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Are you allowed to ally with yourself?

That seems sort of counter productive, unless they change the FOC so that you only get 2 HQ, and 3 Elites, if you ally with yourself.

It's all about your intention.

If someone wants to include Long Fangs/Venom/IG Stuff/Etc in their army because they genuinely love the models or genuinely love a bit of Fluff they appear in, then they're not TFG. If, however, they're doing it so they have a better chance of winning then yes, they probably are TFG.

Thatguyoverthere wrote:Are you allowed to ally with yourself?

That seems sort of counter productive, unless they change the FOC so that you only get 2 HQ, and 3 Elites, if you ally with yourself.

Well the allies chart says that each army can ally with itself no problems, and rightly so. Many will see it as an excuse to get more for one army. Nids will now be able to run 7 Tervigons and 4 broods of Gaunts (2 in HQ, 3 Troops, 1 Allied HQ and 1 Allied troop with another Termagaunt brood).

How about running 8 Stormravens? Play GK/BA and take the 3 you normally have, plus allied GK one in Allied FA and an Allied BA in Allied HS. Or is it only 1 codex as an ally?

b-man wrote:TFG is TFG, you know who they are whether they use allies or not.

Oh my god, this. TFG has nothing to do with what kind of list you run, how well you paint, whether you play more marines than xenos, or whatever. Its strictly about the player attitude. The TFG at my LGS is a guy who plays space wolves, is severely overweight, loud, bombastic, and generally obnoxious. He is happy to walk over to you, uninvited, while you are playing a game, and tell you about how your army is flavor of the month unfluffy, waac, poorly painted, and whatever else. He also likes to put his army case and foam down on 2-3 tables, and you have to fight him to get him to move it so you can use one for actual playing. At another store about 100 miles away, the tfg is a competitive guy who stays in shape, dressed well, likes to run tough armies, but he constantly tries to cheat and bully people on the rules. One is just an donkey-cave, the other is textbook waac.

I kind of want to play against that list. Just to see if I can put down 14d6 worth of Termagaunts a turn.

12 Basilisks might be able to do it.

Thatguyoverthere wrote:I kind of want to play against that list. Just to see if I can put down 14d6 worth of Termagaunts a turn.

12 Basilisks might be able to do it.

Whats the ignore cover ordnance tank?

Orks can ally with space marines.

Wat.

I won't be using the allies system. My orks run alone.

I'm pumped, I get my Inquisition list back! Imperial Guard base with Valkyries, Veterans, and Stormtroopers, allied GK army with an Inquisitor, an Assassin, and a few PAGKs.

Grugknuckle wrote:I see what the OP is trying to say, and I think he has a legitimate point. But look at it this way... For all of those players who hate GK and SW because they are "overpowered" and are tired of losing. Now you can have some OP cheese in your army too.

I play space wolves - have always played space wolves and will always play space wolves and I can tell you they don't need allies. Nor do I want any. But it might be fun to convert up a death watch kill team and a deathwatch captain just to have them in my army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And by the way .... people have been playing 2 on 2 team games for a long time. Those games had no restrictions on who could be allies. They must have had the same issues, but I dont' remember anybody complaining then.

Nothing wrong with you playing SW and always have and will, and wanting to try something different, I can understand, but someone say trying SW and then GK when no Deamons are present, IS TFG. No fluff reason to play that at all.

<--- my reaction to the people saying you can ally with yourself. Why on earth would GW put that in there? They might as well just change the force org instead.

BA and GK would be a fluffy alliance. Its in the codexes after all

loota boy wrote:Orks can ally with space marines.

Wat.

I won't be using the allies system. My orks run alone.

Well, for orks it's not an ally table, but a loot table. The different levels of lootability only show how well orks understand the looted tech

Deadshot wrote:

Thatguyoverthere wrote:Are you allowed to ally with yourself?

That seems sort of counter productive, unless they change the FOC so that you only get 2 HQ, and 3 Elites, if you ally with yourself.

Well the allies chart says that each army can ally with itself no problems, and rightly so. Many will see it as an excuse to get more for one army. Nids will now be able to run 7 Tervigons and 4 broods of Gaunts (2 in HQ, 3 Troops, 1 Allied HQ and 1 Allied troop with another Termagaunt brood).

How about running 8 Stormravens? Play GK/BA and take the 3 you normally have, plus allied GK one in Allied FA and an Allied BA in Allied HS. Or is it only 1 codex as an ally?

You cannot ally with yourself and are limited to one allied codex.

Why does tge allies chart have a green box for the same armies? Nids it says Nids can ally with themselves.

I'm not sure if its been linked in this thread yet, but THIS is probably as close to an official confirmation of the allies matrix as we will get before the book is released.

Deadshot wrote:Why does tge allies chart have a green box for the same armies? Nids it says Nids can ally with themselves.

Isnt that because that chart that's floating around is just from some doubles tournament a while back? I don't think its the one from the actual rulebook. Allying with yourself would just be wierd.

I would deffinitely like to have it for my IG though, lets me run more tanks and not have to squadron them, or gives me access to up to 8 vet squads and 12 vendettas/valkyries if i ever feel like making an aircav list some day...

txscotch12 wrote:so not looking forward to IG / GK power combo builds

People need to seriously stop this. These will not be power builds. What makes these armies so potent is saturation. Take IG, for example, what makes them lethal is that they have a slew of vehicles and tons of heavy weapons. Now, everyone is crying "Oh no, Grey Knights with Manticores and Hydras". But think about it, now the GK player has to spend points on squishy T3 KPs in order to unlock those heavy support options. And then, without the layer upon layer of Chimeras, those Manticores basically go belly up first turn, especially with the new vehicle rules. Likewise, the IG player who is taking a Grandmaster and some Terminators to "shore up his melee weakness" is spending upward of 500-600 points that could have been spent on more tanks and more heavy weapons. Meanwhile, all of those anti-Marine weapons that were wasted overkill against puny guardsmen or 55-point transports now suddenly have ideal targets. Not only are you diluting the power of the parent list, you're making target priority that much easier for the opponent.

The only real power combos that jump out involve mixing Marine chapters. Any C:SM list could probably be improved with the addition of a Runepriest, a squad of Grey Hunters, and a unit of Longfangs. But honestly, even these don't really bother me. C:SM needs all the help they can get, so they aren't stuck playing Vulkan/Lysander cookie-cutter lists. Another caveat to this is that anyone mixing chapters will have to paint them appropriately, because you can't be expected to remember which grey marines are Blood Angels and which are Space Wolves.

SW TH/SS guys are 66 points a piece. Normal marine termies 40, BA termies 45. I can see a huge appeal to bring in a termi librarian with unleash rage, 8 or so assault termies and 5 assault marines with free razorback into a SW army.

This has no fluff justification for it what so ever, but doesn't hurt the SW players army in the least.

So BAs and SWs could never, under any circumstances, help each other on the battlefield?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Armageddon_Wars

I'm just going to use allies to bring more of my army to the table.

Grey Templar wrote:So BAs and SWs could never, under any circumstances, help each other on the battlefield?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Armageddon_Wars

And exactly where are the Tau/DE/IG/Necrons/etc., pretty much anyone other than Orks, at Armageddon that that teamup had to fight against?

Its only fluffy if everything is within fluff.


Sorry, there are just some combos, that while in one instance might have actually happened, but lets be real. If someone has brought allies where the units it contains could be fielded with the parent codex but at a higher points cost, then while you may still be fluffy in a few eyes, you will be powergaming in most everyone elses.

Both the Space Wolves and the Blood Angels have had a long-standing "friendly rivalry" with each other since the time of the Heresy. They are, however, both noted as setting aside their differences when facing a common enemy. In order for that to be true, then there must be some occasions where they are on the field together, and not just during the Armageddon conflict. After all, Great Hunts come fairly frequently, which sees the Wolves flying hither and yon across the galaxy. It would be ludicrous to think that any major battle they engage in, of the kind it is said Great Hunts involve, would not involve Marine-brothers from other Chapters.

A SW/BA army doesn't HAVE to represent a force from Armageddon.

It could easily represent some BAs and SWs who happened to be operating in the same area, bumped into each other while persuing a common foe and started working together.

Maybe they are part of an Imperial Crusade.


Table top battles don't represent historical battles all the time, they just need to fit whatever narrative the player has to hand.

Still, I think "Brothers in Arms" is given out to freely to many marines. I remember more than one occasion where two chapters almost went to war with each other over some relicts of a primarch or the danger of chapter secrets being exposed.

I really can't see Black Templars taking direct orders from Belial or Sicarius, or Ultramarines walking side-by-side with Helbrecht, who basically doesn't give a damn about what they, their chapter and their primarch stand for.

Something that just came to my mind - doesn't the Black Templar codex explicitly prohibit you from joining sides with psykers?

I wonder if it's 0-1 allies choice or could you have more than one, grey knights with sniper scouts and an avatar

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:I wonder if it's 0-1 allies choice or could you have more than one, grey knights with sniper scouts and an avatar

Not sure, but that sounds pretty terrible. Why would you do that?

Jidmah wrote:I really can't see Black Templars taking direct orders from Belial or Sicarius, or Ultramarines walking side-by-side with Helbrecht, who basically doesn't give a damn about what they, their chapter and their primarch stand for.

Something that just came to my mind - doesn't the Black Templar codex explicitly prohibit you from joining sides with psykers?

Yes, their codex specifically says "Black Templars cannot take any models as allies that have psychic powers, and cannot ally with any army that has a model with psychic powers, with the exception of the Grey Knights." (paraphrased)

So you CAN ally with BA or Ultrasmurfs, but not if they take a librarian. Same with IG, its fine unless they take a Primaris Psyker or Sanctioned Psykers.

Still can't see why so many are violently objecting to the allies rules, apart from fluff reasons. Whether you take allies or not, the points for the match remain the same. So that Draigowing you wanted to add to your BA will actually do a pretty good job of messing up your original FOC.

Given how allies don't make WHFB players TFG, I don't think it will in 40k either. The situation will simply have to work itself out over the next several months.

Razgryz wrote:

Jidmah wrote:I really can't see Black Templars taking direct orders from Belial or Sicarius, or Ultramarines walking side-by-side with Helbrecht, who basically doesn't give a damn about what they, their chapter and their primarch stand for.

Something that just came to my mind - doesn't the Black Templar codex explicitly prohibit you from joining sides with psykers?

Yes, their codex specifically says "Black Templars cannot take any models as allies that have psychic powers, and cannot ally with any army that has a model with psychic powers, with the exception of the Grey Knights." (paraphrased)

So you CAN ally with BA or Ultrasmurfs, but not if they take a librarian. Same with IG, its fine unless they take a Primaris Psyker or Sanctioned Psykers.

Still can't see why so many are violently objecting to the allies rules, apart from fluff reasons. Whether you take allies or not, the points for the match remain the same. So that Draigowing you wanted to add to your BA will actually do a pretty good job of messing up your original FOC.

Well that rule for BT will still stand so no fluff is broken. Quite simple actually.

I do agree that for the most part allies will not add much to a particular army competitivly speaking.


The only allies I can see making their way into the competitive scene will be,

Long Fangs, Grey Hunters, and Rune Priest for armies that can take it. To give them a decent melee unit and the psychic powers Rune Priests have.

Lord Commissar and Blob Squad to unlock either/or/both Vendettas, LRBTs, and Basilisks. Alternativly they might got for a heavy weapon focused platoon if they need some more long range fire support(GKs, Orks, Space Marines)

GKs. Could be either Crowe and some Purifiers along with a Rifleman dred, or Grandmaster/Libby along with some Terminators. Basically for armies that want some CC support.

Daemons and Chaos allying. Daemons could take some CSMs so they could have a few units on the field to start with, and some Icons to drop next to. Vice verse for the same reasons.


Everything else seems like it would subtract from the competitive structure of the army to take.

Personally I blame the tournament scene for all of this hype. In both 4th & 5th you could take allies. In both rule books it states that anytime you get above 2500 points you can add another force org chart. So if you really want allies in 5th just play bigger games. What really makes this a big deal is the tournament mindset that will allow you to do this in smaller games.