But how about Mawloc and Burrow - can you choose to return by deepstrike when you enter Ongoing Reserves? The entry in the codex says 'when arriving from Deep Strike Reserve.. Seems it's different from Ongoing Reserves.
the shrouded lord wrote: Hay, in current rules, does a tyrant guard have to be attached to a hive tyrant for the whole game. Or may they part ways.
They can only leave when the Tyrant dies, in which case they gain Rage and tear gak up.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Yikes. Just read the Tervigon page. Hive Mind powers or nothing. No moving/shooting for spawned Termagants. Doesn't sound fun.
Did you catch the best part... Synaptic Backlash was doubled
Yep, now this very expensive and key synapse unit will also kill any guants within it's synapse range when it dies.
While the nerfing hurts, and hurts bad, I almost understand it.
It's a Monstrous Creature. That's scoring. That generates MORE scoring units. In an edition where objectives are the win condition 5/6 of the time. The way it was being used in the 5th ed book under 6e rules was an abuse of the psychic powers system - was it a strong build? Of course it was, and that's why so many players flocked to a warp speed, crushing claws, smashing tervigon.
So like i said, I understand why the Tervigon was hit with a nerf bat - it was the carnifex of the edition. Now carnifexes look good again, and Tervigons are helpful (extra scoring, scoring MC, etc) but not auto-take (1 random hive mind power, synaptic backlash, takes 30 gants to make one a troop). I'm all for diversity in lists.
As an aside, i played a 500 point battleforce recon (solo) last night using the spanish army list. It was 25 termagants (15 fleshborer and 10 devourer) Deathleaper, 3 warriors, 2 hive guard, and 3 spore mines (that did nothing all game but only cost 15 pts). I vs'ed a space marine force of a chapter master on a bike (iron hands), 5 bikers, and a tac squad of 6 members.
Deathleaper got pwned by the burning blade in a single challenge of combat (s7 ap2 is no joke!) but sheer weight of fire from hive guard and termagants killed the chapter master through failed saves. Then the remaining bikes got swarmed and the hive guard and warriors picked off tactical marines until it was a table wipe. I was disheartened to see Deathleaper get punked so quickly, but given the chapter master cost 250 points to his 130 it should have been expected. My first impression was the swarmy elements worked as intended, hive guard were okay (not great though) at bs3 -ignoring cover will come in handy vs...stealth suits and conceal guardians, and jinking skimmers too i suppose.
But how about Mawloc and Burrow - can you choose to return by deepstrike when you enter Ongoing Reserves? The entry in the codex says 'when arriving from Deep Strike Reserve.. Seems it's different from Ongoing Reserves.
Ongoing reserves means you come on automatically without a roll on the next movement phase. It's what happens when you deep strike mishap and roll "delayed", as well as when a flyer leaves combat airspace. Just because it's ongoing doesnt' mean you can't arrive in a fashion of which your unit is capable.
I get that. It's not good, the nerf bat probably swung WAY too hard on the tervigon. But it wasn't unexpected, knowing GW's business practices.
Look at it this way - tervigons were SO popular that nobody built the joke that was the Tryannofex. Now that the T-fex is the only 2+ save in the book aside from a random Ymgarl Factor, and 75 points cheaper (base), players who glued all their egg sacs onto their 3-5 tervigons will have to buy 1-3 new Tyranofex kits! $$ Game$ Work$hop.
Listen I'm upset too but not overly so. I'll make the codex work, i love playing Tyranids. What other choice do we have other than switching armies?
Like others have stated, i'm kinda glad it's not tau-good. Fewer bandwagoners to deal with.
ruminator wrote: Now I can't read any Spanish, but from those codex prints there appear to be no min-max numbers of units in the squads, or is it shown in word rather than number form?
It seems I will need that supplement where carnifex become elites as 9 biovores on a skyshield still seems a pretty good deal to me.
It's in word form. "May include up to X additional Ys.... +Z ptz/model
There's a difference between toning a unit down and making it a liability. Synapse is now more important than ever for Nids, with most options being expensive and rarely durable. Now you get triple-punished for losing a Terivgon:
a) Loss of Fearless
b) Instinctive behaviour, potentially resulting in units damaging themselves
c) A sudden 24" diameter of key troop units gets decimated
What other armies receive so many blows for losing a key unit? Surely the death of such a key unit should be punishment in itself?
Thimn wrote: There is a difference between best and a serious downgrade from the previous book.
I agree! But being a Tyranid player, I'm having trouble seeing how this codex is a downgrade without playing a single match with it. I really don't see the point in being so cynical without a single play-test.
That being said I'm super excited to use Carnifexes again!
Will 5-6X10 naked Termagants be the new core of Troop choices, to free up points and go for all out aggressiveness? Like the minimum Spinegaunts you took in 4th ed?
Because atm I'm not sure I want a single Tervigon with 30 Gant-tax in my lists.
But how about Mawloc and Burrow - can you choose to return by deepstrike when you enter Ongoing Reserves? The entry in the codex says 'when arriving from Deep Strike Reserve.. Seems it's different from Ongoing Reserves.
tetrisphreak wrote: Ongoing reserves means you come on automatically without a roll on the next movement phase. It's what happens when you deep strike mishap and roll "delayed", as well as when a flyer leaves combat airspace. Just because it's ongoing doesnt' mean you can't arrive in a fashion of which your unit is capable.
That becomes a problem on turn 5 or later. But you have a couple turns there for which half your mishaps will probably be a benefit.
Especially considering its cheap price, if I was going to run a Mawloc I'd view it as somewhat disposable and play it very aggressively. I'd seek out hard stuff and go for the double hit, and then hope for ongoing reserves so I could rinse and repeat the very next turn.
N.I.B. wrote: Will 5-6X10 naked Termagants be the new core of Troop choices, to free up points and go for all out aggressiveness? Like the minimum Spinegaunts you took in 4th ed?
Because atm I'm not sure I want a single Tervigon with 30 Gant-tax in my lists.
I don't know.
I'll say this - fielding a unit of 25 gants last night (with mixed wargear) felt weird. And fresh. I almost felt like an ork player. There is a benefit to a large squad of termagants, in that it's hard to kill 30 fearless models in a single shooting phase - it makes them less likely a target for first blood.
Now is the part where we try to break the game -- Has anybody considered putting a single venomthrope in a bastion? an AV14 LOS blocking structure that has a 5+ cover save, and grants shrouded to any tyranid unit within 6" of the building (for a 2+cover if you're behidn the building itself), placed forward-midfield to advance behind for your hive guard, and until an FAQ nerfs it, the venomthrope can even shoot the quad gun on top from inside.... (Stronghold Assault update to building rules).
xttz wrote: There's a difference between toning a unit down and making it a liability. Synapse is now more important than ever for Nids, with most options being expensive and rarely durable. Now you get triple-punished for losing a Terivgon:
a) Loss of Fearless
b) Instinctive behaviour, potentially resulting in units damaging themselves
c) A sudden 24" diameter of key troop units gets decimated
What other armies receive so many blows for losing a key unit? Surely the death of such a key unit should be punishment in itself?
Nid players need to magnetize. Watch a video, pay the 15 cents per magnet, spend the 10 minutes it takes to apply the technique. Not only will you avoid being screwed when the edition/new codex flips everything upside down, but you'll enjoy the flexibility in the meanwhile and have an easier time transporting too. I would be pissed to be sitting on 3-5 tervigons now.
DarkStarSabre wrote: But as already mentioned...for the same cost Adrenal Glands do the job better. Seriously. Fleet. Fleeting Carnifexes.
yeah exactly... people are vastly under esimating how much stuff has fleet now... hordes of hormagaunts and fexes and flying MC's that all charge turn 3 if not turn 2?
DarkStarSabre wrote: But as already mentioned...for the same cost Adrenal Glands do the job better. Seriously. Fleet. Fleeting Carnifexes.
I think some people will need to see it on the tabletop -- AND what can happen when you throw Onslaught into the mix -- to understand.
Onslaught is now 24 inches which is awesome but now you can't pick it and have to go psychic horde to get a good chance of getting it.
Like I said earlier though, double flyrants could still be good, they are ML2, that means 4 rolls for one to get catalyst meaning both get FNP if they stay within 12 of each other.
HQ Choices Hive Tyrant: -5 PPM; +1BS; Loses BRB powers; lost 2+ armor save option; loses starting Lashwhip/Bonesword (this upgrade now costs 20 points I think)
SwarmLord: +5 PPM; +1BS; +1 Mastery Level -1 psychic power; Loses BRB Powers; no longer forces rerolls of successful ++ saves
Tervigon: +35 PPM; +1 I; -2 Powers; Loses BRB Powers; no longer shares AG/TS; kills larger area of gaunts; spawns gaunts no longer move or charge
Tyranid Prime: +45 PPM
Deathleaper: now HQ from Elites; -10 PPM; gain Infiltrate; Fleshhooks lose Rending
Old One Eye: now HQ from HS; -40 PPM; +1I
Elite Choices Hive Guard: +5 PPM; -1BS
Lictor: -15 PPM; gain Infiltrate
Pyrovore: -5 PPM; +1W, I, A; No more Spores
Venomthrope: -10 PPM; Gains Shroud instead of default 5+c save; No more Spores
Zoanthrope: -10 PPM; Mastery Level 2; Loses BRB powers; No more Spores; Now Brotherhood of Psykers (not sure if this is a gain or loss, honestly; makes the whole unit very "all or nothing")
Troop Choices Tyranid Warriors: +/- 0 PPM; No more Spores
Genestealers: +/- 0 PPM; No more Spores
--Broodlord: +/- 0 PPM; Single default power (positive or negative is up for debate I suppose)
Termagants: -1 PPM; can mix weapon types within a unit; No more Spores; cost of TS/AG increased
Hormagaunts: -1 PPM; No more Spores; STs no longer reroll 1s/misses; cost of TS/AG increased
Ripper Swarms: +3 PPM; No longer guaranteed self destruct out of Synapse
Fast Attack Shrikes: +/- 0 PPM
Harpy: -25 PPM; +1W, A
Gargoyles: +/- 0 PPM
Sky Slasher Swarms: +3 PPM
Raveners: +/- 0 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWsSTs no longer reroll 1s/misses
Spore Mine Clusters: -5 PPM
Heavy Support Carnifex: -40 PPM, +1I; -1A; No more Spores
Biovore: -5 PPM; +1W, I, A
Trygon: -10 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWs; STs no longer reroll 1s/misses
Trygon Prime: -10 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWs; STs no longer reroll 1s/misses
Mawloc: -30 PPM; better From Below rule
Tyranofex: -75! PPM; +1I
Biomorphs -General-
Adrenal Glands: Grants Fleet along with Furious Charge
Toxin Sacs: No changes
Regeneration: Regain a wound on a 4+ instead of 6(I believe?)
-Melee-
Scything Talons: Grants extra attack with another CC biomorph; AP6 (lolz); No longer reroll 1s/misses
Rending Claws: Grants extra attack with another CC biomorph; AP5
Crushing Claws: Grants extra attack with another CC biomorph; No longer forces I1 for MCs; S+1; Armorbane; AP2 for non MCs; Lost D3 bonus attacks
-Ranged-
Devourer: No longer causes -1 to Ld
edit 1: Updated Swarmlord to +1ML, -1 power known
edit 2: Updated for lack of Spores
edit 3: Points adjustments and effects of some biomorphs.
Mawlocs will take care of any small MSU scoring units on the table pretty well. They also make using small power armoured elite units on foot even harder than before, since you can't really avoid getting whacked by three Mawlocs, and cover and jinks won't help.
That said, how are the lists people are building now going to kill the five Night Scythe crews or a similar amount of Wave Serpent teams? The two new Nid flyers are so laughably poor in comparison to the competitive flyers of the game that they aren't an answer to anything.
I think some of these new Tyranid lists can certainly fight with Tau, since Tau are on foot, so if you don't purchase air units that are only asking to get killed, and instead buy units capable of killing Riptides, you're going to make it a game. Just don't expect your Venomthrope to do anything. Eldar and Necrons on the other hand seem very far ahead due to their playstyles and due to the weaknesses and gaping holes in this codex.
The Shadow in the Warp drops an Eldar Warlock's LD to 5 so even with Grisly Trophies casting protect etc. is going to suck, but the range is only 12" and the Eldar deathstar is mobile to say the least. How many Shadows bubbles will the competitive lists even have? Finally, even if the Eldar unit fails half of its psychic tests in a given turn, can the Tyranids actually kill it? A Hive Tyrant is just going to get smacked around like a bastard step child.
Tyranids will fight aircrons with the same flying tyrants we did a week ago - they're still s6 assault 12, but now BS4 for 30 points cheaper apiece.
Crones get d3+1 auto hits at s8 ignores cover when they vector strike - the croissants don't ignore their (admittedly crappy) 4+ armor. We have better anti-air than before at lower cost, it just isn't Tau Empire Anti-Air that everyone is used to seeing at tournaments.
Swarmlord is +1 Mastery Level actually, he just generates one less power. So he can cast more often, but knows less. Also influences any Deny the Witch rolls.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Does anyone thing thanks to their big points reduction that throwing Regeneration on a Brood of 3 Dakka-Fexes is a good/viable idea?
I do actually. With movement phase shifting you can always move wounded carnifex models to the back of the brood, helping them stay on the table longer and actually attempt some of their 4+ regeneration rolls.
Speaking of regeneration, hey! You got some Necrons in my Tryanids!
No reason to take a single pair of Scytals on Fexen any more though. My Stranglethorn Cannon/Scytal Fexes will need to be redone into Devourer/Stranglethorn or Scytal/Crushing claw fexen.
tetrisphreak wrote: Tyranids will fight aircrons with the same flying tyrants we did a week ago - they're still s6 assault 12, but now BS4 for 30 points cheaper apiece.
Crones get d3+1 auto hits at s8 ignores cover when they vector strike - the croissants don't ignore their (admittedly crappy) 4+ armor. We have better anti-air than before at lower cost, it just isn't Tau Empire Anti-Air that everyone is used to seeing at tournaments.
It's not all doom and gloom. It's just...meh.
A week ago Tyranids weren't relevant. Noone who actually goes to tournaments cares how they used to fight Aircrons, because if you actually ended up playings vs. Tyranids you always ended up winning. That's why I should've formulated my question better. My point was, how are the new Tyranids going to succesfully deal with Aircrons and the other armies that I mentioned? So of course, if the methods haven't changed, it means the methods still blow, and Cruddy & Co failed to address these issues just like they failed to address the hundred other issues that have plagued certain units or armies for a decade.
gorgon wrote: Fortunately, I only have 2 Tervigons. And I don't think they're useless now, they just aren't no-brainers.
They're still absolutely the best Troops unit in the entire game.
So long as you don't rely on the troops units required to unlock them or that they produce.
Hmm, I'm leaning now more toward Warriors - since the meta has shifted to S7 multishots...and the cost is between 6 T6 wounds or 18 T4 wounds. Warriors may have the way forward here. I think I'm happy with my one Tervigon (no more stand in Hierodules as Tervigons either) as an alternative second HQ when the fancy takes me.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Does anyone thing thanks to their big points reduction that throwing Regeneration on a Brood of 3 Dakka-Fexes is a good/viable idea?
I do actually. With movement phase shifting you can always move wounded carnifex models to the back of the brood, helping them stay on the table longer and actually attempt some of their 4+ regeneration rolls.
Speaking of regeneration, hey! You got some Necrons in my Tryanids!
Since you can only regen 1 wound a turn I'm not sure how worth it that will be.
tetrisphreak wrote: No reason to take a single pair of Scytals on Fexen any more though. My Stranglethorn Cannon/Scytal Fexes will need to be redone into Devourer/Stranglethorn or Scytal/Crushing claw fexen.
Sadly, devourer arms are in short supply....hrmmm
One reason - they're the base item. If you want to cut down on points costs single scytals are fair enough. Means more broods of the buggers!
A week ago Tyranids weren't relevant. Noone who actually goes to tournaments cares how they used to fight Aircrons, because if you actually ended up playings vs. Tyranids you always ended up winning. That's why I should've formulated my question better. My point was, how are the new Tyranids going to succesfully deal with Aircrons and the other armies that I mentioned? So of course, if the methods haven't changed, it means the methods still blow, and Cruddy & Co failed to address these issues just like they failed to address the hundred other issues that have plagued certain units or armies for a decade.
Is this a joke? Tyranids were the best army in the game against aircrons a week ago, and still may be. Taudar are a problem, but Tyranids trump Necrons as hard as DEldar trump Tyranids.
Right now I'm thinking 3 Fexes and a Prime x2, a Tyrannofex, Tervigon, gants, couple Zoeys... 8 MCs pounding up the field. Could be fun. Have to see how it points out.
edit: Almost forgot the mandatory (for me) 2 Haruspexes.
A week ago Tyranids weren't relevant. Noone who actually goes to tournaments cares how they used to fight Aircrons, because if you actually ended up playings vs. Tyranids you always ended up winning. That's why I should've formulated my question better. My point was, how are the new Tyranids going to succesfully deal with Aircrons and the other armies that I mentioned? So of course, if the methods haven't changed, it means the methods still blow, and Cruddy & Co failed to address these issues just like they failed to address the hundred other issues that have plagued certain units or armies for a decade.
Is this a joke? Tyranids were the best army in the game against aircrons a week ago, and still may be. Taudar are a problem, but Tyranids trump Necrons as hard as DEldar trump Tyranids.
There's my problem - I really wonder how hard DE still counter 'nids. Looks like it'll be the same story as before - they'll shoot us down before we can cross the table. Now without drop pods and the same basic rules on all our existing units...
the shrouded lord wrote: Mawlocs.
At strength fething eight, and AP two, large blast (?) we're looking at killing a ten man tactical squad by not rolling any ones. don't kill one or two? Ok, place it a few inches next to the unit. You can now (I THINK) assault that unit, and OBLITERATE it with 4-5 attacks. I'm getting one on saturday.
Oh, let's not forget that the now cost less.
They're Strength 6 and you can't assault in the turn you entered by Deep Strike. Regardless, they're pretty good now, yes.
I have seen several misquotes on here, then they get repeated as gospel, just in the last few pages.
(like "this changed", "no, it didn't" .etc.).
For example, if you look at the scan of the IB page, on feed the result that give hits against your own unit is 1-3, not 1-2.
1-3 Eat your own unit.
4-5 Charge nearest enemy unit
6 - charge nearest enemy unit, gain rage.
(I am looking at a scan of the page right now, not a rumor compilation, not an anonymous post, etc.).
I am still looking for english scans of a few more pages, mainly the ones about universal rules (synapse, etc. this is to understand when to test, what exactly it means, etc.).
While many of the long term sore spots have not been addressed (stealers, t4 model survivability, etc.) a few have (tfexes, mawlocs, c-fexes) and I am confident we will find more than one or two decent builds.
However, the best news is somewhat bittersweet....
We don't have to worry about all the cheesy codex hoppers switching over to the nid dex and giving tyranid players a bad name....
Yes, DEldar will be tough but not as bad. Think about it, cheaper MCs help and more gants help, plus better shooting. Loss of biomancy also doesn't hurt as against them at all.
Swarmlord is +1 Mastery Level actually, he just generates one less power. So he can cast more often, but knows less. Also influences any Deny the Witch rolls.
Updated. Was thinking he was Mastery Level 4 for some reason, probably because he knew 4 powers.
Spoiler:
Please keep in mind the following information is basic, and doesn't account for all changes to special rules. I am basing this off the spanish pages posted earlier, and I don't actually speak or read spanish.
That said:
HQ Choices Hive Tyrant: -5 PPM; +1BS; Loses BRB powers; loses starting Lashwhip/Bonesword (this upgrade now costs 20 points I think)
SwarmLord: +5 PPM; +1BS; +1 Mastery Level -1 psychic power; Loses BRB Powers
Tervigon: +35 PPM; +1 I; -2 Powers; Loses BRB Powers; no longer shares AG/TS; kills larger area of gaunts
Tyranid Prime: +35 PPM
Deathleaper: now HQ from Elites; -10 PPM; gain Infiltrate; Fleshhooks lose Rending
Old One Eye: now HQ from HS; -40 PPM; +1I
Elite Choices Hive Guard: +5 PPM; -1BS
Lictor: -15 PPM; gain Infiltrate
Pyrovore: -5 PPM; +1W, I, A
Venomthrope: -10 PPM; Gains Shroud instead of default 5+c save
Zoanthrope: -10 PPM; Mastery Level 2; Loses BRB powers; Now Brotherhood of Psykers (not sure if this is a gain or loss, honestly; makes the whole unit very "all or nothing")
Troop Choices Tyranid Warriors: +/- 0 PPM
Genestealers: +/- 0 PPM
--Broodlord: +/- 0 PPM; Single default power (positive or negative is up for debate I suppose)
Termagants: -1 PPM
Hormagaunts: -1 PPM
Ripper Swarms: +3 PPM; No longer guaranteed self destruct out of Synapse
Fast Attack Shrikes: +/- 0 PPM
Harpy: -25 PPM; +1W, A
Gargoyles: +/- 0 PPM
Sky Slasher Swarms: +3 PPM
Raveners: +/- 0 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWs Spore Mine Clusters: -5 PPM
Heavy Support Carnifex: -40 PPM, +1I; -1A
Biovore: -5 PPM; +1W, I, A
Trygon: -10 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWs Trygon Prime: -10 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWs Mawloc: -30 PPM; better From Below rule
Tyranofex: -75! PPM; +1I
Let me know if I missed anything or something is wrong. Again, this doesn't account for changes to some special rules I couldn't understand, or things that would be on unit description pages.
There's my problem - I really wonder how hard DE still counter 'nids. Looks like it'll be the same story as before - they'll shoot us down before we can cross the table. Now without drop pods and the same basic rules on all our existing units...
Not necessarily... faster movement with army wide AG, shrouded via venomthropes, more FNP. We had no answers before.
Redemption wrote:Dunno. What would you rather have? 4 Regenerating Carnifexes, or 5 Non-regenerating fexes?
5 Fexes gain more benefit from FNP/Shrouded buffs, and do more damage. Plus you're rarely going to regen more than 2-3 wounds per game anyway. Especially if your opponent is able to kill entire Fexes in a single turn.
tetrisphreak wrote:No reason to take a single pair of Scytals on Fexen any more though.
Sure there is. Double ScyTals is free, then just add Adrenal Glands and your Fexes are hitting with five S10 AP2 attacks in addition to their free S9 HoW hits. Plus AG give you Fleet too.
Add Frag Spines to let them strike before power fists, and you have a melee unit that's solid against both infantry and vehicles.
Great do not only has G fething W killed off my FAVOURITE fething UNIT IN THE ENTIRE fething CODEX, NOT TO MENTION POSSIBLY IN THE ENTIRE fething GAME, My GIANT fething MONSTER THAT fething BURSTS OUT OF THE fething GROUND CAN'T fething SLASH IT'S CLAWS 'CAUSE IT' RESTING, WHAT, IS THE fething THING DIABETIC? feth!!!!!!!
yeah, I need decaf.
Sorry you all had to read that.
*grumbles something about parasite of mortrex and diabetes*
The real fun looking WTF unit is deathleaper. Real expensive special char in the HQ section that infiltrates far in advance of the swarm. Well over 100pts.
He has IB lurk so if your out of synapse and you fail an IB roll he has a 50% chance of breaking and fleeing from cover into the open on his way to the tyrnid board edge.
tetrisphreak wrote:No reason to take a single pair of Scytals on Fexen any more though.
Sure there is. Double ScyTals is free, then just add Adrenal Glands and your Fexes are hitting with five S10 AP2 attacks in addition to their free S9 HoW hits. Plus AG give you Fleet too.
Add Frag Spines to let them strike before power fists, and you have a melee unit that's solid against both infantry and vehicles.
tetrisphreak wrote:No reason to take a single pair of Scytals on Fexen any more though.
Sure there is. Double ScyTals is free, then just add Adrenal Glands and your Fexes are hitting with five S10 AP2 attacks in addition to their free S9 HoW hits. Plus AG give you Fleet too.
Add Frag Spines to let them strike before power fists, and you have a melee unit that's solid against both infantry and vehicles.
So the good thing about taking a single set is?
Under the next Tyranid codex, Scything Talons will improve my Reading Comprehension by 1 point per pair :(
tetrisphreak wrote:No reason to take a single pair of Scytals on Fexen any more though.
Sure there is. Double ScyTals is free, then just add Adrenal Glands and your Fexes are hitting with five S10 AP2 attacks in addition to their free S9 HoW hits. Plus AG give you Fleet too.
Add Frag Spines to let them strike before power fists, and you have a melee unit that's solid against both infantry and vehicles.
So the good thing about taking a single set is?
An extra attack with rending claws and boneswords?
tetrisphreak wrote:No reason to take a single pair of Scytals on Fexen any more though.
Sure there is. Double ScyTals is free, then just add Adrenal Glands and your Fexes are hitting with five S10 AP2 attacks in addition to their free S9 HoW hits. Plus AG give you Fleet too.
Add Frag Spines to let them strike before power fists, and you have a melee unit that's solid against both infantry and vehicles.
So the good thing about taking a single set is?
An extra attack with rending claws and boneswords?
Do I need to bold/underline the "on Fexen" part too now?
tetrisphreak wrote:No reason to take a single pair of Scytals on Fexen any more though.
Sure there is. Double ScyTals is free, then just add Adrenal Glands and your Fexes are hitting with five S10 AP2 attacks in addition to their free S9 HoW hits. Plus AG give you Fleet too.
Add Frag Spines to let them strike before power fists, and you have a melee unit that's solid against both infantry and vehicles.
So the good thing about taking a single set is?
An extra attack with rending claws and boneswords?
Do I need to bold/underline the "on Fexen" part too now?
Well, your question didn't make sense in that context. So I thought it was a generalized new question.
A week ago Tyranids weren't relevant. Noone who actually goes to tournaments cares how they used to fight Aircrons, because if you actually ended up playings vs. Tyranids you always ended up winning. That's why I should've formulated my question better. My point was, how are the new Tyranids going to succesfully deal with Aircrons and the other armies that I mentioned? So of course, if the methods haven't changed, it means the methods still blow, and Cruddy & Co failed to address these issues just like they failed to address the hundred other issues that have plagued certain units or armies for a decade.
Is this a joke? Tyranids were the best army in the game against aircrons a week ago, and still may be. Taudar are a problem, but Tyranids trump Necrons as hard as DEldar trump Tyranids.
It's not a joke. Post a 1850p Tyranid list that deals with Crons (4 scythes, 18 wraiths, 3 barges), while atleast making the attempt of being a TAC list? If it's from the new codex all the better.
tetrisphreak wrote:No reason to take a single pair of Scytals on Fexen any more though.
Sure there is. Double ScyTals is free, then just add Adrenal Glands and your Fexes are hitting with five S10 AP2 attacks in addition to their free S9 HoW hits. Plus AG give you Fleet too.
Add Frag Spines to let them strike before power fists, and you have a melee unit that's solid against both infantry and vehicles.
So the good thing about taking a single set is?
An extra attack with rending claws and boneswords?
Do I need to bold/underline the "on Fexen" part too now?
Well, your question didn't make sense in that context. So I thought it was a generalized new question.
A: To get an extra attack on crushing claws?
Considering xttz had mentioned taking 2 on Fexes, I thought it was clear I was still talking about Fexes.
However, the judges will accept your answer of "extra attack with Crushing Claws". Of course, they'll also point out how sort of pointless Crushing Claws really are on Fexes, but they do still look cool at least.
Anyone else notice that we can nowrecreate the part of the lyanden invasion when eight carnifexes were sent to kill the avatar in a 1500 game?
AWESOME!
AesSedai wrote: Not necessarily... faster movement with army wide AG, shrouded via venomthropes, more FNP. We had no answers before.
The same ammount of FNP actually:
The psychic core of many 6th edition lists was 2 Tervigons w/ 3 powers, 2 flyrants, and a 3 man Zoanthrope Squad. So assuming you wanted to roll 100% Biomancy...
A 3 man Zoanthrope squads went from having 6 rolls on the biomancy chart to a single roll on the Nid Chart.
A Tervigon went from having 3 rolls on the biomancy to a single roll on the Nid Chart
The flyrant has stayed the same with 2 rolls each
5th Ed Codex: 13 rolls on Biomancy: Nets you roughly 2 Endurances = 2 FNP 6th Ed Codex: 7 rolls on Nids: Nets you roughly 1 Catalyst = 2 FNP
However, this assumes that the psychic core stays the same. Given the dramatic changes to both Zoes (only able to cast 1 buff/debuff a turn/unit vs up to 3) and Tervigons, the core may very well change, resulting in less rolls on the Nid Chart.
TyCorny wrote: The last legit leak I've seen was the 3 biomorphs pages. is there a new leak somewhere in the past 40 pages that prung up in the past couple days?
If you have questions, I can answer them. Just about everything is available on the web now in some form.
run 4+ canifexes, cheap as they come, and as many guants as pts will allow, make sure everything is fleet.
grats, you now will wil 80%+ of your games...
seriously the horde tactic, + the MC spam is going to be hugely competitive...
its not BROKEN competitive as some people seem to be hoping for, but its huge...
not many armies can deal with 100's of gribblies as well as 4+ fexes, and 100 guants= 400 pts, 5 fexes is about ~ 650 still plenty of room for filler to your taste,
sry if pts for fexe are off, looked at the page a bit ago, i remeber 130 pts per, correct me if I aw wrong
Traceoftoxin wrote: Tervigons are more of a liability now that they offer almost no force multiplication and cost an absurd amount of points.
I'm going to use one simply for the Dominion primaris. Not because it's any good, but because it's durable Synapse.
I mean - I'll try and roll for Catalyst but I don't expect to.
Traceoftoxin wrote: Tervigons are more of a liability now that they offer almost no force multiplication and cost an absurd amount of points.
I'm going to use one simply for the Dominion primaris. Not because it's any good, but because it's durable Synapse.
I mean - I'll try and roll for Catalyst but I don't expect to.
It's really not that durable though. Only if you park it way the hell back and try to do nothing but keep it alive. Then again, there's no point in doing anything BUT that with it now anyways. Definitely not worth having it try to push up the field... considering it's 12" explosion will devastate pretty much any termagant unit you wanted it to support anyways.
Dominion and defensive camping might be a use for a single Tervigon.
easysauce wrote: run 4+ canifexes, cheap as they come, and as many guants as pts will allow, make sure everything is fleet.
grats, you now will wil 80%+ of your games...
seriously the horde tactic, + the MC spam is going to be hugely competitive...
its not BROKEN competitive as some people seem to be hoping for, but its huge...
not many armies can deal with 100's of gribblies as well as 4+ fexes, and 100 guants= 400 pts, 5 fexes is about ~ 650 still plenty of room for filler to your taste,
sry if pts for fexe are off, looked at the page a bit ago, i remeber 130 pts per, correct me if I aw wrong
100 Fleet Termagants + 5 Fleet Carnifeci are 1375 points. And then you opponent just has to kill the small number of Synapse Creatures you have left room for in your list and watch your army collapse upon itself.
streamdragon wrote: Considering xttz had mentioned taking 2 on Fexes, I thought it was clear I was still talking about Fexes.
However, the judges will accept your answer of "extra attack with Crushing Claws". Of course, they'll also point out how sort of pointless Crushing Claws really are on Fexes, but they do still look cool at least.
For sure...I just hope Old One Eye kept his "Blood Talons" ability with his claws...I don't know if I've ever had a better moment than the time my One Eye Laid down the Law with Draigo with 10 S10 AP2 hits.
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the shrouded lord wrote: Anyone else notice that we can nowrecreate the part of the lyanden invasion when eight carnifexes were sent to kill the avatar in a 1500 game?
AWESOME!
Traceoftoxin wrote: Tervigons are more of a liability now that they offer almost no force multiplication and cost an absurd amount of points.
I'm going to use one simply for the Dominion primaris. Not because it's any good, but because it's durable Synapse.
I mean - I'll try and roll for Catalyst but I don't expect to.
Maybe that's why Dominion exists - so you can keep Termagants outside backlash range but within Synapse.
Currently the only decent use I can think of for a Tervigon is to have the Tyrant's Hive Commander ability Outflank it onto an enemy unit/objective.
I've heard the rumour that the haruspex can't take acid blood, but it seems it comes with is standard from the spanish scans. Can someone with the codex confirm please?
streamdragon wrote: Considering xttz had mentioned taking 2 on Fexes, I thought it was clear I was still talking about Fexes.
However, the judges will accept your answer of "extra attack with Crushing Claws". Of course, they'll also point out how sort of pointless Crushing Claws really are on Fexes, but they do still look cool at least.
For sure...I just hope Old One Eye kept his "Blood Talons" ability with his claws...I don't know if I've ever had a better moment than the time my One Eye Laid down the Law with Draigo with 10 S10 AP2 hits.
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the shrouded lord wrote: Anyone else notice that we can nowrecreate the part of the lyanden invasion when eight carnifexes were sent to kill the avatar in a 1500 game?
AWESOME!
Tyranids know naught of honor.
I wanna see how many of them the avatar kills. This makes me want to continue my eldar from the single squad I have.
AesSedai wrote: I've heard the rumour that the haruspex can't take acid blood, but it seems it comes with is standard from the spanish scans. Can someone with the codex confirm please?
100 Fleet Termagants + 5 Fleet Carnifeci are 1375 points. And then you opponent just has to kill the small number of Synapse Creatures you have left room for in your list and watch your army collapse upon itself.
You don't even need Fleet for the gants, just buy more!
Comes with 28 T6 wounds, 4 psychic rolls and some Shrouded.
Main drawback is low number of synapse units, but you can always swap some gants for more.
the shrouded lord wrote: ummm, fexes can still fire thorax swarm and their primary weapon, you guys realise that right?
or am I derping?
Yeh but they miss out on a round of cluster spines. And the cluster spines are almost on par with whatever thorax swarm they took. And they always want to be firing the Rupture Cannon.
So its a serious nerf to the larvae, but the T-Fex will carry on going. Just no rounds of blasting everything at once really.
I still wont bother with rupture cannon, but the tfex might work like a frontline bunker firing thorax and acid templates....
Rupture cannon is a decently costed buy...I think the problem is that most people are fooled by its 48" range.
I personally onslaught dual tyrannos with cannons and blast/run away until i am in assault/template range.
Even if you're blasting S10 into a vehicle at point blank range, at least then you can assault the contents.
And the great part is that even with the cannon on, you can choose to fire your other two templates instead anyways.
Most sensible thing I've seen you say in this thread. Rupture Cannon is definitely a well costed buy, its what makes him work. This is how you should play TFex, he's a threat at every range, getting up close just helps get rid those cover saves =D
And to the guy compiling the list of nerfs / buffs, you should probably add mycetic spores in red, right next to Zoanthrope, Carnifex, and Termagants.
Tervigons are essentually useless. Just because its scoring does not make it useful. They no longer support loads of gaunts. They are now nearly useless as psker support and hurt gaunts more than ever. All with a price increase. Just not worth it anymore.
Tyranid psykers have been neautered with the loss of access to anything but the codex powers. "Still hoping that will be fixed with faq as we would be the only codex with no access and psykers"
I predict a large number of FMC builds being used, supported by large broods of mixed gaunts and cheap fex builds.
100 Fleet Termagants + 5 Fleet Carnifeci are 1375 points. And then you opponent just has to kill the small number of Synapse Creatures you have left room for in your list and watch your army collapse upon itself.
You don't even need Fleet for the gants, just buy more!
And if your opponent can kill a walking tyrant and 4 zoans, they can sit back and watch the rest of your army eat itself or run away without taking casualties.
From what I'm seeing and hearing, this seems to be a case of the writers simply looking at the codex and changing a few things without any real playtesting. Maybe two games against a lackadaisical opponent, then they were like "yup, this works, sell it."
Backlash wrote: Tervigons are essentually useless. Just because its scoring does not make it useful. They no longer support loads of gaunts. They are now nearly useless as psker support and hurt gaunts more than ever. All with a price increase. Just not worth it anymore.
Tyranid psykers have been neautered with the loss of access to anything but the codex powers. "Still hoping that will be fixed with faq as we would be the only codex with no access and psykers"
I predict a large number of FMC builds being used, supported by large broods of mixed gaunts and cheap fex builds.
It's just not true. Tervigons were great before, now they're merely good. Lots of people might go down from 2 to 1, but they're well worth outflanking for instance, to sit on an objective - according to the rumours, the new Hive Commander doesn't add the reserve rolls bonus, but it allows you to outflank more troop units.
After all, without tervigons, the troops choice is hugely limited. Time to assemble more termagants I guess...
SHUPPET wrote: I don't get all the people saying they are going to try Warriors with this new release because their meta is all S7 no S8.
wtf does the new codex have to do with that? Has it freed your mind and allowed you to build new lists because there isn't a set monobuild yet?
Warriors are still just as bad as ever, if S8 blasts are non existant where you play you shoulda been done flooding Warriors by now :(
Tervigons are better than warriors in pretty much every way right now. In the next codex, it seems warriors close that gap a bit, through nerfs to the tervigon. Tyranids have gained options through everything good getting worse.
Was really stoked about the Venomthrope conferring Shrouded instead of a flat 5+. That's going to go a long way to protect hordes of guys and important monsters.
One problem is, that they changed how this Shrouded bubble is given out. It's on a model-by-model basis, if I read that correctly. So, it's only models with 6" of the Thrope, and not units. That makes it quite hard to keep hordes of guys protected with that cover save. Instead, it is probably mainly useful in protecting big monsters which it can easily keep within 6". This has the added benefits of blocking LOS and granting cover to the Venomthrope itself. I can hide an entire Thrope from view behind a Tervigon and it's belly.
I would describe this codex as the most blatant "here are new models, buy them" yet. Not that they're great models or rules or anything, but that GW needed to release a new codex to justify releasing new models.
They certainly didn't overhaul the army or anything, and most changes are lazy tidbits here and there. (With "here and there" being in mostly the wrong places, naturally.)
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rollawaythestone wrote: Was really stoked about the Venomthrope conferring Shrouded instead of a flat 5+. That's going to go a long way to protect hordes of guys and important monsters.
One problem is, that they changed how this Shrouded bubble is given out. It's on a model-by-model basis, if I read that correctly. So, it's only models with 6" of the Thrope, and not units. That makes it quite hard to keep hordes of guys protected with that cover save. Instead, it is probably mainly useful in protecting big monsters which it can easily keep within 6". This has the added benefits of blocking LOS and granting cover to the Venomthrope itself. I can hide an entire Thrope from view behind a Tervigon and it's belly.
As has been posted a few times, only one model in a unit needs to have Shrouded for the entire unit to benefit. Venomthropes are one of the only units that were nothing but upgraded.
rollawaythestone wrote: Was really stoked about the Venomthrope conferring Shrouded instead of a flat 5+. That's going to go a long way to protect hordes of guys and important monsters.
One problem is, that they changed how this Shrouded bubble is given out. It's on a model-by-model basis, if I read that correctly. So, it's only models with 6" of the Thrope, and not units. That makes it quite hard to keep hordes of guys protected with that cover save. Instead, it is probably mainly useful in protecting big monsters which it can easily keep within 6". This has the added benefits of blocking LOS and granting cover to the Venomthrope itself. I can hide an entire Thrope from view behind a Tervigon and it's belly.
SHUPPET wrote: I don't get all the people saying they are going to try Warriors with this new release because their meta is all S7 no S8.
wtf does the new codex have to do with that? Has it freed your mind and allowed you to build new lists because there isn't a set monobuild yet?
Warriors are still just as bad as ever, if S8 blasts are non existant where you play you shoulda been done flooding Warriors by now :(
Tervigons are better than warriors in pretty much every way right now. In the next codex, it seems warriors close that gap a bit, through nerfs to the tervigon. Tyranids have gained options through everything good getting worse.
How do you reckon Warriors closed the gap? They didn't change. The only changes to the Warriors were nerfs (more expensive, weaker Boneswords), or new CC options (Flesh Hooks, Fleet due to AG).
rollawaythestone wrote: Was really stoked about the Venomthrope conferring Shrouded instead of a flat 5+. That's going to go a long way to protect hordes of guys and important monsters.
One problem is, that they changed how this Shrouded bubble is given out. It's on a model-by-model basis, if I read that correctly. So, it's only models with 6" of the Thrope, and not units. That makes it quite hard to keep hordes of guys protected with that cover save. Instead, it is probably mainly useful in protecting big monsters which it can easily keep within 6". This has the added benefits of blocking LOS and granting cover to the Venomthrope itself. I can hide an entire Thrope from view behind a Tervigon and it's belly.
SHUPPET wrote: I don't get all the people saying they are going to try Warriors with this new release because their meta is all S7 no S8.
wtf does the new codex have to do with that? Has it freed your mind and allowed you to build new lists because there isn't a set monobuild yet?
Warriors are still just as bad as ever, if S8 blasts are non existant where you play you shoulda been done flooding Warriors by now :(
Tervigons are better than warriors in pretty much every way right now. In the next codex, it seems warriors close that gap a bit, through nerfs to the tervigon. Tyranids have gained options through everything good getting worse.
How do you reckon Warriors closed the gap? They didn't change. The only changes to the Warriors were nerfs (more expensive, weaker Boneswords), or new CC options (Flesh Hooks, Fleet due to AG).
Basically, warriors look better in comparison because Tervigons look worse than they did.
Backlash wrote: Tervigons are essentually useless. Just because its scoring does not make it useful. They no longer support loads of gaunts. They are now nearly useless as psker support and hurt gaunts more than ever. All with a price increase. Just not worth it anymore.
Tyranid psykers have been neautered with the loss of access to anything but the codex powers. "Still hoping that will be fixed with faq as we would be the only codex with no access and psykers"
I predict a large number of FMC builds being used, supported by large broods of mixed gaunts and cheap fex builds.
It's just not true. Tervigons were great before, now they're merely good. Lots of people might go down from 2 to 1, but they're well worth outflanking for instance, to sit on an objective - according to the rumours, the new Hive Commander doesn't add the reserve rolls bonus, but it allows you to outflank more troop units.
After all, without tervigons, the troops choice is hugely limited. Time to assemble more termagants I guess...
How are they remotely good? You're paying 200 pts for a unit that can't be used to support your army without risking blowing half of it up, and does practically nothing else. If they had kept it's support rules the same and increased the price it would've still be good.
Warriors can be viable when you crate target priority.
Who are you going to shoot at:
The Warrior Brood
The Carnifex Brood
The 1.8 Billion Gaunts that are now in your face because of the Tervigon(s).
rollawaythestone wrote: Was really stoked about the Venomthrope conferring Shrouded instead of a flat 5+. That's going to go a long way to protect hordes of guys and important monsters.
One problem is, that they changed how this Shrouded bubble is given out. It's on a model-by-model basis, if I read that correctly. So, it's only models with 6" of the Thrope, and not units. That makes it quite hard to keep hordes of guys protected with that cover save. Instead, it is probably mainly useful in protecting big monsters which it can easily keep within 6". This has the added benefits of blocking LOS and granting cover to the Venomthrope itself. I can hide an entire Thrope from view behind a Tervigon and it's belly.
Models within 6 inches get Shrouded, Shrouded is confered to a unit if 1 model in the unit has it, ergo, the unit has shrouded.
While not really needed, they should have just said units TBH.
Backlash wrote: Tervigons are essentually useless. Just because its scoring does not make it useful. They no longer support loads of gaunts. They are now nearly useless as psker support and hurt gaunts more than ever. All with a price increase. Just not worth it anymore.
Tyranid psykers have been neautered with the loss of access to anything but the codex powers. "Still hoping that will be fixed with faq as we would be the only codex with no access and psykers"
I predict a large number of FMC builds being used, supported by large broods of mixed gaunts and cheap fex builds.
It's just not true. Tervigons were great before, now they're merely good. Lots of people might go down from 2 to 1, but they're well worth outflanking for instance, to sit on an objective - according to the rumours, the new Hive Commander doesn't add the reserve rolls bonus, but it allows you to outflank more troop units.
After all, without tervigons, the troops choice is hugely limited. Time to assemble more termagants I guess...
How are they remotely good? You're paying 200 pts for a unit that can't be used to support your army without risking blowing half of it up, and does practically nothing else. If they had kept it's support rules the same and increased the price it would've still be good.
Technically speaking, it CAN still support your army. I don't think the backlash rule hurts non-Termagants, so throwing a Tervigon into a group of Fexes or whatever, they can still provide Synapse.
rollawaythestone wrote: Was really stoked about the Venomthrope conferring Shrouded instead of a flat 5+. That's going to go a long way to protect hordes of guys and important monsters.
One problem is, that they changed how this Shrouded bubble is given out. It's on a model-by-model basis, if I read that correctly. So, it's only models with 6" of the Thrope, and not units. That makes it quite hard to keep hordes of guys protected with that cover save. Instead, it is probably mainly useful in protecting big monsters which it can easily keep within 6". This has the added benefits of blocking LOS and granting cover to the Venomthrope itself. I can hide an entire Thrope from view behind a Tervigon and it's belly.
Shrouded works on the unit, if "one model has [The Shrouded" rule." So it can work on extended broods, and improve the cover saves your gribbles give your MCs.
streamdragon wrote: I would describe this codex as the most blatant "here are new models, buy them" yet. Not that they're great models or rules or anything, but that GW needed to release a new codex to justify releasing new models.
They certainly didn't overhaul the army or anything, and most changes are lazy tidbits here and there. (With "here and there" being in mostly the wrong places, naturally.)
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rollawaythestone wrote: Was really stoked about the Venomthrope conferring Shrouded instead of a flat 5+. That's going to go a long way to protect hordes of guys and important monsters.
One problem is, that they changed how this Shrouded bubble is given out. It's on a model-by-model basis, if I read that correctly. So, it's only models with 6" of the Thrope, and not units. That makes it quite hard to keep hordes of guys protected with that cover save. Instead, it is probably mainly useful in protecting big monsters which it can easily keep within 6". This has the added benefits of blocking LOS and granting cover to the Venomthrope itself. I can hide an entire Thrope from view behind a Tervigon and it's belly.
As has been posted a few times, only one model in a unit needs to have Shrouded for the entire unit to benefit. Venomthropes are one of the only units that were nothing but upgraded.
Which is basically what happened with the CSM codex. Then again, Kelly did write the Eldar codex too. Is Kelly or Cruddace writing the Tyranid codex this time?
SHUPPET wrote: I don't get all the people saying they are going to try Warriors with this new release because their meta is all S7 no S8.
wtf does the new codex have to do with that? Has it freed your mind and allowed you to build new lists because there isn't a set monobuild yet?
Warriors are still just as bad as ever, if S8 blasts are non existant where you play you shoulda been done flooding Warriors by now :(
Tervigons are better than warriors in pretty much every way right now. In the next codex, it seems warriors close that gap a bit, through nerfs to the tervigon. Tyranids have gained options through everything good getting worse.
How do you reckon Warriors closed the gap? They didn't change. The only changes to the Warriors were nerfs (more expensive, weaker Boneswords), or new CC options (Flesh Hooks, Fleet due to AG).
Basically, warriors look better in comparison because Tervigons look worse than they did.
Yeah, exactly. In bizarro world, I guess that counts as a buff?
rollawaythestone wrote: Was really stoked about the Venomthrope conferring Shrouded instead of a flat 5+. That's going to go a long way to protect hordes of guys and important monsters.
One problem is, that they changed how this Shrouded bubble is given out. It's on a model-by-model basis, if I read that correctly. So, it's only models with 6" of the Thrope, and not units. That makes it quite hard to keep hordes of guys protected with that cover save. Instead, it is probably mainly useful in protecting big monsters which it can easily keep within 6". This has the added benefits of blocking LOS and granting cover to the Venomthrope itself. I can hide an entire Thrope from view behind a Tervigon and it's belly.
One model with shrouded confers it to the entire unit.
rollawaythestone wrote: Was really stoked about the Venomthrope conferring Shrouded instead of a flat 5+. That's going to go a long way to protect hordes of guys and important monsters.
One problem is, that they changed how this Shrouded bubble is given out. It's on a model-by-model basis, if I read that correctly. So, it's only models with 6" of the Thrope, and not units. That makes it quite hard to keep hordes of guys protected with that cover save. Instead, it is probably mainly useful in protecting big monsters which it can easily keep within 6". This has the added benefits of blocking LOS and granting cover to the Venomthrope itself. I can hide an entire Thrope from view behind a Tervigon and it's belly.
Read the Shrouded rule. If a model in the unit has it, the unit benefits.
I'm still stoked to run my Tervigon with the new book. They are still solid monsters and they got a new weapon! I'm going to run mine with Dessicator Larvae so they can better protect their babies and objectives.
Warriors could be viable when you had other more pressing threats. Tervigons and the spawned gaunts did do this. But as they can no longer assault when spawned, we are left. With another unit that gets to sit and look stupid until they are blasted off the field
SHUPPET wrote: And to the guy compiling the list of nerfs / buffs, you should probably add mycetic spores in red, right next to Zoanthrope, Carnifex, and Termagants.
Update #2 completed. I added it to all relevant entires.
Deathleaper: now HQ from Elites; -10 PPM; gain Infiltrate; Fleshhooks lose Rending
Old One Eye: now HQ from HS; -40 PPM; +1I
Elite Choices Hive Guard: +5 PPM; -1BS
Lictor: -15 PPM; gain Infiltrate
Pyrovore: -5 PPM; +1W, I, A; No more Spores
Venomthrope: -10 PPM; Gains Shroud instead of default 5+c save; No more Spores
Zoanthrope: -10 PPM; Mastery Level 2; Loses BRB powers; No more Spores; Now Brotherhood of Psykers (not sure if this is a gain or loss, honestly; makes the whole unit very "all or nothing")
Troop Choices Tyranid Warriors: +/- 0 PPM; No more Spores
Genestealers: +/- 0 PPM; No more Spores
--Broodlord: +/- 0 PPM; Single default power (positive or negative is up for debate I suppose)
Termagants: -1 PPM; No more Spores
Hormagaunts: -1 PPM; No more Spores
Ripper Swarms: +3 PPM; No longer guaranteed self destruct out of Synapse
Fast Attack Shrikes: +/- 0 PPM
Harpy: -25 PPM; +1W, A
Gargoyles: +/- 0 PPM
Sky Slasher Swarms: +3 PPM
Raveners: +/- 0 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWs Spore Mine Clusters: -5 PPM
Heavy Support Carnifex: -40 PPM, +1I; -1A; No more Spores
Biovore: -5 PPM; +1W, I, A
Trygon: -10 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWs Trygon Prime: -10 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWs Mawloc: -30 PPM; better From Below rule
Tyranofex: -75! PPM; +1I
Let me know if I missed anything or something is wrong. Again, this doesn't account for changes to some special rules I couldn't understand, or things that would be on unit description pages.
edit 1: Updated Swarmlord to +1ML, -1 power known
edit 2: Updated for lack fo Spores
I guess you will all fall back to what Tyranids always should have been: target saturation.
The decrease point cost (apart from the obovius GW's policy "Buy moar modelzzz!") force you to take more models.
I guess that this fits nice with the whole Tyranid army concept.
Anpu42 wrote: Warriors can be viable when you crate target priority.
Who are you going to shoot at:
The Warrior Brood
The Carnifex Brood
The 1.8 Billion Gaunts that are now in your face because of the Tervigon(s).
But that might be my local Meta
I'm going to shoot my Lascannons at the Warriors, because while they could target the Carnifex Brood they'd not do as much damage, and they're total overkill against Gaunts.
It seems almost as if GW was more about applying nerfs. Then when it came to applying some improvements, scratched their heads at a loss and settled for a few minor point decreases and characteristic fiddling (that nonetheless does little to change the overall usefulness of the unit).
Is there anyone actually passionate about the Tyranids on the design team or are they "phoning it in"?
I remember. Five bases of ripper assault a paladin. Do nothing. The paladin does one wound.
A little while away, two more of my paladins kill the warriors the rippers are being synapsed by.
Me and my friend forget to do the ripper stuff, and keep playing. After four turns the paladin has taken a wound and the rippers are still five bases. We remember synapse. ALL of the rippers die. We imagine the paladin one second stabbing rippers and then them all suddenly falling over and the paladin scratching his head.
BTW: that same paladin later killed a tyranofex, hive tyrant, and took three wounds off a carnifex before my other two arrived and finished it off.
*sigh*. Tomorrow I might be having my last game of fifth edition. It'll be the parasite's last battle. There will be tears, mainly from the cultists getting eaten.
*sigh*
the shrouded lord wrote: I remember. Five bases of ripper assault a paladin. Do nothing. The paladin does one wound.
A little while away, two more of my paladins kill the warriors the rippers are being synapsed by.
Me and my friend forget to do the ripper stuff, and keep playing. After four turns the paladin has taken a wound and the rippers are still five bases. We remember synapse. ALL of the rippers die. We imagine the paladin one second stabbing rippers and then them all suddenly falling over and the paladin scratching his head.
BTW: that same paladin later killed a tyranofex, hive tyrant, and took three wounds off a carnifex before my other two arrived and finished it off.
*sigh*. Tomorrow I might be having my last game of fifth edition. It'll be the parasite's last battle. There will be tears, mainly from the cultists getting eaten.
*sigh*
They don't test for IB because they are in CC and therefore don't arbitrarily explode.
Anpu42 wrote: Warriors can be viable when you crate target priority. Who are you going to shoot at: The Warrior Brood The Carnifex Brood The 1.8 Billion Gaunts that are now in your face because of the Tervigon(s).
But that might be my local Meta
You are going to shoot the S8 at the warriors because its gauranteed to wipe the most points off the field, the fact that they are scoring is just a bonus. That is assuming single shot weapons, when it comes to blasts its not even a choice. There is no point to taking this unit if you know you will encounter S8, Its meant to be a bulky scorer ala marines or even deathwing, as far as 9 man squad goes if you want anti-infantry damage you get 60 gants 20 with devourers for the same price, that is putting out 100 S4 shots its not even a comparison to what Warriors can do. But there is no point to paying all those points to be tankier than a termagant squad if it turns out your opponent is actually getting 3 models for the price of 1, and you have 51 less models on the field. Sure, thats not entirely accurate as nobody is firing Heavy Weapons at a Gant squad, but thats because they don't open up the opportunity for it to be worthwhile. Target saturation works in theory, and yeah your Fexes or whatever might avoid a few shots which might let them rampage a bit harder, but when your opponent finishes his second turn and you are suddenly left with no scoring units, your MC's are still trundling forward, and your army is 500 points smaller because you took 2x 7 man squads of Warriors as your troop choices, the target priority seems stupidly clear and you'll be back in this thread just as annoyed if not more so than the rest of us, that our useless troop choice, who would be so easy to balance, has been given 5 minutes of attention with this new dex, simply to add extra costs to some of its upgrades, as if it was overpowered in the last edition or something. You would be better off just spending that 500 points on 4 more carnifexes, they will soak up far more heavy weapon shots than a warrior squad. The pricing is ridiculous for it to have such a weakness to instadeath.
Anpu42 wrote: Warriors can be viable when you crate target priority.
Who are you going to shoot at:
The Warrior Brood
The Carnifex Brood
The 1.8 Billion Gaunts that are now in your face because of the Tervigon(s).
But that might be my local Meta
You are going to shoot the S8 at the warriors because its gauranteed to wipe the most points off the field, the fact that they are scoring is just a bonus. That is assuming single shot weapons, when it comes to blasts its not even a choice. There is no point to taking this unit if you know you will encounter S8, Its meant to be a bulky scorer ala marines or even deathwing, as far as 9 man squad goes if you want anti-infantry damage you get 60 gants 20 with devourers for the same price, that is putting out 100 S4 shots its not even a comparison to what Warriors can do. But there is no point to paying all those points to be tankier than a termagant squad if it turns out your opponent is actually getting 3 models for the price of 1, and you have 51 less models on the field. Sure, thats not entirely accurate as nobody is firing Heavy Weapons at a Gant squad, but thats because they don't open up the opportunity for it to be worthwhile. Target saturation works in theory, and yeah your Fexes or whatever might avoid a few shots which might let them rampage a bit harder, but when your opponent finishes his second turn and you are suddenly left with no scoring units, your MC's are still trundling forward, and your army is 500 points smaller because you took 2x 7 man squads of Warriors as your troop choices, the target priority seems stupidly clear and you'll be back in this thread just as annoyed if not more so than the rest of us, that our useless troop choice, who would be so easy to balance, has been given 5 minutes of attention with this new dex, simply to add extra costs to some of its upgrades, as if it was overpowered in the last edition or something. You would be better off just spending that 500 points on 4 more carnifexes, they will soak up far more heavy weapon shots than a warrior squad. The pricing is ridiculous for it to have such a weakness to instadeath.
Like I did say it might be the local Meta to, I run alot of Plasma with the occasoinal Missile Launcher and Las Cannon. Even with my Long Fangs I don't have Missle Launcher SPAM. Most of my shots were usaly wasted on that mother ing DoM. The Nit player could not fail his Inv Save to save my life.
Thing may change now, we will have to see.
I'm trying to justify weather getting the swarm box is necessary or not. I have around 55 termagants 20-30 hormagaunts, maybe 25 geanstealers and three carnifexes. so far I've never needed the hormies minus needing a termie proxy or two, and only have the 3 fexes because I found a deal and gambled for this edition.
basically my question is weather the hormagaunts and genestealers are going to be useful enough that they'll actually be used to the point of me needing more than I have now
I can't (well I can) believe that anyone is saying they're going to use tervigons.
They went UP in points, lost biomancy, lost additional powers, can't pick said powers, lost the ability to give gaunts poisoned/furious charge, apparently the gaunts cant move when they come into play..
There is absolutely no buff at all, how can one be excited to use them?
Disturb3d wrote: I'm looking forward to attatching OOE to a unit of dakkafexes with regen. The Carnistar.... Yeah.
OOE isn't an IC and so can't join the Carnis.
My bad I saw personaje and unico on the spanish sheets and just started thinking. Does that mean the prime can't either then? He's listed the same way. Except he isn't unique. Just being hopeful lol.
Tervigons got the nerf-hammer, no doubt. But psychologically, I was at least prepared for it as I (any many others) fully expected their effectiveness to be reduced. This makes the nerf at least palatable, whereas other changes to the Codex sting much more because they weren't expected.
Kirasu wrote: I can't (well I can) believe that anyone is saying they're going to use tervigons.
They went UP in points, lost biomancy, lost additional powers, can't pick said powers, lost the ability to give gaunts poisoned/furious charge, apparently the gaunts cant move when they come into play..
There is absolutely no buff at all, how can one be excited to use them?
'
You don't have to be excited about the changes to use them in a list, at the end of the day they are a scoring MC for 200 points that spawns free additional scoring units each turn. In case you haven't noticed there's not much to be excited about in the troop slot in general. Just because something got nerfed doesn't mean its automatically bad, they are still the second best option in the slot next to Termagants.
I must be an odd man out. I'm liking what I'm reading quite a bit. It's going to be a balance between bringing actually resilient and cover save dependent resilient but I think it's doable now.
Also Warriors have been solid for most of 6th as people transitioned away from missile launchers for rate of fire. Once that happened you could look at them as each one being 3x10pt models with St5/T4/4+ saves which is reasonable. The only kink is Tau Riptides as that's the only St8 Large Blast weapon seen regularly nowadays.
Honestly it's going to be the heavy support slot that hurts me. There is so much there. Elites are likely to simply be Venomthropes at this point with some people (like me) considering Lictors based on infiltrate and 50pt cost. My HQ is pretty locked in at Primes (which might explain the price hike) to ensure I can:
a) keep venomthropes alive
b) keep warriors alive
c) hide my synapse based on it's importance
My troops are likely to just consist of gant hordes of one type or another with maybe a warrior unit. I wasn't a huge fan of Tervigons before and the new rules seal that deal for me.
My fast attack are likely to consist solely of Gargoyles and Shrikes (and this is just a maybe on these).
The overall idea will be to put down approximately 24 T6 MC wounds supported by 100+ T3 infantry led by 2 Primes and including at least one unit (likely 2) of venomthropes.
I'm loving the whole thing about spawned units being unable to move the turn they pop, most ridiculous thing yet, what if you manage to spawn a bunch and effectively stop your tervigon from moving cause there's so many?
But hey, i guess it is extremely easy to explain fluff wise "when a newly spawned gant is spawned directly onto the field of battle, it is more like a little kitten due to all the flashing noises and bright colors surrounding it therefore confusing it, it has even been known for a trooper to walk over and stroke one, due to them being so docile and gentle
Nearly as ridiculous as a grounded harpy or crone, just imagine one, flapping about on the floor like a turtle stuck on it's back. A downed flyrant walking on it's scything talons that look like high heels I could tolerate cause it's hilarious in my eyes (seems like the norn queen is keeping up with fashion and likes to get her daughters all the best shoes) but a downed flapping crone is just a bit to much
Disturb3d wrote: I'm looking forward to attatching OOE to a unit of dakkafexes with regen. The Carnistar.... Yeah.
OOE isn't an IC and so can't join the Carnis.
My bad I saw personaje and unico on the spanish sheets and just started thinking. Does that mean the prime can't either then? He's listed the same way. Except he isn't unique. Just being hopeful lol.
Prime has IC added as a special rule further down the page.
rollawaythestone wrote: Tervigons got the nerf-hammer, no doubt. But psychologically, I was at least prepared for it as I (any many others) fully expected their effectiveness to be reduced. This makes the nerf at least palatable, whereas other changes to the Codex sting much more because they weren't expected.
Most were expecting a point increase, or some loss in playability, or a change in function like Broadsides...not a 20% point increase in addition to a loss of Biomancy, loss of 67% of its psychic power rolls, loss of 67% of the Brood Proginator Buffs, 100% increase in backlash range, and prohibition of newly spawned guants charging.
Disturb3d wrote: I'm looking forward to attatching OOE to a unit of dakkafexes with regen. The Carnistar.... Yeah.
OOE isn't an IC and so can't join the Carnis.
My bad I saw personaje and unico on the spanish sheets and just started thinking. Does that mean the prime can't either then? He's listed the same way. Except he isn't unique. Just being hopeful lol.
Prime has IC added as a special rule further down the page.
Hulksmash wrote: I must be an odd man out. I'm liking what I'm reading quite a bit. It's going to be a balance between bringing actually resilient and cover save dependent resilient but I think it's doable now.
Also Warriors have been solid for most of 6th as people transitioned away from missile launchers for rate of fire. Once that happened you could look at them as each one being 3x10pt models with St5/T4/4+ saves which is reasonable. The only kink is Tau Riptides as that's the only St8 Large Blast weapon seen regularly nowadays.
Honestly it's going to be the heavy support slot that hurts me. There is so much there. Elites are likely to simply be Venomthropes at this point with some people (like me) considering Lictors based on infiltrate and 50pt cost. My HQ is pretty locked in at Primes (which might explain the price hike) to ensure I can:
a) keep venomthropes alive
b) keep warriors alive
c) hide my synapse based on it's importance
My troops are likely to just consist of gant hordes of one type or another with maybe a warrior unit. I wasn't a huge fan of Tervigons before and the new rules seal that deal for me.
My fast attack are likely to consist solely of Gargoyles and Shrikes (and this is just a maybe on these).
The overall idea will be to put down approximately 24 T6 MC wounds supported by 100+ T3 infantry led by 2 Primes and including at least one unit (likely 2) of venomthropes.
I can definitely seeing 6 venomthropes becoming commonplace. Ignores cover is common enough to make 2-3 venomthropes irrelevant, but 2x3 with primes to tank will make them hard to get rid of and the rest of your army fairly durable. Although taking warriors may still be a poor decision, as 1/2 units of S8 with ignores cover can really mess them up in a hurry.
Primes might be a decent way to keep Venomthropes alive and provide synapse. You could do LoS shenanigans for wound allocation too.
Can they can any defensive upgrades aside from Regen and the Ymgarl factor?
I was expecting the worst with Tervigon's honestly. It doesn't surprise me it can't share buffs and the newly spawned Gants are limited. It does suck that they lost their psychic powers. But I was prepared for the worst - they could have only added Gants to already existent Gant squads, or something less useful like that.
Deathleaper: now HQ from Elites; -10 PPM; gain Infiltrate; Fleshhooks lose Rending
Old One Eye: now HQ from HS; -40 PPM; +1I
Elite Choices Hive Guard: +5 PPM; -1BS
Lictor: -15 PPM; gain Infiltrate
Pyrovore: -5 PPM; +1W, I, A; No more Spores
Venomthrope: -10 PPM; Gains Shroud instead of default 5+c save; No more Spores
Zoanthrope: -10 PPM; Mastery Level 2; Loses BRB powers; No more Spores; Now Brotherhood of Psykers (not sure if this is a gain or loss, honestly; makes the whole unit very "all or nothing")
Troop Choices Tyranid Warriors: +/- 0 PPM; No more Spores
Genestealers: +/- 0 PPM; No more Spores
--Broodlord: +/- 0 PPM; Single default power (positive or negative is up for debate I suppose)
Termagants: -1 PPM; No more Spores
Hormagaunts: -1 PPM; No more Spores
Ripper Swarms: +3 PPM; No longer guaranteed self destruct out of Synapse
Fast Attack Shrikes: +/- 0 PPM
Harpy: -25 PPM; +1W, A
Gargoyles: +/- 0 PPM
Sky Slasher Swarms: +3 PPM
Raveners: +/- 0 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWs Spore Mine Clusters: -5 PPM
Heavy Support Carnifex: -40 PPM, +1I; -1A; No more Spores
Biovore: -5 PPM; +1W, I, A
Trygon: -10 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWs Trygon Prime: -10 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWs Mawloc: -30 PPM; better From Below rule
Tyranofex: -75! PPM; +1I
Let me know if I missed anything or something is wrong. Again, this doesn't account for changes to some special rules I couldn't understand, or things that would be on unit description pages.
edit 1: Updated Swarmlord to +1ML, -1 power known
edit 2: Updated for lack fo Spores
Not to add on to the doom and gloom, but you should include that Warriors and Hormagaunts no longer re-roll 1's in combat. Trygons and Raveners no longer re-roll to hit.
The Tervigon's spawned gants can't move/charge.
The Swarmlord no longer forces you to re-roll successful invulnerable saves.
Gargoyle upgrades (TS and AG) went up to 2 points each.
And the Tyranid Prime went up by 45 points, not 35.
The last one is just weird to me. Such a massive increase in price for no real changes? Was the Tyranid Prime overpowered before?
You guys do realize that the spawning is now at the end of the movement phase right? So you are not really losing out on the movement as much......Just the assault, which lets be honest we all knew was gonna go away.
xttz wrote: Primes might be a decent way to keep Venomthropes alive and provide synapse. You could do LoS shenanigans for wound allocation too.
Can they can any defensive upgrades aside from Regen and the Ymgarl factor?
I've been playing Venoms through the years...personally...the best way to run them is solo and out of LoS...if you're opponent didn't kill it in turn 1...he's already done his job for the game.
Deathleaper: now HQ from Elites; -10 PPM; gain Infiltrate; Fleshhooks lose Rending
Old One Eye: now HQ from HS; -40 PPM; +1I
Elite Choices Hive Guard: +5 PPM; -1BS
Lictor: -15 PPM; gain Infiltrate
Pyrovore: -5 PPM; +1W, I, A; No more Spores
Venomthrope: -10 PPM; Gains Shroud instead of default 5+c save; No more Spores
Zoanthrope: -10 PPM; Mastery Level 2; Loses BRB powers; No more Spores; Now Brotherhood of Psykers (not sure if this is a gain or loss, honestly; makes the whole unit very "all or nothing")
Troop Choices Tyranid Warriors: +/- 0 PPM; No more Spores
Genestealers: +/- 0 PPM; No more Spores
--Broodlord: +/- 0 PPM; Single default power (positive or negative is up for debate I suppose)
Termagants: -1 PPM; No more Spores
Hormagaunts: -1 PPM; No more Spores
Ripper Swarms: +3 PPM; No longer guaranteed self destruct out of Synapse
Fast Attack Shrikes: +/- 0 PPM
Harpy: -25 PPM; +1W, A
Gargoyles: +/- 0 PPM
Sky Slasher Swarms: +3 PPM
Raveners: +/- 0 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWs Spore Mine Clusters: -5 PPM
Heavy Support Carnifex: -40 PPM, +1I; -1A; No more Spores
Biovore: -5 PPM; +1W, I, A
Trygon: -10 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWs Trygon Prime: -10 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWs Mawloc: -30 PPM; better From Below rule
Tyranofex: -75! PPM; +1I
Let me know if I missed anything or something is wrong. Again, this doesn't account for changes to some special rules I couldn't understand, or things that would be on unit description pages.
edit 1: Updated Swarmlord to +1ML, -1 power known
edit 2: Updated for lack fo Spores
Not to add on to the doom and gloom, but you should include that Warriors and Hormagaunts no longer re-roll 1's in combat. Trygons and Raveners no longer re-roll to hit.
The Tervigon's spawned gants can't move/charge.
The Swarmlord no longer forces you to re-roll successful invulnerable saves.
Gargoyle upgrades (TS and AG) went up to 2 points each.
And the Tyranid Prime went up by 45 points, not 35.
The last one is just weird to me. Such a massive increase in price for no real changes? Was the Tyranid Prime overpowered before?
I think he's only putting down the photo verified changes...
So anyone have more info on spore mine clusters? Did they retain orbital bombardment in it's current form? Are they still S4 AP4 large blasts? At -5ppm and the ability to direct them (and charge with them) they could absolutely wreck face to those 4+sv troops cowering behind defense lines.
Maelstrom808 wrote: So anyone have more info on spore mine clusters? Did they retain orbital bombardment in it's current form? Are they still S4 AP4 large blasts? At -5ppm and the ability to direct them (and charge with them) they could absolutely wreck face to those 4+sv troops cowering behind defense lines.
I would like to know this also. The only reason I have not used them is random spaffy movement.
Re the tervigon nerf, where more termagants die from the Brood Progenitor backlash within 12 inches if the brood mother dies.
DO we know the wording? Is it still on the unit/brood, or on the termagants? I'm clutching at straws, but if it's on the models, not the unit, there will be far fewer casualties.
Not to add on to the doom and gloom, but you should include that Warriors and Hormagaunts no longer re-roll 1's in combat. Trygons and Raveners no longer re-roll to hit.
The Tervigon's spawned gants can't move/charge.
The Swarmlord no longer forces you to re-roll successful invulnerable saves.
Gargoyle upgrades (TS and AG) went up to 2 points each.
And the Tyranid Prime went up by 45 points, not 35.
The last one is just weird to me. Such a massive increase in price for no real changes? Was the Tyranid Prime overpowered before?
Update #3 featuring this and PMed issues. Added section for biomorphs, but not much there as I can't read spanish and can't look for the english pages online.
Spoiler:
HQ Choices Hive Tyrant: -5 PPM; +1BS; Loses BRB powers; lost 2+ armor save option; loses starting Lashwhip/Bonesword (this upgrade now costs 20 points I think)
SwarmLord: +5 PPM; +1BS; +1 Mastery Level -1 psychic power; Loses BRB Powers; no longer forces rerolls of successful ++ saves
Tervigon: +35 PPM; +1 I; -2 Powers; Loses BRB Powers; no longer shares AG/TS; kills larger area of gaunts; spawns gaunts no longer move or charge
Tyranid Prime: +45 PPM
Deathleaper: now HQ from Elites; -10 PPM; gain Infiltrate; Fleshhooks lose Rending
Old One Eye: now HQ from HS; -40 PPM; +1I
Elite Choices Hive Guard: +5 PPM; -1BS
Lictor: -15 PPM; gain Infiltrate
Pyrovore: -5 PPM; +1W, I, A; No more Spores
Venomthrope: -10 PPM; Gains Shroud instead of default 5+c save; No more Spores
Zoanthrope: -10 PPM; Mastery Level 2; Loses BRB powers; No more Spores; Now Brotherhood of Psykers (not sure if this is a gain or loss, honestly; makes the whole unit very "all or nothing")
Troop Choices Tyranid Warriors: +/- 0 PPM; No more Spores
Genestealers: +/- 0 PPM; No more Spores
--Broodlord: +/- 0 PPM; Single default power (positive or negative is up for debate I suppose)
Termagants: -1 PPM; can mix weapon types within a unit; No more Spores; cost of TS/AG increased
Hormagaunts: -1 PPM; No more Spores; STs no longer reroll 1s/misses; cost of TS/AG increased
Ripper Swarms: +3 PPM; No longer guaranteed self destruct out of Synapse
Fast Attack Shrikes: +/- 0 PPM
Harpy: -25 PPM; +1W, A
Gargoyles: +/- 0 PPM
Sky Slasher Swarms: +3 PPM
Raveners: +/- 0 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWsSTs no longer reroll 1s/misses
Spore Mine Clusters: -5 PPM
Heavy Support Carnifex: -40 PPM, +1I; -1A; No more Spores
Biovore: -5 PPM; +1W, I, A
Trygon: -10 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWs; STs no longer reroll 1s/misses
Trygon Prime: -10 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWs; STs no longer reroll 1s/misses
Mawloc: -30 PPM; better From Below rule
Tyranofex: -75! PPM; +1I
Biomorphs -General-
Adrenal Glands: Grants Fleet along with Furious Charge
Toxin Sacs: No changes
Regeneration: Regain a wound on a 4+ instead of 6(I believe?)
-Melee-
Scything Talons: Grants extra attack with another CC biomorph; AP6 (lolz); No longer reroll 1s/misses
Rending Claws: Grants extra attack with another CC biomorph; AP5
Crushing Claws: Grants extra attack with another CC biomorph; No longer forces I1 for MCs; S+1; Armorbane; AP2 for non MCs; Lost D3 bonus attacks
-Ranged-
Devourer: No longer causes -1 to Ld
edit 1: Updated Swarmlord to +1ML, -1 power known
edit 2: Updated for lack of Spores
edit 3: Points adjustments and effects of some biomorphs.
Hulksmash wrote: I must be an odd man out. I'm liking what I'm reading quite a bit. It's going to be a balance between bringing actually resilient and cover save dependent resilient but I think it's doable now.
Also Warriors have been solid for most of 6th as people transitioned away from missile launchers for rate of fire. Once that happened you could look at them as each one being 3x10pt models with St5/T4/4+ saves which is reasonable. The only kink is Tau Riptides as that's the only St8 Large Blast weapon seen regularly nowadays.
Honestly it's going to be the heavy support slot that hurts me. There is so much there. Elites are likely to simply be Venomthropes at this point with some people (like me) considering Lictors based on infiltrate and 50pt cost. My HQ is pretty locked in at Primes (which might explain the price hike) to ensure I can:
a) keep venomthropes alive
b) keep warriors alive
c) hide my synapse based on it's importance
My troops are likely to just consist of gant hordes of one type or another with maybe a warrior unit. I wasn't a huge fan of Tervigons before and the new rules seal that deal for me.
My fast attack are likely to consist solely of Gargoyles and Shrikes (and this is just a maybe on these).
The overall idea will be to put down approximately 24 T6 MC wounds supported by 100+ T3 infantry led by 2 Primes and including at least one unit (likely 2) of venomthropes.
Hey Hulk,
Can you explain to me how Primes will do A and B, and if C is because you're joining them to a unit of warriors, or just hiding them out of LOS?
tetrisphreak wrote: Tyranids will fight aircrons with the same flying tyrants we did a week ago - they're still s6 assault 12, but now BS4 for 30 points cheaper apiece.
Crones get d3+1 auto hits at s8 ignores cover when they vector strike - the croissants don't ignore their (admittedly crappy) 4+ armor. We have better anti-air than before at lower cost, it just isn't Tau Empire Anti-Air that everyone is used to seeing at tournaments.
It's not all doom and gloom. It's just...meh.
A week ago Tyranids weren't relevant. Noone who actually goes to tournaments cares how they used to fight Aircrons, because if you actually ended up playings vs. Tyranids you always ended up winning. That's why I should've formulated my question better. My point was, how are the new Tyranids going to succesfully deal with Aircrons and the other armies that I mentioned? So of course, if the methods haven't changed, it means the methods still blow, and Cruddy & Co failed to address these issues just like they failed to address the hundred other issues that have plagued certain units or armies for a decade.
They had one good build that was kind of a dick army, but those days are over now!
Spawn at end of movement phase.
Works even when in combat.
3 d6 within 6 inches.
Spawned unit cannot move or charge.
Can run and shoot.
Spawned unit counts as troops for mission purposes.
If double rolled it cannot spawn for rest of game.
One funny thing I am half tempted to try is a Trygon Prime with the Reaper of Obliterax Bonesword.
That boosts its Initiative to 7, Strength to 7, gives it Shred and Life Drain (and of course in concern with one set of Talons, brings its Attacks back to 6). It would make for an interesting multi-wound model hunter (thanks to the re-rolling to wound and Instant Death on 6s).
Redemption wrote:Besides the Terror from the Deep? They can Run I guess? And look menacing.
haha, awesome!
Still, killing MEQs on 2+ with rerolls is enough for me. Plus if they don't kill all in his way, a roll of 4-6 on the Mishap Chart means he's coming back for another go, next turn
ductvader wrote:Can we get some real wording on tervigons?
For one, do they spawn following the same rules as before?
3d6 with ohnoes for doubles?
Apparently so.
Tervigon always burns out on first spawn for me. It's a T6 W6 monster who can sit on objectives without being babysat. And with the Larvae upgrade she can hold her own for a bit. I'm no must win at all costs player though which allot of the Tervigon negativity appears to be coming from.
People seem to have thrown away the all dependable Flyrant that was in everyones list before, got significantly better. Not that i want to run 2, but i guess it's a nice crutch.
Maelstrom808 wrote: So anyone have more info on spore mine clusters? Did they retain orbital bombardment in it's current form? Are they still S4 AP4 large blasts? At -5ppm and the ability to direct them (and charge with them) they could absolutely wreck face to those 4+sv troops cowering behind defense lines.
Misses from spore weapons make D3 spore mines. You can also buy 3-6 mines with deep strike. They move 3" and run/charge half what you roll. Not slowed by difficult terrain but test for Dangerous. The blow up at the I10 step in CC. S4+1 per mine after the first Large Blast centered over one of the mines. AP4 Ignores Cover.
Note that they're T1 W1 no save, so overwatch is going to eat their lunch. Also note that they're Init 1, so their explosion happens before either side piles in (unless you're fighting I10 stuff). I'd be shocked if you got more than 3 hits typically.
Maelstrom808 wrote: So anyone have more info on spore mine clusters? Did they retain orbital bombardment in it's current form? Are they still S4 AP4 large blasts? At -5ppm and the ability to direct them (and charge with them) they could absolutely wreck face to those 4+sv troops cowering behind defense lines.
Misses from spore weapons make D3 spore mines. You can also buy 3-6 mines with deep strike. They move 3" and run/charge half what you roll. Not slowed by difficult terrain but test for Dangerous. The blow up at the I10 step in CC. S4+1 per mine after the first Large Blast centered over one of the mines. AP4 Ignores Cover.
Note that they're T1 W1 no save, so overwatch is going to eat their lunch. Also note that they're Init 1, so their explosion happens before either side piles in (unless you're fighting I10 stuff). I'd be shocked if you got more than 3 hits typically.
For 5pts a piece...the movement denial is quite worthwhile.
Maelstrom808 wrote: So anyone have more info on spore mine clusters? Did they retain orbital bombardment in it's current form? Are they still S4 AP4 large blasts? At -5ppm and the ability to direct them (and charge with them) they could absolutely wreck face to those 4+sv troops cowering behind defense lines.
Misses from spore weapons make D3 spore mines. You can also buy 3-6 mines with deep strike. They move 3" and run/charge half what you roll. Not slowed by difficult terrain but test for Dangerous. The blow up at the I10 step in CC. S4+1 per mine after the first Large Blast centered over one of the mines. AP4 Ignores Cover.
Note that they're T1 W1 no save, so overwatch is going to eat their lunch. Also note that they're Init 1, so their explosion happens before either side piles in (unless you're fighting I10 stuff). I'd be shocked if you got more than 3 hits typically.
Eh, Overwatch hits on sixes. Could get lucky. Besides, better the mines get overwatched than something important.
Still pretty handy. If they shoot the mines, that's less shots against the main army. If they don't shoot the mines, they get closer. You say you can charge with them?
Charging with them is the only way to make them blow up.
Redemption wrote:Besides the Terror from the Deep? They can Run I guess? And look menacing.
haha, awesome!
Still, killing MEQs on 2+ with rerolls is enough for me. Plus if they don't kill all in his way, a roll of 4-6 on the Mishap Chart means he's coming back for another go, next turn
You just have to hope you're not in reserve when the game ends. But hey, it's 140 pts...fairly disposable, right?
Now that I'm listbuilding...I'm having fun. Every time I swap something out, dominos fall and I want to make other changes. It's a little hard to see an obvious core right now.
Maelstrom808 wrote: So anyone have more info on spore mine clusters? Did they retain orbital bombardment in it's current form? Are they still S4 AP4 large blasts? At -5ppm and the ability to direct them (and charge with them) they could absolutely wreck face to those 4+sv troops cowering behind defense lines.
Misses from spore weapons make D3 spore mines. You can also buy 3-6 mines with deep strike. They move 3" and run/charge half what you roll. Not slowed by difficult terrain but test for Dangerous. The blow up at the I10 step in CC. S4+1 per mine after the first Large Blast centered over one of the mines. AP4 Ignores Cover.
Note that they're T1 W1 no save, so overwatch is going to eat their lunch. Also note that they're Init 1, so their explosion happens before either side piles in (unless you're fighting I10 stuff). I'd be shocked if you got more than 3 hits typically.
The scan I'm reading is blurry, what's the maximum strength? 9?
Edit: Also, do they give up a kill point? It wouldn't shock me for GW to make suicide units do that.
Take three groups and drop them in behind the defense line, probably lose one to scatter. The other two can cause some pretty decent issues for their deployment. If you get first turn, try to move them so even if they blow to overwatch on the assault, they will still take out a few guys. Not bad for 45 points (assuming a three model minimum per group still). If you are feeling saucy, bump up the model count in the groups for a bigger footprint.
EDIT: If shooting them doesn't make them explode anymore, that's freaking awesome.
Going from the doom and gloom of loss of so many things that we had going for us in the old dex, to seeing the optimism in your posts and people picking up tidbits here and there, it makes me happy, although most of my army is redundant, and i dont want to but more things, but yeah, i do like the fex lists tbh..
gorgon wrote: It's a little hard to see an obvious core right now.
That's my favorite part of this book.
Personally, I think it's going to be Venoms Fexes and Gargoyles
I'm trying to develop three lists concurrently -- a shoot ya list, a run across and crump ya list, and a jump out at ya list. VTs and Carnifexes look rock-solid in the first 2, so you might be on to something there.
Maelstrom808 wrote: So anyone have more info on spore mine clusters? Did they retain orbital bombardment in it's current form? Are they still S4 AP4 large blasts? At -5ppm and the ability to direct them (and charge with them) they could absolutely wreck face to those 4+sv troops cowering behind defense lines.
Misses from spore weapons make D3 spore mines. You can also buy 3-6 mines with deep strike. They move 3" and run/charge half what you roll. Not slowed by difficult terrain but test for Dangerous. The blow up at the I10 step in CC. S4+1 per mine after the first Large Blast centered over one of the mines. AP4 Ignores Cover.
Note that they're T1 W1 no save, so overwatch is going to eat their lunch. Also note that they're Init 1, so their explosion happens before either side piles in (unless you're fighting I10 stuff). I'd be shocked if you got more than 3 hits typically.
The scan I'm reading is blurry, what's the maximum strength? 9?
Edit: Also, do they give up a kill point? It wouldn't shock me for GW to make suicide units do that.
Rules max is 10, but a max size unit of 6 can only get to 9 (4 + 5 other mines = 9). They do not give up VP, or score, or deny.
is there a mechanic to take gargoyles as troops that anyone has found? because even with out that gargoyle rush + FMC's + fexes and gaunts close behind is a scary fast list...
not to mention as others have clued into, the uber cheap spore mines do a lot tactics wise if you know how to use em.
people complaing how OMGURR riptides are when tau can only take 3 or 4 assuming your TO hasnt banned incestuos allies, but for some reason people fail to see the awesome that 9 fexes could bring...
nids are a strong book, far from the weakest (thats orks ATM, and im still 7wins to one loss with them... they are fine till one of the 4-6 hard counters pops up) and not even close to the 2nd worst either....
iff 100's of boys can roflstomp lots of net lists, venom spam, ect, then hordes of gaunts with hordes of MC will do juuuuust fine suppoted by all the otehr stuff nids get.
lots of different, and viable builds will come out of this.
Maelstrom808 wrote: Take three groups and drop them in behind the defense line, probably lose one to scatter. The other two can cause some pretty decent issues for their deployment. If you get first turn, try to move them so even if they blow to overwatch on the assault, they will still take out a few guys. Not bad for 45 points (assuming a three model minimum per group still). If you are feeling saucy, bump up the model count in the groups for a bigger footprint.
They either start on your side of the board or they DS in turn 2+. There's not going to be any direct effect on their deployment unless they deploy specifically to counter your units that might get 3 hits if you're lucky.
is there a mechanic to take gargoyles as troops that anyone has found? because even with out that gargoyle rush + FMC's + fexes and gaunts close behind is a scary fast list...
not to mention as others have clued into, the uber cheap spore mines do a lot tactics wise if you know how to use em.
people complaing how OMGURR riptides are when tau can only take 3 or 4 assuming your TO hasnt banned incestuos allies, but for some reason people fail to see the awesome that 9 fexes could bring...
nids are a strong book, far from the weakest (thats orks ATM) and not even close to the 2nd worst either....
lots of different, and viable builds will come out of this.
Wonder how the power lists will deal with a swarm of tyranids if the points are cheap enough. Even getting one swarm into the crazy units will lock most of them up for the rest of the game. Surround them with another one and then they cant hit an run away(I believe)
damn was hoping for some way, but still they are cheap enough and in a less crowded FOC slot, so masses of them will still be awesome for getting to grips with the enemy, plus scoring in some missions, denial in the rest.
Maelstrom808 wrote: Take three groups and drop them in behind the defense line, probably lose one to scatter. The other two can cause some pretty decent issues for their deployment. If you get first turn, try to move them so even if they blow to overwatch on the assault, they will still take out a few guys. Not bad for 45 points (assuming a three model minimum per group still). If you are feeling saucy, bump up the model count in the groups for a bigger footprint.
They either start on your side of the board or they DS in turn 2+. There's not going to be any direct effect on their deployment unless they deploy specifically to counter your units that might get 3 hits if you're lucky.
Ah, nm then. That's why I asked if orbital bombardment still existed in it's current form.
Maelstrom808 wrote: EDIT: If shooting them doesn't make them explode anymore, that's freaking awesome.
They only blow up at Init step 10 in CC. Nothing else makes them blow up.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Isn't there a tyranid unit that can drop spore mines? Was it the biovore or the harpy?
Both create D3 mines if their spore attack scatters off the target.
Is that per Biovore? (so a total of 3 D3 for a full brood?)
The rule only applies to the first blast marker of the barrage.
Hmm that could be nasty. Is it one shot only, or can they lay down mines per turn? I might have to tweak my TAC necron list to account for this... Good thing it only applies to the first marker though. A trio of biovores laying down 9 mines a turn would be nuts.
Hmm that could be nasty. Is it one shot only, or can they lay down mines per turn? I can see a trio of biovores just coating the field with mines. I might have to tweak my TAC necron list to account for this...
Every time they shoot, but they have to miss entirely.
Looks like spore mines might be nasty against tau then. Since it ignores cover, it'll mess up a gun line a bit. Perhaps even kill those pesky marker lights
Is it the spore mine detonation that ignores cover, or can the standard shot from biovores and harpies ignore cover as well?
Actually, spores could be fantastic against vehicles. They don't get overwatch, and by using them in combat it's against rear armour. I'd definitely pay 30pts for an automatically-hitting S9 attack on rear AV.
You can probably also guide them in with Lictors too.
xttz wrote: Actually, spores could be fantastic against vehicles. They don't get overwatch, and by using them in combat it's against rear armour. I'd definitely pay 30pts for an automatically-hitting S9 attack on rear AV.
You can probably also guide them in with Lictors too.
Ooh scary. That could mess up necron vehicles quite a bit too, since QS doesn't cover the rear.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Looks like spore mines might be nasty against tau then. Since it ignores cover, it'll mess up a gun line a bit. Perhaps even kill those pesky marker lights
Is it the spore mine detonation that ignores cover, or can the standard shot from biovores and harpies ignore cover as well?
If Biovore shots gained Ignore Cover, that's a pretty frelling HUGE upgrade.
xttz wrote:Actually, spores could be fantastic against vehicles. They don't get overwatch, and by using them in combat it's against rear armour. I'd definitely pay 30pts for an automatically-hitting S9 attack on rear AV.
You can probably also guide them in with Lictors too.
It will depend on if the explosion is treated as a CC attack, or if it is like the Toxic Miasma effect that goes off in CC, but it not an actual CC attack.
And for 30 points, you're not exploding at S9. You're exploding at S6; which is still not awful against AV10.
With all the hate on the new codex, I would like to offer a differing opinion.
The Nids can give any and every MC they have Fleet due to adrenal Glands. That is awesome. Really really awesome. the new heavy with its 6 s7 ap2 shots as bs 4. yes please! that will be good for shooting at those darn riptides. same with hive guard. Our Flyer is BAD, our Tyrant is GOOD. The +1s +3 int +Life leach (aka distort) Sword is actually pretty nice except for the points.
Carnifexes with fleet furious charge and regen will run 165 points. not terrible not great.
Mawlocks got way better. In pure killing power they don't seem that impressive. Consider the ability they have to remove units from objectives. Also I believe mawlock sniping will be a thing (at least I am doing it!!!). The mawlock uses the same rules as barrage, so consider a large number of hits on a unit with a beefy character. even if you don't land straight on his head not much lives through S6 AP2 ignores cover. If not enough stuff died we rinse, lather, then repeat! fantastic stuff from that unit.
Our psycic powers got forked over to the dice gods. so did everyone who has a 6th codex. no Iron arm from biomancy is annoying, but then again a T9 tyrant was a bit silly too.
warriors are still bad, except for the fact that you can give them fleet. Also I have not seen the rules for synapse yet. So I am still holding out for eternal warrior.
Raveners Loosing rending claws is not true. you just gotta buy em. cheap points.
the price reduction on hormas/termis is awesome in my mind. I usefully field at least 30 so that frees up 30 points to spend on upgrades! YAY points. this also allows our allies detachment to be incredibly cheap on points. starting at 160 points to unlock and extra +Heavy, Fast and Elite.
Also no one is talking about the upgrade to make it so the tervigon can't stop producing more units. Though to be fair you give up TONS of victory points in competitive play with those things (when used all the time).
Anyways I am a bit sad they did not introduce any new special characters, I would have loved to see some kinda trygon. also maybe a BIG trygon. To go toe to toe with the eldar wraithnight. Would have been cool.
Either way out of all the new models. All I want is an Exocrine. I think one of each of exocrine, trygon and mawlock will be so strong.
to 3++ is the new black if you want to find the spanish codex. at least shots of bunches of it. this is where I am getting most of my information. As well as google translate.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Looks like spore mines might be nasty against tau then. Since it ignores cover, it'll mess up a gun line a bit. Perhaps even kill those pesky marker lights
Is it the spore mine detonation that ignores cover, or can the standard shot from biovores and harpies ignore cover as well?
Do they flat out ignore it, or is this just Barrage? Because that's nothing new.
And for 30 points, you're not exploding at S9. You're exploding at S6; which is still not awful against AV10.
They're 5pts each now, a full cluster of 6 is 30pts. The only drawback is they can't deep strike then assault, so your opponent gets a turn to blast 'em.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Looks like spore mines might be nasty against tau then. Since it ignores cover, it'll mess up a gun line a bit. Perhaps even kill those pesky marker lights
Is it the spore mine detonation that ignores cover, or can the standard shot from biovores and harpies ignore cover as well?
If Biovore shots gained Ignore Cover, that's a pretty frelling HUGE upgrade.
I know, right! Logically, it makes a bit of sense as well as it's more or less a gas attack. They probably won't have ignore cover though. That would be too metal.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Looks like spore mines might be nasty against tau then. Since it ignores cover, it'll mess up a gun line a bit. Perhaps even kill those pesky marker lights
Is it the spore mine detonation that ignores cover, or can the standard shot from biovores and harpies ignore cover as well?
If Biovore shots gained Ignore Cover, that's a pretty frelling HUGE upgrade.
Biovore's kind of already ignore cover due to barrage. Doesn't help with attacking a unit in area terrain or under the effect of something like a KFF.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Looks like spore mines might be nasty against tau then. Since it ignores cover, it'll mess up a gun line a bit. Perhaps even kill those pesky marker lights
Is it the spore mine detonation that ignores cover, or can the standard shot from biovores and harpies ignore cover as well?
Do they flat out ignore it, or is this just Barrage? Because that's nothing new.
Can barrage ignore area terrain cover? I don't think it can, but I'm too lazy to grab the BrB.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Looks like spore mines might be nasty against tau then. Since it ignores cover, it'll mess up a gun line a bit. Perhaps even kill those pesky marker lights
Is it the spore mine detonation that ignores cover, or can the standard shot from biovores and harpies ignore cover as well?
If Biovore shots gained Ignore Cover, that's a pretty frelling HUGE upgrade.
xttz wrote:Actually, spores could be fantastic against vehicles. They don't get overwatch, and by using them in combat it's against rear armour. I'd definitely pay 30pts for an automatically-hitting S9 attack on rear AV.
You can probably also guide them in with Lictors too.
It will depend on if the explosion is treated as a CC attack, or if it is like the Toxic Miasma effect that goes off in CC, but it not an actual CC attack.
And for 30 points, you're not exploding at S9. You're exploding at S6; which is still not awful against AV10.
30 points is S9. 15 for the first 3, 15 for the 2nd 3 = 6 mines = S9 for 30 points.
Biovore shots are 48" S4 AP4 Assault 1, Barrage, Large Blast, Spore Burst. Spore Burst grants the D3 spores if the first Barrage pie has no models under it.
Lictors would guide in the purchased Spore Mines if the Lictor started the turn on the table.
1. Hive Guard BS dropped to 3, and with AP4 they're useless for shooting at Riptides (2+ armor).
2. Fleet + Regen Fexes for 165 is much better than naked Fexes for 160.
3. Mawlocks got cheaper, but not really WAY better. Their attack from below is buffed, but it's still competing for HS slots.
4. We know Synapse doesn't grant EW. Nothing in the Nid codex does.
5. Raveners are still too costly.
6. 1 PPM for Horms/Terms isn't as big as people think, especially because TS/AG went up and Tervs no longer share those upgrades with Terms. So if you want TS/AG on your Terms, you're shelling out MORE points than before.
7. There is no upgrade for Tervigons to not stop producing.
All barrage does is cause the cover saves and wounds to come from the center of the blast marker. So it works to hit stuff getting cover from buildings or ADL. It will not negate any cover they are standing in nor cover based rules.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Looks like spore mines might be nasty against tau then. Since it ignores cover, it'll mess up a gun line a bit. Perhaps even kill those pesky marker lights
Is it the spore mine detonation that ignores cover, or can the standard shot from biovores and harpies ignore cover as well?
If Biovore shots gained Ignore Cover, that's a pretty frelling HUGE upgrade.
xttz wrote:Actually, spores could be fantastic against vehicles. They don't get overwatch, and by using them in combat it's against rear armour. I'd definitely pay 30pts for an automatically-hitting S9 attack on rear AV.
You can probably also guide them in with Lictors too.
It will depend on if the explosion is treated as a CC attack, or if it is like the Toxic Miasma effect that goes off in CC, but it not an actual CC attack.
And for 30 points, you're not exploding at S9. You're exploding at S6; which is still not awful against AV10.
30 points is S9. 15 for the first 3, 15 for the 2nd 3 = 6 mines = S9 for 30 points.
Biovore shots are 48" S4 AP4 Assault 1, Barrage, Large Blast, Spore Burst. Spore Burst grants the D3 spores if the first Barrage pie has no models under it.
Lictors would guide in the purchased Spore Mines if the Lictor started the turn on the table.
Ah ok, so they don't get the Ignore Cover rule then, just the Barrage rule. Still, as long as a gunline isn't in area terrain, it could wreak havoc.
xttz wrote:They're 5pts each now, a full cluster of 6 is 30pts. The only drawback is they can't deep strike then assault, so your opponent gets a turn to blast 'em.
skarsol wrote:30 points is S9. 15 for the first 3, 15 for the 2nd 3 = 6 mines = S9 for 30 points.
Biovore shots are 48" S4 AP4 Assault 1, Barrage, Large Blast, Spore Burst. Spore Burst grants the D3 spores if the first Barrage pie has no models under it.
Lictors would guide in the purchased Spore Mines if the Lictor started the turn on the table.
I R GUD AT MATHS!
Yeah, brain fart on my part there. Was still thinking the old costs.
Biovores being Barrage isn't quite the same as Ignores Cover. It will ignore things like ADLs, but not woods or ruins or other area terrain/area terrain affects.
xttz wrote:They're 5pts each now, a full cluster of 6 is 30pts. The only drawback is they can't deep strike then assault, so your opponent gets a turn to blast 'em.
skarsol wrote:30 points is S9. 15 for the first 3, 15 for the 2nd 3 = 6 mines = S9 for 30 points.
Biovore shots are 48" S4 AP4 Assault 1, Barrage, Large Blast, Spore Burst. Spore Burst grants the D3 spores if the first Barrage pie has no models under it.
Lictors would guide in the purchased Spore Mines if the Lictor started the turn on the table.
I R GUD AT MATHS!
Yeah, brain fart on my part there. Was still thinking the old costs.
Biovores being Barrage isn't quite the same as Ignores Cover. It will ignore things like ADLs, but not woods or ruins or other area terrain/area terrain affects.
Hmm I'm seeing a possible tactic of making the ADL dangerous to use by mining it, and bringing in the flyers to spew even more mines.
And for 30 points, you're not exploding at S9. You're exploding at S6; which is still not awful against AV10.
They're 5pts each now, a full cluster of 6 is 30pts. The only drawback is they can't deep strike then assault, so your opponent gets a turn to blast 'em.
And for 30 points, you're not exploding at S9. You're exploding at S6; which is still not awful against AV10.
They're 5pts each now, a full cluster of 6 is 30pts. The only drawback is they can't deep strike then assault, so your opponent gets a turn to blast 'em.
Apparently, you can no longer shoot mines, except from overwatch. If so, that makes them a lot more lethal.
And for 30 points, you're not exploding at S9. You're exploding at S6; which is still not awful against AV10.
They're 5pts each now, a full cluster of 6 is 30pts. The only drawback is they can't deep strike then assault, so your opponent gets a turn to blast 'em.
Apparently, you can no longer shoot mines, except from overwatch. If so, that makes them a lot more lethal.
There's nothing that says you cant shoot them as much as you want.
Nothing that I see in the Codex gives them that ability.
That's disappointing. In a landscape which allows using 4 or more sources to make an army including additional FoC slots or units which ignore the FoC altogether it seems unfair to restrict Nids to One chart.
My words not his: if you're a competitive gamer, the sky has fallen for nids. The changes to deployment (drop pods removed), instinctive behavior (units flee without taking casualties, or inflict casualties on themselves), psychic power access, every single artifact is useless or overcosted, and unit nerfs make this new codex utter garbage.
If you're a beer and pretzels gamer or modeler/painter, great have fun with it. Horde nids couldn't be played in tournament time limits before and the price reductions only make this worse.
FW makes wings that fit the Warrior models. And with FW possibly getting integrated into the main GW site, it's not much different than the existing upgrade pack approach for certain units.
The Warrior kit also has all the equipment options you need for Shrikes.
And if so... doesn't that debunk the idea that GW isn't putting out rules for entries where there is no model currently?
Finally, if the above is true... are there any good (attractive / cool / etc) 3rd party models that could work for Shrikes?
Shrikes are in the codex. And no, Forgeworld, which GW owns, makes Shrike models so there is no room for a 3rd party to hop in with GW going after everyone post chapterhouse.
gorgon wrote: FW makes wings that fit the Warrior models. And with FW possibly getting integrated into the main GW site, it's not much different than the existing upgrade pack approach for certain units.
The Warrior kit also has all the equipment options you need for Shrikes.
Technically, they are just jump infantry and don't have wings listed as biomorphs, so they don't need wings. They just, you know, jump long distances.
gorgon wrote: FW makes wings that fit the Warrior models. And with FW possibly getting integrated into the main GW site, it's not much different than the existing upgrade pack approach for certain units.
The Warrior kit also has all the equipment options you need for Shrikes.
Technically, they are just jump infantry and don't have wings listed as biomorphs, so they don't need wings. They just, you know, jump long distances.
Double jointed legs and snake bodies are common representations.
I'm not a Tyranid player myself, but I really enjoy their fluff and style. However, after reading through some of the changes, I can't help but feel deeply saddened by the codex change. All it seems to be is a heavy backhand to the good units, with very little given to other parts of the codex. The loss of BRB powers, in my eyes, is a massive nerf, and one that I don't feel was necessary. I can't help but feel enraged by the lack of insight into what the codex really needed. It feels like they looked at it, said that's too good, increase the points, but hey lets give it +1 Ballistic Skill (or some other BS) to make up for it. It appears (at first glance) a complete insult to the players by essentially taking away Mysetic Spores and other such units. That to me, was also an unnecessary loss. One that I would equate as equally painful as the loss of BRB powers. It doesn't make any sense. Most of the changes in the Dex don't make any sense! I know it's GW but come on.
I am also deeply saddened by the fact (that at this very moment) I will constantly have to gear my lists toward Eldar/Tau, instead of having to think, "What will the new Tyranids bring that I have to be afraid of?"
bodazoka wrote: What were some of the things people were expecting for so much negativity?
Some combination of:
Warriors/Hormagaunts/Genestealers being playable
Flyers that are not T5 4+ Armor
Some type of long range shooting
2+ armor SOMEWHERE
Continued access the BRB psychic powers (and being blindsided by the loss of those was possibly the worst part of this)
Not having Scything Talons become LESS useful than they are now
Some type of fix to the Pyrovore
I could go on, but this should give you a general idea
My words not his: if you're a competitive gamer, the sky has fallen for nids. The changes to deployment (drop pods removed), instinctive behavior (units flee without taking casualties, or inflict casualties on themselves), psychic power access, every single artifact is useless or overcosted, and unit nerfs make this new codex utter garbage.
If you're a beer and pretzels gamer or modeler/painter, great have fun with it. Horde nids couldn't be played in tournament time limits before and the price reductions only make this worse.
I can't wait to pull this post out in a months time when people realise that the point reduction alone made Nids competitive.
Nids don't need an uber stupid artifact to make them good.
I think we'll see NIds again as much as we did when 6th first landed, they were never going to be the "Go To" dex.
There are issues that force a slightly different list i feel but i fully expect it to still have a competitive edge.
SitW could also be a nice combo with Deathleaper to try and stop Psychic shenanigans. -4 to -6 to the LD of your Psyker Warlord could be pretty nice. Against Daemons, this could make it hurt if they ever lose combat, and against Eldar you might get lucky and prevent some of those Fortunes.
A lot of contingencies, though, might make this quite unreliable. Deathleaper, though, is probably one of the units I am most excited to try.
I am feeling good/optimistic about making a CC oriented list that will be competitive in my local meta. Assaulting at initiative, shrikes, crones, flyrants, gargoyles.... A themed list (wings ) will look good and hopefully beat down armies dedicated to shooting.
My words not his: if you're a competitive gamer, the sky has fallen for nids. The changes to deployment (drop pods removed), instinctive behavior (units flee without taking casualties, or inflict casualties on themselves), psychic power access, every single artifact is useless or overcosted, and unit nerfs make this new codex utter garbage.
If you're a beer and pretzels gamer or modeler/painter, great have fun with it. Horde nids couldn't be played in tournament time limits before and the price reductions only make this worse.
I love how much you two have played with the new codex to know, for certain, what's over-costed (without doing cross-codex-vacuum-comparisons).
Oh wait...you mean you're just guessing like the rest of the (normally wrong) internet?
The previous codex was not competitive. BRB Biomancy made a few monsters tough, but the rest of the army was still junk. The units got universally cheaper, with more upgrade/load-out options, and we have entirely new stuff.
Biomancy forcing us to spam Flyrants and Tervigons does not a good codex make.
Battlesong wrote:
bodazoka wrote: What were some of the things people were expecting for so much negativity?
Some combination of:
Warriors/Hormagaunts/Genestealers being playable We don't know for certain they aren't yet. We haven't used them in combination with the rest of the book to find out. Flyers that are not T5 4+ Armor They are still FMC's and thus ultra-annoying to kill. But CLEARLY these will be on the table all by themselves for opponents to focus on, right? Some type of long range shooting Tyranids have never been good at this and never will be. Nor should they be. Their job is to close on the enemy. A muscle spasm isn't going to launch something as far as a mechanical/hydraulic machine. But ignoring our incredible firepower at 24", plus the HVC, the now reasonably priced Tyrannofex and Biovore options, I could see why you would make such a comment. 2+ armor SOMEWHERE They are flesh and bone; there's no reason to have 2+ anywhere. Besides, the Tyrannofex does have it, and loads of the army can be under Catalyst bubbles. Continued access the BRB psychic powers (and being blindsided by the loss of those was possibly the worst part of this) The previous codex didn't have it either. GW added these in the BRB. Considering that this was the only thing making the previous piece of crap playable, I'd hardly call it a loss. I would rather a codex is self-sufficient (which we are unsure of yet) than rely on a BRB power hijacked to give a couple of monsters some life. Besides, some of the new combos people are discussing will make guys like the Swarmlord just as hard to kill as ever, and arguably stronger in combat. Not having Scything Talons become LESS useful than they are now So they went from re-rolling 1's to more often than not adding +1A. Yeah, not really a big deal. People weren't exactly buying these as upgrades on anything before, so that's a wash. Some type of fix to the Pyrovore He's cheaper, tougher, fightier, and can hurt vehicles. While not a WAAC model, he's 100% better than he was. Of course, anyone's definition of "fix" is probably relative on the internet.
I could go on, but this should give you a general idea. No, it's still just a bunch of "sky is falling" whining that happens with the release of EVERY NEW CODEX EVER...
Anyone here involved with making the templates for BattleScribe? Im curious how long it will take for one to be made, I remember the Eldar one being quite quick.
As a competitive player I can this will be hard to be competitive with for a few reasons.
1) Dropped points costs mean more models. Beer and pretzles its fine, but at a tourny that can be real bad. It looks to play faster with fewer rerolls.
2) This is not the Nid codex fault, but there are a lot of other lists out there with lots of MCs now. Nidzilla used to work becuse everyone tooled up for mech. Now a lot more folks have tools and plans for 5-6 MCs.
3) Synapse went for a good thing to be in (generally) to a very bad thing to be out of. With this codex if you kill off all the synapse you have probably just won the game.
4) A lot of the units depend on cover saves do to the utter lack of invuln saves. In the current meta so much stuff ignores cover it is almost useless. (markerlight, wave serpents, ect).
rollawaythestone wrote: SitW could also be a nice combo with Deathleaper to try and stop Psychic shenanigans. -4 to -6 to the LD of your Psyker Warlord could be pretty nice. Against Daemons, this could make it hurt if they ever lose combat, and against Eldar you might get lucky and prevent some of those Fortunes.
A lot of contingencies, though, might make this quite unreliable. Deathleaper, though, is probably one of the units I am most excited to try.
Deathleaper is presenting a number of interesting options. Even the Mawloc looks pretty good in a list with him.
That's what I'm excited about: the new possibilities. People are getting stuck up on the mono-build from last edition not working the exact same way it did before instead of thinking of the new stuff.
They did this with the Tau and Eldar books too, so if that's an indication of who to trust...
Ive had enormous success the past few months with Nidzilla and 40 gargoyles poisoned and adrenal glanded out. The opponent WANTS to be able to focus on bringing down the big guys but if you ignore those Gargoyles only the few 11+ rear armored vehicles can afford that, let alone what they tarpit.
So now I can fit in MORE MC's, keep the same strat, and my Venomthrope shield just improved. I am bummed about the fliers being squishy, but they will either take shots that spare my big killers or the Crone itself will be able to get close enough to inflict a lot of hurt.
It depends on the choices the opponent is willing to make.
Many pages, full brain, what does Deathleaper do to leadership? Does it stack with SITW? Did we also have a -LD power? I would go back and find the answers... but then another few pages will appear.
Some type of fix to the Pyrovore He's cheaper, tougher, fightier, and can hurt vehicles. While not a WAAC model, he's 100% better than he was. Of course, anyone's definition of "fix" is probably relative on the internet.
I could go on, but this should give you a general idea. No, it's still just a bunch of "sky is falling" whining that happens with the release of EVERY NEW CODEX EVER...
The moment you defended the pyrovore you lost all tactical credibility imo. It's still downright one of the worst units, and has NOTHING to do with being a WAAC player. The sky isn't falling since the sky ALREADY fell on nids years ago. The only good things they had were biomancy and that was removed without adding anything in.
rollawaythestone wrote: SitW could also be a nice combo with Deathleaper to try and stop Psychic shenanigans. -4 to -6 to the LD of your Psyker Warlord could be pretty nice. Against Daemons, this could make it hurt if they ever lose combat, and against Eldar you might get lucky and prevent some of those Fortunes.
A lot of contingencies, though, might make this quite unreliable. Deathleaper, though, is probably one of the units I am most excited to try.
Deathleaper is presenting a number of interesting options. Even the Mawloc looks pretty good in a list with him.
That's what I'm excited about: the new possibilities. People are getting stuck up on the mono-build from last edition not working the exact same way it did before instead of thinking of the new stuff.
They did this with the Tau and Eldar books too, so if that's an indication of who to trust...
I don't know why you've constantly thought throughout this thread that no one in existence can see the good and bad in the Tyranid codex. Looking at things in a vacuum is what people are not doing. For example, you know what would be great in a vacuum? Crone. Strong template, nice vector strike, 5 wounds. Great! Until you realize what going to happen if you do that stuff.
People can look at a unit and say if it is good or not. A lot of us have played enough to make that call. Just because a unit did something crazy on the table one time does not make it mathematically likely that it will happen all the time.
Look, if you're a non-competitive gamer, than great. I don't think this should be the thread you should be posting in.
Nem wrote: Many pages, full brain, what does Deathleaper do to leadership? Does it stack with SITW? Did we also have a -LD power? I would go back and find the answers... but then another few pages will appear.
Decreases it by 1d3. There is nothing to say it can't stack with Shadows. There is a Horror power that can cause LD at 2D6+2. So, chain that stuff together.
I think the deathleaper is probably going to be an auto include in every game.
rollawaythestone wrote: SitW could also be a nice combo with Deathleaper to try and stop Psychic shenanigans. -4 to -6 to the LD of your Psyker Warlord could be pretty nice. Against Daemons, this could make it hurt if they ever lose combat, and against Eldar you might get lucky and prevent some of those Fortunes.
A lot of contingencies, though, might make this quite unreliable. Deathleaper, though, is probably one of the units I am most excited to try.
I like Deathleaper more all the time. He'll have to be in the right army, though. That's an HQ slot that's not providing any synapse.
Nem wrote: Many pages, full brain, what does Deathleaper do to leadership? Does it stack with SITW? Did we also have a -LD power? I would go back and find the answers... but then another few pages will appear.
Decreases it by 1d3. There is nothing to say it can't stack with Shadows. There is a Horror power that can cause LD at 2D6+2. So, chain that stuff together.
I think the deathleaper is probably going to be an auto include in every game.
Well, in most cases the character you've decreased Leadership of will be in a squad, so most of the time it'll only make 1 or 2 points of difference, if any. Still, any bonus is nice I guess. Against Psykers it's very nice of course.
brassangel wrote: I love how much you two have played with the new codex to know, for certain, what's over-costed (without doing cross-codex-vacuum-comparisons).
I wish you'd stop with this nonsense.
You can glean what most units will be like from reading their rules. How they might work together is a (slightly) different story, but please stop pretending like we have no idea what these units do until we actually use them on the table.
I think there's some interesting stuff in the codex, but there are also obviously missed opportunities and some real head-scratchers.
But I've already accepted them and moved on. Since I have a large, mostly painted Tyranid collection already, I don't think I'll need to do a ton of work or spend much money for the new codex. Which is good. I'll get up to speed and then be able to move back on my daemons project. I don't think that's a good thing for GW, but they're the ones who wrote the codex.
NamelessBard wrote: Look, if you're a non-competitive gamer, than great. I don't think this should be the thread you should be posting in.
I can almost see your butthurt from here in the USA.
Yeah Bard was being a bit hyperbolic, but brassangel's shameless defense of every single unit in the codex is just as worthless as the posters he's decrying. If we aren't even allowed to point out that genestealers, or the PYROVORE for crissakes, are still bad units no matter how you evaluate them, how can anyone have a discussion?
Venomethropes giving shrouded is quite cool.
Could you exploit intervening model rule by putting some gaunts in front of carnifexes and have venomthropes give them shrouded resulting in 3+ cover in open terrain?
My words not his: if you're a competitive gamer, the sky has fallen for nids. The changes to deployment (drop pods removed), instinctive behavior (units flee without taking casualties, or inflict casualties on themselves), psychic power access, every single artifact is useless or overcosted, and unit nerfs make this new codex utter garbage.
If you're a beer and pretzels gamer or modeler/painter, great have fun with it. Horde nids couldn't be played in tournament time limits before and the price reductions only make this worse.
I can't wait to pull this post out in a months time when people realise that the point reduction alone made Nids competitive.
Nids don't need an uber stupid artifact to make them good.
I think we'll see NIds again as much as we did when 6th first landed, they were never going to be the "Go To" dex.
There are issues that force a slightly different list i feel but i fully expect it to still have a competitive edge.
QFT Oh crap, the talking heads of the internet said something... They MUST be right....
Competitive 40k is a joke to begin with otherwise they wouldn't need to reformat the core rules every 2 months in order to hold an event so I have to laugh at the people who form opinions based on the game as if it was balanced like chess. He may as well right a review on competitive Yahtzee as far as I am concerned.
Neither of them have even read the book in it's entirety yet, let alone let it digest for a week. I still don't see the synapse thing as being as big an issue that some of these guys are.
MM ya, think ill be buying more Venoms to buff, moving ground MC's up behind cover conferring Gargoyles. Hopefully buffing FNP to the FMC units who take the reins in actual early game damage (and receiving fire I guess). Cover shenanigans always annoyed my Meta, but now it looks better than before. 4 or so FMC's strait out option for that many VS, flyers and vehicles are going to struggle more against some builds.
Plus no one plays Tau here so, yay.
Then again, so many units appeal to me more now with general opening of options. Really want the GS data-slate to be good. I have 100+ GS. 60 of them being Space Hulk ones.
And so we close on another chapter of the long book known as "What could have been". It's almost like the Alien of 40k. A franchise that just keeps getting gak on. It's incredibly disappointing to see such failures not only fail to be fixed but only worsened by the sheer incompetence or otherwise ignorance of the author. The removal of the few unique and fun elements of the last book, alongside the mass of nerfs makes this such a disappointing release. I mean, this makes Codex chaos marines look like bloody Citizen Kane in comparison. How can GW feth this up so bad?
Also, if you see this post and your only response is "Stop whining", "Haters gonna hate", or "We don't know that yet!", then I'd advise you don't waste your time on making the thinly veiled ad-hom.
Symbio Joe wrote: Dang! Seems I have to buy the darn thing for the pretty pictures.
Yeah, there's some very nice new artwork in there. Although the picture in the Hive Tyrant's bestiary entry has a case of the skinny arms if you ask me.
Gloomfang wrote: As a competitive player I can this will be hard to be competitive with for a few reasons.
1) Dropped points costs mean more models. Beer and pretzles its fine, but at a tourny that can be real bad. It looks to play faster with fewer rerolls.
It also means we can squeeze in more monsters and mid-sized bugs, so it's not necessarily about having too many gaunts/gants to be able to adequately shuffle through the movement phase. One blob of 30 gaunts now (to unlock a Tervigon) isn't any more models than the 3 blobs of 10 we bought before.
Gloomfang wrote: 2) This is not the Nid codex fault, but there are a lot of other lists out there with lots of MCs now. Nidzilla used to work becuse everyone tooled up for mech. Now a lot more folks have tools and plans for 5-6 MCs.
This isn't true at all. There are only a handful of MC's seeing any play outside of Tyranids, and no army is fielding more than 3. CSM/Daemons sometimes go there with Flying DP's, but Tyranids will be capable of saturating the field with them.
Gloomfang wrote: 3) Synapse went for a good thing to be in (generally) to a very bad thing to be out of. With this codex if you kill off all the synapse you have probably just won the game.
Every competitive environment I've ever fielded my Tyranids in has faced this, no matter what edition. Good opponents always shoot down the Synapse. That hasn't changed. Besides, we now have access to more synaptic outlets in the army, some of which can have hilarious range.
Gloomfang wrote: 4) A lot of the units depend on cover saves do to the utter lack of invuln saves. In the current meta so much stuff ignores cover it is almost useless. (markerlight, wave serpents, ect).
There's really only 2 seeing hefty play that ignores cover, and you just listed them. Ignores cover is a difficult rule for everyone to deal with, not just Tyranids. Very few armies have access to invulnerable saves (Daemons not withstanding), and the ones that do come on really expensive troops that don't exactly appear in droves. So either put something in cover that isn't worth them wasting fire on, or let them pay for a rule that won't come in handy because 11 MC's are running at them, supported by 70 little critters.
Playing with the right terrain isn't about cover saves for Tyranids, it's about blocking line of sight just long enough to get close with the right units.
If Tyranids dying is a reason not to play them, then you don't understand Tyranids (or the game of 40k).
Without really playing a bunch with the new codex, list-building is always a challenge. It's not like it's been out for a year (or at all). Furthermore, it shouldn't be "easy" to build a list. That's a sign of a codex for dummies. Go play Warmachine (the iPhone of table-top games) if you want a list to build itself that easily.
I would rather have to figure out what works together instead of being told what works together.
NOTE: By 'iPhone' I mean to say that it was cool 5 years ago when no one knew how smart devices worked. Now it's still packaged as "intuitive", but really it lacks customization, horsepower, and overall functionality. It tells the user what they can do instead of the other way around. Now (almost) everyone understands the technology and wants more to do, but the iPhone is severely limited. With Warmachine, pick a caster, and that's going to tell you exactly what's competitive to pair with it (if anything is at all).
Imposter101 wrote: And so we close on another chapter of the long book known as "What could have been". It's almost like the Alien of 40k. A franchise that just keeps getting gak on. It's incredibly disappointing to see such failures not only fail to be fixed but only worsened by the sheer incompetence or otherwise ignorance of the author. The removal of the few unique and fun elements of the last book, alongside the mass of nerfs makes this such a disappointing release. I mean, this makes Codex chaos marines look like bloody Citizen Kane in comparison. How can GW feth this up so bad?
Also, if you see this post and your only response is "Stop whining", "Haters gonna hate", or "We don't know that yet!", then I'd advise you don't waste your time on making the thinly veiled ad-hom.
Oh, pants.
Yes, there are stupid ill-thought-out rules, there are a lot of nerfs, there will be a lot of readjustment, it will be a lot of hassle. But there will be some good builds. It's a challenge, which is surely why we're here. As for people complaining about moving lots of models - maybe they shouldn't have got into tyranids?
Without zoeys, ymgarls, and pods for our next game, maybe we'll use those 400-odd points for gaunts and gargoyles... should be a laugh. IN the process, maybe we'll find a way of playing we didn't know about before.
Edit: Alex, please re-post. I'm getting a strange error too, which results in apparent double posts, which disappear when you edit. And Alex, thanks for those Carnifexes - no, we did not know they were gonna nerf the Hive Guard ballistic skill!
I think the idea, "What could have been" sums up why their is so much disappointment in this codex. Nothing changed from the 5th codex for the better except for the point cost. This codex feels cheap and lazy because it is cheap and lazy. The most thought went into making synapse worse...The artifacts are laughably bad, I can't see taking any of them ever. Not even in a for fun list, because the basic upgrades are better than the artifact upgrades. The warlord traits are bad for warlord traits, which doesn't say much but at the same time speaks volumes.
Tyranids got worse with this release but will still be able to field armies just fine and still win in a noncompetitive environment. I decided that I will still play my bugs despite this codex and how sick it makes me feel to have another army being just gutted with a release, my other being BT. By that I mean gutted of any potential, all the hope there was from seeing how awesome a lot of the 6th codices have been torn out leaving me feeling just...sad. I was hoping to at least see more bio-morphs than two for basic units again, maybe not the list we had in 4th but at least something better than TWO. I wanted to see some innovation and instead I just got an FAQ update to bring the codex in line with 6th edition. The worst part is there is just nothing to be excited about with the codex. I don't care how powerful or weak it is going to be in the current meta, I care that it is just...boring and bland. There is nothing that has me excited to try out or play with, it is all the same crap I have been playing for years now with a couple of new units that are boring or are looking pretty bad. The Exocrine is boring as gak, it does one thing and it will do that one thing all game long and never deviate from point and shoot. The Haurspex looks interesting but I just don't think it will be very good.
So now I have Tyranids and SoB with FAQ codices and my BT were just gutted with being turned into black Ultramarines. It is just getting hard to get excited about 40k anymore with half of my armies being taken in a "new" direction.
NamelessBard wrote: Look, if you're a non-competitive gamer, than great. I don't think this should be the thread you should be posting in.
I can almost see your butthurt from here in the USA.
What the hell are you talking about? Because I can objectively look at the codex and decide if something is good or not does mean that I am some "cool internet slang term"? Am I going to give up this army? No. Am I going to not bring them to tournaments? No. Am I going to stop painting my tyranids? No.
Back to the real world here, I think I've settled on my list for my game on sunday (4000 points vs eldar, no apoc). As this is not a tactics thread, I'll be brief, but running flying hive tyrants, death leaper, hive guards, zoanthrope, venomthropes, tervigons outflanking, lots of gants, gaunts and garygoles, 18 spore mines!, two sets of carnifex, tyrannofex, biovores, Mawlocs. It should be a great game to really get a feel for most of these things and confirm what I've hypothesized.
The thing I'm most excited about? Spore mines. How sad is that.
My words not his: if you're a competitive gamer, the sky has fallen for nids. The changes to deployment (drop pods removed), instinctive behavior (units flee without taking casualties, or inflict casualties on themselves), psychic power access, every single artifact is useless or overcosted, and unit nerfs make this new codex utter garbage.
If you're a beer and pretzels gamer or modeler/painter, great have fun with it. Horde nids couldn't be played in tournament time limits before and the price reductions only make this worse.
I can't wait to pull this post out in a months time when people realise that the point reduction alone made Nids competitive.
Nids don't need an uber stupid artifact to make them good.
I think we'll see NIds again as much as we did when 6th first landed, they were never going to be the "Go To" dex.
There are issues that force a slightly different list i feel but i fully expect it to still have a competitive edge.
QFT Oh crap, the talking heads of the internet said something... They MUST be right....
Competitive 40k is a joke to begin with otherwise they wouldn't need to reformat the core rules every 2 months in order to hold an event so I have to laugh at the people who form opinions based on the game as if it was balanced like chess. He may as well right a review on competitive Yahtzee as far as I am concerned.
Neither of them have even read the book in it's entirety yet, let alone let it digest for a week. I still don't see the synapse thing as being as big an issue that some of these guys are.
Mock the competitive scene all you want. It won't stop the scene or culture. On my personal schedule, I can get 1 casual game a month and 3 tournament games. That's all I have time for and that's what I must prepare for. There are hundreds of players who enjoy the competitive 40k scene and invest thousands of dollars into traveling to events. Just because the game is intended for beer and pretzels basement gamers, don't belittle a group who plays it a different way.
Who needs weeks to digest this information and play test really? I keep hearing this but it's a myth. Almost every decent unit in the army got objectively worse either via point cost, removal of special rules, abilities, or wargear. Done, digested. Some models received a points reduction. Here's news from the competitive scene for you basement beer and pretzel guys: horde nids could not finish games in tournament time limits before, adding 20% more models actually makes this worse. Add in a whole new self-destructive IB system to make it worse.
How many other armies will literally self-destruct if you eliminate 4 key units? We aren't talking vacuums here. We're saying watch what happens when a 6 wave serpent or triptide list focuses down synapse on a flank on turn 1. Most of the army is ld6/7. Lurkers will flee the table 50% of the time with a failed leadership test. Feeders will eat themselves.
This army now causes more damage to itself than any army in the game. This is usually used as a balancing factor to powerful units, but everything got worse! Hormagaunts lost their rerolls of 1. Trygons lost all rerolls. Hive guard dropped in BS and went up in cost. Tervigons lost a boatload of abilities and went up in cost.
You can ride around on your white horses all day chirping about reduced costs and play testing and vacuums. It won't change the fact that they took a suffering army and made it worse. The warlord table is a joke. The psychic powers are mediocre at best with no guarantees that you can get anything good at all. The IB chart causes self-damage or fleeing 50% of the time! A grot on a quad gun can kill any of the FA fliers in 1 phase. You can just pick up a flyrant or crone the first time a single skyray looks at it.
You can cling to your denial and hyperbole all you want. It may surprise you that some hobbyists have a decent enough grasp of the game and its dynamics to come to an accurate conclusion without playing dozens of games with a new army.
Imposter101 wrote: And so we close on another chapter of the long book known as "What could have been". It's almost like the Alien of 40k. A franchise that just keeps getting gak on. It's incredibly disappointing to see such failures not only fail to be fixed but only worsened by the sheer incompetence or otherwise ignorance of the author. The removal of the few unique and fun elements of the last book, alongside the mass of nerfs makes this such a disappointing release. I mean, this makes Codex chaos marines look like bloody Citizen Kane in comparison. How can GW feth this up so bad?
We don't know that yet !
Stop whining, haters gonna hate.
Digriz636 wrote: Venomethropes giving shrouded is quite cool.
Could you exploit intervening model rule by putting some gaunts in front of carnifexes and have venomthropes give them shrouded resulting in 3+ cover in open terrain?
Well, that's perfectly legal.
I wouldn't call it an exploit though, it's just the rules. You don't call it an exploit when someone takes two shots with a bolter at less than 12" range either.
hyv3mynd wrote: You can cling to your denial and hyperbole all you want. It may surprise you that some hobbyists have a decent enough grasp of the game and its dynamics to come to an accurate conclusion without playing dozens of games with a new army.
Exceptionally well said. Nothing more to add really.
Don't know what yet, exactly? We've all seen the book now. We know what the rules are. Anyone with a basic grasp of the rules can infer how the units work (and especially what's changed), and can see the deficiencies of this book. "We don't know" might've been a valid excuse a week ago, even a few days ago - but not now.
MC follow cover saves as if they were normal infantry. The "intervening unit" rule doesn't care whether your model is 1% obscured or 99% obscured if even the smallest part of the model is obscured by an interveneing unit you get a 5+ cover save.
hyv3mynd made a nice summary, not really anything to add to it.
Redemption wrote: If the gaunt covers 25% of the Carnifex, of course. They are quite top heavy.
I personally stack 4 gants (or whatever unit is inbetween) on top of each other to check. If it goes above the model, then cover for the one behind, if not, then no cover.
brassangel wrote: It also means we can squeeze in more monsters and mid-sized bugs, so it's not necessarily about having too many gaunts/gants to be able to adequately shuffle through the movement phase. One blob of 30 gaunts now (to unlock a Tervigon) isn't any more models than the 3 blobs of 10 we bought before.
I am just saying that swarms (like the 100+ model ones some people are talking about) might be completive, but not practical in a tourney sense.
This isn't true at all. There are only a handful of MC's seeing any play outside of Tyranids, and no army is fielding more than 3. CSM/Daemons sometimes go there with Flying DP's, but Tyranids will be capable of saturating the field with them.
Yes we can field more of them, but ours are not as durable as theirs are. The firepower required taking down a riptide or wraithknight would kill 2-3 of our MCs. And those handful of MCs are in a lot of competitive builds.
brassangel wrote: Every competitive environment I've ever fielded my Tyranids in has faced this, no matter what edition. Good opponents always shoot down the Synapse. That hasn't changed. Besides, we now have access to more synaptic outlets in the army, some of which can have hilarious range.
Lets see what happens if we compare 5th codex to 6th codex units outside of synapse shall we:
Termigaunts:
5th edition: Fail IB and lurk. Can still contest and hold objectives.
6th edition: Fail IB and have a 50% chance of breaking. Broken units cannot hold or contest objectives. If the unit is near the board edge they will probably run off of it.
So in 5th I could park a unit of gaunts on a backfield objective and go on my merry way. I let the go out of synapse all the time. In 6th you can’t do that. In fact just being out of synapse is a 25% per turn chance of having your termigaunts break.
Hormaguants:
5th edition: Fail IB. Run towards the enemy to get into CC. Probably what I would have done with them anyway. As of right now if they are out of IB and fail they get FC (for today and tomarrow.)
6th edition: Fail IB. Have a 33.3% chance to WIPEOUT HALF THE UNIT. 20 hormagaunts taking 20 S3 hits with a Sv6 is about 8-9 dead horms. If you roll bad you might then have to take a roll to see if they break do to the casualties caused by their own unit.
In 5th losing your synapse was annoying because you lost control of your units. In 6th it will literally destroy your army.
As for the more outlets? Lets review.
We lost one of the only 2 IC synapse creatures we had (PoM). The one IC we have left went up in price 50%. We lost DoM who was synapse. Tervigons as troop choices for synapse are more expensive especially with the termigaunt tax. In all we have LESS synapse.
We do have some very expensive ways of boosting the range though. I am looking at those options.
brassangel wrote: There's really only 2 seeing hefty play that ignores cover, and you just listed them. Ignores cover is a difficult rule for everyone to deal with, not just Tyranids. Very few armies have access to invulnerable saves (Daemons not withstanding), and the ones that do come on really expensive troops that don't exactly appear in droves. So either put something in cover that isn't worth them wasting fire on, or let them pay for a rule that won't come in handy because 11 MC's are running at them, supported by 70 little critters.
Lets see: all template weapons do (baleflamer anyone?), Bone Cannon, JoWW, flash gits, spore mines. I do agree that it is an issue for all armies. However all those armies also have things like transports to hide in and shuffle across the board rather than footslogging it.
And out off those 11MCs and 70 little critters your talking about how many of them are going to be getting shot at? The synapse ones.
How many synapse creatures have invulnerables? One (Zoans).
How many synapse creatures have 2+ armour saves? Zero.
And as covered above we can see what happens to those other critters when the synapse creatures die.
brassangel wrote: If Tyranids dying is a reason not to play them, then you don't understand Tyranids (or the game of 40k).
Them dying isn’t a problem. Back in 94 I used to call it my Doritos list (crunch all you want we’ll make more). Not going to stop playing them either. However having the only Warlords in all of 40K that don’t have access to either a 2+ or invuln save or some form of EW is a huge barrier to overcome when your army can literaly eat itself without your warlord.
brassangel wrote: Without really playing a bunch with the new codex, list-building is always a challenge. It's not like it's been out for a year (or at all). Furthermore, it shouldn't be "easy" to build a list. That's a sign of a codex for dummies. Go play Warmachine (the iPhone of table-top games) if you want a list to build itself that easily.
Yes it is and it is a part that I really enjoy. I was merely stating that Nid players have penalties that other armies do not have and a lot more artificial restrictions placed on them without any benifit. When orks (close to horms in points costs) start to have “’E Looks Tasty” on their animosity charts and or 30 man IG blobs (close to termis in points costs) can break and run off the table because the Commissar in the next unit over dies and space marine captains loose access to terminator armor then you can start saying “All the armies are balanced”.
Give it 3 months and there will be whatever version of screamerstar or whatever min/maxed list this codex can pump out.
Don't know what yet, exactly? We've all seen the book now. We know what the rules are. Anyone with a basic grasp of the rules can infer how the units work (and especially what's changed), and can see the deficiencies of this book. "We don't know" might've been a valid excuse a week ago, even a few days ago - but not now.
S-
We know we've taken some serious hits. But yes, people will need time to work out tactics, and new combinations, and it will take some time for the potential of the new codex to be revealed.
The cliché hat the Eldar codex was initially slagged off was a truism; one of the main thread suggesting it was rubbish was linked recently, and all the moaning inspired this thread. (Do I think the 'nid codex will be competitive with Eldar? No. But we've stomped on Marines for a couple years, maybe we still will).
We lost one of the only 2 IC synapse creatures we had (PoM). The one IC we have left went up in price 50%. We lost DoM who was synapse. Tervigons as troop choices for synapse are more expensive especially with the termigaunt tax. In all we have LESS synapse.
My words not his: if you're a competitive gamer, the sky has fallen for nids. The changes to deployment (drop pods removed), instinctive behavior (units flee without taking casualties, or inflict casualties on themselves), psychic power access, every single artifact is useless or overcosted, and unit nerfs make this new codex utter garbage.
If you're a beer and pretzels gamer or modeler/painter, great have fun with it. Horde nids couldn't be played in tournament time limits before and the price reductions only make this worse.
I can't wait to pull this post out in a months time when people realise that the point reduction alone made Nids competitive.
Nids don't need an uber stupid artifact to make them good.
I think we'll see NIds again as much as we did when 6th first landed, they were never going to be the "Go To" dex.
There are issues that force a slightly different list i feel but i fully expect it to still have a competitive edge.
QFT Oh crap, the talking heads of the internet said something... They MUST be right....
Competitive 40k is a joke to begin with otherwise they wouldn't need to reformat the core rules every 2 months in order to hold an event so I have to laugh at the people who form opinions based on the game as if it was balanced like chess. He may as well right a review on competitive Yahtzee as far as I am concerned.
Neither of them have even read the book in it's entirety yet, let alone let it digest for a week. I still don't see the synapse thing as being as big an issue that some of these guys are.
Mock the competitive scene all you want. It won't stop the scene or culture. On my personal schedule, I can get 1 casual game a month and 3 tournament games. That's all I have time for and that's what I must prepare for. There are hundreds of players who enjoy the competitive 40k scene and invest thousands of dollars into traveling to events. Just because the game is intended for beer and pretzels basement gamers, don't belittle a group who plays it a different way.
Who needs weeks to digest this information and play test really? I keep hearing this but it's a myth. Almost every decent unit in the army got objectively worse either via point cost, removal of special rules, abilities, or wargear. Done, digested. Some models received a points reduction. Here's news from the competitive scene for you basement beer and pretzel guys: horde nids could not finish games in tournament time limits before, adding 20% more models actually makes this worse. Add in a whole new self-destructive IB system to make it worse.
How many other armies will literally self-destruct if you eliminate 4 key units? We aren't talking vacuums here. We're saying watch what happens when a 6 wave serpent or triptide list focuses down synapse on a flank on turn 1. Most of the army is ld6/7. Lurkers will flee the table 50% of the time with a failed leadership test. Feeders will eat themselves.
This army now causes more damage to itself than any army in the game. This is usually used as a balancing factor to powerful units, but everything got worse! Hormagaunts lost their rerolls of 1. Trygons lost all rerolls. Hive guard dropped in BS and went up in cost. Tervigons lost a boatload of abilities and went up in cost.
You can ride around on your white horses all day chirping about reduced costs and play testing and vacuums. It won't change the fact that they took a suffering army and made it worse. The warlord table is a joke. The psychic powers are mediocre at best with no guarantees that you can get anything good at all. The IB chart causes self-damage or fleeing 50% of the time! A grot on a quad gun can kill any of the FA fliers in 1 phase. You can just pick up a flyrant or crone the first time a single skyray looks at it.
You can cling to your denial and hyperbole all you want. It may surprise you that some hobbyists have a decent enough grasp of the game and its dynamics to come to an accurate conclusion without playing dozens of games with a new army.
Excuse me if I prefer to formulate my one opinions on a product rather then play sycophant to "big Whigs" like MVB who makes broad generalizations about said product before ever even using it. I read his review and it was hit and miss at best. I beg you to reread it objectively and not laugh when he dooms over just about everything while trying to underplay things like Carnifex's dropping in cost by 25% and complaining that they used to cost 85pts in 4th. Wow, astute observation! A candy bar was 5c when my grandfather was a kid, doesn't mean they should be now
BTW I'll mock the competitive PLAYERS all I want so long as they make arrogant claims and insist on being the end of the road when it comes to playing the game well. Emphasis being that I wasn't mocking tournies, but the types who attend and take it FAR to seriously as if you can micro manage a system that was built from the ground up with literally zero balance. Further yet, when they make such claims with zero gathered data, this is the model of ignorance. But hey, they have blogs so they must be right .... Nope just loud.
PS I love how certain people continue to site references to the obviously broken units, sorry MOST broken units in the game. Will riptides and WS be a problem? Sure, but the answer never should have been hey lets create an even bigger problem to combat the first mistake! See D weapons if you don't believe me.
Don't know what yet, exactly? We've all seen the book now. We know what the rules are. Anyone with a basic grasp of the rules can infer how the units work (and especially what's changed), and can see the deficiencies of this book. "We don't know" might've been a valid excuse a week ago, even a few days ago - but not now.
Read the post I was answering to (the full post, not the quotation), and you'll understand . [edit]Ninja'd Anyway, Imposter101 reverse-psychologied me into posting that. [/edit]
~ Symbiotic Aiming: If does not move Exocrine During the movement phase , gain +1 to its ability to * something * ( balistic skill )
- Haruspex WS3 BS3 S6 T6 W5 I3 A3 S3+ L7
Biomorphs : Crushing Claws , prehensile tongue ( Weapon found on pg 65 . ) , Acid blood
Special Rules: IB ( Feed) , Fearless
~ Beast feeding : If a Haruspex inflicts at least one wound not saved in the Assault phase , at the end of phase one gets wound which you have lost . ( Gains one lost wound)
~ Ravenous Hunger : During the turn that a Haruspex charges each unsaved wound it inflicts in combat allows you to immediately make an additional attack . Further attacks can not generate more attacks . The Haridas causing instant death only generate an additional attack (Any idea to what this sentence means? ) . Wounds inflicted by hammer Fury , acid blood or tail biomorphic not benefit from this special rule .
hyv3mynd wrote: You can cling to your denial and hyperbole all you want. It may surprise you that some hobbyists have a decent enough grasp of the game and its dynamics to come to an accurate conclusion without playing dozens of games with a new army.
Exceptionally well said. Nothing more to add really.
Anecdotal at best. Hyperbole would be my complete submission to hyv3mynds, oh wait I mean MVB's opinion.
The nerf on termagaunts not moving after spawning is not really a nerf unless you don't plan on moving the Tervigon in the same direction. They don't lose out on actual movement, now it's just move terv 6 spawn up to 6 rather than spawn up to 6 move 6 move terv 6, just streamlining for speed. Many listed nerfs are not as bad as many people are making out- not that some a're not bad - just they are being blown out of proportion, or misunderstanding how it will actually impact on the game.
Iracundus wrote: It seems almost as if GW was more about applying nerfs. Then when it came to applying some improvements, scratched their heads at a loss and settled for a few minor point decreases and characteristic fiddling (that nonetheless does little to change the overall usefulness of the unit).
Is there anyone actually passionate about the Tyranids on the design team or are they "phoning it in"?
I honestly believe that they have no idea what they want Nids to be, or how they want them to play. This is the issue with making an army that is such an outlier for everything else. That, and this gak has Crud's earmarks all over it
Red Corsair wrote: Anecdotal at best. Hyperbole would be my complete submission to hyv3mynds, oh wait I mean MVB's opinion.
Who is this MVB you keep crapping on about?
Anyway, it doesn't make him wrong. As I (and he, and others) have said, we've seen the rules and we can infer how units work just by looking at them. You would be foolish, ignorant or both to ignore the significant downgrade Tyranids have received (just the IB rules alone, let alone all the other amazing things like more expensive yet worse Hive Guard, the fact that Warriors, Lictors and 'Stealers are still junk, 24" ranged "living artillery" and so on). The continued insistence that we "don't know anything yet" just rings if wilful blindness.
Nem wrote: The nerf on termagaunts not moving after spawning is not really a nerf unless you don't plan on moving the Tervigon in the same direction. They don't lose out on actual movement, now it's just move terv 6 spawn up to 6 rather than spawn up to 6 move 6 move terv 6, just streamlining for speed. Many listed nerfs are not as bad as many people are making out- not that some a're not bad - just they are being blown out of proportion, or misunderstanding how it will actually impact on the game.
How are they being blown out of proportion? And which ones?
Also, that's only one of several issues with the Tervigon. Your forgetting the whole factor of killing even more Termaguants, no biomancy, having to roll for psychic powers and the fact that in order to properly use the model you need to spend an additional 150 points,
One of the biggest problems with this new Synapse/Instinctual Behaviour thing is that it appears to be all downside and no benefits.
Synapse was an interesting concept that has always struggled to balance the good with the bad. On one hand, Synapse should provide a benefit to the things under it, yet at the same time a penalty to those that are outside of its influence. In years past we've seen Synapse grant EW, but then really not do all that much "bad" to things that are outside of Syanpse. Now we've flipped that completely around (typical GW pendulum-style rules writing, as always) where we have no benefit for being in Syanpse and lots and lots of bad stuff (nearly 50% chance of units running away or just losing half their number) for being outside of it.
I think the current IB could be perfectly fine if being within Syanpse had some decent buffs (benefits to Deny the Witch, re-roll charge/run as the direct will of the Hive Mind pushes the creatures forward, even Eternal Warrior). Sadly such middle of the road ideas always pass GW by. It's either one or the other with them. Never somewhere in between.
Also, that's only one of several issues with the Tervigon. Your forgetting the whole factor of killing even more Termaguants, no biomancy, having to roll for psychic powers and the fact that in order to properly use the model you need to spend an additional 150 points,
this is a pretty good example of the sky-is-falling rhetoric - that you've doubled the gaunt tax, which goes from 50(10 x 5) to 120 (30 x 4), an increase of 70, not 150. And those 70 points actually add something to your army. This was plainly done to make 'nids more swarmy - there's a good justification for it.
Yes, your other points mostly stand, but like much of this thread, you're overdramatising the problems by about 100 per cent.
Some awesome new minis here. The harpie is probably my favourite out of the lot. Shame about the lictors not getting a boost but silver lining... Biovores get an extra attack!
Lol. More Google translate crap. Think I'll stop here.
Carnifex special rule (suckily traslated):
Living Ram: when this miniature hammer attack charges into anger instead of just 1 attack. (Any idea what this means?)
Zoanthrope - Special Rules:
- Synapse Creature, Phycic brotherhood, very bulky, Shadow in the warp (Awesome that these guys have SITW.)
- 3 + Invul. Save
- Psychic progeny: Offspring of Zoanthrope follows all the rules of a Brotherhood of Psychics, except that it has Mastery level of 2. In addition, if a progeny of use Zoanthropes Warp Lightning Power (pg. 69), effected many shots as Zoanthropes have in this progeny.
For example: A Progeny three Zoanthropes that manifeste successfully power Warp Ray considered that both the burst profile as the launch is Assault 3
My words not his: if you're a competitive gamer, the sky has fallen for nids. The changes to deployment (drop pods removed), instinctive behavior (units flee without taking casualties, or inflict casualties on themselves), psychic power access, every single artifact is useless or overcosted, and unit nerfs make this new codex utter garbage.
If you're a beer and pretzels gamer or modeler/painter, great have fun with it. Horde nids couldn't be played in tournament time limits before and the price reductions only make this worse.
I can't wait to pull this post out in a months time when people realise that the point reduction alone made Nids competitive.
Nids don't need an uber stupid artifact to make them good.
I think we'll see NIds again as much as we did when 6th first landed, they were never going to be the "Go To" dex.
There are issues that force a slightly different list i feel but i fully expect it to still have a competitive edge.
QFT Oh crap, the talking heads of the internet said something... They MUST be right....
Competitive 40k is a joke to begin with otherwise they wouldn't need to reformat the core rules every 2 months in order to hold an event so I have to laugh at the people who form opinions based on the game as if it was balanced like chess. He may as well right a review on competitive Yahtzee as far as I am concerned.
Neither of them have even read the book in it's entirety yet, let alone let it digest for a week. I still don't see the synapse thing as being as big an issue that some of these guys are.
Mock the competitive scene all you want. It won't stop the scene or culture. On my personal schedule, I can get 1 casual game a month and 3 tournament games. That's all I have time for and that's what I must prepare for. There are hundreds of players who enjoy the competitive 40k scene and invest thousands of dollars into traveling to events. Just because the game is intended for beer and pretzels basement gamers, don't belittle a group who plays it a different way.
Who needs weeks to digest this information and play test really? I keep hearing this but it's a myth. Almost every decent unit in the army got objectively worse either via point cost, removal of special rules, abilities, or wargear. Done, digested. Some models received a points reduction. Here's news from the competitive scene for you basement beer and pretzel guys: horde nids could not finish games in tournament time limits before, adding 20% more models actually makes this worse. Add in a whole new self-destructive IB system to make it worse.
How many other armies will literally self-destruct if you eliminate 4 key units? We aren't talking vacuums here. We're saying watch what happens when a 6 wave serpent or triptide list focuses down synapse on a flank on turn 1. Most of the army is ld6/7. Lurkers will flee the table 50% of the time with a failed leadership test. Feeders will eat themselves.
This army now causes more damage to itself than any army in the game. This is usually used as a balancing factor to powerful units, but everything got worse! Hormagaunts lost their rerolls of 1. Trygons lost all rerolls. Hive guard dropped in BS and went up in cost. Tervigons lost a boatload of abilities and went up in cost.
You can ride around on your white horses all day chirping about reduced costs and play testing and vacuums. It won't change the fact that they took a suffering army and made it worse. The warlord table is a joke. The psychic powers are mediocre at best with no guarantees that you can get anything good at all. The IB chart causes self-damage or fleeing 50% of the time! A grot on a quad gun can kill any of the FA fliers in 1 phase. You can just pick up a flyrant or crone the first time a single skyray looks at it.
You can cling to your denial and hyperbole all you want. It may surprise you that some hobbyists have a decent enough grasp of the game and its dynamics to come to an accurate conclusion without playing dozens of games with a new army.
What a brilliant post and a great synopsis of the new Tyranids. I salute you.
So... Imperial Guard are next. Who wants to roll a D6 to see what happens? 1: The weakest and least imaginative codex ever designed by GW. 2-5: Small improvements combined with vast quantities of squandered potential and "buy more models" design decisions. 6: A competitive and interesting book greeted with a mixed response due to the beer and pretzel crowd wanting something completely different and unexplainable. I'm excited.
Red Corsair wrote: Anecdotal at best. Hyperbole would be my complete submission to hyv3mynds, oh wait I mean MVB's opinion.
Who is this MVB you keep crapping on about?
Anyway, it doesn't make him wrong. As I (and he, and others) have said, we've seen the rules and we can infer how units work just by looking at them. You would be foolish, ignorant or both to ignore the significant downgrade Tyranids have received (just the IB rules alone, let alone all the other amazing things like more expensive yet worse Hive Guard, the fact that Warriors, Lictors and 'Stealers are still junk, 24" ranged "living artillery" and so on). The continued insistence that we "don't know anything yet" just rings if wilful blindness.
MVB is the TO for the NOVA. Hyv3mynd posted a link to his opinions which he has adopted rather then make his own which I happen to aggree with some points, but would rather wait and play a bit before making braod generalizations.
Yes Tervigons and hiveguard got worse, but YOU would have to be foolish not have seen this coming. They were idiotically under cost before.
Also, that's only one of several issues with the Tervigon. Your forgetting the whole factor of killing even more Termaguants, no biomancy, having to roll for psychic powers and the fact that in order to properly use the model you need to spend an additional 150 points,
this is a pretty good example of the sky-is-falling rhetoric - that you've doubled the gaunt tax, which goes from 50(10 x 5) to 120 (30 x 4), an increase of 70, not 150. And those 70 points actually add something to your army. This was plainly done to make 'nids more swarmy - there's a good justification for it.
Yes, your other points mostly stand, but like much of this thread, you're overdramatising the problems by about 100 per cent.
I made a mathematical error. The response is to create a poor straw man at the end of your post. I'd avoid that in the future.
Red Corsair wrote: Yes Tervigons and hiveguard got worse, but YOU would have to be foolish not have seen this coming. They were idiotically under cost before.
Wait, so you acknowledge that these units got worse but now somehow it's our fault that we "didn't see it coming"?
Don't strain your back moving those goal posts, ok?
Nem wrote: The nerf on termagaunts not moving after spawning is not really a nerf unless you don't plan on moving the Tervigon in the same direction. They don't lose out on actual movement, now it's just move terv 6 spawn up to 6 rather than spawn up to 6 move 6 move terv 6, just streamlining for speed. Many listed nerfs are not as bad as many people are making out- not that some a're not bad - just they are being blown out of proportion, or misunderstanding how it will actually impact on the game.
So being able to spawn and assault to spawn and not assault is low impact? Have you ever played with tervigons? I got in 100 games or so with them in the last book and that's a huge deal.
How about tervigons not sharing toxin sacs, adrenal glands, or their leadership value with nearby gaunts anymore? Low impact too? Oh wait they balanced it with a 35pt price increase and doubled the range of their synaptic explosion. And went from 3 psy power rolls to 1.
Definitely overreacting.
I'm convinced the people holding out and defending the codex are the ones who haven't read all the actual leaks and real rules yet.
Google Translate is giving something in Spanish->English as "grasping forceps". I almost prefer reading the spanish version.
Seriouspost time... are we really sure Warriors are still terrible? Obviously they're not going to be awesome and game-changing now, but hear me out.
1) Venomthropes got a nice overhaul, and it's easily possible to get 2+ or 3+ cover from these guys.
2) Synapse is more important than ever thanks to IB, and Warriors are the cheapest source of Synapse.
3) Warriors are scoring, and after Tervigons have become a liability capable of wiping out half your army decent Troop options are in short supply. It's not like you can seriously use Rippers or 'stealers.
3) They extend SitW and disrupt enemy psykers.
4) The Venom Cannon is a bit cheaper, and lost the damage table penalty.
5) Flesh Hooks and Fleet are now an option on Warriors, making it more realistic to engage enemies in cover.
6) You can outflank a Warrior brood with a Prime into a threatening position.
I'm not saying these units are going to win any tournament, but perhaps there will be a greater demand for them now.
Since I'm being quoted, I did caveat at the very beginning of the article
Here's my initial thoughts on it, keeping in mind all of this will be revised / may change based upon holding and playing with the total codex (don't lose your minds yet folks) ...
It may all change based upon playtest and all that, but the look we get based upon a near total leak is of a codex that didn't really change in any deep-seeded way, where the units made cheaper either got worse or are still bad, where the units that were buffed are still bad and where units that were good are now worse and typically more points-intensive (i.e., hive guard, tervigon, etc).
The worst thing is it shows really poor design method, because it doesn't actually even encourage the purchase of new models. The best early look builds use primarily models that people would have already owned, even if some of them get worse in the process. That's an upside, b/c casually gaming with Tyranids won't really change or cost anything mandatory for anyone. So there's that.
Nem wrote: The nerf on termagaunts not moving after spawning is not really a nerf unless you don't plan on moving the Tervigon in the same direction. They don't lose out on actual movement, now it's just move terv 6 spawn up to 6 rather than spawn up to 6 move 6 move terv 6, just streamlining for speed. Many listed nerfs are not as bad as many people are making out- not that some a're not bad - just they are being blown out of proportion, or misunderstanding how it will actually impact on the game.
So being able to spawn and assault to spawn and not assault is low impact? Have you ever played with tervigons? I got in 100 games or so with them in the last book and that's a huge deal.
How about tervigons not sharing toxin sacs, adrenal glands, or their leadership value with nearby gaunts anymore? Low impact too? Oh wait they balanced it with a 35pt price increase and doubled the range of their synaptic explosion. And went from 3 psy power rolls to 1.
Definitely overreacting.
I'm convinced the people holding out and defending the codex are the ones who haven't read all the actual leaks and real rules yet.
This is almost like the Aliens: Colonial Marines situation.
The game was a turd, but the die hard fans who pre-ordered the super expensive editions of the game have to defend and polish said turd. Here it's the same thing with some people here I believe.
Red Corsair wrote: Anecdotal at best. Hyperbole would be my complete submission to hyv3mynds, oh wait I mean MVB's opinion.
Who is this MVB you keep crapping on about?
Anyway, it doesn't make him wrong. As I (and he, and others) have said, we've seen the rules and we can infer how units work just by looking at them. You would be foolish, ignorant or both to ignore the significant downgrade Tyranids have received (just the IB rules alone, let alone all the other amazing things like more expensive yet worse Hive Guard, the fact that Warriors, Lictors and 'Stealers are still junk, 24" ranged "living artillery" and so on). The continued insistence that we "don't know anything yet" just rings if wilful blindness.
Come on. There's always someone at every tactica or other debate about competitive units and armies telling others to simply play better, and that the reason people aren't having success with some universally craptastic units is because they don't know what they are doing Somehow to these people 40K is so deep and complicated that in the right hands every army is a GT winner, and noone can form an opinion about a unit or an army book without playing with it atleast 76 times.
“Gobble”: If the Red Horror hits with at least four of his attacks (except prehensile pincer attack) in a single combat phase, you may choose a single enemy infantry miniature, jump infantry or normal infantry in base to base contact with the Red Terror to try to engulf.
If you decide to gobble a miniature, do not resolve his four normal attacks. Instead, the chosen model must overcome one invulnerable save (if equipped) or be removed from play as a casualty. You do not have to decide beforehand if trying to swallow a model. Can not Gobble a miniature with a very big special rule or extremely bulky. If a unit doesn’t have a model he can swallow, the four attacks are resolves as per norm.
Can't see this being particularly useful as sything talons no longer allow you to re roll all to-hits. Very rarely will all four attacks hit.
Nem wrote: The nerf on termagaunts not moving after spawning is not really a nerf unless you don't plan on moving the Tervigon in the same direction. They don't lose out on actual movement, now it's just move terv 6 spawn up to 6 rather than spawn up to 6 move 6 move terv 6, just streamlining for speed. Many listed nerfs are not as bad as many people are making out- not that some a're not bad - just they are being blown out of proportion, or misunderstanding how it will actually impact on the game.
So being able to spawn and assault to spawn and not assault is low impact? Have you ever played with tervigons? I got in 100 games or so with them in the last book and that's a huge deal.
How about tervigons not sharing toxin sacs, adrenal glands, or their leadership value with nearby gaunts anymore? Low impact too? Oh wait they balanced it with a 35pt price increase and doubled the range of their synaptic explosion. And went from 3 psy power rolls to 1.
Definitely overreacting.
I'm convinced the people holding out and defending the codex are the ones who haven't read all the actual leaks and real rules yet.
Oh look more anecdotal evidence you say? And without trying the new rules.
The funny thing is I am a text book pessimist. But on the other hand I guess I am too much a student to succumb to blind generalizations before testing and data gathering. Anyone who claims they don't need a single game to grasp the new codex has too little wisdom and too much ego methinks.
Red Corsair wrote: Anecdotal at best. Hyperbole would be my complete submission to hyv3mynds, oh wait I mean MVB's opinion.
Who is this MVB you keep crapping on about?
Anyway, it doesn't make him wrong. As I (and he, and others) have said, we've seen the rules and we can infer how units work just by looking at them. You would be foolish, ignorant or both to ignore the significant downgrade Tyranids have received (just the IB rules alone, let alone all the other amazing things like more expensive yet worse Hive Guard, the fact that Warriors, Lictors and 'Stealers are still junk, 24" ranged "living artillery" and so on). The continued insistence that we "don't know anything yet" just rings if wilful blindness.
MVB is the TO for the NOVA. Hyv3mynd posted a link to his opinions which he has adopted rather then make his own which I happen to aggree with some points, but would rather wait and play a bit before making braod generalizations.
Yes Tervigons and hiveguard got worse, but YOU would have to be foolish not have seen this coming. They were idiotically under cost before.
Imagine have two people having the same opinions! I happen to agree with 90% of what MVB wrote as well. So, I guess if I say Tervigons and hive guard got worse, I have adopted your opinion rather than make my own. Can we get a list of who said what opinion first so we can make sure to have different ones.
Hyv3mynd is a dude who's really active in the blogging and tournament scene. He's pretty knowledgeable about the game. If my opinions are confirmed by other's opinions, than that increases the likelihood that my thesis is correct. Perhaps you've heard of peer review.
This is really, really disappointing. I normally try to look at the bright side of things (I don't even think the AS codex is that bad), but unless there's something significant that is being missed, this codex doesn't have a chance of being competitive. The previous codex wasn't that powerful to begin with, and in this new version, only three units have gotten strictly better (venomthropes, biovores, and mawlocs), while many other things have either not changed or have gotten significantly less powerful. Synapse is more important than ever, but every single unit that provides synapse has either been nerfed in some way or hasn't changed from a non-competitive previous incarnation. I wasn't expecting this to be some super-powerful codex, but I'm not even sure that this butchered mess is even worth playing at all. I play for fun, but losing all the time isn't much fun.
@ Therion. Speaking of the imperial guard book. How many tanks do they have in the current book that are actually missing models right now? Because unless they get new ones I think the guard book might end up losing a lot of options.
I expect the guard book to change about as much as this current Nid book just did. More of a side grade, some serious WTFs but since guard are a shooting based army they will come out of it just fine.
I wont be playing nids competitively. I never did before and this book isn't going to make me start. But I will definitely still play them as a for fun army every now and then. especially since I just bought the heirophant. The ability to use it as a 20 man transport that is insanely hard to stop from reaching your lines really helps out in a nid army. Most of our super heavies are pretty awesome honestly. And since fortifications are worthless(to us) you might as well take what you can get.
Were they? Have you seen many nid armies around? MVB is pretty much the only guy I can name who was even using nids a lot in 6e, and if he's given up, that's a pretty terrible sign. If these units were so good, don't you think nids would have become a bit more ubiquitous? At the end of the day, T6 3+ with whatever just isn't very hard to kill. Compare the Tervigon to the Riptide. The Riptide is faster, more durable, has much better shooting, has far better options, can be taken as an ally for multiple armies and can be buffed astronomically. Tervigons are kinda tough MCs which pass out upgrades to one specific unit, and also produces 3D6 not-quite-as-good-as-a-GEQ per turn (with a ~45% chance to stop doing so every turn). They're good, sure, but nids trade an awful lot to have that, and have no other way to hide any form of troops, nor go above 6 troops slots, nor ally to get amazing psychic powers. They have to stay alive of course to ensure the little GEQ didn't evaporate to any old shooting. Without Biomancy, specifically Iron Arm AND with no guaranteed catalyst AND not handing out biomorphs AND a point increase AND more termagants needed to make them troops, they're totally crippled. There's nerfing something people THINK is too good, then there's beating it so hard it's unplayable. Hell, if they'd remained 160 points I think people would argue it's not even worth bothering.
As for Hive Guard, they've never been undercosted. An absolute necessity in 5e as the only long ranged AT, but they're in a crowded slot, cost a good chunk and have limited brood sizes. Nothing undercosted at all; again, this is worse without allies, as they have no way to boost the slots.
Tervigons may have once been undercosted, but they're nowhere close in the current meta. The nerf to them and the loss of Biomancy have pretty much single handedly rendered this book trash, to show you how much of an impact it's had. If you think the let down of 5e nids was bad, wait until 2 weeks after the release of this bombshell.
Therion wrote: Come on. There's always someone at every tactica or other debate about competitive units and armies telling others to simply play better, and that the reason people aren't having success with some universally craptastic units is because they don't know what they are doing Somehow to these people 40K is so deep and complicated that in the right hands every army is a GT winner, and noone can form an opinion about a unit or an army book without playing with it atleast 76 times.
I miss the days when someone would respond to a bad list or Codex with "Use Tactics!", as if that meant anything at all.
I think some people will need to see it on the tabletop -- AND what can happen when you throw Onslaught into the mix -- to understand.
ing 
. But like Cthululs Spy said, against anyone but Tau it should be a benefit.
But hey, it's 140 pts...fairly disposable, right?
