If, after 30 years of 40K, you’re surprised/shocked/offended that GW continue to release more Marine kits than kits for other factions, well... I don’t know what to tell you. Prepare to be disappointed?
The most popular games/factions that pay their staff’s wages and the shareholders’ dividends get the most stuff.
More on topic than the salt-piles, it does suck that my DA Supplement will be part of a more expensive book, but GW have found a new way to force a higher purchase price, yayyy. And the rules are bound to be lacklustre compared to IH/etc. So be it. :-/
Togusa wrote: Picked up Faith and Fury last night, took about 45 minutes to read cover to cover and...
Big surprise! It's mostly Marine garbage.
Are they ever going to release anything over value for non-marine armies? Or is it just going to continue to be a marine-spank fest?
How many codexes have Marine based armies gotten this year? Hmmm?
How many Xenos Codexes?
Furthermore, how many of the Xenos rules releases have even been worth their weight in salt? Meanwhile Marines once again get to be the most absolutely broken factions, able to do things that others can't for literally no reason at all.
Isn't it cool how CSM Tanks now also get to have Chapt-oh, well. Nevermind on that.
Isn't it so cool and healthy for the game?!
Off top of my head 1 xenos codex and 1 marine codex this year? Gsc, then codex marines. I'm discounting chaos marines as it's an expanded reprint rather than a new book.
Gsc shook up the meta on release as much as marines have, they just didn't destroy win rates in the same way. Marines had a very brief period of being in the sun at the start of the edition, but on the whole sucked as a mono faction until this book.
Have there been too many marine releases? Maybe, have they been to strong? Definitely. Is it as bad as you made out? Not really.
bullyboy wrote: They also need the unit to teleport. It could be based on Gravis armour, but would need additional elements to allow this to happen.
So we don't think there may be a surprise box that releases first part of January (while sisters starts to arrive end of Jan)? Not sure if "new" marines would go over well right now, but there is an air of mystery to this (perfectly fitting for DA). The consistent rumour was Orks vs Wolves, which we now know is wrong (yet the source had got so much right prior), so what have GW been hiding to suddenly put this release out at the beginning of the year, and giving a Xmas day teaser to start it off?
I'm going to say nothing of note, the entire Psychic Awakenign has been a case of over promise and under deliver.
It would be a financial mistake long term to release these models straight after Xmas in my opinion, the general public perception I have seen online, in various stores and hobby clubs, is that people (even Marine players) are sick of the constant marine releases now and want a break.
.
I agree TBH, as a Marine player I'm still painting the current release wave, I'd not really appreciate a new gravis line right now, (also I'm going to be working on sisters when they release, fufilling an oooold promise I made to myself) and I doubt I'd be alone. GW'd be best off waiting awhile for marine releases. the only marine stuff for 2020 I'd like to see is some plastic characters. and that's more a desire to see ANY model old eneugh to drink replaced
JohnnyHell wrote: The most popular games/factions that pay their staff’s wages and the shareholders’ dividends get the most stuff.
- Don't release any Sister stuff despite constant demand, focusing on more marines.
- Start listening to the constant demand, and release Sister box, but only a tiny number compared to demand, because production lines are busy making more marines.
- "Space marines are what makes us money we should do more of them instead of other factions"
Gsc shook up the meta on release as much as marines have, they just didn't destroy win rates in the same way. Marines had a very brief period of being in the sun at the start of the edition, but on the whole sucked as a mono faction until this book.
Have there been too many marine releases? Maybe, have they been to strong? Definitely. Is it as bad as you made out? Not really.
Sucking as mono faction isn't much of a surprise in a game where you soup or you suck. Only numarines got chance of not sucking mono and now sisters got lot weaker version
JohnnyHell wrote: The most popular games/factions that pay their staff’s wages and the shareholders’ dividends get the most stuff.
- Don't release any Sister stuff despite constant demand, focusing on more marines.
- Start listening to the constant demand, and release Sister box, but only a tiny number compared to demand, because production lines are busy making more marines.
- "Space marines are what makes us money we should do more of them instead of other factions"
If you doubt that marines are an inherently more popular concept you're basically a flat earther tbh.
Indeed.
Also, GW didn't listen to random forum whining. They did an enormous survey.
And the Sisters' release hasn't in any way changed the amount of focus on Marines. The box was limited edition. You're ascribing production issues as a reason with no basis, other than a hypothesis that fits your narrative. For all we know they made exactly as many as they intended. Remember, they hate having to annualise profits so could just as easily have printed a number of boxes that won't stretch them next year in trying to match sales. See? We can all speculate with no info. I didn't present mine as fact though.
Sisters are getting a full, multi-kit release next year. Space Marines, being their bread and butter for 30 years now, will keep getting updates via books and models long after that release is done and dusted. After release the Sisters will get far less. Speculation again, but safe speculation. The poster boys are so because they're popular, and sell. There are plenty of threads lamenting this in General Discussion if anyone needs, so that this thread can stay on N&R.
Gsc shook up the meta on release as much as marines have, they just didn't destroy win rates in the same way. Marines had a very brief period of being in the sun at the start of the edition, but on the whole sucked as a mono faction until this book.
Have there been too many marine releases? Maybe, have they been to strong? Definitely. Is it as bad as you made out? Not really.
Sucking as mono faction isn't much of a surprise in a game where you soup or you suck. Only numarines got chance of not sucking mono and now sisters got lot weaker version
That doesn't make it excusable behaviour however, the standard response shouldn't be "lol soup or die". If it helps I'll rephrase that codex marines had 1 build with a G-man ball for a short time and weren't used otherwise.
- Start listening to the constant demand, and release Sister box, but only a tiny number compared to demand, because production lines are busy making more marines.
I'm keen to know more about the market research you've done that can accurately predict demand better than GWs own survey and sales history.
You didn't answer the question. It's very easy to point out they underestimated demand after the fact. What specific figures do you have to show they should have planned for more >12 months ago?
Right now your complaint comes across as 'how dare GW not be able to predict the future', which isn't exactly the strongest argument.
JohnnyHell wrote: And the Sisters' release hasn't in any way changed the amount of focus on Marines.
Yes, that was my point.
“but only a tiny number compared to demand, because production lines are busy making more marines.”
That's exactly my point!
That was your hypothesis, not point. You've strapped reasoning onto something without any actual knowledge of whether it's true. That's not a point, it's postulation. I covered that.
Yes, and so they won't make as much money, and GW will use that to explain why they do more marines. You can't sell what you don't make.
The idea Marines somehow aren't popular in their own right is as fallacious as it is baffling. There's a million threads in General Discussion on that 'topic' should you need them... shall we get this one back on discussing PA?
bullyboy wrote: They also need the unit to teleport. It could be based on Gravis armour, but would need additional elements to allow this to happen.
So we don't think there may be a surprise box that releases first part of January (while sisters starts to arrive end of Jan)? Not sure if "new" marines would go over well right now, but there is an air of mystery to this (perfectly fitting for DA). The consistent rumour was Orks vs Wolves, which we now know is wrong (yet the source had got so much right prior), so what have GW been hiding to suddenly put this release out at the beginning of the year, and giving a Xmas day teaser to start it off?
I'm going to say nothing of note, the entire Psychic Awakenign has been a case of over promise and under deliver.
I agree, the books have in no way delivered anything universe shattering as promised. It's all just more of the same.
I'm also not thrilled that DA are in the next book as I was hoping GW would really advance their timeline in conjunction with what we have been told about the escape of Luther, the gathering of the fallen near legion strength and their involvement on Vigilus. However, the fact that they've just been thrown in the mix right now, immediately before a full Sisters release and 5th PA book, it's going to be a whimper.
probably will be the same for the Tau book, and maybe the Wolves vs Orks will be the "big" PA story with Ghazkull.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Everyone might have asked for Sisters in plastic, but how can you guarantee that said people will actually pick up said Sisters in plastic?
Considering that in all of GW's webstores in the Europe the SoB boxes were sold out under a minute, it is pretty safe to say that people are buying them.
xttz wrote: It's very easy to point out they underestimated demand after the fact. What specific figures do you have to show they should have planned for more >12 months ago?
Right now your complaint comes across as 'how dare GW not be able to predict the future', which isn't exactly the strongest argument.
JohnnyHell wrote: The most popular games/factions that pay their staff’s wages and the shareholders’ dividends get the most stuff.
- Don't release any Sister stuff despite constant demand, focusing on more marines.
- Start listening to the constant demand, and release Sister box, but only a tiny number compared to demand, because production lines are busy making more marines.
- "Space marines are what makes us money we should do more of them instead of other factions"
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JohnnyHell wrote: That was your hypothesis, not point. You've strapped reasoning onto something without any actual knowledge of whether it's true. That's not a point, it's postulation.
You literally stated it as if it was a fact. I mean, I quoted you.
JohnnyHell wrote: The idea Marines somehow aren't popular in their own right is as fallacious as it is baffling.
Whatever you say dude. I mean, if GW never release a similar amount of stuff for other factions, you can just parrot this as long as you want with no backing evidence and be as condescending about it as you want, how convenient is that?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Everyone might have asked for Sisters in plastic, but how can you guarantee that said people will actually pick up said Sisters in plastic?
Considering that in all of GW's webstores in the Europe the SoB boxes were sold out under a minute, it is pretty safe to say that people are buying them.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Everyone might have asked for Sisters in plastic, but how can you guarantee that said people will actually pick up said Sisters in plastic?
Crimson wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Everyone might have asked for Sisters in plastic, but how can you guarantee that said people will actually pick up said Sisters in plastic?
Considering that in all of GW's webstores in the Europe the SoB boxes were sold out under a minute, it is pretty safe to say that people are buying them.
Yet my flgs had 10ish or so in stock for a week, so did they make too many....or too few?
As much as I love the discussion around whether Marine popularity is a consequence of GWs repeated, insistent focus or whether it is inherent this isn't the topic for it.
Please stop. A mod has already warned everyone like 2 pages back.
bullyboy wrote: They also need the unit to teleport. It could be based on Gravis armour, but would need additional elements to allow this to happen.
So we don't think there may be a surprise box that releases first part of January (while sisters starts to arrive end of Jan)? Not sure if "new" marines would go over well right now, but there is an air of mystery to this (perfectly fitting for DA). The consistent rumour was Orks vs Wolves, which we now know is wrong (yet the source had got so much right prior), so what have GW been hiding to suddenly put this release out at the beginning of the year, and giving a Xmas day teaser to start it off?
I'm going to say nothing of note, the entire Psychic Awakenign has been a case of over promise and under deliver.
I agree, the books have in no way delivered anything universe shattering as promised. It's all just more of the same.
I'm also not thrilled that DA are in the next book as I was hoping GW would really advance their timeline in conjunction with what we have been told about the escape of Luther, the gathering of the fallen near legion strength and their involvement on Vigilus. However, the fact that they've just been thrown in the mix right now, immediately before a full Sisters release and 5th PA book, it's going to be a whimper.
probably will be the same for the Tau book, and maybe the Wolves vs Orks will be the "big" PA story with Ghazkull.
I'm secretly hoping they don't make Azrael Primaris, and instead make a new guy, but it seems only logical...
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Everyone might have asked for Sisters in plastic, but how can you guarantee that said people will actually pick up said Sisters in plastic?
Considering that in all of GW's webstores in the Europe the SoB boxes were sold out under a minute, it is pretty safe to say that people are buying them.
Sold out of how many boxes though?
That we do not know. like we do not know with any of GW's releases. But there is no reason to assume that this was massively smaller number of boxes than their boxed set releases usually.
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An Actual Englishman wrote: As much as I love the discussion around whether Marine popularity is a consequence of GWs repeated, insistent focus or whether it is inherent this isn't the topic for it.
Please stop. A mod has already warned everyone like 2 pages back.
the sister's box was a test to see who'd put their money where their mouths where, the fact that it sold out so fast means GW will, hopefully have a larger production run of the multipart kits
The truth is, we can't know how well they really sold. Either they had like 20 (exaggeration) and sold out or had like 5000 (exaggeration) and sold out.
BrianDavion wrote: the sister's box was a test to see who'd put their money where their mouths where, the fact that it sold out so fast means GW will, hopefully have a larger production run of the multipart kits
Eh. The box and the multipart kits are honestly too close together to meaningfully influence the size of the production run, especially given the new releases this month.
Instead I think its more they hit the limits of their production with the limited box, especially with getting the new AoS army out at functionally the same time.
Hopefully, with the new facilities, we'll finally see a jump in production next year, and fewer book+one model 'releases.' There's still a bunch of 'temporarily out of stock' boxes they need to get back into circulation as well.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Everyone might have asked for Sisters in plastic, but how can you guarantee that said people will actually pick up said Sisters in plastic?
Considering that in all of GW's webstores in the Europe the SoB boxes were sold out under a minute, it is pretty safe to say that people are buying them.
Sold out of how many boxes though?
That we do not know. like we do not know with any of GW's releases. But there is no reason to assume that this was massively smaller number of boxes than their boxed set releases usually.
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An Actual Englishman wrote: As much as I love the discussion around whether Marine popularity is a consequence of GWs repeated, insistent focus or whether it is inherent this isn't the topic for it.
Please stop. A mod has already warned everyone like 2 pages back.
Now you are concerned of this!?
I'm not saying it couldn't have been popular, I'm just saying we have no way to determine everyone demanding plastic Sisters will have actually made the investment to buy them.
Personally I'm only planning to get a box here and there for weapons bitz and potentially casualties to create for a couple of my dudes on their bases. I could've just went with Guard but I figured I'd thank GW for kinda listening regarding model releases.
The truth is, we can't know how well they really sold. Either they had like 20 (exaggeration) and sold out or had like 5000 (exaggeration) and sold out.
That they had a double week to process the orders suggests it was a lot though. More units than GW can ship in a single week.
But what we can say, with relative certainty, is that if they had made more boxes, they would have sold more boxes!
We can also say with relative certainty that if I'd picked the winning lottery numbers I would have won the lottery. The difficulty lies in the 'predicting the future' part...
OK so we know Mephiston is on the Planet of the Sorcerers in City of Light, the new novel. You can see the awesome cover of him smoke-checking Rubricae in Tizca by a quick google search.
SPOILERS AHEAD (From end of Psychic Awakening: Blood of Baal)
Spoiler:
"How much horror can the Emperor's subjects endure? How much death? Day by day we drive these xenos back. Day by day they overwhelm and devour us in their turn. Always there comes another wave, another tendril. Never has the Emperor's light shone as brightly amidst the shadows of the Red Scar, yet perhaps it is this that draws the aliens to us from the outer dark?
Perhaps. It begins in blood, and in blood it ends... I know what must be done..." -Mephiston, the Lord of Death
Also, one more spoiler at end of the the fluff from BoB:
Spoiler:
"I picked up another echo of the message today. You know the one, same as the others, the same 'invitation.' I've ignored them before, but what if it's real? What if there really is a place with people like me, who hear things? And you, with your... What if this Crimson Mentor really can free us and teach us? I can't hide forever, Josep. I won't."
+Subject and interlocutor detained by local forces, awaiting arrival of Black Ship Yelantis.+
AlmightyWalrus wrote: "Muscly super soldier in power armour" is a generic cliché for a reason.
So is “all organic space alien bug”. Yet you don't see GW giving tyranids the same kind of support as marines get, amirite?
That's because they're too busy ignoring their own hobby to do anything about it.
This PA release is the biggest scam I've seen from them. You get a book that has literally nothing of value in them. They cost 40$ and they will come with 1 whole character! Of which so far has been 100% marines. Oh sure, there was an eldar box set.
The box set that all of my local stores still have on their shelves because no body who plays DE or E want Howling Banshees or whatever is in the DE side of the box.
Do you even PLAY Tyranids or is this just another case of "I DON'T EVEN PLAY IT BUT YOU SHOULD HATE THIS!"?
seriously, how many times do the mods have to come in and tell people to take their marine compl,aining elsewhere?
Automatically Appended Next Post: moving onto rumor discussion (or idle speculation) if properio involved GKs, DAs and 1K sons, what do you folks figure the odds of it also including some stuff for tzeetch deamons is?
BrianDavion wrote: Do you even PLAY Tyranids or is this just another case of "I DON'T EVEN PLAY IT BUT YOU SHOULD HATE THIS!"?
seriously, how many times do the mods have to come in and tell people to take their marine compl,aining elsewhere?
Automatically Appended Next Post: moving onto rumor discussion (or idle speculation) if properio involved GKs, DAs and 1K sons, what do you folks figure the odds of it also including some stuff for tzeetch deamons is?
I played them for over two years. They're now shelved due to being the worst army once again.
And, yes I will bring up Marines.
This is a thread about PA, which so far has had around +50% of its base ABOUT MARINES.
I think there is a precedence for them rewarding pure army construction (Doctrines) and as such, it will only have stuff for those 3 factions they listed.
moving onto rumor discussion (or idle speculation) if properio involved GKs, DAs and 1K sons, what do you folks figure the odds of it also including some stuff for tzeetch deamons is?
Zero, since the little spinner on the map only showed Thousand Sons, Dark Angels and Grey Knights.
Sadly, despite the title, "Ritual of the Damned" I fear the Thousand Sons aren't going to be treated well. Especially since we can pretty much guarantee the book will do for the Dark Angels (and Grey Knights?) what "Blood of Baal" did for Blood angels.
instead of doctinres you could give grey knights something that improves their invul saves by 1. it'd not fix the entire army no, but if GKTs all had 4++ invul saves they might be a little better
AlmightyWalrus wrote: "Muscly super soldier in power armour" is a generic cliché for a reason.
So is “all organic space alien bug”. Yet you don't see GW giving tyranids the same kind of support as marines get, amirite?
That's because they're too busy ignoring their own hobby to do anything about it.
This PA release is the biggest scam I've seen from them. You get a book that has literally nothing of value in them. They cost 40$ and they will come with 1 whole character! Of which so far has been 100% marines. Oh sure, there was an eldar box set.
The box set that all of my local stores still have on their shelves because no body who plays DE or E want Howling Banshees or whatever is in the DE side of the box.
You are so wrong on this account.
The reason Blood of the Phoenix didn't sell had nothing to do with the Banshees or Incubi, people wanted them....BAD. The issue was 100% the fact that the box was expensive and contained old kits that people had no interest in buying because they are not useful on the table (Falcon, Vyper, Hellions).
I wanted the box until I saw the price. I could totally use a falcon(dont have one), viper(need more) & hellions(I like the models) for my Ynarri. but not for $230 just to get the cool new sculpts which will be released later on down the road.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: "Muscly super soldier in power armour" is a generic cliché for a reason.
So is “all organic space alien bug”. Yet you don't see GW giving tyranids the same kind of support as marines get, amirite?
That's because they're too busy ignoring their own hobby to do anything about it.
This PA release is the biggest scam I've seen from them. You get a book that has literally nothing of value in them. They cost 40$ and they will come with 1 whole character! Of which so far has been 100% marines. Oh sure, there was an eldar box set.
The box set that all of my local stores still have on their shelves because no body who plays DE or E want Howling Banshees or whatever is in the DE side of the box.
You are so wrong on this account.
The reason Blood of the Phoenix didn't sell had nothing to do with the Banshees or Incubi, people wanted them....BAD. The issue was 100% the fact that the box was expensive and contained old kits that people had no interest in buying because they are not useful on the table (Falcon, Vyper, Hellions).
I had forgotten about all of those armies using Drazar/Jain Zar and Incubi and Banshees. There were so many of them, its hard to remember sometimes.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: "Muscly super soldier in power armour" is a generic cliché for a reason.
So is “all organic space alien bug”. Yet you don't see GW giving tyranids the same kind of support as marines get, amirite?
That's because they're too busy ignoring their own hobby to do anything about it.
This PA release is the biggest scam I've seen from them. You get a book that has literally nothing of value in them. They cost 40$ and they will come with 1 whole character! Of which so far has been 100% marines. Oh sure, there was an eldar box set.
The box set that all of my local stores still have on their shelves because no body who plays DE or E want Howling Banshees or whatever is in the DE side of the box.
You are so wrong on this account.
The reason Blood of the Phoenix didn't sell had nothing to do with the Banshees or Incubi, people wanted them....BAD. The issue was 100% the fact that the box was expensive and contained old kits that people had no interest in buying because they are not useful on the table (Falcon, Vyper, Hellions).
I had forgotten about all of those armies using Drazar/Jain Zar and Incubi and Banshees. There were so many of them, its hard to remember sometimes.
Not everybody buys models purely on how they play in the game. People have been asking for plastic Aspect Warriors for years.
Gw doesn't undersell discount boxes accidentally. Deliberate. Don't want to sell too many undercutting full price kit sales
of course, this is no differant from any retailer. the LAST thing you want is to over produce, leaving boxes sitting on store shelves for months.
This isn't about sitting on shelves. They could safely up the # decent number and still sell out. However that would mean they would sell more under discount rather than at full price. They want to sell X for X rather than 70% of X for as much as possible. Discount boxes are deliberately undersold to ensure that. Non discount stuff is surprise surprise not suffering from that level of instant selling out.
But what we can say, with relative certainty, is that if they had made more boxes, they would have sold more boxes!
That doesn't mean they should produce as many as they can if they won't sell out. I mean, have you ever even taken a small business course? Your logic there just doesn't work.
I was listening to the latest independent characters podcast on the way into work, where they admit to playtesting some of these books from a narrative perspective. One tidbit dropped was that thousand sons get a lot of character added in.
I take this to mean we might see the schools of study added in possibly?
Anyone got anything on PA or even rumours generally? Y’know, like the topic of the thread that mods have asked/told us to stick to repeatedly?
I watched a video from Kirioth yesterday that claimed there would be a boxed set for 8.5/9th Ed that would be SW vs Orks. It may or may not tie into PA. As PA6 is due to release in March I think this is unlikely, myself. 8.5/9th Ed is said to be very similar to 8th with little rules changes.
The same source said there’d be a new Ghaz model (bigger, of course) and a new Illuminator Szeras model that goes from a 40mm to a 80mm base.
PA6 will be telling - if the only new model is Primaris Ragnar there might be some truth to this. If the release is more substantial I doubt GW would release stuff for 2 of the same factions so close together.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Anyone got anything on PA or even rumours generally? Y’know, like the topic of the thread that mods have asked/told us to stick to repeatedly?
I watched a video from Kirioth yesterday that claimed there would be a boxed set for 8.5/9th Ed that would be SW vs Orks. It may or may not tie into PA. As PA6 is due to release in March I think this is unlikely, myself. 8.5/9th Ed is said to be very similar to 8th with little rules changes.
The same source said there’d be a new Ghaz model (bigger, of course) and a new Illuminator Szeras model that goes from a 40mm to a 80mm base.
PA6 will be telling - if the only new model is Primaris Ragnar there might be some truth to this. If the release is more substantial I doubt GW would release stuff for 2 of the same factions so close together.
Still waiting on the Fulgrim that Kirioth was 100% super-duper certain would come in February/March 2018 (!! yes, 2018, not a typo).
For News and Rumours, a grocery list my wife wrote would be more on topic than Kirioth, lol.
moving onto rumor discussion (or idle speculation) if properio involved GKs, DAs and 1K sons, what do you folks figure the odds of it also including some stuff for tzeetch deamons is?
Zero, since the little spinner on the map only showed Thousand Sons, Dark Angels and Grey Knights.
Sadly, despite the title, "Ritual of the Damned" I fear the Thousand Sons aren't going to be treated well. Especially since we can pretty much guarantee the book will do for the Dark Angels (and Grey Knights?) what "Blood of Baal" did for Blood angels.
The Spinner showed Sisters of Battle Icon and they did not get in anything in PA that I am aware of - nice vocal piece in the trailer and then ignored - because the topic was Faith.
(and before some here claim that the the limited undersold Sister release was the related item - it was not marketed as such was it???)
Dark Angels will get the "not" supplement and the rest a few bits and pieces - same as Blood Angels and PA - great if you are a Dark Angels player I guess - nothing new there probbaly have a second White Dwarf Index pieces... for reasons.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Anyone got anything on PA or even rumours generally? Y’know, like the topic of the thread that mods have asked/told us to stick to repeatedly?
I watched a video from Kirioth yesterday that claimed there would be a boxed set for 8.5/9th Ed that would be SW vs Orks. It may or may not tie into PA. As PA6 is due to release in March I think this is unlikely, myself. 8.5/9th Ed is said to be very similar to 8th with little rules changes.
The same source said there’d be a new Ghaz model (bigger, of course) and a new Illuminator Szeras model that goes from a 40mm to a 80mm base.
PA6 will be telling - if the only new model is Primaris Ragnar there might be some truth to this. If the release is more substantial I doubt GW would release stuff for 2 of the same factions so close together.
well if there's a ghaz model it proably won't be in the 9th edition boxed set (GW tends not to release characters in those), but back before shadow spear released the big rumor was "a boxed set with a new abaddon" so one could take a guess that this'll be a boxed set that sets us up for a new ork release featuring a plastic Ghaz. so maybe the SW vs Orks set is going to be to Orks what shadowspear was to chaos?
A new edition would most likely be in the summer, months after Saga of the Beast releases. If I recall correctly, Psychic Awakening is set to keep going past March, and likely into summer (since there will still be factions that haven't been touched by March).
To me, that kinda works against the idea of a Space Wolves vs. Orks boxed set for a new edition. The timing seems a bit - off.
Also, that box has been rumored for so long now...
yeah, I can see a new box, especially if a ghazzy is likely to come, but it'll be more shadowspear then dark imperium (wonder if this means new space marines.. .)
If anyone actually still wants SoB box, and doesn't mind dealing with international shipping, pretty much every Polish online store has them in stock still (Vanaheim lists it as 10+ in stock even).
An Actual Englishman wrote: Anyone got anything on PA or even rumours generally? Y’know, like the topic of the thread that mods have asked/told us to stick to repeatedly?
I watched a video from Kirioth yesterday that claimed there would be a boxed set for 8.5/9th Ed that would be SW vs Orks. It may or may not tie into PA. As PA6 is due to release in March I think this is unlikely, myself. 8.5/9th Ed is said to be very similar to 8th with little rules changes.
The same source said there’d be a new Ghaz model (bigger, of course) and a new Illuminator Szeras model that goes from a 40mm to a 80mm base.
PA6 will be telling - if the only new model is Primaris Ragnar there might be some truth to this. If the release is more substantial I doubt GW would release stuff for 2 of the same factions so close together.
well if there's a ghaz model it proably won't be in the 9th edition boxed set (GW tends not to release characters in those), but back before shadow spear released the big rumor was "a boxed set with a new abaddon" so one could take a guess that this'll be a boxed set that sets us up for a new ork release featuring a plastic Ghaz. so maybe the SW vs Orks set is going to be to Orks what shadowspear was to chaos?
A limited edition battle box that is a prelude to a confused/disappointing Orks 2.0 with a medium sized release wave, leaving some units trapped in said limited box for X months resulting in a marine release for the other half which leaves the forum stuck whining about marines again? Sign me up!
On a serious note though, there is probably some logic in assuming it will mirror the shadowspear format.
I wouldn't get your hopes up too much for major model releases with this, it's coming out alongside or very close to the full Sisters range. Would be surprised to see more than 1 or 2 character models considering the sheer volumes of plastic needed for a full new army release.
This PA release is the biggest scam I've seen from them. You get a book that has literally nothing of value in them.
As a primarily Tyranid player the new rules are very much of value to me. I didn't need a new plastic character model, I needed to be able to use stuff that's been shelved for months. PA3 addresses many of the issues keeping my bugs from being effective and gives a bunch of interesting new options for list building.
Just because it didn't elevate Tyranids to the meta-warping level of marines doesn't mean it was worthless. If anything, it's a positive as it means we're not setup for dissappointment later when GW have to reign in overly strong rules. If I played Iron Hands I'd be dreading the next big FAQ right now.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Anyone got anything on PA or even rumours generally? Y’know, like the topic of the thread that mods have asked/told us to stick to repeatedly?
I watched a video from Kirioth yesterday that claimed there would be a boxed set for 8.5/9th Ed that would be SW vs Orks. It may or may not tie into PA. As PA6 is due to release in March I think this is unlikely, myself. 8.5/9th Ed is said to be very similar to 8th with little rules changes.
The same source said there’d be a new Ghaz model (bigger, of course) and a new Illuminator Szeras model that goes from a 40mm to a 80mm base.
PA6 will be telling - if the only new model is Primaris Ragnar there might be some truth to this. If the release is more substantial I doubt GW would release stuff for 2 of the same factions so close together.
well if there's a ghaz model it proably won't be in the 9th edition boxed set (GW tends not to release characters in those), but back before shadow spear released the big rumor was "a boxed set with a new abaddon" so one could take a guess that this'll be a boxed set that sets us up for a new ork release featuring a plastic Ghaz. so maybe the SW vs Orks set is going to be to Orks what shadowspear was to chaos?
A limited edition battle box that is a prelude to a confused/disappointing Orks 2.0 with a medium sized release wave, leaving some units trapped in said limited box for X months resulting in a marine release for the other half which leaves the forum stuck whining about marines again? Sign me up!
On a serious note though, there is probably some logic in assuming it will mirror the shadowspear format.
LOL. truthfully the CSM release was a solid one (I'm talking a minis POV here) in that it updated some oldies that NEEDED updating and gave CSMs some intreasting new models. the basic CSM/Havok/Raptor CORE of CSMs is now fairly modern and is one I'mnot embarassed by at least. I woulda been happy to see some more stuff, (maybe a new defiler for example) but over all I'd say that CSMs went from "a bit neglected" at their core, to "pretty well off"
I wouldn't get your hopes up too much for major model releases with this, it's coming out alongside or very close to the full Sisters range. Would be surprised to see more than 1 or 2 character models considering the sheer volumes of plastic needed for a full new army release.
Oh, sorry, I'm hyped for the new rules and background.. Where did I even ask for new models
Did you even read the Blood of Baal spoilers that have plot implications?
Were we expecting a Gloomspite Gitz box last Xmas? Nope, that came as a surprise I believe.
Even with a sisters release, there could still be a boxed release to accompany PA:4, maybe with just 1 or 2 new characters. None of the factions in this release got a Xmas battleforce, but we saw one for Blood Angels, Tyranids, Chaos, even Wolves and Tau which are coming up in the next 2 books. Nothing for Dark Angels, Grey Knights or Thousand Sons. I could absolutely see a box with a few dark Angels, a character, a single unit of grey knights, versus some Tsons.
Still, I'm really surprised that we have nothing about this release, not a peep, a rumour, nothing. Guess those DAs are indeed good at keeping secrets.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Anyone got anything on PA or even rumours generally? Y’know, like the topic of the thread that mods have asked/told us to stick to repeatedly?
I watched a video from Kirioth yesterday that claimed there would be a boxed set for 8.5/9th Ed that would be SW vs Orks. It may or may not tie into PA. As PA6 is due to release in March I think this is unlikely, myself. 8.5/9th Ed is said to be very similar to 8th with little rules changes.
The same source said there’d be a new Ghaz model (bigger, of course) and a new Illuminator Szeras model that goes from a 40mm to a 80mm base.
PA6 will be telling - if the only new model is Primaris Ragnar there might be some truth to this. If the release is more substantial I doubt GW would release stuff for 2 of the same factions so close together.
well if there's a ghaz model it proably won't be in the 9th edition boxed set (GW tends not to release characters in those), but back before shadow spear released the big rumor was "a boxed set with a new abaddon" so one could take a guess that this'll be a boxed set that sets us up for a new ork release featuring a plastic Ghaz. so maybe the SW vs Orks set is going to be to Orks what shadowspear was to chaos?
Yea, not expecting new Ghaz in a boxed set, that would be a big change from the norm.
Shadowspear is the best boxed set GW have ever done in my opinion, they need to replicate that model for other factions. A boxed set with all new models will set like hot cakes regardless of who's participating in it, I'd wager.
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bullyboy wrote: Were we expecting a Gloomspite Gitz box last Xmas? Nope, that came as a surprise I believe.
Even with a sisters release, there could still be a boxed release to accompany PA:4, maybe with just 1 or 2 new characters. None of the factions in this release got a Xmas battleforce, but we saw one for Blood Angels, Tyranids, Chaos, even Wolves and Tau which are coming up in the next 2 books. Nothing for Dark Angels, Grey Knights or Thousand Sons. I could absolutely see a box with a few dark Angels, a character, a single unit of grey knights, versus some Tsons.
Still, I'm really surprised that we have nothing about this release, not a peep, a rumour, nothing. Guess those DAs are indeed good at keeping secrets.
Yea I'm in two minds on this - either there's nothing here and we shouldn't expect a release like Gloomspite Gitz for any of the PA4 factions, or it's a mega surprise release that no rumour monger has any idea about.
I'd be suprirsed if it's the latter, to be honest. Out of those factions - TS and DA have many modern kits, particularly DA with their access to all things Primaris now, only GK could probably do with a "Primaris" type unit (or 15) but as if GW have managed to keep the lid on such a development for so long?! I feel that we'd know something by now if anything were coming.
Perhaps it's going to be the announcement of Beast Ghaz and Russ to have a go at him?
bullyboy wrote: Were we expecting a Gloomspite Gitz box last Xmas? Nope, that came as a surprise I believe.
Even with a sisters release, there could still be a boxed release to accompany PA:4, maybe with just 1 or 2 new characters. None of the factions in this release got a Xmas battleforce, but we saw one for Blood Angels, Tyranids, Chaos, even Wolves and Tau which are coming up in the next 2 books. Nothing for Dark Angels, Grey Knights or Thousand Sons. I could absolutely see a box with a few dark Angels, a character, a single unit of grey knights, versus some Tsons.
Still, I'm really surprised that we have nothing about this release, not a peep, a rumour, nothing. Guess those DAs are indeed good at keeping secrets.
Nothing except a direct statement from GW that we should expect _A_ character with each book, no more, no less.
At this point we know the formula to expect: a pseudo-supplement for DA and TS.
On the plus side for TS, as the only chaos force, they'll likely get similar rules coverage to what the combined (non-DG) legions got in Faith and Fury, though they may split it with Grey Knights.
bullyboy wrote: Were we expecting a Gloomspite Gitz box last Xmas? Nope, that came as a surprise I believe.
Even with a sisters release, there could still be a boxed release to accompany PA:4, maybe with just 1 or 2 new characters. None of the factions in this release got a Xmas battleforce, but we saw one for Blood Angels, Tyranids, Chaos, even Wolves and Tau which are coming up in the next 2 books. Nothing for Dark Angels, Grey Knights or Thousand Sons. I could absolutely see a box with a few dark Angels, a character, a single unit of grey knights, versus some Tsons.
Still, I'm really surprised that we have nothing about this release, not a peep, a rumour, nothing. Guess those DAs are indeed good at keeping secrets.
Nothing except a direct statement from GW that we should expect _A_ character with each book, no more, no less.
At this point we know the formula to expect: a pseudo-supplement for DA and TS.
On the plus side for TS, as the only chaos force, they'll likely get similar rules coverage to what the combined (non-DG) legions got in Faith and Fury, though they may split it with Grey Knights.
It doesn't say that at all. It says each book will be accompanied by an epic champion. It certainly doesn't say that's all you're getting. It may be the case, but you are still making an assumption.
Shadowspear is the best boxed set GW have ever done in my opinion, they need to replicate that model for other factions.
Agreed. Shadowspear kind of set me up to be disappointed in Blood of the Phoenix.
Yes the Phoenix set was/is good value, but it being fewer models, fewer than half of which were new (and some very old ones) and being higher in price, savings aside, it didn't feel like nearly as good a box set.
bullyboy wrote: Were we expecting a Gloomspite Gitz box last Xmas? Nope, that came as a surprise I believe.
Even with a sisters release, there could still be a boxed release to accompany PA:4, maybe with just 1 or 2 new characters. None of the factions in this release got a Xmas battleforce, but we saw one for Blood Angels, Tyranids, Chaos, even Wolves and Tau which are coming up in the next 2 books. Nothing for Dark Angels, Grey Knights or Thousand Sons. I could absolutely see a box with a few dark Angels, a character, a single unit of grey knights, versus some Tsons.
Still, I'm really surprised that we have nothing about this release, not a peep, a rumour, nothing. Guess those DAs are indeed good at keeping secrets.
Nothing except a direct statement from GW that we should expect _A_ character with each book, no more, no less.
At this point we know the formula to expect: a pseudo-supplement for DA and TS.
On the plus side for TS, as the only chaos force, they'll likely get similar rules coverage to what the combined (non-DG) legions got in Faith and Fury, though they may split it with Grey Knights.
It doesn't say that at all. It says each book will be accompanied by an epic champion. It certainly doesn't say that's all you're getting. It may be the case, but you are still making an assumption.
So your assumption is you think they're hiding a selling point for the next book? In what universe does that make sense?
Shadowspear is the best boxed set GW have ever done in my opinion, they need to replicate that model for other factions.
Agreed. Shadowspear kind of set me up to be disappointed in Blood of the Phoenix.
Yes the Phoenix set was/is good value, but it being fewer models, fewer than half of which were new (and some very old ones) and being higher in price, savings aside, it didn't feel like nearly as good a box set.
I mean I think it's fair to say that Blood of the Phoenix straight up wasn't as good of a box set as Shadowspear. No doubt it didn't sell half as well either. And rightly so, because it was awful in comparison.
bullyboy wrote: Were we expecting a Gloomspite Gitz box last Xmas? Nope, that came as a surprise I believe.
Even with a sisters release, there could still be a boxed release to accompany PA:4, maybe with just 1 or 2 new characters. None of the factions in this release got a Xmas battleforce, but we saw one for Blood Angels, Tyranids, Chaos, even Wolves and Tau which are coming up in the next 2 books. Nothing for Dark Angels, Grey Knights or Thousand Sons. I could absolutely see a box with a few dark Angels, a character, a single unit of grey knights, versus some Tsons.
Still, I'm really surprised that we have nothing about this release, not a peep, a rumour, nothing. Guess those DAs are indeed good at keeping secrets.
Nothing except a direct statement from GW that we should expect _A_ character with each book, no more, no less.
At this point we know the formula to expect: a pseudo-supplement for DA and TS.
On the plus side for TS, as the only chaos force, they'll likely get similar rules coverage to what the combined (non-DG) legions got in Faith and Fury, though they may split it with Grey Knights.
It doesn't say that at all. It says each book will be accompanied by an epic champion. It certainly doesn't say that's all you're getting. It may be the case, but you are still making an assumption.
So your assumption is you think they're hiding a selling point for the next book? In what universe does that make sense?
I think it's fair and logical to say that GW may be keeping some of their cards close to their chest. Each book will get an epic champion, some may get more, some may only get what is stated. At least they can't be accused of over-hyping the fan base though.
I mean I think it's fair to say that Blood of the Phoenix straight up wasn't as good of a box set as Shadowspear. No doubt it didn't sell half as well either. And rightly so, because it was awful in comparison.
That's what I'm saying. It's a competent box set in a vacuum but coming on the heels of Shadowspear only makes it seem much worse and Shadowspear seem that much better by comparison.
I mean I think it's fair to say that Blood of the Phoenix straight up wasn't as good of a box set as Shadowspear. No doubt it didn't sell half as well either. And rightly so, because it was awful in comparison.
That's what I'm saying. It's a competent box set in a vacuum but coming on the heels of Shadowspear only makes it seem much worse and Shadowspear seem that much better by comparison.
Yea, I think Shadowspear has shown us what GW are capable of and how odd it was that we all just accepted the classic box set of; "1 or 2 new models - the rest is stuff you don't want and sucks". Hopefully GW has learnt from Shadowspear too - just imagine how many they'd sell if all box sets had more new models than old? If they like money, and we have every reason to believe they do, this seems like a no-brainer.
What's even more amusing is Shadowspear will continue to sell.
It has more and costs less than the two 'start collecting' boxes they made out of it.
Though I'd argue that BotP wasn't a competent box set at all. They misjudged the price point by at least $50, and filled it with pretty common stuff, some of which was already available in better boxes/deals.
So here's what I'm wondering - does anyone think that the Ritual of the Damned is Ahriman trying to undo the Rubric? Thanks to Yvraine in the Gathering Storm we know it's possible... but will it actually happen?
Voss wrote: What's even more amusing is Shadowspear will continue to sell.
It has more and costs less than the two 'start collecting' boxes they made out of it.
Though I'd argue that BotP wasn't a competent box set at all. They misjudged the price point by at least $50, and filled it with pretty common stuff, some of which was already available in better boxes/deals.
sadly GW will proably look at BotP as well as the fact that Wake the Dead didn't sell all that great (it sold out a lot slower then tooth and claw, for example) and conclude that there's not as much demand for eldar, at least where box sets are concerned, even though WTD was hobbled in comparsion by a degree of a glut of primaris on the market ( the only thing we couldn't get for cheaper by buying know no fear was Reivers) and the eldar kit offering "nothing of substance new"
tooth and claw meanwhile included a new unique HQ for space wolves, an upgrade kit and a bunch of new GSC stuff.
Manfred von Drakken wrote: So here's what I'm wondering - does anyone think that the Ritual of the Damned is Ahriman trying to undo the Rubric? Thanks to Yvraine in the Gathering Storm we know it's possible... but will it actually happen?
No. It obviously won't happen, as that crushes the mainstay of the TS product line.
Fluff-wise... I'd honestly hate to see that story again. He had his own personal trilogy of timey-whimey nonsense trying to do exactly that.
apparently PA3 referances newly awkened psykers being called to properio to receive instruction or something could be Magnus is going to use them to fuel some sort of ritual. His last ritual on properio breached the emperor's sheilding on terra, maybe he wants to redo that and open the path for a full on chaos invasion of terra?
Manfred von Drakken wrote: So here's what I'm wondering - does anyone think that the Ritual of the Damned is Ahriman trying to undo the Rubric? Thanks to Yvraine in the Gathering Storm we know it's possible... but will it actually happen?
Manfred von Drakken wrote: So here's what I'm wondering - does anyone think that the Ritual of the Damned is Ahriman trying to undo the Rubric? Thanks to Yvraine in the Gathering Storm we know it's possible... but will it actually happen?
Really?
Do tell more, please!
Thousand Sons codex mentions (Second War in the Webway, page 30) Yvraine restoring life to 12 rubrics right in front of Ahriman, who promptly die. The passage ends with "But now he knows that the reversal of his Rubric is possible, and he knows who has the power to do it."
Considering that he's tried to reverse this in the past, perhaps he did drop the project only to have this proof of concept reignite his drive to see it succeed. I haven't read the Ahriman books from 40k yet though, so I can't speak to that storyline.
Manfred von Drakken wrote: So here's what I'm wondering - does anyone think that the Ritual of the Damned is Ahriman trying to undo the Rubric? Thanks to Yvraine in the Gathering Storm we know it's possible... but will it actually happen?
Really?
Do tell more, please!
Thousand Sons codex mentions (Second War in the Webway, page 30) Yvraine restoring life to 12 rubrics right in front of Ahriman, who promptly die. The passage ends with "But now he knows that the reversal of his Rubric is possible, and he knows who has the power to do it."
Considering that he's tried to reverse this in the past, perhaps he did drop the project only to have this proof of concept reignite his drive to see it succeed. I haven't read the Ahriman books from 40k yet though, so I can't speak to that storyline.
Well, the Ahriman Novels by John French are all pre-8th Edition with the old Fluff of Ahriman hanging either with his own Renegade Warband, the Prodigal Sons, and/or occasionally the Black Legion, while mostly trying to not get killed by Thousands Sons, given he's the TS's and Magnus' enemy no. uno. Old-fluff, non-Rubric Thousand Sons would rather ally with Space Wolves than not kill Ahriman on sight. Not sure how they twisted the lore to get Ahriman into the Thousand Sons army again, but it kinda dates those books.
Manfred von Drakken wrote: So here's what I'm wondering - does anyone think that the Ritual of the Damned is Ahriman trying to undo the Rubric? Thanks to Yvraine in the Gathering Storm we know it's possible... but will it actually happen?
No. It obviously won't happen, as that crushes the mainstay of the TS product line.
Or... the ritual is successful, but only on one guy. Say hello to a new Thousand Sons character model for only £30!
Manfred von Drakken wrote: So here's what I'm wondering - does anyone think that the Ritual of the Damned is Ahriman trying to undo the Rubric? Thanks to Yvraine in the Gathering Storm we know it's possible... but will it actually happen?
Really?
Do tell more, please!
Thousand Sons codex mentions (Second War in the Webway, page 30) Yvraine restoring life to 12 rubrics right in front of Ahriman, who promptly die. The passage ends with "But now he knows that the reversal of his Rubric is possible, and he knows who has the power to do it."
Considering that he's tried to reverse this in the past, perhaps he did drop the project only to have this proof of concept reignite his drive to see it succeed. I haven't read the Ahriman books from 40k yet though, so I can't speak to that storyline.
Well, the Ahriman Novels by John French are all pre-8th Edition with the old Fluff of Ahriman hanging either with his own Renegade Warband, the Prodigal Sons, and/or occasionally the Black Legion, while mostly trying to not get killed by Thousands Sons, given he's the TS's and Magnus' enemy no. uno. Old-fluff, non-Rubric Thousand Sons would rather ally with Space Wolves than not kill Ahriman on sight. Not sure how they twisted the lore to get Ahriman into the Thousand Sons army again, but it kinda dates those books.
It was all done via the Wrath of Magnus campaign books i believe.
Wait, if Yvraine can reverse the Rubric, why doesn't Ahriman just slip that information to Magnus and let Mr. Demon Lord Primarch reverse the whole thing?
Stormonu wrote: Wait, if Yvraine can reverse the Rubric, why doesn't Ahriman just slip that information to Magnus and let Mr. Demon Lord Primarch reverse the whole thing?
He probably doesn't know how to do it/have access to the same powers that Yvraine has at a guess. Of course it might not be in tzeentch's interest to give them bodies back.
Manfred von Drakken wrote: So here's what I'm wondering - does anyone think that the Ritual of the Damned is Ahriman trying to undo the Rubric? Thanks to Yvraine in the Gathering Storm we know it's possible... but will it actually happen?
No. It obviously won't happen, as that crushes the mainstay of the TS product line.
Or... the ritual is successful, but only on one guy. Say hello to a new Thousand Sons character model for only £30!
But his last attempt was successful, but only on one marine.
I’d personally say it would be in Tzeentch’s interest to undo the Rubric for 2 reasons – He’ll get a better and stronger Legion of Thousand Son marines as they’ll be able to recruit properly again (though also maybe less reliable due to no longer being essentially robots), and, the flesh change would be back, giving him more things to play with.
I really do like the idea of Ahriman finally succeeding in reversing the Rubric across the board, and the potential that that then brings.
If this book is based around a new ritual to undo the rubric by psychically calling all able psykers to the Planet of the Sorcerers to power it, it’ll certainly be interesting to see what/if the Grey Knights and DA can do to stop it.
Manfred von Drakken wrote: So here's what I'm wondering - does anyone think that the Ritual of the Damned is Ahriman trying to undo the Rubric? Thanks to Yvraine in the Gathering Storm we know it's possible... but will it actually happen?
Really?
Do tell more, please!
Thousand Sons codex mentions (Second War in the Webway, page 30) Yvraine restoring life to 12 rubrics right in front of Ahriman, who promptly die. The passage ends with "But now he knows that the reversal of his Rubric is possible, and he knows who has the power to do it."
Considering that he's tried to reverse this in the past, perhaps he did drop the project only to have this proof of concept reignite his drive to see it succeed. I haven't read the Ahriman books from 40k yet though, so I can't speak to that storyline.
Why did they die straight away after being restored?
Manfred von Drakken wrote: So here's what I'm wondering - does anyone think that the Ritual of the Damned is Ahriman trying to undo the Rubric? Thanks to Yvraine in the Gathering Storm we know it's possible... but will it actually happen?
Really?
Do tell more, please!
Thousand Sons codex mentions (Second War in the Webway, page 30) Yvraine restoring life to 12 rubrics right in front of Ahriman, who promptly die. The passage ends with "But now he knows that the reversal of his Rubric is possible, and he knows who has the power to do it."
Considering that he's tried to reverse this in the past, perhaps he did drop the project only to have this proof of concept reignite his drive to see it succeed. I haven't read the Ahriman books from 40k yet though, so I can't speak to that storyline.
Why did they die straight away after being restored?
Because Ynnari and the Yncarne reasons. Something something, somehow split the webway tunnel and dragged them into the warp. Doesn't 100% say they died though, as Ahriman went after them trying to rescue them - so if he can survive it, in theory so could they.
Manfred von Drakken wrote: So here's what I'm wondering - does anyone think that the Ritual of the Damned is Ahriman trying to undo the Rubric? Thanks to Yvraine in the Gathering Storm we know it's possible... but will it actually happen?
Really?
Do tell more, please!
Thousand Sons codex mentions (Second War in the Webway, page 30) Yvraine restoring life to 12 rubrics right in front of Ahriman, who promptly die. The passage ends with "But now he knows that the reversal of his Rubric is possible, and he knows who has the power to do it."
Considering that he's tried to reverse this in the past, perhaps he did drop the project only to have this proof of concept reignite his drive to see it succeed. I haven't read the Ahriman books from 40k yet though, so I can't speak to that storyline.
Why did they die straight away after being restored?
Because Yvraine gave them life in a power dick move. Just to make Ahriman angry and distract him. Like "Look how easy can I do what you can't... but lolnope" and then kills them again.
Galas wrote: Because Yvraine gave them life in a power dick move. Just to make Ahriman angry and distract him. Like "Look how easy can I do what you can't... but lolnope" and then kills them again.
^This. Typical Aeldari arrogance. She brought them back just to kill them and piss off Ahriman
Stormonu wrote: Wait, if Yvraine can reverse the Rubric, why doesn't Ahriman just slip that information to Magnus and let Mr. Demon Lord Primarch reverse the whole thing?
He probably doesn't know how to do it/have access to the same powers that Yvraine has at a guess. Of course it might not be in tzeentch's interest to give them bodies back.
Tzeentch doesnt even know what Tzeentch's best interests are. For all we know, the Rubric was their plan all along as a way to further damn the TS. Assisting a nascent challenger to their power does kinda seem like something they would do. Since left head & right head have differing ideas of what is best.
Stormonu wrote: Wait, if Yvraine can reverse the Rubric, why doesn't Ahriman just slip that information to Magnus and let Mr. Demon Lord Primarch reverse the whole thing?
He probably doesn't know how to do it/have access to the same powers that Yvraine has at a guess. Of course it might not be in tzeentch's interest to give them bodies back.
Tzeentch doesnt even know what Tzeentch's best interests are. For all we know, the Rubric was their plan all along as a way to further damn the TS. Assisting a nascent challenger to their power does kinda seem like something they would do. Since left head & right head have differing ideas of what is best.
Yeah, if Tzeentch was angry about the Rubric, presumably it would have let Magnus kill Ahriman for doing it. Presumably. It's hard to speculate on any of Tzeentch's motivations or goals.
Galas wrote: Because Yvraine gave them life in a power dick move. Just to make Ahriman angry and distract him. Like "Look how easy can I do what you can't... but lolnope" and then kills them again.
^This. Typical Aeldari arrogance. She brought them back just to kill them and piss off Ahriman
-
I would have hopped you two would have had a better grasp of that narative than this nonsense. They were losing the battle with the Thousand Sons (because GW permenantly wants to keep the Phoenix Lords as useless, I mean they were ALL there and couldn't deal with a few Rubrics) and Ahriman was about to win, it was literally a last gasp attempt to win by turning 3 Rubrics back into Marines and then dumping them into the warp to get Ahriman to go chasing after them and leave the Ynnari alone. Makes a lot of sense in that respect.
BrianDavion wrote: apparently PA3 referances newly awkened psykers being called to properio to receive instruction or something could be Magnus is going to use them to fuel some sort of ritual. His last ritual on properio breached the emperor's sheilding on terra, maybe he wants to redo that and open the path for a full on chaos invasion of terra?
The emperor will rise from the throne and join the fight.
The Primarchs will gather. A new Class of models will get added to the game, "Gods of War."
They'll make a model for each chaos god and for the emperor and the eldar gods. Other Xenos will get nothing. They'll be better than titans, but less than 500 points and completely change the meta. 9 new imperial factions will get codexes, 1 new Chaos based faction will get an inferior codex. Xenos will get nothing and they'll like it.
9th edition launches, the galaxy gets torn asunder, and the reborn emperor will have to start all over. Cadia will be pulled from the warp and rebuilt, abaddon will be banished back to the eye, where a Yvarine (sp?) raised Horus will kill him for his failures. Cawl will go rouge and try to usurp Emps, and start a whole new story in which Mars becomes the dominate power.
Togusa wrote: The emperor will rise from the throne and join the fight.
The Primarchs will gather. A new Class of models will get added to the game, "Gods of War."
They'll make a model for each chaos god and for the emperor and the eldar gods. Other Xenos will get nothing. They'll be better than titans, but less than 500 points and completely change the meta. 9 new imperial factions will get codexes, 1 new Chaos based faction will get an inferior codex. Xenos will get nothing and they'll like it.
9th edition launches, the galaxy gets torn asunder, and the reborn emperor will have to start all over. Cadia will be pulled from the warp and rebuilt, abaddon will be banished back to the eye, where a Yvarine (sp?) raised Horus will kill him for his failures. Cawl will go rouge and try to usurp Emps, and start a whole new story in which Mars becomes the dominate power.
Togusa wrote: The emperor will rise from the throne and join the fight.
The Primarchs will gather. A new Class of models will get added to the game, "Gods of War."
They'll make a model for each chaos god and for the emperor and the eldar gods. Other Xenos will get nothing. They'll be better than titans, but less than 500 points and completely change the meta. 9 new imperial factions will get codexes, 1 new Chaos based faction will get an inferior codex. Xenos will get nothing and they'll like it.
9th edition launches, the galaxy gets torn asunder, and the reborn emperor will have to start all over. Cadia will be pulled from the warp and rebuilt, abaddon will be banished back to the eye, where a Yvarine (sp?) raised Horus will kill him for his failures. Cawl will go rouge and try to usurp Emps, and start a whole new story in which Mars becomes the dominate power.
Rian Johnson... is that really you?!?
dont inflate/deflate their ego...whichever one is worse
bullyboy wrote: Were we expecting a Gloomspite Gitz box last Xmas? Nope, that came as a surprise I believe.
Even with a sisters release, there could still be a boxed release to accompany PA:4, maybe with just 1 or 2 new characters. None of the factions in this release got a Xmas battleforce, but we saw one for Blood Angels, Tyranids, Chaos, even Wolves and Tau which are coming up in the next 2 books. Nothing for Dark Angels, Grey Knights or Thousand Sons. I could absolutely see a box with a few dark Angels, a character, a single unit of grey knights, versus some Tsons.
Still, I'm really surprised that we have nothing about this release, not a peep, a rumour, nothing. Guess those DAs are indeed good at keeping secrets.
Nothing except a direct statement from GW that we should expect _A_ character with each book, no more, no less.
At this point we know the formula to expect: a pseudo-supplement for DA and TS.
On the plus side for TS, as the only chaos force, they'll likely get similar rules coverage to what the combined (non-DG) legions got in Faith and Fury, though they may split it with Grey Knights.
It doesn't say that at all. It says each book will be accompanied by an epic champion. It certainly doesn't say that's all you're getting. It may be the case, but you are still making an assumption.
Gotta agree here, it doesn’t make it seem like that’s all, just that each will be getting one.
All these boxed sets that have been coming out for instance, they could have said they will ALL have a new character model which is true, but didn’t mean some boxes weren’t also containing new models.
Also the point of why would GW hold stuff back that was mentioned, I mean why not. Just because they said it’ll be a character each time that’s it? Book 6 has new kits let’s say, they’d tell us now? Three books before it comes out?
Bad business. They want to sell the now, not the later.
Not to say I think stuff is coming (I collect DA, I never get new stuff when I want it so we won’t there ).
But also, didn’t they say Christmas Day reveal for PA4? We shall see if it’s just a character or more..
bullyboy wrote: Were we expecting a Gloomspite Gitz box last Xmas? Nope, that came as a surprise I believe.
Even with a sisters release, there could still be a boxed release to accompany PA:4, maybe with just 1 or 2 new characters. None of the factions in this release got a Xmas battleforce, but we saw one for Blood Angels, Tyranids, Chaos, even Wolves and Tau which are coming up in the next 2 books. Nothing for Dark Angels, Grey Knights or Thousand Sons. I could absolutely see a box with a few dark Angels, a character, a single unit of grey knights, versus some Tsons.
Still, I'm really surprised that we have nothing about this release, not a peep, a rumour, nothing. Guess those DAs are indeed good at keeping secrets.
Nothing except a direct statement from GW that we should expect _A_ character with each book, no more, no less.
At this point we know the formula to expect: a pseudo-supplement for DA and TS.
On the plus side for TS, as the only chaos force, they'll likely get similar rules coverage to what the combined (non-DG) legions got in Faith and Fury, though they may split it with Grey Knights.
It doesn't say that at all. It says each book will be accompanied by an epic champion. It certainly doesn't say that's all you're getting. It may be the case, but you are still making an assumption.
Gotta agree here, it doesn’t make it seem like that’s all, just that each will be getting one.
All these boxed sets that have been coming out for instance, they could have said they will ALL have a new character model which is true, but didn’t mean some boxes weren’t also containing new models.
Also the point of why would GW hold stuff back that was mentioned, I mean why not. Just because they said it’ll be a character each time that’s it? Book 6 has new kits let’s say, they’d tell us now? Three books before it comes out?
Bad business. They want to sell the now, not the later.
Not to say I think stuff is coming (I collect DA, I never get new stuff when I want it so we won’t there ).
But also, didn’t they say Christmas Day reveal for PA4? We shall see if it’s just a character or more..
This feels like it's getting into full on wishlisting territory. Whilst previous statements from GW havn't completely ruled out the possibility of more than just a character getting released, they've also given us absolutely no reason at all to suspect there'll be anything more than just that, as foy your bad business comment, bad business is not building hype for the release of a luxury product.
And what do you mean by "All these boxed sets", PA has so far had a grand total of 1 boxed set, which will successfully go down as the single most underwhelming boxed set release in GW history. Other than that, the only other boxed sets out recently have been the standard christmas battle forces that are out every year and the limited Sisters of Battle boxed set, none of which have anything remotely to do with PA.
Alpharius wrote: You should try singing a different tune now and then - we’d all enjoy it, and you probably will too!
I do wish that this book series would be accompanied by a few more models per book though.
Even more marine models!
As should you. Some of us are sick of the obscene amount of Marine releases and don't want to play 40k Horus Heresy, thanks.
More marine models would be the stupidest thing GW could do right now excluding squatting every Xenos faction.
Come on now. You're telling me a marine release of 1 character would be worse than no models? It's clear dark angels will get the love in this book and it's no shock, especially since they're crap on every level atm.
Alpharius wrote: You should try singing a different tune now and then - we’d all enjoy it, and you probably will too!
I do wish that this book series would be accompanied by a few more models per book though.
Even more marine models!
As should you. Some of us are sick of the obscene amount of Marine releases and don't want to play 40k Horus Heresy, thanks.
More marine models would be the stupidest thing GW could do right now excluding squatting every Xenos faction.
Come on now. You're telling me a marine release of 1 character would be worse than no models? It's clear dark angels will get the love in this book and it's no shock, especially since they're crap on every level atm.
Speaking about crap, how about you take a look at most xenos armies before you wish for more marine releases?
This will come as a shock to you, but it's actually OK if not every single Astartes chapter kicks all kinds of ass for a change.
Alpharius wrote: You should try singing a different tune now and then - we’d all enjoy it, and you probably will too!
I do wish that this book series would be accompanied by a few more models per book though.
Even more marine models!
As should you. Some of us are sick of the obscene amount of Marine releases and don't want to play 40k Horus Heresy, thanks.
More marine models would be the stupidest thing GW could do right now excluding squatting every Xenos faction.
Come on now. You're telling me a marine release of 1 character would be worse than no models? It's clear dark angels will get the love in this book and it's no shock, especially since they're crap on every level atm.
Or maybe a non Marine faction should get a model and a supplement that pretends to be a campaign book.
Dark Angels have almost the same huge bloated range as all the other Marines plus all their myriad of stuff. So no IMO they don;t need new models more than all the actual full factions still waiting to have their basic range in plastic.
They DO need new rules but thats because they are suffer from the "curse" of having their own Codex and many feel that a Supplement is not good enough for them (unlike other First Founding chapters apparently)...
They could have updated all three Angels and Wolves Chapters when they released the Codex with a pdf. However instead the have relaeased pseudo-campaign to do this.
Alpharius wrote: You should try singing a different tune now and then - we’d all enjoy it, and you probably will too!
I do wish that this book series would be accompanied by a few more models per book though.
Even more marine models!
As should you. Some of us are sick of the obscene amount of Marine releases and don't want to play 40k Horus Heresy, thanks.
More marine models would be the stupidest thing GW could do right now excluding squatting every Xenos faction.
Come on now. You're telling me a marine release of 1 character would be worse than no models? It's clear dark angels will get the love in this book and it's no shock, especially since they're crap on every level atm.
Speaking about crap, how about you take a look at most xenos armies before you wish for more marine releases?
This will come as a shock to you, but it's actually OK if not every single Astartes chapter kicks all kinds of ass for a change.
It's not ok for an army to be sat at the bottom of the results table indefinitely though. Like it or not they are a separate army to codex marines.
Alpharius wrote: You should try singing a different tune now and then - we’d all enjoy it, and you probably will too!
I do wish that this book series would be accompanied by a few more models per book though.
Even more marine models!
As should you. Some of us are sick of the obscene amount of Marine releases and don't want to play 40k Horus Heresy, thanks.
More marine models would be the stupidest thing GW could do right now excluding squatting every Xenos faction.
Come on now. You're telling me a marine release of 1 character would be worse than no models? It's clear dark angels will get the love in this book and it's no shock, especially since they're crap on every level atm.
Or maybe a non Marine faction should get a model and a supplement that pretends to be a campaign book.
Dark Angels have almost the same huge bloated range as all the other Marines plus all their myriad of stuff. So no IMO they don;t need new models more than all the actual full factions still waiting to have their basic range in plastic.
They DO need new rules but thats because they are suffer from the "curse" of having their own Codex and many feel that a Supplement is not good enough for them (unlike other First Founding chapters apparently)...
They could have updated all three Angels and Wolves Chapters when they released the Codex with a pdf. However instead the have relaeased pseudo-campaign to do this.
All for non-Marine releases, but life doesn't end if dark angels get a character released. Never said they needed anything, just is nothing better than a marine hq?
bullyboy wrote: Were we expecting a Gloomspite Gitz box last Xmas? Nope, that came as a surprise I believe.
Even with a sisters release, there could still be a boxed release to accompany PA:4, maybe with just 1 or 2 new characters. None of the factions in this release got a Xmas battleforce, but we saw one for Blood Angels, Tyranids, Chaos, even Wolves and Tau which are coming up in the next 2 books. Nothing for Dark Angels, Grey Knights or Thousand Sons. I could absolutely see a box with a few dark Angels, a character, a single unit of grey knights, versus some Tsons.
Still, I'm really surprised that we have nothing about this release, not a peep, a rumour, nothing. Guess those DAs are indeed good at keeping secrets.
Nothing except a direct statement from GW that we should expect _A_ character with each book, no more, no less.
At this point we know the formula to expect: a pseudo-supplement for DA and TS.
On the plus side for TS, as the only chaos force, they'll likely get similar rules coverage to what the combined (non-DG) legions got in Faith and Fury, though they may split it with Grey Knights.
It doesn't say that at all. It says each book will be accompanied by an epic champion. It certainly doesn't say that's all you're getting. It may be the case, but you are still making an assumption.
Gotta agree here, it doesn’t make it seem like that’s all, just that each will be getting one.
All these boxed sets that have been coming out for instance, they could have said they will ALL have a new character model which is true, but didn’t mean some boxes weren’t also containing new models.
Also the point of why would GW hold stuff back that was mentioned, I mean why not. Just because they said it’ll be a character each time that’s it? Book 6 has new kits let’s say, they’d tell us now? Three books before it comes out?
Bad business. They want to sell the now, not the later.
Not to say I think stuff is coming (I collect DA, I never get new stuff when I want it so we won’t there ).
But also, didn’t they say Christmas Day reveal for PA4? We shall see if it’s just a character or more..
This feels like it's getting into full on wishlisting territory. Whilst previous statements from GW havn't completely ruled out the possibility of more than just a character getting released, they've also given us absolutely no reason at all to suspect there'll be anything more than just that, as foy your bad business comment, bad business is not building hype for the release of a luxury product.
And what do you mean by "All these boxed sets", PA has so far had a grand total of 1 boxed set, which will successfully go down as the single most underwhelming boxed set release in GW history. Other than that, the only other boxed sets out recently have been the standard christmas battle forces that are out every year and the limited Sisters of Battle boxed set, none of which have anything remotely to do with PA.
Might indeed be wishlisting, but it's not without precedent.
1. A Xmas Day reveal. Why do this? Why hype a reveal weeks before it's due just for a new book with one attached character? They could have just thrown it out there like they did Blood of Baal.
2. Last Xmas (and I believe the one before) had a surprise release (Gloomspite last year, with no leaks leading up to it).
3. This is book 4. We had a box for book 1, not for the next 2, perhaps it is time for another box release to tie in with the book.
If there is nothing really coming with this book (which could absolutely be the case, I'm not arguing that) it sure isn't doing them any favours with this 3 week hype delay for just a reveal, not even the book's release. people will be disappointed, and nobody wants to crap on people's parade Xmas day
I don't expect any more new models outside of a character, but that doesn't mean that there won't be a box set with filler models alongside the character(s) to promote the storyline. Neither DA or GK have a battleforce or start collecting set, that could be for a reason.
edit: And to really throw some fuel on the fire, an early rumour stated that DA will be fighting an Imperial faction in an upcoming box (could be BS for sure). But what if the GK stumble on a Fallen while investigating this psychic development near Prospero. What if they learn about Luther and his escape? What would the DA do to silence this reveal? Could be a real change in the dynamic (I am about 1% convinced about this btw, just throwing it out there)
Imateria wrote: I would have hopped you two would have had a better grasp of that narative than this nonsense. They were losing the battle with the Thousand Sons (because GW permenantly wants to keep the Phoenix Lords as useless, I mean they were ALL there and couldn't deal with a few Rubrics) and Ahriman was about to win, it was literally a last gasp attempt to win by turning 3 Rubrics back into Marines and then dumping them into the warp to get Ahriman to go chasing after them and leave the Ynnari alone. Makes a lot of sense in that respect.
I mean, yeah. I agree that is the REASON she did it. But you can't deny she probably enjoyed it and had a good laugh about it later.
Imateria wrote: I would have hopped you two would have had a better grasp of that narative than this nonsense. They were losing the battle with the Thousand Sons (because GW permenantly wants to keep the Phoenix Lords as useless, I mean they were ALL there and couldn't deal with a few Rubrics) and Ahriman was about to win, it was literally a last gasp attempt to win by turning 3 Rubrics back into Marines and then dumping them into the warp to get Ahriman to go chasing after them and leave the Ynnari alone. Makes a lot of sense in that respect.
I mean, yeah. I agree that is the REASON she did it. But you can't deny she probably enjoyed it and had a good laugh about it later.
-
Maybe, maybe not. At that point you're trying to infer something that the highly condensed text from the Gathering Storm just doesn't contain.
slave.entity wrote: Any chance of PA for daemons or GSC in the next 3 books?
Maybe, if Vigilius is Ghazghull's next recruiting ground. The Imp vs GSC vs Orks part of the war there was the War of Beasts and the Space wolves were involved in that one.
I still think it'd be strange if we don't return to Armageddon for his return, another location the Space Wolves have some history.
Manfred von Drakken wrote: So here's what I'm wondering - does anyone think that the Ritual of the Damned is Ahriman trying to undo the Rubric? Thanks to Yvraine in the Gathering Storm we know it's possible... but will it actually happen?
I'm actually thinking it's Magnus restoring Prospero back to how it was before the exterminatus happened. While they have reclaimed Prospero it's still a barren wasteland and in the Primarch book Magnus the Red he restores a half destroyed book using his psychic powers. This would open up a narrative reason for new units as buildings containing weapons and vehicles will be brought back from ruin.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: They said PA would contain stuff for every faction so there should be (but whether that's anything significant, not so much)
Not neccessarily. They could be in PA7-???. Or has GW said 6th will be last?
Dudeface wrote: Come on now. You're telling me a marine release of 1 character would be worse than no models? It's clear dark angels will get the love in this book and it's no shock, especially since they're crap on every level atm.
But also, didn’t they say Christmas Day reveal for PA4? We shall see if it’s just a character or more..
I don't think they said the Christmas reveal is tied to PA4 specifically. It could be tied to something else.
"RITUAL OF THE DAMNED. FULL REVEAL 25TH DECEMBER". It's at the end of the PA4 teaser video.
Why would I watch a teaser video for a book I have absolutely no interest in? Fair enough though, hopefully it’s just the single DA character and that’s it as far as new models go. Either way, it’s yet another announcement to have no interest in. Shame.
Dudeface wrote: Come on now. You're telling me a marine release of 1 character would be worse than no models? It's clear dark angels will get the love in this book and it's no shock, especially since they're crap on every level atm.
Thanks for asking. Yes. Really yes.
You got your sisters - relax already.
You should be good for at least the next 20 years, minimum!
I've been holding off on painting my small Primaris collection, so I'm actually excited to see if Dark Angels get some goodies out of this book. Ist Legion should get some Dark Age tech.
Otherwise I'm considering Death Company Intercessors just for the funzies.
Maybe we will get some Dark Angel Successor rules?
Definitely feel like starting a non-compliant Chapter that isnt Space Wolves.
I’ll say this, time has gone by and I’ve warmed up to the legion added content in PA2. Not what I was expecting but definitely like building World Eater lists again.
Dudeface wrote: Come on now. You're telling me a marine release of 1 character would be worse than no models? It's clear dark angels will get the love in this book and it's no shock, especially since they're crap on every level atm.
Thanks for asking. Yes. Really yes.
You got your sisters - relax already.
You should be good for at least the next 20 years, minimum!
I am really not sure mocking comments like this help anyone do they?
for those thinking of big releases - The GW Chrstmas gift catalogue has already been released - ironically big double page splash on the Ltd Sistes box (that sold out in minutes) that no one can buy so guess they really did not expect to sell as many....
Even if there is no DA model for PA4 - its not like there are not releases for them in Forge World - unlike non Marine/non Custodes Factions.
Dudeface wrote: Come on now. You're telling me a marine release of 1 character would be worse than no models? It's clear dark angels will get the love in this book and it's no shock, especially since they're crap on every level atm.
Thanks for asking. Yes. Really yes.
You got your sisters - relax already.
You should be good for at least the next 20 years, minimum!
I am really not sure mocking comments like this help anyone do they?
for those thinking of big releases - The GW Chrstmas gift catalogue has already been released - ironically big double page splash on the Ltd Sistes box (that sold out in minutes) that no one can buy so guess they really did not expect to sell as many....
Even if there is no DA model for PA4 - its not like there are not releases for them in Forge World - unlike non Marine/non Custodes Factions.
You're right, I hope FW release some 30k minis for Eldar and Orks that don't have 40k rules now. Gotta keep those equal privileges!
But you're right people wanting GW to not release anything instead of a model for an army that doesn't interest them is pants on head stupid, so those comments in either direction doesn't help anyone.
Dudeface wrote: It's not ok for an army to be sat at the bottom of the results table indefinitely though.
Yes it is. Results tables are the results of tournament games. Tournament games are inherently biased against popular armies, especially armies which are even more popular with younger and less skilled players, simply because everyone brings the tools to beat them. If 40k was perfectly balanced for non-tournament play (where you generally either optimise against your actual opponent instead of the most likely opponent, or don't optimise against anything), the most popular army would be permanently at the bottom of tournament results. That would probably mean Codex Marines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Chaos Marines in that order, maybe Tau somewhere in the mix. The fact that any of those armies are anywhere in the top half of tournament results means the game is biased in their favour. Now you may not like that your army isn't as favoured as other marine armies, but realistically, being bottom of the tournament results while having the disadvantages of playing a popular army which shares weaknesses with all the other popular armies means that you still have a strong list for normal gaming, probably still better than the average non-marine army.
If you shift the balance so that all marine armies are top-tier, you've effectively made the game unplayable for casual xenos players. Playing my Deathwatch (not generally considered a strong marine codex) against orks means an easy win every time. Playing my orks against any kind of marines is an uphill struggle. Exactly how bad the difference is has varied a bit over the years, but there has always been the same issue. Marines have always been playing the game on easy mode and tournament results do not reflect that because tournament results are biased by an army's popularity.
If you really want Dark Angels to be competitive with more popular marines, you need to address the entire premise that the most popular army needs to be constantly buffed to stay above the bottom of tournament results. As the least popular marine codex, that will only ever work against you. Instead, push for an actually balanced game where all marines are where they should be; average in normal play, bottom of tournament results.
Dudeface wrote: Come on now. You're telling me a marine release of 1 character would be worse than no models? It's clear dark angels will get the love in this book and it's no shock, especially since they're crap on every level atm.
Thanks for asking. Yes. Really yes.
You got your sisters - relax already.
You should be good for at least the next 20 years, minimum!
I am really not sure mocking comments like this help anyone do they?
for those thinking of big releases - The GW Chrstmas gift catalogue has already been released - ironically big double page splash on the Ltd Sistes box (that sold out in minutes) that no one can buy so guess they really did not expect to sell as many....
Even if there is no DA model for PA4 - its not like there are not releases for them in Forge World - unlike non Marine/non Custodes Factions.
You're right, I hope FW release some 30k minis for Eldar and Orks that don't have 40k rules now. Gotta keep those equal privileges!
But you're right people wanting GW to not release anything instead of a model for an army that doesn't interest them is pants on head stupid, so those comments in either direction doesn't help anyone.
Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't make their stance stupid. Continually building resentment towards an army is not good for the hobby. Getting players of different factions excited for the game is good for the hobby. The continued release of nothing but marines is building resentment and killing interest for non-marine players. Especially if the difference in rules quality is marines get the top of the line everything and everyone else gets a bag of dirty needles.
So yes, yet another marine model and the "supplement" that goes with it would not be worth the backlash. Simply giving something else some love and/or changing the order so it isn't non-stop marines since August would do a lot of good. It's a little odd that there was enough time to make supplement tier rules for every possible flavor of marine, but not enough time to proofread the annual balance patch. GK and TS are different enough though that it could be a nice change of pace if they get the attention over yet another basic marine reskin.
Dudeface wrote: It's not ok for an army to be sat at the bottom of the results table indefinitely though.
Yes it is. Results tables are the results of tournament games. Tournament games are inherently biased against popular armies, especially armies which are even more popular with younger and less skilled players, simply because everyone brings the tools to beat them. If 40k was perfectly balanced for non-tournament play (where you generally either optimise against your actual opponent instead of the most likely opponent, or don't optimise against anything), the most popular army would be permanently at the bottom of tournament results. That would probably mean Codex Marines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Chaos Marines in that order, maybe Tau somewhere in the mix. The fact that any of those armies are anywhere in the top half of tournament results means the game is biased in their favour. Now you may not like that your army isn't as favoured as other marine armies, but realistically, being bottom of the tournament results while having the disadvantages of playing a popular army which shares weaknesses with all the other popular armies means that you still have a strong list for normal gaming, probably still better than the average non-marine army.
If you shift the balance so that all marine armies are top-tier, you've effectively made the game unplayable for casual xenos players. Playing my Deathwatch (not generally considered a strong marine codex) against orks means an easy win every time. Playing my orks against any kind of marines is an uphill struggle. Exactly how bad the difference is has varied a bit over the years, but there has always been the same issue. Marines have always been playing the game on easy mode and tournament results do not reflect that because tournament results are biased by an army's popularity.
If you really want Dark Angels to be competitive with more popular marines, you need to address the entire premise that the most popular army needs to be constantly buffed to stay above the bottom of tournament results. As the least popular marine codex, that will only ever work against you. Instead, push for an actually balanced game where all marines are where they should be; average in normal play, bottom of tournament results.
If you look at the number of lists on 40kstats there are 17 lists for DA, and 59 for Orks. There are obviously more people playing Orks than DA. DA have a monofaction winrate of 41% compared to orks 49%. Non-codex marines are nowhere near as popular in the tournament scene as you seem to believe.
It's not okay for DA to be stuck with bad rules and have to share points costs with a more complete codex. I don't think most DA players (myself included) are looking to get buffed to be the top army in the game, we just want access to the same strats and rules that we are already paying the points costs for. For example, we are paying 12pts for Tac Marines that don't get doctrines. CSM pays 11pts for the same Tac Marines.
Also by your argument, if Marines are average in regular play and bottom in tournament play then DA are stuck below normal SM again and at the actual very bottom of the tournament play bracket... which is where we have been for the last 2 years.
But also, didn’t they say Christmas Day reveal for PA4? We shall see if it’s just a character or more..
I don't think they said the Christmas reveal is tied to PA4 specifically. It could be tied to something else.
"RITUAL OF THE DAMNED. FULL REVEAL 25TH DECEMBER". It's at the end of the PA4 teaser video.
Why would I watch a teaser video for a book I have absolutely no interest in? Fair enough though, hopefully it’s just the single DA character and that’s it as far as new models go. Either way, it’s yet another announcement to have no interest in. Shame.
You were putting out incorrect info so I corrected you. There's no need to get defensive, I only used caps because it's capitalised in the video and I'm weird like that.
But also, didn’t they say Christmas Day reveal for PA4? We shall see if it’s just a character or more..
I don't think they said the Christmas reveal is tied to PA4 specifically. It could be tied to something else.
"RITUAL OF THE DAMNED. FULL REVEAL 25TH DECEMBER". It's at the end of the PA4 teaser video.
Why would I watch a teaser video for a book I have absolutely no interest in? Fair enough though, hopefully it’s just the single DA character and that’s it as far as new models go. Either way, it’s yet another announcement to have no interest in. Shame.
You were putting out incorrect info so I corrected you. There's no need to get defensive, I only used caps because it's capitalised in the video and I'm weird like that.
Dudeface wrote: It's not ok for an army to be sat at the bottom of the results table indefinitely though.
Yes it is. Results tables are the results of tournament games. Tournament games are inherently biased against popular armies, especially armies which are even more popular with younger and less skilled players, simply because everyone brings the tools to beat them. If 40k was perfectly balanced for non-tournament play (where you generally either optimise against your actual opponent instead of the most likely opponent, or don't optimise against anything), the most popular army would be permanently at the bottom of tournament results. That would probably mean Codex Marines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Chaos Marines in that order, maybe Tau somewhere in the mix. The fact that any of those armies are anywhere in the top half of tournament results means the game is biased in their favour. Now you may not like that your army isn't as favoured as other marine armies, but realistically, being bottom of the tournament results while having the disadvantages of playing a popular army which shares weaknesses with all the other popular armies means that you still have a strong list for normal gaming, probably still better than the average non-marine army.
If you shift the balance so that all marine armies are top-tier, you've effectively made the game unplayable for casual xenos players. Playing my Deathwatch (not generally considered a strong marine codex) against orks means an easy win every time. Playing my orks against any kind of marines is an uphill struggle. Exactly how bad the difference is has varied a bit over the years, but there has always been the same issue. Marines have always been playing the game on easy mode and tournament results do not reflect that because tournament results are biased by an army's popularity.
If you really want Dark Angels to be competitive with more popular marines, you need to address the entire premise that the most popular army needs to be constantly buffed to stay above the bottom of tournament results. As the least popular marine codex, that will only ever work against you. Instead, push for an actually balanced game where all marines are where they should be; average in normal play, bottom of tournament results.
If you look at the number of lists on 40kstats there are 17 lists for DA, and 59 for Orks. There are obviously more people playing Orks than DA. DA have a monofaction winrate of 41% compared to orks 49%. Non-codex marines are nowhere near as popular in the tournament scene as you seem to believe.
It's not okay for DA to be stuck with bad rules and have to share points costs with a more complete codex. I don't think most DA players (myself included) are looking to get buffed to be the top army in the game, we just want access to the same strats and rules that we are already paying the points costs for. For example, we are paying 12pts for Tac Marines that don't get doctrines. CSM pays 11pts for the same Tac Marines.
Also by your argument, if Marines are average in regular play and bottom in tournament play then DA are stuck below normal SM again and at the actual very bottom of the tournament play bracket... which is where we have been for the last 2 years.
So no DA model needed - agreed. Just rules and of course all the models that keep coming from FW anyway, oh and all the generic marine models that they can use.....
Which would have been solved with a page pdf and/or a supplement - not a pretend campaign.
but some feel that DA must have another Codex and full model release because...........they just do and all the new Marine models that got via standard Marines somehow don't count.
Same as I am sure thet feel there should be Codex's or at least supplements for at least a couple of each of the Sept, Dynasty, Order Cult, Kabal, Regiment, Troupe etc. RIGHT?
Dudeface wrote: It's not ok for an army to be sat at the bottom of the results table indefinitely though.
Yes it is. Results tables are the results of tournament games. Tournament games are inherently biased against popular armies, especially armies which are even more popular with younger and less skilled players, simply because everyone brings the tools to beat them. If 40k was perfectly balanced for non-tournament play (where you generally either optimise against your actual opponent instead of the most likely opponent, or don't optimise against anything), the most popular army would be permanently at the bottom of tournament results. That would probably mean Codex Marines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Chaos Marines in that order, maybe Tau somewhere in the mix. The fact that any of those armies are anywhere in the top half of tournament results means the game is biased in their favour. Now you may not like that your army isn't as favoured as other marine armies, but realistically, being bottom of the tournament results while having the disadvantages of playing a popular army which shares weaknesses with all the other popular armies means that you still have a strong list for normal gaming, probably still better than the average non-marine army.
If you shift the balance so that all marine armies are top-tier, you've effectively made the game unplayable for casual xenos players. Playing my Deathwatch (not generally considered a strong marine codex) against orks means an easy win every time. Playing my orks against any kind of marines is an uphill struggle. Exactly how bad the difference is has varied a bit over the years, but there has always been the same issue. Marines have always been playing the game on easy mode and tournament results do not reflect that because tournament results are biased by an army's popularity.
If you really want Dark Angels to be competitive with more popular marines, you need to address the entire premise that the most popular army needs to be constantly buffed to stay above the bottom of tournament results. As the least popular marine codex, that will only ever work against you. Instead, push for an actually balanced game where all marines are where they should be; average in normal play, bottom of tournament results.
If you look at the number of lists on 40kstats there are 17 lists for DA, and 59 for Orks. There are obviously more people playing Orks than DA. DA have a monofaction winrate of 41% compared to orks 49%. Non-codex marines are nowhere near as popular in the tournament scene as you seem to believe.
It's not okay for DA to be stuck with bad rules and have to share points costs with a more complete codex. I don't think most DA players (myself included) are looking to get buffed to be the top army in the game, we just want access to the same strats and rules that we are already paying the points costs for. For example, we are paying 12pts for Tac Marines that don't get doctrines. CSM pays 11pts for the same Tac Marines.
Also by your argument, if Marines are average in regular play and bottom in tournament play then DA are stuck below normal SM again and at the actual very bottom of the tournament play bracket... which is where we have been for the last 2 years.
So no DA model needed - agreed. Just rules and of course all the models that keep coming from FW anyway, oh and all the generic marine models that they can use.....
Which would have been solved with a page pdf and/or a supplement - not a pretend campaign.
but some feel that DA must have another Codex and full model release because...........they just do and all the new Marine models that got via standard Marines somehow don't count.
Same as I am sure thet feel there should be Codex's or at least supplements for at least a couple of each of the Sept, Dynasty, Order Cult, Kabal, Regiment, Troupe etc. RIGHT?
No. Dark Angels have been an army for 20 years, they've had stand alone models for 20 years. Longer than septs or dynasties have existed.
Stop using FW as a scapegoat for releases. Horus heresy releases =/= 40k releases.
Marine hatred is a bigger cancer upon this community atm than marine releases are
Stormonu wrote: Wait, if Yvraine can reverse the Rubric, why doesn't Ahriman just slip that information to Magnus and let Mr. Demon Lord Primarch reverse the whole thing?
He probably doesn't know how to do it/have access to the same powers that Yvraine has at a guess. Of course it might not be in tzeentch's interest to give them bodies back.
Tzeentch doesnt even know what Tzeentch's best interests are. For all we know, the Rubric was their plan all along as a way to further damn the TS. Assisting a nascent challenger to their power does kinda seem like something they would do. Since left head & right head have differing ideas of what is best.
Yeah, if Tzeentch was angry about the Rubric, presumably it would have let Magnus kill Ahriman for doing it. Presumably. It's hard to speculate on any of Tzeentch's motivations or goals.
Tzeentch knows there's only one scenario where he wins.
Dudeface wrote: It's not ok for an army to be sat at the bottom of the results table indefinitely though.
Yes it is. Results tables are the results of tournament games. Tournament games are inherently biased against popular armies, especially armies which are even more popular with younger and less skilled players, simply because everyone brings the tools to beat them. If 40k was perfectly balanced for non-tournament play (where you generally either optimise against your actual opponent instead of the most likely opponent, or don't optimise against anything), the most popular army would be permanently at the bottom of tournament results. That would probably mean Codex Marines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Chaos Marines in that order, maybe Tau somewhere in the mix. The fact that any of those armies are anywhere in the top half of tournament results means the game is biased in their favour. Now you may not like that your army isn't as favoured as other marine armies, but realistically, being bottom of the tournament results while having the disadvantages of playing a popular army which shares weaknesses with all the other popular armies means that you still have a strong list for normal gaming, probably still better than the average non-marine army.
If you shift the balance so that all marine armies are top-tier, you've effectively made the game unplayable for casual xenos players. Playing my Deathwatch (not generally considered a strong marine codex) against orks means an easy win every time. Playing my orks against any kind of marines is an uphill struggle. Exactly how bad the difference is has varied a bit over the years, but there has always been the same issue. Marines have always been playing the game on easy mode and tournament results do not reflect that because tournament results are biased by an army's popularity.
If you really want Dark Angels to be competitive with more popular marines, you need to address the entire premise that the most popular army needs to be constantly buffed to stay above the bottom of tournament results. As the least popular marine codex, that will only ever work against you. Instead, push for an actually balanced game where all marines are where they should be; average in normal play, bottom of tournament results.
If you look at the number of lists on 40kstats there are 17 lists for DA, and 59 for Orks. There are obviously more people playing Orks than DA. DA have a monofaction winrate of 41% compared to orks 49%. Non-codex marines are nowhere near as popular in the tournament scene as you seem to believe.
It's not okay for DA to be stuck with bad rules and have to share points costs with a more complete codex. I don't think most DA players (myself included) are looking to get buffed to be the top army in the game, we just want access to the same strats and rules that we are already paying the points costs for. For example, we are paying 12pts for Tac Marines that don't get doctrines. CSM pays 11pts for the same Tac Marines.
Also by your argument, if Marines are average in regular play and bottom in tournament play then DA are stuck below normal SM again and at the actual very bottom of the tournament play bracket... which is where we have been for the last 2 years.
So no DA model needed - agreed. Just rules and of course all the models that keep coming from FW anyway, oh and all the generic marine models that they can use.....
Which would have been solved with a page pdf and/or a supplement - not a pretend campaign.
but some feel that DA must have another Codex and full model release because...........they just do and all the new Marine models that got via standard Marines somehow don't count.
Same as I am sure thet feel there should be Codex's or at least supplements for at least a couple of each of the Sept, Dynasty, Order Cult, Kabal, Regiment, Troupe etc. RIGHT?
No. Dark Angels have been an army for 20 years, they've had stand alone models for 20 years. Longer than septs or dynasties have existed.
Stop using FW as a scapegoat for releases. Horus heresy releases =/= 40k releases.
Marine hatred is a bigger cancer upon this community atm than marine releases are
"Sigh" read my Sig - I AM A MARINE PLAYER - oh and large Dark Angels army - unlike some I am not obsesed with a single sub-sub faction that sucks all the resourses out.
So no HH era models work as 40k models or have 40k rules eh? Wierd cos looks like they do.
Dudeface wrote: It's not ok for an army to be sat at the bottom of the results table indefinitely though.
Yes it is. Results tables are the results of tournament games. Tournament games are inherently biased against popular armies, especially armies which are even more popular with younger and less skilled players, simply because everyone brings the tools to beat them. If 40k was perfectly balanced for non-tournament play (where you generally either optimise against your actual opponent instead of the most likely opponent, or don't optimise against anything), the most popular army would be permanently at the bottom of tournament results. That would probably mean Codex Marines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Chaos Marines in that order, maybe Tau somewhere in the mix. The fact that any of those armies are anywhere in the top half of tournament results means the game is biased in their favour. Now you may not like that your army isn't as favoured as other marine armies, but realistically, being bottom of the tournament results while having the disadvantages of playing a popular army which shares weaknesses with all the other popular armies means that you still have a strong list for normal gaming, probably still better than the average non-marine army.
If you shift the balance so that all marine armies are top-tier, you've effectively made the game unplayable for casual xenos players. Playing my Deathwatch (not generally considered a strong marine codex) against orks means an easy win every time. Playing my orks against any kind of marines is an uphill struggle. Exactly how bad the difference is has varied a bit over the years, but there has always been the same issue. Marines have always been playing the game on easy mode and tournament results do not reflect that because tournament results are biased by an army's popularity.
If you really want Dark Angels to be competitive with more popular marines, you need to address the entire premise that the most popular army needs to be constantly buffed to stay above the bottom of tournament results. As the least popular marine codex, that will only ever work against you. Instead, push for an actually balanced game where all marines are where they should be; average in normal play, bottom of tournament results.
If you look at the number of lists on 40kstats there are 17 lists for DA, and 59 for Orks. There are obviously more people playing Orks than DA. DA have a monofaction winrate of 41% compared to orks 49%. Non-codex marines are nowhere near as popular in the tournament scene as you seem to believe.
It's not okay for DA to be stuck with bad rules and have to share points costs with a more complete codex. I don't think most DA players (myself included) are looking to get buffed to be the top army in the game, we just want access to the same strats and rules that we are already paying the points costs for. For example, we are paying 12pts for Tac Marines that don't get doctrines. CSM pays 11pts for the same Tac Marines.
Also by your argument, if Marines are average in regular play and bottom in tournament play then DA are stuck below normal SM again and at the actual very bottom of the tournament play bracket... which is where we have been for the last 2 years.
So no DA model needed - agreed. Just rules and of course all the models that keep coming from FW anyway, oh and all the generic marine models that they can use.....
Which would have been solved with a page pdf and/or a supplement - not a pretend campaign.
but some feel that DA must have another Codex and full model release because...........they just do and all the new Marine models that got via standard Marines somehow don't count.
Same as I am sure thet feel there should be Codex's or at least supplements for at least a couple of each of the Sept, Dynasty, Order Cult, Kabal, Regiment, Troupe etc. RIGHT?
No. Dark Angels have been an army for 20 years, they've had stand alone models for 20 years. Longer than septs or dynasties have existed.
Stop using FW as a scapegoat for releases. Horus heresy releases =/= 40k releases.
Marine hatred is a bigger cancer upon this community atm than marine releases are
"Sigh" read my Sig - I AM A MARINE PLAYER - oh and large Dark Angels army - unlike some I am not obsesed with a single sub-sub faction that sucks all the resourses out.
So no HH era models work as 40k models or have 40k rules eh? Wierd cos looks like they do.
You keep mentioning you're a marine player. You seem sick of saying it. The good news is that you can stop if you want - there's no need to mention it, no matter what your opinions on marines are, I don't think it makes much difference.
Dudeface wrote: It's not ok for an army to be sat at the bottom of the results table indefinitely though.
Yes it is. Results tables are the results of tournament games. Tournament games are inherently biased against popular armies, especially armies which are even more popular with younger and less skilled players, simply because everyone brings the tools to beat them. If 40k was perfectly balanced for non-tournament play (where you generally either optimise against your actual opponent instead of the most likely opponent, or don't optimise against anything), the most popular army would be permanently at the bottom of tournament results. That would probably mean Codex Marines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Chaos Marines in that order, maybe Tau somewhere in the mix. The fact that any of those armies are anywhere in the top half of tournament results means the game is biased in their favour. Now you may not like that your army isn't as favoured as other marine armies, but realistically, being bottom of the tournament results while having the disadvantages of playing a popular army which shares weaknesses with all the other popular armies means that you still have a strong list for normal gaming, probably still better than the average non-marine army.
If you shift the balance so that all marine armies are top-tier, you've effectively made the game unplayable for casual xenos players. Playing my Deathwatch (not generally considered a strong marine codex) against orks means an easy win every time. Playing my orks against any kind of marines is an uphill struggle. Exactly how bad the difference is has varied a bit over the years, but there has always been the same issue. Marines have always been playing the game on easy mode and tournament results do not reflect that because tournament results are biased by an army's popularity.
If you really want Dark Angels to be competitive with more popular marines, you need to address the entire premise that the most popular army needs to be constantly buffed to stay above the bottom of tournament results. As the least popular marine codex, that will only ever work against you. Instead, push for an actually balanced game where all marines are where they should be; average in normal play, bottom of tournament results.
If you look at the number of lists on 40kstats there are 17 lists for DA, and 59 for Orks. There are obviously more people playing Orks than DA. DA have a monofaction winrate of 41% compared to orks 49%. Non-codex marines are nowhere near as popular in the tournament scene as you seem to believe.
It's not okay for DA to be stuck with bad rules and have to share points costs with a more complete codex. I don't think most DA players (myself included) are looking to get buffed to be the top army in the game, we just want access to the same strats and rules that we are already paying the points costs for. For example, we are paying 12pts for Tac Marines that don't get doctrines. CSM pays 11pts for the same Tac Marines.
Also by your argument, if Marines are average in regular play and bottom in tournament play then DA are stuck below normal SM again and at the actual very bottom of the tournament play bracket... which is where we have been for the last 2 years.
So no DA model needed - agreed. Just rules and of course all the models that keep coming from FW anyway, oh and all the generic marine models that they can use.....
Which would have been solved with a page pdf and/or a supplement - not a pretend campaign.
but some feel that DA must have another Codex and full model release because...........they just do and all the new Marine models that got via standard Marines somehow don't count.
Same as I am sure thet feel there should be Codex's or at least supplements for at least a couple of each of the Sept, Dynasty, Order Cult, Kabal, Regiment, Troupe etc. RIGHT?
No. Dark Angels have been an army for 20 years, they've had stand alone models for 20 years. Longer than septs or dynasties have existed.
Stop using FW as a scapegoat for releases. Horus heresy releases =/= 40k releases.
Marine hatred is a bigger cancer upon this community atm than marine releases are
"Sigh" read my Sig - I AM A MARINE PLAYER - oh and large Dark Angels army - unlike some I am not obsesed with a single sub-sub faction that sucks all the resourses out.
So no HH era models work as 40k models or have 40k rules eh? Wierd cos looks like they do.
You're being intentionally obtuse. I never said no heresy era models have rules. But I'd love you to find me 40k rules for a sabre tank, or a jump pack dread, or arquitor bombard. I can assure you that you can't. You know, recent releases.
Forgeworld isn't even accepted at some tourneys still.
Dudeface wrote: It's not ok for an army to be sat at the bottom of the results table indefinitely though.
Yes it is. Results tables are the results of tournament games. Tournament games are inherently biased against popular armies, especially armies which are even more popular with younger and less skilled players, simply because everyone brings the tools to beat them. If 40k was perfectly balanced for non-tournament play (where you generally either optimise against your actual opponent instead of the most likely opponent, or don't optimise against anything), the most popular army would be permanently at the bottom of tournament results. That would probably mean Codex Marines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Chaos Marines in that order, maybe Tau somewhere in the mix. The fact that any of those armies are anywhere in the top half of tournament results means the game is biased in their favour. Now you may not like that your army isn't as favoured as other marine armies, but realistically, being bottom of the tournament results while having the disadvantages of playing a popular army which shares weaknesses with all the other popular armies means that you still have a strong list for normal gaming, probably still better than the average non-marine army.
If you shift the balance so that all marine armies are top-tier, you've effectively made the game unplayable for casual xenos players. Playing my Deathwatch (not generally considered a strong marine codex) against orks means an easy win every time. Playing my orks against any kind of marines is an uphill struggle. Exactly how bad the difference is has varied a bit over the years, but there has always been the same issue. Marines have always been playing the game on easy mode and tournament results do not reflect that because tournament results are biased by an army's popularity.
If you really want Dark Angels to be competitive with more popular marines, you need to address the entire premise that the most popular army needs to be constantly buffed to stay above the bottom of tournament results. As the least popular marine codex, that will only ever work against you. Instead, push for an actually balanced game where all marines are where they should be; average in normal play, bottom of tournament results.
If you look at the number of lists on 40kstats there are 17 lists for DA, and 59 for Orks. There are obviously more people playing Orks than DA. DA have a monofaction winrate of 41% compared to orks 49%. Non-codex marines are nowhere near as popular in the tournament scene as you seem to believe.
It's not okay for DA to be stuck with bad rules and have to share points costs with a more complete codex. I don't think most DA players (myself included) are looking to get buffed to be the top army in the game, we just want access to the same strats and rules that we are already paying the points costs for. For example, we are paying 12pts for Tac Marines that don't get doctrines. CSM pays 11pts for the same Tac Marines.
Also by your argument, if Marines are average in regular play and bottom in tournament play then DA are stuck below normal SM again and at the actual very bottom of the tournament play bracket... which is where we have been for the last 2 years.
So no DA model needed - agreed. Just rules and of course all the models that keep coming from FW anyway, oh and all the generic marine models that they can use.....
Which would have been solved with a page pdf and/or a supplement - not a pretend campaign.
but some feel that DA must have another Codex and full model release because...........they just do and all the new Marine models that got via standard Marines somehow don't count.
Same as I am sure thet feel there should be Codex's or at least supplements for at least a couple of each of the Sept, Dynasty, Order Cult, Kabal, Regiment, Troupe etc. RIGHT?
No. Dark Angels have been an army for 20 years, they've had stand alone models for 20 years. Longer than septs or dynasties have existed.
Stop using FW as a scapegoat for releases. Horus heresy releases =/= 40k releases.
Marine hatred is a bigger cancer upon this community atm than marine releases are
"Sigh" read my Sig - I AM A MARINE PLAYER - oh and large Dark Angels army - unlike some I am not obsesed with a single sub-sub faction that sucks all the resourses out.
So no HH era models work as 40k models or have 40k rules eh? Wierd cos looks like they do.
Not everyone can see signatures, for what it’s worth. On my iPad sigs don’t show.
But also, didn’t they say Christmas Day reveal for PA4? We shall see if it’s just a character or more..
I don't think they said the Christmas reveal is tied to PA4 specifically. It could be tied to something else.
"RITUAL OF THE DAMNED. FULL REVEAL 25TH DECEMBER". It's at the end of the PA4 teaser video.
Why would I watch a teaser video for a book I have absolutely no interest in? Fair enough though, hopefully it’s just the single DA character and that’s it as far as new models go. Either way, it’s yet another announcement to have no interest in. Shame.
You were putting out incorrect info so I corrected you. There's no need to get defensive, I only used caps because it's capitalised in the video and I'm weird like that.
There's quite literally nothing defensive in my post but OK. Perhaps I was unclear - thanks for the correction, shame the announcement will be a snoozefest for me.
Dudeface wrote: It's not ok for an army to be sat at the bottom of the results table indefinitely though.
Yes it is. Results tables are the results of tournament games. Tournament games are inherently biased against popular armies, especially armies which are even more popular with younger and less skilled players, simply because everyone brings the tools to beat them. If 40k was perfectly balanced for non-tournament play (where you generally either optimise against your actual opponent instead of the most likely opponent, or don't optimise against anything), the most popular army would be permanently at the bottom of tournament results. That would probably mean Codex Marines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Chaos Marines in that order, maybe Tau somewhere in the mix. The fact that any of those armies are anywhere in the top half of tournament results means the game is biased in their favour. Now you may not like that your army isn't as favoured as other marine armies, but realistically, being bottom of the tournament results while having the disadvantages of playing a popular army which shares weaknesses with all the other popular armies means that you still have a strong list for normal gaming, probably still better than the average non-marine army.
If you shift the balance so that all marine armies are top-tier, you've effectively made the game unplayable for casual xenos players. Playing my Deathwatch (not generally considered a strong marine codex) against orks means an easy win every time. Playing my orks against any kind of marines is an uphill struggle. Exactly how bad the difference is has varied a bit over the years, but there has always been the same issue. Marines have always been playing the game on easy mode and tournament results do not reflect that because tournament results are biased by an army's popularity.
If you really want Dark Angels to be competitive with more popular marines, you need to address the entire premise that the most popular army needs to be constantly buffed to stay above the bottom of tournament results. As the least popular marine codex, that will only ever work against you. Instead, push for an actually balanced game where all marines are where they should be; average in normal play, bottom of tournament results.
If you look at the number of lists on 40kstats there are 17 lists for DA, and 59 for Orks. There are obviously more people playing Orks than DA. DA have a monofaction winrate of 41% compared to orks 49%. Non-codex marines are nowhere near as popular in the tournament scene as you seem to believe.
It's not okay for DA to be stuck with bad rules and have to share points costs with a more complete codex. I don't think most DA players (myself included) are looking to get buffed to be the top army in the game, we just want access to the same strats and rules that we are already paying the points costs for. For example, we are paying 12pts for Tac Marines that don't get doctrines. CSM pays 11pts for the same Tac Marines.
Also by your argument, if Marines are average in regular play and bottom in tournament play then DA are stuck below normal SM again and at the actual very bottom of the tournament play bracket... which is where we have been for the last 2 years.
So no DA model needed - agreed. Just rules and of course all the models that keep coming from FW anyway, oh and all the generic marine models that they can use.....
Which would have been solved with a page pdf and/or a supplement - not a pretend campaign.
but some feel that DA must have another Codex and full model release because...........they just do and all the new Marine models that got via standard Marines somehow don't count.
Same as I am sure thet feel there should be Codex's or at least supplements for at least a couple of each of the Sept, Dynasty, Order Cult, Kabal, Regiment, Troupe etc. RIGHT?
No. Dark Angels have been an army for 20 years, they've had stand alone models for 20 years. Longer than septs or dynasties have existed.
Stop using FW as a scapegoat for releases. Horus heresy releases =/= 40k releases.
Marine hatred is a bigger cancer upon this community atm than marine releases are
"Sigh" read my Sig - I AM A MARINE PLAYER - oh and large Dark Angels army - unlike some I am not obsesed with a single sub-sub faction that sucks all the resourses out.
So no HH era models work as 40k models or have 40k rules eh? Wierd cos looks like they do.
You're being intentionally obtuse. I never said no heresy era models have rules. But I'd love you to find me 40k rules for a sabre tank, or a jump pack dread, or arquitor bombard. I can assure you that you can't. You know, recent releases.
Forgeworld isn't even accepted at some tourneys still.
I think its pretty obtuse to claim that any displeasure at the marine releases is a 'cancer' on the community. It is also incredibly stupid to claim that people would rather see 'nothing' than 'marine models'. This is obviously not true. People want SOMETHING ELSE. They are sick, tired and bored of marine model releases. While working on marine models GW could obviously use that time to work on other, none Marine models. That is what people want to see. This isn't a complex thing to unpack. I guarantee if another faction, any other faction, had anywhere near the number of releases as marines, the marine players would be the loudest complainers going. Just as they were the loudest complainers when their codex wasn't OP (they still had competitive builds, as much as most other factions).
The entitled marine mentality really sucks the fun out of this hobby.
I think its pretty obtuse to claim that any displeasure at the marine releases is a 'cancer' on the community.
Its certainly a cancer on News and Rumor threads, as the same handful of people can't stopped derailing threads by complaining about marines.
I don't disagree and have warned against going off topic multiple times.
I note there are as many marine apologists eager to jump on any negativity regarding marine releases (even when directly related to the N&R topic) as 'cancer' or 'derailing' etc
E - stating you dislike the Marine releases or are bored of the next PA (because it focuses on marines or whatever) is NOT off topic when the topic is 'PA releases'. It is no more off topic than "wow I love that model and can't wait for it".
I think its pretty obtuse to claim that any displeasure at the marine releases is a 'cancer' on the community.
Its certainly a cancer on News and Rumor threads, as the same handful of people can't stopped derailing threads by complaining about marines.
It really is isn't it. As people see to have missed all the other warnings lets make this one nice and big and red.
Enough. Anyone dragging N&R off topic to whine about this subject again will be suspended. I and most other people are sick of it. Stop. Now.
Stormonu wrote: Wait, if Yvraine can reverse the Rubric, why doesn't Ahriman just slip that information to Magnus and let Mr. Demon Lord Primarch reverse the whole thing?
He probably doesn't know how to do it/have access to the same powers that Yvraine has at a guess. Of course it might not be in tzeentch's interest to give them bodies back.
Tzeentch doesnt even know what Tzeentch's best interests are. For all we know, the Rubric was their plan all along as a way to further damn the TS. Assisting a nascent challenger to their power does kinda seem like something they would do. Since left head & right head have differing ideas of what is best.
Yeah, if Tzeentch was angry about the Rubric, presumably it would have let Magnus kill Ahriman for doing it. Presumably. It's hard to speculate on any of Tzeentch's motivations or goals.
Tzeentch knows there's only one scenario where he wins.
Just to throw more fuel on the fire - did anyone else notice that the new CSM kit's transfer sheet includes transfers for the Thousand Sons?
I imagine that was because they discontinued the old ones. The reboxed CSM Rhino likely comes with the new one, and this way you can put the TS icons on a TS Rhino.
So are there any rumors about this book yet? I'll even take the least credible ones you can come up with, I'm jonesing hard for info. I heard one thing about big rubric units being improved (whatever the hell that means) but nothing else so far.
This one isn't a rumor so much as a hope, but I hope Dangels get something related to defense as the second half of their chapter tactic like how red thirst got updated. Maybe something like save re-rolls of 1? Would help deathwing a ton and make the army more durable as a whole.
This came out yesterday. While it is just a story, I think it is interesting that Magnus is bring psykers to him and hopefully this will translate to something cool in the new PA (It probably won't though)
xeen wrote: This came out yesterday. While it is just a story, I think it is interesting that Magnus is bring psykers to him and hopefully this will translate to something cool in the new PA (It probably won't though)
maybe the one-eyed is trying to dump psykers on the afterburners for a super special ritual that totally wont backfire and make things better/worse(depending on POV)?
maybe an anti-astronomicon, something that allows daemons more time/power in the material plane?
xeen wrote: This came out yesterday. While it is just a story, I think it is interesting that Magnus is bring psykers to him and hopefully this will translate to something cool in the new PA (It probably won't though)
Magnus is selfish enuff to do this. so, if the rift having the unintended consequence of the emergence or more/powerful psykers could be crimping his style. he gets butthurt, goes & cries to Tzeentch, Tzeentch says all according to plan, more butthurting occurs and he tries to screw Tzeentch with a new ritual. he needs nine eyes of some superpowered psykers, yadda, yadda yadda.
he "succeeds/fails" & the psychic backlash allows BiggiE to be more active in material Plane. either rift grows or stops leaking and becomes a stable tear.
Sure. According to the imperium, they're witches, so 'damned' by default.
Nothing could possibly go wrong when the Crimson King's proxy is demanding an eye from those he's saving and taking them to Salvation. It's all fine, perfectly fine here.
xeen wrote: This came out yesterday. While it is just a story, I think it is interesting that Magnus is bring psykers to him and hopefully this will translate to something cool in the new PA (It probably won't though)
maybe the one-eyed is trying to dump psykers on the afterburners for a super special ritual that totally wont backfire and make things better/worse(depending on POV)?
maybe an anti-astronomicon, something that allows daemons more time/power in the material plane?
We actually already know his plan, AND how it will backfire. He's trying to kickstart the psychic awakening, with said psykers being under his control. What he isn't aware of is that Tzeentch is planning to use that psychic power to enter the physical world, which would basically warp all of reality as much as he wants it to.
xeen wrote: This came out yesterday. While it is just a story, I think it is interesting that Magnus is bring psykers to him and hopefully this will translate to something cool in the new PA (It probably won't though)
maybe the one-eyed is trying to dump psykers on the afterburners for a super special ritual that totally wont backfire and make things better/worse(depending on POV)?
maybe an anti-astronomicon, something that allows daemons more time/power in the material plane?
We actually already know his plan, AND how it will backfire. He's trying to kickstart the psychic awakening, with said psykers being under his control. What he isn't aware of is that Tzeentch is planning to use that psychic power to enter the physical world, which would basically warp all of reality as much as he wants it to.
Wait, how and why do we know this?
Not least because obviously that isn't going to happen, because then the setting goes boom.
xeen wrote: This came out yesterday. While it is just a story, I think it is interesting that Magnus is bring psykers to him and hopefully this will translate to something cool in the new PA (It probably won't though)
maybe the one-eyed is trying to dump psykers on the afterburners for a super special ritual that totally wont backfire and make things better/worse(depending on POV)?
maybe an anti-astronomicon, something that allows daemons more time/power in the material plane?
We actually already know his plan, AND how it will backfire. He's trying to kickstart the psychic awakening, with said psykers being under his control. What he isn't aware of is that Tzeentch is planning to use that psychic power to enter the physical world, which would basically warp all of reality as much as he wants it to.
Wait, how and why do we know this?
Not least because obviously that isn't going to happen, because then the setting goes boom.
From the new Mephiston book. He learns all this in that book, and helps prevent a daemon prince from kickstarting it. But not the plan overall.
xeen wrote: This came out yesterday. While it is just a story, I think it is interesting that Magnus is bring psykers to him and hopefully this will translate to something cool in the new PA (It probably won't though)
maybe the one-eyed is trying to dump psykers on the afterburners for a super special ritual that totally wont backfire and make things better/worse(depending on POV)?
maybe an anti-astronomicon, something that allows daemons more time/power in the material plane?
We actually already know his plan, AND how it will backfire. He's trying to kickstart the psychic awakening, with said psykers being under his control. What he isn't aware of is that Tzeentch is planning to use that psychic power to enter the physical world, which would basically warp all of reality as much as he wants it to.
That sounds incredibly stupid both from a writing and lore perspective. Psychic Awakening continues to disappoint which is impressive in itself considering how low my expectations got after Phoenix Rising.
pm713 wrote: That sounds incredibly stupid both from a writing and lore perspective.
This accusation gets levelled at every new release, before it's even available. Yet no one ever explains why.
Because knowing how a campaign ends before it technically even starts, leads to questions and people generally losing hype about it. Why pickup this book for the lore and info etc when you already know what happens at the start, middle and end (even if all the middling detail and padding is missing).
It is good that the books tie into each other, but, the release schedule should coincide with each other, not be offset.
It also defeats the point of "play your own campaign alongside to determine the outcome" style that GW often goes for - the whole "forge your own narrative" idea.
pm713 wrote: That sounds incredibly stupid both from a writing and lore perspective.
This accusation gets levelled at every new release, before it's even available. Yet no one ever explains why.
Because knowing how a campaign ends before it technically even starts, leads to questions and people generally losing hype about it. .
And thats why the horus heresy books started to loose popularity already after book 50 and compelled GW to do a quick wrap up with a couple of dozen books. .
It also defeats the point of "play your own campaign alongside to determine the outcome" style that GW often goes for - the whole "forge your own narrative" idea.
Well that was dead the moment GW opted to pamper the "give us storyline" rather than original idea of setting
Has anyone actually heard any rumours about what some of the rules are for the next PA book? 6 days til the full reveal and i've just noticed that we've seen nothing beyond the DA character rumour and the short story.
Weren't there rumors like a year ago that a traitor primarch would become a loyalist and a loyalist become a traitor?
Clearly the ritual of the damned is to sacrifice the psykers for the good of the imperium so magnus can de-demon himself and become a loyalist primarch again.He will then take the Emperor's seat on the golden throne. This will piss off Russ who will take his woofs and become demon primarch of the wulfen.
That wlil allow GW to make a 'loyalist' primarch model, an emperor model, a big werewoof model, and all is good in the world.
Kdash wrote: Has anyone actually heard any rumours about what some of the rules are for the next PA book? 6 days til the full reveal and i've just noticed that we've seen nothing beyond the DA character rumour and the short story.
Nothing direct, the only tidbit I've seen is the independent characters guys saying there was a lot more character in the new TS rules, which you can infer they have some fluff detachment rules to pick from such as the different psyker disciplines maybe.
Nothing direct, the only tidbit I've seen is the independent characters guys saying there was a lot more character in the new TS rules, which you can infer they have some fluff detachment rules to pick from such as the different psyker disciplines maybe.
I have been combing through the recent podcasts and I haven't found the part where they mention that. Do they have inside knowledge or was that a guess?
Nothing direct, the only tidbit I've seen is the independent characters guys saying there was a lot more character in the new TS rules, which you can infer they have some fluff detachment rules to pick from such as the different psyker disciplines maybe.
I have been coming through the recent podcasts and I haven't found the part where they mention that. Do they have inside knowledge or was that a guess?
They do narrative playtesting for GW, it's somewhere in episode 198 it's mentioned because they mention wishing that the necrons had a boost in CA but they kinda know what's coming out in the PA books (which kinda suggests they're all written already and tested together).
I'm at work but I'll try and find a time stamp.
1hr 15mins 29seconds:
"I know - again having some of us playtested some of this stuff and seeing whats coming - I'm very anxious for my armies to get touched, because... in particular, and we can't get into the details yet, but in particular thousand sons. There is so much character I'm going to be able to play around with and toy with and try different things, that I cannot wait it to come out."
Nvs wrote: Weren't there rumors like a year ago that a traitor primarch would become a loyalist and a loyalist become a traitor?
Clearly the ritual of the damned is to sacrifice the psykers for the good of the imperium so magnus can de-demon himself and become a loyalist primarch again.He will then take the Emperor's seat on the golden throne. This will piss off Russ who will take his woofs and become demon primarch of the wulfen.
That wlil allow GW to make a 'loyalist' primarch model, an emperor model, a big werewoof model, and all is good in the world.
/s of course.
I'm so angry that this is a thing you dreamed up and not a thing that is real...
Brometheus wrote: Yes Episode 198- 1h 15m 30s is where they talk about Thousand Sons in particular having so much to play around with and lots of character.
I kind of heard similar things about Nids before Blood of Baal came out, looots of character
I'm going to stay pessimistic till the end, so in one case I won't be too disappointed as I didn't rise my hopes
and in the other I'll be so happy of having been wrong!
Brometheus wrote: Yes Episode 198- 1h 15m 30s is where they talk about Thousand Sons in particular having so much to play around with and lots of character.
Probbaly means a whole name generating page to themselves.
Brometheus wrote: Yes Episode 198- 1h 15m 30s is where they talk about Thousand Sons in particular having so much to play around with and lots of character.
Probbaly means a whole name generating page to themselves.
Brometheus wrote: Yes Episode 198- 1h 15m 30s is where they talk about Thousand Sons in particular having so much to play around with and lots of character.
Probbaly means a whole name generating page to themselves.
I think TS having their own codex does open up interesting options for their story.
It could have them reverse the rubric selectively, or only for fresh recruits maybe (not sure in the fluff if they can replenish their manpower?)
Then they could have regular marines as a troops choice to sell more of those fancy new kits.
They could ALSO have some new options: flesh changed marines! There could be different versions that excel at different roles. Could be very interesting!
I still don't get why the dark angels are in RotD, I'm not complaining because sooner is better than later (ok maybe I'll complain a little), but there seems to be nothing tieing the Dark Angels to the story. We'll probably get some forced Magnus is working with the fallen, or another moment of cypher leading the dark angels to exactly where they need to be to save the galaxy and then "mysteriously" disappearing.
Every piece of DA lore in this edition has set them up for a major battle with a great crusade sized legion of the fallen, and this seems like... not that. It also seems too throw away to feature the lion, so my hunch is this is a nothing burger for the DA, we'll get a primaris captain (the one mentioned in white dwarf), some version of tactical doctrines, and that's about it.
*edit* one more gripe, we could have gotten a primaris Balthasar (the Captain from dark vengeance), but no, they had to kill him off screen, and now we get his replacement whom we've never heard of. Lame...
Yeah, Galactically The Rock and Prospero are in fairly close proximity to each other, kind of makes sense for it to be the Dark Angels then that get involved (same could be said for Catachan and Ryza though).
Quasistellar wrote: I think TS having their own codex does open up interesting options for their story.
It could have them reverse the rubric selectively, or only for fresh recruits maybe (not sure in the fluff if they can replenish their manpower?)
Then they could have regular marines as a troops choice to sell more of those fancy new kits.
They could ALSO have some new options: flesh changed marines! There could be different versions that excel at different roles. Could be very interesting!
rubrics dont "die", the sand in their armor just gets out and its possible to pick it all back up and put it back in the armor to "resurrect" a rubric.
Grimgold wrote: I still don't get why the dark angels are in RotD, I'm not complaining because sooner is better than later (ok maybe I'll complain a little), but there seems to be nothing tieing the Dark Angels to the story. We'll probably get some forced Magnus is working with the fallen, or another moment of cypher leading the dark angels to exactly where they need to be to save the galaxy and then "mysteriously" disappearing.
Every piece of DA lore in this edition has set them up for a major battle with a great crusade sized legion of the fallen, and this seems like... not that. It also seems too throw away to feature the lion, so my hunch is this is a nothing burger for the DA, we'll get a primaris captain (the one mentioned in white dwarf), some version of tactical doctrines, and that's about it.
*edit* one more gripe, we could have gotten a primaris Balthasar (the Captain from dark vengeance), but no, they had to kill him off screen, and now we get his replacement whom we've never heard of. Lame...
Because each book needs an antagonist/glorified NPC that's playable in order to push sales. Whilst BoB might as well have been Blood of Baal: A Blood Angels Supplement, it was advertised enough to get Tyranid players to pick up a copy as well.
Fallen aren't a truly playable army (yet), thus they needed to grab another antagonist who had a proper codex.
Brometheus wrote: Yes Episode 198- 1h 15m 30s is where they talk about Thousand Sons in particular having so much to play around with and lots of character.
Probbaly means a whole name generating page to themselves.
Sadly, I think that will be very close to the actual content for TS.
A lot of great ideas in this thread from the lore perspective, but again, I doubt that GW will deliver anything close to them... Instead, TS are presented more and more like idiotic cartoon villains.
I like a lot the idea that someone wrote before, that of Magnus trying to "trick" Tzeentch. Would be a very nice plot to develop, after Tzeentch deceived Magnus before the Heresy. Supposedly (at least in background from some years ago), Magnus was second only to the Emperor regarding his intellect and mental abilities. However in the stories about him, both in Heresy stuff and especially in the latest 40k material, he is showed almost as a moron... One occasion... ok could be nice, but again and again is dissapointing to say the least...
If it's something like stratagems to make certain units be from certain cults, it would be really neat. Give them the cult's bonus from 30k and automatically give their sorc a power from that cult's powers (don't let it be a choice, they don't need that many extra power sets).
So something like a raptora rubric unit, so they end up with a 4++ and levitation or telekine dome. Or divination so they can re-roll 1s to hit if they stand still, and foreboding or perfect timing. Or maybe precognition or misfortune.
There's a lot of potential here if that's really what the podcast was referring to.
Grimgold wrote: I still don't get why the dark angels are in RotD
Presumably because, alongside the Grey Knights, they were the primary Imperial forces fighting against the Thousand Sons in Wrath of Magnus while the Space Wolves were getting mullered.
Brometheus wrote: Yes Episode 198- 1h 15m 30s is where they talk about Thousand Sons in particular having so much to play around with and lots of character.
Probbaly means a whole name generating page to themselves.
Sadly, I think that will be very close to the actual content for TS.
...
Doubtful. I'd expect in the absolute worse case they'll get half (in terms of page count) of what the main chaos marines book got from faith and fury, with the other half of that going to grey knights. So strats, traits, relics, etc.
If I'm right about the "stratagems to become certain cults" thing I hope tzaangors can be effected. They'd really benefit from pavoni's +1 to advance/charge, compared to any actual marine units.
Grimgold wrote: I still don't get why the dark angels are in RotD
Presumably because, alongside the Grey Knights, they were the primary Imperial forces fighting against the Thousand Sons in Wrath of Magnus while the Space Wolves were getting mullered.
besides it;d be boring if GW never mixed things up and we only ever saw rivals fight. I mean... by that logic why was it the Salamanders fighting the word bearers in F&F and not the Ultramarines (hell in terms of rules presented it wouldn't have given us anything differant)
Grimgold wrote: I still don't get why the dark angels are in RotD, I'm not complaining because sooner is better than later (ok maybe I'll complain a little), but there seems to be nothing tieing the Dark Angels to the story. We'll probably get some forced Magnus is working with the fallen, or another moment of cypher leading the dark angels to exactly where they need to be to save the galaxy and then "mysteriously" disappearing.
Every piece of DA lore in this edition has set them up for a major battle with a great crusade sized legion of the fallen, and this seems like... not that. It also seems too throw away to feature the lion, so my hunch is this is a nothing burger for the DA, we'll get a primaris captain (the one mentioned in white dwarf), some version of tactical doctrines, and that's about it.
*edit* one more gripe, we could have gotten a primaris Balthasar (the Captain from dark vengeance), but no, they had to kill him off screen, and now we get his replacement whom we've never heard of. Lame...
Well there is limited story elements due to the need to cram an entire Marine supplement into the book.
Its the DA Supplement book with some other bits and pieces thrown in - best way to see the PA series. Wolves are PA4 I believe and will be similar.
Grimgold wrote: I still don't get why the dark angels are in RotD, I'm not complaining because sooner is better than later (ok maybe I'll complain a little), but there seems to be nothing tieing the Dark Angels to the story. We'll probably get some forced Magnus is working with the fallen, or another moment of cypher leading the dark angels to exactly where they need to be to save the galaxy and then "mysteriously" disappearing.
Every piece of DA lore in this edition has set them up for a major battle with a great crusade sized legion of the fallen, and this seems like... not that. It also seems too throw away to feature the lion, so my hunch is this is a nothing burger for the DA, we'll get a primaris captain (the one mentioned in white dwarf), some version of tactical doctrines, and that's about it.
*edit* one more gripe, we could have gotten a primaris Balthasar (the Captain from dark vengeance), but no, they had to kill him off screen, and now we get his replacement whom we've never heard of. Lame...
Well there is limited story elements due to the need to cram an entire Marine supplement into the book.
Its the DA Supplement book with some other bits and pieces thrown in - best way to see the PA series. Wolves are PA4 I believe and will be similar.
Gosh. DA supplement AND SW supplement as PA4? That would be ridiculously crowded for one book. Nah PA6 will be wolf supplement.
What marine supplement PA5 will be? Tau vs...umm is there much left? Deathwatch is about last marine one left. Maybe custodians instead.
Everybody seems to be 100% sure this will be a DA supplement, I definitely get where they are coming from given the precedents, but was this confirmed anywhere?
If nothing is confirmed then this could just as well be a TS supplement while loyalists get what chaos got before ...perhaps just wishful thinking...
pm713 wrote: That sounds incredibly stupid both from a writing and lore perspective.
This accusation gets levelled at every new release, before it's even available. Yet no one ever explains why.
From a writing point of view it's stupid because I already know that the plan for Tzeentch to enter reality is going to fail. There's no suspense or anything around it because it's a foregone conclusion. It's like a film trying to be suspenseful about a character being dead when the trailers have shown him alive later on.
From a lore point of view it's stupid because it's a rehashing of the same story of Magnus has a plan and gets undone by Tzeentch even though he should know better. The first time it was good, the second less so. It also seems a bit odd that huge amounts of a valuable resource are being nicked by Magnus.
Personally, I just feel Magnus should fade into the background after the disservice they did him in Siege of Fenris.
pm713 wrote: That sounds incredibly stupid both from a writing and lore perspective.
This accusation gets levelled at every new release, before it's even available. Yet no one ever explains why.
From a writing point of view it's stupid because I already know that the plan for Tzeentch to enter reality is going to fail. There's no suspense or anything around it because it's a foregone conclusion. It's like a film trying to be suspenseful about a character being dead when the trailers have shown him alive later on.
From a lore point of view it's stupid because it's a rehashing of the same story of Magnus has a plan and gets undone by Tzeentch even though he should know better. The first time it was good, the second less so. It also seems a bit odd that huge amounts of a valuable resource are being nicked by Magnus.
Personally, I just feel Magnus should fade into the background after the disservice they did him in Siege of Fenris.
you also knew Anakin Skywalker was going to become Darth Vader in the SW Prequals, did that stop you from seeing it? You know James Bond will escape that Goldberg deathtrap of doom, etc the entertaining thing is often not what happens but HOW it happens
edit: don't get me wrong I don't expect much from this book (40k story wise is at it's best when a battle is mentioned almost off hand in a codex and it's expanded upon by Black Library into a novel or 50) but there are plenty of examples of stories out there where knowing the general jist of whats happening is still sastifying.
Jidmah wrote: The video for each PA always included the symbols for the factions inside. The last one had GK, DA and TSafaik.
Not sure its certain they will all get stuff.
Sisters had their symbol on the Faith PA - but I am not aware they got anything (rules wise) in that?
and NO the boxed set does not count as it was a badly handled pre-release rather than a tie into PA.
I would think it will be a big DA supplement, some bits and pieces for TS - likely relic, strats and such like. Maybe pics for GK.
except it did Tie into PA, they featured in the battle and it was released alongside F&F it was clearly INTENDED to be tie in marketing. sadly it didn't work very well. apparently one of the more intreasting stories involving the sisters was apparently in the CE only (basicly the you had the Alpha legion awakening the psykic potential of an entire planet, the IoM fighting them off, and the sisters deciding that these people where conduits for the emperor's will and thus should be protected. the Inqusition disagreed and the sisters accepted this as opposed to fighting imperial forces. yeah we got to see what the sisters would do in a "1st war for armageddon aftermath" situation and lore indicating the actual psykic awakening.. and it was locked in the colelctors edition in a month when most sisters fans had biiig expenses :( )
Jidmah wrote: The video for each PA always included the symbols for the factions inside. The last one had GK, DA and TSafaik.
Not sure its certain they will all get stuff.
Sisters had their symbol on the Faith PA - but I am not aware they got anything (rules wise) in that?
and NO the boxed set does not count as it was a badly handled pre-release rather than a tie into PA.
I would think it will be a big DA supplement, some bits and pieces for TS - likely relic, strats and such like. Maybe pics for GK.
except it did Tie into PA, they featured in the battle and it was released alongside F&F it was clearly INTENDED to be tie in marketing. sadly it didn't work very well. apparently one of the more intreasting stories involving the sisters was apparently in the CE only (basicly the you had the Alpha legion awakening the psykic potential of an entire planet, the IoM fighting them off, and the sisters deciding that these people where conduits for the emperor's will and thus should be protected. the Inqusition disagreed and the sisters accepted this as opposed to fighting imperial forces. yeah we got to see what the sisters would do in a "1st war for armageddon aftermath" situation and lore indicating the actual psykic awakening.. and it was locked in the colelctors edition in a month when most sisters fans had biiig expenses :( )
Thanks for the info - I normally get the campaigns but this has seemed to contain so little in actual story that I gave it hard pass. And of course they never bothered to mention that story.
Was there any Church/Sisters rules content in PA? The symbol was there - IIRC it was even the spinning symbol. They did alot of marketing for Sisters (and then were shocked when people bought them) , they were in the video I guess.
Hence I don't think we can assume that all three GK< DA and Ts get stuff _ well obviosuly DA gets a new supplement in all but name but the others......
No. There was just fluff in PA book so so far PA is zero for sisters. Maybe thankfully. Having to buy codex AND PA book for rules right away would be bit rich. Of course codex being this new not even sure do sisters ever get any PA stuff.
Jidmah wrote: The video for each PA always included the symbols for the factions inside. The last one had GK, DA and TSafaik.
Not sure its certain they will all get stuff.
Sisters had their symbol on the Faith PA - but I am not aware they got anything (rules wise) in that?
and NO the boxed set does not count as it was a badly handled pre-release rather than a tie into PA.
I would think it will be a big DA supplement, some bits and pieces for TS - likely relic, strats and such like. Maybe pics for GK.
except it did Tie into PA, they featured in the battle and it was released alongside F&F it was clearly INTENDED to be tie in marketing. sadly it didn't work very well. apparently one of the more intreasting stories involving the sisters was apparently in the CE only (basicly the you had the Alpha legion awakening the psykic potential of an entire planet, the IoM fighting them off, and the sisters deciding that these people where conduits for the emperor's will and thus should be protected. the Inqusition disagreed and the sisters accepted this as opposed to fighting imperial forces. yeah we got to see what the sisters would do in a "1st war for armageddon aftermath" situation and lore indicating the actual psykic awakening.. and it was locked in the colelctors edition in a month when most sisters fans had biiig expenses :( )
Thanks for the info - I normally get the campaigns but this has seemed to contain so little in actual story that I gave it hard pass. And of course they never bothered to mention that story.
Was there any Church/Sisters rules content in PA? The symbol was there - IIRC it was even the spinning symbol. They did alot of marketing for Sisters (and then were shocked when people bought them) , they were in the video I guess.
Hence I don't think we can assume that all three GK< DA and Ts get stuff _ well obviosuly DA gets a new supplement in all but name but the others......
in the core book the sisters get some mentions and are pretty vital to the fighting against the word bearers, but yeah not really worth it. I can't help but compare these books to some of the 7th edition books, and find them lacking. But I suppose GW knows people tend to buy the sourcebooks for rules more so then the fluff. I'm the type who'd happily buy a sorucebook that's 95% fluff, (I got into table top gaming through battletech and thats the norm with Btech) but I suspect I'm in the minority and frankly GW's campaign books don't tell a good eneugh story for that anyway. oddly their world building can be solid (the marine supplements aren't perfect but they're not bad and IMHO are, fluff wise proably god sends for fans of 1st founding chapters that aren't one of the big four)
PA meanwhile has the salamanders, sisters, guard black templars, white scars, word bearers, iron warriors, and night lords all present... yet there's nothing of substance. the most intreasting thing is the apparent confirmation that apparently stealth strike cruisers are a thing now. (I'm almost hoping that the BFG relaunch is set in the era indmutius simply to give us some info on any potential new marine ship developments)
tneva82 wrote: No. There was just fluff in PA book so so far PA is zero for sisters. Maybe thankfully. Having to buy codex AND PA book for rules right away would be bit rich. Of course codex being this new not even sure do sisters ever get any PA stuff.
The original advert had their symbol and said - everyone gets something but they never defined what. It might be the full Codex and models release is what Sisters get in the New Year.
So far its: (correct me if missed anything)
* Eldar
**Craftworld Eldar : New rules + new Pheonix Lord Model, new Banshees model
** Dark Eldar: New rules and Model for Drahzar and Incubi
*Imperial
**Space Marines Lots of new rules and strats
*** Black Templars: Full Supplement
*** Blood Angels: Full Supplement + Mehophsiton Model
*Chaos
** Chaos Space Marines: new Sorcerer model and new rules, relics and strats - and NAMES!
unless eldar and D-eldar didn't get it, everyone seems to have gotten a random names table.
and yeah I agree with Tneva82 that I'm kinda glad sisters didn't get any rules in PA2 that woulda been annoying.
So far though we've got a pretty solid pattern emerging.
First of all, non-marine codices all seem to be getting "create a chapter rules" and each army gets a page of strats relics and warlord traits. (sadly for DE and CWE the relics warlord traits and strats where all Ynnari stuff, which really shouldn't count, but GW it seems disagrees)
they're also using the PA releases to update the Marine varient codices to be on par with codex Space Marines. (which suggests BAs, DAs and SWs likely won't see a new codex anytime soon)
cole1114 wrote: If I'm right about the "stratagems to become certain cults" thing I hope tzaangors can be effected. They'd really benefit from pavoni's +1 to advance/charge, compared to any actual marine units.
Where did you bring the idea such a stratagem even exists?
Or if he does, that this is what pavoni does?
Because I've seen nothing about RotD TS content even at the most unreliable sources.
tneva82 wrote: His theory/wishlist to bring cults from TS 30k rules into 40k.
It's not a crazy assumption however, it's the type of rules they seem to be using these books to roll out.
No army that has lacked subfactions has gained subfactions thus far. It's doubtful 1k sons will be the first
Whilst valid, that only encompasses BA so far who got doctrines etc and a massive range update. TS are the first non-loyalist marines army to not have sub-factions and have a PA release.
tneva82 wrote: His theory/wishlist to bring cults from TS 30k rules into 40k.
It's not a crazy assumption however, it's the type of rules they seem to be using these books to roll out.
No army that has lacked subfactions has gained subfactions thus far. It's doubtful 1k sons will be the first
Whilst valid, that only encompasses BA so far who got doctrines etc and a massive range update. TS are the first non-loyalist marines army to not have sub-factions and have a PA release.
maybe but I tend to set my expectations low, keeps me from ever being dissappointed
tneva82 wrote: His theory/wishlist to bring cults from TS 30k rules into 40k.
It's not a crazy assumption however, it's the type of rules they seem to be using these books to roll out.
No army that has lacked subfactions has gained subfactions thus far. It's doubtful 1k sons will be the first
Whilst valid, that only encompasses BA so far who got doctrines etc and a massive range update. TS are the first non-loyalist marines army to not have sub-factions and have a PA release.
maybe but I tend to set my expectations low, keeps me from ever being dissappointed
Bitch please, I have zero expectations and I still get let down on a regular basis.
Doing Sub factions for a given Marine Chapter as already sub-sub faction of either Chaos or Imperial is really getting a bit excessive.....You would have to get new traits for indivdual companies or smaller.....
I think another really big TS release would be in its own PA book - being alongside DA in their supplement book means limited space.
Given that most remaining TS indivduality is limited to their sorcerers, I think it will be Warlord Traits or Relics if anything.
pm713 wrote: That sounds incredibly stupid both from a writing and lore perspective.
This accusation gets levelled at every new release, before it's even available. Yet no one ever explains why.
From a writing point of view it's stupid because I already know that the plan for Tzeentch to enter reality is going to fail. There's no suspense or anything around it because it's a foregone conclusion. It's like a film trying to be suspenseful about a character being dead when the trailers have shown him alive later on.
From a lore point of view it's stupid because it's a rehashing of the same story of Magnus has a plan and gets undone by Tzeentch even though he should know better. The first time it was good, the second less so. It also seems a bit odd that huge amounts of a valuable resource are being nicked by Magnus.
Personally, I just feel Magnus should fade into the background after the disservice they did him in Siege of Fenris.
you also knew Anakin Skywalker was going to become Darth Vader in the SW Prequals, did that stop you from seeing it? You know James Bond will escape that Goldberg deathtrap of doom, etc the entertaining thing is often not what happens but HOW it happens
edit: don't get me wrong I don't expect much from this book (40k story wise is at it's best when a battle is mentioned almost off hand in a codex and it's expanded upon by Black Library into a novel or 50) but there are plenty of examples of stories out there where knowing the general jist of whats happening is still sastifying.
I actually didn't know that. I watched the prequels then the original trilogy.
That would be true if I was watching/reading something where I believed the HOW would be interesting. With GW I don't partly because of their track record and partly because campaign books aren't very good at story telling like that. If it was a film I'd be fine with it because it could have flashy flashy cool parts but writing can't do that.
pm713 wrote: That would be true if I was watching/reading something where I believed the HOW would be interesting. With GW I don't partly because of their track record and partly because campaign books aren't very good at story telling like that. If it was a film I'd be fine with it because it could have flashy flashy cool parts but writing can't do that.
I don't believe that it matters a whole lot whether you know the end of a story if the issue is that the writer is bad at story telling.
Mr Morden wrote: Doing Sub factions for a given Marine Chapter as already sub-sub faction of either Chaos or Imperial is really getting a bit excessive.....You would have to get new traits for indivdual companies or smaller.....
I think another really big TS release would be in its own PA book - being alongside DA in their supplement book means limited space.
Given that most remaining TS indivduality is limited to their sorcerers, I think it will be Warlord Traits or Relics if anything.
Question, where did you hear that this is the DA supplement book?
I understand that's the expectation given the precedent, but was this is any way confirmed anywhere and I'm missing something?
That would be true if I was watching/reading something where I believed the HOW would be interesting. With GW I don't partly because of their track record and partly because campaign books aren't very good at story telling like that. If it was a film I'd be fine with it because it could have flashy flashy cool parts but writing can't do that.
Mr Morden wrote: Doing Sub factions for a given Marine Chapter as already sub-sub faction of either Chaos or Imperial is really getting a bit excessive.....You would have to get new traits for indivdual companies or smaller.....
I think another really big TS release would be in its own PA book - being alongside DA in their supplement book means limited space.
Given that most remaining TS indivduality is limited to their sorcerers, I think it will be Warlord Traits or Relics if anything.
Question, where did you hear that this is the DA supplement book?
I understand that's the expectation given the precedent, but was this is any way confirmed anywhere and I'm missing something?
The announcement video for each book shows the icons of the armies that will be in the book.
I think many people are talking past each other currently.
1. We all know DA will be in the book in some form.
2. Contention is with the type of inclusion, full on codex supplement treatment like BA and BT, or more like chaos in last book.
I think it's more likely to be a full on supplement, it has to be really. As much as many are fed up with marines right now, it would be a dick move by GW to not give the DA treatment that every other chapter (barring SW who should get same next year) has not received.
Deathwatch and Grey Knights are exceptions as they are not full on chapters per se, and more than likely will just get minor additions.
I expect DA to be most of this book and I will be glad to see it. as one of the worst performing armies currently, they need help. Yes, GK do too, but that fix is far more difficult than what DA need (as the formula for their fix is already established with earlier marine books)
I'm hoping for the full supplement treatment for DA, and also good lore for TS. We all know they've set up shop in the Prospero system and that's it. It would be cool to see how that's progressing IE Expanding their power base, raiding nearby systems etc.
CSM having real-space bases of operations is super-cool and interesting to me, gives their actions a little more weight. No, they're not fleeing back to the warp this time, they actually have a little mini-empire to protect.
Nah Man Pichu wrote: I'm hoping for the full supplement treatment for DA, and also good lore for TS. We all know they've set up shop in the Prospero system and that's it. It would be cool to see how that's progressing IE Expanding their power base, raiding nearby systems etc.
CSM having real-space bases of operations is super-cool and interesting to me, gives their actions a little more weight. No, they're not fleeing back to the warp this time, they actually have a little mini-empire to protect.
I'm hoping for an enhanced legion trait for the Thousand Sons - one that also benefits non-psyker units. I'd also really like to see some kind of psychic dreadnought option. Magnus essentially created them, and if the Blood Angels can have them, why not the Thousand Sons? Perhaps rules for the Osiron Contemptor?
I'd also like to see some sort of in-game result of Magnus bringing all these psykers to Prospero.
Nah Man Pichu wrote: I'm hoping for the full supplement treatment for DA, and also good lore for TS. We all know they've set up shop in the Prospero system and that's it. It would be cool to see how that's progressing IE Expanding their power base, raiding nearby systems etc.
CSM having real-space bases of operations is super-cool and interesting to me, gives their actions a little more weight. No, they're not fleeing back to the warp this time, they actually have a little mini-empire to protect.
I'm hoping for an enhanced legion trait for the Thousand Sons - one that also benefits non-psyker units. I'd also really like to see some kind of psychic dreadnought option. Magnus essentially created them, and if the Blood Angels can have them, why not the Thousand Sons? Perhaps rules for the Osiron Contemptor?
I'd also like to see some sort of in-game result of Magnus bringing all these psykers to Prospero.
That would be dope, my only concern would be PA hasn't really touched Forgeworld models tmk, and GW is pretty clear that if there's no model, there's no rules.
Each book is accompanied by a heroic champion, which was what GW said at open day when they said 3 more books are on the way. Someone on B&C said that they heard about a Dark Angels character who is great at killing other characters so we can probably rule out TS getting a miniature of any sort.
Brometheus wrote: Each book is accompanied by a heroic champion, which was what GW said at open day when they said 3 more books are on the way. Someone on B&C said that they heard about a Dark Angels character who is great at killing other characters so we can probably rule out TS getting a miniature of any sort.
Hmmmmmm sounds like Belial. Source for that? I'm happy with any scrap.
Side note, if it *is* Belial I'd be a touch salty, Ezekial needs a new model way more than Belial does (I'm predicting no Azrael until the next full codex)
Nah Man Pichu wrote: I'm hoping for the full supplement treatment for DA, and also good lore for TS. We all know they've set up shop in the Prospero system and that's it. It would be cool to see how that's progressing IE Expanding their power base, raiding nearby systems etc.
CSM having real-space bases of operations is super-cool and interesting to me, gives their actions a little more weight. No, they're not fleeing back to the warp this time, they actually have a little mini-empire to protect.
It's definitely something that should have been given more weight, rather than these slap fights over 'super-important' single worlds that no one had ever heard about. With the sundering of the imperium by the warp rift, chaos and xenos setting up kingdoms in the 'dark half' should have been the driving narrative. Or at least the Imperiums response to that, if the imperial POV needs to be focus.
Nah Man Pichu wrote: I'm hoping for the full supplement treatment for DA, and also good lore for TS. We all know they've set up shop in the Prospero system and that's it. It would be cool to see how that's progressing IE Expanding their power base, raiding nearby systems etc.
CSM having real-space bases of operations is super-cool and interesting to me, gives their actions a little more weight. No, they're not fleeing back to the warp this time, they actually have a little mini-empire to protect.
It's definitely something that should have been given more weight, rather than these slap fights over 'super-important' single worlds that no one had ever heard about. With the sundering of the imperium by the warp rift, chaos and xenos setting up kingdoms in the 'dark half' should have been the driving narrative. Or at least the Imperiums response to that, if the imperial POV needs to be focus.
I'm definitely with you. Definitely a map nerd who loves looking at charts like "Ok these three worlds here are held by x, and if y takes that world they can then set up an assault on planet z" etc etc.
Emperor's Spears really reinforced that for Nhilus, everything's basically feudal on that side, which I love.
I actually liked the last PA book for that, I'm not a BA player but it gave a series of planets that you could build into your own narrative.
Nah Man Pichu wrote: I'm hoping for the full supplement treatment for DA, and also good lore for TS. We all know they've set up shop in the Prospero system and that's it. It would be cool to see how that's progressing IE Expanding their power base, raiding nearby systems etc.
CSM having real-space bases of operations is super-cool and interesting to me, gives their actions a little more weight. No, they're not fleeing back to the warp this time, they actually have a little mini-empire to protect.
I'm hoping for an enhanced legion trait for the Thousand Sons - one that also benefits non-psyker units. I'd also really like to see some kind of psychic dreadnought option. Magnus essentially created them, and if the Blood Angels can have them, why not the Thousand Sons? Perhaps rules for the Osiron Contemptor?
I'd also like to see some sort of in-game result of Magnus bringing all these psykers to Prospero.
They didn't bother fixing the Legion traits for anyone, so they're not gonna bother fixing Thousand Sons.
Nah Man Pichu wrote: I'm hoping for the full supplement treatment for DA, and also good lore for TS. We all know they've set up shop in the Prospero system and that's it. It would be cool to see how that's progressing IE Expanding their power base, raiding nearby systems etc.
CSM having real-space bases of operations is super-cool and interesting to me, gives their actions a little more weight. No, they're not fleeing back to the warp this time, they actually have a little mini-empire to protect.
I'm hoping for an enhanced legion trait for the Thousand Sons - one that also benefits non-psyker units. I'd also really like to see some kind of psychic dreadnought option. Magnus essentially created them, and if the Blood Angels can have them, why not the Thousand Sons? Perhaps rules for the Osiron Contemptor?
I'd also like to see some sort of in-game result of Magnus bringing all these psykers to Prospero.
They didn't bother fixing the Legion traits for anyone, so they're not gonna bother fixing Thousand Sons.
Sure they didn't rewrite every single rule interaction for CSM in a PA book, cause that definitely would have made sense!
Pages of really thematic and competitive rules for every legion, but since it wasn't their legion traits they're worthless!
"I’ve been told DA get a new primaris character who’s focused on character killing. We’ll see I guess! Shame not to get a new Azrael model"
Note he is just passing word on.
I think it's pretty clear what's going to happen,
The new characters is going to be a dark angel, Lazarus, Company Master of the 5th, the first inner circle member to cross the rubicon primaris. They talked about him in white dwarf, which was them priming the pump. It's amusing to hear that he is good at killing characters, probably has huntsman as his trait, and uses a heavenfall blade equivalent.
The DA are going to get tactical doctrine equivalents, hopefully based around the ravenwing/deathwing/greenwing. Who knows with the right rules combo maybe deathwing will be useable (probably hoping for too much there).
As for the cults GW talked about, it's obvious it's going to be things like the corpse grinder cult, you know since they just released them. You'll spend a CP to give a unit of cultist special rules, for example with the corpse grinder cult you'll probably spend a CP to give a cultist unit +1 str and +1 attack. I actually think it's kind of cool, because deathguard and thousand sons already have special versions of cultist, so this gives other CSM legions ways to customize their cultist as well.
"I’ve been told DA get a new primaris character who’s focused on character killing. We’ll see I guess! Shame not to get a new Azrael model"
Note he is just passing word on.
I think it's pretty clear what's going to happen,
The new characters is going to be a dark angel, Lazarus, Company Master of the 5th, the first inner circle member to cross the rubicon primaris. They talked about him in white dwarf, which was them priming the pump. It's amusing to hear that he is good at killing characters, probably has huntsman as his trait, and uses a heavenfall blade equivalent.
The DA are going to get tactical doctrine equivalents, hopefully based around the ravenwing/deathwing/greenwing. Who knows with the right rules combo maybe deathwing will be useable (probably hoping for too much there).
As for the cults GW talked about, it's obvious it's going to be things like the corpse grinder cult, you know since they just released them. You'll spend a CP to give a unit of cultist special rules, for example with the corpse grinder cult you'll probably spend a CP to give a cultist unit +1 str and +1 attack. I actually think it's kind of cool, because deathguard and thousand sons already have special versions of cultist, so this gives other CSM legions ways to customize their cultist as well.
Honestly I don't even mind a new unique character, and the cult idea is interesting, although it would be strange for them to give an option for vanilla CSM in a book nominally focused on TS
Honestly I don't even mind a new unique character, and the cult idea is interesting, although it would be strange for them to give an option for vanilla CSM in a book nominally focused on TS
Ritual of the damned is also about the cults that have plagued the IoM since the citrix maledictum, they would have released it in FaF but they didn't want to steal the thunder from RotD.
cole1114 wrote: If I'm right about the "stratagems to become certain cults" thing I hope tzaangors can be effected. They'd really benefit from pavoni's +1 to advance/charge, compared to any actual marine units.
Where did you bring the idea such a stratagem even exists?
Or if he does, that this is what pavoni does?
Because I've seen nothing about RotD TS content even at the most unreliable sources.
Another person mentioned it as a guess based on a podcast run by playtesters. I ran with it.
As for subfactions, it wouldn't be that. It'd be bonuses for individual units based on old 30k stuff.
Wow those year in review articles on the Community website are lame. I wish they would just dive into this PA book already, I mean the preorders are on Dec 25 right?
Personally, I think the TS are only going to get a few strats, WL traits, and Relics akin to what each legion got in Faith and Furry. The Alpha Legion Strats are pretty good so hopefully we will get something at that level.
pm713 wrote: That sounds incredibly stupid both from a writing and lore perspective.
This accusation gets levelled at every new release, before it's even available. Yet no one ever explains why.
From a writing point of view it's stupid because I already know that the plan for Tzeentch to enter reality is going to fail. There's no suspense or anything around it because it's a foregone conclusion. It's like a film trying to be suspenseful about a character being dead when the trailers have shown him alive later on.
From a lore point of view it's stupid because it's a rehashing of the same story of Magnus has a plan and gets undone by Tzeentch even though he should know better. The first time it was good, the second less so. It also seems a bit odd that huge amounts of a valuable resource are being nicked by Magnus.
Personally, I just feel Magnus should fade into the background after the disservice they did him in Siege of Fenris.
you also knew Anakin Skywalker was going to become Darth Vader in the SW Prequals, did that stop you from seeing it? You know James Bond will escape that Goldberg deathtrap of doom, etc the entertaining thing is often not what happens but HOW it happens
edit: don't get me wrong I don't expect much from this book (40k story wise is at it's best when a battle is mentioned almost off hand in a codex and it's expanded upon by Black Library into a novel or 50) but there are plenty of examples of stories out there where knowing the general jist of whats happening is still sastifying.
I actually didn't know that. I watched the prequels then the original trilogy.
That would be true if I was watching/reading something where I believed the HOW would be interesting. With GW I don't partly because of their track record and partly because campaign books aren't very good at story telling like that. If it was a film I'd be fine with it because it could have flashy flashy cool parts but writing can't do that.
Taken combined your two statements tell me you're a kid, so wipe your nose and listen to your elders when they say it's possiable to have a good story, even in fiction, where you know the ending, if the writer is good. the problem is that there's not much chance of that here. not that it's impossiable. the trick is to focus on the journey. A GOOD book, is enjoyable from Start to finish because just getting to the end is an enjoyable experiance filled with intreasting things, things learned, things experianced, a world come alive before your imagination. a Bad book is entirely reliant on "I BET YOU DIDN'T SEE THAT COMING!" shock value, such as killing off major characters etc.
xeen wrote: Wow those year in review articles on the Community website are lame. I wish they would just dive into this PA book already, I mean the preorders are on Dec 25 right?
Personally, I think the TS are only going to get a few strats, WL traits, and Relics akin to what each legion got in Faith and Furry. The Alpha Legion Strats are pretty good so hopefully we will get something at that level.
Right?! I'm with you. But no, they didn't mention pre-orders at all. They just said Full Reveal Dec 25.
"I’ve been told DA get a new primaris character who’s focused on character killing. We’ll see I guess! Shame not to get a new Azrael model"
Note he is just passing word on.
I think it's pretty clear what's going to happen,
The new characters is going to be a dark angel, Lazarus, Company Master of the 5th, the first inner circle member to cross the rubicon primaris. They talked about him in white dwarf, which was them priming the pump. It's amusing to hear that he is good at killing characters, probably has huntsman as his trait, and uses a heavenfall blade equivalent.
The DA are going to get tactical doctrine equivalents, hopefully based around the ravenwing/deathwing/greenwing. Who knows with the right rules combo maybe deathwing will be useable (probably hoping for too much there).
.
If it's going to be Lazarus, and supposedly good at killing characters, he'll need more than just a heavenfall blade and huntsman. Only way Huntsman would be good is if they gave him a plasma exterminator (potential 9 damage with weapons of dark age strat and overcharge), or some equivalent. Heck, A MC exterminator with 3 damage on overcharge, going to 4 with strat would be quite dangerous... if he can target characters.
xeen wrote: Wow those year in review articles on the Community website are lame. I wish they would just dive into this PA book already, I mean the preorders are on Dec 25 right?
Personally, I think the TS are only going to get a few strats, WL traits, and Relics akin to what each legion got in Faith and Furry. The Alpha Legion Strats are pretty good so hopefully we will get something at that level.
Right?! I'm with you. But no, they didn't mention pre-orders at all. They just said Full Reveal Dec 25.
yes, earliest possible release would be Jan 4th with a Dec 28th preorder.
Nah Man Pichu wrote: I'm hoping for the full supplement treatment for DA, and also good lore for TS. We all know they've set up shop in the Prospero system and that's it. It would be cool to see how that's progressing IE Expanding their power base, raiding nearby systems etc.
CSM having real-space bases of operations is super-cool and interesting to me, gives their actions a little more weight. No, they're not fleeing back to the warp this time, they actually have a little mini-empire to protect.
I'm hoping for an enhanced legion trait for the Thousand Sons - one that also benefits non-psyker units. I'd also really like to see some kind of psychic dreadnought option. Magnus essentially created them, and if the Blood Angels can have them, why not the Thousand Sons? Perhaps rules for the Osiron Contemptor?
I'd also like to see some sort of in-game result of Magnus bringing all these psykers to Prospero.
They didn't bother fixing the Legion traits for anyone, so they're not gonna bother fixing Thousand Sons.
Sure they didn't rewrite every single rule interaction for CSM in a PA book, cause that definitely would have made sense!
Pages of really thematic and competitive rules for every legion, but since it wasn't their legion traits they're worthless!
Did you even bother to see how much more Loyalists got? They got a generic Strat for everyone that is locked only for specific Legions. No better Dark Apostles for your World Eaters! No other Warlords for your Night Lords!
Yeah you can pretend the stuff made the Legions competitive though. It's still just going to be the same things being used.
Nah Man Pichu wrote: I'm hoping for the full supplement treatment for DA, and also good lore for TS. We all know they've set up shop in the Prospero system and that's it. It would be cool to see how that's progressing IE Expanding their power base, raiding nearby systems etc.
CSM having real-space bases of operations is super-cool and interesting to me, gives their actions a little more weight. No, they're not fleeing back to the warp this time, they actually have a little mini-empire to protect.
I'm hoping for an enhanced legion trait for the Thousand Sons - one that also benefits non-psyker units. I'd also really like to see some kind of psychic dreadnought option. Magnus essentially created them, and if the Blood Angels can have them, why not the Thousand Sons? Perhaps rules for the Osiron Contemptor?
I'd also like to see some sort of in-game result of Magnus bringing all these psykers to Prospero.
They didn't bother fixing the Legion traits for anyone, so they're not gonna bother fixing Thousand Sons.
Sure they didn't rewrite every single rule interaction for CSM in a PA book, cause that definitely would have made sense!
Pages of really thematic and competitive rules for every legion, but since it wasn't their legion traits they're worthless!
Did you even bother to see how much more Loyalists got? They got a generic Strat for everyone that is locked only for specific Legions. No better Dark Apostles for your World Eaters! No other Warlords for your Night Lords!
Yeah you can pretend the stuff made the Legions competitive though. It's still just going to be the same things being used.
If you're looking for supplement-tier support for multiple mini-factions in the PA books you're going to be disappointed.
I'm aware that SM got more love. I'm also aware SM is GW's most popular and most profitable faction, so I'm not surprised or angry when they get more support.
I chose to not play the poster-boy faction, and so I'm just happy when Chaos gets a bit of decent love. Which they did. Their strats and relics are fun, flavorful, and improve some less-used units.
Why waste energy asking for parity that will never be had?
pm713 wrote: That sounds incredibly stupid both from a writing and lore perspective.
This accusation gets levelled at every new release, before it's even available. Yet no one ever explains why.
From a writing point of view it's stupid because I already know that the plan for Tzeentch to enter reality is going to fail. There's no suspense or anything around it because it's a foregone conclusion. It's like a film trying to be suspenseful about a character being dead when the trailers have shown him alive later on.
From a lore point of view it's stupid because it's a rehashing of the same story of Magnus has a plan and gets undone by Tzeentch even though he should know better. The first time it was good, the second less so. It also seems a bit odd that huge amounts of a valuable resource are being nicked by Magnus.
Personally, I just feel Magnus should fade into the background after the disservice they did him in Siege of Fenris.
you also knew Anakin Skywalker was going to become Darth Vader in the SW Prequals, did that stop you from seeing it? You know James Bond will escape that Goldberg deathtrap of doom, etc the entertaining thing is often not what happens but HOW it happens
edit: don't get me wrong I don't expect much from this book (40k story wise is at it's best when a battle is mentioned almost off hand in a codex and it's expanded upon by Black Library into a novel or 50) but there are plenty of examples of stories out there where knowing the general jist of whats happening is still sastifying.
I actually didn't know that. I watched the prequels then the original trilogy.
That would be true if I was watching/reading something where I believed the HOW would be interesting. With GW I don't partly because of their track record and partly because campaign books aren't very good at story telling like that. If it was a film I'd be fine with it because it could have flashy flashy cool parts but writing can't do that.
"Taken combined your two statements tell me you're a kid, so wipe your nose and listen to your elders when they say it's possiable to have a good story, even in fiction, where you know the ending, if the writer is good. the problem is that there's not much chance of that here. not that it's impossiable. the trick is to focus on the journey. A GOOD book, is enjoyable from Start to finish because just getting to the end is an enjoyable experiance filled with intreasting things, things learned, things experianced, a world come alive before your imagination. a Bad book is entirely reliant on "I BET YOU DIDN'T SEE THAT COMING!" shock value, such as killing off major characters etc."
God, I love the talking down at somebody and telling them they're a kid and then typing out a rant filled with spelling errors, wild and crazy capitalization and punctuation. It's a beautiful thing. Bonus points for upholding the star wars prequels and the James Bond films where they started relying on crazy traps and gizmos as masterful storytelling.
40k as a setting is crippled right now by the twofold need to continuously up the stakes while simultaneously never ever being allowed to make space marines look bad. Right now, the story is literally "Everything is bad, everything is so terrible and dire, oh the entire universe has been rent in twain, the grimness is so grim the darkness is so dark enjoy all these stories where the good guys win
every.
single.
battle."
It's the exact opposite of the problem that TLJ had, where the narrative tension was established by the heroes losing so badly and so frequently that they looked like utter buffoons and suspension of disbelief that they could ever turn things around was strained to the absolute breaking point, in 40k every antagonist has failed so hard and so badly you can't take them seriously. Except I guess for the villainous factions who just...never appear in fiction like the Dark Eldar. GW busted out the biggest baddest dudes they had to try and escalate things and 50 foot tall daemon primarch Magnus has already had his ass handed to him mano a mano by Guilliman who's still a double-stuf space marine.
The only imperial character GW was OK with losing to any antagonist was Abbadon beating Space Winston Churchill (and even then they had to make sure Creed got in a couple good shots with his trusty las pistols!)
I had something typed out but really it's off topic so nevermind. Let's just assume I totally verbally destroyed your argument and brought you around to my way of thinking
I had something typed out but really it's off topic so nevermind. Let's just assume I totally verbally destroyed your argument and brought you around to my way of thinking
Either you did or you didn't. This here is saying you understand it's irrational to just accept it as it is. Y'all need to start trying to speak with your wallets but instead you just keep buying into this crap.
I had something typed out but really it's off topic so nevermind. Let's just assume I totally verbally destroyed your argument and brought you around to my way of thinking
Either you did or you didn't. This here is saying you understand it's irrational to just accept it as it is. Y'all need to start trying to speak with your wallets but instead you just keep buying into this crap.
Oh sorry, I didn't realize "This isn't the thread for that discussion" actually means "You're right".
Honestly I don't even mind a new unique character, and the cult idea is interesting, although it would be strange for them to give an option for vanilla CSM in a book nominally focused on TS
Ritual of the damned is also about the cults that have plagued the IoM since the citrix maledictum, they would have released it in FaF but they didn't want to steal the thunder from RotD.
They did it with the huge pile of extra rules for generic Marines in the BT supplement.
pm713 wrote: That sounds incredibly stupid both from a writing and lore perspective.
This accusation gets levelled at every new release, before it's even available. Yet no one ever explains why.
From a writing point of view it's stupid because I already know that the plan for Tzeentch to enter reality is going to fail. There's no suspense or anything around it because it's a foregone conclusion. It's like a film trying to be suspenseful about a character being dead when the trailers have shown him alive later on.
From a lore point of view it's stupid because it's a rehashing of the same story of Magnus has a plan and gets undone by Tzeentch even though he should know better. The first time it was good, the second less so. It also seems a bit odd that huge amounts of a valuable resource are being nicked by Magnus.
Personally, I just feel Magnus should fade into the background after the disservice they did him in Siege of Fenris.
you also knew Anakin Skywalker was going to become Darth Vader in the SW Prequals, did that stop you from seeing it? You know James Bond will escape that Goldberg deathtrap of doom, etc the entertaining thing is often not what happens but HOW it happens
edit: don't get me wrong I don't expect much from this book (40k story wise is at it's best when a battle is mentioned almost off hand in a codex and it's expanded upon by Black Library into a novel or 50) but there are plenty of examples of stories out there where knowing the general jist of whats happening is still sastifying.
I actually didn't know that. I watched the prequels then the original trilogy.
That would be true if I was watching/reading something where I believed the HOW would be interesting. With GW I don't partly because of their track record and partly because campaign books aren't very good at story telling like that. If it was a film I'd be fine with it because it could have flashy flashy cool parts but writing can't do that.
"Taken combined your two statements tell me you're a kid, so wipe your nose and listen to your elders when they say it's possiable to have a good story, even in fiction, where you know the ending, if the writer is good. the problem is that there's not much chance of that here. not that it's impossiable. the trick is to focus on the journey. A GOOD book, is enjoyable from Start to finish because just getting to the end is an enjoyable experiance filled with intreasting things, things learned, things experianced, a world come alive before your imagination. a Bad book is entirely reliant on "I BET YOU DIDN'T SEE THAT COMING!" shock value, such as killing off major characters etc."
God, I love the talking down at somebody and telling them they're a kid and then typing out a rant filled with spelling errors, wild and crazy capitalization and punctuation. It's a beautiful thing. Bonus points for upholding the star wars prequels and the James Bond films where they started relying on crazy traps and gizmos as masterful storytelling.
40k as a setting is crippled right now by the twofold need to continuously up the stakes while simultaneously never ever being allowed to make space marines look bad. Right now, the story is literally "Everything is bad, everything is so terrible and dire, oh the entire universe has been rent in twain, the grimness is so grim the darkness is so dark enjoy all these stories where the good guys win
every.
single.
battle."
It's the exact opposite of the problem that TLJ had, where the narrative tension was established by the heroes losing so badly and so frequently that they looked like utter buffoons and suspension of disbelief that they could ever turn things around was strained to the absolute breaking point, in 40k every antagonist has failed so hard and so badly you can't take them seriously. Except I guess for the villainous factions who just...never appear in fiction like the Dark Eldar. GW busted out the biggest baddest dudes they had to try and escalate things and 50 foot tall daemon primarch Magnus has already had his ass handed to him mano a mano by Guilliman who's still a double-stuf space marine.
The only imperial character GW was OK with losing to any antagonist was Abbadon beating Space Winston Churchill (and even then they had to make sure Creed got in a couple good shots with his trusty las pistols!)
Abaddon beat Calgar in a dual, granted he also lost to a slaanish prince etc, "CALGAR GOT THE gak KICKED OUT OF HIM... BUT HE DID IT WHILE CUNNINGLY WINNING" seems to be the new status quo for stories involving him.
as for my youngin comment I apologize, I made that post when it was early (or late) and I was operating on little sleep and clear forgot a smily face eomijii at the bit about listening to eldars
The tau win quite a bit, it usually goes back and forth but in the end the tau deal more damage than they receive.
The thousand sons (and Tdaemons) won pretty big in Wrath of Magnus, causing massive damage at fenris and bringing the planet of the sorcerers out of the eye for a new staging ground for further assault. Sure big M lost the solo fight to big G, but the bigger picture the TS are on a roll.
The necron cause massive casualties to the imperium on every encounter, while suffering very little actual losses.
Etc, etc.
The imperium isn't winning, it's just losing rather slowly as it's big enough to contain it's losses and rebuild it's forces. They win individuals fights, but losing every war. Even with the new Primaris reinforcement deus ex, they barely hold on, with major worlds like baal and fenris on the brink.
I’m curious about when the AdMech will show up in one of these books. Maybe fighting the Tau? If not then they’ll most likely be in a later book fighting Necrons I assume.
I had something typed out but really it's off topic so nevermind. Let's just assume I totally verbally destroyed your argument and brought you around to my way of thinking
Either you did or you didn't. This here is saying you understand it's irrational to just accept it as it is. Y'all need to start trying to speak with your wallets but instead you just keep buying into this crap.
Oh sorry, I didn't realize "This isn't the thread for that discussion" actually means "You're right".
Tiberius501 wrote: I’m curious about when the AdMech will show up in one of these books. Maybe fighting the Tau? If not then they’ll most likely be in a later book fighting Necrons I assume.
Admech are more likely to get a 2.0 codex than appearance in a PA book. They have 3+ kits that need included, with hints at at least 2 more (Manipulus, Dunerider, Archeopter kits, and potentially Dadelosis and his Servitor) (hints at a heavy infantry and rumor engine of a potential skitarii character)
xeen wrote: Wow those year in review articles on the Community website are lame. I wish they would just dive into this PA book already, I mean the preorders are on Dec 25 right?
Personally, I think the TS are only going to get a few strats, WL traits, and Relics akin to what each legion got in Faith and Furry. The Alpha Legion Strats are pretty good so hopefully we will get something at that level.
Right?! I'm with you. But no, they didn't mention pre-orders at all. They just said Full Reveal Dec 25.
Indeed preorders won't be on 25th. It's wednesdayx
Tiberius501 wrote: I’m curious about when the AdMech will show up in one of these books. Maybe fighting the Tau? If not then they’ll most likely be in a later book fighting Necrons I assume.
Admech are more likely to get a 2.0 codex than appearance in a PA book. They have 3+ kits that need included, with hints at at least 2 more (Manipulus, Dunerider, Archeopter kits, and potentially Dadelosis and his Servitor) (hints at a heavy infantry and rumor engine of a potential skitarii character)
Tiberius501 wrote: I’m curious about when the AdMech will show up in one of these books. Maybe fighting the Tau? If not then they’ll most likely be in a later book fighting Necrons I assume.
Admech are more likely to get a 2.0 codex than appearance in a PA book. They have 3+ kits that need included, with hints at at least 2 more (Manipulus, Dunerider, Archeopter kits, and potentially Dadelosis and his Servitor) (hints at a heavy infantry and rumor engine of a potential skitarii character)
blood angels got like 15 new datasheets in PA3
Yeah I wouldn’t be surprised if these datasheets came in with the PA. GW said every faction is appearing in a PA book in some shape or form so I’m definitely expecting that over a new book any time soon.
Tiberius501 wrote: I’m curious about when the AdMech will show up in one of these books. Maybe fighting the Tau? If not then they’ll most likely be in a later book fighting Necrons I assume.
Probably necrons, because I think tau might be occupied in the damocles gulf fighting marines. This is supported by the fact that necrons other regular opponents all seem to have other dance partners (Black templars v CSM, tyranids v Blood angels, eldar V themselves). Of course the last couple of books have to be pretty grab bag to fit all of the remaining factions, so it might be cawls magical trip around the galaxy stealing technology.
Tiberius501 wrote: I’m curious about when the AdMech will show up in one of these books. Maybe fighting the Tau? If not then they’ll most likely be in a later book fighting Necrons I assume.
Admech are more likely to get a 2.0 codex than appearance in a PA book. They have 3+ kits that need included, with hints at at least 2 more (Manipulus, Dunerider, Archeopter kits, and potentially Dadelosis and his Servitor) (hints at a heavy infantry and rumor engine of a potential skitarii character)
blood angels got like 15 new datasheets in PA3
Yeah I wouldn’t be surprised if these datasheets came in with the PA. GW said every faction is appearing in a PA book in some shape or form so I’m definitely expecting that over a new book any time soon.
Why do you think anyone other than Marines is going to get this level of support?
We have seen the new Ad Mech flyer but that might be it (its a great looking model IMO) - or it could be just artwork...
BrianDavion wrote: Taken combined your two statements tell me you're a kid, so wipe your nose and listen to your elders
Man it's really hard to hold my tongue when i read idiotic like this.
Grown men don't need to brag online what big strong manly men they are. Honest question: How insecure are you?
If you're an adult then you're definitely on the spectrum. You misspelled like half a dozen words in a paragraph of insults and snide remarks.
Tiberius501 wrote: I’m curious about when the AdMech will show up in one of these books. Maybe fighting the Tau? If not then they’ll most likely be in a later book fighting Necrons I assume.
Admech are more likely to get a 2.0 codex than appearance in a PA book. They have 3+ kits that need included, with hints at at least 2 more (Manipulus, Dunerider, Archeopter kits, and potentially Dadelosis and his Servitor) (hints at a heavy infantry and rumor engine of a potential skitarii character)
Yeah, I'd be very surprised to not see the Archaeopter come out with a 2.0 admech codex.
They also have chapter tactics from the same era as space marines (sorry, CSM players...) and they're in a weird rules situation where now they have exactly 1 model (the dunerider) that does not benefit from chapter tactics. Because they had the old "infantry and walker" chapter tactic wording, but previously all their stuff was walkers so effectively everything benefitted from their chapter tactics.
2.0 codex, a couple new models, redesigned CT's and stratagems, and a reworking of Canticles to boost up the little used ones and make them a "purity bonus" ala combat doctrines.
Tiberius501 wrote: I’m curious about when the AdMech will show up in one of these books. Maybe fighting the Tau? If not then they’ll most likely be in a later book fighting Necrons I assume.
Admech are more likely to get a 2.0 codex than appearance in a PA book. They have 3+ kits that need included, with hints at at least 2 more (Manipulus, Dunerider, Archeopter kits, and potentially Dadelosis and his Servitor) (hints at a heavy infantry and rumor engine of a potential skitarii character)
Yeah, I'd be very surprised to not see the Archaeopter come out with a 2.0 admech codex.
They also have chapter tactics from the same era as space marines (sorry, CSM players...) and they're in a weird rules situation where now they have exactly 1 model (the dunerider) that does not benefit from chapter tactics. Because they had the old "infantry and walker" chapter tactic wording, but previously all their stuff was walkers so effectively everything benefitted from their chapter tactics.
2.0 codex, a couple new models, redesigned CT's and stratagems, and a reworking of Canticles to boost up the little used ones and make them a "purity bonus" ala combat doctrines.
I don't know, the wait for the next codex after Sisters could be quite long, I really wouldn't be surprised to see all the datasheets from releases AdMech have had since their codex came out to be consolidated in PA, with the Archeopter being the only new one. As for the Forge World traits, I wouldn't expect any change on their wording in PA, just a the build-your-own options of blandness.
And given the level of effort being put into these books for none loyalist marines, that'll probably cover everything they get.
We have seen the new Ad Mech flyer but that might be it (its a great looking model IMO) - or it could be just artwork...
Eh we have seen the model already. It's not artwork. Don't go hyperbole and say no other than marines never receive any new models.
I meant it might not be in the "Ad Mech PA" - its not a character so less likely I think -unless there is named pilot version. An Alpha Skitarri would be a great bonus though....
Agree the cool Ornithopter model is coming out but it might not be linked or at least not obviously (see the "Faith" PA and the cocked up Sisters pre-release)
I'm hoping PA gives Thousand Sons Tzeentch Arcanites, Gaunt Summoners and Ogroid Thaumaturges. I don't think those have 40k rules yet and that would really help fill out their force org.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: I'm hoping PA gives Thousand Sons Tzeentch Arcanites, Gaunt Summoners and Ogroid Thaumaturges. I don't think those have 40k rules yet and that would really help fill out their force org.
Whilst I like this, I kinda wish they'd get more... thousand sons and less sigmar to pad the range out.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: I'm hoping PA gives Thousand Sons Tzeentch Arcanites, Gaunt Summoners and Ogroid Thaumaturges. I don't think those have 40k rules yet and that would really help fill out their force org.
Whilst I like this, I kinda wish they'd get more... thousand sons and less sigmar to pad the range out.
I concur. I'd love to see some non-Rubric marines. Is there anything stopping the Sons from creating new non-psyker marines? They can induct new sorcerers, but would a new marine just immediately suffer the Rubric?
How would they make non-Psychic Marines? Psychic powers are baked into their Geneseed. And TS Geneseed is going to be in short supply with the vast majority of the Legion being dust.
dan2026 wrote: I'm hoping Daemons are going to get something out of the Psychic Awakening.
They have kinda been left out in the cold a bit with everyone else getting new rules, warlord traits, formations, relics etc.
Yeah I'm with you here. As for the plaguebearer spam + Thousand Sons supreme cmd, I really don't care what they think. +1pt per model in Chapter Approved was gentle lolll. Thousand Sons will only get abused more after PA: IV which is why I am hoping they get some really nice pure-TS bonuses.
I don't think we'll see any demons here.. This is on Sortiarius/Prospero... There are Rubricae and Sorcerers.. Not mortal TS tactical marines.. Why are people so interested in getting rid of the Rubricae? They need to be made better, not obsolete...
dan2026 wrote: I'm hoping Daemons are going to get something out of the Psychic Awakening.
They have kinda been left out in the cold a bit with everyone else getting new rules, warlord traits, formations, relics etc.
Yeah I'm with you here. As for the plaguebearer spam + Thousand Sons supreme cmd, I really don't care what they think. +1pt per model in Chapter Approved was gentle lolll. Thousand Sons will only get abused more after PA: IV which is why I am hoping they get some really nice pure-TS bonuses.
I don't think we'll see any demons here.. This is on Sortiarius/Prospero... There are Rubricae and Sorcerers.. Not mortal TS tactical marines.. Why are people so interested in getting rid of the Rubricae? They need to be made better, not obsolete...
I'm wouldn't want to get rid of Rubricae. I'd want to be able to field mono Thousand Sons without a bunch of demons to fill in the cracks. But then I'm not a huge fan of the demon sculps.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: I'm hoping PA gives Thousand Sons Tzeentch Arcanites, Gaunt Summoners and Ogroid Thaumaturges. I don't think those have 40k rules yet and that would really help fill out their force org.
Whilst I like this, I kinda wish they'd get more... thousand sons and less sigmar to pad the range out.
I concur. I'd love to see some non-Rubric marines. Is there anything stopping the Sons from creating new non-psyker marines? They can induct new sorcerers, but would a new marine just immediately suffer the Rubric?
Or something that shows the Thousand Sons fighting in a slower, methodical, legionnary style compared to loyalist or standard chaos marines.
Everyone seems to want Rubric Havocs, Rubric bikers, Rubric assault marines when they ask for more rubric stuff. Personally, I'd rather see more magical/corrupted versions of old legion equipment in the way we got the Soulreaper rotor cannons or whole squads equipped with flamers (sadly, those are only cool in concept right now because throughout 8th they've been total ass in practice, as have all flamers.)
So we could have Rubric havocs and that might be neat, certainly wouldn't mind a way to rely on rubric units for my anti-tank fighting without having to do a totally custom vindicator or predator without having to start with the gaudy and awful chaos pred/vindy. But it'd be cool to see them bring back a corrupted version of a Volkite Culverin rather than just the usual lascannon/missile launcher/heavy bolter. A Rubric artillery unit would be a perfect fit IMO, with Rapier/Quad-launcher/Graviton Cannon as the basis for whatever the sorcerors have cooked up.
Basically, I think they should explore bringing some of the elements they introduced into 30k back into 40k through the Thousand Sons, who among the chaos legions are probably the most likely to be fighting exactly as they were in the heresy, there not being a whole bunch of technological progress among the dusty lads.
Being able to use more of the HH era units for the various Marine Chapters (loyal and heretic) as well as Ad Mech and Sisters of Silence would be good.
Would also mean less design and production dedicated to the same old chosen sub factions and likely less goofy models.
I think the entire issue with Thousand Sons is that the spells are supposed to provide two things, and they do not:
1. A high risk/high reward toolkit for filling in gaps (AT)
2. A way to insert the trickery of Tzeentch into the game.
For more on #2, see what Disciples of Tzeentch do in Age of Sigmar....
Access to a Venomcrawler or more demon engines is not the answer and is neither fluffy nor appropriate. The army as it is needs adjustments.
What the heck are you guys wanting to do with a unit of Rubric Marines with 4 soulreaper cannons? How much 40k do you actually play with Rubricae where you can say that is a good option over Rubricae with just bolters... Wishes like that make me wonder what kind of lists you play against
I hate how Thousand Sons are effectively the only Tzeentch CSM faction. Tzeentch is cool but Thousand Sons are boring and super un-tzeentchy. I want a faction of Tzeentch marines who embrace the change, mutations and madness, not some unchanging dust robots.
Crimson wrote: I hate hoe Thousand Sons are effectively the only Tzeentch CSM faction. Tzeentch is cool but Thousand Sons are boring and super un-tzeentchy. I want a faction of Tzeentch marines who embrace the change, mutations and madness, not some unchanging dust robots.
Yeah if only there was some kind of chaos space marine faction you could dedicate to any of the four gods, giving you access to mutant units like spawn, possessed, crazy mutant daemon engines and the like.
If only!
We need another marine codex to solve this injustice!
Crimson wrote: I hate how Thousand Sons are effectively the only Tzeentch CSM faction. Tzeentch is cool but Thousand Sons are boring and super un-tzeentchy. I want a faction of Tzeentch marines who embrace the change, mutations and madness, not some unchanging dust robots.
Yeah if only there was some kind of chaos space marine faction you could dedicate to any of the four gods, giving you access to mutant units like spawn, possessed, crazy mutant daemon engines and the like.
If only!
We need another marine codex to solve this injustice!
There doesn't need to be a separate codex, but dedication to gods does precious little outside the cult units. And most of the dedicated Tzeentch stuff is in the Thousand Sons book. And Rubric marines are not the same than other cult troops. Non-DG Nurgle marines can still be plague marines, non-WE Khorne marines can be berserkers, non-EC Slaanesh marines can be noise marines. But non-TS Tzeentch marines would not be rubrics. I really wish they would do more with mutation and change in CSM line in general.
Crimson wrote: I hate how Thousand Sons are effectively the only Tzeentch CSM faction. Tzeentch is cool but Thousand Sons are boring and super un-tzeentchy. I want a faction of Tzeentch marines who embrace the change, mutations and madness, not some unchanging dust robots.
Yeah if only there was some kind of chaos space marine faction you could dedicate to any of the four gods, giving you access to mutant units like spawn, possessed, crazy mutant daemon engines and the like.
If only!
We need another marine codex to solve this injustice!
There doesn't need to be a separate codex, but dedication to gods does precious little outside the cult units. And most of the dedicated Tzeentch stuff is in the Thousand Sons book. And Rubric marines are not the same than other cult troops. Non-DG Nurgle marines can still be plague marines, non-WE Khorne marines can be berserkers, non-EC Slaanesh marines can be noise marines. But non-TS Tzeentch marines would not be rubrics. I really wish they would do more with mutation and change in CSM line in general.
I think failing repeatedly at doing decent mutations in the various possessed/chaos spawn kits has largely put them off doing mutations.
They tend to look hysterically goofy rather than grim and nasty.
Crimson wrote: I hate how Thousand Sons are effectively the only Tzeentch CSM faction. Tzeentch is cool but Thousand Sons are boring and super un-tzeentchy. I want a faction of Tzeentch marines who embrace the change, mutations and madness, not some unchanging dust robots.
Yeah if only there was some kind of chaos space marine faction you could dedicate to any of the four gods, giving you access to mutant units like spawn, possessed, crazy mutant daemon engines and the like.
If only!
We need another marine codex to solve this injustice!
There doesn't need to be a separate codex, but dedication to gods does precious little outside the cult units. And most of the dedicated Tzeentch stuff is in the Thousand Sons book. And Rubric marines are not the same than other cult troops. Non-DG Nurgle marines can still be plague marines, non-WE Khorne marines can be berserkers, non-EC Slaanesh marines can be noise marines. But non-TS Tzeentch marines would not be rubrics. I really wish they would do more with mutation and change in CSM line in general.
You know you can use Rubric Marines in, say, a Scourged army, right? Or even Black Legion? Or, really, anything that isn't Khorne/Nurgle/Slaanesh?
Crimson wrote: I hate how Thousand Sons are effectively the only Tzeentch CSM faction. Tzeentch is cool but Thousand Sons are boring and super un-tzeentchy. I want a faction of Tzeentch marines who embrace the change, mutations and madness, not some unchanging dust robots.
Yeah if only there was some kind of chaos space marine faction you could dedicate to any of the four gods, giving you access to mutant units like spawn, possessed, crazy mutant daemon engines and the like.
If only!
We need another marine codex to solve this injustice!
There doesn't need to be a separate codex, but dedication to gods does precious little outside the cult units. And most of the dedicated Tzeentch stuff is in the Thousand Sons book. And Rubric marines are not the same than other cult troops. Non-DG Nurgle marines can still be plague marines, non-WE Khorne marines can be berserkers, non-EC Slaanesh marines can be noise marines. But non-TS Tzeentch marines would not be rubrics. I really wish they would do more with mutation and change in CSM line in general.
You mean like Tzaangors? Those duders who are explicitly natives of the planet of Sorcerors and who in the lore for 40k don't make sense joining other Tzeentch-affiliated warbands?
Because the only other thing that's not explicitly rubrics that's unique to the Tsons book is the mutalith beast.
I think my reaction to this is just frustration with the embarrassment of riches that any marine faction has when wanting to create custom rules. Let's say I want to create a Tzeentch-focused, non Tsons Chaos Space Marine army.
There's rules for the non-legion warbands, including one that's explicitly Tzeentch-focused in the Scourged. I get a special banner power, two relics, a stratagem, a tzeentch-specific psychic power as well as a whole discipline centering around the daemonkin units with the Master of Possession. I've got Possessed, Spawn, Obliterators, Mutilators, all the daemon engines, greater possessed, and warp talons if I want explicitly mutated units. I can even take those guys in a special detachment to make my army even more mutation-centric.
Now let's say I want to represent a somewhat different Drukhari Kabal, maybe one focused on sadistic melee killing rather than gunsy shoot times.
Well, I can use the custom kabal traits to give myself bonuses with melee weapons. That doesn't give my models melee weapons though, they have to use the trusty ol' S user Ap- D1 close combat weapon. And I don't get to have a relic or a stratagem to go with that. I could take some corsairs, which have some melee weapon options, but they actually break battleforged benefits entirely if you have any of them in your army and are officially illegal otherwise since you can't take mixed aeldari detachments anymore.
I think failing repeatedly at doing decent mutations in the various possessed/chaos spawn kits has largely put them off doing mutations.
They tend to look hysterically goofy rather than grim and nasty.
I think Gal Vorbak are pretty awesome. I'd like to see something like this in 40K.
dan2026 wrote: I'm hoping Daemons are going to get something out of the Psychic Awakening.
They have kinda been left out in the cold a bit with everyone else getting new rules, warlord traits, formations, relics etc.
They're on the list to but atm they almost need a total overhaul imo.
I agree. I think the Daemon codex needs rewriting from scrach.
Greater Daemons in particular need a complete rules redo.
They keep lowering, lowering, lowering their points, but that doesnt fix them.
Their rules are fundementally kinda crappy in 40k. They work for Sigmar but not 40k where everyone has a pocket lascanon.
They also have chapter tactics from the same era as space marines (sorry, CSM players...) and they're in a weird rules situation where now they have exactly 1 model (the dunerider) that does not benefit from chapter tactics. Because they had the old "infantry and walker" chapter tactic wording, but previously all their stuff was walkers so effectively everything benefitted from their chapter tactics.
2.0 codex, a couple new models, redesigned CT's and stratagems, and a reworking of Canticles to boost up the little used ones and make them a "purity bonus" ala combat doctrines.
our forgeworld dogmas apply to all our models from GW except daedalosus, only the secutariis from FW dont benefit from them.
You know you can use Rubric Marines in, say, a Scourged army, right? Or even Black Legion? Or, really, anything that isn't Khorne/Nurgle/Slaanesh?
That's not the point though. Rubric Marines are specific thing, not something non-TS Tzeetch worshipping CSM would ever become.
This is not true. Theres many non-TS rubrics. Be them space marines that were made rubric by TS sorcererrs for a Chaos Lord in exchange of something, or other chaos sorcererrs that have learned to do lesser versions of Ahriman's Rubric.
You know you can use Rubric Marines in, say, a Scourged army, right? Or even Black Legion? Or, really, anything that isn't Khorne/Nurgle/Slaanesh?
That's not the point though. Rubric Marines are specific thing, not something non-TS Tzeetch worshipping CSM would ever become.
This is not true. Theres many non-TS rubrics. Be them space marines that were made rubric by TS sorcererrs for a Chaos Lord in exchange of something, or other chaos sorcererrs that have learned to do lesser versions of Ahriman's Rubric.
They are not Chaos Marines dedicated to and blessed by Tzeetch. Rubric was specifically created to avoid the gifts of Tzeetch There are no real Tzeetch dedicated cult marines.
I think failing repeatedly at doing decent mutations in the various possessed/chaos spawn kits has largely put them off doing mutations.
They tend to look hysterically goofy rather than grim and nasty.
I think Gal Vorbak are pretty awesome. I'd like to see something like this in 40K.
Yeah, they could call them something like, better possessed? No, I got it,... Greater Possessed!
We have seen the new Ad Mech flyer but that might be it (its a great looking model IMO) - or it could be just artwork...
Eh we have seen the model already. It's not artwork. Don't go hyperbole and say no other than marines never receive any new models.
I meant it might not be in the "Ad Mech PA" - its not a character so less likely I think -unless there is named pilot version. An Alpha Skitarri would be a great bonus though....
Agree the cool Ornithopter model is coming out but it might not be linked or at least not obviously (see the "Faith" PA and the cocked up Sisters pre-release)
"or it could just be art work" tends to make one conclude you're assuming there's no mini. that said I think it's more likely we'll see the admech stuff in the book. Sisters didn't have a codex. expecting a codex update before the codex update is... obviously a differant animal.
You know you can use Rubric Marines in, say, a Scourged army, right? Or even Black Legion? Or, really, anything that isn't Khorne/Nurgle/Slaanesh?
That's not the point though. Rubric Marines are specific thing, not something non-TS Tzeetch worshipping CSM would ever become.
This is not true. Theres many non-TS rubrics. Be them space marines that were made rubric by TS sorcererrs for a Chaos Lord in exchange of something, or other chaos sorcererrs that have learned to do lesser versions of Ahriman's Rubric.
They are not Chaos Marines dedicated to and blessed by Tzeetch. Rubric was specifically created to avoid the gifts of Tzeetch There are no real Tzeetch dedicated cult marines.
Pfff. No, just no.
Please stop making statements showing little to no knowledge about the things you are stating. You know that what you are referring to are more akin to possesed marines, so Word Bearers or <<insert random warband name>> possesed would represent that much better. In models, you could use the posessed kit, that has plenty of mutations and weirdness...
Thousand Sons IS the legion that became enthralled to Tzeentch, they are his most favoured servants (if such thing is possible). Tzeentch is the chaos god of Sorcery, treason, deceit, plans, plots, schemes and change. You know, mutations and undesired protrusions all over the body it's only an aspect of it, not necessarly the most important. Its more like a "side effect", I think.
Besides that, rubric marines are only one aspect of the Thousand Sons. The other major aspect, somewhat undeveloped both in miniatures and rules format, are the sorcerers. Those could have and in fact, in the miniatures have strange mutations like extra arms, beaks, etc. There are a lot of little snipets of background that could be explored and further expanded to include in the Thousand Sons, like the new recruits with psychic abilities that are inducted into the TS and ultimately become sorcerers, or the sorcerer dreadnoughts... like those, I think that there are many things that could be developed and translated in units and miniatures.
Knowing current GW, they will never do that, of course.
At least I hope there will not be more fantasy/sigmar things smashed on the Thousand sons as: "Wow look new units that totally were always part of the TS from like ever and are totally awesome using these unrelated and awfully ugly existing models!!11!!".
Why would anyone willing embrace Tzeentch? The other chaos gods are about giving in to Fury/Despair/Desire, all you have to do is let go and you'll be set on the path to damnation.
I always thought of Tzeentch as the odd man out, he wants you to struggle, fight him, and in the process assure your own damnation. That's why he offers you the tools to defy him, to seemingly avoid your fate while actually ensuring it. The thousand sons aren't his worshippers (at least not without an unhealthy dose of stockholm syndrome) they are his prisoners, and they dwell in a cage they made.
Which is why I find the 1k sons seem perfectly on note for Tzeentch, they are his but still they struggle. They try to avoid his Gifts by using the very same sorcery he gave them. Tzeentch is a spider tending a web, and he doesn't want spiders, or people who worship spiders, he wants flys.
Please stop making statements showing little to no knowledge about the things you are stating. You know that what you are referring to are more akin to possesed marines, so Word Bearers or <<insert random warband name>> possesed would represent that much better. In models, you could use the posessed kit, that has plenty of mutations and weirdness...
Possessed kit is old and ugly and the have gak rules.
And I understand the fluff just fine. The rubrics are fundamentally differnt from other cult marines. A new Tzeentch worshipping CSM probably doesn't aspire to be a rubric marine, whereas cult marines of other gods are valid 'advancement paths' to worshipper of those gods.
Furthermore, the rubric was originally developed to thwart mutations. Seem pretty rude towards Tzeentch to me!
Warpspy wrote: Besides that, rubric marines are only one aspect of the Thousand Sons. The other major aspect, somewhat undeveloped both in miniatures and rules format, are the sorcerers. Those could have and in fact, in the miniatures have strange mutations like extra arms, beaks, etc. There are a lot of little snipets of background that could be explored and further expanded to include in the Thousand Sons, like the new recruits with psychic abilities that are inducted into the TS and ultimately become sorcerers, or the sorcerer dreadnoughts... like those, I think that there are many things that could be developed and translated in units and miniatures.
Well, yes, this is the sort of thing I'd like to see more and they could also be used to represent non-TS Tzeentch marines.
Not Online!!! wrote: Recently a csm list topplaced with a big possesed blob, crimson
Good to know! I wish they would update the models. I was exited when they first previewed the greater possessed, but then it turned out that it was just two monopose character models.
Not Online!!! wrote: Recently a csm list topplaced with a big possesed blob, crimson
Good to know! I wish they would update the models. I was exited when they first previewed the greater possessed, but then it turned out that it was just two monopose character models.
I frankly recommend leftover csm parts and then cable aswell as moss to create firey bodyparts.
That is how i'd do them, gakton off work though and i allready sit on a pile of too much unpainted csm/r&h /unfinished terrain
Grimgold wrote: Why would anyone willing embrace Tzeentch? The other chaos gods are about giving in to Fury/Despair/Desire, all you have to do is let go and you'll be set on the path to damnation.
I always thought of Tzeentch as the odd man out, he wants you to struggle, fight him, and in the process assure your own damnation. That's why he offers you the tools to defy him, to seemingly avoid your fate while actually ensuring it. The thousand sons aren't his worshippers (at least not without an unhealthy dose of stockholm syndrome) they are his prisoners, and they dwell in a cage they made..
Fluffwise, that isn't what Tzeentch offers. It isn't about struggling or fighting him. Its about the power of hope, change and reform.
Ambition, essentially, which is an easy sell to many people.
The TS are a bad example, because they didn't know they'd already been traded away by the real prize (Magnus), though Ahriman made a unexpected case of perhaps having greater worth than his progenitor. Since he had the ambition and drive to acquire knowledge and power, while Magnus mostly sat in his tower and brooded about how terrible he is as at bargaining.
[Aside: Nurgle is more resilience/acceptance than despair, which is why N &T are opposites. Nurgle would have mortals accept their putrefaction, Tzeentch would rather see them try to change it)
).
like this.
