casvalremdeikun wrote: *sigh* Looks like Ignore Cover is even more important than it already was. Glad I run a ton of Flamer weapons in both of my armies. TFCs are on my buy list even more than they already were.
Also acceptable ways to deal with the 265 pt wall of doom:
Whirlwinds, Squads of Vindicators, Psychic Shriek, Divination
There's another even easier way to get around the Tidewall: run up close and contest it. The Tau player won't be able to move it, and you can then claim cover saves from it so that Tau vehicles have to suffer the Wall of Glancing Death. And if you're that close, you're guaranteed a charge onto the Tau forces to wipe them in CC.
Charge Tau...and get wiped out in Overwatch. Still, moving up and sitting on it myself would be fun. I'd still be able to torch it with my Land Raider Redeemer too. Looks like that thing is always going to be moving Cruising Speed and firing a sponson using PotMS.
Edit: Completely forgot about my ObSec Sternguard and their IC ammo.
If you're getting wiped out during overwatch, then you're either supremely unlucky and the Tau player rolled extremely well, or you charged with too few models.
casvalremdeikun wrote: *sigh* Looks like Ignore Cover is even more important than it already was. Glad I run a ton of Flamer weapons in both of my armies. TFCs are on my buy list even more than they already were.
Also acceptable ways to deal with the 265 pt wall of doom:
Whirlwinds, Squads of Vindicators, Psychic Shriek, Divination
There's another even easier way to get around the Tidewall: run up close and contest it. The Tau player won't be able to move it, and you can then claim cover saves from it so that Tau vehicles have to suffer the Wall of Glancing Death. And if you're that close, you're guaranteed a charge onto the Tau forces to wipe them in CC.
Charge Tau...and get wiped out in Overwatch. Still, moving up and sitting on it myself would be fun. I'd still be able to torch it with my Land Raider Redeemer too. Looks like that thing is always going to be moving Cruising Speed and firing a sponson using PotMS.
Edit: Completely forgot about my ObSec Sternguard and their IC ammo.
If you're getting wiped out during overwatch, then you're either supremely unlucky and the Tau player rolled extremely well, or you charged with too few models.
Supporting Fire and Snap Shot manipulation make it hard. Still, a unit of Death Company or my Dante Sanguinary Star will get there to wreck face. They just won't be shooting at stuff first.
mazik765 wrote: I love reading this thread because it seems every page it flips from "tau are op because of the tidelwall!" to "tau are useless because 80pt devilfish!". Make up your mind
Pfft. Every unit should is too cheap unless I'm fielding them, in which case they are all way overcosted. =]
So far, Tau look good. The thing is, we haven't seen the Secret Sauce. What are the squad and formation bonuses... I mean, these will make or break the faction. I await the Codex [leaks] with baited breath!!
Overwatch is only once per turn (except for longstrike). Therefore, set up multiple charges. Make the Tau player decide on who (if any) he can stop. It isn't rocket science.
It's like the people bitching about the low chance for a landraider to bolter itself to death. If that's a real problem for you in a game, then it's because you got outplayed. Same thing if overwatch destroys your only chance to win. You already lost if you're relying on a suicide charge to win.
davethepak wrote: The wall comments are ....special. Maybe be like elsa, and let it go?
The prices on the new things are just bad business.
The justification "they had to make new molds" is pure bunk - with advances in technology and design, they should be cheaper, not more expensive. They are a vertically integrated monopoly - they have one of the best cost structures possible.
Gw has incredible margins - they charge high prices due to their hubris and ignorance of what they are selling and to whom they are selling it too.
With smart business leadership this company would be a billion dollar industry - instead they try to squeeze as much blood from a stone as they continue to lose customers.
I was hoping to get a few more friends in to 40k recently, but at these prices, poor rules, lack of customer interfacing and alternative gaming products - is not just losing existing customers - but many future ones as well.
My friends and I stopped giving our money to Games-Workshop a long time ago and their exorbitant prices prevented by girl from getting into the hobby as well. I'll check out the new stuff, but I'm not going to buy any of it until I have an insane disposable income, but by that time, I might as well just buy the company and make the changes that need to be made myself.
i don't know if it's been brought up. but GW will be re-releasing the Tidewall rampart on 31st October, but in its constituent parts so shield wall, rail turret and droneport. They should really just have kept the Tidewall Rampart bundle up as well though.
angelofvengeance wrote: i don't know if it's been brought up. but GW will be re-releasing the Tidewall rampart on 31st October, but in its constituent parts so shield wall, rail turret and droneport. They should really just have kept the Tidewall Rampart bundle up as well though.
Well, they are fething morons, so I'm not surprised...
angelofvengeance wrote: iThey should really just have kept the Tidewall Rampart bundle up as well though.
Yeah, but if they keep the bundle up then you might be able to guess which new releases are "BUY NOW OR NEVER" limited editions and which ones are just bundles you'll be able to buy at any time. And that might lead to people deciding to wait and see instead of immediately buying every new release as soon as it hits the website, just because there was a rumor that it's a limited-edition thing.
(Plus, the price will probably go up. Not because the bundle actually saved you money, but because weekly price increases are a great idea! Buy within the next 15 minutes or pay 10% more!)
I think I've changed my mind. This tidewall is so completely broken, it will make the game impossible to play for anyone but Tau, just like overwatch made it impossible to assault anything ever.
At the same time, Dfish not being made 35 pts and the Coldstars gun not being a assault 15 SD 48" melta means Tau will completely and thoroughly useless! They are now bottom tier garbage, and can never win a game ever. For any reason. EVER. Just like Orks.
So, Tau players, I will now buy your Crisis suits from you for $1 each. I know, I know, I'm being very generous considering they are completely worthless.
maceria wrote: I think I've changed my mind. This tidewall is so completely broken, it will make the game impossible to play for anyone but Tau, just like overwatch made it impossible to assault anything ever.
At the same time, Dfish not being made 35 pts and the Coldstars gun not being a assault 15 SD 48" melta means Tau will completely and thoroughly useless! They are now bottom tier garbage, and can never win a game ever. For any reason. EVER. Just like Orks.
So, Tau players, I will now buy your Crisis suits from you for $1 each. I know, I know, I'm being very generous considering they are completely worthless.
You got a deal sir, I'll take five of your finest Crisis Suits for that price D:
maceria wrote: I think I've changed my mind. This tidewall is so completely broken, it will make the game impossible to play for anyone but Tau, just like overwatch made it impossible to assault anything ever.
At the same time, Dfish not being made 35 pts and the Coldstars gun not being a assault 15 SD 48" melta means Tau will completely and thoroughly useless! They are now bottom tier garbage, and can never win a game ever. For any reason. EVER. Just like Orks.
So, Tau players, I will now buy your Crisis suits from you for $1 each. I know, I know, I'm being very generous considering they are completely worthless.
I was all ready to decry you asking for Devilfish costing 35pts, but then I realized you were being facetious. Poe's Law strikes again!
How would a Str D melta work anyway? Would you get 2 rolls on the D table, picking the best? The mind boggles.
I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I think the Devilfish is fairly costed for what it offers. I do wish we had a cheaper transport, but I'd rather they create a worse transport (eg. without AV12 on the front, not a skimmer, etc etc) and kept the Devilfish the same.
I agree honestly. Devilfish is a solid transport. I wouldn't lower its cost, I think giving it "Fast" would be a more appropriate way to improve it without breaking.
Bringing back our old vehicle systems would also be nice. Being able move 12" and fire your SMS and BC ad different targets was pretty awesome.
Then again, that piece of wargear let you move 12" and fire the railgun, or move 6" and fire the railgun and your 2 different BC and three different targets. It was awesome.
Lastly, never take anything I say seriously: I'm on the internet.
I like the Devilfish as it is, but I wish it would get a price reduction, even if it means it would be nerfed.
That's not to say I think it's bad, as even at its cost I could see taking it for a Breacher unit. Maybe if we get a Breacher formation that shaves points off of the Devilfish to make them exceptionally competitive, despite their minor weaknesses, since they're not exactly a bad unit as is, they're simply very niche.
The biggest problem imho with the dfish is that even though it is 'more survivable' than say a rhino or a trukk, its still almost guaranteed to die if you actually use it for what transports are normally used (getting stuff across the field). Its still only AV10 on the rear and you cant jink vs assault so anything with a power weapon simply kills it, and then you have nice and expensive fireworks. Likewise it will have a hard time actually helping with holding an objective, because of the same vulnerability, and while it might have better firepower than a rhino, its not like 3 shots from a BC and 2 from drones are really likely to kill a lot (granted the SMS is better, but those cost points, making it even more expensive, even forgetting the pretty much mandatory dpod which is 15 points now a days).
Well here in the UK I'm pretty sure Crisis Suits were already £45 for 3, or £15.50 each if you bought the individual packs (which made the boxes of 3 an actual price reduction of £1.50! )
£30 for a generic commander? Yeah no, GW. I've managed to build all of the crisis and broadside members of Farsights Eight without buying your Commander model or new broadside model, I'm sure I'll continue to manage.
And on the 2 Drones for £7.70... If GW think they're going to sell those without stripping all of the drones from every other kit then that is just a waste of packaging as nobody will buy that. Though I can see GW doing exactly that.
Instead of that 2 Drone pack they could've released a Devilfish weapon pack containing two pairs of SMS turrets to replace the gun drones on the Devilfish. People would've actually bought that if they wanted to use Devilfish.
Honestly I kinda wish they had done 6 crisis suits for $100. Still crazy, and at triple digits it's going to make lots of people coming into the store go "WTF?!" and run the other way, but if you want a lot of them it works out cheaper that way, at least.
$75 for three is more about what I expected. It's only $10 more than the old ones and they're better in just about every way. It's still really expensive, I know, but it could have been a lot worse. $50 commander is insane, but at least it's not fething Finecast anymore...that still better be an amazing kit, though.
Sidstyler wrote: Honestly I kinda wish they had done 6 crisis suits for $100. Still crazy, and at triple digits it's going to make lots of people coming into the store go "WTF?!" and run the other way, but if you want a lot of them it works out cheaper that way, at least.
$75 for three is more about what I expected. It's only $10 more than the old ones and they're better in just about every way. It's still really expensive, I know, but it could have been a lot worse. $50 commander is insane, but at least it's not fething Finecast anymore...that still better be an amazing kit, though.
$12 for two drones? lmao
Unfortunately, no matter how amazing the commander kit is, you won't be getting your money's worth. It's less than $1 worth of hard plastic being sold to you for 4900% what it's worth.
It's less than $1 worth of hard plastic being sold to you for 4900% what it's worth.
Now I hope even you can see how ridiculously stupid this argument is.
GW stuff is expensive, but you can't say that the quality of their plastic kits isn't amazing. No other company offers the same level of variety and detail on this scale.
McNinja wrote: It's less than $1 worth of hard plastic being sold to you for 4900% what it's worth.
I think $50 is kinda high for the commander, but at the price you're suggesting you'd just be buying a box of plastic pellets instead of a batltesuit. You'd be hard-pressed to find any product that's sold for the raw material cost.
It's less than $1 worth of hard plastic being sold to you for 4900% what it's worth.
Now I hope even you can see how ridiculously stupid this argument is.
GW stuff is expensive, but you can't say that the quality of their plastic kits isn't amazing. No other company offers the same level of variety and detail on this scale.
Dude I can buy a gundam model for $400 that is fully poseable, bigger than the new FW tau suit, and has actual fething electronics in it. The level of detail on those perfect-grade gundam models is amazing.
GW does make very nice models. That's all they have going for them. Their prices are too much, and at some point you have to realize that you simply are being ripped off.
It's less than $1 worth of hard plastic being sold to you for 4900% what it's worth.
Now I hope even you can see how ridiculously stupid this argument is.
GW stuff is expensive, but you can't say that the quality of their plastic kits isn't amazing. No other company offers the same level of variety and detail on this scale.
Dude I can buy a gundam model for $400 that is fully poseable, bigger than the new FW tau suit, and has actual fething electronics in it. The level of detail on those perfect-grade gundam models is amazing.
GW does make very nice models. That's all they have going for them. Their prices are too much, and at some point you have to realize that you simply are being ripped off.
$400? It cost $322, with free two day shipping.
You also forget the ~15" tall robot can also transform. And is snap together so it doesn't need glue. And is cast in the correct colors so you don't need to paint it.
Ya, so long as Bandai Japan and Gunpla exists, the best plastic miniatures will be solidly in the hands of Bandai.
Edit: I'll be honest, it is sad when I can buy a gold or silver plated Gundam model for less than a Riptide. I do enjoy 40k, but their business practice needs to be rebuilt, they simply haven't been investing in expanding the market. Gunpla can be sold closer to cost due to the fact it has a much bigger market so they don't need to squeeze their consumers to recoup their development cost. What GW is doing isn't acting like a good buisness, at best it is damage control. At worst it is holding off the enviable.
Ushtarador wrote: GW stuff is expensive, but you can't say that the quality of their plastic kits isn't amazing.
Actually I can. Sloppy fit between parts (good for letting kids assemble a kit without precise alignment, but it means lots of cleanup work to get it to look decent), large minimum feature sizes, questionable aesthetic choices (Taurox anyone?), use of "skulls per square inch" as a cheap substitute for real detail, etc. GW makes decent game pieces but they're really not that impressive. Take away the rules and the fluff behind those kits and hardly anyone would buy them.
No other company offers the same level of variety and detail on this scale.
But they really do. High-end historical model kits have far better detail at equal or lower prices. Take a look at what non-gaming companies do with injection-molded plastic and GW doesn't look nearly as impressive.
The truth is that GW is decent for the tabletop gaming niche, and even then they're nothing spectacular in terms of pure quality. Other companies have equal or better infantry, and GW's advantage in vehicle diversity is mostly due to the fact that vehicles don't work very well at 28mm scale from a rules perspective so few other companies are willing to invest in the big kits. This would be a fine approach if GW acknowledged that they sell game pieces for a tabletop game and focused on providing a decent gaming product at a competitive price, but that's not what they're doing.
McNinja wrote:
Unfortunately, no matter how amazing the commander kit is, you won't be getting your money's worth. It's less than $1 worth of hard plastic being sold to you for 4900% what it's worth.
Surely you can see how hyperbolic this statement is? Do you rate all things in your life based on the cost of raw materials?
McNinja wrote:
Dude I can buy a gundam model for $400 that is fully poseable, bigger than the new FW tau suit, and has actual fething electronics in it. The level of detail on those perfect-grade gundam models is amazing.
GW does make very nice models. That's all they have going for them. Their prices are too much, and at some point you have to realize that you simply are being ripped off.
Then buy Gundam models.
Look I understand criticism, and Games-Workshop certainly has opened themselves to many legitimate criticism. But with hyperbole and nonsense like this you only detract from legitimate concerns that the community has. I absolutely agree that GWs miniature are overpriced, but the comparisons you are making are ludicrous.
Bottom-line: if you want to buy Gundams, then go buy Gundams. They are great models, no one is stopping you, and if that is what makes you happy then knock yourself out.
I'm confident that your life is good enough that you have more entertaining things to do with your day than yell and scream about a company that you yourself claimed you don't support.
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angelofvengeance wrote: While this is a fascinating discussion, could we go back on topic to Tau N&R? The GW rants have been done to death and beyond already...
angelofvengeance wrote: While this is a fascinating discussion, could we go back on topic to Tau N&R? The GW rants have been done to death and beyond already...
The drone price is crazy and they better have all the options available - marker, shield, missile and gun... If that's not the case noone will buy that.
As for the rest of the prices, I still can't get why you don't receive a discount when buying a set of 3 crisis suits and so on. Seriously, even I would be inclined to order from GW then, but since that's not the case I hunt for second-hand unassembled minis or buy from retailers.
My rampant speculation about what the formations do:
Armoured Interdiction Cadre: Free markerlight hits, can put damage results off the skyray onto a hammerhead if you want.
- in addition taking the 3 hammerheads in a squadron will give them some kind of combined attack much like the predator/vindicator SM squadrons
Optimised Stealth Cadre: Ghostkeel can cover the stealth suits with its holophoton countermeasures, stealth suits get the double bonus to cover if they're within 6" of the Ghostkeel
Heavy Retribution Cadre: Stormsurges get free markerlight hits or Ignores Cover if their target is within a formation Ghostkeel's line of sight.
Other formations I expect to see:
Some kind of demi-company/Reclamation Legion equivalent with the standard 2-4 basic troops, 1-3 specialised troops, 0-3 more elite things, and some seemingly random addition made to boost lagging sales of the kit (most likely a piranha).
A flyer formation with 2 fighters and a bomber.
A kroot hunting pack (a selection of kroot warriors, kroot hounds, krootox, and shapers).
Overall formation benefits: Ability to consolidate d6" back in the assault phase for all units (obvs jet pack units have an inherently better version of this standard), maybe something to do with markerlights.
I fielded the Ghostkeel XV95 suits in a game vs CSM last night. His list was a pretty well rounded one, but as a result lacked focus. The Ghostkeels performed as you might expect them to - their ridiculous cover save kept him from even attempting to fire at them, except once. The ion rakers peppered his T3 cultists and AV12 walkers, with fusion blasters mopping up. I like having the drones in the unit - they dont' do anything in the shooting phase, but the added footprint allowed me to chain the unit towards an objective, while still leaving my ghostkeels in position to fire before the assault thrust. The unit cost 320 points after upgrades (TL fusion blaster, stims, and VRTs), but i feel it was well worth the points given it's survivability and damage output. Based on strictly the 1 game i've played, i'd rate it an overall 8/10.
My rampant speculation: Phil Kelly wrote some new codex sections where Farsight and Shadowsun grudgingly work together to take the Purtide brain recording to a Necron tomb world and implant it into a C'Tan the Necrons had captured in a stasis machine. They resurrect Puretide as the new LOW choice, becoming BFFs along the way.
mazik765 wrote: I love reading this thread because it seems every page it flips from "tau are op because of the tidelwall!" to "tau are useless because 80pt devilfish!". Make up your mind
Pfft. Every unit should is too cheap unless I'm fielding them, in which case they are all way overcosted. =]
Reminds me of an OLD essay post I wrote on the GW Games Dev forum back in the day entitled "All armies I don't play are unfair".
maceria wrote: My rampant speculation: Phil Kelly wrote some new codex sections where Farsight and Shadowsun grudgingly work together to take the Purtide brain recording to a Necron tomb world and implant it into a C'Tan the Necrons had captured in a stasis machine. They resurrect Puretide as the new LOW choice, becoming BFFs along the way.
maceria wrote: My rampant speculation: Phil Kelly wrote some new codex sections where Farsight and Shadowsun grudgingly work together to take the Purtide brain recording to a Necron tomb world and implant it into a C'Tan the Necrons had captured in a stasis machine. They resurrect Puretide as the new LOW choice, becoming BFFs along the way.
I think you're confusing Kelly and Ward there.
No, Wards stuff was too crazy... valuable for the codex. It will be in a 12 page standalone supplement adding one formation bonus and costing roughly $75USD.
By guess work the HQ is an etherial, slite is stealth suits (shas'ui and 'vre) Strum is troops, being pathfinders and a unique (possibly?) shas'ui (could mean a permanant move to trrops, could mean just for the set). Fahrzeuge is fast attack, being a "tireless hunter" which is an awesome name for a pirhana, I'm calling them that from no one. "Unermüdlicher Jaeger" The weapons are, in order, burst cannon, fusion blaster, iron rifle, rail rifle, and pulse carbine. And then the melee weapon, an honor blade. Nothing different, as afar as I can see..
I really wish I had paid more attention in German. Still looks like 2 markerlights = ignore cover. And piranhas bumped to bs 4!! Wonder if the devil fish gets the same treatment
Piranhas bs4? Thats odd. Wonder if theyre getting new weapon options or something. Right now theyre just bursts for cheap or fusions for a somewhat hefty price. My piranhas almost never use their full BS because theyre my mobile wall - theyre perma jinking trying to piss my opponent off and slow down charges.
Not going to lie it would be kinda funny to slap on some airbursters to a piranha lol
maceria wrote: My rampant speculation: Phil Kelly wrote some new codex sections where Farsight and Shadowsun grudgingly work together to take the Purtide brain recording to a Necron tomb world and implant it into a C'Tan the Necrons had captured in a stasis machine. They resurrect Puretide as the new LOW choice, becoming BFFs along the way.
I think you're confusing Kelly and Ward there.
I both know,respect, and like both of those people...but you're fooling yourself if you believe one is significantly better than the other in a truly objective sense. If you knew how the sausage was made, you'd know that having your name on a codex means far less than you think... and that is not meant to belittle their work. the process is a collective effort and much of the decision making is heavily influenced from outside the hands of the GD team.
maceria wrote: My rampant speculation: Phil Kelly wrote some new codex sections where Farsight and Shadowsun grudgingly work together to take the Purtide brain recording to a Necron tomb world and implant it into a C'Tan the Necrons had captured in a stasis machine. They resurrect Puretide as the new LOW choice, becoming BFFs along the way.
I think you're confusing Kelly and Ward there.
I both know,respect, and like both of those people...but you're fooling yourself if you believe one is significantly better than the other in a truly objective sense. If you knew how the sausage was made, you'd know that having your name on a codex means far less than you think... and that is not meant to belittle their work. the process is a collective effort and much of the decision making is heavily influenced from outside the hands of the GD team.
Also, lots of not-OP or not-garbage units, and taking something thematic (fish names) and slapping it everywhere (FISHY FISHY OCEAN!) are both very common in Kelly codex.
ive never been a fan of the fusion because piranhas arent that hard to remove if you really want to remove them, and a fusion not only adds extra price (also why i never put dpods on them) but a level of threat to make those anti-tank shots worth it.
I like keeping them dirt cheap. Theyre just strong enough where troops cant shoot it, forcing either multiple assaults or waste your heavy guns to remove them instead of my tanks / suits.
Same token, 5 bursts is enough dakka to cause some pain if you try to ignore them.
I never said one was better than the other, its just that what he wrote was based on the whole 'Necrons/BAs are BFFs' joke (which is hyperbole of the actual background) which was a Ward thing, not a Kelly thing. And by that I mean the person the joke is attributed to, not necessarily the person who actually came up with the idea. Ward's name was on the cover so it was attributed to him. Which is almost 100% why they stopped putting individual names on it.
maceria wrote: My rampant speculation: Phil Kelly wrote some new codex sections where Farsight and Shadowsun grudgingly work together to take the Purtide brain recording to a Necron tomb world and implant it into a C'Tan the Necrons had captured in a stasis machine. They resurrect Puretide as the new LOW choice, becoming BFFs along the way.
I think you're confusing Kelly and Ward there.
I both know,respect, and like both of those people...but you're fooling yourself if you believe one is significantly better than the other in a truly objective sense. If you knew how the sausage was made, you'd know that having your name on a codex means far less than you think... and that is not meant to belittle their work. the process is a collective effort and much of the decision making is heavily influenced from outside the hands of the GD team.
... If the design team doesn't completely design, wtf is the point?
Pathfinder Team Aurora have Relentless and Ignor cover from what I can tell (though am unsure if it is Ignore cover or move through cover without seeing the previous german naming conventions of USR rules)
This Pathfinder team is ALSO a 10 man unit, continuing the Breacher trend of seeing Tau Infantry units converting to decimal Rank and Org systems.
Nothing spectacular there. Looks like Markerlights stayed exactly as they were.
The one potentially big change is a huge nerf to Supporting Fire, although we can almost certainly be sure that that's due to a bad translation mistake. (German wording says that Supporting Fire can be used by units within 6" of the charging unit)
maceria wrote: My rampant speculation: Phil Kelly wrote some new codex sections where Farsight and Shadowsun grudgingly work together to take the Purtide brain recording to a Necron tomb world and implant it into a C'Tan the Necrons had captured in a stasis machine. They resurrect Puretide as the new LOW choice, becoming BFFs along the way.
I think you're confusing Kelly and Ward there.
I both know,respect, and like both of those people...but you're fooling yourself if you believe one is significantly better than the other in a truly objective sense. If you knew how the sausage was made, you'd know that having your name on a codex means far less than you think... and that is not meant to belittle their work. the process is a collective effort and much of the decision making is heavily influenced from outside the hands of the GD team.
... If the design team doesn't completely design, wtf is the point?
Design is what they do, but the business gets to design parameters that define how they work in a Design Brief.
External influences-
The business then also sets the number of new things that can/must be added.
The business then also can affect theme (and deriving canon derivations)
The business then can also affect the timescape and placement of release.
Internally-
The GD teams have checks and balances in their office to mitigate these things to a degree, but the GD group never has absolute authority on the final product...
Nearly alll staff participate in every product in some fashion as well.
I know one of Ward's books I was lucky to work on got delayed 2 quarters because it did not meet external influence requirements and the final concept was significantly changed from the initial, thumping Ward's career there in the process. He took a professional beating from what the gaming enthusiast's perspective would have been fine, possibly preferred.
That is not to say the individual doesn't have some influence. ( Somethings like the Sanguinor can never be forgiven ), but the internet strongly exaggerates the praise and condemnations the GD individuals individually deserve for any individual project.
That has to be a translation error. 6" of the charging unit pretty much will never happen unless the opponent is an idiot and put his unit right in between your 2/3 units.
Vineheart01 wrote: That has to be a translation error. 6" of the charging unit pretty much will never happen unless the opponent is an idiot and put his unit right in between your 2/3 units.
Vineheart01 wrote: That has to be a translation error. 6" of the charging unit pretty much will never happen unless the opponent is an idiot and put his unit right in between your 2/3 units.
You sure it's not "6" of the unit being charged"?
Its says any unit within 6" of the 'angreifenden' unit, which means attacking.
derling wrote: Pathfinder Team Aurora have Relentless and Ignor cover from what I can tell (though am unsure if it is Ignore cover or move through cover without seeing the previous german naming conventions of USR rules)
This Pathfinder team is ALSO a 10 man unit, continuing the Breacher trend of seeing Tau Infantry units converting to decimal Rank and Org systems.
Both the special rules are for the Shas'Ui only, and the first translates as 'Unyielding', which I thought meant Stubborn, especially as the Ethereal grants them the same ability.
Vineheart01 wrote: Thats why i said it has to be a translation error.
That makes no sense. If it was 12" of the charging unit, bit more understandable. 6"? dafuq?
How different is the German word for 'attacked', rather than 'attacking'? Might be as simple as that.
Dr. Delorean wrote: and the first translates as 'Unyielding', which I thought meant Stubborn, especially as the Ethereal grants them the same ability.
Ooh, I bet you're right! The translation dictionary had both unyielding and Unrelenting and my brain locked onto the second one.... and the german codex translation game is new to me.
Dr. Delorean wrote: and the first translates as 'Unyielding', which I thought meant Stubborn, especially as the Ethereal grants them the same ability.
Ooh, I bet you're right! The translation dictionary had both unyielding and Unrelenting and my brain locked onto the second one.... and the german codex translation game is new to me.
German translation is new to me too , currently I'm relying on Google.
I'd much prefer it be Relentless though, they could move and shoot their rail rifles that way, and an Ethereal could make Broadsides move and fire
Vineheart01 wrote: Thats why i said it has to be a translation error.
That makes no sense. If it was 12" of the charging unit, bit more understandable. 6"? dafuq?
How different is the German word for 'attacked', rather than 'attacking'? Might be as simple as that.
Quite different: 'angreifenden' is 'attacker' and 'angegriffen' is 'attacked'.
Vineheart01 wrote: Thats why i said it has to be a translation error.
That makes no sense. If it was 12" of the charging unit, bit more understandable. 6"? dafuq?
How different is the German word for 'attacked', rather than 'attacking'? Might be as simple as that.
Quite different: 'angreifenden' is 'attacker' and 'angegriffen' is 'attacked'.
Could "the attacking unit" be referring to the one firing overwatch?
I'll wait for the english version before jumping on final conclusions. But we can see some differences:
Aun'Do has +1W and a 5+ armour save
Pulse Accelerator Drone has BS3. Curious, since it doesn't possess weapons
Blacksun Filter remains the same
Markerlight column is missing the Seeker interaction, but as the special Piranha cannot buy those, it's understandable
Pathfinder team MUST be 6 carbines+ML (including the 'ui), 1 with Ion Rifle, 2 with Rail Rifle and the 3 special drones. They already come with Bonding Knife Ritual
Stealth suit must come with a marker drone, and the 'ui must have the fusion blaster. They already come with Bonding Knife Ritual
Incantation of Elements seems similar to the actual one
Is it just me, or did prices go up? 125 for a stealth team with fusion blaster and marker light drone; 117 under the old codex (+5 FB, +10 Sha'vre, +12 Drone).
vitae_drinker wrote: Is it just me, or did prices go up? 125 for a stealth team with fusion blaster and marker light drone; 117 under the old codex (+5 FB, +10 Sha'vre, +12 Drone).
55 for a Piranha with FB? 50 in the old codex.
Could be I'm missing something, though.
Yes, was 50 for a Piranha with FB in the old codex, but the new one also has a BS4 vs BS3 in the old codex.
vitae_drinker wrote: Is it just me, or did prices go up? 125 for a stealth team with fusion blaster and marker light drone; 117 under the old codex (+5 FB, +10 Sha'vre, +12 Drone).
55 for a Piranha with FB? 50 in the old codex.
Could be I'm missing something, though.
Yes, was 50 for a Piranha with FB in the old codex, but the new one also has a BS4 vs BS3 in the old codex.
Okay, Piranha seems relatively unchanged. However, doesn't explain the price bump on Stealth teams and Pathfinders.
Hmmmm I don't know. Deathstorm and Stormclaw both had special unique character and rules or stat line higher than regular. The cost was the same as in the codex released 1 week after.
So there is a chance price have gone up but vanilla stat will be the same. So they might have been nerf or they have support systems or...
vitae_drinker wrote: Is it just me, or did prices go up? 125 for a stealth team with fusion blaster and marker light drone; 117 under the old codex (+5 FB, +10 Sha'vre, +12 Drone).
55 for a Piranha with FB? 50 in the old codex.
Could be I'm missing something, though.
Everything's got the Bonding Knife Ritual upgrade as well, so keep that in mind. I've got the Stealth Team at 120 with current costs, but they also have the 'Precise Shots' special rule alongside their regular Infiltrate.
Precise Shots = Precision Shot, I assume. Not actually too bad with burst cannons, rolling a 6 with a fusion blaster would be hilarious though.
So they're reusing the "old" cover? Don't get me wrong as I like that cover but if you're fething charging $50 for a "new" book that largely reshashes the old to replace one that is just two years old then at least fething pay an artist to make a new cover. Not to mention the confusion this will ADD to second hand sales (that they admittedly don't give a rat's ass about). It's hard enough to get folks to notice that they're not buying a current version of the Dark Angel codex but rather the two year old "replaced" version that looks similar but has a different marine on the cover let alone a codex that reuses the same cover as the book it replaces.
Ehh, they only visual difference between tau males and females is a Y instead of a l on the head. Alien girls won't look pretty to us, and tau won't care about looks.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Ehh, they only visual difference between tau males and females is a Y instead of a l on the head. Alien girls won't look pretty to us, and tau won't care about looks.
Indeed. Folks need to get out of the Star Trek mindset that all alien "females" should look like strippers dressed in a nightie with $15 of off the shelf makup kit at a halloween party.
Heh... I like how GW tries to counter the "Tau women are cute+pretty animu chicks" thing by making every Tau woman ugly like hell .
It actually makes sense that aliens don't meet human standards for attractive qualities. Though I'm not sure if this is intentional or just bad modeling/art.
Dr. Delorean wrote:
German translation is new to me too , currently I'm relying on Google.
I'd much prefer it be Relentless though, they could move and shoot their rail rifles that way, and an Ethereal could make Broadsides move and fire
Rail Rifles are Rapid Fire. Relentless would help them... dare I say it... CHARGE an enemy after firing at them!
On the other hand, Relentless is very good for Pathfinders. mobile markerlights are nice.
vitae_drinker wrote:240 for a 10 man pathfinder team and three drones?!? Great googly moogly!
I hope these guys get a helluva lot of special rules. I'm not keen on spending a Y'vahra for pathfinders
vitae_drinker wrote: 240 for a 10 man pathfinder team and three drones?!? Great googly moogly!
Point Cost-wise,that's only 12 points over a current codex unit of similar build without 2 bonus USRs,and one unique special rule. (Though Ignore Cover purely for Starshroud's Pulse Carbine is only nominally useful)
there is an additional cost in squad build flexibility...but this again seems about right.
One thing concerns me - none of the WD leaks show a Tau variant of the Decurion/Gladius Strike Force, as far as I know all of the previous WDs have had that previewed.
They wouldn't abandon the pattern now, would they?
Dr. Delorean wrote: One thing concerns me - none of the WD leaks show a Tau variant of the Decurion/Gladius Strike Force, as far as I know all of the previous WDs have had that previewed.
They wouldn't abandon the pattern now, would they?
They won't.
Apparently the Elemental Invocations are the same? Hello Storm of Fire Stormsurges
Okay regarding the recycled Codex cover, wow that's a new thing
This Codex is officially an updated book - basicall 6.5. Also the Campaign book contais all the new stuff for Tau, so if you have the old Tau Codex you can skip the new Codex and just buy the campaign book - I'm not kidding you. These are Games Workshops words in the item description.
The Tau detachmant is called Hunter Contingent and there are nine formations in the Codex/campaign book.
At least two of the Warlord Traits are the same, too.
The SC Ethereal has Exemplar of the Selfless Cause (combine with a Tidewall for shenanigans), and the example Datacard has Precision of the Skilled Hunter.
Warhams-77 wrote: Okay regarding the recycled Codex cover, wow that's a new thing
This Codex is officially an updated book - basicall 6.5. Also the Campaign book contais all the new stuff for Tau, so if you have the old Tau Codex you can skip the new Codex and just buy the campaign book - I'm not kidding you. These are Games Workshops words in the item description.
The Tau detachmant is called Hunter Contingent and there are nine formations in the Codex/campaign book.
Good old GW laziness. "Instead of fixing or improving the army, let's just sell people the same book but with a couple new pages. Brilliant!"
Warhams-77 wrote: Okay regarding the recycled Codex cover, wow that's a new thing
This Codex is officially an updated book - basicall 6.5. Also the Campaign book contais all the new stuff for Tau, so if you have the old Tau Codex you can skip the new Codex and just buy the campaign book - I'm not kidding you. These are Games Workshops words in the item description.
The Tau detachmant is called Hunter Contingent and there are nine formations in the Codex/campaign book.
So the Hunter Contingent and the accompanying 9 formations are included in both the Codex and the Campaign book?
So effectively we'll know everything about the new Tau this weekend when the campaign box is released and can be used?
The campaign boxes have not much to do with the new two-book Kauyon set This set is going preorder at the same date as the Codex/LE Codex. The description of the Codex says - word for word - If you already own the former Tau Codex the Campaign book will provide all the new rules. But it is pretty vague what that means. Better wait for the final judgement when we know what the english text says about the formations. From the german text only it clearly means ALL the new stuff except the updated fluff, uniform guides and other non-rule information is in the Campaign book set as well.
vitae_drinker wrote: 240 for a 10 man pathfinder team and three drones?!? Great googly moogly!
Point Cost-wise,that's only 12 points over a current codex unit of similar build without 2 bonus USRs,and one unique special rule. (Though Ignore Cover purely for Starshroud's Pulse Carbine is only nominally useful)
there is an additional cost in squad build flexibility...but this again seems about right.
Check my math here, just to be on the safe side...
10 Pathfinder w/ Shas'ui & Bonding knives= 130
3 Drones = 58
2 Rail Rifles & 1 Ion = 40
So 12 points (ish) for starshroud on top of that?
I just never played that buffed out of a pathfinder team. Lol
Warhams-77 wrote: Okay regarding the recycled Codex cover, wow that's a new thing
This Codex is officially an updated book - basicall 6.5. Also the Campaign book contais all the new stuff for Tau, so if you have the old Tau Codex you can skip the new Codex and just buy the campaign book - I'm not kidding you. These are Games Workshops words in the item description.
The Tau detachmant is called Hunter Contingent and there are nine formations in the Codex/campaign book.
Warhams-77 wrote: The campaign boxes have not much to do with the new two-book Kauyon set This set is going preorder at the same date as the Codex/LE Codex. The description of the Codex says - word for word - If you already own the former Tau Codex the Campaign book will provide all the new rules. But it is pretty vague what that means. Better wait for the final judgement when we know what the english text says about the formations. From the german text only it clearly means ALL the new stuff except the updated fluff, uniform guides and other non-rule information is in the Campaign book set as well.
Sounds a lot like the Edition 3.5 books.
So the campaign book with the updated info is the Kauyon one which goes up for pre-order this Saturday, and -not- the 32pg booklet that accompanies the Burning Dawn box set?
I'm not sure how to feel about this, though being able to keep all the Farsight Enclave stuff is pleasing.
vitae_drinker wrote: Ah, seems they have a special character in the Pathfinders that may explain the massive difference.
There's not really a huge difference compared to what Pathfinders are now.
A 10 man Pathfinder Squad with a Shas'ui, all three of its unique Drones, an Ion Rifle, 2x Rail Rifles comes in at 218 points. Add Bonding Knife and EMP Grenades you end up at 248 points.
So the Coldstar and the XV8 suit for the commander kit have different jetpacks. CS with the almost-a-Tetra-thruster and XV8 with the normal XV8 thrusters
Warhams-77 wrote:
The Tau detachmant is called Hunter Contingent and there are nine formations in the Codex/campaign book.
9... doesn't sound to be too many.
Necrons: 8 standalone, 11 within Decurion
Eldar: 8 standalone, 13 within Warhost
Space Marines: 12 standalone and within Gladius Strike Force
Dark Angels: 6 standalone, 8 within Lion's Blade
Warhams-77 wrote: The campaign boxes have not much to do with the new two-book Kauyon set This set is going preorder at the same date as the Codex/LE Codex. The description of the Codex says - word for word - If you already own the former Tau Codex the Campaign book will provide all the new rules. But it is pretty vague what that means. Better wait for the final judgement when we know what the english text says about the formations. From the german text only it clearly means ALL the new stuff except the updated fluff, uniform guides and other non-rule information is in the Campaign book set as well.
Sounds a lot like the Edition 3.5 books.
So the campaign book with the updated info is the Kauyon one which goes up for pre-order this Saturday, and -not- the 32pg booklet that accompanies the Burning Dawn box set?
I'm not sure how to feel about this, though being able to keep all the Farsight Enclave stuff is pleasing.
Man, I gave away a copy of the 6th edition codex last weekend.
Warhams-77 wrote:
The Tau detachmant is called Hunter Contingent and there are nine formations in the Codex/campaign book.
9... doesn't sound to be too many.
Necrons: 8 standalone, 11 within Decurion
Eldar: 8 standalone, 13 within Warhost
Space Marines: 12 standalone and within Gladius Strike Force
Dark Angels: 6 standalone, 8 within Lion's Blade
More than DA, less than the rest
The ones you're counting as within the Decurion and Warhost but not as standalone aren't formations, they're just ways to take models within the Detachment. For Necrons, it's Flayed Ones, Deathmarks, and C'Tan. They get nothing except the ability to be part of the Decurion (and the 4+ RP bonus that comes with that). I think it's the same for Eldar and DA as well.
By that, there'll probably be 9 Formations and then the ability to take some non-formation stuff in the Hunter Contingent as well.
Tau are effectively getting the same treatment that Tyranids did last year (new units, a few bonuses in a campaign book) + a reprinted codex with the new units, some new formations, and new art... but, effectively, no "real" updates?
Tau are effectively getting the same treatment that Tyranids did last year (new units, a few bonuses in a campaign book) + a reprinted codex with the new units, some new formations, and new art... but, effectively, no "real" updates?
That can't possibly be right... can it?
Can't it?
Tau are a pretty solid book as they stand right now. Why fix what ain't broken?
No, the rules get updated. The piranha e.g. got BS4 if the stats in the mini-scenario book are correct. There are updates. But these can be found - according to the next White Dwarf - in several sources.
So, do not throw away your current Tau codex. Also the new Codex is using the new Datasheet format like all the books since mid 2014.
Warhams-77 wrote:
The Tau detachmant is called Hunter Contingent and there are nine formations in the Codex/campaign book.
9... doesn't sound to be too many.
Necrons: 8 standalone, 11 within Decurion
Eldar: 8 standalone, 13 within Warhost
Space Marines: 12 standalone and within Gladius Strike Force
Dark Angels: 6 standalone, 8 within Lion's Blade
More than DA, less than the rest
Not everything in the Decurion is a formation. Star-God, Flayed Ones and Deathmarks are just units and not formations.
vitae_drinker wrote: Ah, seems they have a special character in the Pathfinders that may explain the massive difference.
There's not really a huge difference compared to what Pathfinders are now.
A 10 man Pathfinder Squad with a Shas'ui, all three of its unique Drones, an Ion Rifle, 2x Rail Rifles comes in at 218 points. Add Bonding Knife and EMP Grenades you end up at 248 points.
The Aurora Unit doesn't have EMP grenades, but the Shas'ui upgrade (10pts) brings the total to 228 for a squad currently.
the "Special Unique Rule" Unterstutzungsfeur is actually "Support Fire" so really the Aurora teams has a locked Maxed Pathfinder Unit structure in exchange for:
-12 pts
-Probably Stubborn USR -Ignore Cover for the Shas'ui's carbine.
Still probably ok? I'd be unlikely to field it...but someone else may dig it.
Warhams-77 wrote:
The Tau detachmant is called Hunter Contingent and there are nine formations in the Codex/campaign book.
9... doesn't sound to be too many.
Necrons: 8 standalone, 11 within Decurion
Eldar: 8 standalone, 13 within Warhost
Space Marines: 12 standalone and within Gladius Strike Force
Dark Angels: 6 standalone, 8 within Lion's Blade
More than DA, less than the rest
Not everything in the Decurion is a formation. Star-God, Flayed Ones and Deathmarks are just units and not formations.
Correct, some things are Auxiliary/Command choices, but NOT individual Formations that can be taken independently.
Tau are effectively getting the same treatment that Tyranids did last year (new units, a few bonuses in a campaign book) + a reprinted codex with the new units, some new formations, and new art... but, effectively, no "real" updates?
That can't possibly be right... can it?
It's like this: The Campaign book is basically a big FAQ. If you have a current codex, any changes to units, models, weapons, special rules, etc will be in the campaign book and you can reference any unchanged models from the original Codex.
Or, you can buy the new Codex and have all of that in one place instead of referencing two books.
So, you either spend $60 to have the new format dex, but miss out on the campaign, or you spend $90 to have all of the new content, but have to stick with the old format dex?
Actually seems like a better move for the consumer on GW's part. I mean really all codexes are just minor FAQ's with a bit of new stuff so this time you can either keep the original book and get the campaign book if campaigns matter to you or you can just get the new updated codex. Kinda nice actually compared to how this normally works.
GW finally found a way to get people to pay for FAQs!
They already do it. It's called every new codex ever....
I don't know man. 4e Tau to 6e Tau was a pretty big change. Other Codex often the same.
Tyranids basically got a faq, but it was called a new codex.
What's different here is that they are -- allegedly -- LITERALLY TELLING YOU YOU DON'T NEED TO BUY THE BOOK.
GW, saying you don't need to buy something.
As long as the campaign book isn't absurdly expensive, this could take off. They could go two directions. Either making rules updates free, or making every little update, entry, USR, wargear, and dataslate a new, costed, item.
Campaign set is $74 and the Codex is $49.50. So for $24 and using two books for reference you can avoid purchasing the new codex if you like campaigns. I, personally, like this route. As I much rather have campaign material than another codex that doesn't expand the background or universe or does so minimally.
Tau are a pretty solid book as they stand right now. Why fix what ain't broken?
It just seems like a huge slap in the face to Tau players. The three in my club are pretty much blind with rage at the moment.
Change is constant. The wise adapt.
40k is not the right game fro anyone who expects to (a) buy a book and play it for years and years or (b) buy some models and play those for years and years -- unless you have a closed group that is happy with playing with old models/books. The fans GW target are the ones that get all excited that they are getting new models and a new book to their existing faction. And a lot of us may bash power creep, but at the same time, people generally get excited when there are new units that are big and powerful or do cool, new things. When new units don't, they're "meh".
Hulksmash wrote: Campaign set is $74 and the Codex is $49.50. So for $24 and using two books for reference you can avoid purchasing the new codex if you like campaigns. I, personally, like this route. As I much rather have campaign material than another codex that doesn't expand the background or universe or does so minimally.
Yeah, the problem with that though is that the campaign box is already sold out. there goes your plan .
This is not the campaign box with miniatures that is sold out in GWs online store but a separate book (a two book-set actually, similiar to Shield of Baal Leviathan)
Personally, I think they should go the old D&D route: a set of core books that are good for like, a decade. Add campaigns, and modules, and such, for not too much. Current climate, maybe $20USD for the campaign books I've seen. Cheaper if you print them on cheap material, have spots to fill things in, and make them disposable.
Looks like I may have to start work on the Grimdark Palace of the Silver Space Princess.
Tau are a pretty solid book as they stand right now. Why fix what ain't broken?
It just seems like a huge slap in the face to Tau players. The three in my club are pretty much blind with rage at the moment.
Change is constant. The wise adapt.
40k is not the right game fro anyone who expects to (a) buy a book and play it for years and years or (b) buy some models and play those for years and years -- unless you have a closed group that is happy with playing with old models/books. The fans GW target are the ones that get all excited that they are getting new models and a new book to their existing faction. And a lot of us may bash power creep, but at the same time, people generally get excited when there are new units that are big and powerful or do cool, new things. When new units don't, they're "meh".
I think their issue, is mainly that the last few codices saw some pretty significant changes to the units inside, in addition to the boost from the new mega formations, and they're feeling like they're getting left out in the cold. They all like the new Ghostkeel, but not a single one is even considering the Stormsurge, so, in their minds, this whole release is coming down to a single new model, and some formations. I think this is a case where they really were hoping for some power creep!
Book set that's been shown and with it's price of $74. Not the miniature set.
@Vineheart01
It's $74. Basically half again as much for the campaign set. Which makes it a decent deal. But yes, it is cheaper to just buy the codex.
@Broken Record
What book recently had significant changes to the units? SM & DA both got basically a Decurion added and some unit moves around or the ability to squadron. All is easily added in a campaign supplement/FAQ. Necrons didn't see to much of a difference on a unit basis either. Eldar was again the exception, not the rule.
That said I'm not sure this is actually factual. Because you're talking about maelstrom, army wide rules, new drones and upgrades for units, new units, super formation detachment, and new formations. While it might be possible to play without buying the new book with the new campaign book I don't think it's super easy.
What book recently had significant changes to the units? SM & DA both got basically a Decurion added and some unit moves around or the ability to squadron. All is easily added in a campaign supplement/FAQ. Necrons didn't see to much of a difference on a unit basis either. Eldar was again the exception, not the rule.
That said I'm not sure this is actually factual. Because you're talking about maelstrom, army wide rules, new drones and upgrades for units, new units, super formation detachment, and new formations. While it might be possible to play without buying the new book with the new campaign book I don't think it's super easy.
I'm thinking along the lines of the major changes to Chapter Tactics, Reanimation Protocols, Grim Resolve, and the various (minor, but still real) changes to some of the unit stats. Eldar was definitely a fluke, both in terms of "raw" power level, and amount of content changes, but the way I'm reading there rumors is that Tau are just getting a little stat change for a few models, the new units, and the formations, with no real rules changes; which would be a lot less that the previous codices. I'm really hoping I'm misunderstanding, or the rumors are off!
Hell, if they get vehicle squadron bonuses, and a few point adjustments, that'd would be enough, in my book!
Perhaps this is all just my residual butt-hurt from my two codices being total donkey balls! I've certainly been known to start complaining at the drop of a hat!
What book recently had significant changes to the units? SM & DA both got basically a Decurion added and some unit moves around or the ability to squadron. All is easily added in a campaign supplement/FAQ. Necrons didn't see to much of a difference on a unit basis either. Eldar was again the exception, not the rule.
That said I'm not sure this is actually factual. Because you're talking about maelstrom, army wide rules, new drones and upgrades for units, new units, super formation detachment, and new formations. While it might be possible to play without buying the new book with the new campaign book I don't think it's super easy.
I'm thinking along the lines of the major changes to Chapter Tactics, Reanimation Protocols, Grim Resolve, and the various (minor, but still real) changes to some of the unit stats. Eldar was definitely a fluke, both in terms of "raw" power level, and amount of content changes, but the way I'm reading there rumors is that Tau are just getting a little stat change for a few models, the new units, and the formations, with no real rules changes; which would be a lot less that the previous codices. I'm really hoping I'm misunderstanding, or the rumors are off, though! Hell, if they get vehicle squadron bonuses, and a few point adjustments, that'd would be enough, in my book!
Perhaps this is all just my residual butt-hurt from my two codices being total donkey balls! I've certainly been known to start complaining at the drop of a hat!
Buddy, it says right there on the codex description page that the Tau are getting a brand new Hunter Contingent on top of the Formations...
Hulksmash wrote: Actually seems like a better move for the consumer on GW's part. I mean really all codexes are just minor FAQ's with a bit of new stuff so this time you can either keep the original book and get the campaign book if campaigns matter to you or you can just get the new updated codex. Kinda nice actually compared to how this normally works.
...unless you're one of us who hate the current codex and hope a total rewrite :/
Hulksmash wrote: Actually seems like a better move for the consumer on GW's part. I mean really all codexes are just minor FAQ's with a bit of new stuff so this time you can either keep the original book and get the campaign book if campaigns matter to you or you can just get the new updated codex. Kinda nice actually compared to how this normally works.
...unless you're one of us who hate the current codex and hope a total rewrite :/
Then maybe you just want to play a different army?
What book recently had significant changes to the units? SM & DA both got basically a Decurion added and some unit moves around or the ability to squadron. All is easily added in a campaign supplement/FAQ. Necrons didn't see to much of a difference on a unit basis either. Eldar was again the exception, not the rule.
.
You must be kidding right? Both books had scout stat changes, altered chapter tactics across the board. They added squadrons of vehicles WITH special rules. New warlord traits, altered FOC slots thunderfires are units now, techmarines even gained a wound and BS........ Ravenwing got massivley buffed... Where on earth are you getting your info from?
Necrons had army wide alterations as well including stat alterations from at least 3 entries off the top of my head with TONS of special rules and gear changing. RP's also changed entirely, what on earth are you on about?
Then maybe you just want to play a different army?
Trading in countless hours and hundreds to thousands of dollars invested and just pick up another army to invest countless hours and hundreds to thousands of dollars in. That doesn't sound like a reasonable idea to me.
So, new campaign book is Shadowsuns revenge basically?
Wonder if Farsight will show up in the next part of the campaign. I mean its going to be titled Montka judging by the first book and the format of the GW campaign stuff.
...unless you're one of us who hate the current codex and hope a total rewrite :/
Then maybe you just want to play a different army?
Trading in countless hours and hundreds to thousands of dollars invested and just pick up another army to invest countless hours and hundreds to thousands of dollars in. That doesn't sound like a reasonable idea to me.
Is it any less reasonable than expecting the entire army to change because you don't like how it plays? If you dislike the entire book, then why spend your time on it, hoping that it's going to get a complete overhaul when history has shown that it almost never happens?
Any German buddies interested in clearing up the Raven Guard rules? They're by and far my favorite Loyalist chapter and if this actually makes them playable, I might start collecting them.
I told everyone the new codex was going to be bad. No one listened to me though.
Our only hope is those formation, and if they're just getting jettisoned into some side book with such little change I have very little hope.
Well the Tau are effectively being gutted. Thanks a lot whiners for making us not get any buffs to stay competitive. Now instead of hoping for everyone to be buffed to the same level as Eldar/Necrons/Marines your keeping some of the codices down here and some up there and some over there all at wildly different levels of balance.
Games Workshop. NEVER listen to your idiot fans again with an exception to confirmed competitive players. I liked you better that way.
I seen the proposed rules for the 1 Ghostkeel and 3 stealth suits formation? Sucks so bad.
Gamgee wrote: I told everyone the new codex was going to be bad. No one listened to me though.
Our only hope is those formation, and if they're just getting jettisoned into some side book with such little change I have very little hope.
Well the Tau are effectively being gutted. Thanks a lot whiners for making us not get any buffs to stay competitive. Now instead of hoping for everyone to be buffed to the same level as Eldar/Necrons/Marines your keeping some of the codices down here and some up there and some over there all at wildly different levels of balance.
Games Workshop. NEVER listen to your idiot fans again with an exception to confirmed competitive players. I liked you better that way.
I seen the proposed rules for the 1 Ghostkeel and 3 stealth suits formation? Sucks so bad.
Literally
what the hell are you talking about
Is this one of those satire things because if it is idgi
Gamgee wrote: I told everyone the new codex was going to be bad. No one listened to me though.
Our only hope is those formation, and if they're just getting jettisoned into some side book with such little change I have very little hope.
Well the Tau are effectively being gutted. Thanks a lot whiners for making us not get any buffs to stay competitive. Now instead of hoping for everyone to be buffed to the same level as Eldar/Necrons/Marines your keeping some of the codices down here and some up there and some over there all at wildly different levels of balance.
Games Workshop. NEVER listen to your idiot fans again with an exception to confirmed competitive players. I liked you better that way.
I seen the proposed rules for the 1 Ghostkeel and 3 stealth suits formation? Sucks so bad.
What book recently had significant changes to the units? SM & DA both got basically a Decurion added and some unit moves around or the ability to squadron. All is easily added in a campaign supplement/FAQ. Necrons didn't see to much of a difference on a unit basis either. Eldar was again the exception, not the rule.
.
You must be kidding right? Both books had scout stat changes, altered chapter tactics across the board. They added squadrons of vehicles WITH special rules. New warlord traits, altered FOC slots thunderfires are units now, techmarines even gained a wound and BS........ Ravenwing got massivley buffed... Where on earth are you getting your info from?
Necrons had army wide alterations as well including stat alterations from at least 3 entries off the top of my head with TONS of special rules and gear changing. RP's also changed entirely, what on earth are you on about?
So much anger. You kinda missed the next part where I doubt the validity because of the army wide changes that are likely to happen? As for the codexes though nothing in them was ground breaking. All of it could have been completed in a 1pg FAQ. Which was kinda my point on that but overall I doubt the validity of all changes being in the campaign and using the old codex because the sheer amount of minutia would make this unlikely.
Is it any less reasonable than expecting the entire army to change because you don't like how it plays?
This would actually have some weight as an argument if the style of how the army played hasn't changed from the 4th ed codex to the 6th. The new codex has less focus on mobility, removing Broadsides ability to move and shoot and vehicles ability to fire as a fast vehicle while also bringing in gun lines. This new fortification and the Stormsurge further this problem.
If you dislike the entire book, then why spend your time on it, hoping that it's going to get a complete overhaul when history has shown that it almost never happens?
Except things have been overhauled. Necrons in 5th. Grey Knights, then getting gutted into three different books.
Besides, what kind of argument is "It's been bad for a while so it defaults to good"?
If a complaint carries over from the previous codex, then it still stands as a complaint now. Ork players rightfully bemoan their inability to tackle heavy armor, which is something that was a problem in previous editions.
Well, it looks like from the Strike FireWarrior entry in the FW instruction Manual confirms the allowance of the DS8 Support drone in the regular FW teams.
..."Gutted"? What particular viscera did we lose, exactly? Weren't we a mid-upper tier codex to begin with?
I only see additions, and nothing taken away, from Fire Warriors (Strikers in the new nomenclature). The additions seems facially an improvement as well.
Same for the Commander, frankly. Same for every single unit from the previous codex that we've seen - additions, without any nerf or reduction in power.
Everything else we've seen is a formation-specific unit/model or a model that wasn't an option in the previous codex, and extrapolating from there seems speculative at best.
Gamgee wrote: I told everyone the new codex was going to be bad. No one listened to me though.
Our only hope is those formation, and if they're just getting jettisoned into some side book with such little change I have very little hope.
Well the Tau are effectively being gutted. Thanks a lot whiners for making us not get any buffs to stay competitive. Now instead of hoping for everyone to be buffed to the same level as Eldar/Necrons/Marines your keeping some of the codices down here and some up there and some over there all at wildly different levels of balance.
Games Workshop. NEVER listen to your idiot fans again with an exception to confirmed competitive players. I liked you better that way.
I seen the proposed rules for the 1 Ghostkeel and 3 stealth suits formation? Sucks so bad.
Is it any less reasonable than expecting the entire army to change because you don't like how it plays? If you dislike the entire book, then why spend your time on it, hoping that it's going to get a complete overhaul when history has shown that it almost never happens?
I haven't spent my time & money with the current book. I spent it all with the old book, and then the army was changed to parody of itself which I have zero desire to play anymore.
Sadly, it looks like the next book is going to be built over the Vetock codex. Well, the Tau was dead to me already so it's not like there's much to lose anymore.
Rough translation of the Pinion Company formation powers:
For every Scout squad and Scout Bike squad from this formation placed in reserve, choose another unit in the formation and place it in reserve as well. When the Scout/Scout Bike squad comes in from reserve, its partner unit comes in as well. If the Scout/Scout Bike squad uses Outflank, its partner unit does so as well, appearing on the same board edge, even if that unit can not normally Outflank. The partner unit has the Stealth special rule on the turn it enters the board, as long as it is placed within 9 inches of the partnered Scout unit.
In the shooting phase, every Scout Sergeant and Scout Veteran Sergeant in this formation can choose another unit from the formation within 9 inches. The weapons of the chosen unit have the Ignore Cover special rule until the end of the Shooting Phase.
The first Formation: Pinion
1 Captain or Chaplain ( Your normal Captain cannot take a Terminator Armor and some Special Characters are allowed to replace your normal Captain or Chaplain )
0-1 Command Squad
Looks like 3 or 5 Tactical Squads
1Assault Squad
1 Devastor Squad
1-3 or 5 Scout and/or Scout Bike Squads
Rules:
Lets Scouts in Reserve take another unit with them. When the Scouts deploy you can deploy the second unit within 9''.
Scouts can give another unit within 9'' "ignores cover".
The Second Formation: Shadowstrike
2-4 Scout Squads
1-3 or again 5 Vanquard Veteran Squads ( All of them have to take Jump Packs )
Rules
Vanguards in reserve can choose if they deploy or not.
Vanguards don't scatter if they deploy via deepstrike whithin 9'' of two Scout Squads of that formation
Vanguards can attack after they deployed via deepstrike
Sigh no field relay for strike team :(. At least they didnt made them worse, just no change at all to normal firewarriors (except being able to use the turrety thing).
I would expect the Kauyon book to basically be the same thing as Exterminatus was to Blood Angels. Hopefully with better execution though. If it has all the updated rules from the codex, I wouldn't mind the same thing happening to more armies (Blood Angels included).
Besides, what kind of argument is "It's been bad for a while so it defaults to good"?
If a complaint carries over from the previous codex, then it still stands as a complaint now. Ork players rightfully bemoan their inability to tackle heavy armor, which is something that was a problem in previous editions.
No one ever said that.
And Tau aren't bad. Riptides are crazy good. FSC is such a good formation that other armies take it. Fire Warriors are some of the best objective camping units in the game. Farsight Bomb still sees play. Tau may not be as flashy as Knights, Super Friends, or Eldar, but they still show up in competitive games and are a solid book on the whole.
The only people I ever see saying that Tau are weak are Tau players. Everyone else (aside from Eldar) generally considers them an even fight, if not more difficult.
Tau used to be roughly on par with Eldar in 6th edition. Then 7th hit, and some of the Tau tricks were nerfed, and the Eldar 7th book was made so much better that having Tau stay on roughly the same level as before, means a relative nerf compared to Eldar. And it doesn't help that at the same time FW has improved Eldar even more, and made Corsairs into what Dark Eldar would be if they were written by the same team that wrote Codex Eldar.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Tau used to be roughly on par with Eldar in 6th edition. Then 7th hit, and some of the Tau tricks were nerfed, and the Eldar 7th book was made so much better that having Tau stay on roughly the same level as before, means a relative nerf compared to Eldar. And it doesn't help that at the same time FW has improved Eldar even more, and made Corsairs into what Dark Eldar would be if they were written by the same team that wrote Codex Eldar.
Eldar is a bad measuring stick, its so far above everything else its silly.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Tau used to be roughly on par with Eldar in 6th edition. Then 7th hit, and some of the Tau tricks were nerfed, and the Eldar 7th book was made so much better that having Tau stay on roughly the same level as before, means a relative nerf compared to Eldar. And it doesn't help that at the same time FW has improved Eldar even more, and made Corsairs into what Dark Eldar would be if they were written by the same team that wrote Codex Eldar.
In 6th, it wasn't really Tau that were strong, it was that you could ally Eldar onto them and Taudar was freaking broken, because an army that's built around being strong without Psychic buffs suddenly getting Psychic buffs is going to be good. The things that worked in 6e vanilla Tau work in 7e vanilla Tau, for the most part.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Tau used to be roughly on par with Eldar in 6th edition. Then 7th hit, and some of the Tau tricks were nerfed, and the Eldar 7th book was made so much better that having Tau stay on roughly the same level as before, means a relative nerf compared to Eldar. And it doesn't help that at the same time FW has improved Eldar even more, and made Corsairs into what Dark Eldar would be if they were written by the same team that wrote Codex Eldar.
I don't want Tau to be on par with Eldar, because frankly this new codex of theirs is out of this world. Now, Necrons, SM and DA got some lovely buffs to many units, while Tau will remain with some new things (which do a lot of stuff other units already do) but hardly changes in units, as the WD seems to infer. That's not what Tau players were waiting - buffs to stuff like Kroot, Vespid and Stealth Suits, while nerfs to Riptides and Markerlight. At least we'll probably get vehicle squadrons - I hope.
Not being on par with the most OP book in the edition is totally ok. Not being on par with the most played faction, which has a very good book (SM)... that is a problem to my eyes.
Anyway, let's see what the codex and the Kauyon book really bring.
Easy way to not have to worry about the Eldar comparison is simply this: avoid them. Their army is the epitome of bs because they get so much crap out of nowhere that makes no sense for them to have. Their 7th ed book only made it worse.
Only eldar player in my area rarely gets games because everyone is sick and tired of that cheesy army. And thats even without wraith spam. Eldar need a nerfhammer hardcore, start with removing the Str D spam crap. Nothing needs to be brought to their level because their level puts a lot of forgeworld apoc crap to shame. Even said Eldar player i mentioned earlier doesnt like it.
The main power in 6th for Tau was the Taudar cheese strat, which was removed rightly so because that was bs. It cheaply removed the drawback of the Riptide and reliably too. Buffmander + Ovesa Star was so expensive it wasnt really that much of a boon, especially with the increasing ways to kill a riptide reliably.
Hawkeye888 wrote: Anyone else notice strike teams remain at 12 per unit, while breachers are 10.
great catch!
My two simultanious throught are:
1. Hooray, they Are keeping a semblance of the Tau unit organizational system!
AND
2. How stupid to have a difference in how the two types of FIRE WARRIORs use different squad sizes. (just now realizing that the old 4-8 Pathfinder units changed last edition to 4-10, already setting this (obviously Ordos Xenos) infiltration into the Tau empire via Decimal system....
Maybe the reason they switched squad sizes was because gw thinks we are to stupid to figure things like 25% casualties without a nice easy number to base it off of?
jimkurtjimmy wrote: Maybe the reason they switched squad sizes was because gw thinks we are to stupid to figure things like 25% casualties without a nice easy number to base it off of?
10 actually makes that worse.
25% of 12 = 3 models. Nice and easy.
25% of 10 = 2.5 models. Still 3 models, but now its fractional.
Lost count how many times ive pulled my phone out for a quick calc on that when playing my Orks lol. Tau units are all either 3s or 12s which are easy to remember (or alone)
jimkurtjimmy wrote: Maybe the reason they switched squad sizes was because gw thinks we are to stupid to figure things like 25% casualties without a nice easy number to base it off of?
10 actually makes that worse.
I'm guessing the OP meant their comment lightheartedly, but I thought the same thing!
Jokes on us though, because the new kit only builds 10 dudes, even though you can field 12 in a strike squad. Well played GW (not that I need any more firewarriors, but some people might).
MoD_Legion wrote: Jokes on us though, because the new kit only builds 10 dudes, even though you can field 12 in a strike squad. Well played GW (not that I need any more firewarriors, but some people might).
This has come up a lot, but realistically...
There's a "loose" Fire Warrior in the Devilfish APC/Hammerhead/Skyray boxes.
MoD_Legion wrote: Jokes on us though, because the new kit only builds 10 dudes, even though you can field 12 in a strike squad. Well played GW (not that I need any more firewarriors, but some people might).
Not the first time theyve done that.
Kroot come in squads of 20 before any hounds or krootox. Box gives you 16.
THATS annoying. You will always have excess Kroot until you have more kroot than you'd ever want to field. You need 5 boxes to be able to field all kroot in full squads and have no excess, thats 80 kroot!
MoD_Legion wrote: Jokes on us though, because the new kit only builds 10 dudes, even though you can field 12 in a strike squad. Well played GW (not that I need any more firewarriors, but some people might).
Damn, yeah, just looked at the sprues and there are only 10 torsos in the box. And I am not quite sure why there are 20 shoulder pads when they only get one. I can't tell if there are different sept markings on them or not.
Gamgee wrote: I told everyone the new codex was going to be bad. No one listened to me though.
Our only hope is those formation, and if they're just getting jettisoned into some side book with such little change I have very little hope.
Well the Tau are effectively being gutted. Thanks a lot whiners for making us not get any buffs to stay competitive. Now instead of hoping for everyone to be buffed to the same level as Eldar/Necrons/Marines your keeping some of the codices down here and some up there and some over there all at wildly different levels of balance.
Games Workshop. NEVER listen to your idiot fans again with an exception to confirmed competitive players. I liked you better that way.
I seen the proposed rules for the 1 Ghostkeel and 3 stealth suits formation? Sucks so bad.
Kroot come in squads of 20 before any hounds or krootox. Box gives you 16.
THATS annoying. You will always have excess Kroot until you have more kroot than you'd ever want to field. You need 5 boxes to be able to field all kroot in full squads and have no excess, thats 80 kroot!
Careful now. GW might just "fix" that by lowering that down to 10 Kroot per kit and charge you $50 for the new package.
The 20 pads/heads are because the breachers/strikers are different "models" to tell them apart. Original firewarriors look like they always have, which personally i like them (the molds just needed to be updated to get rid of the moldline crap to me). Breachers have the new helmets/shoulder pads.
Part of me hates that they put it all in there because now they can bump the price up even more and "justify" it. Then again, if they were separate, they'd probably be ~45USD anyway.
You can technically magnetize their arms/helmets but magnetizing things that small is usually a pain in the rear. Even magnetizing the thin side of a Fusion Blaster is a pain in the butt because its so easy to accidentally cut through the side of the model. I dont know anybody that magnetizes troop arms for this reason lol
Gamgee wrote: I told everyone the new codex was going to be bad. No one listened to me though.
Our only hope is those formation, and if they're just getting jettisoned into some side book with such little change I have very little hope.
Well the Tau are effectively being gutted. Thanks a lot whiners for making us not get any buffs to stay competitive. Now instead of hoping for everyone to be buffed to the same level as Eldar/Necrons/Marines your keeping some of the codices down here and some up there and some over there all at wildly different levels of balance.
Games Workshop. NEVER listen to your idiot fans again with an exception to confirmed competitive players. I liked you better that way.
I seen the proposed rules for the 1 Ghostkeel and 3 stealth suits formation? Sucks so bad.
Do you guys know there is a handy dandy ignore function on dakka, right? It might be best to use that instead of derailing the news and rumors thread into a "why userXXXXX shouldn't be allowed to post for the greater good!" thread. The inaugural member of my ignore thread from years ago posts in this thread and the ignore function really does work! If someone annoys you that much, just ignore them either in theory (don't respond) and/or in practice (the actual forum function).
I feel like it would have made more sense to simply make two kits, using the space the heads and pads take up now to fit in more arms/legs and thus requiring the same number of molds for sprues to be made thanks to intelligent bit allocation on each sprue.
It's just easier to sell a person two kits at 35$ as opposed to one for 50$.
warboss wrote: Do you guys know there is a handy dandy ignore function on dakka, right? It might be best to use that instead of derailing the news and rumors thread into a "why userXXXXX shouldn't be allowed to post for the greater good!" thread. The inaugural member of my ignore thread from years ago posts in this thread and the ignore function really does work! If someone annoys you that much, just ignore them either in theory (don't respond) and/or in practice (the actual forum function).
But mocking trolls is so much fun!
And believe me, he is on my ignore list. I just wanted to illustrate why people shouldn't take him seriously. Furthermore, in relation to the topic at hand, there are plenty of people spouting that the Tau have been "nerfed" without any convincing evidence. No confirmed codex leaks, no nothing. I'm just finding it a bit funny that people are freaking out when so little concrete information has been revealed so far.
warboss wrote: Do you guys know there is a handy dandy ignore function on dakka, right? It might be best to use that instead of derailing the news and rumors thread into a "why userXXXXX shouldn't be allowed to post for the greater good!" thread. The inaugural member of my ignore thread from years ago posts in this thread and the ignore function really does work! If someone annoys you that much, just ignore them either in theory (don't respond) and/or in practice (the actual forum function).
warboss wrote: Do you guys know there is a handy dandy ignore function on dakka, right? It might be best to use that instead of derailing the news and rumors thread into a "why userXXXXX shouldn't be allowed to post for the greater good!" thread. The inaugural member of my ignore thread from years ago posts in this thread and the ignore function really does work! If someone annoys you that much, just ignore them either in theory (don't respond) and/or in practice (the actual forum function).
VERY good advice there.
I'd suggest many start to follow it.
And keep this thread on topic and insult free.
Sorry.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Medium of Death wrote: While we all enjoy drinking delicious tears from time to time we should probably keep it on topic.
Hopefully some English language leaks will happen soon.
Has anybody else had further experience with the Stormsurge or Ghostkeel kits?
I've not seem much in P&M blogs.
When I actually have a spare moment to play around with the Stormsurge kit, I'm going to see if the spare dfish kit parts I've got on hand can cover up that mortar-bait cockpit. I've got some spare upper hulls, portions of which might do the trick.
I know there is a Tau Special Character Ethereal on hover drone in the new Campaign which is the new Ethereal model that shows up in the Rumor posts...
but I wonder if that is a model specifically for the Campaign character, or is a general new Tau model for the ethereal in which case....
I think Ethereals should all have an invul save considering Aun'Shi has one its clearly possible lol.
Theyre so...sooooo squishy. Only times mine doesnt die in like 1-2 turns is when he hides behind a broadside wall or inside a devilfish (i swear to god if they make his powers no longer work from a vehicle....)
What's the rumored ghostkeel/stealth formation? And any word if there is a way to make stealthsuits troops? I want to field a bunch because I like the models.
Orock wrote: What's the rumored ghostkeel/stealth formation? And any word if there is a way to make stealthsuits troops? I want to field a bunch because I like the models.
This bundle gives you everything you need in order to field the Optimised Stealth Cadre. Two sets of three XV25 Stealth Battlesuits, with two accompanying marker drones, and an XV95 Ghostkeel Battlesuit with two MV5 stealth drone projectors are included - the enemy won’t know where to turn.
Interestingly enough, that text is actually changed a bit though. It did previously say what was effectively "This is a formation in Codex: Tau Empire".
Here's the original text:
This bundle gives you everything you need in order to field the Optimised Stealth Cadre, as found in Codex: Tau Empire.
Interestingly enough, that text is actually changed a bit though. It did previously say what was effectively "This is a formation in Codex: Tau Empire".
THe Hammerhead formation still has that line, but both ghostkeel formations lost it. Firebase still doesn't have it.
Orock wrote:What's the rumored ghostkeel/stealth formation? And any word if there is a way to make stealthsuits troops? I want to field a bunch because I like the models.
No way to make Stealth Suits troops. The codex is basically the same from 6th, formations aside.
Interestingly enough, that text is actually changed a bit though. It did previously say what was effectively "This is a formation in Codex: Tau Empire".
The Hammerhead formation still has that line, but both ghostkeel formations lost it. Firebase still doesn't have it.
Yup. Interesting.
Orock wrote:What's the rumored ghostkeel/stealth formation? And any word if there is a way to make stealthsuits troops? I want to field a bunch because I like the models.
No way to make Stealth Suits troops. The codex is basically the same from 6th, formations aside.
Formations and the new "Hunter Cadre" detachment plus all the new goodies aside, you mean?
I'm guessing it's just a physical Homing Beacon since they can take that on their leader as an option.
I really do hope they buff the Stealth Suits a little, as right now they're just not very good, despite having awesome models. Not to mention Commander Shadowsun is one of my favourite models out there, but she's nearly unplayable :/.
Gun limitations are my main issue with stealthsuits. They could use a small price reduction too but i mainly want to be able to have full squads with fusions. Right now, price aside, youre forced to get Targetlocks on the fusion suits because otherwise they either overkill a troop or your bursts are wasted on vehicles. I despise mixing guns in a squad. I'd rather have Counterfire on them because they get charged a lot, that BS2 overwatch is a lifesaver.
And i too love Shadowsun. Ive been holding off on painting her because i want to get my stealth-field idea working right first. Which i finally started working on since Ghostkeels also need it and i kinda want them on the table asap lol.
Tinkrr wrote: I'm guessing it's just a physical Homing Beacon since they can take that on their leader as an option.
I really do hope they buff the Stealth Suits a little, as right now they're just not very good, despite having awesome models. Not to mention Commander Shadowsun is one of my favourite models out there, but she's nearly unplayable :/.
Nah, it's just a little extra piece they put on the sprue that serves no function, they've had it long before they could take a homing beacon.
Did they have it on the old Stealth Suits, before they got the big bulky version? I got a fine cast one when I bought a large NIB stuff from a person, and there's this one piece I can't really place anywhere.
Vineheart01 wrote: Gun limitations are my main issue with stealthsuits. They could use a small price reduction too but i mainly want to be able to have full squads with fusions. Right now, price aside, youre forced to get Targetlocks on the fusion suits because otherwise they either overkill a troop or your bursts are wasted on vehicles. I despise mixing guns in a squad. I'd rather have Counterfire on them because they get charged a lot, that BS2 overwatch is a lifesaver.
And i too love Shadowsun. Ive been holding off on painting her because i want to get my stealth-field idea working right first. Which i finally started working on since Ghostkeels also need it and i kinda want them on the table asap lol.
I'm fully with that, especially since the Burst Cannon isn't a particularly good weapon, and having to take multiple copies of it on suits that compete with Crisis Suits both in cost and force org isn't beneficial. Maybe if they cut the price a little and gave the Fusion blaster a built in Target Lock, like they do with Markerlights on squad leaders, but even then both weapons are short range and pull the unit in different directions. Honestly, that's why I could see them making Stealth Suits a troop choice, I mean they did it with Crisis Suits for FSE, and the Burst Cannon does feel like something basic troops would carry as opposed to elites, because it is comparable to the Pulse Rifle in power.
Actually, considering Shadowsun is depicted in the campaign i wouldnt be surprised if she gets her own suppliment like Farsight did. Her perk? Troop stealthsuits and all non-MCs that remain stationary gain Stealth or something gimicky like that.
Vineheart01 wrote: Actually, considering Shadowsun is depicted in the campaign i wouldnt be surprised if she gets her own suppliment like Farsight did. Her perk? Troop stealthsuits and all non-MCs that remain stationary gain Stealth or something gimicky like that.
Would be interesting....nah wouldnt happen lol
So much counting on this and making stealth suits troop options.
Tinkrr wrote: Did they have it on the old Stealth Suits, before they got the big bulky version? I got a fine cast one when I bought a large NIB stuff from a person, and there's this one piece I can't really place anywhere.
Not the XV15s, but the plastic XV25s during 4th and 5th had it, and the homing beacon wasn't a thing yet.
Thats why i dont have them. I have the old XV15s. 5 of them actually, i kitbashed a 6th out of a firewarrior lol (not exactly happy with it, stalking ebay right now for xv15s to get a 6th one)
Wonder why they would give them a piece with a base that does nothing. I mean, Orks have snotlings and oil grots that have no profile but are their own model. Theyre just there for the heck of it even though they are by no means required to be on the table.
Vineheart01 wrote: Thats why i dont have them. I have the old XV15s. 5 of them actually, i kitbashed a 6th out of a firewarrior lol (not exactly happy with it, stalking ebay right now for xv15s to get a 6th one)
Wonder why they would give them a piece with a base that does nothing. I mean, Orks have snotlings and oil grots that have no profile but are their own model. Theyre just there for the heck of it even though they are by no means required to be on the table.
Because at the time, they were trying to make it so that each army had some kind of "scenery" piece for some of their kits.
Terminators had a Teleport Homer piece, Eldar got some shrine parts to put on their bases, Imperial Guard had sandbags for their HWTs, and Genestealers came with those little digestive pools.
Some people jumping to some big conclusions based upon the german info on a supplement.
This is why we can't have nice things.
Now, moving on to a few things we do have confirmed.
I am VERY happy we have firewarriors with an option of 12 man squads, and can get the missile turret thing. I can see putting many of those in my army. Personally, I am going to convert a drone or something like that - gw is getting zero money from me for any of the new firewarriors.
One note on the firewarriors - there are a LOT of pistols on the spure - has anyone seen any CONFIRMED rules that those are more than just for modeling bits?
(i.e. do breachers or strikers actually get pistols? - maybe I missed it).
On the tidewall, in looking at the sprues - I am starting to like the kit...for all the conversion possibilities. Although - the sprues don't seem as ...dense as their newer designs...I am suprised they did not put more small bits in there.
On the campaign book ...thing...very interesting to see a BS4 piranha - even at 55 points. I hope that we have access to one in the basic codex, although 55 is still a lot for a one shot weapon. Will have to wait for actual codex however, before too much speculation.
Still waiting for;
Word on kroot
word on vespid
word on if flyers got some love
anything about vehicle upgrades
anything on riptide changes
anything on any new wargear.
From what we've heard and been told by GW themselves in the new WD is that all the new rules are in the new Tau supplement. It's possible to use your old codex and the new rules because there are no changes to the existing units.
A key thing to remember when pondering whether anything in the main codex will change is that the regular Fire Warriors went down from a 6-model minimum to a 5-model minimum.
This by itself indicates that they are willing to change basic unit entries, the codex isn't going to just be the 6th codex with the new units pasted into it - there'll be a multitude of minor changes plus the Hunter Detachment (and 9 other formations).
On top of this, they could easily change weapon profiles in the summary to change how HRR work, though I don't think they will.
Gamgee wrote: From what we've heard and been told by GW themselves in the new WD is that all the new rules are in the new Tau supplement. It's possible to use your old codex and the new rules because there are no changes to the existing units.
No, it does not say that at all.
That is a VERY BIG CONCLUSION which is not supported with complete data.
First of all - the source of this sounds a lot like marketing speak of saying "hey, we know this book is coming out before the new codex, but you can use this book just fine with your old codex, so please buy this book - we put everything you need in it".
That is not the same as "there are no changes in the old codex, and you don't need to buy the new codex".
It appears that the supplement only has a very few units in it - and those units are quite sepcialized, and even seem to mostly have proper noun names - JUST like the nid book did (the one with the named broodlord, carnifex with special rules, etc.). All the rules you need to play THOSE VERY FEW SPECIAL UNITS are in the book, which is very different from "this contains all the changes to the new codex".
All we know, is that the VERY FEW units in the supplement have their rules in the supplement. AND that the supplement can be played with the old codex.
Thats it, thats all we know. Anything past that is speculation.
Now, we can infer some possible new special rules, if we can see them in the supplement - but we can't infer what is NOT changed in the new codex.
um not realy. the german WD says clearly that we have the choice. eighter we use the old codex and the kayon kampain book OR the new released codex. in both cases we have the full rules.
but ur right. there is no info if there are not a bunch of erata in the kayon book that change a lot of things in the 2013 codex release
Gamgee wrote: From what we've heard and been told by GW themselves in the new WD is that all the new rules are in the new Tau supplement. It's possible to use your old codex and the new rules because there are no changes to the existing units.
No, it does not say that at all.
That is a VERY BIG CONCLUSION which is not supported with complete data.
First of all - the source of this sounds a lot like marketing speak of saying "hey, we know this book is coming out before the new codex, but you can use this book just fine with your old codex, so please buy this book - we put everything you need in it".
That is not the same as "there are no changes in the old codex, and you don't need to buy the new codex".
It appears that the supplement only has a very few units in it - and those units are quite sepcialized, and even seem to mostly have proper noun names - JUST like the nid book did (the one with the named broodlord, carnifex with special rules, etc.). All the rules you need to play THOSE VERY FEW SPECIAL UNITS are in the book, which is very different from "this contains all the changes to the new codex".
All we know, is that the VERY FEW units in the supplement have their rules in the supplement. AND that the supplement can be played with the old codex.
Thats it, thats all we know. Anything past that is speculation.
Now, we can infer some possible new special rules, if we can see them in the supplement - but we can't infer what is NOT changed in the new codex.
Somebody jumps to absurd conclusions in a DakkaDakka rumor thread? Preposterous! Only reasoned speculation supported by hard quality photographic evidence are allowed in here! I wish.
Seriously people, repeat after me: BOLS is not a reliable source! At this rate, we're going to need a "Ongoing BOLS Clickbait" thread. Any way we can fold that into rumor accuracy tracking?
Back on topic: It'll be interesting to see what the White Dwarf and Campaign Book spoilers say...once we get a decent-quality English scan. I don't think that even GW would be stupid enough to spend all this money and invest in these new kits if they were just going to reprint the existing codex. New units are almost always a clear sign of a rules update.
_ghost_ wrote: um not realy. the german WD says clearly that we have the choice. eighter we use the old codex and the kayon kampain book OR the new released codex. in both cases we have the full rules.
but ur right. there is no info if there are not a bunch of erata in the kayon book that change a lot of things in the 2013 codex release
Philosophically, if it's possible to get all the game information in a new edition codex by taking a campaign book as patch plus the old edition codex, that would actually be pretty cool. It's still important that there are little tweaks here and there, and I would be *really* surprised if there were no unit tweaks between the last codex and this.
If I played a faction, personally, I would still want the new codex, because everything is then in one book. Plus, of course, there is usually nice photography, fluff, more consistent organization with other new books and that kind of thing.
Does anyone have the ENGLISH version of the White Dwarf yet?
Also: any good photo leaks of the Solaq contents (new forfmations, etc.) yet?
What is so confusing about the upcoming printed materials?
There will be four (4) items in print coming up.
They are:
– Codex: Tau Empire (It is the current codex PLUS the new models/stats/rules for them added to the existing book)
– Operation Shadowtalon (Raven Guard)
– Burning Dawn (Tau)
– War Zone Damocles: Kauyon (campaign book)
If you already have a 6th edition Codex: Tau Empire, you just need War Zone Damocles: Kauyon to get all the rules for the new models/stats/rules.
If you get War Zone Damocles: Kauyon, you get rules for both Tau (for the new units and Hunter Contingent) and Space Marines (Formations) plus new Fluff.
If you get the new Codex: Tau Empire, you get everything that’s in the Current Codex PLUS all the new models/stats/rules from War Zone Damocles: Kauyon
If you get either Operation Shadowtalon or Burning Dawn, you get some scenario-specific fluff and a formation or two, but that has nothing to do with the real new rules/formations. It is tweaked rules/stats for the scenarios only.
Caederes wrote: If the current units aren't changing, why is the Pirahna 55 points with BS4?
Because its not THE NEW piranha.
Its a specific specially named unit, that has ITS specific rules in the supplement. We have ZERO ideas on what the stock pirahna will be like.
We have ideas on what a VERY select few units, in a very select book will be.
Thats it, thats all the book does. It has a few units, and the rules FOR THOSE UNITS.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
_ghost_ wrote: um not realy. the german WD says clearly that we have the choice. eighter we use the old codex and the kayon kampain book OR the new released codex. in both cases we have the full rules.
but ur right. there is no info if there are not a bunch of erata in the kayon book that change a lot of things in the 2013 codex release
no, we have THE FULL RULES ONLY FOR THE UNITS IN THE campaign book.
are flyers in the campaign book? kroot? Riptides? No.
We have no idea on the future of units that are not the specifically named special units.
Caederes wrote: If the current units aren't changing, why is the Pirahna 55 points with BS4?
Because its not THE NEW piranha.
Its a specific specially named unit, that has ITS specific rules in the supplement. We have ZERO ideas on what the stock pirahna will be like.
We have ideas on what a VERY select few units, in a very select book will be.
Thats it, thats all the book does. It has a few units, and the rules FOR THOSE UNITS.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
_ghost_ wrote: um not realy. the german WD says clearly that we have the choice. eighter we use the old codex and the kayon kampain book OR the new released codex. in both cases we have the full rules.
but ur right. there is no info if there are not a bunch of erata in the kayon book that change a lot of things in the 2013 codex release
no, we have THE FULL RULES ONLY FOR THE UNITS IN THE campaign book.
are flyers in the campaign book? kroot? Riptides? No.
We have no idea on the future of units that are not the specifically named special units.
This is how bad rumors get started.
Don't treat people like children if you want to have any credibility. I've just woken up and all I saw was a Pirahna with BS4 and people saying "the codex is the same as before". Seriously, feth off with the attitude.
This is not a rumor. this is what is written in the german WD leak. and there its clearly written that you have the choice old dex and that campain book OR the new dex. both with both ways you end up with the actual Tau rules.
"alle neue Inhalte" this means all new stuff. and if there are tweaks in already existing units.. well this counts as new stuff.
Is the campaign book with all the new rules and that includes updated rules of existing units.
– Codex: Tau Empire (It is the current codex PLUS the new models/stats/rules for them added to the existing book)
– Operation Shadowtalon (Raven Guard)
– Burning Dawn (Tau)
– War Zone Damocles: Kauyon (campaign book)
If you already have a 6th edition Codex: Tau Empire, you just need War Zone Damocles: Kauyon to get all the rules for the new models/stats/rules.
If you get War Zone Damocles: Kauyon, you get rules for both Tau (for the new units and Hunter Contingent) and Space Marines (Formations) plus new Fluff.
If you get the NEW Codex: Tau Empire, you get everything that’s in the Current Codex PLUS all the new models/stats/rules from War Zone Damocles: Kauyon
If you get either Operation Shadowtalon or Burning Dawn, you get some scenario-specific fluff and a formation or two, but that has nothing to do with the real new rules/formations. It is tweaked rules/stats for the scenarios only.
However it should be noted that if all you want is the rules the codex is cheaper and will supply all the changes and unchanged stuff and formations ect. Just not the fluff and space marine stuff from the War Zone. It would be cheaper to get the dex vs the War Zone. Now that the insane confusion has been sorted out I'm calming down... a little. I'm still not convinced this codex won't be a dud, but at least we're not getting shoved into a side supplement with no rules changes our existing codex.
We really need to see the English White Dwarf lol. When it refers to "new models/stats/rules" that seems to indicate that there *are* changes to existing units and that those updates will be in both the campaign book and the codex. Or does it mean the stats/rules for the new units?
If it's the former...that's actually ingenius of GW. This is so confusing having just woke up.
This is beginning to sound a lot like the changes to existing units outside of the firewarriors being broken into two different unit types is going to be incredibly small - if at all. Just a bunch of new units and formations with new rules for them.
I do have to imagine there would be a few potential updates to things like Support Wargear if they're going to be accessible to things like the Stormsurge. To create alternate point values or * which ones are not usable, etc. I would expect Support/Vehicle gear and all of the Relics to potentially be updated to fit well with the new units as well.
I'm certainly intrigued by this new method of codex change/update.
Innovative? It's a total slap in the face to their players. If it's true, this is a step up in both fleecing the players and abdicating rule creation duties.
It would also give a sigh of relief to everyone I know. Tau are still a strong codex compared to most others and simply giving them new units, formations and the Hunter Cadre detachment thing would be boosting them obviously. However people forget there are a lot of crappy/mediocre Tau units that keep the codex as relattively mono-build competitively. Would of sucked for players looking to vary their builds up without resorting to buying the new models.
Caederes wrote: If the current units aren't changing, why is the Pirahna 55 points with BS4?
Because its not THE NEW piranha.
Its a specific specially named unit, that has ITS specific rules in the supplement. We have ZERO ideas on what the stock pirahna will be like.
We have ideas on what a VERY select few units, in a very select book will be.
Thats it, thats all the book does. It has a few units, and the rules FOR THOSE UNITS.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
_ghost_ wrote: um not realy. the german WD says clearly that we have the choice. eighter we use the old codex and the kayon kampain book OR the new released codex. in both cases we have the full rules.
but ur right. there is no info if there are not a bunch of erata in the kayon book that change a lot of things in the 2013 codex release
no, we have THE FULL RULES ONLY FOR THE UNITS IN THE campaign book.
are flyers in the campaign book? kroot? Riptides? No.
We have no idea on the future of units that are not the specifically named special units.
This is how bad rumors get started.
Don't treat people like children if you want to have any credibility. I've just woken up and all I saw was a Pirahna with BS4 and people saying "the codex is the same as before". Seriously, feth off with the attitude.
no personal offense to implication anyone is a child - so please do not take it that way.
As far as credibility - I have plenty in not engaging in rampant speculation, hyperbole ...or insults. So, again, any insult which was interpreted was not intended.
Still however trying to point out that there is a huge difference between
'you only need his book and the old codex to play THE UNITS IN this book"
and
"this book contains all the changes to the new codex".
There is a very significant difference between those concepts logically.
Its exactly like the necron book that came out with the mepherit stuff right before the new cron codex dropped - the mepherit rules were 100% compatible with both books, and only had the special rules for the units in that book. As everyone can see - the necron codex had tons of changes to many units.
Will there be a lot of insights on special rules and wargear in the supplement? Of course!
Will it have all the changes to every single unit and rule for the new codex - not very likely.
I said if it was the former. If it was the former. I also said it could easily be a disaster. They could just as easily reprint the rules with nothing new other than the new units. I would be pretty pissed. I'm still highly suspicious of all of this and not pleased at all if our codex has basically no effort put into it.
Kirasu wrote: Innovative? It's a total slap in the face to their players. If it's true, this is a step up in both fleecing the players and abdicating rule creation duties.
Amazing people can possibly defend this.
It seems like we are getting changes if the translation is anything to go by as it says "new units/stats/rules" which would indicate the army list did get tweaked. We don't know yet. Personally I can't see GW not changing the current codex as it wouldn't make any sense.
Kirasu wrote: Innovative? It's a total slap in the face to their players. If it's true, this is a step up in both fleecing the players and abdicating rule creation duties.
Amazing people can possibly defend this.
You do know they're still changing things on the older units, they're just providing two avenues into obtaining the new rules for the army.
Caederes wrote: It would also give a sigh of relief to everyone I know. Tau are still a strong codex compared to most others and simply giving them new units, formations and the Hunter Cadre detachment thing would be boosting them obviously. However people forget there are a lot of crappy/mediocre Tau units that keep the codex as relattively mono-build competitively. Would of sucked for players looking to vary their builds up without resorting to buying the new models.
Agreed. Honestly the meta seems to have the strongest 4 "units" in the codex (including FS) as the Buffmander, Riptide, Troop Choice Crisis Suits, and Skyrays. Arguably you could put Broadsides in there, but I have always felt they are not mobile enough to fit the other big 4 and their strengths. IF, and that's a huge IF, those 4 core units are not being changed... well then yes this will likely be a buff. Mechanics wise, I'd lump Markerlights in there as well - if they stay the same then we will continue having a very reliable way to buff our units and make up for the lack of psychic mechanics.
For instance, firewarriors are great in theory and for friendly games but they just evaporate in competitive games and if the two new versions make them more dynamic and usable, then you may see them come out to play and knock the outflanking kroot out of the filler troop spot they're in. And even if it doesn't, there really is no harm to the existing Tau lineup in a competitive sense. Meanwhile the new suit types could potentially fill in some of the holes that are missing solutions for the Tau. For instance, super hard hitting/resiliant cav (Lookin' at you Thunderwolf cav), obscenely resilient 'Crons, and Invisible Grav-Stars mixed in with minority solid melee (Draigo and Librarians) and a few strong tanks (Grey Knights). Each existing Tau solution to these fails miserably at handling/responding to the current tournament meta.
If however we're reading too far into this "you only need current codex + supplement to have all of the rules" then who knows! Anyway, very intriguing late night news.
Crisis suits are on 50mm bases, Commanders on 60mm, what did the stealth suits goto? just the regular medium base or the space marine base between medium and the small one?
Somewhere I'm fairly certain a good number of space marine/BA players are rolling their eyes at Tau players complaining about having to now buy new base sizes
Somewhere I'm fairly certain a good number of space marine/BA players are rolling their eyes at Tau players complaining about having to now buy new base sizes
I didn't have to buy any new bases for my Raptors. I did, however, choose to. Nobody's going to force you to rebase your stuff.
and a mercedes suv is $150k. For a car that will never leave the road. what the heck?
I have a silly amount of tau, and am not rebasing anything.
While I can admit some selected units do look better on bigger bases (I think a crisis might look good on a 50mm) I overall feel its just a ploy from gw to get us to buy stuff.
Speaking of bases - do we have confirmation on the base size for the firewarrior turret? I looks like it might be 40mm....hard to tell.
$180 is not inherently wrong for a book. The problem with GW's limited-edition books is that they do nothing to justify their price. A fancy cover and a box to put the book in doesn't add $100+ worth of value to a book with an ever-declining amount of fluff and some rules that will be obsolete within a year or two. I would pay $180 for some books (real or wished-for), just not a GW limited-edition rulebook.
davethepak wrote: and a mercedes suv is $150k. For a car that will never leave the road. what the heck?
I have a silly amount of tau, and am not rebasing anything.
While I can admit some selected units do look better on bigger bases (I think a crisis might look good on a 50mm) I overall feel its just a ploy from gw to get us to buy stuff.
Speaking of bases - do we have confirmation on the base size for the firewarrior turret? I looks like it might be 40mm....hard to tell.
Assuming the SUVs are made to go off-roading is absurd. The new Tesla SUV is the same price and will never go off roading either, but then again no one goes off-roading with their daily vehicles because of things like wanting to keep your car in good working condition for longer than a year. That's not even a thing car companies talk about anymore. If you want to go off roading, grab an ATV and have a blast. they're like 1/10th the cost.
Not only that, but comparing a luxury SUV to a fething book is even more absurd. The book only looks flashier, it doesn't actually add anything to the game. You don't get extra features for your army through the limited edition, you just spend more money. With a luxury SUV, not only does it function as a vehicle, it is far more comfortable, easier to drive, safer, presumably has a sweet sound system, and is generally better in every way than, say, a Mazda3. You're not wasting your money unless you never drive it.
With this Tau limited edition book, you're wasting your money. It doesn't matter how hard the Tau make you, you're paying more money for the same thing everyone else is getting, it just looks better because someone decided to spend the extra 10 minutes in Photoshop touching it up.
To be fair, it's not JUST a book. It's got objective markers, limited edition datacards, a smaller fluff book, and I think that covers it. Still very expensive though.
At 180$, that's absolutely absurd, and this is something I actually wanted to buy before seeing the price.
Objective markers, limited edition art data cards, and such should just be things they give out as encouragements for people to play their game, like MTG FNM promos, not something they value at 100$.
Noctem wrote: To be fair, it's not JUST a book. It's got objective markers, limited edition datacards, a smaller fluff book, and I think that covers it. Still very expensive though.
It would need to have a GhostKeel included just to make me feel like it was worth it. And considering that's ~130$ more than the codex to get a nicer cover, a box, a GhostKeel, some cards/markers, and a tiny fluff book.. I'd be hard pressed to care enough then.
But whatever, they aren't going to give a free model of anything away for their limited edition books. That would just make sense, and we all know GW's policy on shenanigans like that.
GreyDragoon wrote: It would need to have a GhostKeel included just to make me feel like it was worth it. And considering that's ~130$ more than the codex to get a nicer cover, a box, a GhostKeel, some cards/markers, and a tiny fluff book.. I'd be hard pressed to care enough then.
But whatever, they aren't going to give a free model of anything away for their limited edition books. That would just make sense, and we all know GW's policy on shenanigans like that.
These things are just for collectors, the most dedicated fans of that faction, and gifts. There is no practical purpose to it, no "sense" to it, other than, "Oh, that's nicer, and price doesn't matter". Since they sell out every single LE codex, obviously, there's a market for it.
The weird thing about including a model is that something like Dark Vengeance had unique models, and an awesome unique Hellbrute, but cost less than almost any other product out there.
Putting a unique Ghostkeel in the limited edition codex release would be amazing, whereas putting it into something like Dark Vengeance is silly as there's already a discount on models there. It's like why put the cool thing in a cheap box, instead of letting the cheap box sell because it's cheap, while making the expensive thing have the cool model.
...but then again no one goes off-roading with their daily vehicles because of things like wanting to keep your car in good working condition for longer than a year. That's not even a thing car companies talk about anymore. If you want to go off roading, grab an ATV and have a blast. they're like 1/10th the cost.
Um, what? I currently have a Jeep for my daily car. My previous cars have all been Subarus. I'm looking at another Subie. Not only is offroad capability a major selling point for these vehicles, it's in their design. Does not hurt them one bit. Little soap and water and they're good as new.
To further this analogy, GW's books aren't Subies or Jeeps. They're more like Toyota Corrolas or Chevy Cruze, and should priced appropriately.
Also, go to Iraq, Kuwait, or the UAE and you'll see plenty of those fancy Mercedes SUVs tearing it up offroad. I imagine Saudi is the same way, but I've never been there.
GreyDragoon wrote: It would need to have a GhostKeel included just to make me feel like it was worth it. And considering that's ~130$ more than the codex to get a nicer cover, a box, a GhostKeel, some cards/markers, and a tiny fluff book.. I'd be hard pressed to care enough then.
But whatever, they aren't going to give a free model of anything away for their limited edition books. That would just make sense, and we all know GW's policy on shenanigans like that.
These things are just for collectors, the most dedicated fans of that faction, and gifts. There is no practical purpose to it, no "sense" to it, other than, "Oh, that's nicer, and price doesn't matter". Since they sell out every single LE codex, obviously, there's a market for it.
You know, I bought the gamer edition of the 6E rulebook. It cost more, but it came with some nifty dice and other trinkets, and a (I'm assuming fake) leather messenger bag for carrying the book. I was amazingly upset when the book only lasted like two years.
I'm not sure if anyone has pointed this out, but assuming that it's correct that you get all the rules with 6e coudex + Kauyon campaign book...
Kauyon is $74.00 Codex Tau is $49.50
So... if you are not interested in the campaign, you're still better off getting the Codex. You'll just have one book to lug around, and you won't have to deal with "this book for the more updated version of that model" or "that model is in this book". Plus, there's probably new pictures, fluff, and all that.
Again, assuming that the German translation is accurate, I'm not sure which I'd buy; probably, in the end, both, frankly. I just can't see myself not buying the new Tau codex, even if 6e+Kauyon would give me all of the rules part of it. If there's Space Marine stuff in Kauyon, I can't see myself not buying that. So... :X
You know, I bought the gamer edition of the 6E rulebook. It cost more, but it came with some nifty dice and other trinkets, and a (I'm assuming fake) leather messenger bag for carrying the book. I was amazingly upset when the book only lasted like two years.
I still use the bag for my computer.
But if the rumors are true, you can still use the 6e version Just buy WZ Damocles: Kauyon.
You're right about the prices. I'll probably just get the codex. That price difference is like 1/4 a bottle of good Scotch. Or a whole bottle of terrible scotch!
You know, I bought the gamer edition of the 6E rulebook. It cost more, but it came with some nifty dice and other trinkets, and a (I'm assuming fake) leather messenger bag for carrying the book. I was amazingly upset when the book only lasted like two years.
I still use the bag for my computer.
See, for 180$, if it came with a nice purse (messenger bag), I'd totally buy into it. I bought my last one for like 30$ and used it until it's now just falling apart and I need a new one, but if they just made it simple, as in a Tau symbol on it, without the brand labels, I'd buy it for that cost with the rule book. It's that the stuff included with the special rule book is so junky, it feels like throw in goodies you'd get as promotional items, not as premium products.
Heck, I'd even buy it if it was a slightly unique Ghostkeel, all that stuff it has now, some dice, and the book + campaign (not the full book with fluff, but a data sheet), as that's great value.
McNinja wrote: The book only looks flashier, it doesn't actually add anything to the game. You don't get extra features for your army through the limited edition, you just spend more money.
Books can have value beyond the practical use of the material they contain. Again, the problem with GW's limited-edition books isn't some fundamental wrongness about expensive books, it's that GW's limited-edition books just don't live up to what you'd expect from such an expensive purchase. A limited-edition GW book isn't going to be the kind of thing you put in a prominent place on your bookshelf and treasure for the rest of your life, like you might with a rare first-edition copy of your favorite novel.
Dr. Delorean wrote: I've now read through the WD (in English this time) pretty thoroughly, so ask questions if you like and I'll answer to the best of my ability.
I'll write up my observations in a longer post as well.
How much changes to the base codex does it imply? I know it's probably not in the WD issue, but does it sound like Vespids, Stealth Suits, and Kroot are getting changed?
IF (another big IF) the StormSurge's are going to have access to the 4++ Shield Generator as support gear (they can take up to 3) this is going to vastly change my perception of them and to using them as a mid-table grabbing unit. 8 wounds is a pain in the ass to chew through with a 3+/4++ and a 5+FNP to back it up. Of course dice happens.. but man. That's enough to soak an entire grav cent squad's shooting and reliably shrug it off if they don't have re-roll to hit, or be at just shy of 8 wounds if they do. And if you had to charge a melee star with one or two of these things, there's a chance in hell it actually gets to start throwing stomps around. After they've been softened up with some D shots of course.
I can confirm that the WD indeed describes the new codex as an 'update' of the old one, and that if you wish you can simply buy the Kauyon campaign supplement and use it alongside the old one instead of buying the new codex.
However, I think they've done themselves a disservice with that description - it implies that you can just as easily use the old 'dex alongside the campaign supplement instead of using the new codex, thus also implying that the changes in the codex are minor and perhaps insignificant. However, none of the other descriptions of the new codex support this implication; there are significant changes in the new book, the Hunter Contingent Detachment and the 9 formations being just one of them. They'd also need to change the wargear section to reflect the new battlesuit choices available, and display an updated Fire Warrior datasheet. Basically, even though they promote it as an option, I think keeping your old 'dex and using the supplement would be far more difficult (due to having to keep track of the multitude of minor changes the supplement has) than just getting the new version of the Codex.
The new codex is stated to be 128 pages, in comparison to the 104 page one we have currently. Assuming the new detachment goes over two pages (as previous faction's variants have done) and the 9 additional formations take up a page each, we're left with 13 unassigned pages. The new releases (stormsurge, ghostkeel, tidewall, breacher FWs) take up another 4, with the Coldstar commander being absorbed by the existing Commander entry. That leaves 9 unassigned pages as far as I can tell but I may well have forgotten something.
In the description of the new Commander kit it goes into more detail on the Enforcer and Coldstar variants - the Enforcer is described as being able to hold more weapon, support, and signature systems over the basic Crisis suit and the Coldstar.
Iridium as an option is still in there and is still a Signature system.
maceria wrote: No, the BRB, not Tau special edition codex.
You're right about the prices. I'll probably just get the codex. That price difference is like 1/4 a bottle of good Scotch. Or a whole bottle of terrible scotch!
Ahhh... I misunderstood. I feel bad for anyone who got 6e LE :X
You guys have it good with booze down south. $25 barely gets you half a bottle of terrible Scotch up here (we have a lot of ridiculous liquor taxes)
@Dr. Delorean -- TY, that makes sense. I guess choices are good. I'm pretty sure that I'll just buy the new codex, and let the Tau player in our group buy the campaign book
Dr. Delorean wrote: I've now read through the WD (in English this time) pretty thoroughly, so ask questions if you like and I'll answer to the best of my ability.
I'll write up my observations in a longer post as well.
How much changes to the base codex does it imply? I know it's probably not in the WD issue, but does it sound like Vespids, Stealth Suits, and Kroot are getting changed?
There was nothing specific about Vespids, Stealth Suits, or Kroot. The changes to the base codex are essentially the new models being added in, everything being presented in their new datasheet format, and the addition of the Hunter Contingent Detachment and the Formations. Thus, I would not expect to see any of the three units you mention be changed in terms of statline. They may well be included in formations, however. Seeing as the Wargear section needs to be changed anyway, it is possible their weapons/options would be modified.
Dr. Delorean wrote: I've now read through the WD (in English this time) pretty thoroughly, so ask questions if you like and I'll answer to the best of my ability.
I'll write up my observations in a longer post as well.
How much changes to the base codex does it imply? I know it's probably not in the WD issue, but does it sound like Vespids, Stealth Suits, and Kroot are getting changed?
There was nothing specific about Vespids, Stealth Suits, or Kroot. The changes to the base codex are essentially the new models being added in, everything being presented in their new datasheet format, and the addition of the Hunter Contingent Detachment and the Formations. Thus, I would not expect to see any of the three units you mention be changed in terms of statline. They may well be included in formations, however. Seeing as the Wargear section needs to be changed anyway, it is possible their weapons/options would be modified.
Any news about the fire team rule the Ghostkeel has?
What stood out to you the most, like anything that's game changing?
@Delorean: Good heads up on these. Thanks for taking the time to write them up!
Agreed that the wargear section will likely get a change. If anything small text changes to say that the storm surge/ghost keel are the same as the Riptide for point cost on items, etc. But probably more there.
As for the number of pages, 9 pages sounds about right actually. Remember for each of the new unit types, you're not only getting the 1-2 page entry in the middle of the book, but also the 1/3 to 1 page entry in the datasheets later in the book. And I would presume there is SOME additional/new fluff moving the Tau core story forward in time a bit.
How about the other Sig Systems, are the rest of the buffmander toys still secure or no mention of them?
TheNewBlood wrote: @Dr. Delorean: Thanks for doing this for us! Here are my questions:
As far as you can tell, have any army-wide special rules (such as Supporting Fire) changed significantly?
Are Markerlights the same as the previous Tau codex, or have they changed?
What sort of benefits due the new formations/Hunter Cadre provide?
Are Signature Systems limited to one per model, or can models take multiple Signature Systems?
The first two I can answer because I also got to read the rules for the Burning Dawn supplement - No, neither of them have changed (as far as I can tell) in any way. Markerlights didn't include the option to fire Seeker Missiles, but seeker missiles aren't included in the Burning Dawn set, so I don't expect they changed either. Nothing on what the Fire Team rule does either.
Apart from mentioning that the Hunter Contingent/9 New formations exist, nothing was stated on what they actually do or what they include. When this stuff goes up for pre-order on Saturday I fully expect a 1-click bundle for the 'reclamation legion/demi-company' Tau equivalent to be put up, which'll give us a decent idea of what it contains.
Signature Systems weren't directly addressed - but the Enforcer suit specifically said that its larger reactor enables the suit to support more signature systems, implying multiple can be taken.
Dr. Delorean wrote: I've now read through the WD (in English this time) pretty thoroughly, so ask questions if you like and I'll answer to the best of my ability.
I'll write up my observations in a longer post as well.
How much changes to the base codex does it imply? I know it's probably not in the WD issue, but does it sound like Vespids, Stealth Suits, and Kroot are getting changed?
There was nothing specific about Vespids, Stealth Suits, or Kroot. The changes to the base codex are essentially the new models being added in, everything being presented in their new datasheet format, and the addition of the Hunter Contingent Detachment and the Formations. Thus, I would not expect to see any of the three units you mention be changed in terms of statline. They may well be included in formations, however. Seeing as the Wargear section needs to be changed anyway, it is possible their weapons/options would be modified.
Any news about the fire team rule the Ghostkeel has?
What stood out to you the most, like anything that's game changing?
Iridium as an option is still in there and is still a Signature system.
More info can be provided if requested.
So no per squad or shas'ui upgrade to iridium? It's still a signature system so only 1/per army for each?
Or have the sig systems been significantly changed?
GreyDragoon wrote:@Delorean: Good heads up on these. Thanks for taking the time to write them up!
Agreed that the wargear section will likely get a change. If anything small text changes to say that the storm surge/ghost keel are the same as the Riptide for point cost on items, etc. But probably more there.
As for the number of pages, 9 pages sounds about right actually. Remember for each of the new unit types, you're not only getting the 1-2 page entry in the middle of the book, but also the 1/3 to 1 page entry in the datasheets later in the book. And I would presume there is SOME additional/new fluff moving the Tau core story forward in time a bit.
How about the other Sig Systems, are the rest of the buffmander toys still secure or no mention of them?
You questions are in the Spoiler so I don't take up too much space.
It's stated that Iridium is an option a Crisis Shas'Ui can take, but it also explicitly calls it a signature system. Looks like 1 per army remains.
Apart from the Enforcer being able to take multiple Sig systems (maybe, based on its description) it appears as though they're unchanged.
The Commander entry sample in the WD has a paragraph at the start that explicitly tells you to use all of the current profiles for weaponry, systems etc that appear in the 2013 book, unless they either don't appear in the 2013 book or are modified in the entry.
A cautionary thought about the codex equivalencies...
There is the difference between functionally equivalent for average or casual players, and technically different for precision rules experts who will parse each word.
GW may think (even intend) for the two prints to be functionally equivalent, but if you look at the SM codex Chapter Tactics, they look functionally equivalent, yet if you parse the words, holy heck there are some significant actual changes (perhaps unintentional, like Iron Hands and vehicles).
So whether intentionally or not, when GW "reprints" a section with a few different words, people may go bananas over how everything is all different and how the two editions aren't alike at all.
Talys wrote: A cautionary thought about the codex equivalencies...
There is the difference between functionally equivalent for average or casual players, and technically different for precision rules experts who will parse each word.
GW may think (even intend) for the two prints to be functionally equivalent, but if you look at the SM codex Chapter Tactics, they look functionally equivalent, yet if you parse the words, holy heck there are some significant actual changes (perhaps unintentional, like Iron Hands and vehicles).
So whether intentionally or not, when GW "reprints" a section with a few different words, people may go bananas over how everything is all different and how the two editions aren't alike at all.
Even if they were meant to be.
Agreed on the word of caution Talys. I will say though that the last SM book was more of a general cleanup/rewording of nearly everything in their lineup. Little changes here and there, from points to rule wordings. If they are saying that the contents of the 2013 Tau book remains the same.. then that's certainly a whole different thing. Makes this "codex" update more of a large scale addition.
How many new units did other 'Dexs get in recent releases? I'm kind of surprised how many units and formations the Tau are getting without older ones being removed or replaced entirely. It just feels like a lot of new entries, although if Enforce and Cold are now just sub-entries to the Commander that makes more sense.. I guess?
Talys wrote: A cautionary thought about the codex equivalencies...
There is the difference between functionally equivalent for average or casual players, and technically different for precision rules experts who will parse each word.
GW may think (even intend) for the two prints to be functionally equivalent, but if you look at the SM codex Chapter Tactics, they look functionally equivalent, yet if you parse the words, holy heck there are some significant actual changes (perhaps unintentional, like Iron Hands and vehicles).
So whether intentionally or not, when GW "reprints" a section with a few different words, people may go bananas over how everything is all different and how the two editions aren't alike at all.
Even if they were meant to be.
This is why I think just using the 2013 codex alongside the supplement isn't going to be feasible option. You'll have to go through the supplement with a fine-toothed comb to find all of the differences and modifications, and constantly flip from one book to the other during a game.
Talys wrote: A cautionary thought about the codex equivalencies...
There is the difference between functionally equivalent for average or casual players, and technically different for precision rules experts who will parse each word.
GW may think (even intend) for the two prints to be functionally equivalent, but if you look at the SM codex Chapter Tactics, they look functionally equivalent, yet if you parse the words, holy heck there are some significant actual changes (perhaps unintentional, like Iron Hands and vehicles).
So whether intentionally or not, when GW "reprints" a section with a few different words, people may go bananas over how everything is all different and how the two editions aren't alike at all.
Even if they were meant to be.
This is why I think just using the 2013 codex alongside the supplement isn't going to be feasible option. You'll have to go through the supplement with a fine-toothed comb to find all of the differences and modifications, and constantly flip from one book to the other during a game.
I'd assume people who use the 2013 book plus the campaign one, will re-write the information in their list, to make sure they have an easy reference. They don't even have to re-write it thanks to all the army builder programs out there.
It's a lot easier to set up two reference books in private transcript than during a game, and I think that's the intended purpose D:
Agreed on the word of caution Talys. I will say though that the last SM book was more of a general cleanup/rewording of nearly everything in their lineup. Little changes here and there, from points to rule wordings. If they are saying that the contents of the 2013 Tau book remains the same.. then that's certainly a whole different thing. Makes this "codex" update more of a large scale addition.
How many new units did other 'Dexs get in recent releases? I'm kind of surprised how many units and formations the Tau are getting without older ones being removed or replaced entirely. It just feels like a lot of new entries, although if Enforce and Cold are now just sub-entries to the Commander that makes more sense.. I guess?
I reckon if you took all the actual changes to the SM dex between editions and compared them to the changes made that we know of to the new Tau dex, the new Tau dex would actually have more modifications than the SM one, simply because we had a lot more units added.
I'm trying to think of what actually changed (detachments/formations and Combat Doctrines aside) in the SM codex. Scouts got a full marine profile aside from armour, preds and vindicators became squadronable with benefits for doing so, was there anything else?
I'm trying to think of what actually changed (detachments/formations and Combat Doctrines aside) in the SM codex. Scouts got a full marine profile aside from armour, preds and vindicators became squadronable with benefits for doing so, was there anything else?
Points drop on Terminators. Points inrease on the TH/SS-option. Extra Attack on Dreads. Probably a few more minor things, but those are the ones that come to mind.
I'm trying to think of what actually changed (detachments/formations and Combat Doctrines aside) in the SM codex. Scouts got a full marine profile aside from armour, preds and vindicators became squadronable with benefits for doing so, was there anything else?
Points drop on Terminators. Points inrease on the TH/SS-option. Extra Attack on Dreads. Probably a few more minor things, but those are the ones that come to mind.
Techmarines got W2 (including for TFC's which can now be taken in units of 3) and no more distinct Master of the Forge. Grav Cannons made available to Tac's & Dev's. Dedicated transports made Fast Attack.
I'm trying to think of what actually changed (detachments/formations and Combat Doctrines aside) in the SM codex. Scouts got a full marine profile aside from armour, preds and vindicators became squadronable with benefits for doing so, was there anything else?
Points drop on Terminators. Points inrease on the TH/SS-option. Extra Attack on Dreads. Probably a few more minor things, but those are the ones that come to mind.
I'm trying to think of what actually changed (detachments/formations and Combat Doctrines aside) in the SM codex. Scouts got a full marine profile aside from armour, preds and vindicators became squadronable with benefits for doing so, was there anything else?
Points drop on Terminators. Points inrease on the TH/SS-option. Extra Attack on Dreads. Probably a few more minor things, but those are the ones that come to mind.
Techmarines got W2 (including for TFC's which can now be taken in units of 3) and no more distinct Master of the Forge. Grav Cannons made available to Tac's & Dev's. Dedicated transports made Fast Attack.
Fair enough - I can confirm that Tau dedicated transports (the Devilfish at least) also received the Fast Attack treatment according to the tiny codex preview.
Grav cannons being made available is broadly analogous to FW squads getting access to the new drone turret. I fully expect Hammerheads and Skyrays to become squadronable as well, hopefully with some kind of D-related benefit.
So in terms of what we've 'missed out on', it's really just slight points adjustments (up or down), condensing of unit options (no MoF but 2W techies), possibly slight statline adjustments?
In a very profound way I think this actually worked out really well. Sure, there are things I wanted to change with the new book (devilfish being less points, Vespid being rejigged, Iridium being a support system), but there were also a lot of things I didn't want them to change.
I didn't want markerlights to change, I didn't want Supporting Fire to change, I didn't want Crisis suits to be more expensive or have Farsight Enclaves invalidated, there's a lot more.
When you open the door to massive changes, those changes can be both positive and negative. If we had the points for Devilfish revised, we could've also had Commanders go up to 100pts or markerlights become far worse than they are. Hell, we could've had Robin Cruddace be the one doing the majority of the work on our codex, can you imagine how awful that might've been?
This way, we get to keep everything in our codex that's good and works PLUS getting a bunch of new units and a Decurion-esque detachment + accompanying Formations. We didn't need to sacrifice anything in the codex to get those benefits.
Look at Orks as a counter example: When their new book was on the horizon, I was really hyped because I thought it'd improve a lot of things. Instead, it ripped the guts out of the army, changed things that never needed to be changed, and (arguably) alienated a large portion of the Ork playerbase. This Tau release could've been exactly the same, but instead they adopted the 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' mentality.
I know there'll be a lot of people who (justifiably, perhaps) are annoyed that more wasn't done, but in my opinion I'd rather have our current codex + MORE STUFF, than risk having the entire codex ruined by GW incompetence.
With the information from the german White Dwarf confirmed by the english magazine - Thank you, Dr. Delorean - and seeing GW is going for a let's call it innovative way of publicating rules I would like to point out there is the possibility of another campaign book featuring Tau. This is not a rumor - but the chance there is another book - maybe even containing an updated Farsight Enclave list/detachment - should be taken into consideration.
Honestly, I don't think that, even if this is the intent, we will be able to use the 6e codex as a living document by combining it with the new campaign book for one reason: imprecision of language. GW is known for not being precise with their language.
Hypothetical example that is not based on any actual rules:
Suppose in the new codex Piranha are BS4, and in the new campaign book there is a note that says "increase the Piranha BS to 4".
Those basically mean the same thing. Of course they are intended to mean the same thing. But the argument could be made, RAW, that the Piranha is BS with an improvement, not BS4, so anything affects BS modifiers would mess with it.
A very extreme hypothetical, yes, but it illustrates how minor wording tweaks can cause confusion.
In the end, the full codex is cheaper, so, you know, the more "definitive" wording of rules will be a nice bonus.
A true, honest to god, living document for the various rules would be amazing. I don't think GW can handle it though.
I am willing to bet the campaign book literally comes with the Dataslates that are included in the codex. It won't have any of the lore that the codex does, though.
maceria wrote: But the argument could be made, RAW, that the Piranha is BS with an improvement, not BS4, so anything affects BS modifiers would mess with it.
The argument can't be made because errata/updates/FAQs exist outside of the rules. This isn't a special rule saying "the Piranha gets BS 4" or "the Piranha gets +1 BS", it's a statement outside of the rules saying "on page X replace BS 3 with BS 4". It's just like correcting a typo, you change the printed text in the rulebook and only then do you start interpreting what it means.
mazik765 wrote: Well I, for one, am very excited about the new Tau formations/detachments
The stealth suits have always been my favourite infantry in the Tau army so hopefully they get some love in the formations!
Also I really like the new Commander model. Or rather, I hated the old one and am glad it's gone although it is a little pricey for what it is.
Me too. I've always loved the design of the stealth suits, so I'm looking forwards to them getting some decent formations (possibly with the Ghostkeel) so that I have an excuse to start a Tau amy.
Apparently the Hunter Contingent detachment has two benefits:
- All markerlight hits are doubled
- Units can use regular markerlights to benefit themselves at double the cost of spending them normally (basically makes them networked markerlights when combined with the doubled hits above)
Take this with a Dead Sea's worth of salt for now, I'm still trying to verify the source.
Dr. Delorean wrote: Apparently the Hunter Contingent detachment has two benefits:
- All markerlight hits are doubled
- Units can use regular markerlights to benefit themselves at double the cost of spending them normally (basically makes them networked markerlights when combined with the doubled hits above)
Take this with a Dead Sea's worth of salt for now, I'm still trying to verify the source.
If this is true, Sniper marksmen just got a whole lot better, as well as adding the odd marker drone here or there.
My Remoras would love it, but, you know, not in the formation.
You know. If this codex is a dud and this is the way of the future for 40k as a TT game I can see a lot of gamers leaving. My cousin is already getting out. His brother is thinking of leaving too. Their friend is also thinking of leaving. That's over half the players left in the 40k group. Now I too must come to ask myself this question. Sad to see I might have seen and been part of the end days for 40k as a game and become a model painting hobby. I like to game with my models and GW is not making it easy. We're far from the richest players ever but we managed to keep single armies going.
We happen to play IG, Chaos, Nids, and Tau. All armies about to be hit hard by this new change of direction. Now I know if this happens there will be a community who makes their own rules, but it would still mean giving money to a company that wants nothing to do with me at that point. I'll have to consider this. It's too bad since I only started one and a half years ago or so.I'll have to think carefully. I wonder if anyone else is contemplating the same thing.
The double Markerlights think sounds both fluffy and insane.
Here's the weird thing about the "use the old codex" thing...we know the Fireblade is now a Troops coice due to his slot swap on the web store, as are Drones (before they were taken off they got put in Troops).
)
), but the internet strongly exaggerates the praise and condemnations the 
donkey balls! I've certainly been known to start complaining at the drop of a hat!
(just now realizing that the old 4-8 Pathfinder units changed last edition to 4-10, already setting this (obviously Ordos Xenos) infiltration into the Tau empire via Decimal system....
