James811 wrote: From the rumours I think we will be able to run a hoard army or a mc army, with the mc army probably being better but the hoard army will being better than it is right now. Flying mc spam is the way to go I think. 3 flyrants and 3 harpy/crone with a couple of squads of troops because FOC says you have to sounds so good! Especially if they make the harpy/crone a flyer and non groundable. I can't wait for this codex!!!
I don't think you'll be able to take 3 Flyrants, but this is the feeling I'm getting too. I think there will be some FOC shennanigans to make up for the fact that we can't take allies, mostly a la Tervigon to troops, or possibly things like Hive Commander (or other upgrades to Tyrants) bringing cheaper Carnifexes to Elites to help relieve some of the Heavy Support log jam we presumably will have with the Haruspex and Exocrine joining that slot.
The Harpy/Crone look amazing, and the rumors surrounding the Crone seem pretty fantastic, so I'm looking forward to taking the first Fast Attack choices in my history as a Tyranid player (since 4th ed).
Altruizine wrote: All in all the Crone seems like a prototypical glass cannon. They might end up being the kind of thing you need to field two of to really make work.
Seems like a good bet. MC spam in general should help them. My early, poorly-informed, possibly-wildly-wrong opinion is that things are pointing to Nidzilla's return in a major way.
Hell yes, especially if one of the monsters has moved to Elites, whether it be a new one or Carnifexes - though Carnifexes make the most sense. Much, much cheaper for the most part in terms of points, and presumably improved in profile as well.
We could use some FOC-shifting/expanding abilities in general. Tyranids have a pretty sizeable back-catalogue of units and I'll bet we'll see certain slots overcrowded with decent units just like Elites were in 5E.
I agree, though if Ymgarls (rumoured) and the Doom (confirmed) are dropped, it should free up a bit of room for Elites. Carnifexes are a generalist unit that only really lacks at long range where the Exocrine will likely excel, as do Biovores, so it won't be stepping on the toes of Hive Guard too much hopefully.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Yeah, they aren't going to make the FMC grounding immune. That's just silly.
They will make the Harpy and Crones flyers though. In fact, I think the Harpy is already a FMC.
I'm not sure I understand this comment. Are you trying to say you think they will be the unit type "Flyers", or are you confirming they are flying monstrous creatures? The Harpy is already a flying monstrous creature. Both models are monsters with wings, so it is pretty obvious that they will be flying monstrous creatures. Tyranids don't have vehicles, so they definitely won't make them 'flyers'. As far as not being able to be grounded is concerned, it would make more sense for Harpies and presumably Crones than any other flying monstrous creature. Harpies are bombers, true, but they do mix it up high in the sky and aren't supposed to be on the ground at all, hence the complete lack of legs. Crones probably have a similar fluff description judging by the model. It won't happen but it would make more sense for them than anyone else.
Yeah, I meant Flying Monstrous Creature. I'm just really lazy like that.
How would they justify grounding immunity though? The idea behind grounding, iirc, is that the FMC loses control due to getting hit and crashes to the ground. Like a goose getting its wings clipped by a shotgun blast.
Heavy Support.
Carnifex,
Biovore
Trygon,
Mawloc
Tyrannofex
If we are to lose the Shrikes and Sky Slashers, the Trygon and Mawloc could move to fast attack, this would then free up two entries in Heavy Support where the Exocrine, and the Haruspex can fit in. Trouble will then be that we have a busy Fast Attack, what with the Crone, and the Harpy, that will be 4 Monstrous creatures.
Either way it is going to be interesting to see what happens, just hope we don't get anymore added to our already crowded Elites section.
stonehorse wrote: Anyone else feel that with these new lovely monsters that our FoC is going to be overcrowded, without named characters we already have:
HQ. Hive Tyrant, Tervigon, Tyranid Prime, Tyrant Guard as Retinue.
Heavy Support. Carnifex, Biovore Trygon, Mawloc Tyrannofex
If we are to lose the Shrikes and Sky Slashers Trygon and Mawloc could move to fast attack, this would then free up two entries in Heavy Support where the Exocrine, and the Haruspex can fit in. Trouble will then be that we have a busy Fast Attack, what with the Crone, and the Harpy, that will be 4 Monstrous creatures.
Either way it is going to be interesting to see what happens, just hope we don't get anymore added to our already crowded Elites section.
No such thing as a crowded FoC. I find such variety to be a good thing. Then again, I did play 3rd ed necrons, where they had like 13 units in total.
Caederes wrote: Hell yes, especially if one of the monsters has moved to Elites, whether it be a new one or Carnifexes - though Carnifexes make the most sense. Much, much cheaper for the most part in terms of points, and presumably improved in profile as well.
I feel like the Trygon would make more sense for a move though. It's more of a generalist unit in contrast to the Carnifex's base S 9 which screams HS.
I don't know if anyone pointed this out but those supposed leaked codex pages of the genestealers- take a closer look. Broodlord is a 50 point upgrade for mastery level 3 (or 1?). That's pretty gg and if that was a white dwarf update for our current codex then I think that would make them worth it.
zaak wrote: I don't know if anyone pointed this out but those supposed leaked codex pages of the genestealers- take a closer look. Broodlord is a 50 point upgrade for mastery level 3. That's pretty gg and if that was a white dwarf update for our current codex then I think that would make them worth it.
zaak wrote: I don't know if anyone pointed this out but those supposed leaked codex pages of the genestealers- take a closer look. Broodlord is a 50 point upgrade for mastery level 3. That's pretty gg and if that was a white dwarf update for our current codex then I think that would make them worth it.
The text is just blurry, it's probably just Mastery Level 1. And even if it was ML3, he can only use the one power he has one time per turn anyway, so it would only be useful for Deny the Witch.
I agree, though if Ymgarls (rumoured) and the Doom (confirmed) are dropped, it should free up a bit of room for Elites.
Where is the Doom confirmed as cut? Could someone please share this with me, its a pretty sore spot for me right now as I literally just spent a bunch of money on a custom made DoM :(
Still BS0, so can't use Witchfires. You'd think that your ability to hit a target with a death laser from your brain would be a wholly separate skill to your ability to use a gun.
It could be 1 and just look like a 3 because of the bad quality. Still, if it were 3, I'd assume that it'd know "The Horror" and be able to generate two more powers.
zaak wrote: I don't know if anyone pointed this out but those supposed leaked codex pages of the genestealers- take a closer look. Broodlord is a 50 point upgrade for mastery level 3 (or 1?). That's pretty gg and if that was a white dwarf update for our current codex then I think that would make them worth it.
zaak wrote: I don't know if anyone pointed this out but those supposed leaked codex pages of the genestealers- take a closer look. Broodlord is a 50 point upgrade for mastery level 3 (or 1?). That's pretty gg and if that was a white dwarf update for our current codex then I think that would make them worth it.
zaak wrote: I don't know if anyone pointed this out but those supposed leaked codex pages of the genestealers- take a closer look. Broodlord is a 50 point upgrade for mastery level 3 (or 1?). That's pretty gg and if that was a white dwarf update for our current codex then I think that would make them worth it.
What shocks me much more is that Scything Talons seem to be a 4 points upgrade...
Oh my...maybe they buffed it? I mean, 4 points for rerolling 1s is a bit...steep.
rigeld2 wrote:But wouldn't surprise me.
We really need to write a "thoughts and speculation" post on the first page or something. This is the fourth or fifth time the cost of scything talons, the Broodlord mastery level and powers combo stuff, and a half dozen other repeat conversations (extra spawns from tervigons debunk, doom gone, pods gone...etc). I think the thread is getting to the point that it's too large for people to read, and all these repeats is making it worse.
Carnage43 wrote: We really need to write a "thoughts and speculation" post on the first page or something. This is the fourth or fifth time the cost of scything talons, the Broodlord mastery level and powers combo stuff, and a half dozen other repeat conversations (extra spawns from tervigons debunk, doom gone, pods gone...etc). I think the thread is getting to the point that it's too large for people to read, and all these repeats is making it worse.
It's been close to ten pages, if not more, with no new rumors. I think the thread should be locked for a bit. It's annoying to check the thread in the morning, see three new pages and then look through those pages finding nothing but the same questions being asked, and the same "oh that's cool" comments, or people saying how excited they are.
undertow wrote: It's been close to ten pages, if not more, with no new rumors. I think the thread should be locked for a bit. It's annoying to check the thread in the morning, see three new pages and then look through those pages finding nothing but the same questions being asked, and the same "oh that's cool" comments, or people saying how excited they are.
Should I point out the issue with adding a new post without on-topic content, to complain about new posts without on-topic content? Should I do so in red?
Battle Focus happened because this is 6th edition and GW loves you for shooting people.
Some sort of "assault battlefocus" would go against Games Workshop's 6th edition mindset of "we don't want people to assault unless they're flyers or in some overpowered death star".
I for one am loving the new models, new organizations, and especially the rumors of point reductions on a number of my favorite currently unused bugs! However, I am going to to be angry if my scratch built Parasite, Doom, and 3 Spore Pods become unusable. Can't January 11th(?) get here sooner? Enough with this Xmas stuff, on to the new year!!!
via an anonymous source from the Faeit 212 inbox
Apex Biomorphs, max one of each per detachment:
1. Synapse range is reduced but grants Eternal Warrior. Can be taken by any
HQ (not Troop Tervigons or HS Trygon Primes).
2.Twin boneswords, AP2, for every wound inflicted on a 5+ the model regains
a wound. For Primes and Tyrants. Regular boneswords are AP3 by the way. 3. Virus spore barrage (Ordnance, Poisoned 3+, unlimited range, one-shot,
the template remains on the board until the end of the game).
A bit hazy but saw a flamer in there that could be taken by Tyrants and
Tervigons only (AP3?) and a 3+ carapace that grants a 2+ and EW if the
model didn't run/glide.
I knew it was gonna happen, but man I am pissed if Boneswords are AP3. Guess that means my warriors will be switching to rending claws...
rigeld2 wrote:Yay for having no boneswords other than my Prime!
Boo because I was looking forward to boneswords!
pretre wrote:Yeah, not sure why you would be surprised. They've been reducing the AP2, it seems.
Time to convert up some Bone-axes?
http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/12/tyranid-rules-apex-biomorphs.html ]via an anonymous source from the Faeit 212 inbox
Apex Biomorphs, max one of each per detachment:
1. Synapse range is reduced but grants Eternal Warrior. Can be taken by any
HQ (not Troop Tervigons or HS Trygon Primes). Game changer right here, and 100% required for a warrior heavy army.
2.Twin boneswords, AP2, for every wound inflicted on a 5+ the model regains
a wound. For Primes and Tyrants. Regular boneswords are AP3 by the way.Nifty, especially on a prime I suppose...somewhat useless for a tyrant no? Zero surprise about boneswords though
3. Virus spore barrage (Ordnance, Poisoned 3+, unlimited range, one-shot,
the template remains on the board until the end of the game). Meh, might be interesting to drop on an objective or as an area denial tool. Probably excessively expensive though.
A bit hazy but saw a flamer in there that could be taken by Tyrants and
Tervigons only (AP3?) Potentially interesting combo with wings.....nid-drake?
and a 3+ carapace that grants a 2+ and EW if the model didn't run/glide. Walking tyrant/HQ tervigon buff?
pretre wrote: Yeah, not sure why you would be surprised. They've been reducing the AP2, it seems.
Not surprised, just disappointed. I mean - I knew it was coming which is why I didn't bother making bonesword warriors for my last few games with this codex - didn't want to get "caught" halfway through after spending the time and money converting them.
rigeld2 wrote:Yay for having no boneswords other than my Prime!
Boo because I was looking forward to boneswords!
pretre wrote:Yeah, not sure why you would be surprised. They've been reducing the AP2, it seems.
Time to convert up some Bone-axes?
http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/12/tyranid-rules-apex-biomorphs.html ]via an anonymous source from the Faeit 212 inbox
Apex Biomorphs, max one of each per detachment:
1. Synapse range is reduced but grants Eternal Warrior. Can be taken by any
HQ (not Troop Tervigons or HS Trygon Primes). Game changer right here, and 100% required for a warrior heavy army.
2.Twin boneswords, AP2, for every wound inflicted on a 5+ the model regains
a wound. For Primes and Tyrants. Regular boneswords are AP3 by the way.Nifty, especially on a prime I suppose...somewhat useless for a tyrant no? Zero surprise about boneswords though
3. Virus spore barrage (Ordnance, Poisoned 3+, unlimited range, one-shot,
the template remains on the board until the end of the game). Meh, might be interesting to drop on an objective or as an area denial tool. Probably excessively expensive though.
A bit hazy but saw a flamer in there that could be taken by Tyrants and
Tervigons only (AP3?) Potentially interesting combo with wings.....nid-drake?
and a 3+ carapace that grants a 2+ and EW if the model didn't run/glide. Walking tyrant/HQ tervigon buff?
Of course, Faeit212, so likely not true.
Wow you're right. Holy crap an all warrior army might just have become viable with that EW granting biomorph! The trick will be to give it to either Swarmlord and/or a HT with Armored shell for maximum survivability.
via an anonymous source from the Faeit 212 inbox
Apex Biomorphs, max one of each per detachment:
1. Synapse range is reduced but grants Eternal Warrior. Can be taken by any HQ (not Troop Tervigons or HS Trygon Primes).
2.Twin boneswords, AP2, for every wound inflicted on a 5+ the model regains a wound. For Primes and Tyrants. Regular boneswords are AP3 by the way.
3. Virus spore barrage (Ordnance, Poisoned 3+, unlimited range, one-shot, the template remains on the board until the end of the game).
A bit hazy but saw a flamer in there that could be taken by Tyrants and
Tervigons only (AP3?) and a 3+ carapace that grants a 2+ and EW if the
model didn't run/glide.
Eternal Warrior for any HQ! Summary seems vague if the EW will be personal or within the reduced synapse range. If it's within a range, shoving it on a Prime in a unit will be exceptionally useful.
Additionally, there is another EW carapace. Not that EW is needed on larger Tyranids, anyways.
The rest is disappointing, to a degree. I was hoping that the one-per-army biomorphs would be the substitute for the Doom or Parasite similar to how the Eldar get a spear that can turn your Autarch effectively into a Solitaire. Instead, Tyranids just get super-wargear.
Also, Boneswords are AP3. Severe nerf, but expected.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: Wow you're right. Holy crap an all warrior army might just have become viable with that EW granting biomorph! The trick will be to give it to either Swarmlord and/or a HT with Armored shell for maximum survivability.
That would just be the tip of the iceberg really.
Prime with it in a warrior brood, so that overcomes the synapse nerf and protects the prime (assume he could even have it)
Flyrant with it escorting some raveners/shrikes up the table...suddenly you are looking at a reasonably tough attack force that might be able to make combat.
Can't see a reasonable use for it with a tervigon though...maybe babysitting biovores, zoans or ranged warriors?
via an anonymous source from the Faeit 212 inbox
Apex Biomorphs, max one of each per detachment:
1. Synapse range is reduced but grants Eternal Warrior. Can be taken by any HQ (not Troop Tervigons or HS Trygon Primes).
2.Twin boneswords, AP2, for every wound inflicted on a 5+ the model regains a wound. For Primes and Tyrants. Regular boneswords are AP3 by the way.
3. Virus spore barrage (Ordnance, Poisoned 3+, unlimited range, one-shot, the template remains on the board until the end of the game).
A bit hazy but saw a flamer in there that could be taken by Tyrants and
Tervigons only (AP3?) and a 3+ carapace that grants a 2+ and EW if the
model didn't run/glide.
Eternal Warrior for any HQ! Summary seems vague if the EW will be personal or within the reduced synapse range. If it's within a range, shoving it on a Prime in a unit will be exceptionally useful.
Additionally, there is another EW carapace. Not that EW is needed on larger Tyranids, anyways.
The rest is disappointing, to a degree. I was hoping that the one-per-army biomorphs would be the substitute for the Doom or Parasite similar to how the Eldar get a spear that can turn your Autarch effectively into a Solitaire. Instead, Tyranids just get super-wargear.
Also, Boneswords are AP3. Severe nerf, but expected.
I read it initially as grants EW within synapse, else what would be the point in reducing the range? Then I thought that it might be gaining EW at the cost of reduced leadership efficiency, but that sounded a bit too much like an attempt at balance!
Seriously though, I think it would be the first one.
When I read it, I thought it would be that the model with the upgrade has reduced Synapse Range, but gains Eternal Warrior. Granting Eternal Warrior to everything within a reduced bubble would be amazing, but I don't think it would happen. I'd love to be wrong, though.
As for the boneswords; expected it ever since I read 6th edition's "power weapons are AP3 unless stated otherwise". How unfortunate. It's not like we can get them on Hormagaunts! If a Warrior (because MCs will get AP2 anyway) gets into close combat with Terminators, I think they deserve to be able to ignore their saves. Ah, well.
Why are people so bent out of shape about the move to AP3 for Boneswords? You didn't cry when Grey Knights went from "no armor save" to AP3. When the same thing happens to your army you flip?
It's not like Tyranid Warriors are going to fight a whole lot that has a 2+ armor save anyway. A brood of 5 Warriors with 'swords is what, sub-200 points? Did you want them wading into a 500 point squad of TH+SS Terminators with an attached character and winning?
Seems a little unreasonable to expect anything more than AP3 for their cost., and seeing as how there are about 2 relevant units in the game walking around with 2+ armor, it's appropriate to 6th edition, not a nerf.
And no, Warriors don't "deserve to ignore" Terminator armor, as someone foolishly claimed. Warriors can wade into the other 99% of infantry out there and slaughter them this way. AP2 wasn't going to be a defining factor. Figure out other ways to kill Terminators; concurrently, figure out other ways to utilize Warriors.
It seems like nobody really wanted Warriors to be viable, they just wanted them to kill Terminators really efficiently, for less points, and with no drawbacks. Shows how close-minded most players are.
Warriors are not Terminator equivalent. They are Aspect Warrior equivalent. Terminators are the high bar for elite shock infantry, and that will never change (nor should it).
Note that I say all this as a Tyranids player first.
via an anonymous source from the Faeit 212 inbox
Apex Biomorphs, max one of each per detachment:
1. Synapse range is reduced but grants Eternal Warrior. Can be taken by any
HQ (not Troop Tervigons or HS Trygon Primes).
2.Twin boneswords, AP2, for every wound inflicted on a 5+ the model regains
a wound. For Primes and Tyrants. Regular boneswords are AP3 by the way. 3. Virus spore barrage (Ordnance, Poisoned 3+, unlimited range, one-shot,
the template remains on the board until the end of the game).
A bit hazy but saw a flamer in there that could be taken by Tyrants and
Tervigons only (AP3?) and a 3+ carapace that grants a 2+ and EW if the
model didn't run/glide.
I knew it was gonna happen, but man I am pissed if Boneswords are AP3. Guess that means my warriors will be switching to rending claws...
Those actually look genuine to me, honestly. Nothing outlandish, and it also confirms stuff we suspected like regular Boneswords being AP3 and regular Synapse not conferring Eternal Warrior. My thoughts;
1) On a totally, completely unrelated note, the Primaris Psychic Power for Tyranids boosts the Synapse range of the psyker by 6" This is very nice as it should allow at least one brood of Raveners/Shrikes/Warriors to benefit from Eternal Warrior. If it does stack with Dominion (and something tells me Dominion will work with it) then running multiples of those units should certainly be viable (except for that one turn you fail your psychic test).
2) I'm curious, does this mean only one model in the army can have "two boneswords", or is this referring to a specific pair of boneswords? In any case, it is obviously suited for a Tyranid Prime with the AP2. Of course, regaining wounds on a 5+ helps any of our HQs.
3) That is awesome. It's the Tyranid equivalent of an Orbital Bombardment. What is not to like?
4) A monster-only (Hive Tyrants and Tervigons are the only monstrous creatures that aren't special characters in the HQ slot) flamer? Hopefully it is AP3 so we can a flying Hive Tyrant Heldrake-wannabe.
5) I'm curious on this one about the "glide", is that supposed to mean actual gliding (a FMC when it isn't "flying") or making a 'run' move as a swooping FMC? Either way, sounds nifty. As long as Armoured Shell is still available otherwise, I don't mind. If it is available to Primes that will be sweet.
These sound nifty, the sticking point of course will be the costs.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
brassangel wrote: Why are people so bent out of shape about the move to AP3 for Boneswords? You didn't cry when Grey Knights went from "no armor save" to AP3. When the same thing happens to your army you flip?
While the rest of your post shows that you are just lazily assigning "the world is ending" tags to people here, I'll only focus on this part.
The difference here is that Grey Knights were an over-powered 5th Edition army, and having almost exclusively AP3 power weapons on their dudes was part of the balancing act of 6th Edition that led to them being a good, but hardly over or under-powered codex. Besides, almost every single Grey Knight has a power weapon.
Tyranid Warriors, instead, are an already very unpopular (competitively) unit that have to actively pay for their boneswords.
The rumour on the Harpy having different 'spore bomb ammunition' really stuck out to me, as it might see the return of the different types of artillery for Biovores. Anyone else intrigued?
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: Wow you're right. Holy crap an all warrior army might just have become viable with that EW granting biomorph! The trick will be to give it to either Swarmlord and/or a HT with Armored shell for maximum survivability.
That would just be the tip of the iceberg really.
Prime with it in a warrior brood, so that overcomes the synapse nerf and protects the prime (assume he could even have it)
I was already putting together a unit with Lashwhip/Bonesword to escort a Prime around, so giving him and his brood Eternal Warrior should make them a fairly tough shock assault unit.
EW bubbles would make Warriors more interesting, but also Venomthropes and especially Warriors supported by Venomthropes. Doubly interesting if VTs grant Shrouding instead of a simple cover save.
gorgon wrote: EW bubbles would make Warriors more interesting, but also Venomthropes and especially Warriors supported by Venomthropes. Doubly interesting if VTs grant Shrouding instead of a simple cover save.
EW warriors supported by venomthropes would be almost unstoppable, especially if camping on an objective.
I am very doubtful that Synapse will grant Eternal Warrior. I can see a biomorph of some kind granting It will Not Die. That isn't too powerful, as Tyranid Warriors can still be instantly killed by strength 8, which is fair, and at the same time grants Tyranids some protection against small arms fire for Monstrous creatures.
gorgon wrote: EW bubbles would make Warriors more interesting, but also Venomthropes and especially Warriors supported by Venomthropes. Doubly interesting if VTs grant Shrouding instead of a simple cover save.
EW warriors supported by venomthropes would be almost unstoppable, especially if camping on an objective.
That being said, I'm starting to doubt its true.
I think you over estimate how good it would be. They aren't screamer star or seer council level, they aren't a TENTH of that. T4 W3 models with EW and a 4+ save is not exactly intimidating to anyone for 40+ points, just lay the heavy weapons into the big guys and use small arms to take out the warriors.
gorgon wrote: EW bubbles would make Warriors more interesting, but also Venomthropes and especially Warriors supported by Venomthropes. Doubly interesting if VTs grant Shrouding instead of a simple cover save.
EW warriors supported by venomthropes would be almost unstoppable, especially if camping on an objective.
That being said, I'm starting to doubt its true.
I think you over estimate how good it would be. They aren't screamer star or seer council level, they aren't a TENTH of that. T4 W3 models with EW and a 4+ save is not exactly intimidating to anyone for 40+ points, just lay the heavy weapons into the big guys and use small arms to take out the warriors.
You're forgetting with a venomthrope and terrain those T4 W3 EW Warriors potentially have a 3+ cover save, maybe even a 2+. Even Tau are going to have trouble taking them out if you manage to take out their marker lights quick enough.
stonehorse wrote: I am very doubtful that Synapse will grant Eternal Warrior. I can see a biomorph of some kind granting It will Not Die. That isn't too powerful, as Tyranid Warriors can still be instantly killed by strength 8, which is fair, and at the same time grants Tyranids some protection against small arms fire for Monstrous creatures.
How do you figure Warriors being instantly killed by S8 is 'fair', given their points cost?
They don't need resiance against small arms. a 4+ save and 3 wounds a peice offers that. Their weakness against S8, AP4 or better weapons is what is causing them to be entirely absent from tables. Right now, the humble krak missile removes a ~40pt Warrior from the table. No questions asked, gone. That is where the problem lies.
gorgon wrote: EW bubbles would make Warriors more interesting, but also Venomthropes and especially Warriors supported by Venomthropes. Doubly interesting if VTs grant Shrouding instead of a simple cover save.
EW warriors supported by venomthropes would be almost unstoppable, especially if camping on an objective.
That being said, I'm starting to doubt its true.
I think you over estimate how good it would be. They aren't screamer star or seer council level, they aren't a TENTH of that. T4 W3 models with EW and a 4+ save is not exactly intimidating to anyone for 40+ points, just lay the heavy weapons into the big guys and use small arms to take out the warriors.
You're forgetting with a venomthrope and terrain those T4 W3 EW Warriors potentially have a 3+ cover save, maybe even a 2+. Even Tau are going to have trouble taking them out if you manage to take out their marker lights quick enough.
Still not close to screamers or seer council....that's assuming (which has exactly zero rumor support BTW) that venomthropes move to a stealth or shrouded aura and don't still have the crappy 5+ cover save aura. In an era of where T4 creatures have rerollable 2+ invulernable saves, who cares about a 3+ cover saves?
stonehorse wrote: I am very doubtful that Synapse will grant Eternal Warrior. I can see a biomorph of some kind granting It will Not Die. That isn't too powerful, as Tyranid Warriors can still be instantly killed by strength 8, which is fair, and at the same time grants Tyranids some protection against small arms fire for Monstrous creatures.
How do you figure Warriors being instantly killed by S8 is 'fair', given their points cost?
They don't need resiance against small arms. a 4+ save and 3 wounds a peice offers that. Their weakness against S8, AP4 or better weapons is what is causing them to be entirely absent from tables. Right now, the humble krak missile removes a ~40pt Warrior from the table. No questions asked, gone. That is where the problem lies.
A Krak Missile can take out most tanks and vehicles in one shot, can kill most meq and eeq characters with one shot. What makes Warriors so special that they should be immune to being killed by such?
Also I mentioned that It Will Not Die would favour our Monstrous Creatures, not Tyranid Warriors.
For the record I run a predominantly Tyranid Warrior force, so know what it is like to lose them to Krak Missiles, but that is what Krak Missiles do.
stonehorse wrote: I am very doubtful that Synapse will grant Eternal Warrior. I can see a biomorph of some kind granting It will Not Die. That isn't too powerful, as Tyranid Warriors can still be instantly killed by strength 8, which is fair, and at the same time grants Tyranids some protection against small arms fire for Monstrous creatures.
How do you figure Warriors being instantly killed by S8 is 'fair', given their points cost?
They don't need resiance against small arms. a 4+ save and 3 wounds a peice offers that. Their weakness against S8, AP4 or better weapons is what is causing them to be entirely absent from tables. Right now, the humble krak missile removes a ~40pt Warrior from the table. No questions asked, gone. That is where the problem lies.
A Krak Missile can take out most tanks and vehicles in one shot, can kill most meq and eeq characters with one shot. What makes Warriors so special that they should be immune to being killed by such?
Also I mentioned that It Will Not Die would favour our Monstrous Creatures, not Tyranid Warriors.
For the record I run a predominantly Tyranid Warrior force, so know what it is like to lose them to Krak Missiles, but that is what Krak Missiles do.
And for the record, people wanting EW just because you don't like your warriors getting pasted by krak missiles don't realize that the side bonus is that a Daemon Prince with a Balesword or an Archon with a Huskblade or anything with a Force Weapon can't paste them either which throws a lot of things out of whack.
And I love how people just want them for their warriors, forgetting that their MCs and their T6 Tyrant/Hive guard would get the same exact thing for no reason.
stonehorse wrote: A Krak Missile can take out most tanks and vehicles in one shot
With a lot of luck. It needs to hit, bypass a cover save, penetrate armour, and roll well on the damage table as it gets no bonuses.
At most, you need to hit a warrior, wound on a 2+, and bypass cover.
stonehorse wrote: can kill most meq and eeq characters with one shot.
Which will, unless the opposing player is not very smart, be in a unit to be used as ablative wounds, and also pack an invulnerable save.
stonehorse wrote: What makes Warriors so special that they should be immune to being killed by such?
Because they're a squad so they get no ablative wounds, which gets no access to invulnerable saves unlike a lot of other expensive units and characters, and pack a 4+ save, unlike a lot of other expensive units or characters. And do not have a damage table like vehicles to hide behind.
stonehorse wrote: Also I mentioned that It Will Not Die would favour our Monstrous Creatures, not Tyranid Warriors.
Well yeah, because it would hardly benefit Warrior at all.
stonehorse wrote: For the record I run a predominantly Tyranid Warrior force, so know what it is like to lose them to Krak Missiles, but that is what Krak Missiles do.
It is - but Warriors are needlessly fragile to them for their points cost. Eternal Warrior might be too much, but that's how GW swings their pendulum. The idea of T5, W2 would be better, but seems it didn't happen.
djm55 wrote: I for one am loving the new models, new organizations, and especially the rumors of point reductions on a number of my favorite currently unused bugs! However, I am going to to be angry if my scratch built Parasite, Doom, and 3 Spore Pods become unusable. Can't January 11th(?) get here sooner? Enough with this Xmas stuff, on to the new year!!!
I agree, taking units OUT of a codex seems like a terrible idea. It can only upset people who put a lot of time and effort into modeling these units, whether they have official models or not. Nothing is unbalanceable, and if they hate the way they play that badly and really have no balancing creativity left to deal with making new rules for them, just make them 350 pts or something and they are effectively out of the competitive codex. Especially for the fact that they are a model waiting to be built and released at any point in time that is guaranteed to sell well, it just seems crazy to write them off.
That being said, I'm still waiting on confirmation that Doom has been cut - so far it just seems like speculation due to the fact that there is no model release shown yet
A Krak Missile can take out most tanks and vehicles in one shot, can kill most meq and eeq characters with one shot. What makes Warriors so special that they should be immune to being killed by such?
...
For the record I run a predominantly Tyranid Warrior force, so know what it is like to lose them to Krak Missiles, but that is what Krak Missiles do.
The lack of targets (i.e. armor) in a Tyranid army makes warriors far more likely to be targeted by these high strength weapons, particularly en masse. It's really not fair to expect that the durability of warriors would not have a boost in some way in the new codex given that, in general, it seems that warriors don't make it to the table. it may not be an omnipresent boost, but one that many nid players may appreciate.
Slayer le boucher wrote: If Deamons and specially Bloodcrushers, doesn't have EW, and they are still T4 W3 models, i don't see why Nids would have a EW bubble.
Some kind of artifact/super biomorph for ONE character at 40pts, i wouldn't even be mad, but a bubble EW for everyone?, nope.
So we're just forgetting that Bloodcrushers and other Daemons can get a 3++ (up to 2++ is you get lucky)?
Slayer le boucher wrote: If Deamons and specially Bloodcrushers, doesn't have EW, and they are still T4 W3 models, i don't see why Nids would have a EW bubble.
You're looking at it backwards.
Bloodcrushers should be T5 with a 3+ save. GW saw fit to hit them with the nerf hammer multiple times between their first and current incarnations, and that was a horrible mistake. Why should 'Nids suffer the same terrible fate just because Daemons got screwed?
The comparison to a Rhino makes no sense. Different unit, different use, and has NO killing power whatsoever. Oh, and can't claim an objective. The unit has to get out.
It also isn't hard to kill a Rhino, because it's going to lose Hull Points in a single shooting phase even if the Krak doesn't blow it up.
Also, have you seen tournament results for the last 6 months? There just aren't many Krak missiles seeing play anymore. Everything is S6 and S7. Eldar, Necrons, and Tau are shooting things down with these weapons. There are so few S8 weapons, that I find it hard to believe that people are going to waste them to kill 1 Warrior when there are 5x 6W monsters coming across the table; some of which are shooting back.
People talk like Warriors are the only unit on the table, and every weapon on the opposing side is a Krak missile. Vacuum comparisons is a sign of argument for argument's sake. Warriors didn't get what YOU wanted, so you're mad.
With the new codex in hand, and a lot of games under our belts, we will be able to determine if they are good. Talking about it now - the way it's being discussed - is embarrassing to watch.
Warriors are naked flesh with some bony plates. They aren't Terminators or Lychguard, decked out in super thick armor. Hence the lower save. They are slender and quick, not stocky and armored (like Hive/Tyrant Guard), and thus the T4. They are very killy, a Synapse node, and a vehicle for Shadow as well. Use them to kill infantry below Terminators, and they will decimate.
If your opponent is a colossal moron who wants to spend their Riptides killing less points than he's worth on some Warriors, laugh and enjoy the victory about the ensue.
brassangel wrote: If your opponent is a colossal moron who wants to spend their Riptides killing less points than he's worth on some Warriors, laugh and enjoy the victory about the ensue.
Assuming you give your Warriors the upgrades they want/need, the Riptide is always going to be worth less points unless you have only a 3 man squad of Warriors.
And then when your opponent spends a little bit of effort killing a squad of say 9 warriors, suddenly you are left with only 2/3's of your points, easy as that. As for your example, could likely happen on turn 1 vs tau.
I think the only colossal moron would be the guy with Warriors on his side of the field.
Ugh, why can't we just meet in the middle, give Warriors (and derivatives) toughness 5. Solves all the problems nicely: tough to kill, representative of the fact that the hive mind can keep them functioning even though they have suffered wounds that would be lethal to other organisms, but still instant-deathable to high enough S weapons.
New rumor from Natfka that Boneswords witll be AP 3 and some info on Apex (one per army) biomorphs. Crazy theory here, but if regular Boneswords will now be AP 3 and duel Boneswords are AP 2 and regenerate from wounds inflected on a +5 (per Nafka). Could this mean that a single Boneswords regains wounds inflicted on a roll of a 6?
brassangel wrote: I find it hard to believe that people are going to waste them to kill 1 Warrior when there are 5x 6W monsters coming across the table; some of which are shooting back.
chaos0xomega wrote: Ugh, why can't we just meet in the middle, give Warriors (and derivatives) toughness 5. Solves all the problems nicely: tough to kill, representative of the fact that the hive mind can keep them functioning even though they have suffered wounds that would be lethal to other organisms, but still instant-deathable to high enough S weapons.
Middle ground? Compromise? Crazy talk.
But yeah, T5, W2 would be idea. Toughens them up without giving them a better save, means they won't be ID'd unless it's a paritcularly powerful gun, still decently resilient to small arms.
I wouldn't reduce their wounds to 2 unless they upped their save. Just too easy for a Heavy Bolter to rip through the unit with 2 wounds a piece.
T5 W3 Sv4+ means that you dedicate bigger anti-infantry and light-AT weapons (Heavy Bolters, Autocannons and the like) to kill them, which I think is fair.
It seems like nobody really wanted Warriors to be viable, they just wanted them to kill Terminators really efficiently, for less points, and with no drawbacks. Shows how close-minded most players are.
Nah, it shows how pigeonholed Warriors have become due to the degradation suffered over the lifespan of the current codex.
Right now they have literally no reason to exist other than being able to effectively hunt down 2+ armour save/multiwound models. There are other, better Tyranid units for every other task you could possibly want to complete in a game.
So when people see AP 2 disappear, unaccompanied by any new revelation that gives Warriors another role, they quite reasonably react with disappointment.
You've been repeating the idea that all is not lost until we've seen the codex as a whole, and I completely agree with that, but so far nothing we've learned has made Warriors more worthwhile than they are now, and several things have made them less worthwhile. At the moment, based on the paltry percentage of information we have, Warriors have been nerfed. Obviously that will have to be reassessed as more and more information comes out, until January 11+ gives us the final word, but right now it's not looking good.
brassangel wrote: I find it hard to believe that people are going to waste them to kill 1 Warrior when there are 5x 6W monsters coming across the table; some of which are shooting back.
And none of which are scoring units.
Yeah, no matter how awesome or cheap the other stuff in the codex gets, T4 W3 Warriors are always going to be an amazingly ripe target. In every mission they're either a scoring unit, or an easy kill point. Killing them removes Synapse coverage. And even from a quick-and-dirty "earning your points" perspective, there are very few S8+ carrying units that wouldn't do good work by simply taking out a 30+ point Warrior model, especially considering that any lighter weaponry firing from the same unit will have a much more acute effect on Warriors than it would against a Monstrous Creature.
How many of us were actually taking Boneswords on anything other than Tyrants in the first place? An AP3 nerf to them literally means absolutely nothing to those of us that haven't been using Warriors anyway, since Warriors are the only unit it'll really affect with MC's having AP2 smash attacks regardless.
Sure it's a little disappointing to those of us that were intent on taking Warriors in the future, but if the rumours are true about them gaining Eternal Warrior through means of Apex Biomorphs then they may still have their place in an army, they just won't be the AP2 Terminator killers of old. I'm pretty sure that they'll have their uses. I look forward to the codex dropping and seeing how I can utilise them. 'Nids already have plenty of stuff that can deal with Termies anyway, one way or another.
Really liking the idea of Apex Biomorphs by the way, I liked the idea of chapter relics and whatnot so giving the 'Nids an equivalent is very cool indeed.
djm55 wrote: I for one am loving the new models, new organizations, and especially the rumors of point reductions on a number of my favorite currently unused bugs! However, I am going to to be angry if my scratch built Parasite, Doom, and 3 Spore Pods become unusable. Can't January 11th(?) get here sooner? Enough with this Xmas stuff, on to the new year!!!
I agree, taking units OUT of a codex seems like a terrible idea. It can only upset people who put a lot of time and effort into modeling these units, whether they have official models or not. Nothing is unbalanceable, and if they hate the way they play that badly and really have no balancing creativity left to deal with making new rules for them, just make them 350 pts or something and they are effectively out of the competitive codex. Especially for the fact that they are a model waiting to be built and released at any point in time that is guaranteed to sell well, it just seems crazy to write them off.
That being said, I'm still waiting on confirmation that Doom has been cut - so far it just seems like speculation due to the fact that there is no model release shown yet
I bet if they are removed from the regular codex we will see them all (including Red Terror I hope) back in the supplement codex dealing with specific fleets/ invasions. Such as with Doom maybe the members of the swarm have additional anti psyker rules.
Brutal Viking wrote: Anyone think that the carnifex in the battle report that was "regenerating like crazy" might have been able to take the Ap2 5+ regen boneswords?
No, it was just Old. One Eye(crushing claws/scything talons).
Brutal Viking wrote: Anyone think that the carnifex in the battle report that was "regenerating like crazy" might have been able to take the Ap2 5+ regen boneswords?
No, it was just Old. One Eye(crushing claws/scything talons).
ah thank you; don't know his rules so didn't know he regenerated
seems like a better deal than buying them through the online deal though still. Plus you get all the other stuff with it to fill out your force more. I'll probably pick up 2 or 3 of them lol
brassangel wrote: I find it hard to believe that people are going to waste them to kill 1 Warrior when there are 5x 6W monsters coming across the table; some of which are shooting back.
And none of which are scoring units.
The example about Riptides was particularly bad. Overcharging the Ion Accelerator gives you an S8 AP2 large pie plate that often ignores cover and is therefore a good gun for eliminating entire mobs of Nid Warriors, Stealers or anything else that is expensive, and that's exactly what the Riptides will kill before moving on to taking pot shots at monstrous creatures which they're a lot worse in.
Eternal Warrior or T5 is precisely what they need.
I wonder that the crones bio missiles will do? Anti air? Anti infantry? Anti tank? I hope they are not just S 8 AP 3. I would like something with a little more character?
Zookie wrote: I wonder that the crones bio missiles will do? Anti air? Anti infantry? Anti tank? I hope they are not just S 8 AP 3. I would like something with a little more character?
Supposedly they're meant for antiair, but I'd imagine they'll work fine against other vehicles too if they're just fluffy tyranid missiles.
Zookie wrote: I wonder that the crones bio missiles will do? Anti air? Anti infantry? Anti tank? I hope they are not just S 8 AP 3. I would like something with a little more character?
Supposedly they're meant for antiair, but I'd imagine they'll work fine against other vehicles too if they're just fluffy tyranid missiles.
I first saw them described as bombs. To me the look like something that would just drop off of the Crone's wings and explode over the heads of ground targets. That's just my take on them based on how they look though, 100% speculation.
Zookie wrote: I wonder that the crones bio missiles will do? Anti air? Anti infantry? Anti tank? I hope they are not just S 8 AP 3. I would like something with a little more character?
Supposedly they're meant for antiair, but I'd imagine they'll work fine against other vehicles too if they're just fluffy tyranid missiles.
I first saw them described as bombs. To me the look like something that would just drop off of the Crone's wings and explode over the heads of ground targets. That's just my take on them based on how they look though, 100% speculation.
Swarmlord and his anti-deathstar deathstar, 3 Crones, 3 Exocrines, and two Tervigons farting Gaunts to objectives! Extra points into as many Hive Guard as you can get! Tyranids v6th!
Zookie wrote: I wonder that the crones bio missiles will do? Anti air? Anti infantry? Anti tank? I hope they are not just S 8 AP 3. I would like something with a little more character?
Supposedly they're meant for antiair, but I'd imagine they'll work fine against other vehicles too if they're just fluffy tyranid missiles.
I first saw them described as bombs. To me the look like something that would just drop off of the Crone's wings and explode over the heads of ground targets. That's just my take on them based on how they look though, 100% speculation.
Hmmm, not sure if the Crone will be the flyer killer some people seem to think it will be. Assuming BS 3 you looking at two 7 S hits. Not bad for most flyers but will struggle against AV 12 flyer.
Zookie wrote: I wonder that the crones bio missiles will do? Anti air? Anti infantry? Anti tank? I hope they are not just S 8 AP 3. I would like something with a little more character?
Supposedly they're meant for antiair, but I'd imagine they'll work fine against other vehicles too if they're just fluffy tyranid missiles.
I first saw them described as bombs. To me the look like something that would just drop off of the Crone's wings and explode over the heads of ground targets. That's just my take on them based on how they look though, 100% speculation.
Hmmm, not sure if the Crone will be the flyer killer some people seem to think it will be. Assuming BS 3 you looking at two 7 S hits. Not bad for most flyers but will struggle against AV 12 flyer.
Zookie wrote: I wonder that the crones bio missiles will do? Anti air? Anti infantry? Anti tank? I hope they are not just S 8 AP 3. I would like something with a little more character?
Supposedly they're meant for antiair, but I'd imagine they'll work fine against other vehicles too if they're just fluffy tyranid missiles.
I first saw them described as bombs. To me the look like something that would just drop off of the Crone's wings and explode over the heads of ground targets. That's just my take on them based on how they look though, 100% speculation.
Hmmm, not sure if the Crone will be the flyer killer some people seem to think it will be. Assuming BS 3 you looking at two 7 S hits. Not bad for most flyers but will struggle against AV 12 flyer.
I'm not commenting specifically on you-know-what-unit, but to be fair we have no idea what other things might emerge as 2+ save killers. If toxin Hormagaunts end up parked at 6 pts per -- and note that scything talons may have changed or improved too -- they may be able to just bury units with wounds. Fleet and +3" to Run isn't as good as Beast movement, but it's pretty fast. My experience with Daemonettes has taught me that.
Even after we have the codex, there are going to be *good things* in there that no one or few people recognize at first. It's how it goes.
There's a reductive process at work as codices age. Usually the armies grow increasingly dependent on certain units/combos/gear, and "crutches" emerge. And one of GW's favorite things to do is to kick out crutches with a new codex. Boneswords may fit that description, we'll see. The important thing is that new crutches will probably emerge.
I am not sure if it is certain that they are AA missiles. Though I would imagine they are. Not much missiles could do that would be better than S7 AP2 large blast.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is a repost from earlier (it got swallowed up in the Warrior discussion but I think it is worth considering).
New rumor from Natfka that Boneswords witll be AP 3 and some info on Apex (one per army) biomorphs. Crazy theory here, but if regular Boneswords will now be AP 3 and duel Boneswords are AP 2 and regenerate from wounds inflected on a +5 (per Nafka). Could this mean that a single Boneswords regains wounds inflicted on a roll of a 6?
If so I think they will lose the instant death ability (especially since smash allows us that option for most opponents anyway)
SHUPPET wrote: Has there been any word on things that we heard ages ago, like different brood bonuses, and Tyrannofex getting a large points drop ?
Tyrannofex is rumoured to come in with something like. 40-50 point drop, the actual figure is somewhere buried in the thread, but probably also in the original post.
I haven't seen any recent mention of whether Shadows in the Warp has changed. I saw a rumor a long time ago that it might be -4 to Psychic checks instead of rolling 3D6. Did I miss anything?
Not much new has surfaced really since the 11th picture dump. Faeit posted some "Apex Biomorphs" yesterday that sounded pretty cool. Anything else hasn't really come up yet, hence the 2-3 pages of discussion why Warriors need/don't need eternal warrior.
It's the calm before the storm - We should see rumors picking up again sometime around/after christmas, since that'll be within 15 days or so of the "rumored" release date.
Also I listened to the newest 40K radio podcast on Monday. The only mention of Tyranids was "We predicted it would be January, back in August". No rumors or rules were presented in the podcast so i believe they're taking the C&D seriously as far as rumors go.
New picture of. Hive Guard up on 4chan. On my phone or I'd link it. Also rippers and hormagaunts leaked- same statlines. Toxins sacs are 3 pts now, adrenal glands are still two.(supposedly). They did drop one point per model though, and rippers cost 3 more.
streamdragon wrote: If Horms are 9ppm, then we will still see nothing but Terms + Tervs as troops. Disappointing.
Their cost with both upgrades remains unchanged at 10.
And Bounding Leap is only +3" run. They have nothing new otherwise in their profile, before someone says that they might still have some hidden feature. If there is then it's in Synapse, otherwise that's it.
Sinful Hero wrote: New picture of. Hive Guard up on 4chan. On my phone or I'd link it. Also rippers and hormagaunts leaked- same statlines. Toxins sacs are 3 pts now, adrenal glands are still two.(supposedly). They did drop one point per model though, and rippers cost 3 more.
Adrenals are 2 points.....
Hormigaunts with both are equally expensive to what they previously were? Even if that blurry 3 for toxin sacs is actaully a 1, it still isn't enough to make hormigaunt viable unless scything talons are way better than they used to be.
streamdragon wrote: If Horms are 9ppm, then we will still see nothing but Terms + Tervs as troops. Disappointing.
Their cost with both upgrades remains unchanged at 10.
And Bounding Leap is only +3" run. They have nothing new otherwise in their profile, before someone says that they might still have some hidden feature. If there is then it's in Synapse, otherwise that's it.
rigeld2 wrote: Are Scything Talons any better than they were?
Good question, I forgot about that.
That might be the big change then. Based on the cost of those on Genestealers, there's definitely something curious going - either they've gone up in price for no reason or they have been nicely boosted. So i guess there's that.
Also Rippers have lost their Mindless rule, so they no longer suffer outside of Synapse like before. Still wouldn't justify why the worst swarm in the game would get costed even more.
Their Adrenal Gland upgrade has... increased in cost too? Hard to tell if that's a 4/5/6.
Sinful Hero wrote: New picture of. Hive Guard up on 4chan. On my phone or I'd link it. Also rippers and hormagaunts leaked- same statlines. Toxins sacs are 3 pts now, adrenal glands are still two.(supposedly). They did drop one point per model though, and rippers cost 3 more.
Adrenals are 2 points.....
Hormigaunts with both are equally expensive to what they previously were? Even if that blurry 3 for toxin sacs is actaully a 1, it still isn't enough to make hormigaunt viable unless scything talons are way better than they used to be.
Yes, that's what I said. What I mean by supposedly is the entries are starting to make me suspicious. Do they normally include they entry for all troop choices in White Dwarf?
I'm with Sinful Hero - until I see these in a white dwarf surrounded by a photobox and magazine text, It's hard to believe that we're getting identical stats and point costs for all our main troops (Bar termagants).
IF these pictures are authentic -Either basic biomorphs like scything talons, toxin sacs, and adrenal glands have changed dramatically, or the WD design studio took a big crap on this Tyranid dex like Cruddace.
I'll reserve final judgment until after i've seen the entire codex and not just these little snippets - but something isn't sitting right here.
tetrisphreak wrote: I'm with Sinful Hero - until I see these in a white dwarf surrounded by a photobox and magazine text, It's hard to believe that we're getting identical stats and point costs for all our main troops (Bar termagants).
Why not? The Eldar codex was mostly a copy-pasta job of near-identical units and options with just a few points tweaked from the previous codex. Most of the key changes were in the form of army-wide special rules and improved weapons/wargear.
Also the source for these rules is the same guy providing pics of new units. I don't believe any other rumours about EW and so on, but I doubt these Troop entries are fake.
The big question now is if/how the core rules like biomorphs and weapons have changed.
tetrisphreak wrote: I'm with Sinful Hero - until I see these in a white dwarf surrounded by a photobox and magazine text, It's hard to believe that we're getting identical stats and point costs for all our main troops (Bar termagants).
IF these pictures are authentic -Either basic biomorphs like scything talons, toxin sacs, and adrenal glands have changed dramatically, or the WD design studio took a big crap on this Tyranid dex like Cruddace.
I'll reserve final judgment until after i've seen the entire codex and not just these little snippets - but something isn't sitting right here.
OR!
The codex is actually written by Cruddace and GW new nobody would buy the codex so they said it was written by the "GW Design Team"...sneaky games workshop, real sneaky.
xttz wrote: Why not? The Eldar codex was mostly a copy-pasta job of near-identical units and options with just a few points tweaked from the previous codex. Most of the key changes were in the form of army-wide special rules and improved weapons/wargear.
Umm. The Eldar Codex was not a copy paste job. You'd want to look at the two previous eldar codexes to see a copy paste job.
If genuine, it's hard to understand the point costs without some improvements we're not seeing. Sixth edition codices have been based on their 4th/5th ed versions (Daemons excluded), but they have to want to sell Hormagaunts at some point, right?
Maybe Scything Talons grant Preferred Enemy? Weren't there some rumors about CC biomorphs helping shooting and vice versa? That would fit, although it wouldn't make a ton of fluff sense or help Hormagaunts as much as the shooty broods.
Oh hello there you sexy beasts . The paint job is indeed a bit strange unless Tyranids have now lava flowing under their armor. The crushing claws are a surprise. To suspect therefore they are motorcycle clubs is a bit too far in my opinion. Would it make sense rulewise? making anything easier to determin when a MC Charckter is part of an MC squad? The lash whip looks oddly thick but nothing greenstuff can't fix.
Anybody got a link to the /tg/ thread so i can see these hormagaunt/ripper stats?
Also preferred enemy isn't worth 4 points on a genestealer - they have zero shooting abilities. The only way i can see adding scytals costing so much for them is if they go back to counting as an additional set of weapons like they used to. Then +1 Attack and Preferred enemy make way more sense for 4 pts. But then again with poison re-rolling to wound most targets, it seems that might be the better upgrade.
Oh i just don't know what to think! January 11 needs to arrive soon!
I really do like the new Guard. I prefer the old Tyrant Guard because they looked like barely sentient slabs of meat, but these are pretty cool. Lash whip looks lame.
tetrisphreak wrote: Also preferred enemy isn't worth 4 points on a genestealer - they have zero shooting abilities.
I honestly truly believe that they don't consider that fact when they write rules like that. Same reason why Warriors still suck and why things like Rippers will go up in price: Rules written in a vacuum.
tetrisphreak wrote: Anybody got a link to the /tg/ thread so i can see these hormagaunt/ripper stats?
Also preferred enemy isn't worth 4 points on a genestealer - they have zero shooting abilities. The only way i can see adding scytals costing so much for them is if they go back to counting as an additional set of weapons like they used to. Then +1 Attack and Preferred enemy make way more sense for 4 pts. But then again with poison re-rolling to wound most targets, it seems that might be the better upgrade.
Oh i just don't know what to think! January 11 needs to arrive soon!
Preferred enemy gives a (limited) reroll against higher T values though, and pairs nicely with rending. Sure, it's entirely possible some biomorphs grant more than one bonus, like with the rumors about adrenals granting both furious charge and a run + assault move. They seem cheap for an extra attack though. So preferred enemy plus an AP value?
We have the unit entries, but the devil is really in the details. Personally, I'm preparing to be underwhelmed, but who knows?
pretre wrote: Preferred enemy doesn't just work on shooting... Rerolling all 1's on hit and wound is pretty good.
4 points a model good? They're costing them based on a WS6 creature, which makes less sense as WS6 creatures miss less anyway, and this particular WS6 creature has no shooting skills.
pretre wrote: Preferred enemy doesn't just work on shooting... Rerolling all 1's on hit and wound is pretty good.
4 points a model good? They're costing them based on a WS6 creature, which makes less sense as WS6 creatures miss less anyway, and this particular WS6 creature has no shooting skills.
Not really . Lol
I should have quoted the previous guy since he made it sound like PE only worked on shooting.
pretre wrote: Preferred enemy doesn't just work on shooting... Rerolling all 1's on hit and wound is pretty good.
4 points a model good? They're costing them based on a WS6 creature, which makes less sense as WS6 creatures miss less anyway, and this particular WS6 creature has no shooting skills.
But as you alluded, this discussion isn't really about whether preferred enemy is good enough to be worth 4 pts...it's about whether it's good enough that GW might think it's worth 4 pts. And yeah, I think it has a chance to be in the latter category.
I don't think players should be preparing to be blown away by the answers to some of these questions. But some things might surprise.
I understand that preferred enemy works in shooting and assault phases - but genestealers and hormagaunts only would benefit from it in the assault phase, thus halving it's utility immediately, followed by the fact that poison offers an often better effect for what appears to be cheaper points in the leaked unit entries.
I'm also making a mistake in assuming the GW design team pays attention to what they're writing in context with the game. After all, Tau, Eldar, and Space Marines have all been very competent books by my standards and I would hope Tyranids would follow in suit. Therefore, when an upgrade costs a strange amount of points (also when you compare a genestealer's points and wargear vs a basic space marine's points and wargear) it baffles the mind. Again, as i've said, we are looking at a very tiny snippet of an upcoming book so final judgment awaits...
Question...wouldn't preferred enemy on the scything talons be identical to what we have now? (ie re-rolling 1s to hit) but actually worse since two sets of scything talons is re-rolls to all hits? If that is the case then it makes NO sense why the price would double for them on Genestealers. I am seriously hoping there are some standard Tyranid army wide rules that help out with most units in question.
To be fair though the best part of the 5th ed Dex was the small bugs. Virtually all of them were decent and a massive upgrade from 4th to 5th (as the issue with the 4th ed dex was insanely overpriced small bugs). So if these ARE the final stats for our small critters then honestly I wont be too put out especially considering the massive discounts our MCs are seeing based on the rumors.
ghoulio wrote: Question...wouldn't preferred enemy on the scything talons be identical to what we have now? (ie re-rolling 1s to hit) but actually worse since two sets of scything talons is re-rolls to all hits? If that is the case then it makes NO sense why the price would double for them on Genestealers. I am seriously hoping there are some standard Tyranid army wide rules that help out with most units in question.
It would be better on a single set - you can re-roll 1s to wound as well as to hit.
We don't know what 2 sets would give you.
The points for hormagaunts adrenal glands compared to the increase rippers makes me think they DO grant fleet+FC - this would explain the genestealer cost not changing too. Unfortunately, it also means that the people designing these rules are so stupid that they think S4 and reasonably reliable assault charges are worth 17 points on a swarm and 7 on a T3 6+ model. I hope that the rest of the codex is really good because these troops are a bad joke. Compare Hormagaunts and Termagants to Kroot/Guardmen and cry. Compare Rippers to Canoptek Scarabs and wonder what they were thinking.
Very, very disappointed. Looks like yet more termagant and Tervigon troops until the next codex, because the rest just aren't worth taking. The only one with a chance is Warriors and that's only if their weapon options are super good, the synapse thing does grant EW AND Primes are cheapo HQs with no better options (AKA flyrants need to somehow be worse value than a prime). Sure, the rest of the codex might be awesome but any hope of a good swarm build just disappeared.
I am hoping that it's a 1 and not a 3. Looks like a 1 to me. But I will be crushed if toxin haunts are still 8 ppm. Hoping that adrenal glands are awesome and synergies nicely with their +3 run. Can also hope that the Onslaught power lets things run and assault, unles we get that power some other way.
Where are these chan 4 leaks coming from? Some people have said White Dwarf. But this seems like a lot of stat leaks for a WD article.
Call me suspicious but the piecemeal nature, the lack of a cited source, the fact that none of the big 40k rumor sites seems to give them much notice, coupled with some odd omission makes me think that this is part of an elaborate hoax.
Also all this leaks have been very blurry, unless that was intentional in order to launch debate why would you not just rescan it? The leaked photos are all fine.
BeeCee wrote: Is there any chance that is a 1 instead of a 3 for toxin sacs?
that is a bit disheartening that they end up being the same fully loaded. I just can't see running them without toxin.
Can't say that it is. Looks like you're paying the old price for gaunts with toxin sacs. On the plus side, scything talons may be buffed so they'll still be better than the old version.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Zookie wrote: Where are these chan 4 leaks coming from? Some people have said White Dwarf. But this seems like a lot of stat leaks for a WD article.
Call me suspicious but the piecemeal nature, the lack of a cited source, the fact that none of the big 40k rumor sites seems to give them much notice, coupled with some odd omission makes me think that this is part of an elaborate hoax.
It IS possible that some of this is a hoax, but he also posts the pictures along with them lending some credibility to it . That still doesn't rule out that the statlines are fake.
tetrisphreak wrote: I'm with Sinful Hero - until I see these in a white dwarf surrounded by a photobox and magazine text, It's hard to believe that we're getting identical stats and point costs for all our main troops (Bar termagants).
Why not? The Eldar codex was mostly a copy-pasta job of near-identical units and options with just a few points tweaked from the previous codex. Most of the key changes were in the form of army-wide special rules and improved weapons/wargear.
Also the source for these rules is the same guy providing pics of new units. I don't believe any other rumours about EW and so on, but I doubt these Troop entries are fake.
The big question now is if/how the core rules like biomorphs and weapons have changed.
Yeah not sure where you got that with the Eldar book? Almost every single unit was changed, perhaps not in stats but in wargear, abilities, etc..
BeeCee wrote: Is there any chance that is a 1 instead of a 3 for toxin sacs?
that is a bit disheartening that they end up being the same fully loaded. I just can't see running them without toxin.
Can't say that it is. Looks like you're paying the old price for gaunts with toxin sacs. On the plus side, scything talons may be buffed so they'll still be better than the old version.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Zookie wrote: Where are these chan 4 leaks coming from? Some people have said White Dwarf. But this seems like a lot of stat leaks for a WD article.
Call me suspicious but the piecemeal nature, the lack of a cited source, the fact that none of the big 40k rumor sites seems to give them much notice, coupled with some odd omission makes me think that this is part of an elaborate hoax.
It IS possible that some of this is a hoax, but he also posts the pictures along with them lending some credibility to it . That still doesn't rule out that the statlines are fake.
But the leaks have been very blurry, why would you not just rescan in? The leaked photos are all fine. I think it may be an intentional attempt hid the dissimilarities with font and design for previous codexes.
BeeCee wrote: Is there any chance that is a 1 instead of a 3 for toxin sacs?
that is a bit disheartening that they end up being the same fully loaded. I just can't see running them without toxin.
Can't say that it is. Looks like you're paying the old price for gaunts with toxin sacs. On the plus side, scything talons may be buffed so they'll still be better than the old version.
Zookie wrote:But the leaks have been very blurry, why would you not just rescan in? The leaked photos are all fine, not blurry at all. I think it may be an intentional attempt hid the dissimilarities with font and design for previous codexes.
That's because the model pictures are usually large page wide images, while the unit entries pictures are from thumbnails of the some of the codex pages that are only like 2cm wide; no matter how good a scanner you have, you can't scan in detail that's not there.
BeeCee wrote:my problem is at 8 ppm with toxin even if scytal are buffed, i have to get them there. sure they might run a little bit faster.
I was hoping to run quite a few of those little buggers again. going to try to remain positive.
Well, we don't know have any the info about scything talons, toxin sacs, adrenal glands, instinctive behaviour, synapse, the Tyranid psychic powers or any other buff other models might give them. Any of those could turn a mediocre unit into a great unit for all we know. I'll hold out with 'the sky is falling' comments until I have the codex in hand.
tetrisphreak wrote: I'm with Sinful Hero - until I see these in a white dwarf surrounded by a photobox and magazine text, It's hard to believe that we're getting identical stats and point costs for all our main troops (Bar termagants).
Why not? The Eldar codex was mostly a copy-pasta job of near-identical units and options with just a few points tweaked from the previous codex. Most of the key changes were in the form of army-wide special rules and improved weapons/wargear.
Also the source for these rules is the same guy providing pics of new units. I don't believe any other rumours about EW and so on, but I doubt these Troop entries are fake.
The big question now is if/how the core rules like biomorphs and weapons have changed.
Yeah not sure where you got that with the Eldar book? Almost every single unit was changed, perhaps not in stats but in wargear, abilities, etc..
Really?
Dire Avengers 4E:
5-10 models in the unit
One may be upgraded to an Exarch with:
>Twin shurikens, or
>Diresword + pistol, or
>Power weapon + shimmershield
May take 2 DA Exarch powers
May take a Wave serpent
Dire Avengers 6E:
5-10 models in the unit
One may be upgraded to an Exarch with:
>Twin shurikens, or
>Diresword + pistol, or
>Power weapon + shimmershield
May take select Exarch powers from the new shared list May take a Wave serpent
------
Guardians 4E:
10-20 models per unit
Must take weapon platform with one of 5 weapons
May take a wave serpent
Guardians 6E:
10-20 models per unit
May take weapon platform with one of 5 weapons
May take a wave serpent
------
Jetbikes 4E:
3-12 models per unit
Can take a shuricannon for every 3 models
Jetbikes 6E:
3-10 models per unit
Can take a shuricannon for every 3 models
--------
Vyper Squadron 4E:
Must take one of five heavy weapon choices
May replace shuripults with shuricannon
May choose vehicle upgrades
Vyper Squadron 6E:
Must take one of five heavy weapon choices
May replace shuripults with shuricannon
May choose vehicle upgrades
-------
Falcon 4E:
Must take one of five heavy weapon choices
May replace shuripults with shuricannon
May choose vehicle upgrades
Transports 6 models
Falcon 6E:
Must take one of five heavy weapon choices
May replace shuripults with shuricannon
May choose vehicle upgrades
Transports 6 models
The vast majority of stat changes in the Eldar book were applied across the board to non-Aspect units (BS4 / I5) - there was very little tweaking of specific unit statlines.
This comparison is very similar to what we're seeing for Nids right now... some points reductions/tweaks but very similar unit entries overall. The army list generally remained the same - there were no huge surprises like Guardians with multiple Bright Lance platforms or Wave Serpents with 5 HP. Hell, everyone was screaming that Serpents were way overcosted when that unit entry leaked (but before we saw Serpent Shield).
For Eldar, the big changes were in the armywide rules: Battle Focus, Shuriken weapons, Scatter Lasers, a centralised Exarch powers list, and generally stuff that isn't obvious from the main army list.
I have no doubt Nids will see the biggest shifts in many of the rules they share between units, and until they're out and people have the whole picture, they're going to continue crying over how terrible the new codex is going to be. Just like they did about Eldar 6 months ago.
Yeah my earlier fence sitting about whether or not I like the new Hive gaurd has definitely changed. Gimme three of those bad boys with crushing claws, hello crab attack!
However, the last whip looks a little to fat and chunky, but nothing good old green stuff cant sort out
I could never get into painting tyranids. I can't stand the flesh tones and the layering the chitin. It was too much work for an army that uses massive broods of termagants.
Hoping carnifexii can be spammed again. I miss 4th edition...
rollawaythestone wrote: I am hoping that it's a 1 and not a 3. Looks like a 1 to me. But I will be crushed if toxin haunts are still 8 ppm. Hoping that adrenal glands are awesome and synergies nicely with their +3 run. Can also hope that the Onslaught power lets things run and assault, unles we get that power some other way.
It's a 3 for Toxin Sacs. The upgrades are listed in ascending order by point cost. Look at the Ripper Swarm entry for comparison wtih the same upgrades.
I could never get into painting tyranids. I can't stand the flesh tones and the layering the chitin. It was too much work for an army that uses massive broods of termagants.
Hoping carnifexii can be spammed again. I miss 4th edition...
Check out Phil Kelly's Nids for a quick and good-looking paintjob.
Not sure if you're allowed to post stats like that, but it definately looks like the curve of a three. Too offset with the other numbers to be anything else. Kinda hope these leaks are true- even dropping hormies a point(without toxin sacs) makes me happy.
BeeCee wrote: it looks like a 3 to me. looks the same as the hormagaunt Str and T as well.
Look at the 3. The 3 is more curved. That is why I thought it was more a 5, like the Ld. I don't believe it's a 5 either, but I don't think it's a 3 since it's not curved.
BeeCee wrote:my problem is at 8 ppm with toxin even if scytal are buffed, i have to get them there. sure they might run a little bit faster.
I was hoping to run quite a few of those little buggers again. going to try to remain positive.
The Hormagaunts don't have to change if the rest of the army and army-wide special rules can better support them. It's not about units in a vacuum. They will never be running by themselves, and most of the monsters around them got cheaper (which means more threat saturation).
We want Hormagaunts to be playable, not broken. So far, it looks as though they will be a pinch cheaper, but we don't know what their special rules and biomorphs do. We also don't know what buffs they can get, or what combos will help them out. If GW were to reevaluate every unit in a vacuum and price them as such, the game would be even less balanced than it is now (and the 6th edition books can all play pretty nice against each other).
tetrisphreak wrote: I'm with Sinful Hero - until I see these in a white dwarf surrounded by a photobox and magazine text, It's hard to believe that we're getting identical stats and point costs for all our main troops (Bar termagants).
Why not? The Eldar codex was mostly a copy-pasta job of near-identical units and options with just a few points tweaked from the previous codex. Most of the key changes were in the form of army-wide special rules and improved weapons/wargear.
Also the source for these rules is the same guy providing pics of new units. I don't believe any other rumours about EW and so on, but I doubt these Troop entries are fake.
The big question now is if/how the core rules like biomorphs and weapons have changed.
Yeah not sure where you got that with the Eldar book? Almost every single unit was changed, perhaps not in stats but in wargear, abilities, etc..
Really?
Dire Avengers 4E:
5-10 models in the unit
One may be upgraded to an Exarch with:
>Twin shurikens, or
>Diresword + pistol, or
>Power weapon + shimmershield
May take 2 DA Exarch powers
May take a Wave serpent
Dire Avengers 6E:
5-10 models in the unit
One may be upgraded to an Exarch with:
>Twin shurikens, or
>Diresword + pistol, or
>Power weapon + shimmershield
May take select Exarch powers from the new shared list May take a Wave serpent
------
Guardians 4E:
10-20 models per unit
Must take weapon platform with one of 5 weapons
May take a wave serpent
Guardians 6E:
10-20 models per unit
May take weapon platform with one of 5 weapons
May take a wave serpent
------
Jetbikes 4E:
3-12 models per unit
Can take a shuricannon for every 3 models
Jetbikes 6E:
3-10 models per unit
Can take a shuricannon for every 3 models
--------
Vyper Squadron 4E:
Must take one of five heavy weapon choices
May replace shuripults with shuricannon
May choose vehicle upgrades
Vyper Squadron 6E:
Must take one of five heavy weapon choices
May replace shuripults with shuricannon
May choose vehicle upgrades
-------
Falcon 4E:
Must take one of five heavy weapon choices
May replace shuripults with shuricannon
May choose vehicle upgrades
Transports 6 models
Falcon 6E:
Must take one of five heavy weapon choices
May replace shuripults with shuricannon
May choose vehicle upgrades
Transports 6 models
The vast majority of stat changes in the Eldar book were applied across the board to non-Aspect units (BS4 / I5) - there was very little tweaking of specific unit statlines.
This comparison is very similar to what we're seeing for Nids right now... some points reductions/tweaks but very similar unit entries overall. The army list generally remained the same - there were no huge surprises like Guardians with multiple Bright Lance platforms or Wave Serpents with 5 HP. Hell, everyone was screaming that Serpents were way overcosted when that unit entry leaked (but before we saw Serpent Shield).
For Eldar, the big changes were in the armywide rules: Battle Focus, Shuriken weapons, Scatter Lasers, a centralised Exarch powers list, and generally stuff that isn't obvious from the main army list.
I have no doubt Nids will see the biggest shifts in many of the rules they share between units, and until they're out and people have the whole picture, they're going to continue crying over how terrible the new codex is going to be. Just like they did about Eldar 6 months ago.
Excellent post! Even once we have the codex in hand, it's going to take a lot of playing and tinkering to really get a feel for what's good.
Captain Fantastic wrote:Didn't they get a new codex in January of 2012?
I could never get into painting tyranids. I can't stand the flesh tones and the layering the chitin. It was too much work for an army that uses massive broods of termagants.
Hoping carnifexii can be spammed again. I miss 4th edition...
Tyranids got one in 2010, and it was terrible. Easily the worst of 5th edition.
Don't know why it matters that you can't paint them. Anyone can paint anything with practice.
4th edition was awful. Tyranids were a mono-build army that didn't look "Tyranid" at all. Once the Eldar and Orks codices came out, Tyranids were completely useless in 4th and 5th edition, and made even worse by their 5th edition codex.
Definitely a 3. If they were T5 S5, that'd be insane. 3 T5 wounds for 13 points would be amazing and actually worth the points for a unit which doesn't score but occupies troop slots. Maybe not even too much, would make them a little more durable than tactical marines yet they'd still have no guns and only be good in assault. Never happen though, GW apparently hates selling models other than large kits now, even though lots of infantry would be more profitable.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: Since Hormagaunts already have fleet, perhaps adrenal glands give Furious Charge and Rage now???
I would love to have Roid Raging Nids. It could be fluffed that way, but it might be a stretch. We really haven't had very many concrete rumors on what biomorphs do. Most of the important information is still up in the air right now.
So a few notes. What bases are the new tyrant guard on? Also a tyrant guard with crushing claws? Is it possible Tyrant guard have been upgraded to a MC?
rollawaythestone wrote: I am hoping that it's a 1 and not a 3. Looks like a 1 to me. But I will be crushed if toxin haunts are still 8 ppm. Hoping that adrenal glands are awesome and synergies nicely with their +3 run. Can also hope that the Onslaught power lets things run and assault, unles we get that power some other way.
Bloodhorror wrote: I think they are a lesser crushing claws that act as power fists.
PURE speculation!
It's possible that they are a means to AP2 for creatures that otherwise wouldn't get that with Boneswords.
Of course, one of the Hive Guard seems to be equipped with a Bonesword and Lashwhip. Unless you're referring to Boneswords being AP3?
Either way, wouldn't a powerfist be useless on a Carnifex or Tervigon?
Bloodhorror wrote: I think they are a lesser crushing claws that act as power fists.
PURE speculation!
It's possible that they are a means to AP2 for creatures that otherwise wouldn't get that with Boneswords.
Of course, one of the Hive Guard seems to be equipped with a Bonesword and Lashwhip. Unless you're referring to Boneswords being AP3?
Either way, wouldn't a powerfist be useless on a Carnifex or Tervigon?
Yes, Boneswords being AP3 was the catch there.
It may be a +S, or +A and AP2. Wraithknights I believe have a wargear option that give them +1S and some other stuff, even though they are already S10.
So the bonus attacks (if that's the case) still benefits the MC, while the lesser creatures benefit from both the extra attacks and the AP2.
Bloodhorror wrote: I think they are a lesser crushing claws that act as power fists.
PURE speculation!
It's possible that they are a means to AP2 for creatures that otherwise wouldn't get that with Boneswords.
Of course, one of the Hive Guard seems to be equipped with a Bonesword and Lashwhip. Unless you're referring to Boneswords being AP3?
Either way, wouldn't a powerfist be useless on a Carnifex or Tervigon?
Yes, Boneswords being AP3 was the catch there.
It may be a +S, or +A and AP2. Wraithknights I believe have a wargear option that give them +1S and some other stuff, even though they are already S10.
So the bonus attacks (if that's the case) still benefits the MC, while the lesser creatures benefit from both the extra attacks and the AP2.
Again, if any of that is true.
Makes sense to me. Still a benefit for Monstrous Creatures and smaller Tyranids. Of course all of this is conjecture at this point. At least we DO know that Tyrant Guard have quite a few different options to take.
And on another note, are those spore cysts on their pauldrons? Maybe a return of Spore Mine Cysts?
EDIT- Nope, nevermind. Just battle damage. Finally got a chance to see it from a computer. Of course Carnifexes still have the backplate...
I think with a little GS the tyrant guards can be made quite cool, they are almost there but the Lady Gaga shoulder spikes and the bare back need to be armored up I think... overlapping plating down the back/flanks raising the back height a touch and some larger hand plates contiguous to the forearms really make it look rock solid up-armored... to me anyways.
Not a fan of the peachy flesh wounds only on the shell plates as a painting or modelling decision... what, they get ravaged on the shell but the adjacent white areas are completely unscathed? Kinda like seeing a Jeep after off-roading but only the top of the hood and the back doors are muddy lol.
I know what it is I don't like about their paws now- too many fingers. Only other fingers like that are on genestealers secondary set of limbs. All other Tyranids have 3 fingers- even on their guns.
MajorTom11 wrote: I think with a little GS the tyrant guards can be made quite cool, they are almost there but the Lady Gaga shoulder spikes and the bare back need to be armored up I think... overlapping plating down the back/flanks raising the back height a touch and some larger hand plates contiguous to the forearms really make it look rock solid up-armored... to me anyways.
Not a fan of the peachy flesh wounds only on the shell plates as a painting or modelling decision... what, they get ravaged on the shell but the adjacent white areas are completely unscathed? Kinda like seeing a Jeep after off-roading but only the top of the hood and the back doors are muddy lol.
Anyways, conversion idea for those like-minded -
***Note*** the above awesomeness is Tom's photoshop, not the actual model! I was fooled when he showed it elsewhere at first... you've been warned.
I do like the models, but after seeing this easy fix they are a little bit of a let-down by comparison.
rigeld2 wrote: Swarmlord arm has 3 fingers plus thumb plus one that is a spike to lunch with or something...
Current warriors are 3+ thumb.
I don't have anything else within reach to look at.
Yeah, but the knuckledraggers are 4+thumb. Stranglethorn Cannon, Heavy Venom Cannon, Venom Cannon, Warrior Rending Claws, , Devourers, and Deathspitters all have 3 fingers plus thumb. Like I said, it seems the only other Tyranid with 4+thumb is the tiny Genestealer hands. Hive Guard(New are 2+Thumb, Old are 3+) and old Tyrant Guard have 3+Thumb.
Kind of odd though- The one Tyrant guard gripping the Marine head has 2+Thumb.
Spoiler:
Unshopped image to show 4 fingers plus thumb. You can also see the 2+thumb combo on the guard in the back.
Hmmm it does look like a 5, but there isn't a gap on the upper part of that, so it is most likely a 3. Besides, a T5 ripper doesn't make any sense.
Personally I am of a mind that these leaked stat lines are fake.
Here's the reasons why:
1. What is the source? All the post say it is from Chan4 but where did they get it? It is never stated. If the person has the whole codex, why not scan the whole codex? why release just unit summaries? Why do it in piecemeal fashion? Why start with old models and not a new release (other than it would be easier to guess without looking like wish listing). If it is from an early White Dwarf did it really have the stats for all the troop choices and none of the new releases? (Which people would want to read about).
2. There are really blurry but they don't look like direct photocopies or pictures. They look like a scan or PDF that was poorly converted to another format. Why would you release a leak like that? If you had a source document wouldn't you just scan it again and try to get a better copy? If they did not have full access to the source document wouldn't it make more sense that they snapped a cell phone pic when no one was looking rather than scan it. So why would they be blurry other to hide the signs of forgery?
3. It is missing some little pieces here and there. There is not entry for armor, no note of teeth and claws (which admittedly may have been dropped), no mention of brood telepathy (which would be weird just to drop without a rule addressing stealers relation to synapse), and rippers can buy deepstrike? Should it be that they can buy "tunnel" or "gliding wings" or "Ripper rain from the sky" that allows them to DS? It seems odd there would not be a name for the upgrade and not just the rule \.
Now I could be wrong but I think there are enough questions here that we should reluctant to accepts these stat lines as fact.
Hmmm it does look like a 5, but there isn't a gap on the upper part of that, so it is most likely a 3. Besides, a T5 ripper doesn't make any sense.
Personally I am of a mind that these leaked stat lines are fake.
Here's the reasons why:
1. What is the source? All the post say it is from Chan4 but where did they get it? It is never stated. If the person has the whole codex, why not scan the whole codex? why release just unit summaries? Why do it in piecemeal fashion? Why start with old models and not a new release (other than it would be easier to guess without looking like wish listing). If it is from an early White Dwarf did it really have the stats for all the troop choices and none of the new releases? (Which people would want to read about).
They supposedly are not from an early White Dwarf- they should already be printed, and probably sitting in a warehouse somewhere. If they are real, they are from a current White Dwarf.
2. There are really blurry but they don't look like direct photocopies or pictures. They look like a scan or PDF that was poorly converted to another format. Why would you release a leak like that? If you had a source document wouldn't you just scan it again and try to get a better copy? If they did not have full access to the source document wouldn't it make more sense that they snapped a cell phone pic when no one was looking rather than scan it. So why would they be blurry other to hide the signs of forgery?
Zookie wrote:But the leaks have been very blurry, why would you not just rescan in? The leaked photos are all fine, not blurry at all. I think it may be an intentional attempt hid the dissimilarities with font and design for previous codexes.
That's because the model pictures are usually large page wide images, while the unit entries pictures are from thumbnails of the some of the codex pages that are only like 2cm wide; no matter how good a scanner you have, you can't scan in detail that's not there.
3. It is missing some little pieces here and there. There is not entry for armor, no note of teeth and claws (which admittedly may have been dropped), no mention of brood telepathy (which would be weird just to drop without a rule addressing stealers relation to synapse), and rippers can buy deepstrike? Should it be that they can buy "tunnel" or "gliding wings" or "Ripper rain from the sky" that allows them to DS? It seems odd there would not be a name for the upgrade and not just the rule \.
Now I could be wrong but I think there are enough questions here that we should reluctant to accepts these stat lines as fact.
I'm assuming that if a unit doesn't have Instinctive Behavior, it behaves normally outside of synapse. They probably took out the "fluffy" Tunnel Swarm to cut down on buzzwords that have no real meaning outside of the codex. No point in calling something other than deep strike, when they deep strike.
I'm not saying you're wrong, and it is possible that these are false. But there is also the fact that they were posted from the same person who posted the pictures of the new Tyranid creatures.
Teeth and Claws and Brood Telepathy literally do nothing; if you remove them the models act exactly the same. I can see why they would remove them and replaced Tunnel Swarm with Deep Strike to reduce clutter and the unnecessary looking up of rules/wargear.
The same goes for the armour wargear - most nids have a static armour value you can just read in their statline, so for the ones that can upgrade their armour they could just make a single biomorph that improves the armour save by 1.
Hmm, I cant say that I'm a fan of the tails on the tyrant guard having looked at them more closely.
That they had shorter stumpy tails and woodlousey vibe was one of the things that I liked about the old models
It kind of fitted with the shield bug fluff far better although the models were always a bit small compared to their statline and the tyrant.
Fearless
instinctive behaviour feed
And something else beginning with S. I thought it was spine fists but it lists that as an upgrade...
Their special rules are Fearless, Swarms and Instinctive Behaviour: Feed
They have optional upgrades for Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands, Deep Strike and Spinefists. I'm guessing from the cost that Spinefists still have a number of shots based on the model's attack characteristic.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: Since Hormagaunts already have fleet, perhaps adrenal glands give Furious Charge and Rage now???
If you assume that Feed does something different now.
Oh I have no doubt it will. Being out of Synapse range is supposed to be bad for Nids, not making them uber killers.
I guess (and hope) that Instinctive Behaviour would return to simply dictating what actions a Tyranid model can perform when out of Synapse. So Feed would have to move toward/charge the nearest enemy, Lurk would have them sit still and shoot the nearest enemy.
However I see no reason for Feed units not to retain Fearless. This would make more sense than giving boosts like Rage or FC, as it fits the fluff and means they're not really gaining anything from being out of synapse.
A throwback to the old "Tyrant Guard have borrowed some of the more useful traits from Astartes genetics" line perhaps? Fused rib-cages, humanoid hands as a quirk?
Horrible looking lash whips. Fat, clumsy, amateurish. I guess it's a trade for sturdiness, the current good-looking whips break easily (perhaps because finecast).
The number 4 note is interesting 'The army list contains entries for all the Tyranid miniatures currently available'. So it's a possibility to expect new rules for the Red Terror?
What are you talking about? That picture is fine, probably even done with a scanner, considering you can even see the ink blots on the enlarged versions.
<in response to someone asking about Apex Biomorphs>
I cannot, because there is no mention about such a thing in WD.
There is a bit about "unique bio-artefacts" (only this bit, no more), along with "new Instinctive Behaviour tables (Feed, Lurk, Hunt).
>>TABLES!
"The army list itself caters for all existing Tyranid models and includes profiles and rles for all the new kits released this mont, too (...)"
Also, another word for dakkites: technology for photographing/scanning may be great, but printing technology is as it is. You want maximum close up? You will get some paint dots. Whiners.
I look forward to the new 'dex and mini's, having a soft spot for the bugs for a long time now. They are not an army i play, but i get a big bug kit every now and again to paint up and display at home.
I don't understand printing quality.. Is he saying the printed text is PIXELATED? I had not realized we were living in a digital reality!@ the horror!
Since the photo is highly pixelated due to the low quality of the picture.. I don't see how printing quality makes a difference. It's not like this it the first time we've had abysmally bad pictures taken, I just still don't understand how such pictures occur given todays technology unless you're using a 2005 flip phone.
I think what he's saying is that the actual words on the printed page are too small to make out (being that the page contains a reproduction of the actual Codex page, only smaller). So in the end it wouldn't matter how good a picture or scan he took of the WD page if the picture in question wasn't of a good enough quality to read in the first place.
Or, to put it another way, if I print a page that has a low-res picture in the middle of it and take a picture of that page with a 10,000 giga-pixel super-camera, that picture in the middle of the page is still going to be low res.
Kirasu wrote: I don't understand printing quality.. Is he saying the printed text is PIXELATED? I had not realized we were living in a digital reality!@ the horror!
Magazines and such are printed in little dots (pixels). The codex previews in the WD are only about 2 CM wide, so no matter how much you zoom in on them, you can't get sharp text if a letter is like 4 dots big.
So there's something about these pictures that I don't understand. Maybe someone could help me out.
Looking at that White Dwarf page, there are two entries. I can't make out the small print, obviously, but the large print I can read. One page is titled "Genestealers". On that page, there are two entries in the statbox. I think we can safely assume that one statline is for the genestealers and one is for the Broodlord. Makes sense.
Now, applying that same logic, look at the "Gants" page. Obviously, they combined the gants into one page, because in the previous edition codex, Termagants and Hormagaunts have a separate page for each (which, side note, why is it termaGANTS and hormaGAUNTS? shouldn't it be hormaGANTS?).
Anyway, on the Gants page, there are 3 statlines in the box. I'm sure one is for Termagants, and one is for Hormagaunts....
"Gaunts" is a reference to the 3rd edition book, in which you could build your own.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
N.I.B. wrote: Horrible looking lash whips. Fat, clumsy, amateurish. I guess it's a trade for sturdiness, the current good-looking whips break easily (perhaps because finecast).
I think the perspective (the whip is coming toward the camera somewhat) is distorting it.
I've never looked forward to a codex more to be honest, really don't even care if they aren't playable, just want to know the basics to build an assault army
timd wrote: Hmmm, are those new styles of Tyranid space ships in the background illustration behind the "Second Tyrannic War" text box?
T
Certainly looks like it.
There has never been enough stuff on the Tyranids in space. There should be more on what it is like to fight the Tyranids on their home turf (they are a void-dwelling race, after all). The overwhelming terror you feel as your fragile, metal casket (or battleship) is grappled by a creature tens of kilometers long and quickly ripped to pieces. The total eclipse of hope as you look out into the void and see the starts blotted out by a living cloud of spores, drones and Hive Ships. Even just some more on the feeding process would be nice...
From the leaked Army entry, we see that there is a lack of instinctive behaviour on Termagants, yet it is present on Hormagaunts... which is interesting.
stonehorse wrote: From the leaked Army entry, we see that there is a lack of instinctive behaviour on Termagants, yet it is present on Hormagaunts... which is interesting.
buddha wrote: Fluffwise I just hope they explain that stripping a planet bare would take many years rather than like the stupid week it seems to take now.
Plus it would give them more depth as a slow, creeping menace and actually give them a reason to defend something for once.
the process probably speeds way the hell up once the planet is defenceless and all biomass can be converted to rippers. I'm sure a rainstorm of rippers covering an entire planet wouldnt take long to eat everything.
buddha wrote: Fluffwise I just hope they explain that stripping a planet bare would take many years rather than like the stupid week it seems to take now.
Plus it would give them more depth as a slow, creeping menace and actually give them a reason to defend something for once.
They are already very slow thanks to their FTL drive. Plus they stripping a planet bare in weeks is part of the Tyranid Fluff.
There has never been enough stuff on the Tyranids in space. There should be more on what it is like to fight the Tyranids on their home turf (they are a void-dwelling race, after all). The overwhelming terror you feel as your fragile, metal casket (or battleship) is grappled by a creature tens of kilometers long and quickly ripped to pieces. The total eclipse of hope as you look out into the void and see the starts blotted out by a living cloud of spores, drones and Hive Ships. Even just some more on the feeding process would be nice...
Agreed. Have been working on a Tyranid BFG fleet and the metal hive ships are nice, but much too small. Reaper's Bones 2 kickstarter featured a huge "Kraken" model that will (with mods) be my new uber class hive ship:
http://www.reapermini.com/forum/index.php?/topic/48595-30017-kraken/
stonehorse wrote: From the leaked Army entry, we see that there is a lack of instinctive behaviour on Termagants, yet it is present on Hormagaunts... which is interesting.
buddha wrote: Fluffwise I just hope they explain that stripping a planet bare would take many years rather than like the stupid week it seems to take now.
Plus it would give them more depth as a slow, creeping menace and actually give them a reason to defend something for once.
They are already very slow thanks to their FTL drive. Plus they stripping a planet bare in weeks is part of the Tyranid Fluff.
.
I understand it is part of the fluff, I just wish they'd retcon it for the new book.
I actually like the idea of multiple overmind like creatures. Reminds me of the cerbretaes from Starcraft (yes I know the whole thing was stolen from GW but still, I like the idea).
2x210 wrote: I'm hearing chatter that there are now multiple Hive Minds with varying personalities in the fluff? Please tell me it's BS
"Codex: tyranids is both a hugely evocative read and the ultimate resource for budding hive minds everywhere"
Except whoever read this decided to go with the idiotic idea of hurr hive mindssssss instead of "budding hive minds" being an amusing way of referencing players.
So no. No multiple Hive Minds.
Codex Tyranids 5th Edition page 6; The Tyranids wrote:The Hive Fleets - The Tyranid Hive Fleets consist of millions of many-tendrilled spacecraft. Each vessel is itself a gigantic living creature, home to countless numbers of lesser organisms grown in the bubbling organ-sacs of the vessel's reproductive chambers. All of these creatures are born to serve the single entity that is the ship, and the ship itself exists only as part of the entity of the Hive Fleet.
The Magos Biologis of the Imperium categorises each Tyranid incursion as a separate force, an individual fleet that works to its own agenda and competes with other Hive Fleets for resources. Indeed, the separate Hive Fleets appear to be self-sufficient, exhibiting different, characteristic strategies and developing unique creaturest o overcome their prey. However, the truth is more complex than any could imagine, for each Hive Fleet is but a splinter of one greater assemblage, acting under the instructions of a single monstrous and unfathomable intelligence - the Hive Mind.
The Hive Mind The Hive Mind holds all Tyranids creatures in a psychic bond that enables them to act together as one gestalt organism.
New models = cool.
Tyrant Guard = super cool
Some enhancement to Horms, Genes and warriors and i'm happy. They're my favourite models since i was a kid (3rd)
Non linear competitive lists would also be beneficial for most.
Codex Tyranids 5th Edition page 6; The Tyranids wrote:The Hive Fleets - The Tyranid Hive Fleets consist of millions of many-tendrilled spacecraft. Each vessel is itself a gigantic living creature, home to countless numbers of lesser organisms grown in the bubbling organ-sacs of the vessel's reproductive chambers. All of these creatures are born to serve the single entity that is the ship, and the ship itself exists only as part of the entity of the Hive Fleet.
The Magos Biologis of the Imperium categorises each Tyranid incursion as a separate force, an individual fleet that works to its own agenda and competes with other Hive Fleets for resources. Indeed, the separate Hive Fleets appear to be self-sufficient, exhibiting different, characteristic strategies and developing unique creaturest o overcome their prey. However, the truth is more complex than any could imagine, for each Hive Fleet is but a splinter of one greater assemblage, acting under the instructions of a single monstrous and unfathomable intelligence - the Hive Mind.
The Hive Mind The Hive Mind holds all Tyranids creatures in a psychic bond that enables them to act together as one gestalt organism.
One step closer to getting my mustache-twirling negotiating Tyranids
Codex Tyranids 5th Edition page 6; The Tyranids wrote:The Hive Fleets - The Tyranid Hive Fleets consist of millions of many-tendrilled spacecraft. Each vessel is itself a gigantic living creature, home to countless numbers of lesser organisms grown in the bubbling organ-sacs of the vessel's reproductive chambers. All of these creatures are born to serve the single entity that is the ship, and the ship itself exists only as part of the entity of the Hive Fleet.
The Magos Biologis of the Imperium categorises each Tyranid incursion as a separate force, an individual fleet that works to its own agenda and competes with other Hive Fleets for resources. Indeed, the separate Hive Fleets appear to be self-sufficient, exhibiting different, characteristic strategies and developing unique creaturest o overcome their prey. However, the truth is more complex than any could imagine, for each Hive Fleet is but a splinter of one greater assemblage, acting under the instructions of a single monstrous and unfathomable intelligence - the Hive Mind.
The Hive Mind The Hive Mind holds all Tyranids creatures in a psychic bond that enables them to act together as one gestalt organism.
One step closer to getting my mustache-twirling negotiating Tyranids
We already had them in 2nd edition, so it wouldn't be unprecedented.
Though to be fair, their 'negotiation' was like the Tau. 'Oppose us, and we will consume you. Join us and we will... erm, consume you'.
Zoats were the talking ones that acted as diplomats, but that was RT-era fluff that never made the transition into 2nd Ed. Since then the Hive Mind has remained an unknowable vast intelligence that cannot be spoken to nor reasoned with.
And I hope it stays that way. We don't need any Wardian retcon bs messing with the Tyranids.
buddha wrote: Fluffwise I just hope they explain that stripping a planet bare would take many years rather than like the stupid week it seems to take now.
Plus it would give them more depth as a slow, creeping menace and actually give them a reason to defend something for once.
They are already very slow thanks to their FTL drive. Plus they stripping a planet bare in weeks is part of the Tyranid Fluff.
.
I understand it is part of the fluff, I just wish they'd retcon it for the new book.
I actually like the idea of multiple overmind like creatures. Reminds me of the cerbretaes from Starcraft (yes I know the whole thing was stolen from GW but still, I like the idea).
No no NO. Each fleet taking on a consciousness is one thing, but the idea of one, mysterious Hive Mind ancient beyond reckoning, existing dozens of galaxies away is far cooler than the Starcraft mess.
What I hope to never see is that the Hive Mind is linked to other races, a C'Tan, a leftover of the Old Ones, a Chaos Deity, Lucipher reincarnated, or some other BS.
Keep them truly alien, carnal, and with a need only to consume for the sake of sustenance. I also hope we never get an origin story of the Hive Mind. Keep it zillions of light years away and completely inaccessible to the other races. Tyranids are truly unique in that regard, and I hope they stay that way.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Negotiating Tyranids? I don't remember that at all.
Weren't they basically just sentient bugs back in the RT/2e days, even making treaties/trade agreements with other specieis?
Not as far as I recall.
Zoats were sort of ambassadors in RT, but I don't think they made the cut in the 2nd Ed Codex.
Long time ago though, so could be wrong.
That was before GW knew where they wanted to go with Tyranids. This is better. If something was remotely alien GW used to just assign it to Tyranids.
Zoats were not in the 2nd edition codex. At least not their rules. I'm glad Tyranids have a more unified theme now, and that they are becoming more distinctly their own. I would have been annoyed if it was simply an army of giant wasps and slugs.
Tyranids are truly unique in that regard, and I hope they stay that way. .
Yup. Tyranids are the only species in the Milky Way that actually took the giant leap and travelled from another galaxy to ours. So exciting. So mysterious. Too bad Google didn't exist when the 'budding scientists' at GW wrote this crap. If you can travel through the Milky Way you can travel to the nearest galaxies, and quite possibly to Andromeda too. I never understood why Eldar or Necrons don't travel to other galaxies ("everyone is fighting in this gak hole, let's bail out") or why more races don't originate from there, but I guess the '40K galaxy' is in the 'earth is flat and if you go to the edge you'll fall off and die' phase, where nothing outside it can possibly exist. Except Tyranids of course. They're special.
No need to be so cynical about it (said me, of all people). The "Extragalactic Threat" is a pretty normal sci-fi trope, and in 40K that trope exists with the Tyranids. Eldar get the "Fallen Super-Race" trope and Necrons get the "Ancient Superior Race" trope. They can't all have everything.
Tyranids are truly unique in that regard, and I hope they stay that way. .
Yup. Tyranids are the only species in the Milky Way that actually took the giant leap and travelled from another galaxy to ours. Too bad Google didn't exist when the 'budding scientists' at GW wrote this crap. If you can travel through the Milky Way you can travel to the nearest galaxies, and quite possibly to Andromeda too. I never understood why Eldar or Necrons don't travel to other galaxies ("everyone is fighting in this gak hole, let's bail out") or why more races don't originate from there, but I guess the '40K galaxy' is in the 'earth is flat and if you go to the edge you'll fall off and die' phase, where nothing outside it can possibly exist. Except Tyranids of course. They're special.
...Are you serious? The milky way is some 100,000 light years in diameter. The closet large galaxy (Andromeda) is some 250 million light years away. Thats some 2,500 times greater than the diameter of the milky way.
Looks like you are the one who should have googled...
Tyranids are truly unique in that regard, and I hope they stay that way. .
Yup. Tyranids are the only species in the Milky Way that actually took the giant leap and travelled from another galaxy to ours. So exciting. So mysterious. Too bad Google didn't exist when the 'budding scientists' at GW wrote this crap. If you can travel through the Milky Way you can travel to the nearest galaxies, and quite possibly to Andromeda too. I never understood why Eldar or Necrons don't travel to other galaxies ("everyone is fighting in this gak hole, let's bail out") or why more races don't originate from there, but I guess the '40K galaxy' is in the 'earth is flat and if you go to the edge you'll fall off and die' phase, where nothing outside it can possibly exist. Except Tyranids of course. They're special.
And Orks .
As for the Eldar, the Webway seems to be limited to this galaxy.
And for the Crons, they were just retconned to the Webway.
Tyranids are truly unique in that regard, and I hope they stay that way. .
Yup. Tyranids are the only species in the Milky Way that actually took the giant leap and travelled from another galaxy to ours. Too bad Google didn't exist when the 'budding scientists' at GW wrote this crap. If you can travel through the Milky Way you can travel to the nearest galaxies, and quite possibly to Andromeda too. I never understood why Eldar or Necrons don't travel to other galaxies ("everyone is fighting in this gak hole, let's bail out") or why more races don't originate from there, but I guess the '40K galaxy' is in the 'earth is flat and if you go to the edge you'll fall off and die' phase, where nothing outside it can possibly exist. Except Tyranids of course. They're special.
...Are you serious? The milky way is some 100,000 light years in diameter. The closet large galaxy (Andromeda) is some 250 million light years away. Thats some 2,500 times greater than the diameter of the milky way.
Looks like you are the one who should have googled...
Tyranids are truly unique in that regard, and I hope they stay that way. .
Yup. Tyranids are the only species in the Milky Way that actually took the giant leap and travelled from another galaxy to ours. Too bad Google didn't exist when the 'budding scientists' at GW wrote this crap. If you can travel through the Milky Way you can travel to the nearest galaxies, and quite possibly to Andromeda too. I never understood why Eldar or Necrons don't travel to other galaxies ("everyone is fighting in this gak hole, let's bail out") or why more races don't originate from there, but I guess the '40K galaxy' is in the 'earth is flat and if you go to the edge you'll fall off and die' phase, where nothing outside it can possibly exist. Except Tyranids of course. They're special.
...Are you serious? The milky way is some 100,000 light years in diameter. The closet large galaxy (Andromeda) is some 250 million light years away. Thats some 2,500 times greater than the diameter of the milky way.
Looks like you are the one who should have googled...
Andromeda isn't the closest galaxy -- Not by a long shot. So go and launch that Google boy. Besides, even if it was, you have the technology to go 150K light years, you'll have the technology to go 150M light years. It'll just take longer, depending on what kind of sci-fi wormhole junk drives you're using. As far as I know neither the Eldar nor Necrons die of age so it's not like they couldn't have taken a nap and bailed out. To me the problem is why you'd take that trip, and which direction you should go, since you'll find a galaxy and billions of stars no matter which vector you take
Wrong, it is at 2,5 million light years.
Cheers. The distance isn't a staggering amount more than the diameter of the Milky Way. It's a lot more, but even us tiny earthlings should be able to comprehend that number still.
They may not have the resources, for one. They may not be able to bring the ability to terraform (or whatever equivalent) with them if they do. Also, most races are going to fight for their homeland, as it were, and are connected to each other through some link in the 40k past. Going from one galaxy to another is a much more colossal task than traveling in the one you come from. Plus, there may not be anything for them once they get there. It's not like a galaxy is small either. It certainly makes the fluff more believable than Warmachine or Warhammer Fantasy where every faction is somehow equally in control of, and fighting over one chunk of land. It probably takes a tremendous amount of resources and technology (to function perfectly, mind you) to travel from one part of the galaxy to another, let alone to another galaxy more than a hundred times that distance away. All while not knowing what's between here and there, on top of it. We toss around the numbers as if they are minimal, but our "puny brains" probably couldn't comprehend it.
Aren't the means of wormhole space travel limited to known destinations for most races in the 40k universe? The ships are also super ancient, so if anything happens to them in the void between galaxies, they are screwed for like...ever. At least in this galaxy they can wind up near some place where they may be able to repair and refuel diplomatically.
As an aside: If I'm not mistaken, the Silent King (who has no rules, for some reason) did travel outside the galaxy, saw the Tyranids, wet himself, and then returned to wake up his old friends. So it is possible for some I guess.
No one knows where the Tyranids come from, or how far they are spread out. That's a great story. They didn't do it to be lazy, or because they didn't hit a deadline. It's just better this way and unique to Tyranids. GW has had plenty of opportunities to rewrite the fluff (which they have been known to do) since the advent of Google. Instead, they keep it as interesting as it is uncertain.
I don't know what part of that idea pissed you off out of nowhere, Therion, but you really didn't present anything sensible. You lamely attacked a single line of my post as if I or GW did something to you by keeping the Tyranids interesting and semi-mysterious instead of copy+pasting the same Starcraft fluff (re: terrible) used in every other science fiction saga.
As I've said before, what they have going is a far better fluff piece than saying the Hive Mind is some C'Tan, or lost Chaos deity, or an Eldar consciousness that spawned when Eldar had an eating disorder, or a disgruntled Primarch that quietly snuck away, or the Emperor's neglected biology experiment, or the manifest prophecy of the Old Ones...
Allowing the Tyranids to be the one disconnected species makes them an ever-present threat to everyone. Whereas Chaos is only capable of corrupting the weak, and Necrons need souls/hosts, and Eldar rely on experience and stealth, and Orks need war, and Tau need campaigns to take place elsewhere so they can sneakily assimilate a system - but all races can interact diplomatically with each other - Tyranids don't care. Or rather, they have no knowledge of such things, or a desire to obtain it.
It's nice to see that GW has created a relatively unique race in that way, even if some of the aesthetics are borrowed designs (as are all). Once again, it's also nice that we didn't just get an army of wasps and slugs. Tyranids are becoming more and more unique, and their being truly the most alien is a part of that.
You clearly misunderstood. I don't consider the Tyranids lame. They're one of the good ones, in comparison. What they are not however is in any way shape or form original. Very few things (if any) in 40K is, contrary to popular belief.
If you're curious, I think the most interesting species in the 40K background is the Old Ones who simply left (or disappeared, whatever) after dropping random DNA here and there. Why wouldn't you leave if every star system is an extinction level warzone? My whole point, which you can in no way deny, is that GW's basic view on the 40K universe is intensely myopic and therefore doesn't reflect the real universe much or at all. The distances don't make any sense and the 'whatever device' explanations preventing intergalactic travel aren't believable. It wouldn't be so misleading and annoying if they didn't use real names like Terra and the Milky Way.
Your examples about the junk they wrote about the other races are good, and I agree. Even the entire Horus Heresy which is somehow supposed to be GW's franchise defining story is a bunch of childish garbage -- And by that I don't mean the specific writing of Dan Abnett or whoever -- I mean the actual story about a band of brothers going emo because daddy didn't give them enough attention and then going on a genocidal rampage bent on wiping their own species out. Even the bottomline of that story falls flat since there's an endless amount of galaxies out there -- You're not the master of the universe if you control this galaxy or wipe out all life here. I can't see why the Milky Way would even be very important in the grand scheme of things.
Feel free to get back on the topic of Tyranid rumours anytime you want guys. I won't derail it further.
Therion wrote: You clearly misunderstood. I don't consider the Tyranids lame. They're one of the good ones, in comparison. What they are not however is in any way shape or form original. Very few things (if any) in 40K is, contrary to popular belief.
No, I didn't misunderstand. Clearly or otherwise. Nothing in science fiction/fantasy is original. Nothing. It all comes from something inspired, so as an argument...well, it isn't an argument.
Despite starting from borrowed elements (as everything in sci-fi is), Tyranids are becoming more and more distinctly their own, however. That's a fact.
Therion wrote: I think the most interesting species in the 40K background is the Old Ones who simply left (or disappeared, whatever). Why wouldn't you leave if every star system is an extinction level warzone? My whole point, which you can in no way deny, is that GW's basic view on the 40K universe is intensely myopic and therefore doesn't reflect the real universe much or at all. The distances don't make any sense and the 'whatever device' explanations preventing intergalactic travel aren't believable. It wouldn't be so misleading and annoying if they didn't use real names like Terra and the Milky Way.
So the complaint is how unrealistic it is, yet something more unrealistic would have made it better? The unbelievable means of travel would make more sense if longer distances were utilized?
Even the Old Ones are shrouded in mystery because we have no idea what the hell they are supposed to be. Tyranids remaining shrouded as a present story line (the Old Ones being no more, essentially), but completely alien to the other races is fascinating. What I'm saying is that it would be ULTRA-lame if it turns out the Hive Mind is just the Old Ones sending Tyranids from far away because they couldn't handle hanging out here anymore. If they wanted to flee the galaxy because they hated what it had become, why bother sending something back? Enjoy playing in your new galaxy. Clearly the races occupying the Milky Way are keeping each other busy enough.
Therion wrote: Your examples about the junk they wrote about the other races are good, and I agree. Even the entire Horus Heresy which is somehow supposed to be GW's franchise defining story is a bunch of childish garbage -- And by that I don't mean the specific writing of Dan Abnett or whoever -- I mean the actual story about a band of brothers going emo because daddy didn't give them enough attention and then going on a genocidal rampage bent on wiping their own species out. Even the bottomline of that story falls flat since there's an endless amount of galaxies out there -- You're not the master of the universe if you control this galaxy or wipe out all life here. I can't see why the Milky Way would even be very important in the grand scheme of things.
As for "junk" and "childish garbage," that's your opinion. Really what you think of the Horus Heresy has no bearing on this discussion. I haven't gotten much out of the story, personally, but it's starting to resonate outside the realm of 40k players. There are people who haven't played the game, and probably never will, who buy Black Library novels.
The 40k universe went from being a bunch of borrowed sci-fi ideas (in general to get a sci-fi table top game going), to something all it's own. Sure, many of the borrowed elements remain - as a means of connecting to the lowest common denominator - but the more GW fleshes it out, the more interesting in becomes.
Tyranids being the most alien, and completely disconnected is one that needs to remain; otherwise it just becomes another stupid Zerg/Protoss, or Forerunner/Covenant type story.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On topic: I hope Spore Mines will be useful.
So the complaint is how unrealistic it is, yet something more unrealistic would have made it better? The unbelievable means of travel would make more sense if longer distances were utilized?
You seem to have decided to argue this subject and started with a couple of strawmen, so either make a new thread, stop, or just be honest and say you want this thread locked. I can oblige.
It's called suspension of disbelief. I'll go along with near instantaneous space travel and psykers. I'll start having problems when GW tries to make it seem like they're seriously talking about astronomy when they're getting even the most basic concepts wrong.
Tyranids being the most alien, and completely disconnected is one that needs to remain; otherwise it just becomes another stupid Starcraft type story.
How exactly are Tyranids the most alien? Tyranids aren't very far removed from something you find in the animal kingdom. Just because they float in space doesn't make them most alien but I guess you're entitled to your opinion. To me the most alien are immortal energy beings who feed on stars for millions of years and only ever became aware of small biological entities after getting captured by a particularly advanced one, but to each their own.
That's the third time you mention Starcraft in this thread. I guess you don't like the Zerg very much.
Tyranids are truly unique in that regard, and I hope they stay that way. .
Yup. Tyranids are the only species in the Milky Way that actually took the giant leap and travelled from another galaxy to ours. So exciting. So mysterious. Too bad Google didn't exist when the 'budding scientists' at GW wrote this crap. If you can travel through the Milky Way you can travel to the nearest galaxies, and quite possibly to Andromeda too. I never understood why Eldar or Necrons don't travel to other galaxies ("everyone is fighting in this gak hole, let's bail out") or why more races don't originate from there, but I guess the '40K galaxy' is in the 'earth is flat and if you go to the edge you'll fall off and die' phase, where nothing outside it can possibly exist. Except Tyranids of course. They're special.
Probably because Tyranids are the only race who could organize and endure a "generation fleet" style sub-FTL emigration from one galaxy to another. Everybody else would get bored and fractious on the way.
So the complaint is how unrealistic it is, yet something more unrealistic would have made it better? The unbelievable means of travel would make more sense if longer distances were utilized?
You seem to have decided to argue this subject and started with a couple of strawmen, so either make a new thread, stop, or just be honest and say you want this thread locked. I can oblige.
It's called suspension of disbelief. I'll go along with near instantaneous space travel and psykers. I'll start having problems when GW tries to make it seem like they're seriously talking about astronomy when they're getting even the most basic concepts wrong.
Tyranids being the most alien, and completely disconnected is one that needs to remain; otherwise it just becomes another stupid Starcraft type story.
How exactly are Tyranids the most alien? Tyranids aren't very far removed from something you find in the animal kingdom. Just because they float in space doesn't make them most alien but I guess you're entitled to your opinion. To me the most alien are immortal energy beings who feed on stars for millions of years and only ever became aware of small biological entities after getting captured by a particularly advanced one, but to each their own.
That's the third time you mention Starcraft in this thread. I guess you don't like the Zerg very much.
Tyranids are the most alien because they have no society, culture, individuality or personality. They are "alien" merely through the absence of assigned, human-like traits.
C'Tan may be made out of energy and eat stars, but they still act like humans a lot of the time. Same thing for Daemons, Chaos gods, Eldar, and most of the other "eldritch" and "fey" races in the 40K setting. They are only "alien" from a superficial physical standpoint -- they still act in ways that are meaningful to human experience. I can imagine what it feels like to be a Dark Eldar pirate or a Bloodthirster, but it's tough to put myself in the mindset of a Termagant.
To be fair, it's hard to imagine yourself as a broken, pseudo-human robot, as well. But it's easy to imagine yourself as a human mind in a robotic body, so the latest incarnation of Necron fluff dropped them to #2 most alien behind the Tyranids, in my opinion.
I completely agree with you that Tyranids aren't particularly alien from a biological standpoint, and your comparison to examples from the animal kingdom. But that's not what makes them the most alien race in 40K (which is relative, of course; they're still far less alien than some of the races you can find in the hard sci-fi genre without looking too hard).
Tyran wrote: You guys know that comparing the Tyranids to the animal kingdom is like comparing the US military to a bunch of cavemen with sticks and stones right?
Which, I would argue, is a valid comparison to make. They're both just throwing sharp, fast stuff with malicious intent, only the US military's stuff is a lot sharper and a lot faster.
tetrisphreak wrote: I'm still wracking my brain trying to figure out what scything talons, toxin sacs, and adrenal glands will do in the new book.
My guesses (nothing new here I'm afraid):
Scything Talons: +1 attack per pair
Toxin Sacs: Confer Poison (4+) to both close combat and shooting attacks made by the model
Adrenal Glands: Confer Fleet and Furious Charge. If the model already has the Fleet special rule, (X undetermined bonus). Hope it's run + charge in the same turn!
AgeOfEgos wrote: Take the fluff discussion to the appropriate forum and stay OT---thanks.
Ryan
To be fair, all of that fluff discussion spiraled off of a rumour about new fluff in the codex. There are more than just rules in there, y'know!
tetrisphreak wrote: I'm still wracking my brain trying to figure out what scything talons, toxin sacs, and adrenal glands will do in the new book.
My guesses (nothing new here I'm afraid):
Scything Talons: +1 attack per pair
Toxin Sacs: Confer Poison (4+) to both close combat and shooting attacks made by the model
Adrenal Glands: Confer Fleet and Furious Charge. If the model already has the Fleet special rule, (X undetermined bonus). Hope it's run + charge in the same turn!
If scything talons changed from reroll 1's to hit in melee, and all misses when you have 2 pairs to +1 attack....well....trygons base stats would have to be tweaked, and it would likely result in a massive nerf for them (either going to base 4 attack with 2 sets, getting them back to 6 attacks, but losing the rerolls, or going up to 8 attacks with no rerolls, which is a lateral move). It might also make some "interesting" creature possibilities with 6 attack tyrants and 4 attack tyrant guard. At the very least it would explain the points increase on genestealers.
Toxin-sacs won't change. They can't affect ranged units, it would be extremely over powered. Imagine dev gaunts with toxins sacs provided by a tervigon, they'd be the best shooting unit in the game point for point. (8 each, 3 S4 attack that always wound on a 4+).
Adrenal has to be changing. I think you've got the main measure of it as well.
I... may be unique in this regard, but my favorite version of the Tyranid Warrior was the one in Space Crusade.
The detailing was not as sharp, and they had buck teeth, but I just liked them better.... Maybe it was the fact that you could see their internal organs?
But then I also liked the Chaos Dreadnaught in the game....
It looks like I was wrong about the stat line leaks. This concerns me about state of our troop choices. That was a weak point in the last codex and all the bells and whistles of new MCs is not going to change that (unless they have a bunch of aura buffs).
Honestly I think what is going to make or break this codex is not going to be new models (which look good) but army wide rules and biomorphs. I suspect toxin sacs will remain the same and so will scything talons (though I think they may make 2 CCW=+1 attacks).
As for adrenal glands, shadow in the warp, and synapse. I have no idea what they are going to do. But I think it is going to have to be something that really bolsters the Troop choices, or the nids are going to continue to struggle.
TheAuldGrump wrote: I... may be unique in this regard, but my favorite version of the Tyranid Warrior was the one in Space Crusade.
The detailing was not as sharp, and they had buck teeth, but I just liked them better.... Maybe it was the fact that you could see their internal organs?
But then I also liked the Chaos Dreadnaught in the game....
The Auld Grump
I have 3 Tyranid Primes built from Space Crusade Warriors and another from the old pewter warrior kit.
I love em.
TheAuldGrump wrote: I... may be unique in this regard, but my favorite version of the Tyranid Warrior was the one in Space Crusade.
You aren't alone... but the two of us are.
I didn't mind the concept of them - they looked far more like 'eaders' than the current Warriors, but the plastic sculpts were atrocious (to be fair, I know they dated back to Advanced Space Crusade). The metals were nice though.
But I prefer the new Warriors, which are some of my favorite sculpts ever.
They were pretty fun. I managed to pick up a bunch of them still in the blisters from Chaos Orc (.com... I guess?) to go with the ones I originally bought when I was a kid.
I still remember buying the "Tyranid Army" box back in 2nd Ed, only they didn't have the box, so they just gave me everything that was in the box. The guy grabbing the blisters grabbed a bunch of Hormagaunt blisters, but only one of them was Hormagaunts. The rest were all Tyranid Warriors. Didn't even realise until I got home and found way more than I originally thought I had.
]
This is very nice as it should allow at least one brood of Raveners/Shrikes/Warriors to benefit from Eternal Warrior. If it does stack with Dominion (and something tells me Dominion will work with it) then running multiples of those units should certainly be viable (except for that one turn you fail your psychic test).
