l0k1 wrote: I looked at the scan of the hormagaunt entry, and does it look like they're init 5 and move through cover?
Yes...and they already have both in the current codex. No changes there.
I'm starting to get a little worried. Obviously, we don't know how the book will function without rules for synapse or biomorphs. But I'm not liking the looks of our troops. Basically nothing is getting cheaper AND nothing is getting a stat boost. The past five 6th edition codices had their troops get new rules, lowered points, boosted stats, or a combination of those. And the Tyranid troops were already kind of weak...No doom and gloom yet, but I'm extremely disappointed with what we've seen so far (at least when it comes to troops).
Does anyone know anything about the author, Troke?
tetrisphreak wrote: I'm still wracking my brain trying to figure out what scything talons, toxin sacs, and adrenal glands will do in the new book.
My guesses (nothing new here I'm afraid):
Scything Talons: +1 attack per pair
Toxin Sacs: Confer Poison (4+) to both close combat and shooting attacks made by the model
Adrenal Glands: Confer Fleet and Furious Charge. If the model already has the Fleet special rule, (X undetermined bonus). Hope it's run + charge in the same turn!
Maybe something along the lines of pseudo-Hammer of Wrath, with the unit's first attack resolving at I10?
l0k1 wrote: I looked at the scan of the hormagaunt entry, and does it look like they're init 5 and move through cover?
Yes...and they already have both in the current codex. No changes there.
I'm starting to get a little worried. Obviously, we don't know how the book will function without rules for synapse or biomorphs. But I'm not liking the looks of our troops. Basically nothing is getting cheaper AND nothing is getting a stat boost. The past five 6th edition codices had their troops get new rules, lowered points, boosted stats, or a combination of those. And the Tyranid troops were already kind of weak...No doom and gloom yet, but I'm extremely disappointed with what we've seen so far (at least when it comes to troops).
Does anyone know anything about the author, Troke?
I think it all comes down to how they rewrite the army's special rules. Tau Firecaste Warriors look pretty weak on paper until you see the rules for Supporting Fire.
If synapse again provides some form of EW, and they rewrite the Hormagaunt leap and various biomorphs, I could see tyranids working.
tetrisphreak wrote: I'm still wracking my brain trying to figure out what scything talons, toxin sacs, and adrenal glands will do in the new book.
My guesses (nothing new here I'm afraid):
Scything Talons: +1 attack per pair
Toxin Sacs: Confer Poison (4+) to both close combat and shooting attacks made by the model
Adrenal Glands: Confer Fleet and Furious Charge. If the model already has the Fleet special rule, (X undetermined bonus). Hope it's run + charge in the same turn!
If scything talons changed from reroll 1's to hit in melee, and all misses when you have 2 pairs to +1 attack....well....trygons base stats would have to be tweaked, and it would likely result in a massive nerf for them (either going to base 4 attack with 2 sets, getting them back to 6 attacks, but losing the rerolls, or going up to 8 attacks with no rerolls, which is a lateral move). It might also make some "interesting" creature possibilities with 6 attack tyrants and 4 attack tyrant guard. At the very least it would explain the points increase on genestealers.
Toxin-sacs won't change. They can't affect ranged units, it would be extremely over powered. Imagine dev gaunts with toxins sacs provided by a tervigon, they'd be the best shooting unit in the game point for point. (8 each, 3 S4 attack that always wound on a 4+).
Adrenal has to be changing. I think you've got the main measure of it as well.
I agree an 8 attack Trygon would be a lateral move, but I'd still field one. I like rolling dice!
You're assuming that Devourers stay S4 with 3 shots. Either number or both could be changed.
l0k1 wrote: I looked at the scan of the hormagaunt entry, and does it look like they're init 5 and move through cover?
Yes...and they already have both in the current codex. No changes there.
I'm starting to get a little worried. Obviously, we don't know how the book will function without rules for synapse or biomorphs. But I'm not liking the looks of our troops. Basically nothing is getting cheaper AND nothing is getting a stat boost. The past five 6th edition codices had their troops get new rules, lowered points, boosted stats, or a combination of those. And the Tyranid troops were already kind of weak...No doom and gloom yet, but I'm extremely disappointed with what we've seen so far (at least when it comes to troops).
Does anyone know anything about the author, Troke?
As I posted earlier in the thread, there's no different between Tyranids now and the early Eldar leaks we got in the summer. Their two main troop units actually went up in cost (Dire Avengers and Guardians), but it wasn't obvious why until we saw the rules for Battle Focus and Shuriken weapons.
We know the two main Tyranid Troops have actually dropped by a point, making them easier to take in large swarms. Upgrade costs have stayed the same or gone up, however, meaning they probably do more now. It may be possible to give out those upgrades for 'free' via a Tervigon again. We also don't know weapon stats.
Here's a plausible scenario: Toxin Sacs are returned to giving Poison to ranged attacks as well as melee, Adrenal Glands now give +1 to Attacks and most Tyranid weapons are returned to the Assault X rule where they can fire once per Attack characteristic. How good would Termagants be if you could give out upgrades from a Tervigon and fire 2 poison shots per model for 4pts apiece?
I'm not worried. Most 6E codexes have had solid internal balance with only a few 'turkey' units, and that ratio has been improving over time. We might find that a unit or two may be shelved for a few years, but I expect the vast majority of the codex to be viable in a month.
Oh, and the author is credited as the GW Design Team. The Troke thing was apparently a bad rumour.
Ecto4 wrote: I thought i was alone in my love of space crusade warriors : ).
I never could feel the same about them since this...
So it seems devourers with BLW are probably down to strength 5. Any suggestions on the regular version? Or should we all be magnetising deathspitter arms?
New nidslook good all I hope that new codex aint Ward. Otherwise it is suspected that tyranids starts talk and are trying to make peace with other races and changes their history that they are exiles from their own galaxy.
Backto models prime is beast perhaps thinking to start tyranids army.
Just noticed this on the GW website, they have taken down Hive guard and Tyrant guard, I went to see how much they are and I am unable to find them anywhere on the tyranid pages so if you wanted to get any straight from them, you're unfortunately out of luck!
tomball0706 wrote: Just noticed this on the GW website, they have taken down Hive guard and Tyrant guard, I went to see how much they are and I am unable to find them anywhere on the tyranid pages so if you wanted to get any straight from them, you're unfortunately out of luck!
Still available here in Canada. Guess the UK warehouses are empty for them. Not so in North America it seems.
-"Uber-Synapse": An HQ only biomorph that has a reduced radius for synapse, but grants Eternal Warrior to bugs within it.
"Uber Carapace" Armor Save 2+, Eternal Warrior on non flying creature.
-"Uber-Boneswords": Hive Tyranids/ Tyranid Primes only: AP:2 and heals the user a lost wound for each wound inflicted on a 5+ For Primes and Tyrants. Regular boneswords are AP3 by the way.
-"Bio-flamer": Hive Tyrants/Tervigonso nly, Template, AP:3
-"Spore Barrage": Poison 3+, Large blast, Ordinance, Remains in play, Range:Unlimited, One-use only
-"Uber-Synapse": An HQ only biomorph that has a reduced radius for synapse, but grants Eternal Warrior to bugs within it.
"Uber Carapace" Armor Save 2+, Eternal Warrior on non flying creature.
-"Uber-Boneswords": Hive Tyranids/ Tyranid Primes only: AP:2 and heals the user a lost wound for each wound inflicted on a 5+ For Primes and Tyrants. Regular boneswords are AP3 by the way.
-"Bio-flamer": Hive Tyrants/Tervigonso nly, Template, AP:3
-"Spore Barrage": Poison 3+, Large blast, Ordinance, Remains in play, Range:Unlimited, One-use only
-"Uber-Synapse": An HQ only biomorph that has a reduced radius for synapse, but grants Eternal Warrior to bugs within it.
"Uber Carapace" Armor Save 2+, Eternal Warrior on non flying creature.
-"Uber-Boneswords": Hive Tyranids/ Tyranid Primes only: AP:2 and heals the user a lost wound for each wound inflicted on a 5+ For Primes and Tyrants. Regular boneswords are AP3 by the way.
-"Bio-flamer": Hive Tyrants/Tervigonso nly, Template, AP:3
-"Spore Barrage": Poison 3+, Large blast, Ordinance, Remains in play, Range:Unlimited, One-use only
I don't really get these to be honest.
The Synapse one is really only good for primes surrounded by T4 W3 models and it has to be surrounded by them due to the range so lets say 1 unit.
Carapace I guess is good for more 2+ monsters but EW is only really good if facing Force or ID weapons which arnt amazingly abundant. (depending on price maybe prime could have some fun with it)
The flamer better be cheapish because that sounds pretty meh for a 1 per army.
Spore barrage sounds pretty meh unless the AP is decent.
Nothing in that really screams "totally awesome I want that now". Guess I will have to wait till the book comes out to judge fully
The synapse one sounds awesome on a support tyrant or tervigon If it's 6", you can still squeeze in 2-3 6 man squads of warriors and ram the whole mess straight into the heart of your opponent.
Maelstrom808 wrote: The synapse one sounds awesome on a support tyrant or tervigon If it's 6", you can still squeeze in 2-3 6 man squads of warriors and ram the whole mess straight into the heart of your opponent.
Or give it to a Flyrant and have it go speeding up the board surrounded by ravenors!
tomball0706 wrote: Just noticed this on the GW website, they have taken down Hive guard and Tyrant guard, I went to see how much they are and I am unable to find them anywhere on the tyranid pages so if you wanted to get any straight from them, you're unfortunately out of luck!
Frozen Ocean wrote: I bought a Tyrant Guard today. I explained to the guy in GW (normally I don't buy directly from them, but Tyrant Guard are out of my normal retailers and I was in GW anyway) that I wanted one of the 5th models before they became unavailable, and he told me quite nonchalantly that the new models look great.
It's not worth much, but it seems that GW employees are allowed to say such things, at this point.
-"Uber-Synapse": An HQ only biomorph that has a reduced radius for synapse, but grants Eternal Warrior to bugs within it.
"Uber Carapace" Armor Save 2+, Eternal Warrior on non flying creature.
-"Uber-Boneswords": Hive Tyranids/ Tyranid Primes only: AP:2 and heals the user a lost wound for each wound inflicted on a 5+ For Primes and Tyrants. Regular boneswords are AP3 by the way.
-"Bio-flamer": Hive Tyrants/Tervigonso nly, Template, AP:3
-"Spore Barrage": Poison 3+, Large blast, Ordinance, Remains in play, Range:Unlimited, One-use only
I don't really get these to be honest.
The Synapse one is really only good for primes surrounded by T4 W3 models and it has to be surrounded by them due to the range so lets say 1 unit.
Carapace I guess is good for more 2+ monsters but EW is only really good if facing Force or ID weapons which arnt amazingly abundant. (depending on price maybe prime could have some fun with it)
The flamer better be cheapish because that sounds pretty meh for a 1 per army.
Spore barrage sounds pretty meh unless the AP is decent.
Nothing in that really screams "totally awesome I want that now". Guess I will have to wait till the book comes out to judge fully
The Synapse one screams that at me, and makes Warriors + Prime very usable now.
Uber Carapace also does a lot towards making Prime more badass
Acid Flamer sounds like an autoinclude for me most the time and is probably the least situational one that I would take the most
Spore Barrage, well the information we have is pretty minimal for that one so far, it could really go either way. I'm going to guess that it will be never taken though.To be seen tho
Absolutionis wrote: These one-of biomorphs are the same rumors as a week ago. BOLS is just reposting them.
Yeah, BOLS usually gets things a few days late when it doesn't originate from them.
On topic though, the Spore Barrage sounds like something my Tyrant would be interested in. Maybe run a Prime as a secondary HQ with a retinure of warriors(If all these rumors turn out to be true).
Since the Spore barrage template stays in play it sounds like a decent way to prevent objectives at the far end of the board being camped on by cheap troops
They'll either have to stick something with a decent save or plenty of wounds to camp
(yes they could stay near the objective but in doing so they'll probably be unable to use those ADL or cover they set up on it)
That template is an ADL ellininator... set it on the gun and it effectivly makes the gun more dangerous to them than you or blocks possible 1st/2nd turn assaults unless they want to risk it. Can also keep them off objectives if you want. Can make them move some heavy weapons to make them snapshots for a turn... I see many uses for it...
That template is gonna be awesome assuming it lands where you want it opens up even more possibilities if your units are immune to it
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry didn't see your post on this page... I don't think it will... it just wouldn't make sense for it to be dangerous terrain after because It's not terrain its a cloud of spores
If those new rules are real its going to be interesting. Very curious about the wording on the "uber" synapse rule. Will the rule be measured from the model only? Or extended to the synapse creatures in any unit it joins? Would the decreased synapse range affect he entire unit? Or only the model? The effectiveness will depend heavily on the wording. If the ability is extended to the unit and the range measured as such, We could see whole swarms advancing centered around a linchpin band of warriors. Heres hoping.
Thats probably the case, As most tyranid abilities tend to operate that way. Im more curious as the the footprint the ability will cover. If a prime can extend it to a unit of 9 warriors the footprint it can cover extends greatly and makes it much more effective,
Backlash wrote: Thats probably the case, As most tyranid abilities tend to operate that way. Im more curious as the the footprint the ability will cover. If a prime can extend it to a unit of 9 warriors the footprint it can cover extends greatly and makes it much more effective,
I seriously doubt it will work that way. Can we think of anything in the game that works like that?
99% confident that it will be measured from the model with the upgrade, and not any unit he joins.
Tyran wrote: Any Tyranid bubble ability works like that.
Say when a Tyranid Prime joins a unit of Hormagaunts you measure synapse from the unit? Now that I think about it, I never really had that situation come up, but I guess it works that way. Would be kinda crazy with an Eternal Warrior aura like that.
Ah yes, Tyranids. The most adaptive species in the known universe. Given enough time Tyranids could conquer just about anything as the Hive Mind voraciously mutates and evolves its creatures to overcome any obstacle.
But only one of them per army can have a 2+ save because... uhh... well just because.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Ah yes, Tyranids. The most adaptive species in the known universe. Given enough time Tyranids could conquer just about anything as the Hive Mind voraciously mutates and evolves its creatures to overcome any obstacle.
But only one of them per army can have a 2+ save because... uhh... well just because.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Ah yes, Tyranids. The most adaptive species in the known universe. Given enough time Tyranids could conquer just about anything as the Hive Mind voraciously mutates and evolves its creatures to overcome any obstacle.
But only one of them per army can have a 2+ save because... uhh... well just because.
And this is where finally the community made codices started.
Shingen wrote: EW aura sounds great to me as I run a 9 man rav and a 9 man shrike unit usually which would help me immensely assuming whatever has it can keep up!
According to popular belief, Shrikes have been dropped from this version of the Codex. Are they in a FW book and therefore still available to use?
Harriticus wrote: Hopefully the fluff doesn't try humanize the Nids like they did with Newcrons
Agreed. But I feel they edged towards that with the Swarmlord. Previously Hive Tyrants were the embodiment of the Hivemind yadayada but for some reason we had to have one who embodied it even more and IMO came quite close to being the hero figure for the Nids.
Harriticus wrote: Hopefully the fluff doesn't try humanize the Nids like they did with Newcrons
Agreed. But I feel they edged towards that with the Swarmlord. Previously Hive Tyrants were the embodiment of the Hivemind yadayada but for some reason we had to have one who embodied it even more and IMO came quite close to being the hero figure for the Nids.
The Borg took Picard hostage because they wanted a human face to ease the assimilation process. It stands to reason the hive mind understands the necessary steps of creating super characters to challenge and break the will of an army.
Tyran wrote: Any Tyranid bubble ability works like that.
Say when a Tyranid Prime joins a unit of Hormagaunts you measure synapse from the unit? Now that I think about it, I never really had that situation come up, but I guess it works that way. Would be kinda crazy with an Eternal Warrior aura like that.
No, I mean that you only need a model in range of synapse and the entire unit is in synapse, or only one model in range of a Tervigon and all the unit has the buffs, etc.
Shingen wrote: EW aura sounds great to me as I run a 9 man rav and a 9 man shrike unit usually which would help me immensely assuming whatever has it can keep up!
According to popular belief, Shrikes have been dropped from this version of the Codex. Are they in a FW book and therefore still available to use?
Ap3 assault 4, for around 10 points a go? Seriously? Why not make hormagaunts t5 with 5 attacks each and 3 wounds? Sorry that's a bit sarcastic of me but really?
Stormbreed wrote: I'd be fine with making devourer's ST3 AP3 Assault 4.
I'm very interested in the Swarmlord stat line.
I'd be fine with AP3 too! I'm not very interested in the Swarmlord's statline(I imagine it will stay largely the same), but his special rules and which psychic powers he had access to.
I know what I want to see for warriors. 35 points for rending and devourers and same stats on everything except bs5. It would be a huge dakka improvement causing nid players heads to explode because warriors would be an odd but good hybrid unit that can still be id by s8. There would be massive strife as people couldn't agree if they were awesome or terrible. It wouldbe trolltastic.
I doubt we'll get BS4. GW has a bee in their bonnet in regards to Tyranids and shooting, the idea being that "Tyranids don't shoot", so even the ones that do shoot can't really shoot. The same mentality unfortunately applies to Orks.
I'm not asking for an army of lethal snipers, but I do wish that the Tyranid ranged units were as good at shooting as the HTH units are at tearing things to pieces.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I doubt we'll get BS4. GTW has a bee in their bonnet in regards to Tyranids and shooting, the idea being that "Tyranids don't shoot", so even the ones that do shoot can't really shoot. The same mentality unfortunately applies to Orks.
I'm not asking for an army of lethal snipers, but I do wish that the Tyranid ranges units were as good at shooting as the HTH units are at tearing things to pieces.
At the very least they could give us a biomorph that grants +1 BS like in the 4e dex...
H.B.M.C. wrote: I doubt we'll get BS4. GTW has a bee in their bonnet in regards to Tyranids and shooting, the idea being that "Tyranids don't shoot", so even the ones that do shoot can't really shoot. The same mentality unfortunately applies to Orks.
I'm not asking for an army of lethal snipers, but I do wish that the Tyranid ranges units were as good at shooting as the HTH units are at tearing things to pieces.
At the very least they could give us a biomorph that grants +1 BS like in the 4e dex...
H.B.M.C. wrote: I doubt we'll get BS4. GW has a bee in their bonnet in regards to Tyranids and shooting, the idea being that "Tyranids don't shoot", so even the ones that do shoot can't really shoot. The same mentality unfortunately applies to Orks.
I'm not asking for an army of lethal snipers, but I do wish that the Tyranid ranged units were as good at shooting as the HTH units are at tearing things to pieces.
In the old 2nd edition Epic, Tyranid shooting was actually pretty deadly, though either short ranged or inaccurate. The bio-cannons on Exocrines and I think the Bio-Titans had a +1 damage bonus on damage tables due to a special corrosive fungal payload. So there is precedent for Tyranid shooting being deadly. Rather the differentiation can be Tyranid shooting being inaccurate or short range but hurts really badly when it does hit. Or if one goes by spike rifles and spinefists, Tyranids sometimes trade power for range or ease of hitting/number of shots respectively. So Tyranids may be able to match up on one aspect of shooting at the cost of sacrificing the other.
the shrouded lord wrote: So, do we know wether the parasite of mortrex is still there? I just finished painting mine.
Nothing more than the assertion that biomorph upgrades will cater to the special characters. Whether or not this means you can take, say, a Tyranid Prime with Wings, Implant Attack, Rending Claws, and the one-per-army "Implant Parasite" biomorph, that grants it all the special rules of the Parasite of Mortrex, remains to be seen. I can definitely see the Doom making a comeback in some form, although "Super-Zoanthrope with Absorb Life, Cataclysm and Spirit Leech" will probably be overall less effective than the Doom used to be.
H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm not asking for an army of lethal snipers, but I do wish that the Tyranid ranged units were as good at shooting as the HTH units are at tearing things to pieces.
BS4 is the benchmark for elite troops.
So what you want is an army that does everything well? Horde, close combat, and shooting?
Seems legit.
I mean, I love Tyranids. Played all the way back to 2nd Edition. But that's a bit ridiculous to be upset about. 3rd Edition turned Tyranids into a horde army with a close combat bend. The only time Tyranids were ever shooty was 2nd Edition, and the shooty units were much more expensive.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:At the very least they could give us a biomorph that grants +1 BS like in the 4e dex...
H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm not asking for an army of lethal snipers, but I do wish that the Tyranid ranged units were as good at shooting as the HTH units are at tearing things to pieces.
BS4 is the benchmark for elite troops.
So what you want is an army that does everything well? Horde, close combat, and shooting?
Seems legit.
I mean, I love Tyranids. Played all the way back to 2nd Edition. But that's a bit ridiculous to be upset about. 3rd Edition turned Tyranids into a horde army with a close combat bend. The only time Tyranids were ever shooty was 2nd Edition, and the shooty units were much more expensive.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:At the very least they could give us a biomorph that grants +1 BS like in the 4e dex...
That only gave warriors BS3 anyway.
No, what he's asking for are specialized units, which is what Tyranids are supposed to have. I've played nids as long as you have it seems, and we had some hallmark shooting units that were absolutely terrifying: Original Zoanthropes, the OLD Venom cannon whose current predecessor is but a pale imitation, the previous version of Deathspitters which were basically unchanged until Cruddace, Bio plasma which is just getting back to where it was.
The thing was, you got those at the cost of a much less potent melee force. And we still had our hallmark weaknesses; gaunt armor continued to be mocked by tissues, warriors you paid out the nose for (but didn't explode like squeezed facial blemishes), lose your synapse and watch your army tell you that you could go order a pizza because it'd play itself for the rest of the game...
H.B.M.C is not asking for unreasonable options, because it's not unreasonable to ask that our shooting units... you know... shoot well? Be it more accurate, or exceedingly deadly. I'd take either option, rather than having the creature that are twice as tall as a space marine somehow have the same toughness and die far easier due to the way armor works.
Don't get me wrong, I think Tyranids should go back to being shooty.
But it's going to have to come at a cost. Plenty of armies survive on BS3. Tyranids aren't going to get BS4 when nearly everything in the Tau codex is BS3.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: But it's going to have to come at a cost. Plenty of armies survive on BS3. Tyranids aren't going to get BS4 when nearly everything in the Tau codex is BS3.
That's the Tau's niche. They have mediocre-training and mediocre-tech. They contrast with IG with their mediocre-training and low-tech and Orks with their low-training and-low tech.
Tau are only given the reputation of the "shooty army" because their close combat is lacking and their fluff has the tendency to give decent guns to basic grunts.
If IG Vets and Scouts are any indication, upping WS/BS comes from experience and not simply being genetically better. Eldar, SM, and Necrons all have experience and WS/BS 4 because they're really old.
However, some Tyranid creatures are created to to do nothing but shoot with the weapon that is fused to their bodies/limbs. The entire theme of the army defies normal conventions with their tech being awkward to compare with. Plus, the creatures are explicitly designed to fight and only fight with the weapon-masses fused to their bodies upon birth/creation.
The question is whether being born with the purpose to fight is justification enough to skip years of experience. There is no comparison with Tau and their mediocre-tech toys in the hands of short-lived grunts.
So what you want is an army that does everything well? Horde, close combat, and shooting?
Seems legit.
That's not what I said at all.
And why shouldn't the Tyranid units specifically designed to shoot (Hive Guard, Tyrannofex and leader beasts like Tyrants) be "elite troops" when it comes to shooting? Tyranids specialise. Things that only shoot should be really good at only shooting. It's daft to say "'Nids are a HTH army!" and make their dedicated shooting units bad/mediocre shooters.
Stat ratings should be based on how the unit is meant to function on the tabletop within the army...not based on background.
As to Nids in 2nd Editon...I recall them being heavily Horde CC but with much Tougher MCs that we get today. Shooting was important for vehicle suppression but it was waves of Hormies and 'stealers that killed stuff.
I had a slim hope that this codex might continue the move armies seem to have taken back towards the flavour of 2nd but what I have heard in this thread makes me less than hopeful.
This kind of 'nids are a horde so shouldn't be good at anything' philosophy is partly why we have the awful codex we have now. E.g. Hormies being dropped to WS4.
Tau getting BS3 doesn't count because they have means to change this through their in/famous Markerlights.
That said, there are several ways for a shooting force to remain effective in spite of low Ballistic Skill. Either a small number of shots can hit very hard (Rupture Cannon at Strength 10) or a huge number of shots can be fired (Fleshborer Hive, Assault 20; lasguns, shootas, etc). While Zoanthropes have very strong shooting in the form of Warp Lance, it is still a psychic power and therefore they need BS4 in order to (slightly) balance it against all the loopholes and potential failures that that entails (Perils and Deny the Witch on top of BS3 shooting would suck, not to mention certain powers that can make psychic casting troublesome). Hive Guard have a low number of medium-strength shots, and do not come in large groups (like Necrons, Eldar, and Space Marines).
Warriors are much more expensive than Space Marines, and get neither weight of fire nor particularly strong shooting, but at still BS3 unless joined by a Prime (which is BS4, and passes this on to Warriors in its unit).
Also, it has nothing to do with age. It's a balancing thing. Necrons, Eldar, Veteran Guardsmen and Space Marines have better BS because they come in far smaller units than things like Ork Boyz, and fire far fewer (but more powerful) shots. It if were down to experience, any given Tyranid organism has a limitless supply readily available to them through the Hive Mind, so every Termagant should theoretically be BS10.
EDIT: I'd also like to point out that the background is specifically designed to fit the game. Otherwise we could have things like "Ork Boyz are among the greatest marksmen in the galaxy. Commonly fielded in units of one, these greenskins are known to perform such feats as firing a single slug with such precise accuracy that it slips through a tiny momentary breach in a Void Shield, through the weakest point in a Titan's eye, and into the Princeps, felling the Titan immediately." and then the game have them as they are. Instead, we have fluff that goes roughly "Space Marines are very good at things. That is why they are better at shooting than Guardsmen are. Also, Space Marines get access to better gear, which is why they have 3+ saves and bolters instead of leather and lasguns". The fluff could just as easily begin to state "Carnifexes come in broods of 400, and have replaced all smaller Tyranid organisms. Their ragged carapaces are stronger than even Tactical Dreadnought Armour, and the creatures are known for taking only small injuries from even the formidable weaponry of Titans", and then have Carnifexes cost 1 point each, have all stats at 10, 2+ rerollable armour and a 3++ invuln, and all carry Heat Lances - except this would break the game completely. Therefore, Tyranids are described as having swarms of weaker organisms (GEQ, usually 5pts each) alongside a relatively small number of larger organisms (high-cost MCs). The restrictions that stop all Space Marines from having Artificer Armour and lascannons are placed in the fluff and lead to these crunch decisions.
I just said that's what it's for, not that they're doing a good job of it. But the game isn't really as broken as all that.
Lascannons are stronger than lasguns. They are more costly and fire fewer shots. That is the sort of balance I am talking about, not about the integrity of the game's balance overall.
EDIT: While I don't suggest that 40k is "balanced", what I meant was that it isn't as horribly broken as people make out by implying that everything is 200pt Guardsmen with lasguns and 1ppm Grey Knight Terminators with man-portable Volcano Cannons.
Frozen Ocean wrote: ... I meant was that it isn't as horribly broken as people make out by implying that everything is 200pt Guardsmen with lasguns and 1ppm Grey Knight Terminators with man-portable Volcano Cannons.
Can't say I've ever heard anyone say that. Reductio ad absurdum doesn't really apply here either, if that's what you were aiming for.
You're right when you say things like Orks not getting a higher BS to balance their weight of fire, but I'm more talking specialist units. Tank Bustaz, Lootas, even just Warbosses in general, along with Warriors, Hive Guard, Tyranits, Tyrannofexes etc. These are the things that should get a BS bump to show that shooting is what they do. I'm not saying make Lootas BS4, but I am saying make them at least as good a shoots as Guardsmen.
Frozen Ocean wrote: ...and then have Carnifexes cost 1 point each, have all stats at 10, 2+ rerollable armour and a 3++ invuln, and all carry Heat Lances - except this would break the game completely.
Which is what GW's into now, so we can expect to see invincifexes in the new book?
Frozen Ocean wrote: ... I meant was that it isn't as horribly broken as people make out by implying that everything is 200pt Guardsmen with lasguns and 1ppm Grey Knight Terminators with man-portable Volcano Cannons.
Can't say I've ever heard anyone say that. Reductio ad absurdum doesn't really apply here either, if that's what you were aiming for.
You're right when you say things like Orks not getting a higher BS to balance their weight of fire, but I'm more talking specialist units. Tank Bustaz, Lootas, even just Warbosses in general, along with Warriors, Hive Guard, Tyranits, Tyrannofexes etc. These are the things that should get a BS bump to show that shooting is what they do. I'm not saying make Lootas BS4, but I am saying make them at least as good a shoots as Guardsmen.
I'm agreeing with you! And it applies just fine, if you knew I was refuting the idea that there is no balance.
As for BS, I was again agreeing with you. Lootas (as far as I know) are fairly decent; they make up for their lack of hits with S7 and firing off a lot of shots. They're Orks, so this is fine. As for everything else, I don't think it matters as long as the result is effective (I have no experience with Tank Bustas or Warbosses, but if they can shoot effectively it doesn't matter). Hive Guard are BS4, but as I said, their shots are mid-strength and low in number. Bizarrely, Venomthropes are also BS4. Zoanthropes need to have their BS4; their high-strength shooting requires them to pass a psychic test, for the opponent to fail Deny the Witch, and for the shot to actually hit in the first place. Hive Tyrants should really be BS4 at the least. Once again it is Warriors who are caught; they can't make up for their BS3 by weight of fire, and they can't make up for it with quality shooting, either. On a platform with the aforementioned (many, many times in this thread) weaknesses, shooting is just another thing that Warriors suck at, which is really weird.
I think it's less "better than Guardsmen" and more "this elite shooting unit in my army has the same BS as the basic horde guys". I think Orks are a bit of an exception, seeing as how they value big, loud, inaccurate weaponry over skill (which is the idea of Lootas, anyway). For everyone else (Tyranids included), it is a bit strange.
Frozen Ocean wrote: ... I meant was that it isn't as horribly broken as people make out by implying that everything is 200pt Guardsmen with lasguns and 1ppm Grey Knight Terminators with man-portable Volcano Cannons.
Can't say I've ever heard anyone say that. Reductio ad absurdum doesn't really apply here either, if that's what you were aiming for.
You're right when you say things like Orks not getting a higher BS to balance their weight of fire, but I'm more talking specialist units. Tank Bustaz, Lootas, even just Warbosses in general, along with Warriors, Hive Guard, Tyranits, Tyrannofexes etc. These are the things that should get a BS bump to show that shooting is what they do. I'm not saying make Lootas BS4, but I am saying make them at least as good a shoots as Guardsmen.
I'd have to go into the camp of stronger, not more accurate. Things like Living Ammo, showing that while individual Tyranids aren't the best shots, the shots that land are horrific to suffer. Beetles that burrow into your organts, worms that creep into your brain, crystals that burst into corrosive acid, etc. Tyranid ranged weapons are weapons you utterly do not want to be hit with. A bolter might blow your arm off and you get taken to an aid station and get an awesome bionic arm as a replacement. A fleshborer beetle will eat its way through your insides before you ever see an aid station. A devourer will fill your brain with worms.
Go back to additional effects when Tyranid weapons hit their target, rather than just making them better shots. Tyranids should get quantity of hits from quantity of shooters, not better ballistic skill. There's no reason for Tyranid shooting to suck - they've always had decent shooting, I just don't feel a BS bump is the way.
Interesting point Loki. Whilst I'm loathe to put a special rule on every unit and every weapon (and GW seems happy to do that), it would be a way of differentiating them from regular armies.
Still, things that are so obviously massive gun beasts or leaders (Exocrines, Tyrannofexes and Hive Tyrants) should be BS4. In the case of some of them shooting is all they do - it's what they were created for - and they should be good at it.
Frozen Ocean - Thanks for correcting me on the Hive Guard. I've honestly never used any because I never wanted to fork over $41 per model for a unit. I've been waiting for plastic ones since the metal ones came out! I did know Venomthropes were BS4, because that came up when the Codex first came up as a major "WTF?" moment. Methinks Cruddace didn't do the best job with that book.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Methinks Cruddace didn't do the best job with that book.
I'm shocked. Really.
I do like the "Living Weapons" idea, but I would personally take it a step further. I would love to see some kind of "hazardous environment" rules, things like the mere presence of a Tyranid force on the battlefield leads to pinning effects on any unit that does not have fully sealed helmets or rebreather equipment.
Or that just don't believe in things like spores and wotnot, in the case of Orks.
Kanluwen wrote: I would love to see some kind of "hazardous environment" rules, things like the mere presence of a Tyranid force on the battlefield leads to pinning effects on any unit that does not have fully sealed helmets or rebreather equipment.
Or that just don't believe in things like spores and wotnot, in the case of Orks.
So it affects maybe a quarter of the armies in the game with any signifigance? I see that as just unsatisfactory from all sides. The Tyranid player is unsatisfied because his special rule is ignored by most of the armies out there (see Fear). The player who is affected is unsatisfied because he feels like he is unfairly singled out when most armies can safely ignore the rule. The player who is unaffected finds it just a boring rule because it has zero impact on his army (and has to listen to certain Nid player whine about it).
What seems fluffy and cinematic often does not translate into solid gameplay.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: But it's going to have to come at a cost. Plenty of armies survive on BS3. Tyranids aren't going to get BS4 when nearly everything in the Tau codex is BS3.
That's the Tau's niche. They have mediocre-training and mediocre-tech. They contrast with IG with their mediocre-training and low-tech and Orks with their low-training and-low tech.
Tau are only given the reputation of the "shooty army" because their close combat is lacking and their fluff has the tendency to give decent guns to basic grunts.
If IG Vets and Scouts are any indication, upping WS/BS comes from experience and not simply being genetically better. Eldar, SM, and Necrons all have experience and WS/BS 4 because they're really old.
However, some Tyranid creatures are created to to do nothing but shoot with the weapon that is fused to their bodies/limbs. The entire theme of the army defies normal conventions with their tech being awkward to compare with. Plus, the creatures are explicitly designed to fight and only fight with the weapon-masses fused to their bodies upon birth/creation.
The question is whether being born with the purpose to fight is justification enough to skip years of experience. There is no comparison with Tau and their mediocre-tech toys in the hands of short-lived grunts.
They don't have BS4 for being really old: they are also superior to the other races in terms of martial skill and training. Space Marines are genetically superior to all races, Eldar have the patience and grace to learn just about anything, and Necrons are BS4 the moment they were made - they aren't a decaying flora and thus don't change. One only has to look at sports to know that being old doesn't make one better.
Orks aren't bad at shooting despite being BS2. They can throw so many bullets in the air and out-shoot a lot of armies.
Tau are BS3 but amazing at shooting because they have cool guns and buffs.
IG are mostly BS3 but are amazing at shooting due to volume of fire with devastating weapons.
Tyranids designed for shooting aren't really good at shooting, and wouldn't be as such in the classical sense. They are designed to launch another organism, or some biochemical at the enemy through a series of muscle spasms. I think Tyranids should have weapons with lasting and corrosive effects, but they are sloppy compared to those of the more logical and tactically shrewd races. A blob of something that travels slow through the air, splatters everywhere and melts anything it touches, but at the cost of not being very accurate, for example.
There are ways GW can give them effective ranged abilities without just having a biomorph that grants +1 BS. Why not just up the cost of the unit that can buy it and give it to them anyway? It's likely GW will better define the roles of each unit in this codex (as they have throughout 6th), so it's a biomorph that would only be available to the "shooty" bugs. Most everyone would buy it because BS4 is great. The +1-stat biomorphs are a bit of a cop out when we could be getting something more unique and interesting.
I'd really like to see their shooting capability focused on secondary abilities - things that reduce the effectiveness of enemy shooting, facilitate the assault nids actually getting into combat, allowing them to be more effective once they are there - in addition to whatever damage they may cause.
Just increasing BS, S, AP or number of shots is boring and lazy balance imo.
Nids to me should always be a "CC first" army. They are the "Great Devourer" and as such should be eating people's faces off, not shooting them full of nasty worms.
brassangel wrote: Tyranids designed for shooting aren't really good at shooting, and wouldn't be as such in the classical sense.
Why? That doesn't make any sense. The Hive Mind devises numerous ways to destroy the enemy at range yet just doesn't bother to design an effective method of delivery?
Maelstrom808 wrote: I'd really like to see their shooting capability focused on secondary abilities - things that reduce the effectiveness of enemy shooting, facilitate the assault nids actually getting into combat, allowing them to be more effective once they are there - in addition to whatever damage they may cause.
Just increasing BS, S, AP or number of shots is boring and lazy balance imo.
Nids to me should always be a "CC first" army. They are the "Great Devourer" and as such should be eating people's faces off, not shooting them full of nasty worms.
The problem is 6e has not proven friendly to CC armies. While I hope this new codex will allow viable cc-based Nid armies, be prepared for a ****storm of Tau and Eldar players crying foul about it since both their armies crumble in CC (in the Eldar's case, most of the current competive units suck at CC)
the shrouded lord wrote: So, do we know wether the parasite of mortrex is still there? I just finished painting mine.
Nothing more than the assertion that biomorph upgrades will cater to the special characters. Whether or not this means you can take, say, a Tyranid Prime with Wings, Implant Attack, Rending Claws, and the one-per-army "Implant Parasite" biomorph, that grants it all the special rules of the Parasite of Mortrex, remains to be seen. I can definitely see the Doom making a comeback in some form, although "Super-Zoanthrope with Absorb Life, Cataclysm and Spirit Leech" will probably be overall less effective than the Doom used to be.
Thanks. A had heard that the SCs would be upgrAdes.
Ps: what do we know about carnifexes?
I heard theyre gonna be heaps cheaper.
One more thing: trygons.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: But it's going to have to come at a cost. Plenty of armies survive on BS3. Tyranids aren't going to get BS4 when nearly everything in the Tau codex is BS3.
That's the Tau's niche. They have mediocre-training and mediocre-tech. They contrast with IG with their mediocre-training and low-tech and Orks with their low-training and-low tech.
Tau are only given the reputation of the "shooty army" because their close combat is lacking and their fluff has the tendency to give decent guns to basic grunts.
If IG Vets and Scouts are any indication, upping WS/BS comes from experience and not simply being genetically better. Eldar, SM, and Necrons all have experience and WS/BS 4 because they're really old.
However, some Tyranid creatures are created to to do nothing but shoot with the weapon that is fused to their bodies/limbs. The entire theme of the army defies normal conventions with their tech being awkward to compare with. Plus, the creatures are explicitly designed to fight and only fight with the weapon-masses fused to their bodies upon birth/creation.
The question is whether being born with the purpose to fight is justification enough to skip years of experience. There is no comparison with Tau and their mediocre-tech toys in the hands of short-lived grunts.
If this were the case, I'd expect Tyranids to have mediocre combat skills (BS 3/WS 3 - based on what they're good at BS 2/WS 2 for their non-preferred mode) from sheer ferocity, but get a bonus when they link into the hivemind and its "experience". It would make for a great reason to keep your Tyranids in synapse range if they get a +1 bonus to their preferred combat skill.
I'm fine with most Nids having BS3. The only ones I feel need BS4 (if not standard then at least a optional biomorph to get it) are Hive Tyrants, Warriors, Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, and Tyrannofex.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: But it's going to have to come at a cost. Plenty of armies survive on BS3. Tyranids aren't going to get BS4 when nearly everything in the Tau codex is BS3.
That's the Tau's niche. They have mediocre-training and mediocre-tech. They contrast with IG with their mediocre-training and low-tech and Orks with their low-training and-low tech.
Tau are only given the reputation of the "shooty army" because their close combat is lacking and their fluff has the tendency to give decent guns to basic grunts.
If IG Vets and Scouts are any indication, upping WS/BS comes from experience and not simply being genetically better. Eldar, SM, and Necrons all have experience and WS/BS 4 because they're really old.
However, some Tyranid creatures are created to to do nothing but shoot with the weapon that is fused to their bodies/limbs. The entire theme of the army defies normal conventions with their tech being awkward to compare with. Plus, the creatures are explicitly designed to fight and only fight with the weapon-masses fused to their bodies upon birth/creation.
The question is whether being born with the purpose to fight is justification enough to skip years of experience. There is no comparison with Tau and their mediocre-tech toys in the hands of short-lived grunts.
If this were the case, I'd expect Tyranids to have mediocre combat skills (BS 3/WS 3 - based on what they're good at BS 2/WS 2 for their non-preferred mode) from sheer ferocity, but get a bonus when they link into the hivemind and its "experience". It would make for a great reason to keep your Tyranids in synapse range if they get a +1 bonus to their preferred combat skill.
That would work, but then Tyranid players would be forced to memorize even more statlines with WS3 Hormagaunts and BS3 Termagants and BS2.5/WS2.5 Gargoyles in spite of them all being Gaunts. With pretty much everything in Elites, it'd be a nightmare of statlines. Then we have Warriors, Hive Tyrants, and Carnifexes that are a hybrid of sorts.
Plus, in the fluff, the Hive Mind doesn't give them expertise. It gives them direction. The Tyranids are born/created with the sole purpose of being a killing machine with their weapon that's attached to them. Outside of Synapse, they revert to "instinctive behavior", but they're still just as good with their weaponry in spite of being cowardly in their out-of-synapse confusion. It takes the Hive Mind to tell them where and what to do, not how to do it.
Overall, though, I agree. The stereotypical bane of Tyranids have always been "kill the synapse creatures!". As it stands, on the tabletop, synapse can mostly be ignored and the enemy focuses the most dangerous targets just as any other army. It'd be nice to have some sort of bonus that also acted as a weakness when taken away. It'd add a unique flavor to the army where rather than focusing the Carnifexes barrelling down the center, the enemy is encouraged to focus the Warriors nearby (and not only because of the Warrior's wargear).
Souleater wrote: Stat ratings should be based on how the unit is meant to function on the tabletop within the army...not based on background.
That's the most rediculous thing I've heard here in a while.
If I design an army for close combat that army should be able to have statistics and abilities that allow them to play that way on the table top. The statistics of another army should be relevant only to compare the effectiveness of the two armies against each other in play. However, I often see arguments that army X should not have stat 4 because army Y already has it.
E.g. WS and BS mean that a model is good at a particular task in game. So if an Ork, Marine or Hormagaunt are all supposed to be good in HTH they could have WS4. Of course, people will complain about horde armies having stats equal to Space Marines but as we can see in the case of Orks it was necessary to make them function as they are meant to on the TT. This fits the archetype of the army - which of course should match the background or description of the army in the background.
However, folks often can't see past the fact that the fluff explains, e.g. Space Marines as being BS4 for various reasons so Sisters of Battle should not have been BS4. We end up with endless circular fluff arguments. When, in fact, the real reason for giving Sisters BS4 was so that the army could better function in its intended niche of a short ranged fire fight army.
I see a similar problem here. Folks have suggested that some specialised Tyranid creatures be good at their specialization. Others think that this is ridiculous - completely ignoring the fact that Nid creatures can be even more specialised than CWE. Stealers have no shooting, for example.
Will IG and CWE players whine about losing in assault? Possibly. But at that point can't I point to a huge pile of my own shooting casualties to vindicate our prowess in CC?
The irksomeness of Marine players whining that Devastators lose in CC to Stealers, despite tearing them apart with shooting will continue, no doubt. Or moaning that a large monster has dared to actually kill Terminators in CC (they are fine with other Marines doing that, curiously).
I apologise for ranting but I get the feeling that Nids have become a punching bag for in a lot of players heads.
I would like to see Nids have specialist shooting available to deal with things to which CC is not a practical answer. Not to be able to out shoot gunline armies the way they could under the 4Ed Codex.
the shrouded lord wrote: So, do we know wether the parasite of mortrex is still there? I just finished painting mine.
Nothing more than the assertion that biomorph upgrades will cater to the special characters. Whether or not this means you can take, say, a Tyranid Prime with Wings, Implant Attack, Rending Claws, and the one-per-army "Implant Parasite" biomorph, that grants it all the special rules of the Parasite of Mortrex, remains to be seen. I can definitely see the Doom making a comeback in some form, although "Super-Zoanthrope with Absorb Life, Cataclysm and Spirit Leech" will probably be overall less effective than the Doom usd to be.
If this happens I'll be superhappy. I just really don't hope we lose spores.
James811 wrote: Not long at all now guys, we will be fielding flyer spam before we know it
We are currently debating whether to get the codex and spend some time deliberating on what units to buy, or else pool our Christmas funds simply to get two (magnetized) Crones, and tool up with an all-flyer force simply to take down the one army that's tabled us, croissant spam. We like the player, but we want to kill his necrons.
The near-consensus that Gargoyles might be fieldable as troops seems to be fading away. But maybe we'll assemble a bunch more anyway.
Hivefleet Oblivion wrote: We are currently debating whether to get the codex and spend some time deliberating on what units to buy, or else pool our Christmas funds simply to get two (magnetized) Crones, and tool up with an all-flyer force simply to take down the one army that's tabled us, croissant spam. We like the player, but we want to kill his necrons.
I'd get the codex before I'd get the models. Besides not having the rules to know how to play said models, the flyers could turn out to be mediocre or even terrible. If the new flyers are T5 with a 4+ save like the current incarnation of the Harpy, those 'Scythes will probably eat them for dinner, all while being cheaper in points and more durable themselves.
The near-consensus that Gargoyles might be fieldable as troops seems to be fading away. But maybe we'll assemble a bunch more anyway.
By 'near-consensus' you mean a few guys including it on their wishlist? Haven't seen any real rumour about it at least.
Maelstrom808 wrote: They are the "Great Devourer" and as such should be eating people's faces off, not shooting them full of nasty worms.
What's the fundamental difference between a gaunt eating someone's face off and some living ammunition worm eating someone's face off ? I think neither the Hive Mind nor the guy whose face is eaten care so much about it.
Souleater wrote: However, folks often can't see past the fact that the fluff explains, e.g. Space Marines as being BS4 for various reasons so Sisters of Battle should not have been BS4. We end up with endless circular fluff arguments. When, in fact, the real reason for giving Sisters BS4 was so that the army could better function in its intended niche of a short ranged fire fight army.
No, Sisters have BS4 because they are really good at shooting in the fluff. Yeah, as good as space marines or IG veteran. They do train a lot, start early, and are rigorously selected among a huge lot of potential candidates. IG usually start later and don't train as hard, marines usually start later and, well, between all their hormonal troubles, close combat training, chapter indoctrination, etc, really don't train as hard to shoot during their early life.
But still, we definitely should have some “rookie” sisters unit.
Regarding BS of our monsters I'm overall pretty happy with the stats of the army with a couple exceptions:
Hive Tyrants - The commanders of the army, and the iconic tyranid monstrous creature (aside from the carnifex) should be BS4. Tyranid primes are BS4, tyrants should be too.
Tyrannofexes - Currently their S10 gun is very strong on paper but very weak in execution. Being an assault 2 weapon, it doesn't have weight of fire enough to bring down vehicles through hull points in a single attack, relying on a "6" penetration roll to instead kill a tank (in 5th edition, a 5 or 6 would kill a vehicle for an AP4 weapon). Additionally, with BS3, it only hits with 1 of those shots on average, even further reducing it's capability for it's designed role. The gun needs a higher ROF or the creature needs a better BS. I vote for better BS, since that will keep its role at anti-tank and not suddenly make him a thunderwolf cavalry assassin, etc.
Hive guard and Zoanthropes are BS4, despite neither having eyes. That's because their designed role in the book is shooting, and they have lower WS values to compensate. Upping the Tyrant and T-fex BS by 1 and leaving all others where they are now would be a perfect fix to the current stats, in my opinion.
Now, that aside -- 11 more days until white dwarf, and 18 more until the codex release!
Souleater wrote:Nid creatures can be even more specialised than CWE. Stealers have no shooting, for example.
Exactly this. I don't mean that Nids should never have good BS - just that, as long as their shooting is effective it doesn't matter. For example, a Forgefiend has BS3 (being a Daemon Engine) but it remains a solid shooting unit due to its 8 S8 shots (with optional plasma). That's not to say that all Tyranids must have low BS and high volume of fire - there's absolutely no reason why a sniper-beast couldn't be created - just that it wouldn't be so much of a problem ("it should be more skilled because fluff" vs "it should be more skilled because it sucks in shooting even though it's a shooting unit"). If Genestealers were WS4 and had enough attacks to make up for it, it would be strange but it wouldn't be that much of a problem.
Souleater wrote:The irksomeness of Marine players whining that Devastators lose in CC to Stealers
That just sounds funny. Does that really happen often?
Souleater wrote:
I would like to see Nids have specialist shooting available to deal with things to which CC is not a practical answer. Not to be able to out shoot gunline armies the way they could under the 4Ed Codex.
Yes. Like the Biovore... except not terrible. Hopefully the Exocrine will be good.
Ravenous D wrote:Proxy before you pay.
I heavily endorse this.
EDIT: I just love how Zoanthropes are still WS3/S4 and have Claws and Teeth. Also, the Doom (with appropriately heightened Strength) can be quite amusing in close combat. Poke their eyes out with your miniature scything talons!
Biovores are great in 6th edition. Barrage sniping paired with large blast AP4 templates in an era where Tau and Eldar reign supreme gives them a ton of great targets in today's meta. Just stay away from the 2+ Re-rollable crowd, but nobody really has a hard counter to those lists yet (other than Revenant titans).
tetrisphreak wrote: Regarding BS of our monsters I'm overall pretty happy with the stats of the army with a couple exceptions:
Hive Tyrants - The commanders of the army, and the iconic tyranid monstrous creature (aside from the carnifex) should be BS4. Tyranid primes are BS4, tyrants should be too.
Tyrannofexes - Currently their S10 gun is very strong on paper but very weak in execution. Being an assault 2 weapon, it doesn't have weight of fire enough to bring down vehicles through hull points in a single attack, relying on a "6" penetration roll to instead kill a tank (in 5th edition, a 5 or 6 would kill a vehicle for an AP4 weapon). Additionally, with BS3, it only hits with 1 of those shots on average, even further reducing it's capability for it's designed role. The gun needs a higher ROF or the creature needs a better BS. I vote for better BS, since that will keep its role at anti-tank and not suddenly make him a thunderwolf cavalry assassin, etc.
Hive guard and Zoanthropes are BS4, despite neither having eyes. That's because their designed role in the book is shooting, and they have lower WS values to compensate. Upping the Tyrant and T-fex BS by 1 and leaving all others where they are now would be a perfect fix to the current stats, in my opinion.
Now, that aside -- 11 more days until white dwarf, and 18 more until the codex release!
I think you are totally spot on. I just would go just a little bit further to just clean up some of the different units roles vs. stats as some are WAY off. Here is a quick list of the "Oddities":
Venomthrope - Why is the Venomthrope WS3 and BS4 but has NO guns and can't ever use guns? Wouldnt it make more sense for him to be either WS3/BS0 or WS4/BS0? Either or since he is a support beast, it doesnt really matter
Hive Gurad - Hive Guard are one of the only units in the current codex with WS4, that makes no sense.
Mawlocs/Carnifexs - Both of these are primary close combat monsters but only have WS 3 (Carnifex's had WS 6 in 2nd ed for crying out loud). I would love to see both of these guys go to WS4
Lictors vs. Ymgarls - why do both of these units exist as they are (role wise) 100% the same unit? The only difference is that Lictors don't work at all and Ymgarls are one of the best units in the codex. Would be nice to see Lictors get beefed up with Ymgarls deployment rules and Ymgarls just get removed as at that point they would be completely redundant.
Pyrovores - Why on earth do these guys have the same stat for stat as a Biovore? They are on 60mm bases which are the same as Tyrants and Carnifex's but are Str/T4. I would *love* to see these guys become a mid range CC "bunker buster" type unit. Give them the same stats as a Grotesque (Str 5/T5, 3 Wounds, 3 attacks) and a torrent flamer or even better, heavy flamer. It would give them a unit role and set them apart from Biovores
I know this is all massive wish listing, but it's only because there is nothing coming in till someone gets the codex. My prediction just based on what we have seen is that the book will be VERY close to the 5th ed Tyranid codex with just some minor rules tweaks and point tweaks. If you think about it, that really isn't a bad thing as the 5th ed book has lots of great ideas, just the points are totally off in most cases and some of the rules are the worst written rules in history (Trygon tunnel anyone? Onslaught anyone?). So far I really like what I am hearing and cant wait to get my hands on this book.
@ FrozenOcean: actual devastors aren't too common - generally I see Long Fangs. The complaint that 'stealers kill them in CC is very real and quite common.
Souleater wrote: @ FrozenOcean: actual devastors aren't too common - generally I see Long Fangs. The complaint that 'stealers kill them in CC is very real and quite common.
I'm pretty sure that just makes it even funnier. Aren't Long Fangs essentially just Devastators but arbitrarily better "because Space Wolves"?
ghoulio wrote: Lictors vs. Ymgarls - why do both of these units exist as they are (role wise) 100% the same unit? The only difference is that Lictors don't work at all and Ymgarls are one of the best units in the codex. Would be nice to see Lictors get beefed up with Ymgarls deployment rules and Ymgarls just get removed as at that point they would be completely redundant.
They are not even close to the same Lore wise.
Ymgarl Genestealers are extremely deadly Genestealers that want to hug the Hive Mind instead of run from it, and that are left behind after a planet is consumed.
Lictors are scout and assassin units who get reabsorbed every time.
Kanluwen wrote: I think in regards to the Venomthrope being BS4 that it might have originally been intended to have some kind of ranged attack.
That's fine...for play testing rules. Never should have made it into the final product. It's just like Pyrovores. Clearly what they are now is the very first set of playtesting rules that just somehow got forgotten about and made it into the final product. We dont need to see how they got there lol.
ghoulio wrote: Lictors vs. Ymgarls - why do both of these units exist as they are (role wise) 100% the same unit? The only difference is that Lictors don't work at all and Ymgarls are one of the best units in the codex. Would be nice to see Lictors get beefed up with Ymgarls deployment rules and Ymgarls just get removed as at that point they would be completely redundant.
They are not even close to the same Lore wise.
Ymgarl Genestealers are extremely deadly Genestealers that want to hug the Hive Mind instead of run from it, and that are left behind after a planet is consumed.
Lictors are scout and assassin units who get reabsorbed every time.
I said ROLE wise, not lore wise. I mean on the table top they essentially do the exact same thing. Both start the game off the board, both appear out of now where and are assault units. Hell, Lictors essentially had the Ymgarls deployment options in 4th ed. The only difference now is that one works...one doesn't.
ghoulio wrote: Lictors vs. Ymgarls - why do both of these units exist as they are (role wise) 100% the same unit? The only difference is that Lictors don't work at all and Ymgarls are one of the best units in the codex. Would be nice to see Lictors get beefed up with Ymgarls deployment rules and Ymgarls just get removed as at that point they would be completely redundant.
They are not even close to the same Lore wise.
Ymgarl Genestealers are extremely deadly Genestealers that want to hug the Hive Mind instead of run from it, and that are left behind after a planet is consumed.
Lictors are scout and assassin units who get reabsorbed every time.
"Lore" is only "role" when you switch the positions of the "l" and "r". Ghoulio means that they are both supposed to be ambush predators that leap from the shadows/behind you/terrain and kill your face. Ymgarls basically exist to steal the Lictor's thunder, so to speak; with the special "Dormant" rule, they can assault on the turn they come in, completely unlike Lictors. It's very strange - in the "lore", Lictors are described as the ultimate ambush predators, but the only thing they get from this is a sort of enhanced Deep Strike and no ability to assault on that turn (which invariably results in the death of the Lictor). The only justification for Ymgarl Genestealers (who are just weird Genestealers) is that they go to sleep a lot, while their "unique quirk" is supposedly their mutations (which absolutely nobody cares about). It just makes sense, from both the crunch and fluff standpoints, that Lictors should get the ability that Ymgarls have.
As for BS, I think it's rather funny. The Venomthrope has a Ballistic Skill and no shooting, but the Broodlord (which was granted access to shooting via Witchfires and random Psychic Powers) has BS0. It's like the Codex was future-proofed to still be silly even in the next edition.
Gah, I mustn't get caught up in more wishlisting. This thread is big enough!
ghoulio wrote: I said ROLE wise, not lore wise. I mean on the table top they essentially do the exact same thing. Both start the game off the board, both appear out of now where and are assault units. Hell, Lictors essentially had the Ymgarls deployment options in 4th ed. The only difference now is that one works...one doesn't.
Sorry - dyslexia or something. I could've sworn you said lore... even went back to check for an edit. =x
Lictors were popping up and assaulting things many editions ago. They were fantastic at it in 2nd. Each successive codex has drifted further from their initial role.
In 2nd Edition Nids had a couple of ways of disrupting enemy shooting, of which the Lictor was just one. And our MCs were comparatively tougher and more dangerous, too.
Given how shooty 6th is I hope that Nids get similar tools and the ability to rip things apart in CC. I still miss the Space Hulk vibe of Nids in 2nd Ed.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Lictors were great in 2nd Ed. Lictor with a Voltage Field could go toe-to-toe with most characters. WS7 and 4 attacks was a wonderful thing.
Dammit...I had forgotten just how amazing lictors were in 2nd lol. I miss them and I REALLY hope they are really worth taking (still some of my fave models period in any range).
Could just make the base stat 3 for BS and WS then for each melee biomorph (scything talons, etc) grant +1 WS and each shooting biomorph (rupture cannon, etc) grant +1 BS. Would this not denote a species designed to do their specific job?
Lictors are good assasins. Put a cluster of them against rear armor while staying in cover or pick off a devastator squad and have fun. 2 units of 3 lictors and 1 deathleaper is pretty deadly, esp if a tyrant can hand them OA (PE). They just require finesse.
Also, Hiveguard make sense with WS4. I play them aggressively and usually run them if at all possible. I try to melee rhinos and whatnot to blow them up or even charge them into a squad to clean them up.
ghoulio wrote: Venomthrope - Why is the Venomthrope WS3 and BS4 but has NO guns and can't ever use guns?
Celestine had BS7 and her only shooting weapon was a sword that acted like a heavy flamer. Well, now she can shoot grenades and gun emplacements, but I don't think they had that in mind when they choose to give her BS7. It's more a fluff thing or something.
Sure, but if you're within assault range and can see your target something has gone wrong with your plan (usually). Just like Biovores - I never try to get them in assault.
Frozen Ocean wrote: It's very strange - in the "lore", Lictors are described as the ultimate ambush predators, but the only thing they get from this is a sort of enhanced Deep Strike and no ability to assault on that turn (which invariably results in the death of the Lictor).
"He came from out of nowhere! A gigantic, sneaky alien monstrosity, covered in claws and spikes! I barely had time to empty my gun into him while he just stood there, then change the clip, then give him another burst when he ran at me! Terrifying."
Sinful Hero wrote: Aren't hive guard cannons assault weapons, allowing you to shoot and assault in the same turn?
Yes, but they are only S4 irrc. Making it really hard for a Hive Guard to wreck a rhino in CC.
S5. But still, the Hive Guard must have missed something fierce in the shooting phase if the Rhino that close to them is still alive.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
ghoulio wrote: Venomthrope - Why is the Venomthrope WS3 and BS4 but has NO guns and can't ever use guns?
Celestine had BS7 and her only shooting weapon was a sword that acted like a heavy flamer. Well, now she can shoot grenades and gun emplacements, but I don't think they had that in mind when they choose to give her BS7. It's more a fluff thing or something.
Aren't there points costs associated with the stat line as well? It's possible they didn't want Celestine (who's already cheap for what she does) to be like 60 points. Of if you leave her BS at 3 or even 0, you have to jack up her other stats and abilities to give her a fair cost and then she becomes stupid-busted.
Just a guess, but I think it's a fair attempt at balancing a character.
What's hilarious is when people waste a character on a gun emplacement. I see so many idiots buy Kharn and stick him on a gun because of his high BS. He's NEVER going to kill as much that way as he will hacking people to bits in close combat. And no, it's not hard to get him there.
I thank them for losing the game because of a bad internet-born strategy.
Ian Sturrock wrote:
Frozen Ocean wrote: It's very strange - in the "lore", Lictors are described as the ultimate ambush predators, but the only thing they get from this is a sort of enhanced Deep Strike and no ability to assault on that turn (which invariably results in the death of the Lictor).
"He came from out of nowhere! A gigantic, sneaky alien monstrosity, covered in claws and spikes! I barely had time to empty my gun into him while he just stood there, then change the clip, then give him another burst when he ran at me! Terrifying."
Quote of the freaking day. So true about our poor Lictor.
tetrisphreak wrote: Hive Tyrants - The commanders of the army, and the iconic tyranid monstrous creature (aside from the carnifex) should be BS4. Tyranid primes are BS4, tyrants should be too.
No arguments. Tyrants being less than BS4 is just wrong.
tetrisphreak wrote: Tyrannofexes - Currently their S10 gun is very strong on paper but very weak in execution. Being an assault 2 weapon, it doesn't have weight of fire enough to bring down vehicles through hull points in a single attack, relying on a "6" penetration roll to instead kill a tank (in 5th edition, a 5 or 6 would kill a vehicle for an AP4 weapon). Additionally, with BS3, it only hits with 1 of those shots on average, even further reducing it's capability for it's designed role. The gun needs a higher ROF or the creature needs a better BS. I vote for better BS, since that will keep its role at anti-tank and not suddenly make him a thunderwolf cavalry assassin, etc.
This is where I'd like to see additional effects. The fluff for the Rupture Cannon says that it relies on both projectiles hitting to create an implosion effect at the point of dual contact, which causes catastrophic damage. Leave the RoF where it is, though I'd argue a BS bump is justified given the specialised role of the creature. However, a special rule where if both projectiles hit, the weapon counts as AP1 would be a good way to represent the guns effect. Either hitting would be damaging - an armour peircing 'cannonball' would be very destructive, but not enough to warrant higher AP, same with a corrosive burst. Both hitting together creating the implosion effect? Give the hits AP1 to make destruction on a single successful volley assured.
ghoulio wrote: Dammit...I had forgotten just how amazing lictors were in 2nd lol. I miss them and I REALLY hope they are really worth taking (still some of my fave models period in any range).
Funniest instance of a Lictor not just shredding everything in its path was against a Chief Librarian in Terminator Armour. The two of them sat there for most of the game hammering away and one another. The Lictor kept winning, but that 3+ on 2d6 armour (and 4 wounds!) kept the Libby alive.
Literally over three pages of discussion on nid BS.
Can we lock this thread, or spit it to a new "Discussion regarding the Ballistic skill of specifically engineered combatants" topic?
In other news - got my harradin for Christmas, the new casts are superb and I am hoping to get him completed with the new bugs when they drop next month.
I have halted all other nid work to see what weapons/units/biomorphs will be worthwhile in the new book.
Literally over three pages of discussion on nid BS.
Can we lock this thread, or spit it to a new "Discussion regarding the Ballistic skill of specifically engineered combatants" topic?
In other news - got my harradin for Christmas, the new casts are superb and I am hoping to get him completed with the new bugs when they drop next month.
I have halted all other nid work to see what weapons/units/biomorphs will be worthwhile in the new book.
You are a very lucky gamer! The Harridan is definitely the first NON-SM forgeworld model I would buy... if I had the spare cash.
tetrisphreak wrote: Sooo, this probably goes without saying but why are smaller models (exocrine) $15 more than larger ones (tervigon)?
More parts. That and it has been stated that instead of the annual price hike GW will now just price new releases higher than comparable models that are already out (not sure if debunked or not, the rumor is at least a year old).
Those Harpy wings are much smaller than I thought they'd be. Thankfully I was planning on replacing them anyways.
The tail is disappointingly short as well. Perhaps I got used to people using the Trygon as a base model for Harpy conversions with a long serpentine tail. Perhaps it's also that GW makes stubby tails for all fliers.
Wow, for the price I definitely expected the exocrine to be bigger. That's disappointing.
The swarm box doesn't look too bad for $170 (right? or is it higher?), but that's way too many crappy hormagaunts for my liking. Should have just been all termagants.
Just wanna say again that I really don't like the new box art. I thought the themed backgrounds looked better (not as good as actual artwork like the old boxes but whatever). It also looks really weird when you have some boxes on the shelf still using the old style and these mixed in with them.
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Absolutionis wrote: Those Harpy wings are much smaller than I thought they'd be. Thankfully I was planning on replacing them anyways.
The tail is disappointingly short as well. Perhaps I got used to people using the Trygon as a base model for Harpy conversions with a long serpentine tail. Perhaps it's also that GW makes stubby tails for all fliers.
I honestly think part of the problem is that they're limited to how many sprues they can have per release. The harpy probably needed to fit on two sprues or something, so they couldn't get too big or elaborate or else it wouldn't all fit. The model is already ridiculously expensive as-is so making the kit any bigger would make the cost stupidly high...no one's going to pay superheavy prices for a mediocre flyer.
It's the same reason why I think the riptide looks like ass, the wraithknight has a tiny head, and every single Space Marine flyer looks like a "chibi"/stumpy version of a real flyer. Either that or they're deliberately making the models look silly.
On a side note is GW actually giving us a good deal for what we get now?
For example tactical squad,
£22.50 - old
£25 new.
That's a price rise of £2.50, for a far superior kit
Number of components is also critical,
New kit has 179 parts
Where as the old had around 110 (could not find exact number, had to count!)
So that's almost a 70 part imcrease! About 63%.
For a 10% price hike a 63% increase in bits is very good IMHO
Any way if the swarm box is lagit it works out to £103 so GW will bump that up to £110.
Each model works out at around £1.15 a remarkably good deal. (And yes the carnifex is also £1.15!)
The Exocrine most likely has the same number of sprues as the Tervigon. What is trades in height, it gains in girth. But yeah, the higher price is just their new way of raising prices.
That large tailspike on the Crone is probably the source of its higher strength Vector Strike. The tail is longer than its body, so I think that's perfectly in proportion. The wings are in a forward sweeping motion, so its wingspan would be bigger if the wings were fully extended.
The Wraithknight's 'tiny' head is a classic design choice to give it a sense of scale btw. I.e. if they made the head larger, the model would look smaller. Just look at any large comic book character like the Hulk or Juggernaut: 'tiny' heads.
That's because the Wraithlord is much smaller. The Revenant Titan's head is also much smaller in proportion to its body when compared to the Wraithlord (whose head is almost one third of its height) and not that different in proportions to the Wraithknight.
I honestly think part of the problem is that they're limited to how many sprues they can have per release. The harpy probably needed to fit on two sprues or something, so they couldn't get too big or elaborate or else it wouldn't all fit. The model is already ridiculously expensive as-is so making the kit any bigger would make the cost stupidly high...no one's going to pay superheavy prices for a mediocre flyer.
Pretty sure this theory makes no sense. From business perspective, first step is making a cool model, this is going to increase sales. If the unit has bad rules, well, just give them good rules. Your crazy if you think Harpy is getting a makeover with this codex, and would be getting ignored if someone from GW's modelling team hadn't decided to model it. They aren't just sitting there like hmmm, can't make this model too big, the rules just aren't good enough to justify selling it
Hell its a dualkit so people have to only want either it or the Crone and its going to sell. It is going to cost them nowhere near as much as you think per kit to spread the stuff out over a third sprue just to make the wings bigger if they desired - and if it did, they would just charge for it, and people WILL buy it.
These new pictures are great. The Exorcrine could use a bit more aggressive looking head as the one it has is goofy in a similar way as the Biovore head is, but that's about an easy a fix as fixes go since Tyranids are a kitbasher's and convertor's dream these days. Other than that the model is great and the price can be explained with you having a ton of bits left over after constructing either variant. The flyer looks fantastic. I love how compact and yet so elegant it looks. It's one of my favorite Tyranid models now.
I wonder has there been any rumours about the rules for Pyrovores? Anyone knows? I think people were saying they'd get the torrent rule and a price drop but I've no idea if it was just wishlisting.
SHUPPET wrote: Pretty sure this theory makes no sense. From business perspective, first step is making a cool model, this is going to increase sales. If the unit has bad rules, well, just give them good rules. Your crazy if you think Harpy is getting a makeover with this codex, and would be getting ignored if someone from GW's modelling team hadn't decided to model it. They aren't just sitting there like hmmm, can't make this model too big, the rules just aren't good enough to justify selling it
Hell its a dualkit so people have to only want either it or the Crone and its going to sell. It is going to cost them nowhere near as much as you think per kit to spread the stuff out over a third sprue just to make the wings bigger if they desired - and if it did, they would just charge for it, and people WILL buy it.
No, they're limited in the number of sprues they can make in a new release - they even stated exactly that at the Eldar release (if they wanted to do plastic Jetbikes, they'd have to drop the new Wraithguard kit). Also adding an extra sprue to the box would have most likely raised the price to Wraithknight price levels (~$115/€90). Also consider that it's probably going to be a T5 4+ monster that will probably have to rely on cover to give it some survivability against AA, it would be weird to much larger than all the T6 stuff.
Therion wrote: I wonder has there been any rumours about the rules for Pyrovores? Anyone knows? I think people were saying they'd get the torrent rule and a price drop but I've no idea if it was just wishlisting.
Considering any information that didn't come from the recent WD leaks as complete speculation and wishlisting is probably your best bet.
SHUPPET wrote: Pretty sure this theory makes no sense. From business perspective, first step is making a cool model, this is going to increase sales. If the unit has bad rules, well, just give them good rules. Your crazy if you think Harpy is getting a makeover with this codex, and would be getting ignored if someone from GW's modelling team hadn't decided to model it. They aren't just sitting there like hmmm, can't make this model too big, the rules just aren't good enough to justify selling it
Hell its a dualkit so people have to only want either it or the Crone and its going to sell. It is going to cost them nowhere near as much as you think per kit to spread the stuff out over a third sprue just to make the wings bigger if they desired - and if it did, they would just charge for it, and people WILL buy it.
No, they're limited in the number of sprues they can make in a new release - they even stated exactly that at the Eldar release (if they wanted to do plastic Jetbikes, they'd have to drop the new Wraithguard kit). Also adding an extra sprue to the box would have most likely raised the price to Wraithknight price levels (~$115/€90). Also consider that it's probably going to be a T5 4+ monster that will probably have to rely on cover to give it some survivability against AA, it would be weird to much larger than all the T6 stuff.
Therion wrote: I wonder has there been any rumours about the rules for Pyrovores? Anyone knows? I think people were saying they'd get the torrent rule and a price drop but I've no idea if it was just wishlisting.
Considering any information that didn't come from the recent WD leaks as complete speculation and wishlisting is probably your best bet.
This makes a lot more sense. The logic from my quoted post didn't make much sense, but I didn't know the facts behind it. TY for enlightening me.
I'm actually a huge fan of the Haruspex model, and suprised it hasn't had as much feedback. I guess that paint scheme is really bad, but I think the model itself is nice and I prefer it much more than the exocrine.
I actually like the exorcine being smaller than the Tyranofex. With the exorcine supposedly being artillery, it makes sense it would be smaller than the walking tank of a Tyranofex. Then again, I think that in terms of bulk it actually edges out the T-Fex because it doesn't have that tall skinny back end ala the Heirophant Bio-Titan.
So with C-Fexes coming two in a box, do we think unit size is 1-2 or 1-4 now? Seems odd to have a 1-3 unit size for a 2 model box.
Hive Guard - 3 per box (currently) in units of 1-3.
Raveners - 3 per box (currently) in units of 3-9 I think.
Warriors - 3 per box (currently) in units of 3-9.
Gargoyles - 10 per box, units of 10-30.
Granted, Terms and Horms are 12 per box with units of 10-30, but those are older sprues I believe?
So with C-Fexes coming two in a box, do we think unit size is 1-2 or 1-4 now? Seems odd to have a 1-3 unit size for a 2 model box.
I suspect it's a cost-cutting and stock-clearing exercise. I wouldn't be surprised if you only got 1 weapons sprue between the 2 Fexes in the box.
That would at least mean they'd be able to take different weapons, as the current rules dictate all Fexes in the same brood have to take the same gear.
brassangel wrote: Aren't there points costs associated with the stat line as well?
No. GW decide point costs and GW decide stat lines and GW has no obligation to make them match. For instance, a chaos space marine and a dominion cost the same, IIRC. The chaos space marine has +1BS, +1S, +1T, +1I, …
brassangel wrote: It's possible they didn't want Celestine (who's already cheap for what she does)
She was cheap for what she did. Not anymore. Now, she is a little bit on the expensive side, but still so much better than our only generic HQ…
So with C-Fexes coming two in a box, do we think unit size is 1-2 or 1-4 now? Seems odd to have a 1-3 unit size for a 2 model box.
I suspect it's a cost-cutting and stock-clearing exercise. I wouldn't be surprised if you only got 1 weapons sprue between the 2 Fexes in the box.
That would at least mean they'd be able to take different weapons, as the current rules dictate all Fexes in the same brood have to take the same gear.
Based on the leaked Tyranid warrior entry, if there isn't extra language in the biomorph upgrade section it looks like you can mix and match weapons. I think the only restriction was only one could purchase a weapon of the bio-canon list. Carnifex could follow the same trend.
Hi,
I've just joined this forum, because i've noticed on the UKGW site the Hive Guard and Tyrant Guard have been removed.
Don't know if this means anything but i thought i'd share it anyway
The Miniature Man wrote: Hi,
I've just joined this forum, because i've noticed on the UKGW site the Hive Guard and Tyrant Guard have been removed.
Don't know if this means anything but i thought i'd share it anyway
I have a hunch that they will be combined in a new plastic kit that will be released in January. Just a hunch though.
Having seen the new picture of the Exocrine, I have to say that it looks like a much faster creature than the Tyrannofex. The powerful built legs seem more designed for speed. This could mean that the Haruspex is a fast Monstrous Creature as they share the same body design.
Annoyed that it is smaller than the Tyrannofex, would have loved to have a truly large monster to add to the Fleet.
The Swarm box seems to be a place addition to Tyranid forces. Also, as it comes with a single Carnifex, I think it is safe to say that they still come in Broods of 1+. Just need to have the price confirmed, if it is £100 that is a brilliant deal!
azreal13 wrote: No such thing, in game terms, as a fast MC dude. Are you perhaps getting mixed up with Flying MC, or are you proposing there will be a new type?
He probably means a MC that is fast, I.E. Can move 12' instead of 6, or something a long those lines.
azreal13 wrote: No such thing, in game terms, as a fast MC dude. Are you perhaps getting mixed up with Flying MC, or are you proposing there will be a new type?
Correct, still space for special rules to allow for faster movement. Whether that be a special assault rule, or moves 12" in the movement phase.
The crone looks fine. The red paint scheme shot makes it look like an upsized gargoyle.
The new shot has turned the exocrine into a strong pass from a fail. I'm happy it bucks the trend of bigger, bigger, bigger. Derpy head is easily remedied, fluff be damned.
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS. Thanks for some new content! Finally!
The more I look at the new pictures of the crone the more it is growing on me. I love the tail spike, that looks rather deadly, think the one painted in Behemoth colours gives a better feel for the model. The pale colour of Leviathan doesn't capture the size well I find.
If you can't afford it, don't buy it. Or, stop not being able to afford it by planning accordingly.
This is just... one of the worst things I have seen someone say in awhile.
Thank you. If I can't afford it, I DON'T buy it. The fact that I can't afford it, and don't buy it does not change the fact that the recent price increases have been egregious. I'm not some kind of knee-jerk GW-hater. But I'd really like to see you somehow justify the shameless cash-grab policies that GW has been degenerating into lately.
-C6
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tetrisphreak wrote: User "endobai" on warseer has posted with a couple cryptic messages that sound like they've had access to the January white dwarf, or possibly vendor pricing list. He inasmuch said he's seen the prices of the new kits.
In that same vein he said the price raise of the new warriors would be akin to the one space marine tacticals had, IE 37-40 bucks. The tac squad box came with a ton of new bits and the warrior box is expected to come with new bits too, i would maybe tentatively suggest it goes from $47 to $49.50 or $50.00 like terminators.
Either way, even if the price stays the same, something needs to be done with their rules to make them worth the same IN GAME as 5 terminators or wraith guard.
I actually was thinking about the new Tac. squad just after I posted my original comment. I like the wealth, and utility, of the new stuff added to that box. If this one comes with many useful new bits, a price increase would be more justified.
With that in mind, I'll suspend my (admittedly premature, since we don't know the new costs) judgement and wait to see the prices and contents of the new stuff.
That all said though, I don't think GW deserves the benefit of the doubt. At the very least, at 3 Warriors per box, it seems very unlikely that GW will pull a Dire Avengers and stick you with the same/higher price for less models.
-C6
Here is a games workshop defense on pricing. They are in a business to make money. They will continue to raise prices as long as they make money. This is what a business does. Could the sell them for less? Yes but why should they. They make good rules for new models and price them high. Would they have sold as many helldrakes if it was ap5 and not 360
I've seen you say a lot of things that have annoyed people on here over the last few weeks, the quote skkipper has put of your words above this post are appalling. Some people barely get by month to month so affording it is not a choice, regardless of how much they 'plan accordingly'.
You deserve to be banned for what you have said. It is disgusting!
I don't just get by thank you, I wasn't talking about me but if someone spoke to me that way I would not be happy if I was in that situation. And everyone deserves to do a little something they enjoy. And it wasn't his opinion, it was how he put it across as if they guy he was talking about had no capability of planning maybe he doesn't have enough regardless of how much he plans!
Even at a cheaper-per-carnifex price, it's still a high-price item for little Timmy wanting to spend his Xmas money, especially if he only really wanted one carnifex.
It just might be a splash release (i.e. only the existing single-carnifex box will remain long-term), but if so seems like a lot of effort on GW's part.
Speculation re a shared sprue does make sense production-wise (in which case the dual kit would replace the single kit), but there's nothing on the box photo to suggest a changed kit.
Fluff-wise, it just might hint at the new codex allowing 'squadron' units of multiple fexes, bringing tears of joy to nid players wanting to field 9 fexes
Even at a cheaper-per-carnifex price, it's still a high-price item for little Timmy wanting to spend his Xmas money, especially if he only really wanted one carnifex.
It just might be a splash release (i.e. only the existing single-carnifex box will remain long-term), but if so seems like a lot of effort on GW's part.
Speculation re a shared sprue does make sense production-wise (in which case the dual kit would replace the single kit), but there's nothing on the box photo to suggest a changed kit.
Fluff-wise, it just might hint at the new codex allowing 'squadron' units of multiple fexes, bringing tears of joy to nid players wanting to field 9 fexes
Carnifexes are already available in broods, wouldnt that essentially be the same thing?
possibly its a sign they're changing broods to 1-2 supposing they're good enough to justify less, or 1-4 supposing they're cheap enough to justify more
Even at a cheaper-per-carnifex price, it's still a high-price item for little Timmy wanting to spend his Xmas money, especially if he only really wanted one carnifex.
It just might be a splash release (i.e. only the existing single-carnifex box will remain long-term), but if so seems like a lot of effort on GW's part.
Speculation re a shared sprue does make sense production-wise (in which case the dual kit would replace the single kit), but there's nothing on the box photo to suggest a changed kit.
Fluff-wise, it just might hint at the new codex allowing 'squadron' units of multiple fexes, bringing tears of joy to nid players wanting to field 9 fexes
I'm guessing that Carnifexes are going to be broods of 1-3.
Look at the $175 box with 95 models, one of them is a Carnifex. Then you go and add a Carnifex Brood box and voila--full Carnifex brood.
Even at a cheaper-per-carnifex price, it's still a high-price item for little Timmy wanting to spend his Xmas money, especially if he only really wanted one carnifex.
It just might be a splash release (i.e. only the existing single-carnifex box will remain long-term), but if so seems like a lot of effort on GW's part.
Speculation re a shared sprue does make sense production-wise (in which case the dual kit would replace the single kit), but there's nothing on the box photo to suggest a changed kit.
Fluff-wise, it just might hint at the new codex allowing 'squadron' units of multiple fexes, bringing tears of joy to nid players wanting to field 9 fexes
You could already field 9 though? I suspect the real reason is GW is trialling price cuts as it's figured out it's past its ideal price elasticity peak. However, they still want their models to be viewed as a "quality" product, which significant price cuts from the main supplier would undermine, not to mention the backlash from independent retailers who could potentially end up paying costs over sales, meaning they'd be unlikely to stock GW any more. However, they circumvent the issue by repacking with multiple of the same models in a box; the price per model falls, but they have no issue with selling off the remaining stock of single model boxes. It's similar to what they did with Crisis suits, Destroyers and Bikers a while back. I don't believe it's the correct way to do it (they would get more goodwill by announcing price drops for example, and they're in desperate need of any consumer goodwill at all) but it's something that other companies have done before. Once you're then happy that enough of the stock has gone and it's been a fairly long time, you can drop them back to 1 model a box at the new discounted price without it appearing to average joe that you've ever discounted a model hence maintaining the illusion of being a "quality" choice. It sounds dumb but it does work in theory.
Or, you know, they could just be clearing excess stock. Seems less likely but it's still a possibility and my theory would assume SOME competence in marketing, which we've seen a severe lack of before.
Yesssssssss Cronessssssss. Bombing, slashing, drooling, firing missiles which kill airborn things. Why buy any other unit? Why not rename the codex as Codex Croneeeeeeees.
WTF is the medic, the Crone's fired a tentacle missle up my ass
What's funny is that, I think I actually need that swarm box (if the built-in discount is worthy) more than anything else to fill out my ebay Nid army. I have a good bit of MC's and barely a minimum of troops.
Of course I might need to flip through the codex first to decide what is worth buying. But I truly hope that real swarm lists are viable because that's what I think of when I think of Tyranids.
I'm just looking forward to breaking up the monotony of building Tau. I'm hoping to fully customize the whole army. It's going to be my first attempt at customizing anything. I'm really hoping the codex turns out well or I'll have to go with 1 of my fallback armies of IG or Orks lol.
Hmm... even I'm liking the look of the Swarm now. Another 10 Gargoyles would bring me to 60, and I could turn that Carnifex into a Hive Tyrant easily (just reverse the torso - makes it very tall!). Although the thought of putting together another 60 Gaunts (on top of the 80 I already have) does turn the stomach a little.
I can tell you that batch painting 30 termagants to a high quality standard is painful. Enough to burn me out temporarily...and im a person who really enjoys painting.
Well I have NIB set of gargoyles so the swarm plus another box of the flying gribblies would give me 30/40/40. Plus whatever I have in my box. I guess I actually need to properly inventory my ebay army to see what is missing or what I might need more of.
AesSedai wrote: I can tell you that batch painting 30 termagants to a high quality standard is painful. Enough to burn me out temporarily...and im a person who really enjoys painting.
FWIW, and others will have better examples, but we do our Termagants bone with a (complicated) blue carapace - but as we're assembling new ones, we undercoat in army painter, wash in Gryphonne sepia, spray the bases black separately then they're good enough for the table - we reckon newly-spawned ones are pale. Then we finish off the carapaces later.
But you're right, 30 seems to pass the pain barrier in a way 10 never could.
There's always someone who gets their stuff early. Is that a paperback book you took a photo of? The cover just looks a little too...bendy to be the new hardbacks.
I remember on CMoN, before the 5th edition book came out, some guy had painted a Trygon to completion (and a 9.0 rating) 10 days before the release of the model.
His explanation?
"Due to a shipping error, I somehow got this guy early..."
Lovely picture, Hivefleet. I anticipate a berserk flurry of questions shortly.
I wouldn't bite off more than 10 at a time under normal circumstances, but I have a triple tervigon list to play in early January for my clubs' monthly escalation match.
AesSedai wrote: Lovely picture, Hivefleet. I anticipate a berserk flurry of questions shorty.
I wouldn't bite off more than 10 at a time under normal circumstances, but I have a triple tervigon list to play in early January for my clubs' monthly escalation match.
I'll start the flurry
I'm sure one of the big things, what does Synapse do?
Stats for the new stuff, Haruspex, we have really heard nothing about, so could you give us the skinny on him?
Were those Apex Biomorphs real?
Is the Tyrannofex any good now?
I'm sure myself, and many Nid fans will apperciate answering questions!
Since everyone else will ask the hard hitting stuff, I'm just curious if that isn't the normal hardcover. It looks bent like a softcover but it might just be the perspective.
AesSedai wrote: Lovely picture, Hivefleet. I anticipate a berserk flurry of questions shorty.
I wouldn't bite off more than 10 at a time under normal circumstances, but I have a triple tervigon list to play in early January for my clubs' monthly escalation match.
I'll start the flurry
I'm sure one of the big things, what does Synapse do?
Stats for the new stuff, Haruspex, we have really heard nothing about, so could you give us the skinny on him?
Were those Apex Biomorphs real?
Is the Tyrannofex any good now?
I'm sure myself, and many Nid fans will apperciate answering questions!
Time to come clean: that's a mockup used to house a Dark Sphere gifts voucher, just to get Hivefleet Jr in the mood. I didn't think it would look so convincing, sorry to get yer hopes up!
Hivefleet Oblivion wrote: Time to come clean: that's a mockup used to house a Dark Sphere gifts voucher, just to get Hivefleet Jr in the mood. I didn't think it would look so convincing, sorry to get yer hopes up!
Can you PM your GPS coordinates. I need to test out this space-based laser I got for X-Mas from my mad scientist uncle, and right now you seem like excellent target test case.
Well, I've got $370 not a bad haul, although that is also ten weeks of savings.
I'm gonna get the codex, which will probs be 93 so I'l have $270. Any suggestions of what else I'm thinking a trygon, which is another hundred.
Hivefleet Oblivion wrote: Time to come clean: that's a mockup used to house a Dark Sphere gifts voucher, just to get Hivefleet Jr in the mood. I didn't think it would look so convincing, sorry to get yer hopes up!
That's the kind of stunt that earns you a ban from a jilted mod.
Unless, of course, Gargoyles stay in Fast Attack in the new codex. There haven't been any rumours about them moving to Troops, only some guys wishlisting it so.
Not to say it won't happen, just don't count on it.
Prices don't generally go up anymore, the just bring in new kits at higher price ranges, and rebox stuff like the carnifex into duel boxes which cost more, but work out cheaper per fex. Which I'm perfectly happy with.
Though I don't believe gargoyles will be moving to troops, I think they are a prime candidate for a FOC shuffle. Wasn't there something solid about something granting shifts in the FOC?
AesSedai wrote: Though I don't believe gargoyles will be moving to troops, I think they are a prime candidate for a FOC shuffle. Wasn't there something solid about something granting shifts in the FOC?
The Gargoyle story came from BOLS - and let's face it, all those earlier rumours were entirely speculation. THey predicted there would be a dual hive/tyrnat guard trip, but I bet they won't be reminding us of the plastic zoanthrope and DoM kit that was "planned." The Rumour suggested that using a flyrant opton would enable gargyoles as troops, in the same way as a biker warboss makes biker nobs troops
Re pricing, the Crone might well be pricey, but otherwise there's no significant price rise - factor in the boneswords, etc, and warriors have seen a price cut compared with how much it used to cost to kit them out. I'm more bothered about how they perform than a couple quid on the pricetag, though...
Give tyranid prime the eternal warrior aura , join with warriors and put a ripper swarm "bubble" around your unit and you have a pretty beefy scoring HQ unit for fairly cheap.
Plenty of other codexes include Special Character rules which allow unit reclassification (e.g. take character X and a particular unit then can be taken as Troops instead of (or as well as) Elites), so it's not impossible GW will do something similar for nids, e.g. a winged Hive Tyrant might allow Gargoyles to be taken as Troops. I hope so, as something along those lines would allow a number of very different army builds...but I'm not holding my breath.
Medium of Death wrote: With the amount of new flying kits it would be a shame not to allow an all winged Nid force.
Looking forward to the GW pics, which go up this Saturday don't they?
Thought the teaser would be this Saturday?
Could be, but I think that it will be sometime next week. Most of the past teasers have been on a weekday prior to the Saturday of the preorder. My money is on Wednesday or Thursday. But I hope I am wrong and it is this weekend. The suspense is killing me
the shrouded lord wrote: Just did some calculations. If the first post cost are American, the 2x carnifex will be 110 aus, 50 bucks cheaper than normal.
Holy gak. If they squeeze 2 Carnifexes into the $110 bracket, I'll definitely grab that box. It'll probably push out the Harpy box I was gonna get, since I was looking at grabbing 1 of each new set.
rpricew wrote: Can't wait to see the new models painted up in Nard's pink scheme!
Nard will do his best to paint pink things as quickly as pink paint will dry in a pink room.........this may not be very quick but I will endeavour to paint something as soon as I can and I will be buying plastic crack on the 11th Jan
the shrouded lord wrote: Just did some calculations. If the first post cost are American, the 2x carnifex will be 110 aus, 50 bucks cheaper than normal.
Holy gak. If they squeeze 2 Carnifexes into the $110 bracket, I'll definitely grab that box. It'll probably push out the Harpy box I was gonna get, since I was looking at grabbing 1 of each new set.
GW..pricing a kit... at a cheaper price than usual?! what weird fantasy reality is this?!
the shrouded lord wrote: Just did some calculations. If the first post cost are American, the 2x carnifex will be 110 aus, 50 bucks cheaper than normal.
Holy gak. If they squeeze 2 Carnifexes into the $110 bracket, I'll definitely grab that box. It'll probably push out the Harpy box I was gonna get, since I was looking at grabbing 1 of each new set.
They're currently 53.75.. It's cheaper than 110. I don't see where it's a deal?
the shrouded lord wrote: Just did some calculations. If the first post cost are American, the 2x carnifex will be 110 aus, 50 bucks cheaper than normal.
Holy gak. If they squeeze 2 Carnifexes into the $110 bracket, I'll definitely grab that box. It'll probably push out the Harpy box I was gonna get, since I was looking at grabbing 1 of each new set.
They're currently 53.75.. It's cheaper than 110. I don't see where it's a deal?
They're referring to Aus $$$, where a fex is currently $83
Hivefleet Oblivion wrote: The Rumour suggested that using a flyrant option would enable gargyoles as troops, in the same way as a biker warboss makes biker nobs troops.
Actually a standard warboss makes any kind of nobz troops.
Is this a relic or..a new box? I found this while looking at the carnifex it had a link to " similar products". I really do hope that's not the old box before they split them up for no good reason.
That was the original Gaunts box. Came with half Hormagaunts, half Termagants. Everyone complained because people either wanted one or the other, not even amounts of both.
That's why the Hormagaunt sprue has no toxin sacs or adrenal glands - they were included in the box on the Termagant sprue. When they split them up, part of the sacrifice was no biomorphs in the Hormagaunt box, and all of the biomoprhs in the Termagant box.
for those who think we are getting boxes of fex's at $110 aud forgot the gw 'we hate Australia and New Zealand' policy. expect at least $130 at best. I may be wrong but usually games worksop products are at least 20% more expensive than the world after conversions. our fexs are 37% more expensive than americas converted price and I would expect that to stay the same. it will be about 150-160 aud is my guess.
Jd7 wrote: for those who think we are getting boxes of fex's at $110 aud forgot the gw 'we hate Australia and New Zealand' policy. expect at least $130 at best. I may be wrong but usually games worksop products are at least 20% more expensive than the world after conversions. our fexs are 37% more expensive than americas converted price and I would expect that to stay the same. it will be about 150-160 aud is my guess.
This has been pretty wrong for the last few major releases. GW have been pretty conservative with new prices in Australia, while ballooning prices in the US and UK. It's almost as if they were using Australia as the price testbed, and once they saw price elasticity go to gak in Australia, they knew they hit their limit and are now working on raising other countries to match our prices. It also makes it less useful for us to order from overseas - the discount from our strong dollar is offset by those countries having equally ridiculous pricing.
Look at the prices of large models released since 6th edition. Heldrake - $74us/$81au. Wraithknight - $115us/$125au. Even the Apocalypse sized. Lord of Skulls - $160us/$170au.
If the rumour is $90us for the Carnifex brood, I wouldn't expect more than $120au for us, and that would be really pushing it. I'd personally pay up to $130au for that box, considering it would still be nearly a $40au saving.
He supposedly got to see the new codex in a veterans tour at Warhammer World.
Rumors:
Tyranids can't take fortifications, but have +1 HQ, +1 Elites, +2 Troops, +1FA and +1 HS
Tyranids are going to have 3 supplements: Leviathan, Kraken, and Jormungandr. It is going to be a swarmy one, a nydzilla one and an infiltration one. But GW hasn't started to write them yet so anything may come.
There are advanced, basic, experimental, etc biomorphs.
Shadow in the Warp is a 12" bubble of -4 ld for enemy psych test, but also grants units the 5+ to deny.
No way to make Warriors viable, according to him the Eternal Warrior rumors are wrong.
Toxins Sacs may be the same, according to him the wording was poison 4+ to the attacks, not making any distinction between CC and ranged.
Flesh Hooks are assault grenades and d6 S6 ap5 rending and precision shoots.
Adrenals Glands give Furious Charge and the +3" run.
Scything Talons give an additional attack.
No Doom of Malan'tai, Parasite and Mycetic Spores.
Regeneration gives IWND.
Catalyst gives +1 to FNP and IWND.
Venom Cannon is S9 ap4 2 shots.
Deathspitter is back to being a blast.
Barbed Strangler is st6 ap5 and must take a S test or take d6 st4 ap3 hits.
Stranglethorn Cannon is the same but S8 and pinning.
Acid, explosive and poison spore mines are back.
Any Prime unit can be HQ, this includes Warrior Prime, Trygon Prime and Old One Eye.
Only 1 Psych Powers chart.
Carnifex:
120 points
Got a new page of upgrades.
2+ save for 15 points
1d3 Hammer of Wrath attacks
Can attack the occupants of a transport after destroying it in CC.
Harpy:
140 points
Fast Attack unit
WS 4 BS 3 S 7 T 5 W 4 I 5 A 3 LD 8 sv 4+
Sonic Shriek is when it flies over unit.
Also carries spore mines
Born in the Skies: Can't be grounded
Crone:
170 points
Fast Attack unit
WS 3 BS 3 S 8 T 5 W 5 I 5 A 3 LD 8 sv 3+
4 S7 ap2 shoots or 1 S7 ap2 large blast
Missiles
Born in the Skies: Can't be grounded
"Haruspex":
Elite unit
"Magna Graple" attack
WS 4 BS 3 S 8(or 9, he wasn't sure) T 6 W 5 I 4 A 5 LD 8 sv 3+
"Exocrine":
Heavy Support unit
3 S10 ap3 shoots or 1 S10 ap2 large blast ordnance
WS 4 BS 3 S 8(or 9, he wasn't sure) T 6 W 5 I 4 A 3 LD 8 sv 3+
Tyrannofex:
180 points
Rupture Cannon cost 20 points
Old One Eye:
300 points
It is an upgrade for a Carnifex brood, but it also can be an HQ option
4+ IWND
3+ FNP
2+ Save
Hive Tyrant:
160 points
BS4
Wings for 30 points
Mastery Level 2
Tervigon:
170 points
Mastery Level 2
Can take 1 of 3 upgrades for spawn: 4d6 spawn, or the no run out for doubles, or all gaunts (note that it includes Termas, Hormas and Gargoyles) benefit from Toxin sacs and Adrenal Glands
Also you can customize the spawn options for a cost, for example spawning hormagaunts or spinegaunts
Bio electric field: 6 S6 ap5 shoots or a 5++ invulnerable save
Trygon Prime:
Gaping Maw experimental biomorph: If half or more of the attacks hit, a random model in b2b takes an Initiative test, if fails it is removed from play. According to him it has no limitations, so it can eliminate a Riptide or anything else.
Mawlocs:
140 points
1d3 blast with the ignores cover rule for its attack from below
Tyrant Guard:
Broods of 1-5
Lots of options
Hive Guard:
New gun is Spike Cannon, S7 ap4 2 shoots with Skyfire, enemy must reroll successful grounding tests
Very interesting news... I'm drowning in salt, but many of these sound true. However, the report on Tervigons is suspicious because those rumors came from reddit (?) an were proven to be wish listing. I'd love it for them to be true, but that part makes me question the while thing. But, I really hope it's true...
Those Exocrine stats go against what we have been shown in the WD, for it's weapon.
I would like a lot of this to be true, and I suspected that the Harpy and Crone would not be ground-able from the start. I just feel like a lot of this is not.
-Loki- wrote: This has been pretty wrong for the last few major releases. GW have been pretty conservative with new prices in Australia, while ballooning prices in the US and UK. It's almost as if they were using Australia as the price testbed, and once they saw price elasticity go to gak in Australia, they knew they hit their limit and are now working on raising other countries to match our prices. It also makes it less useful for us to order from overseas - the discount from our strong dollar is offset by those countries having equally ridiculous pricing.
My thoughts exactly. The release-based price increases have had the least impact on us because everyone else seems to be catching us, rather than blanket X% rises for each release worldwide.
"Exocrine": Heavy Support unit
3 S10 ap3 shoots or 1 S10 ap2 large blast ordnance
WS 4 BS 3 S 8(or 9, he wasn't sure) W 5 I 4 A 3 LD 8 sv 3+
Here's a big shooty creature that does nothing but shoot all day, dreams about shooting when it isn't shooting, can only ever talk about shooting at parties (even HTH parties - it still talks about shooting), talks about shooting in its sleep, joined the Imperial equivalent to the NRA, and was genetically engineered and created by a massive galaxy-spanning intellect to do pretty much nothing beyond shoot at things.
Tyran wrote: Guys, he went to this tour 6 weeks ago, so not all of it is going to be precise.
For the Tervigon part, he specified that you only can buy 1 upgrade of the 3.
Anyway we will know the truth in 2.5 weeks XD.
well, this kinda flies in the face of how GW has been operating. I really doubt that anyone outside of the studio was shown a copy of the Codex that early, with the way GW has locked down rumors.
3 S10 ap3 shoots or 1 S10 ap2 large blast ordnance
WS 4 BS 3 S 8(or 9, he wasn't sure) W 5 I 4 A 3 LD 8 sv 3+
Here's a big shooty creature that does nothing but shoot all day, dreams about shooting when it isn't shooting, can only ever talk about shooting at parties (even HTH parties - it still talks about shooting), talks about shooting in its sleep, joined the Imperial equivalent to the NRA, and was genetically engineered and created by a massive galaxy-spanning intellect to do pretty much nothing beyond shoot at things.
And it has BS3.
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU...
Be fair - most of the time you're going to be firing the ordnance shot, which 1 more BS wouldn't make a difference to.
3 S10 ap3 shoots or 1 S10 ap2 large blast ordnance
WS 4 BS 3 S 8(or 9, he wasn't sure) W 5 I 4 A 3 LD 8 sv 3+
Here's a big shooty creature that does nothing but shoot all day, dreams about shooting when it isn't shooting, can only ever talk about shooting at parties (even HTH parties - it still talks about shooting), talks about shooting in its sleep, joined the Imperial equivalent to the NRA, and was genetically engineered and created by a massive galaxy-spanning intellect to do pretty much nothing beyond shoot at things.
If even half that is true my bank account is going to take a HUGE hit... catalyst on old one eye makes him a 1 model deathstar... I actually giggled evilly at some of that so here's really hoping at least some of it is true *crosses fingers*
That's all really cool stuff, hard to believe but most new codices are like that.
So catalyst granting +1 to FNP and IWND must mean access to biomancy is still available. It seems completely designed to pair with endurance. Also a 2+ FNP old one eye -- nids with a 2+ rerollable!
Adrenals giving a benefit to run rolls and hormagaunts getting to run + assault isn't as broken as it appears on paper. At their fastest they'd only be able to charge 3" further than beasts. It's still nice to see speed as a factor though - adding 3 to my Trygon and carnifex run rolls will be awesome. Also seeing a 2+ save available to fexes again makes me happy.
A teaser for escalation was up 7d before white dwarf. Here's hoping we see a nid trailer tomorrow night in the US.
I really don't Old One Eye to become the "default" Carnifex. He's the worst offender of the "Tyranids shouldn't have special characters" line of thinking, because he is a one-off creature created by circumstance, not something the Hive Mind did.
Even his name is stupid.
And it always reminds me of the 3rd Ed Carnifex model and what a travesty it was.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I really don't Old One Eye to become the "default" Carnifex. He's the worst offender of the "Tyranids shouldn't have special characters" line of thinking, because he is a one-off creature created by circumstance, not something the Hive Mind did.
Even his name is stupid.
And it always reminds me of the 3rd Ed Carnifex model and what a travesty it was.
And yet, given GWs track record, you could totally see that happening couldn't you?
Shadow in the Warp is a 12" bubble of -4 ld for enemy psych test, but also grants units the 5+ to deny.
A deathstar just died.
No way to make Warriors viable, according to him the Eternal Warrior rumors are wrong.
Shame. But this is GW, so T4 models with 3 wounds each have plenty going for them.
No Doom of Malan'tai, Parasite and Mycetic Spores.
I'm fine with this. Named characters come and go, and I'm very fine with not having to deal with scratch built Spores if that was the only alternative. They should've given Nids the ability to deep strike with invisible Spores that disappear when you land though.
Carnifex
120 points
Got a new page of upgrades.
2+ save for 15 points
1d3 Hammer of Wrath attacks
Can attack the occupants of a transport after destroying it in CC.
Doesn't seem that bad. Can it get any guns that do something?
Harpy:
140 points
Fast Attack unit
WS 4 BS 3 S 7 T 5 W 4 I 5 A 3 LD 8 sv 4+
Sonic Shriek is when it flies over unit.
Also carries spore mines
Born in the Skies: Can't be grounded
The Tau Cadre Fire Support Broadsides with an attached Buffcommander that makes them ignore cover brings these all down when they enter play. 2+ to wound, no saves of any kind. By-bye. The born in the skies rule is good though.
Crone:
170 points
Fast Attack unit
WS 3 BS 3 S 8 T 5 W 5 I 5 A 3 LD 8 sv 3+
4 S7 ap2 shoots or 1 S7 ap2 large blast
Missiles
Born in the Skies: Can't be grounded
Save 3+. 5 wounds, AP2 large template plus other stuff. Instant win. Expect 3 in every Nid list.
Hive Guard:
New gun is Spike Cannon, S7 ap4 2 shoots with Skyfire, enemy must reroll successful grounding tests
Seems like Nids got an answer for everything now. Excellent.
Tyran wrote: I just have a nice chat with a player in Vassal.
He supposedly got to see the new codex in a veterans tour at Warhammer World.
Spoiler:
Rumors:
Tyranids can't take fortifications, but have +1 HQ, +1 Elites, +2 Troops, +1FA and +1 HS
Tyranids are going to have 3 supplements: Leviathan, Kraken, and Jormungandr. It is going to be a swarmy one, a nydzilla one and an infiltration one. But GW hasn't started to write them yet so anything may come.
There are advanced, basic, experimental, etc biomorphs.
Shadow in the Warp is a 12" bubble of -4 ld for enemy psych test, but also grants units the 5+ to deny.
No way to make Warriors viable, according to him the Eternal Warrior rumors are wrong.
Toxins Sacs may be the same, according to him the wording was poison 4+ to the attacks, not making any distinction between CC and ranged.
Flesh Hooks are assault grenades and d6 S6 ap5 rending and precision shoots.
Adrenals Glands give Furious Charge and the +3" run.
Scything Talons give an additional attack.
No Doom of Malan'tai, Parasite and Mycetic Spores.
Regeneration gives IWND.
Catalyst gives +1 to FNP and IWND.
Venom Cannon is S9 ap4 2 shots.
Deathspitter is back to being a blast.
Barbed Strangler is st6 ap5 and must take a S test or take d6 st4 ap3 hits.
Stranglethorn Cannon is the same but S8 and pinning.
Acid, explosive and poison spore mines are back.
Any Prime unit can be HQ, this includes Warrior Prime, Trygon Prime and Old One Eye.
Only 1 Psych Powers chart.
Carnifex:
120 points
Got a new page of upgrades.
2+ save for 15 points
1d3 Hammer of Wrath attacks
Can attack the occupants of a transport after destroying it in CC.
Harpy:
140 points
Fast Attack unit
WS 4 BS 3 S 7 T 5 W 4 I 5 A 3 LD 8 sv 4+
Sonic Shriek is when it flies over unit.
Also carries spore mines
Born in the Skies: Can't be grounded
Crone:
170 points
Fast Attack unit
WS 3 BS 3 S 8 T 5 W 5 I 5 A 3 LD 8 sv 3+
4 S7 ap2 shoots or 1 S7 ap2 large blast
Missiles
Born in the Skies: Can't be grounded
"Haruspex":
Elite unit
"Magna Graple" attack
WS 4 BS 3 S 8(or 9, he wasn't sure) T 6 W 5 I 4 A 5 LD 8 sv 3+
"Exocrine":
Heavy Support unit
3 S10 ap3 shoots or 1 S10 ap2 large blast ordnance
WS 4 BS 3 S 8(or 9, he wasn't sure) T 6 W 5 I 4 A 3 LD 8 sv 3+
Tyrannofex:
180 points
Rupture Cannon cost 20 points
Old One Eye:
300 points
It is an upgrade for a Carnifex brood, but it also can be an HQ option
4+ IWND
3+ FNP
2+ Save
Hive Tyrant:
160 points
BS4
Wings for 30 points
Mastery Level 2
Tervigon:
170 points
Mastery Level 2
Can take 1 of 3 upgrades for spawn: 4d6 spawn, or the no run out for doubles, or all gaunts (note that it includes Termas, Hormas and Gargoyles) benefit from Toxin sacs and Adrenal Glands
Also you can customize the spawn options for a cost, for example spawning hormagaunts or spinegaunts
Bio electric field: 6 S6 ap5 shoots or a 5++ invulnerable save
Trygon Prime:
Gaping Maw experimental biomorph: If half or more of the attacks hit, a random model in b2b takes an Initiative test, if fails it is removed from play. According to him it has no limitations, so it can eliminate a Riptide or anything else.
Mawlocs:
140 points
1d3 blast with the ignores cover rule for its attack from below
Tyrant Guard:
Broods of 1-5
Lots of options
Hive Guard:
New gun is Spike Cannon, S7 ap4 2 shoots with Skyfire, enemy must reroll successful grounding tests
Grants shrouded and defensive grenades in a 6" radius
And by the way, Pyrovores still suck.
Wow, he certainly remembered quite a lot! Don't mean to be rude, but a lot of this sounds like wishlisting. It also seems to contradict information that was taken from the (supposed)White Dwarf in several places. We'll know in a couple weeks though. My comments on the different units though-
Spoiler:
Venom Cannon is S9 ap4 2 shots. I certainly hope so- It may hit fewer models, but the blast was always so finicky for me. Hopefully it doesn't retain the -1 to Vehicles rule.
Harpy:
140 points
Fast Attack unit
WS 4 BS 3 S 7 T 5 W 4 I 5 A 3 LD 8 sv 4+
Sonic Shriek is when it flies over unit.
Also carries spore mines
Born in the Skies: Can't be grounded
Crone:
170 points
Fast Attack unit
WS 3 BS 3 S 8 T 5 W 5 I 5 A 3 LD 8 sv 3+
4 S7 ap2 shoots or 1 S7 ap2 large blast
Missiles
Born in the Skies: Can't be grounded
I just find it odd that their statlines aren't more similar. Shouldn't they at least have the same save?
Old One Eye:
300 points
It is an upgrade for a Carnifex brood, but it also can be an HQ option
4+ IWND
3+ FNP
2+ Save
This sounds ridiculous, even for 300 points. Not that I wouldn't mind seeing it.
Tervigon:
170 points
Mastery Level 2
Can take 1 of 3 upgrades for spawn: 4d6 spawn, or the no run out for doubles, or all gaunts (note that it includes Termas, Hormas and Gargoyles) benefit from Toxin sacs and Adrenal Glands
Also you can customize the spawn options for a cost, for example spawning hormagaunts or spinegaunts
This is the one I find the least believable. Spinegants or Spikegants, sure, but I wouldn't believe hormagaunts. Could have sworn that the 1 of 3 upgrades thing was bunked. Oh well, it was a random poster.
Oh well, feel free to rub it in my face if I'm wrong, but I seriously doubt these rumors.
Harpy vs crone -- I see no need to make a single harpy if those stats are true. This also makes sense as every dual kit that's come out so far stems to have 1 unit far superior to the other in them.
As to the rumor pertaining to the FOC and fortifications -- totally makes sense actually. Removing allies is fluffy, giving nids the additional FOC slots allies provide is fair to the game. Removing access to fortifications fits with the army as well, and is probably another offset to the extra slots. 3 flyrants and 4 crones....who needs a quad gun anyhow???
I don't know how this one customer would have been given access to read through the codex enough time to make note of all that info (and thats a lot of info) and there is plenty of stuff missing, like why take note of stuff like Hormagaunts and Mawloc's point cost but ignore costs for Haruspex and Exocrine...
SHUPPET wrote: I don't know how this one customer would have been given access to read through the codex enough time to make note of all that info (and thats a lot of info) and there is plenty of stuff missing, like why take note of stuff like Hormagaunts and Mawloc's point cost but ignore costs for Haruspex and Exocrine...
It's the storm of bs approach. Make up enough stuff and something will stick.
SHUPPET wrote: I don't know how this one customer would have been given access to read through the codex enough time to make note of all that info (and thats a lot of info) and there is plenty of stuff missing, like why take note of stuff like Hormagaunts and Mawloc's point cost but ignore costs for Haruspex and Exocrine...
It's the storm of bs approach. Make up enough stuff and something will stick.
I'm beginning to feel this way. It's so annoying that everyone just makes up whatever, and why? To get our hopes up for no reason? To annoy people be flooding up legit threads with fake info? To get 5 mins to eat the tiniest slice of the internet fame pie? Some combination of all 3?
It's always possible I might eat my words on this one, but goddamn, every game I play I still have to constantly check stats of a bunch of stuff in my codex, but that guy can make a mental note of basically the entire dex, new special rules, statlines, point costs, and then waits 6 weeks for extra challenge points before writing up and positing the information?
95% of that is going to be basura and the 5% that is on point will just be by chance.
SHUPPET wrote: I don't know how this one customer would have been given access to read through the codex enough time to make note of all that info (and thats a lot of info) and there is plenty of stuff missing, like why take note of stuff like Hormagaunts and Mawloc's point cost but ignore costs for Haruspex and Exocrine...
It's the storm of bs approach. Make up enough stuff and something will stick.
Pretty much. This seems like he just took a lot of the info that was available via the WD, and just added his own spin to it. Missing some critical things that had been revealed in the WD, such as the number of shots the Exocrine gets, and their strength. There is also some conflict with what Endobai said, such as blinding venom on Gargoyles.
I do see some of those things happening. I can see the Harpy and Crone being ungroundable, for instance. I even posted that thought earlier in the thread.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I really don't Old One Eye to become the "default" Carnifex. He's the worst offender of the "Tyranids shouldn't have special characters" line of thinking, because he is a one-off creature created by circumstance, not something the Hive Mind did.
Even his name is stupid.
And it always reminds me of the 3rd Ed Carnifex model and what a travesty it was.
Where does it say he was not something the hive mind did?
H.B.M.C. wrote: Old One Eye is a single Tyranid creature found frozen in the ice of Calth long after the first Tyrannic War. He's just a very tough Carnifex.
I know.
I asked where it said that he was not something the hive mind specifically created as per your assertion above?
A very tough and pissed of Carnifex. He may have been a bit of a prototype, as the last bit of his Codex (fluff page) entry states that many very similar Canifex have been sighted in, around, and beyond the Calth system.
Not an elegant explanation sure, but it works well enough to have it not be as bad as most other named characters.
"Rumors persist that creatures matching Old One Eye's description have been seen plaguing planets across Ultramar and beyond"
Seems more likely that it was a prototype which was not standardized for whatever reason.
Why don't people like the "prototype" characters in the codex? I personally think they match the fluff pretty well. They all seemed to be made specifically for the battles that they fought in?
I even agree with explaining it in a way that argues whilst all are created equal some of the creatures will be better than others and/or better suited on the certain worlds they were created to destroy. Even twins are naturally different in many ways...
I'm guessing Old One Eye would get synapse then? Not too excited about the swarm box. Some of the other stuff looks interesting enough. I wonder what changes are in store for the biovores...
To be fair, this section of the forum is called "News & RUMOURS"... theres going to be a lot of false stuff posted here for people to fantasize over... Doesn't make the people behind the made up info any better than the lowlife scum of the internet that they are...
Swarm box is pretty pants. Great value for money but from the 'will I use these models?' perspective then it's probably not worth it for me. Depends what the rules for the smaller gribblies look like when they hit us I guess. I'm still clinging to the hope that I can viably field Genestealers, Broodlords, Fexes, Crones and Swarmy and just nom stuff with big scary creatures.
@Tyran - Yeah I would love for so much of that to be true, unfortunately though it does conflict with a lot of what was gleaned from the White Dwarf, which leads me to believe that a lot (or all) of it is bogus. No offence!
With White Dwarf being released a week from tomorrow (here in Australia at least) I can definitely see the full codex being leaked in about a week and a half. Sometimes we do get it before the White Dwarf, but it is very rare. I'm not going to trust any rules rumours until that point personally, just my experience with the rest of 6th Edition!
the shrouded lord wrote:Parasite sure as hell better still be there or I'l be pissed. Also, have we heard anything special about trygons? (no not teurons silly auto-correct.)
Pretty sure you will be pissed...
Though I don't know why: you probably made him out of bits you already had. It's not like GW sold you a model and then removed him from the book.
H.B.M.C. wrote:I really don't Old One Eye to become the "default" Carnifex. He's the worst offender of the "Tyranids shouldn't have special characters" line of thinking, because he is a one-off creature created by circumstance, not something the Hive Mind did.
Even his name is stupid.
And it always reminds me of the 3rd Ed Carnifex model and what a travesty it was.
His name is stupid. It's the name name Ghazgkhull calls Yarrick. It has no place on a Tyranid beast. I really hate Tyranid special characters as a concept anyway. I prefer the completely anonymous hive fleet.
Plus, you are doubly correct about the 3rd ed, smiley rhinoceros with stork legs Carnifex.
Everything is synonymous with penis. Plenty of guys like to boast about the size of their "Parasite of Mortrex", their "Hive Tyrant", their "Land Raider", or their "Exterminatus".
As for the stats, more salt than the Black Sea. Something some guy heard two months ago is a bit curious. I'm thinking that you or your friend may have been lied to, Tyran, or possibly were victim to a hoax (they run wild this close to release).
xttz wrote: As everyone knows, the most reliable source of rumours is 'some guy on Vassal'.
Should have asked him if his uncle worked at Nintendo, and how to get the Triforce in OOT.
It just so happens that I met a guy at vassal who told me that he worked for nintendo and GW and also that Tyranids will be getting the Triforce as a biomorph.
xttz wrote: As everyone knows, the most reliable source of rumours is 'some guy on Vassal'.
Should have asked him if his uncle worked at Nintendo, and how to get the Triforce in OOT.
It just so happens that I met a guy at vassal who told me that he worked for nintendo and GW and also that Tyranids will be getting the Triforce as a biomorph.
