I'll beg to differ.
Still, I'd rather not have a large argument about it with people such as yourself who are otherwise uninvolved deciding to interject themselves into that discussion.
Aussies are about to be hit by import duty changes (1 July 2018) though no-one knows how it will work yet, but getting taxed on shipping costs seems likely. It's not worth backing any kickstarters that aren't shipping from local hubs anymore.
It starts with Gerry Harvey being fed into a wood chipper with "Penalty Rater" painted on the side, the cheers of the masses still not loud enough to drown out his whining
I think we're in full agreement on this one. Bring on Amazon!
It seems like Shadespire may well be fully established when Vanguard gets released. Unless you're being snarky about Vanguard's likely time to be on shelves? Either way, both games look good, but they look to be in different subgenres with only small(ish) model counts as their main aspectin common.
auticus wrote: I find that the how AOS and things based on AOS are treated and received much more warmly over in the UK than they are in the States...
Well, Stockholm syndrome for GW would obviously be much stronger in the UK.
Sounds like this is another one of those mediocre games that will be played only by people who only play GW games just because they are GW games and actively ignore the existence of anything else.
Maybe at least keep your Shadespire/GW trolling to actual Shadespire threads? Or better yet just stop doing it entirely.
Given Mantic's propensity for blowing through delivery times and GW's approach of 'meh, screw it' support for their niche games he could well be onto something.
auticus wrote: I find that the how AOS and things based on AOS are treated and received much more warmly over in the UK than they are in the States...
Well, Stockholm syndrome for GW would obviously be much stronger in the UK.
Sounds like this is another one of those mediocre games that will be played only by people who only play GW games just because they are GW games and actively ignore the existence of anything else.
Maybe at least keep your Shadespire/GW trolling to actual Shadespire threads? Or better yet just stop doing it entirely.
Wow kid, are you for real? Put me on ignore if you want, but you don't get to tell me what opinions I am allowed to have and where I am allowed to post them.
Rule #2 of Dakka is stay on topic, and we've strayed far from that here...
No more sniping about other posters, and particularly no more discussion of Shadespire in this thread, please. Valid comparisons and discussion would have been great, but that's not what we're getting here. If someone truly does want to compare the two in a meaningful way, please start a thread in Dakka Discussions and link to it here.
Back on topic to Mantic and their new Vanguard game upcoming... thanks all.
Azazelx wrote: Any idea where we can find instructions so I can spend my time QAing their product again? My sets didn't come with any.
No dice on directions, but the USLAE blog did a solid review of the Tunnel Runner here. Fun fact, this assault monowheel is probably my favorite mini Mantic has done - ok, second after Ektar I'm a huge fan of the design, many schemes around great gobs of monowheels cruising about. Happy to hear the cast / material came out well.
More OT, Northern Alliance seems cool to me, in a weird Forces of Nature mishmash sort of way.
MattG said on a podcast that the intent is for PVC plastic for the box contents miniatures, but no official word on the materials for bonus stuff or extras.
I'm pledging a $1 on this to wait and see. Whether I go bigger depends on my impression of Star Saga, and also how they treat retail. To explain why, if anyone is interested...
I was bummed by the poor quality of the rules writing and execrable proof-reading with DS. The components were nice, but the quality of the rules was lacking - to the extent that despite buying everything, I played through the base set once with a mate and put it back on the shelf and have not touched it again. Such a shame for such a beautiful product. I know others have really enjoyed the game, however, so quite prepared to say YMMV.
This led me to question the quality of Mantic, and specifically Jake's rules writing, and more specifically lack of attention to detail. I pledged for rules-only for Deadzone 2 and Warpath as while the premise for the games interested me, I didn't want to go big on armies until I saw the quality of the rules.
Deadzone 2 was a mixed blessing in this regard. The base game was excellent and picked up where Jake dropped the ball with version 1, but there was still a huge amount of evidence that the game, particularly the points values and special rules for the individual factions, really hadn't been adequately playtested, despite having a considerable period of time to do so. The sheer length of the Errata (n.b. Errata, not FAQ, although that was long too!) that was finally issued, and is still not fully complete (Veermyn, I'm looking at you!) So some lessons had been learned, but not all.
I bought the Warpath rulebooks only, but to be honest, nothing against the game itself, but the buzz completely died for me by the time the kickstarter finally delivered. The game may be great but I personally have lost interest in a new large-scale sci-fi wargame. In the intervening period while waiting for delivery I had picked up Beyond the Gates of Antares, and that is scratching the itch.
But I was convinced from what I read on the Mantic forums that the lessons had been learned with DS to the extent that a sci-fi version may have been adequately playtested and proofread this time, so I went for it and bought the base game. I didn't go big, but I did get the base game and a few extras. Matt Gilbert taking a Quality Control role at Mantic also helped me take the risk.
However another factor in deciding not to go big at the KS stage was that Dungeon Saga and Deadzone both ended up being for sale at retail at virtually the same price (and often even cheaper via discounters) than what I had paid at KS all that time before. Plus the final retail offer was actually often better quality (remember those book boxes?!).
So if the same happens with Star Saga, then I am completely out for Mantic Kickstarters. The combination of KS fatique - (seriously, no buzz lasts a year before delivery) and the lack of any real discount over retail mean there is no incentive.
I mean I get KS is not just a discounted pre-order system, but is about helping small businesses launch new products. And that is fine. But a) Mantic is a business not a charity, so why should I do that for free? and b) there are a gazillion really good games out there now competing, the last thing I need is yet another one competing for my time and money.
So we'll see. I like the premise - fantasy skirmish games are fun, But I already own and play several. I do like and play Kings of Watr though, so a game that will add into the fun of that sounds like enough of an extra USP to maybe be worth it. However, how they treat retail vs. Kickstarter with the release of Star Saga will make the difference with whether I pledge now, or just wait a year and get it at retail.
I'm definitely interested. The core rules feel solid, although there are areas that need to be improved. I'm not a fan of critical hits (or rather not in the current form) but that seems a designing trend these days.
The problems I have with mantic kickstarters are that there is very little information on what are suitable forces for a basic game. What is planned to come in the box, what forces are the minimum needed.
It's hard to judge what the sweet spot is, how much do you really need. Of course, Mantic will tell you that all in gives you best value for your money.
It made me drop out of the Mars attacks game, and later buy it (and a few items) at retail.
With Deadzone 2 I dropped to only a terrain pledge (which Mantic screwed up) -- and Mantic did change the contents of the box from the kickstarter to the retail version.
That said I was very happy with the basic pledge of The Walking Dead, and I hear those that got their full pledges were happy when they got them (there was some delays).
So in short, I will be watching this one. Be aware that mantic will steadily beef up the pledges to get more people to raise their pledges. My advice is either go all in from the start or just come in late and see how it fares.
Miniature-wise I'm hoping for some "totally-not-maruaders" miniatures for the northern alliance and a strong showing for the nightstalkers, Love me some chaos proxies
ulgurstasta wrote: Miniature-wise I'm hoping for some "totally-not-maruaders" miniatures for the northern alliance and a strong showing for the nightstalkers, Love me some chaos proxies
I doubt Mantic will make spiky He-mans. If you want reasonable northern raiders, Frostgrave already has you covered.
ulgurstasta wrote: Miniature-wise I'm hoping for some "totally-not-maruaders" miniatures for the northern alliance and a strong showing for the nightstalkers, Love me some chaos proxies
I doubt Mantic will make spiky He-mans. If you want reasonable northern raiders, Frostgrave already has you covered.
Frostgrave only has you covered as long as you like your barbarians to look small compared to all your other miniatures!
Mutter wrote: Looks pretty cool. Although I think the Nightstalker stuff is much better than the Basilean. Only really dig the Abess ...
I'm surprised the Nightstalker stuff looks good, to be honest (or at least the 3d renders do).
The Basileans at least look better than the absolute dogcrap that the KoW lines for them do.
I might pick up some of this once it actually becomes available in stores (in the US). Which isn't something I say about Mantic stuff often.
Prestor Jon wrote: I like the terrain and objectives that are included but I’m a bit disappointed in the number of duplicate models in the war bands.
Mantic rep hinted "it's early days", so I expect we'll see an alt-sculpt SG.
That would be nice. I wouldn’t mind duplicates of troops that could function in small units but I’ll probably pledge for the Nightstalker war and and seeing 2 of the same ogre sized dude was a letdown.
I really want two of the war bands rather than the base game in the only pledge. And $45 seems pretty high for the number of minis, although I expect stretch goals to ameliorate that quite a bit.
I love that the Basileans look so pumped over how awesome they are. That kind of enthusiasm is infectious.
But what will the 'production miniature' look like?
The final mini will look like the render
At least as long the majority of the beakers will not come up with "we don't care how the minis look like as long as we get them faster" like on the KoWKS.
New Men at Arms are sorely needed for the Basilean faction. This render looks a bit chunky to me though. Hopefully actual models come off as a bit more realistically scaled when made into physical form.
But what?
Mantic is doing Resin in House and for HIPS has a new partner who stick to the contract
looking at the Summer Campaign and latest Warpath Minis, there is no reason to assume that those minis will be looking different than the render, except people are crying for it
I was thinking about it for a good few minutes about going for it.
The truth of the matter is, with my relative mehness about Deadzone 2 (Still not played a game), not playing Warpath, the strength of the various alternatives right now (Frostgrave has had several campaigns at my club so far, plus the Game That Shall Not Be Named), the price being really rather high (Probably £75 at least including shipping), I think I'll wait until retail, if it ever reaches retail.
As a sidenote, this looks like one of the first mantic kickstarters that hasn't immediately funded.
The truth of the matter is, with my relative mehness about Deadzone 2 (Still not played a game), not playing Warpath, the strength of the various alternatives right now (Frostgrave has had several campaigns at my club so far, plus the Game That Shall Not Be Named), the price being really rather high (Probably £75 at least including shipping)
At the moment I don't see any other game taking the same spot
Frostgrave about the same size, but a very different game and everything else uses more models (on another Forum, a lot of people were worried about Vanguard as they play A Fantastic SAGA as fantasy skirmish, but with 10 model Warbands on the open field, AFS having ~30 it is different enough to have a closer look)
But I agree that this time, the prize is not a good reason to preorder, at least for now as it say "streatch goals included" and we don't know if they are worth it
Will I receive the Kickstarter products before the game is available at retail?
We always endeavor to deliver the Kickstarter pledges before the game is available at retail, however in exceptional circumstances the pledges will deliver slightly after the retail launch. However, we try to avoid this as much as possible!
The rules sound interesting, but the mini's leave me cold and imo duplicate miniatures in a small scale skirmish game is a big no.
The problem for me is that so much cool stuff is available to buy now or very soon (Necromunda) that I can't justify spending money on miniatures that will take many months before it is released.
I've bought heavily into quite a few Mantic KS's. Each set of figures has improved over the previous. However, even a few of the Walking Dead figures had unfixable warping.
The really old DZ1 restic, although an awful material to work with, did work with the boiling water treatment. You could reshape anything. You just couldn't get rid of the awful mold lines though.
The latest pvc models seem to work with the boiling water treatment, but over a few days, slowly creep back to their warped positions.
My biggest worry for this KS is all those long thin straight Basilean weapons. How cheap are they going to look with curving.
I think I'll stick to SoBH until I see a retail version.
Mantic Games: Based on previous Kickstarters and customer feedback, they prefered the idea of a starter set for one player. We will have a two-player starter set for the retail launch but you won't get as many miniatures in the warband as the Kickstater. We've got plenty of fun stuff planned! Plus, if you get another warband, you'll get all the dice and warband cards to use those too.
Who's giving this feedback? and why are they listening to it? if your going to do a skirmish game a two player starter is the way to go, I don't like the Basileans even the new designs but I'd take them as a 2nd warband over the terrain they've thrown in which is cheap padding as it's already paid for. This looks more like a $130 KS disguised as a $85 KS.
I've put $1 in to see how it goes.
EDIT:it appears they might be considering a 2 player option based on the KS comments feedback
Mantic Games 15-time creator 9 minutes ago
In regards to the two-player starter set, we asked community members and looked at previous Kickstarters and a lot of people responded that they preferred their own warband with the book, etc. However, rest assured, we're listening to your comments.
Also waiting on this, the $ pricing is the kicker for a UK backer, there's not £65 + whatever shipping comes to (possibly £10) worth in there.
£98 + shipping for both warbands is way over what I'd pay considering that's only 20 minis and terrain that a lot of us already have from the terraincrate KS.
This is probably one that is intended to have huge value as it progresses, but doesn't currently. That can backfire as per the dreadball frenzy pledge a while ago.
Seems to be going nicely so far, so we'll see. Some new hard plastics for KoW would definitely be welcome.
lord_blackfang wrote: Let's all pester them for an option to swap terrain for a second warband.
On it.
I really don't get what they were going for with the starter. "Play this two player game--by yourself! Get a friend to buy the other faction, plus waste $40 buying a second book, terrain set, etc.!"
What if they threw a skirmish and only one side came?
Neither of these warbands is doing it for me. I think I'd be happy with a pledge for just the rulebook at this stage.
The initial offering seems very lacklustre to be honest, I hope they improve on this pretty fast. The sneak peak images of the northern alliance stuff is much more interesting.
I'm actually a lot more excited about this than I thought I would be. The rules look fun, really enjoyed the batrep, and the Nightstalkers are fantastic.
That said, I will be waiting for retail. A combination of timing for the KS and KS burn in general.
I can't believe there are people in the comments section there not only defending the choice of not having a 2 player starter set as an option, but saying "If you don't like it then don't pledge".
Why on earth would you tell someone not to back a kickstarter you want to see succeed?
Zethnar wrote: I can't believe there are people in the comments section there not only defending the choice of not having a 2 player starter set as an option, but saying "If you don't like it then don't pledge".
Why on earth would you tell someone not to back a kickstarter you want to see succeed?
Because it’s the internet . People on he internet know better than anyone else on the internet, therefore they know that the other people are terrible and should only be praising Mantic and pooping rainbows.
Sorry, I can't trust Mantic and their absolute kickstarter lies.
I've backed 2 Mantic Kickstarters. Both times they promised to ship Royal Mail in their FAQ. Both times they ended up shipping DHL. I got burned so hard on shipping costs and duties that I will never back another Mantic Kickstarter campaign.
I'm still salty about it.
Their products are great and I still buy them except I buy them at a retailer like Wayland at a discount with free shipping and no duties.
Zethnar wrote: I can't believe there are people in the comments section there not only defending the choice of not having a 2 player starter set as an option, but saying "If you don't like it then don't pledge".
Why on earth would you tell someone not to back a kickstarter you want to see succeed?
Because it’s the internet . People on he internet know better than anyone else on the internet, therefore they know that the other people are terrible and should only be praising Mantic and pooping rainbows.
My wife regularly poops rainbows.
And my mom...
Like, every day.
Honest.
I'm stoked about this one (dropped Joan of Arc to pick this up), but am bummed - it's funding very slowly, meaning we ain't likely to see too many stretch goals. Sure hope they throw up some alt-poses quick, to get folks more interested.
Zethnar wrote: I can't believe there are people in the comments section there not only defending the choice of not having a 2 player starter set as an option, but saying "If you don't like it then don't pledge".
Why on earth would you tell someone not to back a kickstarter you want to see succeed?
I agree that the "if you don't like it then XYZ-off" is a nasty attitude, and should be squashed.
However, I also appreciate that there are not two sides to every starter box.
Most people will already have a few dozen/hundred/hundred-dozen fantasy models to use with these rules and terrain.
Some may wish for a new starter set to "get started" but... I figure that this is the minority of those interested.
The shipping is what is stopping me from going for this kit, frankly.
I can't imagine that shipping to South Korea is cheap.
But, if I wait for this kit to appear on Mantic's website, then I might qualify for free or reduced shipping that way, later.
I don't think anyone asking for a 2 player starter set is saying not to offer other options. The single pledge level they do offer is just kinda unappealing and includes you a lot of junk that experienced wargamers probably don't need. I don't own any Mantic fantasy stuff, in fact I don't own a lot of fantasy stuff at all, so having two factions is way more useful to me than something I can produce on my own for next to nothing (i.e. the terrain pieces).
Saving the 2 player starter for retail only seems like a reasonable response given how often they're criticised for ignoring/undercutting retail by putting everything people will ever want in the kickstarter.
are...are you sure that's how this kind of thing works? 'Cause I could totally see the common wisdom that the KS campaign had too few backers with too many complaints creating the impression that the game is DOA, inhibiting retail sales and leaving Mantic holding the bag, a bag that costs more because two small, differing print runs cost a lot more than one larger print run.
I think they're on a hiding to nothing every time they respond to criticism and make a decision on a new direction, and calculated that they could demonstrate a loud commitment to retail and it would still fund well enough anyway.
ulgurstasta wrote: Miniature-wise I'm hoping for some "totally-not-maruaders" miniatures for the northern alliance and a strong showing for the nightstalkers, Love me some chaos proxies
I doubt Mantic will make spiky He-mans. If you want reasonable northern raiders, Frostgrave already has you covered.
Frostgrave only has you covered as long as you like your barbarians to look small compared to all your other miniatures!
So true, both the warriors and the barbarians look great, I was so sad when I discovered they were so small :(
The market is still wide open for a great marauder / fantasy vikings kit, which is what I am hoping mantic will bring out.
ulgurstasta wrote: Miniature-wise I'm hoping for some "totally-not-maruaders" miniatures for the northern alliance and a strong showing for the nightstalkers, Love me some chaos proxies
I doubt Mantic will make spiky He-mans. If you want reasonable northern raiders, Frostgrave already has you covered.
I wouldn't count it out, A barbarian kit could work as a the base for both northern alliance and varangur, just like salamanders did for FoN and Salamanders. Odds are low though that we will see them for this campaign though.
I would also expect a Nightstalker sprue as it could serve for both them and the revamped Twilight Kin (Dark Elves), but we have yet to see if they want to use the Vanguard KS to finance that (like they did with the second Deadzone KS for many plastic sprues for Warpath) or if they will do a separate KS later to go with the book that will add the new Twilight Kin, the Northen Alliance and the Ophidians to KoW
Automatically Appended Next Post:
This seems to confirm the new basilean men at arms sprue and a scarecrow sprue
BobtheInquisitor wrote:What about the ones who praise rainbows..?
Not that I’m planning on building a army of scarecrows, but I hope the legs all don’t have the one missing and replaced by flames of dark energy. One or two would be fine, but all of them with only 1 foot would be daft.
As always thank you for all your support so far - it's good to see the total continuing to climb! One of the great things about Kickstarter is that during the campaign we're able to listen to our backers and make changes based on their feedback.
One of the clear concerns for the opening pledge is the lack of a two-player starter set. That's absolutely our mistake, we looked at previous Kickstarters and spoke to fans about what they wanted - and many said they preferred to have their own rulebook and warband in a skirmish game. Plus, the terrain plays an important part in Vanguard so we wanted to make sure that was in there from the beginning too.
Another thing that caused some confusion was not listing the materials for the heroes – and to some this made the pledge looks a little light on value. The show piece models are going to be in high quality resin – and this was missing from the pledge graphic. In the Basilean Warband, the Abbess and Dictator, and in the Nightstalker's warband, the monstrous Mind Screech (which comes on a 50mm base) will all be in resin, as will the Nightstalkers Shade, which we've now added to the Warband Pledge (Ed - Ronnie's OCD kicked in because we didn't have a render and he told me to leave it out. I’ve overruled him, but it'll just be the artwork for now!) The pledge graphics reflect this info now.
So, apologies for not including a two-player starter set option from the start, or making clear enough where the value was. With that in mind, we’ve put the 2 player option up there now – also at $85. In this set we’ve removed the scenery and resins and added in the second Warband – more than enough miniatures to get Vanguard started in style, and of course, all the books, dice, cards and everything else you’ll need too. We're sorry for not including that from the start - but we have listened and hope this scratches that itch.
Thanks again for the support so far, the starter pledge is already cheaper than retail. With your help we can unlock some really exciting extra elements and we have some amazing things planned - like the BRAND NEW hard plastic Basilean Men at Arms and the hard plastic Scarecrows for the Nightstalker warband. In fact, they'll be the first stretch goal once we're funded and then we can really start adding even more to your pledge!
Still at $1 while adding the 2 player set was a good move removing the resin hero miniatures and leaving just 4 unique sculpts (doubled up) in each warband also removed a lot of the value. They will probably reappear as $8-$10 add ons putting the cost back to $120/$130 for a complete 2 player set but without the added terrain.
Well I guess this kickstarter is going to die a slow and painful death.
I get that Mantic are pricing it with the expectation that a bunch of stretch goals will unlock, but they can't get away with that anymore. Right now I'd be better off putting my money towards Necromunda. The cost is about the same and I'd get more and better miniatures than Mantic are offering, not to mention plastic terrain, a thick card playmat with variable layouts, and a bunch of dice and templates. There's just no comparison when it comes to value there.
I'll be honest : this Kickstarter looks to me like a cash grab. No more, no less. I bet Mantic Games needs some cash now to finish their previous projects.
It really looks like what Spartan Games did with Firestorm Armada - very low value, only high pledges and trying desperatly to show things so that lots of people get their wallet.
I'm not touching this one. If it succeeds, I'm fine with waiting what the real product will be once it hits the shops. And I have no doubt it will be in the shops while still on the way of delivery for the gullible backers...
Sarouan wrote: I'll be honest : this Kickstarter looks to me like a cash grab. No more, no less. I bet Mantic Games needs some cash now to finish their previous projects.
It really looks like what Spartan Games did with Firestorm Armada - very low value, only high pledges and trying desperatly to show things so that lots of people get their wallet.
I'm not touching this one. If it succeeds, I'm fine with waiting what the real product will be once it hits the shops. And I have no doubt it will be in the shops while still on the way of delivery for the gullible backers...
I wouldnt say that, actually. To me, it looks like their usual KS stuff. Problem is, theyve always banked on rushing through their stretchgoals, with limited value from the get-go. With KS fatigue a widespread thing, and Mantocs track record being at least somewhat dubious, their tactic just doesnt work anymore. DS made them pretty well known, but when the game itself left so much to be desired... that put loads of people off of backing their games. So yeah. Not really getting cash-grab vibes here, just them using a tactic that has been less and less effective recently
:/
Forgive me, but this is a slightly off topic question. But does Mantic even need to use Kickstarter anymore? I was under the impression they were a decently sized company these days. Do they really need to be crowd funding for their games going onwards?
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Forgive me, but this is a slightly off topic question. But does Mantic even need to use Kickstarter anymore? I was under the impression they were a decently sized company these days. Do they really need to be crowd funding for their games going onwards?
If Honeywell can put a security system on IndieGoGo, then I'm pretty sure anything goes as far as 'crowdfunding' now.
Edit: And just to clarify, if you could get money for a product you haven't made yet and still not actually be legally required to make/deliver said product, then wouldn't you take that option every time? Oh, and it comes with free publicity!
They are still rather small compared to GW, and things like a new game takes a lot of investment.
As they mentionned for early projects, without a KS, they could release a new game, but with the KS they can have a decent model range ready and financed for the initial release that they couldn't have with in house financing, and they can also already plan for at least some extentions to the base game.
Imagine that they release Vanguard but the models that you see here are the only available for 6 month or more, would the game get the same chance for success ?
I'm in for now, but I don't know if I'll stick around. Sculpts look good but I feel like this was a bit rushed and needs to be fleshed out a lot more. Rules looked good, but when there are so many different factions in KOW, I'm kinda surprised there's only 2 here. They really should have started off with at least 4, and showed teasers for warbands from others too. I'm sure they have plans for other factions in stretch goals, but it feels like there's just not enough meat to sink your teeth into just yet.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Forgive me, but this is a slightly off topic question. But does Mantic even need to use Kickstarter anymore? I was under the impression they were a decently sized company these days. Do they really need to be crowd funding for their games going onwards?
Mantic are still tiny and they are not operating at the economies of scale to be making vast piles of cash from their products at their current prices. Investment in plastic is pretty risky for them without a Kickstarter as it takes quite a while before you can start making a profit on your outlay.
The other big advantage of the Kickstarter is that it engages with the fans and gives them a voice in the finished product.
So in short they still need it for some things but are still releasing plenty of non kickstarted products as well.
This is far from an irredeemable situation, but I think the KS could stand to see a bit of a remix. The small model-count natural for this kind of game conflicts with the value proposition most people expect these days, even from smaller companies.
Again think about the diversity and volume of models, etc... in Joan of Arc right now.
As such I don't think Mantic can do their usual "start with a mediocre deal, but grow into a terrific one"
I think EBs in previous KS hid this problem to a degree people jumped on the EB (sometimes multiple on multiple accounts) not knowing if they'd keep it or not just for the initial discount and the project hit its funding no problem it wasn't until mid campaign that things started going side ways now there's no EB there's no incentive to put more than a dollar in and wait and see. I know people don't like EBs but they get the project across the line initially which encourages more backers in (some won't invest until a project is funded) CMON have been able to get away from them but Mantic aren't yet in that position particularly when the initial value isn't there and they are trying to sell you on an as yet unknown final great deal.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: This is far from an irredeemable situation, but I think the KS could stand to see a bit of a remix. The small model-count natural for this kind of game conflicts with the value proposition most people expect these days, even from smaller companies.
Again think about the diversity and volume of models, etc... in Joan of Arc right now.
As such I don't think Mantic can do their usual "start with a mediocre deal, but grow into a terrific one"
The small model-count should also mean that each model in the warband should have been unique. I find it a very strange decision to add duplicates for such small warbands. I know that they are probably planning to add more diverse models as a stretch goal, but the starting warbands should have been unique from the start.
Necros wrote: I'm in for now, but I don't know if I'll stick around. Sculpts look good but I feel like this was a bit rushed and needs to be fleshed out a lot more. Rules looked good, but when there are so many different factions in KOW, I'm kinda surprised there's only 2 here. They really should have started off with at least 4, and showed teasers for warbands from others too. I'm sure they have plans for other factions in stretch goals, but it feels like there's just not enough meat to sink your teeth into just yet.
Note that the alpha rules already include the rules for 4 factions, and they are neitheir the basilean nor the nightstalkers, so that's at least 6 factions for release, and I expect to see probably much more by then.
I suppose that the basilean and nightalker are not in the beta test to appease retailers that can be reluctant to store a game when the full rules are already available to the public from a beta test.
Sarouan wrote: I'll be honest : this Kickstarter looks to me like a cash grab. No more, no less. I bet Mantic Games needs some cash now to finish their previous projects.
If I had a dollar for every time someone incorrectly speculated that in a Mantic KS thread on dakka, I wouldn't need to be looking through the job ads.
The new Basilean renders looks ok at a first glance, but why oh why did they have to keep two of the worst design elements? The weird unattatched sleeves on the sisters and the incredibly stupid shields on the men at arms? With a shield swap the men at arms could become real nice heavy infantry.
Trouble is that it's again another picture throwed like this, as if it was rushed to satisfy the growling crowd.
For example, we don't know if the men at arms are designed to be equiped with only spears or if there will be options for other weapons, like crossbows.
It's really weird indeed to have duplicate models for a skirmish game. That's why this project smell funny to me. It's like they're trying to launch this project right now before the end of the year, and they can't afford to wait any further. That's why I feel it's more a cash grab : the duration is also very short, only 15 days. That's not the same feeling than the previous projects.
They built the Hype clearly so that they can gather a lot of money quickly at the beginning. They are counting on their fan base to support them blindly. We'll see in the end if that will be enough, this time.
Men at Arms are in the KoW rulebook, they are a known quantity replacing an old sculpt - they come with sword and shield, or spear and shield. I'm betting they'll also be as slightly multipose as any of the other hard plastic sprue line infantry Mantic has made, which is to say not completely, but enough to be avoid overwhelming sameness, but still fit together on a tray without playing arm puzzles.
The Men at Arms Sergeants being monopose single sculpt BGP is a different issue.
You're trying really hard to make this something that it isn't.
Sarouan wrote: It's like they're trying to launch this project right now before the end of the year, and they can't afford to wait any further. That's why I feel it's more a cash grab : the duration is also very short, only 15 days. That's not the same feeling than the previous projects.
Not a cash grab. I was speaking with Matt Gilbert at the weekend and he informed me that Kickstarter themselves are recommending shorter campaign durations these days. There is also a lot of congestion on KS right now and gamers being fickle beasts can often be distracted by new campaign starting up taking their cash with them.
The Vanguard campaign's aims are 1) to launch a new game and 2) to fund some nice new miniatures which will also be useful in Kings of War. Given the latter I would expect alternate poses to crop up in the stretch goals.
Previous Mantic projects have recently had really, really bad times in the doldrums of mid KS slump with mantic having to try hard to stop mass exodus
so a short campaign helps prevent that
as to having to launch now that may well be the case if they've got a pastics manufacturing slot booked with the possibility to expand it if the KS goes well,
they've already had to switch plastic production to a new supplier so keeping to the slots they book with them is going to be crucial to keep their standing with them
jorny wrote: The new Basilean renders looks ok at a first glance, but why oh why did they have to keep two of the worst design elements? The weird unattatched sleeves on the sisters and the incredibly stupid shields on the men at arms? With a shield swap the men at arms could become real nice heavy infantry.
It’s a very strange decision. The men themselves look ok, but th shields look like LEGO shields, making the models look like cheap dollar store toys. I hope they’ll change them.
Sarouan wrote: Trouble is that it's again another picture throwed like this, as if it was rushed to satisfy the growling crowd.
For example, we don't know if the men at arms are designed to be equiped with only spears or if there will be options for other weapons, like crossbows.
The HIPS men-at-arms kit is a stretch-goal that hasn't been reached yet so I don't think it's weird that the sprue-layout hasn't been shown or even finalized yet.
It would presume options for both swords or spear. Maybe crossbows too, but I could se those being sold as metal or resin addons.
I feel really bad for Mantic. They know their logistics are not the best, and have been criticized into oblivion in the past for having too many options in their Kickstarters, slowing down packaging and shipping and resulting in multiple waves. Creating additional pledge levels is the gateway to mispacks and delays. This is universally recognized as Mantic's main Kickstarter problem.
so, Mantic launches a kickstarter with a single pledge level. Hard to feth up! Pledge, and choose your warband in the pledge manager. If you want to play the game, pledge for the only pledge level. So, what happens? Cue a barrage of complaints that there are not enough pledge levels, the loudest being lack of a 2 player starter set. An unnecessary one, to say the least, as one can be made by pledging for the normal pledge level and adding the other warband.
So, Mantic kowtows and offers a 2-player starter set at the same pledge price, offering less models per warband overall than buying one warband. Well, of course, duh. That makes perfect sense. Cue complaints! The petulant din increases because of a lack of understanding of basic economics! I'm wondering if these same people are bewildered that the Kings of War 2 player starter set has less models per side than buying two Kings of War Army boxes...
Mantic, learn your lesson. There are people whose hobby consists of actually playing games, and there are people whose hobby is playing Forum Complaint. The first type spends money, the second type does not. Pivoting based on new marketing data is one thing - a smart thing! - but appeasing the unappeasable is another, really dumb thing. You should have just offered a 2 player starter set pledge for $130 - aka the cost of one starter set plus an additional warband.
I feel really bad for Mantic. They know their logistics are not the best, and have been criticized into oblivion in the past for having too many options in their Kickstarters, slowing down packaging and shipping and resulting in multiple waves. Creating additional pledge levels is the gateway to mispacks and delays. This is universally recognized as Mantic's main Kickstarter problem.
so, Mantic launches a kickstarter with a single pledge level. Hard to feth up! Pledge, and choose your warband in the pledge manager. If you want to play the game, pledge for the only pledge level. So, what happens? Cue a barrage of complaints that there are not enough pledge levels, the loudest being lack of a 2 player starter set. An unnecessary one, to say the least, as one can be made by pledging for the normal pledge level and adding the other warband.
So, Mantic kowtows and offers a 2-player starter set at the same pledge price, offering less models per warband overall than buying one warband. Well, of course, duh. That makes perfect sense. Cue complaints! The petulant din increases because of a lack of understanding of basic economics! I'm wondering if these same people are bewildered that the Kings of War 2 player starter set has less models per side than buying two Kings of War Army boxes...
Mantic, learn your lesson. There are people whose hobby consists of actually playing games, and there are people whose hobby is playing Forum Complaint. The first type spends money, the second type does not. Pivoting based on new marketing data is one thing - a smart thing! - but appeasing the unappeasable is another, really dumb thing. You should have just offered a 2 player starter set pledge for $130 - aka the cost of one starter set plus an additional warband.
It's not a game intended to play solo, so everything to have two people to start playing should have been included in the base set.
Seeing as we’re approaching the 24 hour mark and we’re edging ever closer to that funding goal, we thought we’d give a little sneak peek of the first stretch goals to whet your appetites.
HARD PLASTIC MEN AT ARMS
This is a big one - multi-part, multi-pose, hard plastic Men at Arms for the Basilean warband. These troops will add plenty of options to your warband choices and are extremely useful for those Group Actions. If you’ve played the alpha rules, you’ll know that Group Actions can play a vital part in Vanguard battles.
As a special bonus for hitting the funding goal we’ll be adding FIVE hard plastic Men at Arms to the Basilean Warband and the Two-player Set. Also, for those of you that play Kings of War and want to bolster your Basilean forces, we’ll be opening up a $20 regiment option, so you can grab 20 of these new miniatures for your army.
THE HORROR
After the hard plastic Men at Arms, it’s time to add something horrific to the Nightstalkers. The Horror was once a brave Stone Priest but now they’ve been twisted into this terrible creature! At $80,000 we’ll be adding two plastic Horrors to the Nightstalker warband and the two-player set.
SISTERHOOD SCOUT
To combat that terrible Horror, you might need some ranged options for the Basileans. At $85,000 we'll add two plastic Sisterhood Scouts to the Basilean warband and the two-player set.
HARD PLASTIC SCARECROWS
After all that we’ve got something else very exciting lined up for the Nightstalkers - it’s the hard-plastic, multi-part, multi-pose hard plastic Scarecrows (shame we’ve missed Halloween with these guys). Just like the Men at Arms, these will become the disposable grunts in your warband, led by the more powerful heroes.
We’ll add FIVE to the Nightstalkers warband and the two player set. Again, just like the Men at Arms, for those of you wanting to start a Nightstalkers army for Kings of War, we’ll be adding an $20 optional extra to get a regiment of 20 Scarecrows.
Also, we’ve been asking for your suggestions for potential scenarios in the comments. We’ve had some great ideas so far and if you’ve got any more we’d love to hear them.
Let's get through that funding goal and unlock more goodies for everyone! Onwards and upwards Vanguardians.
I feel really bad for Mantic. They know their logistics are not the best, and have been criticized into oblivion in the past for having too many options in their Kickstarters, slowing down packaging and shipping and resulting in multiple waves. Creating additional pledge levels is the gateway to mispacks and delays. This is universally recognized as Mantic's main Kickstarter problem.
so, Mantic launches a kickstarter with a single pledge level. Hard to feth up! Pledge, and choose your warband in the pledge manager. If you want to play the game, pledge for the only pledge level. So, what happens? Cue a barrage of complaints that there are not enough pledge levels, the loudest being lack of a 2 player starter set. An unnecessary one, to say the least, as one can be made by pledging for the normal pledge level and adding the other warband.
So, Mantic kowtows and offers a 2-player starter set at the same pledge price, offering less models per warband overall than buying one warband. Well, of course, duh. That makes perfect sense. Cue complaints! The petulant din increases because of a lack of understanding of basic economics! I'm wondering if these same people are bewildered that the Kings of War 2 player starter set has less models per side than buying two Kings of War Army boxes...
Mantic, learn your lesson. There are people whose hobby consists of actually playing games, and there are people whose hobby is playing Forum Complaint. The first type spends money, the second type does not. Pivoting based on new marketing data is one thing - a smart thing! - but appeasing the unappeasable is another, really dumb thing. You should have just offered a 2 player starter set pledge for $130 - aka the cost of one starter set plus an additional warband.
It's not a game intended to play solo, so everything to have two people to start playing should have been included in the base set.
Mantic's misstep was assuming not everyone would want both factions and that people who did could, you know, do the math, and add $45 to their pledge.
Tonhel wrote: Yes, ofcourse you can add $45 to your pledge, but it is all in the presentation.
Sure, and they pivoted - like I said, that can be a good thing! - and now offer a cheap 2 player starter. But now the complaint is that $85 gives you less stuff than $130.
Zethnar wrote: Well I guess this kickstarter is going to die a slow and painful death.
It's barely more than 24 hours old and 80% funded. It'll do fine.
They’ll make it, but when start ups break their funding goals in 24 hours or less and seam to be more with it from the get go with their KS it really is a bad show from an experienced group.
I am worried it won't do that well. It'll fund, limp along for a while, and Mantic will take note that their skirmish level, fantasy battle offering was not something that folks wanted.
This bums me out. This was the Mantic product I've been waiting for, and the rules looked fun. I'm now concerned that Mantic won't allocate the resources or energy for adequate playtesting and development. I sure wouldn't if my new KS offering was sputtering along this poorly.
I kinda feel like they should have done it more like a small campaign for just the printed rulebook with a PDF version free forever, and then had rules for making warbands out of all of the Kings of War factions where the idea is you use models from your KOW armies to build your warbands, rather than separate warband sets for Vanguard.
Then in the campaign could have models for special character warband leader types, who can also be used in your KOW armies. It could be a good way to get players into the larger wargame where they can start to collect and build up a bigger army around the warband they started with.
I feel really bad for Mantic. They know their logistics are not the best, and have been criticized into oblivion in the past for having too many options in their Kickstarters, slowing down packaging and shipping and resulting in multiple waves. Creating additional pledge levels is the gateway to mispacks and delays. This is universally recognized as Mantic's main Kickstarter problem.
so, Mantic launches a kickstarter with a single pledge level. Hard to feth up! Pledge, and choose your warband in the pledge manager. If you want to play the game, pledge for the only pledge level. So, what happens? Cue a barrage of complaints that there are not enough pledge levels, the loudest being lack of a 2 player starter set. An unnecessary one, to say the least, as one can be made by pledging for the normal pledge level and adding the other warband.
So, Mantic kowtows and offers a 2-player starter set at the same pledge price, offering less models per warband overall than buying one warband. Well, of course, duh. That makes perfect sense. Cue complaints! The petulant din increases because of a lack of understanding of basic economics! I'm wondering if these same people are bewildered that the Kings of War 2 player starter set has less models per side than buying two Kings of War Army boxes...
Mantic, learn your lesson. There are people whose hobby consists of actually playing games, and there are people whose hobby is playing Forum Complaint. The first type spends money, the second type does not. Pivoting based on new marketing data is one thing - a smart thing! - but appeasing the unappeasable is another, really dumb thing. You should have just offered a 2 player starter set pledge for $130 - aka the cost of one starter set plus an additional warband.
It's not a game intended to play solo, so everything to have two people to start playing should have been included in the base set.
Mantic's misstep was assuming not everyone would want both factions and that people who did could, you know, do the math, and add $45 to their pledge.
WOOPS
Do you think $130 is a competitive price for a 'standard' starter set? Honestly asking, because I know my own perceptions are locked in an old man grumpus version of c2000 pricing. To me, that feels like an instant no deal.
I'll be spending 40 bucks on the hard plastics for sure. I still want those Basilean characters...although I don't want to spend $85 because there is no $45 option.
The $85 two player starter is a no go for me because they dropped the most exciting minis from each faction. I guess I'm a bad gamer, but I just don't value the rules at all.
Theophony wrote: They’ll make it, but when start ups break their funding goals in 24 hours or less and seam to be more with it from the get go with their KS it really is a bad show from an experienced group.
Not necessarily. The goal is to fund the rulebooks and tooling for the base game. You start blasting through funding goals and that creates more problems. People want more stuff, people complain when that stuff isn't free. Deadlines get pushed back(cure more complaining), shipping gets pushed up (yet more complaining), and if the company has other lines and games to serve - like mantic - that's all additional time taken away from those games.
Success is funding the project. More can be nice, but not always.
Theophony wrote: They’ll make it, but when start ups break their funding goals in 24 hours or less and seam to be more with it from the get go with their KS it really is a bad show from an experienced group.
Not necessarily. The goal is to fund the rulebooks and tooling for the base game. You start blasting through funding goals and that creates more problems. People want more stuff, people complain when that stuff isn't free. Deadlines get pushed back(cure more complaining), shipping gets pushed up (yet more complaining), and if the company has other lines and games to serve - like mantic - that's all additional time taken away from those games.
Success is funding the project. More can be nice, but not always.
Tell that to the recent Shieldwolf and TMS miniature kickstarters. Both funded succesfully, but still the creators cancelled it before the kickstarter ended. I don't think "just" funding is something Mantic will be happy with.
827 backers 146 at $1 no reward (17.7%) even if all $1s upped to $85 now it still wouldn't meet it's funding target (it's close though $74,880 assuming all $1 are just $1)
Theophony wrote: They’ll make it, but when start ups break their funding goals in 24 hours or less and seam to be more with it from the get go with their KS it really is a bad show from an experienced group.
Not necessarily. The goal is to fund the rulebooks and tooling for the base game. You start blasting through funding goals and that creates more problems. People want more stuff, people complain when that stuff isn't free. Deadlines get pushed back(cure more complaining), shipping gets pushed up (yet more complaining), and if the company has other lines and games to serve - like mantic - that's all additional time taken away from those games.
Success is funding the project. More can be nice, but not always.
I haven’t watched any mantic KS very closely in a while (walking dead was the last I watched), but the last time they blew through stretch goals the stretch goal costs got dropped to $5,000 between stretches. They are no where in the league of GW or cmon.
judgedoug wrote: I feel really bad for Mantic. They know their logistics are not the best, and have been criticized into oblivion in the past for having too many options in their Kickstarters, slowing down packaging and shipping and resulting in multiple waves. Creating additional pledge levels is the gateway to mispacks and delays. This is universally recognized as Mantic's main Kickstarter problem.
so, Mantic launches a kickstarter with a single pledge level. Hard to feth up! Pledge, and choose your warband in the pledge manager. If you want to play the game, pledge for the only pledge level. So, what happens? Cue a barrage of complaints that there are not enough pledge levels, the loudest being lack of a 2 player starter set. An unnecessary one, to say the least, as one can be made by pledging for the normal pledge level and adding the other warband.
So, Mantic kowtows and offers a 2-player starter set at the same pledge price, offering less models per warband overall than buying one warband. Well, of course, duh. That makes perfect sense. Cue complaints! The petulant din increases because of a lack of understanding of basic economics! I'm wondering if these same people are bewildered that the Kings of War 2 player starter set has less models per side than buying two Kings of War Army boxes...
Mantic, learn your lesson. There are people whose hobby consists of actually playing games, and there are people whose hobby is playing Forum Complaint. The first type spends money, the second type does not. Pivoting based on new marketing data is one thing - a smart thing! - but appeasing the unappeasable is another, really dumb thing. You should have just offered a 2 player starter set pledge for $130 - aka the cost of one starter set plus an additional warband.
I think you're getting a bit excited there about spending way too much money on 20 miniatures of questionable quality from Mantic. Offering the two warbands at a reduced capacity was possibly not the smartest move they ever made, as it is neither the 1 warband pledge level nor the 2 warband pledge level is really worth the money they are asking. The big complaint was honestly not that there was no 2 player starter set, anyone with half a brain could add the second warband to their pledge and get enough bits to play with both factions, the issue was that $130 to get both factions and the rulebook, plus shipping, is a ridiculous price to ask for what they're offering.
As for an $85 pledge containing less than a $130 pledge, I think the expectation most people had was that they would take out all of the terrain that no-one wanted and include the second warband. Getting cut-back warbands that may not even be rules-legal is kind of a gakky compromise. I'm sure most people would have been happy paying a bit more and getting the complete warbands.
The lesson Mantic needs to learn is that they need to offer a good value base pledge, not price their product with the expectation of paying for stretch goals.
Zethnar wrote: Well I guess this kickstarter is going to die a slow and painful death.
It's barely more than 24 hours old and 80% funded. It'll do fine.
It'll probably fund, but I can't see it doing the usual knock down a bunch of stretch goals and make the core pledge worth the money. It only takes till day 3 for most projects to hit the mid-campaign dry spell, and once that hits I seriously doubt we're going to see much movement in the funding total. I don't think the game barely funding is what anyone wants or was expecting out of this, and even if it doesn't cause people to drop their pledges, it won't help in attracting new backers.
What's this about the 2 player starter set having "reduced" warbands? They just dropped the scenery and added the second warband right? I can't find where they say what's been dropped.
They've taken the resin hero figures from both factions out of the 2 player starter set. Compare the graphic on the starter set to the graphic for each of the warbands, the missing models are what's not in the box.
There's been some question as to whether you can still form a legal warband with what they're offering with only some vague responses from whoever is managing the kickstarter community but no definitive answer.
pancakeonions wrote: What's this about the 2 player starter set having "reduced" warbands? They just dropped the scenery and added the second warband right? I can't find where they say what's been dropped.
Update specified that the resin miniatures would not be included in the 2-player warbands, only the PVC ones.
It's not a game intended to play solo, so everything to have two people to start playing should have been included in the base set.
Is it, or is it just a method to get stealth KoW money for some armies that were written up several years ago and are either going to be finally fleshed out with non-gakk kits or finally started (respectively)?
That it didn't even occur to them to offer it as a two player game suggests to me that it's a kickstarter for +2 KoW armies. As does the update that talks about getting basic scenario ideas from backers.
Meanwhile, from Mantic themselves, you can drop $80 on the KoW Battle of the Glades starter box and get 80 hard plastic minis, 2 metal characters, and the rulebook.
Curious how this'll compare to Privateer's Company of Iron, which aims to be a similar squad based skirmish boxed set (with TWO warbands) for roughly the same price, and just as expandable.
Of course Privateer also gets plenty of grief for repeated sculpts at such for small scale battles...
Is it, or is it just a method to get stealth KoW money for some armies that were written up several years ago and are either going to be finally fleshed out with non-gakk kits or finally started (respectively)?
That it didn't even occur to them to offer it as a two player game suggests to me that it's a kickstarter for +2 KoW armies. As does the update that talks about getting basic scenario ideas from backers.
While I think the rules author, Matt, is treating this like a real project, Mantic did already use a new game (DBX) as just really, really fancy throw-away packaging for new DBO teams in the past. Wouldn't put it past them.
Even though this might fund in a day or two it's still gonna be disappointing to mantic, I think at least five of their latest KS has funded on the first day. So they pulling the plug on this project is getting more and more likely I say.
Question is how they are gonna make this more appealing for the re-launch. As a mantic fan I dont have any problem with pledging early and wait for the value to come in with the stretchgoals, but there doesn't seem to be enough of people like me out there
Mantic won't pull the plug they'll sweeten the deal to get backers in they've had to do it several times before although normally during a mid campaign back slide not at the start.
If this doesn't cross the line today it won't over the weekend and by Monday people might start pulling/reducing pledges because it hasn't funded.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
For those asking about a rulebook, tokens and dice-only option - we're planning to add that today. It'll be an optional extra. We're taking on board the suggestions and comments.
In the meantime, anyone planning on playing the alpha this weekend? What warband are you taking for a spin?
Nothing to tempt me yet. A rulebook option may do to be frank, but the more I think about it, the more "meh" I am becoming.
I get that the Nameless is a faction that appeals to a lot of people but gribblies have never been my thing, and the Basileans are not to my taste either (I did start a faction for KoW, but got a bit bored with them).
Maybe if I'd played more KoW recently, but TBH I'm just not feeling it at the moment. Ho hum. Once you have to start finding excuses to convince yourself you want the game, I guess its best to stop! If it gets funded then I'll consider it when it launches at retail. If it doesn't fund, or doesn't launch big at retail (like DBX didn't), then I won't have missed out anyway.
The core error is possibly the structure itself at this point - having a price point which factors in "it will hit $500k and have loads of goodies in it so we need to make it fairly expensive" as something guaranteed.
It isn't a guarantee anymore, especially if you can't show value at the start and flounder, Kickstarter will wreck you and recovering from that takes way more effort than getting it right the first time, its why we so so many rebooted kickstarters.
Kickstarter has changed a lot over the last 2 years, in that patience levels have trended towards zero, loads of kickstarters out there all the time, people have 5-6 that they're still waiting to receive, many others that they got and never played and something has to be really good or have very wide appeal to compete. Dungeon Saga and Terrain Crate hit the wide appeal sweet spot. Walking Dead was always going to be a guaranteed hit with the IP and ruleset that absolutely nailed it.
Mantic possibly need to consider alternate approaches, such as the one used in the recent Korra boardgame KS by IDW (and maybe others, I haven't been looking at many kickstarters lately): where the value is there from the start, and the bonus content is revealed slowly throughout the campaign to keep people excited, I backed it and it was awesome, $65 base pledge and all 7 team expansions thrown in for free as stretch goals, only one $30 add-on which I went for because I was happy with the brilliant value in the core pledge:
15 stretch goals, silhouetted out, it works better than expected because it makes full use of the day 1 traffic surge by showing the full value of what you're getting from the start, eliminating any early bad vibes about it lacking value.
There wouldn't be this debate if there were 15 guaranteed stretch goals hinting at 30-40 bonus minis (probably what Mantic has planned for and factored into the $85 price point) silhouetted out with daily reveals, it would have hit $100k already.
As it is, this one will probably get the kitchen sink thrown at it in terms of freebies to get it back on track... which might end up working out well for backers.
Zethnar wrote: I think you're getting a bit excited there about spending way too much money on 20 miniatures of questionable quality from Mantic. Offering the two warbands at a reduced capacity was possibly not the smartest move they ever made, as it is neither the 1 warband pledge level nor the 2 warband pledge level is really worth the money they are asking. The big complaint was honestly not that there was no 2 player starter set, anyone with half a brain could add the second warband to their pledge and get enough bits to play with both factions, the issue was that $130 to get both factions and the rulebook, plus shipping, is a ridiculous price to ask for what they're offering.
I think the operative qualifier is "anyone with half a brain" - which unfortunately has been an alarmingly low number of people based on the Facebook and Kickstarter comments.
Zethnar wrote: As for an $85 pledge containing less than a $130 pledge, I think the expectation most people had was that they would take out all of the terrain that no-one wanted and include the second warband. Getting cut-back warbands that may not even be rules-legal is kind of a gakky compromise. I'm sure most people would have been happy paying a bit more and getting the complete warbands.
Wait, what? Are you serious? Or are you being facetious? We just got through talking about how anyone with half a brain could pledge 85 + 45 = 130 (" I'm sure most people would have been happy paying a bit more and getting the complete warbands").
I thought this was basic logic here. Removing a finite value item (the terrain) and replacing it with a variable value item (a warband with upwards of infinite free stretch goal models) would be a fething stupid move on Mantic's part. I literally cannot imagine the thought processes of someone whose expectation would be that...
The move that Mantic made makes perfect sense - a cut down 2 player starter that is far cheaper than a normal starter plus an extra warband. But people are somehow... incapable... of understanding that when you pay less... you get less.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Do you think $130 is a competitive price for a 'standard' starter set? Honestly asking, because I know my own perceptions are locked in an old man grumpus version of c2000 pricing. To me, that feels like an instant no deal.
I'll be spending 40 bucks on the hard plastics for sure. I still want those Basilean characters...although I don't want to spend $85 because there is no $45 option.
The $85 two player starter is a no go for me because they dropped the most exciting minis from each faction. I guess I'm a bad gamer, but I just don't value the rules at all.
Bob, I'm not locked into any mode of objective value thinking. You could tell me I could get 5000 miniatures for $130 and I would not bite if they were some tin flat looking garbage. Back in the heady days of 2013 with Kickstarters tempting us with loads of gakky pvc that we got late and mispacked and shoved into boxes into our closets never to be seen again, yes, I would want to see a bucketful of miniatures for a nickel. But I realized I don't belong on The Miniatures Page where old grognards attempt to play indecipherable rulesets using a bucket of army men painted with Humbrol glossy enamels.
Several pages ago I was horribly critical of the previews they were showing. The rules looked grade-A dumb. Then this Kickstarter launched, I read the Alpha rules, I changed my opinion entirely, and pledged.
All that a single person needs to play is a warband. I don't understand this NEED for a 2 player starter set full of minis for a faction that will just be shoved into a closet. (I'm looking at you, Basileans), but I understand the desire.
So the rules sold it for me - Mantic has traditionally made really fething good rulesets, these Alpha rules look pretty fun, despite all of my original trepdiations.. so I'm in on this one, and based on the Star Saga and Walking Dead models then I feel the Aybssals might actually look good.
If I wanted a giant pile of gakky miniatures for super cheap I'll send an email to Prince August to get 80 Warzone plastics for 20 bucks.
Good move. This is how it should have been from the start. I know having just 1 pledge level is good for making fulfillment easier, when it comes to a game like this people want more options. It's not a boxed game with everything included. Hopefully this will get things moving now.
Salamanders are available, you have them in the Forces of Nature Warband, so they will get rules.
I suppose that extended rules for other entries like the ghekko will probably come later when they will have models for them, same for other factions like the league of Rhordia.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also they didn't include the abyssal eitheir despite them already having rules in the alpha version, and Mantic said when this was remarked that they had something special planned for them, so maybe those listed are only for the initial release with a supplement already planned ?
Confirmation that Salamanders and other factions from Uncharted Empires not already listed *will* get a list, they just won't be included in the printed initial book at release but will be made available as PDF later (and maybe printed later in a supplement I suppose ?)
Mantic on KS wrote:
(...) there will be lists for existing factions available from launch (similar to those $20 warbands shown in the update) so players can create a warband and use them in Vanguard. We will make the ones not available in the book (the remaining Uncharted Empires ones) available from the Mantic website
judgedoug wrote: Wait, what? Are you serious? Or are you being facetious? We just got through talking about how anyone with half a brain could pledge 85 + 45 = 130 (" I'm sure most people would have been happy paying a bit more and getting the complete warbands").
I thought this was basic logic here. Removing a finite value item (the terrain) and replacing it with a variable value item (a warband with upwards of infinite free stretch goal models) would be a fething stupid move on Mantic's part. I literally cannot imagine the thought processes of someone whose expectation would be that...
The move that Mantic made makes perfect sense - a cut down 2 player starter that is far cheaper than a normal starter plus an extra warband. But people are somehow... incapable... of understanding that when you pay less... you get less.
Yes, I am serious. A $100 starter set with two full warbands probably would have worked for everyone. It still wouldn't have been great value mind you, but it would feel a bit less like Mantic was trying to rip us off. This has been mentioned multiple times, but $130 is simply too much for what they are offering. It is not just 'a bit more' than $85, which itself is too much to charge for a handful of PVC miniatures, it's half again as much as a core pledge. If you are willing to spend $85 on 16 sub-standard PVC minis (or an extra $45 for those 4 resins and cheap scatter terrain) then more power to you, but as it turns out a lot of people aren't interested in being overcharged for crap plastic.
It's all well and good to talk about the value of stretch goals, but I don't see any of them unlocked so far, and at the rate the kickstarter is going I don't suspect that too many of them are going to be unlocked at the close of the funding period either. The pledges Mantic offer need to be worth the money right off the bat, this strategy of pre-charging for the stretch goals clearly isn't going to work for them anymore.
judgedoug wrote: All that a single person needs to play is a warband. I don't understand this NEED for a 2 player starter set full of minis for a faction that will just be shoved into a closet.
I didn't realise the game supported solo play using only one warband.
jtrowell wrote: Confirmation that Salamanders and other factions from Uncharted Empires not already listed *will* get a list, they just won't be included in the printed initial book at release but will be made available as PDF later (and maybe printed later in a supplement I suppose ?)
Mantic on KS wrote:
(...) there will be lists for existing factions available from launch (similar to those $20 warbands shown in the update) so players can create a warband and use them in Vanguard. We will make the ones not available in the book (the remaining Uncharted Empires ones) available from the Mantic website
But keep a few grains of salt handy. I'm still waiting for my Mars Attacks lists for Deadzone 2 and Warpath.
I've backed several other Mantic KickStarters but I've just cancelled my pledge for this one. I'm still waiting on Warpath vehicles 2 years after the KS ended.
Vanguard sounded interesting and I thought, for once, Mantic would have it ready to go. Shadespire and Company of Iron have just arrived and can be played right now. Why wait for a minimum of 1 year for a ruleset that could be released early in the new year if they'd just playtest it? I don't want to fund yet another release of miniatures. In the case of Basilean MaA it's a re-release with terrible Nexo Knight shields. After looking at what was on offer for the standard reward and what poor value it represented I decided to give it a miss. I refuse to pay for their stretch goals in advance anymore. If it ever makes it to retail I'll look at it then.
judgedoug wrote: All that a single person needs to play is a warband. I don't understand this NEED for a 2 player starter set full of minis for a faction that will just be shoved into a closet.
I didn't realise the game supported solo play using only one warband.
I think I have found the disconnect in our conversation. It seems that for you a game is wholly unplayable unless there is a 2 player starter set.
I think the real issue isn't that there wasn't a two player set, as obviously it was easy to add the other warband and have a two player set. The problem was that the kickstarter as a whole is a terrible value.
Maccwar wrote: The rulebook only pledge was enough to get me to join in.
To be fair, i'm extremely tempted to drop DOWN to that level... so it is a mixed blessing. :-p
I'd like to grab a base pledge but neither warband is very appealing to me. The Nightstalker one is more interesting but I'm not sure about the coherency of the art direction for that faction. The warband seems to want to be gribbly monsters from the nightmare realm which is cool with me but I don't understand how the scarecrows fit in with that. They look like actual animated scarecrows armed with farming implements and with evil smoke appendages, that's way too campy for the other monsters that are more of the PG-13 version of CMON's The Others. If I got the Nightstalker warband I feel like I'd want to try to pick up a sprue or two of Tyranid 'gaunts off Ebay and kitbash them. I like the completeness of the $85 base pledge so I'll wait and see what gets unlocked/added before deciding.
Albino Squirrel wrote: I think the real issue isn't that there wasn't a two player set, as obviously it was easy to add the other warband and have a two player set. The problem was that the kickstarter as a whole is a terrible value.
Now this I can agree on.
There's three ways to do a Kickstarter.
The first: be truthful about the money you need. Core funding goal will be very, very high. There won't be many stretch goal/freebies because you plan to have a single production wave and get everything done in the tightest budget and best overall value to the backer, with high quality components.
IT WILL FAIL.
The second: don't be truthful about the money you need. Core funding goal is relatively low. Your "stretch goals" will be stuff you plan on producing anyway, so that when the Kickstarter eventually slows down you can reduce the amount of money needed between each stretch goal. In order to appease the most number of backers, you'll create a million pledge levels and a trillion add-ons. Because of the overpromising, you don't have the budget for resculpts or retools. Delays will run rampant and you'll have to ship in two waves. But you need to release to retail first to pay for the second wave shipping. IT WILL SUCCEED, SORT OF.
The third: straight up lie about the money you need. Core funding goal is next to nothing. You get an absurd amount of boardgame minis for your pledge. Eventually the KS will make it's "real" funding goal (approximately twenty to fifty times the goal you set) because people are excited about getting such tremendous "value" for their money. IT WILL BE A HUGE SUCCESS. Giant box of mediocre minis arrives very late with rules that list the family dog as a playtester. After a frustrating attempt to play the game, it goes into the closet along with a promise to never do another Kickstarter like that again. Repeat every three months.
I like the look of the renders so I'm in for both warbands at this point. It's a shame that the warbands are so obviously incomplete, as part of Mantic's need to have "false" stretch goals. I hope the KS heats up over the weekend so that the basic pledge levels/add on prices come up to their actual value. Otherwise, the bottom may fall out.
Zethnar wrote: I can't believe there are people in the comments section there not only defending the choice of not having a 2 player starter set as an option, but saying "If you don't like it then don't pledge".
Why on earth would you tell someone not to back a kickstarter you want to see succeed?
There are always star fethers who will tell (any) KS creator that they can do no wrong. Please like me!
Lack of value, redundant terrain, potential issues with (what are they made of?) models and of course, no Aussie-friendly shipping option ("it's too hard" is a weaksauce argument when most anyone else can do it) makes this unappealing.
Add to that the number of competing games and models right now that are available right now at retail, not to mention some rather tasty stuff that's about to release - and Black Friday around the corner that I need to save some cash for, with Christmas around the following corner - and it simply makes this product even less appealing when it comes to competing for my November 2017 dollars. It might well be worth grabbing the rules & dice when it's released, via retail. I can't imaging it being much more expensive - if at all - than backing plus Mantic's shipping.
Sarouan wrote: I'll be honest : this Kickstarter looks to me like a cash grab. No more, no less. I bet Mantic Games needs some cash now to finish their previous projects.
It really looks like what Spartan Games did with Firestorm Armada - very low value, only high pledges and trying desperatly to show things so that lots of people get their wallet.
I'm not touching this one. If it succeeds, I'm fine with waiting what the real product will be once it hits the shops. And I have no doubt it will be in the shops while still on the way of delivery for the gullible backers...
I wouldnt say that, actually. To me, it looks like their usual KS stuff. Problem is, theyve always banked on rushing through their stretchgoals, with limited value from the get-go. With KS fatigue a widespread thing, and Mantocs track record being at least somewhat dubious, their tactic just doesnt work anymore. DS made them pretty well known, but when the game itself left so much to be desired... that put loads of people off of backing their games. So yeah. Not really getting cash-grab vibes here, just them using a tactic that has been less and less effective recently
:/
I think Tyr is right on the money here. We've had endless arguments over the years about "fake stretch goals" and core pledges being priced with the additional value of many stretch goals incorporated into them - the whole "sure, it looks average now, but just wait!" thing. I'm not really interested in the offering as I've stated before, but I don't think it's a cynical cash grab. No more than any other Mantic KS of the past few years, anyway...
Sarouan wrote: I'll be honest : this Kickstarter looks to me like a cash grab. No more, no less. I bet Mantic Games needs some cash now to finish their previous projects.
If I had a dollar for every time someone incorrectly speculated that in a Mantic KS thread on dakka, I wouldn't need to be looking through the job ads.
Mantic, learn your lesson. There are people whose hobby consists of actually playing games, and there are people whose hobby is playing Forum Complaint. The first type spends money, the second type does not. Pivoting based on new marketing data is one thing - a smart thing! - but appeasing the unappeasable is another, really dumb thing. You should have just offered a 2 player starter set pledge for $130 - aka the cost of one starter set plus an additional warband.
Doug, mate. You know I like you and we get on pretty well. But you've got to be careful. When you get on a horse that high, there's a real risk of hurting yourself when you fall.
While I don't get to play nearly as often as I'd like, and spend way more hobby time painting and blogging and even forum-ing than actually gaming due to work, free time availability and the availability of other humans... I for one, do indeed back up all my talk on what I'm willing to spend money on pretty fething well.
Spoiler:
That stack continues a little way in both directions. I couldn't get it all in shot. There's a hell of a lot more than that, too - as I'm sure you'll appreciate.
Not that I've been complaining all that much about this one, but hey.
Eh looks like a good 85 dollar value to me. I also since I have friends I don't need a 2 player starter, 2 of them have already backed it as well.
I actually don't like 2 player starters cause I always have to go through the trouble of selling the second half which yes might save me money but the money/time ratio is never worth it.
It's not a game intended to play solo, so everything to have two people to start playing should have been included in the base set.
Honestly, for a project of this type, three pledge levels would have made sense:
2P starter including rules & a token amount of terrain (BEST VALUE) .pdf rules included.
1P starter including rules/dice/tokens - choosing one predetermined "gang" box. No swapsies for individual models, etc. No terrain.
Barebones rules/dice/tokens pledge. I can see the logic in not including this one from Day1 though, as you want to encourage the larger pledges initially.
Maybe a fourth, with just the pdf rules. Again, introduce that one later.
1 player versus 2 player starters seems like too much of a situational thing to determine either way.
Their viability would pretty much depend on, I think, what the shape of your local community is. For example, Dropfleet Commander is starting to pick up in my local are, and that would have been dead on arrival if there was only single player options. Instead the 2 player set let me demo the game to one of the guys at my club, who is a bit of a community influencer and the game is now picking up.
And yet, for years and years previously, buying 2 player starters for some games have felt like a waste for me. Because there already was a community there.
It's too situational.
As for the impact on a kickstarter. I don't think multiple pledge levels are a problem. Pledge levels with options, or add-ons seem more of a problem. Do 200 of X, and 300 of Y might take more time than doing 500 of Z, sure. But what will take a lot longer is, "do 100 of X, with B, 25 of X with C, 75 of x with D. Oh and 299 of Y with E, but 1 of Y with F... But our minimum order is 25, so err... There's that..."
As an expert armchair wargaming business dude both the problem and solution us obvious. Mantic should have done a kickstarter fot just the rulebook and done the minis as stretch goals. Or maybe mantic should just have released the rules directly to retail and then done a kickstarter for the new Hard plastic basileans and gribblies. New resin heroes could have gone directly to retail as well. As several others have pointed out, what does this offer that you can not get from shadespire or frostgrave without waiting a year?
That said, I still pledged for a rule book. The alpha rules look solid and Mantic can make good games. They still need better art direction fot their miniatures though.
Necros wrote: I kinda feel like they should have done it more like a small campaign for just the printed rulebook with a PDF version free forever, and then had rules for making warbands out of all of the Kings of War factions where the idea is you use models from your KOW armies to build your warbands, rather than separate warband sets for Vanguard.
Do you think $130 is a competitive price for a 'standard' starter set? Honestly asking, because I know my own perceptions are locked in an old man grumpus version of c2000 pricing. To me, that feels like an instant no deal.
I'll be spending 40 bucks on the hard plastics for sure. I still want those Basilean characters...although I don't want to spend $85 because there is no $45 option.
The $85 two player starter is a no go for me because they dropped the most exciting minis from each faction. I guess I'm a bad gamer, but I just don't value the rules at all.
I know you're asking Doug, but that pricing is mental compared to the competition in HIPS, available both now and also what's going to be available in about three weeks. Oddly in comparison to yourself, I'm more interested in the rules than any of the models. Mantic's non-metal models don't hold a lot of intrinsic value to me as the best they've achieved has been "decent" to "pretty good" (and consistently improving) by my own standards. They're certainly no Putrid Blightkings, though.
Theophony wrote: They’ll make it, but when start ups break their funding goals in 24 hours or less and seam to be more with it from the get go with their KS it really is a bad show from an experienced group.
Not necessarily. The goal is to fund the rulebooks and tooling for the base game. You start blasting through funding goals and that creates more problems. People want more stuff, people complain when that stuff isn't free. Deadlines get pushed back(cure more complaining), shipping gets pushed up (yet more complaining), and if the company has other lines and games to serve - like mantic - that's all additional time taken away from those games.
Success is funding the project. More can be nice, but not always.
Tell that to the recent Shieldwolf and TMS miniature kickstarters. Both funded succesfully, but still the creators cancelled it before the kickstarter ended. I don't think "just" funding is something Mantic will be happy with.
I don't think they'll be happy. They no doubt plan for a certain funding range, and that in no way is in the realm of "barely funded". If it were to barely fund, or fun for a bit over (say $100k) I do not believe that Mantic would cancel the project, though. They're much more mature as Project Creators to do something like that. I think it'll likely do well enough over $100k, but it's clearly underperforming by Mantic's own metrics since their first stretch goal is now being given away for "free" as a "funding goal" to get the thing moving...
Azazelx makes strong points about the models. Yes, Mantic is improving. But Necromunda pre-orders are up next weekend and I don't need to wait for GW to improve LOL. The value of that set won't depend on how many other people pre-order it, either.
Yeah, I can't see the argument that this has value. Unless you really place high value on the included terrain. When you can get Necromunda for less money, with the same number of figures but in multi-part hard plastic instead of PVC, also including terrain, rulebook, dice, etc... And obviously style is subjective, but I don't think anyone could argue that GWs miniatures aren't better.
Necros wrote: I kinda feel like they should have done it more like a small campaign for just the printed rulebook with a PDF version free forever, and then had rules for making warbands out of all of the Kings of War factions where the idea is you use models from your KOW armies to build your warbands, rather than separate warband sets for Vanguard.
Do you think $130 is a competitive price for a 'standard' starter set? Honestly asking, because I know my own perceptions are locked in an old man grumpus version of c2000 pricing. To me, that feels like an instant no deal.
I'll be spending 40 bucks on the hard plastics for sure. I still want those Basilean characters...although I don't want to spend $85 because there is no $45 option.
The $85 two player starter is a no go for me because they dropped the most exciting minis from each faction. I guess I'm a bad gamer, but I just don't value the rules at all.
I know you're asking Doug, but that pricing is mental compared to the competition in HIPS, available both now and also what's going to be available in about three weeks. Oddly in comparison to yourself, I'm more interested in the rules than any of the models. Mantic's non-metal models don't hold a lot of intrinsic value to me as the best they've achieved has been "decent" to "pretty good" (and consistently improving) by my own standards. They're certainly no Putrid Blightkings, though.
Theophony wrote: They’ll make it, but when start ups break their funding goals in 24 hours or less and seam to be more with it from the get go with their KS it really is a bad show from an experienced group.
Not necessarily. The goal is to fund the rulebooks and tooling for the base game. You start blasting through funding goals and that creates more problems. People want more stuff, people complain when that stuff isn't free. Deadlines get pushed back(cure more complaining), shipping gets pushed up (yet more complaining), and if the company has other lines and games to serve - like mantic - that's all additional time taken away from those games.
Success is funding the project. More can be nice, but not always.
Tell that to the recent Shieldwolf and TMS miniature kickstarters. Both funded succesfully, but still the creators cancelled it before the kickstarter ended. I don't think "just" funding is something Mantic will be happy with.
I don't think they'll be happy. They no doubt plan for a certain funding range, and that in no way is in the realm of "barely funded". If it were to barely fund, or fun for a bit over (say $100k) I do not believe that Mantic would cancel the project, though. They're much more mature as Project Creators to do something like that. I think it'll likely do well enough over $100k, but it's clearly underperforming by Mantic's own metrics since their first stretch goal is now being given away for "free" as a "funding goal" to get the thing moving...
Yeah. Mantic is improving bu they are still almost great when they are at their best. GW at the same time released a lot og great stuff recently, both games and miniatures. And that is what Mantic have to compete with.
It's not a game intended to play solo, so everything to have two people to start playing should have been included in the base set.
Honestly, for a project of this type, three pledge levels would have made sense:
2P starter including rules & a token amount of terrain (BEST VALUE) .pdf rules included.
1P starter including rules/dice/tokens - choosing one predetermined "gang" box. No swapsies for individual models, etc. No terrain.
Barebones rules/dice/tokens pledge. I can see the logic in not including this one from Day1 though, as you want to encourage the larger pledges initially.
Maybe a fourth, with just the pdf rules. Again, introduce that one later.
Any number of multi-tier pledge levels at the outset would have worked.
Starting with a One Pledge Fits All... really did not work.
I think they crippled their campaign with that decision.
And I say that in spite of actually liking what comes in the initial offering.
I... can honestly say that I would not be disappointed if they ended this campaign, regrouped, and relaunched in a few weeks, with a better idea of what the heck they are doing.
I think that they learned the wrong lessons from previous Kickstarters - and instead of having a pledge that was too complicated, they over simplified.
Playing the Alpha game after Pathfinder tonight, but the real meat is not in the game rules, they are in the campaign rules, and that will take a campaign to test.
We don't even have to go to Mantic's competitors to illustrate the lack of value here! Their own retail starter for KoW (two player, mind you!) gives you 80 plastic minis, two metal minis, a rulebook, and a campaign book for $80USD!
That's 82 miniatures and the rulebook for $5 less than what this Kickstarter's asking! This starting position, even if there will be additions later, is mental.
Yes, indeed. Here is what you can read on the home page of their website :
Welcome to the home of affordable wargames miniatures and fantastic tabletop games
They've made their reputation of this statement they're cheap. Of course, the quality is according to this cheapness.
And here comes Vanguard's Kickstarter. No matter what the Mantic fanboys will say, it's obvious they're trying to go the Walking Dead road by selling miniatures at a higher price they should be, given the material and the quality used. We're paying the "Skirmish Tax" here.
Nothing wrong in this, everyone is doing it but well...the image Mantic Games are games made by players for players at an affordable price isn't really the same than it was before.
And yes, there is GW. No Kickstarter, no delays, outstanding quality and better service...that's what Mantic Games is trying to compete against, with their generic fantasy world and a no less generic skirmish game in a market that is already crowded with them. I mean, the alpha rules may be as great as you want, but seriously, where is the soul of this game ? There is none. It's just a generic rule system for a generic fantasy universe. It only means something to Mantic fanboys who are involved into KoW. And most of them already have enough miniatures to play - they don't need to buy more than the rules, to be honest.
That's why I feel it won't follow the same road than the previous Kickstarters.
We don't even have to go to Mantic's competitors to illustrate the lack of value here! Their own retail starter for KoW (two player, mind you!) gives you 80 plastic minis, two metal minis, a rulebook, and a campaign book for $80USD!
That's 82 miniatures and the rulebook for $5 less than what this Kickstarter's asking! This starting position, even if there will be additions later, is mental.
there are more miniatures (like the hard plastics) and The Horror/Sisterhood Scouts that are coming soon for the two-player set. Also, the book will be a 128-page book (the same size as Deadzone, which retails for $39.99 normally) whereas Battle of the Glades has a rulebook that retails for $19.99, plus you've got objective markers and dice, etc. And that's before we've finished with the campaign. That value will keep getting better!
P.S. I'm just the messenger here. I agree with your price comparison and as much as I'd like to see Vanguard succeed, I think this KS has not been handled well.
Sarouan wrote: I mean, the alpha rules may be as great as you want, but seriously, where is the soul of this game ? There is none. It's just a generic rule system for a generic fantasy universe. It only means something to Mantic fanboys who are involved into KoW. And most of them already have enough miniatures to play - they don't need to buy more than the rules, to be honest.
That's why I feel it won't follow the same road than the previous Kickstarters.
I don't care about KoW or it's setting, I'm backing this because I think the Nightstalkers look neat and the rules intrigue me. It is in fact, only the fourth Mantic KS I've ever done, so not sure only Mantic fanboys care about this. If anything it seems Mantic's usual customers are the ones who don't like this KS at all as they are used to certain type of KS value from Mantic.
Sarouan wrote: Yes, indeed. Here is what you can read on the home page of their website :
Welcome to the home of affordable wargames miniatures and fantastic tabletop games
They've made their reputation of this statement they're cheap. Of course, the quality is according to this cheapness.
And here comes Vanguard's Kickstarter. No matter what the Mantic fanboys will say, it's obvious they're trying to go the Walking Dead road by selling miniatures at a higher price they should be, given the material and the quality used. We're paying the "Skirmish Tax" here.
Nothing wrong in this, everyone is doing it but well...the image Mantic Games are games made by players for players at an affordable price isn't really the same than it was before.
And yes, there is GW. No Kickstarter, no delays, outstanding quality and better service...that's what Mantic Games is trying to compete against, with their generic fantasy world and a no less generic skirmish game in a market that is already crowded with them. I mean, the alpha rules may be as great as you want, but seriously, where is the soul of this game ? There is none. It's just a generic rule system for a generic fantasy universe. It only means something to Mantic fanboys who are involved into KoW. And most of them already have enough miniatures to play - they don't need to buy more than the rules, to be honest.
That's why I feel it won't follow the same road than the previous Kickstarters.
As to GW - you left out 'And Crappy, Crappy Rules!' - which is the other thing that GW has become known for. (Let us be honest - the General's Handbook for AoS was pretty much a gigantic errata that the customers had to pay for. Hurray, GW!)
While many may like the current GW aesthetic, it is by no means a universal opinion - I, for one, feel that the older GW plastic models, from around the time of 3rd edition WH40K, were superior to both Mantic and current GW.
But, yeah... if crappy unbalanced rules and overly ornate models float your boat, go enjoy yourself.
The Auld Grump - that said, I still have hope for the new Necromunda.
judgedoug wrote: All that a single person needs to play is a warband. I don't understand this NEED for a 2 player starter set full of minis for a faction that will just be shoved into a closet.
I didn't realise the game supported solo play using only one warband.
I think I have found the disconnect in our conversation. It seems that for you a game is wholly unplayable unless there is a 2 player starter set.
No, the game is wholly unplayable if I don't have an opponent to play against. Not everyone is in a situation where they have an entire game group pledging to a single kickstarter.
We don't even have to go to Mantic's competitors to illustrate the lack of value here! Their own retail starter for KoW (two player, mind you!) gives you 80 plastic minis, two metal minis, a rulebook, and a campaign book for $80USD!
That's 82 miniatures and the rulebook for $5 less than what this Kickstarter's asking! This starting position, even if there will be additions later, is mental.
It's almost as if this KS is for a whole new game and for miniatures which haven't been put into production yet, eh?
Does it really need pointing out again that Kickstarter is for, well, kicking off projects? Are there really still people who think it's just a shop with curiously long postage times?
As to GW - you left out 'And Crappy, Crappy Rules!' - which is the other thing that GW has become known for. (Let us be honest - the General's Handbook for AoS was pretty much a gigantic errata that the customers had to pay for. Hurray, GW!)
Guess you're forgetting what came after AoS. But seems like you conveniently just focused on this episode and think GW did nothing to these days.
Also, I could talk a lot about Mantic's "balanced" rules - like how they handled the way Dungeon Saga works on custom adventures, that makes me remember how GW wrote their rules in the past.
But sure, keep believing Mantic is so superior to GW on that topic.
The real trouble is that it's another skirmish game with no real new mechanism. Why playing this one more than another ? For players ? Not sure you will find plenty of them for that game. For its new mechanism ? It's so generic it has none. For the campaign system ? Other skirmish games have one. For the world ? The KoW universe is so underdevelopped it's not even richer than AoS' one. For the price ? I think it's obvious the price Mantic is asking for this game isn't as "affordable" as they want to make you believe, especially when compared to what is already on the market elsewhere.Sure, they say the Kickstarter pledge is cheaper than the retail price, and that's the trouble : if it is only interesting on the Kickstarter, what do you think will happen once it hits the shops ? How do you convince new players to invest in that game more than another - "too bad you didn't pledge for the Kickstarter, now you have to pay the full price" ?
And yes, I think Mantic backers didn't expect to have that Kickstarter with such a low value. Which is why they are holding their wallets so far.
I like the look of the gribbly Stranger Things style monsters.
I also like KoW.
Like everyone else I'm struggling to see the value here, though.
Rules need to be as close to "free" in pricing as possible. I get that there is a cost to game development, and to art, and to printing. But if you're a wargames company you need to absorb a lot of that cost, and *still* do good quality rules, because the main purpose of your rules is to drive sales of your models. You want people to buy in to your rules and your world, and then want more minis. For me, KS best practice for miniatures wargames is that you ensure that every gamer who looks at your offering *cannot* justify saying "no" on price grounds, because the value looks incredible, because they can see that their money is getting them an amazing deal based just on the quality and quantity of miniatures. At that point the rules genuinely look free, and everyone loves free stuff. You have already convinced yourself this is a good deal and OMG FREE RULES TOO? We all know that rules are something of a lottery, and we also know that we already have lots of rules and so in fact it's not a dealbreaker if the rules are dreadful, anyway, because we can use these minis in other games. And that's another reason to keep that perception of the rules as a freebie, if you buy enough minis.
I would almost be at that point, if Mantic had a superb rep for minis quality. I like their plastic undead but am not a huge fan of anything else they've done, so it feels like the minis quality is going to be something of a lottery too. The terrain increases the value a fair bit for me -- it's why I'm almost at "hey, the rules are practically FREE" territory -- except that I already backed their TerrainCrate kickstarter, pretty heavily, for other games. And I think the TerrainCrate duplication is a significant problem. Most of the people who overlap between "skirmish gamers" and "Mantic fans" already have that same terrain on order. I backed enough so that I could think "I will never not have enough fantasy terrain again." I really don't need more. So, nope. Sitting this one out.
It's almost as if this KS is for a whole new game and for miniatures which haven't been put into production yet, eh?
Does it really need pointing out again that Kickstarter is for, well, kicking off projects? Are there really still people who think it's just a shop with curiously long postage times?
Okay, then. If I'm going to invest in this project, what's my return? Because it's certainly not going to be $85 worth of stuff at the open. Where's my incentive? This is a crowdfunding site for projects, not Patreon.
And if it's supposed to become a return worth the risk, I'm not seeing the signs at the current rate. Mantic's initial proposal has offered too little potential return on investment at the opening stage, even if successful!
This isn't a webstore preorder with guarantee of delivery, no. (Even though Mantic loves treating it like one.) It's also not a freaking charity.
I know Mantic can do better than this. I've backed better than this. I've never seen such a paltry initial offering of return on investment from any of their Kickstarters, and if they don't fix that, I don't think they're going to hit the eventual return on investment they're expecting, as they have in the past.
In this saturated market? Not good enough. If I want to pay twice as much as what I think a product is worth, I can get a Games Workshop skirmish game today.
Mantic's not earning my investment, here. It's on them to do that.
Necros wrote: I kinda feel like they should have done it more like a small campaign for just the printed rulebook with a PDF version free forever, and then had rules for making warbands out of all of the Kings of War factions where the idea is you use models from your KOW armies to build your warbands, rather than separate warband sets for Vanguard.
Do you think $130 is a competitive price for a 'standard' starter set? Honestly asking, because I know my own perceptions are locked in an old man grumpus version of c2000 pricing. To me, that feels like an instant no deal.
I'll be spending 40 bucks on the hard plastics for sure. I still want those Basilean characters...although I don't want to spend $85 because there is no $45 option.
The $85 two player starter is a no go for me because they dropped the most exciting minis from each faction. I guess I'm a bad gamer, but I just don't value the rules at all.
I know you're asking Doug, but that pricing is mental compared to the competition in HIPS, available both now and also what's going to be available in about three weeks. Oddly in comparison to yourself, I'm more interested in the rules than any of the models. Mantic's non-metal models don't hold a lot of intrinsic value to me as the best they've achieved has been "decent" to "pretty good" (and consistently improving) by my own standards. They're certainly no Putrid Blightkings, though.
Theophony wrote: They’ll make it, but when start ups break their funding goals in 24 hours or less and seam to be more with it from the get go with their KS it really is a bad show from an experienced group.
Not necessarily. The goal is to fund the rulebooks and tooling for the base game. You start blasting through funding goals and that creates more problems. People want more stuff, people complain when that stuff isn't free. Deadlines get pushed back(cure more complaining), shipping gets pushed up (yet more complaining), and if the company has other lines and games to serve - like mantic - that's all additional time taken away from those games.
Success is funding the project. More can be nice, but not always.
Tell that to the recent Shieldwolf and TMS miniature kickstarters. Both funded succesfully, but still the creators cancelled it before the kickstarter ended. I don't think "just" funding is something Mantic will be happy with.
I don't think they'll be happy. They no doubt plan for a certain funding range, and that in no way is in the realm of "barely funded". If it were to barely fund, or fun for a bit over (say $100k) I do not believe that Mantic would cancel the project, though. They're much more mature as Project Creators to do something like that. I think it'll likely do well enough over $100k, but it's clearly underperforming by Mantic's own metrics since their first stretch goal is now being given away for "free" as a "funding goal" to get the thing moving...
there are more miniatures (like the hard plastics) and The Horror/Sisterhood Scouts that are coming soon for the two-player set. Also, the book will be a 128-page book (the same size as Deadzone, which retails for $39.99 normally) whereas Battle of the Glades has a rulebook that retails for $19.99, plus you've got objective markers and dice, etc. And that's before we've finished with the campaign. That value will keep getting better!
P.S. I'm just the messenger here. I agree with your price comparison and as much as I'd like to see Vanguard succeed, I think this KS has not been handled well.
So there's the problem. Like always, the campaign has been set up based on any number of fake stretch goals. Compromising the initial offering so badly based on FSGs has (finally) started coming home to roost, though. And about bloody time.
And perhaps oddly, while I would probably be more interested in the rules here over anything else, I don't value an as-yet unwritten rulebook paid for a year in advance on Kickstarter anywhere near to the same value as a rulebook that's already in production and able to be critiqued and reviewed in full.
It funded and hit a stretch. Mantic seems to still be all in on this campaign. Too bad it's not picking up; daily totals are down. Mantic is hinting at a lot of stuff we might not see at this pace. Hope it picks up.
I pledged a dollar right now and I will go all in if Mantic confirms to me they will ship Royal Mail to Canada.
It would take $40 extra to upgrade the 2-player set to the 1-player warbands. That's $125 for those keeping track at home. For 2 warbands totalling 16 PVC minis, 10 hard plastic minis, and 6 resin minis. Oh, and a rulebook (presumably hardback?) and some bespoke dice.
Meanwhile Privateer Press is offer a 2-player skirmish box with 22 *metal* minis, 3 softcover rulebooks, and a pack of game cards for $75. Retail. Right now. Now waiting, no stretch goals.
Lets not even mention what you could get for Frostgrave (either flavor) for $125...
Has Ronnie actually seen this Kickstarter? What the hell is going on here?
At least the value has continued to rise. The scenery helps, as will the modular buildings. I hope they have some roof bits like Mars Attacks for some height advantage though.
Plus Company of Iron isn't metal, it's their gakky plastic I thought. Althought when you consider a single 10 man unit of that stuff is about 10 to 15 less than Company of Iron, it's still a pretty good deal.
Too bad it's totally sold out in my area. Would have given me an excuse to pick up some more Trollbloods.
At least there's some new Ogres to look forward to here!
highlord tamburlaine wrote: At least the value has continued to rise. The scenery helps, as will the modular buildings. I hope they have some roof bits like Mars Attacks for some height advantage though.
The way this is going a single sprue of ruins is probably all they'll be able to do. I don't foresee complete "unruined" buildings being part of the KS. I'll chip in $20 to $40 for some ruins if/when they unlock.
They're now talking about the possibility of 2 waves of shipping so all the new stuff doesn't hold up the curerently available stuff they've bunged in as add ons
not clear if this is going to be a paid for option, or just something they cover under the existing shipping costs
it must be frustrating that all their plans to simplify the KS and the eventual fulfilment have gone up in smoke but without the changes I don't see that this would have gone anywhere
Sisterhood Scouts make their appearance! Plus - Nightstalker Scarecrow Concepts
Ho! Vanguardians,
Great news! We've just passed the $85,000 mark and that means two Sisterhood Scouts have been added to the Basilean Warband in the Join the Vanguard pledge and the Two-Player Set.
Silently stalking ahead of the main warband, the whistle of the Sisterhood Scouts is often the first warning of danger for the other members of their retinue. Typically the first an enemy will know of a Scout's presence is the thud of an arrow through their chest, or the cold press of a knife against their throat.
For the next set of stretch goals, make sure you check the update earlier in which we've announced the next few stretch goals up to $100,000. The next goal on the horizon is the alternate weapons for the brutal Butcher, along with an extra miniature to use as a potential leader for your Nightstalkers warband.
SCARECROW CONCEPTS
Unfortunately we're still waiting on the renders of the hard plastic Nightstalker Scarecrows. However, we've got this piece of concept artwork, which should give you a good idea of the options you'll have when creating your Scarecrows.
Oh, and talking of artwork, a lot of you liked that piece of artwork earlier. So what about another to keep you going for a bit longer?
Man those scarecrows have potential, too bad they are literally shooting them in the foot with the whole flaming foot thing
Matt Gilbert 11 minutes ago
We will see if it’s possible on the second floor of the ruins but it will depend on whether there’s any space left on the tool!
As to GW - you left out 'And Crappy, Crappy Rules!' - which is the other thing that GW has become known for. (Let us be honest - the General's Handbook for AoS was pretty much a gigantic errata that the customers had to pay for. Hurray, GW!)
Guess you're forgetting what came after AoS. But seems like you conveniently just focused on this episode and think GW did nothing to these days.
Not forgetting - ignoring.
GW has lost me as a customer - and is going to have to go to extraordinary lengths to get me back.
Necromunda is an example of such an extraordinary step. This may well bring me back in.
The latest WH40K is not an extraordinary step. After three editions of increasingly crappy 40K rules, I sold off my army - and will not be returning to the game. (The last edition of 40K that I actually liked was 3rd.)
The attempt at Warhammer Quest is not an extraordinary step - it in no way looks like an improvement of the rules for the older game.
Board games in general are not an extraordinary step.
Betrayal at Caith - rules wise, was very much not an extraordinary step.
Shadow War Armageddon was not an extraordinary step - it did nothing that was not done better by the old Necromunda. (Again - the new Necromunda may well bring me back as a customer... but I am going to look long and hard before committing.)
Then go back to 7th and 8th editions of Warhammer Fantasy Battle - which left the game with such a fragmented fanbase that they ended up blowing up the setting.
They had killed the game that had made me a customer in the first place. (I had been a player since MacDeath.)
This is what they have become known for.
Then, on top of bad rules, they started suing left right and center, and exerting pressure even on their own fan sites.
So, I am standing by my statement - they lost me due to crappy crappy rules and terrible, terrible interactions with their market.
I am glad that Rountree is reversing much of this - but it does not undo the fact that GW did so in the first place, and continued doing so for over a decade - longer than Mantic has even been around..
So, GW, as far as I am concerned, is starting over from a negative position, built up over a decade and more.
Mantic carries no such baggage, and the rules that I have played from them have ranged from good to excellent. (A caveat - I have not played all Mantic rules - I have so far skipped Dungeon Saga and Warpath.)
On the average, their rules have been superior, in my opinion, to the bulk of GW's releases over the past decade - inclusive of the current releases..
Kings of War is clean, and actually makes an attempt at balance - with a lot of feedback from their market. I have not enjoyed a game of Warhammer as much since 2nd and 3rd editions.
And in many ways KoW is superior to those ancient rules - I have been able to teach KoW to nine year old players. (And was kind of miffed, last game - I was not needed. They just played, and never even had to ask me a question... I felt redundant.)
Dreadball may, in point of fact, be one of the best games that I do not like. (Great rules - but I can't stand the game.)
Deadzone... I liked 1st edition better than 2nd, but 2nd did address some pretty serious balance issues. (The pinning and cover rules in 1st edition Deadzone were kludgy - but I really liked them.)
***
Played a few games of the Alpha rules for Vanguard - not bad, not bad at all.
The real test is going to be the campaign rules - and that puts it in competition with Mordheim... which is my all time favorite table top miniatures game.
The game has been out of print for a decade and more - and I still run campaigns.
The Auld Grump
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Tentacles down their legs? Anyone else reminded of the novel Tommyknockers?
Actually... that seems a good fit for the night stalkers in general.
Late last night, and the night before,
Tommyknockers, Tommyknockers,
Knocking at my door.
I want to go out, don't know if I can.
I'm just too afraid of the tommyknocker man....
If you've not seen the latest update they've decided to change the $90k stretch goal to include about 5 more minis. If they are happy throwing the kitchen sink in now then why didn't they have a decent value pledge at the outset? I guess they had a reveal schedule that they have nowhere near stuck to due to their crappy initial offerings so now they have to just throw things in or we aren't going to see everything (like those northern alliance minis they already have sculpted up).
Looks like a dump of the wave of "fake stretch goals." The stuff that should have been in the sets from the start, because they were always intended to be in the retail.
I was expecting a panic update like this one soon. I honestly thought it'd come with Add-On Wednesday.
Looks like their usual method of skimping on the initial offering and assuming the usual skyrocketing stretch goals has combined with their development of some caution due over promising on early campaigns,to bite them on the ass this time.
With a terribly under-value initial offering + Kickstarter glut + a saturated fantasy skirmish market, they lost their usual "holy gak lookit all the miniatures I get!" initial buy-in wave. So we didn't blow through the first wave of fake stretch goals. So us $1 watchers have no reason to jump in, too. So...this KS hit the Mantic middle slump on Day 2 of 17...before funding completed.
I'm predicting that it won't be long before we get a video of "Crazy Ronnie" coming in to throw more stuff into the pledge levels.
Nostromodamus wrote: The more they throw in to try to get the total up, the more nervous I get about their ability to fulfill.
As everyone that whines about GW prices would know, once the mold and associated costs are paid, the sprues only cost a few pence/cents.
So, if the KS pays for the molds etc, then whether they toss in 3 sprues or 4, is hardly going to wreck fulfillment. Especially since most of the time, Mantic don't send out printed boxes, just sprues for KS spenders.
I just hope it's not like Dungeon Saga figure packs, where stuff comes in 2's but you need 3 for a KoW unit. I'm sure people would transition from Vanguard to KoW better if they realised they already had a full unit or two and bosses.
Regarding the tentacles on the scarecrows, someone in the comments had a brilliant idea that should be shared
Kevin G. VonFeldt wrote:If I may make a suggestion, what about instead of molding the tentacles onto the legs of the Scarecrows, putting tentacles on the plastic Scarecrows sprue similar to how orclings, imps, otters/frogs, and flames are on orcs, abyssals, naiads, and salamander sprues
Mantic seemed open to the idea
Mantic wrote:@Kevin - good idea, we'll see what we can do.
Why does EVERYONE in Mantica wear loincloth or have some kind of cloth dangling between their legs? It looks incredibly unpractical, especially if you are supposed to be some kind of ranger/scout. The heavy armor plates on the legs on the sister also look out of place on an otherwise ok model.
As everyone that whines about GW prices would know, once the mold and associated costs are paid, the sprues only cost a few pence/cents.
As per the posts here complaining at what the KS project is offering compared to established, already produced games, no, not everyone.
This is kind of a counter-intuitive argument. If it costs almost nothing to produce extra minis then why not make the initial kickstarter offerings worth the cost to backers? They were already using monopose minis, it wouldn't have hurt them to throw a few more repetitions of each in. I think most people are aware of the economics of miniatures, which is why they were so surprised at the lack of generosity from Mantic given that it would have cost them practically nothing to make the pledge levels more fair to backers.
The paltry offering is down to Mantic's strategy of starting small and throwing in the kitchen sink so as to build excitement during the course of the campaign. You can see it in the attempts of the community manager to try and steer topics onto things like "What scenarios do you want to see" when everyone is talking about the lack of value in the comments, or the desperation to make it sound like the project is rocketing along in each update, rather than crawling forward at a snails pace. If they can afford to start throwing handfuls of miniatures at backers now then it's certainly not concerns about price staying their hand at the beginning.
The real test is going to be the campaign rules - and that puts it in competition with Mordheim... which is my all time favorite table top miniatures game.
If they do the same than for Walking Dead or Dungeon Saga, then I suggest you to start getting disappointed. It will help in the end when you will see what the rules will be.
Face it : Vanguard is not intended to be like Mordheim. It's just a generic skirmish fantasy game, like there are so many on the market. It just means it will be the one made by Mantic.
Since you didn't play the other games, I can see why you have such a gullible view of Mantic's way of acting. They are no better than GW. In fact, I think they are worse because they don't have all the logistic GW can rely on for supporting their games.
The game has been out of print for a decade and more - and I still run campaigns.
Me too. And let's be honest, it's because there was so much content added after the initial game that it became so rich and inspiring. I don't see that for Vanguard. Why ? Because I see what they did so far for Kings of War. And I'm not impressed.
This Kickstarter will definitely be below Mantic's expectations. I'm pretty sure there will be delays, and I would even expect the stuff be on store when delivery won't be there for all the backers, as it becomes more and more common. Let's get real : the time of old generous Kickstarter is now in the past.
I wouldn't hold much hope on the material used for the miniatures either. I'm expecting crappy PVC like the one used for Walking Dead and Dungeon Saga for their "highly detailed" miniatures, sold with the "Skirmish Tax".
Slightly off topic, but as it has come up a few times now... Is there a website for Mordheim content, in the way Yaktribe collected EVERYTHING for Necromunda?
Nope. Individual sprues cost into the the tens of thousands to develop, monopose or otherwise. Times that by however many are being made and you have a significant upfront cost, which is where Kickstarter comes in. If the initial cost is not covered it's not economically worth it. If extra stuff was thrown in just to try and get people to pledge, then that initial cost goes up, which means they need a high target, and so on and so forth.
And that's just for the models. Add in rules, writers, artists and packaging. All need paying for. Which, again, is why I find it odd that there are still people who think kickstarter is a shopfront.
I'm wondering how the play of Vanguard compares to Star-Struck City that was published by the guys who do the Ironwatch for Kings of War. Because that one was not only professionally made, it's free and is supposed to play like a not-Mordheim and even uses KoW mechanics as a base. I have it downloaded, but haven't had a chance to play it.
AegisGrimm wrote: I'm wondering how the play of Vanguard compares to Star-Struck City that was published by the guys who do the Ironwatch for Kings of War. Because that one was not only professionally made, it's free and is supposed to play like a not-Mordheim and even uses KoW mechanics as a base. I have it downloaded, but haven't had a chance to play it.
Good point. If you have a go let us know how they stack up.
I would encourage others to do so! With two kids and moving into a new house in a couple of weeks-not to mention upcoming holidays- my gametime will be slim for the next two months.
Nope. Individual sprues cost into the the tens of thousands to develop, monopose or otherwise. Times that by however many are being made and you have a significant upfront cost, which is where Kickstarter comes in. If the initial cost is not covered it's not economically worth it. If extra stuff was thrown in just to try and get people to pledge, then that initial cost goes up, which means they need a high target, and so on and so forth.
And that's just for the models. Add in rules, writers, artists and packaging. All need paying for. Which, again, is why I find it odd that there are still people who think kickstarter is a shopfront.
You missed the point. The cost of creating the molds/tooling isn’t the issue, it’s the fact that producing the spruces from the molds is very cheap. Mantica shouldn’t be only giving backers 1 sprue and then offering an additional sprue as a stretch goal, sprue are cheap so if the backers are paying for the molds they should be rewarded with lots of sprues.
It seems to me like Mantic wasn’t sure what to do with this KS, keep the model count low in pledges because it’s a skirmish game or use the KS campaign to produce KoW troops units in HIPS. If the backers are supposed to be enticed by getting enough models to have multiple KoW units in their Vanguard war bands in the pledges then is Vanguard a skirmish game or just low point value KoW scenarios in a campaign?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: That's the stupidest sword I've seen not on a Privateer Press mini. I really hope they don't go with that.
That`s sword shaming! So what if her sword isn`t sharp or even thin, and infact just is an iron bar with a guard. Pop culture made katanas popular, and they are basically the same thing, but with 1 sharpened side. (really though, katanas sucked as a weapon)
She is also about to ride a bicycle. Look at her knee gear! What really puzzles me are random 3d brush strokes on cloth.
I don't think it's fair to complain about a sword being too thick on a model of this size. I'ts not possible to make literally true scaled swords in 28mm scale.
An actual historical sword is rarely thicker than 5mm at most, (and usually less). Scale that down to 28mm, which is roughly 1:56 and you have a sword that's 0,1mm thick at it's thickest. Which is obviously not possible and overwhelmingly impractical.
Now, the design is a bit stupid, but IMO no more so than a hugely oversized double-headed. And people never bat an eye at those in basically any fantasy model ange in existance.
That sisters sword is a hybrid between a longsword and a mace. Sacrificing the nimbleness and thrusting capabilities of a pointed and tapered tip in return for some for anti-armour capability. Similar to the uruk-hai swords of the LotR movies.
It's not a hugely practical design, but imagine it being a more realistic thickness and it's a far better weapon than something like this:
or this:
Let be fair to him, he did acknowledge and adress the problems with the KS, and the abyssian force does add a decent value to the 85$ pledges.
It also make the original pledge into an effective 2 players one with basileans and abyssals forces (classical opponents), and the 2 players pledge become a 3 player one.
Sure, it would have been better to have them from the start, but better late than never.
In any case I don't regreat my current pledge and will probably add 20$ for the new abyssal resin once they are reveled.
I think it's more of an odd choice to have scouts that are equipped with leather armor and cloaks, ostensibly to be stealthy, also have large ornate greaves and carry two handed swords that are 5' long.
The new Basileans have too much of a War Machine aesthetic for me.
I'm hoping that the Nightstalker warband become more appealing as the campaign goes on and I'll jump in with a late pledge.
A Northern Alliance warband would get me to pledge for sure but I don't know if the campaign will fund enough to unlock it.
DaveC wrote: Starter Abyssal warband added to both of the $85 pledge levels.
Lower Abyssals are the existing HIPs sprue the rest are new sculpts in PVC. The 3 character options for this warband will be a $20 resin add on.
So this is in HIPS - that's cool. Does that mean there are options for multiposes and weapons and such? Has anyone who plays Abyssals comment on how these figures are? I'm now pretty happy with my 2 player pledge, and hopefully we'll get a few more goodies added by the end of the campaign
Thanks for any thoughts on the Abyssal HIPS sprue!
The Lower Abyssal sprue is pretty nice- you've got options for making the ranged magical ones, or melee weapons wielding ones. Plus the mascot figures!
DaveC wrote: Starter Abyssal warband added to both of the $85 pledge levels.
Ah, I didn't get this at first.
Initially I thought it was just adding an option to get Abyssals instead of either Nightstalkers or Basileans, but it's indeed added to both the $85 pledges.
That does add a fair bit of value. I'll be a lot less likely to cancel my initial pledge now
DaveC wrote: Starter Abyssal warband added to both of the $85 pledge levels.
Lower Abyssals are the existing HIPs sprue the rest are new sculpts in PVC. The 3 character options for this warband will be a $20 resin add on.
So this is in HIPS - that's cool. Does that mean there are options for multiposes and weapons and such? Has anyone who plays Abyssals comment on how these figures are? I'm now pretty happy with my 2 player pledge, and hopefully we'll get a few more goodies added by the end of the campaign
Thanks for any thoughts on the Abyssal HIPS sprue!
jtrowell wrote: Let be fair to him, he did acknowledge and adress the problems with the KS, and the abyssian force does add a decent value to the 85$ pledges.
It also make the original pledge into an effective 2 players one with basileans and abyssals forces (classical opponents), and the 2 players pledge become a 3 player one.
Sure, it would have been better to have them from the start, but better late than never.
In any case I don't regreat my current pledge and will probably add 20$ for the new abyssal resin once they are reveled.
Oh, he absolutely addressed and apologized for the shortcomings. That's how the "Crazy Ronnie" narrative always works. When a Mantic campaign stalls out too hard to deny (which usually happens in the middle of a campaign, not the start,) Ronnie comes in with acknowledgements that they should be offering more, and now he's going to make the deals so good it's craaaaazy, just like Crazy Ronnie! Then things get rolling again. It's standard Mantic Kickstarter procedure.
I'm just shocked at how they let this one stall out on day 2. As you note, the initial pledge is now a two player starter, and the two player starter pledge has three warbands now. Just to armchair Kickstarter manager a bit here, they should have made the initial offering the rulebook, the two basic PVC warbands, and one of the Terrain Crate sets - let's say the hedges and fences. Oh, and the entire PVC sets for the Basileans and Nightstalkers, not the intitial handful of PVC minis. This is what I suspect the retail box will look like, anyway. Then make the resins, the objectives, the alt-sculpts, and the extra terrain the fake stretch goals. Start off with a two player game, not a one player hobby project.
Instead, they got stingy on the minis at the beginning because...I don't know. They were so proud of the resins they wanted them in there to start? I don't get why they made the mistake, but it cost them the early momentum before the stall-out. It's a lot better now, but I note it still takes $150 to get all three warbands with the resins included, but going with the initial pledge + $45 second warband, + $20 resin Abyssals. I don't think that hits the "Mantic value" level, much less the "Mantic Kickstarter value" level.
The real value seems to be in the $20 KoW warbands. In most of those, the two character models alone retail at over $20USD together.
The real value seems to be in the $20 KoW warbands. In most of those, the two character models alone retail at over $20USD together.
I guess. But then, they are made with already existing miniatures and having to wait one year before the delivery is kinda...a bit useless. You will say they need to have time to finish the rules and balance the cards, obviously, but the rules don't need a year to be finished. It's obviously the new sculpts that need all the production time.
Truth is, the big pledges are only appealing to the players wanting to play a Basilean, Abyssal or Nightmare warband. If you just want the rules, pledging is not that interesting in the end. Since the project is funded, you will have them in your shops in the end. Miniatures you don't need and won't get that much value to sell in second hand (Mantic products really have a bad value in that matter) aren't that interesting to hoard.
As everyone that whines about GW prices would know, once the mold and associated costs are paid, the sprues only cost a few pence/cents.
As per the posts here complaining at what the KS project is offering compared to established, already produced games, no, not everyone.
You do know my reply was to someone worrying that the kickstarter would derail if we got too many extra sprues right? My point being, once Mantic have paid for the molds, the extra price for a few sprues is cheap.
DaveC wrote: Starter Abyssal warband added to both of the $85 pledge levels.
Lower Abyssals are the existing HIPs sprue the rest are new sculpts in PVC. The 3 character options for this warband will be a $20 resin add on.
So this is in HIPS - that's cool. Does that mean there are options for multiposes and weapons and such? Has anyone who plays Abyssals comment on how these figures are? I'm now pretty happy with my 2 player pledge, and hopefully we'll get a few more goodies added by the end of the campaign
Thanks for any thoughts on the Abyssal HIPS sprue!
The plastics are good quality, although the design is love it or hate it. The faces come in either classic "Red Hot" devil or Ghoulie flavors. The torsos and legs are all of a piece, with large hooves. They have swords and axes and other interesting weapons, but not enough to equip them all with the same choice. Shields are optional thick squares with demon faces.
Personally, I think they are really fun plastics, but likely to get samey if you assemble twenty or more.
Prestor Jon wrote: I think it's more of an odd choice to have scouts that are equipped with leather armor and cloaks, ostensibly to be stealthy, also have large ornate greaves and carry two handed swords that are 5' long.
If you’ve got an 8’ Ogre with you that’s wearing full plate I think concerns about taking a stealthy approach have long since left the building.
When Mantic finally publish the rules for the Zombie Troll Shaman in KoW I’ll be open to believing they actually read what they write, but until then I wouldn’t worry to much about that sort of thing
Apparently Goblins forego training scouts etc for just churning out wizards like Henry Ford was secretly a small green humanoid too.......
Prestor Jon wrote: I think it's more of an odd choice to have scouts that are equipped with leather armor and cloaks, ostensibly to be stealthy, also have large ornate greaves and carry two handed swords that are 5' long.
If you’ve got an 8’ Ogre with you that’s wearing full plate I think concerns about taking a stealthy approach have long since left the building.
When Mantic finally publish the rules for the Zombie Troll Shaman in KoW I’ll be open to believing they actually read what they write, but until then I wouldn’t worry to much about that sort of thing
Apparently Goblins forego training scouts etc for just churning out wizards like Henry Ford was secretly a small green humanoid too.......
The Ogres in full plate were identified as "Palace Guards" in the artwork and the renders of the women at arms were called out as being "Scouts" so since Mantic chose that terminology intentionally I assumed that the women were supposed to be stealthy and the ogres are supposed to be intimidating heavy infantry. If you have ogre palace guards fighting with stealthy rangers/scouts in the same warband of less than 2 dozen miniatures that's got to be pretty scenario specific, like the VIP went hunting with a small group of scouts and guards and was ambushed or something. Heavy infantry and scouts wouldn't normally be in close proximity to each other since both have their weakness/strengths inverted, scouts are stealthy but soft, heavy infantry are tanky but loud.
Prestor Jon wrote: I think it's more of an odd choice to have scouts that are equipped with leather armor and cloaks, ostensibly to be stealthy, also have large ornate greaves and carry two handed swords that are 5' long.
If you’ve got an 8’ Ogre with you that’s wearing full plate I think concerns about taking a stealthy approach have long since left the building.
When Mantic finally publish the rules for the Zombie Troll Shaman in KoW I’ll be open to believing they actually read what they write, but until then I wouldn’t worry to much about that sort of thing
Apparently Goblins forego training scouts etc for just churning out wizards like Henry Ford was secretly a small green humanoid too.......
The Ogres in full plate were identified as "Palace Guards" in the artwork and the renders of the women at arms were called out as being "Scouts" so since Mantic chose that terminology intentionally I assumed that the women were supposed to be stealthy and the ogres are supposed to be intimidating heavy infantry. If you have ogre palace guards fighting with stealthy rangers/scouts in the same warband of less than 2 dozen miniatures that's got to be pretty scenario specific, like the VIP went hunting with a small group of scouts and guards and was ambushed or something. Heavy infantry and scouts wouldn't normally be in close proximity to each other since both have their weakness/strengths inverted, scouts are stealthy but soft, heavy infantry are tanky but loud.
In the art, the greaves are also leather, so just paint them that way.
Yes there will be a pledge manager as usual, it has been mentionned that it would be opened after the holidays so that people have some time to recover from them
Those look actually nice. If the sprue and plastic end looking like the Render and they have a similar price, I can see myself buying a gak-ton of those to do a Stromgarde-Warcraft army
Galas wrote: Those look actually nice. If the sprue and plastic end looking like the Render and they have a similar price, I can see myself buying a gak-ton of those to do a Stromgarde-Warcraft army
I know, right! These could be a big hit if the HIPS measure up to the renders.
They should also be a good fit for whatever regular humans are called in AoS. They'd fit in pretty well as human militia alongside the sigmarine elite units I believe.
Everyone's Getting Stoned! New Nightstalker Spectres Unveiled!
Ho! Vanguardians,
Yesterday was another fantastic day, with almost 100 brand new Vanguardians backing the Kickstarter. Welcome aboard and thanks for the support - you've joined at a great time and next week promises to be very special.
Thanks to all these new backers, overnight we've smashed through another stretch goal and you've now unlocked three Stone Runes, which will be added to the Join the Vanguard Pledge and the Two-Player Set. These towering runes will form the basis of a Vanguard scenario in the rulebook.
We're also approaching the next stretch goal - the terrifying Abyssal Despoiler… an awful mix of crab and demon! This resin monster will be added to the Abyssal Resin pack, which is available to add to your pledges for $20. Remember, we'll also be creating rules to use the new Despoiler in Kings of War too.
After the Despoiler, we've got the fantastic stretch goal of five extra Men at Arms in the Basilean Warband and Two-Player Starter Set. What's more, you'll also get new weapon options on the sprue so you can create spearmen, swordsmen and crossbowmen.
Of course, it seems a little unfair that the Nightstalkers are potentially about to be outnumbered by the Basileans, so at $130,000 we'll be giving you FIVE extra hard plastic Nightstalkers. Plus - and here's the exciting news - the hard plastic Nightstalkers sprue will now create the shuffling Scarecrows or the ghostly Spectres, so you can choose a mix of the two when putting them together.
And that's not all, thanks to some technical wizardry we're also pleased to announce the Nightstalkers hard plastic sprue can be combined with our existing zombie hard plastic sprue, just in case you want to swap out the legs or torsos.
Remember, you can add a regiment of the Scarecrows/Spectres to your pledge for $20. Simply click 'manage my pledge' and increase the total by the amount required. Once we send the pledge manager round, you can use any extra credit on the optional extras you want.
Have you got the stomach for the Spectres?
Well now we know why the scarecrows have tentacle feet
Why ? The screcrow are still based on the very same picture that we already know, we simply now know that the kit will have alternative arms and head to make spectre too.
I was hoping they were going to take on board the requests to make the flames/tentacles on the legs optional as many had suggested/requested and which mantic appeared to be receptive to
(although to be fair they didn't actually agree to do it)
with the announcement of the dual kit it's clear why they are there, and any real chance of getting normal legs with add on tentales/flames is gone
the idea of animated Scarecrows was always something I did not liked about the Nightstalker list
but ScareCrow daemons or spectres is something that fits
Not sure how the fleshy and somewhat squat Mantic Zombie legs will work when combined with the new kit to make effective looking Scarecrows. When combined with the ethereal flamey bits it seems like the worst of both worlds to me. I guess that time will tell but in the tradition of Dakka it seems like an extremely Mantic...Almost type solution.
The M@A sprue and the Scarecrows were added at $75,000 (funding goal) to get things moving there's been no actual stretch goal to fund them. Whilst the crossbows and spectre parts were always planned to be on the sprue and it is a "fake" stretch goal the extra $5,000 will go some way towards covering the cost of the HIPs tool which haven't actually been funded yet. For what Mantic have to produce I don't think $120,000 is even break even yet. They've (finally) front loaded some stuff that they'll need to cover the costs of in the last few days.
Anyone know what a HIPS tool costs these days? the KS has so far committed to producing 3 of them.
DaveC wrote: The M@A sprue and the Scarecrows were added at $75,000 (funding goal) to get things moving there's been no actual stretch goal to fund them. Whilst the crossbows and spectre parts were always planned to be on the sprue and it is a "fake" stretch goal the extra $5,000 will go some way towards covering the cost of the HIPs tool which haven't actually been funded yet. For what Mantic have to produce I don't think $120,000 is even break even yet. They've (finally) front loaded some stuff that they'll need to cover the costs of in the last few days.
Anyone know what a HIPS tool costs these days? the KS has so far committed to producing 3 of them.
EDIT: you edited your post before I hit submit
That is assuming that they did not plan out two different versions of the frames - with and without the added pieces.
Until the tool is made, it is possible to have plans for many different possible configurations - but the more complex the tool, the more expensive it will be to produce it.
That said - they look a lot better as scarecrows, to me at least, so I will likely use the RAFM Dream Warriors instead.
The additions to the M@A on the other hand... make that set a lot more useful for me.
That dead spy sculpt makes no sense, it's literally a horse and rider in a gallop lying on their side. Doesn't look like either of them actually died, they were encased in carbonite mid-gallop.
It might be the angle. The horses pose looks reasonably natural to a fallen one to me.
The rider should probably have had his left arm splayed out to the other side. I think they're going for a 'clutching his wound' pose, but it's not spot on.
I hadn't looked closely at it but you're right, I don't see how the rider could end up in that position (its the leg still over the horse that's the problem) it would have been better to have him beside the horse - which might take up to much space in the tool or slumped over the horse which would have a smaller footprint. Actually even just removing the leg and having the horse lying on the rider would look better.
It’s because he’s a SPY. He is just pretending to be dead and waiting for the soldiers to pass him up so he and the horse can stand back up and gallop away
You know, I'm a touch confused by what the goal here is for the Nightstalkers and Northern Alliance.
The funding of the spectrecrow sprue suggests they want to expand these forces into KoW. But a lot of the units are one or two sculpt PVC models. Are they going to try and package 5 identical PVC shadow hounds in a KoW box? Or are they going to consign people who want to play KoW nightstalkers into buying multiple Vanguard warbands to deal with identical sculpt units?
It's all a bit muddled between two games.
But I do have to be fair after complaining about the value of the pledges - I think they're getting close, even if there's a bit of a 'skirmish tax'. They should have started with two warbands in the base pledge all along, instead of having it be the 'Crazy Ronnie' maneuver.
A bunch of the abyssal stuff started like this with dungeon saga, just one pose in pvc then a multipart kit was later released for KoW. For instance the molochs and hellhounds.
Zywus wrote: I think some (hopefully all) of the stuff in 3's and 5's of identical artwork will not be identical models.
If so, this could obviously be communicated better.
I think Mantic mentioned heads and weapons/arms can be posed. They specifically spoke about the Abbysal Hellequin where the horse and torso will be identical for each mini, just the heads and arms can be posed.
Also, from one of the updates regarding Basileans:
"Even better, we'll also be putting some different arm and head options into the Basilean Warband so you can give even more character to your retinue."
If I got the two player pledge and the $20 resin upgrades, would I get all the Basilean sculpts/minis? Do I need to add $20 for the HIPS Basileans, too?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: If I got the two player pledge and the $20 resin upgrades, would I get all the Basilean sculpts/minis? Do I need to add $20 for the HIPS Basileans, too?
The 2-player warbands have everything except the resin uppgrades, so the 2 player set plus the $20 resin basilean upgrades gives you all Basilean models. (plus nightstalker and abyssal warbands, lacking their resin upgrades)
At $140,000 we'll be adding five hard plastic Succubi to the Abyssals. There was a little bit of confusion when we first announced this goal. There are actually three different types of Succubi in the Abyssals warband:
Succubus Seductress (resin leader)
Succubus Lurkers (PVC plastic)
Succubi (hard plastic) - these are the ones that will be added to the Abyssals at $140,000 and they're actually our existing hard plastic miniatures.
New goal revealed
An exclusive book cover for backers
Also, it looks like there'll be a warband revealed for the Northern alliance.
Judging from the comments, a pic of the warband was temporarily shown by mistake, but I wasn't around then.
We now have this pic instead.
But it seems like the NA will be upon us after the weekend.
Finally gave the vanguard kickstarter the once-over and I think I'm gonna pass.I might pick up the rulebook in the future (and likely at the same or a cheaper price than the kickstarter) but for now I'll hold off.
I'm already swimming in fantasy figures -both painted and unpainted- and though the figs are nice enough, there's nothing in the current range that excites me. Further, I've already got warband games (Song of Blades and Frostgrave) and Platoon (Dragon Ramapnt) that I really enjoy and even though I'm enjoying our club's Walking Dead Campaign (for which the GM is providing everything)...
https://www.chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/2017/11/10/the-scenic-route-a-walking-dead-campaign-chapter-2-up-nw/... I'm not sure I want to buy any more games with special dice.
That said, I've been happy with Mantic KS's in the past for the most part, so I'm sure the kickstarter is well worth it. Just not for me.
If I'm not mistaken, the bonus Abyssal warband in the 2 player starter and Join the Vanguard pledges does not include the character models. So I'd have to add them separately, right?
The Northern Alliance is interesting. Would like to know more about them than the couple of paragraphs in the HC rulebook.
About the scarecrows, for people who dislike the tentacles (not flames) on the legs, note that they mentionned that the kit would be compatible with their zombie sprue, and that using zombie heads and arms on scarecrow bodies would make very nice doppelgangers, but in theory this should mean that you might be able to use scarecrow heads on zombies (or ghouls ?) bodies too for those wanting tentatcle-less scarecrows (and still have the rest of both kits to make spectres or doppelgagners)
Ancestral Hamster wrote: If I'm not mistaken, the bonus Abyssal warband in the 2 player starter and Join the Vanguard pledges does not include the character models. So I'd have to add them separately, right?.
Yup.
Although, if you want all the models, it's perhaps better to pledge for the 'Join the vanguard' pledge instead and add the second Warband and abyssall characters as add-ons. That's $5 more but you get all the terrain crate stuff.
jtrowell wrote: About the scarecrows, for people who dislike the tentacles (not flames) on the legs, note that they mentionned that the kit would be compatible with their zombie sprue, and that using zombie heads and arms on scarecrow bodies would make very nice doppelgangers, but in theory this should mean that you might be able to use scarecrow heads on zombies (or ghouls ?) bodies too for those wanting tentatcle-less scarecrows (and still have the rest of both kits to make spectres or doppelgagners)
I am still unsure how rotting fleshy legs from zombies are any more fitting for scarecrows than the original tentacle/flame ones. Plus effectively paying double to make effective models seems equally off.
I'd prefer 4 proper scarecrows and 4 proper spectres in the sprue, that's just 1 part more on the sprue than 5 dual bodies (8 legs, 8 torsos vs 5 legs, 10 torsos)
lord_blackfang wrote: I'd prefer 4 proper scarecrows and 4 proper spectres in the sprue, that's just 1 part more on the sprue than 5 dual bodies (8 legs, 8 torsos vs 5 legs, 10 torsos)
I thought specters were just a head+arm change.
Automatically Appended Next Post: New Giant pledge level for $150.
You basically get a free giant if you planned on going all in anyway. Very nice update.
Supposed to be in plastic and as large as the Mars Attacks stompy robot, which was a pretty good size.
Available as a separate add on...
Or as part of the new Giant pledge available too.
Spoiler:
New pledge is basically all 3 Warbands (Basilean, Abyssal, Nightstalker) with all the resins included, the giant, and all the terrain crate scenery as well.
Not a bad little deal at that price then. May have to up my pledge.
What would certainly be crazy is if the Northern Alliance stuff ends up included in the pledge as well!
"Plastic" why can't Mantic just come out and say what type of plastic why the big secret it's clearly going to be PVC for the price and funding required.
The Martian one was hard plastic, but it was also desprued and preassembled in the factory like a similar sized action figure, so it was easy to miss that.
It was desprued, yes, but I don't think it was assembled. Maybe the torso. I remember having to get the legs aligned
If they went that route with the giant that could work. Solid core, clipped limbs... my concern is having enough options to build it more than one way.
We got a chest, hips, 2 arms, and 2 legs in a bag (plus the dome and pilots), so not "assembled", but each of those things was 2 parts on the sprue (front and back, or left and right), which were glued together in the factory, so all the tell-tale pin marks were hidden away on the inside of the final body parts.
Mars Attacks was sold as a boardgame though, which means minimum assembly for the player, they won't need to go that far making a giant for two out and out miniatures games. If it's hard plastic on a sprue, they'll leave it on the sprue, or do the desprue-and-bag job like the Warpath vehicles.
DaveC wrote: "Plastic" why can't Mantic just come out and say what type of plastic why the big secret it's clearly going to be PVC for the price and funding required.
I was just about to ask for clarification here!
If Mantic says 'Resin', does that mean similar to FW resin?
If Mantic says "Hard Plastic" they mean HIPs ala GW?
If Mantic doesn't mention a material, they mean PVC?
Also, has the 3' x 3' paper mat been hinted at going to Mousepad material? Even if only as an add on?
Or was that too expensive in terms of shipping last time around to make sense here?
I'm a huge fan of the design, many schemes around great gobs of monowheels cruising about. Happy to hear the cast / material came out well.
. Possibly kingdom death related.
