestealers.

 Roci wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
It's a -3 to leadership tests to all enemy psykers within range, iirc.

As to whether it's a -3 to their leadershi[ carte blanche or only in regards to psychic tests, I can't say.

"All enemy units and models with the psyker, psychic pilot or brotherhood of psykers special rules suffer a -3 penalty to their leadership whilst they are within 12" of one or more the models with the shadow in the warp special rule - a direct quote.

Thanks.

Havent seen these pictures on Dakka yet. Someone posted this on /r/warhammer40k a few hours ago. http://imgur.com/a/8w57g

Everyone complaining that the book is underpowered needs to take a breather and actually read it. Its not Tau or Eldar (thank god) but its plenty competitive. 2 top tier flyers, Exocrine gets BS 4 if it sits still and fires 6 str 7 ap 2 shots (!!!). Haruspex is arguably a better troop blender than death company dreadnought.

See its all this "Well I will just take an ally..." that stings a bit too. Thought we would get something in exchange for no allies.

 Roci wrote:

"All enemy units and models with the psyker, psychic pilot or brotherhood of psykers special rules suffer a -3 penalty to their leadership whilst they are within 12" of one or more the models with the shadow in the warp special rule - a direct quote.

Those poor Grey Knights. I suppose they know fear now.

 Gloomfang wrote:
See its all this "Well I will just take an ally..." that stings a bit too. Thought we would get something in exchange for no allies.

Sure we did. We got [censored] instead.

Take that for what you will.

 TheKbob wrote:

Marrak wrote:Okay...

As a Sisters player... more power to you!

madmanrambler wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
And you're getting a broodlord close to marines how?

By the time they get there, you'll be nearly dead. Just like stealers have been since I started in 5E. Nothing in this book is striking me as amazing. I still think I could table armies using Space Wolves... and that's not saying much.

It seems like the same boring lists and deletion of good things like Spore Pods.

Infiltrate, hiding in cover, venomthropes deployed so that they're just barely touching your genestealer unit and giving them shrouded, soak the board in targets that are more important then a measly 5 genestealers and a broodlord. You start 18" away, just one move away from hitting them with the horror. This is assuming, worst case scenario, you deployed first and had the initiative stolen from you. Or hell, deploy the genestealers on your side of the board, behind hormagaunts. The horror has 24" range. You don't need to start in range of those marines to lock them down.

I'm not suggesting this is easy. or that you can make one throw away unit and have it become god like. But we can do way more with what we've been told then what we're letting on. We're all doom and gloom before we've even put our units on the board.

Cool, I use my allied Inquisitor for 34 points to place servo skulls so you can't infiltrate crap. They can ally with every army save Nids and Chaos. Then I fire one of "ignore cover saves" things at the venomthrope and murder it softly, like I did in fifth... without ignores cover saves...

It's one spell. It's kinda neat. But on a garbage unit. On a dude that costs a lot of points.

PS: It's just a game. Cool, I'll play at 2000 pts, you play at 500 and it's just a game? Neat right? Who cares! If it's just a game why do people get mad when I bring a GT level list against a fluffy list. It's just a game, right? I mean, you're a fluff player, you don't care about winning. Here's the narrative... your force met a stronger force and was annihilated to the man in short order standing no chance to a superior foe. Fun, let's do it next week?

Hey, didn't mean to hit a nerve there. I realize its frustrating with all the discussion about narratives and beer N pretzels, but you and I don't have to bring that discussion into the debate. Lets keep it purely rules focused, eh? Besides, you're helping me figure out how to refine the horror and get it to work better.

Alright, so servo skulls are stopping the infiltrate. For the sake of discussion, lets keep the sure bet of genestealers and a broodlord for the sakes of discussing the horror. So, I've still got a 24" bubble that could seriously mess a shooting units day up. I'll admit, its not the best deal for 130 points, but it's going to be our only real source of assault grenades. 7 T4 wounds to chew through, with 2 of them being on a 4+ armor save. How much firepower would have to be devoted to kill that? Probably 2 tac squads, if we're assuming space marines...
Can you list off the ignore covers stuff? I'm aware of the divination psychic power, thunderfire cannons with barrage, and LRRs along with all flamers, but thats all I really know for SM and most imperium. I guess legion of the damned?

CinciWarBoss wrote:
Havent seen these pictures on Dakka yet. Someone posted this on /r/warhammer40k a few hours ago. http://imgur.com/a/8w57g

Everyone complaining that the book is underpowered needs to take a breather and actually read it. Its not Tau or Eldar (thank god) but its plenty competitive. 2 top tier flyers, Exocrine gets BS 4 if it sits still and fires 6 str 7 ap 2 shots (!!!). Haruspex is arguably a better troop blender than death company dreadnought.

What's the two top tier flyers?

You don't mean the two that can be almost instant killed by a single quad gun, right? If you fail a grounding test, you can murder one in a turn. Give Stronghold assault and the ability to have multiple Bastions/Aegis Lines and getting allies with Fast Shot, High BS, etc., you could readily have a list that drops them as soon as they come on. This is without air support.

I'd hate to see what a squad of intercepting broadsides does to one...

CinciWarBoss wrote:
Havent seen these pictures on Dakka yet. Someone posted this on /r/warhammer40k a few hours ago. http://imgur.com/a/8w57g

Everyone complaining that the book is underpowered needs to take a breather and actually read it. Its not Tau or Eldar (thank god) but its plenty competitive. 2 top tier flyers, Exocrine gets BS 4 if it sits still and fires 6 str 7 ap 2 shots (!!!). Haruspex is arguably a better troop blender than death company dreadnought.

Aren't we avoiding vacuums?

A DC dread can drop pod or piggy back on a stormraven. Guess how many ways a haruspex can get across the board?

Since we have so many tyranid experts, we know what happens when an army with cheap disposable transports plants them in front of a walking haruspex? Or an army brings cheap disposable bubble wrap. So the tau shoot you, overwatch you with everything, you eat 60pts in kroot, and stand in the open to be shot twice more.

The exocrine is good, yes. I would take 2 if anything else in the codex actually made me excited to play nids again.

rothrich wrote:
I have been reading this thread with a lot of interest. I love when a new codex drops because I love to see all the whining from the "Competitive" players. Look people GW has stated on several occasions that they consider the game a "Beer and Pretzels" game. Those are the words of the people who made the game. If you want a competitive game then there are way better systems out there for that. If your argument is that "But 40k is what is popular in my area" then pm me I will be happy to buy your unpainted models for 80% off retail and you can take that money and buy yourself a nice boring taudar army and everyone with the idea of playing competitive 40k can just play taudar v. taudar. I personally think that this new nid codex sounds like it has a lot of flavor and flair. It sounds like it will be a fun book to read and a fun army to play against because the book is well balanced in the fact that there is no "must take" unit. I fortunately don't have to play pick up games so I never had to deal with the whole 4 tervigon thing or three riptides or 10 wave serpents or any other derpy army like that. If what you want is an I win button than play taudar, if what you want is competition play taudar or switch systems. If what you want is to build and paint cool models, and to play a fun casual game with your friends then play 40k. Don't whine because the company that makes a game that is made for a casual environment has written another book that will be fun in a casual environment.

Funny I personaly think that this new nid codex is bland and boring, that nids went from outworldly intelligent threat that can fight Space Marines on even terms (at least in feel, not necessarily in results) and apply some advanced tactics to horde capable mainly of throwing bodies at the opponent. You could do the latter before, now it seems you have to.

Oh and your great casual play is great, how about you get a few more guys into your circle? Don't forget to write down the requirements though - max 1 riptide/wave serpent/vendetta/doom sythe, max number of the same units 2, allies only allowed after voting of the great casual council. What a crap. And what a crap game that produces such attitudes.

Jifel, couldn't you in theory take one of the longer fortifications like say the firestorm redoubt (which has automated fire so the nids don't have to worry about manning the weapons) or even the fortress of redemption. Turn it sideways, put an escape hatch 12 inches even further.

Then infiltrate. Deploy within 6 inches of disembarking and you will have cleared the entire middle of the board on turn 1 with your genestealers.

Its gamey, but it would be hilarious to see. Remember guys "its just beer and pretzels" so seeing someone come up with such a clever trick is "all in good fun".

If it does work ill have to try it.

CinciWarBoss wrote:
Havent seen these pictures on Dakka yet. Someone posted this on /r/warhammer40k a few hours ago. http://imgur.com/a/8w57g

Everyone complaining that the book is underpowered needs to take a breather and actually read it. Its not Tau or Eldar (thank god) but its plenty competitive. 2 top tier flyers, Exocrine gets BS 4 if it sits still and fires 6 str 7 ap 2 shots (!!!). Haruspex is arguably a better troop blender than death company dreadnought.

....Yeeeeah....Top tier fliers? T5 4+ fliers are top tier? You know a quadgun will be killing one a turn more than likely. Nothing about either of the fliers is remotely top tier, hell I don't really see a reason to play either of them. Stand still and fire plasma guns like a space marine! Woohoo! It has to move to get into that 24" range, missing half of its shoots as it does, even with BS 4 it is still only hitting 4 times. The best way to use it is as its blast template and that is still just "okay" in the current 40k meta. Haruspex...did you even read it? If so, read it again. ONLY on the charge does it generate its bonus attacks. Even then at WS3...I want to like the Haruspex but it only has 3 attacks, 4 on the charge, then it will more than likely see a return of about 2 or 3 of those attacks so it is getting, what, 7ish attacks on the charge? Next turn it just sits there and makes its 3 attacks at WS 3 until the unit tarpitting it.

At the beginning of each turn, units that are outside the range of friendly Synapse creatures must take a Leadersip test unless they are: engaged in combat, falling back, have gone to ground or arrived from reserve this turn...

Is going to ground a way to make backfield, objective camping termagants?

madmanrambler wrote:


Hey, didn't mean to hit a nerve there. I realize its frustrating with all the discussion about narratives and beer N pretzels, but you and I don't have to bring that discussion into the debate. Lets keep it purely rules focused, eh? Besides, you're helping me figure out how to refine the horror and get it to work better.

Alright, so servo skulls are stopping the infiltrate. For the sake of discussion, lets keep the sure bet of genestealers and a broodlord for the sakes of discussing the horror. So, I've still got a 24" bubble that could seriously mess a shooting units day up. I'll admit, its not the best deal for 130 points, but it's going to be our only real source of assault grenades. 7 T4 wounds to chew through, with 2 of them being on a 4+ armor save. How much firepower would have to be devoted to kill that? Probably 2 tac squads, if we're assuming space marines...
Can you list off the ignore covers stuff? I'm aware of the divination psychic power, thunderfire cannons with barrage, and LRRs along with all flamers, but thats all I really know for SM and most imperium. I guess legion of the damned?

Last bit wasn't at you, sorry. It was at other dude talking about "Yo man, let's just have fun, bro." When I can take an army of Stealers, Warriors, and Ravagers and have it not be a pile of suck, yea, I'd agree.

Keep in mind that Xenos can ally with the Inquisition. So Tau/Eldar/Orks/Necrons can also bring the servo skulls of doom. Only Chaos and Nids cannot ally with them. I agree that it's the only form of assault grenades which makes me very sad. It should be just straight up some sort of pheramone or speed or something that just says "acts as assault grenades".

I think a lot of things will still chew through genestealers. I could bring a unit of grav bikes in SM. I could shoot some gravy guns and some TL bolters. Determining on who's up front, I would say either take the AP5 shots first or AP2. Yes, the gravity needs 5s to wound, but them's the breaks. I don't need many. And Venomthropes, unless they are now ICs or some special antitargeting rule die very, very quickly. by not being able to go to ground, their cover save will be lackluster meaning an amount of S8 volleys will kill it. I did that routinely with wolves ( I don't play them anymore ). I could see using Scouting melta guns to do this now with sisters and Draigowing wouldn't care. My new Eldar, I'd have to think about because I'm not spamming wave serpents, wraithknights, warp spidres, and Jetseer.

Just realized GK must fear Nids a lot now. SiTW + Horror = hello GK unit with Ld 4-5.

I know tons of people have theirs but not sure if anyone scanned them. I got to read one till the shop closed. They wouldn't let me take it though. At least I got to read it.

 TheKbob wrote:

CinciWarBoss wrote:
Havent seen these pictures on Dakka yet. Someone posted this on /r/warhammer40k a few hours ago. http://imgur.com/a/8w57g

Everyone complaining that the book is underpowered needs to take a breather and actually read it. Its not Tau or Eldar (thank god) but its plenty competitive. 2 top tier flyers, Exocrine gets BS 4 if it sits still and fires 6 str 7 ap 2 shots (!!!). Haruspex is arguably a better troop blender than death company dreadnought.

What's the two top tier flyers?

You don't mean the two that can be almost instant killed by a single quad gun, right? If you fail a grounding test, you can murder one in a turn. Give Stronghold assault and the ability to have multiple Bastions/Aegis Lines and getting allies with Fast Shot, High BS, etc., you could readily have a list that drops them as soon as they come on. This is without air support.

I'd hate to see what a squad of intercepting broadsides does to one...

Im not going to do the math hammer, but common sense says there is VERY little chance that quad gun "instant kills" harpy/cron. Generously it hits 3-4 times, wounds 2-3 times, jinks 1-2 of those wounds and has a 1/3 chance of taking another by falling. Good thing it has 5 wounds and can take 4+ regeneration, a torrent weapon to roast the gunners and a str 8 vector strike.

Why does a FMC care about intercepting broadsides? Start on the board in glide mode.

 l0k1 wrote:
Also, for those who look down on casual gamers, perhaps YOU are the ones that should move on to different game/hobby. If winning, obtaining prizes, and being super competitive is THAT important to you then perhaps you should play Magic. The game offers much more for people like you.

To appropriately answer all the bs about prizes and super competitive (?) you've just write, I'd have to tell you to go make a casual battle with your friends where you make loud gun sounds and just push each other's models off the table and leave rules discussion to people that want actual substance in their games. Should be easy you don't care anyway, it's all good.

 TheKbob wrote:


Last bit wasn't at you, sorry. It was at other dude talking about "Yo man, let's just have fun, bro." When I can take an army of Stealers, Warriors, and Ravagers and have it not be a pile of suck, yea, I'd agree.

Keep in mind that Xenos can ally with the Inquisition. So Tau/Eldar/Orks/Necrons can also bring the servo skulls of doom. Only Chaos and Nids cannot ally with them. I agree that it's the only form of assault grenades which makes me very sad. It should be just straight up some sort of pheramone or speed or something that just says "acts as assault grenades".

I think a lot of things will still chew through genestealers. I could bring a unit of grav bikes in SM. I could shoot some gravy guns and some TL bolters. Determining on who's up front, I would say either take the AP5 shots first or AP2. Yes, the gravity needs 5s to wound, but them's the breaks. I don't need many. And Venomthropes, unless they are now ICs or some special antitargeting rule die very, very quickly. by not being able to go to ground, their cover save will be lackluster meaning an amount of S8 volleys will kill it. I did that routinely with wolves ( I don't play them anymore ). I could see using Scouting melta guns to do this now with sisters and Draigowing wouldn't care. My new Eldar, I'd have to think about because I'm not spamming wave serpents, wraithknights, warp spidres, and Jetseer.

I don't know about lackluster cover saves, stick a bunch of hormagaunts in front of a venomthrope and you've got 3+ cover.
Still, it doesn't exactly look ideal, I'd have to risk. I'm curious, why would you use the grav guns period? Just to ensure that Broodlord doesn't get a save? seems a bit excessive, especially considering that, based on how I built my army, those grav guns could do Jack diddily for the rest of the match except for picking on the occasional synapse creature.
EDIT not to say I'm planning to build a horde army. Just pointing out that Tyranids might go gaunt spam, and I'm curious as to why you'd go with grav guns.

And I don't know about not being able to run a viable army of Warriors, again, stick them behind a wall of gaunts, stick some venomthropes with them, you've got 3+ cover. not ideal mind you, but its certainly better than last edition.

And Venomthropes don't look to be ICs and they look to be shootable, so I guess they won't be performing amazingly well. sad to see.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
You still can't cast maledictions out of firing ports, or launch an assault on the top of Turn 1 if you infiltrate.

That means you can't Horror from inside the Bastion, and if you want to Infiltrate into it for a first turn assault, you have to go second, which means someone gets to roll up and assault the bastion with frag grenades, killing all your genestealers. Or you go first, pop out and are left standing their with your cheese in the wind, waiting to take a round of bolter fire to the face.

 jifel wrote:


Not bad, but I can do better.

Put a bastion, exit facing forward, on the edge of your table half. Infiltrate inside. Turn 1 (or 2 if you have first turn) jump out 6" and you're now 6" past the halfway point before your opponent has a shot on you. Oh, but there's Firing slits so your broodlord can cast a power first. Did I mention that you can assault after disembarking from a Bastion? Put 20 in there. I don't care what the internet says, I don't care what logic says. Get 20 genestealers that close to your opponent that fast untouched and they will crap themselves. Heck, slap a Venomthrope inside the bastion afterwards and leave a trail of Stealers so they get shrouded if they fail the charge. Really, just f*** with your opponents head. This codex isn't an auto win, but both Tau and Eldar have a MAJOR lack of ranged anti Bastion.

Good point on the Maledictions through fire slits though. And frankly, no one will run up towards a bastion to assault it when there's a full Tyranid army barrelling down on them.

Jump the Stealers out whenever you choose to, but your opponent has a massive "GTFO" zone in the middle of the board now, and a gunline/balanced army will avoid it like the plague. This allows you to control the center of the board while your army runs up in Venom cover too. Is it game-breaking? No. Will it scare your opponent, surprise him, and force him to react to you? Yes. Tyranids have always won through fear tactics, positioning and board control. In an objective game, that's how we will do it. This codex is not a gift from the Design team that we may crush all before us without thought or tactics.

CinciWarBoss wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

CinciWarBoss wrote:
Havent seen these pictures on Dakka yet. Someone posted this on /r/warhammer40k a few hours ago. http://imgur.com/a/8w57g

Everyone complaining that the book is underpowered needs to take a breather and actually read it. Its not Tau or Eldar (thank god) but its plenty competitive. 2 top tier flyers, Exocrine gets BS 4 if it sits still and fires 6 str 7 ap 2 shots (!!!). Haruspex is arguably a better troop blender than death company dreadnought.

What's the two top tier flyers?

You don't mean the two that can be almost instant killed by a single quad gun, right? If you fail a grounding test, you can murder one in a turn. Give Stronghold assault and the ability to have multiple Bastions/Aegis Lines and getting allies with Fast Shot, High BS, etc., you could readily have a list that drops them as soon as they come on. This is without air support.

I'd hate to see what a squad of intercepting broadsides does to one...

Im not going to do the math hammer, but common sense says there is VERY little chance that quad gun "instant kills" harpy/cron. Generously it hits 3-4 times, wounds 2-3 times, jinks 1-2 of those wounds and has a 1/3 chance of taking another by falling. Good thing it has 5 wounds and can take 4+ regeneration, a torrent weapon to roast the gunners and a str 8 vector strike.

Why does a FMC care about intercepting broadsides? Start on the board in glide mode.

What are you going to hide it behind? It being on a flyer base means it will likely will always stick out. It's Flamer isn't torrent so your 24" move likely won't get you in range of the quad troop.

If you don't get first turn it could die before it touches a thing.

If you force the Crone to jink to get cover, it doesn't get to fire it's torrent weapon, then it's already wounded and now in the center of my army. I will fire random chaff at it like storm bolters until it splats on the ground and waste it with bolter fire.

Impressive. Almost as much as what I've done to Hive Tyrants (drop them with storm bolters / multi laser / HB on vehicles and then shoot Exorcists and Meltaguns at them when they crash and burn.)

But maybe 3 crones for saturation. Then you're just playing flyer spam and that's ever so exciting... *sigh*. Why couldn't Warriors be good for once?

Still a lot of people defending the codex with false info.

The horror does not modify leadership. It's a pinning test with a -2 penalty.

The drool cannon on the crone is not a torrent weapon.

Like I said earlier there's a lot of optimists who haven't properly assimilated a the info yet. Prolly some pessimists as well to be fair. Waiting it out now is the best bet.

Everyone has formed their opinions and results will shape opinions more than someone on the Internet.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

CinciWarBoss wrote:
Havent seen these pictures on Dakka yet. Someone posted this on /r/warhammer40k a few hours ago. http://imgur.com/a/8w57g

Everyone complaining that the book is underpowered needs to take a breather and actually read it. Its not Tau or Eldar (thank god) but its plenty competitive. 2 top tier flyers, Exocrine gets BS 4 if it sits still and fires 6 str 7 ap 2 shots (!!!). Haruspex is arguably a better troop blender than death company dreadnought.

....Yeeeeah....Top tier fliers? T5 4+ fliers are top tier? You know a quadgun will be killing one a turn more than likely. Nothing about either of the fliers is remotely top tier, hell I don't really see a reason to play either of them. Stand still and fire plasma guns like a space marine! Woohoo! It has to move to get into that 24" range, missing half of its shoots as it does, even with BS 4 it is still only hitting 4 times. The best way to use it is as its blast template and that is still just "okay" in the current 40k meta. Haruspex...did you even read it? If so, read it again. ONLY on the charge does it generate its bonus attacks. Even then at WS3...I want to like the Haruspex but it only has 3 attacks, 4 on the charge, then it will more than likely see a return of about 2 or 3 of those attacks so it is getting, what, 7ish attacks on the charge? Next turn it just sits there and makes its 3 attacks at WS 3 until the unit tarpitting it.

5 wounds, 4+ regen, str 8 vector strike, torrent weapons, homing missiles, less than 175 points, what flyer is better? The exocrine is a more durable, more versatile, slower version of the annihilation barge. Are you honestly arguing that 6 str 7 ap 2 shots isn't awesome? I agree that the haruspex might suffer from slow and big disease but it is still very killy and I can imagine it will regenerate like crazy. regenerating 3 wounds a turn on a t6 3+ model is no joke. I think it will see use, maybe not in the power gaming scene though.

CinciWarBoss wrote:
Havent seen these pictures on Dakka yet. Someone posted this on /r/warhammer40k a few hours ago. http://imgur.com/a/8w57g

Nice rules on Volatile! Haha


For those that haven't seen it:

Every unit on the board takes a number of S3 hits equal to the models within 1d6".

CinciWarBoss wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:


5 wounds, 4+ regen, str 8 vector strike, torrent weapons, homing missiles, less than 175 points, what flyer is better? The exocrine is a more durable, more versatile, slower version of the annihilation barge. Are you honestly arguing that 6 str 7 ap 2 shots isn't awesome? I agree that the haruspex might suffer from slow and big disease but it is still very killy and I can imagine it will regenerate like crazy. regenerating 3 wounds a turn on a t6 3+ model is no joke. I think it will see use, maybe not in the power gaming scene though.

You mean a unit that will get to vector strike the second turn it moves, have S5 missiles that can glance vehicles real good, NO torrent weapon, and has to hide in reserve or be blasted off the table first turn?

Here's a fun fact about regen. You can't do it if your dead. A good general will focus fire on a wounded model until dead unless otherwise not tactically sound (meaning something else needs to die).

Wait... so the rumor of the Harpy and Crone not being able to be grounded is also false, or is that still up in the air?

Because if that's the case, nevermind a quad gun. Someone can just biomancy its toughness down, ground it, and watch it splat like a water balloon when it hits dirt.

CinciWarBoss wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

CinciWarBoss wrote:
Havent seen these pictures on Dakka yet. Someone posted this on /r/warhammer40k a few hours ago. http://imgur.com/a/8w57g

Everyone complaining that the book is underpowered needs to take a breather and actually read it. Its not Tau or Eldar (thank god) but its plenty competitive. 2 top tier flyers, Exocrine gets BS 4 if it sits still and fires 6 str 7 ap 2 shots (!!!). Haruspex is arguably a better troop blender than death company dreadnought.

....Yeeeeah....Top tier fliers? T5 4+ fliers are top tier? You know a quadgun will be killing one a turn more than likely. Nothing about either of the fliers is remotely top tier, hell I don't really see a reason to play either of them. Stand still and fire plasma guns like a space marine! Woohoo! It has to move to get into that 24" range, missing half of its shoots as it does, even with BS 4 it is still only hitting 4 times. The best way to use it is as its blast template and that is still just "okay" in the current 40k meta. Haruspex...did you even read it? If so, read it again. ONLY on the charge does it generate its bonus attacks. Even then at WS3...I want to like the Haruspex but it only has 3 attacks, 4 on the charge, then it will more than likely see a return of about 2 or 3 of those attacks so it is getting, what, 7ish attacks on the charge? Next turn it just sits there and makes its 3 attacks at WS 3 until the unit tarpitting it.

5 wounds, 4+ regen, str 8 vector strike, torrent weapons, homing missiles, less than 175 points, what flyer is better? The exocrine is a more durable, more versatile, slower version of the annihilation barge. Are you honestly arguing that 6 str 7 ap 2 shots isn't awesome? I agree that the haruspex might suffer from slow and big disease but it is still very killy and I can imagine it will regenerate like crazy. regenerating 3 wounds a turn on a t6 3+ model is no joke. I think it will see use, maybe not in the power gaming scene though.

Here's the kicker. Pretty much your entire view of the rules are wrong.

There is no torrent on the crone.
Homing mean re-roll to hit against flyers and FMC.
A quad guy by a BS4 person will hit with an 8 of 9 shots, wound 5 of 6 times. You'll have to then jink and can't use your flamer.
Haruspex can only regen 1 wound due to his rules, not 3. It could be two if it charged and bought regen for 30 points.

CinciWarBoss wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

CinciWarBoss wrote:
Havent seen these pictures on Dakka yet. Someone posted this on /r/warhammer40k a few hours ago. http://imgur.com/a/8w57g

Everyone complaining that the book is underpowered needs to take a breather and actually read it. Its not Tau or Eldar (thank god) but its plenty competitive. 2 top tier flyers, Exocrine gets BS 4 if it sits still and fires 6 str 7 ap 2 shots (!!!). Haruspex is arguably a better troop blender than death company dreadnought.

....Yeeeeah....Top tier fliers? T5 4+ fliers are top tier? You know a quadgun will be killing one a turn more than likely. Nothing about either of the fliers is remotely top tier, hell I don't really see a reason to play either of them. Stand still and fire plasma guns like a space marine! Woohoo! It has to move to get into that 24" range, missing half of its shoots as it does, even with BS 4 it is still only hitting 4 times. The best way to use it is as its blast template and that is still just "okay" in the current 40k meta. Haruspex...did you even read it? If so, read it again. ONLY on the charge does it generate its bonus attacks. Even then at WS3...I want to like the Haruspex but it only has 3 attacks, 4 on the charge, then it will more than likely see a return of about 2 or 3 of those attacks so it is getting, what, 7ish attacks on the charge? Next turn it just sits there and makes its 3 attacks at WS 3 until the unit tarpitting it.

5 wounds, 4+ regen, str 8 vector strike, torrent weapons, homing missiles, less than 175 points, what flyer is better? The exocrine is a more durable, more versatile, slower version of the annihilation barge. Are you honestly arguing that 6 str 7 ap 2 shots isn't awesome? I agree that the haruspex might suffer from slow and big disease but it is still very killy and I can imagine it will regenerate like crazy. regenerating 3 wounds a turn on a t6 3+ model is no joke. I think it will see use, maybe not in the power gaming scene though.

Meh while I agree that the Crone isn't bad.. but as far as flyers go Heldrake is cheaper and better. Demon Princes are better, necron lyers are better, even in our own codex the Flyrant is better

Stormtalons are better (and can kill a crone in one go, btw), Storm Ravens are better, Vendetta are better. I'd even take the Eldar/Dark Eldar flyers.

At this point, a Sunshark Bomber even.

 DexKivuli wrote:

At the beginning of each turn, units that are outside the range of friendly Synapse creatures must take a Leadersip test unless they are: engaged in combat, falling back, have gone to ground or arrived from reserve this turn...

Is going to ground a way to make backfield, objective camping termagants?

I caught that too. The thing is I think you can only go to ground if being shot at. If the opponent isn't stupid they can just not shoot at that unit and wait for them to inevitably run off the board.

CinciWarBoss wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

CinciWarBoss wrote:
Havent seen these pictures on Dakka yet. Someone posted this on /r/warhammer40k a few hours ago. http://imgur.com/a/8w57g

Everyone complaining that the book is underpowered needs to take a breather and actually read it. Its not Tau or Eldar (thank god) but its plenty competitive. 2 top tier flyers, Exocrine gets BS 4 if it sits still and fires 6 str 7 ap 2 shots (!!!). Haruspex is arguably a better troop blender than death company dreadnought.

....Yeeeeah....Top tier fliers? T5 4+ fliers are top tier? You know a quadgun will be killing one a turn more than likely. Nothing about either of the fliers is remotely top tier, hell I don't really see a reason to play either of them. Stand still and fire plasma guns like a space marine! Woohoo! It has to move to get into that 24" range, missing half of its shoots as it does, even with BS 4 it is still only hitting 4 times. The best way to use it is as its blast template and that is still just "okay" in the current 40k meta. Haruspex...did you even read it? If so, read it again. ONLY on the charge does it generate its bonus attacks. Even then at WS3...I want to like the Haruspex but it only has 3 attacks, 4 on the charge, then it will more than likely see a return of about 2 or 3 of those attacks so it is getting, what, 7ish attacks on the charge? Next turn it just sits there and makes its 3 attacks at WS 3 until the unit tarpitting it.

5 wounds, 4+ regen, str 8 vector strike, torrent weapons, homing missiles, less than 175 points, what flyer is better? The exocrine is a more durable, more versatile, slower version of the annihilation barge. Are you honestly arguing that 6 str 7 ap 2 shots isn't awesome? I agree that the haruspex might suffer from slow and big disease but it is still very killy and I can imagine it will regenerate like crazy. regenerating 3 wounds a turn on a t6 3+ model is no joke. I think it will see use, maybe not in the power gaming scene though.

Seriously...are you even reading responses to your post? You are posting so much false information I don't even know what leaks you are reading.

1. Crone does not have a torrent weapon, has 4 homing missles that are S5 with Haywire and can only shoot 2 a turn. Regen is one wound a turn on a 4+ which is nice, but isn't going to help when a quad gun, which is TL, is probably going to get 4 hits a turn on it, wounding on anything but, forcing a jink. Plus, as with all FMCs, it is easy as hell to ground them and it gets no save unlike Daemon Princes, so just chuck some bolter fire at it, ground it, finish it off.

2. 6 S7 Ap2 shots is not awesome, it is alright. I can take a Vet squad for IG that can do pretty much the same thing and be more mobile but less resilient but be so much cheaper. The Exocrine is the BEST thing about the new codex, I wont bad mouth it but it isn't as great as so many people are trying to prop it up to some level that it isn't.

3. How is the Haruspex regening 3 wounds a turn? As far as I can see you can get one back from CC and one from regen. If I am recalling correctly it's ability to regain wounds is limited to one a turn, if it ISN'T it is never going to deal 3 wounds a turn. It is hitting 50% of the time in the first place so 1 or 2 wounds a turn at best.

NamelessBard wrote:
Here's the kicker. Pretty much your entire view of the rules are wrong.

That is called optimism now, at least by folk who think "competition" is a dirty word to be feared.

 Roci wrote:

CinciWarBoss wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

CinciWarBoss wrote:
Havent seen these pictures on Dakka yet. Someone posted this on /r/warhammer40k a few hours ago. http://imgur.com/a/8w57g

Everyone complaining that the book is underpowered needs to take a breather and actually read it. Its not Tau or Eldar (thank god) but its plenty competitive. 2 top tier flyers, Exocrine gets BS 4 if it sits still and fires 6 str 7 ap 2 shots (!!!). Haruspex is arguably a better troop blender than death company dreadnought.

What's the two top tier flyers?

You don't mean the two that can be almost instant killed by a single quad gun, right? If you fail a grounding test, you can murder one in a turn. Give Stronghold assault and the ability to have multiple Bastions/Aegis Lines and getting allies with Fast Shot, High BS, etc., you could readily have a list that drops them as soon as they come on. This is without air support.

I'd hate to see what a squad of intercepting broadsides does to one...

Im not going to do the math hammer, but common sense says there is VERY little chance that quad gun "instant kills" harpy/cron. Generously it hits 3-4 times, wounds 2-3 times, jinks 1-2 of those wounds and has a 1/3 chance of taking another by falling. Good thing it has 5 wounds and can take 4+ regeneration, a torrent weapon to roast the gunners and a str 8 vector strike.

Why does a FMC care about intercepting broadsides? Start on the board in glide mode.

What are you going to hide it behind? It being on a flyer base means it will likely will always stick out. It's Flamer isn't torrent so your 24" move likely won't get you in range of the quad troop.

If you don't get first turn it could die before it touches a thing.

Every model in the game can die before it does anything if you don't get first turn. It is still a very good flyer with a low price. Compare it to a stormraven, which is much more expensive, far less durable, and must start in reserves. Hide it behind your venomthrope for shrouded. I would rather that than have to worry about rolling it out of reserves. Target saturation is a good thing.

You can now start a Storm Raven on a Skyshield first turn with a 4++ save (thanks, Stronghold!)

Venomthropes are eating up your elite slot now and are easy targets for anything that ignores cover.

Read pretty much every book out there right now has it.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

CinciWarBoss wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

CinciWarBoss wrote:
Havent seen these pictures on Dakka yet. Someone posted this on /r/warhammer40k a few hours ago. http://imgur.com/a/8w57g

Everyone complaining that the book is underpowered needs to take a breather and actually read it. Its not Tau or Eldar (thank god) but its plenty competitive. 2 top tier flyers, Exocrine gets BS 4 if it sits still and fires 6 str 7 ap 2 shots (!!!). Haruspex is arguably a better troop blender than death company dreadnought.

....Yeeeeah....Top tier fliers? T5 4+ fliers are top tier? You know a quadgun will be killing one a turn more than likely. Nothing about either of the fliers is remotely top tier, hell I don't really see a reason to play either of them. Stand still and fire plasma guns like a space marine! Woohoo! It has to move to get into that 24" range, missing half of its shoots as it does, even with BS 4 it is still only hitting 4 times. The best way to use it is as its blast template and that is still just "okay" in the current 40k meta. Haruspex...did you even read it? If so, read it again. ONLY on the charge does it generate its bonus attacks. Even then at WS3...I want to like the Haruspex but it only has 3 attacks, 4 on the charge, then it will more than likely see a return of about 2 or 3 of those attacks so it is getting, what, 7ish attacks on the charge? Next turn it just sits there and makes its 3 attacks at WS 3 until the unit tarpitting it.

5 wounds, 4+ regen, str 8 vector strike, torrent weapons, homing missiles, less than 175 points, what flyer is better? The exocrine is a more durable, more versatile, slower version of the annihilation barge. Are you honestly arguing that 6 str 7 ap 2 shots isn't awesome? I agree that the haruspex might suffer from slow and big disease but it is still very killy and I can imagine it will regenerate like crazy. regenerating 3 wounds a turn on a t6 3+ model is no joke. I think it will see use, maybe not in the power gaming scene though.

Seriously...are you even reading responses to your post? You are posting so much false information I don't even know what leaks you are reading.

1. Crone does not have a torrent weapon, has 4 homing missles that are S5 with Haywire and can only shoot 2 a turn. Regen is one wound a turn on a 4+ which is nice, but isn't going to help when a quad gun, which is TL, is probably going to get 4 hits a turn on it, wounding on anything but, forcing a jink. Plus, as with all FMCs, it is easy as hell to ground them and it gets no save unlike Daemon Princes, so just chuck some bolter fire at it, ground it, finish it off.

2. 6 S7 Ap2 shots is not awesome, it is alright. I can take a Vet squad for IG that can do pretty much the same thing and be more mobile but less resilient but be so much cheaper. The Exocrine is the BEST thing about the new codex, I wont bad mouth it but it isn't as great as so many people are trying to prop it up to some level that it isn't.

3. How is the Haruspex regening 3 wounds a turn? As far as I can see you can get one back from CC and one from regen. If I am recalling correctly it's ability to regain wounds is limited to one a turn, if it ISN'T it is never going to deal 3 wounds a turn. It is hitting 50% of the time in the first place so 1 or 2 wounds a turn at best.

I was talking about the harpy, but I went back and looked about the torrent. I was reading acid spray not drool cannon, my bad on the torrent thing. I still argue that it is a very good flyer for low cost compared to comparable flyers. Saying that it can be killed by a quad gun is irrelevant to that argument. Every flyer can be killed by dedicated anti air. If you are worried about it, kill the quad gun before it comes on. That hasn't changed since 6th edition was released and is irrelevant to whether the tyranid flyers are good. (IMO)

I think we will have to wait and see on the exocrine front. I would much rather fight vets who are are a glass hammer.

I got 3 wound regen from: 1 from "gulp" special rule on its shooting tongue. 2 from causing a wound in melee (doesn't even say unsaved wound). 3 form 4+ regen.

Since we have so many tyranid experts, we know what happens when an army with cheap disposable transports plants them in front of a walking haruspex?

You blow up one and walk over it...

The same way I blow up rhinos and drive my rhinos over their wrecks...

 TheKbob wrote:
You can now start a Storm Raven on a Skyshield first turn with a 4++ save (thanks, Stronghold!)

Venomthropes are eating up your elite slot now and are easy targets for anything that ignores cover.

Read pretty much every book out there right now has it.

Stormraven and a landing pad are ~300 points. That is 2 harpys. This argument that venomthropes are not good because some small number of units ignore cover is silly. You could just as easily argue that monstrous creatures are not good because some models have force weapons. Hey guys, nobody take MC's, Paladins can take Daemon hammers. Pack in the whole codex, game over. Nobody take power armor troops, the helldrake has an ap 3 torrent weapon. Nobody take land raiders, IG have melta spam. In fact, if you are not running 2++ rerollable seer councils you are a noob and should be embarrassed. Oh wait. there are D weapons now. Nobody take that it has a weakness. Lets all only take revenants.

 TheKbob wrote:
You can now start a Storm Raven on a Skyshield first turn with a 4++ save (thanks, Stronghold!)

Venomthropes are eating up your elite slot now and are easy targets for anything that ignores cover.

Read pretty much every book out there right now has it.

Tau have it.

Eldar have it on one common gun, the Serpent Shield.

"Pretty much every"? What about (Sm, CSM, DA, BA, Daemons, DE, Crons, Orks Sisters, Nids) which don't have that much or any ignores cover. Solution? Simple. Put it in a Bastion. Tau are bad against Bastions, sorry. So are Eldar. Killed it with another army? Great, its in the ruins with a 2++ cover.

PS Venoms eating up slots? What the heck else are we putting in there? Elites took a collective shot to the crotch, minus Venomthropes. Hive Guard are possibly meh and Lictors are curiosity inducing at best, otherwise, no. Venoms are our best Elite now.

There is a bit too much negativity. Yes some units sucked, no its not what we wanted, yes its frustrating. But heck I'm not giving up on the book! I feel like the only one throwing out tactics and ideas here. And even if it is a bad book, what? It's the one we got. I'm not a quitter, I'll stick to the book. I'll enjoy bucking the trend if I must, because this book isn't Dead on Arrival. Sure its wounded, but we're Nids! Put some thought into it, and it'll Regen.

 IcedAnimals wrote:
Jifel, couldn't you in theory take one of the longer fortifications like say the firestorm redoubt (which has automated fire so the nids don't have to worry about manning the weapons) or even the fortress of redemption. Turn it sideways, put an escape hatch 12 inches even further.

Then infiltrate. Deploy within 6 inches of disembarking and you will have cleared the entire middle of the board on turn 1 with your genestealers.

Its gamey, but it would be hilarious to see. Remember guys "its just beer and pretzels" so seeing someone come up with such a clever trick is "all in good fun".

If it does work ill have to try it.

You still can't assault out of an escape hatch, so your genestealers miraculously appear within rapid fire range and get shot into little tiny pieces.. The only thing that makes it less terrible than Outflanking them is not having to eat the round of Interceptor fire when you arrive.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:

 IcedAnimals wrote:
Jifel, couldn't you in theory take one of the longer fortifications like say the firestorm redoubt (which has automated fire so the nids don't have to worry about manning the weapons) or even the fortress of redemption. Turn it sideways, put an escape hatch 12 inches even further.

Then infiltrate. Deploy within 6 inches of disembarking and you will have cleared the entire middle of the board on turn 1 with your genestealers.

Its gamey, but it would be hilarious to see. Remember guys "its just beer and pretzels" so seeing someone come up with such a clever trick is "all in good fun".

If it does work ill have to try it.

You still can't assault out of an escape hatch, so your genestealers miraculously appear within rapid fire range and get shot into little tiny pieces.. The only thing that makes it less terrible than Outflanking them is not having to eat the round of Interceptor fire when you arrive.

So put a normal hatch up front? You can assault out of that, and it can be up to the halfway point. You still deploy 6" past the midway point, any army that isn't even scared by this is backed WAY up. Too far for a reliable assault? Stay there and jump out later when your opponent is closer, or let him rot in the very far corner while you bunker down on some objectives.

I like the escape hatch so you can go claim an objective, or put a Venomthrope into it, or any other unit, from far away to add options for you in game. And, it lets you get into it turn one if it's all the way up front even without infiltrating.

 jifel wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
You can now start a Storm Raven on a Skyshield first turn with a 4++ save (thanks, Stronghold!)

Venomthropes are eating up your elite slot now and are easy targets for anything that ignores cover.

Read pretty much every book out there right now has it.

Tau have it.

Eldar have it on one common gun, the Serpent Shield.

"Pretty much every"? What about (Sm, CSM, DA, BA, Daemons, DE, Crons, Orks Sisters, Nids) which don't have that much or any ignores cover. Solution? Simple. Put it in a Bastion. Tau are bad against Bastions, sorry. So are Eldar. Killed it with another army? Great, its in the ruins with a 2++ cover.

PS Venoms eating up slots? What the heck else are we putting in there? Elites took a collective shot to the crotch, minus Venomthropes. Hive Guard are possibly meh and Lictors are curiosity inducing at best, otherwise, no. Venoms are our best Elite now.

There is a bit too much negativity. Yes some units sucked, no its not what we wanted, yes its frustrating. But heck I'm not giving up on the book! I feel like the only one throwing out tactics and ideas here. And even if it is a bad book, what? It's the one we got. I'm not a quitter, I'll stick to the book. I'll enjoy bucking the trend if I must, because this book isn't Dead on Arrival. Sure its wounded, but we're Nids! Put some thought into it, and it'll Regen.

When power gamers say "every book out there" they mean Tau and Eldar.

Don't bring your positive fun attitude into this! This is an angry mob! Look at this garbage!!! Not a single re-rollable 2++ save in the whole book!! Where is my T8, W6 jumping MC with sky fire, interceptor and 10 str 8 shots a turn?!?! I was promised Tervigons that produce 4d6 gaunts without burning out!! Why, with this book, I can't expect anywhere close to a 90% win rate. /s

 ductvader wrote:

Since we have so many tyranid experts, we know what happens when an army with cheap disposable transports plants them in front of a walking haruspex?

You blow up one and walk over it...

The same way I blow up rhinos and drive my rhinos over their wrecks...

Yup and every turn you spend assaulting the sacrificial units means another turn of shooting you eat.

@ Jifel ~ Not a lot of ignores cover? Daemons have a bs5 str8 cannon with ignores cover. Perfect for killing venomthropes. How about *any army that can roll divination* can ignore cover with any unit that can join an IC.

 jifel wrote:
There is a bit too much negativity. Yes some units sucked, no its not what we wanted, yes its frustrating. But heck I'm not giving up on the book! I feel like the only one throwing out tactics and ideas here. And even if it is a bad book, what? It's the one we got. I'm not a quitter, I'll stick to the book. I'll enjoy bucking the trend if I must, because this book isn't Dead on Arrival. Sure its wounded, but we're Nids! Put some thought into it, and it'll Regen.

Oh, I think there were a few of us talking about things we liked.

I get that it's a hobby and that people are passionate about the hobby. I also get that we're in the peak part of the emotional cycle of a codex release. But I think the tone in this thread could stand to be lowered a couple levels on all sides. Way too much snarkiness going on IMO, and I worry a little about the health of some of you folks. Even a lot of the more polite posting has been...intense? Sure, I know all of you are cold-blooded killas with ice in your veins...although I suspect your BPs would suggest otherwise.

Anyway, jifel, I'm with you. There are some things that are frustrating about the codex, but I've had frustrations with every single codex I've owned going back to 2nd edition. I've accepted the shortcomings of this one and I'm moving forward with it. There's enough in there that I know I'll have fun with it.

I see a couple of solid possible builds but they depend on specific wording of rules as to whether I think they'll work.

Overall I'm excited for the book. I hated the way Nids played previously and this book brings them back to a style I like. And I feel like it's got the competitive slant I'm looking for.

I do feel that trying to build a psychic list out of this book is doomed to failure though. And since so many people played Nids most recently around psychic powers and tervigons I can see where all the anger comes from.

 hyv3mynd wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

Since we have so many tyranid experts, we know what happens when an army with cheap disposable transports plants them in front of a walking haruspex?

You blow up one and walk over it...

The same way I blow up rhinos and drive my rhinos over their wrecks...

Yup and every turn you spend assaulting the sacrificial units means another turn of shooting you eat.

@ Jifel ~ Not a lot of ignores cover? Daemons have a bs5 str8 cannon with ignores cover. Perfect for killing venomthropes. How about *any army that can roll divination* can ignore cover with any unit that can join an IC.

A Skullcannon? I have never seen one fielded, ever. Not even in a Batrep, not even in the P&M section, not even in the Army list section. Its easy to pull a unit out of any codex that can deal with a unit. I mean, Night Scythes suck because Guard players can take a squadron of two Hydras which can totally deal with it. Except, Guard players never actually take hydras so it works out ok for Necrons somehow. Would any Daemon player ever take a Skullcannon unless they were list-tailoring? You have some points on this being a badly written codex, but people said that last time, and I played it for four years. I can do it again.

As to Divination, yes. If they roll it. And if they pass their Psychic check. If they aren't in Shadow range. And if our Venoms are in line of sight. This is a problem with Farseers (on Tau, who have MLs anyways) and inquisitors. Frankly I don't know who Inquisitors can ally with though.

CinciWarBoss wrote:

When power gamers say "every book out there" they mean Tau and Eldar.

Don't bring your positive fun attitude into this! This is an angry mob! Look at this garbage!!! Not a single re-rollable 2++ save in the whole book!! Where is my T8, W6 jumping MC with sky fire, interceptor and 10 str 8 shots a turn?!?! I was promised Tervigons that produce 4d6 gaunts without burning out!! Why, with this book, I can't expect anywhere close to a 90% win rate. /s

Cool strawman, but I haven't seen anyone complaining about what your claiming.

Oh well, bummer about the building trick. Back to just using the heirophant.

Gentlemen, lets stop this bickering, it and the personal attacks are beneath you.


Oh, and for those asking "when will the dex be posted..."

Or "wait till you see the whole dex".
The codex is here, most of it has been for days....sadly, the recent news has not changed the past..

I have scoured the various sites, and thus far, excepting for the page with trygons on it, they have been posted.
(no, I don't mean rumors, or "I read that..." I mean actual rules from actual pages).


We have;
The special rules.
The warlord table.
The instinctive behavior table.
The psychic powers.
The relics.
The melee and ranged weapons (three pages of them)
The biomorph upgrades (war gear).
We have all the unit and upgrade costs.
We have the entire stat sheet and reference pages in english.
We have detailed descriptions for;

HQ:
SwarmLord
hive tyrant
Old One Eye
Tyranid Prime.
Deathleaper
Tervigons
Tyrant Guard

Troops:
Tyranid Warrors
Stealers (missing full page scan, but have statlines, costs, and upgrades).
Broodloards (missing full page scan, but have statlines, costs, and upgrades).
Hormagants (missing full page scan, but have statlines, costs, and upgrades)
Rippers (missing full page scan, but have statlines, costs, and upgrades)
Termagants (missing full page scan, but have statlines, costs, and upgrades)

Fast:
Harpy
Crone
Raveners
Red Terror
Gargoyles (missing full page scan, but have statlines, costs, and upgrades)
Tyranid Shrike
Sky Slasher Swarm - not sure of upgrades!!!!

Elite
Harspex
Hive Guard
Venomthrope
Lictor
Zonethrope
Pyrovore

Heavy
Biovore
Carnifex (missing full page scan, but have statlines, costs, and upgrades)
Exocrine
Trygon & Prime (missing full page scan, but have statlines, costs, and upgrades)
Mawloc (missing full page scan, but have statlines, costs, and upgrades) - but we have all the rules.
Tryannofex

If all the scanned pages out there had page numbers on them, I could even tell you the exact pages were are missing.
Ladies and gentelmen, we HAVE the codex. There is no mystery, there is no magic information we are missing.

Now, is the sky falling? No.

But intelligent experienced players can make very good estimates as its overall quality - to deny it, or make justification as to why a player should not want or expect a good book, is a waste of energy.

Sure, some amazing combos will come out of it, and yes there will be some eureka moments from it. I have no doubt.

I am confident I will build winning armies out of it, after I took tau to tourneys in 5th, and did very well with them.
But, it was a lot of work, and brokered no error or sloppy play....sadly, something I suspect may be true of this book.

May the hive mind have mercy on us all.....

(oh, and if you know of scans of the missing pages, let me know).
Edited for typos:

 IcedAnimals wrote:
Oh well, bummer about the building trick. Back to just using the heirophant.

I wonder how they fix that unit. Lash whips just give +3I now so its whips are a little useless.

 jifel wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

Since we have so many tyranid experts, we know what happens when an army with cheap disposable transports plants them in front of a walking haruspex?

You blow up one and walk over it...

The same way I blow up rhinos and drive my rhinos over their wrecks...

Yup and every turn you spend assaulting the sacrificial units means another turn of shooting you eat.

@ Jifel ~ Not a lot of ignores cover? Daemons have a bs5 str8 cannon with ignores cover. Perfect for killing venomthropes. How about *any army that can roll divination* can ignore cover with any unit that can join an IC.

A Skullcannon? I have never seen one fielded, ever. Not even in a Batrep, not even in the P&M section, not even in the Army list section. Its easy to pull a unit out of any codex that can deal with a unit. I mean, Night Scythes suck because Guard players can take a squadron of two Hydras which can totally deal with it. Except, Guard players never actually take hydras so it works out ok for Necrons somehow. Would any Daemon player ever take a Skullcannon unless they were list-tailoring? You have some points on this being a badly written codex, but people said that last time, and I played it for four years. I can do it again.

As to Divination, yes. If they roll it. And if they pass their Psychic check. If they aren't in Shadow range. And if our Venoms are in line of sight. This is a problem with Farseers (on Tau, who have MLs anyways) and inquisitors. Frankly I don't know who Inquisitors can ally with though.

One of my blog authors has fielded up to 2 skull cannons regularly, and has outperformed myself at 75% of the events we both attend. He also won our local inviational championships last month without fateweaver or a grimoire. It's unfortunate that the most popular daemon builds are either screamer stars or flying circuses, but skull cannons are not uncompetitive choices.

This is how the meta evolves people. If venomthropes become perceived as such a threat that meta lists change (see: list tailoring to counter riptides, wraithknights, wave serpents, etc), plenty of armies have valid counters that don't require massive rewrites. IG have many methods of ignoring cover, other hive guard, anything with barrage and a directional hit, anything that can vector strike, thunderfire cannons, the list goes on. Just about anything that can ignore cover is a competitively viable unit in a TAC list so a rise in shrouding bubbles will see a counter rise in counter measures.

I'm not buying into the fortification combo. All it takes is a wise opponent to peg your strategy before deployment and out play the gimmick. Relying on a deployment trick that locks you into a predictable placement and movement pattern is shoehorning yourself into a rock/paper/scissors situation.

@davethepak, very good points. We know the codex at this point barring the ridiculous, but we know it. I still think the building trick can work for getting assault units up the board fast.

EDIT: Yes, the bunkers a gimmick. But, countering it is tricky, avoiding it is easy but potentially disastorous if you stay backed up too long. If they think of some way to counter it, I'd have to infiltate the Stealers elsewhere I suppose.

The only thing I just really want to know...is why did they pick on swarmy. I had a custom one built(in my dakka gallery) and had issues getting him in games before this dex. Losing IA ( mostly for the EW) and no forcing re rolls on invul saves. He is a dead man vs any of the top cc models now. He is to become a paper weight at my desk now.

CinciWarBoss wrote:

When power gamers say "every book out there" they mean Tau and Eldar.

Don't bring your positive fun attitude into this! This is an angry mob! Look at this garbage!!! Not a single re-rollable 2++ save in the whole book!! Where is my T8, W6 jumping MC with sky fire, interceptor and 10 str 8 shots a turn?!?! I was promised Tervigons that produce 4d6 gaunts without burning out!! Why, with this book, I can't expect anywhere close to a 90% win rate. /s

How come people are power gamers for wanting to keep Biomancy, DoM & Spores? That is everyone's main issue with the dex, I can take whatever crap they gave me this edition and would have been fine with it, at least I could still use my favourite units however bad they are, but why take out options and models that I personally acquired for my army on GW's encouragement?


In fact, the main people I see as power gamers are the ones who are saying that this dex is a good thing because of all the price drop's they can build a stronger mono-list (quite possible). This is terrible powergaming because we just lost our pods and aggressive deep strike capabilities and have pretty much been shoehorned into a single play style of walking fat MC's across the board. The fact that we weren't given OP tools in a meta where other army's have OP tools is not what most people in here care about (although it wouldn't have been unjustified to give us SOME really good units, this is of no concern to me at all), what people care about is the terrible lack of diversity.

And before you go on to say that I'm an exception, No, I'm not. FYI Power gaming, and maining a Tyranid army isn't exactly synonymous. If you had bothered to read this thread, at all, you would see that basically everyone who has an issue with the codex has made it explicitly clear that it's not the new options they are disappointed with (maybe a bit of a let down with the Crone but people overhyped that for no reason at all). Nope, people's issue is that we have lost so much of the very few strengths of our old codex. These people aren't power gamers, they are nid players from 5E who are used to having an underpowered army, who have just had strategic options taken away and told that it's a "new codex".

For a cc flyrant, would scytals still be good on it with the new scytal rules?

Sorry for this not being a long post about if I love or hate the changes!

I have a question...

Won't genestealers have to take 2 x rounds of fire?

Infiltrate within 12" of a unit (in cover). Roll to move through cover (4-5 inches maybe) you then have an 8-9" charge range?

More if that unit you want to assault moved back in there turn?

@noctem they literally do nothing for a flyrant aside from the 2nd set giving an additional attack.

 gigasnail wrote:
@noctem they literally do nothing for a flyrant aside from the 2nd set giving an additional attack.

Ah ok... I'm new to Tyranids, do the wings count as a set? Are bone sword and lash whips a better buy then?

X2 brain leech devourers are pretty much your go-to load out, nothing in the new codex has made a CC-only flyrant a good idea.

bodazoka wrote:
I have a question...

Won't genestealers have to take 2 x rounds of fire?

Infiltrate within 12" of a unit (in cover). Roll to move through cover (4-5 inches maybe) you then have an 8-9" charge range?

More if that unit you want to assault moved back in there turn?

You're assuming you can infiltrate within 12", Ive seen it done once in this edition and that was because the guy makes tables that look like castle fething greyskull. Plus you cannot charge player turn 1. And average roll is 7".

Likely scenario is you're 18" away get shot up and you will fail to get the charge off.

 gigasnail wrote:
X2 brain leech devourers are pretty much your go-to load out, nothing in the new codex has made a CC-only flyrant a good idea.

What makes cc only flyrant a bad idea? I think I'll still run one sometimes just cause I love how it looks and I want to try a mostly cc Tyranid army. If I play a with a competitive list I guess I would do the 2x devouerers (so ugly...)

Yes, through divination, most books can have it (ignores cover). My sisters have ignores cover. And Eldar and Tau, frequent enemies, have it like candy. I'm sure there are other places, too.

And trying to compare force weapons to insane amounts of easy to come by ignores cover or high strength weapons that can double out venomthropes is poor.

Finally, yea, Heldrakes DID kill large amounts of foot lists as they weren't viable. SW + IG was a tournament winning combo in pre-Heldrake 6E. Screw Heldrakes because they started the broken piece of crap rules trend with that FAQ.

I don't need Nids to be broken. I don't need Tau, Eldar, Daemons, etc. to be broken either. I'd like a game where most units were some form of playable. If you want to take what I say out of context, then be my guest. Underpowered garbage is just as bad as overpowered garbage. It limits armies, play styles, and further makes the game worse. But keep on believing people want every thing terribly OP.

In the end, if the nay sayers are right, optimists gain nothing except egg and we have a bad nids book. If we're wrong, everybody wins because we have a good nids book. But it's safe to say with the level of leaks we have, this is looking like hot street trash.

Noctem wrote:

 gigasnail wrote:
X2 brain leech devourers are pretty much your go-to load out, nothing in the new codex has made a CC-only flyrant a good idea.

What makes cc only flyrant a bad idea? I think I'll still run one sometimes just cause I love how it looks and I want to try a mostly cc Tyranid army. If I play a with a competitive list I guess I would do the 2x devouerers (so ugly...)

No invulnerable save for one...

 TheKbob wrote:
Yes, through divination, most books can have it (ignores cover). My sisters have ignores cover. And Eldar and Tau, frequent enemies, have it like candy. I'm sure there are other places, too.

And trying to compare force weapons to insane amounts of easy to come by ignores cover or high strength weapons that can double out venomthropes is poor.

Finally, yea, Heldrakes DID kill large amounts of foot lists as they weren't viable. SW + IG was a tournament winning combo in pre-Heldrake 6E. Screw Heldrakes because they started the broken piece of crap rules trend with that FAQ.

I don't need Nids to be broken. I don't need Tau, Eldar, Daemons, etc. to be broken either. I'd like a game where most units were some form of playable. If you want to take what I say out of context, then be my guest. Underpowered garbage is just as bad as overpowered garbage. It limits armies, play styles, and further makes the game worse. But keep on believing people want every thing terribly OP.

In the end, if the nay sayers are right, optimists gain nothing except egg and we have a bad nids book. If we're wrong, everybody wins because we have a good nids book. But it's safe to say with the level of leaks we have, this is looking like hot street trash.

Noctem wrote:

 gigasnail wrote:
X2 brain leech devourers are pretty much your go-to load out, nothing in the new codex has made a CC-only flyrant a good idea.

What makes cc only flyrant a bad idea? I think I'll still run one sometimes just cause I love how it looks and I want to try a mostly cc Tyranid army. If I play a with a competitive list I guess I would do the 2x devouerers (so ugly...)

No invulnerable save for one...

Very true... Although I would try to field with a wall of gargoyles!

Well it does look like the gunfex is back. So that is nice for us 4e players. And maybe the gunrant...

Noctem wrote:

 gigasnail wrote:
X2 brain leech devourers are pretty much your go-to load out, nothing in the new codex has made a CC-only flyrant a good idea.

What makes cc only flyrant a bad idea? I think I'll still run one sometimes just cause I love how it looks and I want to try a mostly cc Tyranid army. If I play a with a competitive list I guess I would do the 2x devouerers (so ugly...)

Then you probably want to use a regular walking Hive Tyrant who the rest of the CC army can keep up with, I've used CC flyrants with the 5E dex they could be ok but you were pretty much paying for wings to vektor strike around the map until later on, and it comes with the weakness of being shot out of the sky before you actually can safely glide down and do your damage in assault, which is not hard for alot of armys to do and quite a lot of points to spend for some Vektor Strikes. Better off walking CC Tyrants and advancing with your army and +2 save and Tyrant Guard wounds if you want him to do his job effectively imo. Especially since there is no more biomancy :(

 Ravenous D wrote:


You're assuming you can infiltrate within 12", Ive seen it done once in this edition and that was because the guy makes tables that look like castle fething greyskull. Plus you cannot charge player turn 1. And average roll is 7".

Likely scenario is you're 18" away get shot up and you will fail to get the charge off.

I agree. so

18" away from the enemy
You go first (so you can move)

Move 6" + run (lets say 6") now.. hopefully you have run into cover and are now 6" away from the enemy. So next turn they move 6" away from you (back to 12" away) and fire at you killing what 2-3. You are now say.. 13" away (loosing an inch because of model deaths) you move through cover 6" and now have an 7" charge you have to make?

Things that have to happen:
1. You have to go first which means you wont be able to capture late game objectives
2. You have to roll a 6" run move first turn
3. You have to make it into cover with your run move so you have a hope of a save
4. You have to take a full turn of shooting from the unit you want to kill
5. You need to roll a 6" move through cover role
6. You have to roll an 7" charge (likely 8" as your bound to loose a model going in)

Why are Genestealer's not beasts?

 SHUPPET wrote:

Then you probably want to use a regular walking Hive Tyrant who the rest of the CC army can keep up with, I've used CC flyrants in 5E they could be ok but you were pretty much paying for wings to vektor strike around the map until later on, and it comes with the weakness of being shot out of the sky before you actually can safely glide down and do your damage in assault, which is not hard for alot of armys to do and quite a lot of points to spend for some Vektor Strikes. Better off walking CC Tyrants and advancing with your army and +2 save and Tyrant Guard wounds if you want him to do his job effectively imo. Especially since there is no more biomancy :(

No more +2 save either. Shelrant is dead.

Guard are more expensive, but Crushing Claws are actully pretty good on them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a personal note: I find stealers are much better as board control units. I take big broods and set them out of line of sight. gives a pretty good threat bubble and on turn 3 I take them in to attack units that are tarpitted nearby or to try and grab objectives. I never try to use them as vanguard assaulters, but no IB scoring units are good. They can go to ground too and that makes it hard to dig them out without ignores cover weapons.

And almost no one wants to assault a unit of 10+ stealers with a broodlord. Except things like TH/SS termis.

@ Gloomfang how big a brood? 15 + a BL is 270 points.

Lot's of points for objective holding?

" Read pretty much every book out there right now has it.



Tau have it.

Eldar have it on one common gun, the Serpent Shield.

"Pretty much every"? What about (Sm, CSM, DA, BA, Daemons, DE, Crons, Orks Sisters, Nids) which don't have that much or any ignores cover..."
What, are you nuts? Every flamer in the game ignores cover. CSM take hell turkeys, who cares about venoms? IG take chimera flamer squads against bugs already. Plenty of torrent weapons. Whirlwinds ignore cover, for christ sakes. Demolisher cannon. Necron night scythes.
Geesh...

bodazoka wrote:
@ Gloomfang how big a brood? 15 + a BL is 270 points.

Lot's of points for objective holding?

205pts for 10+broodlord. That is about the price for a good objective holding unit. Cheaper than a tervigon, but easier to get cover. more expensive then a big unit of devgaunts, but not dependant on synapse.

In 6th it is all about troops and objectives. You can kill my warlord and 90% of my army, but if I have two models in tne right place and your not there to contest I win the game 5 out of 6 times.

205 points is allot of points for a unit on an objective!

Feels wrong to have Genestealer's being used to do nothing but score...

FWIW I am going to try testing unit's of stealers as ablative wounds for a BL... see what he can do in combat...

bodazoka wrote:
205 points is allot of points for a unit on an objective!

Feels wrong to have Genestealer's being used to do nothing but score...

FWIW I am going to try testing unit's of stealers as ablative wounds for a BL... see what he can do in combat...

I've been doing this for a while, doing 5 bug squads for each of my 3 broodlords.

It was moderately effective, if the BL got a decent set of rolls on biomancy. An Iron Arm, or Warp SPeed, made the BL terrifying for most anything.

With the new psy list, I don't see it doing much but wasting points. It was already pretty sketchy.

But, by all means try it. I like the BL, and the model. I wish it had a better performance.

Mysticdog wrote:
I've been doing this for a while, doing 5 bug squads for each of my 3 broodlords.

It was moderately effective, if the BL got a decent set of rolls on biomancy. An Iron Arm, or Warp SPeed, made the BL terrifying for most anything.

With the new psy list, I don't see it doing much but wasting points. It was already pretty sketchy.

But, by all means try it. I like the BL, and the model. I wish it had a better performance.

Does the Brood Lord do enough damage to warrant it?

And I get the feeling it would only be useful against certain armies?

One part of me likes that Tyranids didn't get a buff. I play both Tyranid and Dark Eldar, partly because they are looked at as two of the weaker races in 40k and not only do I enjoy the challenge, I also like that the difference in power levels could often be mitigated with tactical list building and even better gameplay choices. But on the other hand the loss of options in the new Dex really hurts everything I once loved as well. It now seems like we have kept our "weak dex" status, hoorah, i love not being Tau, but a lot of the on-the-fly strategical choices that we had last dex are gone. I remember making the decision on a game per game basis of whether to keep Warp Blast/Lance on my Zoanthropes, or, for example, whether to roll for Biomancy powers against the green tide, or whether to go for a Telepathy power to swap for Psychic Shriek and drop right next to a Tau Gunline. And this was dependant on their list as well as their army of choice. What about putting Dakkafex's where they could blast at an infantry unit and still assault a tank next turn without having put them in a spot where they get turned to chum. Or weighing up whether or not it's worth suiciding a pod of Devilgants behind enemy lines to bring down the Devastator squad, or playing them more conservatively by dropping them back a bit further in range of Tervigon buffs to help steam roll over a Terminator gang looking for trouble. And deciding on the most strategical placement of DoM, while my opponent has also tweaked his army positioning, knowing that he is coming down looking to feed.

To me these units and choices added extra elements to the game. If they weren't balanced in GW's eyes than by all means up the points or something, but it really feels like they were just too lazy to release a line of models for the units and removed them from the codex, I've seen and heard nothing to indicate otherwise. And now it seems like we are limited to lumbering across the board with Exocrines and TFex's and whatnot, while the opponent tries to bring us down with weight of fire before we reach them. Which is to be seen whether or not it's much of a challenging for some armies to do considering we are the slowest army in the game, or whether it will be challenging to stop with all our MC price drops, or whether it strikes a nice balance somewhere in the middle, but at the end of the day, is boring as hell if its our only option (IMO). While I'm not abandoning Nids and will finish up the models I need to play a bugzilla list of some sort, I think I'm probably going to focus on DE from now on, who while underpowered can really bridge the gap to some of the stronger dex's with a bit of smart thinking, something I feel Nid's no longer have.

Does anyone have the profile for the tervigon in english? i dont want to have to go through the entire thread to find it again.

/edit i mean with the bit about making it a troops choice.

Wait, so are scytals worthless on a Tervigon now? Crushing claws only viable option?

The next person who insults or flames another user will have their account suspended.

sLeEpYrOcK wrote:
Does anyone have the profile for the tervigon in english? i dont want to have to go through the entire thread to find it again.

/edit i mean with the bit about making it a troops choice.

You need a unit of 30 Termagants to make a Tervigon a Troops choice.

Indeed.

They've also lost the ability to bestow their upgrades to termagaunts they spawn, and have had their brood primogenitor backlash doubled., for the record.

Noctem wrote:
Wait, so are scytals worthless on a Tervigon now? Crushing claws only viable option?

Scytals are free now. Crushing claws are pretty good (make tervi S7 armourbane) but they are 15 points. IMO you are better off spending those points on regeneration or even adrenal glands so that the tervigon has fleet, and thus has a better chance of reaching where you need it to go.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

Noctem wrote:
Wait, so are scytals worthless on a Tervigon now? Crushing claws only viable option?

Scytals are free now. Crushing claws are pretty good (make tervi S7 armourbane) but they are 15 points. IMO you are better off spending those points on regeneration or even adrenal glands so that the tervigon has fleet, and thus has a better chance of reaching where you need it to go.

Ah ok, that makes sense. But Scytals being free for Tervigon now but no longer giving an extra attack mean they are basically just a visual things now and only Crushing Claws "adds" anything to the Tervigon?

The GW near me is doing a midnight release in about 4 hours. Tempted to go grab it, bit too tired to be bothered though, lol, I'll just grab it when next week when a discounted shop has it in.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

Noctem wrote:
Wait, so are scytals worthless on a Tervigon now? Crushing claws only viable option?

Scytals are free now. Crushing claws are pretty good (make tervi S7 armourbane) but they are 15 points. IMO you are better off spending those points on regeneration or even adrenal glands so that the tervigon has fleet, and thus has a better chance of reaching where you need it to go.

Tervigons are S5 so I believe claws would make them S6 not S7.

Disturb3d wrote:I'm looking forward to attatching OOE to a unit of dakkafexes with regen. The Carnistar.... Yeah.

I'm getting it tomorrow afternoon.

the volatile rule is funny as well, every unit sufffers a hits equal to the amount of models within 6", evry unit, which means, board wide, XD i find that really funny

Feeling underwhelmed ...

# Flyrant with devourers is still a main stay. There are actually HQ choices without synapse though? WTF
# Multi-wound T4 creatures are still a massive problem across the board - generally no better than 4+ armour means instakills S8 and S6 will often have AP4 min so auto wound on 2s still
# Genestealers are still never going to be the CC shock unit they should be - rear objective holders and hiding in bastions seems to be the only suggestions for them so far
# Hormogaunts still die in drives and their upgrades are too expensive - T3, Armour 6 puts them worse than guardsmen
# Tervigon gone up in price but still ok, but a 30 gaunt tax means I'm only taking one now
# Mycetic spore goes and no auto take of warp lance for zoanthropes puts them back in the cupboard as well
# At least there's still hive guard ... didn't they go up in price for worse stats though?
# Oh well, pack my army with biovores and carnfixes - the two main gains - only they both sit in Heavy Support
# There's always T5 flyers with bad armour saves though - only there won't be for very long - quadgun auto wounds on 2s ...
# I can always hide in cover, use venomthropes though - apart from divination users, Eldar, Tau and Thunderfire cannons, flamers etc - pretty much everyone bar Necron and Orks

There will be a few lists I can envision but I'm far from excited by this release based on what I've read so far.

 ruminator wrote:



# Mycetic spore goes and no auto take of warp lance for zoanthropes puts them back in the cupboard as well

For what it's worth zoanthropes do still have the warp lance. Both of its old shooting profiles are now under the warp blast power, so zoanthropes'll get both their lance and blast + a random other power.

So, half old good units got nerfed or deleted;
none of the units that needed fixing to function got fixed (exept fexes, perhaps);
new units are either too fragile (crone) or worse than ones we had (haruspex);
we lost biomancy that our survival depended upon;

Just give me our last codex (5ed) back!

NamelessBard wrote:

CinciWarBoss wrote:
Havent seen these pictures on Dakka yet. Someone posted this on /r/warhammer40k a few hours ago. http://imgur.com/a/8w57g

Nice rules on Volatile! Haha

For those that haven't seen it:

Every unit on the board takes a number of S3 hits equal to the models within 1d6".

The RAI is clearly that every unit takes a number of S3 hits equal to the models in that unit within 1d6".

Reading over the Instinctive Behavior charts, it's really not that bad.

Lurkers fall back. This is how it is now and is fine.

Hunters go to ground, which is also fine. It's like falling back.

Feeders only consume themselves unless they are a single-model unit. This won't affect Haruspexes, Trygons, single-Carnifexes, and other valuable units. This is a drawback to justify the lowering in costs of Hormagaunts, which is reasonable for a sacrificial unit anyways. Plus, this is a drawback that affects multi-model units of Carnifexes, but they too got a points reduction. This only matters for Raveners, but those have always been feces.

The consume-self outrage on Feed IB was blown out of proportion.

 AlexHolker wrote:

NamelessBard wrote:

CinciWarBoss wrote:
Havent seen these pictures on Dakka yet. Someone posted this on /r/warhammer40k a few hours ago. http://imgur.com/a/8w57g

Nice rules on Volatile! Haha

For those that haven't seen it:

Every unit on the board takes a number of S3 hits equal to the models within 1d6".

The RAI is clearly that every unit takes a number of S3 hits equal to the models in that unit within 1d6".

It's not just RAI. It's RAW.

The sentence is awkwardly structured, but the rules state that every unit takes S3 hits equal to the number of models within 1d6". If a unit has zero models within 1d6", then it takes zero S3 hits. Anyone arguing otherwise is a troll, on 4chan, or both.

 SHUPPET wrote:

CinciWarBoss wrote:

When power gamers say "every book out there" they mean Tau and Eldar.

Don't bring your positive fun attitude into this! This is an angry mob! Look at this garbage!!! Not a single re-rollable 2++ save in the whole book!! Where is my T8, W6 jumping MC with sky fire, interceptor and 10 str 8 shots a turn?!?! I was promised Tervigons that produce 4d6 gaunts without burning out!! Why, with this book, I can't expect anywhere close to a 90% win rate. /s

How come people are power gamers for wanting to keep Biomancy, DoM & Spores? That is everyone's main issue with the dex, I can take whatever crap they gave me this edition and would have been fine with it, at least I could still use my favourite units however bad they are, but why take out options and models that I personally acquired for my army on GW's encouragement?


In fact, the main people I see as power gamers are the ones who are saying that this dex is a good thing because of all the price drop's they can build a stronger mono-list (quite possible). This is terrible powergaming because we just lost our pods and aggressive deep strike capabilities and have pretty much been shoehorned into a single play style of walking fat MC's across the board. The fact that we weren't given OP tools in a meta where other army's have OP tools is not what most people in here care about (although it wouldn't have been unjustified to give us SOME really good units, this is of no concern to me at all), what people care about is the terrible lack of diversity.

And before you go on to say that I'm an exception, No, I'm not. FYI Power gaming, and maining a Tyranid army isn't exactly synonymous. If you had bothered to read this thread, at all, you would see that basically everyone who has an issue with the codex has made it explicitly clear that it's not the new options they are disappointed with (maybe a bit of a let down with the Crone but people overhyped that for no reason at all). Nope, people's issue is that we have lost so much of the very few strengths of our old codex. These people aren't power gamers, they are nid players from 5E who are used to having an underpowered army, who have just had strategic options taken away and told that it's a "new codex".

This.

IB hunt is terrible. Going to ground means 2 turns of sitting around doing nothing. The turn you g2g and the turn you get up.

IB is all bad and fearless in synapse just doesn't make up for it.

ruminator wrote:
# Oh well, pack my army with biovores and carnfixes - the two main gains - only they both sit in Heavy Support
.

3 Biovores and 6 Carnifexs, or 6 Biovores and 3 Carnifexes ain't so bad


I never saved the stats/ pics for Haruspex and Tervigon. But IIRC they seem on fairly level playing field?
That's just something crossing my mind now.

I think i may be running 12 Spore Mines for fun. As they are individual units each, they will cause some attention.


Being a newb still, i'm glad people are being forced out of the linear lists, it helps me formulate new tactics with models i previously didn't know how to use properly because people are NOW talking about them. Before everyone would push them aside and talk Tervigons. While funnily enough i end up winning when i have a Tervigon on the table, i like variety. Stupidly i never thought of using Genestealers as strategic "stay away from this area" and just staying out of LOS. Though their rending has had me kill a drednought before.


Can someone spell out what's up with Zoanies?
Get Lance/ Blast for free, +1 additional random power?
What's this Assault 3 thing? I don't want to Assault with them, so is that each (woah!)??
The Brotherhood of Psychers rule says they will be ML1, and Warp Blast/ Lance is Warp Charge 2?
-10pts each?
I'm all confused as to how they got buffed.

Feeders only consume themselves unless they are a single-model unit. This won't affect Haruspexes, Trygons, single-Carnifexes, and other valuable units. This is a drawback to justify the lowering in costs of Hormagaunts, which is reasonable for a sacrificial unit anyways. Plus, this is a drawback that affects multi-model units of Carnifexes, but they too got a points reduction. This only matters for Raveners, but those have always been feces.

You say carnifexes and hormagaunts got a point reduction so thats ok, as if they were good before and needed something bad to balance a point reduction.

The truth is they were bad before and needed a buff and/or points reduction to make them good, not a point reduction and a nerf to make them worse to balance them out! Admitedly carnifex got a minor nerf some buffs and a point reduction so are now decent, maybe even good, but not hormagaunts, and sadly most of the things that got reductions (and even a cple that got a points INCREASE) were only passable to bad before and got NERFS as well.

 eskimo wrote:



Can someone spell out what's up with Zoanies?
Get Lance/ Blast for free, +1 additional random power?
What's this Assault 3 thing? I don't want to Assault with them, so is that each (woah!)??
The Brotherhood of Psychers rule says they will be ML1, and Warp Blast/ Lance is Warp Charge 2?
-10pts each?
I'm all confused as to how they got buffed.

Zoanthropes are a bit odd now. They have a special rule which makes their Brotherhood Mastery 2 instead of 1. This means that you get Warp Blast and may roll for one extra power regardless of how many models are in the unit. You'll never be able to cast more than one power from the unit per turn either, as Warp Blast is charge 2.
There is another special rule which makes Warp Blast fire a number of times equal to the number of models in the brood, so it can become Assault 2 or Assault 3.

 eskimo wrote:

3 Biovores and 6 Carnifexs, or 6 Biovores and 3 Carnifexes ain't so bad

I never saved the stats/ pics for Haruspex and Tervigon. But IIRC they seem on fairly level playing field?
That's just something crossing my mind now.

I think i may be running 12 Spore Mines for fun. As they are individual units each, they will cause some attention.


Being a newb still, i'm glad people are being forced out of the linear lists, it helps me formulate new tactics with models i previously didn't know how to use properly because people are NOW talking about them. Before everyone would push them aside and talk Tervigons. While funnily enough i end up winning when i have a Tervigon on the table, i like variety. Stupidly i never thought of using Genestealers as strategic "stay away from this area" and just staying out of LOS. Though their rending has had me kill a drednought before.

Tervigons and Genestealers are basically trash. Genestealers are overcosted by about 50% and have no additional protection. Their upgrades are also way overpriced for what they add.

Tervigons are now a liability to any army built around Termagants, thanks to the backlash range being doubled. They're also heavily dependent on which random power they roll as to how useful they are.

Fexes and Biovores look really promising, especially in conjunction with the new spore mine rules. The Haruspex may well be decent, but will compete with Venomthropes, Zoanthropes and maybe Lictors for a spot.

I have a theory which would explain awfulness of this codex: the rumours of 7th edition are true, and GW plans to Please don't bypass the language filter like this. Reds8n the assault, and this codex is balanced that in mind.

The spelling of Regeneration is now: Regains a wound on a 4+ each turns end. Thats pretty good you can roll in the end of your turn and in the end of your opponents turn.

AdagiO wrote:
The spelling of Regeneration is now: Regains a wound on a 4+ each turns end. Thats pretty good you can roll in the end of your turn and in the end of your opponents turn.

I thought it was friendly turn - and can Hor get Regen also?

zacharia wrote:

Feeders only consume themselves unless they are a single-model unit. This won't affect Haruspexes, Trygons, single-Carnifexes, and other valuable units. This is a drawback to justify the lowering in costs of Hormagaunts, which is reasonable for a sacrificial unit anyways. Plus, this is a drawback that affects multi-model units of Carnifexes, but they too got a points reduction. This only matters for Raveners, but those have always been feces.

You say carnifexes and hormagaunts got a point reduction so thats ok, as if they were good before and needed something bad to balance a point reduction.

The truth is they were bad before and needed a buff and/or points reduction to make them good, not a point reduction and a nerf to make them worse to balance them out! Admitedly carnifex got a minor nerf some buffs and a point reduction so are now decent, maybe even good, but not hormagaunts, and sadly most of the things that got reductions (and even a cple that got a points INCREASE) were only passable to bad before and got NERFS as well.

A cost reduction doesn't really make bad units good. Pyrovores could be free, and they would still be bad. Carnifex were good in the last codex but overcosted. Hormagaunts were bad in the last codex and will still be bad.

Didn't GW also go on and on in interviews about how they really had to wow us with the new Tyranid codex after the last one? Well, I guess we've been wowed, but probably not like they were expecting. The codex just doesn't mix well with the current rules. The codex has rules that make you want to group up and push forward. The rulebook has rules that make you want to spread out and take objectives. The codex has rules to put high importance on certain models. The rulebook has rules that make high importance models require hiding. These important models in the Tyranid codex *can't* hide.

 Nem wrote:

AdagiO wrote:
The spelling of Regeneration is now: Regains a wound on a 4+ each turns end. Thats pretty good you can roll in the end of your turn and in the end of your opponents turn.

I thought it was friendly turn - and can Hor get Regen also?

Hor?
This link has the scanned page of Biomorph upgrades.
http://imgur.com/a/8w57g

Its now end of each turn.

*sigh*

Is Old One Eye able to join Carnifex Squads at all?

I'd love to have him and 3 Carnifexes stomping around the field with one of them having Adrenal Glands to give the Unit Fleet.

AdagiO wrote:

 Nem wrote:

AdagiO wrote:
The spelling of Regeneration is now: Regains a wound on a 4+ each turns end. Thats pretty good you can roll in the end of your turn and in the end of your opponents turn.

I thought it was friendly turn - and can Hor get Regen also?

Hor?
This link has the scanned page of Biomorph upgrades.
http://imgur.com/a/8w57g

Its now end of each turn.

Thanks, yeah I mean Har, keep on calling it Horuspex.