Eldercaveman wrote: But a re-roll to wound would make Toxin sacs against anything T4 or lower pointless, which would discourage you from buying them. When really those high initiative, high volume, rending attacks with poison will be great for taking down Monsterous creatures. Especially win scything talons for complete re-rolls.
OT, has anything more been picked up about Old One Eye, from the sounds of it he has had quite a boost in the White Dwarf battle report.
We know two things for sure about Old One Eye from the White Dwarf;
1) He is 220 points, or 40 points cheaper than he used to be.
2) He "regenerates wounds like crazy".
The second one leads me to believe he can take an It Will Not Die roll for each wound he has suffered, not just one per turn, and gets them on a 4+ or 3+ or something like that. Probably has five or six wounds as well. Something like that would actually justify him still being 100 points more than a stock Carnifex.
I'd love to have a reason to convert me one but with my limited time I can't justify big projects that won't see table time sadly.
To be fair, he could well end up being a star. However, from what we know, two stock Carnifexes are about the same points as Old One Eye. At least it sounds like they actually gave him some good rules, and that points drop is still big.
Anonymous source over at Faeit212 wrote:One kit makes up both the Harpy and the Hive Crone
The model is larger than any other flyer we have for from GW
The Harpy can be labelled as a bomber and comes with a stranglethorn cannon or heavy venom cannon, and can drop biological spore bombs (3 choices).
The Hive Crone is meant to take on air targets with its claws, and comes with drool cannon, that spits digestive acid onto its foes. On the bottom of the wings the Hive Crone comes with 4 tentaclides (missiles) that are used to take down aircraft.
And over there they make a big fuss about Old One Eye being included in the "new" Carnifex kit. I don't understand it, because there already IS an Old One Eye head in the kit, sometimes called the regeneration biomorph head but having only one eye.
Eldercaveman wrote: But a re-roll to wound would make Toxin sacs against anything T4 or lower pointless, which would discourage you from buying them. When really those high initiative, high volume, rending attacks with poison will be great for taking down Monsterous creatures. Especially win scything talons for complete re-rolls.
OT, has anything more been picked up about Old One Eye, from the sounds of it he has had quite a boost in the White Dwarf battle report.
We know two things for sure about Old One Eye from the White Dwarf;
1) He is 220 points, or 40 points cheaper than he used to be.
2) He "regenerates wounds like crazy".
The second one leads me to believe he can take an It Will Not Die roll for each wound he has suffered, not just one per turn, and gets them on a 4+ or 3+ or something like that. Probably has five or six wounds as well. Something like that would actually justify him still being 100 points more than a stock Carnifex.
I'd love to have a reason to convert me one but with my limited time I can't justify big projects that won't see table time sadly.
He's not a big project. The stock Carnifex kit comes with Crushing Claws and a Regeration head.
Redemption wrote: No, it's supposedly by the 'Design Team', like the recent 40k supplements.
They got annoyed by Ward hate, and want to redirect all the hate from actual people toward a vague non-personal entity.
Yeah, but when the first appearance of the Hentaispex is devouring a Shrine world of Sisters of Battle, we'll know.
We'll know.
On-topic, did the WD battle report showcase Hormagaunts at all? Or Raveners? I want to love those little gribblies, but I just can't see any good reason to put them on the table. Hoping against hope that that will change.
I didn't directly mean 40k terminology when I say "tank" and "artillery", but your classification works just as well. Might make these changes though-
Spoiler:
Exocrine - indirect fire(Heavy Infantry/Vehicles) Biovore-indirect fire(Light Infantry) Tyrannofex - direct fire
Tervigon - transport (after a fashion)
Haruspex - melee linebreaker
Trygon - flanking brawler
Mawloc - deep striking interference
Dreadnought - jack of all trades dreadnought
Hive Tyrant - psychic jack of all trades dreadnought
Harpy - anti tank flyer
Crone - anti infantry flyer
I was leaving the Biovore out because I was only talking about monstrous creatures. If we start putting in everything else, the list gets looooooong.
Yeah, I noticed that too, so I just stopped at Biovore. Not really many other shooting dedicated units in the dex anyway besides Hive Guard and Pyrovores. And they may be repurposed with the new codex.
Redemption wrote: No, it's supposedly by the 'Design Team', like the recent 40k supplements.
They got annoyed by Ward hate, and want to redirect all the hate from actual people toward a vague non-personal entity.
Yeah, but when the first appearance of the Hentaispex is devouring a Shrine world of Sisters of Battle, we'll know.
We'll know.
On-topic, did the WD battle report showcase Hormagaunts at all? Or Raveners? I want to love those little gribblies, but I just can't see any good reason to put them on the table. Hoping against hope that that will change.
Not as far as we know. White Dwarf guy said it was a mostly Monstrous Creature list vs Tau. I didn't read anything about who won either.
Eldercaveman wrote: But a re-roll to wound would make Toxin sacs against anything T4 or lower pointless, which would discourage you from buying them. When really those high initiative, high volume, rending attacks with poison will be great for taking down Monsterous creatures. Especially win scything talons for complete re-rolls.
OT, has anything more been picked up about Old One Eye, from the sounds of it he has had quite a boost in the White Dwarf battle report.
We know two things for sure about Old One Eye from the White Dwarf;
1) He is 220 points, or 40 points cheaper than he used to be.
2) He "regenerates wounds like crazy".
The second one leads me to believe he can take an It Will Not Die roll for each wound he has suffered, not just one per turn, and gets them on a 4+ or 3+ or something like that. Probably has five or six wounds as well. Something like that would actually justify him still being 100 points more than a stock Carnifex.
Ha ha, yeah I doubt it. It's a battle report from white dwarf, he could be rolling IWND rolls needing a 6+ and pass like 2-3 in the game and those guys would say that. Presumably he will get come kind of boost but rolling 3+ IWND on every lost wound is more busted then FNP 4+ on a MC. I actually hope thats not true as I would prefer balanced rules for a change.
I could see reg being IWND this codex and old one eye having it either a 4+ or him get multiple rolls a turn. Or they maje him op by giving him both I also wonder if he'll be part of a carn brood or by himself, fluff says he's a leader beast after all.
Eldercaveman wrote: But a re-roll to wound would make Toxin sacs against anything T4 or lower pointless, which would discourage you from buying them. When really those high initiative, high volume, rending attacks with poison will be great for taking down Monsterous creatures. Especially win scything talons for complete re-rolls.
OT, has anything more been picked up about Old One Eye, from the sounds of it he has had quite a boost in the White Dwarf battle report.
We know two things for sure about Old One Eye from the White Dwarf;
1) He is 220 points, or 40 points cheaper than he used to be.
2) He "regenerates wounds like crazy".
The second one leads me to believe he can take an It Will Not Die roll for each wound he has suffered, not just one per turn, and gets them on a 4+ or 3+ or something like that. Probably has five or six wounds as well. Something like that would actually justify him still being 100 points more than a stock Carnifex.
I'd love to have a reason to convert me one but with my limited time I can't justify big projects that won't see table time sadly.
He's not a big project. The stock Carnifex kit comes with Crushing Claws and a Regeration head.
tetrisphreak wrote: All i know is that if carnifexes see a point drop and/or an FOC switch the 9 i own will see the table again.
The ~40 point drop on Carnifexes has come from the WD leaks I believe, so that's pretty trustworthy.
That's what I'm hoping to be true. The thing is we've been put through the wringer so many times with this codex release (false rumors and being trolled ALL YEAR) i'm in "Believe it when i see it" mode. But i'm cautiously optimistic. I have a Stone Crusher, 3 screamer killers, 2 or 3 Barbed Strangler fexes, a Venom Cannon Fex, and a couple magnetized ones for pinch hitting (they usually get devourers).
tetrisphreak wrote: All i know is that if carnifexes see a point drop and/or an FOC switch the 9 i own will see the table again.
The ~40 point drop on Carnifexes has come from the WD leaks I believe, so that's pretty trustworthy.
That's what I'm hoping to be true. The thing is we've been put through the wringer so many times with this codex release (false rumors and being trolled ALL YEAR) i'm in "Believe it when i see it" mode. But i'm cautiously optimistic. I have a Stone Crusher, 3 screamer killers, 2 or 3 Barbed Strangler fexes, a Venom Cannon Fex, and a couple magnetized ones for pinch hitting (they usually get devourers).
I'm really holding out for Warriors being good. I really like the models, but it doesn't look good so far...
Therion wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if Stealers and Warriors suck balls as the army might still be competitive in some Zilla format, but naturally it would be disappointing if they still couldn't fix the T4-bad armour save-no invulnerable save-multiwound model problem. Both the T4 eternal warrior or T5 standard variants would work as long as the points cost is balanced -- Either way they'd be playable maybe even highly competitive.
GW has mostly overvalued multiwound models going back to the beginning of 3rd. I'm definitely hoping for EW, but if they didn't make that change, it's at least consistent behavior.
I don't go back as far as you guys, but I do remember tooled-up Carnifexes wrecking face and swarms of Genestealers/Broodlord just straight up eating things. Two books ago, if I recall, when I first got into 40k.
I don't want to be a doom-and-gloom naysayer, and many people on here after seeing leaked Codex pages, are already deciding on units. But I mean, we could be surprised. I don't recall if anyone predicted how surprisingly powerful Coteaz + Troop Inquisitor Retinues could be before the GK Codex, did they? It was like a hidden gem in the Codex. Not like the GK needed more powerful options, but you know. Trying to make a point. There might be something pretty awesome that we don't know about.
With that said, though, I will also admit that things look pretty grim at the moment with things we have confirmed. Tervigons needing mandatory 30 Gants, no Pod, Warriors still dying to Krak Missiles, Genestealers being a cracked glass cannon... I so badly want this Codex to be at least mid-tier. I wait to see what the big beasties/flyers really do, (I'm particularly curious about the Haruspex "eating" things) and the updates to some of the less viable options, Pyrovores, Venomthropes, Lictors, etc... but I mean if we can be serious, they will probably be almost the exact same as last Codex. I just don't see them drastically changing anything. And big beasties, even with their good save/toughness/high Wounds... They can just die to massed fire/good sniper rolls/etc. Nidzilla has its own problems and I don't want to run it, to be honest.
I'm REALLY hoping for nasty Hormagaunts again. I love those little gribblies so much more than Termagants. If I can run Hormagaunts and a Carnifex again, Screamer-Killer maybe, I'll be pretty happy. I like the idea of Tyranids being an intergalactic locust swarm.
Tl;dr: We wait with bated breath for our beloved 'Nids, Warriors and Genestealers do not a success or failure make.
Tyranid players have always adapted. Consider the twists and turns the army has been through with every edition and the power builds that emerged.
2nd ed codex - Fast and deadly
3rd ed rulebook list - SLOW steamroller horde
3rd ed codex - Rending mutant hordes with various mutable genus support
3rd ed codex under 4th ed rules - Beast CC Warriors and dual VC Carnifexes
4th ed codex - Nidzilla, and later Stealer Shock
5th ed codex - Tervigon-based builds
5th ed codex under 6th ed rules - Tervigon-based with Biomancy spam
Therion wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if Stealers and Warriors suck balls as the army might still be competitive in some Zilla format, but naturally it would be disappointing if they still couldn't fix the T4-bad armour save-no invulnerable save-multiwound model problem. Both the T4 eternal warrior or T5 standard variants would work as long as the points cost is balanced -- Either way they'd be playable maybe even highly competitive.
GW has mostly overvalued multiwound models going back to the beginning of 3rd. I'm definitely hoping for EW, but if they didn't make that change, it's at least consistent behavior.
I don't go back as far as you guys, but I do remember tooled-up Carnifexes wrecking face and swarms of Genestealers/Broodlord just straight up eating things. Two books ago, if I recall, when I first got into 40k.
I don't want to be a doom-and-gloom naysayer, and many people on here after seeing leaked Codex pages, are already deciding on units. But I mean, we could be surprised. I don't recall if anyone predicted how surprisingly powerful Coteaz + Troop Inquisitor Retinues could be before the GK Codex, did they? It was like a hidden gem in the Codex. Not like the GK needed more powerful options, but you know. Trying to make a point. There might be something pretty awesome that we don't know about.
With that said, though, I will also admit that things look pretty grim at the moment with things we have confirmed. Tervigons needing mandatory 30 Gants, no Pod, Warriors still dying to Krak Missiles, Genestealers being a cracked glass cannon... I so badly want this Codex to be at least mid-tier. I wait to see what the big beasties/flyers really do, (I'm particularly curious about the Haruspex "eating" things) and the updates to some of the less viable options, Pyrovores, Venomthropes, Lictors, etc... but I mean if we can be serious, they will probably be almost the exact same as last Codex. I just don't see them drastically changing anything. And big beasties, even with their good save/toughness/high Wounds... They can just die to massed fire/good sniper rolls/etc. Nidzilla has its own problems and I don't want to run it, to be honest.
I'm REALLY hoping for nasty Hormagaunts again. I love those little gribblies so much more than Termagants. If I can run Hormagaunts and a Carnifex again, Screamer-Killer maybe, I'll be pretty happy. I like the idea of Tyranids being an intergalactic locust swarm.
Tl;dr: We wait with bated breath for our beloved 'Nids, Warriors and Genestealers do not a success or failure make.
Tyranid players have always adapted. Consider the twists and turns the army has been through with every edition and the power builds that emerged.
2nd ed codex - Fast and deadly
3rd ed rulebook list - SLOW steamroller horde
3rd ed codex - Rending mutant hordes with various mutable genus support
3rd ed codex under 4th ed rules - Beast CC Warriors and dual VC Carnifexes
4th ed codex - Nidzilla, and later Stealer Shock
5th ed codex - Tervigon-based builds
5th ed codex under 6th ed rules - Tervigon-based with Biomancy spam
Eldercaveman wrote: But a re-roll to wound would make Toxin sacs against anything T4 or lower pointless, which would discourage you from buying them. When really those high initiative, high volume, rending attacks with poison will be great for taking down Monsterous creatures. Especially win scything talons for complete re-rolls.
OT, has anything more been picked up about Old One Eye, from the sounds of it he has had quite a boost in the White Dwarf battle report.
We know two things for sure about Old One Eye from the White Dwarf;
1) He is 220 points, or 40 points cheaper than he used to be.
2) He "regenerates wounds like crazy".
The second one leads me to believe he can take an It Will Not Die roll for each wound he has suffered, not just one per turn, and gets them on a 4+ or 3+ or something like that. Probably has five or six wounds as well. Something like that would actually justify him still being 100 points more than a stock Carnifex.
I'd love to have a reason to convert me one but with my limited time I can't justify big projects that won't see table time sadly.
He's not a big project. The stock Carnifex kit comes with Crushing Claws and a Regeration head.
Yeah to do the bare minimum.
I'll bet if you used the haruspex claws and clipped/smoothed over the carnifex chimneys you'd have a pretty good conversion. Plus an exocrine.
Well... yes. It's a standard Carnifex equipped with a pair of Crushing Claws and Scything Talons, apart from his famous eye injury. Apart from maybe his small head spikes, it really isn't that unique-looking. What could you do in a "big project" to make it look more like Old One-Eye, other than modeling it extensively for the sole purpose of looking unique rather than looking more like the character?
Well... yes. It's a standard Carnifex equipped with a pair of Crushing Claws and Scything Talons, apart from his famous eye injury. Apart from maybe his small head spikes, it really isn't that unique-looking. What could you do in a "big project" to make it look more like Old One-Eye, other than modeling it extensively for the sole purpose of looking unique rather than looking more like the character?
Hmmm perchance use an old carnosaur had? Or some sort of dragon? Greenstuff is always an option.
Well... yes. It's a standard Carnifex equipped with a pair of Crushing Claws and Scything Talons, apart from his famous eye injury. Apart from maybe his small head spikes, it really isn't that unique-looking. What could you do in a "big project" to make it look more like Old One-Eye, other than modeling it extensively for the sole purpose of looking unique rather than looking more like the character?
Hmmm perchance use an old carnosaur had? Or some sort of dragon? Greenstuff is always an option.
That is exactly what I just said. There's nothing explicitly "Old One-Eye" about that model; it is nice, yes, and unique, yes, but there's nothing about it specific to Old One-Eye other than the (custom) Crushing Claws and regeneration head. The fact that the claws are custom and not actual Crushing Claws does nothing to make it look more like Old One-Eye. Just because you could possibly spend a lot of time and effort doesn't mean that it is what it takes to make it look like Old One-Eye.
That person's Tyranids are nice, but all of them are converted or customised to some degree - it only makes them look different, not more like how they "should". By the same token, a perfectly as-packaged squad of Warriors, however well-painted, would be "yeah to do the bare minimum", which is totally condescending and implies that you must make things incredibly difficult for yourself or else it's not worthy of consideration.
So yes, you could make Old One-Eye into a big project, just as you could spend months on every individual gaunt to make them look cool and unique, but don't imply that not doing so is a bad thing.
Frozen Ocean wrote: That is exactly what I just said. There's nothing explicitly "Old One-Eye" about that model; it is nice, yes, and unique, yes, but there's nothing about it specific to Old One-Eye other than the (custom) Crushing Claws and regeneration head. The fact that the claws are custom and not actual Crushing Claws does nothing to make it look more like Old One-Eye. Just because you could possibly spend a lot of time and effort doesn't mean that it is what it takes to make it look like Old One-Eye.
That person's Tyranids are nice, but all of them are converted or customised to some degree - it only makes them look different, not more like how they "should". By the same token, a perfectly as-packaged squad of Warriors, however well-painted, would be "yeah to do the bare minimum", which is totally condescending and implies that you must make things incredibly difficult for yourself or else it's not worthy of consideration.
So yes, you could make Old One-Eye into a big project, just as you could spend months on every individual gaunt to make them look cool and unique, but don't imply that not doing so is a bad thing.
But when I've described something as a big project for me, then saying that just put together a Carnifex kit with the correct biomorphs isn't really useful input, when I've already implied that it would be more than that for me. Anyway we are dragging this far to far off topic and probably best leave well enough alone.
Can we have less chatter? I want to keep the thread open for rumours. Modelling discussions and arguments about conversion merit can be moved elsewhere.
Warriors were described as "Half Dual" which was something of an odd thing. I think it was mentioned that a warrior brood can be taken as a HQ retinue for a Prime or as a Troops choice (So two different types of warrior brood?). Reasonably this function, plus being able to make one of them into a prime could justify the "Half dual" description.
streamdragon wrote: Is the teaser trailer supposed to be this Saturday or next?
The teaser is probably going to come out the weekend after Christmas, since the WD is scheduled for 04-Jan-2014, with an 11-Jan-2014 launch. It kind of makes sense that GW wants to push the pre-release back to after the New Year, so that they can present a more attractive target to all the folks looking to spend their holiday cash and gift cards.
Also, I need a Malefactor. It's going to sit on my shelf next to my Forgefiend, in the collection of giant monsters that I don't use for armies I don't play.
Just throwing my 2 cents into the ring, as a long time tyranid fan, regarding the teaser pics (on page 1)
Codex Cover = LOL i think its probably the best thing about all the pics on page 1. That is a GREAT cover
Prime= A little dissapointing, he just looks like a warrior, with the extra shoulder plates. Big deal. I do really like the bonesword arm and whip arm, i need some of those
Warriors = Nothing new there? Nothing was really wrong with them though i guess, but that model is pretty old, it really could have used a re-fresher.
Tyrant Guard = what in the absolute F is this!? Are you serious? This looks absolutely terrible, it looks even worse than the last 2 tyrant guard, which i also think look terrible. I am gonna be scratch building my own
Exocrine= Not sure what i think. Im not sure about the tube thing coming out of his head going up into the gun. I think this actually could be a cool kit though, i will get 1 or 2.
Haruspex = jesus, that looks terrible. I dont even know what im looking at, it just looks like a confusing blob of chaotic tentacles and daemon parts. I dont like this, and not buying it.
Harpy= NICE!! this looks sharp, and i think is gonna sell like hot cakes. i might buy 2 of these I like the little bomb things too
Hive Guard= I think these look pretty good, but are they on a 60mm base or 40mm base? If a 40 then they are kinda small?
My biggest dissapoint is there is absolute nothing yet about the gaunt sprue being re-cut with new weapons and heads? I think they lost out on their biggest money maker - new gaunt box, especially with the scary sounding new rule about tervigons being able to create even larger swarms, and not burn out, etc..
winterman wrote:None of those. White dwarf is released on Jan 4 so should be a week before then.
DaddyWarcrimes wrote:The teaser is probably going to come out the weekend after Christmas, since the WD is scheduled for 04-Jan-2014, with an 11-Jan-2014 launch.
Ah, cheers, apparently I have forgotten how to read a calendar...
the rewrite for the Tervigon has doubled the minimum number of Termagants required to make it a troops choice, allows you to buy extra dice for spawning and remove the risk of what I dubbed "prolapsing".
the rewrite for the Tervigon has doubled the minimum number of Termagants required to make it a troops choice, allows you to buy extra dice for spawning and remove the risk of what I dubbed "prolapsing".
Rumours in this thread have the requirement of a brood of 30 termagants to make a Tervigon troops choice. So technically tripled the previous requirement
the rewrite for the Tervigon has doubled the minimum number of Termagants required to make it a troops choice, allows you to buy extra dice for spawning and remove the risk of what I dubbed "prolapsing".
The leaked Termagant profile shows that you need 30 Termagants to make the Tervigon a troop. The extra dice spawning and removal of Tervigon menopause were 4chan rumors, so not necessarily very reliable.
neal1975 wrote: Prime= A little dissapointing, he just looks like a warrior, with the extra shoulder plates. Big deal.
That's because that's all Primes ever were - warriors. That's why they were on the warrior bestiary page and were described as the apex of the warrior genus. A spiky warrior is all it was ever going to be.
neal1975 wrote:Hive Guard= I think these look pretty good, but are they on a 60mm base or 40mm base? If a 40 then they are kinda small
50mm bases.
Bloodhorror wrote:I've heard this from a friend:
the rewrite for the Tervigon has doubled the minimum number of Termagants required to make it a troops choice, allows you to buy extra dice for spawning and remove the risk of what I dubbed "prolapsing".
Bloodhorror wrote:This is from a guy who has the codex by the way.
The Termagant Brood entry already leaked, and showed that only broods of 30 Termagants will unlock a Tervigon as a Troops choice.
Hmmm looks legit. It could be fake profiles, like with those old necron entries and the "necroshell" nonsense, but they don't appear to be that implausible.
If they are legit, then it looks like Shadow of the Warp is still around, and stealers are more or less the same.
neal1975 wrote:Just throwing my 2 cents into the ring, as a long time tyranid fan, regarding the teaser pics (on page 1)
Codex Cover = LOL i think its probably the best thing about all the pics on page 1. That is a GREAT cover
It is a great cover. All the 6th edition ones have been.
neal1975 wrote:Prime= A little dissapointing, he just looks like a warrior, with the extra shoulder plates. Big deal. I do really like the bonesword arm and whip arm, i need some of those.
That's because Primes were always Warriors. Really nothing different about them in the description or flavor.
neal1975 wrote:Warriors = Nothing new there? Nothing was really wrong with them though i guess, but that model is pretty old, it really could have used a re-fresher.
It is a new kit, with bits for all options, and the bits for the Prime. He's not a separate model.
neal1975 wrote:Tyrant Guard = what in the absolute F is this!? Are you serious? This looks absolutely terrible, it looks even worse than the last 2 tyrant guard, which i also think look terrible. I am gonna be scratch building my own.
It looks like the old concept artwork from years ago that was never implemented. It actually looks like it can take a bullet for a Hive Tyrant now, instead of the little knuckle-walking ape it was before. Oh, and they are a part of the Hive Guard kit, both of which come on 50mm bases.
neal1975 wrote:Exocrine= Not sure what i think. Im not sure about the tube thing coming out of his head going up into the gun. I think this actually could be a cool kit though, i will get 1 or 2.
Haruspex = jesus, that looks terrible. I dont even know what im looking at, it just looks like a confusing blob of chaotic tentacles and daemon parts. I dont like this, and not buying it.
Well, the Haruspex is in the Exocrine kit, so if you're buying one, you are getting the other.
The paintjob makes the tentacles seem like a mess, but look harder. Your comment was not only not funny, but completely exaggerated. It's a hulking brute of a monster with a huge, gaping maw. One "grabber" tentacle shoots out to ensare it's pray and drags it into the feeders tendrils of it's mouth.
neal1975 wrote:My biggest dissapoint is there is absolute nothing yet about the gaunt sprue being re-cut with new weapons and heads? I think they lost out on their biggest money maker - new gaunt box, especially with the scary sounding new rule about tervigons being able to create even larger swarms, and not burn out, etc.
GW doesn't "re-cut" things, contrary to popular myth. Gaunts will be sold online for a short time at 20 for $33. Considerable savings when one sees they are $30 for 12 right now. Nobody knows if a new kit is on the way in another wave or not, but I'm sure we would find out from pictures in the codex (like they did with Dark Elves).
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: Really pissed about the genestealers. Was hoping for at LEAST a 2 point reduction.
Yeah, right now we can hold out for changes in the Biomorphs. The Broodlord entry states that it can take all Biomorphs from the list. This means that maybe it has access to Flesh Hooks, and can thus give the unit assault grenades. Also, The Horror psychic power might be quite good. Maybe it makes the Horrored unit not be able to overwatch? Some changes that introduce some synergy like that might make Genestealers a little better.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ravenous D wrote: So unless something changed drastically warriors and stealers still suck and its now 120pts to make a tervigon a troop instead of 50.
It's only a little airborne, it's still good, it's still good!
Also, the base Tervigon got more expensive. Something like 15-25 points more at base. Did anyone not see it coming?
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: Really pissed about the genestealers. Was hoping for at LEAST a 2 point reduction.
Yeah, right now we can hold out for changes in the Biomorphs. The Broodlord entry states that it can take all Biomorphs from the list. This means that maybe it has access to Flesh Hooks, and can thus give the unit assault grenades. Also, The Horror psychic power might be quite good. Maybe it makes the Horrored unit not be able to overwatch? Some changes that introduce some synergy like that might make Genestealers a little better.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ravenous D wrote: So unless something changed drastically warriors and stealers still suck and its now 120pts to make a tervigon a troop instead of 50.
It's only a little airborne, it's still good, it's still good!
Also, the base Tervigon got more expensive. Something like 15-25 points more at base. Did anyone not see it coming?
What really bugs me about genestealers is that they are still 14 points while Daemonettes who are almost as good are only 9 now. Granted, 'stealers have +1 S, T, and WS but Daemonettes have a ++ save and even so, I don't think it justifies them being 5 points more expensive.
What is interesting from the leaked Army List entries we have seen is that there seems to be no new special rule added to the Tyranid Codex. There is no such appearance of a hitherto unknown special rule. Also can't recall seeing a version of the current Instinctive behaviour special rule in the Termagant entry.
stonehorse wrote: What is interesting from the leaked Army List entries we have seen is that there seems to be no new special rule added to the Tyranid Codex. There is no such appearance of a hitherto unknown special rule. Also can't recall seeing a version of the current Instinctive behaviour special rule in the Termagant entry.
That being said the leaks could be fakes.
They don't seem fake to me. Each of them was taken from White Dwarf and not a single recent White Dwarf has had snaps from a codex proven to be fake.
If indeed the Exocrine and Haruspex are smaller than the Tyrannofex and Tervigon, as seems to be the case, then maybe they could only end up being T6 W5 3+?
I just really hope the Haruspex is a Jump Monstrous Creature.....
I am actually glad of the new Tervigon rules. I can finally sell my 20 Devgaunts and 40 odd normal Gaunts which I never use as I dont like any of them...
I am just praying for Garg's as troops choices, my life would be complete...
I pretty much always jiggle across the table even now. My Nid list only has troops as units that cant move 12"+ (except Mawlocs but they kinda get there by default on T2).
With the Wraithknight, it is to kind of show that it moves as quickly as a Super Heavy Walker given its' size IMO.
With the Haruspex, I think it could very well be a Jump Monstrous Creature because the model, tongue and overall design just make it seem like a bloated Tyranid frog. It probably won't happen, but it has to have some way of differentiating itself from other melee monsters in the book (Trygon and Carnifex in particular).
Alternatively, the way to differentiate the units would be to give the Trygon a 12" beast move, like it's smaller Ravener cousins. Makes more sense for the Trygon.
I agree, though the Trygon can deep strike safely (for the time being) to mitigate that. The Haruspex, presumably, has no such option. So for game balance purposes, I think the Haruspex will probably want it the most.
Caederes wrote: I agree, though the Trygon can deep strike safely (for the time being) to mitigate that. The Haruspex, presumably, has no such option. So for game balance purposes, I think the Haruspex will probably want it the most.
True. Unless he can grapple and pull things with his tongue. I think the Tyranids could totally utilize that synergy. Pulling units towards hordes of Hormagaunts would be nasty. Pulling that fast vehicle towards our slow MC's to demolish would work really well and be a helpful way of making melee-fex's work.
rollawaythestone wrote: Alternatively, the way to differentiate the units would be to give the Trygon a 12" beast move, like it's smaller Ravener cousins. Makes more sense for the Trygon.
It is pretty silly that a model 4x as big moves 2x as slow as a ravener.. a much larger stride makes a big difference in ground covered!
It looks like the old concept artwork from years ago that was never implemented. It actually looks like it can take a bullet for a Hive Tyrant now, instead of the little knuckle-walking ape it was before. Oh, and they are a part of the Hive Guard kit, both of which come on 50mm bases..
I actually prefer the old boulder-like Guards. They do look fairly nimble underneath all the plating (in the same way that your example, an ape, is quite nimble for all its bulk and strength) and I liked to imagine them literally jumping in front of their Tyrant, bodyguard/secret service-style, to catch bullets for him.
The new ones certainly look like they can do better job of protecting him while they're just standing around, but I prefer the implied dynamism of the previous version.
Still have no problem with the overall kit, though, and I plan to update all my Hive Guard. Probably going to keep my metal Tyrant Guard in service, though. I want guardians that are relentlessly attentive, looking for opportunities to throw themselves into harm's way, rather than bored shield-beasts who just make sure their listless loitering is occurring in the general direction of where enemy fire is coming from.
rollawaythestone wrote: Alternatively, the way to differentiate the units would be to give the Trygon a 12" beast move, like it's smaller Ravener cousins. Makes more sense for the Trygon.
It is pretty silly that a model 4x as big moves 2x as slow as a ravener.. a much larger stride makes a big difference in ground covered!
Technically, neither creature strides anywhere... they slither!
Zookie wrote: Any solid rumors about what adrenal glands will do?
Current rumor is both Furious Charge and Fleet.
Bit of a mixed bag. Great for gargoyles and MCs but a lot of the army already has fleet. I wonder if it will have an added affect for creatures that come with fleet, like upgrading fleet to fleet with crusade. Or maybe this is what all the rumors in the fall about having the Nids run and assault was about. Maybe creatures with fleet that take adrenal glands will be able to run and assault? That would be nice.
Zookie wrote: Any solid rumors about what adrenal glands will do?
Current rumor is both Furious Charge and Fleet.
Bit of a mixed bag. Great for gargoyles and MCs but a lot of the army already has fleet. I wonder if it will have an added affect for creatures that come with fleet, like upgrading fleet to fleet with crusade. Or maybe this is what all the rumors in the fall about having the Nids run and assault was about. Maybe creatures with fleet that take adrenal glands will be able to run and assault? That would be nice.
Hopefully it would give them an added bonus besides Fleet, or maybe that rumor was false. Genestealers already have Fleet according to the White Dwarf entry, so 2pts for Furious Charge seems like a waste. Where did that rumor come from to begin with?
Zookie wrote: Any solid rumors about what adrenal glands will do?
Current rumor is both Furious Charge and Fleet.
Bit of a mixed bag. Great for gargoyles and MCs but a lot of the army already has fleet. I wonder if it will have an added affect for creatures that come with fleet, like upgrading fleet to fleet with crusade. Or maybe this is what all the rumors in the fall about having the Nids run and assault was about. Maybe creatures with fleet that take adrenal glands will be able to run and assault? That would be nice.
Hopefully it would give them an added bonus besides Fleet, or maybe that rumor was false. Genestealers already have Fleet according to the White Dwarf entry, so 2pts for Furious Charge seems like a waste. Where did that rumor come from to begin with?
Is 2 points worth it for just FC for stealers? I would say no, especially when you consider what CSM get for their marks at the same price.
There was an earlier rumor that stealers were getting extra attacks and a weapon skill buff. It seems the leaked stat line seems to discredit this. But it is not in the stat line but this maybe that what AG do.
This is my pet theory/wishlisting AG will grant rage and will double WS on the charge. This will put Stealers at WS 10 on the charge which will allow then to better assault terrain as they will weather the first round better.
stonehorse wrote: What is interesting from the leaked Army List entries we have seen is that there seems to be no new special rule added to the Tyranid Codex. There is no such appearance of a hitherto unknown special rule. Also can't recall I seeing a version of the current Instinctive behaviour special rule in the Termagant entry.
That being said the leaks could be fakes.
They look pretty real to me. I'm surprised that people go to the bother to make fakes...
stonehorse wrote: What is interesting from the leaked Army List entries we have seen is that there seems to be no new special rule added to the Tyranid Codex. There is no such appearance of a hitherto unknown special rule. Also can't recall I seeing a version of the current Instinctive behaviour special rule in the Termagant entry.
That being said the leaks could be fakes.
They look pretty real to me. I'm surprised that people go to the bother to make fakes...
Its happened before if I recall correctly, especially right before the 6e rulebook came out.
stonehorse wrote: What is interesting from the leaked Army List entries we have seen is that there seems to be no new special rule added to the Tyranid Codex. There is no such appearance of a hitherto unknown special rule. Also can't recall I seeing a version of the current Instinctive behaviour special rule in the Termagant entry.
That being said the leaks could be fakes.
They look pretty real to me. I'm surprised that people go to the bother to make fakes...
Its happened before if I recall correctly, especially right before the 6e rulebook came out.
Iirc the creators of the pancake edition didn't do it deliberately, it was something they made for themselves and the online community jumped to a lot of conclusions.
anyone else thinking that the flying carnifex....eeeer harpy/crone model looks to bulky to be able to actually fly??
those wings were ok for the hive tyrant...they were still kinda small maybe but since this is a tabletop miniature/model (toy?..lately they get bigger and bigger to continue calling them minis) it was ok..
but that new flyer.. first of all couldn they bother design a completly new looking creature?? in the codex artwork harpy had a nice distinctive head..not a carnifex head!
it kind looks like a ball with wings or a carnifex without limbs..
just take hive tyrants wings and stick them in a carnifex and remove his legs and.. voila here is a harpy!
dont know if anyone else feels kinda disspaointed with that model...considering it is going to be the most expensive relese also..
I'm really interested to see what's happening with the Troop choices and what's most viable for competitive play. I'd love to be able to field my Genestealers again so anything that makes them even half decent (like the Broodlord and his upgrades) would be very welcome.
The Swarmlord's reported buff is very nice indeed, since he's the centrpiece of my army. An additional mastery level for a mere 5 points is most pleasing.
If I can field good old Swarmy and a Tyrant Guard retinue, a couple of new flyers, a handful of 'Fexes and some Broodlord led 'Stealers but remain somewhere in the realms of remotely competitive i'll be a happy chappy.
I'm willing to bet that it looks a lot better in the flesh, the photo doesn't seem to do it justice. From looking at the flight stand we can get an idea of the size, and I have to say it looks like it is going to be one big kit.
-Loki- wrote: Well aside from size. They're saying the Harpy will be the biggest flyer yet. A Carnifex with Tyrant wings wouldn't be bigger than a Valkyrie.
It'll be the biggest Flying Monstrous Creature model for sure, and the first one to come on an oval base with flying stand. But judging from the flying stand in the picture, I doubt it'll be bigger than a Valkyrie or a Heldrake - certainly not in volume.
Tyranids only have 3 sets. In the case of the Harpy/Crone, 2 sets limbs for the wings and 1 set for the weapons, just like their smaller cousin, the Gargoyle.
-Loki- wrote: Well aside from size. They're saying the Harpy will be the biggest flyer yet. A Carnifex with Tyrant wings wouldn't be bigger than a Valkyrie.
It'll be the biggest Flying Monstrous Creature model for sure, and the first one to come on an oval base with flying stand. But judging from the flying stand in the picture, I doubt it'll be bigger than a Valkyrie or a Heldrake - certainly not in volume.
Tyranids only have 3 sets. In the case of the Harpy/Crone, 2 sets limbs for the wings and 1 set for the weapons, just like their smaller cousin, the Gargoyle.
Yeah, right now we can hold out for changes in the Biomorphs. The Broodlord entry states that it can take all Biomorphs from the list. This means that maybe it has access to Flesh Hooks, and can thus give the unit assault grenades. Also, The Horror psychic power might be quite good. Maybe it makes the Horrored unit not be able to overwatch? Some changes that introduce some synergy like that might make Genestealers a little better.
Bit late on this one, but only MODELS with assault grenades hit at initiative. Even if the Broodlord gets them, it'll only help itself - the stealers will still be I1.
I dunno, the closer we get to the codex drop the more apprehensive I'm getting. We have no idea if they kept the things making them viable (biomancy, shadow in the warp being awesome) yet we know that several mainstays have been nerfed/deleted. I really hope the Trygon tunnels work better this time or else Tyranids will be a surprisingly slow, immobile army. Still, the Harpy/Crone could throw out Shadow in the Warp, Carnifexes could have some super undercosted stuff, the biocannons could be broken, the Horror could act like Terrify with a leadership debuff or something - it's just too hard to judge. The fact that apparently an MC heavy army faces relatively non-shooty Tau and it's a draw fills me with dread honestly. Nids needed a lot of reworking - from the stuff we've seen, it doesn't look like they got it. May well be viable (though definitely not in escalation, cheers GW) but I suspect they'll be close to mono-build again if they are.
RiTides wrote: That's a lot of doom for it not having yet released, Eyjio
I don't think it's bad to be critical about all the new rules. I can't remember a release where I wasn't majorly disappointed in something. I thought the Eldar codex sucked balls. It's got a couple great units so it's competitive, in fact it's one of the best armies out there, but I still think the codex as a whole stinks because it's a pile of trash that's being carried on a few crutches. Space Marines sucked too, as did Chaos and Dark Eldar. I think Tau is the most satisfying codex lately but even that has its design faults and internal inconsistencies. The new Tyranids can still end up as being the best army in the game, or the worst, but if Stealers, Warriors and some of the other stuff still sucks balls (despite easy fixes being available) the codex can't be considered a major success.
Sikamikanic0 wrote: anyone else thinking that the flying carnifex....eeeer harpy/crone model looks to bulky to be able to actually fly??
those wings were ok for the hive tyrant...they were still kinda small maybe but since this is a tabletop miniature/model (toy?..lately they get bigger and bigger to continue calling them minis) it was ok..
but that new flyer.. first of all couldn they bother design a completly new looking creature?? in the codex artwork harpy had a nice distinctive head..not a carnifex head!
it kind looks like a ball with wings or a carnifex without limbs..
just take hive tyrants wings and stick them in a carnifex and remove his legs and.. voila here is a harpy!
dont know if anyone else feels kinda disspaointed with that model...considering it is going to be the most expensive relese also..
my 2 cents.
We don't have full pictures yet. We've basically only had close-ups of the torso without any relation to anything else. There's still room for size.
And to carry on the discussion- there are a lot of things we don't know as of yet. What any of the biomorphs are confirmed to do, what army-wide special rules they have, and what synapse and Shadow in the Warp does this time around. We really only have statlines and keywords leaked for termagants, genestealers, and warriors. Even on them we don't have the whole picture. Who knows, warriors may find a new niche in fire support with lots of shooty weapons.
dakkajet wrote: Um.. This might sound so stupid.. But what are theTyranid Psychic Cards?
Well, you know the Eldar psychic cards, or the Warhammer Fantasy Battle psychic cards? The cards that tell you all of the psychic powers so you don't have to go into the book all of the time?
Even if tyranids end up mono build I'll still be playing them. Bugs are still great opponents considering the only armys played where im at are sm/tau/eldar/necron.
I'm sure most of the codex will fall to the wayside in favor of a few select more competitive units but that is the way of the world. Even if gw gets the army balanced players will still pick out the cream of the crop and abuse them if they can. That's not a bad thing, thats just people trying get the most out of the army.
Either way, my swarmlord will still be ran, even if they nerf him to death.
dakkajet wrote: Um.. This might sound so stupid.. But what are theTyranid Psychic Cards?
It's the Tyranid psychic powers listed out on cards to make it easier to remember what does what. It also gives you a fairly easy way to randomize without using dice. Just shuffle and deal.
Rotary wrote: Even if tyranids end up mono build I'll still be playing them. Bugs are still great opponents considering the only armys played where im at are sm/tau/eldar/necron.
I'm sure most of the codex will fall to the wayside in favor of a few select more competitive units but that is the way of the world. Even if gw gets the army balanced players will still pick out the cream of the crop and abuse them if they can. That's not a bad thing, thats just people trying get the most out of the army.
Either way, my swarmlord will still be ran, even if they nerf him to death.
I see no reason to further nerf the swarmlord.. they already did and it's called 6th edition assault phase.
Rotary wrote: Even if tyranids end up mono build I'll still be playing them. Bugs are still great opponents considering the only armys played where im at are sm/tau/eldar/necron.
I'm sure most of the codex will fall to the wayside in favor of a few select more competitive units but that is the way of the world. Even if gw gets the army balanced players will still pick out the cream of the crop and abuse them if they can. That's not a bad thing, thats just people trying get the most out of the army.
Either way, my swarmlord will still be ran, even if they nerf him to death.
I see no reason to further nerf the swarmlord.. they already did and it's called 6th edition assault phase.
Well the Swarmlord went up by 5 points and is now ML3... I wouldn't be surprised if it got the Avatar treatment and got a general stat buff alongside the point increase.
All the tiny bugs and MCs got an overall reduction in points going by the WD leaks. The warriors and genestealers appear not to have changed and rippers are more points than before. This is perplexing as you would imagine the medium bugs needed a point drop the most.
I think this is indicative of a change in the synapse/synapse creature rules...but what the change is, who knows?
Rotary wrote: Even if tyranids end up mono build I'll still be playing them. Bugs are still great opponents considering the only armys played where im at are sm/tau/eldar/necron.
I'm sure most of the codex will fall to the wayside in favor of a few select more competitive units but that is the way of the world. Even if gw gets the army balanced players will still pick out the cream of the crop and abuse them if they can. That's not a bad thing, thats just people trying get the most out of the army.
Either way, my swarmlord will still be ran, even if they nerf him to death.
I see no reason to further nerf the swarmlord.. they already did and it's called 6th edition assault phase.
Well the Swarmlord went up by 5 points and is now ML3... I wouldn't be surprised if it got the Avatar treatment and got a general stat buff alongside the point increase.
I'm hoping his invuln save will work against shooting now.
I think this is indicative of a change in the synapse/synapse creature rules...but what the change is, who knows?
Iirc endobai said something cryptic about synapse making warriors worth their points, so yeah, we should probably wait a bit before starting with the doom and gloom.
Formosa wrote: to all those expecting EW with synapse, its not happening
I'm a skeptic too, but i could see it happening. Mainly because synapse is such a army wide weak point. No other army is forced to maintain minimum distances between certain units. Granted you get fearless out of it but that has become a pretty common ability in other armys too. So I won't rule it out personally, not going to say it's going to happen. But.........
Formosa wrote: to all those expecting EW with synapse, its not happening
Quite.
If they took it from Greater Daemons, and didn't include a way of giving it back in some capacity, I don't see the justification for any Nids having it by default.
Just the cover art and dust jacket (possible you'll have two pics, the one on the book, one on the dust jacket), probably silver edging on the pages and a divider ribbon.
Maelstrom808 wrote: Without EW, almost all of the t4 multiwound models are practically a waste if they don't get some serious love from another direction.
I give you Bloodcrushers. Seriously, no Nid player should be getting too caught up in the idea of getting EW all over the shop, if anything, 6th Ed books have been making it less prevalent.
Wilytank wrote: I see no possible fluff explanation why Tyranids would get Eternal Warrior while Daemons don't.
Can you think of fluff justification for half the stuff in 40k tabletop, likeRiptides or Eldar being best friends with the Ordo Malleus? Let's face it, all they have to do is say something like "the hive mind remembers all memories of creatures it commands" and bam, justification for eternal warrior. They could even just say "gives them unbelievable toughness over a normal man" and that would be enough frankly.
Maelstrom808 wrote: Without EW, almost all of the t4 multiwound models are practically a waste if they don't get some serious love from another direction.
I give you Bloodcrushers. Seriously, no Nid player should be getting too caught up in the idea of getting EW all over the shop, if anything, 6th Ed books have been making it less prevalent.
Like I said, unless they get love from another source, they are practically a waste (much like bloodcrushers). I'm not hung up on EW, I'm hung up on the t4 multiwound assault models like warriors and lictors that attracted me to Nids in the first place. I'm pretty sick of gribbly and MC only builds.
Formosa wrote: to all those expecting EW with synapse, its not happening
Do you have proof to support your statement?
Until it is fully disproven, many - even non-Tyranid players - will hope it is included simply because it will make Warriors (we don't know how Raveners and other T4 W3 models have changed) far more viable than they appear to be.
Eyjio wrote: Let's face it, all they have to do is say something like "the hive mind remembers all memories of creatures it commands" and bam, justification for eternal warrior. They could even just say "gives them unbelievable toughness over a normal man" and that would be enough frankly.
So disposable lumps of biomass are more resilient than the energies of chaos?
I'm sure Space Marine chapters remember the deeds of their proud warriors. That would give Space marines Eternal Warrior, right?
There's no reason why a Tyranid Warrior would be more resilient than a daemon. I hate to be the one to trample the sandcastle, but the whole EW thing is wishful thinking. If daemons don't have it, tyranids sure as hell aren't.
Wilytank wrote: I see no possible fluff explanation why Tyranids would get Eternal Warrior while Daemons don't.
Can you think of fluff justification for half the stuff in 40k tabletop, likeRiptides or Eldar being best friends with the Ordo Malleus? Let's face it, all they have to do is say something like "the hive mind remembers all memories of creatures it commands" and bam, justification for eternal warrior. They could even just say "gives them unbelievable toughness over a normal man" and that would be enough frankly.
Though I agree it does seem unlikely.
That explanation was exactly what they used when synapse creatures did have Eternal Warrior in the 4th ed. Tyranid Codex. The Hive Mind was supposedly commanding even mortally wounded creatures and keeping them fighting in spite of their ultimately fatal wounds.
I wonder why they didn't give Space Marine characters Eternal Warrior because their usual creed is to not give up until their job is complete despite the severity of their wounds.
Tyranid multi wound critters won't have EW for the same reason daemons don't anymore. It gives your opponent a target that's weak to their anti-tank weapons. A major problem with the old daemon codex was that all your heavy weapons were meaningless when it was still just a wound. By giving an army with no tanks some units with a lot of t4-5 wounds your opponent still has something to justify all those expensive lascannons and powerfists.
Formosa wrote: to all those expecting EW with synapse, its not happening
Do you have proof to support your statement?
Until it is fully disproven, many - even non-Tyranid players - will hope it is included simply because it will make Warriors (we don't know how Raveners and other T4 W3 models have changed) far more viable than they appear to be.
Wait and see, but let's look at how deamons lost army wide eternal warrior, nids lost army wide eternal warrior, what makes you honestly believe nids will get it back.
The only thing warriors are getting is cheaper options and a small pts reduction.
To make warriors usefull they will need ew or another way of buffing them. As long as the swarmlord gets it i'll be happy. Warriors most likely wont see much table top time if they don't have ew or improved survivability of some sort.
Formosa wrote: Wait and see, but let's look at how deamons lost army wide eternal warrior, nids lost army wide eternal warrior, what makes you honestly believe nids will get it back.
The only thing warriors are getting is cheaper options and a small pts reduction.
Demons have e an invul save that everyone ignores in these discussions. That's a massive survivable to boost comparatively.
In addition, Warriors aren't getting a cost reduction according to current (multiple source) rumors.
Badablack wrote: Tyranid multi wound critters won't have EW for the same reason daemons don't anymore. It gives your opponent a target that's weak to their anti-tank weapons. A major problem with the old daemon codex was that all your heavy weapons were meaningless when it was still just a wound. By giving an army with no tanks some units with a lot of t4-5 wounds your opponent still has something to justify all those expensive lascannons and powerfists.
The T6+ W4+ models aren't enough of a target for anti-tank weapons? Come on now.
Cost of upgrades going down is a cost reduction, and I'm well aware what the current rumours are, I just disagree with a few of the minor details they are pumping out
The point I was making that started this EW devolution was that it makes no logic for everything to get a point drop while warrior-class models stay the same. Add in the fact that they're getting a new kit (which GW will need to sell to people who already have warriors) and it really doesn't add up.
I'm obviously biased, as I love my tyranids and miss the 4th edition EW rules. I get that. However if you look at the very narrow picture we have now 30+ point t4 3w 4+ Sv warriors are unusable in serious play. So EW, or a form of it (D3 wounds, I'm calling it) is a wishlist but an understandable one for nid players.
Formosa wrote: Cost of upgrades going down is a cost reduction, and I'm well aware what the current rumours are, I just disagree with a few of the minor details they are pumping out
But most didn't really take those cheaper upgrades anyway because Warriors don't *need* them. So really, they didn't go down in points at all for a lot of people. How are you disagreeing with confirmed details and a picture of their profile?
The simple reality is, unless they have Eternal Warrior or easily accessed Toughness boosts or something like that, they won't be worth 30 points each.
Formosa wrote: Cost of upgrades going down is a cost reduction, and I'm well aware what the current rumours are, I just disagree with a few of the minor details they are pumping out
... When you say "cheaper options and a cost reduction" you're talking about more than just cheaper options.
Don't get twisted because you worded your statement incorrectly.
And do you have evidence they're incorrect, or just assumptions?
I.understand the need, people will just be disappointed is all, I will be honest with you all, I had a look at the nid codex 4 week's ago, the short time I had to flick though it I didn't see anything about eternal warrior, several things stuck in my mind though, the lack of blast on venom cannons (my mate says this is a typo) the giant crab thing, I didn't see that goyls were troops (at least not in the troop slot) and did notice horms got cheaper, there is more, not getting my mate into trouble though by being specific on things I asked about. Suffice to say I don't believe some of these rumours.
I will call my mate ans just ask him if he can tell me what synapse does, that will probably sort out this whole ew thing
Formosa wrote: I.understand the need, people will just be disappointed is all, I will be honest with you all, I had a look at the nid codex 4 week's ago, the short time I had to flick though it I didn't see anything about eternal warrior, several things stuck in my mind though, the lack of blast on venom cannons (my mate says this is a typo) the giant crab thing, I didn't see that goyls were troops (at least not in the troop slot) and did notice horms got cheaper, there is more, not getting my mate into trouble though by being specific on things I asked about. Suffice to say I don't believe some of these rumours.
I will call my mate ans just ask him if he can tell me what synapse does, that will probably sort out this whole ew thing
Hey, I'm not having a go at you mate Just that I - like probably everyone that likes Warriors - are concerned about their rules.
If you looked through the codex and didn't see Eternal Warrior mentioned anywhere, it is probably a safe bet it isn't included.
However, I don't we can be blamed for being hopeful lol.
Badablack wrote: Tyranid multi wound critters won't have EW for the same reason daemons don't anymore. It gives your opponent a target that's weak to their anti-tank weapons. A major problem with the old daemon codex was that all your heavy weapons were meaningless when it was still just a wound. By giving an army with no tanks some units with a lot of t4-5 wounds your opponent still has something to justify all those expensive lascannons and powerfists.
The problem with middle rank bugs is that they are vulnerable to EVERYTHING.
Small bugs don't care about lascannons, as it's a small points loss per wound taken
Big bugs don't really care about small arms, as T6 and 3+ save shrug off a HEAP of firepower that would be more effective elsewhere.
So you have your opponent firing big guns into big bugs, and small arms into small bugs. The problem is that both small arms AND big guns wreck middle rank creatures at an awful rate.
Take a 40 point warrior for example (death spitter/rending claws runs 40 point I think). He's pretty crappy on the offensive front. Devours gants will far exceed his shooting, and pretty much anything in the book will make a mockery of his melee ability. The REAL problem though is points removed per wound suffered compared to other units in the book.
Average points of damage done per Bolter shot (BS4);
vs naked gant (5pts); 2.22 (1.48 in 5+ cover)
vs naked future gant (4 points); 1.8 (1.2 in 5+ cover)
vs warrior (40 pts); 2.22 (cover doesn't help at all)
vs shrike (50 points, twin-swords+toxin sacs); 5.555 (3.7 with a 5+ cover save)
vs Trygon/tervigon (210 points); 1.29 (cover doesn't help at all)
Average points of damage done per lascannon/missile launcher/bright lance...etc (BS4):
vs naked Gant (5 pts); 2.77
vs Warrior (40 pts); 22.22 (7.4 if they had eternal warrior)
vs shrike (50 points, twin-swords+toxin sacs); 27.77
vs Trygon/tervigon (210 points); 19.44
This is with 40 point warriors and 50 point shrikes, the numbers get increasingly worse as they go up in points, and god help the poor shrikes/raveners against bolter fire :(. As you can see, they are an optimal target for both small arms and large weapons fire power, and are only "good" against S5-7 firepower, as they strip wounds from MCs really well, and only do 1 wound to the warriors.
If the current warriors/shrike/ravener stats stand, they need about a 30% cost decrease to be effective (remember, gants are going to 4 points in the new book as well). That would put them at a maximum of 30 points with a solid offensive loadout.....and we know that is not happening. They absolutely CANNOT be an optimal target for both categories of weapons and be viable, they have to stand up to one or the other well. A 3+ save would make them champs against small arms, and eternal warrior fixes them against heavy weapons, T5 and W3 helps against both.....pick one option.
I wish they would go back to elite/HQ, so they could be made worthwhile even if it would squeeze our elites slot a bit more.
Here's a question about those leaked rule images (Termagants, Warriors and Stealers). If they are legit where did they come from? Has GW started printing copies? If so are they starting to ship? Was it from an advanced copy? A draft copy? Test print? What was the most likely source?
Formosa wrote:I.understand the need, people will just be disappointed is all, I will be honest with you all, I had a look at the nid codex 4 week's ago, the short time I had to flick though it I didn't see anything about eternal warrior, several things stuck in my mind though, the lack of blast on venom cannons (my mate says this is a typo) the giant crab thing, I didn't see that goyls were troops (at least not in the troop slot) and did notice horms got cheaper, there is more, not getting my mate into trouble though by being specific on things I asked about. Suffice to say I don't believe some of these rumours.
I will call my mate ans just ask him if he can tell me what synapse does, that will probably sort out this whole ew thing
Please do! Quickly and with haste!
Zookie wrote:Here's a question about those leaked rule images (Termagants, Warriors and Stealers). If they are legit where did they come from? Has GW started printing copies? If so are they starting to ship? Was it from an advanced copy? A draft copy? Test print? What was the most likely source?
Zookie wrote: Here's a question about those leaked rule images (Termagants, Warriors and Stealers). If they are legit where did they come from? Has GW started printing copies? If so are they starting to ship? Was it from an advanced copy? A draft copy? Test print? What was the most likely source?
Considering it is slotted to ship in January, It would have to be printed already.
Zookie wrote: Here's a question about those leaked rule images (Termagants, Warriors and Stealers). If they are legit where did they come from? Has GW started printing copies? If so are they starting to ship? Was it from an advanced copy? A draft copy? Test print? What was the most likely source?
Considering it is slotted to ship in January, It would have to be printed already.
But are they shipping to disruption sites yet? I am trying to figure at what point the photos were taken.
gigasnail wrote: no one cares about a fluff explanation for it, we'd just like the models to be a useful unit.
Welcome in the Chaos Space Marines Hell, enjoy your stay.
Wilytank wrote: I wonder why they didn't give Space Marine characters Eternal Warrior because their usual creed is to not give up until their job is complete despite the severity of their wounds.
Formosa wrote:I.understand the need, people will just be disappointed is all, I will be honest with you all, I had a look at the nid codex 4 week's ago, the short time I had to flick though it I didn't see anything about eternal warrior, several things stuck in my mind though, the lack of blast on venom cannons (my mate says this is a typo) the giant crab thing, I didn't see that goyls were troops (at least not in the troop slot) and did notice horms got cheaper, there is more, not getting my mate into trouble though by being specific on things I asked about. Suffice to say I don't believe some of these rumours.
I will call my mate ans just ask him if he can tell me what synapse does, that will probably sort out this whole ew thing
Darn! I was hoping they lost blast and became something like Heavy 3 or 4. Even salvo something. A Str9 AP4 small blast just isn't that awesome. Especially when it gives negatives to armor damage.
Zookie wrote: Here's a question about those leaked rule images (Termagants, Warriors and Stealers). If they are legit where did they come from? Has GW started printing copies? If so are they starting to ship? Was it from an advanced copy? A draft copy? Test print? What was the most likely source?
Considering it is slotted to ship in January, It would have to be printed already.
But are they shipping to disruption sites yet? I am trying to figure at what point the photos were taken.
Zookie wrote:Here's a question about those leaked rule images (Termagants, Warriors and Stealers). If they are legit where did they come from? Has GW started printing copies? If so are they starting to ship? Was it from an advanced copy? A draft copy? Test print? What was the most likely source?
They supposedly came from a White Dwarf that was in someone's hands at some point. They just released the information a couple days ago. That's about as specific as you're gonna get. They could have taken the pictures just a few moments before posting them, or several weeks later. It's basically unknown when they got hold of the info.
@Formosa - It is interesting that the giant crab thing (the Haruspex) stuck in your mind. Was that because of the model or the rules? If it was the rules, are you allowed to elaborate? The Exocrine and Crone already sound like pretty decent units but I am very interested to see how the Haruspex fares. Cheers by the way!
There's no reason why a Tyranid Warrior would be more resilient than a daemon.
Game balance would be a damn fine reason.
Unfortunately, while simply restoring Warriors to T5 would see them take to the field in droves GW seem set on ignoring the problem or massively overcompensating.
What I really hope for is a return of the Deathspitter to it's proper stats and functionality. There was no reason to turn it into a carbon copy of the Devourer.
Well nice to see the new picture the stuff looks pretty good to me.
The prices actually seem fairly reasonable not a huge increase in price and the boxes of 20 models for the brood at $33 bucks seems like a pretty good deals actually.
I think the models are nice and everything looks like its shaping up nicely!
Here is what an anonymous source over at Faeit212 suggest as content for the Tyranid swarm box:
40 Termagaunts
40 Hormagaunts
10 Gargoyles
1 Carnifex-with the options for One Eye
4 Ripper Swarms
Formosa wrote: I will call my mate ans just ask him if he can tell me what synapse does, that will probably sort out this whole ew thing
Maybe ask him about Doom, Parasite and Mycetic spores as well (whether those are still in the codex that is).
Yeah the giant crab thing stuck in my head because of the model, it had a grab attack thing I think worked like that blood angel gun, it also looked like bugs had universal access to basic biomorphs like space marine and special weapons in the army list "x can take any of the biomorphs from the x list" or something
Zookie wrote: Here's a question about those leaked rule images (Termagants, Warriors and Stealers). If they are legit where did they come from? Has GW started printing copies? If so are they starting to ship? Was it from an advanced copy? A draft copy? Test print? What was the most likely source?
Where is this image? I haven't been able to find it anywhere
Zookie wrote: Here's a question about those leaked rule images (Termagants, Warriors and Stealers). If they are legit where did they come from? Has GW started printing copies? If so are they starting to ship? Was it from an advanced copy? A draft copy? Test print? What was the most likely source?
Where is this image? I haven't been able to find it anywhere
Interesting note on the new tyrant guard. Looking at the new picture it seems like the new plate are a simple add on pieces. So, you can either ellect to keep them or hopefully they will be easy to fit on the old tyrant guard. Possibly meaning that if I buy a single box of hive/tyrant guard I can update my old ones while building more hive guard.
Zookie wrote: Here's a question about those leaked rule images (Termagants, Warriors and Stealers). If they are legit where did they come from? Has GW started printing copies? If so are they starting to ship? Was it from an advanced copy? A draft copy? Test print? What was the most likely source?
The books are likely printed well in advance so that they can have them ready for packaging and shipping on time. If we're looking at a January release for the codex and models, the models and the books are long since printed.
Ever since I saw the Warrior and Stealer sections from WD, I've had the feeling that Tyranids were going to get more of a tweak than overhaul. It's the norm for 6th edition anyway. It probably means some things won't get "fixed" but hopefully that means some other things don't get nerfed.
I'd love to see Warriors become a really strong choice, but again GW has a long tradition of overpricing non-MC multiwounds. It is what it is. *shrug*
honestly everyone getting hung up on EW is a little extreme in my opinion I honestly would be happy with an invuln save of some kind for synapse creatures. It could be more easily written in then EW all the would have to say is due to the hive minds infinite experience with combat it is able to predict the actions of opponents before the move, or something along those lines and that in itself would increase warrior durability enough to justify bringing them.
gorgon wrote: Ever since I saw the Warrior and Stealer sections from WD, I've had the feeling that Tyranids were going to get more of a tweak than overhaul. It's the norm for 6th edition anyway. It probably means some things won't get "fixed" but hopefully that means some other things don't get nerfed.
I'd love to see Warriors become a really strong choice, but again GW has a long tradition of overpricing non-MC multiwounds. It is what it is. *shrug*
at least according to rumors we have seen some major price drops across the board so far. I've honestly given up hope that Warriros will be viable in this dex, I guess we can hold out for four more years.
Overall, as long as we aren't shoehorned into one or two builds, and get a lot of good options I'll be really happy.
Honestly my thoughts for the new codex is "how cheap will it be to upgrade my army?"
There are 4 new kits:
Warriors seem to be pretty bad still, will not buy.
H/T Guard will be useful, but I don't like walking Tyrants and I already have 6 Hive Guard, so I anticipate being fine there.
New big MC will most likely have one of its variants be great. I'll have to buy at least one.
Harpy/Crone will also have one variant be noticeably better, so I'll have to buy one.
Codex (must buy)
So, if I can keep it around or below $200 to transition my army from 5th to 6th, I'll be happy. Maybe even less if I decide other units are better that were already existing, as I have a pretty decent collection... one can hope.
gorgon wrote: Ever since I saw the Warrior and Stealer sections from WD, I've had the feeling that Tyranids were going to get more of a tweak than overhaul. It's the norm for 6th edition anyway. It probably means some things won't get "fixed" but hopefully that means some other things don't get nerfed.
I'd love to see Warriors become a really strong choice, but again GW has a long tradition of overpricing non-MC multiwounds. It is what it is. *shrug*
at least according to rumors we have seen some major price drops across the board so far. I've honestly given up hope that Warriros will be viable in this dex, I guess we can hold out for four more years.
Overall, as long as we aren't shoehorned into one or two builds, and get a lot of good options I'll be really happy.
So the tweaks are:
1.) You may buy more models (same as before but less points)
2.) You may buy new models (new rules made to make it a must buy for competitive play).
gorgon wrote: Ever since I saw the Warrior and Stealer sections from WD, I've had the feeling that Tyranids were going to get more of a tweak than overhaul. It's the norm for 6th edition anyway. It probably means some things won't get "fixed" but hopefully that means some other things don't get nerfed.
I'd love to see Warriors become a really strong choice, but again GW has a long tradition of overpricing non-MC multiwounds. It is what it is. *shrug*
at least according to rumors we have seen some major price drops across the board so far. I've honestly given up hope that Warriros will be viable in this dex, I guess we can hold out for four more years.
Overall, as long as we aren't shoehorned into one or two builds, and get a lot of good options I'll be really happy.
So the tweaks are:
1.) You may buy more models (same as before but less points)
2.) You may buy new models (new rules made to make it a must buy for competitive play).
Would you honestly prefer:
3.) All the new stuff sucks and none of the existing models are getting new versions so you don't need to buy anything but your existing army becomes 12.6% stronger.
1.) You may buy more models (same as before but less points)
2.) You may buy new models (new rules made to make it a must buy for competitive play).
But.... if everyone who like Tyranids buys a few new models, is that such a terrible thing?
Because we like tyranids don't we? We, despite all our reservations, want GW to continue in business, don't we?
Personally, I'm a little worried, about issues as to whether synapse brings EW - but I'll resent the £££ spent on tyranids a great deal less than I will the ££ spent on that dreadful Desolation of Smaug movie.
There was a rumor a while back that the Tyranid Prime's "retinue" of Warriors would be upped to T5. That alone would make EW overall unnecessary. Warriors' lack of resistance to power fists and missile launchers is all that's heavily holding them back.
Raveners and Shrikes can (and should) pick their assaults and don't need EW. Bonus if this retinue can have wings.
If vehicles can be exploded with one well-placed high Strength shot, the monstrous Tyranids' vulnerability to Force weapons is a decent trade-off for being able to eat multiple anti-tank weapons before going down.
Eternal Warrior is not necessary. At their cost, Warriors are essentially Tyranids' version of Terminators.
Absolutionis wrote: There was a rumor a while back that the Tyranid Prime's "retinue" of Warriors would be upped to T5. That alone would make EW overall unnecessary. Warriors' lack of resistance to power fists and missile launchers is all that's heavily holding them back.
Raveners and Shrikes can (and should) pick their assaults and don't need EW. Bonus if this retinue can have wings.
If vehicles can be exploded with one well-placed high Strength shot, the monstrous Tyranids' vulnerability to Force weapons is a decent trade-off for being able to eat multiple anti-tank weapons before going down.
Eternal Warrior is not necessary. At their cost, Warriors are essentially Tyranids' version of Terminators.
And this is a good thing? The consensus among me and other TEQ players is that Termies (loyalist and to a lesser degree CSM) are way over-costed this Gen...
Absolutionis wrote: Eternal Warrior is not necessary. At their cost, Warriors are essentially Tyranids' version of Terminators.
That's an interesting comparison, especially since terminators are poor. I don't disagree with the comparison, and the tyranid warriors suffer from all of the same flaws that terminators do, mainly, they are extremely vulnerable, point for point to both heavy AND small arms weapons.
Warriors CAN be good without eternal warrior, but they are need a 3+ save, or T5, or buffs available from other units need to make up for the lack of improvements to the warriors themselves. Of course, if that's the case, then you are just tossing buffs on a mediocre unit, when you could be buffing an actually GOOD unit and getting more mileage of them. If the venomthrope and the new tyranid psychic powers are extremely solid we could get some mileage out of them, but I'm not holding my breath.
Frozen Ocean wrote: Except Warriors can never get Thunderhammers, Storm Shields, combi-weapons, assault cannons, teleporters, Land Raiders, or be Deathwing.
That's because those are Imperial Weapons. That is an astute observation, however. I've always wondered why Tyranids never got Land Raiders. I guess that's because they're not Imperial after all.
Tyranids have their own variants with Bone Swords, Catalyst, two guns, Venom Cannons, Raveners, Mycetic Spores, and they can come as Troops (respectively). Blame the wargear instead of making observations that Tyranids don't get Land Raiders. Regardless, this doesn't address the point that neither Warriors nor Terminators have eternal warrior.
FINALLY!! after reading all 37 pages (my work may have suffered during the course of following this thread)
I have to say I for one am extremely stoked for the new codex. I don't think there will be to many disappointments once it's released. Granted things look bleak for Genestealers Hormagaunts and Warriors but I honestly think the biomorphs, army wide rules and possible synapse buffs will help out with any short comings they might suffer. Even if they don't every codex I've looked at has had short comings in units that will likely never see the table because of them. In this case it's just unfortunately units that are popular with the people playing them.
No one has mentioned anything of warlord traits either that I can remember (tons of info not all of it stuck I don't think) and since I've been waiting for the new codex I haven't read the current one to see if there are any in there.
As it stands right now I'm just taking everything rules wise with a grain of salt. Even the pics of the unit stats I don't trust completely. they're too blurry to say if they're legit or not.
Hivefleet Oblivion wrote: But.... if everyone who like Tyranids buys a few new models, is that such a terrible thing?
Would it be such a terrible thing to make Genestealers, Lictors and gaunt hordes actually playable or finally release models for Parasite, Doom and Mycetic spores?
Hivefleet Oblivion wrote: But.... if everyone who like Tyranids buys a few new models, is that such a terrible thing?
Would it be such a terrible thing to make Genestealers, Lictors and gaunt hordes actually playable or finally release models for Parasite, Doom and Mycetic spores?
People already own all those models, what would be the point of making them useful, GW are a business not a charity, they want to sell new models and they know people will buy them if they are better than the old stuff.
That seems to be the general consensus; I play Tau usually so I'm not sure exactly what the rules for assault are but as I understand it you can't run and assault (which seems dopey to me) so the extra 3" won't prevent the unit getting shot at least 2 more times (both likely in rapid fire range)
They should have a rule to allow them to charge after running. They are meant to be leaping little things after all, and in 6th ed they aren't as effective due to the change in fleet.
Adding additional inches to run isn't as helpful as people seem to think. Extra run just gets you into the range of their guns faster. With the volume of shooting that you see these days, a 30-man hormagaunt squad can melt in a turn pretty easily.
Now, extra inches to assault would be nice. But GW hates you for assaulting. So.
Regarding the "GW makes the newest models better so they sell" theory... the last decent flyer we got was the helldrake. Every other flyer we've got has been ass. Mutlilators were ass, the best units in CSM are oblits, PM's and Helldrakes. DA flyers were ass, their old units are all the best units. Tau flyers are ass, though the riptide is great. Eldar flyers are ass, best unit the dex is the wave serpent, though the WK is good. Best unit in the SM dex are bikes, though centurions are okay.
So ratio wise, the majority of new models/units introduced haven't really been all that good. Can we consider this theory officially debunked?
Brutal Viking wrote: That seems to be the general consensus; I play Tau usually so I'm not sure exactly what the rules for assault are but as I understand it you can't run and assault (which seems dopey to me) so the extra 3" won't prevent the unit getting shot at least 2 more times (both likely in rapid fire range)
One of the big issues I have had with assault units - even those with Fleet - is that I keep messing up my Run moves and it costs me another turn of being shot at. However, the new Hormagaunts run a minimum of 4", which basically means no matter how bad my Run moves are I'm probably not going to have to deal with that extra turn of being shot at.
Say you are playing the long edge deployment, 48" from the back of your board edge to the opponents' on the 6x4. If you deploy on 12", then even only Run 4" a turn, Hormagaunts are going to be covering a minimum of 10" a turn - though of course cover can slow them down, in which case they also have Move Through Cover. The average they will be moving each turn is around 14" due to Fleet. Combine that with re-rolls on random charge length and even against a gunline list you should expect a turn three charge at worst.
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BlaxicanX wrote: Adding additional inches to run isn't as helpful as people seem to think. Extra run just gets you into the range of their guns faster. With the volume of shooting that you see these days, a 30-man hormagaunt squad can melt in a turn pretty easily.
Now, extra inches to assault would be nice. But GW hates you for assaulting. So.
Regarding the "GW makes the newest models better so they sell" theory... the last decent flyer we got was the helldrake. Every other flyer we've got has been ass. Mutlilators were ass, the best units in CSM are oblits, PM's and Helldrakes. DA flyers were ass, their old units are all the best units. Tau flyers are ass, though the riptide is great. Eldar flyers are ass, best unit the dex is the wave serpent, though the WK is good. Best unit in the SM dex are bikes, though centurions are okay.
So ratio wise, the majority of new models/units introduced haven't really been all that good. Can we consider this theory officially debunked?
That's just the thing I guess, if the core mechanics themselves don't work, what can be done? Still, I think it is fair to say Hormagaunts will pop up more simply because they did improve - but how much they show up is yet to be seen. I know it is unlikely after the leaked Termagant profile, but if Hormagaunts get either Adrenal Glands or Toxin Sacs for 1 point per model that will be superb.
And yes, that theory has long been debunked, no question. People just cling to it so they have something else to whinge about when a codex gets redone. On that note, from what I can see, the new monsters may not even necessarily be the best units in the codex. The Crone and the Exocrine look to have good rules, but significant points drops to units such as the Tyrannofex and Carnifex could make them stand-outs if they get any other changes.
Caederes wrote: Hey, wait a minute as I have an honest question here.
People still think Hormagaunts will suck even though they are 5 points per model and add 3" to their Run moves?
Well, this hasn't been confirmed yet. 5 pts per model would definitely help them out. It would be even better if their upgrades weren't 2 ppm like the current dex. A toxin gaunt currently costs 8 points. If a toxin gaunt only costs 6 pts in the new book that would be excellent.
Changing their run mechanic is more complex. Currently they roll 3d6 to run and keep the highest roll. With Fleet, this is basically a guaranteed 6 inch run. With +3 to run presumably replacing the 3d6 keep the highest, and Fleet, I don't know whether this is actually an upgrade or a nerf. Someone who has the time to Mathahmmer it could tell us. It seems to my naive eye that they would gain about an inch or two of movement each player turn, over the old book. Not too hot, unfortunately. But maybe with points decreases, changes to the biomorphs, and a slight increase in speed, they can be more viable.
Well, it's more reliable. With this supposed change you will always have a +3 movement, as opposed to the current system. Then again, you do only have a 1/3 chance of getting a number less than a 3 on a die.
Caederes wrote: Hey, wait a minute as I have an honest question here.
People still think Hormagaunts will suck even though they are 5 points per model and add 3" to their Run moves?
Well, this hasn't been confirmed yet. 5 pts per model would definitely help them out. It would be even better if their upgrades weren't 2 ppm like the current dex. A toxin gaunt currently costs 8 points. If a toxin gaunt only costs 6 pts in the new book that would be excellent.
Changing their run mechanic is more complex. Currently they roll 3d6 to run and keep the highest roll. With Fleet, this is basically a guaranteed 6 inch run. With +3 to run presumably replacing the 3d6 keep the highest, and Fleet, I don't know whether this is actually an upgrade or a nerf. Someone who has the time to Mathahmmer it could tell us. It seems to my naive eye that they would gain about an inch or two of movement each player turn, over the old book. Not too hot, unfortunately. But maybe with points decreases, changes to the biomorphs, and a slight increase in speed, they can be more viable.
They were confirmed by Endobai to be 1 point cheaper per model, so 5 points per model. The funny thing is the 3D6 could also be re-rolled which gave you an incredibly high chance of a 6" run. However, there was always potential for a bad roll - I've seen people roll triple 1s twice in a row! The new ones kept Fleet IIRC, the new Run an extra 3" is from the "new" Bounding Leap. Their average Run move went up 2" and their maximum Run move went up by 3". It seems minor but I've found when I actually go for those Fleet charges those extra few inches make a big difference, especially with how quickly Hormagaunts die off. I think though that what they really needed was a points drop and while I would have preferred they went down to 4 points the same as Termagants, it seems like they will at least be ok now.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Well, it's more reliable. With this supposed change you will always have a +3 movement, as opposed to the current system. Then again, you do only have a 1/3 chance of getting a number less than a 3 on a die.
I want to say that 3d6 keep the highest, with the ability to re-roll any and all dice is more reliable? Am I mistaken here?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Well, it's more reliable. With this supposed change you will always have a +3 movement, as opposed to the current system. Then again, you do only have a 1/3 chance of getting a number less than a 3 on a die.
I want to say that 3d6 keep the highest, with the ability to re-roll any and all dice is more reliable? Am I mistaken here?
It's difficult to say. The odds of rolling no higher than a 4 or a 3 are incredibly low on effectively 3D6x2. However, the minimum Run move of the new ones is 4", and the new ones still have Fleet. I'm not good at math-hammering so I will let someone else do it lol. However, for 'average' rolls, the new Hormagaunts are quicker for sure.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Well, it's more reliable. With this supposed change you will always have a +3 movement, as opposed to the current system. Then again, you do only have a 1/3 chance of getting a number less than a 3 on a die.
I want to say that 3d6 keep the highest, with the ability to re-roll any and all dice is more reliable? Am I mistaken here?
Still not as reliable as a guaranteed +3. There's always the chance of rolling all 1's on your reroll.
It like the old thought experiment which iirc goes like this
You have a choice between a 100% chance for 1000 dollars, or a 75% chance for 2000 dollars. Which one would you prefer?
It reminds of their 5th Edition days. Move 6". Run 3D6 pick the highest (incredibly likely to have a 5 or a 6 in there). Charge 6". The average 'assault range' back then 17". Nowadays, it is probably about 15", though with a far greater variable length.
To me they do seem like quite a bit better unit, they got two confirmed minimal changes to make them a bit more useable with Overwatch and random charge lengths around. Hopefully they actually become a viable competitor to Termagants again. On that note, has anyone noticed how Termagants outclass Cultists for the same points cost?
My brother plays CSM and has been whining about the points decreases for Termagants.
I argue that you can't really compare points/units directly without consider their role and place in the codex. Otherwise Orks should be overpowered because they have the cheapest strongest Troop. Think about what Orks get for their points and Termagants don't compare. Especially Cultists.
rollawaythestone wrote: My brother plays CSM and has been whining about the points decreases for Termagants.
I argue that you can't really compare points/units directly without consider their role and place in the codex. Otherwise Orks should be overpowered because they have the cheapest strongest Troop. Think about what Orks get for their points and Termagants don't compare. Especially Cultists.
Oh I know, trust me, having played all three armies. Ork Boyz still are the most cost effective by far. In saying that though, I'm very happy with Termagants now!
Hivefleet Oblivion wrote: But.... if everyone who like Tyranids buys a few new models, is that such a terrible thing?
Would it be such a terrible thing to make Genestealers, Lictors and gaunt hordes actually playable or finally release models for Parasite, Doom and Mycetic spores?
People already own all those models, what would be the point of making them useful, GW are a business not a charity, they want to sell new models and they know people will buy them if they are better than the old stuff.
That argument has been defeated a number of times before (in this thread alone). A lot of new models have not been assigned to super playable units.
Anyway, Warriors, Hormagaunts, and Genestealers may not have needed to change, if the rest of the book is better. What I mean is, we are trying to compare them in a vacuum, and not thinking of what the rest of the book will bring against the 6th edition armies. The threat saturation, new unit entries, and nearly army-wide points reductions may have been enough to give the opponent more to worry about than what a 6-man brood of Genestealers is doing. Those units may all get into combat more effectively simply because the opponent will have to waste more time firing at the Hive Tyrant, Brood of 2 Carnifex, 2 Haruspex, and 3 Harpies coming at them, all while a Tervigon is endlessly pooping out Termagants on the objectives.
You guys act like an opponent will drop everything to fire the (likely ZERO) S8 weapons in their army only at a brood of Warriors. Or every unit of theirs will be perfectly nestled in cover (never happens) in the only place the Genestealers and Hormagaunts could possibly launch an assault (only if the Tyranid player is terrible does this happen).
It's not about changing each individual unit for their weaknesses. Tyranids aren't Space Wolves where every 5-man unit can be perfectly kitted out for every situation all at once. It's about changing the way the whole book functions to create more questions than opponents can answer.
Hivefleet Oblivion wrote: But.... if everyone who like Tyranids buys a few new models, is that such a terrible thing?
Would it be such a terrible thing to make Genestealers, Lictors and gaunt hordes actually playable or finally release models for Parasite, Doom and Mycetic spores?
People already own all those models, what would be the point of making them useful, GW are a business not a charity, they want to sell new models and they know people will buy them if they are better than the old stuff.
That argument has been defeated a number of times before (in this thread alone). A lot of new models have not been assigned to super playable units.
Anyway, Warriors, Hormagaunts, and Genestealers may not have needed to change, if the rest of the book is better. What I mean is, we are trying to compare them in a vacuum, and not thinking of what the rest of the book will bring against the 6th edition armies. The threat saturation, new unit entries, and nearly army-wide points reductions may have been enough to give the opponent more to worry about than what a 6-man brood of Genestealers is doing. Those units may all get into combat more effectively simply because the opponent will have to waste more time firing at the Hive Tyrant, Brood of 2 Carnifex, 2 Haruspex, and 3 Harpies coming at them, all while a Tervigon is endlessly pooping out Termagants on the objectives.
You guys act like an opponent will drop everything to fire the (likely ZERO) S8 weapons in their army only at a brood of Warriors. Or every unit of theirs will be perfectly nestled in cover (never happens) in the only place the Genestealers and Hormagaunts could possibly launch an assault (only if the Tyranid player is terrible does this happen).
It's not about changing each individual unit for their weaknesses. Tyranids aren't Space Wolves where every 5-man unit can be perfectly kitted out for every situation all at once. It's about changing the way the whole book functions to create more questions than opponents can answer.
Not to be a downer, but you do realize it was this kind of logic that Cruddace used to do the 5th Edition Tyranid book? He over-priced individual units because he was afraid the "synergy" would be too strong. If Warriors themselves are over-priced and not worthwhile, no amount of "working within the army" will change that. They will still be an over-priced and generally not worthwhile unit. And before you repeat yourself, does an army like Necrons pay for "synergy". No. Each unit pays for their abilities. The synergy comes from how you use them together. There is no "they have to pay for that synergy" crap. And yes, I know Tyranids are a lot different. But if each individual unit was priced as they should be, the "synergy" would come naturally, not feel forced as it currently does with Warriors.
It's like taking a crutch unit (Tigurius) to make an otherwise average unit (Centurions) work. It doesn't change the fact that the unit itself isn't as good as it should be.
And before you start, I take target saturation lists to make units such as Warriors work. And while they do work within my army, again, it doesn't change the fact that I am paying points for *other units I might not otherwise use* to make them work.
Anyway, Warriors, Hormagaunts, and Genestealers may not have needed to change, if the rest of the book is better. What I mean is, we are trying to compare them in a vacuum, and not thinking of what the rest of the book will bring against the 6th edition armies. The threat saturation, new unit entries, and nearly army-wide points reductions may have been enough to give the opponent more to worry about than what a 6-man brood of Genestealers is doing. Those units may all get into combat more effectively simply because the opponent will have to waste more time firing at the Hive Tyrant, Brood of 2 Carnifex, 2 Haruspex, and 3 Harpies coming at them, all while a Tervigon is endlessly pooping out Termagants on the objectives.
You guys act like an opponent will drop everything to fire the (likely ZERO) S8 weapons in their army only at a brood of Warriors. Or every unit of theirs will be perfectly nestled in cover (never happens) in the only place the Genestealers and Hormagaunts could possibly launch an assault (only if the Tyranid player is terrible does this happen).
It's not about changing each individual unit for their weaknesses. Tyranids aren't Space Wolves where every 5-man unit can be perfectly kitted out for every situation all at once. It's about changing the way the whole book functions to create more questions than opponents can answer.
The problem with the nid codex is that there are not many priority targets for the S8 stuff to shoot at. It is not like nids are putting lots of vehicles on the table, like some other armies can. Thus, the high strength shots go right into MC and things like Warriors.
Anyway, Warriors, Hormagaunts, and Genestealers may not have needed to change, if the rest of the book is better. What I mean is, we are trying to compare them in a vacuum, and not thinking of what the rest of the book will bring against the 6th edition armies. The threat saturation, new unit entries, and nearly army-wide points reductions may have been enough to give the opponent more to worry about than what a 6-man brood of Genestealers is doing. Those units may all get into combat more effectively simply because the opponent will have to waste more time firing at the Hive Tyrant, Brood of 2 Carnifex, 2 Haruspex, and 3 Harpies coming at them, all while a Tervigon is endlessly pooping out Termagants on the objectives.
You guys act like an opponent will drop everything to fire the (likely ZERO) S8 weapons in their army only at a brood of Warriors. Or every unit of theirs will be perfectly nestled in cover (never happens) in the only place the Genestealers and Hormagaunts could possibly launch an assault (only if the Tyranid player is terrible does this happen).
It's not about changing each individual unit for their weaknesses. Tyranids aren't Space Wolves where every 5-man unit can be perfectly kitted out for every situation all at once. It's about changing the way the whole book functions to create more questions than opponents can answer.
The problem with the nid codex is that there are not many priority targets for the S8 stuff to shoot at. It is not like nids are putting lots of vehicles on the table, like some other armies can. Thus, the high strength shots go right into MC and things like Warriors.
There's potentially a lot of targets for S8. Hive Tyrants, Trygons, Mawlocs, Tervigons, Tyrannofexes, Carnifexes, Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, and more I'm forgetting. This release is adding Haruspexes and Exocrines to the list. The problem is they're not costed appropriately to get sufficient saturation to prive a real targetting choice. Everything that you'd target with S8+ is so expensive there's never many of them on the table.
They could easily get that proper saturation working if they redid the points costs to make taking more MC's a viable strategy, without adding anything special to Warriors themselves.
Anyway, Warriors, Hormagaunts, and Genestealers may not have needed to change, if the rest of the book is better. What I mean is, we are trying to compare them in a vacuum, and not thinking of what the rest of the book will bring against the 6th edition armies. The threat saturation, new unit entries, and nearly army-wide points reductions may have been enough to give the opponent more to worry about than what a 6-man brood of Genestealers is doing. Those units may all get into combat more effectively simply because the opponent will have to waste more time firing at the Hive Tyrant, Brood of 2 Carnifex, 2 Haruspex, and 3 Harpies coming at them, all while a Tervigon is endlessly pooping out Termagants on the objectives.
You guys act like an opponent will drop everything to fire the (likely ZERO) S8 weapons in their army only at a brood of Warriors. Or every unit of theirs will be perfectly nestled in cover (never happens) in the only place the Genestealers and Hormagaunts could possibly launch an assault (only if the Tyranid player is terrible does this happen).
It's not about changing each individual unit for their weaknesses. Tyranids aren't Space Wolves where every 5-man unit can be perfectly kitted out for every situation all at once. It's about changing the way the whole book functions to create more questions than opponents can answer.
The problem with the nid codex is that there are not many priority targets for the S8 stuff to shoot at. It is not like nids are putting lots of vehicles on the table, like some other armies can. Thus, the high strength shots go right into MC and things like Warriors.
There's potentially a lot of targets for S8. Hive Tyrants, Trygons, Mawlocs, Tervigons, Tyrannofexes, Carnifexes, Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, and more I'm forgetting. This release is adding Haruspexes and Exocrines to the list. The problem is they're not costed appropriately to get sufficient saturation to prive a real targetting choice. Everything that you'd target with S8+ is so expensive there's never many of them on the table.
They could easily get that proper saturation working if they redid the points costs to make taking more MC's a viable strategy, without adding anything special to Warriors themselves.
Which is what is rumored to be happening, with several MCs being dropped 40-60 points. Not sure if it's enough, but it might be.
According to BoLS and originating from a fellow apparently in possession of an early WD, the information was gleaned that Carnies are 120 pts base. Not to mention other significant point drops, which seems to be putting all current MCs under the two hundred mark or so.
CleverAntics wrote: According to BoLS and originating from a fellow apparently in possession of an early WD, the information was gleaned that Carnies are 120 pts base. Not to mention other significant point drops, which seems to be putting all current MCs under the two hundred mark or so.
Also the Swarmlord got bumped up to 285, and the Tervigon got a slight price increase(estimated to be 10-20pts). So far, the only MC with a base cost of over 200pts is the Swarmlord(or rumored to be).
Hivefleet Oblivion wrote: But.... if everyone who like Tyranids buys a few new models, is that such a terrible thing?
Would it be such a terrible thing to make Genestealers, Lictors and gaunt hordes actually playable or finally release models for Parasite, Doom and Mycetic spores?
CleverAntics wrote: According to BoLS and originating from a fellow apparently in possession of an early WD, the information was gleaned that Carnies are 120 pts base. Not to mention other significant point drops, which seems to be putting all current MCs under the two hundred mark or so.
I can live with this. Even -40pts, plus however cheaper weapons become, is fine. Hopefully they get an Armoured Shell upgrade back as well.
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Sparkadia wrote: If 'Fexes become worthwhile again, this could be a severe hit to my wallet. Can't resist those big stompy blokes.
I've got 2, and contemplating a 3rd. If I can fit a brood of 3 comfortably in 1500pts, plus other MC's, I'll be chuffed.
Would be nice, as I think grounding is a stupid rule anyway. But since all the flyers with Hover mode also come on a flying stand, I wouldn't count on it.
What does everyone think will happen to hormagaunts? Will they make them more playable than they are now? Started nids again a few months ago when I heard about the new codex. I've so far got a tervigon, flyrant, trygon, and 30 termagaunts painted. Going to make a start on my 30 hormagaunts too on the hope that they'll be useable
The tyrant guard is growing on me. I didn't like it first, but every time I look at it and think of it in my colours, I like it a bit more. I'm hoping it's just a bad angle fit the photo.
James811 wrote: What does everyone think will happen to hormagaunts? Will they make them more playable than they are now? Started nids again a few months ago when I heard about the new codex. I've so far got a tervigon, flyrant, trygon, and 30 termagaunts painted. Going to make a start on my 30 hormagaunts too on the hope that they'll be useable
Well if you are a non-tournament player, then just get the units you like the most from the army books and the novels. I enjoy my big guys in the middle of a swarm of small creatures. I try to play my swarm as bodies over bullets. So my casualities are as big as my enemy's or even higher. So from my point of you I recommend you more gaunts. They do well against most enemies. The rumoured price reduction would be beneficial to this idea. But each unit has a specified object in battle, so you will need all kind of units and choose individually before each battle.
Well anyway, the new flyers and big guys will be a double pack must for my army, but not so much the smaller units, as I think I have enough of them. But who knows ... Maybe on the day I run around like teenie girl, whose favoured boygroup is coming to her hometown.
-Loki- wrote: The tyrant guard is growing on me. I didn't like it first, but every time I look at it and think of it in my colours, I like it a bit more. I'm hoping it's just a bad angle fit the photo.
Endobai described the Tyrant Guard as looking much better in other pictures. He especially liked it when it was equipped with Crushing Claws.
gauckelnder_narr wrote: I have ten Carnifexes and 5 Tyrants and all the other as a double combo. So I would love to have them cheaper.
I hope the spore capsule transport stays, otherwise I have to make homebreed rules for my six transport spore pods from CHS
I have 10 fexes and 5 tyrants as well!
My Mycetic Spores will turn into beautiful terrain I'm afraid :(
If the leaked rules are real and warriors have the very bulky special rule I think that is some kind of indication that spores are still in or some other kind of transport.
gauckelnder_narr wrote: I have ten Carnifexes and 5 Tyrants and all the other as a double combo. So I would love to have them cheaper.
I hope the spore capsule transport stays, otherwise I have to make homebreed rules for my six transport spore pods from CHS
I have 10 fexes and 5 tyrants as well!
My Mycetic Spores will turn into beautiful terrain I'm afraid :(
If the leaked rules are real and warriors have the very bulky special rule I think that is some kind of indication that spores are still in or some other kind of transport.
Or it could just be for consistency. To cover all bases, you know?
Besides, I think there's some apoc unit that can transport dudes.
How do people feel about 200 point tyrannofexs? Seeing as how people (myself included) will be mostly moving away from fielding multiple tervigons, it gives another way to field the model (assuming most sensible people magnetize tyranids).
AesSedai wrote: How do people feel about 200 point tyrannofexs? Seeing as how people (myself included) will be mostly moving away from fielding multiple tervigons, it gives another way to field the model (assuming most sensible people magnetize tyranids).
I didn't magnetize, but I'll love an excuse to buy the model again
Even at 200 points, a Tyrannofex with Rupture cannon would be too unreliable for its cost to depend on it as long rang anti-tank if it keeps its current stats. If it becomes a lot cheaper, it could be become a nice linebreaker for its points; just give it stuff like the acid spray and force it down the opponent's throat.
Redemption wrote: Even at 200 points, a Tyrannofex with Rupture cannon would be too unreliable for its cost to depend on it as long rang anti-tank if it keeps its current stats. If it becomes a lot cheaper, it could be become a nice linebreaker for its points; just give it stuff like the acid spray and force it down the opponent's throat.
I didn't magnetize mine, so I'm thinking I'll probably need to pick up another kit for either the Aid Spray or Fleshborer Hive. We'll have to see I suppose, as the Exocrine could just totally outclass the Tfex.
If the leaked rules are real and warriors have the very bulky special rule I think that is some kind of indication that spores are still in or some other kind of transport.
I agree.
GW would never miss an opportunity to make Warriors worse. 9 Warriors in a pod was one of the only ways to play them and it still was not very good.
If the leaked rules are real and warriors have the very bulky special rule I think that is some kind of indication that spores are still in or some other kind of transport.
I agree.
GW would never miss an opportunity to make Warriors worse. 9 Warriors in a pod was one of the only ways to play them and it still was not very good.
Been over this already...it has no bearing on transport options. Witness Obliterators, Chaos Spawn, Broadsides, Crisis suits, etc.
If the leaked rules are real and warriors have the very bulky special rule I think that is some kind of indication that spores are still in or some other kind of transport.
I agree.
The Hierophant is able to transport Tyranid units in Apoc.
The change doesn't mean that there are transports in the new codex. It signifies nothing other than GW introducing some consistency. The approach seems to be that models are being categorised on base size:
40mm = Bulky
50mm = Very Bulky
60mm = Extremely Bulky
Perhaps we'll see GW use this rule for more than just transports in future expansions or 7th edition once most codexes are updated. As mentioned above, there's already a Forgeworld unit that doesn't increased damage against larger base sizes. I wouldn't be surprised if we see more rules of this nature in future.
James811 wrote: What does everyone think will happen to hormagaunts? Will they make them more playable than they are now? Started nids again a few months ago when I heard about the new codex. I've so far got a tervigon, flyrant, trygon, and 30 termagaunts painted. Going to make a start on my 30 hormagaunts too on the hope that they'll be useable
Well if you are a non-tournament player, then just get the units you like the most from the army books and the novels. I enjoy my big guys in the middle of a swarm of small creatures. I try to play my swarm as bodies over bullets. So my casualities are as big as my enemy's or even higher. So from my point of you I recommend you more gaunts. They do well against most enemies. The rumoured price reduction would be beneficial to this idea. But each unit has a specified object in battle, so you will need all kind of units and choose individually before each battle.
Well anyway, the new flyers and big guys will be a double pack must for my army, but not so much the smaller units, as I think I have enough of them. But who knows ... Maybe on the day I run around like teenie girl, whose favoured boygroup is coming to her hometown.
It's always the hope that all the units will be amenable to tournament players ... because if they are, they'll be amenable to non-tournament players as well. Whereas if they are "bad" units, they might not be very playable unless you're gaming with a good friend who can tweak his army down to let a game between your preferred but badly-balanced models and his army be actually engaging and fun (as opposed to a curb-stomp).
As a person who has owned Tyranid models for nearly 20 years, with some ridiculous untold thousands-of-points # of them lying around in various states, my fingers are crossed it'll be a popular and effective codex at all levels of play.
Now it could be that i just missed it. But there is tons of talk of spores getting removed from the game and everyone thinks that is the case.
However, if you looked at the supposedly leaked rules page, it states warriors as very bulky, doesn't that mean they count as additional models in transport?
If this is so, we are either losing the spore, or getting new transport, right?
mr.man_lightning wrote: Now it could be that i just missed it. But there is tons of talk of spores getting removed from the game and everyone thinks that is the case.
However, if you looked at the supposedly leaked rules page, it states warriors as very bulky, doesn't that mean they count as additional models in transport?
If this is so, we are either losing the spore, or getting new transport, right?
No. It could be for consistency. It could be because one of the Apocalypse Gargantuan creatures can be a transport. It could be to enable weapons like that experimental Tau suit.
Nothing to do with there being a Transport or not.
I'm curious what the crone's mouth weapon is, and if it will be considered a turret weapon. Depending on points, rules, and the rumored extra foc slots, an army of 3 flyrants and 3 harpies/crones could be powerful.
l0k1 wrote: I'm curious what the crone's mouth weapon is, and if it will be considered a turret weapon. Depending on points, rules, and the rumored extra foc slots, an army of 3 flyrants and 3 harpies/crones could be powerful.
Monstrous Creatures don't use the vehicle rules - they have 360-degree LoS for all weapons, and don't have turrets.
l0k1 wrote: I'm curious what the crone's mouth weapon is, and if it will be considered a turret weapon. Depending on points, rules, and the rumored extra foc slots, an army of 3 flyrants and 3 harpies/crones could be powerful.
Monstrous Creatures don't use the vehicle rules - they have 360-degree LoS for all weapons, and don't have turrets.
Thanks! Now I'm just curious about the crone's rules and weapon profiles.
mr.man_lightning wrote: Now it could be that i just missed it. But there is tons of talk of spores getting removed from the game and everyone thinks that is the case.
However, if you looked at the supposedly leaked rules page, it states warriors as very bulky, doesn't that mean they count as additional models in transport?
If this is so, we are either losing the spore, or getting new transport, right?
They are not the first models labeled "very bulky" that don't have a dedicated transport, if I'm not mistaken. Obliterators, some sort of Battlesuit, etc.
Could be there's a gargantuan creature on the way, or it's just for consistency (to avoid the FAQ).
Redemption wrote: And it is used for garrisoning units inside buildings.
Tyranids using fortification?
Well, I guess it makes about as much sense as Genestealers that can't make it into combat and fire support units that have BS3, so why not?
Tyranids using fortifications isn't all that crazy. Hive Tyrants direct swarms tactically. A Tyrant could easily decide that x abandoned building will give his Tyranids an advantage and order them into it. Tyrants are supposed to be able to out-think Imperial/Tau commanders.
It's bio plasma, it also has 2 profiles, one is heavy 4 str7 ap2, other is large blast, it's the anti flyer mc thst nids have.
The harpy has an attack that is similar to the stasis bomb when it flys over enemy units, it also drops different types of spore mines (upgrades I think), venom cannons have lost the blast too, I have been told this is a typo however
Formosa wrote: It's bio plasma, it also has 2 profiles, one is heavy 4 str7 ap2, other is large blast, it's the anti flyer mc thst nids have.
The harpy has an attack that is similar to the stasis bomb when it flys over enemy units, it also drops different types of spore mines (upgrades I think), venom cannons have lost the blast too, I have been told this is a typo however
I hope it's not a typo. I really do. Any idea on the strength/ap? Stayed the same?
mr.man_lightning wrote: Now it could be that i just missed it. But there is tons of talk of spores getting removed from the game and everyone thinks that is the case.
However, if you looked at the supposedly leaked rules page, it states warriors as very bulky, doesn't that mean they count as additional models in transport?
If this is so, we are either losing the spore, or getting new transport, right?
They are not the first models labeled "very bulky" that don't have a dedicated transport, if I'm not mistaken. Obliterators, some sort of Battlesuit, etc.
Could be there's a gargantuan creature on the way, or it's just for consistency (to avoid the FAQ).
The hierophant can get an upgrade to work like a transport for 20 models, that'd mean that you can't make it carry a full squad of warriors :/
mr.man_lightning wrote:Now it could be that i just missed it. But there is tons of talk of spores getting removed from the game and everyone thinks that is the case.
However, if you looked at the supposedly leaked rules page, it states warriors as very bulky, doesn't that mean they count as additional models in transport?
If this is so, we are either losing the spore, or getting new transport, right?
Yeah you missed the discussion we had on the last page, it was indentical to the one now on this page.
mr.man_lightning wrote:Now it could be that i just missed it. But there is tons of talk of spores getting removed from the game and everyone thinks that is the case.
However, if you looked at the supposedly leaked rules page, it states warriors as very bulky, doesn't that mean they count as additional models in transport?
If this is so, we are either losing the spore, or getting new transport, right?
Yeah you missed the discussion we had on the last page, it was indentical to the one now on this page.
mr.man_lightning wrote:Now it could be that i just missed it. But there is tons of talk of spores getting removed from the game and everyone thinks that is the case.
However, if you looked at the supposedly leaked rules page, it states warriors as very bulky, doesn't that mean they count as additional models in transport?
If this is so, we are either losing the spore, or getting new transport, right?
Yeah you missed the discussion we had on the last page, it was indentical to the one now on this page.
Hasn't it been on this page twice already?
Yeah but the first was quite a few pages back, so easily forgive able to miss. But on the last page, shows you didn't miss something, you just didn't look.
mr.man_lightning wrote:Now it could be that i just missed it. But there is tons of talk of spores getting removed from the game and everyone thinks that is the case.
However, if you looked at the supposedly leaked rules page, it states warriors as very bulky, doesn't that mean they count as additional models in transport?
If this is so, we are either losing the spore, or getting new transport, right?
Yeah you missed the discussion we had on the last page, it was indentical to the one now on this page.
Hasn't it been on this page twice already?
Yeah but the first was quite a few pages back, so easily forgive able to miss. But on the last page, shows you didn't miss something, you just didn't look.
Maybe it should be in the thread title at this point...
mr.man_lightning wrote:Now it could be that i just missed it. But there is tons of talk of spores getting removed from the game and everyone thinks that is the case.
However, if you looked at the supposedly leaked rules page, it states warriors as very bulky, doesn't that mean they count as additional models in transport?
If this is so, we are either losing the spore, or getting new transport, right?
Yeah you missed the discussion we had on the last page, it was indentical to the one now on this page.
Hasn't it been on this page twice already?
Yeah but the first was quite a few pages back, so easily forgive able to miss. But on the last page, shows you didn't miss something, you just didn't look.
Maybe it should be in the thread title at this point...
Formosa wrote: It's bio plasma, it also has 2 profiles, one is heavy 4 str7 ap2, other is large blast, it's the anti flyer mc thst nids have.
The harpy has an attack that is similar to the stasis bomb when it flys over enemy units, it also drops different types of spore mines (upgrades I think), venom cannons have lost the blast too, I have been told this is a typo however
Why aren't more people discussing how awesome this is? The Crone is 155 points with a confirmed Strength 8 Vector Strike (and all that implies). Now we know it can also shoot 4 S7 AP2 shots from its mouth (we still don't know what the missiles do!) or a presumably AP2 large blast. Holy sh*t. This thing will absolutely murder pretty much any flyer in the game.
Caederes wrote: Why aren't more people discussing how awesome this is? The Crone is 155 points with a confirmed Strength 8 Vector Strike (and all that implies). Now we know it can also shoot 4 S7 AP2 shots from its mouth (we still don't know what the missiles do!) or a presumably AP2 large blast. Holy sh*t. This thing will absolutely murder pretty much any flyer in the game.
Too many missing details. If it's still a FMC, with all that implies, one failed grounding test & Bad Things happen to it (ranging from tarpitting to Tau gunlines). Unlike Daemons, Tyranid FMCs haven't had invulnerable saves so far, and the current Harpy is absurdly vulnerable to small arms fire.
That is similar to what a Crimson Hunter can put out in damage. The difference being that as it will have wounds it will be harder to take down that AV10.
155 pts seems quite cheap so its going to likely have a laundry list of upgrades...
Shingen wrote: Same bio plasma that Carnifex's can have?
Hmm, I would think not honestly. Bio Plasma on Carnifexes' has always seemed more like just a pure vomit thing and would probably stay as a S7 AP2 small blast, or even be repurposed into a (Torrent or not) Template weapon. If it is though that would be sick.
@Janthkin - But it is 155 points. If it was like 180 or something I would agree, but the damage output of it is insane for the cost. I'm betting it does have higher stats than the old Harpy too, if Formosa could give us an idea on it and the Harpy's stats that would save us a lot of discussion lol.
I'm honestly surprised the weapon isn't a flamer though. Still, I think this is probably better, as it will also have utility against vehicles. I'm guessing the large blast is S8 AP2, again similar to the Exocrine, giving up 4 S7 AP2 shots (or 6 in the Exocrine's case) probably means the large blast is S8+ AP2. Which would, in conjunction with the Vector Strike, also ironically make this thing one of the best counters to Warriors and other T4 W2-3 models
Zookie wrote: Here's a question about those leaked rule images (Termagants, Warriors and Stealers). If they are legit where did they come from? Has GW started printing copies? If so are they starting to ship? Was it from an advanced copy? A draft copy? Test print? What was the most likely source?
Where is this image? I haven't been able to find it anywhere
They're just snippets of the codex printed inside the new WD, hence the poor quality.
At +4 points per model for scything talons on genestealers, could that mean the return of +1 attack per scything talon like 4th ed? (IIRC that is the same cost as in the 4th ed codex)
That would justify the point cost over other things that have been suggested.
Odd - Termagants can take Stranglewebs and Spike Rifles still, but there's no model for them. Since GW are pretty determined to not have even weapon options missing anymore, we might be seeing a second wave of models.
-Loki- wrote: Odd - Termagants can take Stranglewebs and Spike Rifles still, but there's no model for them. Since GW are pretty determined to not have even weapon options missing anymore, we might be seeing a second wave of models.
I wondered that too. Along with the port from Finecast, that might leave a 2nd wave like this:
-Loki- wrote: Odd - Termagants can take Stranglewebs and Spike Rifles still, but there's no model for them. Since GW are pretty determined to not have even weapon options missing anymore, we might be seeing a second wave of models.
I wondered that too. Along with the port from Finecast, that might leave a 2nd wave like this:
To be fair, it was very obvious wishlisting. +30pts to spawn 4D6 gaunts per turn without constipating? Never was going to happen, ever.
I don't play nids yet as I've been waiting for the new codex to drop buti read it on another sight so I thought I would ask... even the no burnout would be nice. Seems like such a waste of a unit/points if you take one strictly to spawn gaunts and it loses that ability.
To be fair, it was very obvious wishlisting. +30pts to spawn 4D6 gaunts per turn without constipating? Never was going to happen, ever.
I don't play nids yet as I've been waiting for the new codex to drop buti read it on another sight so I thought I would ask... even the no burnout would be nice. Seems like such a waste of a unit/points if you take one strictly to spawn gaunts and it loses that ability.
Someone who takes a Tervigon strictly to churn out Termagants is doing it very wrong. It's a Monstrous Creature with a high number of attacks when upgraded with Crushing Claws that can Smash at S10, a very resiliant synapse point, can take 3 Biomancy powers, hands out Toxin Sacs and Adrenal glands to nearby Termagant units for free and is a scoring unit if you also take 10 Termagants. It's well worth its points without the Termagant spawning ability. I've had my Tervigon constipate itself on turn 1 and still bring plenty to the battle.
-Loki- wrote: Odd - Termagants can take Stranglewebs and Spike Rifles still, but there's no model for them. Since GW are pretty determined to not have even weapon options missing anymore, we might be seeing a second wave of models.
I wondered that too. Along with the port from Finecast, that might leave a 2nd wave like this:
The codex will probably tell us more, as the Dark Elves army book had pictures of the 2nd wave of models before they hit.
That would be a fine second wave and would clear out what's left of the Finecast units, but I doubt we'll get something that extensive. GW were quite happy leaving Aspect Warriors in Finecase and they made some pretty logical dual or triple kits.
But still, the inclusion of Stranglewebs and Spikerifles is intriguing. Considering GW don't like hybrind upgrade packs aside from stop gaps, their inclusion hints at a future release, whether it's an upgrade pack or recut box.
Someone who takes a Tervigon strictly to churn out Termagants is doing it very wrong. It's a Monstrous Creature with a high number of attacks when upgraded with Crushing Claws that can Smash at S10, a very resiliant synapse point, can take 3 Biomancy powers, hands out Toxin Sacs and Adrenal glands to nearby Termagant units for free and is a scoring unit if you also take 10 Termagants. It's well worth its points without the Termagant spawning ability. I've had my Tervigon constipate itself on turn 1 and still bring plenty to the battle.
This. Expecting a Tervigon to earn its points by spawning would be expecting it to spawn at least 40. I'm sure someone has managed that many in a game, but it is definitely unusual.
Someone who takes a Tervigon strictly to churn out Termagants is doing it very wrong. It's a Monstrous Creature with a high number of attacks when upgraded with Crushing Claws that can Smash at S10, a very resiliant synapse point, can take 3 Biomancy powers, hands out Toxin Sacs and Adrenal glands to nearby Termagant units for free and is a scoring unit if you also take 10 Termagants. It's well worth its points without the Termagant spawning ability. I've had my Tervigon constipate itself on turn 1 and still bring plenty to the battle.
This. Expecting a Tervigon to earn its points by spawning would be expecting it to spawn at least 40. I'm sure someone has managed that many in a game, but it is definitely unusual.
I agree. And I also hope needing to take 30 gaunts to unlock it as trrops is true. I've read about plenty of games where the Nid player's army collapsed once the Tervigons were taken out since they had only taken the minimum number of Gaunts to unlock them.
Someone who takes a Tervigon strictly to churn out Termagants is doing it very wrong. It's a Monstrous Creature with a high number of attacks when upgraded with Crushing Claws that can Smash at S10, a very resiliant synapse point, can take 3 Biomancy powers, hands out Toxin Sacs and Adrenal glands to nearby Termagant units for free and is a scoring unit if you also take 10 Termagants. It's well worth its points without the Termagant spawning ability. I've had my Tervigon constipate itself on turn 1 and still bring plenty to the battle.
This. Expecting a Tervigon to earn its points by spawning would be expecting it to spawn at least 40. I'm sure someone has managed that many in a game, but it is definitely unusual.
I agree. And I also hope needing to take 30 gaunts to unlock it as trrops is true. I've read about plenty of games where the Nid player's army collapsed once the Tervigons were taken out since they had only taken the minimum number of Gaunts to unlock them.
You are HOPING for less flexibility? What? Nothing is stopping you from running 30 if you choose, but forcing it is just adding a tax to taking a tervigon in practice. Why force unit selection at all, especially with what 6th edition has become with allies, dataslates, escalation, the fortification book and the INQ codex. The FoC is almost completely irrelevant for imperial armies, and they are slapping more constraints on Nids? Doesn't make much sense to me.
Granted, Tervigons were staring both the barrel of the nerf gun, but this is not the direction I would have gone.
Someone at my group remarked about the Haruspex being what happens when the Tyranids smoke a few too many cigarettes. Cancer of the mouth never looked so hideous. Ate a few too many Salamanders maybe?
To be fair, it was very obvious wishlisting. +30pts to spawn 4D6 gaunts per turn without constipating? Never was going to happen, ever.
I don't play nids yet as I've been waiting for the new codex to drop buti read it on another sight so I thought I would ask... even the no burnout would be nice. Seems like such a waste of a unit/points if you take one strictly to spawn gaunts and it loses that ability.
Someone who takes a Tervigon strictly to churn out Termagants is doing it very wrong. It's a Monstrous Creature with a high number of attacks when upgraded with Crushing Claws that can Smash at S10, a very resiliant synapse point, can take 3 Biomancy powers, hands out Toxin Sacs and Adrenal glands to nearby Termagant units for free and is a scoring unit if you also take 10 Termagants. It's well worth its points without the Termagant spawning ability. I've had my Tervigon constipate itself on turn 1 and still bring plenty to the battle.
I had no idea, thanks for clarifying
Automatically Appended Next Post: It burns out if you roll doubles right?
Shingen wrote: Same bio plasma that Carnifex's can have?
Hmm, I would think not honestly. Bio Plasma on Carnifexes' has always seemed more like just a pure vomit thing and would probably stay as a S7 AP2 small blast, or even be repurposed into a (Torrent or not) Template weapon. If it is though that would be sick.
@Janthkin - But it is 155 points. If it was like 180 or something I would agree, but the damage output of it is insane for the cost. I'm betting it does have higher stats than the old Harpy too, if Formosa could give us an idea on it and the Harpy's stats that would save us a lot of discussion lol.
I'm honestly surprised the weapon isn't a flamer though. Still, I think this is probably better, as it will also have utility against vehicles. I'm guessing the large blast is S8 AP2, again similar to the Exocrine, giving up 4 S7 AP2 shots (or 6 in the Exocrine's case) probably means the large blast is S8+ AP2. Which would, in conjunction with the Vector Strike, also ironically make this thing one of the best counters to Warriors and other T4 W2-3 models
To me it seems logical that the blast version would stay S7 AP2. Why would the strength go up? It also makes the most sense to me if the Carnifex version of bioplasma is identical (other than perhaps being a small blast, if in fact the Crone's is a large... which seems less likely than it being a small one as well).
On the topic of the Crone's damage output, don't forget that the parasite missiles are probably one-use, buy individually type weapons. Also, the range of bioplasma might stay locked at its current 12". For all we know, the S8 Vector Strike is also a purchaseable upgrade (tangentially, that might have a nice upside, if the same upgrade is available to the Harpy -- going on the leaked pictures, it does have those extra spines on its back, which do not appear on the Crone picture... they could just be irrelevant bits used to distinguish the Harpy from the Crone, but they could also be actual upgrades/weapons).
All in all the Crone seems like a prototypical glass cannon. They might end up being the kind of thing you need to field two of to really make work.
-Loki- wrote: Odd - Termagants can take Stranglewebs and Spike Rifles still, but there's no model for them. Since GW are pretty determined to not have even weapon options missing anymore, we might be seeing a second wave of models.
Perhaps eventually, but I doubt it would be any time soon. These weapons date back to 2E, and it costs GW nothing to leave the options in for now.
Eldar are in a similar situation, they have several old options still in their codex from previous editions without a proper model yet; some Exarch weapons, jetbike Warlocks and Farseers, etc.
The same logic used with the Riptide's Ion Accelerator. If you give up 4 S7 shots, the large blast should be S8 to compensate. Of couse though, the Ion Accelerator also has Gets Hot for the large blast too, but it is only giving up 3 S7 shots instead. People forget that hitting a lot of models with large blasts when they are spaced out correctly is rare at best, which is why there would have to be an incentive to use it over regular shots. I don't think the Carnifexes' will be similar simply for the role the two perform. One is an anti-air flyer, the other is a ground 'tank'. Again, that one makes more sense to stay as a plasma cannon shot or as a template weapon of some sort. All they have to do is fix the darn range.
It was 155 in the battle report, and that is where the "leakers" found the Strength 8 Vector Strike and the "really strong" anti-air missiles used, so it is safe to say it has those base. Besides, why would a flying monstrous creature have to pay to use its' Vector Strike? What do the spines have to do with a Vector Strike? What would its base Strength be? Sorry, but it was described as having the S8 Vector Strike in the battle report, and it was shown at 155 points. Maybe it is an upgrade, but that would mean the Crone's base cost would be lower than 155, not the other way around. But since no upgrades were mentioned for it, I don't think it matters anyway. And look at its mouth, if that is what is modeled on the mouth, it is fair to say that comes stock with it. So 155 with all the guns, that seems right certain. The missiles are quite obviously one use, because every other missile on a flyer so far in 6th Edition is one-use as well. That isn't necessarily a bad thing as, again, it has a S8 Vector Strike and 4 S7 AP2 shots. If the missiles are even halfway decent, i.e. S7 AP3 Heavy 1, then that is more than enough firepower for the points. The issue for me is if it uses its Vector Strike, it can only shoot one missile afterwards.
Yes, the only issue there seems to be how it rates defensively. If it is T5 W4 4+, it will be the Tyranid equivalent of the Crimson Hunter. If however it has T6 W4 3+ like a current Hive Tyrant, then it will be a steal. The tidbits we've seen so far paint it in a very good light. Now, everyone remembers the battle report FUD from the Nephilim but something tells me this won't be the same.
I agree. And I also hope needing to take 30 gaunts to unlock it as trrops is true. I've read about plenty of games where the Nid player's army collapsed once the Tervigons were taken out since they had only taken the minimum number of Gaunts to unlock them.
You are HOPING for less flexibility? What? Nothing is stopping you from running 30 if you choose, but forcing it is just adding a tax to taking a tervigon in practice. Why force unit selection at all, especially with what 6th edition has become with allies, dataslates, escalation, the fortification book and the INQ codex. The FoC is almost completely irrelevant for imperial armies, and they are slapping more constraints on Nids? Doesn't make much sense to me.
This is just a sensible cap on min/maxed lists, especially alongside the points drop for Termagants. Taking 3 units of 10 was always silly and I'm glad they're adding some sensible limits.
Plus this isn't exactly a 'tax' on Tervigons switching FOC slots - you're still getting another unit of decent troops to use. It's not like you're paying 120pts purely to move to another slot, you're getting a 30-model unit your opponent has to deal with (which you will also undoubtedly be able to buff easily).
Just a bit of a thought on the defensive stats of the new Tyranid monsters.
Generally speaking, the defensive stats of many monsters is related in no small way to their size. A Daemon Prince is T5 W4, while a much beefier and stocky Carnifex is T6 W4. Riptides are about the same size as Trygons and Mawlocs, and thus it has T6 W5, while they have T6 W6. Dreadknights aren't that large and thus have T6 W4, while the gargantuan Wraithknight has T8 W6. My point here is that given that the Harpy and the Crone are going to be the two largest Flying Monstrous Creatures in a regular 40k codex by far now, as the only ones on flying stands - their proportions are roughly the same as a Heldrake - I honestly cannot see them having similar defensive stats (minus the invulnerable save) to a Daemon Prince. A Heldrake with its wing span takes up roughly three times or more the real estate a Daemon Prince does, and so will the Harpy an Crone. Can you honestly see the biggest Flying Monstrous Creatures in the game having puny T5 W4? I don't see it, which is why I think they will be T6 W5 at the least. As to the armour save, well, they don't look *as* well armoured as a Carnifex or Tervigon, but they do have what would usually qualify as a Bonded Exoskeleton on the other monsters. In short, I'm expecting the flyers to be T6 W5 3+.
Now, the Exocrine and the Haruspex are a bit of a different matter. They appear to be on the standard 'monster' oval bases, which would actually make them smaller than the Tyrannofex and Tervigon who are T6 W6 respectively. That gives me reason to believe they would be T6 W5, because they appear to fill that middle-ground between a Carnifex and a Tyrannofex in terms of size. The Haruspex appears to be bulkier than the Exocrine, which could manifest either as a boosted armour save - say, 2+ to the Exocrine's 3+ - or as a Toughness boost so as not to encroach too much on the T6 W6 monsters - T7 on the Haruspex, T6 on the Exocrine. I'm going to make the obvious call and say neither will have a 4+ armour save, simply because no "ground" Tyranid monstrous creature has an armour save worse than a 3+ - and yes, I'm not counting the Mycetic Spore for obvious reasons. Thinking about it though, the Haruspex and Exocrine are certainly a lot bulkier - like with the Carnifex to a Daemon Prince - than the Tyrannofex and Tervigon who take obvious cues from the front heavy Hierophant. With that in mind, I'm predicting the Haruspex will probably be T7 W5 2+, while the Exocrine will be T7 W5 3+. Whether those stats fit for the 170 point Exocrine are yet to be decided though, as the new codex will presumably have T6 W4 3+ Carnifexes at a confirmed 110-130 base cost.
I'm just spitballing and getting some thoughts off of my chest, feel free to tear them down if you wish My excitement for this codex is really palpable, I guess! I could be hilariously wrong, I could be quite accurate. I just honestly don't think that, at least in the case of the fliers, they will be T5 W4 4+ like the old Harpy. If Formosa can interject on these stats that would be awesome as, honestly, I'm doubtful they will fit the bill. Still, going off the way the current codex distinguishes size in terms of overall durability for monstrous creatures, stats similar to those wouldn't surprise me. Sorry for wasting your time
It has been mentioned a few times that there would be a Tyrannic War Veterans dataslate as well as a Vanguard Swarm dataslate. I don't know anything about their validity though, sorry.
The same logic used with the Riptide's Ion Accelerator. If you give up 4 S7 shots, the large blast should be S8 to compensate. Of couse though, the Ion Accelerator also has Gets Hot for the large blast too, but it is only giving up 3 S7 shots instead. People forget that hitting a lot of models with large blasts when they are spaced out correctly is rare at best, which is why there would have to be an incentive to use it over regular shots. I don't think the Carnifexes' will be similar simply for the role the two perform. One is an anti-air flyer, the other is a ground 'tank'. Again, that one makes more sense to stay as a plasma cannon shot or as a template weapon of some sort. All they have to do is fix the darn range.
It was 155 in the battle report, and that is where the "leakers" found the Strength 8 Vector Strike and the "really strong" anti-air missiles used, so it is safe to say it has those base. Besides, why would a flying monstrous creature have to pay to use its' Vector Strike? What do the spines have to do with a Vector Strike? What would its base Strength be? Sorry, but it was described as having the S8 Vector Strike in the battle report, and it was shown at 155 points. Maybe it is an upgrade, but that would mean the Crone's base cost would be lower than 155, not the other way around. But since no upgrades were mentioned for it, I don't think it matters anyway. And look at its mouth, if that is what is modeled on the mouth, it is fair to say that comes stock with it. So 155 with all the guns, that seems right certain. The missiles are quite obviously one use, because every other missile on a flyer so far in 6th Edition is one-use as well. That isn't necessarily a bad thing as, again, it has a S8 Vector Strike and 4 S7 AP2 shots. If the missiles are even halfway decent, i.e. S7 AP3 Heavy 1, then that is more than enough firepower for the points. The issue for me is if it uses its Vector Strike, it can only shoot one missile afterwards.
Yes, the only issue there seems to be how it rates defensively. If it is T5 W4 4+, it will be the Tyranid equivalent of the Crimson Hunter. If however it has T6 W4 3+ like a current Hive Tyrant, then it will be a steal. The tidbits we've seen so far paint it in a very good light. Now, everyone remembers the battle report FUD from the Nephilim but something tells me this won't be the same.
Disclaimer; I'm not very familiar with the Tau codex, other than through internet lore, since my only Tau opponent has not yet updated his army for 6th edition.
That said, aren't there better comparisons to make than the Riptide? For one thing, I'm assuming the Riptide has a BS of at least 4, meaning those individual shots will be more likely to land than anything fired by a BS3 Tyranid. The Tau player needs more of an incentive than the Tyranid player to switch over to the blast template mode. To me, a better comparison would be the way Cluster Spines and Stinger Salvos compare in the current Tyranid codex. The Salvo shots hit slightly harder, because they're harder to hit with. The Cluster will connect with more models, but packs less punch. I think that will be closer to the trade-off that multiple bioplasma firing modes would entail. And let's be realistic, you can hit a LOT more than four models (or the BS3 average of 2 hits) with a large template, even if they're spaced out at max coherency.
Fair point about the Crone cost vs. the hypothetical spine upgrades -- even if they were an upgrade, that must have been included in the 155 points reported by the batrep. I don't understand your questions about how the upgrade would work, though. All FMCs have the native ability to perform Vector Strikes, at their strength value. So that's how it would work for the Crone if the S8 option was an upgrade. Do WD batreps have an armylist section that displays all the weapons and upgrades on every unit? If they do, I'm somewhat surprised we haven't heard more about that stuff (ie. the correct name for the parasite missiles!)
Someone who takes a Tervigon strictly to churn out Termagants is doing it very wrong. It's a Monstrous Creature with a high number of attacks when upgraded with Crushing Claws that can Smash at S10, a very resiliant synapse point, can take 3 Biomancy powers, hands out Toxin Sacs and Adrenal glands to nearby Termagant units for free and is a scoring unit if you also take 10 Termagants. It's well worth its points without the Termagant spawning ability. I've had my Tervigon constipate itself on turn 1 and still bring plenty to the battle.
This. Expecting a Tervigon to earn its points by spawning would be expecting it to spawn at least 40. I'm sure someone has managed that many in a game, but it is definitely unusual.
I agree. And I also hope needing to take 30 gaunts to unlock it as trrops is true. I've read about plenty of games where the Nid player's army collapsed once the Tervigons were taken out since they had only taken the minimum number of Gaunts to unlock them.
You are HOPING for less flexibility? What? Nothing is stopping you from running 30 if you choose, but forcing it is just adding a tax to taking a tervigon in practice. Why force unit selection at all, especially with what 6th edition has become with allies, dataslates, escalation, the fortification book and the INQ codex. The FoC is almost completely irrelevant for imperial armies, and they are slapping more constraints on Nids? Doesn't make much sense to me.
Granted, Tervigons were staring both the barrel of the nerf gun, but this is not the direction I would have gone.
Maybe they want to make other options more viable instead of needing to take more than one Tervigon to be competitive. I don't a ton about competitive Tyranid play but I remember seeing them used a ton.
Disclaimer; I'm not very familiar with the Tau codex, other than through internet lore, since my only Tau opponent has not yet updated his army for 6th edition.
That said, aren't there better comparisons to make than the Riptide? For one thing, I'm assuming the Riptide has a BS of at least 4, meaning those individual shots will be more likely to land than anything fired by a BS3 Tyranid. The Tau player needs more of an incentive than the Tyranid player to switch over to the blast template mode. To me, a better comparison would be the way Cluster Spines and Stinger Salvos compare in the current Tyranid codex. The Salvo shots hit slightly harder, because they're harder to hit with. The Cluster will connect with more models, but packs less punch. I think that will be closer to the trade-off that multiple bioplasma firing modes would entail. And let's be realistic, you can hit a LOT more than four models (or the BS3 average of 2 hits) with a large template, even if they're spaced out at max coherency.
Fair point about the Crone cost vs. the hypothetical spine upgrades -- even if they were an upgrade, that must have been included in the 155 points reported by the batrep. I don't understand your questions about how the upgrade would work, though. All FMCs have the native ability to perform Vector Strikes, at their strength value. So that's how it would work for the Crone if the S8 option was an upgrade. Do WD batreps have an armylist section that displays all the weapons and upgrades on every unit? If they do, I'm somewhat surprised we haven't heard more about that stuff (ie. the correct name for the parasite missiles!)
The Riptide is BS3, but of course as a Tau that may change thanks to markerlights.
The same logic used with the Riptide's Ion Accelerator. If you give up 4 S7 shots, the large blast should be S8 to compensate. Of couse though, the Ion Accelerator also has Gets Hot for the large blast too, but it is only giving up 3 S7 shots instead. People forget that hitting a lot of models with large blasts when they are spaced out correctly is rare at best, which is why there would have to be an incentive to use it over regular shots. I don't think the Carnifexes' will be similar simply for the role the two perform. One is an anti-air flyer, the other is a ground 'tank'. Again, that one makes more sense to stay as a plasma cannon shot or as a template weapon of some sort. All they have to do is fix the darn range.
It was 155 in the battle report, and that is where the "leakers" found the Strength 8 Vector Strike and the "really strong" anti-air missiles used, so it is safe to say it has those base. Besides, why would a flying monstrous creature have to pay to use its' Vector Strike? What do the spines have to do with a Vector Strike? What would its base Strength be? Sorry, but it was described as having the S8 Vector Strike in the battle report, and it was shown at 155 points. Maybe it is an upgrade, but that would mean the Crone's base cost would be lower than 155, not the other way around. But since no upgrades were mentioned for it, I don't think it matters anyway. And look at its mouth, if that is what is modeled on the mouth, it is fair to say that comes stock with it. So 155 with all the guns, that seems right certain. The missiles are quite obviously one use, because every other missile on a flyer so far in 6th Edition is one-use as well. That isn't necessarily a bad thing as, again, it has a S8 Vector Strike and 4 S7 AP2 shots. If the missiles are even halfway decent, i.e. S7 AP3 Heavy 1, then that is more than enough firepower for the points. The issue for me is if it uses its Vector Strike, it can only shoot one missile afterwards.
Yes, the only issue there seems to be how it rates defensively. If it is T5 W4 4+, it will be the Tyranid equivalent of the Crimson Hunter. If however it has T6 W4 3+ like a current Hive Tyrant, then it will be a steal. The tidbits we've seen so far paint it in a very good light. Now, everyone remembers the battle report FUD from the Nephilim but something tells me this won't be the same.
Disclaimer; I'm not very familiar with the Tau codex, other than through internet lore, since my only Tau opponent has not yet updated his army for 6th edition.
That said, aren't there better comparisons to make than the Riptide? For one thing, I'm assuming the Riptide has a BS of at least 4, meaning those individual shots will be more likely to land than anything fired by a BS3 Tyranid. The Tau player needs more of an incentive than the Tyranid player to switch over to the blast template mode. To me, a better comparison would be the way Cluster Spines and Stinger Salvos compare in the current Tyranid codex. The Salvo shots hit slightly harder, because they're harder to hit with. The Cluster will connect with more models, but packs less punch. I think that will be closer to the trade-off that multiple bioplasma firing modes would entail. And let's be realistic, you can hit a LOT more than four models (or the BS3 average of 2 hits) with a large template, even if they're spaced out at max coherency.
Fair point about the Crone cost vs. the hypothetical spine upgrades -- even if they were an upgrade, that must have been included in the 155 points reported by the batrep. I don't understand your questions about how the upgrade would work, though. All FMCs have the native ability to perform Vector Strikes, at their strength value. So that's how it would work for the Crone if the S8 option was an upgrade. Do WD batreps have an armylist section that displays all the weapons and upgrades on every unit? If they do, I'm somewhat surprised we haven't heard more about that stuff (ie. the correct name for the parasite missiles!)
Yeah Riptides are Ballistic Skill 3 mate, so basically the Exocrine and Crone are likely to have the same kind of thing if tradition holds. As far as Stinger Salvo and Cluster Spines, the only difference aside from the way they are fired is that Stinger Salvos are AP4 and Cluster Spines are AP-. However, the Stinger Salvo only hits 2 models on average anyway. IMO *especially* for the Exocrine the large blast has to be something special, i.e. S8-9 Ordnance simply because, even unlike the Riptide, that is *6* S7 shots you are giving up. If the Riptide at BS3 has to have S8 on its blast, it makes sense that the Crone and Exocrine both with (presumably) BS3 and *more S7 shots* would want even more reason to swap over. As far as large blasts go, I was referring more to how many they usually hit. Tyranid ones are even more inaccurate than usual, and most are lucky to hit more than 4 models, if that, I've found. A direct hit on 2" perfectly spaced models, depending on the formation, I think can hit 5 models if you place it and it doesn't scatter. I use large blast weapons a lot - from Vindicators to Night Spinners to Riptides and so on - and I'm usually very lucky to hit any more than that. Of course though, not all opponents take the time to do the 2" max coherency.
As a side note that I think needs mentioning, the BS of the Riptide almost doesn't matter
That was what I was saying. Your post seemed to imply it was an upgrade for the Vector Strike but the White Dwarf had it as part of the unit, so that is my mistake. As far as the profile goes, the White Dwarf army list section *only* displays the unit and any upgrades they have taken as well as the total points costs. That is why we don't know anything about the names of the guns and so on.
Altruizine wrote: All in all the Crone seems like a prototypical glass cannon. They might end up being the kind of thing you need to field two of to really make work.
Seems like a good bet. MC spam in general should help them. My early, poorly-informed, possibly-wildly-wrong opinion is that things are pointing to Nidzilla's return in a major way.
Altruizine wrote: All in all the Crone seems like a prototypical glass cannon. They might end up being the kind of thing you need to field two of to really make work.
Seems like a good bet. MC spam in general should help them. My early, poorly-informed, possibly-wildly-wrong opinion is that things are pointing to Nidzilla's return in a major way.
Hell yes, especially if one of the monsters has moved to Elites, whether it be a new one or Carnifexes - though Carnifexes make the most sense. Much, much cheaper for the most part in terms of points, and presumably improved in profile as well.
From the rumours I think we will be able to run a hoard army or a mc army, with the mc army probably being better but the hoard army will being better than it is right now. Flying mc spam is the way to go I think. 3 flyrants and 3 harpy/crone with a couple of squads of troops because FOC says you have to sounds so good! Especially if they make the harpy/crone a flyer and non groundable. I can't wait for this codex!!!
Altruizine wrote: All in all the Crone seems like a prototypical glass cannon. They might end up being the kind of thing you need to field two of to really make work.
Seems like a good bet. MC spam in general should help them. My early, poorly-informed, possibly-wildly-wrong opinion is that things are pointing to Nidzilla's return in a major way.
Hell yes, especially if one of the monsters has moved to Elites, whether it be a new one or Carnifexes - though Carnifexes make the most sense. Much, much cheaper for the most part in terms of points, and presumably improved in profile as well.
We could use some FOC-shifting/expanding abilities in general. Tyranids have a pretty sizeable back-catalogue of units and I'll bet we'll see certain slots overcrowded with decent units just like Elites were in 5E.
I also wonder if he'll be part of a carn brood or by himself, fluff says he's a leader beast after all.
