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The Unending wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm now more worried about the concept of 4 new species. We don't need new species - we need the current species to stop sucking. Give us a Biovore model that doesn't look like ass. Give us a plastic Gargoyle kit.

Don't give us new species.

I don't see why they can't do both. To be honest a new anti-tank species would be a great help to the Tyranids right now.

My worry with new species is that they're going to make Tyranids more generic. As GW has redone these races they've been giving every race what they're lacking, but what they lack has to do with the character and play style of the army. While Tyranids might want more anti-tank components, do "tyranids" as a fictional entity need them or are hurt by it. If you give them anti-tank units this time, the next time around will they they get some 3+ save troops carrying S4 AP5 rapid fire weapons? Cause in GW eye everyone need those.

New codex = new units. That's how it goes!
I'm really interested to see how they'll handle the nids.

The Unending wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm now more worried about the concept of 4 new species. We don't need new species - we need the current species to stop sucking. Give us a Biovore model that doesn't look like ass. Give us a plastic Gargoyle kit.

Don't give us new species.

I don't see why they can't do both. To be honest a new anti-tank species would be a great help to the Tyranids right now.

How about just new anti-tank weaponry for the species that we have? They better not skirt around the crappy units by inventing new creatures...

I think it's pretty cool that we're getting new units. Besides the Ravener and Tyrant Guard, we haven't gotten anything new in 13 years and nothing new at all since the 3rd ed codex. I welcome the change. Even if they're just new unit choices and don't really fill in any voids, it'll still be cool to have more options. I'm hoping and praying for a versatile list like IG got. I desperately want to have lots of viable ways to configure my army. That would make me a very happy man.

MilkmanAl wrote:I think it's pretty cool that we're getting new units. Besides the Ravener and Tyrant Guard, we haven't gotten anything new in 13 years and nothing new at all since the 3rd ed codex.

Remember, Robin Crudace is writing the Nid Codex, so when GW says Nids will have 4 new entries, I suspect they mean something like this:
- Spinegaunts (replacing Termagant option)
- Dakkafex (replacing Carnifex option, like Armored Sentinel)
- Screamer-Killer (replacing Carnifex option)
- Trygon (NEW!!!)

Enjoy!

To be fair, the Imperial Guard Codex got PBS, Penal Legion, Vendettas, 2 new Hellhound Varients, Armored Sentinels, and 2 new Russ variants. That is a long list of things that has not existed before that the guard got.

Why all the hate on Robin Crudace, I am not a fantasy guy, but his last 40k codex was pretty good. For a GW army book.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

MilkmanAl wrote:I think it's pretty cool that we're getting new units. Besides the Ravener and Tyrant Guard, we haven't gotten anything new in 13 years and nothing new at all since the 3rd ed codex.

Remember, Robin Crudace is writing the Nid Codex, so when GW says Nids will have 4 new entries, I suspect they mean something like this:
- Spinegaunts (replacing Termagant option)
- Dakkafex (replacing Carnifex option, like Armored Sentinel)
- Screamer-Killer (replacing Carnifex option)
- Trygon (NEW!!!)

Enjoy!

So true. IG did get a load of genuinely new stuff, though. I'm hoping that's how it goes for us! If not, I'd be happy with a 14/14/14, T10, 4 wound (yes, toughness AND armor), carries up to 48 models of any size and any number of units, Deep Strike on the first turn, assault off Deep Strike Trygon for around 200 points. Given how the Valk/Vendetta models turned out, that doesn't seem to be asking too much, right?

So IOW, you want a permission-only Apocalypse Datasheet that only only faces off against S-D weaponry? Sure, go for it. Just don't expect it in a normal Codex.

Archonate wrote:How about just new anti-tank weaponry for the species that we have? They better not skirt around the crappy units by inventing new creatures...

You don't even need that. You just remove "Can only Glance" from the VC, and your problems are solved.

Of course, 'Fexes will be BS2 in the new Codex, lose a wound, and have no options for Initiative upgrades.

I think that the 'nids codex does need a revamp to remain competitive and add variety. But codex creep aside, GW has shown that their idea of a good anti-tank unit is screamers of tzeentch... basicly expensive models with no special abilities other than meltabombs.

I see a similiar 'garbage' unit being added to the 'nids in the near future.

As for making 'nids unique, there are lots of things. For example, one fan idea I came across was that extended carapace lets you take your armor save versus any attacks with an AP up to 1 better than your armor. Thus, a genestealer with extended carapace can take his 5+ save versus an ap4 heavy bolter, but not an ap3 vengance round, and a hive tyrant could take their 3+ save versus an ap2 las cannon but not an ap1 meltagun.

Its a different mechanic, very alien to the way regular armor works, and represents the difficulty of cutting through so much of the bulky plates the tyranids are constantly growing and sheading. On the other hand, a 5+ save versus a heavy bolter is in no way game breaking, and a 3+ save versus a las cannon is in line with the 2+ 3++ THSS termie power level, plus it makes up for the pretty much complete loss of cover saves that 'nid MCs get.

As for shooting, the VC could be changed to -1 to the damage chart instead of only glancing for a -2--like it was an ap-- weapon. This also makes venom cannons work like ap-- weapons, which is what they did in 4th and 3rd ed. Thus, a glance with a VC or an ap-- weapon makes you roll with a -3, while a pen with either weapon lets you roll with a -1. Simple and still fluffy.

My (pipe) dreaming aside, I fully expect that whatever the new codex brings, I am gonna be buying more models in order to be competitive--trygons for one. This is not a bad thing, though, as my current nids have been shelved for a year already due to lack of interest thanks to 5th ed.

Why even give it some fancy rule? Just make it a regular gun. It fires shardes of corrosive poison at the speed of sound - in 2nd Ed it was a barrage weapon that slaughtered just about anything, and in the original 3rd Ed Codex it's fluff even said that it was good at penetrating vehicles - yet the rules contradicted that in the very next paragraph.

You only need to remove 'Glancing Only' from the VC, and all its problems go away. No need for more rules or arbitrary restrictions on what it can roll.

I'd like to see different HQ choices affect what sort of swarm you are fielding, to unify lists a bit more.

For example, you take a Flyrant, and you can take a unit or two of (hopefully plastic) Gargoyles as troops?

And yeah, just drop the Only Glance from the Venom Cannon.

Hey, forgive my ignorance. I have read the first page of this thread but not the next 12! I just want to add my 2c.
I have a massive Tyranid Army. About 4000 points & just recently I have become rather bored of them. I can still win with them but I just feel other Army's such as SM have such a massive advantage over them. I do love Tyranids. They were my first Army & I love the idea of mindless Aliens charging into battle. My standard list these days generally consists of loads of MC's & loads of GS, just because they kick ass I think. I don't want GS to get nurfed, as I think they got weaker with the new rending rules, but if Gaunts were made slightly more competative, (ie - WoN was part of the wargear) I would probably run them more often.
Overall I would LOVE a new Tyranid codex that was as thick as the SM one. Possibly with Biovores that were worth fielding & this Trygon I keep hearing about that GW are apparently releasing when the new Codex comes out.
If they nurf Dakka Fex's & Flyrants I will sell my entire Army...... That would SUCK!
Cheers.

Klueless wrote:I don't want GS to get nurfed, as I think they got weaker with the new rending rules

There's the problem. GW doesn't know this. They design rules in a vacuum, so no consideration was given to Genestealers when they redid the rending rules. To them, Genestealers are still this ultra-powerful unit from 4th Ed that needs to be balanced. They either don't realise or don't care that global change to Rending made Genestealers worse - they just see a unit that was 'over powered' in 4th, and will attempt to 'balance' them in the new Codex by reducing their abilities and/or raising their cost and/or making them Elites.

Oh god! ELITES! NOOOOOOOOOO!
GS are the age old troop choice for Tyranids surely?
Even back when i bought my first Space Hulk GS were in the box. No mention of Gaunts.....
I guess they are feared on the Battlefield but they aren't any better than the latest additions to the SM Assault Terminators. God they are hard to beat these days.
Talk about balance?
They are one sided to the MAXIMUM!

There is hope - the existence of the new Space Hulk might mean they keep GS as they are or even make them better, just to encourage a little bit of cross-lined synergy.

That would of course imply that GW has a modicum of business sense.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I'd like to see different HQ choices affect what sort of swarm you are fielding, to unify lists a bit more.

For example, you take a Flyrant, and you can take a unit or two of (hopefully plastic) Gargoyles as troops?

And yeah, just drop the Only Glance from the Venom Cannon.

Oh, have no fear that the new Nid HQ choices will affect the army. For example, Genestealers will probably become non-Scoring Elites. (*and* cost more, because GS are good Troops right now, and GW never swings the nerf bat lightly). But if you take a Broodlord, then you will be able to take them as Scoring Troops, as they are today.

Similarly, if you take the Red Terror Special Monster, Ravenors will be available as both Elites and Troops.

That sort of thing.

Man, does anyone else have the opinion that this HQ-choice-makes-the-army kick that GW has been on just makes for cookie cutter lists? I mean, sure, you can take stuff outside of the "design", but it's like they habd you a template and you are penalized if you wander outside of it.

grizgrin wrote:Man, does anyone else have the opinion that this HQ-choice-makes-the-army kick that GW has been on just makes for cookie cutter lists? I mean, sure, you can take stuff outside of the "design", but it's like they habd you a template and you are penalized if you wander outside of it.

*looks at Vulkan lists*

Ya think?

It could be worse though. Having to take characters to alter your army is a lesser evil. What's the greater evil? The Chaos Codex. No options, no changes when you take any sort of HQ - just wall-to-wall bland.

ShadowRocket wrote:I'm kind of tired of MCs hiding behind a fence of gaunts though to get a 4+ cover save. Its obnoxious (although I do think my local store was playing it wrong but w/e).

MCs are huge and are supposed to be targeted, theyre giant death machines for feths sake. This said, Warriors, Fexes, and Tyrants should be able to take a fair amount of hits and keep moving. They're all immune to instant death sure, but the lascannon heavy lists still tear them apart without their cover shenanigans.

You are correct, they are playing it wrong. re-read the cover rules for Monstrous Creatures. An MC only gets cover if at least 50% of the model is obscured. NONE of the other cover rules apply (not shooting through more than 2" of cover, not shooting through another unit unless that unit hides more than 50% of the model) About the only units that can effectively hide a carnifex are other MCs and occasionally warriors / zonethropes if you do it just right. Gaunts definitely do NOT give you a cover save.

Its just showing that something "that" big can't really hide that well.
http://images.clipartof.com/small/14241-Big-Green-Dinosaur-Hugging-And-Hiding-Behind-A-Tree-In-Fear-Clipart-Illustration.jpg

Bring back the Exocrine!

The Tyranid tank should return!

king88mob wrote:

You are correct, they are playing it wrong. re-read the cover rules for Monstrous Creatures. An MC only gets cover if at least 50% of the model is obscured. NONE of the other cover rules apply (not shooting through more than 2" of cover, not shooting through another unit unless that unit hides more than 50% of the model)

Or if half the unit it is with has cover (See also Tyrant with Tyrant Guard)

H.B.M.C. wrote:just wall-to-wall bland.

Agreed.

If you want to get creative with your list, you are in exactly the same position as you were before - you work with the basic list and come up with something cool.

I'd like to see one HQ for each of the major hive-fleets that will probably determine, amongst other things, which biomorphs you will be able to take on which class of units. This would give each fleet a nice distinct feeling, based upon what races it's encountered.

Off the top of my head I don't know if the Tau have encountered the 'Nids yet, but it would not surprise me to see a few Tau-genes in the new book.

I'd wonder what happend when the Tyranids start melding genes with the already genetically flexible kroot? The Vespid could also be up for Tyranid infesting.

aka_mythos wrote:I'd wonder what happend when the Tyranids start melding genes with the already genetically flexible kroot? The Vespid could also be up for Tyranid infesting.

This makes me think of Starcraft when the Zerg attack the Protoss homeworld of Aiur.

"And we have consumed them, we shall then be....

Perfect."

Do that with either Eldar or Tau and its the same principle.

But if the Tau are the "Hope for a dying universe" then do they have something to stop the Nids?

And I think they've fought nids as there is art of them doing so in a book I've seen. May have been the battle for macragge starter intro book....

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Oh, have no fear that the new Nid HQ choices will affect the army. For example, Genestealers will probably become non-Scoring Elites. (*and* cost more, because GS are good Troops right now, and GW never swings the nerf bat lightly). But if you take a Broodlord, then you will be able to take them as Scoring Troops, as they are today.

Similarly, if you take the Red Terror Special Monster, Ravenors will be available as both Elites and Troops.

That sort of thing.

I can totally see the Broodlord = 1 GS choice as Troops, but I was thinking they'll probably do something like make GS Elites, but with the 4+ save, but also give you the option of taking the 5+ save GS with Scout as a Fast Attack choice. Like Scout and Armored Sentinels.

That would be cool man... (the above)
GS all over the table....

GS all over the table that would not be able to hold objectives....

Klueless wrote:Oh god! ELITES! NOOOOOOOOOO!
GS are the age old troop choice for Tyranids surely?
Even back when i bought my first Space Hulk GS were in the box. No mention of Gaunts.....
I guess they are feared on the Battlefield but they aren't any better than the latest additions to the SM Assault Terminators. God they are hard to beat these days.
Talk about balance?
They are one sided to the MAXIMUM!

Weren't Genestealers unreleated to Tyranids in their earliest (Space Hulk, presumably) appearances?

The Genestealers always seem to be an odd off-shoot of the Tyranids. The name doesn't even fit, really, but the idea of the Genestealer cults as another insidious crack in the Imperium is a very tempting idea.

With any luck there will be a studio shake-up and the next Tyranid Codex won't be written in the current style.