Ooh hoo hoo, those comments are a show. As expected.
How will I ever be able to play the game knowing these are in the box? The horror!
Heck, they pair well with the cupids and other angelic stuff I think.
I figure, at this point, why not? An even better idea would be to scoop them all up when they hit eBay and cobble together the most friendliest, magicalest, rainbowiest Kings of War army I could make! Toss in the cherubs for added ranged support!
Wraiths are a bit bland, the flapping cloaks don't do them any favours, but at least that's a cool mechanic in leading monsters to the Lightbringers.
Storm Elementals might actually be the contender for worst sculpt in this campaign for me. Really hope they take that one back to the drawing board. The leader could be fixed by just rotating his hand to look like he's preparing to throw a lightning bolt, rather than waving around a bundle of them.
Next stretch goal is a good one, at least. Charon in his ferry. Very nice.
The newest add-on is a reminder that these sorts of commercial projects REQUIRE an art director. Somebody has to look at those sketches or those sculpts and say, "That's not good enough, try again."
frankelee wrote: The newest add-on is a reminder that these sorts of commercial projects REQUIRE an art director. Somebody has to look at those sketches or those sculpts and say, "That's not good enough, try again."
People keep throwing lots of money at a CMON Kickstarter, so I guess it's good enough for them. The marketing team does the rest.
frankelee wrote: The newest add-on is a reminder that these sorts of commercial projects REQUIRE an art director. Somebody has to look at those sketches or those sculpts and say, "That's not good enough, try again."
frankelee wrote: The newest add-on is a reminder that these sorts of commercial projects REQUIRE an art director. Somebody has to look at those sketches or those sculpts and say, "That's not good enough, try again."
People keep throwing lots of money at a CMON Kickstarter, so I guess it's good enough for them. The marketing team does the rest.
You never know what fistful of bills you're missing out on when you don't do your best work! Complacency does seem like a recurring thing with CMON though, you can't say they aren't successful, but then again they've also got financial problems that'll be dogging them for the next year assuming they just come to nothing. Somebody in their bloated corporate apparatus should be watching this and going, "We sell minis to mini collectors, make the best minis you can or get out!"
(It is just one expansion and a couple stretch goal minions, so not a big deal actually, but in principle.)
The difference between the ASOIAF minis and these is very clear and shows what CMON are capable of when someone else has oversight, being a licensed game ASOIAF has to get through Dark Sword and Martin before approval. The War of Souls set shows very little oversight or QC the storm elementals are particularly bad even the painter couldn’t be bothered to try and make them look better.
I’d say Big Child Creative are under huge pressure to get the minis done quickly and in bulk so some minis suffer as a result but someone in CMON should be saying no not good enough fix it or do it again. That said I’d rather a box like this were it’s a clear no from me than several boxes of mixed quality so if they have weak sculpts put them all in one box so they can be avoided.
frankelee wrote: The newest add-on is a reminder that these sorts of commercial projects REQUIRE an art director. Somebody has to look at those sketches or those sculpts and say, "That's not good enough, try again."
People keep throwing lots of money at a CMON Kickstarter, so I guess it's good enough for them. The marketing team does the rest.
Yes although they have shown they can make exceptional minis and concepts. The first CMON, Zombicide:BP etc. are absolutely awesome. ASOIAF has lovely looking minis and some wonderful artwork too.
The MD2 rules sound like what I'd hoped the MD1 rules would have been. But I am strongly balking at the art design of these minis. I really don't know if the game play from the rules will be worth all the money I'd have to sink into miniatures I don't like.
Part of me still thinks, "but with the upgrade kit, you can just play with the old minis and new rules" but that sounds a bit too much like sunk cost fallacy thinking for my comfort. I legitimately don't know whether I'll go in for more than my $1 pledge or not at this point.
It's too expensive to be in if you're not feeling it, get somebody local to pick you up the upgrade pack (which is cheap enough) and go for the retail box eventually if you do decide to make the jump later
Psychopomp wrote: I really don't know if the game play from the rules will be worth all the money I'd have to sink into miniatures I don't like.
After reading the BGG comments about the rules, I'm not all that interested in the game, either. Several backers do enjoy the non-campaign rules, but I already have enough dice-chucking games. HeroQuest Legacy KS is coming soon enough. Our own group plays Gloomhaven, since we like hand management. I do think MD2 KS has plenty of gameplay content, but that's only good if you really will be playing the game frequently. If you like hand-management games and don't mind standees (or have enough miniatures you'll find proxies), take a look at Gloomhaven's Jaws of a Lion, an introductory, less expensive, less content, version of Gloomhaven. MSRP is $50, but you can get it for $40 or less.
I'll probably end up passing on the KS, and wait a few years to see if MD2 base game is $50 or so, not that my game queue will be empty by then. Picked up Z:GH that way, and I still don't have any time to play that game. I have high hopes for the unfoldable "instant" terrain KS, so don't mind skipping MD2 (or Z2 or NotLD or Bloodrage or ....)
To be honest, I'm also in the same case. I'm not sure I will be playing MD2 that much to justify to take everything. And I don't especially need these miniatures for any other game anyway (especially with that quality).
So I'm not afraid to be missing out.
Thing is, I already have way too many games and not enough time to play them all. Another boardgame like MD2 will just take a lot of space in my gaming room for little use. It doesn't matter then what is the value of all this plastic pile and cardbox token, in the end.
I guess the Kickstarter is really targeted at MD1's fans and CMON backers in general. It reeks of FOMO all over the place, really.
The MD2 rules sound like what I'd hoped the MD1 rules would have been. But I am strongly balking at the art design of these minis. I really don't know if the game play from the rules will be worth all the money I'd have to sink into miniatures I don't like.
Part of me still thinks, "but with the upgrade kit, you can just play with the old minis and new rules" but that sounds a bit too much like sunk cost fallacy thinking for my comfort. I legitimately don't know whether I'll go in for more than my $1 pledge or not at this point.
You're not the only one who feels this way... I really don't like the new minis.
But I understand the "upgrade" kit only allows you to play with MD1 minis and monsters using MD2. The MD1 boards don't work, so you may still need a copy of MD2
Very, very frustrating. But has made it easier for me to pass on this one.
pancakeonions wrote: But I understand the "upgrade" kit only allows you to play with MD1 minis and monsters using MD2. The MD1 boards don't work, so you may still need a copy of MD2
This is correct, except that the prologue campaign uses MD1 tiles. The prologue campaign is discussed in one of the previous updates.
I think I'll just save my money for the MotU Kickstarter, whenever it is. I enjoyed MD1 the few times I got to play it, but it was never the classic Warhammer Quest replacement I'd hoped for. But with MD1, I was able to console myself because I loved all the minis, especially the KS exclusive roaming monsters.
I'll leave my $1 pledge in to follow updates and in case something miraculously changes prior to pledge manager, but MD2 just ain't moving me like other CMON campaigns I've backed..
Don't forget, Archon is making a game for Europe, CMON for NA and other parts...most probably different game systems and miniatures.
Seeing Archon's He-Man on the Battlecat makes me very apathetic on this line...both are sculpted well, but, the transition from toy to miniatures just looks goofy for the Battlecat.
For $50, this Kickstarter-Exclusive Optional Buy brings you the Demon Dragon expansion for Massive Darkness 2: Hellscape. This expansion features the huge Demon Dragon Boss and his tile, his Cultists Mob, a new Draconic Corruption gameplay mechanic that can be added to any Quest, and new Quests to face this epic encounter that can be played either in one-shot or in Campaign Mode when played along with the Heavenfall expansion!
The Demon Dragon expansion comes with:
The Demon Dragon 6 Cultist Mob Minions 1 Cultist Mob Leader Demon Dragon Boss dashboard Draconic Mark dashboard 48 cards (6 Mob cards, 6 Mob Items, 36 Draconic Skill cards) Draconic Mark tokens Campaign booklet
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hmm, i'd have preferred a eastern style name for an eastern style dragon (or for it not to have the mustache to fit as a western style wyrm)
but pretty cool and something the vocal minority have been clamouring for
So they caved to all the people begging for a dragon (is a recycled model from 3 years ago apparently) and while everything else in this expansion seems to have wings... the dragon doesn't.
Cultists look cool though.
I don't really feel like its worth 50. Sadly I will most likely end up buying it anyway.
Well that explains the Eastern dragon look, I think it's quite good to get it (now all they need is a stat pack for WoK)
the painted version does have a pretty shonky bit where the tail joins the body (not clear if it's a fit, a design or a painting choice issue), hopefully the fit is better than it looks there on the final PVC
For $25, I’d get that dragon. For $35, I’d wait to see if MM ever puts it on clearance. For $50, I just opened a new tab to look at Reaper’s Bones dragons. Mmmmm, them’s some affordable dragons.
DaveC wrote: Yes apparently this is an unreleased Shael Han dragon it was first shown about 3 years ago and who said CMON don't support Wrath of Kings any more
That explains why my first thought was "That looks like the Shael Han dragon standing on its back legs".
Alpharius was wanting MD to be set in the WOK world. This is going to be as close as it will get I guess.
I don't have an issue with them using a design that never got produced--it's only recycled if it had a release in my opinion. Doubt they made molds for it. The question is if it fits the theme/setting and well...I guess. This game is all over the place design wise.
As for the MoTU announcement. I'm glad that US has CMoN as the rights holder but feel bad that Europe got stuck with the really shady company.
As for the MoTU announcement. I'm glad that US has CMoN as the rights holder but feel bad that Europe got stuck with the really shady company.
I could not agree more.
They have some weird Rackham meets WoK with a dash of Rum and Bones vibe going on. I am still on the fence about backing...even for $1. I sort of want some of the figures, really like one or two sculpts, but I just can't get around the feeling that this is a dumping ground for unreached stretch goal designs from a dozen different campaigns.
And Archon...I really like what they are becoming, but they have the definition of a rough start. I still like their Warzone models, though.
No company is perfect and they're always going to be making sure the owners come out financially fine if there are issues. But at least CMoN appears to be taking the audit results seriously with the independent review.
Archon/Prodos just seam to want to pretend that they never have issues and have never not fulfilled promised items. CMoN is not that. There's lots of valid opinions about their art direction, cast quality, rules but they're opinions and have nothign to do with the fact that so far CMoN has always delivered where Archon has LOAD I think think as they're only non-controversial KSer.
Archon fulfilled a lot more than that. Off the top of my head they've released Load, the sequel, Vanguard of War, the sequel to that (although there may have been issues with separately printed language packs), the Empire of Men resin army from before the switch to board games, their Dungeons & Lasers campaign, the Rampart campaign, and the base game for Chronicle X has shipped out as well. Not to mention other recent sequel campaigns.
CMON had some hiccups with early campaigns too, to be fair.
I also thought I recognized that dragon. Not surprising. Makes me wonder how many other unused sculpts have turned up here. Kind of like what Project Elite did with the Sedition Wars standalone expansion material.
Sometimes I wish they'd just sell figures by themselves but we know that's not where the real big $$$ is.
You get so much stuff for 100 bucks, it feels like nothing to say no to an iffy expansion. If you're desperate to have a dragon in your MD2 games, I guess you'll need it, but there are so many monsters with the MD1 upgrade cards.
I plan to grab a couple extra copies because I'm quite sure the minis will hold value even if the game is terrible, which it won't be.
frankelee wrote: You get so much stuff for 100 bucks, it feels like nothing to say no to an iffy expansion. If you're desperate to have a dragon in your MD2 games, I guess you'll need it, but there are so many monsters with the MD1 upgrade cards.
I plan to grab a couple extra copies because I'm quite sure the minis will hold value even if the game is terrible, which it won't be.
The "model value" plummets after the 100$ pledge.
Heavenfall only gets you 7 normal sized and the 3 larger ones, but if youre going to play the game is pretty important. So its not too bad for 45
4 horseman for 30 is pretty bad though, maybe the rules etc will add a lot to gameplay?
That dragon for 50 is awful, I like the cultists, and want the cards on the offchance I actually get to play the game but the dragon model itself I could easily do without.
The 2 packs for 25 are fine (I think I would rather throw 50 in this direction over the dragon if I was deciding between them)
Its too close to another base pledge if you just pass on 4 cavalry models, 7 infantry and a dragon. The more I think about it the harder it is becoming to pay 80 for that knowing how unlikely the gameplay stuff is to see use for me personally. But the completionist side of me is hard to shut down as well so...
xevv wrote: The "model value" plummets after the 100$ pledge.
Heavenfall only gets you 7 normal sized and the 3 larger ones, but if youre going to play the game is pretty important. So its not too bad for 45
4 horseman for 30 is pretty bad though, maybe the rules etc will add a lot to gameplay?
That dragon for 50 is awful, I like the cultists, and want the cards on the offchance I actually get to play the game but the dragon model itself I could easily do without.
The 2 packs for 25 are fine (I think I would rather throw 50 in this direction over the dragon if I was deciding between them)
Its too close to another base pledge if you just pass on 4 cavalry models, 7 infantry and a dragon. The more I think about it the harder it is becoming to pay 80 for that knowing how unlikely the gameplay stuff is to see use for me personally. But the completionist side of me is hard to shut down as well so...
Yeah, that's mini board game expansions for ya. I might get the 4 Horsemen, but only because they speak to me as models. Still 50/50 though. The core pledge is where it's at, there are people who are going to drop enough on an all-in to buy this core, Descent 3, MBP Ragnarok core, and Masters of the Universe core, or at least darn near close to it. Too luxurious a price tag for me.
Eesh, really not feeling that dragon. Starting to really weigh down on the whole campaign now. Might have to reconsider it.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: not only will it not be a much better deal, I suspect it will have the not terribly good organiser and other thing I forget from their 'partner'
The All-In pledges tend to be gameplay-only, don't they?
The few times I recall going for the all-in, I've still had to add the peripherals to it.
Unless you mean they'll slap it in to pump the numbers for it, in which case - probably.
Monkeysloth wrote: Archon/Prodos just seam to want to pretend that they never have issues and have never not fulfilled promised items. CMoN is not that. There's lots of valid opinions about their art direction, cast quality, rules but they're opinions and have nothign to do with the fact that so far CMoN has always delivered where Archon has LOAD I think think as they're only non-controversial KSer.
Just wanted to mention that Prodos / Archon's LOAD did have a fair amount of controversy. BGG'ers (including myself) tracked down who Archon was. They kept saying they signed an NDA that didn't permit them to reveal themselves. Once I found some sort of link to a problematic KS, they revealed themselves to be Prodos (although Prodos was not actually responsible for that KS). Also, LOAD showed of WIP rules which were the CMON Rum and Bones rules. They disavowed their involvement by saying the game designer they hired was responsible. Prodos / Archon also threatened legal action against BoardGameGeek, where most of this activity took place.
1) They plagiarized Rum and Bones rules (1.0 not the newer 2.0 that kickstarted recently) word for word in numerous places.
2) They have copied character design/abilities from DOTA 2. Down to exact ability names and effects in many cases.
3) They tried to hide they are basically Prodos 2.0 behind a self imposed NDA and only revealed it now that they got caught.
4) They tried to hide their location by stating they were in Chicago but they are in Poland.
5) They hired Mihajlo Vlaskovic who has connections to DemiGod's Rising another problematic KS.
6) The current status of their AvP project is they are out of money and producing things as profits from other projects role into Prodos
7) They lied on numerous occasions to their backers in AvP
8) They heave threatened legal action against users for finding public information on their family members... Aka the owners and shareholders of Archon.
AFAIK, Archon / Prodos is still run by Jared. However, they've made restitution to AvP backers, and fulfilled KS hence. None of their games have particularly good reviews on BGG. I picked up the LOAD game on sale long after the controversy. While I haven't played the game, the miniatures *are* very good. Haven't found an Archon KS or product I've wanted to pledge or purchase, since.
Myself, I'm fine with a company using a sculpt they never released, had a very limited release, or a previous released in a more expensive detailed form. Reaper Bones commonly features plastic figures that were previously released in metal. They've also released a different size of the same sculpt they released previously in Bones. Arguable, CMON's second editions -- including MD2 -- make the previous one obsolete and "inferior" to the current edition.
It feels more and more like a desperate move to reach the 3 million cap (just see how they push for the extension in the following news posts). Big dragon is big to justify the high price (even it if doesn't). Just see the room it takes on the tile, it spreads on so many squares. It will be unplayable.
I think that's beginning to hurt the gameplay itself. It already does with using so many mobs huddling together on a not big enough square. Add all the wings and dynamic poses, and it's becoming a blob.
The miniatures aren't thought to be played for Massive Darkness, in the end. And for a boardgame, that's a trouble.
But I guess CMON backers don't care much for the game itself. It's more for collection, at this point.
Some argue to grab everything so that you sell what you don't need for a high price once everyone rush for second hand sites to get everything, but I'm not sure MD2 will be that hot the demand will be high enough to get that high a price.
Well, I guess you can always find a poor soul dumb enough to waste his money on plastic crap and cardbox tokens. I mean, if CMON backers blindly back anything that comes from CMON, there won't be a shortage of them any sooner.
MD2 current:
$2.8M trend over 22 days
11.7K backers first two days
4.1K+ backers mid-campaign
15,855 backers
1,205 backers
11,748 backers
2.8K $1 pledges
MD1 final:
$3.5M over 31 days
9K backers first two days
6K backers last three days
7.3K backers mid-campaign
22,361 backers
1820 EB @ $110
18,505 backers @ 120
2K $1 pledges
So... fewer backers mid-campaign, and a greater proportion of $1 backers. Results aren't horrible, but .7M may still be left on the table.
I'm wondering how MD2 will do against HeroQuest Legacy. HQL has the nostalgia attraction, and Restoration Games has a friendlier reputation on BGG than CMON, but we don't know about the miniature quality. We do know that the miniatures should be the same theme as the original HeroQuest.
Hard to compare them while incomplete given that they're different lengths of time. Not to mention all the confounding variables outside of CMON's control; I think KS fatigue is real, and I also think contrary to 'popular wisdom' the pandemic has made people more excited about these campaigns as a bright spot in life, not less due to economic ruin.
It'll be interesting to see how they update HeroQuest given that it's in a genre that has had a lot of updating. Are they a company that goes pure nostalgia or do they try to find a happy medium?
frankelee wrote: I think KS fatigue is real, and I also think contrary to 'popular wisdom' the pandemic has made people more excited about these campaigns as a bright spot in life, not less due to economic ruin.
Oh the Hype is real indeed. People are thirsty to see positive stuff, and a CMON KS campaign brings them that.
Yea I dont think anyone is a fan of them putting a card on an expensive (possibly overpriced? I don't know what sleeves cost but they seem comparable to fantasy flights packs at a glance) optional thing.
Also apparently the organizer (which at least looks nice) wouldn't hold even half the cards if you sleeve them, making it kind of useless...
Which means everything from their partnership so far is kind of a bust.
Yeah, the amount is getting a bit of up and down since backers aren't really happy with that exclusive card behind a paywall. Looks like if you push the FOMO too far, some get actually conscious of the insane amount of money they're putting in it and decide to go back at the more valued base.
God the more I watch this campaign I am glad I dropped my pledge to a dollar, but I think I might just pull the plug. I got a lot of other dungeon crawl style games and I don't really get the concept behind winged stuff in the dungeon. I want to back it but at like $500 plus for all in plus shipping, there is too many other games out there and too much stuff. (especially with SW Legion and Marvel Crisis finally putting out Xmen)
Think i will just save my cash and the space in my gaming room on this one. I keep trying to convince myself but honestly I don't see it being a go to game considering I still never opened MD 1.
I understand the all or nothing feeling but for quite a while now it's only really made sense from a value standpoint to do the base pledge on CMON stuff and maybe a single expansion if there's one that really speaks to you.
I have too many CMON all-in pledges not to learn the errors of my way. Games that aren't great, I end up with a pile of unplayed expansions. Even with their hits, I struggle to find the time to cycle through all the expansions.
Base pledge offers exceptional value. If the game proves to be a hit - Yes, I might scramble around looking for an expansion or two. Given past experience with CMON KS games, it's not often that an expansion (beyond what's in the base pledge) makes or breaks their hit games.
Well, it's not like MD2 is the only dungeoncrawler around. Restoration Games is releasing HeroQuest, although I don't know what the sculpts look like. Punga Miniatures made these renders for their Return to Dark Tower, at least.
Also, of course, CMON has the license for He-Man. Maybe we'll have fewer miniatures (I guess it depends on how many nameless minions He-Man fights!), but I'm sure the art director is much more limited in the appearance of the sculpts, and subjects.
Lyn’s grim determination has not only influenced her personality, it also gives her sharp focus and relentless dedication. For a Ranger, those two traits come in very handy, allowing her to better control her arrows before firing!
Dylan’s many years of experience traveling the world and performing confer him extraordinary playing skill (not to mention a vast repertoire!). He’s created and refined a technique to play double notes on his lute, pressing two fingers against the same fret to create eerie melodies. When benefitting from the cover of darkness Dylan is not shy to employ underhand tricks and bend the rules to move Chords around unnaturally. Such a cheat!
(I think Dylan was a Disney villain in a past life)
Father Corvus has done the unthinkable: embraced the Darkness and remain uncorrupted. Perhaps it is his faith or his stalwart mind that keeps him, but no matter what it is, Father Corvus wields the Darkness as a weapon. In battle, Father Corvus is able to harvest magical energies when he uses Strength and Guidance skills and when aided by Shadows, he’s able to transform its very essence into mana. (guest monk)
Well I got the 25$ gameplay all in discount I was hoping for, now I can pretend the dragon only cost 30 and the 4 horseman box 25, at which point I'm ok with them (that dragon is still ugly and Ill never use it but whatever)
Guess I'm in for 285 after the crossover cards.
edit- also slightly disappointed that I dont think there even is a female wizard option between any of md1/2 or the crossover? Unless I missed one.
Should comfortably clear the $3M mark, but I'm doubtful it'll make the $3.5M that MD1 achieved.
Heavenfall Pledge definitely the best option there, quite frankly. I'm not surprised most of the other add-ons are KSE, they really are a bit crap. Gates of Hell is fine enough, it just isn't all that interesting, and the Four Horsemen are cool but not at that price.
They made all-in pledges with a small discount, but yeah that's not especially interesting if you take into account the shipping costs that may be updated later.
Well I've got to admit I was wrong, one of the all in bundles was actually decent with just the expansions & conversion cards, and for a worthwhile discount too at $25 equivalent to a free expansion (as long as it isn't the WoK dragon)
it might well be where I end up, but I can't quite swing it immediately (and Vengur-ish is fun)
This campaign has engendered a lot of griping, but in the end I think it's a pretty sincere effort on the part of the makers to create a fun game with a lot of minis. I have been laughing though because so many people in the comments are like, "I hate this, you should have done this, this over here is a disgrace, I'm going all-in."
It's like a mafia boss out of a comedy movie, right when you think he's about to have you killed he fully accepts your offer.
For a campaign that seems a bit scattershot, and with some odd design choices, to be on the verge of equaling (or surpassing!) the original's funding total, while the world is still in the grip of a pandemic is...impressive!
Daisy is a Gnome with a wild imagination that drives her to create many unusual (and efficient) things. In combat, she’s able to tap into the Darkness and use it in her skills in lieu of physical components. While in the shadows, Daisy has the ability to craft rarer items!
It’s hard to say if there’s anyone crazier than Ryff among the Lightbringers. Barking mad as he is, everyone agrees that he’s great company. When battling with the Lightbringers, Ryff makes good use of the sharp end of his lute, able to roll additional combat dice when facing close enemies. When hiding in Shadows, Ryff is able to play a particularly chilling song that staggers even his hardiest foes!
(guest bard looks gooood)
[img]https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/030/328/903/52d812d17152d0d83ec10318ffcb37e8_original.jpg?ixlib=rb-2.1.0&w=700&fit=max&v=1598321304&auto=format&frame=1&q=92&s=36e66cfd5e96d29438cc20c943e1bf91[img]
Victor may not be exactly a knight in shining armor, but perhaps that’s for the best! He's certainly an unconventional paladin. When traveling with the Lightbringers, Victor is able to seek aid from his connections: He may draw a token from the Rogue bag and use it for an extra Action. Better yet, when in Shadows, Victor may confer this bonus to all heroes Heroes with an aura!
Fine... you got me back CMON. Downgraded from Heavenfall to $1 and now I’m back up to Base.
Don’t think I’m interested in the Campaign but perhaps I will during the PM. But the crossplay ability offers double shifts for minis, and that and gives me a crazy amount of options.
The angry Carebear and Ponies helped lighten things up.
Been identified as "Brancaleone da Norcia", the protagonist of two Italian comedies from 1966 and 1970, played by Vittorio Gassman.
Bit of a deep dive, but I guess it must have the cultural significance in that region that Monty Python and the Holy Grail had elsewhere.
I'm more confused by the fact it's 100% a Green Horde survivor. Was he scrapped from that campaign? Intended to be a future stretch goal if it was more successful? Would have thought they'd just save these things for a third Zombicide Fantasy game instead of haphazardly plugging it into MD2.
I'm more confused by the fact it's 100% a Green Horde survivor. Was he scrapped from that campaign? Intended to be a future stretch goal if it was more successful? Would have thought they'd just save these things for a third Zombicide Fantasy game instead of haphazardly plugging it into MD2.
I'm starting to suspect quite a few things are scraps from elsewhere. Certainly would explain some of the seemingly random additions and how some things seem so out of place.
Just them adding an extra paladin when there is no chance they will give you yet another of all the base classes seems silly after being so methodical with the 2 of each and 1 for each gender (except for wizard where they really dropped the ball). Guess they ran out of random roaming monsters to give us and had to do *something* since it got a little more than anyone expected. I think the last boss and the box is all thats coming now though.
Welp, that sale lets me finish up my Zombicide 1e collection (to maximize my usage of the 2e conversion pack coming with my KS) for super cheap. I'm definitely out on MD2, as this is a much cheaper, better feeling purchase.
I keep hearing people say that things seem random or look like reused pieces, but they never elaborate to explain what they mean. I've begun to assume it's just sort of a fancy way to say "I don't like the dragon," or "I don't like the punycorns," because people would prefer to make it sound like they have some sort of grand indictment of the whole game rather than admit their complaint just boils down to they don't like a thing and nobody is really listening.
Welp, that sale lets me finish up my Zombicide 1e collection (to maximize my usage of the 2e conversion pack coming with my KS) for super cheap. I'm definitely out on MD2, as this is a much cheaper, better feeling purchase.
I'm getting some of the $10 boxes for a fallout RPG. Best price on gouls you'll get.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
frankelee wrote: I keep hearing people say that things seem random or look like reused pieces, but they never elaborate to explain what they mean. I've begun to assume it's just sort of a fancy way to say "I don't like the dragon," or "I don't like the punycorns," because people would prefer to make it sound like they have some sort of grand indictment of the whole game rather than admit their complaint just boils down to they don't like a thing and nobody is really listening.
I don't think people like the overall art direction, at least the ones complaining here, it's prevented me from backing.
There are some designs that are clearly out of place. We know the dragon and the italian guy were designed for other games. I'd argue the Jebediah and the constructs are too. That's not to say it's bad in general, I think we don't realize how often discarded designs are repurposed for other games. But since there's a general dislike of the overall art direction these just stand out more then normally would.
frankelee wrote: I keep hearing people say that things seem random or look like reused pieces, but they never elaborate to explain what they mean. I've begun to assume it's just sort of a fancy way to say "I don't like the dragon," or "I don't like the punycorns," because people would prefer to make it sound like they have some sort of grand indictment of the whole game rather than admit their complaint just boils down to they don't like a thing and nobody is really listening.
The dragon is pretty clearly a Wrath of Kings sculpt that was never produced. I’d love to buy it for a reasonable price...reasonable considering I bought a bunch of the retail WoK dragons when they were $10 each.
frankelee wrote: I keep hearing people say that things seem random or look like reused pieces, but they never elaborate to explain what they mean. I've begun to assume it's just sort of a fancy way to say "I don't like the dragon," or "I don't like the punycorns," because people would prefer to make it sound like they have some sort of grand indictment of the whole game rather than admit their complaint just boils down to they don't like a thing and nobody is really listening.
Sure.
A large number of the designs have thematic appearances to other products: Zombicide Black Plague, Wrath of Kings, Bloodborne, Massive Darkness 1 (obviously). This leads to the thinking that MD2 was an excuse/reason to put already paid for designs and sculpts into a profitable system...they were already there, so why not use them?
I am not really complaining, as I am also not backing MD2 (the only figure I am really interested in is Ryff...), but I find it interesting and financially sound for CMON to do this. It does lead to a less-coherent appearance for the product as a whole (see Trudvang or Blood Rage for coherency arguments), but as it is their current non-chibi dungeon-quest flagship line, it makes sense. That may actually be my main reason for not backing...I like uniformity in my games. Probably another reason why I like most of Rising Sun (seriously, could that have just not make a more accurate 3-Kingdoms expansion?) and the direction of Ankh.
Well I appreciate some specific examples. I have to say the theme makes sense to me and is quite cohesive within itself: yes there are a few specific examples which serve as exceptions that prove the rule, and they've been well covered and accounted for. Not to say people can't dislike the theme or find the theme too scattershot, because it is pretty scattershot. But I'm more surprised people aren't complaining that the theme swipes too much from too many things (D&D, Warcraft, Diablo, Warhammer) that it actually swipes from than being worried the minis are repurposed when they're not.
But generally I'd re-agree with myself, most whining in the KS comments and on BGG is just somebody doesn't like one thing and makes a sweeping statement about CMON or the project because that seems less whiny.
Very, very uneven content on this one but it ended up with enough of the good to get me at the base pledge. It helped that Hades was a really strong finishing sculpt for me. Maybe I'll add the horsemen if I'm feeling flush when the pledge manager happens.
Well, it's done and they've unlocked the last stretch goal in the end.
FOMO won again for CMON.
An interesting end note, though :
We have many exciting projects brewing, but for now we’re focusing hard on our previous campaigns so that they can be delivered as soon as possible. Stay tuned to our Facebook page and Newsletter to be notified when we announce our next campaign.
...then, maybe we won't have lots of news for MD2's progression until they accomplished the previous campaigns...
That won't stop them from launching others KS to gather loads of insane money, certainly.
Someone said the campaign had 149 miniatures. A good price, especially for the "Daddy Daughter" demographic.
MD2 also has twice the scenario content of MD1, although I didn't see the issues raised by BGG during early play on the TTS demo addressed in the comments.
And entire expansion dedicated to campaign play at least suggests that CMON will put more effort into making satisfactory campaign play.
Maybe if Jaws of a Lion calls for ponies and cupids in its first scenario, I'll pick up a pledge...
Sarouan wrote: Well, it's done and they've unlocked the last stretch goal in the end.
FOMO won again for CMON.
An interesting end note, though :
We have many exciting projects brewing, but for now we’re focusing hard on our previous campaigns so that they can be delivered as soon as possible. Stay tuned to our Facebook page and Newsletter to be notified when we announce our next campaign.
...then, maybe we won't have lots of news for MD2's progression until they accomplished the previous campaigns...
That won't stop them from launching others KS to gather loads of insane money, certainly.
I expect that we will still be progressing MD2 and updating us. They added that at the end as they usually announce the next Kickstarter in this message but they are not this time as they are not launching one as soon as usual but focusing on outstanding projects instead.
I suspect that's what their review of the audit told them,
get some of the existing projects off the books without launching anything new since (if you believe them) the issues the auditor had problems with were down to 'debt' owed to KS backers without 'assets' to back them up as they spend the money to make the games, but they never stick around long enough to register
Interesting. I'm not the creative type so it's hard for me to understand why someone would turn down a steady paycheck for the chance at making wider variety of games but Eric is quite prolific and do just find I'd wager.
They also mentioned that Eric is working on, for CMON, a sequel to Blood Rage and a Cyberpunk 2077 game (think I've heard talk of that before). Interesting too see what Blood Rage 2 is since the point of the first one is the destruction of the world.
He's also, now Ankh is a done deal finished his 'trilogy'
I wonder if he's got some ideas for games that don't involve minis? A lot harder for that sort of thing to get made by CMON, and even if they did a lot of the 'fans' just wouldn't get it as they're in it for the bling
I wonder if he's got some ideas for games that don't involve minis? A lot harder for that sort of thing to get made by CMON, and even if they did a lot of the 'fans' just wouldn't get it as they're in it for the bling
I'm sure. Always doing big minis games or cardgames has to be tiring especially since none of them are long term supported with new releases so it's always onto the next thing.
The press release says he's got like a dozen games in some stage of development with CMoN so he's still heavily involved with them for the foreseeable future.
It also says activism and mentions promoting the hobby as part of why he's leaving. Wonder if he's going to be starting some type of trade organization as well or non-profit?
OrlandotheTechnicoloured 756746 109136309cf6e5f0ee8b4620f7444 fcbe6aa3efa.jpg wrote:I wonder if he's got some ideas for games that don't involve minis?
fyi, Dungeons and Lasers 2 is releasing a free generic stone bridge SG for backers of its dungeon terrain and dragon miniatures KS. MD2 has a hellscape bridge and door pack for $15. Some backers wanted a generic bridge (which would suit the MD2 Prologue campaign better). However the D&L2 bridge is 2x4 so is larger than the MD bridges. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/archonstudio/dungeons-and-lasers-second-edition/posts/2938450
$36 for 2 comics here I'll probably pass on this only put $1 in as I knew shipping would be an issue. At least they fixed the address issues so MD2 should be smoother at least there I know I'm facing $50 to $60 in shipping. I like their new pledge manager pleg.it but it's had teething problems.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured 756746 109136309cf6e5f0ee8b4620f7444 fcbe6aa3efa.jpg wrote:I wonder if he's got some ideas for games that don't involve minis?
I've always been very pleased with his work. Honestly, I always use Zombicide as a perfect example of a good board game: It's easy to learn, enough so a small child can figure it out- and it's still challenging. It's 'simple' enough that it can be modified and tweaked to add in house rules and whatever else a group of players might want to do.
That man should be pleased: Zombicide has a special place in my heart. I bought the game, tinkered with it.. but on Halloween there were all these teengers and younger people that were sort of 'doing nothing' because they weren't old enough to drink... and the normal 'Halloween' stuff, they were a bit too old for. So I offered to host a board game night, talked to some of their parents (most already knew me), and some other adults- we worked out a 'Zombicide night' at a local 'Conference Center' (which was basically just one room). We arranged transportation for all the younger people to get everyone home, and everyone had a blast. In this area, it's now a local tradition.
Just got word that Trudvang will be delayed an additional year due to the fact that the game as designed is currently just that terrible. On one hand this is no surprise coming from that cursed campaign, on the other hand I feel oddly suspicious that CMON suddenly cares that their game isn't very well designed. I've not been worried about their financial issues, but it's strange they announce this right before it was supposedly supposed to go to the factory, and not say 6 months ago when it was also this poorly designed.
Basically Eric Lang left and the new people they brought in didn't like the game play and narrative side of things and want to basically redo half the game. Hard to say if that's a good or bad thing but the new people have a pedegree for sure. Francesco Nepitello and Marco Maggi (War of the Ring, Age of Conan, The One Ring). They also brought in Umberto Pignatelli who is apparently a big choose your own adventure style writer to help re-write the narrative flow of the game.
Also they promoted Jordy Adan to lead developer. His game Cartographers has garnered some award nominations.
So it's not like like CMoN is just trying to pretend other issues are the cause of delay or try and use this as an excuse for other problems. They wouldn't have gone into as much of an effort explaining what the problems of the game are and what they're going to do to fix them and who's going to fix them if this was smoke and mirrors for other problems in the company.
I've heard the "Eric Lang left" narrative, I just haven't seen any evidence to back it up. To me it seemed Lang was only marginally involved in the game design from the first place, they had him rep it and put his name on it, like they have for many things, but he certainly didn't act like it was his baby.
It strains my credulity to think a new head designer came in and went, "First thing's first, that game over there about to go into production, is it actually good, or have you all been lying to management for a solid year... be honest..."
Like a great politician, did CMON's heads recognize they had a meh game on their hands that no one really wanted to make in the first place, and use that as a handy excuse to not pay to make it when their cash flow might be a little weak after a few years of unchecked corporate bloat, mediocre KS returns, and now COVID strangling their in-store sales and production pipeline?
Sounds a lot more likely than anything to do with Lang, not that I actually know.
Whatever. I don't know what you have against the game. But it's clear you think no one ever wanted it and that it shouldn't exist. Who knows why this is happening but it's not a bad thing they've said "the game isn't working out, we tried to fix it with minimal rules changes but can't so we're delaying to rework it". Yet it seams unless I join in to some CMoN hating and tinfoil hat conspiracies it's clear there's no discussion to have here.
They sold me on the concept of the game, but even during the campaign I thought it sounded a bit out of sync with Lang's style and thought it sounded more like an elevator pitch more than a manifesto on how the game was to be designed.
I often wonder why CMON don't try and do like Blacklist Games did, just run a campaign for a box of thematic minis. Save money on cardboard and designers and just give the people what they want for roughly the same price.
Boardgamers are a larger market than miniature purchases. Despite BlackList nearly giving away 200+ generic fantasy miniatures, it still made less money than a CMON boardgame of a niche subject.
I agree they make more selling the idea of a game to play with your small mountain of minis, but don't forget about Reaper Bones. They have CMON sized successes with just miniatures, and I bet CMON could deliver a package of just minis a lot faster than they do.
Per KS, that's true ($3.5M), but Reaper has to offer far more different sculpts. I suspect CMON designs their boardgames to use multiples of a sculpt, though only to some extent.
Also, of course, CMON cranks out more KS per year than Reaper does, making a total of more money, although I'd like to see how the numbers turn out if Reaper could do more projects. They did have Base Boss and CAV, but I wouldn't count these.
And CMON did do a miniatures-only KS, sort of, with their base inserts, but it didn't make as much money as one of their boardgame KS. Never said why they didn't do it again, so could be anything from money to it being a pet project of someone in the company.
Alpharius wrote: Seems like the whole story here is a rather slender reed to lean upon.
We'll see I suppose, but yeah, this isn't exactly a confidence booster...
Yeah, I agree.
A one year delay is substantial for a company of CMON's size.
That being said, Mythic Games delayed Solomon Kane by longer than a year after apparently redoing huge chunks of the game and it still looks like they will deliver (finally showing physical product etc.).
I can't wait. Maybe they'll incorporate a mechanic where you pick a starting force and then automatically kill your most expensive figure at the top of turn 2 and then make you switch sides with your opponent!
warboss wrote: I can't wait. Maybe they'll incorporate a mechanic where you pick a starting force and then automatically kill your most expensive figure at the top of turn 2 and then make you switch sides with your opponent!
I bet Joel will have the rule "Weakness: golf club".
It's just another zombie game with video game characters. It's not like there are really a lot of diversity with enemies in the video game. I bet the zombies will be managed by the game as dangerous "fauna", and each player will take control of a faction of survivors who are in competition for ressources / want to kill each other. A bit like Mantic Games' "the Walking Dead". Thing is, I believe either it will be repetitive or there will be a linear campaign that you'll only really play once. And of course, you'll have the miniatures, but the characters are just modern human survivors and zombies that sometimes grow a lot of mushrooms out of their flesh - it's not like there aren't miniatures who fit the design already on the market (like Father in Denial Survivor and Surrogate Daughter Survivor). I mean, there is nothing really distinctive in the design of Joel and Ellie - one is a bearded mature man and the other is an adolescent girl with ponytail.
CMON already has Zombicide, anyway.
I bet the only thing that will be interesting will be the kickstarter campaign itself. CMON Kickstarters hype them the hell up, so it's always a good ride to follow - once it's ended, it's just back to the reality of "meh".
I wouldn't be surprised if they will also do something for backers already having Zombicide - maybe a "rule extension" so that you can play the Zombicide survivors as a faction in the Last of Us boardgame, or vice-versa. They will certainly appeal to their Zombicide fanbase with this game, in addition to the fans of the video game series.
Personally, I’ve never heard of The Last of Us. CMON would have to come up with something very special to get me to give them more money before I’ve got Trudvang in my hands.
So, the whole point of The Last of Us is its character and story driven. There is nothing interesing about the world to explore it in different ways.ITs a generic zombie set up with a twist on how zombies where made.
Why a board game? Its not like im gonna gonna hear Ellie make quips or anything during the game.
hotsauceman1 wrote: So, the whole point of The Last of Us is its character and story driven. There is nothing interesing about the world to explore it in different ways.ITs a generic zombie set up with a twist on how zombies where made.
Why a board game? Its not like im gonna gonna hear Ellie make quips or anything during the game.
Well they could do with apps? I think some games use mobile link ups - not for me but heard its a thing?
> each player will take control of a faction of survivors who are in competition for ressources / want to kill each other
Thanks for the post. Only know the video game by name. Of course, factions were in Z1 under Angry Neighbors, and Last could be a way for them to reintroduce these rules in Z2.
CMON seems to have a number of pet projects (eg. HATE), so that could also be a reason. They released Night of the Living Dead, and I guess you could make the same arguments against Night that you could Last, although Night was a classic.
If they were going to do ANOTHER zombie game, couldn’t they get it based off of something like Kingdom? (zombie apocalypse in feudal Asia). At least we could get some different designs then.
Why a board game? Its not like im gonna gonna hear Ellie make quips or anything during the game.
To appeal to the video game fans, I'd say. It's like Dark Souls : taking the license to gather as many backers as they can for a load of money.
The world of Last of Us is nothing really special from other apocalyptic worlds full of zombies. Fact that the zombies are infected with a mushroom parasite is actually treated like any other "zombies turn livings into zombies by bites / injuries" mechanism. Sometimes they use spore clusters as dangerous environmental as well, but it just means you have to wear a gas mask or avoid the place so that you don't get infected. Ellie is immune to this and that's the point of the first game - she's targeted by an organization who hopes to make a cure by dissecting her (the second is just a revenge story), but I can't really see a boardgame focusing on this unless it's for solo or it just wants to tell the same story but with a boardgame. I mean, there's only one Ellie for the players to play, unless CMON makes a really surprising move.
I'm not really holding my breath for this project, to say the least.
SCOOBY-DOO, LOONEY TUNES, AND TEEN TITANS GO! SET FOR MULTI-GAME KICKSTARTER
Nov 12, 2020
Some of the most iconic characters of all time will soon be hitting your tabletops. After the wild ride of 2019’s Wacky Races: The Board Game, CMON is teaming up with Warner Bros. once more to bring you the CMON PRESENTS: THE ANIMATION COLLECTION Kickstarter campaign! The campaign will debut three all new fast-paced, family-friendly games: Looney Tunes Mayhem, Scooby-Doo: The Board Game, and DC’s Teen Titans GO! Mayhem! Each game features incredible, highly detailed full-color painted miniatures.
Looney Tunes Mayhem puts players in the role of classic characters such as Bugs Bunny, Elmer Fudd, Daffy Duck, and the Tasmanian Devil as they bash, bop, and drop anvils on one-another, looking to knock out the other players using CMON’s new Mayhem System rules set. In Teen Titans GO! Mayhem, play as characters like Raven, Robin, Cyborg, and Starfire competing with each other over things like the last slice of pizza, the best spot on the couch, and being the one to bring down the villain. The game uses the same underlying Mayhem rules set, modified to fit the Teen Titans Go! setting. Meanwhile, in the previously announced Scooby-Doo: The Board Game, players become the Mystery Inc. Gang as they attempt to trap and capture the monster that’s terrorizing the town before everyone gets scared away. Jinkies!
Scooby-Doo, Looney Tunes, and Teen Titans Go! set for multi-game Kickstarter
Each game will be available individually during the campaign, so backers can choose the games they want. A bundle of any two or three games will be available at special, discounted Kickstarter prices. The campaign will also offer daily character unlocks and special surprises for each title.
When asked about the games, Geoff Skinner, CMON’s VP of Entertainment, said, “We are beyond excited to be working on these beloved characters for the tabletop. Warner Bros. and DC have been incredible partners in making sure that each game pays due respect to the original series they are based upon and gives players the opportunity to experience these characters in all-new ways. These are truly beautifully produced games, with easy-to-learn yet deep rules sets, and I think fans, gamers, and collectors are in for a real treat.”
The CMON Presents: The Animation Collection Kickstarter campaign is slated to be CMON’s next campaign. Stay tuned for more details!
That’s all, folks!
Automatically Appended Next Post: he interesting bit here is the full color painted minis,
Bit of an update on CMoNs issues it looks like they expect to resolve the issue and publish the 2019 results by the end of this month with the company being relisted sometime thereafter.
Issue 1 - The Distribution agreement (I assume this is with Asmodee).
Mazars investigated and sought a confirmation letter from both parties. They concluded both parties acted within the terms of the confirmation letter and agreement. CMoN received $1.5million upfront in a non-refundable payment and products were supplied to the distributor on a sale basis. Mazars did not uncover evidence that suggested misconduct by the Group’s management or employees with respect to the matters within the scope of the Investigation. Ng Chern Ann personally negotiated the deal and executed the agreement which is in compliance with the groups internal procedures. Mazars have made recommendations that these procedures be changed and the board have full oversight of contracts over $1 million. Legal council should also be retained in relation to preparing legal documents. Basically it's poor governance to have 1 person negotiate and sign off on the deal but not misconduct under the current procedures.
Issue 2 - The prepayments
CMoN front load their KS expenses due to ongoing design and development costs. 3rd parties are often paid in advance of a KS for design, development and production (sculptors, artists etc.) CMoN anticipated an increase in its sales in financial year 2020 and stepped up its development and production activities resulting in the prepayment balances paid to suppliers in 2019 increasing as well. The anticipated sales for 2020 don't appear to be as forecast due to the pandemic with a decline in Q1 (Marvel United) but recovering in Q2 (Ankh. Comics) and Q3 (MD2), Q4 has had no KS to date. Zhonghui are currently auditing this.
Basically these prepayments are significant enough to raise questions about CMoN as a going concern - they've spent money in anticipation of a return that hasn't yet materialised or not to the extent forecast. It sounds like they have a lot in the pipeline they just need to bring it to KS and realise the return if that doesn't happen or the KS underperform there is a risk of them going under. It will interesting to see the 2019 report and see to what extent they made prepayments and what risk it puts them at.
It goes some way to explaining why they have been reusing older already paid for assets in recent KS - like the MD2 dragon that was an unused WoK sculpt.
2021 will see the release of full Faction Packs for each army. This will not only give players the full opportunity to own a physical copy of everything for their faction (released up till that point), but it also allowed us to do a full pass on every individual Unit, Attachment, and Tactics card in the game. As we mentioned, we are happy with the core system and dynamics, so first and foremost we don’t want anyone to view this as some new edition of the game or anything-this was just a chance for us to do a full balance pass and consolidation across... Well, everything. It was a huge undertaking, but we are supremely satisfied with the result. As mentioned, we took this time to evaluate every-single-individual piece of the game. Every Attachment, every Unit, everything.
Now, that might seem like a scary prospect to some: “Everything is different andscary now!” but, to set expectations here - most things didn’t change. As we mentioned, we were happy with the majority of items, and the passes we did were mainly to balance some numbers and, most importantly, streamline a lot of things. It’s quite a lot to cover, so we’re going to have more articles released talking about specific points and whywe’re doing them, and their overall impact on the game. Each article will focus on its own topic, with some examples into the process and reasons for the changes.Again, usually its minor numbers tweaks, but in some cases an existing design just clashed with where we wanted things to be, so a more dedicated “revamp” had to be done. This was rare, however, but again we’ll go into the specifics in greater detail when their time comes.
Just to give some insight into these topics which you’ll be seeing in the coming time:
- Faction styles and roles (“what makes this faction cool and how can it do it better?”)
- Impact of Tactics cards and free Actions. (You gotta earn it!)
- NCUs, Attachments, and the focus of Combat Units. (Levels of power)
- Combat Math (How “killy” is “too killy”?)
- Elements of Control (Do what you want, when you want... Or not?)
2021 will see the release of full Faction Packs for each army. This will not only give players the full opportunity to own a physical copy of everything for their faction (released up till that point), but it also allowed us to do a full pass on every individual Unit, Attachment, and Tactics card in the game. As we mentioned, we are happy with the core system and dynamics, so first and foremost we don’t want anyone to view this as some new edition of the game or anything-this was just a chance for us to do a full balance pass and consolidation across... Well, everything. It was a huge undertaking, but we are supremely satisfied with the result. As mentioned, we took this time to evaluate every-single-individual piece of the game. Every Attachment, every Unit, everything.
Now, that might seem like a scary prospect to some: “Everything is different andscary now!” but, to set expectations here - most things didn’t change. As we mentioned, we were happy with the majority of items, and the passes we did were mainly to balance some numbers and, most importantly, streamline a lot of things. It’s quite a lot to cover, so we’re going to have more articles released talking about specific points and whywe’re doing them, and their overall impact on the game. Each article will focus on its own topic, with some examples into the process and reasons for the changes.Again, usually its minor numbers tweaks, but in some cases an existing design just clashed with where we wanted things to be, so a more dedicated “revamp” had to be done. This was rare, however, but again we’ll go into the specifics in greater detail when their time comes.
Just to give some insight into these topics which you’ll be seeing in the coming time:
- Faction styles and roles (“what makes this faction cool and how can it do it better?”)
- Impact of Tactics cards and free Actions. (You gotta earn it!)
- NCUs, Attachments, and the focus of Combat Units. (Levels of power)
- Combat Math (How “killy” is “too killy”?)
- Elements of Control (Do what you want, when you want... Or not?)
-Streamlining Usage (Refining “game language”)
I'm excited to hear about the faction card packs. I've been managing with the phone (really good free app with all stats) but nothing beats the convenience of cards.
I'm hoping for some subtle nerfs to Stark direwolf spam and FreeFolk raider spam. The former being much more urgent than the latter.
I got the impression from an interview that Michael Shinall did that they might be dropping down some 8 attack units down to seven at full ranks. I expect this for Bolton Cutthroats who reliably punch well above their weight.
As more factions come it doing a pass like this to make them all stand out more and be a bit more balanced is a good idea. Too many companies wait until a new version to do it and then let it sit for years with whatever issues arise from the new rules from the new version.
As long as the packs are reasonably priced I see it as a good thing for the game.
The Animation Collection hits Kickstarter on Jan 13th!
Featuring 3 games based on some of our all-time favorite cartoons: Looney Tunes Mayhem, Teen Titans Go! Mayhem and Scooby-Doo: The Board Game. Stay tuned to our channels tomorrow at 3 pm EST to watch the trailer!
Project fully funded in, let's say...10 minutes away from the launch. Why bother, CMON fanboys will rush in and throw their money blindly at whatever CMON will do.
Even if the games suck, at least you can give the miniatures to your children so that they have their own fun fighting the Teen Titans with Scooby team and the looney tunes.
Honestly, I assumed Beast Boy wasn't on the cover because of packaging limitations. Him not being part of the core game at all makes it seem like they slapped the license on some nonsense rather than anything true to the characters. Of course, its also one of those "always intended to reach" stretch goals, so its not really an add on either.
Picked up Mystery Mansion which comes with standees, and toys to replace the with something 3D are about $18, out-of-stock. Teen Titan action figures, colored, are under $25 for six toys. Still, not exactly rational to blow $100+ per franchise for unpainted plastic figures.
> CMON fanboys will rush in and throw their money blindly at whatever CMON will do.
Should mention that, during BF, I picked up three CMON base games at 1/2 the price of KS. (OLGS free shipping vs. KS shipping.) I think I've bought half of my CMON games this way, with the other through KS.
> SCOOBY-DOO, LOONEY TUNES, AND TEEN TITANS GO!
BTW, Normally, a KS with an IP is a yellow flag, and this is CMON's largest IP licensee so far. CMON has worked before with WB for their Wacky Racers boardgame, but this was a retail product.
I'm a sucker for all three IP's and don't have toys for 'em, so there goes my money. Any news on the audit, other than CMON switched auditors? Any CPA's in the audience?
I really like the change personally. Having a "free" activation was a problem and it helps balance some scenarios.
Yeah, no more NCU commanders makes sense.
I'm interested to see what they do with the High Sparrow.
I also like where they are going with house affiliation clearly being an intrinsic (heart) ability so it can't be blanked by effects and where NCUs with powerful effects only get to use them 2-3 times a game, not every time they activate.
It is good to see them thinking this way about activation economy. Hard to know without playing against some cutthroat opponents, but this seems like the 1.7 changes could take the game from "really good" to "Great!"
High Sparrow should be easy enough to design. They've shown pretty great creativity in attachment design and he's not all that odd to put on the battlefield with some of the more zealous units.
Definitely a good thing to get rid of. I liked them in theory, but they really messed with activation advantage. I suspect this also means Bond is going to change a lot. Curious to see what the state of activation control will be.
Not seen it mentioned in the thread but a couple of weeks ago a Swedish store has updated with some previously unannounced products.
The new units are -
Stark Karstark Spearmen
Lannister Clegane Brigands
Night's Watch Ranger Vanguard
Free Folk Frozen Shore Chariots
Targaryan Heroes 2
Baratheon Thorn Watch
Greyjoy Silenced Men
Lannister Red Cloaks
Stark Mormont She-Bears
Largely waiting on the new rules before I buy anything more. Likely pick up Targaryan Heroes 2 just because.... well, they're probably essential. I'd be more excited if I could actually buy the dragons though.
Curious what the deal with Night's Watch Heroes 2 though. :(
No shortage of who could be in Targaryen Heroes 2, but I wonder if it's actually the dragons, the same way Lannister Heroes 2 is King Joffrey and the Kingsguard.
Very keen for She-Bears, and the Frozen Shore Chariots sound great. I just hope they put a bit more effort into them than they did with the Dothraki Hrakkar, the least they could do with such unique units is not duplicate single sculpts.
Tim the Biovore wrote: No shortage of who could be in Targaryen Heroes 2, but I wonder if it's actually the dragons, the same way Lannister Heroes 2 is King Joffrey and the Kingsguard..
The Dragons have there own separate box which was due for release in November but pushed back due to shipping issues (along with the Mammoths) -
I'm glad Starks and Lannisters still have some new units coming, I wasn't quite sure what their future was. She-Bears and Karstarks both sound promising.
It looks like Massive Darkness 2 (PM invites just going out) is going to have an extra 20% slapped on top of it for VAT for both UK and eU backers
despite deliveries going out from hubs in their respective territories
CMON say
Hello everyone. To clarify the VAT situation: Changes in the laws of both UK and EU require that we prove that we have collected and paid the correct VAT. These changes have been enforced starting in 2021. Please note that is regarding the delivery of the project, so the fact that the Pledge Manager launched in 2021 and not 2020 has no relation to the charges, we would still need to charge them as we’re doing on the system. We apologize for not communicating in advance. Please note that the project will still ship from EU (EU friendly) and UK (UK friendly) and therefore no additional customs will be charged.
which is pretty dubious as VAT should always have been being paid (as the importer CMON would have been being paying it) as part of the goods being brought into whatever EU port was used
Haven't got access yet but I'm waiting to see if they've separated out the shipping and VAT into separate charges which still more or less amounts to the same cost quoted during the KS or if the the VAT is extra on top, for example I was expecting shipping to be around $60 to $65 previously this figure was inclusive of any other charges due, if it's just separated out to say $25 shipping and $40 VAT that's fair enough as the VAT needs to be separately accounted for now if it's $60 shipping plus another $40 VAT then I'll be asking for a refund.
The question of how CMON accounted for VAT has always been a bit dubious with Brexit and other changes in VAT rules this year I guess they can't use creative accounting any more and are shifting the cost to backers. I think the days of getting EU backers for CMON KS are numbered.
Also VAT isn't a standard 20% it varies by country so hopefully CMON have allowed for this as the correct VAT may not be collected.
Also to note Zombicide 2 might be affected by this issue it should have shipped end of last year but now is shipping in 2021, VAT is due at the time of delivery (point of first entry into the EU) not the time of payment (although generally that's when it's collected) so there might be a surprise bill when it's delivered to us. If the paperwork does not show VAT paid then local customs will charge it before it is released for delivery and the backer is liable for this charge. The paperwork may already have been printed and attached to parcels in 2020 under prior rules without VAT listed . CMON won't be forthcoming with that info until it's too late.
It looks like the VAT is on top of the postage. Reports of $100 on top of $60 for a standard pledged posted to EU (although someone else said around $100 combined for both for the UK).
CMON taking the piss here really as the whole point of EU friendly is that any taxes are included in the pledge and postage costs rather than charged on top of them. Just seems like they have undercharged and trying to make some money back (also shows they have likely not been paying full taxes on previously Kickstarters by quoting manufacturing costs rather than retail costs but would get caught if they tried that one).
Shipping to Canada is $50 for a base pledge.
I cancelled my MD2 pledge despite being a huge fan. I can't justify a 50% increase in the cost of the pledge just to get it to me.
Guess I'll spend the money on Marvel: Crisis Protocol instead.
Too bad CMON. You used to have good deals.
not very clear, but from my reading since CMON is a business (and not an online marketplace), the consignment of goods coming in at once is over £135 and the goods were sold before this year the old system should apply
(Transactions before 1 January 2021
The new rules will apply to all sales that have a time of supply for VAT purposes of 1 January 2021 or later.
For example, if an order is placed and payment received from the customer on 31 December 2020 then the new rules will not apply, even if dispatch and delivery take place after 1 January 2021. Therefore, for imports the consignment will remain subject to import VAT (unless it is below the Low Value Consignment Relief threshold of £15) and supply VAT should not be charged. For goods already in the UK at the time of supply the VAT liability will remain with the seller rather than the OMP.)
ie CMON should not charge extra as 'import VAT' a customs charge should already be baked in under their EU friendly banner
VAT should definitely be included within the EU / GB friendly flags, that’s the main point of them.
It sounds like if they had released the pledge manager in November and closed at end of December then we wouldn’t have had to pay the costs as the new law only applies to purchases after 1st Jan 2021 (technically purchase isn’t finalised until we complete pledge manager, we have just pledged money towards a project). Purchases before 1st Jan are exempt even if they ship later.
Shipping $30.30
VAT $35.65 (23% correct Irish rate)
VAT on shipping $6.97
Total $72.92
Shipping Estimate for base pledge $42 - $66 Ireland has always been at the high end of the estimates
So their estimates aren’t far off in my case and they have separated out the shipping and VAT charges but it still comes to more or less the same, prices have increased a bit but I’m not going to argue over $9 plus I’ve dropped my plans to get some add ons so that’s $100 I won’t be spending now.
In future I’ll only be backing for $1 and then wait and see what the charges are in the PM, UK and EU backers will have to keep in mind that prices quoted in future KS will incur an additional 20% or more in VAT
In future I’ll only be backing for $1 and then wait and see what the charges are in the PM, UK and EU backers will have to keep in mind that prices quoted in future KS will incur an additional 20% or more in VAT
Indeed, that sounds like the right approach.
It was always dubious their announced prices weren't correct for the turmoil after Brexit. Now, looks like the axe is coming. That's a good thing, IMHO - CMON will be forced to be crystal clear for the next projects after this backlash, so that they don't have this kind of situation again.
To be honest, the american market is still the target here. I wouldn't be surprised if CMON just stop adressing these kickstarters to the EU and UK markets, or at least limit them.
To be honest, the american market is still the target here. I wouldn't be surprised if CMON just stop adressing these kickstarters to the EU and UK markets, or at least limit them.
I had a look at the MD2 community figures of 21,763 backers 8,774 are US (40%), UK is 1313 (6%) the EU as a whole isn’t listed but the top 6 EU countries account for 5724 backers (26%). Of the rest Canada has 1485 (6%) Australia 886 (4%) China has a separate system so isn’t listed. If the UK and EU accounts for about a third of their backers and non US is 60% in total I don’t CMON can afford to focus just on the US market. I think the 2 MoTU KS (CMON and Archon) will give a good indication of what a solely US or EU focused KS looks and funds like.
and funded, though it's moving really slowly for a CMON project,
(but the appeal to minis buyers isn't there unlike most)
and VAT is addressed properly now
>>> Note that, in compliance to the EU and UK laws, VAT will also be charged on the pledge manager system for EU and UK backers. At this time we cannot estimate the cost as the charges vary from country to country and it is based on the price of the order plus the actual shipping costs (which can only be properly determined in the system). However, the VAT charges will be fully disclosed on the system to be examined. European countries that are not part of the European Union or UK will not be charged VAT.
Note: an unpainted version of the scooby doo game will go to retail (so potentially cheaper than the painted ks version),
Seems like an opportunity for CMON to experiment with pre-paints. Both for checking the popularity, and for checking how well their supplier can make them.
Well, there are no SG's, and only daily unlocks for a 7-day campaign, so funding doesn't matter. Pledge you $1 and find out the shipping prices in the PM.
CMON's already had prepaints with their Wacky Racers deluxe edition, so, thankfully, backers won't be the guinea pigs. I've found deluxe components are a yellow flag -- you're paying more money, but don't know the quality you're getting. Some of the Stonemaier Game Realistic Tokens were painted badly, and the Upgrade Your Game coins don't have the weathering wash I prefer on metal coins.
At least we won't be screwed over by the creator like too many have done with the IP. I have the CMON Wacky Racers (and Night of the Living Dead) games, and the miniatures look great. Who want's to buy an unloved Cryptozoic Walking Dead pledge???
fwiw, I did check figure prices on Amazon. $5 to $7 per figure, and some offers look like counterfeits or unpopular styles. Unfortunately, I'm a fan of some of the iconic villains in Scooby-Doo, and they're hard to collect -- and will be usable in the Mystery Mansion game. Two games that I'll never get around to playing with these figures!
Well, they are already past 150.000 $ in funds. I think the target number they hope to achieve is also smaller than other of their projects. Yet the power of CMON's fanboyism is still strong !
Going prepainted was obvious to me. Those are boardgames with very specific characters who have their emblematic colors. Also, it has a higher perceived value if they are already painted - helps boosting the price of board games that aren't that complicated or don't have a lot of replay value anyway.
Like I thought, characters like Beastboy were intended to be revealed as stretch goals or whatever artificial Hype CMON always tries to build. Again, to give a higher perceived value to the backers as they can say "wow the number of characters are almost double than the original set !". Except that the first picture was never to be the original set, since the stretch goals were already planified that way before the campaign. All artificial, from the beginning to the end.
> Like I thought, characters like Beastboy were intended to be revealed as stretch goals or whatever artificial Hype CMON always tries to build.
Conventional boardgames are 2-4 players, so why bother raising the price with more mini's in the box and (gasp) game development?
In the past, KS has included retail expansions as SG's -- er, DU's -- so I'm gonna guess BB was left out of the base game to snag families into buying the expansion. I'm sure DC's marketing department has the numbers of which team members are the most popular among which demographics.
Up past $250,000. averaging $100 per backer. One-of-each and Scooby pledges most popular. That's a lot of copies of Mystery Mansion...
Conventional boardgames are 2-4 players, so why bother raising the price with more mini's in the box and (gasp) game development?
These are daily stretch goals - unlocked with everyday with no link to the number of backers or the money reached. So everything was planned for it from the beginning, including game development.
It's not raising the price, it's maintaining an illusion backers get more as the campaign keeps growing, so that they feel like they get more value than what they thought at the start. While it was always intended to end that big in the end.
Completely and utterly artificial, but sure you're free to fall for these tricks again and again, while all signs are completely obvious to see in the open.
> These are daily stretch goals - unlocked with everyday with no link to the number of backers or the money reached. So everything was planned for it from the beginning, including game development.
No. I'm saying that game development for five players costs additional money than for four players. Also, the cost of a retail unit for five players is higher than for four. Conventional boardgame sales is to provide base game product at the lowest -- or at least competitive -- price, saving additional content for expansions. That's why everyone balks at buying GH, despite the amount of content it has.
I'm as cynical as you are, but please understand what I'm saying.
No. I'm saying that game development for five players costs additional money than for four players. Also, the cost of a retail unit for five players is higher than for four.
Yes, I understand that. That's why I'm saying that cost was already included in CMON's plans, otherwise they wouldn't have put Beastboy like this (he's not Kickstarter Exclusive). Some boxes were clearly intended to be like this for retail as well. It's just the picture leads people to believe the opposite, and I think it was made on purpose to build that artificial Hype.
If you missed out on HATE in the messy old games KS/M thing it looks like CMON fond some more games, expansions and extras and sold them to miniature market
I have to say, HATE is a blast to play. I went all in on that crazy vault KS, but playing the campaign is great. I tend to lose a lot, but still fun to bring on to the table.
And yes, those scenery packs definitely add to the feel.
Just thinking about what was left over via the time machine kser to see what else they might have sold to MM. Hate old sold around 150 of it's 770 special bundles on the KSer main page -- I doubt many bought it in the PM. Green Horde only sold a little over half it's bundles but I know a lot of people wanted some of the SG stuff but there were plenty left over from what remember of lots of things for that game.
There was plenty of KS exclusive things left from other Zombiecide games and Massive Darkness 1.
I think the only ones that sold out were Bloodrage, rising sun and a few of the older games that have a small, but strong, fanbase.
Also I just noticed that the Core box includes all the SG and is cheaper then if you bought it via the OG KSer or Timemachine.
Oh dang. The big box for a hundo is a great deal. Lots of cool sculpts. The big giant guys are real standouts imo. I've painted a couple and they've been really fun and rewarding to paint.
Didn't get in the KS but I love the Hate sculpts, plus MM has some great discounts (more so with usd/eur getting destroyed... probably even compensates the shipping).
If you're wondering what expansion is the best to grab, I can recommend the Mother Prophecy, if you're looking for some really nice large figure models.
I never bought the Sarassa or Vore Nash expansions, but I don't feel compelled to do so here to be honest.
I love westerns, but I don't love zombies and I wasn't thrilled with the quality of Zombicide Invader, so I'll tell myself I'll pass on this, put in a dollar, and end up pledging the day before the pledge manager closes.
Gallahad wrote: I love westerns, but I don't love zombies and I wasn't thrilled with the quality of Zombicide Invader, so I'll tell myself I'll pass on this, put in a dollar, and end up pledging the day before the pledge manager closes.
Art direction or sculpt quality? As I thought the sculpts and final product were very good but a lot of meh concept art.
Gallahad wrote: I love westerns, but I don't love zombies and I wasn't thrilled with the quality of Zombicide Invader, so I'll tell myself I'll pass on this, put in a dollar, and end up pledging the day before the pledge manager closes.
Art direction or sculpt quality? As I thought the sculpts and final product were very good but a lot of meh concept art.
Sculpt quality. I actually love the art direction of the basic workers, hunters and tanks. They are already doing double duty as Deep Ones, etc.
The heroes in my box all had very shallow detail and tiny tiny heads.
When I compare them side by side to the heroes from Project Elite or Death May Die the difference is very noticeable.
I will keep an eye on this...my group is NOT a fan of the Zombicide game system (pity...I quite like it) but the miniatures end up in all sorts of places for us.
And this could add a welcome mix to our WWX campaign.
I'm a big fan of Savage Worlds: Deadlands, so western figures are always welcome. I'm sure the SG's will have plenty of celebrity cowboys. I hope there will be terrain, but doubt it. I had the original Shadows of Brimstone figures, but they were awful and I traded the game away.
I also skipped Zombicide: Invader, but picked up the Z:Iark for 1/2 off during the holidays. Yeehah!
PsychoticStorm wrote: Sigh the only zombicide then did not do in the "proper" style is the sci fi one I was so hyped about been in this style....
This makes sci fi one even more a disappointment.
I'm pretty much in the camp that they went with a more 40k style design for that to attempt to draw players from that market to the campaign and it really didn't work.
For me, I liked the sculpts, models and general quality of the Scif-Fi Zombicide theme, I bought the lot through the KS. What let it down for me was the gameplay / mission content, which I felt the equipment cards played a large part of.
They missed some real genius here. The Prototype weapons are "meh". Where was the Doom 'BFG'? Or the 'Zorg ZS-1' (5th Element)? Even the basic cards lacked variety even on the artwork. This lead to all the missions pretty much being the same. Get an objective, the same objective as the last mission, get to the exit. If you happen to pass a Prototype weapon, pick that up as well (it's the same as the standard one, just needs batteries).
The Mold was a good idea, but executed badly. Now you ended up with a board full of card that covered all the nice artwork of the board and generally got in the way of gameplay. There should have been at least two boards that were just either the exterior or cave interior. Then you could have done missions were you need to run from one building to another, with all the issues of being in those environments bring. I've ssen online on BGG a new pack of equipment cards, if they were sold as a finished set I'd buy them.
I've backed Zombicide Season 2, and this seems better. There's variety with the optional rules for the unique Zombie sculpts, and the day/night rules seem a good addition. I hope the game cards bring a level of variety.
For the Western theme, I'll see if the rules / missions bring any variety. The sculpts I'm sure will be top notch. I'll be looking at the variety of cards, missions, and it'll be a combination of those if I back it.
Still never done a Zombicide.
I don’t need any more board games really, don’t have the space, but always think maybe I should get one.
I do like western models, not that I have a use fore them or own any.
What is the model quality like for Zombicide in general?
And size wise, how do they look compared to other game systems?
> I don’t need any more board games really, don’t have the space, but always think maybe I should get one.
How's holiday shopping for boardgames in the UK? Miniature Market has some sort of arrangement with CMON for excess stock or something, and has deep discounts of some CMON game every few months. HATE was their most recent one. Picked up three CMON boardgames at 1/2 of KS plus shipping (no SG's).
What is the model quality like for Zombicide in general? And size wise, how do they look compared to other game systems?
I only have Green Horde, in Kickstarter form, and I'm very happy with it.
I mostly picked it up for the add-on minis -- the prospect of a zombie giant and zombie dragon was irresistible to me.
But I've played the core game a few times, and really enjoyed it, especially as a family game.
CMoN makes some of the most consistent PVC/Boardgame plastic out there and even the models that disappoint in this area are usually better then most other. Green Horde, as mentioned above, Rising Sun, most Zombiecide in general are very crisp, for the material, figures.
The game plays ok. It's not one of my top 10 boardgame system but it plays very well and generally fast (30-45min once you learn the rules) so I'd say it straddles simple D&D light boardgame with party game as people can pick up the rules pretty quickly. The downside to where I slot it is the game takes a bit of effort to set up so it can't really ever be closer to a true merger of those two types of games.
But with most of these Kickstarted games I have a policy that I have to have a use for the miniatures elsewhere so they just don't sit in a box and get used maybe once a year. So other tabletop games (converted some zombicide stuff to Fallout last month for example) or for RPGs.
CMON's model quality generally is significantly higher than Reaper Bones, Monolith/Mythic, and any other PVC makers I've seen. I'd say that the Blood Rage minis are about my fave of the CMON PVCs but the Zombicide ones are very decent too.
The newer bones black are really nice, don't have bones USA which is also a new material, so certain Reaper lines are as good of quality as CMoN.
I've also got two Monolith games (Conan and mythic battles) and I'd say those two games are as good as the average CMoN stuff (for the most part) but not as good as some things CMoN puts out like ASoIF and Rising Sun which I think are their best.
Monkeysloth wrote: The newer bones black are really nice, don't have bones USA which is also a new material, so certain Reaper lines are as good of quality as CMoN.
I've also got two Monolith games (Conan and mythic battles) and I'd say those two games are as good as the average CMoN stuff (for the most part) but not as good as some things CMoN puts out like ASoIF and Rising Sun which I think are their best.
Bones Black -- yeah, fair! I don't own the newer Bones stuff yet.
Hmm, I felt the Conan minis were a mixed bag -- some of the bigger ones were pretty decent, the snake especially, but the facial features on the human-sized ones seemed much more akin to old-style Bones melty-face nonsense than the sharpness I expect of CMON.
Urgh. This is getting harder and harder to resist the more I think about the characters that are sure to be in the game.
Can I really resist a game with a miniature of the Man with No Name?
Or Lee Van Cleef?
I don't know if I can. I think I'm doomed to just keep buying CMON games between Kickstarter and ASOIAF, they just keep on giving me what I want.
I've had a ton of fun playing Zombicide Invader with the family, even with so-so hero minis.
Death May Die is fun for game night with other couples.
Project Elite is always an adrenaline rush.
And ASOIAF always has such a rewarding gameplay experience, with every choice feeling impactful. Not to mention the well sculpted low fantasy minis that find their way into nearly every roleplay/skirmish game I play.
What can I say? They aren't perfect, but they deliver what I want.
Monkeysloth wrote: The newer bones black are really nice, don't have bones USA which is also a new material, so certain Reaper lines are as good of quality as CMoN.
I've also got two Monolith games (Conan and mythic battles) and I'd say those two games are as good as the average CMoN stuff (for the most part) but not as good as some things CMoN puts out like ASoIF and Rising Sun which I think are their best.
Bones Black -- yeah, fair! I don't own the newer Bones stuff yet.
Hmm, I felt the Conan minis were a mixed bag -- some of the bigger ones were pretty decent, the snake especially, but the facial features on the human-sized ones seemed much more akin to old-style Bones melty-face nonsense than the sharpness I expect of CMON.
I've painted a decent amount of the Conan stuff and the ones that look melty face are more the material doesn't reflect light very well. There are a few that have very soft detail that are from the white plastic that looks bad in general but the majority of the game has pretty good detail.
Sounds good! Next question is if you want to pick up ZorA via KS or retail. With retail, you *might* get the base game at 1/2 the price you paid for the KS plus shipping. Myself, if the SG's for the KS are must-have, then I'll back it. Otherwise, I'm on the fence so will wait for retail.
CMON Mini's are great, but, realistically, I won't have time to paint them. Our group prefers Gloomhaven, and I have resin figures from Tiny Furniture which I prefer to paint. Less prep, fewer eyeballs.
Why bother debating ? It's a CMON Kickstarter. A Zombicide one. They will (again) explode the counter because CMON fanboyz.
Pretty much sure you can remove the "s" from "nuns with guns" here. I'd be more focused on the mexican survivor.
To me, that new box is certainly the easiest to use as a rebrand of the "classic" zombicide. It may be a western, but honestly it will be working pretty much the same than with a modern setting. I mean, in Black Plague, you can add magic and not use guns. Here...well, you will use guns like in a modern setting.
I guess we can expect refined rules with all the last erratas and such. Maybe a new unneeded mechanism to make it unique, but I don't expect a lot of effort from this. Even some zombie artwork for this western looks like redesigned zombies from the modern setting, honestly.
ced1106 wrote: > they just keep on giving me what I want.
Sounds good! Next question is if you want to pick up ZorA via KS or retail. With retail, you *might* get the base game at 1/2 the price you paid for the KS plus shipping. Myself, if the SG's for the KS are must-have, then I'll back it. Otherwise, I'm on the fence so will wait for retail.
Yeah, I picked up Zombicide Dark Side, Project Elite and Death May Die at retail because the Kickstarter exclusives didn't grab me.
Zombicide does really benefit from having the stretch goal survivors, but you really only need 5-10 more survivors. Anything else are just extras that never get used.
Going to wait for retail. Im tired of paying crazy shipping prices and then finding it at retail with SG's with free shipping at MM. I pay $70 for S&H and then find cheaper with KS exclusives and SG's. A great example is HATE.
Ernster wrote: Going to wait for retail. Im tired of paying crazy shipping prices and then finding it at retail with SG's with free shipping at MM. I pay $70 for S&H and then find cheaper with KS exclusives and SG's. A great example is HATE.
I get it (I also bought Hate) but to be fair there were a fair few years between the project and it hitting retail. Are there other CMON projects that have hit retail with the stretch goals? Hate is the only one I know of.
I'm interested. curious to find out what they did to make this version unique.
here are some ideas for future zombicide cash grabs diesel Punk WWII Zombicide, Retro sci fi Zombicide a sillier version of there invasion zombicide with ray guns and a 1930's feel, and Prehistoric cavemen and dinosaurs zombicide.
@ Gallahad
BloodBorne is a pre order for $87.99. I do not know if it includes the SG's. The Expansions, the 2 of them so far, are $31.99.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I was able to justify Pledging with the SG's as a bonus when Shipping was a decent price. However, in Ca an "ALL IN" is $70+
Automatically Appended Next Post: I may Pledge $1 to determine the value as I have hoped for this Western theme.
Ernster wrote: @ Gallahad
BloodBorne is a pre order for $87.99. I do not know if it includes the SG's. The Expansions, the 2 of them so far, are $31.99.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I was able to justify Pledging with the SG's as a bonus when Shipping was a decent price. However, in Ca an "ALL IN" is $70+
Automatically Appended Next Post: I may Pledge $1 to determine the value as I have hoped for this Western theme.
Yeah, it all comes down to the extra content. Lately, much hasn't been worth the extra spend. You will probably be able to get the base game for this in a couple years from a retailer for 70$-80 USD shipped. So take the pledge cost plus their estimated shipping plus $15, subtract $80, and see if the stretch goals alone are worth that much.
I'm 95% confident that the Bloodborne game you get from retailers won't include the stretch goals.
I passed on several Ankh expansions because I knew I'd be able to get them cheaper later, and the extra content with them was trivial.
Hate is kind of unique for CMoN as it didn't have a retail box so it was kind of an all or nothing. It also didn't sell well during the Time Machine KS/Clearance when CMoN was shutting down their warehouse.
Now maybe some stuff from the leftover stuff also made it to MM. Will be interesting as there was still some Green Horde KS exclusive stuff that didn't sell out. People at the time thought that CMoN would just do another Time Machine like KSer in a few years with newer stuff mixed in with the old but that doesn't seam to be the case if they off loaded all of Hate.
> I don’t think over here we get anything like these MM half price deals, with possibly stretches included etc.
Sorry to hear that! Just to be clear, the deep discount holiday sales I've seen in the USA are almost always only for base games without the SG's. Many online stores have free shipping at $100, so it's not hard to reach it with a CMON game, even with a discount.
> Assuming that detail shows in the models. It could sway me.
Pledge $1 and check for VAT and shipping in the PM. Found some UK-based miniature companies, although they use resin / metal as casting material. So they could be more expensive per miniature, but have better details, and cost less for shipping and fees.
EDIT: Probably going to back for bulk purchase of western figures, 2D map boards, and, to a lesser extent, western zombies. I'm a fan of the Savage Worlds: Deadlands RPG, so these figures should be useful. For now, I can't find them at a bulk price, only individual figures.
I'm certainly looking for better hero models for Shadows of Brimstone and these certainly do look like they fit the bill. Ah well, what's another box of Zombicide to put next the others...
- no more doors an action is no longer required to open a door you just enter a room at a breakpoint in a wall
- corpse piles in rooms become temporary spawn points on entering the room. Zombies will spawn in the spawn phase. The spawn point stays active until you deactivate it with holy water.
- if there are 7 active spawn points you auto lose. Scenarios also have normal spawn points.
- Faithful class can use regular water as holy water
- Abombination spawn point activates on drawing an abomb spawn card and stays active until abomb defeated
- no more noise tokens. Single bang token placed at last point of noise and zombies move towards the bang.
- boom token for dynamite takes precedence over bang token
- train arrives after a set number of rounds kills all zombies on track survivors will step out of the way
- the train is your exit point all survivors must board train within 3 rounds to exit
- objectives and challenges must be completed as well to win
- balconies - high ground can be accessed from a stairs or jumping, zombies can’t attack unless they climb stairs
- jump ability 1 action move up to 2 zones and up onto balconies
- bounty weapons - complete bounties to get better weapons eg kill 3 zombies with a rifle in a single turn
- Gatling gun can be moved 1 zone using 3 actions the longer you use it the more powerful it gets +1 die per turn
- no concentrated fire (invader rules)
- classes
- Gunslinger - 6 die with pistol but 5+ accuracy
- Brawler - 3 health instead of 2, can move 2 zones and melee attack as 1 action
- Faithful - can make all zombies in a zone lose their activation for 1 action.
- Townsfolk - search more than once line of sight not limited by room zones
Doors and noise tokens are big changes single bang token is certainly neater and can be used tactically to lure zombies.
Interesting that there are so many classes. I feel the simple two class structure of Zombicide Invader did add depth. With this many it seems it may limit party composition a bit. It basically looks like a faithful class is a must.
Hopefully they showcase the broad variety of faiths present in the old west and don't lean too heavily towards Roman Catholicism. I'd wager that Protestant varieties were much more prevalent in the area during the period.
Corpse piles are printed on the tiles they seem to be 1 per building rather than in each rooms. When you first enter a room with a corpse pile printed on it you place a spawn point token. Zombies don’t spawn immediately they spawn in the next zombie phase. The spawn point spawns new zombies every turn until it’s removed with holy water.
That’s my understanding of it from the gameplay video although they did make a some mistakes and don’t appear overly clear on the rules at some points. I don’t think they managed to get any water holy or otherwise in the gameplay video but I must admit to zoning out several times over the course of its 2 hours.
I've never actually pledged on a Zombicide game before, but this one I might. I played the original and just didn't like it at all, and as far as minis go, it's usually a bunch of zombies that I don't want. But I am interested in getting a bunch of Western minis and to see if a refined game, now several years later, is more attractive.
I'm going to have to wait and see as I don't have a huge love for western themed stuff but the game play changes here do have me interested as many of the things they streamlined were issues I have with greenhorde.
Price per sculpt in the core pledge is going to be amazing by the end of this. If you can live w/ CMON's plastic and typically flat designs, they sure are a good value.
There's a sort of fun appeal to Wild West miniatures that might draw people in, especially if they get a lot of them.
Well, if one were to draw sweeping conclusions based on the first day by comparison to recent Zombicide games, this campaign looks like it'll make around 2.7-2.8 million dollars.
Are we soon going to get an expansion box listed that puts us up to $150 pledge levels or more - followed by a ton of addon 6 character packs? Finishing with a KS only expansion box getting all those $100 pledges to $300?
Fraggle wrote: What is the sculpt quality like now? I last backed a CMON KS a long time back. Would these be an upgrade on the Shadows of Brimstone stuff?
I seem.to remember the PVC (??) being fairly bendy and shallow detail.
As ever would guess the painted examples or resin / 3D printed versions at this point.
I'll hand it to capitalism on this one, the quality of PVC minis has SKYROCKETED. PVC remains bendy, but I like that, it means you don't have to treat the models like Fabergé eggs or have them break. It can vary from company to company, and even from product to product by one company, but I'm not worried at all for the quality of a CMON product in terms of how the PVC minis will look.
Fraggle wrote: What is the sculpt quality like now? I last backed a CMON KS a long time back. Would these be an upgrade on the Shadows of Brimstone stuff?
I seem.to remember the PVC (??) being fairly bendy and shallow detail.
As ever would guess the painted examples or resin / 3D printed versions at this point.
I'll hand it to capitalism on this one, the quality of PVC minis has SKYROCKETED. PVC remains bendy, but I like that, it means you don't have to treat the models like Fabergé eggs or have them break. It can vary from company to company, and even from product to product by one company, but I'm not worried at all for the quality of a CMON product in terms of how the PVC minis will look.
I have to agree here.
But even way back CMON was making huge strides in PVC. Kaosball is stellar and from 2015.
Massive Darkness were some of the best PVC fantasy minis on the market - they put the Wizkids junk to shame.
And World of SMOG were even better then anything that came before.
I hear some folks complain about shallow detail. But that’s only if you compare to GWs platinum styrene standard.
Compared to anything anyone else makes in PVC, CMON is one of the best.
I have yet to see any of Mythics PVC models for comparison though.
I wouldn’t at all be worried about model quality with CMON.
About 80% of what I paint these days is CMON PVC, and I have zero complaints. Well, mold lines.
But I’m used to those by now and clean up isn’t so difficult with the softer material.
Really good, although Monolith, FFG, and other boardgame companies also put out high quality miniatures. Watch out for CMON's customer service complaints. Dunno if UK had to pay VAT, but see the Massive Darkness 2 comments if so.
> Would these be an upgrade on the Shadows of Brimstone stuff?
I only had the original terrible SoB miniatures, which were pretty awful.
I don't know what genres you're looking for, but check out Monolith's Mythic Battles if you're into Norse mythology!
It sounds like things have improved since my KS heyday. It looks fun and reasonable momey for a lot of minis which have some cross transferability between games. I'll probably jump in.
Yes original big box SoB minis were awful - im hoping some of these will provide stand ins (our group ended up using lego minifigs
Automatically Appended Next Post: Huh, cut me off as used quick reply.
I like the fact a lot of minis are historical rather than NOT x-celebrity (i know there are some nods in there).
Sarouan wrote: Bah, no one needs that many survivors ever in Zombicide anyway.
They're close to 1.000.000 $ already. CMON could make a Hello Kitty Zombicide and wild fanboyz would keep throwing their money at their face.
CMON only survives on FOMO nowadays.
I just don't think this is true. They didn't raise that much from Night of the Living Dead Zcide.
I purchased retail versions of Death May Die and Project Elite and I've bought massive amounts of Song of Ice and Fire (all retail) as well. I bought the stuff at retail based on the positive reviews for the games and the impressive miniatures.
For Death May Die, I paid something similar to the price of a single combat patrol box from GW. I got a bucket of fantastic miniatures, hours of fun right out of the box, and a great game than keeps on winning the "what do we play tonight?" contest.
I have zero of the KS exclusives.
CMON survives by delivering fun games with fantastic value miniatures in settings people are interested in gaming in. Everything they do is a triple threat as far as I'm concerned. Great value (and frequently just flat out great) miniatures, great gameplay, and great theme/settings.
It's true that CMON profits off of FOMO I don't believe it's the main driver just decent games (sometimes exceptional like Rising Sun) with good mins at a price that no one else can consistently match.
This is from someone that's backed around 4 CMON kickstarters I believe.
I'm in for a buck on Undead or Alive, to follow along to see where it goes. But to be honest, I'm so all in on 1e and 2e modern Zombicide I don't know how much use I'd get out of other genres. I'm kinda blase about my Black Plague set and I didn't even bother with Invader.
It's true that CMON profits off of FOMO I don't believe it's the main driver just decent games (sometimes exceptional like Rising Sun) with good mins at a price that no one else can consistently match.
This is from someone that's backed around 4 CMON kickstarters I believe.
They get pledges by using FOMO as a marketing tool.
Those backers then hype the game, and it sells well at retail.
Zcide itself has sold over 50k copies at retail last I heard.
Without a single exclusive. That puts any of their KS campaigns to shame for sheer numbers.
The he KS will get half that many backers if they’re lucky.
So I wouldn’t say it’s entirely FOMO. I think it’s based more on value. Good minis and a decent game for $100 or less.
That’s a good deal when you compare it to the new Descent coming out, which has a MSRP of $175.
KS exclusives are all about FOMO. Hell, even KS projects are about it as well, since people are afraid they won't have the game at retail. Which is mostly just a baseless fear for a brand like Zombicide, anyway.
What you said just prove my point : no one needs to have that many survivors, be it exclusives or not, to play Zombicide. There's just no point to back the KSer here - especially with the uncertainty of the pandemic around and crazy shipping prices. It's plain better to wait for retail. People said themselves on this very topic they're still waiting for past KS to deliver...and yet they're ready to back for one more ?
What else can be explained by wild fanboyism mixed with FOMO here ?
Good value ? For a Zombicide game ? Like, a game that is known for years and has its core system written by itself already ? Seriously, wake up, people. You're trying to justify your drug, here. It's not about having a game with good value, it never was. It's about pledging a new CMON KS for the sake of it - because it brings you pleasure in itself. It's not about having the game at all or have a great deal, in the end.
Sarouan wrote:...CMON could make a Hello Kitty Zombicide and wild fanboyz would keep throwing their money at their face.
CMON only survives on FOMO nowadays.
Sarouan wrote:KS exclusives are all about FOMO. Hell, even KS projects are about it as well, since people are afraid they won't have the game at retail. Which is mostly just a baseless fear for a brand like Zombicide, anyway.
What you said just prove my point : no one needs to have that many survivors, be it exclusives or not, to play Zombicide. There's just no point to back the KSer here - especially with the uncertainty of the pandemic around and crazy shipping prices. It's plain better to wait for retail. People said themselves on this very topic they're still waiting for past KS to deliver...and yet they're ready to back for one more ?
What else can be explained by wild fanboyism mixed with FOMO here ?
Good value ? For a Zombicide game ? Like, a game that is known for years and has its core system written by itself already ? Seriously, wake up, people. You're trying to justify your drug, here. It's not about having a game with good value, it never was. It's about pledging a new CMON KS for the sake of it - because it brings you pleasure in itself. It's not about having the game at all or have a great deal, in the end.
No one disagrees that FOMO adds to the bottom line of CMON. Your assertion was that CMON only survives on FOMO nowadays. When people chimed in with many examples of the flat out value of retail pledges, you moved the goalposts.
People who carefully evaluate whether it is better to wait for retail or not is a clear sign that there is value for the money outside the KSE. Carefully evaluating whether to wait for retail or not is the opposite of the FOMO you claimed is the life support for CMON.
CMON makes about 55% of it's income from KS and the other 45% from Wholesale and other sources (page 6). That held true for 2019 and 2018 (the full year 2020 report isn't available for comparison). They make $12 to $13 million from wholesale and if they sell at say 40% of MSRP and retailers sell at say 20% discount (CMON have MAPPs but I don't know how strictly they are enforced) that puts the retail value at around $25 million per annum ($9 to $10 million more than KS) (and yes I haven't accounted for Miniature Market stock dumps but that's not the norm). Whilst KS certainly drives initial sales of a game there is more money being made on the retail sales after KS.
CMON also distribute a good few games that went straight to retail without a KS - 93 total games offered at the end of 2019 vs 45 game KS to date. Games like ASOIAF have far exceeded their KS in retail releases (getting hold of them is another issue)
https://cmon.com/products
Sarouan wrote: KS exclusives are all about FOMO. Hell, even KS projects are about it as well, since people are afraid they won't have the game at retail. Which is mostly just a baseless fear for a brand like Zombicide, anyway.
What you said just prove my point : no one needs to have that many survivors, be it exclusives or not, to play Zombicide. There's just no point to back the KSer here - especially with the uncertainty of the pandemic around and crazy shipping prices. It's plain better to wait for retail. People said themselves on this very topic they're still waiting for past KS to deliver...and yet they're ready to back for one more ?
What else can be explained by wild fanboyism mixed with FOMO here ?
Good value ? For a Zombicide game ? Like, a game that is known for years and has its core system written by itself already ? Seriously, wake up, people. You're trying to justify your drug, here. It's not about having a game with good value, it never was. It's about pledging a new CMON KS for the sake of it - because it brings you pleasure in itself. It's not about having the game at all or have a great deal, in the end.
I'm thinking your missing what FOMO means. Kickstarter exclusives aren't about fear of missing out. They are about the decision to either get or not. Sales of them are extremely limited after the first run, so calling it isn't a matter of fear.
The question is do you want those exclusives. Some say, "you don't need all those survivors to play" while others say "variety is the spice of life".
Good value ? For a Zombicide game ? Like, a game that is known for years and has its core system written by itself already ? Seriously, wake up, people. You're trying to justify your drug, here. It's not about having a game with good value, it never was. It's about pledging a new CMON KS for the sake of it - because it brings you pleasure in itself. It's not about having the game at all or have a great deal, in the end.
Even though this is a pretty stupid statement and read too much like a troll I think the irony needs to be called out. You're literally on a forum dedicated to people buying way more little figurines then they'll ever use in their lifetime yelling at people for buying way more little figurines then they'll ever use the wrong way and somehow the wrong reasons.
If your post history was filled why "do you really need to buy that?" types of posts it would be one thing but you're just spouting dumb stuff because you think others here are having their fun the wrong way.
alextroy wrote: I'm thinking your missing what FOMO means. Kickstarter exclusives aren't about fear of missing out. They are about the decision to either get or not. Sales of them are extremely limited after the first run, so calling it isn't a matter of fear.
It's litterally the definition of FOMO - fear of missing out. Since you say sales of them are extremely limited after the first run, so you're afraid of missing them by not pledging the KSer. Knowing perfectly you're spending money while you won't see the game before a good amount of time...if at all.
The question is do you want those exclusives. Some say, "you don't need all those survivors to play" while others say "variety is the spice of life".
If it was true variety in gameplay, sure. Here, it's mostly different miniatures...so the main point here is more for the collection.
Even though this is a pretty stupid statement and read too much like a troll I think the irony needs to be called out. You're literally on a forum dedicated to people buying way more little figurines then they'll ever use in their lifetime yelling at people for buying way more little figurines then they'll ever use the wrong way and somehow the wrong reasons.
If your post history was filled why "do you really need to buy that?" types of posts it would be one thing but you're just spouting dumb stuff because you think others here are having their fun the wrong way.
Not having their fun the wrong way, more like lieing to themselves about the true reasons behind pledging. Talking about "good value" and stuff while the days of CMON KSers really giving out a deal not being there anymore, that makes me sigh. CMON do their KSers with a very particular psychological pattern and they always use the same tricks over and over. So I know there is no debate anyway, it's automatic with every CMON KSer. It's not about selling good games anymore - just getting on the Hype train.
TBH, I can see the pleasure of pledging a CMON KSer, even if I don't see the value anymore of pre-ordering something a year in advance in the current situation with uncertain delivery / expected delays / surprise shipping costs. If it was an obscure game, I can understand the FOMO here. But we're talking about the Zombicide brand in this case.
It's a matter of passion, not reason - true enough.
NAVARRO wrote: Well miniatures look more soulless than other zombicides for sure, like a pure void stl file at its best. Yuck.
Huh, I find the sculpts pretty good. No accounting for taste I guess. They are in reasonably varied stances with good weight placement and pretty good facial expressions.
If they turn out like Death May Die survivors they will be superb and easily some of the best western miniatures on the market.
alextroy wrote: I'm thinking your missing what FOMO means. Kickstarter exclusives aren't about fear of missing out. They are about the decision to either get or not. Sales of them are extremely limited after the first run, so calling it isn't a matter of fear.
It's litterally the definition of FOMO - fear of missing out. Since you say sales of them are extremely limited after the first run, so you're afraid of missing them by not pledging the KSer. Knowing perfectly you're spending money while you won't see the game before a good amount of time...if at all.
The question is do you want those exclusives. Some say, "you don't need all those survivors to play" while others say "variety is the spice of life".
If it was true variety in gameplay, sure. Here, it's mostly different miniatures...so the main point here is more for the collection.
Even though this is a pretty stupid statement and read too much like a troll I think the irony needs to be called out. You're literally on a forum dedicated to people buying way more little figurines then they'll ever use in their lifetime yelling at people for buying way more little figurines then they'll ever use the wrong way and somehow the wrong reasons.
If your post history was filled why "do you really need to buy that?" types of posts it would be one thing but you're just spouting dumb stuff because you think others here are having their fun the wrong way.
Not having their fun the wrong way, more like lieing to themselves about the true reasons behind pledging. Talking about "good value" and stuff while the days of CMON KSers really giving out a deal not being there anymore, that makes me sigh. CMON do their KSers with a very particular psychological pattern and they always use the same tricks over and over. So I know there is no debate anyway, it's automatic with every CMON KSer. It's not about selling good games anymore - just getting on the Hype train.
TBH, I can see the pleasure of pledging a CMON KSer, even if I don't see the value anymore of pre-ordering something a year in advance in the current situation with uncertain delivery / expected delays / surprise shipping costs. If it was an obscure game, I can understand the FOMO here. But we're talking about the Zombicide brand in this case.
It's a matter of passion, not reason - true enough.
If you didn’t want answers, then don’t ask a question.
I also don’t appreciate the insults for making an attempt to explain why CMON does things the way they do.
I don’t own any Zombicide, and have a buck in the western one to check it out.
If folks want to spend their money in any way they want, they have that right.
Just because you don’t do things the same, or see the same value in what some one else does, doesn’t mean it’s worthless.
And if I understand the psychology behind their marketing, then how am I lying to myself or being fooled?
It’s almost like you came looking for some one to argue with when you hurl about presumptions for why some one might answer your questions.
Again, don’t presume that because I answered you that I’m some mindless idiot with no self control or any reason behind any gaming expense I might have. And don’t presume that anyone and everyone pledging for a CMON game doesn’t realize what the marketing does and is for.
I was simply pointing out to you that CMON does really good at retail, which you don’t seem to want to see.
If I decide to spend my gaming money on something you hate, am I still a moron just because you have a differing opinion?
Not having their fun the wrong way, more like lieing to themselves about the true reasons behind pledging. Talking about "good value" and stuff while the days of CMON KSers really giving out a deal not being there anymore, that makes me sigh. CMON do their KSers with a very particular psychological pattern and they always use the same tricks over and over. So I know there is no debate anyway, it's automatic with every CMON KSer. It's not about selling good games anymore - just getting on the Hype train.
TBH, I can see the pleasure of pledging a CMON KSer, even if I don't see the value anymore of pre-ordering something a year in advance in the current situation with uncertain delivery / expected delays / surprise shipping costs. If it was an obscure game, I can understand the FOMO here. But we're talking about the Zombicide brand in this case.
You do realize what you described is called marketing right? Games Workshop has their psychological pattern they use to sell stuff, so does apple, sports teams and ever other business in existence ever. Yet you're acting like it's some secret nefarious thing that only CMoN has mastered when every company that has a thread here in this new forum has their own "psychological pattern" they use to sell to us. None of us here are oblivious to what they're doing.
It's a matter of passion, not reason - true enough.
I was letting it slide for a while, but now it’s spreading, so we need to settle this.
**The abbreviation for “Kickstarter” (noun and verb) is “KS”. A “KSer” would be a “Kickstarterer”. “Kickstarterer.” As in “one who kickstarters”. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT!**
I was letting it slide for a while, but now it’s spreading, so we need to settle this.
**The abbreviation for “Kickstarter” (noun and verb) is “KS”. A “KSer” would be a “Kickstarterer”. “Kickstarterer.” As in “one who kickstarters”. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT!**
That is all.
Kickstarterer.... hmmm... It has a certain riring to it.
Well, following Bob's proposed nomenclature, I think backers would be kickstartererers whereas creators would be kickstarererors. I'll let him have final say on that though.
English is a flexible language. I’d say both are acceptable, although one could be more precise with variants such as Kickstarteror, or even Kickstarteress if one can use it without generating controversy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and Kickstarterteer.
Kickstarter is referring to to the platform's abilities to kickstart. The object ("kickstartee"), then, would either be the company, capaign, or product of the agent (KS).
If the kickstarter is the campaign/company, then the object would be the product.
If they intend the agents to be the backers, ignoring the fact that there's already a term I just used for them (so this is unlikely), they would be the kickstarters, and the kickstartee would still be the company/campaign/product.
The backer is only a kickstartee if what is kickstarted is them, rather than what they purchase, but based on the "donation"/preorder scheme, this doesn't really follow. For instance, one doesn't describe an individual client getting off the ground by buying a product, but the producer getting off the ground.
CMON has also submitted a resumption of trading request to the Hong Kong stock exchange with effect from today 26th February as they consider the audit issues have been investigated and explained.
No shows to go to, so all their show exclusives were just sitting along with stock that they could try and sell. Still, they unloaded a ton of stuff to Miniaturemarket.com and are showing that big of a loss. That’s not good.
Plus , in spite of Covid, extremely poor distribution from Asmodee. It has been a good 5 months odd since any new releases for ASOIAF in the UK, and still none on the imminent horizon. No new product really hamstrings chances to make money. Has this poor distribution been repeated with their other games and IP's?
$3.8 million is still about as much as one or two of their better KS. I think I'd worry more if they were slipping behind projects (which is the case for Trudvang).
Shipped:
* Zombicide 2nd edition
* Night of the Living Dead
* CMON Time Machine
* Bloodborne
CMON liquidated their stock through MM with Wrath of Kings, B-Sieged, Kaos Ball, and I've seen Sedition Wars and Relic Knights at clearance prices. So, while not ideal, it's not like CMON hasn't done anything like this before, even pre-CoVid.
Automatically Appended Next Post: > Has this poor distribution been repeated with their other games and IP's?
Sort of!
Song is, afaik, their first "lifestyle" mini's game through retail channels, although they did have a KS, I'm sure for marketing purposes. You've already seen shortages of individual boxes.
AFAIK, Their business model is "fire and forget". Take the KS profits to make retail copies (this is common with KS projects). While CMON base games seem to be readily available (and sometimes on sale), their smaller expansions aren't. Customers don't like stuff selling out, but, in general, product after an initial run doesn't sell as quickly. RPG sales taper off after the first 90 days, and Monolith is reducing risk for their next MB print run by surveying how many copies of each expansion backers expect to buy.
After KS, I wonder how retail companies can stay in business, with the difficulty it is to judge customer demand.
A $3.8 million loss was MD2.
It’s not that bad nor that big of a deal.
But we’re talking about a company with stocks and shareholders. If it goes belly up it’ll be parted out and sold. And those buying the company will likely want to keep the brand image intact. If projects don’t deliver, the brand is hosed.
I really don’t think that’ll happen. I’m going with my gut in this though. So take my opinion with a grain of salt.
I don’t feel there is much to worry about here. At least not yet.
If we see a second year of losses then it’s time to start panicking.
After KS, I wonder how retail companies can stay in business, with the difficulty it is to judge customer demand.
It really is. Just look at Google Stadia where reports are saying Google overestimated interest in the hundreds of thousands.
Ghool wrote: A $3.8 million loss was MD2. It’s not that bad nor that big of a deal. But we’re talking about a company with stocks and shareholders. If it goes belly up it’ll be parted out and sold. And those buying the company will likely want to keep the brand image intact. If projects don’t deliver, the brand is hosed. I really don’t think that’ll happen. I’m going with my gut in this though. So take my opinion with a grain of salt.
I don’t feel there is much to worry about here. At least not yet. If we see a second year of losses then it’s time to start panicking.
I'm not to worried as last year was a mess for a lot of companies. In the PDF posted they mentioned most of this was due to factory shutdown and massive shipping delays. Remember that only about half their revenue comes from KS campaigns so even if those did normal their direct to retail seams to have taken a hit. And as I've said before many times. If CMoN goes under they're properties are worth enough that another company will buy them (probably asmodee) and I think whoever does would deliver on the KS preorders as it would be horrible bad press otherwise and would probably garner some attention from State Attorneys Generals here in the US.
They're probably the only company that does a lot of crowdfunding that I would say that about. Might be some naivete on my part to state that but it seams way more likely then them just disappearing overnight.
GW's profits soar, Wizkids' profits soar, and CMON's profits...
It would be one thing if ASOIF boxes were available for a few months and then sold out, that would still be a very poor sign of their financial stability, but that isn't even what we're talking about. We're talking about product that has a short pre-order with a very iffy release date, only on a few online retailers, that sells out before most people know about it, and never makes it to stores. When you're in the business of selling game pieces to gamers, you're going to be in a lot of trouble if you don't make game pieces and get them to the gamers who want them.
I think they can always pull themselves out with a slew of miniature-heavy KS campaigns that just deliver, but they obviously fancy themselves more than that as a company, and just from the look of things are a bigger organization than they need to be. Either they figure out distribution, they severely downsize, or they will eventually just be forced to sell themselves off.
It would be one thing if ASOIF boxes were available for a few months and then sold out, that would still be a very poor sign of their financial stability, but that isn't even what we're talking about. We're talking about product that has a short pre-order with a very iffy release date, only on a few online retailers, that sells out before most people know about it, and never makes it to stores. When you're in the business of selling game pieces to gamers, you're going to be in a lot of trouble if you don't make game pieces and get them to the gamers who want them.
While I can understand the frustration of this business model it is a very valid one that lots of companies do. Produce enough that you know will sell so you don't have leftovers. I mean even GW does it to an extent but it's not uncommon as a general business practice. You cannot have a loss on that product if you make less then there's demand for (and that amount you make covers costs). Sure they could make more and profit more, but there's risks involved there that cleary CMoN doesn't want to take.
With boardgames you generally only have 1-2 expansions, if any at all, and if people like the core game enough those expansions could sell easily to them as anyone who plays the game would benefit from the expansion generally.
With a miniatures game you have 30, 40, 50+ expansions that only appeal to a subset of players of the game due to how armies are built so it's very hard to judge and when you're producing in plastic and have to do large volumes. How many of those expansions will you loose money on just to make enough to meet demand, and make more, on a smaller subset?
At this point it does feel like Kickstarter for ASOI&F waves is the best way to go. It would help ensure that everybody gets what they want at launch at least, without the frustrations that have plagued the playerbase for some time. It seems to have worked for Privateer Press and their recent, non-Warmahordes stuff.
> With a miniatures game you have 30, 40, 50+ expansions that only appeal to a subset of players of the game due to how armies are built so it's very hard to judge and when you're producing in plastic and have to do large volumes. How many of those expansions will you loose money on just to make enough to meet demand, and make more, on a smaller subset?
Yeesh! Makes you wonder what companies are crazy enough to do that.
I'd like to know better what plastic miniature wargames are still around and died, but here's what I recall. Note that Star Wars and Star Trek are IP-related, so many customers buy the models to collect based on the shows. A disadvantage of plastic is that companies need a minimum run for a reprint, and companies sometimes don't know if they can sell all the stock before losses set in.
Died:
* CMON: Wrath of Kings. Died.
* FFG: Runewars. DOA.
* FFG: Star Wars Armada. I don't think it's dead, but not selling as well as X-Wing?
* Steamforged: Guildball. Dropped in favor of IP games.
* WizKids: Dragon Attack (?), Mage Knight, MechWarrior.
Still around:
* FFG: Star Wars X-Wing.
* WizKids: Star Trek.
* WizKids: HeroClix (?).
> At this point it does feel like Kickstarter for ASOI&F waves is the best way to go. It would help ensure that everybody gets what they want at launch at least, without the frustrations that have plagued the playerbase for some time. It seems to have worked for Privateer Press and their recent, non-Warmahordes stuff.
Yeah! As much as BGG'ers dismissed KS as a pre-order, a pre-order minimizes risk to the creator, meaning that customers should have better confidence that a "lifestyle" game line will remain in-print. For its Mythic Battles line, Monolith is surveying backers for print-run demand for previous expansions as well. Sure, it's inconvenient for impulse purchasers and late-comers, but I think it's better than not finding product at all, and losing interest in the game line.
It really is. Just look at Google Stadia where reports are saying Google overestimated interest in the hundreds of thousands.
I think that's spin. Microsoft's game streaming service seems very popular and well reviewed; it's a great value and it actually delivered on what it promised unlike Google on both counts. The interest is there for a game streaming service just not the comparatively substandard one they were offering.
It really is. Just look at Google Stadia where reports are saying Google overestimated interest in the hundreds of thousands.
I think that's spin. Microsoft's game streaming service seems very popular and well reviewed; it's a great value and it actually delivered on what it promised unlike Google on both counts. The interest is there for a game streaming service just not the comparatively substandard one they were offering.
They're different beasts. Microsoft's a subscription like Netflix while Google's streaming service required you to buy the games for the most part. Google did have a subscription model but it was for 4k gaming and only came with a handful of free games vs the hundred+ Microsoft provides. Stadia also required you to buy the hardware at $150 which future plans to support just browsers and mobile but those aren't currently part of the product.
From the top of my head, wrath of kings, confrontation resurrection, dark age died or are in the low demand region.
The coolminior not portal discontinued and with news of 2019...
The once sell point of miniatures for painters with loads of niche cool minis, pun intended is gone.
Now you have an avalanche of 1 trick pony KS/Boardgames.
Not for painters, collectors or Tabletop war-gamers... its more a boardgames with a skin to attract people who liked minis.
Its not Cool mini or not is just Cool Boardgames or not.
And thats Fine!
Just not for me so I'm not at least concerned with their profitability.
show. As expected.
Picked up Z:
