streamdragon wrote: Sounds like the rulebook will be extremely bare bones: how to move, how to fight, possibly how to do morale. Things like Special Rules (e.g., unbreakable, regeneration, flaming attacks, etc.) will probably be on the unit cards themselves.
Sounds about right, and I can think of several (now defunct FWIW) games that worked the same way.
Really unsure how to take the simpler / spread out / free rules news, but it makes a ton of sense from a marketing perspective, and it really falls in line with GW playing to their strengths - i.e. their vastly superior plastic kits, not their rules writing (or fluff any longer, I suppose).
Maybe they've finally realized that virtually every competitor gives away their core rules for free and their cost of entry was simply too high. Maybe even done some market research !
I'm def in favor of the general rules being available for free online. Hopefully 40k does the same thing.
If they could find a way to get all of the generic rules online for free (even if this means stripping all lore and backrgound information from them) and redesign their army boxes into self contained individual starter sets with self contained rules in the $50-75 range so new players had a reasonable way to enter the hobby it could be bright future to look forward to.
Especially if they introduce some kind of 'beta forum' so players can provide feedback on experimental rules.
Or realised that 99% of the core rules are ignored by special rules anyway. Do a zero sum on the rules and start from s level playing playing field again!
mikhaila wrote: So, just got off the phone with my GW rep. They are really going big on this one. I've been offered quite a few nice incentives to support the launch, and will be receiving free copies of the box, demo armies, credit on old product, posters, prizes, etc. Thursday I'll receive a full copy of the rules with i will take home and eat with ketchup and spend a day digesting. Nice incentives across the board for retailers that take a bunch of them, support the launch, (and are currently paying their bills, of course.)
Info I was told:
-It's not 9th edition WFB, its a totally different game. There is no 9th edition coming. There is no huge rule book coming. Age of Sigmar is the main product.
-Most of the leaks on the internet are wrong. I'll be able to confirm this Thursday. In particular the bit about different formations is incorrect.
-The 96 page book is a hobby book, painting, history, how to play examples etc. The 4 pages of rules is indeed the rules. Laminated.
-Each unit in the game has a War Scroll that has the rules specific to that unit. So rules for each artillery piece will be on that unit's scroll, each monster will have a scroll, etc.
-The 4 pages of rules and all War Scrolls will be free and online July 4th at midnight. This will be a living document.
lets say that again, since some of the words like "free" may seem surprising to some folks
-The 4 pages of rules and all War Scrolls will be free and online July 4th at midnight. This will be a living document[u]
-Cost is 125.00 in the US
-There may be additional books in the near future, hobbyist/collectors items. Not at all needed for the game, and may not even have the rules in the them. Age of Sigmar: The Big Book of pictures and how to paint....etc. There is no HC big rulebook like we had in WFB, no 3 rule books in a slipcover like in 40k. Just the Age of Sigmar box. And the rules for that box are online and free along with rules for all the old models in your army.
-Supposedly doesn't matter how things are based.
-Scales well from skirmish to large battles. Leave your models ranked and on bases if you like.
Looking forward to reading it all on Thursday.
Setting the record straight once again!
Mayhaps I'll swing by sunday to take a look, but I don't know if there's anything in the box set I need. I like how much the rules cost though and as long as I can keep playing with my goblinses and skinks I'll be happy.
I'm feeling pessimistic about this, personally. Someone mentioned it sounds too good to be true and I'm in that camp. They say it's a "different game" not intended to be Fantasy's new edition... but that strikes me as a bit of doublespeak, like sure it's not the new WFB but we're still not continuing with that product line.
Now, that said, is that necessarily a bad thing? Fantasy players will be understandably put out, sure, but honestly... I think it isn't a bad move. Phase out the bloated, ancient games they have, and bring in something new and fresh. There's only so much patching you can do before it's more feasible to start from scratch.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: If the rules come with each unit, then that has to be the end of army books and all the fluff that went with them
And how does this effect Australia? Will they get rules with the unit boxes?
Even if they stopped doing annual army books I doubt they'll stop doing the supplement books with formations / detachments, wargear, warlord traits, spells etc in them.
streamdragon wrote: Sounds like the rulebook will be extremely bare bones: how to move, how to fight, possibly how to do morale. Things like Special Rules (e.g., unbreakable, regeneration, flaming attacks, etc.) will probably be on the unit cards themselves.
Sounds about right, and I can think of several (now defunct FWIW) games that worked the same way.
Really unsure how to take the simpler / spread out / free rules news, but it makes a ton of sense from a marketing perspective, and it really falls in line with GW playing to their strengths - i.e. their vastly superior plastic kits, not their rules writing (or fluff any longer, I suppose).
- Salvage
I'm okay with it, as it reminds me of gathering unit cards for 40k waaaaay back in the day when I first started playing. Similar-ish to the new way of doing 40k armies by formations and such.
I just want to know how my skaven are going to fare. I'm kind of hoping this isn't a "we'll have backwards compatibility, but they won't get anything new" situation. I have plenty of models to assemble on round bases if its worthwhile, but meh. Tempted to shave down my square bases into octagons. Close enough to a circular base, but still able to rank up if I want to.
Mostly I'm curious about magic. Will magic be in the 4 pages, or will it be covered on a by-unit basis. I feel like it almost certainly has to be the second option.
Did they happen to say what the war scrolls actuly are?
Cards or a full page sorta thing ?
Sounds like they are at least looking to try some new stuff.
But interest here has been whole negative so I don't think I will be getting anything unless the rules are great.
no such internet forum is ever positive. Don't let the naysayers here dissuade you from enjoying a game
Personally, I think AoS seems to be at least an attempt to address many common complaints about WFB, including high model counts, stale fluff, lack of a good starter army, too much grim dark, etc.
There is no such thing as too much grim dark!
This.
Who complained too much grimdark in whfbbtw? Warmahordes players? World of Warcraft tough guys? In 40k it's usually Tau players and I have the impression that some of them wandered into wrong game, dont really get it and would love to see the universe turned into another sleek, serious, reasonable and full of contrast sf. Mass Effect is that way.
Sounds really good. And I can attest to the game going much smoother when all the special rules are on the cards.
Wrath of Kings plays super fast and easy and I don't think we opened the rulebook after the first game because all the relevant info is on cards. Only thing we use the rulebook for now is "objectives".
I've got high hopes for this. I'm going to go round with most of my stuff I think. I'm really excited for this. Also wish Mikhaila had had a dwarf book to finish off my 8th edition hardbacks but the other 5 books were great
Flashman wrote: Kind of sounds like the X Wing approach where all the rules/tokens etc come with the model you buy.
They'd already started it with End Times.
As somebody not familiar with X-Wing, where does the fluff come from? Is it in the box? Yes, everybody's heard about Star wars , but suppose you were that rare person who had been raised by an extremely reclusive Amazonia tribe.
I don't expect you to have the answer to where the AOS fluff will feature, but if army books are going out the window
Can we just agree something now? The first ten dudes who are able to access the GW site on July 4th at midnight before the server commits ritual suicide, please re-host the files.
Flashman wrote: Kind of sounds like the X Wing approach where all the rules/tokens etc come with the model you buy.
They'd already started it with End Times.
As somebody not familiar with X-Wing, where does the fluff come from? Is it in the box? Yes, everybody's heard about Star wars , but suppose you were that rare person who had been raised by an extremely reclusive Amazonia tribe.
I don't expect you to have the answer to where the AOS fluff will feature, but if army books are going out the window
You get specific rules for units with each miniature you buy.
So, just the basic mechanics of how to play are in the rulebook.
But as said, it's not like X-Wing is a complex game, and even the page count for that is somewhat larger.
4-pages? Nevermind losing tactical moves, flanking attacks, skirmishing units, this sounds like it's going to be extremely simplified.
I’m not going to buy the box, but I can take the time to download and read free rules and dataslates for my old armies. Unless they suck outrageously, I might even try to get some games in.
And if I get back into playing, I might just buy some new stuff. Well played GW. The cost of rules has been a major barrier to play. Getting rid of it might just be what it takes for them to live.
Flashman wrote: Kind of sounds like the X Wing approach where all the rules/tokens etc come with the model you buy.
They'd already started it with End Times.
As somebody not familiar with X-Wing, where does the fluff come from? Is it in the box? Yes, everybody's heard about Star wars , but suppose you were that rare person who had been raised by an extremely reclusive Amazonia tribe.
I don't expect you to have the answer to where the AOS fluff will feature, but if army books are going out the window
You get specific rules for units with each miniature you buy.
So, just the basic mechanics of how to play are in the rulebook.
But as said, it's not like X-Wing is a complex game, and even the page count for that is somewhat larger.
4-pages? Nevermind losing tactical moves, flanking attacks, skirmishing units, this sounds like it's going to be extremely simplified.
Yeah, but what about the fluff, Pacific?
I want fluff damn it!!! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!
I´d like GW to go the way Privateer Press goes with their Forces of X books. They have the background and all the rules of their specific faction but you don´t have to get the book since all models come with their cards anyway. I´m pretty intrigued...
I’ve not read a lot of the Black Library novels, but it seems that there is an endless stream of them crossing the shelves of my local bookstore. It seems like that might the option for fluff junkies? Of course, it would be nice to have good summaries for new players to help find their niche.
Imagine if a box of troops, a box of elites and a monster or warmachine is plenty to play a normal sized game... doesn't that make you want to collect all the factions?
Nvs wrote: I'm def in favor of the general rules being available for free online. Hopefully 40k does the same thing.
If they could find a way to get all of the generic rules online for free (even if this means stripping all lore and backrgound information from them) and redesign their army boxes into self contained individual starter sets with self contained rules in the $50-75 range so new players had a reasonable way to enter the hobby it could be bright future to look forward to.
Especially if they introduce some kind of 'beta forum' so players can provide feedback on experimental rules.
streamdragon wrote: I just want to know how my skaven are going to fare. I'm kind of hoping this isn't a "we'll have backwards compatibility, but they won't get anything new" situation. I have plenty of models to assemble on round bases if its worthwhile, but meh. Tempted to shave down my square bases into octagons. Close enough to a circular base, but still able to rank up if I want to.
Those feels. I usually run 100+ stormvermin in various forms, are those still going to be a thing? I'm not opposed to rebasing everbody, but I am extremely curious what horde armies do in this brave new world of easy buy in ... I can't think of an army in 40k that really uses big mobs of things to do something useful, apart from conga-lining to grab multiple objectives, and even then those mobs work because they've got LD modifiers to keep them around as they get butchered (IG blobs, Ork mobs, Nid swarms). Mostly they get butchered and are slow.
Mostly I'm curious about magic. Will magic be in the 4 pages, or will it be covered on a by-unit basis. I feel like it almost certainly has to be the second option.
A bullet from that long, largely invalidated German rumor came to mind:
– magic spells are all one-use only, when you use it, you have to discard the card
He had also claimed most spells affected units of X type, which would indeed give a bonus to playing 'in faction' and not totally unbound. But who knows.
lord_blackfang wrote: Imagine if a box of troops, a box of elites and a monster or warmachine is plenty to play a normal sized game... doesn't that make you want to collect all the factions?
But then... slowly... the game size creeps up...
Pretty much this. And if they could find a way to get a leader, a box of troops, and a machine/monster in a box for $50-75 they'll be able to attract new players with a moderately acceptable buy-in cost.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: If the rules come with each unit, then that has to be the end of army books and all the fluff that went with them
Don't be silly. At some point, GW will compile everything into beautiful full-color hardback reference books for armies. They will be army books like we've all known, and GW will charge a pretty penny for them.
Did they happen to say what the war scrolls actuly are?
Cards or a full page sorta thing ?
Sounds like they are at least looking to try some new stuff.
But interest here has been whole negative so I don't think I will be getting anything unless the rules are great.
no such internet forum is ever positive. Don't let the naysayers here dissuade you from enjoying a game
Being positive is hard when GW own marketing go against trying to get it going here. Wasn't internet that's the issue, but people where I am playing are completely out of the GW cercle now. And the sgimarites have been met with indifference at best, KHORNE is actuly getting negative responses as it isn't very popular here.
I welcome positive news, but GW needs to get its marketing in shape if it realy wants this new game to take off I feel :0
It hurts my little soul to see GW drag itself along so often.
lord_blackfang wrote: Imagine if a box of troops, a box of elites and a monster or warmachine is plenty to play a normal sized game... doesn't that make you want to collect all the factions?
But then... slowly... the game size creeps up...
Pretty much this. And if they could find a way to get a leader, a box of troops, and a machine/monster in a box for $50-75 they'll be able to attract new players with a moderately acceptable buy-in cost.
Also the Spanish rumour said that you can mix factions as you want which means a totally new way of collecting armies.
ShaneTB wrote: GW stores will be demoing the game on Saturday.
Love to know how they're planning on doing this across the pond. Aren't all the shops closed on that particular day?
That might have been true back in the 1970s. Nowadays most retail shops close on Thanksgiving and Christmas... and even large retailers are chipping away at those two.
Boss Salvage wrote: Those feels. I usually run 100+ stormvermin in various forms, are those still going to be a thing? I'm not opposed to rebasing everbody, but I am extremely curious what horde armies do in this brave new world of easy buy in ... I can't think of an army in 40k that really uses big mobs of things to do something useful, apart from conga-lining to grab multiple objectives, and even then those mobs work because they've got LD modifiers to keep them around as they get butchered (IG blobs, Ork mobs, Nid swarms). Mostly they get butchered and are slow.
A bullet from that long, largely invalidated German rumor came to mind:
– magic spells are all one-use only, when you use it, you have to discard the card
He had also claimed most spells affected units of X type, which would indeed give a bonus to playing 'in faction' and not totally unbound. But who knows.
- Salvage
So long slave mobs, I barely knew ye. Good bye Stormvermin, so long and thanks for all the stabbing death.
OTOH, it looks like we're moving to a character driven game engine.
Because skaven characters are totes on par with other armies' characters!
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: If the rules come with each unit, then that has to be the end of army books and all the fluff that went with them
Don't be silly. At some point, GW will compile everything into beautiful full-color hardback reference books for armies. They will be army books like we've all known, and GW will charge a pretty penny for them.
That maybe, but will they be available in Australia?
lord_blackfang wrote:Oh, is it time for the "we don't know any rules, but I'm sure my faction is screwed" phase yet?
Sorry, meant more as general apprehension because I currently don't know any rules. The game was described as hero led warbands (or something to that effect), which thematically/historically hasn't really been a skaven strong point.
I don't like having to wait!
Edit: and the slave/stormvermin thing is me not wanting to deal with 50+ model units individually anymore. I do enough of that in 40k with Orks, IG AND Tyranids. I got by in fantasy because of movement trays.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Thing is, though, if this turns out to be a mix and match of whatever units you want in your force, regardless of faction, then...
Why bother with factions at all?
You don't get to choose who got stuck in the bubbles kind of fluff?
Seriously though... Just because you have the options to do something it does not mean that you have to do it. My O&G will remain O&G because its something I prefer.
Actually thinking about it if you find an opponent with an army formation that you do not find acceptable it will be more fun to beat the crap out of him with your "pure" army.
SJM wrote: The main thing I dislike is the move towards snap fit models, being bit of conversionist I miss the bits!
It's a starter box. They've always been snap fit.
There's allegedly 4 months of AoS releases coming. I am sure you'll there'll be plenty of Tactical/Devastastor/Assault/Elite/Elite-Assault Sigmarine boxes with 27 weapon options and 43 different golden heads, but only 5 pairs of legs and 5 torsos.
streamdragon wrote:So long slave mobs, I barely knew ye. Good bye Stormvermin, so long and thanks for all the stabbing death.
OTOH, it looks like we're moving to a character driven game engine.
Because skaven characters are totes on par with other armies' characters!
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Thing is, though, if this turns out to be a mix and match of whatever units you want in your force, regardless of faction, then...
Why bother with factions at all?
I have a feeling that the Grey Seer and Verminlord will still make regular appearances in ratty lists, though the real winner may well be the Warlock Engineer With Obligatory Doomrocket cropping up in whatever army wants some firepower. Likewise the WLC, Stormfriends, and merhaps even the long neglected weapon teams? Warp-punk guns for everybody disordery / destructiony / chaoticy! (I lost track which pseudo-faction people think Skaven are going to fall into )
Bull0 wrote: Doesn't really seem reasonable to dismiss rules nobody's read yet as a "minimal afterthought".
Here's hoping, but it reeks of "hey we don't care how you actually play just buy these minis"
It fits entirely in line with GW's investor statements. Collectible figures first and foremost, rules a distant concern.
To be honest, I read it as there are simple base rules to pick up, then perhaps each new unit comes with additional rules to expand them. Off course this is just my interpretation and could be total rubbish.
NAVARRO wrote: Seriously though... Just because you have the options to do something it does not mean that you have to do it. My O&G will remain O&G because its something I prefer.
Actually thinking about it if you find an opponent with an army formation that you do not find acceptable it will be more fun to beat the crap out of him with your "pure" army.
Amen Navvy. Though I left 40k because people around me universally stopped being interested in Playing Cool Things, instead of Obviously Good Things
Bull0 wrote: Doesn't really seem reasonable to dismiss rules nobody's read yet as a "minimal afterthought".
Here's hoping, but it reeks of "hey we don't care how you actually play just buy these minis"
It fits entirely in line with GW's investor statements. Collectible figures first and foremost, rules a distant concern.
To be honest, I read it as there are simple base rules to pick up, then perhaps each new unit comes with additional rules to expand them. Off course this is just my interpretation and could be total rubbish.
And the whole 'rules are free on the website' thing kinda puts paid to this.
1) 4 Pages of rules, downloadable.
2) War Scrolls - each individual unit box comes with it's own rules, as rumored previously.
3) Rules released on July 4th, including rules for old units and models.
4) Base shape and size are completely irrelevant. Base your models how you like, measure from model to model. No movement trays necessary.
5) No more rule books or army books.
6) Unbound sounds like a thing. "You can play with your favorite miniatures, you don't have to be tied down to one army"
7) No points. (yep, no points). Speculation is that you agree how many of each unit type you and your opponent will use (So, an HQ, 2 troops, two fast attack. That's language used in the thread. Don't know if it's his or the rep's, so salt).
8) You can begin play as small as you like, and it scales up infinitely.
BeardMonk wrote:Fresh off twitter. Some retailers who have just spoken to their reps. @WAAAGHgoblin @Rhellion
1) Hero Phase, Movement phase, Shooting Phase, Charge Phase, Combat Phase, Battleshock Phase
2) Magic and Command abilities are done in the Hero Phase
3) You fight people within 3"... or people you have charged.
4) Free rules. This Saturday. PDF form on GW site. 10am central time. Army books are now called warScrolls, also free.
5) No points. I guess it is determined by model count. If opponent outnumbers, lower count gets special rules. (I don't understand it either)
6) Said we can still use ranked up units but doesn't sound like it gives a bonus.
7) Doesn't sound like you need a general. Said you can take any two box sets off the wall and play a game.
Thanks for passing on the info. So do those incentives mean you too will be going really big on this one as well despite the existing event that day? I'm going to guess yes (why say no to free stuff as long as you have the staff?) but figured I'd ask.[i]
Yep, figuring it out now, and did a big post on our facebook page. But basically....
Demo games from the 4th on
Midnight release on friday the 10th
Quite a few events that weekend
Starting a league for Saturdays
Free tournament on the 12th
Free paint, glue, and hobby supplies for modeling
raffles, prizes, etc
and
Age of Sigmar will be 90. 00 for people picking the game up at the store from Friday midnight until close on Sunday. (Or for those who can't make it and pre-pay.)
Thinking about it mtg rules could probably fit on 1 sheet of a4 but the additional rules on the cards add depth to the game.
The way I see it could possibly work is that your characters have buffs that effect its factions troops, maybe their are characters that interact with two factions. Maybe you could add units from other factions that have synergy with each other I.e orcs and ogres that would give further tactical options.
by keeping the rules online or on unit cards in the boxes you could simply add singular allied units to your force to try out new options, rather than having to jump in and by a new army book.
The idea of factions would certainly open up a much more interesting allies mechanic than in 40k.
Did they happen to say what the war scrolls actuly are?
Cards or a full page sorta thing ?
Sounds like they are at least looking to try some new stuff.
But interest here has been whole negative so I don't think I will be getting anything unless the rules are great.
no such internet forum is ever positive. Don't let the naysayers here dissuade you from enjoying a game
Speaking as a naysayer: despite my eternal burning hatred(joke, before anyone reflexively bunches their panties) for whoever decided to murder the Old World, and my utter distaste for the Sigmarines both in concept and aesthetic as Fantasy models, fair play to GW - rules wise this is exactly what they needed to do.
A system that scales well from Mordheim-esque skirmish up to 40K standard game-ish size that's free to download, potentially supported in future not by an endless cycle of glorified hardback FAQs but by optional campaign books that provide extra fluff/scenarios/etc is exactly the kind of thing people who criticise their normal business model have been clamouring for for years. It's a shame the rumoured "formations" system is apparently a bust, as that would have really added to larger games IMO, but we can always hope they put out something along those lines at a later date as a supplement(and in the meantime those lucky enough to have a regular group can throw together some houserules), and it would also be nice to see them put out a really detailed campaign system ala Mordheim.
We'll have to see how this goes. If the rules really are free I'll give them a go with my existing models, whether I can stick with it long-term depends on how easy it is to ignore the crappy new fluff, whether Sigmarines actually do become "fantasy Space Marines"(in that you end up playing against them constantly), and of course whether they're actually any good.
Both players having the same number of slots and units avilable is some way to balance the game, it's pretty crude though and requires a lot of standarisation.
Are you excited enough to think this could be a renewal of the GW you USED to know?
Back when your stores overflowed with happy gamers?
Your plan sounds pretty damn smart with some real energy behind it, so I have a feeling you are truly jazzed up..... and I am almost thinking about trying to work in a visit.
Best of Luck to you!
Now can we all get back to comparing the Sigmarites to Space Marines please?
I am missing it already.
Both players having the same number of slots avilable ad same number of units is some way to balance the game, it's pretty crude though and requires a lot of standarisation.
Works well in Wrath of Kings. You just have slots. At most you have "Ranks of 1 or 2" with rank 2's just taking up two of the previously mentioned slots. That said it'll be interesting to see what they do.
And you can't beat the price for a GW game and most of us already have a plethora of models.
Both players having the same number of slots avilable ad same number of units is some way to balance the game, it's pretty crude though and requires a lot of standarisation.
There's a lot of noise coming out alongside the good stuff, and I have a feeling this no points thing is just noise. Imagine what a mess that would be. I think some people just like to stoke up drama, like the whole "none of your existing models are going to be compatible" thing people were putting around a couple of days ago.
edlowe wrote: Thinking about it mtg rules could probably fit on 1 sheet of a4 but the additional rules on the cards add depth to the game.
The way I see it could possibly work is that your characters have buffs that effect its factions troops, maybe their are characters that interact with two factions. Maybe you could add units from other factions that have synergy with each other I.e orcs and ogres that would give further tactical options.
by keeping the rules online or on unit cards in the boxes you could simply add singular allied units to your force to try out new options, rather than having to jump in and by a new army book.
The idea of factions would certainly open up a much more interesting allies mechanic than in 40k.
I quite like the idea that an ogre general gives ogres a bonus, for example. Yes, you can choose whatever you like in your force, but if you want the bonuses, pick troops from the same faction.
By all means agree to one HQ and two troops. Then your opponent pulls out Nagash to use against your Goblin Warboss
????? I have heard nothing, nor could I fathom, a game without points costs.
I expect that the points for each unit will be on their Warscroll. Hopefully not full page sized. I want small cards like the old epic versions. Printing my own and reducing the size if i have to before gluing to cardboard for an old school feel
Works well in Wrath of Kings. You just have slots. At most you have "Ranks of 1 or 2" with rank 2's just taking up two of the previously mentioned slots. That said it'll be interesting to see what they do.
And you can't beat the price for a GW game and most of us already have a plethora of models.
Well, that is a point system, even if the only two point values in the range are 1 and 2.
1) 4 Pages of rules, downloadable. 2) War Scrolls - each individual unit box comes with it's own rules, as rumored previously. 3) Rules released on July 4th, including rules for old units and models. 4) Base shape and size are completely irrelevant. Base your models how you like, measure from model to model. No movement trays necessary. 5) No more rule books or army books. 6) Unbound sounds like a thing. "You can play with your favorite miniatures, you don't have to be tied down to one army" 7) No points. (yep, no points). Speculation is that you agree how many of each unit type you and your opponent will use (So, an HQ, 2 troops, two fast attack. That's language used in the thread. Don't know if it's his or the rep's, so salt). 8) You can begin play as small as you like, and it scales up infinitely.
BeardMonk wrote:Fresh off twitter. Some retailers who have just spoken to their reps. @WAAAGHgoblin @Rhellion
1) Hero Phase, Movement phase, Shooting Phase, Charge Phase, Combat Phase, Battleshock Phase 2) Magic and Command abilities are done in the Hero Phase 3) You fight people within 3"... or people you have charged. 4) Free rules. This Saturday. PDF form on GW site. 10am central time. Army books are now called warScrolls, also free. 5) No points. I guess it is determined by model count. If opponent outnumbers, lower count gets special rules. (I don't understand it either) 6) Said we can still use ranked up units but doesn't sound like it gives a bonus. 7) Doesn't sound like you need a general. Said you can take any two box sets off the wall and play a game.
Did they happen to say what the war scrolls actuly are?
Cards or a full page sorta thing ?
Sounds like they are at least looking to try some new stuff.
But interest here has been whole negative so I don't think I will be getting anything unless the rules are great.
no such internet forum is ever positive. Don't let the naysayers here dissuade you from enjoying a game
Speaking as a naysayer: despite my eternal burning hatred(joke, before anyone reflexively bunches their panties) for whoever decided to murder the Old World, and my utter distaste for the Sigmarines both in concept and aesthetic as Fantasy models, fair play to GW - rules wise this is exactly what they needed to do.
A system that scales well from Mordheim-esque skirmish up to 40K standard game-ish size that's free to download, potentially supported in future not by an endless cycle of glorified hardback FAQs but by optional campaign books that provide extra fluff/scenarios/etc is exactly the kind of thing people who criticise their normal business model have been clamouring for for years. It's a shame the rumoured "formations" system is apparently a bust, as that would have really added to larger games IMO, but we can always hope they put out something along those lines at a later date as a supplement(and in the meantime those lucky enough to have a regular group can throw together some houserules), and it would also be nice to see them put out a really detailed campaign system ala Mordheim.
We'll have to see how this goes. If the rules really are free I'll give them a go with my existing models, whether I can stick with it long-term depends on how easy it is to ignore the crappy new fluff, whether Sigmarines actually do become "fantasy Space Marines"(in that you end up playing against them constantly), and of course whether they're actually any good.
I just dislike people are making uninformed opinions and others may read that and take it not for what it is(naysaying) and actually read into it without further investigation. I am hoping this game goes well, im hoping that all of my fantasy stuff is still viable, truly viable, and im hoping more people jump on board. The only reason is simply ill have more people to play
BTW, there are games out there with the pedigree to suggest that Unit Sizes are not important, and it works.
Warlord games BLACK POWDER rules for example class units as SMALL or LARGE.
There is some bonus for LARGE.
And the book mentions that for players who like the look of large blocks, you can use them.
But the PRECISE number of models doesn't matter... there is some aesthetic value for those who care.
Like I will still stick to the fluff that I know and love when it comes to O&G armies.
I would never field a 10 strong unit of Goblins or Spearman.
It would look way too weedy.
Which games do not use a points system in which the abilities of individual models can vary as much as that between an End Times legendary hero and your bog standard goblin boss?
1) 4 Pages of rules, downloadable.
2) War Scrolls - each individual unit box comes with it's own rules, as rumored previously.
3) Rules released on July 4th, including rules for old units and models.
4) Base shape and size are completely irrelevant. Base your models how you like, measure from model to model. No movement trays necessary.
5) No more rule books or army books.
6) Unbound sounds like a thing. "You can play with your favorite miniatures, you don't have to be tied down to one army"
7) No points. (yep, no points). Speculation is that you agree how many of each unit type you and your opponent will use (So, an HQ, 2 troops, two fast attack. That's language used in the thread. Don't know if it's his or the rep's, so salt). 8) You can begin play as small as you like, and it scales up infinitely.
BeardMonk wrote:Fresh off twitter. Some retailers who have just spoken to their reps. @WAAAGHgoblin @Rhellion
1) Hero Phase, Movement phase, Shooting Phase, Charge Phase, Combat Phase, Battleshock Phase
2) Magic and Command abilities are done in the Hero Phase
3) You fight people within 3"... or people you have charged.
4) Free rules. This Saturday. PDF form on GW site. 10am central time. Army books are now called warScrolls, also free.
5) No points. I guess it is determined by model count. If opponent outnumbers, lower count gets special rules. (I don't understand it either) 6) Said we can still use ranked up units but doesn't sound like it gives a bonus.
7) Doesn't sound like you need a general. Said you can take any two box sets off the wall and play a game.
From here Mikaila
Something I will be checking on right now, could be a huge game changer.
Both players having the same number of slots avilable ad same number of units is some way to balance the game, it's pretty crude though and requires a lot of standarisation.
Works well in Wrath of Kings. You just have slots. At most you have "Ranks of 1 or 2" with rank 2's just taking up two of the previously mentioned slots. That said it'll be interesting to see what they do.
And you can't beat the price for a GW game and most of us already have a plethora of models.
Maybe it will work. Maybe it's just a simplistic kiddie game.
4 page rules and rules with units can be potentialy good as well but it all depends on the tactical depth of the game, and we already had rumors that it's less tactical than LotR. Then I dont know what happens with my dear grimdark.
Which games do not use a points system in which the abilities of individual models can vary as much as that between an End Times legendary hero and your bog standard goblin boss?
You're showing an awful lack of imagination if you can't work out at least one way to manage it.
Both players having the same number of slots avilable ad same number of units is some way to balance the game, it's pretty crude though and requires a lot of standarisation.
Works well in Wrath of Kings. You just have slots. At most you have "Ranks of 1 or 2" with rank 2's just taking up two of the previously mentioned slots. That said it'll be interesting to see what they do.
And you can't beat the price for a GW game and most of us already have a plethora of models.
So I bring my Skaven warlord and you bring Nagash... and that's supposed to be balanced?
Which games do not use a points system in which the abilities of individual models can vary as much as that between an End Times legendary hero and your bog standard goblin boss?
You're showing an awful lack of imagination if you can't work out at least one way to manage it.
Ah, so you have no response and instead resort to attacking my apparent lack of imagination.
I'm sure there will be categories like Major Hero, Minor hero (where a major hero is equal to 2 minor heroes, or similar).
Then unit size balances troops. For a slot you might get 10 goblins, 5 Halberdier, or 3 Chaos Warriors, each unit being roughly equal in effectiveness on the tabletop.
Both players having the same number of slots avilable ad same number of units is some way to balance the game, it's pretty crude though and requires a lot of standarisation.
Works well in Wrath of Kings. You just have slots. At most you have "Ranks of 1 or 2" with rank 2's just taking up two of the previously mentioned slots. That said it'll be interesting to see what they do.
And you can't beat the price for a GW game and most of us already have a plethora of models.
Maybe it will work. Maybe it's just a simplistic kiddie game.
4 page rules and rules with units can be potentialy good as well but it all depends on the tactical depth of the game, and we already had rumors that it's less tactical than LotR. Then I dont know what happens with my dear grimdark.
I'm cautiously pessimistic.
Less tactical then LOTR? Lotr is/was the MOST tactical game of all 3 big games. It is SUPER easy to learn but difficult to master. If this ruleset is similar to LOTR then we are all in luck since that is a very tight and simple ruleset that allows for tons of tactics.
Which games do not use a points system in which the abilities of individual models can vary as much as that between an End Times legendary hero and your bog standard goblin boss?
You're showing an awful lack of imagination if you can't work out at least one way to manage it.
Ah, so you have no response and instead resort to attacking my apparent lack of imagination.
You're a lazy reader, too. Wrath of Kings has been mentioned before you even asked.
X Hero slots.
Y Special slots.
Z Troop slots.
Each selection is balanced against all others in the same category. This might mean that a Troop of Skaven or Goblins is 10 models and a Troop of WoC is 3 models.
Also, everyone needs to stop freakin' assuming that stats will stay the same. For all you know, a Goblin Boss can solo 8 Bloodthirsters.
Historicals can function without points as you can attempt to approximate the force disposition of actual historical events, and additionally structure the scenario around that (as very rarely do two even forces meet in real life), but unless GW plans on releasing the complete history of this new world for use to recreate then it's not going to work here.
On the other hand if the worst comes to the worst, it shouldn't be too hard to rough out a formula once we're given the stats for everything. Base it around the 'basic' human statline at X points, +/-Y per increase/decrease relative to that, +/-Z for special rules.
docdoom77 wrote: I'm sure there will be categories like Major Hero, Minor hero (where a major hero is equal to 2 minor heroes, or similar).
Then unit size balances troops. For a slot you might get 10 goblins, 5 Halberdier, or 3 Chaos Warriors, each unit being roughly equal in effectiveness on the tabletop.
If's far from impossible to do.
I want my deathstar 10x10 grave guard block dammit
judgedoug wrote: Since GW identifies themselves as a collectors figurine company first and foremost, it appears they have done just that with Warhammer.
Expensive collectible figures with minimal rules as an afterthought.
That's my take on it, as well. They've swallowed their own hype about making collectible toys rather than wargames, and the rules are just included for those (they can only assume small number of people) who actually want to play games with them.
Both players having the same number of slots avilable ad same number of units is some way to balance the game, it's pretty crude though and requires a lot of standarisation.
Works well in Wrath of Kings. You just have slots. At most you have "Ranks of 1 or 2" with rank 2's just taking up two of the previously mentioned slots. That said it'll be interesting to see what they do.
And you can't beat the price for a GW game and most of us already have a plethora of models.
Maybe it will work. Maybe it's just a simplistic kiddie game.
4 page rules and rules with units can be potentialy good as well but it all depends on the tactical depth of the game, and we already had rumors that it's less tactical than LotR. Then I dont know what happens with my dear grimdark.
I'm cautiously pessimistic.
Less tactical then LOTR? Lotr is/was the MOST tactical game of all 3 big games. It is SUPER easy to learn but difficult to master. If this ruleset is similar to LOTR then we are all in luck since that is a very tight and simple ruleset that allows for tons of tactics.
Sure but it's supposedly less tactical. How much less? Doesnt take much to ruin tactical play.
mikhaila wrote: But does make upgrading troops, adding equipment, banners, magic etc much more difficult.
Are 4 chaos warriors all the same points, no matter what weapons or marks? Or are their no weapons or marks?
Could be you have basic army war scrolls and bonus cards with the latter being additional options such as weapons or magic items. Pre game you agree how many war scrolls/cards each player will be using.
The war scrolls balance each other out or there could be penalties for taking powerful characters e.g. Nagash is equivalent to 5 war scrolls.
So I bring my Skaven warlord and you bring Nagash... and that's supposed to be balanced?
According to the rumors, all the units and rules are being redone. Though the "base rules" are only four pages long, if they are doing each and every unit in the current fantasy line, that is a ton of new rules.
If they truly are redoing everything, then any previous experience with power levels of particular units (like nagash) wouldn't be relevant in the new system.
if USR's, weapons, and magic lore aren't included in that 4 pages of rules, and instead printed in the war scrolls then I think you could fit most of the existing WHFB rules on 4 pages in all honesty.
Sure it is possible to make a game work without having point cost. But I not see any avantage in replacing them with another system to balance the strenght of an army.
Both players having the same number of slots avilable ad same number of units is some way to balance the game, it's pretty crude though and requires a lot of standarisation.
Works well in Wrath of Kings. You just have slots. At most you have "Ranks of 1 or 2" with rank 2's just taking up two of the previously mentioned slots. That said it'll be interesting to see what they do.
And you can't beat the price for a GW game and most of us already have a plethora of models.
Maybe it will work. Maybe it's just a simplistic kiddie game.
4 page rules and rules with units can be potentialy good as well but it all depends on the tactical depth of the game, and we already had rumors that it's less tactical than LotR. Then I dont know what happens with my dear grimdark.
I'm cautiously pessimistic.
Less tactical then LOTR? Lotr is/was the MOST tactical game of all 3 big games. It is SUPER easy to learn but difficult to master. If this ruleset is similar to LOTR then we are all in luck since that is a very tight and simple ruleset that allows for tons of tactics.
Sure but it's supposedly less tactical. How much less? Doesnt take much to ruin tactical play.
Lotr rules are quite short actually. The book is big but not a ton ruleswise and the ability to mix and match forces of all good or all evil really gives you endless combos which is fun since you can be competitive with many different lists. Its about roleplayers rather then all around beatstick units. Its creating the synergy in the army as a whole
The only ones that I am aware of are historical games which are heavily based around scenario play. Even then there are usually some kind of suggested 'tournament' points system. The giant, huge, monstrous thing here though is balance.
There is almost no chance that GW will be able to effectively balance a points free game given that they can't manage to do it with a venerable points based system.
I'm not trying to be contrarian here, but people keep talking about Age of Sigmar like they'll be able to use their Goblin Bosses and Skaven and such in the new game. Is there a reliable source for this information? Or is it just pure conjecture at this point?
Perhaps it doesn't matter what a model has; there are no upgrades and it's flat stats for the unit. Allowing people to model but not causing confusion. But that doesn't seem likely...
I'm guessing we'll get:
4 page core rules
Scenarios + extras in the big book in the box
Warscrolls for all units
"Living FAQs"*
*If it's all planned to be digital then maybe they'll be more likely to update/correct stuff. Perhaps this is a studio design workaround when others don't like corrections to printed goods. We'll, again, see...
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Jambles wrote: I'm not trying to be contrarian here, but people keep talking about Age of Sigmar like they'll be able to use their Goblin Bosses and Skaven and such in the new game. Is there a reliable source for this information? Or is it just pure conjecture at this point?
All units are getting Warscrolls to convert them over. Whether it generalises units/models together is to be seen (i.e. "Skaven troop melee" & "Dwarf long range").
EDIT: Also, the core stat types might be changing. So if it says "3+" for BS there's no more charts to consult. And leadership will be morale - roll D6 and add losses, lose that many wounds over your melee. And run will be move an additional D6 instead of shooting or charging.
Jambles wrote: I'm not trying to be contrarian here, but people keep talking about Age of Sigmar like they'll be able to use their Goblin Bosses and Skaven and such in the new game. Is there a reliable source for this information? Or is it just pure conjecture at this point?
All units are getting Warscrolls to convert them over. Whether it generalises units/models together is to be seen (i.e. "Skaven troop melee" & "Dwarf long range").
Jambles wrote: I'm not trying to be contrarian here, but people keep talking about Age of Sigmar like they'll be able to use their Goblin Bosses and Skaven and such in the new game. Is there a reliable source for this information? Or is it just pure conjecture at this point?
All units are getting Warscrolls to convert them over. Whether it generalises units/models together is to be seen (i.e. "Skaven troop melee" & "Dwarf long range").
Okay, but where did you read about that?
From the store managers/reps posting what they've found out today. There might have even been a copy of the press release here but this thread is growing quick.
Jambles wrote: I'm not trying to be contrarian here, but people keep talking about Age of Sigmar like they'll be able to use their Goblin Bosses and Skaven and such in the new game. Is there a reliable source for this information? Or is it just pure conjecture at this point?
yes, scroll back a few [ages for the retailer info flyer, it specifies all old models will be useable (so at least in some form they will be)
The more I read the more I am interested, I do not see the no points cost thing being a problem if all units have data cards anyway as I assume there will presumably be some sort of power level to the cards.
Might even be tempted now, if there's dwarves about.
a four page rule system could be good, if thats just the core mechanics, and with everything skirmish based movement rules are a lot lighter.
Also if every unit gets a rules card, well there are a lot of rules that can go on the cards and out of the core.
No points.. can actually see that working, your 'choice' varies, so you could get say 20 goblins, or clanrats, or perhaps 4 knights or something - in effect you have points but not by individual models - its all unit by unit, then the models are skirmish - think how SAGA does it, seems to work.
Not in the least interested in the starter models but the rules sound interesting if they are this light, think about it.
Movement? becomes "you can move 'x' inches in any direction, you can't get within 2" of an enemy without declaring you will fight them. Perhaps a line on terrain being half rate, another that you can run instead of shooting to move again - thats about it - put the 'x' on the unit card, cavalry maybe get an extra, maybe you can go further if you will end in combat - if its half a page its overdone.
Ranged combat is similar, score to hit, few modifiers, close combat again similar - make one of the four pages a reference sheet with tables and you can get the core of the game probably onto two sides - leaving two sides for how characters and moral works.
Magic? its all on the spell and character cards.
Could be more streamlined than LoTR easily, and by putting rules on the unit cards they can provide a lot of flavour decently easily.
Actually interested, more so than for another rulebook thats hard to lift and in need of wheels.
Also perhaps speaks of GW having a desire to make supporting the game a lot cheaper, downloadable rules for current models, new stuff its in the box, get the core mechanics working simply and there isn't much to go wrong/FAQ
Jambles wrote: I'm not trying to be contrarian here, but people keep talking about Age of Sigmar like they'll be able to use their Goblin Bosses and Skaven and such in the new game. Is there a reliable source for this information? Or is it just pure conjecture at this point?
yes, scroll back a few [ages for the retailer info flyer, it specifies all old models will be useable (so at least in some form they will be)
Cool cool, this thread is going too fast, I must have missed it!
Jambles wrote: I'm not trying to be contrarian here, but people keep talking about Age of Sigmar like they'll be able to use their Goblin Bosses and Skaven and such in the new game. Is there a reliable source for this information? Or is it just pure conjecture at this point?
Do we have anything OTHER than conjecture to go by on much of ANYTHING about AoS?
You're a lazy reader, too. Wrath of Kings has been mentioned before you even asked.
X Hero slots.
Y Special slots.
Z Troop slots.
Each selection is balanced against all others in the same category. This might mean that a Troop of Skaven or Goblins is 10 models and a Troop of WoC is 3 models.
Also, everyone needs to stop freakin' assuming that stats will stay the same. For all you know, a Goblin Boss can solo 8 Bloodthirsters.
I wouldn't surprised if Nagash takes up a hero slot, a rare slot, and a monster slot... or something similar.
That is, if the rumor of "no points cost" is true.
There are ways around points. Can GW balance it? I don't know. We'll see Saturday.
Jambles wrote: I'm not trying to be contrarian here, but people keep talking about Age of Sigmar like they'll be able to use their Goblin Bosses and Skaven and such in the new game. Is there a reliable source for this information? Or is it just pure conjecture at this point?
Do we have anything OTHER than conjecture to go by on much of ANYTHING about AoS?
My point exactly It struck me as wishlisting, but apparently there's at least some concrete evidence for this.
I'm having a hard time believing a tabletop miniatures game with it's rules spread over 4 pages will have any type of depth. What size are the pages? Are they counting both sides (for a potential 8 sides)? What size is the font? Are there any diagrams to explain movement, LoS etc...? I still firmly believe these 4 pages are 'quickstart' rules and a full set will come soon after. The rulebook doesn't have to be a monster of one it can be quite compact and still hold a lot of info in, especially if large chunks of the fluff is left out.
Picked this up from the warhammer forum. The poster is a pseudonym for antoher poster who wants to be anonymous - no idea on its veracity but putting it out there for info.
I have touched the promo set. I have seen it. It is real. Here's what I know.
- you do not need to re-base your armies. Bases have one function only; to make your model stand up. All measurement is done from the model itself. A wing, a horn, the very tip of a sword sticking out...doesn't matter. If you want to re-base your army, stick your models on tiny weights so you can group them up as tightly as possible. Why? Because each model now fights against any model in a 360 degree arc. A sword can reach models 1" away, a spear can reach 2" away, etc.
- army books are gone but the new rules are free. And not just the rules but the rules for EVERY FANTASY MODEL GW CURRENTLY SELLS. So you're going to want to buy a printer because each unit comes with it's own card. The old stats are gone and have now been replaced with the cards. Whether a Human swings at a Dragon, a Steam Tank, or a Zombie, he hits on a 4+. Zombies however are easy to hit so on the Zombie card they might have a rule that anything swinging at them gets +1 to hit so the Human would then hit on a 3+. However when the Human swings on a Chaos Warrior, he may hit on a 4+ but because of their armor, he may be -1 to wound them. Every unit has its own cards (I now understand why this is a low model count game). You can now field anything from any army. If you want an army to consist of warp lightning cannons led by a Wood Elf on a dragon, knock yourself out. But the minimum unit size is whatever was sold in the box. Witch Elves are sold in boxes of 10 so that is their minimum unit size. Only 1 Screaming Bell comes in a box so minimum unit size is 1. There are no maximum unit sizes. Weapon specifications also come on the cards. Elvish archers have a bow, it shoots 24" and always hits on a 4+ for example. Orcs have Choppas that give +1 to wound on the charge. It's all on the cards themselves which is why the rules pack is so small.
- Brettonians and Beastmen still exist. There are cards for EVERY model.
- Whatever your units used to do, it has all changed. It might be the same. But it probably isn't.
- Wizards have cards just like everyone else. But they list the spells they can cast. So magic does exist. A Goblin Shaman casts different spells than a Necromancer.
- This game cannot be used for tournament play. When Player A achieves one of a handful of victory objectives (like killing Player B's General), Player B then gets a "hail mary" shot where they can specify a particular condition they have to meet and if they do it, they win. For example, Player A kills Player B's General. Player B picks the option to kill player A's General within a single turn. If he does it, Player B wins. If not, Player A wins. It's like adding weights to the winner to make his actual winning more difficult.
And then we run into the real problems. I am going to guess that the geniuses at GW did not bother to playtest the game because I saw no rules for fielding armies. Just show up, put down some models.
"I brought 39 Skaven Slaves led by an Ogre. What did you bring?"
"I brought 40 Star Dragons."
WTF?! There is no points system? Like...none?!?!?! Just throw some **** on the table and start rolling dice?! Are you freaking kidding me??????? Ok, I get that you can now buy a box of anything and you can play. They figured out a way to beat the high entrance cost of the game. But...words fail me at the stupidity of the game. In its current release form, it is completely unplayable. In absolutely no way do I see how this could be even fun as it is. Without some kind of balance, there is no game. Now the rules are free and in theory they could update them at any time with point costs. And if that happens instantaneously, great! But IMHO the folks at GW needed to get it right and in the beginning or there will just be an exodus of players. If they fix this 3 months from now, people will have found a new game they like and not bother with the train wreck this looks to be. I would guess they have 30 days to fix it or their fantasy product is done.
Flashman wrote: What's amuses me is that we've probably come up with better "No Points" selection systems in the last 30 minutes than GW has bothered with for AoS
We don't know that yet, but it worrying. As models move into multiple slots in similar systems it does become harder to balance, with the big ist worry being that big centerpeace models end up just being swarmed or that they are too hard to kill by equivalent amounts of units.
I think anything like nagash or greator demons will need to be toned down a lot in feel to make it work right now.
When they mean model I hope they are saying centre of the model, sorta anoying if a ini holding there sword out would have a advantage over one holding it closer to there body.
Picked this up from the warhammer forum. The poster is a pseudonym for antoher poster who wants to be anonymous - no idea on its veracity but putting it out there for info.
I have touched the promo set. I have seen it. It is real. Here's what I know.
- you do not need to re-base your armies. Bases have one function only; to make your model stand up. All measurement is done from the model itself. A wing, a horn, the very tip of a sword sticking out...doesn't matter. If you want to re-base your army, stick your models on tiny weights so you can group them up as tightly as possible. Why? Because each model now fights against any model in a 360 degree arc. A sword can reach models 1" away, a spear can reach 2" away, etc.
- army books are gone but the new rules are free. And not just the rules but the rules for EVERY FANTASY MODEL GW CURRENTLY SELLS. So you're going to want to buy a printer because each unit comes with it's own card. The old stats are gone and have now been replaced with the cards. Whether a Human swings at a Dragon, a Steam Tank, or a Zombie, he hits on a 4+. Zombies however are easy to hit so on the Zombie card they might have a rule that anything swinging at them gets +1 to hit so the Human would then hit on a 3+. However when the Human swings on a Chaos Warrior, he may hit on a 4+ but because of their armor, he may be -1 to wound them. Every unit has its own cards (I now understand why this is a low model count game). You can now field anything from any army. If you want an army to consist of warp lightning cannons led by a Wood Elf on a dragon, knock yourself out. But the minimum unit size is whatever was sold in the box. Witch Elves are sold in boxes of 10 so that is their minimum unit size. Only 1 Screaming Bell comes in a box so minimum unit size is 1. There are no maximum unit sizes. Weapon specifications also come on the cards. Elvish archers have a bow, it shoots 24" and always hits on a 4+ for example. Orcs have Choppas that give +1 to wound on the charge. It's all on the cards themselves which is why the rules pack is so small.
- Brettonians and Beastmen still exist. There are cards for EVERY model.
- Whatever your units used to do, it has all changed. It might be the same. But it probably isn't.
- Wizards have cards just like everyone else. But they list the spells they can cast. So magic does exist. A Goblin Shaman casts different spells than a Necromancer.
- This game cannot be used for tournament play. When Player A achieves one of a handful of victory objectives (like killing Player B's General), Player B then gets a "hail mary" shot where they can specify a particular condition they have to meet and if they do it, they win. For example, Player A kills Player B's General. Player B picks the option to kill player A's General within a single turn. If he does it, Player B wins. If not, Player A wins. It's like adding weights to the winner to make his actual winning more difficult.
And then we run into the real problems. I am going to guess that the geniuses at GW did not bother to playtest the game because I saw no rules for fielding armies. Just show up, put down some models.
"I brought 39 Skaven Slaves led by an Ogre. What did you bring?"
"I brought 40 Star Dragons."
WTF?! There is no points system? Like...none?!?!?! Just throw some **** on the table and start rolling dice?! Are you freaking kidding me??????? Ok, I get that you can now buy a box of anything and you can play. They figured out a way to beat the high entrance cost of the game. But...words fail me at the stupidity of the game. In its current release form, it is completely unplayable. In absolutely no way do I see how this could be even fun as it is. Without some kind of balance, there is no game. Now the rules are free and in theory they could update them at any time with point costs. And if that happens instantaneously, great! But IMHO the folks at GW needed to get it right and in the beginning or there will just be an exodus of players. If they fix this 3 months from now, people will have found a new game they like and not bother with the train wreck this looks to be. I would guess they have 30 days to fix it or their fantasy product is done.
#8theditionforever
The above, once your remove the angry, sounds a lot like how Wrath of Kings (and other games I'm sure) plays and works. I'm still excited to see the product. And since it's free I don't have to get antsy about it before "purchasing".
how is there any type of scale? This sounds odd as hell.
The Most Important Rule.
It could be that the scenarios state, for example, "Player A defending X for five turns. Player A gets 1 Hero, 2 Troops, 1 Rare. Player B gets 1 Hero, 2 Troops, 1 Fast, 1 Rare."
I dont see a No-Points game being feasible, or a realistic expectation.
Even if you remove the arbitrary points costs there will always be a structure of army creation and, correspondingly, a benchmark for comparison of unlike things, which is traditionally the role of points values.
You can remove the points per model, or points per unit even, but there must be some point of equilibrium that both sides agree to if you are going to have a "fair/balanced" competition.
And then we run into the real problems. I am going to guess that the geniuses at GW did not bother to playtest the game because I saw no rules for fielding armies. Just show up, put down some models.
"I brought 39 Skaven Slaves led by an Ogre. What did you bring?"
"I brought 40 Star Dragons."
That's not even right by his own rules.
Skavenslaves come to 20 per box.
So it'd be 40 star dragons vs 780 skaven slaves and an Ogre Hero (or maybe 6 ogres bulls or whatever)
how is there any type of scale? This sounds odd as hell.
Maybe it's the same sort of "Forge the Narrative/aka Deal with it" attitude we got with things like Unbound in 40k?
I don't know, I like a lot of what you heard mikhaila but I don't like a lot of what was posted from the warhammer forum. And I'm typically not very trusting of the GW reps when it comes to this sort of stuff.
But at least there seems to be frees rules. I've always been of the mind that if GW wasn't going to actually put effort into their rules, then they should just make them free and that would alleviate 80% of the issues people are having.
Right, so the boxed game (with a big book of scenarios and preselected armies) has no points cost/army selection rules - because your army is already selected.
This doesn't mean that the "army scrolls" or whatever that they put on the web won't have a system.
Kiwidru wrote: I dont see a No-Points game being feasible, or a realistic expectation.
Even if you remove the arbitrary points costs there will always be a structure of army creation and, correspondingly, a benchmark for comparison of unlike things, which is traditionally the role of points values.
You can remove the points per model, or points per unit even, but there must be some point of equilibrium that both sides agree to if you are going to have a "fair/balanced" competition.
As it has been mentioned a few times already, you do not have to have points, in order to give units a value, there have been many examples of how it can be done above already.
Apple fox wrote:When they mean model I hope they are saying centre of the model, sorta anoying if a ini holding there sword out would have a advantage over one holding it closer to there body.
Yeaaaaa if this is a thing, I'mma vote for measuring from the middle, m'k? This is extremely reminiscent of 'modeling for advantage' crap from 40k, including the horrible stuff in 4E or whenever about killing defilers by targeting a leg spike or mounting your tank's turrets waaaaaay above the body
Hulksmash wrote:The above, once your remove the angry, sounds a lot like how Wrath of Kings (and other games I'm sure) plays and works. I'm still excited to see the product. And since it's free I don't have to get antsy about it before "purchasing".
Finally people are bringing up WoK with more frequency, rather than just chanting about KoW. I actually kickstarted the game and my club has tried it a few times, does seem rather worth opening that KS box now ...
Kiwidru wrote: I dont see a No-Points game being feasible, or a realistic expectation.
Even if you remove the arbitrary points costs there will always be a structure of army creation and, correspondingly, a benchmark for comparison of unlike things, which is traditionally the role of points values.
You can remove the points per model, or points per unit even, but there must be some point of equilibrium that both sides agree to if you are going to have a "fair/balanced" competition.
One way you could do it is have each unit have a certain set of options unique to them but balanced so that holistically one an army should be about on par with another. For example, a block of 12 Chaos Warriors could choose to add another 6 warriors, halberds. shields or a mark of chaos. Redo the rules so that most of these options are viable.
Necros wrote: Maybe they're saying card vs card, everything is equally as tough. So if your card is 10 handgunngers, they're just as tough as 1 nagash?
Except the card doesn't give you the power of ten of something, it gives you the abilities of one of that thing.
Kiwidru wrote: I dont see a No-Points game being feasible, or a realistic expectation.
Even if you remove the arbitrary points costs there will always be a structure of army creation and, correspondingly, a benchmark for comparison of unlike things, which is traditionally the role of points values.
You can remove the points per model, or points per unit even, but there must be some point of equilibrium that both sides agree to if you are going to have a "fair/balanced" competition.
As it has been mentioned a few times already, you do not have to have points, in order to give units a value, there have been many examples of how it can be done above already.
And dont they all just involve assigning smaller 'points' values to larger groupings of models?
The difference between 20 one point goblins fielded together, and 1 unit of that consists of 20 goblins is pure semantics
Picked this up from the warhammer forum. The poster is a pseudonym for antoher poster who wants to be anonymous - no idea on its veracity but putting it out there for info.
I have touched the promo set. I have seen it. It is real. Here's what I know.
- you do not need to re-base your armies. Bases have one function only; to make your model stand up. All measurement is done from the model itself. A wing, a horn, the very tip of a sword sticking out...doesn't matter. If you want to re-base your army, stick your models on tiny weights so you can group them up as tightly as possible. Why? Because each model now fights against any model in a 360 degree arc. A sword can reach models 1" away, a spear can reach 2" away, etc.
- army books are gone but the new rules are free. And not just the rules but the rules for EVERY FANTASY MODEL GW CURRENTLY SELLS. So you're going to want to buy a printer because each unit comes with it's own card. The old stats are gone and have now been replaced with the cards. Whether a Human swings at a Dragon, a Steam Tank, or a Zombie, he hits on a 4+. Zombies however are easy to hit so on the Zombie card they might have a rule that anything swinging at them gets +1 to hit so the Human would then hit on a 3+. However when the Human swings on a Chaos Warrior, he may hit on a 4+ but because of their armor, he may be -1 to wound them. Every unit has its own cards (I now understand why this is a low model count game). You can now field anything from any army. If you want an army to consist of warp lightning cannons led by a Wood Elf on a dragon, knock yourself out. But the minimum unit size is whatever was sold in the box. Witch Elves are sold in boxes of 10 so that is their minimum unit size. Only 1 Screaming Bell comes in a box so minimum unit size is 1. There are no maximum unit sizes. Weapon specifications also come on the cards. Elvish archers have a bow, it shoots 24" and always hits on a 4+ for example. Orcs have Choppas that give +1 to wound on the charge. It's all on the cards themselves which is why the rules pack is so small.
- Brettonians and Beastmen still exist. There are cards for EVERY model.
- Whatever your units used to do, it has all changed. It might be the same. But it probably isn't.
- Wizards have cards just like everyone else. But they list the spells they can cast. So magic does exist. A Goblin Shaman casts different spells than a Necromancer.
- This game cannot be used for tournament play. When Player A achieves one of a handful of victory objectives (like killing Player B's General), Player B then gets a "hail mary" shot where they can specify a particular condition they have to meet and if they do it, they win. For example, Player A kills Player B's General. Player B picks the option to kill player A's General within a single turn. If he does it, Player B wins. If not, Player A wins. It's like adding weights to the winner to make his actual winning more difficult.
And then we run into the real problems. I am going to guess that the geniuses at GW did not bother to playtest the game because I saw no rules for fielding armies. Just show up, put down some models.
"I brought 39 Skaven Slaves led by an Ogre. What did you bring?"
"I brought 40 Star Dragons."
WTF?! There is no points system? Like...none?!?!?! Just throw some **** on the table and start rolling dice?! Are you freaking kidding me??????? Ok, I get that you can now buy a box of anything and you can play. They figured out a way to beat the high entrance cost of the game. But...words fail me at the stupidity of the game. In its current release form, it is completely unplayable. In absolutely no way do I see how this could be even fun as it is. Without some kind of balance, there is no game. Now the rules are free and in theory they could update them at any time with point costs. And if that happens instantaneously, great! But IMHO the folks at GW needed to get it right and in the beginning or there will just be an exodus of players. If they fix this 3 months from now, people will have found a new game they like and not bother with the train wreck this looks to be. I would guess they have 30 days to fix it or their fantasy product is done.
#8theditionforever
This is the way the game ends. Not with a bang but a whimper.
RacerX wrote: Another thought about marketing strategy.
The ENTRY PRICE is not just MONEY.
The entry price is knowledge.
It is a STEEP learning curve to buy into a new game with established gamers who know all the rules inside and out.
VERY intimidating, especially for younger kids.
So now GW has flattened the world and the playing field.
We have all become equal. Beards and Noobs alike.
This is a very important point, I think. I was getting into Fantasy in mid-6th as an experienced wargamer and it was a daunting experience, what with all the rules materials, FAQs and unwritten gaming conventions.
Kiwidru wrote: I dont see a No-Points game being feasible, or a realistic expectation.
Even if you remove the arbitrary points costs there will always be a structure of army creation and, correspondingly, a benchmark for comparison of unlike things, which is traditionally the role of points values.
You can remove the points per model, or points per unit even, but there must be some point of equilibrium that both sides agree to if you are going to have a "fair/balanced" competition.
There are a ton of game systems that use scenario driven force selection instead of points. I personally don't care for it but it's not new and it's honestly a good option for narrative type gaming IMO. The problem is, when you have a limited number of scenarios you have a limited use for your collection of models, so I prefer to be able to pick and choose which models I'm using and concoct my own strategies. Check out some 15mm gaming communities for opinions supporting it since that's where I have seen most of the non-points based gaming.
A wizard can cast one spell at beginning of each turn. Roll 2D6. If equal to or higher than the casting value it works. An enemy wizard within 18" of the caster can then 2D6; if it beats the score rolled by the caster it's dispelled.
This is a very important point, I think. I was getting into Fantasy in mid-6th as an experienced wargamer and it was a daunting experience, what with all the rules materials, FAQs and unwritten gaming conventions.
Sure. And the rules certainly could have been streamlined and clearer.
There's an awful lot of gradient though between 'too complicated' and 'you win on a 4+'... It's kind boggling that GW have jumped straight to that extreme, even with their history of over compensating for issues in their games .
ShaneTB wrote: A wizard can cast one spell at beginning of each turn. Roll 2D6. If equal to or higher than the casting value it works. An enemy wizard within 18" of the caster can then 2D6; if it beats the score rolled by the caster it's dispelled.
That's the magic phase summed up.
In the world of many flavours of wargames WHFB is now the bucket you use to wash the ice cream scoops in.
Units/weapons have Attacks, To Hit, Rend and Damage stats.
Attacks - number of dice you roll to hit
To Hit - what you need to roll to hit
Rend - to do with getting through armour (roll to beat Save somehow; missing text)
Damage - how many wounds each hit that lands causes
So a lot of years ago I started playing WHFB in 3E, but since we didn't have a lot of duplicate models and didn't totally get the % system or whatever used back then, our armies were just whatever we had. I got stomped pretty much continuously by my (spoiled) friend who had every big ridden monster and demanded he get to use them all, while all I had scrapped together with my allowance were a few Skaven and Chaos Things.
It is with a feeling the distinct opposite of joy that I look at this so-called army organization scheme. The saving grace - if I end up caring about it! - is that I can use whatever models I want to push around while having some AoS with my cider
I have a feeling tournaments are going to stick to 8th. This doesn't even look like it will work well with pick-up games. At least it really is a 'bear and pretzels' game now, I guess?
In a game as wide ranging and detailed as Warhammer: Age of Sigmar there may be times when you are not sure exactly how to resolve a situation during play...
Wow. Even when they only have 4 pages of rules they can't write it without needing this
ShaneTB wrote: Units/weapons have Attacks, To Hit, Rend and Damage stats.
Attacks - number of dice you roll to hit
To Hit - what you need to roll to hit
Rend - to do with getting through armour (roll to beat Save somehow; missing text)
Damage - how many wounds each hit that lands causes
Just me that think this looks like 40k? But with no guns.
I would be really sad if it turns into 40k, fantasy edition. And I am usually not one to complain about gw stuff
All wizards get the two core spells + unique ones on their War Scroll.
The 'complexity' I expect to come from the War Scroll details.
For example, one unit of Troops could be 15 zombies but they have a rule which gives the enemy +1 to hit (Slow Undead: Opponent has +1 to hit in ranged and close combat against this unit).
Automatically Appended Next Post: One of the two core spells does 1D3 Mortal Wounds (do not roll to hit/wound/save - auto wounds).
The second gives a unit +1 to their save.
Hint of healing abilities in the Wound section. Will be in War Scroll if applicable.
Edit: Summoning, Reincarnation and Reinforcement rules. Again, part of War Scrolls. So expect a lot of special rules outside of the core rule phamhlet.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: 5 pages ago, people were high fiving each other. Now, we're back to a cluster feth of epic proportions
Maybe everyone's panicking for no good reason.
For all we know, come Saturday, GW may well say, yeah, there is a points system. 1 unit = 1 warscroll.
So you want a 10 war scroll game, here's what 1 war scroll equals:
10 empire archers
20 skaven slaves
5 chaos warriors
Nagash costs 5 warscrolls
and so on.
Yeah, this release has been a rollercoaster, but I'm waiting till the end to figure out if I'm going to have any interest in the game. Definitely feels like I'm at a low spot on the ride though
ShaneTB wrote: All wizards get the two core spells + unique ones on their War Scroll.
The 'complexity' I expect to come from the War Scroll details.
For example, one unit of Troops could be 15 zombies but they have a rule which gives the enemy +1 to hit (Slow Undead: Opponent has +1 to hit in ranged and close combat against this unit).
Automatically Appended Next Post: One of the two core spells does 1D3 Mortal Wounds (do not roll to hit/wound/save - auto wounds).
The second gives a unit +1 to their save.
Hint of healing abilities in the Wound section. Will be in War Scroll if applicable.
hmm sounds ok - Like I said before played games like this and can be good - not sure baou tthis "last ditch win" idea - that does seem pretty crap
while I think it's quite probable that there may be some sort of balancing of forces (each player take the same number of boxes of stuff)
it would not surprise me if this game is even more targeted at groups of friends playing together who actually talk to each other and set goals/limits/scenarios beforehand
this is what GW designers play and what the games have mainly been intended for (with a brief flirtation with tournaments). It's not going to be good for random games in store, but it may well suit the home gamer more
(and yes I know tight competitive rule sets can work for home games too, but they're not what GW is all about)
From what little we can see of the rules, the "last ditch win" thing was hugely misrepresented by that one guy.
Battles are supposed to be played till someone has no minis left. If this takes too long, the player who lost a smaller percentage of their force (by pure model count) wins.
Only if someone starts out with a significantly smaller force is he allowed to pick an objective, so that he has a fighting chance.
lord_blackfang wrote: From what little we can see of the rules, the "last ditch win" thing was hugely misrepresented by that one guy.
Battles are supposed to be played till someone has no minis left. If this takes too long, the player who lost a smaller percentage of their force (by pure model count) wins.
Only if someone starts out with a significantly smaller force is he allowed to pick an objective, so that he has a fighting chance.
Ok thats a bit more interesting but still it sounds way wonky.
Gona have to wait and see after the box drops and i can take a gander at the full rules.
Battleshock (morale) happens for both sides - no 'winning' side in combat.
Players each roll 1D6 + number of models in unit slain = X. One model is lost for each point above the Bravery of the unit. Add +1 bravery for every ten models...(something about larger units).
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: 5 pages ago, people were high fiving each other. Now, we're back to a cluster feth of epic proportions
Man I got to say its been a roller coaster!!! Heart attack material.
Nah! I made up my mind with the info I have, I will give it a try since I have the models and I will have the free rules, so nothing to lose there. I think it has the potential to be enjoyable and its a good chance to play some games and introduce my kid to warhammer. Im positive with the fact I can use my things and rules are free.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: while I think it's quite probable that there may be some sort of balancing of forces (each player take the same number of boxes of stuff)
it would not surprise me if this game is even more targeted at groups of friends playing together who actually talk to each other and set goals/limits/scenarios beforehand
this is what GW designers play and what the games have mainly been intended for (with a brief flirtation with tournaments). It's not going to be good for random games in store, but it may well suit the home gamer more
(and yes I know tight competitive rule sets can work for home games too, but they're not what GW is all about)
Well they've shot themselves in the this time. I guess we're going to find out if Warhammer genuinely can survive as a Collectors range first, game second.
lord_blackfang wrote: From what little we can see of the rules, the "last ditch win" thing was hugely misrepresented by that one guy.
Battles are supposed to be played till someone has no minis left. If this takes too long, the player who lost a smaller percentage of their force (by pure model count) wins.
Only if someone starts out with a significantly smaller force is he allowed to pick an objective, so that he has a fighting chance.
Yes. Reads like if you have a third less models you can pick a Sudden Death victory condition.
lord_blackfang wrote: From what little we can see of the rules, the "last ditch win" thing was hugely misrepresented by that one guy.
Battles are supposed to be played till someone has no minis left. If this takes too long, the player who lost a smaller percentage of their force (by pure model count) wins.
Only if someone starts out with a significantly smaller force is he allowed to pick an objective, so that he has a fighting chance.
So even if the people saying that it may still be balanced if Nagash = 5 warscrolls or whatever are right, then the person whose army consists of Nagash, Sigmar, Tyrion and Malekith will still win by having less models and using the sudden death victories
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: 5 pages ago, people were high fiving each other. Now, we're back to a cluster feth of epic proportions
Maybe everyone's panicking for no good reason.
For all we know, come Saturday, GW may well say, yeah, there is a points system. 1 unit = 1 warscroll.
So you want a 10 war scroll game, here's what 1 war scroll equals:
This! the description where they talk about 100 miniatures below says "models are described as war-scrolls", I think it is a stab at that system you played in WHFB that you ranked an army based on what cheese/non-cheese units you've brought.
Well they've shot themselves in the this time. I guess we're going to find out if Warhammer genuinely can survive as a Collectors range first, game second.
Its not even a game. its just a bunch of toys where people sit there and make pew pew noises for a few hours at a time.
Assuming there really is no balancing factor.
I DO like the idea of objectives for smaller forces, like killing a specific unit or general or whatever. but its all looking pear shaped
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: 5 pages ago, people were high fiving each other. Now, we're back to a cluster feth of epic proportions
Man I got to say its been a roller coaster!!! Heart attack material.
Nah! I made up my mind with the info I have, I will give it a try since I have the models and I will have the free rules, so nothing to lose there. I think it has the potential to be enjoyable and its a good chance to play some games and introduce my kid to warhammer. Im positive with the fact I can use my things and rules are free.
I don't like being the voice of reason
But I think everybody should calm down...take a deep breath
This is a jigsaw puzzle, and while we're seeing a picture, we're not seeing the WHOLE picture, because pieces are missing.
Saturday may well reveal the piece that clears everything up.
If I'm wrong, you have my permission to run for the hills, but let's be patient. Yeah, I know its hard, but that's why Mankind invented alcohol
Well they've shot themselves in the this time. I guess we're going to find out if Warhammer genuinely can survive as a Collectors range first, game second.
Its not even a game. its just a bunch of toys where people sit there and make pew pew noises for a few hours at a time.
Assuming there really is no balancing factor.
I DO like the idea of objectives for smaller forces, like killing a specific unit or general or whatever. but its all looking pear shaped
From what I can see, there's something about killing a whole designated unit, having one of your designated units survive the whole game or having a designated model on enemy terroritory.
Wow, that sounds like absolute garbage. Let's hope that the real rules (as in the big rulebook that is rumoured to come out) are more interesting than this. At this point, I might buy the set to convert the mini into cultist, but I sure wont play a game where the rules are that simple and boring.
Stats seem to be To Hit, To Wound, Rend (= ASM, obviously), Save, Bravery.
Attack resolution seems to be exactly the same as now except you have static target numbers instead of WS tables. The morale check is the only different thing so far, and 3" melee engagement range.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: If the rules come with each unit, then that has to be the end of army books and all the fluff that went with them
Don't be silly. At some point, GW will compile everything into beautiful full-color hardback reference books for armies. They will be army books like we've all known, and GW will charge a pretty penny for them.
That maybe, but will they be available in Australia?
I certainly hope so. It would be grossly unfair to force Australians to import their rules from overseas, paying foreign exchange fees and international shipping charges on top of foreign retail prices. Far better that GW continues to sell their product in Australia at a fair market price.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: while I think it's quite probable that there may be some sort of balancing of forces (each player take the same number of boxes of stuff)
it would not surprise me if this game is even more targeted at groups of friends playing together who actually talk to each other and set goals/limits/scenarios beforehand
this is what GW designers play and what the games have mainly been intended for (with a brief flirtation with tournaments). It's not going to be good for random games in store, but it may well suit the home gamer more
(and yes I know tight competitive rule sets can work for home games too, but they're not what GW is all about)
Well they've shot themselves in the this time. I guess we're going to find out if Warhammer genuinely can survive as a Collectors range first, game second.
C'mon, flashman, you've probably played more games of warhammer than most people have had hot dinners.
You're too much of a veteran to let little things like 'balance' and 'game mechanics' put you off a new version of fantasy
If you've been in the hobby as long as I have (maybe you have) then you've probably seen GW churn out worse than this
Necros wrote: 100 minis is nothing, says the guy with a night goblin army.
Any army can hit 100 models if you're willing to set the points limit high enough. I has been a while since I counted out my Dogs of War, but I'm pretty sure they're well over 100 models.
streetsamurai wrote: Wow, that sounds like absolute garbage. Let's hope that the real rules (as in the big rulebook that is rumoured to come out) are more interesting than this. At this point, I might buy the set to convert the mini into cultist, but I sure wont play a game where the rules are that simple and boring.
There is no longer any rumor about a bigger rulebook. These are THE rules. And they look great from what I can read in the scans! You can always ignore the sudden death rule, which from the looks of it only comes opi to play if there is no clear winner. So in most battles it will not be used at all.
In a game as detailed and wide-ranging as Age of Sigmar...
-----> 4 pages of rules
I don't know, with this latest round of revelations I might actually pick up the rules and try a game with my old miniatures. Simplifying the rules so much is a ballsy move. Beyond that, still meh.
I've always played with a sudden death rule, my armies are usually wiped out by turn 4. It's like I've secretly been playtesting Age of Sigmar for the last 20 years.
pretre wrote: A lot of rumor mongers are going to take a big hit on this. Wow.
Aye, I'm not sure any of them saw this coming..
Still torn, part of me likes the idea of bring what I want.. and I have the advantages of no current ,models so no investment issues, and two lads eager to play wargames.. but the points thing is so weird.. need to see more info before I can make a final call.
People are spazzing about the white dwarf ARTICLE that has a blurb about army building similar to how they always promote army building and they have always had points (or in this case likely a balancing mechanic).
How about just waiting 5 days for the rules to be released online?
Hulksmash wrote: People are spazzing about the white dwarf ARTICLE that has a blurb about army building similar to how they always promote army building and they have always had points (or in this case likely a balancing mechanic).
How about just waiting 5 days for the rules to be released online?
If you've been in the hobby as long as I have (maybe you have) then you've probably seen GW churn out worse than this
I detect your sarcasm ( ) but for clarity I really don't think I have.
This is the company that gave us Bloodbowl, Battlefleet Gothic and Necromunda. It's genuinely painful to see it come to this.
Come to what? People saying that there isn't a points system without actually having seen the complete rules (including war scrolls)? you should probably wait and see what kind of balancing mechanism is actually there before declaring this the worst thing GW has ever done.
It looks like Fantasy Dynasty Warriors: The Board Game to me.
I think the Age of Sigmar will launch, and we'll have a more traditional Warhammer Fantasy ruleset launched alongside it within 12 months. GW love that codex cash too much to let it go.
pretre wrote: A lot of rumor mongers are going to take a big hit on this. Wow.
Aye, I'm not sure any of them saw this coming..
Still torn, part of me likes the idea of bring what I want.. and I have the advantages of no current ,models so no investment issues, and two lads eager to play wargames.. but the points thing is so weird.. need to see more info before I can make a final call.
Not Harry, Hastings or Arthurius. Not El Taller de Yila, Namiel, Natfka, Larry Vela, TWF, Zamerion, , SinaLiebniz. Definitely not Steve the Warboss,
If you've been in the hobby as long as I have (maybe you have) then you've probably seen GW churn out worse than this
I detect your sarcasm ( ) but for clarity I really don't think I have.
This is the company that gave us Bloodbowl, Battlefleet Gothic and Necromunda. It's genuinely painful to see it come to this.
Come to what? People saying that there isn't a points system without actually having seen the complete rules (including war scrolls)? you should probably wait and see what kind of balancing mechanism is actually there before declaring this the worst thing GW has ever done.
Yeah, I'll read it all on Saturday, but not seeing any spark of hope here. The rules are what makes a game for me and if it turns out they couldn't be bothered, then neither can I.
If you've been in the hobby as long as I have (maybe you have) then you've probably seen GW churn out worse than this
I detect your sarcasm ( ) but for clarity I really don't think I have.
This is the company that gave us Bloodbowl, Battlefleet Gothic and Necromunda. It's genuinely painful to see it come to this.
Come to what? People saying that there isn't a points system without actually having seen the complete rules (including war scrolls)? you should probably wait and see what kind of balancing mechanism is actually there before declaring this the worst thing GW has ever done.
I think it's more to see the complex and intricate game of WHFB game reduced to a four page document that takes previous systems and boils them into a couple of rolls.
It will certainly be great for drawing in people who have never played wargames or don't have the patience for some of the more complicated affairs, but I don't blame the WHFB fans for being frustrated that their game has been pretty much rolled into archive along with the other Specialists Games.
I'm hoping the stat cards add the depth people are looking for. Right now, it looks pretty simple and easy to use. I kind of like that idea. Simple rules system with complexity added by units.
pretre wrote: A lot of rumor mongers are going to take a big hit on this. Wow.
I'm still not seeing any Nigmos, what a shame. I was looking forward to the Nigmos.
Maybe they will be in the next wave!
I'm confused by the wording of the 'Mortal Wounds' rule; does that mean that when you have a model who does a Mortal Wound you just decide who you are attacking and remove the opposing model?
Lt. Donomar StubbornBull wrote: I'm confused by the wording of the 'Mortal Wounds' rule; does that mean that when you have a model who does a Mortal Wound you just decide who you are attacking and remove the opposing model?
You allocate like normal. Look at the above wound allocation. i.e. the owner of the target unit assigns the wounds.
I guess it's also worth remembering its been said that the existing units may well not do what they use to do
so big scary Nagash, for example, may not be anything like as powerful in AoS as he was in WFB so balancing per 'box' may be easier than assumed based on the old stats/game
pretre wrote: I'm hoping the stat cards add the depth people are looking for. Right now, it looks pretty simple and easy to use. I kind of like that idea. Simple rules system with complexity added by units.
This 1000%! If they can create complexity with the warscrolls they can continually push the game forward and make it a challenge constantly. Let alone from them selling more models. Sure you might end up with a "broken" unit here or there, but there is hope for really interesting combos and very unique styles of play. The unbound doesn't kill me, I actually love it because you can make thematic armies or replay specific battles.
If you've been in the hobby as long as I have (maybe you have) then you've probably seen GW churn out worse than this
I detect your sarcasm ( ) but for clarity I really don't think I have.
This is the company that gave us Bloodbowl, Battlefleet Gothic and Necromunda. It's genuinely painful to see it come to this.
Come to what? People saying that there isn't a points system without actually having seen the complete rules (including war scrolls)? you should probably wait and see what kind of balancing mechanism is actually there before declaring this the worst thing GW has ever done.
I think it's more to see the complex and intricate game of WHFB game reduced to a four page document that takes previous systems and boils them into a couple of rolls.
It will certainly be great for drawing in people who have never played wargames or don't have the patience for some of the more complicated affairs, but I don't blame the WHFB fans for being frustrated that their game has been pretty much rolled into archive along with the other Specialists Games.
I agree, I was specifically referring to complaints about the supposed lack of a points system, although looking at the original post from Flashman he could very well be talking about the whole package and not just the lack of points. I can completely understand why people are angry that their mass-battle rule set is now well and truly dead, and replaced with something entirely different. Sadly those rules apparently didn't make people buy any miniatures.
pretre wrote: I'm hoping the stat cards add the depth people are looking for. Right now, it looks pretty simple and easy to use. I kind of like that idea. Simple rules system with complexity added by units.
I'm actually pretty open to trying this out now I know the rules and unit cards are going to be available for free. Welcome to the 21st century, GW!
Not going to complain about that- it's very good news. I've got multiple Fantasy armies fully painted, so there is no cost to me for trying it out.
Curious to see what's coming now. Definitely won't be selling my stuff. A streamlined, KOW-like skirmish game with the unit-depth of WFB could be pretty cool, if there is any kind of balance to it.
pretre wrote: I'm hoping the stat cards add the depth people are looking for. Right now, it looks pretty simple and easy to use. I kind of like that idea. Simple rules system with complexity added by units.
I've been banging that drum for the last 3 pages!!
We're missing jigsaw pieces here. Wait til Saturday. Drink alcohol to get through the week.
Yes, magic could be basic, but for all we know, the wizard warscrolls could give you the following:
Jade wizard: if your jade wizard is next to a tree, and he rolls two 6s for casting, his spell can't be dispelled.
Tzeentch wizard: for every other Tzeentch wizard within 6 inches, add one D6 to your casting pool.
and so on
I think the rules are basic for a reason: the warscroll rules/cards will add complexity and save the day...I hope
Anyway, what the hell do I care? I'm not even buying this anyway, even if it were the greatest game since chess was invented.
pretre wrote: I'm hoping the stat cards add the depth people are looking for. Right now, it looks pretty simple and easy to use. I kind of like that idea. Simple rules system with complexity added by units.
I've been banging that drum for the last 3 pages!!
We're missing jigsaw pieces here. Wait til Saturday. Drink alcohol to get through the week.
Yes, magic could be basic, but for all we know, the wizard warscrolls could give you the following:
Jade wizard: if your jade wizard is next to a tree, and he rolls two 6s for casting, his spell can't be dispelled.
Tzeentch wizard: for every other Tzeentch wizard within 6 inches, add one D6 to your casting pool.
and so on
I think the rules are basic for a reason: the warscroll rules/cards will add complexity and save the day...I hope
Anyway, what the hell do I care? I'm not even buying this anyway, even if it were the greatest game since chess was invented.
I've already spent my budget on Flames of War
It would be easier to fix a warescroll than the BRB (though 4 page BRB)
Lt. Donomar StubbornBull wrote: I'm confused by the wording of the 'Mortal Wounds' rule; does that mean that when you have a model who does a Mortal Wound you just decide who you are attacking and remove the opposing model?
You allocate like normal. Look at the above wound allocation. i.e. the owner of the target unit assigns the wounds.
Ok that clears it up, thanks. So a 'Mortal Wound' auto hits and auto wounds and then that wound is allocated by the opposing player...
Also, I imagine if there are really no points, some group will come along to assign points to each scroll. Think of the balance! We could actually have balanced armies if GW isn't assigning the points.
Lt. Donomar StubbornBull wrote: I'm confused by the wording of the 'Mortal Wounds' rule; does that mean that when you have a model who does a Mortal Wound you just decide who you are attacking and remove the opposing model?
You allocate like normal. Look at the above wound allocation. i.e. the owner of the target unit assigns the wounds.
Ok that clears it up, thanks. So a 'Mortal Wound' auto hits and auto wounds and then that wound is allocated by the opposing player...
pretre wrote: I'm hoping the stat cards add the depth people are looking for. Right now, it looks pretty simple and easy to use. I kind of like that idea. Simple rules system with complexity added by units.
I've been banging that drum for the last 3 pages!!
We're missing jigsaw pieces here. Wait til Saturday. Drink alcohol to get through the week.
Yes, magic could be basic, but for all we know, the wizard warscrolls could give you the following:
Jade wizard: if your jade wizard is next to a tree, and he rolls two 6s for casting, his spell can't be dispelled.
Tzeentch wizard: for every other Tzeentch wizard within 6 inches, add one D6 to your casting pool.
and so on
I think the rules are basic for a reason: the warscroll rules/cards will add complexity and save the day...I hope
Anyway, what the hell do I care? I'm not even buying this anyway, even if it were the greatest game since chess was invented.
I've already spent my budget on Flames of War
It would be easier to fix a warescroll than the BRB (though 4 page BRB)
Don't underestimate a 4 page rulebook - have you ever had a bad papercut before?
One thing occurs to me with the whole warscrolls concept (and it's probably already been mentioned) is that this does open a much broader scope for limited edition unit releases.
"Skaven Assassins release - 10 per box - limited to 700 worldwide. Ensure that you place your orders for Skaven Assassins - Limited Edition Unit Box as soon as possible to avoid disappointment!"
zedmeister wrote: One thing occurs to me with the whole warscrolls concept (and it's probably already been mentioned) is that this does open a much broader scope for limited edition unit releases.
"Skaven Assassins release - 10 per box - limited to 700 worldwide. Ensure that you place your orders for Skaven Assassins - Limited Edition Unit Box as soon as possible to avoid disappointment!"
That was rumoured by someone.. can't remember who.. and it would be my only concern of note as well. Hopefully it won't happen, or at worst it won't happen to something I want.
pretre wrote: A lot of rumor mongers are going to take a big hit on this. Wow.
I'll help you out with what I posted before:
All current models stay valid: looks like a truth right now
Round bases were for display purposes, and we don't have to rebase: semi true, but probably leaning more towards false: seeing how round bases ARE now the norm, but we don't have to actually rebase. You can call that one however you'd like.
This Age of Sigmar box release is a board game, not the actual full game release: sounds like a false in my book.
So I'm fine with having a 1/1/1 across the board. I think I had one more thing but forgot what it was.
Well, there's nothing I dislike about those rules, at least about what's there, but I do have some concerns about what isn't. One thing I've always felt GW did well is detail, I liked the fact that each model mattered, and I'd hoped that this would actually build on that given the supposedly skirmishy nature. As it is, what we seem to have is almost KoW but without the tactical movement, depth or elegance. Warscrolls could add something back in, but I honestly don't see yet what this ruleset does that onepagehammer, KoW or LotR don't do better.
I don't mean to sound bitter or even disappointed, as this is all free anyway and it's not like we have to use it, but it just seems (at the moment, as I say warscrolls could change it all) that this is no 'better' than the kind of rules I'd write of an afternoon to use my airfix models in as a kid.
zedmeister wrote: One thing occurs to me with the whole warscrolls concept (and it's probably already been mentioned) is that this does open a much broader scope for limited edition unit releases.
"Skaven Assassins release - 10 per box - limited to 700 worldwide. Ensure that you place your orders for Skaven Assassins - Limited Edition Unit Box as soon as possible to avoid disappointment!"
That was rumoured by someone.. can't remember who.. and it would be my only concern of note as well. Hopefully it won't happen, or at worst it won't happen to something I want.
Its such Saturday morning cartoon plot that it must be true
The Division Of Joy wrote: I'm confused. What exactly is causing people to lose their minds here? Apart from the usual 'characters' doing their comedy routines.
The 'no points costs - take what ever you like' interpretation of some of the leaks, though I will agree with others and say that it is too early to tell as we haven't seen any of these 'battlescrolls' yet.
The Division Of Joy wrote: I'm confused. What exactly is causing people to lose their minds here? Apart from the usual 'characters' doing their comedy routines.
Well, I'm guessing most people who really enjoyed previous WHFB are upset to see the game go entirely into the archive.
EDIT: and as nudibranch said, the possible "Everything is unbound!", coupled with possible rumors of there not being any structure to how many units you can buy (aka just having a "gentlemen's agreement" on how many units to bring).
Not sure if the second one is definitely going to be the case, but the wording in the White Dwarf wasn't particularly clear.
zedmeister wrote: One thing occurs to me with the whole warscrolls concept (and it's probably already been mentioned) is that this does open a much broader scope for limited edition unit releases.
"Skaven Assassins release - 10 per box - limited to 700 worldwide. Ensure that you place your orders for Skaven Assassins - Limited Edition Unit Box as soon as possible to avoid disappointment!"
This, i remember a rumor to this effect awhile back and i could really see GW wetting themselves with joy at the mere thought of getting into this sorta of model. no excess stock, they fire off a run, charge a mucho premium price and then maybe in a year or something they squirt out another batch.
Really thus far i'm not impressed...at all, but the unit cards really could make the difference on this, if we are talking malifaux type unit cards that really contain some great interactions between units then we may have something playable here.
But...goodbye warhammer, its like i grew up playing this game, introduced tons of people to it have my kids playing it, my son has played for just shy of a decade himself now...
The Division Of Joy wrote: I'm confused. What exactly is causing people to lose their minds here? Apart from the usual 'characters' doing their comedy routines.
Well, I'm guessing most people who really enjoyed previous WHFB are upset to see the game go entirely into the archive.
EDIT: and as nudibranch said, the possible "Everything is unbound!", coupled with possible rumors of there not being any structure to how many units you can buy (aka just having a "gentlemen's agreement" on how many units to bring).
Not sure if the second one is definitely going to be the case, but the wording in the White Dwarf wasn't particularly clear.
Its understandable MOST people will be able to gentlemen their way through a time no issues, but we all know that one fether that will bring nothing but the strongest nonsense and just becomes un fun.
Also the have it your way unboundness makes the rules seem very VERY Lazy and cheap. personally
Very interesting rules - I'd be fine with all of it just so long as we get some sort of balancing points system with the unit war scrolls. What bothers me more is the "bring whatever models you want and use them". That really does stink - so what we can field high elves *and* dark elves in the same army. They freaking HATE each other? Or what else, empire and orcs in the same army? Just seems stupid. The thing I always liked about fantasy (and its the same with 40k) is that you collect a specific army - you build a theme and a colour scheme and its got a unity about it. But there was tactics in building an army - and list building is as much as part of fantasy as the actual game......
It appears the scrolls will allow for army selection. This was illustrated in a previous announcement. Check my channel if you want a rundown, but you can do a quick search and I'm sure its been posted all over.
Incidentally, is anyone familiar with the fun, but now dead game "Arcane Legions"? I ask because it was actually a very solid, mass-battles game, with some interesting mechanics... and its core rules were a six page document.
I just thought it felt like a relevant example of rules requiring less verbosity than we expect out of modern games, especially when special abilities can be spelled out in greater detail on supplemental materials like unit-cards.
I for one, am hyped by the sound of a lot of this... especially the "risk free" part where I can be playing, and thus really evaluating the rules within ten minutes of downloading them (the week after GW's destroyed servers come back online).
The Division Of Joy wrote: I'm confused. What exactly is causing people to lose their minds here? Apart from the usual 'characters' doing their comedy routines.
I don't recall seeing anyone 'losing their minds'... just a heap of comments from people about things they like or dislike about what's been revealed so far.
I mean, I like hyperbole as much as the next 14 million people, but let's try to not build drama where it doesn't actually exist, hmm?
Mc1gamer wrote: In case anyone is interested - rules screen shots - this link is to my YT vid, so fair warning
Confirmation of free rules is very nice indeed. There's certainly no harm in trying it out, and I can simply stick to 8th if I don't like it. I'm also glad it's not technically 9th edition WHFB, and that, allegedly, it should scale up and that it doesn't matter how things are based.
It's a great move by GW from the community's point of view, I hope it pays off for them!
And thanks for sharing the video, Mc1gamer. I'll watch it all but just had a quick skim through... the rules do certainly look nice and streamlined, but I'm not liking the look about that 40k-esque turn sequence. Intrigued about the hero and battleshock phase though!
The Division Of Joy wrote: I'm confused. What exactly is causing people to lose their minds here? Apart from the usual 'characters' doing their comedy routines.
I don't recall seeing anyone 'losing their minds'... just a heap of comments from people about things they like or dislike about what's been revealed so far.
I mean, I like hyperbole as much as the next 14 million people, but let's try to not build drama where it doesn't actually exist, hmm?
Mc1gamer wrote: In case anyone is interested - rules screen shots - this link is to my YT vid, so fair warning
Thanks, I guess... but why would you post rules screen shots in a video...?
Because I don't have a video of the rule book? LOL
Hey, I have a YT channel, I posts lots of leaks and rumors, and I communicate my mind on those, and have a dialogue with those who follow. Its a hobby, nothing more. Plus a short (or long) video is more effective than a wall of text. If you don't like it, don't click Really, I just put it out there b/c I didn't see the screen shots posted here yet. A quick link was easier since I already created the content.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Incidentally, is anyone familiar with the fun, but now dead game "Arcane Legions"? I ask because it was actually a very solid, mass-battles game, with some interesting mechanics... and its core rules were a six page document.
I just thought it felt like a relevant example of rules requiring less verbosity than we expect out of modern games, especially when special abilities can be spelled out in greater detail on supplemental materials like unit-cards.
It's certainly possible to create a fun game without a lot of rules. I just think it's going to be a hard slog selling that sort of ruleset to players who liked WHFB precisely because of the complexity. We saw this issue in practice when Epic replaced the old Space Marine game... While Epic was a technically better system (by all acounts) people hated the fact that so much of the detail from the old game had been stripped out.
Launching AoS as a separate, new game is a start, but I can't help but think that this would have been better done as an intro game alongside WHFB rather than killing off the existing property to replace it with a (presumably) vastly simpler game.
But who knows... maybe GWhave managed to create an in-depth ruleset with 4 pages of rules and unit cards to flesh out the detail. I just have trouble seeing that as likely from a company whose current philosophy is that our 'hobby' is 'buying Citadel miniatures'...
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Mc1gamer wrote: Because I don't have a video of the rule book? LOL
Hey, I have a YT channel, I posts lots of leaks and rumors, and I communicate my mind on those, and have a dialogue with those who follow. Its a hobby, nothing more. Plus a short (or long) video is more effective than a wall of text. If you don't like it, don't click Really, I just put it out there b/c I didn't see the screen shots posted here yet. A quick link was easier since I already created the content.
It's all good. The 'thanks' at the start of my post wasn't entirely sarcastic - Kudos for posting what you have.
Stuff being posted in videos that is more suited to a plain 'ol picture is just a personal bugbear of mine
insaniak wrote: Stuff being posted in videos that is more suited to a plain 'ol picture is just a personal bugbear of mine
Agree to infinity. A lot of the time, I can read an article or look at a picture, when I can't watch a video. Wanting everything in youtube form seems to be something for the younger generation, I don't understand it. Get off my lawn etc.
The rules look alright I guess, but no new pictures of the models? I was hoping to see some shots of the dude on the lizard, the chaos hero and monster...well, maybe tomorrow. The current images we have are really blurry you can't make out most of the details on the unmasked sigmarite and the spawn/brute of Khorne.
insaniak wrote: Stuff being posted in videos that is more suited to a plain 'ol picture is just a personal bugbear of mine
Agree to infinity. A lot of the time, I can read an article or look at a picture, when I can't watch a video. Wanting everything in youtube form seems to be something for the younger generation, I don't understand it. Get off my lawn etc.
Again, if you don't like it, don't click it. I'm not 'younger generation.' Been playing warhammer since late 80's. I'm just a bit more 'with it' with modern forms of communicating that you. Again, really, no need to get into a tizzy. If you don't like, don't read it, don't watch it, don't click it. Its NOT your lawn, and this last bit was probably a little uneccessary and rude, so has been removed.. -insaniak
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nudibranch wrote: Yeahhh, don't forget Youtube is work blocked for many people.
Excellent point!!!
Sorry, as I mentioned earlier, it was a rush merely to share. I'll be sure to add links to pics, or attach going forward
The Division Of Joy wrote: I'm confused. What exactly is causing people to lose their minds here? Apart from the usual 'characters' doing their comedy routines.
Probably the "take what you want" idea that would send anyone but a blind fanboy, pewpewing kid or a multiples collector into a state of deep disdain, define the ruleset as an ass wiping material and the company as a complete joke. That it might not be true doesnt change anything, just the hint is enough because the company itself doesnt seem to be bothered with informing the potential player base about all those little things.
I dont care btw, unless it's great I stay with 8th or go Kings of War or sth anyway. It will be fun no matter what, either the game will be good or the fail hilarious.
Sorry to genuinely positive people here but crap post deserves a crap post.
I would rather that the game has a full rulebook and then has a relevant and clear rules summary to get the best of both worlds.
Confrontation: Age of Ragnorok has a rulebook that is as large as most Warhammer-level tabletop games out there, and with one trip to the site http://www.orderofgamers.com/, I can download a 3-8page rules summary of the entire ruleset (which includes several other player aids) as well as unit cards that vastly improve the unit cards that came with the models. Each card for a unit has the entire mechanics of their army book entry, with a secondary card for the abilities of the several special fighters a unit can take (Musician, Standard Bearer, etc).
This is the quality of material that Games Workshop should be putting out, which condenses about 50-60 pages of Confrontation rules:
The first 14 pages are the entire army book entries as Unit Cards for the Griffin Faction, which include heroes, their personalized wargear as cards, units, and generic wargear that heroes can take as cards, everything after that (the "extras" are actually units that were supposed to be in a what was essentially a later sub-faction rulebook of the same army:
Imagine a Warhammer 40K or Fantasy game where a unit card has all the stats, points costs, and keyword abilities spelled out, rather than leafing through an army book for anything other than fluff(the only part I use them for).
Enjoyed the video, Mc1gamer! I'll be glad to get my hands on zoom-able actual photos but it was a good, quick first overview at the game. Thanks for sharing!
The Shadow wrote: Enjoyed the video, Mc1gamer! I'll be glad to get my hands on zoom-able actual photos but it was a good, quick first overview at the game. Thanks for sharing!
Thanks and sorry if it wasn't clear. Just a rush to get the info out as soon as it was sent to me. I could barely read it as I was recording lol. I posted a link to the screen shots so you can zoom in on those. I'l be sure to include that or just go that route in the future. Cheers!
Eldarain wrote: Is it Visions or White Dwarf that comes with the free mini?
From the photograph on twitter it looks like its next saturday's white dwarf which has the free mini. Might be the first time I buy white dwarf in about 10 years.... Last free mini white dwarf I bought was necromunda! Free orlock or goliath mini. That's going back some....
Yeah, a free mini in WD is nostalgic, surprising and brilliant at the same time. A WD these days is what, £2.50? Considering GW charge up to £16 for a single standard-base model, that's a damn cheap model that I'll probably just get for the hell of it.
Yeah, as much as the rules release might seem a bit underwhelming, £2.50 for a free mini and what amounts to a hard copy of the 'rulebook' by the look of it is hard to knock. Even if the rules aren't you're go-to game, I can see them being a great tool for gently breaking in those new to wargaming in general before moving to deeper stuff, or fitting in quick games during lunch breaks or run a series of games in a single session.
The Shadow wrote: Yeah, a free mini in WD is nostalgic, surprising and brilliant at the same time. A WD these days is what, £2.50? Considering GW charge up to £16 for a single standard-base model, that's a damn cheap model that I'll probably just get for the hell of it.
The free mini in the WD coupled with the rumored free rules for, well, everything suggest that GW might be playing it pretty smart with this release, and not banking on people purchasing it just because it's made by them. So that is a hopeful sign.
OK,....this sucks so hard....I'm having trouble typing, hands shaking....
Just spent an hour and a half on the phone with GW, them trying in vain to make me understand how I can play the game, let alone how i could make someone want to buy it.
It has no points, no system to balance armies, nothing whatsoever tells the two players what they can put on the table.
Just play with what you want to play with.
I'm having trouble with the idea of two 12 year olds opening up figure cases and playing a game....let alone running a league, or a tournament.
I argued and asked for any reason they didn't have a points system. They just kept telling me it doesn't have one, doesn't need one, the game has things that give the player with least models an advantage, or why one dragon gets killed by a unit. It was like talking with people that don't play the game. Have never played the game. Only played the scenarios in AoS.
With the vast difference in profile between models in Warhammer, it's absurd to think you can balance by model count.
And you can't balance by Warscroll, this is just multiple models which can have hugely different numbers and stats.
And you can't balance by wounds. Chaos Warrior = 1 goblin? Nagash = 10 goblins?
In fact, Nagash or a large dragon or blood thirster is aways optimal. Warscrolls =1, Model count =1, Wounds < 10.
Because of the huge difference in power of the playing pieces, nothing makes sense unless you balance by a number that reflects the value of the individual piece in the game.
AoS is essentially Unbound armies where you bring what you want. You aren't even restricted by faction, you just might have models that don't gain a bonus others might from an icon or leader.
I've actually been in tears today over what they did to WFB. I have no idea how I will sell this game in my shop other than an expensive boardgame.
Very bizarre indeed. Thanks for sharing. Balancing by model count obviously won't work unless they're going to homogenize the model range a *lot*. Be interesting to see what comes out of the rules release at the weekend but if this is true, I'm highly skeptical there'll be a decent game at the end of it.
OK,....this sucks so hard....I'm having trouble typing, hands shaking....
Just spent an hour and a half on the phone with GW, them trying in vain to make me understand how I can play the game, let alone how i could make someone want to buy it.
It has no points, no system to balance armies, nothing whatsoever tells the two players what they can put on the table.
Just play with what you want to play with.
I'm having trouble with the idea of two 12 year olds opening up figure cases and playing a game....let alone running a league, or a tournament.
I argued and asked for any reason they didn't have a points system. They just kept telling me it doesn't have one, doesn't need one, the game has things that give the player with least models an advantage, or why one dragon gets killed by a unit. It was like talking with people that don't play the game. Have never played the game. Only played the scenarios in AoS.
With the vast difference in profile between models in Warhammer, it's absurd to think you can balance by model count.
And you can't balance by Warscroll, this is just multiple models which can have hugely different numbers and stats.
And you can't balance by wounds. Chaos Warrior = 1 goblin? Nagash = 10 goblins?
In fact, Nagash or a large dragon or blood thirster is aways optimal. Warscrolls =1, Model count =1, Wounds < 10.
Because of the huge difference in power of the playing pieces, nothing makes sense unless you balance by a number that reflects the value of the individual piece in the game.
AoS is essentially Unbound armies where you bring what you want. You aren't even restricted by faction, you just might have models that don't gain a bonus others might from an icon or leader.
I've actually been in tears today over what they did to WFB. I have no idea how I will sell this game in my shop other than an expensive boardgame.
That really sucks, Mikhaila. Hope you feel better soon
mikhaila wrote: OK,....this sucks so hard....I'm having trouble typing, hands shaking....
Just spent an hour and a half on the phone with GW, them trying in vain to make me understand how I can play the game, let alone how i could make someone want to buy it.
It has no points, no system to balance armies, nothing whatsoever tells the two players what they can put on the table.
....
I've actually been in tears today over what they did to WFB. I have no idea how I will sell this game in my shop other than an expensive boardgame.
, but suppose you were that rare person who had been raised by an extremely reclusive Amazonia tribe. 
)
this time. I guess we're going to find out if Warhammer genuinely can survive as a Collectors range first, game second.
