What armies have you been facing? I am curious to hear more details about how you have been fairing. And we need some pics of such a show of force!
I think the issues for lists with that many Leman Russes is pretty obvious, and I thought, crippling. Seems difficult to kit them out to deal with the Imperial Soup knight lists, -1 to hit Eldar Soup lists, and at the same time, being kitted out to deal with Ork hordes.
I've ran some tank heavy lists and the problems were the fact if they get taken down just 1 bracket they are basically bricks. If anything tags them in CC, they are done for at least the next turn. And I had some difficulty getting out of my deployment zone to actually score OBJs.
Mainly armies that can get into your lines on t1 so probably orks and daemons I would think. Would be interesting to see how you go with knight lists that run triple gallants.
What are you running?
10 Russ in two battalions with 60 infantry for screen and 13cp
or
12 Russ in two spearheads and 5cp
Armoured leman list would most probably fail against anything top competitive.
How would it deal with multiple knight list, or plaguebearer bloodletter spam with princes, or eldars minus to hit lists with shining spears or reapers, or harlequins ynnari, or tyranids horde with GS, or many others which are seen casually in the tourney?
Typically fielding 2 Punisher tank Commanders which deal with hordes quite nicely. (These are in a Battalion as Vostryoan.) (And with Old Grudges often puts not inconsiderable damage on knights.) Pask and another tank commander in an Executioner with 6 LR Executioners (or LR Conquerors) in a spearhead. Everything has Plasma Cannon Sponsons and HB in the body.
Gives me approx. 16d6 + 20d3 Str 8 -3 D2 shoots. That has been more then enough to deal with multiple knights. The 80 punisher shots with 30 HB shots tend to deal with hordes well enough.
Nobody really plays Eldar around here (And the few that do focus on Wraithguard). So maybe because I haven't run against the -1 to hits much (Main guy that has that is a Nid plays who runs a Zoanthrope Deathstar)
Honestly Typically by end of turn 2 I have most of my opponents conceding because they are out of units that can effectively hurt my tanks and I still have 7-8 left in good condition.
But again haven't taken a pure tank list to a tournament. (I have taken a Tank/Knight list of 5-6 LRs and 1 Gallant w/ 4 Warglaives that has won 2 local Tournaments and is currently undefeated.)
U02dah4 wrote: Except it isnt becausr you have to assume that they get the +1 to go first and if they do 3-5 russes are dieing so how.many shots are left.
Essentially its go first I can win go second I lose or they win 64% of the time
I have rarely lost more the 1 Russ in a round of shooting. And My whole list is 10-11 drops. Most of the time I am going first and if I am not then with prepared positions each Russ is a T8 2+ with 12 wounds.
Been mulling over restructuring my spec op's themed dkok/am list (based around dkok in centaurs and valkyries) and trim it down into a smaller scions list now that they're slightly cheaper in order to be using less grey areas in rules and keep the army simpler.
The idea is to be taking two battalions that come to 1350pt in total, that act as inquisitorial storm troopers, the have 3 650pt detachments of the militant branches of the ordos, so sisters, deathwatch and grey knights that I can dip in and out of. The reason for this pts division is that it allows the 3 ordos detachments to also be fielded together with minimum changes in 2000pts with minimal changes if I ever feel like fielding all power armour for a change.
Using the new vigilus detachments I've come up with the following:
HQs:
Tempestor prime, command rod, power fist (grav-chute commando and laurels of command) 53pt
2x tempestor prime, command rod and power mauls 49pt each
Lord commissar, blade of of conquest (cp for bonus relic) 35pt
Troops:
2x 5 man scions, 2 plasma gun, plasma pistol and powerfist on sergeant 80 pt each
4x 5 man scions, 2 plasma gun, plasma pistol and maul on seageant 76pt each
Elites:
4 man bullgryn with slab shield and mauls 168pt
Idea is very simple load up in the planes and alpha strike hard targets turn 1, cc weapons on them as they will be likely wiped out next turn so may as well charge them in as well to do maximum hurt and slightly increase odd of survival if they can get stuck in with something squishy to reduce the amount of fire power the enemy can point at them. Bullgryns are there for variety of models and play style while hopefully keeping a presence on the table until reinforcements can make it to the enemies deployment, will probably use grenadiers on bullgryn just so I can model the with shields and guns for the aesthetics and say it represents the grenades.
My biggest worries are having so many points wrapped up in valkyries as the enemy can just ignore them once they drop their payload ("boots on the ground" not counting as units on the table really hurts) so I don't know if it's worth dropping the bullgryn and a valk for a couple of 5 man squads in taurox for less alpha but more mid board presence.
Any advice on changes that could be made while keeping the points total and theme would be great.
For reference the gist of the ordos detachments are:
Sisters of battle out rider, 2 repreasors with melta dominions, immolator with canoness and storm bolter dominions
Grey Knights out rider, Shooty GMGK with 3 interceptor squads
Deathwatch battalion, librarian and watch master with 3 storm shield and storm bolter squads (feel like this detachment needs more punch)
U02dah4 wrote: Except it isnt becausr you have to assume that they get the +1 to go first and if they do 3-5 russes are dieing so how.many shots are left.
Essentially its go first I can win go second I lose or they win 64% of the time
I have rarely lost more the 1 Russ in a round of shooting. And My whole list is 10-11 drops. Most of the time I am going first and if I am not then with prepared positions each Russ is a T8 2+ with 12 wounds.
Then you are either not playing vs competative lists or only playing lists that dont try to kill you. It is common to lose a knight in a turn and you are a lot squishier 38%ish of the time you are not first even with the +1 and there are certainly list similar or less in drops
U02dah4 wrote: Except it isnt becausr you have to assume that they get the +1 to go first and if they do 3-5 russes are dieing so how.many shots are left.
Essentially its go first I can win go second I lose or they win 64% of the time
I have rarely lost more the 1 Russ in a round of shooting. And My whole list is 10-11 drops. Most of the time I am going first and if I am not then with prepared positions each Russ is a T8 2+ with 12 wounds.
Then you are either not playing vs competative lists or only playing lists that dont try to kill you. It is common to lose a knight in a turn and you are a lot squishier 38%ish of the time you are not first even with the +1 and there are certainly list similar or less in drops
Maybe I'm not however you are being annoying and singularly unhelpful. You are stating random things with nothing to back them up. Just Randomly stating that I am going to be losing roughly half my army in the opening salvo. I don't find that realistic. If you would like to state some lists that are capable of that I would love to know I fully admit to not knowing if my gak would work at Top Tier but without explaining anything you are being useless. And yes I know its common to lose a knight in a turn I disagree however that my tanks are much squisher then a Knight turn 1. With a 2+ save even ap -3 weapons will have the same save as a Knight with only -4 weapons exceeding and my tanks having the advantage with AP -1 and -2. Yes Knights have their warlord trait and Rotate Ion shields which gives them the edge if they are running 1 or 2 knights, but not if they are fielding more then that I think the overall edge goes to the Tank Battalion.
Typically fielding 2 Punisher tank Commanders which deal with hordes quite nicely. (These are in a Battalion as Vostryoan.) (And with Old Grudges often puts not inconsiderable damage on knights.) Pask and another tank commander in an Executioner with 6 LR Executioners (or LR Conquerors) in a spearhead. Everything has Plasma Cannon Sponsons and HB in the body.
Gives me approx. 16d6 + 20d3 Str 8 -3 D2 shoots. That has been more then enough to deal with multiple knights. The 80 punisher shots with 30 HB shots tend to deal with hordes well enough.
Nobody really plays Eldar around here (And the few that do focus on Wraithguard). So maybe because I haven't run against the -1 to hits much (Main guy that has that is a Nid plays who runs a Zoanthrope Deathstar)
Honestly Typically by end of turn 2 I have most of my opponents conceding because they are out of units that can effectively hurt my tanks and I still have 7-8 left in good condition.
But again haven't taken a pure tank list to a tournament. (I have taken a Tank/Knight list of 5-6 LRs and 1 Gallant w/ 4 Warglaives that has won 2 local Tournaments and is currently undefeated.)
You dont have to kill tanks, just tie them up. Are you screening with guardsmen? That nid player needs to play kraken with some hormies and Genestealers and he can easily get 2 units on a T1 charge. I can wrap up a lot of tanks with 30 hormies and 20 GS. After thats its just a matter of time as you fallback and cant shoot, or have no where to fall back to, then by T2 or T3 the rest of my army is closing in.
Dont get me wrong, I think you have a solid answer to Knights, but how do you deal with T1 charge armies like Bloodletters or beserkers, Ork da Jump, and Kraken nids. If you don't go first its all over.
I have found locally that knights are in almost every imperium list. its a requirement to have a chance to place competitively.
U02dah4 wrote: Except it isnt becausr you have to assume that they get the +1 to go first and if they do 3-5 russes are dieing so how.many shots are left.
Essentially its go first I can win go second I lose or they win 64% of the time
I have rarely lost more the 1 Russ in a round of shooting. And My whole list is 10-11 drops. Most of the time I am going first and if I am not then with prepared positions each Russ is a T8 2+ with 12 wounds.
Then you are either not playing vs competative lists or only playing lists that dont try to kill you. It is common to lose a knight in a turn and you are a lot squishier 38%ish of the time you are not first even with the +1 and there are certainly list similar or less in drops
Maybe I'm not however you are being annoying and singularly unhelpful. You are stating random things with nothing to back them up. Just Randomly stating that I am going to be losing roughly half my army in the opening salvo. I don't find that realistic. If you would like to state some lists that are capable of that I would love to know I fully admit to not knowing if my gak would work at Top Tier but without explaining anything you are being useless. And yes I know its common to lose a knight in a turn I disagree however that my tanks are much squisher then a Knight turn 1. With a 2+ save even ap -3 weapons will have the same save as a Knight with only -4 weapons exceeding and my tanks having the advantage with AP -1 and -2. Yes Knights have their warlord trait and Rotate Ion shields which gives them the edge if they are running 1 or 2 knights, but not if they are fielding more then that I think the overall edge goes to the Tank Battalion.
Yes it is annoying and unhelpfull when real life gets in the way of a good idea but thats the way it works sometimes i took out 3 land raiders and two flyers in one round of shooting tonight with my admech list all tougher targets than a russ. I back it up with years of tourney experience. I play 4 armies and took knights to 4 tournies last year 33-50% of games i lost a knight turn 1 to shooting and thats tarranis with defensive buffs. Now you can ignore what I say because you don't like the message in which case best of luck but even with list saturation you will struggle
I have rarely lost more the 1 Russ in a round of shooting. And My whole list is 10-11 drops. Most of the time I am going first and if I am not then with prepared positions each Russ is a T8 2+ with 12 wounds.
If your meta means that you only lose max 1 Russ then a tank list is definitely going to be more viable. In other metas, losing at least 2 and having a 3rd or more degraded (likely to be all tank commanders and pask) then it becomes less viable.
If your meta and luck means you go first most of the time, then this will skew your result even more.
Statistically speaking, tank heavy armies aren't meta defining. If you think you are so good and lucky then take your tank list to a major GT and show the world what they are missing.
U02dah4 wrote: Except it isnt becausr you have to assume that they get the +1 to go first and if they do 3-5 russes are dieing so how.many shots are left.
Essentially its go first I can win go second I lose or they win 64% of the time
I have rarely lost more the 1 Russ in a round of shooting. And My whole list is 10-11 drops. Most of the time I am going first and if I am not then with prepared positions each Russ is a T8 2+ with 12 wounds.
Then you are either not playing vs competative lists or only playing lists that dont try to kill you. It is common to lose a knight in a turn and you are a lot squishier 38%ish of the time you are not first even with the +1 and there are certainly list similar or less in drops
Maybe I'm not however you are being annoying and singularly unhelpful. You are stating random things with nothing to back them up. Just Randomly stating that I am going to be losing roughly half my army in the opening salvo. I don't find that realistic. If you would like to state some lists that are capable of that I would love to know I fully admit to not knowing if my gak would work at Top Tier but without explaining anything you are being useless. And yes I know its common to lose a knight in a turn I disagree however that my tanks are much squisher then a Knight turn 1. With a 2+ save even ap -3 weapons will have the same save as a Knight with only -4 weapons exceeding and my tanks having the advantage with AP -1 and -2. Yes Knights have their warlord trait and Rotate Ion shields which gives them the edge if they are running 1 or 2 knights, but not if they are fielding more then that I think the overall edge goes to the Tank Battalion.
Yes it is annoying and unhelpfull when real life gets in the way of a good idea but thats the way it works sometimes i took out 3 land raiders and two flyers in one round of shooting tonight with my admech list all tougher targets than a russ. I back it up with years of tourney experience. I play 4 armies and took knights to 4 tournies last year 33-50% of games i lost a knight turn 1 to shooting and thats tarranis with defensive buffs. Now you can ignore what I say because you don't like the message in which case best of luck but even with list saturation you will struggle
Thats great that you can do that. I'm not disagreeing with it. What I am asking is HOW you are doing it. Like I said I don't see that kind of firepower in my locals and recognize that. But all you are stating is that it doesn't work and not WHY it doesn't work so I can adjust for what is going to be able to pop Russes so easily. What is showing up at tournaments consistently that needs to be addressed. One guy mentions a couple of units that can do turn 1 charges and try and tie up the Russes and what they use to do it. I have a few screens of guard Infantry for that and in those case know not to have my punishers too far frontline so If any Russes get locked I can fall back with them for a round and have the punishers clear out the assault units. You say your admech can clear out 5 russes or better in a single round of shooting. Great. HOW? I want to be 100% clear. I believe you. I need to know how you do it.
Do you find all knight lists challenging? Say a list Castellan, Crusader and 2 Gallants. You'll have two gallants on your line turn 1 and likely to lose a couple of Russ from the Castellan and Crusader. Also less likely to go first.
Eldar lists with Shining Spears, Harlequins, flyers, Wave serpent spam, Alaitoc would be annoying.
Orks might give you some problems, units jumping on turn 1, deep striking on turn 2, and shooting lootas at you for days.
Triple Shadowsword is rare but I reckon you might struggle
Tau Riptides and Broadsides with drone spam.
The issue with 10+ Leman Russ ,on a field with decent terrain, is focus firing on threats.
Assuming your in cover these give an expectancy of a dead russ from
4 Ryzaprones
9 breachers on eye of xi russ backed up by 1 ryzapron
2 neutron lasers + kastellan robots
That leaves over ballistarii and possibly TPD
Also note T2 (the infiltrators will 1 shot a russ)
now i got lucky tonight in that one vehicle exploded which added enough W to boost the total to 5 dead vehicles but given an exp of 3 dead russ + thats a 50% occurance
Okay this is my assumptions and math. Unless I'm missing something Your Ryzaprones(Assuming this is the Plasma Culverin Destroyers) are going to do an average of 9.6 damage. (Assuming you are using the Ryza Strat on them and have Reroll 1s from Canticles or TPD. Now if you toss in the 5th Ryza that will give you 12 wounds on average)
The breachers deal 9.5 (Assuming Rerolls 1s to hit and Wound and +1 BS from Elimination volley though that wont effect all of them)
Neutron Lasers deal 6.9 damage on average (Rerolling ones anything else they get that I'm missing?)
Heavy Phosphors Kastelans (I assume they are on the Protector Protocal? So 36 shots rerolling 1s with +1 bs) 4.6 damage
Ironstrider do an average of 2.1
So assuming you go first your opening volley should deal roughly 35 points of damage close enough to your estimation.
Now my return volley.
The Remaining TC Punisher should wipe the Plasma Destroyers.
4 LR Executioners should Pop both Duncrawlers on Average (23.8 wounds)
Last 2 LRs Should Com within a Hairs breath of Killing the Kastelleans. (Average 11.9 damage)
So what you will have left is the Breachers (Who no longer have elimination volley or Eye) the Iron Striders and the Infiltrators. Breachers should Deal 8.2 damage Iron Striders 2.8
And the DP infiltrators assuming Wrath of Mars. 2.1 normal wounds and 6 mortal wounds.
Leaving me with Roughly 5 and 1/2 Russes left.
Now the issue might come down to with you getting opening volley and have a bigger footprint you might be able to grab all the objectives and I not be able to take enough back as I have to deal with your russ capable killing units before time is called. But I think as far is Firepower goes by end of turn 2 I don't think you will have enough left to threaten my remaining Russes.
Now I am NOT an admech player anymore (Played it in 7th not in 8th) so I probably missed a couple tricks that might tip the scale. Please let me know. Because I would like to try this or a simlar list at an ITC event and want to make sure I have my bases covered. I thank you for your help in this matter.
As for the Knights not really On average rolls even if I have lost 2 LRs (Assuming Pask and the Executioner TC) I can drop 2 knights in the return volley typically (With old Grudge if they Oathbreaker missle my warlord and take him out then in becomes a bit more dicey as I average only about 42 wounds at that point. But this also doesn't take into account the Cadian Stragatem). Assuming I lose 2 more then next turn Ill only be able to take out 1 the following turn but if thats the case then I'm likely only dealing with either a single gallant or Crusader left with me having 4 lemans left which should give me the edge and they should be running Dry on CP at that point.
Thank you again for the assistance in figuring out weakness in this list.
Triple Shadowsword I think wouldn't bee to much different from the Knights. Have to hope I can kill 2 shadow swords in the first round even if I'm down 3 LRs. 1 should be easy but if im down to 5 LRs by round 2 vs that I'm in trouble.
I have screens for 1st turn assault armies and as long as I don't let the Punishers get tied up they should mow through massed infantry.
Yeah the Aliatoc Eldar could be an issue and why I keep switching between LR:Ex and LR:Conq in my lists.
I again haven't played tau much since they got their codex but haven't had terribly much issue with them. What should I be on the lookout for against their Top Tier lists?
Khadorstompy wrote: Hmm I have been testing Tread-head Mono guard fielding 10+ Lemans Russes. I had been using Vostroyan Conquerors but with the Price Drop on Executioners I now find them the superior option as Cadian.
Honestly it might just be that I play mostly only the people at my club and on TTS but I have had great success with the Armor heavy list but hear so many seem to think the LR isn't worth it. So I'm curious as to what I'm not running into that seems to to be busting the tanks chops so much.
Can you post the exact makeup of your list? Is it literally just tanks? It's an interesting idea for sure, but I'm not sure how it would look.
Comes in at 1991 points. It's certainly an interesting army, mathhammering it out the 4 commanders + 4 regular russes (assuming old grudges on the commanders) would be able to put out 28 wounds on a 3++ Castellan, so on average you could one shot one if you fire everything at it.
I'd caution against using that many executioners in a tournament list... Eldar Flyers with -2 to hit (-3 with a stratagem) make it so you cannot possibly overcharge them. Regular ol' battle cannons can fire at them without having to worry about exploding on 2's and 3's.
Also the Relic Battle Cannon with a flat 3 damage is a fantastic weapon, and well worth paying 1 CP for (gotta take the Vigilus detachment)
Horst wrote: I'd caution against using that many executioners in a tournament list... Eldar Flyers with -2 to hit (-3 with a stratagem) make it so you cannot possibly overcharge them. Regular ol' battle cannons can fire at them without having to worry about exploding on 2's and 3's.
Also the Relic Battle Cannon with a flat 3 damage is a fantastic weapon, and well worth paying 1 CP for (gotta take the Vigilus detachment)
Yeah That is something to worry about. And why I flip between Executioners and Conquerors. I haven't run into much eldar who I know make the best use of that stuff so I need some practice against it. Maybe do a mix and swap 2 LR:Ex w/ Plasma for 2 LR:C w/ Heavy Flamers?
I'd say always take at least 1 or 2 Conquerors if you have them simply to grab OBJs or to apply pressure. Rerolling all dice within 24" is pretty legitimate.
Another game another turn 2 concession. Though this game was a bit odd. Played a guy who set up far more terrain then I was used to. I am told this was an ITC map and it had zero turn 1 lanes of fire for my tanks. He was however pretty focused on horde killing with 3 Ravenwing Talon Fighters. 3 Grey Knight strike Squads in reserve with Draigo and Voldus. A loyal 32 with a Basalisk.
He got the Winning Roll and went first. The Talons zoomed into my Deployment and toasted 2 squads of Infantry and Pounded My hammer relic commander with the Basalisk but only took him down halfway. (He had terrible luck with the Rift cannons that did nothing to my TC) Voldus (Who started on the field gated and got the charge off on another TC and killed it. (Used the strat that let him fight twice.)
My shooting phase turn 1 was pretty sub-par Killed 1 Talon and put one to 1 hp and the other to 4 hp. Pask had to Fall back as Voldus Consolidated into him. Killed 1 infantry squad and did minor damage to the 2 others. Kill voldus with the Relic TC.
Turn 2 he droped in the Strike squads and Driago. All missed their charges and the only thing he killed with the wounded TC with the Relic. He conceded middle of my shooting turn 2 after he lost Driago and a Strike squad with most of my tanks left to shoot.
Edit: I did learn alot about ITC lines of fire this game which was much more restrictive then I had been expecting.
So I'm curious what role does the commissar fill in lists anymore? I see them pop up in some very competitive lists but I have no idea why. What am I missing?
necron99 wrote: So I'm curious what role does the commissar fill in lists anymore? I see them pop up in some very competitive lists but I have no idea why. What am I missing?
They hold power weapons, can be cheap HQs, Summary Execution is optional now with them right? That’s the only reason I can think of at the moment.
Commisar is cheap and adds a tiny bit of value to a hoard of guard infantry hes certainly not a terrible choice but hes not an auto include either I would probably include him with 120ish guard and definitely wouldnt with 30. Untill you get to that hoard sized level though he has competition from officers/psykers/priests and the first two are goodaccompanting small numbrrs of units
Another ITC game vs a Castellean Guard list with 3 Basillisks 2 Helrevins and 3 Vultures.
This one was a loss as I could not buy a save roll on any of my guys. Didn't take the Hammer this time and that was a mistake as since we were playing long field and he got first turn I couldn't threaten his basillisks much. Also due to my not being able to make any save despite the Helvriens only having a -1 AP and needing 5s to wounds (He had some hot dice) was mulching my tanks. Turn one lost 2 Conquers and Pask. My turn 1 Mulched in Castellean and took a Vulture to 1 hp. His turn 2 kill 2 more tanks (2 Executioners) but my super gakky rolls on turn 2 had me kill NOTHING just doing some minor damage to a basilisk and 1 Vulture.
Overall I was pleased with my ability to turn 1 destroy a castelean even with losing 3 tanks but Have come to realise the Executioners just can't deal with things very well. I feel they have under-preformed the games I have tried them in and that the Conquerors are a superior choice.
Might try working in a Basilisk.
Also as everyone is spraying my infantry squads to death turn one might swap them out for MT:Sions.
Another test:
This time I greatly reduced my Number of Tanks to just 2 Punisher TC and 2 Conquerors. Another Turn 1 Knight kill (Just a warden this time). Tried 2 Basilisks but despite packing them in a corner behind a ruin still lost 1 turn 1. However I Took a Custodes Spearhead with a Dawneagle Jetbike and 3 Grav-tanks. Damn those things did work. Blowout win this game loved the Grav-tanks. Wasn't impressed by the Basilisk but might give it another shot.
3rd game which royally pissed me off
Dude tried to cheat and teleport Magnus with Dark matter Crystal. Also manged to cast magnus -1 to hit and +1 save when I wasn't looking. Literally unloaded my entire army into Magnus. Was still alive with 1 w at end of round (Of course I didn't go first again like 6th game in row.) Was absolutely absurd.
Khadorstompy wrote: Another ITC game vs a Castellean Guard list with 3 Basillisks 2 Helrevins and 3 Vultures.
Overall I was pleased with my ability to turn 1 destroy a castelean even with losing 3 tanks but Have come to realise the Executioners just can't deal with things very well. I feel they have under-preformed the games I have tried them in and that the Conquerors are a superior choice.
Might try working in a Basilisk.
Also as everyone is spraying my infantry squads to death turn one might swap them out for MT:Sions.
Executioners will be good against opponents without invulns but invulns are so prevalent now that -2 is quite optimal. I find the executioners biggest weakness being 36" range which means opponents can counter deploy against them. I would probably consider going max half and half with conquerors. Executioners also only come out better when you overcharge and -1 is also prevalent that once again a conqueror will be better.
Against a magnus the st 8 and -2 is sufficient and it has better range to get the shot off without having to move more than 5"
A single basilisk isnt going to get through much work. They do well in bigger groups but I am surprised you cant even hide 1 behind cover.
Also you need the screen so wouldnt trade for scions. However I would definitely recommend adding 1 or 2 naked scion squads to help cap far objectives. Will always give you better chance of gaining points, but won kill (you have tanks for that!).
Khadorstompy wrote: Another ITC game vs a Castellean Guard list with 3 Basillisks 2 Helrevins and 3 Vultures.
Overall I was pleased with my ability to turn 1 destroy a castelean even with losing 3 tanks but Have come to realise the Executioners just can't deal with things very well. I feel they have under-preformed the games I have tried them in and that the Conquerors are a superior choice.
Might try working in a Basilisk.
Also as everyone is spraying my infantry squads to death turn one might swap them out for MT:Sions.
Executioners will be good against opponents without invulns but invulns are so prevalent now that -2 is quite optimal. I find the executioners biggest weakness being 36" range which means opponents can counter deploy against them. I would probably consider going max half and half with conquerors. Executioners also only come out better when you overcharge and -1 is also prevalent that once again a conqueror will be better.
Against a magnus the st 8 and -2 is sufficient and it has better range to get the shot off without having to move more than 5"
A single basilisk isnt going to get through much work. They do well in bigger groups but I am surprised you cant even hide 1 behind cover.
Also you need the screen so wouldnt trade for scions. However I would definitely recommend adding 1 or 2 naked scion squads to help cap far objectives. Will always give you better chance of gaining points, but won kill (you have tanks for that!).
With the Executioners... their real value IMO is the flat 2 damage over the random nature of D3 on the Battle Cannon. Nothing is worse than shooting at a squad of 2 wound models, and for damage rolling a 1, then rolling a 6, and knowing you just wasted 2 damage that should have killed something else.
Yes 2 damage is nice. Certainly against Primaris, Terminators and the like the D2 and -3 is sweet. I take plasma sponsons for that job for the most part.
Personally I like my tanks to be able to take out their main threats so having a mix of ranged fire power is important. Tank commanders with regular battle cannons (allows them to pop out from rear LOS cover) and regulars as conquerors (likely to be front line tanks so having a chance to use their 24" range reroll).
I have to say, after the last few games with my mono guard list that they almost feel like glass cannons.
Everything dies just so damn easy, including Russes. The lack of accessible invurln saves on the army (outside of a few specialist melee units) really hurts them. I'll land lascannon/melta shots on enemy knights and they just bounce off the CP reroll saves. Meanwhile -4 AP just utterly rips through my army without mercy. I feel I have no answer to stuff like Custodes that are strong enough to get into melee and then its game over. 4+ BS hurts badly too with army wide negative to hit modifiers being really common in my meta.
Infantry squads are the most overrated unit in the game (when being used for something other than loyal 32 CP battery). The squad maximum of 10 utterly gimps them and mine die very easily to the plethora of anti-chaff weapons in this edition. I think GW drank the internet rage kool aid that argued they are the strongest unit in the game. Mine have never done a thing except hold backline objectives. S3 AP0 does literally nothing to anything other than grots and other guard.
The book felt right when it was dropped but the constant nerfs and codexes since have left the AM book in a really bad spot I think. i
glados wrote: I have to say, after the last few games with my mono guard list that they almost feel like glass cannons.
Everything dies just so damn easy, including Russes. The lack of accessible invurln saves on the army (outside of a few specialist melee units) really hurts them. I'll land lascannon/melta shots on enemy knights and they just bounce off the CP reroll saves. Meanwhile -4 AP just utterly rips through my army without mercy. I feel I have no answer to stuff like Custodes that are strong enough to get into melee and then its game over. 4+ BS hurts badly too with army wide negative to hit modifiers being really common in my meta.
Infantry squads are the most overrated unit in the game (when being used for something other than loyal 32 CP battery). The squad maximum of 10 utterly gimps them and mine die very easily to the plethora of anti-chaff weapons in this edition. I think GW drank the internet rage kool aid that argued they are the strongest unit in the game. Mine have never done a thing except hold backline objectives. S3 AP0 does literally nothing to anything other than grots and other guard.
The book felt right when it was dropped but the constant nerfs and codexes since have left the AM book in a really bad spot I think. i
Russes are fairly easy to kill, but they're also some of the highest damage per point units in the game. Never take anything except Tank Commanders, my new favorite loadout is 3x heavy bolters on them. Make sure you take the vigilus tank formation, and always take the relic cannon on one of them. I always take them as Cadian as well, the re-roll number of shots order is great, and if you tag a big scary thing with something else first and use overlapping fields of fire, your tank commanders hit on 2+ and re-roll misses. Very strong.
Infantry is decent for a troops choice, especially with orders. Most troops are terrible, Guardsmen are not bad for their cost if you give them First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire, 2 squads rapid firing average 4 dead marines for 110 points (2 squads + officer). Against less durable targets, they're very good for their cost. Eldar are the scariest thing a Guard player can fight, and if you get Guardsmen in rapid fire range they will take the Eldar apart.
Anyone else annoyed by all this allying armies for CPs. Is this just a GW money making scheme because it's pretty lame to me. Just started collecting again but i'm already being put off.
How long do you think before 9th edition hits?
I've been trying to get some leman russ conqueror turrets because I play vostroyans but they are oop and I can't find any, feels bad man.
whitelion40k wrote: Anyone else annoyed by all this allying armies for CPs. Is this just a GW money making scheme because it's pretty lame to me. Just started collecting again but i'm already being put off.
How long do you think before 9th edition hits?
Not really... My current tournament army I'm working on is almost a 50/50 split between Guard and Knights, I'm not allying in the Guard just for CP.
The LVO tournament winner was 1400 points of Guard, 600 points of Knights. Not allying just for CP. The "loyal 32" IMO is not as good as actually taking advantage of the strengths of the Guard codex.
whitelion40k wrote: Anyone else annoyed by all this allying armies for CPs. Is this just a GW money making scheme because it's pretty lame to me. Just started collecting again but i'm already being put off.
How long do you think before 9th edition hits?
I've been trying to get some leman russ conqueror turrets because I play vostroyans but they are oop and I can't find any, feels bad man.
Well given whats been announced its not likely to be this year. Allies have been a core part of the game for a few editions now thats not likely to change.
whitelion40k wrote: Anyone else annoyed by all this allying armies for CPs. Is this just a GW money making scheme because it's pretty lame to me. Just started collecting again but i'm already being put off.
How long do you think before 9th edition hits?
Not really... My current tournament army I'm working on is almost a 50/50 split between Guard and Knights, I'm not allying in the Guard just for CP.
The LVO tournament winner was 1400 points of Guard, 600 points of Knights. Not allying just for CP. The "loyal 32" IMO is not as good as actually taking advantage of the strengths of the Guard codex.
Right, which means he wasn't just allying for CP. I mean that was a bonus of using Guard as an ally, sure, but it wasn't the only reason he took Guard as an ally for his Castellan.
glados wrote: I have to say, after the last few games with my mono guard list that they almost feel like glass cannons.
Infantry squads are the most overrated unit in the game (when being used for something other than loyal 32 CP battery). The squad maximum of 10 utterly gimps them and mine die very easily to the plethora of anti-chaff weapons in this edition. I think GW drank the internet rage kool aid that argued they are the strongest unit in the game. Mine have never done a thing except hold backline objectives. S3 AP0 does literally nothing to anything other than grots and other guard.
The book felt right when it was dropped but the constant nerfs and codexes since have left the AM book in a really bad spot I think. i
No one expects mono guard to be competitive against soup. They are however strong when compared mono codex.
Infantry squads are good if taken mass (more than just the minimum 3 or 6 squads) and you have decent table top cover. Rushing out in the open will see them get mulched pretty quick but if you can get them moving building to building then they are tough to remove for some lists.
The codex is fine however with knights around, and a meta geared to take them out, Russes and guard super heavies will struggle. That doesnt make guard bad, it just means you have to soup to be competitive.
Wouldn't they still be good without the acts of faith. I mean I know its better rules but the acts of faith don't make them good. It's he 2++ no.
If those acts of faith go live why would you use those acts over the ones in the codex anyway?
The crusaders in the beta rules dont even have the same keywords and are 2 pts cheaper..??
Becauae they state in the forward to the sob beta codex that they intend to update the AM datasheet in the final version so you wont have a choice.
The ability to move twice or fight twice is huge when it comes to damage output and that turn 5 sprint to an objective. Sure they are still viable without but they go from being a flexible unit to a tank objective holder and they are competeing with 30 infantry
U02dah4 wrote: Becauae they state in the forward to the sob beta codex that they intend to update the AM datasheet in the final version so you wont have a choice.
The ability to move twice or fight twice is huge when it comes to damage output and that turn 5 sprint to an objective. Sure they are still viable without but they go from being a flexible unit to a tank objective holder and they are competeing with 30 infantry
Yea that's true. Well that kinda sucks, hope the acts of faith don't end up being too bad then. I just feel like my guard infantry just get mowed down way to easy, really sucks. Even just having a 2++ staying power sounds good to me, but i'm a fairly new player.
135 bolt gun shots from space marines to kill 10 crusaders vs 102 for 30 guardsmen (not factoring moral) but infantry have range and take up a bigger surface area and are cheaper.
AP1,2 make infantry die faster where as crusaders are immune but crusaders get weaker if your psychic power fails.
Its not a terible choice it just goes from an optimised unit i have happily run in a tourney and would again to a mediochre one.
U02dah4 wrote: 135 bolt gun shots from space marines to kill 10 crusaders vs 102 for 30 guardsmen (not factoring moral) but infantry have range and take up a bigger surface area and are cheaper.
AP1,2 make infantry die faster where as crusaders are immune but crusaders get weaker if your psychic power fails.
Its not a terible choice it just goes from an optimised unit i have happily run in a tourney and would again to a mediochre one.
Yea true, well thanks for the info big help. Do you think they will keep the acts of faith as is? Anyway I hope they buff it a bit once it's released as a codex.
I personally feel that sob are a little on the underpowered side an AoF is oe feature that could be altered to improve them but there are other options its very much a wait and see.
Shrug. I feel for a mono army guard is quite good compared to most. Its just hard to match up to the best units and stratagems of 3 armies at once with a single army. And heck as you can see from my reports my mono guard has been holding its own.
Khadorstompy wrote: Shrug. I feel for a mono army guard is quite good compared to most. Its just hard to match up to the best units and stratagems of 3 armies at once with a single army. And heck as you can see from my reports my mono guard has been holding its own.
Guard is probably the second best Mono codex. I'd put it a bit behind Craftworld Eldar, but maybe that's just because an Alaitoc army just naturally hard counters Guard. And even then though, you can specifically list tailor to kill them.
Yeah as long as you don't take tourney results into account which consistently show a host of mono factions tau drukhari orks nids doing better hell even mechanicus post CA. Mono guard has a terrible success rate but it is a damn good soup component
3++ save with astropath or psyker casting psychic barrier on them to improve their saving rolls by 1, giving them a 3+/2++
Can't they also just "Take Cover'?
Take Cover got errata'd to no longer do anything.
Unless you're an Ogryn. They can literally have a 2+ save against freaking plasma, if you have them in cover, with barrier cast on them, and use Take Cover.
No, I mean it literally. Take Cover does nothing because there is no such thing as an Armour Save. Slab Shields also do nothing now. Also Slab Shields are for Bullgryns, not Ogryns.
whitelion40k wrote: Anyone know where I can get some leman russ conqueror turrets?
I checked forgeworld site but they seem to be oop.
Thanks all.
The only way I was able to get mine was to 3D print them myself. Well maybe not exactly myself - my son has a 3D printer and I gave him the file to print. Looks really sharp and fits perfectly on my russ bodies.
BaconCatBug wrote: No, I mean it literally. Take Cover does nothing because there is no such thing as an Armour Save. Slab Shields also do nothing now. Also Slab Shields are for Bullgryns, not Ogryns.
... Well damn. You're right. I wonder does anyone actually play that? Like, if in a tournament I said I was using Take Cover, and my opponent said I couldn't do that, would a T/O rule in his favor or not?
BaconCatBug wrote: No, I mean it literally. Take Cover does nothing because there is no such thing as an Armour Save. Slab Shields also do nothing now. Also Slab Shields are for Bullgryns, not Ogryns.
... Well damn. You're right. I wonder does anyone actually play that? Like, if in a tournament I said I was using Take Cover, and my opponent said I couldn't do that, would a T/O rule in his favor or not?
A T/Os job is to make up and enforce house rules. A T/O can decide that all pink models have a 1++ save and move 30", and that's their call. What a T/O decides and what the rules say have no relation.
BaconCatBug wrote: No, I mean it literally. Take Cover does nothing because there is no such thing as an Armour Save. Slab Shields also do nothing now. Also Slab Shields are for Bullgryns, not Ogryns.
... Well damn. You're right. I wonder does anyone actually play that? Like, if in a tournament I said I was using Take Cover, and my opponent said I couldn't do that, would a T/O rule in his favor or not?
As an opponent, I'd certainly allow it to work as intended.
I'd imagine most TOs would rule the same way-the intent of the Strat is blindingly obvious, even if the RAW is borked. If you're really worried, contact your TO ahead of time.
Horst wrote: I wonder does anyone actually play that?
No. BCB's hobby is derailing threads with ridiculous RAW arguments that have nothing to do with the game as played by real people. Everyone knows how Take Cover is supposed to work and no reasonable person is going to argue that GW intended to errata it to say "this does nothing" but decided to do so via a wording change that can be interpreted to not function if you read it carefully enough instead of "page XX: remove the Take Cover stratagem". No TO that wants to have repeat customers is going to respond with anything other than "stop being TFG, of course the stratagem works as intended". The fact that BCB is able to find a piece of the rule that technically isn't correct by the strictest RAW interpretation is of interest to BCB and nobody else.
Horst wrote: I wonder does anyone actually play that?
No. BCB's hobby is derailing threads with ridiculous RAW arguments that have nothing to do with the game as played by real people. Everyone knows how Take Cover is supposed to work and no reasonable person is going to argue that GW intended to errata it to say "this does nothing" but decided to do so via a wording change that can be interpreted to not function if you read it carefully enough instead of "page XX: remove the Take Cover stratagem". No TO that wants to have repeat customers is going to respond with anything other than "stop being TFG, of course the stratagem works as intended". The fact that BCB is able to find a piece of the rule that technically isn't correct by the strictest RAW interpretation is of interest to BCB and nobody else.
I kind of find it interesting as well, more as a curiosity than anything else, but yea I'd gotta assume that no TO would ever rule that way, just wanted to make sure.
BaconCatBug wrote: No, I mean it literally. Take Cover does nothing because there is no such thing as an Armour Save. Slab Shields also do nothing now. Also Slab Shields are for Bullgryns, not Ogryns.
What should it have said? Are you referring to the wording "Armour Save" vs just "Save"?
BaconCatBug wrote: No, I mean it literally. Take Cover does nothing because there is no such thing as an Armour Save. Slab Shields also do nothing now. Also Slab Shields are for Bullgryns, not Ogryns.
What should it have said? Are you referring to the wording "Armour Save" vs just "Save"?
Only reason it says armour save was because it used to work on invul saves but they FAQed it to say armour, meaning reg save rather than all saves.
BaconCatBug wrote: No, I mean it literally. Take Cover does nothing because there is no such thing as an Armour Save. Slab Shields also do nothing now. Also Slab Shields are for Bullgryns, not Ogryns.
What should it have said? Are you referring to the wording "Armour Save" vs just "Save"?
Only reason it says armour save was because it used to work on invul saves but they FAQed it to say armour, meaning reg save rather than all saves.
If they "meant" it to mean only regular saves, the rule would have said "excluding invulnerable saves", but it doesn't, so it doesn't mean that. The irony is of course they had the wording just fine all along, with the base cover rules and they STILL messed it up.
BaconCatBug wrote: No, I mean it literally. Take Cover does nothing because there is no such thing as an Armour Save. Slab Shields also do nothing now. Also Slab Shields are for Bullgryns, not Ogryns.
What should it have said? Are you referring to the wording "Armour Save" vs just "Save"?
Only reason it says armour save was because it used to work on invul saves but they FAQed it to say armour, meaning reg save rather than all saves.
If they "meant" it to mean only regular saves, the rule would have said "excluding invulnerable saves", but it doesn't, so it doesn't mean that.
Did they "mean" for it to do literally nothing though? I mean I agree with you that RAW it's not doing anything, but I don't think I will ever agree with anyone saying they "meant" for it to do nothing at all. More likely GW just isn't good at writing rules.
If anyone argues that while playing, I'll just concede the match and say he wins, because that's not a game I want to play. If it's a T/O saying it, unless its literally like the LVO or something I've paid hundreds of dollars to travel to and attend, I would simply withdraw from the tournament, and probably not come back for the next one. No reasonable person IMO would conclude that a stratagem has no possible effect.
Horst wrote: No reasonable person IMO would conclude that a stratagem has no possible effect.
And who gets to decide reasonable? I can just as easily claim that from my point of view, No Reasonable Person would conclude that my Ultramarines don't automatically hit with all their weapons and don't have a 2+++. The only objective thing we have are what the rules actually say, so to ignore one rule is to ignore them all IMHO.
Anyway, it was intended as a throwaway statement and not to blow out of proportion, so I'll drop the matter and hope others will too.
Anyone had success with the Vigilus Detachment and Basilisks? I am loathe to use the formations because they are just one more step to the nonsense that was 7th edition but if they are good they are good and to ignore them out of spite would be petty even for me. AP-4 Catachan Earthshakers seem super tasty and being able to use a crippled one to suppress instead of hit on 6's also seems nice.
Horst wrote: No reasonable person IMO would conclude that a stratagem has no possible effect.
And who gets to decide reasonable? I can just as easily claim that from my point of view, No Reasonable Person would conclude that my Ultramarines don't automatically hit with all their weapons and don't have a 2+++. The only objective thing we have are what the rules actually say, so to ignore one rule is to ignore them all IMHO.
Anyway, it was intended as a throwaway statement and not to blow out of proportion, so I'll drop the matter and hope others will too.
Anyone had success with the Vigilus Detachment and Basilisks? I am loathe to use the formations because they are just one more step to the nonsense that was 7th edition but if they are good they are good and to ignore them out of spite would be petty even for me. AP-4 Catachan Earthshakers seem super tasty and being able to use a crippled one to suppress instead of hit on 6's also seems nice.
My definition of reasonable is that all rules have some effect at some point in time, otherwise it would simply be removed.. If a rule is written in such a way that it has zero effect, then a reasonable person would probably ask, "what is it *meant* to do", and reach some sort of conclusion. But yea, I'll stop arguing abou tthis, sure.
I've had a lot of success with the vigilus detachment on my Basilisk in smaller point games. We're doing a 500 pt Escalation league at my local GW, and at 500 points, being able to double fire a Basilisk is nasty. If you're playing pure Guard, you have points to spare, so Pounding Barrage + Overlapping Fields of Fire as a Cadian Guard player is a great way to spend 4 CP per turn, and a Basilisk double firing hitting on 3+ re-rolling 1's it's just extremely powerful for only 108 points.
BaconCatBug wrote: If they "meant" it to mean only regular saves, the rule would have said "excluding invulnerable saves", but it doesn't, so it doesn't mean that. The irony is of course they had the wording just fine all along, with the base cover rules and they STILL messed it up.
They messed up thinking people would read it otherwise what is obviously intended.
Does this mean that you dont use these rules in game BCB?
I do appreciate your rules stance for the most part but sometimes these throwaway comments only serve to derail the discussion.
As for vigilus artillery, it think its decent. The ignore cover relic is decent too if you plan to take wyverns for example. These detachments are for the most part good as they give guard some more flexibility with units we already take.
So assassin list is now a thing. Im thinking drop the castellan to a crusader or a cerastus. Add 4 assassin's, now all your cp goes to popping the assassin strats and the knight is good with minimal cp.
Exalted Court [-1CP]: Exalted Court: 1 Extra Warlord Trait
Heirlooms of the Household [-1CP]: Heirlooms of the Household: 1 Extra Heirloom
Household Choice: House Raven, Questor Mechanicus
+ Lord of War +
Knight Crusader [25 PL, 497pts]: Character (Exalted Court), Character (Heirloom of the House), Heavy Stubber, Heirloom: Endless Fury, Stormspear Rocket Pod, Thermal Cannon, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark
. Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer: Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer
Not sure which combo of assassin's is needed, maybe the 1 of each detachment is best? or maybe 2 vindicare and 2 culexus! Though having 1 of each means starts will be popping alot each turn to possible amazing effect.
Yea, everyone I've played with around me tend to follow all suggested rules. After all, all the rules are suggestions in the end. If you pick and choose which ones to follow, you're just making up house rules then.
I'm honestly still not sure if they're worth it or not. The Calidus, for example, with it's Deception rule... it only procs on a 4+, and it takes 1 CP and 85 points to bring the assassin. So on average if they use 2 stratagems you'll cost them 1 extra CP, bringing you to a net gain of nothing, since you had to spend 1 CP to remove one from the enemy.
The Eversor looks decidedly meh to me, yea he gets an extra attack per kill he makes, but he's only attacking at STR 5 and AP-1, so he's not good against anything that's expensive anyway. If he kills a few screening units, that's nice, but its nothing a few mortars couldn't do better.
The Culexus looks interesting, but it's still requiring you to be within 18" of the enemy to get the -2, so many buff powers will still be very useful. He can help shut down smites on big units I guess though, so if you're doing Knights he can be useful. Still, he costs 85 points and 1 CP for that ability, so it's not exactly cheap.
The Vindicare looks interesting as well, doing ~3 damage on average to each thing he shoots at, with the ability to double-shoot. The ignore negative modifiers thing is very interesting, as is the ignores invulnerable saves. Against something like Harlequin Skyweavers, he basically just removes one of them, which is great. Again though, he costs 85 points and 1 CP, so he's not cheap, and he'd have to kill at least 2-3 characters / models to make his points back.
Horst wrote: I'm honestly still not sure if they're worth it or not. The Calidus, for example, with it's Deception rule... it only procs on a 4+, and it takes 1 CP and 85 points to bring the assassin. So on average if they use 2 stratagems you'll cost them 1 extra CP, bringing you to a net gain of nothing, since you had to spend 1 CP to remove one from the enemy.
The Eversor looks decidedly meh to me, yea he gets an extra attack per kill he makes, but he's only attacking at STR 5 and AP-1, so he's not good against anything that's expensive anyway. If he kills a few screening units, that's nice, but its nothing a few mortars couldn't do better.
The Culexus looks interesting, but it's still requiring you to be within 18" of the enemy to get the -2, so many buff powers will still be very useful. He can help shut down smites on big units I guess though, so if you're doing Knights he can be useful. Still, he costs 85 points and 1 CP for that ability, so it's not exactly cheap.
The Vindicare looks interesting as well, doing ~3 damage on average to each thing he shoots at, with the ability to double-shoot. The ignore negative modifiers thing is very interesting, as is the ignores invulnerable saves. Against something like Harlequin Skyweavers, he basically just removes one of them, which is great. Again though, he costs 85 points and 1 CP, so he's not cheap, and he'd have to kill at least 2-3 characters / models to make his points back.
I disagree especially on the Eversor. Vs any Horde army then thing is a damn blender. On average vs a Mob of Boys the Turn he is coming in he is waxing 13 boys then consolidating 6 inches. And if he manges to get near a heavier armored target he has a melta bomb for some surprise damage. Then when he goes get taken down he has one of the best damn explosion abilities with a 6" range and you roll a dice for each enemy in that range rather then then just when he dies. I see people having a hard time NOT getting his value back.
Vindicare is certainly most improved. However I think their is one thing to the Calidus that alot of people overlook. And that is her gun. Its 9" range is moot since 83% of the time you will be droping her within range of it. And it deals mortal wounds. Theirs not many things out side of psykic that deals straight up mortal wounds. Add in a sword that ignore invul saves and she is quite the excelent character killing for those that still their cheap warlord in a terrain piece in a hard to get to area.
And I agree that while one of pretty much any assassin can be managed. I think taking them in bulk is going to give some people conniptions.
Remember, spending 1 CP to take the assassin only applies if you take the "pick one at the start of the game, no detachment required" option. If you spend a detachment for your assassin(s) you just pay 85 ppm for them like any other unit. And IMO it's worth it for the flexibility. The Culexus and Calidus are specialist tools that require the right opponent to be worth it, while the Vindicare and Eversor are just straightforward firepower. For 1 CP you gain the ability to pick the situational tool that applies to your current opponent, or trade out the situational tool for more conventional guns if neither applies. And as an added bonus you don't have to burn a detachment on a single model.
Also, remember that assassins are almost always going to be at least CP neutral, and probably a net CP gain. You get a net +1 CP each turn you kill a character and you should be killing characters. So really you're spending 85 points to add another CP battery to your army, on top of some nice firepower. This is is almost certainly an auto-take unless assassins become so common in the meta that they cancel each other out every game.
So on average if they use 2 stratagems you'll cost them 1 extra CP, bringing you to a net gain of nothing, since you had to spend 1 CP to remove one from the enemy.
We're IG, generating tons of CP is what we do. If your opponent wants to trade CP 1:1 you're almost always coming out ahead.
Yup most imperium armies will want to have 1 of each on standby. Prior to this I had no need for a vindicare as he was a bit subpar taken as singular assassin. I might have to reconsider.
Ran an Assassin/Custodes/Guard list today vs Death guard.
Took 3 Eversors/2 Vindicare/1 Callidus.
The Eversors were a bit underwhelming this game. 1 shredded Cultist screen and then got bogged down by a unit of Nurglings.
The other 2 Tied up a Plague Crawler and a DeroDero dread for a round. But all 3 of them got eaten by DPs Did keep the DPs back in his half of the BF though.
The Vindicares didn't have many good targets as everything was a monsters with 6+ toughness or Vechicle. However One did make a beut of a shot 1 shooting his Warlord he had moved out in the open to try and spread its aura around. Also one did some critical damage to a rhino in the last turn which gave me just kills to end 1 point ahead at the end of turn 6 26-25.
Callidus did good a scraped off additiona 2l CP. Also was extremely useful in killing the nurglings guarding his objective (Probably should have kept it camped there.) It ended up also finishing off a wounded plague Crawler. Got eaten by a DP after doing that though.
Rest of the game was a heroic charge by the Vertus Bikers taking a out a plague drone and Plague marine squad and snatching an objective for a round. Then got eaten by both Deamon Princes falling on them.... Which seems to be a result that most of my lost units faced.
The 3 Callidus grave tanks had a ranged duel with 3 Plague Crawlers and the Derodero while being backed up by Trajan and a Vexilus Preator. Ended up losing 2 of the Grav tanks (And Trajan to 2 more bloat drones the charge in) But they took out The Derodero, the 3 Plague Crawlers, and 1 of the 3 Bloat Drones.
The was probably the first time I was really missing not having a Telemon to help deal with the Plaguebust Crawlers.
The mortar teams didn't do much other then bang up a few Nurgling units and a wound here and there. Least use I have ever gotten out of them.
The DPs were an absolute pain to deal with. Going to have to figure out something to deal with those donkey-caves.
Tragan who I Throught would do better really didn't do much even in melee with a Bloat Drone. Part of it was fairly bad rolls. But he just underwhelmed.
You should try with the new rules, Eversor should clear more and be able to tag more with extra attacks, attack twice and consolidate 6, and a much bigger explosion radius. Vindicare also can now spam MW against DPS for 1cp each turn.
So I came into a somewhat absurd amount of fliers for guard and I wanted to try something a little different. I'd been struggling to find a theme for my Catachans and I think I've found it. I have no illusions of grandeur but for those crazy few who have tried air cav lists, do you see any red flags or unintentionally broken rules? I've never used a flier before so this is a big change of pace. Our group still allows index options by the way.
Keep in mind I still have spare valks and a vulture on top of what you see here... Yeah it's a hell of a squadron. Going for an apocalypse now theme. The warlord is the air cav commander from the movie
Spoiler:
1st Batallion:
-Company Commander: Boltgun/power swords Relic Mamorth Tuskblade/wlt Master of command
BaconCatBug wrote: If they "meant" it to mean only regular saves, the rule would have said "excluding invulnerable saves", but it doesn't, so it doesn't mean that. The irony is of course they had the wording just fine all along, with the base cover rules and they STILL messed it up.
They messed up thinking people would read it otherwise what is obviously intended.
Does this mean that you dont use these rules in game BCB?
I do appreciate your rules stance for the most part but sometimes these throwaway comments only serve to derail the discussion.
As for vigilus artillery, it think its decent. The ignore cover relic is decent too if you plan to take wyverns for example. These detachments are for the most part good as they give guard some more flexibility with units we already take.
Well he claims he plays 100% RAW so yes. Of course since you cannot play 40k with 100% RAW through that means he has actually never FINISHED a game and is instead in infinite loop in his first game of 40k since 100% RAW doesnt' allow him to finish it.
so I am trying to do a new list for my next game and I wanna try some of the new Vigilus Detachments. Its the first time I post a list here to get some tips for the list and maybe for the future with regard to things I usually don't notice. I am propably facing Eldar/Harlequin, with the usual, so some alaitoc rangers and hemlock, sam hainn shining spears and some harlequins. Something like that.
So for my list:
2000 Points
-3 CP Imperial Armoury
Brigade (Catachan): HQ:
Straken
Company Commander (Warlord) Grand Strategist, Laurels of Command
Primaris Psyker, Nightshroud, Psychic Barrier
Fast Attack:
3x Hellhounds, Infernocannon, Heavy Flamer, Track Guards
Heavy Support:
3x3 HWS Mortars
Supreme Command Detachment:
Emperors Fist Tank Company
Catachan
HQ:
1x Tank Commander, Hammer of Sunderance, 2x Plasma Cannons, Lascannon, Heavy Stubber
2x Tank Commander, Battle Cannon, 2x Plasma Cannons, Lascannon, Heavy Stubber
Spearhead Detachment:
Emperors Wrath
Catachan
HQ: Company Commander, Kurovs Aquila
Heavy Support: Basilisk, Heavy Bolter
Basilisk, Heavy Bolter
Hydra, Heavy Bolter
So what do you think? Or should I cut the Emperors Wrath Detachment and make it a normal spearhead one?
MrMoustaffa wrote: So I came into a somewhat absurd amount of fliers for guard and I wanted to try something a little different. I'd been struggling to find a theme for my Catachans and I think I've found it. I have no illusions of grandeur but for those crazy few who have tried air cav lists, do you see any red flags or unintentionally broken rules? I've never used a flier before so this is a big change of pace. Our group still allows index options by the way.
Keep in mind I still have spare valks and a vulture on top of what you see here... Yeah it's a hell of a squadron. Going for an apocalypse now theme. The warlord is the air cav commander from the movie
Spoiler:
1st Batallion:
-Company Commander: Boltgun/power swords Relic Mamorth Tuskblade/wlt Master of command
-Sly Marbo
-X3 Infantry squad: Boltgun, GL
-x3 Vets: plasma pistol, X3 plasma gun
-Command squad: Regimental Standard, X3 melta
-Special Weapon Squad: X3 demo charge
-x2 Valkyrie: Multi Laser, x2 rocket pod
-x2 Vulture: x2 punisher
2nd Batallion
-x2 Company Commander: Powerfist/plasma pistol
-x3 Infantry Squad: Boltgun, GL, ML
-x3 officer of the fleet
-Harker
-Avenger with x2 ML
-X2 Valkyrie: Multi Laser, Rocket pods
I've played a good bit of Catachan Air Assault and it's a blast. I'd say the biggest thing to plan for is to use your fliers to block enemy ground unit movement. Use those big flyer bases to your advantage! Oh, and don't forget to charge Valks in first to eat overwatch if you're going to get into melee.
I've also used special weapon squads with demo charges, don't forget to use the grenade strat.
I've also used the Avenger because it's such a cool model but do not expect it to do much. It is straight up bad. It will never earn back even a small % of it's points back. The vulture is amazing though. And I actually like Valks after they drop off their cargo and hover. I give mine lascannons.
Thanks for the tips col. Cross. I'm surprised with the lascannons on the valks, I'd figure moving so much they'd be unreliable and you'd want high volume of fire weapons.
And yeah the avenger is rough but like you said it looks cool and I'm determined to use it. What loadout would you recommend? I'm looking at missile launchers because they're cheap and flexible compared to it's other options. Tac bombs seem lackluster for a one shot weapon and the other ones either fill anti horde that I have in spades or cost twice as much for almost exactly the same AT ability.
Also how does grav chute insertion work? From the wording I think it means I must disembark outside of 9", but then can move afterwards like a normal disembark. Or is it more like a deepstrike where you drop in and then cannot move from that point. Essentially that's going to determine how I use things like the demo team or even maybe add in some bullgryns.
Drop 9'' or more, then move, deep strike prevents that because it happens at the end of the moving phase or something, whereas grav chute has no such limitation
I usually run 2 to 3 hellhounds in my list but have noticed they really don't earn back their points either in stuff killed or tactically like tying up other units etc. In fact most people know about their explosive capabilities and since 99% of the time I tend to go second I very often lose at least 1 which often enough translates into mortal wounds being thrown about in my lines. The ones that do survive roll up into the enemy lines as quickly as possible, get off one shot and then are unceremoniously killed off - maybe also spewing out MWs and sometimes not. So for 1.25 hellhounds I can take sentinels and spend the remaining points on more efficient units. Based on that what's a better sentinel in today's meta? I don't see a reason not to take an armored sentinel - yeah it's a little slower and doesn't have access to GO RECON but for a better save and one better toughness I think I like it better? I've just always taken scout sentinels, I think, because that's what I saw everyone else taking. Figured I'd give them autocannons, try to put them in cover if possible and pew-pew from a distance.
I think an autocannon, missile launcher, or lascannon works best for sentinels. Plasma cannon is limited to armored sentinels only and it basically requires you stand still if you are going to overload it unless you are Tallarn, at which point you still have a 1/6 chance each shot of blowing yourself up. Multilaser is still overpriced garbage.
I personally prefer lascannons, and keeping my sentinels back in cover and plinking away at vehicles. They usually do damage about once or twice a game, which is enough to make their points back against what lascannons are good at shooting at. Shooting at infantry is usually a waste of time, even for autocannon and ML (frag) sentinels. Keeping them in cover usually deincentivizes enemies from shooting at them. They are tough enough in cover that it usually takes a bit of firepower to remove them, and opponents usually have better targets to spend their firepower on.
w1zard wrote: I think an autocannon, missile launcher, or lascannon works best for sentinels. Plasma cannon is limited to armored sentinels only and it basically requires you stand still if you are going to overload it unless you are Tallarn, at which point you still have a 1/6 chance each shot of blowing yourself up. Multilaser is still overpriced garbage.
I personally prefer lascannons, and keeping my sentinels back in cover and plinking away at vehicles. They usually do damage about once or twice a game, which is enough to make their points back against what lascannons are good at shooting at. Shooting at infantry is usually a waste of time, even for autocannon and ML (frag) sentinels. Keeping them in cover usually deincentivizes enemies from shooting at them. They are tough enough in cover that it usually takes a bit of firepower to remove them, and opponents usually have better targets to spend their firepower on.
Cadian Plasma Cannon sentinels are pretty viable, they've got a 1/36 chance of exploding if you don't move them, so they offer some decent firepower for a 40pt force org slot filler.
2 Flyers and 21 infantry seems lite on both painting time and cost honestly.
But what about the merits of the dropforce itself? I'm thinking of fielding one and it sort of feels like a nice little package of reliable firepower. Use the warlord trait, 3 squads, 2 commanders and a command squad. All hitting on 2s probably using the reroll wound orders. All that feels like it could put a decent dent in anything. From turn one too. (hovering to the frontlines to let you disembark without the 1/6 chance of dying.) You should even get the tempestus bonus on all your weapons if the positioning is right.
cody.d. wrote: 2 Flyers and 21 infantry seems lite on both painting time and cost honestly.
But what about the merits of the dropforce itself? I'm thinking of fielding one and it sort of feels like a nice little package of reliable firepower. Use the warlord trait, 3 squads, 2 commanders and a command squad. All hitting on 2s probably using the reroll wound orders. All that feels like it could put a decent dent in anything. From turn one too. (hovering to the frontlines to let you disembark without the 1/6 chance of dying.) You should even get the tempestus bonus on all your weapons if the positioning is right.
I've played against it, it has a really nasty punch, but you're going to lose the whole drop force in the subsequent turn minus the fliers. In ITC, it's a huge liability because MSU Scion squads are points pinatas because you're basically giving up an easy killed one, killed more, and at least one butcher's bill and progress towards reaper.
cody.d. wrote: 2 Flyers and 21 infantry seems lite on both painting time and cost honestly.
But what about the merits of the dropforce itself? I'm thinking of fielding one and it sort of feels like a nice little package of reliable firepower. Use the warlord trait, 3 squads, 2 commanders and a command squad. All hitting on 2s probably using the reroll wound orders. All that feels like it could put a decent dent in anything. From turn one too. (hovering to the frontlines to let you disembark without the 1/6 chance of dying.) You should even get the tempestus bonus on all your weapons if the positioning is right.
Consider what you're getting, and what you're paying for it. You get 10 plasma guns, all under optimal conditions hitting on 2+, re-rolling misses, with exploding 5's and 6's for more plasma shots. So 20 shots base, maybe like 7 extra shots from exploding 5's, so figure you'll get like 26 plasma hits as like an absolute best case. Against a Knight, you'll do 19.5 wounds if you somehow order all of them to re-roll wounds (which I don't think you can do). It has a 3++ save, so 6.43 wounds get through, for ~13 damage average against a Knight. You paid 600+ points for this unit, and it will effectively cut a Knight in half, assuming you get damn near optimal rolls and he rolls average. Next turn they all die.
Another way to get the same firepower... you take 2 Cadian Tank Commander Executioners, with lascannons / plasma cannons. You'll get an average of 13 shots each + a lascannon, and they can all hit on a 2+ if you trigger overlapping fields of fire (or if one of those commanders is Pask) and wound on a 4+ re-rollable if you have an officer with old grudges. That will cost ~400 points, and give you more firepower and more survivability, for damn near the same plasma fire output and accuracy.
Against a player with enough cannon fodder too, the odds of you getting your drop force within 12" of a high value target turn 1 is pretty unlikely. He just puts up a large infantry screen ~9" in front of his big scary things, and you're not getting within 12" of it to rapid fire. It also depends on your opponent having a high value target worth throwing that 600 points against, because it will always die turn 2. Tank Commanders could live longer because you can hold them back and still fire, or maybe buff them with astropaths.
I mean it's probably a fun choice, but it's not better than other Guard options, because it's expensive and the entire force is fragile and depends on your opponent leaving a juicy target out for you to even approach making your points back.
Consider what you're getting, and what you're paying for it. You get 10 plasma guns, all under optimal conditions hitting on 2+, re-rolling misses, with exploding 5's and 6's for more plasma shots. So 20 shots base, maybe like 7 extra shots from exploding 5's, so figure you'll get like 26 plasma hits as like an absolute best case. Against a Knight, you'll do 19.5 wounds if you somehow order all of them to re-roll wounds (which I don't think you can do). It has a 3++ save, so 6.43 wounds get through, for ~13 damage average against a Knight. You paid 600+ points for this unit, and it will effectively cut a Knight in half, assuming you get damn near optimal rolls and he rolls average. Next turn they all die.
Remember that the scions have a doctrine specific order to re-roll all wound rolls against vehicles. I'd probably use that over the re-roll ones. The improvements to the wound rolls is a bit more helpful. Plus you do have the valks lascannons and anti tank missiles to squeeze out some extra damage.
While the comparison to the executioners are valid I feel the flyers with their -1 would be of similar survivability to the tanks, while also giving you a lot of versatility and mobility. Those tanks will help you hold one objective, if you're lucky enough not to have things like da jump lads coming to be the soccer hooligans they were born to be. (idea for later, Hi-Vis vests for orks, re-enact French Riots.)
And if the enemy has got enough chaff to put a ring of troops around his big ticket items then at least you've done a lot to dictate his deployment. Likely as not that will leave some openings to exploit elsewhere. And it's little different than waiting till second turn to drop them in the traditional way right?
Someone suggested that models disembarking with grav chute insertion can still move after doing so. Similar to regular disembarking, but they have to disembark more than 9” away. Is there anything saying they can’t move farther, I.e, their regular move, after doing so?
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: Someone suggested that models disembarking with grav chute insertion can still move after doing so. Similar to regular disembarking, but they have to disembark more than 9” away. Is there anything saying they can’t move farther, I.e, their regular move, after doing so?
No, they get their regular move after grav insertion, so it's a little easier to move them into position, and a little harder to screen against them.
They indeed seem to follow normal disembarking procedures besides the two tweaks of being able to do it at any point during the flyer's movement and the models needing to be set up 9" away from the enemy. It's a nice bonus that you can do this while moving less than 20" in hover mode to dodge the dangerous terrain check.
Consider what you're getting, and what you're paying for it. You get 10 plasma guns, all under optimal conditions hitting on 2+, re-rolling misses, with exploding 5's and 6's for more plasma shots. So 20 shots base, maybe like 7 extra shots from exploding 5's, so figure you'll get like 26 plasma hits as like an absolute best case. Against a Knight, you'll do 19.5 wounds if you somehow order all of them to re-roll wounds (which I don't think you can do). It has a 3++ save, so 6.43 wounds get through, for ~13 damage average against a Knight. You paid 600+ points for this unit, and it will effectively cut a Knight in half, assuming you get damn near optimal rolls and he rolls average. Next turn they all die.
Remember that the scions have a doctrine specific order to re-roll all wound rolls against vehicles. I'd probably use that over the re-roll ones. The improvements to the wound rolls is a bit more helpful. Plus you do have the valks lascannons and anti tank missiles to squeeze out some extra damage.
While the comparison to the executioners are valid I feel the flyers with their -1 would be of similar survivability to the tanks, while also giving you a lot of versatility and mobility. Those tanks will help you hold one objective, if you're lucky enough not to have things like da jump lads coming to be the soccer hooligans they were born to be. (idea for later, Hi-Vis vests for orks, re-enact French Riots.)
And if the enemy has got enough chaff to put a ring of troops around his big ticket items then at least you've done a lot to dictate his deployment. Likely as not that will leave some openings to exploit elsewhere. And it's little different than waiting till second turn to drop them in the traditional way right?
I've yet to play with my fliers yet, but I don't see valks doing a ton of damage. They either have a couple of super expensive krak missiles or they have rocket pods. Neither one is particularly awe inspiring. Don't get me wrong the rocket pods are pretty good for what they are but a lot of what you pay for on a valk is durability and mobility as a transport and I think it shows.
I've yet to play with my fliers yet, but I don't see valks doing a ton of damage. They either have a couple of super expensive krak missiles or they have rocket pods. Neither one is particularly awe inspiring. Don't get me wrong the rocket pods are pretty good for what they are but a lot of what you pay for on a valk is durability and mobility as a transport and I think it shows.
True, and that's a big reason why I don't think this formation will see much tournament use. The Valks, once they've dropped off their cargo, are nowhere near worth their points. And the unit they drop off is powerful, but not good enough to be considered for tournament use when other, better options exist to do similar damage for lower points costs. Like, for your 2 valks + troops, you could literally buy a Knight Castellan. I know which choice is more common.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: Someone suggested that models disembarking with grav chute insertion can still move after doing so. Similar to regular disembarking, but they have to disembark more than 9” away. Is there anything saying they can’t move farther, I.e, their regular move, after doing so?
No, they get their regular move after grav insertion, so it's a little easier to move them into position, and a little harder to screen against them.
cody.d. wrote:They indeed seem to follow normal disembarking procedures besides the two tweaks of being able to do it at any point during the flyer's movement and the models needing to be set up 9" away from the enemy. It's a nice bonus that you can do this while moving less than 20" in hover mode to dodge the dangerous terrain check.
Oh, how very fun. Can ratta-tat-tat with a Valkyrie for a bit while the rest of the army moves into place, and then jump ahead to unleash the Ogryns. Renegade Ogryns in this case, but still valid.
I've yet to play with my fliers yet, but I don't see valks doing a ton of damage. They either have a couple of super expensive krak missiles or they have rocket pods. Neither one is particularly awe inspiring. Don't get me wrong the rocket pods are pretty good for what they are but a lot of what you pay for on a valk is durability and mobility as a transport and I think it shows.
True, and that's a big reason why I don't think this formation will see much tournament use. The Valks, once they've dropped off their cargo, are nowhere near worth their points. And the unit they drop off is powerful, but not good enough to be considered for tournament use when other, better options exist to do similar damage for lower points costs. Like, for your 2 valks + troops, you could literally buy a Knight Castellan. I know which choice is more common.
You don't use them to kill things after the drop. You enter hover mode and charge every non-fly vehicle in his backline with them. Its actually really powerful in a guard v guard match since the valk's base is huge and two of them can easily turn off multiple vehicles (before you say the player being tied up should deploy more spread put, it's not always an option with terrain, deployment zone, and fire lanes forcing you to cluster at least some of your vehicles.)
necron99 wrote: I usually run 2 to 3 hellhounds in my list but have noticed they really don't earn back their points either in stuff killed or tactically like tying up other units etc. In fact most people know about their explosive capabilities and since 99% of the time I tend to go second I very often lose at least 1 which often enough translates into mortal wounds being thrown about in my lines. The ones that do survive roll up into the enemy lines as quickly as possible, get off one shot and then are unceremoniously killed off - maybe also spewing out MWs and sometimes not. So for 1.25 hellhounds I can take sentinels and spend the remaining points on more efficient units. Based on that what's a better sentinel in today's meta? I don't see a reason not to take an armored sentinel - yeah it's a little slower and doesn't have access to GO RECON but for a better save and one better toughness I think I like it better? I've just always taken scout sentinels, I think, because that's what I saw everyone else taking. Figured I'd give them autocannons, try to put them in cover if possible and pew-pew from a distance.
I've been considering FW Tauros Venators for my fast attack slots. I think they're out of print, so I was gonna kitbash some from the quad in the GSC Jackals and use the dirt bikes for rough riders.
That is why I give my Valks all of the weapon upgrades, including a lascannon. Once they drop off their cargo, they're often completely ignored. They just stay in hover mode popping off 3+ shooting and whatever I need from the center of the board. Then they charge something nearby. You can also use their large bases to close off the most direct path to an OBJ or one of your units you don't want assaulted. They have their uses, I'm not saying they're great, but they can be fun and a nuisance for your opponent.
Colonel Cross wrote: That is why I give my Valks all of the weapon upgrades, including a lascannon. Once they drop off their cargo, they're often completely ignored. They just stay in hover mode popping off 3+ shooting and whatever I need from the center of the board. Then they charge something nearby. You can also use their large bases to close off the most direct path to an OBJ or one of your units you don't want assaulted. They have their uses, I'm not saying they're great, but they can be fun and a nuisance for your opponent.
I thought valks didn't get strafing run. How are you getting BS 3+?
Colonel Cross wrote: That is why I give my Valks all of the weapon upgrades, including a lascannon. Once they drop off their cargo, they're often completely ignored. They just stay in hover mode popping off 3+ shooting and whatever I need from the center of the board. Then they charge something nearby. You can also use their large bases to close off the most direct path to an OBJ or one of your units you don't want assaulted. They have their uses, I'm not saying they're great, but they can be fun and a nuisance for your opponent.
I thought valks didn't get strafing run. How are you getting BS 3+?
Valks get Roving Gunship instead.
Also, [Screaming Internally], they have BS4+ and get to add 1 to rolls to hit.
Colonel Cross wrote: That is why I give my Valks all of the weapon upgrades, including a lascannon. Once they drop off their cargo, they're often completely ignored. They just stay in hover mode popping off 3+ shooting and whatever I need from the center of the board. Then they charge something nearby. You can also use their large bases to close off the most direct path to an OBJ or one of your units you don't want assaulted. They have their uses, I'm not saying they're great, but they can be fun and a nuisance for your opponent.
I thought valks didn't get strafing run. How are you getting BS 3+?
Valks get Roving Gunship instead.
Also, [Screaming Internally], they have BS4+ and get to add 1 to rolls to hit.
Add an Officer of the Fleet and you can give reroll ones to hit against a ground target.
necron99 wrote: I usually run 2 to 3 hellhounds in my list but have noticed they really don't earn back their points either in stuff killed or tactically like tying up other units etc. In fact most people know about their explosive capabilities and since 99% of the time I tend to go second I very often lose at least 1 which often enough translates into mortal wounds being thrown about in my lines. The ones that do survive roll up into the enemy lines as quickly as possible, get off one shot and then are unceremoniously killed off - maybe also spewing out MWs and sometimes not. So for 1.25 hellhounds I can take sentinels and spend the remaining points on more efficient units. Based on that what's a better sentinel in today's meta? I don't see a reason not to take an armored sentinel - yeah it's a little slower and doesn't have access to GO RECON but for a better save and one better toughness I think I like it better? I've just always taken scout sentinels, I think, because that's what I saw everyone else taking. Figured I'd give them autocannons, try to put them in cover if possible and pew-pew from a distance.
I've been considering FW Tauros Venators for my fast attack slots. I think they're out of print, so I was gonna kitbash some from the quad in the GSC Jackals and use the dirt bikes for rough riders.
Hiya I have been planning on doing the same but after talking to warhammer shop rep in my area the quads are on to small of a base. He suggested a Ridgerunner for regular Tauros and Kitbashing and deorking some Ork 4 wheelers for the Venator. Basically a Imperial Knight base size for the Venator vehicle.
necron99 wrote: I usually run 2 to 3 hellhounds in my list but have noticed they really don't earn back their points either in stuff killed or tactically like tying up other units etc. In fact most people know about their explosive capabilities and since 99% of the time I tend to go second I very often lose at least 1 which often enough translates into mortal wounds being thrown about in my lines. The ones that do survive roll up into the enemy lines as quickly as possible, get off one shot and then are unceremoniously killed off - maybe also spewing out MWs and sometimes not. So for 1.25 hellhounds I can take sentinels and spend the remaining points on more efficient units. Based on that what's a better sentinel in today's meta? I don't see a reason not to take an armored sentinel - yeah it's a little slower and doesn't have access to GO RECON but for a better save and one better toughness I think I like it better? I've just always taken scout sentinels, I think, because that's what I saw everyone else taking. Figured I'd give them autocannons, try to put them in cover if possible and pew-pew from a distance.
I've been considering FW Tauros Venators for my fast attack slots. I think they're out of print, so I was gonna kitbash some from the quad in the GSC Jackals and use the dirt bikes for rough riders.
Hiya I have been planning on doing the same but after talking to warhammer shop rep in my area the quads are on to small of a base. He suggested a Ridgerunner for regular Tauros and Kitbashing and deorking some Ork 4 wheelers for the Venator. Basically a Imperial Knight base size for the Venator vehicle.
Oh man, I hadn't realized it was as big as the new ork buggies. I played against someone with one a while back and I didnt think it was that big. Thanks for the heads up, back to the drawing board
I think guard just has lackluster fast attack options. Sure, the hellhound and the sentinel aren't BAD, but they aren't particularly great either. Plus it's only two options, and how many heavy support picks do we have?
I dislike the fact that every IG army needs to have either hellhounds or sentinels in it, and I would prefer if we had motorcycle based rough riders (with actual GW models), and another infantry based fast attack option. Maybe also another light combat vehicle.
Well lore wise we do model wise yea I agree. For motorcycle though its an easy kit bash with all GW parts. The fact that Tauros was a thing should have remained.
Rough Riders are still legal, and are perfectly fine. They're cheap, they outflank, and they have at least some punch. WS 4+ on a combat unit is ugly, but they can always take two plasma guns to provide a little surprise to backfield campers.
And hellhounds are better than "fine" in my experience. Yes, smart players will target them early to prevent mortal wounds in their lines, but that's also ranged anti-tank not aimed at your LRBTs or artillery.
I agree that guard are thin at Fast attack. We're the only army without a biker or jump pack unit. That said, we're also the army with probably the cheapest tax filler unit in sentinels.
Hi, I have the opportunity to buy an Astra Militarum army and i would like to have your advises to know if I can build a decent list with it (1000-1500 points range).
Here are the models:
- 6 x10 infantry with some guard w/ plamsa, flamers, grenade launchers
- 2x 10 Vétérans
- 2 Heavy weapon squad w/ missile launcher
- 1 Heavy weapon squad w/ las canon
- 5 ratlings
- 3 commissars
- 1 Astropath/primaris psyker
- Sly Marbo
- 5 rough riders w/ meltas
- 2 x Company commander
- 1 Chimera
- 1 Hellounbd
- 1 Valkyria
- 1 Leman Russ
- 3 Scout sentinels w/ heavy flamers
HeavenLord wrote: Hi, I have the opportunity to buy an Astra Militarum army and i would like to have your advises to know if I can build a decent list with it (1000-1500 points range).
Here are the models:
- 6 x10 infantry with some guard w/ plamsa, flamers, grenade launchers
- 2x 10 Vétérans
- 2 Heavy weapon squad w/ missile launcher
- 1 Heavy weapon squad w/ las canon
- 5 ratlings
- 3 commissars
- 1 Astropath/primaris psyker
- Sly Marbo
- 5 rough riders w/ meltas
- 2 x Company commander
- 1 Chimera
- 1 Hellounbd
- 1 Valkyria
- 1 Leman Russ
- 3 Scout sentinels w/ heavy flamers
Thanks a lot guys !
This will be the core of an army. Most IG armies are built around a brigade detachment, so have 60 infantry is a great start. Oddly for an IG lot, there's only one heavy support tank, so you'll probably want to pick up some more heavy support such as a baslisk.
I'd guess this adds up to about 1000 points, and the only real duff units are the Valkyrie and chimera. Even they're not bad.
Polonius wrote: Rough Riders are still legal, and are perfectly fine. They're cheap, they outflank, and they have at least some punch. WS 4+ on a combat unit is ugly, but they can always take two plasma guns to provide a little surprise to backfield campers.
And hellhounds are better than "fine" in my experience. Yes, smart players will target them early to prevent mortal wounds in their lines, but that's also ranged anti-tank not aimed at your LRBTs or artillery.
I agree that guard are thin at Fast attack. We're the only army without a biker or jump pack unit. That said, we're also the army with probably the cheapest tax filler unit in sentinels.
Rough riders are most likely getting phased out next expansion because of GW's no models no rules policy. They don't even have models anyway so you need to convert. I would advise players to stay far away from them, because they aren't worth the effort if they are going to be completely invalidated in 2 years.
w1zard wrote: Rough riders are most likely getting phased out next expansion because of GW's no models no rules policy. They don't even have models anyway so you need to convert. I would advise players to stay far away from them, because they aren't worth the effort if they are going to be completely invalidated in 2 years.
To be fair, two years is a pretty long time to have an army given GW's typical release cycle. If you're afraid to invest in models because they might not be competitive in two years you're going to have a hard time playing the game at all.
Do we have any tactics to counter a Space Wolf stormwolf laden with wulfen and a few characters? I had a stormwolf fly up to my lines tonight and I had to shoot everything at the stormwolf to get it down and kill off the wulfen leaving three buff characters to run around and cause problems for another turn.
The battle cannon on Pask's tank + the hammer of sundrance on another Cadian Tank Commander, using Pound Them to Dust, Overlapping Fields of Fire, and the Relic of Lost Cadia (for reroll 1s to wound (probably not necessary)), kill it with just those 2 weapons on average.
Causalis wrote: I'm infiltrating this thread to gain knowledge for my GSC.
Quick question:
I'm looking for some long range firesupport against tanks. Are Basilisks any good?
I know the competative option for me would be to just go supreme command with 3 Tank Commanders.
But that's a bit cheesy for my taste, so I want to go with a Vanguard detachment with a Company Commander and 3 Basilisks.
Good idea? Or should I stick to the Russes?
With GSC you could be able to get away with just 3 normal russes. Playing cult, you usually have enough stuff in the enemy's face that they are less likely to pay attention to the tanks, and they output more firepower than the bassies
necron99 wrote: Do we have any tactics to counter a Space Wolf stormwolf laden with wulfen and a few characters? I had a stormwolf fly up to my lines tonight and I had to shoot everything at the stormwolf to get it down and kill off the wulfen leaving three buff characters to run around and cause problems for another turn.
Honestly, anyone who attempts to shove a flyer into our side of the board should be prepared to have a bad day. You MMM a squad of infantry or 2 and surround the flyer. Then you blow it the hell up and nothing can fit outside of it's base and less than 1" away from your troops. Congrats, your 80pts of guardsmen just "killed" hundreds of points of enemy assault units. Works every time.
Causalis wrote: I'm infiltrating this thread to gain knowledge for my GSC.
Quick question:
I'm looking for some long range firesupport against tanks. Are Basilisks any good?
I know the competative option for me would be to just go supreme command with 3 Tank Commanders.
But that's a bit cheesy for my taste, so I want to go with a Vanguard detachment with a Company Commander and 3 Basilisks.
Good idea? Or should I stick to the Russes?
The problem with GSC is they are mostly infantry based, and their organic vehicles are going to die to a stiff breeze. If you include something like a Leman Russ, ALL of the enemy's anti tank firepower is going to have nothing better to shoot at than that 1 tank. I like the artillery because at least they can hide out of LoS and GSC have plenty of screening and area denial to keep them relatively safe. And leman russes without regiment bonuses just aren't as good as pure IG tanks. So keep that in mind, as well.
Most competitive option for GSC is to take NO Imperial guard units...
GSC is in my opinion best played as full infantry. That way you totally deny your enemy the use of his AT weapons.
Unlike guard, the gsc actually have good AT infantry and can get to the cloxe proximity of the enemy very fast.
Unlike guard, gsc have automatic deep strike and bodyguard rules for all units and several characters who are either great in CC or have great boosting abilities for other units.
So the infantry horde with strong characters seems like the competitive way to go.
Colonel Cross wrote: Honestly, anyone who attempts to shove a flyer into our side of the board should be prepared to have a bad day. You MMM a squad of infantry or 2 and surround the flyer. Then you blow it the hell up and nothing can fit outside of it's base and less than 1" away from your troops. Congrats, your 80pts of guardsmen just "killed" hundreds of points of enemy assault units. Works every time.
Well the flyer will be more like 15" away from your front line rather than right in the middle. How far you can reach with those guardsmen?
Colonel Cross wrote: Honestly, anyone who attempts to shove a flyer into our side of the board should be prepared to have a bad day. You MMM a squad of infantry or 2 and surround the flyer. Then you blow it the hell up and nothing can fit outside of it's base and less than 1" away from your troops. Congrats, your 80pts of guardsmen just "killed" hundreds of points of enemy assault units. Works every time.
Well the flyer will be more like 15" away from your front line rather than right in the middle. How far you can reach with those guardsmen?
Up to 24" with move move move...
Automatically Appended Next Post: I run catachans as my main detachment but have recently succumbed to the dark/winning side by buying a castellan. I really had trouble with Tau last tournament (without a castellan). I was wondering whether it would benefit me to move the castellan up towards the Tau? Maybe even charge them in T2 or is this my catachan mindset effecting me.
Any thoughts/stratagies for taking on shooty armies would be appreciated.
Lothar wrote: Most competitive option for GSC is to take NO Imperial guard units...
GSC is in my opinion best played as full infantry. That way you totally deny your enemy the use of his AT weapons.
Unlike guard, the gsc actually have good AT infantry and can get to the cloxe proximity of the enemy very fast.
Unlike guard, gsc have automatic deep strike and bodyguard rules for all units and several characters who are either great in CC or have great boosting abilities for other units.
So the infantry horde with strong characters seems like the competitive way to go.
I agree that GSC is probably played best devoid of all vehicles. But I love the aesthetics of the Goliaths and the other vehicles so I'll play them.
However, I have to point out that closing the gap fast with the enemy is nothing special for an assault based army. Any such army can be in CC on Turn 2. GSC are actually a bit slow(er) when compared to stuff like Orks Evil Sunz which can reliably charge turn 1, whilst the Cult will have to wait for turn 2 to get the ambushers into combat.
The AT capabilities of the Cult are also almost all focused in melee units and the bit of AT shooting we have are mostly the Mining Lasers which have only 24" and are often out of range.
That's why I want Basilisks, so that I can start working on those enemy tanks from turn 1.
Someone also pointed out the Carnodon Tank from Forgeworld. Love the model so I ordered one.
I'll probably run a Spearhead detachment:
1x Tank Commander
2x Basilisks
1x Carnodon (either all Multilasers for 15 S6 shots to help remove screens or all Volkite to help threaten tanks and elite infantry)
Looking to add some tank commander fire support (battle cannons and plasma) and was looking over doctrines; I know catachan is the go-to for russes with Cadian being another option, but how does Vostroyan sound? 42” range plasma cannons give you some stand-off capability though at the obvious cost of firepower compared to other regiments, wondering what those with more experience think? I’m adding some to a Custodes bike list, my fiancé will be running some as part of pure AM.
I just don't think those 6" make up for the lack of innate re-roll # of shots ability. They order themselves to re-roll to-hit rolls of 1, so can even move 5" and still be fully functional, except for their sponsons.
If they are paired with Custodes, I imagine the enemy will have close range threats demanding AT attention anyway, so your tanks will be fine within their 36" threat range. Just my thoughts on it.
Plasma Cannon Sponsons in general lose a lot of appeal when you consider that Guard's most dangerous enemy, the one you should be tooling your list almost specifically to kill, is Eldar, and with frequent -1 and -2 to hit, overcharging plasma cannons is suicide.
Tallarn JSJ tanks are the best tank commanders. Other regiments give a modest firepower buff, Tallarn gives you a massive defensive buff that also helps you get better shots.
Peregrine wrote: Tallarn JSJ tanks are the best tank commanders. Other regiments give a modest firepower buff, Tallarn gives you a massive defensive buff that also helps you get better shots.
This. That ability to give the Tau and Eldar players a taste of their own medicine, but with Leman Russe's just cannot be understated. In the hands of a player who knows what they're doing, that flexibility can really shine.
With the ability of many lists out there to outright delete multiple tanks a turn, being able to pick your battles is a big deal.
MinscS2 wrote: Has anyone tried (and had any luck) with units of regular Ogryns?
I love my 9 Bullgryns, and now with the point-reduction in CA, I'm very tempted to obtain 9 of their less-armoured cousins as well.
At first glance, 216 pts for 9 Ogryns seems almost like a steal.
I'm pretty into this concept, but I haven't tried it. I'm also scheming to buy the $25 Nobz box and use the leftover guns and heads from my Bullgryn kits for some half-price Ogryns. So yes, please... anyone doing this?
MinscS2 wrote: Has anyone tried (and had any luck) with units of regular Ogryns?
I love my 9 Bullgryns, and now with the point-reduction in CA, I'm very tempted to obtain 9 of their less-armoured cousins as well.
At first glance, 216 pts for 9 Ogryns seems almost like a steal.
So we're talking 216 pts for 27 T5 wounds with a 5+ save. These models then put out essentially 27 s5 shots and then charge in for an additional 40 attacks that hit like heavy bolters. That's before a priest buff or anything obviously.
It definitely looks impressive, especially against enemy chaff or light infantry and vehicles. My one concern is how they're going to survive to get into a fight other than just raw wounds. Lots of weapons do 2-3 damage a hit and I worry you'll see them vaporize pretty quick. In addition stuff like bolters will chip wounds off faster than you think thanks to the awful 5+ save. You can take cover and pyschic barrier to get them up to a 3+ armor save, essentially making them space marines and that may do the trick.
9 might be enough to get them to survive crossing the table but what I'd really like to see is someone go full bone 'ead and bring 27 ogryn and see what happens, maybe even bullgryns too. 27 regular ogryn would be a threat few armies could ignore charging up the table. That much raw S5 attacks can bring down almost anything. You could bring a pure IG army with them and kit it a few ways to take advantage of that too. Melee Catachan mixed with them to just suckerpunch everyone using the ogryn as the first wave. Shock troops supported by a Cadian gunline to keep enemy infantry at Bay. A wall of meat and anti infantry to keep enemy infantry off a tank line while not being quite so vulnerable to bolters. List goes on and on. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a winning strat in there somewhere, question is just which list type and regiments benefit most from that kind of unit.
Peregrine wrote: Tallarn JSJ tanks are the best tank commanders. Other regiments give a modest firepower buff, Tallarn gives you a massive defensive buff that also helps you get better shots.
This. That ability to give the Tau and Eldar players a taste of their own medicine, but with Leman Russe's just cannot be understated. In the hands of a player who knows what they're doing, that flexibility can really shine.
With the ability of many lists out there to outright delete multiple tanks a turn, being able to pick your battles is a big deal.
Can you expand upon this. How is move shoot move that big of an advantage. I know if Flames of War it was a massive buff to the germans, but that is 15mm scale, with main guns at 24" range, and the ability to hide outside LoS by moving into woods, behind buildings, gaining cover more easily etc...
I am tempted to try this but feel the lack of cover for tanks, being as they need 50% obscure and in area tearrain, the massive range of most guns, especially anti tank being 48" essentially the entire table damn near, and the sheer amount of FP stuff can bring seems like it would be hard to utilize.
Don't get me wrong, I see the potential, but how exactly are you implementing this? What tricks, movement, combo, etc... are you using to make this work.
Peregrine wrote: Tallarn JSJ tanks are the best tank commanders. Other regiments give a modest firepower buff, Tallarn gives you a massive defensive buff that also helps you get better shots.
This. That ability to give the Tau and Eldar players a taste of their own medicine, but with Leman Russe's just cannot be understated. In the hands of a player who knows what they're doing, that flexibility can really shine.
With the ability of many lists out there to outright delete multiple tanks a turn, being able to pick your battles is a big deal.
Can you expand upon this. How is move shoot move that big of an advantage. I know if Flames of War it was a massive buff to the germans, but that is 15mm scale, with main guns at 24" range, and the ability to hide outside LoS by moving into woods, behind buildings, gaining cover more easily etc...
I am tempted to try this but feel the lack of cover for tanks, being as they need 50% obscure and in area tearrain, the massive range of most guns, especially anti tank being 48" essentially the entire table damn near, and the sheer amount of FP stuff can bring seems like it would be hard to utilize.
Don't get me wrong, I see the potential, but how exactly are you implementing this? What tricks, movement, combo, etc... are you using to make this work.
It's really only useful in ITC rules, where the first level of a ruin is considered blocking line of sight. So it doesn't matter if you can see me through a window in a building, the building blocks line of sight to my tank.
Cadian tank commanders also get significantly more than a "modest" firepower buff, being able to re-roll both dice for number of shots, and re-rolling 1's to hit (if stationary). The Tallarn are definitely more survivable, but I've re-rolled 4-5 shots into twice that enough that I really appreciate the Cadian tanks.
Horst wrote: It's really only useful in ITC rules, where the first level of a ruin is considered blocking line of sight.
I'm assuming you're using either the rule that terrain blocks LOS even if the model has small gaps or terrain that is solid walls because the 8th edition terrain rules are idiotic and unplayable otherwise. At this point this is an automatic assumption comparable to assuming that both players are building lists to the same point limit even though it isn't a strictly necessary part of matched play.
Cadian tank commanders also get significantly more than a "modest" firepower buff, being able to re-roll both dice for number of shots, and re-rolling 1's to hit (if stationary).
No, it's absolutely a modest firepower buff. All command tanks have the ability to re-roll 1s if you're stationary (and if you're moving, obviously), so all you're getting is the ability to re-roll the dice for number of shots. And that's not a huge increase in firepower. Even a true "roll twice, pick the highest" buff would only be a ~30% increase in firepower and you don't have that. You have to take the re-roll result even if it's worse than the original roll, which means you're only safely re-rolling 1s and almost never re-rolling a 3 or better. It's not nothing, but even using the Tallarn order as a purely offensive tool to line up better shots is probably going to give you about that much increase in firepower. And when you need to JSJ for defense and give yourself more shots over the full length of the game by staying alive, well, there's no comparison.
greyknight12 wrote: Looking to add some tank commander fire support (battle cannons and plasma) and was looking over doctrines; I know catachan is the go-to for russes with Cadian being another option, but how does Vostroyan sound? 42” range plasma cannons give you some stand-off capability though at the obvious cost of firepower compared to other regiments, wondering what those with more experience think? I’m adding some to a Custodes bike list, my fiancé will be running some as part of pure AM.
30" tank commander punishers are pretty good and the +1 to hit strat for (I think) only 1CP is pretty clutch. The reroll 1s order means it hits like pask. Cadian and catachan are better for the D6 (2D6)shot turrets. I would argue that if you're taking the vigalus artillery detachment then catachan basilisks would beat out battlecannon tanks.
It depends what else your army has. If the custodes bikes are armed with the salvo launchers then you have a pretty reasonable tank hunter (and good anti air) so the punishers ability to take on chaff compliments them well. However, if you're running hurricane launcher then you have chaff covered and the battlecannon/plasma Russes would be better (or as I said a basilisk).
Automatically Appended Next Post: I play in the LWG ITC tournament this weekend with a Catachan vigalus armtillery brigade containing 1 punisher tank commander 2 basilisks and a Knight super heavy detachment containing a Castellan(don't hate the player, hate the (META) game).
I finished 4-1 8th out of 58. Awesome tournament and well organised. The only game I lost was against a nurgle horde (3 x 30 plague bearers) as well as enough summoning points to bring another 2 x 30 tzeench deamons.
I'm going to tailor my list a bit more to be able to take on hordes so a Wyvern might be in order but the big issue was my inability to take out the special characters
I was wondering what peoples thoughts on Mordians were. I'm looking at creating a plasma wielding speacial weapons/command assassination squad supported by a platoon commander with the dagger of tusakh. The Mordian order allows rapid fire weapons to target characters. The special weapon plasma squad and platoon commander comes to 65 points and has 3 meat shields built in. The command squad version does have the BS3 but comes in at 88 points.
The other thing that appeals about the Mordian is their Heavy Weapon Mortar squads. The order that allow the weapon the fire again on a 6 is crazy with a 3 mortar squad. I run Yarrick to allow reroll 1s already and If you gave the reroll 1s to wound order you've the potential for a sick combo.
Finally the vehicle ability to overwatch on 5s if within 6" traditionally results in one unit taking a charge and then shock horror the 2nd vehicle within 6" getting tagged in cc. However, I find myself taking sentinels to fill out brigades anyway. Normally they're literally just a filler but if I kept them behind my punisher tank commander or (in future) Wyvern then this issue is removed and I end up getting a vehicle that, with the strat, overwatches on 4+.
Mordians aren't as strong as some of the other Regiments, but they have some awesome tricks up their sleeves. They can be built to have very little issues with morale, their overwatch bonus can really lay some surprise on charging Orks or other light armored stuff.
It's their order and stratagem where they shine though. Plasma vet squads shooting characters, volley firing mortar squads, and infantry only running away half the time if near the Warlord are all pretty great.
Horst wrote: It's really only useful in ITC rules, where the first level of a ruin is considered blocking line of sight.
I'm assuming you're using either the rule that terrain blocks LOS even if the model has small gaps or terrain that is solid walls because the 8th edition terrain rules are idiotic and unplayable otherwise. At this point this is an automatic assumption comparable to assuming that both players are building lists to the same point limit even though it isn't a strictly necessary part of matched play.
Cadian tank commanders also get significantly more than a "modest" firepower buff, being able to re-roll both dice for number of shots, and re-rolling 1's to hit (if stationary).
No, it's absolutely a modest firepower buff. All command tanks have the ability to re-roll 1s if you're stationary (and if you're moving, obviously), so all you're getting is the ability to re-roll the dice for number of shots. And that's not a huge increase in firepower. Even a true "roll twice, pick the highest" buff would only be a ~30% increase in firepower and you don't have that. You have to take the re-roll result even if it's worse than the original roll, which means you're only safely re-rolling 1s and almost never re-rolling a 3 or better. It's not nothing, but even using the Tallarn order as a purely offensive tool to line up better shots is probably going to give you about that much increase in firepower. And when you need to JSJ for defense and give yourself more shots over the full length of the game by staying alive, well, there's no comparison.
The real benefit of the re-roll on D6 though for Cadia is if you roll a statistically unlikely number for your first roll. It's happened in quite a few games... I roll a 1 and a 2 for my number of shots, re-roll both, and get a 7 or 8. It doesn't increase the average much, but it almost eliminates complete whiffs. Yes, it leaves my tank commanders exposed after firing, while a Tallarn commander can fall back to cover, but I'd still rather have that much stronger first punch. This may just be for my list though, a big component of it is a pair of Knights Gallant that get into the enemy's face. They usually draw a lot of fire, leaving the Tank Commanders relatively unmolested. Though in one or two games the Tank Commanders have been focused and killed, but then the Gallants just get in there and start smashing their way through the enemy.
I can see the value in the Tallarn ones, I think I just prefer Cadian rules.
Ya I think they could be fairly strong if played correctly. Currently I run Yarrick as well so thats reroll all 1s to hit (including overwatch) or ALL misses against orks.
I ran catachans in the tournament and they did pretty good but I'm always looking to tweak. I ran armigers with my knight to get the Super heavy detachment 3CP but they didn't shine.
I can definitely see the castellan Strats being nerf in the FAQ particularly the Raven, reroll 1s strat. As a result I'm half thinking of taking Bobby G in a separate super heavy auxiliary detachment. His reroll 1s for all Imperium would mean he could take the place of yarrick. A super heavy auxiliary detachment counts as being battle forged right? I know he wouldn't get the chapter rules but I think he'd still get the +3CP if he's made the warlord. The +3cp is a necessity with the rate at which I plow through Strats. Especially since I'll be spending 5 before the deployment even starts (1 for vigalus, 1 for Knights warlord trait, 1 for knight relic, 1 for AM relic (dagger so I can ambush my vets) and finally 1 +85CP for my assassin of choice.
Mmmm delicious soup...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CaptainO wrote: Ya I think they could be fairly strong if played correctly. Currently I run Yarrick as well so thats reroll all 1s to hit (including overwatch) or ALL misses against orks.
I ran catachans in the tournament and they did pretty good but I'm always looking to tweak. I ran armigers with my knight to get the Super heavy detachment 3CP but they didn't shine.
I can definitely see the castellan Strats being nerf in the FAQ particularly the Raven, reroll 1s strat. As a result I'm half thinking of taking Bobby G in a separate super heavy auxiliary detachment. His reroll 1s for all Imperium would mean he could take the place of yarrick. A super heavy auxiliary detachment counts as being battle forged right? I know he wouldn't get the chapter rules but I think he'd still get the +3CP if he's made the warlord. The +3cp is a necessity with the rate at which I plow through Strats. Especially since I'll be spending 5 before the deployment even starts (1 for vigalus, 1 for Knights warlord trait, 1 for knight relic, 1 for AM relic (dagger so I can ambush my vets) and finally 1 +85CP for my assassin of choice.
CaptainO wrote: The other thing that appeals about the Mordian is their Heavy Weapon Mortar squads. The order that allow the weapon the fire again on a 6 is crazy with a 3 mortar squad. I
Err, what? Either you are very confused here or I am.
CaptainO wrote: The other thing that appeals about the Mordian is their Heavy Weapon Mortar squads. The order that allow the weapon the fire again on a 6 is crazy with a 3 mortar squad. I
Err, what? Either you are very confused here or I am.
Volley fire is worded on such a way that on 6's to hit you can fire the weapon again... so every 6 to hit is another d6 shots.
Horst wrote: Volley fire is worded on such a way that on 6's to hit you can fire the weapon again... so every 6 to hit is another d6 shots.
That's a stratagem, not an order. And it sucks on mortars. On a 6 to hit you generate another 1.75 hits. For a full squad of mortars that's an average of 3.06 additional bolter hits for 1 CP. Or you could give that to an infantry squad with FRFSRF and get 6.6666 more lasgun hits, 13.3333 if you're within 12". Or you could spend that 1 CP on something else entirely. For example, re-rolling a 1 for damage on a lascannon is likely to have more of an impact on the game than those ~3 bolter hits. Maybe you throw it on mortars if you have plenty of CP and no better use for it, but I can't imagine making list building choices with the intent to use it.
Cadian tank commanders also get significantly more than a "modest" firepower buff, being able to re-roll both dice for number of shots, and re-rolling 1's to hit (if stationary). The Tallarn are definitely more survivable, but I've re-rolled 4-5 shots into twice that enough that I really appreciate the Cadian tanks.
If we are aren't taking into account stratagems then I feel Catachan tank commanders offer the best of both worlds, being able to naturally reroll shots on turret (AND sponson) and being able to move and order reroll 1s. The reason Cadian might be better if you factor in Overlapping Fields stratagem or vs chaos.
It's really only useful in ITC rules, where the first level of a ruin is considered blocking line of sight. So it doesn't matter if you can see me through a window in a building, the building blocks line of sight to my tank.
Cadian tank commanders also get significantly more than a "modest" firepower buff, being able to re-roll both dice for number of shots, and re-rolling 1's to hit (if stationary). The Tallarn are definitely more survivable, but I've re-rolled 4-5 shots into twice that enough that I really appreciate the Cadian tanks.
Or play on modern 40k terrain that's designed to ensure there's no stupid holes that make the terrain pieces worthless in 40k.
Just to clarify about the mordian strat, does EVERY 6 to hit allow firing the weapon again, or is it just one per weapon? I'd been rolling each lasgun individually (which was painful) to see if each generated a 6 to hit.
In any case the best target is a combined infantry squads with FRFSRF and if you're playing chaos, vengeance for cadia. I believe, on average, a full squad of lasguns will one-round a daemon prince with these buffs up haha (even if you're playing it the more conservative way)
DoomMouse wrote: Just to clarify about the mordian strat, does EVERY 6 to hit allow firing the weapon again, or is it just one per weapon? I'd been rolling each lasgun individually (which was painful) to see if each generated a 6 to hit.
In any case the best target is a combined infantry squads with FRFSRF and if you're playing chaos, vengeance for cadia. I believe, on average, a full squad of lasguns will one-round a daemon prince with these buffs up haha (even if you're playing it the more conservative way)
"Each time you make a hit roll of 6+ for a model in that unit that model can immediately shoot again with the same weapn at the same target"
It means a guards man could theoretically shoot 20 times with FRFSRF if he rolled 4 x 6s first time...
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DoomMouse wrote: Just to clarify about the mordian strat, does EVERY 6 to hit allow firing the weapon again, or is it just one per weapon? I'd been rolling each lasgun individually (which was painful) to see if each generated a 6 to hit.
In any case the best target is a combined infantry squads with FRFSRF and if you're playing chaos, vengeance for cadia. I believe, on average, a full squad of lasguns will one-round a daemon prince with these buffs up haha (even if you're playing it the more conservative way)
I love the idea of comboing it with Vengence for Cadia. It almost makes me want to take laurels of command so I can order FRFSRF AND the mordian strat to target characters.
Horst wrote: Volley fire is worded on such a way that on 6's to hit you can fire the weapon again... so every 6 to hit is another d6 shots.
That's a stratagem, not an order. And it sucks on mortars. On a 6 to hit you generate another 1.75 hits. For a full squad of mortars that's an average of 3.06 additional bolter hits for 1 CP. Or you could give that to an infantry squad with FRFSRF and get 6.6666 more lasgun hits, 13.3333 if you're within 12". Or you could spend that 1 CP on something else entirely. For example, re-rolling a 1 for damage on a lascannon is likely to have more of an impact on the game than those ~3 bolter hits. Maybe you throw it on mortars if you have plenty of CP and no better use for it, but I can't imagine making list building choices with the intent to use it.
Apologies it is a strat and not an order.
However I don't think its wasted on a mortar. The ability to hide behind LoS in ITC is invaluable and the 48" range is quality. The "theoretical" 108 shots is nothing to be sneezed at. If someone was within 12" of an infantry squad then yes I would use it on them but hopefully T1 they're not that close yet.
Good stuff, looks like it's even more powerful that I'd realised then! Shame -1 to hit kills it dead otherwise it's be great at smashing plaguebearer screens...
Also I start with 18CP with possible points regen from warlord so the odd 1Cp strat won't break me. I'm convinced Knight Strats are going to be nerfed so I'll end up have a lot more to spend. (the 3Cp normally spend on order of companions or the 3CP for rotate shields will have to be spent somewhere
I've set aside 85 points for an assassin too which could pay for itself CP wise with the 1CP strat that earns me 2CP for killing a character (3 if it was the warlord). Soften up the character with the "form firing squad" order and finish him off with a vindicares sniper round for an easy Headhunter +2 CP...
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DoomMouse wrote: Good stuff, looks like it's even more powerful that I'd realised then! Shame -1 to hit kills it dead otherwise it's be great at smashing plaguebearer screens...
Ya thats a good point. I played plague bearers blobs twice this weekend. Any -1 to hit for my army is a pain. I'm investigating the House Mortan Knight instead of Raven purely for the 1CP strat that ignores negatives to hit. It will allow at least some of my army to fire at full.
Looking to get back into the hobby slowly with Imperial Guard.
I wanted to start small (750pts is my aim) and then possibly expand into a larger army with Imperial Knights and/or Tanks rather than more blobs of troops. (Not a big fan of huge blobs of infantry).
My hope is to make an artillery-themed army that is still viable.
With the limited knowledge I have, this is something that I was able to draft up:
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment
Regimental Doctrine: Regiment: Cadian
+ HQ +
Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Laspistol,
Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Laspistol
Tank Commander [12 PL, 200pts]: Heavy Bolters, Lascannon
. Command Battle Tank: Battle Cannon
CaptainO wrote: The ability to hide behind LoS in ITC is invaluable and the 48" range is quality. The "theoretical" 108 shots is nothing to be sneezed at. If someone was within 12" of an infantry squad then yes I would use it on them but hopefully T1 they're not that close yet.
It absolutely is wasted on a mortar squad. Sure, you have 48" range on a cheap unit and that's good in ITC but mortars are good because they're cheap. They put out fairly low total firepower, you just get a squad of them for 30 points. So you're spending that CP to buff a 30-point objective camper instead of somewhere that it can have a much greater effect. And in the process you're making your 30-point unit no longer cheap.
And no, don't even bother talking about 108 shots. There is essentially zero chance of that ever happening. As I stated previously, the average result of spending that 1 CP is an additional ~3 STR 4 AP - hits. IOW, almost nothing.
I mean, to put this into context and consider this hypothetical stratagem:
Space Marine Fire Support - 1 CP
The might of the space marines crashes down upon the foes of the Imperial Guard, in the form of a single tactical marine and her boltgun arriving to attack targets marked by your forces. Use this stratagem after one of your heavy weapon squads armed with mortars finishes an attack. The space marine deals 1D6 automatic bolter hits (STR 4 AP -) to the target of that attack.
Would anyone use this stratagem? no. And this is a significantly better version of what you actually get, dealing an average of 3.5 bolter hits instead of 3.06.
I honestly doubted your math peregrine, because it seems like it should be more, so I ran through some very rough mental math, and yea... 10.5 shots yield maybe 2 6's to hit, which is 7 shots, which is 3.5 more hits. Kinda gakky. You're way better off with Cadian mortars, since take aim rerolls on 3 mortar squads give about twice that for no CP cost.
JNAProductions wrote: The odds of getting the maximum, which is actually 126 shots, is...
(1/6)^21, or .00000000000000456%.
That's percentage. Add two zeroes for the odds expressed as a regular number.
You are of course right 126 possible shots
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm take Bobby G for reroll 1s on effectively the entire army (including my knight and Vindicare assassin)
I'd also give them the reroll 1s to wound order.
I start with 18 CP so 1CP to give the mortars a few more shots doesn't break the bank. I'd definitely rather use the strat on a squad that can FRFSRF at 12" (which would hopefull be within 12" of Bobby G for reroll1s) but if I go first I might as well try an alpha strike to the max particularly if there are units our of LoS.
Can anyone confirm or deny that for the purposes of making Bobby G my warlord and gaining those extra 3 CP does an auxilary super heavy detachment count as battle forged. I get that other units don't get house/regiment/chapter benefits if they're in an auxillary super heavy detachment but is it at least battle forged.
CaptainO wrote: Can anyone confirm or deny that for the purposes of making Bobby G my warlord and gaining those extra 3 CP does an auxilary super heavy detachment count as battle forged. I get that other units don't get house/regiment/chapter benefits if they're in an auxillary super heavy detachment but is it at least battle forged.
Dynas wrote: What are some of a Pure Guard list best stratagems? What do you find yourself using the most? No space marines, or knights.
There aren't any. Guard Stratagems are almost as useless as Vanilla Marine ones. The sole good one is the vehicle overwatch one IMHO. Overlapping Fields of Fire can be helpful too I suppose.
Dynas wrote: What are some of a Pure Guard list best stratagems? What do you find yourself using the most? No space marines, or knights.
There aren't any. Guard Stratagems are almost as useless as Vanilla Marine ones. The sole good one is the vehicle overwatch one IMHO. Overlapping Fields of Fire can be helpful too I suppose.
I wouldn't say that, some of the Vigilus ones are also useful.
Dynas wrote: What are some of a Pure Guard list best stratagems? What do you find yourself using the most? No space marines, or knights.
There aren't any. Guard Stratagems are almost as useless as Vanilla Marine ones. The sole good one is the vehicle overwatch one IMHO. Overlapping Fields of Fire can be helpful too I suppose.
I wouldn't say that, some of the Vigilus ones are also useful.
In fairness, he said "Pure Guard", which excludes Vigilus.
Dynas wrote: What are some of a Pure Guard list best stratagems? What do you find yourself using the most? No space marines, or knights.
There aren't any. Guard Stratagems are almost as useless as Vanilla Marine ones. The sole good one is the vehicle overwatch one IMHO. Overlapping Fields of Fire can be helpful too I suppose.
I wouldn't say that, some of the Vigilus ones are also useful.
In fairness, he said "Pure Guard", which excludes Vigilus.
I would think that “pure guard codex” would exclude Vigilus, not just “pure guard.”
Dynas wrote: What are some of a Pure Guard list best stratagems? What do you find yourself using the most? No space marines, or knights.
There's a couple of ones I often find myself using in the right situation:
- Crush them on Baneblade-variants.
- Grenadiers, especially on Ogryns/Bullgryns.
- Jury Rigging.
- I.C. Armory.
- Command tank
- Inspired Tactics.
- Defensive Gunners.
- Take Cover.
- Vengeance for Cadia. (If up against Chaos.)
Admittedly very few of the guard strategems are game changing outside of overlapping fields. Maybe a basilisk firing twice. And as you mentioned, Vengance for Cadia against Chaos. The rest probably fall into the situational or quality of life category.
Yeah, its kind of a shame we can have tons of CP but not able to use them very well. I guess our great units make up for it. If we had the same units and, say, Ork level stratagems we would be bonkers broken.
Dynas wrote: What are some of a Pure Guard list best stratagems? What do you find yourself using the most? No space marines, or knights.
There's a couple of ones I often find myself using in the right situation:
- Crush them on Baneblade-variants.
- Grenadiers, especially on Ogryns/Bullgryns.
- Jury Rigging.
- I.C. Armory.
- Command tank
- Inspired Tactics.
- Defensive Gunners.
- Take Cover.
- Vengeance for Cadia. (If up against Chaos.)
Oh i like the Grenadiers for Bullgryns, im always doing nothing with them in the shooting phase.
Billagio wrote: Yeah, its kind of a shame we can have tons of CP but not able to use them very well. I guess our great units make up for it. If we had the same units and, say, Ork level stratagems we would be bonkers broken.
It kind of reaffirms the idea that GW intended Guard to be an allied army. They're perfectly designed for it.
Since vigilus came out I've been playing the fire twice strat and areal spotter on either my bassie or wyvern...so fire the big gun twice, reroll misses and no cover save - you bet! And if you're a wyvern reroll wounds. It's not cheap (4cp) but wow what a great first turn alpha strike...I also throw in the Vigilus relic that ignores cover Outside of that yeah nothing really shiny for us in the way of strats that make you go "omg this army is so broken when I play this one strat!"
Billagio wrote: Yeah, its kind of a shame we can have tons of CP but not able to use them very well. I guess our great units make up for it. If we had the same units and, say, Ork level stratagems we would be bonkers broken.
It kind of reaffirms the idea that GW intended Guard to be an allied army. They're perfectly designed for it.
Preemptive TL;DR just because we don't have insanely busted strategems doesn't mean ours aren't useful. Especially since we don't need them as a crutch to function like blood Angels or knights.
I don't feel that's the intent. Quite the opposite, I think IG is one of the only army's where strategems are probably working as intended. An army shouldn't need to rely solely on strategems to function, and they knew IG would have a ton of CP going in too. Instead of a few game breaking strategems *cough*most codexes* IG just has a ton of pretty good to decent strategems for a pure army, they're just not game changing in and of themselves. We don't have anything in the same ballpark as what knights get for example, but we dont really need it.
And that's ignoring the fact that our strategems really aren't bad if you know what you're doing. Yes, some like Fire on my Position or Preliminary Bombardment can be pretty meh, but seriously read most of our strategems and tell me most codexes wouldn't want them.
-Defensive Gunners -use it almost every game to stop a charge or even just intimidate someone into hanging back
-Aerial Spotter makes a Vigilus Wyvern insane and can be very powerful in smaller games
-Consolidate squads has a ton of utility when it comes to orders and abilities for dirt cheap and denying kill points
-Mobile Command Vehicle will be situational for certain armored lists and protecting commanders from being sniped
-Inspired Tactics is self explanatory
-Take Cover is still powerful and that's after it's been nerfed TWICE
-Grenadiers is bonkers on Demolition SWS's or Bullgryns and can be very good in niche situations where you need FRFSRF but need to pull another order
-Fight to the death is pretty much Insane Bravery for half the price, good for keeping a squad on objectives
-Vengence for Cadia is a giant middle finger to chaos
-Overlapping Fields of Fire - duh
-Volley Fire on the right squad, absolutely disgusting
-Firstborn Pride can be really powerful with tank commanders or even just helping mitigate eldar shenanigans
-Superior Intelligence situationally can save your bacon
-Ambush got nerfed twice but if the beta reserve rules get changed it'll be big just like it was pre Nerf. Yeah I can only outflank one tank commander/baneblade or 3 normal tanks with some infantry but if you can't find use for that you need some imagination
-Armored fist - right list, it has a place. Bare minimum you can use Bring it Down and reroll 1's to hit and wound or FRFSRF and reroll 1's.
-Command Reroll - you laugh but name one other army that can just recklessly spam this like we can.
-Prepared Positions - not useful against every army, but when it works its huge. Leman Russe's on a native 2+ save and an army of carapace armored guardsmen is a heck of a thing.
For the vast majority, it's no Order of Companions, but you guys need to remember 3 things.
1. All but one of those strategems cost less than 3 cp, and most cost only one,
2. We have the most CP of any army in the game. I may not have an order of companions level ability, but I'm not going to have my CP blown turn 1 and be majorly nerfed afterwards. I've had games where I was still blowing CP turn 7, and when the opponent has none to respond with even just rerolling a die or two can be big. Most armies are getting to the point where they need to plan their cp use out by turn just so they don't waste it. Meanwhile with guard we have a ton of wiggle room to use the odd reroll or opportunistic ability without wrecking our basic strategy.
3. Orders are pretty much strategems, except we can do as many as we want per turn and do each one multiple times. I mean think about it, Fix Bayonets in any other army costs 3cp and happens at the end of the fight phase. Move!Move!Move! Would easily be worth 2-3cp in most codexes, and most of the others either make perfect sense as a strategem or literally are strategems in other armies.
So no, we don't have anything insane like letting Ogryn fight twice in the fight phase, but do we really need it? Our strategems are very good for what we need and we're extremely fortunate that the vast majority of IG armies could lose strategems tomorrow and be mostly unaffected. Tell any other army they're losing their strategems and they'd have a heart attack. For almost every other army, strategems come in two flavors, crutch or completely useless. Many armies at the competitive level literally cannot function without them. Guard armies on the other hand like having strategems for flexibility and utility, but don't really rely on them much, aside from niche cases like Tallarn Shadowswords or Vigulus shenanigans. Don't get me wrong, there are IG lists that make very clever use of strategems to push their list that much harder. I just think it's a good thing we can make a list and not have to build it from the ground up cheesing strategems interactions in order to get by, especially in casual play.
Not counting the basic stratagems that everyone uses:
My IG have at least 10 stratagems that I would consider "useful but somewhat situational". Nothing even remotely broken or must-use.
My Thousand Sons and World Eaters have 1 stratagem that is downright broken, the rest are pointless or meh at best.
My Salamanders have 2 stratagems that I'd consider "useful but situational", with the rest being mostly pointless or extremely situational.
(Haven't played Eldar enough in 8th to rate their Stratagems.)
Out of the 4 armies I regularly play, I think that IG are in the best spot in regards to stratagems. They have no auto-use, nothing broken, *but* quite a few that are useful.
We shouldn't strive to be like other armies - other armies should strive to be like us. I hate the fact that my Thousand Sons/WE wants to use VotLW as often as possible and nothing else. It's super boring.
And yes, I'm aware that I'm writing essentially "I prefer X because it's not overpowered" in a tactica-thread on dakkadakka - where anything that won't win you tournaments is labeled as "useless" - so if you're in the WAAC-camp, go ahead and scoff at my opinion.
Maybe I missed it, why are you -1 CP? It looks like you got your warlord trait, but no free relic for your AM.
Pask looks like a miss here. His 2nd order is going to go to waste without a regular LR to order around. You could drop one TC to a LR and then you'd have some more points to play with.
Those guardsmen are going to go pretty quickly. Maybe find room for a few more squads or bring some more help, hwt with mortars
Lastly, the warden is not the most competitive choice. That's fine, and actually one of my favorite knights to bring. If you want competitive, bring a castellan or a crusader. If you want to stick with the warden, spend the 2 CP to give it a 4++ and either endless fury or the relic thunderstrike gaunlet. You'll also need a house, raven is the top competitive choice, but there is also hawkshroud, mortan, and taranis that offer good strats
Thx for your Feedback!
Regarding -1 CP: That was spend for the Special Detachment from Vigilus Defiant: Emperor’s Fist Tank Company. This is mainly for Pask because with the movement strata he can move up to 10” and can shot twice with the Gattling.
Regarding Pask: Yeah his second order will be not used but he is too strong, not to use.
Regarding guardsmen: Yeah, thy will die quickly but I hope that the Knight and Pask and the TC’s were enough distraction.
Regarding Knight: I have chosen the Warden because of points reason. In this tournament also only 1 LoW is allowed, so the Household choice only effect the Traits/Relics and the specific strata And I thing I will take Vulker because of the strata that any unmodified to hit of 6 gains 2 hits instead of 1.
Yeah I will spend the to 2Cps for Warlord Trait (Ion Bullwork) and the Relic (Endless Fury).
To get a Crusader in, I had to kick something, should I kick one TC?
But if I do this, then I’m afraid to have to less fire power on the table?
You have no ranged anti-tank, you're 100% anti-infantry. What do you do against other Knights? If your entire army is in position to shoot an enemy Knight, you can expect to deal ~17 wounds against it. Not enough. I'd swap all the Punisher cannons for Battle cannons.
You also have a serious lack of orders. Part of what makes Guard Infantry so good is the MOVE MOVE MOVE command and First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire command to make them perform way better than a 40pt unit normally would. I'd stick with Cadian or Tallarn so your commanders can issue orders. I'd probably take another Company Commander or two as well.
I'm also not sure if a Warden is the best Knight to compliment your force, and you don't specify what House. If you wanna stick with a Questoris Knight, a Krast Crusader w/ Headman's Mark and Ion Bulward would be a very good choice. Dropping Pask for a Conqueror (since you're full on tank commanders) would pay the difference.
@Maxamato - what's the point of taking the Vigilus detachment? You didn't take any bassies or wyverns to take advantage of the strats. You need to -1 one more CP for either the Vigilus detachment or the Super heavy detachment. Also I assume the 6 squads are there for screening? I just don't see them lasting very long and with an average 24" range on your weapons that require LOS I can see your tanks getting tied up pretty quickly. Pask and a buddy can be awesome but stop there and pickup some non LOS shooters. A company commander, platoon commander and an astropath can work wonders too, I mean I see you have 1 company commander but that;s not enough - all of which can be gotten for 70 some points.
@MrMoustaffa I couldn't agree more about your posting on strats/orders. I feel more and more like we don't carry around a suitcase with a 10-megaton warhead as much as we wear the bat-utility belt. I can't count the number of times I've used move-move-move on two units in order to wrap a flyer that foolishly flew into my midst thinking he'd unload next turn and wipe out all of my T3 dudes only to find out - TRAP! And FRSR on two units of infantry with an astropath nearby just make opponents cry. And now with Vigilus...it's not cheap but for 4CP you can fire your wyvern twice reroll hits and wounds without LOS is bonkers - and take the vigilus relic that let's you ignore cover on your wyverns and bassies...thing of beauty. But I digress. I love IG simply because we have no broken strats and now that CP regen is under control I don't see people playing IG as a 180pt tax.
I also play knights as allies and custodes as allies and I can't imagine playing them at all without their strats - they'd just fall apart or at least be far less useful.
The -1 CP is for the Vigalus tank specialist detachment.
Honestly I'd bin Pask and take another company commander as recommended. If you still want to make use of the 10" move and shoot strat it would still be pretty effective on one of your normal tank commanders and also you'd have a bit of redundancy in the event you lose one of them.
I know there is a temptation to tool up your tank commanders but remember that the can and will be targetted T1 so keeping them cheap is the order of the day. Losing the side sponsons and hunter killer missile as well as replacing pask with a company commander would give you points for a better knight.
If you are tallarn then a few plasma sentinels would up your anti tank capability for cheap. (they don't suffer the minus 1 when moving) At that stage you're on your way to a Brigade rather than a battalion so will have the CP to burn.
Have you considered Yarrick? His reroll 1s to hit would compensate for your loss in accuracy if you get rid of pask.
I can confirm that the FRFSRF combined with the Mordian exploding 6s is quality. Especially if your opponent leaves a character exposed.
I do miss the catachans reroll number of shots perk when it comes to basilisks though.
I'm currently running a Mordian Brigade, Bobby super heavy auxiliary detachment, a castellan super heavy auxiliary detachment and a Vidicare assassin (which can obviously be changed depending on the oppossition) The soupiest of soup but AM are still my largest detachment.
The reroll 1s from bobby g really helps the Vindicare and mean I don't have to stick with house Raven for the Castellan. I'm torn between House Krast for its awesome relic and House Mortan for its anti flyer strat. The reroll 1s 12" bubble means I was didn't have to take either harker or Yarrick.
Maybe its because I've been rolling poorly with the basilisk but I'm tempted to swap it out for a second wyvern if I stick with Mordian. It does leave me heavily reliant on the castellan and two squad of plasma special weapons squads for AT though.
Honestly unless the opponent has a super-heavy that needs to die, I wouldn't bother with Old Grudges as a trait, I'd take something like Grand Strategist instead.
Horst wrote: Honestly unless the opponent has a super-heavy that needs to die, I wouldn't bother with Old Grudges as a trait, I'd take something like Grand Strategist instead.
Agreed. But if im taking it to a tourney for ITC format, 5 games, I may get 1 or 2 knight list games given the current meta. But I would still want to pick a unit to maximize that. ALso, with 2ndaries for ITC, I would like to synergize it with whatever Kill X type of unit to get my max 4 points. I:E Reaper on a loota horde, or Gang Busters on Necron Destroyers.
Horst wrote: Honestly unless the opponent has a super-heavy that needs to die, I wouldn't bother with Old Grudges as a trait, I'd take something like Grand Strategist instead.
Agreed. But if im taking it to a tourney for ITC format, 5 games, I may get 1 or 2 knight list games given the current meta. But I would still want to pick a unit to maximize that. ALso, with 2ndaries for ITC, I would like to synergize it with whatever Kill X type of unit to get my max 4 points. I:E Reaper on a loota horde, or Gang Busters on Necron Destroyers.
ITC you can just swap traits out pre-game though. If you're not fighting a guy with an ideal target for Old Grudges, take Grand Strategist.
Horst wrote: Honestly unless the opponent has a super-heavy that needs to die, I wouldn't bother with Old Grudges as a trait, I'd take something like Grand Strategist instead.
Agreed. But if im taking it to a tourney for ITC format, 5 games, I may get 1 or 2 knight list games given the current meta. But I would still want to pick a unit to maximize that. ALso, with 2ndaries for ITC, I would like to synergize it with whatever Kill X type of unit to get my max 4 points. I:E Reaper on a loota horde, or Gang Busters on Necron Destroyers.
ITC you can just swap traits out pre-game though. If you're not fighting a guy with an ideal target for Old Grudges, take Grand Strategist.
Hmmm. I totally missed that. I think a went to a tourney and it was permanent for the whole tourney and had to be on the list. Good idea thought.
Horst wrote: Honestly unless the opponent has a super-heavy that needs to die, I wouldn't bother with Old Grudges as a trait, I'd take something like Grand Strategist instead.
Agreed. But if im taking it to a tourney for ITC format, 5 games, I may get 1 or 2 knight list games given the current meta. But I would still want to pick a unit to maximize that. ALso, with 2ndaries for ITC, I would like to synergize it with whatever Kill X type of unit to get my max 4 points. I:E Reaper on a loota horde, or Gang Busters on Necron Destroyers.
ITC you can just swap traits out pre-game though. If you're not fighting a guy with an ideal target for Old Grudges, take Grand Strategist.
Hmmm. I totally missed that. I think a went to a tourney and it was permanent for the whole tourney and had to be on the list. Good idea thought.
Yea, the ITC missions packet says you can pick warlord traits, relics, and psychic powers after you find out what your opponent is. I bring a pair of Knights Gallant, for example, and only pay the CP for a Paragon Gauntlet if I'm fighting other Knights. Really good rule IMO, lets you customize your force a bit based on the mission and opponent. You can do the same with the new Assassin rules... you pick the Assassin and pay the 1 CP during deployment, so you don't have to declare which assassin you're taking until after you know the mission and opponent type.
Standards in tournaments here. Only the warlord(identity) is fixed. Rest(including warlords traits) are swappable in game. They are written to lists as defaults so you don't have to be declaring everything every game(just changes to list).
tneva82 wrote: Standards in tournaments here. Only the warlord(identity) is fixed. Rest(including warlords traits) are swappable in game. They are written to lists as defaults so you don't have to be declaring everything every game(just changes to list).
I write my tournament lists out like worksheets, like this. Just fill it out and hand it to my opponent. Works pretty good.
BTW don't have vigilus book so it might be covered or maybe it's tournament specifics but whatabout the specialist detachments? Are they like strategems/traits/relics you can swap between games or are those set in stone for tournaments?
tneva82 wrote: BTW don't have vigilus book so it might be covered or maybe it's tournament specifics but whatabout the specialist detachments? Are they like strategems/traits/relics you can swap between games or are those set in stone for tournaments?
It would fall under something you can swap out, but when you're running a vigilus formation often your army is specifically built to make good use of it, so you wouldn't ever NOT take it. Like on my list above, I use a Vigilus formation and a Vigilus relic, and don't even bother listing them as optional, because under no situation ever would I choose to not take it.
tneva82 wrote: BTW don't have vigilus book so it might be covered or maybe it's tournament specifics but whatabout the specialist detachments? Are they like strategems/traits/relics you can swap between games or are those set in stone for tournaments?
It would fall under something you can swap out, but when you're running a vigilus formation often your army is specifically built to make good use of it, so you wouldn't ever NOT take it. Like on my list above, I use a Vigilus formation and a Vigilus relic, and don't even bother listing them as optional, because under no situation ever would I choose to not take it.
I am planning on running 3 Tank commanders this sat. Do you find the Vigilus Tank company is worth it? If so, what value are you using? I considered it but it looks a bit weak to me.
tneva82 wrote: BTW don't have vigilus book so it might be covered or maybe it's tournament specifics but whatabout the specialist detachments? Are they like strategems/traits/relics you can swap between games or are those set in stone for tournaments?
It would fall under something you can swap out, but when you're running a vigilus formation often your army is specifically built to make good use of it, so you wouldn't ever NOT take it. Like on my list above, I use a Vigilus formation and a Vigilus relic, and don't even bother listing them as optional, because under no situation ever would I choose to not take it.
Well for me primary use would be the souped up SAG for orks but that's 2 CP and orks are CP hungry so there are armies I could see myself using it, others less so. Not every army has targets worth enough to spend 2 of the precious CP's even if I have SAG in my list.
tneva82 wrote: BTW don't have vigilus book so it might be covered or maybe it's tournament specifics but whatabout the specialist detachments? Are they like strategems/traits/relics you can swap between games or are those set in stone for tournaments?
It would fall under something you can swap out, but when you're running a vigilus formation often your army is specifically built to make good use of it, so you wouldn't ever NOT take it. Like on my list above, I use a Vigilus formation and a Vigilus relic, and don't even bother listing them as optional, because under no situation ever would I choose to not take it.
I am planning on running 3 Tank commanders this sat. Do you find the Vigilus Tank company is worth it? If so, what value are you using? I considered it but it looks a bit weak to me.
The Vigilus Tank Company is worth it for the Relic Battle Cannon alone. The warlord trait is too situational to be worth it, and the stratagems are solidly meh. The ability to move 10" and still use grinding advance is potentially useful, but I generally have more important uses for my CP anyway. But that relic battle cannon... that's most definitely worth 1 CP. Especially since the other Guard relics are kind of meh. You don't need Kurovs AND Grand Strategist since you can only regen 1 CP per turn, and if you're playing vs Chaos you can always choose to pay 1 CP for the Relic of Lost Cadia. A flat 3 damage Battle Cannon though is absolutely fantastic on a tank commander though.
tneva82 wrote: BTW don't have vigilus book so it might be covered or maybe it's tournament specifics but whatabout the specialist detachments? Are they like strategems/traits/relics you can swap between games or are those set in stone for tournaments?
It would fall under something you can swap out, but when you're running a vigilus formation often your army is specifically built to make good use of it, so you wouldn't ever NOT take it. Like on my list above, I use a Vigilus formation and a Vigilus relic, and don't even bother listing them as optional, because under no situation ever would I choose to not take it.
I have yet to see an ITC tournament that doesnt require you to name and keep the same vigalus detachment throughout. Maybe with etc missions its different. You can change the traits and relics but specialist detachments have to be notified when you submit yoyr list pre tournament.
tneva82 wrote: BTW don't have vigilus book so it might be covered or maybe it's tournament specifics but whatabout the specialist detachments? Are they like strategems/traits/relics you can swap between games or are those set in stone for tournaments?
It would fall under something you can swap out, but when you're running a vigilus formation often your army is specifically built to make good use of it, so you wouldn't ever NOT take it. Like on my list above, I use a Vigilus formation and a Vigilus relic, and don't even bother listing them as optional, because under no situation ever would I choose to not take it.
I am planning on running 3 Tank commanders this sat. Do you find the Vigilus Tank company is worth it? If so, what value are you using? I considered it but it looks a bit weak to me.
The Vigilus Tank Company is worth it for the Relic Battle Cannon alone. The warlord trait is too situational to be worth it, and the stratagems are solidly meh. The ability to move 10" and still use grinding advance is potentially useful, but I generally have more important uses for my CP anyway. But that relic battle cannon... that's most definitely worth 1 CP. Especially since the other Guard relics are kind of meh. You don't need Kurovs AND Grand Strategist since you can only regen 1 CP per turn, and if you're playing vs Chaos you can always choose to pay 1 CP for the Relic of Lost Cadia. A flat 3 damage Battle Cannon though is absolutely fantastic on a tank commander though.
Boy howdy that relic is bad ass.
I ran against a triple knight list. The guy popped my 2 now relic tanks turn 1. I used a artemia hellhound did 2 wounds to tag a castellan. Overlapping fields, with old grudges and decided to pop smoke and shoot on the tank commander to keep him alive. The relic guy rolled 12 shots! He did not rotate Ion shields (underestimated the tank he said). All hit, hitting on 2's and reroll 1's he saved half. Did 18 damage. 3 baslisk did the final wounds. Damn that was glorious.!
Note, also fought a nother triple knight list game before this. I fluffed hard. My hellhound missed, and i had to shoot two basilisk before finally doing a wound on the knight to use overlapping fields of fire. He did rotate, when all was done I only did 5 wounds :(.
Statistical average for artemia hellhound, 3 basilisk, 3 lemans battle cannon, 1 with relic (on old grudges, cadain, overlapping fields is 27.5) wounds. That game did not go well.
Im looking at filling out a brigade. Has anyone had any luck with command squads of 4 equiped with 4 sniper rifles for elites. I run bobby g so theyd be hitting on bs3+ rerolling 1s to hit. Successful ways they've been employed are appreciated.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The 32 point price is their main selling point. Their ability to put mortal wounds on characters isnt too bad either.
CaptainO wrote: Im looking at filling out a brigade. Has anyone had any luck with command squads of 4 equiped with 4 sniper rifles for elites. I run bobby g so theyd be hitting on bs3+ rerolling 1s to hit. Successful ways they've been employed are appreciated.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The 32 point price is their main selling point. Their ability to put mortal wounds on characters isnt too bad either.
I'm actually looking at doing the exact same thing - like to the tune of 3 units of command squads with sniper rifles. I mean really...cadians rerolling 1's hitting on 3's and can take orders so you can order them to take aim so they reroll misses. For the cost of 1.5 lascannons per unit. That's gotta be awesome sauce, right?
Well, I assume you're taking 3 elite choices then to fill out the brigade. You gotta ask yourself, what would you rather have for that 32 points?
I have one slot reserved for an Astropath. In case the enemy is GSC with that Mental Onslaught trick, I need him and a Culexis to try to deny it so he doesn't just one shot my Knights and Tanks.
I have another slot reserved for a Platoon Commander w/ the Relic Dagger to outflank. He's been very useful in ITC missions to ensure I can score Recon, he just outflank and hides his squad in the corner.
Third slot... I can either do 1 (maybe 2 if I'm lucky) wounds per turn to a character, or I can take a techpriest, and heal 1-3 wounds to my tanks per turn. Since I rely on my vehicles for my ranged damage, I'd rather keep them alive instead of hoping I get lucky with mortal wounds on characters.
oh yeah I agree with you on that...I'm running a battalion. Not so sure how useful they would be in a brigade. Astropath's and platoon commanders are a must include for me.
Although it's just 4 points, command squads are in a weird spot right now since RAW it seems they didn't go down to 5 ppm like other veterans. Hopefully a sniper squad will be 28 points soon.
Have you guys seen lists of 250+ models? Can they be competitive? (disregarding the time factor) I would like to play an all infantry list. But Scions might be the way to go.
Horst wrote: Well, I assume you're taking 3 elite choices then to fill out the brigade. You gotta ask yourself, what would you rather have for that 32 points?
I have one slot reserved for an Astropath. In case the enemy is GSC with that Mental Onslaught trick, I need him and a Culexis to try to deny it so he doesn't just one shot my Knights and Tanks.
I have another slot reserved for a Platoon Commander w/ the Relic Dagger to outflank. He's been very useful in ITC missions to ensure I can score Recon, he just outflank and hides his squad in the corner.
Third slot... I can either do 1 (maybe 2 if I'm lucky) wounds per turn to a character, or I can take a techpriest, and heal 1-3 wounds to my tanks per turn. Since I rely on my vehicles for my ranged damage, I'd rather keep them alive instead of hoping I get lucky with mortal wounds on characters.
I'm using one of my company commanders to ambush a special weapons squad of 3 x plasma (I'm currently running Mordian so these guys can pop up back field and snipe characters with their plasma guns) rather than a platoon commander.
Astropath or enginrseer are interesting alternatives especially with my current list. What psychic power do you take with the astropath? Honestly I effectively forgoe the psychic phase. My allies are Bobby G, a knight and an assassin. The culexus is effectively my only form of defence currently. The GSC sniper that can force perils on psychics almost counters the benefit of bringing the astropath. I've never ran an enginseer. Being honest very rarely are my vehicles left with wounds to heal. In ITC if you're shooting at a vehicle you might as well kill it in order to get points/Big game hunter.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, as per the rules it appears the astropath would have to subtract 2 from its cast and deny rolls if its within 18" of the culexus...
26pt astropath with psychic maelstrom is one if the best buys in the whole codex. Often it just shaves a few wounds off knights it other heavies, but occasionally you roll well and one shot the enemy's warlord or can just get him in range to pick off the last wound or two off an important character.
Plus his denial can be game changing against a key power (and can be a good use of a CP reroll)
If I was playing against a psychic heavy army I would be taking a Culexus. Both the Culexus and Astropath would need to be near the front/within range of the enemy Psychic to be effective.The astropaths ability to cast smite is completely removed if within 18" of the Culexus and his deny is also compromised and the chance of getting 9+ to get off Maelstrom is pretty slim.
I do like the idea of an astropath with maelstrom as anti knight. I do have a castellan for that.
On a completely different note, can I confirm that if a Wyvern is charged from behind cover it can still overwatch as it does not require LoS to shoot. I get the heavy bolter wouldn't be able to overwatch but 4d6 shots hitting on 4+ in overwatch as Mordians with the Overwatch strat. They'd also get to reroll 1s if within 12" of my Bobby G...
Mental Onslaught can 1 shot a Knight if he stacks leadership correctly. It's absolutely imperative that you have an answer for this trick, or you could be losing a Knight, or at the very least taking 10+ mortal wounds on it. That's the entire reason I have an Astropath in there. Yes, you'd need to deny on a -2 usually, but he's at -2 to cast as well, so it's an even playing field there. Ideally he fails to get the power off at all, but I still want to be able to try to deny it too. The fact that the Astropath can do a few mortal wounds through Maelstrom if you're not facing GSC and not using a Culexis means he's not useless in other situations, which is an added bonus.
You've probably got a point with regards leaving myself without a single deny the witch. How high can a gsc's leadership be buffed?
Automatically Appended Next Post: The presence of the command squad with snipers could target the psychic before he gets into range. Of course as a gsc no doubt the psychic can be deep striked. I'm really digging using the Vindicare combo'd with Bobby g. along with the Mordian orders, vindicares snipers, castellans shield breakers and the snipers the more characters the enemy has the better for me. It really is about style of play. I (somewhat foolishly) pride myself in ignoring the psychic phase. Snipe the witch etc...
CaptainO wrote: You've probably got a point with regards leaving myself without a single deny the witch. How high can a gsc's leadership be buffed?
It's easy for him to get a Patriarch to LD13 without psychic powers, it requires a specific warlord trait / relic / buff unit combination to do so though. However, at LD 13 vs an LD 9 Knight, he will deal an average of 10 mortal wounds. If he can cast a single -1 LD power to the Knight, that doubles to average 20 mortal wounds.
/u/Caridor on reddit ran through 2000 simulations of this power, and got these results, with the left column being the leadership differential between the caster and the target.
The whole thread here is very informative. Point is, Astropaths are decently useful anyway, as are Assassins, so taking both seems like an absolute requirement in case you face this. The fact that they're useful in every other matchup makes them even more must-take IMO, since you're not really at a disadvantage ever having an extra Assassin or Astropath. You just need to plan your list with them.
I'm after reading about the onslaught titan killing ability on 1d4chan. No doubt it has huge potential. Having the astropath there definitely gives an additional barrier to the gsc player getting it off but I honestly think removing supporting characters using snipers/sniper rules might be more efficient.
Reading up on the Sanctus I can't help but feel that an astropath turns into a grenade without a pin in my own lines. I know that he'd be a target priority for me if I was a GSC.
As I said I've an aversion to witches. I'd love to hear how anyone got on against GSC.
CaptainO wrote: You've probably got a point with regards leaving myself without a single deny the witch. How high can a gsc's leadership be buffed?
It's easy for him to get a Patriarch to LD13 without psychic powers, it requires a specific warlord trait / relic / buff unit combination to do so though. However, at LD 13 vs an LD 9 Knight, he will deal an average of 10 mortal wounds. If he can cast a single -1 LD power to the Knight, that doubles to average 20 mortal wounds.
/u/Caridor on reddit ran through 2000 simulations of this power, and got these results, with the left column being the leadership differential between the caster and the target.
The whole thread here is very informative. Point is, Astropaths are decently useful anyway, as are Assassins, so taking both seems like an absolute requirement in case you face this. The fact that they're useful in every other matchup makes them even more must-take IMO, since you're not really at a disadvantage ever having an extra Assassin or Astropath. You just need to plan your list with them.
Thanks for that. I'll defo give it a look. Any idea what the range of this deathstar is. Bubble wrapping my knight is even more important than ever.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thats a really good read. The Patriarch will have a big target painted on his head. Shield breaker missile down his gullet followed by a vindicare (If the vindicare assassin is the one that kills him then I get back 2CP reducing the 3CP cost of using the shield breaker strat)
the Sanctus is scary, but I'd still try to keep the Astropath just out of line of sight, so he can protect my tanks / knights and at least try to deny that. Having a Knight or a Tank Commander die to a psychic power without any defense would just be frustrating.
Horst wrote: the Sanctus is scary, but I'd still try to keep the Astropath just out of line of sight, so he can protect my tanks / knights and at least try to deny that. Having a Knight or a Tank Commander die to a psychic power without any defense would just be frustrating.
Ya its definitely something ill have to consider.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lothar wrote: Carefull with trying to snipe GSC. All of their infantry are basically bodyguards...
Effectively a 4+ fnp. My 2 wyverns are going to have their work cut out for them removing all that chaff.
Pask with 298 Hunter Killer Missiles is the way to go.
But yeah, the Leman Russ is not bad, it's one of the best vehicles in the game. It's just that Tank Commanders and Castellans exist to overshadow that.
BaconCatBug wrote: Pask with 298 Hunter Killer Missiles is the way to go.
But yeah, the Leman Russ is not bad, it's one of the best vehicles in the game. It's just that Tank Commanders and Castellans exist to overshadow that.
That's true. Conquerors are actually still pretty good. I'm kind of toying with the idea of taking a Spearhead of Catachan tanks, 2 Tank Commanders and 3 Conquerors. Only 800 ish points, and packs a truly punishing amount of firepower.
My Leman Russes are the workhorses in my army - but then I play Catachan which increases their reliability by like 10000%.
Hearing someone state that Leman Russes are "bad...really really bad" feels totally alien to me, but then I don't play in a Castellan-heavy meta.
Bringing all my 5 Leman Russes (2 TC's in Executioner/Punisher, 2 battle tanks and 1 demolisher) to the table is probably the cheesiest thing I can do, especially if they're backed up by some artillery and hellhounds/dual heavy flamer chimeras.
While we are talking about Russes.
Do You use Tech Priests? In order to grinding advance one will not move his Russes more than 6' anyway so techpriests can easily catch up. Them being characters provides also survivability. They cost 30 pts now for d3 wounds per turn healed.
Usually I put tech priests next to artillery but was thinking about more tank mechanic approach
Multiple Leman russes are just far too easy for a castellan to destroy. Even if you roll awesomely then a mechanicus Castellan will get at least two turns of shooting on full tier (for now at least) which could easily be 6 dead tanks.
If you play in friendly games they're cool. In competitive they just can't compete against Knights. If you were taking them as Brood brothers the "cancel strat" would actually combo well with Leman Russes shooting at a Castellan.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I got my a** handed to me by a tau player last night. Find out the rapid fire range for their fire warriors and then stay out of it!!!!
Now I'll admit I did the exact wrong thing (moved towards him) but in one turn he killed: 1 castellan, 1 tank commander, 1 wyvern, 20 infantry, an astro path, a company commander and bobby G. Seriously he killed like 1400 points in 1 turn.
Lesson learned. I should have worked out the rapid fire range (including move and advance as I think he has an ability that allow shooting after advancing) and kept everything behind that. Imperium definitely has Tau for range and worst case scenario I could have ran my infantry up to objectives with move move move. If I was out of range of t1 shooting, letting him go first probably would have been a good idea as it would allow me to steal "hold more" at the end of each turn (we were playing ITC.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Punisher tank commander did badly against them as it meant he had to finish within 24" after firing.
I ran a pure AM list against Knights. I had 3 Tank Commanders, all with battle cannon, 1 with the relic, and then 3 baslisk. I usually lose 1 tank a turn plus wounds on another one from the knight castallen.
The Vigilus Battle cannon relic is worth taking.
Also, I find that if I go first, its better to use the Shoot and Smoke order turn 1, even though you want to go first and use the cadian order because the -1 really makes the Castellan think twice about the overcharged cawls wrath.
I had no problem paying the original price for tank commanders so I would take a system where Russes and commanders actually compliment each other (like they should have in the first place) in a heartbeat. Instead we have the current system where people just pay a little extra for the one that shoots better and forget about the other one.
A bodyguard rule alone would likely make up for the price the difference. Tank commanders and especially Pask are usually among the highest priority targets in a guard army. Letting some cheaper tanks (who would also have access to orders) share the load would be very strong.
Gnollu wrote: While we are talking about Russes.
Do You use Tech Priests? In order to grinding advance one will not move his Russes more than 6' anyway so techpriests can easily catch up. Them being characters provides also survivability. They cost 30 pts now for d3 wounds per turn healed.
Usually I put tech priests next to artillery but was thinking about more tank mechanic approach
My current list is an Guard / Knights Hybrid, with a Guard Brigade. I do take a techpriest, and he stays with the Tank Commanders. I've got 2 Tank Commanders and 2 Knights Gallant, and usually outflank one of the Knights. In most games I've played, the Castellan will try to gun down my Gallant on the table first, but he has a 3++ save vs ranged fire, so I don't usually take that much damage. I have played one or two rough games where they go for my Tank Commanders first with the Castellan, but that usually allows my Gallants a turn to get in close, and then they rip the donkey-cave out of a Castellan through it's mouth.
I've been playing in a 1k patrol only tournie at my FLGS and have found Pask and a Conqueror to be really brutal. At 1K we're playing on 4x4 tables so it's pretty easy to get into that 24" sweet spot which you want to do with pasks gattling cannon and the counquerors battle cannon. Yeah it's situational based on what type of game you're playing. At 2k I'm running no russes :( Just the usual Castellan, lots of bodies to gum up the works, some bassies, astropaths, primaris psykers, company commanders, platoon commanders and custodes shield captains. I really do love my little 1K list though. Took two games at the last tournie to get my mojo going but once I got that happening I tabled my opponents in the next two games. Definitely learned a lot about GSC snipers and Thousand Son psyker sniping...need to hide my characters better.
I think it depends on the points and tournament format. If you're talking 2K - no I don't think so...go buy a Castellan. I've been playing in a monthly 1k patrol only tournament format with decent results. You'd need to go out and buy a pair of bassies and a astropath to do something similar (not exact - I had pask with the gattling cannon and a conqueror russ but you can always proxy stuff). I tend to start out small with my armies and just build up over time. I started guard, necrons and tau back in 5th so I have a ton of them. I just started doing chaos towards the end of 6th/7th and with a 1/2 a shadowspear box under my wing I can probably field a decent 2k CSM list.
Hi. I am considdering some brood brothers for a complete tyranid, GSC and broodbrothers soup. I like the look of the tanks as the other two factions do not really have them. Inspiered by the missioms on SC2 where terrans and zerg co-operate. (I suppose GSC are coruptet terans but with less tentacles.)
How does the math hammer and tactical advantages checknout on:
Tank commander.
Basilisk
Hydra
Wyvern
Manticore
Hellhound
Heavy weapon teams, mortar or lascannon.
Codex flyer.
Hellhound
I want to ally them with my Deathwatch and a Knight (Crusader/Gallant).
Is it best to go for the „stormtroopers“ regiment or just play them in regular cadia/catachan battalions (together with the loyal 32). How about the size of the squad? MSU with 2x plasma? Big squads with 4x plasma? Only troop squads with plasma or should I go for the command squad with only 4x plasma?
CKO wrote: Tallarn models can advance and still shoot any weapon but is it at a penalty? For example do infantry squads that advance lasguns hit on a 5+?
Nope. Assault weapons in Tallarn does not have penalty neither
Speaking of scions, forgive me but I didn't know where else to ask this question, but in terms of extra plasma guns, where would you guys recommend me buying bits from? I need about 6-8 more.
Robcio wrote: Speaking of scions, forgive me but I didn't know where else to ask this question, but in terms of extra plasma guns, where would you guys recommend me buying bits from? I need about 6-8 more.
Bits are hard as heck to come by for that. You can buy plasma guns on a sprue from GW but then you have to figure out how to get the little guys to hold them. Another option is to go buy a smooth-on kit and make/pour your own molds of the gun arm and the pointy fingered arm. Back when plasma guns were only 7pts for guard I know someone who built out 4 scion command squads with plasma guns in each squad using this approach. I think the smooth-on kit was like $80 and he still had a ton left over to make additional small molds.
Robcio wrote: Speaking of scions, forgive me but I didn't know where else to ask this question, but in terms of extra plasma guns, where would you guys recommend me buying bits from? I need about 6-8 more.
Bits are hard as heck to come by for that. You can buy plasma guns on a sprue from GW but then you have to figure out how to get the little guys to hold them. Another option is to go buy a smooth-on kit and make/pour your own molds of the gun arm and the pointy fingered arm. Back when plasma guns were only 7pts for guard I know someone who built out 4 scion command squads with plasma guns in each squad using this approach. I think the smooth-on kit was like $80 and he still had a ton left over to make additional small molds.
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Space-Marine-Plasma-Guns or search Ebay for similar Marine plasmas (should be some like this in the Sternguard and Tac squad boxes, but they tend to run 2.00-3.00 per gun before shipping, worth it to check though because sometimes someone is offloading them on the cheap).
Cut away the Space Marine hand from the plasma gun and cut away the flamer/grenade launcher from the Scion arms. Attach plasma gun to Scion arm and you now have three poses for your plasma gunners. Looks great, super easy, and doesn't break the wallet.
Robcio wrote: Speaking of scions, forgive me but I didn't know where else to ask this question, but in terms of extra plasma guns, where would you guys recommend me buying bits from? I need about 6-8 more.
Depends how you're modeling your Scions. I'm using Kasrkin models for them, so I can just buy Cadian Hostile Environment Plasma Gunner torsos from Forgeworld, and they work great for counts-as Scion Plasma Gunners.
Chris521 wrote: I had no problem paying the original price for tank commanders so I would take a system where Russes and commanders actually compliment each other (like they should have in the first place) in a heartbeat. Instead we have the current system where people just pay a little extra for the one that shoots better and forget about the other one.
A bodyguard rule alone would likely make up for the price the difference. Tank commanders and especially Pask are usually among the highest priority targets in a guard army. Letting some cheaper tanks (who would also have access to orders) share the load would be very strong.
Depending on the tank set ups in question you can run multiple tank commanders with the regular tanks getting benefit of their orders usually. It does also factor in the doctrine.
Like if you run cadian and can set up good lines of fire, just keep the commanders stationary for the native re roll ones and the re roll ones for the standard Russ with them. Have the commanders using a Russ variant that doesn't need to worry of random shots, like say a punisher, could run an exterminator but I know that isn't the classic choice or even a vanquisher which I know is bleh but let's just assume you want to live dangerously. ( I usually always bring the punishers )
Then use the tank orders on the stock Russ with battle cannon for pound them to dust ( the cadian specific tank orders to make them like cadian/catachan cross breeds )
It's not going to blow anyones socks off but for your standard casual/competitive game it usually does good work for me.
Have your infantry screen out and grab objectives under the watchful eyes of the big guns with arty back up. It works well enough and I think goes with what you're saying with using the tank commanders more as they you feel they should be used. Though I never had an issue with tanks commanders ordering them selves as I always saw it as the commander ordering his crew to fire better or personally directing their attentions as opposed to just being veterans. Though tank commanders are about the best new thing in the guard book that started in 6th ed/ late 5th ed.
Niiai wrote: Hi. I am considdering some brood brothers for a complete tyranid, GSC and broodbrothers soup. I like the look of the tanks as the other two factions do not really have them. Inspiered by the missioms on SC2 where terrans and zerg co-operate. (I suppose GSC are coruptet terans but with less tentacles.)
How does the math hammer and tactical advantages checknout on:
Tank commander.
Basilisk
Hydra
Wyvern
Manticore
Hellhound
Heavy weapon teams, mortar or lascannon.
Codex flyer.
Hellhound
I don't know enough about GSC to say definitively (and the information I look up online is typically a conflicting mix of how they operated between codex, index and 7th so I'm not going to try) but...
Not having a regimental doctrine does hurt their overall effectiveness but you'll feel it more in the vehicles that are get the most bang out of it - GSC Leman Russes in particular will feel a lot worse than their Imperial counterparts but stuff like the mortar or artillery pieces can be as good as those with a Regimental Doctrine that doesn't really fit their function. The latter you can make up the difference with the benefits of being able to ally in tyranids, the former will have trouble competing regardless.
That said - can Brood Brother's be set up using the GSC ambush mechanic? That would open up said vehicles to a Tallarn style niche which hellhounds and properly kitted russes could make use of.
Niiai wrote: Hi. I am considdering some brood brothers for a complete tyranid, GSC and broodbrothers soup. I like the look of the tanks as the other two factions do not really have them. Inspiered by the missioms on SC2 where terrans and zerg co-operate. (I suppose GSC are coruptet terans but with less tentacles.)
How does the math hammer and tactical advantages checknout on:
Tank commander. Basilisk Hydra Wyvern Manticore Hellhound Heavy weapon teams, mortar or lascannon. Codex flyer. Hellhound
Out of your list for a simple answer (in my opinion as a guard and GSC player)
Tank commander - yes, works OK without doctrines. You should probably take three if any though. Basilisk/manticore (they essentially do the same thing) - maybe. A bit meh without doctrines. Does help out against units far in your opponents backfield that cult-ambushing units can't touch Hydra - not awful but a bit too situational for most. Again you'd need several if any at all, or against a flyer army one or two hydras will just get shot dead first Wyvern - Not good, as GSC are good at killing infantry, and you lose access to the vigilus formation by going GSC. I'd not bother Hellhound - I've never been a huge fan of these in general. Feel they're a bit meh, and worse without the catachan doctrine HWTs - mortars definite yes. They're still some of the most efficient firepower in the game and they're cheaper than the mortars in the GSC codex. Lascannons, no. Too fragile for expensive guns and only hit on 4s at best anyway. Flyer - Pretty weak in or out of guard. Not sure you can even take it if as it's aeronautica imperialis I think?
I personally only run mortars in a guard/cult list out of your selection. I think tank commanders could work pretty well too though. Having a punchy assault threat with the GSC might give them a bit more breathing space to do their thing.
That's funny, I find the hellhound to be one of the best units in the guard book and one of the only things worth taking for GSC besides tank commanders. With track guards they basically don't degrade with an amazing weapon and when they explode they can win games.
Somebody ran the numbers on russes vs tyranid units, and I do belive the tyranids came out better damage per points. Of course the russ is T8 and 3+. I do not remember the math and it was before chapter aproved 2018, so the math might change.
I find it a bitt expsensive to buy a new codex if all I use is a russ that competes vs tyranid monsters, and mortars that are 3 or 6 points cheaper then the GSC mortars.
The Hellhound sounds interesting though, although it apears the jury is out on this. I would imagine GSC could be good to suplement a tyranid monster list. The bulldoser goliath is very good in mellee. Although the mathhammer puts it close to a melee distraction carnifex.
Carbifexes, hive tyrants, buldoser goliath and leman russes and hellhounds. Sounds cool. Mortars sounds like good screening units. GSC can use some models that can charge from reserves. I need to think on this.
Red Corsair wrote: That's funny, I find the hellhound to be one of the best units in the guard book and one of the only things worth taking for GSC besides tank commanders. With track guards they basically don't degrade with an amazing weapon and when they explode they can win games.
I have seen a lot of people take them. Maybe I'm just using them wrong. I really liked the FW artemia when it was dirt cheap (mainly the explodes for D6MW part!). Just feel like regular hellhounds are a bit too pricey to suicide away and won't make their points back from shooting very quickly (at least compared to other options)
I haven't played 40k in sometime but I'm looking to get back into it. I used to field a 5th/6th Edition Mechanised Guard Army so I have been looking into what it would take to update it to 8th. From what I have gathered so far:
- Scoring objectives rather than tabling your opponent appears to be key.
- If I want to play a mechanised list that can remain mobile and shoot it seems I'm stuck with Tallarn or Catachan.
- The cost drop to Chimeras in the recent FAQ seems to make them ok. They are atleast very tough for objective camping combined with 40pts guard.
- CP is critical.
- Leman Russ tank commanders, Basilisks & Hellhound variants all seem strong.
So gathering all that together I currently intend to field
IG - 2,000pts.
Catachan
Full Brigade
HQ - 439
Tank Commander - 182
Battlecannon
Lascannon Hull
Tank Commander - 182
Battlecannon
Lascannon Hull
Iron Hand Stracken - 75
Troops - 804
Infantry Squad 10man - 46
Flamer
Chimera - Transport - 88
Heavy Flamer Turret
Heavy Flamer Hull
Infantry Squad 10man - 46
Flamer
Chimera - Transport - 88
Heavy Flamer Turret
Heavy Flamer Hull
Infantry Squad 10man - 46
Flamer
Chimera - Transport - 88
Heavy Flamer Turret
Heavy Flamer Hull
Infantry Squad 10man - 46
Flamer
Chimera - Transport - 88
Heavy Flamer Turret
Heavy Flamer Hull
Infantry Squad 10man - 46
Flamer
Chimera - Transport - 88
Heavy Flamer Turret
Heavy Flamer Hull
Infantry Squad 10man - 46
Flamer
Chimera - Transport - 88
Heavy Flamer Turret
Heavy Flamer Hull
Elites - 90
Harker - 50
Tech Priest Enginseer - 30
Tech Priest Enginseer - 30
Fast Attack - 323[b]
Hellhound - 107
Inferno Cannon
Heavy Flamer
Devil Dog - 108
Melta Cannon
Multi Melta
Devil Dog - 108
Melta Cannon
Multi Melta
Heavy Support - 324
Basilisk - 108
Heavy Bolter
Basilisk - 108
Heavy Bolter
Basilisk - 108
Heavy Bolter
1) List fields 13 Heavy Flamers, 3 Earth Shaker Cannons, 2 Battle Cannons, 2 Melta Cannons, 1 Inferno Cannon on Vehicles so I should get use out of the Catachan Regiment.
2) The Troops in Chimeras are mainly to throw there bodies at objectives. If the enemy wants to shoot them to stop them getting into flamer range/grabbing objectives they are welcome to with 60 T7 3+ saves and then 60 guardsmens bodies to get through.
3) My Leman Russ Tank Commander models are Mars Alpha pattern with Lascannon hulls. I like the models and think lascannon cost is ok on Tank Commander.
4) For the elites Harker is there to boost the Artillery/Leman Russ/Devil dogs. Enginseers to pay the formation tax and they should have plenty of targets to heal.
5) I am not sure of the Hellhound/Devil dog split or how to configure the hulls. I suspect I meant to go 3x Devildog c/w Hull Heavy Flamer in this list but plan to try them all out.
6) Iron Hand Stracken seems a reasonable way of rounding out the HQ and providing some orders + counter assault potential. I would of liked Ogyrns but points don't stretch that far.
7) I've probably cocked up somewhere since this is the first list I have made in 8th.
Just one point - if you can swap the devil dogs out for anything you should. Their firepower is pretty weak, and without the tallarn trait you'll be having minuses to hot on the move. they're also liable to be made useless by the enemy tagging them in CC.
I'd swap them out for either hellhounds, sentinels (with AC, PC or heavy flamer) or rough riders.
DoomMouse wrote: Just one point - if you can swap the devil dogs out for anything you should. Their firepower is pretty weak, and without the tallarn trait you'll be having minuses to hot on the move. they're also liable to be made useless by the enemy tagging them in CC.
I'd swap them out for either hellhounds, sentinels (with AC, PC or heavy flamer) or rough riders.
Ok noted. I'll play a couple of games with hellhound/devildog mix with the intention of swapping them all to hellhounds.
CKO wrote: Has anyone had any success with aerial dropping tempestus scions?
Sort of.
I run Space Wolves and a detachment of Scions sort of kind of becomes Pseudo Scouts since the Wolves don't get troop Scouts. They drop in turn three, finish off things that have already been mauled and dig in to hold objectives. Optimally spreading my opponent's rescources in an attempt to get their stuff back but more often being snarled at then ignored unless my opponent has to do clean-up duty for a complete board-wiping.
Has anyone ran a Vulture w/ Punisher with Tallarn and a Officer of the Fleet. YOu are hitting on 3's and get to keep your -1 hard to hit, can move and shoot without penalty bc of tallarn, If positioned right can get the officer of fleet reroll bonus.
Its 2 more wounds than a leman, and about 30 points cheaper ( i feel the -1 to hit offsets the T7 vs T8). Plus you could nightshroud it for a -2 to hit if needed.
Given the prevalence of hordes as a counter to the knight meta this seems like a good option.
I like vultures for the utility of being able to charge a key firebase unit if the opportunity arises. Also an amazing target for the 'vengeance for cadia' strat. A hovering vulture on average will put 29 wounds on a plaguebearer squad even with the -1 to hit. (If the opponent then charges said hovering vulture then combine VFC with defensive gunners for overwatch hilarity)
DoomMouse wrote: I like vultures for the utility of being able to charge a key firebase unit if the opportunity arises. Also an amazing target for the 'vengeance for cadia' strat. A hovering vulture on average will put 29 wounds on a plaguebearer squad even with the -1 to hit. (If the opponent then charges said hovering vulture then combine VFC with defensive gunners for overwatch hilarity)
Wouldn't you hit on 5's naturally because of the +1 to hit. SO defensive gunners would make it a 4. Versus non fly units at least.
I know that a 6 is required. Defensive gunners is a 5. I know you can negatively modify over watch past a 6, but where does it say you can add positive to hit modifiers?
Dynas wrote: I know that a 6 is required. Defensive gunners is a 5. I know you can negatively modify over watch past a 6, but where does it say you can add positive to hit modifiers?
The shooting rules say so. You have to show where it says to NOT apply them in overwatch. Modifiers still apply in overwatch, they just don't affect your ability to hit something, which only happens on a natural 6.
Rolling a 2 with -1 to hit with a Plasma Weapon in overwatch makes it explode. Rolling a 5 with +1 to hit with Tesla triggers tesla.
Just to check, can we still move move move after arriving from reserve? I remember there was an FAQ that affected move after deepstrike. Seems like a good way to snag objectives if viable.
DoomMouse wrote: Just to check, can we still move move move after arriving from reserve? I remember there was an FAQ that affected move after deepstrike. Seems like a good way to snag objectives if viable.
I think the Chaos FAQ shut it down for EVERYONE, not just Chaos.
DoomMouse wrote: Just to check, can we still move move move after arriving from reserve? I remember there was an FAQ that affected move after deepstrike. Seems like a good way to snag objectives if viable.
I think the Chaos FAQ shut it down for EVERYONE, not just Chaos.
So no, you can't.
Though that entry seems to have vanished...At least I can't seem to find it. So there's arqument that GW backpedalled on that restriction and it's now legal since only thing that said "no" has been removed from the FAQ so only exists in memory of those who have seen it/heard it from others.
Really even if they wanted to make it legal why not edit the answer rather than remove whole question? That seems like least clear method of doing that...
I have no idea what's the common way for it now. Guess old FAQ answer is still considered valid?
Because chaos player asked and GW has rather annoying habit of answering _specific question_ and not the more global scenario. For example question about stratagem X gets answered but then whatabout similar stratagems? Are we supposed to apply answer to those? Whatabout exact same triggers in NON-STRATAGEM usages?
Which is why please try to make questions GENERALIST rather than specific. GW doesn't turn specfics into generalists so we have to do it.
Ah OK. So that should mean that move move move is fine then. Nice, I'll have to remember this with the Elysians and my company commander with dagger of tusakh then when I need to nab an objective
Lanlaorn wrote: They specifically nerfed Warp Time with an FAQ answer such that you can't deep strike then Warp Time but I think all other options are fine.
I mean they literally just wrote GSC rules that allow for movement after being placed on the table.
To my knowledge, it has to specifically call out working after Deep Strike to work.
Q: Can such a unit move or Advance for any other reason
e.g. because of an ability such as The Swarmlord’s Hive
Commander ability, or because of a psychic power such as
Warptime from the Dark Hereticus discipline, or because
of a Stratagem like Metabolic Overdrive from Codex:
Tyranids, etc.?
A: No.
Designer's Commentary, page 5 under "Reinforcment" part
Gnollu wrote: Q: Can such a unit move or Advance for any other reason
e.g. because of an ability such as The Swarmlord’s Hive
Commander ability, or because of a psychic power such as
Warptime from the Dark Hereticus discipline, or because
of a Stratagem like Metabolic Overdrive from Codex:
Tyranids, etc.?
A: No.
Designer's Commentary, page 5 under "Reinforcment" part
Are 9 buffed Bullgryns with the 2++ save in shooting phase and 3++ in melee competitive? It seems very good. I'm looking to build a good army but I find that the widespread -1 to hit really hurts us.
So a couple other weird little things I've noticed. First off, sorry Mordians, that really hurts your amount of fire an infantry squad can put out. Now if you FRFSRF a Mordian Squad with Volley Fire! they can at best get one additional shot apiece, instead of getting another 4 lasgun shots per 6. Also means stuff like plasma doesn't get to double tap on Volley Fire, it just gets one additional shot.
Page 136 – Volley Fire Change the second sentence to read: ‘Each time you roll a hit roll of 6+ for an attack made by a model in that unit, immediately make one additional hit roll against the same target using the same weapon. These additional hit rolls cannot themselves generate any further hit rolls.’
And perhaps the most trivial buff I've ever seen, but I'll take it
Page 139 – Pietrov’s Mk 45 Change this weapons Type to ‘Pistol 2’.
RenegadeKorps wrote: Are 9 buffed Bullgryns with the 2++ save in shooting phase and 3++ in melee competitive? It seems very good.
I'm looking to build a good army but I find that the widespread -1 to hit really hurts us.
Lothar wrote: Valkyrie was not OP, it was a stupid thing to nerf the only special thing about it...it was actually nerfed twice, all flyers received a nerf...
Mordians are very bad regiment, now nerfed to oblivion...
What exactly was nerfed, the aerial drop allowing movement?
Another nerf is that flyers can no longer block movement and no longer lock units in close combat....which is exactly what you did with valkyrie after the drop...
Actually, the Valkyrie was not only nerfed twice, but thrice. It can no longer
-keep units from shooting the next turn by charging them
-block paths for non-flyers
-bring infantry units into close range on turn one, i.e. for hot-shot lasguns, meltas, grenades or a higher chance of successfully charging
This is so sad. I've always taken at least one, and they alway had their use, but now all they do is their own shooting, which is poor. It's really hard for me to justify taking one now, which kinda ruins my mechanized force style-wise.
no. And this is a significantly better version of what you actually get, dealing an average of 3.5 bolter hits instead of 3.06.
