I think it ties to their ongoing poor general grasp of technology and broader communication. Since one on one methods (calling them, talking in person) are the best way to get in touch and have things answered, it makes for a bit of a feedback loop where they enjoy talking to a person and letting slip a little detail or two, and in turn, the person feels like they're "in the know" and have the inside scoop.
Both parties walk away feeling pretty good. And yet, somewhere in the distance, thousands of people clamouring for info are not only ignored, but some end up feeling slighted that they practically need to be 'buds' to get info. It's a clique'ish way of providing information, and not remotely healthy for what is supposed to be reaching out to broaden their fan base.
Dakka's highest participation point, according to the front page, was nearly 35,000 users online at once back in March of this year. PB's highest was 225 in April of 2006. Imagine this game is a huge success (somehow, I know, much like my controversial FFG day dream, stick with me here). Imagine even 10% of a population the size of Dakka's hits their forums, with battle reports, stories to tell, tournaments and leagues to organize, rants to share (fething overpowered __________'s!), conversations to have... that'd be a deluge that would change the makeup of their online presence irrevocably.
Hell, a mere 1% of Dakka's peak would still be 150% of their previous maximum! One percent, would be a tidal wave of new people! And presumably they expect more than a couple thousand players globally.
And with their glorious 'first few posts must be approved by a moderator', I can only imagine the sheer dawning horror that would come across the eyes of those working on it at the time.
Bad_Syntax wrote: I think it would be absolutely hilarious if these huge complaints got an influx of cash in their bank account as PB said "Well, since you were so unhappy here is a full refund".
Good. They should. I imagine those people would be happy, since that's what's been requested.
I will be getting a few folks in my battletech group to play a demo *hopefully* next weekend, they are pretty close to "normal", well, as far as gamers go.
As a battletech player, reading these rules made me vomit in my mouth a little.
Bad_Syntax wrote: I think it would be absolutely hilarious if these huge complaints got an influx of cash in their bank account as PB said "Well, since you were so unhappy here is a full refund".
Good. They should. I imagine those people would be happy, since that's what's been requested.
I will be getting a few folks in my battletech group to play a demo *hopefully* next weekend, they are pretty close to "normal", well, as far as gamers go.
As a battletech player, reading these rules made me vomit in my mouth a little.
Come now. Certainly you'd always wished for parrying and rolling with punch rules in Robotech? Sure, the current set I have is about 1000 pages across three hardcovers...but that's because BT just doesn't have the streamlined, glorious simplicity of a Palladium Books system.
What's funny is that refunds are basically doubling their money at this point.
Think of it this way; a Battle Cry contains roughly $360 MSRP worth of stuff (core box, 2 VT packs, 2 battlepod packs, 1 spartan/phalanx pack, 1 command pod pack, 1 support pod pack) *in wave one alone*. Even cut in half, that means people paid $125 (after KS/Amazon's cuts) for ~$180 worth of stuff at wholesale (1/2 MSRP) prices, and again, that's before even glancing at all of wave two (which is like hundreds more).
So in exchange for giving people back $125, they get to keep $180 worth of stuff to sell to distributors/shops, or flat out $360 worth of stuff to sell at full price on their store. They could better than double their money with refunds, or at least snag a tidy 20-30%.
On wave one!
If they were really that excited, if distributors and shop owners were really gushing about how amazing it is, they'd take that deal in a heartbeat. And none of this "maybe they spent all the KS money already" bull. For a 150-300% Return on Investment (give or take a bit), they'd be crazy not to! They got the money up front as an interest free loan to produce the stuff, and then they toss the money back (minus KS's fees) and enjoy the extra stock they just picked up. Remember, they had retailers talking to PB about how concerned they were that RRT stuff would sell out! Hey, let a couple dozen backers out of the deal and suddenly you've got a little extra supply to move at a pretty solid markup!
It's crazy pants to not take that kind of deal! Even if they're whole sale selling in the 40-45% range, they're still ahead of the game, at least at my napkin math. Trading $125 for $125 worth of product extra to sell (possibly at full price) would be a fantastic deal! Purely a win/win!
... unless maybe, just maybe, they're not quite as certain as they like to say they are.
Maybe they just don't have the product. In all honesty, PB sometimes reminds me of Defiance, where the owner is a lot more talk than action, where they have some very overly dedicated fans back before they blew everything into ---- and supposedly, the owner of defiance was quite friendly and nice when people met him too.
Swabby wrote: You know guys, it just dawned on me, but this ruleset represents a revision of the old Palladium system in a way does it not?
Well, PB only has the RPG license for Robotech, and KS recopypastas everything so... sure!
Good point by Forar. Random speculation to explain why PB needs money: they may have made only a partial payment (cf. down-payment) to the manufacturer; PB paid additional fees for being late or making rush jobs; Increasing shipping fees; PB using the Robotech money for other company uses; PB employee using Robotech money for another crisis, etc. etc. Project management includes cash flow, and I don't think PB has handled this much money before. Just easier to say "no refunds" to avoid the *perceived* hassles of changing orders.
Swabby wrote: You know guys, it just dawned on me, but this ruleset represents a revision of the old Palladium system in a way does it not?
I think anyone who thought otherwise did not understand what the project was in the first place. It is called Robotech RPT Tactics for a reason.
Goodness!
With the pages of discussions over the rules and comparators to existing tabletop games, I do not remember some direction of "remember we must be using the RPG rules!".
Many backers would have run screaming if that was made more clear.
It seemed the RPG stuff was little more than "guidelines" with hit points / damage being a factor of megadamage points but I guess seeing the rules when they came out it is all clear now.
So the "fun" of the old RPG is continued in tabletop "RPG"... utter genius.
Glad my friends are going all psycho on Battletech again, it may be a good comparator in the coming months.
I know I can be slow with things on occasion but I swear it was only in the last couple weeks it became clear that the Tactics game could only come out as an extension of the RPG.
You may point to the name giving a clue but I swear I thought it was just a way for Kevin to tie-in / point-to his RPG stuff since that is still where his heart and soul is at.
Anyway, I will play the full game (when/if I see it), play 3 games straight-up and then I suspect house-rule the heck out of it.
Forar: we will compare notes at some time and will need to meet-up for a game, it could be exciting to compare the "challenges" of the game.
Swabby wrote: You know guys, it just dawned on me, but this ruleset represents a revision of the old Palladium system in a way does it not?
I think anyone who thought otherwise did not understand what the project was in the first place. It is called Robotech RPT Tactics for a reason.
Goodness!
With the pages of discussions over the rules and comparators to existing tabletop games, I do not remember some direction of "remember we must be using the RPG rules!".
Many backers would have run screaming if that was made more clear.
It seemed the RPG stuff was little more than "guidelines" with hit points / damage being a factor of megadamage points but I guess seeing the rules when they came out it is all clear now.
So the "fun" of the old RPG is continued in tabletop "RPG"... utter genius.
Glad my friends are going all psycho on Battletech again, it may be a good comparator in the coming months.
I know I can be slow with things on occasion but I swear it was only in the last couple weeks it became clear that the Tactics game could only come out as an extension of the RPG.
You may point to the name giving a clue but I swear I thought it was just a way for Kevin to tie-in / point-to his RPG stuff since that is still where his heart and soul is at.
Anyway, I will play the full game (when/if I see it), play 3 games straight-up and then I suspect house-rule the heck out of it.
Forar: we will compare notes at some time and will need to meet-up for a game, it could be exciting to compare the "challenges" of the game.
Well I'd read the RPG rules over 20 years ago and it was patently obvious. Anyone that I know that has played the RPG could see that. But that being said. The whole 8 different HtH attack and where those came in form well over 100 pages ago should have clued people in. The rules are not a direct port but much of the basics as well as all the unit stats are all direct translations from RPG 2E. The Main Body MDC/25 is the game MD. The Max weapon damage in a melee(turn)/20 is how much weapon can do. That's why I've said there was no way to do a "Minis" game. This is a port from the RPG to a tabletop game and is very carefully labeled as such.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I plan on trying out with the Robotech theme
Mekton (Waiting for my KS Pledge)
Alpha Strike (Already have both books)
Heavy Gear (Not jumping at what I've read of the rules so far)
CAV (Just got the free early release rules from their KS)
RTT
Whichever one works best for me is what I'll go with.
Mekton--don't know yet
Alpha Strike not designed for Anime style fighting but will test.
Heavy Gear -- with all the detection rules could make for a long playing and tedious game. I hope not.
CAV -- been a while, will need to reread rules.
Talizvar wrote: Forar: we will compare notes at some time and will need to meet-up for a game, it could be exciting to compare the "challenges" of the game.
Yeah, perhaps it's just a perception thing, but it used to feel like PB was shoehorn'ing in the RPG aspect. It's become clearer more recently that they *had* to do it, not that they *wanted* to do it. Then again, the end result is what really matters, so while it's interesting in an academic sense to see where they came from and how they got there, the pertinent issue is how fun it actually is, how fast it actually plays, etc.
Hell, at least they didn't go with their simply insane "attacks per melee" system. The "spend a command point, get to fire an extra weapon" thing glances at it, but that gak goes downhill quickly.
And totally. At the very least, get a little game down and enjoy a few drinks reminiscing over what was and what could have been.
Veterans of what may end up a 2-3 year adventure in shenanigans.
I noticed it was sold to backers as a miniatures game. Suddenly GC 2014 comes around and it's now an RPG inspired game. It kinda feels like a bait an switch.
Forar wrote: FFG. Man, that could've been a hell of a thing.
Let it go man, in that path lies madness.
My brain is still boggling over if they produced painted miniatures like in X-wing. Then properly printed cards, punch-out tokens... let it go...
Keep in mind that each veritech would have been $40-45 though... three modes/models for one "in game" model unless they resorted to using a token (least likely) or separate dial (more likely) to represent the actual mode it is in. Either way, it would be either expensive or visually inferior to x-wing... but the rules would be elegant.
Oh, that definitely crossed my mind, but that could be adjusted simply by using smaller numbers of figures.
I mean, small X-Wing ships often seem to fall in the $15 apiece range, but finding them for $10 isn't impossible. $30'ish for a single ship wouldn't exactly be great, but only eventually wanting to get ahold of 3-4 of them wouldn't be any more terrible than buying a squad or two of X-Wings really. Moreso if they had a similar Core Box with 1 VT and a couple Battlepods. It'd be more expensive than the XW Core (with 5-6 models instead of 3), but not impossible to run with.
Some simple pallette swaps like they're doing now for the Aces boxes. Yeah, there'd be challenges, but I don't think it'd be insurmountable.
But it is just a pipe dream, I totally recognize that. For good or ill (heh), we're stuck with what we've got. Hopefully having some in hand will given me more to talk about than wistful 'what if?' scenarios, but given that they haven't even started the single battle cry shipments yet, I suspect my group's double reckless will be lucky to even go out in October, especially with the container transportation situation.
"Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is a fast paced strategy battle game that expands on the popular Palladium role playing game. Take command of the brave men and women of the United Earth Defense Force to valiantly defend Earth from annihilation. Or, command the alien armies of the Zentraedi Armada to recover an alien artifact of immense power and enslave humankind. Collect your forces from an expanding range of world class game pieces. Relive the massive battles on your tabletop at home to enhance your Robotech® RPG adventures or as a stand-alone game.
Well, I guess you read what you want to read in all this, when I first pledged I just thought it was Kevin unable to understand tabletop gaming.
Now knowing about their IP issues they tried so hard to say "tabletop wargame" without actually saying it.
So rather than chalking-up strange language from PB as being "stupid" I should look at it as a "game is afoot" and various shenanigans are abound which will be revealed in due time...
Yeah, will be looking at alternate rules I think purely out of spite.
Forar wrote: Oh, that definitely crossed my mind, but that could be adjusted simply by using smaller numbers of figures.
I mean, small X-Wing ships often seem to fall in the $15 apiece range, but finding them for $10 isn't impossible. $30'ish for a single ship wouldn't exactly be great, but only eventually wanting to get ahold of 3-4 of them wouldn't be any more terrible than buying a squad or two of X-Wings really. Moreso if they had a similar Core Box with 1 VT and a couple Battlepods. It'd be more expensive than the XW Core (with 5-6 models instead of 3), but not impossible to run with.
Some simple pallette swaps like they're doing now for the Aces boxes. Yeah, there'd be challenges, but I don't think it'd be insurmountable.
But it is just a pipe dream, I totally recognize that. For good or ill (heh), we're stuck with what we've got. Hopefully having some in hand will given me more to talk about than wistful 'what if?' scenarios, but given that they haven't even started the single battle cry shipments yet, I suspect my group's double reckless will be lucky to even go out in October, especially with the container transportation situation.
Keep in mind that you're comparing apples (full retail MSRP) to oranges there (online discount retailer prices). In any case, the only way they could do it would be to make it too expensive with three prepainted models and movement dials for each veritech or take a short cut with a separate movement dial only for each mode. I'd actually be fine with the later but it would effectively increase the number of SKUs (they'd likely have to offer either 3 blisters or a "three pack" ala the "aces" xwing packs). If they did a three pack, I could see paying the $45 for it as you'd get three independently usable models and not three modes for one in game model for that same price. Each model would have to come with three dials as the movement options for each model *should* be vastly different. The cheapest way out would be to use one dial but have a restriction that battleloid can only use speed 1 and 2, guardian gets 1-3, and jet gets 2-5 speed maneuvers at which point you just indicate the "mode" with a token. I'm not particularly a fan of that though but it is possible. I've been toying around with various ideas for using the flightpath rules with certain battletech LAMs I'll be receiving sometime in the next 1-3 months.
Forar wrote: Oh, that definitely crossed my mind, but that could be adjusted simply by using smaller numbers of figures.
I mean, small X-Wing ships often seem to fall in the $15 apiece range, but finding them for $10 isn't impossible. $30'ish for a single ship wouldn't exactly be great, but only eventually wanting to get ahold of 3-4 of them wouldn't be any more terrible than buying a squad or two of X-Wings really. Moreso if they had a similar Core Box with 1 VT and a couple Battlepods. It'd be more expensive than the XW Core (with 5-6 models instead of 3), but not impossible to run with.
Some simple pallette swaps like they're doing now for the Aces boxes. Yeah, there'd be challenges, but I don't think it'd be insurmountable.
But it is just a pipe dream, I totally recognize that. For good or ill (heh), we're stuck with what we've got. Hopefully having some in hand will given me more to talk about than wistful 'what if?' scenarios, but given that they haven't even started the single battle cry shipments yet, I suspect my group's double reckless will be lucky to even go out in October, especially with the container transportation situation.
I've seen but never played X-wing so it'd be interesting to see how RTT ports over. Some are already planning on it. I can see another webpage or forum just for that purpose coming about in the next few months.
The RTT game does play really fast though. A few minor fixes for the tournament minded will hopefully show up soon. With the squadrons idea and sheer number of battlepods on the table I wonder how well the "Swarm" army will port over to X-Wing. I've noticed that X-Wing's Tie Fighters are not so much as a swarm as portrayed in the movies, just a small increase in numbers over the X-Wings. If the number of X-Wings to Ties from the movies were used the Rebels better all have ace pilots or they are simply outclassed. Having played both X-Wing and Tie Fighter on the PC I just don't get the same feel when I watch X-Wing games. Armada will hopefully be a step up.
"Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is a fast paced strategy battle game that expands on the popular Palladium role playing game. Take command of the brave men and women of the United Earth Defense Force to valiantly defend Earth from annihilation. Or, command the alien armies of the Zentraedi Armada to recover an alien artifact of immense power and enslave humankind. Collect your forces from an expanding range of world class game pieces. Relive the massive battles on your tabletop at home to enhance your Robotech® RPG adventures or as a stand-alone game.
Well, I guess you read what you want to read in all this, when I first pledged I just thought it was Kevin unable to understand tabletop gaming.
Now knowing about their IP issues they tried so hard to say "tabletop wargame" without actually saying it.
So rather than chalking-up strange language from PB as being "stupid" I should look at it as a "game is afoot" and various shenanigans are abound which will be revealed in due time...
Yeah, will be looking at alternate rules I think purely out of spite.
They did show the beta rules during the KS. So honestly it should not be a surprise to anyone that the Minis game is a Morph of the RPG game. Nobody seemed to blink twice when the beta rules were released. If they had looked at those and seen the RPG rules they would have realized all the rest.
Guys guys guys, we should totally have read the beta rules and then read the palladium RPG rules, that most of us don't even have or want to get, just to make sure palladium was going to deliver a miniatures strategy battle game like they said they were going to. It's totally our fault for not double checking to make sure palladium didn't secretly change the rules to be more rpgish. Remember guys, in this world, no means yes.
Mike1975 wrote: They did show the beta rules during the KS. So honestly it should not be a surprise to anyone that the Minis game is a Morph of the RPG game. Nobody seemed to blink twice when the beta rules were released. If they had looked at those and seen the RPG rules they would have realized all the rest.
To whom? Please, show me where I was able to download them. As far as I know, only certain playtesters had access to the beta rules - you literally said as much yourself.
edit: Hell, you said yourself multiple times that you had to ask permission to talk about the rules you were playtesting. So what access did we have, actually?
Yes, every time you talked about the rules, people blinked twice. We said it was dumb, stupid, and a bad idea. And guess what we're still saying.
They didn't give us "the beta rules" during the campaign.
They gave us a "rules overview" that had some mechanical bits and was noted to be a Work In Progress repeatedly. Did it give some insight into the game? Sure. Was it enough to actually play with? Not at all.
Hell, the closest thing we got to that was the two page quick reference guide that people scanned from Gencon, which was nearly 3 months after the campaign closed, and still only touched on a handful of actual game mechanics.
Based on the game play demos that Tom did I'm sure it's lightning fast. I blinked and nearly missed the game, and by "blinked" I mean: fell asleep for 3 hours and when I woke up they were still on the first turn of the game.
Mike1975 wrote: They did show the beta rules during the KS. So honestly it should not be a surprise to anyone that the Minis game is a Morph of the RPG game. Nobody seemed to blink twice when the beta rules were released. If they had looked at those and seen the RPG rules they would have realized all the rest.
To whom? Please, show me where I was able to download them. As far as I know, only certain playtesters had access to the beta rules - you literally said as much yourself.
I think he's referring to the Rules Overview that was on the front page of the Kickstarter. Not really "beta" rules, more "proof on concept" rules.
Based on the game play demos that Tom did I'm sure it's lightning fast. I blinked and nearly missed the game, and by "blinked" I mean: fell asleep for 3 hours and when I woke up they were still on the first turn of the game.
Because someone else will note it; yes, granted, as I recall that was someone that hadn't mastered the rules, teaching other players who were entirely new to the game.
My first game of Malifaux with perhaps 20 soul stones (normal point total is 35 for the edition I played) worth of figures still took a good hour or two just to play a few turns as we were taught and looked things up, and that was with people who had been playing for a year guiding my opponent and I.
Ones first game isn't necessarily indicative of the end result.
But I agree, we've yet to get battle reports (that I've seen, at least) talking about running 300 points and finishing in an hour, as has been noted by both some commentators and ND themselves. Of course, it will likely be months before there's enough product distributed and assembled to really judge that, but the 'fiddly' nature of some of the rules (we've been over them at length, please don't make me go through this again) isn't inspiring faith.
I've seen but never played X-wing so it'd be interesting to see how RTT ports over. Some are already planning on it. I can see another webpage or forum just for that purpose coming about in the next few months.
The RTT game does play really fast though. A few minor fixes for the tournament minded will hopefully show up soon. With the squadrons idea and sheer number of battlepods on the table I wonder how well the "Swarm" army will port over to X-Wing. I've noticed that X-Wing's Tie Fighters are not so much as a swarm as portrayed in the movies, just a small increase in numbers over the X-Wings. If the number of X-Wings to Ties from the movies were used the Rebels better all have ace pilots or they are simply outclassed. Having played both X-Wing and Tie Fighter on the PC I just don't get the same feel when I watch X-Wing games. Armada will hopefully be a step up.
You're right in that the model counts are lower than in RRT but it is a dedicated skirmish game and it fills that niche quite well. It is meant to simulate the WW2 style dogfighting you see in the movies which it also IMO does well. Other than the attack on the second Death Star, you never saw more than a dozen fighters on any one side on the original releases (and IIRC only ANH as well with the 1990's redo with added scenes on the attack run to the original death star). In Xwing, a "horde" is generally 7-9 fighters in your typical 100pt battle where you can also take big name movie characters and field just two ships with special characters and upgrades at the extreme other end. Obviously the number of figs goes up if you play larger battles which plenty of people do. As for the computer game, I feel it does capture that spirit as due to computing limitations at that time you only generally had less than a dozen ships around at any one time... maybe 3-4 for the rebels and waves of 6-8 in two squadrons for the imperials. That is a judgement call though as xwing doesn't do "waves" officially like the life is cheap rule in RRT. In any case, xwing is good at what it does (a skirmish level game) but would play completely different if you tried to use all the figs in the RRT boxed set at once in a two player game. The rules are elegant and quick but they're detailed enough so that dragging in a dozen models would slow the game down to something almost unrecognizable. If you're going to play RRT with it, a single valkyrie squadron versus a bells and whistles zent squad with arty pods and glaug would work with maybe one more small unit from RRT on each side max would work. Anything more than that and I don't think it is a good fit.
Obviously I'm not sure yet about the RRT rules. There are plenty of things that really bother me which I've explained multiple times in the past to no apparent avail at palladium but I'm withholding judgement on the mass battle rules till I actually get my product in hand. I know that some folks like yourself have already played (plus the gencon folks) but I suspect the vast majority of backers are waiting till they get their own stuff (dare I say... 98% of them are waiting!?) to make their final judgement. In the meantime, Palladium and/or ND screwing the pooch on the skirmish side and "officially" removing the workable rules they had means I'm looking for another option for low figure count games. From what you said, RRT doesn't play well at the low counts due to the lethality so I doubt I'm missing much.
Yeah, if there were such a game, they'd need to rework the entire scope downwards. They could skip the 'hidden movement dials' aspect to save time, but at the very least they'd want to cut the numbers in half, and the point about cost could easily make bringing them down to 1/3 or 1/4. With the heightened cost of figures they'd want to keep it accessible.
Something that I fear RRT may risk pricing itself out of, even with CSI's usual discount applied, but that remains to be seen.
Forar wrote: Yeah, if there were such a game, they'd need to rework the entire scope downwards. They could skip the 'hidden movement dials' aspect to save time, but at the very least they'd want to cut the numbers in half, and the point about cost could easily make bringing them down to 1/3 or 1/4. With the heightened cost of figures they'd want to keep it accessible.
Something that I fear RRT may risk pricing itself out of, even with CSI's usual discount applied, but that remains to be seen.
Yeah, skipping the hidden movement would save alot of time and you, instead of putting down the movement dial, just alternate between models moving and declaring actions ignoring the pilot skill (which would still be used for firing so not completely useless). That would basically skip a lengthy intermediate step.
As for the price, I don't think RRT is expensive even at full retail. Valkyries by definition are expensive on a usable per model basis for plastics but there isn't anything palladium could do about that... if you require three models for one usable in game model, there isn't any way around that beyond using the short cuts I mentioned a few posts up. Then again... I'm didn't get into this for massive battles and was instead hooked by the promise of good skirmish rules that I could use with my battlecry pledge. Too bad that palladium decided to break that promise as well and replace the "official" skirmish rules with a paragraph of loosey goosey trash.
@Stanman
Totally agree, Tom's video likely did more harm than good. I kept texting and messaging them to get things rolling along. That is more a problem with the planning and personality than the game itself but regardless it wound up reflecting on the game. Good thing there are more videos that were made.
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B0VSNzmthd1vb3ZLanBTbVRDVDg&usp=sharing
@Albertorious
Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is a fast paced strategy battle game that expands on the popular Palladium role playing game.
I don't see how is that in any way misleading people to think they are getting a complete and separate minis game in no way related to the RPG. That In fact says what I have been saying for a while. The game from day 1 was set up as a take off of the RPG. The rules are miniatures rules but the bones are based off of the RPG. This supports that completely.
Take command of the brave men and women of the United Earth Defense Force to valiantly defend Earth from annihilation. Or, command the alien armies of the Zentraedi Armada to recover an alien artifact of immense power and enslave humankind. Collect your forces from an expanding range of world class game pieces. Relive the massive battles on your tabletop at home to enhance your Robotech® RPG adventures or as a stand-alone game.
This just reinforces it. Regardless if it is a new system or a minis game that is based off the RPG....what does it matter at the end of the day? The important factors are the minis rules and how they play and the minis. Only if you plan on using the RPG characters does any of the rest matter honestly.
Forar wrote: Yeah, if there were such a game, they'd need to rework the entire scope downwards. They could skip the 'hidden movement dials' aspect to save time, but at the very least they'd want to cut the numbers in half, and the point about cost could easily make bringing them down to 1/3 or 1/4. With the heightened cost of figures they'd want to keep it accessible.
Something that I fear RRT may risk pricing itself out of, even with CSI's usual discount applied, but that remains to be seen.
Yeah, skipping the hidden movement would save alot of time and you, instead of putting down the movement dial, just alternate between models moving and declaring actions ignoring the pilot skill (which would still be used for firing so not completely useless). That would basically skip a lengthy intermediate step.
As for the price, I don't think RRT is expensive even at full retail. Valkyries by definition are expensive on a usable per model basis for plastics but there isn't anything palladium could do about that... if you require three models for one usable in game model, there isn't any way around that beyond using the short cuts I mentioned a few posts up. Then again... I'm didn't get into this for massive battles and was instead hooked by the promise of good skirmish rules that I could use with my battlecry pledge. Too bad that palladium decided to break that promise as well and replace the "official" skirmish rules with a paragraph of loosey goosey trash.
How would that compare to the Attack Wing rules? I hear those are different.
As Mekton and the rest come out I hope myself and others will have the opportunity to compare the rules and see what works. I have not used Alpha Strike yet because since I've a long time Battltetech player I can't see those rules meshing well with the Anime feel of Robotech. Heavy Gear....I need to read the rules on Blitz and Silhouette to compare them.
How would that compare to the Attack Wing rules? I hear those are different.
As Mekton and the rest come out I hope myself and others will have the opportunity to compare the rules and see what works. I have not used Alpha Strike yet because since I've a long time Battltetech player I can't see those rules meshing well with the Anime feel of Robotech. Heavy Gear....I need to read the rules on Blitz and Silhouette to compare them.
My experience with Attack Wing is limited to watching a few youtube videos but the mechanics are very similar to x-wing (albeit it with different names/terms for things). The main mechanics differences I've noticed were expanded movement options like more speed 5 and 6 maneuvers as well as "reverse" speeds which aren't possible at all in x-wing given the WW2 dogfighting feel of star wars fighter combat. I'm actually considering picking up a core set just for the movement counters and to check out the dials and I feel that humanoid mecha should have a "reverse" speed.
As for Heavy Gear, the blitz rules are useless if you want to use more than 8-12 figs per side unless you want to spend long amounts of time trying to play a game. HG, like X-wing, just isn't cut out for mass battles. They have new rules that are supposed to be lighter and quicker but my experience with them was at skirmish scale model counts and was over a year ago so I can't comment with any certainty on the beta rules they're advertising on their site currently.
How would that compare to the Attack Wing rules? I hear those are different.
As Mekton and the rest come out I hope myself and others will have the opportunity to compare the rules and see what works. I have not used Alpha Strike yet because since I've a long time Battltetech player I can't see those rules meshing well with the Anime feel of Robotech. Heavy Gear....I need to read the rules on Blitz and Silhouette to compare them.
My experience with Attack Wing is limited to watching a few youtube videos but the mechanics are very similar to x-wing (albeit it with different names/terms for things). The main mechanics differences I've noticed were expanded movement options like more speed 5 and 6 maneuvers as well as "reverse" speeds which aren't possible at all in x-wing given the WW2 dogfighting feel of star wars fighter combat. I'm actually considering picking up a core set just for the movement counters and to check out the dials and I feel that humanoid mecha should have a "reverse" speed.
As for Heavy Gear, the rules are useless if you want to use more than 8-12 figs per side unless you want to spend long amounts of time trying to play a game. HG, like X-wing, just isn't cut out for mass battles. They have new rules that are supposed to be lighter and quicker but my experience with them was at skirmish scale model counts and was over a year ago so I can't comment with any certainty on the beta rules they're advertising on their site currently.
Blitz is supposed to be a slimmed down and faster version. I need to read through the rules. They have them for free download.
Mekton is the other possibility then. The ablative armor and super short weapon ranges of weapons concern me though. For $50 it was worth it to get the rules and check.
Alpha Strike is the last option. I love BT but it's not made for Anime style. The Clans did bring it much closer though whether you liked them or not.
Automatically Appended Next Post: CAV on the other hand looks like it might be almost fast enough to adapt to high minis counts
Blitz is supposed to be a slimmed down and faster version. I need to read through the rules. They have them for free download.
It is slimmed down and faster... compared to CBT and the original HGRPG rules that were used for the minis game as well. Instead of 3-4 minis per side, you get up to 8-12 before the game bogs down. It just isn't enough to turn it into a full minis game and still has way too many vestigial remnants left over from the RPG roots to be a good one as written despite half baked attempts to tweak it at the customers' cost every 2 years.
The new rules largely shed that unnecessary stuff (except for the very unbalanced sublists that are heavily RPG inspired and just repeat the EXACT problems that plagued HG balance for the past decade) so you might want to at least give them the once over.
Blitz is supposed to be a slimmed down and faster version. I need to read through the rules. They have them for free download.
It is slimmed down and faster... compared to CBT and the original HGRPG rules that were used for the minis game as well. Instead of 3-4 minis per side, you get up to 8-12 before the game bogs down. It just isn't enough to turn it into a full minis game and still has way too many vestigial remnants left over from the RPG roots to be a good one as written despite half baked attempts to tweak it at the customers' cost every 2 years.
The new rules largely shed that unnecessary stuff (except for the very unbalanced sublists that are heavily RPG inspired and just repeat the EXACT problems that plagued HG balance for the past decade) so you might want to at least give them the once over.
I'll look, I'm not looking for a skirmish scale game but if I wind up helping make some version for the Next Gen stuff I'll mess with Skirmish rules a lot more for research.
1 Mini size is the beta rules?
2 Size of the squadrons is the beta rules?
3 I don't remember those rules, but I didn't pledge until later. Sure, it has *roots* in the RPG, but that's a different thing than saying the "Minis game is a Morph of the RPG game".
4 ZOMG ORG CHARTS. Have nothing to do with the price of tea in China. Try again?
5 Yay more force orgs!
So the only evidence you have to support your statement that, and I'll quote it so I'm not accused of putting words in your mouth,
They did show the beta rules during the KS. So honestly it should not be a surprise to anyone that the Minis game is a Morph of the RPG game. Nobody seemed to blink twice when the beta rules were released. If they had looked at those and seen the RPG rules they would have realized all the rest.
That's not the "beta rules". That's a quick start, and it says on every page "Rules still in development and subject to change." Pardon me if I don't take those at face value.
Additionally, the rules presented in that quick start aren't that bad. Sure, there's a couple things I have issues with (specifically the number of HtH attacks) but it's not horrible overall.
So how about you (finally) get off your high horse and understand that what was presented is not what is being sold. This isn't the miniatures wargame with an RPG tie in (what it should have been). It's a bunch of crap.
Quick run through of the last few pages and still so many people who hate the game.
I am now addressing these disillusioned backers who are willing to sell for a price commensurate with what they think of the quality of the rules and miniatures.
I'm now offering $50 for a Battle Cry pledge. Please PM me.
I match your ridiculous price with my own; I will sell you my rule book for $50. You will be very pleased to get such a piece of visual and game art for such a low price. Please PM me.
Spoiler:
You may be surprised to know that just because you're not happy with something doesn't automatically make you a sucker nor does it instantly wipe out the knowledge of its potential value to someone else whose opinion may differ. Knowing is half the battle!
warboss wrote: I match your ridiculous price with my own; I will sell you my rule book for $50. You will be very pleased to get such a piece of visual and game art for such a low price. Please PM me.
You may be surprised to know that just because you're not happy with something doesn't automatically make you a sucker nor does it instantly wipe out the knowledge of its potential value to someone else whose opinion may differ. Knowing is half the battle!
Considering the Kickstarter crash of Sedition Wars, getting out now for $50 may be more profitable than waiting and getting out for $25 or less.
I love how this is the biggest epeen thread on Dakka.
warboss wrote: I match your ridiculous price with my own; I will sell you my rule book for $50. You will be very pleased to get such a piece of visual and game art for such a low price. Please PM me.
You may be surprised to know that just because you're not happy with something doesn't automatically make you a sucker nor does it instantly wipe out the knowledge of its potential value to someone else whose opinion may differ. Knowing is half the battle!
Considering the Kickstarter crash of Sedition Wars, getting out now for $50 may be more profitable than waiting and getting out for $25 or less.
I love how this is the biggest epeen thread on Dakka.
And you apparently just unzipped? You realize that complaining about complaining is still complaining, right? In any case, your Sedition Wars horror story is a bit... how can I put this.. self serving and flawed. The prices you're talking about were for the boxed game only from clearance retailers and not the "magic" pledge with all the extras which is what your ridiculous offer was for. If you feel like offering $50 for the first contact base box only, you may have some validity to using that as the basis for your offer as that would be the equivalent (offer and scare tactic) and not just a stunt to generate drama.
Quality
In manufacturing, a measure of excellence or a state of being free from defects, deficiencies and significant variations. It is brought about by strict and consistent commitment to certain standards that achieve uniformity of a product in order to satisfy specific customer or user requirements.
Note: specific customer or user requirements vary.
Mods, as has been pointed out, obviously this isn't a miniatures game, can it be moved to the correct section of the forums?
Is there any part of this project that wasn't our fault for not researching first?
Joyboozer wrote: Mods, as has been pointed out, obviously this isn't a miniatures game, can it be moved to the correct section of the forums?
Is there any part of this project that wasn't our fault for not researching first?
Ahahahahahah!
Yeah, it's a tabletop game with miniatures.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck who cares what the lawyers call it?
The armd platforms on the sdf-1 make this squarely a macross DYRL product and thus better than RRT minis. Also it lacks seams that must be filled with gallons of liquid green stuff.
Joyboozer wrote: Mods, as has been pointed out, obviously this isn't a miniatures game, can it be moved to the correct section of the forums?
Is there any part of this project that wasn't our fault for not researching first?
Ahahahahahah!
Yeah, it's a tabletop game with miniatures.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck who cares what the lawyers call it?
Nope, it's obviously an RPG extension - anyone who's read the beta rules could understand that jeeze. Do your research.
Plus, force orgs.
1 Mini size is the beta rules?
2 Size of the squadrons is the beta rules?
3 I don't remember those rules, but I didn't pledge until later. Sure, it has *roots* in the RPG, but that's a different thing than saying the "Minis game is a Morph of the RPG game".
4 ZOMG ORG CHARTS. Have nothing to do with the price of tea in China. Try again?
5 Yay more force orgs!
So the only evidence you have to support your statement that, and I'll quote it so I'm not accused of putting words in your mouth,
They did show the beta rules during the KS. So honestly it should not be a surprise to anyone that the Minis game is a Morph of the RPG game. Nobody seemed to blink twice when the beta rules were released. If they had looked at those and seen the RPG rules they would have realized all the rest.
That's not the "beta rules". That's a quick start, and it says on every page "Rules still in development and subject to change." Pardon me if I don't take those at face value.
Additionally, the rules presented in that quick start aren't that bad. Sure, there's a couple things I have issues with (specifically the number of HtH attacks) but it's not horrible overall.
So how about you (finally) get off your high horse and understand that what was presented is not what is being sold. This isn't the miniatures wargame with an RPG tie in (what it should have been). It's a bunch of crap.
Plus it also depends on what you consider Morphing the rules. Many would agree with that statement others not so much since that is a relative term. So if you want o read the RPG and then the rules and then everything else we have and be surprised that's all up to you.
judgedoug wrote: Quick run through of the last few pages and still so many people who hate the game.
I am now addressing these disillusioned backers who are willing to sell for a price commensurate with what they think of the quality of the rules and miniatures.
I'm now offering $50 for a Battle Cry pledge. Please PM me.
Counter offer:
$300
You'd be getting a deal...and I'm sure the stuff will only continue to go up in value, so in three years when I finally get it straight from PB to ship to you, you're investment will have doubled...
Considering the Kickstarter crash of Sedition Wars, getting out now for $50 may be more profitable than waiting and getting out for $25 or less.
I love how this is the biggest epeen thread on Dakka.
And you apparently just unzipped? You realize that complaining about complaining is still complaining, right? In any case, your Sedition Wars horror story is a bit... how can I put this.. self serving and flawed. The prices you're talking about were for the boxed game only from clearance retailers and not the "magic" pledge with all the extras which is what your ridiculous offer was for. If you feel like offering $50 for the first contact base box only, you may have some validity to using that as the basis for your offer as that would be the equivalent (offer and scare tactic) and not just a stunt to generate drama.
I'm on the correct 4chan subforum here, right? Ah, judging by the quality of content, yes it is.
Well, assuming the last hundred plus pages of this thread is not actually just internet tough guy hyperbole - again, after months and months and hundreds and hundreds of posts of declarations of RRT being the worst game ever, with terrible rules, by a terrible company, with terrible miniatures, with terrible seams, and terrible paint jobs and terrible dice and terrible etc - in fact, to quote many of you, a game so bad that it'll be binned immediately - I offer $50! Fifty earth dollars for quite possibly the worst thing ever made my man. You are correct that it's self-serving! That's the way this works. The value of RRT has plummeted to being bin-worthy, suitable only to be compacted and used as ammunition to throw at Kevin Siembieda's head. Why not attempt to recover your investment?
judgedoug wrote: I offer $50! Fifty earth dollars for quite possibly the worst thing ever made my man. You are correct that it's self-serving! That's the way this works. The value of RRT has plummeted to being bin-worthy, suitable only to be compacted and used as ammunition to throw at Kevin Siembieda's head. Why not attempt to recover your investment?
Because it is possible I can get a better deal, recovering 50 bucks isn't all that much, and I can afford losing those 50, so I'll take my chances. Thank you for the offer, though. Simply put, I'm not that desperate, and I made the pledge out of disposable money.
But don't worry, if the value plummets down to that, you'll still be able to buy all the stuff for those 50 bucks. Win-win, right?
Unrelated to the offer made, it will be interesting to see how the secondary market evolves for this. eBay already has a seller moving things at reasonable prices via pre-order (though apparently the lengthy delays have caused some issues with that), local markets, bartertown, and even the swap shop here.
The idea of building dozens or even hundreds of models with these pieces counts is rather daunting/frustrating, but if someone only wanted a few "unseen" to add to their shelves/collection (even if not 100% in scale), or a few VT's and pods for a little diorama in the den, it might be one of the most available methods of getting a handful. Suddenly that demand drives the prices a bit, depending on how the supply holds up. (or floods the market, as may be the case)
I imagine the $200 core box we just saw will be an outlier, as is often the case when the demand exists (even in small amounts) and the supply is essentially zero, but as boxes arrive, we'll see how that plays out. For all the doom and gloom about the game and reasonable objections to choices about the Models (literal models), if I were just assembling a pair of VTs, I doubt it'd bother me quite as much.
Well, aside from that Guardian tail. Ugh.
Which kind of ties back into what we've been talking about for a while now; delivery. It's funny/sad how they 'started delivery' weeks ago, and yet seem to have hit a brick wall while waiting for the ability to ship Battle Cry boxes (presumably with Container 2, but I'm not stating that as an absolute).
In a way, I guess they were right that Gencon wouldn't affect backer delivery because of the skeleton staff they left and the way they purposely organized the first container to prioritize gencon sales over backer delivery. I am glad that at least 2% of backers are eligible to receive their products in the same month they declared shipping started... it seems though that most of the rest of us are unsurprisingly in the other 98%. At least we have one received backer that was able to post here.
I suspect stores will sell a fair amount of the booster packs to robotech fans but I'm frankly not sure yet how the reception will be for the mass battle wargame itself (along with its bigger potential sales per person).
Funnily enough, a bunch of people selling on the secondary market might help them. While it could initially hurt Retail demand/sales, it also gives people a KS'ish (give or take) price point to get into the game. It might not be "$140 for 97 models" good, but a core box for $50 instead of $70 might attract some interest, and once they have the beginning stuff, a few expansions here and there could follow.
But that's completely unknowable until we start seeing things arrive and move (or not).
And entirely agreed, Warboss. I think it may well be a far stretch to really drive this as an 'omg I must have hundreds of figures' kind of game, which makes the skirmish being an afterthought all the sadder.
The ability to play small scale games easily and enjoyably can lead to larger scale games as a gradual evolution. My friends started playing Malifaux with 20-35 soul stone games, but eventually were playing 50-70+ SS mass battles across ever growing collections. We started with 50-100 point battles in X-Wing, now we can field 6+ 100 point lists for mini tournaments, or 300+ points per side for epic fights without even remotely capping out on figures.
The small stuff can lead to the large stuff. The emphasis on going big is short sighted and could be a gamble.
I would be more than happy to pay $50 for a Battlecry, and I have 14 boxes coming, and am one of the few in actual possession of a boxed set. If you have a BC ON HAND and want to sell it for $50, PM me, and I'll buy it.
Speaking of, its ALMOST done. I have 4 more battloids and half of 4 more guardians, plus the 2 tomahawks (which are mostly done). I'm having some serious issues figuring out arm poses.
Using plastic models glue, the seams almost vanished on most of the obvious places. The notable exception is the front of the defender. However, the mini is only 1" tall, and if you have eyes good enough to see that seam on a painted miniature 2' away you are a freaking superhero.
I have many, many, many, many miniatures, all of them have seams somewhere. These are just flat robots so they are easier to make out, but EVERY miniature I have has seams. The only real issue I have with the RRT miniatures is they are a crapload of parts, and some of the parts are too small for me to handle and trim.
I plan on spray painting primer (OD Green, I'll have yellow/purple/blue/white highlights) on my zentraedi this weekend, and *HOPEFULLY* will get the arm issue figured out and get all my UEDF stuff painted black (with red highlights) painted. Granted, this is just a first contact, but its a start.
I'll then go run a demo and film it, well, after I run through a demo a few times to get really familiar with the rules. I'll put the video up which will hopefully be my last, as I think my videos suck but since nobody else is making them (and I got the free first contact and all), I kinda feel obligated too :(
My impressions right now, after having this for a few weeks:
- The miniatures are very time consuming to put together and not for new modelers.
- I don't care for the card design, and they aren't real durable. They feel the same as X-Wing cards though, so I guess its just me as people love X-Wing.
- The rules seem pretty nice and well put together. The book is easy to read and the rules are pretty easy to learn.
- The game is not for folks wanting competitive tournaments. If you are one of those folks, and want to play RRT in big competitive tournaments, I think you'll be disappointed.
- The box for a first contact is huge, and I'm 99% sure you could get some foam and put your assembled miniatures in it and use it as a carrying case. Battlecry isn't so lucky.
- I'm happy with it overall, and think it'll be fun.
My current concerns:
- The destroid sets that say you can build 4 destroids as EITHER tomahawks or defenders. Based on the sprues, I'm betting the sets end up being 2 of each, and that kinda pisses me off.
- Lessons won't be learned on the miniatures by the time wave 2 stuff is ordered, meaning wave 2 miniatures will still be a huge PITA to assemble
- The MSRP for the addons is WAY too freaking much, this will hurt game future :(
- Finding players, I have a hard time finding players for any games in Dallas. I have found a BT group, but even X-Wing is hard to find. If I don't play magic I'm SOL, and card games are stupid to me.
- I fear for the game having enough success for the next 2 generations, so I won't have alphas/invid/etc in the same scale.
- I don't think the game has much life in it. There aren't that many units, not that many factions, and after you play a few dozen games I see it becoming what Zombicide has become to me.... boring :(
- Regardless of what I was told in person, Palladium doesn't seem to be learning from some of their mistakes, an that is disconcerting. I will try to call them this week and say "wtf?".
1 Mini size is the beta rules?
2 Size of the squadrons is the beta rules?
3 I don't remember those rules, but I didn't pledge until later. Sure, it has *roots* in the RPG, but that's a different thing than saying the "Minis game is a Morph of the RPG game".
4 ZOMG ORG CHARTS. Have nothing to do with the price of tea in China. Try again?
5 Yay more force orgs!
So the only evidence you have to support your statement that, and I'll quote it so I'm not accused of putting words in your mouth,
They did show the beta rules during the KS. So honestly it should not be a surprise to anyone that the Minis game is a Morph of the RPG game. Nobody seemed to blink twice when the beta rules were released. If they had looked at those and seen the RPG rules they would have realized all the rest.
That's not the "beta rules". That's a quick start, and it says on every page "Rules still in development and subject to change." Pardon me if I don't take those at face value.
Additionally, the rules presented in that quick start aren't that bad. Sure, there's a couple things I have issues with (specifically the number of HtH attacks) but it's not horrible overall.
So how about you (finally) get off your high horse and understand that what was presented is not what is being sold. This isn't the miniatures wargame with an RPG tie in (what it should have been). It's a bunch of crap.
Plus it also depends on what you consider Morphing the rules. Many would agree with that statement others not so much since that is a relative term. So if you want o read the RPG and then the rules and then everything else we have and be surprised that's all up to you.
You were the one that used the word "morphing" - I just repeated you. And you admit that your statement of "So honestly it should not be a surprise to anyone that the Minis game is a Morph of the RPG game." was out of line and incorrect?
And remember, you said that people shouldn't have been surprised because of information received *during the kickstarter*. So "everything else we have" was pretty damn limited. Robotech RPG Tactics does not (to me, or many other people) say "Here, have some miniatures to use our RPG rules with." It, instead, says "Here's a miniature game that you can convert your RPG characters into to help cinematize your battles! Plus, it works on its own!"
The "surprise" you keep referring to isn't there for you because - and you might not be aware of this - you had more information than 98% of the people backing this kickstarter. I know - amazing right? Being involved with the play test rules gave you more insight than what the rest of us had. Shocking. And when you reported how the rules were, what were the responses you got? Mostly surprise that the crap RPG system was so prevalent in RRT.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bad_Syntax wrote: - The rules seem pretty nice and well put together. The book is easy to read and the rules are pretty easy to learn.
- The game is not for folks wanting competitive tournaments. If you are one of those folks, and want to play RRT in big competitive tournaments, I think you'll be disappointed.
These two statements should never be together. Ever. Because if the rules are nice and well put together they'll work fine in tournaments.
If they don't work in tournaments, they aren't "pretty nice and well put together".
- Regardless of what I was told in person, Palladium doesn't seem to be learning from some of their mistakes, an that is disconcerting. I will try to call them this week and say "wtf?".
No way - PB has failed to learn? I'm so surprised.
Lunar Toy Store is the only US e-tailer that will be carrying it, otherwise, you'll have to import it yourself. $105 for the SDF-1, city base, and the 2 SD Veritechs is a really good price, I just think I'll have to pass because of how many things are already coming out in October.
These two statements should never be together. Ever. Because if the rules are nice and well put together they'll work fine in tournaments.
If they don't work in tournaments, they aren't "pretty nice and well put together".
Sorry, but that is your opinion. Game systems simply do not require tournament compatibility. There are MANY game systems out there without points, without tournament abilities, without any hope of balanced game play (fact). I've played many napaleonics, ww1/2/3 micro armor ground/naval/air, many tactical games in various time periods, etc, etc, that did not have this ability. The extremely popular ground zero game system Dirtside and Stargrunt specifically avoid point usage (and have a paragraph or two in the rules stating why). The whole concept of game balance leads to boring games and unimaginative scenarios, not to mention absolute game balance where dice (and terrain) are involved is completely impossible and just an illusion. These are all facts and are easily determined to be so, nothing in this paragraph is my opinion.
So yes, I can say the rules are pretty nice and well put together, without them needing to be "balanced" and "tournament friendly". In any game where some good tactics and unit placement can wipe out half the enemy force before they get a chance to act is balanced is simply not possible. Sure, you can play RRT in tournaments, it has point costs, it has scenarios, and it'll work. But just like most other tournament games, there will be temper tantrums, arguments, people arguing over rules interpretations to suit their competitive attitude, and all sorts of other things that, hurt the game industry more than it helps. This is something you should be doing for fun as it is a "game", taking it too seriously is silly. This paragraph represents my opinions, and you are free to disagree.
As for finished pics, I will post some new ones when I'm done with EVERY miniature, but here are some with all the Zentraedi done:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/xqxop7hyphpz2bd/AADbXIrG7Je1DoJWTRuKkhMca?dl=0 - Disclaimer: This was with my phone, and I am not claiming to be a photographer, so sorry if they suck somehow.
I can't mount my stuff on bases until I get my shipment from Litko though, so I can't be 100% "done". Well, I do have 8 bases, so I may try to mount up a few things.
Bad_Syntax wrote: - The destroid sets that say you can build 4 destroids as EITHER tomahawks or defenders. Based on the sprues, I'm betting the sets end up being 2 of each, and that kinda pisses me off.
This is the second time you've mentioned this. Exactly where is it saying you can build 4 destroids as either? Are you still referring to the Kickstarter itself, which unilaterally changed it, and didn't (to my knowledge) publicly state it? Or are you going off a description on the box set or other packaging? Because they've known that was going to be the case (2 Toma/2 Def) since at least August 29 2013, when I got my KS Message from Jeff, a little over a week before the Pledge Manager closed.
Bad_Syntax wrote: Sorry, but that is your opinion. Game systems simply do not require tournament compatibility. There are MANY game systems out there without points, without tournament abilities, without any hope of balanced game play (fact). I've played many napaleonics, ww1/2/3 micro armor ground/naval/air, many tactical games in various time periods, etc, etc, that did not have this ability. The extremely popular ground zero game system Dirtside and Stargrunt specifically avoid point usage (and have a paragraph or two in the rules stating why). The whole concept of game balance leads to boring games and unimaginative scenarios, not to mention absolute game balance where dice (and terrain) are involved is completely impossible and just an illusion. These are all facts and are easily determined to be so, nothing in this paragraph is my opinion.
Please, cite facts backing up the underlined statement. Since you've asserted it's unarguable, you must have evidence of this. And the bold is not what people look for.
And I love that you jumped straight to "balance". That's not what I mentioned at all. Perhaps you need to read closer?
Bad_Syntax wrote: Game systems simply do not require tournament compatibility.
This cannot be overstated. A lot of historicals don't care about concepts like balance because they are primarily interested in simulation. Something similar is the case here, except it is a matter of emulation. The game is supposed to emulate the show. It's not so much a matter of, say, favoring the UEDF or something. It's just that the rules are or at least seem to be primarily designed to allow players to recreate what they experience watching RoboTech.
I argued in that thread about what seemed better and more reasonable as a matter of emulation in my opinion; not about how to fix something unplayable. Indeed, judgedoug, Swabby, and I often brought up the distinction between what needed to be clarified versus stuff we would prefer to rewrite.
Bad_Syntax wrote: Game systems simply do not require tournament compatibility.
This cannot be overstated. A lot of historicals don't care about concepts like balance because they are primarily interested in simulation. Something similar is the case here, except it is a matter of emulation. The game is supposed to emulate the show. It's not so much a matter of, say, favoring the UEDF or something. It's just that the rules are or at least seem to be primarily designed to allow players to recreate what they experience watching RoboTech.
Actually, the question I think needs to be answered here is "does this game emulate the show it is based on?". I'd personally think it's a more important question for my interests (never going to play this in a tournament), and seeing all the "ported over from the RPG" (which, by the way, is absolutely horrid as a Robotech series emulation) melee moves and the like, I'm thinking it might not be.
Bad_Syntax wrote: - The destroid sets that say you can build 4 destroids as EITHER tomahawks or defenders. Based on the sprues, I'm betting the sets end up being 2 of each, and that kinda pisses me off.
This is the second time you've mentioned this. Exactly where is it saying you can build 4 destroids as either? Are you still referring to the Kickstarter itself, which unilaterally changed it, and didn't (to my knowledge) publicly state it? Or are you going off a description on the box set or other packaging? Because they've known that was going to be the case (2 Toma/2 Def) since at least August 29 2013, when I got my KS Message from Jeff, a little over a week before the Pledge Manager closed.
I am not aware of that being said at any time. The daedalus pack had a pic of 8 tomahawks, and that throws off the counts of what I ordered. If they did say it somewhere and I missed it that is on me, but I'm not aware they ever said that... got a source?
rigeld2 wrote:
Bad_Syntax wrote: Sorry, but that is your opinion. Game systems simply do not require tournament compatibility. There are MANY game systems out there without points, without tournament abilities, without any hope of balanced game play (fact). I've played many napaleonics, ww1/2/3 micro armor ground/naval/air, many tactical games in various time periods, etc, etc, that did not have this ability. The extremely popular ground zero game system Dirtside and Stargrunt specifically avoid point usage (and have a paragraph or two in the rules stating why). The whole concept of game balance leads to boring games and unimaginative scenarios, not to mention absolute game balance where dice (and terrain) are involved is completely impossible and just an illusion. These are all facts and are easily determined to be so, nothing in this paragraph is my opinion.
Please, cite facts backing up the underlined statement. Since you've asserted it's unarguable, you must have evidence of this. And the bold is not what people look for.
And I love that you jumped straight to "balance". That's not what I mentioned at all. Perhaps you need to read closer?
Balance is presumed with any tournament set of rules, can't have tournaments without balance... well, you could, but the complaints would put the KS comment thread to shame.
As for boring games and unimaginative scenarios. Games where both sides have equal "points" and roughly equal tactical ability come down to games of who rolls better when it counts. I have seen many, many, many 40K games and other tournaments being played. I don't see massive excitement, I don't see the game store owner telling them to keep quiet, I do not see that level of excitement. However, those tables that aren't doing "tournaments" and playing other miniature games that happens often. People have fun and get passionate, instead of just overly competitive and angry when things don't go their way. I'm sure you'll come back and say how much fun you and your table has, and how all the games are exciting, and people write up big scenarios before each, but based on the rules themselves and the way you have to do scenarios in tournaments, well, there is no way to have that kind of versatility in games where half a dozen scenario types are possible.
As for the illusion thing, yeah, sorry, but once you incorporate terrain, unit deployment, and dice into a game true balance is a mathematical impossibility. Sure, it may be close, usually, but there will be times when the balance is lost before the game starts, or by one person rolling better just a few times, at critical points. That lucky shot on turn 1 that took out that mega-unit worth 25% of your army just cost you the game, and it didn't matter how good you played or the equilibrium in point values of armies. Technically, true balance is probably mathematically impossible in any game between 2 people, though "pretty close" is not too hard.
But how can I say "I'm #1" when a lucky die roll or two won me that final game against my opponent, who was tactically better, had a better force, better positioning, but the "force was not with him" when it came to die rolls? Its an illusion of superiority.
rigeld2 wrote:Which is fine from a *balance* standpoint.
My point was that the *rules* and the *balance* are two different things.
Tournaments can create a balanced environment if the rules are good. Also, PB said they would have tournament support.
A game designer saying they have "tournament support" means they have "point costs for units". Heck, that isn't even a 100% requirement, you could have tournaments without even that. However PB has point costs, army formation, and scenario deployment, so in my book and many others sure that is "tournament support".
I'm saying that the game will not work in competitive tournaments. I saw this in a demo at Gencon. Carmen, the game designer, sat down for a demo with 2 guys. He asked "Do you want me to be nice, or be an a-hole?". They said "be an a-hole". The zentraedi didn't get a single kill, lost both of their glaugs, their gulnau, and most of their regults on turn 1 before they even got to move or do anything. This means they ended up with no command points, further reducing their capability. Turn 2 the UEDF took out all the buildings on the table (I'm a firm believer that the buildings should have 10x the MDC they do) and then proceeded to finish off the zentraedi. This was an "equal points" game, and even if the zentraedi was an ace player they couldn't have prevented what happened.
So sure, go play a tournament, have fun with that when your army is wiped from the map before you get a chance to do *anything*, and there is not a darned thing you can do to prevent it.
1 Mini size is the beta rules?
2 Size of the squadrons is the beta rules?
3 I don't remember those rules, but I didn't pledge until later. Sure, it has *roots* in the RPG, but that's a different thing than saying the "Minis game is a Morph of the RPG game".
4 ZOMG ORG CHARTS. Have nothing to do with the price of tea in China. Try again?
5 Yay more force orgs!
So the only evidence you have to support your statement that, and I'll quote it so I'm not accused of putting words in your mouth,
They did show the beta rules during the KS. So honestly it should not be a surprise to anyone that the Minis game is a Morph of the RPG game. Nobody seemed to blink twice when the beta rules were released. If they had looked at those and seen the RPG rules they would have realized all the rest.
That's not the "beta rules". That's a quick start, and it says on every page "Rules still in development and subject to change." Pardon me if I don't take those at face value.
Additionally, the rules presented in that quick start aren't that bad. Sure, there's a couple things I have issues with (specifically the number of HtH attacks) but it's not horrible overall.
So how about you (finally) get off your high horse and understand that what was presented is not what is being sold. This isn't the miniatures wargame with an RPG tie in (what it should have been). It's a bunch of crap.
Plus it also depends on what you consider Morphing the rules. Many would agree with that statement others not so much since that is a relative term. So if you want o read the RPG and then the rules and then everything else we have and be surprised that's all up to you.
You were the one that used the word "morphing" - I just repeated you. And you admit that your statement of "So honestly it should not be a surprise to anyone that the Minis game is a Morph of the RPG game." was out of line and incorrect?
And remember, you said that people shouldn't have been surprised because of information received *during the kickstarter*. So "everything else we have" was pretty damn limited. Robotech RPG Tactics does not (to me, or many other people) say "Here, have some miniatures to use our RPG rules with." It, instead, says "Here's a miniature game that you can convert your RPG characters into to help cinematize your battles! Plus, it works on its own!"
The "surprise" you keep referring to isn't there for you because - and you might not be aware of this - you had more information than 98% of the people backing this kickstarter. I know - amazing right? Being involved with the play test rules gave you more insight than what the rest of us had. Shocking. And when you reported how the rules were, what were the responses you got? Mostly surprise that the crap RPG system was so prevalent in RRT.
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Bad_Syntax wrote: - The rules seem pretty nice and well put together. The book is easy to read and the rules are pretty easy to learn.
- The game is not for folks wanting competitive tournaments. If you are one of those folks, and want to play RRT in big competitive tournaments, I think you'll be disappointed.
These two statements should never be together. Ever. Because if the rules are nice and well put together they'll work fine in tournaments.
If they don't work in tournaments, they aren't "pretty nice and well put together".
- Regardless of what I was told in person, Palladium doesn't seem to be learning from some of their mistakes, an that is disconcerting. I will try to call them this week and say "wtf?".
No way - PB has failed to learn? I'm so surprised.
Kinda funny that your even freaking out on this point. Yes after January 2014 I had more information. Before then no. Even before I had the RPG books and used them to finish out the rules with as much as we had and I literally had the RPG books there and could see the stats and how they were converted. So more information not really, more drive and knowledge of Robotech and the RPG, that very well could be true. Bad_Syntax who does not play the RPG much if at all and MANY others also managed to make the connection right away. I'm sorry if you or others did not. I won't feel sorry one bit since it was a far cry from just me figuring that out. All I can say is, too bad for you? Nothing was ever hidden or secret about the origins of the game. Even the opening video on the KS says that it's based off the RPG. So if this is a sore point, note that its a not something that many of us see as a surprise.
Again though, who gives a crap what the official name/nomenclature is when in fact in the end it is a miniatures game in fact. It's made and designed for large battles and ill suited for many other systems like Heavy Gear and others as has been pointed out. I pointed out the origins to show that the game would not exist if it had not gone through the hands of PB as it is today as a Tactics/Miniatures version of the RPG.
And most of those fixes are for rules lawyering and tournaments and are easily fixed with errata which is now in the hands of PB and going through the approval process. Thanks to Manchu for setting that up.
Not seeing any major issues in all of that thread.
Quite often. Breetai literally kicking and body slamming Rick's VF-1J, Spartans punching Regults. Khyron's Glaug flailing on a Valkyrie Battloid, and many other scenes.
Even more so in DYRL when Maximillian literally punches open a Regult and blasts the Zentraedi in the face and his skull bits go flying, when Kamijin kills Roy Folker, when the N-Gers capture Hikaru and Minmay, etc.
Robotech and Macross are full of close combats. If the ruleset had no melee, it would be pretty far divorced from the source material.
Bad_Syntax wrote: Game systems simply do not require tournament compatibility.
This cannot be overstated. A lot of historicals don't care about concepts like balance because they are primarily interested in simulation. Something similar is the case here, except it is a matter of emulation. The game is supposed to emulate the show. It's not so much a matter of, say, favoring the UEDF or something. It's just that the rules are or at least seem to be primarily designed to allow players to recreate what they experience watching RoboTech.
Actually, the question I think needs to be answered here is "does this game emulate the show it is based on?". I'd personally think it's a more important question for my interests (never going to play this in a tournament), and seeing all the "ported over from the RPG" (which, by the way, is absolutely horrid as a Robotech series emulation) melee moves and the like, I'm thinking it might not be.
I'd add the plethora of anti-missile rules into that as well. Granted the lasers on the veritech head and back of the pods have been called an anti-missile system but I don't recall them ever being used that way (and if they were it was likely only once). I do however recall them being used as cutting torches and once as a sniper system in a totally action movie cutscene where Roy blows away a flying by zentraedi in Macross City. The only thing that was missing was him casually walking away from an explosion afterwards.
What I do see when reading the rules is a minis game system that is meant to emulate the RPG rules, not the show. There is nothing in the show about being unable to dodge more than 4 missiles but it is in the RPG so it is in the minis game. There is nothing in the show to indicate that a plethora of close combat attacks are needed but it is in the RPG so it is in the minis game. It feels like the rules were meant to emulate the RPG rules mechanics and a few chosen minutiae from the original source material technically drawings/info. I'm reserving final judgement till I actually play but it doesn't feel like it emulates the show much to me from reading through it. The obvious thing is the complete lack of the main squadron for the middle portion of the series, Vermillion, in the official rules.
Bad_Syntax wrote: Game systems simply do not require tournament compatibility.
This cannot be overstated. A lot of historicals don't care about concepts like balance because they are primarily interested in simulation. Something similar is the case here, except it is a matter of emulation. The game is supposed to emulate the show. It's not so much a matter of, say, favoring the UEDF or something. It's just that the rules are or at least seem to be primarily designed to allow players to recreate what they experience watching RoboTech.
Actually, the question I think needs to be answered here is "does this game emulate the show it is based on?". I'd personally think it's a more important question for my interests (never going to play this in a tournament), and seeing all the "ported over from the RPG" (which, by the way, is absolutely horrid as a Robotech series emulation) melee moves and the like, I'm thinking it might not be.
YES! After having played many games the rules copy the Anime style of the cartoon pretty well. The main difference you will see is how squadron tactics will be more important than a bunch of one on one fights that you saw in the cartoon. A lone hero will likely die a lone hero.
I especially love the parts in the cartoon where the battlepods line up around the RDF and kick them to death after shooting the intervening buildings. Or the epic kung fu duel between Roy and Miriya where they fly around jump kicking each other... no, wait... that was Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. I guess I can emulate that here though!
Quite often. Breetai literally kicking and body slamming Rick's VF-1J, Spartans punching Regults. Khyron's Glaug flailing on a Valkyrie Battloid, and many other scenes.
Even more so in DYRL when Maximillian literally punches open a Regult and blasts the Zentraedi in the face and his skull bits go flying, when Kamijin kills Roy Folker, when the N-Gers capture Hikaru and Minmay, etc.
Robotech and Macross are full of close combats. If the ruleset had no melee, it would be pretty far divorced from the source material.
Very True. Although 8 options seem a bit much. In Battletech you have Punch, Kick, Axe/Club, Sword, Death From Above(Jump Kick) and Charge....RTT add Power Punch and Power Kick and Stomp and you lose the Sword option so they really are not far off from each other as one would be led to believe. I'd have to check Mekton to remember what HtH options it has.
Bad_Syntax wrote: Game systems simply do not require tournament compatibility.
This cannot be overstated. A lot of historicals don't care about concepts like balance because they are primarily interested in simulation. Something similar is the case here, except it is a matter of emulation. The game is supposed to emulate the show. It's not so much a matter of, say, favoring the UEDF or something. It's just that the rules are or at least seem to be primarily designed to allow players to recreate what they experience watching RoboTech.
Actually, the question I think needs to be answered here is "does this game emulate the show it is based on?". I'd personally think it's a more important question for my interests (never going to play this in a tournament), and seeing all the "ported over from the RPG" (which, by the way, is absolutely horrid as a Robotech series emulation) melee moves and the like, I'm thinking it might not be.
I'd add the plethora of anti-missile rules into that as well. Granted the lasers on the veritech head and back of the pods have been called an anti-missile system but I don't recall them ever being used that way (and if they were it was likely only once). I do however recall them being used as cutting torches and once as a sniper system in a totally action movie cutscene where Roy blows away a flying by zentraedi in Macross City. The only thing that was missing was him casually walking away from an explosion afterwards.
What I do see when reading the rules is a minis game system that is meant to emulate the RPG rules, not the show. There is nothing in the show about being unable to dodge more than 4 missiles but it is in the RPG so it is in the minis game. There is nothing in the show to indicate that a plethora of close combat attacks are needed but it is in the RPG so it is in the minis game. It feels like the rules were meant to emulate the RPG rules mechanics and a few chosen minutiae from the original source material technically drawings/info. I'm reserving final judgement till I actually play but it doesn't feel like it emulates the show much to me from reading through it. The obvious thing is the complete lack of the main squadron for the middle portion of the series, Vermillion, in the official rules.
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Yeah, Normal Anti-Missile Need a 6 and you pay a command point. That is if you don't have any Anti-Missile Weapons.
Anti-Missile like the top turret on the pod or the head lasers on the VT can shoot without paying Command Points and you need a 5+
Missiles used as Anti-Missile like the missiles on the Tomahawk need a 4+ and can shoot without paying Command Points
3 Options that are pretty straight forward. I don't see that as a problem
What I do NOT like.
1. The 4 Missile cannot be dodged deal
2. If the attack roll hits with 3 missiles and you try to dodge your roll must match or exceed the highest of the 3 rolls. I would prefer that if you roll enough to dodge 2 of the 3 then you be allowed to dodge 2 of the 3. Jeff did say that this is how it worked. It's like you are trying to dodge one missile that is in your face and lose concentration on the others. I don't buy it.
Being a port from the RPG the 4+ missiles thing was brought over. I don't like it but I can kinda see the point but I do agree that in Macross and Robotech we have seen mecha dodge 6 or more missiles.
Quite often. Breetai literally kicking and body slamming Rick's VF-1J, Spartans punching Regults. Khyron's Glaug flailing on a Valkyrie Battloid, and many other scenes.
Even more so in DYRL when Maximillian literally punches open a Regult and blasts the Zentraedi in the face and his skull bits go flying, when Kamijin kills Roy Folker, when the N-Gers capture Hikaru and Minmay, etc.
Robotech and Macross are full of close combats. If the ruleset had no melee, it would be pretty far divorced from the source material.
Very True. Although 8 options seem a bit much. In Battletech you have Punch, Kick, Axe/Club, Sword, Death From Above(Jump Kick) and Charge....RTT add Power Punch and Power Kick and Stomp and you lose the Sword option so they really are not far off from each other as one would be led to believe. I'd have to check Mekton to remember what HtH options it has.
Oh, I agree the sheer volume of melee options is absurd, but I definitely want to have Breetai punch, kick, and throw a Battloid against the wall, then crush it's head in. Or Khyron tearing apart a Destroid in his N-Ger suit. While an abstracted system has it's place (Bolt Action, which has the quickest melee in the history of ever), I do _kind of like_ a little variety for an anime game, even though half of the ones in RRT are kind of redundant. But, hell, even Rick charges through a cluster of Regults and knocks them over with his shoulders. Looking at the PDF, Body Block and Grab make sense, but Kick/Punch/Club/Power Punch could have been combined into "Melee Strike" that does like 3 MDC , +1 if using a club, +1 if moved x" that turn, +1 if a CP is spent. But this is probably better for the rules thread.
I would have preferred if an anti-missile system on the mecha just gave you a flat +1 defensive bonus versus missles instead and that more than 4 missiles gave you a -1 penalty. I personally think that addition of a separate roll was the worse choice but nothing I can do about that.
warboss wrote: I would have preferred if an anti-missile system on the mecha just gave you a flat +1 defensive bonus versus missles instead and that more than 4 missiles gave you a -1 penalty. I personally think that addition of a separate roll was the worse choice but nothing I can do about that.
I've messed with alternate AM rules but those would be for casual play. I like the idea of better pilots having a better chance of shooting the missiles down.
warboss wrote: Or the epic kung fu duel between Roy and Miriya where they fly around jump kicking each other... no, wait... that was Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. I guess I can emulate that here though!
Bad_Syntax wrote: - The destroid sets that say you can build 4 destroids as EITHER tomahawks or defenders. Based on the sprues, I'm betting the sets end up being 2 of each, and that kinda pisses me off.
This is the second time you've mentioned this. Exactly where is it saying you can build 4 destroids as either? Are you still referring to the Kickstarter itself, which unilaterally changed it, and didn't (to my knowledge) publicly state it? Or are you going off a description on the box set or other packaging? Because they've known that was going to be the case (2 Toma/2 Def) since at least August 29 2013, when I got my KS Message from Jeff, a little over a week before the Pledge Manager closed.
I am not aware of that being said at any time. The daedalus pack had a pic of 8 tomahawks, and that throws off the counts of what I ordered. If they did say it somewhere and I missed it that is on me, but I'm not aware they ever said that... got a source?
I think you're misunderstanding me (and I think you may have the wrong link there, unless I'm missing something), or I'm misunderstanding you.
To my knowledge, PB have never clearly publicly stated that there was a change to the Tomahawk/Defender Destroid pack. I've asked many times for a quote from people who've disagreed, and I've only heard "They did, I saw it!". The best anyone came up with, was a quote from PB saying the Pledge Manager listings were accurate. Which it was. It listed 2 Tomahawks + 2 Defenders. But that was at a time when there were at least 3 other things that weren't accurate (the VEF/1D components for one), and it was asked for clarification, and again, to my knowledge, it was never given publicly.
I did ask, using the Kickstarter Messaging system, because I felt it was a big deal, given it was established on at least the second day of the campaign. The private message I got back (quoted below) confirmed it to me, and I've used this to answer people who have asked it, but given I am in no position of authority with PB, it's still second hand (at best) information, and shouldn't be taken as gospel.
Hi Morgan,
The VF-1D / VEF-1 issue has been clarified in recent updates. The Destroid issue of now having 2 of each type is due to manufacturing issues and parts not being compatible. Sorry for the inconvenience.
Jeff Burke
Palladium Books
You said "The destroid sets that say you can build 4 destroids as EITHER tomahawks or defenders.". My question was, were you basing the "destroid sets that say" off the information you have gotten from the Kickstarter, or, given you've actually received product, is there a physical printing (on the main/expansion box, in an inventory sheet, etc) that states that it's "4 as either". Because THAT would be a bigger problem.
Quite often. Breetai literally kicking and body slamming Rick's VF-1J, Spartans punching Regults. Khyron's Glaug flailing on a Valkyrie Battloid, and many other scenes.
Even more so in DYRL when Maximillian literally punches open a Regult and blasts the Zentraedi in the face and his skull bits go flying, when Kamijin kills Roy Folker, when the N-Gers capture Hikaru and Minmay, etc.
Robotech and Macross are full of close combats. If the ruleset had no melee, it would be pretty far divorced from the source material.
Very True. Although 8 options seem a bit much. In Battletech you have Punch, Kick, Axe/Club, Sword, Death From Above(Jump Kick) and Charge....RTT add Power Punch and Power Kick and Stomp and you lose the Sword option so they really are not far off from each other as one would be led to believe. I'd have to check Mekton to remember what HtH options it has.
Oh, I agree the sheer volume of melee options is absurd, but I definitely want to have Breetai punch, kick, and throw a Battloid against the wall, then crush it's head in. Or Khyron tearing apart a Destroid in his N-Ger suit. While an abstracted system has it's place (Bolt Action, which has the quickest melee in the history of ever), I do _kind of like_ a little variety for an anime game, even though half of the ones in RRT are kind of redundant. But, hell, even Rick charges through a cluster of Regults and knocks them over with his shoulders. Looking at the PDF, Body Block and Grab make sense, but Kick/Punch/Club/Power Punch could have been combined into "Melee Strike" that does like 3 MDC , +1 if using a club, +1 if moved x" that turn, +1 if a CP is spent. But this is probably better for the rules thread.
I see little use for "Power Punch" and "Power Kick" other than cinematics but that is why those moves cost command points. Now when the Invid come to into play HtH will get dangerous and likely have to be revised. I've already made some suggestions but it's too early to worry about that.
I've been very open that I'm against the present HtH since at the very least the power moves should go and some units should do more or less damage depending upon the units size and HtH as is does 1-2 too many points damage with a single hit. Reduce all HtH damage by 1 and you might completely eliminate the idea of a "Kickfest". I do note that this happened only once that I'm aware of and on a small demo table where the units were in each other's faces right off the bat.
Bad_Syntax wrote: Sorry, but that is your opinion. Game systems simply do not require tournament compatibility. There are MANY game systems out there without points, without tournament abilities, without any hope of balanced game play (fact). I've played many napaleonics, ww1/2/3 micro armor ground/naval/air, many tactical games in various time periods, etc, etc, that did not have this ability. The extremely popular ground zero game system Dirtside and Stargrunt specifically avoid point usage (and have a paragraph or two in the rules stating why). The whole concept of game balance leads to boring games and unimaginative scenarios, not to mention absolute game balance where dice (and terrain) are involved is completely impossible and just an illusion. These are all facts and are easily determined to be so, nothing in this paragraph is my opinion.
Please, cite facts backing up the underlined statement. Since you've asserted it's unarguable, you must have evidence of this. And the bold is not what people look for.
And I love that you jumped straight to "balance". That's not what I mentioned at all. Perhaps you need to read closer?
Balance is presumed with any tournament set of rules, can't have tournaments without balance... well, you could, but the complaints would put the KS comment thread to shame.
As for boring games and unimaginative scenarios. Games where both sides have equal "points" and roughly equal tactical ability come down to games of who rolls better when it counts. I have seen many, many, many 40K games and other tournaments being played. I don't see massive excitement, I don't see the game store owner telling them to keep quiet, I do not see that level of excitement. However, those tables that aren't doing "tournaments" and playing other miniature games that happens often. People have fun and get passionate, instead of just overly competitive and angry when things don't go their way. I'm sure you'll come back and say how much fun you and your table has, and how all the games are exciting, and people write up big scenarios before each, but based on the rules themselves and the way you have to do scenarios in tournaments, well, there is no way to have that kind of versatility in games where half a dozen scenario types are possible.
Yeah, no one has fun, or gets excited at the BAO, LVO, NOVA... And are you actually trying to say that 40k as a whole is balanced? Please tell me you are.
It's not just a "my table" thing. And I noticed you provided no evidence for your "factual" statement that "The whole concept of game balance leads to boring games and unimaginative scenarios."
Is WM/H boring? Is Flames of War boring? There's more, but hopefully you'll see that your "factual" statement isn't. And that I'm not attempting to address balance at all. If the rules set is well written, regardless of balance, tournaments can exist.
As for the illusion thing, yeah, sorry, but once you incorporate terrain, unit deployment, and dice into a game true balance is a mathematical impossibility. Sure, it may be close, usually, but there will be times when the balance is lost before the game starts, or by one person rolling better just a few times, at critical points. That lucky shot on turn 1 that took out that mega-unit worth 25% of your army just cost you the game, and it didn't matter how good you played or the equilibrium in point values of armies. Technically, true balance is probably mathematically impossible in any game between 2 people, though "pretty close" is not too hard.
And "pretty close" is all people ask for.
But how can I say "I'm #1" when a lucky die roll or two won me that final game against my opponent, who was tactically better, had a better force, better positioning, but the "force was not with him" when it came to die rolls? Its an illusion of superiority.
Rematches. How can the top poker players say that they're #1? By consistently getting there. If you're consistent - especially in a game where chance is involved - you're better overall.
rigeld2 wrote:Which is fine from a *balance* standpoint.
My point was that the *rules* and the *balance* are two different things.
Tournaments can create a balanced environment if the rules are good. Also, PB said they would have tournament support.
A game designer saying they have "tournament support" means they have "point costs for units". Heck, that isn't even a 100% requirement, you could have tournaments without even that. However PB has point costs, army formation, and scenario deployment, so in my book and many others sure that is "tournament support".
No, that's the bare minimum for a non-scenario game to exist. Calling it "tournament support" is laughable.
I'm saying that the game will not work in competitive tournaments. I saw this in a demo at Gencon. Carmen, the game designer, sat down for a demo with 2 guys. He asked "Do you want me to be nice, or be an a-hole?". They said "be an a-hole". The zentraedi didn't get a single kill, lost both of their glaugs, their gulnau, and most of their regults on turn 1 before they even got to move or do anything. This means they ended up with no command points, further reducing their capability. Turn 2 the UEDF took out all the buildings on the table (I'm a firm believer that the buildings should have 10x the MDC they do) and then proceeded to finish off the zentraedi. This was an "equal points" game, and even if the zentraedi was an ace player they couldn't have prevented what happened.
So sure, go play a tournament, have fun with that when your army is wiped from the map before you get a chance to do *anything*, and there is not a darned thing you can do to prevent it.
Again, you attack balance. Balance can be changed much easier than crappy rules.
To my knowledge the Destroid change appeared on the Pledge Manager, was never publicized. Pledgers brought it up and discussed it. For me not a huge change and understandable but it should have been communicated in an update. I'll have to look and see if it ever was.
1 Mini size is the beta rules?
2 Size of the squadrons is the beta rules?
3 I don't remember those rules, but I didn't pledge until later. Sure, it has *roots* in the RPG, but that's a different thing than saying the "Minis game is a Morph of the RPG game".
4 ZOMG ORG CHARTS. Have nothing to do with the price of tea in China. Try again?
5 Yay more force orgs!
So the only evidence you have to support your statement that, and I'll quote it so I'm not accused of putting words in your mouth,
They did show the beta rules during the KS. So honestly it should not be a surprise to anyone that the Minis game is a Morph of the RPG game. Nobody seemed to blink twice when the beta rules were released. If they had looked at those and seen the RPG rules they would have realized all the rest.
That's not the "beta rules". That's a quick start, and it says on every page "Rules still in development and subject to change." Pardon me if I don't take those at face value.
Additionally, the rules presented in that quick start aren't that bad. Sure, there's a couple things I have issues with (specifically the number of HtH attacks) but it's not horrible overall.
So how about you (finally) get off your high horse and understand that what was presented is not what is being sold. This isn't the miniatures wargame with an RPG tie in (what it should have been). It's a bunch of crap.
Plus it also depends on what you consider Morphing the rules. Many would agree with that statement others not so much since that is a relative term. So if you want o read the RPG and then the rules and then everything else we have and be surprised that's all up to you.
You were the one that used the word "morphing" - I just repeated you. And you admit that your statement of "So honestly it should not be a surprise to anyone that the Minis game is a Morph of the RPG game." was out of line and incorrect?
And remember, you said that people shouldn't have been surprised because of information received *during the kickstarter*. So "everything else we have" was pretty damn limited. Robotech RPG Tactics does not (to me, or many other people) say "Here, have some miniatures to use our RPG rules with." It, instead, says "Here's a miniature game that you can convert your RPG characters into to help cinematize your battles! Plus, it works on its own!"
The "surprise" you keep referring to isn't there for you because - and you might not be aware of this - you had more information than 98% of the people backing this kickstarter. I know - amazing right? Being involved with the play test rules gave you more insight than what the rest of us had. Shocking. And when you reported how the rules were, what were the responses you got? Mostly surprise that the crap RPG system was so prevalent in RRT.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bad_Syntax wrote: - The rules seem pretty nice and well put together. The book is easy to read and the rules are pretty easy to learn.
- The game is not for folks wanting competitive tournaments. If you are one of those folks, and want to play RRT in big competitive tournaments, I think you'll be disappointed.
These two statements should never be together. Ever. Because if the rules are nice and well put together they'll work fine in tournaments.
If they don't work in tournaments, they aren't "pretty nice and well put together".
- Regardless of what I was told in person, Palladium doesn't seem to be learning from some of their mistakes, an that is disconcerting. I will try to call them this week and say "wtf?".
No way - PB has failed to learn? I'm so surprised.
Kinda funny that your even freaking out on this point.
I'm "freaking out" because you made a very insulting statement and haven't supported it and refuse to apologize or take it back.
I'm sorry if you or others did not. I won't feel sorry one bit since it was a far cry from just me figuring that out. All I can say is, too bad for you? Nothing was ever hidden or secret about the origins of the game. Even the opening video on the KS says that it's based off the RPG. So if this is a sore point, note that its a not something that many of us see as a surprise.
You... you do understand that a games origins have literally nothing to do with the rules it uses, right?
I mean - none of the Lord of the Rings games requires you to read a few hundred pages of a book to play (or watch a 2-3 hour video).
Again though, who gives a crap what the official name/nomenclature is when in fact in the end it is a miniatures game in fact. It's made and designed for large battles and ill suited for many other systems like Heavy Gear and others as has been pointed out. I pointed out the origins to show that the game would not exist if it had not gone through the hands of PB as it is today as a Tactics/Miniatures version of the RPG.
You keep bringing up the name as "DUH ITS RPG DUH" and now you're trying to downplay that? Really?
So the time the pledge manager closed was around GenCon, that is likely why the destroids deal was never added to an update. Not excusing them, just stating the facts. Poor communication has spoken for itself many times.
1 Mini size is the beta rules?
2 Size of the squadrons is the beta rules?
3 I don't remember those rules, but I didn't pledge until later. Sure, it has *roots* in the RPG, but that's a different thing than saying the "Minis game is a Morph of the RPG game".
4 ZOMG ORG CHARTS. Have nothing to do with the price of tea in China. Try again?
5 Yay more force orgs!
So the only evidence you have to support your statement that, and I'll quote it so I'm not accused of putting words in your mouth,
They did show the beta rules during the KS. So honestly it should not be a surprise to anyone that the Minis game is a Morph of the RPG game. Nobody seemed to blink twice when the beta rules were released. If they had looked at those and seen the RPG rules they would have realized all the rest.
That's not the "beta rules". That's a quick start, and it says on every page "Rules still in development and subject to change." Pardon me if I don't take those at face value.
Additionally, the rules presented in that quick start aren't that bad. Sure, there's a couple things I have issues with (specifically the number of HtH attacks) but it's not horrible overall.
So how about you (finally) get off your high horse and understand that what was presented is not what is being sold. This isn't the miniatures wargame with an RPG tie in (what it should have been). It's a bunch of crap.
Plus it also depends on what you consider Morphing the rules. Many would agree with that statement others not so much since that is a relative term. So if you want o read the RPG and then the rules and then everything else we have and be surprised that's all up to you.
You were the one that used the word "morphing" - I just repeated you. And you admit that your statement of "So honestly it should not be a surprise to anyone that the Minis game is a Morph of the RPG game." was out of line and incorrect?
And remember, you said that people shouldn't have been surprised because of information received *during the kickstarter*. So "everything else we have" was pretty damn limited. Robotech RPG Tactics does not (to me, or many other people) say "Here, have some miniatures to use our RPG rules with." It, instead, says "Here's a miniature game that you can convert your RPG characters into to help cinematize your battles! Plus, it works on its own!"
The "surprise" you keep referring to isn't there for you because - and you might not be aware of this - you had more information than 98% of the people backing this kickstarter. I know - amazing right? Being involved with the play test rules gave you more insight than what the rest of us had. Shocking. And when you reported how the rules were, what were the responses you got? Mostly surprise that the crap RPG system was so prevalent in RRT.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bad_Syntax wrote: - The rules seem pretty nice and well put together. The book is easy to read and the rules are pretty easy to learn.
- The game is not for folks wanting competitive tournaments. If you are one of those folks, and want to play RRT in big competitive tournaments, I think you'll be disappointed.
These two statements should never be together. Ever. Because if the rules are nice and well put together they'll work fine in tournaments.
If they don't work in tournaments, they aren't "pretty nice and well put together".
- Regardless of what I was told in person, Palladium doesn't seem to be learning from some of their mistakes, an that is disconcerting. I will try to call them this week and say "wtf?".
No way - PB has failed to learn? I'm so surprised.
Kinda funny that your even freaking out on this point.
I'm "freaking out" because you made a very insulting statement and haven't supported it and refuse to apologize or take it back.
I'm sorry if you or others did not. I won't feel sorry one bit since it was a far cry from just me figuring that out. All I can say is, too bad for you? Nothing was ever hidden or secret about the origins of the game. Even the opening video on the KS says that it's based off the RPG. So if this is a sore point, note that its a not something that many of us see as a surprise.
You... you do understand that a games origins have literally nothing to do with the rules it uses, right?
I mean - none of the Lord of the Rings games requires you to read a few hundred pages of a book to play (or watch a 2-3 hour video).
Again though, who gives a crap what the official name/nomenclature is when in fact in the end it is a miniatures game in fact. It's made and designed for large battles and ill suited for many other systems like Heavy Gear and others as has been pointed out. I pointed out the origins to show that the game would not exist if it had not gone through the hands of PB as it is today as a Tactics/Miniatures version of the RPG.
You keep bringing up the name as "DUH ITS RPG DUH" and now you're trying to downplay that? Really?
So the fact that YOU did not realize that the minis rules , from the time we had that early release of the rules update meant supported that the RPG rules have been the basis for Tactics is something you find insulting? Sorry, but that is simple fact. I did not mean to insult just pointing it out. The idea was there, information was shared, the title of the game said it, the early release rules reinforced it. I just pointed out that the information was there. No misguidance or foul intentions existed in the creation of the rules.
Now you saying game origins have nothing to do with the rules, often that may be true. BUT the Lord of the Rings games uses magic like in the books and has the same bad guys as in the books, the monsters have the same names and traits as those in the books. So again this is a sticky point for you but not for me.
I'm not downplaying anything, just pointing out that even though you missed it, the information was there and was never hidden or misrepresented.
Kickstarter --> Robotech Tactic Home Page - FIRST LINE on the page
Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is a fast paced strategy battle game that expands on the popular Palladium role playing game.
The timing of the PM closing isn't relevant, because they clearly didn't just make that call in a snap choice. They answered questions about it, had it brought up (and responded to it), and even had multiple comments in updates on the VEF-1/D situation. They could have attended to it along with those, but simply didn't.
No idea why not, either. I imagine some people with a preference for one over the other, or for example getting 2 sets and hoping to do a 6/2 split, might be frustrated (especially among those seeking "Unseen" figures of specific types), but all told, it was a pretty small fry kinda issue.
They had over a year to address it and the closest they came to the best of my knowledge, is the "the PM is accurate" response.
Now, hopefully they were paying attention and made sure that kind of statement isn't on the packaging or in any product catalogs that might be included. That'd be bad.
Forar wrote: The timing of the PM closing isn't relevant, because they clearly didn't just make that call in a snap choice. They answered questions about it, had it brought up (and responded to it), and even had multiple comments in updates on the VEF-1/D situation. They could have attended to it along with those, but simply didn't.
No idea why not, either. I imagine some people with a preference for one over the other, or for example getting 2 sets and hoping to do a 6/2 split, might be frustrated (especially among those seeking "Unseen" figures of specific types), but all told, it was a pretty small fry kinda issue.
They had over a year to address it and the closest they came to the best of my knowledge, is the "the PM is accurate" response.
Now, hopefully they were paying attention and made sure that kind of statement isn't on the packaging or in any product catalogs that might be included. That'd be bad.
And if they did not change it they would get what they asked for. They periodically let "other" things have priority and forget about some of the details in updating us. The devil is always is in the details and will bite you in the ass if you don't try to share him with others as often as you can except when it is just not inappropriate to do so.
Mike1975 wrote: So the fact that YOU did not realize that the minis rules , from the time we had that early release of the rules update meant supported that the RPG rules have been the basis for Tactics is something you find insulting? Sorry, but that is simple fact. I did not mean to insult just pointing it out. The idea was there, information was shared, the title of the game said it, the early release rules reinforced it. I just pointed out that the information was there. No misguidance or foul intentions existed in the creation of the rules.
So you "fully admit" that "not all people have the ability to make the connection" and yet "The idea was there, information was shared, the title of the game said it, the early release rules reinforced it".
Seems like you're contradicting yourself here.
Now you saying game origins have nothing to do with the rules, often that may be true. BUT the Lord of the Rings games uses magic like in the books and has the same bad guys as in the books, the monsters have the same names and traits as those in the books. So again this is a sticky point for you but not for me.
Nope - not a single thing about what they share is RULES. Does it really take me pointing that out?
I'm not downplaying anything, just pointing out that even though you missed it, the information was there and was never hidden or misrepresented.
It was mispreresented.
If I was the only one who felt like I was going to get a Miniatures game with an RPG tie-in, I'd let it go. Read this thread - that's demonstrably not the case.
Kickstarter --> Robotech Tactic Home Page - FIRST LINE on the page
Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is a fast paced strategy battle game that expands on the popular Palladium role playing game.
Yup! Where in the underlined are the words I should use to infer that they're going to (essentially) copy and paste rules from the RPG into this fast paced game?
Quite often. Breetai literally kicking and body slamming Rick's VF-1J, Spartans punching Regults. Khyron's Glaug flailing on a Valkyrie Battloid, and many other scenes.
Even more so in DYRL when Maximillian literally punches open a Regult and blasts the Zentraedi in the face and his skull bits go flying, when Kamijin kills Roy Folker, when the N-Gers capture Hikaru and Minmay, etc.
Robotech and Macross are full of close combats. If the ruleset had no melee, it would be pretty far divorced from the source material.
So have 1 "Close combat" attack! Do we really need a dozen different CC attack types in a flying mechas game? Do they add enough to the game to be there? And if so, why so many special close combat moves and only 1 attack type for the gunpods? (which arguably are the "hero weapon" of the show) Why don't they have single shot, short burst, long burst, Alpha Strike, walking fire...?
Keeping in mind that I didn't order this game, so my logic might be off...
I'm wondering if there's a misunderstanding of intent here. Assuming that Robotech Tactics keeps the same vehicle stats as the Robotech RPG (which is what seems to be the case, based on what others have said), and the same damage values, then the problem isn't whether or not melee exists. The problem is the relative ineffectiveness of melee attacks in the Robotech RPG game. An on-screen event along the lines of Britai single-handedly trashing Vermillion Squadron in hand to hand combat is impossible under the RPG rules because Britai can't do enough damage using the RPG stats and damage rules.
Mike1975 wrote: Being a port from the RPG the 4+ missiles thing was brought over. I don't like it but I can kinda see the point but I do agree that in Macross and Robotech we have seen mecha dodge 6 or more missiles.
Keeping in mind that I didn't order this game, so my logic might be off...
I'm wondering if there's a misunderstanding of intent here. Assuming that Robotech Tactics keeps the same vehicle stats as the Robotech RPG (which is what seems to be the case, based on what others have said), and the same damage values, then the problem isn't whether or not melee exists. The problem is the relative ineffectiveness of melee attacks in the Robotech RPG game. An on-screen event along the lines of Britai single-handedly trashing Vermillion Squadron in hand to hand combat is impossible under the RPG rules because Britai can't do enough damage using the RPG stats and damage rules.
I'm not recently familiar with the RPG as I sold it all over 15 years ago (because it sucks, sucks so bad), but in Robotech RPG Tactics, Breetai can make three close combat attacks each turn and each one causes double damage with every hit, which is enough to single-handedly wreck a Battloid (14 MDC) just using two punches (4 apiece) and a kick (6) - not including the other bevy of attacks like Power Punch (which would cause 8 damage)
The Spartan also has boosted H2H attacks (+2 damage to all attacks, and 2 H2H attacks per turn) making the Spartan an excellent brawler, able to do more damage in H2H than with it's Gun Cluster and Lasers (especially when armed with a club)
Albertorius wrote: So have 1 "Close combat" attack! Do we really need a dozen different CC attack types in a flying mechas game? Do they add enough to the game to be there? And if so, why so many special close combat moves and only 1 attack type for the gunpods? (which arguably are the "hero weapon" of the show) Why don't they have single shot, short burst, long burst, Alpha Strike, walking fire...?
As an irony, it's been a long time but they did have various 'firing modes' in the RPG for gun pods and such, although there was minimal reason to use most other than ammo conservation.
judgedoug wrote: [I'm not recently familiar with the RPG as I sold it all over 15 years ago (because it sucks, sucks so bad), but in Robotech RPG Tactics, Breetai can make three close combat attacks each turn and each one causes double damage with every hit, which is enough to single-handedly wreck a Battloid (14 MDC) just using two punches (4 apiece) and a kick (6) - not including the other bevy of attacks like Power Punch (which would cause 8 damage)
The Spartan also has boosted H2H attacks (+2 damage to all attacks, and 2 H2H attacks per turn) making the Spartan an excellent brawler, able to do more damage in H2H than with it's Gun Cluster and Lasers (especially when armed with a club)
Now, see, in the RPG, a Veritech has roughly 200 MDC in its torso (iirc, a TBP has roughly 50).
Britai and the Spartan, however, do roughly the same amount of damage as you described.
Yeah. I believe there was even a damage listing for a single round, but who ever used that?
And while it's been ages since I looked at my books, in most Palladium stuff, the difference between a "punch" and a "kick" was usually a very minor tweak in damage. That's it. Having "Punch, Kick, Stomp, etc" really could just be "melee attack", and a few of the other options could be tied into a rider of "pay a command point, make a melee attack, instead of doing damage, do X, Y or Z", where X, Y and Z could be a mix of reduced damage and a different effect like moving the target.
Quite often. Breetai literally kicking and body slamming Rick's VF-1J, Spartans punching Regults. Khyron's Glaug flailing on a Valkyrie Battloid, and many other scenes.
Even more so in DYRL when Maximillian literally punches open a Regult and blasts the Zentraedi in the face and his skull bits go flying, when Kamijin kills Roy Folker, when the N-Gers capture Hikaru and Minmay, etc.
Robotech and Macross are full of close combats. If the ruleset had no melee, it would be pretty far divorced from the source material.
Quite often? That's ridiculous. You can probably find several DOZEN shots of ranged combat for EACH melee combat shot in most every episode. The problem that folks who post here have is that it has been given a focus DISPROPORTIONATE to its importance and prevalence in the show which we suspect is due to just carrying it over straight from the RPG. Having a valkyrie with more close combat options than shooting ones despite the fact that the vast majority of time it does the latter and only very rarely does the former is the issue. No one is advocating a complete lack of close combat options but rather a selection that is simpler and more in line with the show, not the clunky out of date RPG. For a game like this, a simple light, medium, heavy generic selection of melee attacks would have sufficed with a varied selection of which each mecha uses dependent on the actual mecha. Veritech for instance could have had light and medium whereas a gladiator/spartan could have had all three.. but the raidar X (sorry can't remember the japanese name for it) just has the light. Failing that, a simple limb attack/melee weapon/body block would have sufficed as well in recreating all the scenes Doug mentioned. The focus on something so relatively unimportant (but not absolutely unimportant) in a Robotech game is just indicative of the myriad misplaced priorities of palladium.
Now, see, in the RPG, a Veritech has roughly 200 MDC in its torso (iirc, a TBP has roughly 50).
Britai and the Spartan, however, do roughly the same amount of damage as you described.
So it appears through either deliberate planning or happy circumstance, the minis game is much closer to the source material than the RPG... which is absolutely a leap in the right direction.
judgedoug wrote: [I'm not recently familiar with the RPG as I sold it all over 15 years ago (because it sucks, sucks so bad), but in Robotech RPG Tactics, Breetai can make three close combat attacks each turn and each one causes double damage with every hit, which is enough to single-handedly wreck a Battloid (14 MDC) just using two punches (4 apiece) and a kick (6) - not including the other bevy of attacks like Power Punch (which would cause 8 damage)
The Spartan also has boosted H2H attacks (+2 damage to all attacks, and 2 H2H attacks per turn) making the Spartan an excellent brawler, able to do more damage in H2H than with it's Gun Cluster and Lasers (especially when armed with a club)
Now, see, in the RPG, a Veritech has roughly 200 MDC in its torso (iirc, a TBP has roughly 50).
Britai and the Spartan, however, do roughly the same amount of damage as you described.
2nd edition changed the MDC.
Now 350 MDC on a Valkyrie, and 125 MDC on a Regult. Punches do a couple d4 or d6 of damage.
warboss wrote: Quite often? That's ridiculous. You can probably find several DOZEN shots of ranged combat for EACH melee combat shot in most every episode. The problem that folks who post here have is that it has been given a focus DISPROPORTIONATE to its importance and prevalence in the show which we suspect is due to just carrying it over straight from the RPG. Having a valkyrie with more close combat options than shooting ones despite the fact that the vast majority of time it does the latter and only very rarely does the former is the issue. No one is advocating a complete lack of close combat options but rather a selection that is simpler and more in line with the show, not the clunky out of date RPG. For a game like this, a simple light, medium, heavy generic selection of melee attacks would have sufficed with a varied selection of which each mecha uses dependent on the actual mecha. Veritech for instance could have had light and medium whereas a gladiator/spartan could have had all three.. but the raidar X (sorry can't remember the japanese name for it) just has the light. Failing that, a simple limb attack/melee weapon/body block would have sufficed as well in recreating all the scenes Doug mentioned. The focus on something so relatively unimportant (but not absolutely unimportant) in a Robotech game is just indicative of the myriad misplaced priorities of palladium.
Sorry - not possible. You see, it's derived/morphed/expanded/copied from the RPG and therefore it's your fault for expecting anything other than RPG rules.
I can only imagine the look on someone at Palladium's face if you get to take a backer up on that.
"They want to transfer a pledge."
"Yes."
"for 1/3 what they paid for it."
".... yes."
"......... uh oh."
Also, if the RRT 'damage' is 1/20 the max damage of an attack in the RPG, hopefully a punch or kick is at least 3-4d6, otherwise it can't even justify doing a single damage pip in RRT. I suppose I could go looking for the damage values in RRT, but eh, lazy, and about to head home.
Mike1975 wrote: So the fact that YOU did not realize that the minis rules , from the time we had that early release of the rules update meant supported that the RPG rules have been the basis for Tactics is something you find insulting? Sorry, but that is simple fact. I did not mean to insult just pointing it out. The idea was there, information was shared, the title of the game said it, the early release rules reinforced it. I just pointed out that the information was there. No misguidance or foul intentions existed in the creation of the rules.
So you "fully admit" that "not all people have the ability to make the connection" and yet "The idea was there, information was shared, the title of the game said it, the early release rules reinforced it".
Seems like you're contradicting yourself here.
Well since nobody else chimed in I'm pretty sure you are the only person with an issues with this so I really see no point in arguing this any further. I never said the some was a large group.
Now you saying game origins have nothing to do with the rules, often that may be true. BUT the Lord of the Rings games uses magic like in the books and has the same bad guys as in the books, the monsters have the same names and traits as those in the books. So again this is a sticky point for you but not for me.
Nope - not a single thing about what they share is RULES. Does it really take me pointing that out?
If you could not see the connection there....sorry. Nothing I can to help that. Nothing I can say that will change this so I don't see a point in trying. Sometimes things are what they are.
I'm not downplaying anything, just pointing out that even though you missed it, the information was there and was never hidden or misrepresented.
It was mispreresented.
If I was the only one who felt like I was going to get a Miniatures game with an RPG tie-in, I'd let it go. Read this thread - that's demonstrably not the case.
Is that not what you're getting? What exactly is your definition of a minis game? I cannot answer for your expectations since I have no idea what they are or were. This is a minis game. You have rules for exactly that. They used the RPG as an inspiration to allow the license to go forward.
Kickstarter --> Robotech Tactic Home Page - FIRST LINE on the page
Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is a fast paced strategy battle game that expands on the popular Palladium role playing game.
Yup! Where in the underlined are the words I should use to infer that they're going to (essentially) copy and paste rules from the RPG into this fast paced game?
Did they? I've read the rules and I see many similarities. I was unaware that the 2nd Ed RPG used 6 sided dice or have rules for moving miniatures. Again, not sure what your expectations were/are but that's nothing that I can help you with.
We can go back and forth many more times. I don't see anything close to a resolution or understanding here since I really don't see what you central problem is other than a general complaint that the RTT is based off the RPG.
Forar wrote: Having "Punch, Kick, Stomp, etc" really could just be "melee attack", and a few of the other options could be tied into a rider of "pay a command point, make a melee attack, instead of doing damage, do X, Y or Z", where X, Y and Z could be a mix of reduced damage and a different effect like moving the target.
I am an advocate of abstraction over granularity if the results are the same. Hence why I'm a fan of the (aforementioned) Bolt Action combat which is very quick and very decisive and there's no H2H combat over turns. However, many players used to more detailed systems like 40k are totally thrown off by it. RRT is obviously more complex than BA but the H2H is still simpler than 40k's # of Attacks at WS vs WS then S vs T then Armor Save, which is already is quite natural for many players. RRT just has several H2H options, many of which won't be relevant for models with only one attack, and many mecha can't use them all. I haven't even played yet and I've already memorized what each does - basically like memorizing the base stats for models in traditional tabletop games. Use it a few times and you'll know it by heart.
As a summary;
Body Block - great for positioning
Club - effectively an "attack with melee weapon", once per turn
Grab - great for restraining mecha. Can easily see this being used in scenarios
Kick - can only be used once per turn
Jump Kick - once per turn and costs 1 CP Punch - unlimited
Power Punch - costs 1CP
Stomp - can only perform if you have multiple attacks
A Regult can only perform BB, Kick, Jump Kick, and Stomp. Since Regults have one attack, Stomp is useless unless it's a character of some sort. BB only causes 2 points but maybe you want to knock a Destroid off a cliff? So that leaves Kick or Jump Kick. Jump Kick costs 1CP and causes 5 MD. Kick is 3 MD. Your Regult's particle beams cause 4 MD. There's not going to be many circumstances where you're gonna be flying your Regults into H2H.
the H2H attacks like Stomp, Punch, etc are really only going to be used by mecha with multiple H2H attacks which - correct me if I'm wrong - are only the Spartan and a few characters which get +1 or +2 H2H attacks. You may spend 1CP per additional attack - but that's going to drain your CP pool quickly if you do a Kick then a Power Punch, which will cost you 2 CP (1 to make an extra attack and 1 just for the Power Punch alone).
TL;DR while I agree that the H2H options are excessive but the majority of them will only be used by a few mecha or characters in the game, or during especially gnarly H2H combats. It's effectively one half of one page that contains a list of all 8 of the melee weapons and options in the game. Meanwhile almost every mecha has several of it's own unique ranged weapons systems; dozens and dozens of unique weapon systems versus a handful of generic/shared H2H attacks puts it closer to warboss' desire of "You can probably find several DOZEN shots of ranged combat for EACH melee combat shot in most every episode" desired ratio.
Quite often. Breetai literally kicking and body slamming Rick's VF-1J, Spartans punching Regults. Khyron's Glaug flailing on a Valkyrie Battloid, and many other scenes.
Even more so in DYRL when Maximillian literally punches open a Regult and blasts the Zentraedi in the face and his skull bits go flying, when Kamijin kills Roy Folker, when the N-Gers capture Hikaru and Minmay, etc.
Robotech and Macross are full of close combats. If the ruleset had no melee, it would be pretty far divorced from the source material.
Quite often? That's ridiculous. You can probably find several DOZEN shots of ranged combat for EACH melee combat shot in most every episode. The problem that folks who post here have is that it has been given a focus DISPROPORTIONATE to its importance and prevalence in the show which we suspect is due to just carrying it over straight from the RPG. Having a valkyrie with more close combat options than shooting ones despite the fact that the vast majority of time it does the latter and only very rarely does the former is the issue. No one is advocating a complete lack of close combat options but rather a selection that is simpler and more in line with the show, not the clunky out of date RPG. For a game like this, a simple light, medium, heavy generic selection of melee attacks would have sufficed with a varied selection of which each mecha uses dependent on the actual mecha. Veritech for instance could have had light and medium whereas a gladiator/spartan could have had all three.. but the raidar X (sorry can't remember the japanese name for it) just has the light. Failing that, a simple limb attack/melee weapon/body block would have sufficed as well in recreating all the scenes Doug mentioned. The focus on something so relatively unimportant (but not absolutely unimportant) in a Robotech game is just indicative of the myriad misplaced priorities of palladium.
Or an understanding that the game must keep the idea that the connection to the RPG intact because the license requires it to a certain extent.
Forar wrote: Having "Punch, Kick, Stomp, etc" really could just be "melee attack", and a few of the other options could be tied into a rider of "pay a command point, make a melee attack, instead of doing damage, do X, Y or Z", where X, Y and Z could be a mix of reduced damage and a different effect like moving the target.
I am an advocate of abstraction over granularity if the results are the same. Hence why I'm a fan of the (aforementioned) Bolt Action combat which is very quick and very decisive and there's no H2H combat over turns. However, many players used to more detailed systems like 40k are totally thrown off by it. RRT is obviously more complex than BA but the H2H is still simpler than 40k's # of Attacks at WS vs WS then S vs T then Armor Save, which is already is quite natural for many players. RRT just has several H2H options, many of which won't be relevant for models with only one attack, and many mecha can't use them all. I haven't even played yet and I've already memorized what each does - basically like memorizing the base stats for models in traditional tabletop games. Use it a few times and you'll know it by heart.
As a summary;
Body Block - great for positioning
Club - effectively an "attack with melee weapon", once per turn
Grab - great for restraining mecha. Can easily see this being used in scenarios
Kick - can only be used once per turn
Jump Kick - once per turn and costs 1 CP Punch - unlimited
Power Punch - costs 1CP
Stomp - can only perform if you have multiple attacks
A Regult can only perform BB, Kick, Jump Kick, and Stomp. Since Regults have one attack, Stomp is useless unless it's a character of some sort. BB only causes 2 points but maybe you want to knock a Destroid off a cliff? So that leaves Kick or Jump Kick. Jump Kick costs 1CP and causes 5 MD. Kick is 3 MD. Your Regult's particle beams cause 4 MD. There's not going to be many circumstances where you're gonna be flying your Regults into H2H.
the H2H attacks like Stomp, Punch, etc are really only going to be used by mecha with multiple H2H attacks which - correct me if I'm wrong - are only the Spartan and a few characters which get +1 or +2 H2H attacks. You may spend 1CP per additional attack - but that's going to drain your CP pool quickly if you do a Kick then a Power Punch, which will cost you 2 CP (1 to make an extra attack and 1 just for the Power Punch alone).
TL;DR while I agree that the H2H options are excessive but the majority of them will only be used by a few mecha or characters in the game, or during especially gnarly H2H combats. It's effectively one half of one page that contains a list of all 8 of the melee weapons and options in the game. Meanwhile almost every mecha has several of it's own unique ranged weapons systems; dozens and dozens of unique weapon systems versus a handful of generic/shared H2H attacks puts it closer to warboss' desire of "You can probably find several DOZEN shots of ranged combat for EACH melee combat shot in most every episode" desired ratio.
Exactly my POV.
Hand to Hand is really not worth it except in 3 cases
1. A Zen or Malcontent player has another players destroids outnumbered and he can reduce their firepower by getting into hand to hand because they cannot fire in hand to hand combat and help their buddies and it helps reduce their overwhelming firepower. IF you are in range to move into hand to hand with a pod or two you are most likely to be better off sitting still and using the Focus Fire of the pod and Accuracy of the main guns so now you can fire your primary and secondary weapon for free and can hit easier. So you get a 50% increase in firepower and an increase in accuracy.
2. You have something like a FPA that is behind enemy lines that will die really quickly unless she does something to prevent the other units from firing on her. Zooming up a squadron of FPA and going HtH with a Mac II would be interesting since the Mac can no longer fire and the FPA cannot be fired on. The only hope for the Mac is some nearby units coming to the rescue.
3. You have units that excel in Hand to Hand like a Spartan and want to duke it out. A Spartan can kill two pods in a turn in Hand to Hand. It gets 2 attacks and each does 2 more points of damage. He can attack twice and kill 2 Regults.
2. You have something like a FPA that is behind enemy lines that will die really quickly unless she does something to prevent the other units from firing on her. Zooming up a squadron of FPA and going HtH with a Mac II would be interesting since the Mac can no longer fire and the FPA cannot be fired on. The only hope for the Mac is some nearby units coming to the rescue.
3. You have units that excel in Hand to Hand like a Spartan and want to duke it out. A Spartan can kill two pods in a turn in Hand to Hand. It gets 2 attacks and each does 2 more points of damage. He can attack twice and kill 2 Regults.
2. Even then the RDF player can just pay CP to disengage the Monster, and then blast the FPA with some nearby Tomahawks.
3. Which is at least referenced in the source footage with Spartans duking it out in H2H (and then of course turn into a black smudge a few frames later) Though a club is actually 4 MD, +2, followed by a power punch at 4MD, +2 so yeah, 6 points per punch. So actually a Spartan can tear apart a N-Ger or Q-Rau with both attacks, excellent!
Actually, now I really really want to play a bunch of Spartans in a boarding action against Zentraedi armored infantry and N-Gers.
Swabby wrote: There is no way that the rules system can be considered a decent simulation of the show.
If it was everything that wasn't a character would die in one shot, and Khyron would be capable of riding a monster into battle.
The show is so inconsistent, there is no way anything can be a decent simulation of the show.
On other news, I got arms glued together on my 5 guardians finally!!! Woah, those arms are freaking hard as hell to get together and positioned right. They *REALLY* should have been just 1 piece plus the gun or fist, ugh.
Only 5 battloids left, and then the fighter/guardian wing weapons and I'll be done!!! Well, I have the 2 tomahawks too, but all the half parts have been glued together and I may try to magnetize the torso, arms, and or missile pods on them, still thinking on it. However, they are far easier to assemble than the arms of the battloid/guardians, which are the hardest things in the game by a long shot.
Bad_Syntax wrote: The show is so inconsistent, there is no way anything can be a decent simulation of the show.
In that case a tight set of balanced rules would be preferable to a seriously flawed attempt at simulating it.
An easy accusation to make when one has
1. Not read the rules
2. has little knowledge of the units and how they play
3. has not even played a single game.
Before firing shots and going crazy why don't we try it first? I have and although it's not perfect, no system I've found has had that distinction yet. I have thought it a lot of fun and pretty well done and an accurate reflection of the cartoon. Just because there are no rules for Khyron not riding a Monster does not mean its a flawed system. You could pick out things like that for ANY system. Shoot, there is no way to do a lot of things like try to rescue a woman in free fall with a veritech in guardian mode or for crashing through buildings when you land. The Heavy Artillery Pods are too costly by 2x IMO but other than that everything else is pretty well worth the points that it costs in the game and hence balanced.
Bad_Syntax wrote: Well, since I am not real sure what I'll be getting, it'll be a surprise!
Still, what can you ask for <$2 per miniature? I'm surprised we have all the head/pose/weapon options that we do.
This is such a bad argument I'm surprised people still try to make it. You're basically implying "Hey, these things suck at RRP. For those who didn't get into the KS? It's not worth it"
1. Not read the rules
2. has little knowledge of the units and how they play
3. has not even played a single game.
Before firing shots and going crazy why don't we try it first? I have and although it's not perfect, no system I've found has had that distinction yet. I have thought it a lot of fun and pretty well done and an accurate reflection of the cartoon. Just because there are no rules for Khyron not riding a Monster does not mean its a flawed system. You could pick out things like that for ANY system. Shoot, there is no way to do a lot of things like try to rescue a woman in free fall with a veritech in guardian mode or for crashing through buildings when you land. The Heavy Artillery Pods are too costly by 2x IMO but other than that everything else is pretty well worth the points that it costs in the game and hence balanced.
1. No one is firing shots or going crazy here.
2. I have read the rules and found them lacking.
3. Knowledge of the units and their interactions comes with reading the rules. There are large holes in how units interact with each other in the rules.
4. I have watched more Macross in my time than is probably healthy, these rules reflect the RPG, not the show.
The system is flawed for other reasons, like defining elevation as a thing for LOS but ignoring it for all other purposes. The rules interactions that we have already discussed are not the hallmarks of a good rules sytem. The RPG that the game is based on is a terrible rules system, how could this one escape without suffering some of the same? And mike the monster thing is tongue in cheek, I could easily model a zentradi model on top of a monster and call it my command monster. People are arguing that the rules simulate the show, and they don't, they simulate the RPG, which only has basis in Kevin's ideas about the show. There are far better systems for simulating anime action than PB's system.
Bad_Syntax wrote: Well, since I am not real sure what I'll be getting, it'll be a surprise!
Still, what can you ask for <$2 per miniature? I'm surprised we have all the head/pose/weapon options that we do.
This is such a bad argument I'm surprised people still try to make it. You're basically implying "Hey, these things suck at RRP. For those who didn't get into the KS? It's not worth it"
Noooo, a battlecry had 85 miniatures for $140, roughly $1.65 each.
The first contact (the retail boxed set) has 36 miniatures for $100 (though you can betcha you can get it for $80 pretty quick off non-palladium sites, excluding ebay), so still under $3.
Under $3 for these miniatures is *still* a great deal. The regults are nearly twice the size of a space marines, and the gulnau is bigger than space marine bike.
For the price, they don't have to be "GW Quality". Granted, I would have preferred paying 2x as much and getting GW quality, but I have 384 Regults coming and that in itself will be quite fun!
Bad_Syntax wrote: Well, since I am not real sure what I'll be getting, it'll be a surprise!
Still, what can you ask for <$2 per miniature? I'm surprised we have all the head/pose/weapon options that we do.
This is such a bad argument I'm surprised people still try to make it. You're basically implying "Hey, these things suck at RRP. For those who didn't get into the KS? It's not worth it"
Yeah, I hate it when this comes up. It's literally "damning with faint praise".
5k players worldwide is a drop in the bucket. There are probably more people playing warhammer or x-wing these days in Ontario alone. If this isn't considered sufficiently valuable to be profitable, shops won't carry it (just like most don't carry PB books), and due to the book issue, it may even be more harmful, in that it will simply reinforce the belief that they don't produce things people buy. Shops (online and physical) discount bin things to get rid of them and free up space, and the only distributor eventually becomes the secondary market and Palladium themselves.
If we want this game to thrive. If we want opponents to be commonly available without having to hound or harass friends and supply the entirety of both forces ourselves, this needs to be a worthwhile buy for more than just the backers.
"Oh, they're a great deal at $2" does not help when they MSRP at $6-12 apiece and are for sale in the $4-9 apiece range (plus taxes and shipping as applicable). Even if that cost isn't horrifically out from the standard it'll be compared against, nostalgia alone will only go so far to draw in people for more than the entry fee.
And yes, luckily the Core Set helps start players off in the $2 per mini range ($75 for 35 minis, plus taxes/shipping if applicable), but much like people eventually want to branch out from X-Wings versus TIE Fighters in their 1-2+ core sets, dipping into non-core units is going to add up, and discretionary income only goes so far.
Shop shelf space is valuable. Online retailer warehouse/storage space is valuable. Distributor space is valuable. If this gak isn't selling, there are going to be problems.
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Bad_Syntax wrote: Noooo, a battlecry had 85 miniatures for $140, roughly $1.65 each.
The first contact (the retail boxed set) has 36 miniatures for $100 (though you can betcha you can get it for $80 pretty quick off non-palladium sites, excluding ebay), so still under $3.
Under $3 for these miniatures is *still* a great deal. The regults are nearly twice the size of a space marines, and the gulnau is bigger than space marine bike
Incorrect.
A Battle Cry has 96 figures in it, 97 with the extra Battloid on the sprue.
Also incorrect; a Core Box has 35 figures in it, not 36 (12 battle pods, 3 command pods, 4 destroids, 5 VTs (15 figures) plus an extra Battloid).
But you are entirely missing the point; nobody else gets the Kickstarter premium. The good deal we got has zero to do with how expensive this game is going to be at retail, and at retail, a Battle Cry worth of figures would be something like $500-600. Maybe more, depending on how stiff the demand is versus the supply for the Limited Edition figures.
The Backers got an incredible deal. Those Showdowns and Recklesses may well represent literally thousands of dollars (just at Retail, more at MSRP) worth of stuff.
People buying in at retail (even heavily discounted sellers like Miniature Market) will be paying 2-5 times what we did, depending on the figures in question.
"Oh, they can just buy from all these whiny backers threatening to sell their stuff", some might say. Again, on a *global* scale that only goes so far. For simplicity sake (it's not perfect), let's call each Battle Cry worth effectively 2 core boxes with some leftovers. Even if every backer sold their packages on the open market, those 5k players might get 10k set with a light start to play small (150-300?) point games. Minimal force diversity, and everything left would be at the aforementioned retail prices.
This will not be a success if it that success relies on the value found in the Kickstarter.
So, according to BS argument, the current figures are okay cause they're in the Starter box and that's less than 3 dollars a figure. Okay, then my next question is this, will the figures that are not included in the starter be much better quality then? I think we have some figures in wave 1 that aren't in the starter don't we? I'm not too sure on this so if someone could clarify this, this would be great
Sining wrote: So, according to BS argument, the current figures are okay cause they're in the Starter box and that's less than 3 dollars a figure. Okay, then my next question is this, will the figures that are not included in the starter be much better quality then? I think we have some figures in wave 1 that aren't in the starter don't we? I'm not too sure on this so if someone could clarify this, this would be great
Correct:
The Spartan and Phalanx are not in the starter set, nor are the Support Battlepods (the light/heavy artillery pods).
The latter didn't really cause a stir when we saw stuff, though Palladium said they'd get a test sprue built up and never bothered to actually do it.
The former.. well... it is called "Spartangate", after all. The model was 'fixed' to a degree, but I remain wary.
Well since nobody else chimed in I'm pretty sure you are the only person with an issues with this so I really see no point in arguing this any further. I never said the some was a large group.
No one else has chimed in because arguing with you is often somewhere between shouting at a brick wall and talking to someone walking backwards with goalposts in their pocket.
Now you saying game origins have nothing to do with the rules, often that may be true. BUT the Lord of the Rings games uses magic like in the books and has the same bad guys as in the books, the monsters have the same names and traits as those in the books. So again this is a sticky point for you but not for me.
Nope - not a single thing about what they share is RULES. Does it really take me pointing that out?
If you could not see the connection there....sorry. Nothing I can to help that. Nothing I can say that will change this so I don't see a point in trying. Sometimes things are what they are.
I see a connection, but there's not a single thing telling me that THE RULES will be the same. That's what you literally refuse to accept. Yes, I saw a connection between RRT the Kickstarter and PB's RPG. It's what held me to so little in the first place.
Is that not what you're getting? What exactly is your definition of a minis game? I cannot answer for your expectations since I have no idea what they are or were. This is a minis game. You have rules for exactly that. They used the RPG as an inspiration to allow the license to go forward.
No, using it as an inspiration would be nods in the rules to the RPG (using MDC for hit points, etc). Not direct translations (ie direct conversions) of RPG stats and rules.
Did they? I've read the rules and I see many similarities. I was unaware that the 2nd Ed RPG used 6 sided dice or have rules for moving miniatures. Again, not sure what your expectations were/are but that's nothing that I can help you with.
Do you understand what the word essentially means? The fact that you see many similarities is the exact problem I'm referencing.
We can go back and forth many more times. I don't see anything close to a resolution or understanding here since I really don't see what you central problem is other than a general complaint that the RTT is based off the RPG.
My complaint right now is that you insulted people who dared to think that RRT's rules wouldn't be the train wreck that the RPG's rules are. And you seem okay with that. And blame them as if they had foreknowledge that the rules would be thus. It's a silly position that has no basis in ... anything really, but one that you feel is unassailable.
Sure, maybe if someone had the RPG fresh in their minds and knew how KS worked in general and knew that ND was going to have little/no input in the actual rules and knew that the "beta" rules that were subject to change weren't going to change (much) there's no reason for surprise.
Personally, I expected the impossible to dodge more than 4 missiles thing to go away. Who ever fired 4 missiles in the RPG? Anyone? Ever?
Mike1975 wrote: Well since nobody else chimed in I'm pretty sure you are the only person with an issues with this so I really see no point in arguing this any further.
This is a fallacy. It's actually not far off from the choice that garnered Palladium so much ire a month ago; assuming that those who don't speak up are on their side (assuming that people who haven't spoken up are on any side is ill advised).
Bad form, Mike. Debate the statements as presented. Don't hide behind 'oh, well there isn't a huge outcry so clearly it's not a big deal for anyone but you.'
If *everyone* with an issue spoke up *every* time that issue was address, this thread would be eighty thousand pages long and nobody would give a gak what was said because 98% of the posts would be "me too" or "yeah!' or "+1" or "nope" or "you're crazy" or some variation thereof.
OK, so I showed Chessex the image that I would like and told them the solid opaque yellow colored die, they will work on a sample or tomorrow. Price depends on order size.
25-99 $0.75 each
100-199 $0.65 each
200+ $0.50 each or less.
Battlecry's come with 12 from each faction
Showdowns come with 24 from each faction
so if you want a matching amount...
I should have a sample run up to post a pic tomorrow. For a big order I could buy them and have you guys pay me for the dice and shipping and then I'd send them out. I'd have to figure shipping. Likely $4-5 or so with a bubble envelope. Maybe more, depends on the weight of 24 or 12 dice. That might not be necessary as he said if the order was large enough he still might work us a deal for all the added individual orders....that means they would give something of a discount and ship directly from their shop.
If you think another base color for the die or symbol would work better let me know.
Battlecry's come with 12 from each faction
Showdowns come with 24 from each faction
so if you want a matching amount...
So far then....
Mike Arnold (24)
Doc Brookshire (24)
Allen Morrison (24)
Chris Cole (36)
Thomas Roache (24)
Kiloden -- KS Comments (24)
Jaymz LaFlamme (12)
David Johnston (12)
Robert Wertz (24)
Peter T Pidrak (24)
Richard Klepper (24)
Mike1975 wrote: Well since nobody else chimed in I'm pretty sure you are the only person with an issues with this so I really see no point in arguing this any further.
This is a fallacy. It's actually not far off from the choice that garnered Palladium so much ire a month ago; assuming that those who don't speak up are on their side (assuming that people who haven't spoken up are on any side is ill advised).
Bad form, Mike. Debate the statements as presented. Don't hide behind 'oh, well there isn't a huge outcry so clearly it's not a big deal for anyone but you.'
If *everyone* with an issue spoke up *every* time that issue was address, this thread would be eighty thousand pages long and nobody would give a gak what was said because 98% of the posts would be "me too" or "yeah!' or "+1" or "nope" or "you're crazy" or some variation thereof.
This was not a debate. I made a point, he did not like it. Not everyone realized that this is based off the RPG, but the information was there, was never hidden or kept secret like a conspiracy. It's nothing I was involved in or could change. I saw no reason to debate something that cannot be debated and did not seem to be a surprise. It was not my intention to insult. If that was how it was taken sorry, but the facts speak for themselves.
It's a conversation and you proclaimed that since nobody else has a problem with what was being discussed, clearly it's not that big a deal.
Man, it doesn't have to be a formal debate with a moderator and a bunch of students in ill fitting suits to have fallacies in it.
There are literally over 7,000 users online on these forums right now. Decrying an issue because only one or a few people are commenting on it isn't doing any other points you might have any favours. Discussions aren't just for trying to sway the viewpoints of the people being talked to, but for presenting ones views to those who might be looking on. Lurkers and irregular participants alike.
Effectively telling them 'speak up or feth you' isn't winning any friends, even if it's not intended. Speak to those who aren't speaking, don't try to speak for them.
As I noted, PB tried that, and despite a 3 to 1 advantage in the results of their "poll", I'd say it generated a lot of ill will it didn't need to. Let's keep that cautionary tale in mind, especially somewhere that isn't remotely as optimistic about the product/company in question.
This was not a poll, this was not discussion. This was someone upset that I pointed out that the game was never advertised as something derived from the RPG and clearly unhappy with the results. Clearly from day one it was shared where the game got its roots. Many of us even here spoke of the conversions from the RPG to Tactics and how they were done. This was also done on RobotechGameCenter.com and in the KS comments and on the Facebook page. It's splattered all over the place.
Now how someone reads what is written and interprets it or fails to read it and interprets the situation is something I cannot control. The only other excuse would be coming into the KS late in the game and not reading over the main page and making many assumptions. Being human nature this is very likely since people see Robotech and jumped on it. What happened recently is simply this.
1. I pointed out the game had to be based on the RPG for licensing purposes.
2. That fact was disputed since not all believed it.
3. It was shown as to be true.
4. Person got upset they did not understand that the origins were indeed directly connected to the RPG for licensing the game.
5. People got upset naturally and since I was the one that pointed out #1 and #3 the frustration comes at me for them not seeing it.
I cannot change any of those 5 items. So debating them and getting upset over them will not have produce an outcome as I cannot change that they are upset and their view that it was not clearly stated. In essence I agree to disagree and move on and simply point out that the information was never a secret and that PB never purposefully misled people with respect to the origins of the game.
Since this thread is descending back to hyperbole;
Mike - please put me down for 12 of those dice, let me know when/where to send Paypal to.
Have you played any games inside buildings? I've got the sci fi battlesystems card terrain coming and I'd like to do the failed Daedalus attack against Breetai's Nupetiet-Vergnitzs with Regults battling their way past RDF mecha into Macross City.
And I don't mean to sound callous or like an ass but there simply are some things that I cannot change. This is one of them. You can never change an initial perception of something. You can help people understand the correct perception but if they are upset that their initial perception was not the same as mine that is something in the past and something that cannot be changed.
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judgedoug wrote: Since this thread is descending back to hyperbole;
Mike - please put me down for 12 of those dice, let me know when/where to send Paypal to.
Have you played any games inside buildings? I've got the sci fi battlesystems card terrain coming and I'd like to do the failed Daedalus attack against Breetai's Nupetiet-Vergnitzs with Regults battling their way past RDF mecha into Macross City.
Gotcha down for 12.
I'm still waiting on the Battle Systems stuff to arrive. :(
We're conversing. It's a discussion. Unless you want to share emails from The Man himself, your statements of 'fact' are not immune to being challenged, especially when those assertions are tied to subjective matters, such as what people read into statements and information we were being presented nearly 2 years ago.
You keep using loaded language like "getting upset". You know what seems to be getting people upset, more than the 'facts' in dispute? Telling people how they feel. That right there is *obnoxious*. It was bullgak when Big Kev did it a couple of times in the updates, and it's obnoxious now.
A forum is a place of discourse. If you think that you can just Drop Truth Bombs and be immune to people pushing back with their own statements, you're mistaken. As someone with 'insider info' (early rules access, apparently lengthy discussions with PB folks) you may have more of the picture than many of us, but that doesn't make what you say The Word Of Law or some such, and imo puts an even greater emphasis on expressing not just your statements, but context and background information.
You're coming across here as not being interested in conversing with anyone, and if not, why participate? You have the potential to branch out to what is, frankly, a somewhat hostile environment, and draw people in to a game/series you clearly have passion for.
But time and again, from this to 'the great skirmish debate' to 'what's an official rule, really?' and more, you show yourself not interested in feedback, critique or opposing viewpoints. You just want to express yourself and have people applaud it.
And yet in the rules section there was work done and critique, feedback and considerations made and given, so you're capable of doing it, at least within the parameters you set.
Unfortunately, life is full of people who have no interest in staying within the tightly defined lines you or I might wish ruled the day.
As I said, you're better than that. But if you disagree we might as well just hit Ignore for each other and get passed dealing with one another at all.
FYI, the Chessex guy says they have around 500 in the yellow color so if we go over that or if you want another color.....
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Forar wrote: Man, you are just all over the place here.
We're conversing. It's a discussion. Unless you want to share emails from The Man himself, your statements of 'fact' are not immune to being challenged, especially when those assertions are tied to subjective matters, such as what people read into statements and information we were being presented nearly 2 years ago.
You keep using loaded language like "getting upset". You know what seems to be getting people upset, more than the 'facts' in dispute? Telling people how they feel. That right there is *obnoxious*. It was bullgak when Big Kev did it a couple of times in the updates, and it's obnoxious now.
A forum is a place of discourse. If you think that you can just Drop Truth Bombs and be immune to people pushing back with their own statements, you're mistaken. As someone with 'insider info' (early rules access, apparently lengthy discussions with PB folks) you may have more of the picture than many of us, but that doesn't make what you say The Word Of Law or some such, and imo puts an even greater emphasis on expressing not just your statements, but context and background information.
You're coming across here as not being interested in conversing with anyone, and if not, why participate? You have the potential to branch out to what is, frankly, a somewhat hostile environment, and draw people in to a game/series you clearly have passion for.
But time and again, from this to 'the great skirmish debate' to 'what's an official rule, really?' and more, you show yourself not interested in feedback, critique or opposing viewpoints. You just want to express yourself and have people applaud it.
And yet in the rules section there was work done and critique, feedback and considerations made and given, so you're capable of doing it, at least within the parameters you set.
Unfortunately, life is full of people who have no interest in staying within the tightly defined lines you or I might wish ruled the day.
As I said, you're better than that. But if you disagree we might as well just hit Ignore for each other and get passed dealing with one another at all.
See, this was not due to insider info or something. The information was there and never hidden. People can argue that all they want. They can decide they did or did not read and understand it. On this point I think the matter is quite clear. It was there on the main page, there in the quick look or however we want to call it.
The debate is more on whether people saw the information and took it at its face value or not. Again how people took something and perceived it is not something I can change. To that end I choose not to spend another 20 posts trying to change something that I cannot and focus on things that I can. I do not see that as mistreatment in any way. Sometimes it is better to accept that and move on.
Mike1975 wrote: See, this was not due to insider info or something. The information was there and never hidden. People can argue that all they want. They can decide they did or did not read and understand it. On this point I think the matter is quite clear. It was there on the main page, there in the quick look or however we want to call it.
The debate is more on whether people saw the information and took it at its face value or not. Again how people took something and perceived it is not something I can change. To that end I choose not to spend another 20 posts trying to change something that I cannot and focus on things that I can. I do not see that as mistreatment in any way. Sometimes it is better to accept that and move on.
There is a difference between "that isn't how I saw it" and "fact; that's not how it was".
Even if you intended to state your views akin to the former, you're coming across as the latter.
Bullet pointed lists of Facts are generally not indicative of a 'this is just my perspective' statement.
And yet in the rules section there was work done and critique, feedback and considerations made and given, so you're capable of doing it, at least within the parameters you set.
You know that separate Robotech rules thread was made with - by mod pre-approval and permission - specifically because this thread is nearly useless for actually discussing the game? On nearly every page is some veiled personal attack or people declaring they demand apologies (or pretending they've gotten one).
judgedoug wrote: You know that separate Robotech rules thread was made with - by mod pre-approval and permission - specifically because this thread is nearly useless for actually discussing the game? On nearly every page is some veiled personal attack or people declaring they demand apologies (or pretending they've gotten one).
judgedoug wrote: I would like to formally make a request to the mods that a separate thread related solely to Robotech rules discussions be allowed to be created without being locked.
As we get closer to the arrival of the Robotech game, and with the entire rulebook available online to be viewed, I'd really like to discuss aspects of the game engine and not have to sift through the myriad volume of complaints related to the fulfillment of the Kickstarter.
I'd rather not just create a new thread without mod approval as it might seem like a separate redundant thread since this thread does have the occasional rules discussion.
Yes, this sounds like a good idea. Please go ahead and open a Rules Discussion thread in this same sub-forum.
Talk about Palladium PR, KS delivery issues, and miniature quality can stay ITT. Thanks!
Hey Manchu, can you confirm that the second thread was allowed because "this thread is nearly useless for actually discussing the game", as opposed to "it's a big enough topic to warrant multiple threads, and allow each to progress without people having to slog through piles of KS fulfillment discussion / rules, as is their prerogative"?
Because JD here seems to feel pretty strongly it's one way, and my possibly incorrect interpretation of the discussions that we have had over the last glorious year and a half lead me to think it's the other.
The other thread was meant for discussing the rules. But people keep posting ITT about how awful the rules supposedly are so I guess it is inevitable that folks who don't think the rules are so awful might also post ITT.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Mike I would also like 12 of the Malcontent dice. I will PM you as well in case this request gets lost.
It was good of Mike to point out that initial impressions or expectations happen and may go contrary to "facts" that may have been available.
I was one of those people who thought the rule set was in a condition for lots of input and available for change during the launch cycle.
"Based on the RPG" was evident and you have to start from somewhere, but I had the impression it was to be more like "guidelines".
Now knowing the legal side-stepping involved (till much later), the closer to the RPG, the better, to shield against "improper" use of the IP license.
No matter how "evident" this direction may have been, at the time of the kickstarter the impression was the game was not going to be in lock-step with Kevin's Robotech RPG (which is not a great basis for skirmish I would agree with other's opinions, I did OK with it as an RPG only because I was used to it).
If I wanted Robotech models, I can buy them anytime and of better quality (maybe not at the same scale!), if I wanted Robotech RPG I already have the first edition books,
I wanted a Robotech tabletop wargame, not some unholy Frankenstein.
Other than the "deal" in models, I really think I would have never bothered with the kickstarter to begin-with if I REALLY knew what it entailed, which I think is exactly what PB was afraid of.
I don't regret my pledge in the slightest, except maybe that I should have gotten more stuff (including the Battlefoam Bag).
I think the rules and miniatures are pretty good for my purposes (casual games with friends) and hobby skill level. I can see why people with pro-painting skills would prefer nicer models. I can see why folks who have the most fun playing in tournaments would prefer tighter rules.
Above all else, I can sympathize with people who have been put off by PB's hamfisted attempts at PR and the long delays. Agreed that PB has not handled this KS with grace and poise. And maybe the most vocal critics have accomplished something -- maybe PB would be even less transparent without their efforts.
That said, I feel confident the product will eventually arrive and, as I mentioned, the quality of everything is totally satisfactory for my purposes.
judgedoug wrote: You know that separate Robotech rules thread was made with - by mod pre-approval and permission - specifically because this thread is nearly useless for actually discussing the game? On nearly every page is some veiled personal attack or people declaring they demand apologies (or pretending they've gotten one).
"Based on the RPG" was evident and you have to start from somewhere, but I had the impression it was to be more like "guidelines".
This seems to be the current rallying cry but having read the rules several times - actually, dozens of times in some instances - there is very little similarity between RRT's rules and the Palladium Megaversal system. Some names are the same - such as the 8 melee options - but the mechanics are totally different. There's even a section on page 92-94 about converting RPG characters and data to RRT because the systems are not the same.
An apt comparison would be the Starship Troopers book versus film. They share the same name, some characters and locations have the same name, but are vastly different under the hood.
Unless I'm missing something major - could someone point out to me which page in the RRT rules is the RPG re-skinned?
If you want a direct RPG-to-Wargame ruleset, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 1st edition and Warhammer Fantasy Battles use the exact same stats (with BS and WS extrapolated to 100-based instead of 10-based), and is a more direct conversion than RRT is to RRPG.
uhh just a quick point for those who said the game is to recreate scenes from the show, it begs the question why play Zentraedi at all since they always lose, my perception of the game is supposed to be like 40K with equal forces on both sides duking it out, I didn't buy this game to play as an RPG but as a miniatures game.
The problem is mate all their battles the Zentraedi lost, they failed to achieve their objectives which was their main objective which was to capture the SDF-1.
Their main objective was not their only objective. There are a lot of steps to winning a war. Furthermore "capture the SDF-1" is the wrong scale of objective for RRT. I mean, I could see capturing the SDF-1 being a campaign goal but not the result of one game.
In any case, your entire line of argument mischaracterizes the counterposition. To jog your memory:
Manchu wrote: A lot of historicals don't care about concepts like balance because they are primarily interested in simulation. Something similar is the case here, except it is a matter of emulation. The game is supposed to emulate the show. It's not so much a matter of, say, favoring the UEDF or something. It's just that the rules are or at least seem to be primarily designed to allow players to recreate what they experience watching RoboTech.
Manchu wrote: This thread is primarily for discussing the KS.
The other thread was meant for discussing the rules. But people keep posting ITT about how awful the rules supposedly are so I guess it is inevitable that folks who don't think the rules are so awful might also post ITT.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Mike I would also like 12 of the Malcontent dice. I will PM you as well in case this request gets lost.
Manchu wrote: Their main objective was not their only objective. There are a lot of steps to winning a war. Furthermore "capture the SDF-1" is the wrong scale of objective for RRT. I mean, I could see capturing the SDF-1 being a campaign goal but not the result of one game.
In any case, your entire line of argument mischaracterizes the counterposition. To jog your memory:
Manchu wrote: A lot of historicals don't care about concepts like balance because they are primarily interested in simulation. Something similar is the case here, except it is a matter of emulation. The game is supposed to emulate the show. It's not so much a matter of, say, favoring the UEDF or something. It's just that the rules are or at least seem to be primarily designed to allow players to recreate what they experience watching RoboTech.
Actually i'm a big historical player, and while History is used on units used, the outcome is not always the same since different strategies are used, but that's based on History, Robotech is not history, but Heroes, the Heroes never lose, they always win, so if we went by actual TV show history, with our own use of tactics and strategies as is used in Historical games, then guess what the UEDF is screwed, since the Zentraedi outnumbered the UEDF by a whole bunch.
So which is it you want to play? Historical or balanced?
Manchu wrote: Their main objective was not their only objective. There are a lot of steps to winning a war. Furthermore "capture the SDF-1" is the wrong scale of objective for RRT. I mean, I could see capturing the SDF-1 being a campaign goal but not the result of one game.
In any case, your entire line of argument mischaracterizes the counterposition. To jog your memory:
Manchu wrote: A lot of historicals don't care about concepts like balance because they are primarily interested in simulation. Something similar is the case here, except it is a matter of emulation. The game is supposed to emulate the show. It's not so much a matter of, say, favoring the UEDF or something. It's just that the rules are or at least seem to be primarily designed to allow players to recreate what they experience watching RoboTech.
I always wondered why the Zentraedi did not just send a massive wave of Battlepods all at once and simply overwhelm the crew. They would have had heavy losses but what are those when compared to the Imperative.
The problem is mate all their battles the Zentraedi lost, they failed to achieve their objectives which was their main objective which was to capture the SDF-1.
The objective of capturing the SDF-1 did not span all of Macross.
We see the Zentraedi accomplish many objectives, actually. When Breetai's Imperial-class fleet of one million ships plus the SDF-1 fought Dolza's Grand Fleet of 4.8 million ships in Earth orbit, the Zentraedi on Breetai's side won. Miriya successfully planted the spies aboard the SDF-1. The 13,600 Rineunadou Lojmeuean Monitor ships in Dolza's Grand Fleet succeeded in the reduction of Earth's populace and neutralizing all ground-based military forces. Khryon succeeded in capturing Minmei, succeeded in his terrorist strikes on New Macross City, and finally overwhelming and destroying the SDF-1 _despite_ every major RDF hero being present and attempting to stop him.
Manchu wrote: Their main objective was not their only objective. There are a lot of steps to winning a war. Furthermore "capture the SDF-1" is the wrong scale of objective for RRT. I mean, I could see capturing the SDF-1 being a campaign goal but not the result of one game.
In any case, your entire line of argument mischaracterizes the counterposition. To jog your memory:
Manchu wrote: A lot of historicals don't care about concepts like balance because they are primarily interested in simulation. Something similar is the case here, except it is a matter of emulation. The game is supposed to emulate the show. It's not so much a matter of, say, favoring the UEDF or something. It's just that the rules are or at least seem to be primarily designed to allow players to recreate what they experience watching RoboTech.
I always wondered why the Zentraedi did not just send a massive wave of Battlepods all at once and simply overwhelm the crew. They would have had heavy losses but what are those when compared to the Imperative.
For the same reason that only one or two Putty's from Power Rangers would attack at a time...
This strange idea that 'Balance' and 'Historicity' or 'Atmosphere' are at all related is something I simply do not understand. Balance and tournament-worthy rules have NO downsides whatsoever. They make games clearer, more fair for when you're playing for an even challenge between both players, and result in less ambiguity.
If you want to simulate some sort of scene from a show or movie where one side is more powerful, GIVE THEM MORE POINTS. That's it. But when you want a completely equal battle, balance is absolutely vital.
Likewise, Balance does not reduce your tactical options. In fact, it increases them by never leaving 'useless' or 'subpar' options, and giving everything a purpose. It only requires competence in design, which admittedly, Palladium lacks in spades.
The problem is mate all their battles the Zentraedi lost, they failed to achieve their objectives which was their main objective which was to capture the SDF-1.
The objective of capturing the SDF-1 did not span all of Macross.
We see the Zentraedi accomplish many objectives, actually. When Breetai's Imperial-class fleet of one million ships plus the SDF-1 fought Dolza's Grand Fleet of 4.8 million ships in Earth orbit, the Zentraedi on Breetai's side won. Miriya successfully planted the spies aboard the SDF-1. The 13,600 Rineunadou Lojmeuean Monitor ships in Dolza's Grand Fleet succeeded in the reduction of Earth's populace and neutralizing all ground-based military forces. Khryon succeeded in capturing Minmei, succeeded in his terrorist strikes on New Macross City, and finally overwhelming and destroying the SDF-1 _despite_ every major RDF hero being present and attempting to stop him.
And yet when they won they didn't win, when the Zentraedi fought with the SDF-1 they were on the Heroes side, the spies success was the failure of Breetai's fleet, any possible successes the Zentraedi had was to push the Heroes greater success.
also Judgedoug I see your buying BattleCry's at $50 a pop, me I'll go better and offer $51 a pop for BattleCry's, why just because I can.
And yet when they won they didn't win, when the Zentraedi fought with the SDF-1 they were on the Heroes side, the spies success was the failure of Breetai's fleet, any possible successes the Zentraedi had was to push the Heroes greater success.
I dunno, the legacy of the Zentraedi made it easy for Earth to be overrun by the Masters and then conquered by the Invid. Seems pretty lasting. Without the destruction of most of the population and industrial might of the Earth, the RED/ASC/REF might have been able to forge a human Empire - or to just take over the Masters' empire and contain the Invid.
But what is your argument again? That Shoji Kawamori wrote a storyline where the heroes win? Of course, it's also an anime where physics don't apply (especially regarding hero hairdos). But if I'm feeling like I need to be particularly grounded in reality, I'll watch Votoms.
also Judgedoug I see your buying BattleCry's at $50 a pop, me I'll go better and offer $51 a pop for BattleCry's, why just because I can.
And yet when they won they didn't win, when the Zentraedi fought with the SDF-1 they were on the Heroes side, the spies success was the failure of Breetai's fleet, any possible successes the Zentraedi had was to push the Heroes greater success.
I dunno, the legacy of the Zentraedi made it easy for Earth to be overrun by the Masters and then conquered by the Invid. Seems pretty lasting. Without the destruction of most of the population and industrial might of the Earth, the RED/ASC/REF might have been able to forge a human Empire - or to just take over the Masters' empire and contain the Invid.
But what is your argument again? That Shoji Kawamori wrote a storyline where the heroes win? Of course, it's also an anime where physics don't apply (especially regarding hero hairdos). But if I'm feeling like I need to be particularly grounded in reality, I'll watch Votoms.
also Judgedoug I see your buying BattleCry's at $50 a pop, me I'll go better and offer $51 a pop for BattleCry's, why just because I can.
I wish you success!
But that's the point, if we went by the show, and gave the zentraedi as many mechs and ships as possible while the UEDF is limited to what they had, the UEDF should never have won, they should have been obliterated, yet a "Balanced" game removes that factor and leaves a possibility of either side winning, going by what was in the show would make the game unbalanced no matter how you look at it, balanced is the only way to make the game enjoyable, you want to play based on the show, then make dioramas.
The Malcontent Dice we were looking at. Looks like we might go over 500 total. If we do, do you have any color preference other than that shown? I was thinking Green with Black markings.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The fist is in place of the #6 just in case.
But that's the point, if we went by the show, and gave the zentraedi as many mechs and ships as possible while the UEDF is limited to what they had, the UEDF should never have won, they should have been obliterated, yet a "Balanced" game removes that factor and leaves a possibility of either side winning, going by what was in the show would make the game unbalanced no matter how you look at it, balanced is the only way to make the game enjoyable, you want to play based on the show, then make dioramas.
The same argument can be made for nearly every wargame. Why play WW2 games? What's the point - the Allies won. Why play Vietnam wargames? The US overwhelmingly won the majority of battles but still lost the war. We already know what happened. But we play wargames because it's fun to roll dice and move toy soldiers around. It's fun to play "pick up battles" between (the totally absurd concept of) "balanced" forces, but it's also fun to recreate scenarios where the USA outnumbered the CSA by a hefty margin in the Second Battle of Bull Run (aka, not "balanced points" forces!) but were still defeated.
Totally unbalanced games - aka scenarios - are equally as fun as "points balanced" games. Many games specifically do not include "points" or any attempt to "balance" armies for this reason, as the concept of "balanced forces" has never existed in warfare throughout history.
But that's the point, if we went by the show, and gave the zentraedi as many mechs and ships as possible while the UEDF is limited to what they had, the UEDF should never have won, they should have been obliterated, yet a "Balanced" game removes that factor and leaves a possibility of either side winning, going by what was in the show would make the game unbalanced no matter how you look at it, balanced is the only way to make the game enjoyable, you want to play based on the show, then make dioramas.
The same argument can be made for nearly every wargame. Why play WW2 games? What's the point - the Allies won. Why play Vietnam wargames? The US overwhelmingly won the majority of battles but still lost the war. We already know what happened. But we play wargames because it's fun to roll dice and move toy soldiers around. It's fun to play "pick up battles" between (the totally absurd concept of) "balanced" forces, but it's also fun to recreate scenarios where the USA outnumbered the CSA by a hefty margin in the Second Battle of Bull Run (aka, not "balanced points" forces!) but were still defeated.
Totally unbalanced games - aka scenarios - are equally as fun as "points balanced" games. Many games specifically do not include "points" or any attempt to "balance" armies for this reason, as the concept of "balanced forces" has never existed in warfare throughout history.
The big difference between those historical scenarios and this one is numbers, the Zentraedi didn't outnumber the UEDF by 2 or 3 or even 4 times the amount, but by hundreds if not thousands times the amount of the UEDF, if we go by History, then the Zentraedi could rush the UEDF and SDF-1 game over.
The big difference between those historical scenarios and this one is numbers, the Zentraedi didn't outnumber the UEDF by 2 or 3 or even 4 times the amount, but by hundreds if not thousands times the amount of the UEDF, if we go by History, then the Zentraedi could rush the UEDF and SDF-1 game over.
But then when we do go by "history" the Zentraedi never attempted to destroy the SDF-1 until Dolza made the decision to destroy it (and Breetai and the 1 million "infected" ships), so the point is moot...
The big difference between those historical scenarios and this one is numbers, the Zentraedi didn't outnumber the UEDF by 2 or 3 or even 4 times the amount, but by hundreds if not thousands times the amount of the UEDF, if we go by History, then the Zentraedi could rush the UEDF and SDF-1 game over.
But then when we do go by "history" the Zentraedi never attempted to destroy the SDF-1 until Dolza made the decision to destroy it (and Breetai and the 1 million "infected" ships), so the point is moot...
No but they were trying to capture it, historically speaking I would have wiped out all UEDF forces and then dropped some MPA's and FPA's into the ship to remove any left over resistance, and walla, the Zentraedi have the ship.
The Zentraedi did not win the day because a war like race for some reason did not understand sound strategy, because of mighty heroes in the UEDF.
The big difference between those historical scenarios and this one is numbers, the Zentraedi didn't outnumber the UEDF by 2 or 3 or even 4 times the amount, but by hundreds if not thousands times the amount of the UEDF, if we go by History, then the Zentraedi could rush the UEDF and SDF-1 game over.
But then when we do go by "history" the Zentraedi never attempted to destroy the SDF-1 until Dolza made the decision to destroy it (and Breetai and the 1 million "infected" ships), so the point is moot...
No but they were trying to capture it, historically speaking I would have wiped out all UEDF forces and then dropped some MPA's and FPA's into the ship to remove any left over resistance, and walla, the Zentraedi have the ship.
The Zentraedi did not win the day because a war like race for some reason did not understand sound strategy, because of mighty heroes in the UEDF.
Plus it would have made for a short and boring cartoon if they did that and we'd never even be here discussing it.
Asterios wrote: Robotech is not history, but Heroes, the Heroes never lose, they always win, so if we went by actual TV show history
You are confusing reenacting a TV show with playing a game that emulates the theme of that TV show.
no when you consider if I emulate the theme of the show I as the Zentraedi would have thousands upon thousands of mecha and such, while the UEDF could only have like a few hundred mecha, which would make a game very unbalanced.
Asterios wrote: no when you consider if I emulate the theme of the show
We seem to be on entirely different wave lengths. What I am suggesting is that the game is supposed to be modeled after the feel of the show in terms of pace and action. I am not suggesting nor have I ever suggested anything remotely close to the outright reenactment of the show you insist upon.
Asterios wrote: no when you consider if I emulate the theme of the show
We seem to be on entirely different wave lengths. What I am suggesting is that the game is supposed to be modeled after the feel of the show in terms of pace and action. I am not suggesting nor have I ever suggested anything remotely close to the outright reenactment of the show you insist upon.
yeah my bad confused you with judgedoug, I'm all for the feel of the show as long as the game is balanced.
Asterios wrote: no when you consider if I emulate the theme of the show
We seem to be on entirely different wave lengths. What I am suggesting is that the game is supposed to be modeled after the feel of the show in terms of pace and action. I am not suggesting nor have I ever suggested anything remotely close to the outright reenactment of the show you insist upon.
I had the yellow and black seeing that appropriate for the Malcontents BUT Chessex told me the only have 500 of those available so at this rate we might need a second color.
Asterios wrote: no when you consider if I emulate the theme of the show
We seem to be on entirely different wave lengths. What I am suggesting is that the game is supposed to be modeled after the feel of the show in terms of pace and action. I am not suggesting nor have I ever suggested anything remotely close to the outright reenactment of the show you insist upon.
I had the yellow and black seeing that appropriate for the Malcontents BUT Chessex told me the only have 500 of those available so at this rate we might need a second color.
Asterios wrote: no when you consider if I emulate the theme of the show
We seem to be on entirely different wave lengths. What I am suggesting is that the game is supposed to be modeled after the feel of the show in terms of pace and action. I am not suggesting nor have I ever suggested anything remotely close to the outright reenactment of the show you insist upon.
I had the yellow and black seeing that appropriate for the Malcontents BUT Chessex told me the only have 500 of those available so at this rate we might need a second color.
These will keep the solid color from the other dice except the first option but allow for something similar to what you would expect from the game.
are these Malcontent dice you designed or already designed dice by Chessex ?
Here are pics of the sample they made for me. The problem is they only have around 500 in stock. If we go over 500 we will likely need to choose a second color for some of the people that order. I want the yellow ones. The "Fist" is a generic fist from the internet. Close enough but not the same one as from the Game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu wrote: Definitely NOT red/green gemini -- unless you want a "Malcontent Christmas."
I like yellow opaque with black pips the best. Second choice would be orange opaque w/black pips.
Actually green opaque with yellow pips would be pretty dang cool. I don't know if that's an option, however.
The dice a pretty plain but then again so are the ones in the RTT boxes. I figured I might as well have Malcontent ones to go with the white and purple ones.
Yeah, I knew but was just mentioning an alternative use (and likely the reason they're there). I don't have any problem with the dice and it is nice you're organizing it. I personally don't have any interest as I don't see malcontents as a real faction as they just steal from everyone else. If they had included some rules for frankenmecha or whatever they were called, that'd be a different story but in any case it is just an opinion.
So, I went to the palladium site today looking to see if they had an update for the week since the KS hasn't had one for the past three weeks and saw another closed thread and NMI up to his old antics. Anyone included in today's cull? If so, for how long? My money is on forar and kryptt (who I believe posts here as well under a different name). Oh, and any derogatory and condescending posts in favor of palladium will be ignored by NMI of course.
warboss wrote: So, I went to the palladium site today looking to see if they had an update for the week since the KS hasn't had one for the past three weeks and saw another closed thread and NMI up to his old antics. Anyone included in today's cull? If so, for how long? My money is on forar and kryptt (who I believe posts here as well under a different name). Oh, and any derogatory and condescending posts in favor of palladium will be ignored by NMI of course.
Yeah, I figured it'd be Glistsam and Kryptt. As I told Forar, he might cop it because of prior events, but still, it was pretty mild. Then again, it is NMI, and like PB itself, it's hard to underestimate just how poorly they'll operate. If nothing else, that guy is going to be completely detrimental to any form of official online community developing. Because you know he'll be in a position of power (banhammer moderator), if not actually in charge of the operation. And while I think unofficial places like Mike's FB and Jaymz's Forums have their place, if the official forum is hostile to it's fanbase, the online community suffers.
Forar said "oh snap" which likely falls under NMI's shifting scale category of "insulting palladium, no matter how subtle". Thoughtcrime is a thing on the megaversal forums.
In any case, I found this interesting bit as well from Wayne in another thread:
"I just ran across this thread, so let me post a quick couple of answers. I am working on a bigger update for the Kickstarter page that will go up tonight.
It isn't quite correct to say that the bigger the pledge, the later it will ship. What I said in an update was that we'd go roughly in order of BackerKit ID number, but that it would largely depend on what we had in our warehouse to ship, i.e. when we have everything in your Wave One rewards, we can ship your goodies. We didn't get some of everything in container #1, we only got certain items. The same goes for container #2, but it will get us much, much closer, and a bunch more people can get their rewards once #2 comes in, with a whole lot more a week later when #3 comes in. With container #3, we'll have all of most items, and 2,000+ of everything. After that, each container will just bring more to restock us as we ship things out.
We WILL NOT ship to retailers until all backer rewards go out. Please don't start any speculation about a vote on that. It's not going to happen. It's not a situation like Gen Con was, which obviously we couldn't push back by a week or a month (if only we could have). The retailers and distributors know that they have to wait until the backer rewards ship.
So, to answer the OP's question: Where's your stuff?
Some of it might be in our warehouse, waiting for the rest of it to arrive. Some of it might be in container #2, which was picked up from the port today, is being loaded into another container, and will depart LA by train tomorrow. Or in container #3, which is at sea right now. Or in container #4, which was delivered to the port in China yesterday, etc.
As for when we'll be finished shipping to backers, we're expecting to finish shipping Wave One rewards sometime in October. That's when we should have received enough containers full of product to fulfill all the backers' Wave One rewards. Once we have the goods, we should be able to ship them out pretty quickly by then.
I'm sorry it's taking so long. I really am. And I'm sorry I didn't post an update last week. It was 2:30am by the time I got our regular Weekly Update posted and left the office last Friday night, and I just couldn't do any more. I've been working on it sporadically this week, but other things have pulled me away, including today (which is why I'm not done with it yet). Don't be surprised if a bunch of this ends up in it."
Asterios wrote: Robotech is not history, but Heroes, the Heroes never lose, they always win, so if we went by actual TV show history
You are confusing reenacting a TV show with playing a game that emulates the theme of that TV show.
no when you consider if I emulate the theme of the show I as the Zentraedi would have thousands upon thousands of mecha and such, while the UEDF could only have like a few hundred mecha, which would make a game very unbalanced.
I think perhaps this is all a big misunderstanding.
This is a points based game so that people can have a roughly equal match. Within those confines, the rules appear to be written in a way to emulate some of the heroics of the show (Breetai kickin' booty in close combat, Spartans punching things left and right, hordes of Regults blasting stuff, etc). But by ignoring the confines of the points matching system, we can certainly play any number of scenarios that would pit Zentraedi against RDF at an overwhelming ratio; but for that to be a "historical scenario" it would, say, be fought around the SDF-1, with the Zentraedi specifically trying to limit or cause no collateral damage to the SDF-1. However, I'd still play a "neverending swarm of Zentraedi versus hopeless RDF defenders" scenario just to see how long the RDF forces could last. 300-style, or the great scenario in War of the Ring where the Balrog and goblins are wiping out the dwarves in Moria - the victory condition is based purely on how long the Dwarves can hold out (the victory a pyrrhic one, but fun to play regardless)
However, a points-match game of roughly equal forces does fairly emulate the post-Zentraedi Holocaust skirmishes, with a patrol of a Valkyrie squadron having to put down an uprising of grumpy Zentraedi, or Khyron and his cadre of elite N-Gers successfully raiding of New Detroit to get the Protoculture resizing chamber (where they stomped a bunch of destroids and regular VF-1A dudes). (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbPto08_OHc#t=792 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbPto08_OHc#t=914 Spanish dub)
warboss wrote: Forar said "oh snap" which likely falls under NMI's shifting scale category of "insulting palladium, no matter how subtle". Thoughtcrime is a thing on the megaversal forums.
Oh, absolutely. Ad it's not like Forar's engendered any brownie points. Hell, the way NMI operates, Forar probably would have been on the warning list even if he hadn't posted at all.
warboss wrote: In any case, I found this interesting bit as well from Wayne in another thread:
"I just ran across this thread, so let me post a quick couple of answers. I am working on a bigger update for the Kickstarter page that will go up tonight.
It isn't quite correct to say that the bigger the pledge, the later it will ship. What I said in an update was that we'd go roughly in order of BackerKit ID number, but that it would largely depend on what we had in our warehouse to ship, i.e. when we have everything in your Wave One rewards, we can ship your goodies. We didn't get some of everything in container #1, we only got certain items. The same goes for container #2, but it will get us much, much closer, and a bunch more people can get their rewards once #2 comes in, with a whole lot more a week later when #3 comes in. With container #3, we'll have all of most items, and 2,000+ of everything. After that, each container will just bring more to restock us as we ship things out.
We WILL NOT ship to retailers until all backer rewards go out. Please don't start any speculation about a vote on that. It's not going to happen. It's not a situation like Gen Con was, which obviously we couldn't push back by a week or a month (if only we could have). The retailers and distributors know that they have to wait until the backer rewards ship.
So, to answer the OP's question: Where's your stuff? Some of it might be in our warehouse, waiting for the rest of it to arrive. Some of it might be in container #2, which was picked up from the port today, is being loaded into another container, and will depart LA by train tomorrow. Or in container #3, which is at sea right now. Or in container #4, which was delivered to the port in China yesterday, etc.
As for when we'll be finished shipping to backers, we're expecting to finish shipping Wave One rewards sometime in October. That's when we should have received enough containers full of product to fulfill all the backers' Wave One rewards. Once we have the goods, we should be able to ship them out pretty quickly by then.
I'm sorry it's taking so long. I really am. And I'm sorry I didn't post an update last week. It was 2:30am by the time I got our regular Weekly Update posted and left the office last Friday night, and I just couldn't do any more. I've been working on it sporadically this week, but other things have pulled me away, including today (which is why I'm not done with it yet). Don't be surprised if a bunch of this ends up in it."
As Kendachi pointed out on the KS Comments, there's definitely some potential concern over what is and isn't in C#2 and C#3, and what will and won't be sent out.
But for me, the three points that got me rolling my eyes, were "a week later when C#3 comes in", because it's just endemic of PB's "everything is awesome!" attitude. Given the complete debacle of C#1 (Yeah, Customs, but guess what, should not have been a surprise, and should definitely not have been ignored) and C#2 (It'll be 7-10 days after C#1, except it's closer to 60, with no real explanation beyond "manufacturing delay"), any kind of statement should be heavily disclaimered.
The second is "We WILL NOT ship to retailers until all backer rewards go out.". You know what'd help with avoiding that kind of speculation from happening? Keeping us properly informed. When you have Kevin talking about retailers getting it in a couple of months (Sep 12 PBWU), when Kevin's own cut and paste in the same PBWU and online store both say "In stores September, 2014.", when shipping of containers has been an ongoing joke, and when there still seems to be no announced process of what's happening with EU shipping, yeah, I think you lose the benefit of the doubt on this.
EDIT, there seems to be a shift from "Backers get theirs first", to "Backers will go out first". It might not seem like much of a difference, but depending on location, and especially the EU thing, the change in wording could mean people in the EU buying it and receiving it, from retail stores, before Pledges get delivered.
The third is minor, but something I just find meh. There's no reason a KS Update has to be end of week. OK, you didn't have time to finish up one before end of last week, because you were so super busy etc. But given you missed the prior one (even with notification), doing one at the earliest opportunity this week, wasn't out of the question.
Sining wrote: Has the 2nd container come in? Was there an update on this?
"Some of it might be in container #2, which was picked up from the port today, is being loaded into another container, and will depart LA by train tomorrow."
It's on the PB Forums, abandoned hellscape that it is.
Wayne said there'd be a KS Update tonight. So, expect it tonight. Or tomorrow. Or next week. If it's late, he'll apologize and promise to do better.
The second is "We WILL NOT ship to retailers until all backer rewards go out.". You know what'd help with avoiding that kind of speculation from happening?
I'd have guessed "Not breaking your previous half dozen or more promises about almost the same thing..." but I guess your answer works too.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And in the same thread I linked above, now Wayne says that they need possibly 6 containers to fulfill backer rewards. Didn't the previous post on the subject mention 3 or 4 containers?
Originally it was 4-5, then Kevin changed it to 3-4, now it's maybe 5-6.
Honestly, I think it just changes based on whether they want to undersell how close we are (only a few more containers, guys!) or oversell it (it's going to be a long while guys, buckle up, keep the faith!).
Frankly, there should not be a 200% spread present (between 3 and 6) about this gak, but here we are.
Also, it's flattering, but as some random donkey cave, I don't think I've made it high enough even for petty little tyrants like NMI to really take note of me.
"It's not a situation like Gen Con was, which obviously we couldn't push back by a week or a month (if only we could have)".
Wow - the good folks at Palladium just totally do not get how bad a PR disaster that whole situation turned out for them, even though it didn't happen as the company intended.
"Some of it might be in container #2, which was picked up from the port today, is being loaded into another container, and will depart LA by train tomorrow."
Wait, what? Since when do ISO containers get put into other containers - because the whole point is not to have to break-bulk the cargo in the first place....
And if the container wasn't at capacity with PB products and thus had to be filled up with something else before being put on the ship, only to be unloaded at LA for further trans-shipping, brings to mind a lot more WTF?! questions.
Just from a casual read in this thread every now and then PB is clearly an organization whose update page should have a banner reading, "Find news here as we make it up."
It's like reading Yahoo articles and hoping for any substantive content.
"It's not a situation like Gen Con was, which obviously we couldn't push back by a week or a month (if only we could have)".
Wow - the good folks at Palladium just totally do not get how bad a PR disaster that whole situation turned out for them, even though it didn't happen as the company intended.
Apparently not. All of their own making, compounded twice after the initial error (the "silence = consent" vote, then the "just trying to provoke a reaction" non-apology). But like most things critical, they just dismiss it, and pretend it never happens. Or blame someone else. Evil gnomes, maybe? I'm pretty sure Jon Paulson has a gif.
"Some of it might be in container #2, which was picked up from the port today, is being loaded into another container, and will depart LA by train tomorrow."
Wait, what? Since when do ISO containers get put into other containers - because the whole point is not to have to break-bulk the cargo in the first place....
And if the container wasn't at capacity with PB products and thus had to be filled up with something else before being put on the ship, only to be unloaded at LA for further trans-shipping, brings to mind a lot more WTF?! questions.
Just from a casual read in this thread every now and then PB is clearly an organization whose update page should have a banner reading, "Find news here as we make it up."
It's like reading Yahoo articles and hoping for any substantive content.
That tends to be the trend. PB clarifies something in a way that opens up more questions than it answers. They're the gaming equivalent of "Lost". I had a similar "Umm... that's not how containers are supposed to work" moment, then, like most things, just chalked it up to Wayne not knowing, understanding or caring what was actually happening, or as you mentioned, either PB or the shipping company* screwed up, and they're trying to pass it off as "standard operating procedure". Or, there's a perfectly reasonable explanation, in this new era of transparency (Update 154), we'll not be privy to it.
* It's unlikely it's the shipping company's fault, because the figurative bus went past, and Palladium didn't throw them under it.
All this tells me is That B does not care for the backers, they did not rush product out for the backers, that should be evident by the fact they do not have all of the wave one items (and evidently won't have them till container #3), they rushed product over that they could sell at GC, the backers were an after thought since they already have our money and don't care for us.
Forar wrote: According to Wayne on their forums, they will be able to begin shipping Battle cry boxes with container 2.
Notice on the KS comments how more and more names nobody has ever seen before are checking in to register their displeasure?
Anyway, I think it's funny we still get the occasional delusional person who checks in to say "PB is screwing up so hard they should include free stuff for BC and above!" Yeah, sure, that's gonna happen.
Yeah, there are definitely some non-regulars showing up, and the update went out late. Today should be fun for that alone.
And agreed on the 'olive branch'. Y'know, as I've said before, I wouldn't turn down an extra sprue or four, but frankly I'd rather see them clean up their act and start treating this project and the backers with the professionalism something of this scale deserves.
Neither are likely to happen anytime soon, but hey, at least C2 will allow them to start shipping Battle Cry boxes. Which make up ~90% of their backers. And maybe they can start that in a week and a half. A full month after "shipping started".
It's one thing after another with these guys (PB).
Just... wow. I was kind of wondering why I hadn't received anything yet, and here was this update saying "We got the rest of the stuff to send to everyone else!" imp[implication being that if I had ordered just the game, with no extras (I forget what level that was...), I'd have received it by now. I spent more- the Battle Cry level and added a bunch more stuff.
The extra's I've ordered won't be available until Wave 1 ships... I wonder if this means I won't get anything until Wave 1 ships?
Just one thing after another, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if that's what actually happens.
Neither are likely to happen anytime soon, but hey, at least C2 will allow them to start shipping Battle Cry boxes. Which make up ~90% of their backers. And maybe they can start that in a week and a half. A full month after "shipping started".
*jazz hands*
Waynebert said they would be able to start shipping them with C2. That doesn't mean it's true - particularly since they continually seem to be mystified by what is actually in the containers. They certainly seem to know nothing until they open it up in Michigan.
The one group that is actually funnier than the "I WANTS FREE STUFF!" group are the "I just hope they use this is a learning experience to suck less". Sure, 30 years of history argue against it, but maybe this time it will be different!
When they do their next KS I can only imagine that they'll make a big deal about what they learned from the first one. Makes me think of this scene for some reason:
Forar wrote: According to Wayne on their forums, they will be able to begin shipping Battle cry boxes with container 2.
Notice on the KS comments how more and more names nobody has ever seen before are checking in to register their displeasure?
Anyway, I think it's funny we still get the occasional delusional person who checks in to say "PB is screwing up so hard they should include free stuff for BC and above!" Yeah, sure, that's gonna happen.
Well, I was one of THOSE delusional backers that thought that by voicing my displeasure finally, they would think to include something.
After having paid attention to the comments on the updates since the voting fiasco, as well as here, I have come to realize they only care in so much as they can start selling it to retailers. As stated before, Ebay will get my stuff...maybe I'll keep one of the battle cry's just for the limited edition stuff...
*edited for spelling (disillusioned to delusional)*
They are going to need a hardened dude or gal to patrol the comments if they do another campaign.
The $1 brigade will be there in force, and it will be a gakshow from start to finish.
I'd be shocked if it didn't fund (the true believers alone will make that happen), but another million plus? Even a slick ND campaign will probably struggle to pull that off, especially with the latter series (even 2 and 3 together might be a tough sell, depending on a bunch of factors).
It would depend on how much their initial goal for funding would be, Forar.
If the bar were set low enough, say $10,000, and they get funded by their loyalists to a mere $20,000, they would proclaim how wonderful a feat of doubling their original goal is.
Did any one get there stuff yet ? I have seen a lot of updates , but haven't heard from them . If this is the wrong thread to discuss this . could some one help with a link . Thanks everyone
MattRendar wrote: Did any one get there stuff yet ? I have seen a lot of updates , but haven't heard from them . If this is the wrong thread to discuss this . could some one help with a link . Thanks everyone
A couple random people have gotten them and mentioned it here or on the KS comments. An extremely tiny number. Why? Who knows, it's Palladium Boox.
Hmm..that was a typo but it fits, somehow. I'm gonna leave it.
~5% of the backers are just getting a Rick model. That's not until wave 2.
Another 5%'ish are just getting the core box. Many (most?) of these seem to have gone out.
~90% of the backers are waiting on a shipment type (Battle Cry box) that they cannot send out until Container 2 arrives, and then only some of them. Container 3, supposed to arrive in early October or so, should enhance that ability to deliver, but they've speculated that it might take container 4, 5 or even 6 to fully deliver.
vOv
So they have started shipping.*
*An extremely small amount of stuff out of what needs to go out.
Well, I'm finally out. Another backer has bought me out in the entirety, having previously bought half, so I'm no longer tied to this turkey (the official bird of Palladium, according to Facebook), and I'm freeeeeeeee!
I was content to run out the clock, and potentially lose on selling the second pledge on EBay, and having to deal with the likely excruciating wait for Wave 2, but I essentially got my money back (I ate the Paypal transaction fees), but it's no longer my problem.
I'll still be watching this calamity unfold, but as an amused bystander, not a resigned backer.
Morgan Vening wrote: Well, I'm finally out. Another backer has bought me out in the entirety, having previously bought half, so I'm no longer tied to this turkey (the official bird of Palladium, according to Facebook), and I'm freeeeeeeee!
I was content to run out the clock, and potentially lose on selling the second pledge on EBay, and having to deal with the likely excruciating wait for Wave 2, but I essentially got my money back (I ate the Paypal transaction fees), but it's no longer my problem.
I'll still be watching this calamity unfold, but as an amused bystander, not a resigned backer.
Congrats, and welcome to the club!
Its much better with popcorn. Screw reality TV, we have Palladium! So much better.
MattRendar wrote: Did any one get there stuff yet ? I have seen a lot of updates , but haven't heard from them . If this is the wrong thread to discuss this . could some one help with a link . Thanks everyone
It's the correct thread. If you look back a few pages, one of us dakkites got their stuff and posted some assembled mini pics. As forar said, they've basically only shipped the really small pledges like art prints and first contacts with add ons that were supposed to be for gencon. Apparently in prioritizing the containers, they placed a premium on what they planned on selling at gencon and didn't pack the first container with battlecry pledges despite those being in the majority and the basis of the other popular pledges. Backers are priority number 2 (gencon resellers being #1)... unless they feel like breaking another promise and squeezing in retailers ahead of us for the "good of the game" that they're sure we'll understand.. yadda, yadda.. xmas sales critical to the games success... they really do love and respect us prepaid customers, etc.
Morgan Vening wrote: Well, I'm finally out. Another backer has bought me out in the entirety, having previously bought half, so I'm no longer tied to this turkey (the official bird of Palladium, according to Facebook), and I'm freeeeeeeee!
I was content to run out the clock, and potentially lose on selling the second pledge on EBay, and having to deal with the likely excruciating wait for Wave 2, but I essentially got my money back (I ate the Paypal transaction fees), but it's no longer my problem.
I'll still be watching this calamity unfold, but as an amused bystander, not a resigned backer.
Congrats, and welcome to the club!
Its much better with popcorn. Screw reality TV, we have Palladium! So much better.
But without the emotionally attached component, are the LOL's really there? I mean, it's funny as hell when a friend trips and falls face down into a manure pile, but if a stranger does, and you laugh, aren't you just being mean?
Morgan Vening wrote: Well, I'm finally out. Another backer has bought me out in the entirety, having previously bought half, so I'm no longer tied to this turkey (the official bird of Palladium, according to Facebook), and I'm freeeeeeeee!
I was content to run out the clock, and potentially lose on selling the second pledge on EBay, and having to deal with the likely excruciating wait for Wave 2, but I essentially got my money back (I ate the Paypal transaction fees), but it's no longer my problem.
I'll still be watching this calamity unfold, but as an amused bystander, not a resigned backer.
Did you go through the whole pay palladium and have them send you a check procedure? Or are you just sending it yourself to the other person when you get it?
See, I wasn't really concerned with selling these things on Ebay until I saw the sprues. The thought of putting those things together hurts. I'm not a pro modeler, or painter, and I just want to be able to assemble them quickly, efficiently, and get to playing.
I might keep one of the battle cry pledges for the limited edition stuff and just recoup the cost of the rest.
warboss wrote: Did you go through the whole pay palladium and have them send you a check procedure? Or are you just sending it yourself to the other person when you get it?
We initially tried that. But that fell apart due to the asinine way it was put together (basically, after several weeks, with "they haven't arrived yet", he just cancelled the cheques). I then sold the auxillary pledge by Paypal, then gave control of both the backerkit and the Kickstarter account to the buyer. With my primary account, we weren't able to do that (as I have quite a few outstanding KS's), so we're hoping PB will properly transfer it, but if not, just change the shipping address. This second one has the purchaser taking a leap of faith I'm not a complete jackass (at least fiscally), and I truly appreciate that. So, none of the packages will ever get sent to me.
@Korias, That was the primary reason for me. The quality, the bungling, the delays, all I could have continued to put up with. But assembling those things with that parts counts, for that many miniatures? Not for me.
Battlecry's come with 12 from each faction
Showdowns come with 24 from each faction
so if you want a matching amount...
Working on shipping with them so that I don't have to have everyone pay me and then I send the dice out which would be a pain. That might not be necessary as he said if the order was large enough he still might work us a deal for all the added individual orders....that means they would give a slightly smaller discount and ship directly from their shop. I'd expect we'll get everything for around $.65 per die plus $5 shipping for 12 or 24 dice so that would be ~$8 for 12 or
~$20 for 24. But that's a guess. I'm still clarifying shipping and much will depend on the final order sizes. I told them I'd close things out Monday night and call them Tuesday.
Normal Price
Price depends on order size.
25-99 $0.75 each
100-199 $0.65 each
200+ $0.50 each or less.
They only have around 500 of the opaque Yellow dice so if we go over another option is to look at the Green opaque dice. If you think another base color for the die or symbol would work better let me know. They should have a Green Die sample pic for me later today. They cannot do black pips. They could have the 1-5 sides white and the symbol in black but I don't think anyone would be interested in that.
So far then....
Mike Arnold (24)
Doc ************* (24)
Allen ************ (24)
Chris ********* (36)
Thomas ********* (24)
Kiloden -- KS Comments (24)
Jaymz ******** (12)
David *********** (12)
Robert ******** (24)
Peter ******* (24)
Richard ******** (24)
IDIDOTH -- KS Comments (24)
Alex ******** (24)
Judgedoug -- DakkaDakka (12)
Nathan *********** (24)
Manchu -- DakkaDakka (12)
Hollow ******** (12)
Jared ******* (12)
Minstrel Cottini -- KS Comments (12)
Matt Trussell -- KS Comments (12)
Steven Carroll -- KS Comments (48)
Steve Teubner Jr -- KS Comments (24)
468 so far....
Jaymz is thinking of having Green D6 dice done with the numbers using Zentraedi writing. If interested let one of us know. Those would be cool but likely be around $3-5 each.
I'd be shocked if it didn't fund (the true believers alone will make that happen), but another million plus? Even a slick ND campaign will probably struggle to pull that off, especially with the latter series (even 2 and 3 together might be a tough sell, depending on a bunch of factors).
Honestly, if they keep the same scale (they better!) they could literally only need a handful of sprues for _everything_ for SC and NG.
For Southern Cross, one expansion book. One Blue Bioroid sprue that has like 4 blue Bioroids, one Specialist Bioroid sprue that has a Red, Green, Scout and Invid Fighter, and then a sprue with 4 sleds and a searchlight drone. The ASC could have one sprue with a Spartas all three modes, one sprue with AGACS all three modes, one sprue with LOGAN all three modes, and then if you really want, a bonus sprue with a Falcon II, Chimera, Sylphid maybe some of the AFV's and a couple random Destroids like the Salamander and Monocle that get like 3 seconds of screentime.
Same deal with New Generation. One expansion book. One sprue with a buncha Iigaa with the option to give them Invid gunpods, and a sprue with a bunch of Gurab with the option to make them Shock Gurab-Improved, one sprue with Malar Power Armor, Gamo Pincer Command, and Gosu Royal Command. One sprue with Alpha, one sprue with Beta, one sprue with a ton of Cyclones, VR-038, 041, 052.
warboss wrote: Palladium... where 6mm infantry will be so mouthwatering it can only come in 4-5 parts (including a split head!).
Don't worry, with the smaller figures it won't take long at all! In fact, they're already 98% done most of the preliminary work!
I swear, if they say anything resembling that in the next campaign (if there even is one), we know they're just flat out trolling.
... Which I might actually respect a bit more than their SOP. At least it'd indicate being self aware on it.
It'll be interesting to see if they do an update next week. If the container isn't supposed to arrive until Friday or the following Monday, there probably won't be much to say. If this were a tightly run ship, it'd be a perfect opportunity to talk about Wave Two. What's done, what's being worked on, how far along stuff is (approved 3D models? Sprue breakdown? 3D printed prototypes? Molds Milled? Test Sprues? Revisions?), etc.
I doubt we'll hear anything about W2 for a while to come, especially while NA/RoW/EU delivery are being worked on, but it's a fun dichotomy they're running these days between a (sensible) refusal to have a delivery target, versus nigh-indignation when people point out this could easily take 1-2 more years based on what we've seen.
The 'advocates' who seem to think that they'll somehow do twice the work in half the time, however, are simply adorable.
warboss wrote: Yeah, I knew but was just mentioning an alternative use (and likely the reason they're there). I don't have any problem with the dice and it is nice you're organizing it. I personally don't have any interest as I don't see malcontents as a real faction as they just steal from everyone else. If they had included some rules for frankenmecha or whatever they were called, that'd be a different story but in any case it is just an opinion.
So, I went to the palladium site today looking to see if they had an update for the week since the KS hasn't had one for the past three weeks and saw another closed thread and NMI up to his old antics. Anyone included in today's cull? If so, for how long? My money is on forar and kryptt (who I believe posts here as well under a different name). Oh, and any derogatory and condescending posts in favor of palladium will be ignored by NMI of course.
Yeah I'm still waiting on that ass hat to send me my warning. On FB he did send me an apology for some other BS.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
judgedoug wrote: Quick run through of the last few pages and still so many people who hate the game.
I am now addressing these disillusioned backers who are willing to sell for a price commensurate with what they think of the quality of the rules and miniatures.
I'm now offering $50 for a Battle Cry pledge. Please PM me.
When I get my SD I'll have an extra rules book I'll be happy to sell you for $50. Rulebook only no minis. Let me know I take paypal.
I understand that it is a little...heated at times in here.
But in the interest of keeping things civil, can we please at least stop with the absurd dollar amounts getting offered for purchasing pledges, along with the somewhat absurd counter offers to said absurd purchasing offers?
It might help keep things peaceful, and interesting, and perhaps in accordance with the rules of the site?
Is not absurd guy. Somone already posted a rulebook on eBay. When my pledge comes in I will have an extra rulebook. Hence why I'm offering it for sale and I do take paypal.
So if they can't ship the majority of stuff until container 3 shows up how were they supposed to ship all that stuff to backer prior to & during Gen Con?
Seems like they filled the majority of container one with product intended for Gen Con with no real intent to fulfill shipment to backers until later, they got caught with their pants down when stuff didn't arrive in time for the convention and it serves them right for being greedy bastards.
Now they are sitting on a bunch of stuff for a couple months while the product intended for the backers slowly makes it's way over.
Far as I know, that auction was taken down. It didn't show up as 'completed' when I went looking, so it doesn't seem to have been bought as a 'buy it now' auction, so perhaps the seller just changed their mind for whatever reason.
@Stanman: the only way it works for me is if the giant pile of core boxes in C1 was/is supposed to be matched with an equally massive pile of "Battle Cry Upgrade Packets" in C2. Their uncertainty on just how much of everything is in each box, however, makes me think that's either wishful thinking, or they're basically at the mercy of whatever the factory chose/was able to punch out and ship.
Battlecry's come with 12 from each faction
Showdowns come with 24 from each faction
so if you want a matching amount...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shipping for 500 of these dice within the US would be $15.00 via UPS
ground. This would make the total for the project $225.00 with
domestic shipping included.
Joseph *****
Chessex Manufacturing
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So likely only $7 or so for me to ship the dice. That's much more reasonable.
Normal Price
Price depends on order size.
25-99 $0.75 each
100-199 $0.65 each
200+ $0.50 each or less.
500-999 $0.42 each
If bought by yourself directly from Chessex.
12 Dice $21 with shipping.
24 Dice $35 with shipping
36 Dice $47 with shipping
48 Dice $59 with shipping
That's if I have them sent to me. Then about $10 for a bubble wrapping and some tape for a small flat rate priority box that should hold whatever you order easily. Shipping for that box is $6. So let's say $7 shipping per person. Plus whatever paypal will dip into the transaction. Maybe $1 per person. I'm not sure. One of you may know.
12 Dice $13 with shipping.
24 Dice $18 with shipping
36 Dice $23 with shipping
48 Dice $28 with shipping
They only have around 500 of the opaque Yellow dice so if we go well over another option is to look at the Green opaque dice. If you think another base color for the die or symbol would work better let me know. They should have a Green Die sample pic for me later today. They cannot do black pips. They could have the 1-5 sides white and the symbol in black but I don't think anyone would be interested in that.
So far then....
Mike Arnold (24)
Doc ***** (24)
Allen ***** (24)
Chris ***** (48)
Thomas ***** (24)
Kiloden -- KS Comments (24)
Jaymz L***** (12)
David ***** (12)
Robert ***** (24)
Peter T ***** (24)
Richard ***** (24)
IDIDOTH -- KS Comments (24)
Alex ***** (24)
Judgedoug -- DakkaDakka (12)
Nathan ***** (24)
Manchu -- DakkaDakka (12)
Hollow ***** (12)
Jared ***** (12)
Minstrel Cottini -- KS Comments (12)
Matt Trussell -- KS Comments (12)
Steven Carroll -- KS Comments (48)
Steve Teubner Jr -- KS Comments (24)
Joe ***** (24)
504 so far....
I need to double check shipping but that should be close. At most it might be $1 more if I need to get more bubble wrap to pack the dice up in the box or if the box is more if it goes over a certain weight. I think that as long as it fits in the box you ship it for that rate. It's been a few years since I've sold things on ebay.
Shipping might be better if you bought bubble padded envelopes ($1 ea) and shipped First Class Mail (US under 13oz) for roughly $3 and some change. Put the dice in a ziplock bag so they don't bounce around (say 25 cents per person) Paypal takes like 39 cents plus 3%, so round up to a dollar. roughly 6 bucks shipping per order. I volunteer to be the test case for a 12 dice order so you can calibrate the cost of materials and shipping properly.
Hey, Cypher, that idiot NMI just banned ME for your post under the username Kryptt. Wow..just wow...
A 4th warning has been issued on your account "Kryptt" @ the Forums of the Megaverse.
This warning is for trolling another forum entity/user. In this case, much like your last warning, the entity is: Palladium Books.
Palladium Books, though not an actual forum user, IS an entity attached to the forums and therefore protected by the same rules that you have repeatedly violated.
As this is a 4th active warning on your account AND it is being issued within a couple of weeks of coming off a one month ban, your temporary ban shall last for a period of 3 months.
A link to the most recent post that earned you a warning and a ban is listed below.
Jeff Ruiz MCP, MCTS, MCSE, A+ Palladium Books® Forums of The Megaverse® Administrator Palladium Books® Lazlo Society® Administrator Palladium Books® Chatroom Administrator Immatu Imperium da nai Palladium!
Edit: Now he added a warning to my post and is claiming that it is for me (despite the email referencing the username Kryptt). This is what got me banned for 3 months...
Since Krypt's old topic was locked and his replacement has disappeared, I'll post my thoughts again here. I'll be pledging the might sum of $1.00 so I can simply comment on the project for years to come in a open (if frequently contentious) environment. I consider this a "no" vote in the poll though as I don't expect any product/rewards for my pledge.
Warning: User warned for trolling another forum entity/user. In this case, Palladium Books. User has been temporarily banned as this is a 4th warning. This specific warning being issued while still having 3 warnings AND having come off a ban less then 2 weeks ago. - NMI
warboss wrote: Hey, Cypher, that idiot NMI just banned ME for your post under the username Kryptt. Wow..just wow...
Edit: Now he added a warning to my post and is claiming that it is for me (despite the email referencing the username Kryptt). This is what got me banned for 3 months...
Since Krypt's old topic was locked and his replacement has disappeared, I'll post my thoughts again here. I'll be pledging the might sum of $1.00 so I can simply comment on the project for years to come in a open (if frequently contentious) environment. I consider this a "no" vote in the poll though as I don't expect any product/rewards for my pledge.
Warning: User warned for trolling another forum entity/user. In this case, Palladium Books. User has been temporarily banned as this is a 4th warning. This specific warning being issued while still having 3 warnings AND having come off a ban less then 2 weeks ago. - NMI
Both you (bielmic, I assume?) and Cypher (Kryptt?) have exactly the same number of warnings (4), and both came off suspension at the same time? That seems coincidental. Or has NMI succumbed to Kevin Update Syndrome, and he's just copy/pasting without reading?
Cause KUS still has Robotech Tactics set for a September retail release. So it wouldn't surprise me if NMI was driving the same kind of "stupid/lazy" train.
Don't worry warboss he got me too.lol And I just got back from a one month ban.lol
Glistam wrote:
Question for Kryptt &/or Prysus... Which poll option will you consider all the forum members who don't vote to count as?
The answer is obvious. They'll get counted as an automatic "No because of how the first was handled". Since there not voting I'll have the results go how I think they would vote. After all I have the voters best interest in mind and it's for the good of the community. I learn from the best.
Warning: User warned for trolling another forum entity/user. In this case, Palladium Books. User has been temporarily banned as this is a 4th warning. This specific warning being issued while still having 3 warnings AND having come off a ban less then 2 weeks ago. - NMI
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thank you thought police.
Yeah, I'm definitely being punished for thought crime there. I'm arguing with him by email but if he is that delusion that simply voting NO in a poll is an insult then I don't expect him to budge. Wow, that really is a new low for the palladium boards. I used to (years ago) actually say the moderation was quite moderate over there and that the various posters who felt it was their "duty" to defend Maiden Kevin's honor were the problem that is absolutely no longer the case.
judgedoug wrote: Shipping might be better if you bought bubble padded envelopes ($1 ea) and shipped First Class Mail (US under 13oz) for roughly $3 and some change. Put the dice in a ziplock bag so they don't bounce around (say 25 cents per person) Paypal takes like 39 cents plus 3%, so round up to a dollar. roughly 6 bucks shipping per order. I volunteer to be the test case for a 12 dice order so you can calibrate the cost of materials and shipping properly.
I was going to use the small Flat rate boxes. Shipping is $6 and the box is free. All I need is something to pack the dice inside with so they don't move around. If you guys prefer I can swap to those envelopes and just pack the dice in them in a plastic baggie. That would take ~$2 off the shipping. I was not sure how much the cost would be to ship 48 dice. No idea of the weight. I'll have to see if I can find some way to weigh out the dice.
Pfft, rank amateurs. I got banned on the PB forums before it was the cool thing to do and I did it on only one warning. I got banned back in 2012 for discussing the prototype miniatures and game ideas, didn't even leave a critical comment toward Palladium but he simply didn't like the topic. Back then we didn't even need to type things, his though police powers were on overdrive and he could peer directly into our minds, nowdays he's really slipping in his old age. 4 warnings, that's weaksauce.
Edit: Looking at the locked thread It may have been Jeffar that banned me, either way it was completely stupid as it was for something incredibly tame.
Here's what I got booted over (posted as mech_dude):
Wolfe, I think you have me confused with Tom as that's his blog. Second I've never said I wouldn't do Southern Cross, so please stop trying to claim that I did. I enjoy the complete series and I"ve even made a handful of models for other era stuff so I have no clue where you are getting that gak from.
When I was working on my models I'd indicated my primary forcus was on the macross stuff as I can only do so much at a time. You have no idea how much work is involved in creating a miniatures line particuarly in digital form. There's no way as a single individual can do every mech from every arc all at once, so my logical choice was to concentrate on a single arc first. I chose Macross for a starting point as it's the beginning of the story as well as the most widely reconized part of the series, sorry if that isn't your cup of tea.
Try and get your facts straight. I have absolutely nothing to do with Tom's Robotech Battles Blog so quit trying to throw me under a bus.
Battlecry's come with 12 from each faction
Showdowns come with 24 from each faction
Reckless comes with 48 from each faction
so if you want a matching amount...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shipping for 500 of these dice within the US would be $15.00 via UPS
ground. This would make the total for the project $225.00 with
domestic shipping included.
Joseph *****
Chessex Manufacturing
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So likely only another $0.50 plus the $6 or so for me to ship the dice. That's much more reasonable.
Normal Price
Price depends on order size.
25-99 $0.75 each
100-199 $0.65 each
200+ $0.50 each or less.
500-999 $0.42 each
If bought by yourself directly from Chessex.
12 Dice $21 with shipping.
24 Dice $35 with shipping
36 Dice $47 with shipping
48 Dice $59 with shipping
That's if I have them sent to me. Then about $10 for a bubble wrapping, plastic baggies and some tape for a small flat rate priority box that should hold whatever you order easily. Shipping for that box is $6. So let's say $7 shipping per person. Plus whatever paypal will dip into the transaction. Lets say another $1 for a total of $8. We are working on the weight to maybe use plain bubble wrap envelopes and maybe lower shipping by $1-2.
12 Dice $13 with shipping.
24 Dice $18 with shipping
36 Dice $23 with shipping
48 Dice $28 with shipping
60 Dice $33 with shipping
They only have around 500 of the opaque Yellow dice so if we go well over another option is to look at the Green opaque dice. If you think another base color for the die or symbol would work better let me know. They should have a Green Die sample pic for me later today. They cannot do black pips. They could have the 1-5 sides white and the symbol in black but I don't think anyone would be interested in that.
So far then....
Mike Arnold (24)
Doc ***** (24)
Allen ***** (24)
Chris ***** (48)
Thomas ***** (24)
Kiloden -- KS Comments (24)
Jaymz ***** (12)
David ***** (12)
Robert ***** (24) 1/2 Yellow 1/2 Green
Peter ***** (48)
Richard ***** (24)
IDIDOTH -- KS Comments (24)
Alex ***** (24)
Judgedoug -- DakkaDakka (12)
Nathan ***** (24)
Manchu -- DakkaDakka (12)
Hollow ***** (12)
Jared ***** (12)
Minstrel -- KS Comments (12)
Matt Trussell -- KS Comments (12)
Steven Carroll -- KS Comments (48)
Steve Teubner Jr -- KS Comments (24)
Joe ***** (24)
James ***** (24) 1/2 Yellow 1/2 Green
Patrick Hutchison -- KS Comments (24)
Dan ***** (60)
636 so far....
Yellow 612 of 500
Green 24
Anybody Else Prefer Green Dice? We got too many Yellows right now.
Just toss a link to the thread in your sig, so people know where to go! Problem solved.
Also, people have been listing BC's for a year now. I know at least one backer has been buying them up, wouldn't surprise me if he was one of those that has been selling them off.
Presumably doubling or tripling his money gives him little incentive to stop.
Though at this rate he's going to qualify as a minor distribution hub once his boxes start arriving.
Forar wrote: Just toss a link to the thread in your sig, so people know where to go! Problem solved.
Also, people have been listing BC's for a year now. I know at least one backer has been buying them up, wouldn't surprise me if he was one of those that has been selling them off.
Presumably doubling or tripling his money gives him little incentive to stop.
Though at this rate he's going to qualify as a minor distribution hub once his boxes start arriving.
Well I know one seller there has listed BC several times, not sure if its the same one or not and the buyer backed out, but I do know he will have one heck of a PP dispute when it does eventually ship since hes listing more items in the BC then actually come in the BC, and the other seller copied the first sellers listing so he'll have problems too.
So I've extended this to Wednesday since I just got pics of the Green Dice. I'd post a link to the FB page but not everyone could go see it since it is a Closed Group. Also this should only be for a couple days more than we can resume the PB bashing. So far this is what I have. I have also not looked more into pricing Rick since my laptop died this weekend and I wound up having to buy a new one after trying to get it to run for half a day.
Battlecry's come with 12 from each faction
Showdowns come with 24 from each faction
so if you want a matching amount...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shipping for 500 of these dice within the US would be $15.00 via UPS
ground. This would make the total for the project $225.00 with
domestic shipping included.
Joseph *****
Chessex Manufacturing
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So likely only another $0.50 plus the $6 or so for me to ship the dice. That's much more reasonable.
Normal Price
Price depends on order size.
25-99 $0.75 each
100-199 $0.65 each
200+ $0.50 each or less.
500-999 $0.42 each
If bought by yourself directly from Chessex.
12 Dice $21 with shipping.
24 Dice $35 with shipping
36 Dice $47 with shipping
48 Dice $59 with shipping
That's if I have them sent to me. Then about $10 for a bubble wrapping, plastic baggies and some tape for a small flat rate priority box that should hold whatever you order easily. Shipping for that box is $6. So let's say $7 shipping per person. Plus whatever paypal will dip into the transaction. Lets say another $1 for a total of $8. We are working on the weight to maybe use plain bubble wrap envelopes and maybe lower shipping by $1-2.
12 Dice $13 with shipping.
24 Dice $18 with shipping
36 Dice $23 with shipping
48 Dice $28 with shipping
They only have around 500 of the opaque Yellow dice so if we go well over another option is to look at the Green opaque dice. If you think another base color for the die or symbol would work better let me know. They should have a Green Die sample pic for me later today. They cannot do black pips. They could have the 1-5 sides white and the symbol in black but I don't think anyone would be interested in that.
So far then....
Mike Arnold (24)
Doc Brookshire (24)
Chris Cole (48)
Thomas Roache (24)
Kiloden -- KS Comments (24)
Jaymz LaFlamme (12)
David Johnston (12)
Robert Wertz (24) 1/2 Yellow 1/2 Green
Peter T Pidrak (48)
Richard Klepper (24)
IDIDOTH -- KS Comments (24)
Alex Clarke (24)
Judgedoug -- DakkaDakka (12)
Nathan Huddleston (24)
Manchu -- DakkaDakka (12)
Hollow Echo (12)
Jared Herring (12) 1/2 Yellow 1/2 Green
Minstrel Cottini -- KS Comments (12)
Matt Trussell -- KS Comments (12 Green)
Steven Carroll -- KS Comments (48)
Steve Teubner Jr -- KS Comments (24)
Joe Boster (24)
James Saeli (24) 1/2 Yellow 1/2 Green
Patrick Hutchison -- KS Comments (24)
Dan Wideman (60)
William Stillwell -- KS Comments (48 Green?)
CRT -- KS Comments (12 Green)
Dalsiandon -- Dakka Dakka (24 Green)
696 so far....
Yellow 570 of 500
Green 126
Anybody Else Prefer Green Dice? We might have too many Yellows right now.
I just want all my stuff and be done with PB. If they do another ks and combine the last two eras I'm still up in the air about spending a few bucks for some alphas. Sigh
Man, it's over 4 pages long. You could make this a lot easier by simply having a single post somewhere (say, the swap shop) and just linking to it with a few of the pertinent details present. Do we really need the full buyer list every time? Or the cost data?
"Hi, looking for malcontent dice to go with the Zentraedi and RDF/UEDF dice? Click here! (linky!)
Edit: now, granted, this one itself is less than idea in that you can't edit it, but you can easily copy/paste into the first reply and I can just kill the opening. Or you could start one yourself.
Point being, there are better ways to convey the information than by spamming multiple forums with 2-4+ page walls of text that don't apply to 99% of the people who might come across it.
Now now. Is there anything more appropriate to this project than the person trying to run it flopping around pathetically and them someone else having to manage the communication for them for free?
Merijeek wrote: Now now. Is there anything more appropriate to this project than the person trying to run it flopping around pathetically and them someone else having to manage the communication for them for free?
Actually, I found the homage to Kevin's Weekly Updates to be spot on. 95% cut and paste, up to the reader to discern any differences, but with so much repeated information from post to post, the eyes glaze over, and you forget that you weren't always at war with Eurasia.... I mean that a release date has quietly been shifted.
Or not. Kevin's forgotten to update RRT, it still says September for retail.
Okay guys, 2 more days is fine while the order is still about to be placed, but after that the dice order probably needs it's own thread elsewhere (feel free to link to it in here, of course!). Thanks
I'm not sure about the dice Mike, could you write up an update on how everyone who seen them said they were the best dice ever? Especially if that was the exact words they used.
Without that, it just doesn't feel like Robotech RPGRRTTM Etc...
(Subjectively) spamming this thread, the comments and elsewhere with piles of superfluous information isn't exactly engendering good will.
My point wasn't that he shouldn't do it, but that there were better ways to do it.
Go click on the little image of the dice I whipped up. BAM, takes you right to the thread! If Mike puts that in his forum signatures then every post he makes (aside from the KS comments) becomes an advertisement.
It's about 'fighting smarter, not harder', as it were. Having one page where the information is updated means just being able to post "hey guys, new info on the dice, check it out *here*" rather than copy/pasting 4 pages of text and expecting people to peruse it for what changes might exist.
I was only annoyed with Merijerk, not you Forar. You had a valid point on the pics, like I said I did not think about shrinking the images and I would not have done it even if I had. The list on the other hand needs to be reposted as to not accidently miss anyone. I missed 2 this weekend when my laptop went kaput and had to buy a new one.
I think the dice are a good side project and would provide scary contrast to the topic at hand. It is already ahead of the game with no descriptions of "mouth watering".
I will probably kick myself for not being overly concerned with the third faction.
Well, the PB reminder to ensure the shipping addresses are up to date is sounding almost responsible. So cargo containers should pretty much go according to schedule, wonder how much staff to pack-rate they will be at.
At least we can be distracted by something shiny so hopefully they will "surprise" us with Wave 2. Still expecting them to figure out how to push that shipping cost onto someone else. Makes me not as upset when going to Showdown they increased shipping cost.
Funny seeing the pictures of the parts in China: will the destroids be in all those individual boxes or will we get a bunch'o sprues dumped in a box? It is looking like the former.
In the meantime, being jerks to Mike will help pass the time... his guilt by association is more than enough reason...
As an aside, the less than stellar Command Points, I've been using glass beads and thought of using something like these, but not in 18lb bags!, to use as command counters. You could place decals on the flat undersides of the beads and if they are placed on a light colored surface they could really pop and look good.
If you have a dark surface where you can't see the symbol then these might be a waste of $ but if you are placing your Command Points on a light colored surface these could look pretty cool.
It'll be interesting to see how quickly they can start getting things out, and to whom, once Container 2 arrives.
If it's just Battle Cry boxes, or if they do ship to some Showdowns as well. Mostly US/North America, or let backerkit number hold more importance than I (and some others) had assumed they would. I still can't believe that they might push out 8 BC's worth of stuff to a single backer (despite my representing 3, as both of the guys I backed with each pitched in a little cash to be counted in the 'X backers stretch goals'), but it'd be a pleasant surprise to get this in October rather than November or December.
Hell, by the end of the year would be nice at this point, but despite their reassurances, but talk is cheap and it'll take some action to get me back on board for now.
If they ever come out with 2nd edition, plus, of the models, where they have condensed the pieces on the sprues so as to be more on par with 40k miniatures then I will probably look back into purchasing some. The models themselves look decent to me.
They look a bit better than I feared, but as a novice, I still see seams and flash trimming necessary per figure and... ugh, I'm going to be at this for weeks to build the stuff I have coming, possibly months, depending on how much free time I can commit to it.
Even if I just keep roughly half of the ~210 or so figures coming to me in wave one. Hopefully Toronto/the GTA has a fairly bustling interest in some boxes, 'cause I'm going to have a fair number to put on the local market.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Update #158
Sep 23 2014
Fire at the Port of LA – Container #2 Is OK
As some of you may have heard, there was a big fire at the Port of LA yesterday evening. Fortunately, we’ve been told that shipping containers were not affected. However, it has caused some problems at the port, and they may affect our delivery schedule in the following ways:
Container #2, which was supposed to be picked up from the terminal last Thursday, is still there at the terminal. We got word yesterday that due to a shortage of trailer chassis for containers to be placed on, the transport service wasn’t able to pick up the container because it wasn’t put “on wheels” until Monday. They were trying to get an appointment time to pick it up on Monday, but were unable to get one before the fire. Now the terminal is closed due to the fire, workers were evacuated, etc. We are monitoring the situation and will let you know when we have a new ETA for delivery of container #2 to our warehouse. It seems likely that it will be delayed by at least a few days, but we are hoping for the end of next week.
Container #3 is scheduled to reach the port next Monday, but it is headed for the same terminal. Hopefully, things will be back to normal by then and the congestion caused by the terminal’s closure will be cleared, but it is quite possible that it will be delayed as well. We hope to know more in the next few days.
Containers #4 and up should not be affected by this terminal closure, as they will be handled differently, shipped by rail directly to Detroit (meaning they’ll be transferred directly from the ship to a train, and clear Customs in Chicago or Detroit).
Needless to say, this is frustrating for all of us. When we know more, I’ll come on here and let you all know. When the next container finally arrives, we’ll start shipping as quickly as we can to as many of you as possible.
Address corrections have been flooding in since the Update I posted last night, and that’s awesome. Please keep them coming as soon as you can, so we can be ready to ship when the next container does come in. Thank you.
As an ex-backing bystander, I have to say I think it's cool that PB finally seem to have realized that keeping backers informed of issues in a timely manner, is preferable to silence. Sure, there are people mocking them, but most of that is based on prior performance, and more than a little schadenfreude. I give them props for informing their backers, though. Even if it is clouded a little by the recognition that C2 was delayed anyway (was supposed to go last Friday) and they didn't mention it in the prior Update. But it's definitely an improvement.
Any bets on whether the "we will ship to distributors/retailers for the make or break holiday shopping season.. I'm sure you'll understand" update will happen before, during, or after the Black Friday holiday shopping season official start? That should be right around the time container 3 gets to them.
Well according to Wayne that's not going to happen because all pledges will go out by oct. So yeah I do expect another vote. Talk about the Crises of Murphy's Law.
I'd vote yes if it was accompanied by a post from Kevin admitting that thanks to all their mistakes made the only way they can turn it around is to go retail first. And by admission, I mean I would want mouth watering details on how 98% of all problems are because of him.
Joyboozer wrote: I'd vote yes if it was accompanied by a post from Kevin admitting that thanks to all their mistakes made the only way they can turn it around is to go retail first. And by admission, I mean I would want mouth watering details on how 98% of all problems are because of him.
But, but... how can that happen? Kevin NEVER makes mistakes!
He actually did admit to making mistakes that lead to delays. A few months before the Northern Gun book came out TWO YEARS late, he said he was sorry but the delays were his fault... BECAUSE HE LOVES HIS FANS AND WANTED TO GIVE THEM THE BEST BOOK EVAR! He said he learned his lesson and won't take the extra time to double the page count (but neglected to focus on the fact that the 200% page count was accompanied by a 2000% delay over the initial crowdfunded delivery date) and won't do it again. It was textbook manipulation along the lines of "he only hits you because he loves you!" and was classic Palladium cowpie.
Because it was never picked up like it was supposed to be. The date was supposedly moved to THIS monday which is the date of the fire. I'm sorry but the timing of all this and the story coming from Palladium will always sound fishy but in any case they get another heaping dose of karma that they have earned.
So I have good news for you all. Before starting all this I asked PB if they had plans on making some Malcontent dice. Since they had no immediate plans I started up this thread. I thought it would be good if we got good dice for cheap and also a bit bad since they would not have the correct symbol on them.
So I started this thinking a few of us could pool some $ and save on cost to buy some gaming dice. I would not buy them at $2 each once you include shipping and all. Too expensive for me. As we started this I never really thought so many of you would want the dice. I was figuring 5 or 6, maybe more. The list has gotten large. Large enough that shipping this all over and managing this by myself would be kinda of a pain with me with little kids and in school and all.
The good news is that PB has noticed that we have a large group desiring these dice. They have a good idea of what we want too. So PB has asked me to hold off so that they can check on a few things and get their ducks lined up so that they can see about a small run of "Official" Malcontent dice for us all to buy. These dice will likely be a bit more but they will have the official symbol on then which is what I really wanted in the first place. They just ask us to give them a bit of time to work the details out since the idea of Malcontent dice was not really on the forefront of their minds.
I'm even going to send them the name and email of the guy I was working with at Chessex to move it along. Hopefully they can even work something out to get the pips and all in black on the green dice.
I'm taking this as a "What if ...." project anyway. That's down to not believeing PB/Kev were anywhere near a production run in a short timeframe from the KS funding.
Still, I was not expecting a 267 day delay (and counting).
As I am a modeller, not a gamer, the complexity of the models does not put me off that much. I only have a small number of models from this KS, and may need to buy a single box of VF models and a single box of battlepods just to have some of them to display. (I only really need 2 of each model, 1 to paint 'realistically' as a working jet, the other stylistically in the cell shaded style.
But I still don't understand why the resin stuff does not seem to have been worked on up to now. That will require different skill sets, different manufacturers, etc. and could have been worked on at the same time.
I can understand if they were keeping the SDF-1 and resin character models back in my case as I have VF-1D and YF-4 packs as well (And I presume these will be big enough runs to require plastic and therefore are legitimate "wave 2" items) but I fear that PB will end up doing something silly like forgetting about them and producing the rest of the plastics as "Wave 2" and the resin stuff will get relegated to "Wave 3"
I can understand if they were keeping the SDF-1 and resin character models back in my case as I have VF-1D and YF-4 packs as well (And I presume these will be big enough runs to require plastic and therefore are legitimate "wave 2" items) but I fear that PB will end up doing something silly like forgetting about them and producing the rest of the plastics as "Wave 2" and the resin stuff will get relegated to "Wave 3"
Much more likely they'll get cancelled and PB will generously offer people credit. Perhaps a vote will be involved.
Conrad Turner wrote: I can understand if they were keeping the SDF-1 and resin character models back in my case as I have VF-1D and YF-4 packs as well (And I presume these will be big enough runs to require plastic and therefore are legitimate "wave 2" items) but I fear that PB will end up doing something silly like forgetting about them and producing the rest of the plastics as "Wave 2" and the resin stuff will get relegated to "Wave 3"
Much more likely they'll get cancelled and PB will generously offer people credit. Perhaps a vote will be involved.
For goodness sakes man! They may be listening, do not give them ideas!
fruitlewps wrote: Thanks Mike, you just delayed shipping AGAIN by asking PB about dice. We'll never get this stuff...
Never said I asked them....
Not going to infer anything from that.
While others have commented on the delays/incompetency change, by handing it to Palladium, I'd be more concerned about the potential quality/cost issues that are likely to take place. Firstly, PB are likely to commission with the company they had doing the initial RDF/Zen dice, and while I can't attest for their quality or lack thereof (having only seen some not-great photos), it's doubtful they have the reputation Chessex has in the field.
The second is cost. In your prior posts, you appear to have hit the numbers needed to drop the dice to $0.50. But with PB having set their price on the original dice at $12 for 12, I'd not be surprised to see them continue with that structure, essentially doubling the price, shipping not withstanding.
I'm glad you're happy that they'll have the proper symbols (and it's no small thing), but I'm not sure it makes up for the downsides the dice now have.
fruitlewps wrote: Thanks Mike, you just delayed shipping AGAIN by asking PB about dice. We'll never get this stuff...
Never said I asked them....
Ahem...
Mike1975 wrote: So I have good news for you all. Before starting all this I asked PB if they had plans on making some Malcontent dice. Since they had no immediate plans I started up this thread.
fruitlewps wrote: Thanks Mike, you just delayed shipping AGAIN by asking PB about dice. We'll never get this stuff...
Never said I asked them....
Ahem...
Mike1975 wrote: So I have good news for you all. Before starting all this I asked PB if they had plans on making some Malcontent dice. Since they had no immediate plans I started up this thread.
Selective reading?
So I have good news for you all. Before starting all this I asked PB if they had plans on making some Malcontent dice. Since they had no immediate plans I started up this thread. I thought it would be good if we got good dice for cheap and also a bit bad since they would not have the correct symbol on them.
So I started this thinking a few of us could pool some $ and save on cost to buy some gaming dice. I would not buy them at $2 each once you include shipping and all. Too expensive for me. As we started this I never really thought so many of you would want the dice. I was figuring 5 or 6, maybe more. The list has gotten large. Large enough that shipping this all over and managing this by myself would be kinda of a pain with me with little kids and in school and all.
The good news is that PB has noticed that we have a large group desiring these dice. They have a good idea of what we want too. So PB has asked me to hold off so that they can check on a few things and get their ducks lined up so that they can see about a small run of "Official" Malcontent dice for us all to buy.These dice will likely be a bit more but they will have the official symbol on then which is what I really wanted in the first place. They just ask us to give them a bit of time to work the details out since the idea of Malcontent dice was not really on the forefront of their minds.
I'm even going to send them the name and email of the guy I was working with at Chessex to move it along. Hopefully they can even work something out to get the pips and all in black on the green dice.
I VERY much doubt Fruitlewps was referring to the FIRST statement. The context shows he was referring to the second. Ahem....
Mike, I think you may need to be a little clearer then. Maybe I'm misinterpreting your posts, but with you slapping at Fruitlewps for saying you "asked", it seems like you're saying PB took over unilaterally. Maybe that's not what you're intending, but your "correction" seems to paste PB in a worse light than anything anyone else has posted on the subject. Especially given I took Fruitlewps initial post as at least half humor.
Mike, I really can't see how anyone in their right mind can see palladium taking over your project, heck *any* project as being good news. You more or less just sentenced your project to a slow and torturous death.
I forsee subpar at best quality that is way overpriced, months (if not years) late and lies about the project around any corner.
If you had done it I could see a reasonable result in the near future. Palladium on the other hand will blow it as everything else in this goddam project.
Morgan Vening wrote: Mike, I think you may need to be a little clearer then. Maybe I'm misinterpreting your posts, but with you slapping at Fruitlewps for saying you "asked", it seems like you're saying PB took over unilaterally. Maybe that's not what you're intending, but your "correction" seems to paste PB in a worse light than anything anyone else has posted on the subject. Especially given I took Fruitlewps initial post as at least half humor.
Maybe I misinterpreted him, if that's the case I'm sorry. I never asked PB to take over as he implied. They asked me to hold off because they decided to work on official ones. I thought that was exactly what I wrote.
So you asked PB if they were doing MC dice they said they have no plans.
You organize your own dice and get heaps of responses.
They then tell you to hold off as they are now contemplating doing MC dice themselves.
So you did ask them about MC dice and now they are trying to steal your thunder by running their own dice now that they know there is quite a bit of interest.
Hmm, somebody has a good idea going and it generates a lot of interest and response with gamers. Palladium see's dollar signs and is like hey man take a hike we're on it from here. Can't say I ever saw that happen before... nope certainly not with Palladium.
Koltoroc wrote: Mike, I really can't see how anyone in their right mind can see palladium taking over your project, heck *any* project as being good news. You more or less just sentenced your project to a slow and torturous death.
Forar wrote: I'd been pondering buying some Chessex dice from Mike. Exasperation and all, I was intrigued.
From Palladium?
No fething way.
Kind of the whole point, innit?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
paulson games wrote: Hmm, somebody has a good idea going and it generates a lot of interest and response with gamers. Palladium see's dollar signs and is like hey man take a hike we're on it from here. Can't say I ever saw that happen before... nope certainly not with Palladium.
This is totally different - a true fan-friend will happily hand over the keys and consider it a good thing.
fruitlewps wrote: Thanks Mike, you just delayed shipping AGAIN by asking PB about dice. We'll never get this stuff...
Never said I asked them....
Ahem...
Mike1975 wrote: So I have good news for you all. Before starting all this I asked PB if they had plans on making some Malcontent dice. Since they had no immediate plans I started up this thread.
Selective reading?
So I have good news for you all. Before starting all this I asked PB if they had plans on making some Malcontent dice. Since they had no immediate plans I started up this thread. I thought it would be good if we got good dice for cheap and also a bit bad since they would not have the correct symbol on them.
So I started this thinking a few of us could pool some $ and save on cost to buy some gaming dice. I would not buy them at $2 each once you include shipping and all. Too expensive for me. As we started this I never really thought so many of you would want the dice. I was figuring 5 or 6, maybe more. The list has gotten large. Large enough that shipping this all over and managing this by myself would be kinda of a pain with me with little kids and in school and all.
The good news is that PB has noticed that we have a large group desiring these dice. They have a good idea of what we want too. So PB has asked me to hold off so that they can check on a few things and get their ducks lined up so that they can see about a small run of "Official" Malcontent dice for us all to buy.These dice will likely be a bit more but they will have the official symbol on then which is what I really wanted in the first place. They just ask us to give them a bit of time to work the details out since the idea of Malcontent dice was not really on the forefront of their minds.
I'm even going to send them the name and email of the guy I was working with at Chessex to move it along. Hopefully they can even work something out to get the pips and all in black on the green dice.
I VERY much doubt Fruitlewps was referring to the FIRST statement. The context shows he was referring to the second. Ahem....
paulson games wrote: Hmm, somebody has a good idea going and it generates a lot of interest and response with gamers. Palladium see's dollar signs and is like hey man take a hike we're on it from here. Can't say I ever saw that happen before... nope certainly not with Palladium.
Well Mike probably had a smile on his face when he did it, but on a side note, just because Mike stepped down and bowed to PB does not mean someone else cannot pick up where he left off and PB will take forever to pick up on.
Conrad Turner wrote: I can understand if they were keeping the SDF-1 and resin character models back in my case as I have VF-1D and YF-4 packs as well (And I presume these will be big enough runs to require plastic and therefore are legitimate "wave 2" items) but I fear that PB will end up doing something silly like forgetting about them and producing the rest of the plastics as "Wave 2" and the resin stuff will get relegated to "Wave 3"
Much more likely they'll get cancelled and PB will generously offer people credit. Perhaps a vote will be involved.
For goodness sakes man! They may be listening, do not give them ideas!
Actually give them ideas since if they cancel the SDF-1 then they would have to offer refunds to anyone who ordered the SDF-1 and wants a refund.
fruitlewps wrote: Thanks Mike, you just delayed shipping AGAIN by asking PB about dice. We'll never get this stuff...
Never said I asked them....
Ahem...
Mike1975 wrote: So I have good news for you all. Before starting all this I asked PB if they had plans on making some Malcontent dice. Since they had no immediate plans I started up this thread.
Selective reading?
So I have good news for you all. Before starting all this I asked PB if they had plans on making some Malcontent dice. Since they had no immediate plans I started up this thread. I thought it would be good if we got good dice for cheap and also a bit bad since they would not have the correct symbol on them.
So I started this thinking a few of us could pool some $ and save on cost to buy some gaming dice. I would not buy them at $2 each once you include shipping and all. Too expensive for me. As we started this I never really thought so many of you would want the dice. I was figuring 5 or 6, maybe more. The list has gotten large. Large enough that shipping this all over and managing this by myself would be kinda of a pain with me with little kids and in school and all.
The good news is that PB has noticed that we have a large group desiring these dice. They have a good idea of what we want too. So PB has asked me to hold off so that they can check on a few things and get their ducks lined up so that they can see about a small run of "Official" Malcontent dice for us all to buy.These dice will likely be a bit more but they will have the official symbol on then which is what I really wanted in the first place. They just ask us to give them a bit of time to work the details out since the idea of Malcontent dice was not really on the forefront of their minds.
I'm even going to send them the name and email of the guy I was working with at Chessex to move it along. Hopefully they can even work something out to get the pips and all in black on the green dice.
I VERY much doubt Fruitlewps was referring to the FIRST statement. The context shows he was referring to the second. Ahem....
Also, what's this? 3 updates in one week? Someone make sure they haven't been replaced by particularly go-getting imposters!
Update #159 Sep 25 2014
Back on Track
Hey, all. Just a quick update today.
Container #2 has finally been picked up from the terminal, and is on its way to our warehouse. We decided to have it brought by truck instead of train. It will cost us more, but this way we should get it next Tuesday, right on schedule.
Container #3 is due to arrive in port next Monday. Hopefully, with the terminal open again and containers moving in and out, there won’t be much slowdown left over from the fire, and it can move right through and on its way to us.
Container #4 is at sea and on schedule to arrive in LA the week after next.
Container #5 left the warehouse in China yesterday, and its ship will set sail early next week.
So, things are moving along, and we’re back on track to ship out a bunch of rewards next week. That means if you've moved recently, time is running out to get us your address info.
Like I said in an earlier update, please check BackerKit ( http://robotech-rpg-tacticstm.backerkit.com ) and make sure your address is correct. If it is, you’re all set; no further action is required. If anything doesn't look right, please send us your address in a Kickstarter message or at kickstarter@palladiumbooks.com.
We've gotten a TON of address changes since that update posted on Monday. That’s great! Jeff’s been entering them all as they come in. Anyone who has moved and hasn't updated us yet needs to get that done this weekend, before we do the data export early next week. Thanks.
That’s it for this week. Have a good weekend, everyone. We’ll be working.
Doesn't matter... they work 8 days a week 26 hours a day... don't you read the updates? That's how they put out that massive number of books in 2013; you can put out two books in 12 months on a 40 hour work week! Those facebook farm fields don't plant themselves and the geese don't post their own facebook updates!
In all seriousness though, this is the type of communication that I wish they had engaged in for the past year. It is to the point and relatively free of flowery language that just ends up being BS anyways.
warboss wrote: In all seriousness though, this is the type of communication that I wish they had engaged in for the past year. It is to the point and relatively free of flowery language that just ends up being BS anyways.
Agreed. While not perfect, they're a significant step up, and if this style of communications had of been started 15 months ago, wouldn't have attracted as much ire and hostility as it has. When backers get the feeling they're being richarded around, they tend to not take it so well. When there are delays, and they're explained properly, they tend to not be so unhappy.
I think the issue is, those campaigns that hide that kind of info, are trying to please everybody. There's always a small number that'll be unhappy at any bad news, and they should just accept that. Most rational people will forgive a fair bit when treated like adults. Granted, this campaign has been plagued by many (MANY) self-inflicted wounds, but again, I doubt it'd be as hostile if it wasn't after so much "Everything is AWESOME!".
EDIT: And Kevin REALLY needs to check his cut and pastes if he's gonna persist on doing 30 pages each PBWU. Robotech Tactics, "Retail Release Date: In stores September, 2014.". Yeah, Kevin, I don't think you're gonna make it. It's just a really really bad joke at this point. Also on the webstore.
, from the time we had that early release of the rules update meant supported that the 
I did not mean to insult just pointing it out. 
The idea was there, information was shared, the title of the game said it, the early release rules reinforced it. I just pointed out that the information was there. No misguidance or foul intentions existed in the creation of the rules.
BUT the Lord of the Rings games uses magic like in the books and has the same bad guys as in the books, the monsters have the same names and traits as those in the books. 
