warboss wrote: I just wonder if they'll autoinclude a unit no one uses or wants like they did with the eldar and the vyper.
If the past Decurions have been any indication (Tomb Blades for Necrons, War Walkers/Vypers for Eldar, etc.), there will absolutely be an auto-include unit people didn't like. And going by the previous examples we've seen, personally I think the auto-include will be Piranhas. It fits with the theme of the past Decurions, a fast, vulnerable, unit for jumping around the board. Certainly makes more sense to have it as an actual Tau unit and not an auxiliary like Vespid or Kroot. The only other option I can think of would be Stealth Suits (thinking in terms of general units that don't see much play time and probably don't sell that much), but even they are still good, they just aren't used because the other Elite options are just so much better (speaking of which, can Stealth Suits be moved to FA please GW?)
So yeah, my prediction is Piranhas will be our forced include for Tau Decurion, but will see some kind of buff similar to Tomb Blades and Vypers (likely we'll get more weapon options like plasma rifles or missile pods, and possibly the ability to replace the gun drones like how Devilfish and the tanks can).
I'm fine with Piranhas as an auto-include since I get a lot of use out of them but I hope they don't get crisis suit weapons as that'll make the TX-42 redundant.
Probably just having sensor spines automatically attached for free would be great enough a buff for easier fast unit point capping
I really don't want new fast attack units for the Tau, I love all of the options we have now, but it's just sad most of them aren't that great. At best I think maybe two to three are actually playable in a serious manner when looking at the base codex, but that means 50% or more are amazingly bad.
Honestly, I'd rather they make our fast attack options better, instead of introducing new ones. As for troops, I want more troops >.>
Oh, and make Piranhas a little more awesome, I absolutely love their models and their concept of super fast units that can plop down drone walls.
There needs to be a FA battlesuit to let yo do an all-battlesuit army without bringing in forge world. I suppose it's too much to ask that the ghostkeel kit would let you build regular XV9s, but maybe the new crisis suit kit will let you build coldstar suits or something.
I'm fine with Piranhas as an auto-include since I get a lot of use out of them but I hope they don't get crisis suit weapons as that'll make the TX-42 redundant.
Probably just having sensor spines automatically attached for free would be great enough a buff for easier fast unit point capping
Hawkeye888 wrote: If they moved stealth suit to FA they would probably become a popular FA option. That's if there isn't a way to make them troops in the new dex.
Wishlisting but I'd like to see MLs on stealth suits...
I'm fine with Piranhas as an auto-include since I get a lot of use out of them but I hope they don't get crisis suit weapons as that'll make the TX-42 redundant.
Probably just having sensor spines automatically attached for free would be great enough a buff for easier fast unit point capping
I'm fine with Piranhas as an auto-include since I get a lot of use out of them but I hope they don't get crisis suit weapons as that'll make the TX-42 redundant.
Well, Decurion formations don't allow for FW units to be used any way, so I don't think GW is gonna care too much about the TX-42.
Gonna suck not being able to use my Tetras all the time now, I've fallen in love with those guys since I got them this year.
Rainyday wrote: There needs to be a FA battlesuit to let yo do an all-battlesuit army without bringing in forge world. I suppose it's too much to ask that the ghostkeel kit would let you build regular XV9s, but maybe the new crisis suit kit will let you build coldstar suits or something.
To put it lightly, if this is a Decurion styled book?
I wouldn't worry too much about there being "no fast attack battlesuits". You could just run formations consisting of Crisis Suits, Broadsides, and Stealth Suits.
In fact, just for speculation/wishlisting? With the advent of the Ghostkeel and the Stormsurge, I would not be surprised to see formations that read like so:
<Insert Tau-y name for the formation here>
0+ (or 1+) Ghostkeel
3+ Stealth Suit Teams
0-1 Shadowsun
<Insert Tau-y name for the formation here>
1(or 1-2) Stormsurge
2+ Broadside Teams
0+ Sniper Drone Teams
I'm fine with Piranhas as an auto-include since I get a lot of use out of them but I hope they don't get crisis suit weapons as that'll make the TX-42 redundant.
Well, Decurion formations don't allow for FW units to be used any way, so I don't think GW is gonna care too much about the TX-42.
Gonna suck not being able to use my Tetras all the time now, I've fallen in love with those guys since I got them this year.
None of the books that have Decurions have had new FW rules published/updated to match yet, so that's a bit of a stretch.
I would not be surprised to see FW publish a FAQ/Errata for IA3(or in the forthcoming Tau v. AdMech book) that TX-42s count as Piranhas and Tetras count as Pathfinders for the purposes of their formations.
Drones are moved to TROOP in the GW website.
That could be very good news for my drone themed army.
A jetpack unit as TROOP (objective secured) choice.
In the current edition, where speed and flexibility is very important, almost too good to be true...
ORicK wrote: Drones are moved to TROOP in the GW website.
That could be very good news for my drone themed army.
A jetpack unit as TROOP (objective secured) choice.
In the current edition, where speed and flexibility is very important, almost too good to be true...
So is the Cadre Fireblade, which would probably be too good.
Though I do like the idea of Drones as troops, since you could go for the JPI with lesser shooting potential, or super powerful shooting troops at the expensive of mobility.
I'd also like to see them do something with the Krootox and Kroot Hound, as right now it's really awkward. Maybe if they just said you could only take a unit of either for each unit of Kroot you took, and then had an option to reduce their cost if you put them in that Kroot unit, it would make them more playable, because as they stand now they're (almost) unusable.
Edit: Also, make Firesight Marksmen their own thing, they have really powerful Markerlights (thanks to their BS skill) and you can take up to three of them, but you're strapped with really awkward drone amounts. It would open up our Fast Attack options if we could take them as Heavy Supports without the drones, maybe even in larger numbers, as they can really apply those Markerlights. Heck, at least let the drones shoot at other units than them, because as they stand now they're more confusing than the Kroot with Krootox Riders.
The Cadre Fireblade has been located in the Troops section of the Games Workshop since he was first released. Atleast on the swedish website, I know because I looked for him multiple times only to find him there, Ad I always wonderd why they derped and put him in Troops..
The Gun Drones are new to the Troops section though.
Have there been any rumours about the Vespid? I mean something has to be done to them as they're currently just unplayable, which is sad since I like the little guys. I just can't believe that GW would leave them unchanged this time around.
Maybe if they just reduced the point costs and made them into troops, or allowed them to be taken without eating up FA slots, or pretty much anything.
I mean I think there are a million ways to make them better and more appealing options. A couple off the top of my head are:
Reduce points per model to 12-13 and offer them the ability to be taken as troop choices, that way they'd be an expensive troop choice with a lot of mobility and strong shooting, but weak armour and short range. It also just makes sense with the fluff as they're more accepted than the Kroot within the Tau society, but can't be troops?
Another possibility is to reduce cost and just give them more weapon options, as that way they'd have more potential utility with their movement. I think they're the only unit in the whole codex that only come with a total of one type of weapon that they can pick from. I know things like the Krootox and Sniper Drones only get one but one is an optional unit in a group with many options, and the other at least has options with the Marksmen to mix things up, this guys have one and only one choice. It wouldn't have to even be for every model, make it every Xth model can get a different gun, or one per squad, or something D:
Heck they can go a different direction and make them a very specialized unit choice that can stay high in cost and take an FA slot, but be a strong melee unit, something Tau doesn't have, and can use these guys at the expense of a little more points than other comparable options if they don't want to take allies to get those options.
It just always felt like the design of the Vespids was so lazy, when they're actually pretty interesting models that have good fluff.
Either give Vespids assault 2 on their weapons or Jet Infantry rule so they could JSJ around terrain. As they currently stand having the Jump Infantry rule makes them seem like an assault infantry unit but they lack the volume of attacks and strength to be worth much in CC.
Plastic models would go a long way as well but that's not a $100 giant mecha suit so GW won't make it.
Yea, plastic models would make me buy them probably just because I want to paint them. I can't really stand working with metal as the paint always chips :/.
It would actually be really cool to see them get JSJ, something I should have probably mentioned as right now like you said they basically get into close range to shoot, and then die because they're out in the open. I know they were supposed to be Marine Hunters originally, but right now their weapons are only slightly better than basic Pulse Rifles, due to their AP, but at double the cost and half the range, without benefiting from the myriad of buffs Fire Warriors do. It's insane.
Really, could you imagine if they got JSJ, the ability to put one Fusion/Plasma in the squad, and were able to be taken as troops for like 15 points each in a special army comp style of Tau that focused on that style of play? It would be like the Firesight Enclave but completely different as they'd have more units that were weaker, but utilized only models that could JSJ. It would be an amazingly fun army to play in terms of tactics because it would be mostly short ranged, but fast moving, and would require a lot of intelligent positioning in all phases of the game.
Tinkrr wrote: Yea, plastic models would make me buy them probably just because I want to paint them. I can't really stand working with metal as the paint always chips :/.
They haven't been metal for a few years but rather finecast and there isn't much chipping with that. Maybe some sagging if you leave it out in summer direct sunlight all day but not chipping (and the obvious casting flaws).
They haven't been metal for a few years but rather finecast and there isn't much chipping with that. Maybe some sagging if you leave it out in summer direct sunlight all day but not chipping (and the obvious casting flaws).
Oh, weird, had no idea. Though if I'd buy a model just to play around with painting I'd try to get it cheap, but I only see metallic ones on Ebay D:
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: I say give them rending in melee and an additional attack each. Let them really fill a niche.
Heck, give them a FNP save if they're in CC since like other bugs they can have limbs hacked off and keep going, but most bullets that wound would just hit their chest, or be large splashes of plasma/melta/explosion, and most likely and kill them anyway.
Vespid feel like a sorry attempt to give Tau a different unit without making it different....yea....
They have anti-marine guns and good enough BS to use it, but the rate of fire + range + cost = theyre pathetic at anti-marine armor ESPECIALLY since half the damn dex is superb at dealing with marines, either through sheer numbers (my playstyle) or high AP spam via plasma suits/riptides. Yet they have jumppacks, really high init, and hit and run. 3 rules that lead them to be a melee unit....but they have jack squat for strength, no armor or fnp, no melee weapon options, and crap leadership.
I dont get them. Theyre the only unit in the dex i literally cannot figure out how to use them properly. Ive used the fliers to a good outcome, and thats not exactly an easy thing to do lol. Vespid literally cant do anything another unit can do better and cheaper lol. Its not even FOC-related decision either since our FA is usually pretty empty while elite/heavy is typically full. They are so bad at both assault and shooting that using a FA instead of Elite or Heavy still doesnt justify them. And that was my thoughts when i try to use them, free up some Heavies by having a squad of Vespid instead of an Ionhead so i could bring some Sniper Drones. The drones did the Vespids' job three-fold.....just..what the hell lol
Really wish they would revamp them to be more melee. Even if they dont become godly, but just average, i'd be happy because of screening possibilities not to mention a unit for Farsight to join that actually WANTS HIM outside his deepstrike and massive suit squad rules. Farsight is so out of place i cant even play a theme'd army with him without ending up in a Farsight bomb...which i despise doing because its a dick move
Vespid are good in city fights, with dense terrain.
They can usually get good los blocking from enemy units, and with skilled flyer can jump around the difficult terrain without too much worry. Their mobility allows them to isolate enemy units, and shoot them. At least I think that is the theory anyway.
If I recall, they were added to the tau codex about the time cities of death came out...
I love the vespid, and agree...they are on the cusp of usefulness. I have a TON of them, and even did conversions to different wings, and love them - they are just terrible in normal games - I mainly use them in apoc, or dense city fights.
doktor_g wrote: "doktor_g's law of new 40k codicies" predicts that if the models are not owned by doktor_g, they will get a giant buff in the next codex.
Talys' law of new 40k codicies states that if Talys is modelling that faction, the codex will get a giant nerf for every unit in the next codex
Case in point... my last 3 factions, in order, were: Grey Knights, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels. Bwahahahaaha
Okay, technically, I mess around with Eldar models, and they've never really been nerfed. But my Eldar don't get the kind of love that my fave factions get, so maybe that's why. There's some kind of inverse relationship thing going. As Talys' modelling efforts to a faction increases towards infinity, the power level of that faction decreases towards zero. At least nobody will ever accuse me of playing OP factions.
I feel like the only person whos ever had luck with vespids. They always made their points back for me whenever I used them, hell usually the strain leader alone made its points back for me, my one strain leader has wracked up a kill tally (in melee no less) that includes multiple chapter masters, I dunno if I got lucky or what, but damn.
chaos0xomega wrote: I feel like the only person whos ever had luck with vespids. They always made their points back for me whenever I used them, hell usually the strain leader alone made its points back for me, my one strain leader has wracked up a kill tally (in melee no less) that includes multiple chapter masters, I dunno if I got lucky or what, but damn.
No, just the strainleader. The rest of the unit usually dies right after they let off their first volley of shots (which I guess is to say they perform roughly average), but the strainleader... my god, its a monster. I look at its stats and I cant figure out how it can be, but it is.
chaos0xomega wrote: I feel like the only person whos ever had luck with vespids. They always made their points back for me whenever I used them, hell usually the strain leader alone made its points back for me, my one strain leader has wracked up a kill tally (in melee no less) that includes multiple chapter masters, I dunno if I got lucky or what, but damn.
You are not alone here. Whenever I field them, they always make their points back and I feel like I can gift them the game MVP, most times. In my last outing, they deep struck in turn two, killed a unit of marines, claimed me some objectives (while blocking opponents), wrecked a furioso in one volley, and then claimed the last objective to save primary. With a markerlight boost, they are even more incredible.
Do you think that there will be other arms released for the Tau titan down the road? And I'm not talking about just the melta one. When I saw them selling arms separately I thought about the warhound titan.
chaos0xomega wrote: I feel like the only person whos ever had luck with vespids. They always made their points back for me whenever I used them, hell usually the strain leader alone made its points back for me, my one strain leader has wracked up a kill tally (in melee no less) that includes multiple chapter masters, I dunno if I got lucky or what, but damn.
You are not alone here. Whenever I field them, they always make their points back and I feel like I can gift them the game MVP, most times. In my last outing, they deep struck in turn two, killed a unit of marines, claimed me some objectives (while blocking opponents), wrecked a furioso in one volley, and then claimed the last objective to save primary. With a markerlight boost, they are even more incredible.
You're playing bad lists if they are doing well against them
I dont think the problem is a bad list when your strain leader consistently kills chapter masters in cc, thats really more luck, and possibly just a small sample size (a dozen or so games total as I havent played in almost 2 editions). The only time my strain leader didnt survive a game, he was barbecued by a IG sentinel with heavy flamer.
chaos0xomega wrote: I feel like the only person whos ever had luck with vespids. They always made their points back for me whenever I used them, hell usually the strain leader alone made its points back for me, my one strain leader has wracked up a kill tally (in melee no less) that includes multiple chapter masters, I dunno if I got lucky or what, but damn.
You are not alone here. Whenever I field them, they always make their points back and I feel like I can gift them the game MVP, most times. In my last outing, they deep struck in turn two, killed a unit of marines, claimed me some objectives (while blocking opponents), wrecked a furioso in one volley, and then claimed the last objective to save primary. With a markerlight boost, they are even more incredible.
You're playing bad lists if they are doing well against them
Not smart to make wide assumptions. Just because it's not meta does not make it bad.
Personally, I wish they would take Kroot and Vespids out of the codex, replace them with something else (Earth Hunters and Air jetpack respectively) and move them to another book calle Tau Auxillaries.
If that was done, we could see a whole line of Tau allies for different slots - Vespids, Kroot, Hrud, whatever GW wanted to throw in.
Earth Hunters..? Earth caste Tau are builders and scientists, They dont go into war. The closest they get to going into war is landing on a mostly converted planet to build a Tau city and "recruitment" center. They dont have soldiers or fighters..
As someone who likes taken the side road when it comes to meta, I can agree that something not being meta doesn't make it bad. However, when you look at the numbers the Vespids posses, they're just bad.
The problem is that they're high point cost models, with rather squishy stats, come with short range weapons that have short range, only one shot, and the same strength as the most basic of Tau weapons. Granted, they gain AP3, but that's a really strange middle ground as most other units can compensate for that with the sheer volume of shots they can put out, or have a better AP that can actually take on things with a 2+ better. Now the other unique thing they have is the high initiative, but again, they only have one attack each and the same Strength as a Fire Warrior, while also having worse WS than a Kroot.
So yea, that's what makes them bad, not that they're not meta, but because you're paying for things that simply contradict each other. Had they had AP2, or better melee stats, or well anything, I could see some niche use for them, but as it stands they work against themselves more than anything.
Merellin wrote: Earth Hunters..? Earth caste Tau are builders and scientists, They dont go into war. The closest they get to going into war is landing on a mostly converted planet to build a Tau city and "recruitment" center. They dont have soldiers or fighters..
Yeah, I know. It's time to change the fluff on that. While the Tau may have overall castes - and Fire are the warriors - I say have "elements of battle" that are grouped by elementals. Air would be skimmers and fliers, Fire would be fast and hard hitting units (primarily ranged), Earth would be tough/defensive units excelling at close combat (carbines & melee) and Water would be battlesuits like the Riptide, KV and bigger suits.
I just think its dumb to exclude three of the elements on castes that will never appear on the battlefield in what is a tabletop wargame.
Merellin wrote: Earth Hunters..? Earth caste Tau are builders and scientists, They dont go into war. The closest they get to going into war is landing on a mostly converted planet to build a Tau city and "recruitment" center. They dont have soldiers or fighters..
Yeah, I know. It's time to change the fluff on that. While the Tau may have overall castes - and Fire are the warriors - I say have "elements of battle" that are grouped by elementals. Air would be skimmers and fliers, Fire would be fast and hard hitting units (primarily ranged), Earth would be tough/defensive units excelling at close combat (carbines & melee) and Water would be battlesuits like the Riptide, KV and bigger suits.
I just think its dumb to exclude three of the elements on castes that will never appear on the battlefield in what is a tabletop wargame.
Why? It's world building. I'd rather there was background for Tau society as a whole, than either the whole Tau society being about war (we don't need more races like that) or just having background for the war aspects of the Tau. And the other Castes are present in some way, earth especially, all the equipment, suits, tanks etc are built by the earth caste.
Well, rather than continue down that road, what I'd like to see is the Vespid models replaced with Fire Warriors with some sort of jump/jet pack. Instead of the big blocky imperial engines either a gilder-like pack with jets or an otherwise small jetpack (something kind of like the one from James Bond, but a little less bulky).
Of course, I've also longed to see the IG roughriders replaced with dirt bikes and would rather the Taurox was a halftrack...
I'd be fine with a Tau codex and a "Tau Empire" codex that expanded on all the races of the Tau Empire, as that's a large draw for me when it comes to the army. They just feel like a true empire.
Merellin wrote: Earth Hunters..? Earth caste Tau are builders and scientists, They dont go into war. The closest they get to going into war is landing on a mostly converted planet to build a Tau city and "recruitment" center. They dont have soldiers or fighters..
Yeah, I know. It's time to change the fluff on that. While the Tau may have overall castes - and Fire are the warriors - I say have "elements of battle" that are grouped by elementals. Air would be skimmers and fliers, Fire would be fast and hard hitting units (primarily ranged), Earth would be tough/defensive units excelling at close combat (carbines & melee) and Water would be battlesuits like the Riptide, KV and bigger suits.
I just think its dumb to exclude three of the elements on castes that will never appear on the battlefield in what is a tabletop wargame.
I'd honestly hate if they did that.
A large draw for me when it comes to the Tau isn't that they have peaceful approaches, but because they are very clever about how the conduct their conquests. Think about how amazingly efficient the Water Caste must be at their job if they can leave as ambassadors and have multiple imperial worlds handed over to them without any force. That just puts the Tau on such a higher level than most of the forces out there, and shows just how amazingly intelligent and cunning they can truly be.
The same goes for the Earth Caste, who are so devoted in their task, and are so specialized, that they can create advanced technology in a very short time. As ImAGeek said, you can always feel their presence on the battlefield, without them being there.
So yea, it would be tragic if they took all these awesome aspects and turned them into generic elemental warriors that we've seen a million times over in other forms of media.
Agreed. Making the Tau just another grimdark species whose entire species is geared towards grimdark war rather than a young and thriving society where not EVERYONE is grimdark is kinda nice.
Actually the Air caste does appear on the battlefield. The flyers. That symbol on the top of them is the Air caste symbol, and they are said to have Air caste pilots in the fluff. Just sayin'.
As for the Vespid discussion, I think their weapons need to either be made Assault 2 or Rapid Fire and they need to be increased in toughness/strength. After all, insects, for their size, are some of the most robust creatures on Earth, so insectoid aliens should be pretty tough.
vitae_drinker wrote: Agreed. Making the Tau just another grimdark species whose entire species is geared towards grimdark war rather than a young and thriving society where not EVERYONE is grimdark is kinda nice.
Their entire species is geared towards grimdark war though. Absolutely everything that goes on in the Tau Empire is for the purpose of aggressive, military expansion. They have no culture whatsoever.
There hasn't been a single bit of background material supporting the Tau Empire as anything less than a war machine.
They don't kill every alien they encounter, but brainwashing and slavery are basically the same thing. They are trying to conquer the galaxy by any means necessary.
What you have to understand is there is a difference between expansion and being a "war machine". Many of the worlds they claim are won by the water caste, not the fire caste. It's not military expansion, it's expansion, period.
Right, more of a "manifest destiny" than anything else. Similar to the Great Crusade prior to the Horus Heresy (depending on who was writing the book, though). If a planet joined the Imperium willingly, they didn't send in the military. Kinda like the Tau, currently.
And there really has been no straight out "And the Ethereals mentally enslave everyone they meet" spelled out. Maybe they're just REALLY persuasive.
vitae_drinker wrote: Agreed. Making the Tau just another grimdark species whose entire species is geared towards grimdark war rather than a young and thriving society where not EVERYONE is grimdark is kinda nice.
Their entire species is geared towards grimdark war though. Absolutely everything that goes on in the Tau Empire is for the purpose of aggressive, military expansion. They have no culture whatsoever.
There hasn't been a single bit of background material supporting the Tau Empire as anything less than a war machine.
They don't kill every alien they encounter, but brainwashing and slavery are basically the same thing. They are trying to conquer the galaxy by any means necessary.
Of course they have culture. 'Aggressive expansion' doesn't preclude any form of culture. They aren't entirely geared towards war, that's just what we see most of because this is a wargame.
I don't think it's a matter of them not being grimdark, it's that they're more sinister than they are brute force. Think of it this way, most races in 40k are basically brute force destroyers who would rather destroy all others than utilize them, the Tau don't care if someone is different as long as they can provide them with a benefit.
Basically, in the grimdark world of 40k, the Tau are more of a Little Finger army than they are say Stannis Borathian or Lannisters. They can be extremely brutal if they wish to, but generally go with a more political method.
vitae_drinker wrote: Right, more of a "manifest destiny" than anything else. Similar to the Great Crusade prior to the Horus Heresy (depending on who was writing the book, though). If a planet joined the Imperium willingly, they didn't send in the military. Kinda like the Tau, currently.
And there really has been no straight out "And the Ethereals mentally enslave everyone they meet" spelled out. Maybe they're just REALLY persuasive.
Actually it sounded a lot more like they offered a lot of toys to the people, helped them rid the political opposition (that conveniently opposed the Tau), and then slowly implemented rules to promote joining the Tau empire over resisting it.
In other words, they're not going around and threatening people with invasion, but rather slowly building a Starbucks around them so that they don't have the desire to rebel or oppose the Tau. I mean they have a ton of advanced technology and more, despite being a super young race, so when they show up on war stricken worlds, kill an enemy of their own, and then provide a bunch of luxuries to the people on that world, they'll probably gain a lot of favour without having to threaten. They basically conquer a lot of worlds in the manner that you gain allies with city states in Civ 5, sure they might be their own entity, but they provide you with army units, resources you want, and more... You own them in all but name.
maceria wrote: Only the Vespids are totally enslaved. Thats pretty clear cut, with the special helmets and all.
That's not actually fully in the lore, is it? As far as I remember that was stated to just be whisper and rumour that it could be the case, but no evidence was ever found to support it. I mean I wouldn't put it past them to do something like that, but it seemed more like the Vespid just knew they could either die or join up, and happened to have somewhat similar beliefs to the Tau.
I always viewed the Vespid helm thing as more of a conspiracy theory than actual fact, which was most likely that the Vespids were partially bought out, partially strong armed, and partially just wanted to join. I mean the Vespid are very loyal to their leaders and they don't seem stupid, as much as very alien, so I wouldn't put it past them to go "Well, we could be obliterated, or we could join these other guys who give us some cool tech and kind of believe the same stuff as us... Yea we like not dying. Oh hey, they are pretty cool and have a giant space army, while we're basically all from one planet, yea better not piss them off. Oh! And did we mention they'll kill our political resistance for us, so we can rule?"
Never explicitly confirmed. Just that Water negotiations weren't going well for years, then the Etherials had a special helmet to put on the strain leaders, and now the Vespids work for the greater good giving troops and their highly coveted crystals. The codex says that it may have been then case, but there is *wink wink* no evidence.
I think perhaps the first of the Vespid may have been mind controlled if only to establish communication and then slowly but surely they just chose to accept us with some good help from their leaders.
There is some interesting technology only the vespid can use. Their wings allow their guns to be as strong as they are.
There has been no sign they are a hive mind like the tyranids. If that were so all we would need is a single helmet to communicate with them. When it clearly states we made the helmets to communicate with them.
It would be hard pressed too make and forcefully or peacefully apply helmets to an entire species.
maceria wrote: Never explicitly confirmed. Just that Water negotiations weren't going well for years, then the Etherials had a special helmet to put on the strain leaders, and now the Vespids work for the greater good giving troops and their highly coveted crystals. The codex says that it may have been then case, but there is *wink wink* no evidence.
The codex says:
"When the Water caste first encountered the Vespids, they had many difficulties - the insectoid mindset seemed too radically different to grasp or reason with. However, at the instruction of the Ethereals, the Earth caste supplied a communication interface device that facilitated a much greater degree of understanding between the two races."
It sounds more like the Water Caste wasn't able to really make any progress with them due to personal difficulties of understand the Vespids, and were about to call in the Fire Caste to deal with the situation, but the Ethereals stepped in and saw there was a better way to accomplish this. You know, the Water Caste can't really do much if they can't communicate with a species in an efficient manner, and it sounds like the Vespids speak in a massively different way than the Tau, since they use their antennae to communicate instead of comm-sets and the like... Can you imagine trying to talk to someone who doesn't use language but rather a series of intricate twitches?
It would also be really weird if the Tau armed the Vespid with the same crystals they coveted if they had simply enslaved the Vespids. I just always read it as those who view the Tau in a negative light believe the Vespids were enslaved, when in reality they probably just made a rational decision, based on knowledge of how out powered they were, and how much technology the Tau supplied them with.
Edit: The helmets were also upgraded more than once, so it's more likely that they were trying to decipher the Vespid languages instead of simply mind controlling them, and without the aid of the Earth Caste the Water Caste couldn't ever expect to make any progress.
I'm sure it was a mix of willing an unwilling, and the willing probably had a good argument that they would be most likely nuked from orbit and then invaded if they didn't accept the Tau, but if they did accept the Tau they'd get more cool stuff.
I think it depends on what you mean by "next week".
This week's release is Slaughterpriest and Skullgrinder (technically not out for another day).
Saturday 10/3's release (technically, "next week", since it's 8 days away...) is definitely Skarbrand. But of course we'll see the model by around Tuesday 9/29, and the WD with that. I dunno what's in that issue, but it can't be Skarbrand, since he's on this week's issue
Saturday 10/10's release sounds like it will be Stormsurge (hence "rising storm), which sounds like 2 weeks away, but the WD and some models should leak closer to 10/6... which feels closer than 2 weeks
Also, my bad. I said, "the Skarbrand issue", which is ambiguous -- when I actually meant, the issue of WD that was being released on Skarbrand's week (not the issue where Skarbrand is on the cover of WD). Are we confused yet??
Sorry. I'm just excited. Too long since 40k models!
tbh that's something i get a bit confused each week, cause i usualy use the term releases for both pre-order/real release haha xD
well, usualy if i say "X Y Z is next week", i mean pre-orders^^
(that's also even more confusing as you get the WD pictures ~ monday the week of pre-orders, i get my releases normally ~ thursday and the GW release date is a saturday oO)
Atia wrote: tbh that's something i get a bit confused each week, cause i usualy use the term releases for both pre-order/real release haha xD
well, usualy if i say "X Y Z is next week", i mean pre-orders^^
(that's also even more confusing as you get the WD pictures ~ monday the week of pre-orders, i get my releases normally ~ thursday and the GW release date is a saturday oO)
Yeah LOL. I know exactly what you mean In my mind, Skarbrand is already "this week" and Stormsurge is "next week". Even though it's not really
As soon as we see it on a leaked WD cover, it will be more real, hehe. And then I can obsess over what's coming.. uh.. next week!
As far as I understand the background material, the worlds and species that have joined the Tau Empire have been very happy about their decision. The 40K galaxy is hostile, and it isn't easy to go at it alone. Likewise, many worlds are rather part of the Tau Empire than the Imperium of Man. Said that, I don't really understand the discussion about slavery and brainwashing in this thread. Are you saying that spreading democracy in the real world is also brainwashing aka spreading democracy and asking nations to be allies is also brainwashing and/or slavery? Creating wealth in countries where previously there was none, is also brainwashing and slavery? I mean what are we talking about here?
The Tau are undoubtedly the only good faction in the entire 40K. Sure there's shades of grey there, but there's shades of grey in the real world too. Good guys are never that good. But they're better than everyone else.
The Ghostkeel is much smaller than the Stormsurge. It may be a thing like the Tyrannocyte where you can make a Stormsurge or a Ghostkeel and a Riptide, though.
Verviedi wrote: The Ghostkeel is much smaller than the Stormsurge. It may be a thing like the Tyrannocyte where you can make a Stormsurge or a Ghostkeel and a Riptide, though.
No it won't, the Stormsurge is bigger than the riptide (or at least has completely new legs and so much over the torso that there's maybe one riptide sprue in there). They're almost certainly 3 different kits.
I thought the Ghostkeel and Stormsurge were part of the same kit?
Unlikely. We have the White Dwarf cover for October 10th, which is the pre-order date of the Ghostkeel.
The added sentence of an exclusive "minigame" for the Stormsurge suggest that the Stormsurge will go on pre-order prior to the leaked White Dwarf from the 10th (almost certainly the week before that).
Yeah, it looks like they're on a cycle of WD covers previewing the next release, rather than featuring the current release. For instance WD 87 is September 26, featuring Skarbrand, which sells October 3.
Maybe WD88 is Oct 3, featuring Stormsurge on the cover. But even if so, it won't be available til Oct 10.
We know WD89 is Oct 10, featuring Ghostkeel on the cover.
And then there's still the Codex! And the commander. And fire warriors.
Regarding games and scenarios in White Dwarf. There have been mini-games in WDW focussing on miniatures which were only available for preorder the same week
Therion wrote: As far as I understand the background material, the worlds and species that have joined the Tau Empire have been very happy about their decision. The 40K galaxy is hostile, and it isn't easy to go at it alone. Likewise, many worlds are rather part of the Tau Empire than the Imperium of Man. Said that, I don't really understand the discussion about slavery and brainwashing in this thread. Are you saying that spreading democracy in the real world is also brainwashing aka spreading democracy and asking nations to be allies is also brainwashing and/or slavery? Creating wealth in countries where previously there was none, is also brainwashing and slavery? I mean what are we talking about here?
The Tau are undoubtedly the only good faction in the entire 40K. Sure there's shades of grey there, but there's shades of grey in the real world too. Good guys are never that good. But they're better than everyone else.
Not quite. I mean, those that joined the Tau are mostly happy with the decision (there is a lot of dissent amongst the Kroot though), but the choice being made is pretty clearly 'join or die'. Its stated pretty clearly the Tau have wiped out entire species for refusing to join the Empire.
Read the last edition codex again, theres a bit in there about how they exterminated a species known as the "Reek" for refusing to join the empire. I think they refer to it specifically as the 'genocidal campaign to exterminate the Reek' in the codex, IIRC it was part of the Space Pope or Shadowsuns fluff.
You mean the "hateful reek"? That fit's under "stuff like the orks and hurd".
Edit: and you have to remember, just like the orks and hurd, they aren't confined to one system or something, but a multitude. There are still Reek controlled planets.
You dont know who or what the Reek are, nor what or why they were termed 'hateful'. Given that they were being deemed 'hateful' by the Tau, it could very well be that they were 'hateful' because (and only because) they refused to join the Empire (after all, why would the Tau offer a verminous species like the Hrud or Orks entry into the Empire otherwise?)
Their official name is the "Noisome Reek". That should tell you something about how they are viewed.
And they were conquering planets as well. They were a threat, and were defeated. And not even completely, they were driven out of Si'coa, but not destroyed.
'genocidal campaign of extermination' I believe is the actual quote from the Codex... that implies a whole lot of complete destruction, and not just being 'driven out'.
P.S. - Noisome means "having an extremely offensive smell" as does "Reek", if anything, the viewpoint of others on the species is that they smell bad. Doesn't mean much else. Though Im not sure how 'official' that name is since it appears nowhere else in the fluff as far as I can tell, and to my knowledge the only people who would know of them would be Tau.
Ah, well it mentions them in the 5th edition rule-book, the 4th edition tau empire, and a book called "Star of Damocles".
On the matter at hand it says.
Members of this race are known to have occupied the Si'coa system that fell under the dominion of the Tau Empire. This was until the arrival of Aun'Va who instilled within the Fire Warriors a righteous rage which they turned against the hateful Reek which led to them being eliminated at Si'coa.[2]
chaos0xomega wrote: after all, why would the Tau offer a verminous species like the Hrud or Orks entry into the Empire otherwise?
It is in their racial alignment. We are talking about a race that was triple-crossed by the Dark Eldar so hard they lost a whole planet. For each Fire/Earth/Water/Air/Ethereal caste wonder you have ten blown up reactors/messed up military ops/backfiring diplomatic deals/whatever in the Tau Empire.
The two are not mutually exclusive. I mean, you won't blow up a moon with your experimental fusion reactor if you are hopelessly naive. You do it if you are hopelessly stupid. However, you need to be both hopelessly naive and hopelessly stupid to allow the Dark Eldar to mess you up.
Or you are working with unstable mechanics. Just because stuff fails doesn't mean you are stupid. It's called experimental for a reason. And remember, I think it was around a dozen experimental systems unveiled that fight, and only the reactor was a failure (although I have to wonder whoa fusion reactor was experimental when they have dark matter ones, almost assuredly far more complicated). And as far as the DE, how could they know, never having met them before?
"How dare the Tau not realize the species they just met who offered their assistance like theTau would was just out to @#$@ them over? How stupid could they be?" /sarc
ZergSmasher wrote: As for the Vespid discussion, I think their weapons need to either be made Assault 2 or Rapid Fire and they need to be increased in toughness/strength. After all, insects, for their size, are some of the most robust creatures on Earth, so insectoid aliens should be pretty tough.
They are tough because exoskeletons are great when you are tiny.
Exoskeleton performance ceases to excel and rapidly plunges through the floor when you get too big, hence why even the largest prehistorical insects were fairly small.
I thought the Ghostkeel and Stormsurge were part of the same kit?
Unlikely. We have the White Dwarf cover for October 10th, which is the pre-order date of the Ghostkeel.
The added sentence of an exclusive "minigame" for the Stormsurge suggest that the Stormsurge will go on pre-order prior to the leaked White Dwarf from the 10th (almost certainly the week before that).
Spoiler:
That's what I was thinking, but I was under the impression that the Ghostkeel shared a box with the Stormsurge/Riptide/whatever else gets put in there.
Glad to know that's not the case, as I might get one to paint.
ZergSmasher wrote: As for the Vespid discussion, I think their weapons need to either be made Assault 2 or Rapid Fire and they need to be increased in toughness/strength. After all, insects, for their size, are some of the most robust creatures on Earth, so insectoid aliens should be pretty tough.
They are tough because exoskeletons are great when you are tiny.
Exoskeleton performance ceases to excel and rapidly plunges through the floor when you get too big, hence why even the largest prehistorical insects were fairly small.
OTOH, that didn't stop the Tyranids, I guess...
The main reason insects are small is a lack of circulatory system. The largest prehistorical insects were able to grow large because the atmosphere had a much higher oxygen content than it does now. Oxygen was able to directly diffuse much further into their body because the potential difference was larger. As the oxygen content got smaller, so did the bugs.
Actually, the only thing that stops an exoskeleton based organism from getting huge is the amount of oxygen in the atmosphere. Those ancient bugs would have been truly massive if they needed to be to get food. But with everything being ferns instead of trees it wasn't needed.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: Actually, the only thing that stops an exoskeleton based organism from getting huge is the amount of oxygen in the atmosphere. Those ancient bugs would have been truly massive if they needed to be to get food. But with everything being ferns instead of trees it wasn't needed.
Even though I was aware of this fact, it never occurred to me how absolutely terrifying it was until just now. *shudder*
Earth insects at giant size irrelevant, GW is solidly in the camp that space insects scale up in size and hardness.
If the Stormsurge gun is a single shot, direct fire, D gun, then it should help with Knights, but not too much. A trio of dual fusion suits (if that's even an option in the new codex) will probably still do better. But we still haven't seen any leaks.
maceria wrote: Earth insects at giant size irrelevant, GW is solidly in the camp that space insects scale up in size and hardness.
If the Stormsurge gun is a single shot, direct fire, D gun, then it should help with Knights, but not too much. A trio of dual fusion suits (if that's even an option in the new codex) will probably still do better. But we still haven't seen any leaks.
As it now stands, speculation is that the Stormsurge will be anti-infantry as its shoulder-guns look a lot like oversized pulse rifles/carbines.
Personally I can see the missile stubs being massive pie-platey apocalypse barrage (anti infantry?), and the giant shoulder pulse weapon as an antitank shot (small blast?). Maybe with the ability to fire each at different targets.
maceria wrote: Earth insects at giant size irrelevant, GW is solidly in the camp that space insects scale up in size and hardness.
If the Stormsurge gun is a single shot, direct fire, D gun, then it should help with Knights, but not too much. A trio of dual fusion suits (if that's even an option in the new codex) will probably still do better. But we still haven't seen any leaks.
As it now stands, speculation is that the Stormsurge will be anti-infantry as its shoulder-guns look a lot like oversized pulse rifles/carbines.
Yeah, I'm basing the idea the Suit Storm will have a D weapon on codex Taus Ken doll style lack of D, coupled with GWs latest releases.
Why....? We have tons of anti-infantry. Maybe it's smaller supplemental weapons sure but not the main missile battery which is clearly larger than a HYMP and the Rail cannon thing on top is likely going to be Str D.
My Guess:
340-390 Points GMC
2x Super Heavy Missile Pods Str 8 AP 3 4 Shots
1x Rail Pulse Gun STR D AP 1
Probably some sort of alternate Mode for it that lets it shoot twice.
2x Smart Missile System
2x Anti Armor Missiles Str9 AP 2 2Shots
1x Twin Linked Burst Canon can probably overwatch at BS2
Gamgee wrote: Why....? We have tons of anti-infantry. Maybe it's smaller supplemental weapons sure but not the main missile battery which is clearly larger than a HYMP and the Rail cannon thing on top is likely going to be Str D.
My Guess:
340-390 Points GMC
2x Super Heavy Missile Pods Str 8 AP 3 4 Shots
1x Rail Pulse Gun STR D AP 1
Probably some sort of alternate Mode for it that lets it shoot twice.
2x Smart Missile System
2x Anti Armor Missiles Str9 AP 2 2Shots
1x Twin Linked Burst Canon can probably overwatch at BS2
Toughness 8 7 Wounds
Nova Reactor stuff
That wasn't a serious post was it? Just a wish list...
1. Games Workshops need to sell OP rules.
2. Their utter lack of creativity when designing weapon stats.
All too often they want to sell better versions of good weapons that are used already so they can keep the money train rolling. This fits that creativityless void but is still reliably better than existing weapons and "cool" to a lot of people. Then just undercost the model and away we go.
Someone pay me their monthly salary please. Pretty please?
Edit
It's a serious guess. Oh but it will be bad in melee. Have some cool 5+ invulnerability shield. Also it will likely need to use its stabilizers in some way. Probably can't fire any of its guns if it moves. Except the SMS and Burst Canon.
Ha! I hear you. A bottle of Lagavulin and a keyboard binge and I could hash a pretty solid rules draft. The hard part is play testing and refinement, which GW seems to notice is hard as well.
Gamgee wrote: Why....? We have tons of anti-infantry. Maybe it's smaller supplemental weapons sure but not the main missile battery which is clearly larger than a HYMP and the Rail cannon thing on top is likely going to be Str D.
My Guess:
340-390 Points GMC
2x Super Heavy Missile Pods Str 8 AP 3 4 Shots
1x Rail Pulse Gun STR D AP 1
Probably some sort of alternate Mode for it that lets it shoot twice.
2x Smart Missile System
2x Anti Armor Missiles Str9 AP 2 2Shots
1x Twin Linked Burst Canon can probably overwatch at BS2
Toughness 8 7 Wounds
Nova Reactor stuff
Drop the Smart Missile Systems and Burst Cannons and replace with the Vigilance Defence System seen on the KX139 Ta’unar Supremacy Armour.
Except the ta'unar is modeled with the system. One on each side.
The stormsurge is different. It doesn't have the emplacements for the vigilance. It's lacking a second busrt cannon. If it had the second burst canon you would likely be right.
Therion wrote: As far as I understand the background material, the worlds and species that have joined the Tau Empire have been very happy about their decision. The 40K galaxy is hostile, and it isn't easy to go at it alone. Likewise, many worlds are rather part of the Tau Empire than the Imperium of Man. Said that, I don't really understand the discussion about slavery and brainwashing in this thread. Are you saying that spreading democracy in the real world is also brainwashing aka spreading democracy and asking nations to be allies is also brainwashing and/or slavery? Creating wealth in countries where previously there was none, is also brainwashing and slavery? I mean what are we talking about here?
The Tau are undoubtedly the only good faction in the entire 40K. Sure there's shades of grey there, but there's shades of grey in the real world too. Good guys are never that good. But they're better than everyone else.
The slavery and mind control discussion is specifically about the Vespid, because in the codex it states:
"There have been whispers alluding to a hidden connection between the Vespids' calm acceptance of annexation and the interface helms given to their leaders, though no evidence to support such claims has ever been forthcoming."
Which is intended to be very open for debate so that people can form their own opinion of what actually happened.
Personally, I don't think classifying anyone as "good or bad" is a good way to look at it, because everyone is good in their own eyes and is just trying to further their own version of "the greater good", the Tau just happen to be the most intelligent about it.
Just because we don't see it doesn't mean it's not there, or not an option. Suit Storm does have a placement under the missile arms that could be used for some point defense, which would be helpful since it doesn't have arms.
Although, it already has SMS on top of the missile arms.
ZergSmasher wrote: As for the Vespid discussion, I think their weapons need to either be made Assault 2 or Rapid Fire and they need to be increased in toughness/strength. After all, insects, for their size, are some of the most robust creatures on Earth, so insectoid aliens should be pretty tough.
They are tough because exoskeletons are great when you are tiny.
Exoskeleton performance ceases to excel and rapidly plunges through the floor when you get too big, hence why even the largest prehistorical insects were fairly small.
OTOH, that didn't stop the Tyranids, I guess...
Two words: Coconut Crabs
Though as a whole lobsters and crabs can get pretty large for creatures that have exoskeletons.
ImAGeek wrote: They're amphibious though (or fully marine in some cases) is it something to do with that?
Coconut crabs can't actually swim and drown if they end up in water, that's mostly why I chose them over potentially larger sea based arthropod. They also climb trees and stuff.
ImAGeek wrote: They're amphibious though (or fully marine in some cases) is it something to do with that?
Coconut crabs can't actually swim and drown if they end up in water, that's mostly why I chose them over potentially larger sea based arthropod. They also climb trees and stuff.
It might have to do with the fact they have Branchiostegal lungs, which are more or less external lungs adapted from gills, meaning that it can probably intake oxygen more efficiently than most conventional exoskeletal critters/insects.
ImAGeek wrote: They're amphibious though (or fully marine in some cases) is it something to do with that?
Coconut crabs can't actually swim and drown if they end up in water, that's mostly why I chose them over potentially larger sea based arthropod. They also climb trees and stuff.
Oh I knew they climbed trees and were on land a lot but I assumed they were still somewhat amphibious, interesting!
ImAGeek wrote: They're amphibious though (or fully marine in some cases) is it something to do with that?
Coconut crabs can't actually swim and drown if they end up in water, that's mostly why I chose them over potentially larger sea based arthropod. They also climb trees and stuff.
Oh I knew they climbed trees and were on land a lot but I assumed they were still somewhat amphibious, interesting!
They're super weird, as they basically start as hermit crabs and then as they get older they develop a normal shell and don't need to use the shell of other animals.
I wonder if other army discussions cover this many topics? Just goes to show you Tau are still the most intelligent
Getting off the topic of large land-dwelling arthropods (shudders)
I don't think that the Ghostkeel is the size of the Riptide. If anything, I'd say it around the size of the current Battlesuit Commander. The official photos from GW are misleading for the following reasons:
1. Lack of height references in the background. The background is an artistic one, and contains nothing the viewer could use to independently determine the subject's height. The models in the background are visibly out-of-focus, and we don't know how far the background models are removed from the foreground. With enough distance, you could make an Imperial Knight seem smaller than the Ghostkeel.
2. Low angle of shots. In the first picture (Ghostkeel with Stealth Suits in background) the shot has clearly been taken from below the model's waist. In the second shot (Ghostkeel with Fire Warriors in foreground) a similar effect is achieved by having the Ghostkeel stand on an angled piece of terrain. This technique is one with which GW is quite familiar. How often do you see special characters tower over the troops in front of them, despite not being much taller in real life? Movies also do this trick a lot to make people appear larger or smaller than they actually are.
3. Potential composite image. Speaking as someone who has experience with Photoshop, the images we've seen of all the new models could be composite images. This is an easy way of saying that the various models and elements in focus, in the foreground, and in the background are separate images that have been stitched and filtered to make it appear that they are one whole image. If done by a professional at a suitably high resolution this would be very hard to detect, especially with the low-resolution images that have been posted so far.
I'm not saying that GW is intentionally trying to deceive people. These are just standard photographic techniques that GW and the industry as a whole commonly use for dramatic effect. But until we get some solid and unedited comparison shots with the Ghostkeel, I don't think people should just to conclusions about the model's size.
TheNewBlood wrote: I don't think that the Ghostkeel is the size of the Riptide. If anything, I'd say it around the size of the current Battlesuit Commander.
I hope you're right, because I don't really like the bigger suits and that would make it the perfect size for me.
I think the Ghostkeel is probably a little larger than a regular Crisis Suit and probably not far from a Crisis Commander size. If you look at the picture where the Stealth Suits are closer to it, you can see that they are about waist level, which is the same point a Fire Warrior reaches on a regular Crisis Suit if it's on one of those drone clear base pegs.
TheNewBlood wrote: Getting off the topic of large land-dwelling arthropods (shudders)
It looks like it'd be noticeably larger than a Crisis battlesuit, probably the same mass as a Broadside but standing up straighter.
From pictures (see below), we know commander suits are larger than Crisis suits and roughly the same size as Broadsides, so the Ghostkeel being about that size would make sense.
Spoiler:
Also, give that it's apparently a stealth suit variant, it being overly large wouldn't make a lot of sense.
Nah, the Ghostkeel is a big guy. Just look at the relative size of the fusion blasters on its shoulders. The suit must be larger than the Broadside, maybe reaching up to the Riptide's chest or at least close to it.
I think the size increment would mirror the three basic suits': Stealth (Ghostkeel) -> Crisis (Riptide) -> Broadside (Stormsurge)
Ghostkeel almost the same size torso as Stormsurge (minus shoulder cannon). Just look at the picture on the back of the WD; Stormsurge is right beside him.
Damn, I'm away for a couple of weeks and suddenly all that Tau stuff.
Humph, I really hope Ghostkeel (oh man I hate that name) is smaller than the Riptide, but it doesn't seem so. As someone pointed out above, he even seems close in size to the Stormsurge. At least he looks kinda OK.
The Stormsurge suit... Man, I hated the Riptide already. But hey whatever floats your boat, I see a lot of people like it. To me, the Stormsurge has nothing in common with the Tau style. I will maybe consider buying it to use the parts for conversions (some of them are cool) and build a vehicle off it, but I won't assemble such an abomination.
The new FWs - well, I really really liked the old sculpt. Fire warriors were what got me into Tau. I am not saying no to a rework though, some of the parts in the current FW kit are terribly sculpted (some legs) and could use some love. What I hope is that they will retain their characteristic traits, and I will for sure use both new and old sculpts.
The Tau'nar supremacy armor... well, buildings should not be put on legs and given arms.
Talys wrote: Ghostkeel almost the same size torso as Stormsurge (minus shoulder cannon). Just look at the picture on the back of the WD; Stormsurge is right beside him.
Spoiler:
No it isn't. It's further back. Plus the Ghostkeel is on a higher bit of terrain.
You can clearly see the stealth suit head bit meaning that its about twice/two and a half times as tall as a stealth suit (you can image a stealth suit standing on the hips of the ghostkeel). Also, there is a drone right next to it! And it appears to be about twice as tall as the drone on the stick (remember the drone is placed a bit lower), which makes it no where near as tall as a riptide, let alone a stormsurge. I'd reckon it is between half/two-thirds of the size of a riptide, but definitely taller than even a broadside.
krazynadechukr wrote: I think Ghosty is somewhere in between broadside/riptide & Stormy is bigger than Riptide...
If the Broadside is bigger than the Commander, I'd say that the Ghostkeel would be the size of a Broadside at maximum. We already know that the Stormsurge is significantly bigger than the Riptide.
TheNewBlood wrote: If the Broadside is bigger than the Commander, I'd say that the Ghostkeel would be the size of a Broadside at maximum. We already know that the Stormsurge is significantly bigger than the Riptide.
I'd say Ghostkeel should be around the size of the Hazard, so definitely bigger and wider than Broadside, since they're both XV9 series.
I'll say Ghostkeel is larger than a Broadside and likely by a comfortable margin. Based on the size of his thigh and the size of the Firewarriors in the foreground, I think that he's probably got some parts commonality with the Riptide, but is slightly smaller overall.
I think people are making a mistake using the first digit only as a mass qualifier. Since the last codex the Broadside has been based on a different chassis than the Crisis suit, meaning it is now an XV-80 series instead of an XV-8 series platform. Similarly the Ghostkeel is an XV-90 series, not an XV-9, so its probably not Hazard sized.
No, that's never how it has worked. The broadside (canonically) is a alteration on the XV8 series (the 8 is modified by another 8). If it was an XV80 is would be bigger than a riptide. The first number is a size designation. The second number is a modifier on that. Like how the XV25 and the XV15 both have the modifier "5" for stealth. Shadowsun's suit is in the 2 series (same size class as the stealth suit) but has a 2 for experimental. The hazard is on class up from the crisis/broadside so it is given the XV9 classification, and this new suit would also go in that class.
I thought you were speaking literally that its designation was 10 and not 104, my bad.
As far as how the numbers work, the Broadside has always been an evolution of the Crisis suit in the fluff. The only thing that messes this up is the Stormsurge by being a "12" as opposed to the Riptides' "10" despite being very similar.
Caederes wrote: I thought you were speaking literally that its designation was 10 and not 104, my bad.
As far as how the numbers work, the Broadside has always been an evolution of the Crisis suit in the fluff. The only thing that messes this up is the Stormsurge by being a "12" as opposed to the Riptides' "10" despite being very similar.
I'm pretty sure the Stormsurge is bigger than the Riptide so the '12' makes sense.
Although version 4 is supposed to be command and control model, while Riptides are issued to Shas'Vre bodyguards rather than commanders (commanders are too valuable to loose to a Nova reactor malfunctions)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ImAGeek wrote: I'm pretty sure the Stormsurge is bigger than the Riptide so the '12' makes sense.
Besides, there is no say weight class designation must come in a sequence - we have no XV3, 5, 6 and 7 series, jumping from XV2 to 4 and then straight to 8, so I haver no trouble with jumping over XV11 as well.
The hype is real. This is the showdown to see who gets my money. FW or GW. Will it be the Gargantuan Creature Weight of the Supremacy Armor or a tag team combo of the Stormsurge, Ghostkeel, and new kits that gets my money.
A multipart plastic boxed set that makes one KV128 Stormsurge Ballistic Suit. This walking vehicle stands as tall as a Riptide Battlesuit and is a magnificent centerpiece miniature for any Tau collection. The Stormsurge wields new weaponry, designed to destroy the Imperial Knights, super heavy vehicles and Titans along with huge missile pods, and large array of secondary weapons.
Listed at RRP £90.
In other news, Vanguard and Sternguard getting repacked (32mm bases?).
A multipart plastic boxed set that makes one KV128 Stormsurge Ballistic Suit. This walking vehicle stands as tall as a Riptide Battlesuit and is a magnificent centerpiece miniature for any Tau collection. The Stormsurge wields new weaponry, designed to destroy the Imperial Knights, super heavy vehicles and Titans along with huge missile pods, and large array of secondary weapons.
Listed at RRP £90.
So halfway between the price band of the two Knight kits. Interesting.
In other news, Vanguard and Sternguard getting repacked (32mm bases?).
PRAISE RAPTOR JESUS! I've held off on buying any more Vanguard/Sternguard for my Raptors because buying 32mm bases as well is irksome.
A multipart plastic boxed set that makes one KV128 Stormsurge Ballistic Suit. This walking vehicle stands as tall as a Riptide Battlesuit and is a magnificent centerpiece miniature for any Tau collection. The Stormsurge wields new weaponry, designed to destroy the Imperial Knights, super heavy vehicles and Titans along with huge missile pods, and large array of secondary weapons.
Nice!
BrookM wrote:Oh goody, as if the Tau had any trouble taking down Imperial Knights before.
Outside melta crisis and y'vahra, yeah, we had trouble. Broadsides were a better option, had they keep S10.
BrookM wrote: Oh goody, as if the Tau had any trouble taking down Imperial Knights before.
Actually, it's the one thing we did have trouble taking down. Tau are amazing against light-medium armour, but the only thing we really had that was good against heavy was DS meta-ciders.
Wishlisting here - but wouldn't it be great to see XV-88 railguns go back to s10 (or even 9) and the heavy railgun on the hammerhead become a sD sabot?
BrookM wrote: Oh goody, as if the Tau had any trouble taking down Imperial Knights before.
Actually, it's the one thing we did have trouble taking down. Tau are amazing against light-medium armour, but the only thing we really had that was good against heavy was DS meta-ciders.
EMPWarriors were good for taking down knights. At least until your opponents stay away from the fire warriors xD
And the Y'vahra is still experimental (rules) and everything is short-ranged.
Knights and any armour 13+ is tough for Tau.
Not that i really mind, they excel in firepower against about all other targets, so i hope the new big-boy will not be TOO good.
I personally am more interested in the Ghostkeel anyway.
I always prefer a flexible unit above a big and (point-wise) expensive one.
If Stealth teams also get improved (probably if you field Ghostkeel and 3 stealth teams), i will be a happy Tau player.
ORicK wrote: And the Y'vahra is still experimental (rules) and everything is short-ranged.
Knights and any armour 13+ is tough for Tau.
Not that i really mind, they excel in firepower against about all other targets, so i hope the new big-boy will not be TOO good.
I personally am more interested in the Ghostkeel anyway.
I always prefer a flexible unit above a big and (point-wise) expensive one.
If Stealth teams also get improved (probably if you field Ghostkeel and 3 stealth teams), i will be a happy Tau player.
What might be the benefit for a stealth-suit formation? Re-roll cover saves comes to mind as a pretty good rule they could gain, especially if the stealth suit retains its current rules.
Additionally, i'm wondering what the command benefits for the inevitable decurion formation will be. Free Markerlights every turn (like an old APOC formation used to do...) or possibly increased BS? Hard to tell. I'm pumped for this release! I dusted off my tau yesterday and won a local RTT with them.
I absolutely adore the fact that the "Destroyer Missile" is Strength 8.
Is this the first LoW choice that can contain more than one? I'm pretty sure it is. That's kinda cool.
I'm digging the statlines. It is making me sincerely question whether or not the Tau will still have the benefits to Pulse Weapons via Ethereals though.
Edit: and holy ferret-balls you can take three of them in a squad.
Edit: and it seems to go in the fortification slot, and interesting take on tau fortifications. I like it.
I thought that icon was the LOW fist.
Edit - also am I reading the stats correctly (blurry pic) - S6 T6 W8 Gargantuan creature, with a 3+ AS? Not insurmountable stats by any means but for the damage output this thing can manage, especially from turn 2 forward when it's locked in position, is amazing. Which big gun to go with? The pulse blastcannon that gets stronger but more focused at closer ranges, or the driver cannon that's S10 AP1 ordnance all day? i'm thinking S10.
I absolutely adore the fact that the "Destroyer Missile" is Strength 8.
Is this the first LoW choice that can contain more than one? I'm pretty sure it is. That's kinda cool.
I'm digging the statlines. It is making me sincerely question whether or not the Tau will still have the benefits to Pulse Weapons via Ethereals though.
That symbol is LOW? I thought it looked like fortification?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I notice that it can take a twinlinked airbursting frag projector. I think this is a hint that it's going non-special.
I absolutely adore the fact that the "Destroyer Missile" is Strength 8.
Is this the first LoW choice that can contain more than one? I'm pretty sure it is. That's kinda cool.
I'm digging the statlines. It is making me sincerely question whether or not the Tau will still have the benefits to Pulse Weapons via Ethereals though.
That symbol is LOW? I thought it looked like fortification?
Fortification is a bastion, LoW is a clenched fist with spikes. This was spiked fist.
I absolutely adore the fact that the "Destroyer Missile" is Strength 8.
Is this the first LoW choice that can contain more than one? I'm pretty sure it is. That's kinda cool.
I'm digging the statlines. It is making me sincerely question whether or not the Tau will still have the benefits to Pulse Weapons via Ethereals though.
That symbol is LOW? I thought it looked like fortification?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I notice that it can take a twinlinked airbursting frag projector. I think this is a hint that it's going non-special.
So, a stabilized KV128 for just under 400 Points will fire, PER TURN,
2 S10 AP1 Ordnance Large blasts
8D6 S5 AP5 shots
8 S5 AP5 shots that ignore cover/LOS Up to 4 S8 AP1 missiles
2 S4 AP5 Large Blasts that ignore cover, Twin Linked
Looks more like the LoW fist than the Fortification bastion.
Also, PDC all the way. The blastcannon looks meh... 30" max range with the 20"-30" band being a S9 AP5 Large Blast is underwhellming, even if it is 2 shots (2 Strength 10 AP 1 small blasts at 10"-20" is pretty scary, albiet short ranged).
Also lol at the 2 10" SD AP1 shots. WTF is it going to kill with that range.
EDIT: I wonder if each gun has to fire at the same target it fired at in the first volley? I'm guessing no.
Actually only 4 SMS shots. Unless it has been buffed for some reason, and the missiles are one shot (they are literally seekers w/o the marker ability).
I absolutely adore the fact that the "Destroyer Missile" is Strength 8.
Is this the first LoW choice that can contain more than one? I'm pretty sure it is. That's kinda cool.
I'm digging the statlines. It is making me sincerely question whether or not the Tau will still have the benefits to Pulse Weapons via Ethereals though.
That symbol is LOW? I thought it looked like fortification?
Fortification is a bastion, LoW is a clenched fist with spikes. This was spiked fist.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Actually only 4 SMS shots. Unless it has been buffed for some reason, and the missiles are one shot (they are literally seekers w/o the marker ability).
SMS is currently Heavy 4, so firing it twice would yield 8 SMS shots (I love doing this with a ripple-firing riptide).
Wait. So if this is being published in White Dwarf, wouldnt that be indicative that theTau are not getting a new codex, but rather new units via WD update, similar to the Tyranids some time back?
chaos0xomega wrote: Wait. So if this is being published in White Dwarf, wouldnt that be indicative that theTau are not getting a new codex, but rather new units via WD update, similar to the Tyranids some time back?
Not really - lately WD has been publishing the rules of all the new kits, then the codex comes out as the last week's release for that particular army. Space Marines most recently saw the rules for Assault Marines, and Devastator marines published when those kits came out ahead of the codex.
chaos0xomega wrote: Wait. So if this is being published in White Dwarf, wouldnt that be indicative that theTau are not getting a new codex, but rather new units via WD update, similar to the Tyranids some time back?
No, ALL new releases get their rules printed in White Dwarf.
That thing is going to wreck face against Knights (especially if take more than one and mix up the big guns). I'd say go back to the ol' FW bubble wrap and have a 'Tide or two for support and maybe some TL melta XV8s to DS in behind. Super excited for the rest of the dex now!
Nomeny wrote: Lack of jump capability is going to kill it, especially when it can be caught in close combat by a Assault Squads in a Skyhammer formation.
Somehow, I doubt that "lack of jump capability" is going to be its downfall.
We're talking about a squadronable Garguantuan Creature that is 360 points base with 11 Wounds.
It looks like it is T6 though. That is what would be its downfall.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
buddha wrote: Humm, firepower overwhelming. Only has a FNP beyond the 3+ it would seem a bit squishy to enemy fire, assault, and things like grav.
My first thought that with a 3+ save it will be a tasty target for kastealeans with phosphor.
Something else that is interesting is that I see no Drone options that are listed.
Nomeny wrote: Lack of jump capability is going to kill it, especially when it can be caught in close combat by a Assault Squads in a Skyhammer formation.
Somehow, I doubt that "lack of jump capability" is going to be its downfall.
We're talking about a squadronable Garguantuan Creature that is 360 points base with 11 Wounds. It looks like it is T6 though. That is what would be its downfall.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
buddha wrote: Humm, firepower overwhelming. Only has a FNP beyond the 3+ it would seem a bit squishy to enemy fire, assault, and things like grav.
My first thought that with a 3+ save it will be a tasty target for kastealeans with phosphor.
Something else that is interesting is that I see no Drone options that are listed.
It's very blurry, but I think that's 8 (or possibly 9) not 11.
I'm just glad we don't appear to be having another debacle like the Wraithknight. Gargantuan Creatures may suck, but at least this one is appropriately costed and can actually be killed by things other than Gravcent deathstars.
This is actually kind of encouraging that the new codex won't be massively overpowered. The only thing I'm a bit hesident on is that fact that you can take 3 of them.
The Wise Dane wrote:
I'm just glad that it has many W's but only a somewhat high save of 3+. No Invul., nu bs. Just wounds.
It might be that there is something we are not seeing just yet. Plus it can take Support Systems, meaning it can (likely) take a Shield Generator and other stuff.
Co'tor Shas wrote:
This is actually kind of encouraging that the new codex won't be massively overpowered. The only thing I'm a bit hesident on is that fact that you can take 3 of them.
Really? I like the fact that you can take 3 of them. It suggests that they want people to make squadrons of them--and it makes me think I might get Baneblade Squadrons in C: IG!
Actually not bad as far as power output goes. I think I like it. It can be killed if the enemy pushes hard against it, it's no T 8 ridiculousness. It can fire a lot but it looks like it's as good as two riptides if it moves and better if it doesn't move. 10" D weapon is actually ok, no powerhouse killing stuff from 48" away, but dangerous enough at close quarters. If a WK loses a charge roll against it then it could find itself in range of 4 str D shots. Not bad.
Overall I think they did a good job at this one. Except for the 1-3 squadron. That's just plain stupid.
I am a little MEH on it and will need to see it function on the table first. I see this as being a first turn dead point sink due to wraithknight spam. Wraith guard will wreck it pretty quick too once in range (turn two). Funny that currently the Riptide has a better save and an invulnerable save. Speculation on does everything fire twice if anchored or just the main gun?
Am I the only one that thinks this is somewhat lacklustre. I was hoping for something that could shoot down a Wraithknight with ease, this is pretty underwhelming in my opinion. Some S10 shooting fair enough but I thought it would at least be shooting 2 strength D shots per turn, at a better range than 10".
Its an artillery platform, not an anti-vehicle platform. If you expect it to go toe to toe with enemy superheavies, I suspect you will be disappointed (particularly since it has a Tyranid MC statline). If you expect it to lay down a wall of fire on enemy infantry and even some vehicles, you'll have a good time.
tetrisphreak wrote: Wishlisting here - but wouldn't it be great to see XV-88 railguns go back to s10 (or even 9) and the heavy railgun on the hammerhead become a sD sabot?
They've sold enough hammerheads and new broadsides. You're supposed to buy three of the new stormsurges now...in case the rules didn't somehow make that clear enough.
Edit: and holy ferret-balls you can take three of them in a squad.
Edit: and it seems to go in the fortification slot, and interesting take on tau fortifications. I like it.
I thought that icon was the LOW fist.
Edit - also am I reading the stats correctly (blurry pic) - S6 T6 W8 Gargantuan creature, with a 3+ AS? Not insurmountable stats by any means but for the damage output this thing can manage, especially from turn 2 forward when it's locked in position, is amazing. Which big gun to go with? The pulse blastcannon that gets stronger but more focused at closer ranges, or the driver cannon that's S10 AP1 ordnance all day? i'm thinking S10.
It's ap2 not 1which does matter against vehicles alot. I actually think I like the D weapon much more, remember this thing is a GMC so it runs 12" a phase, not that hard to get the D in range if you really need it offensively, but more importantly you generally need the D against things that are crashing into your lines as Tau, so the 10" range band around that things massive base is fine. Especially when you lock him down and have 4 sD shots.
All that said he is rather all the eggs in a basket at 360. with poor LD he can be shrieked down rather quickly, heck at only T6 he can be shot down with good old fashioned plasma. I'd say he is priced fairly and will either alpha them massively or get punked right off.
tetrisphreak wrote: Wishlisting here - but wouldn't it be great to see XV-88 railguns go back to s10 (or even 9) and the heavy railgun on the hammerhead become a sD sabot?
They've sold enough hammerheads and new broadsides. You're supposed to buy three of the new stormsurges now...in case the rules didn't somehow make that clear enough.
He isn't OP by any means. Aside from his main weapon and some one shot missiles all he adds to the party is S5. Honestly I'd rather have ethereal backed fire warriors and a riptide after contemplation. 360pts is alot when you consider his D weapon is 10" range with a BS of 3 and he doesn't jump.
Am I reading this correctly? You can take 3 in a unit, And if they deploy their stabilizers they can fire twice..? So.. 24D6 strength 5 ap 5 missiles per turn..? Oh god.. they will anihhilate every infantry unit on the battlefield.. xD
I'm seeing this as a hard counter to the Gladius/Lions Blade Strikeforce. Nice free transports you have there, it would be a shame if someone shot the $h*t out of them!
As a Tau player, I was hoping to see something other than "yet more gunline" options. I personally like bringing deepstriking and outflanking units. I am still hoping for a viable Kroot or Vespid counter assault option.
Merellin wrote: Am I reading this correctly? You can take 3 in a unit, And if they deploy their stabilizers they can fire twice..? So.. 24D6 strength 5 ap 5 missiles per turn..? Oh god.. they will anihhilate every infantry unit on the battlefield.. xD
To bad most people only use minimum infantry.
I would be hard pressed to find an opponent even fielding the 360 points of infantry to even out this guys cost, let alone a squadron of them.
Well, I was thinking in Apocalypse, Where people bring their entire collections "I see your unit of 200 Orks and fire my 24D6 missiles at it!" Muahaha =D
I dont realy use lords of war outside apocalypse..
Merellin wrote: Am I reading this correctly? You can take 3 in a unit, And if they deploy their stabilizers they can fire twice..? So.. 24D6 strength 5 ap 5 missiles per turn..? Oh god.. they will anihhilate every infantry unit on the battlefield.. xD
To bad most people only use minimum infantry.
I would be hard pressed to find an opponent even fielding the 360 points of infantry to even out this guys cost, let alone a squadron of them.
1. Add Early Warning Override.
2. Wait for Grav-Cent-Pods/Skyhammer
3. Profit?
Merellin wrote: Am I reading this correctly? You can take 3 in a unit, And if they deploy their stabilizers they can fire twice..? So.. 24D6 strength 5 ap 5 missiles per turn..? Oh god.. they will anihhilate every infantry unit on the battlefield.. xD
Not just that--if you deploy their Stabilizers, and you (currently) have an Ethereal performing Convocation of the Elements' bonus Pulse shot, the Pulse Blastcannon will be doling out 6 shots at up to 15" range.
With those 6 shots being Strength D at a range of up to 10".
Or you can have 2 S10 AP2 Ordnance 1, Large Blast shots at up to 36" range if you take a Pulse Driver instead of the Pulse Blastcannon.
As of this point, I fully expect the Ethereal's "bonus Pulse shot" to be altered to read just Carbines and Rifles.
Assuming EWO still exists you mean... Besides, he is STILL only bs 3. 4d6 s5 missiles that are non TL will get you an average of 14 shots for 7 hits. Since when are 7 s5 hits great? Even against ork boys thats only around 4-5 wounded before cover saves, against marines you will kill a pair or cause a single glance to a rhino.
I like him but he is by no means broken, he will actually be incredibly difficult to use IMO.
Merellin wrote: Am I reading this correctly? You can take 3 in a unit, And if they deploy their stabilizers they can fire twice..? So.. 24D6 strength 5 ap 5 missiles per turn..? Oh god.. they will anihhilate every infantry unit on the battlefield.. xD
Not just that--if you deploy their Stabilizers, and you (currently) have an Ethereal performing Convocation of the Elements' bonus Pulse shot, the Pulse Blastcannon will be doling out 6 shots at up to 15" range.
With those 6 shots being Strength D at a range of up to 10".
Or you can have 2 S10 AP2 Ordnance 1, Large Blast shots at up to 36" range if you take a Pulse Driver instead of the Pulse Blastcannon.
As of this point, I fully expect the Ethereal's "bonus Pulse shot" to be altered to read just Carbines and Rifles.
375 points after the upgrade plus an ethereal for 2 s10 pie plates is not very good mate.
Red Corsair wrote: Assuming EWO still exists you mean... Besides, he is STILL only bs 3. 4d6 s5 missiles that are non TL will get you an average of 14 shots for 7 hits. Since when are 7 s5 hits great? Even against ork boys thats only around 4-5 wounded before cover saves, against marines you will kill a pair or cause a single glance to a rhino.
I like him but he is by no means broken, he will actually be incredibly difficult to use IMO.
Markerlights will still buff his BS; I highly doubt GW will remove the BS buff option for markerlights.
Well, it's GCLoW, which means in FLG tournaments, you won't be able to take more than one. I doubt that they'll adjust the rules to allow taking of a squad of 3. After all, this isn't IoM
Those seem like pretty reasonable rules, and a decent cost at 360.
I'm excited primarily for the model at this point, as I don't play Tau. Maybe this codex will change my mind, and I'll start a Tau army But either way, I am definitely buying one. If I can finish up my table, I'll even start him right away... but I have one of those LE Centurions, a tac squad, drop pod, LR Redeemer, and a couple of other things on the go that I had wanted to wrap up
Nomeny wrote: Lack of jump capability is going to kill it, especially when it can be caught in close combat by a Assault Squads in a Skyhammer formation.
Somehow, I doubt that "lack of jump capability" is going to be its downfall.
We're talking about a squadronable Garguantuan Creature that is 360 points base with 11 Wounds.
It looks like it is T6 though. That is what would be its downfall.
And the 3+ save. Even with FNP, that puts its survivability versus sustained fire at about the same as some ho hum Nid monstrous creatures.
Speaking of money, I see Faeit say GBP90 for the price. I guess that will be around USD$148, CAD$179 (some number about between the prices of Knight Warden and Knight Errant) and in Australia... $80,000.
So, a stabilized KV128 for just under 400 Points will fire, PER TURN,
2 S10 AP1 Ordnance Large blasts
8D6 S5 AP5 shots
8 S5 AP5 shots that ignore cover/LOS Up to 4 S8 AP1 missiles
2 S4 AP5 Large Blasts that ignore cover, Twin Linked
did i miss anything???
The big gun you're upgrading to is S10 AP2, not 1, Ordnance large blast.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ughh.. BS3 again. Somehow a veteran of at least a decade of warfare armed with a very advanced suit of armor with high tech targeting systems specifically designed for long range shooting has the same marksmanship as a typical guardsman with one or two battles under his belt aiming with an iron sight. At least FW is getting that right with BS4 on their suit. And, yes, I know you can buff that with markerlights but that is a stupid mechanic to force onto the fluff.
maceria wrote: Ha! I hear you. A bottle of Lagavulin and a keyboard binge and I could hash a pretty solid rules draft. The hard part is play testing and refinement, which GW seems to notice is hard as well.
I approve your choice of Scotch. Just finished a bottle of Laphroaig a couple of weeks ago.
So, a stabilized KV128 for just under 400 Points will fire, PER TURN,
2 S10 AP1 Ordnance Large blasts
8D6 S5 AP5 shots
8 S5 AP5 shots that ignore cover/LOS Up to 4 S8 AP1 missiles
2 S4 AP5 Large Blasts that ignore cover, Twin Linked
did i miss anything???
The big gun you're upgrading to is S10 AP2, not 1, Ordnance large blast.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ughh.. BS3 again. Somehow a veteran of at least a decade of warfare armed with a very advanced suit of armor with high tech targeting systems specifically designed for long range shooting has the same marksmanship as a typical guardsman with one or two battles under his belt aiming with an iron sight. At least FW is getting that right with BS4 on their suit. And, yes, I know you can buff that with markerlights but that is a stupid mechanic to force onto the fluff.
My lore-friendly explanation for the Tau having poor BS is because of their slow reflexes. Being only Initiative 2, and without the thousands of years of experience of the Necrons, they have trouble leading targets and reacting quickly. Their dexterity probably isn't great either, considering they only have three fingers on each hand.
Besides, do you really want a model with this much firepower and the ability to shoot twice having good native accuracy? I don't think so.
So, a stabilized KV128 for just under 400 Points will fire, PER TURN,
2 S10 AP1 Ordnance Large blasts
8D6 S5 AP5 shots
8 S5 AP5 shots that ignore cover/LOS Up to 4 S8 AP1 missiles
2 S4 AP5 Large Blasts that ignore cover, Twin Linked
did i miss anything???
The big gun you're upgrading to is S10 AP2, not 1, Ordnance large blast.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ughh.. BS3 again. Somehow a veteran of at least a decade of warfare armed with a very advanced suit of armor with high tech targeting systems specifically designed for long range shooting has the same marksmanship as a typical guardsman with one or two battles under his belt aiming with an iron sight. At least FW is getting that right with BS4 on their suit. And, yes, I know you can buff that with markerlights but that is a stupid mechanic to force onto the fluff.
Maybe we will see the return of the targeting array support system???
Orrus wrote: Anyone else concerned by the 3+ armour save?
If this only has a 3+ why would a broadside or a riptide have anything better?
GW apparently had a flash of brilliance and decided that having a Gargantuan Creature with a 2+ save would be too unbalanced and ridiculous considering how durable GCs are already.
At first, this Stormsurge guy looked pretty bleak for me. Effectively a FW gunline and a Medusa combined into a Tyranid-ish Gargauntan Creature. Then, I realized that it can take a shield generator for a 4+ invulnerable, and I began to actually like it .
.
Otherwise, GW should really clear up the thing with GCs firing two-or-maybe-more weapons. Also, no multi-tracker and blacksun filter yet again . Did the Tau forget how to make these things or what?
Mr Morden wrote: God Help us if the Riptide is also a Garg Creature as well :(
I don't think so. My hunch is that this will be the Tau's GC Lord of War, and the Riptide will either stay an MC or (hopefully) be turned into a walker.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AtoMaki wrote: At first, this Stormsurge guy looked pretty bleak for me. Effectively a FW gunline and a Medusa combined into a Tyranid-ish Gargauntan Creature. Then, I realized that it can take a shield generator for a 4+ invulnerable, and I began to actually like it .
.
Otherwise, GW should really clear up the thing with GCs firing two-or-maybe-more weapons. Also, no multi-tracker and blacksun filter yet again . Did the Tau forget how to make these things or what?
Maybe now they have to buy them like every other army!
Mr Morden wrote: God Help us if the Riptide is also a Garg Creature as well :(
I don't think so. My hunch is that this will be the Tau's GC Lord of War, and the Riptide will either stay an MC or (hopefully) be turned into a walker.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AtoMaki wrote: At first, this Stormsurge guy looked pretty bleak for me. Effectively a FW gunline and a Medusa combined into a Tyranid-ish Gargauntan Creature. Then, I realized that it can take a shield generator for a 4+ invulnerable, and I began to actually like it .
.
Otherwise, GW should really clear up the thing with GCs firing two-or-maybe-more weapons. Also, no multi-tracker and blacksun filter yet again . Did the Tau forget how to make these things or what?
Maybe now they have to buy them like every other army!
They do buy them, they're included in the cost of the suits/unit.
My lore-friendly explanation for the Tau having poor BS is because of their slow reflexes. Being only Initiative 2, and without the thousands of years of experience of the Necrons, they have trouble leading targets and reacting quickly. Their dexterity probably isn't great either, considering they only have three fingers on each hand.
Besides, do you really want a model with this much firepower and the ability to shoot twice having good native accuracy? I don't think so.
That's nice that you've made up fanfic to fill in gaping holes but I don't agree. In any case, their tech and AI can easily compensate. Being a great videogame players doesn't make you the best MMA fighters so the two are not 100% comparable. There are plenty of great folks who couldn't last 5 seconds in dodge ball but that can pull off ridiculous twitch combos and shots virtually. Initiative in game is a marker for physical dexterity, not shooting. As for the last part, yes, I'd be fine with that much firepower and the ability to shoot twice IF IT WERE COSTED APPROPRIATELY. That is the point in having a points cost for every unit after all. I mean... it's not like we're playing Age of Sigmar 40,000... yet.
Meh. Why GW loves to give us S5 in spades. This thing was conceived to kill Knights. It doesn't kill them.
The blacksun/multitracker thing is very easy to explain (for GW models): all they need is to improve the selection of battlesuits in the wargear descriptions. There aren't Blacksun Filters and Multi-trackers in the wargear dots for Crisis, Broadsides, etc - they're hard-wired and the Armour section of Tau wargear explains all battlesuits have them. GW just need to insert Ghostkeel and Stormsurge to that list.
My lore-friendly explanation for the Tau having poor BS is because of their slow reflexes. Being only Initiative 2, and without the thousands of years of experience of the Necrons, they have trouble leading targets and reacting quickly. Their dexterity probably isn't great either, considering they only have three fingers on each hand.
Besides, do you really want a model with this much firepower and the ability to shoot twice having good native accuracy? I don't think so.
That's nice that you've made up fanfic to fill in gaping holes but I don't agree. In any case, their tech and AI can easily compensate. Being a great videogame players doesn't make you the best MMA fighters so the two are not 100% comparable. There are plenty of great folks who couldn't last 5 seconds in dodge ball but that can pull off ridiculous twitch combos and shots virtually. Initiative in game is a marker for physical dexterity, not shooting. As for the last part, yes, I'd be fine with that much firepower and the ability to shoot twice IF IT WERE COSTED APPROPRIATELY. That is the point in having a points cost for every unit after all. I mean... it's not like we're playing Age of Sigmar 40,000... yet.
By that same argument you would think that Baneblades, some of the most advanced tanks the imperium has with advanced systems and mechanicus yadda yadda that those would be BS4 too. Nope, BS 3 just like every other Guard vehicle. Unless you buy the extra upgrade on Shadowsword for targeters at the expense of your sponson weapons. Oh yea, Guard don't get markerlights either! They only get the occasional psyker support if they're lucky...sometimes not so lucky...
Mr Morden wrote: God Help us if the Riptide is also a Garg Creature as well :(
I don't think so. My hunch is that this will be the Tau's GC Lord of War, and the Riptide will either stay an MC or (hopefully) be turned into a walker.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AtoMaki wrote: At first, this Stormsurge guy looked pretty bleak for me. Effectively a FW gunline and a Medusa combined into a Tyranid-ish Gargauntan Creature. Then, I realized that it can take a shield generator for a 4+ invulnerable, and I began to actually like it .
.
Otherwise, GW should really clear up the thing with GCs firing two-or-maybe-more weapons. Also, no multi-tracker and blacksun filter yet again . Did the Tau forget how to make these things or what?
Maybe now they have to buy them like every other army!
They do buy them, they're included in the cost of the suits/unit.
That's true, and the Battlesuit entries will not put those individual upgrades under Wargear but rather it's in the armory under the entry of <Insert suit name here>...however notice that the Wargear entry does not say "KV128 Stormsurge Ballistic Suit" like the current Tau suit entries do.
My lore-friendly explanation for the Tau having poor BS is because of their slow reflexes. Being only Initiative 2, and without the thousands of years of experience of the Necrons, they have trouble leading targets and reacting quickly. Their dexterity probably isn't great either, considering they only have three fingers on each hand.
Besides, do you really want a model with this much firepower and the ability to shoot twice having good native accuracy? I don't think so.
That's nice that you've made up fanfic to fill in gaping holes but I don't agree. In any case, their tech and AI can easily compensate. Being a great videogame players doesn't make you the best MMA fighters so the two are not 100% comparable. There are plenty of great folks who couldn't last 5 seconds in dodge ball but that can pull off ridiculous twitch combos and shots virtually. Initiative in game is a marker for physical dexterity, not shooting. As for the last part, yes, I'd be fine with that much firepower and the ability to shoot twice IF IT WERE COSTED APPROPRIATELY. That is the point in having a points cost for every unit after all. I mean... it's not like we're playing Age of Sigmar 40,000... yet.
To my knowledge, there hasn't been an official explanation for the Tau's mediocre BS other than "because GW says so", so you're free to disagree with me. You do make a good point about their AI and technology theoretically being able to compensate.
I think that the Stormsurge is appropriately costed. It's on the level of the Imperial Knight, but not as ridiculous as the Wraithknight. It has to give up a full turn of shooting in order to fire twice, which if feel is a balanced risk/reward tactic. It also only has a 3+ save and T6, so most weapons will actually hurt it, unlike the Wraithknight.
crazyK wrote: As a Tau player, I was hoping to see something other than "yet more gunline" options. I personally like bringing deepstriking and outflanking units. I am still hoping for a viable Kroot or Vespid counter assault option.
Honestly, this seems like a really good not-gunline option to me.
GC with 8 Wounds means that even with a lower toughness and 3+, it's still pretty solid and walking forward and eating damage. Move 12" per turn, fire everything, enemy has to deal with it (hopefully before it gets in range for that 10" Strength D gun) while the rest of your gunline just shoots from behind it. Kind of what the Wraithknight was supposed to be before it went full OP.
AtoMaki wrote: At first, this Stormsurge guy looked pretty bleak for me. Effectively a FW gunline and a Medusa combined into a Tyranid-ish Gargauntan Creature. Then, I realized that it can take a shield generator for a 4+ invulnerable, and I began to actually like it .
.
Otherwise, GW should really clear up the thing with GCs firing two-or-maybe-more weapons. Also, no multi-tracker and blacksun filter yet again . Did the Tau forget how to make these things or what?
The rules specifically state that GC's can fire -all- their weapons, no additional wargear is required.
AtoMaki wrote: At first, this Stormsurge guy looked pretty bleak for me. Effectively a FW gunline and a Medusa combined into a Tyranid-ish Gargauntan Creature. Then, I realized that it can take a shield generator for a 4+ invulnerable, and I began to actually like it .
.
Otherwise, GW should really clear up the thing with GCs firing two-or-maybe-more weapons. Also, no multi-tracker and blacksun filter yet again . Did the Tau forget how to make these things or what?
The rules specifically state that GC's can fire -all- their weapons, no additional wargear is required.
AtoMaki wrote: At first, this Stormsurge guy looked pretty bleak for me. Effectively a FW gunline and a Medusa combined into a Tyranid-ish Gargauntan Creature. Then, I realized that it can take a shield generator for a 4+ invulnerable, and I began to actually like it .
.
Otherwise, GW should really clear up the thing with GCs firing two-or-maybe-more weapons. Also, no multi-tracker and blacksun filter yet again . Did the Tau forget how to make these things or what?
The rules specifically state that GC's can fire -all- their weapons, no additional wargear is required.
The rules only state that they can fire each of the two weapons they are normally allowed to fire at different targets. There isn't a single 'all' in the whole description of the Shooting rules.
AtoMaki wrote: At first, this Stormsurge guy looked pretty bleak for me. Effectively a FW gunline and a Medusa combined into a Tyranid-ish Gargauntan Creature. Then, I realized that it can take a shield generator for a 4+ invulnerable, and I began to actually like it .
.
Otherwise, GW should really clear up the thing with GCs firing two-or-maybe-more weapons. Also, no multi-tracker and blacksun filter yet again . Did the Tau forget how to make these things or what?
The rules specifically state that GC's can fire -all- their weapons, no additional wargear is required.
The rules only state that they can fire each of the two weapons they are normally allowed to fire at different targets. There isn't a single 'all' in the whole description of the Shooting rules.
It doesn't give any numbers - the rules say they can fire each of their weapons, at different targets if they desire. If they have two weapons, they can fire each of them. If they have 247 million, they can fire each of them.
AtoMaki wrote: At first, this Stormsurge guy looked pretty bleak for me. Effectively a FW gunline and a Medusa combined into a Tyranid-ish Gargauntan Creature. Then, I realized that it can take a shield generator for a 4+ invulnerable, and I began to actually like it .
.
Otherwise, GW should really clear up the thing with GCs firing two-or-maybe-more weapons. Also, no multi-tracker and blacksun filter yet again . Did the Tau forget how to make these things or what?
The rules specifically state that GC's can fire -all- their weapons, no additional wargear is required.
The rules only state that they can fire each of the two weapons they are normally allowed to fire at different targets. There isn't a single 'all' in the whole description of the Shooting rules.
It doesn't give any numbers - the rules say they can fire each of their weapons, at different targets if they desire. If they have two weapons, they can fire each of them. If they have 247 million, they can fire each of them.
I don't understand the confusion.
Gargantuan Creatures follow the Monstrous Creatures' rules for Shooting. The MC Shooting rules specifically state that they can fire only 2 weapons.
My lore-friendly explanation for the Tau having poor BS is because of their slow reflexes. Being only Initiative 2, and without the thousands of years of experience of the Necrons, they have trouble leading targets and reacting quickly. Their dexterity probably isn't great either, considering they only have three fingers on each hand.
Besides, do you really want a model with this much firepower and the ability to shoot twice having good native accuracy? I don't think so.
That's nice that you've made up fanfic to fill in gaping holes but I don't agree. In any case, their tech and AI can easily compensate. Being a great videogame players doesn't make you the best MMA fighters so the two are not 100% comparable. There are plenty of great folks who couldn't last 5 seconds in dodge ball but that can pull off ridiculous twitch combos and shots virtually. Initiative in game is a marker for physical dexterity, not shooting. As for the last part, yes, I'd be fine with that much firepower and the ability to shoot twice IF IT WERE COSTED APPROPRIATELY. That is the point in having a points cost for every unit after all. I mean... it's not like we're playing Age of Sigmar 40,000... yet.
By that same argument you would think that Baneblades, some of the most advanced tanks the imperium has with advanced systems and mechanicus yadda yadda that those would be BS4 too. Nope, BS 3 just like every other Guard vehicle. Unless you buy the extra upgrade on Shadowsword for targeters at the expense of your sponson weapons. Oh yea, Guard don't get markerlights either! They only get the occasional psyker support if they're lucky...sometimes not so lucky...
Baneblades aren't a good comparison but Knights are and iirc bs4. In any case, I'd be fine with tau suits having an upgrade that cost them a slot like you're suggesting with baneblades because that is what they used to have. Sadly, upgrades don't give GW money and charging for new models that have the markerlight rules do so that won out. Just don't kid yourself that it has something to do with fluff or balance though. It was a business decision.
Talys wrote: Well, it's GCLoW, which means in FLG tournaments, you won't be able to take more than one. I doubt that they'll adjust the rules to allow taking of a squad of 3. After all, this isn't IoM
Adjust what rules? The rules say it's a squad of 1-3. The only reason you couldn't take more than one is if points didn't allow it or if the local tournament house rules it out.
And if they house rule it out then I would expect this same tournament to prevent multiple wraithknights and IK armies from showing up.
To my knowledge, there hasn't been an official explanation for the Tau's mediocre BS other than "because GW says so", so you're free to disagree with me. You do make a good point about their AI and technology theoretically being able to compensate.
I think that the Stormsurge is appropriately costed. It's on the level of the Imperial Knight, but not as ridiculous as the Wraithknight. It has to give up a full turn of shooting in order to fire twice, which if feel is a balanced risk/reward tactic. It also only has a 3+ save and T6, so most weapons will actually hurt it, unlike the Wraithknight.
Actually I believe there was. Source was either the Firewarrior novel, first Codex, or the fire warrior game (maybe a chapter approved article way back then). The issue of poor BS related to their vision and a difficulty with depth perception. Even then we were all of the idea that technology should be able to compensate for that. Maybe they don't understand that They have an issue with depth perception and think the fix for poor BS is a metric crap ton of S5 shots. Spray and pray ballistic skill
I agree with the poster that stated they like the model but won't preorder. I too will wait to see the full codex before any purchases.
Talys wrote: Speaking of money, I see Faeit say GBP90 for the price. I guess that will be around USD$148, CAD$179 (some number about between the prices of Knight Warden and Knight Errant) and in Australia... $80,000.
Stormsurge is $123 on ebay (preorders) by some guy....
I know it's a blurry image, but to me it looks like the Cluster Rockets might actually be Str 5 AP 3. The Pulse Blastcannon 20-30" range looks like it's Str 9 AP 3 (AP 5 wouldn't make sense to me) and that 3 looks an awful lot like the AP on the rocket profile.
AtoMaki wrote: At first, this Stormsurge guy looked pretty bleak for me. Effectively a FW gunline and a Medusa combined into a Tyranid-ish Gargauntan Creature. Then, I realized that it can take a shield generator for a 4+ invulnerable, and I began to actually like it .
.
Otherwise, GW should really clear up the thing with GCs firing two-or-maybe-more weapons. Also, no multi-tracker and blacksun filter yet again . Did the Tau forget how to make these things or what?
The rules specifically state that GC's can fire -all- their weapons, no additional wargear is required.
The rules only state that they can fire each of the two weapons they are normally allowed to fire at different targets. There isn't a single 'all' in the whole description of the Shooting rules.
It doesn't give any numbers - the rules say they can fire each of their weapons, at different targets if they desire. If they have two weapons, they can fire each of them. If they have 247 million, they can fire each of them.
I don't understand the confusion.
Gargantuan Creatures follow the Monstrous Creatures' rules for Shooting. The MC Shooting rules specifically state that they can fire only 2 weapons.
And then it states it may fire EACH of its weapons. Which modifies the base rule in the MC and removes the limit.
To my knowledge, there hasn't been an official explanation for the Tau's mediocre BS other than "because GW says so", so you're free to disagree with me. You do make a good point about their AI and technology theoretically being able to compensate.
I think that the Stormsurge is appropriately costed. It's on the level of the Imperial Knight, but not as ridiculous as the Wraithknight. It has to give up a full turn of shooting in order to fire twice, which if feel is a balanced risk/reward tactic. It also only has a 3+ save and T6, so most weapons will actually hurt it, unlike the Wraithknight.
Actually I believe there was. Source was either the Firewarrior novel, first Codex, or the fire warrior game (maybe a chapter approved article way back then). The issue of poor BS related to their vision and a difficulty with depth perception. Even then we were all of the idea that technology should be able to compensate for that. Maybe they don't understand that They have an issue with depth perception and think the fix for poor BS is a metric crap ton of S5 shots. Spray and pray ballistic skill
I agree with the poster that stated they like the model but won't preorder. I too will wait to see the full codex before any purchases.
I believe it was the Xenology book and the Imperial Anatomist was surmising that they had poor depth perception. In any case, that's hardly a reason to keep them at BS3 until they miraculously jump to BS5 for commanders. I'm not saying grunts like FW or pathfinders should be BS4 or have the option for it but rather the grizzled veterans with very advanced tech that 100% make up the suits.
Wow, I'm very impressed by this as it shows GW is working hard on making the game a lot more fun for everyone, and this is a good example of horizontal power growth.
The Stormsurge looks reasonably powerful, but it's not exactly more powerful than what we already have. So while I might get one eventually, because I'm not the biggest fan of the model,I'm happy I still have the option of fielding other things like the Riptide without actually making my list worse for it. Basically for those who like it, they get something cool, and for those of us who don't we get an option, but aren't forced into taking it if we want to be competitive.
Basic guardsman with bs 3 is at the same capabilities as a modern day special forces soldier. Your platoon based grunts aren't nobodies with only a couple fights under their belts, they are normally the top 10% of a whole planets military who then spend time being indoctrinated and honed into an even better soldier enroute.
Conscripts and cultists are the half trained chattel you are looking for. The universe is full of bigger harassed, doesn't mean that guardsmen aren't capable fighters.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: Basic guardsman with bs 3 is at the same capabilities as a modern day special forces soldier. Your platoon based grunts aren't nobodies with only a couple fights under their belts, they are normally the top 10% of a whole planets military who then spend time being indoctrinated and honed into an even better soldier enroute.
Conscripts and cultists are the half trained chattel you are looking for. The universe is full of bigger harassed, doesn't mean that guardsmen aren't capable fighters.
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I wouldn't say modern day special forces. Modern day forces however I would agree on.
Edit: OTOH, tau are trained literally from birth, sleep far less than humans (which adds up over time), have some damn amazing technology, and to gain a regular suit it means a minimum of four years on the line and passing a trial by fire. The people who are piolting these are going to be Shas'vre at least (so minimum 12 years and 3 TBF), if not Shas'el (16 years and 4 TBF).
To my knowledge, there hasn't been an official explanation for the Tau's mediocre BS other than "because GW says so", so you're free to disagree with me. You do make a good point about their AI and technology theoretically being able to compensate.
I think that the Stormsurge is appropriately costed. It's on the level of the Imperial Knight, but not as ridiculous as the Wraithknight. It has to give up a full turn of shooting in order to fire twice, which if feel is a balanced risk/reward tactic. It also only has a 3+ save and T6, so most weapons will actually hurt it, unlike the Wraithknight.
Actually I believe there was. Source was either the Firewarrior novel, first Codex, or the fire warrior game (maybe a chapter approved article way back then). The issue of poor BS related to their vision and a difficulty with depth perception. Even then we were all of the idea that technology should be able to compensate for that. Maybe they don't understand that They have an issue with depth perception and think the fix for poor BS is a metric crap ton of S5 shots. Spray and pray ballistic skill
I agree with the poster that stated they like the model but won't preorder. I too will wait to see the full codex before any purchases.
If it's good enough for the fungus it's good enough for da fish
Which really, means that Shas'la should be BS3 and anyone higher ranked BS4. At the very least by the time you're a riptide pilot you'd think you'd qualify as a veteran.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: Basic guardsman with bs 3 is at the same capabilities as a modern day special forces soldier. Your platoon based grunts aren't nobodies with only a couple fights under their belts, they are normally the top 10% of a whole planets military who then spend time being indoctrinated and honed into an even better soldier enroute.
Conscripts and cultists are the half trained chattel you are looking for. The universe is full of bigger harassed, doesn't mean that guardsmen aren't capable fighters.
\
I wouldn't say modern day special forces. Modern day forces however I would agree on.
Edit: OTOH, tau are trained literally from birth, sleep far less than humans (which adds up over time), have some damn amazing technology, and to gain a regular suit it means a minimum of four years on the line and passing a trial by fire. The people who are piolting these are going to be Shas'vre at least (so minimum 12 years and 3 TBF), if not Shas'el (16 years and 4 TBF).
Are conscripts BS2? Here's where a d6 based game fails in nuancing relative levels of skill and/or experience.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: Basic guardsman with bs 3 is at the same capabilities as a modern day special forces soldier. Your platoon based grunts aren't nobodies with only a couple fights under their belts, they are normally the top 10% of a whole planets military who then spend time being indoctrinated and honed into an even better soldier enroute.
Conscripts and cultists are the half trained chattel you are looking for. The universe is full of bigger harassed, doesn't mean that guardsmen aren't capable fighters.
This view on guardsmen is really annoying, and also fundamentally impossible due to the numbers of guardsmen we know to exist in Universe (Billions).
Nearly all special forces on this planet are actually special, they have attributes that make them capable of becoming special forces. Not all people have this (many many many don't), especially their ability to make quick and correct decisions in literally life and death situations.
It is so impossible to make whole armies of these sort of recruits it is laughable. You can't just conscript and train these soldiers up and then throw them into the meat grinder with ridiculously poor planning and with a piecemeal attitude. The equivalent humans of modern day special forces in 40k timeline are storm troopers (marines don't count for obvious 'they aint human' reasons).
If you want to say that guardsmen are elite, as in inline with modern day marines etc, then fine, whatever, that is still debatable due to numbers they can provide, but they are NOT special forces.
Some people try to talk guardsmen up in this game so much to compensate for the injustice (to them) that marines (in game ones) are better that they convince themselves they are these gods of war. They are not, they are grubs, and not worth a lot either.
The stormsurge is not OP by a stretch. He can be killed quite easily in the current landscape of enemies actually. He brings buckets of s5 ap5, some seeker missiles and a s10 blast. Hes basically a riptide, some burst suits and a skyray rolled into one convenient target lol.
Yeah, Guardsmen are the equivalent of your average modern day soldier... from a country like North Korea or China or India. They're trained, but not as well trained as they could be, and a lot of the doctrine and tactics they are taught is based on out of date and inefficient concepts of warfare.
In any case, Im looking forward to a unit of 3x stormsurges. They should, theoretically, wipe the board of anything that could be described as average infantry or light vehicle.
Red Corsair wrote: The stormsurge is not OP by a stretch. He can be killed quite easily in the current landscape of enemies actually. He brings buckets of s5 ap5, some seeker missiles and a s10 blast. Hes basically a riptide, some burst suits and a skyray rolled into one convenient target lol.
I always thought a skyray was 2 markerlights that happens to also have just enough seeker missiles to justify it's cost.
Seeker missiles aren't the reason to bring the ray man.
Merellin wrote: Am I reading this correctly? You can take 3 in a unit, And if they deploy their stabilizers they can fire twice..? So.. 24D6 strength 5 ap 5 missiles per turn..? Oh god.. they will anihhilate every infantry unit on the battlefield.. xD
Not just that--if you deploy their Stabilizers, and you (currently) have an Ethereal performing Convocation of the Elements' bonus Pulse shot, the Pulse Blastcannon will be doling out 6 shots at up to 15" range.
With those 6 shots being Strength D at a range of up to 10".
Or you can have 2 S10 AP2 Ordnance 1, Large Blast shots at up to 36" range if you take a Pulse Driver instead of the Pulse Blastcannon.
As of this point, I fully expect the Ethereal's "bonus Pulse shot" to be altered to read just Carbines and Rifles.
This all assuming that the ethereal stay the same. We cannot view this in the context of the current codex, but the next. FYI with storm of fire, you have to be within half range, so 5 inch range to rapid fire it twice.
Red Corsair wrote: The stormsurge is not OP by a stretch. He can be killed quite easily in the current landscape of enemies actually. He brings buckets of s5 ap5, some seeker missiles and a s10 blast. Hes basically a riptide, some burst suits and a skyray rolled into one convenient target lol.
I always thought a skyray was 2 markerlights that happens to also have just enough seeker missiles to justify it's cost.
Seeker missiles aren't the reason to bring the ray man.
Your alone on that one mate. Skyrays are actually awesome and dumping those seeker missiles really has an impact on any game I have seen them in.
Merellin wrote: Am I reading this correctly? You can take 3 in a unit, And if they deploy their stabilizers they can fire twice..? So.. 24D6 strength 5 ap 5 missiles per turn..? Oh god.. they will anihhilate every infantry unit on the battlefield.. xD
Not just that--if you deploy their Stabilizers, and you (currently) have an Ethereal performing Convocation of the Elements' bonus Pulse shot, the Pulse Blastcannon will be doling out 6 shots at up to 15" range.
With those 6 shots being Strength D at a range of up to 10".
Or you can have 2 S10 AP2 Ordnance 1, Large Blast shots at up to 36" range if you take a Pulse Driver instead of the Pulse Blastcannon.
As of this point, I fully expect the Ethereal's "bonus Pulse shot" to be altered to read just Carbines and Rifles.
This all assuming that the ethereal stay the same. We cannot view this in the context of the current codex, but the next. FYI with storm of fire, you have to be within half range, so 5 inch range to rapid fire it twice.
Storm of Fire is "half range".
The Pulse Blast Cannon is up to a 30 inch range. It just has varying bands of effectiveness based upon the range it is at, not ranges you pick/choose to use.
Red Corsair wrote: The stormsurge is not OP by a stretch. He can be killed quite easily in the current landscape of enemies actually. He brings buckets of s5 ap5, some seeker missiles and a s10 blast. Hes basically a riptide, some burst suits and a skyray rolled into one convenient target lol.
I always thought a skyray was 2 markerlights that happens to also have just enough seeker missiles to justify it's cost.
Seeker missiles aren't the reason to bring the ray man.
I did a bunch of math and comparison on the Skyray, and it turns out the base chassis of it is simply under costed when you subtract the seeker missiles.
Edited the image to show the suit silhouette better
Based on the closer one's pose maybe this can serve as evidence that the crisis suits in the backdrop of the WD scans are actually an updated version of the older kit (like the Assault Marines kit a while back) and not the Farsight Codex conversions mentioned earlier
Red Corsair wrote: The stormsurge is not OP by a stretch. He can be killed quite easily in the current landscape of enemies actually. He brings buckets of s5 ap5, some seeker missiles and a s10 blast. Hes basically a riptide, some burst suits and a skyray rolled into one convenient target lol.
I always thought a skyray was 2 markerlights that happens to also have just enough seeker missiles to justify it's cost.
Seeker missiles aren't the reason to bring the ray man.
I did a bunch of math and comparison on the Skyray, and it turns out the base chassis of it is simply under costed when you subtract the seeker missiles.
It should be obvious from a glance IMO. 3 skyrays are 345pts and will hit with 4 marker lights meaning they can all dump 18 missiles hitting it on 2's and wounding it on 2's from 72" away. Skyrays are the most overlooked underrated unit in the tau book IMO. They also can take SMS for free. I can't wait to see what insane bonus they will get for taking a squad of 3 once the new book hits as well.
Red Corsair wrote: The stormsurge is not OP by a stretch. He can be killed quite easily in the current landscape of enemies actually. He brings buckets of s5 ap5, some seeker missiles and a s10 blast. Hes basically a riptide, some burst suits and a skyray rolled into one convenient target lol.
I always thought a skyray was 2 markerlights that happens to also have just enough seeker missiles to justify it's cost.
Seeker missiles aren't the reason to bring the ray man.
Your alone on that one mate. Skyrays are actually awesome and dumping those seeker missiles really has an impact on any game I have seen them in.
Sure, but broadsides, pirhana,hammerheads and flyers can pack them, and once you look at forgeworld options, it becomes clear that there are other sources of missiles that may or not be more efficient. The deciding factor in bringing a skyray shouldn't be the presence of missiles as you can get those elsewhere, but instead the factor that makes you choose to take one should be that it's got markerlights, as that is what makes it stand out from other markerlight platforms.
AtoMaki wrote: At first, this Stormsurge guy looked pretty bleak for me. Effectively a FW gunline and a Medusa combined into a Tyranid-ish Gargauntan Creature. Then, I realized that it can take a shield generator for a 4+ invulnerable, and I began to actually like it .
.
Otherwise, GW should really clear up the thing with GCs firing two-or-maybe-more weapons. Also, no multi-tracker and blacksun filter yet again . Did the Tau forget how to make these things or what?
Ok, it has GCUSR, so why would it need multi-tracker? Also, lets be honest, what army uses blind?
Red Corsair wrote: The stormsurge is not OP by a stretch. He can be killed quite easily in the current landscape of enemies actually. He brings buckets of s5 ap5, some seeker missiles and a s10 blast. Hes basically a riptide, some burst suits and a skyray rolled into one convenient target lol.
I always thought a skyray was 2 markerlights that happens to also have just enough seeker missiles to justify it's cost.
Seeker missiles aren't the reason to bring the ray man.
Your alone on that one mate. Skyrays are actually awesome and dumping those seeker missiles really has an impact on any game I have seen them in.
Sure, but broadsides, pirhana,hammerheads and flyers can pack them, and once you look at forgeworld options, it becomes clear that there are other sources of missiles that may or not be more efficient. The deciding factor in bringing a skyray shouldn't be the presence of missiles as you can get those elsewhere, but instead the factor that makes you choose to take one should be that it's got markerlights, as that is what makes it stand out from other markerlight platforms.
There is no other place you will find 2 BS4 networked marker lights, SMS, velocity tracker stock and 6 fething seeker missiles on an AV13 platform for cheaper then 115. I am shocked I am even having this discussion in a Tau thread.
Right now we have one unit to compare it to for citidel garg's, and that's the Wraith Knight.
The Wraith Knight can do just about everything as it gun-kata's across the board.
This... sure I can take 3 of them, but it doesn't do much for it's points. Sure it has a nice gun, but it's missile systems are... well.. underwhelming (yay, a brand new st 8 missile, hooray. Yay, lots of st 5 shots, no one saw that gak coming).
So for about the cost of three of these things, you can get a Tau'Nar, which has better weapons, has proper artillery, is more durable, has a long range D gun, and actually can take a D hit without real risk of dying.
Red Corsair wrote: The stormsurge is not OP by a stretch. He can be killed quite easily in the current landscape of enemies actually. He brings buckets of s5 ap5, some seeker missiles and a s10 blast. Hes basically a riptide, some burst suits and a skyray rolled into one convenient target lol.
I always thought a skyray was 2 markerlights that happens to also have just enough seeker missiles to justify it's cost.
Seeker missiles aren't the reason to bring the ray man.
Your alone on that one mate. Skyrays are actually awesome and dumping those seeker missiles really has an impact on any game I have seen them in.
Sure, but broadsides, pirhana,hammerheads and flyers can pack them, and once you look at forgeworld options, it becomes clear that there are other sources of missiles that may or not be more efficient. The deciding factor in bringing a skyray shouldn't be the presence of missiles as you can get those elsewhere, but instead the factor that makes you choose to take one should be that it's got markerlights, as that is what makes it stand out from other markerlight platforms.
Yes, other things can take Seeker Missiles, but Missiles have to be fired at the same target that the model shoots at, which makes it awkward. Additionally, the point cost of the Skyray is super cheaper compared to other options as it's slightly more expensive than a Piranha when you subtract the six missiles it has and to quote myself here:
4.) If you do the math out on it, and pretend it's just a base tank without the Seekers or Markerlights (which we can calculate as two Pathfinders since they're the cheapest other sources) you find out the base of it, with the two drones or whatever other secondary weapon you choose, is a total of 45 points. Even if we don't subtract the Markerlights it's only 67 points after you take into account the standard Seeker Missile cost.
I mean wouldn't you take a Devilfish that came with two beefed up Pathfinders, Skyfire, more armour, and BS for a total of 67 points, at the cost of not being able to transport anything but those two Pathfinders that could shoot from inside of it?
Merellin wrote: Am I reading this correctly? You can take 3 in a unit, And if they deploy their stabilizers they can fire twice..? So.. 24D6 strength 5 ap 5 missiles per turn..? Oh god.. they will anihhilate every infantry unit on the battlefield.. xD
Not just that--if you deploy their Stabilizers, and you (currently) have an Ethereal performing Convocation of the Elements' bonus Pulse shot, the Pulse Blastcannon will be doling out 6 shots at up to 15" range.
With those 6 shots being Strength D at a range of up to 10".
Or you can have 2 S10 AP2 Ordnance 1, Large Blast shots at up to 36" range if you take a Pulse Driver instead of the Pulse Blastcannon.
As of this point, I fully expect the Ethereal's "bonus Pulse shot" to be altered to read just Carbines and Rifles.
This all assuming that the ethereal stay the same. We cannot view this in the context of the current codex, but the next. FYI with storm of fire, you have to be within half range, so 5 inch range to rapid fire it twice.
Storm of Fire is "half range".
The Pulse Blast Cannon is up to a 30 inch range. It just has varying bands of effectiveness based upon the range it is at, not ranges you pick/choose to use.
Kanluwen wrote:
Storm of Fire is "half range".
The Pulse Blast Cannon is up to a 30 inch range. It just has varying bands of effectiveness based upon the range it is at, not ranges you pick/choose to use.
That is an interesting rules interaction.
Honestly, it's just nice to see the Conversion Beamer rules make an appearance in more places. We had the Eradication Ray for Cult Mechanicus and the Eradication Beamer for Skitarii recently, and now we get this--which is great!
Right now we have one unit to compare it to for citidel garg's, and that's the Wraith Knight.
The Wraith Knight can do just about everything as it gun-kata's across the board.
This... sure I can take 3 of them, but it doesn't do much for it's points. Sure it has a nice gun, but it's missile systems are... well.. underwhelming (yay, a brand new st 8 missile, hooray. Yay, lots of st 5 shots, no one saw that gak coming).
So for about the cost of three of these things, you can get a Tau'Nar, which has better weapons, has proper artillery, is more durable, has a long range D gun, and actually can take a D hit without real risk of dying.
Maybe it will grow on me, but not today.
I completely agree - in a 1vs1 Fight a Wraithknight will win every time - this thing is branded as being Tau's answer to Gargantuan Creatures, Super Heavy's and Fortifications. It does none of this well. I would rather have less missiles but have D weapon shooting with a range of at Least 48". Yes you can take 3 but why would you want too, I'm disappointed with this ruleset.
Talys wrote: Well, it's GCLoW, which means in FLG tournaments, you won't be able to take more than one. I doubt that they'll adjust the rules to allow taking of a squad of 3. After all, this isn't IoM
Adjust what rules? The rules say it's a squad of 1-3. The only reason you couldn't take more than one is if points didn't allow it or if the local tournament house rules it out.
And if they house rule it out then I would expect this same tournament to prevent multiple wraithknights and IK armies from showing up.
I'm talking about ITC rules, which state 0-1 Super Heavy / Gargantuan Creature Lord of War per army EXCEPT Imperial Knights (my IoM crack notwithstanding, because you couldn't field the faction otherwise). You can't take 2 WK in ITC tournament rules, and I suspect you wont be able to take 2 stormsurge.
While ITC rules are certainly anything but universal, and not really applicable outside of north America, they're popular enough to be of consideration when army building, especially in the USA and Canada, if you enjoy participating in tournaments.
Talys wrote: Speaking of money, I see Faeit say GBP90 for the price. I guess that will be around USD$148, CAD$179 (some number about between the prices of Knight Warden and Knight Errant) and in Australia... $80,000.
Stormsurge is $123 on ebay (preorders) by some guy....
Yeah, sounds right. You should be able to get better than that discounted.
Darksphere/FLG type discounting should land it around $112.
Right now we have one unit to compare it to for citidel garg's, and that's the Wraith Knight.
The Wraith Knight can do just about everything as it gun-kata's across the board.
This... sure I can take 3 of them, but it doesn't do much for it's points. Sure it has a nice gun, but it's missile systems are... well.. underwhelming (yay, a brand new st 8 missile, hooray. Yay, lots of st 5 shots, no one saw that gak coming).
So for about the cost of three of these things, you can get a Tau'Nar, which has better weapons, has proper artillery, is more durable, has a long range D gun, and actually can take a D hit without real risk of dying.
Maybe it will grow on me, but not today.
I completely agree - in a 1vs1 Fight a Wraithknight will win every time - this thing is branded as being Tau's answer to Gargantuan Creatures, Super Heavy's and Fortifications. It does none of this well. I would rather have less missiles but have D weapon shooting with a range of at Least 48". Yes you can take 3 but why would you want too, I'm disappointed with this ruleset.
Are we seriously comparing one of the most blatantly overpowered and undercosted units in the game to the Stormsurge? No unit comes off well from that comparison. In an ideal world, the Wraithknight would be significantly more expensive than the Stormsurge; of course it's going to be better.
The Wraithknight is a very versatile unit, while the Stormsurge is purely focused on shooting. Naturally, the Wraithknight will be better at CC, but the Stormsurge puts otu significantly more firepower at range, especially when it shoots twice. For it's price it has very balanced rules.
Talys wrote: I'm talking about ITC rules, which state 0-1 Super Heavy / Gargantuan Creature Lord of War per army EXCEPT Imperial Knights (my IoM crack notwithstanding, because you couldn't field the faction otherwise). You can't take 2 WK in ITC tournament rules, and I suspect you wont be able to take 2 stormsurge.
While ITC rules are certainly anything but universal, and not really applicable outside of north America, they're popular enough to be of consideration when army building, especially in the USA and Canada, if you enjoy participating in tournaments.
0-1 LoW entry or 0-1 LoW model? Because if it's the former, taking more than 1 SS is completely ok
I find it really bizarre that something which looks like a long range D weapon sniper rifle is actually a shotgun. In otherwords its packing about the same firepower as a single wraithguard.
All the rest of the shooting is done better, for cheaper, by riptides, broadsides and crisis teams. Tau did not need more missile and pieplate spam.
Really don't get why the lore for this suit massively hypes about this thing being meant to take on enemy super heavies when it just doesn't remotely have the weaponry appropriate to do that. Its weaponry is more appropriate to a horde killer.
Basically I expected something more akin to a shadowsword but no crazy large blast ignores cover. Maybe a small blast d weapon, but long range being the absolute given. I do not want to waddle my shotgun wielding battlesuit with no close combat weapons or arms towards enemy units with no jump pack to get away...
I think it is going to need some protection from drones and shields but it is likely to get this from the support systems, so don't rule it out just yet. It could be the best bullet magnet in the game.
I am a little disappointed it didn't get a long range D shot but the description and everything has it as a defence platform basically anti infantry not anti GMC or titan so given that I shouldn't be surprised it got D at 10".
It covers a lot of what other units cover and brings (very) little but more shots to the table. But with the stabilizers it does bring a lot more shots and a very long reaching strength 10 large blast.
I like it but only because it really looks pretty bad ass.
Talys wrote: I'm talking about ITC rules, which state 0-1 Super Heavy / Gargantuan Creature Lord of War per army EXCEPT Imperial Knights (my IoM crack notwithstanding, because you couldn't field the faction otherwise). You can't take 2 WK in ITC tournament rules, and I suspect you wont be able to take 2 stormsurge.
While ITC rules are certainly anything but universal, and not really applicable outside of north America, they're popular enough to be of consideration when army building, especially in the USA and Canada, if you enjoy participating in tournaments.
0-1 LoW entry or 0-1 LoW model? Because if it's the former, taking more than 1 SS is completely ok
At the moment, it's one model, but there are no squads of Lords of War, currently. It's also moot, at this very moment, because you couldn't take the StormSurge anyhow, as ITC specifically lists the LoW's you can take (eg Orca and Tigershark for Tau). Obviously, they'll add Stormsurge; the question is, will they allow a higher number of them as a part of the squad, in the same way that there is a specific exception for Imperial Knights (you can have 1 detachment with any number of IK's that the detachment allows).
Keep in mind, you're only allowed 1 Wraithknight, which effectively nerfed 7e WK vs 6e WK if you could have used more than 1.
In addition, if allowed, taking 3 StormSurge might lose you the game if the other player doesn't take a SH/GCLoW, per ITC rules, because if one player has a GCLoW and the other doesn't, you get a bonus maelstrom point for every 3 wounds that you deal. And those StormSurges look to be pretty easy to wound.
ceorron wrote: I think it is going to need some protection from drones and shields but it is likely to get this from the support systems, so don't rule it out just yet. It could be the best bullet magnet in the game.
I am a little disappointed it didn't get a long range D shot but the description and everything has it as a defence platform basically anti infantry not anti GMC or titan so given that I shouldn't be surprised it got D at 10".
It covers a lot of what other units cover and brings (very) little but more shots to the table. But with the stabilizers it does bring a lot more shots and a very long reaching strength 10 large blast.
I like it but only because it really looks pretty bad ass.
There will be another (anti-knight/long range) version no doubt. Wait for it. You know GW.
You can give a Stormsurge a 4+ invulnerable save for 25 points, making it almost as survivable against D guns and Grav guns as a Tau'nar. How anyone thinks this thing is bad is beyond me. It's a Gargantuan/Super Heavy that isn't over-powered but actually merely good for its points cost. It doesn't compare well to a Wraithknight, but what in the game actually does outside of maybe the Tau'nar?
For the guy that said his local ETC group thinks it's useless, my counter-argument is Reecius said it is solid, increasing to vicious when firing twice....hah!
Caederes wrote: You can give a Stormsurge a 4+ invulnerable save for 25 points. How anyone thinks this thing is bad is beyond me. It's a Gargantuan/Super Heavy that isn't over-powered but actually merely good for its points cost. It doesn't compare well to a Wraithknight, but what in the game actually does outside of maybe the Tau'nar?
For the guy that said his local ETC group thinks it's useless, my counter-argument is Reecius said it is solid, increasing to vicious when firing twice....hah!
Are you guessing that or did you actually see the new codex item list? I suspect it's the former and you're only using half of the available info. The shield generator for something the size of a riptide (which is what the description says) doesn't give a flat 4+ but rather a 5+. The forgeworld gargantuan one gives you a variable one depending on what damage is incoming. GW can always up and change stuff with a new codex but nothing points to a flat out 4+ for the stormsurge so far.
At least nobody will ever accuse me of playing ![[Disk]](/dakkaforum/templates/default/images/icon_disk.gif){kind=icon}
