Caederes wrote: The double Markerlights think sounds both fluffy and insane.
Here's the weird thing about the "use the old codex" thing...we know the Fireblade is now a Troops coice due to his slot swap on the web store, as are Drones (before they were taken off they got put in Troops).
Thoughts?
He's a character that is associated with the Fire Warrior Teams?
If I had to guess, he'll be a required part for a Fire Warrior formation that takes up a "Core" slot so he gets put there.
Fair enough - I can confirm that Tau dedicated transports (the Devilfish at least) also received the Fast Attack treatment according to the tiny codex preview.
Yay! That makes that 80pt price tag a bit more palatable. If hammerheads get it too, they might actually be somewhat useful again.
Fair enough - I can confirm that Tau dedicated transports (the Devilfish at least) also received the Fast Attack treatment according to the tiny codex preview.
Fair enough - I can confirm that Tau dedicated transports (the Devilfish at least) also received the Fast Attack treatment according to the tiny codex preview.
I think someone needs to turn a Devilfish into a Kroot party bus.
Fair enough - I can confirm that Tau dedicated transports (the Devilfish at least) also received the Fast Attack treatment according to the tiny codex preview.
Grav cannons being made available is broadly analogous to FW squads getting access to the new drone turret. I fully expect Hammerheads and Skyrays to become squadronable as well, hopefully with some kind of D-related benefit.
So in terms of what we've 'missed out on', it's really just slight points adjustments (up or down), condensing of unit options (no MoF but 2W techies), possibly slight statline adjustments?
In a very profound way I think this actually worked out really well. Sure, there are things I wanted to change with the new book (devilfish being less points, Vespid being rejigged, Iridium being a support system), but there were also a lot of things I didn't want them to change.
I didn't want markerlights to change, I didn't want Supporting Fire to change, I didn't want Crisis suits to be more expensive or have Farsight Enclaves invalidated, there's a lot more.
When you open the door to massive changes, those changes can be both positive and negative. If we had the points for Devilfish revised, we could've also had Commanders go up to 100pts or markerlights become far worse than they are. Hell, we could've had Robin Cruddace be the one doing the majority of the work on our codex, can you imagine how awful that might've been?
This way, we get to keep everything in our codex that's good and works PLUS getting a bunch of new units and a Decurion-esque detachment + accompanying Formations. We didn't need to sacrifice anything in the codex to get those benefits.
Look at Orks as a counter example: When their new book was on the horizon, I was really hyped because I thought it'd improve a lot of things. Instead, it ripped the guts out of the army, changed things that never needed to be changed, and (arguably) alienated a large portion of the Ork playerbase. This Tau release could've been exactly the same, but instead they adopted the 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' mentality.
But the Tau release WAS the same - the previous one. It completely destroyed my army and made the units I loved essentially unplayable without fixing any of those units which did not work in the previous book.
The point is that Tau NEEDED a total rewrite because the 6th edition book was horrible in many respects (except the overall power level). Now, it seems we are not going to get that. Colour me very disappointed.
Yes, I will take Cruddace as a Codex writer over Vetock in a heartbeat. Vetock ruined BOTH of my armies in 6th edition. I don't want him to touch anything I own with 10 metre pole.
Caederes wrote: The double Markerlights think sounds both fluffy and insane.
Here's the weird thing about the "use the old codex" thing...we know the Fireblade is now a Troops coice due to his slot swap on the web store, as are Drones (before they were taken off they got put in Troops).
Thoughts?
He's a character that is associated with the Fire Warrior Teams?
If I had to guess, he'll be a required part for a Fire Warrior formation that takes up a "Core" slot so he gets put there.
All of the Core formations we've seen so far have featured units from other slots than Troops but none of them have ever been moved to the Troops slot on the webstore to my knowledge. This says to me the Fireblade is getting a FoC swap....which would mean that there are changes to the units. Honestly though I'm just holding out hope.
This part isn't directed at anyone in particular; I think some people are missing the point with regards to why a lot of people are complaining about the lack of codex changes. The point is not that the competitive status of the army will weaken or stay the same; it will only get better because of the numerous additions (detachment, formations, new units, etc), meaning the army will still be much closer to being top tier than the majority of other codices in the game and thus still in a good place with regards to tournaments while receiving potentially massive boosts. The big problem is that it means that unless you want to buy new units or the formations significantly change the way the army plays - which they usually do, to be fair - there's no real "excitement" to be had with the new codex. Remember how much we were gushing when Dreadnoughts were given Chapter Tactics and 4 Attacks base? Sure, in the long run it doesn't make them super competitive as we might hope but it was still a really cool change that everyone adored. Heck, what about when all of the Eldar Aspect Warriors became super duper good and actually started to match their fluff with all their crazy unique special rules; all of my Eldar-playing friends and everyone I read about online was jumping for joy when that happened. Stuff like that is what makes most players get really excited for a codex as they get to experiment with so many new ways to play the army. Keeping all of the units the same even with the formations/detachment....won't really change the way the army still plays, nor will the rumoured "doubled Markerlight" thing fix the issues we have with the codex. There's some major internal balance issues that I doubt formations can straight up fix, namely that there is a handful of garbage units, a lot of decent units, and a lot of over-powered units (at least in the context of the codex itself). Markerlights are still imbalanced against most armies (i.e. Tyranids, Ravenwing) and nigh useless against others (death-stars) and the doubling up will only make that disparity even more apparent, though at the very least it will kind of help them to put a bit more of a dent into a death-star.
Not a Tau player myself but I really understand the frustrations of many players. Again, the army is only going to get better, but unless they get lots of really cool unit-specific buffs from the formations then the competitive builds will basically become "whatever you took last codex, plus the new units, reorganized into this detachment and formations". That might have worked for Space Marines because the entirety of that codex has solid rules, but for an army with wildly schizophrenic internal balance like Tau? Not a good idea, at all, and a slap in the face to Tau players considering how much every 7th Edition army has changed (whether for better or worse).
Of course, I have to point out that this is still an unknown and we might be kicking up a storm over nothing, as the Fireblade moving to Troops would certainly suggest there are going to be changes. If it does end up being the case, it will suck big time, but I'm guessing the players that were really happy with the current codex will be partly satisfied (even they would probably like something different).
Fair enough - I can confirm that Tau dedicated transports (the Devilfish at least) also received the Fast Attack treatment according to the tiny codex preview.
Yay! That makes that 80pt price tag a bit more palatable. If hammerheads get it too, they might actually be somewhat useful again.
I think he means they fall into the "Fast Attack" category of the FOC, not that they have the "Fast" vehicle special rule.
Fair enough - I can confirm that Tau dedicated transports (the Devilfish at least) also received the Fast Attack treatment according to the tiny codex preview.
Yay! That makes that 80pt price tag a bit more palatable. If hammerheads get it too, they might actually be somewhat useful again.
I think he means they fall into the "Fast Attack" category of the FOC, not that they have the "Fast" vehicle special rule.
I think they understand, what this does is allow Kroot and other units to take Devilfishes without having to "hijack" them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Honestly I think Tau players would be ok with the current codex if you gave meaningful buffs to Vespid/Sniper Drones/Devilfishes/Hammerheads. The latter two of those aren't bad units but to say their popularity nose-dived with the 6th Edition codex would be an understatement. The current codex encourages static play that is against the spirit of the faction fluff-wise which is a big problem, not to mention the book lacks variety with its competitive builds (something all of the Necron and post Necron books don't suffer from).
While I do I trust the intent of the rumor posters and German WD translators etc...
I'm not sure I trust this whole "Get the New tau rules in the Codex OR the Campaign book".
-I'm not sure I trust that regardless of verbage in a WD article that the rules provided in the Campaign book will be comprehensive.
-I certainly don't trust that GW will be able to keep these two versions of the rules completely in sync. I don't expect GW to reproduce the entire Tau army list/rules verbatim into what is a campaign book for what is a small portion of Tau background history. that means they will provide rules in a different fashion. This has a strong likelihood of creating disparity between the two books rulewise.
We know the rules for existing units have changed somewhat. Fire Warriors gained a the DS8 turret option. they are unlikely to post an entire entry for Fire warior Strike teams for page space purposes if the only thing that changes is a single option point, so it means this option will likely be provided in a different format than is the codex. The formatting of rules plays nearly as distinct a hand in rules interpretation as the words themselves. (as formatting is a form of punctuation, which can dynamically change the means of the word they govern.)
This makes me a bit antsy. It won't affect me personally, but it just seems to introduce unnecessary risks into the total rule-base.
warboss wrote: Do you guys know there is a handy dandy ignore function on dakka, right?
GREAT advice. thanks! You forget those things exist sometimes.
I've said my piece on why I understand all of the complaints about the rumoured/confirmed (however you wanna call it) lack of changes to existing unit, but personally I'm going to wait until the codex comes out before I say anything else which I think is a good idea. Again, if the Fireblade moved to Troops - as did Drones temporarily before they went out of stock - on the webstore then that probably means that there will be some changes to existing units.
I don't like those rumoured Contingent benefits. They're too linked to markerlights. After you lose all your ML sources, they become moot.
I was pretty excited by this release back in September... now I'm disappointed. SM, Eldar, Necrons and DA all had pretty big changes in their line... we get new formations (they too), tactical cards (they too), our warlord traits are the same (I can't stand 1-use WTs) and, worst of all, most statlines are the same. GAAH! Feck GW.
I bet there will be Tactical Objectives involving Assault Phase or Fear tests.
Fair enough - I can confirm that Tau dedicated transports (the Devilfish at least) also received the Fast Attack treatment according to the tiny codex preview.
Yay! That makes that 80pt price tag a bit more palatable. If hammerheads get it too, they might actually be somewhat useful again.
There's no reason for Hammerheads to become Fast Attack.
Vector Strike wrote: I don't like those rumoured Contingent benefits. They're too linked to markerlights. After you lose all your ML sources, they become moot.
I was pretty excited by this release back in September... now I'm disappointed. SM, Eldar, Necrons and DA all had pretty big changes in their line... we get new formations (they too), tactical cards (they too), our warlord traits are the same (I can't stand 1-use WTs) and, worst of all, most statlines are the same. GAAH! Feck GW.
I bet there will be Tactical Objectives involving Assault Phase or Fear tests.
Fair enough - I can confirm that Tau dedicated transports (the Devilfish at least) also received the Fast Attack treatment according to the tiny codex preview.
Yay! That makes that 80pt price tag a bit more palatable. If hammerheads get it too, they might actually be somewhat useful again.
There's no reason for Hammerheads to become Fast Attack.
There were two tactical objectives previewed in the WD - one gave you a VP if a unit in your deployment zone destroyed an enemy unit that turn.
Re: the markerlight thing, I'm honestly doubting the rumour too, but because it'd be just far too good.
Essentially bringing the same markerlight saturation you have now would give you twice the coverage, which either means you have far more than you need or you can afford to bring half the number of markerlights and still be at the same level.
That plus the ability for regular units to get what is for all intents and purposes networked markerlights, which will synergize particularly well with Supporting Fire. Suddenly that single marker drone and the markerlight on the Shas'Ui have the potential to increase the potency of their unit's overwatch immensely.
The only thing that makes me think the rumour is true is that it follows the pattern of the other army detachment special rules, because it ties in with a key facet of the army. Necrons have RP - detachment makes RP better, SM have Combat Doctrines - detachment gives them multiple uses, etc etc.
Markerlights are entirely unique to Tau, they're intrinsic to the army, the entire list is based around them. Having a detachment special rule that keys into that unique aspect and enhances it seems likely.
Caederes wrote: The double Markerlights think sounds both fluffy and insane.
Here's the weird thing about the "use the old codex" thing...we know the Fireblade is now a Troops coice due to his slot swap on the web store, as are Drones (before they were taken off they got put in Troops).
Thoughts?
He's a character that is associated with the Fire Warrior Teams?
If I had to guess, he'll be a required part for a Fire Warrior formation that takes up a "Core" slot so he gets put there.
All of the Core formations we've seen so far have featured units from other slots than Troops but none of them have ever been moved to the Troops slot on the webstore to my knowledge. This says to me the Fireblade is getting a FoC swap....which would mean that there are changes to the units. Honestly though I'm just holding out hope.
This part isn't directed at anyone in particular; I think some people are missing the point with regards to why a lot of people are complaining about the lack of codex changes. The point is not that the competitive status of the army will weaken or stay the same; it will only get better because of the numerous additions (detachment, formations, new units, etc), meaning the army will still be much closer to being top tier than the majority of other codices in the game and thus still in a good place with regards to tournaments while receiving potentially massive boosts. The big problem is that it means that unless you want to buy new units or the formations significantly change the way the army plays - which they usually do, to be fair - there's no real "excitement" to be had with the new codex. Remember how much we were gushing when Dreadnoughts were given Chapter Tactics and 4 Attacks base? Sure, in the long run it doesn't make them super competitive as we might hope but it was still a really cool change that everyone adored. Heck, what about when all of the Eldar Aspect Warriors became super duper good and actually started to match their fluff with all their crazy unique special rules; all of my Eldar-playing friends and everyone I read about online was jumping for joy when that happened. Stuff like that is what makes most players get really excited for a codex as they get to experiment with so many new ways to play the army. Keeping all of the units the same even with the formations/detachment....won't really change the way the army still plays, nor will the rumoured "doubled Markerlight" thing fix the issues we have with the codex. There's some major internal balance issues that I doubt formations can straight up fix, namely that there is a handful of garbage units, a lot of decent units, and a lot of over-powered units (at least in the context of the codex itself). Markerlights are still imbalanced against most armies (i.e. Tyranids, Ravenwing) and nigh useless against others (death-stars) and the doubling up will only make that disparity even more apparent, though at the very least it will kind of help them to put a bit more of a dent into a death-star.
Not a Tau player myself but I really understand the frustrations of many players. Again, the army is only going to get better, but unless they get lots of really cool unit-specific buffs from the formations then the competitive builds will basically become "whatever you took last codex, plus the new units, reorganized into this detachment and formations". That might have worked for Space Marines because the entirety of that codex has solid rules, but for an army with wildly schizophrenic internal balance like Tau? Not a good idea, at all, and a slap in the face to Tau players considering how much every 7th Edition army has changed (whether for better or worse).
Of course, I have to point out that this is still an unknown and we might be kicking up a storm over nothing, as the Fireblade moving to Troops would certainly suggest there are going to be changes. If it does end up being the case, it will suck big time, but I'm guessing the players that were really happy with the current codex will be partly satisfied (even they would probably like something different).
THIS. SO MUCH THIS.
Thanks for putting it in words. I may use this line of thinking elsewhere.
Additionally, Eldar got the guaranteed 6" Run moves army-wide. Dark Angels are the outlier as far as I can tell; they get full Ballistic Skill Overwatch, but unless I'm mistaken the whole improved Overwatch thing for Dark Angels only appeared in the 7th Edition codex. Tau could be another army to buck that trend.
Personally, I think a +1 Ballistic Skill bonus to all units in the detachment would be cooler. It has the same effect of requiring less Markerlights while simultaneously providing a huge buff to all units in the army rather than being a buff specific to certain elements of the army. As Vector Strike pointed out giving mega-buffs to Markerlights alone would mean that killing the source of the Markerlights would make the army then play as normal from then on, unlike any of the other unique detachments who have permanent army-wide bonuses.
I think giving us a blanket +1 BS considering we have markerlights would be a bit insane.
One could argue it removes the requirement for markerlights and you can bring more firepower. But on the same token, you can make your current list absolutely nasty by making everyone BS5 with a single mark and not feel like youre trading BS for ignores cover benefits.
I'm not sure what other detachment bonus you could reasonably give Tau though. The Overwatch bonus is already locked down by Dark Angels and so far none of the codices have shared detachment bonuses. It would be really strong, sure, but it's better than anything else I can think of.
What about free Drones for everyone? Too strong as well?
There's no reason for Hammerheads to become Fast Attack.
Yeah, I think that I only saw what I wanted to and thought it meant that they were 'fast' which I would love devilfish and hammerheads to be. My mistake.
Caederes wrote: I've said my piece on why I understand all of the complaints about the rumoured/confirmed (however you wanna call it) lack of changes to existing unit, but personally I'm going to wait until the codex comes out before I say anything else which I think is a good idea. Again, if the Fireblade moved to Troops - as did Drones temporarily before they went out of stock - on the webstore then that probably means that there will be some changes to existing units.
I really liked your piece; it definitely got an Exalt from me.
Not to dismiss what Dr. Delorean has done, but I think it's important to wait for the full codex to come out. All the spoilers we have had so far, while very credible, are only from the White Dwarf and the campaign book. The full Tau Empire codex may have important changes to special rules and wargear that weren't previewed in the White Dwarf.
EDIT: As far as the rumored detachment benefits for Tau, I'm okay wiht them. Getting double Markerlights is one way to solve the problem of not having enough efficiency for Markerlight saturation, and the ability to pay double for a unit to have them basically Networked makes them even better. We will have to see once the full codex is released if the rules for Markerlights themselves change or not.
Caederes wrote: I'm not sure what other detachment bonus you could reasonably give Tau though. The Overwatch bonus is already locked down by Dark Angels and so far none of the codices have shared detachment bonuses. It would be really strong, sure, but it's better than anything else I can think of.
What about free Drones for everyone? Too strong as well?
Reserve Manipulation - Deep Strike units (bar Flyers) can come turn 1. Positional Relay gives +1 to reserve rolls (non-stackable) to outflanking units
Kauyon - For each unit with Infiltrate in this detachment, another unit in the detachment gets scout. Gargantuan/Super-heavies cannot benefit from those.
Mont'ka - For each markerlight removed from a unit, the shooting unit can add +1S instead of +1BS, up to S10 and maximum +2S
Drone Improved Programming - each drone in this detachment becomes BS3 and auto-pass Look Out, Sir! rolls
===
Doubling markerlights and letting ML units use theirs for double the cost ins't very creative.
The Mont'ka is a carefully planned attack designed to wipe out critical enemy defenses or units in single, well-placed strikes. Once the strongest points of enemy resistance are crushed, the remainder of the force can generally be finished off more easily.
The idea is that units can use markelights to attack the weakest part of enemy units, focusing fire to the point only the weak parts of the enemy remain. Mont'ka Mls don't just point where the enemy is, their fires are specialized in locating enemy weakpoints and share targeting solutions to Tau units
MoD_Legion wrote: Sigh no field relay for strike team :(. At least they didnt made them worse, just no change at all to normal firewarriors (except being able to use the turrety thing).
I the DS8 Drone Turret option is a fairly solid change to the unit, so it's hard for me to say the unit did not change at all. My prediction for the future is that Firewarriors Strike Teams fielding these drones will be the constant.
I've always been hoping for some change to the fire warriors for a long time to give them some sort of flare.
For me the easiest method was to introduce Ion/Rail rifle options into the unit. but knowing that it requires a paradigm shift in the Tau design to allow organic weapon upgrade in FW teams in the GD studio, I've given up trying to hypothosize what this should be a long time ago.
The DS8 Support drone, both game-role and background-wise, is one of the best I've seen. (well, that, AND the inclusion of Breachers, which are a new form of Fire Warrior)
Markerlights exist in real life, though theyre used to direct airstrikes. Tau essentially use the same technology but have integrated it into common infantry gear, while we only use it for planes and ships so they know where to strike without having to find the point on their own.
They may not make them stronger attacks but a lot of munitions used today have a huge damage difference between being right on point and off to the side. Both are a hit, but one is a better hit.
The Mont'ka is a carefully planned attack designed to wipe out critical enemy defenses or units in single, well-placed strikes. Once the strongest points of enemy resistance are crushed, the remainder of the force can generally be finished off more easily.
The idea is that units can use markelights to attack the weakest part of enemy units, focusing fire to the point only the weak parts of the enemy remain. Mont'ka Mls don't just point where the enemy is, their fires are specialized in locating enemy weakpoints and share targeting solutions to Tau units
Yeah...that's not what that is actually suggesting.
It's saying that it is an attack that is aimed at critical defenses or units, not weakpoints on those units. It's the difference between "That squad of Terminators is a critical component of the enemy's defense" and "That squad of Terminators' weak points are their necks".
A better idea, going off of your Mont'ka suggestion, would be this:
Mont'ka:
Any unit firing at an enemy unit designated by a Markerlight when this doctrine is your chosen doctrine gains the Preferred Enemy rule
Caederes wrote: I've said my piece on why I understand all of the complaints about the rumoured/confirmed (however you wanna call it) lack of changes to existing unit, but personally I'm going to wait until the codex comes out before I say anything else which I think is a good idea. Again, if the Fireblade moved to Troops - as did Drones temporarily before they went out of stock - on the webstore then that probably means that there will be some changes to existing units.
Figured it was easier to quote you here than the larger entry up top
I personally am still pretty excited. And I am happy that this update didn't cut into the meat of the Tau lists, as changing that would really impact the Tau gameplay. Instead of a fundamental shift we get a new Lord of War, a new (admitedly broken and no one in their right mind will let us play) FW Lord of War, our basic troop choice got split in two with heavy updates, we got a new Monsterous creature Elite, a new Fortification, two new Commander types/upgrades, 8 new formations, a new unique HQ (the new small box ethereal presumably has something to him beyond a new look) and then we get MUCH needed redesigns of our crisis and commander suits. Does that not seem like a lot to everyone else, or am I missing something? I never really thought the stat lines of our existing items needed much changing, especially if these new additions fill the void of our AV14/15 killing, dealing with super melee, and having an answer to the resilient 'crons. I 100% feel we got a better deal with this than say... Orks, Nids, BAs, DAs got with their updates.
From a modeling/hobby perspective I'm annoyed as hell at the new prices by GW - but I also realize I don't have to rebuy ANY of my existing models for this. So while new players are getting fleeced (a new beginners box with a deep discount deserves to exist if they'll have to pay this much for all of the remaining items. Otherwise these prices are seriously looking like what it costs to have a nice low grade crack habit.) those who already have healthy Tau lineups are mostly safe on the stupid crisis/commander/fire warrior/drone prices. I personally am looking forward to taking my old crisis suits, looking where there's wear and tear, and perhaps pock marking them a bit and doing some battle damage to make them stand out as "old" suits with the current load outs they have. Then I'll only get new suits as I want to make new "squads" with combos I want and make them look shiny and new.Could be a fun exercise and reinforce the suit model designations.
Ok, back to work. Enjoying how this thread has finally moved beyond straight up troll posts into honest thoughts on the shape of our imminent changes.
Vineheart01 wrote: Markerlights exist in real life, though theyre used to direct airstrikes. Tau essentially use the same technology but have integrated it into common infantry gear, while we only use it for planes and ships so they know where to strike without having to find the point on their own.
They're used to direct airstrikes/laser guided munitions(hint hint), guide in certain kinds of 'smart' artillery rounds, used alongside of sniper rifles(laser rangefinders) and were used for 'smart' grenade rounds on the XM25 launcher's airburst mode(seen Elysium? that's where the idea for the AK with the airburst rounds came from) and the like.
Markerlights aren't doing anything but 'designating' a target in a way that you would need specialized detection gear to utilize that designation.
They may not make them stronger attacks but a lot of munitions used today have a huge damage difference between being right on point and off to the side. Both are a hit, but one is a better hit.
Sure, but a rifle shot on a designated target isn't going to be able to scratch a tank.
I have been following this new Tau release stuff, and although it looks fantastic, I actually found myself leaning towards Raven Guard! Anyone else go that way?
A better idea, going off of your Mont'ka suggestion, would be this:
Mont'ka:
Any unit firing at an enemy unit designated by a Markerlight when this doctrine is your chosen doctrine gains the Preferred Enemy rule
That's indeed more acceptable. Still, better than doubling up MLs
Honestly?
The problem is that you're trying to equate "creative" with "special rules/boosts". "Creative" can be something as simple as "New/different".
Do you realize how big of a deal a single Markerlight causing double Tokens is?
A 4 man team of Pathfinders potentially giving you 8 Markerlight Tokens for 44 points is huge. It's HUGE.
Think about a unit of Broadsides with Heavy Railrifles firing at an Invis'd Centurion squad with those 8 Markerlight tokens. They could go from BS1(for Snap-Shooting) to BS9, with twin-link to boot.
And that's before adding in anything else like the Missile Drones or SMS or Plasma Rifles or whatever else you've kitted the Broadside out with.
Caederes wrote: I've said my piece on why I understand all of the complaints about the rumoured/confirmed (however you wanna call it) lack of changes to existing unit, but personally I'm going to wait until the codex comes out before I say anything else which I think is a good idea. Again, if the Fireblade moved to Troops - as did Drones temporarily before they went out of stock - on the webstore then that probably means that there will be some changes to existing units.
Figured it was easier to quote you here than the larger entry up top
I personally am still pretty excited. And I am happy that this update didn't cut into the meat of the Tau lists, as changing that would really impact the Tau gameplay. Instead of a fundamental shift we get a new Lord of War, a new (admitedly broken and no one in their right mind will let us play) FW Lord of War, our basic troop choice got split in two with heavy updates, we got a new Monsterous creature Elite, a new Fortification, two new Commander types/upgrades, 8 new formations, a new unique HQ (the new small box ethereal presumably has something to him beyond a new look) and then we get MUCH needed redesigns of our crisis and commander suits. Does that not seem like a lot to everyone else, or am I missing something? I never really thought the stat lines of our existing items needed much changing, especially if these new additions fill the void of our AV14/15 killing, dealing with super melee, and having an answer to the resilient 'crons. I 100% feel we got a better deal with this than say... Orks, Nids, BAs, DAs got with their updates.
From a modeling/hobby perspective I'm annoyed as hell at the new prices by GW - but I also realize I don't have to rebuy ANY of my existing models for this. So while new players are getting fleeced (a new beginners box with a deep discount deserves to exist if they'll have to pay this much for all of the remaining items. Otherwise these prices are seriously looking like what it costs to have a nice low grade crack habit.) those who already have healthy Tau lineups are mostly safe on the stupid crisis/commander/fire warrior/drone prices. I personally am looking forward to taking my old crisis suits, looking where there's wear and tear, and perhaps pock marking them a bit and doing some battle damage to make them stand out as "old" suits with the current load outs they have. Then I'll only get new suits as I want to make new "squads" with combos I want and make them look shiny and new.Could be a fun exercise and reinforce the suit model designations.
Ok, back to work. Enjoying how this thread has finally moved beyond straight up troll posts into honest thoughts on the shape of our imminent changes.
The problem is that it still means a lot of the units no-one took will continue to sit on shelves, and there are quite a few of those units (as mentioned prior, the Tau book has some pretty horrendous internal balance).
As for getting a better deal than other armies, if the rules don't change then Dark Angels will have been a better update from a strictly tournament-based perspective. The army got buffed into the stratosphere.
The problem is that you're trying to equate "creative" with "special rules/boosts". "Creative" can be something as simple as "New/different".
Do you realize how big of a deal a single Markerlight causing double Tokens is?
A 4 man team of Pathfinders potentially giving you 8 Markerlight Tokens for 44 points is huge. It's HUGE.
Think about a unit of Broadsides with Heavy Railrifles firing at an Invis'd Centurion squad with those 8 Markerlight tokens. They could go from BS1(for Snap-Shooting) to BS9, with twin-link to boot.
And that's before adding in anything else like the Missile Drones or SMS or Plasma Rifles or whatever else you've kitted the Broadside out with.
To be fair, you still need to actually hit the Invisible Centurion Squad with the Markerlights first, which doesn't solve the problem Markerlights have of not helping Tau against death-stars. It's undeniably strong but personally I'd rather some other kind of bonus.
There is also this translation that was listed by Mauler for the Burning Dawn
**Rough** translations of the Burning Dawn SRs:
Cadre:
Shrouded?
Master of Beckoning: Once per game Aun'Do can use Invocation to choose two elemental powers instead of one.
Infiltration Cadre: All units in this Formation have the Scout USR. Units that already have the Scout USR gain Infiltrate instead.
Tireless Hunter (Piranha):
+1BS (BS4)
Supporting Fire (Gun Drones only)
Pathfinder Team Aurora:
Scouts
Relentless (Shas'ui Starshroud only) - ((only really benefits firing the markerlight while moving?))
FNP? (Shas'ui Starshroud only)
Bonding Knife Ritual? (mentions ICs so may not be)
Supporting Fire
Stealth Team Shadows Flood(?)
Infiltrate
Precision Shots
Same Bonding Knife Ritual(?) as above
Supporting Fire
Aun'Do
Exemplar of the Selfless Cause
Fearless
IC Invocation Of The Elements
Gear:
Honourblade
Homing Beacon
Hover Drone (not slowed by terrain when moving & charging, may move over intervening models and terrain but may not end movement upon either and automatically passes dangerous terrain tests).
I see the Markerlight rules for ignoring cover still has a cost of 2 tokens which, even as a Tau player, makes me a sad panda - the old 1 token removes 1 point of cover save was far more reasonable. :(
The problem is that you're trying to equate "creative" with "special rules/boosts". "Creative" can be something as simple as "New/different".
Do you realize how big of a deal a single Markerlight causing double Tokens is?
A 4 man team of Pathfinders potentially giving you 8 Markerlight Tokens for 44 points is huge. It's HUGE.
Think about a unit of Broadsides with Heavy Railrifles firing at an Invis'd Centurion squad with those 8 Markerlight tokens. They could go from BS1(for Snap-Shooting) to BS9, with twin-link to boot.
And that's before adding in anything else like the Missile Drones or SMS or Plasma Rifles or whatever else you've kitted the Broadside out with.
To be fair, you still need to actually hit the Invisible Centurion Squad with the Markerlights first, which doesn't solve the problem Markerlights have of not helping Tau against death-stars. It's undeniably strong but personally I'd rather some other kind of bonus.
It's undeniably strong because Markerlights as they are now, only have to hit to cause their effect, and are considered fairly strong to begin with. All you need, quite literally, is one good volley of hits with Markerlights from a unit and the right unit kitted out with non-ordnance/blast weaponry to negate a death-star.
The problem is that it still means a lot of the units no-one took will continue to sit on shelves, and there are quite a few of those units (as mentioned prior, the Tau book has some pretty horrendous internal balance).
As for getting a better deal than other armies, if the rules don't change then Dark Angels will have been a better update from a strictly tournament-based perspective. The army got buffed into the stratosphere.
Completely agreed on the internal balance issue. Stealth Suits, sniper drone teams, pathfinders, Vespids and both of the fliers are really just not relevant currently. I'm moving FWs out of that group with these new teams and their new heavy weapon-ish turrets. The Fliers are really the most pathetic of the lot, they simply need much lower points to be worth anything, or a reworking of their armaments to let these graham-cracker armor'd things out there to play. Kroot aren't irrelevant simply because you must take some troop choice for the core-dex troop choice, and their outflanking/reserve with hound gives them more of a chance to play a worthwhile roll before death than current-dex firewarrior squads. The Devilfish could also use a point drop, but that's just wishing at this point, we all know it isn't going to happen.
The rest of it though is all pretty relevant in the current meta. Oh and for anyone who wants to jump on me for pathfinders being listed, it's just because they're straight up irrelevant with drone controllers and marker drones. If you're using Pathfinders ifor fluff/fun or just because that's what you have available, by all means. It's better than no MLs! But they're just so easily killed and nowhere near as consistent as ML drones, Skyrays, or FW Tetras.
That said.. nearly every army has a few units you're simply better off never taking.. don't they? Would anyone say there's a dex out there without a handful of "why would I take that" entries? I'd agree that having this as the norm shouldn't be the case and if GW wanted to do themselves a favor they'd simply focus on bringing the tail end units back up in relevancy.. but hey who knows. Maybe the new formations will go a long way towards doing that. Will see.
The problem is that you're trying to equate "creative" with "special rules/boosts". "Creative" can be something as simple as "New/different".
Do you realize how big of a deal a single Markerlight causing double Tokens is?
A 4 man team of Pathfinders potentially giving you 8 Markerlight Tokens for 44 points is huge. It's HUGE.
Think about a unit of Broadsides with Heavy Railrifles firing at an Invis'd Centurion squad with those 8 Markerlight tokens. They could go from BS1(for Snap-Shooting) to BS9, with twin-link to boot.
And that's before adding in anything else like the Missile Drones or SMS or Plasma Rifles or whatever else you've kitted the Broadside out with.
And after turn 2/3, when the enemy managed to kill all your markerlight units... the contigent boost is thrown away. In fact, if you don't start turn 1, you'll severely reduce your potential as the enemy kills your ML units ASAP.
a 4-man PF will realistically hit twice. 4 MLs, ok. Next turn they're wiped off or, if you lose initative, will be already wiped off when your turn start.
Is the benefit good? Undoubtly. Is the benefit effective for the entire game? No. Eldar, Dark Angels, Space Marines and Necrons ARE. That's my problem with this potential Hunter Contingent bonus.
You won't hit 8 ML in a Invisible unit. The chances are so small that's not a feasible scenario.
And what's the problem with creative = special rules? Eldar did it (run faster), Necrons did it (boost resistance), SM did it (Combat Doctrines). All fluff AND good. Dark Angels missed it (supreme overwatch isn't dark angels thing), and now Tau has... double markerlights. yey.
GreyDragoon wrote:That said.. nearly every army has a few units you're simply better off never taking.. don't they? Would anyone say there's a dex out there without a handful of "why would I take that" entries? I'd agree that having this as the norm shouldn't be the case and if GW wanted to do themselves a favor they'd simply focus on bringing the tail end units back up in relevancy.. but hey who knows. Maybe the new formations will go a long way towards doing that. Will see.
But that shouldn't happen. All units should be interesting to be fielded. Formations aren't there to turn bad units in good units, but to give a group of selected units some special rules because they're working together, fluff-wise.
GreyDragoon wrote:That said.. nearly every army has a few units you're simply better off never taking.. don't they? Would anyone say there's a dex out there without a handful of "why would I take that" entries? I'd agree that having this as the norm shouldn't be the case and if GW wanted to do themselves a favor they'd simply focus on bringing the tail end units back up in relevancy.. but hey who knows. Maybe the new formations will go a long way towards doing that. Will see.
But that shouldn't happen. All units should be interesting to be fielded. Formations aren't there to turn bad units in good units, but to give a group of selected units some special rules because they're working together, fluff-wise.
Sounds like we're agreeing here that it shouldn't be the case that any units are trash or irrelevant. I think my argument though is that it's a broader GW problem that needs to be resolved, rather than a specific issue with the Tau dex. Everyone currently suffers from this problem don't they?
I skimmed over the last few pages and didn't see the English WD page saying there are no changes besides the new units, so here it is: http://imgur.com/xBawNWr
The problem is that you're trying to equate "creative" with "special rules/boosts". "Creative" can be something as simple as "New/different".
Do you realize how big of a deal a single Markerlight causing double Tokens is?
A 4 man team of Pathfinders potentially giving you 8 Markerlight Tokens for 44 points is huge. It's HUGE.
Think about a unit of Broadsides with Heavy Railrifles firing at an Invis'd Centurion squad with those 8 Markerlight tokens. They could go from BS1(for Snap-Shooting) to BS9, with twin-link to boot.
And that's before adding in anything else like the Missile Drones or SMS or Plasma Rifles or whatever else you've kitted the Broadside out with.
And after turn 2/3, when the enemy managed to kill all your markerlight units... the contigent boost is thrown away. In fact, if you don't start turn 1, you'll severely reduce your potential as the enemy kills your ML units ASAP.
Then stop putting Markerlight units out in the open at the start of the game?
This isn't difficult. You are not handicapped by putting Markerlight units in cover. You have a 36" threat range with the things. That's an absurdly long range for what they give you.
a 4-man PF will realistically hit twice. 4 MLs, ok. Next turn they're wiped off or, if you lose initative, will be already wiped off when your turn start.
4 ML Tokens=+4 BS or Ignores Cover and +2 BS.
That's a pretty big benefit for "realistically hitting twice".
Is the benefit good? Undoubtly. Is the benefit effective for the entire game? No. Eldar, Dark Angels, Space Marines and Necrons ARE. That's my problem with this potential Hunter Contingent bonus.
No, your problem with it is that it is not some kind of "free" benefit from how it is reported. People neglect that Space Marines' "free transports" are barebones and consist of DEDICATED TRANSPORTS FOR UNITS THAT CAN TAKE THEM(read: you can't put someone else in them at the start of the game, so Drop Pods lose their biggest exploitative benefit unless you join an IC to the unit).
Dark Angels' biggest benefits come from being charged, Eldar are just broken period on their book, and Necrons have some broken stuff that is being exploited to hell and high water.
You won't hit 8 ML in a Invisible unit. The chances are so small that's not a feasible scenario.
The chances are small, certainly for one unit firing, but they aren't impossible. And hitting 4 Markerlights on an Invisible unit granting you 8 with this rumored change to Markerlights? That's big. You can dispute this all you want, but if this change goes through it becomes an absolute no brainer for people to take Markerlight Drone Squads or Pathfinders.
And what's the problem with creative = special rules? Eldar did it (run faster), Necrons did it (boost resistance), SM did it (Combat Doctrines). All fluff AND good. Dark Angels missed it (supreme overwatch isn't dark angels thing), and now Tau has... double markerlights. yey.
Actually? "Supreme Overwatch" very much is a Dark Angels thing. They have always been noted as being intractable, sticking to a rigid fireplan up until the last moment.
Additionally, you have creative special rules. Ethereals and Cadre Fireblades grant you unique abilities, as do Markerlights.
Thud wrote: I skimmed over the last few pages and didn't see the English WD page saying there are no changes besides the new units, so here it is: http://imgur.com/xBawNWr
The fact that the cover art is unchanged says a lot to me
Sounds like we're agreeing here that it shouldn't be the case that any units are trash or irrelevant. I think my argument though is that it's a broader GW problem that needs to be resolved, rather than a specific issue with the Tau dex. Everyone currently suffers from this problem don't they?
Indeed. I think the best thing GW ever did regarding this, at least intra-book, was with Eldar. The aspect warriors received specific buffs and now they really feel like what they can do in the fluff (warp spiders and fire dragons buffs were too much, on the toher hand):
Dire Avengers: better overwatch or counter-charge
Fire Dragons: +1 to vehicle damage table
Howling Banshees: +3" Run/Charge, no Init penalty, cannot be overwatched
Striking Scorpions: Shrouded if not move/charge
Swooping Hawks: AA grenades
Warp Spiders: jump everytime they're targeted
Dark Reapers: re-roll againsst stuff that zoomed, turbo-boosted, swooped or flat-out'ed
Shining Spears: cover bonus if moved
And from all these, only shining spears are seem as "meh" by Eldar players. Other codexes should get something similar to their units
So if one were interested in starting Tau what would be some safe purchases without seeing the codex first? I have a small idea but I am not sure and I really, really hate the kroot, vespid and stealth suit models.
Another question I have is bout markerlights and how many is a good number to have. Say I have 2 skyray would I need 2 pathfinder units for markerlights as well?
I really like the Piranha model, what is a good number to have when taking them?
Thud wrote: I skimmed over the last few pages and didn't see the English WD page saying there are no changes besides the new units, so here it is: http://imgur.com/xBawNWr
Then stop putting Markerlight units out in the open at the start of the game?
This isn't difficult. You are not handicapped by putting Markerlight units in cover. You have a 36" threat range with the things. That's an absurdly long range for what they give you.
I don't put them out in the open, but I'm not naive to believe they'll survive past turn 3. People around here understood killing them is important and, Sky Ray aside, they are all pretty fragile. I fight drop pod flamer units, ignores cover artillery, fast melee or just high volume of fire. Drones, pathfinders and tetras don't survive that.
a 4-man PF will realistically hit twice. 4 MLs, ok. Next turn they're wiped off or, if you lose initative, will be already wiped off when your turn start.
4 ML Tokens=+4 BS or Ignores Cover and +2 BS.
That's a pretty big benefit for "realistically hitting twice".
Yep, until they're killed. Remaining Eldar units still run +6", SM still have the best moment to use Doctrines, Dark Angels still fire at BS4, Necrons still roll RP at 4+.
Kanluwen wrote: No, your problem with it is that it is not some kind of "free" benefit from how it is reported. People neglect that Space Marines' "free transports" are barebones and consist of DEDICATED TRANSPORTS FOR UNITS THAT CAN TAKE THEM(read: you can't put someone else in them at the start of the game, so Drop Pods lose their biggest exploitative benefit unless you join an IC to the unit).
Dark Angels' biggest benefits come from being charged, Eldar are just broken period on their book, and Necrons have some broken stuff that is being exploited to hell and high water.
No, my problem is having Tau codex weaker than the most played one (SM). I don't want Eldar levels of power, but I (and I'm not alone in this) want SM levels of power. I want to have possibility to win (and not to stomp over) against any other army around, as I want them to have the same power towards me. Oh, and a benefit that endure the entire game, just like theirs.
The chances are small, certainly for one unit firing, but they aren't impossible. And hitting 4 Markerlights on an Invisible unit granting you 8 with this rumored change to Markerlights? That's big. You can dispute this all you want, but if this change goes through it becomes an absolute no brainer for people to take Markerlight Drone Squads or Pathfinders.
So you want to spend all markerlights in a unit made to attract fire? I rather kill the rest of his/her army. For that I don't need double MLs.
It improves our capability on dealing with Invisible units, but we'll still spend a lot of resources on that - more than the invisible unit costed.
Actually? "Supreme Overwatch" very much is a Dark Angels thing. They have always been noted as being intractable, sticking to a rigid fireplan up until the last moment.
Additionally, you have creative special rules. Ethereals and Cadre Fireblades grant you unique abilities, as do Markerlights.
No, good overwatch is much more an Imperial Fists thing. Even DA players have said that.
Doubling markerlights is efficient, but not creative. It adds nothing new to army. Invocation of Elements did.
===
In the end, no point discussing this anymore, Kanluwen. You like the Contingent benefit, I wish it was different. Let's agree to disagree.
Sounds like we're agreeing here that it shouldn't be the case that any units are trash or irrelevant. I think my argument though is that it's a broader GW problem that needs to be resolved, rather than a specific issue with the Tau dex. Everyone currently suffers from this problem don't they?
Indeed. I think the best thing GW ever did regarding this, at least intra-book, was with Eldar. The aspect warriors received specific buffs and now they really feel like what they can do in the fluff (warp spiders and fire dragons buffs were too much, on the toher hand):
Dire Avengers: better overwatch or counter-charge
Fire Dragons: +1 to vehicle damage table
Howling Banshees: +3" Run/Charge, no Init penalty, cannot be overwatched
Striking Scorpions: Shrouded if not move/charge
Swooping Hawks: AA grenades
Warp Spiders: jump everytime they're targeted
Dark Reapers: re-roll againsst stuff that zoomed, turbo-boosted, swooped or flat-out'ed
Shining Spears: cover bonus if moved
And from all these, only shining spears are seem as "meh" by Eldar players. Other codexes should get something similar to their units
Sounds good to me. Honestly I don't mind those aspect warrior buffs much.. although the warp spiders one is more than a little eyebrow raising.. are there any limits to that at all? And they warp AFTER being shot at, correct?
Eldar's only problem seems to be the absolute plethora of hard or hard-ish to kill Strength D shooting platforms they're now getting with the revamp from the Craftworld. I mean it's still playable against.. and as Tau if I go first I'm not too worried.. but if they go first it's a little hard to see a path to victory if their dice are even rolling middle of the road. I'm just surprised more of that shooting isn't simple Str 10 Ap 1 with potential instant kill on 6s (that seems more than strong enough on the original WKs hardly needed a buff.)
Deathklaat wrote:So if one were interested in starting Tau what would be some safe purchases without seeing the codex first? I have a small idea but I am not sure and I really, really hate the kroot, vespid and stealth suit models.
Another question I have is bout markerlights and how many is a good number to have. Say I have 2 skyray would I need 2 pathfinder units for markerlights as well?
I really like the Piranha model, what is a good number to have when taking them?
If I were you, I'd wait for the full codex to be released. Noone knows what'll really change, aside Commander and Fire Warriors. Stealth Suits won't, so if you don't like them, no need to buy. Vespids are bad for now, and Kroot, while useful, aren't a no-brainer.
I'd say ML/Army ratio should be around 10% of your points (so, a 2000p list can do with 200p of Markerlight units). You can change this number, of course, until you find yourself comfortable. The problem with too many Mls is that you'll have less firepower.
Piranhas are nice. The more you have in a squadron, the better (because the Drones disembarking from them form a big unit), and they can form an AV11 wall to stop people chargin your more important units. A squad of 3 would be the sweet spot.
Actually? "Supreme Overwatch" very much is a Dark Angels thing. They have always been noted as being intractable, sticking to a rigid fireplan up until the last moment.
Additionally, you have creative special rules. Ethereals and Cadre Fireblades grant you unique abilities, as do Markerlights.
No, good overwatch is much more an Imperial Fists thing. Even DA players have said that.
What DA players have said that? Because I think they don't know DA if they think that it's an Imperial Fists thing.
Imperial Fists are siege experts. DA are stubborn, intractable firing lines.
Doubling markerlights is efficient, but not creative. It adds nothing new to army. Invocation of Elements did.
===
In the end, no point discussing this anymore, Kanluwen. You like the Contingent benefit, I wish it was different. Let's agree to disagree.
You're right. It's not worth discussing anymore.
You and a large number of Tau players that I have seen bemoaning this rumored Contingent benefit focus upon the idea of "we need a way to deal with Invisible units". When the existence of a way is pointed out, you then go on about how it's "too expensive" to utilize that way.
Literally the only thing you cannot do to an Invisible unit as Tau is throw templates at it. That's it.
With proper Markerlight usage and a shift from the standard template spamming loadouts, you could pretty reliably wreck Invisible stuff.
Sounds like we're agreeing here that it shouldn't be the case that any units are trash or irrelevant. I think my argument though is that it's a broader GW problem that needs to be resolved, rather than a specific issue with the Tau dex. Everyone currently suffers from this problem don't they?
Indeed. I think the best thing GW ever did regarding this, at least intra-book, was with Eldar. The aspect warriors received specific buffs and now they really feel like what they can do in the fluff (warp spiders and fire dragons buffs were too much, on the toher hand):
Dire Avengers: better overwatch or counter-charge
Fire Dragons: +1 to vehicle damage table
Howling Banshees: +3" Run/Charge, no Init penalty, cannot be overwatched
Striking Scorpions: Shrouded if not move/charge
Swooping Hawks: AA grenades
Warp Spiders: jump everytime they're targeted
Dark Reapers: re-roll againsst stuff that zoomed, turbo-boosted, swooped or flat-out'ed
Shining Spears: cover bonus if moved
And from all these, only shining spears are seem as "meh" by Eldar players. Other codexes should get something similar to their units
Sounds good to me. Honestly I don't mind those aspect warrior buffs much.. although the warp spiders one is more than a little eyebrow raising.. are there any limits to that at all? And they warp AFTER being shot at, correct?
Eldar's only problem seems to be the absolute plethora of hard or hard-ish to kill Strength D shooting platforms they're now getting with the revamp from the Craftworld. I mean it's still playable against.. and as Tau if I go first I'm not too worried.. but if they go first it's a little hard to see a path to victory if their dice are even rolling middle of the road. I'm just surprised more of that shooting isn't simple Str 10 Ap 1 with potential instant kill on 6s (that seems more than strong enough on the original WKs hardly needed a buff.)
Warp Spiders are so strong that they're nearly broken in some cases. They can jump after being targeted, not shot. So 90% of the time they're just going to jump out of range or behind a building unless you devote serious resources to surround them and cut them off. Not to mention that they have Rending guns that wound most things in the game on a 2+, and hit on 2s because they're almost always in the Aspect Host formation.
But that's neither here nor there in the Tau thread
GreyDragoon wrote: Sounds good to me. Honestly I don't mind those aspect warrior buffs much.. although the warp spiders one is more than a little eyebrow raising.. are there any limits to that at all? And they warp AFTER being shot at, correct?
Eldar's only problem seems to be the absolute plethora of hard or hard-ish to kill Strength D shooting platforms they're now getting with the revamp from the Craftworld. I mean it's still playable against.. and as Tau if I go first I'm not too worried.. but if they go first it's a little hard to see a path to victory if their dice are even rolling middle of the road. I'm just surprised more of that shooting isn't simple Str 10 Ap 1 with potential instant kill on 6s (that seems more than strong enough on the original WKs hardly needed a buff.)
Warp Spiders jump the moment they are target (i.e. when you say unit X will fire at them, before rolling dice). So they can jump and stay farther than your weapon range. AFAIK, there's no limit to that special ability.
While I understand GW's position with Eldar (The most ancient race, so have the most advanced weaponry), they're not costed as such. Having D weapons isn't the problem - having D weapons in a 32p model is.
Thud wrote: I skimmed over the last few pages and didn't see the English WD page saying there are no changes besides the new units, so here it is: http://imgur.com/xBawNWr
Thud wrote: I skimmed over the last few pages and didn't see the English WD page saying there are no changes besides the new units, so here it is: http://imgur.com/xBawNWr
Thud wrote: I skimmed over the last few pages and didn't see the English WD page saying there are no changes besides the new units, so here it is: http://imgur.com/xBawNWr
Spoiler:
Anyone know what the Retribution Cadre is?
Lol it is 2 stormsurges and 3 Ghostkeels. So basically 1135 points without any upgrades. It is one of the available bundles on GW website. (labeled as Heavy Retribution Cadre)
So overall it sounds like all the good signature systems are sticking around and we're adding a super detachment and a decent number of new formations and units. Guess we know what the actual costs are for most items at this point then. I'll probably grab the campaign book myself because I have the previous codex. It's an interesting approach.
I guess how good Tau end up is based on those formations and the updated unit entries for FW and Crisis.
Lol it is 2 stormsurges and 3 Ghostkeels. So basically 1135 points without any upgrades. It is one of the available bundles on GW website. (labeled as Heavy Retribution Cadre)
It's also known as the "we want to sell our new big units" cadre.
Thud wrote: I skimmed over the last few pages and didn't see the English WD page saying there are no changes besides the new units, so here it is: http://imgur.com/xBawNWr
Spoiler:
Interesting, comparing the Devilfish in the pictures and the 6e codex, it looks like not only is the 7e Devilfish a Fast Attack choice instead of just a Dedicated Transport, but it appears to have significantly more options than the 6e codex.
For reference, the 6e Devilfish has three options.
Busy day, apologies, but no time to read all the posts. A customer just came in saying the rumors report that the new Tau Codex is a reprint. This is false.
-The new Codex has all the old material, plus the rules for new units.
-The campaign book has all the rules for new units.
The confusion stems from a line in WD telling veteran players that if they have the old codex, then they should get the campaign book.
Yep, basically you can have it all in one source (new Tau codex) or you can have it in two sources and get extra campaign stuff (current tau codex + campaign supplement). Both appear to work based on GW's wording.
mikhaila wrote: Busy day, apologies, but no time to read all the posts. A customer just came in saying the rumors report that the new Tau Codex is a reprint. This is false.
-The new Codex has all the old material, plus the rules for new units.
-The campaign book has all the rules for new units.
The confusion stems from a line in WD telling veteran players that if they have the old codex, then they should get the campaign book.
My understanding is this...
GAMERS WHO ONLY CARE ABOUT RULES
1. If you're intending on purchasing the Campaign book AND you already own the old Codex, the only advantage to buying the new Codex is that you only have one book to carry around when you're not interested in the Campaign elements. If you don't mind carrying around two books when you play, the new Codex has nothing to offer.
2. If you're not intending on purchasing the Campaign book, buy the new Codex. You'll need it for the new Datasheets and Detachments/Formations.
GAMERS WHO CARE ABOUT RULES AND BACKGROUND
Buy both new books as they both have new/updated fluff. Your old Codex is now redundant.
Thud wrote: I skimmed over the last few pages and didn't see the English WD page saying there are no changes besides the new units, so here it is: http://imgur.com/xBawNWr
Interesting, comparing the Devilfish in the pictures and the 6e codex, it looks like not only is the 7e Devilfish a Fast Attack choice instead of just a Dedicated Transport, but it appears to have significantly more options than the 6e codex.
For reference, the 6e Devilfish has three options.
I want to agree with you, but I see nothing in the picture of the DF entry that could not be the same as what the current 6e DF Entry has.
analyzing (nerding out fairly heavily while doing so), the only portion that looks noticeably different is what likely is the Transport capacity section, and that could just be formatting into a smaller horizontal field and wrapping text.
The options section is INDEED three options, but is 5 lines in the 6e codex. the 7e picture looks like 5 lines.
I can't enhance the picture enough to be certain though. (on a side note, other than the circulr icon in the UL corner, I don't even see it distinctly as an FA designation, though I will take other's word for it.).
If you have an enhance image, I'd be keen to see it.
Thud wrote: I skimmed over the last few pages and didn't see the English WD page saying there are no changes besides the new units, so here it is: http://imgur.com/xBawNWr
vitae_drinker wrote: All I want is a formation to field a metric fethton of Crisis Suits.
You have that formation. It's called Farsight Enclave. Just saying.
If its still an option once the new codex drops.
It 100% will be. Thankfully FE was written very well in one (and only one) regard, in that it essentially says all unit types, costs, and wargear etc. are based on the core codex. There are no unique non-character units to FE, just some army-wide rules, a few new Special Issue gears, and access to a new warlord table. So the core codex can change as many times as it wants, the FE is still usable.
mikhaila wrote: Busy day, apologies, but no time to read all the posts. A customer just came in saying the rumors report that the new Tau Codex is a reprint. This is false.
-The new Codex has all the old material, plus the rules for new units.
-The campaign book has all the rules for new units.
The confusion stems from a line in WD telling veteran players that if they have the old codex, then they should get the campaign book.
I believe everyone at this point understands the new codex will have the new units, tactical objectives and Hunter Contingent. What people want to know is if singular units will be tweaked - Kroot, Vespid, Piranhas, Hammerheads, Sky Rays, Riptides, Cadre Fireblades, Bodyguards, Crisis, Broadsides, Sniper Teams, Aun'Shi, Aun'Va, Farsight, Shadowsun, Darkstrider, Drones, planes and Longstrike. We know Devilfishes have more options, Ethereals are more or less the same, Pathfinders and Stealth Suits are the same, Commander is similar with one upgrade and Fire Warriors got a small buff.
Did these units change? How much? If they didn't, the reason to buy the new codex drops drastically and will be treated as a semi-reprint.
vitae_drinker wrote: All I want is a formation to field a metric fethton of Crisis Suits.
You have that formation. It's called Farsight Enclave. Just saying.
If its still an option once the new codex drops.
It 100% will be. Thankfully FE was written very well in one (and only one) regard, in that it essentially says all unit types, costs, and wargear etc. are based on the core codex. There are no unique non-character units to FE, just some army-wide rules, a few new Special Issue gears, and access to a new warlord table. So the core codex can change as many times as it wants, the FE is still usable.
I'm aware, but maybe I don't always want to pay the bonding knife tax.
vitae_drinker wrote: All I want is a formation to field a metric fethton of Crisis Suits.
You have that formation. It's called Farsight Enclave. Just saying.
If its still an option once the new codex drops.
It 100% will be. Thankfully FE was written very well in one (and only one) regard, in that it essentially says all unit types, costs, and wargear etc. are based on the core codex. There are no unique non-character units to FE, just some army-wide rules, a few new Special Issue gears, and access to a new warlord table. So the core codex can change as many times as it wants, the FE is still usable.
Based on what? They dropped the Iyanden supplement when the new Eldar codex came out so its a possibility that it will no longer be a valid publication.
I would be absolutely shocked if there isn't a Crisis Suit heavy formation.
I'm expecting to see three XV8 Teams as a single Formation with special rules that let them come in from Reserves at the same time or something similar. This will probably fulfill an Aux roll in the Hunter Contigent (which I'm assuming will be a Decurion style Detachment).
GAMERS WHO ONLY CARE ABOUT RULES
1. If you're intending on purchasing the Campaign book AND you already own the old Codex, the only advantage to buying the new Codex is that you only have one book to carry around when you're not interested in the Campaign elements. If you don't mind carrying around two books when you play, the new Codex has nothing to offer.
2. If you're not intending on purchasing the Campaign book, buy the new Codex. You'll need it for the new Datasheets and Detachments/Formations.
GAMERS WHO CARE ABOUT RULES AND BACKGROUND
Buy both new books as they both have new/updated fluff. Your old Codex is now redundant.
There's also price. The Campaign book is $75. The Codex is only $50. There's no reason in a play group for everyone to have the Campaign book, so even if you only care about rules, the new codex with the new units may be a better deal. Also, if you don't care about the campaign, there's no reason to buy the campaign book.
Plus, the possibility of minor wording (which may be significant), and like you said, having to lug around 2 books. Rules aside, there are almost certainly new photos/artwork and new fluff, and the organization of the new codex will be consistent with 7e books.
I'm aware, but maybe I don't always want to pay the bonding knife tax.
Crisis pay less than 5p for it. It's not worth for Fire Warriors and such, but Crisis? Of course, you'll need more drones tp really make it count (a unit must have 25% or less of its starting number to need double 1s). 3 Crisis don't need BDR, as they'll have 33% of their starting number remaining. Still, less than 5p per unit to get them as Troops... for me, that's worthy
GAMERS WHO ONLY CARE ABOUT RULES
1. If you're intending on purchasing the Campaign book AND you already own the old Codex, the only advantage to buying the new Codex is that you only have one book to carry around when you're not interested in the Campaign elements. If you don't mind carrying around two books when you play, the new Codex has nothing to offer.
2. If you're not intending on purchasing the Campaign book, buy the new Codex. You'll need it for the new Datasheets and Detachments/Formations.
GAMERS WHO CARE ABOUT RULES AND BACKGROUND
Buy both new books as they both have new/updated fluff. Your old Codex is now redundant.
There's also price. The Campaign book is $75. The Codex is only $50. There's no reason in a play group for everyone to have the Campaign book, so even if you only care about rules, the new codex with the new units may be a better deal. Also, if you don't care about the campaign, there's no reason to buy the campaign book.
Plus, the possibility of minor wording (which may be significant), and like you said, having to lug around 2 books. Rules aside, there are almost certainly new photos/artwork and new fluff, and the organization of the new codex will be consistent with 7e books.
Isn't the campaign book 170$ CAD, since you have to buy Solaq/Burning Dawn?
EDIT: wish I had waited on buying Solaq now, since the new marine formations are all in the $75 book. Sigh.
Interesting, comparing the Devilfish in the pictures and the 6e codex, it looks like not only is the 7e Devilfish a Fast Attack choice instead of just a Dedicated Transport, but it appears to have significantly more options than the 6e codex.
For reference, the 6e Devilfish has three options.
I want to agree with you, but I see nothing in the picture of the DF entry that could not be the same as what the current 6e DF Entry has.
analyzing (nerding out fairly heavily while doing so), the only portion that looks noticeably different is what likely is the Transport capacity section, and that could just be formatting into a smaller horizontal field and wrapping text.
The options section is INDEED three options, but is 5 lines in the 6e codex. the 7e picture looks like 5 lines.
I can't enhance the picture enough to be certain though. (on a side note, other than the circulr icon in the UL corner, I don't even see it distinctly as an FA designation, though I will take other's word for it.).
If you have an enhance image, I'd be keen to see it.
I didn't enhance the image, simply expanded the size to see the number of lines clear enough.
You made a mistake about the 6e codex. It only has four lines for options.
It is at least clear enough that it is fast attack as it has the same slot symbol as the Pathfinders. The Transport Capacity (on the left) seems to be unchanged from the 6e codex (going from length).
It appears to have four/five(?) options and a large block of text on the right wholly omitted from the previous codex.
So far, this is the only picture from the new codex, so I am going to analyze it best I can.
vitae_drinker wrote: Plus you lose access to original signature systems. Of course, Earth Caste pilot array on a Riptide doesn't suck lol
Don't forget the Talisman and (sometimes) the Codex. They can be worth it in a big way.
And what the hell, you're upset about paying a 1pt per model tax to have your Crisis Suits become Objective Secured troop choices? on a 22 pt model.. Really??
GAMERS WHO ONLY CARE ABOUT RULES 1. If you're intending on purchasing the Campaign book AND you already own the old Codex, the only advantage to buying the new Codex is that you only have one book to carry around when you're not interested in the Campaign elements. If you don't mind carrying around two books when you play, the new Codex has nothing to offer. 2. If you're not intending on purchasing the Campaign book, buy the new Codex. You'll need it for the new Datasheets and Detachments/Formations.
GAMERS WHO CARE ABOUT RULES AND BACKGROUND Buy both new books as they both have new/updated fluff. Your old Codex is now redundant.
There's also price. The Campaign book is $75. The Codex is only $50. There's no reason in a play group for everyone to have the Campaign book, so even if you only care about rules, the new codex with the new units may be a better deal. Also, if you don't care about the campaign, there's no reason to buy the campaign book.
Plus, the possibility of minor wording (which may be significant), and like you said, having to lug around 2 books. Rules aside, there are almost certainly new photos/artwork and new fluff, and the organization of the new codex will be consistent with 7e books.
Isn't the campaign book 170$ CAD, since you have to buy Solaq/Burning Dawn?
No, it's the War Zone Damocles: Kauyon. I think $74 USD.. $90 CAD. Going from memory. I just don't see the point of 6 friends all having a $74 book with the same campaign, when 4 or 5 of them could just have the $50 Codex, that's more convenient if you just want the rules.
The Burning Dawn book only has the stuff for the models that come with it... I think. Like, Aun'Do, Infiltration Cadre, etc.
Just saw that. Weak.minguess I'll just pickup Kauyon for my IPad since it is easier to carry around than another book on top of my rule book and codex...
vitae_drinker wrote: Plus you lose access to original signature systems. Of course, Earth Caste pilot array on a Riptide doesn't suck lol
Don't forget the Talisman and (sometimes) the Codex. They can be worth it in a big way.
And what the hell, you're upset about paying a 1pt per model tax to have your Crisis Suits become Objective Secured troop choices? on a 22 pt model.. Really??
Heavy Retribution and Mobile Assault Force are new ones, while the orange ones have been shown or hinted (Retaliation). As we've been told there will be 9 formations, 6 are here. We're missing the core one and other 2. Those in cyan are 2 I think we'll have, with Hunter being the Core one. If we consider the leader-ish formation (can't fathom a name for it) as one of the 9, then we're done. Looking at this, I believe we could have even way more formations - Skysweep could be one made by pathfinders and sky rays, for example.
Infiltration Burning Dawn is from the special box, so not related to those. 10 formations in total, if I'm not mistaken
Does it bother anybody else that the Stormsurge has no arms?
I love the gun. I love the size of the model. I love the aesthetics of the model.
But my brain really wants to see arms on it. It looks wrong to me. GW has once again ALMOST gotten it right but left a massive, disappointing flaw.
I just really want to see the new formations and see if there are any that are good to tack onto my Necrons. I'm not really interested in starting an entire Tau army, but Formations are nice because if you want some specific unit, there's generally a way to get a really good version of it for some tax.
Namely, if I can get some good special/heavy weapons and/or fast shooting units, that'd be nice.
Archonate wrote: Does it bother anybody else that the Stormsurge has no arms?
I love the gun. I love the size of the model. I love the aesthetics of the model.
But my brain really wants to see arms on it. It looks wrong to me. GW has once again ALMOST gotten it right but left a massive, disappointing flaw.
Not really. I love the Battletech-Longbow-esque look. Mortis-Dreads have been doin it for ages too.
Archonate wrote: Does it bother anybody else that the Stormsurge has no arms?
I love the gun. I love the size of the model. I love the aesthetics of the model.
But my brain really wants to see arms on it. It looks wrong to me. GW has once again ALMOST gotten it right but left a massive, disappointing flaw.
The armlessness annoyed me at the start, but it as grown on me. (that will not stop me from giving it arms when I get my own and convert it)
I am a bad judge to base ideas off of there though...the other oft-criticized aesthetic is the exposed cockpit, which I think is kind of cool, but most people do not like.
Archonate wrote: Does it bother anybody else that the Stormsurge has no arms?
I love the gun. I love the size of the model. I love the aesthetics of the model.
But my brain really wants to see arms on it. It looks wrong to me. GW has once again ALMOST gotten it right but left a massive, disappointing flaw.
Absolutely. If I ever got one, I'd convert some onto it.
Archonate wrote: Does it bother anybody else that the Stormsurge has no arms?
I love the gun. I love the size of the model. I love the aesthetics of the model.
But my brain really wants to see arms on it. It looks wrong to me. GW has once again ALMOST gotten it right but left a massive, disappointing flaw.
Absolutely. If I ever got one, I'd convert some onto it.
The thing that pops into my mind immediately is someone converting tiny T-Rex arms onto it
Archonate wrote: Does it bother anybody else that the Stormsurge has no arms?
I love the gun. I love the size of the model. I love the aesthetics of the model.
But my brain really wants to see arms on it. It looks wrong to me. GW has once again ALMOST gotten it right but left a massive, disappointing flaw.
Don't worry, T-Rex bot looks like he can handle himself quite nicely
It's funny to me, not really a disappointment as it is to you apparently. Have to be able to laugh at these things otherwise you're taking your crack addiction (minis) just a little too seriously. And no one is stopping you from droping a few bucks for the Riptide arm bits and just putting those on him. Probably would work quite nicely, could give him the shield (we all know we'll be paying for) on one arm and undersling the big blaster on the other arm. Voila, Rip-Surge.
Initially i had plans on converting arms onto the stormsurge, but i found it doesnt look bad at all when its not in its "taking a dump" pose on the boxart. Also i dont feel confident in my kitbashing skills to scratchbuild the arms to the same level of quality the body is at, that and the socket the arms attach to is a bit dinky and i was afraid it would look odd.
I actually like my Stormsurge paintjob better than the boxart. And its lacking the wear effect and could still use more darkening in spots.
Spoiler:
Right now i have my entire Tau army on the table so i can see what the heck needs to be painted still. The stormsurge is in the way back next to my 2 riptides that are painted (3rd isnt fully assembled yet, he has electronics stuff im trying to re-hide). Every time i walk into my apartment the first thing i see is this behemoth towering over my army lol. Its epic.
Vineheart01 wrote: Initially i had plans on converting arms onto the stormsurge, but i found it doesnt look bad at all when its not in its "taking a dump" pose on the boxart.
Also i dont feel confident in my kitbashing skills to scratchbuild the arms to the same level of quality the body is at, that and the socket the arms attach to is a bit dinky and i was afraid it would look odd.
I actually like my Stormsurge paintjob better than the boxart. And its lacking the wear effect and could still use more darkening in spots.
Spoiler:
Right now i have my entire Tau army on the table so i can see what the heck needs to be painted still. The stormsurge is in the way back next to my 2 riptides that are painted (3rd isnt fully assembled yet, he has electronics stuff im trying to re-hide). Every time i walk into my apartment the first thing i see is this behemoth towering over my army lol. Its epic.
Ghaz wrote: Based on what? They dropped the Iyanden supplement when the new Eldar codex came out so its a possibility that it will no longer be a valid publication.
Iyanden stopped being useful because it refers to a book that is no longer valid (Codex: Eldar) that was replaced with a different book (Codex: Craftworlds). FE Supplement refers to Codex: Tau Empire, which is what the book is still named. Still will work without GW saying it can't.
stompygitz wrote: Anyone here anything about tide wall being sold seperatly? Heard that after this weekend they will go for preorder.
Forget who it was but someone said its the same as the previous fortification bundle - the "limited edition" is the all in one box thing. Some time by the end of the year or so it will be available individually.
If this wasnt GW, i could see making it legit limited edition. But this is GW. They wont ever make a mold and not try to get bookoo bucks from whatever comes out of it. Even all the unique models for the starter packs get them a lot of money because people will buy the whole kit for one model (Deffkoptas anyone? lol...)
Also thanks for the compliments on my Stormsurge guys. Fether took me nearly 3 solid days to paint lol. Coupled with the price, i never intend to get another one. Wont be upset if i get one for free somehow though lol
Ghaz wrote: Based on what? They dropped the Iyanden supplement when the new Eldar codex came out so its a possibility that it will no longer be a valid publication.
Iyanden stopped being useful because it refers to a book that is no longer valid (Codex: Eldar) that was replaced with a different book (Codex: Craftworlds). FE Supplement refers to Codex: Tau Empire, which is what the book is still named. Still will work without GW saying it can't.
And that could have been fixed with a one line FAQ. If the Farsight Enclaves book is removed from sale, we'll know what GW's position on the matter is.
Ghaz wrote: Based on what? They dropped the Iyanden supplement when the new Eldar codex came out so its a possibility that it will no longer be a valid publication.
Iyanden stopped being useful because it refers to a book that is no longer valid (Codex: Eldar) that was replaced with a different book (Codex: Craftworlds). FE Supplement refers to Codex: Tau Empire, which is what the book is still named. Still will work without GW saying it can't.
And that could have been fixed with a one line FAQ.
You're not expecting consistency and common sense from Gw, are you?
Archonate wrote: Does it bother anybody else that the Stormsurge has no arms?
I love the gun. I love the size of the model. I love the aesthetics of the model.
But my brain really wants to see arms on it. It looks wrong to me. GW has once again ALMOST gotten it right but left a massive, disappointing flaw.
The armlessness annoyed me at the start, but it as grown on me. (that will not stop me from giving it arms when I get my own and convert it)
I am a bad judge to base ideas off of there though...the other oft-criticized aesthetic is the exposed cockpit, which I think is kind of cool, but most people do not like.
It's low on my buying list ATM though.
Oh yes. If I get one, it will have arms and they will be glorious.
Ghaz wrote: Based on what? They dropped the Iyanden supplement when the new Eldar codex came out so its a possibility that it will no longer be a valid publication.
Iyanden stopped being useful because it refers to a book that is no longer valid (Codex: Eldar) that was replaced with a different book (Codex: Craftworlds). FE Supplement refers to Codex: Tau Empire, which is what the book is still named. Still will work without GW saying it can't.
And that could have been fixed with a one line FAQ.
You're not expecting consistency and common sense from Gw, are you?
You do realize that supports my position in that we don't know what the fate of the Farsight Enclaves supplement will be once the new codex drops. It will either stay like the Sentinels of Terra supplement or it won't like the Iyanden supplement. Just because some see the Farsight Enclaves supplement working perfectly fine as is with the new codex doesn't mean that it won't be pulled.
derling wrote: ...the other oft-criticized aesthetic is the exposed cockpit, which I think is kind of cool, but most people do not like.
Given that none of the other suits are open topped and that the "head" can't see the ground in front of the crew compartment anyway makes it pretty darn silly to have it that way.
Ghaz wrote: Based on what? They dropped the Iyanden supplement when the new Eldar codex came out so its a possibility that it will no longer be a valid publication.
Iyanden stopped being useful because it refers to a book that is no longer valid (Codex: Eldar) that was replaced with a different book (Codex: Craftworlds). FE Supplement refers to Codex: Tau Empire, which is what the book is still named. Still will work without GW saying it can't.
And that could have been fixed with a one line FAQ.
You're not expecting consistency and common sense from Gw, are you?
You do realize that supports my position in that we don't know what the fate of the Farsight Enclaves supplement will be once the new codex drops. It will either stay like the Sentinels of Terra supplement or it won't like the Iyanden supplement. Just because some see the Farsight Enclaves supplement working perfectly fine as is with the new codex doesn't mean that it won't be pulled.
I think the widespread acceptance/disallowing of a supplement also partially comes from what it adds to the army and how those additions work with a new codex.
The SM codices basically just replace the Artifacts lists and Warlord Traits if I understand correctly. Slightly different Chapter Tactics that are pretty similar to their "parent" CTs. Nothing that interacts brokenly with rewritten units as I understand it.
The Iyanden supplement has a lot of things that were replaced or just make obsolete with the new Codex. Voice of Twilight (give your Wraith units Battle Focus) is replaced with the new Wraith formation. The Wraithknight bonuses also would be pretty broken with the new GC rules, as there is a piece of Wargear that let you heal a WK on a 3+, and another that lets you make a Wraithknight your Warlord. Those would be flat out broken given the state of WKs.
What does Farsight give aside from the ability to make Crisis Suits Troops and the different Warlord Traits/Relics? Anything that would be broken with the new unit inclusions?
I think the widespread acceptance/disallowing of a supplement also partially comes from what it adds to the army and how those additions work with a new codex.
The SM codices basically just replace the Artifacts lists and Warlord Traits if I understand correctly. Slightly different Chapter Tactics that are pretty similar to their "parent" CTs. Nothing that interacts brokenly with rewritten units as I understand it.
The Iyanden supplement has a lot of things that were replaced or just make obsolete with the new Codex. Voice of Twilight (give your Wraith units Battle Focus) is replaced with the new Wraith formation. The Wraithknight bonuses also would be pretty broken with the new GC rules, as there is a piece of Wargear that let you heal a WK on a 3+, and another that lets you make a Wraithknight your Warlord. Those would be flat out broken given the state of WKs.
What does Farsight give aside from the ability to make Crisis Suits Troops and the different Warlord Traits/Relics? Anything that would be broken with the new unit inclusions?
Just some new character data slates which are all based off of either crisis suits, the riptide, or the XV-88. Otherwise not a damned thing beyond Crisis Suit as a troop choice. No new unit types, just an optional version of the Farsight Bodyguard (which apparently will still exist) I really would be beyond shocked if somehow the FS book became unusable. Especially with the whole "the 6ed book still works for existing models" bit, since every one of the FS unit stat lines is in that book. Only reason to do it would be to discontinue Commander Farsight in general and his melee version of the Tau.
derling wrote: ...the other oft-criticized aesthetic is the exposed cockpit, which I think is kind of cool, but most people do not like.
Given that none of the other suits are open topped and that the "head" can't see the ground in front of the crew compartment anyway makes it pretty darn silly to have it that way.
derling wrote: ...the other oft-criticized aesthetic is the exposed cockpit, which I think is kind of cool, but most people do not like.
Given that none of the other suits are open topped and that the "head" can't see the ground in front of the crew compartment anyway makes it pretty darn silly to have it that way.
So any thoughts from folks yet what they are going to use to enclose that cockpit? Some folks already have it, wondering if any loose bits/parts from other models fit the bill nicely, or if anyone has found a nice see-through plastic cockpit cover in any other game models.
derling wrote: ...the other oft-criticized aesthetic is the exposed cockpit, which I think is kind of cool, but most people do not like.
Given that none of the other suits are open topped and that the "head" can't see the ground in front of the crew compartment anyway makes it pretty darn silly to have it that way.
So any thoughts from folks yet what they are going to use to enclose that cockpit? Some folks already have it, wondering if any loose bits/parts from other models fit the bill nicely, or if anyone has found a nice see-through plastic cockpit cover in any other game models.
I was thinking the arc part of the Tau Vehicle Command upgrade could fit as a lid if some cutting was done
It would take a bit more than a single piece to cover the Stormsurge cockpit because the middle pilot's head sticks up slightly. You would basically have to block line of sight of the main head in order to cover the cockpit up.
Then again if youre intent is to completely mask it then thats a different story, as you can just leave the pilots out.
Vineheart01 wrote: It would take a bit more than a single piece to cover the Stormsurge cockpit because the middle pilot's head sticks up slightly. You would basically have to block line of sight of the main head in order to cover the cockpit up.
Then again if youre intent is to completely mask it then thats a different story, as you can just leave the pilots out.
This may have been thought of elsewhere in this thread, but if you shaved down the pilot so he sits low, you could cut a piece of transparent blue plastic (Like the tidewall shield pieces) and Cover the hatch in a way that looks lkie a forcefield?
Vineheart01 wrote: It would take a bit more than a single piece to cover the Stormsurge cockpit because the middle pilot's head sticks up slightly. You would basically have to block line of sight of the main head in order to cover the cockpit up.
Then again if youre intent is to completely mask it then thats a different story, as you can just leave the pilots out.
Why would that make a difference? If you're converting it because you don't like the ridiculous open topped robot walker, you're not going to model/paint the interior cockpit in all likelihood unless you're doing a KV-911 Cabriolet Suit.
Is it too late to speculate rampantly about the new codex? Hope I didn't miss my time slot.
FWIW, I think GW may absorb FE into the new codex, but that's just based on them doing so with Iyanden. Hopefully they don't (or if they do, you can still make crisis suits troops somehow). That's really all I want.
If I'm leaving that cockpit open, you better believe I'm throwing some tiny car side view mirrors and some fuzzy dice or rabbit feet on the dash. Maybe a felt interior.
GreyDragoon wrote: If I'm leaving that cockpit open, you better believe I'm throwing some tiny car side view mirrors and some fuzzy dice or rabbit feet on the dash. Maybe a felt interior.
Just saying.
Pics when you're done please!
So what does the auxiliary formation do for Vespid? I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but I'm pretty sure everyone wants hints on their beloved allies of the Tau Empire.
luke1705 wrote: Is it too late to speculate rampantly about the new codex? Hope I didn't miss my time slot.
FWIW, I think GW may absorb FE into the new codex, but that's just based on them doing so with Iyanden. Hopefully they don't (or if they do, you can still make crisis suits troops somehow). That's really all I want.
Oh, and USEABLE RAILSIDES. GW PLEASE
If we take what we know so far about the codex, they are just reprinting the current & adding the new stuff into it (what will be in the campaign book). There was no mention either way what will happen to FE.
It would be nice, considering they are just reprinting the current, for them to add FE as a "bonus." IMHO
Vineheart01 wrote: It would take a bit more than a single piece to cover the Stormsurge cockpit because the middle pilot's head sticks up slightly. You would basically have to block line of sight of the main head in order to cover the cockpit up.
Then again if youre intent is to completely mask it then thats a different story, as you can just leave the pilots out.
This may have been thought of elsewhere in this thread, but if you shaved down the pilot so he sits low, you could cut a piece of transparent blue plastic (Like the tidewall shield pieces) and Cover the hatch in a way that looks lkie a forcefield?
This would be pretty cool looking. That way the guys in the cockpit are still visible so you don't lose the detail inside, but it makes the idea that this thing is well armored more believable.
Vineheart01 wrote: It would take a bit more than a single piece to cover the Stormsurge cockpit because the middle pilot's head sticks up slightly. You would basically have to block line of sight of the main head in order to cover the cockpit up.
Then again if youre intent is to completely mask it then thats a different story, as you can just leave the pilots out.
This may have been thought of elsewhere in this thread, but if you shaved down the pilot so he sits low, you could cut a piece of transparent blue plastic (Like the tidewall shield pieces) and Cover the hatch in a way that looks lkie a forcefield?
Or if you could just get a curved piece of clear/blue clear plastic to make like a cockpit/bubbled/forcefield type thing would be pretty cool imo.
The fact they release a new Crisis Suit box should HOPEFULLY suggest there will be a relevant way to field them, if not with release but in the near future?
Fingers crossed (and stamped on, broken, lifeless, quietly sobbing into the dust of my forgotten dreams...)
Razerous wrote: The fact they release a new Crisis Suit box should HOPEFULLY suggest there will be a relevant way to field them, if not with release but in the near future?
Fingers crossed (and stamped on, broken, lifeless, quietly sobbing into the dust of my forgotten dreams...)
You mean like fielding them in the Elites slot, as designed? Then again, Skyhammer came out l sell Devastators and Assault Marines, so there might be some sort of Hurry Up And Click bundle for Crisis Suits that comes packed with some OP rules.
Got my WD and Tidewall today. The Tidewall looks great. One thing I wanted to point out: the artwork on the Codex is identical to the artwork on 6e codex, with just the new style of banner and lettering at the bottom.
Talys wrote: Got my WD and Tidewall today. The Tidewall looks great. One thing I wanted to point out: the artwork on the Codex is identical to the artwork on 6e codex, with just the new style of banner and lettering at the bottom.
From what I've gathered, if you already own the codex, you don't need to buy the new one, they included everything new in the white dwarves and there is no update to the earlier units if that's what you mean by Tau 2.0. So basically, save $50 and buy the white dwarf if you own the book already. ( I don't own the white dwarf or either book, just reading up on the releases)
Defeatmyarmy wrote: From what I've gathered, if you already own the codex, you don't need to buy the new one, they included everything new in the white dwarves and there is no update to the earlier units if that's what you mean by Tau 2.0. So basically, save $50 and buy the white dwarf if you own the book already. ( I don't own the white dwarf or either book, just reading up on the releases)
Not true. The White Dwarf issues won't cut it. What has been said is you can use the old codex with the Kauyon campaign book:
Note that the campaign book is about $25 more expensive than the new codex when you make your decision.
Im not normally one for paying out the ass for fluff. But im tempted to buy the campaign since its not much more than the codex and supposedly has all the changes in it. Course i'd definitely be making up a custom datasheet for references and such.
Flipside, still paying out the rear for fluff....
I am of two minds about how GW are releasing the new Tau material.
On the one hand, I like this new style of releasing updates via campaign books. It's a lot simpler than a new codex, furthers the lore, and could be used to provide updates to armies that are in need of the new 7.5 edition formations (Dark Eldar, Orks, Space Wolves, Blood Angels).
On the other hand, Tau needed a lot more than new units and some formations. Rules, points costs, and wargear need to be rebalanced or redesigned. Even if there are in fact major changes to how Tau work in the new campaign book and codex, it would invalidate the entire strategy of updating armies via campaign books.
I'm going to withhold my judgement until we get more leaks from the campaign book and updated codex as to whether GW has executed this well.
TheNewBlood wrote: I am of two minds about how GW are releasing the new Tau material.
On the one hand, I like this new style of releasing updates via campaign books. It's a lot simpler than a new codex, furthers the lore, and could be used to provide updates to armies that are in need of the new 7.5 edition formations (Dark Eldar, Orks, Space Wolves, Blood Angels).
On the other hand, Tau needed a lot more than new units and some formations. Rules, points costs, and wargear need to be rebalanced or redesigned. Even if there are in fact major changes to how Tau work in the new campaign book and codex, it would invalidate the entire strategy of updating armies via campaign books.
I'm going to withhold my judgement until we get more leaks from the campaign book and updated codex as to whether GW has executed this well.
100% agree. This is, unfortunately, a pretty half-assed release and Tau needed more than that. A lot of points values needed to be adjusted (Ion Accelerator probably should cost about ten times what it does now...). However, if executed well, the same paradigm could be applied to several different codexes. Unfortunately, Ork, Space Wolves, and Blood Angels have all had campaign books in the past 18 months. I doubt we will be seeing more from them again.
Its one of those balance requirements GW is not known for doing because it means making old models viable again. Vespid are the only ones that could be revamped and also given a better model, and GW are not known for buffing models that arent either selling terribly or has a fancy new model (heck look at Broadsides. Everyone had railsides but they made Railsides terrible while making the new missilesides sexy as hell looking so everyone bought them up)
Im still kinda shocked theyre releasing new crisis suits without completely revamping the unit (well, that we know of anyway). Thats why its always a vain hope of mine that they'd buff stealthsuits so the difference between them and Crisis suits is the tradeoff of less toughness/support options for stealth + shroud, rather than lack of weapons. The current stealth suit model is pretty cool looking (both XV15 and 25) so theres no reason to update it. No update, why buff it? GW mentality. Gotta hate it.
Once we see these formation changes (pre-orders should likely come up on the site for the new codex on Saturday, last new item day of the month for GW) we'll really know the meat of what has changed here. Since the core units are the same (except for FW teams) we're really looking at what the new ones give us, what the new wargear is, and what these formations allow us to do.
Agreed, I do wish in my heart of hearts that they had fixed some of the non-working units. And with any luck at all that might happen over time. But this is GW we're talking about. My expectations after 23 years are.. well low doesn't really do it justice. As long as we don't get gimped horribly with some complete reworking of how we play fundamentally as seems to always happen when they do a core-reworking, well hell I'm happy with small buffs and new toys. Tau "works" atm, and with a little more functionality and some spreading out of our force base to some new units it could, feasibly, return to top tier spot it held onto in 6th ed.
BTW, there's nothing keeping Tau from performing VERY well in competitive play. They have a few, and only a few, really great enemy lineups that are simply too resilient for the variant TAC Tau lists. Sadly, those few great lineups are pretty prevalent in the new meta as they tend to do great against a wide variety of lists, and tailoring for them hurts our TAC side of things pretty horribly. If (and it's still an IF) any of our new formations or units/gear can start making a dent in this OR help shift the meta away from them, well that's just fine by me. Better that then GW doing a complete re-working and a 50/50 chance at real irrelevance.
Oh and please don't take me to be OK with the pricing. The pricing just continues to be out of control. But as far as I see it if the current idea of this being an incremental addition is true, we at WORST got some new toys and they didn't break anything we already enjoyed using. I'll take a small win over a potential huge loss any day of the week.
Quite frankly i could care less about competitive play. I just want all the units to actually have a use.
Stealthsuits cost ~300pts or more when fully upgraded and dish out nowhere near the damage crisis suits can. Stealth + shroud isnt worth THAT much to me especially when theyre almost always in charge range and theres plenty of ignores cover out there. I dont care if they get buffed to outstanding, i just want them to be balanced enough so i can not feel heavily gimped using them.
The fighter is all around bad and the bomber is actually better at the fighter's job. But its so expensive for a squishy plane that can be done by an ionhead much more reliably/safely. Again, i just want them to be good enough to not shaft myself bringing them. Sub-optimal is not the same as screwed-over.
Vespid are the only unit i feel needs a total and complete rework. The high init, jump, and hit and run makes them out to be melee units. But theyre weak, no ap in melee, and still have gak WS. Their gun is obviously designed to kill marines, but the range and rate of fire on top of the cost makes them the WORST unit at killing marines - even our Firewarriors kill marines better point-for-point. I say remove their AP3 gun and just make it a basic gun so they arent wasting a phase, while giving them real melee power to actually abuse that high init and hit and run capability. Their cost isnt the problem this time tbh, its their mixed viability and being terrible at both.
Heck, im probably the only tau player that DOESNT complain about the devilfish. I use both my transports most games and they never disappoint me because im aiming to have fun not utterly crush my opponent. Same goes for my Stormsurge. I like its rules. Its not insanely powerful and neither do i care if it is, its strong enough to justify using in more than a joke list.
/rant
anyway....the kind of balance i want is something GW will never do. The ork codex upon release was the closest one ive seen minus the no invul bs. Later codex releases made them just as bad as they were before, only now im spamming warbikers instead of nobbikers if i want to live longer than 3 turns.
I feel your pain Vineheart. I just.. well I keep my expectations realistic with GW. I'm just happy if they do less harm than they do good in any release.
Speaking of the Stormsurge, I'm really not sure this thing is as weak as people make it out to be. Slap a 4++ on this thing via wargear and suddenly a 2 man squad of them looks like something you could potentially make work nicely. You could of course squat one or two in the back field and have an uber artillery piece, but I think that's a waste of them. If they can just be made to survive in the mid field in any way, the pulse blaster profile along with all of the other weaponry it sports can make a huge T1/T2 difference in the course of a match.
Only reason people think its terrible is because its ~150pts less than a Ta'unar when kitted out, which is the vastly superior pick by far. Oh, and its Str D is point-blank...never mind the dual S10 pi plates of death at table range lol nah thats totally not important nope not at all *cough*
Also the Ta'unar more than twice the price lol. I intend to get one with my tax returns, but more because i just LOVE that model than i think its an op game-stomper. Never intend to field it sub-4k games lol. Except against a certain eldar player.....
I admit, on paper i feel the Stormsurge is a bit overpriced but not by much. The fact it isnt T7 at LEAST is a bit of a shock to me, both because of the price and GMC rules. But until i get a game with it i wont know if its priced fairly or not.
Remember, even though the Eldar are obscenely overpowered right now people still compare everything to them. Its not a wraithknight or wraithknight killer, so it sucks.
Vineheart01 wrote: Only reason people think its terrible is because its ~150pts less than a Ta'unar when kitted out, which is the vastly superior pick by far. Oh, and its Str D is point-blank...never mind the dual S10 pi plates of death at table range lol nah thats totally not important nope not at all *cough*
Also the Ta'unar more than twice the price lol. I intend to get one with my tax returns, but more because i just LOVE that model than i think its an op game-stomper. Never intend to field it sub-4k games lol. Except against a certain eldar player.....
I admit, on paper i feel the Stormsurge is a bit overpriced but not by much. The fact it isnt T7 at LEAST is a bit of a shock to me, both because of the price and GMC rules. But until i get a game with it i wont know if its priced fairly or not.
Remember, even though the Eldar are obscenely overpowered right now people still compare everything to them. Its not a wraithknight or wraithknight killer, so it sucks.
As an Eldar player, I fully support your endeavor to put an Eldar cheesemonger in his place.
I really don't understand why people want Tau to be on the same obscene level of power as the current Eldar codex. Do they want a handful of absurdly OP units that invalidate both whole armies and the entire rest of the codex? Are people claiming this sarcastically so they can justify their hate against Tau as a faction? I just don't know anymore.
The solution to power creep is not more power creep. It's to cut down and raise up the outliers until everything fits the balance curve.
H.B.M.C. wrote: So this new Tau Codex really is just a 2.0 of the old one, and not a new Codex?
I don't think anyone can answer that til we see the new codex. But the *cover* is almost identical (same artwork, but lettering stylistically matches 7e codex look), and the new pages are all pretty much accounted for in terms of new units, the new formation force org, and the new formations (I think 9?). The big question is, "did anything else change?"... who knows. In White Dwarf could not really be any more ambiguous:
"The latest edition of Codex: Tau Empire compiles and updates the history and rules found in the previous (April 2013) edition of Codex: Tau Empire, and adds a wealth of new material. A shelf-busting 128 pages long, it presents all the exiting entries as datasheets and adds the most recent releases such as the Ghostkeel and Stormsurge. The updated Codex also includes new content in the form of a new Tau Detachment (the Hunter COntingent), Tactical Objectives, and 9 new Formations (including devastating additions such as the Retaliation Cadre and Armoured Interdiction Cadre).
The New rules found in this edtion of Codex: Tau Empire are also contained in War Zone Domocles: Kauyon. Tau collectors who want all the rules in one place (along with buckets of new art, background and unform [sic] guides) will find this updated Codex a godsend. If you do own the previous edition, though, using it alongside the new Kauyon book will also provide you with everything you need, so the choice of how you get your hands on all the new Tau rules really is yours."
If it were any company other than GW, I'd say, new codex is old codex + some new pages and new art, plus maybe a bit of fluff (history). But heck, this is GW, and "compiles and updates the history and rules" could mean a couple of tiny words -- or clarifications -- that turns the world upside down for faction players. Or even point changes. Who knows.
Among other things, on the side bar, it says, "The rules from the previous Codex are brought up to date with datasheets for every unit as well as formations and the new Hunter Contingent Detachment." So are the datasheets just like, the same old information, are they, uh, updated? And anyways, SOME of the units will need to be updated, if only because they got new models, with more options, right?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, teaser for the next issue:
NEXT ISSUE: AID FROM AZYR, STARBORNE SLAUGHTER, THE TIDEWALL RISES...
#1 is obviously something AoS.
#3 is probably GW selling Tidewall pieces separately -- I think so because they have reportedly offered some stores pieces of tidewall from the separately packaged boxes.
Should we have a separate thread for Kauyon for me to clamber for Marine Formation leaks for Kauyon, or should I post here when it gets put up for preorder next week/Saturday?
Crazyterran wrote: Should we have a separate thread for Kauyon for me to clamber for Marine Formation leaks for Kauyon, or should I post here when it gets put up for preorder next week/Saturday?
Aren't the Marine Formations in the Shadow Force Solaq boxed set as well? If that is not the case, RAMPAGE!
Crazyterran wrote: Should we have a separate thread for Kauyon for me to clamber for Marine Formation leaks for Kauyon, or should I post here when it gets put up for preorder next week/Saturday?
Aren't the Marine Formations in the Shadow Force Solaq boxed set as well? If that is not the case, RAMPAGE!
Bols said (so, salt, liberal salt) that there was a scout formation with Vanguards, that allowed for accurate deep strike plus charge when in a certain range of the scouts, and a scout version of a Demi company of some sort.
Edit: I'm thinking so wing like Leviathan/Baal, where you had a mix of formations in each book (I believe?). The Solaq one will probably just be Captain Solaq, the Sternguard and Vanguard squad/, the Landspeeder, and the formation.
Wish I had realized that before I bought it, but I guess captain eaglestache can be my fourth captain/counts as sicarius (since I play UM fourth and reserves...)
Crazyterran wrote: Should we have a separate thread for Kauyon for me to clamber for Marine Formation leaks for Kauyon, or should I post here when it gets put up for preorder next week/Saturday?
Aren't the Marine Formations in the Shadow Force Solaq boxed set as well? If that is not the case, RAMPAGE!
Bols said (so, salt, liberal salt) that there was a scout formation with Vanguards, that allowed for accurate deep strike plus charge when in a certain range of the scouts, and a scout version of a Demi company of some sort.
German scans of said formations exist. They are actually pretty rad, but I have no room for the formation as of right now. I am curious if Kauyon will have a whole different set of formations. I am only buying Shadow Force Solaq, so if I miss out on a bunch of stuff...
EDIT:
Shadow Captain Solaq is losing his Power Sword and Plasma Pistol and gaining a Power Maul (technically, a Corvus Hammer since it is impossible to find Power Mauls for right hands) and a Bolt Pistol and becoming my Chapter Champion. Love the eagle facemask.
Based on previous campaigns I'd say the big book will have different stuff to the boxsets. EDIT: For example I doubt the RG objectives will be in Solaq and I doubt the Solaq formations will be in Kauyon
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Based on previous campaigns I'd say the big book will have different stuff to the boxsets.
EDIT: For example I doubt the RG objectives will be in Solaq and I doubt the Solaq formations will be in Kauyon
Probably not. I guess I will just wait for scans to show up eventually. If I ran Tau and Codex: Space Marines, I would think about getting the big book, but otherwise not remotely interested.
EDIT: MOTHER FETHER! The Pinion and Shadowstrike Kill Team are in the Campaign Book, not the boxed set.
I have had some time to think about this codex issue.
I hate it. It doesn't hurt the whole of the army but it feels like we got stiffed on the bill for any hope of updated rules for some of the units that needed it the most. It's a hard push to sell the new gak and forget the old gak.
Zelnik wrote: I have had some time to think about this codex issue.
I hate it. It doesn't hurt the whole of the army but it feels like we got stiffed on the bill for any hope of updated rules for some of the units that needed it the most. It's a hard push to sell the new gak and forget the old gak.
And you were expecting..............................what?
Whoever says the Solaq set contains the same material is very likely wrong as it was not the case with the other campaign releases back in 2014. Stormclaw had rules for the models in it plus a few formations limited to the content of the box. The description of the Solaq set only mentions an army list and missions:
This stunning box set includes twelve plastic Space Marine miniatures - a five-man Sternguard Veteran Squad, a five-man Vanguard veteran Squad, a Land Speeder and a new Space Marine Captain. As well as this, you’ll find the thirty-two page booklet War Zone Damocles: Operation Shadowtalon - the first instalment in the blood-soaked tale of the war for the Dovar System.
This booklet includes The Hunt For Aun’Do, the story of the Tau’s recovery of the Ethereal Aun’Do and Shadow Captain Solaq’s efforts to capture him; the Echoes of War, three missions depicting key conflicts during the hunt, and an awesome Army List featuring everything you need to field the included miniatures in games of Warhammer 40,000.
The Kauyon book has formations for at least Tau and RG, White Scars probably as well.
Zelnik wrote: I have had some time to think about this codex issue.
I hate it. It doesn't hurt the whole of the army but it feels like we got stiffed on the bill for any hope of updated rules for some of the units that needed it the most. It's a hard push to sell the new gak and forget the old gak.
And you were expecting..............................what?
This Is GW.
Well, it is certainly different to what they have usually done in the past.
However, different does not necessarily mean better.
I hope the formations are not restricted to Raven Guard chapter tactics. i would really like an excuse to run Ultramarine Vanguards or (hopefully) a scout core detachment for the Gladius.
Crazyterran wrote: I hope the formations are not restricted to Raven Guard chapter tactics. i would really like an excuse to run Ultramarine Vanguards or (hopefully) a scout core detachment for the Gladius.
Yeah, if these formations can be used as part of the Gladius Strike Force or some variant of it, with any Chapter Tactics, I would run that Shadowstrike Kill Team without a second thought. The Pinion Battle Demi-Company is pretty awesome as well. Loads better than "We want to behave like Ultramarines-lite".
Do we have the full load out requirements for the pinion? I'm assuming three scout squads, assault marine variants, and maybe heavy weapons? I imagine it will be Raven guard themed, even if any chapter can use it, so maybe 2 assault squads instead of heavy weapons.
Crazyterran wrote: Do we have the full load out requirements for the pinion? I'm assuming three scout squads, assault marine variants, and maybe heavy weapons? I imagine it will be Raven guard themed, even if any chapter can use it, so maybe 2 assault squads instead of heavy weapons.
1 Captain or Chaplain (can sub in Pedro Kantor!)
0-1 Command Squad
3 Tactical Squads
1 Assault Squad
1 Devastator Squad
1-3 Scout or Scout Bike Squads
If there's one thing Tau players needed during this Tau-focused release season to turn that luke warm or negative reception of mediocre new Tau units and rules around, it was stronger Space Marines. Thanks for that, GW, good thinking.
Reading that wormy wording, I'm wondering it the "new formations" Tau gets from Kauyon will be different from the ones in the 7E Tau dex. We know that Kauyon will include the base 7E Tau formations, since it can be used to supplement the 6E Tau dex and become equivalent to the 7E dex. And they could even get away with calling those shared formations "new." What we don't know is if Kauyon will include additional Tau material beyond what is in the 7E dex, other than the campaign scenarios themselves. The new RG and WS content will be nice, I'm sure, but doesn't exactly do it for me.
The impression I got was that Kauyon isn't going to include the new Formations and Detachment, just the new units and updated pages for new units (if they exist), and will instead have its own unique Formations.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: The impression I got was that Kauyon isn't going to include the new Formations and Detachment, just the new units and updated pages for new units (if they exist), and will instead have its own unique Formations.
Since Old Dex + Kauyon = New Dex, it stands to reason that Kauyon will, at the very least, carry the formations from the New Dex, as the Old Dex doesn't have them.
Note that the Limited Edition Dex has 36 TacObj cards, while the Tau Data Cards have 42 cards 6 of which are Warlord Traits and 32 of which are TacObjs. So for $180 the limited edition doesn't give you all of the Warlord Traits in card form. I am interested in that poster-sized map of the Tau Empire, though...
Matt.Kingsley wrote: The impression I got was that Kauyon isn't going to include the new Formations and Detachment, just the new units and updated pages for new units (if they exist), and will instead have its own unique Formations.
The impression I get is those are there, but that there will be nothing else other than them. No unit tweaks other than the most minute.
I got a bad feeling about this. After all the dumbness of this update what are the odds all of our formations suck? I need a drink or something. To one of the worst updates ever in how badly communicated and fractured it is.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: The impression I got was that Kauyon isn't going to include the new Formations and Detachment, just the new units and updated pages for new units (if they exist), and will instead have its own unique Formations.
Since Old Dex + Kauyon = New Dex, it stands to reason that Kauyon will, at the very least, carry the formations from the New Dex, as the Old Dex doesn't have them.
Note that the Limited Edition Dex has 36 TacObj cards, while the Tau Data Cards have 42 cards 6 of which are Warlord Traits and 32 of which are TacObjs. So for $180 the limited edition doesn't give you all of the Warlord Traits in card form. I am interested in that poster-sized map of the Tau Empire, though...
The great joke in all of this is that GW is simply reprinting the 6th edition Tau book that people bought the Limited Edition of, as well. 180$ for a damn book + 2$ worth of cards that you can make yourself? Just go to fedex office and get them to print you cards on high quality card stock! A poster? You can have an online printer do the same thing for 5$. It's so absurd that one would spend 180$ on what is basically a quick reprint of a book people already own when you can buy entire armies for other miniature games...yet in 40k you get a single book.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: The impression I got was that Kauyon isn't going to include the new Formations and Detachment, just the new units and updated pages for new units (if they exist), and will instead have its own unique Formations.
The impression I get is those are there, but that there will be nothing else other than them. No unit tweaks other than the most minute.
I got a bad feeling about this. After all the dumbness of this update what are the odds all of our formations suck? I need a drink or something. To one of the worst updates ever in how badly communicated and fractured it is.
Spoiler:
Yes, please go get a drink. It will help you relax.
At the risk of being flamed I will echo what has been said before by others more calm and patient than I am: let's wait until we see the codex before the more hyperbolic of us get our soapboxes out.
Honestly, even if they change nothing other than the detachments, Tau are still a very playable army. Hell, my main army is Orks so count your blessings Tau players And despite the rules, I will continue to have fun with my Orks, and I will continue to have fun with my Tau. I wouldn't be paying the expensive prices if I did not enjoy the models, lore and game so much.
I can't wait to get my hands on the Ghostkeel Although the way the WD description of the Kauyon campaign is worded, I'm worried Shadowsun might bite the dust :(
The great joke in all of this is that GW is simply reprinting the 6th edition Tau book that people bought the Limited Edition of, as well. 180$ for a damn book + 2$ worth of cards that you can make yourself? Just go to fedex office and get them to print you cards on high quality card stock! A poster? You can have an online printer do the same thing for 5$. It's so absurd that one would spend 180$ on what is basically a quick reprint of a book people already own when you can buy entire armies for other miniature games...yet in 40k you get a single book.
Well, you can actually just buy the datacards if you want them.
But you know what the people I know who buy a limited edition do with them? They open it once, then sit it on the shelf. And they buy another copy, along with another set of datacards, which they actually play with. They don't want to ding up the corners of the LE and all that. Oh yeah, you get poster with the cover art on one side, and a map on the other, and 6 metal markers too, if you care They exist for the sole purpose of the people who want them.
Note that this is not me I haven't yet bought an LE book, though I have been tempted by the SM codex, and almost go the Stormcast as a gift for my wife (something else totally unrelated to gaming came up at the same time, so GW lost out).
I can't wait to get my hands on the Ghostkeel Although the way the WD description of the Kauyon campaign is worded, I'm worried Shadowsun might bite the dust :(
Do you mean this? "Commander Shadowsun, the ascendant hero of the Fire Caste matches wits and weapons against Space marine Chapter Masters and the Imperial Knights of House Terryn -- and the battle is an especially fierce one, which will see heroes die before the fighting is over."
Well, judging from the cover and from that book art from a while ago, Shadowsun has this habit of going into melee with Space Marines, and you'd think that the brilliant Tau commander would realise that is bound to end badly sooner or later.
Ashiraya wrote: Well, judging from the cover and from that book art from a while ago, Shadowsun has this habit of going into melee with Space Marines, and you'd think that the brilliant Tau commander would realise that is bound to end badly sooner or later.
Was going to say- a Tau in melee doesn't really end that well lol.
Ashiraya wrote: Well, judging from the cover and from that book art from a while ago, Shadowsun has this habit of going into melee with Space Marines, and you'd think that the brilliant Tau commander would realise that is bound to end badly sooner or later.
Well Farsight has gone so far as to weld a sword onto his crisis suit, and that hasn't turned out poorly for him....yet...
Matt.Kingsley wrote: The impression I got was that Kauyon isn't going to include the new Formations and Detachment, just the new units and updated pages for new units (if they exist), and will instead have its own unique Formations.
I honestly don't know what it's going to include.
I know how the GWWD information SAYS it will operate with the 6th edition codex. (this leads people to speculate as to how the rules must be broken out into Old and New.)
I just don't trust GW's writing skills, in rule form or WD Marketing text, enough to accurately discern that the RAW intent of their words mean when saying that the Tau player will have everything he needs to use the old codex with the rule contents of Kayoun.
We already know it will make SOME changes to currently existing Unit entries (The Command er and FireWarrior Strike Teams are the only entires we've seen and they both include SOME type of change), so the notion that the entries between old and new are already technically incorrect. They could provide the errata in Kayoun in some other fashion (Errata pages, BOx outs, etc) but that can alter the rule system as well.
I reserve judgement to that point when I have both book in my hands.
Ashiraya wrote: Well, judging from the cover and from that book art from a while ago, Shadowsun has this habit of going into melee with Space Marines, and you'd think that the brilliant Tau commander would realise that is bound to end badly sooner or later.
We can all hope that it ends with her skull cast in silver and looking down the road to the White Scars Fortress Monastary.
Edit: they may even set it up so Aun'va sets her up for the fall, since they have a falling out at the end of the assault on Voltoris. I could see him replacing her with someone easier to control and less hot headed.
What book is the lore with Shadowsun's most recent attack in? I keep hearing how she attacked and got beaten pretty bad and stuff about Aun'va but I can't find any plot summaries anywhere.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, are the new Fire Warrior Strikers the same exact sculpt as the old ones? I have 40 or so og FW's and would like to just buy the drone turret through eBay or something but if it's an up to date mould for them that's fixed things like the messed up left leg plate I may buy new ones!
Noctem wrote: What book is the lore with Shadowsun's most recent attack in? I keep hearing how she attacked and got beaten pretty bad and stuff about Aun'va but I can't find any plot summaries anywhere.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, are the new Fire Warrior Strikers the same exact sculpt as the old ones? I have 40 or so og FW's and would like to just buy the drone turret through eBay or something but if it's an up to date mould for them that's fixed things like the messed up left leg plate I may buy new ones!
She gets beat down by khan, shrike, and tybalt on the House Terryn home world in the Warzone Damocles Anthology, don't remember which one.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: The impression I got was that Kauyon isn't going to include the new Formations and Detachment, just the new units and updated pages for new units (if they exist), and will instead have its own unique Formations.
I honestly don't know what it's going to include.
I know how the GWWD information SAYS it will operate with the 6th edition codex. (this leads people to speculate as to how the rules must be broken out into Old and New.)
I just don't trust GW's writing skills, in rule form or WD Marketing text, enough to accurately discern that the RAW intent of their words mean when saying that the Tau player will have everything he needs to use the old codex with the rule contents of Kayoun.
We already know it will make SOME changes to currently existing Unit entries (The Command er and FireWarrior Strike Teams are the only entires we've seen and they both include SOME type of change), so the notion that the entries between old and new are already technically incorrect. They could provide the errata in Kayoun in some other fashion (Errata pages, BOx outs, etc) but that can alter the rule system as well.
I reserve judgement to that point when I have both book in my hands.
Well put. The assumption that NOTHING CHANGES is baseless at this point. New codex is almost always a minor update to units and rules, with some exceptions. This just seems to be like GW is trying not piss off the people who bought the LE Tau codex in 6e by making invalid after only two years. If I had bought that LE codex, I sure wouldn't want to buy a new dex now. Still don't want to replace my 6e dex already, and might get the campaign book, but I will wait for reviews to see how well it does the job of replacing the Tau dex.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: The impression I got was that Kauyon isn't going to include the new Formations and Detachment, just the new units and updated pages for new units (if they exist), and will instead have its own unique Formations.
I honestly don't know what it's going to include.
I know how the GWWD information SAYS it will operate with the 6th edition codex. (this leads people to speculate as to how the rules must be broken out into Old and New.)
I just don't trust GW's writing skills, in rule form or WD Marketing text, enough to accurately discern that the RAW intent of their words mean when saying that the Tau player will have everything he needs to use the old codex with the rule contents of Kayoun.
We already know it will make SOME changes to currently existing Unit entries (The Command er and FireWarrior Strike Teams are the only entires we've seen and they both include SOME type of change), so the notion that the entries between old and new are already technically incorrect. They could provide the errata in Kayoun in some other fashion (Errata pages, BOx outs, etc) but that can alter the rule system as well.
I reserve judgement to that point when I have both book in my hands.
Well put. The assumption that NOTHING CHANGES is baseless at this point. New codex is almost always a minor update to units and rules, with some exceptions. This just seems to be like GW is trying not piss off the people who bought the LE Tau codex in 6e by making invalid after only two years. If I had bought that LE codex, I sure wouldn't want to buy a new dex now. Still don't want to replace my 6e dex already, and might get the campaign book, but I will wait for reviews to see how well it does the job of replacing the Tau dex.
That doesn't make much sense either.. Eldar got a new LE book, SM got a new LE book in 6th and 7th, among others. There is nothing GW does that starts off with the statement of "Lets try not to piss our customers off"
They're not double posts. It's a brief hiccup on the site and Legoburner has set the forum up so that it will fix itself after a few minutes.
Thanks for the tip!
What I meant to say (before I edited) was that the reason things are quiet in this thread is because no new information has been revealed. All that going on is people pontificating and punditing about how OP/terrible the new Tau are.
GreyDragoon wrote: This thread likely won't have anything new until Saturday. So let's all cool it and we'll find out then just how good/bad/different things are.
And if anyone is interested in the White Scars/Raven Guard datacards I'm in the process of translating them over in the appropriate thread.
wyomingfox wrote: Just noticed that the Tau Barracuda has been removed from the Forge World Website.
Doesn't necessarily mean anything. Could just be that they're pulling it while retooling the moulds.
I certainly hope so, I don't want the GW rules team to get their greasy mitts on them, especially when they are at this perfect power level right now (powerful, but fairly priced).
GW " Check out these awesome new suits we have with incredible cover saves and this new wall with great cover saves"
Released right next to a space marine formation that...wait for it.....Ignores cover heheh.
The Tau codex goes to pre order this sat right?
Yeah someone really wanted to mess up the Tau badly.
Yeah...
Because 1-3 units of Tactical Marines or Scout Squads or an Assault Squad or a Devastator Squad gaining "Ignores Cover" by standing 9" from a Scout Squad that has not fired its weapons that turn is going to absolutely invalidate the Tidewall.
The Baracuda was up the other day and it doesn't appear to have went to the "sold out" like the broadsides have so I imagine like Kan said it will be getting its mould retooled
GW " Check out these awesome new suits we have with incredible cover saves and this new wall with great cover saves"
Released right next to a space marine formation that...wait for it.....Ignores cover heheh.
The Tau codex goes to pre order this sat right?
Yeah someone really wanted to mess up the Tau badly.
Yeah...
Because 1-3 units of Tactical Marines or Scout Squads or an Assault Squad or a Devastator Squad gaining "Ignores Cover" by standing 9" from a Scout Squad that has not fired its weapons that turn is going to absolutely invalidate the Tidewall.
Don't let logic get in the way of delicious tears, Kan.
Thats like my necron friend saying he doesnt care about my 2+ cover on my ghostkeels because he has .. forget the name lol... a long range squad that just ignores cover. Doesnt pen my armor though and i still get 4 wounds each.
So you make my 2+ into a 3+. Big deal lol its still a hefty threat to you.
GW " Check out these awesome new suits we have with incredible cover saves and this new wall with great cover saves"
Released right next to a space marine formation that...wait for it.....Ignores cover heheh.
The Tau codex goes to pre order this sat right?
Yeah someone really wanted to mess up the Tau badly.
Yeah...
Because 1-3 units of Tactical Marines or Scout Squads or an Assault Squad or a Devastator Squad gaining "Ignores Cover" by standing 9" from a Scout Squad that has not fired its weapons that turn is going to absolutely invalidate the Tidewall.
Too bad I can't get that ability on some Sternguard. Mowing down Black Knights with Vengeance rounds would make my RW-playing brother so furious.
wyomingfox wrote: Just noticed that the Tau Barracuda has been removed from the Forge World Website.
apparently it's gone, gone, not just having the mould fixed up
Adeptus Astartes
via a reader on Faeit 212
Tau Barracuda has gone OOP
With regards to the reasons we stop producing a miniature the mould cdeteriation is a factor that is taken into consideration but we tend to see a product discontinued based on sales, the Barracuda whilst a stunning kit did not sell well at all and thus we made the hard decision to remove the line from sale.
As part of our process we often destroy the moulds after a line has been discontinued and a length of time passes for the sake of customer related issues (miscasts etc...) I regret to inform you we no longer have any stock or moulds in order to produce these miniatures any more.
-Aaron
although anything that said by a customer service bod is never the most reliable
wyomingfox wrote: Just noticed that the Tau Barracuda has been removed from the Forge World Website.
apparently it's gone, gone, not just having the mould fixed up
Adeptus Astartes
via a reader on Faeit 212
Tau Barracuda has gone OOP
With regards to the reasons we stop producing a miniature the mould cdeteriation is a factor that is taken into consideration but we tend to see a product discontinued based on sales, the Barracuda whilst a stunning kit did not sell well at all and thus we made the hard decision to remove the line from sale.
As part of our process we often destroy the moulds after a line has been discontinued and a length of time passes for the sake of customer related issues (miscasts etc...) I regret to inform you we no longer have any stock or moulds in order to produce these miniatures any more.
-Aaron
although anything that said by a customer service bod is never the most reliable
Is that unfounded?
I mean somebody else could email FW or call them when they open tomorrow so it seems a bit daft for somebody to lie.
Things disappear from the FW site often. Usually when they are re-tooling the molds. I don't take anything from faet212 as gospel personally. The post about Faet212 above is essentially: I hear from a guy who heard from a guy who TOTALLY got an email.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So much for Burning Dawn's Ethereal being exclusive to that box like the ad said...
Bright side: I might be able to get loads more of Shadow Captain Solaq. Complete Honour Guard here we come!
I wouldn't read too much into that, personally.
The Web Exclusive Space Marine Captains came in blisters. Where are they for sale?
Interesting point. Except that those dudes weren't in a boxed set. The blister was how you received them. The Ethereal is in the boxed set. It would be kinda dumb for him/her to be packed in a blister pack in the box. Then again...GW.
I really hope they do end up releasing all of these special characters separately some day. Why have molds you will never use when you can be making $30+ a pop on a model? I know I want the Terminator Captain from SFU.
GW: the codex Tau flyers aren't selling.
Customers: that's because their rules suck and the Barracuda is the only one worth buying.
GW: FW, stop selling the Barracuda.
GW: And destroy the molds just to be sure!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
maceria wrote: Things disappear from the FW site often. Usually when they are re-tooling the molds.
Actually mold repair is much less common than stuff simply going OOP. A lot of the Tau stuff they used to make has disappeared because of low sales, so it's not exactly surprising that the Barracuda might as well.
But hey, at least it's a kit the recasters sell, and now you don't have to feel guilty for buying one and saving a bunch of money.
GW: the codex Tau flyers aren't selling.
Customers: that's because their rules suck and the Barracuda is the only one worth buying.
GW: FW, stop selling the Barracuda.
GW: And destroy the molds just to be sure!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
maceria wrote: Things disappear from the FW site often. Usually when they are re-tooling the molds.
Actually mold repair is much less common than stuff simply going OOP. A lot of the Tau stuff they used to make has disappeared because of low sales, so it's not exactly surprising that the Barracuda might as well.
But hey, at least it's a kit the recasters sell, and now you don't have to feel guilty for buying one and saving a bunch of money.
It seems like a terrible time to stop producing it though. "Hey, Tau are getting a bunch of new models, new rules, and updates to old kits! Now is a great time to start Tau! And hey, FW also sells some great Tau kits like the Kroot... Nevermind. Or the Barra-... Right... There's the Taunar! It's new!"
If they were worried about low sales, now would be the time to make a big deal of them, not stop selling them.
GW: the codex Tau flyers aren't selling.
Customers: that's because their rules suck and the Barracuda is the only one worth buying.
GW: FW, stop selling the Barracuda.
GW: And destroy the molds just to be sure!
Or... you know.. the big stompy robots in the japanese mecha themed army sell much better than awkward conventional vehicles do. That of course doesn't jive with the opinion of the very vocal minority of forum superfans who bemoan the former and keep asking for the poor-selling latter.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So much for Burning Dawn's Ethereal being exclusive to that box like the ad said...
Bright side: I might be able to get loads more of Shadow Captain Solaq. Complete Honour Guard here we come!
I wouldn't read too much into that, personally.
The Web Exclusive Space Marine Captains came in blisters. Where are they for sale?
Interesting point. Except that those dudes weren't in a boxed set. The blister was how you received them. The Ethereal is in the boxed set. It would be kinda dumb for him/her to be packed in a blister pack in the box. Then again...GW.
I really hope they do end up releasing all of these special characters separately some day. Why have molds you will never use when you can be making $30+ a pop on a model? I know I want the Terminator Captain from SFU.
I understand that, but my point was that these "boxed sets" are normally done in such a way that it is basically just the sprues and instructions.
That just looks like the instructions that a blister pack would get.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So much for Burning Dawn's Ethereal being exclusive to that box like the ad said...
Bright side: I might be able to get loads more of Shadow Captain Solaq. Complete Honour Guard here we come!
I wouldn't read too much into that, personally.
The Web Exclusive Space Marine Captains came in blisters. Where are they for sale?
Interesting point. Except that those dudes weren't in a boxed set. The blister was how you received them. The Ethereal is in the boxed set. It would be kinda dumb for him/her to be packed in a blister pack in the box. Then again...GW.
I really hope they do end up releasing all of these special characters separately some day. Why have molds you will never use when you can be making $30+ a pop on a model? I know I want the Terminator Captain from SFU.
I understand that, but my point was that these "boxed sets" are normally done in such a way that it is basically just the sprues and instructions.
That just looks like the instructions that a blister pack would get.
That really has not been how they have done the instructions in the past, though. Stormclaw had one big booklet. Deathstorm had the normal instructions and a smaller booklet for the exclusives. Then again, this exclusive is different in that there is one, not two.
The blister sized sprues and blister retail display fronts aren't really a great indicator of whether something goes blister or not.
As an example, there was a BA kit that included a stormraven, assault terminators and the librarian. The librarian had a card, and obviously you can buy him separately. But the Assassins box had the 4 assassins, separately, with no retail fronts, but we know those are coming soon separately.
GW: the codex Tau flyers aren't selling.
Customers: that's because their rules suck and the Barracuda is the only one worth buying.
GW: FW, stop selling the Barracuda.
GW: And destroy the molds just to be sure!
Or... you know.. the big stompy robots in the japanese mecha themed army sell much better than awkward conventional vehicles do. That of course doesn't jive with the opinion of the very vocal minority of forum superfans who bemoan the former and keep asking for the poor-selling latter.
It's possible for both to be produced and sold you know. The barracuda is a good model, with good rules, and there is no reason to stop producing it. Heck, if it's really not selling enough to warrant warehouse space, just increase the price and turn it to made-to-order. They'd probebly end up making more money that way, and not have to deal with as many complaints. Having both big stompy robots and cool aircraft in the same army is possible.
It's possible for both to be produced and sold you know. The barracuda is a good model, with good rules, and there is no reason to stop producing it. Heck, if it's really not selling enough to warrant warehouse space, just increase the price and turn it to made-to-order. They'd probebly end up making more money that way, and not have to deal with as many complaints. Having both big stompy robots and cool aircraft in the same army is possible.
Maybe it didn't sell as much as they wanted because it was too expensive? I find Barracuda one of the coolest models in the entire game, but it's price tag was unjustifiable.
Ultra-niche? Hardly. It's a great model (especially when compared to the codex flyers), has strong (but fair) rules, and is an asset to any tau army. It's pretty much the go-to tau flier.
I'm not big on Forge World models, simply because it's kind-of-sort-of its own company and some people might not even know about it when it comes to more casual play. Though after looking up the Barracuda model it's pretty nice and I'd play it if I could.
Also, when it comes to the whole mech thing, I really like how SC2 did it with Terran, where a good mech army involves mecha suits, air support, ground tanks, and even some bulkier foot sloggers (Marauders specific, which are probably the size of Tau Stealth Suits).
Co'tor Shas wrote: Ultra-niche? Hardly. It's a great model (especially when compared to the codex flyers), has strong (but fair) rules, and is an asset to any tau army. It's pretty much the go-to tau flier.
There isn't a lot of flyer love these days, though, and most people won't blow the big bucks on a FW model unless it's truly outstanding (like a thunderhawk) or really special for rules.
It's nit hard to imagine that this isn't a popular model .. After all, how many have you seen IRL?
Quite frankly i wonder if GW actually thought they made a mistake with fliers. I mean, they came in and completely crushed the meta - then poof they vanished. Theyre all overpriced for what they do now, or have ground equivs for the same job that are much more reliable if not cheaper.
I mean, look at the Dakkajet. That thing used to be a menace in the sky, now its kinda "eh" and i dont know anybody that even cares for it. I have FIVE of those damn things, and im kinda pissed how gimped theyve become now a 5man Lobba squad does as much if not more damage the Dakkajet did and almost never goes away unless youre getting tabled
Tau fliers except the Barracuda were always trash. The Remoras were nifty but not good, or bad.
Don't forget about the Eldar Crimson Hunter, the best anti-flyer flyer in the game (and it isn't so bad against armor either). Everyone was giving a big stink about the Crimson Death formation...until people realized it costs 440 points just to field.
maceria wrote: Well, if the Barracuda is in fact being discontinued, it can mean only one thing: PLASTIC GW BARRACUDA!
But since it's OBVIOUSLY not in the new dex, that means a new new codex is on the way.
I like the way you think! Forge World is just replacing the molds to accommodate increased demand after the Barracuda is included in the codex!
I think that, for the most part, the flyer problem wasn't flyers being broken, it was people not having tools/skills to deal with them. Just like every time a new codex comes out, it's "broken and unbeatable" until people learn how to counter it. With Eldar shaped exceptions, of course.
Technically if GW is bringing the Barracuda into the main codex, they wouldn't have to release new rules if they just copied them from FW and thus wouldn't need a preview in a WD
Tau fliers except the Barracuda were always trash. The Remoras were nifty but not good, or bad.
I've seen some people use the Remoras at high levels of play, and I can't say their rules are bad exactly, they just seem a little pricey, although not that price with all the nice things they come with.
Bleh, I can't wait for the new codex but I'm dreading finding out if they changed certain units to be better or not.
I mean I have a million ways of giving Stealthsuits a minor buff to make them viable, that are all different, but I feel like they aren't going to be changed simply because they were on the very cusp of playable as is. Then again as far as we know they are in a formation, but that might not be enough even D:
My top choices to make them better though would be either to just make them troop choices, or to let them upgrade all of their weapons to a bigger variety of weapons. As in all three could take Fusion Cannons or Plasma Rifles, instead of one out of three, while the others are stuck with cruddy Burst Cannons.
Well, all we do know about stealthsuits so far is that they get a formation with the Ghostkeel. Also, in the campaign book their statline was unchanged if I remember right.
I'm very curious what the formation bonus for that will be.
maceria wrote: Well, all we do know about stealthsuits so far is that they get a formation with the Ghostkeel. Also, in the campaign book their statline was unchanged if I remember right.
I'm very curious what the formation bonus for that will be.
Do we have people with the campaign book or just general bits and pieces.
Honestly, I don't mind the stat line of the Stealth Suits, even their point cost isn't that bad, it's just their weapon choices and competition that makes them awkward. Their points, weapons, and stats would make sense for a specialized troop choice, more than something that competes with the Swiss army knife known as the Crisis Suit or the power house of the Riptide. In fact, their stock Burst Cannons are about on par with the pulse weapons Fire Warriors wield, except they're tankier at the expense of having shorter range than Pulse Rifles.
Actually, think about it, if you look at SC2, the Fire Warriors are essentially Marines, which are good for more large scale armies, while the Stealth Suits are Marauders, which complement a mech army more. Their function is to basically take on large groups of ground units, while protecting your more expensive units that carry the specialized weapons. Fire Warriors on the other hand put out stronger fire power (more shots), at a longer range, but ultimately are a lot more squishy.
So there's still hope I suppose. I feel like the Stealth Suits could make an amazing troop choice, with no other changes, that fits between the Strikers and Breachers, while also making the homing beacon more useful.
I know that the formation will keep them from using up force org slots, but there's a big difference between that and being able to take two Stealth Suit units without taking any other troops.
It's just the more I think about it, the more they feel like they should just be a troop choice, they basically hit every criteria for being one, and could promote a far more interesting Mech Army than the FSE ever could.
I think the best you could hope for would be to put stealth suits in the FA slot. But honestly, with the post Necron codices, the CAD isn't really how the game is played anymore.
Tinkrr wrote: So there's still hope I suppose. I feel like the Stealth Suits could make an amazing troop choice, with no other changes, that fits between the Strikers and Breachers, while also making the homing beacon more useful.
I know that the formation will keep them from using up force org slots, but there's a big difference between that and being able to take two Stealth Suit units without taking any other troops.
It's just the more I think about it, the more they feel like they should just be a troop choice, they basically hit every criteria for being one, and could promote a far more interesting Mech Army than the FSE ever could.
The named Stealth Suit unit in the Burning Dawn supplement was still an Elites choice and at current costs 5pts more than it should be. That said, the unit also has the Precision Shots special rule so maybe they thought that warranted a slight increase. A unit of Stealth Suits with nothing but burst cannons should be able to put enough wounds on units to take out special weapons fairly easily, so you could use them as an assassination squad.
A tactical squad without special or heavy weapons is of little use, after all.
Tinkrr wrote: So there's still hope I suppose. I feel like the Stealth Suits could make an amazing troop choice, with no other changes, that fits between the Strikers and Breachers, while also making the homing beacon more useful.
I know that the formation will keep them from using up force org slots, but there's a big difference between that and being able to take two Stealth Suit units without taking any other troops.
It's just the more I think about it, the more they feel like they should just be a troop choice, they basically hit every criteria for being one, and could promote a far more interesting Mech Army than the FSE ever could.
The named Stealth Suit unit in the Burning Dawn supplement was still an Elites choice and at current costs 5pts more than it should be. That said, the unit also has the Precision Shots special rule so maybe they thought that warranted a slight increase. A unit of Stealth Suits with nothing but burst cannons should be able to put enough wounds on units to take out special weapons fairly easily, so you could use them as an assassination squad.
A tactical squad without special or heavy weapons is of little use, after all.
That's honestly kind of sad, and doesn't really appeal to the Stealth Suits as they are now. If anything, that just makes them more confused than before, since their one special weapon wants them to target vehicles, while their burst cannons target infantry, and now they want to be assassins despite not really having any utility for that? I mean I get it, someone at GW wants to make them special in a such a way that they're still worthy of the elite slot, but honestly, every time I see something tacked onto them, it just feels like it's in the wrong direction.
I mean I don't want to be overly harsh on them, as they aren't exactly terrible to an extreme point as is, it's just it feels like everything being done to them drags them in so many directions that they play against themselves more than anything else. Which is pretty sad, as I really like their models and concept, I just wish they'd just pick a direction with them and go with it, as opposed to thinning them across so many concepts that they simply become too diluted to matter.
Opinion discarded, placed in a fire proof waste bin, doused with agent orange and burned as blatantly false. Just because you don't know how to use them does not mean this is in any way shape or form remotely true.
If you look at actual results its blatantly true since the last three books came out
Opinion discarded, placed in a fire proof waste bin, doused with agent orange and burned as blatantly false. Just because you don't know how to use them does not mean this is in any way shape or form remotely true.
If you look at actual results its blatantly true since the last three books came out
Eldar
Necrons
Marines
Everyone else
An arguement could be made to swap necrons with marines, but they are still top 3. Dont believe me? Start a poll. Ask weather people think necrons are one of the top 3 armies. I guarantee you your results will apparently suprise you.
Opinion discarded, placed in a fire proof waste bin, doused with agent orange and burned as blatantly false. Just because you don't know how to use them does not mean this is in any way shape or form remotely true.
If you look at actual results its blatantly true since the last three books came out
Eldar
Necrons
Marines
Everyone else
An arguement could be made to swap necrons with marines, but they are still top 3. Dont believe me? Start a poll. Ask weather people think necrons are one of the top 3 armies. I guarantee you your results will apparently suprise you.
That is a terribly written, almost completely biased poll since you make absolutely zero mention of other factions and offer only a yes/no vote. Useless poll and empty numbers. Not to mention your post suggests that voters are insane if they vote "No." If that's not bias I have no idea what is.
Opinion discarded, placed in a fire proof waste bin, doused with agent orange and burned as blatantly false. Just because you don't know how to use them does not mean this is in any way shape or form remotely true.
If you look at actual results its blatantly true since the last three books came out
Eldar
Necrons
Marines
Everyone else
An arguement could be made to swap necrons with marines, but they are still top 3. Dont believe me? Start a poll. Ask weather people think necrons are one of the top 3 armies. I guarantee you your results will apparently suprise you.
That is a terribly written, almost completely biased poll since you make absolutely zero mention of other factions and offer only a yes/no vote. Useless poll and empty numbers. Not to mention your post suggests that voters are insane if they vote "No." If that's not bias I have no idea what is.
...what other Codex is at the same power tier as Necrons and Battle Company Marines? I'm pretty sure Necrons are easily in the second or third slot in terms of overall codex power.
Sure, there are gimmick lists that are extremely powerful (Thunderdome comes to mind) but the individual codices that make up that list are not power houses like Eldar, Necrons and Marines
Necrons are the second highest -army as a whole-. There's more broken specific units to make a horrible power list out of though. That's the distinction.
Kahnawake wrote: Hey guys, do you know if the new drone pack of 2 at least has all the options? (shield, missile, markerlight, gun)
Kahnawake
Not sure of the source, but someone over on the Warseer thread said that it would have options for shield, markerlight and gun (no mention of missile). Don't know how true that is, but hope it helps
Actually mold repair is much less common than stuff simply going OOP. A lot of the Tau stuff they used to make has disappeared because of low sales, so it's not exactly surprising that the Barracuda might as well.
But hey, at least it's a kit the recasters sell, and now you don't have to feel guilty for buying one and saving a bunch of money.
While I agree with you, this might be a case where they couldn't compete with recast prices and so it didn't pay to produce the kit anymore. It just goes to show you how high priced kits are when you can buy a recast barracuda for $60 and it was twice that (or more) from FW. Instead of looking at their pricing model, they just take their toys and go home.
Ichiban on Warseer is starting to spill the beans:
Quote Originally Posted by Bob Hunk View Post
Hurray, it's that time again! Thanks in advance Iuchiban.
I guess the first questions that spring to mind for me are:
1. Are Hammerheads available in squadrons?
2. Are Devilfish now available as separate Fast Attack choices?
3. Can normal Fire Warrior strike teams purchase the DS8 tactical support turrets, or are they breacher-only?
4. Is it true that a Commander in Coldstar armour has no access to Signature Systems?
5. What exactly does the Optimised Stealth Cadre formation do?
Ok, let's go:
1. Yes. Hammerheads and Skyrays
2. Yes
3. Yes they can. And by the way, max unit size is 12 for strike teams, 10 for breachers.
4. No, he can't. He can buy two Support systems.
5. IMO this is one of the best formations in the book. Ghostkeels and any Stealth Battlesuit unit in the formation at 6" of the Ghostkeel ignore cover, add +1 to BS and hit vehicles in the rear!!!!!
BONUS:
Codex is soft cover (Don't know if this was known)
Markerlights (1 marker) can be used to increase the Destroyer Missiles from S8 to SD!!!!!
Holy gak, Destroyer Missiles become Destroyer weapons by using a single Markerlight token per missile? Wow, that fully explains the "Titan-Killer" advertising doesn't it!
Actually, holy gak at that Stealth Suit/Ghostkeel formation. Makes the Fusion Collider really powerful with native Ignores Cover and hitting vehicles on rear armour (though this also makes the Cyclic Ion Raker exceptionally good at tank hunting). That's sick.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just thinking now, this completely changes the perception of Stormsurges right? Four Destroyer AP1 shots per Stormsurge on top of all the usual shooting makes them downright terrifying for their points cost.
Wow, that makes the "Waah! My codex isn't broken!" people look a little silly now. The frickin' Stormsurge is a monster! That Ghostkeel formation is crazy powerful.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Wow, that makes the "Waah! My codex isn't broken!" people look a little silly now. The frickin' Stormsurge is a monster! That Ghostkeel formation is crazy powerful.
Definitely agreed on both fronts, I always thought the Stormsurge was good and my LGS tests of it indicated as such but...man, four one-use-only Destroyer shots that can themselves be buffed by Markerlights (BS5, Ignores Cover) is ridiculous when you look at all the other firepower it puts out. I recall someone posted rumoured terrible rules for the Stealth Cadre that proved hugely wrong, the actual formation is one of the strongest we've seen in a while. Think about it; BS4 Stealth Teams/Ghostkeels that always hit the rear armour of vehicles when they shoot, natively Ignores Cover. Skimmers like Wave Serpents will get obliterated by this formation en masse!
casvalremdeikun wrote: Wow, that makes the "Waah! My codex isn't broken!" people look a little silly now. The frickin' Stormsurge is a monster! That Ghostkeel formation is crazy powerful.
I don't want a broken codex. I want a codex on par with SM. Not much to ask, is it?
Still waiting for changes in other units. D missiles and stealth formation apart, all others were expected
Rules for Hunter Cadre:
- Defensive fire at 12"
- Can run and the shoot. In this order.
Rules for Hunter Contigent:
- Reroll Warlord trait
- Units can combine their shooting attacks, and shoot as if they were a single unit. So they can get benefit from special rules and the same markerlight, for example. This is really, really powerful.
We're Warmachine now Way more interesting than doubling markerlight rumour. Bravo, GW.
- Is there a Decurion-style detachment in the book?
- How is the artwork in the fluff section, are there new pictures or do you feel it's all recycled?
Rules for Hunter Cadre:
- Defensive fire at 12"
- Can run and the shoot. In this order.
Rules for Hunter Contigent:
- Reroll Warlord trait
- Units can combine their shooting attacks, and shoot as if they were a single unit. So they can get benefit from special rules and the same markerlight, for example. This is really, really powerful.
That Decurion-equivalent is messed up....sharing Markerlight tokens? Sharing special rules (i.e. Ignores Cover/Tank Hunters/Monster Hunters/etc)? Wow. The Core formation is maybe one of the best for any codex we've seen so far, you can take all of the heavy firepower you need purely from the Core formation and the buffs - Run then Shoot/12" Supporting Fire - are significant too.
Even if most of the units don't change the formations/Decurion more than make this army hugely competitive now for sure!
And oh my god Tau now have an incredible answer to death-stars....wow. Reecius must be wetting his pants over this!
Looks like fireblades are still HQ so not a unit upgrade. Riptides are up to 3 in a unit like the hammerheads. Fire team rule is +1 BS if 3 man unit. Crisis Body Guard is Elite slot now.
Other news, the "Fire Team" special rule is a +1 Ballistic Skill bonus for a unit that consists of three or more when shooting. Presumably this doesn't include Drones as otherwise a single Ghostkeel with its 2 Stealth Drones would always have this significant buff! Riptides also have this special rule and can be taken in squads of 1-3 just like Ghostkeels!
My questions:
1. Is iridium armour no longer a signature system?
2. Are weapons like the cyclic ion blaster and frag launcher thingy still experimental?
3. What does the formation of 2 Stormsurge/3 Ghostkeel provide?
4. Are Stealth Suits still Elites, or have they finally been moved to FA or even Troops?
5. Have Kroot changed at all?
Thanks!
1. It is. Signature systems are pretty much the same.
2.They are not. They can be purchased normally (like a Fusion Blaster for example)
3. If target is at 12" or less from the Ghostkeel, reroll to hit. It two units of the formation, shoot at the same target, target unit cannot run or move flat out next turn, and assault distance is halved (rounded down)
4. Elite
5. Not really.
From Ichiban on Warseer
Automatically Appended Next Post: I wonder if that means the stealth formation (+1 BS to Ghostkeil) can get BS 5 with the Fire team rule too. That means hitting on two without the need for marker lights
So, it appears that units which used to be useless, continue to be useless. Weak. This is turning out to be one of the lamest new Codex releases since, uh, previous Tau Codex release.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Wow, that makes the "Waah! My codex isn't broken!" people look a little silly now. The frickin' Stormsurge is a monster! That Ghostkeel formation is crazy powerful.
I don't want a broken codex. I want a codex on par with SM. Not much to ask, is it?
Yeah, instead you have a codex that absolutely obliterates anything and everything that Space Marines can bring. It wrecks Eldar's day too.
Backfire wrote:So, it appears that units which used to be useless, continue to be useless. Weak. This is turning out to be one of the lamest new Codex releases since, uh, previous Tau Codex release.
Could have been worse. My only disappointment is that they didn't change bad units and nerfed the ones who needed it.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Wow, that makes the "Waah! My codex isn't broken!" people look a little silly now. The frickin' Stormsurge is a monster! That Ghostkeel formation is crazy powerful.
I don't want a broken codex. I want a codex on par with SM. Not much to ask, is it?
Yeah, instead you have a codex that absolutely obliterates anything and everything that Space Marines can bring. It wrecks Eldar's day too.
Because of formations. Vespid, Stealth Suits and Kroot still are bad choices in a CAD.
Backfire wrote: So, it appears that units which used to be useless, continue to be useless. Weak. This is turning out to be one of the lamest new Codex releases since, uh, previous Tau Codex release.
Not true actually. Stealth Teams are crazy good in their formation with the Ghostkeel. Devilfishes have always been decent and will see play because of Breachers (the Run then Shoot thing is awesome for Breachers). Hammerheads still aren't as good as Skyrays but generally units in that bracket get big buffs to make them at least worthwhile now. The only real unknowns are Sniper Drones/Vespid/the fliers now which he hasn't mentioned.
Backfire wrote:So, it appears that units which used to be useless, continue to be useless. Weak. This is turning out to be one of the lamest new Codex releases since, uh, previous Tau Codex release.
Could have been worse. My only disappointment is that they didn't change bad units and nerfed the ones who needed it.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Wow, that makes the "Waah! My codex isn't broken!" people look a little silly now. The frickin' Stormsurge is a monster! That Ghostkeel formation is crazy powerful.
I don't want a broken codex. I want a codex on par with SM. Not much to ask, is it?
Yeah, instead you have a codex that absolutely obliterates anything and everything that Space Marines can bring. It wrecks Eldar's day too.
Because of formations. Vespid, Stealth Suits and Kroot still are bad choices in a CAD.
Honestly though, why would you ever take a CAD with Tau now? The buffs they get from the formations/Decurion are among the best I've seen for any army so far. Much like Necrons there's almost no reason to ever run non-Decurion/Hunter Contingent lists with this codex.
Kanluwen wrote: And Railsides just got a huge buff if they have the "Fire Team" special rule.
Don't be silly:
Iuchiban wrote:
Do every unit get the fire team rule?
No, only:
- Riptides
- Ghostkeels
- Hamerheads
- Skyrays
Railsides can't have nice things.
I'd disagree, that Hunter Contingent would get them some nice stuff...
Rules for Hunter Contigent:
- Reroll Warlord trait
- Units can combine their shooting attacks, and shoot as if they were a single unit. So they can get benefit from special rules and the same markerlight, for example. This is really, really powerful.
Who cares if they don't have Fire Teams natively--they can still get it!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nudibranch wrote: Gahhh, the Fire Team rules is so clearly designed to make you buy more Stormsurges/Riptides/Ghostkeels etc...
agnosto wrote: While I agree with you, this might be a case where they couldn't compete with recast prices and so it didn't pay to produce the kit anymore. It just goes to show you how high priced kits are when you can buy a recast barracuda for $60 and it was twice that (or more) from FW. Instead of looking at their pricing model, they just take their toys and go home.
(underline for emphasis)
I'm sorry but When can they compete with recast prices?
It's a great rule to be fair. It makes Railgun Hammerheads much better, and while IA Riptides didn't need the buff the HBC certainly gets quite a bit out of it. As long as Riptides can take Target Locks the whole shtick of "competitive Tau features three Riptides" can stick around in that way with a free buff and some downsides (being one unit).
Backfire wrote: So, it appears that units which used to be useless, continue to be useless. Weak. This is turning out to be one of the lamest new Codex releases since, uh, previous Tau Codex release.
Not true actually. Stealth Teams are crazy good in their formation with the Ghostkeel. Devilfishes have always been decent and will see play because of Breachers (the Run then Shoot thing is awesome for Breachers). Hammerheads still aren't as good as Skyrays but generally units in that bracket get big buffs to make them at least worthwhile now. The only real unknowns are Sniper Drones/Vespid/the fliers now which he hasn't mentioned.
Backfire wrote:So, it appears that units which used to be useless, continue to be useless. Weak. This is turning out to be one of the lamest new Codex releases since, uh, previous Tau Codex release.
Could have been worse. My only disappointment is that they didn't change bad units and nerfed the ones who needed it.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Wow, that makes the "Waah! My codex isn't broken!" people look a little silly now. The frickin' Stormsurge is a monster! That Ghostkeel formation is crazy powerful.
I don't want a broken codex. I want a codex on par with SM. Not much to ask, is it?
Yeah, instead you have a codex that absolutely obliterates anything and everything that Space Marines can bring. It wrecks Eldar's day too.
Because of formations. Vespid, Stealth Suits and Kroot still are bad choices in a CAD.
Honestly though, why would you ever take a CAD with Tau now? The buffs they get from the formations/Decurion are among the best I've seen for any army so far. Much like Necrons there's almost no reason to ever run non-Decurion/Hunter Contingent lists with this codex.
You are correct. Still, there are some out there who doesn't run/their club forbids it. Anyway, I'll need a CAD because I have lots of FW stuff.
The run and shoot is indeed good for Breachers, and turns our Crisis even more mobile (6" jump, run d6", assault move 2d6"). Almost a Jetbike
Luchiban really needs to clarify how the whole "sharing special rules" thing works. Is it any special rule when making a shooting attack? Technically that would mean as soon as one unit with a twin-linked gun shoots all units shooting at that target would be twin-linked as well!!!! WUT!?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Fair enough @Vector Strike, I won't lie about it; it does suck for list-building as it forces Tau players to take the Hunter Contingent when they might not want to. However, Tau are still pretty competitive without the Contingent and are IMO now top-tier with it. The Contingent buff immediately answers the problem of death-stars IMO, both the shared Markerlights and shared special rules. Also the Destroyer Missiles for the Stormsurges give Tau an affordable and now really reliable Imperial Knight/Super Heavy/Gargantuan Creature killer. A lot of units that needed buffs might stay in the gutter (exception being Stealth Suits via formation) but Tau are about to hit a new level of tournament play IMO.
Dr. Delorean wrote: Quick, someone call Gamgee and tell him he's gonna be a happy man!
Seriously, that single change to the Stormsurge utterly 180s the ball game. 4 D shots is gonna ruin most SHs/GCs out there.
There's a guy (not Gamgee) on ATT that still thinks Stormsurges suck because "it is only four Destroyer shots", discarding the fact that with Markerlights those four Destroyer shots can be Ballistic Skill 5+ with Ignores Cover and can be split between four different targets in one phase. Combined with the Pulse Driver Cannon a Stormsurge will easily destroy an Imperial Knight by itself before it gets anywhere close to the Tau lines. Mind you, that same person said Stormsurges suck earlier (before the leak) because one Stormsurge can't take on 5 Imperial Knights (the person said "at best it will kill two Knights before they get close"). Like....how utterly inane and wrong can someone be If a 360-400 point unit manages to take out 600-800+ points of stuff before it dies, how is that not good!?
Caederes wrote: Luchiban really needs to clarify how the whole "sharing special rules" thing works. Is it any special rule when making a shooting attack? Technically that would mean as soon as one unit with a twin-linked gun shoots all units shooting at that target would be twin-linked as well!!!! WUT!?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Fair enough @Vector Strike, I won't lie about it; it does suck for list-building as it forces Tau players to take the Hunter Contingent when they might not want to. However, Tau are still pretty competitive without the Contingent and are IMO now top-tier with it. The Contingent buff immediately answers the problem of death-stars IMO, both the shared Markerlights and shared special rules. Also the Destroyer Missiles for the Stormsurges give Tau an affordable and now really reliable Imperial Knight/Super Heavy/Gargantuan Creature killer. A lot of units that needed buffs might stay in the gutter (exception being Stealth Suits via formation) but Tau are about to hit a new level of tournament play IMO.
I agree. Stormsurge value will skyrocket. I'm happy with the change to the Destroyer missiles.
Regarding the special rules: you're right. plain special rules sharing is... groudnbreaking. Saving up markerlights are already pretty good in my book.
Dr. Delorean wrote: Quick, someone call Gamgee and tell him he's gonna be a happy man!
Seriously, that single change to the Stormsurge utterly 180s the ball game. 4 D shots is gonna ruin most SHs/GCs out there.
There's a guy (not Gamgee) on ATT that still thinks Stormsurges suck because "it is only four Destroyer shots", discarding the fact that with Markerlights those four Destroyer shots can be Ballistic Skill 5 with Ignores Cover. Combined with the Pulse Driver Cannon a Stormsurge will easily destroy an Imperial Knight by itself before it gets anywhere close to the Tau lines. Mind you, that same person said Stormsurges suck earlier (before the leak) because one Stormsurge can't take on 5 Imperial Knights (the person said "at best it will kill two Knights before they get close"). Like....how utterly inane and wrong can someone be If a 360-400 point unit manages to take out 600-800+ points of stuff before it dies, how is that not good!?
Yeah I saw that, the guy just cannot like the Stormsurge for some reason. Maybe a stormsurge fell off a gaming table and killed his cat? It's a big model.
Dr. Delorean wrote: Quick, someone call Gamgee and tell him he's gonna be a happy man!
Seriously, that single change to the Stormsurge utterly 180s the ball game. 4 D shots is gonna ruin most SHs/GCs out there.
I find it kinda' ironic that those four small missiles can do more than that one XBOXHUEG gun. Why can't I replace the big gun with moar Destroyer Missiles... I'am asking you!
Retallion Cadre
- 1 Commander
- 3 units of Crisis
- 1 Broadside unit
- 1 Riptide unit
Rules: Relentless
+1 BS when Deep striking
May choose to enter from reserves in turn 2 via Deep Strike. This includes Broadsides.
Heavy Retribution Cradre (see previous posts)
Infiltration Cadre
- 3 Pathfinder units
- 2 Stealth battlesuit units
- 1 Piranha unit
Rules: If one unit of the formation is destroyed, rest of the formation enters from reserve next turn automatically.
If an enemy unit gets hit by 3 or more markerights from this formation, you get a free Seeker missile hit to this unit.
Optimised Stealth Cadre (See previous posts).
Firebase Support cadre
- 2 units of battlesuits
- 1 unit Riptides
Note that they do not have to be max size like before
Rules: They formation can combine their shooting attacks and shoot as a single unit. When doing so, they get Tank and monster hunter SR.
Armored Interdiction Cadre
- 3 Units of Hammerheads
- 1 Unit of Sky Rays
Rules: Choose a point in the battlefield. When shooting to a unit at 6" or less from this point, reroll to hit.
Air Support cadre:
- 1 Sun Shark Bomber
- 1 Razorshark Strike Fighter
Rules: Ignore shaken and stunned with 2+.
Beginning of the turn, roll a D6 for each lost hull point. If you roll a 6, recover 1 HP.
Allied Advanced Cadre
- 4 units of Kroot
- 2 units of Vespids
Rules: Vespids get Infiltration and Stealth (Forests)
Kroot at 12" from Vespid units, get Obscured (Forests) instead of Stealth (Forests), and get +1 BS They all get supporting fire with other units of the formation.
Dr. Delorean wrote: Quick, someone call Gamgee and tell him he's gonna be a happy man!
Seriously, that single change to the Stormsurge utterly 180s the ball game. 4 D shots is gonna ruin most SHs/GCs out there.
There's a guy (not Gamgee) on ATT that still thinks Stormsurges suck because "it is only four Destroyer shots", discarding the fact that with Markerlights those four Destroyer shots can be Ballistic Skill 5+ with Ignores Cover and can be split between four different targets in one phase. Combined with the Pulse Driver Cannon a Stormsurge will easily destroy an Imperial Knight by itself before it gets anywhere close to the Tau lines. Mind you, that same person said Stormsurges suck earlier (before the leak) because one Stormsurge can't take on 5 Imperial Knights (the person said "at best it will kill two Knights before they get close"). Like....how utterly inane and wrong can someone be If a 360-400 point unit manages to take out 600-800+ points of stuff before it dies, how is that not good!?
I'm not gonna lie, but that?
That Stormsurge+Ghostkeel formation, with Markerlight support, is going to be absurd...especially if the Hunter Contingent Detachment rule allows for Fire Team rule to be shared out and you can throw an additional Stormsurge in.
All in all, I'm impressed by this. They changed very little but man is it significant change.
If the special rules sharing is unlimited it actually makes Tau utterly game-breaking. Remembering that the fething Core formation can take Broadsides, you can get your HYMP Broadsides to shoot at an Invisible death-star unit. This gives everyone shooting at the death-star Twin-Linked. Then, you shoot all your twin-linked Markerlights at said death-star. Depending on how many you have you should easily get like four-five tokens. Now, you are up to Ballistic Skill 4 w/ Twin-Linked plus Ignores Cover, and now you get a weapon with Shred (if there is one in the Tau codex, if there isn't then I apologize) to shoot at said unit. Whatever the unit is it is DEAD regardless of what it is, even 2++/re-rollable death-stars are going to feel the heat.
Regarding the special rules: you're right. plain special rules sharing is... groudnbreaking. Saving up markerlights are already pretty good in my book.
That would make lots of sense if it was like the opposite of supporting fire, units within X" of each other can share rules and combine fire or something. Just flat out ruling across the formation, woah.
now a 5man Lobba squad does as much if not more damage the Dakkajet did and almost never goes away unless youre getting tabled
