Spoletta wrote: For tyranids, if they tie the stratagems with the synapse, i'm a happy bug player.
Can you imagine? Shadow in the warp (1 CP) : You can use this stratagem when an enemy psyker tries to manifest a power while within 18" of a model with the synapse keyword, before he rolls the dice. The psyker suffers a penalty of -3 to the roll to manifest that single power.
I'd hope that the Shadow in the Warp still exists passively like that anyway. Having the activate it is like saying you need to expend CPs to use Culexus Assassin abilities or bring in marine drop pods.
Tyranid stratagems should be things like 1CP to regenerate D3 wounds or 2CP to summon a Trygon tunnel anywhere on the board.
Spoletta wrote: For tyranids, if they tie the stratagems with the synapse, i'm a happy bug player.
Can you imagine? Shadow in the warp (1 CP) : You can use this stratagem when an enemy psyker tries to manifest a power while within 18" of a model with the synapse keyword, before he rolls the dice. The psyker suffers a penalty of -3 to the roll to manifest that single power.
I'd hope that the Shadow in the Warp still exists passively like that anyway. Having the activate it is like saying you need to expend CPs to use Culexus Assassin abilities or bring in marine drop pods.
Tyranid stratagems should be things like 1CP to regenerate D3 wounds or 2CP to summon a Trygon tunnel anywhere on the board.
2CP All units in synapse automatically pass Morale tests.
Spoletta wrote: For tyranids, if they tie the stratagems with the synapse, i'm a happy bug player.
Can you imagine? Shadow in the warp (1 CP) : You can use this stratagem when an enemy psyker tries to manifest a power while within 18" of a model with the synapse keyword, before he rolls the dice. The psyker suffers a penalty of -3 to the roll to manifest that single power.
I'd hope that the Shadow in the Warp still exists passively like that anyway. Having the activate it is like saying you need to expend CPs to use Culexus Assassin abilities or bring in marine drop pods.
Tyranid stratagems should be things like 1CP to regenerate D3 wounds or 2CP to summon a Trygon tunnel anywhere on the board.
2CP All units in synapse automatically pass Morale tests.
What is meant with the "Insane Bravery" stratagem?
How does a unit "automatically pass a single Morale test"?
Do you still roll 2d6 and compare with LD value? I thought the new system was roll 1d6 and add number of casualties and compare with LD value.
What is there to "pass"?
If you have taken 10 casualties and have a LD of, say, 7. Then no matter what you would roll you would still lose more models. Does "passing" mean you dont remove additional models?
These are all great ideas. What's more, I suddenly realise how vox casters could work for the IG now. Spend x CPs, all infantry units with a vox caster do Y...awesome.
If you have taken 10 casualties and have a LD of, say, 7. Then no matter what you would roll you would still lose more models. Does "passing" mean you dont remove additional models?
I guess so. In the case you described the unit automatically fails their morale test. Passing probably refers to not losing any models.
Hey, something I can agree with as actually being tactical :V
This really could add a lot of flavor to armies, although I hope not every army wide special rule uses command point. It's be weird if I need to use them to use the ork WAAAAGH!
I am curious what "morale test" means in this context. Has battleshock ever been mentioned as a a Morale Test before, since I just remember seeing "battleshock test"
I am curious what "morale test" means in this context. Has battleshock ever been mentioned as a a Morale Test before, since I just remember seeing "battleshock test"
It's actually the reverse. They have only ever mentioned Morale tests in the context of 8th Ed. Battleshock is what they call it in AoS.
Pure speculation:
It would be interesting if units embarked upon an open-topped vehicle counted as being on the board, but in cover so that they could all fire normally but be targeted independently from the vehicle. I don't imagine rounds hitting the sideboard of an ork trukk would do much damage to the trukk itself, but might give the orks riding in it some cover. I'm not that familiar with the open topped vehicles of other armies.
davou wrote: yeah, Id imagine a pass is not losing models, and a fail is anything that cause one or more additional wounds.
Also, the morale teaser has a line in it about the Eldar Wraith fighter causing an additional casualty "on a failed test" so it does look more like passing does mean not losing models.
It would be nice if you could regain models lost this way by volunteering to take a morale test when you didn't have to. Like, your squad finds enough cover to hunker down for a while and rally a few of the shaken members that ran off/sat down and cried/started staring at the sun.
If you do, you regain one model lost to prev. failed morale checks for each point you pass by. Of course if your ld is still low enough (e.g. if you're a grot, or you're standing next to a Culexus) you might still fail and lose more dudes.
Maybe a scenario rule?
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: Pure speculation:
It would be interesting if units embarked upon an open-topped vehicle counted as being on the board, but in cover so that they could all fire normally but be targeted independently from the vehicle. I don't imagine rounds hitting the sideboard of an ork trukk would do much damage to the trukk itself, but might give the orks riding in it some cover. I'm not that familiar with the open topped vehicles of other armies.
Ugh, Dark Eldar rely very heavily on their vehicles for survival.
I can see Open Topped allowing squads to assault on a turn after their transport moved, whereas enclosed will have to remain stationary before disembarking.
Combined with the general increase in durability, that could really help DE
Hmm, yeah. I can see them just doing away with open-topped entirely, and the advantage of open-topped vehicles will likely be in their increased movement and reduced cost relative to more armored vehicles.
Yeah, open topped was only necessary whilst vehicles didn't have a toughness value or save and needed something to make them more vulnerable to a fullly armoured version.
There is alot of great potential with these Stratagems! I like the idea of taking back control, though having to be careful on where to spend the command points.
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS, thanks to the mod who updated the title in my absence, I was more dead to the world than CSM are dead to the Imperium.
Traitors gonna hate, Rippys gotta sleep.
Rippy wrote: PS, thanks to the mod who updated the title in my absence, I was more dead to the world than CSM are dead to the Imperium.
Traitors gonna hate, Rippys gotta sleep.
rollawaythestone wrote: Hmm, yeah. I can see them just doing away with open-topped entirely, and the advantage of open-topped vehicles will likely be in their increased movement and reduced cost relative to more armored vehicles.
Yeah, but neither of those things are tied to the open topped distinction. They are traits that vehicles that are opened topped tend to have, not part of the open topped package.
No reason to keep the distinction now, make them lower T, higher M and let more models shoot out of them. Same diff.
I love the inclusion of stratagems. They were my favourite part of the three Apoc games I've played and these while presumably not on par with the Apoc ones should bring the same awesomeness.
rollawaythestone wrote: Hmm, yeah. I can see them just doing away with open-topped entirely, and the advantage of open-topped vehicles will likely be in their increased movement and reduced cost relative to more armored vehicles.
Yeah, but neither of those things are tied to the open topped distinction. They are traits that vehicles that are opened topped tend to have, not part of the open topped package.
No reason to keep the distinction now, make them lower T, higher M and let more models shoot out of them. Same diff.
That's basically what I meant. They will just incorporate changes into the model profile to account for what each vehicle should do by modifying stats - transport capacity, firing points, movement, armor, toughness, etc - rather than bestowing them universal rule classification "open-topped".
RandyMcStab wrote: Lost re roill for twin linked? Having 2 guns instead is flat out better you know. Think of all those twin linked SM systems on Land Raiders, Preds, Talons, Razors etc, thats a big buff. Dreads can die to 2 meltas but they can't die from one now.
But now Dred may die from lasguns and autopistols! I never use a LR, Predators and Razors. And even this will not make me play them. I like dreadnoughts and tacticool guys in 3+.
Have you tried killing a Riptide in the current edition with Boltguns? Because killing a Dreadnoguht boltguns or lasguns is going to be almost as difficult.
My take on the weekend's news: Command points good. You can mitigate key weaknesses with them or a stroke of bad luck, but nothing game breaking. Using them to balance against unfluffy allies and such crap seems great.
Detachments.... huh. Mostly they just seem to require you to spend a certain amount of your points on troops. Unless the units are more standardized in size - so you can't minimize with 50 point troops las grunts and maximize with 500 point heavy support tank squadron, they are kind of pointless.
RandyMcStab wrote: Lost re roill for twin linked? Having 2 guns instead is flat out better you know. Think of all those twin linked SM systems on Land Raiders, Preds, Talons, Razors etc, thats a big buff. Dreads can die to 2 meltas but they can't die from one now.
But now Dred may die from lasguns and autopistols! I never use a LR, Predators and Razors. And even this will not make me play them. I like dreadnoughts and tacticool guys in 3+.
Have you tried killing a Riptide in the current edition with Boltguns? Because killing a Dreadnoguht boltguns or lasguns is going to be almost as difficult.
Depends.
Currently both need 180 hits to kill a Riptide, 270 if it has FNP.
A lasgun will need 144 hits to kill a Dreadnought, while a bolter will need half of that, 72 hits.
Essentially, a Dreadnought will be as durable as a the current Carnifex is to bolters, and two times more durable against lasguns.
Actually your more troop heavy option also required several of the other slots as well. Basically they keep you from min maxing by making you buy more of everything in order to have the option of larger pools of options.
I kind of like it honestly. If you want that many tanks your army expects you to have the support elements needed to protect them!
RandyMcStab wrote: Lost re roill for twin linked? Having 2 guns instead is flat out better you know. Think of all those twin linked SM systems on Land Raiders, Preds, Talons, Razors etc, thats a big buff. Dreads can die to 2 meltas but they can't die from one now.
But now Dred may die from lasguns and autopistols! I never use a LR, Predators and Razors. And even this will not make me play them. I like dreadnoughts and tacticool guys in 3+.
Have you tried killing a Riptide in the current edition with Boltguns?
Because killing a Dreadnoguht boltguns or lasguns is going to be almost as difficult.
Depends.
Currently both need 180 hits to kill a Riptide, 270 if it has FNP.
A lasgun will need 144 hits to kill a Dreadnought, while a bolter will need half of that, 72 hits.
Essentially, a Dreadnought will be as durable as a the current Carnifex is to bolters, and two times more durable against lasguns.
Dread has double the wounds of a carnifex, so twice the durability against boltguns.
Dreadnought has 8 wounds, Toughness 7, and a 3+ save.
A Boltgun is Strength 4, Damage 1, and AP 0
Wounding on 5+, so 3 hits to get a wound, and every 3 wounds should cause a failed armour save. So working backwards from the wounds we have 8 x 3 = 24. 24 x 3 = 72 However that is in a vacuum, where the Dreadnought isn't attacking back, but rather standing there getting shot.
It is still a waste to shoot the Dreadnought with that level of small arms fire, they are their to engage enemy infantry and support the large models of their force. Needing 72 hits is a lot of marines 118 at long range.
kestral wrote: My take on the weekend's news: Command points good. You can mitigate key weaknesses with them or a stroke of bad luck, but nothing game breaking. Using them to balance against unfluffy allies and such crap seems great.
Detachments.... huh. Mostly they just seem to require you to spend a certain amount of your points on troops. Unless the units are more standardized in size - so you can't minimize with 50 point troops las grunts and maximize with 500 point heavy support tank squadron, they are kind of pointless.
Unless we see a return to only troops being able to hold objectives and more objective/scenario focused win conditions (which I believe has been a thing in AOS) in which case you'll want good sized troops units in order to win games.
kestral wrote: My take on the weekend's news: Command points good. You can mitigate key weaknesses with them or a stroke of bad luck, but nothing game breaking. Using them to balance against unfluffy allies and such crap seems great.
Detachments.... huh. Mostly they just seem to require you to spend a certain amount of your points on troops. Unless the units are more standardized in size - so you can't minimize with 50 point troops las grunts and maximize with 500 point heavy support tank squadron, they are kind of pointless.
Unless we see a return to only troops being able to hold objectives and more objective/scenario focused win conditions (which I believe has been a thing in AOS) in which case you'll want good sized troops units in order to win games.
Yea, AoS doesn't much care, but AoS also doesn't have 'battlefield roles'.
I think the thing I am liking about the Command Points is that it gives a really solid base to add in army flavour, army list building considerations AND in game resource management.
I can see how with a few additions it could serve both to make for interesting narrative play options (have a kill team game running beside a big game where the kill team controlling an objective provides CP for use on the big board. Reinforcements are available at a CP cost, and moving up the board gives CPs to represent HQ supporting a breakthrough) but also to differentiate armies and or characters (Dark Eldar have a unique way to spend CPs, Ahriman allows CP to spent in one way while Kharn gives you something different).
Overall then my current response is that this is a really good base to build on. Simple enough that it should be easy to use at a basic level, enough flexibility to allow players to go mad with what they do with it.
Daedalus81 wrote: Yea, AoS doesn't much care, but AoS also doesn't have 'battlefield roles'.
Leader, Battleline, Artillery and Behemoths are the AoS equivalents of 'Battlefield Roles' (see page 107 of the General's Handbook).
Yes, but they make no real distinction on them other than list selection.
I take that back. They do have the hero point capture mission, but that's about it.
Or the scenarios like 'Three Places of Power', where at the end of each of your turns you score victory points for each place of power controlled by one of your HEROES. Overall, that's about all Battlefield Roles were used for in 40K as well.
I really like strategems. I hope there is some more choice to them in the main rules is all. If they do unique ones for factions it will be harder to balance.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Ok so Cp, does Creed generate 3CP every turn or what? TACTICAL GENIUS!!!
I thought that would have been an Lion El'Johnson rule. Maybe 1 CP every turn since nobody that I know of can do it. After all the Lion is a Primarch. But great idea non the less. But I thought I read somewhere that CPs can't be regenerated and once they are gone, they are gone. That true?
Gamgee wrote: I really like strategems. I hope there is some more choice to them in the main rules is all. If they do unique ones for factions it will be harder to balance.
I don't think it will be bad.
Reroll a one dice action : 1 CP Interrupt an action or reroll a 2 dice action: 2CP
Succeed at a 2 dice action for one unit : 3 CP Reroll a 2 dice action for up to 3 units: 4 CP Succeed at a 2 dice action for up to 3 units: 6 CP
He's probably free to generate as many CPs as he wants in Trazyn's museum. Gone, but never forgotten
Edit: I just hope that there aren't too many loopholes or exceptions that will let minmax, decidedly non-fluffy armies get too many CPs. Because then the point of having stratagems to reward the thematic armies that bring a little bit of everything would be utterly moot.
He's probably free to generate as many CPs as he wants in Trazyn's museum. Gone, but never forgotten
Edit: I just hope that there aren't too many loopholes or exceptions that will let minmax, decidedly non-fluffy armies get too many CPs. Because then the point of having stratagems to reward the thematic armies that bring a little bit of everything would be utterly moot.
If there are loop holes that people exploit, with a rule set that can easily be updated, it is in their best interest to not break them.
Finding a strong list that is working as intended will give tournament players (and general cheesebeards) a list that works better for longer potentially, as exploits will be patched out once a year.
casvalremdeikun wrote: No one is a better tactical savant than Commander Dante. He has literally seen just about everything.
What about the combined knowledge of billions of engagements by an entire race compressed into one being?
My man the Swarmlord.
No doubt he will give a decent amount of CP (2-3 maybe). Perhaps certain HQ that you designate as your general could actually add Strategems for you to use.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: Actually your more troop heavy option also required several of the other slots as well. Basically they keep you from min maxing by making you buy more of everything in order to have the option of larger pools of options.
I kind of like it honestly. If you want that many tanks your army expects you to have the support elements needed to protect them!
RandyMcStab wrote: Lost re roill for twin linked? Having 2 guns instead is flat out better you know. Think of all those twin linked SM systems on Land Raiders, Preds, Talons, Razors etc, thats a big buff. Dreads can die to 2 meltas but they can't die from one now.
But now Dred may die from lasguns and autopistols! I never use a LR, Predators and Razors. And even this will not make me play them. I like dreadnoughts and tacticool guys in 3+.
Have you tried killing a Riptide in the current edition with Boltguns?
Because killing a Dreadnoguht boltguns or lasguns is going to be almost as difficult.
Depends.
Currently both need 180 hits to kill a Riptide, 270 if it has FNP.
A lasgun will need 144 hits to kill a Dreadnought, while a bolter will need half of that, 72 hits.
Essentially, a Dreadnought will be as durable as a the current Carnifex is to bolters, and two times more durable against lasguns.
Dread has double the wounds of a carnifex, so twice the durability against boltguns.
Boltguns wound on a 5+, which is twice the wounds inflicted.
casvalremdeikun wrote: No one is a better tactical savant than Commander Dante. He has literally seen just about everything.
What about the combined knowledge of billions of engagements by an entire race compressed into one being?
My man the Swarmlord.
No doubt he will give a decent amount of CP (2-3 maybe). Perhaps certain HQ that you designate as your general could actually add Strategems for you to use.
If they are giving the oldest living space marine 1, I imagine that will be the norm.
casvalremdeikun wrote: No one is a better tactical savant than Commander Dante. He has literally seen just about everything.
That's even moreso the case for Bjorn who literally is the oldest remaining (non primarch) loyalist SM and an accomplished tactician as well as a former wolf lord. So I wouldn't expect Dante (or everyone else that isn't Girlyman or another primarch) to hand out more CPs (so 1 per turn).
Also, *cough*, Creed (who still has an available model so he will be getting rules) ;-).
Being the oldest marine... ehm... did that even count as alive? Don't make you a ultra tactician.
Besides, Bjorn is a little senile after all these years, he prefers to be in the front ripping the emperor enemies, don't thinking in tactics and all of that. He is a good wolf, and as a wolf he obeys his alpha, Russ.
Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka is an amazing tactical genius who gives +2d3 command points, but if you roll doubles consult the following chart:
1,1: Your opponent gets to smash your entire army. You are never allowed to play again.
2,2: Your opponent gets to punch you right in the face 1d6 times, and Ghazghkull is removed from play.
3,3: Your opponent gains control of Ghazghkull and his four Command Points.
4,4: You must play the game standing on one foot. If both your feet touch the ground at the same time you immediately forfeit.
5,5: You get all the command points, and you can use the same Stratagem more than once a turn, but Stratagems can only be used on units of Grots.
6,6: You win the game and also a new car!
Galas wrote: Being the oldest marine... ehm... did that even count as alive? Don't make you a ultra tactician.
Besides, Bjorn is a little senile after all these years, he prefers to be in the front ripping the emperor enemies, don't thinking in tactics and all of that. He is a good wolf, and as a wolf he obeys his alpha, Russ.
The Article GW Literally Just Published wrote:Some units are such capable and experienced commanders that they give you additional Command Points just by including them. Bjorn the Fell-Handed, for example, the oldest living(ish) loyalist Space Marine, gets you an extra one just for showing up!
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: Actually your more troop heavy option also required several of the other slots as well. Basically they keep you from min maxing by making you buy more of everything in order to have the option of larger pools of options.
I kind of like it honestly. If you want that many tanks your army expects you to have the support elements needed to protect them!
RandyMcStab wrote: Lost re roill for twin linked? Having 2 guns instead is flat out better you know. Think of all those twin linked SM systems on Land Raiders, Preds, Talons, Razors etc, thats a big buff. Dreads can die to 2 meltas but they can't die from one now.
But now Dred may die from lasguns and autopistols! I never use a LR, Predators and Razors. And even this will not make me play them. I like dreadnoughts and tacticool guys in 3+.
Have you tried killing a Riptide in the current edition with Boltguns?
Because killing a Dreadnoguht boltguns or lasguns is going to be almost as difficult.
Depends.
Currently both need 180 hits to kill a Riptide, 270 if it has FNP.
A lasgun will need 144 hits to kill a Dreadnought, while a bolter will need half of that, 72 hits.
Essentially, a Dreadnought will be as durable as a the current Carnifex is to bolters, and two times more durable against lasguns.
Dread has double the wounds of a carnifex, so twice the durability against boltguns.
Boltguns wound on a 5+, which is twice the wounds inflicted.
Phone auto corrected autoguns, my bad.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Considering how often I was able to get behind dreads and kill them with bolt guns last eddition I still feel it is an improvement.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka is an amazing tactical genius who gives +2d3 command points, but if you roll doubles consult the following chart:
1,1: Your opponent gets to smash your entire army. You are never allowed to play again.
2,2: Your opponent gets to punch you right in the face 1d6 times, and Ghazghkull is removed from play.
3,3: Your opponent gains control of Ghazghkull and his four Command Points.
4,4: You must play the game standing on one foot. If both your feet touch the ground at the same time you immediately forfeit.
5,5: You get all the command points, and you can use the same Stratagem more than once a turn, but Stratagems can only be used on units of Grots.
6,6: You win the game and also a new car!
If 8th were a reboot like AoS you can bet that something like that would be the official rules for the model
Galas wrote: Being the oldest marine... ehm... did that even count as alive? Don't make you a ultra tactician.
Besides, Bjorn is a little senile after all these years, he prefers to be in the front ripping the emperor enemies, don't thinking in tactics and all of that. He is a good wolf, and as a wolf he obeys his alpha, Russ.
The Article GW Literally Just Published wrote:Some units are such capable and experienced commanders that they give you additional Command Points just by including them. Bjorn the Fell-Handed, for example, the oldest living(ish) loyalist Space Marine, gets you an extra one just for showing up!
Sorry, I was just trying to be funny. I have failed to my task.
I'll commit now the old T'au tradition of seppukku to clean the dishonour I have brought to my Sept.
Future War Cultist wrote: Yeah, open topped was only necessary whilst vehicles didn't have a toughness value or save and needed something to make them more vulnerable to a fullly armoured version.
Funny how people think there wasn't way to differentiate survivability before...And not like open topped didn't have other functions as well oh no...Oh wait except it did.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: I wonder if we'll see a lot of what are currently re-rolls turned into "roll two dice and discard the lowest" in 8th?
Or, add +1 to the result.
Seriously, go look at AoS and see what GW did there.
I've read The General's Handbook and the free books for Orcs & Goblins, The Empire and Warriors of Chaos. I bought the Disciples of Tzeentch book but I've only read 2/3 of it. I got the Kharadron Overlords book but I've only skimmed it. I still haven't played a game. I've got an old WHFB Orcs & Goblins army, but I'm kind of waiting to see if GW decides to do anything with standard Orruks & Grots before taking the time to paint it up.
I like most of what I've read when it comes to AoS. Most of the pieces that they're bringing over to 8th sound like good ideas, and a few of the things I wasn't as sure about with AoS it sounds like they're not bringing over.
I'd expect both Farsight and Shadowsun to hand out at least one extra command point each, considering that they're both supposed to be tactical geniuses. Possibly also the generic Tau commander, but that seems less likely.
What's more likely is that generating an extra command point will be a warlord trait, or whatever the 8th edition equivalent is.
Future War Cultist wrote: Yeah, open topped was only necessary whilst vehicles didn't have a toughness value or save and needed something to make them more vulnerable to a fullly armoured version.
Funny how people think there wasn't way to differentiate survivability before...And not like open topped didn't have other functions as well oh no...Oh wait except it did.
If open topped allowed assaulting from vehicles at the cost of protection, it's not needed now as assaulting from transports is rumoured to be back. If it affected how many passengers could fire out, that can be a note on the datasheet. There's no need to have a separate unit type now.
JohnnyHell wrote: If open topped allowed assaulting from vehicles at the cost of protection, it's not needed now as assaulting from transports is rumoured to be back. If it affected how many passengers could fire out, that can be a note on the datasheet. There's no need to have a separate unit type now.
But is the assault from vehicles done in what way? Can you move vehicle, unload troops and charge? Do you suffer some penalties? If no to first and yes to 2nd open topped can still work.
If you can assault from all now i'd imagine they'll offset traditional open topped vehicles with a much better move characteristic.
more likely though i guess they'll just streamline everything so open topped isnt a thing e.g. pts adjustments for overall weaker stats
i think transports is the next big one i'm looking forward to them talking about, will probably really set the tone as to how the edition is gonna play out. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say land raiders are gonna be a go-to transport now but i'm expecting them to be 300ish pts
Ragnar Blackmane wrote: The wording of the Counter Offensive strategem is pretty wierd, can anyone (preferably with AoS experience) explain what it is supposed to do? Seems wierd to be able to fight a unit somehow that already charged and had its combat resolved (what is the worth in that? Does it have to be another unit locked in the same combat?).
It is used only when you are charged by multiple units. Usually, all those units would be able to attack before you do, with the stratagem only one attacks, then you can choose one unit to fight before the other charging attackers are resolved.
Is it? Do we know yet CC doesn't work like in AOS where you don't have to solve one combat fully before moving to other? In AOS for example with player A and B combats:
A1+A2 vs B1, A3 vs B2+B3
A could pick A1, then B picks up 3, A2, B1, A3, B2(okay bad order but case in point).
Ragnar Blackmane wrote: The wording of the Counter Offensive strategem is pretty wierd, can anyone (preferably with AoS experience) explain what it is supposed to do? Seems wierd to be able to fight a unit somehow that already charged and had its combat resolved (what is the worth in that? Does it have to be another unit locked in the same combat?).
It is used only when you are charged by multiple units. Usually, all those units would be able to attack before you do, with the stratagem only one attacks, then you can choose one unit to fight before the other charging attackers are resolved.
Is it? Do we know yet CC doesn't work like in AOS where you don't have to solve one combat fully before moving to other? In AOS for example with player A and B combats:
A1+A2 vs B1, A3 vs B2+B3
A could pick A1, then B picks up 3, A2, B1, A3, B2(okay bad order but case in point).
It's not about multiple-unit combats.
All Charging units strike first. Let's say three units charged, three different areas of board. They'd normally all swing first. This allows you to interrupt that a little and possibly kill/weaken a charging unit before it strikes, say.
Then after Chargers are done, other units in CC alternate, again battlefield wide.
All Charging units strike first. Let's say three units charged, three different areas of board. They'd normally all swing first. This allows you to interrupt that a little and possibly kill/weaken a charging unit before it strikes, say.
Then after Chargers are done, other units in CC alternate, again battlefield wide.
Yes but if you don't have to solve one combat fully who says you can't pick up unit in another combat?
All Charging units strike first. Let's say three units charged, three different areas of board. They'd normally all swing first. This allows you to interrupt that a little and possibly kill/weaken a charging unit before it strikes, say.
Then after Chargers are done, other units in CC alternate, again battlefield wide.
Yes but if you don't have to solve one combat fully who says you can't pick up unit in another combat?
I don't understand what you mean exactly, but it reads as you could choose any of your units to attack, not just vs a charger. I just outlined one of the more logical uses. Is that what you meant?
KommissarKiln wrote: He's probably free to generate as many CPs as he wants in Trazyn's museum. Gone, but never forgotten
Oh come on. The guy can sneak in an Imperial Knight or a bunch of Baneblade, I'm sure he will be able to sneak out something as small and stealthy as an imperial guard commander .
All Charging units strike first. Let's say three units charged, three different areas of board. They'd normally all swing first. This allows you to interrupt that a little and possibly kill/weaken a charging unit before it strikes, say.
Then after Chargers are done, other units in CC alternate, again battlefield wide.
Yes but if you don't have to solve one combat fully who says you can't pick up unit in another combat?
I don't understand what you mean exactly, but it reads as you could choose any of your units to attack, not just vs a charger. I just outlined one of the more logical uses. Is that what you meant?
Well say enemy has charged 2 squads separately. You might be able to wreck the other squad in separate combat alltogether. So might not be only when it's 2 vs 1 but say 1vs1 in 2 parts.
All Charging units strike first. Let's say three units charged, three different areas of board. They'd normally all swing first. This allows you to interrupt that a little and possibly kill/weaken a charging unit before it strikes, say.
Then after Chargers are done, other units in CC alternate, again battlefield wide.
Yes but if you don't have to solve one combat fully who says you can't pick up unit in another combat?
I don't understand what you mean exactly, but it reads as you could choose any of your units to attack, not just vs a charger. I just outlined one of the more logical uses. Is that what you meant?
Well say enemy has charged 2 squads separately. You might be able to wreck the other squad in separate combat alltogether. So might not be only when it's 2 vs 1 but say 1vs1 in 2 parts.
Indeed we are talking about the latter scenario, multiple 1v1 situations.
When the same unit assault more than one squad (and is the only unit assaulting that turn), you can't stop it. You will have to wait until he completed all his attacks.
Of all the races of 40k, 3 stand out as psyker neutral - Necrons, Dark Eldar and Tau. The Necrons because they don't have a soul or flesh, the Dark Eldar because they dispose anyone who does psychic powers due to their history, and the Tau due to their young age.
But, does that mean these armies will get psychic defenses, rather than a psychic phase? My worry is that for all the strengths these armies have, it might be easy to counter with some psychic shenanigans, with no way themselves to stop it.
My hope is that in the case of the Necrons and Tau they get built in resilience to psychic attacks/effects, and the Dark Eldar get some... Painful gear to put the hurt on psykers.
Your thoughts guys?
Whatever matches their narrative, I say. Tau don't understand psykers, so I say they shouldn't have any defenses against them. I mean, after all, isn't massive long range firepower and moving cover that reflects projectiles enough?
Necrons definitely, absolutely should. Don't they have anti-psyker abilities already? If they don't then that's criminal.
Dark Eldar... They do have the ability to repress psykers, but only through surgery. It actually takes a null to repress psykers on the field, and their fluff made it clear that for whatever reason they don't have those and have had to rely on the Imperium for a supply of nulls.
Also, why is everyone forgetting the Mechanicus? They don't have any pskers. But they have access to Imperial Assassins.
Tau having stuff to help negate psychic attacks could be part of their Fifth or even the lost Fourth Sphere Expansion tech. You never know what they'll cook up!
All Charging units strike first. Let's say three units charged, three different areas of board. They'd normally all swing first. This allows you to interrupt that a little and possibly kill/weaken a charging unit before it strikes, say.
Then after Chargers are done, other units in CC alternate, again battlefield wide.
Yes but if you don't have to solve one combat fully who says you can't pick up unit in another combat?
I don't understand what you mean exactly, but it reads as you could choose any of your units to attack, not just vs a charger. I just outlined one of the more logical uses. Is that what you meant?
Well say enemy has charged 2 squads separately. You might be able to wreck the other squad in separate combat alltogether. So might not be only when it's 2 vs 1 but say 1vs1 in 2 parts.
Indeed we are talking about the latter scenario, multiple 1v1 situations.
When the same unit assault more than one squad (and is the only unit assaulting that turn), you can't stop it. You will have to wait until he completed all his attacks.
You can't interrupt a squad's action, no. But you can attack before opponent's second charging unit, interrupting regular turn flow.
I will say the Tau are beginning to learn more of the "mind-science" as they call it and while poorly understood the Ethereals are having top secret research done no doubt. I suspect the safer of these inventions could be used to generate simple psychic nullifying fields as a justification for some unique wargear or whatever reason you need. There is a decent BS lore reason if they ever need it. I'm sure GW can pay for something much better lol.
Of all the races of 40k, 3 stand out as psyker neutral - Necrons, Dark Eldar and Tau. The Necrons because they don't have a soul or flesh, the Dark Eldar because they dispose anyone who does psychic powers due to their history, and the Tau due to their young age.
But, does that mean these armies will get psychic defenses, rather than a psychic phase? My worry is that for all the strengths these armies have, it might be easy to counter with some psychic shenanigans, with no way themselves to stop it.
My hope is that in the case of the Necrons and Tau they get built in resilience to psychic attacks/effects, and the Dark Eldar get some... Painful gear to put the hurt on psykers.
Your thoughts guys?
Whatever matches their narrative, I say. Tau don't understand psykers, so I say they shouldn't have any defenses against them. I mean, after all, isn't massive long range firepower and moving cover that reflects projectiles enough?
Necrons definitely, absolutely should. Don't they have anti-psyker abilities already? If they don't then that's criminal.
Dark Eldar... They do have the ability to repress psykers, but only through surgery. It actually takes a null to repress psykers on the field, and their fluff made it clear that for whatever reason they don't have those and have had to rely on the Imperium for a supply of nulls.
Also, why is everyone forgetting the Mechanicus? They don't have any pskers. But they have access to Imperial Assassins.
The Tau simply do not understand and do not have ways of defending against Psykers (apart from firepower) unless they bring in client races, potentially including humans - which would be cool and could have some fun effects when it all goes wrong. Also they now have their own Genestealer Cults so that's a option for psychic support Depending on how Ethereals work they may not want to much research on "mind science".
Necrons def do
Dark Eldar have nasty devices that can effect psykers - they suppress their own abilities but that does not mean they can endure Blanks any better than anyone else.
Nids have the Shadow in the Warp - one would hope that's a faction rule.
Sisters of Battle should be resistant but don't have special defences other than His Will
You say that like Stratagems for sisters won't just be their acts of faith. Some of the stronger girls might get the ability to deny psychic casts. "Priests" in Age of Sigmar can deny spells but can't cast any themselves.
I do like the idea of the tau doing secret research into...mind science? Using other species (including humans) as the test subjects.
I still think they should gain pysker auxiliaries in the form of a new alien race. And just as an aside, those breacher teams were a missed opportunity to introduce Gue'vesa auxiliaries.
Assuming everyone's current best guess is correct and the release date is June 17th, if pre-orders go up next weekend (27th/28th) that only leaves 3 weeks for stocking worldwide of what is most likely to be the year's biggest release.
Retail logistics are not really my field - is this feasible?
I think it'll launch at warhammer fest, available on the day and shipping that week. They've been hyping for a few weeks already, they aren't going to have a big preorder window - there's little left to say about it
Bear in mind that doesn't mean we'll see a box set released that weekend, probably just a book and some supplements
Lord Ruby34 wrote: I'd expect both Farsight and Shadowsun to hand out at least one extra command point each, considering that they're both supposed to be tactical geniuses. Possibly also the generic Tau commander, but that seems less likely.
What's more likely is that generating an extra command point will be a warlord trait, or whatever the 8th edition equivalent is.
Has it not been confirmed that warlord traits are returning?
IIRC there is a race that joined the Tau "Federation of Heretical Xenos" that were described to be large psychic worms that were for some reason were on the same status level as an Ethereal....and may be secretly controlling them. They were mentioned in the 6th edition codex iirc.
Additionally, if memory serves, the weak and dirty xenos sols Tau have are basically tiny motes of lit on par with popcorn to the Daemons. They basically have no warp presence worth noting and if where the last race alive the daemons would be forced into starvation.
Too bad they're dirty xenos who are better off dead, eh?
That said, it's not like an outside force couldn't be involved in the development of the Tau. It was long assumed that the Eldar might be responsible for uplifting their primative race to being a space faring one, but I hold that it seems more like something an enterprising Necron dynasty looking to escape the confines of their immortal(ish) bodies and return to fleshy mortal ones would cook up.
Especially since there aren't any real major Necron vs Tau lore bits I can recall.
More off the topic of Tau and on the topic of Stratagems, modifying or re-rolling things will likely be the majority of the uses of the rule. Everything else will likely come down to things like out of turn activations of units (perhaps Tau will get one allowing them to spend 2cp to run away from a charging unit to avoid becoming sushi for example).
Some armies may even get certain abilities for less or more depending on their lore. Orks might get the Counter Offensive one as a 1CP option for example because they love a good scrap so much that they can't wait their turn. I could see things like activating a unit out of turn to charge if they aren't engaged allowing you to counter charge the enemy and even the odds, or engage something out of turn.
That said, if army core mechanics (Acts of Faith, Waaaagh, ect) become CP rules while other armies (namely Marines) keep free Chapter Tactics at no cost to use, I'm going to shank some folks with a melta barrel.
Has it not been confirmed that warlord traits are returning?
No, but i'm sure we'll see them.
IIRCAOS has something similar but you get to choose or dice roll depending on if you have something that fits your narrative or just happy to see what you get.
ClockworkZion wrote: IIRC there is a race that joined the Tau "Federation of Heretical Xenos" that were described to be large psychic worms that were for some reason were on the same status level as an Ethereal....and may be secretly controlling them. They were mentioned in the 6th edition codex iirc.
Additionally, if memory serves, the weak and dirty xenos sols Tau have are basically tiny motes of lit on par with popcorn to the Daemons. They basically have no warp presence worth noting and if where the last race alive the daemons would be forced into starvation.
Too bad they're dirty xenos who are better off dead, eh?
That said, it's not like an outside force couldn't be involved in the development of the Tau. It was long assumed that the Eldar might be responsible for uplifting their primative race to being a space faring one, but I hold that it seems more like something an enterprising Necron dynasty looking to escape the confines of their immortal(ish) bodies and return to fleshy mortal ones would cook up.
Especially since there aren't any real major Necron vs Tau lore bits I can recall.
They also had the Nascari (spelling) in BFG who were a highly Psychic race, I don't think they had many numbers and were more of a space faring race, but I'm sure the Tau could do some sort of research into how they work and utilise their findings.
I've always envisioned the Tau as being a race created by the Old Ones, in their ever going war against the C'tan and their Necron servents. Most native 40k races were created for this purpose. However that is with the old lore that was sadly made obsolete with 5th edition Necron Codex.
ClockworkZion wrote: IIRC there is a race that joined the Tau "Federation of Heretical Xenos" that were described to be large psychic worms that were for some reason were on the same status level as an Ethereal....and may be secretly controlling them. They were mentioned in the 6th edition codex iirc.
Additionally, if memory serves, the weak and dirty xenos sols Tau have are basically tiny motes of lit on par with popcorn to the Daemons. They basically have no warp presence worth noting and if where the last race alive the daemons would be forced into starvation.
Too bad they're dirty xenos who are better off dead, eh?
That said, it's not like an outside force couldn't be involved in the development of the Tau. It was long assumed that the Eldar might be responsible for uplifting their primative race to being a space faring one, but I hold that it seems more like something an enterprising Necron dynasty looking to escape the confines of their immortal(ish) bodies and return to fleshy mortal ones would cook up.
Especially since there aren't any real major Necron vs Tau lore bits I can recall.
They also had the Nascari (spelling) in BFG who were a highly Psychic race, I don't think they had many numbers and were more of a space faring race, but I'm sure the Tau could do some sort of research into how they work and utilise their findings.
I've always envisioned the Tau as being a race created by the Old Ones, in their ever going war against the C'tan and their Necron servents. Most native 40k races were created for this purpose. However that is with the old lore that was sadly made obsolete with 5th edition Necron Codex.
Orks were the last ditch effort of the Old Ones to fight the Necron threat(something I'm pretty sure existed in the Ork codex before the Necron one)Tau came into being as a space farng race post the Heresy, so literally billions of years too late to be an Old Ones project.
A whole new type of Space Marines! That might just be the most exciting thing to happen to the Imperium since Roboute Guilliman woke up from his 10,000 year nap and decided to save the galaxy. But what does their arrival mean? How will it affect your collection or army? What modelling options will you have? Read on to find out.
So, what’s a Primaris Space Marine?
These are a brand-new breed of warrior, commissioned by the Primarch Guilliman and developed in secret on Mars for the past 10,000 years by Archmagos Belisarius Cawl. Find out all about them and check out an awesome video here.
Are all my current Space Marine miniatures redundant now?
No way! Primaris Space Marines do not replace regular (if a superhuman killing machine can be described as ‘regular’) Space Marines. These guys have a few extra genetic enhancements, thanks to Belisarius Cawl, and serve as additional reinforcements in the Adeptus Astartes arsenal, not replacements.
Will there be multiple types of Primaris Space Marines?
You bet. So far you’ve seen the Intercessors, the line infantry clad in Mk X armour, but there are plenty more on the way. And likely vehicles too…
Wait, Mk X armour?
Yup, these guys have new armour: combining the best bits of classic Horus Heresy-era plate, with some fancy tech developed more recently.
Can I field a whole army of Primaris Marines?
You totally can. From a background point of view, some Chapters, especially those decimated in the events of the Gathering Storm, now have entire companies of these new warriors. Others have incorporated squads of Primaris Space Marines into existing Battle Companies. And perhaps most excitingly, Guilliman has founded some entirely new Chapters out of these new Space Marines.
I have an <insert favourite Chapter> army. Can I field Primaris Space Marines?
Any of the galaxy’s many hundreds of Codex Chapters can use Primaris Space Marines, along with many of the less Codex-compliant ones like Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves.
So, Primaris are just better in the game, right? What’s the point of using older Space Marines?
Marine to Marine, they certainly have some advantages over a Tactical Squad, but it comes at a cost. These guys will cost more points than standard Space Marines, so you’ll have fewer of them, and their weapon options will be different. For maximum tactical punch, you’ll want to bring all your Space Marines to the tabletop.
What if I don’t want to use them?
Well, aside from missing out on some cool new models and tactical options for your army, then that’s totally cool. You certainly don’t have to include Primaris Space Marines in your Space Marines army. Though when you see the Primaris Redemptor Dreadnought, you’ll want to. Primaris Dreadnought? Did I write that…? Nah. Moving on.
Are the kits compatible with existing Space Marine kits?
Good Question. There are certainly elements of the existing Space Marines kits that will be cross-compatible, while the new armour mark means that some parts won’t mix as easily. Shoulder pads and helmets are the same scale, and will still work, whereas the legs, torso and arms are different, and not quite as interchangeable. In terms of the Primaris sets themselves, you’ll have loads of fun kit-bashing them.
Can I use these guys alongside my Astra Militarum army?
Yeah you can. These new Space Marines will be available to use alongside all Imperial armies to fill some battlefield roles your army might normally struggle with.
Do the Primaris Space Marines play nice with the Adeptus Custodes?
They sure do. Many of the Emperor’s elite golden guard are accompanying Gulliman and the Primaris Space Marines on the Indomitus Crusade.
But I play Chaos! Where are my super-super-human reinforcements?
First off, that’ll teach you for turning your back on the Emperor. Secondly, did you not see the Death Guard teaser video? The Chaos Gods have not been idle – we guarantee there are some warp-charged hulking warriors on their way for you guys in the not too distant future.
Guilliman be blessed, these guys are rad! When can I get them?
Primaris Space Marines will be available alongside the new edition of Warhammer 40,000. Oh and while we’re on the subject, we’ll be announcing the release date before the end of this month…
ClockworkZion wrote: IIRC there is a race that joined the Tau "Federation of Heretical Xenos" that were described to be large psychic worms that were for some reason were on the same status level as an Ethereal....and may be secretly controlling them. They were mentioned in the 6th edition codex iirc.
Additionally, if memory serves, the weak and dirty xenos sols Tau have are basically tiny motes of lit on par with popcorn to the Daemons. They basically have no warp presence worth noting and if where the last race alive the daemons would be forced into starvation.
Too bad they're dirty xenos who are better off dead, eh?
That said, it's not like an outside force couldn't be involved in the development of the Tau. It was long assumed that the Eldar might be responsible for uplifting their primative race to being a space faring one, but I hold that it seems more like something an enterprising Necron dynasty looking to escape the confines of their immortal(ish) bodies and return to fleshy mortal ones would cook up.
Especially since there aren't any real major Necron vs Tau lore bits I can recall.
They also had the Nascari (spelling) in BFG who were a highly Psychic race, I don't think they had many numbers and were more of a space faring race, but I'm sure the Tau could do some sort of research into how they work and utilise their findings.
I've always envisioned the Tau as being a race created by the Old Ones, in their ever going war against the C'tan and their Necron servents. Most native 40k races were created for this purpose. However that is with the old lore that was sadly made obsolete with 5th edition Necron Codex.
Orks were the last ditch effort of the Old Ones to fight the Necron threat(something I'm pretty sure existed in the Ork codex before the Necron one)Tau came into being as a space farng race post the Heresy, so literally billions of years too late to be an Old Ones project.
The Old Ones weren't all wiped out, also seeing as the Necron and C'tan at the time were asleep, the warp storm that saved the Tau race from being wiped out by the Imperium, in that small time (6,000 years) they went from a pre-industrial race to an advanced space faring race that can fight as well as the major races. It could be that in that period their race were being uplifted to a previous design if needed by the Old Ones were are near enough immortal. The Etherals did arrive mysteriously when they were needed the most.
All this is sadly lost as the epic idea of conflicts in the early days of the galaxy that have shaped the galaxy to be what it is now, and the Old Ones, C'tan being Volons/Shadows from Babylon 5 was a great narrative to 40k. Now that is all undone.
Range 30, S4, AP-1, Rapid Fire 1 bolters for the Primaris? While I like, I am hesitant to jump on board with the Primaris marines just yet. Mostly because I expect hem to be more expensive than standard Marines.
Also theImperium has adopted Ork philosophies of power now. Bigger Marines = stronger Marines.
From the Q&A they mention the Primaris Marines having a dreadnought.
So basically the new marines are super awesome BUT somehow already have enough honored dead to need a special Dreadnought chassis right out of the gate.
So, it seems standard marines are going the way of the dodo (as it seems the numarines will replace old marines battlefield roles, I fear from now on we won't get any new normal marines releases). Meh, I always wanted to play Guard anyways.
ClockworkZion wrote: From the Q&A they mention the Primaris Marines having a dreadnought.
So basically the new marines are super awesome BUT somehow already have enough honored dead to need a special Dreadnought chassis right out of the gate.
So basically... new marines with Horus Heresy Helmets... and Horus Heresy Dreadnoughts... why GW, why?! Why can't you just leave 30k in 30k, and stop bringing it to my 40k?! I don't want those damm Contemptor Dreadnoughts! They belong to the Tau, not to the Imperium!
I expect this nu-marines to be in tabletop numbers simillar to Deathwathc or Grey Knights, so the -1 AP in their bolters sholdn't be a big problem. If in the future they become the standart infantry replacing the standard marines, then that can be a problem.
Hmm so a new Marine - oh well - hopefully something exciting tomorrow.
I fear from now on we won't get any new normal marines releases
Well I really hope we don't have both types of marines clogging up the schedule
Sad that we won't see sniper Raven Guard or Elite Terminators for Salamanders but instead yet more stuff for the ultra special snowflakes Wolves, Blood and Dark Angels. Hopefully not more bloody riding Wolf nonsense with the new Marines.
I get that it makes sense for GW though - release better new marines for all and then watch them be snapped up.
crnaguja wrote: So, it seems standard marines are going the way of the dodo (as it seems the numarines will replace old marines battlefield roles, I fear from now on we won't get any new normal marines releases). Meh, I always wanted to play Guard anyways.
I'm doubtful of this, but it will all be in what the points and options for them will be.
crnaguja wrote: So, it seems standard marines are going the way of the dodo (as it seems the numarines will replace old marines battlefield roles, I fear from now on we won't get any new normal marines releases). Meh, I always wanted to play Guard anyways.
According to the FAQ old Marines will have wargear options exclusive to them. Wich means running a pure Primaris army will lose you some wargear flexibility. They're also more expensive than normal Marines (I'm guessing they,ll cost as much as veterans, if not more, standard) so running an army of them will be smaller than normal (I imagine it mit look a lot like the old Draigowing armies of 5th that wee half the size of most armies at the time).
Galas wrote: So basically... new marines with Horus Heresy Helmets... and Horus Heresy Dreadnoughts... why GW, why?! Why can't you just leave 30k in 30k, and stop bringing it to my 40k?!
I expect this nu-marines to be in tabletop numbers simillar to Deathwathc or Grey Knights, so the -1 AP in their bolters sholdn't be a big problem. If in the future they become the standart infantry replacing the standard marines, then that can be a problem.
Belisarius Cawl is Bill Gates of the future. He just hates the number 9
I wanted Scouring Era Marines to pop out of the new warp rift and launch a crisade against e Imperium because it's nothing like the one they served....
Shiny marines. Cool. I'll be honest, the models in the video (which has now vanished at time of writing, not sure why) look great and the idea seems reasonable, but I'm personally much more interested in what they do with the background - this is just straight up tech heresy at the minute. I'm expecting this to turn into horus heresy 2: electric boogaloo to be honest. Not much to really talk about that hasn't been said.
Looking forwards to the faction focus later though (assuming there is one, they seem to be done every other day).
So their Boltgun has ap -1, a good way to tempt Marine players who will miss being able to gun down opponent models with some ease. Seeing as the current Bolter in the new system is going to be ap - it seems a bit of a marketing ploy to get players to heavily invest in them.
However I am glad that they are going to be fully fleshed out, it does mean that current Marines could easily be formed as old bands fighting against an Imperium they no longer support especially if they are stuck on the Terra side of the large warp rift.
As long as we see no horrendous models like the Centurions.
I haven't exactly been a fan of the idea of new Marines, but honestly after reading that they seem fine. They seem to be fitting them in the fluff at least well enough that classic marine chapters can still feel like their own thing, while maintaining the option of integrating or going full Primaris in the future.
I do hope that their points cost is such that they remain a low model count army, or else those -1 AP bolt guns are going to get a bit tiresome.
I think it's a smart move, but I do see a possible (albeit slow) move away from standard marines. After all if the story is advancing, the models may as well.
I'm more curious about Roboute setting up "new" Chapters full of the Primaris Marines --- which hints heavily at an all-Primaris army, etc.
Personally, I don't much care, and I think people may weep if a normal 10-man Tactical squad becomes $65 etc.
I actually think that in the very long run (10+ years) they will phase out the current marines, so not to cannibalize each other´s sales. They even said that they will have vehichles for them. And I welcome such decision. I had enough of terribly propotioned space marines.
Jesus, those are AMAZING. I'm giddy over here, these models are some of the best I've ever seen, from any company... at the same time, I'm wondering what I should do with my hundred baby marines... they suddenly don't feel as cool :(
BertBert wrote: These Primaris Marines might very well be the first reason in almost 20 years of Warhammer for me to buy a box of Space Marines.
I'm genuinely impressed.
I'm still not sure if it makes sense. It's the end of the 40th Millennium. And now all of a sudden we've released new marines and instantly all the chapters have them? This universe is not small. How do they travel across the universe instantly?
ClockworkZion wrote: From the Q&A they mention the Primaris Marines having a dreadnought.
So basically the new marines are super awesome BUT somehow already have enough honored dead to need a special Dreadnought chassis right out of the gate.
Mymearan wrote: Jesus, those are AMAZING. I'm giddy over here, these models are some of the best I've ever seen, from any company... at the same time, I'm wondering what I should do with my hundred baby marines... they suddenly don't feel as cool :(
Put em on ebay for me I'll still use the original Marines especially nicely painted ones.
On a more serious note, I can't exactly see the Unforgiven looking very well at this whole Primaris addition, especially if the Lion comes back around.
BertBert wrote: These Primaris Marines might very well be the first reason in almost 20 years of Warhammer for me to buy a box of Space Marines.
I'm genuinely impressed.
I'm still not sure if it makes sense. It's the end of the 40th Millennium. And now all of a sudden we've released new marines and instantly all the chapters have them? This universe is not small. How do they travel across the universe instantly?
Hm, let's not try to make sense of science fiction/fantasy. However, the dominant fall back answer to all your burning questions is... $$$$$$$.
Shadow Walker wrote: I wonder what the stats will be. T5? S5? W2? I hope that Custodes are still better.
I'm guessing Custodes will be better, but not by much. It feels like Primaris marines will be a gap fill between the two.
That said, I rather hope we end up with a proper civil war involving the Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves (and their successors) regarding the Primaris. Some chapter's secrets might be too much for these new Astartes to accept leading to open accusarions of heresy and geneseed mutation gone too far...
theocracity wrote: I haven't exactly been a fan of the idea of new Marines, but honestly after reading that they seem fine. They seem to be fitting them in the fluff at least well enough that classic marine chapters can still feel like their own thing, while maintaining the option of integrating or going full Primaris in the future.
I do hope that their points cost is such that they remain a low model count army, or else those -1 AP bolt guns are going to get a bit tiresome.
From the FAQ
Q. So, Primaris are just better in the game, right? What’s the point of using older Space Marines?
A. Marine to Marine, they certainly have some advantages over a Tactical Squad, but it comes at a cost. These guys will cost more points than standard Space Marines, so you’ll have fewer of them, and their weapon options will be different. For maximum tactical punch, you’ll want to bring all your Space Marines to the tabletop.
Sounds like they will be slightly more in points and they are trying to blend them into the current range rather than replace which is good.
BertBert wrote: These Primaris Marines might very well be the first reason in almost 20 years of Warhammer for me to buy a box of Space Marines.
I'm genuinely impressed.
I'm still not sure if it makes sense. It's the end of the 40th Millennium. And now all of a sudden we've released new marines and instantly all the chapters have them? This universe is not small. How do they travel across the universe instantly?
They are pulling an "Attack of the Clones" here and, honestly, I don't know how they will justify the logistics, but for me the miniatures have always been the driving force behind this hobby, so I'll be content with whatever reasoning they come up.
Mymearan wrote: Jesus, those are AMAZING. I'm giddy over here, these models are some of the best I've ever seen, from any company... at the same time, I'm wondering what I should do with my hundred baby marines... they suddenly don't feel as cool :(
BertBert wrote: These Primaris Marines might very well be the first reason in almost 20 years of Warhammer for me to buy a box of Space Marines.
I'm genuinely impressed.
I'm still not sure if it makes sense. It's the end of the 40th Millennium. And now all of a sudden we've released new marines and instantly all the chapters have them? This universe is not small. How do they travel across the universe instantly?
ClockworkZion wrote: That said, I rather hope we end up with a proper civil war involving the Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves (and their successors) regarding the Primaris. Some chapter's secrets might be too much for these new Astartes to accept leading to open accusarions of heresy and geneseed mutation gone too far...
Shadow Walker wrote: I wonder what the stats will be. T5? S5? W2? I hope that Custodes are still better.
I'm guessing Custodes will be better, but not by much. It feels like Primaris marines will be a gap fill between the two.
That said, I rather hope we end up with a proper civil war involving the Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves (and their successors) regarding the Primaris. Some chapter's secrets might be too much for these new Astartes to accept leading to open accusarions of heresy and geneseed mutation gone too far...
And THAT'S why I love my Salamanders. No secrets. No heresy. Just good old boys. (that and I hate marine armies, but I love dragons and fire so....)
Those figs look awesome. I own a ton of marines, but those figs have made my decision about what to for 8th very easy. Damn, I'm really impressed. I haven't said that about a GW product in a long time.
Mymearan wrote: ... at the same time, I'm wondering what I should do with my hundred baby marines... they suddenly don't feel as cool :(
And there you've hit why this is a problem on the head, at least fluff wise (models are fine as far as I can see).
There is no way this can be spun that doesn't cheapen normal space marines, which just went from humanity's finest mass production supersoldiers to "I guess they'll do, they're no Indomitus marine though."
And sure, Custodes already fit the design space of "double space marine", but the distinction there is that they aren't mass produced. These fellows have been shipped out all over the galaxy and even have entire all-Indomitus chapters already.
Mymearan wrote: ... at the same time, I'm wondering what I should do with my hundred baby marines... they suddenly don't feel as cool :(
And there you've hit why this is a problem on the head, at least fluff wise (models are fine as far as I can see).
There is no way this can be spun that doesn't cheapen normal space marines, which just went from humanity's finest mass production supersoldiers to "I guess they'll do, they're no Indomitus marine though."
And sure, Custodes already fit the design space of "double space marine", but the distinction there is that they aren't mass produced. These fellows have been shipped out all over the galaxy and even have entire all-Indomitus chapters already.
Couldn't agree more. It's getting to the point in which GW is outdoing itself in making every new release "extra special" to the point of ridiculousness.
We already had "special" marines (I see you GK and Custodes). Soon enough we'll have the ultra extra special super duper uber spess mehreens if things keep going.
Shadow Walker wrote: I wonder what the stats will be. T5? S5? W2? I hope that Custodes are still better.
I'm guessing Custodes will be better, but not by much. It feels like Primaris marines will be a gap fill between the two.
That said, I rather hope we end up with a proper civil war involving the Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves (and their successors) regarding the Primaris. Some chapter's secrets might be too much for these new Astartes to accept leading to open accusarions of heresy and geneseed mutation gone too far...
And THAT'S why I love my Salamanders. No secrets. No heresy. Just good old boys. (that and I hate marine armies, but I love dragons and fire so....)
...who went from being African black to Coal black and having glowing red eyes. Cue chaos influence accusations perhaps?
I could see RG definitely being accused of pulling a second Heresy once he starts meddling with the first founding chapters.
I know it's never going to happen, but how Fabius Bile reacts to this should be interesting.
Some Primarch just shows up and within months releases a new, improved Space Marine on the Galaxy? He'll either be thrilled at the new possibilities (And with it a massive need to acquire the "Enhanced Gene-seed") or apoplectic at someone attempting to usurp the title of Primogenitor (and with it a massive need to kill Cawl and acquire the "Enhanced Gene-seed").
Sadly though a scenario box of a new Fabius Bile and his New Man vs Cawl and some newly minted Primaris is a wish too far I think.
Mymearan wrote: ... at the same time, I'm wondering what I should do with my hundred baby marines... they suddenly don't feel as cool :(
And there you've hit why this is a problem on the head, at least fluff wise (models are fine as far as I can see).
There is no way this can be spun that doesn't cheapen normal space marines, which just went from humanity's finest mass production supersoldiers to "I guess they'll do, they're no Indomitus marine though."
And sure, Custodes already fit the design space of "double space marine", but the distinction there is that they aren't mass produced. These fellows have been shipped out all over the galaxy and even have entire all-Indomitus chapters already.
Custodes can't even be produced anymore since we have no Emperor leading the project. And if they,re double Mares, then Primaris are the 1.5x Marines. Better, but not a complete showing up I bet.
Wonder ifthis is why we haven't gotten a new BL writing contest this year: too many lore changes to jump into.
Hm. Wonder how a chapter like the Red Hunters (which is basically Inquisitor run) would handle the new boys. Acceptance as a new tool against Chaos, or shunned as potential heresy?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voodoo_Chile wrote: I know it's never going to happen, but how Fabius Bile reacts to this should be interesting.
Some Primarch just shows up and within months releases a new, improved Space Marine on the Galaxy? He'll either be thrilled at the new possibilities (And with it a massive need to acquire the "Enhanced Gene-seed") or apoplectic at someone attempting to usurp the title of Primogenitor (and with it a massive need to kill Cawl and acquire the "Enhanced Gene-seed").
Sadly though a scenario box of a new Fabius Bile and his New Man vs Cawl and some newly minted Primaris is a wish too far I think.
Sounds like both a good campaign, and a possible novel right threre.
Mymearan wrote: ... at the same time, I'm wondering what I should do with my hundred baby marines... they suddenly don't feel as cool :(
And there you've hit why this is a problem on the head, at least fluff wise (models are fine as far as I can see).
There is no way this can be spun that doesn't cheapen normal space marines, which just went from humanity's finest mass production supersoldiers to "I guess they'll do, they're no Indomitus marine though."
And sure, Custodes already fit the design space of "double space marine", but the distinction there is that they aren't mass produced. These fellows have been shipped out all over the galaxy and even have entire all-Indomitus chapters already.
Couldn't agree more.
I definitely understand that feeling - it's why I wasn't particularly interested in the idea. However reading how they're handling it I feel like older Marines will still have a place as the representatives of the Imperium as it was - idiosyncratic and ancient. I have to admit that as a Xenos player Primaris Marines feel new and intimidating, character-wise, in ways that the older Astartes don't - but that's a good feeling and it doesn't detract from the history that the older chapters have.
While I feel like older chapters will get replaced in the very long term, I hope that the Primaris Marines don't copy the thunderwolves and death company and other elements of the chapters that feel like ancient traditions. Primaris Marines should remain their own stormcast-y thing imo and let the older Astartes have their idiosyncrasies.
The Crimson Fists would have been sent like 500 of them. Woo! Back to full strength!
But really, I am probably going to get a couple Squads of them for my Crimson Fists and Blood Angels. They do look fairly nice. And since the shoulder pauldrons are the same, they will probably work with the Chapter Upgrade Sprue.
New theory: The units in the Starter Set are just the regular Primaris Marines with the Ultramarines Chapter Upgrade Sprue included. That would explain why there are molded pauldrons, but wouldn't necessitate a whole new mold.
Also, looks like we discovered what the Gene seed tithe was for.
crnaguja wrote: So, it seems standard marines are going the way of the dodo (as it seems the numarines will replace old marines battlefield roles, I fear from now on we won't get any new normal marines releases). Meh, I always wanted to play Guard anyways.
According to the FAQ old Marines will have wargear options exclusive to them. Wich means running a pure Primaris army will lose you some wargear flexibility. They're also more expensive than normal Marines (I'm guessing they,ll cost as much as veterans, if not more, standard) so running an army of them will be smaller than normal (I imagine it mit look a lot like the old Draigowing armies of 5th that wee half the size of most armies at the time).
For options now but you willing to bet there won't be n+1 releases later filling in blanks:-)
So far least interesting sneak peak for me. Give transports already!
This could lead to civil war in the Imperium, a big split, which I think has been needed for a while. The game has always had too much of a focus on the Imperium, so we end up with Marines vs Marines a lot of the time in games. It doesn't reflect the lore too well. Now there is a good reason for this, or at the very least justification.
One other interesting development due to this is that Chaos Space Marines will now have an image that is more inline with their background. They are meant to be 10,000 years old, but only aged a small amount due to the Warp., so should look out of place next to Marines in the current setting which has made a few advancements.
Having said that I do imagine that in a few years time the current Marine range is cut off. A bit like how Empire for WHFB have no new models, but are still playable.
stonehorse wrote: This could lead to civil war in the Imperium, a big split, which I think has been needed for a while. The game has always had too much of a focus on the Imperium, so we end up with Marines vs Marines a lot of the time in games. It doesn't reflect the lore too well. Now there is a good reason for this, or at the very least justification.
That is a nice advantage.
One other interesting development due to this is that Chaos Space Marines will now have an image that is more inline with their background. They are meant to be 10,000 years old, but only aged a small amount due to the Warp., so should look out of place next to Marines in the current setting which has made a few advancements.
Though presumably newer Chaos kits will expand their scale with various warp-fueled modifications.
Having said that I do imagine that in a few years time the current Marine range is cut off. A bit like how Empire for WHFB have no new models, but are still playable.
The nice thing is that most of the current Marine lines are basically done. What else would they even have to release, beyond controversial new things like Centurions?
Even most of the non-codex chapters have their own kits all done.
stonehorse wrote: This could lead to civil war in the Imperium, a big split, which I think has been needed for a while. The game has always had too much of a focus on the Imperium, so we end up with Marines vs Marines a lot of the time in games.
So you think the solution to seeing Marines vs Marines a lot of the time is a civil war plot device where... Marines inevitably fight Marines?
I'm pretty disappointed the way they did this. In my opinion, there were 2 acceptable paths...
Path 1: NuMarines aren't really anything other than excuse to redo the base model and encourage everyone to buy them all over again.
Path 2: Nu Marines are used as an excuse to consolidate all the disparate chapters into a single unified 'space marine' book.
But they are neither. They are an entirely new Imperium Army of Super Space Marines that can be used in current Space Marine armies. What role could they honestly play? What hole was there left to fill?
stonehorse wrote: This could lead to civil war in the Imperium, a big split, which I think has been needed for a while. The game has always had too much of a focus on the Imperium, so we end up with Marines vs Marines a lot of the time in games.
So you think the solution to seeing Marines vs Marines a lot of the time is a civil war plot device where... Marines inevitably fight Marines?
I think his point was that now there's a fluff justification for something that's already happening. There's no amount of background fluff that would stop people who collect Marines from playing games against other people who collect Marines - now at least they have a slightly better story hook for it.
Mymearan wrote: ... at the same time, I'm wondering what I should do with my hundred baby marines... they suddenly don't feel as cool :(
And there you've hit why this is a problem on the head, at least fluff wise (models are fine as far as I can see).
There is no way this can be spun that doesn't cheapen normal space marines, which just went from humanity's finest mass production supersoldiers to "I guess they'll do, they're no Indomitus marine though."
And sure, Custodes already fit the design space of "double space marine", but the distinction there is that they aren't mass produced. These fellows have been shipped out all over the galaxy and even have entire all-Indomitus chapters already.
Greyknights and Deathwatch. That's all that there's to say. Double space marine has been a thing since the last two editions.
Mymearan wrote: ... at the same time, I'm wondering what I should do with my hundred baby marines... they suddenly don't feel as cool :(
And there you've hit why this is a problem on the head, at least fluff wise (models are fine as far as I can see).
There is no way this can be spun that doesn't cheapen normal space marines, which just went from humanity's finest mass production supersoldiers to "I guess they'll do, they're no Indomitus marine though."
And sure, Custodes already fit the design space of "double space marine", but the distinction there is that they aren't mass produced. These fellows have been shipped out all over the galaxy and even have entire all-Indomitus chapters already.
Greyknights and Deathwatch. That's all that there's to say. Double space marine has been a thing since the last two editions.
Completely different, actually.
I can bet you that soon enough we'll be seeing Primaris Deathwatch and Primaris Grey Knights in an upward scale of powering up...
Galas wrote: The marine in the far right, the one without helmet, and with the Mohawk... isn't he familiar?
Spoiler:
Isn't that a current Marine?
The marines to the left and right are both current. The new ones are broader and slightly taller, no heavy or special weapons there that i can see though.
This is the beginning of the new world order for marines. Of course they can't invalidate the old marines (can you imagine the backlash that would cause?), but these guys will figure in as the Space Marine army that gets releases from here-on-out. It's like the 32mm bases: obviously GW can't mandate a change like this, but they're hoping that people will naturally gravitate towards the new product and shun the use of the old.
I like the armor and the helmets, but I have enough stuff to paint and will avoid these ... if there will be some special characters I will get them, but these generic ones I will pass on ...
stonehorse wrote: This could lead to civil war in the Imperium, a big split, which I think has been needed for a while. The game has always had too much of a focus on the Imperium, so we end up with Marines vs Marines a lot of the time in games.
So you think the solution to seeing Marines vs Marines a lot of the time is a civil war plot device where... Marines inevitably fight Marines?
By no means is it a solution to just how popular Marines are and sell. However it will be nice to see a game of Marines vs Marines and not have to come up with the notion of it being a training exercise, now it can be a civil war, fuelled by different ideologies, or a way for a secretive chapter to try to keep its secrets.
Sadly I doubt we'll ever see a solution to balance out the sales of the other factions in 40k.
Still as their gene seed is new and improved I wonder what wonderful Tyranids we can get from this. The Hive Guard was speculated as being from Space Marine DNA back in their first appearance in the 3rd edition codex.
These are a brand-new breed of warrior, commissioned by the Primarch Guilliman and developed in secret on Mars for the past 10,000 years by Archmagos Belisarius Cawl. Find out all about them and check out an awesome video here.
Are all my current Space Marine miniatures redundant now?
No way! Primaris Space Marines do not replace regular (if a superhuman killing machine can be described as ‘regular’) Space Marines. These guys have a few extra genetic enhancements, thanks to Belisarius Cawl, and serve as additional reinforcements in the Adeptus Astartes arsenal, not replacements.
Will there be multiple types of Primaris Space Marines?
You bet. So far you’ve seen the Intercessors, the line infantry clad in Mk X armour, but there are plenty more on the way. And likely vehicles too…
Wait, Mk X armour?
Yup, these guys have new armour: combining the best bits of classic Horus Heresy-era plate, with some fancy tech developed more recently.
Can I field a whole army of Primaris Marines?
You totally can. From a background point of view, some Chapters, especially those decimated in the events of the Gathering Storm, now have entire companies of these new warriors. Others have incorporated squads of Primaris Space Marines into existing Battle Companies. And perhaps most excitingly, Guilliman has founded some entirely new Chapters out of these new Space Marines.
I have an <insert favourite Chapter> army. Can I field Primaris Space Marines?
Any of the galaxy’s many hundreds of Codex Chapters can use Primaris Space Marines, along with many of the less Codex-compliant ones like Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves.
So, Primaris are just better in the game, right? What’s the point of using older Space Marines?
Marine to Marine, they certainly have some advantages over a Tactical Squad, but it comes at a cost. These guys will cost more points than standard Space Marines, so you’ll have fewer of them, and their weapon options will be different. For maximum tactical punch, you’ll want to bring all your Space Marines to the tabletop.
What if I don’t want to use them?
Well, aside from missing out on some cool new models and tactical options for your army, then that’s totally cool. You certainly don’t have to include Primaris Space Marines in your Space Marines army. Though when you see the Primaris Redemptor Dreadnought, you’ll want to. Primaris Dreadnought? Did I write that…? Nah. Moving on.
Are the kits compatible with existing Space Marine kits?
Good Question. There are certainly elements of the existing Space Marines kits that will be cross-compatible, while the new armour mark means that some parts won’t mix as easily. Shoulder pads and helmets are the same scale, and will still work, whereas the legs, torso and arms are different, and not quite as interchangeable. In terms of the Primaris sets themselves, you’ll have loads of fun kit-bashing them.
Can I use these guys alongside my Astra Militarum army?
Yeah you can. These new Space Marines will be available to use alongside all Imperial armies to fill some battlefield roles your army might normally struggle with.
Do the Primaris Space Marines play nice with the Adeptus Custodes?
They sure do. Many of the Emperor’s elite golden guard are accompanying Gulliman and the Primaris Space Marines on the Indomitus Crusade.
But I play Chaos! Where are my super-super-human reinforcements?
First off, that’ll teach you for turning your back on the Emperor. Secondly, did you not see the Death Guard teaser video? The Chaos Gods have not been idle – we guarantee there are some warp-charged hulking warriors on their way for you guys in the not too distant future.
Guilliman be blessed, these guys are rad! When can I get them?
Primaris Space Marines will be available alongside the new edition of Warhammer 40,000. Oh and while we’re on the subject, we’ll be announcing the release date before the end of this month…
So, let's assume this is going to be a stealth upgrade, where the normal marines slowly get replaced/get no new releases until finally there is nothing but Primaris Marines... how would that affect the other ranges? Eldar for example are supposed to be really tall, but are dwarfed by these new marines. Would we get an across the board upscale of everything bar humans (Genestealer cults and Skitarii have basically nailed the scale already)?
Youn wrote: So... they have have expanded the scale of the marines by 10-20% and are making up some fluff reasoning to the different scale marines.
Right. They can't outright have these guys replace the existing Space Marine ranges, the fury would be relentless. The fluff is just an excuse to validate them existing alongside the smaller marines. These Numarines are the new 32mm bases- expect to see them dominate all future releases.
Mymearan wrote: So, let's assume this is going to be a stealth upgrade, where the normal marines slowly get replaced/get no new releases until finally there is nothing but Primaris Marines... how would that affect the other ranges? Eldar for example are supposed to be really tall, but are dwarfed by these new marines. Would we get an across the board upscale of everything bar humans (Genestealer cults and Skitarii have basically nailed the scale already)?
This is what I'm most interested in, as I'd like to know where I should expand my DE army or hold off.
Mymearan wrote: ... at the same time, I'm wondering what I should do with my hundred baby marines... they suddenly don't feel as cool :(
And there you've hit why this is a problem on the head, at least fluff wise (models are fine as far as I can see).
There is no way this can be spun that doesn't cheapen normal space marines, which just went from humanity's finest mass production supersoldiers to "I guess they'll do, they're no Indomitus marine though."
And sure, Custodes already fit the design space of "double space marine", but the distinction there is that they aren't mass produced. These fellows have been shipped out all over the galaxy and even have entire all-Indomitus chapters already.
Greyknights and Deathwatch. That's all that there's to say. Double space marine has been a thing since the last two editions.
Completely different, actually.
I can bet you that soon enough we'll be seeing Primaris Deathwatch and Primaris Grey Knights in an upward scale of powering up...
This is just another step.
Yeah, it's not really comparable. Whilst I'll admit I do dislike grey knights for a mix of their bad fluff handling and their grabbing of -two- gimmicks (all Psyker recruits -and- entire chapter has the crux Terminatus) they're ultimately just normal marines that have been min-maxed as an anti-daemon task force through the aforementioned two gimmicks.
And deathwatch? Just a task force with good equipment.
I would have -zero- issue with these new fellows just having new equipment, it's the fact that they're a new breed of genetically superior supersoldiers that has the cheapening effect.
stonehorse wrote: This could lead to civil war in the Imperium, a big split, which I think has been needed for a while. The game has always had too much of a focus on the Imperium, so we end up with Marines vs Marines a lot of the time in games.
So you think the solution to seeing Marines vs Marines a lot of the time is a civil war plot device where... Marines inevitably fight Marines?
By no means is it a solution to just how popular Marines are and sell. However it will be nice to see a game of Marines vs Marines and not have to come up with the notion of it being a training exercise, now it can be a civil war, fuelled by different ideologies, or a way for a secretive chapter to try to keep its secrets.
So you mean...like it could be before?
We had the whole "Badab War" that resulted from a Chapter(Astral Claws) commandeering(raiding) Imperial shipping to support their anti-pirate/rebel activities and taking from other Chapters, to the point of it erupting into a war between the Astral Claws and their allies versus the Imperium itself.
We had Chapters coming to blows over perceived insults/slights.
At the end of the day, most players didn't care enough to figure out a reason for why Raven Guard would be fighting Ultramarines or something of that nature.
Sadly I doubt we'll ever see a solution to balance out the sales of the other factions in 40k.
Still as their gene seed is new and improved I wonder what wonderful Tyranids we can get from this. The Hive Guard was speculated as being from Space Marine DNA back in their first appearance in the 3rd edition codex.
Hopefully something cool, but if Hive Guard were already enhanced Gene-Seed how can you improve upon that?
Wow, not going to lie, I didn't think they would actually give Space Marines the Empire->Sigmarine treatment. I'm indifferent to it overall, since I sold off my loyalist marines a while back..but wow.
Sucks for the dudes who invested in marines recently.
Youn wrote: So... they have have expanded the scale of the marines by 10-20% and are making up some fluff reasoning to the different scale marines.
Yeah, the odd thing is they could have simply made them bigger without much fuss.
But these are new!(TM) and if you don't use them you'll lose out on tactical options!
Mymearan wrote: So, let's assume this is going to be a stealth upgrade, where the normal marines slowly get replaced/get no new releases until finally there is nothing but Primaris Marines... how would that affect the other ranges? Eldar for example are supposed to be really tall, but are dwarfed by these new marines. Would we get an across the board upscale of everything bar humans (Genestealer cults and Skitarii have basically nailed the scale already)? Would the Primaris Marines actually replace normal marines Irma would there be some fluff justification for normal marines disappearing eventually? I just can't see how they could do it after introducing these as a new breed of marines.
I would wait to claim foul. Most of the Eldar range is fairly old.
The Visarch and Yvraine were what I would expect any updated Eldar models to look like in terms of scale.
Accolade wrote: This is the beginning of the new world order for marines. Of course they can't invalidate the old marines (can you imagine the backlash that would cause?), but these guys will figure in as the Space Marine army that gets releases from here-on-out. It's like the 32mm bases: obviously GW can't mandate a change like this, but they're hoping that people will naturally gravitate towards the new product and shun the use of the old.
Especially if the new models have superior rules and models. This way GW will sell far more true scale marines than they would have if they had simply been a new mark of armour at true scale. I'm not surprised that this has happened, this is what I thought would happen, but I am disappointed as it puts pressure on players to upgrade. I have nearly a full chapter of UM marines, a significant investment made over many years of gaming, including well over 100 FW 30k Marines. This change will slowly decommission the older marines to supporting characters at best.
Mind bogglingly stupid background changes. If GW wants cooler looking marine kits, just redo the line, no need for absurd background changes.
More to the point, I think it speaks to a fundamental creative bankruptcy on the part of GW if this is the best thing they can come up with for a new launch .
What I'm hoping for is some sort of inherent weakness to these guys, say a really short lifespan like Thunder Warriors. If they're just mega marines with extra everything it WILL cheapen normal marines to the point of being downgraded from badass to just ass.
Have they even attempted a fluff justification for why the bolt rifles haven't been produced and distributed to the existing non-Primaris Space Marines, and/or why those same existing non-Primaris Space Marines haven't commandeered those same supplies and just given the ENTIRELY NEW RECRUITS the boltguns while they use the Better-In-Every-Way bolt rifles?
stonehorse wrote: This could lead to civil war in the Imperium, a big split, which I think has been needed for a while. The game has always had too much of a focus on the Imperium, so we end up with Marines vs Marines a lot of the time in games.
So you think the solution to seeing Marines vs Marines a lot of the time is a civil war plot device where... Marines inevitably fight Marines?
I think his point was that now there's a fluff justification for something that's already happening. There's no amount of background fluff that would stop people who collect Marines from playing games against other people who collect Marines - now at least they have a slightly better story hook for it.
Yeah? In the army we called it a drill. They dont have to actually be killing each other, just practicing their tactics on one another. We do it all the time.
Unusual Suspect wrote: Have they even attempted a fluff justification for why the bolt rifles haven't been produced and distributed to the existing non-Primaris Space Marines, and/or why those same existing non-Primaris Space Marines haven't commandeered those same supplies and just given the ENTIRELY NEW RECRUITS the boltguns while they use the Better-In-Every-Way bolt rifles?
No? Thought not.
Considering this was literally the first official confirmation of them, no. No they haven't.
Unusual Suspect wrote: Have they even attempted a fluff justification for why the bolt rifles haven't been produced and distributed to the existing non-Primaris Space Marines, and/or why those same existing non-Primaris Space Marines haven't commandeered those same supplies and just given the ENTIRELY NEW RECRUITS the boltguns while they use the Better-In-Every-Way bolt rifles?
No? Thought not.
I'd go for the usual "This is a super special weapon that is oh so very hard to make with limited numbers so only the bestest of the besty best can use them."
Unusual Suspect wrote: Have they even attempted a fluff justification for why the bolt rifles haven't been produced and distributed to the existing non-Primaris Space Marines, and/or why those same existing non-Primaris Space Marines haven't commandeered those same supplies and just given the ENTIRELY NEW RECRUITS the boltguns while they use the Better-In-Every-Way bolt rifles?
No? Thought not.
Considering this was literally the first official confirmation of them, no. No they haven't.
Have they ever explained why they don't just give every marine a heavy bolter? Or plasma gun?
Unusual Suspect wrote: Have they even attempted a fluff justification for why the bolt rifles haven't been produced and distributed to the existing non-Primaris Space Marines, and/or why those same existing non-Primaris Space Marines haven't commandeered those same supplies and just given the ENTIRELY NEW RECRUITS the boltguns while they use the Better-In-Every-Way bolt rifles?
No? Thought not.
Considering this was literally the first official confirmation of them, no. No they haven't.
Have they ever explained why they don't just give every marine a heavy bolter? Or plasma gun?
Because reasons.
I mean, even at the height of the Great Crusade? They didn't do that. It likely comes down to the fact that they're specialized weapons and blah blah blah.
It's like why we don't give every soldier a marksman rifle or a grenade launcher.
Reasons.
I keep having all the scenes in the terminator films running through my head when a newer style terminator turns up and makes arnie looks like yesterday's toaster XD
Well, I was more thinking. My marines are the Circa 1989 vintage space marines in all metal. So, 25-27mm marines. Putting 32mm marines next to them will cause these marines to tower over my older marines.
I play Red Hunters and Grey Hunters for my force. Which I am not really sure how these guys would fit into my army. They seem dangerously heretical.
Mymearan wrote: So, let's assume this is going to be a stealth upgrade, where the normal marines slowly get replaced/get no new releases until finally there is nothing but Primaris Marines... how would that affect the other ranges? Eldar for example are supposed to be really tall, but are dwarfed by these new marines. Would we get an across the board upscale of everything bar humans (Genestealer cults and Skitarii have basically nailed the scale already)?
That's a tough one. Eldar might just get new stuff like Rubrics that are a lot bigger.
Mymearan wrote: ... at the same time, I'm wondering what I should do with my hundred baby marines... they suddenly don't feel as cool :(
And there you've hit why this is a problem on the head, at least fluff wise (models are fine as far as I can see).
There is no way this can be spun that doesn't cheapen normal space marines, which just went from humanity's finest mass production supersoldiers to "I guess they'll do, they're no Indomitus marine though."
And sure, Custodes already fit the design space of "double space marine", but the distinction there is that they aren't mass produced. These fellows have been shipped out all over the galaxy and even have entire all-Indomitus chapters already.
Custodes can't even be produced anymore since we have no Emperor leading the project. And if they,re double Mares, then Primaris are the 1.5x Marines. Better, but not a complete showing up I bet.
Is this true?
Or been confirmed anywhere?
Or are all Custodes now supposed to be 10,000+ years old?!?
I have to admit, of all news concerning 8th edition this is the most boring one by far.
Yay, new Space Marines, we didn't have enough of those already. The centurion already didn't fit between SM and Terminator and now there's some additional special marine, as we didn't have Death Watch, Grey Knights and all kinds of snowflake rules for marines already. If you ask me they should have just said it's a new mark of armour from some forgeworld, job done.
Unusual Suspect wrote: Have they even attempted a fluff justification for why the bolt rifles haven't been produced and distributed to the existing non-Primaris Space Marines, and/or why those same existing non-Primaris Space Marines haven't commandeered those same supplies and just given the ENTIRELY NEW RECRUITS the boltguns while they use the Better-In-Every-Way bolt rifles?
No? Thought not.
I'd go for the usual "This is a super special weapon that is oh so very hard to make with limited numbers so only the bestest of the besty best can use them."
Who would you say are the bestest of the besty best?
New recruits with slightly enhanced capabilities
OR
Veteran Astartes with hundreds of years of actual battle under their belt?
Unusual Suspect wrote: Have they even attempted a fluff justification for why the bolt rifles haven't been produced and distributed to the existing non-Primaris Space Marines, and/or why those same existing non-Primaris Space Marines haven't commandeered those same supplies and just given the ENTIRELY NEW RECRUITS the boltguns while they use the Better-In-Every-Way bolt rifles?
Models from the waist up are quite nice, from the waist down look like sigmarites and so it's a poor design.
The story hasn't moved far enough along to merit Marines 2.0 and they just seem very shoe horned and forced in. They could have milked this for months and possibly years before unleashing the kit.
Guilliman starts a secret project with Cawl but he needs supplies.
On the way to one place the Orks attack, bigger and better than ever they are led by a giant warboss - is he the new Beast? Could even be Ghazgull with a new cool model but put a new unit of big boys out to support the range.
They head to The Rock for these super secret supplies. They need the Lion's blood? How did they know? Cypher told them? Spooky. Oh no a nid invasion has happened and the Rock is in peril. Lots of new nid stuff.
They head to the Damocles gulf - what's this? mutated tau? New kit for them?
Etc etc and then once you've established how hard they fought for the materials, they get new marines.
Instead we've gone - Fenris damaged, Ultramar damaged - NEW MARINES TO SAVE THE DAY
Unusual Suspect wrote: Have they even attempted a fluff justification for why the bolt rifles haven't been produced and distributed to the existing non-Primaris Space Marines, and/or why those same existing non-Primaris Space Marines haven't commandeered those same supplies and just given the ENTIRELY NEW RECRUITS the boltguns while they use the Better-In-Every-Way bolt rifles?
No? Thought not.
I'd go for the usual "This is a super special weapon that is oh so very hard to make with limited numbers so only the bestest of the besty best can use them."
Who would you say are the bestest of the besty best?
New recruits with slightly enhanced capabilities
OR
Veteran Astartes with hundreds of years of actual battle under their belt?
Well, considering the PR that GW is putting out on these guys, I fully expect one of these Primaris noobs to deck Dante with a single blow K.O right out of neophyte status.
"Bigger, stronger and faster - It's the Super Marines!"
Kijamon wrote: Models from the waist up are quite nice, from the waist down look like sigmarites and so it's a poor design.
The story hasn't moved far enough along to merit Marines 2.0 and they just seem very shoe horned and forced in. They could have milked this for months and possibly years before unleashing the kit.
Guilliman starts a secret project with Cawl but he needs supplies.
On the way to one place the Orks attack, bigger and better than ever they are led by a giant warboss - is he the new Beast? Could even be Ghazgull with a new cool model but put a new unit of big boys out to support the range.
They head to The Rock for these super secret supplies. They need the Lion's blood? How did they know? Cypher told them? Spooky. Oh no a nid invasion has happened and the Rock is in peril. Lots of new nid stuff.
They head to the Damocles gulf - what's this? mutated tau? New kit for them?
Etc etc and then once you've established how hard they fought for the materials, they get new marines.
Instead we've gone - Fenris damaged, Ultramar damaged - NEW MARINES TO SAVE THE DAY
No offense, but your idea is horrible. Your argument is basically make the narrative spend months/years just for the sake of bringing them, that sounds an appalling concept to me, specially to non-marine players.
Mymearan wrote: ... at the same time, I'm wondering what I should do with my hundred baby marines... they suddenly don't feel as cool :(
And there you've hit why this is a problem on the head, at least fluff wise (models are fine as far as I can see).
There is no way this can be spun that doesn't cheapen normal space marines, which just went from humanity's finest mass production supersoldiers to "I guess they'll do, they're no Indomitus marine though."
And sure, Custodes already fit the design space of "double space marine", but the distinction there is that they aren't mass produced. These fellows have been shipped out all over the galaxy and even have entire all-Indomitus chapters already.
Custodes can't even be produced anymore since we have no Emperor leading the project. And if they,re double Mares, then Primaris are the 1.5x Marines. Better, but not a complete showing up I bet.
Is this true?
Or been confirmed anywhere?
Or are all Custodes now supposed to be 10,000+ years old?!?
In the background the Emperor individually made each Custodes. I don't know if they put something in the background about someone else doing it after the Heresy. He did make 10,000 of them, but something like 90% died in the Heresy.
Unusual Suspect wrote: Have they even attempted a fluff justification for why the bolt rifles haven't been produced and distributed to the existing non-Primaris Space Marines, and/or why those same existing non-Primaris Space Marines haven't commandeered those same supplies and just given the ENTIRELY NEW RECRUITS the boltguns while they use the Better-In-Every-Way bolt rifles?
No? Thought not.
I'd go for the usual "This is a super special weapon that is oh so very hard to make with limited numbers so only the bestest of the besty best can use them."
Who would you say are the bestest of the besty best?
New recruits with slightly enhanced capabilities
OR
Veteran Astartes with hundreds of years of actual battle under their belt?
It all depends. Are the Primaris being done ala the clones from Star Wars, with flash-learning implemented from birth? Or are they being done ala the current Space Marines where they take some kids and splice in some new organs and call the job a good 'un?
Because that's part of why the "veteran Astartes" are such tough customers. It's not simply the "hundreds of years of actual battle under their belt", it's also the whole "having been selected at a young age from living in what amounted to a hellscape" thing too.
Kijamon wrote: Models from the waist up are quite nice, from the waist down look like sigmarites and so it's a poor design.
The story hasn't moved far enough along to merit Marines 2.0 and they just seem very shoe horned and forced in. They could have milked this for months and possibly years before unleashing the kit.
Guilliman starts a secret project with Cawl but he needs supplies.
On the way to one place the Orks attack, bigger and better than ever they are led by a giant warboss - is he the new Beast? Could even be Ghazgull with a new cool model but put a new unit of big boys out to support the range.
They head to The Rock for these super secret supplies. They need the Lion's blood? How did they know? Cypher told them? Spooky. Oh no a nid invasion has happened and the Rock is in peril. Lots of new nid stuff.
They head to the Damocles gulf - what's this? mutated tau? New kit for them?
Etc etc and then once you've established how hard they fought for the materials, they get new marines.
Instead we've gone - Fenris damaged, Ultramar damaged - NEW MARINES TO SAVE THE DAY
The end of 10,000 year long project isn't exactly 'sudden'....
For more info, peeps need to read the full news article on www.warhammer40000.com
Mymearan wrote: ... at the same time, I'm wondering what I should do with my hundred baby marines... they suddenly don't feel as cool :(
And there you've hit why this is a problem on the head, at least fluff wise (models are fine as far as I can see).
There is no way this can be spun that doesn't cheapen normal space marines, which just went from humanity's finest mass production supersoldiers to "I guess they'll do, they're no Indomitus marine though."
And sure, Custodes already fit the design space of "double space marine", but the distinction there is that they aren't mass produced. These fellows have been shipped out all over the galaxy and even have entire all-Indomitus chapters already.
Custodes can't even be produced anymore since we have no Emperor leading the project. And if they,re double Mares, then Primaris are the 1.5x Marines. Better, but not a complete showing up I bet.
Is this true?
Or been confirmed anywhere?
Or are all Custodes now supposed to be 10,000+ years old?!?
Custodes, unlike Space Marines, are inmortal. All the Custodes have been handcrafted by the emperor. I don't know if it is confirmated, but I'm pretty sure that yes, the Custodes that remain alive are the last of the Custodes.
Personally, I'm gonna buy a Squad or two of this new marines to run them as my "Normal Space Marines" with my mix Inquisition/Imperial Guard/Sisters of Battle forces, so they seem more fluffy and scale better against the Cadians and Tempestus Scions models.
Kijamon wrote: Models from the waist up are quite nice, from the waist down look like sigmarites and so it's a poor design.
The story hasn't moved far enough along to merit Marines 2.0 and they just seem very shoe horned and forced in. They could have milked this for months and possibly years before unleashing the kit.
Guilliman starts a secret project with Cawl but he needs supplies.
On the way to one place the Orks attack, bigger and better than ever they are led by a giant warboss - is he the new Beast? Could even be Ghazgull with a new cool model but put a new unit of big boys out to support the range.
They head to The Rock for these super secret supplies. They need the Lion's blood? How did they know? Cypher told them? Spooky. Oh no a nid invasion has happened and the Rock is in peril. Lots of new nid stuff.
They head to the Damocles gulf - what's this? mutated tau? New kit for them?
Etc etc and then once you've established how hard they fought for the materials, they get new marines.
Instead we've gone - Fenris damaged, Ultramar damaged - NEW MARINES TO SAVE THE DAY
No offense, but your idea is horrible. Your argument is basically make the narrative spend months/years just for the sake of bringing them, that sounds an appalling concept to me, specially to non-marine players.
No offence taken but you're kidding yourself on if you are anticipating this as a splash release. At least with a suggestion like mine you don't wind up with loads of kits dropped in to the range out of nowhere and the Xenos/Traitor players will get some pieces along the way. It's always going to be an Imperium focused game (never having a non space marine big box game for example) so while my idea isn't perfect, it is miles better than just having random stuff shoe horned in to the game as if it's always been there
Unusual Suspect wrote: Have they even attempted a fluff justification for why the bolt rifles haven't been produced and distributed to the existing non-Primaris Space Marines, and/or why those same existing non-Primaris Space Marines haven't commandeered those same supplies and just given the ENTIRELY NEW RECRUITS the boltguns while they use the Better-In-Every-Way bolt rifles?
No? Thought not.
I'd go for the usual "This is a super special weapon that is oh so very hard to make with limited numbers so only the bestest of the besty best can use them."
Who would you say are the bestest of the besty best?
New recruits with slightly enhanced capabilities
OR
Veteran Astartes with hundreds of years of actual battle under their belt?
It all depends. Are the Primaris being done ala the clones from Star Wars, with flash-learning implemented from birth? Or are they being done ala the current Space Marines where they take some kids and splice in some new organs and call the job a good 'un?
Because that's part of why the "veteran Astartes" are such tough customers. It's not simply the "hundreds of years of actual battle under their belt", it's also the whole "having been selected at a young age from living in what amounted to a hellscape" thing too.
A possible explanation.
Another explanation that just came to me, and I'm honestly feeling a fool for not considering it, is that the old marines would undoubtedly venerate their old Boltguns and their machine spirits - strictly better weapons in every sense would not be enough to get a marine to abandon the sidearm that never abandoned him in hundreds of years of battle.
Kijamon wrote: Models from the waist up are quite nice, from the waist down look like sigmarites and so it's a poor design.
The story hasn't moved far enough along to merit Marines 2.0 and they just seem very shoe horned and forced in. They could have milked this for months and possibly years before unleashing the kit.
Guilliman starts a secret project with Cawl but he needs supplies.
On the way to one place the Orks attack, bigger and better than ever they are led by a giant warboss - is he the new Beast? Could even be Ghazgull with a new cool model but put a new unit of big boys out to support the range.
They head to The Rock for these super secret supplies. They need the Lion's blood? How did they know? Cypher told them? Spooky. Oh no a nid invasion has happened and the Rock is in peril. Lots of new nid stuff.
They head to the Damocles gulf - what's this? mutated tau? New kit for them?
Etc etc and then once you've established how hard they fought for the materials, they get new marines.
Instead we've gone - Fenris damaged, Ultramar damaged - NEW MARINES TO SAVE THE DAY
No offense, but your idea is horrible. Your argument is basically make the narrative spend months/years just for the sake of bringing them, that sounds an appalling concept to me, specially to non-marine players.
"No offense but your idea is gak"
Made me chuckle.
Anyhow, I feel like maybe in the old system GW would have been able to phase out the "normal" Marines in the crunch.
This new system they're introducing however is heavily based on yearly updates, community input etc.
While they may give the Nu-Marines a lot of attention, I think it will be pretty hard to ignore "normal" Marines given the new format they themselves introduced.
Unusual Suspect wrote: Have they even attempted a fluff justification for why the bolt rifles haven't been produced and distributed to the existing non-Primaris Space Marines, and/or why those same existing non-Primaris Space Marines haven't commandeered those same supplies and just given the ENTIRELY NEW RECRUITS the boltguns while they use the Better-In-Every-Way bolt rifles?
No? Thought not.
I'd go for the usual "This is a super special weapon that is oh so very hard to make with limited numbers so only the bestest of the besty best can use them."
You mean those same guys wielding them that have been mass distributed to shore up the numbers of the current 1000 chapters and have enough left over to make chapters composed entirely of themselves? Yeah, definitely limited numbers there.
Unusual Suspect wrote: Have they even attempted a fluff justification for why the bolt rifles haven't been produced and distributed to the existing non-Primaris Space Marines, and/or why those same existing non-Primaris Space Marines haven't commandeered those same supplies and just given the ENTIRELY NEW RECRUITS the boltguns while they use the Better-In-Every-Way bolt rifles?
No? Thought not.
I'd go for the usual "This is a super special weapon that is oh so very hard to make with limited numbers so only the bestest of the besty best can use them."
You mean those same guys wielding them that have been mass distributed to shore up the numbers of the current 1000 chapters and have enough left over to make chapters composed entirely of themselves? Yeah, definitely limited numbers there.
Bolt rifle upgrade kits of the Astartes incoming I can see FW doing that......
I'm sure this will work out great for Guilliman. Just like when Corax did the same thing. Or when the Space Wolves tried it
.
I thought having them turn into monsters would be quite fun - and then I look at the mess they made of the Wulfen models........
Mymearan wrote: So, let's assume this is going to be a stealth upgrade, where the normal marines slowly get replaced/get no new releases until finally there is nothing but Primaris Marines... how would that affect the other ranges? Eldar for example are supposed to be really tall, but are dwarfed by these new marines. Would we get an across the board upscale of everything bar humans (Genestealer cults and Skitarii have basically nailed the scale already)?
That's a tough one. Eldar might just get new stuff like Rubrics that are a lot bigger.
Eldar have needed new plastics for a lot of their infantry for a very long time, if they're going to rescale they've got the opportunity to do a lot of good. Sounds like they'll be focusing on the new Guillimarine stuff for a while yet, though...
In regards to the Nu-Marines, I have no objections to the models or the fluff or anything else about them - it all seems fine in my opinion.
I just hoped against hope that GW would buck their eternal trend and not dive immediately into moar Space Marines.
To be clear, I'm not saying it's an error on their part, or malicious as some might claim - clearly lots of folks will be happy with this release. I've just personally seen and played against enough Space Marine armies for several lifetimes, that I didn't feel like I needed a new breed to square up against. I would have muchly preferred a new, original faction, or a further fleshing-out of some of the less loved model lines. IMO one of 40k's greatest strengths is the diversity of the armies you can play.
Ah well. Can't argue with cold, hard cash. GW knows who butters their bread...
Unusual Suspect wrote: Have they even attempted a fluff justification for why the bolt rifles haven't been produced and distributed to the existing non-Primaris Space Marines, and/or why those same existing non-Primaris Space Marines haven't commandeered those same supplies and just given the ENTIRELY NEW RECRUITS the boltguns while they use the Better-In-Every-Way bolt rifles?
No? Thought not.
I'd go for the usual "This is a super special weapon that is oh so very hard to make with limited numbers so only the bestest of the besty best can use them."
You mean those same guys wielding them that have been mass distributed to shore up the numbers of the current 1000 chapters and have enough left over to make chapters composed entirely of themselves? Yeah, definitely limited numbers there.
Compare those with the numbers of Astartes that are left. Had SoB into the bunch as they also use bolters as their main weapons.
Mymearan wrote: ... at the same time, I'm wondering what I should do with my hundred baby marines... they suddenly don't feel as cool :(
And there you've hit why this is a problem on the head, at least fluff wise (models are fine as far as I can see).
There is no way this can be spun that doesn't cheapen normal space marines, which just went from humanity's finest mass production supersoldiers to "I guess they'll do, they're no Indomitus marine though."
And sure, Custodes already fit the design space of "double space marine", but the distinction there is that they aren't mass produced. These fellows have been shipped out all over the galaxy and even have entire all-Indomitus chapters already.
Custodes can't even be produced anymore since we have no Emperor leading the project. And if they,re double Mares, then Primaris are the 1.5x Marines. Better, but not a complete showing up I bet.
Is this true?
Or been confirmed anywhere?
Or are all Custodes now supposed to be 10,000+ years old?!?
I mean each one was a work of art made by the Emperor around he time he made the Thunder Warriors. And they spent the last 10,000 years not fighting or stepping outside of the Imperial Palace, so considering their legacy as either being sired from the Emperor's genes directly, or taken from a source lost during the Age of Strife (two theories that apparently come from different sources as mentioned in their Lexicanum article) I can't see why they can't be that old.
Even Marines have no known limit to their age (the big E could definitely cook up a way to prevent aging of a person's body on a genetic level afterall) when they were created and save for some graying there is no real description of any with the usual wrinkles or signs of aging we see in normal humans.
From a model standpoint those marines look fantastic. The proportions are spot on and the new bolter-rifle is badass.
I imagine that the new dreadnought will be equally cool given that I see a lot of FW design choices in these models and the FW dreads are awesome.
Fluffwise I don't think there is any good way to explain upscaling their most popular line of models but I have really enjoyed all the new storylines that GW have been pumping out lately so I am happy to wait and see what happens in the next few months!
Unusual Suspect wrote: Have they even attempted a fluff justification for why the bolt rifles haven't been produced and distributed to the existing non-Primaris Space Marines, and/or why those same existing non-Primaris Space Marines haven't commandeered those same supplies and just given the ENTIRELY NEW RECRUITS the boltguns while they use the Better-In-Every-Way bolt rifles?
No? Thought not.
Why doesn't everyone just have a lascannon?
Not enough serfs to polish the lenses needed to create all those ladcannons, their replacement parts and the like?
Remember gw makes fluff and artwork first then models and then rules. New marines are fine lore wise the imperium has been trying to improve and replicate the genesede project for thousands of years. And truthfully new marines are a thousand times better then centurion armour nonesense by finally give us truescale marines.
Wasn't there some talk of factions falling to Chaos and/or being redeemed? What are the odds the Alpha Legion gave Cawl or Guilliman a clean copy of the Primarch genetic template to make this entire enterprise possible?
The way the Primaris are described is basically the same as the first set of Marines created by Corax when he had access to the same, before the daemon blood corrupted it. Either the Alpha Legion gave them the template or Cawl spent 10,000 years rebuilding the template.
I really really dislike this release. I feel it curbstomps current fluff and gives a middle finger to existing marines. The niche of the super-supersoldier was already filled with grey knights, deathwatch and custodes. But these at least had drawbacks, the first two were specialists against a type of foe, the latter handmade by the Emperor. These are (fluffwise) all benefit and no drawback. They also seem to be produced faster than old marines...
And the models seem a bit meh to me.... I much preferred the mix and match of different armour marks creating unike supersoldiers than these highly uniform non Star Wars clones.
Unless each nu-marine is arouund the 50 point mark I sadly expect them to slowly replace the Space marines.
hypnoticeris wrote: I really really dislike this release. I feel it curbstomps current fluff and gives a middle finger to existing marines. The niche of the super-supersoldier was already filled with grey knights, deathwatch and custodes. But these at least had drawbacks, the first two were specialists against a type of foe, the latter handmade by the Emperor. These are (fluffwise) all benefit and no drawback. They also seem to be produced faster than old marines...
And the models seem a bit meh to me.... I much preferred the mix and match of different armour marks creating unike supersoldiers than these highly uniform non Star Wars clones.
Unless each nu-marine is arouund the 50 point mark I sadly expect them to slowly replace the Space marines.
Unless they have a major stat line increase over regular Marines I expect them to be the same base cost as Veterans.
Then again I half expect Veterans of all kinds to get bumped to 2 wounds and get a points bump just to make stuff like Vanguard look more useful.
Voodoo_Chile wrote: Wasn't there some talk of factions falling to Chaos and/or being redeemed? What are the odds the Alpha Legion gave Cawl or Guilliman a clean copy of the Primarch genetic template to make this entire enterprise possible?
The way the Primaris are described is basically the same as the first set of Marines created by Corax when he had access to the same, before the daemon blood corrupted it. Either the Alpha Legion gave them the template or Cawl spent 10,000 years rebuilding the template.
Funny you should mention Alpha Legion. They have the new armor on, on the cover of this novel! What could it mean?
Unusual Suspect wrote: Have they even attempted a fluff justification for why the bolt rifles haven't been produced and distributed to the existing non-Primaris Space Marines, and/or why those same existing non-Primaris Space Marines haven't commandeered those same supplies and just given the ENTIRELY NEW RECRUITS the boltguns while they use the Better-In-Every-Way bolt rifles?
First of all, I cant be the only one who read that in morgan freeman voice. Secondly: HELL YEAH! THOSE THINGS LOOK AWESOME!
Let me demonstrate something:
Armour through the ages by Ember (woo!)
MK I POWER ARMOUR:
Ehh, nice... shades, i guess?
Real Soldier
MK II CRUSADE POWER ARMOUR
Armour plates, sleek-ish design and a layer of secrecy. This is definitely armour. It is definitely a warrior.
Real Soldier
MK III IRON ARMOUR:
[img]https://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/e/e4/IF_Tact_Spt_Legionary.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/250?cb=20140411233258
[/img]
Well, slightly less archaic than the last one, it still looks powerful and dangerous.
Real Soldier
MK IV MAXIMUS ARMOUR
Yes. The perfect combination of sleek and jagged plates makes it look terrifying. And that helmet is to die for.
Real Soldier
MK V LETS-COBBLE-TOGETHER-WHATEVER-AND-HOPE-FOR-THE-BEST-PLUS-ITS-CHEAP POWER ARMOUR
Another yes, these guys look like they've seen action. There armour is functional and looks kinda scary. Good job.
Real Soldier
MK VI CORVUS ARMOUR, AKA BEAKIE, AKA THE BEST
No flaws. None. Flaws are fake news.
Real Soldier
MK VII DERP POWER ARMOUR
Squat legs. Lack of ammo pouches. No equipment. Much too smooth. Really, its fine if you remedy those things, but really? Plus the fact that EVERYONE has them makes them worse IMHO.
NOT a Real Soldier
MK VIII DERP-WITH-A-CHIN-GUARD POWER ARMOUR
Same. Except the DW models remedied some of the issues, so I can't complain.
Wannabe Real Soldier
MK X WHERE-DID-IX-GO? POWER ARMOUR
See for yourself
Real Soldier
krazynadechukr wrote: RG & Cawl should have used their new tech to create Female Space Marines at the same time...
They used existing geneseeds and added to the geneseed to enhance the Primaris over the limitations of the regular Astartes (perhaps their bodies negate lactic acid build up preventing fatigue from occuring for weeks at a time or something).
Still don't get while Cawl decided to make them bigger. Was it so is creation could stand above that of the Emperor's? </implied hubris and heretical pride>
What strikes me as interesting in all of this is that RG basically decided during the Scouring (prior to getting super shanked by Fulgrim) was that the Imperium need more Marines to properly regain safety and stanility in the galaxy and decided that his own chapter shouldn't be trusted with such a task, that even the Codex Astartes should not mention such plans, endevours or advice, but rather that he should trust a Martian Magos (remember half of the Mechanicum fell to Horus' side during the heresy and some of those who remain may not have been trustworthy at the time) to not only start this project, but to look for ways to enhance the existing geneseed in an attempt to meddle with his father's legacy.
I mean last time we saw intentions that well met Magnus punched a hole in the Emperor's protective wards and let daemons loose on Terra.
Putting that aside, I can accept the sudden mass reinforcements by this project as Cawl spendingnthe last 10k years basically doing nothing more than bouncing around the galaxy, abducting canidates that fit his profile for compatibility and stuffing altered geneseed organs into them before putting them into a kind of suspended animation while he awaited the chance to attempt to ressurect Guilliman. I mean if we can stick a Primarch in a stasis field, I'm sure the coghead can manage to do the same for the Primaris canidates after they completely melded with their new implants.
Would explain the blue tubes from the teaser video.
I think I'd have less of an issue with these on 2 counts:
There's different lower torso/leg options. Because man, those knees....
And secondly if they didn't shoehorn them into the fluff so hard. Am I meant to believe that depleted Chapters like the Carcharadon's (void-based and always low on numbers) have been reinforced?
So this is why Marine bolters became rend -0, the "new, and I hope you didnt spend money on normal marines lately" marines have the correct stat bolters. Excuse me, cawl pattern bolters.
That said, I expected the two wounds. Looks like they're just slightly tougher Marines for a cost bump. Looks like they'll be cheaper than Rubric Marines though (power 6 to the Rubric's 8 for 5 models).
I'm going to ignore the new background and -maybe- use NuMarines rues for regular Marines. And depending on the contents of the starter set I might buid the few SM kill teams or combat patrol forces I want to do (someday ) with them instead of tru-scaling regular ones. They'll still be regular old Astartas, "simply" being superhumanly strong/fast/resilient with *just* their rgular gene modification Such a stupid idea, hey, they are EVEN SUPERER Marines. The Homo Sapiens Novus project should have stayed a mysterious possiblity, not shoved down throats to sell updated Marine kits without making people angry.
Bulldogging wrote: So this is why Marine bolters became rend -0, the "new, and I hope you didnt spend money on normal marines lately" marines have the correct stat bolters. Excuse me, cawl pattern bolters.
LOL
snark aside, I'd say they have it for balance reasons more than buffinf a new unit who could have just gotten -2 rend bolters if regular bolters were a -1...
It's probably not news (maybe something I missed previously) but it looks like grenades are back to having a range and proper stats instead of being CC bonuses.
The full circle has now been completed. From Chaos Warriors in the old fantasy to Space Marines in 40k. From Space Marines in 40k to Stormcast Eternals in AoS, and now, Stormcast Eternals converted into Primary Marines in 40k again!
Now we can ascend to Godhood just like in Full Metal Alchemist!
That said, I expected the two wounds. Looks like they're just slightly tougher Marines for a cost bump. Looks like they'll be cheaper than Rubric Marines though (power 6 to the Rubric's 8 for 5 models).
Power 4 or 5 for a tactical squad perhaps?
Well they dont seem to have any options. so it kinda seems like power rating take into account overall or average loadouts making quick play a little easier.
Bulldogging wrote: So this is why Marine bolters became rend -0, the "new, and I hope you didnt spend money on normal marines lately" marines have the correct stat bolters. Excuse me, cawl pattern bolters.
LOL
No - old bolters became rend 0 just like every other AP5 weapon.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: It's probably not news (maybe something I missed previously) but it looks like grenades are back to having a range and proper stats instead of being CC bonuses.
News to me - I expected them to vanish - interesting.... you could throw krak grenades in 6th/7th IIRC.
My normal marines just because Primaris Marines. I'll just have to get some 32mm base inserts to make them play in game like they should have according to the fluff. I'll still buy probably a squad or two depending on the weapons loadouts for skirmish game and RPG purposes though. There was no reason to make them in game a separate stat line. They just should have introduced these just like they did the 3rd edition plastic kit as an update to the look of the models without fundamentally cranking them up to 11 compared with Adeptus Bargain Astartes.
Oh no... please GW don't do that. You learned you lesson with the initial release of Stormcast Eternals, selling 5 of them as if they where made of actual Gold!
Latro_ wrote: they can't take special or heavy weapons XD
hahahahhhhaa
I would point out before you chuckle too hard that your post ONLY applies to the one single squad entry shown so far. I have zero doubt that GW will roll otu devastator, assault marine, and terminator equivalents over the next year.
Im starting to guess that it will be a separate marine squad. so new marines will have there own tac,ass,dev squad variants. also dat plasma gun looks awesome.
Man im cheesed. i like EVERYTHING about the new models except the knee pads
it was almost perfect. ffs i need to figure out a way to convert it or something.
Im starting to guess that it will be a separate marine squad. so new marines will have there own tac,ass,dev squad variants. also dat plasma gun looks awesome.
Man im cheesed. i like EVERYTHING about the new models except the knee pads
it was almost perfect. ffs i need to figure out a way to convert it or something.
Agree. Even if the helmet is not my favourite, the models and weapons look awesome. I'm totally buy a box or two to run as "Not-NewMarines" in my Inquisition detachment with Celestine, Greyfax and Tempestus Scions.
Nope, thanks for the link. I like the new look (except maybe a little bit with the Chun Li thunder thighs...) In the RPG, "legion"/marine weapons were always superior to the normal human equivalents but on the tabletop they were identical except for visual flourishes like rabbit's feet or decorations. Now, they look like how they (used to since the license expired) act.
That said, I expected the two wounds. Looks like they're just slightly tougher Marines for a cost bump. Looks like they'll be cheaper than Rubric Marines though (power 6 to the Rubric's 8 for 5 models).
Power 4 or 5 for a tactical squad perhaps?
Rubrics had mortal wound battery in it though which skews a bit. Though -2 AP bolters also!
A reroll to charge for combat armies would be perhaps 2.
Depending on how Ethereals work they may not want to much research on "mind science".
I would have muchly preferred a new, original faction, or a further fleshing-out of some of the less loved model lines. 
