SeanDrake wrote: FW not allowed to do another 30k boxset as they kept embarrassing the main studio. Calth outsold the AoS starter at launch by a huge amount and to a lesser extent the 40k starter for which sales tanked for 3minths after launch.
Then they did it again with Prospero which crushed the main studios sales figures even comparing 12 months of AoS sales against 1 month of Prospero made grim reading.
So the chances of seeing a 3rd set that would beat up the Primas and steal there lunch money is slim.
I was about to say I don't believe this, no successful company could possibly be this stupid, but then I remembered this is GW we're talking about and it's almost certainly true.
Except FW didn't make the plastic boxsets, at least one of those boxes (I think Prospero) had the rules written by James Hewitt, who at the time was part of GW's main rules team, nothing to do with the FW team.
And of course Prospero outsold any other box set available at the time, it had Custodes and Sisters of Silence in for the first time ever.
Peregrine, the only set that doesnt have another resin or plastic equivalent is the Heavy Flamer, which sorta does out of Sternguard and Blood Angel tactical kits. The heavy bolter and missile launcher are in plastic, and most people starting a heresy army are probably picking up at least 2 boxes of calth or prospero. Which will give you a min heavy weapon squad with a spare.
Half the heavy weapons are for the old heavy weapons squads they make, and have whatever-pattern equivalents. I looked.
The shotgun and graviton gun special weapons dont, but if you really want those you can use the scout shotguns and do some knife work, or, the Deathwatch Shotguns. Thr grav gun Gw makes which looks better, since the grav isnt used in heresy otherwise.
The Cataphractii and Tartaros weapons are for the resin kits, which im sure will get the axe soon as well.
It sucks that MK2 is going, but, it has the same general aesthetic as 3.
Bolters make sense to get the axe as well, since, you know, the plastic come with bolters.
This is all fat they are trimming, which is good stuff to get rid of when they have to make room anyways.
Crazyterran wrote: Thr grav gun Gw makes which looks better, since the grav isnt used in heresy otherwise.
Err, slight problem there chief - those guns are in the Heresy era as well, they have different rules. There are no GW/FW alternatives to the FW Grav Gun.
Crazyterran wrote: Peregrine, the only set that doesnt have another resin or plastic equivalent is the Heavy Flamer, which sorta does out of Sternguard and Blood Angel tactical kits.
But which ones have a plastic 30k equivalent? I get that you can buy some 40k devastator squads for lascannons and maybe convert them to work, but then you're throwing away money on a bunch of marine bodies that you can't use in 30k.
(And no, the other 30k pattern weapons aren't compatible. If you want, say, a FW MkIV heavy support squad, a kit that is still on sale, you need the shoulder-mounted heavy weapons that are going OOP. The hip-fired ones that aren't going OOP won't work with that kit.)
Id like to think any idiot who is doing the basic research and has been in the GW hobby long enough to even know of both Forge World and Horus Heresy knows that you can simply get the plastic version for less then the price of a resin five man squad and a pair of hip fired weapon kits, but I suppose one or two people might have issues.
I think you are just trying to find an issue that doesnt really exist.
Crazyterran wrote: Id like to think any idiot who is doing the basic research and has been in the GW hobby long enough to even know of both Forge World and Horus Heresy knows that you can simply get the plastic version for less then the price of a resin five man squad and a pair of hip fired weapon kits, but I suppose one or two people might have issues.
Except you can't get the plastic version because there isn't a plastic version in the 30k-era armor patterns, a detail many 30k players care very strongly about. Just look at the various threads about proposals to ban 40k-era marine models from 30k games. And regardless of your opinions of the merits of the kit, FW is still going to be selling a heavy weapon squad kit that no longer has its required finishing components available to buy. FW might as well include a note with each kit saying "lol, good luck finding a decent recaster to finish your stuff".
Not really just the FW price bubble bursting £44 for a full squad of conversion parts on top of the actual squad cost was/is insane when yo might need 3 sets.
Whatever your opinion on recasts the fact is the same parts are about £12-15 From China with a comparable quality and time to deliver in some cases.
I know it's futile but if FW prices were not in some cases insane then they might actually sell some of these slow moving kits. But hey I guess selling 1 or 2 items for a 300%+ margin makes the fell better than selling dozens for slightly less margin.
...the plastic Mk3 and Mk4 marines, with the hipfire options from Forge World. Its how im doing my MK4 devastators.
Its absolutely sloppy that they arent discontinuing the other heavy weapon teams, but they are getting rid of the resin cataphractii options without getting rid of those models as well, so im sure we will see it in the next week or so.
SeanDrake wrote: Whatever your opinion on recasts the fact is the same parts are about £12-15 From China with a comparable quality and time to deliver in some cases.
Or they're $0 if you steal them off the shelf at your local store. I'm not really sure why you're comparing illegal recasts of stolen IP to legitimate items from the original manufacturer and thinking that it means something.
changemod wrote: Jeeze that’s a slaughter. I always kinda preferred mark 2 to 3 in artwork and was heavily surprised when a third heresy boardgame never materialised with that or mark 5 last year.
FW not allowed to do another 30k boxset as they kept embarrassing the main studio. Calth outsold the AoS starter at launch by a huge amount and to a lesser extent the 40k starter for which sales tanked for 3minths after launch. Then they did it again with Prospero which crushed the main studios sales figures even comparing 12 months of AoS sales against 1 month of Prospero made grim reading.
What a freaking shock that a box containing 30 Tactical Marines, 5 Terminators, a Dreadnought, and two generic HQ choices valued at $325 for $150 was a hotseller. What a freaking shock as well that a box containing 30 Tacticals, 5 Terminators, 5 Sisters of Silence, 5 Custodes, and 2 Legion specific heroes(both of whom are only available in that set still) valued at $310 for $150 was a hotseller as well. That $310 isn't including the Legion specific heroes as well, since they're not available elsewhere and would likely be $30 each rather than $25.
I mean, what exactly do you think you're proving? That 40k's more popular than AoS? That discount boxes sell better than non-discount boxes?
SeanDrake wrote: Whatever your opinion on recasts the fact is the same parts are about £12-15 From China with a comparable quality and time to deliver in some cases.
Or they're $0 if you steal them off the shelf at your local store. I'm not really sure why you're comparing illegal recasts of stolen IP to legitimate items from the original manufacturer and thinking that it means something.
The point is that the recasters can offer the same service, and still make a profit, at a much lower cost. FW has development costs to shoulder as well, but they still probably make a huge profit margin on each kit over their production and development costs.
They probably need to rethink their pricing for such kits to have a lower margin, but a higher volume of kits sold. That would make the recasters less appealing to people if the official models are not too much more expensive.
SeanDrake wrote: Whatever your opinion on recasts the fact is the same parts are about £12-15 From China with a comparable quality and time to deliver in some cases.
Or they're $0 if you steal them off the shelf at your local store. I'm not really sure why you're comparing illegal recasts of stolen IP to legitimate items from the original manufacturer and thinking that it means something.
The point is that the recasters can offer the same service, and still make a profit, at a much lower cost. FW has development costs to shoulder as well, but they still probably make a huge profit margin on each kit over their production and development costs.
They probably need to rethink their pricing for such kits to have a lower margin, but a higher volume of kits sold. That would make the recasters less appealing to people if the official models are not too much more expensive.
Awful argument. The costs FW incurs are not remotely the same as what recasters incur. They can afford to be massively cheap, because they put in none of the work to make the product.
SeanDrake wrote: Whatever your opinion on recasts the fact is the same parts are about £12-15 From China with a comparable quality and time to deliver in some cases.
Or they're $0 if you steal them off the shelf at your local store. I'm not really sure why you're comparing illegal recasts of stolen IP to legitimate items from the original manufacturer and thinking that it means something.
The point is that the recasters can offer the same service, and still make a profit, at a much lower cost. FW has development costs to shoulder as well, but they still probably make a huge profit margin on each kit over their production and development costs.
They probably need to rethink their pricing for such kits to have a lower margin, but a higher volume of kits sold. That would make the recasters less appealing to people if the official models are not too much more expensive.
Awful argument. The costs FW incurs are not remotely the same as what recasters incur. They can afford to be massively cheap, because they put in none of the work to make the product.
Awful argument, if the costs FW incurs equals an additional £30 a kit in this case then they need to stop paying there designers £30000+ a year. Yes FW designed and sculpted them but these are salaried staff not artisans handcrafting each kit individually, I understand to an extent on the character figs and tanks that prices reflect most customers only wanting 1 of an item but on stuff intended for volume sales then prices need to be a little more realistic. I figure even without China that sales of these items probably sucked and I can think of a few other things likely to disappear in the near future.
My point as was skilfully missed by some people is there was no reason other than greed for these kits to be as exspensive as they were they are an item designed to be sold in volume but then priced at literally near to there weight in gold.
Added to this legal or not we got to see new GW react to competition and it was pretty much as expected if our margins cannot be similar to Prada or Rolex we are not interested. They would rather sell a handful of kits at triple figure margins then sell thousands at lower margin even at a loss of profits if it encourages the mind set that they are a luxury brand.
It's fascinating that you seem to have this great insiders knowledge of their costs, labour, taxes and utilities to have such an explicit knowledge of their costs and pricing strategy. Please enlighten us to all this detail.
Peregrine wrote: And regardless of your opinions of the merits of the kit, FW is still going to be selling a heavy weapon squad kit that no longer has its required finishing components available to buy.
Check this page again in a week.
This is all moot anyway. As soon as 40k Guilliman discovers that the Cockatrice Maledictum enables time travel, 30k is gonna go full Primaris.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: It's fascinating that you seem to have this great insiders knowledge of their costs, labour, taxes and utilities to have such an explicit knowledge of their costs and pricing strategy. Please enlighten us to all this detail.
well labour is easy they have a full website of the salaries they pay, there costs for materials are again relatively easy to extrapolate a number of other manufacturers have spoken about mold and resin costs, but we cannot take into account any advantages of bulk discounts or of in house production but since these would increase profits that’s less of an issue. The taxes and utilities are cost of business and should not effect an individual product of a company GW’s greatly.
Pricincing strategy is easy and comes to “as much as possible”, I had an interview a number of years ago in which I got to speak to senior people from the business side of the company and was advised at the time that in the stores the lowest margin item they carried was 85% but with most items being much higher and often in treble digits. As an aside I believe the item in question was the paint, they did tell me one of the highest margins were the tools.
Ill be honest. I buy Primarchs, characters, rule books, transfer sheets, and sometimes legion specific units from forgeworld. All of my infantry are Calth and Prospero plastics from Gw.
Every upgraded shoulder pad, torso, helmet and any heavy/special weapons and bigger tanks I buy from a select few recasters. These parts are all immaculate in quality. So FW cleaning out these items really dosent bother me too much. The upgrade kits and weapons were way to expensive to justify purchasing from them. I support FW and GW through the majority of my purchases, I dont feel bad about buying from recasters to pimp my legion out.
As my gaming group tend to play really big games of HH, I have 30,000 points of Salamanders, consisting of almost 500 Power Armored Infantry, so you can imagine how much money that would be if I purchased every single shoulder pad from FW.
I feel as if FW just kinda gave up over the whole recaster thing. If they made more incentive to buy from them, say offer a discount as well as free shipping with orders over a certain value. Just my thoughts.
Fun fact: the e-mail update refers to MkIV dreadnoughts and arms being for the chop, but they haven't been marked as such. So panic buy grab those for future projects now if you want them.
BaronIveagh wrote: Personally, I don't buy that it's the root cause, or DKOK would have been the first to go.
To be fair, we've lost the grenadier kit with nothing more than vague promises that someday it might return. Is FW being honest, or have they just decided to let the recasters have DKoK and never bother fixing the molds once they wear out?
Man, Elysian lost their whole line and nary a peep beyond "bummer" Non-essential HH products go and people act like HH is dead.
I honestly don't get why they had doubles in the first place, all these super special kits must not have sold that well.
To be fair, we've lost the grenadier kit with nothing more than vague promises that someday it might return. Is FW being honest, or have they just decided to let the recasters have DKoK and never bother fixing the molds once they wear out?
No idea, I do know however that recasters are doing a brisk business in them, with many offering the whole line rather than a handful of selections like HH or Elysians. In all honesty I suspect that FW is getting ready to make a major shift in it's business model.
zedmeister wrote: Fun fact: the e-mail update refers to MkIV dreadnoughts and arms being for the chop, but they haven't been marked as such. So panic buy grab those for future projects now if you want them.
they did tell me one of the highest margins were the tools.
Referring to items to aid assembly of models, or the customers?
Cheeky. Though, considering he had an interview with "senior people" he could have spoken to Merrit who meant it literally
lol nope sure they were referring to the actual tools, I met Merrit he seemed pleasant enough and of the people I met was the only one who asked If I played there games and discussed them before I got to the studios. He looked pretty harrased but it was in the middle of the CH debacle so that was understandable.
The interview was with the heads of Sales and marketing plus HR and I could not tell you there names if my life depended on it. They were never derogatory of there customers but they did consider them mostly as wallets with legs and no self control, but that is more or less the same of anyone from Sales or Marketing in any large retailer.
My main impression was how unorganized the company seemed to be compared to previous employers despite having a massive lead up time on releases. I also got the impression that they were not hiring for aptitude long before Kirbys famous statement, we were talking and the forth coming release of Dawn of War 2 was mentioned and I asked what tie in promotions/advertisements or products they had planned and they just looked at me blankly.
So, any bets of when the Necron Unit will go on sale with rules? It appears to be done already, so I can't imagine it will be too long. I don't really know how long it takes once they show it off.
SeanDrake wrote: Whatever your opinion on recasts the fact is the same parts are about £12-15 From China with a comparable quality and time to deliver in some cases.
Or they're $0 if you steal them off the shelf at your local store. I'm not really sure why you're comparing illegal recasts of stolen IP to legitimate items from the original manufacturer and thinking that it means something.
The point is that the recasters can offer the same service, and still make a profit, at a much lower cost. FW has development costs to shoulder as well, but they still probably make a huge profit margin on each kit over their production and development costs.
They probably need to rethink their pricing for such kits to have a lower margin, but a higher volume of kits sold. That would make the recasters less appealing to people if the official models are not too much more expensive.
Awful argument. The costs FW incurs are not remotely the same as what recasters incur. They can afford to be massively cheap, because they put in none of the work to make the product.
That does not at all justify the costs. Recasters prove that FW can sell them for far less if they want to but they clearly don't because greed.
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Inquisitor Gideon wrote: It's fascinating that you seem to have this great insiders knowledge of their costs, labour, taxes and utilities to have such an explicit knowledge of their costs and pricing strategy. Please enlighten us to all this detail.
If recasters can do it then why can't FW? Are you telling me that Recasters have access to some technology that FW doesnt and that gives them the ability to produce these models at a much lower price?
Doesn't matter. It's Forgeworld's product to sell how they wish. We could argue back and forth about Chinese v UK labour costs, workplace costs, cheap toxic resin costs, etc. But, at the end of the day, Forgeworld has put a product to market that they have priced at a certain level, as is their right, and immoral counterfeiters are piggy backing off of it and unscrupulous buyers are happy to take advantage of.
zedmeister wrote: Doesn't matter. It's Forgeworld's product to sell how they wish. We could argue back and forth about Chinese v UK labour costs, workplace costs, cheap toxic resin costs, etc. But, at the end of the day, Forgeworld has put a product to market that they have priced at a certain level, as is their right, and immoral counterfeiters are piggy backing off of it and unscrupulous buyers are happy to take advantage of.
Uhhh I think you missed the point. The point is that FW has no one but themselves to blame for people buying from recasters. No one is saying they are not within their rights to charge whatever they want, but they shouldnt be surprised if they are losing business. If they werent so greedy they wouldnt have this issue to begin with. Or at the very least the issue would not be anywhere near as prevalent. If it's their right to charge absurd prices then it's my right to buy from recasters.
Honestly though to call people unscrupulous because they want to buy the product for a reasonable price is kind of ignorant and close-minded. You are essentially telling people who want to get into 40k/30k but cant because they simply dont have the money to invest in it, amoral when in reality it's GW that created this issue to begin with. GW has NO ONE but themselves to blame for recasters. If you are going to charge some ludicrous prices for these models you better expect for people to buy from recasters. Especially when you look at how absurd the prices are in certain countries. look at Australia and New Zealand ffs. A box of FIVE Immortals costs 64$ in New Zealand. In the UK it costs 20 BP, which is about 39 New Zealand Dollars. That's about a 60% increase in cost.... for some reason. That is a straight up insult and GW has only themselves to blame for people wanting a cheaper alternative. But yes it's the customers who are unscrupulous here, right?
I would also add that recasters can help the hobby. For instance someone might invest into the hobby if they can get some products much cheaper. Even if they buy a SINGLE model from GW, that's one more model that GW sells that they might otherwise not sell if the person cant justify the financial investment to simply get into warhammer. Also someone who buys a model from a recaster probably would not have bought the model from GW/FW to begin with since they obviously can't justify the cost.
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Kharne the Befriender wrote: Is there a normal amount of time Forgeworld waits after previewing something to releasing it? Trying to guage how long im waiting for the necron thing
Don't know. I would really like to know when the new Necron construct is coming out as well. The best thing shown at warhamemr fest by far for me . Still wish we get some named characters from Forge World as well like Xun'Bakyr - a badass female necron character that has never gotten a model.
But yes it's the customers who are unscrupulous here, right?
Um, yes.. that's how morality and the law work when someone knowingly and voluntarily seeks out counterfeit luxury goods. And I say that as a relentless critic of GW's pricing. Last I checked, no Western nation guarantees free or even affordable access to every unnecessary want their citizens desire. Gw is free to charge whatever they want and customers are free to ignore them if what they're asking is unreasonable. Do I personally care if others buy recasts? No, not at all, in large part because I agree that GWFW prices are ridiculous...but call a spade a spade and don't pretend that they're not breaking the law nor that they're occupying some imaginary Robin Hoodesque morale high ground either.
But yes it's the customers who are unscrupulous here, right?
Um, yes.. that's how morality and the law work when someone knowingly and voluntarily seeks out counterfeit luxury goods. And I say that as a relentless critic of GW's pricing. Last I checked, no Western nation guarantees free or even affordable access to every want their citizens desire. Gw is free to charge whatever they want and customers are free to ignore them if what they're asking is unreasonable. Do I personally care if others but recasts? No, not at all in large part because I agree that GWs prices are ridiculous...but call a spade a spade and don't pretend that they're not breaking the law not that they're occupying some imaginary Robin Hoodesque morale high ground either.
Ummm no, that's now how morality works. Just because you are legally within your rights does not mean you are morally in the right to purposely charge 60% more to another country for no reason. Is there a 60% import tax that I am unaware of?
You didnt actually read anything I said did you? I literally said "Gw is within their rights to charge however much they want". No one is arguing against that. But that doesnt mean they themselves are not to blame for them losing business to recasters. That also does not mean that GW charging 60% more for living in another country is morally acceptable. legally sure, but morally? Hell no.
I also find it hard to believe that you are a 'relentlessness critic' of GW prices if you are trying to justify this. it's kind of laughable honestly. By your logic, literally anything that is legal is morally acceptable. That seems to be the arbitrary line that you created to determine what is morally acceptable and what is not.
And no, no one said recasters arent breaking the law. If you are literally just trying to argue a technicality here in regards to what's legal then you are right, what they are doing is illegal. No one is arguing that. I am arguing that GW has only themselves to blame for it, that it can actually help the hobby and that GW does things that are just as bad albeit legal.
Kharne the Befriender wrote: Is there a normal amount of time Forgeworld waits after previewing something to releasing it? Trying to guage how long im waiting for the necron thing
Don't know. I would really like to know when the new Necron construct is coming out as well. The best thing shown at warhamemr fest by far for me . Still wish we get some named characters from Forge World as well like Xun'Bakyr - a badass female necron character that has never gotten a model.
I agree, or even some of the Maynarkh characters even. That would be really nice
Last year I checked FW every friday wanting to see the new product.
Nowadays I only see that they are removing products.
So far i havent start a Death Korps army noran Alpha legion army because of their new "strategy" of removing things to have more space (for the new ugly khorne dragon i guess?) and the lack of communication.
If they dont sell well is purely because their prices, but GW will never change that. I would have started an horus heresy army earlier (i have a very big army of custodes) if they offered reasonably discounts on buying packs of marines+weapons+legion specific bits, but no, they cost a damn kidney and a eye.
But yes it's the customers who are unscrupulous here, right?
Um, yes.. that's how morality and the law work when someone knowingly and voluntarily seeks out counterfeit luxury goods. And I say that as a relentless critic of GW's pricing. Last I checked, no Western nation guarantees free or even affordable access to every want their citizens desire. Gw is free to charge whatever they want and customers are free to ignore them if what they're asking is unreasonable. Do I personally care if others but recasts? No, not at all in large part because I agree that GWs prices are ridiculous...but call a spade a spade and don't pretend that they're not breaking the law not that they're occupying some imaginary Robin Hoodesque morale high ground either.
Ummm no, that's now how morality works. Just because you are legally within your rights does not mean you are morally in the right to purposely charge 60% more to another country for no reason. Is there a 60% import tax that I am unaware of?
You didnt actually read anything I said did you? I'm betting you didnt because I literally said "Gw is within their rights to charge however much they want". No one is arguing against that. But that doesnt mean they themselves are not to blame for them losing business to recasters. That also does not mean that GW charging 60% more for living in another country is morally acceptable. legally sure, but morally? Hell no.
I also find it hard to believe that you are a 'relentlessness critic' of GW prices if you are trying to justify this. it's kind of laughable honestly. By your logic, literally anything that is legal is morally acceptable. That seems to be the arbitrary line that you created to determine what is morally acceptable and what is not.
Lol, your entire premise boils down to two wrongs make a right. I hate to break it too you but that's not how the saying goes.
But yes it's the customers who are unscrupulous here, right?
Um, yes.. that's how morality and the law work when someone knowingly and voluntarily seeks out counterfeit luxury goods. And I say that as a relentless critic of GW's pricing. Last I checked, no Western nation guarantees free or even affordable access to every want their citizens desire. Gw is free to charge whatever they want and customers are free to ignore them if what they're asking is unreasonable. Do I personally care if others but recasts? No, not at all in large part because I agree that GWs prices are ridiculous...but call a spade a spade and don't pretend that they're not breaking the law not that they're occupying some imaginary Robin Hoodesque morale high ground either.
Ummm no, that's now how morality works. Just because you are legally within your rights does not mean you are morally in the right to purposely charge 60% more to another country for no reason. Is there a 60% import tax that I am unaware of?
You didnt actually read anything I said did you? I'm betting you didnt because I literally said "Gw is within their rights to charge however much they want". No one is arguing against that. But that doesnt mean they themselves are not to blame for them losing business to recasters. That also does not mean that GW charging 60% more for living in another country is morally acceptable. legally sure, but morally? Hell no.
I also find it hard to believe that you are a 'relentlessness critic' of GW prices if you are trying to justify this. it's kind of laughable honestly. By your logic, literally anything that is legal is morally acceptable. That seems to be the arbitrary line that you created to determine what is morally acceptable and what is not.
Lol, your entire premise boils down to two wrongs make a right. I hate to break it too you but that's not how the saying goes.
No, that wasnt my point at all. That's a strawman fallacy too btw. Again, if you had read what I said then you might understand that.
Again it seems like you are just trying to argue a technicality here in regards to whats legal... without realizing that was never the argument to begin with.
Let's end this here before we derail the thread. If you would like to continue this discussion send me a PM.
No, that wasnt my point at all. That's a strawman fallacy too btw. Again, if you had read what I said then you might understand that.
It's not a straw man argument but rather exactly what you're claiming and I have no interest in discussing it with you via PM if you can't realize that basic fact. The post I responded to specifically was arguing against calling customers who voluntarily purchase counterfeit goods "unscrupulous" and your responses since clarified that Gw pricing justify it. Again, I don't care if people do it nor do I care about potential loses to GWs bottom line as long as folks are honest about what they're doing. Either way, I agree it's not worth further derailing the thread but I'm sure you'll want to get in the last word so feel free.
Honestly I'm actually liking the removal of certain items from the store, it shows that Forgeworld are tracking what sells and what doesn't. The items being binned are clearly the ones that have stagnated sales for one reason or another and need to cut from the catalogue to make way for newer or better selling items.
No, that wasnt my point at all. That's a strawman fallacy too btw. Again, if you had read what I said then you might understand that.
It's not a straw man argument but rather exactly what you're claiming and I have no interest in discussing it with you via PM if you can't realize that basic fact. The post I responded to specifically was arguing against calling customers who voluntarily purchase counterfeit goods "unscrupulous" and your responses since clarified that Gw pricing justify it. Again, I don't care if people do it now do I care about potential loses to GWs bottom line as long as folks are honest about what they're doing. Either way, I agree it's not worth further detailing the thread but I'm sure you'll want to get in the last word so feel free.
That's exactly what you just did - ignore my points and instead create a new simplified and easily counter-able argument out of what you selectively see apparently when arguing with people. If you can;t use google then then that's your own fault lol. You obviously have some trouble following basic logic so I figured I would let this go to Pm to save you the embarrassment.
I explained why many of the customers who buy resculpts are not in the process of "having or showing no moral principles". GW demands more money from certain people simply to take advantage of of their legal right to do so. No one is arguing that they are not within their rights to charge not only absurd prices but also charge more from certain people just because they can. Your initial argument was literally just clarifying that when no clarification was needed. There was no argument to be had that GW was not within their rights to whatever they want with pricing, so why you even brought that up is kind of funny to me. You see, you are confusing morality with a technicality. Yes, GW can LEGALLY do whatever they want, but it's far more complicated than that when we talk about the morally of this situation. I advise you to reread some of your posts because you arent really following your own logic here. Either that or you see morality as black and white, apparently completely dictaded by breaking the law or not.
You don't even seem to know what you are arguing against here either.
I was pointing out that recasters can actually help the hobby by creating a customer where there might not otherwise be one, GW can make recasters less prevalent by simply lowering prices or at the very least charging near the same amount regardless of where you live. I was also pointing out that if people buying recastors makes them unscrupulous then GW is far more unscrupulous than they are, especially in the cases of certain countries that objectively get screwed over by GW for no discernible reason. Do I believe that making recasts is the right thing to do? Perhaps not, but I will not judge someone from buying recasts, especially if they are literally unable to play the game because of the prices GW has put in place. A customer has the right to speak out if they are not being treated properly, and if hurting GW's sales is a way of speaking out as a customer buying recasts then that is well within you rights.
So GW screws people over, then people respond because they don't want to get screwed over. GW created the issue and perpetuates the issue. It's only in some cases where the customers respond by buying recasts. So this is a GW created issue, they know it's an issue, they perpetuate the issue, and somehow they are not unscrupulous? Somehow Cusotmers are on the same level as them for NOT wanting to get screwed over?
Do I believe that 2 wrongs make a right? That's a very narrow-minded way of looking at my argument. No I don't, but don't blame people or say they are amoral for not wanting to get screwed over by something they obviously want to like. If someone is screwing you over and you fight back, does mean you are were doing something wrong? By that logic you should just accept everything anyone could do to you so you don't and don't respond with anything because then you take the risk having '2 wrongs make a right'. GW screwing over the customers and the customers buying recasts are not even at same level of what could be considered morally wrong (that's a false equivalency).
If I want to play warhammer but simply can not afford it because of the ludicrous prices (especially if I live in 1 of a certain few countries) and so I buy some recasts of things that I need to make an army and then spend the rest on actual GW models..... that is not morally wrong. Not only am I giving GW money that they otherwise would not get, but everyone wins. And it just may send a message that GW needs to fix their prices. As a third party individual I also would not blame that person for seeking out a cheaper alternative. Do you really think all people buy recasts out of spite? Is it not possible that someone wants to get into warhammer but they canta nd so they seek alternatives? And again, this is a GW created and perpetuated issue. It's the customers who are forced into working around it. Call me crazy but I dont see many Warmachine recasts or Infinity recasts, maybe that's because they treat their customer with some degree of respect?
And again if we are going to call the customers who buy recasts amoral then that makes GW much worse. Again, GW knows their prices are too high and they know they screw over certain countries far more than others. But because they are legally within their rights, that keeps them from being unscrupulous, right?
And since you are refusing to take this to PMs I am going to have to ignore you. I dont want to derail the thread any more unlike you.
No, that wasnt my point at all. That's a strawman fallacy too btw. Again, if you had read what I said then you might understand that.
It's not a straw man argument but rather exactly what you're claiming and I have no interest in discussing it with you via PM if you can't realize that basic fact. The post I responded to specifically was arguing against calling customers who voluntarily purchase counterfeit goods "unscrupulous" and your responses since clarified that Gw pricing justify it. Again, I don't care if people do it now do I care about potential loses to GWs bottom line as long as folks are honest about what they're doing. Either way, I agree it's not worth further detailing the thread but I'm sure you'll want to get in the last word so feel free.
That's exactly what you just did - ignore my points and instead create a new simplified and easily counter-able argument out of what you selectively see apparently when arguing with people. If you can;t use google then then that's your own fault lol. You obviously have some trouble following basic logic so I figured I would let this go to Pm to save you the embarrassment.
I explained why many of the customers who buy resculpts are not in the process of "having or showing no moral principles". GW demands more money from certain people simply to take advantage of of their legal right to do so. No one is arguing that they are not within their rights to charge not only absurd prices but also charge more from certain people just because they can. Your initial argument was literally just clarifying that when no clarification was needed. There was no argument to be had that GW was not within their rights to whatever they want with pricing, so why you even brought that up is kind of funny to me. You see, you are confusing morality with a technicality. Yes, GW can LEGALLY do whatever they want, but it's far more complicated than that when we talk about the morally of this situation. I advise you to reread some of your posts because you arent really following your own logic here. Either that or you see morality as black and white, apparently completely dictaded by breaking the law or not.
You don't even seem to know what you are arguing against here either.
I was pointing out that recasters can actually help the hobby by creating a customer where there might not otherwise be one, GW can make recasters less prevalent by simply lowering prices or at the very least charging near the same amount regardless of where you live. I was also pointing out that if people buying recastors makes them unscrupulous then GW is far more unscrupulous than they are, especially in the cases of certain countries that objectively get screwed over by GW for no discernible reason. Do I believe that making recasts is the right thing to do? Perhaps not, but I will not judge someone from buying recasts, especially if they are literally unable to play the game because of the prices GW has put in place. A customer has the right to speak out if they are not being treated properly, and if hurting GW's sales is a way of speaking out as a customer buying recasts then that is well within you rights.
So GW screws people over, then people respond because they don't want to get screwed over. GW created the issue and perpetuates the issue. It's only in some cases where the customers respond by buying recasts. So this is a GW created issue, they know it's an issue, they perpetuate the issue, and somehow they are not unscrupulous? Somehow Cusotmers are on the same level as them for NOT wanting to get screwed over?
Do I believe that 2 wrongs make a right? That's a very narrow-minded way of looking at my argument. No I don't, but don't blame people or say they are amoral for not wanting to get screwed over by something they obviously want to like. If someone is screwing you over and you fight back, does mean you are were doing something wrong? By that logic you should just accept everything anyone could do to you so you don't and don't respond with anything because then you take the risk having '2 wrongs make a right'. GW screwing over the customers and the customers buying recasts are not even at same level of what could be considered morally wrong (that's a false equivalency).
If I want to play warhammer but simply can not afford it because of the ludicrous prices (especially if I live in 1 of a certain few countries) and so I buy some recasts of things that I need to make an army and then spend the rest on actual GW models..... that is not morally wrong. Not only am I giving GW money that they otherwise would not get, but everyone wins. And it just may send a message that GW needs to fix their prices. As a third party individual I also would not blame that person for seeking out a cheaper alternative. Do you really think all people buy recasts out of spite? Is it not possible that someone wants to get into warhammer but they canta nd so they seek alternatives? And again, this is a GW created and perpetuated issue. It's the customers who are forced into working around it. Call me crazy but I dont see many Warmachine recasts or Infinity recasts, maybe that's because they treat their customer with some degree of respect?
And again if we are going to call the customers who buy recasts amoral then that makes GW much worse. Again, GW knows their prices are too high and they know they screw over certain countries far more than others. But because they are legally within their rights, that keeps them from being unscrupulous, right?
And since you are refusing to take this to PMs I am going to have to ignore you. I dont want to derail the thread any more unlike you.
It's not a straw man when your points have zero merit. Everybody here understands what it is you're saying, and everyone here understands that you couldn't be more wrong if you tried.
No, that wasnt my point at all. That's a strawman fallacy too btw. Again, if you had read what I said then you might understand that.
It's not a straw man argument but rather exactly what you're claiming and I have no interest in discussing it with you via PM if you can't realize that basic fact. The post I responded to specifically was arguing against calling customers who voluntarily purchase counterfeit goods "unscrupulous" and your responses since clarified that Gw pricing justify it. Again, I don't care if people do it now do I care about potential loses to GWs bottom line as long as folks are honest about what they're doing. Either way, I agree it's not worth further detailing the thread but I'm sure you'll want to get in the last word so feel free.
That's exactly what you just did - ignore my points and instead create a new simplified and easily counter-able argument out of what you selectively see apparently when arguing with people. If you can;t use google then then that's your own fault lol. You obviously have some trouble following basic logic so I figured I would let this go to Pm to save you the embarrassment.
I explained why many of the customers who buy resculpts are not in the process of "having or showing no moral principles". GW demands more money from certain people simply to take advantage of of their legal right to do so. No one is arguing that they are not within their rights to charge not only absurd prices but also charge more from certain people just because they can. Your initial argument was literally just clarifying that when no clarification was needed. There was no argument to be had that GW was not within their rights to whatever they want with pricing, so why you even brought that up is kind of funny to me. You see, you are confusing morality with a technicality. Yes, GW can LEGALLY do whatever they want, but it's far more complicated than that when we talk about the morally of this situation. I advise you to reread some of your posts because you arent really following your own logic here. Either that or you see morality as black and white, apparently completely dictaded by breaking the law or not.
You don't even seem to know what you are arguing against here either.
I was pointing out that recasters can actually help the hobby by creating a customer where there might not otherwise be one, GW can make recasters less prevalent by simply lowering prices or at the very least charging near the same amount regardless of where you live. I was also pointing out that if people buying recastors makes them unscrupulous then GW is far more unscrupulous than they are, especially in the cases of certain countries that objectively get screwed over by GW for no discernible reason. Do I believe that making recasts is the right thing to do? Perhaps not, but I will not judge someone from buying recasts, especially if they are literally unable to play the game because of the prices GW has put in place. A customer has the right to speak out if they are not being treated properly, and if hurting GW's sales is a way of speaking out as a customer buying recasts then that is well within you rights.
So GW screws people over, then people respond because they don't want to get screwed over. GW created the issue and perpetuates the issue. It's only in some cases where the customers respond by buying recasts. So this is a GW created issue, they know it's an issue, they perpetuate the issue, and somehow they are not unscrupulous? Somehow Cusotmers are on the same level as them for NOT wanting to get screwed over?
Do I believe that 2 wrongs make a right? That's a very narrow-minded way of looking at my argument. No I don't, but don't blame people or say they are amoral for not wanting to get screwed over by something they obviously want to like. If someone is screwing you over and you fight back, does mean you are were doing something wrong? By that logic you should just accept everything anyone could do to you so you don't and don't respond with anything because then you take the risk having '2 wrongs make a right'. GW screwing over the customers and the customers buying recasts are not even at same level of what could be considered morally wrong (that's a false equivalency).
If I want to play warhammer but simply can not afford it because of the ludicrous prices (especially if I live in 1 of a certain few countries) and so I buy some recasts of things that I need to make an army and then spend the rest on actual GW models..... that is not morally wrong. Not only am I giving GW money that they otherwise would not get, but everyone wins. And it just may send a message that GW needs to fix their prices. As a third party individual I also would not blame that person for seeking out a cheaper alternative. Do you really think all people buy recasts out of spite? Is it not possible that someone wants to get into warhammer but they canta nd so they seek alternatives? And again, this is a GW created and perpetuated issue. It's the customers who are forced into working around it. Call me crazy but I dont see many Warmachine recasts or Infinity recasts, maybe that's because they treat their customer with some degree of respect?
And again if we are going to call the customers who buy recasts amoral then that makes GW much worse. Again, GW knows their prices are too high and they know they screw over certain countries far more than others. But because they are legally within their rights, that keeps them from being unscrupulous, right?
And since you are refusing to take this to PMs I am going to have to ignore you. I dont want to derail the thread any more unlike you.
It's not a straw man when your points have zero merit. Everybody here understands what it is you're saying, and everyone here understands that you couldn't be more wrong if you tried.
Lol and no argument provided whatsoever. If you would like to be proven wrong as well then send me a PM. I would LOVE to hear what you have to say.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: It's fascinating that you seem to have this great insiders knowledge of their costs, labour, taxes and utilities to have such an explicit knowledge of their costs and pricing strategy. Please enlighten us to all this detail.
He's probably been reading the numerous leaks on the subject of just how badly GW puts the thumbscrews to everyone, and 40k players in particular that have spewed forth for a while now.
As far as new FW rumors go, We got a healthy look at an anemic lineup at the weekender that at least has Necron players excited.
Crazyterran wrote: I'm still trying to figure out if the Mk4 dreads are going away like the email said, but the website doesn't have LCTB symbols beside them.
Back in WHFest they admitted their failings and adding some products to LCTB by mistake. So this might be just another case of their incompetence.
tneva82 wrote: Proves how? Fw can never equal price with recasters. Do you expect them to sell at loss?
That's not actually what he said, but, y'know, don't let facts get in the way of all that straw...
And anyway, if FW simply explained why all this stuff was vanishing we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
As I posted a few pages back, and a few other places have posted, at Warhammer fest in the FW seminar Tony confirmed that stuff was being removed that didn't sell. He also said Mark II in particular had very low sales its entire life.
Imagine that, the chunky, annoying to paint old armour that had less detail than mkiii and couldn’t match the sleek high tech look of miv didn’t sell well.
ImAGeek wrote: I love MkII personally, but it’s never been overly popular. Guess that rules out ever getting plastic MkII.
I like the look of MkII as well. Let’s not forget that the two legions most closely associated with MkII armour, the Dark Angels and the White Scars, haven’t had their time in the spotlight yet. How’s anyone going to make a fluffy White Scar armour when the next book is released if there’s no MkII armour available?
That was a rhetorical question btw. We all know how.
Looky Likey wrote: As I posted a few pages back, and a few other places have posted, at Warhammer fest in the FW seminar Tony confirmed that stuff was being removed that didn't sell. He also said Mark II in particular had very low sales its entire life.
Some guy in a seminar. Wonderful.
What I mean was an actual statement, on their Facebook, explaining why. A second hand story from an event isn't good enough.
Mental Surge wrote: Uhhh I think you missed the point. The point is that FW has no one but themselves to blame for people buying from recasters. No one is saying they are not within their rights to charge whatever they want, but they shouldnt be surprised if they are losing business. If they werent so greedy they wouldnt have this issue to begin with. Or at the very least the issue would not be anywhere near as prevalent. If it's their right to charge absurd prices then it's my right to buy from recasters.
Honestly though to call people unscrupulous because they want to buy the product for a reasonable price is kind of ignorant and close-minded. You are essentially telling people who want to get into 40k/30k but cant because they simply dont have the money to invest in it, amoral when in reality it's GW that created this issue to begin with. GW has NO ONE but themselves to blame for recasters. If you are going to charge some ludicrous prices for these models you better expect for people to buy from recasters. Especially when you look at how absurd the prices are in certain countries. look at Australia and New Zealand ffs. A box of FIVE Immortals costs 64$ in New Zealand. In the UK it costs 20 BP, which is about 39 New Zealand Dollars. That's about a 60% increase in cost.... for some reason. That is a straight up insult and GW has only themselves to blame for people wanting a cheaper alternative. But yes it's the customers who are unscrupulous here, right?
I would also add that recasters can help the hobby. For instance someone might invest into the hobby if they can get some products much cheaper. Even if they buy a SINGLE model from GW, that's one more model that GW sells that they might otherwise not sell if the person cant justify the financial investment to simply get into warhammer. Also someone who buys a model from a recaster probably would not have bought the model from GW/FW to begin with since they obviously can't justify the cost.
I got your point entirely and my point stands. Forgeworld are a maker of luxury non essential goods putting product to market in good faith. Whether people can afford the prices or not is moot. It's the same for any luxury good whether it's clothing, handbags, cars, or other miniature manufacturers etc etc. I'd personally love to be able to go out and buy an Ariel Atom at the price I want but I know that it's not going to happen. I will have to work at a certain level to earn the money to be able to afford it. Now you or others can rail at the pricing all you want and I acknowledge their pricing is inconsistent, but the fact is you are not entitled to their product at prices of your own choosing. If you want GW to change their behaviour, stop buying their product.
And, no, recasters damage the wider hobby in all ways, doesn't matter if it's recasts for Forgeworld, Kingdom Death, Dropzone Commander, etc. It takes money from the company, shows off a lower quality, potentially unsafe product and it devalues people's collections should they wish to resell. Finally, it goes without saying that buying from recasters is an unscrupulously activity regardless of the questionable motives for doing so.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ImAGeek wrote: I love MkII personally, but it’s never been overly popular. Guess that rules out ever getting plastic MkII.
So, Penddraig from heresy30k has done some probing at warhammer fest:
There has been so much discussion around this based on mis-information, assumption and guesswork. At the weekender in some Seminars the FW team were questioned about this and I also had a chat with individual members of the team – the feedback was consistent:
1. The items (paints and upgrades) were removed due to low sales by the main GW stock team – not a FW decision.
2. Just because an item is now gone, does not mean it won`t be later re-released – possibly as a made-to-order piece.
3. The paints were removed by non-hobbyists. The FW team are arguing for a return of certain colours that cannot be duplicated by the main range and are needed for painting certain armies – the main colours argued for include specific legion colours like Sons of Horus and the clears. There is a *small* chance that these colours could be returned in the future – possibly as part of the Citadel paint range allowing them to be sold in stores.
4. Stock space is very limited due to the range of kits now available and they can`t keep everything in stock all the time if it is not selling.
New models we saw this weekend for the Heresy was limited and the only two new units were the AoD land speeder with Mk.IV pilots and the new militia tank.
The new land-speeder includes all the options in the army list such as volkite, havoc launcher, heavy bolter etc. These have also been designed with magnet points for easy swopping around.
The new Militia tank based on the Aurox-Chassis is awesome. It comes stock with twin-linked autocannon turret and heavy flamer sponsons. Depending on whether it is for a Militia or Solar Auxilia army, you can then swop out weapons for more autocannon, volkite, lascannon etc. The tank and Aurox represent that in Rogue Trader, the Imperial Army could take land raiders, predators and rhinos. This reflects the predator. Its cheap in points (60pts) and has armour similar to the Predator (12/11/10) and comes in squadrons. The rules will eventually appear in 40k as well.
zedmeister wrote: The new Militia tank based on the Aurox-Chassis is awesome. It comes stock with twin-linked autocannon turret and heavy flamer sponsons. Depending on whether it is for a Militia or Solar Auxilia army, you can then swop out weapons for more autocannon, volkite, lascannon etc. The tank and Aurox represent that in Rogue Trader, the Imperial Army could take land raiders, predators and rhinos. This reflects the predator. Its cheap in points (60pts) and has armour similar to the Predator (12/11/10) and comes in squadrons. The rules will eventually appear in 40k as well.
It will be interesting to see what kind of vehicle they'll produce to represent a not-Land Raider then.
Jesus just what 40K needs Guard with a quad lascannon predator in squadrons
On the pricing, all of you complaining about the difference between recaster prices and FW prices, you do realise that recasters have no development costs or rules team to support which adds to the amount of money FW has to charge for their products.
Development costs are usually a significant proportion of the cost of any low production volume product, which is what FW models are.
It's slightly disappointing that GW is letting clueless muppets who don't understand that FW providing paints that GW doesn't isn't undercutting the GW paint line dictate what FW can and can't sell.
Hopefully FW can keep producing new models outwith specialist games, though I think specialist games are consuming almost all of FW resources.
Ice_can wrote: Jesus just what 40K needs Guard with a quad lascannon predator in squadrons
On the pricing, all of you complaining about the difference between recaster prices and FW prices, you do realise that recasters have no development costs or rules team to support which adds to the amount of money FW has to charge for their products.
Development costs are usually a significant proportion of the cost of any low production volume product, which is what FW models are.
It's slightly disappointing that GW is letting clueless muppets who don't understand that FW providing paints that GW doesn't isn't undercutting the GW paint line dictate what FW can and can't sell.
Hopefully FW can keep producing new models outwith specialist games, though I think specialist games are consuming almost all of FW resources.
Specialist games is designed to kill off Forgeworld by eating up all there resources to the point that the main design studio can argue that since all that FW make is boxed games sold in stores and a handful of add ons for these that there is no reason for FW anymore.
FW is in a fairly desperate battle for It's existance at the moment and it appears to be losing, if they lost the paint range because it overlaps product from the main studio then I would expect DKOK to be next and anything not directly heresy related to be at risk as well.
If the HH required paints didnt sell, maybe HH wasnt as popular as everyone was lead to believe by the internet, and Calth and Prospero selling so well had to do with the fact that Calth is still the best money for value Space Marine box available, and Prospero for about a year or so was the only eay to get Sisters of Silence and Custodes, which encouraged a lot of boxes to be bought, cracked open, and parted out.
SeanDrake wrote: Specialist games is designed to kill off Forgeworld by eating up all there resources to the point that the main design studio can argue that since all that FW make is boxed games sold in stores and a handful of add ons for these that there is no reason for FW anymore.
FW is in a fairly desperate battle for It's existance at the moment and it appears to be losing, if they lost the paint range because it overlaps product from the main studio then I would expect DKOK to be next and anything not directly heresy related to be at risk as well.
I suspect that you have hit the nail on the head, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, it's a safe bet it's a duck.
HH showed that FW could do better than the main studio. I suspect that put a few people in the hump and I also suspect that their is resentment of the autonomy that FW have compared to the main studio.
Though it would be sad to see FW be rolled into the main studio as I doubt we would have half of what they have done over the years had the main studio had a say in the matter.
HH showed that FW could do better than the main studio. I suspect that put a few people in the hump and I also suspect that their is resentment of the autonomy that FW have compared to the main studio.
A few years ago I would have agreed, but I think GW have really upped their game in the last couple of years. The minis they’re producing now are the best they’ve ever done. Primaris marines (the models not the fluff) are the marines I’ve wanted since getting into the hobby, GW’s Custodes range is much better than FW’s imho. I still really like FW’s vehicles, but HH’s stunted little marines feels like the best of the bad old days to me.
I don’t know if there really was any resentment in the GW design studio, but if there was, I’d say it made GW up it’s game rather than try to kill FW.
I doubt it would be the actual model designers etc that would be the issue it's the managment types who keep large chunks of GW in the dark as to what's going on and seem more interested in building their own control over what is best for the company.
I suspect that office politics is out of control at GW and it's unfortunately probably going to get worse before it gets better, unless something is done about it.
Though I do suspect that a large community reaction would be required for senior managment to pay attention.
Ice_can wrote: I doubt it would be the actual model designers etc that would be the issue it's the managment types who keep large chunks of GW in the dark as to what's going on and seem more interested in building their own control over what is best for the company.
I suspect that office politics is out of control at GW and it's unfortunately probably going to get worse before it gets better, unless something is done about it.
Though I do suspect that a large community reaction would be required for senior managment to pay attention.
Is this speculation actually based on anything more that seeing what they’re choosing to release?
It’s just as plausible to say that the HH range may be being reduced because it isn’t selling well. Specialist games are being promoted within the company because they do sell.
SeanDrake wrote: Specialist games is designed to kill off Forgeworld by eating up all there resources to the point that the main design studio can argue that since all that FW make is boxed games sold in stores and a handful of add ons for these that there is no reason for FW anymore.
FW is in a fairly desperate battle for It's existance at the moment and it appears to be losing, if they lost the paint range because it overlaps product from the main studio then I would expect DKOK to be next and anything not directly heresy related to be at risk as well.
I suspect that you have hit the nail on the head, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, it's a safe bet it's a duck.
HH showed that FW could do better than the main studio. I suspect that put a few people in the hump and I also suspect that their is resentment of the autonomy that FW have compared to the main studio.
Though it would be sad to see FW be rolled into the main studio as I doubt we would have half of what they have done over the years had the main studio had a say in the matter.
I am disappointed. We have 2 baseless conspiracy theories in a row and not 1 mention of :
1. Illuminati
2. Chemtrails
3. Area 51
4. Fluoride in the drinking water.
zedmeister wrote: The items (paints and upgrades) were removed due to low sales by the main GW stock team – not a FW decision.
...
The paints were removed by non-hobbyists.
And here we come back to the fundamental truth of the situation: GW management continues to demonstrate their sheer incompetence, and should be fired (and probably blacklisted from ever working in the industry again). Get rid of all the ing idiots who think that having a business degree is all they need to understand a complex niche-market industry. But sadly that will never happen, since the ing idiots are running the company and have no incentive to leave. And sadly, with GW's financial reports looking better these days, the odds of FFG/WOTC/etc buying GW's IP and dumping all the redundant mangament idiots grow smaller and smaller.
It's a shame the paints have gone, as since they were stuck as direct order from FW only they were never going to be huge sellers as it was really espensive to order just one or two once you figure in shipping
so in general they'd be order fillers, or one off large orders or people just wouldn't bother
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: It's a shame the paints have gone, as since they were stuck as direct order from FW only they were never going to be huge sellers as it was really espensive to order just one or two once you figure in shipping
so in general they'd be order fillers, or one off large orders or people just wouldn't bother
That’s something that’s always bothered me about FW. Why can I get free shipping from GW if I spend £40, but I need to spend £250 at FW? Why can’t I put in one order that contains a mix of GW and FW stuff?
Whether people can afford the prices or not is moot.
It's not at all - when suppliers set a price higher than people are willing to pay they set up a situation where other suppliers who can undercut the price can get that subset of people who won't pay the set price but can still pay enough to cover making the product.
It's econ 101, that's how markets work.
It takes money from the company,
If people who buy recasts are "too poor" to afford their "luxury non-essential goods" then how is taking sales away from the company? Those people wouldn't have bought anyway.
shows off a lower quality
Debatable, there's a broad range and it depends on the recaster.
potentially unsafe product
Yep, heard this one too - because everyone knows Chinese resin has uranium and DDT in it. I'm hyperbolizing here because it's a baseless claim.
Finally, it goes without saying that buying from recasters is an unscrupulously activity regardless of the questionable motives for doing so.
There's some activities society prohibits out of necessity (murder, etc) and there's some it prohibits to protect certain economic interests. This is most definitely the latter, no matter how much people like to fake outrage that it's the former.
---
Imagine that, the chunky, annoying to paint old armour that had less detail than mkiii and couldn’t match the sleek high tech look of miv didn’t sell well.
Lol, spot on. When I was picking up 30k (when Betrayal at Calth came out and I could do it in plastic) I can't remember anyone being gung-ho for Mk II armor. Maybe a squad here or there, but no one made an army of it like they did Mk III or Mk IV.
ScarletRose wrote: It's not at all - when suppliers set a price higher than people are willing to pay they set up a situation where other suppliers who can undercut the price can get that subset of people who won't pay the set price but can still pay enough to cover making the product.
It's econ 101, that's how markets work.
If people who buy recasts are "too poor" to afford their "luxury non-essential goods" then how is taking sales away from the company? Those people wouldn't have bought anyway.
Debatable, there's a broad range and it depends on the recaster.
Yep, heard this one too - because everyone knows Chinese resin has uranium and DDT in it. I'm hyperbolizing here because it's a baseless claim.
There's some activities society prohibits out of necessity (murder, etc) and there's some it prohibits to protect certain economic interests. This is most definitely the latter, no matter how much people like to fake outrage that it's the former.
Markets work when there is a legal framework to protect ones patent or intellectual property. Having another company such as Privateer Press or Kingdom Death come in and undercut GW with a superior product is legitimate competition. Having a bunch of immoral IP thieves selling your own product isn't competition. And, although we don't know the reasons for people using recasts, people buying them still cheapens the wider hobby and sets a bad precedent. As for the safety issue, well note my use of the term potentially. What safety tests have the recasters been forced to go through? Are they using resin safe for consumer use? There's plenty of other questions to ask on that, that you won't get answers to.
Finally, as mentioned above, without a Framework to protect IP and patents, we wouldn't have the modern world. It is protecting someones economic interests and that's not a bad thing. People want to get paid and make a living regardless of the company size. We can argue over what is right or wrong with the current law as well as what could be improved till the cows come home, but it doesn't escape the fact that recasting is morally and legally wrong.
Looky Likey wrote: As I posted a few pages back, and a few other places have posted, at Warhammer fest in the FW seminar Tony confirmed that stuff was being removed that didn't sell. He also said Mark II in particular had very low sales its entire life.
Some guy in a seminar. Wonderful.
What I mean was an actual statement, on their Facebook, explaining why. A second hand story from an event isn't good enough.
Tony just some guy, and an official seminar at the largest Warhammer event just some seminar? Wow
If you actually bother to look elsewhere there has been plenty of corroboration. I believe he answered the exact same question on both days' seminars as well.
SeanDrake wrote: Specialist games is designed to kill off Forgeworld by eating up all there resources to the point that the main design studio can argue that since all that FW make is boxed games sold in stores and a handful of add ons for these that there is no reason for FW anymore.
FW is in a fairly desperate battle for It's existance at the moment and it appears to be losing, if they lost the paint range because it overlaps product from the main studio then I would expect DKOK to be next and anything not directly heresy related to be at risk as well.
I suspect that you have hit the nail on the head, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, it's a safe bet it's a duck.
HH showed that FW could do better than the main studio. I suspect that put a few people in the hump and I also suspect that their is resentment of the autonomy that FW have compared to the main studio.
Though it would be sad to see FW be rolled into the main studio as I doubt we would have half of what they have done over the years had the main studio had a say in the matter.
I am disappointed. We have 2 baseless conspiracy theories in a row and not 1 mention of :
1. Illuminati
2. Chemtrails
3. Area 51
4. Fluoride in the drinking water.
2/10 guys. Post harder.
Precisely, Mr Kronk, I never knew Alex Jones was a GW fan...
Don't believe I've heard anything this bonkers in quite a while. As far as I'm aware FW enjoys far more influence now than it has in any other time in it's history.
FW is simply doing what any business does: remove bad selling lines or lines that nearly duplicate existing lines.
The weapons have similar versions available. The legion parts you can replicate with plastic and brass etch in most cases. The paint was for airbrushes which, judging from my own anecdotal experiences, are a minority use item.
For all we know they will relaunch the paint in a paintableform that you just thin for airbrush use.
Titanicus is going to need FW for engine variants. This year's FW open day has had seminars added, at no extra cost. They are brining an IA book out for Talons.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I had a feeling someone would say that, which is why I had a second part of my post that you ignored. Here, let me quote myself to help you out:
What I mean was an actual statement, on their Facebook, explaining why. A second hand story from an event isn't good enough.
That hasn't happened.
I didn't ignore it I actually gave you a clear way to get a first hand source, and helpfully you then proceed to do exactly what you accused me of doing by ignoring my second part:
Why won't you contact them directly? I don't need to as I already have a first hand answer from them that I'm happy with but you clearly aren't happy. You have an easy way to get your first hand source but seemingly choose not to.
FW is simply doing what any business does: remove bad selling lines or lines that nearly duplicate existing lines.
But they did not remove duplicate lines as that would have been mark iv and I in.
The weapons have similar versions available. The legion parts you can replicate with plastic and brass etch in most cases. The paint was for airbrushes which, judging from my own anecdotal experiences, are a minority use item.
The weapons were not all duplicates and the duplicates are not compatible with the models they sell. There are no Legion plastic parts and brass etch was all ready starting to be canned. Airbrush use is quite high among people buying from FW due to the larger models and people wanting a good quality paint job on there exspensive kit.
For all we know they will relaunch the paint in a paintableform that you just thin for airbrush use.
Nope they are gone with no plans to replace them as per a number of responses from them directly.
Titanicus is going to need FW for engine variants. This year's FW open day has had seminars added, at no extra cost. They are brining an IA book out for Talons.
As I said if FW are reduced to resin components for boxed games then they may as well be part of the main studio, how many of these are related to what was FW core product HH and big centrepiece models?,The IA book for talons is for 40k at the request of management due to the great sales of the plastic line, it has further delayed the previously announced books.
Hardly evidence FW is going anywhere.
They have lost almost there entire staff to specialist games even the person who drew the transfer sheets has gone, they lost both experienced sculptors form the character series. The last few character pieces have been conversions of existing models rather than actual new sculpts, admittedly very good conversions on the most part but still.
TwilightSparkles wrote: Some crazy opinions masquerading as fact here.
They have lost almost there entire staff to specialist games even the person who drew the transfer sheets has gone
Holly Goodwin does them and she hasn't left FW, she was at Warhammer Fest last week.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I had a feeling someone would say that, which is why I had a second part of my post that you ignored. Here, let me quote myself to help you out:
What I mean was an actual statement, on their Facebook, explaining why. A second hand story from an event isn't good enough.
That hasn't happened.
I didn't ignore it I actually gave you a clear way to get a first hand source, and helpfully you then proceed to do exactly what you accused me of doing by ignoring my second part:
Why won't you contact them directly? I don't need to as I already have a first hand answer from them that I'm happy with but you clearly aren't happy. You have an easy way to get your first hand source but seemingly choose not to.
In addition, Facebook is in no way more official than announcing it at a GW event. If they want to do an official statement, then they should use the Community website, not FB where the message will be hard to find in a few hours.
zedmeister wrote: The new Militia tank based on the Aurox-Chassis is awesome. It comes stock with twin-linked autocannon turret and heavy flamer sponsons. Depending on whether it is for a Militia or Solar Auxilia army, you can then swop out weapons for more autocannon, volkite, lascannon etc. The tank and Aurox represent that in Rogue Trader, the Imperial Army could take land raiders, predators and rhinos. This reflects the predator. Its cheap in points (60pts) and has armour similar to the Predator (12/11/10) and comes in squadrons. The rules will eventually appear in 40k as well.
It will be interesting to see what kind of vehicle they'll produce to represent a not-Land Raider then.
Which strikes me as a waste of money for anybody that knows anything about the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy fluff.
Nothing is stopping somebody from building fluffy, a pre-Heresy Imperial Army force made up of Rhinos, Predators, and Land Raiders fpr casual games set during the Great Crusade. For armies built for the Heresy era, simply select "Survivors of a Dark Age" as your Provenance of War, and you can take Rhinos and Proteus Pattern Land Raiders as dedicated transports for your Imperial Army force.
But what the hell. If new shinies helps sell models, then no harm done.
They have lost almost there entire staff to specialist games even the person who drew the transfer sheets has gone, they lost both experienced sculptors form the character series. The last few character pieces have been conversions of existing models rather than actual new sculpts, admittedly very good conversions on the most part but still.
Specialist Games is part of Forge World, so FW isn’t going anywhere, the focus has just shifted atm.
Kind if disappointing since they had so much to show (and sell) at the convention they just had.
Orlock and Van Saar weapons, Human blood bowl booster, various cheer leaders, that star player, foot knights of Dol
Amroth, that new IA tank, Alpharius, the terminators...
12. If an entry is drawn which belongs to a resident of Canada, they must correctly answer a skill-testing question in order to win a prize, in accordance with Canadian law.
12. If an entry is drawn which belongs to a resident of Canada, they must correctly answer a skill-testing question in order to win a prize, in accordance with Canadian law.
How bizarre.
Try this one on:
The prize draws will take place at 23 Liverpool Street, Ingleburn NSW 2565, Australia at 10am (AEST) on the working day following the close of the competition.
Why's the drawing physically being held in Oz rather than at HQ?
12. If an entry is drawn which belongs to a resident of Canada, they must correctly answer a skill-testing question in order to win a prize, in accordance with Canadian law.
How bizarre.
Try this one on:
The prize draws will take place at 23 Liverpool Street, Ingleburn NSW 2565, Australia at 10am (AEST) on the working day following the close of the competition.
Why's the drawing physically being held in Oz rather than at HQ?
Maybe it's easier to draw in Australia and then give the price to someone in RoW than it is to draw in UK and give the price to an Australian?
As I recall the last few GW competitions have been void in NSW specifically, so everywhere except my specific state in my specific country could get involved.
Maybe to allow us to be involved it has to actually involve NSW in some way.
Crazyterran wrote: Kind if disappointing since they had so much to show (and sell) at the convention they just had.
Orlock and Van Saar weapons, Human blood bowl booster, various cheer leaders, that star player, foot knights of Dol
Amroth, that new IA tank, Alpharius, the terminators...
Couldn't agree more. Let me buy your stuff Forgeworld!
12. If an entry is drawn which belongs to a resident of Canada, they must correctly answer a skill-testing question in order to win a prize, in accordance with Canadian law.
How bizarre.
Its usually something simple like 2+6/2. So i guess if anyone who doesnt know the answer is 5 would be sad, but...
I suspose that is one way to deal with them culling their Mailing list or GDPR.
A new UK online privacy law came into effect today. I assume its related to that. Have been getting lots of UK game company emails asking for confirmation that I want to remain on their mailing lists.
It's a Europe wide law (and hits companies trading with Europe too),
basically you'll have to agree to stay on mailing lists and other things where they don't need to have your data, and provide an easy way to unsubscribe if you want to on all communications
plus other more complicated stuff about how they hold and use data (all to the benefit of the individual)
I guess that they AT LEAST listened to all the feedback and now these last chance to buys are more like "last chance to buy, but you can order as much as you like and we will cast them out", because nothing - except for Servo Skulls - went out of stock for nearly 1.5 weeks. And I've read people buying as much as 5 sets of bolters...
Anyways, anyone wanna bet what tomorrow brings? Resin Tartaros might as well just be booted...
Crazyterran wrote: What did you order and did you email customer service?
Three drop sentinels and a Elysian mortar squad. and yes. They've never replied.
1) Check your spam folder. It happened to me once that the dispatch note went to spam folder.
2) Call them. It also happened that my email somehow went to their spam folder.
A new Knight would be awesome. Though I really doubt it since they've only shown renders so far.
I stopped e-mailing Forgeworld a long time ago. I think they are swamped with mails, so it takes them way too long to answer. Calling them is much faster.
My order didn't ship for one month, as I had some Alpha Legion stuff that got sold out before my order could be shipped. I got info during the phone call that those kits would be re-casted to fill those last chance orders, but that could take months to get finished. So I asked for those parts to be removed and refunded from my order, and send the rest. The guy did that during the phone call, fast and easy.
So call them, that always goes a lot better in my experience.
I imagine the next thing we will get is the Alpha Legion, inless they are saving them for the run up to the next book. Theres also another tank for Solar Auxilia (if im remebering right), Jenetia Krole, a few more Talons things I believe, and then theres a slew of Characters they could release, not to mention the Talons IA, Fires, and the HH book.
Then a lot of Blood Bowl around when they plan on releasing the Dark Elves, such as the boosters and cheer leaders. I think we have all the big guys for the teams they have in the official section of the almanac, right?
Theres also the Hobbit foot knights of Dol Amroth. I think there was a few other things, too.
Van Saar and Orlock weapon kits for Necromunda, not even mentioning the big guys and hirelings for that.
Good thing I ordered my UM ven dread and Chaplain dread during the deal they were having, since they hinted they were going to during the email two weeks ago. Doesnt seem like the Asscannon Razorback turret is going away, just the HB,
MM, most of the Dreadnought stuff and a few underselling doors, i expect.
Urgh, painful. I really hope this isn’t dreadnoughts losing the majority of their wargear options in future updates. The only non-chapter specific HQ dread too.
I normally don't care at all about official paintwork, but did they just forget to fully paint the axes? The back of the blade and the top of the shaft just look like they were basecoated the same as the rest of the Terminator but not otherwise touched.
The dreadnoughts going doesn't surprise me. Regular dreads ain't good at all. FW have made sure normal dreads have no place with their special dread ironically.
I noticed that the new termite is avalaible in the online store under the
Renegade & heretics category.
Interesting to me because apparently it is only avalaible to chaos marines in 40K.
Since no other chaos marine unit is avalaible in this category (even the 2 flyers are not there)
does this means that the reference sheet is wrong, or did I missed something?
Tune in Wathammer twitch today, they might say or show something interesting. Or, maybe, at least say when Arvus and Angron are going to be back in stock again
*The moderator should be someone who actually knows what Acastus Knight is, how Cyraxus is spelled and what armies are going to be featured next. It just doesn't sound professional.
*Lots of "not now, but in the future".
*867 viewers.
*Lots of Praetors coming in. Was BA praetor revealed? If it wasn't, it was done now.
*Ordinatus Mole is a physical thing.
*The's something bigger that did not fit in the large orange box they brought in. Maybe psychic Warlord?
*Heresy is not dead and most certainly stay 7th, because they think that it's more balanced for Heresy, and having many different gaming systems is a great thing.
*They remove models that can be somehow replaced or will be replaced. Plastic MK2 incoming?
*Chaos Warhound needs remolding.
*They don't want to do orks and eldar, because HH is about civil war. There's a possibility for other aliens, but there's SO much work to be done, it's just not likely to happen.
*Made to order, as long as it was not replaced by something else. So, probably, no oldschool Lightning, but maybe Macharius Omega and the likes.
CragHack sums it up pretty well. New Blood Angel Praetor here:
While I did appreciate the enthusiasm about Horus Heresy, and the whole "Heresy lives!" thing, they really didn't give us anything new. We got to see the Mole, and a picture of the Praetor above. I mean It's better than nothing, but all I heard was excuses. Why are things taking so long? Why are things disappearing? They sound so happy about Horus Heresy, and they really seem to love it, but it just doesn't show in the release schedules in my opinion.
Oh well, it was a good time mostly, just a bit underwhelming I suppose.
alleus wrote: While I did appreciate the enthusiasm about Horus Heresy, and the whole "Heresy lives!" thing, they really didn't give us anything new. We got to see the Mole, and a picture of the Praetor above. I mean It's better than nothing, but all I heard was excuses. Why are things taking so long? Why are things disappearing? They sound so happy about Horus Heresy, and they really seem to love it, but it just doesn't show in the release schedules in my opinion.
Oh well, it was a good time mostly, just a bit underwhelming I suppose.
Well, the black books usually are a big driver of releases, and as The Eagles said, we haven't that spirit here since 1969. I'd look for a burst of releases in 2019 with book VIII (because it's good policy to add at least 3 months to any timeframe that FW gives you).
It also seems clear enough to me (others will certainly disagree) that HH will continue to putter along and be supported with cool stuff, but probably will never become a near-core game like it seemed it would a couple years ago. Alan Bligh's passing has a lot to do with that, but I also think it's getting lost a bit amid GW's hyperspeed release schedule. Add it all up and it's understandable that the excitement/momentum/juice doesn't feel quite like it did a while back.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Confirmation that all daemon primarchs will have models from forge-world. And possible secondary versions of Loyalist Primarchs.
Really? That seems like an about face. Not long before Magnus was revealed, someone from the FW team coyly answered a question about daemon primarchs by saying that the technology was there to do them in plastic instead. Post-Magnus, the assumption by most was that FW would just let GW handle the daemonic versions. Which have been pretty spectacular models. I'm not sure why they'd do resin versions as well...?
*Heresy is not dead and most certainly stay 7th, because they think that it's more balanced for Heresy, and having many different gaming systems is a great thing.
Yey. Excelent news. Now hopefully they will have will to finetune it even better.
*They remove models that can be somehow replaced or will be replaced. Plastic MK2 incoming?
gorgon wrote: I'm not sure why they'd do resin versions as well...?
Hopefully less overblinged models so those who like quality rather than bling for bling's sake can get one.
They're daemon primarchs, not tactical marines.
So? Overblinged model is still overblinged. With that big model it just gives them even more room for overbling. GW has this obsession that more bling=better model when it's actually reverse
Yes, it has to be re-written to fit into 8th story and rules. It isn't being worked on at all right now. This is coming from the writer.
Jesus on a pogo stick, they've had an year to rewrite it! Considering how gak FW rules quality generally, is, it really cannot take that long to do it.
They literally haven't even been working on it. I would expect to see it late 2019 at the earliest. 2018 is a complete no-go for Cyraxus now.
And they have said they have planned at least one or two new books (for custodes and sisters of silence?) to come out first, so really, 2020-2022 could be a more reasonable estimate.
At that point ironically it might not even be 8th edition any more.
So yeah, want to use your Mechanicum models? Best start proxying them as Adeptus Mechanicus (who are not strong by the way, so really you should just sell if you are holding Mechanicum and wanting to play it in 40k)
Yes, it has to be re-written to fit into 8th story and rules. It isn't being worked on at all right now. This is coming from the writer.
Jesus on a pogo stick, they've had an year to rewrite it! Considering how gak FW rules quality generally, is, it really cannot take that long to do it.
So the writer was on the stream. He said they had it done for 7th edition, and then 8th dropped. The writer is also the manager of the Specialist Games section, so... given that FW is insanely understaffed, FoC is just a pipe dream at this point in time.
They don't have the staff to do half of the work they want to. That was the main thrust of the entire stream.
Yes, it has to be re-written to fit into 8th story and rules. It isn't being worked on at all right now. This is coming from the writer.
Jesus on a pogo stick, they've had an year to rewrite it! Considering how gak FW rules quality generally, is, it really cannot take that long to do it.
So the writer was on the stream. He said they had it done for 7th edition, and then 8th dropped. The writer is also the manager of the Specialist Games section, so... given that FW is insanely understaffed, FoC is just a pipe dream at this point in time.
They don't have the staff to do half of the work they want to. That was the main thrust of the entire stream.
They keep making that excuse, but they also keep claiming they're hiring on new staff - these guys are evidently gaking gold bars at the moment as far as GW's bottom line is concerned, how the hell do they *still* not have the resources they need to make the most of their successes?
I'm starting to think those vague rumours about some of the main studio bigwigs being unhappy at FW/SGs success and autonomy and engaging in office politicking to curb them are more plausible than we initially assumed.
Yes, it has to be re-written to fit into 8th story and rules. It isn't being worked on at all right now. This is coming from the writer.
Jesus on a pogo stick, they've had an year to rewrite it! Considering how gak FW rules quality generally, is, it really cannot take that long to do it.
So the writer was on the stream. He said they had it done for 7th edition, and then 8th dropped. The writer is also the manager of the Specialist Games section, so... given that FW is insanely understaffed, FoC is just a pipe dream at this point in time.
They don't have the staff to do half of the work they want to. That was the main thrust of the entire stream.
They keep making that excuse, but they also keep claiming they're hiring on new staff - these guys are evidently gaking gold bars at the moment as far as GW's bottom line is concerned, how the hell do they *still* not have the resources they need to make the most of their successes?
I'm starting to think those vague rumours about some of the main studio bigwigs being unhappy at FW/SGs success and autonomy and engaging in office politicking to curb them are more plausible than we initially assumed.
At the same time they're hiring new staff, they're now also doing Lord of the Rings, Adeptus Titanicus, Blood Bowl and Necromunda - the workload seems to be growing as fast as they're hiring staff. Still, it's traditional - the rules for Emperor titans were promised not long after Adeptus Titanicus was released in 1998. They finally appeared as Titan Legions, six years and an edition later. Still waiting for the rules for psy-titans promised at the same time. Now that both Codex Tau and Codex Adeptus Mechanicus are out, somone might decide that they can fit the conflict into the new Imperium Nihilus story.
Well, on the plus side, retooling the background for 8th as well means I can stop waiting for it, because the background for 8th is guff and I rarely play full-blown 40K these days.
I don't get why they don't just put the admech rules in with the upcoming custodes book, as they look like they were left out of the imperium imperial armour index due to imminent release.
In honesty I'd love to buy some fw admech but I don't play 30k and until I know the book is coming and which units have rules, they won't get money from me.
changemod wrote: I don’t think there’s a single person on the planet who wants Cyraxus for it’s lore.
Speak for yourself.
The primary purpose of the book is to get the 30k mechanicus stuff into 40k: If the lore is delaying that even further, then it’s just in the way.
Yes yes, very clever you would like to read that lore, but I’m pretty sure you knew exactly what I meant. The customers who are hurting from this aren’t the ones who’d like to read an admech vs tau story, they’re the ones who’ve been waiting bordering on three years on the promise of rules content.
changemod wrote: I don’t think there’s a single person on the planet who wants Cyraxus for it’s lore.
Speak for yourself.
Exactly. I bought all the Imperial Armour books for the "lore". I did end up using the Elysian rules, but that was after I'd bought the book, looked at the pictures and read the background.
changemod wrote: The primary purpose of the book is to get the 30k mechanicus stuff into 40k: If the lore is delaying that even further, then it’s just in the way.
Yes yes, very clever you would like to read that lore, but I’m pretty sure you knew exactly what I meant. The customers who are hurting from this aren’t the ones who’d like to read an admech vs tau story, they’re the ones who’ve been waiting bordering on three years on the promise of rules content.
Clever? Hardly. The primary purpose of the book is to provide a complete campaign, backstory and army list package as all Forgeworld Imperial Armour books have been, barring the 8th indexes. I like that package. It's a ball ache that I have to wait for it, but there we are.
Honestly though, the "rewrite the whole thing to fit it with 8th Ed lore" sounds like a cop out. There's plenty of previous FW campaigns that were historical, why should Fires suddenly be so special it HAS to take place contemporarily. Give us the stuff that was already written, place it just before the Galaxy gets a new space hole, now all you needed to do was rework the rules section.
I want to play through the damned campaign and the longer it takes to release, the more that desire diminishes.
Yes, it has to be re-written to fit into 8th story and rules. It isn't being worked on at all right now. This is coming from the writer.
Jesus on a pogo stick, they've had an year to rewrite it! Considering how gak FW rules quality generally, is, it really cannot take that long to do it.
So the writer was on the stream. He said they had it done for 7th edition, and then 8th dropped. The writer is also the manager of the Specialist Games section, so... given that FW is insanely understaffed, FoC is just a pipe dream at this point in time.
They don't have the staff to do half of the work they want to. That was the main thrust of the entire stream.
That’s nearly verbatim for what I confirmed earlier in the thread, glad it’s been officially confirmed so people know I wasn’t talking crap
*Heresy is not dead and most certainly stay 7th, because they think that it's more balanced for Heresy, and having many different gaming systems is a great thing.
changemod wrote: The primary purpose of the book is to get the 30k mechanicus stuff into 40k: If the lore is delaying that even further, then it’s just in the way.
Yes yes, very clever you would like to read that lore, but I’m pretty sure you knew exactly what I meant. The customers who are hurting from this aren’t the ones who’d like to read an admech vs tau story, they’re the ones who’ve been waiting bordering on three years on the promise of rules content.
Clever? Hardly. The primary purpose of the book is to provide a complete campaign, backstory and army list package as all Forgeworld Imperial Armour books have been, barring the 8th indexes. I like that package. It's a ball ache that I have to wait for it, but there we are.
There's a definitely a group of people who like historical type campaign books filled with background, maps, army/squad insignia. I would venture that there are more people who want to have rules for their existing models or want to buy models and use them in games. I think it would behoove FW financially to cater to that second group and release at least an index of mechanicum units for 40k use.
Well, on a more important note for me, they finally got back to me on the more serious issue of 'Where in the gold plated hell of the Emperor's underware drawer are my ordered miniatures?'
Seems that "The demand for those products was a lot larger then we first expected, for this reason our staff in the warehouse is working as efficient as possible to fulfill all orders in time and I must apologize for the caused inconvenience and delay. "
Mind you, 'In Time' passed today with no sign of my order being shipped inside of 35 working days.
And all those different ways of writing the same Moral Wound rules. Don't forget those!
Anyway, no Fires? That's a shame. Waited a long time for a FW Mechanicus book... and thus we wait longer.
The possibility of plastic Mk.II is nice. I've always liked that style.
The Daemon Primarch thing is perplexing though. Why would I ever want a giant spindly Daemon Primarch model in resin when there's a plastic one. Can anyone imagine putting Mortarion together with superglue, and with FW's... uhh... let's say casual relationship with QA?
For the ones that GW is unlikely to do (Lorgar, Peturabo) ok fine, but Angron? Fulgrim? You'd think we'd be getting them in plastic eventually. Do you want a big plastic snake or a big resin snake?
On the contrary, I will invest more and get rid of 40k stuff, since now I know it's definitely going to stay 7th
I would also love myself a resin snek Fulgrim. The way GWs machines places parts of sprues is just horrible. In other words, I would rather pay x2 the price for a resin piston/snek body than have to glue it from two parts.
Platuan4th wrote: Honestly though, the "rewrite the whole thing to fit it with 8th Ed lore" sounds like a cop out. There's plenty of previous FW campaigns that were historical, why should Fires suddenly be so special it HAS to take place contemporarily. Give us the stuff that was already written, place it just before the Galaxy gets a new space hole, now all you needed to do was rework the rules section.
I want to play through the damned campaign and the longer it takes to release, the more that desire diminishes.
Well, making it in the modern times is an Opportunity which can include exciting newer modern elements like Primaris marines etc. I think there is just more potential for people to be interested in the book if it is modern 40k.
Now, probably it would be easy to have more people interested in a book that Actually Exists than for one that won't come out for 1-5 years.
Platuan4th wrote: Honestly though, the "rewrite the whole thing to fit it with 8th Ed lore" sounds like a cop out. There's plenty of previous FW campaigns that were historical, why should Fires suddenly be so special it HAS to take place contemporarily. Give us the stuff that was already written, place it just before the Galaxy gets a new space hole, now all you needed to do was rework the rules section.
I want to play through the damned campaign and the longer it takes to release, the more that desire diminishes.
Well, making it in the modern times is an Opportunity which can include exciting newer modern elements like Primaris marines etc. I think there is just more potential for people to be interested in the book if it is modern 40k.
The two most popular sets of FW books to date are the Heresy and Badab War, both explicitly "historical" settings. Fires needs to be in the advanced timeline to get people interested exactly as much as 40K needed the timeline to advance in the first place, ie, not at all.
FW have a grand total of one Primaris-related model, and rewriting the whole background of the book just to include that and so they can chuck in some references to Bigger Marines and Big Pappy Smurf is a joke.
I disagree. The Horus Heresy and Badab were Big Important Historical Events that had fluff going way back. Fires of Cyraxus has no sort of background precedent to make people automatically be interested in it already.
stormboy wrote: I know I am probably in the minority, but I am disappointed that HH is staying with 7th.
As am i. I love things like the move stats, hit modifiers, strategems, save modifiers, and multiple damage on weapons.
Agreed, and I think 8th is better suited for larger scale games that naturally fit HH. But it is what it is. They struggle to get the black books out once a year, and FoC is firmly stuck in development hell. A full port to 8th isn’t something they want to take on. In the meantime, check out the 8th ed HH fan project. They’ve done some nice work with it.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I think the main thing that the Horus Heresy could use is the rend system. It's amazing how less useless certain weapons become under that.
Its just the old pre-8th edition AP system is a worse design. It promotes weapons that have AP2 in both close combat and shooting. I would love to see a normal minuses to penetration for all weapons how its done in 8th or how it was done in the old 2nd edition.
For example i have made a unit of 10 Termies armed with 2 lightning claws and i would love to use them against most targets. As it is now they have AP3 in Horus Heresy making this armament for such a unit practically useless (especially other Termies). However in 8th its a good viable option.
8th is better in every way except for vehicle facings and templates, those are mostly a matter of taste but fit very well in Heresy with it's abundance of vehicles. Would be trivial to add them to the 8th rule set though, so I hope that's what they'll do when they finish the books and finally switch over. Maybe then there will be at least some hope of getting someone to play Heresy in my group.
Mymearan wrote: 8th is better in every way except for vehicle facings and templates, those are mostly a matter of taste but fit very well in Heresy with it's abundance of vehicles. Would be trivial to add them to the 8th rule set though, so I hope that's what they'll do when they finish the books and finally switch over. Maybe then there will be at least some hope of getting someone to play Heresy in my group.
And except logical rules and balance.
Hopefully they never switch over. I want my HH games remain a) logical b) balanced. 8th ed switch would require complete rewrite from scratch to accomplish that for HH.
H.B.M.C. wrote: And all those different ways of writing the same Moral Wound rules. Don't forget those!
Anyway, no Fires? That's a shame. Waited a long time for a FW Mechanicus book... and thus we wait longer.
The possibility of plastic Mk.II is nice. I've always liked that style.
The Daemon Primarch thing is perplexing though. Why would I ever want a giant spindly Daemon Primarch model in resin when there's a plastic one. Can anyone imagine putting Mortarion together with superglue, and with FW's... uhh... let's say casual relationship with QA?
For the ones that GW is unlikely to do (Lorgar, Peturabo) ok fine, but Angron? Fulgrim? You'd think we'd be getting them in plastic eventually. Do you want a big plastic snake or a big resin snake?
Even daemons change in time. I don't think Forge World will be making a resin daemon Magnus or Mortarion that's just like the plastic ones. Nothing wrong with getting Rogal Dorn at the siege of the Imperial Palace - looking more weatherbeaten and battleworn than the current model, or a newly-ascended Mortarion.
Them saying that Horus Heresy will remain in 7th "for the foreseeable future" was the best part of the stream for me. I don't mind 40k 8th edition, but 7th just fits so well for HH. I love it, and don't want it to change.
alleus wrote: Them saying that Horus Heresy will remain in 7th "for the foreseeable future" was the best part of the stream for me. I don't mind 40k 8th edition, but 7th just fits so well for HH. I love it, and don't want it to change.
It's not ideal. They should at least adopt some of the 8th rules, such as the Save Modifier. For example, Artificer Armour tanking is teeth grindingly annoying. As a poster mentioned above, it'll make a lot more weapons more attractive than they currently are
Another disappointing week - sick of LotR - are FW planning to ever release the final blood bowl goblin team positionals? Been over a year (and several other teams) since the rest of the team launched - such a frustrating means of release. >.< Heck, it's been a month since Necromunda's Gang War 3 launched -
where are ANY of the new goodies offered in it (Ambots, gang pets, etc...). The compnay needs a better system for arraning its releases.
I’d like Vehicles to move to Toughness values (on each facing) and saves, rather than AV, because having two separate systems to resolve the same question (does this damage that?) is silly and redundant.
Would be neat if they went for the same strength scaling as 8e, or at least extended/reworked the S/T table to account for up to S15 or 20 and just had D weapons be really high strength.
Personally, I won’t be focusing on HH at all while it stays at 7th edition, with the random changes made a while back.
It’s not that I don’t like the game, or the models etc, it’s just that 8th ed is still changing and being faq’d a lot. There is a new AoS edition and ruleset coming out, and HH feels so far behind the curve in regards to problem solving that, I just, currently, don’t want to spend the time having to go back and re-adjust to 7th, while keeping up to date with 8th, and learning more about AoS 2nd ed.
Then you have Necromunda, Shadespire, Bloodbowl. It’s no wonder that people make rules mistakes so frequently (myself included) when there are so many rules for so many games set in the same/similar setting, sometimes even using the same models. And that is before you take into account all the inconsistencies, lack of clarification and poor rules writing that don’t seem to ever get addressed.
Sure, book 8 will be interesting to see – but, it’s already dropped DA and Nightlords to book 9, and I’m pretty confident in saying that it’ll either be similar to book 7, in that it’ll be full of insanely unbalancing things, or it’ll return to the others and simply be pretty lame in comparison. I’m personally expecting it to be similar to book 7, when compared to books 1-6, as codex creep is the only way of long term game design GW seems to follow.
The problem, also is, by the time all the Legions, all the Primarchs and all the units have rules and models, the current generation of HH players will be a decade older, and the chances of new players entering the game – instead of picking up 40k or AoS, in that time is pretty slim. This is simply down to how I expect 40k and AoS to develop over the same time period.
I’m also pretty disappointed in how far behind they seem to be in regards to everything. Yes, not having the staff dedicated to 1 thing, doesn’t help, but, it just hurts the development of their products for the main games. They must be seeing something I’m not, but, currently, things just don’t feel “right” from their business focus.
I agree Kdash. I guess I could probably play 7th without too much grinding of teeth, but I also play 8th, AoS, Necromunda, etc and there's just no way I'm re-learning an old (and bad) rule set to add to the confusion.
While I can agree that save modifiers could be good, that's about it. The rest of 8th is way too simplified and boring for me. It works well for 40k since there are so many races and other things keeping the game exciting, but for Horus Heresy where you see marines facing marines with the occasional deviant (such as myself, Ave Omnessiah!) I feel that I need a more complex ruleset to really keep myself invested and interested during a game.
And I REALLY hope they keep away from the whole command point and stratagem thing. More special rules and tactics are fine, but to lock them behind command points that some armies get way more of is not a good system in my opinion.
stormboy wrote: I know I am probably in the minority, but I am disappointed that HH is staying with 7th.
As am i. I love things like the move stats, hit modifiers, strategems, save modifiers, and multiple damage on weapons.
Im glad its staying, I like my cover rules, vehicle arcs, weapon variation, variation in general, complexity, tactics, movement that matters.
Great thing is due to the awesome 30k conversion project going on you get what you want, HH armies in 40k, and I get to keep my HH game the way I like it too, everyone wins
Platuan4th wrote: Honestly though, the "rewrite the whole thing to fit it with 8th Ed lore" sounds like a cop out. There's plenty of previous FW campaigns that were historical, why should Fires suddenly be so special it HAS to take place contemporarily. Give us the stuff that was already written, place it just before the Galaxy gets a new space hole, now all you needed to do was rework the rules section.
I want to play through the damned campaign and the longer it takes to release, the more that desire diminishes.
Well, making it in the modern times is an Opportunity which can include exciting newer modern elements like Primaris marines etc. I think there is just more potential for people to be interested in the book if it is modern 40k.
The two most popular sets of FW books to date are the Heresy and Badab War, both explicitly "historical" settings. Fires needs to be in the advanced timeline to get people interested exactly as much as 40K needed the timeline to advance in the first place, ie, not at all.
FW have a grand total of one Primaris-related model, and rewriting the whole background of the book just to include that and so they can chuck in some references to Bigger Marines and Big Pappy Smurf is a joke.
Why would GW invest resources in a 40k product that's incompatible with their primary range? The primary purpose of the game, the background, the artwork, the rules, everything is to sell space marines, particularly primaris space marines.
I would expect all new releases to be set in the "modern" era and would not expect much ongoing support for products that aren't. Pure speculation, but I suspect this may be the reason behind the shrinking Horus Heresy range. If I'm trying to get players to switch over to the new primaris line, I don't know how happy I'd be with FW pushing 30k infantry and vehicles that are only compatible with the legacy range.
andysonic1 wrote: I wouldn't mind a 30k Daemon Angron with the Black Blade before it gets smashed on Armageddon:
I've been wondering if the Black Blade will be 'reforged' when the plastic version arrives, or if they will advance him to a new weapon set. I mean, daemons can't really 'die'...so can an uber-daemon weapon?
At any rate, I'm sure part of FW's interest in their own resin daemon primarchs has to do with primarchs selling well, including to collectors who don't play. There's lots and lots of stuff in the HH line that doesn't have that kind of appeal. Still...it just seems redundant.
H.B.M.C. wrote: The Daemon Primarch thing is perplexing though. Why would I ever want a giant spindly Daemon Primarch model in resin when there's a plastic one. Can anyone imagine putting Mortarion together with superglue, and with FW's... uhh... let's say casual relationship with QA?
If FW's Khorne Daemon Prince model is a preview...yikes. That model is infuriating, what with having to glue on so many tiny individual spikes.
EDIT: And let's be realistic here. At the rate at which FW works, we may quite literally be talking about a release date around 2024 for resin daemon primarchs. And when something is that far out, will it even happen? Which is one of the issues facing HH overall, IMO.
Platuan4th wrote: Honestly though, the "rewrite the whole thing to fit it with 8th Ed lore" sounds like a cop out. There's plenty of previous FW campaigns that were historical, why should Fires suddenly be so special it HAS to take place contemporarily. Give us the stuff that was already written, place it just before the Galaxy gets a new space hole, now all you needed to do was rework the rules section.
I want to play through the damned campaign and the longer it takes to release, the more that desire diminishes.
Well, making it in the modern times is an Opportunity which can include exciting newer modern elements like Primaris marines etc. I think there is just more potential for people to be interested in the book if it is modern 40k.
The two most popular sets of FW books to date are the Heresy and Badab War, both explicitly "historical" settings. Fires needs to be in the advanced timeline to get people interested exactly as much as 40K needed the timeline to advance in the first place, ie, not at all.
FW have a grand total of one Primaris-related model, and rewriting the whole background of the book just to include that and so they can chuck in some references to Bigger Marines and Big Pappy Smurf is a joke.
Why would GW invest resources in a 40k product that's incompatible with their primary range? The primary purpose of the game, the background, the artwork, the rules, everything is to sell space marines, particularly primaris space marines.
I would expect all new releases to be set in the "modern" era and would not expect much ongoing support for products that aren't. Pure speculation, but I suspect this may be the reason behind the shrinking Horus Heresy range. If I'm trying to get players to switch over to the new primaris line, I don't know how happy I'd be with FW pushing 30k infantry and vehicles that are only compatible with the legacy range.
What on earth are you on about? We're talking about an Imperial Armour book for 8th Edition 40K, and whether or not the background material in the book needed to be updated to the post-Rowboat setting or not to be appealing. As far as I know, leaving the background material as it was - apparently already fully written - doesn't somehow prevent you using the rules.
And the primary purpose of this product was to flesh out the sodding AdMech in 40K. It was finished, and while everyone grasps that they had to update the rules even if they don't care for 8th, the fact it's now apparently being even further delayed to change the background material for no worthwhile reason given FW sell one Primaris-related kit and it's a HUEG superheavy that only a handful of people will ever buy.
Also, the whole point of Forgeworld was supposed to be doing the things the main studio couldn't or wouldn't, expanding support with models that wouldn't be financially viable in plastic, and in so doing retaining customers within the GW ecosystem that would otherwise have gone to competitors or other hobbies with their cash - if they're just going to be used as another vector for shilling Primaris and neoPrimarchs, what's the point?
The only problem I have with HH staying in 7th is that they had the opportunity to fix a lot of the problems inherent to 7th and to incorporate the best rules from previous editions...but they didn't. Sure, we still have the better/balanced army lists, but they're still played on a broken system.
The Cyraxis situation is just absurd. I bought some Mechnanicum models when it was first announced (thankfully not many), I don't remember how long ago that was, seems like an eternity. They cranked indexes for most of their models in record time when 8th arrived. Sure, the quality was not great, but bad rules is better than no rules. And lets not forget that there are FWAD Mech units (the Secutarii and the Ordinatus) which had 40K rules in the previous edition but do not have them any more. It is completely inexcusable to sell people these expensive models and then remove the rules support. They did the same with some of their Fantasy models when AOS hit, the Demigryph general and the Landship never got AOS rules. I will never buy a FW model that is not a direct proxy of a model existing in the main rules.
Mymearan wrote: 8th is better in every way except for vehicle facings and templates, those are mostly a matter of taste but fit very well in Heresy with it's abundance of vehicles. Would be trivial to add them to the 8th rule set though, so I hope that's what they'll do when they finish the books and finally switch over. Maybe then there will be at least some hope of getting someone to play Heresy in my group.
And except logical rules and balance.
Hopefully they never switch over. I want my HH games remain a) logical b) balanced. 8th ed switch would require complete rewrite from scratch to accomplish that for HH.
I'd love to see your definition of logical and balanced. Probably a lot different from everyone else's.
And the primary purpose of this product was to flesh out the sodding AdMech in 40K. It was finished, and while everyone grasps that they had to update the rules even if they don't care for 8th, the fact it's now apparently being even further delayed to change the background material for no worthwhile reason given FW sell one Primaris-related kit and it's a HUEG superheavy that only a handful of people will ever buy.
That's the primary reason many people want the book, but the primary purpose of the Imperial Armour books has never been the rules. They're there to support the story and models.
Which is also why they're talking about alternative versions of the Primarchs (be that daemons, or simply the same character later in the Heresy. All the ones we have now are basically presented as they were at the outbreak of the war); because that's where the Heresy story is going, so they want the models to reflect that.
The rules are the primary tool for encouraging sales of the models beyond the mere fact of the models themselves existing. Without those, the model is a display piece.
Forge World was set up to make display pieces. The fact remains, the books are written to tell a story, with the rules then provided in support of that. They're not written to primarily provide stat lines with the fluff there to fill up the blank areas with pretty pictures.
In the case of Fires of Cyraxus, Andy wrote it to tell a particular story. The setting has now changed so the story doesn't fit, so it's been pushed back until it can be revised to suit. However, 40k sourcebooks aren't apparently a priority for Forge World.
As well as these from Warhammer Community. Clearer than the screen grabs. Open Day release maybe?
Malevolence is the eighth Horus Heresy book, set during the investigation of the Signus System and the shadow campaign in the Chondax System. Signus is one of the most important war zones of the Horus Heresy, seeing Daemons unleashed en-masse and Sanguinius’ fateful duel with the Bloodthirster Ka’Bandha. This book will provide both a new perspective on some iconic lore, as well as an exploration of the hidden histories of this dark chapter for the Imperium.
Inside, you’ll find rules for new Legion units, an army list for Daemons of the Ruinstorm, campaigns set on Signus Prime and the events surrounding what occurred in the Chondax System. As well as looking at the Blood Angels and White Scars, this book will also include additional content for the Alpha Legion and Space Wolves.
I'd love to see your definition of logical and balanced. Probably a lot different from everyone else's.
Oh come on, a bike rider protecting a bunch of infantry by dodging bullets aimed at them is perfectly logical!
Ah yes, the dumb illogical 7th edition. Good thing we now have baneblades able to shoot all of their guns out of a tiny bit of track sticking out of a shotblocker. Or guardsmen surviving their valkyrie crashing full speed into the ground on 2+.
Seems like HH is the only option left for people that are unhappy with the current state of 40k. Oh well, having much less variety due to setting constraints is not something I'm too happy about, but I'll take this over the dumpster fire of 8th edition any day of the week.
I'd love to see your definition of logical and balanced. Probably a lot different from everyone else's.
Oh come on, a bike rider protecting a bunch of infantry by dodging bullets aimed at them is perfectly logical!
Ah yes, the dumb illogical 7th edition. Good thing we now have baneblades able to shoot all of their guns out of a tiny bit of track sticking out of a shotblocker. Or guardsmen surviving their valkyrie crashing full speed into the ground on 2+.
Seems like HH is the only option left for people that are unhappy with the current state of 40k. Oh well, having much less variety due to setting constraints is not something I'm too happy about, but I'll take this over the dumpster fire of 8th edition any day of the week.
As illogical as an EW character tanking 3 Lascannons because? Or Lightning Claws ignoring everything up to Terminator armor and then it just kinda flings off?
Let's not use the illogical argument please. Both systems have their own amount of it.
Mymearan wrote: 8th is better in every way except for vehicle facings and templates, those are mostly a matter of taste but fit very well in Heresy with it's abundance of vehicles. Would be trivial to add them to the 8th rule set though, so I hope that's what they'll do when they finish the books and finally switch over. Maybe then there will be at least some hope of getting someone to play Heresy in my group.
And except logical rules and balance.
Hopefully they never switch over. I want my HH games remain a) logical b) balanced. 8th ed switch would require complete rewrite from scratch to accomplish that for HH.
I LOL at the notion of 7th edition being balanced in any sense of the word. Are those Lascannons actually being used as AT again instead of literally anything else? Gimme a break.
Liberal_Perturabo wrote: Ah yes, the dumb illogical 7th edition. Good thing we now have baneblades able to shoot all of their guns out of a tiny bit of track sticking out of a shotblocker. Or guardsmen surviving their valkyrie crashing full speed into the ground on 2+.
You'd maybe have a point, Einstein, if literally every frakking model other than vehicles didn't do the exact same thing in 7th. Where are gun facings on infantry? Primarchs? Monstrous creatures? Gee, guess what, every turn in the game is abstract representation of a few minutes of combat on a battlefield and there is plenty of time for a tank to dive out, fire, and go back to previous position. The fact that it's so colossally difficult to grasp to some (even despite they accept all other their models do so, where is whining about SM firing out of his butt?) is just sad, really. All the gun facings added was stupid minutiae and opportunity for TFGs to declare your gun (with exceptionally ill defined allowed facings) is 0.4 degrees out of position, so it can't fire. See comically stupid debacle in last two editions about Knights being not allowed to fire their guns directly in front of them - if that is logic to you, then bravo.
Ditto for armor facings, most of the time they made no sense (see exposed engine on Land Raider being propa 'ard, unlike fronts of tanks like Predator or HH) and the fact the facing you being allowed to fire on was defined on badly defined, invisible diagonal line (which meant the exact same model half inch to the right had vastly easier shot, or that you were forced to fire on the front of the tank despite it being totally obscured, not at the exposed, weak side your model saw perfectly well) - if that is logic to you, it's the same kind Riddler or Joker would use.
Your last point is especially laughable and comical, because not only the 7th ed Valkyrie shown dumber things (like ramming full speed into the ground to gently push a few guys around, before becoming airborne again, or being able to throw the troopers without parachutes out of its hatches, no harm done), you had stuff like SM pulling brand new plasma guns out of their behind as soon as one they held exploded, guy in power armour with a bit of gilding glued on laughing at stuff penetrating all other PA models like wearer was naked, while also somehow magically intercepting fire meant for whole squad with his chest, drop pods magically making split second course changes to avoid touching enemy, blasts from guns that supposedly level whole buildings only ever deal a slight scratch to you if you eat some steroids and harden your six-pack in gym (aka T5 meaning having EW vs 98% of the guns in game, T6 being plain immune to death even from titan sized gun opening salvo), everyone punching like mewling kitten being unable to defeat even 6+ save, even dreadnoughts (if lacking CCW) unless you again packed a bit of muscle in the gym, then your punches somehow mutate into plasma pistols as soon as you get that coveted MC status. Etc, etc. Logic!
I'd love to see your definition of logical and balanced. Probably a lot different from everyone else's.
Oh come on, a bike rider protecting a bunch of infantry by dodging bullets aimed at them is perfectly logical!
Ah yes, the dumb illogical 7th edition. Good thing we now have baneblades able to shoot all of their guns out of a tiny bit of track sticking out of a shotblocker. Or guardsmen surviving their valkyrie crashing full speed into the ground on 2+.
Seems like HH is the only option left for people that are unhappy with the current state of 40k. Oh well, having much less variety due to setting constraints is not something I'm too happy about, but I'll take this over the dumpster fire of 8th edition any day of the week.
As illogical as an EW character tanking 3 Lascannons because? Or Lightning Claws ignoring everything up to Terminator armor and then it just kinda flings off?
Let's not use the illogical argument please. Both systems have their own amount of it.
Mymearan wrote: 8th is better in every way except for vehicle facings and templates, those are mostly a matter of taste but fit very well in Heresy with it's abundance of vehicles. Would be trivial to add them to the 8th rule set though, so I hope that's what they'll do when they finish the books and finally switch over. Maybe then there will be at least some hope of getting someone to play Heresy in my group.
And except logical rules and balance.
Hopefully they never switch over. I want my HH games remain a) logical b) balanced. 8th ed switch would require complete rewrite from scratch to accomplish that for HH.
I LOL at the notion of 7th edition being balanced in any sense of the word. Are those Lascannons actually being used as AT again instead of literally anything else? Gimme a break.
I LOL at the notion of 8th edition being balanced in any sense of the word. Is anything other than Plasma being used for literally anything? Gimme a break. Also Cough"Jetbikes"cough Cough"Unkillable Characters"cough If you think 8th is balanced then I think HH would probably be to difficult for you and you might want to give it a miss anyway.
Look I know some people like to shove big blobs of models around while rolling buckets of dice and going pew pew without having to worry about tactics or thinking too much and that's what we used to have AoS for, sadly we now have the dumpster fire that is 8th as well so I am happy that there is still an actual wargame produced by a faction of GW.
Liberal_Perturabo wrote: Ah yes, the dumb illogical 7th edition. Good thing we now have baneblades able to shoot all of their guns out of a tiny bit of track sticking out of a shotblocker. Or guardsmen surviving their valkyrie crashing full speed into the ground on 2+.
You'd maybe have a point, Einstein, if literally every frakking model other than vehicles didn't do the exact same thing in 7th. Where are gun facings on infantry? Primarchs? Monstrous creatures? Gee, guess what, every turn in the game is abstract representation of a few minutes of combat on a battlefield and there is plenty of time for a tank to dive out, fire, and go back to previous position. The fact that it's so colossally difficult to grasp to some (even despite they accept all other their models do so, where is whining about SM firing out of his butt?) is just sad, really. All the gun facings added was stupid minutiae and opportunity for TFGs to declare your gun (with exceptionally ill defined allowed facings) is 0.4 degrees out of position, so it can't fire. See comically stupid debacle in last two editions about Knights being not allowed to fire their guns directly in front of them - if that is logic to you, then bravo.
Ditto for armor facings, most of the time they made no sense (see exposed engine on Land Raider being propa 'ard, unlike fronts of tanks like Predator or HH) and the fact the facing you being allowed to fire on was defined on badly defined, invisible diagonal line (which meant the exact same model half inch to the right had vastly easier shot, or that you were forced to fire on the front of the tank despite it being totally obscured, not at the exposed, weak side your model saw perfectly well) - if that is logic to you, it's the same kind Riddler or Joker would use.
Your last point is especially laughable and comical, because not only the 7th ed Valkyrie shown dumber things (like ramming full speed into the ground to gently push a few guys around, before becoming airborne again, or being able to throw the troopers without parachutes out of its hatches, no harm done), you had stuff like SM pulling brand new plasma guns out of their behind as soon as one they held exploded, guy in power armour with a bit of gilding glued on laughing at stuff penetrating all other PA models like wearer was naked, while also somehow magically intercepting fire meant for whole squad with his chest, drop pods magically making split second course changes to avoid touching enemy, blasts from guns that supposedly level whole buildings only ever deal a slight scratch to you if you eat some steroids and harden your six-pack in gym (aka T5 meaning having EW vs 98% of the guns in game, T6 being plain immune to death even from titan sized gun opening salvo), everyone punching like mewling kitten being unable to defeat even 6+ save, even dreadnoughts (if lacking CCW) unless you again packed a bit of muscle in the gym, then your punches somehow mutate into plasma pistols as soon as you get that coveted MC status. Etc, etc. Logic!
Wow you I am not even going to reply to just quote so when you stop frothing and figure out how badly you little rant just embarrassed yourself you cannot delete it.
Ok 1 thing because it's just that dumb, you do know that the reason infantry did not have firing arcs was because people/aliens/creatures can you know turn pretty quick you can even try it stand up and turn round, see how easy that was. Damn no wonder they had to simplify 8th so much.
I would respond to the rest but I don't want to overwhelm you and rule 1.
Either way, another impractical thing that should only see the table at 6mm-8mm scale!
Speak for yourself, I'm hoping we get enough of these "impractical" items to have a decent spread and play upscaled games of Epic. Kind of like Travel 40K in reverse.
Oh god it's beautiful. Everything the pathetic 30k version wishes it could be. Now if only FW would acknowledge the rightful owners of the best combat engineers in 40k and give it to the DKoK as well.
The stuff there has been on sale for ages - the most recent bits are the Astral Claws bits and Commander Culln from the Badab War books. That's from, what, 5th edition?
They're probably busy working on casting stuff for all the OOP kits people ordered at the last minute. I'd expect more weeks like this, now that FW have figured out that you get more weekly sales by putting stuff on last chance to buy than by making new kits. Why put out new releases when you still have kits left to discontinue?
FW is clearly restructuring itself and pushing to become more mainstream in GW product lines. They've added a Sigmar segment to their development team and others for the smaller games as well. In short I think FW is simply cutting product lines that have sold in small quantities overall and is likely going to strip out some more before expanding what they offer.
AndrewGPaul wrote: The stuff there has been on sale for ages - the most recent bits are the Astral Claws bits and Commander Culln from the Badab War books. That's from, what, 5th edition?
That Commander Culln model comes from Imperial Armour 4: Anphelion Project.
The Vanguard Veteran kits come from Siege of Vraks.
Valthex and Astral Claws are the only stuff from Badab War I can readily think of as I'm just waking up. Everything else is earlier.
It really is ridiculous - so much blood bowl and Necromunda stuff shown and in the queue, but then stupidly excessive amounts of sweet hee-haw actually being put up for sale! It really is incredibly frustrating - they need a much better way of signalling and fulfilling a coherent release pattern - even just following the main studios model.
The removal of Red Scorpions stuff is concerning. They're FW's special marine chapter. They're featured in the FoC artwork we've seen, and the new marine superheavy was painted in their colors.
Tannhauser42 wrote: The removal of Red Scorpions stuff is concerning. They're FW's special marine chapter. They're featured in the FoC artwork we've seen, and the new marine superheavy was painted in their colors.
I imagine that FoC is dead. I doubt they will ever pick that book back up.
Red Scorpions will now have only Characters and shoulder pads. No specific bodies for regular marines (assault, veterans, standard marines). But they have the super Culn Leviathan and the command squad and the 2 special characters.
Babdad war stuff is going away. Red Scorpions are being minimized. I am wondering when Orks will lose their stuff from FW? I should probably make sure I have the last couple Ork things I want before they disappear.
Given that having a flat S3 instead of “S user” would be weird, I’m banking on the community version.
Eh, i could have sworn 100% that when i looked earlier, it did not have the "+" there. In fact i am certain it wasn't! Hopefully it is +3, otherwise it'd just be meh
Yeah, it looks like they have updated the document editing really is a problem for GW
Tannhauser42 wrote: The removal of Red Scorpions stuff is concerning. They're FW's special marine chapter. They're featured in the FoC artwork we've seen, and the new marine superheavy was painted in their colors.
I'm not seeing anything relatively recent in the Red Scorpions list. No Sevrin Loth, Culln the Risen, or Regents of the Ordon Rift.
It's all stuff from Vraks or before in terms of resin.
Tannhauser42 wrote: The removal of Red Scorpions stuff is concerning. They're FW's special marine chapter. They're featured in the FoC artwork we've seen, and the new marine superheavy was painted in their colors.
One assumes we're seeing the removal of the non Primaris marine stuff to make way for Fw primaris marine stuff as/when ?
Tannhauser42 wrote: The removal of Red Scorpions stuff is concerning. They're FW's special marine chapter. They're featured in the FoC artwork we've seen, and the new marine superheavy was painted in their colors.
I imagine that FoC is dead. I doubt they will ever pick that book back up.
Which is nuts because their books exist, in the end, to sell models. Given that, what book would a sane manager push out first?
A) one overdue for nearly four years, with rules for 3 complete ranges (AM, RS, Tau) you already have in production and can sell immediately;
B) one overdue for a year, that will push your sales at best a little, given daemons, Calth, and Prospero boxes are plastics from GW, BA have six different sets of plastic upgrade pads and tons of parts in plastic, too, leaving you with some BA leftovers and at best White Scar sales... oh, wait, we just squatted those so there is no point of doing so anyway;
C) one utterly insane vanity project no one asked for, that duplicates existing GW plastic range, so 95% of people will just convert plastic Custodes and SoS and call it a day, resulting in zero sales;
Given FW went with C, then B, then A, it's clear as a day GW does not, in fact, tell them what to do as any even remotely sane sales manager would tell them to cut the and publish FoCyesterday, instead of sitting on finished book* for years because the FW is too lazy to convert a few rules to 8th and start selling stuff like hotcakes, instead preferring to squat it. Just look at mechanicus rules, it took outrage due to FWFoC stupidity on facebook page for GW to finally tell them to get their arses in gear and write something instead of waiting for it to also go LCTB...
*and yes, I am aware of stupid excuse "we need to update fluff" but it makes no sense, first, no other IA book mentioned anything about goings in the other parts of the Imperium, so you could get away with just adding a few token sentences if you really have to, if not going for obvious solution and stating the book is set in M41, problem solved.
I feel like FW is dying... and the HH too. Book series almost entirely stalled out, tons of models going oop, not much new coming out, and what does is under the GW banner it seems more than anything (Necromunda). It just seems like they are quietly going out of business and just consolidating under the main GW brand.
I don't see that at all, but I think they are refocusing. If anything it might be that they are getting more pressure ot make non-marine stuff (something people have been calling for for ages).
Also do we know the sales volume of many of these upgrade items? There might be a lot being cut, but it could be that they just have not been selling.
So products that don't move all the time is what they do. Or used to.
They did ok keeping themselves going on yearly IA books with neat armies and gear for customizing.
Now they are removing the specialty section of their range. Standard Terminator shoulder pads? Standard torsos for their custom chapter (which was featured in the dead FoC)?
It feels like FW is streamlining... which I don't think is a great thing. FW always existed as a way to add diversity to the GW ranges. Now all of that diversity (outside of HH) is going away.
Now they are removing the specialty section of their range. Standard Terminator shoulder pads? Standard torsos for their custom chapter (which was featured in the dead FoC)?
Ehhh...Terminator Shoulder Pads is a bit iffy. When the Blood Angels and Black Templar ones came out, GW didn't produce any themselves. Now we have a dedicated Blood Angels Terminator kit and Black Templars still have their plastic upgrade sprue(which has Terminator pads on it).
Torsos for the Red Scorpions are the ones from Vraks just slightly retooled. They're old at this point.
Salamanders have their own Terminator variants, period, that can be built as standard Terminators if you so choose for 40k proper.
It feels like FW is streamlining... which I don't think is a great thing. FW always existed as a way to add diversity to the GW ranges. Now all of that diversity (outside of HH) is going away.
It really doesn't. They've always gotten rid of old stuff--it's just now we see in advance when it happens.
Now they are removing the specialty section of their range. Standard Terminator shoulder pads? Standard torsos for their custom chapter (which was featured in the dead FoC)?
Ehhh...Terminator Shoulder Pads is a bit iffy. When the Blood Angels and Black Templar ones came out, GW didn't produce any themselves. Now we have a dedicated Blood Angels Terminator kit and Black Templars still have their plastic upgrade sprue(which has Terminator pads on it).
Torsos for the Red Scorpions are the ones from Vraks just slightly retooled. They're old at this point.
Salamanders have their own Terminator variants, period, that can be built as standard Terminators if you so choose for 40k proper.
It feels like FW is streamlining... which I don't think is a great thing. FW always existed as a way to add diversity to the GW ranges. Now all of that diversity (outside of HH) is going away.
It really doesn't. They've always gotten rid of old stuff--it's just now we see in advance when it happens.
I would have agreed - except this isn't slowing reducing old stuff. This is a wholesale clearout. Over the past few months they have cleared out the old. This is more than just getting rid of old stuff.
ImAGeek wrote: A lot of people were asking for the Custodes book, actually.
Agreed, and I'm interested in it too. To be honest, I don't sense huge demand for FoC. I know it has some people desperately wanting it, but *everyone* playing 30K is interested in Malevolence. And the Custodes 'codex' is low-hanging fruit for FW...it'll be easier than writing FoC OR Malevolence AND a unique opportunity to fill out a popular but very limited GW range.
To be clear, though -- I hope folks get their FoC. But the FW calendar is practically geologic, so if something's not firmly on it...yikes.
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MajorTom11 wrote: I feel like FW is dying... and the HH too. Book series almost entirely stalled out, tons of models going oop, not much new coming out, and what does is under the GW banner it seems more than anything (Necromunda). It just seems like they are quietly going out of business and just consolidating under the main GW brand.
Well, on the interwebz you can also literally find people saying that 30K is stronger than ever and the future brighter than ever.
I think the truth is in the middle. All signs point to it being a diminished product, for the reasons you mention and many more. There are some strong communities out there, but many have also dried up. And it seems popular at events, but that's what happens when you can't find fellow players at a local level...you travel to events to get an opportunity to play.
I also wouldn't want to lay money on whether we'll ever see Book X. As I've said before, 30K is an *insane* product. Who releases their rules for a game in a yearly(-ish) series of $120, 300 page lavish coffee table books? When you take a step back, it's bonkers on multiple levels, including the person-hours invested. At a company like GW, that's going to be questioned. I could see them getting the Legions done and then putting the whole thing on long-term hiatus.
*STILL*, FW proceeding with Malevolence says that they're interested in having 30K stick around. They had every opportunity to drop it after AB's passing, if that's what they wanted. So I tend to think that it'll settle back in as a niche game for grognards, after having flirted with the prospect of becoming another 'core' game.
I feel that FW hit their high with the initial release of the HH and have almost been chasing that high ever since and couldn't go back to their business model from before of producing the niche products that didn't necessarily make them a bucket load of money . Just looking at some of the releases for the heresy like all the different variations of the Sicarian it seems as if they are just scared of taking risks.
Very sad I, have heard that these are likely to be the only Mechanicum rules 40k gets.
FoC has been taken out back and given the emperor's mercy, will only be seen if someone is bin diving in Nottingham.
The office politics continue and FW are losing ground, expect them to be only churning out AoS crap and specialist games within 18 months. Under the banner of GW specialist games as FW is quietly shuffled off under the stairs like a discarded mk7 marine.
How it is a WS4+ BS3+ 10W S12 T7 3+ model that can transport 12 models, with deepstrike, D3 Melta shoots, 2 storm bolters (Or two twi volkite chargers for 12 points more, totally worth it), that hits in meele with 6 A at S12, -4P, 3D ,that causes mortal wounds.... for 146 points... not worth it?! Especially in the faction with Electro-Priests.
The Peltists and Hoplites seem like a nice idea, but they just aren't worth the points (not a surprise from forgeworld.) And it seems silly for them to not get traits. If they were troops, got traits, and were ~2 points cheaper, then we'd be talking.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: The Peltists and Hoplites seem like a nice idea, but they just aren't worth the points (not a surprise from forgeworld.) And it seems silly for them to not get traits. If they were troops, got traits, and were ~2 points cheaper, then we'd be talking.
You want a guardsman with double firepower, carapace armour, an invulnerable and canticles, plus two alternate firing modes to cost less than 9ppm?
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: The Peltists and Hoplites seem like a nice idea, but they just aren't worth the points (not a surprise from forgeworld.) And it seems silly for them to not get traits. If they were troops, got traits, and were ~2 points cheaper, then we'd be talking.
You want a guardsman with double firepower, carapace armour, an invulnerable and canticles, plus two alternate firing modes to cost less than 9ppm?
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: The Peltists and Hoplites seem like a nice idea, but they just aren't worth the points (not a surprise from forgeworld.) And it seems silly for them to not get traits. If they were troops, got traits, and were ~2 points cheaper, then we'd be talking.
You want a guardsman with double firepower, carapace armour, an invulnerable and canticles, plus two alternate firing modes to cost less than 9ppm?
Thats where the "Always competitive, all the time" internet mentality has lead us. If it isn't stupidly broken it isn't worth it.
And the primary purpose of this product was to flesh out the sodding AdMech in 40K. It was finished, and while everyone grasps that they had to update the rules even if they don't care for 8th, the fact it's now apparently being even further delayed to change the background material for no worthwhile reason given FW sell one Primaris-related kit and it's a HUEG superheavy that only a handful of people will ever buy.
That's the primary reason many people want the book, but the primary purpose of the Imperial Armour books has never been the rules. They're there to support the story and models.
Which is also why they're talking about alternative versions of the Primarchs (be that daemons, or simply the same character later in the Heresy. All the ones we have now are basically presented as they were at the outbreak of the war); because that's where the Heresy story is going, so they want the models to reflect that.
Yes? So? And? Que?
It had a story, written, complete, one a lot of us were anticipating. Nobody's saying they should never, ever, ever produce content in the advanced timeline, just that there was no need at all to take a complete story in the pre-Primarchfest setting and rewrite it to cram in the newshiny "official" storyline(or rather, the newshiny "official" models, since for all your claims of story that's what this change is about; supporting Primaris sales for GW).
You go on to say the story "no longer fits", but that's been addressed - it fits fine, where it was in the timeline before. It doesn't need to take place in "the present" any more than Badab or Heresy or the other IA books did - some of them were, some of them weren't, people still bought them. This pathological need to keep everything "moving forward" that seems to have developed at GW and their subsidiaries in the last couple of years is something I really detest despite all the other positive changes they've been making - the whole point of a setting this broad is you don't have to keep telling the same ongoing soap opera storyline, you can branch out and dig deeper into "historical" events as well.
But no, gotta sell dem Bigmarines. Sure, it's all about the story
Overread wrote: FW is clearly restructuring itself and pushing to become more mainstream in GW product lines. They've added a Sigmar segment to their development team and others for the smaller games as well. In short I think FW is simply cutting product lines that have sold in small quantities overall and is likely going to strip out some more before expanding what they offer.
Which is a real shame, IMO. What made FW useful and appealing was their willingness to produce passion projects and sell items that would only ever do small quantities, just turning them into an adjunct for the main studio producing things that are only just non-viable enough to sell in plastic is a complete waste.
SeanDrake wrote: Very sad I, have heard that these are likely to be the only Mechanicum rules 40k gets.
FoC has been taken out back and given the emperor's mercy, will only be seen if someone is bin diving in Nottingham.
The office politics continue and FW are losing ground, expect them to be only churning out AoS crap and specialist games within 18 months. Under the banner of GW specialist games as FW is quietly shuffled off under the stairs like a discarded mk7 marine.
And what's truly, genuinely sad is now you see stuff like this and it can't just be dismissed out of hand.
I very much appreciate the hoplite and peltast and burrowing thing rules for AdMech. They don't seem very strong, but that might be asking for too much, and just having them at all is nice.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: The Peltists and Hoplites seem like a nice idea, but they just aren't worth the points (not a surprise from forgeworld.) And it seems silly for them to not get traits. If they were troops, got traits, and were ~2 points cheaper, then we'd be talking.
You want a guardsman with double firepower, carapace armour, an invulnerable and canticles, plus two alternate firing modes to cost less than 9ppm?
I want it to be worth fielding. Save me the hyperbole. Guardsmen have the same firepower for half the price with orders. Multiple weapon profiles are meaningless if they aren't useful. With the way AP rules work, the 4+ and 5++ are basically redundant. So if you are paying for both of them (which you are), then you're paying too much. 5+ at 4ppm is way more efficient than 4+ at 9pmm. Or even 7ppm. If we still used old AP rules, 4+ would be great. But its just not now.
Of course, the problem isn't really that these units cost too much, it's that guardsmen are so cheap and effective, and there's no real hard counters to hordes anymore except having your own mass firepower horde. If we were still in an edition where flamers were cheap, generated a bunch of hits, and ignored guard armor, then it would be worth paying double to have a unit that's armor isn't penned by a flamer. Then these would have some use. Or if we were back in 5th before Orders were added. But currently, Guardsmen set the standard by which every other unit must be compared. If an imperial unit is going to have a place on the board, it needs to have a use that makes it more attractive than just running more Infantry squads. Which means that, in some way, it needs to be better than guardsmen (even if worse in another. It's a tradeoff). Which means either more firepower, more durability, more command points, more scoring potential, etc.
So lets see:
Firepower? Guard have about the same amount for half the cost with orders. Also known as double the firepower.
Durability? Guard have far more once you adjust for point cost, despite the difference in saves.
Hard counters? Anything that counters guard counters this just as hard due to ap and save changes mentioned above.
Scoring? Guard are troops, these are not.
Command points? See previous.
Close combat? Guard are better with orders, and have access to various trait and character buffs.
Flexibility? Despite weapon profiles, guard are still better.
The only place that these stand out is that since you will have less squads, you opponent cannot get as many kill points off them. But that's not enough.
So, to summarize, yes, I want a guardsman with double firepower, carapace armour, an invulnerable and canticles, plus two alternate firing modes to cost less than 9ppm. Because it needs to cost less to be worth fielding. It should probably cost 6 in its current form, 7 if it got Traits, and Perhaps 8 if it was also a Troop.
EDIT: Another useful comparison point would be Dark Eldar Warriors, which are also BS 3, but are troops and 6ppm.
40k forums in a nutshell.
I know, right? It strange that there's such a huge pattern of people realizing that many units are statted so poorly that they are never worth using. The problem must be that those people are just petty whiners. The fact that there's so much of it its become a meme cannot be that GW can't write rules for #$%^.
Thats where the "Always competitive, all the time" internet mentality has lead us. If it isn't stupidly broken it isn't worth it.
There's a lot of space between 'not worth using' and 'stupidly broken.' Stupidly broken for this unit would be 5ppm. I'm not advocating that.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: The Peltists and Hoplites seem like a nice idea, but they just aren't worth the points (not a surprise from forgeworld.) And it seems silly for them to not get traits. If they were troops, got traits, and were ~2 points cheaper, then we'd be talking.
You want a guardsman with double firepower, carapace armour, an invulnerable and canticles, plus two alternate firing modes to cost less than 9ppm?
Thats where the "Always competitive, all the time" internet mentality has lead us. If it isn't stupidly broken it isn't worth it.
People want an even cheaper, more effective version of the 'battalion tax to give Knights an extra 5 cp' over 180 points of guardsmen.
But yeah, FW is getting their products split in two ways:
They're getting rid of stuff that doesn't sell as well...
And they're giving other models 40k rules.
I have a feeling that they're probably noticing that models that get 40k rules sell a lot better than the random stuff for 30k that doesn't have any 40k rules. Seeing things like the Astral Claws and Red Scorpions get canned is sad, but I bet you that if they had proper Chapter Tactics for 40k, this wouldn't be a problem. :/
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: The Peltists and Hoplites seem like a nice idea, but they just aren't worth the points (not a surprise from forgeworld.) And it seems silly for them to not get traits. If they were troops, got traits, and were ~2 points cheaper, then we'd be talking.
You want a guardsman with double firepower, carapace armour, an invulnerable and canticles, plus two alternate firing modes to cost less than 9ppm?
Thats where the "Always competitive, all the time" internet mentality has lead us. If it isn't stupidly broken it isn't worth it.
People want an even cheaper, more effective version of the 'battalion tax to give Knights an extra 5 cp' over 180 points of guardsmen.
I'm happy to have it cost a bunch more if you get something for those points your paying. It's a matter of efficiency.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: The Peltists and Hoplites seem like a nice idea, but they just aren't worth the points (not a surprise from forgeworld.) And it seems silly for them to not get traits. If they were troops, got traits, and were ~2 points cheaper, then we'd be talking.
You want a guardsman with double firepower, carapace armour, an invulnerable and canticles, plus two alternate firing modes to cost less than 9ppm?
I want it to be worth fielding. Save me the hyperbole.
Hyperbole? I gave a literal description and in fact forgot to mention BS3+.
The rest of your comments strongly imply that you missed that they’re rapid fire 2 on their lasgun equivalent fire mode.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: The Peltists and Hoplites seem like a nice idea, but they just aren't worth the points (not a surprise from forgeworld.) And it seems silly for them to not get traits. If they were troops, got traits, and were ~2 points cheaper, then we'd be talking.
You want a guardsman with double firepower, carapace armour, an invulnerable and canticles, plus two alternate firing modes to cost less than 9ppm?
I want it to be worth fielding. Save me the hyperbole.
Hyperbole? I gave a literal description and in fact forgot to mention BS3+.
The rest of your comments strongly imply that you missed that they’re rapid fire 2 on their lasgun equivalent fire mode.
I didn't miss it. Did you ignore the part where I mentioned Orders? Are you aware of what FRFSRF does?
And yes, with BS3+ they do have more firepower on a model per model basis. And they can get a re-roll aura more easily than some types of guard. But they are still over twice the cost. Guard still have about double the firepower once you adjust for points.
EDIT: To be fair and include the cost of the order giving character, then things do pull more in favor of the Peltasts. So we're looking at guard being more like 1.5x the firepower, not 2x. But that's still better, and then all the other factors I listed...
meleti wrote: I don’t find 4+ (improvable to 3+ with canticles) to be redundant at all. There’s lots of lasguns, hurricane bolters, and splinter rifles out there.
You are correct. It's the 5++ that is redundant, not the 4+. Because the 5++ is only going to get used when getting shot by weapons with ap of more than -1, but this unit is well countered by more common weapons like the ones you listed, so no need to waste the better shots on it.
meleti wrote: I don’t find 4+ (improvable to 3+ with canticles) to be redundant at all. There’s lots of lasguns, hurricane bolters, and splinter rifles out there.
You are correct. It's the 5++ that is redundant, not the 4+. Because the 5++ is only going to get used when getting shot by weapons with ap of more than -1, but this unit is well countered by more common weapons like the ones you listed, so no need to waste the better shots on it.
Yeah, the 5++ won’t come up a lot unless you play against something like Deathwatch. But it’s not like a BS3+ 9ppm unit is overcosted. It’s just not costed so aggressively that it would break the meta. Like 7ppm Stygies Secutarii troops might.
Now that they've got somewhat official rules for 40k, it wouldn't surprise me if GW were to tweak the cost of wargear or the actual models around the end of the year with CA2018.
Really the only thing that the Secutarii need is access to FW Dogmas and Canticles. Once you got that, you got a pretty damn awesome selection of Elite choices, plus I'd like them to benefit from the various Strategems.
meleti wrote: I don’t find 4+ (improvable to 3+ with canticles) to be redundant at all. There’s lots of lasguns, hurricane bolters, and splinter rifles out there.
You are correct. It's the 5++ that is redundant, not the 4+. Because the 5++ is only going to get used when getting shot by weapons with ap of more than -1, but this unit is well countered by more common weapons like the ones you listed, so no need to waste the better shots on it.
Not once they're in cover. It also makes them more impervious to things with AP-2, like Kraken Rounds from Primaris Deathwatch as a super prime example, and Disintegrator spam from Dark Eldar.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: The Peltists and Hoplites seem like a nice idea, but they just aren't worth the points (not a surprise from forgeworld.) And it seems silly for them to not get traits. If they were troops, got traits, and were ~2 points cheaper, then we'd be talking.
You want a guardsman with double firepower, carapace armour, an invulnerable and canticles, plus two alternate firing modes to cost less than 9ppm?
Thats where the "Always competitive, all the time" internet mentality has lead us. If it isn't stupidly broken it isn't worth it.
People want an even cheaper, more effective version of the 'battalion tax to give Knights an extra 5 cp' over 180 points of guardsmen.
But yeah, FW is getting their products split in two ways:
They're getting rid of stuff that doesn't sell as well...
And they're giving other models 40k rules.
I have a feeling that they're probably noticing that models that get 40k rules sell a lot better than the random stuff for 30k that doesn't have any 40k rules. Seeing things like the Astral Claws and Red Scorpions get canned is sad, but I bet you that if they had proper Chapter Tactics for 40k, this wouldn't be a problem. :/
Good, get rid of the dead weight. Get us new stuff and drop the stuff people aren't buying anymore. It's just a waste of money. Also, people are whining about stuff going out of production, but that stuff has been for sale for years. No one bought it. So they put it in last chance to buy and now everyone and their mother needs it.
I'm disappointed that FW is taking so long to get 40k rules out for 30k stuff. They are leaving money on the table by not giving SA and AD Mech rules.
Getting rid of the old versions of the same character isn’t surprising, plus the old upgrade kits. Didn’t they just launch new pads a while ago, though?
And as someone who owns some of those icon kits, they were old and the flash you needed to cut them out of was as thick as the icons. No surprise they're going.
I might pick up the astral claws master of the forge to get the only official GW conversion Beamer. Maybe. Probably not.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: The Peltists and Hoplites seem like a nice idea, but they just aren't worth the points (not a surprise from forgeworld.) And it seems silly for them to not get traits. If they were troops, got traits, and were ~2 points cheaper, then we'd be talking.
You want a guardsman with double firepower, carapace armour, an invulnerable and canticles, plus two alternate firing modes to cost less than 9ppm?
Thats where the "Always competitive, all the time" internet mentality has lead us. If it isn't stupidly broken it isn't worth it.
People want an even cheaper, more effective version of the 'battalion tax to give Knights an extra 5 cp' over 180 points of guardsmen.
But yeah, FW is getting their products split in two ways:
They're getting rid of stuff that doesn't sell as well...
And they're giving other models 40k rules.
I have a feeling that they're probably noticing that models that get 40k rules sell a lot better than the random stuff for 30k that doesn't have any 40k rules. Seeing things like the Astral Claws and Red Scorpions get canned is sad, but I bet you that if they had proper Chapter Tactics for 40k, this wouldn't be a problem. :/
Good, get rid of the dead weight. Get us new stuff and drop the stuff people aren't buying anymore. It's just a waste of money. Also, people are whining about stuff going out of production, but that stuff has been for sale for years. No one bought it. So they put it in last chance to buy and now everyone and their mother needs it.
I'm disappointed that FW is taking so long to get 40k rules out for 30k stuff. They are leaving money on the table by not giving SA and AD Mech rules.
I think the tragedy is that these things are getting discontinued rather than getting rules that make them worthwhile. For example, I've waited 4 editions to run forgeworld chaos dreadnoughts. I remember back in late 4th thinking "Wow, I can't wait until the dreadnought gets buffed enough to be worth using so I can field those models." I even own a couple, that I used despite them being pretty damn bad in 5th (see my signature.) Then we got the helbrute, which isn't terrible, but it's not a dreadnought. I would buy multiple FW dreads and use them as helbrutes now....if Chaos Marines were worth using (yes, I am aware Chaos HQs + daemons are, but that's not chaos marines.) And now the dreads are out of production. And it's maddening, because FW HAS put out Emperor's Children dread rules for sonic weapons. And they are actually damn solid. If only emperor's children was worth playing...
And I had such high hopes for the Thousand Sons codex, as I have a Thousand Sons dread. And they could have had something rad like rubric dread rules. But then they just gave them generic helbrutes and even changed their fluff to say that thousand sons helbrutes are not even thousand sons, to justify them not having sorcerer or rubric dreads. Would they have done this if the FW models were still in production?
The Deathguard dread model also exists, but they also got vanilla helbrutes. And we're expecting World Eaters and Emperor's children codices at some point. And they'll probably get the generic profile too. I have no doubt that GW has missed out on thousands of sales on Legion dreads alone because they don't put out rules for them.
I know of several people who would have been interested in Red Scorpions, or Krieg, or other stuff. But they didn't get the rules update. And now the models are going, so they never will. There's thousands of dollars I would have spent on FW stuff that i've spent elsewhere or on other hobbies just because they couldn't do a very simple rules update that would probably take an afternoon to write. And I'm not the only one I'm sure. And that's really dumb.
I’m beginning to wonder if Fires was an Alan Bligh pet project and no one else wants to touch it out of pain / respect. FW is a pretty close knit community and if that was the last thing one of my friends wrote, I’d be loathe to re-write it.
I wonder if FW is having some policy changes to move it a bit away from personal pet projects.
Traditionally it was a boutique line that let designers be free to make closer to what they wanted without the product constraints of the GW official lines.
However it also has some very heavy bias toward the Marines and Imperials. Xeno and Fantasy lines did get decent support early on, but in more recent years both have had very spotty to low support (fantasy dwindling to almost nothing; whilst Xeno support is hit and miss - Tau get a big hit, but then a lot of what they have is similar to marines/Imperials - blocky war engines; mean while ork and eldar have a fair bit but a lot of it is much older).
I think they are cutting out stuff that just hasn't sold well and with opening up a fantasy department there's a clear move to step away from just "pet projects" and refocus on providing greater diversity of support from FW. Already we see it producing additions for the boxed games like Necromunda and I think broadening its base is also a step toward making FW a more popular line of products. Don't forget GW opened that new "Cafe" site in the USA which I believe allows for USA side ordering of FW products (ergo cutting down significantly on the postage).
Jadenim wrote: I’m beginning to wonder if Fires was an Alan Bligh pet project and no one else wants to touch it out of pain / respect. FW is a pretty close knit community and if that was the last thing one of my friends wrote, I’d be loathe to re-write it.
Ok, so kill the book then and release the Tau/Admech rules as a separate index-style book. Because let's be honest here, nobody really cares about FoC because of the fluff about some random war we've never heard of. We want it because we want rules updates to use our models in 40k.
Jadenim wrote: I’m beginning to wonder if Fires was an Alan Bligh pet project and no one else wants to touch it out of pain / respect. FW is a pretty close knit community and if that was the last thing one of my friends wrote, I’d be loathe to re-write it.
No, we already know that it was an Andy Hoare pet project that he was working on before he got the specialist games job.
I think they are cutting out stuff that just hasn't sold well and with opening up a fantasy department there's a clear move to step away from just "pet projects" and refocus on providing greater diversity of support from FW. Already we see it producing additions for the boxed games like Necromunda and I think broadening its base is also a step toward making FW a more popular line of products. Don't forget GW opened that new "Cafe" site in the USA which I believe allows for USA side ordering of FW products (ergo cutting down significantly on the postage).
Warhammer Cafe allowing for USA ordering of FW products means nothing. It's in Texas---that's not just a "day trip" for many people.
Under the banner of GW specialist games as FW is quietly shuffled off under the stairs like a discarded mk7 marine.
The discarded Mk7 Marine that forms the backdrop of most of the 'We've found the Assassin in the Diorama' photo.
The one that is the very first thing people see once they enter the GW Exhibition centre because it is under the stairs that you climb to get into the Gaming Hall, Bugman's and so on?
It could be better if one compared FW's potential future to the recently shuffled off 2nd Ed IG metals range.
I think they are cutting out stuff that just hasn't sold well and with opening up a fantasy department there's a clear move to step away from just "pet projects" and refocus on providing greater diversity of support from FW. Already we see it producing additions for the boxed games like Necromunda and I think broadening its base is also a step toward making FW a more popular line of products. Don't forget GW opened that new "Cafe" site in the USA which I believe allows for USA side ordering of FW products (ergo cutting down significantly on the postage).
Warhammer Cafe allowing for USA ordering of FW products means nothing. It's in Texas---that's not just a "day trip" for many people.
Yes but surely it makes postage cheaper if you can order direct from there instead of from FW and have to pay shipping fees as well as wait for customs clearance and any fees there too.
I think they are cutting out stuff that just hasn't sold well and with opening up a fantasy department there's a clear move to step away from just "pet projects" and refocus on providing greater diversity of support from FW. Already we see it producing additions for the boxed games like Necromunda and I think broadening its base is also a step toward making FW a more popular line of products. Don't forget GW opened that new "Cafe" site in the USA which I believe allows for USA side ordering of FW products (ergo cutting down significantly on the postage).
Warhammer Cafe allowing for USA ordering of FW products means nothing. It's in Texas---that's not just a "day trip" for many people.
Yes but surely it makes postage cheaper if you can order direct from there instead of from FW and have to pay shipping fees as well as wait for customs clearance and any fees there too.
ing idiots who think that having a business degree is all they need to understand a complex niche-market industry. But sadly that will never happen, since the 
I'd look for a burst of releases in 2019 with book VIII (because it's good policy to add at least 3 months to any timeframe that 
