Arachnofiend wrote: It's a legal list if you just make the onager detachment a spearhead so I'm just gonna assume it was a silly mistake.
I'd love to see him summarize what the army is supposed to do and how it works in play because I'm definitely not seeing it... Seems like it'd get wrecked hard by chaos daemons and tyranid lists.
I think Wulfey's pre-codex list was similar to this: Cawl with 6 Crawlers, Celestine, Sisters, and a ton of Conscripts. The idea, if I recall correctly, was to march up the board with everything and shoot the enemy off the table.
Arachnofiend wrote: It's a legal list if you just make the onager detachment a spearhead so I'm just gonna assume it was a silly mistake.
I'd love to see him summarize what the army is supposed to do and how it works in play because I'm definitely not seeing it... Seems like it'd get wrecked hard by chaos daemons and tyranid lists.
I think Wulfey's pre-codex list was similar to this: Cawl with 6 Crawlers, Celestine, Sisters, and a ton of Conscripts. The idea, if I recall correctly, was to march up the board with everything and shoot the enemy off the table.
The pinnacle of strategy.I approve.
Infiltrators are actually very cheap for what they can do. Easy access to -3 AP in CC, CP options to increase chances to hit in close combat/shooting, decent shooting for a back-up Wrath of Mars, and 2 wounds, for when it matters. A five man squad for 110, or 220 for 10, is cheap enough to run as chaffe for Onagers. I prefer the taser-flechettes for Wrath of Mars efficiency myself, though.
If admech gets first turn or doesn't get the long board edge short 12" deployment it can work. The problem is when you run up against a deepstrike list and only have 12" of board space to deploy and end up going second. Every daemons list is built around the 3d6 bloodletter charge and if you can't space that out with scouts or a deep deployment ... uh ... yeah it doens't matter what you picked from the admech codex.
axisofentropy wrote: Maxwell Hill won his first 3 LVO games making him the top AdMech player at the end of Day 1 with this army.
Huh, I was actually tempted to try something like this. What is his forgeworld trait? That would tell a lot about how he is playing it.
As for his antihorde, believe it or not those Infiltrators can be pretty nasty anti horde with flechette pistols (EDIT: Whoops he took stub carbines and power swords, I dont know what his game is there then.) They put out 5 shots apiece and can shred things like guardsmen from the look of it. In addition, vanguard have assault 3 lasguns with an 18" range, that deal 2 damage on 6's. They'd help contribute as well. You also need to remember each Neutron Onager is putting out 6 stubber shots. I mean it's nothing spectacular but he actually isn't that screwed for infantry, especially if he can stay back at range a bit. The dominuses all put out reroll 1 auras so he can spread them out and ensure most of his army is hitting well.
I really like the look of his army, those Neutron lasers hit like a train and every time I used them I didn't really have an issue with planes or hard to hit units if you had enough shots. With 6 I'd imagine his plan for dealing with hard to hit units is literally "I'm gonna shoot them more."
Well, gravity reasserted itself and Maxwell Hill lost his last two games against actual good armies:
Win vs. AdMech
Win vs. Death Guard
Win vs. Necrons
Win vs. Grey Knights
Loss vs. Blood Angels
Loss vs. Tyranids/Genestealers
The top 8 is a crapton of Eldar, some Blood Angels or Soup, and one Chaos Daemons. Lots of infantry, lots of flying, as expected. I think taking Icarus is clearly superior to Neutron in the current meta.
Suzuteo wrote: Well, gravity reasserted itself and Maxwell Hill lost his last two games against actual good armies:
Win vs. AdMech
Win vs. Death Guard
Win vs. Necrons
Win vs. Grey Knights
Loss vs. Blood Angels
Loss vs. Tyranids/Genestealers
The top 8 is a crapton of Eldar, some Blood Angels or Soup, and one Chaos Daemons. Lots of infantry, lots of flying, as expected. I think taking Icarus is clearly superior to Neutron in the current meta.
Eldar? So Dark Reaper and Shining Spear spam?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wulfey wrote: If admech gets first turn or doesn't get the long board edge short 12" deployment it can work. The problem is when you run up against a deepstrike list and only have 12" of board space to deploy and end up going second. Every daemons list is built around the 3d6 bloodletter charge and if you can't space that out with scouts or a deep deployment ... uh ... yeah it doens't matter what you picked from the admech codex.
I can't plan for a single strategy from a single Codex at the detriment of every other army. We can put enough roadblocks out front to get us at least one or two good turns of shooting, which is all we need to stop big threats like that.
Yeah, eldar got 5 out of 8 top spots, the top 3 were identical eldar lists AND the 2nd place dude only copied the list 2 weeks prior and didn't even know his stratagems. Didn't stop him from getting 2nd place. Wow. Much balance
Scouts don't just save admech from daemons, they save you from Obliterators, Scions, Tau, Nurglings, and even less deepstrike plays like Lias Issodon. I played a 60 guard body list and the super wide screen didn't give me any distance on the 12" deployment setup. I am pretty sure but will have some test games to confirm that 30 guard bodies and 15 scout marines will be a much better screen. The scout marines provide distance, the guard provide raw padding.
EDIT: the whole reason eldar are overpowered is that the designer's note from chapter approved that prevents DRUKARI and HARLEQUIN strategems from being applied to YNNARRI happened to not be in codex eldar since it came out before chapter approved. That will be fixed in a few weeks, but it applied at LVO which meant that all other lists were junk compared to codex ELDAR strategems applying to index YNNARRI. I bailed on my LVO ticket once I saw that that garbage was going to be legal. Why bother?
Wulfey wrote: Scouts don't just save admech from daemons, they save you from Obliterators, Scions, Tau, Nurglings, and even less deepstrike plays like Lias Issodon. I played a 60 guard body list and the super wide screen didn't give me any distance on the 12" deployment setup. I am pretty sure but will have some test games to confirm that 30 guard bodies and 15 scout marines will be a much better screen. The scout marines provide distance, the guard provide raw padding.
Wulfey wrote: Scouts don't just save admech from daemons, they save you from Obliterators, Scions, Tau, Nurglings, and even less deepstrike plays like Lias Issodon. I played a 60 guard body list and the super wide screen didn't give me any distance on the 12" deployment setup. I am pretty sure but will have some test games to confirm that 30 guard bodies and 15 scout marines will be a much better screen. The scout marines provide distance, the guard provide raw padding.
Raven Guard Scouts, I am guessing?
No chapter tactics because I am too dependent on celestine and hate the space marine HQs. Space marine HQs are stinkers. The good ones are 130 points and they don't carry their weight. It would be nice if something made my scouts live longer or fight better, but that isn't their role. Is there a good, cheap space marine HQ?
Wulfey wrote: Scouts don't just save admech from daemons, they save you from Obliterators, Scions, Tau, Nurglings, and even less deepstrike plays like Lias Issodon. I played a 60 guard body list and the super wide screen didn't give me any distance on the 12" deployment setup. I am pretty sure but will have some test games to confirm that 30 guard bodies and 15 scout marines will be a much better screen. The scout marines provide distance, the guard provide raw padding.
Raven Guard Scouts, I am guessing?
No chapter tactics because I am too dependent on celestine and hate the space marine HQs. Space marine HQs are stinkers. The good ones are 130 points and they don't carry their weight. It would be nice if something made my scouts live longer or fight better, but that isn't their role. Is there a good, cheap space marine HQ?
Not likely. Basic Lieutenant is like 63pt. I don't have CA in front of me, but maybe a Libby? I think those went down in price?
What about taking a tanky HQ in place of Celestine? A biker Captain maybe like the old Smash.... you know, from 7th.
Wulfey wrote: Scouts don't just save admech from daemons, they save you from Obliterators, Scions, Tau, Nurglings, and even less deepstrike plays like Lias Issodon. I played a 60 guard body list and the super wide screen didn't give me any distance on the 12" deployment setup. I am pretty sure but will have some test games to confirm that 30 guard bodies and 15 scout marines will be a much better screen. The scout marines provide distance, the guard provide raw padding.
EDIT: the whole reason eldar are overpowered is that the designer's note from chapter approved that prevents DRUKARI and HARLEQUIN strategems from being applied to YNNARRI happened to not be in codex eldar since it came out before chapter approved. That will be fixed in a few weeks, but it applied at LVO which meant that all other lists were junk compared to codex ELDAR strategems applying to index YNNARRI. I bailed on my LVO ticket once I saw that that garbage was going to be legal. Why bother?
Ah. Did not realise that was what those guys were using. Cheers for the clarification.That sucks you missed the LVO though. Hope you didnt have to much booked in the way of hotels etc.
Anyway, 8th position was a well known UK player who wins a lot of tournaments, running a list which looks identical to many posted up here. I was surprised to see
a) this very competitive player take the "uncompetitive" admech, and
b) a list which looks like the kind of thing I could field!
His skill level will have made a big difference, I am sure.
Anyway here's the list.
Mars Batallion Cawl
Techpriest Enginseer (warlord) with Chorister Technis
3 x 5 skitarii rangers, no upgrades
4 x Dakka Kastelans
1 xNeuron laser Onager Dunecrawler
Stygies VIII Outrider Techpriest Enginseer
4 x Sydonian Dragoons with taser lance and phosphor serpenta and BSDT
1 x Sydonian Dragoon with taser lance and BSDT
1 x Sydonian Dragoon with taser lance and BSDT
Super Heavy Aux Knight Crusader - Thermal Cannon, Gatling Cannon, Stormspear missiles
The next best AdMech came 80th
Hey guys,
This was my list! Thanks for the shout out Silentz. It did really well, I wanted to try out a few things in a competitive setting, namely:
Was four robots enough?
Could a single IK do work?
Were the dragoons worth it?
I played deathguard horde, mortarion and friends, blood angels, Eldar reaper spam and IG over the weekend. I would probably drop the 4/1/1 walkers down to a big unit of six in an auxiliary, if I were to play it again, to better maximise their hitting power.
Lots of good tools in the codex though, guys! Really enjoyed my first shot at pure admech
This was my list! Thanks for the shout out Silentz. It did really well, I wanted to try out a few things in a competitive setting, namely:
Was four robots enough?
Could a single IK do work?
Were the dragoons worth it?
I played deathguard horde, mortarion and friends, blood angels, Eldar reaper spam and IG over the weekend. I would probably drop the 4/1/1 walkers down to a big unit of six in an auxiliary, if I were to play it again, to better maximise their hitting power.
Lots of good tools in the codex though, guys! Really enjoyed my first shot at pure admech
Cool!
I think most people here run 5 Kastelans in their competitive games. They are really strong against a large variety of targets and thus form the core of most armies. 4 is considered the minimum though.
If you drop two Dragoons, something you could do is make the Mars detachment a Spearhead and the Stygies VIII detachment the Battalion; add a Crawler. I would also lose the Serpentas. They don't do enough to justify their cost. I mean, they aren't even pistols...
No chapter tactics because I am too dependent on celestine and hate the space marine HQs. Space marine HQs are stinkers. The good ones are 130 points and they don't carry their weight. It would be nice if something made my scouts live longer or fight better, but that isn't their role. Is there a good, cheap space marine HQ?
No. SMs are like Tau. Their HQs are expected to actually do some fighting and not just stand in as a tax or aura caddy.
I only lost the price of the champions ticket .. like $80. But a flight to vegas and the 4 days of hotels and food was like $1000 when a priced it. I figured i wanted more models more than I wanted that trip. I just moved up to the bay area for a new job and have been going to game kastle tournaments i can drive to instead of spending that much money on tourneys that need hotels.
Wulfey wrote: I only lost the price of the champions ticket .. like $80. But a flight to vegas and the 4 days of hotels and food was like $1000 when a priced it. I figured i wanted more models more than I wanted that trip. I just moved up to the bay area for a new job and have been going to game kastle tournaments i can drive to instead of spending that much money on tourneys that need hotels.
The logic is sound. Ouch that’s a lot for a quick trip.. defo the right call
Wulfey wrote: I only lost the price of the champions ticket .. like $80. But a flight to vegas and the 4 days of hotels and food was like $1000 when a priced it. I figured i wanted more models more than I wanted that trip. I just moved up to the bay area for a new job and have been going to game kastle tournaments i can drive to instead of spending that much money on tourneys that need hotels.
I think you're in the same area as me now; I live in the South Bay. But I haven't been able to play in awhile because my job requires me to stay late on the day that my group's tabletop night falls. Not to mention, my progress in building/painting is abysmal (which to be fair, is fine because I find building/painting to be therapeutic). On top of this, my most-local game store is closing. (Is anyone else seeing how many comic stores have been closing recently?)
Anyhow, which Game Kastle, and what days do they meet on?
Wulfey wrote: I only lost the price of the champions ticket .. like $80. But a flight to vegas and the 4 days of hotels and food was like $1000 when a priced it. I figured i wanted more models more than I wanted that trip. I just moved up to the bay area for a new job and have been going to game kastle tournaments i can drive to instead of spending that much money on tourneys that need hotels.
Bay area fething hurts doesn't it? I came back myself recently to be back with family and I still have a hard time affording stuff!
Wulfey wrote: I only lost the price of the champions ticket .. like $80. But a flight to vegas and the 4 days of hotels and food was like $1000 when a priced it. I figured i wanted more models more than I wanted that trip. I just moved up to the bay area for a new job and have been going to game kastle tournaments i can drive to instead of spending that much money on tourneys that need hotels.
I think you're in the same area as me now; I live in the South Bay. But I haven't been able to play in awhile because my job requires me to stay late on the day that my group's tabletop night falls. Not to mention, my progress in building/painting is abysmal (which to be fair, is fine because I find building/painting to be therapeutic). On top of this, my most-local game store is closing. (Is anyone else seeing how many comic stores have been closing recently?)
Anyhow, which Game Kastle, and what days do they meet on?
The Fremont California Game Kastle is doing a 1 day ITC 3 game RTT this saturday Feb 3. But the app is down right now. I have been going to the mountainview one. It was a serious tourney last time, I played Geoff
Wulfey wrote: I only lost the price of the champions ticket .. like $80. But a flight to vegas and the 4 days of hotels and food was like $1000 when a priced it. I figured i wanted more models more than I wanted that trip. I just moved up to the bay area for a new job and have been going to game kastle tournaments i can drive to instead of spending that much money on tourneys that need hotels.
I think you're in the same area as me now; I live in the South Bay. But I haven't been able to play in awhile because my job requires me to stay late on the day that my group's tabletop night falls. Not to mention, my progress in building/painting is abysmal (which to be fair, is fine because I find building/painting to be therapeutic). On top of this, my most-local game store is closing. (Is anyone else seeing how many comic stores have been closing recently?)
Anyhow, which Game Kastle, and what days do they meet on?
The Fremont California Game Kastle is doing a 1 day ITC 3 game RTT this saturday Feb 3. But the app is down right now. I have been going to the mountainview one. It was a serious tourney last time, I played Geoff
I actually live near that one!
Too bad I don't live near people anymore that'll let me borrow models :(
Wulfey wrote: Is there a good, cheap space marine HQ?
Blood Angel Captain with those relic wings. ofc that requires your warlord to be a Blood Angel but he's really really good and not too expensive. He appears in several top LVO lists.
Wulfey wrote: Is there a good, cheap space marine HQ?
Blood Angel Captain with those relic wings. ofc that requires your warlord to be a Blood Angel but he's really really good and not too expensive. He appears in several top LVO lists.
I am intrigued. I could see blood angels scouts being good and some blood angels HQs being worth losing celestine over. Time to check the PDFs.
If you go with him, you're going to want to bring Sanguinary Guard, Death Company, or something along those lines (both?). Might end up quite a costly point sink.
Personally, I think the strategy is at odds with how the rest of our army works. It's basically charging with 1500 points worth of jetpack infantry. Either they get us within two turns or die trying.
Which makes every game feel like this, down to the singing:
So I could get behind Mephiston. If he gets all 3 buff powers off then he swings like a primarch and can moves like celestine. But that is 3 powers on a 7-6-6. I get how blood angels climbed the ladders at LVO because the strategems they have really do turn CP into pure damage. All kinds of double swing strategems.
Against Blood Angels, what would be the plan? Is it just like against Tau? Castle along a table edge or a large geographical feature, putting as much distance between you and them as possible, leaving no room for a unit to stand? (Six Dragoons and Cawl turned sideways is actually a surprisingly good wall.)
Suzuteo wrote: Against Blood Angels, what would be the plan? Is it just like against Tau? Castle along a table edge or a large geographical feature, putting as much distance between you and them as possible, leaving no room for a unit to stand? (Six Dragoons and Cawl turned sideways is actually a surprisingly good wall.)
Pick up models during their turn. Hope they are all in range of your unengaged phosphorbots. remember to put all your characters on the enemy facing sides of your phosphorbbots so you can heroically intervene before pile ins and hard block units from moving using base to base
Wulfey wrote: Is there a good, cheap space marine HQ?
Blood Angel Captain with those relic wings. ofc that requires your warlord to be a Blood Angel but he's really really good and not too expensive. He appears in several top LVO lists.
oh there's a way to get him the relic wings without a blood Angel Warlord: a 100% blood Angel detachment allows their strategems including the extra relic strategem.
Wulfey wrote: Is there a good, cheap space marine HQ?
Blood Angel Captain with those relic wings. ofc that requires your warlord to be a Blood Angel but he's really really good and not too expensive. He appears in several top LVO lists.
oh there's a way to get him the relic wings without a blood Angel Warlord: a 100% blood Angel detachment allows their strategems including the extra relic strategem.
second of all should not the Adeptus mechanicus have acessto Primaris space marienes ecpsially as the Primar Legion chapter has it's offical headquatrors in the fluff on Mars (althoguh they spend most of their time floating the gallexy looking to bulstor and reiforce)
Why not the Steel confesors part of the the secret chaptors that the ordeo heretocus gave the The Adeptus a naughty slap on the hand.
Wulfey wrote: Is there a good, cheap space marine HQ?
Blood Angel Captain with those relic wings. ofc that requires your warlord to be a Blood Angel but he's really really good and not too expensive. He appears in several top LVO lists.
oh there's a way to get him the relic wings without a blood Angel Warlord: a 100% blood Angel detachment allows their strategems including the extra relic strategem.
I still cannot believe that that was RAI.
You and me both. it's totally bogus imo.
I'm eagerly awaiting details on that mini knight, if it's impoerial knights only or doesn't offer some form of horde management then i'm buying Cawl (yes I dont have him yet) there's a seller on eBay with him for £18 atm.
I really want that mini knight to be good, land raider level toughness but with more weapons options than a regular knight.
Wulfey wrote: Is there a good, cheap space marine HQ?
Blood Angel Captain with those relic wings. ofc that requires your warlord to be a Blood Angel but he's really really good and not too expensive. He appears in several top LVO lists.
oh there's a way to get him the relic wings without a blood Angel Warlord: a 100% blood Angel detachment allows their strategems including the extra relic strategem.
I still cannot believe that that was RAI.
You and me both. it's totally bogus imo.
I'm eagerly awaiting details on that mini knight, if it's impoerial knights only or doesn't offer some form of horde management then i'm buying Cawl (yes I dont have him yet) there's a seller on eBay with him for £18 atm.
I really want that mini knight to be good, land raider level toughness but with more weapons options than a regular knight.
He is going to be a T7 2 shot multi-melta armed Onager with 12" move, 16 wounds, but 4 sword attacks that do d6 damage on a 3+. Probably 220 points base, but 250 after you put the good gear on.
Wulfey wrote: Is there a good, cheap space marine HQ?
Blood Angel Captain with those relic wings. ofc that requires your warlord to be a Blood Angel but he's really really good and not too expensive. He appears in several top LVO lists.
oh there's a way to get him the relic wings without a blood Angel Warlord: a 100% blood Angel detachment allows their strategems including the extra relic strategem.
I still cannot believe that that was RAI.
You and me both. it's totally bogus imo.
I'm eagerly awaiting details on that mini knight, if it's impoerial knights only or doesn't offer some form of horde management then i'm buying Cawl (yes I dont have him yet) there's a seller on eBay with him for £18 atm.
I really want that mini knight to be good, land raider level toughness but with more weapons options than a regular knight.
He is going to be a T7 2 shot multi-melta armed Onager with 12" move, 16 wounds, but 4 sword attacks that do d6 damage on a 3+. Probably 220 points base, but 250 after you put the good gear on.
Wulfey wrote: Is there a good, cheap space marine HQ?
Blood Angel Captain with those relic wings. ofc that requires your warlord to be a Blood Angel but he's really really good and not too expensive. He appears in several top LVO lists.
oh there's a way to get him the relic wings without a blood Angel Warlord: a 100% blood Angel detachment allows their strategems including the extra relic strategem.
I still cannot believe that that was RAI.
You and me both. it's totally bogus imo.
I'm eagerly awaiting details on that mini knight, if it's impoerial knights only or doesn't offer some form of horde management then i'm buying Cawl (yes I dont have him yet) there's a seller on eBay with him for £18 atm.
I really want that mini knight to be good, land raider level toughness but with more weapons options than a regular knight.
He is going to be a T7 2 shot multi-melta armed Onager with 12" move, 16 wounds, but 4 sword attacks that do d6 damage on a 3+. Probably 220 points base, but 250 after you put the good gear on.
Wulfey wrote: Is there a good, cheap space marine HQ?
Blood Angel Captain with those relic wings. ofc that requires your warlord to be a Blood Angel but he's really really good and not too expensive. He appears in several top LVO lists.
oh there's a way to get him the relic wings without a blood Angel Warlord: a 100% blood Angel detachment allows their strategems including the extra relic strategem.
I still cannot believe that that was RAI.
You and me both. it's totally bogus imo.
I'm eagerly awaiting details on that mini knight, if it's impoerial knights only or doesn't offer some form of horde management then i'm buying Cawl (yes I dont have him yet) there's a seller on eBay with him for £18 atm.
I really want that mini knight to be good, land raider level toughness but with more weapons options than a regular knight.
He is going to be a T7 2 shot multi-melta armed Onager with 12" move, 16 wounds, but 4 sword attacks that do d6 damage on a 3+. Probably 220 points base, but 250 after you put the good gear on.
All that, but 300pt.
Worth it if it becomes T8 and 14" move imo.
Don't hold your breath. It will totally be T7 12" move, for sure. GW is just bad at balancing larger models like Knights.
I'm just saying - there exists a world where one could get excited about this model. I am in that world now, and it's great, but I'm sure it will all come crashing down soon.
GW prices models that can both shoot and fight very high. Except for eldar units like shining spears. This mini knight has a gun and a sword, so it will cost a crapton of points. In GWs mind, that this thing can shoot like an onager and fight like a dreadnaught means it should cost as much as an onager and a dreadnaught put together. See also: fist kastelons costing more than phosphor kastelons, despite being a much worse choice under all circumstances. Yes, all circumstances. Even if your opponent brought nothing but rhinos, yes, the phosphor will help more.
Wulfey wrote: GW prices models that can both shoot and fight very high. Except for eldar units like shining spears. This mini knight has a gun and a sword, so it will cost a crapton of points. In GWs mind, that this thing can shoot like an onager and fight like a dreadnaught means it should cost as much as an onager and a dreadnaught put together. See also: fist kastelons costing more than phosphor kastelons, despite being a much worse choice under all circumstances. Yes, all circumstances. Even if your opponent brought nothing but rhinos, yes, the phosphor will help more.
I just got back from the LVO, thought I'd report on how I faired. Answer: very poorly. I want to caveat this with the fact that prior to this year playing my eldar, my worst record was 3-3. 2014 I took second for renaissance person going 5-1, only loosing to Paul McIlvey.
Before I start complaining just gotta say that the tournament did go well for me, I got to play on the warhammer tv stream(https://www.twitch.tv/videos/222744245), and won second place for best hobbyist! Took home a bunch of swag. It was my 5th year there and I'll definitely be back for the 6th. The LVO is such a good tourney. All of my games were against excellent opponents and I had so much fun.
Back to the complaining...
Firstly, my list. I'm aware it's not top tier, but some concessions were made to travelling with it.
Spoiler:
Stygies VIII Battalion Enginseer (Warlord)
Enginseer
All of my games went something like this: Open up with the fistellans and the dragoons absolutely murdering things (magnus T1, giant squiggoth T1, 30 genestealers, etc), then proceeding to fade and lose the game turn 4 onwards. The fistellans and dragoons would be dead by this point having given up 4 point for gangbusters invariably, my rangers would be gone, and the opponent has killed my assassins for at least three headhunter points. After T4 I couldn't compete on objectives. My Dakkastellans rarely died, and I typically had more points model wise left than my opponents at the end of T6. Opponents quickly learned to just stay in cover or out of range of the kastellans and on an objective. My game scores were relatively high, 20-25ish points and a loss kinda thing. Like I said, usually a crazy strong start.
Things to note if you plan on doing the ITC thing:
-Don't take a unit of more than 3 dragoons. Two units of three may not be a bad idea. Giving up max gangbusters is rough. They just aren't tough enough.
-Dakkastellans are a tough unit to play well with that much LOS blocking terrain coupled with the fact the objectives most of the time were statically placed in poor spots for them to castle up on. Datasmiths are more useful than I gave them credit for.
-You need mobile expendable throw away units that can clear chaff. Dragoons may not be bad for this. Deepstriking infiltrators could be okay for this too.
-You'll need a counter assault or free safety type unit to hold your side of the field. We don't really have anything like that, as priests are too slow.
-You need indirect fire weapons. We obviously don't have that.
-Fistellans are horrifically bad. A knight would have been loads better. If the fistellans had a 4++ in combat they may be worth taking. ws 4+ and 3 attacks is bogus. The fact the protocols allows them to FIGHT twice, not double their attacks allows other units to interrupt them. Celestine basically soloed the fistellans one game.
I went 0-4-1, I dropped round 6. All in all I feel that ad mech just simply cannot compete as a mono faction build. We all knew this.
Wulfey wrote: Is there a good, cheap space marine HQ?
Blood Angel Captain with those relic wings. ofc that requires your warlord to be a Blood Angel but he's really really good and not too expensive. He appears in several top LVO lists.
oh there's a way to get him the relic wings without a blood Angel Warlord: a 100% blood Angel detachment allows their strategems including the extra relic strategem.
I still cannot believe that that was RAI.
You and me both. it's totally bogus imo.
I'm eagerly awaiting details on that mini knight, if it's impoerial knights only or doesn't offer some form of horde management then i'm buying Cawl (yes I dont have him yet) there's a seller on eBay with him for £18 atm.
I really want that mini knight to be good, land raider level toughness but with more weapons options than a regular knight.
Why would it be land raider level toughness when even a regular knight isn't that tough?
I saw your poor fist kastelons on the stream. For 'tough' units they just don't have many wounds. A fist kastelons are 121 points for 6 T7 wounds. A rhino is 75 points for 10 T7 wounds. Yeah, the Reecehammer came down hard on big dragoon bombs since they are a guaranteed max 4 points for your opponent in ITC.
ph34r wrote: linds14sr20det, congrats on the hobbyist 2nd place, do you have pics of your forces?
I'm getting some photos done up right away, as surprisingly enough a lot of people are asking for em haha. Off topic, but painting went really well for me, one of my busts earned me a gold in masterclass large. Same category as some really good painters! Guess I must be getting okay at this...
Why would it be land raider level toughness when even a regular knight isn't that tough?
Yeah guess i forgot they have 2+ saves lol. No invuln on a raider though. I kinda expect the mini knight to be t7 14w 3+/5++
I like how were all dismissing this knight based on a single static image. Imagine if we dismissed kastellans based on their default loadout.
It would be kinda pointless imo to have the mini knight simply be an actual mini knight. I mean aside from the wounds and titanic abilites why would you take a full knight if the mini ones played the same role?
For starters a full knight moves 12”, the suped up chicken legs look way quicker than the lumbering bulk of a full knight. So it’s going to be quicker. Imagine if it could use some of the acastus weapons? If it does have some form of admech involvement it could end up with volkite or darklight options. I just cant see what a smaller version of a big knight would offer.
Course it could be another one of those “oh you need some cheaper units to fill detachments?, here’s some BS nobody wants (read: enginseer) so you have at least one cheap tax model to use” but imperial kinights cant benefit from that at the moment. There’s more incetive for it to have a different role; all the knights are LoWatm, so even giving them a single model in another slot is point;ess for detachment tax. Unless the small ones can be built as fast attack or heavy? There could be more imperial knight models on the way to fill detachments i guess. But thats some optimistic tease if we’ve got at least 3 xenos codexes to come first even if imperial knights is the 4th in line.
Things to note if you plan on doing the ITC thing:
[1.] Don't take a unit of more than 3 dragoons. Two units of three may not be a bad idea. Giving up max gangbusters is rough. They just aren't tough enough.
[2.] Dakkastellans are a tough unit to play well with that much LOS blocking terrain coupled with the fact the objectives most of the time were statically placed in poor spots for them to castle up on. Datasmiths are more useful than I gave them credit for.
[3.] You need mobile expendable throw away units that can clear chaff. Dragoons may not be bad for this. Deepstriking infiltrators could be okay for this too.
[4.] You'll need a counter assault or free safety type unit to hold your side of the field. We don't really have anything like that, as priests are too slow.
[5.] You need indirect fire weapons. We obviously don't have that.
[6.] Fistellans are horrifically bad. A knight would have been loads better. If the fistellans had a 4++ in combat they may be worth taking. ws 4+ and 3 attacks is bogus. The fact the protocols allows them to FIGHT twice, not double their attacks allows other units to interrupt them. Celestine basically soloed the fistellans one game.
I went 0-4-1, I dropped round 6. All in all I feel that ad mech just simply cannot compete as a mono faction build. We all knew this.
Added numbers to make this easier to answer.
1. I typically recommend 4x Dragoons. It's a large enough unit to threaten tanks with CDI, and you avoid the pile-in problems of 5-6.
2. Most competitive lists have Earthshakers for this precise reason. Datasmiths have a lot going against them, but yeah, before we had Binharic Override, they were considered a plus.
3. We used to use paired Dragoons for screening before our Vanguard got cheaper and Guard was revealed to be pretty OP. Infiltrators face many of the same problems you found with Fistelans, except they're more fragile and less reliable.
4. Yeah. Closest we have are Dragoons or throwing Cawl at them. =\
5. I recommend 3x Basilisks in every competitive list.
6. Yeah... >_>
Things to note if you plan on doing the ITC thing:
[1.] Don't take a unit of more than 3 dragoons. Two units of three may not be a bad idea. Giving up max gangbusters is rough. They just aren't tough enough.
[2.] Dakkastellans are a tough unit to play well with that much LOS blocking terrain coupled with the fact the objectives most of the time were statically placed in poor spots for them to castle up on. Datasmiths are more useful than I gave them credit for.
[3.] You need mobile expendable throw away units that can clear chaff. Dragoons may not be bad for this. Deepstriking infiltrators could be okay for this too.
[4.] You'll need a counter assault or free safety type unit to hold your side of the field. We don't really have anything like that, as priests are too slow.
[5.] You need indirect fire weapons. We obviously don't have that.
[6.] Fistellans are horrifically bad. A knight would have been loads better. If the fistellans had a 4++ in combat they may be worth taking. ws 4+ and 3 attacks is bogus. The fact the protocols allows them to FIGHT twice, not double their attacks allows other units to interrupt them. Celestine basically soloed the fistellans one game.
I went 0-4-1, I dropped round 6. All in all I feel that ad mech just simply cannot compete as a mono faction build. We all knew this.
Added numbers to make this easier to answer.
1. I typically recommend 4x Dragoons. It's a large enough unit to threaten tanks with CDI, and you avoid the pile-in problems of 5-6.
2. Most competitive lists have Earthshakers for this precise reason. Datasmiths have a lot going against them, but yeah, before we had Binharic Override, they were considered a plus.
3. We used to use paired Dragoons for screening before our Vanguard got cheaper and Guard was revealed to be pretty OP. Infiltrators face many of the same problems you found with Fistelans, except they're more fragile and less reliable.
4. Yeah. Closest we have are Dragoons or throwing Cawl at them. =\
5. I recommend 3x Basilisks in every competitive list.
6. Yeah... >_>
In response to 1) the ITC makes units of four dragoons not a good choice. Giving up that gangbusters point is tough to swallow, since the dragoons will die to any dedicated cc unit. 5 was great for offense, no issues with pile in. Just gave up way too many ITC secondary points.
In response to 1) the ITC makes units of four dragoons not a good choice. Giving up that gangbusters point is tough to swallow, since the dragoons will die to any dedicated cc unit. 5 was great for offense, no issues with pile in. Just gave up way too many ITC secondary points.
I don't think Gang Busters is a good argument for not taking Dragoons. People usually nominate the Kastelans anyway; I bring 5.
Iago40k wrote: Any ideas if Custodes Bikes could be viable for our army? I am toying with the idea of switching dragoons to bikers
Aside from looks, why?
tougher, quicker, Hurricane Bolters, FLY!
Aren't they rather expensive though? (That's what I heard. Can anyone confirm?)
They seem pretty good to me. Group size 3-10. 90 points each for Hurricane bolter ones or 115 for salvo launchers
90 for those with Hurricane Bolters. I dont like the Salvo Launchers though. you get 3 bikes and a shield captain on bike for roughly the same price as 6 dragoons. so a patrol detachment with all the benefits and stratagems to use.
I think the 90pt Hurricane Bolter bikes are boss (although the salvo ones are ho-hum IMO). Chaff control, hits like a brick in CC, great stratagems, there's really nothing to not like.
Fenris-77 wrote: I think the 90pt Hurricane Bolter bikes are boss (although the salvo ones are ho-hum IMO). Chaff control, hits like a brick in CC, great stratagems, there's really nothing to not like.
Do they have a Jetbike HQ? If so, it is theoretically doable. But 270pt for three squads plus an HQ isn't necessarily cheap for so few bodies, but could be a replacement for Dragoon Outrider detachments in our lists. Getting the bonus of Fly, shooting and better CC would be nice.
Yeah, the HQ is base 150. The four bikes would be 19w at T6 2+/5++ dropping 48 bolter shots w/in RF range and pumping out 17 HtH attacks hitting on 2+ re-rolling 1s, and failed wounds on the charge at S6 -3 D3, and another 4 attacks at -2 D1 if you pay the points for the MIsericordia. All for around 420pts. I like it a lot.
Fenris-77 wrote: Yeah, the HQ is base 150. The four bikes would be 19w at T6 2+/5++ dropping 48 bolter shots w/in RF range and pumping out 17 HtH attacks hitting on 2+ re-rolling 1s, and failed wounds on the charge at S6 -3 D3, and another 4 attacks at -2 D1 if you pay the points for the MIsericordia. All for around 420pts. I like it a lot.
Wow... pretty sure that puts our Dragoons to absolute shame.
I've actually been looking at custodes pretty seriously. A supreme command detachment of three shield captains on dawneagle jetbikes is 480 points, which would replace the fistellans in my ITC list. They are basically better in every way than the kastellans for 4 pts less.
Fenris-77 wrote: Yeah, the HQ is base 150. The four bikes would be 19w at T6 2+/5++ dropping 48 bolter shots w/in RF range and pumping out 17 HtH attacks hitting on 2+ re-rolling 1s, and failed wounds on the charge at S6 -3 D3, and another 4 attacks at -2 D1 if you pay the points for the MIsericordia. All for around 420pts. I like it a lot.
Wow... pretty sure that puts our Dragoons to absolute shame.
There's also a stratagem that let's you charge in the opponents charge phase and fight before any of the enemy units HtH. It's 3CP, but it could swing a game in the right spot.
You may as well stop pretending you're playing AdMech at this point Altough I consider the Jetbikes really nice for a fast assault force with Dragoons and Ravenwing.
Aaranis wrote: You may as well stop pretending you're playing AdMech at this point Altough I consider the Jetbikes really nice for a fast assault force with Dragoons and Ravenwing.
We basically have. Aside from Cawlstar + Neutronagers, we have little to run that isn't mediocre or worse. Other armies are doing it better, so we just got to go with what works.
Regarding the shield captain on jetbike, for 36 points more than a kastellan with fists and a combustor you get:
1) better movement
2) better shooting
3) better ws and bs 4) an extra wound
5) 2 more attacks
6) rerolls to hit (shooting and cc) without a support character or canticles
7) rerolls to wound when they charge
8) a 2+/4++ all the time (pure detachment is required for the 4++, otherwise its a 5++)
9) the character rule and therefore heroic intervention
10) FNP for mortal wounds in the psychic phase
11) access to excellent stratagems, warlord traits and wargear
The only upside to the kastellans is strength 10 and a flat 3 damage. The kastellans (assuming the fight twice protocols, and there are a host of problems with fighting twice) BARELY outperform the custodes against T7-T9. Otherwise custodes are always better AND way more survivable.
Compared with a dragoon, the dragoon wins only during a turn you pop CDI (it beats out the captain and the kastellan in CC vs. T7). With the captain being so much more survivable, I'd garauntee over the course of a game he'd put out more damage.
Coupled with the fact that to compete with the shield captain you need to use stratagems or switch into a protocol that limits your shooting, the points values on both dragoons and the kastellans just make no sense.
Fenris-77 wrote: Yeah, the HQ is base 150. The four bikes would be 19w at T6 2+/5++ dropping 48 bolter shots w/in RF range and pumping out 17 HtH attacks hitting on 2+ re-rolling 1s, and failed wounds on the charge at S6 -3 D3, and another 4 attacks at -2 D1 if you pay the points for the MIsericordia. All for around 420pts. I like it a lot.
Wow... pretty sure that puts our Dragoons to absolute shame.
Aww don’t say that lol. I just bought some /sad face
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Aaranis wrote: You may as well stop pretending you're playing AdMech at this point Altough I consider the Jetbikes really nice for a fast assault force with Dragoons and Ravenwing.
That actually sounds really cool. If you do that be sure to provide photos. Would like to see em!
Fenris-77 wrote: Yeah, the HQ is base 150. The four bikes would be 19w at T6 2+/5++ dropping 48 bolter shots w/in RF range and pumping out 17 HtH attacks hitting on 2+ re-rolling 1s, and failed wounds on the charge at S6 -3 D3, and another 4 attacks at -2 D1 if you pay the points for the MIsericordia. All for around 420pts. I like it a lot.
If I am evaluating for role, I don't find that too impressive. There are things that remove infantry better, and Dragoons hit harder in melee. I mean, what is the strength of those hits anyway? S6? How am I going to bust tanks with these guys? I mean, I guess the AP-3 is nice, but that's a wash against Daemon Primarchs. Meanwhile, 6 Dragoons with CDI put out an average of 33 S8 AP-1 D2 hits for 408 points, all on top of 36W and natural -1 to hit. They don't care much about toughness or invulnerable saves, but Custodes need to worry about both.
Fenris-77 wrote: Yeah, the HQ is base 150. The four bikes would be 19w at T6 2+/5++ dropping 48 bolter shots w/in RF range and pumping out 17 HtH attacks hitting on 2+ re-rolling 1s, and failed wounds on the charge at S6 -3 D3, and another 4 attacks at -2 D1 if you pay the points for the MIsericordia. All for around 420pts. I like it a lot.
If I am evaluating for role, I don't find that too impressive. There are things that remove infantry better, and Dragoons hit harder in melee. I mean, what is the strength of those hits anyway? S6? How am I going to bust tanks with these guys? I mean, I guess the AP-3 is nice, but that's a wash against Daemon Primarchs. Meanwhile, 6 Dragoons with CDI put out an average of 33 S8 AP-1 D2 hits for 408 points, all on top of 36W and natural -1 to hit. They don't care much about toughness or invulnerable saves, but Custodes need to worry about both.
Dragoons have amazing mathhammer death strikes in melee. But they struggle to deliver that deathstrike due to terrain and being vehicles and not having fly. I have seen them consistently annihilate my opponents front rank of trash units, but then get wasted by something that can bypass their -1 modifier. Celestine and BikerCaptains can fly and can't be shot until your screen is dead. And they move faster. And then ITC made it so every dragoon bomb gives up 4 secondary points. Point for point, dragoons with the +2 to hit strategem are the hardest hitting melee unit in the game. But savvy opponents will make sure that that deathpunch lands on some cultists or some nurglings or some guardsmen, or none at all if they bring dark reapers since dark reapers ignore any modifiers they have.
Another big thing, dragoons can't charge through walls. Celestine and biker captains can use LOS terrain to deny overwatches pretty easily. Dragoons take that overwatch every damned time.
EDIT: think about why every top imperium list at LVO had a blood angels supreme command with a fat stack of jet pack guys (or 2 HQ, 2 Elite, and 3 scouts). Then think why we saw no dragoons in the top 50%. The reason why is that delivery options are what defines the viability of a melee unit. Blood angels can 3d6 charge 1 unit a turn for 2CP out of deep strike. That is amazing. Celestine can move 24" in a turn, that is amazing. Dragoons move 10" and are hardblocked by terrain. They might infiltrate, but not against competitive lists because rangers, scouts, nurglings, and stealth suits will deny your infiltration move. They might deepstrike, but then you are hoping for that 9" and are necessarily ramming into a screen unit.
Dragoons have amazing mathhammer death strikes in melee. But they struggle to deliver that deathstrike due to terrain and being vehicles and not having fly. I have seen them consistently annihilate my opponents front rank of trash units, but then get wasted by something that can bypass their -1 modifier. Celestine and BikerCaptains can fly and can't be shot until your screen is dead. And they move faster. And then ITC made it so every dragoon bomb gives up 4 secondary points. Point for point, dragoons with the +2 to hit strategem are the hardest hitting melee unit in the game. But savvy opponents will make sure that that deathpunch lands on some cultists or some nurglings or some guardsmen, or none at all if they bring dark reapers since dark reapers ignore any modifiers they have.
Another big thing, dragoons can't charge through walls. Celestine and biker captains can use LOS terrain to deny overwatches pretty easily. Dragoons take that overwatch every damned time.
EDIT: think about why every top imperium list at LVO had a blood angels supreme command with a fat stack of jet pack guys (or 2 HQ, 2 Elite, and 3 scouts). Then think why we saw no dragoons in the top 50%. The reason why is that delivery options are what defines the viability of a melee unit. Blood angels can 3d6 charge 1 unit a turn for 2CP out of deep strike. That is amazing. Celestine can move 24" in a turn, that is amazing. Dragoons move 10" and are hardblocked by terrain. They might infiltrate, but not against competitive lists because rangers, scouts, nurglings, and stealth suits will deny your infiltration move. They might deepstrike, but then you are hoping for that 9" and are necessarily ramming into a screen unit.
It's true that piling in around terrain is a nightmare for a unit of 6; you have to get them into CC two ranks deep. It's also true that flying is a huge deal. And that 3D6 charge is insane in any army, flying or not. I think Dragoons are becoming more defensive now than anything given how amazing some charge options have become.
Why would they Gang Busters my Dragoons when my Kastelans are more important to kill and worth more points? Same for the Dark Reapers. I sort of WANT them to shoot my Dragoons over my Kastelans.
The problem is the reapers out range your kastellans and can move way more effectively, ie. with fire and fade stratagems, ynnari shenanigans, transports for alphastrike protection, etc.
All of my games my opponent had gangbusters on my dragoons. They can ignore the kastellans, using terrain to minimize their impact. The dragoons you can't ignore. They will kill stuff, so why not put gangbusters on them? They end up being really easy to kill over the course of the game, since they are gonna engage you anyways.
I actually could see a list where quadrupling down on dragoons would work.
Supreme command Guilliman (for the cp's)
2 Techpriest Enginseers
Greyfax
Brigade (some guard for more CP's and some indirect fire)
Outrider Techpriest
4 Units of 3 dragoons
The above wouldn't give up gangbusters as bad, would have lots of cp's to infiltrate the dragoons and use the CDI stratagem. The problem is the cost of building this list and the fact that other lists can simply do it better.
Fenris-77 wrote: Yeah, the HQ is base 150. The four bikes would be 19w at T6 2+/5++ dropping 48 bolter shots w/in RF range and pumping out 17 HtH attacks hitting on 2+ re-rolling 1s, and failed wounds on the charge at S6 -3 D3, and another 4 attacks at -2 D1 if you pay the points for the MIsericordia. All for around 420pts. I like it a lot.
If I am evaluating for role, I don't find that too impressive. There are things that remove infantry better, and Dragoons hit harder in melee. I mean, what is the strength of those hits anyway? S6? How am I going to bust tanks with these guys? I mean, I guess the AP-3 is nice, but that's a wash against Daemon Primarchs. Meanwhile, 6 Dragoons with CDI put out an average of 33 S8 AP-1 D2 hits for 408 points, all on top of 36W and natural -1 to hit. They don't care much about toughness or invulnerable saves, but Custodes need to worry about both.
I don't really get why you think they'd struggle to ace tanks. On average they come very close to dropping two Leman Russes on the charge on average. That doesn't really spell struggling to me. I hear what you/re saying about the Dragoons not caring about armor and T, but with the reroll to wound it's only really the ++ that matters for Custodes. Weight of attacks will always be better at punching though high ++ saves, obviously, but that's an argument that applies to any comparison where you have less attack with high AP compared to more attacks with lower AP. The Dragoons kick tail in HtH, there's doubt about that, but so so the Bikes, and the two units proved different other advantages and disadvantages. Personally, I might be tempted to take both.
linds14sr20det wrote: All of my games my opponent had gangbusters on my dragoons. They can ignore the kastellans, using terrain to minimize their impact. The dragoons you can't ignore. They will kill stuff, so why not put gangbusters on them? They end up being really easy to kill over the course of the game, since they are gonna engage you anyways.
Really? Not even the Fistelans? That is weird. That being said, knowing when to turn on the Protector Protocol is important. You don't have to do it right away.
Stuff like Gang Busters is really annoying in general. Makes it even more punishing to field multi-wound models. (It's not as if infantry are somehow under-powered right now.) That being said, we are in trouble if we're going to build our lists like that, since everything but Crawlers can be Gang Busted.
I don't really get why you think they'd struggle to ace tanks. On average they come very close to dropping two Leman Russes on the charge on average. That doesn't really spell struggling to me. I hear what you/re saying about the Dragoons not caring about armor and T, but with the reroll to wound it's only really the ++ that matters for Custodes. Weight of attacks will always be better at punching though high ++ saves, obviously, but that's an argument that applies to any comparison where you have less attack with high AP compared to more attacks with lower AP. The Dragoons kick tail in HtH, there's doubt about that, but so so the Bikes, and the two units proved different other advantages and disadvantages. Personally, I might be tempted to take both.
Lemons, sure. They have no invulnerable save.
Eh, skeptical. I think even taking BA Captain + Sanguinary Guard might be better.
kastelen wrote: Why do I normally see fistelans being run with the flamer despite it most likely being on conquerer protocol and the phosphor gun being cheaper?
WYSIWYG, I suppose. It should be the Phosphor IMO.
kastelen wrote: Why do I normally see fistelans being run with the flamer despite it most likely being on conquerer protocol and the phosphor gun being cheaper?
WYSIWYG, I suppose. It should be the Phosphor IMO.
My thought was bs4+ means an average of 1.5 hits on the phosphor. Since they are gonna be up close and personal the average 3.5 hits per combustor would be better. Also overwatch with them can be brutal.
All in all who cares what you arm them with. They are an absolute dumpster fire of a unit.
To sum up: How did LVO affect our competitive list?
Is it still Cawlstar + Guardsman + Basilisks + Celestine or should we be looking for something else?
lash92 wrote: To sum up: How did LVO affect our competitive list?
Is it still Cawlstar + Guardsman + Basilisks + Celestine or should we be looking for something else?
I think we're still waiting to see how hard they will nerf Eldar and Blood Angels before deciding. But I think a lot of the problems we face are structural. =\
I don't think blood angels are getting nerfed. But at the top levels, blood angels are all over imperium lists. More than celestine. That 3d6 dick punch is really something.
lash92 wrote: So what Blood Angels do you suggest to include? (Except the 3 Scout squads)
The basic battallion is Captain with Jumppack, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, cheap HQ (Sanguinary priest of Tech Priest) and 3x 5 scouts.
Give the captain the relic Jumppack to negate overwatch and re-roll charge. Use the stratagem to charge 3d6 if you deployed this turn.
Suzuteo wrote: I really don't see how using a stratagem to charge a single Captain is efficient. Not when we have Wrath of Mars and CDI.
I also can´t see it. He has 4+1 attacks on the charge hitting on 3´s rerolling 1s. Sure he will wound everything on 2+, but he has got just so few attacks to get through invulns...
Also you have to give up your Guard Warlord and I love my CP regain
Why does it mean giving up your guard Warlord? You can buy the relic with a CP.
And ofc you don't charge him in alone. He is there to be backed up by the rest of your army.
If your not interested in combat you have no reason to use Blood Angels and are probably better off with Ravenguard if you want scouts.
You should keep in mind that we are a low-CP army because the detachments are structured in such a way as to reward troops. And we don't emphasize troops
Suzuteo wrote: You should keep in mind that we are a low-CP army because the detachments are structured in such a way as to reward troops. And we don't emphasize troops
This is why my facebook 40k chat friends pushed me away from running a smash captain over celestine. Celestine needs 1CP to get back up every few games. Smash captain can eat 6CP a game if you want to give them.
Ordana wrote: Why does it mean giving up your guard Warlord? You can buy the relic with a CP.
And ofc you don't charge him in alone. He is there to be backed up by the rest of your army.
If your not interested in combat you have no reason to use Blood Angels and are probably better off with Ravenguard if you want scouts.
You can't buy relics for armies that aren't a part of your warlord, at least thats what it says in my IG and Admech codexes. So if you take your IG warlord the blood angels and admechs shouldn't be able to take any relics. Do blood angels get a thing that ignore this rule? If so that's a glass oversight.
Ordana wrote: Why does it mean giving up your guard Warlord? You can buy the relic with a CP.
And ofc you don't charge him in alone. He is there to be backed up by the rest of your army.
If your not interested in combat you have no reason to use Blood Angels and are probably better off with Ravenguard if you want scouts.
You can't buy relics for armies that aren't a part of your warlord, at least thats what it says in my IG and Admech codexes. So if you take your IG warlord the blood angels and admechs shouldn't be able to take any relics. Do blood angels get a thing that ignore this rule? If so that's a glass oversight.
An FAQ for Death Guard said RAI is that you can buy relics for any character as long as you have a detachment of that army.
Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death Guard Character?
A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems.
So I guess the idea is that "you may purchase extra relics for CP" just means you can buy an extra even though you don't get the free one you normally would with the warlord. I mean hey I won't complain, lets me have more options, but I can't help but feel that this is going to open up a lot of potential for abusive shenanigans down the road.
Do any armies besides IG have a relic to recycle command points? With IG kurov's acquilla and the Admech warlord trait Monitor Malevolus you get two 6+ chances to gain command points anytime an opponent uses a strategem. Not much by itself but if other codexes have similar relica you could possibly get some really good odds on refunds if you brought enough. Key trick would be balancing how many points you spent on relics to get a chance at command point refunds.
MrMoustaffa wrote: So I guess the idea is that "you may purchase extra relics for CP" just means you can buy an extra even though you don't get the free one you normally would with the warlord. I mean hey I won't complain, lets me have more options, but I can't help but feel that this is going to open up a lot of potential for abusive shenanigans down the road.
Do any armies besides IG have a relic to recycle command points? With IG kurov's acquilla and the Admech warlord trait Monitor Malevolus you get two 6+ chances to gain command points anytime an opponent uses a strategem. Not much by itself but if other codexes have similar relica you could possibly get some really good odds on refunds if you brought enough. Key trick would be balancing how many points you spent on relics to get a chance at command point refunds.
lash92 wrote: But HB need LOS Why would you worry about positioning? You can put them neatly everywhere, because they don't need LOS.
Ignoring LOS is super clutch. It can even make a super expensive model like a Whirlwind Scorpius dangerous.
lash92 wrote:But HB need LOS Why would you worry about positioning? You can put them neatly everywhere, because they don't need LOS.
Depends on the purpose of the Mortars. If it is to take out assaulters, LOS isn't an issue. If it's to kill things that hide from Kastelans, Basilisks are better due to their unlimited range.
On that note, I wonder if they will FAQ charge rules to say you need LOS. It would certainly stop those insane no-Overwatch 3D6 charges.
Suzuteo wrote: On that note, I wonder if they will FAQ charge rules to say you need LOS. It would certainly stop those insane no-Overwatch 3D6 charges.
Oh yes please, I love the Kool-Aid effect when a unit bursts through a wall screaming "OH YEAAAH" but most of the time I'm on the receiving end :(
So I have been studying Blood Angels and Custodes assault setups a bit. I thought it was amusing, but people have taken to calling the former Smashginius. And that there exists an Iron Hands version that is based on a 7E setup, Smashf***er:
Spoiler:
Iron Hands Battalion - 1048
HQ - 231 Space Marine Captain on Bike - Twin Boltgun, Thunder Hammer, The Shield Eternal, Warlord: Iron Resolve (136)
Chaplain on Bike - Crozius Arcanum, Boltgun (95)
Troop - 165 5x Space Marine Scout - Knives, Bolt Pistol (55)
5x Space Marine Scout - Knives, Bolt Pistol (55)
5x Space Marine Scout - Knives, Bolt Pistol (55)
Elite - 652 Apothecary on Bike - Twin Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword (82)
5x Company Veterans on Bikes - Twin Boltgun, Thunder Hammer, Stormshield (285)
5x Company Veterans on Bikes - Twin Boltgun, Thunder Hammer, Stormshield (285)
Has anyone tried this out? Thoughts? Seems really funny. The Captain has a stat line of M14", WS2+, WS2+, S4, T5, W7, A4, Ld9 and, get this... Sv3+/3++/6+++/6++++
On top of this, the Veterans can all take the bullet for him. (Do they get the Iron Hands 6+ FNP a second time?) And the Apothecary can revive him.
And to top it all off, a Chaplain to reroll fighting. Oh, and a crapton of Bolter shots.
Heavy Support - 540 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, scratch that. If we're doing it this way, we might as well do Dominus and Stygies VIII, since Cawl is not efficient with only 540 points of artillery. Hm...
I dont think anything that wants to be a deathstar is viable if it contains any kind of bike or vehicle with which you cannot step into ruins. Custodes Bikers and/or jump troops are they way to go imo.
Iago40k wrote: I dont think anything that wants to be a deathstar is viable if it contains any kind of bike or vehicle with which you cannot step into ruins. Custodes Bikers and/or jump troops are they way to go imo.
Yeah, I have to admit, Fly is really OP. Has been since the edition dropped, we just didn't see any codex shenanigans until now. Tau is going to be very scary soon. I honestly do think that 2x Icarus Crawler is going to be mandatory, just like it was in the old days of WarCon. (Unless you just didn't want to beat Eldar.)
Yeah Icarus Crawlers are pretty good, I've started to leave the Neutronagers at home entirely.
I don't know if it's just my local meta, but I'm really not facing that many high T targets without an invuln.
And if I do face them, I still have Basilisk, Robots with Mortal Wounds and maybe Plasma Vanguard
lash92 wrote: It really depends on the unit for me.
Things like Robots or Crawlers get magnetized, Infantry mostly not.
I literally know nothing about magnetising but bought a magnetised imperial knight. Thinking of having other magnetised units.
Do you have to keep other magnets attached to them or metal to stop them losing magnetism or can you just keep them in a case?
I magnetized my Crawlers and Knight. I SHOULD have magnetized my Dragoons, but eh. It's a nightmare enough to build and paint them.
For the Crawler though, I have the following magnets:
1/4"x1/8" in the base
Various 1/8"x1/8" in the weapons assembly to swap Neutron and Icarus
12x1mm in the "abdomen" between the chassis and the legs
8x3mm in the area that the abdomen joins to the legs
I highly recommend that the magnets for the assembly in the chassis area be metric in order to properly fit within the recesses. The "sandwich" of plastic between two large magnets is very strong though, though not so strong as to be hard to remove, since the top magnet is very thin.
Ideasweasel wrote: Cool very helpful guys. I’m thinking of a small number of models but magnetised to give options
How do you guys store them when unassembled and not in use? Can the magnets lose magnetism or is that nonsense?
Magnetism is a property of the metal. So a magnet can lose magnetism under two conditions: 1) The metal is transformed by some exchange of energy (extreme heat being the most common) or 2) The Earth loses its magnetic field... but then we'll all be dead, so do not fear.
Ideasweasel wrote: Cool very helpful guys. I’m thinking of a small number of models but magnetised to give options
How do you guys store them when unassembled and not in use? Can the magnets lose magnetism or is that nonsense?
Magnetism is a property of the metal. So a magnet can lose magnetism under two conditions: 1) The metal is transformed by some exchange of energy (extreme heat being the most common) or 2) The Earth loses its magnetic field... but then we'll all be dead, so do not fear.
Ok cool. Mind at ease. I read a long time ago something that was clearly nonsense lol.
Ideasweasel wrote: Slightly off topic but do you guys magnetise your crawlers and other Admech units out of interest?
I didn't do myself but I've got most everything magnetised in my Ad Mech collection and would really recommend it to other people. I really like being able to represent every upgrade properly and my opponent appreciate it as well. When the edition changed I was really glad my Vanguard and Rangers holding special weapons had replaceable heads and my Ironstrider/Dragoons can be either unit. It's a little bit of future-proofing that I don't have with my Ork collection, where I've got a huge amount of duplicate models just so I can represent my list accurately when I play.
Ideasweasel wrote: Slightly off topic but do you guys magnetise your crawlers and other Admech units out of interest?
I didn't do myself but I've got most everything magnetised in my Ad Mech collection and would really recommend it to other people. I really like being able to represent every upgrade properly and my opponent appreciate it as well. When the edition changed I was really glad my Vanguard and Rangers holding special weapons had replaceable heads and my Ironstrider/Dragoons can be either unit. It's a little bit of future-proofing that I don't have with my Ork collection, where I've got a huge amount of duplicate models just so I can represent my list accurately when I play.
Nice, that must be really handy for changing tactics or if a certain unit becomes sub par. Are your dragoons magnetised for the heads as well?
If you ever have photos of your army would love to see them.
Anyone else counting the days till fires...wonder if we will get a sneaky tease in the start of March.
Guys I just went 3-0 at today's tournament with AdMech ...
... and Harlequins in a doubles format. Xenos are such a better compliment than Imperials. So if you're looking to play AdMech competitively try finding a partner.
... and Harlequins in a doubles format. Xenos are such a better compliment than Imperials. So if you're looking to play AdMech competitively try finding a partner.
... and Harlequins in a doubles format. Xenos are such a better compliment than Imperials. So if you're looking to play AdMech competitively try finding a partner.
Well storywise...didn’t Cawl buddy up with a few folks over the pylons? Or was that necrons?
Any bat reps or details of your games, what was you list?
Wasn't Cawl under the influence of a Shadowseer for decades? The Shadowseer would tell him gak and fool him into thinking it was actually his brilliant idea to do whatever? Or am I remembering incorrectly?
Cawl's personal retinue + Ynnari/Harlequins is totally fluff approved now. :p
Ideasweasel wrote: But what does that tell us about guilliman? The fact that he allows it is interesting.
Guilliman comes from the time when the exploration of new ideas was the norm. And I think being a pragmatist, while he does not trust the Xenos, he may recognize degrees of threat. Chaos > Everything (except maybe Nids).
Not sure i would call -1 to hit your units useless. Especially if you are running Dragoons giving them - 2 to hit generally speaking or screening units with -1 to hit can help make your opponent need to put more hits into them. Surely better to just make them all Mars and get 2 canticles a turn rather than no Dogma at all?
List looks fierce to deal with overall though.
Brass eye wrote: Not sure i would call -1 to hit your units useless. Especially if you are running Dragoons giving them - 2 to hit generally speaking or screening units with -1 to hit can help make your opponent need to put more hits into them. Surely better to just make them all Mars and get 2 canticles a turn rather than no Dogma at all?
List looks fierce to deal with overall though.
Okay so the additional -1 to hit is in fact rather useless (or extremely limited if you like) against most shooting threads nowadays (at least in my local meta which is as competitive as it can get). we got dark reapers who dont care about the extra minus 1, dark talons who want to be in 12 inches anyway so l no additional - 1 either. pink horror drops, noise marine drops and oblits are the biggest threads but depending on who got the first turn i can decide where to put my dragoons since I infiltrate them with the stygies stratagem and got enough scouts on the field to outrange those kind of weaponry. Against pure daemon lists, poxwalker spam, blood angels etc it doesnt matter as well. the most against a gunline tyranid army Id say. -1 against AM is already good enough.
Giving Mars to the Dragoons forfeit their purpose since they are either a screening unit for the kastellans, offensive melee on their own, or offensive screen for the shield-captains, depending on who goes first since I ALWAYS infiltrate them.
At the end of the day, if you're playing in an absolute WAAC ITC tournament must absolutely min-max everyday meta, then yeah it makes sense. But I also feel extremely sorry for you, it must get very frustrating and stale.
If that was all I had for my local meta I just wouldn't play.
Brass eye wrote: Not sure i would call -1 to hit your units useless. Especially if you are running Dragoons giving them - 2 to hit generally speaking or screening units with -1 to hit can help make your opponent need to put more hits into them. Surely better to just make them all Mars and get 2 canticles a turn rather than no Dogma at all?
List looks fierce to deal with overall though.
Okay so the additional -1 to hit is in fact rather useless (or extremely limited if you like) against most shooting threads nowadays (at least in my local meta which is as competitive as it can get). we got dark reapers who dont care about the extra minus 1, dark talons who want to be in 12 inches anyway so l no additional - 1 either. pink horror drops, noise marine drops and oblits are the biggest threads but depending on who got the first turn i can decide where to put my dragoons since I infiltrate them with the stygies stratagem and got enough scouts on the field to outrange those kind of weaponry. Against pure daemon lists, poxwalker spam, blood angels etc it doesnt matter as well. the most against a gunline tyranid army Id say. -1 against AM is already good enough.
Giving Mars to the Dragoons forfeit their purpose since they are either a screening unit for the kastellans, offensive melee on their own, or offensive screen for the shield-captains, depending on who goes first since I ALWAYS infiltrate them.
You still want to force those Reapers to attack your Dragoons and not your Kastelans or Crawlers.
Well this is only for tournaments and we have a lot of top tier players in our area so yeah, its WAAC all the way. But dont worry, we have b&b games as well.
The list is for tournaments though and up until now I had good results.
Hell yes. Biker captains instead of celestine. Very interesting. I could almost run that list and I really like that variant. And I also appreciate your commitment to competitive play Iago40k. I have a rundown of my use of the biker captains on sunday:
I played some custodes bikers, 3x as a supreme command versus an ulthwe eldar in a less than competitive planetstrike scenario today. The HQ bikers are more like big tanks. They definitely kill and threaten and tank at a level commensurate with their 160 points, but they need CP to really shine. Because it was planetstrike I had to spend 12CP at the start of the game moving stupid firestorm dice around so that I didn't get tabled turn 1 from stupid mechanics. But if i could have put victors of the blood games down, man, those guys would be trucking it. Their assaults were always good and the hurricane bolters put out a lot of threat.
The big problem of course is the psychic phase. Not sure how best to defend them. But you need something
Cheers wulfey. Yes psychic Phase is still rough but thats what the culexus, inquisitor (wish I could get greyfax into the list...), and spark of divinity is for. I could also switch Rangers and Vanguard from Mars to graia for a 4+ deny. Thats the best i can think of.
The Bikers are extremely good paired with the company commander. Custodes stratagems are insanely good e.g. Stooping dive, drop reserve, etc.. Victor of the blood god is insane But whether i use it or not depends on if i get cps back from putting dragoons and another captain into the drop. Starting the games with 4 cp while needing 3 for the kastellans at least another 3 for the custodes and 1 for the dragoons for +2 to hit is very very risky. Its all about knowing your einen. And keep those captain close to objectives in case you want to Interrupt twice.
1 of the captains is strictly for counter charging stuff that wants to cuddle with my dakkastelans :-)
Remember to base your counter charge captain flush so they can't pile in. That my opponent foolishly was in flush base with my shield captain on the last turn won me the game yesterday. I also really like the third captain in that role.
It doesn't need to be flush; it just needs to be so small as to deny them the ability to stand there; this wiggle space is important, since sometimes, you might have to play model Tetris to fall back some of your units. For non-flyers though, 3" is usually a safe bet.
Flush means the base of your bike is touching, preferabbly 1/2 a millimeter overlapping with the base of another model. If there is even the slightest gap then the other model and 'pile in' and get closer by moving 3" around your bike and tagging something else in combat. For the swooping dive to actually protect your robots you need your bike's base to touching at least 3 of the charging enemy models so they can't possibly move. You can't pile in and get closer if you are already touching.
Flush as in concise. Got it, thanks. And yes thankfully those bikers got delivered with 2 different bases to choose from. Guess which one i am using ^^
Wulfey wrote: Flush means the base of your bike is touching, preferabbly 1/2 a millimeter overlapping with the base of another model. If there is even the slightest gap then the other model and 'pile in' and get closer by moving 3" around your bike and tagging something else in combat. For the swooping dive to actually protect your robots you need your bike's base to touching at least 3 of the charging enemy models so they can't possibly move. You can't pile in and get closer if you are already touching.
The 3" electric slide pile in is one of the most nonsensical bullcrap rules in the game. Putting your base just barely over the enemy's is the one sure fire way to shut it down and protect your robots.
For counter charging i tested the demolition vehicle as well. Worked like a charm but after seeing what the shield captains can do for us there is no turning back. Having 2 of them with the 3++ would be great but again CP heavy. At least i get feel no pain on one if somehow my company commander gets killed ^^
Could someone explain in more detail what is the sorcery with this flushing stuff ? The way I got it, you're overlapping an enemy model's base with your own so that it cannot pile-in, as it is already in maximum contact with your bike ? You're talking about the transparent flying bases ? Otherwise it doesn't seem legal.
Yes, the transparanet flying bases are the bases of the models. The point is that the charging enemy wants to move to 0.5" away from the front rank of models they charge, and then move another 3 bonus inches on pile in an end up within 1" of your robots. This avoids overwatching and counts the robots as being in combat. The counter to this is having a character there so you can heroically intervene or to use the 3CP biker charge (or just their 3" heroic intervention).
When you do the intervention, the key is that the intervening character must have their base flush with the opponent's charging model. That way they can't 'pile in' towards the closest enemy model since they are already flush with with the closest enemy model. This prevents them from getting another 3 bonus inches to get within 1 inch of your robots.
Did something happen in a tournament recently? Because being very very careful on how to position was always clutch. But: doing heroic intervention for kastellans was always pretty difficult since their own bases are so damn big.
The rule in question is how pile-in and consolidation are phrased. You can move any model up to 3" as long as they are CLOSER to the opponent. You can pile-in and consolidate within 1" of enemies that you are not fighting with; this drags them into fighting. However, because you are not charging them, they don't get to overwatch against you. People have come to call this "sliding" into combat.
Putting them base-to-base and telling your opponent that the distance is 0 means they cannot move closer to you, as there is no amount of distance they can move that would put them closer to your model. Therefore, no such "sliding" is possible.
I actually wrote something about this in my Dragoon analysis on the first page. Go check it out.
yeah I know all of this sans calling it "sliding". I just wondered why you guys put an emphasis on this since this is a key mechanic (which I hate btw, I think its way too strong). Of course you are right that we need to block those charging units with something that can go base to base. Hence the swooping dive or intervening captain. (After reading those sentences I want to emphasize that I didnt want to sound arrogant but in written words it kinda does, so sorry for that one^^)
The consolidation/pile-in move is what kills Id say 90% of the Kastellans. There werent really many occasions where someone really charged directly into my bots. Another reason to not use the flamer on them I guess
The interesting thing with the captain is that he comes with 2 bases designs and i really like the "long board" one but damn, he gets so big that you cant put him anywhere with that thing.
Oh I see. But if he's already in base contact with you, he can't slide to another unit so why overlapping the base specifically ? Because measures are taken from the model, as it's a flying model ?
Aaranis wrote: Oh I see. But if he's already in base contact with you, he can't slide to another unit so why overlapping the base specifically ? Because measures are taken from the model, as it's a flying model ?
They mean touching. Your not actually allowed to overlap bases.
Aaranis wrote: Oh I see. But if he's already in base contact with you, he can't slide to another unit so why overlapping the base specifically ? Because measures are taken from the model, as it's a flying model ?
They mean touching. Your not actually allowed to overlap bases.
Me: "I am going to normal move my vanguard because there are no enemy models within 1" of them due to deaths." Opponent: "well I could have piled into your vanguard and prevent them from moving." Me: "No you couldn't have. Your models have their bases literally underneath the clear base of my shield captain." // then I show the 0.5mm overlap i intentionlly had when I piled in my shield captain.
Then I move the vanguard and win the game with their shooting. Now yes, technically bases can't overlap. But I will continue to minorly overlap to keep opponents from trying to pull poop like that.
Aaranis wrote: Oh I see. But if he's already in base contact with you, he can't slide to another unit so why overlapping the base specifically ? Because measures are taken from the model, as it's a flying model ?
measuring from the base, line of sight from the model.
though I always have problems with positioning everything the right way before hand. Most people do know how to avoid Heroic Interventions and in the case with the shield-captain the clue is to avoid getting charged themselves while the robots get charged and there still has to be some room to put the captain.
DId I mention that I hate the close combat movement in this game?
You would still be able to move any models in the second or subsequent rows of the unit anyway. This only affects units in base contact or where you measure to hull and the distance isnt clear.
Incidentally this is yet another rule for Fly to give an unfair advantage to. Whatever extra points flying units supposedly have to pay for their abilities, it isn't enough; Not by a long shot.
So I am attending to a more friendly kind of tournament next week and I want to play some mass infantry with Guardsman and Vanguards.
Which Forgeworld would you recommend? Graia or Metallica? I'm kind of leaning towards Metallica cause their WLT seems more beneficial?
Metallica. Graia doesn't benefit your vanguards if the enemy don't shoot them, and that's unlikely if you have guards. With Metallica vanguards become anoying enought to require some enemy atention. Move 9-10 and shoot that amount of dakka sounds nice, at least to grab objectives. Because at the end of the day the Infantry squads will be the ones who actually menace the enemy.
Talking (again) about our skitarii and AM infantry. With March FAQs and the rumored point increase from 4 to 5 pts for the basic guard, in what kind of position that let us 7/8 pts skitarii?
Zorninsson wrote: Metallica. Graia doesn't benefit your vanguards if the enemy don't shoot them, and that's unlikely if you have guards. With Metallica vanguards become anoying enought to require some enemy atention. Move 9-10 and shoot that amount of dakka sounds nice, at least to grab objectives. Because at the end of the day the Infantry squads will be the ones who actually menace the enemy.
Talking (again) about our skitarii and AM infantry. With March FAQs and the rumored point increase from 4 to 5 pts for the basic guard, in what kind of position that let us 7/8 pts skitarii?
A better one with our global invulnerable saves, 3+ BS and better guns. Vanguard could become the next anti-charge unit, especially with the -1 T aura.
lash92 wrote: So I am attending to a more friendly kind of tournament next week and I want to play some mass infantry with Guardsman and Vanguards.
Which Forgeworld would you recommend? Graia or Metallica? I'm kind of leaning towards Metallica cause their WLT seems more beneficial?
How many points?
Of the two, I prefer Graia for a Skitarii footslogging army. The durability helps, and the ability to shoot in CC is great.
lash92 wrote: So I am attending to a more friendly kind of tournament next week and I want to play some mass infantry with Guardsman and Vanguards.
Which Forgeworld would you recommend? Graia or Metallica? I'm kind of leaning towards Metallica cause their WLT seems more beneficial?
How many points?
Of the two, I prefer Graia for a Skitarii footslogging army. The durability helps, and the ability to shoot in CC is great.
2000 points. But isn't the falling back better, because so all of your units can shoot at your opponent and not only the ones which are tied up?
Zorninsson wrote: Metallica. Graia doesn't benefit your vanguards if the enemy don't shoot them, and that's unlikely if you have guards. With Metallica vanguards become anoying enought to require some enemy atention. Move 9-10 and shoot that amount of dakka sounds nice, at least to grab objectives. Because at the end of the day the Infantry squads will be the ones who actually menace the enemy.
Talking (again) about our skitarii and AM infantry. With March FAQs and the rumored point increase from 4 to 5 pts for the basic guard, in what kind of position that let us 7/8 pts skitarii?
A better one with our global invulnerable saves, 3+ BS and better guns. Vanguard could become the next anti-charge unit, especially with the -1 T aura.
And yet, still terrible. Maybe if we were some form of Fearless. Still just can't see much reason not to run Guard, even at 5pt per dude.
yet another walker? Something between Knight and dragoon which i dont think we need at all.
Literally zero stats on a model are determined by it being bipedal. Or mechanical, for that matter. Let's wait and see how it turns out before we get sassy.
Why not another walker ? If every army had jet packs, flyers, psykers and good CC units this would get old pretty quickly. You chose an army partly because of its theme and aesthetics after all, and AdMech is all about relentless, slowly advancing firepower and atompunk stuff. Now I know they're not rightly translated into rules right now but let's wait for FoC and the March FAQ.
Sadly this flavour stuff I'm talking about is dying in 40k since 8th with the way allies are taken now, so you only see soup everywhere. And I do it moderately myself too.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: And yet, still terrible. Maybe if we were some form of Fearless. Still just can't see much reason not to run Guard, even at 5pt per dude.
At 5ppm for guardsmen, rangers would be about the same firepower and durability for cost, considering range, smaller unit size, armor/morale saves, better guns and higher BS for 2ppm. Wouldn't have as much of a foot print though. They are also notably cheaper MSU, 35 vs 50 points for msu, which makes CP easier to generate. I certainly wouldn't feel the need to use guardsmen at 5ppm, even if they are optimal it's by an extremely small margin.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: And yet, still terrible. Maybe if we were some form of Fearless. Still just can't see much reason not to run Guard, even at 5pt per dude.
At 5ppm for guardsmen, rangers would be about the same firepower and durability for cost, considering range, smaller unit size, armor/morale saves, better guns and higher BS for 2ppm. Wouldn't have as much of a foot print though. They are also notably cheaper MSU, 35 vs 50 points for msu, which makes CP easier to generate. I certainly wouldn't feel the need to use guardsmen at 5ppm, even if they are optimal it's by an extremely small margin.
It is the full package though. The CP recycling Commanders and three cheap squads makes for easy battalions and then you get access to Bassies. So, yeah... even closing the gap, we just don't shine that bright.
I'm just saying, that's not due to infantry squads being way better than ranger squads at 5ppm. If you want to be upset by the relic selection or basilisks vs onagers performance that's a different story.
Honestly, we do not need CP recycling so desperately as to require us to ally in guard at this point. We can field a 12 CP army using three battalions for less than 500 points, and have our own CP recycling trait. It's also really easy to field a brigade if you don't want to bring that many tech priests along (probably a good call, given servitors are marginally more useful and every bit as cheap).
Oh and fearless would be totally pointless for us regardless. We have cheap MSU that only gain a 50% increase in special weapons as squad size doubles. We can be immune to morale and a unit of 10 skitarii would still be outright disadvantageous except possibly in some methods of scoring, and even that trades durability in the scoring sense for CP efficiency and firepower. Given that a unit of 10 IG aren't much more durable than 5 rangers when everything is considered.... yeah I just don't see the logic.
We really don't have room to complain as an army, given we are a well balanced faction.
In my humble opinion the problem is not the external balance but the messy internal balance and lack of options and synergies.
Anyway. Let's imagine the new mini knight.
M12 WS3+ BS3+ S7 T7 W12 A3 L8 S3+
Invulnerable save 5+ against shooting attacks
Can do Heroic Intervention as a character if the friendly unit charged is an Knight of the same House.
Close combat weapon:
Vicious chainsword: Strenght +5 FP-3 D1d6
Stomp: Strenght User FP-1 D1 Special: Do 3 hit rolls for each attack made with this weapon.
Shooting weapon:
Melta blaster: Assault 1D3 Range 24 Strenght 8 FP-4 D1d6 Special: Roll 2 die and take the highest when determine the damage if the target is at half range or closer.
Probably another gun in the same plastic kit but I have no idea.
If anything, they might make Super-Heavy Detachments more viable. The only Knight list I can think of was the one with 3x cheapo Crusaders.
Zorninsson wrote: In my humble opinion the problem is not the external balance but the messy internal balance and lack of options and synergies.
Anyway. Let's imagine the new mini knight.
M12 WS3+ BS3+ S7 T7 W12 A3 L8 S3+
Invulnerable save 5+ against shooting attacks
Can do Heroic Intervention as a character if the friendly unit charged is an Knight of the same House.
Close combat weapon:
Vicious chainsword: Strenght +5 FP-3 D1d6
Stomp: Strenght User FP-1 D1d3 Special: Do 3 hit rolls for each attack made with this weapon.
Shooting weapon:
Melta blaster: Assault 1D3 Range 24 Strenght 8 FP-4 D1d6 Special: Roll 2 die and take the highest when determine the damage if the target is at half range or closer.
Probably another gun in the same plastic kit but I have no idea.
Knights aren't characters unless they are warlords, so no heroic interventions. =(
Hey next week my LGS is hosting a Battle Royale on a new Armageddon-like Mechanicus terrain, with Kill Team rules, so I was wondering what would be nice to use as a list. Restrictions are as follow:
- 200 pts, 15 models max, no stratagems but Dogmas allowed;
- Characters aren't protected from shooting;
- Normal list building restrictions concerning sergeants, special weapons and so forth
There will be around 10 players, turn order will be random, and looots of scenery. I'm thinking about 5 Infiltrators with tasers, they're quite fast, can shoot decently, and hit hard in CC, albeit without any AP. And 2W each makes them appealing for Kill Team. But that's 110 pts, what do I fill the 90 other points with ? Thinking about a bunch of Rangers, one with an arquebus, and why not another with an arc rifle. I'm more tempted by the regular rifles and the arquebus to stay far away.
A blob of 10 metallica vanguard could work so you've got 20 points for upgrades for omnispex or the data tether since the radium carbines are pretty good by themselves as an infantry weapon.
She's just 200 pts so yes, technically you could have Celestine on the table. I doubt she'll last long though, no protections from shooting so every sane player will target her (and I'd do that too). She's not AdMech either
Aaranis wrote: She's just 200 pts so yes, technically you could have Celestine on the table. I doubt she'll last long though, no protections from shooting so every sane player will target her (and I'd do that too). She's not AdMech either
Well yes. I suppose she probably would hehe. Your game sound fun. Good luck and enjoy!
Something that came up last week. In the planetstrike missions you can choose some free buildings. Rangers and Scouts make the perfect stuffing for the free buildings. Last time I Had grounds of 6. Next time groups of 10 with omnispexes. 3+ to hit means they don't really need rerolls and for the points rangers/vanguard are very efficient shooters. The problem was always that they insta die when shot ... but when they are in a plasma obliterator I didn't pay for ...
Aaranis wrote: Hey next week my LGS is hosting a Battle Royale on a new Armageddon-like Mechanicus terrain, with Kill Team rules, so I was wondering what would be nice to use as a list. Restrictions are as follow:
- 200 pts, 15 models max, no stratagems but Dogmas allowed;
- Characters aren't protected from shooting;
- Normal list building restrictions concerning sergeants, special weapons and so forth
There will be around 10 players, turn order will be random, and looots of scenery. I'm thinking about 5 Infiltrators with tasers, they're quite fast, can shoot decently, and hit hard in CC, albeit without any AP. And 2W each makes them appealing for Kill Team. But that's 110 pts, what do I fill the 90 other points with ? Thinking about a bunch of Rangers, one with an arquebus, and why not another with an arc rifle. I'm more tempted by the regular rifles and the arquebus to stay far away.
Shield captain on a dawneagle and a unit of vanguard? Just hide as long as possible and let everyone else take each other out. Then zoom out and mop up!
1) scout
2) dunestrider
3) durable
4) melee good with invu
5) outflank
Then we are again in ground zero of units and options.
Tip: a
ad mech vehicle profile list works v v well for me. So no prob if more striders come along and troops removed . Still we don't have options. Flying unit options or durable melee or scout/ outflank etc. I d prefer an inflitrating unit able to field 1-3 of them with flamers chainsword and melee durable reroll charges.
I am thinking about the following list for my next full competitive 2000 ITC match. I think the meta has shifted such that you really need something that can melee. I am light on anti psyker defense, but Celestine has ways of getting to psykers.
CUSTODES Command
3x160 Biker Captains + 1 Misercordia + 1CP on 3++ RRcharge relic on the misercordia guy
SOUP Battalion
225 for Celestine + Gem
30 for Company commander (5+/5+ WLT + Relic)
2x40 guardsmen squads
1x99 9 man scout squad (my first drop when spaced can deny 6" + 2.4" * 9 + 6" of board area)
The guardsmen are there to deny deepstrike space in my deployment zone. The 1x scout drop can full block a corner of the board from oblits. I have just enough shooting to kill something big every turn, and I have 3x shield caps and Celestine to mess up the mid board. I am super tight on CP and will only get 2x wrath of mars, but that should be enough.
Obliterators are the #1 counter to phosphor robots. They have 24" range. If you place the scouts 9" from your deployment edge in a line, then your opponent can only shoot 6" into your deployment zone.
Oblits 9" Scouts 9" Deployment edge 6" 1 extra inch Robots
This is assuming your are trying to zone their nurglings out from your deployment edge. If they got first drop, then you should put the scouts 15" from your deployment edge and push your robots closer up to your deployment and screen the nurglings with something else in your deployment zone.
lash92 wrote: Optimal unit size for Dragoons? 4 or 6?
I take 5^^ Depends on what else is in your unit. I use them for screening as well and with only 4 it can be quite the challenge to screen everything thats valuable. Now that I take 3 Shield Captains I think I will go with 4 and use a Callidus^^
lash92 wrote: Optimal unit size for Dragoons? 4 or 6?
I take 5^^ Depends on what else is in your unit. I use them for screening as well and with only 4 it can be quite the challenge to screen everything thats valuable. Now that I take 3 Shield Captains I think I will go with 4 and use a Callidus^^
Aren't you concerned to lose some to Morale with a unit that big ? Even with a unit of 3 I almost lost one to Morale the other day, and with that many Ld modifiers flying around I wouldn't risk too much.
lash92 wrote: Optimal unit size for Dragoons? 4 or 6?
I take 5^^ Depends on what else is in your unit. I use them for screening as well and with only 4 it can be quite the challenge to screen everything thats valuable. Now that I take 3 Shield Captains I think I will go with 4 and use a Callidus^^
lash92 wrote: Optimal unit size for Dragoons? 4 or 6?
I take 5^^ Depends on what else is in your unit. I use them for screening as well and with only 4 it can be quite the challenge to screen everything thats valuable. Now that I take 3 Shield Captains I think I will go with 4 and use a Callidus^^
Aren't you concerned to lose some to Morale with a unit that big ? Even with a unit of 3 I almost lost one to Morale the other day, and with that many Ld modifiers flying around I wouldn't risk too much.
Well they are LD8 and have ok durabilty. And if you lose to many then it´s time to burn some CP.
Do they benefit from their own Data-tether? That would make them LD9.
Hmm you're right they benefit from their own Data-tether. I guess if an opponent uses psy or anything else to give malus to the cheap Dragoons that's something the rest of your army is not eating, so it's win-win either way.
lash92 wrote: Optimal unit size for Dragoons? 4 or 6?
I take 5^^ Depends on what else is in your unit. I use them for screening as well and with only 4 it can be quite the challenge to screen everything thats valuable.
Do you really mean Callidus or Culexus?
Lots of people have been talking up the Callidus recently. I guess with the way CP is spent the first turn it can help bleed the opponent.
Btw Any one know how Callidus works with the +5 +5 commander? Can you get more rolls with her ability?
lash92 wrote: Optimal unit size for Dragoons? 4 or 6?
I take 5^^ Depends on what else is in your unit. I use them for screening as well and with only 4 it can be quite the challenge to screen everything thats valuable. Now that I take 3 Shield Captains I think I will go with 4 and use a Callidus^^
lash92 wrote: Optimal unit size for Dragoons? 4 or 6?
I take 5^^ Depends on what else is in your unit. I use them for screening as well and with only 4 it can be quite the challenge to screen everything thats valuable. Now that I take 3 Shield Captains I think I will go with 4 and use a Callidus^^
Aren't you concerned to lose some to Morale with a unit that big ? Even with a unit of 3 I almost lost one to Morale the other day, and with that many Ld modifiers flying around I wouldn't risk too much.
Well they are LD8 and have ok durabilty. And if you lose to many then it´s time to burn some CP.
Do they benefit from their own Data-tether? That would make them LD9.
Yes, a Callidus. I already got a Culexus in my army and the Calidus seems to be a very good addition with all the CP spamming round 1 and their potential first turn charge.
Hey guys, so my FLGS is hosting a beginners 1500 tournament for 40k - no LoW, no Forgeworld stuff.
It's aimed at being a bit of a softer tournament, as an intro to tournaments in 8th, so I'm going to go along as my first foray into tournaments (even if it is 'baby's first tournament' style).My experience so far has really just been games with friends.
This is what I'm thinking of taking, a lot of it revolving around stuff I have built and can get painted within a few weeks - could I get some critique on it?
Spoiler:
Battalion (Stygies)
+HQ+
TPD
-Eradication Ray
- Macrostubber
Enginseer
+Troops+
Rangers x 5 (2 TA)
Rangers x 5 (2 TA)
Vanguard x 7 (2 Plasma)
Vanguard x 7 (2 Plasma)
Vanguard x 7 (2 Plasma)
First match was against some Primaris Crimson fist list with Cullen and Tech marine escort, he got first turn so I inflitarted my Fulgurites and Dragoons on the objectives to start scoring. His dice weren't very co-operative and I managed to wear him down
Cullen eventually killed my knight but then got Neutron Lasered to death, won on VP by some margin thanks to good cards and securing objectives.
Second Match was against Custodes and while I was slowly whittling them down, my dragoons nuked a bike squad and tied up his terminators I wasn't doing enough to make a decent impact
and then they got into melee and it was a lost cause.
Third was Guard and SoB, pretty even match I killed Celestine but she came back and killed my TPD but by then I can won by very close margin of one VP as I had been slowly blasting away at his lines with my Onagers and Balsitarii.
Out of 22 I came 16th, I'm guessing my conceding in the second match probably hurt my position a lot but there was a Admech in 3rd and one between him and me,
The knight did its job, distracting and absorbing damage while hitting fairly hard, my hope of combing the Corpuscarii with the Raiment of the Technomartyr for 4 extra hits instead of 3 never really worked out.
I think I'll edit it by changing to a 20 man blob fulgurites (I'll need to drop a skitarii squad and the corpuscarii to do that) as if I get 1st turn they will kill anything they charge into otherwise they either bubble wrap or harass somewhere
and I'll add some arc rifles and a Plasma Caliver into the skitarii squads to let them hit a bit harder and be less chaff.
I was happy enough, I've never taken the list to a tournament so I was happy to get 2 of 3 wins and that the list worked for the most part.
Suzuteo wrote: @Agamembar
A few tweaks, and you can double your CP. That would probably help a lot.
I had been thinking about trying to get the Brigade detactment for more CP if thats what you mean but I tend to stick to a few specific stratagems,
the Stygies Inflitration to get my Fulgurites and Dragoons up the field, the one that boosts the hit in the fight or shooting phase although I did manage to get infoslave skull off against a deepstriking reaver squad in the first game. Thanks to Monitor warlord trait I wasn't as low on CP as I though I might have.
I think its save to say that Dark Reaper will get nerfed in march and I think its also pretty save to say that there is a new top dog called Flyrant. Winning the Caledonian Uprising with 7 of those monstrosities will not be the last we hear from them. A lot of people in my area play nids and good god they are tough to handle. T7 with a 4++ and that many wounds should not be allowed...question is: How to kill them. Dakkastelans without wrath of mars do nothing against them and even then you need everything you got to kill one of them. If they get -1 to hit for your unit off then it gets even worse.
Dragoons are great way to kill them but they will die to smite and the 4 murlocs that accompany the Flyrants.
The Murlocs are not a problem for everythng that stays in our deployment zone but if we get out we will have a lot of problems since we cant shield every important unit.
And boy is cawl pissing me off! He can easily kill a Murloc alone...and he can fail and not do a single wound So, what can we do?
Iago40k wrote: I think its save to say that Dark Reaper will get nerfed in march and I think its also pretty save to say that there is a new top dog called Flyrant. Winning the Caledonian Uprising with 7 of those monstrosities will not be the last we hear from them. A lot of people in my area play nids and good god they are tough to handle. T7 with a 4++ and that many wounds should not be allowed...question is: How to kill them. Dakkastelans without wrath of mars do nothing against them and even then you need everything you got to kill one of them. If they get -1 to hit for your unit off then it gets even worse.
Dragoons are great way to kill them but they will die to smite and the 4 murlocs that accompany the Flyrants.
The Murlocs are not a problem for everythng that stays in our deployment zone but if we get out we will have a lot of problems since we cant shield every important unit.
And boy is cawl pissing me off! He can easily kill a Murloc alone...and he can fail and not do a single wound So, what can we do?
First of all, I think the Dark Reaper nerf is an indirect buff to our Dragoons, because we can benefit more from our -1/-2 to hit.
Regarding nids: I think mass volume of fire is the way to bring it down.
First thing I was thinking off were Icarus Crawlers, cause they'll be hitting on 2s/3s, problem is the wounding on 4s/5s.
But what's about a bigger unit of Ironstriders? You can pop a CP and will be hitting on 2s, even if he got the -1 and you will easily have enough shots to get through that 4++.
Only problem. I think if we start taking a big units of dragoons and Ironstriders (best in a stygies detachment) it becomes unreasonable to use the Cawlstar.
From the maths I've been doing lately I've concluded that Icarus Arrays were barely able to hold it's ground against a Neutron Laser when firing at a T7 flyer, it's better against light units with the keyword Fly, like jet packs, or Land Speeders, Raiders... Put Protector Imperative and the Neutron Laser is clearly better against T7+. However if the Flyrant have a 4++ that's problematic, the Icarus might be better off due to the number of shots.
It's hard mathhammering Neutron Lasers because of how random it is, you could, with a lot of luck, do 18 damage in one shot, but it's so random it hurts.
Yeah the Average DMG value is really deceptive in this case. Better would be a huge random sample of dice rolls, e.g. 10.000, from which the dmg distribution could be calculated.
Aaranis wrote: From the maths I've been doing lately I've concluded that Icarus Arrays were barely able to hold it's ground against a Neutron Laser when firing at a T7 flyer, it's better against light units with the keyword Fly, like jet packs, or Land Speeders, Raiders... Put Protector Imperative and the Neutron Laser is clearly better against T7+. However if the Flyrant have a 4++ that's problematic, the Icarus might be better off due to the number of shots.
It's hard mathhammering Neutron Lasers because of how random it is, you could, with a lot of luck, do 18 damage in one shot, but it's so random it hurts.
Just point some robots at them. This came up a few pages back and our Wrathbots straight wreck Tyrant spam.
Aaranis wrote: From the maths I've been doing lately I've concluded that Icarus Arrays were barely able to hold it's ground against a Neutron Laser when firing at a T7 flyer, it's better against light units with the keyword Fly, like jet packs, or Land Speeders, Raiders... Put Protector Imperative and the Neutron Laser is clearly better against T7+. However if the Flyrant have a 4++ that's problematic, the Icarus might be better off due to the number of shots.
It's hard mathhammering Neutron Lasers because of how random it is, you could, with a lot of luck, do 18 damage in one shot, but it's so random it hurts.
Just point some robots at them. This came up a few pages back and our Wrathbots straight wreck Tyrant spam.
Yeah true that. Lately I've been dragged to the dark side of AdMech and played Mars with Cawl when playing high stakes games at my shop (we're having a league). Today I played against a Death Guard player at 2500 pts, a very intense game as I grabbed victory on 6th turn with 2 Dragoons killing just the right amount of Plaguebearers to own the objective.
I had 4 Robots, 1 Neutronager, Cawl, 1 Dominus, 3 Kataphron Destroyers with plasma, 6x Vanguards, 5x Vanguards, 6x Rangers with two arc rifes, 6x Rangers with two arquebuses, 3x Dragoons, 1 Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, psyker, in a Taurox Prime with 2 Acolytes and 5 Scions, 1 Deathwatch Captain with jetpack, combi-melta and TH, 5 Vanguard Veterans with TH&SS, and something I wanted to try: 10 Fulgurites in an Imperial Bastion.
With Wrath of Mars on the Robots I managed to kill Mortarion in one go (my opponent was disappointed he played him for the first time), and later a Great Unclean One popped too close to me so I shot him down to 9W before engaging my boosted Dragoons on it, killing it. The 10 Fulgurites worked pretty well, they got out of the Bastion to charge a Daemon Prince and slayed him in one go, later they killed a few Plague Marines, Nurglings and Typhus, so I can safely say they were worth it. They had some help from the Deathwatch Captain too, who always do wonders when I play him. It's refreshing to play something so mobile and hard-hitting from time to time.
I still need to better place my Robots, I screened efficiently against deep strikes at deployment, but when I planted them to kill Mortarion, he changed plans and retreated his army to protect his objectives and so they were out of things to shoot at around turn 4. We had the deployment where you have a third of the table, small side, so it was deeper than I'm used to.
EDIT: How do you fare against Death Guard/Nurgle usually ? For me it's always synonymous of eternal games, as neither side can table the other, and everything is SO TOUGH. They basically reduce my damage by a third and so really mess with my plans. It's always been close games against DG, which is fun in itself, but it's really exhausting.
Aaranis wrote: From the maths I've been doing lately I've concluded that Icarus Arrays were barely able to hold it's ground against a Neutron Laser when firing at a T7 flyer, it's better against light units with the keyword Fly, like jet packs, or Land Speeders, Raiders... Put Protector Imperative and the Neutron Laser is clearly better against T7+. However if the Flyrant have a 4++ that's problematic, the Icarus might be better off due to the number of shots.
It's hard mathhammering Neutron Lasers because of how random it is, you could, with a lot of luck, do 18 damage in one shot, but it's so random it hurts.
Neutron is only better against Icarus against T6+ without an invulnerable save. I honestly do think a lot of people are clinging to Neutron unjustifiably. Icarus has been better than Neutron since Smash Bros arrived on the scene.
Didn't do the maths against a 4++ to be honest, I trust you when you say that, but my own Icarus has never been able to do much in its few uses. Not saying the Neutron was useful every game either, sometimes it only wants to roll 1s to Wound...
Aaranis wrote: From the maths I've been doing lately I've concluded that Icarus Arrays were barely able to hold it's ground against a Neutron Laser when firing at a T7 flyer, it's better against light units with the keyword Fly, like jet packs, or Land Speeders, Raiders... Put Protector Imperative and the Neutron Laser is clearly better against T7+. However if the Flyrant have a 4++ that's problematic, the Icarus might be better off due to the number of shots.
It's hard mathhammering Neutron Lasers because of how random it is, you could, with a lot of luck, do 18 damage in one shot, but it's so random it hurts.
Neutron is only better against Icarus against T6+ without an invulnerable save. I honestly do think a lot of people are clinging to Neutron unjustifiably. Icarus has been better than Neutron since Smash Bros arrived on the scene.
Have you considered using custodes bikes in your current list Suzuteo or are you sticking with your current stock.
That is assuming work has allowed you to get a game in
That is assuming work has allowed you to get a game in
That's not even the start of it. I would have to buy Custodes bikes, build them, paint them... sigh.
Are they good though? I hesitate because of the point cost. I feel like I can get more Dragoons or even a solid unit of Marines in.
Aaranis wrote: Didn't do the maths against a 4++ to be honest, I trust you when you say that, but my own Icarus has never been able to do much in its few uses. Not saying the Neutron was useful every game either, sometimes it only wants to roll 1s to Wound...
To be brutally honest, the only reason why a pair of Icarus remain in most lists is for the Spearhead; they are not so great against the current meta. If you want to do Soup, bringing just a unit of 5-6x Mars Kastelans will work.
In the current meta at my LGS (I never play anywhere else) which is starting to get borderline competitive (which means solid but somewhat themed lists) my Neutron Laser gets more work done than the Icarus, I sadly rarely face flying infantry and such, so I never have the right targets.
HQ - 231 Space Marine Captain on Bike - Twin Boltgun, Thunder Hammer, The Shield Eternal, Warlord: Iron Resolve (136)
Chaplain on Bike - Crozius Arcanum, Boltgun (95)
HQ - 231 Space Marine Captain on Bike - Twin Boltgun, Thunder Hammer, The Shield Eternal, Warlord: Iron Resolve (136)
Chaplain on Bike - Crozius Arcanum, Boltgun (95)
Just want to let you know Suzuteo, company bikers veterans are currently trash. They are waaaaay too expensive for their statline and since they're an index entry their price will never change.
Looks interesting. And iron hands allies seems quite fluffy. If you can’t squeeze him in would you go the monitor malevelous route?
Nah. I need the Captain to be the Warlord for yet another 6+ save. I guess for this one, I have to rely on the 9 CP.
ultimentra wrote: Just want to let you know Suzuteo, company bikers veterans are currently trash. They are waaaaay too expensive for their statline and since they're an index entry their price will never change.
I noticed. Haha. But their real purpose is to act as extra Wounds for the Captain. It's the old Smashf***er build.
Wrathbots are NOT the answer to Tyrant spam. On average you need 3 bots sitting with WoM to kill one Flyrant. There are 6 more and 3 to 4 Murlocs. So no, Dakkastelans are not enough.Dragoosn are way better yet still one have to get more than one or even two into melee.
Shield Captains on Dawn Eagle are a great help. When playing nids I use mine to combo them with vangaurd and going melee with murlocs. One of them is usually enough to kill a murloc. against flyrants though...well, they are pretty much the equivalent of a flyrant but a little worse. I stick to my three shield captains, they are what AdMech needs. great melee, fly, character, charge block capability...just wow
Iago40k wrote: Wrathbots are NOT the answer to Tyrant spam. On average you need 3 bots sitting with WoM to kill one Flyrant. There are 6 more and 3 to 4 Murlocs. So no, Dakkastelans are not enough.Dragoosn are way better yet still one have to get more than one or even two into melee.
Shield Captains on Dawn Eagle are a great help. When playing nids I use mine to combo them with vangaurd and going melee with murlocs. One of them is usually enough to kill a murloc. against flyrants though...well, they are pretty much the equivalent of a flyrant but a little worse. I stick to my three shield captains, they are what AdMech needs. great melee, fly, character, charge block capability...just wow
Two Wrathbots will do one Flyrant. Out of the gate, the two do 4 mortal wounds on average, while the shots themselves do about 9 wounds through the 5++. So six will nuke a trio a turn in Protector mode. Unsurprisingly, this amount of damage is about the same they would do to a Mawloc, because it has the 5+ save and T6, but 12 wounds. We are doing ~13 on average rolls (with Cawl). Meaning that if they don't get all their stuff to our Robots by T3, they have nothing left on the table by T4, since all those MCs are pretty much the whole army.
That is not counting our Dragoons, Neutronagers, and/or any Guard elements. You toss in Bassies and Neutronagers and they are absolutely wrecked.
Essentially, it becomes a deployment game to buy those robots enough time to do their job... so, SOP.
So I'm building a primarily Custodes force, but I'm looking for allies. Do you all think AdMech would be a good compliment? I'm looking for my ally to add: 1. CP. 2. Long-range anti-tank.
So a cheap Battalion with either Dakkabots or Neutron Onagers is where my mind went first. My meta is competitive so the -1 from Stygies might be too much to give up for Cawl.
Any advice would be great! Aiming for 2k points total with 500-800 allocated to an ally.
Wow. I was going off the Index. Good to see they got a buff they pretty much didn't need.
SO! We do 4 mortal wounds and 5 or 6 wounds. Really, it is still pretty much dead. And that is just two robots. Again, we have a lot of other firepower that can try to chip off those last few wounds.
Wow I played a 1500 pts game against T'au yesterday, and oh did it hurt. I'm still somewhat traumatized. So this guys only has a few games in of 8th but has played many times in previous editions. I plan a game with him, he tells me he's playing T'au, so i tell him I play AdMech, and I quickly write a 1500 pts list with Stygies, nothing too harsh. I even threw a CC relic on one of my Domini. I had:
- 2x Domini, one Warlord with Monitor Malevolus and the other with the Cog Mother or something
- 6x Vanguards
- 5x Vanguards
- 6x Rangers, 2 Arc Rifles
- 6x Rangers, 2 Arquebuses
- 3x Dragoons
- 10 Fulgurites
- 5 Infiltrators
- Datasmith
- 2x Kastelan Robots
- 1x Neutronager
- 1x Icarus Onager
Playing Maelstrom, on 4 terrain plates, got the "Seek & Destroy" deployment and he got first turn. He played something along these lines:
- Supreme Command with 3x Commanders, all Fusion
- Battalion with 1 Coldstar Commander, another regular Commander with full Burst Cannons, 3x 5 Strike Teams, 2 Marksmen
- Vanguard with 3x 3 Crisis, full Burst Cannons
And of course a little army of Combat Drones with each suit.
So pretty much a tourney list straight from the net, toned down a little. I tried infiltrating my Fulgurites near his deployment zone to put pressure on him but of course I lost first turn so they just got thrashed, all my Rangers and Vanguards were almost wiped save for the backline Arquebuses, two of my Dragoons got Fusionned to death and the last one tried a charge before going down in Overwatch.
My turn, I pop the Infiltrators behind the Coldstar Commander, whisper "Omae wa mou shindeiru" and kill him on the charge, tying up 3 Crisis in the same move and marking 6 points in a single turn with that move. I popped the Binharic Override on the Robots because hell was about to go down and killed some Drones and a Crisis if I remember well. My Neutronager was totally useless because with the way Saviour Protocols work, even if you do 6D it's only a single MW is traded for the regular Wound, so I was quite displeased that T'au players dare complain when half their army is untargetable Fusion-death-suits. Icarus did wonders however and really did some damage thanks to good rolls.
After that everything really goes downhill, I lose a Robot, a Dominus who failed his 6" charge, the rest of my infantry except for the Snipers who held on until the end, then I manage to kill another commander but it's not enough, he kills the rest of my artillery, the Infiltrators, I manage to glory shot another commander with the Ranger Alpha but that's all I can do now.
So my mistakes, first was to not ask him outright what kind of list he wanted us to play, even though I suspect I would've answer "a fun list" with his own idea of a fun list. Second was Infiltrating the Priests, this stuff never works, at least not on a table that small. Third was screening with the Dragoons, although with the range of the Fusion Blasters he would've killed them still. But even looking back, there was no way I wasn't getting shot to death before such shooting saturation. Not with this list.
It makes me bitter because although I didn't care for the rankings in my league, I probably dropped a lot of places while this guy was last. Also bitter to have faced a tourney list without warning of course.
Aaranis wrote: Playing Maelstrom, on 4 terrain plates, got the "Seek & Destroy" deployment and he got first turn. He played something along these lines:
- Supreme Command with 3x Commanders, all Fusion
- Battalion with 1 Coldstar Commander, another regular Commander with full Burst Cannons, 3x 5 Strike Teams, 2 Marksmen
- Vanguard with 3x 3 Crisis, full Burst Cannons
And of course a little army of Combat Drones with each suit.
Against this sort of Tau list, your best bet is to castle. That is, move your Kastelans into a good position, ball your models around them, and force them to come to you.
Don't worry about your Dragoons dying. In fact, I would make them a part of the wall. They have to come within 18" to shoot your Robots, which means you just move and charge them to death the next turn.
It's also yet another reason why I think we should always bring Icarus Crawlers. Neutron Crawlers are not useful in a meta with Dark Reapers. (Especially if you bring Earthshakers, which you should.)
Suzuteo wrote: Against this sort of Tau list, your best bet is to castle. That is, move your Kastelans into a good position, ball your models around them, and force them to come to you.
Don't worry about your Dragoons dying. In fact, I would make them a part of the wall. They have to come within 18" to shoot your Robots, which means you just move and charge them to death the next turn.
It's also yet another reason why I think we should always bring Icarus Crawlers. Neutron Crawlers are not useful in a meta with Dark Reapers. (Especially if you bring Earthshakers, which you should.)
The thing is, I didn't know his list, and never faced that before. My Robots felt useless as each time I wanted to target a Commander (which were the main danger) there were two stupid drones in front of it that prevented targeting, and on first/second turn he killed all my infantry, which left me no regular cheap guns to shoot at the Drones to destroy the screen. So the Robots killed some Crisis, their Drones, and 2x5 Fire Warriors all in all.
I don't usually play competitive lists (so, Cawl + 4 bots minimum) unless we specifically agreed to with my opponent, because he wants to try a strong list of his. Otherwise I don't fancy sitting back on my deployment zone, as most of the time the objectives imply running around the board. I like gunlines, but not just that, I fancy jet pack infantry, bikes and the likes, which is why I always bring 3 Dragoons now (far too efficient) and why I'm going to try soon a 2000 pts list made of a Stygies VIII Bataillon and a Dark Angels Bataillon. Not pretending to be competitive but it should give me a breath of fresh air with my army.
Next time I face this T'au player I'm definitely using the meanest list I can build though.
Aaranis wrote: The thing is, I didn't know his list, and never faced that before. My Robots felt useless as each time I wanted to target a Commander (which were the main danger) there were two stupid drones in front of it that prevented targeting, and on first/second turn he killed all my infantry, which left me no regular cheap guns to shoot at the Drones to destroy the screen. So the Robots killed some Crisis, their Drones, and 2x5 Fire Warriors all in all.
I don't usually play competitive lists (so, Cawl + 4 bots minimum) unless we specifically agreed to with my opponent, because he wants to try a strong list of his. Otherwise I don't fancy sitting back on my deployment zone, as most of the time the objectives imply running around the board. I like gunlines, but not just that, I fancy jet pack infantry, bikes and the likes, which is why I always bring 3 Dragoons now (far too efficient) and why I'm going to try soon a 2000 pts list made of a Stygies VIII Bataillon and a Dark Angels Bataillon. Not pretending to be competitive but it should give me a breath of fresh air with my army.
Next time I face this T'au player I'm definitely using the meanest list I can build though.
Don't stay in your deployment against Tau. There's no way you are going to keep them out of attack range with how ridiculously mobile they are. There's also no way you are going to outplay them on the board. So your primary goal is actually to try to get as many objectives in that 36" bubble as you can and force them into a decisive shooting battle. This is the sort of confrontation where their mobility doesn't really make a difference. As long as you keep their suits from being able to CC the Robots and the dice aren't terrible, you will probably win it.
My list these days looks much the same as before, only I decided to commit to melee Scouts. (Waiting for the bits in the mail.) And my Cadian Spearhead is now a Custom MT Spearhead. So the army basically has many more fighting and close quarters shooting assets.
Spoiler:
Imperium Battalion Detachment - 215
HQ - 60 1x Company Commander - Laspistol, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist
1x Company Commander - Laspistol, Chainsword, Kurov's Aquila
Heavy Support - 324 1x Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter
1x Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter
1x Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter
Mars Spearhead Detachment - 1322
HQ - 240 1x Belisarius Cawl
Heavy Support - 810 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
5x Kastelan Robots - 3x Heavy Phosphor Blasters
Fast Attack - 272 4x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
Ideasweasel wrote: Has anyone had any joy with either Sicarian Infiltrators or Fulgurite Electro-Priests?
I would love a squad of 20 priests but imagine they get obliterated before they can see any action.
If you take Priests I would take them as Stygies for the infiltration. But it´s a huge gamble. If you get first turn then great, if not you are screwed. (You could infiltrate them out of LOS, but then you still need to get them into combat.
I haven´t tested Infiltrators very much tbh, but I am for some time toying with the idea of a 10 men mars squad, for some mortal wounds. Had anyone success using them in this way?
Ideasweasel wrote: Has anyone had any joy with either Sicarian Infiltrators or Fulgurite Electro-Priests?
I would love a squad of 20 priests but imagine they get obliterated before they can see any action.
If you take Priests I would take them as Stygies for the infiltration. But it´s a huge gamble. If you get first turn then great, if not you are screwed. (You could infiltrate them out of LOS, but then you still need to get them into combat.
I haven´t tested Infiltrators very much tbh, but I am for some time toying with the idea of a 10 men mars squad, for some mortal wounds. Had anyone success using them in this way?
Nope. Aweful. Bang for Buck they suck. They can drop yes but thats it. Both shooting attacks are not great even if you use Wrath of Mars (since I doubt Cawl will be anywhere near) you are looking at roughly 6 mortal wounds. But you can kiss your Infiltrators goodbye as soon as the opponent looks at them. t3 with a 4+ save is just not worth it. I tested them a lot and they were never more than a dissapointment. And knowing that Tau is on their way makes them even less of a consideration.
If you want to chuck some Command Points at them, use protector doctrina and wrath of mars in the shooting phase, then if they make their 9" charge use conqueror doctrinas.
A block of 10 infiltrators will do 50 shots hitting on 2's. Ideally you have the reroll 1's canticle up as well but let's say you don't...
50 shots = 41.7 hits
S3 is the problem... so likely to need 5s or 6s to wound with an additional mortal wound on a 6. For a T6 or above target you're doing 6.9 wounds + 6.9 mortal wounds
They would be pretty damn good against Adeptus Custodes. Custodes are mostly T5 so wound on a 5 rather than a 6. Mortals to ignore their 2+/4++
Could kill a squad of custodes or a shield captain with reasonable rolls. Plus all the CPs in the world.
If you make the charge you can spend another CP (!) on conqueror doctrina so they are hitting on 2's and doing 3 hits on a 5 or 6.
Strength 6 but no AP is a bummer.
Then the next turn your opponent says "feth those guys in particular" and you realise they are T3.
You know, the alternate loadout is... Pistol 3 instead of Pistol 5... but S4 shots...
Attacking the same T6 target
30 shots hitting on 2's = 25 hits
wounding on 5's now = 8.33 wounds + 4.2 mortals.
Then in combat they are S4 AP-3
Worse, really... it's the inital blast of 7 or so mortal wounds you want.
Ideasweasel wrote: Has anyone had any joy with either Sicarian Infiltrators or Fulgurite Electro-Priests?
I would love a squad of 20 priests but imagine they get obliterated before they can see any action.
If you take Priests I would take them as Stygies for the infiltration. But it´s a huge gamble. If you get first turn then great, if not you are screwed. (You could infiltrate them out of LOS, but then you still need to get them into combat.
I haven´t tested Infiltrators very much tbh, but I am for some time toying with the idea of a 10 men mars squad, for some mortal wounds. Had anyone success using them in this way?
Would Lucius not be better for guaranteed deep strike?
If you want to chuck some Command Points at them, use protector doctrina and wrath of mars in the shooting phase, then if they make their 9" charge use conqueror doctrinas.
A block of 10 infiltrators will do 50 shots hitting on 2's. Ideally you have the reroll 1's canticle up as well but let's say you don't...
50 shots = 41.7 hits
S3 is the problem... so likely to need 5s or 6s to wound with an additional mortal wound on a 6. For a T6 or above target you're doing 6.9 wounds + 6.9 mortal wounds
They would be pretty damn good against Adeptus Custodes. Custodes are mostly T5 so wound on a 5 rather than a 6. Mortals to ignore their 2+/4++
Could kill a squad of custodes or a shield captain with reasonable rolls. Plus all the CPs in the world.
If you make the charge you can spend another CP (!) on conqueror doctrina so they are hitting on 2's and doing 3 hits on a 5 or 6.
Strength 6 but no AP is a bummer.
Then the next turn your opponent says "feth those guys in particular" and you realise they are T3.
You know, the alternate loadout is... Pistol 3 instead of Pistol 5... but S4 shots...
Attacking the same T6 target
30 shots hitting on 2's = 25 hits
wounding on 5's now = 8.33 wounds + 4.2 mortals.
Then in combat they are S4 AP-3
Worse, really... it's the inital blast of 7 or so mortal wounds you want.
I just love the models. They look so cool. Shame they aren’t as good as they could be
Fulgurite Electro-Priests are among our most efficient units, they're more efficient than Kastelans with WoM against TEQ, are the cheapest way to deal with Primaris-like statlines, and big tough infantry up to T5. Didn't run the numbers above that, but remember they can go to S6 for a turn with the right canticle. The difficulty is having them charge their target, no transports is trashy, and everytime I tried using Stygies Infiltration to hide something I never had 1st turn and my infiltrated unit gets butchered. If I have to infiltrate them far enough from the opponent, what's the point of paying a CP for that ?
Lately I've tried 10 in a Bastion on my flank against Death Guard. I'd have taken a Bunker, but didn't have the model at the store so I went for the vanilla Bastion with 4x HB. Well when he approached a Daemon Prince nearby I did the 9" move while exiting the Bastion, charged, and massacred the Prince in one go. Now boosted, they proceeded to make a mess out of some Plague Marines, Poxwalkers and later Typhus, helped all along by a Watch Master with jetpack and TH. They died gloriously in T5 against these OP Nurgle fly riders. Now I try to include 10 Fulgurites wherever I feel it, but they really need the Bunker to be protected and react quickly to counter-charge. That ups their point cost for sure, but when played right you make these points back easily.
Also, did the maths on the Infiltrators and concluded that the Power Sword + Stubbers set was only better against high save targets (as expected), and not by much. The Stubber is worse than the Flechette Blaster in every possible scenario, and can't be fired in CC. This alone drags down the efficiency of the Power Sword. Infiltrators should never go hitting something that gives -1 to Hit in CC though, this will completely mess up their results with the Taser.
On a less grim note. I finally finished shading my Robots:
From left to right: Fear, Happiness, Surprise, Anger, Sadness, Disgust
I used Dunecrawler sensor arrays for the face (a cheaper solution than buying new heads) and clipped the left Phosphor gun and attached it to the right side. I also removed the guide tabs in the joints. This allows me to increase the range of poses they could take; posing is not only about range of motion, but also the ability to assume body language. (I had six Robots, so I posed them in the manner of the six emotions.)
Hm. Darn, my focus is off. My phone camera really sucks. =(
Suzuteo wrote:On a less grim note. I finally finished shading my Robots:
From left to right: Fear, Happiness, Surprise, Anger, Sadness, Disgust
I used Dunecrawler sensor arrays for the face (a cheaper solution than buying new heads) and clipped the left Phosphor gun and attached it to the right side. I also removed the guide tabs in the joints. This allows me to increase the range of poses they could take; posing is not only about range of motion, but also the ability to assume body language. (I had six Robots, so I posed them in the manner of the six emotions.)
Hm. Darn, my focus is off. My phone camera really sucks. =(
Looking good ! I thought about using a fist and a gun in the other hand too, but I'm too much about WYSIWYG to do that for real. I just need a good profile for the Fists to finally equip them :(
PiñaColada wrote:
Aaranis wrote: ....... The Stubber is worse than the Flechette Blaster in every possible scenario, and can't be fired in CC.
The stubcarbines are pistol 18" so why can't they be fired in CC?
Where does it say that? In the codex they're written as pistol 3 and I can't see it changed in the FAQ, what am I missing?
Oops my bad, I was actually stuck in the past. I was convinced they kept it as Assault, you're right.
This doesn't change the fact that Flechette Blasters are better, even against MEQ. 1,85 wounds for the blaster VS 1,67 wounds for the stubber. And you have 5,56 W against GEQ for the blaster, VS 4,44 for the stubber.
The stubber/power sword loadout should be cheaper.
Hmm while writing the maths I figured that the results weren't as bad as I remembered, although the Blaster & Taser still does more on average, and can potentially do even more with Conqueror Imperative. Oh well that'll learn me to post before checking hopefully
Aaranis wrote: Looking good ! I thought about using a fist and a gun in the other hand too, but I'm too much about WYSIWYG to do that for real. I just need a good profile for the Fists to finally equip them :(
If you look closely, the gun fist is doubly linked.
I just find the extra 6" range to be really practical. The 12" guns will often have to fire into the same unit you're charging, potentially adding to the charge range whereas the stubcarbines have an easier time finding another target. So in my opinion, that sort of evens them out. The flechette blasters look cooler though (and size-wise they could actually pass for pistols, unlike the stubcarbines)
Aaranis wrote: Fulgurite Electro-Priests are among our most efficient units, they're more efficient than Kastelans with WoM against TEQ, are the cheapest way to deal with Primaris-like statlines, and big tough infantry up to T5. Didn't run the numbers above that, but remember they can go to S6 for a turn with the right canticle. The difficulty is having them charge their target, no transports is trashy, and everytime I tried using Stygies Infiltration to hide something I never had 1st turn and my infiltrated unit gets butchered. If I have to infiltrate them far enough from the opponent, what's the point of paying a CP for that ?
Lately I've tried 10 in a Bastion on my flank against Death Guard. I'd have taken a Bunker, but didn't have the model at the store so I went for the vanilla Bastion with 4x HB. Well when he approached a Daemon Prince nearby I did the 9" move while exiting the Bastion, charged, and massacred the Prince in one go. Now boosted, they proceeded to make a mess out of some Plague Marines, Poxwalkers and later Typhus, helped all along by a Watch Master with jetpack and TH. They died gloriously in T5 against these OP Nurgle fly riders. Now I try to include 10 Fulgurites wherever I feel it, but they really need the Bunker to be protected and react quickly to counter-charge. That ups their point cost for sure, but when played right you make these points back easily.
Also, did the maths on the Infiltrators and concluded that the Power Sword + Stubbers set was only better against high save targets (as expected), and not by much. The Stubber is worse than the Flechette Blaster in every possible scenario, and can't be fired in CC. This alone drags down the efficiency of the Power Sword. Infiltrators should never go hitting something that gives -1 to Hit in CC though, this will completely mess up their results with the Taser.
Cool, I hadn’t considered sticking them inside.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Suzuteo wrote: On a less grim note. I finally finished shading my Robots:
From left to right: Fear, Happiness, Surprise, Anger, Sadness, Disgust
I used Dunecrawler sensor arrays for the face (a cheaper solution than buying new heads) and clipped the left Phosphor gun and attached it to the right side. I also removed the guide tabs in the joints. This allows me to increase the range of poses they could take; posing is not only about range of motion, but also the ability to assume body language. (I had six Robots, so I posed them in the manner of the six emotions.)
Hm. Darn, my focus is off. My phone camera really sucks. =(
Those poses are awesome!
Which one doesn’t make the cut when you roll with 5 though....
Lately I've tried 10 in a Bastion on my flank against Death Guard. I'd have taken a Bunker, but didn't have the model at the store so I went for the vanilla Bastion with 4x HB. Well when he approached a Daemon Prince nearby I did the 9" move while exiting the Bastion, charged, and massacred the Prince in one go. Now boosted, they proceeded to make a mess out of some Plague Marines, Poxwalkers and later Typhus, helped all along by a Watch Master with jetpack and TH. They died gloriously in T5 against these OP Nurgle fly riders. Now I try to include 10 Fulgurites wherever I feel it, but they really need the Bunker to be protected and react quickly to counter-charge. That ups their point cost for sure, but when played right you make these points back easily.
I've posted about this before and I'm glad other people are having success with it. A bunker near your Cawlstar with fulgurites is actually pretty deadly. People reeeeaaalllly want to get in combat with your Kastelans and can get a nasty surprise when they get close.
The problem with it is... you can only take 3 detachments in most game styles... and the flippin' building takes 1 of those 3! So unless you habitually only take 2 detachments, it really causes list problems.
Awesome fun to do on the table though - particularly when your opponent forgets the bunker isn't a piece of store scenery and casually waltzes up to it.
Lately I've tried 10 in a Bastion on my flank against Death Guard. I'd have taken a Bunker, but didn't have the model at the store so I went for the vanilla Bastion with 4x HB. Well when he approached a Daemon Prince nearby I did the 9" move while exiting the Bastion, charged, and massacred the Prince in one go. Now boosted, they proceeded to make a mess out of some Plague Marines, Poxwalkers and later Typhus, helped all along by a Watch Master with jetpack and TH. They died gloriously in T5 against these OP Nurgle fly riders. Now I try to include 10 Fulgurites wherever I feel it, but they really need the Bunker to be protected and react quickly to counter-charge. That ups their point cost for sure, but when played right you make these points back easily.
I've posted about this before and I'm glad other people are having success with it. A bunker near your Cawlstar with fulgurites is actually pretty deadly. People reeeeaaalllly want to get in combat with your Kastelans and can get a nasty surprise when they get close.
The problem with it is... you can only take 3 detachments in most game styles... and the flippin' building takes 1 of those 3! So unless you habitually only take 2 detachments, it really causes list problems.
Awesome fun to do on the table though - particularly when your opponent forgets the bunker isn't a piece of store scenery and casually waltzes up to it.
Yeah, Fulgurites will totally have top priority if we ever get a transport. The bunker is a nice distraction, as it will take many shots to bring it down, and if he locks him in CC somehow you just shoot the guys.
Speaking of Fulgurites, they should lower the cost of their "fight twice" stratageme so as that it costs 2CP for 10 models or less, and 3CP for more models in a single unit. We legit don't have reasons to have a 20-man unit without a bastion to place them in, as they'll get shot down to half-strength easily when deployed regularly, and then lose the other half on morale. Or make them fearless, I don't know, they were Zealots in 7th and that was very fluffy.
Hmm I don't have the models but now trying to fit 20 Priests in a Bastion is tempting. If only they weren't so ugly and hard to paint, highlighting the skin is the worst.
They ARE hard to paint! I was excited to paint them but they take ages with all the gold bits and leather and blue flesh. To be honest I bailed out of mine when they were at "yeah that's plenty good enough" standard.
The fight twice one is powerful due to the thing you can do where you don't fight but consolidate and pile in for an extra 6" move. Ideally these are our bloodletters.
My worry for Fires of Cyraxus is that we will get 2 or 3 transports which will be super exciting... we can finally make it to combat! We will get the Karacnos assault tank, the macrocarid explorator and the Triaros Armoured Conveyor.
The Omnissiah will rejoice.
Briefly.
For they will all be between 250 and 500 points and be almost completely impractical to take.
And more than 100€/piece, in FW resin, and will get FAQ'd to death if people complain they're too powerful.
Nah it's alright if I want to use transports, I still have an army of Drukhari in the making, here's to hoping their codex will be on par with the others, and that they don't boost T'au to insane levels.
GW should have faction representatives. So we can write in our list of concerns. Like old ladies writing to their local politician about stuff. Hehe.
Still you never know. It might not be all doom and gloom.
Is there also not a small glimmer of hope that some plastic GW Admech transports might be in the pipeline? scheduled sometime after plastic aspect warriors but before sisters?
I got my Scout bits in the mail, and they are coming along nicely; I am kitbashing them with Skitarii Vanguard heads and legs (have to sculpt the flat bits).
But I have a question: What base size should I be using?
Scouts seem to still come with 25mm bases, but all of the power armor is being rereleased with 32mm bases. And while I prefer not to MFA, I cannot deny that having an extra 40mm per unit is useful. Plus, the models look much more appropriately sized on 32mm bases.
kastelen wrote: Could the comparison between the kataphoron destroyer and T'au drone in the regimental standard mean that FoC is closer than we thought?
kastelen wrote: Could the comparison between the kataphoron destroyer and T'au drone in the regimental standard mean that FoC is closer than we thought?
Suzuteo wrote: Anyone know if Scouts have to be 25mm or can we use 32mm like other Space Marines?
Im not sure Suzuteo. I think the dunecrawlers look better without bases, but imagine if you played in tournaments etc you would have to stick some on. Would people prefer you to use bigger bases? I guess for non melee units people probably would not be opposed to bigger bases, but for melee they might prefer smaller. Just in case they think your going for a cheeky advantage. Could you model them on 25 but they make up the bigger bases to clip underneath? Like a tiered plateau effect? Could that look cool and give you options in the event people moan? That way your covered for either option maybe
Stratagems and forge world traits. An additional chance for shourdspalm with wrathbots or a -1 to hit with infiltrating electro priests is great. Having to dump points into another detachment isn't worth it unless it's guard.
Well I'm thinking inquisitor and 3 assassins: cullexus, callidus and either eversor for fun or another cullexus. Assassins are amazing. That has been proven by top finishes in major tournaments. And inquisitor can somewhat help with morale issues on top of denying
rvd1ofakind wrote: Well I'm thinking inquisitor and 3 assassins: cullexus, callidus and either eversor for fun or another cullexus. Assassins are amazing. That has been proven by top finishes in major tournaments. And inquisitor can somewhat help with morale issues on top of denying
Yeah Assassins are great, except the Vindicare (sadly because it's a great looking model).
Regarding Primaris Psyker vs Inquisitor: I think that can have different reasons, depending on your army composition you could have problems including them without loosing chapter tactic equivalents. Also you have to pay for some goodies before your inquisitor gets usable in melee, while the Primaris with his staff isn't that bad to begin with.
But I really like the LD bubble, so I started tubing Greyfax. (But I also run my force pretty infantry heavy, so I really benefit from it).
I've talked about Inquisitors before, the psychic power to prevent Overwatch is a reason to take it all by itself. It boosts morale and can ride in any transport he wants.
I built one to use as an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, he's accompanied by two Acolytes, one with bolt pistol/chainsword and the other with the same + flamer. They ride around in a Taurox Prime with 5 Scions, and all fit in a Vanguard Detachment with my Deathwatch Watch Master with jetpack and 5 TH/SS Vanguard Veterans. The psychic power is amazing and has great potential to allow successful charges. Use it to charge a unit with a good Overwatch, or on a Baneblade or whatever you want. Then charge with your Fulgurites or the Deathwatch in my case. Given, it all comes down to luck on the psy roll and no denying from the opponent.
You can fit an Inquisitor in a Vanguard Detachment cheaply by using 3 barebones Acolytes (because their equipment is damn expensive, seriously why) and a barebones Inquisitor, it'll cost you 79 pts. The Acolytes can be used to deny deep strikes in your deployment phase.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Well I'm thinking inquisitor and 3 assassins: cullexus, callidus and either eversor for fun or another cullexus. Assassins are amazing. That has been proven by top finishes in major tournaments. And inquisitor can somewhat help with morale issues on top of denying
Yeah Assassins are great, except the Vindicare (sadly because it's a great looking model).
Regarding Primaris Psyker vs Inquisitor: I think that can have different reasons, depending on your army composition you could have problems including them without loosing chapter tactic equivalents. Also you have to pay for some goodies before your inquisitor gets usable in melee, while the Primaris with his staff isn't that bad to begin with.
But I really like the LD bubble, so I started tubing Greyfax. (But I also run my force pretty infantry heavy, so I really benefit from it).
Less experienced players are afraid of Snipers doing damage though, so the Vindicare is good for weeding out those people and you can force them to potentially deploy in a bad way.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aaranis wrote: I've talked about Inquisitors before, the psychic power to prevent Overwatch is a reason to take it all by itself. It boosts morale and can ride in any transport he wants.
I built one to use as an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, he's accompanied by two Acolytes, one with bolt pistol/chainsword and the other with the same + flamer. They ride around in a Taurox Prime with 5 Scions, and all fit in a Vanguard Detachment with my Deathwatch Watch Master with jetpack and 5 TH/SS Vanguard Veterans. The psychic power is amazing and has great potential to allow successful charges. Use it to charge a unit with a good Overwatch, or on a Baneblade or whatever you want. Then charge with your Fulgurites or the Deathwatch in my case. Given, it all comes down to luck on the psy roll and no denying from the opponent.
You can fit an Inquisitor in a Vanguard Detachment cheaply by using 3 barebones Acolytes (because their equipment is damn expensive, seriously why) and a barebones Inquisitor, it'll cost you 79 pts. The Acolytes can be used to deny deep strikes in your deployment phase.
If you bring an Inquisitor though, you might as well go ham and bring a good number of Assassins.
Sure Assassins are really good, I think the Eversor and Culexus are my favourites. Rumor has it that they'll be limited to one per detachment though, like Daemon princes, Company Commanders, Tau Commanders and the likes. We'll see in the March FAQ.
Aaranis wrote: Sure Assassins are really good, I think the Eversor and Culexus are my favourites. Rumor has it that they'll be limited to one per detachment though, like Daemon princes, Company Commanders, Tau Commanders and the likes. We'll see in the March FAQ.
Wait, is there some sort of rumour round-up for the FAQ? Do we have any idea of the scope of it (number of pages, will they change points or basically just enact the beta rules etc) and it's release date?
Unfortunately it's an info that needs to be taken with pincers, it's coming from an employee at my local Warhammer store. He said he saw the page where it was referenced, but is not allowed to say more about this. So, it may be right, may be wrong, may be part right/part wrong... We'll see soon enough.
How would it nerf us ? I don't believe GW sees Domini as broken characters that need to be taken care of. And I'm glad if Assassins come back to the "one per army" format, makes them feel unique and special instead of having an army of Eversors. Happy if they tone down the Daemon Prince spam too. I don't like the focus on characters on tabletop. Especially given how protected they are with the current rules.
Because most of us have got a Guard Batallion with 2 CC, 3 Infantry Squads and 2 Mortar HWT. This would not be possible after said nerf.
Sure limiting Assassins make them feel more special, but especially in the case of the Eversor it also limits their effectivness.
Combine this with the rumor that Guardsman will be 5ppm and we have yet another (indirect) nerf to AdMech.
I don't understand how it limits the effectiveness of the Eversor if you take less of it, the efficiency stays the same doesn't it ? I mean, if you can take less, these points aren't lost, just attributed to something else. A single Eversor is still very capable of proving his worth in one turn, even if he dies in the process.
Can't we see these hypothetical (because that's what they are right now) changes as indirect buffs to AdMech in a way ? If all our opponents get nerfed, our efficiency only improves. And among all these changes we may see some good for AdMech, starting with the FAQ and maybe adding FoC if it brings interesting rules and models.
I'd like to ask simply what is wrong with pure AdMech on competitive level, given I don't play in tournaments ? Is it the cost of most units ? Lack of some weapons/units ?
Aaranis wrote: I don't understand how it limits the effectiveness of the Eversor if you take less of it, the efficiency stays the same doesn't it ? I mean, if you can take less, these points aren't lost, just attributed to something else. A single Eversor is still very capable of proving his worth in one turn, even if he dies in the process.
Can't we see these hypothetical (because that's what they are right now) changes as indirect buffs to AdMech in a way ? If all our opponents get nerfed, our efficiency only improves. And among all these changes we may see some good for AdMech, starting with the FAQ and maybe adding FoC if it brings interesting rules and models.
I'd like to ask simply what is wrong with pure AdMech on competitive level, given I don't play in tournaments ? Is it the cost of most units ? Lack of some weapons/units ?
Redundancy is key. If they kill one Eversor they don't have to worry that other one deployed. It doesn't exist.
Aaranis wrote: I don't understand how it limits the effectiveness of the Eversor if you take less of it, the efficiency stays the same doesn't it ? I mean, if you can take less, these points aren't lost, just attributed to something else. A single Eversor is still very capable of proving his worth in one turn, even if he dies in the process.
Can't we see these hypothetical (because that's what they are right now) changes as indirect buffs to AdMech in a way ? If all our opponents get nerfed, our efficiency only improves. And among all these changes we may see some good for AdMech, starting with the FAQ and maybe adding FoC if it brings interesting rules and models.
I'd like to ask simply what is wrong with pure AdMech on competitive level, given I don't play in tournaments ? Is it the cost of most units ? Lack of some weapons/units ?
Redundancy is key. If they kill one Eversor they don't have to worry that other one deployed. It doesn't exist.
This.
E.g. you use them to kill a Space Marine Captain sitting in the back buffing some units. I wouldn´t bank on just one Eversor, because you could fail the charge and even if you make the charge there is still a (not so small) likelihood that it won´t be enough to kill said Character. But if you take 2-3 the kill is basically save.
Here you can see the armigers size compared to the rest of our forces. So these things have to be around redemptor dreadnoughts statwise right? Either way, interesting to see how much this boxset will end up costing
Admech
Tech priest dominus 22
Skitarii 23.5
Total without armigers: £45.5
79-45.5=33.5. So 33.5 would be the difference for the knights and since there's two of them they should be £16.75 each. Anyone else feel like we're getting the way longer end of the stick from this box haha?
Guesstimate for how long before the armigers can be purchased individually?
Also how long do these special box deals tend to last? I remember looking to buy the super Admech one years ago(had tons of stuff in it) and it had sold out.
I have no interest in necrons but if it’s priced accordingly and the wait will be 6-8 months before individual release I might be tempted.
Anyone have a rough idea how long GW usually take on average or is it totally random?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Battle maniple was the name of the Admech box deal. Retailed for £130 without offers
Someone on Bolter forums reckoned about 3-4 months. Be interesting to see how these armigers slot into an Admech army. I liked your old fully mechanised list Suzuteo.
Be cool if something like that was viable using armigers and dragoons.
Octovol wrote: If these things dont have the admech keyword after all this build up with them being in an admech vs necron box....i'll feel cheated lol
They're in a weird spot, because they should, but evidently they are in the lord of war slot so I sort of doubt they will
Octovol wrote: If these things dont have the admech keyword after all this build up with them being in an admech vs necron box....i'll feel cheated lol
Has anyone had any success/enjoyment with Lucius before? I quite fancy a clutch warlord moment using solar flare to teleport to safety or support an attack.
Octovol wrote: If these things dont have the admech keyword after all this build up with them being in an admech vs necron box....i'll feel cheated lol
QUESTOR MECHANICUS and <HOUSEHOLD> surely?
Yeah probably, would be nice if they had canticles though. Although the Knights of the Cog stratagem is pretty good if you have a cheapo lord of war detachment with 2 of these guys and a "real" knight (or just three armigers)
(Or actually, just looked at it and realised it affects a single unit, really thought you made a questor mechanicus detachment admech for that turn)
Nope, no rumours that I know of. The article implied the loadout was dedicated to anti-tank though, don't know if it's the only loadout but it's a solid assumption. Historically, the squires and men-at-arms accompanied knights into battle to protect them, leaving the knight to focus on other opponents.
Armigers need to be one or both:
1) Super-Heavy: This means we can field low points Questor Mechanicus Super-Heavy Detachments.
2) AdMech: These things can essentially replace Dunecrawlers in some lists.
The Warhammer Community article listed them as Lords of War. Which would make it 2 Armigers + a Knight or, done another way, 2 Forgebane's worth of Armigers to fill up a Super Heavy Detachment. If they're affordable, that might be a reasonable way for a Ad Mech army to get some more Command Points.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Stray observation I want to make. Consider these two list fragments:
(List 1)
Sydonian Dragoon w/Taser Lance and Phosphor Serpenta
Sydonian Dragoon w/Taser Lance and Phosphor Serpenta
5 Vanguard
Both of these lists are the exact same number of points.
For as long as I've been reading this thread, option 2 has always seemed like it's "common sense" choice. Option 1 puts slightly betters shooting vs MEQ on two tougher bodies, that can still fire after an advance.
I'm gluing serpenta in holsters ono my Dragoons as we speak.
Further to my other post in this thread (Mon, 22/Jan/2018 23:01:54), myself and the Tyranid player finally got round to duking it out.
Sadly I called it at the end of my turn 3...
In 3 turns of shooting, all I had managed to kill was 2 Warriors and 9 Gants. I was rolling seas of 2s to hit (bypassing the TPD reroll) and the few shots that did hit all seemed to roll 1s.
Cawl is now on my painting table.
I'm pleased by the armigers, esp as a friend wants to start collecting necrons; but I'm not expecting it to fix us, even if it's great.
What I am more excited by is that the Forgebane box may get some people to start collecting Ad Mech, if said people enjoy crushing crons with mini-knights, they'll buy more models, the more models that are bought, the more attention GW pays, the more attention GW pays, the more toys / revisions / etc you get.
At the very least it might stop us going the way of Sisters by 9th / 10th
em_en_oh_pee wrote: They are a Lord of War? Well, they will be overpriced then. GW has no idea how to handle point costs on the "big" stuff (see: Knights).
That's what I'm afraid of. The box is weird though, someone over at bolter and chainsword calculated the necrons to be worth around 500points (I don't know necrons and this is obviously pre-codex so not exactly ironclad numbers) but Admech is 195 minimum sans knights (125 for a base TPD and 70 for 10 rangers, stock) but considering they're showing them with an transuranic arquebus, an arc rifle and a guy with a phosphor blast pistol they're actually 227 points. (+25,+4,+3 respectively). So unless the knights are like 135points each how is this box balanced pointwise?
