Time for a thread now that we have moved on from the index. I'll update the OP with tactica closer to release.
For now, here's a heavy breakdown from ITC vet and playtester, InControl. Definitely worth the watch even if you think you've kept up with all the leaks so far, he pretty much goes through everything.
Aberrants are our premiere CQC unit now, If not taking Twisted Helix (why wouldn't you?) you're forced to pay for the Anointed Throng formation to unlock a quasi-attack again stratagem (otherwise it's not needed because the 3 CP ones from Twisted Helix is far superior in most if not all circumstances).
By the way they raised the cost of Seismic Cannons up to 12 (from 10)...did they change anything about them? Mining Laser and Heavy Mining Lasers received hefty buffs and also minor discounts...there must be some odd reason for increasing the cost of already underpowered guns like Seismic Cannons...
Also R.I.P Abominant, Price increase and -1 to Hit killed him
With acolytes with saw for 17 points im not sure if aberrants are necessary.
I was thinking in play only neophytes on table with some characters as patriarch (and some mortars) and the other 1000 points in ambush acolytes with some characters.
But maybe its better play full acolytes, ork style, with 100 acolytes on ambush and 100 on table.
In the end the neophytes do not shoot very well, and for 2 points more you have acolytes..
Colonel Cross wrote: Those screenshots reveal the webber automatically hits now ...
Its very cheap which is nice - but its still so marginal that its probably not worth thinking about unless you are trying to get a list exactly to the points limit. Its about as useful as stormbolter.
5 jackals with demo charges, rusted claw and using the two grenade strats can kill most vehicles in the game in one round for 75 points.
Unfortunately the only way to use them apparently
With acolytes with saw for 17 points im not sure if aberrants are necessary.
I was thinking in play only neophytes on table with some characters as patriarch (and some mortars) and the other 1000 points in ambush acolytes with some characters.
But maybe its better play full acolytes, ork style, with 100 acolytes on ambush and 100 on table.
In the end the neophytes do not shoot very well, and for 2 points more you have acolytes..
A horde of 4 armed Emperor Neophytes in a Deliverance Broodsurge detachment seems like it might be something tough. A blob of screens that effectively deploys in your opponents face and then has to make an 8" re-rollable charge? I think that's like a 70% success rate or something. Turn 2 deepstrike stops it from locking them in DZ or anything but I still think it's pretty good as far as hordes go, they don't really pay much to do this, 5ppm and a CP for the detachment is no big deal. And then you will be able to turn those Neophytes into a ton of CP for Vecting every thing should you choose.
In the rumor thread the Warhammer team verfied that blips don't count as reserves so you can deploy the entire army by blip if you wish. They are going to add it into our FAQ in a few weeks to stop any arguments that might occur.
I am a bit confused about the brood brother things and our troop choises?
The old index had 1 units you could build from 2 differnet kits. The miner kits, with 2 special weapons and 2 mining weapons. And one that could take an IG heavy weapon.
Is this two seperate units now? And one of them (the miners) benefit from army wide traits, while the other (the one from the IG kit) does not benefit from amry wide trait? Is that correct. Please comment. I am very confused.
Niiai wrote: I am a bit confused about the brood brother things and our troop choises?
The old index had 1 units you could build from 2 differnet kits. The miner kits, with 2 special weapons and 2 mining weapons. And one that could take an IG heavy weapon.
Is this two seperate units now? And one of them (the miners) benefit from army wide traits, while the other (the one from the IG kit) does not benefit from amry wide trait? Is that correct. Please comment. I am very confused.
Yeah, as far as I've understood things you are right. We now have three Troops choices. First acolytes. Second the miners, Neophytes, 5p each, they get the <cult> trait and mining weapons and can ride in the goliath vehicles. Third Brood Brothers, 4p each, they are pictured built from the cadian models with neophyte heads, they get heavy weapon teams and can ride in the chimera.
The chimera says it transports "Brood Brother infantry". And that's only the brood brothers squad and the brood brothers heavy weapon squads (they are exactly like the AMHWTs) and any infantry you have in an allied AM detachment.
Thats a bummer, the chimera was always better than the goliath for transporting acolytes and aberrants. I’m really liking the look of the rock grinder though. Its got +1 ws and s over the index and the clearance incinerator is 2d6 instead of d6 hits. Should pack a nice punch whilst ferrying a strike team of acolytes. Bonus points if you have demo charges and auto detonate using the stratagem
I saw the video with the cpdex explained where ther jackslad squad is pressented as not that impressive. I had two thoughts on this: use it to deliver a flamer and use the throw grenade stratagem?
Also, regarding cult creeds, are there some units in the codex that do not benefit from it? Like genestealers or the guardsmenn?
I think the biggest let down is the fact the Chimera can no longer transport any infantry models. Both because of the effectiveness in game as well as the hurt on my wallet now that I need to get more goliath trucks/grinders :(
I couldn’t see any limit on the amount of demo charges a bike squad can take, so I’m thinking a squad of 5 all with demos with the grenadier strat and the drive by strat should do the trick to most things. With Jackal support, thats a 50% of a knights health on average
C4790M wrote: I couldn’t see any limit on the amount of demo charges a bike squad can take, so I’m thinking a squad of 5 all with demos with the grenadier strat and the drive by strat should do the trick to most things. With Jackal support, thats a 50% of a knights health on average
Yea and they get to cult ambush, so with the 2 CP Lying in Wait strat that lets you appear 3" away it wouldn't be too hard to pull off. In fact with three units you could do it multiple turns in a row lol. Thats not bad for a 75 pt unit.
Edit: BTW that is a bummer about chimeras. I only have 2 but I converted them to look like construction vehicles, they basically look like a bull dozer with no plow. I suppose I could switch the gear and treat them as trucks though. I have 3 grinders and only 1 truck, that truck kit is cancer to assemble. I might pick two more up though.
C4790M wrote: I couldn’t see any limit on the amount of demo charges a bike squad can take, so I’m thinking a squad of 5 all with demos with the grenadier strat and the drive by strat should do the trick to most things. With Jackal support, thats a 50% of a knights health on average
Yea and they get to cult ambush, so with the 2 CP Lying in Wait strat that lets you appear 3" away it wouldn't be too hard to pull off. In fact with three units you could do it multiple turns in a row lol. Thats not bad for a 75 pt unit.
Was it not something like you can take weapons from a list but no two models can take the same one? And then some numbered restriction like medium weapon and the car weapon?
C4790M wrote: I couldn’t see any limit on the amount of demo charges a bike squad can take, so I’m thinking a squad of 5 all with demos with the grenadier strat and the drive by strat should do the trick to most things. With Jackal support, thats a 50% of a knights health on average
Yea and they get to cult ambush, so with the 2 CP Lying in Wait strat that lets you appear 3" away it wouldn't be too hard to pull off. In fact with three units you could do it multiple turns in a row lol. Thats not bad for a 75 pt unit.
Was it not something like you can take weapons from a list but no two models can take the same one? And then some numbered restriction like medium weapon and the car weapon?
Can you clarify that, I am not sure I understand what your asking?
C4790M wrote: I couldn’t see any limit on the amount of demo charges a bike squad can take, so I’m thinking a squad of 5 all with demos with the grenadier strat and the drive by strat should do the trick to most things. With Jackal support, thats a 50% of a knights health on average
Yea and they get to cult ambush, so with the 2 CP Lying in Wait strat that lets you appear 3" away it wouldn't be too hard to pull off. In fact with three units you could do it multiple turns in a row lol. Thats not bad for a 75 pt unit.
If that's true they might actually be good. But I think only twice as everything has to be down by turn 3. Also 225 pts feels significantly more to me than 150.
Colonel Cross wrote: Those screenshots reveal the webber automatically hits now ...
Its very cheap which is nice - but its still so marginal that its probably not worth thinking about unless you are trying to get a list exactly to the points limit. Its about as useful as stormbolter.
Yeah, i actually like it. nice little way to bump up the firepower of a neophyte squad vs infantry without having to take them out of their 12" rapid fire comfort zone.
So the jacklayt entry: The leader and two jackals can take weapons from the jackal list. The same model can not have the same weapon twice. every four Grenade launcher etc.
Any jackal can take 1 of 4 weapons (no grenade pack though)
The car can replace the stubber with such and such.
Where does it say they can take the big boom grenades?
I'm having a little bit of a hard time envisioning what a solid army looks like, while avoiding the things it feels like we're punished for taking.
Heavy support slot is pretty slim without LRs, elite slot feels pretty over-packed. FA I guess will be bikes, though their exact role seems kind of scattered brained at this point?
Troops...seem solid~ish? But they're more or less deep striking IG but without orders and more expensive? That isn't bad, I guess, but no one is really running guard hordes exactly.
It feels like the better build is going to be a patrol or small brigade of kraken stealers (because ours are awful?), a supreme command of tank commanders are the real "base" of the army. And then I guess we build from there? Hard to see at the moment though outside of I guess DS'ing aberrants and character assassins we really bring to the fore.
So...so bikes. Looking at the unit entry i've confirmed they can take 2 waepons from the atalan weapon list, which does include both an autogun and a shotgun. So, you can have one of each, 1 in 4 gets a GL, and you can take a flamer on the quad.
Theyre just a fast, somewhat more durable per wound version of neophytes. If you have to fill fast slots for brigades, I think you could take either them or sentinels.
Patriarch is the Helix WT and Helix Relic, Primus is +3" Aura WT, Magus is +1 LD and Crouchling, Iconward is the Broodsurge relic and WT, and we then enable the Patriarch Combo.
LD+3 Makes him LD13, enables the mind war combo against anything LD7-9 quite successfully, while also being a monster in combat.
60 Helix Acolytes w/ reroll charges when near the Iconward, 12 Bikes with Cultists Knives and Shotguns taking late and forward objectives, while some brood brother hold ground in deployment, Rusted Claw Neophytes go midfield or backfield for further objectives, their Icon helping them with FNP to their 3+ in cover. Meanwhile the Rusted Claw Sanctus can take the Amulet to help deny overwatch while using perfect ambush to make easy charges, and making him a 2+ against shooting it ap- and 1, in case he deletes a lone character or stays around after an assault he's more defensive and likely to leave the table again.
The single Abb squad let's me focus on keeping them Alice and double fighting, since I have 20CP and the Nexos package to Regen 5-6 more over the course of a game, we have some flexibility with our aggression and monstrous vigor, which is also rerolling 1s with the Iconward, and our Kellermorph is showing up when the time is right to give everyone reroll 1s on top of their +1 from the Primus and his 9" auras.
C4790M wrote: I couldn’t see any limit on the amount of demo charges a bike squad can take, so I’m thinking a squad of 5 all with demos with the grenadier strat and the drive by strat should do the trick to most things. With Jackal support, thats a 50% of a knights health on average
Yea and they get to cult ambush, so with the 2 CP Lying in Wait strat that lets you appear 3" away it wouldn't be too hard to pull off. In fact with three units you could do it multiple turns in a row lol. Thats not bad for a 75 pt unit.
If that's true they might actually be good. But I think only twice as everything has to be down by turn 3. Also 225 pts feels significantly more to me than 150.
Well don't forget the drill and return to the shadows will allow extra units to enter reserve from the table and I am pretty sure they get past the turn 3 restriction. Two units is probably fine though. I would actually consider keeping a third more bare bones and possibly larger for the first turn, as it is nice having a fast unit to mow down screens and tie forward threats down.
It's ludicrous BTW that hand flamers are only 1ppm. It might be even better to just pop up 10 acolytes with hand flamers for only 80 pts. that will average you 35 s3 hits lol.
drakerocket wrote: I'm having a little bit of a hard time envisioning what a solid army looks like, while avoiding the things it feels like we're punished for taking.
Heavy support slot is pretty slim without LRs, elite slot feels pretty over-packed. FA I guess will be bikes, though their exact role seems kind of scattered brained at this point?
Troops...seem solid~ish? But they're more or less deep striking IG but without orders and more expensive? That isn't bad, I guess, but no one is really running guard hordes exactly.
It feels like the better build is going to be a patrol or small brigade of kraken stealers (because ours are awful?), a supreme command of tank commanders are the real "base" of the army. And then I guess we build from there? Hard to see at the moment though outside of I guess DS'ing aberrants and character assassins we really bring to the fore.
Okay, I'm not going to write a list, but off the bat, my interpretations so far:
Staples:
Nexos seems really good. So many good stratagems, even more so if combined with Tyranids, this guy might make you back 6 CP over the course of the game - thats a battalions worth, probably want to take him for like 50 pts or whatever he is, and the other stuff is just a bonus.
Patriarch is really good. Fearless bubble, cost effective offense wise, character, and has the strongest Mental Onslaught cast in the game.
Magus is really good too, so are the familiars. I'd say you want at least one of all the above 3 units, almost without fail.
Acolytes are really good troops at 7pts. Definitely consider hand flamers too. Similar to Bloodletters for Khorne, and Tzaangors for TSons, I feel like these are our new bread and butter for offense. They also belong in the deepstrike category because they do that very well too, but I think they belong here as well.
Potential pieces:
Primus is a force multiplier. +1 to hit for the meat of the army is significant. May even be an auto-include like the above units, closest thing to it.
Kelermorph seems to be his biggest impact will be making your opponent screen and punishing bad play, but he's cheap enough that just doing this and even taking down a few infantry might still be very worthwhile.
Biophagus seems like hes really good, he's just so cheap and the impact may be significant especially if you tag multiple units over the course of the game.
Acolyte Iconward depends on what you're doing, but I'm pretty sure you can get Aberrants down to 3+ FNP with one near them combined with a strat which is just... brutal for how much damage they can put out. Combined with maybe Bladed Cog might be an absurdly hard to lift unit in the vein of Talos. This guy's pretty straight forward - "do I want to spend 40 pts to give an FNP bubble and does my list play in such a way to benefit from that?"
Cult Leman Russ are always good to add more staying power to GSC and just let you put some tanky bois on the table to push around the field and likely do consistent damage every single turn while the rest of their army is focused on your big threats. I think these are pretty good and should never be looked over too hastily. Jackals, once we get the ruling ironed out on them it seems they have the potential to be quite good or bad. Just gonna put them here tentatively so they don't get looked over. At the end of the day I think they are cheap, durable and speedy enough to hold ground efficiently, and they'd be great in like Codex: Tau or something, but I think their role might just be a bit unnecessary in the GSC dex unless they can actually threaten to do something offensively.
I personally think the Locus is being slept on a little, he can eat a few wounds from a Patriach or something to keep him alive in a pinch, but above all I think for 40 pts, he's just got a good statline worth his cost, especially as a deepstriker should you need him and with the many bonus's available that he can just pick up by being there. However, I'm one of the people who thinks Lictors are really good now at 33 pts, and you can probably see the similarities here, so fair warning that I recognise this one might possibly[/b] be a more personal thing - but then again maybe not. I don't think he'll ever be a [i]bad inclusion tbh, especially as his cheap as chips price.
Deepstrikers:
Clamavus seem really good for any sort of deepstriking. Auto-take if you're doing any sort of thing like that, he's the new Primus.
Broodsurge Deliverance Neophytes are really good for units that don't need any more help to get into CC. 20 man strong ones + Might will actually hurt too when the stratagem goes off. Cult of the 4 Arm Emperor (C4E?) makes sure every unit will almost always get into combat since that will total to +2 to a charge that you can re-roll, but going up to S4 with Twisted Helix will make them hit harder and they still have +1 to charge. Purestrains still gain more from Might cast than anything else, if you are willing to spend CP on the 3D6 charge strat, they get into combat really consistently out of deepstrike. They will also are the best units for multi-assaulting a big line of defenders, and will shred things when they double fight. They are no longer the go-to assault unit, but they are still the best target for targeted buffs and get more of them than any other unit. I'll probably consider taking a full unit in every list just because they put out the scariest threat bubble in the dex to non-tank units, and you can do a lot of trickery with deployment to always make sure they are in the right position to not get wrecked, and apply their damage. Anointed Throng Abberants with Picks are really good (making an Abominant a good choice too if you take them), and you can buff the Abominant to absurd levels of fightiness with different relics and traits etc. These can probably work without deepstrike too as the units are small enough to fit in transports, so maybe they don't belong strictly in this category. Abberants are also great recievers of targeted buffs, and Twisted Helix or Might will really let them reach excellent levels of strength with their Power Picks. Hammers are good too. Take a Primus and an Abominant if you take any sort of real investment into these guys.
These are my picks for good units in the dex so far. I don't know how to evaluate the transports just yet, none of them are too bad really. I think most of the rest of the units are a bit of a whiff but thats okay, thats most the dex up there. I'll add my opinions about traits and strats soon, but this is where I stand on the units. However I will quickly add that I think the D3 CP Warlord trait is by far the best, and that every list should have at least one C4E detachment for probably that, but definitely the "Vect" equivalent.
@ceph, how are you getting LD+3 in that list? thought that required the inspirational leader WLT. I think your list is rocking a +2. Not a huge difference. I expect that power to get nerfed in short order anyway since it can one shot a knight if you use allies to get the -2 ld. But while it lasts, don't forget to mind control it FIRST so you can shoot his buddy before you burst the pilots brain
Red Corsair wrote: I would actually consider keeping a third more bare bones and possibly larger for the first turn, as it is nice having a fast unit to mow down screens and tie forward threats down.
What load out can that unit take to mow down screens? Can they even kill a single 10 man unit of guardsmen in the space of 2 turns?
Red Corsair wrote: I would actually consider keeping a third more bare bones and possibly larger for the first turn, as it is nice having a fast unit to mow down screens and tie forward threats down.
What load out can that unit take to mow down screens? Can they even kill a single 10 man unit of guardsmen in the space of 2 turns?
Well, apparently as of now you can take auto guns and shot guns but I doubt that lasts beyond the usual 2nd week FAQ. However, despite that a unit with 2 quads, plus shot guns and GL's is not terrible. It would need to be 10 models to be effective though. Still, that's fairly cheap. If an alphus is used in concert (you want her for the demo units later anyway) that should do a little over 10 wounds to GEQ at 6" range band. With a 14" move thats not bad, it's even better in rusted claw since they can advance and fire with no penalty. Cast the advance and charge spell and you can tag other units after. I really want to know what the hammer they can take do.
yeah hand flamer acolytes are cuhraaaaazy. Glad I have 5 already built for the lulz, once again my habit of building things the way they make me happy has given me a collection of reasonable amounts of things that have become good now.
speaking of which, I'm kind of adoring the buffed profile of the seismic cannon coupled with our grenade launchers. a cult ambushing squad of neos with 2 seismics and 2 GLs looks to be a very flexible little unit - antichaff if you position the seismics outside 12, anti light vehicle if you position them within.
the_scotsman wrote: yeah hand flamer acolytes are cuhraaaaazy. Glad I have 5 already built for the lulz, once again my habit of building things the way they make me happy has given me a collection of reasonable amounts of things that have become good now.
speaking of which, I'm kind of adoring the buffed profile of the seismic cannon coupled with our grenade launchers. a cult ambushing squad of neos with 2 seismics and 2 GLs looks to be a very flexible little unit - antichaff if you position the seismics outside 12, anti light vehicle if you position them within.
Yea I have 11 with them + 4 metas with them. I am the same way, I have a few drills and cutters as well as the saws and a few demos and I am glad I have those as well.
I don't really like the seismic canons myself. I know lots of folks do but I like the mining laser more. I do own a couple so maybe I will give them a go, they certainly seem better then heavy stubbers but then again the HS is only 2 ppm now lol. Thats the funny thing about this book, I don't think you can really go wrong on load outs. Even the webber seems solid now at 1ppm. 2d3 auto hits at 16 for 2 points is kind of hard to scoff at, even if the damage it does won't be massive at all.
Are hand flamers REALLY 1PPM? If so how's 20 acolytes with flamers dropping in with the strat to hand out 70 S3 auto hits (using the strat to get close of course)
The flames alone would do 4 wounds to a KNIGHT let alone any softer targets (GEQ = around 22 dead models)
Not bad for 160pts, and then they can charge whatever was cowering behind the screen they just nuked.
I feel from the competitive stand point the Ridgerunner is never going to see the table.
I think casually its not too bad - but the odds of getting that 1 on the mining laser (and the other weapons are bad) is too high. If its guns were assault it might be more interesting.
Also paying 10 points to ignore cover for a model like this is insane. They must really rate heavy stubbers.
DoomMouse wrote: Are hand flamers REALLY 1PPM? If so how's 20 acolytes with flamers dropping in with the strat to hand out 70 S3 auto hits (using the strat to get close of course)
The flames alone would do 4 wounds to a KNIGHT let alone any softer targets (GEQ = around 22 dead models)
Not bad for 160pts, and then they can charge whatever was cowering behind the screen they just nuked.
Yeah it's going to be incredibly powerful. Especially since they assault really strong. On that note, you may actually miss the assault by doing this, any wise opponent is going to take casualities from the front. There will need to be some careful decision making done there.
Red Corsair wrote: @ceph, how are you getting LD+3 in that list? thought that required the inspirational leader WLT. I think your list is rocking a +2. Not a huge difference. I expect that power to get nerfed in short order anyway since it can one shot a knight if you use allies to get the -2 ld. But while it lasts, don't forget to mind control it FIRST so you can shoot his buddy before you burst the pilots brain
Magus has inspirational leader, iconward has +1 banner, clamavus is +1.
Red Corsair wrote: @ceph, how are you getting LD+3 in that list? thought that required the inspirational leader WLT. I think your list is rocking a +2. Not a huge difference. I expect that power to get nerfed in short order anyway since it can one shot a knight if you use allies to get the -2 ld. But while it lasts, don't forget to mind control it FIRST so you can shoot his buddy before you burst the pilots brain
Magus has inspirational leader, iconward has +1 banner, clamavus is +1.
Red Corsair wrote: @ceph, how are you getting LD+3 in that list? thought that required the inspirational leader WLT. I think your list is rocking a +2. Not a huge difference. I expect that power to get nerfed in short order anyway since it can one shot a knight if you use allies to get the -2 ld. But while it lasts, don't forget to mind control it FIRST so you can shoot his buddy before you burst the pilots brain
Magus has inspirational leader, iconward has +1 banner, clamavus is +1.
Iconward banner is reroll LD, not +1
Sorry, not a BANNER, Just the only possible Broodsurge relic he could take, that I had mentioned somewhat whimsically.
Vial of the Grandsire's Blood:Effectively Iconward only due to keywords, add +1 leadership to friendly cult models within 6"
Yea, sorry I missed the magus. It is something that I imagine will be FAQ'd in two weeks though. Auto killing any model is crazy. I wonder how they would balance it if they do, probably put a cap on how many MW you can do. Not that I mind deleting a casellan after shooting it's guns
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DoomMouse wrote: Are hand flamers REALLY 1PPM? If so how's 20 acolytes with flamers dropping in with the strat to hand out 70 S3 auto hits (using the strat to get close of course)
The flames alone would do 4 wounds to a KNIGHT let alone any softer targets (GEQ = around 22 dead models)
Not bad for 160pts, and then they can charge whatever was cowering behind the screen they just nuked.
You can go a couple different ways. if you perfect ambush first and roll a die to move closer you can then shoot AND charge, though as shuppet says casualty removal will be an issue unless there are more then one target. Or you can use lying in wait and drop 3.1" away and shoot but not charge, which hilariously can be stacked with perfect ambush to shoot twice, averaging 140 s3 autohits from a unit of 20. BUT, I don't think you are going to get 20 in range even with stratagems since we are on 32mm bases. It's another tool in the box though and at 1ppm I can't blame anyone for taking hand flamers on every acolyte that can.
Not bad for 160pts, and then they can charge whatever was cowering behind the screen they just nuked.
If you use the Lying in Wait Stratagem to drop in within 3'' the unit can't initiate a charge that turn. Disregarding that, a 20-strong unit is probably going to be overkill against just about anything you might expect to see as screens. I could see it being ok for rooting out Loota bombs or large units of Ork Boyz, but I'm not sure how cost effective it would be against the wider field.
I think the main utility from Lying In Wait will be the ability to block escape routes for units about to be locked in close combat by dropping a squad behind the intended target. With good placement and pile-in it should be possible to trap a unit in combat by making it unable to fully pull away without moving within 1'' of either squad.
Not bad for 160pts, and then they can charge whatever was cowering behind the screen they just nuked.
If you use the Lying in Wait Stratagem to drop in within 3'' the unit can't initiate a charge that turn. Disregarding that, a 20-strong unit is probably going to be overkill against just about anything you might expect to see as screens. I could see it being ok for rooting out Loota bombs or large units of Ork Boyz, but I'm not sure how cost effective it would be against the wider field.
I think the main utility from Lying In Wait will be the ability to block escape routes for units about to be locked in close combat by dropping a squad behind the intended target. With good placement and pile-in it should be possible to trap a unit in combat by making it unable to fully pull away without moving within 1'' of either squad.
Here's the thing, nobody HAS to use either stratagem on the unit. The 20 hand flamers is 20 points lol. That's whats interesting, for 1ppm you basically just add another tool to the box. If your opponent is prepared or it isn't the right tool just don't use those stratagems.
I mean, we basically have a year until HF's go up in cost. I can't imagine this wasn't a time delay error in printing. Blood angels pay 1ppm also, but when they got a release HF's were d3 hits, the Sisters Beta Dex is the most recent book in development and they added the designers note to count HF's as d6 auto hits but they pay 3ppm. I was sure we would pay 3ppm as well, but I guess it either slipped through or was put out to print earlier. Not sure, but just an interesting hunch I have. So I am not going to snip all my auto pistols and add a HF to all my dudes, but having a squad still won't be bad even if they shift things around down the road. 3ppm is fair, 1ppm is so idiotic it baffles the mind.
EDIT: Note that BAHF were not increased in CA where the designer note is. I just realized this and checked lol. So now I would say it is less certain but I would still be shocked if they eventually aren't addressed. So it's really up to how much a gambler you are Although I suppose you could magnetize them, but good lord is that a project.
I don't mind if the power is adjusted. As it stands I'm investing otherwise useless warlord traits and relics to get an ability that's really only "too strong" against Knights.
Making any changes just let's me take better options, and I'm 100% okay with that.
Red Corsair wrote: Yea, sorry I missed the magus. It is something that I imagine will be FAQ'd in two weeks though. Auto killing any model is crazy. I wonder how they would balance it if they do, probably put a cap on how many MW you can do. Not that I mind deleting a casellan after shooting it's guns
Considering Eldar soup can do much the same currently with their powers and iirc, IK have a stratagem to cancel all MWs on a 5+ for that phase, I don't see this as something high on the FAQ list.
Here's the thing, nobody HAS to use either stratagem on the unit. The 20 hand flamers is 20 points lol. That's whats interesting, for 1ppm you basically just add another tool to the box. If your opponent is prepared or it isn't the right tool just don't use those stratagems.
I'm not disagreeing. The second block of commentary was meant as a stand-alone thought regarding the stratagem generally, the first bit was just pointing out that the unit can't charge afterwards as was being suggested in the original quote followed by concerns that a 20-strong unit of Acolytes is going to be overkill for the task given.
-acolyte flamer bomb
-Mental onslought auto kill
-demo charges with bikes hiting at 2+
- a lot of units with easy assault (broodsurge/anointed throng + clamavus + emperor 4-arms)
and best of all there are cp and points for everything!
Where's everyone who was losing their mind and getting pissy over me pointing out how a light vehicle with a low number of shots weapon and 5+ to hit isn't good?
How many ridgerunners are your getting? Your foot taste good?
Units like that will never be good, especially in an army that isn't lacking for ways to be mobile. Really sucks too because the model is very nice looking.
I kind of hope the bikes are worth it at this point and arent overcosted. I have a lot of acolytes with auto pistols and neophyte hybrids... I hope they will see some play as well. I'm sure many former GSC players are on that boat now.
Red Corsair wrote: Yea, sorry I missed the magus. It is something that I imagine will be FAQ'd in two weeks though. Auto killing any model is crazy. I wonder how they would balance it if they do, probably put a cap on how many MW you can do. Not that I mind deleting a casellan after shooting it's guns
Considering Eldar soup can do much the same currently with their powers and iirc, IK have a stratagem to cancel all MWs on a 5+ for that phase, I don't see this as something high on the FAQ list.
Eldar cannot do the same, they can get a nasty mind war off, but nothing close to this deadly, and not nearly as easily or in a TAC list.
That IK strat won't help though, the mortal wounds you inflict are infinite lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Danny slag wrote: Where's everyone who was losing their mind and getting pissy over me pointing out how a light vehicle with a low number of shots weapon and 5+ to hit isn't good?
How many ridgerunners are your getting? Your foot taste good?
Units like that will never be good, especially in an army that isn't lacking for ways to be mobile. Really sucks too because the model is very nice looking.
As I recall, level heads were asking you to wait for the full story while you were throwing a tantrum. Funny that you accuse those level heads as being emotional.
I'm getting a pair. I don't think they are bad actually. They are definitely niche but having a unit that has a high number of wounds, doesn't degrade and can threaten their lines first turn is something we require. The book didn't really change the mechanics much from post big FAQ 2. You come in turn 2 earliest and you need to board control. The ridgerunner scouts 9" then moves 14" more and can still assault. Further more, it's flare launcher gets a unit of bikes cooking at 20" from your deployment, cast psychic stimulus and you have a decent away team. I think it will be useful to tie down a flank for a turn and force their attention. Will it cause a ton of damage? No, but that has never been the only measure of a units usefulness. At least not beyond a shallow first glance.
The army may not lack mobility overall, but it still certainly is left a bit wanting on the first turn if you don't plan accordingly, especially when going second. Sentinels and/or ridgerunners are still a requirement IMO. They become even more vital in the mirror match. Something that often gets overlooked. This army is going to be popular, it's smart to have a plan to take out other cults.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kgn01 wrote: I kind of hope the bikes are worth it at this point and arent overcosted. I have a lot of acolytes with auto pistols and neophyte hybrids... I hope they will see some play as well. I'm sure many former GSC players are on that boat now.
Apparently the bikes can take 12 +3 quads in one unit. That's 36 T4 wounds with a -1 to hit. It's 165pts before upgrades. 36 neophytes before upgrades comes to 180. They would also need to be in more then one unit, not saying thats worse just pointing it out. I personally think that's pretty solid. Note that if you use them along side a ridgerunner, you can drive a unit up into cover on an objective and use the strat that gives them the character rule, forcing an opponent to kill the ridgerunner first since with it's scout move it can easily be placed in front.
I think it will take a few games to learn all the tricks. Lets not forget they can deploy underground and also be returned to the shadows.
Oh and I noticed in one of the videos that were reading the profile that only the unit champion has access to the autogun, so no doubling up on shotguns and autoguns.
Red Corsair wrote: Yea, sorry I missed the magus. It is something that I imagine will be FAQ'd in two weeks though. Auto killing any model is crazy. I wonder how they would balance it if they do, probably put a cap on how many MW you can do. Not that I mind deleting a casellan after shooting it's guns
Considering Eldar soup can do much the same currently with their powers and iirc, IK have a stratagem to cancel all MWs on a 5+ for that phase, I don't see this as something high on the FAQ list.
Eldar cannot do the same, they can get a nasty mind war off, but nothing close to this deadly, and not nearly as easily or in a TAC list.
That IK strat won't help though, the mortal wounds you inflict are infinite lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Danny slag wrote: Where's everyone who was losing their mind and getting pissy over me pointing out how a light vehicle with a low number of shots weapon and 5+ to hit isn't good?
How many ridgerunners are your getting? Your foot taste good?
Units like that will never be good, especially in an army that isn't lacking for ways to be mobile. Really sucks too because the model is very nice looking.
As I recall, level heads were asking you to wait for the full story while you were throwing a tantrum. Funny that you accuse those level heads as being emotional.
I'm getting a pair. I don't think they are bad actually. They are definitely niche but having a unit that has a high number of wounds, doesn't degrade and can threaten their lines first turn is something we require. The book didn't really change the mechanics much from post big FAQ 2. You come in turn 2 earliest and you need to board control. The ridgerunner scouts 9" then moves 14" more and can still assault. Further more, it's flare launcher gets a unit of bikes cooking at 20" from your deployment, cast psychic stimulus and you have a decent away team. I think it will be useful to tie down a flank for a turn and force their attention. Will it cause a ton of damage? No, but that has never been the only measure of a units usefulness. At least not beyond a shallow first glance.
The army may not lack mobility overall, but it still certainly is left a bit wanting on the first turn if you don't plan accordingly, especially when going second. Sentinels and/or ridgerunners are still a requirement IMO. They become even more vital in the mirror match. Something that often gets overlooked. This army is going to be popular, it's smart to have a plan to take out other cults.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kgn01 wrote: I kind of hope the bikes are worth it at this point and arent overcosted. I have a lot of acolytes with auto pistols and neophyte hybrids... I hope they will see some play as well. I'm sure many former GSC players are on that boat now.
Apparently the bikes can take 12 +3 quads in one unit. That's 36 T4 wounds with a -1 to hit. It's 165pts before upgrades. 36 neophytes before upgrades comes to 180. They would also need to be in more then one unit, not saying thats worse just pointing it out. I personally think that's pretty solid. Note that if you use them along side a ridgerunner, you can drive a unit up into cover on an objective and use the strat that gives them the character rule, forcing an opponent to kill the ridgerunner first since with it's scout move it can easily be placed in front.
I think it will take a few games to learn all the tricks. Lets not forget they can deploy underground and also be returned to the shadows.
Oh and I noticed in one of the videos that were reading the profile that only the unit champion has access to the autogun, so no doubling up on shotguns and autoguns.
False, you can have a Biker with both Autogun and Shotgun as you MUST take 2 different weapons from Atalan Jackal Weapons List
Only the atalan champion can have an autogun though, so he is right.
I think there is a mistake from the wording of the ridgerunner scout rule. It sounds like you will not be able to use a blip marker to hide it and than use the scout move. In other words it has to start on the table.
I don't think than autogun + shotgun is that outlandish as intentional. For one, it would look totally sweet. For two, a lot of bikes are either equipped with twin-linked ranged weapons; tomb blades, wind runners, CSM/SM bikes. It's pretty reasonable in my mind to give a shotgun and an autogun.
Kgn01 wrote: Thats really nice! Time to preorder 3 boxes of bikes in that case. Playing them with a ridgerunner sounds amazing. Really nice insight!
I just pre-ordered 2 boxes of the bikes (along with the rest of the characters and the codex) and will likely get a 3rd once I manage to regrow another kidney to sell......
Bikes look superior to Sentinels if you want a Brigade, which you will if you’re running the drill and have to burn a detachment for fortifications. Speaking of which, I feel like if you’re already using the fortification slot you might as well put another building in it. Stick a heavy weapons team in a Bastion or Plasma Obliterator.
The Atalan Jackals seem like the unit I would want to take on a flanking OBJ the enemy has neglected, or bounce around in my backfield. The -1 to hit and their movement speed is what is interesting to me. I don't really expect them to kill anything, I just need them to survive.
Think about it, it doesn't seem like the army usually presents too many vehicles for the enemy AT units to aim at. If you put a vehicle on a backfield OBJ, it is going to be a prime target. However, we will saturate the enemy with bodies, so their anti infantry weapons will be overloaded. How are they going to be able to dump many anti infantry shots into a unit that A, is going to be far away, B not a threat, and C is -1 to hit with 2 wounds each?
For 10pts a model, I would be interested in a unit of them to camp my backfield and be able to react later in the game, which is extra enticing considering they can be returned to the shadows and our army has a distinct lack of staying power. Look at the few battle reports up, they ran out of steam in every one, granted I think the players fell into the trap n00bs with this army fall into, which is dropping everything in all at once, thinking saturation is key. Our units aren't durable enough, we need to play the long game, OBJs, and be smart with what threats when drop in and when. It is like a chess match, when we consider bringing in a unit, we need to ensure it performs above it's point cost and achieves something lasting.
The Abominant went up quite a bit in points, what does everyone think about that? Did I miss any other large changes from the index/Tooth & Claw?
I do think the vehicles are a bit of a trap unless you run a lot of them. Unfortunately, this edition really *really* rewards keeping your profiles as consistent as possible. You either want all mechanized or no mechanized, since your tanks will evaporate if you don't have many of them.
I want to see what the fully skinny on rock grinders is. If they're decent, running mechanized forward rush LRs behind to support and then the rest of the army in ambush so they can't be shot at would present the sort of mono-profile you would want.
I completely agree. Which is why I am very saddened by the fact we can no longer put Aberrants or Acolytes inside Chimeras. I found the durability of Chimeras (especially if they maintain the reduced price point) to be very effective.
I only own 2 rock grinders so even if they are points efficient, I don't know if I can bring myself to buy and build more of those darn things.
Colonel Cross wrote: The Atalan Jackals seem like the unit I would want to take on a flanking OBJ the enemy has neglected, or bounce around in my backfield. The -1 to hit and their movement speed is what is interesting to me. I don't really expect them to kill anything, I just need them to survive.
Think about it, it doesn't seem like the army usually presents too many vehicles for the enemy AT units to aim at. If you put a vehicle on a backfield OBJ, it is going to be a prime target. However, we will saturate the enemy with bodies, so their anti infantry weapons will be overloaded. How are they going to be able to dump many anti infantry shots into a unit that A, is going to be far away, B not a threat, and C is -1 to hit with 2 wounds each?
For 10pts a model, I would be interested in a unit of them to camp my backfield and be able to react later in the game, which is extra enticing considering they can be returned to the shadows and our army has a distinct lack of staying power. Look at the few battle reports up, they ran out of steam in every one, granted I think the players fell into the trap n00bs with this army fall into, which is dropping everything in all at once, thinking saturation is key. Our units aren't durable enough, we need to play the long game, OBJs, and be smart with what threats when drop in and when. It is like a chess match, when we consider bringing in a unit, we need to ensure it performs above it's point cost and achieves something lasting.
The Abominant went up quite a bit in points, what does everyone think about that? Did I miss any other large changes from the index/Tooth & Claw?
If it were only the points cost I would have understood but they decided to kill him with a -1 to Hit on his hammer as well...3 attacks at WS 4+ are NOT GOOD period
CP heavy, but the 20 Acolytes with hand flamers are there to let you get the rest of your ambush charges off.
1.Deploy Acolyte pyros
2.Trigger Lying in Wait (2CP) - deploy Pyros in hand flamer range
3.Trigger Perfect Ambush (3CP) - shoot hand flamers at everything nearby
4. Continue deploying deepstrikers now screen has gone.
It's not at the end of movement phases, start of the shooting phase or anything like that - you're shooting mid deepstrike deployment, so if you can clear a screen you can get the other units in a lot closer that same turn.
20 Acolyte pyros would expect to remove 23 Guardsmen a turn - so that could be quite a big hole for Aberrants to deploy into.
And whilst they can't charge due to the Lying in wait - add a character with the warlord trait that lets units within 6" to heroically intervene, and they can finish off whatever is left in the fight phase too.
And whilst they can't charge due to the Lying in wait - add a character with the warlord trait that lets units within 6" to heroically intervene, and they can finish off whatever is left in the fight phase too.
Colonel Cross wrote: The Atalan Jackals seem like the unit I would want to take on a flanking OBJ the enemy has neglected, or bounce around in my backfield. The -1 to hit and their movement speed is what is interesting to me. I don't really expect them to kill anything, I just need them to survive.
Think about it, it doesn't seem like the army usually presents too many vehicles for the enemy AT units to aim at. If you put a vehicle on a backfield OBJ, it is going to be a prime target. However, we will saturate the enemy with bodies, so their anti infantry weapons will be overloaded. How are they going to be able to dump many anti infantry shots into a unit that A, is going to be far away, B not a threat, and C is -1 to hit with 2 wounds each?
For 10pts a model, I would be interested in a unit of them to camp my backfield and be able to react later in the game, which is extra enticing considering they can be returned to the shadows and our army has a distinct lack of staying power. Look at the few battle reports up, they ran out of steam in every one, granted I think the players fell into the trap n00bs with this army fall into, which is dropping everything in all at once, thinking saturation is key. Our units aren't durable enough, we need to play the long game, OBJs, and be smart with what threats when drop in and when. It is like a chess match, when we consider bringing in a unit, we need to ensure it performs above it's point cost and achieves something lasting.
The Abominant went up quite a bit in points, what does everyone think about that? Did I miss any other large changes from the index/Tooth & Claw?
If it were only the points cost I would have understood but they decided to kill him with a -1 to Hit on his hammer as well...3 attacks at WS 4+ are NOT GOOD period
They changed his hammer?? I did not see that. Weaksauce. I have 2 of those cool dudes :/
Like I said before : if you want the atalan bikes to be anything else than obj grabbers, you have to take rusted claw and demo charges for 5d6 S8 - 2ap d3 damage.
Astmeister wrote: Like I said before : if you want the atalan bikes to be anything else than obj grabbers, you have to take rusted claw and demo charges for 5d6 S8 - 2ap d3 damage.
You don't need to take rusted claw. The grenade strat is generic. Your right that rusted claw definitely has some awesome perks though. Then again twisted helix is decent on them as well.
It's also a bit to early to make claims about their usefulness. As I previously posted, the unit is fast enough to pull a first turn charge which is valuable on it's own. I don't think they will put out tons of damage, but we are talking about 10ppm lol. The penalty to hit them makes them more durable then you might think too. They should easily deal with screens and capture early board control, there assault will also tie things down a turn.
Did I hear correctly that the rock grinder is 4+ to hit in melee now ....fun. Now I just need to know. With the way Brood brothers has been redone can we use tyranids with the AM detachment or has that been squatted.
Astmeister wrote: Like I said before : if you want the atalan bikes to be anything else than obj grabbers, you have to take rusted claw and demo charges for 5d6 S8 - 2ap d3 damage.
You don't need to take rusted claw. The grenade strat is generic. Your right that rusted claw definitely has some awesome perks though. Then again twisted helix is decent on them as well.
It's also a bit to early to make claims about their usefulness. As I previously posted, the unit is fast enough to pull a first turn charge which is valuable on it's own. I don't think they will put out tons of damage, but we are talking about 10ppm lol. The penalty to hit them makes them more durable then you might think too. They should easily deal with screens and capture early board control, there assault will also tie things down a turn.
Has anyone caught what their hammers do?
Their close combat stats are not much better than tyranid gargoyles and how often do you use them for turn 1 charges? They might be okay with twisted helix and cultist knives but throwing 10 grenades will always be better.
Danny slag wrote:Where's everyone who was losing their mind and getting pissy over me pointing out how a light vehicle with a low number of shots weapon and 5+ to hit isn't good? How many ridgerunners are your getting? Your foot taste good?
It only hits on a 5+ if it moves, which realistically it shouldn't have to do often since all of its weapon systems have a 36+'' reach and it has no incentive or reason to move towards the foe outside of last-minute objective grabs.
I'm probably going to get 3-6 of the things personally. I was running lists with 8-9 Goliath hulls out of the index and I figure I should be able to get that hull count up to 12 or maybe even 15 between the price drops and the Achilles. Defensively it is another Goliath hull (with its flare launcher) that wants to sit back in midfield and shoot. No other vehicle available has that combination, plus as a <cult> unit it benefits from a Jackal Alphus.
Red Corsair wrote:Eldar cannot do the same, they can get a nasty mind war off, but nothing close to this deadly, and not nearly as easily or in a TAC list.
The Harlequins have a clone of the power in their psychic discipline, with the same Ld. dice off -> mortal wound effect. The Eldar as a whole have a lot of ways to manipulate leadership, so the power not seeing heavy use amongst them implies in concept it isn't too strong on its own.
Their close combat stats are not much better than tyranid gargoyles and how often do you use them for turn 1 charges? They might be okay with twisted helix and cultist knives but throwing 10 grenades will always be better.
To be fair, Gargoyles have the practical issue of their physical models hindering their table-top performance. Cramming them into melee almost always results in them getting tangled up on each other due to their flying baes and they have a horrible habit of having pointy bits snap during transport. (I own 90 of the things - product of the 7th edition skyswarm formation that made them troops-in-all-but-name and respawned them for free).
Dumb question probably. Can you include ogryns, crusaders, Priest etc in am detachment with gsc? Curious to Know if I can turn my Savlar chem dogs into Savlar Scum Dogs now. (Trademark registered now for Savlar Scum Dogs)
Actually the Harlequins Mirror of Minds isn't Leadership based if I recall. It's only a straight roll off and they do a mortal wound on ties and wins. The cult one fails on a tie.
Something that was pointed out to me, the Bladed Cog might have some amusing interactions with a Void Shield Generator. Ordinarily the VSG projects a 5+ invul bubble, but the Bladed Cog in theory should bump it to a 4+ on affected models.
Karang029 wrote: Actually the Harlequins Mirror of Minds isn't Leadership based if I recall. It's only a straight roll off and they do a mortal wound on ties and wins. The cult one fails on a tie.
Checked it and you are correct. I feel silly...
Colonel Cross wrote: I heard it is D6 shots, S5, AP1, D3dmg (I could be a little off). So pretty unusable lol
It was only 8 points. If it has the indirect fire and range of the standard mortar that could still be useful.
But how is that useful on a 50pt body? I own the heavy mortars for my guard army, and they were barely usable BEFORE the hefty point bump from the earlier CA. I don't see how these would be any different for 58pts, 1 lower strength, and only 1dmg on the weapon ...
Ferryman wrote: Dumb question probably. Can you include ogryns, crusaders, Priest etc in am detachment with gsc? Curious to Know if I can turn my Savlar chem dogs into Savlar Scum Dogs now. (Trademark registered now for Savlar Scum Dogs)
Kind of no, but also very much yes. No option to share a detachment and to get detachment linked strats from them (though if you already have a AM and GC detachment - go wild). But you can add a second detachment of AM for every GC one you have replacing all regiment or scion keywords as "Brood Brother", and essentially getting the regimental trait of +1 Ld. If a unit (like Ogryns/Priests) doesn't have a regimental trait - it gets Brood Brothers, which currently has the mad consequence of now letting your order them about with officers. But don't expect that to survive the first FAQ - regiment becomes Brood Brothers and guys without a regiment get Faction Keyword Brood Brothers. So officers taken in a AM detachment could order Brood brothers in a GC detachment, but strats that effect infantry squads wouldn't work.
But for you, important thing is that there is room specifically carved out for non-regiment units to be taken in a Genestealer cult army. No AM or GC buffs though.
Red Corsair wrote:Eldar cannot do the same, they can get a nasty mind war off, but nothing close to this deadly, and not nearly as easily or in a TAC list.
The Harlequins have a clone of the power in their psychic discipline, with the same Ld. dice off -> mortal wound effect. The Eldar as a whole have a lot of ways to manipulate leadership, so the power not seeing heavy use amongst them implies in concept it isn't too strong on its own.
Mirror of mind is a straight roll off that does not add leadership into the mix. I know, I play eldar including harlequins, they absolutely cannot do anything close to what this combo achieves.
Edit: Sorry I hadn't refreshed the page in a bit and didn't see it was addressed. Nothing to feel silly over, we all make errors, theres a lot of rules interactions to juggle.
I really want the bikers to have demolition charges and people keep talking about it but I'm looking at a blurry version of the datasheet and I'm not seeing it......Can anyone confirm?
Caspian89 wrote: I really want the bikers to have demolition charges and people keep talking about it but I'm looking at a blurry version of the datasheet and I'm not seeing it......Can anyone confirm?
The datasheet for Atalan Jackals says that each biker must take two weapons from the atalan jackals weapons list. On that list are demolition charges among other things.
Just a small note, the Heavy Mining Laser is now D3 shots instead of just 1. Not sure if that makes it worth taking on a rockgrinder/ridgerunner though.
So I have spent some time of the last few days digesting the information we now have and I have had a few revelations about how our army is going to work once the codex drops.
First off, the army as we know it is now dead. That doesn't mean it is bad, but the play style is dead. We used to want to use cult ambush to get our melee units into guarantee charge range, but this is no longer the case. The best we can do is move D6 after we come from underground (which was the same as a 5 on the old ambush table). Looking through the codex leaks, we can see that now at most we can get 1 semi reliable underground charge T2 and another T3. You can set these up with A perfect Ambush and a couple of other buffs to reduce the charge range by D6+2 (D6 strat, +1 gene trait, +1 character?).
So if our cult ambush is now longer for mass melee charges then what does it do?
Well first off it is a lot more reliable. No longer can games be lost T2 because of some whacky bad luck on the cult ambush table. And on the flip side our opponents no longer feel like they cant do anything if we get insane luck on the ambush table. This removes a lot of the stress of the army and actually allows for some really good planning, which is what the cult is all about.
Because it is more reliable, but further away it naturally lends itself to shooting units. Neophytes can now ambush in mass within rapid fire range. which gives excellent screen removal We can now arrive from underground with 100 neos for just 500points and unleash 200 shots. This is incredibly powerful. Combine this with the new Biker character which gives us +1 to hit on an enemy unit (take 3 to mark up 3 enemy units) and I believe the Kelemorph gives the ability to reroll 1s in the shooting phase if he damages something gives 200 shots hitting on 3s rerolling 1s. Dont forget that against 1 enemy unit you can go up to a 2+ to if you use the new Hivecult specific stratagem. Lastly, big blobs of cheap neos can screen our other ambusing characters really well. The enemy is going to have to chew through a fair number of cultists before getting to the Patriarch behind, which means he can get a T3 charge off.
On top of this, people have already clocked onto the Acolyte fireball. using the Lying In Wait Stratagem we can Underground 1 unit within 3 inches of the enemy but not charge after. Combine this with 1pt hand flamers and the new cheaper 7pt Acolytes and for just 160 pts you can get 20d6 strength 3 autohits T2.
Also, trucks/rockgrinders have got improved now that the weapons nearly all got cheaper or better. This is a good way for us to deliver our close combat units into the fray, Now again thanks to the new cult ambush blip mechanic we can protect these assets much easier. With the ability to put down 3 false blips and the ability to move 3 just before they are revealed we can screen super effectively. Put these 6 blips on the edge of your deployment zone and you can deny the enemy a turn 1 charge with ease as they have to stay 9 inches away. Have your truck blips be 3.1 inches behind the screening blips and the enemy cannot get a turn 1 charge. Then in your turn, your units can jump out and move 9 inches towards the enemy for a sweet 3.1 inch charge Or if your enemy wants to sit back and shoot, just make sure you have some blips behind LOS blocking terrain or in terrain to reduce the effectiveness of their shooting against our delivery trucks.
Finally, we have the new bikers, these guys are super flexible and can do multiple roles. 1 way is a drive by demo unit. Being able to move 20 inches (with the new ridgerunner buggy) and throw 5 democharge is again a powerful shooting ability. Again combine this with the biker character (who has a 12" buff for them) and these guys will be hitting on 3s with d6s Str8 AP-2 shots. With these costing only 75 pts you can afford to do this 2-3 turns in a row and just throw waves of suicide bikers at high value enemy targets. Or these guys can appear underground and within rapid fire range, and dont forget their quadbike flamer has a 12" range so wont be waste from deep striking.
So putting all this together what does it mean? Essentially we have to use wave attacks. We survive T1, Either denying enemy shooting /charging as best we can and getting into position for T2, Or zoom a unit of bikers up to try and demo blast a unit to get first blood/strike. When Turn 2 drops, its game time. Masses of cultists blasting apart enemy screens and presenting a threat overload. We also have 1 of our combat blobs Perfect Ambush and charge in. Our trucks deliver their combat units and the enemy is forced into a rock and a hard place. do they shoot the cultists shooting them and who will tie them up next urn, or try and stop the combat units from making it in. Turn 3 is the Killing Blow. Another big combat squad can perfect ambush in and our truck combat units can engage the enemy. If all goes well the enemy will either be overwhelmed, or will emerge T5 battered and bruised to see small biker units, ridge runners, tucks and neos sitting on objectives.
Last comment. Our purestrains are now pointless and if you want to take genestealers then look at taking a kraken bomb. Metamorphes are now where it is at. Being able to take 5 attacks hitting on 2s rerolling 1s at strength 5-6 is incredible and I plan on picking up 2 10 man squads of these guys for only 180pts.
A rough outline of a list I have is (split into 3 battalions):
Patriarch
Magus
Magus
Primus
Iconward
Jackel Alphus
Jackel Alphus
15x Neos
15x Neos
15x Neos
15x Neos
15x Neos
15x Neos
20x Flamer Acolytes
10x Acolytes with 4x Rock Saws
10x Acolytes with 4x Rock Saws
Am I assuming correctly that Neophytes with lasgun are now Brood Brothers and don't get no creed bonuses?
I was planning to build few squads with lasguns to make them cheap units but without creed bonuses it feels pointless.
Also I don't like painting regular Neophytes so much, too much details for random guys.
For 2CP a turn though, for a 50% chance at a smite. Might be useful for an unreliable chance to finish off a key character though, or put a dent in an expensive 10 man unit like deathwatch.
I still doubt if the acolytes would be better to take them in small units with chargue bonuses (clamavus+fourarmedemperor+rerolls from broodsurge) or play 2/3 big units with perfect ambush..
Finally, we have the new bikers, these guys are super flexible and can do multiple roles. 1 way is a drive by demo unit. Being able to move 20 inches (with the new ridgerunner buggy) and throw 5 democharge is again a powerful shooting ability. Again combine this with the biker character (who has a 12" buff for them) and these guys will be hitting on 3s with d6s Str8 AP-2 shots. With these costing only 75 pts you can afford to do this 2-3 turns in a row and just throw waves of suicide bikers at high value enemy targets. Or these guys can appear underground and within rapid fire range, and dont forget their quadbike flamer has a 12" range so wont be waste from deep striking.
...
Last comment. Our purestrains are now pointless and if you want to take genestealers then look at taking a kraken bomb. Metamorphes are now where it is at. Being able to take 5 attacks hitting on 2s rerolling 1s at strength 5-6 is incredible and I plan on picking up 2 10 man squads of these guys for only 180pts.
Some clarifications to bikes: You cannot zip 20 inches and throw grenades. The rusted claw trait only allows to shoot assault weapons after advancing and not grenades. Also the grenades will potentially hit on 2+ with the Jackal Alphus buff and the strat gives +1 to hit and wound.
The purestrains are certainly worse than before but highly profit from "A perfect ambush". In comparison to metamorphs they have almost twice the staying power. And the 5 attacks hitting on 2s is not easily possible afaik. You need might from beyond, which would also be amazing on purestrains.The metamorphs hitting on 2+ you are talking about would also cost 10 pts a piece so 2x10 man squads minimum cost 200 points and not 180.
Finally, we have the new bikers, these guys are super flexible and can do multiple roles. 1 way is a drive by demo unit. Being able to move 20 inches (with the new ridgerunner buggy) and throw 5 democharge is again a powerful shooting ability. Again combine this with the biker character (who has a 12" buff for them) and these guys will be hitting on 3s with d6s Str8 AP-2 shots. With these costing only 75 pts you can afford to do this 2-3 turns in a row and just throw waves of suicide bikers at high value enemy targets. Or these guys can appear underground and within rapid fire range, and dont forget their quadbike flamer has a 12" range so wont be waste from deep striking.
...
Last comment. Our purestrains are now pointless and if you want to take genestealers then look at taking a kraken bomb. Metamorphes are now where it is at. Being able to take 5 attacks hitting on 2s rerolling 1s at strength 5-6 is incredible and I plan on picking up 2 10 man squads of these guys for only 180pts.
Some clarifications to bikes: You cannot zip 20 inches and throw grenades. The rusted claw trait only allows to shoot assault weapons after advancing and not grenades. Also the grenades will potentially hit on 2+ with the Jackal Alphus buff and the strat gives +1 to hit and wound.
The purestrains are certainly worse than before but highly profit from "A perfect ambush". In comparison to metamorphs they have almost twice the staying power. And the 5 attacks hitting on 2s is not easily possible afaik. You need might from beyond, which would also be amazing on purestrains.The metamorphs hitting on 2+ you are talking about would also cost 10 pts a piece so 2x10 man squads minimum cost 200 points and not 180.
Ah tnaks for that clarfication, I guess 14" and bomb is still good
And I was talking basic metamorphs with 5 attacks hitting on 2. Each metamorph comes with a metamorpha talon which I believe gives an extra attack and hits on 2s. you can swap your rending claw with another talon so you get another +1 attack
Finally, we have the new bikers, these guys are super flexible and can do multiple roles. 1 way is a drive by demo unit. Being able to move 20 inches (with the new ridgerunner buggy) and throw 5 democharge is again a powerful shooting ability. Again combine this with the biker character (who has a 12" buff for them) and these guys will be hitting on 3s with d6s Str8 AP-2 shots. With these costing only 75 pts you can afford to do this 2-3 turns in a row and just throw waves of suicide bikers at high value enemy targets. Or these guys can appear underground and within rapid fire range, and dont forget their quadbike flamer has a 12" range so wont be waste from deep striking.
...
Last comment. Our purestrains are now pointless and if you want to take genestealers then look at taking a kraken bomb. Metamorphes are now where it is at. Being able to take 5 attacks hitting on 2s rerolling 1s at strength 5-6 is incredible and I plan on picking up 2 10 man squads of these guys for only 180pts.
Some clarifications to bikes: You cannot zip 20 inches and throw grenades. The rusted claw trait only allows to shoot assault weapons after advancing and not grenades. Also the grenades will potentially hit on 2+ with the Jackal Alphus buff and the strat gives +1 to hit and wound.
The purestrains are certainly worse than before but highly profit from "A perfect ambush". In comparison to metamorphs they have almost twice the staying power. And the 5 attacks hitting on 2s is not easily possible afaik. You need might from beyond, which would also be amazing on purestrains.The metamorphs hitting on 2+ you are talking about would also cost 10 pts a piece so 2x10 man squads minimum cost 200 points and not 180.
Ah tnaks for that clarfication, I guess 14" and bomb is still good
And I was talking basic metamorphs with 5 attacks hitting on 2. Each metamorph comes with a metamorpha talon which I believe gives an extra attack and hits on 2s. you can swap your rending claw with another talon so you get another +1 attack
I do not think that you can swap another rending claw for the talon. But even than each talon costs 1 point extra. So the Metamorph would end up costing 11 pts and does not have any AP.
Finally, we have the new bikers, these guys are super flexible and can do multiple roles. 1 way is a drive by demo unit. Being able to move 20 inches (with the new ridgerunner buggy) and throw 5 democharge is again a powerful shooting ability. Again combine this with the biker character (who has a 12" buff for them) and these guys will be hitting on 3s with d6s Str8 AP-2 shots. With these costing only 75 pts you can afford to do this 2-3 turns in a row and just throw waves of suicide bikers at high value enemy targets. Or these guys can appear underground and within rapid fire range, and dont forget their quadbike flamer has a 12" range so wont be waste from deep striking.
...
Last comment. Our purestrains are now pointless and if you want to take genestealers then look at taking a kraken bomb. Metamorphes are now where it is at. Being able to take 5 attacks hitting on 2s rerolling 1s at strength 5-6 is incredible and I plan on picking up 2 10 man squads of these guys for only 180pts.
Some clarifications to bikes: You cannot zip 20 inches and throw grenades. The rusted claw trait only allows to shoot assault weapons after advancing and not grenades. Also the grenades will potentially hit on 2+ with the Jackal Alphus buff and the strat gives +1 to hit and wound.
The purestrains are certainly worse than before but highly profit from "A perfect ambush". In comparison to metamorphs they have almost twice the staying power. And the 5 attacks hitting on 2s is not easily possible afaik. You need might from beyond, which would also be amazing on purestrains.The metamorphs hitting on 2+ you are talking about would also cost 10 pts a piece so 2x10 man squads minimum cost 200 points and not 180.
Ah tnaks for that clarfication, I guess 14" and bomb is still good
And I was talking basic metamorphs with 5 attacks hitting on 2. Each metamorph comes with a metamorpha talon which I believe gives an extra attack and hits on 2s. you can swap your rending claw with another talon so you get another +1 attack
I do not think that you can swap another rending claw for the talon. But even than each talon costs 1 point extra. So the Metamorph would end up costing 11 pts and does not have any AP.
I could be wrong also, but from watching the SS82 video I think all the metamorph weapons apart from the metamorph claw is free (the claw costs 4 points per model) and you can for sure take 2 on 1 guy. You come with a meta talon, rending claw and sutopistol and you can swap the rending claw for another meta talon
Any way of getting bonuses to wound in shooting on the acolyte flamer bomb? I guess the 'old grudges' warlord trait is an option if you chose one target.
If you picked a knight as the target of this and got a full squad to shoot it while getting double shots and old grudges you'd do about 14 wounds
Just love the idea of a knight being flamered to death, never mind what the combo does to infantry
DoomMouse wrote: Any way of getting bonuses to wound in shooting on the acolyte flamer bomb? I guess the 'old grudges' warlord trait is an option if you chose one target.
If you picked a knight as the target of this and got a full squad to shoot it while getting double shots and old grudges you'd do about 14 wounds
Just love the idea of a knight being flamered to death, never mind what the combo does to infantry
A primus can let them reroll 1s to wound, when he is close by against a certain target.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another possibility to try biker:
- Pauper princes (reroll to hit)
- Might from beyond on the bikers
- give them cultist knives and/or power picks
They should do quite okayish damage against most targets.
Colonel Cross wrote: I heard it is D6 shots, S5, AP1, D1. So pretty unusable lol
(fixed weapon profile)
Ah. Yeah, probably a pass on that one for me. You'd want to use that in tandem with the augur array for ignore cover, but then you'd be a 68 point model that when shooting at their perfect target (guardsmen in cover which you then get to ignore) sees a 13.5% points return. Oof.
Even if you make it a more reasonably priced GEQ target like a guardian/kabalite/fire warrior etc, your points return is abysmal compared to what you can get for chaff clearing elsewhere in the 'dex.
Yeah, not looking terribly great for the ol ridgerunner. Best use I can come up with is to just equip him with the lasers, scout move him up so he can be stationary turn 1, and pair him with a jackal alphus buffing up all your goliaths full of neophytes (buffs the guys inside because it's a modifier to hit and not a re-roll)
Only thing I can say for it over the rockgrinder is that it's more willing to hang back and be a stationary gunline element. but I don't see much of a compelling reason to actually run as a gunline unless you're doing it for fluffy purposes, because just going balls to the wall deep strike alpha is still the best way to play GSC. Three attempts at the cult ambush system and they haven't managed to make the army not a one-note charge machine.
Colonel Cross wrote: I heard it is D6 shots, S5, AP1, D1. So pretty unusable lol
(fixed weapon profile)
Ah. Yeah, probably a pass on that one for me. You'd want to use that in tandem with the augur array for ignore cover, but then you'd be a 68 point model that when shooting at their perfect target (guardsmen in cover which you then get to ignore) sees a 13.5% points return. Oof.
Even if you make it a more reasonably priced GEQ target like a guardian/kabalite/fire warrior etc, your points return is abysmal compared to what you can get for chaff clearing elsewhere in the 'dex.
Yeah, not looking terribly great for the ol ridgerunner. Best use I can come up with is to just equip him with the lasers, scout move him up so he can be stationary turn 1, and pair him with a jackal alphus buffing up all your goliaths full of neophytes (buffs the guys inside because it's a modifier to hit and not a re-roll)
Only thing I can say for it over the rockgrinder is that it's more willing to hang back and be a stationary gunline element. but I don't see much of a compelling reason to actually run as a gunline unless you're doing it for fluffy purposes, because just going balls to the wall deep strike alpha is still the best way to play GSC. Three attempts at the cult ambush system and they haven't managed to make the army not a one-note charge machine.
Imho it will be pretty important to clear screens and chaff turn 1. The ridgerunner will be one of the things doing that, since we do not have so much t1 long ranged fire power. You could either use Leman Russ, HWT, Ridgerunner, Atalans or the transports. But then the transports have to move and will thus be shooting quite inefficiently.
So for me there will be definitely a case for running a ridgerunner.
More problematic seems to be that you can just reasonably use them with a lot of vehicles. Otherwise they die immediately.
Colonel Cross wrote: I heard it is D6 shots, S5, AP1, D1. So pretty unusable lol
(fixed weapon profile)
Ah. Yeah, probably a pass on that one for me. You'd want to use that in tandem with the augur array for ignore cover, but then you'd be a 68 point model that when shooting at their perfect target (guardsmen in cover which you then get to ignore) sees a 13.5% points return. Oof.
Even if you make it a more reasonably priced GEQ target like a guardian/kabalite/fire warrior etc, your points return is abysmal compared to what you can get for chaff clearing elsewhere in the 'dex.
Yeah, not looking terribly great for the ol ridgerunner. Best use I can come up with is to just equip him with the lasers, scout move him up so he can be stationary turn 1, and pair him with a jackal alphus buffing up all your goliaths full of neophytes (buffs the guys inside because it's a modifier to hit and not a re-roll)
Only thing I can say for it over the rockgrinder is that it's more willing to hang back and be a stationary gunline element. but I don't see much of a compelling reason to actually run as a gunline unless you're doing it for fluffy purposes, because just going balls to the wall deep strike alpha is still the best way to play GSC. Three attempts at the cult ambush system and they haven't managed to make the army not a one-note charge machine.
Imho it will be pretty important to clear screens and chaff turn 1. The ridgerunner will be one of the things doing that, since we do not have so much t1 long ranged fire power. You could either use Leman Russ, HWT, Ridgerunner, Atalans or the transports. But then the transports have to move and will thus be shooting quite inefficiently.
So for me there will be definitely a case for running a ridgerunner.
More problematic seems to be that you can just reasonably use them with a lot of vehicles. Otherwise they die immediately.
I would much much rather use any of the following for that job:
-Neophytes with webbers in a goliath
-atalan jackals with shotgun+autogun
-A goliath rockgrinder with a clearance incinerator advancing
-A cult leman russ with a shooty loadout
-Allied brood brothers punishers/wyverns/HWT mortars/infantry squads with FRFSRF/literally anything in the guard codex
All of those have far better points return punching at chaff than the ridgerunner with mortar and stubbers. It is a model that costs 63 points minimum equipped with less armament than a chimera.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Heck, if you want to bypass the half-CP thing, bring a brood brothers supreme command with a company commander and 2 punisher tank commanders. The company commander can issue orders to brood bro infantry squads you bring in your GSC detachments that give full CPs, you still get your 1cp for the supcom detachment since you round up, and if you want, you can throw in a unit of order-able bullgryns if that gaks your giggles.
"Hey bullgryns, how about you move 24" in a turn!"
Colonel Cross wrote: I heard it is D6 shots, S5, AP1, D1. So pretty unusable lol
(fixed weapon profile)
Ah. Yeah, probably a pass on that one for me. You'd want to use that in tandem with the augur array for ignore cover, but then you'd be a 68 point model that when shooting at their perfect target (guardsmen in cover which you then get to ignore) sees a 13.5% points return. Oof.
Even if you make it a more reasonably priced GEQ target like a guardian/kabalite/fire warrior etc, your points return is abysmal compared to what you can get for chaff clearing elsewhere in the 'dex.
Yeah, not looking terribly great for the ol ridgerunner. Best use I can come up with is to just equip him with the lasers, scout move him up so he can be stationary turn 1, and pair him with a jackal alphus buffing up all your goliaths full of neophytes (buffs the guys inside because it's a modifier to hit and not a re-roll)
Only thing I can say for it over the rockgrinder is that it's more willing to hang back and be a stationary gunline element. but I don't see much of a compelling reason to actually run as a gunline unless you're doing it for fluffy purposes, because just going balls to the wall deep strike alpha is still the best way to play GSC. Three attempts at the cult ambush system and they haven't managed to make the army not a one-note charge machine.
Imho it will be pretty important to clear screens and chaff turn 1. The ridgerunner will be one of the things doing that, since we do not have so much t1 long ranged fire power. You could either use Leman Russ, HWT, Ridgerunner, Atalans or the transports. But then the transports have to move and will thus be shooting quite inefficiently.
So for me there will be definitely a case for running a ridgerunner.
More problematic seems to be that you can just reasonably use them with a lot of vehicles. Otherwise they die immediately.
I would much much rather use any of the following for that job:
-Neophytes with webbers in a goliath
-atalan jackals with shotgun+autogun
-A goliath rockgrinder with a clearance incinerator advancing
-A cult leman russ with a shooty loadout
-Allied brood brothers punishers/wyverns/HWT mortars/infantry squads with FRFSRF/literally anything in the guard codex
All of those have far better points return punching at chaff than the ridgerunner with mortar and stubbers. It is a model that costs 63 points minimum equipped with less armament than a chimera.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Heck, if you want to bypass the half-CP thing, bring a brood brothers supreme command with a company commander and 2 punisher tank commanders. The company commander can issue orders to brood bro infantry squads you bring in your GSC detachments that give full CPs, you still get your 1cp for the supcom detachment since you round up, and if you want, you can throw in a unit of order-able bullgryns if that gaks your giggles.
"Hey bullgryns, how about you move 24" in a turn!"
"OK now fight twice, good lads."
- Neophytes in a Goliath do work, but their damage output is not so much better than the ridgerunner and are much more expensive
- Again: Atalan Jackals cannot have a autogun unless they are the leader. So they only have some shotgun shots, which will be S3. Because you cannot get closer turn 1.
- Clearance incinerator is heavy so that does not work.
- cult leman russ and brood brothers in general work. I would argue that dakka-fexes do the thing better.
By the way I would use the ridgerunner with heavy mining laser anyway. The heavy mortar is really not good.
I'm sorry, you can say "again" but you're still wrong about the autogun/shotgun jackals. The images are up on page 2, both the screencap of the unit entry and a scan of the wargear list.
If you read the unit entry it says " only the Atalan leader can take an autogun, bolt pistol or power axe"
Seems pretty clear cut to me. And i seriously think you are kidding yourself if you think the extra 10-20 str 3 shots were killing a whole lot.
All good, homie. We're all hyped for things, I made a very similar mistake last night when I saw the gear list. I think it's worded very poorly, and other codexes typically have a "SARGEANT ONLY" section, which this doesn't.
Cephalobeard wrote: All good, homie. We're all hyped for things, I made a very similar mistake last night when I saw the gear list. I think it's worded very poorly, and other codexes typically have a "SARGEANT ONLY" section, which this doesn't.
KurtAngle2 wrote: Every Atalan can take Shotgun + Autogun, end of story. I posted the image above and you can check by yourself
So, by end of story, do you mean: "If we ignore the rules written on the unit, that state ONLY THIS ONE MODEL CAN TAKE IT"?
"Only one in every four of these models can take a grenade launcher, AND only the Atalan Leader can take an autogun, bolt pistol, or power axe."
It's almost, almost, as though they gave a large wargear section because the leader doesn't HAVE to take one, and as such wrote it giving you a multitude of options, but clearly wrote the restrictions on the rules for the unit.
Cephalobeard wrote: All good, homie. We're all hyped for things, I made a very similar mistake last night when I saw the gear list. I think it's worded very poorly, and other codexes typically have a "SARGEANT ONLY" section, which this doesn't.
Yep, I was looking for the usual superscript "1" next to the weapons list that is usually how GW puts in the sergeant-only options. Either that or they put sergeant only options on their own line. The way this is formatted is different to anything I've ever seen except for a couple instances.
blurgh. Guess these guys really are a worse version of rough riders.
KurtAngle2 wrote: Every Atalan can take Shotgun + Autogun, end of story. I posted the image above and you can check by yourself
So, by end of story, do you mean: "If we ignore the rules written on the unit, that state ONLY THIS ONE MODEL CAN TAKE IT"?
"Only one in every four of these models can take a grenade launcher, AND only the Atalan Leader can take an autogun, bolt pistol, or power axe."
It's almost, almost, as though they gave a large wargear section because the leader doesn't HAVE to take one, and as such wrote it giving you a multitude of options, but clearly wrote the restrictions on the rules for the unit.
It's a badly written rule because it means that the Atalan Leader can only take these 3 weapons (and not that ONLY HE can take them). If you put it up the way you read it there's no reason to ever include Autoguns/Bolt Pistols/Power axes in the ATALAN WEAPONS LIST.
Also if you check the Kit you've got multiples of these weapons, they literally misplaced the word "only"
Cephalobeard wrote: So, to clarify, to reach the conclusion you're after we have to remove the word included in the rules?
I'm not doing that. If their INTENT is something else, they can clarify it, but RAW the word ONLY is included, and that's the rule.
Also the sprue doesn't "Include multiple autoguns", it includes two, simply by virtue of there being TWO identical sprues.
Actually you might be right, it doesn't even include doubles for these 3 weapons (only multiple Shotguns and Autopistols though so if we think this way we wouldn't be able to equip multiple melee weapons)
Yeah. The way it's worded is to give the Leader options, as in ONLY THEY can take the better options (Autoguns, etc), but they CAN still take other things.
See: My list, I'm using all Knvies and Shotguns. They have a wider range of wargear, but it's restricted by the rule on the Leader.
It's weird, they don't word it this way for anyone else, but (to me) that's how it seems to be.
They're literally telling us to Play Cultist Knife + Shotguns (Twisted Helix or Pauper Princes) or Shotguns + Demolition Charges (if Rusted Claw) at this point
I think there are more options feasible for the bikes.
1.) Cultist knife + power pick/hammer eg for pauper prince or twisted helix
2.) cultist knife + Demo charge for any trait
3.) 2x autopistol + cultist knife maybe. They come with one pistol stock
Honestly, I can't read what the text in that blurry picture says--if it's "ANY model" can pick two weapons, then I'd guess duplicate sprues since they can have everyone with different things.
DoomMouse wrote: Just a thought - can allied brood brother IG company commanders issue orders to GSC brood brother infantry squads that are in a GSC detachment?
Logic would say yes, but I could see there being some sort of keyword mess up.
I think 100+ guardsmen with FRFSRF and 3 mortar teams would go a long way to clearing chaff turn 1 so our killy units can drop onto something tasty.
You replace <regiment> with Brood Brothers in all instances, so the voice of command ability becomes "may issue 2 orders to friendly Brood Brothers infantry each turn"
So, yes, they would be able to issue orders to BBs in a GSC detachment.
I really like the Tank Commander/Company Commander/Company Commander supreme command paired with a GSC brigade with some brood bro infantry squads.
DoomMouse wrote: Just a thought - can allied brood brother IG company commanders issue orders to GSC brood brother infantry squads that are in a GSC detachment?
Logic would say yes, but I could see there being some sort of keyword mess up.
I think 100+ guardsmen with FRFSRF and 3 mortar teams would go a long way to clearing chaff turn 1 so our killy units can drop onto something tasty.
You replace <regiment> with Brood Brothers in all instances, so the voice of command ability becomes "may issue 2 orders to friendly Brood Brothers infantry each turn"
So, yes, they would be able to issue orders to BBs in a GSC detachment.
I really like the Tank Commander/Company Commander/Company Commander supreme command paired with a GSC brigade with some brood bro infantry squads.
Cheers, sounds great! TBH I'll probably run a AM battalion still - 3CP isn't too bad if all it forces you to take are some of the most efficient troops in the game
Arkengate wrote: So far, do yall think Neophytes will have Autoguns or Shotguns?
What weapons do you think the Metamorphs will be using the most?
I think it depends on your taste. Personally I like shotguns, and as a less obnoxious version of the acolyte handflamer bomb I will probably run my 20 neophytes with shotguns+2 flamers and use the stratagem to move them in close as a chaff clearing tool. my meta is nowhere near competitive enough to handle the handflamer bomb nonsense.
best loadout is probably webbers+web pistol with autoguns either out of a goliath or DS-ing. If you're going rusty claw you can consider the heavy weapons. Maybe heavy stubbers are worth since it's only 2pts for upping the shots to 3 and strength to 4 but you become bs5+ on the turn you come in.
Bad odds hand flamers remain that good in the long run either I'm betting. They should be 2-3pts but not 1ppm. Irrelevant for now, as it is what it is, but currently there is almost zero reason not to take a HF on every acolyte you run, which is horrible game design. You can't discount the defensive perk they provide as well. Who wants to eat that many auto hits every time they try to assault them?
That said, I like one unit with shotguns on neophytes, I have a 20 man with an icon and 2 flamers I was having success with pre codex. They all die horribly but they are cheap and get the job done usually. I wouldn't run all my neophyte that way though, and bare in mind I own 100 of the fethers, so for me it's easy to say why not 20 shotguns. I think the easier unit to use, that does what you want is the autogun unit. Without strats they both perform the same from reserve within 12" but the autoguns are obviously better when that isn't an option and you are further away. I also tend to like the grenade launcher the most for special weapons. Webbers caught my eye though, the only problem I am having with them is the opportunity cost, because 1pt is crazy good for what it does.
To discuss the achilles again for a minute, I think maybe folks hadn't realized the HML is d3 shots now. With it's scout move this thing shouldn't need to move turn 1. With an average of 2 shots from the HML you average a hit per turn before any mods. Plus you get the 6 HS shots. For me this makes them solid. A sentinel with las canon is 55 pts, and would take a pair to average the same result before counting the HS shots. I am not suggesting the Ridge runner is a replacement for sentinels, but I plan on running 1-2 along with my HF scout sentinels. To compare it to another unit, 10 neos with 2 ML come to 74pts, very similar damage output but lacks the ability to bring it to bare turn1 without a lot of assistance and is much more fragile to small arms. I think it's worth considering a bit more.
In regards to the jackals I think a large unit from helix with psychic stimulus is better then folks are expecting. It's is no unit of abbs, but the unit is also dirt cheap and gets in turn 1 and has reasonable damage output. BTW it also combos with the achilles well, the flares can give them that auto 6" advance turn 1, +2" from helix. That's a 22" move before assaulting. Great harassing unit.
Red Corsair wrote: Bad odds hand flamers remain that good in the long run either I'm betting. They should be 2-3pts but not 1ppm. Irrelevant for now, as it is what it is, but currently there is almost zero reason not to take a HF on every acolyte you run, which is horrible game design. You can't discount the defensive perk they provide as well. Who wants to eat that many auto hits every time they try to assault them?
That said, I like one unit with shotguns on neophytes, I have a 20 man with an icon and 2 flamers I was having success with pre codex. They all die horribly but they are cheap and get the job done usually. I wouldn't run all my neophyte that way though, and bare in mind I own 100 of the fethers, so for me it's easy to say why not 20 shotguns. I think the easier unit to use, that does what you want is the autogun unit. Without strats they both perform the same from reserve within 12" but the autoguns are obviously better when that isn't an option and you are further away. I also tend to like the grenade launcher the most for special weapons. Webbers caught my eye though, the only problem I am having with them is the opportunity cost, because 1pt is crazy good for what it does.
To discuss the achilles again for a minute, I think maybe folks hadn't realized the HML is d3 shots now. With it's scout move this thing shouldn't need to move turn 1. With an average of 2 shots from the HML you average a hit per turn before any mods. Plus you get the 6 HS shots. For me this makes them solid. A sentinel with las canon is 55 pts, and would take a pair to average the same result before counting the HS shots. I am not suggesting the Ridge runner is a replacement for sentinels, but I plan on running 1-2 along with my HF scout sentinels. To compare it to another unit, 10 neos with 2 ML come to 74pts, very similar damage output but lacks the ability to bring it to bare turn1 without a lot of assistance and is much more fragile to small arms. I think it's worth considering a bit more.
In regards to the jackals I think a large unit from helix with psychic stimulus is better then folks are expecting. It's is no unit of abbs, but the unit is also dirt cheap and gets in turn 1 and has reasonable damage output. BTW it also combos with the achilles well, the flares can give them that auto 6" advance turn 1, +2" from helix. That's a 22" move before assaulting. Great harassing unit.
I agree with you on everything. It also just came to my mind that ridgerunners are probably already worth it just by pushing back scouts and the like of other armies by deploying. That is huge for GSC, because they do not want to be blocked by scouts.
I am not sure how scout interacts with Cult Ambush from the wording. It seems like they cannot be used in combination.
Posted this in the previous thread but just want to confirm if this works.
So as an Astra Milltarum player I noticed something interesting in the blood brothers rules that could be pretty useful.
"These AM detachments are then known as Brood Brother detachments, and every unit in them that has the <Regiment> or Militarum Tempestus keyword must replace it in every instance with Brood Brothers (if a unit doesn't have either of these keywords it simply gains the Brood Brothers keyword)."
Assuming this is the correct wording. Leads to some interesting combo ideas. This would allow Bullgryns, Ogyrns, and Ratlings to receive orders. The Taurox Prime becomes usable for all AM models. And while the codex special Orders can't be used the ones from DKoK and EDT can be. Also the Sabre Weapon Platform will now work With Tempestus, DKOK, and Elysians.
So this is kinda silly and might not be worth it but you could load up a Valk With a 10 man Combat Engineer Squad with a Melta bomb on the sarge. Put in an Elysian Platoon Commander in the Valk as well. Zoom the Squad to their target 9" away and Grav-Shute them in. Move the unit up 6" (So they should be just over 3" away) then have the Platoon Comander give them the "Move and Fire" order turning all there weapons to Assault. That would include their Grenade Weapons. So the Squad would then get 20 shotguns, 10 Frag Genades, 10 Krak Grenades, 10 Acid Bombs, and 1 Melta Bomb. Toss in a Sabre weapons Platform to have them hitting on 2+.
Don't plan on that one surviving a FAQ. I doubt the intent was to allow BB to give orders to AM units better then AM proper lol. Again, for now have fun with it, but I would rather make battle plans based on a conservative approach to the rules lawyering.
Niiai wrote: What is a good use for the hand flamers? In a car?
Literally any use you normally could apply to acolytes. As I said earlier at 1ppm they are never not a good option. So really it is up to your preferred play style. In a truck would work, so does ambushing and so does just letting them fire overwatch lol.
Red Corsair wrote: Don't plan on that one surviving a FAQ. I doubt the intent was to allow BB to give orders to AM units better then AM proper lol. Again, for now have fun with it, but I would rather make battle plans based on a conservative approach to the rules lawyering.
At least one leak indicated that BB cannot give or receive orders from any source
Has anyone considered a gunslinger and a 9 man bare bones acolyte squad in a goliath truck.
Protected by blip 1st turn
Rushes any enemy unit foolish enough to move toward us
Blasts away with 9 pistols, the gunslinger and a demo cashe as well as vechicle weapons. Next turn disembarks and moves into assault position and blasts away again as the rest of your DS comes in to play. That's some significant disruption and it's fairly durable to boot.
Might be a silly question, but how do you keep your characters alive? The Alphus can just hang back so she's quite safe. But what about the Primus, the Kelermorph, the Clamavus and the Magus? The perfect ambush strat will only allow ONE unit to move D6, so if we bring in a unit of 10 Acolytes with saws and a Primus they'll leave him behind, kill their target and then get shot off the table, making the Primus an easy target. Same goes for the Clamavus. And the Gunslinger wants to be quite close to the enemy as well.
At 40 points a Locus might not be bad to protect the Primus for a bit. And since Webbers have gotten better I could see cheap ten men Neophyte squads with Webbers screening a Magus etc. Make them Rusted Claw for more durability.
Still though, it seems tough for me to make my characters last. I play against Orks a lot and those Evil Suns are so incredibly fast that they'll reach any character they want.
On another note:
What combos do we have now? Here are the ones from the top of my mind:
- Broodsurge Iconward + Clamavus (+4AE) to give Acolytes +2" to their charge, so they need to make a re-rollable 7" charge when they pop up.
- Patriarch + 1 a s WT + Twisted Helix relic + MfB. Gives you a S8 Patriarch with 9 attacks.
- Rusted Claw Bikers w/ Demo Charges + Alpha + drive-by strat + more explosives strat. Enjoy 5D6 S8 AP-3 D3 shots that hit on 2s and wound most things on 2+.
1. What enables charges from the reserves? Stratagem for 3 CP, the character that ads +1 to charge. What else? I know I am missing something. Four armed emperor?
2. What are the good shooting units?
3. What does the primus add in the new codex?
4. What unique things do they bring to the table? I thought of the following.
Charging from reserves.
Hammer abominations + hammer character.
Regaining CP.
Very good psykick powers.(Needs primus and magus.)
Sniping anti psyker assassin.
Jakalid character shooting boosts for GSC.
The pistol folk hero.
Causalis wrote: Might be a silly question, but how do you keep your characters alive? The Alphus can just hang back so she's quite safe. But what about the Primus, the Kelermorph, the Clamavus and the Magus? The perfect ambush strat will only allow ONE unit to move D6, so if we bring in a unit of 10 Acolytes with saws and a Primus they'll leave him behind, kill their target and then get shot off the table, making the Primus an easy target. Same goes for the Clamavus. And the Gunslinger wants to be quite close to the enemy as well.
At 40 points a Locus might not be bad to protect the Primus for a bit. And since Webbers have gotten better I could see cheap ten men Neophyte squads with Webbers screening a Magus etc. Make them Rusted Claw for more durability.
Still though, it seems tough for me to make my characters last. I play against Orks a lot and those Evil Suns are so incredibly fast that they'll reach any character they want.
On another note:
What combos do we have now? Here are the ones from the top of my mind:
- Broodsurge Iconward + Clamavus (+4AE) to give Acolytes +2" to their charge, so they need to make a re-rollable 7" charge when they pop up.
- Patriarch + 1 a s WT + Twisted Helix relic + MfB. Gives you a S8 Patriarch with 9 attacks.
- Rusted Claw Bikers w/ Demo Charges + Alpha + drive-by strat + more explosives strat. Enjoy 5D6 S8 AP-3 D3 shots that hit on 2s and wound most things on 2+.
Would love to hear which other combos we got!
Don't forget the banner relic, to get that patriarch up to S9
In regard to protecting characters, you should/could drop in 20 other bodies to protect the characters. So CP ambush your alpha unit with characters +20 neophytes in support range. Fast scouting units can also get in range to screen by t2.
Red Corsair wrote: Don't plan on that one surviving a FAQ. I doubt the intent was to allow BB to give orders to AM units better then AM proper lol. Again, for now have fun with it, but I would rather make battle plans based on a conservative approach to the rules lawyering.
At least one leak indicated that BB cannot give or receive orders from any source
I've heard this from a couple reviewers too, but they weren't clear if it was only special regimental orders or all orders — the latter would be a huge nerf to brood brothers detachments on top of the half-CP.
Anyone able to see the brood brothers codex page to confirm?
Niiai wrote: What is a good use for the hand flamers? In a car?
Literally any use you normally could apply to acolytes. As I said earlier at 1ppm they are never not a good option. So really it is up to your preferred play style. In a truck would work, so does ambushing and so does just letting them fire overwatch lol.
I don't see the handflamers as being a huge overwatch threat. Still only 6" range right? So enemies charging them will just step back and go for a 6" charge. Or depending on positioning, maneuver into a closer position where they're only taking fire from a couple of models.
The 8" range from most flamers is a little harder to get around, as the chances of making an 8" charge aren't so good.
6" though? That's something like a 72% chance of success. Not bad odds.
Red Corsair wrote: Don't plan on that one surviving a FAQ. I doubt the intent was to allow BB to give orders to AM units better then AM proper lol. Again, for now have fun with it, but I would rather make battle plans based on a conservative approach to the rules lawyering.
At least one leak indicated that BB cannot give or receive orders from any source
I've heard this from a couple reviewers too, but they weren't clear if it was only special regimental orders or all orders — the latter would be a huge nerf to brood brothers detachments on top of the half-CP.
Anyone able to see the brood brothers codex page to confirm?
It's regiment specific orders.
A few reviews got several things wrong.
The BOLS review on youtube gives you a good look of the page at 11:31
Danny slag wrote:Where's everyone who was losing their mind and getting pissy over me pointing out how a light vehicle with a low number of shots weapon and 5+ to hit isn't good?
How many ridgerunners are your getting? Your foot taste good?
It only hits on a 5+ if it moves, which realistically it shouldn't have to do often since all of its weapon systems have a 36+'' reach and it has no incentive or reason to move towards the foe outside of last-minute objective grabs.
I'm probably going to get 3-6 of the things personally. I was running lists with 8-9 Goliath hulls out of the index and I figure I should be able to get that hull count up to 12 or maybe even 15 between the price drops and the Achilles. Defensively it is another Goliath hull (with its flare launcher) that wants to sit back in midfield and shoot. No other vehicle available has that combination, plus as a <cult> unit it benefits from a Jackal Alphus.
So you're going to take a scout vehicle to sit in the back and snipe? Which even doing so would still only land maybe 1-2 shots per game. I get it, you want them to be cool because the miniatures are amazingly designed. But you're being obtuse, any sane person who's played any 40k immediately looks at those stats and knows it's bad. That's like saying "you could use acolytes as a shooting unit because they have autopistols" sure you could...but all you're doing is using something at something it's terrible at just as an excuse to try to use it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Colonel Cross wrote: But how is that useful on a 50pt body? I own the heavy mortars for my guard army, and they were barely usable BEFORE the hefty point bump from the earlier CA. I don't see how these would be any different for 58pts, 1 lower strength, and only 1dmg on the weapon ...
Exactly. It's a complete waste of points for a unit that really has no purpose, there's nothing it accomplishes.
Also the sprue doesn't "Include multiple autoguns", it includes two, simply by virtue of there being TWO identical sprues.
I would wait until the box is actually out before saying this--we've had sprues missing from quite a few webstore breakdowns before.
So there are two different sprues in the Jackals box, and you can make all four bikes and the wolfquad with them. There aren't any identical sprues — it says there's only 89 components in the box, and that matches what they've shown us on the webstore.
But yeah, there's only a single autogun in the kit (along with only one power axe/bolt pistol), which lines up with the idea that only the Jackal leader can take those items.
I don't think the lascannon ridge runner is terrible, either with spotter or flare. Not a tournament piece but if you run mechanized cult I think it's not so bad.
The mortar just puts out awful firepower. Would you take a chimera for 20pts less with no transport 3 fewer wounds -2T and 4+? Hml at least gives it some teeth.
the_scotsman wrote: I don't think the lascannon ridge runner is terrible, either with spotter or flare. Not a tournament piece but if you run mechanized cult I think it's not so bad.
The mortar just puts out awful firepower. Would you take a chimera for 20pts less with no transport 3 fewer wounds -2T and 4+? Hml at least gives it some teeth.
If you want it cheap at least go ML.
Not disagreeing with you on the mortar at all, it's a strange weapon for it to have access too, and just doesn't fit. Luckily the HML is solid and the ML doesn't seem to bad either if you want to go cheaper.
However I'll say it again, this army greatly benefits from scouting units to occupy the table early if you aren't using the rhino rush strategy, or leaning on hive fleet kraken stealer shock. Even then I would consider taking 1 or 2. Scout sentinels generally were the go to and since the CA point decrease nobody has had any bad things to say about them in the guard thread. Again I feel it's worth repeating that a scout sentinel with LC is 55 points, it has 6 t5 wounds with a 4+ save and moves 9" wit ha 9" scout move. The ridge runner averages double the las canon shots + has 2 heavy stubbers with 8 t5 4+ wounds and a 6+++ and moves 14" for 84 points, and also scouts 9", it also can slingshot jackals up the table for a turn 1 assault. If you don't require the HML it pretty much has a guaranteed turn 1 charge. Would they kill anything in assaulting in such a manner? No way, but two of these hitting first turn with their bases turned on the side have a long footprint which would allow you to pin your opponents screen in their deployment. That is a very big deal, I used this trick with sentinels a couple times, issue being they move 5" slower and have a smaller footprint so it wasn't consistent, this remedies that. BTW sentinels are also very good for this still, I think they are pretty much equal.
I don't want anyone to think I am saying they need these things. But to declare them totally none viable is a bit extreme. I plan on running 1 or 2 (depending on my final list) in conjunction with said sentinels, only I will run the sentinels with heavy flamers. I feel like a larger unit of jackals sling shotting up with these units will make a good early game disruption force. You need to remember, we need at least half our stuff on the table, I want that stuff to be very fast. Its a death trap needing to highland charge half your stuff up the board first turn with zero possibility of getting in your opponents face.
I am all ears to any other ideas for occupying table space in the same/similar manner first turn without leaning on the guard book, at least initially. If I can make the GSC work I'd like to stay there, epsecially given the CP nerf to guard battalions.
the_scotsman wrote: I don't think the lascannon ridge runner is terrible, either with spotter or flare. Not a tournament piece but if you run mechanized cult I think it's not so bad.
The mortar just puts out awful firepower. Would you take a chimera for 20pts less with no transport 3 fewer wounds -2T and 4+? Hml at least gives it some teeth.
If you want it cheap at least go ML.
Not disagreeing with you on the mortar at all, it's a strange weapon for it to have access too, and just doesn't fit. Luckily the HML is solid and the ML doesn't seem to bad either if you want to go cheaper.
However I'll say it again, this army greatly benefits from scouting units to occupy the table early if you aren't using the rhino rush strategy, or leaning on hive fleet kraken stealer shock. Even then I would consider taking 1 or 2. Scout sentinels generally were the go to and since the CA point decrease nobody has had any bad things to say about them in the guard thread. Again I feel it's worth repeating that a scout sentinel with LC is 55 points, it has 6 t5 wounds with a 4+ save and moves 9" wit ha 9" scout move. The ridge runner averages double the las canon shots + has 2 heavy stubbers with 8 t5 4+ wounds and a 6+++ and moves 14" for 84 points, and also scouts 9", it also can slingshot jackals up the table for a turn 1 assault. If you don't require the HML it pretty much has a guaranteed turn 1 charge. Would they kill anything in assaulting in such a manner? No way, but two of these hitting first turn with their bases turned on the side have a long footprint which would allow you to pin your opponents screen in their deployment. That is a very big deal, I used this trick with sentinels a couple times, issue being they move 5" slower and have a smaller footprint so it wasn't consistent, this remedies that. BTW sentinels are also very good for this still, I think they are pretty much equal.
I don't want anyone to think I am saying they need these things. But to declare them totally none viable is a bit extreme. I plan on running 1 or 2 (depending on my final list) in conjunction with said sentinels, only I will run the sentinels with heavy flamers. I feel like a larger unit of jackals sling shotting up with these units will make a good early game disruption force. You need to remember, we need at least half our stuff on the table, I want that stuff to be very fast. Its a death trap needing to highland charge half your stuff up the board first turn with zero possibility of getting in your opponents face.
I am all ears to any other ideas for occupying table space in the same/similar manner first turn without leaning on the guard book, at least initially. If I can make the GSC work I'd like to stay there, epsecially given the CP nerf to guard battalions.
Oh if you're considering lascannon sentinels then yeah 100% take the ridgerunner instead. I was considering multilaser sentinels for my screening purposes, because if they fulfil their intended role (stopping something like a Da Jump/genestealer rush from impacting my lines turn 1) then they just die, and I want them as cheap as they can go. Plus they fill brigade slots.
Honestly just the ability to take 3 scout sentinels and 3 mortar HWT might ironically be the biggest buff this army got for competitive play, lol. Aberrant wombo-combos are great but we could ace knights with just annointed throng before.
Armored Sentinels w/ Autocannons also come in at the same price as 4 Bikes, which makes them a worthy consideration.
I'm still on board the "definitely not ridgerunners" train, because I don't see their benefit as being as tangible as we've described, compared to just doing other things, but time will tell.
I am going to write up a review after LVO. I decided to wait so I don't confuse rules for LVO as that might happen. So much more information there.
That said, I have mixed feeling about the book so far. Want to go line by line, they also will need to FAQ a lot of things and how they work.
Big items that need more clarification
- Brood Brother and mechanics with orders/regiments
- Patriarch does he have unquestioning loyalty or not?
- Weapon options for the Jackal
- How do the stratagems work before ambush markers and such
- How does scout work with the ambush markers?
the_scotsman wrote: I don't think the lascannon ridge runner is terrible, either with spotter or flare. Not a tournament piece but if you run mechanized cult I think it's not so bad.
The mortar just puts out awful firepower. Would you take a chimera for 20pts less with no transport 3 fewer wounds -2T and 4+? Hml at least gives it some teeth.
If you want it cheap at least go ML.
Not disagreeing with you on the mortar at all, it's a strange weapon for it to have access too, and just doesn't fit. Luckily the HML is solid and the ML doesn't seem to bad either if you want to go cheaper.
However I'll say it again, this army greatly benefits from scouting units to occupy the table early if you aren't using the rhino rush strategy, or leaning on hive fleet kraken stealer shock. Even then I would consider taking 1 or 2. Scout sentinels generally were the go to and since the CA point decrease nobody has had any bad things to say about them in the guard thread. Again I feel it's worth repeating that a scout sentinel with LC is 55 points, it has 6 t5 wounds with a 4+ save and moves 9" wit ha 9" scout move. The ridge runner averages double the las canon shots + has 2 heavy stubbers with 8 t5 4+ wounds and a 6+++ and moves 14" for 84 points, and also scouts 9", it also can slingshot jackals up the table for a turn 1 assault. If you don't require the HML it pretty much has a guaranteed turn 1 charge. Would they kill anything in assaulting in such a manner? No way, but two of these hitting first turn with their bases turned on the side have a long footprint which would allow you to pin your opponents screen in their deployment. That is a very big deal, I used this trick with sentinels a couple times, issue being they move 5" slower and have a smaller footprint so it wasn't consistent, this remedies that. BTW sentinels are also very good for this still, I think they are pretty much equal.
I don't want anyone to think I am saying they need these things. But to declare them totally none viable is a bit extreme. I plan on running 1 or 2 (depending on my final list) in conjunction with said sentinels, only I will run the sentinels with heavy flamers. I feel like a larger unit of jackals sling shotting up with these units will make a good early game disruption force. You need to remember, we need at least half our stuff on the table, I want that stuff to be very fast. Its a death trap needing to highland charge half your stuff up the board first turn with zero possibility of getting in your opponents face.
I am all ears to any other ideas for occupying table space in the same/similar manner first turn without leaning on the guard book, at least initially. If I can make the GSC work I'd like to stay there, epsecially given the CP nerf to guard battalions.
Oh if you're considering lascannon sentinels then yeah 100% take the ridgerunner instead. I was considering multilaser sentinels for my screening purposes, because if they fulfil their intended role (stopping something like a Da Jump/genestealer rush from impacting my lines turn 1) then they just die, and I want them as cheap as they can go. Plus they fill brigade slots.
Honestly just the ability to take 3 scout sentinels and 3 mortar HWT might ironically be the biggest buff this army got for competitive play, lol. Aberrant wombo-combos are great but we could ace knights with just annointed throng before.
At least scout sentinels were a thing already in the index, right?
I think the comparison of scout sentinels to ridgerunners is the following: Do you just want to have a speedbump as cheap as possible or also want to have okayish anti-tank + support for motobikes?
I suppose the answer to that question is related to whether or not you want to use the bikes.
I think in a strictly competitive setting, which is the premise I'm discussing for the sake of tactics, the answer to that outside of "completely bare minimum sized units for brigades", is likely a "probably not".
I agree with you. The bikes are more of a gimmick choice. They can, however, make a non-negligible contribution to first turn screen clearing.
On the other hand 3x3 mortar teams will do the job more safely and efficiently.
Yep. I'm still riding the Acolyte Train fairly hard (Talking like 60 of them in a Brigade), but I do intend to expand into more Neophytes beyond my current 30 over time. Webbers are the real deal t 1ppm now, as well.
Danny slag wrote:So you're going to take a scout vehicle to sit in the back and snipe? Which even doing so would still only land maybe 1-2 shots per game. I get it, you want them to be cool because the miniatures are amazingly designed. But you're being obtuse, any sane person who's played any 40k immediately looks at those stats and knows it's bad.
I'm just looking at what it can do mechanically. It has 3 heavy weapon mounts with decent range and the same general accuracy as anything else in the army, plus it gets to deploy further up the field before the game starts. Why would you move it every turn when it doesn't have any business getting close to the foe outside of occasionally acting as an overwatch sponge?
As far as why I would be interested in running such a unit, it has a defensive profile that mirrors the other vehicles I am already using which offers more threat saturation. Sentinels and Chimeras are just different enough defensively from Goliaths that different types of firepower are more effective and thus saturation is broken. Having everything with the same general defense makes it more difficult for the opponent to optimally use their guns.
Danny slag wrote: That's like saying "you could use acolytes as a shooting unit because they have autopistols" sure you could...but all you're doing is using something at something it's terrible at just as an excuse to try to use it.
Amusingly enough people are discussing using them as a "shooting unit" with mass hand flamers...
Drdotts wrote: Sweet, do you know if you can run a sporocyst and the drill in the same fortification detachment?
Does the Drill have the tyranid KW?
Unfortunately it only has the Genestealer Cults keyword
Even if it did have the Tyranid keyword, the Battle Brothers matched play rule requires at least 2 shared faction keywords to include in a detachment or the unaligned keyword, so it would need a <hive fleet> keyword as well to be eligible.
Darkwynn wrote: - Patriarch does he have unquestioning loyalty or not?
I could see them leaving the rule off him, since unquestioning loyalty allows the model with the rule to intercept the hit - it doesn't make the model eligible to have someone take the hit. Makes sense that the Patriarch won't throw itself in the path of a sniper's bullet to protect an underling, but nothing stops the underlings from doing the same for him.
So the Warhammer Community article for GSC was literally about dropping in a 20 strong unit of hand flamers and getting an average of 70 hits. Something tells me that it isn't going to change or go away any time soon...
Cephalobeard wrote: I suppose the answer to that question is related to whether or not you want to use the bikes.
I think in a strictly competitive setting, which is the premise I'm discussing for the sake of tactics, the answer to that outside of "completely bare minimum sized units for brigades", is likely a "probably not".
I get where your coming from, but I hate pigeon holing discussions like that. In a strictly competitive setting GSC out from the index would n ever be considered.
Yeah, the ridgerunner as its rules are written is going to move as many times after the scout move as a scout sentinel is: none.
The double lascannon version does offer some value, landing a lascannon hit and three stub hits each turn. It is certainly the only version I would consider over just running a rockgrinder instead.
Speaking of - I'm kind of liking the rockgrinder now with the clearance incinerator if the incinerator is 12" range 2d6 hits. Deep strike it with the cult of the four-armed emperor trait and it's pretty good at getting in, too.
I still haven't seen rules on the hammers the jackals can take. I am curious how those work.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, the ridgerunner as its rules are written is going to move as many times after the scout move as a scout sentinel is: none.
The double lascannon version does offer some value, landing a lascannon hit and three stub hits each turn. It is certainly the only version I would consider over just running a rockgrinder instead.
Speaking of - I'm kind of liking the rockgrinder now with the clearance incinerator if the incinerator is 12" range 2d6 hits. Deep strike it with the cult of the four-armed emperor trait and it's pretty good at getting in, too.
Pretty sure only infantry and bikes can come from underground. But yea, it's still solid. It's basically a hellhound with solid close combat ability.
Also don't forget the ridgerunner benefits from the alphus well.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, the ridgerunner as its rules are written is going to move as many times after the scout move as a scout sentinel is: none.
The double lascannon version does offer some value, landing a lascannon hit and three stub hits each turn. It is certainly the only version I would consider over just running a rockgrinder instead.
Speaking of - I'm kind of liking the rockgrinder now with the clearance incinerator if the incinerator is 12" range 2d6 hits. Deep strike it with the cult of the four-armed emperor trait and it's pretty good at getting in, too.
Cephalobeard wrote: Pariarch doesn't need unquestioning loyalty as the troops around him will have it, no?
Jackals weapon options make sense, just can't take the weapons the rules on the model indicated.
Scout with ambush is hilarious, and I have no idea.
I'm curious to see your overall opinion post LVO, my friend. Genuinely so.
I think so but don't know. Need it FAQ
Jackals I think you are right but I am kind of hoping autoguns and shotguns are an option otherwise you will never see them more than a squad of 5.
Patriarch isn't supposed to tank shots for other characters, I think it was an intentional design choice since having UL yourself isn't a requirement for benefiting from it. Not unless they changed the rule from it's previous iteration.
Jackals IMO don't need the double gun loadout to be good, in fact it would be worse in certain scenarios. Your going to want to use these for a turn 1 assault on screens which means they need to advance, so I would rather take the knife and get the extra attack which benefits more from powers anyway. The shotgun can still be fired however. I haven't settled on which cult does them best, I am juggling between rusted claw and twisted helix.
Helix gets the +2 advance and the added S, but odds are I want to cast MFB on them anyway and most screens don't require s5. So I am then looking at rusted claw since they can advance and fire those shotguns first at no penalty and have more durability. I'll probably go rusted claw for sure if/when I take other 5 man demo units as well since that strat they have is insane.
Cephalobeard wrote: Pariarch doesn't need unquestioning loyalty as the troops around him will have it, no?
Jackals weapon options make sense, just can't take the weapons the rules on the model indicated.
Scout with ambush is hilarious, and I have no idea.
I'm curious to see your overall opinion post LVO, my friend. Genuinely so.
I think so but don't know. Need it FAQ
Jackals I think you are right but I am kind of hoping autoguns and shotguns are an option otherwise you will never see them more than a squad of 5.
Patriarch isn't supposed to tank shots for other characters, I think it was an intentional design choice since having UL yourself isn't a requirement for benefiting from it. Not unless they changed the rule from it's previous iteration.
Jackals IMO don't need the double gun loadout to be good, in fact it would be worse in certain scenarios. Your going to want to use these for a turn 1 assault on screens which means they need to advance, so I would rather take the knife and get the extra attack which benefits more from powers anyway. The shotgun can still be fired however. I haven't settled on which cult does them best, I am juggling between rusted claw and twisted helix.
Helix gets the +2 advance and the added S, but odds are I want to cast MFB on them anyway and most screens don't require s5. So I am then looking at rusted claw since they can advance and fire those shotguns first at no penalty and have more durability. I'll probably go rusted claw for sure if/when I take other 5 man demo units as well since that strat they have is insane.
For melee the pauper princes are much better though. And in this case you better don't use shotguns. You might be out of range otherwise.
True, and that just adds another layer, I forgot about them lol. Over all I am very happy with the traits, I feel like I can run any of them and be happy.
Red Corsair wrote: True, and that just adds another layer, I forgot about them lol. Over all I am very happy with the traits, I feel like I can run any of them and be happy.
I'm most likely going to end up with a double battalion setup with half four-armed emp and half rusted claw. All my deep strikey chargey things in the former, all my mechanized troops and neophytes in the latter.
Red Corsair wrote: I love how you literally had to avoid all of causalis and my own posts regarding it's viability just to support your confirmation bias.
It has some really solid utility.
Instead of insulting anyone that disagrees with your position, try polite debate.
Pointing out all the reasons why it's ineffective is impolite? pointing out all the ways it's ineffective is 'throwing a fit." Sounds like you're just upset by anything that doesn't agree with you and rather than be able to debate those points you just keep asserting that it's unacceptable behavior to disagree with you and explain why you're wrong.
There's nothing the ridgerunner does that something else in the army doesn't do better and cheaper. It has no actual use in the army. spending 68 points to maybe do a wound or 2 to a vehicle, maybe, isn't a very good use of points.
Cephalobeard wrote: Pariarch doesn't need unquestioning loyalty as the troops around him will have it, no?
Jackals weapon options make sense, just can't take the weapons the rules on the model indicated.
Scout with ambush is hilarious, and I have no idea.
I'm curious to see your overall opinion post LVO, my friend. Genuinely so.
I think so but don't know. Need it FAQ
Jackals I think you are right but I am kind of hoping autoguns and shotguns are an option otherwise you will never see them more than a squad of 5.
Patriarch isn't supposed to tank shots for other characters, I think it was an intentional design choice since having UL yourself isn't a requirement for benefiting from it. Not unless they changed the rule from it's previous iteration.
Jackals IMO don't need the double gun loadout to be good, in fact it would be worse in certain scenarios. Your going to want to use these for a turn 1 assault on screens which means they need to advance, so I would rather take the knife and get the extra attack which benefits more from powers anyway. The shotgun can still be fired however. I haven't settled on which cult does them best, I am juggling between rusted claw and twisted helix.
Helix gets the +2 advance and the added S, but odds are I want to cast MFB on them anyway and most screens don't require s5. So I am then looking at rusted claw since they can advance and fire those shotguns first at no penalty and have more durability. I'll probably go rusted claw for sure if/when I take other 5 man demo units as well since that strat they have is insane.
I'm not positive, but doesn't the rusted claw only negate the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons, so it wouldn't have any effect on the shotguns? That's why i'm going twisted helix. Granted the bikes are a pretty sub par choice in general. I've never wanted fast assaulting guardsman, but the models look too nice to not use them so i'm going to take them even though they're not very good at anything other than the grenade spam trick.
I'm not positive, but doesn't the rusted claw only negate the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons, so it wouldn't have any effect on the shotguns? That's why i'm going twisted helix. Granted the bikes are a pretty sub par choice in general. I've never wanted fast assaulting guardsman, but the models look too nice to not use them so i'm going to take them even though they're not very good at anything other than the grenade spam trick.
You've got confused there. Bladed cog is the ignore penalty for heavy weapons (and the 6++). Rusted claw is +1 armour Vs ap0 and ap-1, and bikes get to ignore -1 for assault weapons.
I'm not positive, but doesn't the rusted claw only negate the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons, so it wouldn't have any effect on the shotguns? That's why i'm going twisted helix. Granted the bikes are a pretty sub par choice in general. I've never wanted fast assaulting guardsman, but the models look too nice to not use them so i'm going to take them even though they're not very good at anything other than the grenade spam trick.
You've got confused there. Bladed cog is the ignore penalty for heavy weapons (and the 6++). Rusted claw is +1 armour Vs ap0 and ap-1, and bikes get to ignore -1 for assault weapons.
Red Corsair wrote: I love how you literally had to avoid all of causalis and my own posts regarding it's viability just to support your confirmation bias.
It has some really solid utility.
Instead of insulting anyone that disagrees with your position, try polite debate.
Pointing out all the reasons why it's ineffective is impolite? pointing out all the ways it's ineffective is 'throwing a fit." Sounds like you're just upset by anything that doesn't agree with you and rather than be able to debate those points you just keep asserting that it's unacceptable behavior to disagree with you and explain why you're wrong.
There's nothing the ridgerunner does that something else in the army doesn't do better and cheaper. It has no actual use in the army. spending 68 points to maybe do a wound or 2 to a vehicle, maybe, isn't a very good use of points.
Find me a scouting AT vehicle for cheaper... Edit: with similar output because I know a single sentinel is cheaper
The impolite part was suggesting anyone with a view counter to yours must be bad at the game and clueless. Trying to paint my as the emotional dude that avoids debate is so backwards it genuinely made me laugh, so thanks. 9/10 times I am the guy explaining how units people disregard can be used effectively. Or have you skipped by the last 3 pages of constructive discussion about the bikes and buggy?
I am dismayed to see this tactic thread offer little in the way of actual tactics and seems to be more about discussing if unit x is worth it points etc. So to hopefully get things moving in a different direction I bring you my very first bat rep with the new codex (proxying a few of the new units).
I had 3 battalions: 2x Rusted Claw, 1x 4AE
All my Neophytes were Rusted Claw, all my Acolytes 4AE.
Played against Tyranids. Turns out my Cultists didn't like the prospect of being consumed for their biomass. Ungreatful bunch. Must be the human parts inside of them. Anyway.
Turn 1
I used the ambush tokens which was a nice tactical advantage as I could set up my units in such a way that my HML (on the Ridgerunner) and my Lascannons in my Brood Brother squads could see his Exocrine whilst I could also hide/cover my vehicles form his AT shooting. However, I have to say that it is a bit difficult to remember where you wanted to place what unit and that it also slows the game down a bunch.
He got first turn. Blew up my Rockgrinder. Patriarch and Magus inside stumbled out of the wreck. His Genestealers advanced into a ruin, looking hungrily at my Truck (2x ML and 2x GLs inside). We played a mission form CA 2018. The one with the data terminals. Very fun! He also advanced a horde of shooty Gants with their Tervigon onto the middle objective on the board, claiming it.
My turn! My Jackal Alphus can't see his Exocrine so she nominates the Tervigon as her target. I am unsure if Neophytes inside of Trucks benefit from her buff since they aren't technicaly on the board. Anyway, the new Mining Lasers are sooo much better. Killed the Tervigon (took 1 Lascannon, 2 MLs and a HML which shot and hit 2 times). Moved my min sized Bike squad (heavy flamer on the quad and all with Demo Charges of course) into position, out of reach of his advancing Genestealers but near enough that they would be able to shoot/charge them next turn if necessary.
My obj camping Stubber Neophyte squads were worth their weight in gold. Rusted Claw makes them absurdly tough for their point costs! And they can make their points back by killing just a few Genestealers etc. (only 60 points of a squad with stubbers and grenade launchers).
End of the Turn he scored 4 points from holding objectives and 1 for first strike. I scored 2 from objs and 1 from first strike. 5-3 for the Nids.
Turn 2
I knew this would be the big turn of the game. I just had to endure and hope there would be enough left standing. He destroyed on of my 2 Trucks, exposing the Neophyte squad inside. The fleshy drop pod slammed down and regurgitated a Maleceptor. Tough 8 with a 4++. Yikes! His Mawloc also popped up in my line. Doing almost no damage but my Brood Brothers were shaking in their boots, staring down that beast. His Genestealers luckily whiffed their charge.
My turn. Oh boy, that wasn't a lot of damage. Time to make those big bugs bleed! My Patriarch runs over to the Mawloc. Gave him the Crouchling, the +1 a s WT and the Magus (via stratagem) the generic +1LD in 6" trait. Bumping my Patriarch up to LD 11. Turns out that big monster is only LD 7. Mwahahah! Mental Onslaught goes off and I strip 5 wounds off of the Mawloc , only ending the mortal wound avalanche because I roll poorly and he rolls a luck 6. Smite it for another 3 damage for good measure.
Alphus points out that there is a big ugly bug with way too many brains in her way. Roger boss! My Bikes drive up, I pop the stratagem for more grenades and the demolition drive-by. 5D6 S8 AP-3 D3 damage explosives smash into the ugly thing. The 4++ kept it from dying but it took 9 wounds. My bikes drive away, screening my second Truck from his advancing Warriors. Damn they are useful! They are a one trick pony of course but they are a nice counter charge/blast unit to have. Mining Lasers and stuff bring it down.
My 20 Shotgun/Flamer Neophytes pop up 3" away (Stratagem) from his Broodlord and Stealers. Gunslinger behind them. He wounds a whole lot of Stealers but their 5++ and Katalyst see only 5 of them die. But the Boomsticks go to work. All Stealers dead. Ash would be proud!
In his deployment zone my Primus pops up with 10 Acos (3x Saws, 1x Drill, Banner, all Hand Flamers). He nominates his gloryfied artillery piece. I pay 3CP to let the Acos move D6". MFW I roll a 6. Industrial mining things happen and the Exocrine is no more. On his other flank his squad of warriors is visited by a Clamavus, Iconward (Broodsurge WT) and another squad of 10 Acos (4x Saws, Banner). They easily make that 7" charge (+1 for Clamavus, +1 for Cult Creed). All four Warriors die. Suddenly I hold 4 objectives. One might say it is all going according to the Cults plan!
Turn 3
He has almost no shooting left. No casualties in that phase! My squads of Acolytes get charged by his Swarmtyrant and some Warriors. I spend 2 CPs to intervene and the Tyrant is cleft in twaine. Shame, I still had a Sanctus with the dagger of swift sacrifice in reserve. Oh well. He came out the next turn, used his free D6" move and annihilated his Warrior Prime. At that point he conceded as I had almost tabled him. I lost all of my Goliaths (as almost every game) but I had waaaay more Neophytes left. And for the first time all those Mining Laser actually did stuff!
Bikes fill brigades. Better than sentinels because lascannons have nothing to target in our army as is so why give them a freebie?
If you’re not taking a brigade, I find it much more difficult to need 1 attack bikers for their CC prowess or for their sprinkle of shooting. They just don’t rate well enough for me as a harassment unit. They do score objectives and -1 to hit is nice don’t get me wrong. But our army just has so many great stratagems that I feel you really need to start the game with as much CP as possible. I’m making brigade + battalion + 4AE extra CP trait + Nexos regen lists and it’s not enough CP
Would a pure army of acolyte hybrids be good? 200 of them are only 1400 points, and you can run half of them on ambush, and the other running down the board. ORKISH style
Was curious on getting some help forming something decent out of what my girl has so far:
20 Neophytes
10 Now Brood Brothers infantry with Autogun Heavy Team
10 Acolytes
5 Aberrents
An anointed one
Magus
Primus
Patriarch (2 familiars)
Rockgrinder
Leman Russ
Ironclad
30ish Genestealers
She has a large collection of Nids so far. I'd say we have enough for supporting options. Was hoping on what we should focus on buying next with the new codex out. Was definitely picking up bikes.
luke1705 wrote:Bikes fill brigades. Better than sentinels because lascannons have nothing to target in our army as is so why give them a freebie?
If you’re not taking a brigade, I find it much more difficult to need 1 attack bikers for their CC prowess or for their sprinkle of shooting. They just don’t rate well enough for me as a harassment unit. They do score objectives and -1 to hit is nice don’t get me wrong. But our army just has so many great stratagems that I feel you really need to start the game with as much CP as possible. I’m making brigade + battalion + 4AE extra CP trait + Nexos regen lists and it’s not enough CP
I think the main draw with the bikes is that they are an "anvil" unit for relatively cheap. They aren't the most appealing target to shoot at due to the -1 to hit and low offense (scans demo-charges) but they are fast enough that they can meet up with the tunneling units without needing to ambush themselves.
They should be very good for blocking lanes of retreat for the melee units. Any time you can prevent a foe from simply falling back from melee threats is a good day.
zamerion wrote:Would a pure army of acolyte hybrids be good? 200 of them are only 1400 points, and you can run half of them on ambush, and the other running down the board. ORKISH style
Apart from the obscene cost of that many acolytes (USD $1600 before tax), I think at that point you will probably end up with diminishing returns. Acolytes hit hard for troops, but having so many risks running into the issue of models not being able to attack due to the amount of space they take up relative to the limited amount of space available to pile into combat. I understand that the sheer number of models provides a bit of cushioning against attrition, but I'd have to question if it wouldn't be wiser to just use Neophytes or Brood Brothers to act as the bullet catchers and have Acolytes safely tunnel or ride in.
My general experience with the index version is that GSC lists have two components, the "anvil" units (in the index this consisted of allies, neophytes, and vehicles) and the "hammer" units (Acolytes, 'stealers, Aberrants). You really need a balance of both to be effective. Taking only hammers results in trouble with attrition (the "running out of steam" issue often noted in battle reports) while taking too many anvils means not enough offense to neutralize key enemy threats before they do too much damage. I'm fairly confident this will still be so with the codex, albeit there is now some options that overlap the two aspects (Aberrants being a tanky "hammer" or the Jackals with demo charges being an "anvil" that can act as a 1-turn hammer).
"I am dismayed to see this tactic thread offer little in the way of actual tactics and seems to be more about discussing if unit x is worth it points etc. So to hopefully get things moving in a different direction I bring you my very first bat rep with the new codex"
Maybe it's because he codex isn't in most people's hands and relying solely off of leaks and youtube videos don't exactly set people up for accurate testing you booger
I think if you are going to run that sort of horde Tyranids are better. You can get 200+ devourer 'gaunts and still have points for Neurothropes and even a Malenthrope. 200 -1 to hit 6++ bodies is a lot to get past.
More reasonably, I expect that a 'gaunt horde can find a place to splash 4 armed emperor to get vect and CP regen. Or that an aberrant hammer build could find a use for a termagant anvil.
What are people’s thoughts on the best way to plug in a Cult of the Four-Armed Emperor detachment in, right now? It is going to be 100% an auto-include imo, going forward.
Would you run it as a cheap Supreme Command detachment or just drop in a min Battalion?
I feel 3 relic's are going to be common. These are some of the best i have seen.
i am running 3 almost all the time.
I would use it very often, because it is super cool. The partriarch will probably get +1S +1 A, the Primus +3 inch to aura and the Magus maybe even the rusted claw WL trait with -1ap on a melee roll of 6.
With regards to the Index Chimera being able to transport anything and the Codex Chimera being able to load Broodbrothers only; isn’t there a flow-chart that allows options from the Index that are missing in the Codex?
Jrandom wrote: With regards to the Index Chimera being able to transport anything and the Codex Chimera being able to load Broodbrothers only; isn’t their a flow-chart that allows options from the Index that are missing in the Codex?
I doubt it.
If the chimera datasheets has got different names, like "Brood Brother Chimera" in the codex and "Cult Chimera" in the index, you might be able to argue this case. But then you would at least have to pay the old points cost for the chimera.
But else the flowchart is for wargear options. Transport rules are definitely not wargear.
Jrandom wrote: With regards to the Index Chimera being able to transport anything and the Codex Chimera being able to load Broodbrothers only; isn’t there a flow-chart that allows options from the Index that are missing in the Codex?
I doubt it.
If the chimera datasheets has got different names, like "Brood Brother Chimera" in the codex and "Cult Chimera" in the index, you might be able to argue this case. But then you would at least have to pay the old points cost for the chimera.
But else the flowchart is for wargear options. Transport rules are definitely not wargear.
Thank you for that, it does look like a possibility if the names are different. I guess it will have to wait until we get the book.
As far as tactics goes, I think that there could be some play with Broodbrother Crusaders. For 150pts you can get a 10 man unit, that could have a 2++ (when being buffed by Psychic Barrier,) and be able to fight 3x per turn (Acts of Faith + Fix Bayonets!) without spending any CPs. They would be quite the chaff lawnmower.
Jrandom wrote: With regards to the Index Chimera being able to transport anything and the Codex Chimera being able to load Broodbrothers only; isn’t there a flow-chart that allows options from the Index that are missing in the Codex?
I doubt it.
If the chimera datasheets has got different names, like "Brood Brother Chimera" in the codex and "Cult Chimera" in the index, you might be able to argue this case. But then you would at least have to pay the old points cost for the chimera.
But else the flowchart is for wargear options. Transport rules are definitely not wargear.
Thank you for that, it does look like a possibility if the names are different. I guess it will have to wait until we get the book.
As far as tactics goes, I think that there could be some play with Broodbrother Crusaders. For 150pts you can get a 10 man unit, that could have a 2++ (when being buffed by Psychic Barrier,) and be able to fight 3x per turn (Acts of Faith + Fix Bayonets!) without spending any CPs. They would be quite the chaff lawnmower.
I'm pumping the brakes on anything brood bros until I see if the rumor that they get no orders at all pans out. That seems very likely to me given how wacky orderable bullgryns/crusaders/etc could possibly be. But, TBH, if that goes through I"m not seeing much that you'd ever want out of brood bros in a competitive list.
-You'd get nerfed infantry squads who can't get orders. At that point I'd go neophytes just to get webbers and CA.
-You'd get nerfed tank commanders who don't reroll 1s. Maybe still worth it? IDK.
-You'd get nerfed basilisks/artillery with no catachan doctrine and no Harker
The only things I can see going into brood brothers for would be like a superheavy with a couple psykers, or maybe a wyvern or something. Beyond the obvious Sentinels/Mortar Teams to fill brigade slots in your GSC detachments.
Jrandom wrote: With regards to the Index Chimera being able to transport anything and the Codex Chimera being able to load Broodbrothers only; isn’t there a flow-chart that allows options from the Index that are missing in the Codex?
The only things I can see going into brood brothers for would be like a superheavy with a couple psykers, or maybe a wyvern or something. Beyond the obvious Sentinels/Mortar Teams to fill brigade slots in your GSC detachments.
Will Sentinels/Mortar Teams be possible to take as part of a GSC detachment then ? I thought it was no longer possible (or in other words, "brood bro only"...)
I'm pumping the brakes on anything brood bros until I see if the rumor that they get no orders at all pans out. That seems very likely to me given how wacky orderable bullgryns/crusaders/etc could possibly be. But, TBH, if that goes through I"m not seeing much that you'd ever want out of brood bros in a competitive list.
This is the wording on the thing. It says orders but it seems to be in the context of "regimental specific".
Spoiler:
I'm wondering if we'll see an updated Guard FAQ/Errata restricting Orders to units with Vox-Casters...which would be a fairly big Guard nerf IMO.
I would say that the wording of the Broodbrothers restricts them from getting access to Regimental Orders, not orders in general.
Assuming that GW doesn’t want players giving orders to the non-regimental units (but who now have the Broodbrother keyword,) I say that you would want to take several IG Commanders, so that you would be able to give orders to the Broodbrother units that were bought inside of the GSC.
Being able to give orders to the Ogryns, Ratlings, Crusaders, and other non-regimental units does seem reasonable, since they are under a high level of mind-control, but I do understand peoples hesitations in this regard.
I don’t think that GSC will be toppling the Ynari or other top-tier factions, to become the top competitive army. So why worry so much? They should have a lot of synergy with the Imperial Guard, even more so then with the Tyranids (who are just scooping them up by the time they get to planet fall.)
Jrandom wrote: I would say that the wording of the Broodbrothers restricts them from getting access to Regimental Orders, not orders in general.
Assuming that GW doesn’t want players giving orders to the non-regimental units (but who now have the Broodbrother keyword,) I say that you would want to take several IG Commanders, so that you would be able to give orders to the Broodbrother units that were bought inside of the GSC.
You act like someone couldn't just take a Supreme Command Detachment and do it with minimal CP loss, if that's their goal.
SCD:
3 Company Commanders
Elites seasoned to taste(Platoon Commanders, Ogryn/Bullgryn, whatever)
Hell you could throw in a Superheavy if you wanted to.
Being able to give orders to the Ogryns, Ratlings, Crusaders, and other non-regimental units does seem reasonable, since they are under a high level of mind-control, but I do understand peoples hesitations in this regard.
No, it really doesn't seem reasonable. That's the whole reason why they aren't <Regiment> units to begin with. And that also includes Scions--a unit specifically given its own set of static keywords to mandate that you have to devote an HQ specifically to them.
I don’t think that GSC will be toppling the Ynari or other top-tier factions, to become the top competitive army. So why worry so much? They should have a lot of synergy with the Imperial Guard, even more so then with the Tyranids (who are just scooping them up by the time they get to planet fall.)
You know who else should have a lot of synergy with the Imperial Guard?
The Imperial Guard.
Like I said though, it makes me wondering if we'll see an updated FAQ/Errata...but at the same time I'm starting to think no we won't.
Jrandom wrote: With regards to the Index Chimera being able to transport anything and the Codex Chimera being able to load Broodbrothers only; isn’t there a flow-chart that allows options from the Index that are missing in the Codex?
The only things I can see going into brood brothers for would be like a superheavy with a couple psykers, or maybe a wyvern or something. Beyond the obvious Sentinels/Mortar Teams to fill brigade slots in your GSC detachments.
Will Sentinels/Mortar Teams be possible to take as part of a GSC detachment then ? I thought it was no longer possible (or in other words, "brood bro only"...)
A few units are available both in the GSC codex and as an allied AM brood brothers detachment. Heavy weapon squad, basic infantry squad, both types of sentinel, chimera, leman russ (but GSC detachments cannot take the "advanced variants" that are built from the LR demolisher box). If you take these from the GSC codex, they become part of a GSC detachment. They will not benefit from the Cult Traits, but they does not break them either (like gretchin works for orks).
Everyone is talking about mortar teams for HWT, like guard players usually do for brigades. I get it, they are cheap and can stay behind LOS blocking terrain.
But I think you can make certain points for using other heavy weapons in a GSC armies instead, e.g. lasercannons.
1.) You can use blip markers to place HWT! This allows for an amazing adaptation on the enemy deployment. For example it will never happen that your enemy can hide vehicles efficiently from your AT weapons.
2.) GSC are lacking ranged AT weapons in general. They could need the lascannon HWT much more than AM do.
Maybe it's because he codex isn't in most people's hands and relying solely off of leaks and youtube videos don't exactly set people up for accurate testing you booger
We have all the infos we need! YT reviews and the leaks and we even have an update for battlescribe for the accurate points. And even if people don't have the codex or haven't played a game yet, we still have enough info to formulate strategies.
Patriarch: Amulet of the Voidwyrm, Power: Mental Onslaught, Power: Might From Beyond
Primus: Bonesword, Warlord
+ Troops +
Acolyte Hybrids: Cult Icon
. 5x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 5x Hand Flamer
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Leader: Cultist Knife, Hand Flamer
Acolyte Hybrids: Cult Icon
. 2x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 2x Hand Flamer
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Drill
. Acolyte Leader: Cultist Knife, Hand Flamer
Heavy Weapon Teams don’t get Cult ambush afaik, which is why mortars are so good for them. They hide out of los, keep deepstrikers out of your backfield, and provide some nice firepower to clear chaff for your melee units. Being cheap heavy slots is still their main purpose though.
I think my list will have 2 mortar teams and a Rockgrinder though. 3 teams seems a little more difficult to hide.
Astmeister wrote: Everyone is talking about mortar teams for HWT, like guard players usually do for brigades. I get it, they are cheap and can stay behind LOS blocking terrain.
But I think you can make certain points for using other heavy weapons in a GSC armies instead, e.g. lasercannons.
1.) You can use blip markers to place HWT! This allows for an amazing adaptation on the enemy deployment. For example it will never happen that your enemy can hide vehicles efficiently from your AT weapons.
2.) GSC are lacking ranged AT weapons in general. They could need the lascannon HWT much more than AM do.
Maybe it's because he codex isn't in most people's hands and relying solely off of leaks and youtube videos don't exactly set people up for accurate testing you booger
We have all the infos we need! YT reviews and the leaks and we even have an update for battlescribe for the accurate points. And even if people don't have the codex or haven't played a game yet, we still have enough info to formulate strategies.
Patriarch: Amulet of the Voidwyrm, Power: Mental Onslaught, Power: Might From Beyond
Primus: Bonesword, Warlord
+ Troops +
Acolyte Hybrids: Cult Icon
. 5x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 5x Hand Flamer
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Leader: Cultist Knife, Hand Flamer
Acolyte Hybrids: Cult Icon
. 2x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 2x Hand Flamer
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Drill
. Acolyte Leader: Cultist Knife, Hand Flamer
Patriarch: Amulet of the Voidwyrm, Power: Mental Onslaught, Power: Might From Beyond
Primus: Bonesword, Warlord
+ Troops +
Acolyte Hybrids: Cult Icon
. 5x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 5x Hand Flamer
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Leader: Cultist Knife, Hand Flamer
Acolyte Hybrids: Cult Icon
. 2x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 2x Hand Flamer
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Drill
. Acolyte Leader: Cultist Knife, Hand Flamer
Cult Scout Sentinels . Cult Scout Sentinel: Heavy Flamer
Taking the two extra sentinels in the final detachment is odd. I feel you'd have better points elsewhere.
Relic amulet is likely better on your Sanctus than the relic dagger.
I wouldn't, personally, double down as hard on Wargear as your list is doing. 4 Saws and assorted hand flamers is mixing a number of things that don't necessarily need to mix, and I feel you'd have better result just running more total units.
Ridgerunner, as mentioned previously, is likely not super great in general.
If your goal here is to have a "mix of everything" casual list, I think you'll be well suited to have fun. However, Competitively speaking I don't believe you're going to have too solid results if your aim is things like Tournaments.
Too many different units doing different jobs, wargear isn't very consistent and we have too many things on units which has you retaining less units than you would likely want.
I guess I will add my recent Bat Rep for discussion.
I play-tested a 1500 points double Rusted Claw batallion list against a Custodes list running the new beta rules. List is below, point costs may be a bit off as a lot of changes were made last minute and I may have forgotten some upgrades by now. Also note, i have autogun and shotguns on the bikes, I know this is wrong but didn't realize when I played this game. It does not affect the outcome at all.
Acolyte Hybrids:
. 3x Acolyte Hybrid base
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon):Heavy Rock Saw
Acolyte Hybrids:
. 3x Acolyte Hybrid base
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon):Heavy Rock Saw
Acolyte Hybrids:
. 3x Acolyte Hybrid base
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon):Heavy Rock Saw
+ Elites +
6x Genestealers
16x genestealers
Mission: Beachhead from the new chapter approved
Before Battle: Used the first curse strat on the 16 man stealer squad, got poison sacks. Awesome.
Round 1: Custodes go first. Shooty dreadnought and hover tank in the back, ready to blast my dudes, being baby-sat by the Trajaan and a normal troop squd. Two more 3 man custodes cuard squad advance aggressively up the middle. I use ambush markers and used the strat to put an acolyte squad and the larger biker squad underground to remove them from the advancing custodes line of fire. Sanctus uses his free stratagem to take a couple wounds off a custode guard
In the shooting phase, the rockgrinder gets destroyed and the 6 stealers inside jump out just fine. The lascannon jackal squad gets reduced to just the wolfquads. 2 CP spent to autopass morale.
Custodes holding their obj and get first strike
GC's turn: Move up aggresively with goliath truck with one neophyte squad inside foolishly thinking I will wipe out the advancing custodes. The Alphus marks the nearest troop squad and I fire everything, killing just one model. Not good. End turn only holding my obj
Round 2
Custodes: Fire base stays still, the two custode guard near my lines move forward again. He drops a squad of three beta rules terminators in my deployment zone...they have 2x 12 inch heavy flamers each, along with a shield captain.
Shooting phase sees my truck on 3 wounds left, my ridgerunner turned into scrap and my alphus burned to a crisp and my lascannon wolfquads blown up. This essentially reduces my ranged firepower to nill.
Custodes squad charges my truck reducing it to one wound.
Custodes still only holding one OBJ
GC turn: Now is time to make it or break it.
6 man squad of genestealers advance towards the custodes engaging the goliath, neophytes disembark and jump on middle obj and the truck disengages from combat. Kelemorph and second neophyte squad drop in near middle obj. The 4 acolye squds deep strike with the klamavus, magus and patriarch near the shooty dreadnought. Augar scans is used and an acolye squad is reduced to paste. 16 man stealer squad drops in near rea custodian guard, use "a perfect ambush" and roll a 4 to advance within charge distance of the grav tank and Trajaan. 15 man biek squad use "lying in wait" to drop within 3 inches of the terminators in my back line.
In the pshychic phase, mind control gets denied on the dreadnought, patriarch does 6 mortal wounds on the hover tank with mental onslought. Might from beyond goes off on the stealers and mass halucination goes off on the hover tank.
Shooting sees another custodian guard killed in the middle. The 2 grenade strats are used on the big biker blob and only manage to kill a single custodian terminator. They messed up
in the charge phase, genestealers rolled hot (with a re-roll) and manage to charge the grav tank, Trajaan and the custian guard squad in the back-field. They kill the guards, reduce the tank to 4 wounds and strip 4 wounds of Trajaan. Trajaan reduces them to 7 models in return, but is surrounded...is this the end for Trajaan?
1 acolye squad dies to overwatch, the second gets a tanglefoot grenade (strat to reduce charge distance) and the third makes it into a custodian guard squad, deals no damage and gets wiped in return.
The 6 man stealer squad in the back charge and kill the lone custodian guard on the right flank.
GC is now on the middle and rear (held by the sanctus) objs
Turn 3:
Custodes: The shooty dreadnought sees the nearby patriarch and abandons his rear obj. Hover tank follows him. Remaining guards in the middle move to central obj to kill some neophytes. They do not kill enough to contest the obj
Shooting sees the remaining acolyes and goliath destroyed
The terminators in the rear fry and chop up the bikes, some good saves are made and 5 remain after morale.
Custodian guard in the middle charge into the neophytes killing a few more, allowing me to interrupt and kill Trajaan with the stealers, taking his head for the cult. Warlord kill...except shoulder the mantle is used.
At end of turn, GC still control two objectives, custodes control 0.
GC:
Remaining bikers bravely run away from termies and all custodian guard are wiped out. remaining stealers and characters advance on the dreadnought and hover tank....
We had called it here. Hover tank died during assault. And the dreadnought got tied up. He was behind on objectives and his termies were too slow to get to my rear obj in one turn.
All in all, was a fun game.
I think genestealers are still awesome (I also own at least 50). They were for sure the MVPs of the game. I think that the first curse stratagem is worth it as long as you put the squad underground. Even the extra survivability from extended carapace is nice, and I think you can CP re-roll. I also really like the idea of stealers in transports. You essentially give them +3 movement fist turn, and if you put a clamavus nearby, thats +4 inches. This might allow for first turn charges
The sanctus with the relic sniper barely did anything this game, mainly due to shooting custodes. I think he would only shine against weaker characters, but he is so cheap that I want to try a few more games.
My bikers also underperformed due to bad rolls and tough 3++ saves against the demo charges. I think they are viable, but I will not invest so heavily in them again.
The codex is super fun with a lot fun different build options. I think I will try a transport heavy twisted helix detachment next, maybe with some bikers for a possible first turn charge along with some genestealers.
Taking the two extra sentinels in the final detachment is odd. I feel you'd have better points elsewhere.
Relic amulet is likely better on your Sanctus than the relic dagger.
I wouldn't, personally, double down as hard on Wargear as your list is doing. 4 Saws and assorted hand flamers is mixing a number of things that don't necessarily need to mix, and I feel you'd have better result just running more total units.
Ridgerunner, as mentioned previously, is likely not super great in general.
If your goal here is to have a "mix of everything" casual list, I think you'll be well suited to have fun. However, Competitively speaking I don't believe you're going to have too solid results if your aim is things like Tournaments.
Too many different units doing different jobs, wargear isn't very consistent and we have too many things on units which has you retaining less units than you would likely want.
Yes, everything you say is correct. I took this list simply because I wanted to try out as many of the new options as I could. But I also am more of a casual player. The whole min-maxing of the tournament scene is at odds with my desire to play fluffy lists. Yes, altough I do realise that there are some fluffy tournament lists.
Anyway.
The Sanctus is probably a mediocre choice at best. He is neither particularly deadly with his rifle nor with his blades. But I think the dagger is nice. I often play against Orks (Evil Suns) and their T6+ biker characters are tought to crack. So I may give him another shot there. It's also rubbish that he can't just move D6" after DS but hast to use the stratagem, thus depriving a unit of Acolytes or Aberrants etc. of using it. And the amulet is probably better on a Patriarch.
I love the Ridgerunner model and the bikers. Its best loadout is probably spotter + HML to camp in the backfield. Can't understand WHY they would design a fast scout vehicle and then give it only heavy weaponry, making it shoot as poorly as an Ork if it does actually move. In the end I'll probably still include at least 1 or 2 in my lists. It is just too cool. Same goes for the bikes. Probably two min squads in my lists.
Do Neos inside of Trucks benefit from the Jackal Alphus' buff aura?
Patriarch: Amulet of the Voidwyrm, Power: Mental Onslaught, Power: Might From Beyond
Primus: Bonesword, Warlord
+ Troops +
Acolyte Hybrids: Cult Icon
. 5x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 5x Hand Flamer
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Leader: Cultist Knife, Hand Flamer
Acolyte Hybrids: Cult Icon
. 2x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 2x Hand Flamer
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Drill
. Acolyte Leader: Cultist Knife, Hand Flamer
Cult Scout Sentinels . Cult Scout Sentinel: Heavy Flamer
Taking the two extra sentinels in the final detachment is odd. I feel you'd have better points elsewhere.
Relic amulet is likely better on your Sanctus than the relic dagger.
I wouldn't, personally, double down as hard on Wargear as your list is doing. 4 Saws and assorted hand flamers is mixing a number of things that don't necessarily need to mix, and I feel you'd have better result just running more total units.
Ridgerunner, as mentioned previously, is likely not super great in general.
If your goal here is to have a "mix of everything" casual list, I think you'll be well suited to have fun. However, Competitively speaking I don't believe you're going to have too solid results if your aim is things like Tournaments.
Too many different units doing different jobs, wargear isn't very consistent and we have too many things on units which has you retaining less units than you would likely want.
At least I have moved the verdict on the Achilles from "total garbage" to "not super great We will see, maybe I have some crow pie coming but I don't think it deserves the cold shoulder yet. So I think we should encourage it's play testing at least, not writing it off.
As to the gear, normally I would be agreeing with you, but those HF are adding 1pt each and only taking 15pts total in his list How is he getting more units for that? I said it before and I'll repeat it, until HF's get a nerfing, they are never a bad upgrade at 1ppm. Same goes for webbers btw, but with those at least there is an opportunity cost, the HF's are always good unless your camping the backfield, at which point you wouldn't want acolytes for that anyway.
The amulet on the sanctus is a good call, I actually like that synergy a lot better since your also not risking your warlord every time you need to shut off over watch and mass hypnosis isn't an option.
I don't mind the sentinels, but I think they should both be scouts. I am not sold on armored sentinels. I feel scout sentinels are just better.
I'm sure this isn't a final list for a tourney anyway. I know my first few games will involve packing as much new stuff in as I can to test out tactic and vetting. I am guessing he didn't bother sharing the list until asked because he was aware of that, no need to label it casual.
Patriarch: Amulet of the Voidwyrm, Power: Mental Onslaught, Power: Might From Beyond
Primus: Bonesword, Warlord
+ Troops +
Acolyte Hybrids: Cult Icon
. 5x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 5x Hand Flamer
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Leader: Cultist Knife, Hand Flamer
Acolyte Hybrids: Cult Icon
. 2x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 2x Hand Flamer
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Drill
. Acolyte Leader: Cultist Knife, Hand Flamer
Cult Scout Sentinels . Cult Scout Sentinel: Heavy Flamer
Taking the two extra sentinels in the final detachment is odd. I feel you'd have better points elsewhere.
Relic amulet is likely better on your Sanctus than the relic dagger.
I wouldn't, personally, double down as hard on Wargear as your list is doing. 4 Saws and assorted hand flamers is mixing a number of things that don't necessarily need to mix, and I feel you'd have better result just running more total units.
Ridgerunner, as mentioned previously, is likely not super great in general.
If your goal here is to have a "mix of everything" casual list, I think you'll be well suited to have fun. However, Competitively speaking I don't believe you're going to have too solid results if your aim is things like Tournaments.
Too many different units doing different jobs, wargear isn't very consistent and we have too many things on units which has you retaining less units than you would likely want.
At least I have moved the verdict on the Achilles from "total garbage" to "not super great We will see, maybe I have some crow pie coming but I don't think it deserves the cold shoulder yet. So I think we should encourage it's play testing at least, not writing it off.
As to the gear, normally I would be agreeing with you, but those HF are adding 1pt each and only taking 15pts total in his list How is he getting more units for that? I said it before and I'll repeat it, until HF's get a nerfing, they are never a bad upgrade at 1ppm. Same goes for webbers btw, but with those at least there is an opportunity cost, the HF's are always good unless your camping the backfield, at which point you wouldn't want acolytes for that anyway.
The amulet on the sanctus is a good call, I actually like that synergy a lot better since your also not risking your warlord every time you need to shut off over watch and mass hypnosis isn't an option.
I don't mind the sentinels, but I think they should both be scouts. I am not sold on armored sentinels. I feel scout sentinels are just better.
I'm sure this isn't a final list for a tourney anyway. I know my first few games will involve packing as much new stuff in as I can to test out tactic and vetting. I am guessing he didn't bother sharing the list until asked because he was aware of that, no need to label it casual.
You could argue that the opportunity cost of the hand flamer is losing your 1 pistol shot when you drop in unless you use a stratagem to get you closer. For every 40 Acolytes you bring with hand flamers and don't strat them in, you're giving up on killing approximately one guard squad on the drop - it ain't much, but it ain't nothing. They also don't cost nothing either - take 40 cultists with hand flamers and you give up a BB infantry squad or a sentinel.
Also, I am not seeing their impact in overwatch being much great shakes, given their 6" range. It's pretty trivial to charge them from 7" away and still have an approximately 2/3 chance to get in, or at the very least limit it to 1 or 2 models in range.
Sure, it's a micro-impact, but I don't think they're incredible enough on the squad that ISN'T getting them on the drop that they should be considered 100% auto-includes.
I am also not entirely convinced they're going to be that much of a splash on the drop. 3.5 hits per 8 point model is slightly worse output than a FRFSRF infantry squad...which we do have access to, and they do not cost CP's to use.
I'm holding my horses on this combo at least until we see them getting some results. I think that giving up the charge on a 20-strong unit of neophytes is a much bigger opportunity cost than people are taking into account right now.
Rules question : does a unit get +1 on charge, when they first come out of a transport, if they are Co4ae even if it is not first turn?
In principle it will still be the first turn that they are put on the battlefield.
Astmeister wrote: Rules question : does a unit get +1 on charge, when they first come out of a transport, if they are Co4ae even if it is not first turn?
In principle it will still be the first turn that they are put on the battlefield.
Yeah, RAW right now, if you deploy them in the transport they're not "on the battlefield" until they first disembark.
So they'd get the +1 to charge (and advance, which they could actually use!)
I also had the idea of using jackal Alphus in hivecult with the +1 hit Strategem to let everyone hit on a 2+ against the marked unit.
Might be good for Mining laser Neophytes or Ridgerunners.
OK I should have been more clear, I am still not advocating for folks to run 50+ all with HF's, but 15-20 points tacked onto a list is really nothing to nitpick. I also kinda disagree with the range argument verse overwatch. Even guardsmen kill acolytes in assault, especially Catachans which are the popular choice. Forcing them to eat OW or make a riskier charge is easily worth a few more points. Every CC army in the game wants the shortest possible assault because failures occur at the most inopportune times, it forces your opponent to think. I like forcing tough decisions because mistakes or missed opportunities are the easiest path to victory.
That said, if your finishing off your min maxed army and you miss by a few points, of course you can always take a few of these away. But the upgrade is 1/7 the cost of another guy in the squad so I am not seeing how these are equaling a ton of extra bodies. Generally speaking it's hard not to take several of these in any list. At least for me.
Also first rank second rank doesn't exist in the book proper, so you require a guard detachment for the orders which equates to less CP. Also requiring a character that only buffs BB's. It's a nuanced conversation for sure.
Astmeister wrote: After checking battlescribe the power hammer might be an option for the jackals.
Sx2 AP -3 D3 -1 to hit for 4 points
If you take a primus for +1 to hit, they might do some damage.
Its a reasonably priced GEQ power fist ooooooooooh my goooooooooood.
Theyve had a whole edition but they've finally got it right!
That's pretty awesome for pauper prince bikes. You could turn 1 charge with a ridge runner, casting psychic stimulus and might from beyond and really doing some damage. If you dismembark a primus he can get in range from the top of your DZ. 3" plus his 32mm base so ~4" +6" plus his run 1-6" plus his aura range which could be boosted by the WLT to 9" so that a 20-25" reach to get to the back rank of the bikes. Which would boost them to 75% hit rate. Might be worth it.
Jrandom wrote: With regards to the Index Chimera being able to transport anything and the Codex Chimera being able to load Broodbrothers only; isn’t their a flow-chart that allows options from the Index that are missing in the Codex?
I doubt it.
If the chimera datasheets has got different names, like "Brood Brother Chimera" in the codex and "Cult Chimera" in the index, you might be able to argue this case. But then you would at least have to pay the old points cost for the chimera.
The Codex chimera is called "Cult Chimera", just like in the index, so the name loophole does not work...
I must say that I am not happy about that, since I bought a chimera last weekend when I pre-ordered my codex, and now I'm stuck with a transport that can't transport any of my models, and I'm not really interested in putting together a brood brother squad...
Patriarch: Amulet of the Voidwyrm, Power: Mental Onslaught, Power: Might From Beyond
Primus: Bonesword, Warlord
+ Troops +
Acolyte Hybrids: Cult Icon
. 5x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 5x Hand Flamer
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Leader: Cultist Knife, Hand Flamer
Acolyte Hybrids: Cult Icon
. 2x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 2x Hand Flamer
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Hand Flamer, Heavy Rock Drill
. Acolyte Leader: Cultist Knife, Hand Flamer
Cult Scout Sentinels . Cult Scout Sentinel: Heavy Flamer
Taking the two extra sentinels in the final detachment is odd. I feel you'd have better points elsewhere.
Relic amulet is likely better on your Sanctus than the relic dagger.
I wouldn't, personally, double down as hard on Wargear as your list is doing. 4 Saws and assorted hand flamers is mixing a number of things that don't necessarily need to mix, and I feel you'd have better result just running more total units.
Ridgerunner, as mentioned previously, is likely not super great in general.
If your goal here is to have a "mix of everything" casual list, I think you'll be well suited to have fun. However, Competitively speaking I don't believe you're going to have too solid results if your aim is things like Tournaments.
Too many different units doing different jobs, wargear isn't very consistent and we have too many things on units which has you retaining less units than you would likely want.
At least I have moved the verdict on the Achilles from "total garbage" to "not super great We will see, maybe I have some crow pie coming but I don't think it deserves the cold shoulder yet. So I think we should encourage it's play testing at least, not writing it off.
As to the gear, normally I would be agreeing with you, but those HF are adding 1pt each and only taking 15pts total in his list How is he getting more units for that? I said it before and I'll repeat it, until HF's get a nerfing, they are never a bad upgrade at 1ppm. Same goes for webbers btw, but with those at least there is an opportunity cost, the HF's are always good unless your camping the backfield, at which point you wouldn't want acolytes for that anyway.
The amulet on the sanctus is a good call, I actually like that synergy a lot better since your also not risking your warlord every time you need to shut off over watch and mass hypnosis isn't an option.
I don't mind the sentinels, but I think they should both be scouts. I am not sold on armored sentinels. I feel scout sentinels are just better.
I'm sure this isn't a final list for a tourney anyway. I know my first few games will involve packing as much new stuff in as I can to test out tactic and vetting. I am guessing he didn't bother sharing the list until asked because he was aware of that, no need to label it casual.
You could argue that the opportunity cost of the hand flamer is losing your 1 pistol shot when you drop in unless you use a stratagem to get you closer. For every 40 Acolytes you bring with hand flamers and don't strat them in, you're giving up on killing approximately one guard squad on the drop - it ain't much, but it ain't nothing. They also don't cost nothing either - take 40 cultists with hand flamers and you give up a BB infantry squad or a sentinel.
Also, I am not seeing their impact in overwatch being much great shakes, given their 6" range. It's pretty trivial to charge them from 7" away and still have an approximately 2/3 chance to get in, or at the very least limit it to 1 or 2 models in range.
Sure, it's a micro-impact, but I don't think they're incredible enough on the squad that ISN'T getting them on the drop that they should be considered 100% auto-includes.
I am also not entirely convinced they're going to be that much of a splash on the drop. 3.5 hits per 8 point model is slightly worse output than a FRFSRF infantry squad...which we do have access to, and they do not cost CP's to use.
I'm holding my horses on this combo at least until we see them getting some results. I think that giving up the charge on a 20-strong unit of neophytes is a much bigger opportunity cost than people are taking into account right now.
We are many thinking that the whole « HF is so great for 1 pt » is total #%&@ (it is a nice tool to have but nothing more than that). Indeed I also think the 6 range makes it a situational weapon, because this is too short a range to be usually able to charge something else, whereas 20 lasting neophits score 20 hits on average from 12 away and can then attempt a charge, for example. 5 points per dude, 3 less than acolytes with HF.
Also @Causalis in your battle report you misread it or your opponent didnt tell you correctly. Maleceptors are not T8 they are T7. The only T8 monsters outside of Forge World are Tyrannofex, Tervigon, Haruspex, and Exocrine.
Why do people feel that Genestealers do not get access to Cult Creeds? The following are some snippets from Geoff Robinson's video. They are blurry, but I see nothing that restricts the Genestealers from their Patriarch's creed.
Jrandom wrote: Why do people feel that Genestealers do not get access to Cult Creeds? The following are some snippets from Geoff Robinson's video. They are blurry, but I see nothing that restricts the Genestealers from their Patriarch's creed.
It is under another section called Cult Creeds., just before where they list what the cult traits give.
Jrandom wrote: Why do people feel that Genestealers do not get access to Cult Creeds? The following are some snippets from Geoff Robinson's video. They are blurry, but I see nothing that restricts the Genestealers from their Patriarch's creed.
It is under another section called Cult Creeds., just before where they list what the cult traits give.
This is the best picture I can get of it. Perhaps you can tell me which author of the GSC preview mentioned it? Was it SEOWinters? I have yet to watch his review.
Jrandom wrote: Why do people feel that Genestealers do not get access to Cult Creeds? The following are some snippets from Geoff Robinson's video. They are blurry, but I see nothing that restricts the Genestealers from their Patriarch's creed.
It is under another section called Cult Creeds., just before where they list what the cult traits give.
This is the best picture I can get of it. Perhaps you can tell me which author of the GSC preview mentioned it? Was it SEOWinters? I have yet to watch his review.
Here you go, it's the last sentence: "Genestealer units are an exception and do not gain a cult creed"
Thank you for clearing that up about GS not getting Creeds.
I have been trying to see about any goodness inside of the Hybrid Metamorphs. They are 9 pts a model, you can only get ten of them in a unit. I did notice, that if you replace their Rending Claw, with a 2nd Metamorph Talon, you get a model that has 5 attacks, hitting on 2s, with Str 4 (5 if you go Twisted Helix). Would it be worth it to spend 90pts on a group of these as chaff clearers?
I can't think of any other model (without any support) that can do that, for 9pts each.
I know it's not exactly "Tactics" but I was inspired by another post (Someone rewrote green eggs and ham along the same vain as this)
To the "Spider-man" theme song:
Three armed man three armed man
Shoots whatever his pistols can
from a blip what a suprize
shoots your warlord and he dies
Look out here comes the three armed man
Is he fast listen bud
He's got crazy genestealer blood
Can he hide that's his bread
Sir look out "Bang" your dead
Hay there! There goes the three armed man
In the heat of the night at the scene of a war
Draws his guns fast as light
Heads blow up see the gore
Three armed man Three armed man
Revolutionary three armed man
By the empire he'd deplored
Killing them, is his reward
Look out!! there goes the three armed mannnnn!!
Jrandom wrote: Thank you for clearing that up about GS not getting Creeds.
I have been trying to see about any goodness inside of the Hybrid Metamorphs. They are 9 pts a model, you can only get ten of them in a unit. I did notice, that if you replace their Rending Claw, with a 2nd Metamorph Talon, you get a model that has 5 attacks, hitting on 2s, with Str 4 (5 if you go Twisted Helix). Would it be worth it to spend 90pts on a group of these as chaff clearers?
I can't think of any other model (without any support) that can do that, for 9pts each.
Imho they might be worth it, if you are using them in a Goliath etc. Meaning you have a very limited number of models available, which should have maximum damage output against hordes. I thought about using 10 in a Goliath with Hand Flamers.
You can not summon a unit the first battleround. So round 2 and 3 will be filled with mass deepstrike. Perhaps the later turn will have something with the return to ambush stratagems.
How do people feel about GS not getting the cult creed? I am planing on mixing GSC and tyranids. What are the chances of making a 9" charge? I am almost better of flining GS withe the swarmlord, with him being 'only' 250 points now. It seems the better units to bring with GSC are mining tool hybrids and abominants. Thoughts?
Jrandom wrote: Thank you for clearing that up about GS not getting Creeds.
I have been trying to see about any goodness inside of the Hybrid Metamorphs. They are 9 pts a model, you can only get ten of them in a unit. I did notice, that if you replace their Rending Claw, with a 2nd Metamorph Talon, you get a model that has 5 attacks, hitting on 2s, with Str 4 (5 if you go Twisted Helix). Would it be worth it to spend 90pts on a group of these as chaff clearers?
I can't think of any other model (without any support) that can do that, for 9pts each.
Imho they might be worth it, if you are using them in a Goliath etc. Meaning you have a very limited number of models available, which should have maximum damage output against hordes. I thought about using 10 in a Goliath with Hand Flamers.
They are great. I used 10 of them with double talon in a battle this week and they were insanely good I buffed them with Triple Helix and +1str banner and they went through 20+ chaos cultists like they were nothing, next turn they dragged down a Deamon Prince. 51 attacks hitting on 2s at Strength 6 is insane for a 90pts unit. Easily would consider taking an Icon for rerolling 1s and have a Primus designate an enemy unit to give you rerolling 1s to wound. They are absolute blenders and I think they will easily replace Purestrains in my GSC army.
As much as people complain about codex creep, GSc seem to have the most restricted subfaction tactics of any faction including space marines. Nearly 1/2 of the units in the codex do not gain cult creeds, compared to just about 1/3 of the units in the main space marine codex.
the_scotsman wrote: As much as people complain about codex creep, GSc seem to have the most restricted subfaction tactics of any faction including space marines. Nearly 1/2 of the units in the codex do not gain cult creeds, compared to just about 1/3 of the units in the main space marine codex.
14 of the 22 Sisters units in the lack luster beta dex don't get Convictions....
the_scotsman wrote: As much as people complain about codex creep, GSc seem to have the most restricted subfaction tactics of any faction including space marines. Nearly 1/2 of the units in the codex do not gain cult creeds, compared to just about 1/3 of the units in the main space marine codex.
14 of the 22 Sisters units in the lack luster beta dex don't get Convictions....
the_scotsman wrote: As much as people complain about codex creep, GSc seem to have the most restricted subfaction tactics of any faction including space marines. Nearly 1/2 of the units in the codex do not gain cult creeds, compared to just about 1/3 of the units in the main space marine codex.
14 of the 22 Sisters units in the lack luster beta dex don't get Convictions....
the_scotsman wrote: As much as people complain about codex creep, GSc seem to have the most restricted subfaction tactics of any faction including space marines. Nearly 1/2 of the units in the codex do not gain cult creeds, compared to just about 1/3 of the units in the main space marine codex.
14 of the 22 Sisters units in the lack luster beta dex don't get Convictions....
Oh, rip lol.
-=Removed for a Rule #1 violation. Not acceptable language. -Lorek =-
the_scotsman wrote: As much as people complain about codex creep, GSc seem to have the most restricted subfaction tactics of any faction including space marines. Nearly 1/2 of the units in the codex do not gain cult creeds, compared to just about 1/3 of the units in the main space marine codex.
14 of the 22 Sisters units in the lack luster beta dex don't get Convictions....
Oh, rip lol.
Oh I guess you didn't actually want facts - well FU maybe stop whining about your "problems" M8
What? I just hadn't realized the situation was that bad for the sisters stuff. Chill, buddy. "rip" is just a joking expression for "oh no, that thing is dead." Like a gravestone.
the_scotsman wrote: As much as people complain about codex creep, GSc seem to have the most restricted subfaction tactics of any faction including space marines. Nearly 1/2 of the units in the codex do not gain cult creeds, compared to just about 1/3 of the units in the main space marine codex.
I'm genuinely not sure but can't the Genestealers and Patriarch benefit from Tyranid keyworded buffs? I don't know off the top of my head if there are any, mind you.
the_scotsman wrote: As much as people complain about codex creep, GSc seem to have the most restricted subfaction tactics of any faction including space marines. Nearly 1/2 of the units in the codex do not gain cult creeds, compared to just about 1/3 of the units in the main space marine codex.
I'm genuinely not sure but can't the Genestealers and Patriarch benefit from Tyranid keyworded buffs? I don't know off the top of my head if there are any, mind you.
There is a faq that adds the buffs according to the type of "hive"
Also there is other faq that prevents using stratagems, reliqs, warlord traits and powers with cult, but I think there are doubts about if they can benefit from them.
Jrandom wrote: Thank you for clearing that up about GS not getting Creeds.
I have been trying to see about any goodness inside of the Hybrid Metamorphs. They are 9 pts a model, you can only get ten of them in a unit. I did notice, that if you replace their Rending Claw, with a 2nd Metamorph Talon, you get a model that has 5 attacks, hitting on 2s, with Str 4 (5 if you go Twisted Helix). Would it be worth it to spend 90pts on a group of these as chaff clearers?
I can't think of any other model (without any support) that can do that, for 9pts each.
Imho they might be worth it, if you are using them in a Goliath etc. Meaning you have a very limited number of models available, which should have maximum damage output against hordes. I thought about using 10 in a Goliath with Hand Flamers.
They are great. I used 10 of them with double talon in a battle this week and they were insanely good I buffed them with Triple Helix and +1str banner and they went through 20+ chaos cultists like they were nothing, next turn they dragged down a Deamon Prince. 51 attacks hitting on 2s at Strength 6 is insane for a 90pts unit. Easily would consider taking an Icon for rerolling 1s and have a Primus designate an enemy unit to give you rerolling 1s to wound. They are absolute blenders and I think they will easily replace Purestrains in my GSC army.
Afaik 10 Metamorphs with double Talon and Hand Flamers will cost
Metamorphs 9
2x Talon 2x1
Hand Flamer 1
12 points per model. The price is almost double that of acolytes, so you probably think twice about using them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I just calculated how many points you pay for each hit for the two units.
Acolytes with Handflamer
4.0 pts per hit
Metamorphs with 2x Talon and Handflamer
2.88 pts per hit
So they really are significantly better for horde clearing. But I did not consider that the acolytes will have 2 attacks with rending claws and the metamorphs have no ap.
I still think that metamorphs will be better for horde clearing pointwise.
Jrandom wrote: Thank you for clearing that up about GS not getting Creeds.
I have been trying to see about any goodness inside of the Hybrid Metamorphs. They are 9 pts a model, you can only get ten of them in a unit. I did notice, that if you replace their Rending Claw, with a 2nd Metamorph Talon, you get a model that has 5 attacks, hitting on 2s, with Str 4 (5 if you go Twisted Helix). Would it be worth it to spend 90pts on a group of these as chaff clearers?
I can't think of any other model (without any support) that can do that, for 9pts each.
Imho they might be worth it, if you are using them in a Goliath etc. Meaning you have a very limited number of models available, which should have maximum damage output against hordes. I thought about using 10 in a Goliath with Hand Flamers.
They are great. I used 10 of them with double talon in a battle this week and they were insanely good I buffed them with Triple Helix and +1str banner and they went through 20+ chaos cultists like they were nothing, next turn they dragged down a Deamon Prince. 51 attacks hitting on 2s at Strength 6 is insane for a 90pts unit. Easily would consider taking an Icon for rerolling 1s and have a Primus designate an enemy unit to give you rerolling 1s to wound. They are absolute blenders and I think they will easily replace Purestrains in my GSC army.
Afaik 10 Metamorphs with double Talon and Hand Flamers will cost
Metamorphs 9
2x Talon 2x1
Hand Flamer 1
12 points per model. The price is almost double that of acolytes, so you probably think twice about using them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I just calculated how many points you pay for each hit for the two units.
Acolytes with Handflamer
4.0 pts per hit
Metamorphs with 2x Talon and Handflamer
2.88 pts per hit
So they really are significantly better for horde clearing. But I did not consider that the acolytes will have 2 attacks with rending claws and the metamorphs have no ap.
I still think that metamorphs will be better for horde clearing pointwise.
I think the problem is, if you want to use both your hand flamer and your melee gear for horde clearing, you're not deep striking. I think it's significantly tougher to bring a unit to bear out of a transport than out of deep strike. And even then, I would most likely want to use Genestealers, who have the highest threat range popping out of a transport (3+8+D6+2D6" is a pretty good threat)
Well, with twisted helix they advance and charge from a transport at the exact same pace if you psychic stimulus them. They also don't drop an attack after 1 casualty, but are less durable. IDK which I'd rather take honestly.
That's the main issue I have with metamorphs, and granted it isn't a major one, they are required to be tailored to a job and usually there is something else competing with them that does the same job and something else.
It is interesting how you can stat pump them though. Claw metas from helix with might cast on them near the relic banner for example are s9 4(5?) attacks which is hilarious. It's way too pricey for me though since they are half the cost of an Abberant at that point. Maybe a small unit with talons would be OK as a bully unit in your back field or midfield hidden out of sight.
I got some orders today already as I mentioned in the rumors.
The power hammer is different than we thought.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Niiai wrote: You can not summon a unit the first battleround. So round 2 and 3 will be filled with mass deepstrike. Perhaps the later turn will have something with the return to ambush stratagems.
How do people feel about GS not getting the cult creed? I am planing on mixing GSC and tyranids. What are the chances of making a 9" charge? I am almost better of flining GS withe the swarmlord, with him being 'only' 250 points now. It seems the better units to bring with GSC are mining tool hybrids and abominants. Thoughts?
Genestealers have two main advantages in GSC codex.
They are huge with a perfect Ambush Strategem.
They like to use the blip mechanic, because the opponent cannot avoid them easily.
Astmeister wrote: Rules question : does a unit get +1 on charge, when they first come out of a transport, if they are Co4ae even if it is not first turn?
In principle it will still be the first turn that they are put on the battlefield.
Yeah, RAW right now, if you deploy them in the transport they're not "on the battlefield" until they first disembark.
So they'd get the +1 to charge (and advance, which they could actually use!)
That's actually pretty awesome. I never realized that interaction.
I'm on the opposite end from WAAC, so i refuse to ever take multiple factions in the same list even though it's obviously the way to go. It feels cheesy and wrong to me. That makes it a bit of a bummer that 4ae is almost necessary to make cult work, but becomes useless after turn 2. If this holds true it might make me want to use 4ae for my lists.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote: As much as people complain about codex creep, GSc seem to have the most restricted subfaction tactics of any faction including space marines. Nearly 1/2 of the units in the codex do not gain cult creeds, compared to just about 1/3 of the units in the main space marine codex.
I've been saying this for the past week. Seems like a big flaw in the codex and i don't know why GW insists on having schizophrenia where some armies have factions that apply to every model and others have faction rules that only apply to a small handful of models.
With regards to chaff clearance, what about a 20 man unit of Brood Brothers, armed with Lasguns, using FRFSRF? They can potentially get +1 to hit, rerolling 1s to hit and wound. You don’t have to spend any CP (unlike the IG who would have to spend 1 to mob up a 20 man unit).
Having those bodies around, their secondary role (or maybe even primary) would be to provide extra wounds for characters via the Unquestioning Loyalty.
So you send them straight up the table and hopefully after they get off a FRFSRF volley, they might shock your opponent into drawing fire away from the Acolytes.
Jrandom wrote: With regards to chaff clearance, what about a 20 man unit of Brood Brothers, armed with Lasguns, using FRFSRF? They can potentially get +1 to hit, rerolling 1s to hit and wound. You don’t have to spend any CP (unlike the IG who would have to spend 1 to mob up a 20 man unit).
Having those bodies around, their secondary role (or maybe even primary) would be to provide extra wounds for characters via the Unquestioning Loyalty.
So you send them straight up the table and hopefully after they get off a FRFSRF volley, they might shock your opponent into drawing fire away from the Acolytes.
I think that the BB are restricted to 10 models + heavy weapons team.
I think that the BB are restricted to 10 models + heavy weapons team.
You can have 20 models.
But, I just discovered that the Kelermorph and Jackal Alphus won't affect them, since they only affect Cult units. So no FRFSRF and reroll 1s to hit at the same time. No +1 to hit. :(
But, I just discovered that the Kelermorph and Jackal Alphus won't affect them, since they only affect Cult units. So no FRFSRF and reroll 1s to hit at the same time. No +1 to hit. :(
I spy "cult vox caster" upgrade... Same as standard Astra Militarum one?
Brood Brother squads could be quite nasty, but I still feel like neos are the best option. For 1 point more you get the ability to Deepstrike into rapid fire range,
Having said that, as a primarily IG player, the ability to take 20 Guardsmen in a squad is very nice. I actually feel like this opens up the possibility for a pure Neo and Broodbrother horde army. A Battalion of Cult with 6x 20 man neo squads with Grenade Launchers and Mining Laser. Another Cult Battalion with 6x 20 man BB squads with Grenade Launcher and Lascannon. Take a Astra Militarum Supreme Command Detachment with 3x Company Comanders in it. Support both blobs with a Patriach and Iconward to make fearless and have a 6+++ save. Total of 240 bodies with 12 Mining Laser, 6 Lascannon and 24 Grenade Launchers.
The crazy thing is this is only about 1850 points, so you have enough points to chuck in a Kelamorph and Jackel Alpha.
End result, 120 guys deepstrike in with hitting on 3s rerolling 1s and 120 guys moving up the field with 2-4 shots per guy per turn.
FatBoyNoSlim wrote: Brood Brother squads could be quite nasty, but I still feel like neos are the best option. For 1 point more you get the ability to Deepstrike into rapid fire range,
Having said that, as a primarily IG player, the ability to take 20 Guardsmen in a squad is very nice. I actually feel like this opens up the possibility for a pure Neo and Broodbrother horde army. A Battalion of Cult with 6x 20 man neo squads with Grenade Launchers and Mining Laser. Another Cult Battalion with 6x 20 man BB squads with Grenade Launcher and Lascannon. Take a Astra Militarum Supreme Command Detachment with 3x Company Comanders in it. Support both blobs with a Patriach and Iconward to make fearless and have a 6+++ save. Total of 240 bodies with 12 Mining Laser, 6 Lascannon and 24 Grenade Launchers.
The crazy thing is this is only about 1850 points, so you have enough points to chuck in a Kelamorph and Jackel Alpha.
End result, 120 guys deepstrike in with hitting on 3s rerolling 1s and 120 guys moving up the field with 2-4 shots per guy per turn.
If you are going with a good amount of Neophytes, while the Kelamorph and Jackal Alphus are great, I would add a Primus in the list as well. The Primus gives a permanent "reroll 1s to wound" debuff against 1 enemy unit the first time he enters the battlefield (to all Cult units within 6".) Then with your list, the Primus could serve as melee support to the blobs in later turns (for a mere 72pts.) The JA is basically a free "Overlapping Fields of Fire" each round for all units of the same Cult (so +1 to hit 1 specific unit per turn). I will add a pic of the Kelamorph's "Heroic Deeds" at the end for folks who missed it on the Warhammer Community page.
Can we definitely give orders to BB infantry squads? Having auto orders is pretty powerful on a 20 man unit. Makes them half way to being the old conscripts...
DoomMouse wrote: Can we definitely give orders to BB infantry squads? Having auto orders is pretty powerful on a 20 man unit. Makes them half way to being the old conscripts...
RAW right now, you can. I have a sneaking suspicion that that was not intended, mainly because of the 20-man squadcap, the fact that you could order bullgryns, and the fact that they replaced the Vox Caster rule with a morale reroll for BB squads.
I suspect the line that says "Does not get regiment doctrines, orders, relics" did not mean "Regiment doctrines, regiment orders, regiment relics" but instead meant "Regiment doctrines, ANY orders, ANY relics."
I would refrain from making any purchases with orders in mind until the 2-week FAQ has passed.
Timeshadow wrote: So the kellermorph. I was told by someone that he only gets extra hits vs opp's with a pistol?
That is correct. But I do not see any problem there. He is an absolute killer with his pistols and should not go into melee anyway. Or what is your question referring to?
DoomMouse wrote: Can we definitely give orders to BB infantry squads? Having auto orders is pretty powerful on a 20 man unit. Makes them half way to being the old conscripts...
RAW right now, you can. I have a sneaking suspicion that that was not intended, mainly because of the 20-man squadcap, the fact that you could order bullgryns, and the fact that they replaced the Vox Caster rule with a morale reroll for BB squads.
I suspect the line that says "Does not get regiment doctrines, orders, relics" did not mean "Regiment doctrines, regiment orders, regiment relics" but instead meant "Regiment doctrines, ANY orders, ANY relics."
I would refrain from making any purchases with orders in mind until the 2-week FAQ has passed.
I'm just thinking of the horrible board control I could grab with 20 man units move-move-moving up the board while staying in range of a fearless-making patriarch
Yeah I guess I could see them stopping that. Hope they keep orders for allied AM detachments though, losing them would really make brood brothers AM-1
I am really getting sick of all the nerfing of the GSC that GW is doing. I would love to see the Ynnari’s allied detachments only count for 1/2 CPs, for their characters to be limited to 1 per detachment, and for their best melee character be forced to become the Warlord. While we are at it, lets remove all faction bonuses from their allies, but give them +1 leadership and “look out sir.”
Jrandom are you trolling? What do you mean nerfing the GSC? You are saying the index is better then the codex the day before release. Sounds like a poorly worded opinion or a troll baiting. Anyway, you are welcome to your opinion. I the mean time I am gonne have funn with all these new rules!
DoomMouse wrote: Can we definitely give orders to BB infantry squads? Having auto orders is pretty powerful on a 20 man unit. Makes them half way to being the old conscripts...
RAW right now, you can. I have a sneaking suspicion that that was not intended, mainly because of the 20-man squadcap, the fact that you could order bullgryns, and the fact that they replaced the Vox Caster rule with a morale reroll for BB squads.
I suspect the line that says "Does not get regiment doctrines, orders, relics" did not mean "Regiment doctrines, regiment orders, regiment relics" but instead meant "Regiment doctrines, ANY orders, ANY relics."
I would refrain from making any purchases with orders in mind until the 2-week FAQ has passed.
I'm just thinking of the horrible board control I could grab with 20 man units move-move-moving up the board while staying in range of a fearless-making patriarch
Yeah I guess I could see them stopping that. Hope they keep orders for allied AM detachments though, losing them would really make brood brothers AM-1
I am half hopeful that BB units will still be able to receive orders after the 2 week FAQ. After all, they are defecting guard units. If they do lose the ability then so be it. I have started to warm to BB squads since i found out they can take 20 man squads. I mean 1 point for cult ambush and cult traits is not a lot, but if you want to save those points then at least we have the option.
BTW it may sound crazy but I have been thinking about the acolyte flamer bomber and I am not convinced it is actually worth it . Ok so here me out please. A flamer bomb is gonna cost 160 points for 20 acolytes with hand flamers. No taking out the fact that 6" is a really short range and not all are likely to be in range of a single unit, lets look at how effective this unit will be. On average we are looking at 70ish auto hits, which is gonna result in 35 wounds. The end result is 22 dead GEQ. Now I am using guard as the base of this thought process because Infantry Squads are currently some of the most cost effective chaff. but 22 dead guard is 2 Guard Infantry Squads is only 80 points. So your flamer bomb has only got back half its points. Any IG player worth his salt is gonna have 100 infantry minimum and probably spread out across 2 lines of screens . Now obviously someone might put a few upgrades on those squads, with the most common combos being Plasma/Heavy Bolter or Autocannon/Grenade Launcher, but even with this taken into account the flamer bomb is A) not gonna gets its points back and B) not gonna break the double screen screen.
Jrandom wrote: I am really getting sick of all the nerfing of the GSC that GW is doing. I would love to see the Ynnari’s allied detachments only count for 1/2 CPs, for their characters to be limited to 1 per detachment, and for their best melee character be forced to become the Warlord. While we are at it, lets remove all faction bonuses from their allies, but give them +1 leadership and “look out sir.”
I mean, on one hand yes, the allied GEQ stuff GSC can get is pretty garbage compared to straight codex guard.
That's almost certainly the intention. Nobody wants GSC to be a couple units and then a guard brigade. I mean, I certainly don't. If you want to run mostly guard stuff, you could. I dunno. Play guard.
I fully expect no orders for our guard stuff. The writing is on the wall IMO, and if they leave it up after the 2-week FAQ I suspect we'd see it coming down the pipe when people start taking 20-man BB infantry squads and issuing FRFSRF orders to them, or Move-Move-Moving max squads of BB ogryns straight at the enemy lines turn 1 with Nightshroud and Barrier up on them.
Brood Bros should be used for cheap HS slots, cheap FA slots, and turn 1 chaff removal with models that start on the board so your GSC stuff can deep strike. Use them as an alternative to nid allies if you don't like the looks of nids.
I expect a competitive GSC list to either be 2 GSC detachments (small one to get CTFAE, large one for a more combat focused cult) and 1 detachment either guard or nids either with a heavy focus on screen removal turn 1. So something like a flyer wing of vulture gunships or a spearhead of a pair of punisher tank commanders and 3 wyverns, or for a nid detachment a supreme command of dakkafexes or swarmy+genestealers.
Jrandom wrote: I am really getting sick of all the nerfing of the GSC that GW is doing. I would love to see the Ynnari’s allied detachments only count for 1/2 CPs, for their characters to be limited to 1 per detachment, and for their best melee character be forced to become the Warlord. While we are at it, lets remove all faction bonuses from their allies, but give them +1 leadership and “look out sir.”
I know how you feel, I felt the same way when I first read the codex leak, but trust me GSC have not been nerfed. Here me out before you dismiss what I have to say. GSC are really powerful, like potentially meta changing powerful. Whilst at first the all the little restrictions seem to hamper our ability they are actually there point us in the right direction and to encourage us to stand on our own two (or more) feet. And I am not just saying this without any real life testing. i have done a couple of GSC games now with the new rules and won both handily.
Niiai wrote: Jrandom are you trolling? What do you mean nerfing the GSC? You are saying the index is better then the codex the day before release. Sounds like a poorly worded opinion or a troll baiting. Anyway, you are welcome to your opinion. I the mean time I am gonne have funn with all these new rules!
Please name another faction that has so many restrictions on their allies. I guess you could say Orks and Necrons. But Imperials, Chaos, and Eldar have zero restrictions on their allies and no one is saying “that isn’t in the fluff.....” when they are min-maxing the sickest combos.
Niiai wrote: Jrandom are you trolling? What do you mean nerfing the GSC? You are saying the index is better then the codex the day before release. Sounds like a poorly worded opinion or a troll baiting. Anyway, you are welcome to your opinion. I the mean time I am gonne have funn with all these new rules!
Please name another faction that has so many restrictions on their allies. I guess you could say Orks and Necrons. But Imperials, Chaos, and Eldar have zero restrictions on their allies and no one is saying “that isn’t in the fluff.....” when they are min-maxing the sickest combos.
I mean, for starters, the factions that have no allies, like you said.
Drukhari have extreme restrictions on being able to claim subfaction tactics - you have about 6-10 units that can take advantage of any given subfaction tactic, and all of them are limited to a single HQ and a single Troop choice per detachment. Theyre still considered one of the best factions in the game, because what you CAN do with them is incredibly good.
That's where GSC land. If you want unrestricted allies...ally nids instead of guard. You can ally freely with them, get full CPs, etc.
I would much much much much much much rather be in the situation of Drukhari, where what I can do with my own faction/allies is slightly limited but highly competitive, than in the situation of space marines, where my ally options are KILLER but my own codex is so garbage that it just makes more sense to play 90% allies than my own chosen faction.
That is where I want GSC to be with respect to those guard ally options. Please, give me reasons to take neophytes over Brood Bro infantry. Please, make allied guard battalions worse than straight GSC battalions. Please give me a reason to consider GSC vehicles over allied guard vehicles, or a reason to take GSC commanders over allied guard HQs.
Sure, you can go "but competitive imperial armies can take guard with no restrictions!" but that's not a good thing about them, it's a bad thing. It means competitive imperial lists just straight up ARE GUARD and people who want to play those armies have to spend more time painting guardsmen than the faction they'd actually like to be playing.
Brood brothers existing and having full access to the guard vehicle catalog is a good thing.
making sure that guard catalog is not the most competitive thing so players wanting to make a competitive GSC list don't have to paint 60 guardsmen is also a VERY GOOD THING.
I am half hopeful that BB units will still be able to receive orders after the 2 week FAQ. After all, they are defecting guard units. If they do lose the ability then so be it. I have started to warm to BB squads since i found out they can take 20 man squads. I mean 1 point for cult ambush and cult traits is not a lot, but if you want to save those points then at least we have the option.
Not sure if you are aware, but those 20 man BB units also have cult ambush. FRFSRF here I come!
AAaaaand this is why I hope they DONT keep orders.
Because 2 units of 20 bbs can cult ambush in and if you can get a 30-point allied BB company commander within range of them you can put out more firepower than 20 acolytes with hand flamers using the 2CP stratagem to get close.
Niiai wrote: Jrandom are you trolling? What do you mean nerfing the GSC? You are saying the index is better then the codex the day before release. Sounds like a poorly worded opinion or a troll baiting. Anyway, you are welcome to your opinion. I the mean time I am gonne have funn with all these new rules!
Please name another faction that has so many restrictions on their allies. I guess you could say Orks and Necrons. But Imperials, Chaos, and Eldar have zero restrictions on their allies and no one is saying “that isn’t in the fluff.....” when they are min-maxing the sickest combos.
I mean, for starters, the factions that have no allies, like you said.
Drukhari have extreme restrictions on being able to claim subfaction tactics - you have about 6-10 units that can take advantage of any given subfaction tactic, and all of them are limited to a single HQ and a single Troop choice per detachment. Theyre still considered one of the best factions in the game, because what you CAN do with them is incredibly good.
That's where GSC land. If you want unrestricted allies...ally nids instead of guard. You can ally freely with them, get full CPs, etc.
I would much much much much much much rather be in the situation of Drukhari, where what I can do with my own faction/allies is slightly limited but highly competitive, than in the situation of space marines, where my ally options are KILLER but my own codex is so garbage that it just makes more sense to play 90% allies than my own chosen faction.
That is where I want GSC to be with respect to those guard ally options. Please, give me reasons to take neophytes over Brood Bro infantry. Please, make allied guard battalions worse than straight GSC battalions. Please give me a reason to consider GSC vehicles over allied guard vehicles, or a reason to take GSC commanders over allied guard HQs.
Sure, you can go "but competitive imperial armies can take guard with no restrictions!" but that's not a good thing about them, it's a bad thing. It means competitive imperial lists just straight up ARE GUARD and people who want to play those armies have to spend more time painting guardsmen than the faction they'd actually like to be playing.
Brood brothers existing and having full access to the guard vehicle catalog is a good thing.
making sure that guard catalog is not the most competitive thing so players wanting to make a competitive GSC list don't have to paint 60 guardsmen is also a VERY GOOD THING.
First off, that was an excellent post that I just exalted. But why limit the GSC characters to 1 per Detachment? GW has already put in the limit of three. Now you basically can’t take the Drill terrain piece (or any other fortification,) if you want allies, since you can’t take all the characters you want in one detachment.
GSC could do a pretty cheap brigade now, could they not?
elites would be CP guy, assassin and kellemorph.
Fast attack 3x sentinels
Heavy support: 3 heavy weapons teams
Leaders: Your choise
Troops: Cheap tropps and 2 blogs to come in from reserve.
Niiai wrote: GSC could do a pretty cheap brigade now, could they not?
elites would be CP guy, assassin and kellemorph.
Fast attack 3x sentinels
Heavy support: 3 heavy weapons teams
Leaders: Your choise
Troops: Cheap tropps and 2 blogs to come in from reserve.
Now that I think of it, the BB Heavy Weapons teams have Cult Ambush as well and since the units coming out of ambush do not count as moving, you could fire at 4+ (3+ with a Jackal Alphus on the board). Is there any mojo in popping up HW Teams under perfect LOS conditions?
Niiai wrote: Jrandom are you trolling? What do you mean nerfing the GSC? You are saying the index is better then the codex the day before release. Sounds like a poorly worded opinion or a troll baiting. Anyway, you are welcome to your opinion. I the mean time I am gonne have funn with all these new rules!
Please name another faction that has so many restrictions on their allies. I guess you could say Orks and Necrons. But Imperials, Chaos, and Eldar have zero restrictions on their allies and no one is saying “that isn’t in the fluff.....” when they are min-maxing the sickest combos.
I mean, for starters, the factions that have no allies, like you said.
Drukhari have extreme restrictions on being able to claim subfaction tactics - you have about 6-10 units that can take advantage of any given subfaction tactic, and all of them are limited to a single HQ and a single Troop choice per detachment. Theyre still considered one of the best factions in the game, because what you CAN do with them is incredibly good.
That's where GSC land. If you want unrestricted allies...ally nids instead of guard. You can ally freely with them, get full CPs, etc.
I would much much much much much much rather be in the situation of Drukhari, where what I can do with my own faction/allies is slightly limited but highly competitive, than in the situation of space marines, where my ally options are KILLER but my own codex is so garbage that it just makes more sense to play 90% allies than my own chosen faction.
That is where I want GSC to be with respect to those guard ally options. Please, give me reasons to take neophytes over Brood Bro infantry. Please, make allied guard battalions worse than straight GSC battalions. Please give me a reason to consider GSC vehicles over allied guard vehicles, or a reason to take GSC commanders over allied guard HQs.
Sure, you can go "but competitive imperial armies can take guard with no restrictions!" but that's not a good thing about them, it's a bad thing. It means competitive imperial lists just straight up ARE GUARD and people who want to play those armies have to spend more time painting guardsmen than the faction they'd actually like to be playing.
Brood brothers existing and having full access to the guard vehicle catalog is a good thing.
making sure that guard catalog is not the most competitive thing so players wanting to make a competitive GSC list don't have to paint 60 guardsmen is also a VERY GOOD THING.
First off, that was an excellent post that I just exalted. But why limit the GSC characters to 1 per Detachment? GW has already put in the limit of three. Now you basically can’t take the Drill terrain piece (or any other fortification,) if you want allies, since you can’t take all the characters you want in one detachment.
Probably because the new characters have abilities similar to what other factions only get on their named characters. The biologis could have been "Dr. Gene Splicimus Tealur, Twisted Helix Aberrant Mad Scientist" and the Jackal Alphus could have been "Jeanne 'Steel' Ur, Rusted Claw biker vanguard" but by limiting them to 1 detachment we can use them in any cult.
Personally, I'd be jazzed if my orks had their characters genericised and I could have a special Kommando boss, a special stormboy boss and a special mega armor warboss using the snikrot zagstruk and ghazghkull models, but for whatever clan I painted my models as.
Look at Kellermorph. That dude's abilities would be completely unforgivable on a character you could take 3 times in a single vanguard detachment (heck, they're probably unforgivable anyway...)
There has been a lot of solid discussion on this last page. Well done, everyone.
I'm still saddened by the fact I can't put cult infantry models in Chimeras anymore. The Goliath Truck is just not my cup of tea. Plus I have a sizeable guard army (the reason I started GSC was I thought it would be a cheaper Xenos army) and now my Chimeras are pretty much useless here. Those darn Goliath kits are so expensive!
What I'm picking up from this page of discussion is that I can take a AM detachment - which I plan to do anyways - and the Company Commander from that detachment can give orders to my Brood Brother Infantry Squad taken from Codex: Genestealer Cults, that unit being in the GSC detachment.
The reason for this is the keyword <Brood Brothers> in the Brood Brothers Infanty Squad dataseet and the Company Commanders ability to give orders to units that share his <Regiment> keyword, in this case <Brood Brothers>. Is that all correct?
today I played 1800 points against necrons. 22 command points, and on turn 4 I had 0 ...
This army really needs a lot of CPs..
I played brigade battalion twisted helix (and broodsorge) with patriarch, acolyte iconward, and primus, nexus, clamavus, 10 aberrants picks (2 metamorphs), 20 acolytes hand flamers, 19 acolytes 6 saws and icon, 4x6 acolyes, 3 sentinels flamers, and 3x3 mortars. And a battalion 4armed emperor with 3x10 broodbrothers, magus and jackal. Also 140 points for reinforcement.
I spent 1 cp in broodsurge and other to give rerolls chargues, 1 with broodcoven, 3 to give 2 reliqs(prevent overwatch to primus and banner +1 S to iconward), also 1 to change 3 blips to reserves.
I spend 2 in summon a unit, and other to reroll one dice to chargue with that unit (that i fail too )
2 to lying in wait with flamers (that kill 3 necrons..) 3 for perfect ambush with aberrants.. and other 3 to atack again after leaving a tesseract with 2 wounds... Other 3 cps in perfect ambush with the big unit of acolytes.
And some cps to rerolls, as trying to control the tesseract 2 turns that I did not get
I won by points but the 2 armies have run out of miniatures .
The codex is very powerful, many combos, but either you kill or you die too easy. My friend's list was a bit focused against me, with a lot of saturation with little rend, and also i have had very bad throws (with the new cult dices..)
So it's just a small thing, but I noticed that Cult Chimera and Leman Russ can take items from the Vehicle Upgrade list:
Augur Array: Once per battle, in the Shooting phase, you can re-roll a single failed hit roll (5 points)
Track Guards: Always counts as having its starting number of wounds when determining its Move characteristic (10 points)
Dozer Blade: +1 to hit in fight phase (5 points)
During setup, you put 50% of your Power-Level underground, then you put the remaining 50% in the form of blips. After the game has started, let's say you go first, at the start of your movement, you are forced to reveal all of your blips. You then play "They Came From Below" to put 3 blip units into reserves. At the end of your movement, you put another unit into reserves using "Return to the Shadows." At the end of your first turn, you effectively have 80% of your forces in reserve at this point. As I do not have CA 2018, I am questioning if this is legitimate.
If it isn't legitimate, doesn't that nerf the usefulness of these 2 stratagems? Especially, since you can only put into play your reserves on turn 2 and 3. Additionally, there is limited usefulness of starting with 80-90% of your units in blip form, just to put them into reserve on turn one for the cost of 2 CP (so you can keep 50% of your Power-Level on the table at all times). Also, do you have to keep track of your remaining Power-Level during the game (which changes based on causalities) just to make sure that when you are putting units into reserve, that you don't cross the 50% threshold?
We will see, maybe I have some crow pie coming but I don't think it deserves the cold shoulder yet. So I think we should encourage it's play testing at least, not writing it off.
