Jesus it just feels odd looking at a normal marine now. Which is annoying cas now I wish I could have giant Templars but just heads and pads won't cut it.
"Core" Rules are free as a 12 page downloadable PDF. These rules only cover Open Play.
Unit rules will not be available as downloadable PDFs as they are with Age of Sigmar. On Day 1, we'll have to purchase between one and five stop gap 'Index' books that show all unit datasheets and point values for Matched Play. At some point in the future, army specific Codexes will be released with additional army specific rules/missions/etc. Depending on faction, we may have to wait months or years for a proper 8th edition Codex. Rumored price for each 'Index' book is ~$25 USD.
Matched Play rules will only be available in a 280 page, hardbound core rule book, which will itself only be available as a standalone purchase or as part of a new starter set. Rumored price is ~$50 for the hardback by itself or ~$150 as part of the starter set.
So... if I want to use my Tau/Necron/Inquisition army to play a Matched Play game, which is to say a competitive game using points... just like 7th, 6th, 5th, etc... I'll need to spend ~$125 on day one and then $100-150 down the road as Codexes become available.
That's a far cry from 'free' rules. Without PDF datasheets, I don't think it's even possible to play an Open Play game for free with these 'free' rules.
To me is absurd how people is assuming that because we are having Indexs we aren't gonna have the dathasleets for free.
As you said, is imposible to play the game with the free rules without the units rules.
At minimun I think we are gonna have the 12 basic rules for free and all the dathasleets with Power Levels for free.
And when the APP launch for 40k, I'm sure that is gonna have all the points on it.
And maybe the core rulebook will have all the points for all the models like GHB. I doub it, because AOS points are more like 40K Power levels.
unmercifulconker wrote: Jesus it just feels odd looking at a normal marine now. Which is annoying cas now I wish I could have giant Templars but just heads and pads won't cut it.
Galas wrote: To me is absurd how people is assuming that because we are having Indexs we aren't gonna have the dathasleets for free.
As you said, is imposible to play the game with the free rules without the units rules.
At minimun I think we are gonna have the 12 basic rules for free and all the dathasleets with Power Levels for free.
And when the APP launch for 40k, I'm sure that is gonna have all the points on it.
And maybe the core rulebook will have all the points for all the models like GHB. I doub it, because AOS points are more like 40K Power levels.
I think the main point of confusion is the infographic on Warhammer Community showing you what you needed to play. I am really hopeful for free unit rules and although the infographic has me doubting it, I can't see how they would make an app for 40k without them being accesable.
Galas wrote: To me is absurd how people is assuming that because we are having Indexs we aren't gonna have the dathasleets for free.
As you said, is imposible to play the game with the free rules without the units rules.
At minimun I think we are gonna have the 12 basic rules for free and all the dathasleets with Power Levels for free.
And when the APP launch for 40k, I'm sure that is gonna have all the points on it.
And maybe the core rulebook will have all the points for all the models like GHB. I doub it, because AOS points are more like 40K Power levels.
I think the main point of confusion is the infographic on Warhammer Community showing you what you needed to play. I am really hopeful for free unit rules and although the infographic has me doubting it, I can't see how they would make an app for 40k without them being accesable.
If the dataslates with power levels are on each model of the website. Then it's likely they will create an app for the match play points. Also, Battlescribe and Army Builder are very likely to have theirs updated for 8th edition shortly afterwords. This just leaves you with scenarios. Which most tournament organizers give a packet for their individual tournament. So, this just leaves needing the main book if you wish to play the scenarios in non-tournament play.
I'm only looking to have fun with my models to begin with anyway. The new rules look fantastic, I play AoS so Power Levels are fine for a ready reckoner, and I've grown up with the 40k fluff for so long that playing homebrew custom scenarios that are narrative lead sounds like a dream come true. If there are free unit rules I will probably go a bit crazy and buy models from all over the shop
unmercifulconker wrote:
Scale creep my ass. That's a full on sprint.
It'd be scale creep if they were supposed to be the same thing.
unmercifulconker wrote:
Jesus it just feels odd looking at a normal marine now. Which is annoying cas now I wish I could have giant Templars but just heads and pads won't cut it.
Damn that Nurgle Lord is a proper sort!
They said that the heads and shoulder pads are the same size. Probably done to ensure compatibility with the upgrade sprues.
Bottle wrote: I'm only looking to have fun with my models to begin with anyway. The new rules look fantastic, I play AoS so Power Levels are fine for a ready reckoner, and I've grown up with the 40k fluff for so long that playing homebrew custom scenarios that are narrative lead sounds like a dream come true. If there are free unit rules I will probably go a bit crazy and buy models from all over the shop
I'm here, sitting into small forces of Genestealer Cultists, Death Guard, Inquisition and Grey Knights, Orks and Tyranids...
Thats why I play small point games... only Dark Angels and Tau have keep my atention long enough to have a sizable army of them The bright side is that I can play with new people to the game letting them pick one of those small forces, and as they are very varied, I have 0 problems doing 2vs1 or 2vs2 battles to teach them how to play!
Bottle wrote: I'm only looking to have fun with my models to begin with anyway. The new rules look fantastic, I play AoS so Power Levels are fine for a ready reckoner, and I've grown up with the 40k fluff for so long that playing homebrew custom scenarios that are narrative lead sounds like a dream come true. If there are free unit rules I will probably go a bit crazy and buy models from all over the shop
I'm here, sitting into small forces of Genestealer Cultists, Death Guard, Inquisition and Grey Knights, Orks and Tyranids...
Thats why I play small point games... only Dark Angels and Tau have keep my atention long enough to have a sizable army of them The bright side is that I can play with new people to the game letting them pick one of those small forces, and as they are very varied, I have 0 problems doing 2vs1 or 2vs2 battles to teach them how to play!
Sounds like you're living the dream man! You need to host a combat patrol tournament for newbies with all your own stuff :-)
Hmm the Gravis armour is interesting. At first I assumed it was the Primaris Terminator plate, but now I'm not so sure. With the separate power plant and Primaris style legs it looks more like a bulked up MK-X. Its going to be a long three and a half weeks
What a time to be a Death Guard player!
Rules look solid, models look solid, fluff book about DG invading Ultramar, all but confirmed full new plastic kits for everything DG.
I am feeling more disgustingly resilient than when I went to bed last night!!!
unmercifulconker wrote:
Scale creep my ass. That's a full on sprint.
It'd be scale creep if they were supposed to be the same thing.
Oh common now, we all know they are replacing the existing line. They are the new "normal" marines, and all future development will be for them. I'll be happy to eat my words, but the writing is on the wall.
Now, with that said, I'm HAPPY they are making marines the correct size(relative to humans)
GoatboyBeta wrote: Hmm the Gravis armour is interesting. At first I assumed it was the Primaris Terminator plate, but now I'm not so sure. With the separate power plant and Primaris style legs it looks more like a bulked up MK-X. Its going to be a long three and a half weeks
I'm guessing it is Primaris Artificer Armor. It's got the regular PA shoulder pads, which almost don't look oversized on it!
Now, with that said, I'm HAPPY they are making marines the correct size(relative to humans)
This call for "truescale" Marines has never made sense to me. The Marines were fine. It's everything else that is too big. We should be calling for smaller human sized models
This is a miniatures game after all.
In the index books. You'll have to wait for someone to link the source or just trust me.
Thank you for the answer. I guess I'll trust you. And the absence of a source indicates that I am not inapt at searching.
Thanks to DCannon4LifeMade too.
"Core" Rules are free as a 12 page downloadable PDF. These rules only cover Open Play.
Unit rules will not be available as downloadable PDFs as they are with Age of Sigmar. On Day 1, we'll have to purchase between one and five stop gap 'Index' books that show all unit datasheets and point values for Matched Play. At some point in the future, army specific Codexes will be released with additional army specific rules/missions/etc. Depending on faction, we may have to wait months or years for a proper 8th edition Codex. Rumored price for each 'Index' book is ~$25 USD.
Matched Play rules will only be available in a 280 page, hardbound core rule book, which will itself only be available as a standalone purchase or as part of a new starter set. Rumored price is ~$50 for the hardback by itself or ~$150 as part of the starter set.
So... if I want to use my Tau/Necron/Inquisition army to play a Matched Play game, which is to say a competitive game using points... just like 7th, 6th, 5th, etc... I'll need to spend ~$125 on day one and then $100-150 down the road as Codexes become available.
That's a far cry from 'free' rules. Without PDF datasheets, I don't think it's even possible to play an Open Play game for free with these 'free' rules.
GW hasn't said anything to indicate whether or not individual unit rules will be available as free PDFs, but some of the things mentioned shortly after the edition was announced heavily implied it to me. I don't feel confident in saying it'll definitely happen, but with how many other things have been ported over from AoS, I'd be more surprised to NOT see PDF dataslates. As far as the hardback goes, I would expect to see GW following the recent trend of re-releasing the books in softback at a lower price point after a couple months. Definitely too early to get worked up about the cost of entry. We simply don't have enough information yet.
Now, with that said, I'm HAPPY they are making marines the correct size(relative to humans)
This call for "truescale" Marines has never made sense to me. The Marines were fine. It's everything else that is too big. We should be calling for smaller human sized models
This is a miniatures game after all.
-
It's still a miniatures game. They're a tiny bit bigger, it's not like we're suddenly playing with 12" action figures.
Now, with that said, I'm HAPPY they are making marines the correct size(relative to humans)
This call for "truescale" Marines has never made sense to me. The Marines were fine. It's everything else that is too big. We should be calling for smaller human sized models
This is a miniatures game after all.
MasterSlowPoke wrote:
It'd be scale creep if they were supposed to be the same thing.
I think most everyone is aware that the fluff was created to justify selling larger scale marines that people (who own current SM armies that they have poured hundreds of hours into painting) would eventually migrate to.
tneva82 wrote: This is the problem I was talking about. If this is how it goes if unit gets wounded by 4 lascannons that's 4 lascannons you need to roll one by one.
d6. 4 wounds. 4 DR rolls.
d6. 2 wounds. 2 DR rolls
d6. 6 wounds. 6 DR rolls
d6. 1 wound. 1 DR roll
See? That would be very slow rolling! With speed and simplicy being buzzwords I doubt that is how it goes.
That looks completely wrong. Somehow you're rolling for damage twice per lascannon, no wonder it seems so slow to you. Try:
4 lascannons have hit and wounded. Roll saves (if any). Only then, for unsaved wounds, roll d6 damage per unsaved wound, one at a time. You don't cause d6 wounds per lascannon, then roll for damage for each wound. You've essentially squared the damage done per lascannon in your example.
Not a fan of the Primaris. While they still look like Space Marines, they have a more modern sci-fi visuals. I prefere my marines more crude and gothic.
I wonder how marines will coexist in the next couple of releases. I hope we won't see a phase-out of the old scale models.
Now, with that said, I'm HAPPY they are making marines the correct size(relative to humans)
This call for "truescale" Marines has never made sense to me. The Marines were fine. It's everything else that is too big. We should be calling for smaller human sized models
This is a miniatures game after all.
-
Marines has never been "fine". They've always been badly proportioned with weird anatomy.
What have been more than "fine" are all the human sized minis that GW have released in the last couple of years. These new marines are a massive improvement in both scale and proportions over the current ones. I'm not fond of the new jump packs or the gravis armour, but the standard primaries marines are fantastic.
The phaseout is happening. Period. Rhino/Landraider/Landspeeder/Razorback are all 10+ years old. A lot of money to be had in making new kits for those.
The conversion kits (ie. Shoulder pads and/or helmets) for most chapters should have most armies up and rolling in no time. BTs and DAs.. eh..not so much. Very glad I learned to sculpt
Anyone who does happen to be looking for tabards for BTs, Spellcrow has some. No clue if they'll be big enough for the new marines or not but it's something to consider.
Now, with that said, I'm HAPPY they are making marines the correct size(relative to humans)
This call for "truescale" Marines has never made sense to me. The Marines were fine. It's everything else that is too big. We should be calling for smaller human sized models
This is a miniatures game after all.
-
Marines has never been "fine". They've always been badly proportioned with weird anatomy.
What have been more than "fine" are all the human sized minis that GW have released in the last couple of years. These new marines are a massive improvement in both scale and proportions over the current ones. I'm not fond of the new jump packs or the gravis armour, but the standard primaries marines are fantastic.
Not only that but the game isn't a 25mm game as some people have tried asserting. It's supposed to be 28mm. IG are pretty close to being right around 28mm to the eye level. That's the height an "average" human male (I know it's subjective) should be. Yeah, the Cadians have proportion problems (and this is coming from a Catachan player) but height isn't one of those problems. Mickey Mouse hands and feet.. yup.. Short torso.. uh huh. Gorilla arms? You betcha. But that bottom of the feet to eye level is basically where it's at.
People who talk about proportions usually don't understand them very well. I'm an artist and had to spend a lot of time learning proportions. It's not something people just know. The new marines look great to me and are believable as 8' tall superhuman badasses. I would have possibly preferred them to be a bit wider and thicker but I think they refrained to allow compatibility with the older upgrade kits as someone else mentioned.
MLaw wrote: The conversion kits (ie. Shoulder pads and/or helmets) for most chapters should have most armies up and rolling in no time. BTs and DAs.. eh..not so much. Very glad I learned to sculpt
Anyone who does happen to be looking for tabards for BTs, Spellcrow has some. No clue if they'll be big enough for the new marines or not but it's something to consider.
I wonder how marines will coexist in the next couple of releases. I hope we won't see a phase-out of the old scale models.
Me too, although I think the writing is on the wall though, sadly.
I'm hoping they think SM sell well enough to support both ranges. It would be painful to see so many years of 40k fluff and history vanish from a model perspective. The primus marines are cool but as others have said they are very sleek and not as gothic. No studs or rivets on them etc. And that kind of look is part of what has defined 40k for so long. Even if they don't get any more new kits from here on out, i'd hope they get officially supported rules for many more years.
So are are all other non-power armor factions going to be getting new, taller models sooner than later? Or are Marines now going to tower over Orks, Eldar, etc for the long term foreseeable future...?
Dr. Cheesesteak wrote: So are are all other non-power armor factions going to be getting new, taller models sooner than later? Or are Marines now going to tower over Orks, Eldar, etc for the long term foreseeable future...?
For Orks the Nobs and bigger should be about Space marine height. Ork Boyz are not. They are supposed to be just taller than a man but much bulkier. If anything, Grotz might be too tall.
The thing to consider is that humans are supposed to be the metric these things are based on .. not Space Marines. As it stands I believe Tau are about right. Eldar and Dark Eldar might need to be a tad taller, Tyranids are probably okay, Necrons could probably stand a slight upgrade (or just to stand up straight really).. hrm.. other than other humans or Space Marines I think that's it?
Dr. Cheesesteak wrote: So are are all other non-power armor factions going to be getting new, taller models sooner than later? Or are Marines now going to tower over Orks, Eldar, etc for the long term foreseeable future...?
You mean are they finally going to be the size they are supposed to be compared to other factions? It looks like it! Good thing, too.
Currently the movement rules for tanks were FAQ'ed to prevent people from deploying sideways on their 12 inches line, pivoting turn 1 and moving up 12 inches, effectively gaining 0.5 to 1 inche depending on the model size. Basically no parts of your vehicules could finish at more than 12 inches from it's original spot, no matter the facing / pivot.
Those new rules seem to indicate that if you move 12 inches forward, stop and then pivot slightly to get a different angle on your target for LOS purposes you would end up moving the back of your hull more than 12 inches and as such would be illegal.
This seems like it would slow down the current process of measure a spot 6 or 12 inches away from your tank, picking it up and putting it down however you want as long as it's not outside of that original mark. Now if you don't keep the exact same positioning, parts of your hull are bound to have moved more than 12 inches.
Am I understanding this correctly?
You are understanding it correctly but it also hasn't changed at all. It was already in the rules for 7th edition (and 6th also, I think) that if you wanted to move at combat speed then no part of your vehicle hull could move more than 6" from where it started, same for cruising speed and parts of hull moving more than 12". If you want to do a pivot, work out which part of your vehicle will move the furthest and measure from there.
Wulfey wrote: The phaseout is happening. Period. Rhino/Landraider/Landspeeder/Razorback are all 10+ years old. A lot of money to be had in making new kits for those.
They could use some scale creep IMO. They are way too small to have their supposed transport ability.
On a seperate note, anyone else not like the leg positioning of the jetpack numarines?
I wonder how marines will coexist in the next couple of releases. I hope we won't see a phase-out of the old scale models.
Me too, although I think the writing is on the wall though, sadly.
I'm hoping they think SM sell well enough to support both ranges. It would be painful to see so many years of 40k fluff and history vanish from a model perspective. The primus marines are cool but as others have said they are very sleek and not as gothic. No studs or rivets on them etc. And that kind of look is part of what has defined 40k for so long. Even if they don't get any more new kits from here on out, i'd hope they get officially supported rules for many more years.
There's an extremely thin chance of earlier Mark armour released to match the primaris marines in height at some point, but there's exactly zero possibility that current marines are to be "phased out." For one thing, the heresy era range sells very well and can't possibly include primaris marines without a complete retcon of the setting. For another, primaris marines don't serve the same role as regular Tacticals, assault marines and Devastators, deploying in smaller numbers with more specialised equipment.
Honestly this entire "phase out" theory is basically a conspiracy theory with no support beyond the mere fact that new models exist.
tneva82 wrote: This is the problem I was talking about. If this is how it goes if unit gets wounded by 4 lascannons that's 4 lascannons you need to roll one by one.
d6. 4 wounds. 4 DR rolls.
d6. 2 wounds. 2 DR rolls
d6. 6 wounds. 6 DR rolls
d6. 1 wound. 1 DR roll
See? That would be very slow rolling! With speed and simplicy being buzzwords I doubt that is how it goes.
That looks completely wrong. Somehow you're rolling for damage twice per lascannon, no wonder it seems so slow to you. Try:
4 lascannons have hit and wounded. Roll saves (if any). Only then, for unsaved wounds, roll d6 damage per unsaved wound, one at a time. You don't cause d6 wounds per lascannon, then roll for damage for each wound. You've essentially squared the damage done per lascannon in your example.
No, he's assuming that 4 lascannons have hit and wounded and saves have failed to stop the wound. The first lascannon gets 4 damage, 2nd 2 damage, 3rd 6 damage, 4th 1 damage. If they are shooting a unit with the new FNP rule (disgustingly resilient = DR) then each wounded model rolls a save for each damage.
So a model with FNP which suffers 6 damage has to make 6 FNP rolls.
Wulfey wrote: The phaseout is happening. Period. Rhino/Landraider/Landspeeder/Razorback are all 10+ years old. A lot of money to be had in making new kits for those.
They could use some scale creep IMO. They are way too small to have their supposed transport ability.
On a seperate note, anyone else not like the leg positioning of the jetpack numarines?
Its the only thing i dont like about them
i can deal with the mickymouse ear jet pack but the leg pose ticks me the most.
So, I'm late to the ballgame a bit with the latest pics:
Is the Astartes character supposed to be in "Primaris Terminator Armor"? Or is he just godawful huge, standing even taller than normal TDA? Will be a huge bummer if Primaris TDA is just extra-extra tall power armor.
AegisGrimm wrote: So, I'm late to the ballgame a bit with the latest pics:
Is the Astartes character supposed to be in "Primaris Terminator Armor"? Or is he just godawful huge, standing even taller than normal TDA? Will be a huge bummer if Primaris TDA is just extra-extra tall power armor.
AegisGrimm wrote: So, I'm late to the ballgame a bit with the latest pics:
Is the Astartes character supposed to be in "Primaris Terminator Armor"? Or is he just godawful huge, standing even taller than normal TDA? Will be a huge bummer if Primaris TDA is just extra-extra tall power armor.
Nobody knows. Until I saw it in a comparison shot, I thought it was just the Primaris equivalent of artificer armor, but damn it's huge! I hope it's not the equivalent of Terminator armor. I'd like Terminators be more distinct.
Theorising that the godawful jump marines and the captain are in Mark Nine armour, hence the differences and particularly that they're all wearing librarian hoods for no reason.
Nobody knows. Until I saw it in a comparison shot, I thought it was just the Primaris equivalent of artificer armor, but damn it's huge! I hope it's not the equivalent of Terminator armor. I'd like Terminators be more distinct.
Thats what I thought, too. Primaris are already pretty huge in scale, but the character just looks like a Space Marine from a larger-scaled game plunked down next to the rest. He's like a 28mm scale guy in a 15-20mm scale game.
And a pretty awkward pose, too, with a wierd barrel torso.
I'm wondering what sort of statlines primaris characters will have. The standard primaris have one wound and attack over their non-primaris brethren, but if the same is true for characters, then what will differentiate primaris lieutenant from standard captain and a primaris captain from standard chapter master?
AegisGrimm wrote: So, I'm late to the ballgame a bit with the latest pics:
Is the Astartes character supposed to be in "Primaris Terminator Armor"? Or is he just godawful huge, standing even taller than normal TDA? Will be a huge bummer if Primaris TDA is just extra-extra tall power armor.
Jesus it just feels odd looking at a normal marine now. Which is annoying cas now I wish I could have giant Templars but just heads and pads won't cut it.
Damn that Nurgle Lord is a proper sort!
Oh, I'm sure you could get the tabard front pieces to fit like we have for years on termies . Might run the risk of getting a paddlin' from a chaplain for them being to short though. I think the size disparity in size between Initiates and neophytes in a crusader squad will be enormous.
lord marcus wrote: I'm still looking for base sizes for the dark imperium box.
How would someone know, the box is going to be released in 3 weeks
Based on the ruler you can see in that picture.
Primaris and Death guard come on 25mm or 28mm bases.
All characters come on 32mm bases.
The drone, Lord of Contagion , Noxious Blightbringer came on a 40mm base.
The Inceptors come on curved 32mm flight bases.
You are, unfortunately, quite wrong.
Primaris Marines and Plague Marines 32mm
Primaris Characters, 2 Death Guard Characters and Interceptors 40mm
Pox Walkers 25mm
Plague Drone and Lord of Decay 50/60mm
I don't understand the hate on the new jump/jet Primaris. I think they're amazing! I love the huge jetpack with leg supports. Looks good and reminds me of old RT Era art.
In regards to the Gravis Captain size issue, I'm pretty sure he's outright Primarch sized.
I've attached a few comparisons, and note also that the 40k Gulliman model is made artificially larger by being in a suit of life support armour that's effectively a variant on the concept of a dreadnought.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Okay so not only did something go wrong with the attachment process, I don't seem to be able to modify or remove them.
That's what I get for trying to add images from an ipad instead of my laptop, I guess. Sorry.
Still... The Corax picture is one of the three for making my point with. That marine on the scenic base is similar in scale against Corax to a normal marine against the Gravis armour.
Love the fact that the book comes in the starting set and having all the Indexes available from day one (at such a reasonable price) is fantastic, A couple hundred quid and I'll be rolling in 40k goodness for weeks to come.
The "Why isn't a for profit private company not giving me free stuff" comments would be funny is they weren't so sad and deluded, although they definitely have competition from the farcical "I have multiple armies, so I'll need to buy multiple things" crowd. Erm yeah... no s*** Sherlock.
My birthday is on the 16th of June. New 40k on the 17th. What are great present for me!!!
Dr. Cheesesteak wrote: So are are all other non-power armor factions going to be getting new, taller models sooner than later? Or are Marines now going to tower over Orks, Eldar, etc for the long term foreseeable future...?
you should pay attention to the new ork models. Better scale would be to look at the last 3 sets of mega armour orks the last set is now the size of ghazs resin model ..... meaning I expect a massive MC size ghaz soon.
docdoom77 wrote: I don't understand the hate on the new jump/jet Primaris. I think they're amazing! I love the huge jetpack with leg supports. Looks good and reminds me of old RT Era art.
I agree.
If we assume the usual "just about to land" or "leaping in to the air" pose of assault marines, then these look off.
But if we assume that these are skimming over the ground and in flight while using the leg jets for maneuver/stabilization? The legs look fine.
These things aren't assault marines, at least not from the look of it. They are flying marines.
They actually remind me a lot of SAMAS suits from Rifts .
They also appear to be wearing gravis armour as well. Colour me intrigued at the prospect of flying terminators.
In general, I'd say they're my favourite of the bunch in terms of look and composition.
docdoom77 wrote: I don't understand the hate on the new jump/jet Primaris. I think they're amazing! I love the huge jetpack with leg supports. Looks good and reminds me of old RT Era art.
Wearing a librarian's hood, jump pack is attached to the hood rather than the back of the armour, making it essentially connected to the head. No air intakes unlike every other jump pack design. Leg pose is very awkward, and the tread-skate things look weird. The little shields on the half a stormbolter guns look kinda weird. It's strange to see an assault marine unit with no close combat weapons whatsoever.
Just trying to list every design objection specific to them I can think of, both my own and ones I've heard from elsewhere.
What is the purpose of the mini shields on the guns of "not-jet-pack-marines"?
Other than that detail, they seem fine to me, they have this astronaut thing going on..
On topic - Love the death guard. Plague Cultists don't mean as much to me as they might meant to others but love the characters, love the Plague Marines and love the Drone. Very optimistic about further releases in this line based on the video we saw some time back.
Non-plussed about the Marines. They look like Marines but with slightly bulkier armour and about 5mm bigger. I probably come down on the side of thinking the new assault marines look silly, but I suspect its the flying bases (which, if I am honest, I have never liked in any form). I'll get used to them.
I don't know if this has come up... but can anyone explain the True Scale Marine crusade? Its gone and on and on and on and I have never got it. For approaching twenty years its never made sense to me.
Why does it matter if your marines are half a centimetre taller? I cannot understand it.
I like the Jetpack Primaris. The difference is that they look like they could actually stay in the air shooting things. The tipical assault squads have more a Jumpack that a Jetpack. Is just a boost to do big jumps and fall into the enemy.
My only problem with them are the legs. They look like they are floating and not knowing what to do with them. Is the same problem i have with the Kharadron Overlords ballon boys.
Tyel wrote: Non-plussed about the Marines. They look like Marines but with slightly bulkier armour and about 5mm bigger. I probably come down on the side of thinking the new assault marines look silly, but I suspect its the flying bases (which, if I am honest, I have never liked in any form). I'll get used to them.
The jump pack being anchored to the head rather than the back of the model is definately the biggest silly element on them, and it's impossible to unsee once you notice.
Yes, it's attached to their librarian hood thing rather than directly to the helmet, but it still looks distinctly off.
Really hope we don't have to wait too long for a Primaris Assault Squad. (That's if we even get one!)
Uh, there's 3 that come in the new starter, so yes. They are coming!
Well I hope we can get the choppy choppy version and not the bang bang one.
I have a sneaking suspicion that these are not traditional Assault Marines or like them. I think they are more Crisis Suit like. So possibly a Jump Shoot Jump rule or the like.
All I see only makes the decision to stop buying 40k easier. Primaris Marines both fluff and intentions, simpleton rules, busy Nurgle minis.
Seeing the new death guard only makes me want to buy the box of much more menacing finecast ones and Typhus. The former seem cartoonish and AoSy, with a disclaimer that it might be all because of the awful GW painting scheme ruining the look of the minis.
Fun fact, I might still buy the starter. With the new rules being garbage, it only seems fitting to use the old scale minis for modified 5/6/7 ed battles where they belong and the 8th ed starter stuff for some made up skirmish system. Doesn't feel connected anymore and no problem for me ditching the rules and fluff completly.
Btw it's a bit funny that they attempted to modernise the look of space marines but left those awful rings on joints, they scream 80s like nothing else on the minis and don't fit at all. Enough to look at the captain chest and then at the ringy stuff. Other than that, the new marines are solid sf concepts but imo remain a wasted opportunity, maybe in 2030 when they ask again to replace all your hard earned and built stuff, again.
docdoom77 wrote: I don't understand the hate on the new jump/jet Primaris. I think they're amazing! I love the huge jetpack with leg supports. Looks good and reminds me of old RT Era art.
Wearing a librarian's hood, jump pack is attached to the hood rather than the back of the armour, making it essentially connected to the head. No air intakes unlike every other jump pack design. Leg pose is very awkward, and the tread-skate things look weird. The little shields on the half a stormbolter guns look kinda weird. It's strange to see an assault marine unit with no close combat weapons whatsoever.
Just trying to list every design objection specific to them I can think of, both my own and ones I've heard from elsewhere.
They look distinct from psychic hoods to me. Also, if you look, you'll see that the "hood" and the torso are all one piece, it's not an attachment. Finally, they're not assault marines. But I guess it's very subjective. I love them.
docdoom77 wrote: I don't understand the hate on the new jump/jet Primaris. I think they're amazing! I love the huge jetpack with leg supports. Looks good and reminds me of old RT Era art.
I agree.
If we assume the usual "just about to land" or "leaping in to the air" pose of assault marines, then these look off.
But if we assume that these are skimming over the ground and in flight while using the leg jets for maneuver/stabilization? The legs look fine.
These things aren't assault marines, at least not from the look of it. They are flying marines.
They actually remind me a lot of SAMAS suits from Rifts .
They also appear to be wearing gravis armour as well. Colour me intrigued at the prospect of flying terminators.
In general, I'd say they're my favourite of the bunch in terms of look and composition.
Yeah a Space Marine SAMAS was one of the first thoughts I had as well. I wouldn't be surprised if the Interceptors are essentially a SM jet bike unit but with the bike built into there armour.
So I know that the heads and shoulder pads are compatible with the regular Marine kits, but what about weapons and arms? I kinda want to use that shield pistol thing for...something...of some sort.
The plague marine size does urk me a little, mainly because i have over 50 currently plague marines from various incarnations of the range... they all manage to scale together ok... these guys, just wont fit.
Well, aside from missing out on some cool new models and tactical options for your army, then that’s totally cool. You certainly don’t have to include Primaris Space Marines in your Space Marines army. Though when you see the Primaris Redemptor Dreadnought, you’ll want to. Primaris Dreadnought? Did I write that…? Nah. Moving on.
I actually quite like the hood embellishment and I don't think it should be a sacrosanct psykers-only thing. With marines often aping a lot of monastic aesthetics, an armoured hood is a neat not to that.
As for the placement of the jets? It is a fully integrated part of the torso instead of a vestigial jet pack. Where assault marines are standard suits with packs slapped on, the suits worn by interdictors are made with fully integrated jump equipment. The main thrusters, auxilliaries in the feet, and integral skids all seem to point to interdictors being closer to a missing link between bikes and speeders and less straight up assault marines.
These aren't primaris assault marines, these are something very very different from what we can see.
Well, aside from missing out on some cool new models and tactical options for your army, then that’s totally cool. You certainly don’t have to include Primaris Space Marines in your Space Marines army. Though when you see the Primaris Redemptor Dreadnought, you’ll want to. Primaris Dreadnought? Did I write that…? Nah. Moving on.
Latro_ wrote: The plague marine size does urk me a little, mainly because i have over 50 currently plague marines from various incarnations of the range... they all manage to scale together ok... these guys, just wont fit.
You can use them all as Plague Marines and your normal plague marines as CSM with MoN.
JohnnyHell wrote:Oh really? "the new rules being garbage" - the rules we haven't even seen yet? You're just trolling, dude.
We have at this point seen quite a large chunk of the rules. Without a full picture we can't say how game balance is as that has so many interwoven factors, but we're getting an increasingly clear image of what the new edition is like, and the clearer it gets the thinner this kind of comment wears.
Also by the same logic, you could say that a positive opinion of the rules is groundless in identical proportion to a negative one. If we truly must have -everything- for an opinion to mean anything, then all we can really say at this point is "A ruleset exists".
Tyran wrote:Even if the rules are garbage, the rules have been garbage for the last 2 or 3 editions so why now?
I think it's a fairly reasonable opinion to hold that the framework has been much the same since 3rd edition, and that a complete divorce from said framework instead of trying to rebuild it can be alienating.
Or in other words, something to the effect of "I liked 5th, why can't we more or less go back to 5th and redo the system tweaks that allow for new models to be less of a mess?"
Wulfey wrote: The phaseout is happening. Period. Rhino/Landraider/Landspeeder/Razorback are all 10+ years old. A lot of money to be had in making new kits for those.
They could use some scale creep IMO. They are way too small to have their supposed transport ability.
On a seperate note, anyone else not like the leg positioning of the jetpack numarines?
Its the only thing i dont like about them
i can deal with the mickymouse ear jet pack but the leg pose ticks me the most.
nothing a little surgery cant fix though.
The legs make sense when you realize they are hovering and not making an assisted jump.
With the extra jets on the legs I don't think these are anywhere like traditional assault Marines. Think infantry sized Aerial Jump Shoot Jump support
I can't wait to put a squad of Primaris Space Marines in my Rhino Primaris so I can Primaris while I Primaris.
I really hope they don't invalidate all of the existing SM vehicles. There are too many things based off the Rhino Chassis that it would suck to have them all be replaced by Bigger and Better. Especially given how they have talked up the Rhino and Land Raider a lot in the previews. I am looking forward to the Redemptor Dreadnought though. As long as it doesn't lead to me disliking all of my Angry Washing Machines. Hopefully it is more of a replacement to the Contemptor Pattern Dreadnought.
I really hope a squad of Intercessors can fit in a Razorback. If they are Bulky, that will ruin them a bit for me. Same with the eventual Gravis Armor Squads (please let them be called Excelsior Squads to keep with the Primaris/Excelsior name theme) fitting in a Land Raider/Stormraven.
Also, given that in one article, Raptor Squads are described as using the Fly rule in the Cities of Death article, I would like to think their Loyalist equivalent, the Assault Squad, will have Fly as well. It would definitely make them quite good at what they do.
Also, I think the Dark Imperium Inceptors are going to go to my Crimson Fists rather than my Blood Angels. I am hoping for a variant that has a chainsword alongside a pistol rather than two pistols.
Darkseid wrote: Not a fan of the Primaris. While they still look like Space Marines, they have a more modern sci-fi visuals. I prefere my marines more crude and gothic.
This x1000. They just don't feel like space marines to me. Where are the oversized pauldrons? The heroic GW crouch? They look like if Michael Bay made a summer blockbuster about space marines adapted for the big screen and these are the miniature line based on that movie. They've lost a lot of the distinctive qualities that set space marines apart from other "modern" sci-fi.
JohnnyHell wrote:Oh really? "the new rules being garbage" - the rules we haven't even seen yet? You're just trolling, dude.
We have at this point seen quite a large chunk of the rules. Without a full picture we can't say how game balance is as that has so many interwoven factors, but we're getting an increasingly clear image of what the new edition is like, and the clearer it gets the thinner this kind of comment wears.
Also by the same logic, you could say that a positive opinion of the rules is groundless in identical proportion to a negative one. If we truly must have -everything- for an opinion to mean anything, then all we can really say at this point is "A ruleset exists".
Tyran wrote:Even if the rules are garbage, the rules have been garbage for the last 2 or 3 editions so why now?
I think it's a fairly reasonable opinion to hold that the framework has been much the same since 3rd edition, and that a complete divorce from said framework instead of trying to rebuild it can be alienating.
Or in other words, something to the effect of "I liked 5th, why can't we more or less go back to 5th and redo the system tweaks that allow for new models to be less of a mess?"
In other words, adverse to change and more in maintaining the status quo.
They have been trying to balance it from 3rd to 7th and have failed time in and time out. They hit a block with their creative team that required a new edition or a new codex to fix. When would you say it might be time for a change? 10th edition? 12th? 15th? Beyond that they would of killed all hope so to me this is a great edition.
As someone else who plays maybe 6bother game systems, streamlined rules that are balances and innovative to degrees are FAR MORE desirable than broken rules with roken editions.
Darkseid wrote: Not a fan of the Primaris. While they still look like Space Marines, they have a more modern sci-fi visuals. I prefere my marines more crude and gothic.
This x1000. They just don't feel like space marines to me. Where are the oversized pauldrons? The heroic GW crouch? They look like if Michael Bay made a summer blockbuster about space marines adapted for the big screen and these are the miniature line based on that movie. They've lost a lot of the distinctive qualities that set space marines apart from other "modern" sci-fi.
So... bad proportions where the "Distintive touch" of space marines? To me is the gothic aesthetic. I can agree in things like the visor of the rifle, something that I don't know what use can have because they wear helmets that already did that and that makes their weapon look mire like a "practical modern sci-fi weapon" that something else.
But having better proportions isn't one of the reasons this Primaris Marines are less WH-Gothic. Is the same with the Contemptor Dreadnought. THATS less "gothic" that the normal boxy Dreadnought.
I think it's a fairly reasonable opinion to hold that the framework has been much the same since 3rd edition, and that a complete divorce from said framework instead of trying to rebuild it can be alienating.
Or in other words, something to the effect of "I liked 5th, why can't we more or less go back to 5th and redo the system tweaks that allow for new models to be less of a mess?"
Then find people that share that opinion and play 5th edition.
JohnnyHell wrote: Oh really? "the new rules being garbage" - the rules we haven't even seen yet? You're just trolling, dude.
Even if the rules are garbage, the rules have been garbage for the last 2 or 3 editions so why now?
Old rules were garbage because of the lack of balance and shallow but bloated core rules. The new rules are even more shallow, go figure. That's simple to the point of dumb, I mean, vehicles without facing? Jesus.
Maybe they will fix it, they supposedly listen now. From what I've heard so far though, it's a worst edition of 40k, ruined from its very start.
JohnnyHell wrote:Oh really? "the new rules being garbage" - the rules we haven't even seen yet? You're just trolling, dude.
We have at this point seen quite a large chunk of the rules. Without a full picture we can't say how game balance is as that has so many interwoven factors, but we're getting an increasingly clear image of what the new edition is like, and the clearer it gets the thinner this kind of comment wears.
Also by the same logic, you could say that a positive opinion of the rules is groundless in identical proportion to a negative one. If we truly must have -everything- for an opinion to mean anything, then all we can really say at this point is "A ruleset exists".
Tyran wrote:Even if the rules are garbage, the rules have been garbage for the last 2 or 3 editions so why now?
I think it's a fairly reasonable opinion to hold that the framework has been much the same since 3rd edition, and that a complete divorce from said framework instead of trying to rebuild it can be alienating.
Or in other words, something to the effect of "I liked 5th, why can't we more or less go back to 5th and redo the system tweaks that allow for new models to be less of a mess?"
Because 5th was built on the same terrible rickety foundation all the other versions were and the only reason it seemed good was because it went for bland first.
As for the rules, you could have all 5 books memorized and not have a goddam clue what the game plays like until it hits the table.
JohnnyHell wrote: Oh really? "the new rules being garbage" - the rules we haven't even seen yet? You're just trolling, dude.
Even if the rules are garbage, the rules have been garbage for the last 2 or 3 editions so why now?
Old rules were garbage because of the lack of balance and shallow but bloated core rules. The new rules are even more shallow, go figure. That's simple to the point of dumb, I mean, vehicles without facing? Jesus.
Maybe they will fix it, they supposedly listen now. From what I've heard so far though, it's a worst edition of 40k, ruined from its very start.
@JohnyHell
No, dude.
Facings were stupid. Straight up. Why does a mainline battletank have a fully armored front and paper mache sides? Like no on ever shoots them at a 46 degree angle?
You can have a deep rule set without getting bogged down in things people have convinced themselves is somehow realistic when it's not at all. And the 'tactics' of facing was basically 'can you argue for longer than you're opponent that you're in side arc?
I just noticed this, but the Hellblasters only have three unique molds (Two each of two molds and the Sergeant). That's a bit disappointing. The Intercessors don't seem to have that problem. Oh well. I wish I could get a better look at the Hellblaster Sergeant to know if he has a helmet on his hip or not.
I am a bit bummed they didn't leave the left shoulderpad on the primus marines seperate. They aren't even push fit like the blood bowl set so I figured they might be more customizable. I was really hoping i'd be able to avoid using wonky transfers but it looks like i'm gonna be stuck doing it. They are way too plain to be dark angels so it looks like i'm doing ultramarines or carcharadons or something. (won't do carcharadons either unless they rerelease the transfer sheet).
I'd love them to show us 360 spins of the models as a preview as well. Some of these models may look a lot better at a different angle and you can find new details from looking at a 360 image. It would be cool to see some of the concept art done for the primus marines. I'm not sure they look like the work of blanche or jes goodwin.
Galef wrote: This call for "truescale" Marines has never made sense to me. The Marines were fine. It's everything else that is too big. We should be calling for smaller human sized models
This is a miniatures game after all.
Yes, since 1987 Citadel has made 'everything else" too big. That's risable. In Rogue Trader Marines were just really awesome humans in powered armour. Eldar are called out at 2 metres. At some point before 2E Marines became transhuman and grew to Shaq-like size. At this point it is indeed the Space Marines out of scale...
...but you bring up a good point, 40K is not a scale miniatures game. RT points this out at the beginning saying and an inch on the ground is about 2 metres. And historically, miniatures and ground scale have never been the same thing. The miniatures have never been marketed as scale models, which means they can't be in or out of scale--even with each other.
But, from a fluff and majesty point of view, 7E- Space Marines aren't just that impressive looking. Then throw in the Age of Sigmar stuff and they look downright funny.
It's still a miniature game. People play skirmish games in 40mm and 54mm, and they are still miniatures. Might be too big for some people's liking, but they are still minis compared to action figures.
I like the new Marines. Not sure how I should direct my 8E purchases. Love the Primaries Marines and really am impressed by the Nurgle stuff, but not my bag. Skipping the box set, I'd still be looking at the core book plus at least 4 of the 5 Indexes, unless data sheets are available. My interest is in games with power levels, so I might hold off on the indecies. Need more info though...
JohnnyHell wrote: Oh really? "the new rules being garbage" - the rules we haven't even seen yet? You're just trolling, dude.
Even if the rules are garbage, the rules have been garbage for the last 2 or 3 editions so why now?
Old rules were garbage because of the lack of balance and shallow but bloated core rules. The new rules are even more shallow, go figure. That's simple to the point of dumb, I mean, vehicles without facing? Jesus.
Maybe they will fix it, they supposedly listen now. From what I've heard so far though, it's a worst edition of 40k, ruined from its very start.
@JohnyHell
No, dude.
Got to say, you do seem to be trolling, or at least suffering from old dog syndrome (Cuzco they can't learn new tricks)
Lack of vehicle facing is not a bad thing. It speeds play and lessens arguments. I have played, watched, and commented on dozens of games where there was an argument on Armor facings. Glad that is gone. Means more balance and streamlined rules.
As for the rules being shallow. How do you know? From a few teasers that don't give more than an inkling on how things actually work? Sorry, I can't agree. Having rules where those big gribblies get weaker as they take damage or having vehicles able to rush and charge into combat to unload their payloads of death. The rules allowing a Tactical Squad and Devastator squad to occupy the same Rhino then having that tactical squad be in the front, screening that important package of Devastators.
Sorry, rules seem balanced and enough of the shenanigans and loopholes exist far less than in other editions but Hey who cares. One less person is one less person. Go back and play your 2nd edition, or your 4th or whatever you prefer. Though I will point and laugh if you try it and like it.
I think it's a fairly reasonable opinion to hold that the framework has been much the same since 3rd edition, and that a complete divorce from said framework instead of trying to rebuild it can be alienating.
Or in other words, something to the effect of "I liked 5th, why can't we more or less go back to 5th and redo the system tweaks that allow for new models to be less of a mess?"
Then find people that share that opinion and play 5th edition.
I was more annoyed at the dismissal of opinion on grounds of not having a 100% complete picture than anything, in a thread specifically for the discussion of what we know so far no less.
As for the part you quoted: My own opinion is more that the fluff is more of what I disliked about the heresy era fluff only magnified, and that the rules I've seen are a mixed bag with some very positive things and some needlessly negative things that would have been better left closer to how they are. I'll quite happily play the ruleset with a few internal grumbles such as the loss of templates and such.
But: Age of Sigmar is not even the same genre of game that came before. Instead of trying to revamp the mass battle system back to the last time it was successful and popular and try to patch it up, they just gave up entirely and did a new system.
So I can absolutely sympathise with someone infuriated that they didn't try to fix the framework that's worked since 3rd and only recently got so bloated as to seem unsalvagable. I can sympathise with "Why can't they just dial things back and try again? What is this stubborn adherence to attempted innovation that throws out the baby with the bath water?"
Not quite the same when 8th is at least the same type of game as 3-7, but as I say I have perspective to sympathise.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I just noticed this, but the Hellblasters only have three unique molds (Two each of two molds and the Sergeant). That's a bit disappointing. The Intercessors don't seem to have that problem. Oh well. I wish I could get a better look at the Hellblaster Sergeant to know if he has a helmet on his hip or not.
The Dark Imperium models will be snap-fit maybe that's why. I guess it can always be done mixed up when you get a regular hellblaster squad. Or just get 2 starters squad and make 4 of each, which i just might.
Wulfey wrote: The phaseout is happening. Period. Rhino/Landraider/Landspeeder/Razorback are all 10+ years old. A lot of money to be had in making new kits for those.
I agree 100%. I'm sure we will see a Primaris Rhino soon enough. Honestly, I'm surprised it took this long to reboot the Space Marines line.
I'm not sure what to think about the Death Guard being a size in-between old marine and Nu-Marines. It looks like they'll be there scales of marines at this rate.
EDIT: it actually looks like the Death Guard are in-size with the old marines. Which is surprising, as I thought they were taking this opportunity to size up the new guys together.
Wulfey wrote: The phaseout is happening. Period. Rhino/Landraider/Landspeeder/Razorback are all 10+ years old. A lot of money to be had in making new kits for those.
I agree 100%. I'm sure we will see a Primaris Rhino soon enough. Honestly, I'm surprised it took this long to reboot the Space Marines line.
Wulfey wrote: The phaseout is happening. Period. Rhino/Landraider/Landspeeder/Razorback are all 10+ years old. A lot of money to be had in making new kits for those.
I agree 100%. I'm sure we will see a Primaris Rhino soon enough. Honestly, I'm surprised it took this long to reboot the Space Marines line.
Actually... the current Rhino is to scale for SoB. So once this phaseout happens they just repackage the current model, add a price hike, and call it a sororitas pattern. Then Sisters will officially have a plastic model that is just for them!
The Inceptors are the models catching my eye the most from this starter set, they remind me a lot of the Eldar Shadow Spectres Aspect Warriors with their large jet packs.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I just noticed this, but the Hellblasters only have three unique molds (Two each of two molds and the Sergeant). That's a bit disappointing. The Intercessors don't seem to have that problem. Oh well. I wish I could get a better look at the Hellblaster Sergeant to know if he has a helmet on his hip or not.
The Dark Imperium models will be snap-fit maybe that's why. I guess it can always be done mixed up when you get a regular hellblaster squad. Or just get 2 starters squad and make 4 of each, which i just might.
True, but it is odd that only the Hellblasters seem to be the only ones that are that way.
theharrower wrote:
Wulfey wrote: The phaseout is happening. Period. Rhino/Landraider/Landspeeder/Razorback are all 10+ years old. A lot of money to be had in making new kits for those.
I agree 100%. I'm sure we will see a Primaris Rhino soon enough. Honestly, I'm surprised it took this long to reboot the Space Marines line.
Wulfey wrote: The phaseout is happening. Period. Rhino/Landraider/Landspeeder/Razorback are all 10+ years old. A lot of money to be had in making new kits for those.
I agree 100%. I'm sure we will see a Primaris Rhino soon enough. Honestly, I'm surprised it took this long to reboot the Space Marines line.
Actually... the current Rhino is to scale for SoB. So once this phaseout happens they just repackage the current model, add a price hike, and call it a sororitas pattern. Then Sisters will officially have a plastic model that is just for them!
That's brilliant! You should probably delete your post before someone at GW sees it...
Wulfey wrote: The phaseout is happening. Period. Rhino/Landraider/Landspeeder/Razorback are all 10+ years old. A lot of money to be had in making new kits for those.
I agree 100%. I'm sure we will see a Primaris Rhino soon enough. Honestly, I'm surprised it took this long to reboot the Space Marines line.
There already is a Primaris Rhino though...
Oh yeah, forgot about that silly thing. Wasn't it a Rhino Primaris though? Totally different! Ha. I guess for now we can call it a Restartes Rhino. I'm sure they'll come up with some new crazy high gothic name for it.
krazynadechukr wrote: My local game shop just told me the prices. Starter is $160 , Rulebook is $60, and indexes are $25
I'll confirm that.
The starter is a very nice deal. I could see either half of the models selling for 100 dollrs. Both sets and a 60 dollar rulebook seems like a good price.
And a Heads Up: Stores that order a good chunk of boxes will have a demo set on the 3rd for you to drool over.
Stores ordering a bunch will also have the a set of the codices.
I plan on putting together and painting all my new Deathguard models on the 3rd, and making new lists for my orks
Thargrim wrote: I am a bit bummed they didn't leave the left shoulderpad on the primus marines seperate. They aren't even push fit like the blood bowl set so I figured they might be more customizable. I was really hoping i'd be able to avoid using wonky transfers but it looks like i'm gonna be stuck doing it. They are way too plain to be dark angels so it looks like i'm doing ultramarines or carcharadons or something. (won't do carcharadons either unless they rerelease the transfer sheet).
It's not all that hard to trim off the molded shoulder pads and using green stuff to fill underneath a Chapter specific shoulder pad. I had to do it with the new devastators. It is a little annoying but it doesn't take a lot of modeling skill to do it.
Thargrim wrote: I am a bit bummed they didn't leave the left shoulderpad on the primus marines seperate. They aren't even push fit like the blood bowl set so I figured they might be more customizable. I was really hoping i'd be able to avoid using wonky transfers but it looks like i'm gonna be stuck doing it. They are way too plain to be dark angels so it looks like i'm doing ultramarines or carcharadons or something. (won't do carcharadons either unless they rerelease the transfer sheet).
It's not all that hard to trim off the molded shoulder pads and using green stuff to fill underneath a Chapter specific shoulder pad. I had to do it with the new devastators. It is a little annoying but it doesn't take a lot of modeling skill to do it.
Indeed. While I won't be cutting away the shoulder pauldrons, I do still plan to do some alterations. Definitely going to take care of those Helmetless heads. Some green stuff and pouch bits should be able to fix the site where the helmets used to be on the body.
Seriously? Did people stop doing press molds or something? Old school metal devastators you either had to press mold the chapter symbol or carve carve carve.. on.. solid metal.. so yeah. Press molding used to be all the rage.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
GoonBandito wrote: To jump on the price discussion, here's the Australian prices (mate owns a LGS):
Rulebook - $98000
Index Books - $40000
Boxset - $220000
They haven't touched much on missions but looks like they are selling a new deck of Tactical Objective cards.
You can read the card on their site:
Big Game Hunter: "Score 1 victory point if at least one enemy units with a Wounds characteristic of 10 or more was destroyed during this turn. If at least one enemy unit with a Wounds characteristic of 20 or more was destroyed this turn, score D3 victory points instead."
krazynadechukr wrote: My local game shop just told me the prices. Starter is $160 , Rulebook is $60, and indexes are $25
I'll confirm that.
The starter is a very nice deal. I could see either half of the models selling for 100 dollrs. Both sets and a 60 dollar rulebook seems like a good price.
And a Heads Up: Stores that order a good chunk of boxes will have a demo set on the 3rd for you to drool over.
Stores ordering a bunch will also have the a set of the codices.
I plan on putting together and painting all my new Deathguard models on the 3rd, and making new lists for my orks
If that's true we can expect someone to leak the rules somewhere.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
GoonBandito wrote: To jump on the price discussion, here's the Australian prices (mate owns a LGS):
Rulebook - $98
Index Books - $40
Boxset - $220
That actually seems like a lot less than the usual markup doesn't it?
Darkseid wrote: Not a fan of the Primaris. While they still look like Space Marines, they have a more modern sci-fi visuals. I prefere my marines more crude and gothic.
This x1000. They just don't feel like space marines to me. Where are the oversized pauldrons? The heroic GW crouch? They look like if Michael Bay made a summer blockbuster about space marines adapted for the big screen and these are the miniature line based on that movie. They've lost a lot of the distinctive qualities that set space marines apart from other "modern" sci-fi.
JohnnyHell wrote:Oh really? "the new rules being garbage" - the rules we haven't even seen yet? You're just trolling, dude.
We have at this point seen quite a large chunk of the rules. Without a full picture we can't say how game balance is as that has so many interwoven factors, but we're getting an increasingly clear image of what the new edition is like, and the clearer it gets the thinner this kind of comment wears.
Also by the same logic, you could say that a positive opinion of the rules is groundless in identical proportion to a negative one. If we truly must have -everything- for an opinion to mean anything, then all we can really say at this point is "A ruleset exists".
Tyran wrote:Even if the rules are garbage, the rules have been garbage for the last 2 or 3 editions so why now?
I think it's a fairly reasonable opinion to hold that the framework has been much the same since 3rd edition, and that a complete divorce from said framework instead of trying to rebuild it can be alienating.
Or in other words, something to the effect of "I liked 5th, why can't we more or less go back to 5th and redo the system tweaks that allow for new models to be less of a mess?"
Because 5th was built on the same terrible rickety foundation all the other versions were and the only reason it seemed good was because it went for bland first.
As for the rules, you could have all 5 books memorized and not have a goddam clue what the game plays like until it hits the table.
JohnnyHell wrote: Oh really? "the new rules being garbage" - the rules we haven't even seen yet? You're just trolling, dude.
Even if the rules are garbage, the rules have been garbage for the last 2 or 3 editions so why now?
Old rules were garbage because of the lack of balance and shallow but bloated core rules. The new rules are even more shallow, go figure. That's simple to the point of dumb, I mean, vehicles without facing? Jesus.
Maybe they will fix it, they supposedly listen now. From what I've heard so far though, it's a worst edition of 40k, ruined from its very start.
@JohnyHell
No, dude.
Facings were stupid. Straight up. Why does a mainline battletank have a fully armored front and paper mache sides? Like no on ever shoots them at a 46 degree angle?
You can have a deep rule set without getting bogged down in things people have convinced themselves is somehow realistic when it's not at all. And the 'tactics' of facing was basically 'can you argue for longer than you're opponent that you're in side arc?
I'm no military specialist, but ain't a lot of modern tanks more armoured on the front cause they want to maintain some speed?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Accolade wrote: I'm not sure what to think about the Death Guard being a size in-between old marine and Nu-Marines. It looks like they'll be there scales of marines at this rate.
EDIT: it actually looks like the Death Guard are in-size with the old marines. Which is surprising, as I thought they were taking this opportunity to size up the new guys together.
yeah, really hate that the chaos marines are now smaller than numarines :(
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think the poxwalkers are alright, not as cool as the chaos cultits but alright. But they tried too much with them and they kind of have a forsaken vibe. Which is not a good thing
That box looks really tempting. Both death guard and marines were in the mix for me as a potential second army. (The other choices I'm considering are emperor's children, night lords, tyranids, admech and dark eldar). The best part is that by having only numarines in the box, it still leaves it open for you to use them as vanilla or special snowflake marines.
It will come down to the codex question for me. I am a bit worried that these new books will be invalidated quickly with a bunch of new codexes which will continue the codex creep cycle. If unit rules are free and the new books are strictly points and scenarios I might dabble in a bunch of new armies. If it's more of the same I will stick to two armies tops.
Rippy wrote: Blimey, $220 Dollerydoos, hopefully I can palm the Primaris marines for $100
Where in Aussie-land are you, mate? I'm in Melbourne. I'm after a second set and was going to split with a mate but he's not committing either way at this point so if you'd be interested in swapping I'm after some more Primaris Marines with no interest in the Death Guard....
IE we each buy a set and swap the opposing minis. I couldn't have worded it worse if I tried.
Definitely need to know if the weapons are compatible with the regular Marine kits now. I need one of them Pistol Assault Bolger things for a character STAT
I nicked it from B&C and they got it from Facebook it seems. That said, I'm betting it was a wuick Photoshop job with some color swapping.
And even the color swap didn't save the shields sadly. A double barrelled gun and an actual shield would have looked better.
Actually there's an idea. Slab Shields from the Bullgyn kit and a Stormbolter to replace the current kit....
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Definitely need to know if the weapons are compatible with the regular Marine kits now. I need one of them Pistol Assault Bolger things for a character STAT
Probably not without some love. At least not for the models we,re seeing right now as they're all snapfit guys.
I nicked it from B&C and they got it from Facebook it seems. That said, I'm betting it was a wuick Photoshop job with some color swapping.
And even the color swap didn't save the shields sadly. A double barrelled gun and an actual shield would have looked better.
Actually there's an idea. Slab Shields from the Bullgyn kit and a Stormbolter to replace the current kit....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Definitely need to know if the weapons are compatible with the regular Marine kits now. I need one of them Pistol Assault Bolger things for a character STAT
Probably not without some love. At least not for the models we,re seeing right now as they're all snapfit guys.
Damn. Any chance the arms aren't too big? I'm already committed to cutting things into pieces but any less work for my new representation of a Chapter Master using The Primarchs Wrath helps in my book.
I nicked it from B&C and they got it from Facebook it seems. That said, I'm betting it was a wuick Photoshop job with some color swapping.
And even the color swap didn't save the shields sadly. A double barrelled gun and an actual shield would have looked better.
Actually there's an idea. Slab Shields from the Bullgyn kit and a Stormbolter to replace the current kit....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Definitely need to know if the weapons are compatible with the regular Marine kits now. I need one of them Pistol Assault Bolger things for a character STAT
Probably not without some love. At least not for the models we,re seeing right now as they're all snapfit guys.
Damn. Any chance the arms aren't too big? I'm already committed to cutting things into pieces but any less work for my new representation of a Chapter Master using The Primarchs Wrath helps in my book.
I want to say it,s probably that the arms will be too big since the shoulderpads didn't change size but the arm is snugger inside,
That said, taking the gun off the hand and pinning it onto your conversion's fist should be doable, if requiring a bit of extra fenangling.
I nicked it from B&C and they got it from Facebook it seems. That said, I'm betting it was a wuick Photoshop job with some color swapping.
And even the color swap didn't save the shields sadly. A double barrelled gun and an actual shield would have looked better.
Actually there's an idea. Slab Shields from the Bullgyn kit and a Stormbolter to replace the current kit....
Now there's an idea indeed. Thanks for the feedback I'm going to try and make them look Carcharodonish
Glad I could help!
Despite how the new guys look in black I feel like there is something missing, maybe it's a lack of purity seals, or extra decor on the armour or something, they just feel....plain.
That said I often feel that way about most Marine Kits. Character models and the MkIII armour have been the high points of having enough interest to keep my hobby ADD in check. Well in check longer than usual.
With this years focus being on Marines and Chaos that pretty much means I can be free from worrying about starting a olastic Sisters army and free myself up for other projects.
Problem i,m having is actually committing to something. It's not even the lack of rules but rather a point where I realized I basically had everything I wanted in my Sisters in terms of what I wanted in an army and am struggling to find something new to start. That and if I have to build any more Rhino chassis I may burn climb a church tower and start preaching about how everyone is a heretic or something.
Sadly these new guys don't really help me solve that problem. And while I find the Plague Marines interesting, I am ultimately going to step back and just get the rulebook by itself instead.
If Thursday brings us news of Feral Orks getting rules I may have a new army project, but for the moment I am still trying to find that new project that'll kick off the new edition for me,
I nicked it from B&C and they got it from Facebook it seems. That said, I'm betting it was a wuick Photoshop job with some color swapping.
And even the color swap didn't save the shields sadly. A double barrelled gun and an actual shield would have looked better.
Actually there's an idea. Slab Shields from the Bullgyn kit and a Stormbolter to replace the current kit....
Now there's an idea indeed. Thanks for the feedback I'm going to try and make them look Carcharodonish
Glad I could help!
Despite how the new guys look in black I feel like there is something missing, maybe it's a lack of purity seals, or extra decor on the armour or something, they just feel....plain.
That said I often feel that way about most Marine Kits. Character models and the MkIII armour have been the high points of having enough interest to keep my hobby ADD in check. Well in check longer than usual.
With this years focus being on Marines and Chaos that pretty much means I can be free from worrying about starting a olastic Sisters army and free myself up for other projects.
Problem i,m having is actually committing to something. It's not even the lack of rules but rather a point where I realized I basically had everything I wanted in my Sisters in terms of what I wanted in an army and am struggling to find something new to start. That and if I have to build any more Rhino chassis I may burn climb a church tower and start preaching about how everyone is a heretic or something.
Sadly these new guys don't really help me solve that problem. And while I find the Plague Marines interesting, I am ultimately going to step back and just get the rulebook by itself instead.
If Thursday brings us news of Feral Orks getting rules I may have a new army project, but for the moment I am still trying to find that new project that'll kick off the new edition for me,
I think the more plain look suits them, they're much less experienced than current marines, so it would make sense if they didn't have as much galore to them.
I think Feral Orks could be a possibility, I'm really curious as to what they'll do with the whole 'Chapter Tactics' theme with the armies.
Despite how the new guys look in black I feel like there is something missing, maybe it's a lack of purity seals, or extra decor on the armour or something, they just feel....plain.
That's one of the things I really like about the Primaris Marines - they are refreshingly clear of bling!
I'm interested to know more about their version of artificer armor, and especially their version of Terminator armor - if they're getting it...
Looking at the full set of primaris marines against the new nurgle stuff.... it's like they are in two separate art styles. The Nurgle stuff is cartoonish almost to the point of being chibi... and why does every dang cultist have to have a giant horn growing out his head and a giant grin?
They definitely look good in black. A bit of battle damage and some scorch marks on the jet pack exhausts and they will look even better.
I think I going to wait on the starter though. I want to see how the next few months shake out. The rumoured dreadnought and transport may persuade me to start a primaris army, but I am holding out hope we will see something cool for the xenos soon.
Launch will just be the free rules and one of the index books for me.
Hopefully they will show off more than just the starter at Warhammerfest and I can make a bit more of an informed decision.
streetsamurai wrote: it really sucks that these numarines seems to have barely any options of weapons. they will be a real cookie cutter army
Those are literally the starter set options. Assuming that what we see is it.. well, I think that's really too early to determine. If there are options they can take in the book that aren't represented in the starter kit.. well.. I happen to know of a gajillion sites that sell that sort of thing..
Meade wrote: Looking at the full set of primaris marines against the new nurgle stuff.... it's like they are in two separate art styles. The Nurgle stuff is cartoonish almost to the point of being chibi... and why does every dang cultist have to have a giant horn growing out his head and a giant grin?
Because that's Nurgle for you.
His followers don't suffer their plagues and pustules, but revel in them. The Horns are possibly a sign of Nurgle's Rot, and their transformation into a Plague Bearer.
streetsamurai wrote: We saw the sheet of the inceptors, and they have no weapon options
I'm not seeing it in the OP.. I did see Rubric Marines (TSons?).. I dunno.. if we see the sheet for the guys that have plasma or whatever heavy weapons end up being a thing.. or maybe what would be considered a veteran squad possibly. Did the Inceptors get a sgt with possibility for a PSword or PFist at least?
EDIT: It's also possible that the datasheet that was seen was specific to the starter set which would only list the options presented in the kit most likely.
Oh, yeah we were told from the onset that those guys would be filler infantry. EDIT: redacted.. I re-read the stuff at the link.. they do in fact mention the filler bit and that they lack any real options.
I,m not saying it will be the case, I said that it seems like it will be the case (especially considering there is another unit of numarines armed with only plasma weapons). Hope I'm wrong, cause the vast amount of weapons choice is what makes 40k interesting
I feel the new Primaris Marines are going to have a very 30k feel to them in a sense.
Tacticals with only boltguns
Support Squad with Special weapons
New Assault dudes remind me a little bit of Moritats with jump packs
I'm almost willing to bet money that the Redemptor Dread will be sleeker than the Castaferrum, but maybe not so much as a Contemptor, and they'll probably release a Support Squad for heavy weapons
After all, they were designed right after the Horus Heresy, but I doubt that has to much of an effect. I'm probably wrong about all of this, but who knows
Voldrak wrote: Those new rules seem to indicate that if you move 12 inches forward, stop and then pivot slightly to get a different angle on your target for LOS purposes you would end up moving the back of your hull more than 12 inches and as such would be illegal.
This seems like it would slow down the current process of measure a spot 6 or 12 inches away from your tank, picking it up and putting it down however you want as long as it's not outside of that original mark. Now if you don't keep the exact same positioning, parts of your hull are bound to have moved more than 12 inches.
Am I understanding this correctly?
Measure from point that will move most by final position. Which seeing sideways toward enemy will be most efficient most of the time means you won't often be turning anyway at the end so no biggie.
tneva82 wrote: This is the problem I was talking about. If this is how it goes if unit gets wounded by 4 lascannons that's 4 lascannons you need to roll one by one.
d6. 4 wounds. 4 DR rolls.
d6. 2 wounds. 2 DR rolls
d6. 6 wounds. 6 DR rolls
d6. 1 wound. 1 DR roll
See? That would be very slow rolling! With speed and simplicy being buzzwords I doubt that is how it goes.
That looks completely wrong. Somehow you're rolling for damage twice per lascannon, no wonder it seems so slow to you. Try:
4 lascannons have hit and wounded. Roll saves (if any). Only then, for unsaved wounds, roll d6 damage per unsaved wound, one at a time. You don't cause d6 wounds per lascannon, then roll for damage for each wound. You've essentially squared the damage done per lascannon in your example.
The 4 DR rolls are for disgustingly resilient which according to death guard faction is _after_ damage roll. Ie opposite of saves. That's the wtf causer. If it was roll to hit, roll to wound, roll to save, roll for disgustingly resilient, roll for damage no problem. Instead it's roll to hit, roll to wound, roll to save, roll for damage, roll for disgusting resilient. WTF?
Albeit maybe it's DR is before damage roll and faction focus was incorrect. One can hope.
I wonder how marines will coexist in the next couple of releases. I hope we won't see a phase-out of the old scale models.
Me too, although I think the writing is on the wall though, sadly.
I'm hoping they think SM sell well enough to support both ranges. It would be painful to see so many years of 40k fluff and history vanish from a model perspective. The primus marines are cool but as others have said they are very sleek and not as gothic. No studs or rivets on them etc. And that kind of look is part of what has defined 40k for so long. Even if they don't get any more new kits from here on out, i'd hope they get officially supported rules for many more years.
+1. As it is if the old marine range DOES get discontinued that's the day I stop all purchaces. At least for marine armies. I have way too many marines to replace(I'm not millionaire!) and old and new marines look silly together so...
Of course does leave ebay but there sucks that you have to strip paint more often than not.
streetsamurai wrote: it really sucks that these numarines seems to have barely any options of weapons. they will be a real cookie cutter army
Those are literally the starter set options. Assuming that what we see is it.. well, I think that's really too early to determine. If there are options they can take in the book that aren't represented in the starter kit.. well.. I happen to know of a gajillion sites that sell that sort of thing..
Indeed, the previewed Primaris profiles are probably from the starter box army list that only covers the models and options in the box. If you look at the AoS starter set the Stormcast squads had no options either. But the full release kits have quite a few.
streetsamurai wrote: I'm no military specialist, but ain't a lot of modern tanks more armoured on the front cause they want to maintain some speed?
Yup.
It's either choice of uniformally weaker armour everywhere or have heavy armour where you expect most firepower to come from. If you try and make every armour as strong as the current front armour your vehicle is so frigging heavy that a) your speed goes down(assuming you can move at all!) b) to get even that you might need to up the engine c) you struggle at bad ground and could run into trouble with bridges(hey bridge that can't support tanks weight anymore! Have fun crossing it).
There's _reason_ why tanks have frontal armour as the thickest armour. It's not arbitory decision by games designers but comes from how _tanks are built_.
Unless you make armour that somehow weights same regardless of how thick it is(at which point why the armours are so thin?) the armour will be strongest at one side. That or it's lightly armoured everywhere and basically isn't even designed to survive more than light arm fire.
streetsamurai wrote: I really hope there will be something to prevent side moving vehicules. That would be atrocious
You know that's pretty much how it works now right? Like with no free pivot vehicles just move so that no part of the vehicle goes further than x inches. I mean technically I guess you might still be supposed to turn or w/e but I haven't seen any bother in a long time
streetsamurai wrote: I really hope there will be something to prevent side moving vehicules. That would be atrocious
You know that's pretty much how it works now right? Like with no free pivot vehicles just move so that no part of the vehicle goes further than x inches. I mean technically I guess you might still be supposed to turn or w/e but I haven't seen any bother in a long time
Yes and no, since facings make it so that in most case, you have a severe disavantage if you do so.
Must say that the removal of facings is probably the thing that bothers me the most with this new edition. Such a foolish decision.
There's other decisions that I don't like (such as removing the templates and making the psychic phase a lot more shallow), but at least for these, I can see the reason for doing so (speeding up the play). When it comes to the removal of facings, I can see no good reasons (no, causing less argument is not a good reason imo)
Vovin wrote: The Inceptors are a total Starcraft 2 Reaper ripoff: the masks, the flaps on the thrusters, the pistol loadout.
Funny thing is that I thought Reapers were assault marine/seraphim ripoffs back in the day.
Well, inspired
Wil Reese artwork from the mid-80s (he was involved in the Rogue Trader concept designs - predating Mk VI) already featured such elements aplenty see RT rulebook art
streetsamurai wrote: I really hope there will be something to prevent side moving vehicules. That would be atrocious
You know that's pretty much how it works now right? Like with no free pivot vehicles just move so that no part of the vehicle goes further than x inches. I mean technically I guess you might still be supposed to turn or w/e but I haven't seen any bother in a long time
Yes and no, since facings make it so that in most case, you have a severe disavantage if you do so.
Must say that the removal of facings is probably the thing that bothers me the most with this new edition. Such a foolish decision.
The arguments of thats the side no its the front no its the side alone is enough for me to welcome it.
I think it'll open up the game for vehicles and the game to be more tactical and dynamic also
streetsamurai wrote: I really hope there will be something to prevent side moving vehicules. That would be atrocious
You know that's pretty much how it works now right? Like with no free pivot vehicles just move so that no part of the vehicle goes further than x inches. I mean technically I guess you might still be supposed to turn or w/e but I haven't seen any bother in a long time
Yes and no, since facings make it so that in most case, you have a severe disavantage if you do so.
Must say that the removal of facings is probably the thing that bothers me the most with this new edition. Such a foolish decision.
The arguments of thats the side no its the front no its the side alone is enough for me to welcome it.
In a game that use TLOS, such argument are already very common, and are in most case easily solved with a simple laser.
And how can it makes the game more tactical? That seems to be a pretty contradictory statement.
streetsamurai wrote: I really hope there will be something to prevent side moving vehicules. That would be atrocious
You know that's pretty much how it works now right? Like with no free pivot vehicles just move so that no part of the vehicle goes further than x inches. I mean technically I guess you might still be supposed to turn or w/e but I haven't seen any bother in a long time
Yes and no, since facings make it so that in most case, you have a severe disavantage if you do so.
Must say that the removal of facings is probably the thing that bothers me the most with this new edition. Such a foolish decision.
Meh, agree to disagree. The only thing I don't like so far is the character transport thing. The armor facings was a neat concept but only tanks that don't move ever care.
Rhinos are 11 11 10. Whoo how important that facing is
Chimeras are...does it matter? When was the last time you saw one?
Eldar tanks basically get to pick what facing you're shooting at anyway, so long as they argue better.
Necrons have weird shapes and 14 14 14 so they're a pain and the ones that aren't are to fast to get around reasonably.
Tau...do Tau have tanks? I've honestly never seen one.
IG? You're hitting front armor unless you're SM or Eldar cause dem beeches don't move.
Chaos, far as I can tell never got a vehicle other than the 12 12 10 omg it's in my face, oh wait it's immobilized maulerfiend.
SM vehicles are either irrelevant long range shooting platforms, irrelevant land raiders, or the afore mentioned rhinos which are only relevant because they cost zero points, and drop pods.
Tl: DR, facings wouldn't of been that big of a deal even if they did have any meaningful effect on the game.
Popped into my local GW today. GW Head Office army painting team has painted up hundreds of models to be sent in small batches to each store so that each store had painted examples of the miniatures on hand today.
My store had a HQ painted example of a Plague Marine and Primaris Marine. In addition, the store was sent sprued examples from the box. In this case the Nurgle Lord and the Primaris Captain and a single Plague Zombie all of which the GW manager was building/painting. It was all snap fit with some slight modularity so you can re-position certain arms and heads etc. I was mighty impressed with what he had to show and looking forward to seeing more of the box contents.
He must have also had the books, although they weren't available to look over. He said the fluff behind the new Assault Marines and those skids is they launch from Orbit (ie not from a transport/ground like a current Assault Marine - more like one man fighter craft) and used them like a giant shock absorber/landing skid.
streetsamurai wrote: I really hope there will be something to prevent side moving vehicules. That would be atrocious
You know that's pretty much how it works now right? Like with no free pivot vehicles just move so that no part of the vehicle goes further than x inches. I mean technically I guess you might still be supposed to turn or w/e but I haven't seen any bother in a long time
Yes and no, since facings make it so that in most case, you have a severe disavantage if you do so.
Must say that the removal of facings is probably the thing that bothers me the most with this new edition. Such a foolish decision.
Meh, agree to disagree. The only thing I don't like so far is the character transport thing. The armor facings was a neat concept but only tanks that don't move ever care.
Rhinos are 11 11 10. Whoo how important that facing is Chimeras are...does it matter? When was the last time you saw one? Eldar tanks basically get to pick what facing you're shooting at anyway, so long as they argue better. Necrons have weird shapes and 14 14 14 so they're a pain and the ones that aren't are to fast to get around reasonably. Tau...do Tau have tanks? I've honestly never seen one. IG? You're hitting front armor unless you're SM or Eldar cause dem beeches don't move. Chaos, far as I can tell never got a vehicle other than the 12 12 10 omg it's in my face, oh wait it's immobilized maulerfiend. SM vehicles are either irrelevant long range shooting platforms, irrelevant land raiders, or the afore mentioned rhinos which are only relevant because they cost zero points, and drop pods.
Tl: DR, facings wouldn't of been that big of a deal even if they did have any meaningful effect on the game.
so because GW wasn't able to price most of the vehicules correctly, it made sense to ditch the entire mechanism, and make the game more shallow ????
and the facings on the rhino were rather important, since you could kill one with the most common weapon in the game if you shot one from the back
The Index books contain the warscrolls and points for the armies.
They have said they will alter points yearly to balance them.
These are temporary combinations of races/factions and eventually each race/faction will get its own codex.
So when they adjust points each year, every index/codex is invalid?
A new codex/index every year for each race/faction you play as the points in the previous one are invalidated?
This seems a far bigger cash grab than any previous edition.
If they were gamer friendly, the warscrolls would be in the books (and in new boxes of models) and the points would be free releases that would only be a few pages long.
I know GW are out for profit, but this sounds like the most gamer unfriendly sales model for any miniature game I've ever seenn
IIRC point cost won't be in the codex (only power level), and you'll probably have to buy the general handbook each year to have them. Yeah, it's a gakky move if it's the case
There will be an annual 40k Generals Handbook for points and rules updates - one book for everything. The 8th Ed Index and Codex books will be kept updated by this after their release - and no need to replace the latter anymore during 8th
IIRC point cost won't be in the codex (only power level), and you'll probably have to buy the general handbook each year to have them. Yeah, it's a gakky move if it's the case
I dont think this is a bad concept as it allows for regular changes where neccessary. GW also offers an interactive FAQ website to get the community more involved and react to problems in the game. That one and the FAQ will be free
Not sure why some believe 40k will be an inexpensive hobby in 8th...
NivlacSupreme wrote: Hmm... I wonder if the Dangles will let any of the new marines into the inner circle.
Seeing as it is a shot that can be administered to upgrade existing marines - not a problem! Betting the Deathwing will be hesitant to get the shot however, until we get Primaris Terminator equivalents. Would be a shame to be forced to hang all those ancient TDAs into the closet.
A neat way to get the new Marines quickly into the hands of all players anyway...
Gimgamgoo wrote: Am I correct in my thinking of the following...
The Index books contain the warscrolls and points for the armies.
They have said they will alter points yearly to balance them.
These are temporary combinations of races/factions and eventually each race/faction will get its own codex.
So when they adjust points each year, every index/codex is invalid?
A new codex/index every year for each race/faction you play as the points in the previous one are invalidated?
This seems a far bigger cash grab than any previous edition.
If they were gamer friendly, the warscrolls would be in the books (and in new boxes of models) and the points would be free releases that would only be a few pages long.
I know GW are out for profit, but this sounds like the most gamer unfriendly sales model for any miniature game I've ever seenn
Nope.
They're keeping the points to their own section. And if the AoS Battletome are owt to go by, probably up the back pages.
As I've said before, this is precisely so points can be tweaked and changed without invalidating entire books.
Gimgamgoo wrote: Am I correct in my thinking of the following...
The Index books contain the warscrolls and points for the armies.
They have said they will alter points yearly to balance them.
These are temporary combinations of races/factions and eventually each race/faction will get its own codex.
So when they adjust points each year, every index/codex is invalid?
A new codex/index every year for each race/faction you play as the points in the previous one are invalidated?
This seems a far bigger cash grab than any previous edition.
If they were gamer friendly, the warscrolls would be in the books (and in new boxes of models) and the points would be free releases that would only be a few pages long.
I know GW are out for profit, but this sounds like the most gamer unfriendly sales model for any miniature game I've ever seenn
Nope.
They're keeping the points to their own section. And if the AoS Battletome are owt to go by, probably up the back pages.
As I've said before, this is precisely so points can be tweaked and changed without invalidating entire books.
But the books technically will be invalidated as the points are all wrong. It doesn't matter if this is printed at the back or interspaced on each page.
However, if the points adjustments are all in one book each year, that's not too bad. Far better than buying a new codex for every army every year.
Still, a free, points pdf each year would be better as you could put the extra pages needed with each codex. Then all your hobby money could go on plastic toy soldiers - which I'm sure have a way higher profit margin for GW than books.
IIRC point cost won't be in the codex (only power level), and you'll probably have to buy the general handbook each year to have them. Yeah, it's a gakky move if it's the case
I dont think this is a bad concept as it allows for regular changes where neccessary. GW also offers an interactive FAQ website to get the community more involved and react to problems in the game. That one and the FAQ will be free
Not sure why some believe 40k will be an inexpensive hobby in 8th...
I don't know, paying for updated point cost every year seems tantamount as paying for the same thing numerous times cause they weren't able to do the job correctly the first time. Since I assume that theses books will be rather inexpensive, it is not a big deal, but it shows once again that while NuGW has really improved on numerous fronts (especially when it comes to communications with the community), it has also taken nickel and diming to a new height (the Twitch channel being a pet peeve of mine)
I wouldn't be so worried about GW performing a cash grab on codex and rulebooks. This is the same company that made AoS. In AoS everything is free except the models and the advanced rules.
- Basic rules are free
- Model's rules are free
- Matched play points are free (on the app)
You only pay for formations and allegiance books, but if i want to buy a starter set and some more minis and play, i only spend for the minis.
streetsamurai wrote: I really hope there will be something to prevent side moving vehicules. That would be atrocious
You know that's pretty much how it works now right? Like with no free pivot vehicles just move so that no part of the vehicle goes further than x inches. I mean technically I guess you might still be supposed to turn or w/e but I haven't seen any bother in a long time
Yes and no, since facings make it so that in most case, you have a severe disavantage if you do so.
Must say that the removal of facings is probably the thing that bothers me the most with this new edition. Such a foolish decision.
Meh, agree to disagree. The only thing I don't like so far is the character transport thing. The armor facings was a neat concept but only tanks that don't move ever care.
Rhinos are 11 11 10. Whoo how important that facing is
Chimeras are...does it matter? When was the last time you saw one?
Eldar tanks basically get to pick what facing you're shooting at anyway, so long as they argue better.
Necrons have weird shapes and 14 14 14 so they're a pain and the ones that aren't are to fast to get around reasonably.
Tau...do Tau have tanks? I've honestly never seen one.
IG? You're hitting front armor unless you're SM or Eldar cause dem beeches don't move.
Chaos, far as I can tell never got a vehicle other than the 12 12 10 omg it's in my face, oh wait it's immobilized maulerfiend.
SM vehicles are either irrelevant long range shooting platforms, irrelevant land raiders, or the afore mentioned rhinos which are only relevant because they cost zero points, and drop pods.
Tl: DR, facings wouldn't of been that big of a deal even if they did have any meaningful effect on the game.
so because GW wasn't able to price most of the vehicules correctly, it made sense to ditch the entire mechanism, and make the game more shallow ????
and the facings on the rhino were rather important, since you could kill one with the most common weapon in the game if you shot one from the back
First of all, you need 18 hits in the rear to kill a rhino out in the open with a bolter, secondly the army that uses bolters drops in from the sky, third if your opponent doesn't drop out from the sky and is in a position where it even has a chance to hit rear armor the rhino's done it's job, fourth any weapon people actually use to kill a rhino is going to kill 11 and 10 pretty much the same.
The AV system wasn't a patticularly interesting nuance, even accounting for how terrible vehicles were. You either had short range vehicles with very similar F S facings because having high front armor is basically useless inside 24 inches, it's too easy to get side arc, so you make side arc high, well then it becomes simplest to melee it to death, that doesn't work you just muscle through the front armor because hitting rear is stupidly impractical unless you're eldar or SM on a vehicle more than 10" away. Then you have the high front armor shooting platforms which are just going to form a wall as far back as they can go and shoot you to death and turbo boost for objectives turn 5.
Basically all those cool AV tricks you imagine when you think about how it could work don't actually work in practice or straight up don't matter.
It didn't add much to the game and I doubt it will be missed for long.
streetsamurai wrote: I don't know, paying for updated point cost every year seems tantamount as paying for the same thing numerous times cause they weren't able to do the job correctly the first time.
Well alternatives are:
a) 100% free. Every rule is free and online. Would they be then able to sell enough books to make printing worthwhile at all as some want book anyway? And who expects GW to have 100% free anyway...
b) no updates and therefore points will be flawed forever.
Spoletta wrote: I wouldn't be so worried about GW performing a cash grab on codex and rulebooks. This is the same company that made AoS. In AoS everything is free except the models and the advanced rules.
- Basic rules are free
- Model's rules are free
- Matched play points are free (on the app)
You only pay for formations and allegiance books, but if i want to buy a starter set and some more minis and play, i only spend for the minis.
That's a good point. I guess they will put the point cost for free in the app
streetsamurai wrote: I really hope there will be something to prevent side moving vehicules. That would be atrocious
You know that's pretty much how it works now right? Like with no free pivot vehicles just move so that no part of the vehicle goes further than x inches. I mean technically I guess you might still be supposed to turn or w/e but I haven't seen any bother in a long time
Yes and no, since facings make it so that in most case, you have a severe disavantage if you do so.
Must say that the removal of facings is probably the thing that bothers me the most with this new edition. Such a foolish decision.
Meh, agree to disagree. The only thing I don't like so far is the character transport thing. The armor facings was a neat concept but only tanks that don't move ever care.
Rhinos are 11 11 10. Whoo how important that facing is Chimeras are...does it matter? When was the last time you saw one? Eldar tanks basically get to pick what facing you're shooting at anyway, so long as they argue better. Necrons have weird shapes and 14 14 14 so they're a pain and the ones that aren't are to fast to get around reasonably. Tau...do Tau have tanks? I've honestly never seen one. IG? You're hitting front armor unless you're SM or Eldar cause dem beeches don't move. Chaos, far as I can tell never got a vehicle other than the 12 12 10 omg it's in my face, oh wait it's immobilized maulerfiend. SM vehicles are either irrelevant long range shooting platforms, irrelevant land raiders, or the afore mentioned rhinos which are only relevant because they cost zero points, and drop pods.
Tl: DR, facings wouldn't of been that big of a deal even if they did have any meaningful effect on the game.
so because GW wasn't able to price most of the vehicules correctly, it made sense to ditch the entire mechanism, and make the game more shallow ????
and the facings on the rhino were rather important, since you could kill one with the most common weapon in the game if you shot one from the back
First of all, you need 18 hits in the rear to kill a rhino out in the open with a bolter, secondly the army that uses bolters drops in from the sky, third if your opponent doesn't drop out from the sky and is in a position where it even has a chance to hit rear armor the rhino's done it's job, fourth any weapon people actually use to kill a rhino is going to kill 11 and 10 pretty much the same.
The AV system wasn't a patticularly interesting nuance, even accounting for how terrible vehicles were. You either had short range vehicles with very similar F S facings because having high front armor is basically useless inside 24 inches, it's too easy to get side arc, so you make side arc high, well then it becomes simplest to melee it to death, that doesn't work you just muscle through the front armor because hitting rear is stupidly impractical unless you're eldar or SM on a vehicle more than 10" away. Then you have the high front armor shooting platforms which are just going to form a wall as far back as they can go and shoot you to death and turbo boost for objectives turn 5.
Basically all those cool AV tricks you imagine when you think about how it could work don't actually work in practice or straight up don't matter.
It didn't add much to the game and I doubt it will be missed for long.
18 bolter shots is not a lot. Pretty much evey tactical squad in half range was able to drop this in a turn.
I guess you'll see what facings brought to the game when 8th edition drops and pretty much every vehicule will now be moving sideways.
But at least you are now admiting that they were adding something to the game, which is why I think that removing them was a foolish decision, cause they aren't any upsides
Spoletta wrote: I wouldn't be so worried about GW performing a cash grab on codex and rulebooks. This is the same company that made AoS. In AoS everything is free except the models and the advanced rules.
- Basic rules are free
- Model's rules are free
- Matched play points are free (on the app)
You only pay for formations and allegiance books, but if i want to buy a starter set and some more minis and play, i only spend for the minis.
No, Matched Play points aren't free. Not even in the app.
You either pay for the General's Handbook or through the premium app subscription (1,50 €/month).
BUT: there is stuff like scrollbuilder.com or Battlescribe, so you could say the opoints are free through 3rd party options.
In a game that use TLOS, such argument are already very common, and are in most case easily solved with a simple laser.
And how can it makes the game more tactical? That seems to be a pretty contradictory statement.
Well you are loosing the tactic of manoeuvring your units to attack vulnerable sides and the vehicle owner is loosing the tactic of defending those sides.
In doing so however this opens up the vehicle player to use the tank differently, more varied uses. This imo opens up a swathe of new tactics where a vehicle because it doesn't have to micro manage its positioning can engage the enemy differently and thus creating tactical options and situations.
For the shooter at the vehicle they can now hurt it with all of their guns regardless of facing it opens up some new tactics e.g. do you fire your devi lascannon at the tank and all the bolters and hope to kill it or shoot the bolters at that troops unit on the obj.
Spoletta wrote: I wouldn't be so worried about GW performing a cash grab on codex and rulebooks. This is the same company that made AoS. In AoS everything is free except the models and the advanced rules.
- Basic rules are free
- Model's rules are free
- Matched play points are free (on the app)
You only pay for formations and allegiance books, but if i want to buy a starter set and some more minis and play, i only spend for the minis.
No, Matched Play points aren't free. Not even in the app.
You either pay for the General's Handbook or through the premium app subscription (1,50 €/month).
BUT: there is stuff like scrollbuilder.com or Battlescribe, so you could say the opoints are free through 3rd party options.
Battlescribe has been made official by GW. Points are now 100% free.
In a game that use TLOS, such argument are already very common, and are in most case easily solved with a simple laser.
And how can it makes the game more tactical? That seems to be a pretty contradictory statement.
Well you are loosing the tactic of manoeuvring your units to attack vulnerable sides and the vehicle owner is loosing the tactic of defending those sides.
In doing so however this opens up the vehicle player to use the tank differently, more varied uses. This imo opens up a swathe of new tactics where a vehicle because it doesn't have to micro manage its positioning can engage the enemy differently and thus creating tactical options and situations.
For the shooter at the vehicle they can now hurt it with all of their guns regardless of facing it opens up some new tactics e.g. do you fire your devi lascannon at the tank and all the bolters and hope to kill it or shoot the bolters at that troops unit on the obj.
these options were always present, but they were associated with a drawback which forced you to make a risk-benefit analysis, hence why it was more tactical
Spoletta wrote: I wouldn't be so worried about GW performing a cash grab on codex and rulebooks. This is the same company that made AoS. In AoS everything is free except the models and the advanced rules.
- Basic rules are free
- Model's rules are free
- Matched play points are free (on the app)
You only pay for formations and allegiance books, but if i want to buy a starter set and some more minis and play, i only spend for the minis.
No this doesnt work for GW. 40k and 30k and all their expensive products are what keeps GW alive. This includes books which create a high margin. Positive reports of AoS doing better after the Generals Handbook release are fine but they had to keep AoS very easy to enter after WFB starving financially. Free rules were imo more a desperate measure than anything else. I would love to get free 40k datasheets on the webshop and free Codex updates. But taking everything into consideration I am okay with paying for books. I also both dislike using electronic devices during gaming (books are much easier to browse, among other reasons) and am willing to pay for a professionally printed product. My 40k books had 25 years of shelf life so far, are still available for a good read whenever I want and the collection still grows with cheap second hand books from ebay. I dont want 40k to evolve into a low-budget digital pdf/app-only product no one cares about in a few years. This game is so much more. Look at all the cheap art we got in some of the books in 7th. Going that route would be a big mistake for 40k. The books have to be financially successful, so you cannot cut into their sales by making the important parts free. Otherwise there wont be any in a few years.
In a game that use TLOS, such argument are already very common, and are in most case easily solved with a simple laser.
And how can it makes the game more tactical? That seems to be a pretty contradictory statement.
Well you are loosing the tactic of manoeuvring your units to attack vulnerable sides and the vehicle owner is loosing the tactic of defending those sides.
In doing so however this opens up the vehicle player to use the tank differently, more varied uses. This imo opens up a swathe of new tactics where a vehicle because it doesn't have to micro manage its positioning can engage the enemy differently and thus creating tactical options and situations.
For the shooter at the vehicle they can now hurt it with all of their guns regardless of facing it opens up some new tactics e.g. do you fire your devi lascannon at the tank and all the bolters and hope to kill it or shoot the bolters at that troops unit on the obj.
these options were always present, but they were associated with a drawback which forced you to make a risk-benefit analysis, hence why it was more tactical
they were but what you call a risk in 7th i tended to see a death sentence just my opinion ofc
They also create a barrier of entry. GW is a miniatures company, not a printing house. Anything that obstructs the sale of kits is a problem and the way they've been handling printed material towards the tail end of Kirby's reign was putting people off buying not just paper but plastic as well.
GW has plenty of space to provide high quality products in line with their collector's editions and Horus Heresy supplements while at the same time offering a frictionless introduction to the game systems. People will gladly pay for fluff and ideas, no need to force them to pay through the nose for the points, when they could be spending that money on models instead.
Alpharius wrote: ''I'm interested to know more about their version of artificer armor, and especially their version of Terminator armor - if they're getting it...''
I think that Gravis (from captain) is either artificier or termie one.
tneva82 wrote: This is the problem I was talking about. If this is how it goes if unit gets wounded by 4 lascannons that's 4 lascannons you need to roll one by one.
d6. 4 wounds. 4 DR rolls.
d6. 2 wounds. 2 DR rolls
d6. 6 wounds. 6 DR rolls
d6. 1 wound. 1 DR roll
See? That would be very slow rolling! With speed and simplicy being buzzwords I doubt that is how it goes.
That looks completely wrong. Somehow you're rolling for damage twice per lascannon, no wonder it seems so slow to you. Try:
4 lascannons have hit and wounded. Roll saves (if any). Only then, for unsaved wounds, roll d6 damage per unsaved wound, one at a time. You don't cause d6 wounds per lascannon, then roll for damage for each wound. You've essentially squared the damage done per lascannon in your example.
The 4 DR rolls are for disgustingly resilient which according to death guard faction is _after_ damage roll. Ie opposite of saves. That's the wtf causer. If it was roll to hit, roll to wound, roll to save, roll for disgustingly resilient, roll for damage no problem. Instead it's roll to hit, roll to wound, roll to save, roll for damage, roll for disgusting resilient. WTF?
Albeit maybe it's DR is before damage roll and faction focus was incorrect. One can hope.
They specifically mentioned that it works against multi-damage, which is more than a minor error. Unfortunately, it seems that you're right and that Feel No Pain mechanics will necessitate quite a bit of extra rolling now.
Frozen Ocean wrote: They specifically mentioned that it works against multi-damage, which is more than a minor error. Unfortunately, it seems that you're right and that Feel No Pain mechanics will necessitate quite a bit of extra rolling now.
Well GW is known to make odd writing errors/thinking errors. Maybe they meant it still works against multidamage as it can block entire multidamage at once.
But I'm just hoping for something to prevent that one at a time rolling! Odd they would go for that when they try to quicken things up. And it's not just plasma cannons but for example plasma guns vs FNP termies will likely involve this etc. Imagine leman russ exterminator with 5 plasma cannons so 5d3 or 5d6 hits...Say hello to lots of dice rolling!
Unless the excess to wounds gets discarded(ie you roll 6 damage vs W2 model, you only roll 2 FNP) but I think that actually helps weapon to kill more. And how to write that quickly since that has to be written on every entry that uses such a FNP styled save...
Can someone explain to me the difference between basic and advanced rules? Kinda seems a bit like the people who paid top price for the fancy book will have an advantage. Secondly, having multiple armies in the same codex (apart from marine and choas which should have stayed in the same codexs from the start) kinda also seems like a cash grab. Before you had the lore and cool stuff about the race in your book, now you have to buy your codex and a lore book to get the same thing.
The basic rules are the rules. Full stop. You can play the game with these rules if you have the unit stats.
The big book gives ways to modify the base game for environments (Cityfight), more missions, etc. So nothing that stops you playing the game, just Mods that give you more variety.
Basically all those cool AV tricks you imagine when you think about how it could work don't actually work in practice or straight up don't matter.
Maybe in 7th, but go back a few editions and it mattered alot. Guess range weapons and templates were awesome if you were good at guessing ranges, vehicles moved and became exposed trying to take objectives or maneuver for better positioning, surrounding vehicles to prevent debarkation etc. All exciting and valid nuances of the game.
Just because recent editions have devolved vehicles into uselessness doesnt mean that they cant be brought back to life through appropriate rules and points values. Removing directional armour is dumb, sideways vehicles as mobile blocking terrain has always been a tactic with significant risks, will it now become a joke of a tactic with no negative.
lolman1c wrote: Can someone explain to me the difference between basic and advanced rules? Kinda seems a bit like the people who paid top price for the fancy book will have an advantage. Secondly, having multiple armies in the same codex (apart from marine and choas which should have stayed in the same codexs from the start) kinda also seems like a cash grab. Before you had the lore and cool stuff about the race in your book, now you have to buy your codex and a lore book to get the same thing.
I have understood that advanced rules are stuff like cityfight, death from skies, special scenarios and such. So not really necessary for all gaming, but very nice content to have.
lolman1c wrote: Can someone explain to me the difference between basic and advanced rules? Kinda seems a bit like the people who paid top price for the fancy book will have an advantage. Secondly, having multiple armies in the same codex (apart from marine and choas which should have stayed in the same codexs from the start) kinda also seems like a cash grab. Before you had the lore and cool stuff about the race in your book, now you have to buy your codex and a lore book to get the same thing.
I have understood that advanced rules are stuff like cityfight, death from skies, special scenarios and such. So not really necessary for all gaming, but very nice content to have.
Think of the old Expansions and the new Advanced Rules as DLC. They aren't necessary to play the base game, but they add new maps, game modes and perks to choose from. The only difference between Expansions and Advanced Rules is that advanced rules comes with all the new DLC on Day 1. Think of it like a Game of the Year Edition or Season Pass, where each expansion previously would be your standard 4 DLC over 3 years at 1/2 the price of the core game.
To put it simply: Core Rules are the basic game rules. Bases, statistics, Movement, shooting, close combat, weapons, unit types and some missions. Advanced Rules are narrative scenarios and additional mission types, Cities of Death (urban warfare expansion), Death from the Skies (flyer expansion), Planetstrike/Stronghold Assault (Attacker vs Defender), Apocalypse (extra-large games with extra large models) and possibly even Battle Missions (unique missions themed around a particular aspect of a faction, though may be rolled into Narrative gameplay). Its possible advanced mission rules such as Night Fighting, Vacuum, Death World, or any such "Environmental" rules would come under this.
Re: lore and rules, I am likewise disappointed as I liked the fluff bits in the Codexes, they were entire encyclopedias about the faction from their organisation and history to rules. But 8th Ed seems to be the "pandering to the competitive crowd" edition, and I've seen "Drop the useless fluff from Codexes and just give us rules" more and more frequently.
That last point isn't valid. The Indexes are to bring every Army into the new edition at once given they've dramatically changed statlines. They've stated full faction Codexes will return later.
JohnnyHell wrote: That last point isn't valid. The Indexes are to bring every Army into the new edition at once given they've dramatically changed statlines. They've stated full faction Codexes will return later.
Gimgamgoo wrote: Am I correct in my thinking of the following...
The Index books contain the warscrolls and points for the armies.
They have said they will alter points yearly to balance them.
These are temporary combinations of races/factions and eventually each race/faction will get its own codex.
So when they adjust points each year, every index/codex is invalid?
A new codex/index every year for each race/faction you play as the points in the previous one are invalidated?
This seems a far bigger cash grab than any previous edition.
If they were gamer friendly, the warscrolls would be in the books (and in new boxes of models) and the points would be free releases that would only be a few pages long.
I know GW are out for profit, but this sounds like the most gamer unfriendly sales model for any miniature game I've ever seenn
Just wait until they start to release supplementary books with new formations.
The release of such books has been very successful in the current incarnation of the game. What should they stop it.
If you buy the five index books, the Warhammer book, and the starter set, you are almost at 300 Euro.
wuestenfux wrote: Just wait until they start to release supplementary books with new formations.
The release of such books has been very successful in the current incarnation of the game. What should they stop it.
If you buy the five index books, the Warhammer book, and the starter set, you are almost at 300 Euro.
Why would you buy the book when it's included in the starter anyway? In either case, it's still much cheaper than trying to own even half the codices out now, let alone all of them.
Gimgamgoo wrote: Am I correct in my thinking of the following...
The Index books contain the warscrolls and points for the armies.
They have said they will alter points yearly to balance them.
These are temporary combinations of races/factions and eventually each race/faction will get its own codex.
So when they adjust points each year, every index/codex is invalid?
A new codex/index every year for each race/faction you play as the points in the previous one are invalidated?
This seems a far bigger cash grab than any previous edition.
If they were gamer friendly, the warscrolls would be in the books (and in new boxes of models) and the points would be free releases that would only be a few pages long.
I know GW are out for profit, but this sounds like the most gamer unfriendly sales model for any miniature game I've ever seenn
No the indexes are just get you by books until codexes come out. Codexes will supercede the index. Each codex will contain points.
Each year going forward the will be a generals handbook type thing. This will contain updated points for every unit in the game each year. These points will supercede the codexes.
So at the most for any given army you will buy an index now, then a codex when it comes out then each annual version of the generals handbook.
In AoS we also have scrollbuilder a free online resource which contains points and is soon to be officially supported by GW. If 40k gets this you will just need the index then the codex.
40k is getting some kind of app and there may be free datasheets online.
If this is the case you will just need the codex.
wuestenfux wrote: Just wait until they start to release supplementary books with new formations.
The release of such books has been very successful in the current incarnation of the game. What should they stop it.
If you buy the five index books, the Warhammer book, and the starter set, you are almost at 300 Euro.
Why would you buy the book when it's included in the starter anyway? In either case, it's still much cheaper than trying to own even half the codices out now, let alone all of them.
You might hate the models in the starter set and have no need for anything other than the BRB. In which case I guess you could just sell the sprues and keep the book as done in the past but resell value is not going to cover cost of the box.
wuestenfux wrote: Just wait until they start to release supplementary books with new formations.
The release of such books has been very successful in the current incarnation of the game. What should they stop it.
If you buy the five index books, the Warhammer book, and the starter set, you are almost at 300 Euro.
Why would you buy the book when it's included in the starter anyway? In either case, it's still much cheaper than trying to own even half the codices out now, let alone all of them.
You might hate the models in the starter set and have no need for anything other than the BRB. In which case I guess you could just sell the sprues and keep the book as done in the past but resell value is not going to cover cost of the box.
If you sold *just* the primaris half away at $10 for each unit you would make $80, and thats gotta be ez.
wuestenfux wrote: Just wait until they start to release supplementary books with new formations.
The release of such books has been very successful in the current incarnation of the game. What should they stop it.
If you buy the five index books, the Warhammer book, and the starter set, you are almost at 300 Euro.
Why would you buy the book when it's included in the starter anyway? In either case, it's still much cheaper than trying to own even half the codices out now, let alone all of them.
You might hate the models in the starter set and have no need for anything other than the BRB. In which case I guess you could just sell the sprues and keep the book as done in the past but resell value is not going to cover cost of the box.
I think you're misinterpreting me. The comment I was quoting was the cost of the starter+the book+all 5 indices. I was just wondering why anyone would buy the book as well as the boxed set when it's already included as part of the starter.
wuestenfux wrote: Just wait until they start to release supplementary books with new formations.
The release of such books has been very successful in the current incarnation of the game. What should they stop it.
If you buy the five index books, the Warhammer book, and the starter set, you are almost at 300 Euro.
Why would you buy the book when it's included in the starter anyway? In either case, it's still much cheaper than trying to own even half the codices out now, let alone all of them.
You might hate the models in the starter set and have no need for anything other than the BRB. In which case I guess you could just sell the sprues and keep the book as done in the past but resell value is not going to cover cost of the box.
If you sold *just* the primaris half away at $10 for each unit you would make $80, and thats gotta be ez.
There is no market for reselling this box.
Group 1: Everyone NEEDS the rulebook.
Group 2: Some will want the rulebook AND the models.
Group 3: A small group will want extra models, in addition to the rulebook and a full set of models
Group 4: A tiny minority will want the models and not the rulebook (for various reasons)
Group 5: A tiny minority who will want the stuff1at discount
Group 6: A tiny minority who just want 1 particular unit in multiples (ie, the Primaris Tacticals)
For Group 1 those that just want the rulebook,they can either buy the single rulebook or the starter set, in which case they are either keeping the models and don't need yours, or selling it like you are. They are not going to buy your spare models.
For Group 2, those that want both, they can just buy up the starter set and be done with it. They will not buy up your models because they already have what they need.
Group 3 will be an option to sell, but a smart member of group 3 will just buy 2 starter sets and sell the rulebook, which there will be a greater market for (Ie, group 1)
Group 4 will likewise be about to sell the Rulebook to group 1 or in general, just by buying the starter set.
Group 5 wants discount, so you are selling the models for less than their value. If you sell each unit at say, £10 per unit, that's £80 for the Primaris, which is near the cost of the box and no one would buy that. So you would have to sell the models at a price lower than its value. Say that the box costs £100 and a solo rulebook is £40. You would need to sell the entire box, sans book, for £61 to justify the whole process. A smart person would never fall into this category, because its far too complex and risky. You are very likely to end up paying an extra £60 for models and dice you don't want and can't sell due the oversaturated market.
Group 6 will be buying up individual units, such as the Jump Primaris, or the cultists, whichever is most competitive and in deman. You will be able to sell your few sprues and nothing else as there is no demand for them. Again, you've paid over the odds for the rulebook.
GW have done a good job at killing "buy the set, sell the book" market. In 4th-7th Ed, where BfM, AoBR and DV had mini-rulebooks, the one from the set had its own value in being smaller and more conveniant than the standalone BRB. But if its the same product, the extra value of the starter set book vanishes except for discount. But as every NEEDS this book to play, anyone buying the set will not be able to sell their copy.
Hmm, it looks like if you play the Deathguard side your probably going to want to hunt around for people selling models. I would assume your force should end up looking something like:
Spoiler:
1 Lord of Contagion 1 Noxious Blightbringer 1 Malignant Plaguecaster 3 Foetrid Bloat-drones 3 Units of Plague Marines 6 Untis of Poxwalkers
1 Typhus 3 units of Deathguard Terminators?
3 Rhinos 2-3 other vehicles?
Primaris Player gets off easy.
1 Captain in Gravis Armor 1 Primaris Ancient 1 Lieutenant with auto bolt rifle 4 Incessor squads
2 Lieutenant with Power sword 2 Hellblaster squads
Youn wrote: Hmm, it looks like if you play the Deathguard side your probably going to want to hunt around for people selling models. I would assume your force should end up looking something like:
1 Lord of Contagion
1 Noxious Blightbringer
1 Malignant Plaguecaster
3 Foetrid Bloat-drones
3 Units of Plague Marines
6 Untis of Poxwalkers
1 Typhus
3 units of Deathguard Terminators?
3 Rhinos
2-3 other vehicles?
Primaris Player gets off easy.
1 Captain in Gravis Armor
1 Primaris Ancient
1 Lieutenant with auto bolt rifle
4 Incessor squads
2 Lieutenant with Power sword
2 Hellblaster squads
Based off what we know of the FOC and how an average person would field those armies.
Note: On the primaris marines we know a standard marine is 13 points and a plasma gun is +7. Assuming a primaris marine being 1 extra wound is 20 points.
Your looking at approximately:
1 Captain in Gravis Armor (150)
1 Primaris Ancient (100)
1 Lieutenant with auto bolt rifle (75)
4 Incessor squads (100 points each)
2 Lieutenant with Power sword (75 each)
2 Hellblaster squads (135 points each)
Approximately 2000 points
Note: those are guesses and not real numbers. And even that underestimates the Land raider which has traditionally been 250 points.
I suggest if you want to talk armies based on absolutely no facts whatsoever, take it to the 40K discussion forum, not here. This is about news, not magic wishlisting
The discussion was on the set and if parts of it would sell. The answer is yes, parts would sell. It is as valid of a concern as what color looks best on those models as someone painting them pink is about as valid as someone painting them white.
wuestenfux wrote: Just wait until they start to release supplementary books with new formations.
The release of such books has been very successful in the current incarnation of the game. What should they stop it.
If you buy the five index books, the Warhammer book, and the starter set, you are almost at 300 Euro.
Why would you buy the book when it's included in the starter anyway? In either case, it's still much cheaper than trying to own even half the codices out now, let alone all of them.
You might hate the models in the starter set and have no need for anything other than the BRB. In which case I guess you could just sell the sprues and keep the book as done in the past but resell value is not going to cover cost of the box.
If you sold *just* the primaris half away at $10 for each unit you would make $80, and thats gotta be ez.
There is no market for reselling this box.
Group 1: Everyone NEEDS the rulebook.
Group 2: Some will want the rulebook AND the models.
Group 3: A small group will want extra models, in addition to the rulebook and a full set of models
Group 4: A tiny minority will want the models and not the rulebook (for various reasons)
Group 5: A tiny minority who will want the stuff1at discount
Group 6: A tiny minority who just want 1 particular unit in multiples (ie, the Primaris Tacticals)
For Group 1 those that just want the rulebook,they can either buy the single rulebook or the starter set, in which case they are either keeping the models and don't need yours, or selling it like you are. They are not going to buy your spare models.
For Group 2, those that want both, they can just buy up the starter set and be done with it. They will not buy up your models because they already have what they need.
Group 3 will be an option to sell, but a smart member of group 3 will just buy 2 starter sets and sell the rulebook, which there will be a greater market for (Ie, group 1)
Group 4 will likewise be about to sell the Rulebook to group 1 or in general, just by buying the starter set.
Group 5 wants discount, so you are selling the models for less than their value. If you sell each unit at say, £10 per unit, that's £80 for the Primaris, which is near the cost of the box and no one would buy that. So you would have to sell the models at a price lower than its value. Say that the box costs £100 and a solo rulebook is £40. You would need to sell the entire box, sans book, for £61 to justify the whole process. A smart person would never fall into this category, because its far too complex and risky. You are very likely to end up paying an extra £60 for models and dice you don't want and can't sell due the oversaturated market.
Group 6 will be buying up individual units, such as the Jump Primaris, or the cultists, whichever is most competitive and in deman. You will be able to sell your few sprues and nothing else as there is no demand for them. Again, you've paid over the odds for the rulebook.
GW have done a good job at killing "buy the set, sell the book" market. In 4th-7th Ed, where BfM, AoBR and DV had mini-rulebooks, the one from the set had its own value in being smaller and more conveniant than the standalone BRB. But if its the same product, the extra value of the starter set book vanishes except for discount. But as every NEEDS this book to play, anyone buying the set will not be able to sell their copy.
I'm sorry, but this fly's in contrast to what I know will happen. The people in my local area are already talking about selling what they don't need and making arrangements. Maybe we have a unique community, but I find that to be unlikely.
I also don't think that people behave the way you think they do.
JohnnyHell wrote: That last point isn't valid. The Indexes are to bring every Army into the new edition at once given they've dramatically changed statlines. They've stated full faction Codexes will return later.
Indeed one of the things that many of us have asked for repeatedly is for them to update ALL armies when a new edition is launched to avoid the nonsense we have had with partially compatible codexes, new terrible ones, new broken ones, rules interactions that don't work and general rules that no longer work.
In my opinion it is a big step forward that they have actually done this this time.
I would assume if you put the rulebook from the box set up for about cost or even slightly below and are willing to ship to AU/NZ. Then they would sell pretty much as fast as they came in.
wuestenfux wrote: Just wait until they start to release supplementary books with new formations.
The release of such books has been very successful in the current incarnation of the game. What should they stop it.
If you buy the five index books, the Warhammer book, and the starter set, you are almost at 300 Euro.
Why would you buy the book when it's included in the starter anyway? In either case, it's still much cheaper than trying to own even half the codices out now, let alone all of them.
You might hate the models in the starter set and have no need for anything other than the BRB. In which case I guess you could just sell the sprues and keep the book as done in the past but resell value is not going to cover cost of the box.
If you sold *just* the primaris half away at $10 for each unit you would make $80, and thats gotta be ez.
There is no market for reselling this box.
Group 1: Everyone NEEDS the rulebook.
Group 2: Some will want the rulebook AND the models.
Group 3: A small group will want extra models, in addition to the rulebook and a full set of models
Group 4: A tiny minority will want the models and not the rulebook (for various reasons)
Group 5: A tiny minority who will want the stuff1at discount
Group 6: A tiny minority who just want 1 particular unit in multiples (ie, the Primaris Tacticals)
For Group 1 those that just want the rulebook,they can either buy the single rulebook or the starter set, in which case they are either keeping the models and don't need yours, or selling it like you are. They are not going to buy your spare models.
For Group 2, those that want both, they can just buy up the starter set and be done with it. They will not buy up your models because they already have what they need.
Group 3 will be an option to sell, but a smart member of group 3 will just buy 2 starter sets and sell the rulebook, which there will be a greater market for (Ie, group 1)
Group 4 will likewise be about to sell the Rulebook to group 1 or in general, just by buying the starter set.
Group 5 wants discount, so you are selling the models for less than their value. If you sell each unit at say, £10 per unit, that's £80 for the Primaris, which is near the cost of the box and no one would buy that. So you would have to sell the models at a price lower than its value. Say that the box costs £100 and a solo rulebook is £40. You would need to sell the entire box, sans book, for £61 to justify the whole process. A smart person would never fall into this category, because its far too complex and risky. You are very likely to end up paying an extra £60 for models and dice you don't want and can't sell due the oversaturated market.
Group 6 will be buying up individual units, such as the Jump Primaris, or the cultists, whichever is most competitive and in deman. You will be able to sell your few sprues and nothing else as there is no demand for them. Again, you've paid over the odds for the rulebook.
GW have done a good job at killing "buy the set, sell the book" market. In 4th-7th Ed, where BfM, AoBR and DV had mini-rulebooks, the one from the set had its own value in being smaller and more conveniant than the standalone BRB. But if its the same product, the extra value of the starter set book vanishes except for discount. But as every NEEDS this book to play, anyone buying the set will not be able to sell their copy.
I'm sorry, but this fly's in contrast to what I know will happen. The people in my local area are already talking about selling what they don't need and making arrangements. Maybe we have a unique community, but I find that to be unlikely.
I also don't think that people behave the way you think they do.
Communities are one thing, its just selling to friends (encompassing people who are actually friends and people you just know). Splitting a box is just the same. But buying for the rules and selling on the models needs to at least break even, otherwise you're just paying over the odds for the rules. Plus, everyone still NEEDS the rules if they want to play, and if they want both the rules and models they are better off just buying the box themselves, so there is no market for reselling, other than those who want duplicates. Except we know the Primaris Marines will be getting plastic kits at some point as a new faction, and likely very soon. Its not like with DV where you get some nicely sculpted monopose Dark Angels that are exactly the same unit as Tacticals and Bikes, these are a brand new model line that WILL be getting models in the very near future. I can't see anyone buying up these monopose models in lieu of normal multi-parts that will drop a few weeks later.
GW have done a good job at killing "buy the set, sell the book" market. In 4th-7th Ed, where BfM, AoBR and DV had mini-rulebooks, the one from the set had its own value in being smaller and more conveniant than the standalone BRB. But if its the same product, the extra value of the starter set book vanishes except for discount. But as every NEEDS this book to play, anyone buying the set will not be able to sell their copy.
But those buying multiple sets will have an easy time selling their extra books at discount. To be honest I think the Primaris will sell well also at a discount. Death Guard however will be dirt cheap for those looking to pick them up. Far far less people playing them means far more available on the market.
I really hope that is true on the deathguard. I have deathguard army now and as I posted above. Would like 3 of a unit that only comes in 1 per 150.00 box set. And my guess, based on standard pricing is if in a single kit. That drone will be 40.00 a piece. As nothing from GW comes in much cheaper then that.
GW have done a good job at killing "buy the set, sell the book" market. In 4th-7th Ed, where BfM, AoBR and DV had mini-rulebooks, the one from the set had its own value in being smaller and more conveniant than the standalone BRB. But if its the same product, the extra value of the starter set book vanishes except for discount. But as every NEEDS this book to play, anyone buying the set will not be able to sell their copy.
But those buying multiple sets will have an easy time selling their extra books at discount. To be honest I think the Primaris will sell well also at a discount. Death Guard however will be dirt cheap for those looking to pick them up. Far far less people playing them means far more available on the market.
I don't see the Primaris selling well, personally, as mutliparts will be released in the very near future. Very likely they'll be the first release of the new edition in July.
Buying multiple sets helps sell the books yes, but what about all the models you still don't want? All you've done now is pay £300 to have 1 rulebook and maybe recoup the other £260 you paid for the other 2 rulebooks and 3 sets of models, dice, and Combat Gauge thingies. Even if you sell a full set at retail price, recouping your losses, your buyer isn't saving any money, and you are just breaking even, so who benefits from this? The other side is that you pay £300 for 3 sets, sell some of it and are left out of pocket and with excess stock. You'd be better off just buying up the book on its own, as they are exactly the same product. IF the set came with a small book, even, a slight loss in monetary value would be acceptable for the added conveniance of the small book, but as both are the big book, it makes no sense to take the extra financial risk.
To clarify, I'm talking a situation where you ONLY want the rulebook, and have no interest in the models or other contents. There are only 3 outcomes:
Profit Break even Loss
Profit will not happen as it requires sale of the contents at over retail value.
Break even will very likely not happen as it requires sale AT retail value, in which case the buyer would be better off buying up the whole set and selling on the rulebook. Except they need the ruleboook too, so why sell?
Loss is extremely likely, why risk it when you don't need to?
Models with many poses only makes sense to modelers. I know sounds crazy but some people just want to play the game. That is why in the local stores people are looking at trading the models with their friends.
Also, traditionally the kits are far more expensive to build an army out of vs the starter box. If your looking the build an army it's almost always cheaper to start with a starter box or two.
Or a GET STARTED box, how much would a 5 man squad of Primaris Marines go for on their own? You can assume they won't be cheaper then 40 dollars for the tactical squad. So, you can look at those marines as being generally around 40-50 dollars for 5 Primaris Marines.
If someone puts them up for 25 dollars. They will sell. And will sell alot quicker, once those kits come out with the 40-50 dollar pricing.
Does anyone else think that the starter forces are really HQ heavy? The marines have three HQs, four if the Ancient is a HQ too. Nurgle has three HQs. This is probably not optimal for forces this small... I'd assume force consisting of less than twenty marines would be led by a single lieutenant and that's it.
Youn wrote: Models with many poses only makes sense to modelers. I know sounds crazy but some people just want to play the game. That is why in the local stores people are looking at trading the models with their friends.
Also, traditionally the kits are far more expensive to build an army out of vs the starter box. If your looking the build an army it's almost always cheaper to start with a starter box or two.
Or a GET STARTED box, how much would a 5 man squad of Primaris Marines go for on their own? You can assume they won't be cheaper then 40 dollars for the tactical squad. So, you can look at those marines as being generally around 40-50 dollars for 5 Primaris Marines.
If someone puts them up for 25 dollars. They will sell. And will sell alot quicker, once those kits come out with the 40-50 dollar pricing.
The number of people who only care for the game and just want the models as game pieces is a drop in the ocean. I've been playing the game for around 10 years, and on this site for 5. I have NEVER seen anyone who only ever uses the snapfit starter models. Usually because the starter set models have the worst possibly loadout as well.
Again, if someone wnated them only to game with, they'd be better off buying up multiple sets and selling THEIR rulebooks to those who dont want the models at all, as then you can actually sell them at discount without fear of loss or having excess stock. I don't see a single situation where buying the set for the rules alone would be profitable or help you break even, so if you do that, you're pretty much taking a loss for something tht you could have just bought straight off the shelf, or at discount yourself.
The mini-rulebook was different, you got added value of conveniance which you couldn't buy off the shelf.
My marines I use in my army are the Circa 1989 vintage marines in all pewter. It should be noted I bought this army brand new in blister packs at that time. People kid me at my FLGS because my models are actually older then some of the players at the store. They are all of the same 5-6 poses.
I also own an eldar army in all pewter from 1993 era.
My Deathguard army and my GK army are the only armies adjustable poses. And the Deathguard are the metal deathguard with plastic arms, so even they are limited to just their arms in different poses.
I don't see the Primaris selling well, personally, as mutliparts will be released in the very near future. Very likely they'll be the first release of the new edition in July.
Buying multiple sets helps sell the books yes, but what about all the models you still don't want? All you've done now is pay £300 to have 1 rulebook and maybe recoup the other £260 you paid for the other 2 rulebooks and 3 sets of models, dice, and Combat Gauge thingies. Even if you sell a full set at retail price, recouping your losses, your buyer isn't saving any money, and you are just breaking even, so who benefits from this? The other side is that you pay £300 for 3 sets, sell some of it and are left out of pocket and with excess stock. You'd be better off just buying up the book on its own, as they are exactly the same product. IF the set came with a small book, even, a slight loss in monetary value would be acceptable for the added conveniance of the small book, but as both are the big book, it makes no sense to take the extra financial risk.
I'll go with US prices as they are more relevant for me. $160 for the set. Selling things off $50 for the rulebook, its $60 on the shelf so should be easy. I'll get rid of things I don't need at $8 for characters and $12 for squads, $60 for the faction probably a bit less if its the Nurgle stuff and a bit more if its the Marines. Yes they are mono-pose but they will be 20%-30% of the cost of the regular kit. Well worth it to many people. So for $50-60 I get a second set of what I want. Will I make money? no. Will I get that and keep what I want at a decent price, definitely.
I will probably get some of the multipart primaris kits as I like posing miniatures and bit swaps with other kits are easier, but the starter kit models look really good and there are not many duplicate poses, so I think most people will be completely OK with using mostly those. I think the desirability of the multipart kits will greatly depend on whether they will actually contain any options not present in the starter. (I'm sure GW understands this too, and thus I expect to see new option in the multipart kits. Really hoping for melee option for the jump dudes and some options for the sergeants.)
Crimson wrote: Does anyone else think that the starter forces are really HQ heavy? The marines have three HQs, four if the Ancient is a HQ too. Nurgle has three HQs. This is probably not optimal for forces this small... I'd assume force consisting of less than twenty marines would be led by a single lieutenant and that's it.
(Not complaining, just an observation.)
That's assuming the LTs and Ancient are HQs at all. Perhaps they will form a Command Squad. Command Squads should have LTs anyway, not Sergeants.
Unless they include a special Detachment, there are too many HQs to run in a Patrol Detachment, but not enough Troops to run a Battalion.
I think it is kind of funny that the entire time I was a Lieutenant, no role existed for a Lieutenant in a Space Marine army. But as soon as I get promoted to Captain, BOOM, Lieutenants all over the place. Oh well, I hope a custom kit for a Captain comes out so I can commemorate my promotion with a new model.
casvalremdeikun wrote: That's assuming the LTs and Ancient are HQs at all. Perhaps they will form a Command Squad. Command Squads should have LTs anyway, not Sergeants.
Unless they include a special Detachment, there are too many HQs to run in a Patrol Detachment, but not enough Troops to run a Battalion.
I really hope that the lieutenants can be taken as the mandatory HQ. It never made any sense that small patrols composed of couple of squads were led by a high ranking officer.
Crimson wrote: Does anyone else think that the starter forces are really HQ heavy? The marines have three HQs, four if the Ancient is a HQ too. Nurgle has three HQs. This is probably not optimal for forces this small... I'd assume force consisting of less than twenty marines would be led by a single lieutenant and that's it.
(Not complaining, just an observation.)
I have a feeling some will be elite character like we know the kroot shaper is leaving the unit but isn't a HQ I could also to see via the wording how brood lords work with genestealers so they would be like solos from WH/H.
I love the new models, but something that is making me nervous now is transporting them. A lot of my cases came cut for the smaller marines. I get the feeling these won't fit standing up in those nice citadel cases that have the channel foam setups, for example.
HQs are probably not optimal but AOS points to them being pushed (presumably successfully).
I'd have thought ebay splitting the box would be profitable because it almost always is. Id like the Death Guard units. I'd probably pay say £50 for them (assuming buying the individual kits when released is going to be much higher - characters alone could be £15 each). If you can get the starter at a 20-25% discount then its easy. Buy at about £75 and sell both sets for about £100.
The issue is that many people will do it and this brings the price down.
I don't see the Primaris selling well, personally, as mutliparts will be released in the very near future. Very likely they'll be the first release of the new edition in July.
Buying multiple sets helps sell the books yes, but what about all the models you still don't want? All you've done now is pay £300 to have 1 rulebook and maybe recoup the other £260 you paid for the other 2 rulebooks and 3 sets of models, dice, and Combat Gauge thingies. Even if you sell a full set at retail price, recouping your losses, your buyer isn't saving any money, and you are just breaking even, so who benefits from this? The other side is that you pay £300 for 3 sets, sell some of it and are left out of pocket and with excess stock. You'd be better off just buying up the book on its own, as they are exactly the same product. IF the set came with a small book, even, a slight loss in monetary value would be acceptable for the added conveniance of the small book, but as both are the big book, it makes no sense to take the extra financial risk.
I'll go with US prices as they are more relevant for me. $160 for the set. Selling things off $50 for the rulebook, its $60 on the shelf so should be easy. I'll get rid of things I don't need at $8 for characters and $12 for squads, $60 for the faction probably a bit less if its the Nurgle stuff and a bit more if its the Marines. Yes they are mono-pose but they will be 20%-30% of the cost of the regular kit. Well worth it to many people. So for $50-60 I get a second set of what I want. Will I make money? no. Will I get that and keep what I want at a decent price, definitely.
You're talking about something very different to what I am. You want more than just the rulebook, so you don't need to make a profit on the rest of the contents to justify it. If you buy at 160 retail and sell the Nurgle for 45, you've now gotten your desired contents for a 45 discount on retail.
If you just wanted the rulebook, you'd need to sell the rest of the set for $101 minimum, which is more than the retail price of those models, so you're no longer offering a cheap alternative for buyers.
Okay, I'm going to sum this up and let this argument die: Why would you spend extra money for the rulebook, and HOPE to make profit on the things that SOME people WANT, when you can just buy the rulebook at retail? The rulebook is something EVERYONE NEEDS. So if you NEED the rulebook and WANT EXTRA models, why fidget around with all this business and not just straight up buy the set, then sell the spare rulebook to the people who NEED it?
Crimson wrote: Does anyone else think that the starter forces are really HQ heavy? The marines have three HQs, four if the Ancient is a HQ too. Nurgle has three HQs. This is probably not optimal for forces this small... I'd assume force consisting of less than twenty marines would be led by a single lieutenant and that's it.
(Not complaining, just an observation.)
That's assuming the LTs and Ancient are HQs at all. Perhaps they will form a Command Squad. Command Squads should have LTs anyway, not Sergeants.
Unless they include a special Detachment, there are too many HQs to run in a Patrol Detachment, but not enough Troops to run a Battalion.
I think it is kind of funny that the entire time I was a Lieutenant, no role existed for a Lieutenant in a Space Marine army. But as soon as I get promoted to Captain, BOOM, Lieutenants all over the place. Oh well, I hope a custom kit for a Captain comes out so I can commemorate my promotion with a new model.
casvalremdeikun wrote: That's assuming the LTs and Ancient are HQs at all. Perhaps they will form a Command Squad. Command Squads should have LTs anyway, not Sergeants.
Unless they include a special Detachment, there are too many HQs to run in a Patrol Detachment, but not enough Troops to run a Battalion.
I really hope that the lieutenants can be taken as the mandatory HQ. It never made any sense that small patrols composed of couple of squads were led by a high ranking officer.
I hope so as well. Perhaps a Command Squad can be taken as an HQ though. Who knows.
Funny side note: In real life, platoon has more Captains in it than an entire Space Marine Chapter.
I have to figure out how I am going to delineate the Lieutenants from bog-standard Marines in my Crimson Fists. I won't be changing their heraldry at all, which means no colored helmets. Giving them two red fists (despite them not being Veterans...) is about all I can do. Hopefully some of the transfers represent the command roles. Heck, I hope that the box includes transfers for multiple Chapters anyway. Probably won't because Ultramarines, but a guy can hope.
The multipart kits can't come soon enough. One thing of note from the images on Miniwars is that the Captain's head is separate from his body. Hopefully that means the heads of much of the rest of the models are separate as well. Should make modifying them much easier.
I like that space marines have lieutenants now. I always felt like they were missing an important part in the chain of command. Had I had my way, the old space marine command squads would have had lieutenants instead of just sergeants.
Alpharius wrote:WHY are the Plague Marines getting bigger too?
I mean, sure, we know why, just look at Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Custodes, Sisters of Silence, etc.
...but still!
Bring it all to true scale on how they should have been from the start. More curious to see a thousands son placed next to a numarine for a scale shot.
ClockworkZion wrote:
streetsamurai wrote: We saw the sheet of the inceptors, and they have no weapon options
That might have been the sheet from the starter and not the unit's full options they'll have when they get a kit.
This is exactly like Prosecutors are in AoS. Starter had double hammers only. Box set had hammers, shields/spear and 2 handed weapon options. I can easily see these guys getting a heavy weapon option with machine gun bolters and possibly CC option in the box.
streetsamurai wrote: We saw the sheet of the inceptors, and they have no weapon options
That might have been the sheet from the starter and not the unit's full options they'll have when they get a kit.
Indeed. When Stormcast Eternals were first released, the datasheet in the starter set only had them being able to have Warhammers, despite a sword variant eventually coming out.
You're talking about something very different to what I am. You want more than just the rulebook, so you don't need to make a profit on the rest of the contents to justify it. If you buy at 160 retail and sell the Nurgle for 45, you've now gotten your desired contents for a 45 discount on retail.
If you just wanted the rulebook, you'd need to sell the rest of the set for $101 minimum, which is more than the retail price of those models, so you're no longer offering a cheap alternative for buyers.
Okay, I'm going to sum this up and let this argument die: Why would you spend extra money for the rulebook, and HOPE to make profit on the things that SOME people WANT, when you can just buy the rulebook at retail? The rulebook is something EVERYONE NEEDS. So if you NEED the rulebook and WANT EXTRA models, why fidget around with all this business and not just straight up buy the set, then sell the spare rulebook to the people who NEED it?
All the bloat in the game had to go somewhere. Looks like it went into those Plague Marines...
Seriously though, making them the same size as the current Tacticals kit is fine in my book. They are a score stouter than though models though, but I'm not complaining as they,re more visually interesting too.
Future War Cultist wrote: I like that space marines have lieutenants now. I always felt like they were missing an important part in the chain of command. Had I had my way, the old space marine command squads would have had lieutenants instead of just sergeants.
SM Lieutenants had rules and models throughout 1st Edition and functioned basically as 1st officiers to the Commander They were independent characters with minor hero stats (champions, minor heroes and major heroes stat categories were used for most 40k factions). I am happy they are going to bring them back too.
Future War Cultist wrote: I like that space marines have lieutenants now. I always felt like they were missing an important part in the chain of command. Had I had my way, the old space marine command squads would have had lieutenants instead of just sergeants.
In the famous CSM 3.5 edition codex, they had lieutenants. I ran two of them on bikes.
Future War Cultist wrote: I like that space marines have lieutenants now. I always felt like they were missing an important part in the chain of command. Had I had my way, the old space marine command squads would have had lieutenants instead of just sergeants.
SM Lieutenants had rules and models throughout 1st Edition and functioned basically as 1st officiers to the Commander They were independent characters with minor hero stats (champions, minor heroes and major heroes stat categories were used for most 40k factions). I am happy they are going to bring them back too.
Cool. I was not aware of that. I always flavored the Command Squad as being the Lieutenants of a SM Company anyway, but actually have a true role for them now is great. I wish the included models were equally blingy though. The Auto Bolt Rifle Lieutenant looks rather plain next to the Power Sword Lieutenant.
ClockworkZion wrote: All the bloat in the game had to go somewhere. Looks like it went into those Plague Marines...
Seriously though, making them the same size as the current Tacticals kit is fine in my book. They are a score stouter than though models though, but I'm not complaining as they,re more visually interesting too.
That isn't a tactical size. They are the size of the Primaris by the pictures. Even same base size.
If you go to your local GW they all have a Primaris and Death Guard painted by the army painters! They are fantastic sculpts. There must be some variety in the Death Guard heights themselves because this one is definitely bulkier and bigger than my WIP Deathwatch Heavy.
ClockworkZion wrote: All the bloat in the game had to go somewhere. Looks like it went into those Plague Marines...
Seriously though, making them the same size as the current Tacticals kit is fine in my book. They are a score stouter than though models though, but I'm not complaining as they,re more visually interesting too.
That isn't a tactical size. They are the size of the Primaris by the pictures. Even same base size.
That's the 32mm base.bthe Dark Angel is on the old bases that came with the 7th ed starter.
I mean, sure, we know why, just look at Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Custodes, Sisters of Silence, etc.
...but still!
They said the chaos gods have been busy, improving things. The chaos marines are gaining power, and it seems size as well.
So you're saying that...Chaos is being to grow?!?
(Or something like that!)
I would like it if the Primaris Marines remained the only 'tall ones' for at least a little while!
I think it's probably better than they just go forward with moving all the Space Marines to a more similar scale. The Deathwatch and Thousand Sons are now the odd men out, as they don't fit in with either the scale of the old marines or the Primaris. I'm also glad that Chaos looks to be more similar in scale to the Nu-marines...I can't imagine the gnashing of teeth Chaos players would undergo if their marines permanently became smaller than the ultra good guys.
... why are the Plague Marines, in their Mk.II/Mk.III Armour Hybrid, the same size as the brand new Primaris Marines?
I was afraid that the new Marines were just a thinly veiled attempt at replacing the existing models. The new Chaos Marines clinch that. Every Marine will be biggerized soon enough. Once they expand upon the new BA v 'Nids fluff, you can bet Dante will finally get a new model, but he'll have gone through the 'upgrade' to a Primaris Marine. Ditto for ol' Az.
DCannon4Life wrote: I suppose, if you have a unit rolling 12+ LasCannon shots, it could slow the game down. I'm not familiar with any units that do that. And we're all already used to rolling results separately; when shooting LasCannons at a unit of War Walkers, for example, we roll the results one at a time to see if we get 'Explodes' results.
This will very much be like that: "Is he dead yet? No? Here's the next LasCannon's Damage roll." "Is he dead NOW? NO?! Good grief, here's the NEXT LasCannon's Damage roll...."
10 support marines from legions list says hi. Also predator annihilator has 4 lascannons so multiple wounds incoming, land raider likewise and spartan from FW will have whopping 8 lascannon shots.
And apart from who rolled vehicle damage separately that's still not same as that was 1 dice one at a time. Here it woudl be dice followed by multiple dice followed by same process set.
Don't see them going that way. Especially as there's perfectly working way to ensure no separate rolling. After rolling for damage trim excess damage to amount of wounds model has.
Well, all I can say in response is that I've been play-testing 8th since last fall, and this particular feature (multi-damage weapons vs. units with multi-wound models) isn't slowing the game down at all. I'm part of the Adepticon team, for the record.
Fluff wise the Chaos Gods are pushing back at Guilliman,s attempts at making the Imperium less gak and have begun to empower their forces even more, especially Nurgle who is pissed that Guilliman is even alive.
In actuallity it's more that the bigger guys just look better in the starter being the same size as the Primaris and less like weedly manlet cult marines.
... why are the Plague Marines, in their Mk.II/Mk.III Armour Hybrid, the same size as the brand new Primaris Marines?
I was afraid that the new Marines were just a thinly veiled attempt at replacing the existing models. The new Chaos Marines clinch that. Every Marine will be biggerized soon enough. Once they expand upon the new BA v 'Nids fluff, you can bet Dante will finally get a new model, but he'll have gone through the 'upgrade' to a Primaris Marine. Ditto for ol' Az.
Scroll up a bit and you'll see answers. But in short, GW stated that the Chaos Gods are not going to sit idly by and watch new marines come out. They've been busy too, giving power, creating new things. Nurgle especially likes to create new stuff, it's part of his portfolio.
I never actually found Space Marines to require a Lieutenant or any such middle-man. Each officer only has 9 men to worry about: The Sergeant only has the 10 Marines in his squad. The Captain only has 10 Sergeants in his company, who are capable of handling the individual 9 Marines in their squad without the Captain needing to micromanage everything. And the Chapter Master has his 10 Captains that he can basically wash his hands and let them handle 99% of matters inside their own company.
For command squads, you have the designated Veteran Sergeant who stands as the second in command. That's a Lieutenant without needed to add that rank in. Bearing in mind, the rank is Veteran Sergeant, not a Sergeant who is also very experienced. Its the SM equivilent to a Colour Sergeant, who ranks above "Sergeant."
Its one of the elements I always liked about the SM, they don't have superflous ranks lik Cpl, Lance Cpl, Warrant officer, etc. You have Battle Brother (Private), Brother Sergeant, Brother Captain, Chapter Master (General). There isn't micro-granularity of rank so that you have individual marines ranking slightly higher than the rest of his squad.
whirlwindstruggle wrote: I may have missed this, but are the unit datasheets going to be available for free at launch, or does one have to buy the index? Is this known yet?
Unknown. There will be a list builder ap "soon after" launch. It will likely have the power levels. I believed that learned AoS players have said that they have one ap that is free (power levels for open/narrative play) and one ap that you pay $1.50 per month for points (for matched play).
I don't know anything about that and the poster may have been typing out of his ass.
DCannon4Life wrote: I suppose, if you have a unit rolling 12+ LasCannon shots, it could slow the game down. I'm not familiar with any units that do that. And we're all already used to rolling results separately; when shooting LasCannons at a unit of War Walkers, for example, we roll the results one at a time to see if we get 'Explodes' results.
This will very much be like that: "Is he dead yet? No? Here's the next LasCannon's Damage roll." "Is he dead NOW? NO?! Good grief, here's the NEXT LasCannon's Damage roll...."
10 support marines from legions list says hi. Also predator annihilator has 4 lascannons so multiple wounds incoming, land raider likewise and spartan from FW will have whopping 8 lascannon shots.
And apart from who rolled vehicle damage separately that's still not same as that was 1 dice one at a time. Here it woudl be dice followed by multiple dice followed by same process set.
Don't see them going that way. Especially as there's perfectly working way to ensure no separate rolling. After rolling for damage trim excess damage to amount of wounds model has.
Well, all I can say in response is that I've been play-testing 8th since last fall, and this particular feature (multi-damage weapons vs. units with multi-wound models) isn't slowing the game down at all. I'm part of the Adepticon team, for the record.
I know you likely have an NDA but any chance you could break down how multi-damage weapons work versus say a squad of Terminators in terms of rolling to wounds, save and damage?
nintura wrote: Scroll up a bit and you'll see answers. But in short, GW stated that the Chaos Gods are not going to sit idly by and watch new marines come out. They've been busy too, giving power, creating new things. Nurgle especially likes to create new stuff, it's part of his portfolio.
I don't care what the fluff reasons are. You can use the fluff to justify anything. These are the blatant first steps to utterly replace several entire model lines, rendering armies across the world essentially obsolete.
It just seems so cynical, and is another example of GW burning their legacy Warhammer Fantasy style to, what, sell some new miniatures?
Many often comment that GW occasionally shoot themselves in the foot. This seems like like GW sawing their own arms off because they think it'll make them more aerodynamic!
Deadshot wrote: I never actually found Space Marines to require a Lieutenant or any such middle-man. Each officer only has 9 men to worry about: The Sergeant only has the 10 Marines in his squad. The Captain only has 10 Sergeants in his company, who are capable of handling the individual 9 Marines in their squad without the Captain needing to micromanage everything. And the Chapter Master has his 10 Captains that he can basically wash his hands and let them handle 99% of matters inside their own company.
For command squads, you have the designated Veteran Sergeant who stands as the second in command. That's a Lieutenant without needed to add that rank in. Bearing in mind, the rank is Veteran Sergeant, not a Sergeant who is also very experienced. Its the SM equivilent to a Colour Sergeant, who ranks above "Sergeant."
Except there was not a way to have such a veteran sergeant to be your mandatory HQ. It doesn't matter what this commander-lesser-than-a-captain is actually called, one is still logically needed. (And no, librarians and chaplains don't count, they're not line officers.)
nintura wrote: Scroll up a bit and you'll see answers. But in short, GW stated that the Chaos Gods are not going to sit idly by and watch new marines come out. They've been busy too, giving power, creating new things. Nurgle especially likes to create new stuff, it's part of his portfolio.
I don't care what the fluff reasons are. You can use the fluff to justify anything. These are the blatant first steps to utterly replace several entire model lines, rendering armies across the world essentially obsolete.
Yeah. While they won't remove rules for mini Marines, I expect there will be no further development or kits for them. They also wanted to make them stronger to encourage the purchase.
Im not upset by it personally, but it's easy to see why people would be.
nintura wrote: Scroll up a bit and you'll see answers. But in short, GW stated that the Chaos Gods are not going to sit idly by and watch new marines come out. They've been busy too, giving power, creating new things. Nurgle especially likes to create new stuff, it's part of his portfolio.
I don't care what the fluff reasons are. You can use the fluff to justify anything. These are the blatant first steps to utterly replace several entire model lines, rendering armies across the world essentially obsolete.
It just seems so cynical, and is another example of GW burning their legacy Warhammer Fantasy style to, what, sell some new miniatures?
Many often comment that GW occasionally shoot themselves in the foot. This seems like like GW sawing their own arms off because they think it'll make them more aerodynamic!
Change happens. Otherwise things get stagnant. Especially after 20+ years. If you can't embrace change, then you're going to hate life. The fact is, the scale looks better, the mini's have better detail and more options. All around the mini is just a better option. People just get stuck on the past, or just don't want to redo work they've always done.
I don't care what the fluff reasons are. You can use the fluff to justify anything. These are the blatant first steps to utterly replace several entire model lines, rendering armies across the world essentially obsolete.
Yes, this is absolutely what it is.
But these new models look absolutely stunning, so I'm on board!
It is really not any different that when I replaced my metal and singlepose plastic marines with the new multipose marines when they were released during the third edition. And a lot of people had replaced their plastic RT beakies before that.
I mean, sure, we know why, just look at Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Custodes, Sisters of Silence, etc.
...but still!
Because you can charge up to double for larger figures that cost pennies more to punch out and equivalent cost to 3D model compared with normal 32mm figures. While we're both fans of truescale marines, this is just the likely beginning of a general scale increase going forward. I expect orks to get alot bigger (and probably get a stupid new name like they did in WHFB/AOS to orruks) next... then all of a sudden nids will probably get a growth spurt...etc.
nintura wrote: Scroll up a bit and you'll see answers. But in short, GW stated that the Chaos Gods are not going to sit idly by and watch new marines come out. They've been busy too, giving power, creating new things. Nurgle especially likes to create new stuff, it's part of his portfolio.
I don't care what the fluff reasons are. You can use the fluff to justify anything. These are the blatant first steps to utterly replace several entire model lines, rendering armies across the world essentially obsolete.
It just seems so cynical, and is another example of GW burning their legacy Warhammer Fantasy style to, what, sell some new miniatures?
Many often comment that GW occasionally shoot themselves in the foot. This seems like like GW sawing their own arms off because they think it'll make them more aerodynamic!
I don't agree. For one due to seeing several different examples it looks like the new DG vary in height instead of being a uniform size (which works for me since the actual Marines should vary in height as well).
And two, a slow replacement of Marines (assuming it to be happening at all) is better than a massive dump of new models and taking the old stuff away.
Frankly at this point, what can they give Marines other than an upscaled version that are the correct size? I can,t think of anything from the fluff or HH they could really squeeze in, so bringing in a truescale model line replacement is honestly the best choice going forward. Making them a part of the lore and rules lets people have a reason to get invested in them and to start collecting them. Plus we might get a neat civil war campaign story out of this where some chapters refuse to use them and but heads with Guilliman over it.
Deadshot wrote: I never actually found Space Marines to require a Lieutenant or any such middle-man. Each officer only has 9 men to worry about: The Sergeant only has the 10 Marines in his squad. The Captain only has 10 Sergeants in his company, who are capable of handling the individual 9 Marines in their squad without the Captain needing to micromanage everything. And the Chapter Master has his 10 Captains that he can basically wash his hands and let them handle 99% of matters inside their own company.
For command squads, you have the designated Veteran Sergeant who stands as the second in command. That's a Lieutenant without needed to add that rank in. Bearing in mind, the rank is Veteran Sergeant, not a Sergeant who is also very experienced. Its the SM equivilent to a Colour Sergeant, who ranks above "Sergeant."
Except there was not a way to have such a veteran sergeant to be your mandatory HQ. It doesn't matter what this commander-lesser-than-a-captain is actually called, one is still logically needed. (And no, librarians and chaplains don't count, they're not line officers.)
A veteran sergeant is more than capable of leading a small force such as 2 Tactical Squads, a Predator and a techmarine. Why do you need a Lieutenant to micromanage tiny excursions? If the tiny strike force was that vital you are better off having the top guy (Captain) lead it himself to ensure success, while leaving the wider battle to your right hand man. There doesn't need to be a middleman.
The 2 Troops 1 HQ system is also a relic of 5th Ed that's been slowly phased out, and now entirely obselete unless desired. No longer needing a minor officer to fill up tax.
Anyone else thinking that the Chaos Gods may not have been as giving with their boons as much as they were with the growth hormones since we don't extra wounds on Rubrics or being hinted at for the Death Guard?
ClockworkZion wrote: Anyone else thinking that the Chaos Gods may not have been as giving with their boons as much as they were with the growth hormones since we don't extra wounds on Rubrics or being hinted at for the Death Guard?
ClockworkZion wrote: Anyone else thinking that the Chaos Gods may not have been as giving with their boons as much as they were with the growth hormones since we don't extra wounds on Rubrics or being hinted at for the Death Guard?
I mean, sure, we know why, just look at Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Custodes, Sisters of Silence, etc.
...but still!
yea this worries me from my collection standpoint... new zerkers are unlikely to be small either i bet
Yup... I'd recommend looking at chaos figs before and after AOS. I'd expect world legion bezerkers to get bumped up just like those AOS khorne humans bezerkers did.
ClockworkZion wrote: Anyone else thinking that the Chaos Gods may not have been as giving with their boons as much as they were with the growth hormones since we don't extra wounds on Rubrics or being hinted at for the Death Guard?
Do we know Primaris get 2 wounds apiece?
It would appear so.
Wow, for 6 power they seem a little over the top maybe?
I love the new models, but the drastic re-scaling has me thoroughly disenchanted. I have so many SM kits in the queue that have been undermined by the new Primaris SM's that my motivation to build & paint them has been utterly decimated.
What's next on the re-scaling block? The uncertainty is terrifying. The thought of my models, my entire collection, being obsoleted has me reeling from the hobby.
Which is annoying cas now I wish I could have giant Templars but just heads and pads won't cut it. 
