Caederes wrote: You can give a Stormsurge a 4+ invulnerable save for 25 points. How anyone thinks this thing is bad is beyond me. It's a Gargantuan/Super Heavy that isn't over-powered but actually merely good for its points cost. It doesn't compare well to a Wraithknight, but what in the game actually does outside of maybe the Tau'nar?
For the guy that said his local ETC group thinks it's useless, my counter-argument is Reecius said it is solid, increasing to vicious when firing twice....hah!
Are you guessing that or did you actually see the new codex item list? I suspect it's the former and you're only using half of the available info. The shield generator for something the size of a riptide (which is what the description says) doesn't give a flat 4+ but rather a 5+. The forgeworld gargantuan one gives you a variable one depending on what damage is incoming. GW can always up and change stuff with a new codex but nothing points to a flat out 4+ for the stormsurge so far.
I think it goes without saying that I'm talking about its' interaction with the current codex, subject to change with the new codex. As it stands, it can pay 25 points for a 4+ invulnerable save which I fully expect to change in the new codex as that is downright bonkers.
Besides, the Shield Generator currently specifies you can't give it to a Riptide, and the Riptide has its' own unique Shield Generator. There is nothing about size in the Shield Generator description, nor would it apply to the Stormsurge as it is not a Riptide. It is also not a Tau'nar.
Regardless, that's what cover is for - have it standing partially in a ruin and it gets a 4+ cover save anyway. It's not like this thing will be moving that much anyway unless you are using the Pulse Blastcannon.
Also, we have another Tau'nar/pre-nerf R'Varna situation. Both of its' alternate main guns are Pulse weapons. Hello Ethereal! I also expect Storm of Fire to change in the new codex, but as it stands, this thing is pretty nasty.
They field the size forces they do because the majority of the peeons out there to die ARE conscripts. The basic guards.an who is part of the annual tithe for imperial worlds are literally the very best fighters a WORLD has to offer. If they aren't then the guy who sent them is killed for failing their duty to the emporer.
Considering most hive cities have more people in them than earth has now, and while planets are covered in them, how could they not have the bodies I spoke of?
I would be surprised as hell if they allow you to purchase a Shield Generator on this thing, since Riptides are smaller and already denied such gear. Remember that stuff is shown at the list/costs of the gear, not in the model's rules.
The picture is really hard to read so much of it i cant even guess the details but as it stands....i got a kitbash to do lol cause SCREW THAT UGLY ASS MODEL! i already made BFG's out of my Broadsides' "Fistbump" rockets because i thought they were slowed, im definitely giving this guy a massive gun full of rockets.
I like the Stormsurge, as like others have said it is probably what GC's should be (unlike the horribly undercosted Wraithknight). I will try to get one for my Tau if I can raise the money for it somehow. I probably won't get more than one, as our local tournament rules limit the points spent on LOWs to 1/3rd of the force total.
Switching gears to a bit of wishlisting, I would kind of like it if instead of Longstrike being an upgrade for a Hammerhead, he would be an HQ slot (a character vehicle, like Sammael's Sableclaw). Maybe he could have a unique version of the tank's railgun (like strength D shots or something). The Hammerhead itself needs some kind of buff, and the Tau fluff does say that Longstrike once blew the head off of an Imperial titan, so...
I could see giving him some perk like "Non-snapfire To Hit rolls of a 6 changes the Railcannon's profile to Str D" which i'd rather have than Tankhunter honestly lol.
Vineheart01 wrote: I could see giving him some perk like "Non-snapfire To Hit rolls of a 6 changes the Railcannon's profile to Str D" which i'd rather have than Tankhunter honestly lol.
Hmm. 3+ armor hurts vs small arms, and krak missiles, but is no change against plasma and melta, and is actually better against grav. It's a trade off.
The fluff says this is desined to hurt superheavies, but the rules don't match that at all. What it does seem desined to do is kill hordes at mid range, which fits enemies like orks and tyranids in the fluff. Unlike most tau units, getting closer to it makes it more dangerous (until you charge it)
MajorWesJanson wrote: Hmm. 3+ armor hurts vs small arms, and krak missiles, but is no change against plasma and melta, and is actually better against grav. It's a trade off.
The fluff says this is desined to hurt superheavies, but the rules don't match that at all. What it does seem desined to do is kill hordes at mid range, which fits enemies like orks and tyranids in the fluff. Unlike most tau units, getting closer to it makes it more dangerous (until you charge it)
Whoever designed this to be anti-superheavy is an idiot.
Caederes wrote: You can give a Stormsurge a 4+ invulnerable save for 25 points. How anyone thinks this thing is bad is beyond me. It's a Gargantuan/Super Heavy that isn't over-powered but actually merely good for its points cost. It doesn't compare well to a Wraithknight, but what in the game actually does outside of maybe the Tau'nar?
For the guy that said his local ETC group thinks it's useless, my counter-argument is Reecius said it is solid, increasing to vicious when firing twice....hah!
Are you guessing that or did you actually see the new codex item list? I suspect it's the former and you're only using half of the available info. The shield generator for something the size of a riptide (which is what the description says) doesn't give a flat 4+ but rather a 5+. The forgeworld gargantuan one gives you a variable one depending on what damage is incoming. GW can always up and change stuff with a new codex but nothing points to a flat out 4+ for the stormsurge so far.
you can take 3 support systems so unless they restrict it you definitely can. Riptide has it's own shield generator specific to it. So we will have to see
This thing isn't just solid. It's fricking insane. You people are crazy. I can't believe it's barely more than a wraithknight ran the right way for what it does. It's like a Crusader Knight titan(you know the one too OP for tourneys), but cheaper and with an iller set up of guns and shield.
I could easily see taking 3 of them in a unit(cause they do that) being so OP it is ridiculous. Buy some upgrades (imvul if allowed, ewo, VT whatevs) and bring a firebase for support and overwatch/ bubble wrap potential and someones day is fethed. No one can deepstrike .... and where do they hide. If you go first they die. The end.
It definitely wont be great against super heavies but with marker support it will wipe up anything else the game has to offer . It isn't a bad unit. From what I can see.
It indeed is not the super heavy killer it should be.
Firing everything twice will be fun though.
And it is quite flexible, good against infantry and it can do at least something against super-heavies.
But i do not know if i want one.
I like the model, but i would have preferred a model with arms.
Rule-wise it looks like a long-range monster, but it is not.
If i choose to get one, I will probably have to convert it to something with arms with the big gun shortened.
I don't think so. With current rules, as long as it fires on the same target, it uses the markerlights, no matter how many times or how many weapons.
And in regard to another subject:
Now i re-read the Ta'unar, it is very clear that the Stormsurge is designed to bridge the gap to the Ta'unar, which is the real super-heavy killer.
And they have to be different, otherwise there was no point of making two models. Stormsurge is versatile, Ta'unar is giant-slayer.
When i have to choose between them (and did not have to look at finance), i would probably go for the Ta'unar, because it adds more to the type of Tau i like to play: lots of infantry, maximised number of drones and Always a few units of kroot.
If your army is vehicle themed, the Stormsurge probably is a better choice.
If your army is crisis and broadside suit themed, it depends on what weapons the suits have.
MoD_Legion wrote: I wonder though, would firing twice mean you need twice the markerlights? That would seriously reduce the awesomeness :(.
Per the rules-as-written, yes. However, it also means that any single gun can be fired at two different targets in the same shooting phase....which is insane and makes the Stormsurge the Tau answer to MSU. The good thing as well is that the Twin-Linked Airbursting Fragmentation Projector and Twin-Linked Smart Missile System have no need for Markerlights and will devastate multiple units of light infantry and light skimmers in the one phase. The shoulder-mounted gun can maybe escape not using Markerlights but its theoretical damage output makes it one of the best choices to use Markerlights on, the gun that absolutely needs Markerlight support though is the Cluster Rocket System. BS5 with up to 8D6 (when firing twice) S5 AP5 shots at 48" is no joke, especially if you manage to tack on Ignores Cover - that's an average of 28 shots!
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ORicK wrote: I don't think so. With current rules, as long as it fires on the same target, it uses the markerlights, no matter how many times or how many weapons.
And in regard to another subject:
Now i re-read the Ta'unar, it is very clear that the Stormsurge is designed to bridge the gap to the Ta'unar, which is the real super-heavy killer.
When i have to choose between them (and did not have to look at finance), i would probably go for the Ta'unar, because it adds more to the type of Tau i like to play: lots of infantry, maximised number of drones and Always a few units of kroot.
If your army is vehicle themed, the Stormsurge probably is a better choice.
If your army is crisis and broadside suit themed, it depends on what weapons the suits have.
Unfortunately the Markerlight rules specify "as part of this Shooting attack". Unless someone can prove that firing twice at the same target counts as the same Shooting attack, using Markerlights in that way won't work with the Stormsurge...not that it significantly affects how good it is anyway.
Caederes wrote: Unfortunately the Markerlight rules specify "as part of this Shooting attack". Unless someone can prove that firing twice at the same target counts as the same Shooting attack, using Markerlights in that way won't work with the Stormsurge...not that it significantly affects how good it is anyway.
Yea this is what I thought as well, as it says 'Make the second shooting attack directly after the first has been resolved' clearly marking it as 2 separate shooting attacks.
I don't think that firing twice is a another phase or another shooting attack; but you could be right off course.
It could be a way to make the combination Stormsurge and markerlights not TOO good.
But this would only mean that you would have to take/field more markerlights.
On the other hand: we have not read the new rules (and literal tekst) of the markerlights yet.
Those have changed in every codex.
In general:
Firing twice is not an new concept in 40k and i never read anywhere that this was different from firing a weapon multiple times (or firing extra shots).
A shooting attack is any number of shots with any number of weapons from one unit onto one other unit.
Different target means a different shooting attack.
ORicK wrote: Firing twice is not an new concept in 40k and i never read anywhere that this was different from firing a weapon multiple times (or firing extra shots).
To me, firing twice is just like firing twice with rapid shot (with the target within half range). You just get 2 shots.
I would love to be wrong as it would actually make the Stormsurge bloody ridiculous.
Actually I just checked both rules and it 100% does not work that way. As I stated earlier, the Markerlight rules work "as part of this Shooting attack" and the Stabilizing Anchors specify "make the second Shooting attack". It's quite clearly a different Shooting attack each time which means the Markerlights don't carry over.
Not sure about the range on that pulse driver D weapon... still if someone were suicidal to charge it and fail, would be priceless to one-hit their carnifex and smile.
Again, sounding like a stuck record here, but I agree, Tau can already put out S5 AP5 across the board, those missiles just aren't enough.
ORicK wrote: Firing twice is not an new concept in 40k and i never read anywhere that this was different from firing a weapon multiple times (or firing extra shots).
To me, firing twice is just like firing twice with rapid shot (with the target within half range). You just get 2 shots.
Except it isn't firing twice, it is making another shooting attack. This means it can choose new targets for the second shooting attack, such as a group of infantry who just had their Transport popped by the Stormsurge in that shooting phase.
ORicK wrote: Firing twice is not an new concept in 40k and i never read anywhere that this was different from firing a weapon multiple times (or firing extra shots).
To me, firing twice is just like firing twice with rapid shot (with the target within half range). You just get 2 shots.
Except it isn't firing twice, it is making another shooting attack. Which means it can choose new targets for the second shooting attack, such as a group of infantry who just had their Transport popped by the Stormsurge in that shooting phase.
Good catch. That severely weakens an already mediocre platform even more. You either need to take your second shot at BS 3 or have tons of ML support.
Edit
I don't think a lot of people realize it's base gun is the D weapon and boy oh boy is it useless. So you need to pay 25 points for the Str 10 Ap 2 one. You shoot two of those if your lucky to deploy. Even if you do no shooting twice in the first turn. Then you need a multitude of upgrades from shields to EWO ect and this things price jumps up extremely high. Now it needs double the amount of markerlight support than we thought it would. So either its going to be less effective than you imagine or its goign to be more expensive to support.
You can get two Riptide's with Ion Accelerators and put out nearly as much firepower while being more agile and they need less ML support than this thing.
Every time we learn something new it's worse and worse to field one of these things. It might actually hinder your armies efficiency.
ORicK wrote: Firing twice is not an new concept in 40k and i never read anywhere that this was different from firing a weapon multiple times (or firing extra shots).
To me, firing twice is just like firing twice with rapid shot (with the target within half range). You just get 2 shots.
Except it isn't firing twice, it is making another shooting attack. This means it can choose new targets for the second shooting attack, such as a group of infantry who just had their Transport popped by the Stormsurge in that shooting phase.
This is correct per the rules for both Markerlights and Stabilizing Anchors. I also think being able to shoot at potentially eight different targets with four weapons in the same shooting phase is way better than twice the shooting at the same targets, especially in light of the Gladius and other popular MSU builds.
ORicK wrote: Firing twice is not an new concept in 40k and i never read anywhere that this was different from firing a weapon multiple times (or firing extra shots).
To me, firing twice is just like firing twice with rapid shot (with the target within half range). You just get 2 shots.
Except it isn't firing twice, it is making another shooting attack. Which means it can choose new targets for the second shooting attack, such as a group of infantry who just had their Transport popped by the Stormsurge in that shooting phase.
Good catch. That severely weakens an already mediocre platform even more. You either need to take your second shot at BS 3 or have tons of ML support.
Edit
I don't think a lot of people realize it's base gun is the D weapon and boy oh boy is it useless. So you need to pay 25 points for the Str 10 Ap 2 one. You shoot two of those if your lucky to deploy. Even if you do no shooting twice in the first turn. Then you need a multitude of upgrades from shields to EWO ect and this things price jumps up extremely high. Now it needs double the amount of markerlight support than we thought it would. So either its going to be less effective than you imagine or its goign to be more expensive to support.
You can get two Riptide's with Ion Accelerators and put out nearly as much firepower while being more agile and they need less ML support than this thing.
Every time we learn something new it's worse and worse to field one of these things. It might actually hinder your armies efficiency.
Lol. It's 15 points for the upgraded gun and if you think the Shotgun is useless you're actually just stupid. Something that shoots two Strength 9 AP5/3 (blurry image) large blasts at 30" or two Strength 10 AP1 small blasts at 20" is not "useless", nor are the two solid Destroyer AP1 shots at 10" if you actually work out that most people's answers to this thing will rely on getting close to it and you can freely activate or deactivate the Stabilizing Anchors to reposition it as necessary and force your opponent into a bad situation. And don't even get me started on what the Shotgun will do to anyone that gets close to it - even the 20" or 30" ranges - when it is firing twice. If you can't make that gun work on a super-durable model that moves 12" you should not be playing Warhammer 40,000.
The price of the model doesn't jump up "extremely high", if you give it the TL ABF, VT, EWO and SG you end up spending 55 points to turn a decent unit into a nightmare for any list that Deep Strikes or uses flyers....which involves a huge amount of competitive armies. Interceptor and optional Skyfire on a Gargantuan Creature with this many guns that can potentially shoot twice is hilariously powerful. Even if you don't fork out for the VT and SG, if you stick it in a Ruin it will get a 4+ cover save. Doubling Markerlights is not as big of a deal as you make out either seeing as the TL Smart Missiles and TL ABF don't need any Markerlights, leaving just the Destroyer Missiles and two primary guns. Your average Tau list will have 8-10 Markerlights, and generally speaking you will shoot the Missiles at the same target as the Shotgun/Demolisher Cannon to guarantee huge damage on a target. Realistically this means you will use 4 tokens on the Shotgun/Demolisher Cannon + Missiles and 4 tokens on the Missiles themselves. This might seem bad but if you factor in the squad potential of the Stormsurges it actually becomes ridiculous, and the Markerlight usage listed above is based on either going to Ballistic Skill 5 or using Ignores Cover. It's not the most ideal scenario but if you ask anyone that plays against a Gladius what they want, they will tell you being able to shoot at up to eight targets per turn without factoring in the missiles is better than having to double down on Markerlights.
Two Riptides with Ion Accelerators don't have comparable firepower to a Stormsurge with the basic Shotgun and TL ABF actually. If we assume the Stormsurge is firing twice, you're looking at this comparison; the Riptides put out 6 BS3 S7 AP2 shots or 2 S8 AP2 Large Blasts (Gets Hot) at 72", as well as 8 TL BS3 S5 AP5 Ignores Cover shots via their Smart Missile Systems (often a weapon of choice for the IA Riptide). The Stormsurge with Shotgun puts out 4 S9 AP5/3 Large Blasts at 30"/4 S10 AP1 Small Blasts at 20"/4 BS3 Destroyer AP1 shots at 10", 8D6 (averaging 28 shots) BS3 S5 AP5 shots, 8 TL BS3 S5 AP5 Ignores Cover shots, 2 S4 AP5 Ignores Cover Barrage Large Blasts and 4 BS3 S8 AP1 shots (these are one-use-only). And that Stormsurge variant is 365 points compared to the 370 point pair of Ion Accelerator Riptides. You're totally wrong here.
The Stormsurge moves an average of 12" a turn slowed by terrain, the Riptides move an average of 13" a turn not slowed by terrain. Considering the former wants to be in cover if it doesn't have a Shield Generator, this isn't a massive difference. Durability wise it's also a tight one; the Riptides have 10 Wounds at Toughness 6, 2+ armour, 5+ invulnerable and they lose half of their total effectiveness when they suffer 5 Wounds. The Stormsurge has 8 Wounds at Toughness 6, 3+ armour, 5+ Feel No Pain, virtual immunity to Poison/Sniper weapons, immunity to Instant Death, doesn't lose effectiveness until it loses all 8 Wounds and can easily make up for the lack of an invulnerable save by having one of its toes in cover. As for Markerlights, Riptides specifically want Ballistic Skill 5 and Ignores Cover every time they shoot at a single target to make their Ion Accelerator reliable which means 4 tokens per Riptide. As I worked out above, the Stormsurge needs roughly 8 to go at full effectiveness as unlike the Riptide it has the sheer weight of shots to be able to confidently sacrifice either Ignores Cover or Ballistic Skill 5 depending on the weapon being fired.
Your even assuming you can set up and fire. The Riptides are firing maximum firepower turn one and can always use their maximum firepower. You also can't shoot two shots the turn you set up. So if your forced to move for any reason your firepower is being drastically affected.
If this thing can set up and sit there until the next shooting round sure, but 40k is more mobile than ever I just can't see that happening. This thing requires a ton of support for it to work. It just seems to need too ideal of conditions to pull it off. If something does go wrong there is a ton of eggs in one basket with this thing.
Are you guessing that or did you actually see the new codex item list? I suspect it's the former and you're only using half of the available info. The shield generator for something the size of a riptide (which is what the description says) doesn't give a flat 4+ but rather a 5+. The forgeworld gargantuan one gives you a variable one depending on what damage is incoming. GW can always up and change stuff with a new codex but nothing points to a flat out 4+ for the stormsurge so far.
The Riptide's Nova Reactor is 5++, not the Shield Generator (which it doesn't possess). No reason to think it'll be 5++ to Stormsurge, as it doesn't possess a Nova Reactor
Gamgee wrote: Your even assuming you can set up and fire. The Riptides are firing maximum firepower turn one and can always use their maximum firepower. You also can't shoot two shots the turn you set up. So if your forced to move for any reason your firepower is being drastically affected.
If you lose 8-24 T6 wounds with a 3+/4++/5+++in two turns, I think you had bigger problems.
If they can't get a invulnerable save from support systems (unlikely), use a Skyshield Landing Pad and use it as your personal firing platform.
To take out one Stormsurge, assuming it is coming from SM, you would be looking at ~53 S4 shots, ~38 S7 shots, or ~34 S8-10 shots. Not impossible, but not something to expect on the first turn. This is also assuming that all the shots ignore its 3+ armor and can only take a 4+ cover/invulnerable.
Gamgee wrote: Your even assuming you can set up and fire. The Riptides are firing maximum firepower turn one and can always use their maximum firepower. You also can't shoot two shots the turn you set up. So if your forced to move for any reason your firepower is being drastically affected.
If you lose 8-24 T6 wounds with a 3+/4++/5+++in two turns, I think you had bigger problems.
If they can't get a invulnerable save from support systems (unlikely), use a Skyshield Landing Pad and use it as your personal firing platform.
To take out one Stormsurge, assuming it is coming from SM, you would be looking at ~53 S4 shots, ~38 S7 shots, or ~34 S8-10 shots. Not impossible, but not something to expect on the first turn.
It's not a matter of wounds. All it takes is a single unit to tie it up in melee. So your going to want to move as often as possible. As a Tau and FSE player all I do is move around to survive. I just can't see one of our greatest strengths playing well with this things rules. You'll have to hold a line and pray to god nothing can get to you and if something goes wrong you have no redundancy or backups in your plan.
It's just too niche of a plan for me.
It's sitting in that weird line of not being mobile enough and not being heavy hitting enough to justify its static position like the Ta'unar can.
Edit
Until I see battle reports of its effectiveness I'm going to be unconvinced and not letting it hit my table. Granted a lot can change between now and the new rules in the codex. So assuming it's similar to the one we have though? Hard to see it being all that good. It's not bad and it will likely never be among our worst units, but it doesn't deserve the hype it's getting.
Thank god I just found a buyer for my Tau army, otherwise I would have probably ended up divorced after buying 3 of each of all the new Tau stuff coming out.
Nilok wrote:If they can't get a invulnerable save from support systems (unlikely), use a Skyshield Landing Pad and use it as your personal firing platform.
Thus denying any reason to use the Blastcannon, as you want to be mobile with that one.
Without the details of equipment like marker lights, suit systems etc in the new Codex - difficult to assess how broken this will be
The Riptide and the like might all be G creatures with all those massive advantages. Or they might not................ Given the level of power that the recent Tau FW model represented however - it may be pretty horrific - Eldar style.
Didn't someone say there was going to be a vehicle as well as the (IMO) mostly horrible looking suits.
Nilok wrote:If they can't get a invulnerable save from support systems (unlikely), use a Skyshield Landing Pad and use it as your personal firing platform.
Thus denying any reason to use the Blastcannon, as you want to be mobile with that one.
You wouldn't use the Blastcannon with this tactic, just as you wouldn't use a Punisher LR as a back field artillery.
Again, they have a shield generator in the picture mounted on the left missile pod, with a different support system on the other side. I will be very suprised if it doesn't have access to the shield generator.
Gamgee wrote: I expect a a lot of things to be more expensive for it.
Possibly, but we shall see. Tau have always been synergistic and their power often comes from other units and their interactions together (Aun'va + O'vesa, can't kill me now). I'm expecting that to stay the same.
And for you edited statement, if Ethereals stay exactly the same, these will be very stupid with Storm of Fire.
Unless the support systems cost a crazy amount more for everything else, I highly doubt the upgrades for the Stormsurge are going to be super expensive.
It looks like it purchases systems from the same wargear list as everyone else.
In regard to markerlights: the new markerlight rules are not in yet, so the theory regarding shooting twice is still theory only.
In regard to Stormsurge: you can give it a 5+ cover save by putting a fire warrior or kroot unit in front of it, which also shields it from something that wants to lock the Stormsurge in close combat.
If that even is against it's will by the way, it's still a gargantuam creature that can crush if it wants to.
ORicK wrote: I don't think we get a box.
I think we get these 2 books (Sons of Corax and Shas'O).
I understand that.
I'm saying that the existence of these two books, now, is what lends credence to the rumors of the box. With Sanctus Reach/Stormclaw and Leviathan/Deathstorm, they came shortly after/around the timeframe of one of the two books being updated.
What i mean is that i would like it to be true, but i do not expect it to be true.
Reaons why i think that:
A box usually gets into the rumour circuit and i would expect more information regarding it by now.
Writers more easily and more frequent talk about future books, which leads to rumours.
And allthough GW boxes usually hold marines and Raven guard are marines, i just do not expect GW to make cheap Tau models in a campaign box.
Are you guessing that or did you actually see the new codex item list? I suspect it's the former and you're only using half of the available info. The shield generator for something the size of a riptide (which is what the description says) doesn't give a flat 4+ but rather a 5+. The forgeworld gargantuan one gives you a variable one depending on what damage is incoming. GW can always up and change stuff with a new codex but nothing points to a flat out 4+ for the stormsurge so far.
The Riptide's Nova Reactor is 5++, not the Shield Generator (which it doesn't possess). No reason to think it'll be 5++ to Stormsurge, as it doesn't possess a Nova Reactor
The nova reactor is the power source, it doesnt give the shield.
The Riptide Shield Generator does. Its literally a shield generator thats been augmented to cover the larger body, which is why its a 5++ instead of a 4++ because its stretched so thin to cover the entire suit. The only mention to the Nova Reactor is drawing excess power to further its potential (nova charge).
Its not unlikely that we can get an invul on the stormsurge. But i would expect it to be a higher cost, like stim packs on a riptide, and not be a 4++.
Yaknow theres something about the Stormsurge that got me thinking. Riptides are a solo unit, but this behemoth is a squadron? Potential for Riptide squads?!? Ohh that'd be epic as hell since it would free up some heavily overused Elite slots!
A sort of energy shielding instead of a physical barrier would be very tau. It would also reduce weight allowing them to be easily positioned, which would fit better with the tau way of war (mobile, fast, reactive).
I think pretty much everyone is going to kitbash the hell out of it lol.
I intend to give it arms, depending on the price of the model i'll either buy a riptide and modify it or buy the normal model and ebay some riptide arms. Rather than the Broadside fistbump rocket treatment im going to do the same thing i did for them: BFG OF ROCKETS!
Basically, i am going to turn it into a larger one of these:
Vineheart01 wrote: I think pretty much everyone is going to kitbash the hell out of it lol.
I intend to give it arms, depending on the price of the model i'll either buy a riptide and modify it or buy the normal model and ebay some riptide arms. Rather than the Broadside fistbump rocket treatment im going to do the same thing i did for them: BFG OF ROCKETS!
Basically, i am going to turn it into a larger one of these:
Spoiler:
Agreed, someone will have an after market arms kit or conversion eventually. I own 6000 points of Tau painted up already, I can wait on the Stormsurge.
Vineheart01 wrote: I think pretty much everyone is going to kitbash the hell out of it lol.
I intend to give it arms, depending on the price of the model i'll either buy a riptide and modify it or buy the normal model and ebay some riptide arms. Rather than the Broadside fistbump rocket treatment im going to do the same thing i did for them: BFG OF ROCKETS!
Basically, i am going to turn it into a larger one of these:
Spoiler:
I'm currently looking at the Destroid Phalanx as a good proxy/scratch build core for the Stormsurge.
HAHA $150 bucks for a single suit? I think I will simply double it and buy the FW model. More bang for the buck. With that price point I don't think we will see too many of them on the average table top. Its an ugly suit too. For about $50 less I can see it, but I have enough to paint anyway. So since this came out in the white dwarf does that mean the dex will be on the shelf this weekend?
Col. Dash wrote: HAHA $150 bucks for a single suit? I think I will simply double it and buy the FW model. More bang for the buck. With that price point I don't think we will see too many of them on the average table top. Its an ugly suit too. For about $50 less I can see it, but I have enough to paint anyway.
Ehhh...
The KX139 from FW is 250 GBP for the body and weapons.
If they cease to offer the bundle for 250 GBP, you are looking at 130 GBP for the body, 60 GBP for the Pulse Ordnance Multi-Driver(the backmounted weapon), and 30 GBP per Tri-Axis Ion Cannon(the arm mounts). Additionally that pricing will likely extend to the options that they have talked about giving it(including one which has been sighted of it having Fusion weapons for the arm mounts)--and it does not include the price of what almost assuredly will be the location for the rules in the next Imperial Armour book which is slated to be Mechanicus v. Tau.
Currency conversion, as of now, puts you at $379 for a KX139 via FW's "bundle"(which actually seems to come out a dollar or two HIGHER than the individual components)--and that's for a single LOW slot.
For $300 you can get two Stormsurges and field them as a single LOW.
So since this came out in the white dwarf does that mean the dex will be on the shelf this weekend?
...No?
Generally, Codex releases are a few weeks in.
So far we know the following schedule:
October 3rd preorder for Stormsurge
October 10th release for Stormsurge, preorder for Ghostkeel.
October 17th release for Ghostkeel, preorder for ????
For a little more you can get a Ta'unar. This things getting worse all the time. Now in the clear images we know the pulse shotgun is AP 5 at its longest range and not even 3.
This suits starting to fall below mediocre pretty quickly.
The bundle for the Forge World suit is the exact same price as buying the body and weapons separately.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gamgee wrote: For a little more you can get a Ta'unar. This things getting worse all the time. Now in the clear images we know the pulse shotgun is AP 5 at its longest range and not even 3.
This suits starting to fall below mediocre pretty quickly.
By 'for a little more' you mean over double the price coastwise and almost double the points right?
ImAGeek wrote: The bundle for the Forge World suit is the exact same price as buying the body and weapons separately.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gamgee wrote: For a little more you can get a Ta'unar. This things getting worse all the time. Now in the clear images we know the pulse shotgun is AP 5 at its longest range and not even 3.
This suits starting to fall below mediocre pretty quickly.
By 'for a little more' you mean over double the price coastwise and almost double the points right?
i agree with him... If you factor in the fact that you can take units of three of these (Good old money grabbing GW), the option of two stormsurges or one Tau'nar I think is pretty obvious. Plus on aesthetics alone I'd get the FW suit, that thing is gorgeous...
ImAGeek wrote: The bundle for the Forge World suit is the exact same price as buying the body and weapons separately.
Maybe in GBP, but currency conversion actually had them slightly different as of the time I posted that.
$90.9492 for the Pulse Ordnance Multi-Driver, another $90.9492 for the pair of Tri-Axis Ion Cannon, and $197.042 for the main body.
That comes out to $378.9404 for individual components.
You're looking at $378.902 for the "bundle".
When I made my post, however, it was showing $379 for the bundle while the individual components totaled out at $377.
Additionally, if you're in a state that GW has a shop in they now collect sales tax because of the way a lot of ecommerce laws have been worded so if you have a physical presence a company collects sales tax(for example, Amazon collects sales tax in my state because they have a warehouse).
If i had to pick between a squad of 2 Stormsurges (even kitbashed to have a proper damn gun and not stubs) or a Ta'unar, i'd much MUCH rather the Ta'unar because 1) the model is just sooooo sexy looking and 2) massive str d template at table range.....
Yes, speaking from maximum value per cost perspective, the duo stormsurges would be better because thats 16 wounds as oppose to 10 and while theyre not T9 theyre still T6, which is tough enough to make those extra wounds better than less wounds with more durability. Not by much imho though.
Stormsurge is a mediocre model with mediocre rules and price. Honestly, I would have preferred a quad-walker, or at least some arms. The Tau'nar, on the other hand, is good looking and worth it's points.
Sidstyler wrote: For $150 I think I'd rather just buy more crisis suits.
ding ding ding, we have a winner. Or some of the new firewarriors. Or a new video card. Or a new tablet. Or a roundtrip flight to many locations. Or. Or. Or.
Yeah, it's a pretty model but it's not $150 pretty.
Sidstyler wrote: For $150 I think I'd rather just buy more crisis suits.
ding ding ding, we have a winner. Or some of the new firewarriors. Or a new video card. Or a new tablet. Or a roundtrip flight to many locations. Or. Or. Or.
Yeah, it's a pretty model but it's not $150 pretty.
This is why I advocate using Bandai 1/100 Gundam or 1/100 Macross Destroid kits for Tau giant robots. Their prices are between $60-$20 for a 7" model, perfect for conversions.
Sidstyler wrote: For $150 I think I'd rather just buy more crisis suits.
ding ding ding, we have a winner. Or some of the new firewarriors. Or a new video card. Or a new tablet. Or a roundtrip flight to many locations. Or. Or. Or.
Yeah, it's a pretty model but it's not $150 pretty.
This is why I advocate using Bandai 1/100 Gundam or 1/100 Macross Destroid kits for Tau giant robots. Their prices are between $60-$20 for a 7" model, perfect for conversions.
I'd absolutely love to see a MG 1/100 Heavy Arms Custom with some Tau flair on the table. If you swapped out the gatling guns for some Tau pulse/ion weaponry it seems like a perfect fit for the Stormsurge.
What worries me is the size and price. In an earlier pic from last week, it said the new suit is riptide sized (but obviously a bit bulkier). Other lords of war kits are MUCH bigger for the same or cheaper. If there isn't a very big difference in both bulk and height between the stormsurge and riptide, the relative value of the kit is crap (and that isn't taking into account the value compared with other companies' offering).
This is why I advocate using Bandai 1/100 Gundam or 1/100 Macross Destroid kits for Tau giant robots. Their prices are between $60-$20 for a 7" model, perfect for conversions.
I'd absolutely love to see a MG 1/100 Heavy Arms Custom with some Tau flair on the table. If you swapped out the gatling guns for some Tau pulse/ion weaponry it seems like a perfect fit for the Stormsurge.
I would suggest the MG Heavy Arms Ver. Ka
It is built on the MG Heavy Arms Custom body, but is designed after the original Heavy Arms with a much more intimidating gatling gun.
Spoiler:
Though I do wish they released the Igel weapons pack for it just to turn the missile spam up to 12.
Stormsurge doesn't deserve its name. Limpstorm. Little MLE. Mediocre. Ect. My little nicknames for it. I call it little MLE because it reminds me of the french designed 1897 MLE "artillery" of WW1 fame/infamy. Before WW1 broke out they insisted heavy artillery and weapons were useless for the mobile combat they would fight so they in theory designed the perfect field gun of rapid fire anti infantry. If the wars were fought like Napoleon had it would be a very good gun, but as it is it turned out to be very crappy for the conditions that soon followed the outbreak of WW1. It's shells were often not strong enough to get to the troops in the bunkers and just contributed heavily to making no mans land a pile of muck and it shot up the ground. Not only that but it had limited traversal and was a direct fire weapon so it couldn't fire like a typical artillery could in an arc. The French had ordered so many of them they had no choice but to try and use them and fire massive artillery barrages that had little effect due to how light the rounds being fired were. Propaganda tried to spin how the war was being won by them, but we all know how well it turned out after the fact.
This reminds me of the very same thing. It was all sold up before coming out as some amazing artillery piece and anti-tank gun. Now some people have proxied it and it dies fast, and doesn't contribute much in the way of firepower or points efficient. It's a joke. Now if the fighting conditions are absolutely perfect like this thing was designed for it will do its job well, but that's a big if. When has any game ever gone perfectly?
So it's little MLE to me. They even tried to mount the damn gun on tanks as an anti-tank gun and it was useless there as well. So it'll be little MLE for me. Or limpstorm depending on my mood.
Okay, so the new Stormsurge isn't the Great White Hope of Tau players everywhere. You know what else isn't? The new codex, because we don't know anything about it yet other than the fact that it will contain the Stormsurge and some nice new pictures of the new infantry and battlesuits. In short, wait until we get rules spoilered for us from reliable sources before saying the unit is garbage. For all we know is has just as broken an equipment selection as the current Riptide.
According to Lythrandire Biehrellian's vehicle/mc design rules, the Stormsurge (not including the cluster missiles and pulseweapon) is 321 points (I used the cost of hunterkiller missiles for the destroyers)
39 points seems fair the the cluster missiles and pulse shotgun.
But I forgot, something has to be OP to the max for it to be good...
And the only way the upgrades will cost more for this thing is if they make the costs super crazy for every other unit as they purchase from the general Support Systems list, not some new one that's only for it.
Riptide pays more for some upgrades and can't take some. It's not unprecedented this thing could be hamstrung further by poor options and/or expensive upgrades.
Like how the stim injectors were the same for Riptides as everything else? I understand that you think this thing is the bees knees, but a lot of people don't. And don't try to claim that everything will be the same cost, because YOU DON'T KNOW.
Has to be some hell of a formation to make this thing worth taking. Even then it would be the formation being that powerful as a whole not the little mle.
That is an absolute ton of shooting when stabilizers are down, assuming it can fire more than 2 weapons of course.
Even the D gun, 2 shots with a 22" threat range. 4 at 10, but you'd be crazy to end your movement 10" from that thing.
It doesn't get double shots until its next shooting turn and has to stay still the entire next movement phase. Good luck. It can always move but then your not getting double shots. So turn 1 you have to declare your stabilizing and not move then you can shoot once in the shooting phase. Next turn if you don't move and make it to the shooting phase of turn two you can shoot twice, but as has been discovered both shots don't benefit from one set of ML's on a target. This is because the second attack lets you choose up to four new targets and so needs even more ML support to make it work. Or your second shot will be at BS 3.
It's in no way worth it to me when I can have two Riptides zooming all over laying waste to stuff with an IA from turn one.
Yeah, its a neat idea, but the implementation is bad. The stabilizers make it immobile, and in a DS-droppod-grav gun meta it will die before it gets double shots.
vitae_drinker wrote: Very true. It would be neat if the Tau got Sept Tactics like Space Marines. Choosing what Sept your Tau are from gives you different rules that apply.
That applies ot all factions:
Craftworld tactics
Order tactics
Regimental Doctrine
Forgeworld Tactics
Klan tactics
etc etc
For whatever every stupid reason only Marines get it............
vitae_drinker wrote: Yeah, its a neat idea, but the implementation is bad. The stabilizers make it immobile, and in a DS-droppod-grav gun meta it will die before it gets double shots.
Which only becomes an issue if EWO goes away. A 3-man team of broadsides and riptides usually does well against droppods.
Just as well assume EWO will still be a thing since we don't know any changes yet.
vitae_drinker wrote: Unless it gets three support systems for free, it will still be mediocre at best.
Read page 70 in the current Codex: Tau Empire.
Each Battlesuit comes standard with Multi-Trackers and Blacksun Filters, as it stands right now with no mention of it in Wargear.
Who is to say what the Stormsurge and Ghostkeel will come with as standard?
Gamgee wrote: Has to be some hell of a formation to make this thing worth taking. Even then it would be the formation being that powerful as a whole not the little mle.
So, there could be a fair amount of synergy we are unaware of. There may not. Point is, we don't know.
However, balance of probabilities based off of lots of prior codexes, there will be internal synergies and super-group synergies. Plus, y'know, Marker lights.
After looking over the rules, I definitely think that the Stormsurge was designed to be taken in squadrons. On its own, a single Stormsurge is decent, but not hard to deal with. But once you take two or even three, the become exponentially better. You can stagger the anchorings so you always have firepower going out. You can set them up to limit deep striking and drop pods. Since they're a single unit, they all benefit from markerlights, meaning all three could ignore cover or be BS5 for the cost of 2 markerlights.
Honestly until we see support systems and what the special rules for the ballistic suit actually are, we can't fairly judge the Stormsurge yet. Is it the stupid OP monster we expected after the Wraith Knight? No, absolutely not (and thank God for that). Is it the worst unit GW has ever created? No, absolutely not. Thus far, it is a middle tier LoW with potential to be better depending on what support is available to it.
The sky hasn't fallen yet, let's all relax a bit before declaring 7th Tau utter trash.
Yeah, have there really been any BAD full-size codices since the start of the year? I mean, Codex: Harlequins seems to be the only miss and it's more of an Eldar Allies Codex than anything else. The Tau should be fine. Maybe not Eldar/Necrons/Space Marines good, but certainly not Blood Angels/Orks/Grey Knights bad.
vitae_drinker wrote: Unless it gets three support systems for free, it will still be mediocre at best.
Read page 70 in the current Codex: Tau Empire. Each Battlesuit comes standard with Multi-Trackers and Blacksun Filters, as it stands right now with no mention of it in Wargear.
Who is to say what the Stormsurge and Ghostkeel will come with as standard?
Actually, as stupid as it sounds and i really hope im wrong, the Stormsurge says "...a ballistics suit, not a battle suit..." which i could see potential rule-sharks using to deny it access to multitrackers/bsfilters. Which, if its not flatout included in the suit lists like it is in the current codex, i can totally see people doing just to be a dick. Thats why i avoid tournament-style players because they dont play the game, they spam cheese and rule-shark you to victory more than anything else.
Logic would dictate it comes with those two wargear, even though GMC by default doesnt care about multitrackers anyway but bsfilters could be annoying to not have. But as we know, people love to rule-shark this game and throw logic out the window, even if RAW makes absolutely no sense and is unusable.
vitae_drinker wrote: Very true. It would be neat if the Tau got Sept Tactics like Space Marines. Choosing what Sept your Tau are from gives you different rules that apply.
... For whatever every stupid reason only Marines get it............
Thats because Imperials get everything first, whether they deserve it or not because yaknow posterboy faction. Its yet another rule that fits the orks WAY more than any other faction if only one faction was going to get it, yet SM got it and orks got the shaft. I'd be surprised if we get anything other than an updated Farsight Supp. for yet another 55 bucks and probably just as different as the current one is to the current dex, if not less different. Oh, oh! and of course a Stormsurge model with IC rules! Dont forget that!
Regarding the rules of this thing, i still like the rules. Like others have pointed out its not an impossible to kill model, but its not exactly a cakewalk either. On top of that, it frees up my options in my normal lists. I typically run heavy RoF lists instead of heavy damage, this thing can effectively remove 1/4 of my army's RoF demand and replace it with heavy guns such as hammerheads, ta'unar, or perhaps a new heavy gun. Kinda curious what the stealthtide has, but unless they FINALLY remove the Stealthsuits All Have Bursts By Default crap i'd be shocked if it wasnt a high RoF, moderate str/ap gun.
Would be nice if they allowed them to pick and choose like crisis suit. And maybe moved them to FA or troops. And dropped their ludicrous price-tag at least a bit.
Current stealth suits have two things that really tick me off about them, even though i love the models and i still use them alot.
1) Cost. They are point for point insanely weak compared to crisis suits and their stealth is only situationally good, especially since theyre sitting in charge range all the time. When i field them they either get lucky and live all game due to 2+ cover, or die really quick due to literally anything remotely good in melee charging them, bad danger tests with JSJ tactics, or an ignores cover gun. Im fine with dealing less damage per point than crisis suits for the stealth tradeoff but right now because of their weapon options they are around HALF as strong as crisis suits and cost MORE. Makes no sense. Full weapons access would fix this.
2) Elite slot. Even if they get a price cut and/or true weapon access, they still suffer from crisis suits/riptides/probably the stealthtide being in the same slot. No matter how you balance them, one or the other will win and leave the loser in the dust. If they dropped stealthsuits to 18pts each with a required weapon purchase and optional support purchase, you might never see crisis suits again except in farsight bombs or bodyguards. Move them to FA and restrict them from certain weapons, but give the entire squad the ability to take the weapons they CAN get (im thinking no SMS/MP options).
Gotta admit, that'd be funny to have a squad of 6 stealth suits with flamers lol even if it wouldnt be that amazing (please give us heavy flamers....lol)
vitae_drinker wrote: Unless it gets three support systems for free, it will still be mediocre at best.
Read page 70 in the current Codex: Tau Empire.
Each Battlesuit comes standard with Multi-Trackers and Blacksun Filters, as it stands right now with no mention of it in Wargear.
Who is to say what the Stormsurge and Ghostkeel will come with as standard?
Actually, as stupid as it sounds and i really hope im wrong, the Stormsurge says "...a ballistics suit, not a battle suit..." which i could see potential rule-sharks using to deny it access to multitrackers/bsfilters. Which, if its not flatout included in the suit lists like it is in the current codex, i can totally see people doing just to be a dick. Thats why i avoid tournament-style players because they dont play the game, they spam cheese and rule-shark you to victory more than anything else.
Logic would dictate it comes with those two wargear, even though GMC by default doesnt care about multitrackers anyway but bsfilters could be annoying to not have. But as we know, people love to rule-shark this game and throw logic out the window, even if RAW makes absolutely no sense and is unusable.
Well, as it stands right now?
Yeah. It would be a totally viable stance to take since the Stormsurge's wargear does not include "Stormsurge Ballistics Suit" like the other suits do.
Remember though that the reason I specifically mentioned that page number is that it lists the types of suits. The Stormsurge, in a new codex, will likely be under that same listing of suits.
Current stealth suits have two things that really tick me off about them, even though i love the models and i still use them alot.
1) Cost. They are point for point insanely weak compared to crisis suits and their stealth is only situationally good, especially since theyre sitting in charge range all the time. When i field them they either get lucky and live all game due to 2+ cover, or die really quick due to literally anything remotely good in melee charging them, bad danger tests with JSJ tactics, or an ignores cover gun. Im fine with dealing less damage per point than crisis suits for the stealth tradeoff but right now because of their weapon options they are around HALF as strong as crisis suits and cost MORE. Makes no sense. Full weapons access would fix this.
2) Elite slot. Even if they get a price cut and/or true weapon access, they still suffer from crisis suits/riptides/probably the stealthtide being in the same slot. No matter how you balance them, one or the other will win and leave the loser in the dust. If they dropped stealthsuits to 18pts each with a required weapon purchase and optional support purchase, you might never see crisis suits again except in farsight bombs or bodyguards. Move them to FA and restrict them from certain weapons, but give the entire squad the ability to take the weapons they CAN get (im thinking no SMS/MP options).
Gotta admit, that'd be funny to have a squad of 6 stealth suits with flamers lol even if it wouldnt be that amazing (please give us heavy flamers....lol)
Pretty sure that at least number two concern will be addressed with the new book, since you'll be taking some sort of Tau Decurion with formations, so something being elite/troops/heavy is largely irrelevant. Pretty sure they'll get a small buff from the formation too, making them better. That said, all of that applies to Crisis suits and Riptides too.
Oh yea definitely. Following the trend of 7th ed books were bound to get a few formations or so. I just hope our formation-wide bonuses arent limited purely to better shooting. New rules, access to rules we normally cant get/cant get on most units, or special unit squad sizes would be neat.
Gamgee wrote: Riptide pays more for some upgrades and can't take some. It's not unprecedented this thing could be hamstrung further by poor options and/or expensive upgrades.
IIRC, the cost for the Riptide's are also on its entry page, and not as a part of the wargear list.
The Stormsurge does not have any Support Systems listed separately on its entry page for a different cost, and references the Support Systems section of the wargear list. It's safe to assume that its options from said list cost the same as everyone elses.
Riptide is listed the same as any suit, and the wargear has footnotes for riptide specific restrictions and/or cost hykes. The riptide entry itself does not have any options other than Shielded Missile Drones (since it lacks the other drones for an option) and Ion Accel. swap // secondary weapon swap.
Vineheart01 wrote: Riptide is listed the same as any suit, and the wargear has footnotes for riptide specific restrictions and/or cost hykes. The riptide entry itself does not have any options other than Shielded Missile Drones (since it lacks the other drones for an option) and Ion Accel. swap // secondary weapon swap.
I just looked and this is correct. Point invalid Kingsley.
Gamgee wrote: Riptide pays more for some upgrades and can't take some. It's not unprecedented this thing could be hamstrung further by poor options and/or expensive upgrades.
IIRC, the cost for the Riptide's are also on its entry page, and not as a part of the wargear list.
The Stormsurge does not have any Support Systems listed separately on its entry page for a different cost, and references the Support Systems section of the wargear list. It's safe to assume that its options from said list cost the same as everyone elses.
Here's hoping that certain Support Systems are exclusive to larger models like the Stormsurge and Riptide and they cannot take certain others. Here's also hopling that those upgrades are costed appropriately.
At 360, it's going to be pointed too high with support systems (shield, ewo, vt, etc) to be really competitive to include in an army list. You'll be looking at 400+ points easy per one. And if you think of taking 3, that's 1200-1300 for one slot. Yeah, maybe in an apocalypse game to shred some infantry hordes, but in a reasonable game of 40k? Shyeah, right. I would be much happier if it had been cheaper and an either/or build. You either build a missile suit, or an anti-vehicle/creature pulse weapon suit that both can take SMS and a tertiary flamer/plasma/airburst grenades. Cost it to be 250ish before upgrades, and I could see that way before the weird "I can do everything really poorly" suit that we have now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, essentially, you either build it as a super Missile or Gun Broadside.
Gamgee wrote: Riptide pays more for some upgrades and can't take some. It's not unprecedented this thing could be hamstrung further by poor options and/or expensive upgrades.
IIRC, the cost for the Riptide's are also on its entry page, and not as a part of the wargear list.
The Stormsurge does not have any Support Systems listed separately on its entry page for a different cost, and references the Support Systems section of the wargear list. It's safe to assume that its options from said list cost the same as everyone elses.
Here's hoping that certain Support Systems are exclusive to larger models like the Stormsurge and Riptide and they cannot take certain others. Here's also hopling that those upgrades are costed appropriately.
In the support system page in the current Tau Codex it lists 2 prices for stim (it notes the 2nd price is for the riptide) and notes that certain units can't take the wargear (for example it notes on the Support Systems list that broadsides and riptides can't take Vectored retro-thrusters)
Vineheart01 wrote: Riptide is listed the same as any suit, and the wargear has footnotes for riptide specific restrictions and/or cost hykes. The riptide entry itself does not have any options other than Shielded Missile Drones (since it lacks the other drones for an option) and Ion Accel. swap // secondary weapon swap.
I just looked and this is correct. Point invalid Kingsley.
Hmm, weird.
Well in that case it is possible that the points are different.
I still doubt it, because the other GW writers don't set the 'dexes that way, but maybe Vetock was given the reins again for the update.
The other thing about its cost, in apoc games 1200-1300pts isnt that unusual. Its a bit more than most individual models but the whole plan involving said model usually adds up to around that quickly. Even ork players utilizing the cheapo Str D blast style is bound to have multiple stompas or other walkers around.
Not sure if i'd ever buy 3 of these though if 150USD is the final freakin cost. Dont even feel like kitbashing 3 of them since the level of work involved to make it look good would be a pain in the butt to do identically 3 times (or at least, similar with only slight differences for uniqueness). 150USD...i'd rather buy FW stuff at that cost. Get an R'Varna or two for a little more. Dont even know if i wanna bother buying one to kitbash up at that price, i may just bastardize a riptide.
Same problem Broadsides have. Technically 9 broadsides is an INSANE list to field, but nobody ever does it because 50USD each. That hurt even buying 3 of them, but i liked the model enough to justify it (feth the old ones...lol). Still debating whether or not i want to rehash my old broadsides into proper sized models or refurbish them as crisis suits....since thats what they freakin are lol
I have six broadssides. Three with HRR and three with HYMP. Do those HYMP ever do their work. Yes they were expensive, and I'll likely grab another three at some point.
I started my Tau army with a Firebase Support Cadre.
i just cant justify the Railguns anymore. It makes no sense that something 3x as big as a Lascannon is actually weaker. Extra range doesnt really count since 48" is still table-long in just about every scenario. i'd say 80% of the time an Iontide kills their targets much easier, with the other 20% being multiwounded T5/6 things.
If the Railguns were Heavy 2 or S9, i'd still field them. The AP1 means jack squat since i kill everything it reliably pens through sheer weight of fire anyway.
Heres to hoping the Broadsides get a buff in the new codex , the HRR is pretty lackluster in their current form, my squad of deathrains with buffmander is way more effective. Just to few shots to take out anything, their only advantage is their range, but so many time I had them fail, either they still miss, or the target has invul/cover saves (out of range of markerlights so no support) or the str is just no longer enough to reliably pen (even against trukks ).
Thats why i hacked off the barrels and replaced them with the rockets on their fists lol. Now they got a huge gun + obviously use missiles. Wasnt that hard of a conversion either since ironically once i hacked off one side of their fistbump rockets to bring them into one bundle and the railgun barrel, it sat on what was left just perfectly lol. Only greenstuff i put in were to patch a couple holes from sloppy cuts and the gap between the two halves at the front
Linked it earlier but i wont make you fetch if you wanna know what i mean:
Spoiler:
Oddly enough, the main Railgun i want in our codex is Railrifles but i DONT want them on friggen pathfinders. I seriously, SERIOUSLY hope our Shas'ui in the firewarrior squads can buy those pathfinder toys. Heck that maybe the perk of the "new" firewarriors is more gun options at a steeper cost than usual. I use hammerheads more because the model is badass and its useful enough to not be worthless by any means, but if im being serious i leave it at home. Oh, im rarely serious when i play 40klol its more fun to be goofy and bring a variety of stuff. Railrifles are literally improved Plasma Rifles lol. Balancewise i can understand why the suits dont get access to it since its in every way shape and form better than Plasmas, but fluffwise i dont get why they dont have it. But since its already a footsoldier gun...give it to my damn firewarriors!!!
If they gave the railhead and rail broadsides something to buff their railguns that would go a long way towards fixing their deficiencies vs other options. Lance would probably do it.
Thats why i hacked off the barrels and replaced them with the rockets on their fists lol. Now they got a huge gun + obviously use missiles. Wasnt that hard of a conversion either since ironically once i hacked off one side of their fistbump rockets to bring them into one bundle and the railgun barrel, it sat on what was left just perfectly lol. Only greenstuff i put in were to patch a couple holes from sloppy cuts and the gap between the two halves at the front
Linked it earlier but i wont make you fetch if you wanna know what i mean:
Spoiler:
Oddly enough, the main Railgun i want in our codex is Railrifles but i DONT want them on friggen pathfinders. I seriously, SERIOUSLY hope our Shas'ui in the firewarrior squads can buy those pathfinder toys. Heck that maybe the perk of the "new" firewarriors is more gun options at a steeper cost than usual. I use hammerheads more because the model is badass and its useful enough to not be worthless by any means, but if im being serious i leave it at home. Oh, im rarely serious when i play 40klol its more fun to be goofy and bring a variety of stuff.
Railrifles are literally improved Plasma Rifles lol. Balancewise i can understand why the suits dont get access to it since its in every way shape and form better than Plasmas, but fluffwise i dont get why they dont have it. But since its already a footsoldier gun...give it to my damn firewarriors!!!
I like it. reminds me a lot of the old WW2 british grenades they would fire from their rifle.
Vineheart01 wrote: i just cant justify the Railguns anymore. It makes no sense that something 3x as big as a Lascannon is actually weaker. Extra range doesnt really count since 48" is still table-long in just about every scenario. i'd say 80% of the time an Iontide kills their targets much easier, with the other 20% being multiwounded T5/6 things.
If the Railguns were Heavy 2 or S9, i'd still field them. The AP1 means jack squat since i kill everything it reliably pens through sheer weight of fire anyway.
Tau suck at miniaturization. All of their tech is bigger than Imperial or Eldar equivalents. This is so consistent across the range that it has to be a conscious design choice.
Someone read the WD issue and is claiming this thing is an open topped vehicle or has some rule similar to it on Warseer.
Take this with some salt since we've seen pictures of this things rules all over the place with Gargantuan Creature in it. He also mentioned having issues viewing the copy of WD.
Still thought it worth mentioning this is the rumors. I'm personally calling BS until we get more substantiated information.
thats not rumors, thats someone just making gak up and doing a really bad job of it.
Ive been slowly selling off most of my remaining 40k stuff, including my Tau, in anticipation of restarting the game with this new codex. Thinking about it, depending on what they do with the rules (specifically in regards to Broadsides and Hammerheads), I might just cut my losses and walk away entirely.
People will make gak up that makes a unit the absolute worst thing in the game when they dont get to use it. Thats why i avoid tournies because you find a lot of people that try to make rules up or dodge them/nitpick them to win rather than actually play.
Considering they mention its not a "battlesuit" i could see it being a walker instead of gmc, but even fuzzy picture its pretty damn obvious its not a vehicle. Idiots be idiots.
No offense, but instead of immediately flaming the user on Warseer with only the info from Gamgee, i went to warseer to check the new info out. The user who posted it is quite clear in that it is about how the model looks.
In his first sentence he indeed says it's an open-topped vehicle, but after that he explains it's about the looks.
Vineheart01 wrote: Thats why i avoid tournies because you find a lot of people that try to make rules up or dodge them/nitpick them to win rather than actually play.
Yes. Of course they do, of course they do. Damn those tournies players.
eskeblaf wrote: No offense, but instead of immediately flaming the user on Warseer with only the info from Gamgee, i went to warseer to check the new info out. The user who posted it is quite clear in that it is about how the model looks.
In his first sentence he indeed says it's an open-topped vehicle, but after that he explains it's about the looks.
Well, I bought one of the newer Broadsides and Riptide because they were so cool looking so I guess I'll have to get one of these too. Just when I thought this year was going to be so easy on my wallet GW goes and does something like this.
Looks like a codex picture, and it can take suit systems
Codex pictures don't say "WHITE DWARF" at the bottom.
It's just a clear, non-blurry photo of the French White Dwarf. We've known it can take Support Systems since Monday when the blurry English photos showed up.
according to the German text next to the picture, the suit has a crew of 2: mostly graduates of the ballistic Suit Academy, although some are shas'vre (like the one without helmet) who have great experience with suit- and/or tank-warfare.
the set contains 4 heads for the crew: 2 with helmet and 2 without. the big "head" of the suit itself (called targeting array in the text) has 3 options to choose from.
the 4th point describes how the front of the body has been designed to be glued in after painting the crew compartment.
the first two text bits just describe the shoulder weapons.
That is both an ugly design and dumb at the same time.
Speaking from even a remotely semi-realistic sense, that guy without a helmet is going to get his ears blasted off whenever the shotgun fires lol.
Whats the point of the head if the crew isnt covered? Unless theyre just systems support guys and its still got a pilot inside.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Even then, an armoured hatch overhead would make sense to protect them from shrapnel.
What shrapnel?
The shoulder mounted weapon is a pulse weapon--meaning it fires energy and not a projectile.
The height of the Stormsurge as well means that it is not really necessary, aside from dealing with flyers or guys on huuuuuuuuuuge buildings/cliffs, to worry about someone shooting down/firing in.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Even then, an armoured hatch overhead would make sense to protect them from shrapnel.
What shrapnel?
The shoulder mounted weapon is a pulse weapon--meaning it fires energy and not a projectile.
The height of the Stormsurge as well means that it is not really necessary, aside from dealing with flyers or guys on huuuuuuuuuuge buildings/cliffs, to worry about someone shooting down/firing in.
I know, but the two tau, with a crisis head behind, reminded me of the old BSG three pilot system.
Head: "Hey dude"
Middleguy:*groans
Head: "You hit the wrong key again pfffft"
Middleguy: "Why did they have to design an In-Built Backseat Driver on this thing!"
Head: "I dunno, why you gotta hit the wrong keys brah"
Middleguy: "aaaAAAAAAAHHHHHH"
Helmet: "I knew I should've become a Fire Lawyer"
What I see now is that ten inch D is not the gun. Instead it is the fire warriors slinging poo because the enemy is so close heh. Neat model but again not seeing it perform well on the table in my mind. Need more codex stuff hehe
lord_blackfang wrote: Nice to see this thing can be taken out by one jump pack guy with a pistol.
lol I can see one space marine flying up, shooting one round into the cockpit and flying away only to have the whole suit explode bad action movie style the moment he lands behind it.
Also do the rules indicate this is an open top vehicle or are we just assuming because of the model design? I don't think I've seen any scans that have it listed as such ,but I've been inspecting the pictures more than the text.
lord_blackfang wrote: Nice to see this thing can be taken out by one jump pack guy with a pistol.
lol I can see one space marine flying up, shooting one round into the cockpit and flying away only to have the whole suit explode bad action movie style the moment he lands behind it.
Also do the rules indicate this is an open top vehicle or are we just assuming because of the model design? I don't think I've seen any scans that have it listed as such ,but I've been inspecting the pictures more than the text.
The Tau Empire, capable of designing a 50 foot tall bipedal robot with a cannon the size of a modern day tank and a missile armament that would make even an MLRS blush... unable to put a roof on it.
chaos0xomega wrote: The Tau Empire, capable of designing a 50 foot tall bipedal robot with a cannon the size of a modern day tank and a missile armament that would make even an MLRS blush... unable to put a roof on it.
You think that's bad? Have a look at the necron flyers.
Here we have an advanced attack craft that's older than most races in the galaxy, comes with a potent electricity weapon, a teleportation device and an engine that drives enemy soldiers into madness due its unbearable roar, and is capable of incredible speeds.
Doesn't come with a cover over the cockpit though; that's beyond the necrons ability.
Or just their skimmers in general. What, did the necrons not discover radar tech, so they have to see everything themselves?
lord_blackfang wrote: Nice to see this thing can be taken out by one jump pack guy with a pistol.
lol I can see one space marine flying up, shooting one round into the cockpit and flying away only to have the whole suit explode bad action movie style the moment he lands behind it.
Also do the rules indicate this is an open top vehicle or are we just assuming because of the model design? I don't think I've seen any scans that have it listed as such ,but I've been inspecting the pictures more than the text.
It's a gargantuan creature so there is no such thing as "open topped" for it. That flaw is apparently reflected in the gakky 3+ save it gets that is very out of character for big tau bots (but so is being open topped).
lord_blackfang wrote: Nice to see this thing can be taken out by one jump pack guy with a pistol.
lol I can see one space marine flying up, shooting one round into the cockpit and flying away only to have the whole suit explode bad action movie style the moment he lands behind it.
Also do the rules indicate this is an open top vehicle or are we just assuming because of the model design? I don't think I've seen any scans that have it listed as such ,but I've been inspecting the pictures more than the text.
It's a gargantuan creature so there is no such thing as "open topped" for it. That flaw is apparently reflected in the gakky 3+ save it gets that is very out of character for big tau bots (but so is being open topped).
That's a terrible reason for a 3+ save.
Hey, most space marine leaders don't wear a helmet, shouldn't they have 4+ saves then?
chaos0xomega wrote: The Tau Empire, capable of designing a 50 foot tall bipedal robot with a cannon the size of a modern day tank and a missile armament that would make even an MLRS blush... unable to put a roof on it.
That does also explain the BS3. Instead of using the advanced electronics to flawlessly aim the giant guns, the fire warriors in the cockpit just stand up and eye ball the shot.
It's a gargantuan creature so there is no such thing as "open topped" for it. That flaw is apparently reflected in the gakky 3+ save it gets that is very out of character for big tau bots (but so is being open topped).
That's a terrible reason for a 3+ save.
Hey, most space marine leaders don't wear a helmet, shouldn't they have 4+ saves then?
I agree that it's a terrible reason but it's also the only way to reflect it in the stats. It's flat out stupid that they chose to make it faux open topped in the first place.
vitae_drinker wrote: They're self-repairing undead robots. Why do they need a cover?
Missile, meet exposed pilot. A solid, thick piece of regenerating metal is still more durable than a regenerating robot. Especially one that's controlling a sensitive piece of military hard ware. It would be like if the US army started to expose their engines in their tanks, with a huge target painted over it.
I get that the command barges and the stalker is open topped, because its some silly honor thing, but what about the anni barges? The arks? Why not have it connected to an advanced canoptek control system instead?
But I digress; silly "high-tech" GW designs are silly, for both Tau and Necrons.
No, not really. It's more like they built a tank controlled by a drone that can fix it's radio mast if it gets damaged, and then had an exposed radio mast. Maybe, you know, so it can get a signal.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And the whole most Necron vehicles having AV 14 shields and whatnot...
Except destroying the radio mast would not blow up the whole tank. Shooting the engine / right into the vehicle would.
Necron flyers do not have quantum shielding. Also, I would think that the an advanced race such as the necrons would find a better way to receive a signal that making a hole in their aircraft.
I just hate the overall design and have no idea why GW puts everything Tau has into battlesuits. This thing is just straight ugly for me and I miss a new vehicle for the Tau. But I guess they base this on what people purchase and huge stompy robots are what most players are into. I am still thinking on how I can transform this into a vehicle.
I said most, thanks. Maybe they don't have a better means to maintain signal integrity? How do you know? Maybe it's to maintain proper validation of targets by visual contact? Maybe there's an energy shield over the cockpit? Wouldn't that make more sense than a big chunk of metal?
Kahnawake wrote: I just hate the overall design and have no idea why GW puts everything Tau has into battlesuits. This thing is just straight ugly for me and I miss a new vehicle for the Tau. But I guess they base this on what people purchase and huge stompy robots are what most players are into. I am still thinking on how I can transform this into a vehicle.
cheers
Kahnawake
I sort of get it; battlesuits are a pretty iconic Tau unit.
So logically, a new Tau unit should be a type of battlesuit, right?
At least, that's probably the Marketing department's logic.
I would have preferred to see more skimmers, but eh, the new suits are kinda of cool.
Personally, I think stormsurge makes more sense as a dual build kit (missiles vs big gun) super broadside kit, or as a super heavy vehicle (super hammerhead/skyray kit).
chaos0xomega wrote: The Tau Empire, capable of designing a 50 foot tall bipedal robot with a cannon the size of a modern day tank and a missile armament that would make even an MLRS blush... unable to put a roof on it.
You think that's bad? Have a look at the necron flyers.
Here we have an advanced attack craft that's older than most races in the galaxy, comes with a potent electricity weapon, a teleportation device and an engine that drives enemy soldiers into madness due its unbearable roar, and is capable of incredible speeds.
Doesn't come with a cover over the cockpit though; that's beyond the necrons ability.
Or just their skimmers in general. What, did the necrons not discover radar tech, so they have to see everything themselves?
No idea what you're talking about. The only Necrons I know of were never updated after their first codex and never had any fliers. In fact, their only vehicle option was a Monolith.
I think it's pretty safe to assume, fluff-wise, that the Necrons stopped bothering to enclose their vehicles because they all derive some protection from fields, even if their rules don't literally include quantum shielding. The monolith seems to be the big exception, perhaps being a mobile strong point rather than a normal vehicle.
The Tau crew on this walker could easily be protected by a field. Too bad GW couldn't use logic and make it an open topped walker with an invulnerable save.
vitae_drinker wrote: I said most, thanks. Maybe they don't have a better means to maintain signal integrity? How do you know? Maybe it's to maintain proper validation of targets by visual contact? Maybe there's an energy shield over the cockpit? Wouldn't that make more sense than a big chunk of metal?
Not really; having an energy field to project something that could have easily been protected by a simple cover is just inefficient use of resources. Especially when the night shroud bomber does, in fact, have a covered cockpit.
The necrons are masters of dimensional tech, and can manipulate the fabric of time and space. I think they have signal integrity covered.
Now visual contact is a good point, yes. I would counter that having a canoptek drones would be the same has they are also machines, but technically warriors are also drones as well. Still needs better protection though. Quantum shielding or no that's pretty illogical. Its like having a window between you and an angry bear. Yeah, the bear can't get to, but you still wouldn't want to be near it without some solid bit of protection. And considering how QS tends to fail, having more metal might be a good thing.
chaos0xomega wrote: The Tau Empire, capable of designing a 50 foot tall bipedal robot with a cannon the size of a modern day tank and a missile armament that would make even an MLRS blush... unable to put a roof on it.
You think that's bad? Have a look at the necron flyers. Here we have an advanced attack craft that's older than most races in the galaxy, comes with a potent electricity weapon, a teleportation device and an engine that drives enemy soldiers into madness due its unbearable roar, and is capable of incredible speeds. Doesn't come with a cover over the cockpit though; that's beyond the necrons ability.
Or just their skimmers in general. What, did the necrons not discover radar tech, so they have to see everything themselves?
No idea what you're talking about. The only Necrons I know of were never updated after their first codex and never had any fliers. In fact, their only vehicle option was a Monolith.
Gamgee wrote: It's open topped? Hahaha wtf! Games Workshop has officially trolled us now.
Next we'll have open topped dreadnaughts with the marine exposed. Oh wait...
I don't get how the stormsurge is open topped though; there's clearly an artificial head. Its not very intuitive. Like, I know that its not a vehicle so it doesn't really matter rules wise, but it just doesn't make sense. Are the other suits like that? It doesn't make sense.
I sort of get it; battlesuits are a pretty iconic Tau unit.
So logically, a new Tau unit should be a type of battlesuit, right?
At least, that's probably the Marketing department's logic.
I would have preferred to see more skimmers, but eh, the new suits are kinda of cool.
I like the Ghostkeel (not it's name though) and will buy it. The Storm Surge is an abomination to me lol!
cheers
Kahnawake
I like the stormsurge It reminds of something from mechwarrior.
The gun is a bit too big though, I'll give you that.
Its only S10 too. You'd think a rail gun that size would be S D.
Isn't it bigger than the hammerhead's?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I like the stormsurge It reminds of something from mechwarrior.
The gun is a bit too big though, I'll give you that.
Its only S10 too. You'd think a rail gun that size would be S D.
Isn't it bigger than the hammerhead's?
Hey, I'm happy you like it. More people seem to and I always enjoy seeing all models, even if I don't like them. The gun is either on par or slightly bigger than hammerhead's one I think? I hear many people complain about the S10, I'm too bad of a player to discuss that though Cheers
Kahnawake
At least the guy who did the Metal Gear Rex Tau walker finally has something to use it as. He's got a big gun, missiles, and the cockpit is modelled open.
You have a very odd understanding of the world. 1. Bears won't coordinate on an escape. 2. We rely on single layers of protection ALL THE TIME when it comes to threats. Like zoos who only use laminated glass to keep bears in pens. The world is not nearly as safe as you think it is. 3. It's an aesthetic choice on the part of GW. The very concept that you would have people rushing into close combat and being issued guns with effective ranges at less than 100 meters at 38,000 years into the future is ridiculous. And you complain that the undead robot space plane doesn't have cockpit glass? Huh?
We may only use one type of defense, but we always try and use the best mix of cost and effectiveness in real life as well.
In real life no modern purpose built tank or front line military vehicle would ever be made again with an open top unless there were some extreme situation that called for a cheap vehicle.
We've discovered that surprise having an open top compromises the durability and protection offered by a layer of armor. Any visibility given to a vehicle with glass or entry hatches will compromise armor and has to be made so people can use the vehicle.
Still a good engineer will minimize the problems of those and maximize the defense offered.
It would be incredibly easy to add a hatch or plate there if necessary. Not to mention the dumbness of this thing in an airless environment. Is the crew on limited life support with their own personal armor?
That would greatly limit their time they can be in the field as opposed to having a sealed compartment.
Lol@it being open topped. GW always finds a little way to make an acceptable model look like gak. For the Stormtalon it was the giant turret, for the Taurox the tracks, for the Dreadknight the Marine strapped in.
vitae_drinker wrote: 3. It's an aesthetic choice on the part of GW. The very concept that you would have people rushing into close combat and being issued guns with effective ranges at less than 100 meters at 38,000 years into the future is ridiculous. And you complain that the undead robot space plane doesn't have cockpit glass? Huh?
Only space marines and specialized units rush in close combat, and they have gear and background to justify such actions. Not to mention that Wh40k was always more space opera that actual hard sci fi.
The short ranges are an abstraction caused in part by the scale of the game. A really, really silly abstraction that has been done better in other games, but still an abstraction.
The fact that there is a big hole in the middle of an aircraft that is a clear weakpoint is a terrible aesthetic choice on the part of GW. There's not even any bit of fluff explaining why its like that. Its just there.
chaos0xomega wrote: The Tau Empire, capable of designing a 50 foot tall bipedal robot with a cannon the size of a modern day tank and a missile armament that would make even an MLRS blush... unable to put a roof on it.
Harriticus wrote: Lol@it being open topped. GW always finds a little way to make an acceptable model look like gak. For the Stormtalon it was the giant turret, for the Taurox the tracks, for the Dreadknight the Marine strapped in.
This is the company whose 3+ armor marine commanders frequently like to take their helmets off in the middle of a firefight (even when snipers are known to be nearby). Ditto on the orignial sentinels and warwalkers lacking armor to protect those inside. Did we expect anything less?
If it bothers anyone, a 1" x 2" piece of plasticard should cover the opening nicely.
I really hope that this is just a detail piece like FW does with it's titian heads and it comes with a top. Especially as this is the first we've seen of the open top.
Nevelon wrote: I wonder how long it will take for a third party company to make a top hatch for that thing. Looks like it wouldn’t be particularly hard to do.
Wait... I missed something. I thought it had a top but that they just didn't use it for this one so they could show the interior. You saying this is just a big arsed War Walker?
Nevelon wrote: I wonder how long it will take for a third party company to make a top hatch for that thing. Looks like it wouldn’t be particularly hard to do.
Harriticus wrote: Lol@it being open topped. GW always finds a little way to make an acceptable model look like gak. For the Stormtalon it was the giant turret, for the Taurox the tracks, for the Dreadknight the Marine strapped in.
This is the company whose 3+ armor marine commanders frequently like to take their helmets off in the middle of a firefight (even when snipers are known to be nearby). Ditto on the orignial sentinels and warwalkers lacking armor to protect those inside. Did we expect anything less?
If it bothers anyone, a 1" x 2" piece of plasticard should cover the opening nicely.
Supposedly that's because marines have better senses without their helmets on, and they are meant to be slightly bullet proof.
Most of the weapons their enemies wield fire more dangerous projectiles than bullets though.
Oh...that's where the exposed cockpit is. That is the worse place ever. Like, why? It makes no sense.
Like, at first I thought it was where the head is, which is already silly looking because of its tiny size, but its in the chest, where most of the attacks would be directed. Also, it needs more legs. Having two legs doing the squat looks silly.
Horrendous open cockpit aside, the kit does have quite a few bits and bobs that ooze with the rule of cool yet again, like the reactor that can slide in and out and those poseable ground anchors. It will be interesting to see what our local Tau player is going to do with this kit.
I have a question. What happens when it rains? Do the pilots float away? Is there drainage? Does the Stormsurge have a gutter system? (I just redid my patio and had to add a gutter LOLLOL).
Which is what makes this so much harder to see it crippled with that stat line.
If our codex is sufficiently powerful to back this up and we have actual good anti-tank maybe I could get this. The problem is though we already have so much anti-infantry and I can't justify getting a mediocre to poor unit unless it's got good enough backup that nothing could hope to get into melee with it. If the rest of the Tau codex disappoints like him though? Well it's at least some pretty cool pictures to look at. If it had a good (but not op) then I could get over the open topped dumbness and even modify it closed.
Considering literally every army in 40K has an open-topped vehicle, I don't see what the big deal is. The Stormsurge is still more practical than vehicles such as the flying boat that is the Dark Eldar Raider. The main thing that stands out to me that no one has mentioned is that the Stormsurge has two heads...
Ghaz wrote: The main thing that stands out to me that no one has mentioned is that the Stormsurge has two heads...
Actually, this makes sense to me. They kind of look like the Land Raider's sensor arrays (the ones that go over the sponsons), and it would make sense to have 2, since there are 2 pilots (and multiple weapons). Wait, is there a rear view mirror? Because aliens can't make 360 degree sensors.
Seeing the stormsurge with a 3+... Hoping the Riptide also has a 3+, that alone would fix the thing to me, keep everything else, even the cheap ion accelerater, just allow me the chance to kill it.
Though the idea of the braces on the back of the legs are a nice idea, they're too far down and with the stance those things are taking, all that's going to happen is the damn thing is going to cut a backflip when it fires.
Would have made more sense if the anchor had been more towards the pelvis, or perhaps had been the tailer (like on a Mac II monster).
Though the idea of the braces on the back of the legs are a nice idea, they're too far down and with the stance those things are taking, all that's going to happen is the damn thing is going to cut a backflip when it fires.
Would have made more sense if the anchor had been more towards the pelvis, or perhaps had been the tailer (like on a Mac II monster).
That actually does raise the question, why did they make the ankles so weak in the first place if the hip and knees are strong enough to support it? Hell, you could could have had locking braces on the feet like the Konig Monster.
That being said, a large pelvis/back brace like the Destroid Monster MK II (lol M.A.C.) would be a lot more impressive.
Because... that's not similar to any other Tau designs? I don't know why many people ask for a 4-legged suit/vehicle for Tau. The suits were always bipedal and the vehicles are hover. It's much more appealing to the Imperium to go 4-legged (as Skitarii have done).
@vitae_drinker - Maybe to you; I think stormsurge looks *infinitely* better than the CH model (which I never liked). Pose of SS is pretty awesome, IMO, especially with the stabilizers in the back.
But to each their own; perhaps if you ask them nicely, CH will sell you one of their Tau models
chaos0xomega wrote: What would have made the most sense would be to make the damned thing quadrupedal
I think Tau should keep the Battletech rip-off look, but that's just me
Gamgee wrote: It's a good model, but I don't think it looks at all like something the Tau would use.
Yeah, I'm not positive that the whole idea heavy weapons platforms with rockets and such fits with the Tau meme. At least, not how I imagine them. But the model is cool, so oh well
GW listened to their customers. After hearing that they are releasing things too fast, they've decided to stretch all releases over a 3 month period. With a new part of the codex released every two weeks, at $40 each, or 60 $Aus.
Co'tor Shas wrote: GW listened to their customers. After hearing that they are releasing things too fast, they've decided to stretch all releases over a 3 month period. With a new part of the codex released every two weeks, at $40 each, or 60 $Aus.
With their more recent prices it's more like $80 AU.
Also unsure if this has been posted yet, but here are the prices for the Stormsurge.
$250 AUD, yeah how about no. An Imperial Knight is only $185 (or $155 for the older box with just the Paladin/Errant)...
If they had chopped the thing off at the waist and put it on something similar to the four engine Orca, I probably wouldn't be able to say no, no matter price or rules.
Jayden63 wrote: If they had chopped the thing off at the waist and put it on something similar to the four engine Orca, I probably wouldn't be able to say no, no matter price or rules.
It mentions a crew of 2, but I think I prefer the idea that it is a 3-person suit. One inside using the sensor head and steering the suit, then two gunners- one to manage the main gun and power system for it, and the other to handle the missile batteries and point defense.
I hope the legs are fairly posable like the Riptides. I really like the model detail wise, there's some really cool bits on there, but I can't get my head round that pose still.
Jayden63 wrote: If they had chopped the thing off at the waist and put it on something similar to the four engine Orca, I probably wouldn't be able to say no, no matter price or rules.
You mean like the Terminator (Salvation) Harvester loaded up on the prison transport?
Spoiler:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: Even if there is some rule involving that open cockpit, im not modeling it in there. Dumbest thing ever and looks so out of place.
Put a lid on it, greenstuff some holes, act like it never existed.
My vote is a clear acrylic canopy; you can see inside, but the crew aren't exposed.
Co'tor Shas wrote: GW listened to their customers. After hearing that they are releasing things too fast, they've decided to stretch all releases over a 3 month period. With a new part of the codex released every two weeks, at $40 each, or 60 $Aus.
With their more recent prices it's more like $80 AU.
Also unsure if this has been posted yet, but here are the prices for the Stormsurge.
$250 AUD, yeah how about no. An Imperial Knight is only $185 (or $155 for the older box with just the Paladin/Errant)...
My god I feel for the kiwis... ~$300 NZ? WTF
Ah geez, I was hoping for something along the lines of $170ish, same price point as the Lord of Skulls and nicely wedged between the two IK variants in cost.
But $250? That's honestly baffling. I mean, it's pretty clear they want people to take multiples of this thing, otherwise it wouldn't have the option of taking 1-3 as a single choice, but who in their right mind would want to get multiples at $250 apiece?
Hopefully we'll see a Skarbrand situation wherein the pre-orders are lackluster and they throw the price down to compensate, even putting it down to $200 would be a significant improvement.
Jayden63 wrote: If they had chopped the thing off at the waist and put it on something similar to the four engine Orca, I probably wouldn't be able to say no, no matter price or rules.
You mean like the Terminator (Salvation) Harvester loaded up on the prison transport?
Spoiler:
Yeah, I kind of imagine a bit like a whirlwind. You have the body in the back. Move the big gun from the shoulder down into the chest area, off set to one side to match the hammerhead design. But the body a four engine skimmer. Keeps with the current Tau skimmer model but isnt another walking robot. I think it would look cool. I'd photoshop something if I wasn't on a laptop without photoshop.
Stormsurge is a beauty!!!
that is a hefty price tag, but it beats the $310 for the CH quadrapede...
i don't mind the open cockpit, especially as you can't even see it from straight on...
it is cool to see the crew in action...
i love that the Stormie has two heads, as well as two crew...
there are so many awesome details to paint on this mini, i am excited to paint it for competition...
i love that the studio has adopted Matt Holland's white scheme...
that has always been my favorite one...
CAD sucks super bad right now and is only slightly better than the AUD. Slightly. I'm lucky enough that I can get a small amount of tax removed and a discount from my FLGS. SO it makes purchasing things much more viable.
Alas I don't get a discount with FW stuff so the Ta'unar is going to be full price for me. Ugh. My wallet folks. My wallet.
Gamgee wrote: CAD sucks super bad right now and is only slightly better than the AUD. Slightly. I'm lucky enough that I can get a small amount of tax removed and a discount from my FLGS. SO it makes purchasing things much more viable.
How do you figure that? CAD is one of the cheapest prices at the moment. CAD and AUD are almost at parity... and the CAD price is $180 and AUD is $250, so we have it WAY better.
In addition, at $1 USD = $1.33 CAD (today's exchange rate), $180 CAD = $135 USD -- cheaper than in the USA.
If you normalize it:
New Zealanders: Pay $189 USD (including tax?) Australians: Pay $176 USD including tax Americans: Pay $150 USD, not including tax Canadians: Pay $135 USD, not including tax UK: Pay $136 USD, including tax
Granted, CAD is at an all-time low versus USD... but most currencies are.
Where are you getting this CAD is cheaper thing? I've never seen it. Everything on their site is listed as more expensive. On their site everything in CAD is more expensive than the US.
Unless you mean compared to other countries we have it good. In which case yea you proved your point.
The more important thing is that those pictures show a sizeable Kroot contingent in the army; hopefully this means that they're still in the codex.
As for the open cockpit; it's stupid and totally out of character for Tau, but very well executed in the detail. Removable panel definitely required please.
Gamgee wrote: Where are you getting this CAD is cheaper thing? I've never seen it. Everything on their site is listed as more expensive. On their site everything in CAD is more expensive than the US.
Unless you mean compared to other countries we have it good. In which case yea you proved your point.
Why do you have to pay so much for 40k models?
I guess maybe I misunderstood you. I thought you meant that in Canada, we get it almost as bad as Australia. I was just saying we actually get it a lot better than our Aussie friends -- other than the UK, we get Storm Surge, I think, cheaper than anyone else. I'm not trying to say Storm Surge is cheap, just that as Canadians, we're not getting the short end of the stick.
Well at this price this model is impossible to buy for me, considering I pay less for my flat per month haha
By the way, it's crazy how low the prices drop later on for assembled, but unpainted models or open boxes. I have seen 2 partly assembled riptides sold on an auction for 120pln (30 USD) yesterday. One was primed, the other one not. They had all the bits included. Most of my minis come from such auctions, it's the only reasonable way for me to complete an army. The only things I have to buy new are some rarely-played units like sniper drone teams, stealth teams and so on. I sometimes feel dirty about it, because it's not supporting the game much but on the other hand the stuff I have to buy from GW from time to time is so overpriced it's crazy (oh sniper drones... my favourite model, and so crazily priced for one mini with 3 drones. And noone uses them so no second market on those!).
Talys wrote: I also REALLY like the back. I mean, love it. The back of a model is critical, because it's what I'm looking at most of the time when I'm playing
Oddly enough it does look kinda good from the back side. I kinda hate everything else about it, though.
Anyway, is the suit seriously meant to have an open cockpit like that? It looks like it might possibly be designed to have a removable lid just to show the detail like some of FW's titans, but the WD doesn't actually make it clear one way or the other and most of the pics are taken at such an angle that you can't really tell. I seriously hope that isn't meant to be open because that's probably the stupidest possible thing you could have done, second only to giving Tau titan-sized suits in the first place, in my opinion.
Other than the open-topped issues, the Stormsurge seems to be controlled with buttons. That really doesn't seem to make much sense for Battlesuits. I thought the point of them was they are linked to the pilot and become like an extension of the wearer, which is why they can be so mobile and aren't walkers. That sort of control doesn't seem possible with buttons.
Having multiple crew doesn't fit too well either considering they have AI that could do the same job. Doesn't the Riptide have a crew of 1 and so do the large Forgeworld battlesuits?
Mentlegen324 wrote: Other than the open-topped issues, the Stormsurge seems to be controlled with buttons. That really doesn't seem to make much sense for Battlesuits. I thought the point of them was they are linked to the pilot and become like an extension of the wearer, which is why they can be so mobile and aren't walkers. That sort of control doesn't seem possible with buttons.
Having multiple crew doesn't fit too well either considering they have AI that could do the same job. Doesn't the Riptide have a crew of 1 and so do the large Forgeworld battlesuits?
Is it really the entire crew? I thought those two guys control the weapon systems, and there's one more dude inside who's controlling the movement, giving orders and stuff. If there's only two crewmen inside, what is that head for?
Mentlegen324 wrote: Other than the open-topped issues, the Stormsurge seems to be controlled with buttons. That really doesn't seem to make much sense for Battlesuits. I thought the point of them was they are linked to the pilot and become like an extension of the wearer, which is why they can be so mobile and aren't walkers. That sort of control doesn't seem possible with buttons.
Having multiple crew doesn't fit too well either considering they have AI that could do the same job. Doesn't the Riptide have a crew of 1 and so do the large Forgeworld battlesuits?
Is it really the entire crew? I thought those two guys control the weapon systems, and there's one more dude inside who's controlling the movement, giving orders and stuff. If there's only two crewmen inside, what is that head for?
cheers
Kahnawake
Yeah, but why does it need someone to control the weapon systems? Isn't a suit just a big suit of powered armor?
It would make more sense if it were a vehicle.
I'm guessing GW believes they'll get away with it being controlled by buttons because Rule Of Cool and that is "isn't a Battles Suit, its a Ballistic Suit! Totes different guys."
WD pictures that leaked leaks show how out of place the stormsurge is. An open topped suit with two crewman, controlling the behamoth with buttons and tiny sceens. LOL.
Rule-wise it should have been treated as a super-heavy walker vehicle. Being gargantuan creature makes no sense.
Anyway, here are some sharper pictures of the rules than in OP, from the french WD :
As we can see, the pulse cannon blaster has an AP that drops fast with the distance. The four destroyer missiles (single use) do not seem to have any special rules. they have a convenient 60" range though.
I'm more curious about the Ghostkeel than the Stormsurge at this point. The SS is gonna rock once you bump it up to about 400 points with its upgrades, and it'll probably kill its points' worth in most games, but the GK might have some really nasty tricks up its sleeve that give you the intangible edge that wins the game.
New Fire Warriors are like 3 codices overdue at this point.
I also can't wait for the Ghostkeel reveal. I'm hoping it won't be that expensive though!
@Ravajaxe, thanks for the sharper photos. Anyone got better photos of those new FW's? That small glimpse they gave us with the Ghostkeel left me with mixed feelings, I think I like the old sculpts more! I'm still curious though.
Talys wrote: I also REALLY like the back. I mean, love it. The back of a model is critical, because it's what I'm looking at most of the time when I'm playing
Oddly enough it does look kinda good from the back side. I kinda hate everything else about it, though.
Anyway, is the suit seriously meant to have an open cockpit like that? It looks like it might possibly be designed to have a removable lid just to show the detail like some of FW's titans, but the WD doesn't actually make it clear one way or the other and most of the pics are taken at such an angle that you can't really tell. I seriously hope that isn't meant to be open because that's probably the stupidest possible thing you could have done, second only to giving Tau titan-sized suits in the first place, in my opinion.
It seems to be open topped.
If you look at all the photos of it, you can look at the Devilfish looking part and see a kind of half-circle on that and the part immediately next to it. In all the shots of it that half-circle is never completed like one would assume any canopy would do.
Mentlegen324 wrote: Other than the open-topped issues, the Stormsurge seems to be controlled with buttons. That really doesn't seem to make much sense for Battlesuits. I thought the point of them was they are linked to the pilot and become like an extension of the wearer, which is why they can be so mobile and aren't walkers. That sort of control doesn't seem possible with buttons.
Having multiple crew doesn't fit too well either considering they have AI that could do the same job. Doesn't the Riptide have a crew of 1 and so do the large Forgeworld battlesuits?
It's not a battle suit in the sense that a Crisis Suit or Riptide is, where it just has one pilot and is basically a huge suit of power armour, it's more like a vehicle with a crew, like Imperial Titans are.
While I'll admit that the exposed crew is very impractical, I gotta say I really like this model. I think more than anything I really like the shapes on it. I dunno, it just appeals to me.
Mentlegen324 wrote: Other than the open-topped issues, the Stormsurge seems to be controlled with buttons. That really doesn't seem to make much sense for Battlesuits. I thought the point of them was they are linked to the pilot and become like an extension of the wearer, which is why they can be so mobile and aren't walkers. That sort of control doesn't seem possible with buttons.
Having multiple crew doesn't fit too well either considering they have AI that could do the same job. Doesn't the Riptide have a crew of 1 and so do the large Forgeworld battlesuits?
It's not a battle suit in the sense that a Crisis Suit or Riptide is, where it just has one pilot and is basically a huge suit of power armour, it's more like a vehicle with a crew, like Imperial Titans are.
So why not make it a vehicle?
If its that radically different it shouldn't follow that convention.
That technologically advanced societies see physical protection as primitive is an old sci-fi trope. Because energy fields are better.
In fact, in most cases, in game terms, the Necron transport has the benefits of an open-topped vehicle while having the same AV as a solid tank.
As for critters vs. walkers, in terms of rules rather than words, what it boils down to is generally not whether something is literally a creature or literally a vehicle (which is irrelevant) but whether or not the thing is subject to penetrating hits, the melta rule/armourbane, and so forth. Mainly, is the thing subject to gradual impairment caused by damage,
This can in general be rationalized away,I think, by saying that Tau suits and Dreadknights are sophisticated enough that they have numerous backup systems, meaning that they are not subject to incremental damage, for instance. Not that they function like a creature. Real creatures don't function like 40K ones either, because they become injured and are nor either fully functional or out of action.
It is totally irrelevant whether or not something that is actually a little hunk of plastic is supposed to represent a machine or a living thing -- what matters is how it interacts with specific rules.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: As a superheavy walker (if you are wanting it to be at about the same points) it would be 12/12/11 open topped with 9 hullpoints.
AV 12 being the equivalent of T8, so this could not be the case. To convert it to a walker vehicle would need a whole recalculation of its profile. Bumping it up from T6 to AV 11 or 12 would need to alter HP, plus taking into consideration the absence of armour save on vehicles. So it is not an easy task. And as I feared, Games Workshop just took the lazy & easy way : treat it as a creature.
bossfearless wrote: I'm more curious about the Ghostkeel than the Stormsurge at this point. The SS is gonna rock once you bump it up to about 400 points with its upgrades, and it'll probably kill its points' worth in most games, but the GK might have some really nasty tricks up its sleeve that give you the intangible edge that wins the game.
New Fire Warriors are like 3 codices overdue at this point.
Sorry I can't hear your complaining over the Adepta Sororitas kits who are in dire need of a reboot across the board...
Kahnawake wrote: I also can't wait for the Ghostkeel reveal. I'm hoping it won't be that expensive though!
cheers
Kahnawake
Agreed - any word on what slot the Ghostkeel might actually take? It looks to be the same kit as Riptide with probably a different sprue for head/weapon options.
I'm guessing GW believes they'll get away with it being controlled by buttons because Rule Of Cool and that is "isn't a Battles Suit, its a Ballistic Suit! Totes different guys."
Well, it has two 'heads'. Theres also what looks to be a hatch on the back, which is what I assumed a crewmember would climb in through (until I saw it was open topped)
I'm guessing GW believes they'll get away with it being controlled by buttons because Rule Of Cool and that is "isn't a Battles Suit, its a Ballistic Suit! Totes different guys."
Well, it has two 'heads'. Theres also what looks to be a hatch on the back, which is what I assumed a crewmember would climb in through (until I saw it was open topped)
Yeah, the 'hatch' is the reactor apparently.
I like the fact that they finally put to rest the argument about "Is the Fire Warrior inside of a suit putting his head inside of the Suit head?". It's like the remote weapon systems we have today on armored vehicles. It having two separate ones doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but maybe one is dedicated for the Pulse cannon mount and the other is for the rest?
I was kinda looking forward to this thing until I saw the price. Now, I'm reconsidering. Might try and pick up one on eBay in a couple months, or pursue other options.
Kahnawake wrote: I also can't wait for the Ghostkeel reveal. I'm hoping it won't be that expensive though!
cheers
Kahnawake
Agreed - any word on what slot the Ghostkeel might actually take? It looks to be the same kit as Riptide with probably a different sprue for head/weapon options.
It's a XV9 scale suit, won't be as big as a Riptide.
Prolly about £40 per model I'd think. Hope it isn't an HQ honestly: Then I'd only be able to take one in my current list.
Kahnawake wrote: I also can't wait for the Ghostkeel reveal. I'm hoping it won't be that expensive though!
cheers
Kahnawake
Agreed - any word on what slot the Ghostkeel might actually take? It looks to be the same kit as Riptide with probably a different sprue for head/weapon options.
It's smaller than the Riptide, and even if it was the same size there looks to be no parts in common at all. It's definitely a whole new kit with no shared sprues with the Riptide.
Ghostkeel is clearly shorter than a Riptide, somewhere between Broadside and Riptide in size by my guess. Probably be a T5 MC with 3+ armor (2+ armor kinda doesnt make sense if its going to have Stealth and Shrouded like the Stealth Suits have, which its clearly meant to be a bigger brother for)
Going to be a bit sad if its an HQ because you know its going to be a named HQ if it is and thus have 0 options. And Tau's named HQs have a bad habit of only being good in a very few situations, and trash in the rest. Quite frankly i want Stealth Suits to be FA as it is, so i'd also hope this thing is FA. Our FA is really barren of useful units lol
Though i admit, part of me wants fluff for this thing about it being a new Shadowsun model lol. She got tired of fearing heavy arms so she ordered a new suit lol
Zognob Gorgoff wrote: so which gundum kit do i need to buy to give this guy arms? then it can hold that rifle and the missiles can go on the shoulders.
Funny you should mention that. I had just recently bought a Gundam Heavy Arms model, and I would dare to say it makes a decent stand-in at $35 US.
Vineheart01 wrote: Ghostkeel is clearly shorter than a Riptide, somewhere between Broadside and Riptide in size by my guess.
Going to be a bit sad if its an HQ because you know its going to be a named HQ if it is and thus have 0 options. And Tau's named HQs have a bad habit of only being good in a very few situations, and trash in the rest. Quite frankly i want Stealth Suits to be FA as it is, so i'd also hope this thing is FA. Our FA is really barren of useful units lol
Though i admit, part of me wants fluff for this thing about it being a new Shadowsun model lol. She got tired of fearing heavy arms so she ordered a new suit lol
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, the HRR is pretty lackluster in their current form, my squad of 
