Hollow wrote: Or they listened to what people were asking for in regards to the articles and have started to incorporate more info?
They mention in the FAQs how do new marines effect us.
I play chaos where are my new marines.
They responded with don't worry did you see the new death guard trailer, there are a lot new super monsters on their way to you chaos has not been idle.
So get ready for Saturday morning cartoon villains.
Hollow wrote: Or they listened to what people were asking for in regards to the articles and have started to incorporate more info?
They mention in the FAQs how do new marines effect us.
I play chaos where are my new marines.
They responded with don't worry did you see the new death guard trailer, there are a lot new super monsters on their way to you chaos has not been idle.
So get ready for Saturday morning cartoon villains.
So you don't like the new Deathguard?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Latro_ wrote: It will be interesting to see how they cost the new marines in pts because if they get it wrong they'll be terminators 'light'
5 Rubrics are PL6 (8 for 4 and a sorcerer). The numarines are also PL6. These guys are at least 20 points, if not more.
Hollow wrote: Or they listened to what people were asking for in regards to the articles and have started to incorporate more info?
They mention in the FAQs how do new marines effect us.
I play chaos where are my new marines.
They responded with don't worry did you see the new death guard trailer, there are a lot new super monsters on their way to you chaos has not been idle.
So get ready for Saturday morning cartoon villains.
So you don't like the new Deathguard?
not everyone likes death guard heck i honestly hate the over representation of Corn and nurgle. t sons was refreshing and i cant wait for slannesh
The fluff is of course stupid, that was to be expected, but I'm glad that they're available to all chapters. We really need more details to evaluate how painful the new fluff is. I really hope that they keep the normal marine recruiting method, as that is a really important for establishing cultural connections to the recruitment worlds and giving different chapters some unique flavour.
The models look absolutely amazing. Top notch. My only complaint is that they're all pretty much identical. A big part of what makes assembling marines fun is that they have all these slightly varied components you get to combine. Slightly different helmets, chest pieces etc. Nothing like that with these guys. (This is the same issue I had with Stormcasts, assembling them became only fun when they released those Vanguard-Hunters, and I got to kitbash them with Standard Liberators.)
Then the rules. The stats and the weapon stats are pretty much what I expected, but I am absolutely shocked by the lack of options, even for the sergeant. It is really boring that every squad will be identical. Gaming-wise it is underwhelming, and really a shame considering that the new spit fire rules make mixed-weapon squads really viable. Also, from modelling perspective this is really bad, as you don't get to build differently armed sergeants etc. I really hope that this is just a datasheet for the starter box squad, and lacks options because those models don't have them, and we get a better datasheet with the release of the multipart box (this happened with the Stormcast Liberators.)
Latro_ wrote: It will be interesting to see how they cost the new marines in pts because if they get it wrong they'll be terminators 'light'
the trade off is a buffed marine but without assault and heavy weapons. I'll gladly sacrifice the wounds for sternguard / assault squads.
On another note tau seem pretty slick given flamers seem really good this edition. Like AOS stormfiend good... guess will have to wait till all the rules come out!
Latro_ wrote: It will be interesting to see how they cost the new marines in pts because if they get it wrong they'll be terminators 'light'
the trade off is a buffed marine but without assault and heavy weapons. I'll gladly sacrifice the wounds for sternguard / assault squads.
On another note tau seem pretty slick given flamers seem really good this edition. Like AOS stormfiend good guess will have to wait till all the rules come out!
There are images of numarines with plasma rifles and speculation so far is that they are going to act a bit like HH marines. bolter dude unit, special weapons dude units, heavy weapons guys and so on.
it kinda makes sense since girlyman used to organize that way though he also kinda wrote the whole codex thing so i dunno.
Hollow wrote: Or they listened to what people were asking for in regards to the articles and have started to incorporate more info?
They mention in the FAQs how do new marines effect us.
I play chaos where are my new marines.
They responded with don't worry did you see the new death guard trailer, there are a lot new super monsters on their way to you chaos has not been idle.
So get ready for Saturday morning cartoon villains.
So you don't like the new Deathguard?
not everyone likes death guard heck i honestly hate the over representation of Corn and nurgle. t sons was refreshing and i cant wait for slannesh
I'm sure there are chaos primaris marines. We just call them Chosen in Power Armor.
They are tougher and slightly deadlier marines, but with a preset equipment and no options.
Which is handy when you have a ruleset that isn't suited to having huge number of options for units...
Give it an edition for the current marine kits to sell through, and for stores to focus on selling people the Claytons Marines instead of regular Marines. Then you quietly remove the old style marines, and publish a list for the next edition that just has these guys with their reduced options as the standard marines.
End result - better scaled marines with rules better suited to the game without invalidating vast swathes of people's collections overnight.
The downside is that in the meantime, we have hordes of these guys on the table alongside the current Marine models, which will look slightly less stupid than Robert 'I-can't-believe-he's-not-54mm' Guilliman.
Taken on their own, though, they certainly are pretty.
Latro_ wrote: It will be interesting to see how they cost the new marines in pts because if they get it wrong they'll be terminators 'light'
the trade off is a buffed marine but without assault and heavy weapons. I'll gladly sacrifice the wounds for sternguard / assault squads.
On another note tau seem pretty slick given flamers seem really good this edition. Like AOS stormfiend good guess will have to wait till all the rules come out!
There are images of numarines with plasma rifles and speculation so far is that they are going to act a bit like HH marines. bolter dude unit, special weapons dude units, heavy weapons guys and so on.
it kinda makes sense since girlyman used to organize that way though he also kinda wrote the whole codex thing so i dunno.
forgot about that. well thats going to suck then. Maybe they'll be over priced point wise or something. Probably not tho. GW has to sell that new hottness.
I can't wait to fight new Marines with my Tallarn. It is going to make my games against them look like a desperate fight for survival against these giant superhumans, and for the marine player, make his guys look heroic smashing through the mass of small humans.
To me it will just make my games far more exciting, being the underdog average Joes who rely on weight of fire and properly executed troop movements/orders to take the day. The fluff for them might not be the best once they come out, but I am not too fazed by it. There has been enough positive things teased so far, that for the first time in years, I look forward to playing again.
Latro_ wrote: It will be interesting to see how they cost the new marines in pts because if they get it wrong they'll be terminators 'light'
the trade off is a buffed marine but without assault and heavy weapons. I'll gladly sacrifice the wounds for sternguard / assault squads.
On another note tau seem pretty slick given flamers seem really good this edition. Like AOS stormfiend good guess will have to wait till all the rules come out!
There are images of numarines with plasma rifles and speculation so far is that they are going to act a bit like HH marines. bolter dude unit, special weapons dude units, heavy weapons guys and so on.
it kinda makes sense since girlyman used to organize that way though he also kinda wrote the whole codex thing so i dunno.
forgot about that. well thats going to suck then. Maybe they'll be over priced point wise or something. Probably not tho. GW has to sell that new hottness.
I dont think so
it seems Reeses pieces has been all over this trying to legitimately make a balanced game. im sure gw will tweak things like power levels but im sure the tourny guys will have some objections to over power creeping (probably a little but not that bad)
Hmm. The point cost the Nu guys will be key (obivously). What is one wound, -1 Sv, and 6" of range worth? Should the lack of upgrades be factored in? If an 8th Ed Marine is 13pts and a NuMarine is 20pts, I might have trouble pulling the trigger, I definitely will if it's more like 22 or 23pts. Don't get me wrong, I'll be buying them anyway 'cause they look flash as hell, but I may find other ways to use 'em if the points are wonky.
Maybe it's just my personal dislike for squads with no upgraded weaponry (very much a legacy of previous editions, I'll admit). 6 tacticals, Las/Plas flavoured, In a Las/Plas Razorback anyone? C'mon, you know where I'm at in the way-back machine here...
Aesthetically, I have no issues mixing the model types at all. I think they look fine together. NuM (I like that acronym a lot...) could be used as Vets, or Sternguard types too. Anyway, cool models, nuff said.
I'm sure there are chaos primaris marines. We just call them Chosen in Power Armor.
Yup, just like Chaos AOS got ridiculously oversized models to match the big gulp sigmarines. I dont' see why GW wouldn't continue that trend unfortunately.
I'm sure there are chaos primaris marines. We just call them Chosen in Power Armor.
Yup, just like Chaos AOS got ridiculously oversized models to match the big gulp sigmarines. I dont' see why GW wouldn't continue that trend unfortunately.
Dunno about you guys but i like it.
i like that they are increasing in size. they look pretty bad ass. but only if they hurry up and fix more out dated stuff.. cough hamfisted cadians cough cough.
i honestly like these bigger things next to things like eldar and dark eldar models.
Hollow wrote: Or they listened to what people were asking for in regards to the articles and have started to incorporate more info?
They mention in the FAQs how do new marines effect us.
I play chaos where are my new marines.
They responded with don't worry did you see the new death guard trailer, there are a lot new super monsters on their way to you chaos has not been idle.
So get ready for Saturday morning cartoon villains.
So you don't like the new Deathguard?
not everyone likes death guard heck i honestly hate the over representation of Corn and nurgle. t sons was refreshing and i cant wait for slannesh
I was thinking of getting a DG Army for several months using FW accessories and was excited about the new models but am a bit put off by all the grinning going on. Are Nurgle followers that jolly?
I'm sure there are chaos primaris marines. We just call them Chosen in Power Armor.
Yup, just like Chaos AOS got ridiculously oversized models to match the big gulp sigmarines. I dont' see why GW wouldn't continue that trend unfortunately.
Dunno about you guys but i like it.
i like that they are increasing in size. they look pretty bad ass. but only if they hurry up and fix more out dated stuff.. cough hamfisted cadians cough cough.
i honestly like these bigger things next to things like eldar and dark eldar models.
I like the models but I'm a fan of truescaling and have a bunch of threads here on dakka where I did it. I'm not a fan of the fluff though as they should have just made them the new kit and kept the fluff intact. Nor am I a fan of the scale model arms race that will inevitably ensue as everything gets bigger just like in AOS.
Oh just re-read the part about the Primaris being created for other chapters. So we are also getting completely new chapters?! Wonder if they will have any genetic flaws.....
Liking that some chapters are not so welcoming of them and that some worry how the Primaris will handle genetic flaws such as the Red Thirst and what about a super super giant Wulfen?!
Took away one of my dislikes about these guys. I thought they were just gonna be of Guilliman's genes and given to other chapters, rather than them being of their own Primarch. Nice to know Salamander Primaris will be from Vul.
unmercifulconker wrote: Oh just re-read the part about the Primaris being created for other chapters. So we are also getting completely new chapters?! Wonder if they will have any genetic flaws.....
Liking that some chapters are not so welcoming of them and that some worry how the Primaris will handle genetic flaws such as the Red Thirst and what about a super super giant Wulfen?!
Took away one of my dislikes about these guys. I thought they were just gonna be of Guilliman's genes and given to other chapters, rather than them being of their own Primarch. Nice to know Salamander Primaris will be from Vul.
its probably along the lines of additional gene transplants from rowboat into existing marines that give them a minor boost for little cost. but for some reason that armor mark only works on boosted marines or something. so its possible other chapters will retain their normal traits (chapter tactics skin color and stuff)
My thoughts on the Numarine & Tau articles without having read any other posts:
Numarines: They're regular Marines with an A/W buff, and slightly better guns. Oh, and their pauldrons aren't so wacky looking in terms of scale. Aside from that, they're Space Marines. GW's lack of originality in that model line is honestly painful. For the number of kits they've released, SM must be the least diverse model line I've seen. And that's coming from a Guard player where all non-Russ vehicles have an identical sprue.
Tau: I will safely conclude that if 2/3 units they mention can fall back from combat and still shoot, it will be the case for many other units ($10 says Riptides will have a similar or identical rule). That was one of the only things assault armies had on Tau: stopping them from shooting if you could survive rounds of shooting and overwatch. And with the lack of any mentioned nerfs against a decidedly very strong army, I have grown quite concerned about the game's balance very suddenly; even the Eldar article didn't have me as worried.
I really like these new marines, they have some really nice dynamics proportions and have stylistic cues that i quite appreciate. Like the gorget and the mk3 style lower leg armor.
I'm a little worried about the fluff gymnastics required for them to make sense though! GW has spent years telling us that the imperium is technologically regressive and highly suspicious of anything new.
Not too sure that the old guys are really going to be left to dry, they represent alot of dollars invested in the molds and most of them should be good for a fair few years. At the very least we have many years to go before they truly disappear.
That being said, the foil hat wearing part of me can't help but think that this all a Machiavellian plot to make all chapters really believe Rob is their spiritual liege ;p
gnome_idea_what wrote: IIRC Tau sniper drones used to have a spotter attached to the unit, but the new unit datasheet is just drones. Any idea on what happens to them now?
I believe that GW's planning on using the spotter as an alternate Cadre Fireblade.
Form the article - "Lastly, I want to talk about Sniper Drones. When paired with the T’au HQ’s such as the Cadre Fireblade(...)"
Makes sense, considering the guy was already BS5 and rocking a sidearm and a markerlight.
gnome_idea_what wrote: IIRC Tau sniper drones used to have a spotter attached to the unit, but the new unit datasheet is just drones. Any idea on what happens to them now?
I believe that GW's planning on using the spotter as an alternate Cadre Fireblade.
Form the article - "Lastly, I want to talk about Sniper Drones. When paired with the T’au HQ’s such as the Cadre Fireblade(...)"
Makes sense, considering the guy was already BS5 and rocking a sidearm and a markerlight.
Or he's a unique cheapo drone controller character.
gnome_idea_what wrote: IIRC Tau sniper drones used to have a spotter attached to the unit, but the new unit datasheet is just drones. Any idea on what happens to them now?
I believe that GW's planning on using the spotter as an alternate Cadre Fireblade.
Form the article - "Lastly, I want to talk about Sniper Drones. When paired with the T’au HQ’s such as the Cadre Fireblade(...)"
Makes sense, considering the guy was already BS5 and rocking a sidearm and a markerlight.
Or he's a unique cheapo drone controller character.
Im hoping its a cheap maker control character to throw around the army. bonus bubble for drones while also sending out a nice marker light for an effect.
Hollow wrote: YOU don't know the rules of the Pulse rifle. Stop mixing and matching what the current rules are with new information about an entirely new edition.
I guess the Pulse Rifle could be given a -1 rend or maybe Str 6? I doubt it though. In the lore the longshot pulse rifle was the same damage as a pulse rifle but longer range is all. So unless we see regular pulse rifles get a buff over it it's fairly safe to assume the stats are the same at Str 5. It would be like seeing normal marines bolter go to str 6 -2 kind of weird.
LMAO so you even acknowledge that the new rules better reflect the fluff, yet your somehow stunned they aren't better...
gnome_idea_what wrote: IIRC Tau sniper drones used to have a spotter attached to the unit, but the new unit datasheet is just drones. Any idea on what happens to them now?
I believe that GW's planning on using the spotter as an alternate Cadre Fireblade.
Form the article - "Lastly, I want to talk about Sniper Drones. When paired with the T’au HQ’s such as the Cadre Fireblade(...)"
Makes sense, considering the guy was already BS5 and rocking a sidearm and a markerlight.
Ehh.
I don't think the Firesight Marksman is intended to be an alternate Cadre Fireblade.
Again, the author of the article seemingly isn't that great at expressing himself. We got a throwaway comment awhile ago that let us know that Cadre Fireblades grant their abilities in a bubble now, seemingly instead of picking a single unit.
If it's anything like "First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire"(where it doubles the shooting value rather than just adds a single shot)? 4 shots at 24" per Drone is nothing to sneeze at.
Reese wrote: So Primaris Marines are just the profile Normal Marines should be? Still wanna see a true side by side shot though!
Interested to see how they expand the line. Would love to use them as normal marines, but gonna get mighty pricey.
What would we think, Sternguard price for 5? Vanguard if we are lucky? So who wants to split a whole bunch of starter boxes?
That's a good point. I'd expect GW to price them at sigmarine levels which when I looked 2 years ago were pretty pricey per fig. As for the side by side shot, there is one shot in the youtube video on GW's channel that has the numariens next to old 3rd-7th ed style plastics although it's shot at an angle.
Hollow wrote: YOU don't know the rules of the Pulse rifle. Stop mixing and matching what the current rules are with new information about an entirely new edition.
I guess the Pulse Rifle could be given a -1 rend or maybe Str 6? I doubt it though. In the lore the longshot pulse rifle was the same damage as a pulse rifle but longer range is all. So unless we see regular pulse rifles get a buff over it it's fairly safe to assume the stats are the same at Str 5. It would be like seeing normal marines bolter go to str 6 -2 kind of weird.
LMAO so you even acknowledge that the new rules better reflect the fluff, yet your somehow stunned they aren't better...
I never mentioned the fluff even once. I was offering proof and agreement with why I thought they would not have a -1 to rend is all. Someone kept saying they thought the pulse rifle would be -1 rend. That is all. Context friendo. I never argued that best represents their fluff.
gnome_idea_what wrote: IIRC Tau sniper drones used to have a spotter attached to the unit, but the new unit datasheet is just drones. Any idea on what happens to them now?
They become a support support unit like engineers to cannons in AoS.
Or just outright thrown away as he arguably made the unit worse by existing.
Plenty of answers there.
Could also be that they're going the route of the Vanguard-Raptors from Stormcast.
It's also struck me as strange that Longshot Pulse Rifles are available on the Fireblade but nowhere else. We could see a "Firesight Marksman" unit; something that is basically a Pathfinder variant boxed with 4 Sniper Drones coming down the pipe.
Reese wrote: So Primaris Marines are just the profile Normal Marines should be? Still wanna see a true side by side shot though!
Interested to see how they expand the line. Would love to use them as normal marines, but gonna get mighty pricey.
What would we think, Sternguard price for 5? Vanguard if we are lucky? So who wants to split a whole bunch of starter boxes?
That's a good point. I'd expect GW to price them at sigmarine levels which when I looked 2 years ago were pretty pricey per fig. As for the side by side shot, there is one shot in the youtube video on GW's channel that has the numariens next to old 3rd-7th ed style plastics although it's shot at an angle.
They reboxed the Liberators, Judicators, etc for Stormcast because the unit sizes can be larger than the starter set contents.
If the unit size is 5, with no way to expand it, then I would expect 5 for $40 or $50.
All of this PR work and upheaval amongst Space Marine players and it was only to essentially make 8E rules for Space Marines.
Honestly, every bit of info that comes out more and more sounds like somebody on the writing team went crazy pants after being asked to come up with a story reason for the new tactical squad kit and rules in 8E. Worse is that nobody stopped them lol.
Two seconds would have satisfied almost every Astartes fan.
"We have a new tactical squad set for our new edition of Warhammer 40k, look to the future as we update the entire model range."
KommissarKiln wrote: My thoughts on the Numarine & Tau articles without having read any other posts:
Numarines: They're regular Marines with an A/W buff, and slightly better guns. Oh, and their pauldrons aren't so wacky looking in terms of scale. Aside from that, they're Space Marines. GW's lack of originality in that model line is honestly painful. For the number of kits they've released, SM must be the least diverse model line I've seen. And that's coming from a Guard player where all non-Russ vehicles have an identical sprue.
Tau: I will safely conclude that if 2/3 units they mention can fall back from combat and still shoot, it will be the case for many other units ($10 says Riptides will have a similar or identical rule). That was one of the only things assault armies had on Tau: stopping them from shooting if you could survive rounds of shooting and overwatch. And with the lack of any mentioned nerfs against a decidedly very strong army, I have grown quite concerned about the game's balance very suddenly; even the Eldar article didn't have me as worried.
Overall, I found today pretty disappointing.
Keep in mind if the unit can't fly it probably can't fall back if it's surrounded.
That's a good point. I'd expect GW to price them at sigmarine levels which when I looked 2 years ago were pretty pricey per fig. As for the side by side shot, there is one shot in the youtube video on GW's channel that has the numariens next to old 3rd-7th ed style plastics although it's shot at an angle.
You may be happy to find out they reboxed all the Sigmarines into boxes of 10 and dropped the price by a bit over 10%.
gnome_idea_what wrote: IIRC Tau sniper drones used to have a spotter attached to the unit, but the new unit datasheet is just drones. Any idea on what happens to them now?
Those I think are the specialist versions. Like how Gun Drones had their own unit these might get their own as well. The spotter could be I status and give drones a buff. If any faction will be I heavy it will be Guard and Tau.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Strange to me that the Gullimarines would use the other primarchs geneseed still.
Obviously this was just to appease everyone and allow them to plug into existing forces, but from a fluff point of view in not buying it
Why wouldn't they be using all the different Geneseed? That makes more sense from a fluff perspective, do you think that certain chapters would accept marines of a different Primarch's stock? They would see themselves as dying out, rather than getting stronger.
Reese wrote: So Primaris Marines are just the profile Normal Marines should be? Still wanna see a true side by side shot though!
Interested to see how they expand the line. Would love to use them as normal marines, but gonna get mighty pricey.
What would we think, Sternguard price for 5? Vanguard if we are lucky? So who wants to split a whole bunch of starter boxes?
Yes, Primaris Marines are the profile that you personally think they should be based on nothing.
Old marines are following the rest of the Old stuff's update, IP AP5 is now AP-- etc.
Nice day to meet you too? Did you misunderstand my post? it was more of a tongue and cheek comment, so should I have added a smiley face?
But since you seem so interested in it, yes, that is my opinion. This is a forum to express that right? Since they are super soldiers, always seemed like marines should have two wounds. And since they were rebooting everything, was a chance to do it. (But with the advent of Primaris, I can understand why they did not)
And as someone who has lurked on this forum long enough, that really is not a lone opinion or "based on nothing."
They are tougher and slightly deadlier marines, but with a preset equipment and no options.
Which is handy when you have a ruleset that isn't suited to having huge number of options for units...
Don't get this part, these guys are coming out after 8th releases. Not in seventh where it takes half an hour to track down enough of the special rules to figure out what any gun more complex than a bolter does.
Reese wrote: So Primaris Marines are just the profile Normal Marines should be? Still wanna see a true side by side shot though!
Interested to see how they expand the line. Would love to use them as normal marines, but gonna get mighty pricey.
What would we think, Sternguard price for 5? Vanguard if we are lucky? So who wants to split a whole bunch of starter boxes?
Yes, Primaris Marines are the profile that you personally think they should be based on nothing.
Old marines are following the rest of the Old stuff's update, IP AP5 is now AP-- etc.
Nice day to meet you too? Did you misunderstand my post? it was more of a tongue and cheek comment, so should I have added a smiley face?
But since you seem so interested in it, yes, that is my opinion. This is a forum to express that right? Since they are super soldiers, always seemed like marines should have two wounds. And since they were rebooting everything, was a chance to do it. (But with the advent of Primaris, I can understand why they did not)
And as someone who has lurked on this forum long enough, that really is not a lone opinion or "based on nothing."
My apologies, re-reading my comment it did sound snarky, but I didn't mean for it to be so!
I get that space marines sell and they wanted something flashy for the new edition but they literally went
1. marines (deathwatch)
2. tsons
3. imperium characters (gathering storm)
4. eldar characters (gathering storm)
5. Custodes/SoS 6. More new marines
And then after that MORE chaos. So much goddam power armor. I'm surprised at how blind they are to model ranges being severely lacking. Even when asked about new aspect warrior kits the GW facebook page said "but you just got a new eldar god". ??????? I can't make an army out of a single Avatar. Its like they literally are baffled by the concept of people not wanting a sludge of space marine goo poured down their throats constantly.
gnome_idea_what wrote: IIRC Tau sniper drones used to have a spotter attached to the unit, but the new unit datasheet is just drones. Any idea on what happens to them now?
Those I think are the specialist versions. Like how Gun Drones had their own unit these might get their own as well. The spotter could be I status and give drones a buff. If any faction will be I heavy it will be Guard and Tau.
Sniper Drones currently have their own unit.
It's in Heavy Support.
It consisted of 3x Sniper Drones and a Firesight Marksman.
You can add 6 additional Drones and 2 additional Marksmen.
I don't expect him to retain the same name if he's split off, as it was the whole reason he was a "Marksman" there. The control bit he's crouched with is explicitly a combination of a Markerlight and the control module for the Sniper Drones.
The Primaris plasma guns/rifles look good. But If the special weapon squad is an alternate build of the bolter guys then how are GW going to pack the guns in the kit(not mention potential CC and heavy weapons)? If the recent DW set is anything to go by the Primaris Marines could come with a lot of options but still need multiple boxes to make certain builds.
10 weapons, each that can target different units? Aside from the number of weapons (which can probably be accounted for by making each of the shoulder missiles separate weapons and the TL support weapon two separate weapons), that's exactly how the Stormsurge played now (because it was a Gargantuan Creature).
Changing the doubled shooting to +1 BS is undeniably a nerf, but perhaps a reasonable one, so long as the penalty of anchoring isn't as bad as it is in 7th edition (where it could be tankshocked to death).
Its baseline BS has been confirmed as 4+ to hit, which is nice to know.
Its ability to shoot after retreating is extremely useful, but may merely be compensating for a lack of Stomp attacks.
Markerlights:
We don't know much about them, but from what we've seen, its a nerf for all models except native BS 5 models (+1 BS is better than rerolling 1's for BS 2, 3, and 4).
We don't know if that's the full extent of its ability to buff accuracy, but if it becomes something like "for the 2nd ML, reroll 1's and 2's, for the 3rd, reroll 1's, 2's, and 3's, etc." then lower native BS models end up benefiting less.
Don't know if they can still bypass/negate cover yet. I hope so.
Crisis Suits:
3 weapons is a boon and potentially a curse: While you have increased baseline firepower, the more limited nature of Markerlight boosting means effective firepower is probably reduced comparatively (since most Tau players weren't firing their expensive Crisis Suit special weapons with the baseline BS3 regardless). Even then, Crisis Suits become even more of a glass cannon than they were before - the cost of 3 weapons is almost certainly going to make each crisis suit more expensive (to get the same result - see above for accuracy-boosted effectiveness), and so each loss will be felt more forcefully.
Fly key word:
There is only a single thing that this article confirms Fly does, and that's oddly the one thing that people don't seem to think it grants. Let me quote the article itself:
Oh, and did I forget to mention they have the Fly keyword? This allows them to Fall Back from combat and still shoot at full effect.
The Fly keyword is the thing that grants Crisis Suits the ability to Fall back from Combat and still shoot at full effect. There is no other bespoke special rule granting that to Crisis Suits (unlike the Stormsurge, which gains that ability through the Walking Battleship bespoke rule), and there is no other benefit explicitly granted by the Fly keyword.
That said, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Fly keyword also grants the ability to ignore movement penalties/restrictions based on intervening terrain and models. It ain't confirmed, but it's extremely likely.
That means, by and by, that Ghostkeels, Riptides, Stealth Suits, and all Drones will also be able to fire after retreating from combat (as they will all almost certainly have the Fly keyword). Neat.
Sniper Drones:
They don't bring many surprises. Having a BS of 5+ is absolutely in line with their 7th edition profile of BS2 (with the unknown quantity being what nearby Characters with Drone Controllers will do - because its a complete unknown, it makes no sense to claim a nerf at this point).
The Longshot Pulse Rifle has changed in two significant ways. First, it is better against T3 and 4 (3+ to wound instead of 4+), and worse against T6+ (5+ or 6+ to wound instead of 4+). Probably roughly balanced, since most Characters (which are almost certainly going to be the preferred target for Snipers) will fall in the former category, rather than the latter. The second change, which doesn't appear to have been discussed yet, is that the Longshot lost the "AP 2 on 6's to wound" inherent to weapons with the Sniper rule. That IS a significant nerf, and has no benefit to balance it out. It also makes it significantly weaker in its preferred role of taking out hidden Characters.
I really hope the Kroot retain their Sniping capability and/or the Advanced Targeting System retains its Precision shooting capabilities, because I would be really miffed if Tau sniping was stuck behind such a highly expensive model with relatively weak firepower.
Jet Pack infantry:
Sniper Drones used to be Jet Pack infantry, with 6" movement and 2d6 assault moves. Now they have 8" movement. 8" movement seems nice, until you notice that there's nothing explicitly granting the 2d6 assault move they used to haveEither that's granted by the Fly keyword (there doesn't seem to be any suggestion that is the case, and would seems unlikely given that the Fly keyword will probably be shared by almost all jump/jump jet/flying models from 7th).
For that, we seem to have gotten Hit & Run with an auto-succeeding initiative check. Between the two, that strikes me as a nerf - not only are the jet pack infantry slower (8" is slower than the 13" average Sniper Drones used to have), but our suits/drones can no longer jump away after firing their weapons, leaving them more vulnerable to charging.
That may well be an appropriate balance change, but it should at least be acknowledged as a significant nerf.
For the Greater Good:
We know this replaces Supporting Fire. We don't know if the range is the same, and we don't know if it extends to ALL units or is more limited in how many extra units can shoot. Retaining it, in combination with the increased quantity of Overwatch availability, could still be balanced, or it could be overwhelmingly weak or horrifyingly strong.
There's a lot to be said for waiting and seeing here.
Overall, like every other goddamn tease we've seen since they've started, there's just not enough information presented to presume ALL IS FIRE AND BRIMSTONE FOR THE XENOS FILTH, nor that ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO T'AU. There's changes, and I look forward to seeing how they interact in the new edition. More and more, I see Kauyon tactics becoming not only as a potentially viable strategy, but more and more as an integral part of the T'au tactical arsenal.
Reese wrote: So Primaris Marines are just the profile Normal Marines should be? Still wanna see a true side by side shot though!
Interested to see how they expand the line. Would love to use them as normal marines, but gonna get mighty pricey.
What would we think, Sternguard price for 5? Vanguard if we are lucky? So who wants to split a whole bunch of starter boxes?
Yes, Primaris Marines are the profile that you personally think they should be based on nothing.
Old marines are following the rest of the Old stuff's update, IP AP5 is now AP-- etc.
Nice day to meet you too? Did you misunderstand my post? it was more of a tongue and cheek comment, so should I have added a smiley face?
But since you seem so interested in it, yes, that is my opinion. This is a forum to express that right? Since they are super soldiers, always seemed like marines should have two wounds. And since they were rebooting everything, was a chance to do it. (But with the advent of Primaris, I can understand why they did not)
And as someone who has lurked on this forum long enough, that really is not a lone opinion or "based on nothing."
My apologies, re-reading my comment it did sound snarky, but I didn't mean for it to be so!
Edit: Need more coffee before I start posting :(
No worries Rippy! Thought something was amiss based on what I've seen from following your posts in my lurking.
I know it is early over there. And thanks for updating the thread for everyone!
There is only a single thing that this article confirms Fly does, and that's oddly the one thing that people don't seem to think it grants. Let me quote the article itself:
Oh, and did I forget to mention they have the Fly keyword? This allows them to Fall Back from combat and still shoot at full effect.
The Fly keyword is the thing that grants Crisis Suits the ability to Fall back from Combat and still shoot at full effect. There is no other bespoke special rule granting that to Crisis Suits (unlike the Stormsurge, which gains that ability through the Walking Battleship bespoke rule), and there is no other benefit explicitly granted by the Fly keyword.
That said, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Fly keyword also grants the ability to ignore movement penalties/restrictions based on intervening terrain and models. It ain't confirmed, but it's extremely likely.
That means, by and by, that Ghostkeels, Riptides, Stealth Suits, and all Drones will also be able to fire after retreating from combat (as they will all almost certainly have the Fly keyword). Neat.
Which is, again, why I think that it's another case of this particular author not being great at expressing themselves.
There is literally no mention of Sniper Drones being able to do the same thing. Yet apparently it magically does this for Crisis Suits?
No. Not buying it. It's like saying that because a Gryph-Hound in Age of Sigmar has Keyword: Stormcast Eternal, they can make quite a few attacks on the charge during a Combat and then leave it.
Gryph-Hounds could be affected by things that benefit Stormcast Eternals, like maybe a Command Ability granting additional attacks or whatever, but they leave the Combat after making their attacks thanks to their "Darting Strikes" special rule.
There is only a single thing that this article confirms Fly does, and that's oddly the one thing that people don't seem to think it grants. Let me quote the article itself:
Oh, and did I forget to mention they have the Fly keyword? This allows them to Fall Back from combat and still shoot at full effect.
The Fly keyword is the thing that grants Crisis Suits the ability to Fall back from Combat and still shoot at full effect. There is no other bespoke special rule granting that to Crisis Suits (unlike the Stormsurge, which gains that ability through the Walking Battleship bespoke rule), and there is no other benefit explicitly granted by the Fly keyword.
That said, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Fly keyword also grants the ability to ignore movement penalties/restrictions based on intervening terrain and models. It ain't confirmed, but it's extremely likely.
That means, by and by, that Ghostkeels, Riptides, Stealth Suits, and all Drones will also be able to fire after retreating from combat (as they will all almost certainly have the Fly keyword). Neat.
Which is, again, why I think that it's another case of this particular author not being great at expressing themselves.
There is literally no mention of Sniper Drones being able to do the same thing. Yet apparently it magically does this for Crisis Suits?
No. Not buying it. It's like saying that because a Gryph-Hound in Age of Sigmar has Keyword: Stormcast Eternal, they can make quite a few attacks on the charge during a Combat and then leave it.
Gryph-Hounds could be affected by things that benefit Stormcast Eternals, like maybe a Command Ability granting additional attacks or whatever, but they leave the Combat after making their attacks thanks to their "Darting Strikes" special rule.
Or it could anyway and he didn't mention it for one of a myriad other reasons?
Even then, Crisis Suits become even more of a glass cannon than they were before - the cost of 3 weapons is almost certainly going to make each crisis suit more expensive (to get the same result - see above for accuracy-boosted effectiveness), and so each loss will be felt more forcefully.
Don't forget that AP3 won't be ignoring your armor save anymore. I'll even wager Instant Death is gone and that crisis suits will be 3 or 4 wounds.
Even then, Crisis Suits become even more of a glass cannon than they were before - the cost of 3 weapons is almost certainly going to make each crisis suit more expensive (to get the same result - see above for accuracy-boosted effectiveness), and so each loss will be felt more forcefully.
Don't forget that AP3 won't be ignoring your armor save anymore. I'll even wager Instant Death is gone and that crisis suits will be 3 or 4 wounds.
Yeah, but balanced by the fact that a lot more stuff does multiple wounds. Still a good point though.
Even then, Crisis Suits become even more of a glass cannon than they were before - the cost of 3 weapons is almost certainly going to make each crisis suit more expensive (to get the same result - see above for accuracy-boosted effectiveness), and so each loss will be felt more forcefully.
Don't forget that AP3 won't be ignoring your armor save anymore.
No, but AP 4 will be reducing the Crisis Suit's armor save and (if the Tau Missile Pod is anything to go by) some previously 1-wound-causing weapons will be capable of inflicting multiple wounds.
It's too early to cry foul or fair, but it seems facially reasonable to presume 3 weapon crisis suits will be more expensive and (against some weaponry) no more durable to roughly equal shooting.
Edit: also, the presumption that the explicit wording that Fly grants the ability to fall back and shoot is just the article writer expressing himself poorly is hilarious.
Even then, Crisis Suits become even more of a glass cannon than they were before - the cost of 3 weapons is almost certainly going to make each crisis suit more expensive (to get the same result - see above for accuracy-boosted effectiveness), and so each loss will be felt more forcefully.
Don't forget that AP3 won't be ignoring your armor save anymore. I'll even wager Instant Death is gone and that crisis suits will be 3 or 4 wounds.
Yeah, but balanced by the fact that a lot more stuff does multiple wounds. Still a good point though.
Mostly various flavors of special and heavy weapons over generic troop weapons which i think is cool.
i dont know if this is going to push heavy msu with lots of special weapons or not but its going to be interesting to see. so far it seems like the nothing will really die unless specifically targeted by specific weapons edition.
10 weapons, each that can target different units? Aside from the number of weapons (which can probably be accounted for by making each of the shoulder missiles separate weapons and the TL support weapon two separate weapons), that's exactly how the Stormsurge played now (because it was a Gargantuan Creature).
Changing the doubled shooting to +1 BS is undeniably a nerf, but perhaps a reasonable one, so long as the penalty of anchoring isn't as bad as it is in 7th edition (where it could be tankshocked to death).
Its baseline BS has been confirmed as 4+ to hit, which is nice to know.
Its ability to shoot after retreating is extremely useful, but may merely be compensating for a lack of Stomp attacks.
Markerlights:
We don't know much about them, but from what we've seen, its a nerf for all models except native BS 5 models (+1 BS is better than rerolling 1's for BS 2, 3, and 4).
We don't know if that's the full extent of its ability to buff accuracy, but if it becomes something like "for the 2nd ML, reroll 1's and 2's, for the 3rd, reroll 1's, 2's, and 3's, etc." then lower native BS models end up benefiting less.
Don't know if they can still bypass/negate cover yet. I hope so.
Crisis Suits:
3 weapons is a boon and potentially a curse: While you have increased baseline firepower, the more limited nature of Markerlight boosting means effective firepower is probably reduced comparatively (since most Tau players weren't firing their expensive Crisis Suit special weapons with the baseline BS3 regardless). Even then, Crisis Suits become even more of a glass cannon than they were before - the cost of 3 weapons is almost certainly going to make each crisis suit more expensive (to get the same result - see above for accuracy-boosted effectiveness), and so each loss will be felt more forcefully.
Fly key word:
There is only a single thing that this article confirms Fly does, and that's oddly the one thing that people don't seem to think it grants. Let me quote the article itself:
Oh, and did I forget to mention they have the Fly keyword? This allows them to Fall Back from combat and still shoot at full effect.
The Fly keyword is the thing that grants Crisis Suits the ability to Fall back from Combat and still shoot at full effect. There is no other bespoke special rule granting that to Crisis Suits (unlike the Stormsurge, which gains that ability through the Walking Battleship bespoke rule), and there is no other benefit explicitly granted by the Fly keyword.
That said, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Fly keyword also grants the ability to ignore movement penalties/restrictions based on intervening terrain and models. It ain't confirmed, but it's extremely likely.
That means, by and by, that Ghostkeels, Riptides, Stealth Suits, and all Drones will also be able to fire after retreating from combat (as they will all almost certainly have the Fly keyword). Neat.
Sniper Drones:
They don't bring many surprises. Having a BS of 5+ is absolutely in line with their 7th edition profile of BS2 (with the unknown quantity being what nearby Characters with Drone Controllers will do - because its a complete unknown, it makes no sense to claim a nerf at this point).
The Longshot Pulse Rifle has changed in two significant ways. First, it is better against T3 and 4 (3+ to wound instead of 4+), and worse against T6+ (5+ or 6+ to wound instead of 4+). Probably roughly balanced, since most Characters (which are almost certainly going to be the preferred target for Snipers) will fall in the former category, rather than the latter. The second change, which doesn't appear to have been discussed yet, is that the Longshot lost the "AP 2 on 6's to wound" inherent to weapons with the Sniper rule. That IS a significant nerf, and has no benefit to balance it out. It also makes it significantly weaker in its preferred role of taking out hidden Characters.
I really hope the Kroot retain their Sniping capability and/or the Advanced Targeting System retains its Precision shooting capabilities, because I would be really miffed if Tau sniping was stuck behind such a highly expensive model with relatively weak firepower.
Jet Pack infantry:
Sniper Drones used to be Jet Pack infantry, with 6" movement and 2d6 assault moves. Now they have 8" movement. 8" movement seems nice, until you notice that there's nothing explicitly granting the 2d6 assault move they used to haveEither that's granted by the Fly keyword (there doesn't seem to be any suggestion that is the case, and would seems unlikely given that the Fly keyword will probably be shared by almost all jump/jump jet/flying models from 7th).
For that, we seem to have gotten Hit & Run with an auto-succeeding initiative check. Between the two, that strikes me as a nerf - not only are the jet pack infantry slower (8" is slower than the 13" average Sniper Drones used to have), but our suits/drones can no longer jump away after firing their weapons, leaving them more vulnerable to charging.
That may well be an appropriate balance change, but it should at least be acknowledged as a significant nerf.
For the Greater Good:
We know this replaces Supporting Fire. We don't know if the range is the same, and we don't know if it extends to ALL units or is more limited in how many extra units can shoot. Retaining it, in combination with the increased quantity of Overwatch availability, could still be balanced, or it could be overwhelmingly weak or horrifyingly strong.
There's a lot to be said for waiting and seeing here.
Overall, like every other goddamn tease we've seen since they've started, there's just not enough information presented to presume ALL IS FIRE AND BRIMSTONE FOR THE XENOS FILTH, nor that ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO T'AU. There's changes, and I look forward to seeing how they interact in the new edition. More and more, I see Kauyon tactics becoming not only as a potentially viable strategy, but more and more as an integral part of the T'au tactical arsenal.
Nifty.
If you read the article carefully it also says reroll 1's to shoot at a unit with one marker light on it. It never says you must spend marker light hits as currency like you do now which if it holds true would be a massive perk. Suddenly you mark a unit once and the whole army rerolls 1's vs it, yea that could be nuts. I also agree, multiple ML hits could be beneficial, I am guessing 2 hits is reroll misses and that it, no proof just a feeling. When you factor in split fire everywhere ML become borderline annoying if you don't clean up the system. If you spend hits like now, eek what a mess. You will have single guys split ML here, then single weapons spending it there etc etc... No thanks, just make them MUCH more expensive and rare and make a ML hit effect anything shooting at the marked target.
There is only a single thing that this article confirms Fly does, and that's oddly the one thing that people don't seem to think it grants. Let me quote the article itself:
Oh, and did I forget to mention they have the Fly keyword? This allows them to Fall Back from combat and still shoot at full effect.
The Fly keyword is the thing that grants Crisis Suits the ability to Fall back from Combat and still shoot at full effect. There is no other bespoke special rule granting that to Crisis Suits (unlike the Stormsurge, which gains that ability through the Walking Battleship bespoke rule), and there is no other benefit explicitly granted by the Fly keyword.
That said, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Fly keyword also grants the ability to ignore movement penalties/restrictions based on intervening terrain and models. It ain't confirmed, but it's extremely likely.
That means, by and by, that Ghostkeels, Riptides, Stealth Suits, and all Drones will also be able to fire after retreating from combat (as they will all almost certainly have the Fly keyword). Neat.
Which is, again, why I think that it's another case of this particular author not being great at expressing themselves.
There is literally no mention of Sniper Drones being able to do the same thing. Yet apparently it magically does this for Crisis Suits?
No. Not buying it. It's like saying that because a Gryph-Hound in Age of Sigmar has Keyword: Stormcast Eternal, they can make quite a few attacks on the charge during a Combat and then leave it.
Gryph-Hounds could be affected by things that benefit Stormcast Eternals, like maybe a Command Ability granting additional attacks or whatever, but they leave the Combat after making their attacks thanks to their "Darting Strikes" special rule.
Or it could anyway and he didn't mention it for one of a myriad other reasons?
Hmmmm, it could be that he is AMAZING, at expressing without revealing. I used to work in the hush hush rooms in the Navy and you can tell that the author is actually really good as well as the 2-4 people that go over the dang thing to proof read are Great at this...
Edit: also, the presumption that the explicit wording that Fly grants the ability to fall back and shoot is just the article writer expressing himself poorly is hilarious.
Considering that when he did the CSM article people were saying that it was poorly written/expressed...it's not that bad of a presumption.
Also, again, "Fly" actually has something for us to compare it to with AoS.
10 weapons, each that can target different units? Aside from the number of weapons (which can probably be accounted for by making each of the shoulder missiles separate weapons and the TL support weapon two separate weapons), that's exactly how the Stormsurge played now (because it was a Gargantuan Creature).
Changing the doubled shooting to +1 BS is undeniably a nerf, but perhaps a reasonable one, so long as the penalty of anchoring isn't as bad as it is in 7th edition (where it could be tankshocked to death).
Its baseline BS has been confirmed as 4+ to hit, which is nice to know.
Its ability to shoot after retreating is extremely useful, but may merely be compensating for a lack of Stomp attacks.
Markerlights:
We don't know much about them, but from what we've seen, its a nerf for all models except native BS 5 models (+1 BS is better than rerolling 1's for BS 2, 3, and 4).
We don't know if that's the full extent of its ability to buff accuracy, but if it becomes something like "for the 2nd ML, reroll 1's and 2's, for the 3rd, reroll 1's, 2's, and 3's, etc." then lower native BS models end up benefiting less.
Don't know if they can still bypass/negate cover yet. I hope so.
Crisis Suits:
3 weapons is a boon and potentially a curse: While you have increased baseline firepower, the more limited nature of Markerlight boosting means effective firepower is probably reduced comparatively (since most Tau players weren't firing their expensive Crisis Suit special weapons with the baseline BS3 regardless). Even then, Crisis Suits become even more of a glass cannon than they were before - the cost of 3 weapons is almost certainly going to make each crisis suit more expensive (to get the same result - see above for accuracy-boosted effectiveness), and so each loss will be felt more forcefully.
Fly key word:
There is only a single thing that this article confirms Fly does, and that's oddly the one thing that people don't seem to think it grants. Let me quote the article itself:
Oh, and did I forget to mention they have the Fly keyword? This allows them to Fall Back from combat and still shoot at full effect.
The Fly keyword is the thing that grants Crisis Suits the ability to Fall back from Combat and still shoot at full effect. There is no other bespoke special rule granting that to Crisis Suits (unlike the Stormsurge, which gains that ability through the Walking Battleship bespoke rule), and there is no other benefit explicitly granted by the Fly keyword.
That said, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Fly keyword also grants the ability to ignore movement penalties/restrictions based on intervening terrain and models. It ain't confirmed, but it's extremely likely.
That means, by and by, that Ghostkeels, Riptides, Stealth Suits, and all Drones will also be able to fire after retreating from combat (as they will all almost certainly have the Fly keyword). Neat.
Sniper Drones:
They don't bring many surprises. Having a BS of 5+ is absolutely in line with their 7th edition profile of BS2 (with the unknown quantity being what nearby Characters with Drone Controllers will do - because its a complete unknown, it makes no sense to claim a nerf at this point).
The Longshot Pulse Rifle has changed in two significant ways. First, it is better against T3 and 4 (3+ to wound instead of 4+), and worse against T6+ (5+ or 6+ to wound instead of 4+). Probably roughly balanced, since most Characters (which are almost certainly going to be the preferred target for Snipers) will fall in the former category, rather than the latter. The second change, which doesn't appear to have been discussed yet, is that the Longshot lost the "AP 2 on 6's to wound" inherent to weapons with the Sniper rule. That IS a significant nerf, and has no benefit to balance it out. It also makes it significantly weaker in its preferred role of taking out hidden Characters.
I really hope the Kroot retain their Sniping capability and/or the Advanced Targeting System retains its Precision shooting capabilities, because I would be really miffed if Tau sniping was stuck behind such a highly expensive model with relatively weak firepower.
Jet Pack infantry:
Sniper Drones used to be Jet Pack infantry, with 6" movement and 2d6 assault moves. Now they have 8" movement. 8" movement seems nice, until you notice that there's nothing explicitly granting the 2d6 assault move they used to haveEither that's granted by the Fly keyword (there doesn't seem to be any suggestion that is the case, and would seems unlikely given that the Fly keyword will probably be shared by almost all jump/jump jet/flying models from 7th).
For that, we seem to have gotten Hit & Run with an auto-succeeding initiative check. Between the two, that strikes me as a nerf - not only are the jet pack infantry slower (8" is slower than the 13" average Sniper Drones used to have), but our suits/drones can no longer jump away after firing their weapons, leaving them more vulnerable to charging.
That may well be an appropriate balance change, but it should at least be acknowledged as a significant nerf.
For the Greater Good:
We know this replaces Supporting Fire. We don't know if the range is the same, and we don't know if it extends to ALL units or is more limited in how many extra units can shoot. Retaining it, in combination with the increased quantity of Overwatch availability, could still be balanced, or it could be overwhelmingly weak or horrifyingly strong.
There's a lot to be said for waiting and seeing here.
Overall, like every other goddamn tease we've seen since they've started, there's just not enough information presented to presume ALL IS FIRE AND BRIMSTONE FOR THE XENOS FILTH, nor that ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO T'AU. There's changes, and I look forward to seeing how they interact in the new edition. More and more, I see Kauyon tactics becoming not only as a potentially viable strategy, but more and more as an integral part of the T'au tactical arsenal.
Nifty.
If you read the article carefully it also says reroll 1's to shoot at a unit with one marker light on it. It never says you must spend marker light hits as currency like you do now which if it holds true would be a massive perk. Suddenly you mark a unit once and the whole army rerolls 1's vs it, yea that could be nuts. I also agree, multiple ML hits could be beneficial, I am guessing 2 hits is reroll misses and that it, no proof just a feeling. When you factor in split fire everywhere ML become borderline annoying if you don't clean up the system. If you spend hits like now, eek what a mess. You will have single guys split ML here, then single weapons spending it there etc etc... No thanks, just make them MUCH more expensive and rare and make a ML hit effect anything shooting at the marked target.
Excellent point, and good catch.
limiting the per-unit ML effectiveness by making the effect an army-wide bonus would be a good way to balance Markerlights out, and appears to be how they've done so.
Edit: also, the presumption that the explicit wording that Fly grants the ability to fall back and shoot is just the article writer expressing himself poorly is hilarious.
Considering that when he did the CSM article people were saying that it was poorly written/expressed...it's not that bad of a presumption.
Also, again, "Fly" actually has something for us to compare it to with AoS.
Does AoS have a similar "retreat from combat" mechanic?
If not, what could we possibly learn from AoS regarding that particular rules interaction?
But no, for sure, the explicit statement is just poor wording. Sure. We won't know until we see the rules.
GoatboyBeta wrote: The Primaris plasma guns/rifles look good. But If the special weapon squad is an alternate build of the bolter guys then how are GW going to pack the guns in the kit(not mention potential CC and heavy weapons)? If the recent DW set is anything to go by the Primaris Marines could come with a lot of options but still need multiple boxes to make certain builds.
Here's what I suspect..
The basic "tactical" troops that don't come with special weapons.. but come in 5 man squads.. I think those are laid out that way and special weapon squads are laid out.. likely in 5 man squads.. All of that is to set up tooling for a future 10 man box when these guys take over as the new standard. That way you just have to swap out the second frame for special weapons or heavy weapons for future kit.. or even have the second frame feature assault options. While it could lead to quite a bit of stale model syndrome, it is perfectly logical from a logistics standpoint.
10 weapons, each that can target different units? Aside from the number of weapons (which can probably be accounted for by making each of the shoulder missiles separate weapons and the TL support weapon two separate weapons), that's exactly how the Stormsurge played now (because it was a Gargantuan Creature).
Changing the doubled shooting to +1 BS is undeniably a nerf, but perhaps a reasonable one, so long as the penalty of anchoring isn't as bad as it is in 7th edition (where it could be tankshocked to death).
Its baseline BS has been confirmed as 4+ to hit, which is nice to know.
Its ability to shoot after retreating is extremely useful, but may merely be compensating for a lack of Stomp attacks.
Markerlights:
We don't know much about them, but from what we've seen, its a nerf for all models except native BS 5 models (+1 BS is better than rerolling 1's for BS 2, 3, and 4).
We don't know if that's the full extent of its ability to buff accuracy, but if it becomes something like "for the 2nd ML, reroll 1's and 2's, for the 3rd, reroll 1's, 2's, and 3's, etc." then lower native BS models end up benefiting less.
Don't know if they can still bypass/negate cover yet. I hope so.
Crisis Suits:
3 weapons is a boon and potentially a curse: While you have increased baseline firepower, the more limited nature of Markerlight boosting means effective firepower is probably reduced comparatively (since most Tau players weren't firing their expensive Crisis Suit special weapons with the baseline BS3 regardless). Even then, Crisis Suits become even more of a glass cannon than they were before - the cost of 3 weapons is almost certainly going to make each crisis suit more expensive (to get the same result - see above for accuracy-boosted effectiveness), and so each loss will be felt more forcefully.
Fly key word:
There is only a single thing that this article confirms Fly does, and that's oddly the one thing that people don't seem to think it grants. Let me quote the article itself:
Oh, and did I forget to mention they have the Fly keyword? This allows them to Fall Back from combat and still shoot at full effect.
The Fly keyword is the thing that grants Crisis Suits the ability to Fall back from Combat and still shoot at full effect. There is no other bespoke special rule granting that to Crisis Suits (unlike the Stormsurge, which gains that ability through the Walking Battleship bespoke rule), and there is no other benefit explicitly granted by the Fly keyword.
That said, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Fly keyword also grants the ability to ignore movement penalties/restrictions based on intervening terrain and models. It ain't confirmed, but it's extremely likely.
That means, by and by, that Ghostkeels, Riptides, Stealth Suits, and all Drones will also be able to fire after retreating from combat (as they will all almost certainly have the Fly keyword). Neat.
Sniper Drones:
They don't bring many surprises. Having a BS of 5+ is absolutely in line with their 7th edition profile of BS2 (with the unknown quantity being what nearby Characters with Drone Controllers will do - because its a complete unknown, it makes no sense to claim a nerf at this point).
The Longshot Pulse Rifle has changed in two significant ways. First, it is better against T3 and 4 (3+ to wound instead of 4+), and worse against T6+ (5+ or 6+ to wound instead of 4+). Probably roughly balanced, since most Characters (which are almost certainly going to be the preferred target for Snipers) will fall in the former category, rather than the latter. The second change, which doesn't appear to have been discussed yet, is that the Longshot lost the "AP 2 on 6's to wound" inherent to weapons with the Sniper rule. That IS a significant nerf, and has no benefit to balance it out. It also makes it significantly weaker in its preferred role of taking out hidden Characters.
I really hope the Kroot retain their Sniping capability and/or the Advanced Targeting System retains its Precision shooting capabilities, because I would be really miffed if Tau sniping was stuck behind such a highly expensive model with relatively weak firepower.
Jet Pack infantry:
Sniper Drones used to be Jet Pack infantry, with 6" movement and 2d6 assault moves. Now they have 8" movement. 8" movement seems nice, until you notice that there's nothing explicitly granting the 2d6 assault move they used to haveEither that's granted by the Fly keyword (there doesn't seem to be any suggestion that is the case, and would seems unlikely given that the Fly keyword will probably be shared by almost all jump/jump jet/flying models from 7th).
For that, we seem to have gotten Hit & Run with an auto-succeeding initiative check. Between the two, that strikes me as a nerf - not only are the jet pack infantry slower (8" is slower than the 13" average Sniper Drones used to have), but our suits/drones can no longer jump away after firing their weapons, leaving them more vulnerable to charging.
That may well be an appropriate balance change, but it should at least be acknowledged as a significant nerf.
For the Greater Good:
We know this replaces Supporting Fire. We don't know if the range is the same, and we don't know if it extends to ALL units or is more limited in how many extra units can shoot. Retaining it, in combination with the increased quantity of Overwatch availability, could still be balanced, or it could be overwhelmingly weak or horrifyingly strong.
There's a lot to be said for waiting and seeing here.
Overall, like every other goddamn tease we've seen since they've started, there's just not enough information presented to presume ALL IS FIRE AND BRIMSTONE FOR THE XENOS FILTH, nor that ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO T'AU. There's changes, and I look forward to seeing how they interact in the new edition. More and more, I see Kauyon tactics becoming not only as a potentially viable strategy, but more and more as an integral part of the T'au tactical arsenal.
Nifty.
If you read the article carefully it also says reroll 1's to shoot at a unit with one marker light on it. It never says you must spend marker light hits as currency like you do now which if it holds true would be a massive perk. Suddenly you mark a unit once and the whole army rerolls 1's vs it, yea that could be nuts. I also agree, multiple ML hits could be beneficial, I am guessing 2 hits is reroll misses and that it, no proof just a feeling. When you factor in split fire everywhere ML become borderline annoying if you don't clean up the system. If you spend hits like now, eek what a mess. You will have single guys split ML here, then single weapons spending it there etc etc... No thanks, just make them MUCH more expensive and rare and make a ML hit effect anything shooting at the marked target.
Could mean that there are 2 types of Marker Light uses. Passive rerolls (Or something like that... Maybe "For the Greater Good" let's you Supporting Fire a unit with marker lights on it based on the number of lights on it?)
Then we could have Active uses such as lowering Cover
There's a discussion of the Damocles Warzone in one of the leaks, which you should be able to find on the first page.
The Faction Focus we're discussing now is also linked on the first page, but is purely discussing game mechanics and playstyles, not fluff.
Check the Warzone Damocles on warhammer community. Also I want to put in a reminder here since this thread is moving like 10 million miles a second. Lady Atia has chimed in on her blog saying the Tau are most likely getting Auxiliaries release from the nature of her hint. Other rumor people say no xenos till next year. So likely next year will be Tau update and probably a big one. Proof is war of sigmar blog warzone damocles comments.
Edit: also, the presumption that the explicit wording that Fly grants the ability to fall back and shoot is just the article writer expressing himself poorly is hilarious.
Considering that when he did the CSM article people were saying that it was poorly written/expressed...it's not that bad of a presumption.
Also, again, "Fly" actually has something for us to compare it to with AoS.
Does AoS have a similar "retreat from combat" mechanic?
If not, what could we possibly learn from AoS regarding that particular rules interaction?
But no, for sure, the explicit statement is just poor wording. Sure. We won't know until we see the rules.
Flying in AoS is a classification Keyword, and doesn't confer anything besides being able to move over models instead of around when moving/piling in for attacks.
Here though, it's clearly Fly.
And as I've said before, Skinks have the 'Wary Fighter' ability in AoS, which allows them to move up to their full movement to leave combat in the Fight Phase, when it is their turn to strike. In yours or your opponents Fight phase.
They can then shoot in the subsequent shooting phase for you as they did not 'Reatreat'/'Fall Back'.
Honest to God, I cannot fathom whatsoever why GW thought Tau being bad in close combat was a problem that needed fixing. They mow through charging units. They lose a model or two in close combat, then they waltz right back out of combat and don't even have the ONE drawback that actually matters to them for doing a Fall Back. What the hell?
Seriously, GW keeps saying close combat is going to be brutal. In what way? Since the Fight article they have literally shown absolutely nothing whatsoever that lends credence to that statement. They really need to put up or shut up.
The Primaris plasma guns/rifles look good. But If the special weapon squad is an alternate build of the bolter guys then how are GW going to pack the guns in the kit(not mention potential CC and heavy weapons)? If the recent DW set is anything to go by the Primaris Marines could come with a lot of options but still need multiple boxes to make certain builds.
The Plasma Gun in the video is a Standard Tac Marine. That last image is 10 Primaris Marines with a Tac squad on each side of it. Pause it, look at the armor and size of the miniatures. From :36 to :38 on the video. The Primaris Marines look to be about a head taller. The only option I see they have is their leader has a power sword.
The Primaris plasma guns/rifles look good. But If the special weapon squad is an alternate build of the bolter guys then how are GW going to pack the guns in the kit(not mention potential CC and heavy weapons)? If the recent DW set is anything to go by the Primaris Marines could come with a lot of options but still need multiple boxes to make certain builds.
The Plasma Gun in the video is a Standard Tac Marine. That last image is 10 Primaris Marines with a Tac squad on each side of it. Pause it, look at the armor and size of the miniatures. From :36 to :38 on the video. The Primaris Marines look to be about a head taller. The only option I see they have is their leader has a power sword.
they look really cool. Thanks for the image. But yeah Double Plus One Marines have to have Double Plus One gear. The Models are great. GWs inserting them into the setting, less so.
I still think that it will either be exactly the same as SM tacs ie 1 heavy and 1 special and there just not showing the others. Or it's full units of specials like heresy. Possibly through add on packs?
So, what’s a Primaris Space Marine?
These are a brand-new breed of warrior, commissioned by the Primarch Guilliman and
developed in secret on Mars for the past 10,000 years by Archmagos Dominus
Belisarius Cawl.
Are all my current Space Marine miniatures redundant now?
No way! Primaris Space Marines do not replace regular (if a superhuman killing
machine can be described as ‘regular’) Space Marines. These guys have a few extra
genetic enhancements, thanks to Belisarius Cawl, and serve as additional
reinforcements in the Adeptus Astartes arsenal, not replacements.
Will there be multiple types of Primaris Space Marines?
You bet. So far you’ve seen the Intercessors, the line infantry clad in Mk X armour,
but there are plenty more on the way. And likely vehicles too...
Wait, Mk X armour?
Yup, these guys have new armour: combining the best bits of classic Horus Heresy-era
plate, with some fancy tech developed more recently.
Can I field a whole army of Primaris Marines?
You totally can. From a background point of view, some Chapters, especially those
decimated in the events of the Gathering Storm, now have entire companies of
these new warriors. Others have incorporated squads of Primaris Space Marines into
existing Battle Companies. And perhaps most excitingly, Guilliman has founded some
entirely new Chapters out of these new Space Marines.
I have an <insert favourite Chapter> army. Can I field Primaris Space Marines?
Any of the galaxy’s many hundreds of Codex Chapters can use Primaris Space
Marines, along with many of the less Codex-compliant ones like Dark Angels, Blood
Angels and Space Wolves.
So, Primaris are just better in the game, right? What’s the point of using older Space
Marines?
Marine to Marine, they certainly have some advantages over a Tactical Squad, but it
comes at a cost. These guys will cost more points than standard Space Marines, so
you’ll have fewer of them, and their weapon options will be different. For maximum
tactical punch, you’ll want to bring all your Space Marines to the tabletop.
What if I don’t want to use them?
Well, aside from missing out on some cool new models and tactical options for your
army, then that’s totally cool. You certainly don’t have to include Primaris Space
Marines in your Space Marines army. Though when you see the Primaris Redemptor
Dreadnought, you’ll want to. Primaris Dreadnought? Did I write that…? Nah. Moving
on.
Are the kits compatible with existing Space Marine kits?
Good Question. There are certainly elements of the existing Space Marines kits that
will be cross-compatible, while the new armour mark means that some parts won’t mix
as easily. Shoulder pads and helmets are the same scale, and will still work, whereas
the legs, torso and arms are different, and not quite as interchangeable. In terms of
the Primaris sets themselves, you’ll have loads of fun kit-bashing them.
Can I use these guys alongside my Astra Militarum army?
Yeah you can. These new Space Marines will be available to use alongside all Imperial
armies to fill some battlefield roles your army might normally struggle with.
Do the Primaris Space Marines play nice with the Adeptus Custodes?
They sure do. Many of the Emperor's elite golden guard are accompanying Gulliman
and the Primaris Space Marines on the Indomitus Crusade.
But I play Chaos! Where are my super-super-human reinforcements?
First off, that’ll teach you for turning your back on the Emperor. Secondly, did you
not see the Death Guard teaser video? The Chaos Gods have not been idle - we
guarantee there are some warp-charged hulking warriors on their way for you guys in
the not too distant future.
Guilliman be blessed, these guys are rad! When can I get them?
Primaris Space Marines will be available alongside the new edition of Warhammer
40,000. Oh and while we’re on the subject, we’ll be announcing the release date
before the end of this month…
Justyn wrote: they look really cool. Thanks for the image. But yeah Double Plus One Marines have to have Double Plus One gear. The Models are great. GWs inserting them into the setting, less so.
They will probably have the tripple shot plasma guns that Skiitari use.
Insert note about how Cawl outfitted them with it so it's fluffy.
Just my two cents, but they may have dropped the drone controller simply because if sniper weapons are going to be an important part of the game, and Tau only get the drones to do it, most people are just going to use plastic drones with pulse rifles glued to them. The metal and resin sniper drone kits are simply too cost-prohibitive to be a spam-choice unit. It may hearken back to the original Dark Eldar razorwing flock rules and lack of reasonably-priced models.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Honest to God, I cannot fathom whatsoever why GW thought Tau being bad in close combat was a problem that needed fixing. They mow through charging units. They lose a model or two in close combat, then they waltz right back out of combat and don't even have the ONE drawback that actually matters to them for doing a Fall Back. What the hell?
Seriously, GW keeps saying close combat is going to be brutal. In what way? Since the Fight article they have literally shown absolutely nothing whatsoever that lends credence to that statement. They really need to put up or shut up.
Yes, yes, becuase we have a full rule book with all the stats for every faction. You are obviously right. Command level assumptions there.
There's a discussion of the Damocles Warzone in one of the leaks, which you should be able to find on the first page.
The Faction Focus we're discussing now is also linked on the first page, but is purely discussing game mechanics and playstyles, not fluff.
Check the Warzone Damocles on warhammer community. Also I want to put in a reminder here since this thread is moving like 10 million miles a second. Lady Atia has chimed in on her blog saying the Tau are most likely getting Auxiliaries release from the nature of her hint. Other rumor people say no xenos till next year. So likely next year will be Tau update and probably a big one. Proof is war of sigmar blog warzone damocles comments.
There's a discussion of the Damocles Warzone in one of the leaks, which you should be able to find on the first page.
The Faction Focus we're discussing now is also linked on the first page, but is purely discussing game mechanics and playstyles, not fluff.
Check the Warzone Damocles on warhammer community. Also I want to put in a reminder here since this thread is moving like 10 million miles a second. Lady Atia has chimed in on her blog saying the Tau are most likely getting Auxiliaries release from the nature of her hint. Other rumor people say no xenos till next year. So likely next year will be Tau update and probably a big one. Proof is war of sigmar blog warzone damocles comments.
More tau Auxiliaries would please me greatly.
I hope it's Demiurg. Though Kroot would be cool as hell too. Though more than either I want to see a completely new xenos.
There's a discussion of the Damocles Warzone in one of the leaks, which you should be able to find on the first page.
The Faction Focus we're discussing now is also linked on the first page, but is purely discussing game mechanics and playstyles, not fluff.
Check the Warzone Damocles on warhammer community. Also I want to put in a reminder here since this thread is moving like 10 million miles a second. Lady Atia has chimed in on her blog saying the Tau are most likely getting Auxiliaries release from the nature of her hint. Other rumor people say no xenos till next year. So likely next year will be Tau update and probably a big one. Proof is war of sigmar blog warzone damocles comments.
More tau Auxiliaries would please me greatly.
I hope it's Demiurg. Though Kroot would be cool as hell too. Though more than either I want to see a completely new xenos.
Nicassar give us a new race and "solve" the Tau's psyker "issue" at the same time.
Would require a fluff retcon as to their physical attributes, though.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Honest to God, I cannot fathom whatsoever why GW thought Tau being bad in close combat was a problem that needed fixing. They mow through charging units. They lose a model or two in close combat, then they waltz right back out of combat and don't even have the ONE drawback that actually matters to them for doing a Fall Back. What the hell?
Seriously, GW keeps saying close combat is going to be brutal. In what way? Since the Fight article they have literally shown absolutely nothing whatsoever that lends credence to that statement. They really need to put up or shut up.
Yes, yes, becuase we have a full rule book with all the stats for every faction. You are obviously right. Command level assumptions there.
I don't want the rules for ever fething faction. They said close combat would be brutal. They have not demonstrated that whatsoever. A fethload of bespoke rules should not have to be in place for a unit to be ADEQUATE at close fething combat.
Going first on the charge with powerfists and stuff is pretty brutal, never mind bespoke rules. Stacking HtH wounds on top of shooting wounds in the new morale system is also brutal. I think in some ways GW is doing fine so far with brutal close combat.
When it comes to the Primaris marines, has it been confirmed that they will be using genetic material from the various chapters they are assigned to? I mean, will Space Wolf Primaris marines have fangs? Will Blood Angel Primaris Marines suffer from the Red thirst? Will Salamander Primaris Marines have Black Skin?
Or is it simply that Primaris marines are all the same, even if they are assigned to a specific chapter? For instance, would a Blood Angel Primaris Marine just be a cookie-cutter Primaris that has painted his armor red after being randomly assigned to work for the Blood Angels?
If it is the latter scenario, I wonder if they would ever be considered "true" marines. Likely they'd never know the inner secrets of the Dark Angels for example.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Honest to God, I cannot fathom whatsoever why GW thought Tau being bad in close combat was a problem that needed fixing. They mow through charging units. They lose a model or two in close combat, then they waltz right back out of combat and don't even have the ONE drawback that actually matters to them for doing a Fall Back. What the hell?
Seriously, GW keeps saying close combat is going to be brutal. In what way? Since the Fight article they have literally shown absolutely nothing whatsoever that lends credence to that statement. They really need to put up or shut up.
Yes, yes, becuase we have a full rule book with all the stats for every faction. You are obviously right. Command level assumptions there.
I don't want the rules for ever fething faction. They said close combat would be brutal. They have not demonstrated that whatsoever. A fethload of bespoke rules should not have to be in place for a unit to be ADEQUATE at close fething combat.
Yes, yes, because Demonette's were not scary we have seen Bloodthirsters, Death Company, Black Templar, and all the other close combat heavy forces with enough information that we can actually suss out what is going on. Yup yup, you are once again making command level assumptions.
A unit has to get into CC. What are you looking for? 2+ save with 2+ invulnerable with 10 wounds? Maybe with a 26" movement and a 20" flamer? Maybe costing 50 points with a 10 model cap and take up a troop slot? Would that be good enough for your desire of a CC unit?
Bah, you are giving up the dig before gold has been gotten too.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
cuda1179 wrote: When it comes to the Primaris marines, has it been confirmed that they will be using genetic material from the various chapters they are assigned to? I mean, will Space Wolf Primaris marines have fangs? Will Blood Angel Primaris Marines suffer from the Red thirst? Will Salamander Primaris Marines have Black Skin?
Or is it simply that Primaris marines are all the same, even if they are assigned to a specific chapter? For instance, would a Blood Angel Primaris Marine just be a cookie-cutter Primaris that has painted his armor red after being randomly assigned to work for the Blood Angels?
If it is the latter scenario, I wonder if they would ever be considered "true" marines. Likely they'd never know the inner secrets of the Dark Angels for example.
For some reason I keep thinking back to the Gene-seed sent to be tested by the Chapters. That could of been used and cultivated to make these Marines. It could of been cleansed or filtering out of the abnormalities thing at developed while the Gulilegion's could be mixtures of these.
There's a discussion of the Damocles Warzone in one of the leaks, which you should be able to find on the first page.
The Faction Focus we're discussing now is also linked on the first page, but is purely discussing game mechanics and playstyles, not fluff.
Check the Warzone Damocles on warhammer community. Also I want to put in a reminder here since this thread is moving like 10 million miles a second. Lady Atia has chimed in on her blog saying the Tau are most likely getting Auxiliaries release from the nature of her hint. Other rumor people say no xenos till next year. So likely next year will be Tau update and probably a big one. Proof is war of sigmar blog warzone damocles comments.
More tau Auxiliaries would please me greatly.
I hope it's Demiurg. Though Kroot would be cool as hell too. Though more than either I want to see a completely new xenos.
I really do like the Kroot, and their current basic kit could use a revamp akin to what the fire warriors and SM tactical squad got. More weapon options, poses and crisper detailing. As far as xenos go I think there are numerous kits that are showing their age, eldar guardians, and termagants, etc. Demiurg would also be cool...but in a way i'd rather see something less humanoid or bipedal if we get new aliens.
Fenris-77 wrote: Going first on the charge with powerfists and stuff is pretty brutal, never mind bespoke rules. Stacking HtH wounds on top of shooting wounds in the new morale system is also brutal. I think in some ways GW is doing fine so far with brutal close combat.
They went one step forward and two steps back. Everyone has Hit and Run for free now. The only drawback is you can't really do anything afterward. Tau have that drawback removed. What's next, is GW going to decide they are all pariahs and immune to psychic phase too? And hitting first requires you to even get those power Fists there. That relies on a random mechanic shooting is not subject to. It requires wading through overwatch. And the power Fists that hit at initiative? GW has already said they will be saddled with drawbacks. Probably getting a penalty to hit or flat out only hitting on a six.
cuda1179 wrote: When it comes to the Primaris marines, has it been confirmed that they will be using genetic material from the various chapters they are assigned to? I mean, will Space Wolf Primaris marines have fangs? Will Blood Angel Primaris Marines suffer from the Red thirst? Will Salamander Primaris Marines have Black Skin?
Or is it simply that Primaris marines are all the same, even if they are assigned to a specific chapter? For instance, would a Blood Angel Primaris Marine just be a cookie-cutter Primaris that has painted his armor red after being randomly assigned to work for the Blood Angels?
If it is the latter scenario, I wonder if they would ever be considered "true" marines. Likely they'd never know the inner secrets of the Dark Angels for example.
From the gw community article,
"Though they are a step removed from their brothers, the Primaris Space Marines still bear the gene-seed of their Primarchs, and some dissenting voices worry how this new type of warrior will react with the known genetic quirks and flaws of some of the more unusual Chapters…"
GW is attempting to make the primaris marines as easily accessible as possible to all chapters, in game and in the background. Seems to be a good marketing move.
My official opinion now? NuMarines are boooooring.
It really seems like an excuse to make "truescale" marine models, and that's about it. They appear to be pretty 'meh' in terms of rules. An extra wound and a slightly better ranged, -1 modifier gun is not that exciting, especially if the squad can't get heavy weapons. I'm still curious about the fiction behind them, and just how different from a normal Astartes they actually are. But so far, this feels more like a fan-service release than anything else.
The more interesting bit to me is the Frag Grenade stat line. "Grenade D6". Holy ****!! Is a Frag Grenade really give a D6 'shots'? That sounds intense.
cuda1179 wrote: When it comes to the Primaris marines, has it been confirmed that they will be using genetic material from the various chapters they are assigned to? I mean, will Space Wolf Primaris marines have fangs? Will Blood Angel Primaris Marines suffer from the Red thirst? Will Salamander Primaris Marines have Black Skin?
Or is it simply that Primaris marines are all the same, even if they are assigned to a specific chapter? For instance, would a Blood Angel Primaris Marine just be a cookie-cutter Primaris that has painted his armor red after being randomly assigned to work for the Blood Angels?
If it is the latter scenario, I wonder if they would ever be considered "true" marines. Likely they'd never know the inner secrets of the Dark Angels for example.
From the gw community article,
"Though they are a step removed from their brothers, the Primaris Space Marines still bear the gene-seed of their Primarchs, and some dissenting voices worry how this new type of warrior will react with the known genetic quirks and flaws of some of the more unusual Chapters…"
GW is attempting to make the primaris marines as easily accessible as possible to all chapters, in game and in the background. Seems to be a good marketing move.
Thanks for a quote. I'm rathing intrigued by how they will write the rules for them. Will they have a line of rules that state "They have (Insert chapter) traits", where you just use the special rules from any chapter they happen to be in? If that's the case, I wonder what special abilities they will have when they are taken as an army on their own.
Deathwatch Primaris or Grey knight Primaris could be fun. You've got to know that Guiliman sent the Grey Knights a ton of Primaris after all the help they gave him getting to Terra.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Strange to me that the Gullimarines would use the other primarchs geneseed still.
Obviously this was just to appease everyone and allow them to plug into existing forces, but from a fluff point of view in not buying it
Why wouldn't they be using all the different Geneseed? That makes more sense from a fluff perspective, do you think that certain chapters would accept marines of a different Primarch's stock? They would see themselves as dying out, rather than getting stronger.
But they are dying out. The nu Marines are basically dirt in the face for reserve companies and the scouts.
I just find it odd that a Guilliman sponsored project 10, 000 years in the making would even consider using his inferior brothers geneseed without even knowing what has happened to it since he woke up from his nap... We already know most other Loyalist geneseed is rarely used for obvious reasons. Had he known I'm sure certain chapters would not be allowed to continue.
..."They have (Insert chapter) traits", where you just use the special rules from any chapter they happen to be in? If that's the case, I wonder what special abilities they will have when they are taken as an army on their own.
Deathwatch Primaris or Grey knight Primaris could be fun. You've got to know that Guiliman sent the Grey Knights a ton of Primaris after all the help they gave him getting to Terra.
Chapter rules have not been revealed yet, but primaris marines have the <Chapter> keyword in their entry.
I really dont like what I read on that Tau page. The whole reason close combat shut them down was because it locks down their shooting but now you eat a round or two of shooting, then a round of Tau overwatch, then you hit them, then an entire new round of shooting and overwatch for battlesuits? Also it looks like for dirt cheap you can put ablative wounds you have to chew through just to hurt the stuff that does all the leg work. Except those ablative wounds also do a pretty good job of threatening marines 48 inches away. I know I havent seen what everyone else does but with no emphasis on hand to hand combat, unless these hand to hand combat combat units are rediculously cheap and destructive when they get there.
cuda1179 wrote: When it comes to the Primaris marines, has it been confirmed that they will be using genetic material from the various chapters they are assigned to? I mean, will Space Wolf Primaris marines have fangs? Will Blood Angel Primaris Marines suffer from the Red thirst? Will Salamander Primaris Marines have Black Skin?
Or is it simply that Primaris marines are all the same, even if they are assigned to a specific chapter? For instance, would a Blood Angel Primaris Marine just be a cookie-cutter Primaris that has painted his armor red after being randomly assigned to work for the Blood Angels?
If it is the latter scenario, I wonder if they would ever be considered "true" marines. Likely they'd never know the inner secrets of the Dark Angels for example.
From the gw community article,
"Though they are a step removed from their brothers, the Primaris Space Marines still bear the gene-seed of their Primarchs, and some dissenting voices worry how this new type of warrior will react with the known genetic quirks and flaws of some of the more unusual Chapters…"
GW is attempting to make the primaris marines as easily accessible as possible to all chapters, in game and in the background. Seems to be a good marketing move.
An interesting bit of fluff from one of the answers on Facebook stated that Cawl and co have been using the 5% of gene stock that every chapter is required to send to Mars for purity testing to create the new marines.
It is a neat way of explaining why every chapter could suddenly have access to these guys. It also creates interesting story possibilities as they likely did not have permission from the chapters to mess around with their geneseed.
It is another throw back to the heresy story where you have uneasy relations between the terra/Mars bred marines and those taken from the various homeworlds.
There is a lot of complaining about how this is nonsense from a fluff perspective, but genetic experimentation, secret projects unfolding over millennia, and internal schisms within the imperium are very much a part of the 40k story Dna.
I am very interested to see where the story goes.
What if the improvements to the Primaris Marines are NOT just to the geneseed, but the host as well. The better the match for the geneseed the better the marine it makes. What if they just grew a better host (Clone Wars style) that was especially compatible with the purified geneseed? If that's the case, they would;t really be outsiders, just better marines. Really the only thing they'd be missing would be the cultural connection from chapters that normally only recruit from a specif world/region. To other chapters like the Black Templars it wouldn't make a lick of difference as they recruit from whereever they please at the moment.,
casvalremdeikun wrote: I don't want the rules for ever fething faction. They said close combat would be brutal. They have not demonstrated that whatsoever. A fethload of bespoke rules should not have to be in place for a unit to be ADEQUATE at close fething combat.
The units that are good at close combat are going to be good at it in the same way that a stormsurge is good at shooting because of the rules it has.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I don't want the rules for ever fething faction. They said close combat would be brutal. They have not demonstrated that whatsoever. A fethload of bespoke rules should not have to be in place for a unit to be ADEQUATE at close fething combat.
The units that are good at close combat are going to be good at it in the same way that a stormsurge is good at shooting because of the rules it has.
Except when a shooting army has special rules to ignore the most important part of close combat, the part that stops them from shooting because they are tied up in combat, and still have all their shooting shenanigans and more!
For all we know the average Tau Leadership could be 5. If thats the case they could be taking extra casualties from moral left and right. It could balance things.
The more interesting bit to me is the Frag Grenade stat line. "Grenade D6". Holy ****!! Is a Frag Grenade really give a D6 'shots'? That sounds intense.
I think the truly interesting part will be how many models in a unit can use grenades in each phase. It will be somewhat lackluster if the current rule of one per unit is ported over. Though having all the models in the unit able to use grenades in a phase seems broken. A balance somewhere in between would be ideal.
+++Chargers strike first
++ Person who's turn it is choose the first fight after charges
+ Pistols can shoot into combat
+ Some units can always strike first
+/- Grenades seem pretty kickass
+/- We don't know about charging from vehicles
+/- We don't know how transports work
+/- Units don't run, but heavy losses will cripple them
+/- We don't know about difficult terrain
- Units can retreat
-- Overwatch is in at only -1
-- Some units can retreat and shoot
What am I missing? Seems relatively even in volume anyway
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cuda1179 wrote: For all we know the average Tau Leadership could be 5. If thats the case they could be taking extra casualties from moral left and right. It could balance things.
Well, drone has 6. Tau were the same as the drones so probably 6 army wide.
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macluvin wrote: Except all your wounds are differred to dirt cheap drones
Those sniper drones are not cheap. 3 1W models for half the cost of 5 numarines.
Primaris are just 8E Space Marines. Keeping the old guys was a compromise and I'm personally confident that old Marines are going to slowly fade from store space in maybe a year or slightly more.
People are not going to buy old marines over new marines, even people playing old marine armies (except the stubborn few) will buy them and declare "counts as" if they want to continue old fluff.
Its pretty telling when they are only slightly different state wise, the rumors of them getting basically all the same basic unit types and that they can be in chapters or nee ones with the same flaws concepts just like old marines.
Best way to say it is that they are rebooting space marines.
Insectum7 wrote: My official opinion now? NuMarines are boooooring.
It really seems like an excuse to make "truescale" marine models, and that's about it. They appear to be pretty 'meh' in terms of rules. An extra wound and a slightly better ranged, -1 modifier gun is not that exciting, especially if the squad can't get heavy weapons. I'm still curious about the fiction behind them, and just how different from a normal Astartes they actually are. But so far, this feels more like a fan-service release than anything else.
The more interesting bit to me is the Frag Grenade stat line. "Grenade D6". Holy ****!! Is a Frag Grenade really give a D6 'shots'? That sounds intense.
I was thinking while away from my internet connection and at work, that perhaps we only got a partial datasheet for the Primaris Marines. Especially with the model that shows the plasma gun.
I mean GW as been known to hold stuff back (Rubric's banner upgrade rules for example) so they could have released incomplete information to give us a taste of the new Marine unit but not show off everything.
They've said the new guys get different wargear, so I'm guessing any weapon they have that is similar to a standard weapon will likely have different stats (longer range, more shots, ect) but will cost a lot more. That plasma gun for instance could also be another 30" weapon with Rapid Fire 1. Additionally we know they're getting some stuff that normal marines don't carry. Perhaps this will be a chance to bring back rad and volkite weapons to the main game from the Heresy.
That said, for the forseeable future, there will be some overlap in utility but a bumch of differences too. I can't imagine only an extra wound being snuck into their profile being the only difference. Maybe they'll get locked into MSU squads, but seeing as we don't see the Sergent's wargear (bolt pistol and power sword looks like from one of the group shots) that means we could be missing other key rules and options.
I do sncerely hope there are differences between them and normal marines though. Like by losing Combat Squads as an option, or by having a builting horde option (5-20 models in a unit), or perhaps the basic unit can swap bolters for combat blades or chainswords...
There is a lot of room forthe new guys to get interesting and I feel they're hiding it because it spoils too much of the surprise factor there.
As for the grenade, looks like blasts are going to a multiple shot method. Who knows, maybe d6 is our new small blast, or thee will be no difference in shots between the two and it'll all be in the wounds.
Although I see that this is probably the best opportunity they had to work them in as nu-marines, I must say that as someone who wanted truescale I would have preferred them to just replace the current marines. A massive task, I know, but that's pretty much what this amount to anyway, and in that sense I'm happy with this.
Even working it into the story to make this as gentle a transition as possible, I am still surprised they dared to do this. I've always said that the Space Marines we're using on the tabletop are too small and too weak to function the way they should. They should be killing machines, not just "tough", which is what I'd call them as they are. I can tell you that if I played Space Marines I would immediately shelf what I have and wait to start fresh with these sick new marines.
Daedalus81 wrote: +++Chargers strike first
++ Person who's turn it is choose the first fight after charges
+ Pistols can shoot into combat
+ Some units can always strike first
+/- Grenades seem pretty kickass
+/- We don't know about charging from vehicles
+/- We don't know how transports work
+/- Units don't run, but heavy losses will cripple them
+/- We don't know about difficult terrain
- Units can retreat
-- Overwatch is in at only -1
-- Some units can retreat and shoot
What am I missing? Seems relatively even in volume anyway
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cuda1179 wrote: For all we know the average Tau Leadership could be 5. If thats the case they could be taking extra casualties from moral left and right. It could balance things.
Well, drone has 6. Tau were the same as the drones so probably 6 army wide.
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macluvin wrote: Except all your wounds are differred to dirt cheap drones
Those sniper drones are not cheap. 3 1W models for half the cost of 5 numarines.
Overwatch is a flat 6 to hit, not a -1 unless that's a T'au thing I missed.
Overwatch is a flat 6 to hit, not a -1 unless that's a T'au thing I missed.
Oops you're right so knock that down a peg.
Also you need to only be within an inch to charge so a minor plus there. And the ability to wrap in other units with your 3" move is another small plus.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Strange to me that the Gullimarines would use the other primarchs geneseed still.
Obviously this was just to appease everyone and allow them to plug into existing forces, but from a fluff point of view in not buying it
Why wouldn't they be using all the different Geneseed? That makes more sense from a fluff perspective, do you think that certain chapters would accept marines of a different Primarch's stock? They would see themselves as dying out, rather than getting stronger.
But they are dying out. The nu Marines are basically dirt in the face for reserve companies and the scouts.
I just find it odd that a Guilliman sponsored project 10, 000 years in the making would even consider using his inferior brothers geneseed without even knowing what has happened to it since he woke up from his nap... We already know most other Loyalist geneseed is rarely used for obvious reasons. Had he known I'm sure certain chapters would not be allowed to continue.
It's hardly dirt in the face of current marines, they are still capable super soldiers. I can see how some of them would be jealous or resentful of the new soldiers, and I am sure that is something that will be covered in the fluff. I think this is more interesting than anything.
And "inferior" geneseed is still used very commonly in the fluff, maybe less so than others, though this works for making them more accepted in to their chapters. If the geneseed doesn't work out, then they will stop.
Who is to say that geneseed that was previously inferior wouldn't be made more superior and vice versa after the changes?
ClockworkZion wrote: I was thinking while away from my internet connection and at work, that perhaps we only got a partial datasheet for the Primaris Marines. Especially with the model that shows the plasma gun.
We have the datasheet for the Intercessor Squad (which has been confirmed not to have an option for Heavy or Assault weapons). What we haven't seen is if there are other types of squads of Primaris Space Marines beyond the Intercessor Squad armed with weapons beyond the Bolt Rifle.
ClockworkZion wrote: I was thinking while away from my internet connection and at work, that perhaps we only got a partial datasheet for the Primaris Marines. Especially with the model that shows the plasma gun.
We have the datasheet for the Intercessor Squad (which has been confirmed not to have an option for Heavy or Assault weapons). What we haven't seen is if there are other types of squads of Primaris Space Marines beyond the Intercessor Squad armed with weapons beyond the Bolt Rifle.
Missed the confirmation. Still missing the Sergeant's wargear since we saw im with a power sword and bolt pistol.
Which still means the may not be locked in at 5 models.
That said, a troops choice that has no options could make for an interesting army in how it all fits together and synergizes (assuming every squad is a specialist of some kind and doesn't mix and match roles like regular Marines) but that kind of army can fall apart with some dedicated fire power aimed at a specific point in the army.
ClockworkZion wrote: I was thinking while away from my internet connection and at work, that perhaps we only got a partial datasheet for the Primaris Marines. Especially with the model that shows the plasma gun.
We have the datasheet for the Intercessor Squad (which has been confirmed not to have an option for Heavy or Assault weapons). What we haven't seen is if there are other types of squads of Primaris Space Marines beyond the Intercessor Squad armed with weapons beyond the Bolt Rifle.
Just to come back about the CC they said on Facebook if a t'au is suround by orcs for exemple and don't have enough space they cannot fall back, that could be a tactic for CC army's against t'au.
Yes, I should have been a little more specific and said we don't have any information from GW about any Primaris Space Marine squads beyond the Intercessor Squad. Its a sure bet that there will be other squads beyond just Intercessor Squads.
ClockworkZion wrote: Still missing the Sergeant's wargear since we saw im with a power sword and bolt pistol..
Depends on whether or not Game Workshop is keeping with the traditions and markings they they've laid down in Insignium Astartes and their own Studio armies. In the debut video for the Primaris Space Marines, there's a shot or two of what looks to be a squad or two of Space Marines. The squad looks like it's made up of four Primaris Marines and one Primaris Marine that has a red helmet, all armed with bolters. Going by Insignium Astartes and GW's current Studio armies, the red helmeted Primaris Marine should be the Sergeant. The Primaris Marine that has the white-red-white livery running down his helmet and is armed with the bolt pistol and power sword might be a character of some kind (maybe akain to the Space Marine Commander).
Ghaz wrote: Yes, I should have been a little more specific and said we don't have any information from GW about any Primaris Space Marine squads beyond the Intercessor Squad. Its a sure bet that there will be other squads beyond just Intercessor Squads.
In.. one of the things (the newsletter I think) they said something to the effect of more Primaris Marines and Vehicles are on the way.. I think it's just a matter of special and heavy weapons being specifically relegated to squads that are dedicated to those tasks. To me that makes sense from a fluff standpoint too.. The older Astartes would have had time to drill and train on numerous weapon systems.. plus their superior genes (I can't type that with a straight face) means they are just all around more capable. I full expect the PMarines to have heavy and special kits available but I expect them to be separated out into their own boxes and initially all the army will be 5 man squads. (my prediction anyway.. calling it now).
Bulldogging wrote: I wonder if the space wolf gene seed requiring fenrisians is going to be retconned for the numarines.
Correct me if I am wrong, but there are still some Fenrisian refugees are there not? If not, they will have to retcon it, state that the new geneseed is different and doesn't require Fenrisians, or get rid of Space Yiffs.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Honest to God, I cannot fathom whatsoever why GW thought Tau being bad in close combat was a problem that needed fixing. They mow through charging units. They lose a model or two in close combat, then they waltz right back out of combat and don't even have the ONE drawback that actually matters to them for doing a Fall Back. What the hell?
Seriously, GW keeps saying close combat is going to be brutal. In what way? Since the Fight article they have literally shown absolutely nothing whatsoever that lends credence to that statement. They really need to put up or shut up.
Yes, yes, becuase we have a full rule book with all the stats for every faction. You are obviously right. Command level assumptions there.
I don't want the rules for ever fething faction. They said close combat would be brutal. They have not demonstrated that whatsoever. A fethload of bespoke rules should not have to be in place for a unit to be ADEQUATE at close fething combat.
Worst of all is when you see a monster at shooting thats supposed to crumple like tissue paper when in hand to hand gets rules that nullify hand to hand units. The tau have special rules that castrate your close combat units.
Bulldogging wrote: I wonder if the space wolf gene seed requiring fenrisians is going to be retconned for the numarines.
That was never 100% the case in the first place, as the entire first generation of Space Wolves (before Russ was found and they started recruiting Fenrisians) were from Terra and already had the geneseed (heck, in Prospero Burns one of them is even a Rune Priest).
After that the Wolves never even really tried to get recruits from other planets than Fenris as far as I can see from the fluff, and while the what happened to the Wolf Brothers could be related to recruitment, them mutating and going full Chaos Wulfen (at least those that popped up in Battle for the Fang, which still were several great companies at least) might as well be related to overall instability issues with the gene seed or other external circumstances (most of the chapter getting swallowed by the warp during travelling, their home planet getting swallowed by the warp, not having enough wolf and rune priests to keep a sudden wulfen pandemic in check, direct involvement of Magnus going after them first before attacking Fenris for the first time etc. etc.).
Until Magnus melted most of the land the Fenrisian tribes were living on, there was always enough recruitment potential on Fenris to get back to their 2500+ strength, even after basically losing roughly half the chapter when they funded the Wolf Brothers, they even had enough Fenrisian mortals to have entire regiments of them as quasi PDF and fill out all the other non-Astartes roles in the chapter (e.g. the crews of their ships in their entirety) so there wasn't any point for them in bothering with the logistics and effort required to set up off-world recruitment. Some worlds like Garm (part of the SW 'empire') were settled by the same colonists as Fenris was AFAIR, so their genetics should be fine for that.
If anything the Wolves need a quick stop-gap solution to get back to strength until they figure their recruitment issues out as they lost a large junk of their manpower as well as most their recruitment ability, Primaris Marines and the likely return of Russ should do nicely.
@Tau and Crisis suits jumping out of combat:
If them being able to fire after retreating from combat is going to replace their whole "jump, shoot, jump" schtick then I don't see why everyone seems to act like the sky is falling. Right now it is almost impossible to actually get in combat with Crisis suits because they can just jump a huge distance away from you while still shooting often for maximum effect, enabling them to keep out of effective assault range of most units indefinitely and kite them to death.
If that's gone you can now actually get in combat with them (particularly with a high movement stat) with the new and nasty stuff that assault units are getting, particularly D3 or D6 damage melee weapons will do a number on them. Sure, they get to disengage and shoot afterwards, what is left of them anyways which might not be much. And if Crisis suits are priced appropriately pointswise that losing most or even an entire of them will result in a huge handicap for the Tau player...
Looks like an improvement for murdering them in CC to me.
Same with the "For the Greater Good", we have no idea if Tau will even have any way of improving their overwatch to hit chance. The big problem in this edition is with them basically getting to fire at often full BS with several units at anyone who charges them, if they are stuck with hitting on a 6+ like everyone else and the support fire of other units has limited range... or units can charge out of moving vehicles ... then it will be much less of a problem than it is now. And if players equip their Crisis with Flamers to make up for it then it means less plasma and missiles will be flying your way at range which is great if you are playing MEQ or TEQ. Not to mention casualty removal from the front being very likely gone which would remove one of the main reasons why tau overwatch fire was so extremely strong against melee units.
Also, correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I remember we still don't know whether or not units in combat will be able to prevent units from falling back, by e.g requiring the unit to pass an equivalent of a initiative test or something similar?
It's not like a Khorne Bezerker could not move 8" then get its 2d6" Move+ Advance followed by a 3" shift and lastly need to be in an inch... Hell thats what 19" average threat.... Sorry bit that sounds down right insane.
So many things could be going on here... So many. Even if you do get shot at during the charge, everything in range attempts to charge and they likely can't shoot every single one with every unit.
Bulldogging wrote: I wonder if the space wolf gene seed requiring fenrisians is going to be retconned for the numarines.
That was never 100% the case in the first place, as the entire first generation of Space Wolves (before Russ was found and they started recruiting Fenrisians) were from Terra and already had the geneseed (heck, in Prospero Burns one of them is even a Rune Priest).
After that the Wolves never even really tried to get recruits from other planets than Fenris as far as I can see from the fluff, and while the what happened to the Wolf Brothers could be related to recruitment, them mutating and going full Chaos Wulfen (at least those that popped up in Battle for the Fang, which still were several great companies at least) might as well be related to overall instability issues with the gene seed or other external circumstances (most of the chapter getting swallowed by the warp during travelling, their home planet getting swallowed by the warp, not having enough wolf and rune priests to keep a sudden wulfen pandemic in check, etc. etc.).
Until Magnus melted most of the land the Fenrisian tribes were living on, there was always enough recruitment potential on Fenris to get back to their 2500+ strength, even after basically losing roughly half the chapter when they funded the Wolf Brothers, they even had enough Fenrisian mortals to have entire regiments of them as quasi PDF and fill out all the other non-Astartes roles in the chapter (e.g. the crews of their ships in their entirety) so there wasn't any point for them in bothering with the logistics and effort required to set up off-world recruitment. Some worlds like Garm (part of the SW 'empire') were settled by the same colonists as Fenris was AFAIR, so their genetics should be fine for that.
If anything the Wolves need a quick stop-gap solution to get back to strength until they figure their recruitment issues out as they lost a large junk of their manpower as well as most their recruitment ability, Primaris Marines and the likely return of Russ should do nicely.
@Tau and Crisis suits jumping out of combat:
If them being able to fire after retreating from combat is going to replace their whole "jump, shoot, jump" schtick then I don't see why everyone seems to act like the sky is falling. Right now it is almost impossible to actually get in combat with Crisis suits because they can just jump a huge distance away from you while still shooting often for maximum effect, enabling them to keep out of effective assault range of most units and kite them to death.
If that's gone you can now actually get in combat with them (particularly with a high movement stat) with the new and nasty stuff that assault units are getting, particularly D3 or D6 damage melee weapons will do a number on them. Sure, they get to disengage and shoot afterwards, what is left of them anyways which might not be much. And if Crisis suits are priced appropriately pointswise that losing most or even an entire of them will result in a huge handicap for the Tau player...
Looks like an improvement for murdering them in CC to me.
Same with the "For the Greater Good", we have no idea if Tau will even have any way of improving their overwatch to hit chance. The big problem in this edition is with them basically getting to fire at often full BS with several units at anyone who charges them, if they are stuck with hitting on a 6+ like everyone else and the support fire of other units has limited range... or units can charge out of moving vehicles ... then it will be much less of a problem than it is now. And if players equip their Crisis with Flamers to make up for it then it means less plasma and missiles will be flying your way at range which is great if you are playing MEQ or TEQ.
Also, correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I remember we still don't know whether or not units in combat will be able to prevent units from falling back, by e.g requiring the unit to pass an equivalent of a initiative test or something similar?
Correct. We don't know what else think like Lash Whips Claws, Fear like effects, etc will be a thing.
It also makes sense that the T'au would have abilities like that where the Guard would not. Since the guard can easily set up rank withdrawals.
H.B.M.C. wrote: So... why do the Bolt Rifles do more damage?
To make you go out and replace your entire Marine army, naturally.
With entire squads that only have S4 bolter fire to offer for a higher price than Tacs, while not being able to equip any special or heavy weapons, wohoooooooo.
Another 6" of range and -1 AP won't do much for them if they cost many more points than Tacs, have zero flexibility particularly against tanks, and are limited to small unit sizes.
As far as I see it they are an elite unit you use to beef up your lines by throwing in some additional bolter fire and being relatively good in close combat with their additional attack (now that having a pistol+CCW is likely no longer giving you an additional attack and with no additional attacks on the charge being confirmed that will matter much more).
I mean if one has tunnel-vision and goes with the whole "but if they are strictly better than everyone will replace the weaker grunts with them" argument then I wonder why IG players are not squeezing in as many Scions/Stormtroopers in any list as they can because they are strictly better than regular guardsmen if you ignore the point cost difference (and hey, Scions can at least have special weapons in addition to having a basic weapon that is statistically stronger against 3+ save units than a bolter is).
KommissarKiln wrote: My thoughts on the Numarine & Tau articles without having read any other posts:
Numarines: They're regular Marines with an A/W buff, and slightly better guns. Oh, and their pauldrons aren't so wacky looking in terms of scale. Aside from that, they're Space Marines. GW's lack of originality in that model line is honestly painful. For the number of kits they've released, SM must be the least diverse model line I've seen. And that's coming from a Guard player where all non-Russ vehicles have an identical sprue.
Tau: I will safely conclude that if 2/3 units they mention can fall back from combat and still shoot, it will be the case for many other units ($10 says Riptides will have a similar or identical rule). That was one of the only things assault armies had on Tau: stopping them from shooting if you could survive rounds of shooting and overwatch. And with the lack of any mentioned nerfs against a decidedly very strong army, I have grown quite concerned about the game's balance very suddenly; even the Eldar article didn't have me as worried.
Overall, I found today pretty disappointing.
Keep in mind if the unit can't fly it probably can't fall back if it's surrounded.
That's a good point. I'd expect GW to price them at sigmarine levels which when I looked 2 years ago were pretty pricey per fig. As for the side by side shot, there is one shot in the youtube video on GW's channel that has the numariens next to old 3rd-7th ed style plastics although it's shot at an angle.
You may be happy to find out they reboxed all the Sigmarines into boxes of 10 and dropped the price by a bit over 10%.
H.B.M.C. wrote: So... why do the Bolt Rifles do more damage?
Because like alot of guns in the real world, bigger is better, more power.
Yeah. It's like the difference between Guard plasma guns and Marine plas... Er... The difference between hand held stormbolters and pintle stormbol... Uh... The difference between terminator assault cannons and dreadnought assaul.... No... Uh...
Yeah. It might just be because we're supposed to buy these guys instead of regular Marines.
I'll probably just throw my deathwatch away or give them to someone. Learned my lesson about giving GW that dirty marine money.
I was just about to start working on them too. Was starting to glue them and get ready for painting. Now all of those rpg adventures of being elite feel like a letdown. A make sure to buy your ovaltine lesson for sure. I'm never touching another marine model if I don't have to.
Bulldogging wrote:
I wonder if the space wolf gene seed requiring fenrisians is going to be retconned for the numarines.
That was never 100% the case in the first place, as the entire first generation of Space Wolves (before Russ was found and they started recruiting Fenrisians) were from Terra and already had the geneseed (heck, in Prospero Burns one of them is even a Rune Priest).
After that the Wolves never even really tried to get recruits from other planets than Fenris as far as I can see from the fluff, and while the what happened to the Wolf Brothers could be related to recruitment, them mutating and going full Chaos Wulfen (at least those that popped up in Battle for the Fang, which still were several great companies at least) might as well be related to overall instability issues with the gene seed or other external circumstances (most of the chapter getting swallowed by the warp during travelling, their home planet getting swallowed by the warp, not having enough wolf and rune priests to keep a sudden wulfen pandemic in check, etc. etc.).
Until Magnus melted most of the land the Fenrisian tribes were living on, there was always enough recruitment potential on Fenris to get back to their 2500+ strength, even after basically losing roughly half the chapter when they funded the Wolf Brothers, they even had enough Fenrisian mortals to have entire regiments of them as quasi PDF and fill out all the other non-Astartes roles in the chapter (e.g. the crews of their ships in their entirety) so there wasn't any point for them in bothering with the logistics and effort required to set up off-world recruitment. Some worlds like Garm (part of the SW 'empire') were settled by the same colonists as Fenris was AFAIR, so their genetics should be fine for that.
If anything the Wolves need a quick stop-gap solution to get back to strength until they figure their recruitment issues out as they lost a large junk of their manpower as well as most their recruitment ability, Primaris Marines and the likely return of Russ should do nicely.
@Tau and Crisis suits jumping out of combat:
If them being able to fire after retreating from combat is going to replace their whole "jump, shoot, jump" schtick then I don't see why everyone seems to act like the sky is falling. Right now it is almost impossible to actually get in combat with Crisis suits because they can just jump a huge distance away from you while still shooting often for maximum effect, enabling them to keep out of effective assault range of most units and kite them to death.
If that's gone you can now actually get in combat with them (particularly with a high movement stat) with the new and nasty stuff that assault units are getting, particularly D3 or D6 damage melee weapons will do a number on them. Sure, they get to disengage and shoot afterwards, what is left of them anyways which might not be much. And if Crisis suits are priced appropriately pointswise that losing most or even an entire of them will result in a huge handicap for the Tau player...
Looks like an improvement for murdering them in CC to me.
Same with the "For the Greater Good", we have no idea if Tau will even have any way of improving their overwatch to hit chance. The big problem in this edition is with them basically getting to fire at often full BS with several units at anyone who charges them, if they are stuck with hitting on a 6+ like everyone else and the support fire of other units has limited range... or units can charge out of moving vehicles ... then it will be much less of a problem than it is now. And if players equip their Crisis with Flamers to make up for it then it means less plasma and missiles will be flying your way at range which is great if you are playing MEQ or TEQ.
Also, correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I remember we still don't know whether or not units in combat will be able to prevent units from falling back, by e.g requiring the unit to pass an equivalent of a initiative test or something similar?
Correct. We don't know what else think like Lash Whips Claws, Fear like effects, etc will be a thing.
It also makes sense that the Tau would have abilities like that where the Guard would not. Since the guard can easily set up rank withdrawals.
All true. But like many others I am at the point where nothing they have said has led me to believe that Assault is a viable option in this edition. While there is ample evidence of anti-assault rules/effects that will be in play. I'll continue to pay attention in hope that 40k once again becomes a game that is enjoyable to play. While my decision does not hinge upon assault, that certainly is one of the considerations. But my early optimism is fading quickly.
ClockworkZion wrote: Still missing the Sergeant's wargear since we saw im with a power sword and bolt pistol..
Depends on whether or not Game Workshop is keeping with the traditions and markings they they've laid down in Insignium Astartes and their own Studio armies. In the debut video for the Primaris Space Marines, there's a shot or two of what looks to be a squad or two of Space Marines. The squad looks like it's made up of four Primaris Marines and one Primaris Marine that has a red helmet, all armed with bolters. Going by Insignium Astartes and GW's current Studio armies, the red helmeted Primaris Marine should be the Sergeant. The Primaris Marine that has the white-red-white livery running down his helmet and is armed with the bolt pistol and power sword might be a character of some kind (maybe akain to the Space Marine Commander).
White line down the middle of a red helmet has traditionally been used to define a veteran sergeant over a normal sergeant.
H.B.M.C. wrote: So... why do the Bolt Rifles do more damage?
Because like alot of guns in the real world, bigger is better, more power.
Yeah. It's like the difference between Guard plasma guns and Marine plas... Er... The difference between hand held stormbolters and pintle stormbol... Uh... The difference between terminator assault cannons and dreadnought assaul.... No... Uh...
Yeah. It might just be because we're supposed to buy these guys instead of regular Marines.
Guardsman and marines have the same plasma guns etc.
Think of it more like a heavy Bolter compared to a normal bolter; they are different guns.
In regards to the fly special rule and leaving combat while still shooting, this makes thematic sense to me.
You close the distance on a flying ranged support unit and don't kill them. They then lunch h themselves into the air while raining hell upon you. Picturing scourges, assault marines, vespids, storm boyz, and seraphim all pulling that move off.
While it is annoying,, they are at least in the open for a turn instead of being able to jump-shoot-jump without a chance for retaliation. Now they have to close (most suit weapons aren't very long range) and now you can charge them for getting there.
As a side note, I wonder if the "can't shoot a character unless they are the closest model" rule applies to overwatch as well.
Suddenly a character rushing out in front at the last minute while disallowing overwatch (sincethey didn't see him coming) like do wonders for letting vital assault elements get into combat unmolested.
Gamgee wrote: I'll probably just throw my deathwatch away or give them to someone. Learned my lesson about giving GW that dirty marine money.
I was just about to start working on them too. Was starting to glue them and get ready for painting. Now all of those rpg adventures of being elite feel like a letdown. A make sure to buy your ovaltine lesson for sure. I'm never touching another marine model if I don't have to.
If you want to give them away I will be glad to take them, I'll even pay for the shipping
I'm really worried about my Wyches this edition. I was really hoping they'd have a role to play in a DE army this time around. I know they weren't favoured in 7th but I still ran them and to be honest I had pretty decent success with them but I mostly ran them as a tarpit unit. That 4++ in CC really locked down elite opponents with few attacks. Now that everyone can choose to exit combat I started to fear for their viability as they can't even tarpit anymore but after seeing the Tau rules for getting to shoot after fleeing I'm really wondering how they'll be able to compete.
Fingers crossed that GW and the playtesters have found fun and unique ways to make Wyches a viable choice but I'll admit this is the first time I've been worried about the balance of 8th (not 8th as a whole, just 8th in regards to my favourite unit), just gotta be patient and see what it's like when it launches now I suppose.
Gamgee wrote: I'll probably just throw my deathwatch away or give them to someone. Learned my lesson about giving GW that dirty marine money.
I was just about to start working on them too. Was starting to glue them and get ready for painting. Now all of those rpg adventures of being elite feel like a letdown. A make sure to buy your ovaltine lesson for sure. I'm never touching another marine model if I don't have to.
Haha oh wait, you're serious.. Bender meme then.
You do know, that deathwatch weren't the most elite marines anyway, right? There are also custodes. And all flavores of elite veterans from every chapter, like lone wolves, deathwatch, grey Knights, singuinus guard, ect...
Anyway, if you let a release of miniatures spoil you're entire hobby project (which is unwise), and there is no way of avoiding the haunting feeling, that somewhere in a a different game (assuming, that you play the RPG), might be mk X, think of them as of just stronger dudes. You don't have to have better stats to be elite, IMHO, deathwatch have more experience and are all unique (mkX is a new working horse).
T'au lodning JSJ on their suits is, assuming it's true, a start, but with the loss of extra attacks on the charge you might not have enough oomph in one assault phase to do much damage, at which point the suits will jump away and start the whole thing again. This seems to promote units like TH/SS Terminators that pack a ferocious alpha punch (assuming they still do).
They've spoken a lot about how "brutal" CC will be, but losing the extra attack on the charge lowers alpha potential at the same time that falling back makes alpha striking in melee even more important. Still, being able to reach combat and getting to swing before the rest of the enemy army opens fire on you again is better than not getting into CC at all.
ImAGeek wrote: Deathwatch weren't ever more elite anyway were they? They're just marines on loan from different chapters, with a more specialised role.
They are more elite. They're basic troops are the elites of other chapters. They were allowed to have more advanced and even use new technology or captured xenos tech. Now all of that unique aspect is gone. Probably going to even be replaced by numarines eventually with even more advanced stuff then current ones. They do have more experience for now, but I doubt the subtlety of GW's marketing nu-marines is going to let that show through the day. At the end of the day they want to sell models and they want to see players making nu-marine armies. I'm just ripping off the band-aid now. Eventually after a long enough time it wouldn't surprise me if in lore normal marines start going obsolete and extinct. I mean why waste resources replacing them when you can have the latest thing?
Whatever dude, you're being a bit of a drama queen, IMHO Besides this doesn't make sense, because numarines army is not structured that way, they are not made up from vets and they don't have all that access to Xenos weapons. And in no way they're shown as the ones, seeking to be as distinct as possible from each other:
"They're basic troops are the elites of other chapters. They were allowed to have more advanced and even use new technology or captured xenos tech. Now all of that unique aspect is gone. Probably going to even be replaced by numarines eventually with even more advanced "
since we saw im with a power sword and bolt pistol..
Depends on whether or not Game Workshop is keeping with the traditions and markings they they've laid down in Insignium Astartes and their own Studio armies. In the debut video for the Primaris Space Marines, there's a shot or two of what looks to be a squad or two of Space Marines. The squad looks like it's made up of four Primaris Marines and one Primaris Marine that has a red helmet, all armed with bolters. Going by Insignium Astartes and GW's current Studio armies, the red helmeted Primaris Marine should be the Sergeant. The Primaris Marine that has the white-red-white livery running down his helmet and is armed with the bolt pistol and power sword might be a character of some kind (maybe akain to the Space Marine Commander).
White line down the middle of a red helmet has traditionally been used to define a veteran sergeant over a normal sergeant.
Veteran of what, though? If these guys are brand spanking new... Did he go through more combat drills than the other ones?
SnotlingPimpWagon wrote: Whatever dude, you're being a bit of a drama queen, IMHO Besides this doesn't make sense, because numarines army is not structured that way, they are not made up from vets and they don't have all that access to Xenos weapons. And in no way they're shown as the ones, seeking to be as distinct as possible from each other:
"They're basic troops are the elites of other chapters. They were allowed to have more advanced and even use new technology or captured xenos tech. Now all of that unique aspect is gone. Probably going to even be replaced by numarines eventually with even more advanced "
*facepalm* The chapters give their best men to the deathwatch. What happens when all the chapters are nu-marines? They give nu-marines. Since you need to support the new larger space marines that means developing or giving existing gear to the DW that fits the nu-marines and not the old. Eventually over the course of years nu-marines will replace every marine model everywhere in real life. hastings himself the one and only one of the most accurate rumor people even confirmed the old marines will not be getting any new releases or they would be extremely rare. It's over. A slow putting down the dog over. Stop being in denial and buy nu-marines or get out of the way.
BrotherGecko wrote: Primaris are just 8E Space Marines. Keeping the old guys was a compromise and I'm personally confident that old Marines are going to slowly fade from store space in maybe a year or slightly more.
People are not going to buy old marines over new marines, even people playing old marine armies (except the stubborn few) will buy them and declare "counts as" if they want to continue old fluff.
Its pretty telling when they are only slightly different state wise, the rumors of them getting basically all the same basic unit types and that they can be in chapters or nee ones with the same flaws concepts just like old marines.
Best way to say it is that they are rebooting space marines.
They are doing a very poor job at it, to be honest.
Just saying "here, these now are extra special, so BOY DO YOU WANNA HAVE THEM! Don't mind the ones you have lovingly crafted and converted, those are crap now that these boys are around." ain't gonna cut it, and if the Marine players don't all like it (and you can tell it's not really being hyped as it was expected) it will be noticed in sales number... and GW WILL take note.
I would have bought true scale marines. I would have been fine with that, but it's their dumb as hell lore that is pissing me off. It makes all the old marines look like idiots and they exist solely to show them up now.
Old marines are about to feel how IG players feel every day.
it would have been real cool if GW made existing marine's truescale without the dumb lore. Then they could have said gulliman made new armor and weapons for all the chapters and new training regiments to increase their skill or something.
Heck you could have easily said he modified the existing marines slowly to give them superior stats and that is why it took them so long to make sure there was no errors in increasing the existing marines to even further heights.
They have been handled extremely poorly. I think this is probably the worse thing I've seen new GW do in a long time by far.
BrotherGecko wrote: Primaris are just 8E Space Marines. Keeping the old guys was a compromise and I'm personally confident that old Marines are going to slowly fade from store space in maybe a year or slightly more.
People are not going to buy old marines over new marines, even people playing old marine armies (except the stubborn few) will buy them and declare "counts as" if they want to continue old fluff.
Its pretty telling when they are only slightly different state wise, the rumors of them getting basically all the same basic unit types and that they can be in chapters or nee ones with the same flaws concepts just like old marines.
Best way to say it is that they are rebooting space marines.
They are doing a very poor job at it, to be honest.
Just saying "here, these now are extra special, so BOY DO YOU WANNA HAVE THEM! Don't mind the ones you have lovingly crafted and converted, those are crap now that these boys are around." ain't gonna cut it, and if the Marine players don't all like it (and you can tell it's not really being hyped as it was expected) it will be noticed in sales number... and GW WILL take note.
3 things sell models, in order: Rules, the actual models, fluff/nostalgia. The numarines are objectively very good models so that's one. If the rules are good, which they should be, then that's two. with 2/3 I doubt the last one will matter over much.
Also don't take online forums too seriously as far as forecasting goes. They have a heavy negative bias.
Gamgee wrote: I'll probably just throw my deathwatch away or give them to someone. Learned my lesson about giving GW that dirty marine money.
I was just about to start working on them too. Was starting to glue them and get ready for painting. Now all of those rpg adventures of being elite feel like a letdown. A make sure to buy your ovaltine lesson for sure. I'm never touching another marine model if I don't have to.
Nothing's changed about the miniatures you own.
But if you do throw them away, be sure to set fire to them on YouTube.
Hahah yeah. At least with Tau Empire replacing things it makes sense. I'm prepaid for some dumb thing to happen because the Tau are always advancing. For the greater good ect. So depending on how they did an "updating" of the Tau range if they ever did it could be easily justified and everyone in the Empire would be cool with it.
Edit
Since so many people own space marines and so many will be selling off their entire armies. You watch. I can't even sell them off to people. Same thing happened at the end of warhammer fantasy. They may as well be junk.
Gamgee wrote: I would have bought true scale marines. I would have been fine with that, but it's their dumb as hell lore that is pissing me off. It makes all the old marines look like idiots and they exist solely to show them up now.
Old marines are about to feel how IG players feel every day.
it would have been real cool if GW made existing marine's truescale without the dumb lore. Then they could have said gulliman made new armor and weapons for all the chapters and new training regiments to increase their skill or something.
Heck you could have easily said he modified the existing marines slowly to give them superior stats and that is why it took them so long to make sure there was no errors in increasing the existing marines to even further heights.
They have been handled extremely poorly. I think this is probably the worse thing I've seen new GW do in a long time by far.
The simplest way they could've done this is saying "Hey guys we know you guys wanted to have true scale marines so we took advantage of 8th edition and are going to introduce these news models in a new Mk X armour, the Mk. thingamagiga *insert GW styled name*. Don't worry they are just new models and we will be adding more and slowly replacing the SM boxes over the next couple of years to bring it in line with the new true scale models"
Gamgee wrote: I would have bought true scale marines. I would have been fine with that, but it's their dumb as hell lore that is pissing me off. It makes all the old marines look like idiots and they exist solely to show them up now.
Old marines are about to feel how IG players feel every day.
it would have been real cool if GW made existing marine's truescale without the dumb lore. Then they could have said gulliman made new armor and weapons for all the chapters and new training regiments to increase their skill or something.
Heck you could have easily said he modified the existing marines slowly to give them superior stats and that is why it took them so long to make sure there was no errors in increasing the existing marines to even further heights.
They have been handled extremely poorly. I think this is probably the worse thing I've seen new GW do in a long time by far.
The simplest way they could've done this is saying "Hey guys we know you guys wanted to have true scale marines so we took advantage of 8th edition and are going to introduce these news models in a new Mk X armour, the Mk. thingamagiga *insert GW styled name*. Don't worry they are just new models and we will be adding more and slowly replacing the SM boxes over the next couple of years to bring it in line with the new true scale models"
But no. That'd be too hard.
Yeap would have been simple. The best option. People would have still bought them. GW could have still said if people want to play with old marine models they are free too ect. They chose to gak on the old marines lore actively though.
Gamgee wrote: I would have bought true scale marines. I would have been fine with that, but it's their dumb as hell lore that is pissing me off. It makes all the old marines look like idiots and they exist solely to show them up now.
Old marines are about to feel how IG players feel every day.
it would have been real cool if GW made existing marine's truescale without the dumb lore. Then they could have said gulliman made new armor and weapons for all the chapters and new training regiments to increase their skill or something.
Heck you could have easily said he modified the existing marines slowly to give them superior stats and that is why it took them so long to make sure there was no errors in increasing the existing marines to even further heights.
They have been handled extremely poorly. I think this is probably the worse thing I've seen new GW do in a long time by far.
I play space marines and you know what I thought? 'New dreadnought? Neat.'
Oh the models are well made. I will give you that, but I'm not the biggest marine fan anyways (anyone here for a long time should know that). I only like them in DW and blood ravens flavors and even then they aren't my fav army.
BrotherGecko wrote: Primaris are just 8E Space Marines. Keeping the old guys was a compromise and I'm personally confident that old Marines are going to slowly fade from store space in maybe a year or slightly more.
People are not going to buy old marines over new marines, even people playing old marine armies (except the stubborn few) will buy them and declare "counts as" if they want to continue old fluff.
Its pretty telling when they are only slightly different state wise, the rumors of them getting basically all the same basic unit types and that they can be in chapters or nee ones with the same flaws concepts just like old marines.
Best way to say it is that they are rebooting space marines.
They are doing a very poor job at it, to be honest.
Just saying "here, these now are extra special, so BOY DO YOU WANNA HAVE THEM! Don't mind the ones you have lovingly crafted and converted, those are crap now that these boys are around." ain't gonna cut it, and if the Marine players don't all like it (and you can tell it's not really being hyped as it was expected) it will be noticed in sales number... and GW WILL take note.
3 things sell models, in order: Rules, the actual models, fluff/nostalgia. The numarines are objectively very good models so that's one. If the rules are good, which they should be, then that's two. with 2/3 I doubt the last one will matter over much.
Also don't take online forums too seriously as far as forecasting goes. They have a heavy negative bias.
First of all I'd like you to take note that I didn't say the Marine players wouldn't like it per se. I said that "if the Marine playerbase don't like it, then they won't buy it it will be noted on the sales."
But I'll indulge you - yes, the marines look good, no doubts about it. That's 1.
As for the crunch? There's no way we know how effectively they will be since we don't know the rest of the playing field. So that second point is moot at the moment
As for the fluff... well It'll depend on each person's... taste, or lack of.
SnotlingPimpWagon wrote: Whatever dude, you're being a bit of a drama queen, IMHO Besides this doesn't make sense, because numarines army is not structured that way, they are not made up from vets and they don't have all that access to Xenos weapons. And in no way they're shown as the ones, seeking to be as distinct as possible from each other:
"They're basic troops are the elites of other chapters. They were allowed to have more advanced and even use new technology or captured xenos tech. Now all of that unique aspect is gone. Probably going to even be replaced by numarines eventually with even more advanced "
*facepalm* The chapters give their best men to the deathwatch. What happens when all the chapters are nu-marines? They give nu-marines. Since you need to support the new larger space marines that means developing or giving existing gear to the DW that fits the nu-marines and not the old. Eventually over the course of years nu-marines will replace every marine model everywhere in real life. hastings himself the one and only one of the most accurate rumor people even confirmed the old marines will not be getting any new releases or they would be extremely rare. It's over. A slow putting down the dog over. Stop being in denial and buy nu-marines or get out of the way.
Afaik, Gw didn't say anywhere, that old breed of marines is not manufactures anymore (in the fluff)
In real life GW still plans to support Horus Heresy at the least, and will produce regular marines for a long long time. They might not get many new toys, but do they need to really?? If the range of the old Breed will stop expanding now, personally I wouldn't be too sad: half of GW40k range is enough.
And it's much easier to be in full control of your hobby by not caring about every "new recent fluff tidbit" or any other plot advancement. Fantasy featured characters, that had already died in the background and were on the same page in the army list section with still alive ones
Did it stop people from collecting their army the way they want? No. A lot of people still play fantasy 8th. Because they like what they like and don't bend to every word of the fluff, nor to the INTIMIDATING New toys.
And if you're worried about marine shortage on the market that will impact your ability to finish your collection, you're kidding yourself.
Gamgee wrote: I would have bought true scale marines. I would have been fine with that, but it's their dumb as hell lore that is pissing me off. It makes all the old marines look like idiots and they exist solely to show them up now.
Old marines are about to feel how IG players feel every day.
it would have been real cool if GW made existing marine's truescale without the dumb lore. Then they could have said gulliman made new armor and weapons for all the chapters and new training regiments to increase their skill or something.
Heck you could have easily said he modified the existing marines slowly to give them superior stats and that is why it took them so long to make sure there was no errors in increasing the existing marines to even further heights.
They have been handled extremely poorly. I think this is probably the worse thing I've seen new GW do in a long time by far.
I play space marines and you know what I thought? 'New dreadnought? Neat.'
That's exactly my reaction. I couldn't give a damn about the numarines. I am curious as to the Dreadnought.
Gamgee wrote: I would have bought true scale marines. I would have been fine with that, but it's their dumb as hell lore that is pissing me off. It makes all the old marines look like idiots and they exist solely to show them up now.
Old marines are about to feel how IG players feel every day.
it would have been real cool if GW made existing marine's truescale without the dumb lore. Then they could have said gulliman made new armor and weapons for all the chapters and new training regiments to increase their skill or something.
Heck you could have easily said he modified the existing marines slowly to give them superior stats and that is why it took them so long to make sure there was no errors in increasing the existing marines to even further heights.
They have been handled extremely poorly. I think this is probably the worse thing I've seen new GW do in a long time by far.
Gamgee wrote: I would have bought true scale marines. I would have been fine with that, but it's their dumb as hell lore that is pissing me off. It makes all the old marines look like idiots and they exist solely to show them up now.
Old marines are about to feel how IG players feel every day.
it would have been real cool if GW made existing marine's truescale without the dumb lore. Then they could have said gulliman made new armor and weapons for all the chapters and new training regiments to increase their skill or something.
Heck you could have easily said he modified the existing marines slowly to give them superior stats and that is why it took them so long to make sure there was no errors in increasing the existing marines to even further heights.
They have been handled extremely poorly. I think this is probably the worse thing I've seen new GW do in a long time by far.
Make up your own fluff, dude, Jeez.
And the point goes RIGHT OVER his head like a bolter round.
SnotlingPimpWagon wrote: Whatever dude, you're being a bit of a drama queen, IMHO Besides this doesn't make sense, because numarines army is not structured that way, they are not made up from vets and they don't have all that access to Xenos weapons. And in no way they're shown as the ones, seeking to be as distinct as possible from each other:
"They're basic troops are the elites of other chapters. They were allowed to have more advanced and even use new technology or captured xenos tech. Now all of that unique aspect is gone. Probably going to even be replaced by numarines eventually with even more advanced "
*facepalm* The chapters give their best men to the deathwatch. What happens when all the chapters are nu-marines? They give nu-marines. Since you need to support the new larger space marines that means developing or giving existing gear to the DW that fits the nu-marines and not the old. Eventually over the course of years nu-marines will replace every marine model everywhere in real life. hastings himself the one and only one of the most accurate rumor people even confirmed the old marines will not be getting any new releases or they would be extremely rare. It's over. A slow putting down the dog over. Stop being in denial and buy nu-marines or get out of the way.
Afaik, Gw didn't say anywhere, that old breed of marines is not manufactures anymore (in the fluff)
In real life GW still plans to support Horus Heresy at the least, and will produce regular marines for a long long time. They might not get many new toys, but do they need to really?? If the range of the old Breed will stop expanding now, personally I wouldn't be too sad: half of GW40k range is enough.
And it's much easier to be in full control of your hobby by not caring about every "new recent fluff tidbit" or any other plot advancement. Fantasy featured characters, that had already died in the background and were on the same page in the army list section with still alive ones
Did it stop people from collecting their army the way they want? No. A lot of people still play fantasy 8th. Because they like what they like and don't bend to every word of the fluff, nor to the INTIMIDATING New toys.
And if you're worried about marine shortage on the market that will impact your ability to finish your collection, you're kidding yourself.
Ah so naive. They didn't now, but they will. It;s over. The time is over for old marines. Rip off that band-aid. Your favorite chapters will still exist with nu-marines who are better in every way anyways. Or you can keep drinking the kool-aid. Either way. I don't doubt I can buy cheap old marines, it's selling them that's the problem. Also next to new armies people will start to think your old army looks dumb next to the new ones. I mean look at how irrational people are now. The fluff was so essential to me liking the Deathwatch that this new fluff has effectively killed it. I have no reason to like them anymore. Even my other deathwatch friends feel shafted from a lore perspective.
Anyways I've said all I can.
Edit
If I make my own fluff I may as well just make my own damn game and system. The base fluff has to nice and nutritious for me to do that. Not feeling it with crappy nu-marines. Everything I do would have to be based in the past with my army and that is super stupid.
Gamgee wrote: I would have bought true scale marines. I would have been fine with that, but it's their dumb as hell lore that is pissing me off. It makes all the old marines look like idiots and they exist solely to show them up now.
Old marines are about to feel how IG players feel every day.
it would have been real cool if GW made existing marine's truescale without the dumb lore. Then they could have said gulliman made new armor and weapons for all the chapters and new training regiments to increase their skill or something.
Heck you could have easily said he modified the existing marines slowly to give them superior stats and that is why it took them so long to make sure there was no errors in increasing the existing marines to even further heights.
They have been handled extremely poorly. I think this is probably the worse thing I've seen new GW do in a long time by far.
Make up your own fluff, dude, Jeez.
Funnily enough that's what we have been doing and which has luckily basically locked us out of these. With our world being already well past into next millenium with no Guillimann waking up and certian oddities in timeline anyway(I mean these gets created at the end of 41 millenia right? If so would be pretty weird they missed chaos invasion of sol system etc if they are supposed to be so great...) that fitting them into fluff would break it too much.
We ain't starting scratch our campaign for these. Not important enough.
So numarines are 100% out of our games quaranteed.
It's all good to me. SM ranges are fleshed out to the point of new releases having to be some kind of stupid looking just so players can get a different vibe compared to the other kits. Bigger SM's were coming sooner or later - it was a fact of life. The new warp rift and the new marines make SMvsSM battles not look atleast a bit silly now as they have a real major rift in their knightly dogma. You know, the old matters of "my chapter disagrees on combat tactics or methods with your chapter" or "your chapter must be a bunch of heretics". It always bugged me how in the post 5th escalating fluff of the galaxy being full of danger SM's still found time and reasons to duke it out among themselves.
Now older SM's can royally kick the ass of the new boys with no experience. "Hey, upstart, we were here before you and kicking ass while you were being bred in your glass jar. Stop acting like you're better than us". I can have something like the begrudged and totally pissed off legions of the Horus Heresy while still being loyalist - yay!
It's probably been said many times in this thread already, but I just felt like adding my voice to the choir . Kiss my arse Imperium Secundus - there is only one Imperium
Emperor almighty.. people really need to relax. First people burned their Fantasy armies when Age of Sigmar was announced, and now they will sell their Marine armies because a new type of Marine was made?
I don't mind the fluff. They have even mentioned that some Chapters are actually sceptical and not sure what to think about these new Marines. I think this opens up for some nice progression within the Chapters themselves. Not to mention that the models themselves might just be the coolest minis that GW has ever produced, just from these first few glimpses I am pretty much sold.
I might be a simple man; I see a model I like, that is fun to play with, and I'm a happy camper. Stop treating plastic figures like the end of the world, and just relax.
Inevitable_Faith wrote: I'm really worried about my Wyches this edition. I was really hoping they'd have a role to play in a DE army this time around. I know they weren't favoured in 7th but I still ran them and to be honest I had pretty decent success with them but I mostly ran them as a tarpit unit. That 4++ in CC really locked down elite opponents with few attacks. Now that everyone can choose to exit combat I started to fear for their viability as they can't even tarpit anymore but after seeing the Tau rules for getting to shoot after fleeing I'm really wondering how they'll be able to compete.
Fingers crossed that GW and the playtesters have found fun and unique ways to make Wyches a viable choice but I'll admit this is the first time I've been worried about the balance of 8th (not 8th as a whole, just 8th in regards to my favourite unit), just gotta be patient and see what it's like when it launches now I suppose.
Many things could have happened but unfortunately wyches are likely to be troops level light assault infantry (like wracks except they were elites for... reasons). Massed haywire could make a return but without rending (which its hard to see them getting) they are going to bounce on anything vaguely tough. As you say tarpitting is going to be less worthwhile and they will still probably die if anyone with a gun notices they exist.
Sort of hopeful for DE but there are so many of these light assault(ish) units that are unlikely to be good. Wyches, bloodbrides (if a thing), wracks, hellions, beastmasters, mandrakes (they might not be thought of this way any more), the archons court.
alleus wrote: Emperor almighty.. people really need to relax. First people burned their Fantasy armies when Age of Sigmar was announced, and now they will sell their Marine armies because a new type of Marine was made?
I don't mind the fluff. They have even mentioned that some Chapters are actually sceptical and not sure what to think about these new Marines. I think this opens up for some nice progression within the Chapters themselves. Not to mention that the models themselves might just be the coolest minis that GW has ever produced, just from these first few glimpses I am pretty much sold.
I might be a simple man; I see a model I like, that is fun to play with, and I'm a happy camper. Stop treating plastic figures like the end of the world, and just relax.
Oh how I wish we were all so enlightened as this simple, simple man.
SnotlingPimpWagon wrote: Whatever dude, you're being a bit of a drama queen, IMHO Besides this doesn't make sense, because numarines army is not structured that way, they are not made up from vets and they don't have all that access to Xenos weapons. And in no way they're shown as the ones, seeking to be as distinct as possible from each other:
"They're basic troops are the elites of other chapters. They were allowed to have more advanced and even use new technology or captured xenos tech. Now all of that unique aspect is gone. Probably going to even be replaced by numarines eventually with even more advanced "
*facepalm* The chapters give their best men to the deathwatch. What happens when all the chapters are nu-marines? They give nu-marines. Since you need to support the new larger space marines that means developing or giving existing gear to the DW that fits the nu-marines and not the old. Eventually over the course of years nu-marines will replace every marine model everywhere in real life. hastings himself the one and only one of the most accurate rumor people even confirmed the old marines will not be getting any new releases or they would be extremely rare. It's over. A slow putting down the dog over. Stop being in denial and buy nu-marines or get out of the way.
Hi there I'm custodes and I crap all over your rant about "astartes" being your elite marines. As my emporer genesede DNA makes me literally better then You could ever hope to be. Furthermore greyknights > deathwatch. Grey knights are the best of the best AND psychic.
SnotlingPimpWagon wrote: Whatever dude, you're being a bit of a drama queen, IMHO Besides this doesn't make sense, because numarines army is not structured that way, they are not made up from vets and they don't have all that access to Xenos weapons. And in no way they're shown as the ones, seeking to be as distinct as possible from each other:
"They're basic troops are the elites of other chapters. They were allowed to have more advanced and even use new technology or captured xenos tech. Now all of that unique aspect is gone. Probably going to even be replaced by numarines eventually with even more advanced "
*facepalm* The chapters give their best men to the deathwatch. What happens when all the chapters are nu-marines? They give nu-marines. Since you need to support the new larger space marines that means developing or giving existing gear to the DW that fits the nu-marines and not the old. Eventually over the course of years nu-marines will replace every marine model everywhere in real life. hastings himself the one and only one of the most accurate rumor people even confirmed the old marines will not be getting any new releases or they would be extremely rare. It's over. A slow putting down the dog over. Stop being in denial and buy nu-marines or get out of the way.
Hi there I'm custodes and I crap all over your rant about "astartes" being your elite marines. As my emporer genesede DNA makes me literally better the. You could ever hope to be. Furthermore greyknights > deathwatch. Grey knights are the best of the best AND psychic.
Custodes are around since the beginning of the fluff and have always been set as a standard above Space Marines to match their role as Praetorian Guard. They weren't shoehorned in because of "reasons".
Inb4 Primaris Grey Knights because they still need to be Extra special.
Yeah but Custodes used to be so good they sat around defending the Emperor. They weren't out there in mass numbers directly replacing space marines. As a matter of fact there were so few they were basically unique individuals not a real army.
They are also distinct enough and will be around after old marines are gone. Old marines are just out dated. Plain up. Though who knows. Maybe Gulliman will get around to making super cutodes. Hahaha.
Inevitable_Faith wrote: I'm really worried about my Wyches this edition. I was really hoping they'd have a role to play in a DE army this time around. I know they weren't favoured in 7th but I still ran them and to be honest I had pretty decent success with them but I mostly ran them as a tarpit unit. That 4++ in CC really locked down elite opponents with few attacks. Now that everyone can choose to exit combat I started to fear for their viability as they can't even tarpit anymore but after seeing the Tau rules for getting to shoot after fleeing I'm really wondering how they'll be able to compete.
Fingers crossed that GW and the playtesters have found fun and unique ways to make Wyches a viable choice but I'll admit this is the first time I've been worried about the balance of 8th (not 8th as a whole, just 8th in regards to my favourite unit), just gotta be patient and see what it's like when it launches now I suppose.
Many things could have happened but unfortunately wyches are likely to be troops level light assault infantry (like wracks except they were elites for... reasons). Massed haywire could make a return but without rending (which its hard to see them getting) they are going to bounce on anything vaguely tough. As you say tarpitting is going to be less worthwhile and they will still probably die if anyone with a gun notices they exist.
Sort of hopeful for DE but there are so many of these light assault(ish) units that are unlikely to be good. Wyches, bloodbrides (if a thing), wracks, hellions, beastmasters, mandrakes (they might not be thought of this way any more), the archons court.
I doubt Wyches will get massed Haywire back, even if they did it wouldn't help since they'll likely still use the "only one model may use a grenade in CC" rule which kills that style of Wych play. To be honest I don't want Wyches to be Haywire delivery systems anyways, that's not really how they're represented in the fluff. Wyches got a buff with the new damage chart though as they now wound T5 on a 5+ and they can hurt anything on a 6 so there is that. I'm very curious to see what they do with combat drugs as that could maybe make them useful, I just hope they don't keep the current random table, there's too many useless drugs on there and random drugs put a level of unpredictability on a unit that needed every advantage it could get in 7th. Actually one way they could maybe help Wyches is with a couple rules, one that lets them always strike first in combat like the Daemonettes or Banshees got and another, maybe call it "inescapable speed" or something, make it so in CC Wyches are so good at keeping pace with their opponent and hounding them that your opponent may not choose to disengage if he's in CC with them. I picture Wyches running alongside and jumping on opponents who are trying to flee, hitching a ride on a suit as he tries to jump away only to have him fall back to earth with a Wych crawling on his back. That would allow Wyches to fill a role as tarpitt CC unit that most units in the game can't since units can disengage now. I'm fine with Wyches attacks hitting very weak, maybe bump up their attacks characteristic so it's a damage by volume thing. Death by a thousand cuts, seems like a very fluffy way for Wyches to kill things.
I'm still hopeful they'll have a place, most of what I've seen for 8th has me very excited, just the Tau stuff today had me worried Tau will be my hard counter again this edition. Balance we won't know until a few weeks after 8th launches but I've got my fingers crossed it'll be significantly better than 7th balance. It can't honestly get much worse now can it?
Inevitable_Faith wrote: I'm really worried about my Wyches this edition. I was really hoping they'd have a role to play in a DE army this time around. I know they weren't favoured in 7th but I still ran them and to be honest I had pretty decent success with them but I mostly ran them as a tarpit unit. That 4++ in CC really locked down elite opponents with few attacks. Now that everyone can choose to exit combat I started to fear for their viability as they can't even tarpit anymore but after seeing the Tau rules for getting to shoot after fleeing I'm really wondering how they'll be able to compete.
Fingers crossed that GW and the playtesters have found fun and unique ways to make Wyches a viable choice but I'll admit this is the first time I've been worried about the balance of 8th (not 8th as a whole, just 8th in regards to my favourite unit), just gotta be patient and see what it's like when it launches now I suppose.
Many things could have happened but unfortunately wyches are likely to be troops level light assault infantry (like wracks except they were elites for... reasons). Massed haywire could make a return but without rending (which its hard to see them getting) they are going to bounce on anything vaguely tough. As you say tarpitting is going to be less worthwhile and they will still probably die if anyone with a gun notices they exist.
Sort of hopeful for DE but there are so many of these light assault(ish) units that are unlikely to be good. Wyches, bloodbrides (if a thing), wracks, hellions, beastmasters, mandrakes (they might not be thought of this way any more), the archons court.
.
You have no idea what any of these things do anymore. For all you know wyches are rend -14 base with 6 wounds and a -3 save(i.e. rend -6 to get them off of 2+). 8th is a whole new game and while things may still be really strong or really weak, what they did in 7th isn't really a useful indicator.
Maybe Guiliman will make Sisters of Battle Primaris too.
HERESY!
* Guilimant get melta-to-the-face and die *
* Sisters of Battle close the Cicatrix Maledictum *
Okay back to normal now!
They clearly said in the article that they are called the T'au now, not the Tau. Which is what makes me cri every time.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gamgee wrote: Yeah but Custodes used to be so good they sat around defending the Emperor. They weren't out there in mass numbers directly replacing space marines. As a matter of fact there were so few they were basically unique individuals not a real army.
They are also distinct enough and will be around after old marines are gone. Old marines are just out dated. Plain up. Though who knows. Maybe Gulliman will get around to making super cutodes. Hahaha.
Too much fools being too hopeful in this thread.
Okay Gamgee, you have made your point. You don't like the new marines.
The storm surge can fall back and still fire at full effect. Yep, great. Make Tau even harder to kill in CC by making it not easy to catch them and not giving them any drawbacks for it.
I said pages ago that the stratagems shown don't look that great when it comes to dealing with the huge problem units, and the storm surge is just that. It's all well and good brining a nice fluffy well rounded force and getting command points for it. Whoopee, you can re roll the failed charge and get in to combat with the storm surge that has been absolutely decimating your whole army almost single handily. Oh wait, that CP you just used to make the charge successful, yeah... The storm surge just ignored that and walked away, sorry buddy.
Tau needed to be hit with an overwhelmingly huge nerf bat along with Eldar, and there has been absolutely nothing shown so far that looks like that has happened. The AM and chaos articles have not pointed to anything anywhere near as powerful and spammable as what those two armies can bring. Heaven knows what the riptide and ghost keels are going to be capable of, and pointing back to Eldar, what the bloody wraith knight will be able to do.
The absolutely only saving grace could be their point values, and it needs to be so high that you are going to struggle to bring two in a 2000 pt games with your other requirements.
Gamgee wrote: Yeah but Custodes used to be so good they sat around defending the Emperor. They weren't out there in mass numbers directly replacing space marines. As a matter of fact there were so few they were basically unique individuals not a real army.
They are also distinct enough and will be around after old marines are gone. Old marines are just out dated. Plain up. Though who knows. Maybe Gulliman will get around to making super cutodes. Hahaha.
Too much fools being too hopeful in this thread.
So far that last sentence seems to apply far more to you than anyone else. Are you going to be like this when they release a new Tau tank too? 'Oh boohoo they came out with a new thing, all of my old things are completely useless now boohoo.'
Who cares if they do invalidate space marines? Space marine models were boring anyway, these are way better.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: The absolutely only saving grace could be their point values, and it needs to be so high that you are going to struggle to bring two in a 2000 pt games with your other requirements.
I think you're pretty close here. I expect the Stormsurge to be feth off expensive.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: The absolutely only saving grace could be their point values, and it needs to be so high that you are going to struggle to bring two in a 2000 pt games with your other requirements.
I think you're pretty close here. I expect the Stormsurge to be feth off expensive.
I was just about to say this, you will be paying for that giant gak!
endlesswaltz123 wrote: The storm surge can fall back and still fire at full effect. Yep, great. Make Tau even harder to kill in CC by making it not easy to catch them and not giving them any drawbacks for it.
I said pages ago that the stratagems shown don't look that great when it comes to dealing with the huge problem units, and the storm surge is just that. It's all well and good brining a nice fluffy well rounded force and getting command points for it. Whoopee, you can re roll the failed charge and get in to combat with the storm surge that has been absolutely decimating your whole army almost single handily. Oh wait, that CP you just used to make the charge successful, yeah... The storm surge just ignored that and walked away, sorry buddy.
Tau needed to be hit with an overwhelmingly huge nerf bat along with Eldar, and there has been absolutely nothing shown so far that looks like that has happened. The AM and chaos articles have not pointed to anything anywhere near as powerful and spammable as what those two armies can bring. Heaven knows what the riptide and ghost keels are going to be capable of.
The absolutely only saving grace could be their point values, and it needs to be so high that you are going to struggle to bring two in a 2000 pt games with your other requirements.
You're looking at 8th as if it is 7th with some stank on it. It's an entirely new game, it doesn't matter what the models did before, comparing them is apples and oranges. The stormsurge could be the worst model in the game now, you don't know.
For all we know Dark Eldar and Blood Angels are the big cheese armies now.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: The storm surge can fall back and still fire at full effect. Yep, great. Make Tau even harder to kill in CC by making it not easy to catch them and not giving them any drawbacks for it.
I said pages ago that the stratagems shown don't look that great when it comes to dealing with the huge problem units, and the storm surge is just that. It's all well and good brining a nice fluffy well rounded force and getting command points for it. Whoopee, you can re roll the failed charge and get in to combat with the storm surge that has been absolutely decimating your whole army almost single handily. Oh wait, that CP you just used to make the charge successful, yeah... The storm surge just ignored that and walked away, sorry buddy.
Tau needed to be hit with an overwhelmingly huge nerf bat along with Eldar, and there has been absolutely nothing shown so far that looks like that has happened. The AM and chaos articles have not pointed to anything anywhere near as powerful and spammable as what those two armies can bring. Heaven knows what the riptide and ghost keels are going to be capable of.
The absolutely only saving grace could be their point values, and it needs to be so high that you are going to struggle to bring two in a 2000 pt games with your other requirements.
You're looking at 8th as if it is 7th with some stank on it. It's an entirely new game, it doesn't matter what the models did before, comparing them is apples and oranges. The stormsurge could be the worst model in the game now, you don't know.
For all we know Dark Eldar and Blood Angels are the big cheese armies now.
I absolutely understand the point you are making totally. It's just with the information we already have, and with the information just given, it's still hard to figure out the golden goose for all armies when it comes to dealing with problem units like the storm surge will undoubtedly continue to be. That things going to have close to 20 wounds as well I imagine, given the details we have on other units.
I think my main issue with the new rules will actually be the frontline guys being involved. They most certainly have their favourite armies, and Tau is one of them, Eldar another.... I will wait to reserve full judgement on whether I believe there to be any bias on their part till the game comes out and we have a full picture of the rules, the storm surge being able to retreat from combat with no penalty is leaving a sour taste currently though.
I'm also convinced that the nu-marines will eventually phase out the current range, which is a net positive in my book.
People can gradually replace their units if they want to and the old marines will keep being useful for at least one more edition, so you don't have to burn everything in resentment.
Yes, they had to come up with a weird fluff reason for the new marines to exist in the first place, but that's a minor issue, as far as I'm concerned.
Replacing all at once would have conjured up a shitstorm GW seems to have avoided this time (in contrast to the way they handled WHFB).
alleus wrote: Emperor almighty.. people really need to relax. First people burned their Fantasy armies when Age of Sigmar was announced, and now they will sell their Marine armies because a new type of Marine was made?
I don't mind the fluff. They have even mentioned that some Chapters are actually sceptical and not sure what to think about these new Marines. I think this opens up for some nice progression within the Chapters themselves. Not to mention that the models themselves might just be the coolest minis that GW has ever produced, just from these first few glimpses I am pretty much sold.
I might be a simple man; I see a model I like, that is fun to play with, and I'm a happy camper. Stop treating plastic figures like the end of the world, and just relax.
Well said.
I like them, and may even pick up a box, but presently I'm going to stick to my standard marine models. I prefer the standard marine, and like their look, plus I'm a Blood Angels player and most of my chapter/home world of Baal is on the wrong side of the giant warp storm spanning the galaxy at present.
I've still got half a Tactical Squad (5 models), a 5 man Assault Squad, 4 more Scouts, at least 5 to 10 more Death Company, plus some possible Terminators and a Drop Pod, plus a Death Company Dreadnought and eventually a Storm Raven.
This information doesn't change my army or my plans in the slightest. If it really bothers you, may I suggest not taking the hobby so seriously and/or personally.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: Don't worry they are just new models and we will be adding more and slowly replacing the SM boxes over the next couple of years to bring it in line with the new true scale models"
They would never say that. You don't tell everyone you're going to replace your most popular line 'eventually'. Sales would dry up. They want people to keep buying regular Marines.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: Don't worry they are just new models and we will be adding more and slowly replacing the SM boxes over the next couple of years to bring it in line with the new true scale models"
They would never say that. You don't tell everyone you're going to replace your most popular line 'eventually'. Sales would dry up. They want people to keep buying regular Marines.
Yeah I know... but a little honesty goes a long way where I work. I guess it's just different approaches.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: The storm surge can fall back and still fire at full effect. Yep, great. Make Tau even harder to kill in CC by making it not easy to catch them and not giving them any drawbacks for it.
I said pages ago that the stratagems shown don't look that great when it comes to dealing with the huge problem units, and the storm surge is just that. It's all well and good brining a nice fluffy well rounded force and getting command points for it. Whoopee, you can re roll the failed charge and get in to combat with the storm surge that has been absolutely decimating your whole army almost single handily. Oh wait, that CP you just used to make the charge successful, yeah... The storm surge just ignored that and walked away, sorry buddy.
Tau needed to be hit with an overwhelmingly huge nerf bat along with Eldar, and there has been absolutely nothing shown so far that looks like that has happened. The AM and chaos articles have not pointed to anything anywhere near as powerful and spammable as what those two armies can bring. Heaven knows what the riptide and ghost keels are going to be capable of.
The absolutely only saving grace could be their point values, and it needs to be so high that you are going to struggle to bring two in a 2000 pt games with your other requirements.
You're looking at 8th as if it is 7th with some stank on it. It's an entirely new game, it doesn't matter what the models did before, comparing them is apples and oranges. The stormsurge could be the worst model in the game now, you don't know.
For all we know Dark Eldar and Blood Angels are the big cheese armies now.
I absolutely understand the point you are making totally. It's just with the information we already have, and with the information just given, it's still hard to figure out the golden goose for all armies when it comes to dealing with problem units like the storm surge will undoubtedly continue to be. That things going to have close to 20 wounds as well I imagine, given the details we have on other units.
I think my main issue with the new rules will actually be the frontline guys being involved. They most certainly have their favourite armies, and Tau is one of them, Eldar another.... I will wait to reserve full judgement on whether I believe there to be any bias on their part till the game comes out and we have a full picture of the rules, the storm surge being able to retreat from combat with no penalty is leaving a sour taste currently though.
You say you understand my point and then you continue to talk about the stormsurge as a 'problem unit' despite knowing less than 50% of it's rules. It could have 2 wounds and a 6+ save. How do you know it will be difficult to deal with? How do you know other armies will NEED a golden goose to deal with it? How do you know it doesn't suck worse than vespids do now? you don't. And you won't for a solid month after 8th drops.
As for the frontline guys, Frankie's favorite army is Dark Eldar and Reece's is Orks/Astra Militarum.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: The storm surge can fall back and still fire at full effect. Yep, great. Make Tau even harder to kill in CC by making it not easy to catch them and not giving them any drawbacks for it.
I said pages ago that the stratagems shown don't look that great when it comes to dealing with the huge problem units, and the storm surge is just that. It's all well and good brining a nice fluffy well rounded force and getting command points for it. Whoopee, you can re roll the failed charge and get in to combat with the storm surge that has been absolutely decimating your whole army almost single handily. Oh wait, that CP you just used to make the charge successful, yeah... The storm surge just ignored that and walked away, sorry buddy.
Tau needed to be hit with an overwhelmingly huge nerf bat along with Eldar, and there has been absolutely nothing shown so far that looks like that has happened. The AM and chaos articles have not pointed to anything anywhere near as powerful and spammable as what those two armies can bring. Heaven knows what the riptide and ghost keels are going to be capable of.
The absolutely only saving grace could be their point values, and it needs to be so high that you are going to struggle to bring two in a 2000 pt games with your other requirements.
You're looking at 8th as if it is 7th with some stank on it. It's an entirely new game, it doesn't matter what the models did before, comparing them is apples and oranges. The stormsurge could be the worst model in the game now, you don't know.
For all we know Dark Eldar and Blood Angels are the big cheese armies now.
I absolutely understand the point you are making totally. It's just with the information we already have, and with the information just given, it's still hard to figure out the golden goose for all armies when it comes to dealing with problem units like the storm surge will undoubtedly continue to be. That things going to have close to 20 wounds as well I imagine, given the details we have on other units.
I think my main issue with the new rules will actually be the frontline guys being involved. They most certainly have their favourite armies, and Tau is one of them, Eldar another.... I will wait to reserve full judgement on whether I believe there to be any bias on their part till the game comes out and we have a full picture of the rules, the storm surge being able to retreat from combat with no penalty is leaving a sour taste currently though.
You say you understand my point and then you continue to talk about the stormsurge as a 'problem unit' despite knowing less than 50% of it's rules. It could have 2 wounds and a 6+ save. How do you know it will be difficult to deal with? How do you know other armies will NEED a golden goose to deal with it? How do you know it doesn't suck worse than vespids do now? you don't. And you won't for a solid month after 8th drops.
As for the frontline guys, Frankie's favorite army is Dark Eldar and Reece's is Orks/Astra Militarum.
Come on, you know it will have a decent amount of wounds, Knights are going to have over 20, the storm surge will be around that number. And it would be absurd for it to have a 6+ save. You don't need to wait for the rules to be guessing some things.
Like I said before, the saving grace will be it's point cost, or that lower tier armies will no longer be lower tier as you pointed out and will challenge. I just can't see how currently. To be fair, we need to know a lot more about melee, namely the weapons and what they can do, still though, melee is only good if you can get to the damn thing you are trying to take out.
Anyway, my main issue is the second paragraph in my first post. They are trying to award balanced armies, what good will that do if uber units can ignore those awards, or can just plainly pump out so much damage that there will be little the CP's can be given to or they just don't seem worth it. Basically, I can't see the typical power gaming arms race NOT happening from the current rules we have been given, even though there is claims from the designers and testers that it will not happen/every unit will have a purpose and balanced armies will be able to compete.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: Don't worry they are just new models and we will be adding more and slowly replacing the SM boxes over the next couple of years to bring it in line with the new true scale models"
They would never say that. You don't tell everyone you're going to replace your most popular line 'eventually'. Sales would dry up. They want people to keep buying regular Marines.
Yeah I know... but a little honesty goes a long way where I work. I guess it's just different approaches.
Well not in sales really. As it is them being truthfull with the 8th ed is likely gamble as it is. Wouldn't be surprised if 40k sales have stalled a lot as people wait for new ed. They are banking it pays back in more sales in long run when it gets released.
since we saw im with a power sword and bolt pistol..
Depends on whether or not Game Workshop is keeping with the traditions and markings they they've laid down in Insignium Astartes and their own Studio armies. In the debut video for the Primaris Space Marines, there's a shot or two of what looks to be a squad or two of Space Marines. The squad looks like it's made up of four Primaris Marines and one Primaris Marine that has a red helmet, all armed with bolters. Going by Insignium Astartes and GW's current Studio armies, the red helmeted Primaris Marine should be the Sergeant. The Primaris Marine that has the white-red-white livery running down his helmet and is armed with the bolt pistol and power sword might be a character of some kind (maybe akain to the Space Marine Commander).
White line down the middle of a red helmet has traditionally been used to define a veteran sergeant over a normal sergeant.
Veteran of what, though? If these guys are brand spanking new... Did he go through more combat drills than the other ones?
one possible explanation is that the timeline was moved on a number of years...
endlesswaltz123 wrote: The storm surge can fall back and still fire at full effect. Yep, great. Make Tau even harder to kill in CC by making it not easy to catch them and not giving them any drawbacks for it.
I said pages ago that the stratagems shown don't look that great when it comes to dealing with the huge problem units, and the storm surge is just that. It's all well and good brining a nice fluffy well rounded force and getting command points for it. Whoopee, you can re roll the failed charge and get in to combat with the storm surge that has been absolutely decimating your whole army almost single handily. Oh wait, that CP you just used to make the charge successful, yeah... The storm surge just ignored that and walked away, sorry buddy.
Tau needed to be hit with an overwhelmingly huge nerf bat along with Eldar, and there has been absolutely nothing shown so far that looks like that has happened. The AM and chaos articles have not pointed to anything anywhere near as powerful and spammable as what those two armies can bring. Heaven knows what the riptide and ghost keels are going to be capable of.
The absolutely only saving grace could be their point values, and it needs to be so high that you are going to struggle to bring two in a 2000 pt games with your other requirements.
You're looking at 8th as if it is 7th with some stank on it. It's an entirely new game, it doesn't matter what the models did before, comparing them is apples and oranges. The stormsurge could be the worst model in the game now, you don't know.
For all we know Dark Eldar and Blood Angels are the big cheese armies now.
I absolutely understand the point you are making totally. It's just with the information we already have, and with the information just given, it's still hard to figure out the golden goose for all armies when it comes to dealing with problem units like the storm surge will undoubtedly continue to be. That things going to have close to 20 wounds as well I imagine, given the details we have on other units.
I think my main issue with the new rules will actually be the frontline guys being involved. They most certainly have their favourite armies, and Tau is one of them, Eldar another.... I will wait to reserve full judgement on whether I believe there to be any bias on their part till the game comes out and we have a full picture of the rules, the storm surge being able to retreat from combat with no penalty is leaving a sour taste currently though.
You say you understand my point and then you continue to talk about the stormsurge as a 'problem unit' despite knowing less than 50% of it's rules. It could have 2 wounds and a 6+ save. How do you know it will be difficult to deal with? How do you know other armies will NEED a golden goose to deal with it? How do you know it doesn't suck worse than vespids do now? you don't. And you won't for a solid month after 8th drops.
As for the frontline guys, Frankie's favorite army is Dark Eldar and Reece's is Orks/Astra Militarum.
Your common sense will be lost in this thread, like tears in rain.
since we saw im with a power sword and bolt pistol..
Depends on whether or not Game Workshop is keeping with the traditions and markings they they've laid down in Insignium Astartes and their own Studio armies. In the debut video for the Primaris Space Marines, there's a shot or two of what looks to be a squad or two of Space Marines. The squad looks like it's made up of four Primaris Marines and one Primaris Marine that has a red helmet, all armed with bolters. Going by Insignium Astartes and GW's current Studio armies, the red helmeted Primaris Marine should be the Sergeant. The Primaris Marine that has the white-red-white livery running down his helmet and is armed with the bolt pistol and power sword might be a character of some kind (maybe akain to the Space Marine Commander).
White line down the middle of a red helmet has traditionally been used to define a veteran sergeant over a normal sergeant.
Veteran of what, though? If these guys are brand spanking new... Did he go through more combat drills than the other ones?
one possible explanation is that the timeline was moved on a number of years...
No idea to be honest. The FAQ says they are some sort of commander role in the new marines. Just saying, that a white line down the middle of a sergeant helmet differentiates normal sergeants from veteran sergeants. Historically in the UM command structure anyway.
Maybe some of the new marines are attack of the cloned and have been bred/made/grown with command traits built in?
Vorian wrote: [Your common sense will be lost in this thread, like tears in rain.
Anybody claiming stormsurge might have 2 wounds and 6+ save doesn't really have common sense.
You know what common sense can be used to? Accurately extrapolate rules and their impact from imperfect information. People have been doing that for years. As it is you could already play fairly accurate game of 8th ed if you wanted to put effort to.
ClockworkZion wrote: Still missing the Sergeant's wargear [spoiler]since we saw im with a power sword and bolt pistol..
Depends on whether or not Game Workshop is keeping with the traditions and markings they they've laid down in Insignium Astartes and their own Studio armies. In the debut video for the Primaris Space Marines, there's a shot or two of what looks to be a squad or two of Space Marines. The squad looks like it's made up of four Primaris Marines and one Primaris Marine that has a red helmet, all armed with bolters. Going by Insignium Astartes and GW's current Studio armies, the red helmeted Primaris Marine should be the Sergeant. The Primaris Marine that has the white-red-white livery running down his helmet and is armed with the bolt pistol and power sword might be a character of some kind (maybe akain to the Space Marine Commander).
White line down the middle of a red helmet has traditionally been used to define a veteran sergeant over a normal sergeant.
Veteran of what, though? If these guys are brand spanking new... Did he go through more combat drills than the other ones?
one possible explanation is that the timeline was moved on a number of years...
That has to be the case, especially since Cawl said in the one of the Gathering Storm books that he had abandoned the project (now revealed to be the Primaris Marines) sometime during the Scouring.
So some time would had to have passed for Cawl to construct the machines required to create the Primaris Marines and their equipment.
Oh, also that giant bloody warp tear across the Galaxy would indicate a decent passing of time, too. Lol.
ClockworkZion wrote: Still missing the Sergeant's wargear [spoiler]since we saw im with a power sword and bolt pistol..
Depends on whether or not Game Workshop is keeping with the traditions and markings they they've laid down in Insignium Astartes and their own Studio armies. In the debut video for the Primaris Space Marines, there's a shot or two of what looks to be a squad or two of Space Marines. The squad looks like it's made up of four Primaris Marines and one Primaris Marine that has a red helmet, all armed with bolters. Going by Insignium Astartes and GW's current Studio armies, the red helmeted Primaris Marine should be the Sergeant. The Primaris Marine that has the white-red-white livery running down his helmet and is armed with the bolt pistol and power sword might be a character of some kind (maybe akain to the Space Marine Commander).
White line down the middle of a red helmet has traditionally been used to define a veteran sergeant over a normal sergeant.
Veteran of what, though? If these guys are brand spanking new... Did he go through more combat drills than the other ones?
one possible explanation is that the timeline was moved on a number of years...
That has to be the case, especially since Cawl said in the one of the Gathering Storm books that he had abandoned the project (now revealed to be the Primaris Marines) sometime during the Scouring.
So some time would had to have passed for Cawl to construct the machines required to create the Primaris Marines and their equipment.
Oh, also that giant bloody warp tear across the Galaxy would indicate a decent passing of time, too. Lol.
Or GW pushed other events back in time so it's now 999 but they got started in 900.
Or GW ignores numbers in logistics and claim they were created within months. Numbers been never GW's strong point.
And warp tear btw could appear without much time. It's basically warp breaking into real world. It's not like it has to move linearly from eye of terror at sublight speed or something. It can manifest itself in everywhere simultaneously.
To be honest the distances between the star systems in 40k (from our understanding of the galaxy) is so vast and warp travel so odd that time in 40k is probably meaningless anyhoo XD
Latro_ wrote: To be honest the distances between the star systems in 40k (from our understanding of the galaxy) is so vast and warp travel so odd that time in 40k is probably meaningless anyhoo XD
It's totally possible (as I am to believe) that due to the warp RG could be on a ship, travel through he warp and meet his past self back before the heresy started. It's just all a bit bonkers.
My thoughts for the new marines is that it helps GW stop writing themselves into a corner with the whole "oh, we just found this STC under the couch" thing. New marines created now, with a tech priest dominus and Primarch working together, means that we can expect to see genuinely new technology from the Imperium - they no longer have to pretend units always existed, and have an excuse to make new models. I suspect that's the main driver behind this change - they could have easily just said these new marines were bigger to more accurately represent the background if they'd wanted to, but instead have done this. As such, I'm not expecting the old marines to be phased out for a good long while (if ever), but I'm also not expecting them to get many more releases because, well, what can they really still make for them? Beyond updating old sculpts, and marines are probably the army which least needs that, they've already got a fully fledged roster with decades of backstory. Bear in mind that the old marines will always be around with the way they've done this, both due to the Heresy and from the fact that chaos doesn't have access to this new technology; I really do feel this is just a way that they can keep selling new Imperium marine models, as well as having the creative freedom with Chaos they've always had (this tank was made from 100% tech heresy, etc). Now, whether you think it's a good thing that the Imperium is no longer a crumbling empire, but one which can rebuild, is another issue entirely.
As for the Tau (sorry, "T'au") article, people are freaking out over nothing. The vast majority of their units are completely fine, it's just a choice few which are too good. When, for example, did you last see Vespids, Hammerheads, Razorsharks, Pathfinders, Ethereals, etc? Probably not since at least 6e I'd imagine, if even then. We have no idea how expensive these units they're talking about will be - Stormsurge's power mostly comes from being slightly undercosted; if they raise the points by 100 in the current rules, it probably wouldn't see any play. Likewise, the majority of the Riptide's current power comes from the reactor rules, combined with broken MC rules where they could take at most 1 wound from any non-D shot. On the grounds that their main strength was durability which is going to be dramatically different in 8e due to the to wound chart, armour modifiers and multiple damage per shot, there's really no telling how good they'll be. For instance, say that powerfists are now AP-3, S8, D6 damage - that alone would mean that if a unit of terminators got the charge on a T6 2+/5++ Riptide (if it also doesn't change), they will smash it into fine dust - you're looking at an average of more than 1 wound per attack. Bear in mind that Tau only really have 2 good phases - movement and shooting; they miss the psychic phase due to having no psykers, they don't want to charge and they really don't want to be in combat. Eldar have always been far worse in that regard.
The real question will come down to how decisive combat is in 8e, and we won't know that for sure until we have all the related rules: can we assault from reserves, can you assault off deep strike, can you do first turn charges, are there extra bonuses for charging, how impactful is hitting on a 3+ instead of usually a 4+ for most units, etc. There's a lot which might make combat either very good, or useless - for example, if you can charge from a deep strike, and deep strike itself becomes more reliable, then terminators are suddenly going to be borderline broken. On the other hand, if you strike last charging into terrain, combat might be dead. We simply don't have enough information to judge.
GW kills the hype for the new edition with their decision to slowly but surely invalidate people's entire range of marines. GW don't have shelf space for both old and new and when vehicles change too it will be over for the old stuff..
GW keeps making up excuses incl. fluff excuses to invalidate stuff. Unfortunately they don't know how to grow the player base or make existing players buy mpre stuff so they are killing rain forests to invalidate thousands of pages published and printed every two years and now they want to incalidate the SM range...
The new ones magically have better stats too..
Vorian wrote: [Your common sense will be lost in this thread, like tears in rain.
Anybody claiming stormsurge might have 2 wounds and 6+ save doesn't really have common sense.
You know what common sense can be used to? Accurately extrapolate rules and their impact from imperfect information. People have been doing that for years. As it is you could already play fairly accurate game of 8th ed if you wanted to put effort to.
Latro_ wrote: To be honest the distances between the star systems in 40k (from our understanding of the galaxy) is so vast and warp travel so odd that time in 40k is probably meaningless anyhoo XD
It's totally possible (as I am to believe) that due to the warp RG could be on a ship, travel through he warp and meet his past self back before the heresy started. It's just all a bit bonkers.
I think from WD to travel 1 light year in 40k is 2-6 minutes via warp travel so lets say 3.5
milkyway is 100,000 light years in diameter
So to just travel half way should take 121 days
While you are in the warp time in realspace churns on slower i think the old WD said 1LY = about an hour so it'd seem like 125,000 days (or 342 years) has past,,,
ye mind starts to get nose bleeds, the more i think about the science of 40k the more my suspension of disbelief fades away and i just pretend to be an ork again waahahaaaaagghh
Vorian wrote: [Your common sense will be lost in this thread, like tears in rain.
Anybody claiming stormsurge might have 2 wounds and 6+ save doesn't really have common sense.
You know what common sense can be used to? Accurately extrapolate rules and their impact from imperfect information. People have been doing that for years. As it is you could already play fairly accurate game of 8th ed if you wanted to put effort to.
Thanks for proving my point.
It would be an awfully boring game, though; Primaris Marine Intercessors vs Thousand Sons. Without knowing what each squad's special ability does, and no access to any of the Stratagems. Thousand Sons would be a bit handicapped by only having one psychic power.
You want to know how I plan on dealing with a stormsurge?
Drop a squad of devastator marines out of a drop pod next to it before it can shoot. Drop 4x multimeltas + the Sergeant's Combimelta into it after disembarking, Hopefully within 12" of the thing.
Get one hit with the combimelta on 3+ (hopefully) at -4 save. Even with a 2+ save (I suspect it'll have a 3+ save and high toughness, the Riptide will likely have a 2+ and lower toughness to compensate) and in cover it's got a 5+ or 6+ save at that point. D6 wounds. Then average 2 more hits on 4+ with multimeltas, once again at 5+ or 6+ save, hopefully another D6 to 2D6 wounds, with the likely second D6 rolled with each, take the higher roll of the two. If that doesn't all but kill or outright cripple the stormsurge most of the time, I'll be genuinely surprised. That's just one squad shooting it. Put a few other long range shots into it an it'l likely be dead or degraded so much as to be a shadow of it's unwounded effectiveness.
I also seriously doubt it'll have 20+ wounds. Maybe 15 to 18 at most., with 18 being my guess. A wraithknight will likely be sporting 20 or so, and the Imperial Knight will be 21 or 22 max I'm willing to bet.
Most armies will be able to focus down a single big model, and I'm willing to bet Super Heavies will be points sinks in matched play. If a single Multimelta upgrade in a Tactical Squad is a TWENTY-SEVEN points, I can only imagine what the Super Heavies are going to cost to field.
In summary, don't panic guys. The sky isn't falling.
Just offering my thoughts once again. Take it easy.
Honestly, I'd prefer it if these "NuMarines" were simply existing and experienced adult Space Marines that have had further genetic manipulation and enhancements and upgraded gene-seed, rather than newly recruited Marines implanted at a young age with the upgraded geneseed. It would also explain why some "NuMarines" can be considered Veterans - because they truly are Veterans, having served for years as a regular Marine in their respective Chapters before being sent to Mars for upgrades. Chapters might be more willing to accept existing members of their Chapter who've been sent to Mars for upgrades than complete outsiders foisted upon them without their consent.
Is that even possible? Can you take an existing adult Marine and make further alterations to his gene-seed and body?
Red__Thirst wrote: You want to know how I plan on dealing with a stormsurge?
Drop a squad of devastator marines out of a drop pod next to it before it can shoot. Drop 4x multimeltas + the Sergeant's Combimelta into it after disembarking, Hopefully within 12" of the thing.
Get one hit with the combimelta on 3+ (hopefully) at -4 save. Even with a 2+ save (I suspect tit'll have a 3+ save and high toughness, the Riptide will likely have a 2+ and lower toughness to compensate) and in cover it's got a 5+ or 6+ save at that point. D6 wounds. Then average 2 more hits on 4+ with multimeltas, once again at 5+ or 6+ save, hopefully another D6 to 2D6 wounds, with the likely second D6 rolled with each, take the higher roll of the two. If that doesn't all but kill or outright cripple the stormsurge most of the time, I'll be genuinely surprised. That's just one squad shooting it. Put a few other long range shots into it an it'l likely be dead or degraded so much as to be a shadow of it's unwounded effectiveness.
I also seriously doubt it'll have 20+ wounds. Maybe 15 to 18 at most., with 18 being my guess. A wraithknight will likely be sporting 20 or so, and the Imperial Knight will be 21 or 22 max I'm willing to bet.
Most armies will be able to focus down a single big model, and I'm willing to bet Super Heavies will be points sinks in matched play. If a single Multimelta upgrade in a Tactical Squad is a TWENTY-SEVEN points, I can only imagine what the Super Heavies are going to cost to field.
In summary, don't panic guys. The sky isn't falling.
Just offering my thoughts once again. Take it easy.
GW kills the hype for the new edition with their decision to slowly but surely invalidate people's entire range of marines. GW don't have shelf space for both old and new and when vehicles change too it will be over for the old stuff..
GW keeps making up excuses incl. fluff excuses to invalidate stuff. Unfortunately they don't know how to grow the player base or make existing players buy mpre stuff so they are killing rain forests to invalidate thousands of pages published and printed every two years and now they want to incalidate the SM range...
The new ones magically have better stats too..
Nothing innovative about GW any more...
The strange thing is, GW said that they are NOT invalidating regular Space Marines, neither fluff wise nor rules wise. Not slowly nor fast. In fact the rules preview showed that they have different tactical uses than regular Marines. That is why GW posted their Pri-Marine FAQ.
GW kills the hype for the new edition with their decision to slowly but surely invalidate people's entire range of marines. GW don't have shelf space for both old and new and when vehicles change too it will be over for the old stuff..
GW keeps making up excuses incl. fluff excuses to invalidate stuff. Unfortunately they don't know how to grow the player base or make existing players buy mpre stuff so they are killing rain forests to invalidate thousands of pages published and printed every two years and now they want to incalidate the SM range...
The new ones magically have better stats too..
Nothing innovative about GW any more...
The strange thing is, GW said that they are NOT invalidating regular Space Marines, neither fluff wise nor rules wise. Not slowly nor fast. In fact the rules preview showed that they have different tactical uses than regular Marines. That is why GW posted their Pri-Marine FAQ.
Nothing will stop people getting angry over stuff they've completely made up from nothing and have no evidence for.
Vorian wrote: [Your common sense will be lost in this thread, like tears in rain.
Anybody claiming stormsurge might have 2 wounds and 6+ save doesn't really have common sense.
You know what common sense can be used to? Accurately extrapolate rules and their impact from imperfect information. People have been doing that for years. As it is you could already play fairly accurate game of 8th ed if you wanted to put effort to.
Thanks for proving my point.
Better to have your "lack of common sense" than pretend everything is all fine and rosy and nothing to worry about when evidence points there being something to worry about.
Sure one can be like ostrich but you know what? They don't get any protection from that. They just get eaten.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Seneca wrote: The strange thing is, GW said that they are NOT invalidating regular Space Marines, neither fluff wise nor rules wise. Not slowly nor fast. In fact the rules preview showed that they have different tactical uses than regular Marines. That is why GW posted their Pri-Marine FAQ.
You really think they would say "oh btw we will stop all sales and support of old marines in 5 years"?-)
Really? You think they would say anything that even MIGHT cost them sales?
Red__Thirst wrote: You want to know how I plan on dealing with a stormsurge?
Drop a squad of devastator marines out of a drop pod next to it before it can shoot. Drop 4x multimeltas + the Sergeant's Combimelta into it after disembarking, Hopefully within 12" of the thing.
Get one hit with the combimelta on 3+ (hopefully) at -4 save. Even with a 2+ save (I suspect tit'll have a 3+ save and high toughness, the Riptide will likely have a 2+ and lower toughness to compensate) and in cover it's got a 5+ or 6+ save at that point. D6 wounds. Then average 2 more hits on 4+ with multimeltas, once again at 5+ or 6+ save, hopefully another D6 to 2D6 wounds, with the likely second D6 rolled with each, take the higher roll of the two. If that doesn't all but kill or outright cripple the stormsurge most of the time, I'll be genuinely surprised. That's just one squad shooting it. Put a few other long range shots into it an it'l likely be dead or degraded so much as to be a shadow of it's unwounded effectiveness.
I also seriously doubt it'll have 20+ wounds. Maybe 15 to 18 at most., with 18 being my guess. A wraithknight will likely be sporting 20 or so, and the Imperial Knight will be 21 or 22 max I'm willing to bet.
Most armies will be able to focus down a single big model, and I'm willing to bet Super Heavies will be points sinks in matched play. If a single Multimelta upgrade in a Tactical Squad is a TWENTY-SEVEN points, I can only imagine what the Super Heavies are going to cost to field.
In summary, don't panic guys. The sky isn't falling.
Just offering my thoughts once again. Take it easy.
Dakkajet or two? Push a Gork/Morkanaught at it, with some MANZ inside? Or face hug it with a Stompa? Flashgitz? Ram it with a red paint job battlewagon, with Flashgitz riding in it?
All the above?
It's a brave new world. Let's see what comes shall we?
This thread is honestly brilliant, the official Chicken Licken thread
We had this when AoS dropped, loads of people stomping feet and throwing teddies, threatening to bin minis. I think I messaged 3 people that were loudly proclaiming that they were giving away all their stuff ( I offered to pay for postage) and it was all over dramatic attention seeking.
Killing hype and killing rain forests
My other favorite comment is that someone could extrapolate the rest of the rules and stats and play 8th ed now
I've not see any comment really on the 'some chapters view the Primaris with suspicion' comment. It certainly paints a future with both types of marine, and they have gone to great lengths to explain that both will offer different things to a general. There was a few Primarchs that didn't like Robute's ideas 10k years ago, is that list kicking about still somewhere? Would be interesting, especially as it's a strong possibility that we have another Primarch coming back..
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Honestly, I'd prefer it if these "NuMarines" were simply existing and experienced adult Space Marines that have had further genetic manipulation and enhancements and upgraded gene-seed, rather than newly recruited Marines implanted at a young age with the upgraded geneseed. It would also explain why some "NuMarines" can be considered Veterans - because they truly are Veterans, having served for years as a regular Marine in their respective Chapters before being sent to Mars for upgrades. Chapters might be more willing to accept existing members of their Chapter who've been sent to Mars for upgrades than complete outsiders foisted upon them without their consent.
Is that even possible? Can you take an existing adult Marine and make further alterations to his gene-seed and body?
That would have made MUCH more sense. It explains why they are widely available, why all chapters accepted them (even the most secretive), why they can have veterans, why they would be able to be created so quickly and in such quantities, why they already have dreadnoughts etc.
Vorian wrote: [Your common sense will be lost in this thread, like tears in rain.
Anybody claiming stormsurge might have 2 wounds and 6+ save doesn't really have common sense.
You know what common sense can be used to? Accurately extrapolate rules and their impact from imperfect information. People have been doing that for years. As it is you could already play fairly accurate game of 8th ed if you wanted to put effort to.
Thanks for proving my point.
Better to have your "lack of common sense" than pretend everything is all fine and rosy and nothing to worry about when evidence points there being something to worry about.
Sure one can be like ostrich but you know what? They don't get any protection from that. They just get eaten.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Seneca wrote: The strange thing is, GW said that they are NOT invalidating regular Space Marines, neither fluff wise nor rules wise. Not slowly nor fast. In fact the rules preview showed that they have different tactical uses than regular Marines. That is why GW posted their Pri-Marine FAQ.
You really think they would say "oh btw we will stop all sales and support of old marines in 5 years"?-)
Really? You think they would say anything that even MIGHT cost them sales?
You have no idea of the power level. You're being ridiculous.
And what would they say if they genuinely had no intention of retiring the old marines? Exactly what they are saying.
You can whip up whatever paranoid rubbish you want, but it's totally made up with nothing actually pointing to it.
Thebiggesthat wrote: My other favorite comment is that someone could extrapolate the rest of the rules and stats and play 8th ed now
Not complete obviously but yes you can extrapolarite enough that you can have fairly good idea of what it is. Infact I would be willing to bet tournament hardcores are allready doing that as that way they get headstart over those who naively believe you need to know everything before you can extrapolate from it.
Newsflash: People have been doing it for years.
It's not like this is complete overhaul where autocannons are suddenly S1 pou-pou guns. Indeed I bet there won't be major changes with S values and AP values can be already figured out.
But sure keep telling you need to know 100% to be able to figure out how game works. You just are at disadvantage to those who are willing to think about things in advance.
I'll be playing power levels most likely, so I'm under no disadvantage.
You clearly enjoy being unhappy, so I'll let you carry on. As I've said, those that want to put their money where their mouth is, I've got plenty of money for postage, and will donate to charity for each army someone wants to throw away. Will even let that person choose their charity.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So hyped for those Death Guard
I'll be playing power levels most likely, so I'm under no disadvantage.
You clearly enjoy being unhappy, so I'll let you carry on. As I've said, those that want to put their money where their mouth is, I've got plenty of money for postage, and will donate to charity for each army someone wants to throw away. Will even let that person choose their charity.
If you bothered to read what I say I have praised GW for their good things. But unlike some I'm not going to just pretend everything is fine and dandy. That's not usefull. Taking realistic view and accepting good and bad is much better.
And btw power levels don't protect you from being worse player. Those who study already how to play 8th ed efficiently are obviously more at advantage than those who aren't. Actually they will have even bigger advantage with power levels so...
Is there ANY point about complaining about scale given everything we've seen in recent releases across multiple editions? You must have guessed things would have been embiggened? It's the current style.
JohnnyHell wrote: Is there ANY point about complaining about scale given everything we've seen in recent releases across multiple editions? You must have guessed things would have been embiggened? It's the current style.
Well in this case yes, because they haven't provided a fluff reason. Unless if the entire CSM line is getting biggered (for no reason), it is kind of annoying.
I am thinking these are something new (not plague marines), as they provided a fluff reason for SM getting bigger, and made it clear their old marines weren't invalidated.
Tamereth wrote: Here's one I may have missed, but if these stupid NU-Marines have mark ten armour, what happened to mark 9. Or is the ad mec secretly Microsoft?
Probably a prototype mark that never made it off the ground before Primaris was made (fluff explanation).
Well that's a lovely surprise. Custodes-size Plague Marines
From his posing & backpack I'd say he was more of a Plague Champion so I wouldn't assume too much about the rank and file from it.
The bells and censers...meh, we're not Skaven, but nothing a pair of clippers cant fix
If the whole new DG range is upscaled that's fine by me, means I can easily use the Primaris marines and kitbash them into more Plague Marines. GW have confirmed Primaris marines are compatible with existing heads & shoulderpads, which should be good enough (I'll be pitting Mk3 heads and pads on Primaris marines at least)
That helmet is perfect, down to the rivets and the Mk2 mono-eye, and he's not got the overly mutated appearance of some of the other previews.
Anything that is big is automatically hated now. Love this forum.
Nurgle + warp + already huge-ass Chaos Space Marine = even bigger Chaos Space Marine. Bigger models are a good thing in my opinion. More space for interesting details and it makes for an easier paintjob. Sure, it might mean smaller armies, but that's also a good thing. 40k never really did feel good playing with hundreds of minis imo.
It almost seems like this Stay Frosty guy has a hold of the starter box or something, anyone know where he/she is getting all these pictures if not?
alleus wrote: It almost seems like this Stay Frosty guy has a hold of the starter box or something, anyone know where he/she is getting all these pictures if not?
They were the model builders, the guys who GW hires to actually put together the models for the previews. apparently they took these pics about 5 months ago
My only real issue with the recent DG is that they are too over the top when it came to characterization. Couldn't give a damn about their size.
In other news, DG vs Primaris Starter? Well at least there I'll be able to retain some money
Not for me will probably sell the marine half though.
I am already going to splurge enough on the GH + the Astartes codex and the Tau codex for my nephew.... and I haven't even seen the Dreadnought yet... >_>
This seems wrong, they put out the FAQ saying Chaos would have their own toys rather than Primaris being corrupted.
Edit:
But I play Chaos! Where are my super-super-human reinforcements?
First off, that’ll teach you for turning your back on the Emperor. Secondly, did you not see the Death Guard teaser video? The Chaos Gods have not been idle – we guarantee there are some warp-charged hulking warriors on their way for you guys in the not too distant future.
Thanks, Rippy, for getting in contact with him and posting it here.
What does his last reply mean? For us non-native speakers could you guys explain his hint, please. No problem if that turns out to be a misinterpretation later, but it would help to understand what he is saying. Thank you
Vorian wrote: This seems wrong, they put out the FAQ saying Chaos would have their own toys rather than Primaris being corrupted.
Edit:
But I play Chaos! Where are my super-super-human reinforcements?
First off, that’ll teach you for turning your back on the Emperor. Secondly, did you not see the Death Guard teaser video? The Chaos Gods have not been idle – we guarantee there are some warp-charged hulking warriors on their way for you guys in the not too distant future.
You can interpret this in a way that they HAVE corrupted Primaris marines:
" The Chaos Gods have not been idle" = The Chaos gods have been corrupting the new marines.
"we guarantee there are some warp-charged hulking warriors on their way for you guys" = Primaris will be coming for Chaos as corrupted versions.
Warhams-77 wrote: Thanks, Rippy, for getting in contact with him and posting it here.
What does his last reply mean? For us non-native speakers could you guys explain his hint, please. No problem if that turns out to be a misinterpretation later, but it would help to understand what he is saying. Thank you
I have asked for a clarification, but basically what he said was:
* This Death Guard is a Plague Marine, and will be in starter set
* This Miniature was also a Primaris Marine
* Chaos gods hasn't changed this marine at all, due to fluff/lore changes
Vorian wrote: This seems wrong, they put out the FAQ saying Chaos would have their own toys rather than Primaris being corrupted.
Edit:
But I play Chaos! Where are my super-super-human reinforcements?
First off, that’ll teach you for turning your back on the Emperor. Secondly, did you not see the Death Guard teaser video? The Chaos Gods have not been idle – we guarantee there are some warp-charged hulking warriors on their way for you guys in the not too distant future.
You can interpret this in a way that they HAVE corrupted Primaris marines:
" The Chaos Gods have not been idle" = The Chaos gods have been corrupting the new marines.
"we guarantee there are some warp-charged hulking warriors on their way for you guys" = Primaris will be coming for Chaos as corrupted versions.
Don't be surprised when it happens...
Seeing as how people were claiming we would have corrupted Stormcast Eternals within a few release cycles but still nada there...
I think that it's a miscommunication from the guys who did the builds.
That's a very odd way to answer that question if they mean they have been corrupted. Its saying there are warp charged old marines, not corrupted New marines
I guess the actually difference is negotiable, big ass new marines all round, but I don't think they are technically Primaris Marines
I have asked for a clarification, but basically what he said was:
* This Death Guard is a Plague Marine, and will be in starter set
* This Miniature was also a Primaris Marine
* Chaos gods hasn't changed this marine at all, due to fluff/lore changes
Vorian wrote: This seems wrong, they put out the FAQ saying Chaos would have their own toys rather than Primaris being corrupted.
Their full reply was:
But I play Chaos! Where are my super-super-human reinforcements?
First off, that’ll teach you for turning your back on the Emperor. Secondly, did you not see the Death Guard teaser video? The Chaos Gods have not been idle – we guarantee there are some warp-charged hulking warriors on their way for you guys in the not too distant future.
There is a whole gulf of semantic ambiguity between what they said and "Chaos don't get corrupted Primaris", and the truth could be anywhere within that gulf.
Frankly, Primaris being incorruptible is lazy storytelling, the Imperium already has Sororitas, Grey Knights and Custodes who are allegedly incorruptible, adding primaris to the list (especially as they have confirmed there will be whole chapters of Primaris marines) begs the question of why Chaos is such a threat if the Imperium can pump out tens of thousands of warriors utterly immune to its influence.
It could be that Primaris marines are corruptible, but not many have fallen yet, and Chaos cannot take Primaris marines but will get something equivalent
It could be that the starter set tells the story of the first battle between Primaris marines and chaos corrupted Primaris marines
It could be that Chaos-corrupted Primaris marines exist in lore but are not available in game
It could be that chaos-corrupted Primaris marines behave mechanically the same as Plague Marines following their corruption, in the same way a nurgle-blessed Space Wolf doesn't have any different rules to a Nurgle-worshipping Blood Angel
All of those outcomes (and more) technically fall within the FAQ answer, because it is so vague as to not completely rule out or rule in anything other than chaos literally having access to Primaris marines in the same form as the Imperium do
It's painfully obvious all marines are now the Primaris size, loyalist via ultra-magic and chaos via Warp magic. These guys are the new 40k, as GW likes to put it.
The old scale is dead.
EDIT @ Rippy: either that or Chaos just made the existing marines grow two sizes the day they saw the Primaris. It's all easy enough to just say "The Warp" with Chaos.
Gamgee wrote: Yeah but Custodes used to be so good they sat around defending the Emperor. They weren't out there in mass numbers directly replacing space marines. As a matter of fact there were so few they were basically unique individuals not a real army.
They are also distinct enough and will be around after old marines are gone. Old marines are just out dated. Plain up. Though who knows. Maybe Gulliman will get around to making super cutodes. Hahaha.
Too much fools being too hopeful in this thread.
Dude, just you trying hard to be miserable about a random piece of background, doesn't give you the right to piss over everybody else that is having a good time with what they get.
If you hate it all so much, why don't go and f...ind yourself another game that you like more.
Last time I checked this was a Warhammer forum, but it feels more and more like a forum for people that hate Warhammer.
*They are Primaris Sized (not Primaris themselves)
*Possible geneseed messed with in the warp to make super chaos marines, to counter Primaris and have a fluff excuse to make larger marines.
*They are Primaris Sized (not Primaris themselves)
*Possible geneseed messed with in the warp to make super chaos marines, to counter Primaris and have a fluff excuse to make larger marines.
Oversized chaos marines are all over the lore, particularly as soon as mutations and even slight demonic influence play a role. That's the sort of stuff that 10k years in the warp does to you, especially if you are favoured by your god.
*They are Primaris Sized (not Primaris themselves)
*Possible geneseed messed with in the warp to make super chaos marines, to counter Primaris and have a fluff excuse to make larger marines.
Oversized chaos marines are all over the lore, particularly as soon as mutations and even slight demonic influence play a role. That's the sort of stuff that 10k years in the warp does to you, especially if you are favoured by your god.
Yes, but up until this point, not the majority of cult figures, and if this rumour is true, then they will be.
*They are Primaris Sized (not Primaris themselves)
*Possible geneseed messed with in the warp to make super chaos marines, to counter Primaris and have a fluff excuse to make larger marines.
I think what will be the most interesting to see is if Chaos Marines are all uniformly upgraded to Warp-hulk status in the rules, or if there will be a demarcation between them and the existing lines (that won't be expanded upon, but still supported). Fluffwise, it might not make much sense for there to be these guys and smaller marines who have all been sitting around in the Warp for 10k years. Unless the biggerfication is some recent phenomenon.
*They are Primaris Sized (not Primaris themselves)
*Possible geneseed messed with in the warp to make super chaos marines, to counter Primaris and have a fluff excuse to make larger marines.
I think what will be the most interesting to see is if Chaos Marines are all uniformly upgraded to Warp-hulk status in the rules, or if there will be a demarcation between them and the existing lines (that won't be expanded upon, but still supported). Fluffwise, it might not make much sense for there to be these guys and smaller marines who have all been sitting around in the Warp for 10k years. Unless the biggerfication is some recent phenomenon.
I think it's hilarious that people are going crazy over new sizes... The Chaos Marines in Dark Vengeance were already bigger than regular marine, I myself have sized them and sent pictures to people. And the new 1k Sons are bigger as well, and not because of their head gear.
??????? I can't make an army out of a single Avatar. Its like they literally are baffled by the concept of people not wanting a sludge of space marine goo poured down their throats constantly.
