Gamgee wrote: GW and FW aare not known for letting conversions be in their shows. It's usually for their stuff.
Some of the pictures I was seeing of the open show from Saturday had a lot of conversions in them. Some weird combinations of a knight upper body with some engine bits from storm talons, some weird flying vehicle conversion made of the top half of a wraithknight. Threw me for a loop at all these new vehicles until I started recognizing body parts.
Gamgee wrote: Every time I've heard someone talk about the Stormsurge like 5+ people now all I hear is this as a rough approximation.
Oh it got bad rolls and died on turn two. Oh it didn't reach its full potential and died on turn 2. Oh I killed it easy with grab drops. It's very underwhelming. Or it died too fast to use its full potential power. Or I got bad rolls so I don't know how good it will actually be.
Most of them insist its very balanced because it didn't do much and died to their armies. Naturally.
All I hear is suck suck suck. :( Why did you do this to us GW. Why? All we wanted was a half decent lord of war option. I didn't need anything OP, but did I need a death sentence?
Go read that thread on ATT, people have been fairly positive on it in their in-game impressions. Ultimately for 410 points (assuming Shield Generator, Pulse Driver Cannon, Early Warning Override, Twin-Linked Airbursting Fragmentation Projector) it soaks up a tonne of shooting, has a 72" range Demolisher Cannon that can shoot twice and benefit from Markerlights, can Intercept with said massive gun and from what I've seen in my local group especially it utterly murders anything that's not a Super Heavy Vehicle/Gargantuan Creature/2+ Monstrous Creature on the board. I'm betting you will be pleasently surprised if you get to try it out, I wasn't nearly as down on it as you but I was still pensive about it; let's just say our field-testing so far has been great. I've tried the usual Centurions in Drop Pods combo but dayum that thing just murders them with Interceptor shooting, my Skyhammer had more success as I had a much bigger spread of Deep Striking Grav Cannons but it still wasn't enough to kill it before it took out almost its equivalent in points while soaking up almost all of my damage.
Most people I've talked to/read about are reporting they have been impressed by it relative to supposedly how "mediocre" it is. Toughness 6, 4+ invulnerable save, Feel No Pain (5+) and 8 Wounds still eats up a ridiculous amount of shooting and the whole "Strength 5 AP5 shooting sucks" has proven to be patently false if our testing is anything to go by. If the people mentioned above are legitimately still hopeful about the model despite a mix of bad dice luck and facing its hard counters, there's probably a good reason that they say they are hopeful. Again, we might just be blowing smoke but certainly with the current codex it seems to work out really well and gives Tau a unit that can tank almost anything really well plus putting out a crazy amount of firepower. The most interesting analogy is to a Riptide for us; the Riptide is super reliant on Markerlights to unlock its full potential but the Stormsurge has done very well even with lots of its Markerlight sources dying before it could benefit from them. Already we can tell that the Early Warning Override and Shield Generator upgrades are way too cheap for the Stormsurge and we expect them to change.
It's essentially a giant Broadside from what I can tell, meaning you want to have at least one or two units protecting it even if just for Supporting Fire. The big base makes charging it finicky if it has decent support due to the coverage potential for Supporting Fire. I think it is something that Tau players will probably have to build their list around rather than being a plug-and-play unit like the Wraithknight, much like any Tau unit should be. The fact that it moves 12" and has all the benefits of being a Gargantuan Creature was particularly amusing in a certain match-up where I think it was another Tau player that couldn't do anything at all to it after he lost his Markerlight sources and Skyrays early, meaning the Stormsurge user started to charge it forward and Stomp everything while soaking up all the shooting possible.
Yeah i call bs on the people claiming they killed a stormsurge turn 2 or 3. The tau player would have to be an idiot to put it that far ahead to get shot that much. Nobody has that many long range guns that can reliably wound it and its immune to ID. Only way i could conceive it is if you faced multiple wraithknights and got good damage rolls.
S5 AP5 spam is indeed strong. Thats how i typically play my tau. What i dont get about it though is they arent high yield smart missiles OR missilepods. Thats the odd thing to me.
Also regarding that radar dish bit. Far as i know nothing is defined what is what for our auxiliary bits but ive always claimed thats the EWO since...its a radar dish... lol
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah i call bs on the people claiming they killed a stormsurge turn 2 or 3. The tau player would have to be an idiot to put it that far ahead to get shot that much. Nobody has that many long range guns that can reliably wound it and its immune to ID. Only way i could conceive it is if you faced multiple wraithknights and got good damage rolls.
S5 AP5 spam is indeed strong. Thats how i typically play my tau. What i dont get about it though is they arent high yield smart missiles OR missilepods. Thats the odd thing to me.
Also regarding that radar dish bit. Far as i know nothing is defined what is what for our auxiliary bits but ive always claimed thats the EWO since...its a radar dish... lol
The only real way to kill it in two turns is to mass Drop Pod Graviton spam or have lots of long-ranged Destroyer weapons, it's too easy to bubble-wrap for the Wraithguard Webway Portal trick to work. In almost every game I've seen though it soaks up way more points' worth of shooting than its own price while generally making its points back pretty quickly. The vulnerability to small arms fire hasn't really been a factor in any of the games we've played so far, sure the potential for a lucky shot to strip its' last wound off is possible for this thing and not for something like a Wraithknight, but this is also way more resistant to heavy firepower and just generally is a fire magnet. The eight wounds, 4++ and 5+++ are a godsend against Graviton.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, having read up some more on Advanced Tau Tactica the hardcore Tau players are starting to work out some good uses for the new units before we've seen the codex. The wording of the Coldstars' rules with regards to Drones means it might be possible to join it to a unit of Drones, fly and have them all attach to him, then have him land behind a nasty vehicle/squadron/unit/etc and unload with masses of BS5 (Drone Controller) twin-linked S5 AP5 shots, or maybe even S7 AP4 shots if Missile Drones become widely available. Add in the Coldstars' own shooting and it could be a potentially nasty trick, especially against Astra Militarum players. With the Fire Warrior Breachers, Darkstrider seems like an obvious fit as he can give them Outflank plus the whole "Overwatch then retreat" rule, so hopefully his rules stay the same and he gets a point reduction.
Darkstrider is insanely expensive for what he does though. While that sounds nasty giving breachers that shoot n run tactic, ouch the cost.
The gun drone squad idea is just hilarious. I always have a 5man piranha squad so i always have 10 gun drones floating around. Muhahahaha!
Ive already attached random commanders with drone controllers to them and they become insanely scary quick.
Gamgee wrote: We got a biggie folks. Some sort of new Tau goodie from FW. What could it be? Looks like an auxiliary to me. An attentive spotter at ATT posted it.
It looks like fast attack. He also speculates it is a demiurge (just a guess from the looks of it). Also you can see either the new alien or Tau on top of the Stormsurge. Could be those Earth Caste engineers they mentioned wanting to make up top, but not the thing on the ground.
I can't wait to see what new units we get in our next FW book alleged to be admech vs tau.
It is an Earth Caste Engineer. They look to be just things for detailing a Stormsurge if you wanted to, like the sitting Elysians in Valkyries or the Gorgon Transport Death Korps.
Vineheart01 wrote: Darkstrider is insanely expensive for what he does though. While that sounds nasty giving breachers that shoot n run tactic, ouch the cost.
The gun drone squad idea is just hilarious. I always have a 5man piranha squad so i always have 10 gun drones floating around. Muhahahaha!
Ive already attached random commanders with drone controllers to them and they become insanely scary quick.
Hence why the tactic rests on him getting a big price drop which I think is in order. His rules are so darned good for Breachers specifically, he just needs to be cheaper.
Vineheart01 wrote: Darkstrider is insanely expensive for what he does though. While that sounds nasty giving breachers that shoot n run tactic, ouch the cost.
The gun drone squad idea is just hilarious. I always have a 5man piranha squad so i always have 10 gun drones floating around. Muhahahaha!
Ive already attached random commanders with drone controllers to them and they become insanely scary quick.
Hence why the tactic rests on him getting a big price drop which I think is in order. His rules are so darned good for Breachers specifically, he just needs to be cheaper.
How much cheaper could he get?!
100 points for a BS5 character who brings a Markerlight to the party, has Scout, and makes a unit that he joins able to consolidate D6" after firing Overwatch? And who subtracts a point of Toughness from whatever he and his unit are shooting at, outside of making Snap Shots?
Get Darkstrider with a unit of Breachers onto an objective in Cover early on, call down a turret with a Missile Pod. If Darkstrider and his unit get dug in quick enough, then any unit that is Toughness 3(before the Structural Analyser kicks in) that gets targeted is getting doubled out via weapon strength from 6"-15" thanks to his Signature System--and the Missile Pod is going to be doubling out anything that is T4(before SA kicks in) as well.
I really don't understand why people say he's overcosted for what he brings.
Gamgee wrote: We got a biggie folks. Some sort of new Tau goodie from FW. What could it be? Looks like an auxiliary to me. An attentive spotter at ATT posted it.
It looks like fast attack. He also speculates it is a demiurge (just a guess from the looks of it). Also you can see either the new alien or Tau on top of the Stormsurge. Could be those Earth Caste engineers they mentioned wanting to make up top, but not the thing on the ground.
I can't wait to see what new units we get in our next FW book alleged to be admech vs tau.
Made an account for this sorry if it's terrible grammar or miss use of links and such.
I was at that open day, that little bit of paper in the middle says it is all conversion work on that shelf and was show case for the "talk to design team" stand.
Sorry but that's what it said, I didn't t get a photo of the label but I got another one of that conversion from another angle, bit potato quilts though.
Because hes insanely squishy. Pretty much any army can clear a squad of firewarriors and the IC attached in a single turn if they focus enough. Ive never EVER seen Darkstrider get more than 1 turn of shooting before getting wiped off the face of the earth. Thats also why Ethereals are so hard to keep alive without a 'fish around or a broadside unit to attach to and hide behind. Paying 100pts for something, no matter how strong, isnt worth it when he never survives more than 1 round. T3 4+ armor is really easy to remove, and Darkstrider himself has 5+ armor no invul.
Rx5 wrote: Made an account for this sorry if it's terrible grammar or miss use of links and such.
I was at that open day, that little bit of paper in the middle says it is all conversion work on that shelf and was show case for the "talk to design team" stand.
Sorry but that's what it said, I didn't t get a photo of the label but I got another one of that conversion from another angle, bit potato quilts though.
Ah thanks for the clearer picture.
It would be sweet if FW made something based off those conversions.
Vineheart01 wrote: Because hes insanely squishy. Pretty much any army can clear a squad of firewarriors and the IC attached in a single turn if they focus enough. Ive never EVER seen Darkstrider get more than 1 turn of shooting before getting wiped off the face of the earth. Thats also why Ethereals are so hard to keep alive without a 'fish around or a broadside unit to attach to and hide behind.
Paying 100pts for something, no matter how strong, isnt worth it when he never survives more than 1 round. T3 4+ armor is really easy to remove, and Darkstrider himself has 5+ armor no invul.
So don't keep him in the open?
Not every army has huge amounts of "Ignores Cover" weaponry.
And really, 100 points for what he is is ABSURDLY cheap. The Structural Analyzer comes into effect even if all he does is Markerlight the target.
Personally since Tau are about mobility i dont understand why they dont have strikeforce jetbikes. Stealth technology to make them more elusive and their whole point is drive-by bombing runs (think Deffkoptas) with a backup twinlinked pulse carbine.
Vineheart01 wrote: Because hes insanely squishy. Pretty much any army can clear a squad of firewarriors and the IC attached in a single turn if they focus enough. Ive never EVER seen Darkstrider get more than 1 turn of shooting before getting wiped off the face of the earth. Thats also why Ethereals are so hard to keep alive without a 'fish around or a broadside unit to attach to and hide behind.
Paying 100pts for something, no matter how strong, isnt worth it when he never survives more than 1 round. T3 4+ armor is really easy to remove, and Darkstrider himself has 5+ armor no invul.
So don't keep him in the open?
Not every army has huge amounts of "Ignores Cover" weaponry.
And really, 100 points for what he is is ABSURDLY cheap. The Structural Analyzer comes into effect even if all he does is Markerlight the target.
Going to have to go with Kanluwen here. Darkstrider is appropriately costed for what he brings to the table. HIs main problems are that he takes up an HQ slot and he isn't very survivable. I can see him becoming a special character you can attack to a Pathfinder squad in a similar manner as you could attach a Cadre Fireblade to Fire Warriors. Because he's an Independent Character, he can leave the Pathfinders and join the Breachers for deployment.
Vineheart01 wrote: Because hes insanely squishy. Pretty much any army can clear a squad of firewarriors and the IC attached in a single turn if they focus enough. Ive never EVER seen Darkstrider get more than 1 turn of shooting before getting wiped off the face of the earth. Thats also why Ethereals are so hard to keep alive without a 'fish around or a broadside unit to attach to and hide behind.
Paying 100pts for something, no matter how strong, isnt worth it when he never survives more than 1 round. T3 4+ armor is really easy to remove, and Darkstrider himself has 5+ armor no invul.
So don't keep him in the open?
Not every army has huge amounts of "Ignores Cover" weaponry.
And really, 100 points for what he is is ABSURDLY cheap. The Structural Analyzer comes into effect even if all he does is Markerlight the target.
Going to have to go with Kanluwen here. Darkstrider is appropriately costed for what he brings to the table. HIs main problems are that he takes up an HQ slot and he isn't very survivable. I can see him becoming a special character you can attack to a Pathfinder squad in a similar manner as you could attach a Cadre Fireblade to Fire Warriors. Because he's an Independent Character, he can leave the Pathfinders and join the Breachers for deployment.
As it stands right now, Darkstrider has the "Fight on Foot" special rule meaning he can join units of Pathfinders or Fire Warriors.
I hope they restrict him to Pathfinders, personally.
Vineheart01 wrote: Darkstrider is insanely expensive for what he does though. While that sounds nasty giving breachers that shoot n run tactic, ouch the cost.
The gun drone squad idea is just hilarious. I always have a 5man piranha squad so i always have 10 gun drones floating around. Muhahahaha!
Ive already attached random commanders with drone controllers to them and they become insanely scary quick.
Hence why the tactic rests on him getting a big price drop which I think is in order. His rules are so darned good for Breachers specifically, he just needs to be cheaper.
How much cheaper could he get?!
100 points for a BS5 character who brings a Markerlight to the party, has Scout, and makes a unit that he joins able to consolidate D6" after firing Overwatch? And who subtracts a point of Toughness from whatever he and his unit are shooting at, outside of making Snap Shots?
Get Darkstrider with a unit of Breachers onto an objective in Cover early on, call down a turret with a Missile Pod. If Darkstrider and his unit get dug in quick enough, then any unit that is Toughness 3(before the Structural Analyser kicks in) that gets targeted is getting doubled out via weapon strength from 6"-15" thanks to his Signature System--and the Missile Pod is going to be doubling out anything that is T4(before SA kicks in) as well.
I really don't understand why people say he's overcosted for what he brings.
I totally forgot about the Structural Analyzer That thing combined with Breachers is actually ridiculous, you inflict Instant Death on Toughness 4 models and are even capable of seriously hurting a Wraithknight!
The main problem with him before is that it isn't really worth spending that much points on a Fire Warrior/Pathfinder unit, but for Breachers? Christ!
Vineheart01 wrote: Personally since Tau are about mobility i dont understand why they dont have strikeforce jetbikes. Stealth technology to make them more elusive and their whole point is drive-by bombing runs (think Deffkoptas) with a backup twinlinked pulse carbine.
Vineheart01 wrote: Personally since Tau are about mobility i dont understand why they dont have strikeforce jetbikes. Stealth technology to make them more elusive and their whole point is drive-by bombing runs (think Deffkoptas) with a backup twinlinked pulse carbine.
Vineheart01 wrote: Because hes insanely squishy. Pretty much any army can clear a squad of firewarriors and the IC attached in a single turn if they focus enough. Ive never EVER seen Darkstrider get more than 1 turn of shooting before getting wiped off the face of the earth. Thats also why Ethereals are so hard to keep alive without a 'fish around or a broadside unit to attach to and hide behind.
Paying 100pts for something, no matter how strong, isnt worth it when he never survives more than 1 round. T3 4+ armor is really easy to remove, and Darkstrider himself has 5+ armor no invul.
So don't keep him in the open?
Not every army has huge amounts of "Ignores Cover" weaponry.
And really, 100 points for what he is is ABSURDLY cheap. The Structural Analyzer comes into effect even if all he does is Markerlight the target.
Going to have to go with Kanluwen here. Darkstrider is appropriately costed for what he brings to the table. HIs main problems are that he takes up an HQ slot and he isn't very survivable. I can see him becoming a special character you can attack to a Pathfinder squad in a similar manner as you could attach a Cadre Fireblade to Fire Warriors. Because he's an Independent Character, he can leave the Pathfinders and join the Breachers for deployment.
As it stands right now, Darkstrider has the "Fight on Foot" special rule meaning he can join units of Pathfinders or Fire Warriors.
I hope they restrict him to Pathfinders, personally.
I don't think he would be too overpowered in a Fire Warrior Striker or Breacher squad. After all, the unit isn't exactly durable for its cost.
Vineheart01 wrote: Because hes insanely squishy. Pretty much any army can clear a squad of firewarriors and the IC attached in a single turn if they focus enough. Ive never EVER seen Darkstrider get more than 1 turn of shooting before getting wiped off the face of the earth. Thats also why Ethereals are so hard to keep alive without a 'fish around or a broadside unit to attach to and hide behind.
Paying 100pts for something, no matter how strong, isnt worth it when he never survives more than 1 round. T3 4+ armor is really easy to remove, and Darkstrider himself has 5+ armor no invul.
So don't keep him in the open?
Not every army has huge amounts of "Ignores Cover" weaponry.
And really, 100 points for what he is is ABSURDLY cheap. The Structural Analyzer comes into effect even if all he does is Markerlight the target.
Yeah, that does make Darkstrider sound like a pretty good unit when put like that... but it's completely wrong. The wording on the Structural Analyzer is quite specific. The unit targeted by Darkstrider and his unit lower their toughness value by one only for that unit's shooting attack. If it worked as you suggested it would be significantly more useful. As is, you have a very squishy 100 point character who will either join a very squishy unit for maximized use of his signature system, (Pathfinders for the potential to double out toughness 5 with overcharged ion rifles. Risky but potentially a big payoff since T5 is where most of the big multiwound models start.) or a slightly tougher unit that can't effectively use the ability. (Firewarriors doubling out toughness 3... wooo i guess?) His Fighting Retreat ability also only comes into play if he is your warlord. (I'm not particularly fond of giving my opponents a practically free warlord kill/point during a game, but then, to each their own i guess.) He also requires the Pathfinder squad you attached him to to be shooting to really take advantage of his ability instead of using marker lights - which as a force multiplier contribute far more to the destruction your army can cause with reliable high powered weapons than his own units shooting will. Oh, and he gives outflank... to the two units in the Tau codex that are least suited for it. So, to review: we have a single fairly fragile unit for between 200 and 250 points - before a potential transport - taking up either HQ/Troop slots, or HQ/FA slots for the chance at slightly better shooting. Yeah, it's pretty easy to see why people aren't taking him.
To sum it all up, the problem with Darkstrider is that he is point/slot inefficient. He's not shooty, supporty, or tough enough to replace any of the other options you can be using your HQ slots for - especially for the cost. If Structural Analyzer actually worked like you think it does he would be an amazing choice but as is that's just not the case. That being said, everything about his kit looks like it should synergize really well with breachers and I expect that we could very easily see him being run with them.
Vineheart01 wrote: Because hes insanely squishy. Pretty much any army can clear a squad of firewarriors and the IC attached in a single turn if they focus enough. Ive never EVER seen Darkstrider get more than 1 turn of shooting before getting wiped off the face of the earth. Thats also why Ethereals are so hard to keep alive without a 'fish around or a broadside unit to attach to and hide behind.
Paying 100pts for something, no matter how strong, isnt worth it when he never survives more than 1 round. T3 4+ armor is really easy to remove, and Darkstrider himself has 5+ armor no invul.
So don't keep him in the open?
Not every army has huge amounts of "Ignores Cover" weaponry.
And really, 100 points for what he is is ABSURDLY cheap. The Structural Analyzer comes into effect even if all he does is Markerlight the target.
Yeah, that does make Darkstrider sound like a pretty good unit when put like that... but it's completely wrong. The wording on the Structural Analyzer is quite specific. The unit targeted by Darkstrider and his unit lower their toughness value by one only for that unit's shooting attack. If it worked as you suggested it would be significantly more useful.
I never suggested that it worked for any other squads...? I'd suggest you read what I posted.
As is, you have a very squishy 100 point character who will either join a very squishy unit for maximized use of his signature system, (Pathfinders for the potential to double out toughness 5 with overcharged ion rifles. Risky but potentially a big payoff since T5 is where most of the big multiwound models start.) or a slightly tougher unit that can't effectively use the ability. (Firewarriors doubling out toughness 3... wooo i guess?)
Yes. You have a "very squishy 100 point character" joining a unit of Pathfinders or Fire Warriors. Which kind of Fire Warriors, a Strike Team or a Breacher Team?
Considering I specifically stated:
Get Darkstrider with a unit of Breachers onto an objective in Cover early on, call down a turret with a Missile Pod. If Darkstrider and his unit get dug in quick enough, then any unit that is Toughness 3(before the Structural Analyser kicks in) that gets targeted is getting doubled out via weapon strength from 6"-15" thanks to his Signature System--and the Missile Pod is going to be doubling out anything that is T4(before SA kicks in) as well.
It should be obvious I'm not referring to either Pathfinders or a Strike Team(which can have Pulse Carbines or Rifles). I suggest you look into what they can do.
His Fighting Retreat ability also only comes into play if he is your warlord. (I'm not particularly fond of giving my opponents a practically free warlord kill/point during a game, but then, to each their own i guess.)
What? It's a "Special Rule" not a "Warlord Trait". If someone is telling you that Fighting Retreat is a Warlord Trait, they're either lying or cannot read.
He also requires the Pathfinder squad you attached him to to be shooting to really take advantage of his ability instead of using marker lights - which as a force multiplier contribute far more to the destruction your army can cause with reliable high powered weapons than his own units shooting will. Oh, and he gives outflank... to the two units in the Tau codex that are least suited for it. So, to review: we have a single fairly fragile unit for between 200 and 250 points - before a potential transport - taking up either HQ/Troop slots, or HQ/FA slots for the chance at slightly better shooting. Yeah, it's pretty easy to see why people aren't taking him.
Because they're hypocrites. They complain that it's ridiculous that Pathfinders need to Markerlight targets instead of utilize the special weapons they can take, so instead of having a designated "Darkstrider Hit Squad"--they complain about the character.
To sum it all up, the problem with Darkstrider is that he is point/slot inefficient. He's not shooty, supporty, or tough enough to replace any of the other options you can be using your HQ slots for - especially for the cost.
Good thing the book is going to become a Decurion styled book, and it's practically guaranteed that he'll show up in a formation with Pathfinders that won't consume HQ slots, huh?
If Structural Analyzer actually worked like you think it does he would be an amazing choice but as is that's just not the case. That being said, everything about his kit looks like it should synergize really well with breachers and I expect that we could very easily see him being run with them.
If you put him into a unit of Breachers and he targets a unit with a Markerlight, Structural Analyzer comes into effect(it's a Shooting Attack).
The Breachers, if able to, would have to fire at the same target since they do not have Split Fire and he does not have a Target Lock.
What that would then mean is that you have a target which is taking Wounds at -1T from the Breachers and their turret/drones while also having a Markerlight token on the target for follow-up attacks from outside units.
JohnnyHell wrote: You have to scream 'AKIRA!' and 'TETSUO!' whilst using those futurebike conversions.
KANEDA!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, assuming that Darkstriders SA rule is the same, breachers and their missile turret will be nice, I guess. But keep in mind we could already use him and Railfinders to IDTEQ characters at AP1.
The extra point of STR from the missile turret doesn't really do much in relation to the SA.
jimkurtjimmy wrote: So if I'm reading this correctly a land raider crusader could kill itself by shooting hurricane bolters at tau on the other side of a shield wall?
Yes, you are correct. However, it's only on successful cover saves (50% chance without Going To Ground) and then only on a six. You're about as vulnerable to massed grav fire as the Tidewall Rampart's shield deflection.
At least RAW you could argue that the units has to be wholly contained within the terrain, so you can't park a Riptide or Stormsurge on it and claim the benefits.
jimkurtjimmy wrote: So if I'm reading this correctly a land raider crusader could kill itself by shooting hurricane bolters at tau on the other side of a shield wall?
No, I don't think so. You can't "wound" a vehicle. It would still need an armor pen roll & the reflected shot doesn't have a strength value.
A few points Kanluwen. First off, you're right about me misunderstanding your point with the Structural Analyzer. I assumed that you were talking about trying to markerlight unit with Darkstrider's in order for another unit to benefit since whenever Tau players talk about markerlights this is how we are usually talking about them. It's one of the many reasons drone's became such a popular markerlight platform. You can put target locks and missile pods on any suits attached to the squad except for the drone controller so that minimal firepower from the squad is wasted on a unit you are markerlighting for the most suitable platform to actually kill. So, in this case, my own experience was creating a bias in how i interpreted your sentence. Apologies. Seconds, Holy Crap. You're right about Darkstrider's Fighting Retreat isn't a warlord trait. I'll admit that that is news to me because I had the character explained to me by a friend who likes using him and, apparently, needed to do more reading on him myself. So, you just gave me a much happier friend today. Thank you.
Now, on to your actual points. Most of them are just speculation on the fact that he will synergize very well with Breacher squads when they come out. Since I already agreed to this assessment in my initial post I don't see what the point of continuing to say this is. In addition, your idea that he could end up in a Decurion style formation is just speculation. I'll point you to your own advice you have consistently given out in this thread: "Don't make judgments on a units perceived weakness or strength unit we see the whole codex." I'm not trying to say whether or not Darkstrider will be taken with what has yet to come. My entire point was about why he isn't getting taken right now.
Now, as to the one point you made about his power level at the moment. It's not "hypocritical" for players to to recognize that pathfinders are more efficient use of points when markerlighting than when shooting. In fact, it's exactly the behavior that we expect good players to have. Unless you really like a unit/character - or you feel like running a fluffy list - warhammer 40k is a game of points efficiency. It's about how well your (insert the game's point limit) list can match up to your opponents. Players are expected to use their points in an efficient manner if they want to achieve victory. This is Darkstrider's problem. It's not that he is "bad." It's that, within the Tau codex as it currently exists, there are many places where you can use 100 points (not to mention the cost of his unit) to much greater effect. To use an economics analogy: his opportunity cost is too high. This is of particular importance to the Tau. Most armies get 3 phases of the game to use against their opponent. Tau get 1. This means that they need either incredibly high staying power, (Necrons) or incredibly high offensive power to make up for it. A key component of this is target prioritization. You need to put their shots where they will do the most good. The problem with Darkstrider is that his best case use scenario inherently undermines this idea. Either you are shooting a bunch of markerlights into a unit you are already trying to kill with his unit, or you are wasting a bunch shots that could be markerlights for better weapons than their own. Darkstrider does not have an optimal use scenario right now, both ways of using him have inherent disadvantages.
To be honest, I'm not even sure that Breachers will find much use with him unless he changes as well. Even though them seem practically tailored to use his rules effectively, he's still a 100 point character. Think of it this way: throughout this thread we have had people predicting that the usefulness of Breachers will be explicitly dependent on the price of the Devilfish. Given that they are saying a 15-20 point cost on a transport can make or break this unit, do you really think that people are going to want to throw 100 more points into it?
jimkurtjimmy wrote: So if I'm reading this correctly a land raider crusader could kill itself by shooting hurricane bolters at tau on the other side of a shield wall?
No, I don't think so. You can't "wound" a vehicle. It would still need an armor pen roll & the reflected shot doesn't have a strength value.
jimkurtjimmy wrote: So if I'm reading this correctly a land raider crusader could kill itself by shooting hurricane bolters at tau on the other side of a shield wall?
No, I don't think so. You can't "wound" a vehicle. It would still need an armor pen roll & the reflected shot doesn't have a strength value.
It causes a wound OR a glance. So it does work
Apologies. It does indeed, I obviously overlooked that.
The AP matters vs infantry, for example Terminators would get their 2+ Armor vs their Stormbolters, but a Tactical marine wouldn't get his 3+ vs a plasma shot.
Automatically Appended Next Post: One thing to notice about the shieldline is that if the shooter and the target are both within 1" of the shieldline wall, they both get to bounce shots back.
The AP matters vs infantry, for example Terminators would get their 2+ Armor vs Stormbolter.
Right, and my point--again--is that it's a useless tidbit when placed where it is(directly behind the notation of an automatic Glancing Hit).
Either it's meant to be "Strength and AP value"(which is present on the Kastelan Robots' deflection rule) or it's meant to be just AP or just Strength; and in either of those cases it would make it effectively useless against some vehicles.
We REALLY don't need more crap in the game that brings us to the whole "Glance vehicles to death" situation though.
What I'm saying is that the lack of the Strength value notation either makes this thing INCREDIBLY broken or having a huuuuuuuge omission that will affect gameplay in a very negative way.
If it really is meant to lack the Strength value notation, it should be reading like so:
On a roll of 6 the attacking unit suffers 1 Randomly Allocated Wound(resolved at the same AP as the attacking weapon) or a Glancing Hit.
That makes it absolutely, unambiguously clear that yes it is meant to do that.
Having strength and AP does matter, AP for determining armour saves and Strength for determining instant death. Vs vehicles, just a glance, but in this case we don't have a strength, so its just a wound
jimkurtjimmy wrote: So if I'm reading this correctly a land raider crusader could kill itself by shooting hurricane bolters at tau on the other side of a shield wall?
What I'm saying is that the lack of the Strength value notation either makes this thing INCREDIBLY broken or having a huuuuuuuge omission that will affect gameplay in a very negative way.
If it really is meant to lack the Strength value notation, it should be reading like so:
On a roll of 6 the attacking unit suffers 1 Randomly Allocated Wound(resolved at the same AP as the attacking weapon) or a Glancing Hit.
That makes it absolutely, unambiguously clear that yes it is meant to do that.
It is unambiguously clear. You have to remember, GW rules writers don't speak English. They speak British.
What I'm saying is that the lack of the Strength value notation either makes this thing INCREDIBLY broken or having a huuuuuuuge omission that will affect gameplay in a very negative way.
If it really is meant to lack the Strength value notation, it should be reading like so:
On a roll of 6 the attacking unit suffers 1 Randomly Allocated Wound(resolved at the same AP as the attacking weapon) or a Glancing Hit.
That makes it absolutely, unambiguously clear that yes it is meant to do that.
It is unambiguously clear. You have to remember, GW rules writers don't speak English. They speak British.
And yet in the other instances where there are these deflection rules they specifically state Strength and AP values of the attack.
Which also means someone has access to the WD with this picture in it.
I'm sorry if I haven't been following this thread as closely as I could be but is this a new codex? I don't remember what the original limited edition looked like, but has there been any rumours about an upcoming codex for Tau?
jimkurtjimmy wrote: So if I'm reading this correctly a land raider crusader could kill itself by shooting hurricane bolters at tau on the other side of a shield wall?
Well, assuming it has four hits it's a 1/20736 chance, but it could.
I'm sorry if I haven't been following this thread as closely as I could be but is this a new codex? I don't remember what the original limited edition looked like, but has there been any rumours about an upcoming codex for Tau?
It's definitely the new one, especially as the bottom cover shows a breacher.
I knew it wasn't likely. Was just saying if you had something like a land raider with only one hull point left you wouldnt drop any mass fire on this thing
jimkurtjimmy wrote: I knew it wasn't likely. Was just saying if you had something like a land raider with only one hull point left you wouldnt drop any mass fire on this thing
Well, it is badly designed. The reflection mechanic isn't, in it'self, broken, but auto wound/glace is. If it would just inflict a single hit with the same profile, it would be fine.
How will blast weapons work with this thing, each wound is reflected back to it? Or what about stuff like the earth-shaker, the idea of shrapnel flying back across the battlefield to blow it up is as ridiculous as it is hilarious.
Except the "derpy robots rule" actually requires you to Wound/roll for Armor Pen with the S/AP values of the weapon and doesn't count for Psychic Shooting Attacks, Template weapons, and Blasts.
Maybe it shoots energy back instead of the original projectile?
If that were the case, it would be given a set profile.
I get a feeling its an energy reflector/redirector. It gets hit with an attack and attempts to gather and convert its energy into a reflected beam attack.
Gamgee wrote: I get a feeling its an energy reflector/redirector. It gets hit with an attack and attempts to gather and convert its energy into a reflected beam attack.
At least that's how I imagine it working.
Yeah...that's a poor explanation for poor rules-writing.
"We shot bolter rounds at it and it blew up a Land Raider!"
Co'tor Shas wrote: How will blast weapons work with this thing, each wound is reflected back to it? Or what about stuff like the earth-shaker, the idea of shrapnel flying back across the battlefield to blow it up is as ridiculous as it is hilarious.
Wooow. I hadn't thought about that... Well that makes no freaking sense whatsoever now does it.
Even if it didnt have the restricted range of 36" but still shot back with the identical strength profile, it wouldnt be as bad.
Granted, its 6s that trigger it so its not auto-death to shoot into it without ignores cover. But its a dice game, i can totally see someone getting absolutely ravaged by this thing because the Tau player got lucky and rolled a bunch of 6s in one shooting round.
Thats really the only rule thats absurdly broken. The rest of it is about what you'd expect from it - pretty good but not outright insane. That reflect rule needs to change...
Blast weapons would reflect every successful cover save like usual. Meaning if you Barrage into the center of it, no cover no reflect, but if you originate outside of it or hit with normal blasts then every model that takes a cover can reflect the damage. The way its worded right now. Again, that rule alone needs to change. Rest is perfectly fine.
if a model is within 1" of the shieldwall, but is on a droneport or gunrig (but the shieldwall is between it and an attacker) it actually gets two separate rolls to deflect shots as it uses two different rules. Probably not RAI but definitely RAW.
You make the cover save, roll once for the "Field Network" rule, then roll another die for the "Tidewall Field" rule.
Willing to bet Kroot/Vespid are completely untouched. They arent Gundam suits after all.
As awesome as the new suits are, we already know the Kroot have monstrous creatures roaming around. Be nice if we could see them fleshed out and have some Knarlocs lurking about (with rules that actually work....)
Buzzdady wrote: if a model is within 1" of the shieldwall, but is on a droneport or gunrig (but the shieldwall is between it and an attacker) it actually gets two separate rolls to deflect shots as it uses two different rules. Probably not RAI but definitely RAW.
You make the cover save, roll once for the "Field Network" rule, then roll another die for the "Tidewall Field" rule.
Not RAI or even RAW.
Spoiler:
If you make a successful cover save for a model on a Tidewall Gunrig or Droneport while one of the Shieldlines' barriers is between the attacker and the target, you would get one attempt to utilize the rule.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pizzaguardian wrote: Well the reflect is still dumb, as dumb as it was on the cult mech monstrous creatures.
Oh please. Do you even know what the Kastelan Robot's "Repulsor Field" rule even does?
Because I can tell you right now that there is NOTHING broken about it.
The Tidewall's Field Network/Shieldline? It's going to be applicable to Psychic Powers and Blast weapons that don't have "Ignores Cover".
pizzaguardian wrote: Well the reflect is still dumb, as dumb as it was on the cult mech monstrous creatures.
Oh please. Do you even know what the Kastelan Robot's "Repulsor Field" rule even does?
Because I can tell you right now that there is NOTHING broken about it.
The Tidewall's Field Network/Shieldline? It's going to be applicable to Psychic Powers and Blast weapons that don't have "Ignores Cover".
Specifically, Psychic Powers that roll to-hit, so it doesn't affect Psychic Shriek, Novas, or Beam powers. Blast weapons with Barrage can also ignore the Shieldline.
pizzaguardian wrote: Well the reflect is still dumb, as dumb as it was on the cult mech monstrous creatures.
Oh please. Do you even know what the Kastelan Robot's "Repulsor Field" rule even does?
Because I can tell you right now that there is NOTHING broken about it.
Transport embarked squads tend to break this rules interaction with Repulsor fields, though yes, overall I'd agree it's handled much better than this wall thingy.
I'd have zero desire to bother playing with or against this thing. Way too many rules with a whole lot of potential interaction messiness and abuse potential.
jimkurtjimmy wrote: So if I'm reading this correctly a land raider crusader could kill itself by shooting hurricane bolters at tau on the other side of a shield wall?
Looks that way. Hooray for loose wording! Now have whatshisface shoot the railgun to instakill T6 models with his -1 T ability.
jimkurtjimmy wrote: So if I'm reading this correctly a land raider crusader could kill itself by shooting hurricane bolters at tau on the other side of a shield wall?
Looks that way. Hooray for loose wording! Now have whatshisface shoot the railgun to instakill T6 models with his -1 T ability.
Edit.
Darn autocorrect.
Against most things in the codex this won't happen, as it only works on cover saves. So everything but Kroot, Ethereals and Pathfinders should be using their normal armor save.
They 100% are new Crisis suits and I say this because if you go on the GW site the 3 pack of crisis suits that have been up for the past entire edition are gone and only the single pack is still up.
jimkurtjimmy wrote: So if I'm reading this correctly a land raider crusader could kill itself by shooting hurricane bolters at tau on the other side of a shield wall?
Looks that way. Hooray for loose wording! Now have whatshisface shoot the railgun to instakill T6 models with his -1 T ability.
Edit.
Darn autocorrect.
Against most things in the codex this won't happen, as it only works on cover saves. So everything but Kroot, Ethereals and Pathfinders should be using their normal armor save.
Why would you use your 4+ armor save on Fire Warriors when you could use your 4+ cover save and potentially glance a vehicle to death?
Additionally, because all of them are Battlefield Debris(Defense Line), you get +2 when you GTG.
jimkurtjimmy wrote: So if I'm reading this correctly a land raider crusader could kill itself by shooting hurricane bolters at tau on the other side of a shield wall?
Looks that way. Hooray for loose wording! Now have whatshisface shoot the railgun to instakill T6 models with his -1 T ability.
Edit.
Darn autocorrect.
Against most things in the codex this won't happen, as it only works on cover saves. So everything but Kroot, Ethereals and Pathfinders should be using their normal armor save.
Why would you use your 4+ armor save on Fire Warriors when you could use your 4+ cover save and potentially glance a vehicle to death?
Additionally, because all of them are Battlefield Debris(Defense Line), you get +2 when you GTG.
Wasn't aware you could choose to use the cover instead of the armor save if they are the same. As far as GTG, that makes you have to snap fire next turn, forcing you to waste markerlights to bring that unit back up to full effectiveness. This could be mitigated for one turn however using the warlord trait that lets you get back up with no penalty, but who knows if that trait will even still exist in a couple of weeks.
Sidstyler wrote:So the terrain wasn't just limited edition, the rules for it are also "pay to win" it seems.
Vaktathi wrote: Transport embarked squads tend to break this rules interaction with Repulsor fields, though yes, overall I'd agree it's handled much better than this wall thingy.
I'd have zero desire to bother playing with or against this thing. Way too many rules with a whole lot of potential interaction messiness and abuse potential.
You want to know my opinion? The "reflecting shots" is a poorly worded gimmick. There are plenty of weapons that can get around both the reflecting and the wall itself, and the fortification is appropriately costed at almost 300 points.
Chances of a Space Marine killing himself with his own bolter on the reflection (counting as rapid-firing): 1 in 27, or just under 4%. Not exactly a massive threat.
EDIT: Mathhammer error. Turns out it's slightly more likely than I thought.
GTG would be useful to help put wounds/hps on pesky fliers... 2+ for a chance to get a 6 for rebound. Ethereal could potentially let you double those snap fired shots the next turn..and MLs currently boost snap shots..
agnosto wrote: GTG would be useful to help put wounds/hps on pesky fliers... 2+ for a chance to get a 6 for rebound. Ethereal could potentially let you double those snap fired shots the next turn..and MLs currently boost snap shots..
Yeah, but do you want to spend 4+ markerlights to get that squad back up to BS 5 where it should be?
The ground to ground for +2 was in the old Aegis Defense Line rules. I forget which specific rule mentioned it but it had to do with the ADL's terrain type, not the ADL specifically.
I dont think the Tidewall has that same classification, neither do i know if that +2 gtg exists since ADL got stripped from the 7th BRB and feth buying another full price book for the limited amount of fortification rules.
EDIT: Nevermind found it. Pg109 in the BATTLEFIELD DEBRIS section under Defense Line:
"A model in cover behind a defense line has a 4+ cover save. If a unit Goes to Ground, then the models from the unit gain +2 to the over save from the defense line rather than +1...." rest goes on about base contact across the wall.
Tidewall says its a Defense Line (and why do they spell it with a c every time...) so it confers a 4+ which goes to a 2+ if you goto ground. I know in 6th it said if you had multiple saves to choose from, pick the highest. But i cant find squat about it in 7th. Only thing i can find that shows if you have equal armor and cover you cant take the cover is Armor doesnt have any word along the lines of "may" while Cover does. The wording in the Armor Saves makes it sound mandatory whether you want to or not.
And its not marine fire thats threatening on the rule's wording, its primarily vehicles since it ignores the weapon strength and just does automatic glancing damage. Its more of an annoyance to number marine squads not a real threat. But it can wipe vehicles fairly well.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: There is a different special rule that allows the 2+ for going to ground, damned if I can remember the name but it isn't on these walls.
Yup. It's part of the rules for Defense Lines. let's run the number again with the 2+ GtG.
Chances of a Space Marine killing himself with his own bolter on the reflection (rapid-firing, 2+ cover save): just under 6.2%. Still not buying the threat from the barrier reflection.
Oh, and as if to add insult to injury, I keep getting e-mails from GW reminding me to complete my order for the Tidewall, which sold out while I was in the process of checking out. I guess it's still somehow showing as being in my basket or something, and it's causing me to get e-mail reminders, even though there's nothing in my basket on the website.
So...anchor a storm surge on the rampart to give him all the shooting buffs, he can move six inches without counting as moving, and get him a bounce back cover save....sounds like they were made for each other hehe
Do we have updates on the Stealth Formation with the Ghostkeel? If anyone could update the front page or at least add everything to a later page it would be great.
Fishboy wrote: So...anchor a storm surge on the rampart to give him all the shooting buffs, he can move six inches without counting as moving, and get him a bounce back cover save....sounds like they were made for each other hehe
Except the stormsurge will be too large to claim a cover save from the shieldwall. 25% is required for defense lines
Vash108 wrote: There is no way it can be auto glances. Every Tau gun line would take one and no one would want to field vehicles fighting it.
It's still 265 points, and only does it on a successful cover save of 6 for models within 1" of it.
Not to mention that it can only cover so many things, and only works as long as the shield walls are between the model and the thing targeting it. Additionally, vehicles can just target other things. Honestly, I just think it's the point cost that makes it not that good, despite it being reasonably strong.
Vash108 wrote: There is no way it can be auto glances. Every Tau gun line would take one and no one would want to field vehicles fighting it.
It's still 265 points, and only does it on a successful cover save of 6 for models within 1" of it.
Not to mention that it can only cover so many things, and only works as long as the shield walls are between the model and the thing targeting it. Additionally, vehicles can just target other things. Honestly, I just think it's the point cost that makes it not that good, despite it being reasonably strong.
People seem to miss the part that shots aren't reflected when you pass a cover save of 6. You grab a bunch of dice equal to the number of successful cover saves and roll them. THESE dice do reflect shots if they roll 6s.
TheNewBlood wrote:
Specifically, Psychic Powers that roll to-hit, so it doesn't affect Psychic Shriek, Novas, or Beam powers. Blast weapons with Barrage can also ignore the Shieldline.
Psychic Shriek still has to roll to hit. It's a witchfire power without the nova/beam types, so need to roll.
So far, the tidewall seems pretty straight forward. I feel it's balanced well, if not slightly too expensive. The reflect mechanic is really not that bad, unless you don't understand how numbers work and are just screaming at your monitor about "AUTOGLANCES WARGARBLE!!1!!" while drops of cheetos and blind rage flavored spit coat everything you own.
Could Pask accidentally blow himself up with his punisher? Sure. Not likely, and there are always other things for pask to shoot at.
I even think the rules are written in a pretty good, not-able-to-be-read-wrong-unless-you're-really-trying way, which is unusual for GW when it comes to something more complex than a shoebox.
I can find only one major problem for far in rules interactions, and that's with barrage.
So, situation. You have some FW standing on the line, and an earthshaker platform lobs a round in front of them from out of LOS. One of the FW makes his cover save, and against probability that shot is reflected. Can the wound be allocated back without LOS?
Also, tactically, jam your ionfinders on here, overcharge everything. Because it says you re-roll 1s to hit, so YES YOU GET TO REROLL THE GETS HOT.
Vector Strike wrote: People seem to miss the part that shots aren't reflected when you pass a cover save of 6. You grab a bunch of dice equal to the number of successful cover saves and roll them. THESE dice do reflect shots if they roll 6s.
TheNewBlood wrote:
Specifically, Psychic Powers that roll to-hit, so it doesn't affect Psychic Shriek, Novas, or Beam powers. Blast weapons with Barrage can also ignore the Shieldline.
Psychic Shriek still has to roll to hit. It's a witchfire power without the nova/beam types, so need to roll.
Psychic shriek ignores cover so who cares anyway.
This thing is too expensive IMHO, at the end of the day it is a 265 point fortification, thats fortress of redemption territory, and it isn't as if it's much smaller, and we know how hard those are to deploy, it also specifically states that ALL sections have to be able to move the distance you are shifting it, so it can't change it's shape once deployed if I am not mistaken, so the biggest perk won't really matter 9 times out of 10.
The reflections are being blown out of proportion. Kill a crusader you say? OK, first find me a solid list still running one lol I agree the rules are written horridly, but lets keep it real, this thing isn't ment to be taken that seriously, anyone wanting to pay over 5 times the cost of an aegis can be my guest lol. Or you could spend those points on a void shield generator which is good, and less.
Looks awesome though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gamgee wrote: Pathfinders are going to be scary on this thing.
lol, really? Explain, because I don't see it. If this thing is able to move them any meaningful distance then I feel bad for your opponent because he's playing against Tau on a naked table. Also how is making them +265pts helping their role?
I think the Tidewall is awesome, but I don't see it showing up quite as often as your bog standard ADL. The ADL has the advantage that its cheep and offers a skyfire weapon platform. The tidewall has neither of these things. It does have a lot of gimmicks but I wonder just how many players would rather have 200ish more points of boots on the ground than those gimmicks.
Vector Strike wrote: People seem to miss the part that shots aren't reflected when you pass a cover save of 6. You grab a bunch of dice equal to the number of successful cover saves and roll them. THESE dice do reflect shots if they roll 6s.
TheNewBlood wrote:
Specifically, Psychic Powers that roll to-hit, so it doesn't affect Psychic Shriek, Novas, or Beam powers. Blast weapons with Barrage can also ignore the Shieldline.
Psychic Shriek still has to roll to hit. It's a witchfire power without the nova/beam types, so need to roll.
Psychic shriek ignores cover so who cares anyway.
This thing is too expensive IMHO, at the end of the day it is a 265 point fortification, thats fortress of redemption territory, and it isn't as if it's much smaller, and we know how hard those are to deploy, it also specifically states that ALL sections have to be able to move the distance you are shifting it, so it can't change it's shape once deployed if I am not mistaken, so the biggest perk won't really matter 9 times out of 10.
The reflections are being blown out of proportion. Kill a crusader you say? OK, first find me a solid list still running one lol I agree the rules are written horridly, but lets keep it real, this thing isn't ment to be taken that seriously, anyone wanting to pay over 5 times the cost of an aegis can be my guest lol. Or you could spend those points on a void shield generator which is good, and less.
Looks awesome though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gamgee wrote: Pathfinders are going to be scary on this thing.
lol, really? Explain, because I don't see it. If this thing is able to move them any meaningful distance then I feel bad for your opponent because he's playing against Tau on a naked table. Also how is making them +265pts helping their role?
Insane cover saves. Some limited extra mobility. Ability for many models to deflect shots back at the enemy. Pathfinders can move and markerlight now meaning I don't have to spend as much as other more expensive options freeing up a lot of my heavy support slots (on a cad) for me to take more Broadsides which go on the defense line. I can deploy closer to the front and move back while still firing guns that otherwise can't. Then a whole bunch of ML drones since they seem to be the only worthwhile choice.
I don't play on an open table, but there is usually enough room to make some movement with this possible.
On top of that throw up a decent turret and the ability to reroll one's on ranged attacks?? Pathfinders can use their special weapons now and its viable thanks to rerolling gets hot.
Alone or even with a little less and it would be alright, but as it is? This all adds up to a lot of extra DPT on an enemy army.
I can slap a Stormsurge or Ta'unar near it so that some attacks hitting it would allow it to also benefit from deflecting shots? Hell yes son. This thing is inanely good. Maybe not in all situations against all enemies, but certainly in a large chunk of situations it's going to be an amazing piece. This and some Ghostkeels? Unstoppable and insane firepower.
Those one's add up Jerry. The odd deflect attack that gets through is going to be adding value on this thing. The extra attack that hits thanks to that reroll is great. The extra units that survive thanks to its insane cover bonus. A 2+ with go to ground. It's a combined effect that makes it insane. There are no rules saying that after set up they have to stick together when moving. Leap frogging cover and terrain all over the place will be a nightmare.
Vector Strike wrote: People seem to miss the part that shots aren't reflected when you pass a cover save of 6. You grab a bunch of dice equal to the number of successful cover saves and roll them. THESE dice do reflect shots if they roll 6s.
TheNewBlood wrote:
Specifically, Psychic Powers that roll to-hit, so it doesn't affect Psychic Shriek, Novas, or Beam powers. Blast weapons with Barrage can also ignore the Shieldline.
Psychic Shriek still has to roll to hit. It's a witchfire power without the nova/beam types, so need to roll.
Psychic shriek ignores cover so who cares anyway.
This thing is too expensive IMHO, at the end of the day it is a 265 point fortification, thats fortress of redemption territory, and it isn't as if it's much smaller, and we know how hard those are to deploy, it also specifically states that ALL sections have to be able to move the distance you are shifting it, so it can't change it's shape once deployed if I am not mistaken, so the biggest perk won't really matter 9 times out of 10.
The reflections are being blown out of proportion. Kill a crusader you say? OK, first find me a solid list still running one lol I agree the rules are written horridly, but lets keep it real, this thing isn't ment to be taken that seriously, anyone wanting to pay over 5 times the cost of an aegis can be my guest lol. Or you could spend those points on a void shield generator which is good, and less.
Looks awesome though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gamgee wrote: Pathfinders are going to be scary on this thing.
lol, really? Explain, because I don't see it. If this thing is able to move them any meaningful distance then I feel bad for your opponent because he's playing against Tau on a naked table. Also how is making them +265pts helping their role?
Insane cover saves. Some limited extra mobility. Ability for many models to deflect shots back at the enemy. Pathfinders can move and markerlight now meaning I don't have to spend as much as other more expensive options freeing up a lot of my heavy support slots (on a cad) for me to take more Broadsides which go on the defense line. I can deploy closer to the front and move back while still firing guns that otherwise can't. Then a whole bunch of ML drones since they seem to be the only worthwhile choice.
I don't play on an open table, but there is usually enough room to make some movement with this possible.
On top of that throw up a decent turret and the ability to reroll one's on ranged attacks?? Pathfinders can use their special weapons now and its viable thanks to rerolling gets hot.
Alone or even with a little less and it would be alright, but as it is? This all adds up to a lot of extra DPT on an enemy army.
I can slap a Stormsurge or Ta'unar near it so that some attacks hitting it would allow it to also benefit from deflecting shots? Hell yes son. This thing is inanely good. Maybe not in all situations against all enemies, but certainly in a large chunk of situations it's going to be an amazing piece. This and some Ghostkeels? Unstoppable and insane firepower.
Those one's add up Jerry. The odd deflect attack that gets through is going to be adding value on this thing. The extra attack that hits thanks to that reroll is great. The extra units that survive thanks to its insane cover bonus. A 2+ with go to ground. It's a combined effect that makes it insane. There are no rules saying that after set up they have to stick together when moving. Leap frogging cover and terrain all over the place will be a nightmare.
It has to stay in the same configuration if you move it.
Also it depends how much of a Stormsurge/Ta'unar it can cover, if it's not 25% then you won't get a cover save (not to mention the amount of ignore cover flying about).
A 5+ cover save isn't much to write home about, unless the Tau codex has ways of buffing cover saves for units that would occupy it. Even going to ground only gives +1 and seriously hampers your shooting. It may be a defence line like an ADL, but it doesn't have the same cover providing rules as a ADL.
A 5+ cover save isn't much to write home about, unless the Tau codex has ways of buffing cover saves for units that would occupy it. Even going to ground only gives +1 and seriously hampers your shooting. It may be a defence line like an ADL, but it doesn't have the same cover providing rules as a ADL.
As Battlefield Debris (Defense Line), it's a 4+ base cover save that improves to 2+ if you gtg.
Vector Strike wrote: People seem to miss the part that shots aren't reflected when you pass a cover save of 6. You grab a bunch of dice equal to the number of successful cover saves and roll them. THESE dice do reflect shots if they roll 6s.
TheNewBlood wrote:
Specifically, Psychic Powers that roll to-hit, so it doesn't affect Psychic Shriek, Novas, or Beam powers. Blast weapons with Barrage can also ignore the Shieldline.
Psychic Shriek still has to roll to hit. It's a witchfire power without the nova/beam types, so need to roll.
Psychic shriek ignores cover so who cares anyway.
This thing is too expensive IMHO, at the end of the day it is a 265 point fortification, thats fortress of redemption territory, and it isn't as if it's much smaller, and we know how hard those are to deploy, it also specifically states that ALL sections have to be able to move the distance you are shifting it, so it can't change it's shape once deployed if I am not mistaken, so the biggest perk won't really matter 9 times out of 10.
The reflections are being blown out of proportion. Kill a crusader you say? OK, first find me a solid list still running one lol I agree the rules are written horridly, but lets keep it real, this thing isn't ment to be taken that seriously, anyone wanting to pay over 5 times the cost of an aegis can be my guest lol. Or you could spend those points on a void shield generator which is good, and less.
Looks awesome though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gamgee wrote: Pathfinders are going to be scary on this thing.
lol, really? Explain, because I don't see it. If this thing is able to move them any meaningful distance then I feel bad for your opponent because he's playing against Tau on a naked table. Also how is making them +265pts helping their role?
Insane cover saves. Some limited extra mobility. Ability for many models to deflect shots back at the enemy. Pathfinders can move and markerlight now meaning I don't have to spend as much as other more expensive options freeing up a lot of my heavy support slots (on a cad) for me to take more Broadsides which go on the defense line. I can deploy closer to the front and move back while still firing guns that otherwise can't. Then a whole bunch of ML drones since they seem to be the only worthwhile choice.
I don't play on an open table, but there is usually enough room to make some movement with this possible.
On top of that throw up a decent turret and the ability to reroll one's on ranged attacks?? Pathfinders can use their special weapons now and its viable thanks to rerolling gets hot.
Alone or even with a little less and it would be alright, but as it is? This all adds up to a lot of extra DPT on an enemy army.
I can slap a Stormsurge or Ta'unar near it so that some attacks hitting it would allow it to also benefit from deflecting shots? Hell yes son. This thing is inanely good. Maybe not in all situations against all enemies, but certainly in a large chunk of situations it's going to be an amazing piece. This and some Ghostkeels? Unstoppable and insane firepower.
Those one's add up Jerry. The odd deflect attack that gets through is going to be adding value on this thing. The extra attack that hits thanks to that reroll is great. The extra units that survive thanks to its insane cover bonus. A 2+ with go to ground. It's a combined effect that makes it insane. There are no rules saying that after set up they have to stick together when moving. Leap frogging cover and terrain all over the place will be a nightmare.
It has to stay in the same configuration if you move it.
Also it depends how much of a Stormsurge/Ta'unar it can cover, if it's not 25% then you won't get a cover save (not to mention the amount of ignore cover flying about).
A 5+ cover save isn't much to write home about, unless the Tau codex has ways of buffing cover saves for units that would occupy it. Even going to ground only gives +1 and seriously hampers your shooting. It may be a defence line like an ADL, but it doesn't have the same cover providing rules as a ADL.
As someone else already corrected you regarding what a Defence Line constitutes regarding cover saves, I'll address your other point. Having seen the Stormsurge model in person and looking at the height of a Tidewall Rampart relative to other models in images (remembering that it floats), I would say that as long as you build your Stormsurges with the anchors deployed (i.e. crouching) they should be 25% obscured. This is quite funny in retrospect for my gaming group as both Stormsurges that have been built so far have been modified to stand up I have no idea how it moving with a Stormsurge on top of it would work but it would be damned amusing. The main use I see for this is solving the range limitations of certain Tau units, namely Broadsides. If you don't get what I mean, Broadsides generally have to be deployed hidden or far back to stay out of range of any dedicated shooting so they don't just get murdered on the first turn against other armies with similar weapon ranges. The benefits from this are pretty obvious in that regard.
Generally speaking, I would like to say "I told you so" regarding it moving but I'm not so prideful. Instead I'm going to have a long chat with my Tau-playing buddies to see if they like it and will report our findings.
Funnily enough the Drone thingy part of the Tidewall Rampart might be its most valuable piece in the context of the current codex, 60 points for a big cover-generator that also provides four Drones - themselves currently valued at 56 points. Paying 4 points over the Drones to get a big source of cover? HELL YES!
First thoughts on rules I've seen. Unless breachers have other rules besides new gun they are only viable as a tax and bubble wrap.
Stormsurge is good. Do NOT get the D weapon. It's not a wraithknight I'm sorry.
Ghostkeel really depends. A melta blast is pretty stupid for 120 pts but it could be could. All equivalent pts costed models with 1 or 2 melta shots suck though so... it could take a bit
The box set with the pirhana and pathfinders is offensive. It's the models everyone already has and they have seen 0 competitive play ever. (Or at least in forever).
jakejackjake wrote: First thoughts on rules I've seen. Unless breachers have other rules besides new gun they are only viable as a tax and bubble wrap.
Stormsurge is good. Do NOT get the D weapon. It's not a wraithknight I'm sorry.
Ghostkeel really depends. A melta blast is pretty stupid for 120 pts but it could be could. All equivalent pts costed models with 1 or 2 melta shots suck though so... it could take a bit
The box set with the pirhana and pathfinders is offensive. It's the models everyone already has and they have seen 0 competitive play ever. (Or at least in forever).
Really excited for the release actually
General consensus seems to line up with what you said, though with two addendums; Breachers could be really good if Devilfishes improve a lot, Ghostkeels are best served taking the Cyclic Ion Raker.
Come to think of it I find the comparison between a Fusion Collider Ghostkeel to a Devil Dog to be....depressing :( More expensive, wayyyyyyy easier to destroy, 6" more on the range and having Fast instead of Jet Pack. Ugh. And that's likely not the best use of a Ghostkeel anyway.
Vineheart01 wrote: Darkstrider is insanely expensive for what he does though. While that sounds nasty giving breachers that shoot n run tactic, ouch the cost.
The gun drone squad idea is just hilarious. I always have a 5man piranha squad so i always have 10 gun drones floating around. Muhahahaha!
Ive already attached random commanders with drone controllers to them and they become insanely scary quick.
Hence why the tactic rests on him getting a big price drop which I think is in order. His rules are so darned good for Breachers specifically, he just needs to be cheaper.
How much cheaper could he get?!
100 points for a BS5 character who brings a Markerlight to the party, has Scout, and makes a unit that he joins able to consolidate D6" after firing Overwatch? And who subtracts a point of Toughness from whatever he and his unit are shooting at, outside of making Snap Shots?
Get Darkstrider with a unit of Breachers onto an objective in Cover early on, call down a turret with a Missile Pod. If Darkstrider and his unit get dug in quick enough, then any unit that is Toughness 3(before the Structural Analyser kicks in) that gets targeted is getting doubled out via weapon strength from 6"-15" thanks to his Signature System--and the Missile Pod is going to be doubling out anything that is T4(before SA kicks in) as well.
I really don't understand why people say he's overcosted for what he brings.
Because youre talking about a list option in comparison to something T3. You should literally never be considering taking something because it's good at "killing tacs or gaunts" if you build lists that way they won't be anywhere near competitive. You basically just gave away an easy slay the warlord your opponent can collect at any point in the game too.
Vector Strike wrote: People seem to miss the part that shots aren't reflected when you pass a cover save of 6. You grab a bunch of dice equal to the number of successful cover saves and roll them. THESE dice do reflect shots if they roll 6s.
TheNewBlood wrote:
Specifically, Psychic Powers that roll to-hit, so it doesn't affect Psychic Shriek, Novas, or Beam powers. Blast weapons with Barrage can also ignore the Shieldline.
Psychic Shriek still has to roll to hit. It's a witchfire power without the nova/beam types, so need to roll.
Psychic shriek ignores cover so who cares anyway.
This thing is too expensive IMHO, at the end of the day it is a 265 point fortification, thats fortress of redemption territory, and it isn't as if it's much smaller, and we know how hard those are to deploy, it also specifically states that ALL sections have to be able to move the distance you are shifting it, so it can't change it's shape once deployed if I am not mistaken, so the biggest perk won't really matter 9 times out of 10.
The reflections are being blown out of proportion. Kill a crusader you say? OK, first find me a solid list still running one lol I agree the rules are written horridly, but lets keep it real, this thing isn't ment to be taken that seriously, anyone wanting to pay over 5 times the cost of an aegis can be my guest lol. Or you could spend those points on a void shield generator which is good, and less.
Looks awesome though.
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Gamgee wrote: Pathfinders are going to be scary on this thing.
lol, really? Explain, because I don't see it. If this thing is able to move them any meaningful distance then I feel bad for your opponent because he's playing against Tau on a naked table. Also how is making them +265pts helping their role?
Insane cover saves. Some limited extra mobility. Ability for many models to deflect shots back at the enemy. Pathfinders can move and markerlight now meaning I don't have to spend as much as other more expensive options freeing up a lot of my heavy support slots (on a cad) for me to take more Broadsides which go on the defense line. I can deploy closer to the front and move back while still firing guns that otherwise can't. Then a whole bunch of ML drones since they seem to be the only worthwhile choice.
I don't play on an open table, but there is usually enough room to make some movement with this possible.
On top of that throw up a decent turret and the ability to reroll one's on ranged attacks?? Pathfinders can use their special weapons now and its viable thanks to rerolling gets hot.
Alone or even with a little less and it would be alright, but as it is? This all adds up to a lot of extra DPT on an enemy army.
I can slap a Stormsurge or Ta'unar near it so that some attacks hitting it would allow it to also benefit from deflecting shots? Hell yes son. This thing is inanely good. Maybe not in all situations against all enemies, but certainly in a large chunk of situations it's going to be an amazing piece. This and some Ghostkeels? Unstoppable and insane firepower.
Those one's add up Jerry. The odd deflect attack that gets through is going to be adding value on this thing. The extra attack that hits thanks to that reroll is great. The extra units that survive thanks to its insane cover bonus. A 2+ with go to ground. It's a combined effect that makes it insane. There are no rules saying that after set up they have to stick together when moving. Leap frogging cover and terrain all over the place will be a nightmare.
It has to stay in the same configuration if you move it.
Also it depends how much of a Stormsurge/Ta'unar it can cover, if it's not 25% then you won't get a cover save (not to mention the amount of ignore cover flying about).
A 5+ cover save isn't much to write home about, unless the Tau codex has ways of buffing cover saves for units that would occupy it. Even going to ground only gives +1 and seriously hampers your shooting. It may be a defence line like an ADL, but it doesn't have the same cover providing rules as a ADL.
As someone else already corrected you regarding what a Defence Line constitutes regarding cover saves, I'll address your other point. Having seen the Stormsurge model in person and looking at the height of a Tidewall Rampart relative to other models in images (remembering that it floats), I would say that as long as you build your Stormsurges with the anchors deployed (i.e. crouching) they should be 25% obscured. This is quite funny in retrospect for my gaming group as both Stormsurges that have been built so far have been modified to stand up I have no idea how it moving with a Stormsurge on top of it would work but it would be damned amusing. The main use I see for this is solving the range limitations of certain Tau units, namely Broadsides. If you don't get what I mean, Broadsides generally have to be deployed hidden or far back to stay out of range of any dedicated shooting so they don't just get murdered on the first turn against other armies with similar weapon ranges. The benefits from this are pretty obvious in that regard.
Generally speaking, I would like to say "I told you so" regarding it moving but I'm not so prideful. Instead I'm going to have a long chat with my Tau-playing buddies to see if they like it and will report our findings.
Funnily enough the Drone thingy part of the Tidewall Rampart might be its most valuable piece in the context of the current codex, 60 points for a big cover-generator that also provides four Drones - themselves currently valued at 56 points. Paying 4 points over the Drones to get a big source of cover? HELL YES!
No please do, I love the feeling of embarassment when I'm wrong Just looked it up and it is as Sinister Samurai said, my bad.
That said, the Riptide and co get a cover save from it as they are MC/GC and due to the wonky rules regarding them (ie a toe in ruins for a 4+) there is no reason why they don't get a 4+ from being behind it.
It still has to stay together. I wasn't entirely wrong.
jakejackjake wrote: First thoughts on rules I've seen. Unless breachers have other rules besides new gun they are only viable as a tax and bubble wrap.
Stormsurge is good. Do NOT get the D weapon. It's not a wraithknight I'm sorry.
Ghostkeel really depends. A melta blast is pretty stupid for 120 pts but it could be could. All equivalent pts costed models with 1 or 2 melta shots suck though so... it could take a bit
The box set with the pirhana and pathfinders is offensive. It's the models everyone already has and they have seen 0 competitive play ever. (Or at least in forever).
Really excited for the release actually
General consensus seems to line up with what you said, though with two addendums; Breachers could be really good if Devilfishes improve a lot, Ghostkeels are best served taking the Cyclic Ion Raker.
Come to think of it I find the comparison between a Fusion Collider Ghostkeel to a Devil Dog to be....depressing :( More expensive, wayyyyyyy easier to destroy, 6" more on the range and having Fast instead of Jet Pack. Ugh. And that's likely not the best use of a Ghostkeel anyway.
I agree I said the same thing to my friend the other day if devilfish and just saw the cyclic ion raker... it's okay. I can see the use now just hard to see how it can be better than broadsides it's less shots per pt and you basically always get them with tankhunter. We'll see. Could be awesome, but I don't really do 24" on Tau. My other armies I do but... I tend to try to guarantee as many shots fired without return fire as possible with Tau by deployment and kiting well. The jetpack nature could compensate we'll see. If it's T5 I'll be a hard sell. Since broadsides should be anyway, but formation rules really could make a big difference
Sidstyler wrote: Oh, and as if to add insult to injury, I keep getting e-mails from GW reminding me to complete my order for the Tidewall, which sold out while I was in the process of checking out. I guess it's still somehow showing as being in my basket or something, and it's causing me to get e-mail reminders, even though there's nothing in my basket on the website.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: There is a different special rule that allows the 2+ for going to ground, damned if I can remember the name but it isn't on these walls.
Yup. It's part of the rules for Defense Lines. let's run the number again with the 2+ GtG.
Chances of a Space Marine killing himself with his own bolter on the reflection (rapid-firing, 2+ cover save): just under 6.2%. Still not buying the threat from the barrier reflection.
And on average the same Marine will kill 0.15 FWs when shooting. So on average a marine firing bolters will barely do more points of damage than what they will lose to their own fire. If you fire with plasma then you will lose more points on average than you kill.
Not sure if this has been pointed out yet by some people must like the new Ethereal as the Infiltration Cadre is sold out on the uk and Japanese sites. Irrespective of how the codex turns out, it looks like the Tau are going to be a hit for GW again. I wonder if this will be enough to offset the AOS failure. I am certain it is not a coincidence that the Tau are coming out now, and space marines came out just before AOS
Frozocrone wrote:No please do, I love the feeling of embarassment when I'm wrong Just looked it up and it is as Sinister Samurai said, my bad.
That said, the Riptide and co get a cover save from it as they are MC/GC and due to the wonky rules regarding them (ie a toe in ruins for a 4+) there is no reason why they don't get a 4+ from being behind it.
It still has to stay together. I wasn't entirely wrong.
Oh sorry if I my wording was a little unclear, the tongue in cheek "I told you so part" was directed at everyone and not just you regarding the whole terrain-moving thing. You weren't majorly wrong or anything, just a few points (the cover save bonus) we had to address so there was no confusion I'm not exactly sure myself how it works with monstrous creatures/gargantuan creatures with regards to defence lines, usually they just need a toe in cover to get a save but defence lines might work differently. If they only need to be standing on/in the Tidewall Rampart then that makes it so darned good for the Stormsurge in particular.
Actually that's something I should bring up for everyone to weigh in on; an Aegis Defence Line has no "piece" that models stand on, they have to stand behind the terrain. The Tidewall Rampart on the other hand is designed for models to stand on it. How does this work with regards to rules for cover saves, does a Monstrous/Gargantuan Creature with part of its base (normally this allows a cover save) on the Tidewall Rampart (the actual elevated parts you are supposed to stand on) get a cover save automatically? I can't think of another precedent so some clarification would be most welcome, cheers.
jakejackjake wrote:I agree I said the same thing to my friend the other day if devilfish and just saw the cyclic ion raker... it's okay. I can see the use now just hard to see how it can be better than broadsides it's less shots per pt and you basically always get them with tankhunter. We'll see. Could be awesome, but I don't really do 24" on Tau. My other armies I do but... I tend to try to guarantee as many shots fired without return fire as possible with Tau by deployment and kiting well. The jetpack nature could compensate we'll see. If it's T5 I'll be a hard sell. Since broadsides should be anyway, but formation rules really could make a big difference
The main draw of the Ghostkeel is its durability, there aren't many units in the game that are so unbelievably resistant to shooting attacks; nothing compares for 130 points. The main things that kill Riptides just bounce harmlessly off of Ghostkeels.
Frozocrone wrote:No please do, I love the feeling of embarassment when I'm wrong Just looked it up and it is as Sinister Samurai said, my bad.
That said, the Riptide and co get a cover save from it as they are MC/GC and due to the wonky rules regarding them (ie a toe in ruins for a 4+) there is no reason why they don't get a 4+ from being behind it.
It still has to stay together. I wasn't entirely wrong.
Oh sorry if I my wording was a little unclear, the tongue in cheek "I told you so part" was directed at everyone and not just you regarding the whole terrain-moving thing. You weren't majorly wrong or anything, just a few points (the cover save bonus) we had to address so there was no confusion I'm not exactly sure myself how it works with monstrous creatures/gargantuan creatures with regards to defence lines, usually they just need a toe in cover to get a save but defence lines might work differently. If they only need to be standing on/in the Tidewall Rampart then that makes it so darned good for the Stormsurge in particular.
Actually that's something I should bring up for everyone to weigh in on; an Aegis Defence Line has no "piece" that models stand on, they have to stand behind the terrain. The Tidewall Rampart on the other hand is designed for models to stand on it. How does this work with regards to rules for cover saves, does a Monstrous/Gargantuan Creature with part of its base (normally this allows a cover save) on the Tidewall Rampart (the actual elevated parts you are supposed to stand on) get a cover save automatically? I can't think of another precedent so some clarification would be most welcome, cheers.
They get the cover save based on the rules for the terrain they are in. if they put a toe in ruins then they get a cover save regardless of whether 25% is covered because the rule for ruins specifies that it doesn't require 25% to be hidden. The tau wall is battlefield debris defense line, so a model needs to be in cover behind it to get the save. To be in cover you need at least 25% of the model hidden unless specifically changed by the terrain rule. Someone reported that the shield wall is tall enough, but we will have to wait and see till someone gets both for comparison to know for sure.
I think GW forgot how they're game works when they wrote the rules for this. Maybe someone in their shipping department wrote them. It should be a building. Right now how do you determine what models are on it when it moves. Like if I put a portion of the base of my broadside on it does it count?
It also sticks out far in front and behind. This matters because if you are in base contact with it and the enemy gets into base contact with the wall opposite you it counts as being in base to base contact with them, but you're actually pretty far apart. Also where does the "base contact" with the wall begin, at the very edge of the tau side with the walkway? In some ways the current rules make it easier to end up in CC when using this. it really should of been a building
@Trystis That's how I thought it should work, that clears it up cheers.
Hey guys, put Darkstrider on the Gunrig and have him shoot the Railgun. If he is allowed to man it and his Structural Analyzer doesn't change, he gets; a Ballistic Skill 5 twin-linked S10 AP1 shot that re-rolls to-wound against monstrous creatures, reduces their Toughness by 1 (which affects Instant Death as well) and thus allows him to inflict Instant Death on Toughness 6 models.
Caederes wrote: @Trystis That's how I thought it should work, that clears it up cheers.
Hey guys, put Darkstrider on the Gunrig and have him shoot the Railgun. If he is allowed to man it and his Structural Analyzer doesn't change, he gets; a Ballistic Skill 5 twin-linked S10 AP1 shot that re-rolls to-wound against monstrous creatures, reduces their Toughness by 1 (which affects Instant Death as well) and thus allows him to inflict Instant Death on Toughness 6 models.
I'm foggy on the rules, but you may not want to have anyone from a unit shoot the gun because they might all have to fire at the same target. Its pretty rare that I would want to shoot fire warriors and a rail gun at the same thing. If you use Darkstrider you can have him on his own operating the gun. Like I said I'm foggy on these rules though.
The Darkstrider trick is purely for monster-hunting, ergo the Fire Warriors aren't exactly wasted there. Otherwise you would just a Fireblade (he has Split Fire if I'm not mistaken) or a regular Fire Warrior.
How do you determine what models are on it? They're standing on it. Did you look at the model? It's got walkways behind the forcefield line and big standing area inside the platforms. Per the BRB, during game setup you and your opponent determine if the sloped part of the ramparts are acceptable for putting models on. Just like you need to determine if models can stand on parapets (the little walls on top of buildings).
Defense line mechanics are not difficult.
And yes, that does make it slightly easier to get into base contact, distance wise, for a charge. It also gives you a more durable firing position, and forces the enemy to charge through cover. Cover that you can move around where you want to.
I can see no advantage in rules clarity from making it a building.
Actually just realized, those poor, poor Tyranids. Skyrays murder Flying Hive Tyrants, then shoot Networked Markerlights at other FHTs in subsequent turns. Darkstrider/unit joined by Darkstrider benefits from Skyfire Markerlights to raise Ballistic Skill and easily get a hit on marked up FHT, proceeds to kill it with no rebuttal (instant Death from S10 against T5 due to Structural Analyzer) if they also have Ignores Cover from enough tokens. Yikes. Better hope you kill his unit quickly.
With the tidewall, suddenly having the Stormsurge remain "stationary" no longer becomes a problem. I just didn't expect the problem to be solved with surfboards. I guess I'm going to start hearing Eureka 7 jokes when the Stormsurge and Tidewall are deployed together to go along with the Gundam jokes.
Except the storm surge doesn't fit on the tide wall so apparently you need to your opponents permission to use it like that. Because defense line mechanics are not difficult.
Anyone in the UK know what day and time the new stuff goes up on the GW websites nowadays ?
I was desperate to get some of that scenery for my bros birthday, but it was gone by the time i looked at 7pm, which I thought was the time it all goes up.
Trystis wrote: Except the storm surge doesn't fit on the tide wall so apparently you need to your opponents permission to use it like that. Because defense line mechanics are not difficult.
The Tidewall has more components than just the shieldlines. I don't see why the Stormsurge can't stand on the Droneport/extra unnamed platform, which can also still move and doesn't need to be attached to the line if you buy an extra.
Better idea(?), have the Stormsurge control a Gunrig so it can move and shoot the twin-linked railgun twice?
Trystis wrote: Except the storm surge doesn't fit on the tide wall so apparently you need to your opponents permission to use it like that. Because defense line mechanics are not difficult.
The Tidewall has more components than just the shieldlines. I don't see why the Stormsurge can't stand on the Droneport/extra unnamed platform, which can also still move and doesn't need to be attached to the line if you buy an extra.
Better idea(?), have the Stormsurge control a Gunrig so it can move and shoot the twin-linked railgun twice?
Oh wow, provided GMCs are allowed to shoot all weapons in your area (which is usually the case and I DO NOT WANT A DEBATE IN THIS THREAD) you can say shoot all of its guns except for one Destroyer Missile/the fourth weapon system and fire the Gunrig and the rest of its guns twice.
Garfy from Tale of Painters has some more pics from the event. There's some close-ups of the Tau conversions I haven't seen posted yet, and the new crisis suits were apparently hiding in the diorama somewhere.
lol, there's even a cool pic of a knight that's been blown to bits, and a crisis suit getting punched in the face by a kastelan robot.
Hi and pleased to join you during these Tau releases.
Following info was posted on Warseer by Archibald_TK. So before one of the mods there goes berserk and burns everything because there are points displayed I'm copying it in a safe place, namely here:
- Commander (apparently with a drone) - 40€, 30£, 50$
- Crisis Battelsuits (3 suits + 6 drones) - 60€, 45£, 75$
- Drones (2 drones) - 9€, 7.7£, 12$
- Warzone Damocles: Kauyon (campaign book) - 60€, 45£, 74$
- Codex Tau (128p) - 39€, 30£, 49.5$
- Tau cards, Raven Guard! cards, also White Scars cards!! for some reason - each 10.5€, 8£, 13.5$
- Commander is 85pts base. Coldstar has no particular rules compared to a Crisis so no +1T sorry. The high yield canon is crap (or should I say crap for that model), 18" S5 AP5 Assault6 TL.
- Crisis suits kit contain 4 of each weapon (except only 3 missiles). Iridium armor is still in the Codex, you can build one of such suits per kit (it the red one we saw in the pictures).
- Kauyon's pictures show two formations: the awesome Shadowstrike Kill Team (2-4 Scouts + 1-5 Vanguards, you chose to fail or succeed reserve rolls for the Vanguards, they don't scatter within 9" of the scouts, they can charge the turn they DS) and Pinion Battle Demi-Company (like a demi company but with scouts that help reserves by accompanying other units to allow them to do a flank attack and can give ignore cover to an unit with 9")
- Codex pictures show 80pts Devilfish and 44pts Pathfinders (minimum unit size of 4)
He's not a rumour guy but a WD guy, acceptable accuracy I'd say. But it's hard to mess up when you're reading a book in front of you I suppose :p
I dont see this fortification formation as being a big deal since I don't think there is a single tournament that allows "networks" of terrain. The novelty will wear off pretty quickly when you realize that you're playing against a huge piece of indestructible terrain (and there is a reason almost no one plays with multiple section fortifications, it's not like Tau is the first to get such an option).
The railgun is really good tho but the rest of the rules are very wonky and show me GW still doesn't understand their own system.
The Tidewall has more components than just the shieldlines. I don't see why the Stormsurge can't stand on the Droneport/extra unnamed platform, which can also still move and doesn't need to be attached to the line if you buy an extra.
Better idea(?), have the Stormsurge control a Gunrig so it can move and shoot the twin-linked railgun twice?
Oh wow, provided GMCs are allowed to shoot all weapons in your area (which is usually the case and I DO NOT WANT A DEBATE IN THIS THREAD) you can say shoot all of its guns except for one Destroyer Missile/the fourth weapon system and fire the Gunrig and the rest of its guns twice.
Can a model normally fire an emplacement as well as its other weapons, or is it an "instead of its other weapons" type clause? Also how the Stormsurge is worded in the codex might be an issue, the "doesn't count as moving but it still moved so therefore it can't x" argument might come up again. If it all checks out though...
Oh wow, provided GMCs are allowed to shoot all weapons in your area (which is usually the case and I DO NOT WANT A DEBATE IN THIS THREAD) you can say shoot all of its guns except for one Destroyer Missile/the fourth weapon system and fire the Gunrig and the rest of its guns twice.
At the open day they stated they were going to amend rules so that GMCs can fire all weapons they have.
I have to say every time something entices me away from Warmachine, GW does their best to feth it up. Cool looking Tau (an army I've tried to start since they first came out in 2001)? Check. Way too expensive, just because? Check (no surprise). Terrain piece that sells out in 10 minutes so people who want to buy it, can't buy it? Check.
WayneTheGame wrote: I have to say every time something entices me away from Warmachine, GW does their best to feth it up. Cool looking Tau (an army I've tried to start since they first came out in 2001)? Check. Way too expensive, just because? Check (no surprise). Terrain piece that sells out in 10 minutes so people who want to buy it, can't buy it? Check.
This company is just insane at this point.
The hh game will sell out in minutes I bet you. It's fine because I don't care. Though from what I'm hearing about the cult box vs (I'm not sure who now) might be in 2 parts and its something ill want and if that sells out ill be kinda irritated
Nilok wrote:With the tidewall, suddenly having the Stormsurge remain "stationary" no longer becomes a problem. I just didn't expect the problem to be solved with surfboards. I guess I'm going to start hearing Eureka 7 jokes when the Stormsurge and Tidewall are deployed together to go along with the Gundam jokes.
Tidewall let the model to be considered stationary to fire, but the model moved in the move phase (when the tidewall moved). So no, I don't see anchored Stormsurges, FW drone turrets or DS8 turrets being usable with this thing.
But you can hide the stormsurge/Tau'nar/Riptide behind the gun rig to get a 4+ cover
Wulfson_40K wrote:The high yield canon is crap (or should I say crap for that model), 18" S5 AP5 Assault6 TL.
- Codex pictures show 80pts Devilfish
So I'm not fielding Coldstar and Devilfish keeps being too expensive. Hope it got something good to justify its cost.
MoD_Legion wrote:What is the point in giving Tau charge after DSlol.
Thing is, a sales model like with the codexes, codecies? various codi would work very well. Collectors edition of the full set, nice resin (FW resin, not Fine Cast) and some nifty little gubbins; followed by a plastic gamer release of individual pieces. That would probably go well. HVM for the mass gamers, and make something special for collectors.
Wulfson_40K wrote: Hi and pleased to join you during these Tau releases.
Following info was posted on Warseer by Archibald_TK. So before one of the mods there goes berserk and burns everything because there are points displayed I'm copying it in a safe place, namely here:
- Commander (apparently with a drone) - 40€, 30£, 50$
- Crisis Battelsuits (3 suits + 6 drones) - 60€, 45£, 75$
- Drones (2 drones) - 9€, 7.7£, 12$
- Warzone Damocles: Kauyon (campaign book) - 60€, 45£, 74$
- Codex Tau (128p) - 39€, 30£, 49.5$
- Tau cards, Raven Guard! cards, also White Scars cards!! for some reason - each 10.5€, 8£, 13.5$
So the crisis commander went from $42 to $50 with the switch to a cheaper material? Remember when Gw used to pass some if the lifetime model production cost savings down to the consumer years ago with switches to plastic? The good old days...but hey I guess we get a drone and some extra dohickies. (And yes I'm aware of initial mould costs which is why I said lifetime cost savings). At least the crisis suits are still reasonablely priced despite improvement.
- Crisis suits kit contain 4 of each weapon (except only 3 missiles). Iridium armor is still in the Codex, you can build one of such suits per kit (it the red one we saw in the pictures).
That would be nice if it was a 1 per squad or even shas'vre only which would allow some cool and a tough bodyguard unit. That of course assumes the iridium upgrade itself didn't get nerfed.
It will be interesting to see whats inside the Tau codex...
I don't think the tidewall will be that good, on an open board it could make some difference... But you can not move it over terrain and many board has a lot of big pieces of terrain....
I wrote a blogg post today about some additional Tau related stuff you can get for your Tau army from other companies if anyone is interested... [url] http://nyxnym.blogspot.se[url]
Just to help clarify something with regards to the Tidewall's rules (if this has already been addressed I apologize). If a shot is reflected back at a unit that can jink (Space Marine Bikers for example) would they be able to jink the reflected shot? If I remember correctly (don't have my rulebook on me atm) the wording for jink is that a unit can jink only if they are declared as the target of a shooting attack. Since the Tidewall reflection is an auto-wound attack at the same AP as the weapon fired, that would mean you couldn't jink against it, as no shooting attack was declared, correct? Just want to clarify that I am reading and understanding the rules here correctly.
Apologies if this is a dupe, but I just got an email from GW confirming that the Tidewall Gunrig, Droneport and Shieldline will all be available to order individually from October 31st onward. It specifically says the kits will not be limited in number.
In other words, exactly like the Wall of Martyrs release.
GI_Redshirt wrote: Just to help clarify something with regards to the Tidewall's rules (if this has already been addressed I apologize). If a shot is reflected back at a unit that can jink (Space Marine Bikers for example) would they be able to jink the reflected shot? If I remember correctly (don't have my rulebook on me atm) the wording for jink is that a unit can jink only if they are declared as the target of a shooting attack. Since the Tidewall reflection is an auto-wound attack at the same AP as the weapon fired, that would mean you couldn't jink against it, as no shooting attack was declared, correct? Just want to clarify that I am reading and understanding the rules here correctly.
Kriswall wrote: Apologies if this is a dupe, but I just got an email from GW confirming that the Tidewall Gunrig, Droneport and Shieldline will all be available to order individually from October 31st onward. It specifically says the kits will not be limited in number.
Excellent news, I see no reason why they would be trying to troll you. I can see some talented people making some excellent Tau fortifications/ cities from these kits.
Kriswall wrote: Apologies if this is a dupe, but I just got an email from GW confirming that the Tidewall Gunrig, Droneport and Shieldline will all be available to order individually from October 31st onward. It specifically says the kits will not be limited in number.
In other words, exactly like the Wall of Martyrs release.
I really want to model some dead Cadians on the Tidewall walls roadkill!
Requizen wrote: Is there anything in the Tidewall's rules that says it's Tau only? I didn't see it in the picture but may have missed it.
Nope. The only fortification in the game that is tied to a specific faction in the Drone Tower Network thing from Forgeworld. It is listed as being a Fortification choice for a Tau Empire army.
As has been mentioned, only Tau Empire models can make use of certain rules associated with the Tidewall, but anyone should be able to take it.
Requizen wrote: Is there anything in the Tidewall's rules that says it's Tau only? I didn't see it in the picture but may have missed it.
Nope. The only fortification in the game that is tied to a specific faction in the Drone Tower Network thing from Forgeworld. It is listed as being a Fortification choice for a Tau Empire army.
As has been mentioned, only Tau Empire models can make use of certain rules associated with the Tidewall, but anyone should be able to take it.
That actually remains to be seen. If it's in the Tau Empire Codex but not Stronghold Assault, that means the argument could be made that it is a Tau Empire specific fortification--meaning it would need to be Allied in and Allies rules would apply.
Kriswall wrote: Apologies if this is a dupe, but I just got an email from GW confirming that the Tidewall Gunrig, Droneport and Shieldline will all be available to order individually from October 31st onward. It specifically says the kits will not be limited in number.
In other words, exactly like the Wall of Martyrs release.
Good to know, as I'm sure I'm about to get nerfed on my order for these.
Also, as a side note, 6 months ago I needed to use up several hundred dollars of GW store support. I decided to do an entire wall of martyrs table. At the time, the basic box of trenches was out of stock. NP, used up the credit getting 2-4 of the other boxes, will just buy a few basic kits when they come back in.
And I waited.....in 6 months that kit, that PLASTIC kit, has not come back in print. I've yet to start on my project.
So while it will be coming out seperate, don't wait forever to pick up what you want to paint. Seems like even a plastic kit doesn't last forever with GW. Which is strange considering how much the upfront costs for plastic molds are.
Caederes wrote: The Darkstrider trick is purely for monster-hunting, ergo the Fire Warriors aren't exactly wasted there. Otherwise you would just a Fireblade (he has Split Fire if I'm not mistaken) or a regular Fire Warrior.
So take a 265 pt structure, add a 100 pts character that requires a min 44 point unit..... That is way to expensive for a gimick.
Also, not sure how people are claiming a storm surge/ T'aunar get 25% blockage. 25% of the height is not 25% the model lol. Even if it floats and covers up to the knee of that thing, it clearly isn't 25% of the mass of those models which are mostly upper body.
The wall looks dope but is seriously over rated. I advise people that think it is good to pick up stronghold assault, there are FAR better options for less points that you can always use the wall parts as. If you want a save and a better view of the table for your storm surge just save 165 pts and get a skyshield for example. It's a 4+ invuln save and a 4" boost in height lol.
vitae_drinker wrote: I don't think it's badly designed. I think it's no worse than a lot of the craziness that goes on in 40k.
You don't think something which is basically negligible for infantry but deadly to vehicles is badly designed?
Kind of reminds me of the shield technology from Dune. "The slow blade penetrates."
Haywire is basically negligible for Infantry, but deadly to vehicles. That doesn't mean Haywire is badly designed. This thing might be designed to give vehicles pause.
vitae_drinker wrote: I don't think it's badly designed. I think it's no worse than a lot of the craziness that goes on in 40k.
You don't think something which is basically negligible for infantry but deadly to vehicles is badly designed?
Kind of reminds me of the shield technology from Dune. "The slow blade penetrates."
Haywire is basically negligible for Infantry, but deadly to vehicles. That doesn't mean Haywire is badly designed. This thing might be designed to give vehicles pause.
You've read the fluff part for it, right?
It's not. It literally just bad because of the wording. Auto-Glancing Hits is terrible writing.
Can't you always just not shoot at the units on the Tidewall with vehicles? Looking at pictures of the wall, it doesn't seem to be big enough to house any real AT threats (unless there's a way to squeeze Broadsides on there). Anything with AV11 or better can probably just ignore whatever is on there. The only real AT weapon present on it is the Railgun, but that's gonna have the same problems as a Hammerhead; a single S10 shot simply is not a reliable form of AT, even with twin-linked and tank hunter.
This wall is gonna murder your vehicles? (It won't mind you as the odds are being greatly overplayed in this thread, you need to make a successful cover save, then for each cover save made you roll a d6 and on a 6 it gets reflected). Then just don't shoot at units on the wall with your vehicles, it's that simple. Using Land Raiders? Just drive up to the wall, disembark your melee beatstick inside, and charge over the wall. Or, you know, just drive AROUND the wall. It can move 6" a turn yes, but unless the Tau player uses it to castle up in a corner (at which point you just ignore him and play the objectives and win) there will always be a way around the Tidewall to hit units from behind. And of course barrage and ignore cover are still things in this game.
Is the Tidewall good? Maybe, I'm not gonna make that call until I pick mine up and try it out, see what I can do with it. Is it OP? Hell no, it's a fortification with a couple gimmicks, one of which is incredibly unlikely to actually do anything but may result in hilariously causing a Land Raider to kill itself. For 265 points, this thing is fine.
The sheer fact that it cant go over terrain (must move in open terrain) makes me think its a red herring to your list. Sounds broken as balls, but the reflect thing is unlikely and its movement SHOULDNT do more than shimmy around if you actually play with terrain that doesnt favor static gunlines with a clear shot of the entire battlefield.
Though i find it funny it has no profile to be destroyed, outside the gun of course.
its a bit silly that the sheild makes things like bolters able to glance out land raiders...
should have just said at the str of the gun being shot, or set it at a set str value.
also, its BUT LOADS of dice as its not "on a sucessfull cover save of 6" it is RAW worded as for every single sucessfull cover save, you then roll an additional D6 and on a 6 it reflects.
Glad I still have all this ignores cover stuff around because of eldar.
Red Corsair wrote: The wall looks dope but is seriously over rated. I advise people that think it is good to pick up stronghold assault, there are FAR better options for less points that you can always use the wall parts as. If you want a save and a better view of the table for your storm surge just save 165 pts and get a skyshield for example. It's a 4+ invuln save and a 4" boost in height lol.
Yes, I totally agree. I love the Tidewall, and its rules are *cool*, but most of the fortifications in Stronghold Assault are very strong, and cheaper, points-wise. In a lot of ways, it reminds me of Fortress of Redemption.
Also: Skyshield is awesome! Most people do not realize, looking at it in a photo, that this is a 4++ 75 point fortification that is significantly larger than a 1'x1' GAME TILE. You can deploy it anywhere on your half of the table (like tidewall), including encroaching or nearly wholly on your enemy's half. It's not quite 4" height boost, though, I think, though it comes close. Definitely a plus to give Stormsurge or Ta'unar a booster seat!
I think the "Tidewall can move" is not really a thing in most competitive games. There is enough terrain on the field that sure, it can move, but not enough to matter. Where that will excel is in scenario games, where you specifically create a path for Tidewall to advance, and perhaps play the game in the long direction of the table.
The next white dwarf of course. They showed off that the commander is 85 points, the cold star has zero additional rules, its burst cannon is 5/5 with 6 shots, and an 80 point devilfish.
Iridium armor is still in at least. Cool right? Right? :(
I want to know the thought process behind the devilfish.
Executive 1 "Why aren't the Devilfish kits selling?"
Executive 2 "Nobody uses them."
Executive 1 "Why don't they use them?"
Executive 2 "The rules are crap."
Executive 1 "I have an idea!"
Executive 2 "stay the course?"
Exectivue 1 "Stay the course"
They both then put in ear plugs and hide under the covers until sales improve.
Figured the burst cannon was just a 6shot variant. Still, 6 shots at BS5 is nothing to scoff at. Then again i would rather give him dual plasmas or an airburster.
Really really sucks he isnt T5 with the coldstar suit and cant get iridium. If he fails a grounding test and then fails a 4++ save, dead.
Still going to use him because hes fun sounding.
Gamgee wrote: The next white dwarf of course. They showed off that the commander is 85 points, the cold star has zero additional rules, its burst cannon is 5/5 with 6 shots, and an 80 point devilfish.
Iridium armor is still in at least. Cool right? Right? :(
Right, so a bunch of stuff is unchanged, a new thing we've known is useless for a week is useless... And you start yelling about nerfs and posting huge crying cartoon animal reaction images?
I mean hell, the Coldstar is just a unit upgrade, it's not very important that it isn't good, just mildly disappointing.
Gamgee wrote: The next white dwarf of course. They showed off that the commander is 85 points, the cold star has zero additional rules, its burst cannon is 5/5 with 6 shots, and an 80 point devilfish.
Iridium armor is still in at least. Cool right? Right? :(
Suit commanders are STILL 85pts? And the coldstar thats a silly gimmick is just a silly gimmick? Oh no, the tragedy!
Yes our transport being 80 pts is dumb but really?
It's a nerf not being brought up to that level of power. All the factions should be. Either everything has super good stuff or no one does for balance.
Per the tidewall, be interested to see the costs for individual pieces. Is it going to be like the ADL or Wall of Martyrs?
Retailer I use says there are Raven Guard, Tau and even White Scars datacards coming out. Limited Edition is also apparently at 180.
Interested to hear mikhaila's and other's experience, but they also said GW was not expecting the demand for the tidewall due to cost. Thus, alot of their preorders are getting cut as they are not getting enough of them.
Gamgee wrote: The next white dwarf of course. They showed off that the commander is 85 points, the cold star has zero additional rules, its burst cannon is 5/5 with 6 shots, and an 80 point devilfish.
Iridium armor is still in at least. Cool right? Right? :(
If the rumors are true, we get point costs for the base Commander and point costs for the Devilfish and Pathfinders in the next WD.
We know from previous WD entries (namely, the Breachers) that even where Devilfish are an optional dedicated transport, the point cost was not stated.
Thus, either Pathfinders necessarily come with Devilfish again (...damnit, I sure hope not) or Devilfish are also having their rules previewed in WD.
Honest Question, for which I don't know the answer: When WD has previewed models in the past, have they ever presented the model entirely unchanged?
IF they have presented models unchanged, having the Devilfish's cost (and thus, likely its profile, given the lack of costs in previous Options noted) means little. However, IF they only present models with changes to their rules or new units, THEN it is almost certain that the Devilfish has changed from its previous version.
Would an 80 point devilfish with Sensor Spines and a Disruption Pod default, or with old-school Multitrackers default, or some other combination of existing wargear and/or new options, still not be worth 80 points? Certainly it would be better to start at lower base cost and choose the upgrades we like, but it isn't the same kick in the mouth.
This is all just speculation at this point, though, on both our parts. Let's at LEAST wait until the next WD leak before we sell our army OR claim its place in the latest of codex cheeses.
Me being an IG player, you guys have literally no reason to be sad. At all. You guys are getting all of this new cool stuff. We got a mini dex, a worthless spider pig transport, and an undercosted open topped artillery platform that invalidates 2 of our other heavy support choices in the codex because its so cheap and everything else went up in price. And our tanks suck now. There should not be any whining from tau players at all. You guys have it good.
Devilfish are more trash because we have almost no use for them than anything else. What they are is actually pretty good for the cost. My 'fish rarely die due to 3+ jink and offer a huge mobile wall to get in the way of my opponents and offer tankshock options (yes, it can do that).
Problem is, its almost NEVER advantageous to put firewarriors further than ~8" out from your deployment zone if even that far. Since they cant assault the turn they disembark, they cant even be used as shock troopers to deal with vehicles via EMP grenades.
If they were either Assault for the before mentioned tactic (and Breachers) or werent sealed off so the unit inside could shoot out, you'd probably see them quite a bit.
Gamgee wrote: It's a nerf not being brought up to that level of power. All the factions should be. Either everything has super good stuff or no one does for balance.
Not some people have some and others don't.
Or maybe we shouldn't base the power level off of the one codex that is blatantly broken above all others. I'd rather have an outlier than an arms race.
Gamgee wrote: The next white dwarf of course. They showed off that the commander is 85 points, the cold star has zero additional rules, its burst cannon is 5/5 with 6 shots, and an 80 point devilfish.
Iridium armor is still in at least. Cool right? Right? :(
Gamgee wrote: The next white dwarf of course. They showed off that the commander is 85 points, the cold star has zero additional rules, its burst cannon is 5/5 with 6 shots, and an 80 point devilfish.
Iridium armor is still in at least. Cool right? Right? :(
nope. According to BoLS it directly from the codex
They actually responded regarding the GMC weapon limits? Ive emailed them multiple times before GMC even affected me (since i still kinda want a gargantuan squiggoth lol) because it was such an annoying topic.
Garg Squiggoth has a ton of small arms and pretty much nothing else. If it could only fire 2 guns, why the hell does it have so many lobbas/bigshootas?
Thats why my friends and i always ruled they fire everything, since everything except a Daemon GMC is loaded with small arms and has no rule to fire them as one gun.
It's like... It's like GW actually cares about their game all of a sudden with this balanced Tau release and FAQ promises.
Hahaha hahaha oh gosh that's amusing.
But saying this I had a nice conversation with a gal from head office about Adeptus Sororitas. She said they should appear but didn't know when. It felt like a stock answer but it didn't come of that way
I'm not really worried about Tau not changing all that much (Vespids and Kroot are a different story), as it's already a tier 1.5 army that gets new toys in the form of the Ghostkeel and Stormsurge.
The only thing really keeping Tau from being tier 1 is that they don't have an easy way to deal with deathstars.
While I DO think the Devilfish is POSSIBLY slightly overpointed (65-80pts is where I see it's value, so to me it's teetering on the upper end of the range that t I feel is a fair point cost.), I'm kind of glad. I made my gaming reputation using mobile Tau back BEFORE the days of Fish of Fury was even a thing...and remember sadly the sudden Great Good Bandwagon jumpers that came out purely because of a fuzzy game mechanic.
Especially with a new Close ranged FireWarrior unit, I'm especially glad that they didn't throw out a 35 pt Devilfish so I can hear opponents Gripe and spin conspiracy theories about Devilfish ONLY got cheaper to sell Breacher FW teams. They remain interesting instead of OP. I'm considering making a Breacher intensive force. (because they fit my old school of play and have been looking for Firewarriors to get some new Zeal and this is as close as I'll get to it likely.)
So if that pushed Min-Max Tau players into not swarming tables all over America with them and mine seem more unique...Awesome!
Do we know at this point if the FW's DS8 Support Turret is Breachers-Only, or is available to regular FW Striker teams as well? (I'm actually likely to model this as an Aerial drone, but has a silhouette groundside that mirrors the actual models shape for gaming purposes.)
Do we know at this point if the FW's DS8 Support Turret is Breachers-Only, or is available to regular FW Striker teams as well? (I'm actually likely to model this as an Aerial drone, but has a silhouette groundside that mirrors the actual models shape for gaming purposes.)
I think someone said there is a pic of them with the other unit type.
Honestly no stats and points really matter. Formations and Detachment rules are all that matter.
Honestly, this. With the exception of Eldar (who are always the exception when you get right down to it) the latest batch of codices weren't amazing or OP because of new units or new rules. What made them awesome were the formation and detachment bonuses. Necrons didn't become one of the top 3 armies because RP got changed to a 5+ super FNP, they got there because the special rules for Decurion and the new formations made them unkillable. Space Marines aren't powerful because they can now squadron their tanks or because Devastators can now take Grav, they're powerful because they get free transports, are battle brothers with half the armies in the game, and again got good special rules with their formations. Ad Mech aren't good because they are new models and units, they're good because they can use a detachment to get all their upgrades for free, and again are BB with half the armies in the game. Eldar are the only exception to this trend because they got heavy weapons on all their bikes and got D weapons everywhere, but even they are only truly as powerful as they are because, again, their War Host and formation special rules are awesome.
Everything we have seen thus far for Tau has been in a vacuum. We have made guesses as to how everything will work in the new codex, but with the information we have currently we are in no position to judge the power of new Tau. Tau are among the armies most reliant on synergy within the codex. A Riptide is only good with certain upgrades and ML support, otherwise it's just a very survivable model that will never hit a target. Broadsides are only really good when coupled with a buffmander and/or MLs. Without seeing the rest of the codex and what has changed, we have no idea how good the Stormsurge, Ghostkeel, Breachers, Tidewall, and Coldstar actually are. This goes double now that we have formations and a Tau Decurion to look forward to. All it takes is a single special rule or buff (IE, 3 Breacher squads w/ Devilfish get their range bands doubled on the turn they disembark or something of some such nature) to take a unit that in a vacuum is mediocre at best and make them amazing or even gamebreaking.
TL : DR Tau are completely reliant on a synergetic army list to function on the table at all. To analyze the overall power and effectiveness of individual units (and through that make assumptions about nerfs or buffs to the army) without seeing the entire new codex is not just stupid, its laughable.
Honestly no stats and points really matter. Formations and Detachment rules are all that matter.
Honestly, this. With the exception of Eldar (who are always the exception when you get right down to it) the latest batch of codices weren't amazing or OP because of new units or new rules. What made them awesome were the formation and detachment bonuses. Necrons didn't become one of the top 3 armies because RP got changed to a 5+ super FNP, they got there because the special rules for Decurion and the new formations made them unkillable. Space Marines aren't powerful because they can now squadron their tanks or because Devastators can now take Grav, they're powerful because they get free transports, are battle brothers with half the armies in the game, and again got good special rules with their formations. Ad Mech aren't good because they are new models and units, they're good because they can use a detachment to get all their upgrades for free, and again are BB with half the armies in the game. Eldar are the only exception to this trend because they got heavy weapons on all their bikes and got D weapons everywhere, but even they are only truly as powerful as they are because, again, their War Host and formation special rules are awesome.
Everything we have seen thus far for Tau has been in a vacuum. We have made guesses as to how everything will work in the new codex, but with the information we have currently we are in no position to judge the power of new Tau. Tau are among the armies most reliant on synergy within the codex. A Riptide is only good with certain upgrades and ML support, otherwise it's just a very survivable model that will never hit a target. Broadsides are only really good when coupled with a buffmander and/or MLs. Without seeing the rest of the codex and what has changed, we have no idea how good the Stormsurge, Ghostkeel, Breachers, Tidewall, and Coldstar actually are. This goes double now that we have formations and a Tau Decurion to look forward to. All it takes is a single special rule or buff (IE, 3 Breacher squads w/ Devilfish get their range bands doubled on the turn they disembark or something of some such nature) to take a unit that in a vacuum is mediocre at best and make them amazing or even gamebreaking.
TL : DR Tau are completely reliant on a synergetic army list to function on the table at all. To analyze the overall power and effectiveness of individual units (and through that make assumptions about nerfs or buffs to the army) without seeing the entire new codex is not just stupid, its laughable.
This.
The people that are crying its the end of the world and tau nerf just need to stop and take a breath. Wait for the codex, wait for play testing, just relax and wait.
To those who were wondering about the Ghostkeel's cockpit:
I finished my stormsurge and started assembling the Ghostkeel. The "doors" used to cover up the pilot are indeed hinged even though the instructions doesnt really convey that very well to me. Though the front part that folds down tends to fall open alot. Presumably a bit of paint friction will fixt that though.
The mode is insanely detailed too. Almost to the point where i feel like i need to paint it on the sprue lol
Gamgee wrote:First codex leaks are out. NERFS FOR EVERYONE!!!! That and still an 80 point devilfish.
:(
Our formations are going to have to be broken as (bleep) to help us out.
Gamgee wrote:The next white dwarf of course. They showed off that the commander is 85 points, the cold star has zero additional rules, its burst cannon is 5/5 with 6 shots, and an 80 point devilfish.
Iridium armor is still in at least. Cool right? Right? :(
Gamgee wrote:It's a nerf not being brought up to that level of power. All the factions should be. Either everything has super good stuff or no one does for balance.
Not some people have some and others don't.
If so many people are telling you to stop over-reacting when we don't have anything close to the full picture, just stop it. It's simply pathetic now. You should cease acting like a small child having a tantrum.
If the Devilfish is still 80 points but gained the Fast type you can be damn sure it is worth those points, especially if they brought back vehicle Multi-Trackers. Oh, but you didn't stop to consider that, did you? Of course not.
Seriously, how does "the points costs of three units haven't changed and we don't know their stats/wargear/special rules/options" = "NERFS FOR EVERYONE". It's like....wait, what!? I can't even comprehend how stupid that logic is.
On greener pastures, I really wouldn't be surprised if they gave vehicles back Multi-Trackers and Target Locks. It's probably the biggest complaint everyone has about them right now.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: There is a different special rule that allows the 2+ for going to ground, damned if I can remember the name but it isn't on these walls.
Yup. It's part of the rules for Defense Lines. let's run the number again with the 2+ GtG.
Chances of a Space Marine killing himself with his own bolter on the reflection (rapid-firing, 2+ cover save): just under 6.2%. Still not buying the threat from the barrier reflection.
And on average the same Marine will kill 0.15 FWs when shooting. So on average a marine firing bolters will barely do more points of damage than what they will lose to their own fire. If you fire with plasma then you will lose more points on average than you kill.
Yes but Fire warriors suck and I never bring more than ten unless the game is for laughs. How will this help my broadsides is what I'm really thinking. Which it looks like it could
Necrons are not one of the top three armies by the way, They are easily countered by ever book after theirs and anything imperial thats willing ally.
Yeah fire warriors suck. I've lost one out of over 90 games with Tau. I can bring just as much str 5 without them while boosting my average str per shot and my ability to kill things of import. str 5 ap 5 is the new str 4 sp5. It's just not versatile enough. It doesn't kill anything of import unless you use enough and then it becomes not points efficient.
In 7th if you arent doing gladius or lion's blade infantry tactics are you don't play them
If your fire warriors a re a force to be reckoned with then you just play really weak opponents or lists. End of story. There has been no major tourney placement with mor then the min amount. Most have none.
And by the way devilfish are asbolutely awful in the current meta.
Devilfish don't suck because they are over costed. They could be undercosted and still suck if they don't do anything of value. What can they do??? Move fire warriors... lol... claim an objective like every other unit? No even at 60 pts they just arent good because the competitive army lists have 0 use for them. Nothing that matters can go inside and they dont do gak besides.
A sub-10 point Fire Warrior is perfectly fine, the problem is that the army is based around heavy firepower and its most points-efficient sources of that in other slots plus a FSC fill up points really quickly. There's no special "draw" to Fire Warriors in that sense, though you can expect a big boost from their "Decurion" Command Bonus plus the Core formation bonus.
Because I have never lost to them. With Dark Angels new book, Marines new book, eldars new book or Tau. The fact that I can dominate them with Tau with the two only competivie builds Tau currently has is the most telling. They're easy to outplay. 1 or 2 mistakes against a good list and they lose. They're insanely easy to outscore in maelstrom with gladius, and they just cant even shoot at eldar
jakejackjake wrote: Because I have never lost to them. With Dark Angels new book, Marines new book, eldars new book or Tau. The fact that I can dominate them with Tau with the two only competivie builds Tau currently has is the most telling
Irrelevant if you don't tell us what lists you used or what the Necron player used. You're just farting in the wind.
Too much writing. I can tell you if I'm playing necron I'm always confident. I'm also of the opinion that if you're deepstriking over 500 pts of Tau you probably aren't going to win either and that along with Fire warrior spam is really common. I love Tau. I play four armies but Tau are MY army. Their the one I rep and I have to say I just rarely see people building good lists with them.
Regardless DA, Marines, and Eldar can build better lists is what I was saying.
notredameguy10 wrote:You can have 2 max and that will end up being over 300 points of your army (since it appears you need to use the entire tidewall rampart)
Tinkrr wrote:Where are you getting these 55 points from? The initial investment is 265pts and each additional Gunrig is 85pts.
Granted, if I didn't have to buy all the other stuff, an 85 point Gunrig in itself would actually be something I'd consider.
I'm supposing in the future we'll be able to buy Tidewall parts separately, instead of the entire thing - just like the Imperial Defence Network in Stronghold Assault.
I was mistaken with the 55p, but for 85p it's still good and cheaper than a Hammerhead. Still want to get many of them!
Caederes wrote:If the Devilfish is still 80 points but gained the Fast type you can be damn sure it is worth those points, especially if they brought back vehicle Multi-Trackers. Oh, but you didn't stop to consider that, did you? Of course not.
I agree Gamgee is overreacting a bit, but as far as we know the source said the Devilfish wasn't changed. So no Fast or multi-trackers for vehicles. Not a nerf, but underwhelming.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: There is a different special rule that allows the 2+ for going to ground, damned if I can remember the name but it isn't on these walls.
Yup. It's part of the rules for Defense Lines. let's run the number again with the 2+ GtG.
Chances of a Space Marine killing himself with his own bolter on the reflection (rapid-firing, 2+ cover save): just under 6.2%. Still not buying the threat from the barrier reflection.
And on average the same Marine will kill 0.15 FWs when shooting. So on average a marine firing bolters will barely do more points of damage than what they will lose to their own fire. If you fire with plasma then you will lose more points on average than you kill.
Note that every Fire Warrior that you kill guarantees a shot that won't reflect back. Alternatively, shoot with bolt pistols and charge the Fire Warriors to negate the defense line.
Still not buying how the Tidewall is overpowered.
jakejackjake wrote:Necrons are not one of the top three armies by the way, They are easily countered by ever book after theirs and anything imperial thats willing ally.
Yeah fire warriors suck. I've lost one out of over 90 games with Tau
In 7th if you arent doing gladius or lion's blade infantry tactics are you don't play them
If your fire warriors a re a force to be reckoned with then you just play really weak opponents or lists. End of story. There has been no major tourney placement with mor then the min amount. Most have none.
And by the way devilfish are asbolutely awful in the current meta.
Devilfish don't suck because they are over costed. They could be undercosted and still suck if they don't do anything of value. What can they do??? Move fire warriors... lol... claim an objective like every other unit? No even at 60 pts they just arent good because the competitive army lists have 0 use for them. Nothing that matters can go inside and they dont do gak besides.
Sure, at GT-level tournaments Fire Warriors suck. At every other level, they can work wonders. And at the same level, Necrons are really powerful.
Devilfish themselves are not overcosted. It's their weapon upgrades that cost too much.
I'd also like to point out that crisis sts aren actually a pts effiecent model currently in the current power gaming meta. Whil the devilfish is probably costed appropriately but the crisis suits add something to the competitive lists while the devilfish simply dont so the crisis suits while being sub optimal in the current landscape are still a better fit for it than the devilfish that are costed better in a vacuum. One SMS simply isnt enough. It's not that the options are too expensive. It's that the sum of the parts while costed fine doesn't synergize with winning units in the book. GT's aren't professional sports. They're competitve players. If you aren't playing like that you aren't playing competitively. That's what competitive is. Anything else is just something to banter over.. which is fine but it's not real mental competition. Sometimes, most even, those games are the best way to play. Pizza, banter, maybe beer whatever youre in to and just have fun. I was just making a point
Tidewall is not OP I agree In fact I'm not sure if it bad, terrible, or lol did you bring that yet but I know it's not "great". Could be okay. Nothing released for Tau is even at the current power level yet... Chill guys. I'm assuming the formations will take of it
Without formations Tau will definitely be under-powered.
1 millionth edit because the phrase "power level" always reminds me of DBZ. Without formations d
Caederes wrote:If the Devilfish is still 80 points but gained the Fast type you can be damn sure it is worth those points, especially if they brought back vehicle Multi-Trackers. Oh, but you didn't stop to consider that, did you? Of course not.
I agree Gamgee is overreacting a bit, but as far as we know the source said the Devilfish wasn't changed. So no Fast or multi-trackers for vehicles. Not a nerf, but underwhelming.
I checked Archibald_TK's posts and all he has said is that they are 80 points base, but he couldn't make out anything else. Definitely means we will have to wait and see for the codex. Additionally I want to point out that it is also possible the points cost is being misread, the same thing happened with the Stormsurge Blastcannon stats after all so it isn't entirely out of question that the "8" is actually a different number. Not saying it is definitely the case, just saying it might be a possibility.
Caederes wrote:If the Devilfish is still 80 points but gained the Fast type you can be damn sure it is worth those points, especially if they brought back vehicle Multi-Trackers. Oh, but you didn't stop to consider that, did you? Of course not.
I agree Gamgee is overreacting a bit, but as far as we know the source said the Devilfish wasn't changed. So no Fast or multi-trackers for vehicles. Not a nerf, but underwhelming.
I checked Archibald_TK's posts and all he has said is that they are 80 points base, but he couldn't make out anything else. Definitely means we will have to wait and see for the codex. Additionally I want to point out that it is also possible the points cost is being misread, the same thing happened with the Stormsurge Blastcannon stats after all so it isn't entirely out of question that the "8" is actually a different number. Not saying it is definitely the case, just saying it might be a possibility.
Tinkrr wrote:Where are you getting these 55 points from? The initial investment is 265pts and each additional Gunrig is 85pts.
Granted, if I didn't have to buy all the other stuff, an 85 point Gunrig in itself would actually be something I'd consider.
I'm supposing in the future we'll be able to buy Tidewall parts separately, instead of the entire thing - just like the Imperial Defence Network in Stronghold Assault.
I was mistaken with the 55p, but for 85p it's still good and cheaper than a Hammerhead. Still want to get many of them!
If this is true, then I'm completely on board with it as a TL Rail Gun for 85pts isn't that bad. However, you only get the benefit of the Relay if you have a drone port, which is another 60pts, though when you consider the four drones it comes with, the price is more like 12pts for the +1 BS, Tank Hunter, and Monster Hunter, which isn't bad at all. Though there might also be the chance that you only get all of those special rules if you take the "rampart" as a whole, which is the 265pts base thing as opposed to the individual pieces since the "rampart" might be a formation type of thing, where it only get those special rules.
Honestly, the only thing I don't like about it are the shieldlines, not because they aren't good, but because they're expensive.
As a whole the thing seems fine though, it has its strengths and weakness, so it's rather balanced overall. I personally wouldn't take it as it currently, but I can see being convinced otherwise on this one, which means it's an interesting unit, and that's always a good thing.
As I said, it was the Blastcannon stats that got misread. Initially it was thought that the second profile was AP1 and the third profile was AP3, of course as it turned out the numbers were actually AP3 and AP5 respectively.
Note that every Fire Warrior that you kill guarantees a shot that won't reflect back. Alternatively, shoot with bolt pistols and charge the Fire Warriors to negate the defense line.
Still not buying how the Tidewall is overpowered.
Then you have not paid an ounce of attention to what the rule is on the Tidewall.
IF the rule comes into effect via you rolling a 6 after having made a successful Cover Save, then you are automatically Wounding or causing a Glancing Hit. No Strength involved, no Toughness test, etc. It just comes down to the AP value of the weapon--which means that those Space Marines will most likely be just fine, but those vehicles that use low AP low S weapons with a high ROF have now possibly glanced themselves to death.
I have a few tidbits I thought of while I was sleeping (haha!). The Railgun gaining Monster Hunter/Tank Hunter indicates it is not a Destroyer weapon as we thought it might be. Apparently the new Crisis Team allows you to build one Iridium Armour suit per team (model-wise) which would indicate it could be a support system and thus available to the Coldstar.
Kanluwen wrote: but those vehicles that use low AP low S weapons with a high ROF have now possibly glanced themselves to death.
God that's just stupid. How unbelievably incompetent do you have to be to write a rule where vehicles are likely to kill themselves with bounced shots from a weapon that can't normally hurt them? And then somehow let it be published without realizing that you have a problem? There's simply no excuse for this kind of thing.
Note that every Fire Warrior that you kill guarantees a shot that won't reflect back. Alternatively, shoot with bolt pistols and charge the Fire Warriors to negate the defense line.
Still not buying how the Tidewall is overpowered.
Then you have not paid an ounce of attention to what the rule is on the Tidewall.
IF the rule comes into effect via you rolling a 6 after having made a successful Cover Save, then you are automatically Wounding or causing a Glancing Hit. No Strength involved, no Toughness test, etc. It just comes down to the AP value of the weapon--which means that those Space Marines will most likely be just fine, but those vehicles that use low AP low S weapons with a high ROF have now possibly glanced themselves to death.
Yeah, we got it, you think the shield rule is OP. Most people on this thread don't seem to agree with you.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Caederes wrote: I have a few tidbits I thought of while I was sleeping (haha!). The Railgun gaining Monster Hunter/Tank Hunter indicates it is not a Destroyer weapon as we thought it might be. Apparently the new Crisis Team allows you to build one Iridium Armour suit per team (model-wise) which would indicate it could be a support system and thus available to the Coldstar.
1 Iridium per team would be interesting, particularly if its a support vs signature system now.
Or if you could bring a whole team of crisis suits with Iridium... Hmmmmm.....
Quite literally the ONLY thing that makes me think the tidewall isnt garbage is the fact that it can possibly reflect-kill a vehicle. Rest of it is either soso or "its good" - the movement might as well not exist except in scenarios.
Now if it moved like a Skimmer where it went over all terrain including impassible, that would be kinda....busted lol
Caederes wrote: Apparently the new Crisis Team allows you to build one Iridium Armour suit per team (model-wise) which would indicate it could be a support system and thus available to the Coldstar.
I fear it will be one of these items that won't appear in the support system list for all to use but be more like "leader can buy it for XXpts" in the unit entry.
Note that every Fire Warrior that you kill guarantees a shot that won't reflect back. Alternatively, shoot with bolt pistols and charge the Fire Warriors to negate the defense line.
Still not buying how the Tidewall is overpowered.
Then you have not paid an ounce of attention to what the rule is on the Tidewall.
IF the rule comes into effect via you rolling a 6 after having made a successful Cover Save, then you are automatically Wounding or causing a Glancing Hit. No Strength involved, no Toughness test, etc. It just comes down to the AP value of the weapon--which means that those Space Marines will most likely be just fine, but those vehicles that use low AP low S weapons with a high ROF have now possibly glanced themselves to death.
Okay then. Let's look at a worst-case scenario: A Vyper (2HP) with Scatter Laser and Shuriken Cannon (seven S6 shots) fires at Fire Warriors behind the Tidewall.
Chances of causing one HP of damage: about 32%
I'm still not convinced at how broken the Tidewall is. The ability to reflect shots is a gimmick, nothing more and nothing less.
Kanluwen wrote: but those vehicles that use low AP low S weapons with a high ROF have now possibly glanced themselves to death.
God that's just stupid. How unbelievably incompetent do you have to be to write a rule where vehicles are likely to kill themselves with bounced shots from a weapon that can't normally hurt them? And then somehow let it be published without realizing that you have a problem? There's simply no excuse for this kind of thing.
I actually just realized what this means for Dark Eldar Venoms, heck Dark Eldar in general. Take Aun'va, abuse Go-to-Ground-and-get-back-up shenanigans to watch the Dark Eldar army literally kill itself.
Opinion discarded, placed in a fire proof waste bin, doused with agent orange and burned as blatantly false. Just because you don't know how to use them does not mean this is in any way shape or form remotely true.
Vineheart01 wrote: Quite literally the ONLY thing that makes me think the tidewall isnt garbage is the fact that it can possibly reflect-kill a vehicle. Rest of it is either soso or "its good" - the movement might as well not exist except in scenarios.
Now if it moved like a Skimmer where it went over all terrain including impassible, that would be kinda....busted lol
Yeah, exactly. In most cases, the movement is going to be useless (but floating is just plain cool). Almost everything is mediocre except the reflect thing, which is has oodles of potential, but totally beyond the Tau player's control.
If someone is in a vehicle and shoots at a model behind the glowing blue force field with a weapon that allows cover saves, there's a 16.7% chance that the glowy force field will absorb the shot and reflect it back. So if you're the commander, you make a call: do you roll the dice and shoot at the protected model, or do you shoot at something else? When it reflects back, it's only a wound or a glance anyways. So in some cases, maybe it's worth the risk; in other cases it's not. In either case, it's up to the attacker... so I don't think that this can be construed as some kind of "ZOMG IWIN" power.
Kanluwen wrote: but those vehicles that use low AP low S weapons with a high ROF have now possibly glanced themselves to death.
God that's just stupid. How unbelievably incompetent do you have to be to write a rule where vehicles are likely to kill themselves with bounced shots from a weapon that can't normally hurt them? And then somehow let it be published without realizing that you have a problem? There's simply no excuse for this kind of thing.
I actually don't think so. I don't imagine the glowy blue field to *literally* take the attack and toss it back, especially in the case of a kinetic (non-energy) weapon. I mean, I don't imagine it as taking a bullet, turning it a in a full 180 ricochet. If it did that, it should actually reflect back in an arc and have a chance of hitting other models. Instead, I imagine that some how it absorbs the energy of that shot and uses it to reflect energy back it at the shooter, not at the same strength as the attack. So, for instance, a Wraithknight couldn't D-Weapon 1-hit kill itself with a reflect, because what's coming back is not a S D attack. Conversely, toss a rock from a slingshot at it, and it might zap you back with enough energy to kill you.
To be fair, if I had to say what "armies" - i.e. factions - are in the top three, it would be Armies of the Imperium, Eldar and Daemons IMO.
If someone seriously suggests that Necrons are weak though or that competitive armies have no trouble with them then they are out of their minds however, there's a reason Canoptek Wraiths are pretty widely considered the best assault unit in any codex.
Actually what I think is worst case is a land raider crusader somehow killing itself with its 18 bolter shots. Not to mention assault cannon and melta. Or at least doing 2 or 3 HP to itself.
Unless I'm misremembering Hurricane Bolters are six shots per sponson when rapid-firing, meaning a Crusader fires twelve bolter shots, four assault cannon shots, one melta shot (if given that upgrade). Considering all but the last gun are twin-linked and none of them have Ignores Cover, there's a good chance that it will lose 1-2 hull points each time it shoots.
Honestly the most silly interaction is with Large Blasts.
Talys wrote: I actually don't think so. I don't imagine the glowy blue field to *literally* take the attack and toss it back, especially in the case of a kinetic (non-energy) weapon. I mean, I don't imagine it as taking a bullet, turning it a in a full 180 ricochet. If it did that, it should actually reflect back in an arc and have a chance of hitting other models. Instead, I imagine that some how it absorbs the energy of that shot and uses it to reflect energy back it at the shooter, not at the same strength as the attack. So, for instance, a Wraithknight couldn't D-Weapon 1-hit kill itself with a reflect, because what's coming back is not a S D attack. Conversely, toss a rock from a slingshot at it, and it might zap you back with enough energy to kill you.
But that doesn't make any sense. If the wall is capable of adding vastly disproportionate amounts of power to an attack and directing it at the firing unit then why does it need to be triggered by incoming fire? If it can turn an exploding bolter shell from a LR Crusader into an automatic glance against AV 14 then why can't the wall just fire some of those shots at the Land Raider without waiting to get hit? Or let's say a Wyvern shoots at it from halfway across the table and behind LOS-blocking terrain, now you're lobbing "reflected" shots back with even more strength added. So if you've got this anti-armor mortar built into the wall then why can't I just shoot it normally?
The real answer is that it's an idiotic rule, and it should have been something like this instead:
Every time a unit behind the wall passes a cover save roll a D6. On a 6 the closest unit (on the same side as the wall as the firing unit) within 12" and LOS of the wall suffers a hit with the strength and AP of the one that was saved. If no appropriate unit exists to suffer the hit then it is simply lost.
There, now you aren't glancing Land Raiders to death with reflected bolter fire or turning a defensive wall into an improvised mortar. But unfortunately GW's rule authors are incompetent morons, and we're stuck with inexcusably broken execution of a decent concept.
Think of the shield wall as a minefield. Minefields aren't really that dangerous per se, because if you know it's there, you AVOID IT, only going through if you absolutely have to. They are, however, really effective at channeling the enemy into kill zones, and thereby defending what would otherwise be a vulnerable defense position.
So the attacker has to make a choice: enter the minefield and possibly attack a more weakly held defensive position at the risk of taking mine casualties (shooting the zappy wall), or going around it into the enemies kill box (shooting at things not behind the zappy wall). The tidewall rampart isn't a kill you type thing; it's battlefield control.
Note that every Fire Warrior that you kill guarantees a shot that won't reflect back. Alternatively, shoot with bolt pistols and charge the Fire Warriors to negate the defense line.
Still not buying how the Tidewall is overpowered.
Then you have not paid an ounce of attention to what the rule is on the Tidewall.
IF the rule comes into effect via you rolling a 6 after having made a successful Cover Save, then you are automatically Wounding or causing a Glancing Hit. No Strength involved, no Toughness test, etc. It just comes down to the AP value of the weapon--which means that those Space Marines will most likely be just fine, but those vehicles that use low AP low S weapons with a high ROF have now possibly glanced themselves to death.
Okay then. Let's look at a worst-case scenario: A Vyper (2HP) with Scatter Laser and Shuriken Cannon (seven S6 shots) fires at Fire Warriors behind the Tidewall.
Chances of causing one HP of damage: about 32%
I'm still not convinced at how broken the Tidewall is. The ability to reflect shots is a gimmick, nothing more and nothing less.
EDIT: it's less than I though!
Unless my math sucks, anytime the unit behind the wall goes to ground, each wound a vehicle inflicts has a 13.8% chance of reflecting back to take one of his own HP.
That was 83% to succeed at cover save(going to ground, 2+), then 17% chance for each success to reflect(6).
Think of the shield wall as a minefield. Minefields aren't really that dangerous per se, because if you know it's there, you AVOID IT, only going through if you absolutely have to. They are, however, really effective at channeling the enemy into kill zones, and thereby defending what would otherwise be a vulnerable defense position.
So the attacker has to make a choice: enter the minefield and possibly attack a more weakly held defensive position at the risk of taking mine casualties (shooting the zappy wall), or going around it into the enemies kill box (shooting at things not behind the zappy wall). The tidewall rampart isn't a kill you type thing; its battlefield control.
You mean the wall that has the same movement speed as most units in the game? That can also move in reverse?
Obviously you can counter the wall if all you care about is winning games. The point is that it's a stupid rule that makes no sense fluff-wise, and only works that way because GW's rule authors are idiots.
Talys wrote: I actually don't think so. I don't imagine the glowy blue field to *literally* take the attack and toss it back, especially in the case of a kinetic (non-energy) weapon. I mean, I don't imagine it as taking a bullet, turning it a in a full 180 ricochet. If it did that, it should actually reflect back in an arc and have a chance of hitting other models. Instead, I imagine that some how it absorbs the energy of that shot and uses it to reflect energy back it at the shooter, not at the same strength as the attack. So, for instance, a Wraithknight couldn't D-Weapon 1-hit kill itself with a reflect, because what's coming back is not a S D attack. Conversely, toss a rock from a slingshot at it, and it might zap you back with enough energy to kill you.
But that doesn't make any sense. If the wall is capable of adding vastly disproportionate amounts of power to an attack and directing it at the firing unit then why does it need to be triggered by incoming fire? If it can turn an exploding bolter shell from a LR Crusader into an automatic glance against AV 14 then why can't the wall just fire some of those shots at the Land Raider without waiting to get hit? Or let's say a Wyvern shoots at it from halfway across the table and behind LOS-blocking terrain, now you're lobbing "reflected" shots back with even more strength added. So if you've got this anti-armor mortar built into the wall then why can't I just shoot it normally?
The real answer is that it's an idiotic rule, and it should have been something like this instead:
Every time a unit behind the wall passes a cover save roll a D6. On a 6 the closest unit (on the same side as the wall as the firing unit) within 12" and LOS of the wall suffers a hit with the strength and AP of the one that was saved. If no appropriate unit exists to suffer the hit then it is simply lost.
There, now you aren't glancing Land Raiders to death with reflected bolter fire or turning a defensive wall into an improvised mortar. But unfortunately GW's rule authors are incompetent morons, and we're stuck with inexcusably broken execution of a decent concept.
Note that every Fire Warrior that you kill guarantees a shot that won't reflect back. Alternatively, shoot with bolt pistols and charge the Fire Warriors to negate the defense line.
Still not buying how the Tidewall is overpowered.
Then you have not paid an ounce of attention to what the rule is on the Tidewall.
IF the rule comes into effect via you rolling a 6 after having made a successful Cover Save, then you are automatically Wounding or causing a Glancing Hit. No Strength involved, no Toughness test, etc. It just comes down to the AP value of the weapon--which means that those Space Marines will most likely be just fine, but those vehicles that use low AP low S weapons with a high ROF have now possibly glanced themselves to death.
Okay then. Let's look at a worst-case scenario: A Vyper (2HP) with Scatter Laser and Shuriken Cannon (seven S6 shots) fires at Fire Warriors behind the Tidewall.
Chances of causing one HP of damage: about 32%
I'm still not convinced at how broken the Tidewall is. The ability to reflect shots is a gimmick, nothing more and nothing less.
EDIT: it's less than I though!
Unless my math sucks, anytime the unit behind the wall goes to ground, each wound a vehicle inflicts has a 13.8% chance of reflecting back to take one of his own HP.
That was 83% to succeed at cover save(going to ground, 2+), then 17% chance for each success to reflect(6).
Think of the shield wall as a minefield. Minefields aren't really that dangerous per se, because if you know it's there, you AVOID IT, only going through if you absolutely have to. They are, however, really effective at channeling the enemy into kill zones, and thereby defending what would otherwise be a vulnerable defense position.
So the attacker has to make a choice: enter the minefield and possibly attack a more weakly held defensive position at the risk of taking mine casualties (shooting the zappy wall), or going around it into the enemies kill box (shooting at things not behind the zappy wall). The tidewall rampart isn't a kill you type thing; its battlefield control.
You mean the wall that has the same movement speed as most units in the game? That can also move in reverse?
My math doesn't match up with yours because I didn't use GtG.
Note that every Fire Warrior that you kill guarantees a shot that won't reflect back. Alternatively, shoot with bolt pistols and charge the Fire Warriors to negate the defense line.
Still not buying how the Tidewall is overpowered.
Then you have not paid an ounce of attention to what the rule is on the Tidewall.
IF the rule comes into effect via you rolling a 6 after having made a successful Cover Save, then you are automatically Wounding or causing a Glancing Hit. No Strength involved, no Toughness test, etc. It just comes down to the AP value of the weapon--which means that those Space Marines will most likely be just fine, but those vehicles that use low AP low S weapons with a high ROF have now possibly glanced themselves to death.
Okay then. Let's look at a worst-case scenario: A Vyper (2HP) with Scatter Laser and Shuriken Cannon (seven S6 shots) fires at Fire Warriors behind the Tidewall.
Chances of causing one HP of damage: about 32%
I'm still not convinced at how broken the Tidewall is. The ability to reflect shots is a gimmick, nothing more and nothing less.
EDIT: it's less than I though!
Unless my math sucks, anytime the unit behind the wall goes to ground, each wound a vehicle inflicts has a 13.8% chance of reflecting back to take one of his own HP.
That was 83% to succeed at cover save(going to ground, 2+), then 17% chance for each success to reflect(6).
Think of the shield wall as a minefield. Minefields aren't really that dangerous per se, because if you know it's there, you AVOID IT, only going through if you absolutely have to. They are, however, really effective at channeling the enemy into kill zones, and thereby defending what would otherwise be a vulnerable defense position.
So the attacker has to make a choice: enter the minefield and possibly attack a more weakly held defensive position at the risk of taking mine casualties (shooting the zappy wall), or going around it into the enemies kill box (shooting at things not behind the zappy wall). The tidewall rampart isn't a kill you type thing; its battlefield control.
You mean the wall that has the same movement speed as most units in the game? That can also move in reverse?
And gets stopped by a bush? I don't see your point, honestly.
Even 12" is rather generous, I was thinking 6" originally. At 36" it just doesn't make any sense, you're almost certainly reflecting shots back through other terrain/intervening units/etc, and potentially sending a shot farther than its normal range (for example, a 24" bolter shot traveling another 24" back to the firing unit when it can't shoot from 48"). And really, if this is supposed to represent shots bouncing off then it should be a close-range hazard since the deflection would be completely random and likely to end up in the dirt instead of hitting a target that isn't standing right next to the wall.
Even 12" is rather generous, I was thinking 6" originally. At 36" it just doesn't make any sense, you're almost certainly reflecting shots back through other terrain/intervening units/etc, and potentially sending a shot farther than its normal range (for example, a 24" bolter shot traveling another 24" back to the firing unit when it can't shoot from 48"). And really, if this is supposed to represent shots bouncing off then it should be a close-range hazard since the deflection would be completely random and likely to end up in the dirt instead of hitting a target that isn't standing right next to the wall.
Were talking game mechanics here, not reality. Although, how I did it was hit the same unit, but only if that unit is within 36", and LOS of the wall (to protect barrage).
Obviously you can counter the wall if all you care about is winning games. The point is that it's a stupid rule that makes no sense fluff-wise, and only works that way because GW's rule authors are idiots.
Considering drones can be taken in squads on their own (or atleast right now they can if that gets removed) it makes sense to sell drones on their own.
Not to mention afaik only drone you can make multiples of per box is Gun Drones.
I might want to grab that GHost keel edition, that would be my first collectors editon codexs. Still iritated that the space wolf wolf guard one was 250, only reason why i passed it. if its above 200+ it better come with an exclusive miniature.
Being in the Elites is one of the downfalls of Stealth Suits. Cost being the other obviously....but my main peeve with'm is i dont want bursts and fusions in the same damn squad and have no other options.
Orock wrote: Actually what I think is worst case is a land raider crusader somehow killing itself with its 18 bolter shots. Not to mention assault cannon and melta. Or at least doing 2 or 3 HP to itself.
Here is how you counter that. Don't shoot at the few infantry models (that you could totally wreck in CC with normal marines) with your dakka tanks.It is that simple.
If you're making this mistake, then you're losing for a completely different reason.
LighthouseM wrote: Here is how you counter that. Don't shoot at the few infantry models (that you could totally wreck in CC with normal marines) with your dakka tanks.It is that simple.
If you're making this mistake, then you're losing for a completely different reason.
And, again, "don't shoot with your tanks because of this stupid rule" is not justification for GW's incompetence. This is not a situation that should happen.
Wait, what? I was okayish with the prices before. I expected the price hike on the commander and the Crisis Suits, and was even willing to pay the extra money for the more posable kits.
I also went off the assumption that the Drone kit was going to be four models, or maybe even six. But two? Two drones for $12? Six dollars for a fething drone?
I feel like I need to say that again. Six dollars for a single fething drone. That's insane...
Wow. Those drones had better come with ALL of the options, and even then it's bad. At least it makes the Piranha look like a pretty good deal, if the pair of gun drones cost $12 then the vehicle itself is only $18!
LighthouseM wrote: Here is how you counter that. Don't shoot at the few infantry models (that you could totally wreck in CC with normal marines) with your dakka tanks.It is that simple.
If you're making this mistake, then you're losing for a completely different reason.
And, again, "don't shoot with your tanks because of this stupid rule" is not justification for GW's incompetence. This is not a situation that should happen.
Well it is already said and done, so I don't understand the need to whinge about it on the interwebs. It isn't like this is Invisibility, where there is no tactical way to counter it. Ignores Cover, Flamers, Barrage, Tank Shock, Assault... there are plenty of ways around it. If you're worried about your Land Raider, then you've got access to drop pods and an easy way to attack from behind the line, which entirely negates it.
Bad rules writing or no, this is what it does. I understand that you want every unit in your army to be a threat to every unit in everyone else's army, but that has never been the case and I don't know why you would expect it to suddenly be the case.
Good thing every single Tau kit comes with at least one or two Drones (though admittedly most of those are only Gun Drones). Even so, it's not hard at all to convert the other Drone models, a couple quick cuts to the carbines makes a good Marker Drone, a shield gen or any other suitably small round bit makes a Shield Drone, an MP makes a Missile Drone, etc. Plus the newer kits like the Broadside come with options for all of them, so if you get those you're bound to have the extra bits. The only iffy ones are the Pathfinder and Shadowsun exclusive ones (of course you need those units to use those Drones in the first place so not a big deal, you need to get the kits anyway) and the new Guardian Drone. That one will likely be a bit tougher, especially if its on the standard Drone list (though I doubt I would ever take one outside of a unit with an amplifier relay). All in all, the Drone price is bull, but Drones are easy enough to get a hold of that it doesn't matter, cause there's no reason to ever by that kit.
The Commander and Crisis Suits are totally reasonable though. $50 for a brand new plastic commander that's potentially a dual kit (depending on how different the Coldstar looks compared to the standard Commander) with all the goodies and potentially a Drone? Yes please, more than worth it to replace the Finecast one (do note that this new kit will be the same price as Farsight is now, with far more options and stuff in it). And an extra $10 for Crisis Suits to get new sculpts (which are AMAZING looking) and apparently 4 of every weapon system (unless that rumor has been debunked)? Perfectly reasonable, and still worth it.
Wait, what? I was okayish with the prices before. I expected the price hike on the commander and the Crisis Suits, and was even willing to pay the extra money for the more posable kits. I also went off the assumption that the Drone kit was going to be four models, or maybe even six. But two? Two drones for $12? Six dollars for a fething drone?
I feel like I need to say that again. Six dollars for a single fething drone. That's insane...
Peregrine wrote:Wow. Those drones had better come with ALL of the options, and even then it's bad. At least it makes the Piranha look like a pretty good deal, if the pair of gun drones cost $12 then the vehicle itself is only $18!
Let's put it this way:
My salary has doubled in the last six months, and even then I still find these prices to be outrageous.
However, as clearly evidenced by the Warlord titan, the Ta'Unar, and most recently the Tidewall, there are clearly a ton of rich bastards who will pay hundreds, if not thousands of dollars for molded plastic. What is truly outrageous is the lack of criticism GW is getting publicly for being so absurd. Because it's in more of a niche sector, it won't necessarily get publicity (unless they sue of the term "space marine" again) and that's a shame, because maybe if people stopped blindly buying whatever gak comes out, we could see real change within the company. I would love to outright buy the company, but that's years away from happening.
The prices are so incredibly inflated, with so much overhead, that the company has to be actively working to limit sales. Gundam models are made with similar plastics and are as resilient, yet are a fraction of the cost of a larger model. At this point, Games Workshop could start killing people publicly in the streets of London for no reason and people would still buy their products.
The Commander and Crisis Suits are totally reasonable though.
It's about as reasonable as chopping part of your fingers off because your gloves are too small. At this point, I'm just gonna start using gundam models. At least then I can pose them however I want and my girl won't flay me alive for giving a company that is outright contemptuous towards its own customers my money.
Just realized that the Tide Wall can reflect Splinter Cannon rounds from DE Venoms. Splinter cannons cannot in anyway shape or form harm any model with an AV rating no matter how low it goes. Yet when bouncing back from the wall, the shot strips 1/2 hull point per shooting phase.
Crisis suits are only $10 more than before. Still, $10 more than it should have been but its not that bad.
The $50 Commander can screw off. I'll stick with my proxies until i actually want to run FW suits (fancy crisis suits and r'varna)
Im guessing they hyked the drones to $12 for 2 because they know everybody has a bazillion of them by now lol. I dont even know how many gun drones i got floating around (badum tssh)
LighthouseM wrote: I understand that you want every unit in your army to be a threat to every unit in everyone else's army, but that has never been the case and I don't know why you would expect it to suddenly be the case.
No, I want the rules in my games to make sense. A "reflect the shot back at you" rule should not selectively increase or reduce the power of that shot so that a STR 1 shot can glance AV 14, while a STR D shot can only glance AV 10. It should reflect the shot using its original strength and AP values and roll to wound/pen normally. This has nothing to do with balance and everything to do with the fact that it's a really stupid rule.
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McNinja wrote: However, as clearly evidenced by the Warlord titan, the Ta'Unar, and most recently the Tidewall, there are clearly a ton of rich bastards who will pay hundreds, if not thousands of dollars for molded plastic.
At least in the case of the Warlord and Tau walker we're talking about large resin kits. Low-production-volume resin kits like that are going to cost a lot of money, and you just expect to pay it if you want the niche-market stuff. But the Tau plastic stuff is just obscene. FFS, gun drones used to be practically free throw-ins on other kits and every Tau player always had a bunch of spares. Selling them for $6 each is just GW blatantly saying "we don't think there's a price our customers won't pay". Even if you're rich you have to be looking at that price and wondering why you're spending your money on $6 gun drones instead of getting a lot more for your money elsewhere.
Im guessing they hyked the drones to $12 for 2 because they know everybody has a bazillion of them by now lol. I dont even know how many gun drones i got floating around (badum tssh)
Which baffles my mind, because they could have just introduced a "Drone Sprue" bit that had all of the weapons (Shield, Markerlight, Sniper, Missile) and even included a Guardian Drone (new one) bit, and charged 5$ each for it without anyone really complaining. People wouldn't really worry about the price, and they'd be happy to have uses for their drone piles as we get a million of them by the time we finish our armies.
Just a quick show of hands, how many people here would buy a sprue with all of those things for 5$ as opposed to a drone for 6$? They could even throw in a Plasma Rifle for Crisis Suits, and make the Missile Pod for the drones capable of fitting on a Crisis Suit if needed.
GI_Redshirt wrote: $50 for a brand new plastic commander that's potentially a dual kit (depending on how different the Coldstar looks compared to the standard Commander) with all the goodies and potentially a Drone? Yes please, more than worth it to replace the Finecast one (do note that this new kit will be the same price as Farsight is now, with far more options and stuff in it).
You have a very generous definition of "reasonable". Before GW's recent price insanity $50 kit used to be a full-size tank, complete with extra sprues for alternate weapons/add-on details/etc. There's no justification for charging that much for a single crisis suit besides "GW thinks their customers are desperate enough to pay any price and is trying to test the limits of the market".
And who cares if it costs the same as Farsight does now? $50 for a single finecast crisis suit is just plain lunacy. I can't imagine why anyone would buy it at that price.
I'm not sure the Crisis suits are that bad of a price hike. New sculpts, right?
The last time I bought suits (2006?) they were one to a box, and cost $20 USD. I think they're 3x a box now? Is that right? If so, the cost per suit has gone to $25USD, which is what's listed per suit on GW site.
The cost of the XV8 hasn't even risen with inflation here. Huh.
30 dollar clampacks were bad enough as is, pretty sure that the battlesuit commander will be 60 smackeroos in Canada, which is highway robbery. I could buy a full blown game with that money.
Grimskul wrote: 30 dollar clampacks were bad enough as is, pretty sure that the battlesuit commander will be 60 smackeroos in Canada, which is highway robbery. I could buy a full blown game with that money.
I don't know if we really want to get into what else we could do for $60. The quick answer, though, is "literally anything else."
maceria wrote: $50 for a commander? PFFFT! Conversions HO!
And this is probably the part that makes the least sense. GWhas to know that most Tau players just use the normal crisis suits for their HQ models. Who exactly is their target audience here? A variant sculpt is a fine idea if it's just slightly more than the normal one, but how many obsessive collectors are going to pay double the normal price for one?
With individual cost for an XV8, I would say $35 is about right for a commander. POSSIBLY $40 if it were a really nice model. Like FW nice. Display nice. Not gaming class.
*sigh* Looks like Ignore Cover is even more important than it already was. Glad I run a ton of Flamer weapons in both of my armies. TFCs are on my buy list even more than they already were.
Also acceptable ways to deal with the 265 pt wall of doom:
Whirlwinds, Squads of Vindicators, Psychic Shriek, Divination
maceria wrote: With individual cost for an XV8, I would say $35 is about right for a commander. POSSIBLY $40 if it were a really nice model. Like FW nice. Display nice. Not gaming class.
To be fair, it will probably be 35-40$ on secondary sites since most of them offer around a 20% discount (Frontline Gaming for example), so it shouldn't be that bad.
casvalremdeikun wrote: *sigh* Looks like Ignore Cover is even more important than it already was. Glad I run a ton of Flamer weapons in both of my armies. TFCs are on my buy list even more than they already were.
Also acceptable ways to deal with the 265 pt wall of doom:
Whirlwinds, Squads of Vindicators, Psychic Shriek, Divination
There's another even easier way to get around the Tidewall: run up close and contest it. The Tau player won't be able to move it, and you can then claim cover saves from it so that Tau vehicles have to suffer the Wall of Glancing Death. And if you're that close, you're guaranteed a charge onto the Tau forces to wipe them in CC.
The wall comments are ....special. Maybe be like elsa, and let it go?
The prices on the new things are just bad business.
The justification "they had to make new molds" is pure bunk - with advances in technology and design, they should be cheaper, not more expensive. They are a vertically integrated monopoly - they have one of the best cost structures possible.
Gw has incredible margins - they charge high prices due to their hubris and ignorance of what they are selling and to whom they are selling it too.
With smart business leadership this company would be a billion dollar industry - instead they try to squeeze as much blood from a stone as they continue to lose customers.
I was hoping to get a few more friends in to 40k recently, but at these prices, poor rules, lack of customer interfacing and alternative gaming products - is not just losing existing customers - but many future ones as well.
davethepak wrote: The wall comments are ....special. Maybe be like elsa, and let it go?
The prices on the new things are just bad business.
The justification "they had to make new molds" is pure bunk - with advances in technology and design, they should be cheaper, not more expensive. They are a vertically integrated monopoly - they have one of the best cost structures possible.
Gw has incredible margins - they charge high prices due to their hubris and ignorance of what they are selling and to whom they are selling it too.
With smart business leadership this company would be a billion dollar industry - instead they try to squeeze as much blood from a stone as they continue to lose customers.
I was hoping to get a few more friends in to 40k recently, but at these prices, poor rules, lack of customer interfacing and alternative gaming products - is not just losing existing customers - but many future ones as well.
casvalremdeikun wrote: *sigh* Looks like Ignore Cover is even more important than it already was. Glad I run a ton of Flamer weapons in both of my armies. TFCs are on my buy list even more than they already were.
Also acceptable ways to deal with the 265 pt wall of doom:
Whirlwinds, Squads of Vindicators, Psychic Shriek, Divination
There's another even easier way to get around the Tidewall: run up close and contest it. The Tau player won't be able to move it, and you can then claim cover saves from it so that Tau vehicles have to suffer the Wall of Glancing Death. And if you're that close, you're guaranteed a charge onto the Tau forces to wipe them in CC.
Charge Tau...and get wiped out in Overwatch. Still, moving up and sitting on it myself would be fun. I'd still be able to torch it with my Land Raider Redeemer too. Looks like that thing is always going to be moving Cruising Speed and firing a sponson using PotMS.
Edit: Completely forgot about my ObSec Sternguard and their IC ammo.
I love reading this thread because it seems every page it flips from "tau are op because of the tidelwall!" to "tau are useless because 80pt devilfish!". Make up your mind
That thing combined with Breachers is actually ridiculous, you inflict Instant Death on Toughness 4 models and are even capable of seriously hurting a Wraithknight!
Just looked it up and it is as Sinister Samurai said, my bad.
If he is allowed to man it and his Structural Analyzer doesn't change, he gets; a Ballistic Skill 5 twin-linked S10 AP1 shot that re-rolls to-wound against monstrous creatures, reduces their Toughness by 1 (which affects Instant Death as well) and thus allows him to inflict Instant Death on Toughness 6 models.
, it just look pretty cool 
