cpugeek13 wrote: Does anyone know what the standard number of models for a 30K army is? I’ve heard that it is more than 40k, and mostly consists of tactical marines. I stopped playing 40k a few years ago, but 30k has (cautiously) piqued my interest. It seems like the larger troop boxes would be inline with larger armies overall.
Eh it can depend entirely on what sort of list you want to run. It's very easy to get massive footslogger lists in 30k which can run near 100 infantry in a 2k list. But then if you craft a somewhat sensible list, then you're likely to find you'll have a number of infantry to a similar sized 40k game, as a lot of the points end up being sunk in expensive tanks/flyers/primarchs.
I imagine it would depend somewhat on the local meta somewhat too. In my area at any rate, unless playing ZM which normally runs 750-1250 points, games tend to start around the 2-2.5k points mark and average out at about 3-3.5k points. Then on top of that if you're playing to a specific Rite of War that will likely influence what you take. Pride of the Legion lists tend to run 20-30 terminators or may 40ish power armoured vets. Armour lists will be lower troops, maybe 20ish, but more tanks. One local guy like to cram in 6 fire raptors and feth all else into a list. (shockingly, people don't like playing him too much. )
The EC being big on mk6 makes sense. They would love better sensors and lighter weight. Also alot of the og emperors children art (the classic 4 chaos marines) were in mk 6, could also be the base they use for 40k (lucius I believe is in partial mk6, with a mk4 backpack, and in 40k he adds faces and an anvilus backpack).
Eidolon also worked close with death guard, could see them splitting loot that he takes mk6 and morty the older marks.
Might point to
Death guard=mk2/3
TS= mk4
W= mk 5
EC=mk6
For the base of their 40k designs when WE and EC come out
The problem is that you can't do whatever you want with no consequences?
The problem from my POV is that I don't like play interruptions and extra crap to remember that isn't innate to the unit's rules. If your angle is that not liking certain design choices in games makes me some kind of child we're gonna have trouble reaching common ground I fear
Billicus wrote: Ugh, these reactions, advanced reactions, special reactions, overreactions are just Stratagems by another name aren't they...
They can be shut down by pinning a unit. So it's possible to deal with them.
That's not the problem, here.
The problem is that you can't do whatever you want with no consequences?
If that's what you get from that, it says more about you than about anything else.
As for me, I prefer rules that work the same for everyone. Reactions, IGOUGO or whatever else is nice and dandy, as long as every kid gets to play with all the toys.
Billicus wrote: Ugh, these reactions, advanced reactions, special reactions, overreactions are just Stratagems by another name aren't they...
They can be shut down by pinning a unit. So it's possible to deal with them.
That's not the problem, here.
The problem is that you can't do whatever you want with no consequences?
If that's what you get from that, it says more about you than about anything else.
As for me, I prefer rules that work the same for everyone. Reactions, IGOUGO or whatever else is nice and dandy, as long as every kid gets to play with all the toys.
Unlucky me, nobody gets to use the same. Which is the part about "all the kids playing with all the rules".
Nobody but IFs getting to launch preemptive charges on the opponent's movement phase is not exactly that, for example. Because... reasons.
And that's not even taking into account that not all legions get to be special enough to get bespoke reactions... Iron Warriors say Hi.
You do realise these aren't full rules previews right? Or did you think that Dark Angels just don't get a Legion trait because it wasn't in their preview? Each Legion getting its own reaction is just like each Legion getting its own unique wargear, rules, and units.
Unlucky me, nobody gets to use the same. Which is the part about "all the kids playing with all the rules".
Nobody but IFs getting to launch preemptive charges on the opponent's movement phase is not exactly that, for example. Because... reasons.
And that's not even taking into account that not all legions get to be special enough to get bespoke reactions... Iron Warriors say Hi.
You do realise these aren't full rules previews right? Or did you think that Dark Angels just don't get a Legion trait because it wasn't in their preview? Each Legion getting its own reaction is just like each Legion getting its own unique wargear, rules, and units.
Do you realize that what I'm saying is that I don't like a proliferation of special reactions outside of the general rules? Also, that's how stratagems started, too, and look how it's going.
Albertorius wrote: Do you realize that what I'm saying is that I don't like a proliferation of special reactions outside of the general rules? Also, that's how stratagems started, too, and look how it's going.
Careful, you might slip on that slope you've made.
The problem is that you can't do whatever you want with no consequences?
The problem from my POV is that I don't like play interruptions and extra crap to remember that isn't innate to the unit's rules. If your angle is that not liking certain design choices in games makes me some kind of child we're gonna have trouble reaching common ground I fear
Perhaps you should have said that, rather than making up 'special reactions' and 'over reactions' (ironic, that) and dragging Strats in.
Not liking interrupts and a lot of special rules is relatable, but what you posted (and what other folks globbed onto) wasn't.
If the box indeed turns out to be 225€ (which I still doubt tbh), I would probably end up buying the box after all, and selling the terminators.
Any more than that however and I'm sticking to buying 20 beakies and a Spartan individually. Rest of the box isnt really must-have for me. The plastic contemptor only interests me if it can be kitbashed with the resin one, and there's no proof yet that this can be done easily. I want to keep the aquila-adorned resin chest piece, but if the plastics offer more poseability than the resin limbs, I'd be happy to mix the two.
tneva82 wrote: Well lucky you. Everybody gets to use reactions.
Unlucky me, nobody gets to use the same. Which is the part about "all the kids playing with all the rules".
Nobody but IFs getting to launch preemptive charges on the opponent's movement phase is not exactly that, for example. Because... reasons.
And that's not even taking into account that not all legions get to be special enough to get bespoke reactions... Iron Warriors say Hi.
Ah so on 40k side marines should have resurection protocols, sisters should obviously be able to use volcano cannons etc?
Angron should obviously be usable by all legions. And necrons. And tyranids.
Sure, man, that's exactly what I said, sure.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bobug wrote: Every legion has 6 base reactions that are generic to all forces (2 different ones per phase) and 1 unique reaction that can be used once per battle.
True... for now. Stratagems were also few and far between at the start. Or Necromunda tactics cards.
But we all know that GW is always restrained and never go for the easy bucks, amirite?
So when it comes to HH, how much do people accept armour conversions? Like, mixing and matching armour and/or converting it into something different?
I've heard the link drawn between HH players and historical gamers, and I know historical gamers often hate it if you make historically implausible forces.
Specifically, one thing I'm thinking of doing is keeping the beakie armour but removing the actual beakie heads and replacing it with something custom like this...
And then swapping out the studded shoulder pad for something like a Mk3 shoulder pad.
Would I get shouted out of the gaming club for that?
Yeah and then you throw the shouter into the sun.
In all seriousness, HH peeps are much more likely to look at conversions with praise and warm fuzziness than scream you down because you put the wrong honour marking on your Tactical Marine. Even the ones who rage about Primaris then use Primaris to make conversions.
Specifically, one thing I'm thinking of doing is keeping the beakie armour but removing the actual beakie heads and replacing it with something custom like this...
And then swapping out the studded shoulder pad for something like a Mk3 shoulder pad.
But, but, the beakie helm and the studded shoulder are the best parts... (T⌓T)
In any case, the armours can be customised even in the lore and often are, so it would be silly for anyone to give you hard time for doing so.
Though given some of the attitudes I've seen here, not totally inconceivable...
Bobug wrote: Every legion has 6 base reactions that are generic to all forces (2 different ones per phase) and 1 unique reaction that can be used once per battle.
True... for now. Stratagems were also few and far between at the start.
Just to point out, this is not correct. The 8th ed rule book had a very limited selection of stratagems, but the first codex coming in after a month or so already had the pages of stratagems and set the tone for 40k ever since. Unless you for some strange reason believe that codices are not an integral part of the rules setup for 40k and the rule book plus indices are the true game, drowning players in stratagems has been there from the start.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: So when it comes to HH, how much do people accept armour conversions? Like, mixing and matching armour and/or converting it into something different?
I've heard the link drawn between HH players and historical gamers, and I know historical gamers often hate it if you make historically implausible forces.
I like to think that even the most engaged players know to put a "pseudo" in front of their feelings about the Horus Heresy as a historical game and not forget the long history in GW games of encouraging players to make their models their own through conversion.
But I'm old and grew up with that, so what do I know what kids do these days?
The problem is that you can't do whatever you want with no consequences?
The problem from my POV is that I don't like play interruptions and extra crap to remember that isn't innate to the unit's rules. If your angle is that not liking certain design choices in games makes me some kind of child we're gonna have trouble reaching common ground I fear
Perhaps you should have said that, rather than making up 'special reactions' and 'over reactions' (ironic, that) and dragging Strats in.
Not liking interrupts and a lot of special rules is relatable, but what you posted (and what other folks globbed onto) wasn't.
Sorry, I was just trying to inject a little humour and hyperbole into my moan.
Unlucky me, nobody gets to use the same. Which is the part about "all the kids playing with all the rules".
Nobody but IFs getting to launch preemptive charges on the opponent's movement phase is not exactly that, for example. Because... reasons.
And that's not even taking into account that not all legions get to be special enough to get bespoke reactions... Iron Warriors say Hi.
You do realise these aren't full rules previews right? Or did you think that Dark Angels just don't get a Legion trait because it wasn't in their preview? Each Legion getting its own reaction is just like each Legion getting its own unique wargear, rules, and units.
Do you realize that what I'm saying is that I don't like a proliferation of special reactions outside of the general rules? Also, that's how stratagems started, too, and look how it's going.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: So when it comes to HH, how much do people accept armour conversions? Like, mixing and matching armour and/or converting it into something different?
Just say it's Heresy armor.
If I get the box set, I'm going to be doing that for a majority of the infantry. Some Sons of Horus heads from Forgeworld, and other third party heads.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: So when it comes to HH, how much do people accept armour conversions? Like, mixing and matching armour and/or converting it into something different?
I've heard the link drawn between HH players and historical gamers, and I know historical gamers often hate it if you make historically implausible forces.
Specifically, one thing I'm thinking of doing is keeping the beakie armour but removing the actual beakie heads and replacing it with something custom like this...
And then swapping out the studded shoulder pad for something like a Mk3 shoulder pad.
Would I get shouted out of the gaming club for that?
given we know every l;egion has their own forges I think folks would be fine. Hell.. use those heads on Iron warriors mk VI and people'd proably think it's awesome
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It’s a helluva price if it’s true. Seems it’s from a reliable source who Valrak says is yet to be wrong.
I mean, it’s still a big old chunk of cash. Of course it is. But I’m going to stick my neck out and say for anyone looking to get into Horus Heresy, it’s pretty damned close to Ojectively Good Value.
Hell. Two of those and a judicious selection of the weapon packs, and you’ve a really solid (if admittedly unvaried) core force to pad out with tastier tidbits.
More so if online discounters can get you 20-25% off.
by GW standards its not bad, still feels a little padded with the big tank. 2 rhino's and a 2nd dreadnought would have been better
although it'll be a festival of plenty on ebay for the big tank
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It’s a helluva price if it’s true. Seems it’s from a reliable source who Valrak says is yet to be wrong.
I mean, it’s still a big old chunk of cash. Of course it is. But I’m going to stick my neck out and say for anyone looking to get into Horus Heresy, it’s pretty damned close to Ojectively Good Value.
Hell. Two of those and a judicious selection of the weapon packs, and you’ve a really solid (if admittedly unvaried) core force to pad out with tastier tidbits.
More so if online discounters can get you 20-25% off.
by GW standards its not bad, still feels a little padded with the big tank. 2 rhino's and a 2nd dreadnought would have been better
although it'll be a festival of plenty on ebay for the big tank
it'll depend on how good the tank is on table top I suppose. we'll have to see if HH 2.0 manages to make land raiders decent.
whilst I haven't played 40k in a while, up-gunned heavy transports like this and the Land Raider feel like traps in that they cost a lot of points, then the contents are usually another big chunk of points and the tank itself becomes a bullet magnet
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It’s a helluva price if it’s true. Seems it’s from a reliable source who Valrak says is yet to be wrong.
I mean, it’s still a big old chunk of cash. Of course it is. But I’m going to stick my neck out and say for anyone looking to get into Horus Heresy, it’s pretty damned close to Ojectively Good Value.
Hell. Two of those and a judicious selection of the weapon packs, and you’ve a really solid (if admittedly unvaried) core force to pad out with tastier tidbits.
More so if online discounters can get you 20-25% off.
by GW standards its not bad, still feels a little padded with the big tank. 2 rhino's and a 2nd dreadnought would have been better
although it'll be a festival of plenty on ebay for the big tank
it'll depend on how good the tank is on table top I suppose. we'll have to see if HH 2.0 manages to make land raiders decent.
1.5 had good land raiders as they were cheap, 180pts with no twin heavy bolter and no assault ramp, it did its job and for 20pts more it got another lascannon (might be misrembering the costs), 180pts made it semi spamable which is why my Iron Wing was built around a squadron of 3 with command tank.
if the leaks are correct its now 220 standard with a twin heavy bolter, 5HP and 12 transport capacity, but each additional land raider is 205, thats seems pretty good to me and best of all, its now an assault vehicle built in so worth the extra cost up front and overall points drop for the unit, looking forward to seeing if this stays the same on drop
So, based on the tie in book it looks like the box set isn't the Siege of Terra exactly, but the Siege of Cthonia which is apparently 12-14.M31 which puts it around Late-Heresy according to the timeline:
That's what it looked like on the cover. I can clearly make out the imperial fist icon and it looked to me like the other symbol was Egyptian based. I forgot about the fact that the Black Legion was originally the Sons of Horus.
??Thats just a stylized eye symbol used by Horus and co, the "eye of Horus" if you will - which I don't think is particularly egyptian styled aesthetically, though the name is definitely a nod in that direction.
But also clearly not Thousand Sons there, Alpha Legion would have been a better guess. At this point in timeline the Thousand Sons are still red bois.
Also, I think so much for the "Heta-Gladius" rumors, since it seems the new box has no such name.
Crimson wrote: In any case, the armours can be customised even in the lore and often are, so it would be silly for anyone to give you hard time for doing so. Though given some of the attitudes I've seen here, not totally inconceivable...
Are there any specific armour configurations/combinations that we know don't work? I know Mk.VI helmets don't work with Mk.VIII torsos, but that's not really relevant to the Horus Heresy.
Are there any other marks of Power Armour that are more 'set' or don't take well to mix'n'matching?
ClockworkZion wrote: So, based on the tie in book it looks like the box set isn't the Siege of Terra exactly, but the Siege of Cthonia which is apparently 12-14.M31 which puts it around Late-Heresy according to the timeline:
That would explain why all the Marines are product placement for the new boxed set have Mk.VI armour. Good to see they thought about that at least.
Crimson wrote: In any case, the armours can be customised even in the lore and often are, so it would be silly for anyone to give you hard time for doing so.
Though given some of the attitudes I've seen here, not totally inconceivable...
Are there any specific armour configurations/combinations that we know don't work? I know Mk.VI helmets don't work with Mk.VIII torsos, but that's not really relevant to the Horus Heresy.
Are there any other marks of Power Armour that are more 'set' or don't take well to mix'n'matching?
ClockworkZion wrote: So, based on the tie in book it looks like the box set isn't the Siege of Terra exactly, but the Siege of Cthonia which is apparently 12-14.M31 which puts it around Late-Heresy according to the timeline:
That would explain why all the Marines are product placement for the new boxed set have Mk.VI armour. Good to see they thought about that at least.
I mean it's not like MkVI hasn't been on the cover before:
Crimson wrote: In any case, the armours can be customised even in the lore and often are, so it would be silly for anyone to give you hard time for doing so.
Though given some of the attitudes I've seen here, not totally inconceivable...
Are there any specific armour configurations/combinations that we know don't work? I know Mk.VI helmets don't work with Mk.VIII torsos, but that's not really relevant to the Horus Heresy.
Are there any other marks of Power Armour that are more 'set' or don't take well to mix'n'matching?
Only 6 and 7 are plug-and-play with each other by design. The rest can be made to work together but require rebuilding the parts to match up, with varying degrees of difficulty. Matching a Mk2 part to a Mk3 suit should be quite easy, but Mk2 to Mk4 requires more work.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Are there any specific armour configurations/combinations that we know don't work? I know Mk.VI helmets don't work with Mk.VIII torsos, but that's not really relevant to the Horus Heresy.
Are there any other marks of Power Armour that are more 'set' or don't take well to mix'n'matching?
If we're talking about models and not lore, I can say that most are interchangeable, except the mark III heads can be quite large and sometimes do not fit well within the gorget of Mk. VIII, much like beakies. Also the Mk III legs and torsos can look a bit odd when paired with other marks, as they are substantially bulkier.
Crimson wrote: In any case, the armours can be customised even in the lore and often are, so it would be silly for anyone to give you hard time for doing so.
Though given some of the attitudes I've seen here, not totally inconceivable...
Are there any specific armour configurations/combinations that we know don't work? I know Mk.VI helmets don't work with Mk.VIII torsos, but that's not really relevant to the Horus Heresy.
Are there any other marks of Power Armour that are more 'set' or don't take well to mix'n'matching?
Only 6 and 7 are plug-and-play with each other by design. The rest can be made to work together but require rebuilding the parts to match up, with varying degrees of difficulty. Matching a Mk2 part to a Mk3 suit should be quite easy, but Mk2 to Mk4 requires more work.
Mark IV should be the most problematic, since its a significant change and technological refit very different from the previous armors (and mkV).
Mark V should be fairly flexible since its basically a field refit by techmarines and already uses existing parts, including the crappier power cables. (I also really want a MkV kit)
reminds me how "concentrated" are armor types. is a force that uses mixed mk VI IV and III marks of armor (like 1 squad mk vi, 1 squad mk 3 etc) something that was seen, or did most legions employ armor universally across companies etc?
BrianDavion wrote: reminds me how "concentrated" are armor types. is a force that uses mixed mk VI IV and III marks of armor (like 1 squad mk vi, 1 squad mk 3 etc) something that was seen, or did most legions employ armor universally across companies etc?
Generally speaking Legions would favor marks that paired well to their fighting style, but at the same time if the Mechanicum sends you a shipment of something else you aren't exactly going to turn it down either because armor would need replacing, new recruits need equipping, ect.
Officially no formation would be 100% anything (even squads could see some mixing) but we're also looking at a tiny sliver of a massive legion so don't let it stop you from doing all of a single mark if you want.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It’s a helluva price if it’s true. Seems it’s from a reliable source who Valrak says is yet to be wrong.
I mean, it’s still a big old chunk of cash. Of course it is. But I’m going to stick my neck out and say for anyone looking to get into Horus Heresy, it’s pretty damned close to Ojectively Good Value.
Hell. Two of those and a judicious selection of the weapon packs, and you’ve a really solid (if admittedly unvaried) core force to pad out with tastier tidbits.
More so if online discounters can get you 20-25% off.
by GW standards its not bad, still feels a little padded with the big tank. 2 rhino's and a 2nd dreadnought would have been better
although it'll be a festival of plenty on ebay for the big tank
it'll depend on how good the tank is on table top I suppose. we'll have to see if HH 2.0 manages to make land raiders decent.
It’s a Spartan, not a Land Raider. I think Spartans have always been pretty good in 30k.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It’s a helluva price if it’s true. Seems it’s from a reliable source who Valrak says is yet to be wrong.
I mean, it’s still a big old chunk of cash. Of course it is. But I’m going to stick my neck out and say for anyone looking to get into Horus Heresy, it’s pretty damned close to Ojectively Good Value.
Hell. Two of those and a judicious selection of the weapon packs, and you’ve a really solid (if admittedly unvaried) core force to pad out with tastier tidbits.
More so if online discounters can get you 20-25% off.
by GW standards its not bad, still feels a little padded with the big tank. 2 rhino's and a 2nd dreadnought would have been better
although it'll be a festival of plenty on ebay for the big tank
it'll depend on how good the tank is on table top I suppose. we'll have to see if HH 2.0 manages to make land raiders decent.
It’s a Spartan, not a Land Raider. I think Spartans have always been pretty good in 30k.
well I said land raiders as more the class of heavily armored transports
Honestly mixing armour looks cool, and can break up the sameness of the squads. When I was putting together my Deathwatch army - long before they ever got a Codex, mind you - I went out of my way to source Marine helmets from all sorts of places to add lots of variety to each squad.
brushcommando wrote: If we're talking about models and not lore, I can say that most are interchangeable, except the mark III heads can be quite large and sometimes do not fit well within the gorget of Mk. VIII, much like beakies. Also the Mk III legs and torsos can look a bit odd when paired with other marks, as they are substantially bulkier.
I was talking fluff more than miniatures, but thanks for the note on the Mk.III heads. I'll keep that in mind.
Specifically, one thing I'm thinking of doing is keeping the beakie armour but removing the actual beakie heads and replacing it with something custom like this...
And then swapping out the studded shoulder pad for something like a Mk3 shoulder pad.
But, but, the beakie helm and the studded shoulder are the best parts... (T⌓T)
In any case, the armours can be customised even in the lore and often are, so it would be silly for anyone to give you hard time for doing so.
Though given some of the attitudes I've seen here, not totally inconceivable...
Thanks for the comments from everyone, so it seems making some custom bits and mixing armour marks won't run me afoul of any insane HH fans.
I just hear the comments about HH fans being a bit like historical fans, and as a historical fan myself I'd scrunch my nose up if someone decided to make a custom Panzer IV turret because they didn't like the look of the actual one, or swap late war equipment on to early war models, etc etc. I'm a rivet counter when it comes to historics, but a dreamer when it comes to everything else, lol.
There are HH rivet counters. Would be gatekeepers who talk about analogies to historical wargaming. The kind of obnoxious types who say HH is “40K for grownups”. All that stuff about correct armour for certain legions is entirely in their own imaginations though and those people are best avoided.
GW have repeatedly said that all marks from II to VI were in use to some degree throughout the Heresy and you can use whatever you like.
Every single Heresy fan I’ve ever come across has been a genuinely great person and, if there is a distinction to be made between the typical Heresy player and the typical 40K player, it’s that the Heresy guys are more likely to be into narrative gaming and less competitive (in my experience).
No One Important wrote: Only 6 and 7 are plug-and-play with each other by design. The rest can be made to work together but require rebuilding the parts to match up, with varying degrees of difficulty. Matching a Mk2 part to a Mk3 suit should be quite easy, but Mk2 to Mk4 requires more work.
nope...4 to 7 are "plug and play".
H.B.M.C. wrote: Are there any specific armour configurations/combinations that we know don't work?
Are there any other marks of Power Armour that are more 'set' or don't take well to mix'n'matching?
Based on the Armour Artikel from WD #469;
Group A - based on 2
2+3
Group B - based on 4
4+5+6+7
Armours from each group are compatible with each other without issues. When you want to mix armours from Group A and Group B the Techmarines need some improvisations and have limitations.
the problem with the historical comparison (and sane rational people understand this) is the heresy is a work of fiction, that hasn't been EXHUASTIVLY documented.
I can, if I'm of a mind go out and find the EXACT order of battle for a given Military unit on April 17th 1943, this may be difficult in some cases (Soviet records may be tricky to get, and german records may have been destroyed during the fall of Berlin etc) but in theory that info's out there.
it is available the same way as you have the order of battle for a lot of historical battles available
most historical battles are simply covered by A VS B with the amount of soldiers in total as a bonus
this is a reason why for example the American Civil war as a popular setting even outside the US, because there are very detailed documentations available in English (and why Napoleonic wars focus on Waterloo and Spain, not just because GB won, but information are available in English, and there is more English literature available for Waterloo than 1806-1815 combined)
also for the Heresy, there are some battles with a lot of details available, while for others you just have a timeframe and which factions were there
which is enough to re-create the "historical" setting
it is available the same way as you have the order of battle for a lot of historical battles available
most historical battles are simply covered by A VS B with the amount of soldiers in total as a bonus
this is a reason why for example the American Civil war as a popular setting even outside the US, because there are very detailed documentations available in English (and why Napoleonic wars focus on Waterloo and Spain, not just because GB won, but information are available in English, and there is more English literature available for Waterloo than 1806-1815 combined)
also for the Heresy, there are some battles with a lot of details available, while for others you just have a timeframe and which factions were there
which is enough to re-create the "historical" setting
Wrong! there are numerous battles in the heresy WITHOUT records. or whose records amount to "word bearers fought ultramarines here, ultramarines won" Maybe you'll get a commander name and unit designation. but there's no info beyond that.
you're certainly not going to find that suddenly there's an ENTIRELY NEW TYPE OF TANK that we never heard of until now that made up a large amount of ww2 armor forces.
Wrong! there are numerous battles in the heresy WITHOUT records. or whose records amount to "word bearers fought ultramarines here, ultramarines won" Maybe you'll get a commander name and unit designation. but there's no info beyond that.
So the very same information you get for 99% of battles in history, making every historical wargame a fictional game unless it covers that 1% were more information is available
BrianDavion wrote: you're certainly not going to find that suddenly there's an ENTIRELY NEW TYPE OF TANK that we never heard of until now that made up a large amount of ww2 armor forces.
In 2009 we found an entirely new class of chariot from the Chinese warring states period and that's four times younger than the HH in relation to its own "present".
Wrong! there are numerous battles in the heresy WITHOUT records. or whose records amount to "word bearers fought ultramarines here, ultramarines won" Maybe you'll get a commander name and unit designation. but there's no info beyond that.
So the very same information you get for 99% of battles in history, making every historical wargame a fictional game unless it covers that 1% were more information is available
Risible post.
I do love that in the latest WHC post they stated there’s no such thing as incorrect armour marks for a Legion. Well played, GW. Well played.
Well, it appears the techniques used are different across presenters. Not as strong as the previous two by Peaches (if that's his handle?) but I do find a lot of the Warhammer teams painters presentations a bit odd.
No One Important wrote: Only 6 and 7 are plug-and-play with each other by design. The rest can be made to work together but require rebuilding the parts to match up, with varying degrees of difficulty. Matching a Mk2 part to a Mk3 suit should be quite easy, but Mk2 to Mk4 requires more work.
nope...4 to 7 are "plug and play".
Provably wrong. The dual technology circuits were first introduced in Mk6 armor.
Well, it appears the techniques used are different across presenters. Not as strong as the previous two by Peaches (if that's his handle?) but I do find a lot of the Warhammer teams painters presentations a bit odd.
I like that one more than the previous ones they've done.
An interesting outcome of watching the awful GWHH painting tutorials is I've started to get recommendations from lesser known youtubers for some interesting SM painting techniques.
No One Important wrote: Only 6 and 7 are plug-and-play with each other by design. The rest can be made to work together but require rebuilding the parts to match up, with varying degrees of difficulty. Matching a Mk2 part to a Mk3 suit should be quite easy, but Mk2 to Mk4 requires more work.
nope...4 to 7 are "plug and play".
Provably wrong. The dual technology circuits were first introduced in Mk6 armor.
It is canon by GW, see WD #469., so it's right.
Production Type Mk5, Mk6 and Mk7 are based on the Mk4 and are all compatible with each other.
The "Production Type" Mk5 is based on early Prototypes of the Mk4 and the Mk6. Also every mix of Armour is theoretical a "non-Production Type" Mk5.
No One Important wrote: Only 6 and 7 are plug-and-play with each other by design. The rest can be made to work together but require rebuilding the parts to match up, with varying degrees of difficulty. Matching a Mk2 part to a Mk3 suit should be quite easy, but Mk2 to Mk4 requires more work.
nope...4 to 7 are "plug and play".
Provably wrong. The dual technology circuits were first introduced in Mk6 armor.
The article you're referencing glosses over details that other articles have gone into more detail on
It is canon by GW, see WD #469., so it's right.
The article you're referencing blatantly glosses over certain details multiple other references have gone further in depth on. It makes no mention of the dual technology circuits and only says that these armor groupings can "in general" be combined "without issue." It does not say without any modification at all.
JFC, what does it matter? "The techmarine reversed the polarity of the neutron flow, so now it works fine." It is all made up nonsense anyway, you can just plug any gaps with more made up nonsense.
People should feel free to build their models in the way they themselves think looks the best.
Well, it appears the techniques used are different across presenters. Not as strong as the previous two by Peaches (if that's his handle?) but I do find a lot of the Warhammer teams painters presentations a bit odd.
How much will cost the Mark 2 box set? Im eyeing to buy the actual 10 man-squad still present on the web, but I don't know if the HH kit will be cheaper
Tell you what, in terms of a painting tutorial that'll give really good results without doing anything excessively complicated or time-consuming, I think you're gonna be pretty hard-pressed to beat this:
Garrac wrote: How much will cost the Mark 2 box set? Im eyeing to buy the actual 10 man-squad still present on the web, but I don't know if the HH kit will be cheaper
I don't think we have anything in the way of reliable rumors on this.
I believe when GW reboxed Intercessors to ten a box, and before that Sigmarines, it was 25€ for five and 45€ for ten. That's a 10% price decrease per model.
Khorne's Juggernaut rider models on the fantasy side also got doubled. I don't recall the exact prices unfortunately, but I believe the price decrease per model may have been in the 10% to 15% span. Something like 42.50€ for three and later on 70€ or 75€ for six.
Unless GW wants to price Horus Heresy plastics aggressively to sell as many as they can, I think the 20 man boxes will cost something like 75€. 70€ if we're lucky, but I have my doubts. It'll save a you a little bit per model over the current Mk.III box is that's 42.50€ for ten.
At any rate, this is just my best guess. May turn out differently in the end.
I find it funny that people claim any 30K/40K history as "official" since GW has and probably will change that "official" history whenever they feel the need. My goodness people these models fought in a war that never happened. It's a game. Live. It's impossible to document a fictional event/thing. That's why it's called fiction and not factual.
Just as an example of retconning for most of 40K history Sanguinis was killed. Right there in front of the Emporer. But now, it appears that he got better and was only mostly dead.
Garrac wrote: How much will cost the Mark 2 box set? Im eyeing to buy the actual 10 man-squad still present on the web, but I don't know if the HH kit will be cheaper
I don't think we have anything in the way of reliable rumors on this.
I believe when GW reboxed Intercessors to ten a box, and before that Sigmarines, it was 25€ for five and 45€ for ten. That's a 10% price decrease per model.
Khorne's Juggernaut rider models on the fantasy side also got doubled. I don't recall the exact prices unfortunately, but I believe the price decrease per model may have been in the 10% to 15% span. Something like 42.50€ for three and later on 70€ or 75€ for six.
Unless GW wants to price Horus Heresy plastics aggressively to sell as many as they can, I think the 20 man boxes will cost something like 75€. 70€ if we're lucky, but I have my doubts. It'll save a you a little bit per model over the current Mk.III box is that's 42.50€ for ten.
At any rate, this is just my best guess. May turn out differently in the end.
I'd not be shocked to see something like €55/$70 USD for 20 marines, 1) because they want the game to sell well, and 2) because unless you plan to run a pure bolter army you'll also have to shell out at least another $50* for one of the weapons upgrade packs, and perhaps another $25-30 for the rumored legion specific upgrade sprues. It feels like they're taking a bit of a page from the video game market and trying to tap into upsell potential at every turn with this game.
*Maybe the weapons will be a bit cheaper, but the Necromunda weapons upgrades have ~25 weapons and cost €21/$27 USD.
Just as an example of retconning for most of 40K history Sanguinis was killed. Right there in front of the Emporer. But now, it appears that he got better and was only mostly dead.
Garrac wrote: How much will cost the Mark 2 box set? Im eyeing to buy the actual 10 man-squad still present on the web, but I don't know if the HH kit will be cheaper
I don't think we have anything in the way of reliable rumors on this.
I believe when GW reboxed Intercessors to ten a box, and before that Sigmarines, it was 25€ for five and 45€ for ten. That's a 10% price decrease per model.
Khorne's Juggernaut rider models on the fantasy side also got doubled. I don't recall the exact prices unfortunately, but I believe the price decrease per model may have been in the 10% to 15% span. Something like 42.50€ for three and later on 70€ or 75€ for six.
Unless GW wants to price Horus Heresy plastics aggressively to sell as many as they can, I think the 20 man boxes will cost something like 75€. 70€ if we're lucky, but I have my doubts. It'll save a you a little bit per model over the current Mk.III box is that's 42.50€ for ten.
At any rate, this is just my best guess. May turn out differently in the end.
I'd not be shocked to see something like €55/$70 USD for 20 marines, 1) because they want the game to sell well, and 2) because unless you plan to run a pure bolter army you'll also have to shell out at least another $50* for one of the weapons upgrade packs, and perhaps another $25-30 for the rumored legion specific upgrade sprues. It feels like they're taking a bit of a page from the video game market and trying to tap into upsell potential at every turn with this game.
*Maybe the weapons will be a bit cheaper, but the Necromunda weapons upgrades have ~25 weapons and cost €21/$27 USD.
Good point, they may go a little cheaper if they are confident that they can reliably sell an upgrade sprue for every box of Marines. At least legion upgrades, if those are coming. I'm not sure they'd do that for special and heavy weapons as you may want a variable amount of those. I'd expect those to be bonus expense or profit, depending on which side you're on.
And while I certainly hope you're right, what can only be described as a reasonable price for a box of 20 Marines is definitely believe it when I see it territory for me.
I believe when GW reboxed Intercessors to ten a box, and before that Sigmarines, it was 25€ for five and 45€ for ten. That's a 10% price decrease per model.
The initial Primaris release wave had both Combat Squad boxes and Squad boxes, with the Combat Squads being a splash release.
When it come to actual reboxing and doubling of contents, we have some historical precedent:
At least in the USA, it went from 5 Liberators for $50 to 10 Liberators for $62, 5 Judicators for $50 to 10 for $62, and 3 Prosecutors for $60 to 6 for $74
Middle-earth relaunch went from about $28 for a single sprue of infantry to $42 for two sprues for LOTR infantry. (The M-E finecast sets went from $25 for a blister of three models to $65 for a box of twelve models.)
I'm hoping for the same kind of discount as I don't own any Mk III and would like a box, and $55 for ten is out of my desire while say $75-80 for twenty seems do-able.
judgedoug wrote: The initial Primaris release wave had both Combat Squad boxes and Squad boxes, with the Combat Squads being a splash release.
Correct.
Since I have reason to believe that the ten man Primaris boxes are a direct response to the five man Sigmarine boxes not selling two years earlier and getting reboxed to ten a box, and the equivalent 40k and AoS boxes sharing price points, I suspect the combat squad boxes were just the originally planned Primaris boxes that had already been ordered and printed and that GW didn't want to let go to waste. So still a reboxing in my mind, if an atypical one.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I find it funny that people claim any 30K/40K history as "official" since GW has and probably will change that "official" history whenever they feel the need. My goodness people these models fought in a war that never happened. It's a game. Live. It's impossible to document a fictional event/thing. That's why it's called fiction and not factual.
You didn't get the memo? The 'official' thing is a baseball bat used by screeching gatekeepers to assault everything they don't like out of the hobby. Case in point, every legion used every mark of armour, some were rarer, yes, but even 'preferred' mark of Legion X in practice was just a plurality, far from majority, of their gear. Despite this, these types latched on to Mk II armies as the only ones being 'pure' - even though the only point of 30K where such armies even existed was end of Terran unification and conquest of the Solar system. Any later than that, never mind centuries later like the whole Heresy deal and such army is patently absurd from lore standpoint - yet it gets constantly pear clutched solely because the Mk II is the only mark not available in plastic.
You can make every other mark from plastic boxes, with Mk V being most trivial (just use 'Heresy' pattern helmets or modify Mk VII with greenstuff slightly) - but if you attempt to do so, said types will whinescreech at the very mention (something I saw too many times to count) and refuse to play you and your 'yucky' plastic for daring to cost 1/10 of what they paid while looking better, more lore accurate, and with better proportions (which really says something seeing how bad these are in plastic squatmarines). Go figure. You're making an error of trying to approach insane gatekeeping rationally. It just doesn't work.
Another case in point, screaming at Mk VI at various gatekeeping HH forums and YT channels. Never mind it's really common mark of armour by late HH (being actual majority of new suits received by all legions at that point in time, next to salvage being remade into Mk V) yet all I saw was proactive frothing frenzy at both new models and people liking them (along with calling them various slurs, 'shill' being the lightest one). I even saw people sell or smash their preexisting Mk VI squads because they give them cooties now or something. I have no idea how any sort of even remotely rational thinking can produce this insanity
And the funniest part of all the above is, FW canned Mk II because it was just not selling due to being ugly and lore inaccurate before GW released Mk III and IV - then instantly got latched on and worshipped as the only 'pure' resin left. I just wonder what will happen once GW will release Mk II too - will insane gatekeepers then insist Mk I was really the only thing the legions used all along, or will bring a drill to every game to certify opposing models aren't these yucky plastics (it will probably be obvious from much better detail and proportions, but one can never be too sure) by spot checking suspect models?
Oh, yeah, I was refering to the mark III, not mark ii. Sorry
Ummmm then I don't know what to do, here in Spain the 10-men squad costs 42,50 euros, but if for 15 euros more we get a 20-men squad it's worth waiting then?
(Just looking to kitbash into some havocs+kt sprue since I freaking love mark iii)
Garrac wrote: Oh, yeah, I was refering to the mark III, not mark ii. Sorry
Ummmm then I don't know what to do, here in Spain the 10-men squad costs 42,50 euros, but if for 15 euros more we get a 20-men squad it's worth waiting then?
(Just looking to kitbash into some havocs+kt sprue since I freaking love mark iii)
Well, it really depends on how many do you actually need.
Crimson wrote: JFC, what does it matter? "The techmarine reversed the polarity of the neutron flow, so now it works fine." It is all made up nonsense anyway, you can just plug any gaps with more made up nonsense.
People should feel free to build their models in the way they themselves think looks the best.
Agreed. I don't know where someone gets off going "but dual technology circuits", as if any of us knows what that means or how they function or what compatibility they might or might not have with other technologies. For all we know its the difference between USB and USB 2.0, two intercompatible technologies that just so happens to run faster if everything involved is USB 2.0/dual technology compliant, whereas its bottlenecked if you use the older stuff. In any case, fact of the matter is that the explicit statements of the people who are literally making this gak up override any notional implied interpretation you may have taken away from it. Call it a retcon, call it a continuity error, call it whatever it is that makes you feel better about it, but at the end of the day it *is* all made up and fictional. It doesn't matter any way shape or form whatsoever beyond how its used as a justification by the writers for why things happen or are, etc.
Strg Alt wrote: The artist didn´t paint the legion symbol on the shoulder pad in the NL video. Was he told to wait for the inevitable upgrade sprue?
I've watched a few of the HH painting vids, and I don't recall Legion badges being used on any of them. Possibly they are waiting until a later date to release a vid on transfer application.
Honestly I look forward to using models that can be transported in a hot car without melting, but maybe that's just me.
So gatekeepers or not I'm going to be using as much plastic as possible because it weighs less, is less prone to snapping or melting and doesn't have the quality control issues FW resin kits are prone to.
I'm looking at sculpting flayed skin, adding body parts, bones and chains to my Night Lords. Been considering giving them all the Sinner's Red because it'd help splash some color in the midst of all that blue with a justification that the bearers chose so to mark themselves out as traitors in a form of twisted pride or perhaps fatalistic determination.
So yeah, I'm looking forward to this release and it's got the hobby wheels turning for me.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Who exactly is "gatekeeping" with resin minis?
I've seen a few online crying about people all playing MkVI and bandwagoning in because of the box set and some grumbling about the community changing because new people will be coming into it, but honestly it's largely died down over the last month.
Dig the article too, especially the line "Fair fights are for idiots with more honor than sense". Now these guys get the 8th Legion. Can we get them to talk to the 40k rules writers, please?
Gadzilla666 wrote: Dig the article too, especially the line "Fair fights are for idiots with more honor than sense". Now these guys get the 8th Legion. Can we get them to talk to the 40k rules writers, please?
No. Your 10,000 years of experience in the Long War means you are slightly better with pistols after a battle's been going on for a while.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Dig the article too, especially the line "Fair fights are for idiots with more honor than sense". Now these guys get the 8th Legion. Can we get them to talk to the 40k rules writers, please?
No. Your 10,000 years of experience in the Long War means you are slightly better with pistols after a battle's been going on for a while.
Fluffy!!!
Nothing more "fluffy" than CSM following the "Doctrines" of the Codex Astartes.
Dig the article too, especially the line "Fair fights are for idiots with more honor than sense". Now these guys get the 8th Legion. Can we get them to talk to the 40k rules writers, please?
I was thinking the same thing, but then realized that 9th doesn't have pinning.
Dig the article too, especially the line "Fair fights are for idiots with more honor than sense". Now these guys get the 8th Legion. Can we get them to talk to the 40k rules writers, please?
I was thinking the same thing, but then realized that 9th doesn't have pinning.
Sadly, no it doesn't. But they could still do the "outnumbering" thing. Or just write meaningful morale rules, y'know, like pinning.
Gert wrote: His soul is still about. Had a nice chat with Dante when the latter nearly kicked the bucket during the Devastation of Baal.
That doesn't contradict old fluff. Only horus has been said to be dead and soul annihilated by emperor. Sanquinus was killed by horus. State of soul wasn''t specified.
Now if abbadon starts having chat's with horus soul time to pick up pitchforks
Dig the article too, especially the line "Fair fights are for idiots with more honor than sense". Now these guys get the 8th Legion. Can we get them to talk to the 40k rules writers, please?
I was thinking the same thing, but then realized that 9th doesn't have pinning.
Sadly, no it doesn't. But they could still do the "outnumbering" thing. Or just write meaningful morale rules, y'know, like pinning.
Oh gods yes. Also stop giving every army book a sub-faction that ignores attrition. Never counts at below half? Sure. Auto-passes it? No. Stop it. Bad.
Gert wrote: His soul is still about. Had a nice chat with Dante when the latter nearly kicked the bucket during the Devastation of Baal.
That doesn't contradict old fluff. Only horus has been said to be dead and soul annihilated by emperor. Sanquinus was killed by horus. State of soul wasn''t specified.
Now if abbadon starts having chat's with horus soul time to pick up pitchforks
I thought he soul was stuck on the Vengeful Spirit in the form of a crystalline statue?
As for mixing/matching armour, I'm planning on equipping my Breechers and Heavy support squads in MkIII and everything else in MkII, just for the sake of breaking up the 'sameness' of having just one type of armour, and is in theme for the Imperial Fists anyway.
Adding to this, I will also look at sourcing some bits from the Iron Hands selection, as some of their upgrades can do wonders for kitbashing some models or adding some flair to certain squads.
Strg Alt wrote: The artist didn´t paint the legion symbol on the shoulder pad in the NL video. Was he told to wait for the inevitable upgrade sprue?
I've watched a few of the HH painting vids, and I don't recall Legion badges being used on any of them. Possibly they are waiting until a later date to release a vid on transfer application.
Transfers tend to suck badly when applied to a curved surface. Trying to get them properly aligned by cutting slightly into them didn´t work either. It´s just bad. Either you do a free hand painting (difficult and time consuming depending on the symbol) or you get specific shoulder pads with molded symbols.
The 2nd Night Lord transfers had upward folded wings which were easy to apply to shoulder pads. Next generation of NL transfer had wings which spread horizontally. Those were way more difficult to align. So I just proceeded to paint lightning bolts instead of placing transfers.
Strg Alt wrote: The artist didn´t paint the legion symbol on the shoulder pad in the NL video. Was he told to wait for the inevitable upgrade sprue?
I've watched a few of the HH painting vids, and I don't recall Legion badges being used on any of them. Possibly they are waiting until a later date to release a vid on transfer application.
Transfers tend to suck badly when applied to a curved surface. Trying to get them properly aligned by cutting slightly into them didn´t work either. It´s just bad. Either you do a free hand painting (difficult and time consuming depending on the symbol) or you get specific shoulder pads with molded symbols.
The 2nd Night Lord transfers had upward folded wings which were easy to apply to shoulder pads. Next generation of NL transfer had wings which spread horizontally. Those were way more difficult to align. So I just proceeded to paint lightning bolts instead of placing transfers.
Micro Sol and Micro Set are your friends for transfers.
I know these are biased jokes articles but this ones reads exactly like the BL Bangles.
There, fate would see the Angel Encarmine battle Ka’bandha once more – and this time he put in a cracking performance. We’ve yet to see how the Siege of Terra ends, but based on Sanguinius’ track record, it seems a pretty safe bet that he’ll emerge from this whole fiasco without a scratch.
A nail in the coffin of the Sang vs Angron fan theory, which is good. As per the precedent set by Mortarion and Jaghatai, Angron should smash Sang to bits.
Once again, there seems to be a disconnect in how GW themselves paints things and how they teach their customers to paint.
The colours used in the tutorial look way too red/pink compared to the Eavy Metal example in the the article
This topic of red shade is a pet peeve of mine. I am a big proponent of a more "desaturated orange"/vermillion over bright red for BA
PS - Am I the only one who finds the weak gun barrel drilling on the model a flocking eyesore?
Once again, there seems to be a disconnect in how GW themselves paints things and how they teach their customers to paint.
The colours used in the tutorial look way too red/pink compared to the Eavy Metal example in the the article
This topic of red shade is a pet peeve of mine. I am a big proponent of a more "desaturated orange"/vermillion over bright red for BA
PS - Am I the only one who finds the weak gun barrel drilling on the model a flocking eyesore?
Better than Space Wolves gun sights being on the bottom of the barrel , but yes. Photoshop could have fixed that easily.
tauist wrote: PS - Am I the only one who finds the weak gun barrel drilling on the model a flocking eyesore?
I mean, if they're not going to take writing about a project seriously, what makes you think they'll take the modelling/painting side seriously?
I don't know what you're talking about. It's clear they're taking this super seriously. I mean just look:
We’ve yet to see how the Siege of Terra ends, but based on Sanguinius’ track record, it seems a pretty safe bet that he’ll emerge from this whole fiasco without a scratch.
Why waste everyone's time with resin upgrades when they make plastic minis for store openings and all sorts of other one off nonsense? Quick! I need a new Drekki Flynt model stat!
Awesome! Seems like we will be getting resin heads and chapter symbols for the beakies very soon after the release.
I wonder if my old plastic 40K plastic Mk VI shoulderpads will match in size with these ones.. Would be great if they did as that'd give me yet another new option.
These legion specific MkVI heads dont look anything like MkVI helmets though.. but I suppose that makes HH enthusiasts stomach the MkVI armour choice better.
Albertorius wrote: In my IWs I currently have marks II to V in various numbers.
I might paint some beakies for them, but I'm not sure I like how they look, and I want to do a RT Battle for the Farm set, so...
Do it and call them recon marines. That armor mark for the IW would fit the role and its a cheap troop choice that would allow you to get ahead of your enemy. Also at some point, I'm sure they will make them jump troops too and you can tell the story that they needed to use lighter armor to get their troops ahead. That or just replace the heads with IW heads. You can still use the models to represent something in your army. Personally, I'm using them as my specialist units - Heavy Weapons, Special Weapons, and Recon. All of my Tactical units and special units are Mk3 & 4.
These could be useful elsewhere. Blood Angel, Ultramarine and Thousand Sons HH heads can look good on many model types - not just HH Marines - and if there's a strong set of heads that I can use to replace Primaris helmets, then all the better.
It depends on which GW ones you mean.
The Primaris upgrades (which work fine on Firstborn btw) are £16 for 12 tactical pads, 6 aggressor pads, 6 heads, 2 guns/4 CCW, and 10 gubbins.
The older Marine upgrades are £9.50 for an average of 10 pads, 4 heads, 1 torso and 2 weapons.
The FW pads kits are £14.50 for 10 pads.
FW has always been more expensive for less stuff.
Not really an exciting or interesting release IMO. I think we all knew upgrade packs were coming but this is a bit dry and honestly it being in resin means the cost will be pretty high.
I would've much preferred something closer to the Primaris upgrades - which are really quite nice little kits. While of course, you wouldn't get enough heads for each miniature, I would prefer a unique power fist or power weapon sculpt, a few more ornate shoulder pads, heads and some accessories over ten kinda bland heads?
blood reaper wrote: Not really an exciting or interesting release IMO. I think we all knew upgrade packs were coming but this is a bit dry and honestly it being in resin means the cost will be pretty high.
I would've much preferred something closer to the Primaris upgrades - which are really quite nice little kits. While of course, you wouldn't get enough heads for each miniature, I would prefer a unique power fist or power weapon sculpt, a few more ornate shoulder pads, heads and some accessories over ten kinda bland heads?
They could have done a BT style upgrade set for each legion and they would have outsold most of the side games. There's really no excuse for resin. Maybe Roundtree's nephew mixes it or something.
blood reaper wrote: Not really an exciting or interesting release IMO. I think we all knew upgrade packs were coming but this is a bit dry and honestly it being in resin means the cost will be pretty high.
I would've much preferred something closer to the Primaris upgrades - which are really quite nice little kits. While of course, you wouldn't get enough heads for each miniature, I would prefer a unique power fist or power weapon sculpt, a few more ornate shoulder pads, heads and some accessories over ten kinda bland heads?
They could have done a BT style upgrade set for each legion and they would have outsold most of the side games. There's really no excuse for resin. Maybe Roundtree's nephew mixes it or something.
The question is - are these being sold through GW stores?
I dunno, I ultimately am not too bothered by this - I buy upgrades individually via eBay on occasion but rarely go for whole packs.
So to properly* kit out a marine you'll need to buy a box of marines, a box of weapons, a blister of heads, and a blister of shoulder pads?
Feels like they're nickel and diming this release.
Really bummed out that they're using resin for these. I was hoping, perhaps naively, that we'd see something on the order of the upgrade pack that came with the Black Templar's release wave for each legion. 20 helmets, 20 shoulders, and a smattering of special weapons and decorative bobs in plastic to give the units a unique look. There'd probably be good crossover for these into the 40K playerbase, where they could be positioned as "relics."
Huge whiff, IMHO.
* Yes, yes, you can obviously run an army entirely comprised of beakie, bolter only troops and apply the transfers.
I for one am chuffed the bonces aren’t legion specific Just Beaky With A Symbol, but seemingly (if a sample of 1 from 18 is in fact a sample? I mean it’s objectively not, but run with me here!) a bit more visually distinct and therefore interesting.
Certainly something I’ll consider for special units, such as Legion Veteran Squads, if not for all Power Armour Squads.
Pads are more of a near must-have, because I prefer sculpted to transferred detail
Wait until the 12th Legion arrives. Looking forward to those.
My hope for the WE is some kind of Chain Axe plastic upgrade pack but uh, I would NOT put it past GW to make those resin and charge like £15 for 10 of them.
Of course, they can't stop me from acquiring them from less costly sources.
Wait until the 12th Legion arrives. Looking forward to those.
My hope for the WE is some kind of Chain Axe plastic upgrade pack but uh, I would NOT put it past GW to make those resin and charge like £15 for 10 of them.
Of course, they can't stop me from acquiring them from less costly sources.
This is an interesting question overall.
We know for certain we’ll be seeing plakky weapon upgrades. But all we know is that those are kind of generic, Legion agnostic shooters.
I fully expect to see Legionnaire Assault Squad Kits, and I suspect we’ll see similar plakky upgrade options.
But, Legion Specific/Limited shooters and whackers? I guess, and only guess, that might boil down to how prevalent they are in the army list. If World Eaters can field significant numbers of Chain Axe equipped Assault Troops, I’d hope for plastic. But if they’re less widespread in their Codex List Equivalent? Arguably more likely resin.
Wait until the 12th Legion arrives. Looking forward to those.
My hope for the WE is some kind of Chain Axe plastic upgrade pack but uh, I would NOT put it past GW to make those resin and charge like £15 for 10 of them.
Of course, they can't stop me from acquiring them from less costly sources.
This is an interesting question overall.
We know for certain we’ll be seeing plakky weapon upgrades. But all we know is that those are kind of generic, Legion agnostic shooters.
I fully expect to see Legionnaire Assault Squad Kits, and I suspect we’ll see similar plakky upgrade options.
But, Legion Specific/Limited shooters and whackers? I guess, and only guess, that might boil down to how prevalent they are in the army list. If World Eaters can field significant numbers of Chain Axe equipped Assault Troops, I’d hope for plastic. But if they’re less widespread in their Codex List Equivalent? Arguably more likely resin.
I mean I have the leaked play test document and, like with the previous edition, all WEs can take Chain Axes (this document has matched up 1 to 1 with every piece of info GW has released so far). So like, as a WE, you are notionally going to be taking a lot of chain axes.
I’m going to put on my cynical hat for a moment. Please excuse the dust as it doesn’t often get an outing…..
HH has been predominantly resin since pretty much Forever. And it’s clearly done more than well enough to earn a proper plastic upgrade and relaunch.
We the players (and potential players) may yet be starry eyed that the plastic stuff is more affordable (and in a superior material for my money), and so be ripe for higher priced resin upgrades.
For instance. I might baulk at paying (checks Forgeworld for some semblance of accuracy) £45 for 5 Jump Pack Assault Marines in a material I loathe working with, but look more favourably on paying say, number out my arse…£40 for 10 in plastic, then paying £30+ for Legion lids and pads and weapons etc - because I’m still stoked I’ve paid less for more base models in a subjectively better material in the first place, and not really think too hard about the cost of the upgrades.
Oh man this Cynical Hat is most definitely a fashion faux pas for me!
Imperial Fists as the first upgrade kit sounds sensible, again coinciding with the RTB-01 celebrations. "Battle At The Farm" was Crimson Fists vs Orks, right? The IF shoulderpad will be perfect for that.
flaherty wrote: So to properly* kit out a marine you'll need to buy a box of marines, a box of weapons, a blister of heads, and a blister of shoulder pads?
Feels like they're nickel and diming this release.
Really bummed out that they're using resin for these. I was hoping, perhaps naively, that we'd see something on the order of the upgrade pack that came with the Black Templar's release wave for each legion. 20 helmets, 20 shoulders, and a smattering of special weapons and decorative bobs in plastic to give the units a unique look. There'd probably be good crossover for these into the 40K playerbase, where they could be positioned as "relics."
Huge whiff, IMHO.
* Yes, yes, you can obviously run an army entirely comprised of beakie, bolter only troops and apply the transfers.
Legion Tacticals can't take special weapons, only Veterans and Support squads can. So the MkVI box is actually representative of a Legion Tactical squad rather than a 40k Tactical squad.
Previously special and heavy weapons were only available in packs of 10 from FW as well. These new boxes are far better value before we've even seen the price.
As for iconography, this is exactly the same as every other Space Marine unit, sculpted pads or gubbins have always been separate from the generic units.
flaherty wrote: So to properly* kit out a marine you'll need to buy a box of marines, a box of weapons, a blister of heads, and a blister of shoulder pads?
The helmets and shoulder pads are optional to help bling out your favorite Sergeants and HQs. I'm all for hating GW but this was a lame complaint on your end.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Remember that for each legion specific kit/pack for heresy, they have to multiply production by 18 and divide the target audience by the same.
Same as with any other SM upgrade sprue ever, right. And all these are compatible with any regular 40k marine, too, so...
Typically boilerplate set of rules in the blood angels preview, +1 to wound on the charge and access to inferno pistols, yaaaay. Meanwhile Dark angels get all this hexagrammamammaton bs
Billicus wrote: Typically boilerplate set of rules in the blood angels preview, +1 to wound on the charge and access to inferno pistols, yaaaay. Meanwhile Dark angels get all this hexagrammamammaton bs
It isn't a full rules preview. Did you not notice that the Dark Angels didn't get a Legion Trait or the Blood Angels their unique Reaction or Warlord trait?
flaherty wrote: So to properly* kit out a marine you'll need to buy a box of marines, a box of weapons, a blister of heads, and a blister of shoulder pads?
The helmets and shoulder pads are optional to help bling out your favorite Sergeants and HQs. I'm all for hating GW but this was a lame complaint on your end.
Perhaps, I just find the impulse to white knight retrograde products baffling.
An Imperial Fist *successor chapter* got a superior plastic kit within the last twelve months that had ten plastic heads and 19 shoulder pads, weapons, vehicle upgrades, and various pieces to bling out units. These resin upgrades, even if used sparingly, will cost more, be of lower quality, and provide fewer options. For goodness sakes, House Cawdor and the rest of the Necromunda gangs got plastic upgrade kits. If GW intends, as some believe, that HH is going to be a new "third system" then launching it with accessories of lower quality than one of their specialist games seems weird.
Seriously, is any Space Marine legion likely to sell fewer upgrade packs than House Van Saar from Necromunda? It strikes me as implausible, especially with the most minor effort they could be sold to 40K players.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Remember that for each legion specific kit/pack for heresy, they have to multiply production by 18 and divide the target audience by the same.
Same as with any other SM upgrade sprue ever, right. And all these are compatible with any regular 40k marine, too, so...
Those tend to come out only 1 or 2 at a time alongside a codex or supplement book. And if the heresy upgrades are compatible, why not just use the existing sm upgrade kits for heresy shoulders, and spend the plastic sprue budget that would have gone to more shoulders on some plastic consuls instead that all 18 legions can benefit from?
The shoulder upgrades are also ONLY going to work on MK VI armor.
also I recall hearing somewhere that the upgrade packs for the various marine forces weren't selling as well as GW had initally hoped. that's why the "second wave" included some unique bling like pwoer hammers etc. so GW could push sales beyond what they would have.
anyway I'm betting we'll also get a sons of horus upgrade pack along the same time as Imperial fists. Sons of Horus and Imperial fists are going to be the "Ultramarines" of this edition of HH
BrianDavion wrote: The shoulder upgrades are also ONLY going to work on MK VI armor.
I very much doubt that's the case... I mean, yeah, those are Mark VI shoulder pads, but it's not like we all haven't mixed armor parts all the time anyways.
BrianDavion wrote: The shoulder upgrades are also ONLY going to work on MK VI armor.
I very much doubt that's the case... I mean, yeah, those are Mark VI shoulder pads, but it's not like we all haven't mixed armor parts all the time anyways.
yes but in this case it's a direction of herealdry issue. most suits of armor have the hereldry on the left side. but MK VI is designed to have the studs on that side and the hereldry on the right side. with some of the Legions this won't be an issue but with others (the space wolves for example) this will be an issue
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW a "how to paoint" video I found online on youtube noted that the mk vi he got from the games day was primed in a Sons of Horus Green. so new primers may be coming.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Who wants to take bets on how long it takes to get all 18 legions their upgrades
"In due course" doesn't sound encouraging for a FW timescale
Shoulder pads ought to be pretty quick, unlike the legion specific dreadnought or praetor. They already have the digital assets for the icons and pads, just combine and cast. Helmet sets may be a bit longer depending on what they do with them.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Who wants to take bets on how long it takes to get all 18 legions their upgrades
"In due course" doesn't sound encouraging for a FW timescale
Yeah, that does sound bad. I can vaguely understand rushing the IF and Sons, since they're the posterboys of the box, but I dislike the idea that everyone else is supposed to... make do? with temporarily blu-tacked pads if they're a later legion and want chapter icons?
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Who wants to take bets on how long it takes to get all 18 legions their upgrades
"In due course" doesn't sound encouraging for a FW timescale
Yeah, that does sound bad. I can vaguely understand rushing the IF and Sons, since they're the posterboys of the box, but I dislike the idea that everyone else is supposed to... make do? with temporarily blu-tacked pads if they're a later legion and want chapter icons?
This has been the state of 30k since it's inception. In fact, we STILL don't have a Raven Guard or Emperor's Children praetor kit. It took a long time for everyone to get their Primarchs, for everyone to get their various 'specail units' and whatnot.
Either do what you suggest and use some poster tack on some stuff, get some 3rd party shoulder pads from a 3d printer company, or go with transfers instead, if they come back.
Resin? The whole point of this is to get away from Resin, not dig further into it. Titanium Class Hard Pass for me. I'll stick with Transfers.
On that note though, what's really annoying is that they've literally released these pads in plastic for 40K before. Death Watch kits, and individual upgrade kits both firstborne and primaris. What in tarnation caused this to happen?!
IIRC, resin weapon upgrades for Necromunda preceded the current plastic ones. Maybe we are going to see a similar progression here? As in, if HH 2.0 turns out to be a success for GW, plastic upgrade kits will follow, possibly coinciding with the individual legion codex releases which are presumably already on the roadmap?
I don't mind resin heads & shoulderpads BLACK bit. They are among the easiest parts to neatly superglue onto a plastic miniature. My only gripe is that the shoulderpad iconography kit could have cost a bit more and thrown the pauldron sides into the kit as well, to save us OCD types from having to deal with WHITE-part pauldron pads..
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Who wants to take bets on how long it takes to get all 18 legions their upgrades
"In due course" doesn't sound encouraging for a FW timescale
A few days? Third party 3d modellers are very quick in that regard.
You can already get them all
Or make yours yourself, given there's vector images of all legions and 3d builder is free...
Well, being the kind hearted soul I am, I'm giving them a few days to adapt their designs to either split them apart or put in grooves simulating two part shoulder pads.
Are people seriously getting upset over the "we're sure he'll emerge from this fiasco without a scratch" comment about Sanguinius? It's genuinely funny. We all know what happens. We all know what the story is. It's just a light-hearted poke at some fictional lore.
I'm pretty sure we don't have to be grimdark to be able to be into grimdark.
Billicus wrote: Typically boilerplate set of rules in the blood angels preview, +1 to wound on the charge and access to inferno pistols, yaaaay. Meanwhile Dark angels get all this hexagrammamammaton bs
It isn't a full rules preview. Did you not notice that the Dark Angels didn't get a Legion Trait or the Blood Angels their unique Reaction or Warlord trait?
I did notice that, but I also noticed that the Dark Angels got the hexagrammaton wings, but there was no mention or hint at anything so detailed for Blood Angels, which was the point I was making. If you're holding out hope that there'll be something that detailed they just decided to leave out of the preview in favour of the things we all already know about, I laugh, because that's daft as hell.
Didn't they say at the start of this only core stuff was going to be plastic and anything legion specific stay at FW? So legion upgrades and specific units are staying resin.
Billicus wrote: I did notice that, but I also noticed that the Dark Angels got the hexagrammaton wings, but there was no mention or hint at anything so detailed for Blood Angels, which was the point I was making. If you're holding out hope that there'll be something that detailed they just decided to leave out of the preview in favour of the things we all already know about, I laugh, because that's daft as hell.
The Dark Angels have the Hexagrammaton in the current version of the game and are the only Legion that has those rules. These aren't in-depth looks at the rules for each Legion.
I legitimately don't get what you are complaining about.
The Dark Angels got two rules previews, one about the Wings (where only two of the six were shown off), and the Legion specific Reaction. Blood Angels got two rules previews, the Legion trait, and that Plasma Pistols can be exchanged for Inferno Pistols. The Dark Angels got one brand new thing and it's purely down to a new game mechanic. The fact that the rules seem to be staying similar to their current version means that there won't be massive sweeping changes, which is good.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Didn't they say at the start of this only core stuff was going to be plastic and anything legion specific stay at FW? So legion upgrades and specific units are staying resin.
I believe they did. But I have to wonder if they couldn't have dipped into the Primaris Lieutenant injection mold fund to offer at least a couple of loyalist and traitor upgrade sets in plastic.
I mean, aren't they trying to make this one of their major games? Resin is notoriously difficult to work with for newcomers, and comes with some serious health risks if you aren't aware of the need for proper ventilation. Just a really perplexing move on GW's part.
If you're getting health problems from resin shoulder pads then that's impressive.
I also love this weird notion that because optional upgrades are in resin, GW is somehow not making HH more accessible. Just ignore the 3 Tacticals, 2 Terminators, boxed set, Spartan, Contemptor, Sicaran, Rhinos and all the other stuff, resin shoulder pads and helmets just ruins the whole thing.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Didn't they say at the start of this only core stuff was going to be plastic and anything legion specific stay at FW? So legion upgrades and specific units are staying resin.
I believe they did. But I have to wonder if they couldn't have dipped into the Primaris Lieutenant injection mold fund to offer at least a couple of loyalist and traitor upgrade sets in plastic.
I mean, aren't they trying to make this one of their major games? Resin is notoriously difficult to work with for newcomers, and comes with some serious health risks if you aren't aware of the need for proper ventilation. Just a really perplexing move on GW's part.
When is the last time we've had a Primaris Lieutenant? We had an Ancient and Gravis captain recently, and promos have included the Imperium Captain and a couple Necron characters and an inquisitor.
Resin is actually the best material for heads and shoulder pads IMO. It means they can have many varieties with sharp details and undercuts, and being small parts you don't have nearly as many issues with warpage or flash and less chance of mould slippage.
BUT... the problem is FW. FW currently charge $2.30 per shoulder pad and $2.40 per head and you have to order them direct. Feth that for a joke.
I'll probably get *a* set of shoulder pads to make a press mold with. Heads will come down to batwings or not as I don't really like the 3rd party beaky batwing options.
Given the consternation we've seen on the topic of shoulder pad seams brought about by two-piece studded pauldrons, I think resin as a medium for new pads is perfectly fine going forward.
Resin heads & pauldrons are no big deal. I'd rather they've been in plastic(and they might yet) but they're easy to work with and look fething dope.
Comparing the FW 30&40k Salamanders shoulder pads I have in resin to the DW/Primaris plastics it's not even funny how much better the FW ones look. But they should keep the same price but double the bits, which we all know they won't do.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Given the consternation we've seen on the topic of shoulder pad seams brought about by two-piece studded pauldrons, I think resin as a medium for new pads is perfectly fine going forward.
I'd be totally happy if they just threw 40 resin shoulder pads and 40 resin heads in a box for, I dunno, $40USD?
I'd even be happy if the ones that came in the actual boxed set itself were resin, for small bits resin is fine.
It's just the price (and to a lesser extent shipping from the UK), $4.70USD per model to swap heads and shoulder pads? No thanks.
Let's not pretend these resin upgrades are a necessity for collecting a HH army. Use transfers, kitbash existing plastic bits, etc. At the end of the day, your modelling and painting skills dictate the overall look of the model far more than a couple resin bling bits.
tauist wrote: Let's not pretend these resin upgrades are a necessity for collecting a HH army. Use transfers, kitbash existing plastic bits, etc. At the end of the day, your modelling and painting skills dictate the overall look of the model far more than a couple resin bling bits.
The fact they aren't necessary doesn't really invalidate the complaints. I want nice moulded shoulder pads. I want alternative heads. GW have just provided an unappealing product for me.
I'd have prefered plastic myself but other then "I have to use a dab of super glue" I don't see any huge downside to resin eneguh to be an "auto disqualifer"
BrianDavion wrote: I'd have prefered plastic myself but other then "I have to use a dab of super glue" I don't see any huge downside to resin eneguh to be an "auto disqualifer"
There's always your good ol' ForgeWorld stamp of quality, aka visible 3D print lines from the master, bubbles, miscasts and the such.
BrianDavion wrote: I'd have prefered plastic myself but other then "I have to use a dab of super glue" I don't see any huge downside to resin eneguh to be an "auto disqualifer"
There's always your good ol' ForgeWorld stamp of quality, aka visible 3D print lines from the master, bubbles, miscasts and the such.
BrianDavion wrote: I'd have prefered plastic myself but other then "I have to use a dab of super glue" I don't see any huge downside to resin eneguh to be an "auto disqualifer"
It’s not an auto disqualifier by any means, especially parts like this that shouldn’t have any major quality issues (just one part as opposed to trying to build a whole resin tank for example). But it does mean they’ll be more expansive, no discount available, and a second order with postage unless they happen to sell them through the GW store.
BrianDavion wrote: I'd have prefered plastic myself but other then "I have to use a dab of super glue" I don't see any huge downside to resin eneguh to be an "auto disqualifer"
There's always your good ol' ForgeWorld stamp of quality, aka visible 3D print lines from the master, bubbles, miscasts and the such.
This is something that's happened? Wow.
Yeah, a few times, like with some runs of the Angel's Tears, the Knight Asterius, or one of the SoH Praetors. They're usually not that blatant and can be easily rectified but- c'mon guys.
If half the products that went out had print lines and it wasn't just a few cases then it wouldn't be rare. But that isn't the case so it's rare.
As for the material it is better than older FW resin.
BrianDavion wrote: I'd have prefered plastic myself but other then "I have to use a dab of super glue" I don't see any huge downside to resin eneguh to be an "auto disqualifer"
There's always your good ol' ForgeWorld stamp of quality, aka visible 3D print lines from the master, bubbles, miscasts and the such.
This is something that's happened? Wow.
My Forge World Arvus Lighters have visible print lines on many surfaces, and also supports that clearly aren't needed for resin casting but exist because it was 3D printed and they didn't bother resculpting supports prior to making the silicone moulds.
It's put me off buying other things I might have wanted from FW.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Yeah, a few times, like with some runs of the Angel's Tears, the Knight Asterius, or one of the SoH Praetors. They're usually not that blatant and can be easily rectified but- c'mon guys.
I don't think they are really "easily rectified" unless you mean "cover with a super thick coat of primer" which then removes one of the main benefits of using resin in the first place (sharp details).
BrianDavion wrote: I'd have prefered plastic myself but other then "I have to use a dab of super glue" I don't see any huge downside to resin eneguh to be an "auto disqualifer"
There's always your good ol' ForgeWorld stamp of quality, aka visible 3D print lines from the master, bubbles, miscasts and the such.
This is something that's happened? Wow.
My Forge World Arvus Lighters have visible print lines on many surfaces, and also supports that clearly aren't needed for resin casting but exist because it was 3D printed and they didn't bother resculpting supports prior to making the silicone moulds.
It's put me off buying other things I might have wanted from FW.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Yeah, a few times, like with some runs of the Angel's Tears, the Knight Asterius, or one of the SoH Praetors. They're usually not that blatant and can be easily rectified but- c'mon guys.
I don't think they are really "easily rectified" unless you mean "cover with a super thick coat of primer" which then removes one of the main benefits of using resin in the first place (sharp details).
Tbh, I think it fething sucks, it's just that everyone always rails on me for being too negative, so I gotta try to at leat limit it at bit.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: @ Wha-mu - I'm sure it's me but I don't see anything wrong with the picture of the head. Could you point out what the problem with it is?
The layer lines all over it, when it's a FW model instead of a printed at home one?
RazorEdge wrote: I have a super cheap (180€) 3D printer and still have smaller and lesser visible printing lines....
Just like the split shoulder pad joints, a little hobby work on every surface done individually by thousands of customers instead of a single GW employee should fix it!
warboss wrote: [Just like the split shoulder pad joints, a little hobby work on every surface done individually by thousands of customers instead of a single GW employee should fix it!
Not really the same. The printing lines could be fixed by FW cleaning up the printed parts more thoroughly before making the mould. The split shoulder pads are a necessity to avoid the nasty undercuts on the studs, which look far worse and which are basically impossible for someone to fix without basically re-sculpting the affected studs, which is far harder than just filling the seam (which will basically be done automatically anyway if you use liquid poly, apply it to both sides and leave them for a short while before pressing together firmly). One is a case of cutting corners, the other is a design decision to get round the limitations of plastic.
warboss wrote: [Just like the split shoulder pad joints, a little hobby work on every surface done individually by thousands of customers instead of a single GW employee should fix it!
Not really the same. The printing lines could be fixed by FW cleaning up the printed parts more thoroughly before making the mould. The split shoulder pads are a necessity to avoid the nasty undercuts on the studs, which look far worse and which are basically impossible for someone to fix without basically re-sculpting the affected studs, which is far harder than just filling the seam (which will basically be done automatically anyway if you use liquid poly, apply it to both sides and leave them for a short while before pressing together firmly). One is a case of cutting corners, the other is a design decision to get round the limitations of plastic.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: @ Wha-mu - I'm sure it's me but I don't see anything wrong with the picture of the head. Could you point out what the problem with it is?
The layer lines all over it, when it's a FW model instead of a printed at home one?
Are those the small wave-like lines I see? I just thought they were supposed to represent some sort of energy eminating from the helmet.
Billicus wrote: I don't understand the argument against one piece studded shoulder pads, they've been making them since like the 80s and they've always been fine
They've 'always been' smooshed and stretched.
Find a good picture of both- the difference on the studs, particularly in the lower right and left, is pretty stark.
Billicus wrote: I don't understand the argument against one piece studded shoulder pads, they've been making them since like the 80s and they've always been fine
They've 'always been' smooshed and stretched.
Find a good picture of both- the difference on the studs, particularly in the lower right and left, is pretty stark.
I tend to think they're both a bad compromise. The old ones with the stretched studs didn't look particularly good, and these ones have the seam line in such a horrible place to try and clean up (between the studs). You can see in some of the GW videos where they haven't tried to fix the seam it's ugly, it can be made invisible with some work but it's not fun work especially when you are going to be doing it 40+ times. For a one off character model, sure, that's fine, I'll spend a few minutes fixing the seam, for 40+ infantry, urgh.
I would almost prefer they modify the design and put an actual panel line there, or come up with a better way of doing it.
Yeah, it's a horrible solution - nobody is going to want to sort out that join on 40 shoulder pads. Are we saying because the studs are a bit irregular on the old ones it was worth just ruining the model to have more uniform round studs? Madness.
Billicus wrote: Yeah, it's a horrible solution - nobody is going to want to sort out that join on 40 shoulder pads. Are we saying because the studs are a bit irregular on the old ones it was worth just ruining the model to have more uniform round studs? Madness.
Unless you're remodelling the deformed bonding studs you don't have a leg to stand on. The seem is by far the less intrusive compromise. Imagine that, having to hide a seem when building a model kit. Madness.
Billicus wrote: Yeah, it's a horrible solution - nobody is going to want to sort out that join on 40 shoulder pads. Are we saying because the studs are a bit irregular on the old ones it was worth just ruining the model to have more uniform round studs? Madness.
Unless you're remodelling the deformed bonding studs you don't have a leg to stand on. The seem is by far the less intrusive compromise. Imagine that, having to hide a seem when building a model kit. Madness.
Imagine people preferring malformed side studs instead and not insulting other peoples' preferences.
Everyone that has bought space marines has several dozen spare shoulder pads, if these new ones aren't to their liking. Not that I'd ever expect that to stem the tide of dakka whimpering ofc.
Billicus wrote: Yeah, it's a horrible solution - nobody is going to want to sort out that join on 40 shoulder pads. Are we saying because the studs are a bit irregular on the old ones it was worth just ruining the model to have more uniform round studs? Madness.
Unless you're remodelling the deformed bonding studs you don't have a leg to stand on. The seem is by far the less intrusive compromise. Imagine that, having to hide a seem when building a model kit. Madness.
Imagine people preferring malformed side studs instead and not insulting other peoples' preferences.
Stretched studs could be fixed with a touch of filing and/or painting the offending section a darker color to fake it.
These new pads seem like they'll be a bit more work but offer superior results.
If that's a worthwhile tradeoff is up to each person, but if we're all very lucky mkV armor will come with stetched pads and the two camps can have a mutually beneficial trade. Plus it'd be a fun little giggle at mkV having shoddier construction in real life to match the fluff.
All assuming we get a mkV box, of course, and that people are patient enough to wait for it or find alternative solutions until then. Or I suppose a mkVI assault squad. Those might need to save on sprue space so I can imagine GW using stetched stud pads to make room for jump packs and chainswords.
Billicus wrote: Yeah, it's a horrible solution - nobody is going to want to sort out that join on 40 shoulder pads. Are we saying because the studs are a bit irregular on the old ones it was worth just ruining the model to have more uniform round studs? Madness.
I think it depends how good you want your models to look and how much time you're willing to put into it.
The seam line is ugly, and will maybe take a few minutes to fix on each model, but once it's fixed the shoulder pad looks good. I think that's a good option for a character model where you'll likely be spending a few hours on them anyway and a bad option on a horde of rank and file dudes.
The stretched studs, they also don't look great and I think it's a coin toss which one I dislike more, but to fix them will be a pain in the arse, so if you're going for a display quality model they're going to be a pain in the arse.
The best option IMO is neither, there's a few options that get around the problem entirely. The four options that come to my mind, add an actual panel line to the shoulder pad, use resin instead of plastic for the shoulder pad, use slide moulds to allow undercuts, or do a 3 part shoulder pad where the studs are grouped on a separate piece that pushes through from the back with the join lines hidden around the base of the studs.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: The four options that come to my mind, add an actual panel line to the shoulder pad,
Maybe, but the line would go through some studs.
use resin instead of plastic for the shoulder pad
Horribly expensive and logistically impractical.
use slide moulds to allow undercuts
I'm not sure that actually works in this case, and if it did the mould lines would be complicated
or do a 3 part shoulder pad where the studs are grouped on a separate piece that pushes through from the back with the join lines hidden around the base of the studs.
I'm not sure what you mean? It seems to me that the holes would have to be angled in a manner that is incompatible with two part steel moulds.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: The four options that come to my mind, add an actual panel line to the shoulder pad,
Maybe, but the line would go through some studs.
It could be made to go around the studs, maybe have it so one stud is on one panel and the stud above it is on the other panel, so it's like the studs are joining the panels.
I appreciate that changes the aesthetic and gives it a less "clean" look, but I think it'd be a good aesthetic compromise to the assembly compromises we currently have.
use resin instead of plastic for the shoulder pad
Horribly expensive and logistically impractical.
It's only expensive in GW land where resin = FW = poor quality = absurdly expensive.
use slide moulds to allow undercuts
I'm not sure that actually works in this case, and if it did the mould lines would be complicated
I think it works but it'd take some design work. GW have used slide moulds in the past, but rarely, so I don't know what their capability it in that regard.
Mould lines are a lot easier to clean up than seam lines, so even if there were more lines to clean up that'd be my preference.
or do a 3 part shoulder pad where the studs are grouped on a separate piece that pushes through from the back with the join lines hidden around the base of the studs.
I'm not sure what you mean? It seems to me that the holes would have to be angled in a manner that is incompatible with two part steel moulds.
The holes through the shoulder pad would have to be in line with the mould parting direction (so cutting through at an angle), but the studs would be case separately (as a tree of 3 or 5 studs depending on how you do it, so you don't have to glue in 12 studs individually but rather glue in an assembly of multiple studs). The studs down the middle of the pad could be included in the main pad rather than a separate piece because they're in the direction of the mould parting anyway.
I think it'd work, but I'd have to CAD it up to check.
So, the Mark VIs are a single sprue plus a small options one instead of the triple ones used for the Mark IIIs and IVs.
I'm sure that for them it will be very good, what with a third of the price for the same retail value, but for me it's very disappointing to see they're going the Necromunda way.
Good to see you can plop in whatever arms and heads you want, at least.
Also confirmed the splitted shoulder pads and how much real space they take in the sprue...
Albertorius wrote: So, the Mark VIs are a single sprue plus a small options one instead of the triple ones used for the Mark IIs and IIIs.
I'm sure that for them it will be very good, what with a third of the price for the same retail value, but for me it's very disappointing to see they're going the Necromunda way.
Good to see you can plop in whatever arms and heads you want, at least.
Also confirmed the splitteds shoulder pad and how much real space they take in the sprue...
Yeah I don’t like that. Could have easily gone with 10 unique poses for the same sprues as the other Mks. (Although I don’t agree about the space the split shoulder pads take up, it’s barely more than the normal ones and the space you’d save wouldn’t offer anything meaningful).
It's very disappointing that there are effectively only 5 different poses for the MKVI. They should have used two sprues so that there could have been at least ten poses.
Albertorius wrote: So, the Mark VIs are a single sprue plus a small options one instead of the triple ones used for the Mark IIIs and IVs.
I'm sure that for them it will be very good, what with a third of the price for the same retail value, but for me it's very disappointing to see they're going the Necromunda way.
It's a bit disappointing, but if any kit can get away with only 5 poses it's probably rank and file HH marines. They're not unique distinctive designs like most Necromunda models, they don't have robes/coats that stand out when there's duplicates, it's literally just the pose. We've already seen pictures of the finished models and I didn't even notice there were only 5 poses.
the one thing that bothers me and I still find kind of strange is how wide spread the MkVI legs are
older models were made to fit 25mm base and standing with the legs spread for more stability
with the change to 32mm bases this looked less stupid as the feet were not overlapping the edge of the base
and now the MkVI are just scaled up so that the feet are on the edge of the base again
just like someone used the old sculpts and typed "print at 130%"
June 11th with a 2 week preorder window makes sense as GW tend to put these big ticket releases at the end/start of the month period when most people are getting paid.
Ash from GMG points out a couple of useful tidbits like:
Plastic Contemptor pictured with assault cannon...so points to a probable future assault cannon and close combat sprue.
The weapon sprue for the Spartan being separate with unused bits probably for a future Land Raider/ Proteus release.
Personally I see that all of the sprues have 2021 printed on them, so more fuel to the fire that this is delayed from last year?
Albertorius wrote: So, the Mark VIs are a single sprue plus a small options one instead of the triple ones used for the Mark IIIs and IVs.
I'm sure that for them it will be very good, what with a third of the price for the same retail value, but for me it's very disappointing to see they're going the Necromunda way.
It's a bit disappointing, but if any kit can get away with only 5 poses it's probably rank and file HH marines. They're not unique distinctive designs like most Necromunda models, they don't have robes/coats that stand out when there's duplicates, it's literally just the pose. We've already seen pictures of the finished models and I didn't even notice there were only 5 poses.
Dunno, it would be better to have ten poses, maybe a couple of running ones, bending the knee... you know, variation.
We got five poses, and two of those are basically identical to other two.
Albertorius wrote: So, the Mark VIs are a single sprue plus a small options one instead of the triple ones used for the Mark IIIs and IVs.
I'm sure that for them it will be very good, what with a third of the price for the same retail value, but for me it's very disappointing to see they're going the Necromunda way.
It's a bit disappointing, but if any kit can get away with only 5 poses it's probably rank and file HH marines. They're not unique distinctive designs like most Necromunda models, they don't have robes/coats that stand out when there's duplicates, it's literally just the pose. We've already seen pictures of the finished models and I didn't even notice there were only 5 poses.
Dunno, it would be better to have ten poses, maybe a couple of running ones, bending the knee... you know, variation.
We got five poses, and two of those are basically identical to other two.
Running poses and knee poses are very identifiable with duplicate poses though, so if they start mixing those sorts of poses in then even with 10 poses the duplicates would be obvious.
As an example, look at DKoK, there's 2 kneeling poses and 2 running poses per 10 models. They look good in a squad of 10, but once you start having multiple squads those models stick out like sore thumbs as duplicates.
I don't really mind the "slowly advancing" vibe, leave the running poses for another kit of melee focused models, and the kneeling poses to some specialist models.
That said I'd rather have 10 poses than 5 of course, but I'm also not too annoyed given that I've seen the models and didn't even notice until Stahly posted the sprue pics (unlike the Ork Boyz where the duplicate poses were blatantly obvious well before seeing the sprues). Maybe now that I know it'll be something that draws my attention, dunno.
ListenToMeWarriors wrote: Personally I see that all of the sprues have 2021 printed on them, so more fuel to the fire that this is delayed from last year?
Possible, but not definitive - from memory, the dates on the sprues are the year that they finished being designed, so a 2021 sprue being released in 2022 isn't necessarily delayed, they just finished designing it that year. There have been kits designed and held for release for years - I think Crowe is a recent example.
Albertorius wrote: So, the Mark VIs are a single sprue plus a small options one instead of the triple ones used for the Mark IIIs and IVs.
I'm sure that for them it will be very good, what with a third of the price for the same retail value, but for me it's very disappointing to see they're going the Necromunda way.
It's a bit disappointing, but if any kit can get away with only 5 poses it's probably rank and file HH marines. They're not unique distinctive designs like most Necromunda models, they don't have robes/coats that stand out when there's duplicates, it's literally just the pose. We've already seen pictures of the finished models and I didn't even notice there were only 5 poses.
Conversely, I noticed pretty much immediately that there were only 5 poses. And 3 of them are basically the same anyway.
Albertorius wrote: So, the Mark VIs are a single sprue plus a small options one instead of the triple ones used for the Mark IIIs and IVs.
I'm sure that for them it will be very good, what with a third of the price for the same retail value, but for me it's very disappointing to see they're going the Necromunda way.
It's a bit disappointing, but if any kit can get away with only 5 poses it's probably rank and file HH marines. They're not unique distinctive designs like most Necromunda models, they don't have robes/coats that stand out when there's duplicates, it's literally just the pose. We've already seen pictures of the finished models and I didn't even notice there were only 5 poses.
Conversely, I noticed pretty much immediately that there were only 5 poses. And 3 of them are basically the same anyway.
Yeah, it was immediately obvious to me too that the poses were limited. I just didn't realise exactly how limited.
I understand how the business world works and that for GW the most important thing is profit, but I think that they've gone too far here. They have severely limited the kit purely to increase the profit margin.
I'm understanding the price point of the bundle more now, it's not as good value as it first seemed.
I don't want to come across as yet another of Dakka's eternal moaners, so I won't say an more on the subject. I've said my piece.
tneva82 wrote: People wanted "dynamic" poses, gw provides. Flip side being less poses
Nothing stopped them from making sprues of 10 dudes, instead of 5. In fact, given how basic Marine squads are bigger in HH, it would be a much better idea.
ImAGeek wrote: Yeah I don’t like that. Could have easily gone with 10 unique poses for the same sprues as the other Mks. (Although I don’t agree about the space the split shoulder pads take up, it’s barely more than the normal ones and the space you’d save wouldn’t offer anything meaningful).
They'll all be unique and also highly flexible at the same time. There's no such thing as mono-pose.
tneva82 wrote: People wanted "dynamic" poses, gw provides. Flip side being less poses
That's clearly false, as every time I've mentioned that in the past I've been screamed at for not knowing what I was talking about. Therefore it cannot possibly be true.
The poses are dynamic, and there are lots of them. Mono-pose is a myth put out there by GW haters. Nothing more.
Albertorius wrote: So, the Mark VIs are a single sprue plus a small options one instead of the triple ones used for the Mark IIIs and IVs.
I'm sure that for them it will be very good, what with a third of the price for the same retail value, but for me it's very disappointing to see they're going the Necromunda way.
It's a bit disappointing, but if any kit can get away with only 5 poses it's probably rank and file HH marines. They're not unique distinctive designs like most Necromunda models, they don't have robes/coats that stand out when there's duplicates, it's literally just the pose. We've already seen pictures of the finished models and I didn't even notice there were only 5 poses.
Conversely, I noticed pretty much immediately that there were only 5 poses. And 3 of them are basically the same anyway.
Yeah, it was immediately obvious to me too that the poses were limited. I just didn't realise exactly how limited.
Fair enough, maybe I wasn't as observant this time as I normally am, maybe too focused on the shoulder pad seams, lol.
Is there a good pic somewhere that shows the models lined up? I'm seeing walking left foot forward, walking right foot forward, wide standing stance 1, wide standing stance 2, and wide standing stance with right heel raised, I guess that's it.
But still, maybe I'll find it annoying as time goes on now that I've noticed it, but in general it's less egregious to me that there's only a few options for what is not supposed to be a dynamic pose.
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tneva82 wrote: People wanted "dynamic" poses, gw provides. Flip side being less poses
Err, these aren't really what I'd call dynamic posed models, lol.
Either way this is not really a "flip side" though, 5 poses seems below par for GW these days, DKoK had 10 poses, Ork Boyz had 10 poses (albeit they were terrible), Novitiates had 10 poses, Eldar Guardians had 10 poses. I don't follow all GW releases so maybe some 10 man kits have come out with only 5 poses, but the ones I bothered to check were all 10 poses.
Albertorius wrote: So, the Mark VIs are a single sprue plus a small options one instead of the triple ones used for the Mark IIIs and IVs.
I'm sure that for them it will be very good, what with a third of the price for the same retail value, but for me it's very disappointing to see they're going the Necromunda way.
It's a bit disappointing, but if any kit can get away with only 5 poses it's probably rank and file HH marines. They're not unique distinctive designs like most Necromunda models, they don't have robes/coats that stand out when there's duplicates, it's literally just the pose. We've already seen pictures of the finished models and I didn't even notice there were only 5 poses.
Conversely, I noticed pretty much immediately that there were only 5 poses. And 3 of them are basically the same anyway.
Yeah, it was immediately obvious to me too that the poses were limited. I just didn't realise exactly how limited.
Fair enough, maybe I wasn't as observant this time as I normally am, maybe too focused on the shoulder pad seams, lol.
Is there a good pic somewhere that shows the models lined up? I'm seeing walking left foot forward, walking right foot forward, wide standing stance 1, wide standing stance 2, and wide standing stance with right heel raised, I guess that's it.
But still, maybe I'll find it annoying as time goes on now that I've noticed it, but in general it's less egregious to me that there's only a few options for what is not supposed to be a dynamic pose.
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tneva82 wrote: People wanted "dynamic" poses, gw provides. Flip side being less poses
Err, these aren't really what I'd call dynamic posed models, lol.
Either way this is not really a "flip side" though, 5 poses seems below par for GW these days, DKoK had 10 poses, Ork Boyz had 10 poses (albeit they were terrible), Novitiates had 10 poses, Eldar Guardians had 10 poses. I don't follow all GW releases so maybe some 10 man kits have come out with only 5 poses, but the ones I bothered to check were all 10 poses.
Albertorius wrote: So, the Mark VIs are a single sprue plus a small options one instead of the triple ones used for the Mark IIIs and IVs.
I'm sure that for them it will be very good, what with a third of the price for the same retail value, but for me it's very disappointing to see they're going the Necromunda way.
It's a bit disappointing, but if any kit can get away with only 5 poses it's probably rank and file HH marines. They're not unique distinctive designs like most Necromunda models, they don't have robes/coats that stand out when there's duplicates, it's literally just the pose. We've already seen pictures of the finished models and I didn't even notice there were only 5 poses.
Conversely, I noticed pretty much immediately that there were only 5 poses. And 3 of them are basically the same anyway.
Yeah, it was immediately obvious to me too that the poses were limited. I just didn't realise exactly how limited.
Fair enough, maybe I wasn't as observant this time as I normally am, maybe too focused on the shoulder pad seams, lol.
Is there a good pic somewhere that shows the models lined up? I'm seeing walking left foot forward, walking right foot forward, wide standing stance 1, wide standing stance 2, and wide standing stance with right heel raised, I guess that's it.
But still, maybe I'll find it annoying as time goes on now that I've noticed it, but in general it's less egregious to me that there's only a few options for what is not supposed to be a dynamic pose.
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tneva82 wrote: People wanted "dynamic" poses, gw provides. Flip side being less poses
Err, these aren't really what I'd call dynamic posed models, lol.
Either way this is not really a "flip side" though, 5 poses seems below par for GW these days, DKoK had 10 poses, Ork Boyz had 10 poses (albeit they were terrible), Novitiates had 10 poses, Eldar Guardians had 10 poses. I don't follow all GW releases so maybe some 10 man kits have come out with only 5 poses, but the ones I bothered to check were all 10 poses.
Thanks, it does stand out to me a bit more with them all displayed at a higher resolution side by side like that. But still, I'm not hating it anywhere near as much as I hated the Orks.
It's kinda odd that they didn't mix up the "wide stance" poses a bit more, they could have at least had one leaning on the front foot, one leaning on the back foot and another more balanced, would have given a bit more variety. I don't mind there's no running poses and no kneeling poses, as I kind of just picture these models just slowly advancing across the battlefield laying down suppressing fire as they go.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I guess an NDA has dropped because YouTubers are starting to put up videos....
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Thanks, it does stand out to me a bit more with them all displayed at a higher resolution side by side like that. But still, I'm not hating it anywhere near as much as I hated the Orks.
Yeah, I mean, at least these ones are much more neutral.
Considering the heads and arms are different, the only multipose feature we're missing is being able to pivot the torso, no?
Otherwise we're seeing the same "this one has a turned head" and "this one has the bolter held lower down, this one has the bolter held higher" that we've always seen with tacticals?
It's a bit disappointing, but if any kit can get away with only 5 poses it's probably rank and file HH marines. They're not unique distinctive designs like most Necromunda models, they don't have robes/coats that stand out when there's duplicates, it's literally just the pose. We've already seen pictures of the finished models and I didn't even notice there were only 5 poses.
I'm inclined to agree, especially as we still have options like head and shoulder pad swaps to bring us variety that way. I'm curious to see if older Firstborn arms will fit on MkVIs as well. They look like they might, but it could be the change in scale would make them just noticeably odd, like can sometimes happen using Firstborn parts with Primaris torsos.
I am curious to see if entire visually satisfying armies of MkVIs are feasible. Based on what I've seen so far, I'm edging towards a "not really".
JWBS wrote: The torso twist is the holy grail of ful!lEy cust0mIsAbblle! appreciators. But essentially, yes.
Honestly, here the lack of body variety (5 poses, but 2 so similar to others that it's esentially 3 poses) is a much bigger problem, which they would have avoided had they allocated the same resources to them as they did to past marine releases.
They're simply doing stuff on the cheapo, now.
10 "single pose" bodies with a mite more variation would have been more than enough.
Finally we see the sprues! I am relieved, all of the 5 beakies have one leg cut off from the torso. This means that there should be some chance for slightly converting the poses further for more variety. Also, that zorgadork video demonstrates that these should be easy enough to kitbash with existing HH bits
The Spartan indeed looks massive, and the Contemptor is looking a modeler's dream! Think I'm going to have to get this box.. Hopefully the euro price will still be a bargain.
Albertorius wrote: Well, well, well... it seems I have my 15mm beakie needs covered already:
Spoiler:
Or some, at least...
Terrific! When GW drops the ball 3D-printers go BRRRRRRRRRRT!
Every time someone posts "3d-printers go Brrrrrt", GW sells another million dollars worth of plastic miniatures. Its the quietest "brrrt" I've (n)ever heard, because the market overwhelmingly continues to not give a feth about 3d printing as an alternative to GWs plastics despite 3d printing evangelists insistence that 3d printing matters.
JWBS wrote: Bodies have always been the same though Albertorius. Don't make me tap the "classic tacticals" sign again! Okay I'm gonna do it anyway
Wait, i've seen this before. Next HBMC is going to post his dumb "7 stages of grief" thing or whatever it is and say "you are here", and then we are going to go into how its good actually that all the super-highly-posable classic tactical marines that always end up having the exact same pose as eachother are better, actually, because they all blend in together as a unit on the table, whereas the new dynamically monopose marines are really bad because they "stand out".
JWBS wrote: Bodies have always been the same though Albertorius. Don't make me tap the "classic tacticals" sign again! Okay I'm gonna do it anyway
I don't fully disagree. As long as heads are fully posable and arms are interchangeable with bodies, the supposed "torso twist" isn't necessary. Intercessors prove that despite Primaris haters saying otherwise.
JWBS wrote: Bodies have always been the same though Albertorius. Don't make me tap the "classic tacticals" sign again! Okay I'm gonna do it anyway
Spoiler:
Very much agree to disagree, there.
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chaos0xomega wrote: Every time someone posts "3d-printers go Brrrrrt", GW sells another million dollars worth of plastic miniatures. Its the quietest "brrrt" I've (n)ever heard, because the market overwhelmingly continues to not give a feth about 3d printing as an alternative to GWs plastics despite 3d printing evangelists insistence that 3d printing matters.
Hey, if it bothers you so much you can simply ignore it, mate.
Wait, i've seen this before. Next HBMC is going to post his dumb "7 stages of grief" thing or whatever it is and say "you are here", and then we are going to go into how its good actually that all the super-highly-posable classic tactical marines that always end up having the exact same pose as eachother are better, actually, because they all blend in together as a unit on the table, whereas the new dynamically monopose marines are really bad because they "stand out".
The new "dynamic" aren't. It's more the fact there's really 3 different ones than anything else.
Wait, i've seen this before. Next HBMC is going to post his dumb "7 stages of grief" thing or whatever it is and say "you are here", and then we are going to go into how its good actually that all the super-highly-posable classic tactical marines that always end up having the exact same pose as eachother are better, actually, because they all blend in together as a unit on the table, whereas the new dynamically monopose marines are really bad because they "stand out".
This kind of posturing to fan up the conflict is doing more harm to this forum than HBMC ever could. I wish both of you would just move on.
Agamemnon2 wrote: I am curious to see if entire visually satisfying armies of MkVIs are feasible. Based on what I've seen so far, I'm edging towards a "not really".
I'm not generally a fan of beaky marines specifically, but I kind of like the pictures we've seen so far of armies of them. I kind of like the simplicity of them, there's not a lot going on which I think can look good on a horde.
If I buy them, I'll head swap them and maybe shoulder swap them, haven't decided yet if I'm going to go ahead with that though, if I don't head swap them I'm not going to bother buying them because, yeah, not a fan of the beaky heads.
Once they release the assault marines to mix some runners into squads, and (presumably) a more extensive tactical kit it will be great. Personally I think the variety on display here is wholly acceptable for a value kit.
JWBS wrote: Once they release the assault marines to mix some runners into squads, and (presumably) a more extensive tactical kit it will be great. Personally I think the variety on display here is wholly acceptable for a value kit.
When you say "value kit", have we had any news suggesting a price for the individual boxed sets?
JWBS wrote: Once they release the assault marines to mix some runners into squads, and (presumably) a more extensive tactical kit it will be great. Personally I think the variety on display here is wholly acceptable for a value kit.
Maybe I've missed some info here, what makes you think that the MKVI kit in the large box set isn't the full MKVI kit that will be released separately?
JWBS wrote: Once they release the assault marines to mix some runners into squads, and (presumably) a more extensive tactical kit it will be great. Personally I think the variety on display here is wholly acceptable for a value kit.
Why would they release a "more extensive tactical kit"? Aren't Heresy tac-squads just 10-20 bolter lads, with options for sergeant, vox and legion icon fella?
Agamemnon2 wrote: I am curious to see if entire visually satisfying armies of MkVIs are feasible. Based on what I've seen so far, I'm edging towards a "not really".
I'm not generally a fan of beaky marines specifically, but I kind of like the pictures we've seen so far of armies of them. I kind of like the simplicity of them, there's not a lot going on which I think can look good on a horde.
If I buy them, I'll head swap them and maybe shoulder swap them, haven't decided yet if I'm going to go ahead with that though, if I don't head swap them I'm not going to bother buying them because, yeah, not a fan of the beaky heads.
Y do like the heads, personally, but the shoulders are gonna get swapped for sure.
This could be all there is, as others have stated so far this looks like Necro / BB setup. However when you look at the Primaris stuff there's always been a few different grades of kit released at different intervals, ranging from easy build to full kit, with stuff inbetween (example, Indomitus assault intercessors, eventual full assault intercessor kit, alternate pose intercessors for paint sets and "Start 40k" magazine etc).
JWBS wrote: Once they release the assault marines to mix some runners into squads, and (presumably) a more extensive tactical kit it will be great. Personally I think the variety on display here is wholly acceptable for a value kit.
Why would they release a "more extensive tactical kit"? Aren't Heresy tac-squads just 10-20 bolter lads, with options for sergeant, vox and legion icon fella?
Pretty much, I think its why the weapons are coming in a different box so you can't do them "wrong" out the starter without the extra spend (I think Calth did it to annoy the HH rivet counters)
Every time someone posts "3d-printers go Brrrrrt", GW sells another million dollars worth of plastic miniatures. Its the quietest "brrrt" I've (n)ever heard, because the market overwhelmingly continues to not give a feth about 3d printing as an alternative to GWs plastics despite 3d printing evangelists insistence that 3d printing matters.
Someone once said that 3D printing is just Crossfit for Warhammer fans, and they were dead right.
When you say "value kit", have we had any news suggesting a price for the individual boxed sets?
Not that I've seen, and given how often price rumours tend to be wrong I'm not sure I'd trust any such news until the kits are officially announced.
However for speculation's sake; keeping in mind that 40k space marine kits have been cheaper than other faction equivalents in the past, the mass-production benefit of these HH models means GW can accommodate more discount than usual. If a squad of ten usually cost say £30, then £50/55 for twenty seems plausible.
Calth/Prospero made the HH armour the same loadouts as the 40k Tacticals with some special and heavy weapons so they were more HH Veterans than HH Tacticals.
The difference with the new one is that out of the gate it's designed to be a HH unit rather than an alternate 40k kit. Calth/Prospero had the effect on our group of all the new starts building what they saw on the box so most of them ended up as Veterans, with the players using the Pride of the Legion RoW and got bored really fast because everyone used the same things all the time. Some people did think before they built but most dropped out because they didn't want to rebuy their MkIV just to make Bolter dudes.
I see this as less a case of "We cannot live with 5 torsos" and more a case of "GW are swimming in millions of revenue and this is the basic box for his new big line , they could have offered us a better box for the price they are gonna ask"
40 Marines, 10 Terminators, 2 Characters, a fully posable Contemptor, and a plastic Spartan all of which can be used by one person in one army for under £200, and you think there should have been more?
Galas wrote: I see this as less a case of "We cannot live with 5 torsos" and more a case of "GW are swimming in millions of revenue and this is the basic box for his new big line , they could have offered us a better box for the price they are gonna ask"
And we know, because they have, in other occasions.
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Gert wrote: 40 Marines, 10 Terminators, 2 Characters, a fully posable Contemptor, and a plastic Spartan for under £200 and you want more?
False equivalence. Would you like all that as single pose, three part push fits? People can actually like things, or deals, and still be able to point out the things they don't like out of it. Also yes, yes I do. If you think GW is losing money with that "deal", well, I have a bridge here...
We know for certain it's below £200, most seem happy with the value. Compare it to Indomitus (which itself was universally well recieved iirc) and it seems like an upward trajectory in terms of value provided.
Galas wrote: I see this as less a case of "We cannot live with 5 torsos" and more a case of "GW are swimming in millions of revenue and this is the basic box for his new big line , they could have offered us a better box for the price they are gonna ask"
Yeah, pretty much. Most infantry boxes nowadays come with 10 distinct body sculpts, because it's a box of 10 dudes. Sometimes it's two copies of 10 poses if it's a box of 20 (and that still happens sometimes). To make just 5 sculpts for a box of 20 comes off as a bit cheap and lazy.
Indomitus, Dominion and every other 40k/AoS/Fantasy starter set weren't able to be used as one army (with possibly the exception of Dark Vengeance if you could be bothered converting the Dark Angels to CSM or Fallen). The HH box can be used by one person or split between any number of people.
But I'm not talking about the HH box. I'm talking about the MKIV marines box that will be in production much longer than the HH launch box. Betrayal at Calth was a great box. And the plastic contemptor sucked. One thing did not make the other false.
honestly. I like this. the basic models are pretty standard in their poses which is good. 10 UNIQUE poses would have been a problem as we would, inevitably, have gotten that one pose that stood out. which would be a problem as we're not going to have 5 of these models on the board. we're not going to have ten, we're going to have 30+ of these suckers on the board. (given we know special and heavy weapons upgrade sprues are coming that means all our infantry will basicly be one kit) so yeah thank god the poses are "neutral"
Galas wrote: But I'm not talking about the HH box. I'm talking about the MKIV marines box that will be in production much longer than the HH launch box. Betrayal at Calth was a great box. And the plastic contemptor sucked. One thing did not make the other false.
Exactly. And if someone doesn't buy the HH deal box, and still buy a box of beakies, for some reason they don't magically get better.
Galas wrote: But I'm not talking about the HH box. I'm talking about the MKIV marines box that will be in production much longer than the HH launch box. Betrayal at Calth was a great box. And the plastic contemptor sucked. One thing did not make the other false.
And the MkIV Marines that came in Calth have the same "dynamic" poses as regular 40k Tacticals, which is to say none.
Also, can we just give this a rest, please? Nobody said everyone had to like the new models but every single time a painting tutorial goes up or someone talks about the new models people just jump in with the same thing over and over. We get it you don't like the models, stop whinging about it for god's sake. Find something else to do and save the rest of us from your tedious complaining. 160 pages in the thread and I would put large sums of money on a solid 10-20% being the same argument about the stupid bloody poses.
Apologies if it's been said but for me it's not just that it's 5 torsos for tactical squad guys, it's actually 5 torsos for all the power armoured guys in your army full stop since heavy and support squads are just gun sprues. Gonna be pretty samey.
BrianDavion wrote: honestly. I like this. the basic models are pretty standard in their poses which is good. 10 UNIQUE poses would have been a problem as we would, inevitably, have gotten that one pose that stood out. which would be a problem as we're not going to have 5 of these models on the board. we're not going to have ten, we're going to have 30+ of these suckers on the board. (given we know special and heavy weapons upgrade sprues are coming that means all our infantry will basicly be one kit) so yeah thank god the poses are "neutral"
I just think we could have got 10 neutral poses. Or at least 5, we basically have 3 in this kit. And for all the talk of them being neutral and therefore not standing out, the repeated poses/sameyness stood out to me straight away when the photos were shown. So I’d rather have had more variety.
The guys at the GW design studio must be loving this thread.
"What's the verdict on the new box? Long awaited HH in plastic, a dream come true for these nerds! And a metric ton of sprues included in the launch box too, with some objectively impressive centrepiece models thrown in there. I bet these guys can't believe their luck!"
JWBS wrote: The guys at the GW design studio must be loving this thread.
"What's the verdict on the new box? Long awaited HH in plastic, a dream come true for these nerds! And a metric ton of sprues included in the launch box too, with some objectively impressive centrepiece models thrown in there. I bet these guys can't believe their luck!"
"Err, seems to be mixed reviews boss"
Nobody from any company would go to dakka to do a review of customer reactions. A portion of the posters here complain as a hobby with no actual care about what they are complaining about. Some are not even GW customers, they just enjoy joining the fun. And another group just likes everything like a golden-throne retriever.
I think the only reason the box is priced the way it is, and we getting 40 tacticals in the box, is because those 40 tacs come in 8 identical sprues as opposed to two sets of 4 identical sprues.
chaos0xomega wrote: Wait, i've seen this before. Next HBMC is going to post his dumb "7 stages of grief" thing or whatever it is and say "you are here", and then we are going to go into how its good actually that all the super-highly-posable classic tactical marines that always end up having the exact same pose as eachother are better, actually, because they all blend in together as a unit on the table, whereas the new dynamically monopose marines are really bad because they "stand out".
Nah dawg. I already said my piece: There's no such thing as mono-pose. You guys taught me that. These models are 100% as dynamic and posable as they've always been. Nothing has ever changed ever. GW design their minis to be as customisable now as they were back in the day and they're even more dynamic now as well... somehow.
JWBS wrote: The guys at the GW design studio must be loving this thread.
"What's the verdict on the new box? Long awaited HH in plastic, a dream come true for these nerds! And a metric ton of sprues included in the launch box too, with some objectively impressive centrepiece models thrown in there. I bet these guys can't believe their luck!"
"Err, seems to be mixed reviews boss"
Pretty sure it's what they were expecting. It's almost as if they were always checking what their audience is willing to "allow".
JWBS wrote: The guys at the GW design studio must be loving this thread.
"What's the verdict on the new box? Long awaited HH in plastic, a dream come true for these nerds! And a metric ton of sprues included in the launch box too, with some objectively impressive centrepiece models thrown in there. I bet these guys can't believe their luck!"
"Err, seems to be mixed reviews boss"
Nobody from any company would go to dakka to do a review of customer reactions. A portion of the posters here complain as a hobby with no actual care about what they are complaining about. Some are not even GW customers, they just enjoy joining the fun. And another group just likes everything like a golden-throne retriever.
Terrible terrible place for market research.
I guarantee that there's GW guys reading this site. I believe it's the biggest around these days. B&C is a minnow now compared to Dakka. CMON is literally dead. There's maybe reddit as an alternative, fragmented as it is.
Galas wrote: I see this as less a case of "We cannot live with 5 torsos" and more a case of "GW are swimming in millions of revenue and this is the basic box for his new big line , they could have offered us a better box for the price they are gonna ask"
Oh, I don't. This is just the usual axes being ground, regardless of whether there's any basis or not.
Same with the usual pitch for 3D printing in an unrelated thread. It never matters, because its just airing grievances... over and over and over again.
JWBS wrote: The guys at the GW design studio must be loving this thread.
"What's the verdict on the new box? Long awaited HH in plastic, a dream come true for these nerds! And a metric ton of sprues included in the launch box too, with some objectively impressive centrepiece models thrown in there. I bet these guys can't believe their luck!"
"Err, seems to be mixed reviews boss"
Bah. Its never a review. Its just the usual kneejerk in advance. If GW doesn't know to ignore that by now (and factor in all the complainers as sales), they're absolutely not paying attention to dakka threads..
I'm just saying, there's GW peeps here every day, zero doubt. Whether they give a toss what we say or not, whether they are here in their leisure time, they read the board.
I guarantee that there's GW guys reading this site. I believe it's the biggest around these days. B&C is a minnow now compared to Dakka. CMON is literally dead. There's maybe reddit as an alternative, fragmented as it is.
While you're probably right, I'll bet that none of the staff reading are the folks responsible for making the big decisions. Things like how many hours of tooling time are allocated to a given project, or how those hours get assigned to individual sprues.
It'll mostly be store staff looking for rumours on things GW hasn't told them yet, and the odd few studio staff trying to keep ahead of leaks.
Galas wrote: I see this as less a case of "We cannot live with 5 torsos" and more a case of "GW are swimming in millions of revenue and this is the basic box for his new big line , they could have offered us a better box for the price they are gonna ask"
I see this as "This is a Specialist Games product", and they generally get very limited amounts of sprues allotted to them each year, have to make do with smaller sprues, and therefore have to come up with creative ways to make a little go a long way. So it being a single sprue of 5 minis doesn't surprise me. Necromunda gangs and Blood Bowl teams are single sprues doubled up that, at the start, often had very limited options, but they are slowly adapting them and making them more modular as time goes on (like the Outcast sprues). Sure there are missteps along the way (Redemptionists), but there are just as many clever solutions as well (eg. two identical sprues making up a single Delaque psychic squid thingy).
Here they've got some very sprue intensive vehicles coming out, so have gone the small single-frame approach to their infantry models (and accessory sprues, which we can see are separate, and not attached in any way). This is a massive undertaking of resources for this group, but I imagine that there have been compromises along the way as a result that may impact other lines.
BrianDavion wrote: honestly. I like this. the basic models are pretty standard in their poses which is good. 10 UNIQUE poses would have been a problem as we would, inevitably, have gotten that one pose that stood out. which would be a problem as we're not going to have 5 of these models on the board. we're not going to have ten, we're going to have 30+ of these suckers on the board. (given we know special and heavy weapons upgrade sprues are coming that means all our infantry will basicly be one kit) so yeah thank god the poses are "neutral"
Honestly my take as well.
That said I do plan on doing some work on mine, but that's because what's a Night Lords army without some flayed skin and body parts dangling off models?
BrianDavion wrote: honestly. I like this. the basic models are pretty standard in their poses which is good. 10 UNIQUE poses would have been a problem as we would, inevitably, have gotten that one pose that stood out. which would be a problem as we're not going to have 5 of these models on the board. we're not going to have ten, we're going to have 30+ of these suckers on the board. (given we know special and heavy weapons upgrade sprues are coming that means all our infantry will basicly be one kit) so yeah thank god the poses are "neutral"
Honestly my take as well.
That said I do plan on doing some work on mine, but that's because what's a Night Lords army without some flayed skin and body parts dangling off models?
Galas wrote: I see this as less a case of "We cannot live with 5 torsos" and more a case of "GW are swimming in millions of revenue and this is the basic box for his new big line , they could have offered us a better box for the price they are gonna ask"
I see this as "This is a Specialist Games product", and they generally get very limited amounts of sprues allotted to them each year, have to make do with smaller sprues, and therefore have to come up with creative ways to make a little go a long way. So it being a single sprue of 5 minis doesn't surprise me. Necromunda gangs and Blood Bowl teams are single sprues doubled up that, at the start, often had very limited options, but they are slowly adapting them and making them more modular as time goes on (like the Outcast sprues). Sure there are missteps along the way (Redemptionists), but there are just as many clever solutions as well (eg. two identical sprues making up a single Delaque psychic squid thingy).
Here they've got some very sprue intensive vehicles coming out, so have gone the small single-frame approach to their infantry models (and accessory sprues, which we can see are separate, and not attached in any way). This is a massive undertaking of resources for this group, but I imagine that there have been compromises along the way as a result that may impact other lines.
Very well said.
Every release is a series of compromises to keep it under budget and out on time. We don't always have to like those compromises, but they will always be a factor to what the final release looks like. It's why we got split shoulder pads over ones cast via sliding mold for example.
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