Not shocked, genestealers have saturated the market since 2nd edition like Berserkers have for chaos, there is no market for making them playable sadly.
Yeah, sucks. I honestly thought hormagaunts were due to be broken this edition.
Or the whole 'GW only makes things powerful to sell more of them' thing is just a tin-foil hat type thing.
I forgot how bad the latest kits have all been.... oh wait.
At this point I assume they own stock in tinfoil too
Woke up this morning to all this amazing info! Still keeping my fingers crossed for Genestealers and Warriors getting some boost. Both have been rumored to stay the same?
I am hoping that Adrenal Glands grant Furious Charge but also Assault Grenade bonus. That change alone would buff Genestealers quite a bit. Adrenal Glands getting better are likely in my mind, given that they cost +2pts for Termagants now.
rollawaythestone wrote: I am hoping that Adrenal Glands grant Furious Charge but also Assault Grenade bonus.
pretre wrote: What about adrenal glands says assault grenade bonus to you?
My wishful thinking! They used to give a bonus to Initiative, so I could see that bonus reflecting no drop in initiative when assaulting through terrain.
I'm just hoping that they address some of the core problems with the current book rather than just making everything cheaper and adding some new "MC +1" models and calling it good.
Not shocked, genestealers have saturated the market since 2nd edition like Berserkers have for chaos, there is no market for making them playable sadly.
Yeah, sucks. I honestly thought hormagaunts were due to be broken this edition.
Or the whole 'GW only makes things powerful to sell more of them' thing is just a tin-foil hat type thing.
I think you're right here P - GW doesn't do nearly enough playtesting of any new codex to figure out what is truly overpowered. It takes a little time after the new rules drop and the legions of 40k players start trying out various combinations for the truly broken units/combos to emerge. With any system that has as many internal variables (within the rules - so variables that GW can theoretically control) and so many external variables (chance/dice, the idiosyncrasies of various players, terrain, etc. that GW can not possibly control) there's no realistic way to absolutely prevent something or another being broken.
The only way to deal with it would be doing tons and tons of playtesting, and once the broken units emerge from the aggregate data, then you can try to revise them. Of course that puts you back at square one - you then need to playtest the heck out of those revisions. So GW's relatively minimal playtesting might be seen as an entirely reasonable policy acknowledging the futility of preventing any broken units/combos.
Not shocked, genestealers have saturated the market since 2nd edition like Berserkers have for chaos, there is no market for making them playable sadly.
Yeah, sucks. I honestly thought hormagaunts were due to be broken this edition.
Or the whole 'GW only makes things powerful to sell more of them' thing is just a tin-foil hat type thing.
I think you're right here P - GW doesn't do nearly enough playtesting of any new codex to figure out what is truly overpowered. It takes a little time after the new rules drop and the legions of 40k players start trying out various combinations for the truly broken units/combos to emerge. With any system that has as many internal variables (within the rules - so variables that GW can theoretically control) and so many external variables (chance/dice, the idiosyncrasies of various players, terrain, etc. that GW can not possibly control) there's no realistic way to absolutely prevent something or another being broken.
The only way to deal with it would be doing tons and tons of playtesting, and once the broken units emerge from the aggregate data, then you can try to revise them. Of course that puts you back at square one - you then need to playtest the heck out of those revisions. So GW's relatively minimal playtesting might be seen as an entirely reasonable policy acknowledging the futility of preventing any broken units/combos.
-C6
This would be a perfectly reasonable argument if it weren't for smaller companies with games of similar levels of complexity and access to lower levels of resources doing a perfectly adequate job of not breaking their own games.
Not shocked, genestealers have saturated the market since 2nd edition like Berserkers have for chaos, there is no market for making them playable sadly.
Yeah, sucks. I honestly thought hormagaunts were due to be broken this edition.
Or the whole 'GW only makes things powerful to sell more of them' thing is just a tin-foil hat type thing.
I think you're right here P - GW doesn't do nearly enough playtesting of any new codex to figure out what is truly overpowered. It takes a little time after the new rules drop and the legions of 40k players start trying out various combinations for the truly broken units/combos to emerge. With any system that has as many internal variables (within the rules - so variables that GW can theoretically control) and so many external variables (chance/dice, the idiosyncrasies of various players, terrain, etc. that GW can not possibly control) there's no realistic way to absolutely prevent something or another being broken.
The only way to deal with it would be doing tons and tons of playtesting, and once the broken units emerge from the aggregate data, then you can try to revise them. Of course that puts you back at square one - you then need to playtest the heck out of those revisions. So GW's relatively minimal playtesting might be seen as an entirely reasonable policy acknowledging the futility of preventing any broken units/combos.
-C6
Or as Ol' Hanlon liked to say: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
That is a pretty convoluted defense of GW's lack of playtesting, catharsix!
And while I agree with pretre that most such things can be attributed to stupidity, even with regards to GW, it's undeniable that flyers were the new hoteness when 6th edition hit (and also new releases for many armies) whereas rhinos and the like were pretty useless, the opposite of 5th edition.
The same happens with fantasy where hand weapon and shield is awesome one edition, and spears the next.
This is something most companies do so it's not unique to GW, but it's not pure coincidence either!
catharsix wrote: I think you're right here P - GW doesn't do nearly enough playtesting of any new codex to figure out what is truly overpowered. It takes a little time after the new rules drop and the legions of 40k players start trying out various combinations for the truly broken units/combos to emerge. With any system that has as many internal variables (within the rules - so variables that GW can theoretically control) and so many external variables (chance/dice, the idiosyncrasies of various players, terrain, etc. that GW can not possibly control) there's no realistic way to absolutely prevent something or another being broken.
The only way to deal with it would be doing tons and tons of playtesting, and once the broken units emerge from the aggregate data, then you can try to revise them. Of course that puts you back at square one - you then need to playtest the heck out of those revisions. So GW's relatively minimal playtesting might be seen as an entirely reasonable policy acknowledging the futility of preventing any broken units/combos.
Absolutely prevent? No. No one is saying that can or should happen.
Have better balance? Absolutely. And it's not some pipe dream - a company with GWs revenue stream should have playtesters on staff - they don't just play normal games, they test individual model shooting phases over and over against a set target, etc. There are probably over a hundred people who would volunteer to do it in their free time - I know I would and I know others that would as well.
These pictures have already got gears turning in my head for what I want my army to change... Two tyrannofexes supported by an exocrine, hordes of hormagaunts, hordes of gargoyles supported by crones, led by a flyrant and a trygon prime, maybe more warriors... So much to digest already and the book isn't even out yet. I really hope Venom Cannons are worth taking now, and not just a fluffy choice.
Sinful Hero wrote: These pictures have already got gears turning in my head for what I want my army to change... Two tyrannofexes supported by an exocrine, hordes of hormagaunts, hordes of gargoyles supported by crones, led by a flyrant and a trygon prime, maybe more warriors... So much to digest already and the book isn't wen ou yet. I really hope Venom Cannons are worth taking now, and not just a fluffy choice.
Whatever happens, the doom-mongers will monger their doom, but this is one of the most exciting, diverse releases in years. Good to see GW's recruitment of more design staff, and new production machinery, gives us the opportunity to rework our army, using our existing troops in a new context. (Now, I just hope Orks get something similar in the spring).
Sinful Hero wrote: These pictures have already got gears turning in my head for what I want my army to change... Two tyrannofexes supported by an exocrine, hordes of hormagaunts, hordes of gargoyles supported by crones, led by a flyrant and a trygon prime, maybe more warriors... So much to digest already and the book isn't wen ou yet. I really hope Venom Cannons are worth taking now, and not just a fluffy choice.
Whatever happens, the doom-mongers will monger their doom, but this is one of the most exciting, diverse releases in years. Good to see GW's recruitment of more design staff, and new production machinery, gives us the opportunity to rework our army, using our existing troops in a new context. (Now, I just hope Orks get something similar in the spring).
Stating your opinion as fact doesn't make it less your opinion.
While I think they're perfectly nice models, and as I have a number of Nid players locally this is about as relevant an update as it gets without it being one of my own factions, for people to be concerned that either the army will be underpowered or broken in its new incarnation, given GW's track record in that area, is far from doom-mongering and more under "justifiable anxiety" at this point.
A couple of dual kits and a few re-dos is no more "exciting or diverse" than anything else GW has done in some time, but you keep on knighting your white and trying to dismiss other's concerns as irrelevant just because they don't bother you.
Why does every new head have its tongue sticking out? It just looks ridiculous in my eyes. The concepts are all great and definitely an improvement though.
I have to agree that I'm not seeing a lot of diversity or surprises here. Seems like a solid release but nothing unexpected... one heavy, one flyer, warriors, and hive guard, all dual kits.
It looks solid to me but GW really is consistent in their release patterns at the moment, for both 40k and fantasy... and it can be a little stale. But it's hard to mess up nids, I'm super excited regardless
PastelAvenger wrote: Why does every new head have its tongue sticking out? It just looks ridiculous in my eyes. The concepts are all great and definitely an improvement though.
Good point I didn't notice. Maybe it's some type of new trend?
GW has always been about analogues between armies. Look at the original Eldar and Space Marines. You'd think they're very different, but pretty much every unit has an analogue on the other army. Chaos works the same way considering they're just spiky marines with different wargear. With their second "Tau Empire" codex, they got in line with the same archetypes, and recently Necrons too.
In the past, GW was homogenizing armies by giving strict transports to Necrons, Warp Spiders to Grey Knights, GravTanks to IG, allies to everyone, etc. It has only become blatantly obvious with the MC + flier + updatedinfantry releases that they're simply updating every army now in parallel.
PastelAvenger wrote: Why does every new head have its tongue sticking out? It just looks ridiculous in my eyes. The concepts are all great and definitely an improvement though.
It's most likely for the WYSIWYG effect. If there's a specific head tied to how a specific upgrade should look it makes things readily identifiable.
I haven't seen this suggested yet, but why are people discounting the possibility of there still being a transport bug?
The leaked picture seems to show that the Haruspex has a giant gaping maw and a cavernous gullet. Could this not be a portal for disgorging a brood of gants?
It's not as unreasonable as you might think though. If the tongue with the exploding grappling hook looking bit is indeed able to "hook on" to tanks and the like, I do not find it incredibly unreasonable to ask that people actually model it with that head on there.
Especially considering how easy to magnetize GW's kits are becoming. I can swap between Doomfire Warlocks and Dark Riders in under a minute without them looking too out of place or ridiculous.
Kan, I meant the fact that you responded to someone saying "why is everything's tongue sticking out" (likely referring to the Prime, Warriors, and some of the Tyrant / Hive Guard) with "It's for WYSIWYG" . Clearly, the flyer has some sort of gun in it's mouth, so that makes sense.
The smaller models, though, just seem to all be pulling a Michael Jordan... it's even on the cover of the codex
EDIT: To be fair, Nids have always had a thing for the Venom tongue. It is often for WYSIWYG (many things, from Genestealers to Carnifexes, have mouth-mounted biomorphs), but also because it's just a common theme with them and has been for a good while.
I don't really like the flyer's head. I'll probably stick a Trygon head on it when I get it.
Maelstrom808 wrote:I'm just hoping that they address some of the core problems with the current book rather than just making everything cheaper and adding some new "MC +1" models and calling it good.
Which does fix a lot of the problems with the book, ironically.
Not shocked, genestealers have saturated the market since 2nd edition like Berserkers have for chaos, there is no market for making them playable sadly.
Yeah, sucks. I honestly thought hormagaunts were due to be broken this edition.
Or the whole 'GW only makes things powerful to sell more of them' thing is just a tin-foil hat type thing.
I think you're right here P - GW doesn't do nearly enough playtesting of any new codex to figure out what is truly overpowered. It takes a little time after the new rules drop and the legions of 40k players start trying out various combinations for the truly broken units/combos to emerge. With any system that has as many internal variables (within the rules - so variables that GW can theoretically control) and so many external variables (chance/dice, the idiosyncrasies of various players, terrain, etc. that GW can not possibly control) there's no realistic way to absolutely prevent something or another being broken.
The only way to deal with it would be doing tons and tons of playtesting, and once the broken units emerge from the aggregate data, then you can try to revise them. Of course that puts you back at square one - you then need to playtest the heck out of those revisions. So GW's relatively minimal playtesting might be seen as an entirely reasonable policy acknowledging the futility of preventing any broken units/combos.
Not shocked, genestealers have saturated the market since 2nd edition like Berserkers have for chaos, there is no market for making them playable sadly.
Yeah, sucks. I honestly thought hormagaunts were due to be broken this edition.
Or the whole 'GW only makes things powerful to sell more of them' thing is just a tin-foil hat type thing.
I think you're right here P - GW doesn't do nearly enough playtesting of any new codex to figure out what is truly overpowered. It takes a little time after the new rules drop and the legions of 40k players start trying out various combinations for the truly broken units/combos to emerge. With any system that has as many internal variables (within the rules - so variables that GW can theoretically control) and so many external variables (chance/dice, the idiosyncrasies of various players, terrain, etc. that GW can not possibly control) there's no realistic way to absolutely prevent something or another being broken.
The only way to deal with it would be doing tons and tons of playtesting, and once the broken units emerge from the aggregate data, then you can try to revise them. Of course that puts you back at square one - you then need to playtest the heck out of those revisions. So GW's relatively minimal playtesting might be seen as an entirely reasonable policy acknowledging the futility of preventing any broken units/combos.
-C6
This would be a perfectly reasonable argument if it weren't for smaller companies with games of similar levels of complexity and access to lower levels of resources doing a perfectly adequate job of not breaking their own games.
No, those games just have way fewer "layers" of combat, for one. GW has firing, assault, flyers, fortifications, vehicles/transports, more than 4 different movement types, and now a bunch of Supplements and Formations.
There are also way fewer players in those games, which means it's less likely the broken combos are discovered. I can promise you GW puts more time and resources into play-testing than most companies (as they have the ability to do that), but with such a large field of players, something will eventually be found that can be abused. There's also a much larger variety of units to choose from in 40k than in most games, which again, lends itself to odd combos.
Having played many of those other games, I can tell you they are far less enjoyable, and much more predictable. Not good qualities.
If every army played the exact same way (like in FoW or WM/H)? Sure, less imbalance. But so long as every army gets a little something broken, it's not a big deal anyway. One army isn't getting all the brokenness that beats the pants out of everyone else and ignores what opponents are doing, like in editions prior (GK in 5th, Eldar Flying Circus in 4th, etc).
Maelstrom808 wrote:I'm just hoping that they address some of the core problems with the current book rather than just making everything cheaper and adding some new "MC +1" models and calling it good.
Considering many of the "core problems" with Tyranids lie in the 6e rulebook itself... But for problems with the Codex itself? Most likely. Fixing things like Broodlord psychic powers/BS0 should be easy. Emphasis on "should".
Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:Whatever happens, the doom-mongers will monger their doom, but this is one of the most exciting, diverse releases in years. Good to see GW's recruitment of more design staff, and new production machinery, gives us the opportunity to rework our army, using our existing troops in a new context. (Now, I just hope Orks get something similar in the spring).
I have always maintained that every company plants employees in various forums to talk up their product. This post is a literal example of why I think that.
Elites is the only hole, and we don't really know where Exocrines and Haruspexes will end up, nor if elite Carnifexes will again become possible. And although HG aren't MCs, they can play the T6 spam game (assuming their statline remains the same).
Which is all cool, although I hope that the book also makes/keeps reserve-heavy and fast gribbly swarms viable too.
Boskonovitch wrote: I haven't seen this suggested yet, but why are people discounting the possibility of there still being a transport bug?
The leaked picture seems to show that the Haruspex has a giant gaping maw and a cavernous gullet. Could this not be a portal for disgorging a brood of gants?
Maybe he's so fat so that he can be a transport.
Because the WD description of it focuses entirely on the fact that it's there to maul whatever the other nids cannot for proper digestion. That's what the huge mouth is about. If it could transport something they would have mentioned it there or in the batrep.
brassangel wrote: No, those games just have way fewer "layers" of combat, for one. GW has firing, assault, flyers, fortifications, vehicles/transports, more than 4 different movement types, and now a bunch of Supplements and Formations.
And there's still no excuse to not playtest them.
There are also way fewer players in those games, which means it's less likely the broken combos are discovered. I can promise you GW puts more time and resources into play-testing than most companies (as they have the ability to do that), but with such a large field of players, something will eventually be found that can be abused. There's also a much larger variety of units to choose from in 40k than in most games, which again, lends itself to odd combos.
Um. You do understand that playtesting is more than just sitting down and playing a couple games with armies that "seem good" and see how everything does, right? Because that's how GW "playtests".
Having played many of those other games, I can tell you they are far less enjoyable, and much more predictable. Not good qualities.
If every army played the exact same way (like in FoW or WM/H)? Sure, less imbalance. But so long as every army gets a little something broken, it's not a big deal anyway. One army isn't getting all the brokenness that beats the pants out of everyone else and ignores what opponents are doing, like in editions prior (GK in 5th, Eldar Flying Circus in 4th, etc).
I'm sure you didn't just say that. I'm absolutely sure you aren't completely ignoring the 2++ rerollables that exist, the Taudar builds that exist, the taudar builds that keep getting more to help them out...
And no one is advocating for every army playing the exact same way. That can be balanced, but it is not the only way for balance to exist.
A question: what is that weapon the warrior on right is holding? It doesn't look like a Deathspitter to me, especially if you compare it with the obvious Deathspitter the Prime is hodling.
brassangel wrote: No, those games just have way fewer "layers" of combat, for one. GW has firing, assault, flyers, fortifications, vehicles/transports, more than 4 different movement types, and now a bunch of Supplements and Formations.
Please don't confuse "complicated" with "complex". They are two very different things.
It looks like they've changed the design of the Barbed strangler.
This is the stranglethorn cannon of the Carnifex
So either they've changed the design of the Barbed strangler to match the stranglethorn cannon or the rules for the weapons has changed and the Tyranid Warriors will now be able to take Venom Cannons, Barbed strangler and Stranglethorn.
ergotoxin wrote:A question: what is that weapon the warrior on right is holding? It doesn't look like a Deathspitter to me, especially if you compare it with the obvious Deathspitter the Prime is hodling.
(sorry if this was discussed already)
Barbed Strangler
streamdragon wrote:It's just at a different angle I think, but yeah, Deathspitter.
What's more impressive, to me, is that the brood is using a mix of ranged and CC weapons, which was previously not allowed I believe.
No, it's a Barbed Strangler. And you have always been able to mix CC and ranged weapons - you just haven't been able to have warriors with different wargear in a brood (excepting the heavy weapon warrior).
If one model had Rending Claws, they all had to.
ergotoxin wrote: A question: what is that weapon the warrior on right is holding? It doesn't look like a Deathspitter to me, especially if you compare it with the obvious Deathspitter the Prime is hodling.
(sorry if this was discussed already)
Not a Deathspitter or a Barbed Strangler. It's a Stranglethorn Cannon. Interesting because Warriors never had access to the Stranglethorn before, only the MC's got the Stranglethorn - they had the Barbed Strangler.
No, it's a Barbed Strangler. And you have always been able to mix CC and ranged weapons - you just haven't been able to have warriors with different wargear in a brood (excepting the heavy weapon warrior).
If one model had Rending Claws, they all had to.
Guess I wasn't clear. The brood in the picture has two models with RC/ST, while the others are rocking ST/guns.
I guess if they're showcasing the two "heavy" ranged weapons though, that it is unlikely to be a single brood. (or broods can now have 2 heavy weapons, either way).
Not a Deathspitter or a Barbed Strangler. It's a Stranglethorn Cannon. Interesting because Warriors never had access to the Stranglethorn before, only the MC's got the Stranglethorn - they had the Barbed Strangler.
Prior to last edition, there was no Stranglethorn Cannon. You had the Barbed Strangler available to both Warriors and Carnifexes/Tyrants. Only last edition felt the need to differentiate between MC heavy weapons and warrior heavy weapons.
Y'know, it's also interesting to note that the Venom Cannon actually looks like a Heavy Venom Cannon. Very cool if the Warriors got access to the MC level heavy weapons.
ergotoxin wrote: A question: what is that weapon the warrior on right is holding? It doesn't look like a Deathspitter to me, especially if you compare it with the obvious Deathspitter the Prime is hodling.
(sorry if this was discussed already)
Not a Deathspitter or a Barbed Strangler. It's a Stranglethorn Cannon. Interesting because Warriors never had access to the Stranglethorn before, only the MC's got the Stranglethorn - they had the Barbed Strangler.
Wow, you are right! That venom cannon looks more like a Heavy Venom Cannon as well, by the way.
Either that or they dropped the Warrior level upgrades, and consolidated the Barbed Strangler into the Stranglethron, and combined the two Venom Cannons. Might make sense that this happened, given they re-did the Warrior kit, and the Warrior's were the only ones that got the little Venom Cannon and the Barbed Strangler.
rollawaythestone wrote:Y'know, it's also interesting to note that the Venom Cannon actually looks like a Heavy Venom Cannon. Very cool if the Warriors got access to the MC level heavy weapons.
ergotoxin wrote:Wow, you are right! That venom cannon looks more like a Heavy Venom Cannon as well, by the way.
rollawaythestone wrote:Either that or they dropped the Warrior level upgrades, and consolidated the Barbed Strangler into the Stranglethron, and combined the two Venom Cannons. Might make sense that this happened, given they re-did the Warrior kit, and the Warrior's were the only ones that got the little Venom Cannon and the Barbed Strangler.
Again, prior to the Cruddace codex, there were no "heavy venom cannons" or "stranglethorn cannons". Warriors and MCs had access to the same weapons, using the same bits. The stats on the weapon were derived from the stats of the beastie holding it, so there was no need for separate weapons.
PastelAvenger wrote: Why does every new head have its tongue sticking out? It just looks ridiculous in my eyes. The concepts are all great and definitely an improvement though.
Maybe they use their tongues as a sense receptor like snakes? They need to lick the air to see where the food is!
rollawaythestone wrote:Y'know, it's also interesting to note that the Venom Cannon actually looks like a Heavy Venom Cannon. Very cool if the Warriors got access to the MC level heavy weapons.
ergotoxin wrote:Wow, you are right! That venom cannon looks more like a Heavy Venom Cannon as well, by the way.
rollawaythestone wrote:Either that or they dropped the Warrior level upgrades, and consolidated the Barbed Strangler into the Stranglethron, and combined the two Venom Cannons. Might make sense that this happened, given they re-did the Warrior kit, and the Warrior's were the only ones that got the little Venom Cannon and the Barbed Strangler.
Again, prior to the Cruddace codex, there were no "heavy venom cannons" or "stranglethorn cannons". Warriors and MCs had access to the same weapons, using the same bits. The stats on the weapon were derived from the stats of the beastie holding it, so there was no need for separate weapons.
That may be true, but there are two separate bits. Strangler/Venom Cannon made for Warriors, and ones made for MC's. The warrior kit either removed the Warrior-sized weapons, or they got access to stronger weapons.
A reminder - posting in this thread, or any other, is contingent upon following the Forum Rules. Failure to do so may lead to suspension of your ability to participate in the discussion.
If every army played the exact same way (like in FoW or WM/H)?
Not to derail this thread, but I'm sorry, but you lost all credibility for whatever argument you were trying to make with that statement. If you played either of those two games, you would know that this isn't the case at all.
rollawaythestone wrote: Y'know, it's also interesting to note that the Venom Cannon actually looks like a Heavy Venom Cannon. Very cool if the Warriors got access to the MC level heavy weapons.
Hmmm.
any clues as to what the future is for pod-heavy lists? Losing mycetic spores could have massive implications, how come no discussion?
Hivefleet Oblivion wrote: any clues as to what the future is for pod-heavy lists? Losing mycetic spores could have massive implications, how come no discussion?
What's to discuss? The only place I routinely used a pod was to deliver the Doom; if he's gone, I won't miss the pod as much. Really, it's a question of delivery mechanisms available - if Tyranids lose pods & assault-from-reserve Ymgarl, then everything else needs to get a lot faster, or a lot cheaper.
If they FIX the Trygon tunnel mechanic, much will be forgiven.
Because its all conjecture at this point. I'm hoping they weren't removed (and I actually find it kinda surprising that they would remove it as well as some of the special characters, that would be a first for 6th edition I think).
rollawaythestone wrote: That may be true, but there are two separate bits. Strangler/Venom Cannon made for Warriors, and ones made for MC's. The warrior kit either removed the Warrior-sized weapons, or they got access to stronger weapons.
I literally had to go into my closet of shame to see the small difference in weapons. Had no idea there was any difference at all, but the scales are definitely there on the latest Fex/Tyrant models, but not on the original weapon my tyrant carries.
Not sure how much stock I'd put in the change of weapon bit though.
Hivefleet Oblivion wrote: any clues as to what the future is for pod-heavy lists? Losing mycetic spores could have massive implications, how come no discussion?
What's to discuss? The only place I routinely used a pod was to deliver the Doom; if he's gone, I won't miss the pod as much.
If they FIX the Trygon tunnel mechanic, much will be forgiven.
Trygon tunnels: yes.
But we pod in Zoanthropes, sometimes the doom, and dakkafexes... seems so old-fashioned to walk 'em on. Yup, so much more we need to know.
I hope we don't lose the distinction between the Barbed Strangler and the Stranglethorn, if only because Stranglethorn was a cool name and one of the few cool new things the last 'Nid Codex came up with.
anonymous source over at Faeit 212 wrote:two new dataslates coming alongside tyranids next month. you might find it interesting that they are called codex dataslates. not sure what that means.
-Codex Dataslate: Tyranid Vanguard
advanced force of lictors, genestealers and more
-Codex Dataslate: Tyrannic War Veterans
Chaplin Cassius and his elite forces
Also, this seems to be the first Codex release with no new model below 50$, correct?
I bought a Tyrant Guard today. I explained to the guy in GW (normally I don't buy directly from them, but Tyrant Guard are out of my normal retailers and I was in GW anyway) that I wanted one of the 5th models before they became unavailable, and he told me quite nonchalantly that the new models look great.
It's not worth much, but it seems that GW employees are allowed to say such things, at this point. That's actually why I came to check this thread, because I hadn't seen the Tyrant Guard picture at that point.
It'll be weird to own OOP models. My best friend's dad has been a Tyranid/SM player since Rogue Trader, so aforementioned friend has a whole pile of ancient Tyranid models, such as the hilarious waving Tyrant Guard. It's weird in a good way, though. It makes me start to feel like a veteran player. *tear*
EDIT: I wonder if Tyrannic Veterans could serve as Deathwatch.
I think the reason there's nothing under $50 is because there aer no character models. How long has it been since we've had a release with no single characters (FineCost or otherwise)? Makes me hope that there is a second wave, although I suspect that if there was some of those models might have shown up in the Battle Report.
Actually, that's a better question for those who can remember:
Did the stuff in the Dark Elf second wave show up in their Army Book or in WD before they went up for pre-order?
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think the reason there's nothing under $50 is because there aer no character models. How long has it been since we've had a release with no single characters (FineCost or otherwise)?
Actually, there have been: Doom and Parasite. But instead of providing models, GW rather deleted the units (as current rumours indicate).
And in principle, it is not impossible to release models for less than 50$, see the vast majority of current Tyranid models (actually everything non-monstrous).
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think the reason there's nothing under $50 is because there aer no character models. How long has it been since we've had a release with no single characters (FineCost or otherwise)?
Actually, there have been: Doom and Parasite. But instead of providing models, GW rather deleted the units (as current rumours indicate).
And in principle, it is not impossible to release models for less than 50$, see the vast majority of current Tyranid models.
Your response doesn't make sense. H.B.M.C. is saying that there are no character models in this release. Not that there are no character models period, so your response ends up being a non-sequitor.
As for models under $50, GW has made all of those and released them (gaunts, gants, etc). They exist in the range already. They are working on big new stuff already. Actually, this is a better point than I thought. Previous re-releases of armies have focused on the core troops that you need a lot of. (Gants, gants, Cadians, Chaos Marines, etc.) The 'cheap' stuff. Once that's done, you move on in later re-releases to the big new flashy stuff. That could explain some (not all) of the price creep. I.e. GW long ago finished the 'cheap, need lots' models and are moving onto the 'don't need a lot but so we charge more' for models.
Rumor has it that there are several mutations/wargear that's available for the army. Some of them will be a one-per-army mutation/wargear.
For all we know, some of these one-ofs will give us the ability to field essentially a Doom or Parasite without having their own listings. Give a Zoanthrope a "Spirit Leech" mutation or a Prime a "Ripper Host + Wings" mutation and it's all good.
After all, the Eldar got a piece of wargear that essentially allowed you to field a Solitaire without releasing a specific model for it.
I think, Tyranids are the first victim of the new no-Finecast policy, that eventually will reduce all HQ Codex entries to just a handfull plastic blisters/boxes. This Codex will probably be the first with less HQ entries than its predecessor.
Kroothawk wrote: I think, Tyranids are the first victim of the new no-Finecast policy, that eventually will reduce all HQ Codex entries to just a handfull plastic blisters/boxes. This Codex will probably be the first with less HQ entries than its predecessor.
It's possible. Right now we have the Tyrant, Swarmlord, Prime, Tervigon, and the rumoured Trygon Prime in HQ. While rumors have it that we lost the Parasite. So as we guess now, we still have 6 HQ's in the slot.
Kroothawk wrote: I think, Tyranids are the first victim of the new no-Finecast policy, that eventually will reduce all HQ Codex entries to just a handfull plastic blisters/boxes. This Codex will probably be the first with less HQ entries than its predecessor.
Kroothawk wrote: I think, Tyranids are the first victim of the new no-Finecast policy, that eventually will reduce all HQ Codex entries to just a handfull plastic blisters/boxes. This Codex will probably be the first with less HQ entries than its predecessor.
Rumor was thrown around that the Trygon Prime was HQ.
So we have Swarmlord, Tyrant, Tervigon, and Tyranid Prime like in the old codex. Possibly a Trygon Prime, which would make sense flavor-wise.
The only drop is the Parasite which never had a model anyways. For all we know you could make a Parasite with wargear as I mentioned.
I think Tyranids fit being the first all plastic army better than many others. There's a lot of potential for bits swapping and they don't really have identifiable characters as such more breed types. It would be nice if there were biomorph variants listing some of the old foes that the Imperium had encountered in previous battles Red Terror, Old One Eye etc etc.
Did anybody save a copy of the pics before they went? I know I didn't
The Harpy/Crone were on flying stands weren't they? Knocks my theory of using the Tyrant kit out a little bit...
anonymous source over at Faeit 212 wrote:two new dataslates coming alongside tyranids next month. you might find it interesting that they are called codex dataslates. not sure what that means.
-Codex Dataslate: Tyranid Vanguard
advanced force of lictors, genestealers and more
-Codex Dataslate: Tyrannic War Veterans
Chaplin Cassius and his elite forces
Also, this seems to be the first Codex release with no new model below 50$, correct?
Yeay Day 0 DLC 's for 40k !!! Such breakthrough, very narrative , wow.
Hivefleet Oblivion wrote: any clues as to what the future is for pod-heavy lists? Losing mycetic spores could have massive implications, how come no discussion?
What's to discuss? The only place I routinely used a pod was to deliver the Doom; if he's gone, I won't miss the pod as much. Really, it's a question of delivery mechanisms available - if Tyranids lose pods & assault-from-reserve Ymgarl, then everything else needs to get a lot faster, or a lot cheaper.
If they FIX the Trygon tunnel mechanic, much will be forgiven.
I think there's lots to discuss.
Pod-heavy armies are a big deal for 'nid players - look at NIB's armies on tyranid hive. It will be a profound rearrangement for many if they're gone, a bigger deal for people who play nids than the (imaginary) loss of HQs (for after all, there was no official Prime model before).
Given the prices of these kits, I'll probably do a bit of cherry picking. Two of the big monster and a Prime is probably about it.
I've already got a brood of 6 Warriors with scythng talons and deathspitters, and another brood of 3 awaiting either conversion into Shrikes or arms to turn into normal Warriors. I'll see how the rules for both pan out.
Other than that, I really just need more Termagants, a third Carnifex and to finish off my Zoanthrope and Hive Guard broods - and there will be plenty of old models on ebay for a long time for me to do that.
The new kits are nice, and make me want to expand my army, but the prices are still flying rodent gak insane enough to get me to cherry pick and that's about all.
Absolutionis wrote: Rumor has it that there are several mutations/wargear that's available for the army. Some of them will be a one-per-army mutation/wargear.
For all we know, some of these one-ofs will give us the ability to field essentially a Doom or Parasite without having their own listings. Give a Zoanthrope a "Spirit Leech" mutation or a Prime a "Ripper Host + Wings" mutation and it's all good.
After all, the Eldar got a piece of wargear that essentially allowed you to field a Solitaire without releasing a specific model for it.
I consider this to be a good thing. I've long been against the idea of Tyranid special chracters and the idea that there are "personalities" within the Hive Mind, like Doom or the Parasite are creatures that travel from warzone to warzone. The Hive Mind doesn't (or shouldn't) function that way. Tyranids have an “everything you can do I can do better… eventually” mentality to problem solving, and their method is through trial and error and adapting to their foes.
Hive Fleet Behemoth was just that, a massive all-in style attack of pure brute force. The creatures in that were simplistic compared to Leviathan Tyranids, and the ‘Nids overwhelmed the things they couldn’t realistically counter. Kraken then came around with more advanced Tyranids, and the ‘Nids started to ape the strategies and tactics of the forces they were facing. That’s why we start to see more ranged weapons, larger creatures to counter Titans, and so on. By the time we hit Leviathan we’ve got a far more diverse structure, as the Hive Mind has tested out new designs and kept the ones that work.
So “Special Characters” never made sense. Prototypes, or specific creatures designed for a specific purpose make more sense. The Red Terror could be seen as the genesis of the Trygon – something the Hive Mind made to give it an advantage in that specific warzone but then later found that the mutation was generally useful elsewhere and thus began mass producing them. The Doom could be a similar thing, a creature created for the specific purpose of overwhelming the Eldar of Craftworld Malan’tai, a one-off “super” Zoanthrope that while useful in that situation hasn’t found widespread use as the Zoanthrope does the job more efficiently.
No Tyranid is special. They’re all fodder for the digestion pits come the end of a campaign. So the idea of “one off” mutations seems like a great way of allowing individualistic Tyranids without creating personalities.
But where does that leave the Swarmlord, you ask? Well that’s an interesting one, and I think it comes back to what the Hive Mind finds useful. In The Achillus Assault and Mark of the Xenos, two expansion books for the Deathwatch RPG, they talk about an interesting Tyranid void ship that seems to house the generic memories of particular creatures, so that experience from battles can be kept and imprinted on new creatures. The creature in question is the Dagon Overlord, another “unique” Hive Tyrant that isn’t actually unique. It’s been killed many times, but it keeps coming back (like the Swarmlord) with all it had learnt in tact because the Hive Mind has chosen to retain this “pattern” of creature for repeated use. It’s a bit like the Cylons from BSG, specifically the Cylon Raiders. They’re good because each time one dies it just transfers its consciousness into a new body, allowing all the experience to be kept rather than having to train a new pilot.
That’s how ‘Nid characters should work, and I hope the Codex goes in that direction.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pretre wrote: Yeah, I think this is less 'no finecast' and more 'no options that don't have models'.
Which is a little bit backwards. I think it should be a case of things without models get them, not things without models get cut.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kroothawk wrote: So according to you, it is not a sign of a no-Finecast-policy, but a no-models-for-units-without-models-policy
Why can't it be both?
Premise 1: We want all things with rules to have models.
Premise 2: We don't want to make any new FineCost models.
Conclusion: Models without rules that would be FineCost (as plastic moulds are expensive) get cut.
Quite interested in special rules for Cassius and his Nid Hunters, especially as I just bought a bunch of components to build him. Pity it won't be 'for free' in WD where it belongs...
First of the haruspex has been renamed as the hentiafex thanks to my friend :/
Next just reread the supposed new psychic powers and catalyst got a buff with it being 2 units one has to be the psyker (lets say the Swarmlord) another unit lets say hormagunts thus making both really benefit a flyrant will be able to both use it and help its garagoly screen just thought it was a great deal.
Kroothawk wrote: I think, Tyranids are the first victim of the new no-Finecast policy, that eventually will reduce all HQ Codex entries to just a handfull plastic blisters/boxes. This Codex will probably be the first with less HQ entries than its predecessor.
Rumor was thrown around that the Trygon Prime was HQ.
So we have Swarmlord, Tyrant, Tervigon, and Tyranid Prime like in the old codex. Possibly a Trygon Prime, which would make sense flavor-wise.
The only drop is the Parasite which never had a model anyways. For all we know you could make a Parasite with wargear as I mentioned.
No biggie.
Honestly I would be sad if they got rid of special characters to me it allowed the ability to represent a new a super mutation for that specific battle. Especially since I have taken the time to customize specific models to represent some of the special characters and to have to shelf them would be a shame in my eyes.
Absolutionis wrote: Rumor has it that there are several mutations/wargear that's available for the army. Some of them will be a one-per-army mutation/wargear.
For all we know, some of these one-ofs will give us the ability to field essentially a Doom or Parasite without having their own listings. Give a Zoanthrope a "Spirit Leech" mutation or a Prime a "Ripper Host + Wings" mutation and it's all good.
After all, the Eldar got a piece of wargear that essentially allowed you to field a Solitaire without releasing a specific model for it.
I consider this to be a good thing. I've long been against the idea of Tyranid special chracters and the idea that there are "personalities" within the Hive Mind, like Doom or the Parasite are creatures that travel from warzone to warzone. The Hive Mind doesn't (or shouldn't) function that way. Tyranids have an “everything you can do I can do better… eventually” mentality to problem solving, and their method is through trial and error and adapting to their foes.
Hive Fleet Behemoth was just that, a massive all-in style attack of pure brute force. The creatures in that were simplistic compared to Leviathan Tyranids, and the ‘Nids overwhelmed the things they couldn’t realistically counter. Kraken then came around with more advanced Tyranids, and the ‘Nids started to ape the strategies and tactics of the forces they were facing. That’s why we start to see more ranged weapons, larger creatures to counter Titans, and so on. By the time we hit Leviathan we’ve got a far more diverse structure, as the Hive Mind has tested out new designs and kept the ones that work.
So “Special Characters” never made sense. Prototypes, or specific creatures designed for a specific purpose make more sense. The Red Terror could be seen as the genesis of the Trygon – something the Hive Mind made to give it an advantage in that specific warzone but then later found that the mutation was generally useful elsewhere and thus began mass producing them. The Doom could be a similar thing, a creature created for the specific purpose of overwhelming the Eldar of Craftworld Malan’tai, a one-off “super” Zoanthrope that while useful in that situation hasn’t found widespread use as the Zoanthrope does the job more efficiently.
No Tyranid is special. They’re all fodder for the digestion pits come the end of a campaign. So the idea of “one off” mutations seems like a great way of allowing individualistic Tyranids without creating personalities.
But where does that leave the Swarmlord, you ask? Well that’s an interesting one, and I think it comes back to what the Hive Mind finds useful. In The Achillus Assault and Mark of the Xenos, two expansion books for the Deathwatch RPG, they talk about an interesting Tyranid void ship that seems to house the generic memories of particular creatures, so that experience from battles can be kept and imprinted on new creatures. The creature in question is the Dagon Overlord, another “unique” Hive Tyrant that isn’t actually unique. It’s been killed many times, but it keeps coming back (like the Swarmlord) with all it had learnt in tact because the Hive Mind has chosen to retain this “pattern” of creature for repeated use. It’s a bit like the Cylons from BSG, specifically the Cylon Raiders. They’re good because each time one dies it just transfers its consciousness into a new body, allowing all the experience to be kept rather than having to train a new pilot.
That’s how ‘Nid characters should work, and I hope the Codex goes in that direction.
Well, you just sold me on a 'nid army.
In all seriousness, that sounds really cool. Which is why the parasite never made much sense to me. There didn't seem to be a precedent for an "infection" creature, so the parasite always felt out of place to me. All the other characters made sense as "Alphas", proto-mutations or transferred consensuses, but the Parasite seemed like a one of a kind monster, so it never seemed to mesh.
You know, I actually like the concept behind Nid special characters, that they are just prototypes that can be respawned.
One of the gripes I have with the average Special Character is that it doesn't really make sense to use them in game. Like, what is Yarrick doing with this small IG army? Oh look, he just got sat on by a Great Unclean one...I guess Armageddon is fethed now.
With the "prototypes," it's understandable why they would be in such a small, throw away force - they are being tested so they can be improved later on by the hive. It doesn't matter if they die, because a new one can be spawned.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: You know, I actually like the concept behind Nid special characters, that they are just prototypes that can be respawned.
One of the gripes I have with the average Special Character is that it doesn't really make sense to use them in game. Like, what is Yarrick doing with this small IG army? Oh look, he just got sat on by a Great Unclean one...I guess Armageddon is fethed now.
With the "prototypes," it's understandable why they would be in such a small, throw away force - they are being tested so they can be improved later on by the hive. It doesn't matter if they die, because a new one can be spawned.
That's why I generally don't like special characters, especially the idea that multiple show up at the same time. Wow, so Yarrick's here alongside Marbo and Pask and just happens to be in the exact same area as Abaddon and Fateweaver and The Changeling? Amazing!
CthuluIsSpy wrote: You know, I actually like the concept behind Nid special characters, that they are just prototypes that can be respawned.
One of the gripes I have with the average Special Character is that it doesn't really make sense to use them in game. Like, what is Yarrick doing with this small IG army? Oh look, he just got sat on by a Great Unclean one...I guess Armageddon is fethed now.
With the "prototypes," it's understandable why they would be in such a small, throw away force - they are being tested so they can be improved later on by the hive. It doesn't matter if they die, because a new one can be spawned.
That's why I generally don't like special characters, especially the idea that multiple show up at the same time. Wow, so Yarrick's here alongside Marbo and Pask and just happens to be in the exact same area as Abaddon and Fateweaver and The Changeling? Amazing!
I know right? It's just down right silly. Even by 40k standards.
It's even better if it's someone like Eldrad, who is meant to be dead. Oh, rose himself from the grave just for a quick brawl has he? That's awfully lively of him!
Medium of Death wrote:I think Tyranids fit being the first all plastic army better than many others. There's a lot of potential for bits swapping and they don't really have identifiable characters as such more breed types. It would be nice if there were biomorph variants listing some of the old foes that the Imperium had encountered in previous battles Red Terror, Old One Eye etc etc.
Did anybody save a copy of the pics before they went? I know I didn't
The Harpy/Crone were on flying stands weren't they? Knocks my theory of using the Tyrant kit out a little bit...
Hivefleet Oblivion wrote: any clues as to what the future is for pod-heavy lists? Losing mycetic spores could have massive implications, how come no discussion?
What's to discuss? The only place I routinely used a pod was to deliver the Doom; if he's gone, I won't miss the pod as much. Really, it's a question of delivery mechanisms available - if Tyranids lose pods & assault-from-reserve Ymgarl, then everything else needs to get a lot faster, or a lot cheaper.
If they FIX the Trygon tunnel mechanic, much will be forgiven.
I think there's lots to discuss.
Pod-heavy armies are a big deal for 'nid players - look at NIB's armies on tyranid hive. It will be a profound rearrangement for many if they're gone, a bigger deal for people who play nids than the (imaginary) loss of HQs (for after all, there was no official Prime model before).
Pod-heavy armies were a big deal for a select few 'nid players. Most of the competitive scene was all Tervigons and Flyrants. The Doom in a Spore was often it, and seeing as how GW didn't sell either, it really doesn't matter that they are gone.
If some people were completely dependent on that strategy, they will just have to adapt. Perfect since they are playing Tyranids.
Most armies have seen changes since 6th edition and had to adjust the way they play. Sticking to the same strategy, and only that strategy for eternity is a rather boring way to play the game (for the player and his/her opponents).
They technically didn't have to spend any money on Spores, since GW never made them, so it's not a major setback to anyone who played it smart.
RandyMcStab wrote:Quite interested in special rules for Cassius and his Nid Hunters, especially as I just bought a bunch of components to build him. Pity it won't be 'for free' in WD where it belongs...
No, it will be a whopping $4 to have on a phone, tablet, or computer at all times instead of a magazine for $10.
H.B.M.C. wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote: You know, I actually like the concept behind Nid special characters, that they are just prototypes that can be respawned.
One of the gripes I have with the average Special Character is that it doesn't really make sense to use them in game. Like, what is Yarrick doing with this small IG army? Oh look, he just got sat on by a Great Unclean one...I guess Armageddon is fethed now.
With the "prototypes," it's understandable why they would be in such a small, throw away force - they are being tested so they can be improved later on by the hive. It doesn't matter if they die, because a new one can be spawned.
That's why I generally don't like special characters, especially the idea that multiple show up at the same time. Wow, so Yarrick's here alongside Marbo and Pask and just happens to be in the exact same area as Abaddon and Fateweaver and The Changeling? Amazing!
So the Swarmlord is like an organic Ultron?
I agree about Special Characters, to an extent. It's also one of many things I disliked about Warmachine - half the models are named characters in that game.
A lot of people aren't great at writing their own stories, so they want to use the guys from the ones already laid out. SC's give everyone something, but I NEVER liked them for Tyranids. I preferred the Tyranids to remain truly anonymous and without personality.
Well, actually, the nids SC are already without personality. The Deathleaper, for example doesn't really have a personality; he's as much as a killing machine as the lictor. He doesn't talk and he can't be reasoned. He's intelligent, but intelligence doesn't necessarily mean personality.
Compare this to Trazyn, who speaks, taunts, has a sense of humor and just flat out acts like a dick when it meets his fancy. That's a personality right there.
The Deadhleaper is a good example of something that should exist in the fluff, but not in-game. It was created for that Medusa campaign GW ran a while back. It was something the Hive Mind wanted to get back (ie. take in and consume) because it had gathered some very important information. It was a one-off creature created for a specific purpose.
H.B.M.C. wrote: The Deadhleaper is a good example of something that should exist in the fluff, but not in-game. It was created for that Medusa campaign GW ran a while back. It was something the Hive Mind wanted to get back (ie. take in and consume) because it had gathered some very important information. It was a one-off creature created for a specific purpose.
I feel that something like the Deathleaper works if you view it as a "super-model+", basically a specialized super-licter that's even better than a usual lictor, but requires more investment, and so is only deployed in very strategic locations. More of a Death-Leaper class lictor, but "THE DEATH LEAPER" sounds cooler, and is probably what the puny humans call it.
Crazy_Carnifex wrote: I feel that something like the Deathleaper works if you view it as a "super-model+", basically a specialized super-licter that's even better than a usual lictor, but requires more investment, and so is only deployed in very strategic locations. More of a Death-Leaper class lictor, but "THE DEATH LEAPER" sounds cooler, and is probably what the puny humans call it.
I get what you’re saying, and I too like the idea of the Deathleaper being a variant of the Lictor rather than a single solitary Tyranid “personality”, but it comes back to the way the Hive Mind works. If they have Lictors, and Super Lictors… why ever use Lictors? What purpose would it serve to continue using an inferior strain if the Deathleaper is obviously superior?
In a lot of ways Tyranids should be like Eldar Aspect Warriors. They all do one thing only (for the most part) and focus on that one thing. Versatility isn’t a word the Hive Mind should understand because it has no need to make a “bug for all occasions”. The Hive Mind is about specificity. It sees challenges and obstacles and creates specific solutions to those problems. Any the things that prove to have uses outside of their specific purpose (and we’d look at things like Warriors and Carnifexes as examples of this) would stick around. Everything else comes out as needed.
Again - Deathleaper and company are prototypes. Giving them some autonomy risks them breaking free of the hive mind so they don't want that to be the default.
Hivefleet Oblivion wrote: any clues as to what the future is for pod-heavy lists? Losing mycetic spores could have massive implications, how come no discussion?
What's to discuss? The only place I routinely used a pod was to deliver the Doom; if he's gone, I won't miss the pod as much. Really, it's a question of delivery mechanisms available - if Tyranids lose pods & assault-from-reserve Ymgarl, then everything else needs to get a lot faster, or a lot cheaper.
If they FIX the Trygon tunnel mechanic, much will be forgiven.
I think there's lots to discuss.
Pod-heavy armies are a big deal for 'nid players - look at NIB's armies on tyranid hive. It will be a profound rearrangement for many if they're gone, a bigger deal for people who play nids than the (imaginary) loss of HQs (for after all, there was no official Prime model before).
I have 5 homemade spores and used a null deployment army during 5th...at least until GKs arrived with all the trump cards. Here's how I look at it. On the list of possibilities, spores being eliminated is a more favorable outcome than me spending $300-400 to purchase official models. I'm guessing that deep striking may be more limited overall, but let's see what other options, formations, etc. arrive.
Right now things also aren't looking good for Shrikes. And I'm only sitting on like 4 sets of FW wings. I guess the bright side is that I never finished them and can repurpose the Warrior bodies.
Lockark wrote: Most of the images are broken for me. did anyone repost them/upload?
Check the first page of this thread. It's been updated.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I feel that Deathleaper/Swarmlord/Old One Eye/Red Terror work as individuals because of the autonomy they supposedly have. There's no need to make 300 Lictors to do the job that a Deathleaper could do, because the Deathleaper can do it himself just fine.
But why not make every Tyrant a Swarmlord since it's a superior strain? Because it's not- A Hive Tyrant has a separate purpose to the Swarmlord, and they only need one Swarmlord to do his job. There's no purpose to making more than one, when one does the job well enough.
Noctem wrote: I agree, the head is very silly, kind of disappointed they copy pasted the head on all the big bugs!
That was my first thought seeing the Harpy and other big beasty. The head looks very out of place imo.
I find this very strange. Its like being disappointed that a giant human has a human head.
No, I don't think it's strange at all. Just look at all the FW Nids, they all have very different designs yet maintain that same cohesive look through more subtle methods than plonking a carnifex head on the Harpy. I would have rather it looked more like this fella
Noctem wrote: I agree, the head is very silly, kind of disappointed they copy pasted the head on all the big bugs!
That was my first thought seeing the Harpy and other big beasty. The head looks very out of place imo.
I find this very strange. Its like being disappointed that a giant human has a human head.
No, I don't think it's strange at all. Just look at all the FW Nids, they all have very different designs yet maintain that same cohesive look through more subtle methods than plonking a carnifex head on the Harpy. I would have rather it looked more like this fella
Spoiler:
I wouldn't, because that was the old 3rd edition aesthetic. They just plonked a (then) Hive Tyrant-looking head on that flyer. Those FW 'nids will hopefully disappear and make way for new ones that fit the current aesthetic.
Tyranids no longer are without eyes and smiling like the Alien movies. Thankfully GW went their own direction instead of further piggy-backing on that franchise.
The Harridan and Hierodule kits don't present "unique" designs - it was just the Hive Tyrant theme from the same edition, only he walked upright. All of those bugs had heads WAY too big for their bodies anyway.
Besides, it's not the Carnifex head, so much as a play on the gaunt head...which the Carnifex also uses.
FW 'Nids were also designed ages ago, and used an aesthetic that Jes Goodwin came on board to fix in 4th Ed. Notice how the 3rd Ed Tyrant, the 3rd Ed Carnifex (aka Grinny McRhino Horn) and the 3rd Ed Raveners went away very quickly once Jes came back?
Yes that is fair enough, but Jes expounded on rules already existing in 3rd ed Models, 5 plates on head, general consistency in ribbing, limb detailing and such, cranial structure etc etc. All Tyranids existing today are more or less linear derivations from the plastic warriors and gaunts.
I think most would agree that the new fex is a step up. Hive tyrant I like but I admit it having a more gaunt'ish style head than the crested warrior still bugs me. This decision is more derived from shoulder configuration and back than anything else I would think.
But, getting to the point, I think there is merit in saying that for some, myself included, the design has become TOO streamlined and consistent for a race of creatures based on rapid mutation. most of them are quite similar in nearly all respects, with really only the elongation and bulging of shapes as opposed to true variety.
I don't think that completely different is the way to go either, but I think that retaining a set number of paradigms and leaving a few more open would still lead to a cohesive army but giving more of the impression of truly adapted evolution. I am now a bit saturated on the carnifex head on everything and or, big mouth/tentacle mouth options.
Consistency is super important, but, sometimes it can serve more as a shackle than a unifier. To the FW stuff, it is only really out of sync on the head designs (missing the 5 plate DNA), the rest remains pretty applicable, even if based in 3rd ed.
I like that Tyranids all seem to be variations on the one design. Shows that somewhere in there is the original Tyranid, and that everything stems from that.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I like that Tyranids all seem to be variations on the one design. Shows that somewhere in there is the original Tyranid, and that everything stems from that.
Agreed. I kind of think it would make less sense if there were a bunch of variations, because clearly the Tyranids have had quite a bit of time to try to continually perfect their 'design', so I get the feeling that they feel what they have now is basically the ultimate biological 'design' and then they just alter that core design to fit different battlefield roles.
IMHO, the Tyranid range as a whole is the closest thing GW has to a complete triumph. The Dark Eldar are close, but are hamstrung by a few terrible finecast units. The Tyranids, minus the biovore model, look awesome and share that great unified aesthetic that makes the army look great together on the table.
While I can see why some would feel like its just a case of slapping a 'carnifex head' on every new creature, I personally think there are enough subtle design differences in every creature that you can pretty much tell what model it is even from a pretty extreme close-up on the model's head.
Crazy_Carnifex wrote: I feel that something like the Deathleaper works if you view it as a "super-model+", basically a specialized super-licter that's even better than a usual lictor, but requires more investment, and so is only deployed in very strategic locations. More of a Death-Leaper class lictor, but "THE DEATH LEAPER" sounds cooler, and is probably what the puny humans call it.
I get what you’re saying, and I too like the idea of the Deathleaper being a variant of the Lictor rather than a single solitary Tyranid “personality”, but it comes back to the way the Hive Mind works. If they have Lictors, and Super Lictors… why ever use Lictors? What purpose would it serve to continue using an inferior strain if the Deathleaper is obviously superior?
In a lot of ways Tyranids should be like Eldar Aspect Warriors. They all do one thing only (for the most part) and focus on that one thing. Versatility isn’t a word the Hive Mind should understand because it has no need to make a “bug for all occasions”. The Hive Mind is about specificity. It sees challenges and obstacles and creates specific solutions to those problems. Any the things that prove to have uses outside of their specific purpose (and we’d look at things like Warriors and Carnifexes as examples of this) would stick around. Everything else comes out as needed.
I'll counter your point by asking what's the point in making Death leaper every time, if you can spend less biomass creating a Lictor that will most jobs just as well? And when you need something a little more specialized create Deathleaper.
MajorTom11 wrote:Yes that is fair enough, but Jes expounded on rules already existing in 3rd ed Models, 5 plates on head, general consistency in ribbing, limb detailing and such, cranial structure etc etc. All Tyranids existing today are more or less linear derivations from the plastic warriors and gaunts.
I think most would agree that the new fex is a step up. Hive tyrant I like but I admit it having a more gaunt'ish style head than the crested warrior still bugs me. This decision is more derived from shoulder configuration and back than anything else I would think.
But, getting to the point, I think there is merit in saying that for some, myself included, the design has become TOO streamlined and consistent for a race of creatures based on rapid mutation. most of them are quite similar in nearly all respects, with really only the elongation and bulging of shapes as opposed to true variety.
I don't think that completely different is the way to go either, but I think that retaining a set number of paradigms and leaving a few more open would still lead to a cohesive army but giving more of the impression of truly adapted evolution. I am now a bit saturated on the carnifex head on everything and or, big mouth/tentacle mouth options.
Consistency is super important, but, sometimes it can serve more as a shackle than a unifier. To the FW stuff, it is only really out of sync on the head designs (missing the 5 plate DNA), the rest remains pretty applicable, even if based in 3rd ed.
They did give Tyranids some variations though. Like humans, or dolphins, or even Orks, all have variations within their species, and yet all are unmistakably their type.
Tyranids now have some differences, but are all unmistakably Tyranids (instead of just random alien monsters designed to fit whatever creative whim is out there). We have the Cthulu strains with Vanguard and atrophy variations (Lictor & 'stealers, 'thropes); we have the stock soldier that probably makes it across all galaxies they consume (Warriors); and then the breeds that are constantly adapted per the needs of the Hive (5 plate DNA gaunts/Tyrant/Carnifex/Guard/titans). The way GW has slowly morphed them all to share common traits makes it so they blend together nicely.
I still strongly disagree with you about the Carnifex head on everything though. I can completely tell the difference between them all. Line up a series of photos of just the heads and I don't think too many people would trip on what they belong to. I mean, if the Hive Mind has decided that this is the best tracker or brain design for it's monsters (in this galaxy, anyway), then it makes sense to reproduce it en masse.
H.B.M.C. wrote:I like that Tyranids all seem to be variations on the one design. Shows that somewhere in there is the original Tyranid, and that everything stems from that.
Agreed. Like at some point, they had an "Eve" Tyranid that is mother to them all.
Edit. actually it would go further back than the Norn Queen. it would eventually go back to the bacterium that spawn through the ages to eventually become the Norn Queen.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I like that Tyranids all seem to be variations on the one design. Shows that somewhere in there is the original Tyranid, and that everything stems from that.
It's actually what makes the aesthetic so successful. When other companies make their alien 'race', it's a collection of odd looking critters without any thought to why they're a race, or they take the easy route and do them as not-humans.
The design decisions made during 3rd edition - amount of plates on the back and head, 6 limbs, tail, ribbed exoskeleton, etc does limit the creativity a bit when creating a new creature, but it really hammers home that it's a single race. Whenever people make a flyrant with wings on the carapace to make room for a 4th set of limbs, I die a little inside because it ruins the main strength of the Tyranid aesthetic.
Eldercaveman wrote: I'll counter your point by asking what's the point in making Death leaper every time, if you can spend less biomass creating a Lictor that will most jobs just as well? And when you need something a little more specialized create Deathleaper.
Resources are the least of the Hive Mind's concerns.
Eldercaveman wrote: I'll counter your point by asking what's the point in making Death leaper every time, if you can spend less biomass creating a Lictor that will most jobs just as well? And when you need something a little more specialized create Deathleaper.
Resources are the least of the Hive Mind's concerns.
Bio-effeciancy I'd argue is its primary concern, how to consume the most biomass, with as little expenditure as possible.
Fluff wise don't they take genetic material from many races? Meaning there shouldn't be the same base head on every model? I know that some may be able to pick out the different heads, but you can't disagree they all look very similar to the Carnifex head... And then the gants of course. It just doesn't look scary or awesome, it's fat, round, and weird!
I think they could have easily made more of a variation with the head of the Harpy and Haruspex to look different.
I will probably still end up collecting Tyranids again but I was hoping for some new ideas model wise. The tentacles on the Haruspex is the most original sculpted part so far but it's still growing on me.
Sinful Hero wrote: Yeah, it seems as if more are dying off every few minutes. I can see more on my phone than on my computer.
Spoiler:
Thanks, those pics all work fine, unlike 80% of those in the first post. Are they all the new images, or are there others you didn't manage to nab?
Appreciate the repost! I assume they work because they're not being hosted on imgur or whatever?
Noctem wrote: Fluff wise don't they take genetic material from many races? Meaning there shouldn't be the same base head on every model? I know that some may be able to pick out the different heads, but you can't disagree they all look very similar to the Carnifex head... And then the gants of course. It just doesn't look scary or awesome, it's fat, round, and weird!
I think they could have easily made more of a variation with the head of the Harpy and Haruspex to look different.
I will probably still end up collecting Tyranids again but I was hoping for some new ideas model wise. The tentacles on the Haruspex is the most original sculpted part so far but it's still growing on me.
That's a very superficial way of looking at DNA exchange, though.
Humanity made genetically modified tomatoes with fish DNA in them, but that didn't mean the tomatoes became fish-shaped.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I like that Tyranids all seem to be variations on the one design. Shows that somewhere in there is the original Tyranid, and that everything stems from that.
Agreed. I kind of think it would make less sense if there were a bunch of variations, because clearly the Tyranids have had quite a bit of time to try to continually perfect their 'design', so I get the feeling that they feel what they have now is basically the ultimate biological 'design' and then they just alter that core design to fit different battlefield roles.
IMHO, the Tyranid range as a whole is the closest thing GW has to a complete triumph. The Dark Eldar are close, but are hamstrung by a few terrible finecast units. The Tyranids, minus the biovore model, look awesome and share that great unified aesthetic that makes the army look great together on the table.
While I can see why some would feel like its just a case of slapping a 'carnifex head' on every new creature, I personally think there are enough subtle design differences in every creature that you can pretty much tell what model it is even from a pretty extreme close-up on the model's head.
Well-said. It's this very quality that makes me such a fan of the post-3rd edition Tyranid range. It has great unity
I'm an obsessed converter, but when it comes to my Tyranids I generally have to force myself to leave well enough alone. There's no good reason for one Carnifex to have a better head-spike than another Carnifex in the same unit. If there was, the Hive Mind would have thought of it first. I am nothing before it.
Noctem wrote: Fluff wise don't they take genetic material from many races? Meaning there shouldn't be the same base head on every model? I know that some may be able to pick out the different heads, but you can't disagree they all look very similar to the Carnifex head... And then the gants of course. It just doesn't look scary or awesome, it's fat, round, and weird!
I think they could have easily made more of a variation with the head of the Harpy and Haruspex to look different.
I will probably still end up collecting Tyranids again but I was hoping for some new ideas model wise. The tentacles on the Haruspex is the most original sculpted part so far but it's still growing on me.
That's a very superficial way of looking at DNA exchange, though.
Humanity made genetically modified tomatoes with fish DNA in them, but that didn't mean the tomatoes became fish-shaped.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I like that Tyranids all seem to be variations on the one design. Shows that somewhere in there is the original Tyranid, and that everything stems from that.
Agreed. I kind of think it would make less sense if there were a bunch of variations, because clearly the Tyranids have had quite a bit of time to try to continually perfect their 'design', so I get the feeling that they feel what they have now is basically the ultimate biological 'design' and then they just alter that core design to fit different battlefield roles.
IMHO, the Tyranid range as a whole is the closest thing GW has to a complete triumph. The Dark Eldar are close, but are hamstrung by a few terrible finecast units. The Tyranids, minus the biovore model, look awesome and share that great unified aesthetic that makes the army look great together on the table.
While I can see why some would feel like its just a case of slapping a 'carnifex head' on every new creature, I personally think there are enough subtle design differences in every creature that you can pretty much tell what model it is even from a pretty extreme close-up on the model's head.
Well-said. It's this very quality that makes me such a fan of the post-3rd edition Tyranid range. It has great unity
I'm an obsessed converter, but when it comes to my Tyranids I generally have to force myself to leave well enough alone. There's no good reason for one Carnifex to have a better head-spike than another Carnifex in the same unit. If there was, the Hive Mind would have thought of it first. I am nothing before it.
Agreed, agreed, and agreed.
I'm loving this more an more, and super excited to get the codex in-hand.
Noctem wrote: Fluff wise don't they take genetic material from many races? Meaning there shouldn't be the same base head on every model? I know that some may be able to pick out the different heads, but you can't disagree they all look very similar to the Carnifex head... And then the gants of course. It just doesn't look scary or awesome, it's fat, round, and weird!
I think they could have easily made more of a variation with the head of the Harpy and Haruspex to look different.
I will probably still end up collecting Tyranids again but I was hoping for some new ideas model wise. The tentacles on the Haruspex is the most original sculpted part so far but it's still growing on me.
That's a very superficial way of looking at DNA exchange, though.
Humanity made genetically modified tomatoes with fish DNA in them, but that didn't mean the tomatoes became fish-shaped.
Hmm good point! I still think that their heads would look more different than they do =( I guess it's just an aesthetic sculpt that I just don't see all that cool...
Noctem wrote: Fluff wise don't they take genetic material from many races? Meaning there shouldn't be the same base head on every model? I know that some may be able to pick out the different heads, but you can't disagree they all look very similar to the Carnifex head... And then the gants of course. It just doesn't look scary or awesome, it's fat, round, and weird!
I think they could have easily made more of a variation with the head of the Harpy and Haruspex to look different.
I will probably still end up collecting Tyranids again but I was hoping for some new ideas model wise. The tentacles on the Haruspex is the most original sculpted part so far but it's still growing on me.
That's a very superficial way of looking at DNA exchange, though.
Humanity made genetically modified tomatoes with fish DNA in them, but that didn't mean the tomatoes became fish-shaped.
Hmm good point! I still think that their heads would look more different than they do =( I guess it's just an aesthetic sculpt that I just don't see all that cool...
Yes, the heads are very much the "same" but I like them that way
Eldercaveman wrote: I'll counter your point by asking what's the point in making Death leaper every time, if you can spend less biomass creating a Lictor that will most jobs just as well? And when you need something a little more specialized create Deathleaper.
Resources are the least of the Hive Mind's concerns.
Bio-effeciancy I'd argue is its primary concern, how to consume the most biomass, with as little expenditure as possible.
Definitely efficiency - the creatures are tools to do a specific job and are designed as such to get the optimum results for the least output. The special strains [I'm not going to call them characters] are specialists created to solve specific problems- terror weapons etc.. I like the idea of alpha strains and specific mutants but not "personalities"- then again I don't like special characters [other than in the fluff].
5deadly wrote: New lictor model not gonna happen now? I thought early on I read something about a plastic lictor.
You'd do best to disregard any 'Nid rumours older than a week as complete fabrication. That said, there is still the possibility of a second wave, so I'd hold off on buying any non-plastic Tyranid models at least until we have an idea what's coming in February. If there's not another wave of 'Nid releases then, there's probably not coming anything new that is Tyranid related until the other codexes have been updated to 6th edition.
Over on Warseer, it's suggested the Warrior box includes Prime Options, plus lashwhips and bonewsords. That's a big saving over the current arrangement... almost a price cut. I need to sit down.
Lots of discussion over at the tryanid hive about the loss of mycetic spores. There's going to have to be a substantial reworking of some armies.
Hivefleet Oblivion wrote: Over on Warseer, it's suggested the Warrior box includes Prime Options, plus lashwhips and bonewsords. That's a big saving over the current arrangement... almost a price cut. I need to sit down.
The price went up. The extra bits don't let you build any more than the 3 models you could build before.
Hivefleet Oblivion wrote: Over on Warseer, it's suggested the Warrior box includes Prime Options, plus lashwhips and bonewsords. That's a big saving over the current arrangement... almost a price cut. I need to sit down.
The price went up. The extra bits don't let you build any more than the 3 models you could build before.
Sure. But our warriors, with lashwhips and boneswords, cost us £28.50 (or rather £24 from Dark Sphere) plus £14.50 for the weapons. Likewise, altho you have to buy two carnifexes, there's a price decrease from £65 to £55 at full price (yes, the old carnifex was v expensive). Which is certainly better than what happened to Eldar Dark Avengers.
Noctem wrote: Fluff wise don't they take genetic material from many races? Meaning there shouldn't be the same base head on every model? I know that some may be able to pick out the different heads, but you can't disagree they all look very similar to the Carnifex head... And then the gants of course. It just doesn't look scary or awesome, it's fat, round, and weird!
I think they could have easily made more of a variation with the head of the Harpy and Haruspex to look different.
I will probably still end up collecting Tyranids again but I was hoping for some new ideas model wise. The tentacles on the Haruspex is the most original sculpted part so far but it's still growing on me.
That's a very superficial way of looking at DNA exchange, though.
Humanity made genetically modified tomatoes with fish DNA in them, but that didn't mean the tomatoes became fish-shaped.
Hmm good point! I still think that their heads would look more different than they do =( I guess it's just an aesthetic sculpt that I just don't see all that cool...
Yes, the heads are very much the "same" but I like them that way
I just wanted to extend this weird quoting further.
But back on topic, I really like the look of some of these models.
Is it just me, or is the Haruspex suspiciously similar to the mutalith vortex beast?
Sinful Hero wrote: Yeah, it seems as if more are dying off every few minutes. I can see more on my phone than on my computer.
Spoiler:
Thanks, those pics all work fine, unlike 80% of those in the first post. Are they all the new images, or are there others you didn't manage to nab?
Appreciate the repost! I assume they work because they're not being hosted on imgur or whatever?
It is missing one alternate view of one of the heavy support bugs, and the old hive guard pic that leaked. But other than that it has all the new models.
H.B.M.C. wrote: That's why I generally don't like special characters, especially the idea that multiple show up at the same time. Wow, so Yarrick's here alongside Marbo and Pask and just happens to be in the exact same area as Abaddon and Fateweaver and The Changeling? Amazing!
Don't forget when Saint Celestine face… Saint Celestine !
Some grey knight special character even have a rule for when he face himself ! Because Grey Knight facing Grey Knight make sense, right ?
They use the same sorry excuse of an explanation that one of them is an “impostor”. A pretty damn good impostor, with exactly the same rules and model and fluff !
I like better the quite different heads from 3rd edition. Every tyranid comes from the same source, but some part are atrophied or hypertrophied to fill one role or another. Why doesn't the cranial plates, and lower jaw, and, well, pretty much every part of the head change this way ? The same basic component, but morphed to suit one purpose or another !
Sinful Hero wrote: Yeah, it seems as if more are dying off every few minutes. I can see more on my phone than on my computer.
Spoiler:
Thanks, those pics all work fine, unlike 80% of those in the first post. Are they all the new images, or are there others you didn't manage to nab?
Appreciate the repost! I assume they work because they're not being hosted on imgur or whatever?
There's a better picture of the Haruspex, and the codex cover which I didn't bother posting because they were still up in the first post. Yeah, hosted them somewhere else. And here's the same pictures from the 1st post in case they disappear.
Spoiler:
FULL CODEX COVER!!!
Spoiler:
Automatically Appended Next Post: More new stuff- From 4chan
Spoiler:
Also have a copy of the entry for Genestealers and Warriors. Don't think its allowed to post that kind of thing here though.
Warriors may have gotten a bump in BS, but it's really blurry. Otherwise they are the same. No upgrade to prime.
I think only one model can think a heavy weapon- says "one model is the blank blank may take an item form the Basic Biocannons list."
"Any model may take blank from the Basic Bioweapons and Melee Bioweapons lists."
Upgrades include Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands, and Flesh Hooks.
Genestealers and the Broodlord stayed the same. Points and statwise.
Fleet, Infiltrate, Move through Cover. Broodlord is Bulky and can't tell the Psyker mastery level. Could be anything from 1-3. Broodlord always has The Horror psychic power.
Upgrades include Scything Talons, Toxin Sacs, and Adrenal Glands.
"A Broodlord may take blank blank the Biomorphs list."
tetrisphreak wrote: Hmm. Sweet! Those new spore mines look like they're bigger than the traditional ones. I bet the exocrine has something to do with those.
Maybe it's a sign for wave 2, with plastic Bioviores? *Hopes beyond hope*
Those don't really fit the Exocrine do they? They may be the Harpys spore mine.
Edited it into my other post. I assume a broodlord can take Fleshhooks if it's included in the biomorphs list. I also assume Fleshhooks=Assault Grenades.
And just because.
Warriors may have gotten a bump in BS, but it's really blurry. Otherwise they are the same. No upgrade to prime.
I think only one model can think a heavy weapon- says "one model is the blank blank may take an item form the Basic Biocannons list."
"Any model may take blank from the Basic Bioweapons and Melee Bioweapons lists."
Upgrades include Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands, and Flesh Hooks.
Genestealers and the Broodlord stayed the same. Points and statwise.
Fleet, Infiltrate, Move through Cover. Broodlord is Bulky and can't tell the Psyker mastery level. Could be anything from 1-3. Broodlord always has The Horror psychic power.
Upgrades include Scything Talons, Toxin Sacs, and Adrenal Glands.
"A Broodlord may take blank blank the Biomorphs list."
Oh, and you don't upgrade a Genestealer to a Broodlord. You buy him in addition to the basic 5. For the cost of a stealer + Broodlord from the 5th edt. codex.
Sinful Hero wrote: Warriors may have gotten a bump in BS, but it's really blurry. Otherwise they are the same. No upgrade to prime.
I think only one model can think a heavy weapon- says "one model is the blank blank may take an item form the Basic Biocannons list."
"Any model may take blank from the Basic Bioweapons and Melee Bioweapons lists."
Upgrades include Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands, and Flesh Hooks.
Here's hoping for some kind of Synapse = Eternal Warrior buff.
Genestealers and the Broodlord stayed the same. Points and statwise.
Fleet, Infiltrate, Move through Cover. Broodlord is Bulky and can't tell the Psyker mastery level. Could be anything from 1-3. Broodlord always has The Horror psychic power.
Upgrades include Scything Talons, Toxin Sacs, and Adrenal Glands.
"A Broodlord may take blank blank the Biomorphs list."
Warriors still have Synapse and Shadow in the Warp if I wasn't clear. And as for genestealers I assume a Broodlord can take Flesh Hooks. Pretty harsh tax for it though.
tetrisphreak wrote:Hmm. Sweet! Those new spore mines look like they're bigger than the traditional ones. I bet the exocrine has something to do with those.
They're from the Harpy kit.
Sinful Hero wrote:Edited it into my other post. I assume a broodlord can take Fleshhooks if it's included in the biomorphs list.
The Warrior entry lists Flesh Hooks separately from the Biomorph lists, so don't count on it. Edit: Ah, warriors don't have access to the list called 'Biomorphs', so still a possibility I guess. Not that it'll help Genestealers much from the looks of it.
tetrisphreak wrote:Hmm. Sweet! Those new spore mines look like they're bigger than the traditional ones. I bet the exocrine has something to do with those.
They're from the Harpy kit.
Sinful Hero wrote:Edited it into my other post. I assume a broodlord can take Fleshhooks if it's included in the biomorphs list.
The Warrior entry lists Flesh Hooks separately from the Biomorph lists, so don't count on it.
There is a difference between Basic Biomorph list and the Biomorph list, so I'm gonna go ahead and be optimistic about this one.
Yea with no point drop in base cost, or upgrade cost, with same stats they will suffer all the same problems as now. Tragic, really, as genestealers were the key unit that got me into playing tyranids.
I think Genestealers are going to have an option for grenades based on the rumors. But, they may not be worth it, depending on how they synch with the army.
Sinful Hero wrote:There is a difference between Basic Biomorph list and the Biomorph list, so I'm gonna go ahead and be optimistic about this one.
Yeah, noticed it a little to late, already edited my post.
Kirasu wrote:So.. genestealers look to have no grenades, same armor save and no kind of cover save boosting ability? Hmm.. sounds like a shelf-unit still..
Yeah, looks like they'll get the Howling Banshees treatment... But it's still possible they nicely synergize with some other unit/rules, so let's hope for that. Also, changes in Scything Talons, Rending Claws, Adrenal Glands, Poison Sacks or the Horror could make a big difference.
tetrisphreak wrote:Hmm. Sweet! Those new spore mines look like they're bigger than the traditional ones. I bet the exocrine has something to do with those.
They're from the Harpy kit.
Sinful Hero wrote:Edited it into my other post. I assume a broodlord can take Fleshhooks if it's included in the biomorphs list.
The Warrior entry lists Flesh Hooks separately from the Biomorph lists, so don't count on it.
There is a difference between Basic Biomorph list and the Biomorph list, so I'm gonna go ahead and be optimistic about this one.
Don't be- even if the broodlord has access to flesh hooks they'll only effect his initiative, not the unit. Assault Grenades are a per model basis.
tetrisphreak wrote:Hmm. Sweet! Those new spore mines look like they're bigger than the traditional ones. I bet the exocrine has something to do with those.
They're from the Harpy kit.
Sinful Hero wrote:Edited it into my other post. I assume a broodlord can take Fleshhooks if it's included in the biomorphs list.
The Warrior entry lists Flesh Hooks separately from the Biomorph lists, so don't count on it.
There is a difference between Basic Biomorph list and the Biomorph list, so I'm gonna go ahead and be optimistic about this one.
Don't be- even if the broodlord has access to flesh hooks they'll only effect his initiative, not the unit. Assault Grenades are a per model basis.
Ah, forgot about that bit. Could still be a small sliver of hope though on the Biomorphs list and in the details of Flesh Hooks(counts as for the whole unit). The Flesh Hooks entry doesn't seem to say /model on point costs. Could just be blurry though.
Pretty sure it's just a blurry version of /model. Ignore me.
The problem with the Genestealers isn't the unit itself, but the delivery method. If there is something in the Codex (or in a supplement) that lets them reach safely CC, then they are going to be worth it.
Sasori wrote: Now, the curious question is if those Scans are from the WD or the actual codex itself.
Judging from the resolution, they're from the previews in the WD. I doubt the rules will be different between the WD previews and the actual codex though.
On a sidenote, notice how the Warriors and Broodlord entries list Bulky/Very Bulky? Why would they bother listing those unless there is was a way to transport them?
Sasori wrote: Now, the curious question is if those Scans are from the WD or the actual codex itself.
Judging from the resolution, they're from the previews in the WD. I doubt the rules will be different between the WD previews and the actual codex though.
On a sidenote, notice how the Warriors and Broodlord entries list Bulky/Very Bulky? Why would they bother listing those unless there is was a way to transport them?
For weapons like the FW super riptide that do extra damage depending of they are Bulky/Very Bulky/ MCs
I don't think the rules would change, but it would be nice if we could get the codex info leaked before TOO long. Some of this speculation is just killing me.
Sasori wrote: Now, the curious question is if those Scans are from the WD or the actual codex itself.
Judging from the resolution, they're from the previews in the WD. I doubt the rules will be different between the WD previews and the actual codex though.
On a sidenote, notice how the Warriors and Broodlord entries list Bulky/Very Bulky? Why would they bother listing those unless there is was a way to transport them?
Standardization maybe? The 5th edition doesn't mention it though. It's possible something along the lines of "all troops may take a Mycetic Spore" is in the codex or a supplement, but that's wishlisting unless White Dwarf guy can tell us more/codex comes out.
Tyran wrote: The problem with the Genestealers isn't the unit itself, but the delivery method. If there is something in the Codex (or in a supplement) that lets them reach safely CC, then they are going to be worth it.
Agreed, give the venomthropes a stackable cover save and you could **definitely** find some use for my poor under utilized little stealers.
Sasori wrote: Now, the curious question is if those Scans are from the WD or the actual codex itself.
Judging from the resolution, they're from the previews in the WD. I doubt the rules will be different between the WD previews and the actual codex though.
On a sidenote, notice how the Warriors and Broodlord entries list Bulky/Very Bulky? Why would they bother listing those unless there is was a way to transport them?
For purposes of embarking within buildings and fortifications.
Tyran wrote: The problem with the Genestealers isn't the unit itself, but the delivery method. If there is something in the Codex (or in a supplement) that lets them reach safely CC, then they are going to be worth it.
Agreed, give the venomthropes a stackable cover save and you could **definitely** find some use for my poor under utilized little stealers.
Venomthropes can easily get a lot better with just a few tweaks.
Sasori wrote: Now, the curious question is if those Scans are from the WD or the actual codex itself.
Judging from the resolution, they're from the previews in the WD. I doubt the rules will be different between the WD previews and the actual codex though.
On a sidenote, notice how the Warriors and Broodlord entries list Bulky/Very Bulky? Why would they bother listing those unless there is was a way to transport them?
In Apoc, the Hierophant has an upgrade that lets it act as an assault transport for 20 models. It meant that Warriors were actually useful to some extent in Apoc as there was a more reliable way to deliver them... however now that they're Very Bulky you can only deliver 6 of them like that instead of a full brood+Prime.
Kroothawk wrote: Fixed the pic links in the first post ... for now.
Didn't they come from 4chan? 1st was posted there at 8am CST. ~2 hours ago.
Also a size comparison(stolen from 4chan)
Spoiler:
Wrong, the poster is ASKING if it's the right size, he's not saying that this is it.
And in fact the anon posting the pics is saying that the Exo/Haru are bigger than in that picture.
True, but even if you turned the thing around a bit, it's still going to be about the size of a Tervigon/Tyrannofex, but ALOT bulkier. And forgive me for not giving some clarification.
tetrisphreak wrote: How cool would it be if the haruspex could swallow entire vehicles whole, like the Red Terror used to do to infantry? That would be awesome.
Though by the model it looks like it's modus operandi is to use it's claws of life to pry open tanks and then feed on the insides.
Yep, that sounds about right. The old fluff said that it uses it's claws to tear apart it's prey.
This is what it looked like, btw
Apparently, this is an armorcast model of it as well
The Lost and the Banned
This section is dedicated to a rough history of Warhammer related resin casting in the US and a list of products that were produced by the companies listed here. Strangely enough all the US licensed producers of Games Workshop copyrighted models were located within 4 hours of each other in Northern California.
In the Beginning…
First there was a barren emptiness, Warhammer 40K players had no vehicles there were only 2 Games Workshop models and those were only for one race - the Marines.
Along came Mike Biasi - the "Master" Mike is a very talented artist and sculptor and he produced a 40K scale Titan modeled on the early Games Workshop Plastic and metal Epic models for Adeptus Titanicus.
Mike lived in Santa Rosa, California up the coast form San Francisco, back in those days Games Workshop was a smaller, less complicated company than they are now and when Mike sent them his Titan they were impressed! They gave Mike a copyright license to produce 40K scale models of Epic vehicles; Mike named his company Mike Biasi Studios.
The local gaming community being small and fairly tight knit - word soon got around about these wonderful models and Tim Dupertuis started publishing Inquisitor magazine with rules for these models in it. I saw Mike's models and realized where he was going BIG I could go small. So I made some models and sent them to GW and luckily enough they gave me a copyright too! I named my company Epicast USA.
Let me state now - Mike is a classically trained and educated artist with university level courses in Art and sculpture behind him; I am an enthusiastic converter/scratch builder with some artistic talent. There was little comparison between our models and Mike's later work with Armorcast and Forgeworld UK is of professional standard.
Mike's association with Games Workshop ended and John Richardson of Modesto, California and some other friends approached Games Workshop with a proposition. They asked GW for the right to reproduce Mike's models and other new ones on a large scale production basis. GW agreed and gave them a contract.
They formed Forgeworld USA Tim Dupertuis approached GW and asked for the same rights and contract and got Mike to agree to work with him to refine and update the models. Tim formed a company called Armorcast.
So there you have it: in order of appearance: Mike Biasi Studios, Epicast, Forgeworld USA, Armorcast.
Over time these three companies produced the range of Games Workshop licensed models listed below, there is one other mention - though I don't know who the company was but there was a limited release in Games Workshop shops in the UK only of a Polyvinyl cast "Gobsmasha" this model was about half the size of the Epicast model and was made to fit into a clamshell blister pack. I was originally told 500 were made but I think this number is high. If anyone has information on this company please let me know.
The problem with the Genestealers isn't the unit itself, but the delivery method. If there is something in the Codex (or in a supplement) that lets them reach safely CC, then they are going to be worth it.
No, the problem with genestealers is you're paying MEQ prices for something with no utility. Here's some math hammer for you:
10 Genestealers VS 10 MEQ:
Overwatch (10 bolters) : 20 S4 AP5 at BS1 = 5/3 wounds
9 Genestealers attack: 27 S4 rending attacks at WS6 = 5 wounds
5 MEQ attack: 5 S4 attacks at WS4 = 5/6 wounds
So, if genestealers take no casualties, the marines are charged, out of terrain and if all rolls are average, genestealers kill half the unit. Marines then autopass and in the next round of combat, genestealers do ~1.9 more wounds, the MEQ do 0.5 wounds. The MEQ lose on the next round of combat, leaving the stealers free in the MEQ players turn to shoot at them.
Let's look at 5 assault Terminators VS 14 genestealers to reenact Space Hulk.
Overwatch: 10 S4 AP5 at BS1 = 5/6 wound
9 genestealers attack: 27 S4 rending attacks at WS6 = 3 wounds
2 TEQ attack: 4 S8 AP2 attacks at WS4 = 5/3 wounds
Seems decent, yeah? Well... no, not at all. See, let's look at ONE round of shooting resolved against these guys. That's 10 S4 AP5 at BS4 = 10/3 - you lose over 42 points per turn. Against one of the most common, most used guns in the game, they die like rats. It's like losing 3 marines to bolters - kinda dumb.
Now let's look at what happens if there IS terrain to charge through, but they still take absolutely no wounds from shooting somehow:
10 vs 10 MEQ:
Overwatch (10 bolters) : 20 S4 AP5 at BS1 = 5/3 wounds
10 MEQ attack: 10 S4 attacks at WS4 = 5/3 wounds
7 genestealers attack: 21 S4 rending attacks at WS6 = 35/9 (~4) wounds
Genestealers here almost tie with MEQ. On the charge. Yeah.
14 vs 5 TEQ:
Overwatch: 10 S4 AP5 at BS1 = 5/6 wound
9 genestealers attack: 27 S4 rending attacks at WS6 = 3 wounds
5 TEQ attack at the same time: 10 S8 AP2 attacks at WS4 = 25/6 wounds (~4)
Here, on the charge, they lose. Not point for point, but they actually lose combat. 5 will die compared to 3 TEQ. It's dumb.
See, the issue isn't that Genestealers have been denied good ways to get into combat, it's that even once they're there, they're very underwhelming for a dedicated assault unit. As in, they're trash. If they had a rule which just put them in combat in the first turn, that's pretty much the only time they'd be usable (and then they'd be broken as you could tie up everything with an insta-tarpit). Tau will wipe them. Eldar will wipe them. Necrons will wipe them. Daemons easily beat them in combat. Even MEQ armies destroy them. They are good against nothing unless they miraculously get into combat completely unscathed and even then they're unable to do a massive amount of damage.
I hammer this comparison a lot but that's because I think it should hold true - compare it to Space Hulk. In Space Hulk, a genestealers chance to die per resolved storm bolter shot is 11/36. In 40k, it's 20/36, almost twice as high. In Space Hulk, a Genestealer has really quite a low chance to die in assault, and a very high chance to kill outright (I mean, it's like 70% just to kill, with almost no chance to die). In 40k, it has a 217/729 chance, or ~30%. TEQ then has a 95/144 or ~66% to kill. This is really, really stupid when genestealers can ONLY assault.
Until Genestealers return to their former glory of not only just having a 4+, but also being able to annihilate stuff in assault, they will remain unplayable. It's a sign of how bad assault is in 40k that to match their Space Hulk days genestealers would need 10 attacks EACH to regain their old chance to kill TEQ. I mean, think of what is viable in assault at the moment and tell me which of those hasn't got either a 2++ rerollable+at least 12" move, the potential for an immediate first turn assault or is an MC. Sorry for the rant, but it's just absurd.
TL;DR genestealers are weak, bad assault only units in an edition where assault is incredibly underpowered and hard to get into anyway.
The Lost and the Banned
This section is dedicated to a rough history of Warhammer related resin casting in the US and a list of products that were produced by the companies listed here. Strangely enough all the US licensed producers of Games Workshop copyrighted models were located within 4 hours of each other in Northern California.
In the Beginning…
First there was a barren emptiness, Warhammer 40K players had no vehicles there were only 2 Games Workshop models and those were only for one race - the Marines.
Along came Mike Biasi - the "Master" Mike is a very talented artist and sculptor and he produced a 40K scale Titan modeled on the early Games Workshop Plastic and metal Epic models for Adeptus Titanicus.
Mike lived in Santa Rosa, California up the coast form San Francisco, back in those days Games Workshop was a smaller, less complicated company than they are now and when Mike sent them his Titan they were impressed! They gave Mike a copyright license to produce 40K scale models of Epic vehicles; Mike named his company Mike Biasi Studios.
The local gaming community being small and fairly tight knit - word soon got around about these wonderful models and Tim Dupertuis started publishing Inquisitor magazine with rules for these models in it. I saw Mike's models and realized where he was going BIG I could go small. So I made some models and sent them to GW and luckily enough they gave me a copyright too! I named my company Epicast USA.
Let me state now - Mike is a classically trained and educated artist with university level courses in Art and sculpture behind him; I am an enthusiastic converter/scratch builder with some artistic talent. There was little comparison between our models and Mike's later work with Armorcast and Forgeworld UK is of professional standard.
Mike's association with Games Workshop ended and John Richardson of Modesto, California and some other friends approached Games Workshop with a proposition. They asked GW for the right to reproduce Mike's models and other new ones on a large scale production basis. GW agreed and gave them a contract.
They formed Forgeworld USA Tim Dupertuis approached GW and asked for the same rights and contract and got Mike to agree to work with him to refine and update the models. Tim formed a company called Armorcast.
So there you have it: in order of appearance: Mike Biasi Studios, Epicast, Forgeworld USA, Armorcast.
Over time these three companies produced the range of Games Workshop licensed models listed below, there is one other mention - though I don't know who the company was but there was a limited release in Games Workshop shops in the UK only of a Polyvinyl cast "Gobsmasha" this model was about half the size of the Epicast model and was made to fit into a clamshell blister pack. I was originally told 500 were made but I think this number is high. If anyone has information on this company please let me know.
OT but just in case anybody wonders: I've seen references to the blisterpack Gobsmasha being by Monolith designs - Steve Mussared who mainly did resin scenery but also very small (test?) runs of some 40K and Epic vehicals
So have the earlier rumors of a run assault ability been shot down? Seems army wide abilities are still being held hush hush to me. Perhaps a sign were in for something interesting and new?
Backlash wrote: So have the earlier rumors of a run assault ability been shot down? Seems army wide abilities are still being held hush hush to me. Perhaps a sign were in for something interesting and new?
Nothing seems confirmed yet. Honestly, I tend to take that silence as meaning it's not in there (you'd think that'd be an important highlight in the battle report). You never know, though.
Backlash wrote: So have the earlier rumors of a run assault ability been shot down? Seems army wide abilities are still being held hush hush to me. Perhaps a sign were in for something interesting and new?
I think all the current leaks are WD ones and we are still a way off anyone getting there hands on a codex to leak.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: By the way, who is Armorcast? I know they are a miniature company, but were they Citadel's predecessor or something?
Essentially Forge World's independent licensed predecessor. Before GW did any resin we (Armorcast) held licenses to produce 40K scale versions of many of he epic vehicles and critters. When it started, GW did not think there was a market for large resin stuff, but after three years of licenses ('96-'98) and the sales 30,000 resin kits, GW decided that perhaps there was a market after all and did not renew the Armorcast license when it came up for renewal.
I thought it was a couple years later that the first Forge World full vehicle models were produced, but it might have been less. Lexicanium says the company started in 1998, so would likely would have been in existence when the Armorcast license ended or shortly thereafter.
Armorcast produced the following kits in 40K scale:
Imperial Reaver
Imperial Warhound
Baneblade
Shadowsword
Baneblade/Shadowsword combo kit
Super Detailed Baneblade
Eldar Tempest Grav Tank
Eldar Towering Destroyer Knight
Eldar Revenant Scout Titan
Eldar Phantom Titan
After the end of the GW license Armorcast did lots of resin scenery and picked up licenses for BattleTech and WarZone models. I sold Armorcast in 2007 and it continues successfully today at armorcast.com.
Backlash wrote: So have the earlier rumors of a run assault ability been shot down? Seems army wide abilities are still being held hush hush to me. Perhaps a sign were in for something interesting and new?
Nothing seems confirmed yet. Honestly, I tend to take that silence as meaning it's not in there (you'd think that'd be an important highlight in the battle report). You never know, though.
It's possible that's what onslaught could do. Or adrenal glands allow run and assault (along with furious charge) as it would explain why the point increase.
BeeCee wrote:Any indication as to what all is included in the $170 USD Tyranid Swarm box?
If Tyranids are cheaper, faster, and generally more nasty once in combat, I'm not so sure the assault after run is absolutely necessary.
Assault armies are going to be the toughest ones to get right in this edition. They have to be powerful, but not automatic or OP. There has to be elements in place to restrict certain things without making them mopey.
Demons are pretty successful right now, but I think that's because they can have some pretty dynamic shooting when they want. Oh, and all those invulnerable saves help.
I don't want Tyranids to just be a copy of Demons though.
Maybe there are some new army-wide rules we just haven't heard about yet. Pretty much every codex has come with surprises, even when people have them in hand and start spoiling them all over the internet.
Yeah, true. I *think* some of the rumormongers (the more recent, seemingly more trustworthy ones) have hinted that adrenals do more now. IIRC, the 2nd ed version of that biomorph allowed running and shooting.
Pretty shocked that there are no real changes to stealers or warriors. Based on other 6ed units (like daemonettes, spawn, etc) that there'd be some tweaks (stealers are so outclassed by daemonettes and seekers its not even funny). Hope there's some new synergy within the dex that makes them work or that the biomorphs were updated (like say fleshooks working like the DE grenade launcher as one example) but I am not holding my breath.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: By the way, who is Armorcast? I know they are a miniature company, but were they Citadel's predecessor or something?
Essentially Forge World's independent licensed predecessor. Before GW did any resin we (Armorcast) held licenses to produce 40K scale versions of many of he epic vehicles and critters. When it started, GW did not think there was a market for large resin stuff, but after three years of licenses ('96-'98) and the sales 30,000 resin kits, GW decided that perhaps there was a market after all and did not renew the Armorcast license when it came up for renewal.
I thought it was a couple years later that the first Forge World full vehicle models were produced, but it might have been less. Lexicanium says the company started in 1998, so would likely would have been in existence when the Armorcast license ended or shortly thereafter.
Armorcast produced the following kits in 40K scale:
Imperial Reaver
Imperial Warhound
Baneblade
Shadowsword
Baneblade/Shadowsword combo kit
Super Detailed Baneblade
Eldar Tempest Grav Tank
Eldar Towering Destroyer Knight
Eldar Revenant Scout Titan
Eldar Phantom Titan
After the end of the GW license Armorcast did lots of resin scenery and picked up licenses for BattleTech and WarZone models. I sold Armorcast in 2007 and it continues successfully today at armorcast.com.
Tim DuPertuis
That's interesting stuff. Did you or any of your co-workers or friends ever have any medical conditions from working with resin? I know most safety standards for companies were shot way up after the 80's, but maybe working with it so long? I know your supposed to wear at least a dust mask when working with it today. Anything you absolutely should know before you go converting todays resin models?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: By the way, who is Armorcast? I know they are a miniature company, but were they Citadel's predecessor or something?
Essentially Forge World's independent licensed predecessor. Before GW did any resin we (Armorcast) held licenses to produce 40K scale versions of many of he epic vehicles and critters. When it started, GW did not think there was a market for large resin stuff, but after three years of licenses ('96-'98) and the sales 30,000 resin kits, GW decided that perhaps there was a market after all and did not renew the Armorcast license when it came up for renewal.
I thought it was a couple years later that the first Forge World full vehicle models were produced, but it might have been less. Lexicanium says the company started in 1998, so would likely would have been in existence when the Armorcast license ended or shortly thereafter.
Armorcast produced the following kits in 40K scale:
Imperial Reaver
Imperial Warhound
Baneblade
Shadowsword
Baneblade/Shadowsword combo kit
Super Detailed Baneblade
Eldar Tempest Grav Tank
Eldar Towering Destroyer Knight
Eldar Revenant Scout Titan
Eldar Phantom Titan
After the end of the GW license Armorcast did lots of resin scenery and picked up licenses for BattleTech and WarZone models. I sold Armorcast in 2007 and it continues successfully today at armorcast.com.
Tim DuPertuis
That's interesting stuff. Did you or any of your co-workers or friends ever have any medical conditions from working with resin? I know most safety standards for companies were shot way up after the 80's, but maybe working with it so long? I know your supposed to wear at least a dust mask when working with it today. Anything you absolutely should know before you go converting todays resin models?
Well, any resin used by a legitimate manufacturer will essentially be inert, but even if there were health complications, working with resin in a commercial basis, dealing with the components of the resin before they've hardened, and doing so for weeks, months or years isn't really analogous to what one hobbyist exposes themselves to in a lifetime.
Just like how a baker can suffer severe health issues by being around flour particulates in the air for years, if proper safety procedures aren't followed.
Meanwhile, any news on that bizarre "having guns makes assault better, having assault weapons makes shooting better" mechanic that was referenced to in the last round of rumours?
That's interesting stuff. Did you or any of your co-workers or friends ever have any medical conditions from working with resin? I know most safety standards for companies were shot way up after the 80's, but maybe working with it so long? I know your supposed to wear at least a dust mask when working with it today. Anything you absolutely should know before you go converting todays resin models?
Polyurethane resin, like super glue, is cyanoacrylate based, so there can be issues similar to problems with super glue.
Once its hardened, it pretty much inert and does not cause problems except for possibly breathing in the dust.
We had a massive air evacuation system and supplied the casters with overpressure outside air coming in to hoods, so we did not have many problems. One guy had quit after half a day because he was having allergy problems with the unmixed resin. I already had eye sensitivity to super glue coming into it, but did not have any problems in the casting room.
Well, any resin used by a legitimate manufacturer will essentially be inert, but even if there were health complications, working with resin in a commercial basis, dealing with the components of the resin before they've hardened, and doing so for weeks, months or years isn't really analogous to what one hobbyist exposes themselves to in a lifetime.
Polyurethane resin is inert when set up, but is a Hazmat material when unmixed. Unless one is pouring resin in an unventilated area a dust mask when filing/sanding is really all that's needed.
tetrisphreak wrote: How cool would it be if the haruspex could swallow entire vehicles whole, like the Red Terror used to do to infantry? That would be awesome.
Though by the model it looks like it's modus operandi is to use it's claws of life to pry open tanks and then feed on the insides.
This picture was posted on the Tyranid Hive earlier today, and might shed some light on your question. Haven't seen it in this thread yet:
Looks more like he'll be snacking on infantry than on vehicles.
I'm curious about the wargear categories illuminated by the leaked codex entries. So far we see:
From that you can deduce that there will likely be "Advanced Bio-cannons" and "Advanced Bio-weapons" sections that separate things like Venom Cannons from Rupture Cannons, or Fleshborers from Fleshborer Hives, and so on. However, if their terminology was completely consistent, you might expect to see "Basic Melee bio-weapons" instead of what it actually says. I wonder if that means that all melee bio-weapons are in a single category. Warriors with Crushing Claws?
Backlash wrote: So have the earlier rumors of a run assault ability been shot down? Seems army wide abilities are still being held hush hush to me. Perhaps a sign were in for something interesting and new?
I have a feeling it might be a must fire overwatch at the first charging unit so you can bate fire with the little guys so your big bugs can get in to combat unharmed sort of a panic reaction from the charged unit due to the charging horde. I'm interested to see how the battle report turns out with it apparently being against tau.
Backlash wrote: So have the earlier rumors of a run assault ability been shot down? Seems army wide abilities are still being held hush hush to me. Perhaps a sign were in for something interesting and new?
I have a feeling it might be a must fire overwatch at the first charging unit so you can bate fire with the little guys so your big bugs can get in to combat unharmed sort of a panic reaction from the charged unit due to the charging horde. I'm interested to see how the battle report turns out with it apparently being against tau.
That's not a nid special rule, that's a main rulebook rule.
Well, you're not forced to overwatch, so if there's a unit of 3 gants 9" away from you declaring an assault, you can opt to not fire, watch them fail to get in, then overwatch the real threat 4" away. A bait rule like he mentioned would let you shoot those three useless guys and let your wrecking crew in unharmed.
See, the issue isn't that Genestealers have been denied good ways to get into combat, it's that even once they're there, they're very underwhelming for a dedicated assault unit. ...
I heartily agree.
Unfortunately, most SM players I run into expect to shoot Nids up at range and then feel entitled to beat us in CC. The amount of sulkiness when a brood of 'stealers win an assault is incredible, IME. They are fine with other Marines beating the snot out of them...just not Xenos.
That balance of deadliness in assault compared to vulnerability at range is what made 2nd Ed Nids, Space Hulk, and the Aliens movie fun. But it hasn't been there with Nids for quite some time. Heck, in 4th Edition my swarm was out shooting CWE.
Souleater wrote: That balance of deadliness in assault compared to vulnerability at range is what made 2nd Ed Nids, Space Hulk, and the Aliens movie fun. But it hasn't been there with Nids for quite some time. Heck, in 4th Edition my swarm was out shooting CWE.
I miss my fast and deadly Tyranids too. But that was a long time ago, and Daemons already seem to be comfortably parked in that niche now.
So Genestealers suck, and Warriors (unless there's a rule we don;t know about) appear to be Toughness 4 and terrible (again). Can we go three for three and have Lictors be useless yet again?
Daemons also seem to fill the attack-from-all-angles niche better than Tyranids.
Then again, with half the armies in the game running around with Power Armor, there's no reason why Daemons and Tyranids both can't share the fast-and-deadly bodies army archetype.
Absolutionis wrote: Daemons also seem to fill the attack-from-all-angles niche better than Tyranids.
Then again, with half the armies in the game running around with Power Armor, there's no reason why Daemons and Tyranids both can't share the fast-and-deadly bodies army archetype.
I dunno, I think both should be. Daemons are quite resilient, fast and have deep strike along with the instability warp stuff. Nids are shooty but there's no reason they couldn't also be fast assault too. Every assault unit kinda needs to be fast nowadays because of so many jump/jet pack units flying around. Nids are certainly way more swarmy than Daemons, so fit a good niche with "runs over dead comrades to murder you".
H.B.M.C. wrote: So Genestealers suck, and Warriors (unless there's a rule we don;t know about) appear to be Toughness 4 and terrible (again). Can we go three for three and have Lictors be useless yet again?
If what they did to Daemons is anything to go by, I doubt Warriors will get anything like Eternal Warrior. Bloodcrushers went from T:5 to T:4, lost Eternal Warrior and had their 3+ Armor Save changed to a 6+. Granted they have a 5++, but they'll double out to all the same things that make Warriors "Terrible". Which is really too bad because I love the Bloodcrusher models, but I can't bring myself to run them anymore.
We can still hold out for some of the Biomorphs in understanding whether Warriors and Genestealers got better.
For instance, Warriors could get access to stronger heavy weapons. Also, Deathspitters could be super awesome in the new book.
The Broodlord is allowed to take all the Biomorphs from the list in their entry. If this includes Flesh Hooks, he could give his unit Assault Grenades, which would be awesome. There may also be some sort of Stealth upgrade or Overwatch counter in that list that the Broodlord could confer on his unit.
tetrisphreak wrote: How cool would it be if the haruspex could swallow entire vehicles whole, like the Red Terror used to do to infantry? That would be awesome.
Though by the model it looks like it's modus operandi is to use it's claws of life to pry open tanks and then feed on the insides.
This picture was posted on the Tyranid Hive earlier today, and might shed some light on your question. Haven't seen it in this thread yet:
Looks more like he'll be snacking on infantry than on vehicles.
I'm curious about the wargear categories illuminated by the leaked codex entries. So far we see:
From that you can deduce that there will likely be "Advanced Bio-cannons" and "Advanced Bio-weapons" sections that separate things like Venom Cannons from Rupture Cannons, or Fleshborers from Fleshborer Hives, and so on. However, if their terminology was completely consistent, you might expect to see "Basic Melee bio-weapons" instead of what it actually says. I wonder if that means that all melee bio-weapons are in a single category. Warriors with Crushing Claws?
Yep, was posted on the last page. I doubt warriors will have access to crushing claws, but I don't know. It was mentioned that there will be "Rare Biomorphs" and one-per-army-type biomorphs as well, which they may be under along with other Carnifex-level weapons.
Absolutionis wrote: Daemons also seem to fill the attack-from-all-angles niche better than Tyranids.
On the other hand, Daemons appear to be the only army in 40K and Fantasy that will continue to buck the trend for nice, large, multi-pose plastic kits that tower over the rest of the army.
I suppose there just isn't really a good concept for a "larger" HQ-type-o-Daemon out there that would make a nice, large plastic-kit that GW seems so fond of making for every other faction they have
Tyranids have how many super-sized plastic kits now?
On the other hand, Daemons appear to be the only army in 40K and Fantasy that will continue to buck the trend for nice, large, multi-pose plastic kits that tower over the rest of the army.
I suppose there just isn't really a good concept for a "larger" HQ-type-o-Daemon out there that would make a nice, large plastic-kit that GW seems so fond of making for every other faction they have
Plenty of rumors of plastic greater demons coming...
H.B.M.C. wrote: So Genestealers suck, and Warriors (unless there's a rule we don;t know about) appear to be Toughness 4 and terrible (again). Can we go three for three and have Lictors be useless yet again?
It depends what you mean by useless. If GW did not include them in the codex, then they will be useless. Otherwise, they will just be terrible.
GW always goes through cycles. The xenos had a few good codicies, and now it appears it is time for bad xeno codicies again. Speaking of cycles, it seems that GW is going back to squatting stuff again. It has been a while since they wrote units out of books. Oh for the days of halflings and war wagons.
Absolutionis wrote: Daemons also seem to fill the attack-from-all-angles niche better than Tyranids.
I'd rather Tyranids do what they do in the fluff best - overwhelming force. The main imagery of Tyranids is a massive, massive, uncountable wave to horrible biological weaponised monsters crashing into any form of defense. The 'attack from all angle' part is in addition to their main style of attack. If they get the first one right for once, I'll forgive any lack in additional attack styles.
Zweischneid wrote: On the other hand, Daemons appear to be the only army in 40K and Fantasy that will continue to buck the trend for nice, large, multi-pose plastic kits that tower over the rest of the army.
H.B.M.C. wrote: So Genestealers suck, and Warriors (unless there's a rule we don;t know about) appear to be Toughness 4 and terrible (again). Can we go three for three and have Lictors be useless yet again?
I think the rumour was that you can only snap fire at Lictors for one turn after they came into play. That and their improved cover saves make them very resistant to all shooting. I guess the only possible problems that might again manifest themselves are the points cost and the fact that they don't actually do much in close combat even if they get there.
I wouldn't be surprised if Stealers and Warriors suck balls as the army might still be competitive in some Zilla format, but naturally it would be disappointing if they still couldn't fix the T4-bad armour save-no invulnerable save-multiwound model problem. Both the T4 eternal warrior or T5 standard variants would work as long as the points cost is balanced -- Either way they'd be playable maybe even highly competitive.
spaceelf wrote: Speaking of cycles, it seems that GW is going back to squatting stuff again. It has been a while since they wrote units out of books. Oh for the days of halflings and war wagons.
This was always going to happen after the chapterhouse lawsuit. GW are scared now that any unit lacking a model they can potentially lose the model rights on (especially if they stick to art for the model that third parties did as well), so now anything they can't produce a model for won't be in the book.
Tyranids have a decent count of models GW don't produce. Parasite, Doom of Malan'tai, Mycetic Spores, Ymgarl Genestealers (technically, they can be made with the Genestealer kit), Tyranid Primes, and I'm probably forgetting one or two. Forgeworld help with Shrikes and Sky Slashers, but that didn't stop third parties making Warrior wings. Add to that weapon options with no kit like Tyrant Guard lashwhip/bonesword, and GW had a lot of new kits to release for just existing units, and GW won't release a new book without new units as well. Some were going to get left out, and those that got left out were going to get cut.
Regarding the likes of the Parasite and Doom, it's not uncommon for Tyranids. GW goes in cycles with Tyranids as well. 2nd edition had no special characters. 3rd edition did, and had unit mutations. 4th edition didn't, and brought in biomorph mutability. 5th cut biomorph mutability, and brought back special characters. 6th was due to lose special characters (except the Swarmlord since it's in plastic).
Unless they've been around since Epic, in which case they saw an Exocrine.
I think the majority will see it as a massive pyrovore... I sure did.
That would have to mean the majority are players who have only been here for a few years.
Most people familiar with an Exocrine from Epic (like GW, for instance), immediately saw that for what it was. GW gave us an Exocrine to give us an Exocrine, not a giant Pyrovore. They've merely updated the aesthetic to fit in line with the (better) overall look of the contemporary 'nids.
tetrisphreak wrote: How cool would it be if the haruspex could swallow entire vehicles whole, like the Red Terror used to do to infantry? That would be awesome.
Though by the model it looks like it's modus operandi is to use it's claws of life to pry open tanks and then feed on the insides.
This picture was posted on the Tyranid Hive earlier today, and might shed some light on your question. Haven't seen it in this thread yet:
Looks more like he'll be snacking on infantry than on vehicles.
I'm curious about the wargear categories illuminated by the leaked codex entries. So far we see:
From that you can deduce that there will likely be "Advanced Bio-cannons" and "Advanced Bio-weapons" sections that separate things like Venom Cannons from Rupture Cannons, or Fleshborers from Fleshborer Hives, and so on. However, if their terminology was completely consistent, you might expect to see "Basic Melee bio-weapons" instead of what it actually says. I wonder if that means that all melee bio-weapons are in a single category. Warriors with Crushing Claws?
Yep, was posted on the last page. I doubt warriors will have access to crushing claws, but I don't know. It was mentioned that there will be "Rare Biomorphs" and one-per-army-type biomorphs as well, which they may be under along with other Carnifex-level weapons.
What a horrible way to go, eh? He may have known no fear before that moment...
spaceelf wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote: So Genestealers suck, and Warriors (unless there's a rule we don;t know about) appear to be Toughness 4 and terrible (again). Can we go three for three and have Lictors be useless yet again?
It depends what you mean by useless. If GW did not include them in the codex, then they will be useless. Otherwise, they will just be terrible.
GW always goes through cycles. The xenos had a few good codicies, and now it appears it is time for bad xeno codicies again. Speaking of cycles, it seems that GW is going back to squatting stuff again. It has been a while since they wrote units out of books. Oh for the days of halflings and war wagons.
Bad Xenos codices? Because Eldar, Necrons, and Tau aren't dominating tournaments or anything...
1 Box of Warriors (I own none, and will buy another if the codex is nice to them)
2 Harpy/Crone (I feel like they + a fly Tyrant will end up being the tourny list and if not I still enjoy fliers)
1 Exocrine/Haruspex (will buy another in case they both rule)
1 Hive/Tyrant Guard (I only own two guard and two Tyrant guard, so I can divy these up)
I currently have 40 gargoyles and am hoping Hormagants do not prove to be their equal, if they are I will get some of them later.
My wife gets a Riptide and Commander to add to her eldar force, should keep things fair at home.
I'm not looking forward to the painting. I cant play with an unpainted model. So it looks like a solid week of MC painting upon release.
1 Box of Warriors (I own none, and will buy another if the codex is nice to them)
2 Harpy/Crone (I feel like they + a fly Tyrant will end up being the tourny list and if not I still enjoy fliers)
1 Exocrine/Haruspex (will buy another in case they both rule)
1 Hive/Tyrant Guard (I only own two guard and two Tyrant guard, so I can divy these up)
I currently have 40 gargoyles and am hoping Hormagants do not prove to be their equal, if they are I will get some of them later.
My wife gets a Riptide and Commander to add to her eldar force, should keep things fair at home.
I'm not looking forward to the painting. I cant play with an unpainted model. So it looks like a solid week of MC painting upon release.
My army is pretty much where I want it, so I'm buying stuff I think looks cool. My group hasn't run with flyers yet either, so it makes avoiding the Harpy easier. I have a brood of 2 Hive Guard and a brood of 2 Zoanthropes, so I'll stick to buying another old Hive Guard and another Zoanthrope to fill those out later.
Codex
2x Exocrine/Haruspex (make 1 of each)
1x Warriors (I have 3 without arms right now, so I'll use the spares in the box to fit out those)
What I like most about this release is it nearly fills out the old biotanks from Epic. Trygon, Exocrine, Haruspex, Malefactor (Tervigon), Dacylis (no model). This is exactly what I hoped they'd do. The lack of a Dactylis is annoying, but at least I can ignore the Tyrannofex and pretend it never was, and just go with the Exocrine.
I don't go back as far as you guys, but I do remember tooled-up Carnifexes wrecking face and swarms of Genestealers/Broodlord just straight up eating things. Two books ago, if I recall, when I first got into 40k.
I don't want to be a doom-and-gloom naysayer, and many people on here after seeing leaked Codex pages, are already deciding on units. But I mean, we could be surprised. I don't recall if anyone predicted how surprisingly powerful Coteaz + Troop Inquisitor Retinues could be before the GK Codex, did they? It was like a hidden gem in the Codex. Not like the GK needed more powerful options, but you know. Trying to make a point. There might be something pretty awesome that we don't know about.
With that said, though, I will also admit that things look pretty grim at the moment with things we have confirmed. Tervigons needing mandatory 30 Gants, no Pod, Warriors still dying to Krak Missiles, Genestealers being a cracked glass cannon... I so badly want this Codex to be at least mid-tier. I wait to see what the big beasties/flyers really do, (I'm particularly curious about the Haruspex "eating" things) and the updates to some of the less viable options, Pyrovores, Venomthropes, Lictors, etc... but I mean if we can be serious, they will probably be almost the exact same as last Codex. I just don't see them drastically changing anything. And big beasties, even with their good save/toughness/high Wounds... They can just die to massed fire/good sniper rolls/etc. Nidzilla has its own problems and I don't want to run it, to be honest.
I'm REALLY hoping for nasty Hormagaunts again. I love those little gribblies so much more than Termagants. If I can run Hormagaunts and a Carnifex again, Screamer-Killer maybe, I'll be pretty happy. I like the idea of Tyranids being an intergalactic locust swarm.
Tl;dr: We wait with bated breath for our beloved 'Nids, Warriors and Genestealers do not a success or failure make.
I still bring him in occasionally, out of pity. Occasionally he acid sprays a group of Dire Avengers and all is well.
A year ago before my wife and I started playing, I would have never imagined caring this much about a book of rules for vastly overpriced plastic bug miniatures. But I do. : /
Until Genestealers return to their former glory of not only just having a 4+, but also being able to annihilate stuff in assault, they will remain unplayable. It's a sign of how bad assault is in 40k that to match their Space Hulk days genestealers would need 10 attacks EACH to regain their old chance to kill TEQ. I mean, think of what is viable in assault at the moment and tell me which of those hasn't got either a 2++ rerollable+at least 12" move, the potential for an immediate first turn assault or is an MC. Sorry for the rant, but it's just absurd.
I have heard these three rumors
1. Drop in points
2. +1 A and +1 WS 3. They get the "suprise" rule so only snap shots at them the turn they arrive.
Would any of these make them worth while you rekon?
spaceelf wrote: Speaking of cycles, it seems that GW is going back to squatting stuff again. It has been a while since they wrote units out of books. Oh for the days of halflings and war wagons.
Special characters, one unit without a model, and possibly Ymgarls which were just a headswap on normal Genestealers. And it is far from the first time a few units/characters were dropped from a book.
Pods can join Pariahs, and Doom and Parasite can join Macharius, Nazdreg, Gaunt, Schaffer, Cypher, Xavier, Doomrider, Red Terror, Namaan...
Eyjio wrote: Until Genestealers return to their former glory of not only just having a 4+, but also being able to annihilate stuff in assault, they will remain unplayable. It's a sign of how bad assault is in 40k that to match their Space Hulk days genestealers would need 10 attacks EACH to regain their old chance to kill TEQ. I mean, think of what is viable in assault at the moment and tell me which of those hasn't got either a 2++ rerollable+at least 12" move, the potential for an immediate first turn assault or is an MC. Sorry for the rant, but it's just absurd.
I have heard these three rumors
1. Drop in points
2. +1 A and +1 WS 3. They get the "suprise" rule so only snap shots at them the turn they arrive.
Would any of these make them worth while you rekon?
They would, but apparently they stay largely the same.
Brassangel, I've been playing 40k since Epic was around and I had no idea what an Exocrine was, I think you'd be surprised at how many 40k players haven't played Epic. There are a lot of younger players now too.
Noctem wrote: Brassangel, I've been playing 40k since Epic was around and I had no idea what an Exocrine was, I think you'd be surprised at how many 40k players haven't played Epic. There are a lot of younger players now too.
Damn I played Epic when it was Space Marine, with Squat Cyclops, Land Trains and Armoured Airships and I had no idea what an exocrine was.
Eyjio wrote: Until Genestealers return to their former glory of not only just having a 4+, but also being able to annihilate stuff in assault, they will remain unplayable. It's a sign of how bad assault is in 40k that to match their Space Hulk days genestealers would need 10 attacks EACH to regain their old chance to kill TEQ. I mean, think of what is viable in assault at the moment and tell me which of those hasn't got either a 2++ rerollable+at least 12" move, the potential for an immediate first turn assault or is an MC. Sorry for the rant, but it's just absurd.
I have heard these three rumors
1. Drop in points
2. +1 A and +1 WS 3. They get the "suprise" rule so only snap shots at them the turn they arrive.
Would any of these make them worth while you rekon?
They would, but apparently they stay largely the same.
Someone on 4chan posted up one of those small pictures of the codex every white dwarf has and it had warrior and genestealer stats on it. Assuming it was legit (and it sure seems legit) there's no change in base cost, Attack, WS (all ths stats are as now) or options for genestealers. There's no new rule listed. Broodlord gets the Horror psychic power, no choice or upgrade in that regard. The only unknown for stealers is what the biomorphs do now and whether the broodlord is worthwhile from the Horror being good or his access to biomorph wargear.
Noctem wrote: Brassangel, I've been playing 40k since Epic was around and I had no idea what an Exocrine was, I think you'd be surprised at how many 40k players haven't played Epic. There are a lot of younger players now too.
Well sure, but he did say 'most people' who played Epic. I played Epic and have no idea what the Eldar Knights were, I just knew they had Knights. But he is correct - a lot of Tyranid players know what the Exocrine is, and there was a lot of annoyance that the names Malefactor and Exocrine were not used for the Tervigon and Tyrannofex.
The funny thing is, the Biovore and Pyrovore actually have their aesthetic roots in the Exocrine (large back mounted gun) rather than the units roots which were in the Dactylis (the Biovore was made to bring Dactylis gameplay of long range artillery into 2nd edition Tyranids for 40k, and the Pyrovore is obviously an offshoot of the Biovore).
So even people saying 'that looks like a big Biovore' aren't wrong, and niether are people who say 'that looks like an Exocrine', because the Biovore was aesthetically a small Exocrine, even though it was mechanically a small Dactylis. But the old timers who know what an Exocrine is are going to be the ones correcting younger gamers, because they know where the look came from.
This has me thinking though, if the new Exocrine is going to be mechanically more like a Dactylis - long range indirect fire, while the Tyrannofex will remain mechanically an Exocrine - long range direct fire.
Im curious as to what is going to set the new units apart from existing units. If we are getting a long range, indirect fire unit. What is going to set t apart from biovores. If we are getting a new "Big" direct gun, what sets it apart from the Tfex? 40K is a game of gimmicks. You take units for the next big thing that comes along. The special rules that sets the new units apart from the existing ones will determine their usefulness for the duration of the codex existence.
Backlash wrote: Im curious as to what is going to set the new units apart from existing units. If we are getting a long range, indirect fire unit. What is going to set t apart from biovores. If we are getting a new "Big" direct gun, what sets it apart from the Tfex? 40K is a game of gimmicks. You take units for the next big thing that comes along. The special rules that sets the new units apart from the existing ones will determine their usefulness for the duration of the codex existence.
winterman wrote: Someone on 4chan posted up one of those small pictures of the codex every white dwarf has and it had warrior and genestealer stats on it. Assuming it was legit (and it sure seems legit) there's no change in base cost, Attack, WS (all ths stats are as now) or options for genestealers. There's no new rule listed. Broodlord gets the Horror psychic power, no choice or upgrade in that regard. The only unknown for stealers is what the biomorphs do now and whether the broodlord is worthwhile from the Horror being good or his access to biomorph wargear.
ahh ok.
Hrmz.... it could all change based on those two things, it wouldn't take toooooo much to make them good (give them shred for example)
Backlash wrote: Im curious as to what is going to set the new units apart from existing units. If we are getting a long range, indirect fire unit. What is going to set t apart from biovores. If we are getting a new "Big" direct gun, what sets it apart from the Tfex? 40K is a game of gimmicks. You take units for the next big thing that comes along. The special rules that sets the new units apart from the existing ones will determine their usefulness for the duration of the codex existence.
The Carnifex is actually a Dreadnought. It's no use trying to classify Tyranid MCs as tanks, since they're all statistically very similar to each other but have vastly different roles, and some even different roles to vehicles in other armies.
It's looking like:
Spoiler:
Exocrine - indirect fire Tyrannofex - direct fire Tervigon - transport (after a fashion) Haruspex - melee linebreaker Trygon - flanking brawler Mawloc - deep striking interference Dreadnought - jack of all trades dreadnought Hive Tyrant - psychic jack of all trades dreadnought Harpy - anti tank flyer Crone - anti infantry flyer
Backlash wrote: Im curious as to what is going to set the new units apart from existing units. If we are getting a long range, indirect fire unit. What is going to set t apart from biovores. If we are getting a new "Big" direct gun, what sets it apart from the Tfex? 40K is a game of gimmicks. You take units for the next big thing that comes along. The special rules that sets the new units apart from the existing ones will determine their usefulness for the duration of the codex existence.
The Carnifex is actually a Dreadnought. It's no use trying to classify Tyranid MCs as tanks, since they're all statistically very similar to each other but have vastly different roles, and some even different roles to vehicles in other armies.
It's looking like:
Spoiler:
Exocrine - indirect fire
Tyrannofex - direct fire
Tervigon - transport (after a fashion)
Haruspex - melee linebreaker
Trygon - flanking brawler
Mawloc - deep striking interference
Dreadnought - jack of all trades dreadnought
Hive Tyrant - psychic jack of all trades dreadnought
Harpy - anti tank flyer
Crone - anti infantry flyer
I didn't directly mean 40k terminology when I say "tank" and "artillery", but your classification works just as well. Might make these changes though-
Spoiler:
Exocrine - indirect fire(Heavy Infantry/Vehicles) Biovore-indirect fire(Light Infantry) Tyrannofex - direct fire
Tervigon - transport (after a fashion)
Haruspex - melee linebreaker
Trygon - flanking brawler
Mawloc - deep striking interference
Dreadnought - jack of all trades dreadnought
Hive Tyrant - psychic jack of all trades dreadnought
Harpy - anti tank flyer
Crone - anti infantry flyer
Backlash wrote: Im curious as to what is going to set the new units apart from existing units. If we are getting a long range, indirect fire unit. What is going to set t apart from biovores. If we are getting a new "Big" direct gun, what sets it apart from the Tfex? 40K is a game of gimmicks. You take units for the next big thing that comes along. The special rules that sets the new units apart from the existing ones will determine their usefulness for the duration of the codex existence.
The Carnifex is actually a Dreadnought. It's no use trying to classify Tyranid MCs as tanks, since they're all statistically very similar to each other but have vastly different roles, and some even different roles to vehicles in other armies.
It's looking like:
Spoiler:
Exocrine - indirect fire
Tyrannofex - direct fire
Tervigon - transport (after a fashion)
Haruspex - melee linebreaker
Trygon - flanking brawler
Mawloc - deep striking interference
Dreadnought - jack of all trades dreadnought
Hive Tyrant - psychic jack of all trades dreadnought
Harpy - anti tank flyer
Crone - anti infantry flyer
I would switch the flyers around if I were you. The Crone has four anti-air missiles and a Strength 8 Vector Strike, though it does have a flame template with an unknown profile (probably S6 AP4 Torrent). The Harpy, on the other hand, appears to still drop Spore Mines and has either a twin-linked Stranglethorn Cannon or twin-linked Heavy Venom Cannon, much like its' previous incarnation (albeit cheaper). It sounds more like the Harpy is the 'bomber' mostly for anti-infantry and the Crone is the 'fighter' with a more versatile weapon set.
timd wrote:Hmmm, would not be hard to use a T-fex as a "counts as" Exocrine.... Especially if the T-Fex stays/becomes even less useful than it is now.
T
The Tyrannofex with a Rupture Cannon has dropped 60 points. Something tells me they are going to be one of the most improved units in the codex for that reason alone, even if they are identical otherwise.
The problem with the Genestealers isn't the unit itself, but the delivery method. If there is something in the Codex (or in a supplement) that lets them reach safely CC, then they are going to be worth it.
No, the problem with genestealers is you're paying MEQ prices for something with no utility. Here's some math hammer for you:
10 Genestealers VS 10 MEQ:
Overwatch (10 bolters) : 20 S4 AP5 at BS1 = 5/3 wounds
9 Genestealers attack: 27 S4 rending attacks at WS6 = 5 wounds
5 MEQ attack: 5 S4 attacks at WS4 = 5/6 wounds
So, if genestealers take no casualties, the marines are charged, out of terrain and if all rolls are average, genestealers kill half the unit. Marines then autopass and in the next round of combat, genestealers do ~1.9 more wounds, the MEQ do 0.5 wounds. The MEQ lose on the next round of combat, leaving the stealers free in the MEQ players turn to shoot at them.
Let's look at 5 assault Terminators VS 14 genestealers to reenact Space Hulk.
Overwatch: 10 S4 AP5 at BS1 = 5/6 wound
9 genestealers attack: 27 S4 rending attacks at WS6 = 3 wounds
2 TEQ attack: 4 S8 AP2 attacks at WS4 = 5/3 wounds
Seems decent, yeah? Well... no, not at all. See, let's look at ONE round of shooting resolved against these guys. That's 10 S4 AP5 at BS4 = 10/3 - you lose over 42 points per turn. Against one of the most common, most used guns in the game, they die like rats. It's like losing 3 marines to bolters - kinda dumb.
Now let's look at what happens if there IS terrain to charge through, but they still take absolutely no wounds from shooting somehow:
10 vs 10 MEQ:
Overwatch (10 bolters) : 20 S4 AP5 at BS1 = 5/3 wounds
10 MEQ attack: 10 S4 attacks at WS4 = 5/3 wounds
7 genestealers attack: 21 S4 rending attacks at WS6 = 35/9 (~4) wounds
Genestealers here almost tie with MEQ. On the charge. Yeah.
14 vs 5 TEQ:
Overwatch: 10 S4 AP5 at BS1 = 5/6 wound
9 genestealers attack: 27 S4 rending attacks at WS6 = 3 wounds
5 TEQ attack at the same time: 10 S8 AP2 attacks at WS4 = 25/6 wounds (~4)
Here, on the charge, they lose. Not point for point, but they actually lose combat. 5 will die compared to 3 TEQ. It's dumb.
See, the issue isn't that Genestealers have been denied good ways to get into combat, it's that even once they're there, they're very underwhelming for a dedicated assault unit. As in, they're trash. If they had a rule which just put them in combat in the first turn, that's pretty much the only time they'd be usable (and then they'd be broken as you could tie up everything with an insta-tarpit). Tau will wipe them. Eldar will wipe them. Necrons will wipe them. Daemons easily beat them in combat. Even MEQ armies destroy them. They are good against nothing unless they miraculously get into combat completely unscathed and even then they're unable to do a massive amount of damage.
I hammer this comparison a lot but that's because I think it should hold true - compare it to Space Hulk. In Space Hulk, a genestealers chance to die per resolved storm bolter shot is 11/36. In 40k, it's 20/36, almost twice as high. In Space Hulk, a Genestealer has really quite a low chance to die in assault, and a very high chance to kill outright (I mean, it's like 70% just to kill, with almost no chance to die). In 40k, it has a 217/729 chance, or ~30%. TEQ then has a 95/144 or ~66% to kill. This is really, really stupid when genestealers can ONLY assault.
Until Genestealers return to their former glory of not only just having a 4+, but also being able to annihilate stuff in assault, they will remain unplayable. It's a sign of how bad assault is in 40k that to match their Space Hulk days genestealers would need 10 attacks EACH to regain their old chance to kill TEQ. I mean, think of what is viable in assault at the moment and tell me which of those hasn't got either a 2++ rerollable+at least 12" move, the potential for an immediate first turn assault or is an MC. Sorry for the rant, but it's just absurd.
TL;DR genestealers are weak, bad assault only units in an edition where assault is incredibly underpowered and hard to get into anyway.
Could it be that they are changing what the weapons do? Like the Eldar with shuriken cats?
The leak shows scything talons for 4 points. It makes no sense to do this if they don't do something new. Maybe rending claws do something new too in addition to rending. Maybe for ever 6 rolled to hit they can roll an additional attack or they gain shred and rend.
There is no way to no for sure but if they changed scything talons (and it looks like they did) they may have changed rending claws too.
Backlash wrote: Im curious as to what is going to set the new units apart from existing units. If we are getting a long range, indirect fire unit. What is going to set t apart from biovores. If we are getting a new "Big" direct gun, what sets it apart from the Tfex? 40K is a game of gimmicks. You take units for the next big thing that comes along. The special rules that sets the new units apart from the existing ones will determine their usefulness for the duration of the codex existence.
The Carnifex is actually a Dreadnought. It's no use trying to classify Tyranid MCs as tanks, since they're all statistically very similar to each other but have vastly different roles, and some even different roles to vehicles in other armies.
It's looking like:
Spoiler:
Exocrine - indirect fire
Tyrannofex - direct fire
Tervigon - transport (after a fashion)
Haruspex - melee linebreaker
Trygon - flanking brawler
Mawloc - deep striking interference
Dreadnought - jack of all trades dreadnought
Hive Tyrant - psychic jack of all trades dreadnought
Harpy - anti tank flyer
Crone - anti infantry flyer
I didn't directly mean 40k terminology when I say "tank" and "artillery", but your classification works just as well. Might make these changes though-
Spoiler:
Exocrine - indirect fire(Heavy Infantry/Vehicles) Biovore-indirect fire(Light Infantry) Tyrannofex - direct fire
Tervigon - transport (after a fashion)
Haruspex - melee linebreaker
Trygon - flanking brawler
Mawloc - deep striking interference
Dreadnought - jack of all trades dreadnought
Hive Tyrant - psychic jack of all trades dreadnought
Harpy - anti tank flyer
Crone - anti infantry flyer
I was leaving the Biovore out because I was only talking about monstrous creatures. If we start putting in everything else, the list gets looooooong.
This is my theory on why Scything Talons cost 4 points for Genestealers.
1) Scything Talons have been changed to give re-rolls to hit on all attacks.
2) Tyranids lost the "models that have more than one melee weapon don't get bonus attacks for two or more melee weapons" special rule.
3) Despite the 2nd point, Tyranid melee weapons still 'combine' with one another.
This would lead to the 4 points paying for re-rolling all failed to hit rolls in close combat, as well as giving the Genestealers 3 attacks each base due to having both Scything Talons and Rending Claws.
New Tyrant Guards look awful, everything else looks good except Haruspex. For an APC unit it just looks awkward. The design is much more suited to some kind of plasma-shooting beast or something.
Harriticus wrote: New Tyrant Guards look awful, everything else looks good except Haruspex. For an APC unit it just looks awkward. The design is much more suited to some kind of plasma-shooting beast or something.
I hate to request it, but can we keep the "my theory" posts either out of the thread, or in huge caps something that says "THIS IS NOT A RUMOR- I AM THEORIZING" etc.
Its just a sincere, polite request, and if anyone is offended by it, that is not my intent.
The reason I ask to not do it, is well, clutter (I think we have something like 1 rumor in the last two pages).
However, I do think that some speculation is a good thing - but due to various reasons a lot of speculation often becomes "new rumors' or "I heard..." because people just don't read well.
I have seen in many threads (this board, and others...) where off hand comments or speculative comments or just plain wishlisting gets picked up as new information.
I am very excited for the new codex - I have tons of bugs (and a lot un-built, waiting for the new book) and can't wait to field them.
I will be sad if some units do get removed, as I have made conversions and scratchbuilds for most of them.
Caederes wrote: This is my theory on why Scything Talons cost 4 points for Genestealers.
1) Scything Talons have been changed to give re-rolls to hit on all attacks.
2) Tyranids lost the "models that have more than one melee weapon don't get bonus attacks for two or more melee weapons" special rule.
3) Despite the 2nd point, Tyranid melee weapons still 'combine' with one another.
This would lead to the 4 points paying for re-rolling all failed to hit rolls in close combat, as well as giving the Genestealers 3 attacks each base due to having both Scything Talons and Rending Claws.
Just a theory.
I like it.
The only thing I would change is that Scything Talons confer shred instead of re-rolls to hit. Rending + Shred + Bonus attack for extra CC weapon = win. You are going to be re-rolling more dice when you roll to wound rather then when you roll to hit, would prefer the re-roll then.
4 attacks on the charge, 3+ to hit with a 4+ re-roll to wound and rending...
Caederes wrote: This is my theory on why Scything Talons cost 4 points for Genestealers.
1) Scything Talons have been changed to give re-rolls to hit on all attacks.
2) Tyranids lost the "models that have more than one melee weapon don't get bonus attacks for two or more melee weapons" special rule.
3) Despite the 2nd point, Tyranid melee weapons still 'combine' with one another.
This would lead to the 4 points paying for re-rolling all failed to hit rolls in close combat, as well as giving the Genestealers 3 attacks each base due to having both Scything Talons and Rending Claws.
Just a theory.
I like it.
The only thing I would change is that Scything Talons confer shred instead of re-rolls to hit. Rending + Shred + Bonus attack for extra CC weapon = win. You are going to be re-rolling more dice when you roll to wound rather then when you roll to hit, would prefer the re-roll then.
4 attacks on the charge, 3+ to hit with a 4+ re-roll to wound and rending...
This is of course what I want to happen!!
But a re-roll to wound would make Toxin sacs against anything T4 or lower pointless, which would discourage you from buying them. When really those high initiative, high volume, rending attacks with poison will be great for taking down Monsterous creatures. Especially win scything talons for complete re-rolls.
OT, has anything more been picked up about Old One Eye, from the sounds of it he has had quite a boost in the White Dwarf battle report.
Eldercaveman wrote: But a re-roll to wound would make Toxin sacs against anything T4 or lower pointless, which would discourage you from buying them. When really those high initiative, high volume, rending attacks with poison will be great for taking down Monsterous creatures. Especially win scything talons for complete re-rolls.
OT, has anything more been picked up about Old One Eye, from the sounds of it he has had quite a boost in the White Dwarf battle report.
We know two things for sure about Old One Eye from the White Dwarf;
1) He is 220 points, or 40 points cheaper than he used to be.
2) He "regenerates wounds like crazy".
The second one leads me to believe he can take an It Will Not Die roll for each wound he has suffered, not just one per turn, and gets them on a 4+ or 3+ or something like that. Probably has five or six wounds as well. Something like that would actually justify him still being 100 points more than a stock Carnifex.
man it looks like Nids are finally getting a proper release.
(most of the new covers I haven't been a fan of)
