Very disappointed by the introduction of these Primaris Marines; there was not, nor has there ever been, a need for yet another marine+.
While I do really like the models, and they should look great as reinforcements to existing/new chapters, I just don't see the point of them at all rules-wise. If anything, all marines should be upgraded to 2 wounds as standard to better represent their fluff, with other elite armies receiving different boosts (e.g- dodges for Eldar for example), with terminators on 3 or 4, obviously with a boost in cost to compensate.
Instead it's looking a lot like we're going to finally get two wounds on terminators, and it still won't really distinguish them enough because now there's a special new marine squad competing with them.
If anything I'll probably be using all of my existing marines as Primaris Marines, assuming there are unit types that fit them. Otherwise I'm just not very happy about this. I mean, we've got Custodes coming into regular use FFS, the transhuman market has been well and truly saturated for years as it is.
What about some new Astra Militarum infantry kits? Finally updating Sisters of Battle/Ecclesiarchy?
Nope, not happy about this at all. Reinforcements for marines? Fine, but not this. Just doesn't sit right with me at all.
Latro_ wrote: they can't take special or heavy weapons XD hahahahhhhaa
I'm curious to see if they'll be following Horus Heresy Legion style building rules where you take Specials in a separate squad, and to get that you need to have taken a normal squad first.
Well it would be odd for these ultra marines to have horde bonus and any unit without some sort of horde rule to make up for it is better off MSU'ing anyway.
Latro_ wrote: they can't take special or heavy weapons XD
hahahahhhhaa
I would point out before you chuckle too hard that your post ONLY applies to the one single squad entry shown so far. I have zero doubt that GW will roll otu devastator, assault marine, and terminator equivalents over the next year.
Probably sooner than that since they already hinted. Maybe even at the launch other versions are available.
I'm just glad the numarines are not their own faction and will be incorporated into all existing chapters. Anyone else dying to know what a space wolf numarine would look like?
I honestly like how these guys look, except for one thing...they're still forcing me to drill out the barrels. Though their shoulders look the same size as the old marines. So I wonder if the upgrade kits shoulderpads/those from the dark angels/blood angels kits would fit on their shoulders? That makes it easy to customize them to fit whichever chapter they become a part of.
Im starting to guess that it will be a separate marine squad. so new marines will have there own tac,ass,dev squad variants. also dat plasma gun looks awesome.
Man im cheesed. i like EVERYTHING about the new models except the knee pads
it was almost perfect. ffs i need to figure out a way to convert it or something.
Agree. Even if the helmet is not my favourite, the models and weapons look awesome. I'm totally buy a box or two to run as "Not-NewMarines" in my Inquisition detachment with Celestine, Greyfax and Tempestus Scions.
Im starting to guess that it will be a separate marine squad. so new marines will have there own tac,ass,dev squad variants. also dat plasma gun looks awesome.
Man im cheesed. i like EVERYTHING about the new models except the knee pads
it was almost perfect. ffs i need to figure out a way to convert it or something.
Agree. Even if the helmet is not my favourite, the models and weapons look awesome. I'm totally buy a box or two to run as "Not-NewMarines" in my Inquisition detachment with Celestine, Greyfax and Tempestus Scions.
How can you hate the MkIV faceplate?
Jumping from "Is not my favourite" to "hate" is a big leap, don't you think?
buddha wrote: I'm just glad the numarines are not their own faction and will be incorporated into all existing chapters. Anyone else dying to know what a space wolf numarine would look like?
But there will also be new chapters made exclusively from Primaris boys.
I honestly like how these guys look, except for one thing...they're still forcing me to drill out the barrels. Though their shoulders look the same size as the old marines. So I wonder if the upgrade kits shoulderpads/those from the dark angels/blood angels kits would fit on their shoulders? That makes it easy to customize them to fit whichever chapter they become a part of.
We will forever be drilling out barrels unless they make all the weapons into two part assemblies.
ClockworkZion wrote: Looks like they're just slightly tougher Marines for a cost bump. Looks like they'll be cheaper than Rubric Marines though (power 6 to the Rubric's 8 for 5 models).
Power 4 or 5 for a tactical squad perhaps?
5 Rubrics and 5 Intercessors are actually the same power level- the base Rubric squad is +2 due to the sorcerer, I think.
I'm pretty sure they've already baselined a tactical squad at 5, haven't they?
A PL8 min squad of Rubrics vs a PL6 squad of Intercessors.
Conclusion: Obviously Rubrics are a hard counter to such a unit (as expected).
-Rubrics do more damage, but Intercessors will lose attacks more slowly.
-Intercessors will have a slight rapid fire range benefit.
-Melee is about even with the intercessors having more pistols to shoot with (in the shooting phase), but the staff weighing in heavily against 2 wound models.
Haravikk wrote: Very disappointed by the introduction of these Primaris Marines; there was not, nor has there ever been, a need for yet another marine+..
Really?
Forge World (and BL) basically lived the last 5 years from pulling random, "unneeded" Elite-variants of Space Marines from Deathshroud to Phoenix Guard to Cataphractii to Justaerin to Immortals to Suzerain to Firedrakes to Tartaros to Deythan to Rampagers to Palatine Blades to Sehkmet to whatever out of their collective behinds.
And they certainly haven't found a bottom of that particular demand yet. Quite the opposite, producing some FW highlights that actually made the rare jump to plastic.
Somebody will have found those sales numbers eventually.
Claiming there is no demand for different "Elite Space Marines" when any one of 20 or so in the FW sortiment apparently outsells everything they ever bothered to try for, say, Fantasy, taken together, seems a bit out of touch with what people buy and play out there.
Haravikk wrote: Very disappointed by the introduction of these Primaris Marines; there was not, nor has there ever been, a need for yet another marine+..
Really?
Forge World (and BL) basically lived the last 5 years from pulling random, "unneeded" Elite-variants of Space Marines from Deathshroud to Phoenix Guard to Cataphractii to Justaerin to Immortals to Suzerain to Firedrakes to Tartaros to Deythan to Rampagers to Palatine Blades to Sehkmet to whatever out of their collective behinds.
And they certainly haven't found a bottom of that particular demand yet. Quite the opposite, producing some FW highlights that actually made the rare jump to plastic.
Somebody will have found those sales numbers eventually.
Claiming there is no demand for different "Elite Space Marines" when any one of 20 or so in the FW sortiment apparently outsells everything they ever bothered to try for, say, Fantasy, taken together, seems a bit out of touch with what people buy and play out there.
Three of the types of marine you named are just bodyguards. Not really unjustified.
Galas wrote: Guys have you seen the new Starter box for the Primaris Marines? They look awesome!
Spoiler:
...
Har, har, very funny. Actually I'm going to laugh so hard at all the chapters that accept these guys into their ranks only to have every single one of them turn to chaos...
RG will then be all like "So THIS is how the Emperor felt with his greatest creation turned against him. CRAP! I reeeeeally should have seen this coming..."
I referenced soldier weeks ago when they first started mentioning nu-marines. Also what they aren't telling you is that they are going to focus on making nu-marine models from here on out.
It's only a matter of time until the old are cast off and outdated. If you should find the humans treatment of you deplorable the Tau Empire would be willing to give you the vengeance you seek. Since you will find no justice when your just an outdated product line.
Edit
I don't like them. One bit. From a lore perspective or a model perspective. They are well made, but I'm not much of a marine fan. I wonder how the Deathwatch will think of them.
Gamgee wrote: Since you will find no justice when your just an outdated product line.
So now Marines are shoving in on Sisters territory?
Yep. Oh it will start fine. Maybe... one or two final releases here and there. Then a slowing of updates. Then not replacing models that sell out or need updating ect. It will be a slow one, but inevitable. They'll still be around in the fluff to get shown up by the new-marines. I mean the whole point is the nu-marines are saving them. So space marines are demoted to IG tier.
Three of the types of marine you named are just bodyguards. Not really unjustified.
So random fluff change makes all the difference for Space-Marine-Plus-Unit-No.-524?
Think of them and use them as Guilliman's (or random Chapter Master's) bodyguards in your Space Marine army than.
Problem solved.
What you mean you never knew about the 20 year of fluff that protrubo of the iron warriors made tinker toy robots as body guard? And they just crammed those crappy 1980s sifi war of the world robots in there because they wanted to sell stuff that was cast by mistake?
I wonder if GW losing the Chapter House Studios lawsuit all those years ago has played a large part in the creation of these. If they sell them as Primius Marines that is a new name they can trademark and protect.
Gamgee wrote: Since you will find no justice when your just an outdated product line.
So now Marines are shoving in on Sisters territory?
Yep. Oh it will start fine. Maybe... one or two final releases here and there. Then a slowing of updates. Then not replacing models that sell out or need updating ect. It will be a slow one, but inevitable.
Gamgee wrote: Since you will find no justice when your just an outdated product line.
So now Marines are shoving in on Sisters territory?
Yep. Oh it will start fine. Maybe... one or two final releases here and there. Then a slowing of updates. Then not replacing models that sell out or need updating ect. It will be a slow one, but inevitable.
Then it's 20 years later and you're harassing GW on social media on when you're getting new models.....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
stonehorse wrote: I wonder if GW losing the Chapter House Studios lawsuit all those years ago has played a large part in the creation of these. If they sell them as Primius Marines that is a new name they can trademark and protect.
Adeptus Astartes already has a trademark, so no, this is likely not related.
This is more likely an effort to shake up the status quo and set the Imperium on a bright future going forward before intentionally crashing and burning it worse than it was before.
Me? I'm not buying these. I didn't want these. I've been fairly against the idea since first hearing about them. Same with Primarchs. I'm never touching one unless I have to move someone else's during a game.
It feels like even buying my Deathwatch models was a waste of time since I doubt they'll ever get a new model and they are already they aren't even the most elite of the elite anymore. It's definitely a real downer.
Gamgee wrote: Since you will find no justice when your just an outdated product line.
So now Marines are shoving in on Sisters territory?
Yep. Oh it will start fine. Maybe... one or two final releases here and there. Then a slowing of updates. Then not replacing models that sell out or need updating ect. It will be a slow one, but inevitable.
Was there anything that Marines even needed anymore? I feel like with their recent push they've given Marine players basically everything they ever could have asked for in plastic - redone base kits, chapter-specific kits, Deathwatch, flyers, Heresy armor, etc.
And it's not like it's a big deal to print a plastic kit as long as the mold holds out. I feel like classic Marines will still be with us for a long time, even if Primaris Marines are the ones getting the bulk of the story attention and updates.
They may be eventually phased out in the long run, but in the long run we're all gonna die, so....
Gamgee wrote: I referenced soldier weeks ago when they first started mentioning nu-marines. Also what they aren't telling you is that they are going to focus on making nu-marine models from here on out.
It's only a matter of time until the old are cast off and outdated. If you should find the humans treatment of you deplorable the Tau Empire would be willing to give you the vengeance you seek. Since you will find no justice when your just an outdated product line.
Edit
I don't like them. One bit. From a lore perspective or a model perspective. They are well made, but I'm not much of a marine fan. I wonder how the Deathwatch will think of them.
Spoiler:
The fluff is cast in iron. To remove old space marines we'd have to have another huge event to lays down the regular marine. And even if inevitable that won't happen for a long, long, long time.
There are several factors to consider as to why GW made this move. First off, Space Marines are the highest selling army. But most of the 40K community already owns an army. How do we get existing owners of Space Marine armies to buy more? Well we could invent more variations of Landraiders, vehicles, and equipment. That would make some money. Or, we could upscale Space Marines and make all the money! Just you wait. 2 years from now GW will phase out old marines and in their place upscaled new marines and vehicles will dominate the table top. Old marine players will get marine envy and eventually upscale their army or quit playing. While the only marines new players will know will be upscaled. Old marine models will be demoted to online only, and then phased out. This has already happened once (I actually own the old plastic Rhinos and Landraiders, and they are small). If you look to AOS as a guide, you see that at first they released PDF's for all the armies, then as new factions came out many players discovered that the new factions played better than the old, the synergies amongst units were much better. Also, scale creep happened. Look at the Blood Reavers (arguably the new version of Chaos Marauders) compared to the old Marauders. Hardly anyone today would buy old marauders rather than Blood Reavers, and if they wanted to they would have to buy direct online from GW. Ask Brettonian and Tomb King players how feasible it is that GW will phase out old models. Ironically, 10 years from now Forge World will resculpt old marines in their original scale and make a Warhammer 40K pre-Gulliman game to use them in. And charge twice as much for the figs!
Three of the types of marine you named are just bodyguards. Not really unjustified.
So random fluff change makes all the difference for Space-Marine-Plus-Unit-No.-524?
Think of them and use them as Guilliman's (or random Chapter Master's) bodyguards in your Space Marine army than.
Problem solved.
GW claimed previously to their detriment that the setting and story of their tabletop minis game doesn't matter. What's the over-under on Age of Sigmar's little shake-up?
That said, this is far from an egregious addition to the fluff. It's not even particularly unique or new in the 40k universe. But to be fair, that was the point of the original post that started this, and it's one I happen to agree with. Yeah, I understand they'd be stupid not to make some new Space Marines when that's apparently their one and only moneymaker - I just wish that it wasn't so.
If most 40k fans truly, truly just wanted a new Space Marines army rather than a new, original faction? Fair enough. For my part, I just want something new that's not a Space Marine?
Gamgee wrote: I referenced soldier weeks ago when they first started mentioning nu-marines. Also what they aren't telling you is that they are going to focus on making nu-marine models from here on out.
It's only a matter of time until the old are cast off and outdated. If you should find the humans treatment of you deplorable the Tau Empire would be willing to give you the vengeance you seek. Since you will find no justice when your just an outdated product line.
Edit
I don't like them. One bit. From a lore perspective or a model perspective. They are well made, but I'm not much of a marine fan. I wonder how the Deathwatch will think of them.
Spoiler:
The fluff is cast in iron. To remove old space marines we'd have to have another huge event to lays down the regular marine. And even if inevitable that won't happen for a long, long, long time.
I'll call it here at about a year after 8th drops before they start talking about how the "remnants" of the old marines have all but died out due to attrition, and the primaris marines become the bog standard.
This might possibly be the single laziest thing GW has done in the decade and a half I've been playing. Not the sleaziest or the money-grubbingest, but in terms of sheer unadulterated lack of effort, this is the Transformers 7: Moon of the Fallen Vengeance Part 2 of model releases.
We're going to make new marines!
So, all-new exciting special weapon options? A bold, interesting new aesthetic? A hideous character flaw? Some....kind of...anything?
Nawp. We're just gonna put 'em out there, and we know you're going to buy them. Because finally, you can have that satisfaction that you've been cruelly denied so long to have your thuper duper tholdiers be 5mm taller than little Jimmy's soldiers. Because it's not fair, his are the pointy bad guys so they shouldn't be allowed to be thuper duper!
Gamgee wrote: Me? I'm not buying these. I didn't want these. I've been fairly against the idea since first hearing about them. Same with Primarchs. I'm never touching one unless I have to move someone else's during a game.
It feels like even buying my Deathwatch models was a waste of time since I doubt they'll ever get a new model and they are already they aren't even the most elite of the elite anymore. It's definitely a real downer.
Same case scenario for me. Same feelings also. At least beside the recent Deathwatch I have no other space marines.
Bulldogging wrote: So this is why Marine bolters became rend -0, the "new, and I hope you didnt spend money on normal marines lately" marines have the correct stat bolters. Excuse me, cawl pattern bolters.
LOL
snark aside, I'd say they have it for balance reasons more than buffinf a new unit who could have just gotten -2 rend bolters if regular bolters were a -1...
Absolutely no snark. When things are obvious and humerus they can be addressed as such. -2 would have been too strong for basic marines and would have required TS to be -3(or even 4). Now marines have true bolters again, er Now the new marines have true bolters again.
I know they need to sell models to stay in business and I have nothing against that. I do, 100%, think they could have done this transition better.
Three of the types of marine you named are just bodyguards. Not really unjustified.
So random fluff change makes all the difference for Space-Marine-Plus-Unit-No.-524?
Think of them and use them as Guilliman's (or random Chapter Master's) bodyguards in your Space Marine army than.
Problem solved.
GW claimed previously to their detriment that the setting and story of their tabletop minis game doesn't matter. What's the over-under on Age of Sigmar's little shake-up?
That said, this is far from an egregious addition to the fluff. It's not even particularly unique or new in the 40k universe. But to be fair, that was the point of the original post that started this, and it's one I happen to agree with. Yeah, I understand they'd be stupid not to make some new Space Marines when that's apparently their one and only moneymaker - I just wish that it wasn't so.
If most 40k fans truly, truly just wanted a new Space Marines army rather than a new, original faction? Fair enough. For my part, I just want something new that's not a Space Marine?
Yeap I am so sick of space marines at this point. Even non-space marines chaos models would be interesting like dark adeptus mechanicus or anything xenos. Next year is probably when they do the new xenos stuff, but it's a long slog through half a year of spezz marines and chaos marines.
I would be down with an updated IG with new weapons of war from Cawl and Robute. Just to show humans can actually do something in the setting anymore except be lorded over by super humans.
Just for fun I did a spot the difference on the old numarine pic.
None of the new models have that drum, but they do share some other features. So either the next kits will have an even better boltgun or someone at GW was trolling (but only a little).
the_scotsman wrote: This might possibly be the single laziest thing GW has done in the decade and a half I've been playing. Not the sleaziest or the money-grubbingest, but in terms of sheer unadulterated lack of effort, this is the Transformers 7: Moon of the Fallen Vengeance Part 2 of model releases.
We're going to make new marines!
So, all-new exciting special weapon options? A bold, interesting new aesthetic? A hideous character flaw? Some....kind of...anything?
Nawp. We're just gonna put 'em out there, and we know you're going to buy them. Because finally, you can have that satisfaction that you've been cruelly denied so long to have your thuper duper tholdiers be 5mm taller than little Jimmy's soldiers. Because it's not fair, his are the pointy bad guys so they shouldn't be allowed to be thuper duper!
Hit the nail on the head here! This is the 'old GW' rearing it's ugly head...
Kijamon wrote: Models from the waist up are quite nice, from the waist down look like sigmarites and so it's a poor design.
The story hasn't moved far enough along to merit Marines 2.0 and they just seem very shoe horned and forced in. They could have milked this for months and possibly years before unleashing the kit.
Guilliman starts a secret project with Cawl but he needs supplies.
On the way to one place the Orks attack, bigger and better than ever they are led by a giant warboss - is he the new Beast? Could even be Ghazgull with a new cool model but put a new unit of big boys out to support the range.
They head to The Rock for these super secret supplies. They need the Lion's blood? How did they know? Cypher told them? Spooky. Oh no a nid invasion has happened and the Rock is in peril. Lots of new nid stuff.
They head to the Damocles gulf - what's this? mutated tau? New kit for them?
Etc etc and then once you've established how hard they fought for the materials, they get new marines.
Instead we've gone - Fenris damaged, Ultramar damaged - NEW MARINES TO SAVE THE DAY
No offense, but your idea is horrible. Your argument is basically make the narrative spend months/years just for the sake of bringing them, that sounds an appalling concept to me, specially to non-marine players.
I hate to pile on here, but I have to agree. People can't stand the long drawn out weeks until the new edition is dropped. How would they react to some fluff being drawn out for years until models are released? No only that, how many people that play are even into the fluff? A lot of players I know just play the game. They don't follow the larger story.
Daedalus81 wrote: Just for fun I did a spot the difference on the old numarine pic.
None of the new models have that drum, but they do share some other features. So either the next kits will have an even better boltgun or someone at GW was trolling (but only a little).
Spoiler:
The painted model isn't a Primaris Marine, but a current Marine, hence the differences and similarities.
Bulldogging wrote: So this is why Marine bolters became rend -0, the "new, and I hope you didnt spend money on normal marines lately" marines have the correct stat bolters. Excuse me, cawl pattern bolters.
LOL
snark aside, I'd say they have it for balance reasons more than buffinf a new unit who could have just gotten -2 rend bolters if regular bolters were a -1...
Absolutely no snark. When things are obvious and humerus they can be addressed as such. -2 would have been too strong for basic marines and would have required TS to be -3(or even 4). Now marines have true bolters again, er Now the new marines have true bolters again.
I know they need to sell models to stay in business and I have nothing against that. I do, 100%, think they could have done this transition better.
You claim this, but frankly I don't see anything that proves this assumption to be correct. Regular Marines are getting cheaper per model, and the new guys will be more expensive meaning smaller armies on the table (especially if you go pure Primaris).
And there is no reason -2 can't be balanced (look at Rubrics), as long as they're points costed correctly.
the_scotsman wrote: This might possibly be the single laziest thing GW has done in the decade and a half I've been playing. Not the sleaziest or the money-grubbingest, but in terms of sheer unadulterated lack of effort, this is the Transformers 7: Moon of the Fallen Vengeance Part 2 of model releases.
We're going to make new marines!
So, all-new exciting special weapon options? A bold, interesting new aesthetic? A hideous character flaw? Some....kind of...anything?
Nawp. We're just gonna put 'em out there, and we know you're going to buy them. Because finally, you can have that satisfaction that you've been cruelly denied so long to have your thuper duper tholdiers be 5mm taller than little Jimmy's soldiers. Because it's not fair, his are the pointy bad guys so they shouldn't be allowed to be thuper duper!
Hit the nail on the head here! This is the 'old GW' rearing it's ugly head...
Except Rubrics got taller. Death Guard won't be far behind.
Three of the types of marine you named are just bodyguards. Not really unjustified.
So random fluff change makes all the difference for Space-Marine-Plus-Unit-No.-524?
Think of them and use them as Guilliman's (or random Chapter Master's) bodyguards in your Space Marine army than.
Problem solved.
GW claimed previously to their detriment that the setting and story of their tabletop minis game doesn't matter. What's the over-under on Age of Sigmar's little shake-up?
That said, this is far from an egregious addition to the fluff. It's not even particularly unique or new in the 40k universe. But to be fair, that was the point of the original post that started this, and it's one I happen to agree with. Yeah, I understand they'd be stupid not to make some new Space Marines when that's apparently their one and only moneymaker - I just wish that it wasn't so.
If most 40k fans truly, truly just wanted a new Space Marines army rather than a new, original faction? Fair enough. For my part, I just want something new that's not a Space Marine?
Yeap I am so sick of space marines at this point. Even non-space marines chaos models would be interesting like dark adeptus mechanicus or anything xenos. Next year is probably when they do the new xenos stuff, but it's a long slog through half a year of spezz marines and chaos marines.
I would be down with an updated IG with new weapons of war from Cawl and Robute. Just to show humans can actually do something in the setting anymore except be lorded over by super humans.
Of course, on the other hand, I'm a longtime Xenos player who feels like this is the first time I'm interested in actually collecting Marines. The feeling may pass but it's there - these guys feel like they live up to what the reputation Astartes should have. I love it when they do new armies like Mechanicus and Harlequins, but these dudes are turning the head of at least one person who previously wasn't interested in Marines.
I mean, I would also be headcanoning them into being regular Astartes because my fluff campaign setting is set earlier in the timeline, but still.
Daedalus81 wrote: Just for fun I did a spot the difference on the old numarine pic.
None of the new models have that drum, but they do share some other features. So either the next kits will have an even better boltgun or someone at GW was trolling (but only a little).
Spoiler:
The painted model isn't a Primaris Marine, but a current Marine, hence the differences and similarities.
Right, but there are still some missing pieces that either make it a troll or yet to be unreleased kits (which we know some are coming).
Will have to see the points on this. If old marines are like 13 pts and nu-marines are like 15 points for an extra wound and betta bolter, then yes, these are defacto replacement. I have little faith that GW will price them appropriately and will make them under costed to boost sales. Thankfully I don't play loyalist marines anymore...
You claim this, but frankly I don't see anything that proves this assumption to be correct. Regular Marines are getting cheaper per model, and the new guys will be more expensive meaning smaller armies on the table (especially if you go pure Primaris).
And there is no reason -2 can't be balanced (look at Rubrics), as long as they're points costed correctly.
Because then everything has to scale accordingly. Not just a couple bolters.
Orthon wrote: Will have to see the points on this. If old marines are like 13 pts and nu-marines are like 15 points for an extra wound and betta bolter, then yes, these are defacto replacement. I have little faith that GW will price them appropriately and will make them under costed to boost sales. Thankfully I don't play loyalist marines anymore...
I'm betting they'll be quite close to Rubrics - 20 points.
I mean, I would also be headcanoning them into being regular Astartes because my fluff campaign setting is set earlier in the timeline, but still.
Yeah there's a lot of that 'headcanon' stuff going around the thread! Methinks maybe the lore of the Primaris marines isn't fitting quite as seamlessly into their setting as GW wishes it would...
The T’au* are known currently for their deadly firepower and mobility. They utilise advanced Battlesuits to level blistering volleys of smart missiles and energy weapons into the enemies of the Greater Good. Riptides particularly–often seen in the Riptide Wing formation–are a common site. The combination of resilience and firepower is a potent cocktail that has left many a pair of smoking boots where once a foe stood. Those that do survive the fusillade to cross the battlefield must withstand the T’au’s other shooting phase, otherwise known as Supporting Fire with overwatch. However, those intrepid warriors that make it through all of that often strike the physically weaker T’au down, as melee is certainly not their forte….apart from the stomps dished out by the Stormsurge. That guy certainly never skipped leg day in the gym!
How do T’au play in new Warhammer 40,000? Will they still be the kings of ranged warfare?
Well, let’s start with the biggest and baddest suit in their arsenal, the Stormsurge. This beast of a suit currently terrorises the tables and will continue to do so in the new Warhammer 40,000, albeit in different ways. The Stormsurge has amazing firepower with its 10 weapons…and yes, I said 10 weapons, each of which can fire on a different target. The Anchors currently allow the Stormsurge to shoot twice, but in the new edition, this has been changed to a more reasonable (but still powerful!) +1 to hit in the Shooting phase, which works great when paired with one Markerlight hit on a target, allowing any T’au unit to reroll 1’s when firing on that unit. BS 3+ and re-rolling 1’s with 10 ranged weapons is enough to render most units to smoking ash. The Stormsurge also has the Walking Battleship special rule which allows him to Fall Back from combat and still shoot, while also ignoring the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons. Stormsurges will remain a solid choice in the new edition.
The XV8 Crisis Battlesuits are next up on the docket. I consider these suits to be the iconic T’au unit, and the firepower from these guys will be very impressive. Very impressive indeed. They each can take 3 weapons (which again, you can fire all of them!). May I recommend a flamer plus two other weapons of your choice? My preference is dual missile pods for that lovely AP-1 and D3 damage per shot! The flamers give you nasty Overwatch defence, as they auto-hit incoming units that charge within their range. They can also be used offensively to clear objectives.
A unit of three Crisis Suits paired up with Markerlights will bring down even large vehicles relatively quickly. Multiple Crisis Suit units also work well together since supporting fire is still around, now called “For the Greater Good.” All those flamer hits from multiple XV8s into a charging unit is extremely powerful and will stop some of the strongest assault units dead in their tracks. Oh, and did I forget to mention they have the Fly keyword? This allows them to Fall Back from combat and still shoot at full effect. Brutal! I am loving how these guys play, and they will be scattered all across the tables in T’au armies.
Lastly, I want to talk about Sniper Drones. When paired with the T’au HQ’s such as the Cadre Fireblade they will bring down those pesky support characters with deadly efficiency even if they are hiding behind their infantry. The 48″ range on their Sniper weapons, plus their fast movement, means they will be filling those characters with lead (or plasma?) a lot faster than snipers from other factions. They will be a truly deadly force in your army that will strike fear in opposing characters. Have a look at their datasheet, here:
Overall, the T’au will play relatively similarly to how they do now. They will have a lot more tricks up their sleeves and you’ll see a wider variety of units on the board than you currently do. They’ll catch a lot of people off guard with some of their cool special rules and tactical flexibility. Stop resisting and join the Greater Good, today.
Come back on Wednesday for some insights on the insidious Drukhari.
You claim this, but frankly I don't see anything that proves this assumption to be correct. Regular Marines are getting cheaper per model, and the new guys will be more expensive meaning smaller armies on the table (especially if you go pure Primaris).
And there is no reason -2 can't be balanced (look at Rubrics), as long as they're points costed correctly.
Because then everything has to scale accordingly. Not just a couple bolters.
If Marines got what people are calling "real bolters" with -1AP, then the new guys would have gotten buffed Bolters at -2. Claiming the 0AP is solely to buff new Marines is silly.
The T’au* are known currently for their deadly firepower and mobility. They utilise advanced Battlesuits to level blistering volleys of smart missiles and energy weapons into the enemies of the Greater Good. Riptides particularly–often seen in the Riptide Wing formation–are a common site. The combination of resilience and firepower is a potent cocktail that has left many a pair of smoking boots where once a foe stood. Those that do survive the fusillade to cross the battlefield must withstand the T’au’s other shooting phase, otherwise known as Supporting Fire with overwatch. However, those intrepid warriors that make it through all of that often strike the physically weaker T’au down, as melee is certainly not their forte….apart from the stomps dished out by the Stormsurge. That guy certainly never skipped leg day in the gym!
How do T’au play in new Warhammer 40,000? Will they still be the kings of ranged warfare?
Well, let’s start with the biggest and baddest suit in their arsenal, the Stormsurge. This beast of a suit currently terrorises the tables and will continue to do so in the new Warhammer 40,000, albeit in different ways. The Stormsurge has amazing firepower with its 10 weapons…and yes, I said 10 weapons, each of which can fire on a different target. The Anchors currently allow the Stormsurge to shoot twice, but in the new edition, this has been changed to a more reasonable (but still powerful!) +1 to hit in the Shooting phase, which works great when paired with one Markerlight hit on a target, allowing any T’au unit to reroll 1’s when firing on that unit. BS 3+ and re-rolling 1’s with 10 ranged weapons is enough to render most units to smoking ash. The Stormsurge also has the Walking Battleship special rule which allows him to Fall Back from combat and still shoot, while also ignoring the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons. Stormsurges will remain a solid choice in the new edition.
The XV8 Crisis Battlesuits are next up on the docket. I consider these suits to be the iconic T’au unit, and the firepower from these guys will be very impressive. Very impressive indeed. They each can take 3 weapons (which again, you can fire all of them!). May I recommend a flamer plus two other weapons of your choice? My preference is dual missile pods for that lovely AP-1 and D3 damage per shot! The flamers give you nasty Overwatch defence, as they auto-hit incoming units that charge within their range. They can also be used offensively to clear objectives.
A unit of three Crisis Suits paired up with Markerlights will bring down even large vehicles relatively quickly. Multiple Crisis Suit units also work well together since supporting fire is still around, now called “For the Greater Good.” All those flamer hits from multiple XV8s into a charging unit is extremely powerful and will stop some of the strongest assault units dead in their tracks. Oh, and did I forget to mention they have the Fly keyword? This allows them to Fall Back from combat and still shoot at full effect. Brutal! I am loving how these guys play, and they will be scattered all across the tables in T’au armies.
Lastly, I want to talk about Sniper Drones. When paired with the T’au HQ’s such as the Cadre Fireblade they will bring down those pesky support characters with deadly efficiency even if they are hiding behind their infantry. The 48″ range on their Sniper weapons, plus their fast movement, means they will be filling those characters with lead (or plasma?) a lot faster than snipers from other factions. They will be a truly deadly force in your army that will strike fear in opposing characters. Have a look at their datasheet, here:
Overall, the T’au will play relatively similarly to how they do now. They will have a lot more tricks up their sleeves and you’ll see a wider variety of units on the board than you currently do. They’ll catch a lot of people off guard with some of their cool special rules and tactical flexibility. Stop resisting and join the Greater Good, today.
Come back on Wednesday for some insights on the insidious Drukhari.
Sniper drones are their own things. wonder what happened to the drone controller spotter guy.
-Tau still have supporting fire, gross
-No double shooting Stormsurges, yay
-At least two units can Fall Back and Shoot, solid bet that this will be standard on all Suits
-Drones can Look Out
And the biggest one in my book: the <Sept> Keyword makes me think we'll see "Chapter Tactics" for Tau. Keep an eye on that one.
I mean, I would also be headcanoning them into being regular Astartes because my fluff campaign setting is set earlier in the timeline, but still.
Yeah there's a lot of that 'headcanon' stuff going around the thread! Methinks maybe the lore of the Primaris marines isn't fitting quite as seamlessly into their setting as GW wishes it would...
I mean, no setting developments from 999.M41 would have really impacted my campaign 'headcanon' anyway, so....
I think a lot depends on how people feel about the new state of the Guilliman-lead Imperium and the Indomitus crusade. I think the concept has some appeal but since it isn't flushed out yet it's hard to get fully invested in the new stuff. And since most people suspect that these models started their lives as Truescale Marines they're pretty easy to become backwards compatible.
ClockworkZion wrote: [
If Marines got what people are calling "real bolters" with -1AP, then the new guys would have gotten buffed Bolters at -2. Claiming the 0AP is solely to buff new Marines is silly.
They're all coming though!
You're still missing the point. If regular bolters were rend 1 and these were rend 2, then heavy bolters would need to be rend 2, and missile launchers rend 3, and so on. And then everyone's armor would need to be better, because all the guns got better.
Lots of info in that article compared to the other faction focuses
Markerlight changes, Rerolling 1s instead of increasing BS. Stormsurges getting +1 to hit instead of anchored. Steath from the sniper drones is -1 to hit them instead of a + to their save
Man feth the Tau Auxiliaries rumors. We need the next generation crisis suit and Riptide asap. Capable of taking two twin-linked weapons, 2+ save standard on all suits because of a standardized iridium armor, and a host of other upgrades.
...Well, GW finally had a reasonable opportunity to update a Marine profile so they fit, well, all the flavor stuff, but instead of making it so Marines were just universally rebooted with appropriate stats, they're making a new subsection that, I'm assuming, CSMs, GKs, and other specialists don't have access to? And Terminators just got bumped to 2 wounds, but then these guys come around? Seems like the same issue as centurions creating a new midpoint that will step on a lot of toes, except these aren't ugly.
-Tau still have supporting fire, gross
-No double shooting Stormsurges, yay
-At least two units can Fall Back and Shoot, solid bet that this will be standard on all Suits
-Drones can Look Out
And the biggest one in my book: the <Sept> Keyword makes me think we'll see "Chapter Tactics" for Tau. Keep an eye on that one.
This gives me a great hope that rules for different regiments, klans and craftworlds will exist. Heck maybe even cabals and wych cult rules? One can truly hope in this times.
Gamgee wrote: Sniper Drones with a 5+ to hit? What the gak is this. They were our only BS 5 unit int he entire codex.
*sigh*
This is bs. I was finally looking forward to actually using them and then they just gak on them. No point in even taking them.
I bet the rest of the army is 5+ an 6+ only to hit with ranged weapons too.
No longer boosting to hit on ML. I think the Tau are probably fethed this edition. They will never survive combat to fall back from and shoot back at.
I knew this was going to happen.
Yup. Another concern (at least for me) is whether or not suits finally get BS4 as standard. It always felt off that an experienced tau warrior in a big robot suit with nightvision and advanced sensors and targeting shot the same as a guardsmen with one month of basic training and an ironsight on his lasgun. In previous editions, I always took the BS +1 upgrade equipment but they got rid of that in the last two back to back practically codex releases. I'm not holding my breath but there is still a chance they didn't screw it up.
ClockworkZion wrote: [
If Marines got what people are calling "real bolters" with -1AP, then the new guys would have gotten buffed Bolters at -2. Claiming the 0AP is solely to buff new Marines is silly.
They're all coming though!
You're still missing the point. If regular bolters were rend 1 and these were rend 2, then heavy bolters would need to be rend 2, and missile launchers rend 3, and so on. And then everyone's armor would need to be better, because all the guns got better.
Or they'd just point regular Marines a little more than before to compensate.
That said, I still refuse to accept this arguement as "proof" that the change was done to buff the Primaris marines. It's more likely done to balance the standard Marine against horde armies.
Desubot wrote: Sniper drones are their own things. wonder what happened to the drone controller spotter guy.
Becomes a Character that buffs units of Sniper Drones?
I'm wondering if my drone controllers will *poof* magically become fireblades given the statement in the article. It is odd to not see them in the unit entry and a bit concerning.
Why are we getting new Marines? Answer is simple, it's the 30th anniversary of 40K. Nuff said.
Think the Primaris Marine introduction is lazy? Aspect Warriors were introduced like Buffy's little sister...BAM, there they are, like they've always been.</retcon>
I'll probably buy the box if the loyalist marines are Primaris. I think it might be a good time to start a Deathguard army as there will probably be lots of cheap ones for sale.
Orthon wrote: Very little mention of what they are doing with Riptides in that Tau article. Riptide nerf, inc?
Hell naw son. We're goign to need those more than ever. If the Tau army is not made native BS4 then this armies viability is dead.
Oh. My. God.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Tell you what. Tau is 4+ to hit. How do I know? Drones are 5+ to hit and were BS2 previously. There is your confirmation to go sell your models.
Not great, but at least a few things have been toned down. 1 Marker light is re-roll 1's, that is nice. The Stormsurge can no longer fire twice when it anchors, but rather gets a +1 to hit.
However, it seems that suits can flee from combat and get to shoot. Which frankly is sounding horrendous, especially as when assaulted again that means having to endure overwatch again, and also overwatch from nearby units as they didn't lose that broken ability.
Tyranids better get something good to be able to counter this other wise we are dead in the water against Tau again... I doubt our units will be able to wipe out a unit in one round of combat.
Orthon wrote: Very little mention of what they are doing with Riptides in that Tau article. Riptide nerf, inc?
Hell naw son. We're goign to need those more than ever. If the Tau army is not made native BS4 then this armies viability is dead.
methinks this is more than a wee bit melodramatic there, particularly as the Tau, much like Eldar and Necrons, have never not been treated very kindly (at least as a whole) with every single update they have ever had.
Well the only thing I've seen is Tau nerfs in this update. Even things that didn't need them like the sniper drones. Why? They are already so useless to be never used so they had to make them worse?
I'm so sick of this BS.
Yeap I'm definitely going to AoS for awhile. I think 40k is going to gak. Too much marines focus. I guess Eldar can come too as usual. Everything else will just die off and stay in the background I guess. 30k 2.0 incoming.
Desubot wrote: Sniper drones are their own things. wonder what happened to the drone controller spotter guy.
Becomes a Character that buffs units of Sniper Drones?
I'm wondering if my drone controllers will *poof* magically become fireblades given the statement in the article. It is odd to not see them in the unit entry and a bit concerning.
If I'm going to be honest, I really hope that this is a sign there's a plastic kit on the horizon.
I could see the Firesight Marksman becoming a unit box like the Raptors for Stormcast Eternals, where it's the unit proper(Raptors) and a second unit(Aetherwing birdies) that are rolled into the same box.
They show super strong stuff for everyone else, but when it comes to the Tau they show the nerfs. Why the heck would that inspire any confidence? At least show us something good to keep us calm.
Not calming down until I know we're not gutted. Not buying any more 40k if the final Tau rules are just terrible and they are one of the few non-viable factions like in AoS.
Gamgee wrote: They show super strong stuff for everyone else, but when it comes to the Tau they show the nerfs. Why the heck would that inspire any confidence? At least show us something good to keep us calm.
Not calming down until I know we're not gutted.
Crisis Battlesuits can retreat and still shoot. Mind you, Tau also kept Supporting Fire.
Gamgee wrote: They show super strong stuff for everyone else, but when it comes to the Tau they show the nerfs. Why the heck would that inspire any confidence? At least show us something good to keep us calm.
Not calming down until I know we're not gutted. Not buying any more 40k if the final Tau rules are just terrible and they are one of the few non-viable factions like in AoS.
Rules changing from one thing to another isn't always a nerf. Stormsurges being able to retreat and shoot is a buff, since they'll never be wiped in one round (except maybe to another Superheavy or a Bloodthirster) and won't be made useless for a turn. Crisis Suits can fire all 3 guns independently at different targets natively, which is a pretty hefty buff by itself. Drones can take wounds for any nearby unit, not just the ones they're purchased for (assuming Saviour Protocols is on other Drone types as well).
Supporting fire is useless to me as a mobile player. It just encourages gunline play.
Also crisis suits survive melee? Are you crazy? The new super turbo mortal wound melee insanity going around? I think your crazy.
That rule is just there to pacify us. Even in 7th ed Stormsurges are the weakest of the big super heavies durability wise. The sniper drones were also nerfed in damage they used to wound on 4+ because of their sniper rule. This sucks.
Tau "surviving" melee to shoot. Good joke. Very good. How about you try and shoot more than Tau now in 7th edition as Khorne Deamonkin. Good joke man.
Yeah but paying 12 points for an ablative drone? Or giving up the mediocre ML support we do have now? Is it worth it? What if they increase drone costs even higher? Doesn't seem like a viable idea to me even in 8th. No one takes drones in squads. No reason to.
I don't actually want them to release the new 40k. The daily snippets have made this thread an enormously entertaining read on my commute. I'll miss it when everything's available.
You can bet your heinie the sniper drone controller is a separate unit that provides a bonus to them. Already plenty of examples of this in AoS.
Gamgee wrote: Well the only thing I've seen is Tau nerfs in this update. Even things that didn't need them like the sniper drones. Why? They are already so useless to be never used so they had to make them worse?
I'm so sick of this BS.
Hahaha!!!
Please tell me you are trolling, and this is a joke.
It isn't a nerf, but rather an attempt to balance what is frankly a faction that is far too powerful. As Tyranid player I am sick of games against Tau where my force is render useless, and from what I have seen I don't honestly think that is going to change. Sure my army may last longer then 3 turns... so that is a gain I guess?
-Models-
Look great, the proportions look better and the armour looks like a good progression for Astartes power armour.
I especially like the Bolt Rifle.
and selfishly from looking at the pics they don't seem like they will be much larger than my own “tru” scale attempts.
-Rules-
I like the rules,
Their not a lot better than normal marines and i appreciate the move towards what i consider a fluffy marines rules to be.
-Fluff-
And here’s the bit i don't like, all I'm getting from the articles is “OMG their the best”
Not enough is known about the Fluff on them yet for me to do a full eye roll yet but were def at a half roll.
There needs to be a but….
OMG their the best but….
…..we cant make any more
….They have a shorter life span
….they lack initiative (as in the ability to think outside of the norm not strike last in combat ),
……..their just meat robots. (Girlyman and Cawl would prefer this but would make poorer soldiers in the long run)
…..their Thunder Warriors so they will go crazy/ have an aneurysm soon without warning.
Also IMHO one of the first pieces of fluff with them needs to be older marine schooling one/ showing one up through his experience etc then there will be an eye roll of epic proportions
-Overall-
The fluff on them is not exciting me but the model and rules to run a closer representation to how marines are in the fluff defiantly does.
To be fair, it has never made sense that veterans, ie Battlesuit pilots, aren't BS4 like veterans from comparable races... But it's been balanced out by the impact of markers. Making most units BS5 when using one light would be absurd.
If lights are toned down, only low ranking guys should have BS3 from a fluff perspective.
Future War Cultist wrote: I love the look and stats of the new marines. I just hope there will be enough releases to make a full army out of them.
No way GW is going to miss that opportunity! Rest assured the Guillimarines will likely have a half-year solid of new releases, with a whole slew of Space Marine units and vehicles that will look the same but with a slight proportional shift.
Man it's gonna be confusing for people new to the hobby. "Why are my friend's new Space Marines way different than the Deathwatch guys I got for Christmas?"
We know that the Stormsurge has been nerfed or at least reworked. Missile Pods (and also autocannons) are D3 wounds -1 save, so they are now better at dealing with light vehicles. Crisis suits are better as they can fire 3 weapons a turn. Markerlights just grant re-roll 1s to hit. Sniper drones got buffed with more movement and can snipe out characters.
I expect the Fireblade to give +1 to hit in a bubble to 'Tau Empire' units. I wonder how multiple markerlights work, as most markerlight carriers are dedicated carriers. It would be excessive to get 4 markerlight hits that only allowed one set of reroll 1s. This might be the age of special weapons on Pathfinders!
Gamgee wrote: They show super strong stuff for everyone else, but when it comes to the Tau they show the nerfs. Why the heck would that inspire any confidence? At least show us something good to keep us calm.
Not calming down until I know we're not gutted.
Crisis Battlesuits can retreat and still shoot. Mind you, Tau also kept Supporting Fire.
Stormsurge has 10 weapons and they can all fire at separate targets?
I mean, I know most people won't pull shenanigans like this, but you know you'll eventually play someone that will make you rue the day 'split fire' became a thing!
Kanluwen wrote: If I'm going to be honest, I really hope that this is a sign there's a plastic kit on the horizon.
I could see the Firesight Marksman becoming a unit box like the Raptors for Stormcast Eternals, where it's the unit proper(Raptors) and a second unit(Aetherwing birdies) that are rolled into the same box.
I'd be fine with that as long as the points costs were reasonable and it wasn't a burden on the force org chart (or whatever they're calling them in nuhammer) and they are assigned independently as an option (ala the old commissars in IG).
Still working on the Q&A Roundup for Sunday and today, but thought this was worth sharing early:
Q: One d6 for both battlecanon and frag grenade? Why?
A: Hey Dalibor,
We take it you mean, as currently they have different sizes blasts?
A lot of weapons have been re-aligned in this edition.
The rest of the stats on those weapons are quite different.
Battlecannons also do multiple damage per hit, making them very useful against tough foes, where the frag grenade lacks stopping power, but is good for clearing light infantry - which is what it should do.
You'll have the rules for all guns soon enough, and you can compare the s[t]ats with full context.
Gamgee wrote: Well the only thing I've seen is Tau nerfs in this update. Even things that didn't need them like the sniper drones. Why? They are already so useless to be never used so they had to make them worse?
I'm so sick of this BS.
Yeap I'm definitely going to AoS for awhile. I think 40k is going to gak. Too much marines focus. I guess Eldar can come too as usual. Everything else will just die off and stay in the background I guess. 30k 2.0 incoming.
Good riddance! What a jumped-up, OTT reaction to tiny bit of information. The absolute worse kind of reactionary, inflammatory nonsense which plagues threads like these and are the reason GW hasn't shared information in the past. My first thoughts on Drones were "cool, they can snipe characters, 10 different attacks from the surge going to different targets, 3 firing weapons on suits"
Supporting fire is useless. If your wasting your ML on it the game is already over. It doesn't help mobile suit lists any either. It's a gimmick that is barely even used in the tournament scene.
"If" crisis suits can survive melee this means the Tau are a lot more melee viable as a whole, but I doubt it. They will probably just die nearly instantly unless crisis suits have like 4-6 wounds or something.
Gamgee wrote: Supporting fire is useless to me as a mobile player. It just encourages gunline play.
"It doesn't affect me, so it must be a nerf"
Also crisis suits survive melee? Are you crazy? The new super turbo mortal wound melee insanity going around? I think your crazy.
"I don't know what anything is going to look like so I'm just going to assume it sucks for me. This is a nerf based on nothing."
Grow up.
That rule is just there to pacify us. Even in 7th ed Stormsurges are the weakest of the big super heavies durability wise. The sniper drones were also nerfed in damage they used to wound on 4+ because of their sniper rule. This sucks.
Stormsurges were brought in 2s more often than Knights even saw the freaking tabletop. Just because they weren't as broken as Wraithknights didn't mean they were garbage. You're clearly trolling with this.
Snipers auto-wounding on 4s was dumb, and having a Strength is much better. They'll wound tough things on 4+ and any other infantry (including most characters) on 4+ or 3+, so they're as good or better than currently except against MCs which no one freaking brought in 7th.
Tau "surviving" melee to shoot. Good joke. Very good. How about you try and shoot more than Tau now in 7th edition as Khorne Deamonkin. Good joke man.
Maybe you should learn to play because if you're losing to Daemonkin as Tau, you might not even know what game this is.
-Models-
Look great, the proportions look better and the armour looks like a good progression for Astartes power armour.
I especially like the Bolt Rifle.
and selfishly from looking at the pics they don't seem like they will be much larger than my own “tru” scale attempts.
-Rules-
I like the rules,
Their not a lot better than normal marines and i appreciate the move towards what i consider a fluffy marines rules to be.
-Fluff-
And here’s the bit i don't like, all I'm getting from the articles is “OMG their the best”
Not enough is known about the Fluff on them yet for me to do a full eye roll yet but were def at a half roll.
There needs to be a but….
OMG their the best but….
…..we cant make any more
….They have a shorter life span
….they lack initiative (as in the ability to think outside of the norm not strike last in combat ),
……..their just meat robots. (Girlyman and Cawl would prefer this but would make poorer soldiers in the long run)
…..their Thunder Warriors so they will go crazy/ have an aneurysm soon without warning.
Also IMHO one of the first pieces of fluff with them needs to be older marine schooling one/ showing one up through his experience etc then there will be an eye roll of epic proportions
-Overall-
The fluff on them is not exciting me but the model and rules to run a closer representation to how marines are in the fluff defiantly does.
Im pretty sure a lot of the "fluff" popping up is just bloggers excitement. they seem very excited and are probably over exaggerating things.
Gamgee wrote: Sniper Drones with a 5+ to hit? What the gak is this. They were our only BS 5 unit int he entire codex.
*sigh*
This is bs. I was finally looking forward to actually using them and then they just gak on them. No point in even taking them.
I bet the rest of the army is 5+ an 6+ only to hit with ranged weapons too.
No longer boosting to hit on ML. I think the Tau are probably fethed this edition. They will never survive combat to fall back from and shoot back at.
I knew this was going to happen.
Yup. Another concern (at least for me) is whether or not suits finally get BS4 as standard. It always felt off that an experienced tau warrior in a big robot suit with nightvision and advanced sensors and targeting shot the same as a guardsmen with one month of basic training and an ironsight on his lasgun. In previous editions, I always took the BS +1 upgrade equipment but they got rid of that in the last two back to back practically codex releases. I'm not holding my breath but there is still a chance they didn't screw it up.
It always made me chuckle that Tau lack depth perception, yet their prefered mode of combat is shooting
Honestly, I hope tau remain at 4+ to hit standard on everything but drones (5+). With suits now being able to take and fire 3 weapon systems, AND leave combat and still fire AFTER overwatching multiple times with support fire, they really need to not hit as efficiently as marines to remain balanced. Remember, your suits will have 2-3 wounds standard and now get their saves from most things in combat and ONLY suffer battle shock sue to lost modles meaning your not going to get sweeping advanced again and are unlikely to suffer battleshock. So either they wipe you out, or you bounce away and still get to light them up.
Gamgee wrote: Supporting fire is useless. If your wasting your ML on it the game is already over.
...lol?
Supporting Fire is far from useless. And it's not like using Markerlights during a Supporting Fire was worthless, seeing as how Markerlight hits only lasted until the end of a turn.
It doesn't help mobile suit lists any either.
...lol?
It's a gimmick that is barely even used in the tournament scene.
Because the tournament scene is based upon tabling someone ASAP.
"If" crisis suits can survive melee this means the Tau are a lot more melee viable as a whole, but I doubt it. They will probably just die nearly instantly unless crisis suits have like 4-6 wounds or something.
You know that not everything can deal out Mortal Wounds, right?
They were good because of "swapping them" and their high damage output not survivability. They had to bought in twos because when one got wounded too much another would go up front to take wounds. Knights can't be taken in squads if I recall or they probably would do that too.
If they somehow made it into melee I would be evaporated. Unless the Tau get significantly stronger across the board to survive melee and actually shoot on the retreat odds are I'm not making use of that rule much.
Also if the stormsurge is shooting 10 guns that are atr 2 ap - then what does it matter? Granted I doubt it will be that bad.
It all depends on what the stats of the Tau are now, but I have a real bad feeling from that drone stat line.
Gamgee wrote: They show super strong stuff for everyone else, but when it comes to the Tau they show the nerfs. Why the heck would that inspire any confidence? At least show us something good to keep us calm.
Not calming down until I know we're not gutted. Not buying any more 40k if the final Tau rules are just terrible and they are one of the few non-viable factions like in AoS.
The fact that you see nerfs tells us all we need to know about how your reacting. What I saw is terrifying for anyone that doesn't have a decent 100% focused shooting army.
Future War Cultist wrote: I love the look and stats of the new marines. I just hope there will be enough releases to make a full army out of them.
No way GW is going to miss that opportunity! Rest assured the Guillimarines will likely have a half-year solid of new releases, with a whole slew of Space Marine units and vehicles that will look the same but with a slight proportional shift.
Man it's gonna be confusing for people new to the hobby. "Why are my friend's new Space Marines way different than the Deathwatch guys I got for Christmas?"
Yeah!!! They'll get their own bikes, jump packs, vehicles and terminator armor in time. I hope the bikes look like those HH ones because they are swwweeeeeeettt!
changemod wrote: To be fair, it has never made sense that veterans, ie Battlesuit pilots, aren't BS4 like veterans from comparable races... But it's been balanced out by the impact of markers. Making most units BS5 when using one light would be absurd.
If lights are toned down, only low ranking guys should have BS3 from a fluff perspective.
Veterans from comparable races aren't touting around two or three weapon systems that are effectively specials in squads though.
BS3 is what, fluffwise from back in the day, Tau are with tech enhancing them.
Gamgee wrote: Well the only thing I've seen is Tau nerfs in this update. Even things that didn't need them like the sniper drones. Why? They are already so useless to be never used so they had to make them worse?
I'm so sick of this BS.
Yeap I'm definitely going to AoS for awhile. I think 40k is going to gak. Too much marines focus. I guess Eldar can come too as usual. Everything else will just die off and stay in the background I guess. 30k 2.0 incoming.
Weren't sniper drones already hitting on 5's? What buffed them was the controller nearby. We have no reason not to believe that will be the same. They probably just made him a separate selection so they didn't have mixed units on a single datasheet.
Future War Cultist wrote: I love the look and stats of the new marines. I just hope there will be enough releases to make a full army out of them.
No way GW is going to miss that opportunity! Rest assured the Guillimarines will likely have a half-year solid of new releases, with a whole slew of Space Marine units and vehicles that will look the same but with a slight proportional shift.
Man it's gonna be confusing for people new to the hobby. "Why are my friend's new Space Marines way different than the Deathwatch guys I got for Christmas?"
Yeah!!! They'll get their own bikes, jump packs, vehicles and terminator armor in time. I hope the bikes look like those HH ones because they are swwweeeeeeettt!
im soooooo hoping for a normal terminator armor reboot sooooooooooooo bad its driving me nuts.
Gamgee wrote: They show super strong stuff for everyone else, but when it comes to the Tau they show the nerfs. Why the heck would that inspire any confidence? At least show us something good to keep us calm.
Not calming down until I know we're not gutted. Not buying any more 40k if the final Tau rules are just terrible and they are one of the few non-viable factions like in AoS.
The fact that you see nerfs tells us all we need to know about how your reacting. What I saw is terrifying for anyone that doesn't have a decent 100% focused shooting army.
The fact that everybody is attacking me says more about why I'm so defensive in the first place.
Q: So what happens to the Firesight Marksman? If every model is still playable, and he's not in a sniper drone team, then...?
Also, at a 5+ to-hit, I don't imagine the sniper drones are going to have anyone quaking in their boots.
A: What if there's something in the army that helps them hit on a better roll?
Calling the Sniper Drone Controller working like a spotter character that buffs units of Sniper Drones.
Future War Cultist wrote: I love the look and stats of the new marines. I just hope there will be enough releases to make a full army out of them.
No way GW is going to miss that opportunity! Rest assured the Guillimarines will likely have a half-year solid of new releases, with a whole slew of Space Marine units and vehicles that will look the same but with a slight proportional shift.
Man it's gonna be confusing for people new to the hobby. "Why are my friend's new Space Marines way different than the Deathwatch guys I got for Christmas?"
Yeah!!! They'll get their own bikes, jump packs, vehicles and terminator armor in time. I hope the bikes look like those HH ones because they are swwweeeeeeettt!
Snarkiness aside, now there's an idea I could get behind, bringing back jetbikes for the special marines! I'm also genuinely interested to see how the new Terminators will look...
warboss wrote: Yup. Another concern (at least for me) is whether or not suits finally get BS4 as standard. It always felt off that an experienced tau warrior in a big robot suit with nightvision and advanced sensors and targeting shot the same as a guardsmen with one month of basic training and an ironsight on his lasgun. In previous editions, I always took the BS +1 upgrade equipment but they got rid of that in the last two back to back practically codex releases. I'm not holding my breath but there is still a chance they didn't screw it up.
It always made me chuckle that Tau lack depth perception, yet their prefered mode of combat is shooting
Honestly, I hope tau remain at 4+ to hit standard on everything but drones (5+). With suits now being able to take and fire 3 weapon systems, AND leave combat and still fire AFTER overwatching multiple times with support fire, they really need to not hit as efficiently as marines to remain balanced. Remember, your suits will have 2-3 wounds standard and now get their saves from most things in combat and ONLY suffer battle shock sue to lost modles meaning your not going to get sweeping advanced again and are unlikely to suffer battleshock. So either they wipe you out, or you bounce away and still get to light them up.
Different priorities for different folks. Even if they suddenly came out with Ninja Crisis suits with power weapons standard and 2d6 attacks that plugs the CC hole in the army, I'd still prefer instead to have my veteran warriors in advanced robot suits shoot like veteran warriors in advanced robot suits and not novice shooters with toothpicks attached to the tip of their guns as sights just because of one throwaway line about depth percception (regardless of the utility of the former). The proliferation of spam markerlights in 6th/7th was a clunky "solution" to a problem of GW's own poor game design making; they took away a free (in $$) option to upgrade the suits in order to force you to buy a $$ model to get the same benefit and I'm not a fan of that. YMMV. Again, I don't want all those benefits but would have preferred for the option to have some of the tau units to have better marksmanship standard INSTEAD of some of the other stuff. The old solution of having your only support system slot taken up by it worked just fine for me personally back in 3rd/4th/5th.
Q: So what happens to the Firesight Marksman? If every model is still playable, and he's not in a sniper drone team, then...?
Also, at a 5+ to-hit, I don't imagine the sniper drones are going to have anyone quaking in their boots.
A: What if there's something in the army that helps them hit on a better roll?
Calling the Sniper Drone Controller working like a spotter character that buffs units of Sniper Drones.
Im really hoping they become more of a general character that buffs up any type of unit.
Q: So what happens to the Firesight Marksman? If every model is still playable, and he's not in a sniper drone team, then...?
Also, at a 5+ to-hit, I don't imagine the sniper drones are going to have anyone quaking in their boots.
A: What if there's something in the army that helps them hit on a better roll?
Calling the Sniper Drone Controller working like a spotter character that buffs units of Sniper Drones.
It's also possible that it's just a reference to the Drone Controller upgrade in general, which gave Drones in a unit the same BS as whoever had the Controller.
So GW must be trying to test to see if I'll keep this up since we got 1 Q&A session on Facebook's comments on Sunday and three on Monday.
Well, it's not dark, I'm not wearing sunglasses, but let's hit it.
Strategems
Q: 'If your army was Battle-Forged'....
What about those that were collections of Formations? My GKs are going to miss their Conclave friends!
A: You can absolutely use the exact models contained in any of the formations right now in the new edition. They won't have any formation rules, but a Conclave can remain a Conclave (in terms of narrative).. just not get any free rules.
Q: Sounds cool. So those are the three everyone gets? Then there's different ones for missions. Do specific models or units give you some too?
A: Everyone has access to these three... but there are so, so many of them more coming.
Q: Can command points be used to make sure my flan is perfectly cooked?
A: Yes it can. Thanks for the flantastic question.
Q: Looking really good.. Counter Offence seems a great one. Really hoping that there will be racial/army ones.. Ork ones could be brutal.. or Kunnin.. either is good.
A: That would be cool and pretty good, wouldn't it?
Q: Whejdofjsjwjwkanfnkdfnksjwnsnfjeiwkdnntngkenwndjjebajxifkwnkaoxkcnwnzjcnsnannjfjfjwjsnxjjsbwbsndjsjnsnxjxjsjsnsjjxjsjsnejwowoksfjiwjwjwjwj. I can't take it anymore I'm so ready for 8th I'm speaking gibberish
A: Strong reaction there!
Q: Things are looking good for 8th edition. Will all factions get a focus article before release? Also if you're taking requests, the Emperor's first Legion needs an article soon. Maybe even show us the datasheet for the Ravenwing Black Knights.
A: Yes, they will indeed. Dark Angels is on the list, so all good!
Q: Absolutely awesome! Loving everything you guys are doing for 8th!
Any chance you could give a loyal servant of The Emperor a bit of info on the Talons of The Emperor? I am wondering how such warriors will fit in the new edition!
A: Info? Sure thing.. they are still very much a viable army and you can absolutely use them in the new edition.
Q: This is huge! These effekts might be the coolest you have showed us yet?! Not only will it give a whole new dept of tactical to the game. It will also make planning really essential!
A: They are huge, aren't they? Your ability to use Command Points will be the true test of a good player in the new edition.
Q: Can we get an article on chapter tactics and how sub-factions are handled?
A: Great idea! We will see what we can do.
Q: My only complaint is just the click bait part "Biggest change ever" but we've had stratagems, not all of them like these particular examples but command points and stratagems have been around since 3rd, from expansion books and campaign books. Otherwise, I'm all for this, I like it and want to see the other options we have.
A: We almost wrote "The 10 biggest Changes to 40k ever! Number 5 will blow your mind!" but we're not those guys...
Q: Would I be horribly greedy to ask for one stratagem for each faction? One typical of Smurfs, daemons, eldar, DE, Chaos, etc. Probably. I shall ask anyway.
A: Well, if you don't ask, you don't get! We can't show anything right now, but there is loads more to come.
Q: I've just got to sa, you guys are doing an amazing job with the 8th edition news. Giving us little hints and info, the faction focus, and the crazy amount of social media presence. I'm super hype to see what comes of 8th edition, my friends and I can't wait!
A: Thanks for the support, David! We hope your and your friends love the game as much as we do.
Q: Command points is a great idea because it gives me the option of maintaining the moral high ground when I lose a game.
You win? That's nice. Whos got the higher commander score son?!
A: Finally, Nick can have some sort of victory in a game.
Q: Will certain characters have their own stratagems that they can bring to the table? Also, will there be scenarios that will grant additional command points during play, like capturing objectives?
A: Those are both really cool ideas. We will have to wait and see
Q: Any chance for getting like Cards for these stratagems? Like those Tactical Objective for keeping nearby and activate car....stratagems
A: Great idea!
Q: @Warhammer Dan So how many command point does it take to cook a Flan?
A: So many. So many Command Points....
Q: Can you use a CP to reroll something that has already been rerolled?
A: Not sure on that one; standard gaming convention would say no, but we haven't seen the rules in full yet.
Q: My worry is. Will I still be able to field my Talos army? Consisting of the corpsetheif and 3 dark artisan formations... A: Every army from the current edition is good to field in the new edition
Q: Just trying to comment so I can get some sweet sweet sassy Warhammer Community love
A: Beware the Sassquatch.
Q: Will Ynnarri Soulburst be treated as a command point if it wants to be used?
A: Maybe? We haven't seen the Ynnari rules yet, so perhaps!
Q: Love the strategems! Did I hear that factions will be getting specific ones for themselves, too?
A: You didn't yet no! More on stratagems in the future...
Q: Are the command points a limited resources or will they refresh at some point?
A: The[y] are limited. You earn them from taking the detachments we previewed earlier.
Q: Guuuuh, please, I want a release date for 8th so badly. A: Real soon...!
Q: Are the command points a set amount for the game or is it a pool you get each turn
A: They are set, and the number you have depends on the detachments you have fulfilled pre-game.
Q: What else can command points be used for. I belive it was said you can spend them to try to go first..? Is that true?
A: Maybe? We haven't revealed any more of these yet... so watch our for more!
Q: Will out of production models like the bonesinger be getting rules in 8th?
A: That's a great question and we're not sure right now until we see the rules.
Q: Hey, Warhammer 40,000:
This question is a little late, probably should have been back on the infantry reveal....BUT this is a very important question!!!
It involves the new rule allowing infantry to act as if they have split fire.
Say a Devestator squad has 4 Lascannons. Say there are two badly hurt land raiders - When do I determine how many cannons to fire at each?
Can I fire them one at a time at the target of my choice each shot?
Do I declare 1 shot against the first, and 3 against the second?
A: Haneef - that's now quite right. In the new edition, you can elect to shoot every gun at a different target if you like. Eg- four lascannons? You can shoot four different tanks.
You elect before you shoot anything where all the shots will be going, then roll to hit.
Q: Can someone spell out the counter offensive one for me, trying to wrap my head around it
A: Sure thing.. it's like this.
So, Nick's Ultramarines are playing Dom's Orks. It's Dom's turn.
Dom has charged 2 units into combat this turn;
A) Ork Boys into some Tactical marines
B) Nobz into some Scouts.
There are also 2 combats already taking place:
C) Assault Marines vs Burna Boyz
D) Command Squad vs Gretchin.
It's the combat phase. Dom will be attacking with the Boyz from A) and the Nobz from B) first (before anything else) as they charged this turn.
Dom activates The Nobz in combat B) to fight; they kill some scouts.
Normally, Dom would automatically go next with the Boyz in combat A) because they also charged.
But Nick calls Counter-Offensive, costing him 2 Command Points. He now gets to activate the Tactical Squad in Combat A), before the Boyz in Combat A) fight. The Marines kill 8 of the Orks (coz Ultramarines are amazing).
Now, Dom activates the Boyz in Combat A).. there are only two of them left!
Now it goes to units that have not charged. It's Dom's turn, so he activates the Burna Boyz in combat C).
Then, Nick activates a remaining unit. The players then alternate activating units unit every unit has fought in the combat phase.
I hope that helps!
Q: With each passing day and article my anticipation for 8th grows. But tell me oh great scribes, what will come of my god machines of the Omnissiah? Will the Collegia Titanica still walk in the 41st millenium? Or will they be containted to the Age of Darkness?
A: So much more information coming soon, loyal servant of Mars!
Q: Will there be Stratagems that add passive effects to an army? (for example maybe giving it a bonus to leadership value or a +1 to shoot with certain weapons?)
A: If there are any passive ones, we haven't seen them yet!
Q: Do these command points replenish, or are these what you get for the enitre game?
A: No, you get a set amount based on the detachments you have taken.
Q: Nick must hold back the flood gates alone now.
A: I got this. Really. Which way do I point the lasgun?
Q: Are we going to see a faction focus Black Templars?
A: There will most certainly be a Space Marines Faction Focus.
Q1: How do you cook a flan?
A1: I'm going to kill Rob. With a flan.
Q2: That seems violent and unbecoming of dessert...
A2: What can I say. I'm a Flanatic.
Q3: It's Flan-tastic puns like this that keep me going.
A3: Is this life? Or is this just flantasy?
Q: Blood Angel faction focus A: They are all coming, guys, all good'!
Primaris Marine Teaser Video Responses by WarhammerTV Q: First off, I'm totally on board and can't wait for 8th.
Fluff-wise, how can this (creation and implementation of primaris marines) NOT cause another HERESY? Even their name, PRIMARIS, you'd be telling marine vets of hundreds of wars that they are secondary. The PRIMARIS would surely look down on their "cousins" and thus be even FURTHER removed from empathy with baseline humanity. (Which is the core reason for the Heresy IE why should lesser beings rule) All in all , I'm effing stoked.
A: We're sure they learned their lesson the first time, right? RIGHT?
Q: They look rather imposing, and it's good that you're not marketing them as a replacement, but an addition. Would it be possible to see a comparison photo with regular Astartes and Custodes?
A: We'll see what we can do, Marcin.
Q: Are these the new Marines RG was making?!
A: Gulliman makes his own rules.
...Then writes them down in a book, and calls it the Codex Astartes.
Q: Looking great! Imposing as a Marine should be.
I hope, like other of my traitor brethren, that the warp will fuel our bodies to fight these new arrivals on an equal ground with new troops without having to be one of the awesome new Deathguard Marines~
A: The Traitors already get their cult troops (as and you say, there are more on the way). These guys can match them in battle
Martian technology and gene science matched against ancient warriors powered by the dark gods - doesn't get much more Warhammer 40,000 than that!
Q: GW, are my normal Blood Angels going to be fairly useless next to these guys or will the Primaris fill more or an elite role?
I only ask because of the information saying that there are now whole Chapters consisting solely of these new marines. As a competitive player (mostly), will I be replacing my normal Astartes with these dudes to keep my edge or will they indeed fill more of a terminator-like role?
A: Hey Elliot,
Good question. We think players will be able to make a competitive force using either their existing models, a mixed force, or a pure Primaris Space Marines army. We'll have an article on how they fit into your games on the way really soon (as in, today)
Q: They look nice but do we really need more marine stuff ? We have armies that haven't been uptade in years, models that look ridiculous by today's standards (ork buggy, I'm looking at you...)
A: Hey,
We'll get to everyone in good time, don't you worry.
Everyone will get news toys, you just have to be patient.
Q: These look amazing, and the sheer amount of salt that is being produced by some people has seasoned my chips to perfection. Thanks GW. A double victory for me.
A: To much salt can be dangerous. It will be handy for stopping beast of Nurgle though, if these Primaris Space Marines ever face the Death Guard.
Q: That looks pretty good, but will armies that are not related to the imperium get new stuff too ? Like Taus, Necrons, Eldars... I mean, I guess they gotta face the horrors coming from the chaos rift, right ?
A: Hey Nicolas,
We'll get to all the armies again in time, don't worry. We only have so many sculptors, and we already canceled all their tea breaks.
Q: Dear GW, are Primaris only Ultramarines locked, or can be used in other chapters? I suppose Guilman want to help all the chapters to be ready for the next threat right?
A: Not just Ultramarines: Loads of Chapters can have them. [LINK TO THE PRIMARIS FAQ]
Q: By the looks of the videos they will have access to regular marine vehicles (Vindicator, Land Raider) right? Obviously there's going to be new primaris only vehicles too...
A: Maybe...
Q: Not a fan of the true scale look. The comic style scale was a major reason the 40k models look great.
Genuinely kind of bummed you guys are taking this route after everything else looked so promising for 8th.
A: Hey Mark,
No worries, you can of course continue to use the existing Space Marines range - the massive variety is one reason Warhammer 40,000 is so fun. It would be boring if everyone had the same army.
Q: I wonder if the Alpha Legion knew about this and planned for these guys to come out. Or maybe tampered with the Gene-seed? So many options.
A: What? You want us to believe the Alpha Legion would ever tamper with the geneseed of a loyalist Space Marine Chapter?
You must be raven mad.
Q: Was expecting more of a change (advancement) in the aesthetics.
Look like just a slightly larger scale Marine. Would like to see more
A: You've only seen one guy so far...
Trust us, we're just getting warmed up.
Q: Will we get to see some of these guys painted up in some other chapters? Or is it just gonna be an ultramarine thing for ages?
A: Hey Ally,
They are certainly not just for Ultramarines: [LINK TO PRIMARIS FAQ]
Q: These will make everyones current marine armies look so naff :/ not cool.
A: Hey Ben,
You can absolutely use these guys alongside your existing Space Marines and they look just fine marching to battle alongside their brothers.
Q: Do you think the Blood Ravens would have stole a few?
A: We reckon we can spare a few for you.
Q: Hi GW. Will the upgrade packs for space marines be compatible with these new models! . I'm just asking because I love making my Ultramarines look like Romans.
A: Hey Oscar,
Good question,
This question is covered in our FAQ on the new Space Marines.
Q: very nice! I wonder if these marines are just Ultramarines or will there be Blood Angel versions too?
A: Loads of Chapters can have them.
Based on what we know with Baal being on the menu for Hive Fleet Leviathan, they could do with some reinforcing...
Q: D: D: D: maybe I'll hold off on even getting into Age of Sigmar so I can save up for these guys A: Or... both?
Q: maybe all the chapters and legions should get some kind of equivalent? and then these cojld set the stamdard fpr the next 40,0000 years
A: Hey Adrian,
They don't just come in blue: [LINK TOFAQ]
Q1: Is everyone getting them or are my wolves yet again missing out
Q2: They said everyone... go check out the article & FAQ A: What Price said^ [LINK TOFAQ]
Q: Was hoping for a animated video :(
Can't wait to add them to my imperial fists
A: We'll have more animated videos soon. don't worry.
(Warhammer TV's Laura makes them - she does a great job.)
Q: They look fantastic, now this makes my choice of which new 40k army to start even harder! A: Sorry for making the choice hard, Amy. The next army will be rubbish, don't worry.*
*We're lying, they look amazing also.
Q: So who is the chap with the veteran sergeant markings on a larger base?
And where are the special/heavy weapons?
A: Hey Jamie,
He'll be a commander of some sort.
And as for more weapons? we have plenty more to show you.
You ain't seen nothing yet.
Q: So these new Space Marines, can they be Chaplains, Librarians or join specialist units like the Ravenwing and Deathwing?
A: We just don't know yet.
But we dare say we'll find out.
So far, we've seen only one type of Primaris Marine. He's not the only one...
Q: Why the hell do the ultramarines get yet another force...
A: We reckon mars probably have a lot of paint colours for different Chapters (they certainly have red...)
Q: So, the Space Wolves getting a few of these guys?
A: We dare say a few might find their way to Fenris. [LINK TOFAQ]
Q: Will this bring an end to all heretics?
A: That's Gulliman's plan.
the "Heretics" probably have other ideas though...
Q: Will there be books about them?
A: What do you think?
Q: Okay....but why though?
A: Because we can, George.
Because we can.
Q: Will the Dark Eldar be playable in the new edition?
A: They certainly are!
We know they have been a bit tricky to play with of late, but very soon, the prey races will once again fear the night.
Q: So is our big boy vulkan coming back?
A: No news on Vulkan at the moment.
Maybe he's really dead this time?
Q: http://i.imgur.com/WlEGd1b.jpg
A: Thanks Big E.
Primaris FAQ Q: Quick, everyone overreact! I love the new background for the Imperium and SM models and I play Thousand Sons.. They literally say that you don't have to use the new Primaris marines or models... This isn't Bell of Lost Souls, you don't have to do the Sky-falling.
A: The sky's not falling folks.
Those are drop pods carrying in them 10,000 years of imperial retribution!
Q: I can just imagine the dark angels interrogator chaplain welcoming speech for these marines
"yes at times we will be whispering suspiciously with the chapter masters and people of the first company, no you are not invited to these conversations... We're discussing... Non-heretical... Fashion... Yes fashion" so disregard these whispers and if you see any chaos marines just send them to me and disregard any mentions of them being from caliban, as you know they are all liars"
A: Those guys give quite the pep talk.
Q: It really feels like your trying to invalidate regular marines. I mean come on. "From a background point of view, some Chapters, especially those decimated in the events of the Gathering Storm, now have entire companies of these new warriors." Entire companies of what basically seem like post-astartes astartes. They really should only be fielded as highly elite units of Astartes that can really kick ass, but are really rare, so are only fielded in small numbers. It would have been better to say, "Here said decimated Chapters, we have rapid gene-seed replacement now, have more standard marines!"
A: Hey Rovaan,
Current Space Marines are going nowhere.
You can absolutely use them (and we think a lot of people will) as elite support for existing Space Marine and imperial armies.
Q: Black Templars took a huge hit in gathering Storm. Seems like they might enjoy having them around. So they get a company of them?
A1: Just one company? What about a whole crusade?
A2: This just in!
Warhammer TV's Duncan is currently painting some up in Black Templars colours for his personal army. We'll see if we can get you some photos. As you'd expect, they look amazing.
Q: Fluff wise it's very odd. Vlka Fenryka will all of the sudden take such new Astartes only because Big Boy from 500 Worlds will say so? "Yeah, we were keeping them for 10 000 years in broom closet on Mars. And here they were, thousands upon thousand new uber Marines, for each 500 into your chapter you will have Primaris Dread for free A: Hey Michał,
Certainly not every Space Marine Chapter in the galaxy is 100% sold on these new Space Marines. We'll have to wait and see what the Wolves make of them.
Q: While I'm all for increasing the scale of the Marines range, I can't help but feel like these "Primaris" marines undermine the concept of the Space Marines as a whole. For the last 30 years Space Marines in this game have been the pinnacle, humanity's finest warriors and the standard against which all others are measured. Everything about the Space Marines - from their silhouette to their standing as the Galaxy's finest fighting force is central to their image and the history of the Warhammer 40,000 universe. They have been an iconic part of the game, and I can't help but feel like this dilutes and undermines their standing in the game. To suddenly produce these "Primaris" marines who are better than a normal marine, for me, damages an intrinsic part of the fluff.
A: Now you know how the Thunder Warriors felt...
Don't worry though Euan, no one is getting replaced. These Warriors can battle alongside you existing army, no problem. The noble history of the Chapters is undiminished.
Q: Come on guys. The story had to move on, and most of the Chapters need reinforcements (Blood Angles and Space Wolf's particularly have taken a beating recently and must to be down to bare bones). What's the other option, refuse mass recruitment of reinforcements and let the Chapters die out? How mental would the fan base go if 2 founding Chapters / factions got wiped off the face of the 40k universe?
Plus cool new toys to play with - what's wrong with that?
One question though - Last time I checked the sequence was 8, 9, 10... So where is the MKIX armour, and why have we gone straight to MKX?
A: Where indeed.
Maybe there's some prototype armour somewhere we haven't seen?
Q: Oh look, yet another spaz marine chapter, like this strategy hasn't been applied yet. Yawn.... I'm going to be thoroughly disappointed if the xenos factions (with the exception of eldar) are underpowered. For example, Tyranids could use a little attention.
A: Hey Blake,
Everyone has had attention.
Every single model in Warhammer 40,000 is getting new rules and has been re-balanced against each other with new points. Your Xenos armies are going to do just fine.
Q: we had our super-humans (reg marines), our psichic-super-humans (GK) and our super-super-humans (custodes), and this is just a batch of another super-super-humans-not custodes-but-better-than-marines-thing, i dont know what to think
A: Just go with it, Santiago.
Q: Just because it's worth a shot, are these Marines able to be produced on chapter worlds from normal recruits? Or are they solely imports from Mars/Cawls-super- secret-mega-bunker-of-secret-R&D? Just because I'll be a little disappointed if I want to use these guys in my custom chapter and they're nor really like my guys at all because they didn't grow up on the same homeworld and experience the same trials and will just be whatever base personality they have in my guy colours. Also if you could respond to this. Even just a "we'll have more info about this soon!" would be cool
A: Hey Deejay,
We don't have any news on recruitment yet, but we're sure we'll get more details soon.
You can absolutely use them in your custom Chapter though.
Q: So..
How about that Dark Eldar, huh?
Dear Warhammer 40,000, Citadel, and particularly you, yes you Jes Goodwin, you amazing man you.
Let's talk about the dark kin for a minute here! And no, not those traitorous Ynnari scumbags that ruined everything. I'm talking about the real denizens of the Dark City! The Dark Eldar! Y'know, those gaunt faced, pale skinned, sadistic pirate elves that herald terror and pain!
So far we've seen a lot of great updates regarding the new changes for Warhammer 40k, and I've got to admit, a lot of it looks pretty exciting! But I have to wonder, how will the Dark Eldar (once again, the real ones, not those do'good'er heathens) fare in this next edition? The 7th edition codex release wasn't all too bad in the start of 7th edition, and I enjoyed a good number of games with them! But alas, as more and more codices were released and formations became more and more absurd, it was clear that we became outclassed. And with the release of the Gathering Storm 2 book, we saw Commorragh get invaded by Daemons, Mandrakes, and even the prompt disappearance of our glorious overlord, Vect! (Where has he been hiding anyway?)
That being said, how will Dark Eldar fit into this new edition? So far we've seen that everything will have a toughness value, which has me almost jumping in glee, seeing as how almost the entirety of the Dark Eldar utilizes poison weapons. But of course, it doesn't make much sense for my Kabalite Warriors with their splinter rifles to be hurting Leman Russ battle tanks. But what about the other special rules that Dark Eldar enjoy, and both live and die on?
Open-topped: Probably the bane, and love of every Dark Eldar player around. We loved getting those charges off after dismounting from our vehicles in 7th ed, but now everyone can! But of course at the same time.. We really hated losing an entire boat from massed pulse rifle fire, courtesy of those blue-skinned hippies. How will this rule be converted to 8th Edition? Or will it be at all? Will our troops still be able to zoom across the battlefield hanging off the sides of their transports while shooting everything they fly past? And will there be any benefit to assaulting from vehicles that are/were open-topped?
Jink: Oh how we love you jink, savior of our jetbikes, raiders, venoms, and pretty much our entire army. After all without it, Dark Eldar are pretty much flying around wearing the contents and attire from a questionably safe internet site. We've seen the extensive changes to the cover system, but what about jink? Will it affect the enemy to hit roll instead? Or will it simply add further modifiers for the vehicle's armor save? (Please tell me it'll make them harder to hit)
Flat out: Speed? Yes please. Another fun thing with playing Dark Eldar, is that look you get when your entire armada of plastic boats and bikes zoom halfway across the table and wind up sitting right on top of the enemy line. While we've seen that every unit in the game will have it's own movement distance, will Dark Eldar vehicles just absurdly fast normally? Or will they have an opportunity (like they do now) to forgo shooting to travel even further, and hopefully get those troops they're carrying into combat sooner? (I want to go fast.)
Poison: We've given it a taste and want some more! Just like open-topped, this rule is absolutely pivotal to the Dark Eldar. Heck, besides punching Space Marines in the face (Ill advised), it's all our Kabalite Warriors have going for them with their splinter rifles! Will poison be able to would vehicles as well? Or will there be some type of keyword system in place to prevent this? (Oh and y'know, those spikey bits all over those splinter rifles would be really cool if they worked like melee weapons!)
Haywire: Well heck, if we can't kill it with poison, this should do the trick. With armor value being replaced by toughness, how will haywire work? Will these weapons still be just as dangerous and effective?
Lance: Nothing's quite as fun as telling a friend that their armor 14 Leman Russ is actually armor 12. Or well.. it was fun anyway! Can we assume that lance weaponry will cause additional wounds like Lascannons? Or will lance cause even more carnage in someway?
Power From Pain (PFP!): Probably one of the funnest rules in the game for us Dark Eldar players. Previously it was all token based, encouraging commanders to hunt out and prey upon weak, isolated units to get those early game pain tokens. And then translated to an (almost) army wide, turn based bonus in 7th edition, providing a strong benefit to patient commanders willing to wait a few turns before exposing their forces. Will things stay the same as they are now? Or should I crack out some spare bases and get back to making those pretty little tokens again? Or will it remain at all for that matter?
Fleet: Definitely in the lower rung of useful tricks that the Dark Eldar have up their sleeve, but certainly nasty to help get the most out of those run moves and failed charges. Since Craftworld Eldar, Harlequins, and dare I say it.. Ynnari, benefit from this rule, I'm sure it'll be returning to 8th edition in some form or the other, but can you give us any hint what it'll be like?
Combat drugs: Those Wyches are always chasing their fix! Will this make a return as well to give cult units a random edge against their opponents?
Dodge (Wyches 4++): So we now know that units can fire their pistols in their shooting phase, even while locked in close combat. What will this mean for wyches, who currently only have a 4+ invuln save during the fight subphase? While it's definitely a lot harder to dodge bullets (ask me how I know), will they still be able to use this ability and keep their opponents tied up in combat longer?
Thanks again for taking the time to read this lengthy post. I hope you at least found it entertaining to some degree, and I hope I brought up some interesting questions! I'd really love to see how you guys answer, and even more so if there was a special little "Faction Focus" on the Dark Eldar!
Thanks for reading
Respectfully,
Doc
A: Hey David,
We'll have a faction focus on the warriors of Commorragh very soon, where we hope a lot of your questions will be answered.
Remember a lot of the rules for the game have changed, and every unit is getting a new warscroll. We think Dark Eldar will work very well in the new Warhammer 40,000.
Q: Will Primaris Chapters have comparable structure to a marine one?
Primaris Librarians? Primaris Terminators?
A: Hey Cerri,
No details yet on company or unit structure. You'll find out details on that soon enough though.
Q: Please tell us you are cranking out enough of the starter boxes. I don't want to miss out because resellers buy a dozen each.
A: We're quite sure we don't know what you mean.
but hypothetically speaking, were there a new starter set on the way, we would have made loads.
Q: Awesome news. The Scythes of the Emperor have a couple of vacancies, so I hear...
A: Oh wow, there's some of you left?
We guess Gulliman can spare a few for the orphans of Sotha, for old times sake.
Q: If allied to Blood Angels, will they be affected by blood angel specific rules and keywords?
A: Allied? They can straight up be Blood Angels if you like.
We haven't seen any details yet on how the Blood Angels special rules will work, but we might soon...
Q: (VOMITTING EMOTICON)
A: Clearly a follower of Nurgle, worried at the prospect of facing these new warriors of the Emperor.
Q: Will these be compatible with the existing Chapter upgrade sprues?
A: Hey John,
Good question. There are some details on compatibility between kist in the Primaris Space Marines FAQ.
Q: Are these guys replacing centurions?
A: Nope.
There are still Centurions of you want them in your army.
Q: What about The news from the Indomitus Crusade.
A: These guys are the Indomitus Crusade.
Q: Stormcast Eternals for 40K...
A: Hang on, we thought you said Stormcast Eternals were Space Marines for the Age of Sigmar?
Which is it?
Primaris Space Marine: Gaming Q: It means that I'm still waiting for an update to all the finecast miniatures in the Eldar range whilst marine collectors get yet another variation on a tactical marine.
A: You guys did just get a god.
Q: So finally you make 2 wound marines, but only for space marines, and not only that but they are cheaper than rubric marines?
A: Hey Michael,
We've seen the stats for Rubric marines already. Thanks to the armour piecing on their guns, their increased survivability from damage 1 weapons, and the fact they can have accompanying heavy weapons, they do pretty well in a shootout with even Primaris Marines, while their invulnerable saves make them more survivable against a lot of heavy weapons too.
Thousand Sons are going to be just fine.
Q: Will we see similiar super units for the alien races? What about Prime Orks or specific Ynnead aligned super-eldar. I'm a die hard ork player and I want new models damnit. I've been stuck with the same buggy kit since Gorkamorka came out!
A: Hey David,
We'll get to the other races, don't you worry. We haven't forgotten about the greenskins.
Also, The Space Marine Bike is as old as the buggy... just sayin'...
Q: You have created movie-marines. This is a bit underwhelming. I have been collecting marines for almost 19 years now. I have been a fan of you lore just as long. This feels forced, especially lore wise.
Plus it might be my conspiracy nerve tingling, but this feels like a beginning to the end of traditional space marines. I am sorry but I am very much disappointed as a collector and fan here. If they were elites it would've at least made some sense. This just feels forced, misplaced, and unfortunately a tad bit greedy.
A: Heh Bartosz,
Have no fear, your current Space Marines are no going anywhere. The origin of these guys traces it's origins to the heart of the Warhammer 40,000 universe. We do hope you like the full story of them when you get it.
Q: You say these new Marines won't replace regular Astartes on the tabletop, but what about the lore implications this brings? If they were a stand alone faction (i.e. Grey Knights, Custodes) then that would be great, but incorporating these super marines into existing Chapters creates all sorts of unpleasantness in the Command structure.
Suddenly our favorite Captains and even Chapter Masters who have forged 10,000 years of glory, and that we've grown to love are now going to be playing second fiddle in their own Chapters. Who cares about Dante when Super-Dante just joined the party?
And you can't use their lack of experience as a factor, that will only be the case for so long. Once these Primaris Marines become experienced and battle forged there is no logical reason for them to not feel like they should be the ones in charge, and take over the roles of Captains and possibly even Chapter Masters given enough time.
Now your going to either have inferior marines giving orders to those that are by all counts superior to themselves(lets see how long that lasts), or these superior marines are going to take over command of the chapters.
While that may be the logical endgame for Gulliman and the Imperium, from the standpoint of fans who have grown attached to these legendary characters, it's a real concern.
A: Hey Matt,
You're quite right. It remains to be seen how the existing Space Marine Chapters accept these new brothers. Some surely will, endorsed as they are by Gulliman, and some companies and chapters will be more hesitant.
It's up to you, which one of those forces you want to collect.
Q: In the new edition will there still be the current upgrades? And will you incorporate older upgrades that got removed but are still in the boxes?
Example:
Breacher team pulse pistols
Carnifex kit with different variations of carnifex
It would be great to see additional upgrades for older units
Also grenades one use only? Maybe everyone can throw one once.
I would love to see guardsmen grenedier squads.
Your reply will mean alot to me
A: Hey John,
As far as upgrades go for those units, if the model comes with it, there will almost certainly be rules for it in the new warhammer 40,000.
As for grenades, we'll be covering how they work in a future article.
Q: Great more marine stuff. It seems like most of these new rules make Tyranid incredibly weak.
Why games workshop, why you keep makings Nids worse. Whhhyyyyyy
A: ey Leium,
would this make Tyranids worse?
We can promise you the armies of the Hive Fleets are VERY scary in the new Warhammer 40,000 - the imperium will need all the help it can to stay off the menu.
Q: Sweet, and Blood Angels can take them. Now if Guilliman could do us a solid and get those reinforcements to Baal before the first part of Sanguinius' prophecy happens, that would be awesome. As much as I love to think of the Angel as perfect, even he admitted his visions were just potential futures that don't always happen.
A: We're sure Guilliman will do his best to get you off the menu.
Q: Cool stuff- Intercessors, meet All is Dust in cover and Inferno Boltguns!
A: Yup, Thousand Sons are almost impossible to shift without heavy weapons, just as they should be.
Q: Will it be possible for a Primaris sm to be dropped into an ordinary tactical squad as a specialist or special weapon marine?
A: Hey Andy,
For the moment, we don't think there are mixed squads, but you can certainly have squads of both in your army.
Q: Three posts in single day?! Looks lile you guys just switched to MAXIMAL HYPE!!!
Keep up the good work!
A: The Hype Train has no breaks!
Q: Joël Walter Please tell me there will be be beakies for the new marines, Raven Guard really needs it reinforcements
A: Hey Joël,
An army of any Chapter can use these Primaris Space Marines if they want to. We're sure there are some on the way to Deliverance.
Q: Let me sum up these comments for you GW.
" WHY ARE YOU REPLACING THINGS"
"WHY NO LOVE FOR CHAOS "
A: Short. Succinct. To the point.
Got it.
Q: One d6 for both battlecanon and frag grenade? Why?
A: Hey Dalibor,
We take it you mean, as currently they have different sizes blasts?
A lot of weapons have been re-aligned in this edition.
The rest of the stats on those weapons are quite different.
Battlecannons also do multiple damage per hit, making them very useful against tough foes, where the frag grenade lacks stopping power, but is good for clearing light infantry - which is what it should do.
You'll have the rules for all guns soon enough, and you can compare the s[t]ats with full context.
Q: OOOO! Key thing.... grenades have a range!
A: Good spot.
Q: so just marines on steroids ok..
A: We're pretty sure even basic Space Marines, are on far more than steroids.
Q: But how much will they cost in £££s???
A: Hey Ash,
No news on pricing or how many come in a box at the moment. We'll have news on this closer to the release.
Q: Will be Primaris for Grey Knights?
A: No news from Titan at the moment.
They have their own very particular recruitment process, and Gulliman likely didn't know of their existence 10,000 years ago, but who knows?
Q: I know you have said in the q&a that Primaris space marines being added to any space marine chapter is cool but what about ones that are prohibited from recruiting as penitence? Such as the Lamenters? I'm guessing that would be a no until that time is spent?
I know there is nothing stopping me from getting some but would rather keep my small lamenters force fluff compliant.
A: Hey Andy,
A lot of Chapters will be covered specifically, and how they are incorporating the new Space Marines. In almost almost cases, they will be availabe to the Chapter, and you, the player, will get to choose if you want to include them, based on the army you want to build.
T'au Faction Focus Q: Will Tyranids be getting some love soon? I love all my galaxy-devouring bugs but I am most curious of all to know what has been done to units like the Trygon and Tervigon, especially with the new Reserve system 8th edition proposes
A: Tyranids are terrifying in the new Warhammer 40,000. We'll cover them in article soon, don't worry.
Q: So in 8th, there is no point in assaulting tau (their only "weakness") because they can use infinite supporting fire and wipe you out and then just move out of combat from the 2 models that make it in and blast you off the table.
A: Cheer up, sad Chaos Space Marine.
You guys rock in the new Warhammer 40,000, you'll see.
Q: The right question should be "are tau still kings of everything and impossible to defeat with a normal and not combined army?" I guess the answer is still "yes"
A: Hey Azrael,
T'au will need to work just as hard as everyone else to win in the new Warhammer 40,000, but they certainly have some good options in their army.
Q: After reading this T'au article, I hope they give some of the combat heavy armies (i.e. Tyranids, Khorne Daemons, Orks, etc...) a 'bullet time dodging' rule that allows them to avoid a certain amount of fired shots automatically, LOL!!
A: Combat armies will be totally devastating, don't worry, Alan.
Q: Can we get some imput on most used MC in game Riptides i mean all this is nice sniper drons and crisis but no love for big guys really? I wonder if we will be able to use them in game, more then 1,2 i mean?
A: You can totally still use Riptides.
They're giant battlesuits with cannons the size of a tank - of course they will be good.
That said, there will be plenty of other stuff now to compete with them for a place in your army, more so than previously.
Q: So what happens to the Firesight Marksman? If every model is still playable, and he's not in a sniper drone team, then...?
Also, at a 5+ to-hit, I don't imagine the sniper drones are going to have anyone quaking in their boots.
A: What if there's something in the army that helps them hit on a better roll?
Q: Considering the article focused on only robots, I'm guessing the idea of indoctrinating aliens races into their forces has gone away? Don't get me wrong, I like giant robots, but part of what made T'au interesting in 40k was the whole "Greater good" concept and trying to bring everyone under their banner. A stark contrast to the other armies who only seem to want to kill each other.
A: "War is the continuation of politics by other means."
- Some famous T'au Ethereal, probably
Q: Will Kroot return as close combat champions or remain a cheap ranged unit?
A: Hey Joshua,
Kroot are a very handy auxiliary in the new Warhammer 40,000.
We're not sure about "close combat champions" but they will certainly have a place in your army.
Gamgee wrote: They show super strong stuff for everyone else, but when it comes to the Tau they show the nerfs. Why the heck would that inspire any confidence? At least show us something good to keep us calm.
Not calming down until I know we're not gutted. Not buying any more 40k if the final Tau rules are just terrible and they are one of the few non-viable factions like in AoS.
The fact that you see nerfs tells us all we need to know about how your reacting. What I saw is terrifying for anyone that doesn't have a decent 100% focused shooting army.
The fact that everybody is attacking me says more about why I'm so defensive in the first place.
It's because you're clueless about well designed, fairly balanced rules.
Gamgee wrote: They show super strong stuff for everyone else, but when it comes to the Tau they show the nerfs. Why the heck would that inspire any confidence? At least show us something good to keep us calm.
Not calming down until I know we're not gutted. Not buying any more 40k if the final Tau rules are just terrible and they are one of the few non-viable factions like in AoS.
The fact that you see nerfs tells us all we need to know about how your reacting. What I saw is terrifying for anyone that doesn't have a decent 100% focused shooting army.
The fact that everybody is attacking me says more about why I'm so defensive in the first place.
"I'm allowed to say inane and have no one tell me I'm wrong."
Gamgee wrote: They show super strong stuff for everyone else, but when it comes to the Tau they show the nerfs. Why the heck would that inspire any confidence? At least show us something good to keep us calm.
Not calming down until I know we're not gutted. Not buying any more 40k if the final Tau rules are just terrible and they are one of the few non-viable factions like in AoS.
The fact that you see nerfs tells us all we need to know about how your reacting. What I saw is terrifying for anyone that doesn't have a decent 100% focused shooting army.
This^
Fighting against Tau is going to be hard, I was hoping that they wouldn't get the ability to leave combat and fire, but sadly they can. My Hormagaunts maybe fast, but they can no longer pin units down. Which was their main purpose. I had reconciled the enemies ability to disengage from combat was balanced by them having to forego their shooting... oh well, that was nice while it lasted.
We've only seen what 1 Marker Light does, I hope we don't go back to the days of Marker Lights just ignoring cover flat out. That was such a broken ability, I was sure glad I invest all those points in Venomthropes.
Hmmm, as a Tau player I'll wait and see. Personally, I like to play my tau like a movile shooting army. So the hability to fall back and shoot is pretty good to that gamestyle.
But they only talk about suits, I want my firewarriors and breachers rules :(
The Sniper Drones seem a little lackluster, I expected a Sniper Rifle to do more than 1 damage, but if they are cheap, they can fuction like a little swarm of movile sniper, something that isn't bad. One of the bigger problems of Snipers is how normally they are slow, so if the objetive they are trying to kill moves, they are just fethed, but Sniper Drones don't appear to have that problem.
Future War Cultist wrote: I love the look and stats of the new marines. I just hope there will be enough releases to make a full army out of them.
No way GW is going to miss that opportunity! Rest assured the Guillimarines will likely have a half-year solid of new releases, with a whole slew of Space Marine units and vehicles that will look the same but with a slight proportional shift.
Man it's gonna be confusing for people new to the hobby. "Why are my friend's new Space Marines way different than the Deathwatch guys I got for Christmas?"
Yeah!!! They'll get their own bikes, jump packs, vehicles and terminator armor in time. I hope the bikes look like those HH ones because they are swwweeeeeeettt!
Snarkiness aside, now there's an idea I could get behind, bringing back jetbikes for the special marines! I'm also genuinely interested to see how the new Terminators will look...
Oh!
They should have jetbikes, speeders, even hover tanks! All newly rediscovered ancient tec Crawled up and set out into the 42 Millennium!
I say this too because if they do make the marines get all the sci fi hover tanks and grav weapons etc, then us lowly mortals in the IG could finally get things like wheeled bikes without it looking too 'samey'. I've always maintained that stormtroopers deserved bikes.
Orthon wrote: Very little mention of what they are doing with Riptides in that Tau article. Riptide nerf, inc?
Hell naw son. We're goign to need those more than ever. If the Tau army is not made native BS4 then this armies viability is dead.
Easy there... we still know next to nothing. Honestly, I think they needed to nerf the big suits somewhat and buff some of the other units. I want to see people actually use Tau skimmer heavy lists and auxilliary builds rather than 3 Riptides and 2 Stormsurges. Besides even if we are rubbish now, I've had Tau since they were relatively crappy using the old 4th Edition codex for years. I'll weather this storm too.
The fact that everybody is attacking me says more about why I'm so defensive in the first place.
To be fair, you're doing this to yourself. Ever spend some time around a teenager moaning "how could this happen to me?" In most cases, it turns out they're being overly dramatic and have a flawed perception of what's going on. If I found myself in a situation where a large group of people were pointing out flaws in my logic, I'd be inclined to believe that it was my perceptions that were flawed or biased.
Tau are one of my armies and I found the leaks very strong. In fact I kind of cringed on things like missile pods doing d3 damage at rend 1, suits getting to jump out of combat on top of their brutal overwatch, and stormsurges having 10 weapons to shoot. Even if some units got stronger or weaker, that doesn't mean your army will be weaker because the points will also be adjusted accordingly.
You're complaining about things you don't have enough information for.
Different priorities for different folks. Even if they suddenly came out with Ninja Crisis suits with power weapons standard and 2d6 attacks that plugs the CC hole in the army, I'd still prefer instead to have my veteran warriors in advanced robot suits shoot like veteran warriors in advanced robot suits and not novice shooters with toothpicks attached to the tip of their guns as sights just because of one throwaway line about depth percception (regardless of the utility of the former). The proliferation of spam markerlights in 6th/7th was a clunky "solution" to a problem of GW's own poor game design making; they took away a free (in $$) option to upgrade the suits in order to force you to buy a $$ model to get the same benefit and I'm not a fan of that. YMMV. Again, I don't want all those benefits but would have preferred for the option to have some of the tau units to have better marksmanship standard INSTEAD of some of the other stuff. The old solution of having your only support system slot taken up by it worked just fine for me personally back in 3rd/4th/5th.
This is another balance be damned, because I want my stuff to be super awesome argument.
Gamgee wrote: Supporting fire is useless to me as a mobile player. It just encourages gunline play.
Imagine what I would sound like if I said "My Ork Gunline is so useless! The Ork rules encourage assault play!" If you want to be mobile, use your dark eldar, probably more "suited" (pun intended) to your style.
ClockworkZion wrote: So GW must be trying to test to see if I'll keep this up since we got 1 Q&A session on Facebook's comments on Sunday and three on Monday.
Well, it's not dark, I'm not wearing sunglasses, but let's hit it.
Strategems
Q: 'If your army was Battle-Forged'....
What about those that were collections of Formations? My GKs are going to miss their Conclave friends!
A: You can absolutely use the exact models contained in any of the formations right now in the new edition. They won't have any formation rules, but a Conclave can remain a Conclave (in terms of narrative).. just not get any free rules.
Q: Sounds cool. So those are the three everyone gets? Then there's different ones for missions. Do specific models or units give you some too?
A: Everyone has access to these three... but there are so, so many of them more coming.
Q: Can command points be used to make sure my flan is perfectly cooked?
A: Yes it can. Thanks for the flantastic question.
Q: Looking really good.. Counter Offence seems a great one. Really hoping that there will be racial/army ones.. Ork ones could be brutal.. or Kunnin.. either is good.
A: That would be cool and pretty good, wouldn't it?
Q: Whejdofjsjwjwkanfnkdfnksjwnsnfjeiwkdnntngkenwndjjebajxifkwnkaoxkcnwnzjcnsnannjfjfjwjsnxjjsbwbsndjsjnsnxjxjsjsnsjjxjsjsnejwowoksfjiwjwjwjwj. I can't take it anymore I'm so ready for 8th I'm speaking gibberish
A: Strong reaction there!
Q: Things are looking good for 8th edition. Will all factions get a focus article before release? Also if you're taking requests, the Emperor's first Legion needs an article soon. Maybe even show us the datasheet for the Ravenwing Black Knights.
A: Yes, they will indeed. Dark Angels is on the list, so all good!
Q: Absolutely awesome! Loving everything you guys are doing for 8th!
Any chance you could give a loyal servant of The Emperor a bit of info on the Talons of The Emperor? I am wondering how such warriors will fit in the new edition!
A: Info? Sure thing.. they are still very much a viable army and you can absolutely use them in the new edition.
Q: This is huge! These effekts might be the coolest you have showed us yet?! Not only will it give a whole new dept of tactical to the game. It will also make planning really essential!
A: They are huge, aren't they? Your ability to use Command Points will be the true test of a good player in the new edition.
Q: Can we get an article on chapter tactics and how sub-factions are handled?
A: Great idea! We will see what we can do.
Q: My only complaint is just the click bait part "Biggest change ever" but we've had stratagems, not all of them like these particular examples but command points and stratagems have been around since 3rd, from expansion books and campaign books. Otherwise, I'm all for this, I like it and want to see the other options we have.
A: We almost wrote "The 10 biggest Changes to 40k ever! Number 5 will blow your mind!" but we're not those guys...
Q: Would I be horribly greedy to ask for one stratagem for each faction? One typical of Smurfs, daemons, eldar, DE, Chaos, etc. Probably. I shall ask anyway.
A: Well, if you don't ask, you don't get! We can't show anything right now, but there is loads more to come.
Q: I've just got to sa, you guys are doing an amazing job with the 8th edition news. Giving us little hints and info, the faction focus, and the crazy amount of social media presence. I'm super hype to see what comes of 8th edition, my friends and I can't wait!
A: Thanks for the support, David! We hope your and your friends love the game as much as we do.
Q: Command points is a great idea because it gives me the option of maintaining the moral high ground when I lose a game.
You win? That's nice. Whos got the higher commander score son?!
A: Finally, Nick can have some sort of victory in a game.
Q: Will certain characters have their own stratagems that they can bring to the table? Also, will there be scenarios that will grant additional command points during play, like capturing objectives?
A: Those are both really cool ideas. We will have to wait and see
Q: Any chance for getting like Cards for these stratagems? Like those Tactical Objective for keeping nearby and activate car....stratagems
A: Great idea!
Q: @Warhammer Dan So how many command point does it take to cook a Flan?
A: So many. So many Command Points....
Q: Can you use a CP to reroll something that has already been rerolled?
A: Not sure on that one; standard gaming convention would say no, but we haven't seen the rules in full yet.
Q: My worry is. Will I still be able to field my Talos army? Consisting of the corpsetheif and 3 dark artisan formations... A: Every army from the current edition is good to field in the new edition
Q: Just trying to comment so I can get some sweet sweet sassy Warhammer Community love
A: Beware the Sassquatch.
Q: Will Ynnarri Soulburst be treated as a command point if it wants to be used?
A: Maybe? We haven't seen the Ynnari rules yet, so perhaps!
Q: Love the strategems! Did I hear that factions will be getting specific ones for themselves, too?
A: You didn't yet no! More on stratagems in the future...
Q: Are the command points a limited resources or will they refresh at some point?
A: The[y] are limited. You earn them from taking the detachments we previewed earlier.
Q: Guuuuh, please, I want a release date for 8th so badly. A: Real soon...!
Q: Are the command points a set amount for the game or is it a pool you get each turn
A: They are set, and the number you have depends on the detachments you have fulfilled pre-game.
Q: What else can command points be used for. I belive it was said you can spend them to try to go first..? Is that true?
A: Maybe? We haven't revealed any more of these yet... so watch our for more!
Q: Will out of production models like the bonesinger be getting rules in 8th?
A: That's a great question and we're not sure right now until we see the rules.
Q: Hey, Warhammer 40,000:
This question is a little late, probably should have been back on the infantry reveal....BUT this is a very important question!!!
It involves the new rule allowing infantry to act as if they have split fire.
Say a Devestator squad has 4 Lascannons. Say there are two badly hurt land raiders - When do I determine how many cannons to fire at each?
Can I fire them one at a time at the target of my choice each shot?
Do I declare 1 shot against the first, and 3 against the second?
A: Haneef - that's now quite right. In the new edition, you can elect to shoot every gun at a different target if you like. Eg- four lascannons? You can shoot four different tanks.
You elect before you shoot anything where all the shots will be going, then roll to hit.
Q: Can someone spell out the counter offensive one for me, trying to wrap my head around it
A: Sure thing.. it's like this.
So, Nick's Ultramarines are playing Dom's Orks. It's Dom's turn.
Dom has charged 2 units into combat this turn;
A) Ork Boys into some Tactical marines
B) Nobz into some Scouts.
There are also 2 combats already taking place:
C) Assault Marines vs Burna Boyz
D) Command Squad vs Gretchin.
It's the combat phase. Dom will be attacking with the Boyz from A) and the Nobz from B) first (before anything else) as they charged this turn.
Dom activates The Nobz in combat B) to fight; they kill some scouts.
Normally, Dom would automatically go next with the Boyz in combat A) because they also charged.
But Nick calls Counter-Offensive, costing him 2 Command Points. He now gets to activate the Tactical Squad in Combat A), before the Boyz in Combat A) fight. The Marines kill 8 of the Orks (coz Ultramarines are amazing).
Now, Dom activates the Boyz in Combat A).. there are only two of them left!
Now it goes to units that have not charged. It's Dom's turn, so he activates the Burna Boyz in combat C).
Then, Nick activates a remaining unit. The players then alternate activating units unit every unit has fought in the combat phase.
I hope that helps!
Q: With each passing day and article my anticipation for 8th grows. But tell me oh great scribes, what will come of my god machines of the Omnissiah? Will the Collegia Titanica still walk in the 41st millenium? Or will they be containted to the Age of Darkness?
A: So much more information coming soon, loyal servant of Mars!
Q: Will there be Stratagems that add passive effects to an army? (for example maybe giving it a bonus to leadership value or a +1 to shoot with certain weapons?)
A: If there are any passive ones, we haven't seen them yet!
Q: Do these command points replenish, or are these what you get for the enitre game?
A: No, you get a set amount based on the detachments you have taken.
Q: Nick must hold back the flood gates alone now.
A: I got this. Really. Which way do I point the lasgun?
Q: Are we going to see a faction focus Black Templars?
A: There will most certainly be a Space Marines Faction Focus.
Q1: How do you cook a flan?
A1: I'm going to kill Rob. With a flan.
Q2: That seems violent and unbecoming of dessert...
A2: What can I say. I'm a Flanatic.
Q3: It's Flan-tastic puns like this that keep me going.
A3: Is this life? Or is this just flantasy?
Q: Blood Angel faction focus A: They are all coming, guys, all good'!
Primaris Marine Teaser Video Responses by WarhammerTV Q: First off, I'm totally on board and can't wait for 8th.
Fluff-wise, how can this (creation and implementation of primaris marines) NOT cause another HERESY? Even their name, PRIMARIS, you'd be telling marine vets of hundreds of wars that they are secondary. The PRIMARIS would surely look down on their "cousins" and thus be even FURTHER removed from empathy with baseline humanity. (Which is the core reason for the Heresy IE why should lesser beings rule) All in all , I'm effing stoked.
A: We're sure they learned their lesson the first time, right? RIGHT?
Q: They look rather imposing, and it's good that you're not marketing them as a replacement, but an addition. Would it be possible to see a comparison photo with regular Astartes and Custodes?
A: We'll see what we can do, Marcin.
Q: Are these the new Marines RG was making?!
A: Gulliman makes his own rules.
...Then writes them down in a book, and calls it the Codex Astartes.
Q: Looking great! Imposing as a Marine should be.
I hope, like other of my traitor brethren, that the warp will fuel our bodies to fight these new arrivals on an equal ground with new troops without having to be one of the awesome new Deathguard Marines~
A: The Traitors already get their cult troops (as and you say, there are more on the way). These guys can match them in battle
Martian technology and gene science matched against ancient warriors powered by the dark gods - doesn't get much more Warhammer 40,000 than that!
Q: GW, are my normal Blood Angels going to be fairly useless next to these guys or will the Primaris fill more or an elite role?
I only ask because of the information saying that there are now whole Chapters consisting solely of these new marines. As a competitive player (mostly), will I be replacing my normal Astartes with these dudes to keep my edge or will they indeed fill more of a terminator-like role?
A: Hey Elliot,
Good question. We think players will be able to make a competitive force using either their existing models, a mixed force, or a pure Primaris Space Marines army. We'll have an article on how they fit into your games on the way really soon (as in, today)
Q: They look nice but do we really need more marine stuff ? We have armies that haven't been uptade in years, models that look ridiculous by today's standards (ork buggy, I'm looking at you...)
A: Hey,
We'll get to everyone in good time, don't you worry.
Everyone will get news toys, you just have to be patient.
Q: These look amazing, and the sheer amount of salt that is being produced by some people has seasoned my chips to perfection. Thanks GW. A double victory for me.
A: To much salt can be dangerous. It will be handy for stopping beast of Nurgle though, if these Primaris Space Marines ever face the Death Guard.
Q: That looks pretty good, but will armies that are not related to the imperium get new stuff too ? Like Taus, Necrons, Eldars... I mean, I guess they gotta face the horrors coming from the chaos rift, right ?
A: Hey Nicolas,
We'll get to all the armies again in time, don't worry. We only have so many sculptors, and we already canceled all their tea breaks.
Q: Dear GW, are Primaris only Ultramarines locked, or can be used in other chapters? I suppose Guilman want to help all the chapters to be ready for the next threat right?
A: Not just Ultramarines: Loads of Chapters can have them. [LINK TO THE PRIMARIS FAQ]
Q: By the looks of the videos they will have access to regular marine vehicles (Vindicator, Land Raider) right? Obviously there's going to be new primaris only vehicles too...
A: Maybe...
Q: Not a fan of the true scale look. The comic style scale was a major reason the 40k models look great.
Genuinely kind of bummed you guys are taking this route after everything else looked so promising for 8th.
A: Hey Mark,
No worries, you can of course continue to use the existing Space Marines range - the massive variety is one reason Warhammer 40,000 is so fun. It would be boring if everyone had the same army.
Q: I wonder if the Alpha Legion knew about this and planned for these guys to come out. Or maybe tampered with the Gene-seed? So many options.
A: What? You want us to believe the Alpha Legion would ever tamper with the geneseed of a loyalist Space Marine Chapter?
You must be raven mad.
Q: Was expecting more of a change (advancement) in the aesthetics.
Look like just a slightly larger scale Marine. Would like to see more
A: You've only seen one guy so far...
Trust us, we're just getting warmed up.
Q: Will we get to see some of these guys painted up in some other chapters? Or is it just gonna be an ultramarine thing for ages?
A: Hey Ally,
They are certainly not just for Ultramarines: [LINK TO PRIMARIS FAQ]
Q: These will make everyones current marine armies look so naff :/ not cool.
A: Hey Ben,
You can absolutely use these guys alongside your existing Space Marines and they look just fine marching to battle alongside their brothers.
Q: Do you think the Blood Ravens would have stole a few?
A: We reckon we can spare a few for you.
Q: Hi GW. Will the upgrade packs for space marines be compatible with these new models! . I'm just asking because I love making my Ultramarines look like Romans.
A: Hey Oscar,
Good question,
This question is covered in our FAQ on the new Space Marines.
Q: very nice! I wonder if these marines are just Ultramarines or will there be Blood Angel versions too?
A: Loads of Chapters can have them.
Based on what we know with Baal being on the menu for Hive Fleet Leviathan, they could do with some reinforcing...
Q: D: D: D: maybe I'll hold off on even getting into Age of Sigmar so I can save up for these guys A: Or... both?
Q: maybe all the chapters and legions should get some kind of equivalent? and then these cojld set the stamdard fpr the next 40,0000 years
A: Hey Adrian,
They don't just come in blue: [LINK TOFAQ]
Q1: Is everyone getting them or are my wolves yet again missing out
Q2: They said everyone... go check out the article & FAQ A: What Price said^ [LINK TOFAQ]
Q: Was hoping for a animated video :(
Can't wait to add them to my imperial fists
A: We'll have more animated videos soon. don't worry.
(Warhammer TV's Laura makes them - she does a great job.)
Q: They look fantastic, now this makes my choice of which new 40k army to start even harder! A: Sorry for making the choice hard, Amy. The next army will be rubbish, don't worry.*
*We're lying, they look amazing also.
Q: So who is the chap with the veteran sergeant markings on a larger base?
And where are the special/heavy weapons?
A: Hey Jamie,
He'll be a commander of some sort.
And as for more weapons? we have plenty more to show you.
You ain't seen nothing yet.
Q: So these new Space Marines, can they be Chaplains, Librarians or join specialist units like the Ravenwing and Deathwing?
A: We just don't know yet.
But we dare say we'll find out.
So far, we've seen only one type of Primaris Marine. He's not the only one...
Q: Why the hell do the ultramarines get yet another force...
A: We reckon mars probably have a lot of paint colours for different Chapters (they certainly have red...)
Q: So, the Space Wolves getting a few of these guys?
A: We dare say a few might find their way to Fenris. [LINK TOFAQ]
Q: Will this bring an end to all heretics?
A: That's Gulliman's plan.
the "Heretics" probably have other ideas though...
Q: Will there be books about them?
A: What do you think?
Q: Okay....but why though?
A: Because we can, George.
Because we can.
Q: Will the Dark Eldar be playable in the new edition?
A: They certainly are!
We know they have been a bit tricky to play with of late, but very soon, the prey races will once again fear the night.
Q: So is our big boy vulkan coming back?
A: No news on Vulkan at the moment.
Maybe he's really dead this time?
Q: http://i.imgur.com/WlEGd1b.jpg
A: Thanks Big E.
Primaris FAQ Q: Quick, everyone overreact! I love the new background for the Imperium and SM models and I play Thousand Sons.. They literally say that you don't have to use the new Primaris marines or models... This isn't Bell of Lost Souls, you don't have to do the Sky-falling.
A: The sky's not falling folks.
Those are drop pods carrying in them 10,000 years of imperial retribution!
Q: I can just imagine the dark angels interrogator chaplain welcoming speech for these marines
"yes at times we will be whispering suspiciously with the chapter masters and people of the first company, no you are not invited to these conversations... We're discussing... Non-heretical... Fashion... Yes fashion" so disregard these whispers and if you see any chaos marines just send them to me and disregard any mentions of them being from caliban, as you know they are all liars"
A: Those guys give quite the pep talk.
Q: It really feels like your trying to invalidate regular marines. I mean come on. "From a background point of view, some Chapters, especially those decimated in the events of the Gathering Storm, now have entire companies of these new warriors." Entire companies of what basically seem like post-astartes astartes. They really should only be fielded as highly elite units of Astartes that can really kick ass, but are really rare, so are only fielded in small numbers. It would have been better to say, "Here said decimated Chapters, we have rapid gene-seed replacement now, have more standard marines!"
A: Hey Rovaan,
Current Space Marines are going nowhere.
You can absolutely use them (and we think a lot of people will) as elite support for existing Space Marine and imperial armies.
Q: Black Templars took a huge hit in gathering Storm. Seems like they might enjoy having them around. So they get a company of them?
A1: Just one company? What about a whole crusade?
A2: This just in!
Warhammer TV's Duncan is currently painting some up in Black Templars colours for his personal army. We'll see if we can get you some photos. As you'd expect, they look amazing.
Q: Fluff wise it's very odd. Vlka Fenryka will all of the sudden take such new Astartes only because Big Boy from 500 Worlds will say so? "Yeah, we were keeping them for 10 000 years in broom closet on Mars. And here they were, thousands upon thousand new uber Marines, for each 500 into your chapter you will have Primaris Dread for free A: Hey Michał,
Certainly not every Space Marine Chapter in the galaxy is 100% sold on these new Space Marines. We'll have to wait and see what the Wolves make of them.
Q: While I'm all for increasing the scale of the Marines range, I can't help but feel like these "Primaris" marines undermine the concept of the Space Marines as a whole. For the last 30 years Space Marines in this game have been the pinnacle, humanity's finest warriors and the standard against which all others are measured. Everything about the Space Marines - from their silhouette to their standing as the Galaxy's finest fighting force is central to their image and the history of the Warhammer 40,000 universe. They have been an iconic part of the game, and I can't help but feel like this dilutes and undermines their standing in the game. To suddenly produce these "Primaris" marines who are better than a normal marine, for me, damages an intrinsic part of the fluff.
A: Now you know how the Thunder Warriors felt...
Don't worry though Euan, no one is getting replaced. These Warriors can battle alongside you existing army, no problem. The noble history of the Chapters is undiminished.
Q: Come on guys. The story had to move on, and most of the Chapters need reinforcements (Blood Angles and Space Wolf's particularly have taken a beating recently and must to be down to bare bones). What's the other option, refuse mass recruitment of reinforcements and let the Chapters die out? How mental would the fan base go if 2 founding Chapters / factions got wiped off the face of the 40k universe?
Plus cool new toys to play with - what's wrong with that?
One question though - Last time I checked the sequence was 8, 9, 10... So where is the MKIX armour, and why have we gone straight to MKX?
A: Where indeed.
Maybe there's some prototype armour somewhere we haven't seen?
Q: Oh look, yet another spaz marine chapter, like this strategy hasn't been applied yet. Yawn.... I'm going to be thoroughly disappointed if the xenos factions (with the exception of eldar) are underpowered. For example, Tyranids could use a little attention.
A: Hey Blake,
Everyone has had attention.
Every single model in Warhammer 40,000 is getting new rules and has been re-balanced against each other with new points. Your Xenos armies are going to do just fine.
Q: we had our super-humans (reg marines), our psichic-super-humans (GK) and our super-super-humans (custodes), and this is just a batch of another super-super-humans-not custodes-but-better-than-marines-thing, i dont know what to think
A: Just go with it, Santiago.
Q: Just because it's worth a shot, are these Marines able to be produced on chapter worlds from normal recruits? Or are they solely imports from Mars/Cawls-super- secret-mega-bunker-of-secret-R&D? Just because I'll be a little disappointed if I want to use these guys in my custom chapter and they're nor really like my guys at all because they didn't grow up on the same homeworld and experience the same trials and will just be whatever base personality they have in my guy colours. Also if you could respond to this. Even just a "we'll have more info about this soon!" would be cool
A: Hey Deejay,
We don't have any news on recruitment yet, but we're sure we'll get more details soon.
You can absolutely use them in your custom Chapter though.
Q: So..
How about that Dark Eldar, huh?
Dear Warhammer 40,000, Citadel, and particularly you, yes you Jes Goodwin, you amazing man you.
Let's talk about the dark kin for a minute here! And no, not those traitorous Ynnari scumbags that ruined everything. I'm talking about the real denizens of the Dark City! The Dark Eldar! Y'know, those gaunt faced, pale skinned, sadistic pirate elves that herald terror and pain!
So far we've seen a lot of great updates regarding the new changes for Warhammer 40k, and I've got to admit, a lot of it looks pretty exciting! But I have to wonder, how will the Dark Eldar (once again, the real ones, not those do'good'er heathens) fare in this next edition? The 7th edition codex release wasn't all too bad in the start of 7th edition, and I enjoyed a good number of games with them! But alas, as more and more codices were released and formations became more and more absurd, it was clear that we became outclassed. And with the release of the Gathering Storm 2 book, we saw Commorragh get invaded by Daemons, Mandrakes, and even the prompt disappearance of our glorious overlord, Vect! (Where has he been hiding anyway?)
That being said, how will Dark Eldar fit into this new edition? So far we've seen that everything will have a toughness value, which has me almost jumping in glee, seeing as how almost the entirety of the Dark Eldar utilizes poison weapons. But of course, it doesn't make much sense for my Kabalite Warriors with their splinter rifles to be hurting Leman Russ battle tanks. But what about the other special rules that Dark Eldar enjoy, and both live and die on?
Open-topped: Probably the bane, and love of every Dark Eldar player around. We loved getting those charges off after dismounting from our vehicles in 7th ed, but now everyone can! But of course at the same time.. We really hated losing an entire boat from massed pulse rifle fire, courtesy of those blue-skinned hippies. How will this rule be converted to 8th Edition? Or will it be at all? Will our troops still be able to zoom across the battlefield hanging off the sides of their transports while shooting everything they fly past? And will there be any benefit to assaulting from vehicles that are/were open-topped?
Jink: Oh how we love you jink, savior of our jetbikes, raiders, venoms, and pretty much our entire army. After all without it, Dark Eldar are pretty much flying around wearing the contents and attire from a questionably safe internet site. We've seen the extensive changes to the cover system, but what about jink? Will it affect the enemy to hit roll instead? Or will it simply add further modifiers for the vehicle's armor save? (Please tell me it'll make them harder to hit)
Flat out: Speed? Yes please. Another fun thing with playing Dark Eldar, is that look you get when your entire armada of plastic boats and bikes zoom halfway across the table and wind up sitting right on top of the enemy line. While we've seen that every unit in the game will have it's own movement distance, will Dark Eldar vehicles just absurdly fast normally? Or will they have an opportunity (like they do now) to forgo shooting to travel even further, and hopefully get those troops they're carrying into combat sooner? (I want to go fast.)
Poison: We've given it a taste and want some more! Just like open-topped, this rule is absolutely pivotal to the Dark Eldar. Heck, besides punching Space Marines in the face (Ill advised), it's all our Kabalite Warriors have going for them with their splinter rifles! Will poison be able to would vehicles as well? Or will there be some type of keyword system in place to prevent this? (Oh and y'know, those spikey bits all over those splinter rifles would be really cool if they worked like melee weapons!)
Haywire: Well heck, if we can't kill it with poison, this should do the trick. With armor value being replaced by toughness, how will haywire work? Will these weapons still be just as dangerous and effective?
Lance: Nothing's quite as fun as telling a friend that their armor 14 Leman Russ is actually armor 12. Or well.. it was fun anyway! Can we assume that lance weaponry will cause additional wounds like Lascannons? Or will lance cause even more carnage in someway?
Power From Pain (PFP!): Probably one of the funnest rules in the game for us Dark Eldar players. Previously it was all token based, encouraging commanders to hunt out and prey upon weak, isolated units to get those early game pain tokens. And then translated to an (almost) army wide, turn based bonus in 7th edition, providing a strong benefit to patient commanders willing to wait a few turns before exposing their forces. Will things stay the same as they are now? Or should I crack out some spare bases and get back to making those pretty little tokens again? Or will it remain at all for that matter?
Fleet: Definitely in the lower rung of useful tricks that the Dark Eldar have up their sleeve, but certainly nasty to help get the most out of those run moves and failed charges. Since Craftworld Eldar, Harlequins, and dare I say it.. Ynnari, benefit from this rule, I'm sure it'll be returning to 8th edition in some form or the other, but can you give us any hint what it'll be like?
Combat drugs: Those Wyches are always chasing their fix! Will this make a return as well to give cult units a random edge against their opponents?
Dodge (Wyches 4++): So we now know that units can fire their pistols in their shooting phase, even while locked in close combat. What will this mean for wyches, who currently only have a 4+ invuln save during the fight subphase? While it's definitely a lot harder to dodge bullets (ask me how I know), will they still be able to use this ability and keep their opponents tied up in combat longer?
Thanks again for taking the time to read this lengthy post. I hope you at least found it entertaining to some degree, and I hope I brought up some interesting questions! I'd really love to see how you guys answer, and even more so if there was a special little "Faction Focus" on the Dark Eldar!
Thanks for reading
Respectfully,
Doc
A: Hey David,
We'll have a faction focus on the warriors of Commorragh very soon, where we hope a lot of your questions will be answered.
Remember a lot of the rules for the game have changed, and every unit is getting a new warscroll. We think Dark Eldar will work very well in the new Warhammer 40,000.
Q: Will Primaris Chapters have comparable structure to a marine one?
Primaris Librarians? Primaris Terminators?
A: Hey Cerri,
No details yet on company or unit structure. You'll find out details on that soon enough though.
Q: Please tell us you are cranking out enough of the starter boxes. I don't want to miss out because resellers buy a dozen each.
A: We're quite sure we don't know what you mean.
but hypothetically speaking, were there a new starter set on the way, we would have made loads.
Q: Awesome news. The Scythes of the Emperor have a couple of vacancies, so I hear...
A: Oh wow, there's some of you left?
We guess Gulliman can spare a few for the orphans of Sotha, for old times sake.
Q: If allied to Blood Angels, will they be affected by blood angel specific rules and keywords?
A: Allied? They can straight up be Blood Angels if you like.
We haven't seen any details yet on how the Blood Angels special rules will work, but we might soon...
Q: (VOMITTING EMOTICON)
A: Clearly a follower of Nurgle, worried at the prospect of facing these new warriors of the Emperor.
Q: Will these be compatible with the existing Chapter upgrade sprues?
A: Hey John,
Good question. There are some details on compatibility between kist in the Primaris Space Marines FAQ.
Q: Are these guys replacing centurions?
A: Nope.
There are still Centurions of you want them in your army.
Q: What about The news from the Indomitus Crusade.
A: These guys are the Indomitus Crusade.
Q: Stormcast Eternals for 40K...
A: Hang on, we thought you said Stormcast Eternals were Space Marines for the Age of Sigmar?
Which is it?
Primaris Space Marine: Gaming Q: It means that I'm still waiting for an update to all the finecast miniatures in the Eldar range whilst marine collectors get yet another variation on a tactical marine.
A: You guys did just get a god.
Q: So finally you make 2 wound marines, but only for space marines, and not only that but they are cheaper than rubric marines?
A: Hey Michael,
We've seen the stats for Rubric marines already. Thanks to the armour piecing on their guns, their increased survivability from damage 1 weapons, and the fact they can have accompanying heavy weapons, they do pretty well in a shootout with even Primaris Marines, while their invulnerable saves make them more survivable against a lot of heavy weapons too.
Thousand Sons are going to be just fine.
Q: Will we see similiar super units for the alien races? What about Prime Orks or specific Ynnead aligned super-eldar. I'm a die hard ork player and I want new models damnit. I've been stuck with the same buggy kit since Gorkamorka came out!
A: Hey David,
We'll get to the other races, don't you worry. We haven't forgotten about the greenskins.
Also, The Space Marine Bike is as old as the buggy... just sayin'...
Q: You have created movie-marines. This is a bit underwhelming. I have been collecting marines for almost 19 years now. I have been a fan of you lore just as long. This feels forced, especially lore wise.
Plus it might be my conspiracy nerve tingling, but this feels like a beginning to the end of traditional space marines. I am sorry but I am very much disappointed as a collector and fan here. If they were elites it would've at least made some sense. This just feels forced, misplaced, and unfortunately a tad bit greedy.
A: Heh Bartosz,
Have no fear, your current Space Marines are no going anywhere. The origin of these guys traces it's origins to the heart of the Warhammer 40,000 universe. We do hope you like the full story of them when you get it.
Q: You say these new Marines won't replace regular Astartes on the tabletop, but what about the lore implications this brings? If they were a stand alone faction (i.e. Grey Knights, Custodes) then that would be great, but incorporating these super marines into existing Chapters creates all sorts of unpleasantness in the Command structure.
Suddenly our favorite Captains and even Chapter Masters who have forged 10,000 years of glory, and that we've grown to love are now going to be playing second fiddle in their own Chapters. Who cares about Dante when Super-Dante just joined the party?
And you can't use their lack of experience as a factor, that will only be the case for so long. Once these Primaris Marines become experienced and battle forged there is no logical reason for them to not feel like they should be the ones in charge, and take over the roles of Captains and possibly even Chapter Masters given enough time.
Now your going to either have inferior marines giving orders to those that are by all counts superior to themselves(lets see how long that lasts), or these superior marines are going to take over command of the chapters.
While that may be the logical endgame for Gulliman and the Imperium, from the standpoint of fans who have grown attached to these legendary characters, it's a real concern.
A: Hey Matt,
You're quite right. It remains to be seen how the existing Space Marine Chapters accept these new brothers. Some surely will, endorsed as they are by Gulliman, and some companies and chapters will be more hesitant.
It's up to you, which one of those forces you want to collect.
Q: In the new edition will there still be the current upgrades? And will you incorporate older upgrades that got removed but are still in the boxes?
Example:
Breacher team pulse pistols
Carnifex kit with different variations of carnifex
It would be great to see additional upgrades for older units
Also grenades one use only? Maybe everyone can throw one once.
I would love to see guardsmen grenedier squads.
Your reply will mean alot to me
A: Hey John,
As far as upgrades go for those units, if the model comes with it, there will almost certainly be rules for it in the new warhammer 40,000.
As for grenades, we'll be covering how they work in a future article.
Q: Great more marine stuff. It seems like most of these new rules make Tyranid incredibly weak.
Why games workshop, why you keep makings Nids worse. Whhhyyyyyy
A: ey Leium,
would this make Tyranids worse?
We can promise you the armies of the Hive Fleets are VERY scary in the new Warhammer 40,000 - the imperium will need all the help it can to stay off the menu.
Q: Sweet, and Blood Angels can take them. Now if Guilliman could do us a solid and get those reinforcements to Baal before the first part of Sanguinius' prophecy happens, that would be awesome. As much as I love to think of the Angel as perfect, even he admitted his visions were just potential futures that don't always happen.
A: We're sure Guilliman will do his best to get you off the menu.
Q: Cool stuff- Intercessors, meet All is Dust in cover and Inferno Boltguns!
A: Yup, Thousand Sons are almost impossible to shift without heavy weapons, just as they should be.
Q: Will it be possible for a Primaris sm to be dropped into an ordinary tactical squad as a specialist or special weapon marine?
A: Hey Andy,
For the moment, we don't think there are mixed squads, but you can certainly have squads of both in your army.
Q: Three posts in single day?! Looks lile you guys just switched to MAXIMAL HYPE!!!
Keep up the good work!
A: The Hype Train has no breaks!
Q: Joël Walter Please tell me there will be be beakies for the new marines, Raven Guard really needs it reinforcements
A: Hey Joël,
An army of any Chapter can use these Primaris Space Marines if they want to. We're sure there are some on the way to Deliverance.
Q: Let me sum up these comments for you GW.
" WHY ARE YOU REPLACING THINGS"
"WHY NO LOVE FOR CHAOS "
A: Short. Succinct. To the point.
Got it.
Q: One d6 for both battlecanon and frag grenade? Why?
A: Hey Dalibor,
We take it you mean, as currently they have different sizes blasts?
A lot of weapons have been re-aligned in this edition.
The rest of the stats on those weapons are quite different.
Battlecannons also do multiple damage per hit, making them very useful against tough foes, where the frag grenade lacks stopping power, but is good for clearing light infantry - which is what it should do.
You'll have the rules for all guns soon enough, and you can compare the s[t]ats with full context.
Q: OOOO! Key thing.... grenades have a range!
A: Good spot.
Q: so just marines on steroids ok..
A: We're pretty sure even basic Space Marines, are on far more than steroids.
Q: But how much will they cost in £££s???
A: Hey Ash,
No news on pricing or how many come in a box at the moment. We'll have news on this closer to the release.
Q: Will be Primaris for Grey Knights?
A: No news from Titan at the moment.
They have their own very particular recruitment process, and Gulliman likely didn't know of their existence 10,000 years ago, but who knows?
Q: I know you have said in the q&a that Primaris space marines being added to any space marine chapter is cool but what about ones that are prohibited from recruiting as penitence? Such as the Lamenters? I'm guessing that would be a no until that time is spent?
I know there is nothing stopping me from getting some but would rather keep my small lamenters force fluff compliant.
A: Hey Andy,
A lot of Chapters will be covered specifically, and how they are incorporating the new Space Marines. In almost almost cases, they will be availabe to the Chapter, and you, the player, will get to choose if you want to include them, based on the army you want to build.
T'au Faction Focus Q: Will Tyranids be getting some love soon? I love all my galaxy-devouring bugs but I am most curious of all to know what has been done to units like the Trygon and Tervigon, especially with the new Reserve system 8th edition proposes
A: Tyranids are terrifying in the new Warhammer 40,000. We'll cover them in article soon, don't worry.
Q: So in 8th, there is no point in assaulting tau (their only "weakness") because they can use infinite supporting fire and wipe you out and then just move out of combat from the 2 models that make it in and blast you off the table.
A: Cheer up, sad Chaos Space Marine.
You guys rock in the new Warhammer 40,000, you'll see.
Q: The right question should be "are tau still kings of everything and impossible to defeat with a normal and not combined army?" I guess the answer is still "yes"
A: Hey Azrael,
T'au will need to work just as hard as everyone else to win in the new Warhammer 40,000, but they certainly have some good options in their army.
Q: After reading this T'au article, I hope they give some of the combat heavy armies (i.e. Tyranids, Khorne Daemons, Orks, etc...) a 'bullet time dodging' rule that allows them to avoid a certain amount of fired shots automatically, LOL!!
A: Combat armies will be totally devastating, don't worry, Alan.
Q: Can we get some imput on most used MC in game Riptides i mean all this is nice sniper drons and crisis but no love for big guys really? I wonder if we will be able to use them in game, more then 1,2 i mean?
A: You can totally still use Riptides.
They're giant battlesuits with cannons the size of a tank - of course they will be good.
That said, there will be plenty of other stuff now to compete with them for a place in your army, more so than previously.
Q: So what happens to the Firesight Marksman? If every model is still playable, and he's not in a sniper drone team, then...?
Also, at a 5+ to-hit, I don't imagine the sniper drones are going to have anyone quaking in their boots.
A: What if there's something in the army that helps them hit on a better roll?
Q: Considering the article focused on only robots, I'm guessing the idea of indoctrinating aliens races into their forces has gone away? Don't get me wrong, I like giant robots, but part of what made T'au interesting in 40k was the whole "Greater good" concept and trying to bring everyone under their banner. A stark contrast to the other armies who only seem to want to kill each other.
A: "War is the continuation of politics by other means."
- Some famous T'au Ethereal, probably
Q: Will Kroot return as close combat champions or remain a cheap ranged unit?
A: Hey Joshua,
Kroot are a very handy auxiliary in the new Warhammer 40,000.
We're not sure about "close combat champions" but they will certainly have a place in your army.
That is a LOT of FAQ that didn't tell us very much.
It answered a few things (designs changes regarding things like the blast template stuff), but what they say can often depend on what people bother asking.
Since most questions were about invalidating old Marine models that's what we got a lot of responses about.
Haravikk wrote: Very disappointed by the introduction of these Primaris Marines; there was not, nor has there ever been, a need for yet another marine+..
Really?
Forge World (and BL) basically lived the last 5 years from pulling random, "unneeded" Elite-variants of Space Marines from Deathshroud to Phoenix Guard to Cataphractii to Justaerin to Immortals to Suzerain to Firedrakes to Tartaros to Deythan to Rampagers to Palatine Blades to Sehkmet to whatever out of their collective behinds.
You're talking there about chapter/legion specific elite variant models, not all new marines+; not the same thing. One is just giving each chapter/legion their own unique spin on the same basic unit, the other is "see your existing marines? They're old news, buy these ones instead".
All the Primaris marines needed to be are reinforcements for the slowly dwindling chapters, with a new armour variant; release a new tactical squad alongside the basic one, and mix and match to your heart's content. Chapters have been struggling to maintain stocks of gene-seeds after all, so simply being able to raise new chapters/legions and restock dwindling ones is a big deal, it didn't have to get silly.
My complaint is also mostly about the need for them in the meta and rules, which you should have seen from the rest of my post; I pointed out that regular marines should be 2 wounds, rather than introducing a new 2 wound super-super-soldier variant arbitrarily. I mean, what's the implication supposed to be here? That the Emperor hadn't a clue what he was doing because Cawl has managed to just cook up some new batch that's twice as durable?
If you want better than space marines, we have Custodes; there is just no real niche for this arbitrary and frankly insulting shoehorning in of something new.
Q: So what happens to the Firesight Marksman? If every model is still playable, and he's not in a sniper drone team, then...?
Also, at a 5+ to-hit, I don't imagine the sniper drones are going to have anyone quaking in their boots.
A: What if there's something in the army that helps them hit on a better roll?
Calling the Sniper Drone Controller working like a spotter character that buffs units of Sniper Drones.
That is good to hear. However someone pointed out to me since SS get +1 to hit in the article that it means the majority of the Tau are still probably only hitting on 4+ without any modifiers.
I'm not sure if even with an extra gun crisis suits will be worth it. It's only an extra two hits hitting on average with a three gun load out. Hardly game changing.
Different priorities for different folks. Even if they suddenly came out with Ninja Crisis suits with power weapons standard and 2d6 attacks that plugs the CC hole in the army, I'd still prefer instead to have my veteran warriors in advanced robot suits shoot like veteran warriors in advanced robot suits and not novice shooters with toothpicks attached to the tip of their guns as sights just because of one throwaway line about depth percception (regardless of the utility of the former). The proliferation of spam markerlights in 6th/7th was a clunky "solution" to a problem of GW's own poor game design making; they took away a free (in $$) option to upgrade the suits in order to force you to buy a $$ model to get the same benefit and I'm not a fan of that. YMMV. Again, I don't want all those benefits but would have preferred for the option to have some of the tau units to have better marksmanship standard INSTEAD of some of the other stuff. The old solution of having your only support system slot taken up by it worked just fine for me personally back in 3rd/4th/5th.
This is another balance be damned, because I want my stuff to be super awesome argument.
Not even close but I suppose massively exaggerating isn't against the rules so feel free to put words in my mouth! Tau are already effectively BS5 when it matters and have been for years as long as you spend the money on marker drone models. Asking for an option that costs points and excludes other possible upgrade options to return only certain elite units back to BS4 like they used to have the option for isn't throwing balance off in any way, shape, or form.
Gamgee wrote: They show super strong stuff for everyone else, but when it comes to the Tau they show the nerfs. Why the heck would that inspire any confidence? At least show us something good to keep us calm.
Not calming down until I know we're not gutted. Not buying any more 40k if the final Tau rules are just terrible and they are one of the few non-viable factions like in AoS.
The fact that you see nerfs tells us all we need to know about how your reacting. What I saw is terrifying for anyone that doesn't have a decent 100% focused shooting army.
The fact that everybody is attacking me says more about why I'm so defensive in the first place.
I think many of us find it interesting when so many other people are looking at these saying "OMG T'au are broken" and you come out immediately with. "Super Nerfed, near unplayable." "None of this good stuff matters".
Their rules thus far look fair to me especially with what we have seen from other armies.
Q: So what happens to the Firesight Marksman? If every model is still playable, and he's not in a sniper drone team, then...?
Also, at a 5+ to-hit, I don't imagine the sniper drones are going to have anyone quaking in their boots.
A: What if there's something in the army that helps them hit on a better roll?
Calling the Sniper Drone Controller working like a spotter character that buffs units of Sniper Drones.
That is good to hear. However someone pointed out to me since SS get +1 to hit in the article that it means the majority of the Tau are still probably only hitting on 4+ without any modifiers.
I'm not sure if even with an extra gun crisis suits will be worth it. It's only an extra two hits hitting on average with a three gun load out. Hardly game changing.
4+ is pretty good for a race whose eyes can't focus as fast as a human's....
stonehorse wrote: I wonder if GW losing the Chapter House Studios lawsuit all those years ago has played a large part in the creation of these. If they sell them as Primius Marines that is a new name they can trademark and protect.
But not prevent somebody make compatible parts etc just like CH did with regular marines.
I would say only the Stormsurge looks good. The sniper drone is so terrible even if given a buff to BS with a character. The lower to wound compared to before and the lack of rend makes it a non-viable unit choice. Why ever spend points on it when our pulse rifles will likely put out just as much damage? They have the same stat line or very similar. The only thing is the sniper drones have longer ranger and probably lower base BS until upgraded with a character.
As for crisis suits. 4+ with no ML buffs means even with a third weapon our army just got hit hard in the amount of firepower hitting.
I think these nerfs were too much. The Tau barring the broken Riptde and Stormsurge were not some terrifying forces of nature in the current edition that were stomping tournaments. Before the RIptide came along the Tau were pretty weak to be honest.
I'll reserve final judgement for the final rules, but this is definitely a bad sign. The Eldar artlce highlighted a lot of strong stuff and they are far far faaar stronger than the Tau.
-Tau still have supporting fire, gross
-No double shooting Stormsurges, yay
-At least two units can Fall Back and Shoot, solid bet that this will be standard on all Suits
-Drones can Look Out
And the biggest one in my book: the <Sept> Keyword makes me think we'll see "Chapter Tactics" for Tau. Keep an eye on that one.
Another: Still no hint that bigger units would get price break ala HH. Some people assumed rubrics had it but clearly that was just psyker adding up price.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: If I were a Space Marine player, I'd feel pretty cheated by these new models.
50 odd pages ago, we had people doing all sorts of logical gymnastics to try and justify why bolters should be less effective against flak armour.
Well, now it seems you can have bolters that are effective against flak armour...
You just have to pay more money for the option...
For weeks and months, I've been hearing all sorts of people defending the 'new' GW, how they've changed, things are better etc etc
But this is a cynical move right out out of the Tom Kirby days...
I'm not sure I understand. I'm just viewing these as new and improved bolters similar to the angelus ones that blood angels have. Those were ap4 bolters so I expected them to get rend 1 bolters as well. There are stronger versions of weapons in the game, of course, they just cost more points to keep things balanced. The only problem I'd have with the new marines is if they cost the same as a standard tactical, that would be unbalanced.
Q: So what happens to the Firesight Marksman? If every model is still playable, and he's not in a sniper drone team, then...?
Also, at a 5+ to-hit, I don't imagine the sniper drones are going to have anyone quaking in their boots.
A: What if there's something in the army that helps them hit on a better roll?
Calling the Sniper Drone Controller working like a spotter character that buffs units of Sniper Drones.
That is good to hear. However someone pointed out to me since SS get +1 to hit in the article that it means the majority of the Tau are still probably only hitting on 4+ without any modifiers.
I'm not sure if even with an extra gun crisis suits will be worth it. It's only an extra two hits hitting on average with a three gun load out. Hardly game changing.
4+ is pretty good for a race whose eyes can't focus as fast as a human's....
You know, this is probably neither here nor there, but I always though this was an odd bit of fluff anyway. Supposedly, Tau have very high visual acuity, but their eyes do not quickly re-focus. However, most of their suits and helmets and stuff all have cameras or sensors, which I would assume would mean that the tau pilot or Fire Warrior or whatever is actually just looking at a screen at a set focal length. So why would focus even matter? I'm sure the camera lens would to all the focusing for the eye anyway. Wierd...
...Anyway, I wonder if Stealth Suits or the Ghostkeel will have better stealth saves than the sniper drones or if this will be the "new" stealth. It's one of my favorite part of the Tau's M.O. so I hope it's still a significant thing rather than being a rather low-level modifier.
Gamgee wrote: Why ever spend points on it when our pulse rifles will likely put out just as much damage? They have the same stat line or very similar. The only thing is the sniper drones have longer ranger and probably lower base BS until upgraded with a character.
They move (likely) 2" more
They have a 48" rapid fire gun, so i'm assuming thats two shots at 24"
You can put them next to most units within 3" to soak fire
Its -1 to hit them
They can specifically target characters with that swath of s5
i'm not trying to say ye moaning dude but they seem like a pretty sweet unit to me with lots of uses.
You were talking about your battlesuits getting mushed in combat,,, have 5 drones with 3" they get charged the drones take all the hits
You just fallback
Oh look now you can shoot that enemy unit to bits with your special rule and all he killed were drones
Savior Protocols could be a real hassle if the independent gun/marker/(Oh God)shield drone squad is still a thing.
String them out to get within 3" of a bunch of units, then just pick and choose who to protect. 8" move lets the drones adjust quickly once they start getting picked off.
Q: So what happens to the Firesight Marksman? If every model is still playable, and he's not in a sniper drone team, then...?
Also, at a 5+ to-hit, I don't imagine the sniper drones are going to have anyone quaking in their boots.
A: What if there's something in the army that helps them hit on a better roll?
Calling the Sniper Drone Controller working like a spotter character that buffs units of Sniper Drones.
That is good to hear. However someone pointed out to me since SS get +1 to hit in the article that it means the majority of the Tau are still probably only hitting on 4+ without any modifiers.
I'm not sure if even with an extra gun crisis suits will be worth it. It's only an extra two hits hitting on average with a three gun load out. Hardly game changing.
4+ is pretty good for a race whose eyes can't focus as fast as a human's....
You know, this is probably neither here nor there, but I always though this was an odd bit of fluff anyway. Supposedly, Tau have very high visual acuity, but their eyes do not quickly re-focus. However, most of their suits and helmets and stuff all have cameras or sensors, which I would assume would mean that the tau pilot or Fire Warrior or whatever is actually just looking at a screen at a set focal length. So why would focus even matter? I'm sure the camera lens would to all the focusing for the eye anyway. Wierd...
...Anyway, I wonder if Stealth Suits or the Ghostkeel will have better stealth saves than the sniper drones or if this will be the "new" stealth. It's one of my favorite part of the Tau's M.O. so I hope it's still a significant thing rather than being a rather low-level modifier.
Cameras still need time to refocus, and autofocus doesn't always work right as we can see with modern cameras. Even a smarter AI may not automatically adjust focus on the correct object fast enough to help.
JohnU wrote: Savior Protocols could be a real hassle if the independent gun/marker/(Oh God)shield drone squad is still a thing.
String them out to get within 3" of a bunch of units, then just pick and choose who to protect. 8" move lets the drones adjust quickly once they start getting picked off.
They're very squishy though. T4, W1 and a 4+ isn't going to keep them kicking for long - especially as Battleshock might see off even more of them.
Yeah there could be some fringe use there, but it depends on the terrain for line of sight as well as what army I'm facing. Still if they can't reduce the save then it would take a tremendous amount of them to do anything. Even then against heavier things like nu-marines half of those will get through or less. It just doesn't seem worth it when hopefully something better exists in the codex.
Gamgee wrote: I would say only the Stormsurge looks good. The sniper drone is so terrible even if given a buff to BS with a character. The lower to wound compared to before and the lack of rend makes it a non-viable unit choice. Why ever spend points on it when our pulse rifles will likely put out just as much damage? They have the same stat line or very similar. The only thing is the sniper drones have longer ranger and probably lower base BS until upgraded with a character.
As for crisis suits. 4+ with no ML buffs means even with a third weapon our army just got hit hard in the amount of firepower hitting.
I think these nerfs were too much. The Tau barring the broken Riptde and Stormsurge were not some terrifying forces of nature in the current edition that were stomping tournaments. Before the RIptide came along the Tau were pretty weak to be honest.
I'll reserve final judgement for the final rules, but this is definitely a bad sign. The Eldar artlce highlighted a lot of strong stuff and they are far far faaar stronger than the Tau.
How is the sniper drone now "so terrible"? It was hitting on 5's by itself before but needed a character to buff it. It now wounds on a 3+ instead of a 4+ against most infantry now, it will be the same against T5, and only worse than it was against T6 or above. It also got a buff to 8" movement but it may not have a free assault move anymore. The reason to spend on the sniper instead of fire warriors is because he can target characters hiding behind units to remove enemy buffs which will be huge and gives a great new role to snipers that they were terrible at before because of LOS.
FYI, saying several times that the Tau are getting nerfed is not "reserving judgment for the final rules".
How hard is it to just accept that BS3 represents the skill of a trained marksman and soldier. On a d6 game, we don't get fine gradation between skill levels. BS3 represents a range of skill levels - generally representing the skill of a professional soldier. BS4 is superhuman levels of accuracy and skill - achieved by marines and Eldar, or incredibly advanced targetting computers, and such. Why so much angst about Tau being BS3?
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: If I were a Space Marine player, I'd feel pretty cheated by these new models.
50 odd pages ago, we had people doing all sorts of logical gymnastics to try and justify why bolters should be less effective against flak armour.
Well, now it seems you can have bolters that are effective against flak armour...
You just have to pay more money for the option...
For weeks and months, I've been hearing all sorts of people defending the 'new' GW, how they've changed, things are better etc etc
But this is a cynical move right out out of the Tom Kirby days...
I mean, I still think that Boltguns with -1 AP would be bad for the game as it would set a bad precedent for what constitutes a basic infantry weapon. I'm not a huge fan of bolt rifles getting that boost either, but at least the basic infantry in this case doesn't get special weapon options in its tac-squad equivalent organization, so that AP is there to serve a purpose by making them slightly more flexible.
They're very squishy though. T4, W1 and a 4+ isn't going to keep them kicking for long - especially as Battleshock might see off even more of them.
1) They have a long range and are fairly fast.
2) They don't need to be in front of a unit to shield them.
3) Any weapon that wants to target them will take a while to get into range.
Cameras still need time to refocus, and autofocus doesn't always work right as we can see with modern cameras. Even a smarter AI may not automatically adjust focus on the correct object fast enough to help.
That could be true. Of course, you can always justify fluff with all manner of hand-waving. Personally, I have to assume that most battlefield sensors would have a very broad depth-of-field so constant minute adjustments wouldn't be necessary --unlike most cell cameras for instance. I'm not saying they shouldn't have a flaw like this, but I just still find it a little odd.
Gamgee wrote: I would say only the Stormsurge looks good. The sniper drone is so terrible even if given a buff to BS with a character. The lower to wound compared to before and the lack of rend makes it a non-viable unit choice. Why ever spend points on it when our pulse rifles will likely put out just as much damage? They have the same stat line or very similar. The only thing is the sniper drones have longer ranger and probably lower base BS until upgraded with a character.
As for crisis suits. 4+ with no ML buffs means even with a third weapon our army just got hit hard in the amount of firepower hitting.
I think these nerfs were too much. The Tau barring the broken Riptde and Stormsurge were not some terrifying forces of nature in the current edition that were stomping tournaments. Before the RIptide came along the Tau were pretty weak to be honest.
I'll reserve final judgement for the final rules, but this is definitely a bad sign. The Eldar artlce highlighted a lot of strong stuff and they are far far faaar stronger than the Tau.
How is the sniper drone now "so terrible"? It was hitting on 5's by itself before but needed a character to buff it. It now wounds on a 3+ instead of a 4+ against most infantry now, it will be the same against T5, and only worse than it was against T6 or above. It also got a buff to 8" movement but it may not have a free assault move anymore. The reason to spend on the sniper instead of fire warriors is because he can target characters hiding behind units to remove enemy buffs which will be huge and gives a great new role to snipers that they were terrible at before because of LOS.
FYI, saying several times that the Tau are getting nerfed is not "reserving judgment for the final rules".
Except it now has the stats of our Pulse Rifle so why not just take more of those? Cheaper and has higher base BS without needing to pay for a marksman upgrade. The sniper is for wounding special characters. With it's poor stat line unless it's shooting at guardsmen equivalent characters it's not going to be wounding anything. No rend means it's useless as a sniper. It would take an entire squad of shooting at things to do minimal damage to heavier characters, and if I want to kill infantry I hope out basic firewarriors are more cost effective. In the current edition it has no use for much the same reason. Looks to be even worse in the next.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: If I were a Space Marine player, I'd feel pretty cheated by these new models.
50 odd pages ago, we had people doing all sorts of logical gymnastics to try and justify why bolters should be less effective against flak armour.
Well, now it seems you can have bolters that are effective against flak armour...
You just have to pay more money for the option...
For weeks and months, I've been hearing all sorts of people defending the 'new' GW, how they've changed, things are better etc etc
But this is a cynical move right out out of the Tom Kirby days...
It's literally just a kraken round bolter. The stats are literally identical given ap 4=-1 so far. It's nothing sternguard and death watch wont be able to do as well.
Gamgee wrote: Yeah there could be some fringe use there, but it depends on the terrain for line of sight as well as what army I'm facing. Still if they can't reduce the save then it would take a tremendous amount of them to do anything. Even then against heavier things like nu-marines half of those will get through or less. It just doesn't seem worth it when hopefully something better exists in the codex.
You seem to have your mind set in 7th still
8th is a different beast compared to 7th as 7th was compared to 6th
the game is going to be played WAY differently snipers possibly becoming paramount against the majority of the tactics people may end up using. not to mention we dont know what drone controllers will even do in this edition. we dont know the full power of markerlights. we also dont even know how much sniper drones will cost.
Cameras still need time to refocus, and autofocus doesn't always work right as we can see with modern cameras. Even a smarter AI may not automatically adjust focus on the correct object fast enough to help.
That could be true. Of course, you can always justify fluff with all manner of hand-waving. Personally, I have to assume that most battlefield sensors would have a very broad depth-of-field so constant minute adjustments wouldn't be necessary --unlike most cell cameras for instance. I'm not saying they shouldn't have a flaw like this, but I just still find it a little odd.
You could handwave it, but let's be honest, the shootiest faction (not the most dakka filled though) should not be hitting on 3+ across the board. That would be horrible for balance and only make playing against them even less fun then it currently is in 7th.
Except it now has the stats of our Pulse Rifle so why not just take more of those? Cheaper and has higher base BS without needing to pay for a marksman upgrade. The sniper is for wounding special characters. With it's poor stat line unless it's shooting at guardsmen equivalent characters it's not going to be wounding anything. No rend means it's useless as a sniper. It would take an entire squad of shooting at things to do minimal damage to heavier characters, and if I want to kill infantry I hope out basic firewarriors are more cost effective. In the current edition it has no use for much the same reason. Looks to be even worse in the next.
Spoiler:
It's Rapid Fire 48".
And we already know that Cadre Fireblades do grant "abilities in a bubble"(we got that early on) rather than single units now.
PS: You, personally, are not being attacked. Your behavior of doomsaying is however being called out.
We got exceedingly brief snippets of information, like other factions did, for the T'au...and you're acting as though it completely ruins the faction. Maybe it does. Maybe it doesn't.
Gamgee wrote: I would say only the Stormsurge looks good. The sniper drone is so terrible even if given a buff to BS with a character. The lower to wound compared to before and the lack of rend makes it a non-viable unit choice. Why ever spend points on it when our pulse rifles will likely put out just as much damage? They have the same stat line or very similar. The only thing is the sniper drones have longer ranger and probably lower base BS until upgraded with a character.
As for crisis suits. 4+ with no ML buffs means even with a third weapon our army just got hit hard in the amount of firepower hitting.
I think these nerfs were too much. The Tau barring the broken Riptde and Stormsurge were not some terrifying forces of nature in the current edition that were stomping tournaments. Before the RIptide came along the Tau were pretty weak to be honest.
I'll reserve final judgement for the final rules, but this is definitely a bad sign. The Eldar artlce highlighted a lot of strong stuff and they are far far faaar stronger than the Tau.
How is the sniper drone now "so terrible"? It was hitting on 5's by itself before but needed a character to buff it. It now wounds on a 3+ instead of a 4+ against most infantry now, it will be the same against T5, and only worse than it was against T6 or above. It also got a buff to 8" movement but it may not have a free assault move anymore. The reason to spend on the sniper instead of fire warriors is because he can target characters hiding behind units to remove enemy buffs which will be huge and gives a great new role to snipers that they were terrible at before because of LOS.
FYI, saying several times that the Tau are getting nerfed is not "reserving judgment for the final rules".
Except it now has the stats of our Pulse Rifle so why not just take more of those? Cheaper and has higher base BS without needing to pay for a marksman upgrade. The sniper is for wounding special characters. With it's poor stat line unless it's shooting at guardsmen equivalent characters it's not going to be wounding anything. No rend means it's useless as a sniper. It would take an entire squad of shooting at things to do minimal damage to heavier characters, and if I want to kill infantry I hope out basic firewarriors are more cost effective. In the current edition it has no use for much the same reason. Looks to be even worse in the next.
To be fair you are right about the damage output
10 of them at 24" is 20 shots, 6.667 hit vs a basic marine thats 4.4 wounds and 1.4 deaths
Cameras still need time to refocus, and autofocus doesn't always work right as we can see with modern cameras. Even a smarter AI may not automatically adjust focus on the correct object fast enough to help.
That could be true. Of course, you can always justify fluff with all manner of hand-waving. Personally, I have to assume that most battlefield sensors would have a very broad depth-of-field so constant minute adjustments wouldn't be necessary --unlike most cell cameras for instance. I'm not saying they shouldn't have a flaw like this, but I just still find it a little odd.
You could handwave it, but let's be honest, the shootiest faction (not the most dakka filled though) should not be hitting on 3+ across the board. That would be horrible for balance and only make playing against them even less fun then it currently is in 7th.
Absolutely. I'm not saying I want Tau to be BS4. I just thought the fluff was weird when you actually thought about it.
Gamgee wrote: The Tau barring the broken Riptde and Stormsurge were not some terrifying forces of nature in the current edition that were stomping tournaments. Before the RIptide came along the Tau were pretty weak to be honest.
That's because they were using a 4E book, with special wargear and abilities built heavily around 4E specific vehicle and LoS mechanics.
Tau were very strong in 3E and 4E, they just didnt get a 5E book, so felt somewhat awkward through 5E and early 6E, when they got a 6E book they went right back to being very strong.
Things could be a whole lot worse for the Tau, it's not like they've been treated like Sisters or IG or something.
Cameras still need time to refocus, and autofocus doesn't always work right as we can see with modern cameras. Even a smarter AI may not automatically adjust focus on the correct object fast enough to help.
That could be true. Of course, you can always justify fluff with all manner of hand-waving. Personally, I have to assume that most battlefield sensors would have a very broad depth-of-field so constant minute adjustments wouldn't be necessary --unlike most cell cameras for instance. I'm not saying they shouldn't have a flaw like this, but I just still find it a little odd.
You could handwave it, but let's be honest, the shootiest faction (not the most dakka filled though) should not be hitting on 3+ across the board. That would be horrible for balance and only make playing against them even less fun then it currently is in 7th.
Absolutely. I'm not saying I want Tau to be BS4. I just thought the fluff was weird when you actually thought about it.
I mean if there eyes are really that bad that they need to wear glasses helmet to bring them up to human levels then they are already at human levels considering guardsmen are also probably going to be bs 3 equivalent.
Except it now has the stats of our Pulse Rifle so why not just take more of those? Cheaper and has higher base BS without needing to pay for a marksman upgrade. The sniper is for wounding special characters. With it's poor stat line unless it's shooting at guardsmen equivalent characters it's not going to be wounding anything. No rend means it's useless as a sniper. It would take an entire squad of shooting at things to do minimal damage to heavier characters, and if I want to kill infantry I hope out basic firewarriors are more cost effective. In the current edition it has no use for much the same reason. Looks to be even worse in the next.
Spoiler:
It's Rapid Fire 48".
And we already know that Cadre Fireblades do grant "abilities in a bubble"(we got that early on) rather than single units now.
PS:
You, personally, are not being attacked. Your behavior of doomsaying is however being called out.
We got exceedingly brief snippets of information, like other factions did, for the T'au...and you're acting as though it completely ruins the faction.
Maybe it does. Maybe it doesn't.
So far, it seems like it doesn't.
I missed that they were Rapid Fire with a 4' range. Emperor's teeth, that is nasty. Get within 2' of them and get lit up like an Emperor's Ascension Day tree....
Also better than being heavy since no move penalty.
Except it now has the stats of our Pulse Rifle so why not just take more of those? Cheaper and has higher base BS without needing to pay for a marksman upgrade. The sniper is for wounding special characters. With it's poor stat line unless it's shooting at guardsmen equivalent characters it's not going to be wounding anything. No rend means it's useless as a sniper. It would take an entire squad of shooting at things to do minimal damage to heavier characters, and if I want to kill infantry I hope out basic firewarriors are more cost effective. In the current edition it has no use for much the same reason. Looks to be even worse in the next.
These can be behind firewarriors (or even interspersed) double tapping before they can. And the controller's rules will probably have a role to play.
The article even says:
When paired with the T’au HQ’s such as the Cadre Fireblade
Hollow wrote: YOU don't know the rules of the Pulse rifle. Stop mixing and matching what the current rules are with new information about an entirely new edition.
I guess the Pulse Rifle could be given a -1 rend or maybe Str 6? I doubt it though. In the lore the longshot pulse rifle was the same damage as a pulse rifle but longer range is all. So unless we see regular pulse rifles get a buff over it it's fairly safe to assume the stats are the same at Str 5. It would be like seeing normal marines bolter go to str 6 -2 kind of weird.
Cameras still need time to refocus, and autofocus doesn't always work right as we can see with modern cameras. Even a smarter AI may not automatically adjust focus on the correct object fast enough to help.
That could be true. Of course, you can always justify fluff with all manner of hand-waving. Personally, I have to assume that most battlefield sensors would have a very broad depth-of-field so constant minute adjustments wouldn't be necessary --unlike most cell cameras for instance. I'm not saying they shouldn't have a flaw like this, but I just still find it a little odd.
You could handwave it, but let's be honest, the shootiest faction (not the most dakka filled though) should not be hitting on 3+ across the board. That would be horrible for balance and only make playing against them even less fun then it currently is in 7th.
Absolutely. I'm not saying I want Tau to be BS4. I just thought the fluff was weird when you actually thought about it.
I can't find it, but I recall there was a very detailed post about the biology of Tau, and part of their eyesight limitation tied into their copper based blood. It was quite the read and I'm sad I can't find it now.
Hollow wrote: YOU don't know the rules of the Pulse rifle. Stop mixing and matching what the current rules are with new information about an entirely new edition.
I guess the Pulse Rifle could be given a -1 rend or maybe Str 6? I doubt it though. In the lore the longshot pulse rifle was the same damage as a pulse rifle but longer range is all. So unless we see regular pulse rifles get a buff over it it's fairly safe to assume the stats are the same at Str 5.
No the weapon profile is the weapon profile. Like I mentioned above and what GW said in the article - these get paired with another unit to make them more effective.
Edit
You know thinking about it. With Crisis suit saves not being auto-ignored which I'm so used to by now it might actually allow them to survive melee combat. So maybe they are still just as good now that I think about it that way. Not going to convince me on those drones though until I see them in a unit being buffed or something.
All this noise about existing Tau stuff that is not rumor related is making it hard for me to find the rules for Primaris Marines (assuming they're actually in this thread). Can you guys please take the off-topic Tau convo to another thread?
..and.. if anyone knows what page whatever rules we know of for the Primaris Marines are please mention it?
It's not off topic though it's an official GW article, but I'm done anyways. I've said what I had to. Primaris Marines are not "rumor" related either and should equally be taken to another discussion too. We see them now and know they are coming.
Also just go to the community website it's not hard to find.
MLaw wrote: All this noise about existing Tau stuff that is not rumor related is making it hard for me to find the rules for Primaris Marines (assuming they're actually in this thread). Can you guys please take the off-topic Tau convo to another thread?
..and.. if anyone knows what page whatever rules we know of for the Primaris Marines are please mention it?
The Tau 8th edition changes were just announced. This isn't off topic. Pertaining to Space Marines in general, I'm from Cyraxus and I say squat them all.
Edit
You know thinking about it. With Crisis suit saves not being auto-ignored which I'm so used to by now it might actually allow them to survive melee combat. So maybe they are still just as good now that I think about it that way. Not going to convince me on those drones though until I see them in a unit being buffed or something.
MLaw wrote: All this noise about existing Tau stuff that is not rumor related is making it hard for me to find the rules for Primaris Marines (assuming they're actually in this thread). Can you guys please take the off-topic Tau convo to another thread?
..and.. if anyone knows what page whatever rules we know of for the Primaris Marines are please mention it?
Or you could just look on the community page - Comparing the new and old rules is perfectly on topic - not everthing is about Marines.
Hollow wrote: YOU don't know the rules of the Pulse rifle. Stop mixing and matching what the current rules are with new information about an entirely new edition.
I guess the Pulse Rifle could be given a -1 rend or maybe Str 6? I doubt it though. In the lore the longshot pulse rifle was the same damage as a pulse rifle but longer range is all. So unless we see regular pulse rifles get a buff over it it's fairly safe to assume the stats are the same at Str 5. It would be like seeing normal marines bolter go to str 6 -2 kind of weird.
Gamgee wrote: It's not off topic though it's an official GW article, but I'm done anyways. I've said what I had to. Primaris Marines are not "rumor" related either and should equally be taken to another discussion too. We see them now and know they are coming.
Also just go to the community website it's not hard to find.
THIS IS N&R.. NEWS&RUMOR NEWS... &...RUMOR
I didn't even see that there was new Tau info.. just people complaining about Tau.. but seriously.. if there is new Tau info .. News or Rumor.. the subject should probably include it
We haven't seen the Tau pulse rifle to my knowledge so I have no idea. A lot of people are speculating that basic infantry weapons will not have rend at all, but then again we just seen the new marine bolters. So who knows. If it get's a -1 to saves I'll be surprised.
MLaw wrote: All this noise about existing Tau stuff that is not rumor related is making it hard for me to find the rules for Primaris Marines (assuming they're actually in this thread). Can you guys please take the off-topic Tau convo to another thread?
..and.. if anyone knows what page whatever rules we know of for the Primaris Marines are please mention it?
Or you could just look on the community page - Comparing the new and old rules is perfectly on topic - not everthing is about Marines.
Wow, rule 1 dude..
The SUBJECT LINE is about Primaris Marines.. I didn't even know there was anything new about Tau (which.. appears to be wishlisting from what I can see and not actual news or rumor). Also, pretending that a really significant announcement isn't really significant just because it doesn't align with your interests does not mean it doesn't exist. I asked politely for you guys to respect the nature of the thread and the topic.. but it seems like I'm getting piled on by some Tau fanboys that are upset that they don't have anything new and shiny. If that's not what's happening, by all means, please link to the pertinent Tau info but so far I see people bickering about pulse rifles and some discussion about crisis suits that I don't have time to follow.
...Anyway, I wonder if Stealth Suits or the Ghostkeel will have better stealth saves than the sniper drones or if this will be the "new" stealth. It's one of my favorite part of the Tau's M.O. so I hope it's still a significant thing rather than being a rather low-level modifier.
I mean it ins't that low level of a modifier. -1 to hit (assuming 6s always hit) is typically between a 25-50% increase in survivability (depending on the firing unit). That said the benefit only coming from not being closest hurts things like Stealth suits a lot if it works the same way.
Hollow wrote: YOU don't know the rules of the Pulse rifle. Stop mixing and matching what the current rules are with new information about an entirely new edition.
I guess the Pulse Rifle could be given a -1 rend or maybe Str 6? I doubt it though. In the lore the longshot pulse rifle was the same damage as a pulse rifle but longer range is all. So unless we see regular pulse rifles get a buff over it it's fairly safe to assume the stats are the same at Str 5. It would be like seeing normal marines bolter go to str 6 -2 kind of weird.
Aren't they S5? So 30", S5, -1AP, Rapid Fire1.
Doesn't seem to be the same as the new Bolter.
Everything that was AP 5 has no rend so why should the Pulse Rifle have Rend?
Gamgee wrote: It's not off topic though it's an official GW article, but I'm done anyways. I've said what I had to. Primaris Marines are not "rumor" related either and should equally be taken to another discussion too. We see them now and know they are coming.
Also just go to the community website it's not hard to find.
THIS IS N&R.. NEWS&RUMOR NEWS... &...RUMOR
I didn't even see that there was new Tau info.. just people complaining about Tau.. but seriously.. if there is new Tau info .. News or Rumor.. the subject should probably include it
Rippy is usually offline right now, so not likely to happen right now.
And just because you didn't check the community site to see the Faction Focus article doesn't make it everyone else's fault.
Really excited for that <sept> and what it might have in store. Kinda meh on the battlesuits, not having seen points yet the ability to fall back and shoot seem a bit op.
Hollow wrote: YOU don't know the rules of the Pulse rifle. Stop mixing and matching what the current rules are with new information about an entirely new edition.
I guess the Pulse Rifle could be given a -1 rend or maybe Str 6? I doubt it though. In the lore the longshot pulse rifle was the same damage as a pulse rifle but longer range is all. So unless we see regular pulse rifles get a buff over it it's fairly safe to assume the stats are the same at Str 5. It would be like seeing normal marines bolter go to str 6 -2 kind of weird.
Aren't they S5? So 30", S5, -1AP, Rapid Fire1.
Doesn't seem to be the same as the new Bolter.
Everything that was AP 5 has no rend so why should the Pulse Rifle have Rend?
Exactly I don't think it should. Wouldn't make sense. Also the Tau longshot pulse rifle not having rend is a good indication it wont since the two were basically identical in 7th barring one having the sniper rule and a longer range.
I'm primarily a 30k player these days but my 40k side doesn't really like these. I understand the reasons why GW has probably done this e.g not just another box with Marines that existing marines player won't need to buy, especially if the rules are free. But to me it stinks a bit from a lore perspective
They're a throwback to the legions (i.e no special weapons etc) but this is exactly what Guilliman moved away from. Now he wakes up and decides that's what they're going back to from an org perspective? Also the hints that this was a project 10,000 years in the making. I know they said the Chaos Gods have also been busy, but this type of thing would have been difficult to keep from Horus etc. during the Heresy, especially with the split of Mars, so surely the info about these marines would have been of interest if not a target to either steal the info or destroy it - in fact if memory serves the Fabricator General joined Horus - so I'm pretty sure he would have been privy to this info.
The models look nice - clearly a lot better then the kit bash that some people thought was the real thing a while back. But it just doesn't sit in the setting for me. Albeit I know they're trying to move the story on. They look like a good basis for TS marines, though unfortunately that does make the Land Raiders etc. appear even smaller now when it comes to transporting them.
Hollow wrote: YOU don't know the rules of the Pulse rifle. Stop mixing and matching what the current rules are with new information about an entirely new edition.
I guess the Pulse Rifle could be given a -1 rend or maybe Str 6? I doubt it though. In the lore the longshot pulse rifle was the same damage as a pulse rifle but longer range is all. So unless we see regular pulse rifles get a buff over it it's fairly safe to assume the stats are the same at Str 5. It would be like seeing normal marines bolter go to str 6 -2 kind of weird.
Aren't they S5? So 30", S5, -1AP, Rapid Fire1.
Doesn't seem to be the same as the new Bolter.
Everything that was AP 5 has no rend so why should the Pulse Rifle have Rend?
Gamgee wrote: It's not off topic though it's an official GW article, but I'm done anyways. I've said what I had to. Primaris Marines are not "rumor" related either and should equally be taken to another discussion too. We see them now and know they are coming.
Also just go to the community website it's not hard to find.
THIS IS N&R.. NEWS&RUMOR NEWS... &...RUMOR
I didn't even see that there was new Tau info.. just people complaining about Tau.. but seriously.. if there is new Tau info .. News or Rumor.. the subject should probably include it
Rippy is usually offline right now, so not likely to happen right now.
And just because you didn't check the community site to see the Faction Focus article doesn't make it everyone else's fault.
I come to Dakka Dakka because it's what I have time to do.. Community site and Faction Focus are not things I was aware of prior to the last few posts in this thread. Thanks for making some pretty big assumptions though!
As a general response to replies to my earlier post, I will say this:
Space Marines are supposed to be humanity's finest. Genetics, equipment, training etc etc
And yet, GW seems to think that an average joe with a flashlight and some MDF armour, can survive a boltgun shot from a Space Marine...
By that logic, a middle aged, overweight guy like me, should be able to go toe to toe with a bad ass from Delta Force, SAS, Spetnaz, insert your special forces of choice here...
And here we are, with a new unit and a new boltgun that basic space marines should be getting anyway. If I buy a new car, I don't expect to have to turn up with a steering wheel and spark plugs.
I'm 400 miles away from GWHQ, but I can smell the horsegak from up here in the Scottish Highlands!
Hollow wrote: YOU don't know the rules of the Pulse rifle. Stop mixing and matching what the current rules are with new information about an entirely new edition.
I guess the Pulse Rifle could be given a -1 rend or maybe Str 6? I doubt it though. In the lore the longshot pulse rifle was the same damage as a pulse rifle but longer range is all. So unless we see regular pulse rifles get a buff over it it's fairly safe to assume the stats are the same at Str 5. It would be like seeing normal marines bolter go to str 6 -2 kind of weird.
Aren't they S5? So 30", S5, -1AP, Rapid Fire1.
Doesn't seem to be the same as the new Bolter.
Everything that was AP 5 has no rend so why should the Pulse Rifle have Rend?
Because it's currently AP4 IIRC.
Nope Ap 5. Your thinking of Firwarrior armor which is 4+.
Edit
Thinking about it how will breachers be handled? In the current edition they have an invuln save with a guardian drone of 5+ but an armor save of 4+ so what is going to happen to make them more durable than regular firewarriors?
Gamgee wrote: It's not off topic though it's an official GW article, but I'm done anyways. I've said what I had to. Primaris Marines are not "rumor" related either and should equally be taken to another discussion too. We see them now and know they are coming.
Also just go to the community website it's not hard to find.
THIS IS N&R.. NEWS&RUMOR NEWS... &...RUMOR
I didn't even see that there was new Tau info.. just people complaining about Tau.. but seriously.. if there is new Tau info .. News or Rumor.. the subject should probably include it
Rippy is usually offline right now, so not likely to happen right now.
And just because you didn't check the community site to see the Faction Focus article doesn't make it everyone else's fault.
I come to Dakka Dakka because it's what I have time to do.. Community site and Faction Focus are not things I was aware of prior to the last few posts in this thread. Thanks for making some pretty big assumptions though!
Says the person who made assumptions about T'au being off topic....
Hollow wrote: YOU don't know the rules of the Pulse rifle. Stop mixing and matching what the current rules are with new information about an entirely new edition.
I guess the Pulse Rifle could be given a -1 rend or maybe Str 6? I doubt it though. In the lore the longshot pulse rifle was the same damage as a pulse rifle but longer range is all. So unless we see regular pulse rifles get a buff over it it's fairly safe to assume the stats are the same at Str 5. It would be like seeing normal marines bolter go to str 6 -2 kind of weird.
Aren't they S5? So 30", S5, -1AP, Rapid Fire1.
Doesn't seem to be the same as the new Bolter.
Everything that was AP 5 has no rend so why should the Pulse Rifle have Rend?
Exactly I don't think it should. Wouldn't make sense. Also the Tau longshot pulse rifle not having rend is a good indication it wont since the two were basically identical in 7th barring one having the sniper rule and a longer range.
Then again ACROSS the whole board survivability seems to have increased from ap reductions to saves not always being all or nothing. it seems par for the course.
Space Marines are supposed to be humanity's finest. Genetics, equipment, training etc etc
And yet, GW seems to think that an average joe with a flashlight and some MDF armour, can survive a boltgun shot from a Space Marine...
By that logic, a middle aged, overweight guy like me, should be able to go toe to toe with a bad ass from Delta Force, SAS, Spetnaz, insert your special forces of choice here...
And here we are, with a new unit and a new boltgun that basic space marines should be getting anyway. If I buy a new car, I don't expect to have to turn up with a steering wheel and spark plugs.
I'm 400 miles away from GWHQ, but I can smell the horsegak from up here in the Scottish Highlands!
they are also about 20k years old and the bolt gun hasnt seen any changes in a while. then again game wise they seem to want things to die a little less with normal shooting making more specialized weapons useful.
Honestly? I don't mind Nu-marine fluff. The models are nice. The fluff isn't any better or worse than some of the other things we've seen. The rules seem reasonable, especially that their squads seem limited to 5 marines...
Also: I might get crucified for this but... I kind of think we need two separate threads.
Thread 1: Focus on New Edition Rules
Thread 2: Focus on Army Focuses & Fluff Posts & Starter Set / New Sets
I know they are closely intertwined topics, but it's becoming difficult to see opinions on new rules amidst all the Tau/Marine talk.
Sorry for the mildly off-topic post. Please don't make it a big discussion, just a suggestion to Mods/Thread Organizers?
Hollow wrote: YOU don't know the rules of the Pulse rifle. Stop mixing and matching what the current rules are with new information about an entirely new edition.
I guess the Pulse Rifle could be given a -1 rend or maybe Str 6? I doubt it though. In the lore the longshot pulse rifle was the same damage as a pulse rifle but longer range is all. So unless we see regular pulse rifles get a buff over it it's fairly safe to assume the stats are the same at Str 5. It would be like seeing normal marines bolter go to str 6 -2 kind of weird.
Aren't they S5? So 30", S5, -1AP, Rapid Fire1.
Doesn't seem to be the same as the new Bolter.
Everything that was AP 5 has no rend so why should the Pulse Rifle have Rend?
Because it's currently AP4 IIRC.
Nope Ap 5. Your thinking of Firwarrior armor which is 4+.
No, I was thinking of the guns.
I could have sworn they had AP4 guns, but then again I don't see Firewarriors locally. One guy is more about the big suits and the other runs a Crisis Suit list with a Fushion Blade commander.
Gamgee wrote: It's not off topic though it's an official GW article, but I'm done anyways. I've said what I had to. Primaris Marines are not "rumor" related either and should equally be taken to another discussion too. We see them now and know they are coming.
Also just go to the community website it's not hard to find.
THIS IS N&R.. NEWS&RUMOR NEWS... &...RUMOR
I didn't even see that there was new Tau info.. just people complaining about Tau.. but seriously.. if there is new Tau info .. News or Rumor.. the subject should probably include it
The articles not been out long and OP is but one person... give them a bit of time to keep it updated.
Hollow wrote: YOU don't know the rules of the Pulse rifle. Stop mixing and matching what the current rules are with new information about an entirely new edition.
I guess the Pulse Rifle could be given a -1 rend or maybe Str 6? I doubt it though. In the lore the longshot pulse rifle was the same damage as a pulse rifle but longer range is all. So unless we see regular pulse rifles get a buff over it it's fairly safe to assume the stats are the same at Str 5. It would be like seeing normal marines bolter go to str 6 -2 kind of weird.
Aren't they S5? So 30", S5, -1AP, Rapid Fire1.
Doesn't seem to be the same as the new Bolter.
Everything that was AP 5 has no rend so why should the Pulse Rifle have Rend?
Because it's currently AP4 IIRC.
Nope Ap 5. Your thinking of Firwarrior armor which is 4+.
No, I was thinking of the guns.
I could have sworn they had AP4 guns, but then again I don't see Firewarriors locally. One guy is more about the big suits and the other runs a Crisis Suit list with a Fushion Blade commander.
As Gamgee said, they are just AP5 and have been forever.
Space Marines are supposed to be humanity's finest. Genetics, equipment, training etc etc
And yet, GW seems to think that an average joe with a flashlight and some MDF armour, can survive a boltgun shot from a Space Marine...
By that logic, a middle aged, overweight guy like me, should be able to go toe to toe with a bad ass from Delta Force, SAS, Spetnaz, insert your special forces of choice here...
And here we are, with a new unit and a new boltgun that basic space marines should be getting anyway. If I buy a new car, I don't expect to have to turn up with a steering wheel and spark plugs.
I'm 400 miles away from GWHQ, but I can smell the horsegak from up here in the Scottish Highlands!
You're making some big leaps in logic there.
Just because you survived being shot doesn't mean you're going to win that fight. Special forces always get the latest gear before the regular troops. And even then soldiers don't often get new gear - they get what has been approved as the load out by the DoD.
New marines are not special forces. The Deathwatch/Grey Knights are which is pissing me off about nu marines all over again. God what stupid fluff man. Special Forces are not used in frontline combat all that much. That's more the rangers deal. Special Forces typically do clandestine military work off the field of battle, but I'm sure the nu-marines will retcon Deathwatch or just supplant them in the Inquisition.
That said, that's fine with me since they'll force more wounds on units than the new Bolter to save against, which means they'll probably come out close to the same against most targets in terms of wounds forced (and more wounds against T5 models).
...Anyway, I wonder if Stealth Suits or the Ghostkeel will have better stealth saves than the sniper drones or if this will be the "new" stealth. It's one of my favorite part of the Tau's M.O. so I hope it's still a significant thing rather than being a rather low-level modifier.
I mean it ins't that low level of a modifier. -1 to hit (assuming 6s always hit) is typically between a 25-50% increase in survivability (depending on the firing unit). That said the benefit only coming from not being closest hurts things like Stealth suits a lot if it works the same way.
I'd have to run the math, but it still seems like -1 to hit would still be a nerf to the utility of a stealth unit's survivability compared with previous version of the rule. It doesn't seem the same as say, a 2+ cover save which would negate a lot more fire.
Gamgee wrote: They show super strong stuff for everyone else, but when it comes to the Tau they show the nerfs. Why the heck would that inspire any confidence? At least show us something good to keep us calm.
Not calming down until I know we're not gutted. Not buying any more 40k if the final Tau rules are just terrible and they are one of the few non-viable factions like in AoS.
The fact that you see nerfs tells us all we need to know about how your reacting. What I saw is terrifying for anyone that doesn't have a decent 100% focused shooting army.
The fact that everybody is attacking me says more about why I'm so defensive in the first place.
"I'm allowed to say inane and have no one tell me I'm wrong."
This is not a safe space.
Not like that's going to stop you and the other white knights from trying to remove all differing opinions from the forum. How about you grow up and learn, like every other functioning adult, that not everyone has to agree with you.
So, uh, how many nu-marine shots will it take to destroy a landraider? : ) Wait, don't answer that.
Personally, I don't love another gang of +1 Marines running around, but OK. It would be cool if they gave them a disadvantage - these guys are bigger and stronger, but have less experience than others that have fought for centuries. That they can wear your current shoulder pads is a nice modeling touch, and you can give them a Beakie helmet, so I might use them at some point.
Things that stood out from the Tau preview:
Flamers do indeed hit automatically in overwatch, allowing you to build units (like T-Sons) that are practically immune to assault. Meh on that.
Lots of tau can leave combat and shoot you. So much for the "Well, the unit is out of action for a turn" theory. I'm Ok with it though.
Key words do have rules, since Fly has rules, unless the Tau army says "Everyone with Fly can leave combat". IDK. Does this mean that all jump troops can leave combat?
-1 to hit for stealth - well, it works great on Orks. Like alot of things apparently. I preffered the old night fighting rule myself.
MLaw wrote: All this noise about existing Tau stuff that is not rumor related is making it hard for me to find the rules for Primaris Marines (assuming they're actually in this thread). Can you guys please take the off-topic Tau convo to another thread?
..and.. if anyone knows what page whatever rules we know of for the Primaris Marines are please mention it?
Or you could just look on the community page - Comparing the new and old rules is perfectly on topic - not everthing is about Marines.
Wow, rule 1 dude..
The SUBJECT LINE is about Primaris Marines..
No, the SUBJECT is about 8E, in general, with a note that Primaris is merely the latest bit of news for 8E.
There is a separate Primaris Marines thread that should be largely Tau-free.
8E Tau commentary is definitely legit, as would be discussion tied to other earlier 8E topics such as Movement and Blasts and Eldar.
Space Marines are supposed to be humanity's finest. Genetics, equipment, training etc etc
Nope. Custodes
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: And yet, GW seems to think that an average joe with a flashlight and some MDF armour, can survive a boltgun shot from a Space Marine...
Boltguns will penetrate flak armour 66% of the time. I don't see the issue. Them NOT being able to deflect the odd boltgun shell would be unrealistic. You know, deflected glancing hits and stuff.
Disappointed that you weren't dragging out the good old "Lasguns can now kill Land Raiders! BULL****" argument again while you were throwing your tandrum, would have been the perfect opportunity in between all the ranting with those wierd RL analogies that don't even make much sense for the reasons others have pointed out.
Gamgee wrote: They show super strong stuff for everyone else, but when it comes to the Tau they show the nerfs. Why the heck would that inspire any confidence? At least show us something good to keep us calm.
Not calming down until I know we're not gutted. Not buying any more 40k if the final Tau rules are just terrible and they are one of the few non-viable factions like in AoS.
The fact that you see nerfs tells us all we need to know about how your reacting. What I saw is terrifying for anyone that doesn't have a decent 100% focused shooting army.
The fact that everybody is attacking me says more about why I'm so defensive in the first place.
"I'm allowed to say inane and have no one tell me I'm wrong."
This is not a safe space.
Not like that's going to stop you and the other white knights from trying to remove all differing opinions from the forum. How about you grow up and learn, like every other functioning adult, that not everyone has to agree with you.
Not agreeing that an army is ruined or worthless based on little to no actual rules information is not the same as white knighting.
Emperor's crack I swear some people seem to just want a reason to point fingers and name call.
Gamgee wrote: They show super strong stuff for everyone else, but when it comes to the Tau they show the nerfs. Why the heck would that inspire any confidence? At least show us something good to keep us calm.
Not calming down until I know we're not gutted. Not buying any more 40k if the final Tau rules are just terrible and they are one of the few non-viable factions like in AoS.
The fact that you see nerfs tells us all we need to know about how your reacting. What I saw is terrifying for anyone that doesn't have a decent 100% focused shooting army.
The fact that everybody is attacking me says more about why I'm so defensive in the first place.
"I'm allowed to say inane and have no one tell me I'm wrong."
This is not a safe space.
Not like that's going to stop you and the other white knights from trying to remove all differing opinions from the forum. How about you grow up and learn, like every other functioning adult, that not everyone has to agree with you.
There's a difference between having an opinion and making baseless assumptions and yelling nonsense based on nothing. One should be respected, the other shouldn't be.
Space Marines are supposed to be humanity's finest. Genetics, equipment, training etc etc
And yet, GW seems to think that an average joe with a flashlight and some MDF armour, can survive a boltgun shot from a Space Marine...
By that logic, a middle aged, overweight guy like me, should be able to go toe to toe with a bad ass from Delta Force, SAS, Spetnaz, insert your special forces of choice here...
I don't feel like that's a fair analogy. For all the jokes about guardsmen, they're not the "average joe". They have had _some_ training. You want to talk Average Joe, think conscripts, and even then it should probably be presumed that they have had some sort of training, albeit far less.
I think it's a great change, if for no other reason than the fact that armor should have some kind of magic "all or nothing" effect where you're either wearing fully effective armor or absolutely no armor at all, whereas in reality, armor should still be somewhat protective, albeit less so against the really large shots.
And here we are, with a new unit and a new boltgun that basic space marines should be getting anyway. If I buy a new car, I don't expect to have to turn up with a steering wheel and spark plugs.
I'm 400 miles away from GWHQ, but I can smell the horsegak from up here in the Scottish Highlands!
I'm surprised you're surprised. I don't think we've seen a new codex or rules release that didn't include at least some shiny new must-have somewhere. I can't think of a codex since I started at the start of 5th that didn't include at least one new unit. Embrace the HHHHHobby!
Not like that's going to stop you and the other white knights from trying to remove all differing opinions from the forum. How about you grow up and learn, like every other functioning adult, that not everyone has to agree with you.
Go back to the start of that thread and try again.
Bringing it down to grenades anyone notice the frag grenade is d6 ... the battle cannon is d6 and the obv comparison of editions is one was small blast and the other large.
I wonder if the reduced range is gonna mean all guys in a unit can lob one! that'd maybe explain the reduced pistol costs and lead to some scary scary close enagements.
With split fire also the krak grenade is a nice little s6 d3 wounds shot you can chuck at an lighttank/transport before charging a unit
kestral wrote: Any guesses on how "Fly" will be different from "Flyer"? Is a thunderhawk basically a giant tau drone with a good move score?
Just that they fly when moving not that they are flying 100% of the time. There probably won't be a 'flyer' rule. Just modifiers based on how that flyer behaves.
Latro_ wrote: Bringing it down to grenades anyone notice the frag grenade is d6 ... the battle cannon is d6 and the obv comparison of editions is one was small blast and the other large.
I wonder if the reduced range is gonna mean all guys in a unit can lob one! that'd maybe explain the reduced pistol costs.
I am thinking they can all lob it given the very short range.
kestral wrote: Any guesses on how "Fly" will be different from "Flyer"? Is a thunderhawk basically a giant tau drone with a good move score?
That may not be far off. You'll probably be able to ignore any intervening terrain and move up to your maximum move statistic. It would be weird to have a squad of regular guardsmen assault a stormraven for instance though--which could very well be possible unless there are additional rules. Who knows though?
Space Marines are supposed to be humanity's finest. Genetics, equipment, training etc etc
And yet, GW seems to think that an average joe with a flashlight and some MDF armour, can survive a boltgun shot from a Space Marine...
By that logic, a middle aged, overweight guy like me, should be able to go toe to toe with a bad ass from Delta Force, SAS, Spetnaz, insert your special forces of choice here...
And here we are, with a new unit and a new boltgun that basic space marines should be getting anyway. If I buy a new car, I don't expect to have to turn up with a steering wheel and spark plugs.
I'm 400 miles away from GWHQ, but I can smell the horsegak from up here in the Scottish Highlands!
This here is why focusing too much on the fluff can be detrimental to your and the people around you's mental health. I don't give one goddam about who's weapons can kill who or what fat people can run where or whatever bullgak FAAC players keep pulling out to impose OUR reality's rules on a setting where giant daemons can explode out of a guy's head because he thunk too hard.
The models are cool and the rules seem fine. If they perform well on the tabletop('oh but they'll be powercreeped to make you buy them!' GW doesn't know how to play warhammer well enough to do that on purpose.) I could give a fat gak what the background is and I'm better off for it.
This here is why focusing too much on the fluff can be detrimental to your and the people around you's mental health. I don't give one goddam about who's weapons can kill who or what fat people can run where or whatever bullgak FAAC players keep pulling out to impose OUR reality's rules on a setting where giant daemons can explode out of a guy's head because he thunk too hard.
The models are cool and the rules seem fine. If they perform well on the tabletop('oh but they'll be powercreeped to make you buy them!' GW doesn't know how to play warhammer well enough to do that on purpose.) I could give a fat gak what the background is and I'm better off for it.
Oooh, ooh, maybe it suddenly protects guardsmen because RG (who many guardsman consider their "spiritual liege") bestowed better flak armor upon all the guard across all the worlds. Sure. Why not?
In AoS, Flying just lets you move over units and terrain as if they weren't there Much like Jump or Jet does in 7th, might have new rules in NewHammer.
This here is why focusing too much on the fluff can be detrimental to your and the people around you's mental health. I don't give one goddam about who's weapons can kill who or what fat people can run where or whatever bullgak FAAC players keep pulling out to impose OUR reality's rules on a setting where giant daemons can explode out of a guy's head because he thunk too hard.
The models are cool and the rules seem fine. If they perform well on the tabletop('oh but they'll be powercreeped to make you buy them!' GW doesn't know how to play warhammer well enough to do that on purpose.) I could give a fat gak what the background is and I'm better off for it.
kestral wrote: Any guesses on how "Fly" will be different from "Flyer"? Is a thunderhawk basically a giant tau drone with a good move score?
I figure 'Fly' will just allow you to ignore Difficult and Dangerous terrain (if that's still a thing )
Reallllly wish they didnt use that keyword.
looks odd imho. i think jump or jet would of been fine but now im imagining these things up like a mile high flying around like an actual flyer.
Honestly, it's not a huge deal.
I would expect "Fly" will allow for you to do what Requizen says(move over intervening models and terrain).
I said it elsewhere, but I think this is another case of "Bad article is bad". There's no mention of the Sniper Drone being able to leave a Combat and fire without penalty despite it also having the "Fly" keyword.
I fully expect there to be a couple of things going on with this: a) Suits have the ability to move and fire with no penalty. b) Suits have an ability to leave combat and function normally. c) Suits have an ability that allows for you to get far enough away to be able to fire(remember that you cannot fire if a unit is within a certain distance of you).
Requizen wrote: In AoS, Flying just lets you move over units and terrain as if they weren't there Much like Jump or Jet does in 7th, might have new rules in NewHammer.
Yeah functionally it works. and i bet flyers will get something like momentum that forces them to move a certain way like they hinted at
i just dont like the idea of my drones "flying" more like hovering ya know?
I would expect "Fly" will allow for you to do what Requizen says(move over intervening models and terrain).
I said it elsewhere, but I think this is another case of "Bad article is bad". There's no mention of the Sniper Drone being able to leave a Combat and fire without penalty despite it also having the "Fly" keyword.
I fully expect there to be a couple of things going on with this: a) Suits have the ability to move and fire with no penalty. b) Suits have an ability to leave combat and function normally. c) Suits have an ability that allows for you to get far enough away to be able to fire(remember that you cannot fire if a unit is within a certain distance of you).
Well its a teaser they cant give everything away that easily. and im sure a lot of the blog writers have their hands tied.
im expecting crisis suits will have some special walking battle ship type rule that is a little weaker. like can move out of combat and shoot but at a partial negative like -1 to hit or something. that requires friendly units to help bolster up like marker lights. though flamers are sounding intresting since auto hitting
Space Marines are supposed to be humanity's finest. Genetics, equipment, training etc etc
And yet, GW seems to think that an average joe with a flashlight and some MDF armour, can survive a boltgun shot from a Space Marine...
By that logic, a middle aged, overweight guy like me, should be able to go toe to toe with a bad ass from Delta Force, SAS, Spetnaz, insert your special forces of choice here...
And here we are, with a new unit and a new boltgun that basic space marines should be getting anyway. If I buy a new car, I don't expect to have to turn up with a steering wheel and spark plugs.
I'm 400 miles away from GWHQ, but I can smell the horsegak from up here in the Scottish Highlands!
This here is why focusing too much on the fluff can be detrimental to your and the people around you's mental health. I don't give one goddam about who's weapons can kill who or what fat people can run where or whatever bullgak FAAC players keep pulling out to impose OUR reality's rules on a setting where giant daemons can explode out of a guy's head because he thunk too hard.
The models are cool and the rules seem fine. If they perform well on the tabletop('oh but they'll be powercreeped to make you buy them!' GW doesn't know how to play warhammer well enough to do that on purpose.) I could give a fat gak what the background is and I'm better off for it.
I'm a fluff player at heart, but this is definitely one of those cases where the rules are more important. Laying fluff significance on a particular implementation of gameplay mechanics is a recipe for disappointment every time.
Baseline infantry guns should not get armor penetration as standard because it skews the game and makes infantry armor pointless. If a new fancy elite unit comes out whose standard weapons do have AP, and they pay for it properly in points and loadout flexibility, that's fine. If that means that flak armor protects against Boltguns on a 5+ and Bolt Rifles on a 6+, then that's an insignificant fluff price to pay.
The models look great, really looking forward to seeing more of the range(especially the new Dread and tank). Knowing that the existing heads and shoulder pads are compatible is also good news.
Fingers crossed that the fluff around these guys is at least semi decent. How they interact with the rest of the Imperium and the repercussions of there creation have a lot of potential.
I welcome these models. Now us modellers have the option of having "buy in a box" true scale marines without having to resort to the painstaking process of converting them one by one.
All of the spacemarine players crying about being given new models to collect (I really don't like space marines but these ones are amazing) and complaing about fluff problems, while all of the ork players are sitting here sweating about weather or not we will actually be able to play a game and win, comical.
Honestly if there's any models that's ever made me want to start marines it's these guys I just hope to God people don't flock to them because exno sales will drop and it will give GW no incentive to make any new models for xeno players.
Ask your self truthfully would you be as happy collecting and playing if all you ever fought was other spacemarines painted a different colour?
I sure like that new plasma gun, I hope these primaris marines also get a grav gun and flamer. Just cause these roided out versions of the old weapons look so cool. I'm content with the rules i'm seeing for them so far. And the idea that these are more expensive is good. This means I might be able to actual build and assemble a proper 40k army. So its looking like less work to get a functioning army. I'll probably get the starter and then work up to 1k points cause I prefer smaller games.
I already know i'm going to get these, it's inevitable at this point. The hardest thing is going to be picking a chaper.
Requizen wrote: In AoS, Flying just lets you move over units and terrain as if they weren't there Much like Jump or Jet does in 7th, might have new rules in NewHammer.
Yeah functionally it works. and i bet flyers will get something like momentum that forces them to move a certain way like they hinted at
i just dont like the idea of my drones "flying" more like hovering ya know?
Makes more sense than jump or jetpack stuff just moving in rocket powered bunny hops.
Tau look like its the same old problem. You will see boring armies composed of resilient platforms mounting heavy guns and everything else will be second tier and rarely seen. I could be wrong but there is nothing in the article to suggest otherwise.
Tau have always suffered for being so one dimensional. If shooting is good (like in 7th) then they will expect to table you in 3-4 turns unless you have a very good alpha strike or a GW recognised broken deathstar arrangement. If it isn't as good then Tau will just generally be seen as a weak army (as I think was the case back in 5th).
On a personal level I am sick to death of seeing riptides so if they remain the obvious go to unit I will be sad.
New marines don't really bother me (don't play marines, probably never will) but I do think their fluff and general feel is pretty bad. Its true that Space Marines are weapons and weapons become obsolete. At the same time though it seems kind of... broken to just say "oh sorry, you all suck now". We now have the new Intercessors which will probably be joined by new assault/devastator equivalents.
I don't buy for one second that tactical marines will be better in certain situations. This never happens. You will take one or you will take the other based on probabilities and points.
Requizen wrote: In AoS, Flying just lets you move over units and terrain as if they weren't there Much like Jump or Jet does in 7th, might have new rules in NewHammer.
Yeah functionally it works. and i bet flyers will get something like momentum that forces them to move a certain way like they hinted at
i just dont like the idea of my drones "flying" more like hovering ya know?
Yeah I think it's so they have a catch-all rule for everything with wings, jetpacks, jumppacks and whatever semi-flying models you have.
Requizen wrote: In AoS, Flying just lets you move over units and terrain as if they weren't there Much like Jump or Jet does in 7th, might have new rules in NewHammer.
Yeah functionally it works. and i bet flyers will get something like momentum that forces them to move a certain way like they hinted at
i just dont like the idea of my drones "flying" more like hovering ya know?
Makes more sense than jump or jetpack stuff just moving in rocket powered bunny hops.
to be fair jump packs are kinda depicted as bunny hopping in the space marine games
Latro_ wrote: Bringing it down to grenades anyone notice the frag grenade is d6 ... the battle cannon is d6 and the obv comparison of editions is one was small blast and the other large.
I wonder if the reduced range is gonna mean all guys in a unit can lob one! that'd maybe explain the reduced pistol costs.
I am thinking they can all lob it given the very short range.
Second question can they do like AOS and shoot everything they have at once.
At short range bolter+frag+krak=lots of attacks.
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ERJAK wrote: This here is why focusing too much on the fluff can be detrimental to your and the people around you's mental health. I don't give one goddam about who's weapons can kill who or what fat people can run where or whatever bullgak FAAC players keep pulling out to impose OUR reality's rules on a setting where giant daemons can explode out of a guy's head because he thunk too hard.
The models are cool and the rules seem fine. If they perform well on the tabletop('oh but they'll be powercreeped to make you buy them!' GW doesn't know how to play warhammer well enough to do that on purpose.) I could give a fat gak what the background is and I'm better off for it.
For some game is nothing without fluff. Let's face purely from gaming aspect there are tons better games out there than 40k is or can ever be. It needs something else. Models also aren't best of the best so not that either...
New marines don't really bother me (don't play marines, probably never will) but I do think their fluff and general feel is pretty bad. Its true that Space Marines are weapons and weapons become obsolete. At the same time though it seems kind of... broken to just say "oh sorry, you all suck now". We now have the new Intercessors which will probably be joined by new assault/devastator equivalents.
I don't buy for one second that tactical marines will be better in certain situations. This never happens. You will take one or you will take the other based on probabilities and points.
You lose three Primaris Marines out of a squad of 5.
You roll a 6 for your Morale test.
You've now lost another Primaris Marine.
Morale, like Battleshock, doesn't cause Wounds or whatever. It just removes models.
Space Marines are supposed to be humanity's finest. Genetics, equipment, training etc etc
And yet, GW seems to think that an average joe with a flashlight and some MDF armour, can survive a boltgun shot from a Space Marine...
By that logic, a middle aged, overweight guy like me, should be able to go toe to toe with a bad ass from Delta Force, SAS, Spetnaz, insert your special forces of choice here...
And here we are, with a new unit and a new boltgun that basic space marines should be getting anyway. If I buy a new car, I don't expect to have to turn up with a steering wheel and spark plugs.
I'm 400 miles away from GWHQ, but I can smell the horsegak from up here in the Scottish Highlands!
This here is why focusing too much on the fluff can be detrimental to your and the people around you's mental health. I don't give one goddam about who's weapons can kill who or what fat people can run where or whatever bullgak FAAC players keep pulling out to impose OUR reality's rules on a setting where giant daemons can explode out of a guy's head because he thunk too hard.
The models are cool and the rules seem fine. If they perform well on the tabletop('oh but they'll be powercreeped to make you buy them!' GW doesn't know how to play warhammer well enough to do that on purpose.) I could give a fat gak what the background is and I'm better off for it.
I'll say this to you and anybody else who is reading this post: they are nice models. They're smooth and streamlined, and on this point, I agree with you 100%
The design is not the issue for me.
If GW had said, hey, it's 30 years of 40k, here's some celebration Space Marines for you guys, and hopefully, we might make some cash from the sentimental dollar, then fair enough.
But to me, I think they have made boltguns weaker as a deliberate choice, not a game design choice, but a choice so that they can spring these new marines on us and force people to pay more money for standard issue equipment they should be getting anyway.
That's a cynical move straight from the Tom Kirby playbook!
Thargrim wrote: I sure like that new plasma gun, I hope these primaris marines also get a grav gun and flamer. Just cause these roided out versions of the old weapons look so cool. I'm content with the rules i'm seeing for them so far. And the idea that these are more expensive is good. This means I might be able to actual build and assemble a proper 40k army. So its looking like less work to get a functioning army. I'll probably get the starter and then work up to 1k points cause I prefer smaller games.
I already know i'm going to get these, it's inevitable at this point. The hardest thing is going to be picking a chaper.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: But to me, I think they have made boltguns weaker as a deliberate choice, not a game design choice, but a choice so that they can spring these new marines on us and force people to pay more money for standard issue equipment they should be getting anyway.
That's a cynical move straight from the Tom Kirby playbook!
Seeing this means they put 0 AP for tons of other guns as well just to promote these...Seems bit far scretched.
Damn, I hope the AP nothing on those Sniper Drone Pulse Rifles is not going to be the same for standard FW. They need something to prove that they're superior at shooting compared to the other races!
YAAAAAAYYYYYYYY *RUNS AROUND BEFORE DIVING INTO THE ARTICLE LIKE SCROOGE MCDUCK DIVING INTO HIS MONEY VAULT*
MWUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
So T'au Battlesuits and our second (Rubrics were the first right? No others right?) full profile (Drones)
The Battlesuits get the ability to leave combat and fire into it. Flames are now HUGE and since Twin-Link just gives you more shots there is now no difference to it and taking a second weapon except that the Twin-Link has to hit the same unit though... Hmmmm
If GW had said, hey, it's 30 years of 40k, here's some celebration Space Marines for you guys, and hopefully, we might make some cash from the sentimental dollar, then fair enough.
But to me, I think they have made boltguns weaker as a deliberate choice, not a game design choice, but a choice so that they can spring these new marines on us and force people to pay more money for standard issue equipment they should be getting anyway.
That's a cynical move straight from the Tom Kirby playbook!
Yet there is the Tau AP5 sniper rifle also with no rend. And the Rubric bolter is commensurate with an AP3 weapon.
Megaknob wrote: All of the spacemarine players crying about being given new models to collect (I really don't like space marines but these ones are amazing) and complaing about fluff problems, while all of the ork players are sitting here sweating about weather or not we will actually be able to play a game and win, comical.
Honestly if there's any models that's ever made me want to start marines it's these guys I just hope to God people don't flock to them because exno sales will drop and it will give GW no incentive to make any new models for xeno players.
Ask your self truthfully would you be as happy collecting and playing if all you ever fought was other spacemarines painted a different colour?
Actually, I expect those marines to sell tons, so GW has spare money to jump and make more risky choices that aren't gonna be so popular. As Azrael13 said in other post, when a company has spare money, they can try to innovate.
We have Genestealer Cults for that reason, for example.
If GW began to sink again, then we'll see the real Space Marine spam.
And actually, we have see that. 40K primarchs were the panic button of GW, and it appears that they have pressed that 1-2 years ago. So I just wish them to make more money, to be free to give me more xenos and innovative armies and factions.
While both of these models appear to be armed with shuriken catapults, one of them has a better gun. Now Marine players has Dire Avengers and Guardians also.
Or you could put it this way: NuMarines have the size and stats that people think Marines should have from the fluff. NuMarines are actually real or fluff Marines. Original Flavour Marines are just glorified Stormtroopers.
New marines don't really bother me (don't play marines, probably never will) but I do think their fluff and general feel is pretty bad. Its true that Space Marines are weapons and weapons become obsolete. At the same time though it seems kind of... broken to just say "oh sorry, you all suck now". We now have the new Intercessors which will probably be joined by new assault/devastator equivalents.
I don't buy for one second that tactical marines will be better in certain situations. This never happens. You will take one or you will take the other based on probabilities and points.
You lose three Primaris Marines out of a squad of 5.
You roll a 6 for your Morale test.
You've now lost another Primaris Marine.
Morale, like Battleshock, doesn't cause Wounds or whatever. It just removes models.
Sure. They will be a bit more vulnerable to a combination of multiple-wound weapons and battleshock. I guess if they are good everyone will start packing d3 damage dealing weapons (plasma?) which might not be so good against regular tacticals (although if they have a good rend they might still be desirable).
Against regular arms though if you lost 3 Primaris you would have lost 6 tacticals. In which case the 6 on your Morale test would kill of a further 4 which probably wipes the squad.
To which you might say "when was the last time you saw a ten man tactical squad" but still.
We don't have enough information to know but I feel the meta will fall out one way or the other. It almost always does.
We don't have enough information to know but I feel the meta will fall out one way or the other. It almost always does.
Well, I mean, you never saw Paladins AND GK Terminators at the same time on the board, but I would see a lot of one or the other (granted, the meta was definitely with Paladins).
...But to me, I think they have made boltguns weaker as a deliberate choice, not a game design choice, but a choice so that they can spring these new marines on us and force people to pay more money for standard issue equipment they should be getting anyway.
Actually, I don't think this is the case. Think about the way the new system is set up. A melta is -4 (AP1), A Lascannon is -3 (AP2), Inferno Boltgun is -2 (AP3) a Heavy Bolter is -1 (AP4), and a bolter is 0 because you've run out of space to modify a lesser weapon penetration power than what was previously AP4.
Everyone seems to have read the comment about one Markerlight hit allowing rerolls of "1"s and assumes that all Markerlights do now. I read it as that's what one hit does. I would assume more hits allowing you to reroll higher misses. 2 hits reroll 1s and 2s, 3 hits reroll 1s, 2s, and 3s, etc. You may even get to increase rend value if you managed to get enough hits. Just pointing out that, once again, we only have a portion of the rules, so I wouldn't write your new anti-Tau (T'au?) strategy in ink just yet.
...But to me, I think they have made boltguns weaker as a deliberate choice, not a game design choice, but a choice so that they can spring these new marines on us and force people to pay more money for standard issue equipment they should be getting anyway.
Actually, I don't think this is the case. Think about the way the new system is set up. A melta is -4 (AP1), A Lascannon is -3 (AP2), Inferno Boltgun is -2 (AP3) a Heavy Bolter is -1 (AP4), and a bolter is 0 because you've run out of space to modify a lesser weapon penetration power than what was previously AP4.
I'd argue this was a deliberate design choice to make room for weaker armour save based assault armies (Orks, Nids) in a game that is largely dependant on shooting.
Plus a -4 doesn't negate a 2+ armour save completely, so that was likely another factor.
...But to me, I think they have made boltguns weaker as a deliberate choice, not a game design choice, but a choice so that they can spring these new marines on us and force people to pay more money for standard issue equipment they should be getting anyway.
Actually, I don't think this is the case. Think about the way the new system is set up. A melta is -4 (AP1), A Lascannon is -3 (AP2), Inferno Boltgun is -2 (AP3) a Heavy Bolter is -1 (AP4), and a bolter is 0 because you've run out of space to modify a lesser weapon penetration power than what was previously AP4.
I'd argue this was a deliberate design choice to make room for weaker armour save based assault armies (Orks, Nids) in a game that is largely dependant on shooting.
Plus a -4 doesn't negate a 2+ armour save completely, so that was likely another factor.
I agree with that. I just can't fathom the hilarity of believing that GW has re-engineered the entire AP system of "New 40k" just to screw over bolters and force everyone to buy NuMarines.
Never pleasing some folk. When the first couple of faction focus articles came out, people cried and complained that it was all just substance free market speech from an over-eager faction fluffer. They then put in a few key bits of info, plus a complete unit profile and "It's only a drone waaaah".
I like the NuMarines a lot. I think as models they look great and I think that it shows respect from GW towards people who have been collecting marines, that they aren't just a flat-out replacement. It may be the case that these will gradually phase out the older marines, but I think they are doing it in an admirable fashion.
EnTyme wrote: Everyone seems to have read the comment about one Markerlight hit allowing rerolls of "1"s and assumes that all Markerlights do now. I read it as that's what one hit does. I would assume more hits allowing you to reroll higher misses. 2 hits reroll 1s and 2s, 3 hits reroll 1s, 2s, and 3s, etc. You may even get to increase rend value if you managed to get enough hits. Just pointing out that, once again, we only have a portion of the rules, so I wouldn't write your new anti-Tau (T'au?) strategy in ink just yet.
I had the same thought - I like the pondering on rend being added. That could be interesting.
Screw over bolters? Some armies are finally getting to actually use their armor saves for the first time ever and all we're thinking about is how it hurts the poor space marines Q_Q
Don Savik wrote: Screw over bolters? Some armies are finally getting to actually use their armor saves for the first time ever and all we're thinking about is how it hurts the poor space marines Q_Q
And they shall know no hurt feelings.
If you were out in the open and stupid yeah Bolters weren't deadly. Then they got worse with how easy it is to obtain cover.
NU-Marines kinda invalidate normal marines in every way. I expect an AoS situation were all future releases will be NU-Marine and the current range will be phased out over the next couple of years. Just look at what happened to the fantasy line, where loads of kits have gone out of production to make way for stormcasts.
After all these years space marine are becoming a legacy range. It's the end of an era.
Space Marines are supposed to be humanity's finest. Genetics, equipment, training etc etc
And yet, GW seems to think that an average joe with a flashlight and some MDF armour, can survive a boltgun shot from a Space Marine...
By that logic, a middle aged, overweight guy like me, should be able to go toe to toe with a bad ass from Delta Force, SAS, Spetnaz, insert your special forces of choice here...
And here we are, with a new unit and a new boltgun that basic space marines should be getting anyway. If I buy a new car, I don't expect to have to turn up with a steering wheel and spark plugs.
I'm 400 miles away from GWHQ, but I can smell the horsegak from up here in the Scottish Highlands!
This here is why focusing too much on the fluff can be detrimental to your and the people around you's mental health. I don't give one goddam about who's weapons can kill who or what fat people can run where or whatever bullgak FAAC players keep pulling out to impose OUR reality's rules on a setting where giant daemons can explode out of a guy's head because he thunk too hard.
The models are cool and the rules seem fine. If they perform well on the tabletop('oh but they'll be powercreeped to make you buy them!' GW doesn't know how to play warhammer well enough to do that on purpose.) I could give a fat gak what the background is and I'm better off for it.
I'll say this to you and anybody else who is reading this post: they are nice models. They're smooth and streamlined, and on this point, I agree with you 100%
The design is not the issue for me.
If GW had said, hey, it's 30 years of 40k, here's some celebration Space Marines for you guys, and hopefully, we might make some cash from the sentimental dollar, then fair enough.
But to me, I think they have made boltguns weaker as a deliberate choice, not a game design choice, but a choice so that they can spring these new marines on us and force people to pay more money for standard issue equipment they should be getting anyway.
That's a cynical move straight from the Tom Kirby playbook!
You'll still need your tacticles for hand to hand, unless of course RG thought close combat weapons might be a good idea and had them made for a different unit of Primaris Close Combat Marines.
Tamereth wrote: NU-Marines kinda invalidate normal marines in every way. I expect an AoS situation were all future releases will be NU-Marine and the current range will be phased out over the next couple of years. Just look at what happened to the fantasy line, where loads of kits have gone out of production to make way for stormcasts.
After all these years space marine are becoming a legacy range. It's the end of an era.
Is just a change in model-range scale done throug time, not at one go.
Even the new fluff will be irrelevant. When all the old marines die in the future, only the Primaris Space Marines will exist, so basically the situation in the fluff will come again to the same state of Normal Humans and Superhumans.
People will be mad one way or the other, but this way then can still sell all the Space Marines kits.
You'll still need your tacticles for hand to hand, unless of course RG thought close combat weapons might be a good idea and had them made for a different unit of Primaris Close Combat Marines.
He did I am sure. See the plasma guys above.
It's going to be a choice between taking an army of elite elites not much different than Thousand Sons now or getting more models (and guns) onto the table. Or a mix of both.
I just finished reading the community thing about Intercession Marines and where it mentions they won't have specialist or heavy weapons. I immediately thought of some of the older style army books where you had to take specialist squads for that sort of thing. Fully expect that P.Marines will have the options for those types of weapons but their standard Tac marines will be just that. List fillers that can slowly erode most other standard "grunt" style infantry units. If anything, GW mentioning special vehicles for the P.Marines means they'll at least have some heavier firepower in that vein.
What I am wondering.. since they mentioned that they can be fielded alongside IG.. which, Intercession Marines would basically be side-scaled Ogryn (for functional purposes).. which leaves a question about points cost and equivalency.
Also.. that lower leadership will take some getting used to..
People will be mad one way or the other, but this way then can still sell all the Space Marines kits.
That and they don't feel kicked out the door. Imagine if they discontinued all the old kits right now? It's going to be years and years before the old kits fade out.
Sure they invalidate marines, if you dont look at points at all, or know how marines options change.......or how many d3 wound weapons there are in the game(see tau missile pods).....Or how that slot into FOC.......So on and so forth.
New marines are really no different than going from smaller metal marines to slightly larger plastic marines and now we finally reach truescale size marines. They are all the same crap just a small change in stats to justify the new models. And there really is no point to non assault close combat new marines since new marines are likely worst than custodes in close combat.
Odds are new marines will find thier place in the new imperium list along with regular marines and whatever other imperial faction stew you create. But considering new marines are options in basic Astartes armies and there is a huge lack of options for new marines compared to the gw/FW pot luck. I expect the best list to be mostly astartes and a token new marine unit if they aren't overshadowed by centurions or terminators
Leth wrote: Sure they invalidate marines, if you dont look at points at all, or know how marines options change.......or how many d3 wound weapons there are in the game(see tau missile pods).....Or how that slot into FOC.......So on and so forth.
Yea this is why i'm not concerned. I still think eventually they will be 'the marines', because it seems unlikely for GW to make an 'old marine' kit to update them now that they've moved to this scale.
I suppose my only other worry is that will people be so enamored with them that the old marines fade much more quickly on the tabletop? That isn't a real problem - it just makes me a feel a little sad in some odd way.
I love how Chaos Marines got screwed over again with a totally wishy washy no info faction focus, and other factions are getting stats and actual information in theirs.
Rubrics are Thousand Sons, I don't care about them, we got nothing for generic CSM.
Leth wrote: Sure they invalidate marines, if you dont look at points at all, or know how marines options change.......or how many d3 wound weapons there are in the game(see tau missile pods).....Or how that slot into FOC.......So on and so forth.
I agree with this for the most part.
However, I'd like to point out that the amount of D3/D6 damage weapons out there is likely to be about the same as the weapons that previously would have just caused Instant Death. A Lascannon also now has the potential to only do 1 wound to these guys (albeit a small chance) and they'll get to roll for a 6 armour save out in the open too.
Given this, I'd say it's ok to a least assume the NuMarines are noticeably better than 7E Marines given 2 wounds and Rending Bolters.
We also know they are Troops because they have the Troop symbol on their datasheet.
Loopstah wrote: I love how Chaos Marines got screwed over again with a totally wishy washy no info faction focus, and other factions are getting stats and actual information in theirs.
Rubrics are Thousand Sons, I don't care about them, we got nothing for generic CSM.
They've made mention of the Black Legion. Everything in due time.
Leth wrote: Sure they invalidate marines, if you dont look at points at all, or know how marines options change.......or how many d3 wound weapons there are in the game(see tau missile pods).....Or how that slot into FOC.......So on and so forth.
Yeah.. and seriously.. Intercessors are LD7 with their Sgt holding a whopping LD8.. That's pretty big. Any sort of thing that targets LD will hurt them, especially with fewer models on the table. EDIT: I see they still have Know No Fear.
As for the people panicing they somehow invalidate regular marines - you high?
They are tougher and slightly deadlier marines, but with a preset equipment and no options.
If deathwatch, gray knights and custodian, who all practically fall under the category of "better marines" in some form didn't do it, why would those?
Actually, forget invalidating regular marines. I'm not sure this unit is even viable. Depends on its cost. If it costs substantial over regular marines, I wouldn't bother.
They just ain't that good. Look at rubrics to compare what is a powerhouse "special marine". Half the wounds, but still tougher to kill, and deadlier.
Loopstah wrote: I love how Chaos Marines got screwed over again with a totally wishy washy no info faction focus, and other factions are getting stats and actual information in theirs.
Rubrics are Thousand Sons, I don't care about them, we got nothing for generic CSM.
I get the feeling generic csm will just be generic sm
with a lot of splash things like the new nurgle or the new tsons stuff to make an army more interesting.
and have no one tell me I'm wrong."
