gendoikari87 wrote: that's because GW's going for incremental balancing. they don't want to over/under nerf anything in one go. they're literally seeing what gets used at tournaments nerfing the things that get spammed and buffing the things that don't get used, I.E. Don't sell.
We must not be reading the same Chapter Approved then.
Right. For plastic models you can buy, mathematically terrible units (intercessors, inceptors, sicarians, etc.) got 10% point reductions. They are still awful because the problem was their durability for their points. For resin models that they don't even sell (ESBs, malefic lords, etc.), GW doled out 50-100% point increases. The nerfs were hard. The buffs were small. This is how blizzard does their balancing as well.
gendoikari87 wrote: that's because GW's going for incremental balancing. they don't want to over/under nerf anything in one go. they're literally seeing what gets used at tournaments nerfing the things that get spammed and buffing the things that don't get used, I.E. Don't sell.
LOL. It's a biannual nerf, and it shows. They're going to try to sweep as many problems away in one go, since we're going to be stuck with this meta for 6 months.
Anyhow, it's common practice to err on the side of weaker when nerfing and buffing.
True. They do seem to register that a focus on competitive play is what's profitable for them in the long run.
If they do decide to go all-in on this, we can also see:
1) More easily built and painted models (more players)
2) Downward pressure on points (faster games)
3) Multi-army events (more variety)
4) An official GW circuit and player rating (more control)
So what was the consensus on Breachers? They seem pretty decent as a unit we could use to push with instead of just relying on Vanguard and/or Dragoons.
I'd be especially interested to know if anyone uses them with the Warlord Trait which allows to-hit re-rolls. Could be very powerful on units with 3 Str 6/12 hits a piece...
I tried breachers once and was facing off against some 2+ armor bullgryns. I thought to myself, "Ok, my elite melee unit vs his elite melee unit, I should get the charge off to attack first."
Then I realized how few attacks they have.
Then I realized that they're 5+ to hit.
Then I realized their weapon is only AP MINUS ONE unlike every other powerfist equivalent in the game.
i use breachers as my second line of defence with -1 to it stygies ad usually dominus nearby. Big bases good defence and soem utility.They arent effrective at killing but are nice tar pit exactly why i use them. Especialyl if i got counter priests on my deefence or vanguard etc. I know thye are not superb but can do some damage in light vehicles especially in heavy transport armies. or even do melee damage especially with stratagem and canticles.
I dont say they are superb nor compare to other good ones like draggons but i need them as troops and for 120 points i take them to have a usage instead of dead 5 man rangers.
i see many argue you can use 95 points snipers etc etc.
my answer is simple.
you can decide to play your army as you like. we got the best shooting vs many others if not top shooting army. but in order to make it effective you must decide.
If you got 5-6 robots draggons Cawl 3-4 onagers etc you definetly need screener units and lots of them. you cant take only range units.
If you decide to invest in snipers you ll need at least 4 guns to have a chance to do some tactic work and i dont want to spend 200 points in them. I know they are good and i got a list with 4 sure but not in here. you ll need 2 battalions to invest in snipers and i dont like to have 6 troop options.
after all the games iv played the max investment for me is.
One battalion
1x5 rangers
1x7-10 vang.
1x3+ breachers.
then i take our superb mech. Dont need 1 wound models spamming doing practically nothing vs any other unit we got that is healable buffable and pretty darn superb.
If i have to go heave 2 battalions for command points then id decide prio to take snipers and almost same second battalion.
and definetly invest in mobility after than so less robots. not a static line beyond snipers. so its a decision for the rest of the army.
Same decision seems to be gaining ground. 3 onagers must and default 2 neutron 1x icarus being the best option for me.
for soup i decied 2 basilisks are the sweet point for me. and my list detachments.
the_scotsman wrote: I tried breachers once and was facing off against some 2+ armor bullgryns. I thought to myself, "Ok, my elite melee unit vs his elite melee unit, I should get the charge off to attack first."
Then I realized how few attacks they have.
Then I realized that they're 5+ to hit.
Then I realized their weapon is only AP MINUS ONE unlike every other powerfist equivalent in the game.
Yep, F that unit, never using them again.
A bullgryn is 42 points. They hit point for point at a comparable level (assuming point discounts) to a dragoon with the +2 to hit buff assuming the bullgryns their their charge +1 attack and +1 attack for a priest. Dragoons are faster and more flexible, bullgryns generally tougher.
@yoda
You would want 6 not 4 snipers for consistency if your going down that route.
Thing is its not 5 man vanguard vs 120pt breatchers
Its 3x5 man vanguard and collectively they are tankier and not bad anti-infantfy
Can you field what you want of course but if you want breatchers you are disadvantaged especially post Chapter approved as the vanguard/ranger price reduction really makes them comparable to guard infantry
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote: I tried breachers once and was facing off against some 2+ armor bullgryns. I thought to myself, "Ok, my elite melee unit vs his elite melee unit, I should get the charge off to attack first."
Then I realized how few attacks they have.
Then I realized that they're 5+ to hit.
Then I realized their weapon is only AP MINUS ONE unlike every other powerfist equivalent in the game.
Yep, F that unit, never using them again.
So you now recognise your first mistake was taking breachers and your second was letting them get charged by a CC unit even a comparatively bad one like bullgryns.
Speaking of shielding from melee, has anyone attempted using large units of Cognis Autocannon Balistarii?
Using the strategm to fire Cognis weapons in overwatch using normal BS with 4 Autocannon shots a pop could be pretty tasty at either preventing elite units from getting in, or removing the punch from the larger units charging them
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: Speaking of shielding from melee, has anyone attempted using large units of Cognis Autocannon Balistarii?
Using the strategm to fire Cognis weapons in overwatch using normal BS with 4 Autocannon shots a pop could be pretty tasty at either preventing elite units from getting in, or removing the punch from the larger units charging them
Autocannons are a hammer in search of a nail. They are efficiently against elite infantry that pretty much don't exist.
That being said, in terms of role, if you have Neutron Crawlers, you can take Autocannon Ballistarii for anti-MEQ, though I personally like an Icarus Crawler instead.
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: Speaking of shielding from melee, has anyone attempted using large units of Cognis Autocannon Balistarii?
Using the strategm to fire Cognis weapons in overwatch using normal BS with 4 Autocannon shots a pop could be pretty tasty at either preventing elite units from getting in, or removing the punch from the larger units charging them
Autocannons are a hammer in search of a nail. They are efficiently against elite infantry that pretty much don't exist.
That being said, in terms of role, if you have Neutron Crawlers, you can take Autocannon Ballistarii for anti-MEQ, though I personally like an Icarus Crawler instead.
Could you elaborate? I tend to find Autocannons one of the most useful weapons in bang-to-buck ratio - MEQs, vehicles, multi-wound units; While I have a lot of rather specialist units in my army, I find it's very useful to have something versatile to ensure I always have options. Besides, 1 CP for a relatively cheap 12 Autocannon shots on a 2+ is a problem for anything bar a Primarch/Land Raider/Conscript squad
Ah I finally have multiple Dragoons, bought myself one and received another as a gift from someone who stops Mechanicus. I'll try it in this list at 2000 pts against two guys at my store in the end of the week:
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: Speaking of shielding from melee, has anyone attempted using large units of Cognis Autocannon Balistarii?
Using the strategm to fire Cognis weapons in overwatch using normal BS with 4 Autocannon shots a pop could be pretty tasty at either preventing elite units from getting in, or removing the punch from the larger units charging them
Autocannons are a hammer in search of a nail. They are efficiently against elite infantry that pretty much don't exist.
That being said, in terms of role, if you have Neutron Crawlers, you can take Autocannon Ballistarii for anti-MEQ, though I personally like an Icarus Crawler instead.
Could you elaborate? I tend to find Autocannons one of the most useful weapons in bang-to-buck ratio - MEQs, vehicles, multi-wound units; While I have a lot of rather specialist units in my army, I find it's very useful to have something versatile to ensure I always have options. Besides, 1 CP for a relatively cheap 12 Autocannon shots on a 2+ is a problem for anything bar a Primarch/Land Raider/Conscript squad
Well, you have to compare them to Twin Lascannons, Neutron Lasers, Icarus Arrays, and Heavy Phosphor for efficiency within certain roles. Autocannons have a jack of all trades profile that is often beat out against specific targets by one of the three aforementioned weapons.
Everything the autocannon ballistari does ... the icarus onager does better. Ballistari only make sense in seriously skew builds where you run 4+ of them to stack up the benefits of the +2 to hit strategem. 2x Ballistari generate 8 autocannon shots for 150 points, but an icarus onager is way tougher for 130 points and shoots better on the move with comparable firepower.
And they are stronger against Hemlock Fighters and Daemon Primarchs than Neutron Lasers. Not to mention they burn through low and mid-toughness flying units like Assault Marines, Elysians, Shining Spears, Battlesuits, etc. like nothing else in the game.
Also depends on what you have slots for. A battlation with 2 neutrons and robots has no room for an icarus onager but has plenty of room for balistarii. Not having onager in squads any more really screws with out force organisation in 8th. Whereas with ironstriders you have the flexibility to have more or less investment in each slot.
U02dah4 wrote: They are uncompetitive and pretty awful but are still better than destroyers
Man I did not see that at all lol. My grav/phosphor destroyers have always performed pretty OK. not as good as dakkastelans for the points obviously but they do more damage on average vs tanks with the grav guns and they fill troop slots/have obsec/can move.
Breachers are just....loathsome. The "T5-6, tons of wounds, no save" stat vehicle that they want to be targeting just doesn't exist.
U02dah4 wrote: They are uncompetitive and pretty awful but are still better than destroyers
Man I did not see that at all lol. My grav/phosphor destroyers have always performed pretty OK. not as good as dakkastelans for the points obviously but they do more damage on average vs tanks with the grav guns and they fill troop slots/have obsec/can move.
Breachers are just....loathsome. The "T5-6, tons of wounds, no save" stat vehicle that they want to be targeting just doesn't exist.
I think it´s not really their dmg that is lacking, but more that their cost/durability ratio is pretty lackluster.
U02dah4 wrote: They are uncompetitive and pretty awful but are still better than destroyers
Man I did not see that at all lol. My grav/phosphor destroyers have always performed pretty OK. not as good as dakkastelans for the points obviously but they do more damage on average vs tanks with the grav guns and they fill troop slots/have obsec/can move.
Breachers are just....loathsome. The "T5-6, tons of wounds, no save" stat vehicle that they want to be targeting just doesn't exist.
Yeah I agree. Breachers are terrible. At least with destroyers they can be hidden behind ruins and have a 35" range. Coupled with Cawl they put out hurt. Wouldn't take more than 2 groups of 3 of them but they do enough that they dont hamstring you. Just don't deploy them on the front line and expect to like them.
I am biased as I have a hard on for breachers and destroyers but I can tell you, they always do well in my games. DONT give them the hydralic Claws unless you are dedicating them to attacking buildings, where their -1 to hit will no longer apply.
Heavy Arc Rfiles can kill infantry pretty well but excell and scaring your opponent. Having two squads (6 in total) firing at a tank will heavily damage it due to volly fire. Combine this with rerolls from Cawl or Dom and you can even pop tanks outright with some luck on the damge rolls. D6 is nothing to sneeze at.
Torsion cannons... I love them but unless you bring Cawl... You need those rerolls otherwise just take an Onagar with beam, it will probaly do the job better and roughly the same amount of points.
Destroyers, I know most people hate due to their high cost and realtive soft chasiss but man, they do work in all my games. I prefer the Grav over the Plasma though, as I like to have 15 shots over 3D6. Just prefrence though.
Yeah. Though I’m using this to get a super heavy and considering a knight. Got two lemons, infantry and two manticore..... still debating which super a knight or tank
So I've finally accepted the mathematical truth (praise be the Machine-God) and found a tool to Mathammer with the basic variables. However I had difficulty calculating the exploding hits for the Dragoons so I don't believe they're exactly right. Also for some reason, for the Dunecrawler I have more damage with rerolls of 1 than with full rerolls, I wonder if there's a glitch in the formula or something, so if anyone could check out the maths for these two entries I'd be grateful.
Anyway, I calculated these results to know which of these units were the more reliable to destroy Leman Russes (trauma of facing three of them the other day) and surprisingly the most efficient, barring Stratagems and support characters, are the Fistelans. Feel free to do the maths again if you have more advanced tools Here's the results:
Spoiler:
Against Leman Russ (E8, 3+):
- 2 Kastelan Robots w/Fists, fights twice: 10,00 W 23,00 pts/W
Rerolls 1 to Hit,fights twice: 11,67 W 19,71 pts/W
- 2 Kastelan Robots w/Full PHB, double shots: 4,00 W 55,00 pts/W
Double shots, Rerolls 1 to Hit: 4,22 W 52,13 pts/W
Double shots, Rerolls all to Hit: 6,00 W 36,66 pts/W
- 3 Sydonian Dragoons: 4,50 W 45,33 pts/W
Rerolls 1 to Hit: 5,50 W 37,09 pts/W
+2 to Hit: 8,25 W 24,72 pts/W
Rerolls 1 to Hit, +2 to Hit: 9,09 W 22,49 pts/W
- 5 Deathwing Knights: 6,44 W 38,82 pts/W
Rerolls all to Hit: 8,59 W 29,10 pts/W
Rerolls all to Hit, +1A: 12,65 W 19,76 pts/W
Rerolls all to Hit, +2A: 16,69 W 14,98 pts/W
- 1 Onager Dunecrawler w/Neutron Laser: 3,11 W 43,40 pts/W
Rerolls 1 to Hit: 6,22 W 21,70 pts/W
Rerolls to Hit: 4,15 W 32,53 pts/W
Rerolls 1 to Hit, +2 to Hit: 7,78 W 17,35 pts/W
This is my first time doing this so there may be mistake, but barring any rerolls and stratagems the Fistelans are the most efficient against Leman Russes. The Neutronager results don't convince me at all with these rerolls shenanigans, I wonder what went wrong. The results were 1,78 hits, 1,19 wounds, 1,19 unsaved wounds, 4,15 total Damage. What is strange is that the calculations went fine with the shooty Kastelans. I entered 3,5 for the Damage value as I believe it's the average on a D6 where 3 is the minimum Damage ?
I am going to Kastle Konflict 01 tomorrow in Mountain View. It will be a strict LVO prep with full blown ITC beta rules. 2000 points as usual. I am set on my first two detachments (plus or minus some gun/mortar upgrades to round out points). But I can't decide between these last two choices.
Spoiler:
MARS Spearhead
Cawl + 1x5 Dakkabots + 3x1 Neutronager
IMPERIUM Patrol
Celestine + 1x5 space marine scouts [first drop to space out obliterator deep strike]
STYGIES Auxilliary
1x4 Dragoons [optionally infiltrate as last drop depending on opponents deployment]
In 2017, when I had Celestine, I went 2-1. When I didn't bring her, I went 1-2. The consistency was scary.
EDIT: thanks yoda. Yeah, I could see shaving off ~120 points of shooting unit and putting in 30 more guardsmen. Celestine isn't much a screen, but she is so flexible at getting across the board and tying up a key shooting unit. I am considering a second guard battallion as a strict body herd. Just more bodies. Alright, based on Yodas suggestions. I need to speed paint this and get it ready. I am going to run this:
Spoiler:
MARS - Cawl + 1x5 dakkabot + 3x1 neutronager
IMPERIUM - no regiment bonus for these guys, but they are still <CADIA> so tbey can still get orders, and relic of lost cadia, and strategem
Celestine + 1x1 <GRAIA> Enginseer for 4+ deny strategm + 3x10 front rank guardsmen to die
CADIA - 2x1 commander, 3x10 guardsmen (no mortars, ran out of points), 1x2 basilisks
I would try to make the list with one less basilisk maybe one less robot and make the stygies an outrider. The list is v v good but...
Celestine speed and ability to move respawn etc needs to be consistent. While you still need screener for so many Robots and Onagers. The extra 2*1 balistarii or Dragoons will always screen and help as fast to cover Celestine jumping. While if you take them lasc balistarii you can switch one neutron for icarus and get a more complete list.
I play the exact same list found that I was either using Dragoons as screen and it is effective but I won't have any offensive. Or turn the list as I explained. If I send Dragoons to the offnsive and they are good I loose easy and get my robots locked vs alpha chargers etc. So 2*1 and making an outrider seems valid for me.
Simply put i would love 10 basilisks but I don't need to invest 324 more points after Robots and Onagers. 2 are enough and I believe for tour lists ad mech units are more durable and more efficient shooting. Basilisks are there for some los shooting not better shooting. And the lists definitely needs more bodies to screen than 30 troops. I can then even decide to get Dragoons for defence vs extreme chargers but still get my balistarii roaming. You get the picture. Enjoy
Tip even if you keep your lost building I d still remove one basilisk and get 1*6 Dragoons. You need to make it work 100% .there is no point to have that setup. Don't need so much extreme measures. Cause you LL go second almost every game. Make them 1*5 and icarus you LL get 60 points for 10 more or troops. Or even a datasmith for mobility.
Suzuteo wrote: Adeptus Custodes are getting their own Codex. If they are sturdy enough, maybe we have a new candidate for screen.
I ran 1000pts of dragoons and onagers and a couple of robots with a pairing of 1000 pts of custodes, SoS and a lascannon decked land raider against 2k of balanced guard and we wiped the floor with them. Only the SoS, my dragoons and the land raider went down with a single custodes model left. All our ranged gun line was untouched, the land raider was a delivery mechanism for a squad of custodes.
I must admit i could stomach pairing custodes with admech more than pithy guard or cringy dull-marines. At least they have some character.
Hey, so I am returning to my Ad Mech after a bit of a break, and haven’t seen many Knights in lists. Have they fallen out of favor? If anyone has a list to share I would love to see it.
KampfKrote wrote: Hey, so I am returning to my Ad Mech after a bit of a break, and haven’t seen many Knights in lists. Have they fallen out of favor? If anyone has a list to share I would love to see it.
Ever since the context, keeping a lone Knights has fallen out of favor because they didn't get integrated into the army as a whole.
However, we have discussed the possibility of an all-Knight army before. Thanks to Enginseers getting -5 points, we can actually do this now:
Fast Attack - 340 5x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
Super-Heavy Detachment - 1536
Lord of War - 512 Knight Crusader - Titanic Feet, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber
Lord of War - 512 Knight Crusader - Titanic Feet, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber
Lord of War - 512 Knight Crusader - Titanic Feet, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber
Total: 2000 points 7 Command Points
Otherwise, competitive lists have these characteristics:
Cawl
4-6x Kastelans (Kills everything)
1-3x Neutron Crawlers (Reliable anti-tank)
0-2x Icarus Crawlers (Daemon Primarchs and Eldar are FotM)
4-6x Dragoons (CDI stratagem allows them to wreck one vehicle per turn)
Company Commander with 5+/5+ CP recycling Relic and Warlord Trait (AdMech is very CP hungry, but struggles to form a Brigade)
2-3x Basilisk (Being able to hit anything without LOS is key)
Here's mine:
Spoiler:
Cadian Battalion Detachment - 522
HQ - 60 1x Company Commander - Lasgun, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist
1x Company Commander - Lasgun, Chainsword, Kurov's Aquila
Solid list. Mine is basically identical but one commander becomes a Primaris psyker, 1 or 2 less robots, no dragoons, and a bunch of Elysians plus Harker to buff the basilisks.
ph34r wrote: Solid list. Mine is basically identical but one commander becomes a Primaris psyker, 1 or 2 less robots, no dragoons, and a bunch of Elysians plus Harker to buff the basilisks.
Just make your Guard Cadian, then you have auto reroll 1 on your Basilisks. Plus you can take the Cadian Relic if playing against chaos.
What's the math on Stygies vs Graia for buffing defense on mass Skitarii?
ph34r wrote: Solid list. Mine is basically identical but one commander becomes a Primaris psyker, 1 or 2 less robots, no dragoons, and a bunch of Elysians plus Harker to buff the basilisks.
Just make your Guard Cadian, then you have auto reroll 1 on your Basilisks. Plus you can take the Cadian Relic if playing against chaos.
What's the math on Stygies vs Graia for buffing defense on mass Skitarii?
Yeah. I would recommend this as well, since Earthshakers get the Catachan buff for free anyway. Also, that anti-Chaos relic is insanely good.
And you want Graia for the Warlord trait. Vanguard shooting at point blank with the -1T is very useful. It also makes you viable against other horde armies like Orks or Tyranids. (Not having Chainswords or Choppas sucks.)
I'm not quite sure if I should make the Graia my Warlord or just add a Guard battalion for the 5+/5+ CP gain and to let those Guardsman eat the first charges.
I assumed against an opponent which would make Graia more feasible over Stygies, there usually wouldn't be any Vanguard around after a round of melee to take advantage of the point blank firing...
lash92 wrote: I'm not quite sure if I should make the Graia my Warlord or just add a Guard battalion for the 5+/5+ CP gain and to let those Guardsman eat the first charges.
I am assuming by mass Skitarii, you mean an army with 600+ points of Vanguard in two Battalions and a Spearhead in support. You should have plenty of CP for such an army.
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: I assumed against an opponent which would make Graia more feasible over Stygies, there usually wouldn't be any Vanguard around after a round of melee to take advantage of the point blank firing...
Usually, you wouldn't have much a say in the matter. But when it's a horde vs. horde grinder, there are often many damaged units left over.
Here's a scenario: You're up against Green Tide. You shoot the front unit of Boyz. They charge into your front unit of Vanguard with pistols and choppas. Because they were weakened by the shooting, you might have one or two Skitarii left over, which can shoot into them; you don't want to fall back because you want those last Skitarii to act as a speed bump so your guys can keep shooting at other Ork units, continuing to weaken them. Remember, they still only get one charge, so if you space your lines 3" apart, those Boyz will not be able to pile into your next line.
lash92 wrote: I'm not quite sure if I should make the Graia my Warlord or just add a Guard battalion for the 5+/5+ CP gain and to let those Guardsman eat the first charges.
I am assuming by mass Skitarii, you mean an army with 600+ points of Vanguard in two Battalions and a Spearhead in support. You should have plenty of CP for such an army.
Yeah I mean an army with that many Vanguard. Maybe not with that detachments, cause I want some Guards for non los shooting. I just love the extra CPs you get, but maybe it´s not really worth if you have already 10.
I ran the following list, which everyone regarded as competitive:
Spoiler:
MARS Spearhead Cawl 1x4 Dakkabots 3x1 Neutronagers
IMPERIUM soup battalion Celestine + Geminae 1x1 CADIAN company commander with bolter 2x10 CADIAN guards //no regiment doctrine, but who cares, these guys move every turn 1x9 CADIAN guards with a mortar
CADIAN Battalion 2x1 Company commnader, 5+ WLT, Relic of lost cadia, kurovs 3x9 CADIA guards with a mortar 1x3 Basilisks
9 CP after both relics
I went 3-2 and placed 6 of 25, but could have won the games i lost if i understood my opponent's lists better.
Game 1: Played Geoff Robinson. I thought his Tyranid list was melee, it was actually artillery. I put my bots in the back line when I should have had them up front. Big blunder. Ended up going to end of turn 6, 23-29. This should have been a pretty easy win if my robots were on the front deployment edge like they should have been.
Game 2: Played generic death guard list. Got first turn, tabled him on turn 6.
Game 3: Played tanks and scions. Got first turn, got him down to 1 model left at bottom of turn 6.
Game 4: Played 9 commander tau list. I didn't understand that stealth suits could 'scout' onto my deployment edge. He seized initiative and was able to tag every vehicle in combat. If I could play this guy again, I would have beaten him easily with better bubble wrap. I misread how to handle his list badly.
Game 5: Played scions, air guard vehicles, and scion car list. Got him down to 1 model left because celestine wiffed on yarick bad. Ended turn 6. Won 31-28 because I couldn't contorl the board or deal with his 6 deepstrike characters that get bonus points in ITC if they are on objectives. Super hard matchup ITC wise, but he only had 1 model because i had to rush that last turn.
Overall, running ~56 guard bodies really works. The screen collapses in one turn, but the return fire from my robots demolishes things. 3 neutrons, 3 basilisks, 4 robots is a really good balance of firepower that threatens everything. Celestine ... I misplayed her a few times but she is the key to winning hard games.
Wulfey wrote: Game 1:
Played Geoff Robinson. I thought his Tyranid list was melee, it was actually artillery. I put my bots in the back line when I should have had them up front. Big blunder. Ended up going to end of turn 6, 23-29. This should have been a pretty easy win if my robots were on the front deployment edge like they should have been.
Ouch...
Wulfey wrote: Game 4:
Played 9 commander tau list. I didn't understand that stealth suits could 'scout' onto my deployment edge. He seized initiative and was able to tag every vehicle in combat. If I could play this guy again, I would have beaten him easily with better bubble wrap. I misread how to handle his list badly.
Always, always, always castle up against Tau. If you don't, they will wrap you up, and you will lose.
Wulfey wrote: Game 5:
Played scions, air guard vehicles, and scion car list. Got him down to 1 model left because celestine wiffed on yarick bad. Ended turn 6. Won 31-28 because I couldn't contorl the board or deal with his 6 deepstrike characters that get bonus points in ITC if they are on objectives. Super hard matchup ITC wise, but he only had 1 model because i had to rush that last turn.
Wait, do you mean to say that you lost this one?
Wulfey wrote: Overall, running ~56 guard bodies really works. The screen collapses in one turn, but the return fire from my robots demolishes things. 3 neutrons, 3 basilisks, 4 robots is a really good balance of firepower that threatens everything. Celestine ... I misplayed her a few times but she is the key to winning hard games.
I still think that 56 is too many bodies. But then again, I don't play Celestine and can't speak from experience on this point.
Surprised you didn't run into any Ynnari/Eldar though.
I won game 5. barely. It shouldn't have been close. I was blowing him off the table but yarrick made a string of lucky 3++ and he slow played to try and stop my 6th turn. I forced it and won.
I figured Tau was like a 'deep strike' army that want space to drop. But it really more of a point blank army and the castle needs to be body to body. In the future. company commanders should be the bubble wrap for the robots. SO I can heroic inervention to stop the blockers.
I could have taken geoff's list pretty easily if I read it and understood it. I beat his artillery shot for shot with my artillerty without the robots even firing.
Wulfey wrote: I figured Tau was like a 'deep strike' army that want space to drop. But it really more of a point blank army and the castle needs to be body to body. In the future. company commanders should be the bubble wrap for the robots. SO I can heroic inervention to stop the blockers.
Yeah. I think I have brought this up before, but you need to deny Tau space to stand next to your Kastelans. A literall Cawl Wall.
Note that Heroic Intervention only works AFTER the charges. Also, that all of the Tau Commanders can also get that free pile-in on your turn even if you don't charge, so keep it tight.
Wulfey wrote: I could have taken geoff's list pretty easily if I read it and understood it. I beat his artillery shot for shot with my artillerty without the robots even firing.
I am surprised that Tyranids would play artillery though. They have such great assault options now, and there are so many better artillery armies...
Wulfey switch one commander for a phycher. could help.
take one battalion 2 basilisk only 2 extra 10 mans with mortars so remove one more 10 man gard and take 1x3 dragoon or 4 worth it.
keep them screener or advance as you said you most likely advane those 2 groups so remove them and take draggons will help you a lot teaming up with Celestine when need.
Since pretty much every Eldar player has got like 35 Dark Reapers at least Id like to know what we can do against them, especially against a 10 man unit of ynari with interceptor stratagem. Looking for some AdMech possibilities, not Guard because I know there are Basilisks and Mortars but those are just not good anymore. Maybe versus the ynari ones but hitting against Aleatoc is just a pain in the ass and not worth it...
Iago40k wrote: Since pretty much every Eldar player has got like 35 Dark Reapers at least Id like to know what we can do against them, especially against a 10 man unit of ynari with interceptor stratagem. Looking for some AdMech possibilities, not Guard because I know there are Basilisks and Mortars but those are just not good anymore. Maybe versus the ynari ones but hitting against Aleatoc is just a pain in the ass and not worth it...
Shoot them with Robots. They are T3, so you are wounding on 2's and reducing them to a 5+ save. With Cawl, you can really cut them down - even Alaitoc.
And what does the interceptor matter? Do we even use anything that deep strikes anymore?
Iago40k wrote: Since pretty much every Eldar player has got like 35 Dark Reapers at least Id like to know what we can do against them, especially against a 10 man unit of ynari with interceptor stratagem. Looking for some AdMech possibilities, not Guard because I know there are Basilisks and Mortars.
pretty much all phosphor weaponry is excellent against reapers, who are generally in cover (so the ignores cover will help you out) and lose effectiveness with every wound they take unlike a vehicle target which really only loses a lot of its effectiveness with the last wound.
Dakkastelans would be my preferred unit to deal with them, then. Unfortunately that is very first turn reliant. If you're setting up a mars list, I would do something like this:
-Unit of dakkastelans as standard
if you get the first turn, great! Shoot dakkastelans at reapers, kill reapers.
If you lose first turn, reapers likely kill dakkastelans. Sadface.
Drop a unit of 10x sicarian infiltrators down, average 8 mortal wounds with wrath of mars, kill the reapers.
I don't know whether others have had success with a more efficient, less swingy solution, but that's what I can think of offhand.
Iago40k wrote: Since pretty much every Eldar player has got like 35 Dark Reapers at least Id like to know what we can do against them, especially against a 10 man unit of ynari with interceptor stratagem. Looking for some AdMech possibilities, not Guard because I know there are Basilisks and Mortars.
pretty much all phosphor weaponry is excellent against reapers, who are generally in cover (so the ignores cover will help you out) and lose effectiveness with every wound they take unlike a vehicle target which really only loses a lot of its effectiveness with the last wound.
Dakkastelans would be my preferred unit to deal with them, then. Unfortunately that is very first turn reliant. If you're setting up a mars list, I would do something like this:
-Unit of dakkastelans as standard
if you get the first turn, great! Shoot dakkastelans at reapers, kill reapers.
If you lose first turn, reapers likely kill dakkastelans. Sadface.
Drop a unit of 10x sicarian infiltrators down, average 8 mortal wounds with wrath of mars, kill the reapers.
I don't know whether others have had success with a more efficient, less swingy solution, but that's what I can think of offhand.
You have a 4+ save with Shroudpsalm. 35 shots translates to about 24 hits. That is 4 of your 6 robots dead in a turn - which yes, is absolutely devastating - but that is literally 35 Dark Reapers all shooting at your unit and going straight averages. If you don't have Shroudpsalm, you hilarious will kill more than a few Reapers too via the Repulsor Grid (about 5-6), because your 5++ is your go-to save. But honestly, who is really running that list? You sacrifice so much variety and diversity if you spam Reapers.
That being said, just deploy behind LoS blocking terrain, move up and pop BO after to double-tap. It won't be as useful because of the to-hit penalty for moving, but it beats losing 2/3 your Robots before you can shoot.
Iago40k wrote: Since pretty much every Eldar player has got like 35 Dark Reapers at least Id like to know what we can do against them, especially against a 10 man unit of ynari with interceptor stratagem. Looking for some AdMech possibilities, not Guard because I know there are Basilisks and Mortars.
pretty much all phosphor weaponry is excellent against reapers, who are generally in cover (so the ignores cover will help you out) and lose effectiveness with every wound they take unlike a vehicle target which really only loses a lot of its effectiveness with the last wound.
Dakkastelans would be my preferred unit to deal with them, then. Unfortunately that is very first turn reliant. If you're setting up a mars list, I would do something like this:
-Unit of dakkastelans as standard
if you get the first turn, great! Shoot dakkastelans at reapers, kill reapers.
If you lose first turn, reapers likely kill dakkastelans. Sadface.
Drop a unit of 10x sicarian infiltrators down, average 8 mortal wounds with wrath of mars, kill the reapers.
I don't know whether others have had success with a more efficient, less swingy solution, but that's what I can think of offhand.
You have a 4+ save with Shroudpsalm. 35 shots translates to about 24 hits. That is 4 of your 6 robots dead in a turn - which yes, is absolutely devastating - but that is literally 35 Dark Reapers all shooting at your unit and going straight averages. If you don't have Shroudpsalm, you hilarious will kill more than a few Reapers too via the Repulsor Grid (about 5-6), because your 5++ is your go-to save. But honestly, who is really running that list? You sacrifice so much variety and diversity if you spam Reapers.
That being said, just deploy behind LoS blocking terrain, move up and pop BO after to double-tap. It won't be as useful because of the to-hit penalty for moving, but it beats losing 2/3 your Robots before you can shoot.
obviously everything is variable according to terrain setup - yeah if you can deploy 6 models the size of kastelans out of los of 35 dark reapers spread across the board do it to it, but that's unlikely in my eyes. I'm assuming the situation where you'll lose most if not all of your bots turn 1 if you don't get it (you're likely to be a more elite army than him though, so there is that.
However, if reaperspam well and truly does become meta, the absolute drop-dead solution is to actually just bring Lucius bots and deep strike them. Stratagem Shmatagem, drop them in with shroudpsalm turn 1 and tank the loss of 1 bot on average from 10 reapers shooting them, then BO the remaining five to double-tap mode and drop 40 reapers on average with their shooting attacks.
S6 AP-2 ignores cover is really REALLY good at murdering dark reapers if you get the shots off, you don't even need the extra rerolls on 2 from Cawl or WoM to basically table their army in one round.
Automatically Appended Next Post: (Note: Realistically a reaperspam list will probably be running 1 ten man unit with yvraine and then multiple 5-man units. You'll want to devote 2 bots to killing the ynnari unit of 10 just to be sure, then 1 bot to each 5-man squad, so a more realistic casualty output from your 5 bots is actually 25 reapers. Still a very solid trade for you and you clean up the remainder on your following turn)
I just don't see 35 Reapers on the table being viable. You want Hemlocks, Farseers, Spiritseers, Rangers, etc. Eldar functions well with lots of tools - if you just spam a unit, you will suffer.
On an aside, even if you do go first, you need to be prepared to open a Wave Serpent up to dump the Reapers or be ready for a unit to come out of the Webway (or both). Eldar are good at getting their first shot no matter if they go first or not.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: I just don't see 35 Reapers on the table being viable. You want Hemlocks, Farseers, Spiritseers, Rangers, etc. Eldar functions well with lots of tools - if you just spam a unit, you will suffer.
On an aside, even if you do go first, you need to be prepared to open a Wave Serpent up to dump the Reapers or be ready for a unit to come out of the Webway (or both). Eldar are good at getting their first shot no matter if they go first or not.
You don't need Hemlocks. You really only need Dark Reapers, Shining Spears, some Rangers and a handful of Psykers. You are right that spamming one unit is not a good idea. But Eldar have a lot of insanely good units with a very cheap price tag. We got the national finals in germany coming up. take a look at those lists. Its 1850 points though, we will play 2k games in the upcoming season.
http://www.tabletopmasters.de/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/TTM-Finale-2017-Listen.pdf
em_en_oh_pee wrote: I just don't see 35 Reapers on the table being viable. You want Hemlocks, Farseers, Spiritseers, Rangers, etc. Eldar functions well with lots of tools - if you just spam a unit, you will suffer.
On an aside, even if you do go first, you need to be prepared to open a Wave Serpent up to dump the Reapers or be ready for a unit to come out of the Webway (or both). Eldar are good at getting their first shot no matter if they go first or not.
You don't need Hemlocks. You really only need Dark Reapers, Shining Spears, some Rangers and a handful of Psykers. You are right that spamming one unit is not a good idea. But Eldar have a lot of insanely good units with a very cheap price tag. We got the national finals in germany coming up. take a look at those lists. Its 1850 points though, we will play 2k games in the upcoming season.
http://www.tabletopmasters.de/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/TTM-Finale-2017-Listen.pdf
One spam list that I do hope - most hilariously - loses due to objectives after its three baby units die and the opponent hunkers down behind cover.
Also, Hemlocks make great blockers. That army is going to get wrecked by assault armies that can close the gap. Once locked, those Reapers fall to pieces.
Dark reapers are why my dragoons are on the shelf and celestine got put in. She threatens 30" of charging and can charge from behind a wall to dodge the overwatch.
The Admech list uses ideas i was toying around with lately. Screw forgeworld doctrines and get the best use out of the stratagems. Such as lucius destroyer with kastellans dropping midfield using Elimination volley and having a tpd with solar flare teleporting in while stygies dragoons are on the front line and some mars infiltrators for wrath dropping in. Some graia Rangers for anti psi.
Iago40k wrote: The Admech list uses ideas i was toying around with lately. Screw forgeworld doctrines and get the best use out of the stratagems. Such as lucius destroyer with kastellans dropping midfield using Elimination volley and having a tpd with solar flare teleporting in while stygies dragoons are on the front line and some mars infiltrators for wrath dropping in. Some graia Rangers for anti psi.
Elimination volley requires <FORGEWORLD>. Which is terrible. I posted some musing on the idea of using a cross forgeworld list earlier. The good combo is to stuff drop teams of plasma duders into MARS detachments, since MARS and LUCIUS forgeworld traits aren't that great.
Iago40k wrote: Since pretty much every Eldar player has got like 35 Dark Reapers at least Id like to know what we can do against them, especially against a 10 man unit of ynari with interceptor stratagem. Looking for some AdMech possibilities, not Guard because I know there are Basilisks and Mortars but those are just not good anymore. Maybe versus the ynari ones but hitting against Aleatoc is just a pain in the ass and not worth it...
Basilisks and Mortars are still good against Reapers. But if you want AdMech, the ideal counter are Icarus Crawlers, mostly because they can match their range, move from out of LOS and shoot, and also can threaten their transports. Kastelans and Dragoons can also do a fair job, but they sort of kill everything with volume fire.
Wulfey wrote: Dark reapers are why my dragoons are on the shelf and celestine got put in. She threatens 30" of charging and can charge from behind a wall to dodge the overwatch.
I don't see the logic here. Celestine is way less threatening than Dragoons, and there's nothing wrong with a unit serving as a bullet magnet. I mean, look at this from an Eldar perspective. He sees 6 Dragoons and 5 Kastelans. Nothing else in his army is going to kill those Dragoons as well as Reapers, so he has immense pressure to do from what our perspective is the suboptimal play. I mean, I would rather lose six Dragoons on turn one than three to four Kastelans any day of the week.
Iago40k wrote: The Admech list uses ideas i was toying around with lately. Screw forgeworld doctrines and get the best use out of the stratagems. Such as lucius destroyer with kastellans dropping midfield using Elimination volley and having a tpd with solar flare teleporting in while stygies dragoons are on the front line and some mars infiltrators for wrath dropping in. Some graia Rangers for anti psi.
Elimination volley requires <FORGEWORLD>. Which is terrible. I posted some musing on the idea of using a cross forgeworld list earlier. The good combo is to stuff drop teams of plasma duders into MARS detachments, since MARS and LUCIUS forgeworld traits aren't that great.
which is why you could drop 4-6 lucius dakkastelans midfield followed by lucius Grav destroyers. Teleport a TPD with solar flare and do what you want in the shooting Phase.
I used to Player 2-3 onagers but they slowly shifted out of my list since there are less and less tanks around and volume trumps quality shooting.
This leaves me with 281 pts to toy around with. Possibilities: 2 additional Dakkastelans (which I am not a fan of), 10 Mars Infiltrators (possible wrath of mars proc), Lucius or Stygies Electro Priests or any godd idea by you guys I think a counter charge unit would come in handy cause bots and destroyers will be in CC after their first shooting so I need to get them free asap. Thoughts?
Yeah they might work depending on the opponent. In a tank heavy environment (without any invuls) they can work great. But there are not that many armies that field targets for them...at least thats my feeling.
Atm I think 10 Mars Taser Infiltrators could be the best solution. Can dish out mortal wounds with Wrath of Mars, great counter charge unit and with shroud psalm and +1 save stratagem they might survive one round out in the open. When taking as lucius they would be even tougher against -1 AP weapons...hmmm.
Yeah they might work depending on the opponent. In a tank heavy environment (without any invuls) they can work great. But there are not that many armies that field targets for them...at least thats my feeling.
Atm I think 10 Mars Taser Infiltrators could be the best solution. Can dish out mortal wounds with Wrath of Mars, great counter charge unit and with shroud psalm and +1 save stratagem they might survive one round out in the open. When taking as lucius they would be even tougher against -1 AP weapons...hmmm.
Please let us know how your listed worked out!
Regarding Neutron Lasers you are spot on imo. Either they got some really nice targets where they really shine or they do not really much, for example their are really bad against things like Magnus....
Regarding infiltrators: well the +1 save cp requires them to be at an objective, so you can't always utilise it.
But I would definitely make them Mars. The ability to dish out MW is much more useful than ignoring -1 to hit imo.
Regarding Neutron Lasers you are spot on imo. Either they got some really nice targets where they really shine or they do not really much, for example their are really bad against things like Magnus....
Regarding infiltrators: well the +1 save cp requires them to be at an objective, so you can't always utilise it.
But I would definitely make them Mars. The ability to dish out MW is much more useful than ignoring -1 to hit imo.
Will do. Biggest issues my be a monster heavy Nid list.
Yeah, for 220 points they have me considering them. I worry that their 1 turn alpha strike just isn't enough however. Every army in the game can shoot/charge the entire unit of 10 off the table on their turn. You are spending 220 points and 3CP to deal about 8 mortal wounds if you have reroll 1s and the +1 to hit strategem, or 5 mortal wounds if you are hitting on 3s. They are good counter-deep strikers for sure, because their profile erases every other deep striker in the game. They can also assassinate a poorly placed character with ease. But you will be disappointed if you drop the 10 man and expect to kill a tank.
Awww Wulfey...builded 5 Ruststalkers for a War COn and now they are Infiltrators..I feel you man.
I am also trying to fit in a Culexus and maybe a cheap Company Commander as Patrol Detachment for the CP regain and, which is actually the biggest thing, to get the Assassin out of the AdMech detachment cause I kind of need Shroudpsalm on all models and not just on one Detachment.
I would think that the monster heavy nid list would be an excellent target for 2 Crawlers with Neutron Lasers. Same with the Icarus Array if they have any sort of flying monster.
ph34r wrote: I would think that the monster heavy nid list would be an excellent target for 2 Crawlers with Neutron Lasers. Same with the Icarus Array if they have any sort of flying monster.
Anyway, good luck!
it Sure would be but i am not building an anti nid list but a tournament löst. So i guess ots good to the against a bad match up like that. Cheers
I am refining my tournament list based on experiences over the weekend. This is what I am thinking would be better. All the top 5 lists had some way to 'scout' deploy outside of their deployment zone.
MARS Spearhead Cawl - 1x4 dakkabots - 3x1 neutronagers
IMPERIUM Soup battalion Celestine + Geminae Company Commander CADIA 3x5 naked scouts (maybe knives, since I really want these guys charging out of LOS through walls)
CADIA Battalion 2x Company Commander - 5+/5+, relic of lost cadia 3x9 guardsmen with mortar team 1x2 Basilisks 2x1 Mortar teams
Admech is comically vulnerable to deepstriking lists because we can't block anything outside of our deployment zone. I got completely F'ed over by a dawn of war 12" deployment zone. If I had scouts I would have a chance against more lists. EDIT: I really want to drive this point home, if your list doesn't have 'scout' deployment options [rangers, scouts, nurglings, stealth suits, etc.], then your list is not top table viable. Obliterators, tau commanders, scions, elysians, daemon primarchs, heaps of things have ways to deploy in your face and some deployment types give you only 12" of depth. If sicarians could only 'scout' deploy then admech would become massively more viable. Or if we could just deploy our troops 6" out of our deployment zone like we used to able to. Those scout moves are huge for stopping deepstrike.
Wulfey wrote: Admech is comically vulnerable to deepstriking lists because we can't block anything outside of our deployment zone. I got completely F'ed over by a dawn of war 12" deployment zone. If I had scouts I would have a chance against more lists. EDIT: I really want to drive this point home, if your list doesn't have 'scout' deployment options [rangers, scouts, nurglings, stealth suits, etc.], then your list is not top table viable. Obliterators, tau commanders, scions, elysians, daemon primarchs, heaps of things have ways to deploy in your face and some deployment types give you only 12" of depth. If sicarians could only 'scout' deploy then admech would become massively more viable. Or if we could just deploy our troops 6" out of our deployment zone like we used to able to. Those scout moves are huge for stopping deepstrike.
Concerning deployment maps, you just have to deal with that. Some deployments favor us by a ridiculous degree. Others do the opposite.
I know what Scout is in 7E, but what are scouts, and what is Scout here? Are you talking about Vanguard? I mean, Dominion Squads do what you would want them to do (I think we were talking about Sisters+Crawlers pre-codex), but keep in mind that people are currently freaking because of Reapers Webwaying into range of vulnerable vehicles for a devastating alpha strike. I still think the solution for us is to double down on Dragoons as a bullet magnet.
OH, and you can do Death Korps Grenadiers inside of a Centaur.
Concealed Positions: When you set up this unit during deployment, it can be set up anywhere on the battle eld that is more than 9" from the enemy deployment zone.
This is massive. Think about Obliterators, Tau Commanders, deepstriking primarchs (soon), scion/elysians, eldar deepstrike. All of that stuff relies on being 9" from your guys. Scouts can deploy (during deployment!) outside of your deployment zone. This massively stretches out the distance of your screen. Top tier lists all have ways of 'scout' deploying (rangers, scouts, nurglings, stealth suits, etc.). Note that this is much better than a scout sentinel's move between deployment and the first battle round. The first scout drop can decide the game if you are facing deepstrike.
In regards to Robots vs Reapers, does the -1 to hit start to increase the apetite for Robots sans Crawl, favouring extra survivability and flexibility (with Robots dead you just have a 240pt Crawl helping a couple of Dunecrawlers with re-rolls) over the possibility of the Mars alpha strike?
Concealed Positions: When you set up this unit during deployment, it can be set up anywhere on the battle eld that is more than 9" from the enemy deployment zone.
This is massive. Think about Obliterators, Tau Commanders, deepstriking primarchs (soon), scion/elysians, eldar deepstrike. All of that stuff relies on being 9" from your guys. Scouts can deploy (during deployment!) outside of your deployment zone. This massively stretches out the distance of your screen. Top tier lists all have ways of 'scout' deploying (rangers, scouts, nurglings, stealth suits, etc.). Note that this is much better than a scout sentinel's move between deployment and the first battle round. The first scout drop can decide the game if you are facing deepstrike.
So pretty much the same as clandestine infiltration in function, except we get to see where they are before deployment finishes; Whereas with clandestine infiltration we can take stock of the deployment and choose where to put them. But they do get it for free, whereas we have to pay cp for it, but conversely we have the flexibility to potentially do it to any unit. You see space marine scouts without sniper rifles, you can guarantee they’ll be deploying concealed.
The core Cawl 4 Robots 3 neutrons 2 basilisk has served me extremely good. After that you can try many different styles.
Celestine 250 =1*3-4 Dragoons
Or you can make the soup detachment with psychers for defence or offence. You can add plasma deep strike or my personal favorite ranger arqieb sniper and ratlings with snipers to spread all over out of deploy zone. I don't know the point changes but so far I have tried those combinations all good and nice. Up to your personal preference enjoy
The core Cawl 4 Robots 3 neutrons 2 basilisk has served me extremely good. After that you can try many different styles.
Celestine 250 =1*3-4 Dragoons
Or you can make the soup detachment with psychers for defence or offence. You can add plasma deep strike or my personal favorite ranger arqieb sniper and ratlings with snipers to spread all over out of deploy zone. I don't know the point changes but so far I have tried those combinations all good and nice. Up to your personal preference enjoy
I have 4 dragoons on my shelf. I think they are great. But they are fast attack and I need CP. Celestine lets me take 2 battalions and boy do my robots love CP. Dragoons are best taken as 1 mega blob in 1 fast attack slot ... and there is just no way I can make that fast attack choice contribute to CP. My list with Celestine and scouts is chosen because my robots and onagers eat CP every shooting phase.
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: In regards to Robots vs Reapers, does the -1 to hit start to increase the apetite for Robots sans Crawl, favouring extra survivability and flexibility (with Robots dead you just have a 240pt Crawl helping a couple of Dunecrawlers with re-rolls) over the possibility of the Mars alpha strike?
If your problem are Dark Reaper then the -1 sadly doesn't help, cause they are always hitting on 3s. Against other armys I don't know, haven't played non mars robots yet.
Are they even really viable without the Mars stratagem?
The core Cawl 4 Robots 3 neutrons 2 basilisk has served me extremely good. After that you can try many different styles.
Celestine 250 =1*3-4 Dragoons
Or you can make the soup detachment with psychers for defence or offence. You can add plasma deep strike or my personal favorite ranger arqieb sniper and ratlings with snipers to spread all over out of deploy zone. I don't know the point changes but so far I have tried those combinations all good and nice. Up to your personal preference enjoy
Whats your experience with our snipers? I kind of like them on paper, but they are pretty expensive to justify the cost. Also I think you really need 4 or even 6 to make them work.
Concealed Positions: When you set up this unit during deployment, it can be set up anywhere on the battle eld that is more than 9" from the enemy deployment zone.
This is massive. Think about Obliterators, Tau Commanders, deepstriking primarchs (soon), scion/elysians, eldar deepstrike. All of that stuff relies on being 9" from your guys. Scouts can deploy (during deployment!) outside of your deployment zone. This massively stretches out the distance of your screen. Top tier lists all have ways of 'scout' deploying (rangers, scouts, nurglings, stealth suits, etc.). Note that this is much better than a scout sentinel's move between deployment and the first battle round. The first scout drop can decide the game if you are facing deepstrike.
Ohhh, I see. Yeah, it's strictly better than the Vanguard ability, and even that had some of the benefits you mentioned.
Hm. So 55 points per minimum unit. And let's say a Company Commander for 30. That means 195 points for an Outrider. Or, as Wulfey does, you can bring Celestine. Any other ideas for how to fit these guys in? (EDIT: Realized these guys are Fast Attack.)
So pretty much the same as clandestine infiltration in function, except we get to see where they are before deployment finishes; Whereas with clandestine infiltration we can take stock of the deployment and choose where to put them. But they do get it for free, whereas we have to pay cp for it, but conversely we have the flexibility to potentially do it to any unit. You see space marine scouts without sniper rifles, you can guarantee they’ll be deploying concealed.
Better. It doesn't cost CP, and it occurs before Clandestine Infiltration, so it actually can block such an infiltration.
Well this "not having scouts" issue is why I want to leave the AdMech gunline trail (or at least Mars and Cawl). So much investment just to secure the gunline. Scouts for antidrop, a screen thats only for dying...there has to be a better way with this ton of stratagems we have, 6 canticles and forgeworld dogmas. Plus: Havent seen anyone actually winning a tournament with this gunline. Best I came out was 6th place. And if thats my best with this I have to think of something else. Especially now with daemons and dropping mortarion/magnus/bloodletter bomb/whatever. a couple of scouts will not be the saving grace against that I think because they will just drop the first nurgling unit and have an opening on either side of the board. I can see a way out, which is accepting that everything gets charged or tied up almost always turn 1. One way out: Not doing Mars but going Metalica and using the WL trait efficiently.
As with Dragoons same with Celestine and ofc snipers.
A plan must have all options to work!
I use Dragoons as stygies outrider with 2*1 and 1*3 in soup lists.
And most likely I use lasc balistarii since I use them as screener so I don't use more troops. Works also when you go for two battalions ad mech when I split also Onagers 2*1 icarus Mars and 2*1 neutron in stygies. So dominus with LL of them.
Snipers yes you need to invest points. But you will make sniers stygies. They will also serve as side or back field screener. -1 to hit and 30" on simple troops. So even if you take 2 sniper groups you can use them as screener. Found that you can actually use
2-4 snipers trans arq and you can add ratlings to cover scout issues. One group or 5 ratlings places to have a shot and two arq killed a liet. First round. You LL need to test for more add maybe two more etc.
In both cases that detachments change. You can't play and Celestine and snipers and Dragoons etc.
In my mind I consider the Celestine detachment my variations option. So I take either Celestine group or dragoon detachment or stygies generayy either Dragoons snipers priests switching to test all variations cause 8 priest really shine in most games.
So you need to abjust the numbers in the detachment . Thanks point here is to understand and practise how to play with core.
Cawl 4* robots 3* neutrons 2* basilisk needs to be practised and played extensively you don't have a simple job when numbers are small. What I won't do is take the core with out offnsive.
Celestine is easy to play with. Specific role can forgive a mistake and it's well balanced point wise model for sure. So easy to start from there. Dragoons for me works next. I consider them more effective since they are ad mech. I like it fluff wise and tbh I have more effective offensive with them. Yes Celestine can move back forth while drgoons most likely will go and keep pushing enemy lines till they die. But those Dragoons kill things a lot of them. Celestine is more of. Tar pit . And even when I use Dragoons as screener they perform. Killing almost anything.
Snipers and priests are hard to play and get results. Ad mech benefits bigger units . It's how it's build. 6 robots wrath of mars ok. And we already made changes. I believe it's going 7th style to take one group Dragoons one group snipers one priests etc. Can fit in a list sure but seems less effective for me. Might be able to face more lists but the result won't come.
That said if I could have Dragoons offensive 3-4 min priests for counter unit my lines and snipers back field all in one detachment I might try it. And I do in pure ad mech instead of basilisk I get snipers instead of gurd I invest in priests and my offensive outrider stygies.
It's fun and the results might be cool but we considering tour performance. All those units are good but you LL need to focus in one plan. So I have decided to take Dragoons not Celestine . Rest you know.
1) snipers need to get a big number to be effective and we preffered h weapons tanks instead. Priests are superb but need to get some form of synergy with something. Gem or buff or smt.
That's why!!
Now if you just want to play a competitive list but don't want o much imperial soup I LL suggest.
Make the simple battalion 2* commanders(or one phycher) and 3*10 troops.
Make core Cawl 4* robots 3* Onagers.
And then add a stygies covering
1) two sniper groups instead of basilisks
2)2*1 and 1*3-4 Dragoons balistarii for Celestine detachment
3) consider a dominus if you get both snipers and balistarii and he will be a screener effective one.
Should be close to the points.
But just let me say this last thing. We already seen this list is good but will need more screener in competitive play. 30 troop are not enough atm.
If you play properly the snipers with the -1 might get secured flanks if you play balistarii might survive mot games. But as cc and after I see deamnos generally how the first turn change working in 8th you should really consider more cc options screener etc. That's why I use Dragoons in many cases like my orc enemy I used them to screen and that's almost almost enough.
Tip March with fires of c let's hope for a cheap shield 10 man troop so we can go full ad mech lists.
Iago40k wrote: Well this "not having scouts" issue is why I want to leave the AdMech gunline trail (or at least Mars and Cawl). So much investment just to secure the gunline. Scouts for antidrop, a screen thats only for dying...there has to be a better way with this ton of stratagems we have, 6 canticles and forgeworld dogmas. Plus: Havent seen anyone actually winning a tournament with this gunline. Best I came out was 6th place. And if thats my best with this I have to think of something else. Especially now with daemons and dropping mortarion/magnus/bloodletter bomb/whatever. a couple of scouts will not be the saving grace against that I think because they will just drop the first nurgling unit and have an opening on either side of the board. I can see a way out, which is accepting that everything gets charged or tied up almost always turn 1. One way out: Not doing Mars but going Metalica and using the WL trait efficiently.
I´m also not a big fan of the Cawlstar so I´m always open to new ideas. But I don´t really know if Metallica is the way to go. First of all the range on the WT is rather small so, depending on your army, many units won´t benefit at all from the trait. Secondly its kinda useless if playing against other shooting armies, so I would rather invest in some Guardsman and get +3CP for that Batallion.
I´m also not a big fan of the Cawlstar so I´m always open to new ideas. But I don´t really know if Metallica is the way to go. First of all the range on the WT is rather small so, depending on your army, many units won´t benefit at all from the trait. Secondly its kinda useless if playing against other shooting armies, so I would rather invest in some Guardsman and get +3CP for that Batallion.
I try to keep my army lists mono faction. There are reasons to take guard I know but the addition of imperial guard into an AdMech list has apparently not that much of an impact. Otherwise there would be a lot more AdMech lists winning tournaments with this style of list.
Therefore I am trying something else.
Mixed Battalion
TPD, Lucius, Solar Flare
TPE, Lucius
6 Destroyer with Grav/Flamer, Lucius
Vanguard, Graia
Vanguard, Graia
10 Infiltrator, Mars
4 Dakkastelans, Lucius
leaves me with 7 pts to spend (harhar). I think I will follow this "drop" army idea because I dont need a big screen for this list.
Sure there are other ideas that can be used such as boiling the stygies detachment down to an outrider and taking another lets say vanguard detachment with a cheap imperial guard HQ for the 5+ CP regain WL trait, putting in those infiltrators and some other elite unit plus a Culexus.
I´m also not a big fan of the Cawlstar so I´m always open to new ideas. But I don´t really know if Metallica is the way to go. First of all the range on the WT is rather small so, depending on your army, many units won´t benefit at all from the trait. Secondly its kinda useless if playing against other shooting armies, so I would rather invest in some Guardsman and get +3CP for that Batallion.
I try to keep my army lists mono faction. There are reasons to take guard I know but the addition of imperial guard into an AdMech list has apparently not that much of an impact. Otherwise there would be a lot more AdMech lists winning tournaments with this style of list.
Therefore I am trying something else.
Mixed Battalion
TPD, Lucius, Solar Flare
TPE, Lucius
6 Destroyer with Grav/Flamer, Lucius
Vanguard, Graia
Vanguard, Graia
10 Infiltrator, Mars
4 Dakkastelans, Lucius
leaves me with 7 pts to spend (harhar). I think I will follow this "drop" army idea because I dont need a big screen for this list.
Sure there are other ideas that can be used such as boiling the stygies detachment down to an outrider and taking another lets say vanguard detachment with a cheap imperial guard HQ for the 5+ CP regain WL trait, putting in those infiltrators and some other elite unit plus a Culexus.
And from that 7CP you need 2 for Ellimination Volley, 2 for Wrath of Mars and 1 for buffing Dragoons. Also you might wanna infiltrate dragons and you might wanna use the +to hit on the Balistarii for move shot action. Thats already 7 CP gone ^^
I´m also not a big fan of the Cawlstar so I´m always open to new ideas. But I don´t really know if Metallica is the way to go. First of all the range on the WT is rather small so, depending on your army, many units won´t benefit at all from the trait. Secondly its kinda useless if playing against other shooting armies, so I would rather invest in some Guardsman and get +3CP for that Batallion.
I try to keep my army lists mono faction. There are reasons to take guard I know but the addition of imperial guard into an AdMech list has apparently not that much of an impact. Otherwise there would be a lot more AdMech lists winning tournaments with this style of list.
Therefore I am trying something else.
Mixed Battalion
TPD, Lucius, Solar Flare
TPE, Lucius
6 Destroyer with Grav/Flamer, Lucius
Vanguard, Graia
Vanguard, Graia
10 Infiltrator, Mars
4 Dakkastelans, Lucius
leaves me with 7 pts to spend (harhar). I think I will follow this "drop" army idea because I dont need a big screen for this list.
Sure there are other ideas that can be used such as boiling the stygies detachment down to an outrider and taking another lets say vanguard detachment with a cheap imperial guard HQ for the 5+ CP regain WL trait, putting in those infiltrators and some other elite unit plus a Culexus.
And from that 7CP you need 2 for Ellimination Volley, 2 for Wrath of Mars and 1 for buffing Dragoons. Also you might wanna infiltrate dragons and you might wanna use the +to hit on the Balistarii for move shot action. Thats already 7 CP gone ^^
2 for the Lucius Drop, 2 for Elimination Volley and 1 for Dragoon infiltration. The Lucius drop and the infiltartion is not always necessary, depends on the match up. Warlord trait is the 6+ CP regen which statistically gives back 1 to 2 per game so we are looking at 10-11 CP which is enough to do what needs to be done. There is a lot of "optional usage/possibilities" in that list, sure but all in all I feel this will be enough CP (but I know you never have enough CP).
Bs 4+ Cawl if you are there you know you need him. And the main factor is you reroll all hits not only miss. That's why. Spearhead is optimal for Cawl. Not only he needs 700-800 points with him to make a difference but trust me your shooting consistency will rise dramatically. Cawl is the man. + Wrath +++ cc ++ antihorde etc.
Yes you can use a dominus for bs 3+ I do usually for balistarii . An outrider he can be my warlord and not have a trash enginseer warlord etc. If your enemy has any form of -1 to hit you start to become demon then guard shooting. As you increase you bs you loose your real power.
Cawl star is shooting. Power house shooting for those reroll all hits. You loose that you won't make it out there.
Fliers will rip you any hard to hit any -1 -2 will make you cry and ofc if they use -1-2 to hit so they can charge you you won't recover ever.
As I said if I'm playing mono ad mech you should minimum get two battalions for cp. Minimum 9 cp. And usually that's the number you LL need in troops for screen etc etc.
Anything else less troops less Cawl. No wrath of Mars need to be seriously gained with other means of armies. If you believe you can take a detachment of terminators to get cc advantage ok might consider bs 3+ units and dominus.
If you don't take with of Mars that is one of the best in game range mortal wounds ability besides smite that got nerfed and it's 18 usually then you must get another way of delivering those mortals. 2*10 priests maybe. Or add psych in your list etc.
We don't write these cause we like the models or I'm Marsalchicholic. We always try to help us all be competitive.
I got no problem play the list you like but if you friend gets Mortarion deep strike with the new codex and a 3+ invu -1 to hit . Don't ask why you loose.
And I don't think Mortarion is a cheat char that does not play in lists. Imagine cheese ones. I m telling you there is not been a game lately that my opponents don't know about Robots and will spend first round demolihing them or get the. In cc. None. I got them there for fire magnets why cause I keep aegis and my enemies spend tons of shooting. That's about it . My dragoon sweep my enemies my balistarii roaming the table and the rest just die till I win. So far win tie lost from guard but was testing stuff. So far. Why cause aegis spends enemy resources to kill Dragoons spend enemy shooting -2 to kill guard 30 bodies need at elast one round to kill all. And basilisks neutrons etc are many to effectively wipe the whole list. You either got extreme anti horde and pass to kill easy robots or anti tank. And even so we are the best antitank list atm with Cawl neutron basilisks balistarii. And reroll almost LL.
Balistarii cognis weapon can shoot bs 5 even if advanced or bs 3 if advanced and gem. Won me a game. Last 3 units two balistarii roaming and a basilisk! But you still need to play v v serious ad mech not so competitive.
Tip remember to choose canticles when they are mandatory. If you go second always choose shroud don't roll it.
If you got enemies in your lines and your Dragoons ready to engage always +1 str or reroll 1s. If your spread use reroll 1s in shooting. Use them. Especially Mars if you are solo ad mech you need to utilise two canticles.
Bs 4+ Cawl if you are there you know you need him. And the main factor is you reroll all hits not only miss. That's why. Spearhead is optimal for Cawl. Not only he needs 700-800 points with him to make a difference but trust me your shooting consistency will rise dramatically. Cawl is the man. + Wrath +++ cc ++ antihorde etc.
...
I got no problem play the list you like but if you friend gets Mortarion deep strike with the new codex and a 3+ invu -1 to hit . Don't ask why you loose. .
I think both of these arguments are valid if you are planning to run your Ad Mech army as a dedicated artilitary. With just a couple of Dunecrawlers and 3 Robots, Crawl won't earn his points back. And regarding Mortarion, not having invested most of the army into a static artilitary line means that when he slammed into my back field, it wasn't a game breaker for me and he was unable to have a significant impact on the outcome of the game (being able to move and shoot with Dunecrawlers also means I was able to melt my artilitary away so he could only wipe out a unit a turn at best, while still shooting downfield with full BS).
It feels like with each new codex, there's a new army that has some way of countering static artilitary armies - while putting all the eggs in a gunline basket look good on paper, there seem to be a growing number of hard counters that IMO put increasing value on an army with flexibility
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: Here's a question - what do you believe would be more effective out of these options, considering they will be accompanied by a Dominus:
1) 2 Icarus Dunecrawlers & 3 Lascannon Balistarii (with 45 pts to spend on other units)
2) 2 Neutron Dunecrawlers & 4 Autocannon Balastarii (with 30 points to spend on other units)
3) 2 Neutron Dunecrawlers & 3 Phosphor Kastellan Robots
Why not 6 Ballistarii? With the PDI, your reroll is virtually as good as Cawl's.
But in my opinion, the best combination would be #1.
Well, Lucius bomb worked quite well against nids but as it always is, stupid close combat wrecks everything...plus my stupidity. Instead of getting my destroyers into CC I forgot to charge them and they were killed by a double shooting unit of hive guard...sadface. The usual problems occured as well: no psychic defense AND although there is a lot of dakka..there is not enough when facing dropping morti with a 3++...sooo back to list building.
Iago40k wrote: Well, Lucius bomb worked quite well against nids but as it always is, stupid close combat wrecks everything...plus my stupidity. Instead of getting my destroyers into CC I forgot to charge them and they were killed by a double shooting unit of hive guard...sadface. The usual problems occured as well: no psychic defense AND although there is a lot of dakka..there is not enough when facing dropping morti with a 3++...sooo back to list building.
Morty doesn't much appreciate six Wrathbots. That is our best answer to literally everything.
Iago40k wrote: Well, Lucius bomb worked quite well against nids but as it always is, stupid close combat wrecks everything...plus my stupidity. Instead of getting my destroyers into CC I forgot to charge them and they were killed by a double shooting unit of hive guard...sadface. The usual problems occured as well: no psychic defense AND although there is a lot of dakka..there is not enough when facing dropping morti with a 3++...sooo back to list building.
Morty doesn't much appreciate six Wrathbots. That is our best answer to literally everything.
Sure but he is looking for a way to play without Cawlstar and Robots without Cawl aren't that good anymore.
Iago40k wrote: Well, Lucius bomb worked quite well against nids but as it always is, stupid close combat wrecks everything...plus my stupidity. Instead of getting my destroyers into CC I forgot to charge them and they were killed by a double shooting unit of hive guard...sadface. The usual problems occured as well: no psychic defense AND although there is a lot of dakka..there is not enough when facing dropping morti with a 3++...sooo back to list building.
Morty doesn't much appreciate six Wrathbots. That is our best answer to literally everything.
Sure but he is looking for a way to play without Cawlstar and Robots without Cawl aren't that good anymore.
...but why? Our faction has so few good units, why not take the best one?
Hey guys, I'm sorry if this has been answered before but which is the way to deal with the Canticles rolling when I have an Admech army with two different Forger worlds and one of them is Mars with Belisarius Cawl on it?
Is there any FAQ out there clarifying that? I could not find it. Thanks!
Iago40k wrote: Well, Lucius bomb worked quite well against nids but as it always is, stupid close combat wrecks everything...plus my stupidity. Instead of getting my destroyers into CC I forgot to charge them and they were killed by a double shooting unit of hive guard...sadface. The usual problems occured as well: no psychic defense AND although there is a lot of dakka..there is not enough when facing dropping morti with a 3++...sooo back to list building.
Morty doesn't much appreciate six Wrathbots. That is our best answer to literally everything.
Sure but he is looking for a way to play without Cawlstar and Robots without Cawl aren't that good anymore.
...but why? Our faction has so few good units, why not take the best one?
Because by the time you have the Robots to shoot, Crawl to re-roll, and bodies to screen, you've pretty much spent your points on a one-trick pony. Every game, your objective is to castle up, stand and shoot for as many turns as you can. Regardless of the missions. Regardless of the opponents. Every. Single. Game.
That's why I also want to avoid a Crawlstar. I love the Mechanicus, but I won't enjoy games where I'm repeating the same actions thing over and over again.
Iago40k wrote: Well, Lucius bomb worked quite well against nids but as it always is, stupid close combat wrecks everything...plus my stupidity. Instead of getting my destroyers into CC I forgot to charge them and they were killed by a double shooting unit of hive guard...sadface. The usual problems occured as well: no psychic defense AND although there is a lot of dakka..there is not enough when facing dropping morti with a 3++...sooo back to list building.
Morty doesn't much appreciate six Wrathbots. That is our best answer to literally everything.
Sure but he is looking for a way to play without Cawlstar and Robots without Cawl aren't that good anymore.
...but why? Our faction has so few good units, why not take the best one?
Because by the time you have the Robots to shoot, Crawl to re-roll, and bodies to screen, you've pretty much spent your points on a one-trick pony. Every game, your objective is to castle up, stand and shoot for as many turns as you can. Regardless of the missions. Regardless of the opponents. Every. Single. Game.
That's why I also want to avoid a Crawlstar. I love the Mechanicus, but I won't enjoy games where I'm repeating the same actions thing over and over again.
One-Trick Pony? Nope. More like Swiss Army Knife.
Got a Primarch? Wrathbots.
Got a nasty MC? Wrathbots.
Got a horde? Wrathbots?
Flyers? Wrathbots.
They are a worthwhile, viable answer to so, so many things. Not including Cawl and 5-6 'Bots is asking to do less well with our already mediocre faction.
Every game, your objective is to castle up, stand and shoot for as many turns as you can.
To the above, that is exactly why I have moved celestine up in priority over the dragoons. Dragoons have more combat value per point and are perhaps more durable (dubious), but celestine is the only unit I have that can move 24" and fly onto objectives behind terrain. I have 1500 points that usually doesn't and often can't move in the movement phase. Admech needs something that can fly over and play interceptor. Otherwise you end up conceding every mission objective that isn't shooting stuff. And no, infiltrators are a poor substitute for celestine's 24" movement and 2 lives (I actually got her up a third time last saturday).
Iago40k wrote: Well, Lucius bomb worked quite well against nids but as it always is, stupid close combat wrecks everything...plus my stupidity. Instead of getting my destroyers into CC I forgot to charge them and they were killed by a double shooting unit of hive guard...sadface. The usual problems occured as well: no psychic defense AND although there is a lot of dakka..there is not enough when facing dropping morti with a 3++...sooo back to list building.
Morty doesn't much appreciate six Wrathbots. That is our best answer to literally everything.
I know that but it just got boring. I got my tournament list finished and try to find other was of playing admech competitively in between. So lucius drop bots it is. For now.
axisofentropy wrote: I feel that the bots are kinda one-dimensional. I've moved back to Dark Angels
Overall that is AdMech as a whole. I haven't been playing much because the army is just a snooze.
I'm waiting for something else to really spark my interest. Currently, 40k isn't doing it for me even though I love 8th.
They have some of the best artillery, but it's no reason to go all out and have no flavor to your army. Infiltrators, Dragoons - even the infantry aren't that bad now.
axisofentropy wrote: I feel that the bots are kinda one-dimensional. I've moved back to Dark Angels
Overall that is AdMech as a whole. I haven't been playing much because the army is just a snooze.
I'm waiting for something else to really spark my interest. Currently, 40k isn't doing it for me even though I love 8th.
They have some of the best artillery, but it's no reason to go all out and have no flavor to your army. Infiltrators, Dragoons - even the infantry aren't that bad now.
I run a pretty diverse list. It still amounts to a gunline with a screen. The most dynamic elements are what you listed and the former is pretty mediocre, with Dragoons being solid but not exactly breathtaking on the battlefield.
I am hoping my Eldar can scratch the itches I have - psykers, flyers, transports, etc. Right now, AdMech are just too boring for me to play often.
LMoras wrote: Hey guys, I'm sorry if this has been answered before but which is the way to deal with the Canticles rolling when I have an Admech army with two different Forger worlds and one of them is Mars with Belisarius Cawl on it?
Is there any FAQ out there clarifying that? I could not find it. Thanks!
I've always read it that you roll single Canticles for all Ad Mech, regardless of Detachment or Forgeworld - so having a Mars would also benefit the other non-mars detachments, unless there's anything that says differently?
LMoras wrote: Hey guys, I'm sorry if this has been answered before but which is the way to deal with the Canticles rolling when I have an Admech army with two different Forger worlds and one of them is Mars with Belisarius Cawl on it?
Is there any FAQ out there clarifying that? I could not find it. Thanks!
I've always read it that you roll single Canticles for all Ad Mech, regardless of Detachment or Forgeworld - so having a Mars would also benefit the other non-mars detachments, unless there's anything that says differently?
You roll for everyone first, and then Mars while the first dice is still visible. That or use two different dice. You can +1/-1 each of the dice. (Codex says you have to do both simultaneously, so you need both results visible, but it's a headache to figure out which one was "first.")
LMoras wrote: Hey guys, I'm sorry if this has been answered before but which is the way to deal with the Canticles rolling when I have an Admech army with two different Forger worlds and one of them is Mars with Belisarius Cawl on it?
Is there any FAQ out there clarifying that? I could not find it. Thanks!
I've always read it that you roll single Canticles for all Ad Mech, regardless of Detachment or Forgeworld - so having a Mars would also benefit the other non-mars detachments, unless there's anything that says differently?
You roll for everyone first, and then Mars while the first dice is still visible. That or use two different dice. You can +1/-1 each of the dice. (Codex says you have to do both simultaneously, so you need both results visible, but it's a headache to figure out which one was "first.")
EDIT: This is probably more closely follows RAW.
All the reference to Canticles is that they are army wide - with Mars is just states that you add another cancitle, I've not read anything about this Canticle being specific to Mars Forgeworld - unless you spotted something I missed?
LMoras wrote: Hey guys, I'm sorry if this has been answered before but which is the way to deal with the Canticles rolling when I have an Admech army with two different Forger worlds and one of them is Mars with Belisarius Cawl on it?
Is there any FAQ out there clarifying that? I could not find it. Thanks!
I've always read it that you roll single Canticles for all Ad Mech, regardless of Detachment or Forgeworld - so having a Mars would also benefit the other non-mars detachments, unless there's anything that says differently?
You roll for everyone first, and then Mars while the first dice is still visible. That or use two different dice. You can +1/-1 each of the dice. (Codex says you have to do both simultaneously, so you need both results visible, but it's a headache to figure out which one was "first.")
EDIT: This is probably more closely follows RAW.
All the reference to Canticles is that they are army wide - with Mars is just states that you add another cancitle, I've not read anything about this Canticle being specific to Mars Forgeworld - unless you spotted something I missed?
The Mars dogma is to roll two dice for Canticles. Mars gets both, but the "first" one is for your army.
Whatever method you use, three elements remain:
1) Roll two dice, with one being the first dice.
2) Make decisions with both dice results visible, with the dice designated "not-first" applying only to models with the Mars dogma.
3) You can +1 or -1 to either roll, as Cawl's ability does not specific otherwise.
LMoras wrote: Hey guys, I'm sorry if this has been answered before but which is the way to deal with the Canticles rolling when I have an Admech army with two different Forger worlds and one of them is Mars with Belisarius Cawl on it?
Is there any FAQ out there clarifying that? I could not find it. Thanks!
I've always read it that you roll single Canticles for all Ad Mech, regardless of Detachment or Forgeworld - so having a Mars would also benefit the other non-mars detachments, unless there's anything that says differently?
You roll for everyone first, and then Mars while the first dice is still visible. That or use two different dice. You can +1/-1 each of the dice. (Codex says you have to do both simultaneously, so you need both results visible, but it's a headache to figure out which one was "first.")
EDIT: This is probably more closely follows RAW.
All the reference to Canticles is that they are army wide - with Mars is just states that you add another cancitle, I've not read anything about this Canticle being specific to Mars Forgeworld - unless you spotted something I missed?
The Mars dogma is to roll two dice for Canticles. Mars gets both, but the "first" one is for your army.
Whatever method you use, three elements remain:
1) Roll two dice, with one being the first dice.
2) Make decisions with both dice results visible, with the dice designated "not-first" applying only to models with the Mars dogma.
3) You can +1 or -1 to either roll, as Cawl's ability does not specific otherwise.
"All models with this dogma receive the benefits of the second roll of the cancitles well, instead of just the first". Ah yes, I see it, thx
I think it was in the admech FAQ as well. I dont remember how the re-roll the canticle strategm works with mars though, that might be in the faq as well.
Won 1st place with chaos daemons(new codex) 16ppl rtt. Fought admech game two. Easiest victory ever. Turn 1 I had 75% of the board rofl.
Poor admech ._.
Opponent lists weren't tryhard but It was my first time playing the codex daemons (or should I say Deepstrike daemons, because that's the main thing they got)
rvd1ofakind wrote: Won 1st place with chaos daemons(new codex) 16ppl rtt. Fought admech game two. Easiest victory ever. Turn 1 I had 75% of the board rofl.
Poor admech ._.
Opponent lists weren't tryhard but It was my first time playing the codex daemons (or should I say Deepstrike daemons, because that's the main thing they got)
What did they field, and what made it so easy to beat them?
rvd1ofakind wrote: Won 1st place with chaos daemons(new codex) 16ppl rtt. Fought admech game two. Easiest victory ever. Turn 1 I had 75% of the board rofl.
Poor admech ._.
Opponent lists weren't tryhard but It was my first time playing the codex daemons (or should I say Deepstrike daemons, because that's the main thing they got)
More proof that competitive imperium has 3 squads of scout marines. If you can't scout deploy, then deepstrike lists will eat you.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Won 1st place with chaos daemons(new codex) 16ppl rtt. Fought admech game two. Easiest victory ever. Turn 1 I had 75% of the board rofl.
Poor admech ._.
Opponent lists weren't tryhard but It was my first time playing the codex daemons (or should I say Deepstrike daemons, because that's the main thing they got)
More proof that competitive imperium has 3 squads of scout marines. If you can't scout deploy, then deepstrike lists will eat you.
Or maybe we should be looking at an alternative to a one-trick pony list which only works if you can keep you opponent at arms length.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Won 1st place with chaos daemons(new codex) 16ppl rtt. Fought admech game two. Easiest victory ever. Turn 1 I had 75% of the board rofl.
Poor admech ._.
Opponent lists weren't tryhard but It was my first time playing the codex daemons (or should I say Deepstrike daemons, because that's the main thing they got)
More proof that competitive imperium has 3 squads of scout marines. If you can't scout deploy, then deepstrike lists will eat you.
Or maybe we should be looking at an alternative to a one-trick pony list which only works if you can keep you opponent at arms length.
I don't think that those deepstrike list are only a problem of the Cawlstar. Say you play the classic guard gunline with lots of stuff and not just a focus on castle. You really rely on damaging the opponent before they come to you. But if they deepstrike everything and then charge you, well then you have a big problem.
@wulfey
How are you kitting out your scouts? Just with bolters to keep them cheap or sniper rifles?
rvd1ofakind wrote: Won 1st place with chaos daemons(new codex) 16ppl rtt. Fought admech game two. Easiest victory ever. Turn 1 I had 75% of the board rofl.
Poor admech ._.
Opponent lists weren't tryhard but It was my first time playing the codex daemons (or should I say Deepstrike daemons, because that's the main thing they got)
More proof that competitive imperium has 3 squads of scout marines. If you can't scout deploy, then deepstrike lists will eat you.
Or maybe we should be looking at an alternative to a one-trick pony list which only works if you can keep you opponent at arms length.
I don't think that those deepstrike list are only a problem of the Cawlstar. Say you play the classic guard gunline with lots of stuff and not just a focus on castle. You really rely on damaging the opponent before they come to you. But if they deepstrike everything and then charge you, well then you have a big problem.
@wulfey How are you kitting out your scouts? Just with bolters to keep them cheap or sniper rifles?
I think all the points in the scouts should be towards more bodies. Any upgrades feel like wastes since I have so many options that generate damage for the points (robots, neutrons, basilisk, mortars). Mine will be bare 55 point squads with possibly 2 point storm bolter upgrades if I run out of damage upgrade points elsewhere. Camo cloaks are good .. but they cost as much as another scout body and have counters and require terrain. In my mind, the scout squads are disposable screen units that I will use to charge out of LOS if they survive for a turn. Also, I don't have a space marine pure detachment so I don't have strategems or chapter tactics. So any points spent on the scouts is kind of bad. Sniper rifles seem like complete wastes. The idea of the scouts is to move and block things, not hold still and shoot. So basic bolters looks good to me. I could see the shot gun ... but then you lose some flexibility for that chance that you can get into 6" range. But then again then they can advance and shoot at 12". I could also see the argument for combat knives to maximize combat value since they are guaranteed to be in assault against an asssault army.
EDIT: balance whine mode here. A pure daemons codex army has guaranteed deep strikes and can full stop all STYGIES infiltration using 3 nurgling squads. A pure ADMECH codex army is just dead against any basic deepstriking daemons list. ADMECH has no way to space out the deepstrike since it can't 'scout'. 7 point rangers are terrible screening units against 7 point bloodletters. If you want to keep talking tactics post Eldar, Daemons, and Heretic Astartes Codexes ... you can't be talking pure admech. Pure admech isn't viable against a well made list from those codexes.
EDIT: going further, when I say pure admech, I am assuming 4-5 dakkabots and cawl. If you don't have mortal wound generation, you simply aren't in the game against opponents who can spam invulnerable saves. STYGIES -1 to be hit in shooting just doesn't matter versus daemon assault armies, primarchs who don't shoot, and dark reapers who ignore modifiers.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Won 1st place with chaos daemons(new codex) 16ppl rtt. Fought admech game two. Easiest victory ever. Turn 1 I had 75% of the board rofl.
Poor admech ._.
Opponent lists weren't tryhard but It was my first time playing the codex daemons (or should I say Deepstrike daemons, because that's the main thing they got)
What did they field, and what made it so easy to beat them?
He put 10 elysians as screen, who melted to pinks turn one. And taurox on the other side. WIth 3D6 charge I charged both tauroxes on separate sides(Despite one not being in 12' range so I couldn't punch it). On my opponents turn, all he had left to deepstrike was 50% of his deployment zone. Turn 2 I deepstrike everything else and mop up the rest. :x
My soup detachment is a company commander, inquisitor, 3 scout units and a culexus. Played 2 games versus New daemons yesterday and won both in round 2. Scouts and a culexus are a must in every imperial army. This combo shuts down a lot the daemons got to offer and of course a lot of other armies as well.
I do agree that Deep Strike seems to have become way too accessible. It was okay when it was just Tau and Guard doing it, but Webway Strike and the new Daemons are ridiculously mobile.
So what would be the cheapest way to get Scouts on the board? An Outrider with 3x Scouts led by a Primaris Psyker? That is 211 points...
But yeah, screening is all about bodies. Doesn't matter how durable they are or how good their weapons are. Their job is to absorb bullets, deny deep strike, and if they are troops, hold objectives with sheer numbers.
Suzuteo wrote: Hm. Would you guys let someone get away with running Skitarii Rangers as Scouts?
Or should I just buy 15 Bolters and 15 Boltguns attach them to some leftover Skitarii. Got lots of robes and heads left over...
I am not sure if Bolters are the way to go. The damage output is pretty meh. With combat knives they can at least do some damage in melee.
Well since my inquisitor is basically a ranger with a different head and a boltpistol plus a chainsword I certainly would give my okay for those kind of scouts. But use different colours for them
Suzuteo wrote:
They can deploy anywhere up to 9" from the enemy deployment zone.
Ah okay, so same as those Scouts. So always deploy your Scouts first!
Iago40k wrote: I am not sure if Bolters are the way to go. The damage output is pretty meh. With combat knives they can at least do some damage in melee.
Well since my inquisitor is basically a ranger with a different head and a boltpistol plus a chainsword I certainly would give my okay for those kind of scouts. But use different colours for them
Interesting idea with the knives. BTW why did you include an inquisitor to your list?
Suzuteo wrote:
They can deploy anywhere up to 9" from the enemy deployment zone.
Ah okay, so same as those Scouts. So always deploy your Scouts first!
Iago40k wrote: I am not sure if Bolters are the way to go. The damage output is pretty meh. With combat knives they can at least do some damage in melee.
Well since my inquisitor is basically a ranger with a different head and a boltpistol plus a chainsword I certainly would give my okay for those kind of scouts. But use different colours for them
Interesting idea with the knives. BTW why did you include an inquisitor to your list?
cheap HQ choice who can smite and ban 1 cast. Also terrify and dominate are awesome powers, plus his leadership bubble is verys useful. all in all a very nice choice.
Suzuteo wrote: Inquisitors aren't that cheap in my opinion, not when you can get Primaris Pyskers for 46 points and Company Commanders for 30.
Anyhow, are we sure Knives and Bolt Pistols are the ideal setup?
These are also my thoughts, that's why I asked. Also I don't know if I'm missing something, but the Guard powers seem much better then the Inquisiton's?
I don't know if we are, but I can see arguments made for both knives and bolters.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Feels like with every new Codex we slip further down the viability list. A shame, because we have such a great (small) range of models.
2018 is here and Fires hopefully isn't far off, but I lost a lot of hope after the Chapter Approved and its weird pricing for FW units.
not really. AdMech misses just some elements that we need to take from other armies, which are scouts and a culexus. you dont need a company commander but 5+/5+ for CP regen is better than just a 6 up for AdMech. You dont need an Inquisitor or Primaris Psyker (of which i think the Inquisitor is way better but thats just me). And you dont need stuff like Basilisks. You can take them, but they are not necessary (imho). But honestly those are 300 something points (so 15 - 20% of our army) with which our army jumps up at least one tier. Since the daemon codex dropped we will see this combination in a lot of imperial armies anyways so we dont have to feel that sad I reckon.
so after a few games with pure guard, i can say manticore outperform Neutronagers easily. similar damage output, but can fire from out of line of sight and much better anti heavy infantry . wiped out a squad of five terminators with one manticore. not something even possible with a neutronager. the baneblade proved surprisingly a good replacement for the kastellans with its 10 heavy bolters. are they as good as 4 or 6 kastelans deluge of shots? no but they dot he job and the baneblade battlecannon and demolisher pull heavy anti tank duty. and the 4 point cannon fodder are extremely useful. RIP admech RIP
gendoikari87 wrote: so after a few games with pure guard, i can say manticore outperform Neutronagers easily. similar damage output, but can fire from out of line of sight and much better anti heavy infantry . wiped out a squad of five terminators with one manticore. not something even possible with a neutronager. the baneblade proved surprisingly a good replacement for the kastellans with its 10 heavy bolters. are they as good as 4 or 6 kastelans deluge of shots? no but they dot he job and the baneblade battlecannon and demolisher pull heavy anti tank duty. and the 4 point cannon fodder are extremely useful. RIP admech RIP
Well comparing those two is a little bit weird imo. The manticore is an artillery and sacrifices mobility and durability compared to the Crawler, which is more of a Battletank.
I play a lots of Guard myself and when you start to encounter -1 to hit armies guard artillery really starts to fall of quite rapidly.
Regarding the wider choice of targets you are definitely right, the Neutronager has a really small selection of optimal targets.
Also I don't like the Baneblade. Sure it can deal tons of damage, but remember it's just 3+. So it won't get any or just a 6+ save against dedicated anti tank weaponry.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What's your take on the Eversor Assassin guys?
Man, if there was one determining factor that impacted my lack of motivation to paint my ad mech, it would be this thread. Kind of sad :( Went from theorycrafting and following this tactics thread to looking at other armies entirely...
My initial plans were not even close to what seems possible, with 10 man vanguard squads from 3 start collecting sets. I don’t play competitively by the damage might already be done LOL
I know everyone is waiting with hope for fires, but realistically I dont think it is going to help us as much as people think.
We are sharing the book with Red Scorpions, who should gobble up 3 -4 entries.
My guess is we get rules back for the Secutarri and Ordinatus. We will also get Thanatar rules, since they feature heavily in the previous preview presentations. We might also get those drones that the plague drones are based on to fill out our flyer slot (though for deathguard they are not even really flyers right?).
I DONT think they are going to give us transports because they would be so necessary for casual players that store owners will complain for pushing customers to forge world. They also can't give us too many units because our total list is what 13 units currently? I don't see them making FW more than 1/3 of our total army options...
Valentine009 wrote: I know everyone is waiting with hope for fires, but realistically I dont think it is going to help us as much as people think.
We are sharing the book with Red Scorpions, who should gobble up 3 -4 entries.
My guess is we get rules back for the Secutarri and Ordinatus. We will also get Thanatar rules, since they feature heavily in the previous preview presentations. We might also get those drones that the plague drones are based on to fill out our flyer slot (though for deathguard they are not even really flyers right?).
I DONT think they are going to give us transports because they would be so necessary for casual players that store owners will complain for pushing customers to forge world. They also can't give us too many units because our total list is what 13 units currently? I don't see them making FW more than 1/3 of our total army options...
Triaros images were previewed, if I recall correctly. So unless they purposefully omit them post-8th, we are getting a pretty good sized transport.
Those give us a lot more tools, if they aren't awful. Transport, another non-Cawl HQ, two more Troops (hopefully) and the Thallax and Thanatar can help with list diversity. Ordinatus will be stupid expensive, like most superheavy stuff, so not really viable for normal games (my guess).
Fires, if done well, can be our salvation as an independent faction. Without it, we are a flavoring of Soup.
OH. Well, if it counts enemy models, then we might as well go back to what we were theorizing in June and use Dominion squads. They actually pair well with Celestine...
Suzuteo wrote: OH. Well, if it counts enemy models, then we might as well go back to what we were theorizing in June and use Dominion squads. They actually pair well with Celestine...
No I don´t think so. If I understood it right then Nurglings deploy during the deployment phase but 9" away from an enemy and his deployment zone. (So like the Space Marine Scouts)
Domions have a 9" inch move at the end of the deployment, so like Scout Sentinels.
Thus he can already deploy his Nurglings so that you can´t make your scout and he secures himself a place to deepstrike.
Dominion squads don't get Concealed Positions. They get Vanguard, which is a move before the first turn. (It really sucks that we have Scouts and Vanguard that don't scout or vanguard.) Meaning you can set them up on the edge of your deployment, then move 6" up in any direction. If they are in a Rhino, it's a 12" move.
And yeah, you don't get to contest the no man's land in between deployment zones, but that's a crapshoot; if the opponent scouts first, you are just going to have to start your deployment further away. Moving your Sisters up 6" before the battle starts to deny first turn Deep Strike is pretty good too.
The reason why everyone uses scout marines is because they are troops. Troop slots generate way more CP than elite or fast attack slot choices. Nurglings are also troops. Admech has its weaknesses, but of all the codexes in imperium, MARS admech is one of the best at turning CP into damage through wrath of mars. Most imperium codexes struggle to turn CP into damage.
How have people's experiences with Infiltrators been? They appear on paper to fulfil a similar role to Kastellans, in that they are great anti-horde, and with Wrath of Mars - can unleash a decent number of Mortal Wounds.
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: How have people's experiences with Infiltrators been? They appear on paper to fulfil a similar role to Kastellans, in that they are great anti-horde, and with Wrath of Mars - can unleash a decent number of Mortal Wounds.
I think a 10 stack has a place in a competitive list if you have the CP to spare. You will need to be running some kind of admech MARS spearhead and two guard battalions to be able to afford the 3CP** you will want to spend on that infiltrator volley [having played with double battalion and 5+/5+ I am not going back down to 6 CP lists]. I am considering swapping out 2 basilisks for 10 infiltrators and relying on mortars over the big guns. The problem with the infiltrators is that they are vulnerable to good screening, instantly die to incidental volume of fire weapons found on every vehicle in the game, and compete with robots for CP and for once a turn wrath of mars. I do think they can be viable tho if you aren't running basilisks. They add 1 guaranteed turn of 50 wrath of mars shots that can hit something your robots can't.
** You will want to use the +1 to hit strategem for skitarii infantry and have the reroll 1s to hit in the shooting phase canticle up when the infiltrators drop. This will surprise opponents who rely on negative modifiers.
gendoikari87 wrote: so after a few games with pure guard, i can say manticore outperform Neutronagers easily. similar damage output, but can fire from out of line of sight and much better anti heavy infantry . wiped out a squad of five terminators with one manticore. not something even possible with a neutronager. the baneblade proved surprisingly a good replacement for the kastellans with its 10 heavy bolters. are they as good as 4 or 6 kastelans deluge of shots? no but they dot he job and the baneblade battlecannon and demolisher pull heavy anti tank duty. and the 4 point cannon fodder are extremely useful. RIP admech RIP
Well comparing those two is a little bit weird imo. The manticore is an artillery and sacrifices mobility and durability compared to the Crawler, which is more of a Battletank.
I play a lots of Guard myself and when you start to encounter -1 to hit armies guard artillery really starts to fall of quite rapidly.
Regarding the wider choice of targets you are definitely right, the Neutronager has a really small selection of optimal targets.
Also I don't like the Baneblade. Sure it can deal tons of damage, but remember it's just 3+. So it won't get any or just a 6+ save against dedicated anti tank weaponry.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What's your take on the Eversor Assassin guys?
i was actually playing an alpha legion player. -1 to hit armies have a achillies heel in guard, it's called Cadia and the Overlapping fields of fire strategem
gendoikari87 wrote: i was actually playing an alpha legion player. -1 to hit armies have a achillies heel in guard, it's called Cadia and the Overlapping fields of fire strategem
2CP is a really heavy price to pay to kill one unit of something Alpha Legion.
It also just works on a single unit, so your lascannons have to shoot at the same target as your HBs.
Rule question regarding the inclusion of Infiltrators:
Atm I have 3 detachments in my list: Lucius spearhead, Cadian battalion and Imperial soup battalion.
If I include a unit of infiltrators to the soup battalion can I use the Wrath of Mars stratagem on them? (I know that canticles won't work)
lash92 wrote: It also just works on a single unit, so your lascannons have to shoot at the same target as your HBs.
Rule question regarding the inclusion of Infiltrators:
Atm I have 3 detachments in my list: Lucius spearhead, Cadian battalion and Imperial soup battalion.
If I include a unit of infiltrators to the soup battalion can I use the Wrath of Mars stratagem on them? (I know that canticles won't work)
Yes. Canticles require every unit in a detachment to have Canticles. Dogmas require every unit in a detachment to have the same Forge World. Stratagems require you to have a detachment of AdMech that is not an Auxiliary detachment. Note that you do NOT need a detachment from a Forge World to use a Forge World's stratagem, so if you bring a Mars Spearhead and Stygies Auxiliary, you can still use the Stygies stratagems.
That being said, Wrath of Mars on Infiltrators is ballsy, given how close you need to be and how you probably won't get any rerolls...
Ok thanks.
Well with the Protector Doctrina Imperative Stratagem you really don´t need rerolls, cause you will be hitting on 2+. Sure rerolling 1´s would help, but I´m not quite sure if I want to include the infiltrators to my Lucius detachment, cause I would lose their dogma. (granted it´s not the best one, but it might help, especially my deepstriking Vanguard).
Plus it´s as far as i know the only really good way of spamming some mortal wounds if you aren´t running Cawl + Dakkabots.
So guys what do you think of my semi-competitive take on the imperial soup. (I´m working with the models I have atm and I´m reluctant to use Cawl ^^)
#Cadian Battallion
- 2 Company Commander (5+/5+ CP regain)
- 3 x Infantry Squad with Lascanon and Plasma
- 2 x Heavy Weapon Squad with mortars
# Soup Battallion
- Celestine with 2x Geminae
- Primaris Psyker
- 3 x 5 Scouts
- Culexus Assassin
- 10 Mars Infiltrators (might wander into the Lucius Spearhead)
# Lucius Spearhead
- TPD
- 2x Neutron Onager
- 1x Icarus Onager
- 2 x 10 Vanguard without upgrades (yet)
That leaves me with about 200 points more to spend, which I could use for:
- another Vanguard squad (maybe also add some plasma dudes)
- more Guardsman
- some Eversor Assassins?
LegioX217 wrote: Man, if there was one determining factor that impacted my lack of motivation to paint my ad mech, it would be this thread. Kind of sad :( Went from theorycrafting and following this tactics thread to looking at other armies entirely...
My initial plans were not even close to what seems possible, with 10 man vanguard squads from 3 start collecting sets. I don’t play competitively by the damage might already be done LOL
Don't worry, if you dont play in tournaments and just play with friends or a local group, most of the doom and gloom in this thread is over hyped. They're not wrong, but for the most part these scenarios assume the participants dont care whether each other has a good time or not. I really have to try hard to remembering that most of the people I play with may implement aspects of these heavily competitive lists, but they generally find the full blown versions tedious and very dry.
It's REALLY difficult to get some advice from this thread where you actually want to field something cool AND competitive. Which is frustrating for the minority of non tourney people trying to determine where they want to take their army next. Again, all the stuff they say is right, but the context they're applying it to isnt as prevalent outside of tournaments as they might have you think. You only have to go through the batrep videos on Youtube to see that most of those games are very far from competitive by tournament standards.
You just have to try and combine the advice with your desire for a cool army and temper it with some tournament tricks to give you an edge
I'm getting me some stick priests next to give me some melee oomph, and i may consider trying to infiltrate some fistellans to put the cat amongst the pidgins lol
Why don't you try having fun vs all armies loosing badly in every single friendly game. You know how to write firendly games and fun but I don't see anyone having fun loosing game after game. Nor anyone coming here to get advice on bad strategies.
We are gloomy cause we where saying 200 times about the issues ad mech has from the disigners and codex just to see them fixed on all other armies than us. From new units to revamping old ones to codex faq etc. Ad mech had a nice point decrease and that's it.
Anything with a decent melee unit able to run charge in one round not having to walk the table destroyed you army now days.
If you like it and have fun with it then just write about it.
lash92 wrote: Ok thanks. Well with the Protector Doctrina Imperative Stratagem you really don´t need rerolls, cause you will be hitting on 2+. Sure rerolling 1´s would help, but I´m not quite sure if I want to include the infiltrators to my Lucius detachment, cause I would lose their dogma. (granted it´s not the best one, but it might help, especially my deepstriking Vanguard). Plus it´s as far as i know the only really good way of spamming some mortal wounds if you aren´t running Cawl + Dakkabots.
So guys what do you think of my semi-competitive take on the imperial soup. (I´m working with the models I have atm and I´m reluctant to use Cawl ^^)
#Cadian Battallion - 2 Company Commander (5+/5+ CP regain) - 3 x Infantry Squad with Lascanon and Plasma - 2 x Heavy Weapon Squad with mortars
# Soup Battallion - Celestine with 2x Geminae - Primaris Psyker - 3 x 5 Scouts - Culexus Assassin - 10 Mars Infiltrators (might wander into the Lucius Spearhead)
# Lucius Spearhead - TPD - 2x Neutron Onager - 1x Icarus Onager - 2 x 10 Vanguard without upgrades (yet)
That leaves me with about 200 points more to spend, which I could use for:
- another Vanguard squad (maybe also add some plasma dudes) - more Guardsman - some Eversor Assassins?
So yeah, what do you think?
I would take mortars and no special weapons on the guardsmen squads. They are 100% going to die first or second turn. You won't get more than 2 shots out of those 20 point lascannons (and movement will kill their utility and guardsmen squads will be expected to move). The mortar has the virtue of being 5 points to deny THE REAPER secondaries and always has useful targets and has more consistent hitting on 5+. Plasma calivers on your lucius squads would more consistently deliver damage than the lascannons (due to possibility of deepstrike). And yes, good job taking the MARS infiltrator bomb. Remember to give them +1 to hit iif you have the CP. If you wanted to shave points then the second geminae isn't super necessary ... but she will really up celestine's durability versus lascannons/d6 damage attacks. Some dark angels guys on the facebook threads were talking up shotguns on their scouts. Consider having 1 shotgun squad so you can have 1 squad that deploys closer to enemy lines.
Agreed with Wulfey. If you bring Guard units, make them cheap with Mortars. I still am not sure if Infiltrators can deliver. So many other things have better charge consistency, melee, and shooting than them.
Shotguns. Hm. interesting. I forgot about those entirely, and conceptually, they make sense, albeit grim. (No need for knives because they won't live for more than one turn anyway!)
Plus, the conversion opportunity would be nice. I could make some cut up some Galvanic Rifles and make some interesting neo-barbarian Martian shotguns. Stick em on Skitarii Vanguard, paint the robes gunmetal black, and call them my Scout Marines. Hope nobody gives me crap for not having pauldrons or visible Bolt Pistols...
Okay I understand that you want your Guard to be cheap, but why just don´t give them a Plasma Gun instead of a Mortar? It´s 7 vs 5 points, but you can fire on the move without penalty.
Regarding Infiltrators: I haven´t tested them yet, it´s more of a theorycrafting thing and I will have to about 2 weeks before my next game... But if you can provide me another option (excluding Cawl + bots) to deal with high invulns (looking at you Magnus) I would gladly listen.
So if I strip the Guardsman of upgrades and add Plasma to my Vanguard I still have about 200 points to spend....
So what would you add?
- more Guard bodies
- more melee power in form of assassins
- or another vanguard squad (but without plasma, because I haven´t got that many plasma dudes...)
Neutronagers are never a waste of points. They have ways of finding a good target and they draw fire like crazy. They feel inconsistent individually, but as a team of 3 they get consistent results.
EDIT: neutronagers get more respect from non-admech players than they should. People consistently try to kill them over the robots ... which is odd.
Wulfey wrote: Neutronagers are never a waste of points. They have ways of finding a good target and they draw fire like crazy. They feel inconsistent individually, but as a team of 3 they get consistent results.
EDIT: neutronagers get more respect from non-admech players than they should. People consistently try to kill them over the robots ... which is odd.
In my local games people completely ignore robots first turn because theyre too hard to hit/kill compared to the rest of the army, if you dont go first that is. T7, 6 wounds, 1+/4++ saves, reflectable mortal wounds and, if youre running them stygies, -1 to hit as well. With them under aegis protocols there are just so many easier targets until theyre in full dakka mode. Plus they know if they can get rid of any screen you have or sneak flyers in or whatever they can be tied up in combat easier than they can be shot off the board.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hmmm i was just reading the wording for shroudpsalm and something occured to me: RAW shroudpsalm gives you your cover save in melee as well:
Affected units gain the bonus to their armour saving throws as if they were in cover. Units already in cover are unaffected.
Bold emphasis is mine. As if they were in cover. It doesnt say they get a cover save, it says they get the bonus as if they were in cover. They get a bonus to saving throws, not a cover save. Am I reading too much into this?
lash92 wrote: Okay I understand that you want your Guard to be cheap, but why just don´t give them a Plasma Gun instead of a Mortar? It´s 7 vs 5 points, but you can fire on the move without penalty.
Regarding Infiltrators: I haven´t tested them yet, it´s more of a theorycrafting thing and I will have to about 2 weeks before my next game... But if you can provide me another option (excluding Cawl + bots) to deal with high invulns (looking at you Magnus) I would gladly listen.
So if I strip the Guardsman of upgrades and add Plasma to my Vanguard I still have about 200 points to spend....
So what would you add?
- more Guard bodies
- more melee power in form of assassins
- or another vanguard squad (but without plasma, because I haven´t got that many plasma dudes...)
My Cadian Guardsmen rarely move; it's sort of the opposite purpose of their function. Hell, most don't ever fire a Lasgun before getting wiped. I guess if you do MT Guardsmen, it's a good tradeoff.
The Stygies list I posted uses 6x Lascannon Ballistarii with PDI and 3x Icarus Crawlers. But Cawlstar is the gold standard for a reason.
I echo Wulfey. Either an Icarus or Neutron Crawler.
Wulfey wrote: Neutronagers are never a waste of points. They have ways of finding a good target and they draw fire like crazy. They feel inconsistent individually, but as a team of 3 they get consistent results.
EDIT: neutronagers get more respect from non-admech players than they should. People consistently try to kill them over the robots ... which is odd.
In my local games people completely ignore robots first turn because theyre too hard to hit/kill compared to the rest of the army, if you dont go first that is. T7, 6 wounds, 1+/4++ saves, reflectable mortal wounds and, if youre running them stygies, -1 to hit as well. With them under aegis protocols there are just so many easier targets until theyre in full dakka mode. Plus they know if they can get rid of any screen you have or sneak flyers in or whatever they can be tied up in combat easier than they can be shot off the board.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hmmm i was just reading the wording for shroudpsalm and something occured to me: RAW shroudpsalm gives you your cover save in melee as well:
Affected units gain the bonus to their armour saving throws as if they were in cover. Units already in cover are unaffected.
Bold emphasis is mine. As if they were in cover. It doesnt say they get a cover save, it says they get the bonus as if they were in cover. They get a bonus to saving throws, not a cover save. Am I reading too much into this?
Yeah. In lower point count games, giving up Wrath of Mars for Stygies and a Dominus is a solid option. Hopefully, Cyraxus gives us another HQ option...
You're reading too much into it. Ask yourself: If you were in cover, would you get a bonus to your save in melee?
It's funny how we're quite willing to subvert the rules for stuff like using a strategm from another faction to acquire relics from two different armies and we're ok with pulling apart every single word of everything to gain the smallest advantage. Yet in this particular case, i'm reading too much into it
As if in cover. It. Is. not. a. cover. save.
We dont know what shroudpsalm does. All we have are the rules we're given in the context and wording they are given. For all we know shroudpsalm scrambles the optical nerves/circuits meaning they cant see properly through the signal disruption between receptior and brain. Distance could be irrelevant.
More ambiguous wording has been leveraged for advantage thats for sure.
But I agree you'd have to be the most desperate for an advantage to push the issue and get away with it and your opponent would immediate launch some sort of tirade across the internets lol
Got any finalised lists yet? I have to say despite the occasional doom and gloom I do enjoy the back and forth of tweaking and problem solving.
Good luck to those involved
Too busy this year with my not-hobbies. =(
I honestly have no idea what to run... so hard to fit everything in without sacrificing stuff.
Octovol wrote: It's funny how we're quite willing to subvert the rules for stuff like using a strategm from another faction to acquire relics from two different armies and we're ok with pulling apart every single word of everything to gain the smallest advantage. Yet in this particular case, i'm reading too much into it
If we hung onto literal phrasing that strictly, Scryerskull would let you make one unit shoot once each phase for 1 CP. =P
Heavy Support - 324 1x Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter
1x Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter
1x Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter
Mars Spearhead Detachment - 1322
HQ - 240 1x Belisarius Cawl
Heavy Support - 810 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
5x Kastelan Robots - 3x Heavy Phosphor Blasters
Fast Attack - 272 4x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
Total: 1999 points 8 Command Points
The HQs are split up this way for WYSIWYG purposes. Company Commanders don't really need rerolls anyway. But I guess now they can give each other orders, which sounds hilarious. I decided not to drop Dragoons because we still need something to grab objectives, and 92 points for another 2 CP seems a bit greedy.
I need to make them and the Psyker, sigh. The build list never ends. (All my infantry are still in base coats. It's sad.)
I am thinking of converting some Scouts by giving Vanguard some hacked down carbines for shotguns. Paint the robes metallic black. Maybe give them pauldrons to cement the fact that they are Space Marines on an AdMech-supported Warrior's Pilgrimage or something.
Would love to see a photo of your army if you get a chance.
Scouts seem fun have you gone with ultramarines?
Chapter doesn't matter since the scouts are in a mixed imperium detachment and hence don't benefit from chapter tactics.
Yeah... in terms of fluff, I like the idea of disgraced suicidal Scouts outfitted with crazy biotics too.
But as I said, I would likely paint them like Iron Hands: black, silver, gunmetal.
Octovol wrote: I really hope we get rules for secutarii in fires, and that they make them as interesting as they were in 7th.
Yes! I made a batch for a Domistar in small games back when I was starting out. (It was really dirty, but also really fun.) Maybe an aura that gives +1T to infantry standing nearby? Or at the very least, a cover save.
I would have to repaint mine though... I have a sky blue color scheme now. Plus, I did a pretty meh job because they were among my first tries. Definitely learned that a wet palette and aggressive thinning is not optional if you want your guys not to look like goop.
Okay guys. I got my list pretty much ready but i want to switch my Rangers and Vanguard into 3 infantry units. Usually i wont do this but Our Meta is very shining spears heavy. Therefore i need to fill space.
Mars Spearhead
Cawl
5 dakkastelans 2 Icarus onager
Heavy Support - 324 1x Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter 1x Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter 1x Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter
Mars Spearhead Detachment - 1322
HQ - 240 1x Belisarius Cawl
Heavy Support - 810 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether 5x Kastelan Robots - 3x Heavy Phosphor Blasters
Fast Attack - 272 4x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
Total: 1999 points 8 Command Points
The HQs are split up this way for WYSIWYG purposes. Company Commanders don't really need rerolls anyway. But I guess now they can give each other orders, which sounds hilarious. I decided not to drop Dragoons because we still need something to grab objectives, and 92 points for another 2 CP seems a bit greedy.
EDIT: Adding error sigh.
And now you see why I ended up going away from the dragoons. I really wanted them badly. But damn if that last 50 points hurts. They are necessary for your list to work. You may not ~need~ 3 scout units. 2 may be enough. But if the other guy has oblits, you will be glad you have those scouts. And the daemon 3d6 charge bombs will ruin you if you don't have scouts.
EDIT: and my last two scout boxes just got in the mail today. I am thinking 1x bolters, 1x knives, 1x shotguns
Wulfey wrote: And now you see why I ended up going away from the dragoons. I really wanted them badly. But damn if that last 50 points hurts. They are necessary for your list to work. You may not ~need~ 3 scout units. 2 may be enough. But if the other guy has oblits, you will be glad you have those scouts. And the daemon 3d6 charge bombs will ruin you if you don't have scouts.
EDIT: and my last two scout boxes just got in the mail today. I am thinking 1x bolters, 1x knives, 1x shotguns
Yeah. Fortunately, I don't own a Celestine, so I had some spare points. In the end though, I had priorities, and I just barely met them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So I am trying to plan conversions, and I was wondering if anyone can confirm for me the following:
1) Does a Tactical Marine torso line up with Skitarii legs?
2) Do Tactical Marine pauldrons fit over Skitarii shoulders? (I am going to assume that I need to GS this in place.)
Wulfey wrote: And now you see why I ended up going away from the dragoons. I really wanted them badly. But damn if that last 50 points hurts. They are necessary for your list to work. You may not ~need~ 3 scout units. 2 may be enough. But if the other guy has oblits, you will be glad you have those scouts. And the daemon 3d6 charge bombs will ruin you if you don't have scouts.
EDIT: and my last two scout boxes just got in the mail today. I am thinking 1x bolters, 1x knives, 1x shotguns
Yeah. Fortunately, I don't own a Celestine, so I had some spare points. In the end though, I had priorities, and I just barely met them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So I am trying to plan conversions, and I was wondering if anyone can confirm for me the following:
1) Does a Tactical Marine torso line up with Skitarii legs?
2) Do Tactical Marine pauldrons fit over Skitarii shoulders? (I am going to assume that I need to GS this in place.)
Personally ALL marine body parts are way too big for any kind of skitarii conversion. They look like some sort of lumbering frankenstein when you stick the chunkier parts on. Aelf/Aeldari proportions suit them better but the styling is kinda all wrong. Dark eldar work pretty well in a kind of mechanically depraved way lol
Okay hm. Guess I will stick to the Skitarii torsos and legs then. My Guardsmen are using Anvil torsos and legs, so they will be shorter than the Marines, Secutarii, and true Skitarii.
I'd love comments and criticism from you fine adepts.
Very curious to see how those deepstriking Punchbots do. I love them in concept, but don't have enough bots to try them out yet. Hell, with 4 flamers, in the right scenario facing down a horde, you could even switch to Protector and get 8D6 flamer hits out them.
I'd love comments and criticism from you fine adepts.
Very curious to see how those deepstriking Punchbots do. I love them in concept, but don't have enough bots to try them out yet. Hell, with 4 flamers, in the right scenario facing down a horde, you could even switch to Protector and get 8D6 flamer hits out them.
Yeah I'm super stoked to try them out. Previously there was a knight who filled the same role in the list (rest of the list was identical otherwise). Doing some pretty minimal mathhammer the flamers did similar damage as the knight's avenger assault cannon to t7+. T6 and multiwound models was the only place the Avenger assault cannon excelled.
In close combat, the knight isn't even close. The bots putting out 12 S10 Ap-3 Dmg 3 beats either the knights stomp or the reaper chain sword. Coupled with deepstriking them in and the way better overwatch the fistellans should work as a really nice swiss army knife type unit.
I'd love comments and criticism from you fine adepts.
Interesting idea but I see some problems.
1) You got very little bodies to screen and no way to deny deepstrike
2) Why do you take two Culexus?
3) 2 snipers alone aren't just not viable
4) you got just 7 CP but are in need of so much more. 1 for deepstriking robots, 2 for changing protocols on both units, Wrath of Mars cost 2 CP each time you use it, plus you want to boost your dragoons.
Just completed my first game with my Admech army. (Still in its infancy) I lost due to bad deployment and being las and plasma nuked off the board by a dark angels player.
Was a fun game but has confirmed everyone’s wisdom that Knights are a bit squishy.
Good thing is nobody seems to object to bringing one in the first place - every cloud...
I swear GW is not content until it takes all my money. I cannot stop thinking about fielding some of those Custodes jet bikes alongside my Dragoons now. Just a field of charging lances.
kinetoscopic wrote: I swear GW is not content until it takes all my money. I cannot stop thinking about fielding some of those Custodes jet bikes alongside my Dragoons now. Just a field of charging lances.
Haha I feel you man.
It also seems like Custodes could really pair well with AdMech. I´m just interested how much points their stuff will cost.
I'd love comments and criticism from you fine adepts.
Interesting idea but I see some problems.
1) You got very little bodies to screen and no way to deny deepstrike
2) Why do you take two Culexus?
3) 2 snipers alone aren't just not viable
4) you got just 7 CP but are in need of so much more. 1 for deepstriking robots, 2 for changing protocols on both units, Wrath of Mars cost 2 CP each time you use it, plus you want to boost your dragoons.
Just my 2 cents
Played this list a few times now. It's doing pretty well considering what I thought it's disadvantages would be.
1) dragoons can screen if needed, but yes, it does lack some screening. Still not a huge problem I've found. (Played against a demon khorne bomb and it was manageable.)
2) one culexus can be deployed in front of everything to mess with first turn smites and especially magnuses 2d6 smite. The other can still deepstrike and cause problems. They always perform excellent and are super useful for holding objectives out of the way. I used to take one, now I won't play without two.
3) the arquebuses are not great, but against demons and guard they are fantastic. So I'll take em despite some of obviously bad matchups.
4) I'm gonna be running soup. Warlord with monitor malevolus means I'm almost always running with 8-9 cps available. I've had a few games I've won with cps left over...
Not saying this is the best list by any means, but this is I feel the best "pure" admech list. (Yes I have 3 assassin's lol)
axisofentropy wrote: I feel that the bots are kinda one-dimensional. I've moved back to Dark Angels
Overall that is AdMech as a whole. I haven't been playing much because the army is just a snooze.
I'm waiting for something else to really spark my interest. Currently, 40k isn't doing it for me even though I love 8th.
They have some of the best artillery, but it's no reason to go all out and have no flavor to your army. Infiltrators, Dragoons - even the infantry aren't that bad now.
I run a pretty diverse list. It still amounts to a gunline with a screen. The most dynamic elements are what you listed and the former is pretty mediocre, with Dragoons being solid but not exactly breathtaking on the battlefield.
I am hoping my Eldar can scratch the itches I have - psykers, flyers, transports, etc. Right now, AdMech are just too boring for me to play often.
Eldar can scratch all your itches. They've used every single one of those things to kill my Admech.
Harlequins turn 1:
Deep strike at 9 inches
Extra move from psyker
Advance, and still be able to charge (Rising Crescendo)
Melta pistols into X unit
Charge into Y unit
After killing said unit with 4 attacks per model, pile in to the next one
Then it's the 20 man squad of 3-different fire mode missile guys. That always hit on 3+ because of their rules.
Apparently Magnus gets no more rerolls for 1's, but in return Thousand Sons get a spell which grants a -1 to hit.
That should make dealing with him quite more problematic...
lash92 wrote: Apparently Magnus gets no more rerolls for 1's, but in return Thousand Sons get a spell which grants a -1 to hit.
That should make dealing with him quite more problematic...
Not really unless it stacks with Changeling. Because he was already usually under the -1 bubble for that, which we can still handle with six Wrathbots. On averages, it drops him in one round.
The difference with it is that he can cast it on his self and then warptime in your zone. The changling required him to be near by.
Ah, then it is mostly irrelevant to us. Changeling was to hinder that first turn incoming fire before Magnus hard charged in anyhow. So nothing really changes for us - we just put a strong screen that he can't get around or be thinned by the army and shoot him off the board in one turn. The -1 was something we always factored in.
Ideasweasel wrote: What’s your army list looking like for Admech em en oh pee what are you taking with those 6 dakabots? (Is 5 enough to drop Magnus?)
I remember you saying your not playing much...but if you were what’s your theory list comprised of?
Since my hobby drive died a few months ago, I haven't had the want to get my custom Guard contingent built and painted. Hell, I am still formulating how to kitbash them. BUT, if I was going to do it and get it on the table, it would look something like this:
Mars Speadhead
HQ:
Cawl
[240]
Heavy:
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & CHS, Extra CHS
[145]
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & CHS, Extra CHS
[145]
(5) Kastelan Robots
Triple Phosphor
[550]
[1070]
Stygies Outrider
HQ:
Techpriest Enginseer
[47]
Fast Attack:
(4) Sydonian Dragoons
[272]
Ironstrider Ballistarii
[95]
Ironstrider Ballistarii
[95]
[509]
Cadian Battalion
HQ:
Company Commander
Kurov's Aquila
[30]
Company Commander
Grand Strategist
[30]
Troops:
Infantry Squad
Mortar
[45]
Infantry Squad
Mortar
[45]
Infantry Squad
Mortar
[45]
Heavy:
Basilisk
HB [108]
Basilisk
HB [108]
[411]
[2000]
Not looking to deviate beyond the two factions. The big wild card would be the Ironstriders. Using them to fill out the Outrider and give me a bit more long-range punch. Not sure they are worth it, but the list is mostly just a concept. I don't own the Guard or the Ironstriders at the moment.
May be worth killing the Stygies detachment to buff both other detachment. Adding an Icarus and another Robot to Mars, more artillery to the Cadians.
But as of right now, I am focused on buying my Eldar stuff. That faction at least has loads of options. Maybe Fires will rekindle my fire for AdMech.
Ideasweasel wrote: What’s your army list looking like for Admech em en oh pee what are you taking with those 6 dakabots? (Is 5 enough to drop Magnus?)
I remember you saying your not playing much...but if you were what’s your theory list comprised of?
Since my hobby drive died a few months ago, I haven't had the want to get my custom Guard contingent built and painted. Hell, I am still formulating how to kitbash them. BUT, if I was going to do it and get it on the table, it would look something like this:
Mars Speadhead
HQ:
Cawl
[240]
Heavy:
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & CHS, Extra CHS
[145]
Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & CHS, Extra CHS
[145]
(5) Kastelan Robots
Triple Phosphor
[550]
[1070]
Stygies Outrider
HQ:
Techpriest Enginseer
[47]
Fast Attack:
(4) Sydonian Dragoons
[272]
Ironstrider Ballistarii
[95]
Ironstrider Ballistarii
[95]
[509]
Cadian Battalion
HQ:
Company Commander
Kurov's Aquila
[30]
Company Commander
Grand Strategist
[30]
Troops:
Infantry Squad
Mortar
[45]
Infantry Squad
Mortar
[45]
Infantry Squad
Mortar
[45]
Heavy:
Basilisk
HB [108]
Basilisk
HB [108]
[411]
[2000]
Not looking to deviate beyond the two factions. The big wild card would be the Ironstriders. Using them to fill out the Outrider and give me a bit more long-range punch. Not sure they are worth it, but the list is mostly just a concept. I don't own the Guard or the Ironstriders at the moment.
May be worth killing the Stygies detachment to buff both other detachment. Adding an Icarus and another Robot to Mars, more artillery to the Cadians.
But as of right now, I am focused on buying my Eldar stuff. That faction at least has loads of options. Maybe Fires will rekindle my fire for AdMech.
Looks nice. If I had the money I would buy a Harlequins army. So cool. And a 1k sons army, and tyranids and so on and so on
For me it ins't about money, but motivation. Even my Eldar is dragging. I bought a bunch of stuff and it is sitting in box in my studio. I have a fickle muse, though.
I am sure that list isn't optimal, but it has a lot of good assets. Really though, I am just holding out a bit of hope for Fires and if that doesn't deliver, I may well sell my AdMech. Hard to be passionate about such a boring army.
For me, it's just time. Not enough of it. I have one Crawler top and 15 Scouts to build and paint, 30 Guardsmen and 15 Skitarii to paint... need to buy a Primaris Psyker too.
I had an intense game against Nurgle Daemons/Death Guard today. Guy deep struck Mortarion and Rotigus, had some chaff on the board.
"I see Mortarion, and the gloves come off" is what I told the guy. I ran my 2k points Mars double battalion, with Belisarius Cawl of course. 4 Dakka bots, 2 Neutronagers, some Skitarii, 2 Dragoons, squad of 8 infiltrators, 1 squad of three Kataphrons with plasma, 2 Ranger squads, one with 2 TUAs, 3 Vanguard squads, 2 HQ techpriests and 1 dominus to round it all out.
I mean really, I've seen much nastier Admech lists than this. Granted its not sporting, but neither is deep striking Mortarion and Rotigus. He also had some blight lord terminators, a few psykers here and there. It was a good game, a close game at a couple points. The good old dakka bot squad came through for me as did the Neutronagers as always. Cawl is himself quite the beast. It had been a while since I had played my Admech army, and honestly I was glad I brought it today. If I had my BT army with my I would have gotten stomped hard core.
In the end, I had a decent amount of models on the field and he had 1 squad of Plague Marines left. Felt good to be able to have a game where I was confident I could compete. Lately, every game I had with my marines felt like a struggle to do anything. This went much smoother.
Anyway, 8th position was a well known UK player who wins a lot of tournaments, running a list which looks identical to many posted up here. I was surprised to see
a) this very competitive player take the "uncompetitive" admech, and
b) a list which looks like the kind of thing I could field!
His skill level will have made a big difference, I am sure.
Anyway here's the list.
Mars Batallion Cawl
Techpriest Enginseer (warlord) with Chorister Technis
3 x 5 skitarii rangers, no upgrades
4 x Dakka Kastelans
1 xNeuron laser Onager Dunecrawler
Stygies VIII Outrider Techpriest Enginseer
4 x Sydonian Dragoons with taser lance and phosphor serpenta and BSDT
1 x Sydonian Dragoon with taser lance and BSDT
1 x Sydonian Dragoon with taser lance and BSDT
Super Heavy Aux Knight Crusader - Thermal Cannon, Gatling Cannon, Stormspear missiles
The rest of my comment vanished for some reason. Thanks for letting us know. Cool to see a list with a knight n it. Was his TPD the cheap option (125) or whatever it is?
The rest of my comment vanished for some reason. Thanks for letting us know. Cool to see a list with a knight n it. Was his TPD the cheap option (125) or whatever it is?
Well noticed - updated the list - there's no Dominus, they are both enginseers.
Seeing a couple of lists lately with 5-7 flyrants etc.: What tools can lower enemies invul saves? I know there is null zone but thats a lot of points for 1 HQ. Anyone got a better idea?
Iago40k wrote: Seeing a couple of lists lately with 5-7 flyrants etc.: What tools can lower enemies invul saves? I know there is null zone but thats a lot of points for 1 HQ. Anyone got a better idea?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Wonder why the Enginseer was the Warlord. Figured the bigger aura on Cawl would've been better but I guess he wasn't buffing as much as he could.
I definitely wouldn't look too hard at the list though. I'm calling it a fluke.
Well he just needed to fit in 4 Robots and 1 Crawler.
Surprised by the list. A lone Knight and a lone Crawler? Weird. The Dragoon setup is interesting. This honestly looks like a pre-Codex list. Crusader was a great deal because your shooting could remove threats from the board early on, after which the Knight became unstoppable,
Game 1 against the IG He said he had deep striking units at the deployment stage, so I set up a nice big anti DS spread, being able to advance a short distance maintaining this whilst claiming an extra objective (plus 2 in deployment).
We rolled Cloak and Dagger, putting him at -2 to hit and I chose the longest deployments possible
All was going well, I managed to ping & whittle off 40 Guardsmen, 2 LRBT and a Chimera, before he busted one of my vanguard squads, breaking the anti DS bubble (and another Vanguard squad on 2 men left being heroes!).
Then he brought in bloodletters via DS... The letters in my back line, with their fight twice strat proceeded to rip me apart and I "lost". After the game I pointed out his list was illegal as it's not battleforged (required for matched play and the command points he used), and you can't have Cadians & Daemons... I registered it as a win to myself with no objection from my opponent after that.
I played 2 more games which were both against the Orks and both went horribly similar, both had the long deployments as before
Orks came forward, some by vehicles, some on foot and all met the same fate... across both Ork games I lost my infiltrators and one of the ranger squads (game 1) and 6 vanguard (in the other)...
A very special moment came when my infiltrators thought a warboss in mega armour was bein a pansy at the back, appear 9" away, open up with the flechette and put 3 wounds on him, charge 11" and kill him before he can swing back; my opponent looked down at the dice and just saw Another moment came in the same turn, the unit that had charged and killed the 5 rangers consolidated into an onager (put there to block access to the TPD), the onager fell back and I moved a unit of vanguard around, chose the canticle for +1S (at the start of the player turn), shot, decimated, then charged with wounding now on 3s against the orks because of the rad poisoning, wiping out from 30 to all but 8 left!
Whilst it wasn't a competitive WAAC weekend by any means, it was my first forays into 8th (I played from 2nd to 6th, and stopped for 7th) and thoroughly enjoyed it!
I can see how the criticisms in the thread have come to be, and transports would be nice giving options instead of just gunline, and I don't know if the Omnissiah was just on my side but I found that just the volumes of dice the vanguard generate and a bit of careful choice in canticle (where you can, I didn't use a single canticle more than once in a game meaning I was trying to pick and choose at the right times in advance, never allowing the random chance), with Nonagers to scare the out of vehicles was great fun tactically and competitive at this weekend.
The Nid player was the only other one to win his 3 games... he's told me he's coming for me soon to determine the ultimate showdown of ultimate destiny! I'm going to play the same list for fairness (as is he), but my painting table does now have 4 Dakkastellans on it with Daddy Cawl.
Iago40k wrote: Seeing a couple of lists lately with 5-7 flyrants etc.: What tools can lower enemies invul saves? I know there is null zone but thats a lot of points for 1 HQ. Anyone got a better idea?
Mortal wounds.
Yeah well if thats all then we are doomed. I was looking for something more here.
Suzuteo wrote: Surprised by the list. A lone Knight and a lone Crawler? Weird. The Dragoon setup is interesting. This honestly looks like a pre-Codex list. Crusader was a great deal because your shooting could remove threats from the board early on, after which the Knight became unstoppable,
You can do great things with a knight...if you dont have to play against Eldar nowadays. There are very few lists that take any anti tank so with good match ups I can see how he got that far.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Wonder why the Enginseer was the Warlord. Figured the bigger aura on Cawl would've been better but I guess he wasn't buffing as much as he could.
I definitely wouldn't look too hard at the list though. I'm calling it a fluke.
It's not a fluke. The guy is part of ETC Team England, is currently #3 rated UK player in the ITC rankings and when the results of this one are submitted, he is likely to be #1. Won the first UK tournament of 8th edition with Stormravens as well.
it's pretty hard to fluke 5-0 and two 20-0 wins as well!
Would love to have watched the games to see how he deployed and screened.
Iago40k wrote: Seeing a couple of lists lately with 5-7 flyrants etc.: What tools can lower enemies invul saves? I know there is null zone but thats a lot of points for 1 HQ. Anyone got a better idea?
Mortal wounds.
Yeah well if thats all then we are doomed. I was looking for something more here.
We have one of the best, most reliable means of dishing them out. So hardly doomed. Each Robot will do ~7 wounds and a mortal wound to a Flyrant, meaning ~5 wounds get through the 5++. So two Kastellans can drop a Flyrant somewhat consistently. Six of them means about three dead a turn. With a good screen to keep them off you, that means they have two turns to watch a massive chunk of their army get wiped off the table by one of our units. This doesn't factor in the remaining 1000pt of our army shooting.
Iago40k wrote: Seeing a couple of lists lately with 5-7 flyrants etc.: What tools can lower enemies invul saves? I know there is null zone but thats a lot of points for 1 HQ. Anyone got a better idea?
Mortal wounds.
Yeah well if thats all then we are doomed. I was looking for something more here.
Suzuteo wrote: Surprised by the list. A lone Knight and a lone Crawler? Weird. The Dragoon setup is interesting. This honestly looks like a pre-Codex list. Crusader was a great deal because your shooting could remove threats from the board early on, after which the Knight became unstoppable,
You can do great things with a knight...if you dont have to play against Eldar nowadays. There are very few lists that take any anti tank so with good match ups I can see how he got that far.
It's all relative. We actually can handle Flyrants better than most with Icarus Crawlers (which I now prefer over Neutron Crawlers) and Kastelans.
Well, yeah. The meta is moving more and more towards infantry with really big guns or things with crazy invulnerable saves (especially stuff that flies). I personally rely on my Kastelans and Basilisks for anti-tank now; Icarus Crawlers can take out flying characters and vehicles. Anyhow, Knights are essentially three tanks glued together with an invulnerable save. They've always had the best average win rate, but in tourneys, it's usually the outliers who win all of their games that take the top spot, and Knights have a few completely awful matchups.
Hitting with the Daedalus is iffy, though re-rolls help. It has to get past the invuln to do its d6, which can be great or awful. You may do another point with the Gatling, maybe two. Two more wounds from the Twin Icarus, but half are stopped by the superior armor save. So, d6+4 or at maybe best, d6+6. No mortals. So basically you need to doll a 4+ to kill the sucker outright and that is just one dead Flyrant... maybe. Now, that is averages. It can swing high and low, but so can anything.
Our Robots seem more capable and since I am bringing Neutrons now over Icarus because the Kastellans do what the Icarus does generally and the reduction in flyer spam making them less useful too - why take an Icarus? Plus, the Neutron can nuke flyers with CDI strat.
To me, the Icarus is a unit we just don't need anymore. Sadly.
Because we cannot depend on Kastelans for everything. Against infantry, flying characters, and flying vehicles, each Crawler frees up one Kastelan to shoot something else.
Neutron Crawlers are really good against things that are not very good against the things that are strong right now. We are a reactive army, like it or not.
Suzuteo wrote: Because we cannot depend on Kastelans for everything. Against infantry, flying characters, and flying vehicles, each Crawler frees up one Kastelan to shoot something else.
Neutron Crawlers are really good against things that are not very good against the things that are strong right now. We are a reactive army, like it or not.
Neutronagers are good against a lot of stuff. Popping a tank at range or downing a flyer is useful. Those don't go away and can also help against random outliers, such as Knights.
And sadly, we do need to rely on Kastelans for just about everything. They are our most reliable means of deliver ranged firepower with mortal wounds. I am not sure I will be leaving home without six anymore.
On the topic of freeing up Kastelans to shoot, why not just take more Kastelans? I have even debated on two units of Robots to test (either 4/4 or 6/3) - even though that hogs up CP like crazy with Wrath. Being able to spread even more shots seems to be clutch for us, since most of our faction is mediocre or worse.
Funny that my mind is going that way when that was something we saw early on that didn't work that well. Post-Codex and CA, though... maybe Robot spam will work provided we keep a dense Guard screen ahead of it.
And with that in mind, here is a stupid list:
Spoiler:
Mars Spearhead 1CP
HQ:
Cawl
[240]
Heavy:
(6) Kastelans
[660]
(4) Kastelans
[440]
Neutronager
[140]
Neutronager
[140]
[1620]
Cadian Battalion 3CP
HQ:
Company Commander
Aquila
[30]
Company Commander
GS [30]
Troops:
Infantry Squad
Mortar
[45]
Infantry Squad
Mortar
[45]
Infantry Squad
Mortar
[45]
[195]
Cadian Battalion 3CP
HQ:
Company Commander
[30]
Company Commander
[30]
Troops:
Infantry Squad
Mortar
[45]
Infantry Squad
[40]
Infantry Squad
[40]
[185]
[2000]
10 CP w/ Recyclers
Wrath-centric list: 2 CP for BO and then the 6-strong unit can Wrath each turn. We have a fallback Robot unit in case our first one gets tangled up (which seems ludicrous with 60 bodies for a screen).
Two Neutronagers can handle ancillary threats like flyers if need be or pop transports. Each turn if we use Wrath and Conqueror, we should net back 1CP. With strats being majorly important, we will likely get 1-2 CP from Aquila a game too - enabling us to Wrath four straight turns, or five if we net just 2 CP from the enemy.
The perk with this list is the added 72 Phosphor shots it has in addition to the usual 108. And the enemy has to wade through bodies to get to our gunline. Obvious drawback is that the list is immobile in theory - though the mortar-less squads could aim at objectives and hope for the best. Also... it looks boring as hell to play and has no answer to things out of LoS (if that is an issue).
Interesting idea, but I can't see how you will be able to win objective based games with it...
Also you will have problems with tabeling your opponent, because he just can hide something out of los.
lash92 wrote: Interesting idea, but I can't see how you will be able to win objective based games with it...
Also you will have problems with tabeling your opponent, because he just can hide something out of los.
Both points I said would be issues, but both can be worked around with deployment and objective placement. We didn't really use non-LoS units until the Guard book anyhow and many armies don't really have that option and make it work. This list does have mortars though - not that those will do a whole lot to anything tough, but it can harass smaller and/or remnant units. Anything that does come into LoS is toast though.
Rumours of "The Battle for Mars" to coincide with the Necron release.. interesting rumour - especially since our codex references the growing Necron threat so prominently towards the end of our timeline...
Rumours of "The Battle for Mars" to coincide with the Necron release.. interesting rumour - especially since our codex references the growing Necron threat so prominently towards the end of our timeline...
Probably getting no new models for us. If we see new 'Crons though... well. I may build a 'Cron army! I have had an itch to do one for a few months now.
Rumours of "The Battle for Mars" to coincide with the Necron release.. interesting rumour - especially since our codex references the growing Necron threat so prominently towards the end of our timeline...
Probably getting no new models for us. If we see new 'Crons though... well. I may build a 'Cron army! I have had an itch to do one for a few months now.
From what I've heard it's gonna be a Death Masque-esque release with two new characters but otherwise repackaged units. Maybe AdMech will get the long-awaited Skitarii Prime?
Rumours of "The Battle for Mars" to coincide with the Necron release.. interesting rumour - especially since our codex references the growing Necron threat so prominently towards the end of our timeline...
There's only that much room for hope in my heart for AdMech, don't play with my feelings please !
We can't take 10 Kastelans because there are too many 48" range threats now. We would have to corner them to within 36" to make this work, but given how accessible DS is now, that's tough.
Suzuteo wrote: We can't take 10 Kastelans because there are too many 48" range threats now. We would have to corner them to within 36" to make this work, but given how accessible DS is now, that's tough.
Never leave the house without some Space Marines Scouts
lash92 wrote: So I finally surrendered and decided to try out Cawl with Bots, because high invulns are more and more getting a problem. (Looking at you custodes)
My take on soup:
AdMech Batallion:
- Cawl
- TPE
- 3x5 Ranger
- 4 x Dakkabots
- 2 x Icarus Crawler
Making the Rangers and TPE Graia for some Psyker defence
Suzuteo wrote: We can't take 10 Kastelans because there are too many 48" range threats now. We would have to corner them to within 36" to make this work, but given how accessible DS is now, that's tough.
Never leave the house without some Space Marines Scouts
Scouts don't make your Kastelans shoot 12" further. Fact is, Reapers can Webway 48" away from your Kastelans and kill them with impunity. You need something to kill them with, either Basilisks or Icarus Crawlers.
Suzuteo wrote: We can't take 10 Kastelans because there are too many 48" range threats now. We would have to corner them to within 36" to make this work, but given how accessible DS is now, that's tough.
Never leave the house without some Space Marines Scouts
Scouts don't make your Kastelans shoot 12" further. Fact is, Reapers can Webway 48" away from your Kastelans and kill them with impunity. You need something to kill them with, either Basilisks or Icarus Crawlers.
Icarus Crawlers won't kill Reapers. Especially Alaitoc ones, since there is the -1 to-hit for shooting ground targets. God help us if they Conceal them too.
You got to deploy wisely. Eldar aren't going to run up the table and lock us in combat that often (excluding Shining Spears, which we should focus fire on as well), so we can deploy tighter to the edge of the zone. Make it hard for them to be out of range. Not a lot of maps that make it impossible for us to get them in range. And we can move and pop BO as well, meaning we can move up 6" and shoot (albeit with the -1 to-hit thanks to Heavy weapons).
Our bots were good before wrath of mars, but with codex creep, they're not THAT good anymore. Also you have to get a datasmith for the other group or activate them a turn later anyway AND pay 1 CP AND root them in place forever
Ideasweasel wrote: How long do you guys think the life span of 8th edition will last for?
Think If 9th edition rolls round they will mix it up and nerf the good units into the ground and boost the ones that won’t sell?
Dakabots become trash and servitors become the new shiny hehe
Should take about 5 years from what I hear about the other editions.
What did you think Dakkabots were before, gold? They weren't taken in any format I was familiar with until this edition, especially not in bulk like they are now. They try to sell their stockpiled models with every new codex - it's their job.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Wonder why the Enginseer was the Warlord. Figured the bigger aura on Cawl would've been better but I guess he wasn't buffing as much as he could.
I definitely wouldn't look too hard at the list though. I'm calling it a fluke.
one reason could be he was using the enginseer as the warlord to get the warlord trait NECROMECHANIC where you heal the total wounds +1. with Cawl he would be tided to just the mars warlord trait
Then again there could be a completely different explanation as well! i am making a guess here
rvd1ofakind wrote: Our bots were good before wrath of mars, but with codex creep, they're not THAT good anymore. Also you have to get a datasmith for the other group or activate them a turn later anyway AND pay 1 CP AND root them in place forever
You can pop BO at the end of the Movement phase for one group and the end of the Psychic phase for the other.
Yeah, but holy crap it is still 72 extra shots. I have erased units with 4 Robots before we had Wrath. I can't imagine it wouldn't be brutal even still. Though the rise in -1 to-hit perks makes the Robots a little less great, even though Cawl does help there too.
If only I had 10 Robots and like 60 Guardsman, I would give this a whirl.
Ideasweasel wrote: How long do you guys think the life span of 8th edition will last for?
Think If 9th edition rolls round they will mix it up and nerf the good units into the ground and boost the ones that won’t sell?
Dakabots become trash and servitors become the new shiny hehe
Should take about 5 years from what I hear about the other editions.
What did you think Dakkabots were before, gold? They weren't taken in any format I was familiar with until this edition, especially not in bulk like they are now. They try to sell their stockpiled models with every new codex - it's their job.
Yeah I was planning on getting a few robots. Was slightly apprehensive about paying lots of money for certain units then them becoming redundant. 5 years is reasonable though.
Not quite a tactic question but figured this is the best place to ask.
I am looking to get some techpriests for my IG/Admech list. Ideally I'd like 3 or so. My plan is to convert some leftover skitarii I had. Just had a few questions.
What is the official base size for regular tech priests now? They used to be 25mm but it looks like they've got a bigger base now.
Anyone know a good source for something cool to make cog axes out of?
For those of you that have converted servo harnesses, what bits do you find work well?
Plan is to run them with a valhallan list mixed with admech stuff so having the techpriests to keep an eye on both russe's and onagers would be a big boon.
inb4 GW don't give it to admech or they do but our version is gak
With all those AdMech symbols and the Ironstrider legs, if they don't give it to us, I will be so ridiculously mad...
Maybe it'll have transport capacity! )
I'm hoping it has a lot of weapon options. I could see it being 12-14 wounds, T7, 3+/5++ but yeah, the big question is questor or imperial knight (or both) it's definitely not going to have admech keyword imo. They even announce it as an imperial knight.
Just posted about this in News and Rumours actually
Come on then let's speculate on the stats for this thing...
I'm thinking it's got to occupy a niche between the Kastelan Robots (110 pts T7 6W 3+/5++) and the knight.
I'd guess 100pts for the chassis with no weapons, probably 200-250 depending on loadout.
Move... Anything between 10" or 14". Hopefully 14" to give them a nice ability to zip round the board. With low model count you need mobility.
3+ / 3+ to hit seems set in stone
S8 and T8 I would assume. If they make it S7 or T7 it will be awful.
At least 12 wounds... I'd guess around 14... half a knight.
3+ save is obvious, however... I can't see an ion shield on the model so I am thinking there will be no invulnerable save. Which might actually make them easier to kill than Kastelan Robots. Maybe it will have closer to 18 wounds to make up for this.
The biggest question for me is whether they will retain TITANIC keyword giving them no penalties to hit with heavy weapons and the ability to walk out of combat over enemy models, then still shoot and charge again. They have to surely otherwise they will be rubbish.
So basically my carefully crafted but ultimately predictable opinion is that they will be almost exactly half a knight for half the points. Maybe with additional wounds to make up for the lack of an invuln.
I also made a post about it in that section. To the guy who was going to kitbash it from sentinels, I'm fairly sure this guy is quite a bit larger than that.
I made an estimate comparison in size compared to a normal Imperial Knight. From one of the pictures the Armiger has a heavy phosphor blaster as a carapace weapon. Though as far as I know, there's no such picture in full profile so this is very much a rough estimate. From that picture I'd say it's around 13-13.5cm tall (5.1-5.3 inch) so I made a rough mock up how large it would be next to the knight.
Heavy Support - 324 1x Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter
1x Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter
1x Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter
Mars Spearhead Detachment - 1322
HQ - 240 1x Belisarius Cawl
Heavy Support - 810 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
5x Kastelan Robots - 3x Heavy Phosphor Blasters
Fast Attack - 272 4x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
Total: 1999 points 8 Command Points
The HQs are split up this way for WYSIWYG purposes. Company Commanders don't really need rerolls anyway. But I guess now they can give each other orders, which sounds hilarious. I decided not to drop Dragoons because we still need something to grab objectives, and 92 points for another 2 CP seems a bit greedy.
EDIT: Adding error sigh.
I really like the look of this list. I remember your mechanised one a while back that had all the crawlers and dragoons.
I just play casual but got shredded by a tau player yesterday. Quite fancy slotting a knight into a list. I know it’s not competitive but that’s ok. Fun is the aim for me.
I quite like command points. If you were crazy enough to drop something to accommodate a knight, what would you drop? Bearing in mind it’s mainly for fun but wanting a chance to win.
Not sure I like the new Knight. Waiting for more images. Looks very AdMech though, so I guess that is good. A shame we have zero incentive to run Knights of any variety.
This thing will need to be stupid cheap to see much play and honestly, seeing how far Knights have fallen in play, I don't see it happening.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Not sure I like the new Knight. Waiting for more images. Looks very AdMech though, so I guess that is good. A shame we have zero incentive to run Knights of any variety.
This thing will need to be stupid cheap to see much play and honestly, seeing how far Knights have fallen in play, I don't see it happening.
Depends on the role for me. If it has all the benefits of a Fistellan and a Dakkastellan in one then 250 points would seem reasonable. But if it's a Heavy slot...it has stiff competition.
Yeah, even though it looks quite admech it'll probably be Questor Mechanicus. If it has the admech keyword then I can't expect it to be anywhere near a knight in stats.
They look like dread equivalents. Multimelta, CCW and what is probably a heavy phosphor blaster.
If they are purely for IK I would imagine they would have to be something like a Heavy Support or Elite choice. This doesnt actually fit well into the IK force org bc as is their entire army is LoWs so you are not going to be building anything other than Super Heavy detachments. I can see an option to upgrade a knight to a Baron, giving him 2+ 2+, but you are still missing troops and HQs, unless there is some special rule that pure Knight lists make knights not LoW. Best option would be to incorporate the Secutarii, but they have a kit already with FW.
For Admech, unless they have the <Forgeworld> Keyword and are Fast attack options I dont see them having a use. Our Heavy and Elite slots are already bloated.
A Lord of War, 16-18 wounds, 3+ save, 12-14" move, good guns.
Knights are 500 ish points. Surely you can conceive of a 300-ish point Lord of War that comes up to its waist?
This is what I am expecting. With a 6+ invuln. Guessing 325pt and not worth it. But I am extremely salty.
On an aside, Tau Codex announced imminent - that means Fires should be soon, right?
You don't think that'd be worth it?
300-odd points for Land Raider-style durability and Knight guns & CC with a faster move?
They won't be Knight guns. Looks like a Multimelta and a Heavy Phosphor. Not horribly impressed by that. We'll see though - it may surprise me. At the least, I will likely run a few just for fun with my other Knights.
A Lord of War, 16-18 wounds, 3+ save, 12-14" move, good guns.
Knights are 500 ish points. Surely you can conceive of a 300-ish point Lord of War that comes up to its waist?
This is what I am expecting. With a 6+ invuln. Guessing 325pt and not worth it. But I am extremely salty.
On an aside, Tau Codex announced imminent - that means Fires should be soon, right?
You don't think that'd be worth it?
300-odd points for Land Raider-style durability and Knight guns & CC with a faster move?
They won't be Knight guns. Looks like a Multimelta and a Heavy Phosphor. Not horribly impressed by that. We'll see though - it may surprise me. At the least, I will likely run a few just for fun with my other Knights.
I'm expecting it to be essentially a far less durable knight but with similar guns.
And I think what the guns are depends on what size it is. I would say that it looks to be maybe midway-up the knight's chest, with the head just above the top of a Kastellan Robot.
That means the guns are a good half-again as large or larger than a multi-melta and phosphor blaster.
I watched the video again and I do think they may be considerably larger than I was initially thinking. I noticed the little triangle hazard decals on the front and on the blade which are Admech decals. They are roughly 3mm a side which gives you an idea.
Doesn't really seem to fit the "release the hounds" fluff if they are just slightly worst knights though.
Whether they are garbage or good will probably come down to Strategems.
I will reserve judgement, but overall a very meh release.
Knights already move 12' though, they are not that slow. There are Forgeworld knights that are even faster.
When I think of support I think of units that either buff the primary unit or cover a weakness of the primary unit. I dont think these mini knights provide either. Really the only support they are providing are additional targets to draw fire.
True support would be something like Secutarii to provide cover bonuses like thier old rules, or screens, or repairs, or fast obsec units.
I feel like the model was designed by the marketing team...
I'm with MNOP, I just don't see the dakka right now. I hope there are more armament options that they aren't showing right now. I want to see double cannon options instead of the same old gun + buzz saw.
I just play casual but got shredded by a tau player yesterday. Quite fancy slotting a knight into a list. I know it’s not competitive but that’s ok. Fun is the aim for me.
I quite like command points. If you were crazy enough to drop something to accommodate a knight, what would you drop? Bearing in mind it’s mainly for fun but wanting a chance to win.
Cheers
I feel that if you're going Knights, you don't bring one. You're missing out on so many bonuses. You bring three.
Spoiler:
Cadian Supreme Command Detachment - 124
HQ - 124 1x Company Commander - Lasgun, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist, Kurov's Aquila
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer - Forge World: Stygies VIII
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer - Forge World: Stygies VIII
Stygies VIII Auxiliary Detachment - 340
Fast Attack - 340 5x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
Super-Heavy Detachment - 1536
Lord of War - 512 Knight Crusader - Titanic Feet, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber
Lord of War - 512 Knight Crusader - Titanic Feet, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber
Lord of War - 512 Knight Crusader - Titanic Feet, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber
Total: 2000 points 6 Command Points
But if you want one Knight, I would condense down to one Battalion to make room for the SH detachment. I also would cut Dragoons because a Knight serves a similar purpose, and a Basilisk because it's a unit of non-AdMech shooting. The key is to preserve your core really well.
So maybe this?
Spoiler:
Cadian Battalion Detachment - 399
HQ - 60 1x Company Commander - Lasgun, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist
1x Company Commander - Lasgun, Chainsword, Kurov's Aquila
Wow GW is good at releasing models nobody asked for these days. Custodes, a new Knight ? Hope our transport is coming along the way, and a plastic one if there is a god.
You know there's a problem when every other imperial faction is trying to find some way to slot in an Imperial Guard detachment no matter what faction they play. Fething disgusting state of affairs.
I just play casual but got shredded by a tau player yesterday. Quite fancy slotting a knight into a list. I know it’s not competitive but that’s ok. Fun is the aim for me.
I quite like command points. If you were crazy enough to drop something to accommodate a knight, what would you drop? Bearing in mind it’s mainly for fun but wanting a chance to win.
Cheers
I feel that if you're going Knights, you don't bring one. You're missing out on so many bonuses. You bring three.
Spoiler:
Cadian Supreme Command Detachment - 124
HQ - 124 1x Company Commander - Lasgun, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist, Kurov's Aquila
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer - Forge World: Stygies VIII
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer - Forge World: Stygies VIII
Stygies VIII Auxiliary Detachment - 340
Fast Attack - 340 5x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
Super-Heavy Detachment - 1536
Lord of War - 512 Knight Crusader - Titanic Feet, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber
Lord of War - 512 Knight Crusader - Titanic Feet, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber
Lord of War - 512 Knight Crusader - Titanic Feet, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber
Total: 2000 points 6 Command Points
But if you want one Knight, I would condense down to one Battalion to make room for the SH detachment. I also would cut Dragoons because a Knight serves a similar purpose, and a Basilisk because it's a unit of non-AdMech shooting. The key is to preserve your core really well.
So maybe this?
Spoiler:
Cadian Battalion Detachment - 399
HQ - 60 1x Company Commander - Lasgun, Chainsword, Warlord: Grand Strategist
1x Company Commander - Lasgun, Chainsword, Kurov's Aquila
Heavy Support - 216 1x Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter
1x Basilisk - Earthshaker Cannon, Heavy Bolter
Mars Spearhead Detachment - 1070
HQ - 240 1x Belisarius Cawl
Heavy Support - 830 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
5x Kastelan Robots - 3x Heavy Phosphor Blasters
Auxiliary Super-Heavy Detachment - 512
Lord of War - 512 Knight Crusader - Titanic Feet, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber
Total: 1981 points 7 Command Points
Cheers mate, thanks for the advice. I guess another alternative is to try and convince people to play a 2500 game and bring in an LOW. I’m still collecting models at the moment. Not long back into 40k. Only got about 750 points of Admech and a knight.
ultimentra wrote: You know there's a problem when every other imperial faction is trying to find some way to slot in an Imperial Guard detachment no matter what faction they play. Fething disgusting state of affairs.
Yep, and the worst is that I believe Astra Militarum codex is fine (because balanced within itself), and the problem is that other codices are just wrong. Shouldn't Astra Militarum be all about a Jack-of-all-trades, being able to do everything cheaply, but with average efficiency ? For now they have better artillery (and way more options due to the age of the army) than us because of its sheer cheapness. Leman Russes are extremely resilient, T8 makes a world of difference with T7 when getting shot at with Hurricane Bolters or Autocannons, and while the Battle Cannon deals random damage, it can shoot twice when moving slowly and at a way greater range than our Onagers. They have a great mobility too even with their basic infantry, and cheap access to mortal wounds with Psykers, but I'll end my rant here.
Anyway, on the topic of AdMech effectiveness, I got to try a Cawl + 5 Kastelans combo against a game at my LGS recently, I played this because my opponent wanted to try out a tourney list so I borrowed 3 Kastelans to make a pure AdMech force. Unfortunately he forgot his army at home and so played with the Dark Angels he had in the shop, a good list but damn Kastelans are scary. He played Azrael, 10 Hellblasters, 3x5 Scout Snipers, Belial, DW Ancient, 10 DW Knights and 10 DW Termies. I had Cawl, 1 Enginseer, 5 Kastelans, 3 Destroyers (Plasma), 5 Rangers with Arquebuses, 5 Rangers, 3x5 Vanguards, 3 Dragoons (in one unit), 5 Infiltrators 2 Neutronagers, 5 Fulgurites (don't judge me I only have five of them).
I screened best as I could Cawl's Robots, placed the Destroyers in range for Elimination Volley, and the Dunecrawlers close by for the reroll save and hits. My Fulgurites were hiding to prepare for a counter-charge, and the Dragoons were on my flank. He got first turn and dropped all his termies the closest he could to my Kastelans and focused all fire on the Destroyers, killing them all, but he used like 4 CP in one turn. Luckily for me he failed his charges (even with rerolls from Master of Manoeuver) so in my turn, I plant the Bots, pop Wrath of Mars and proceed to wipe the 10 Knights in one go. Satisfying. In the following turns he manages to engage the Bots, kill 5 Vanguards in the process and so I counter-charge with Cawl, the Enginseer, the Datasmith and the Dragoons. He doesn't survive this cyborg rage and next turn was mostly safe for me, I wiped the rest of the Hellblasters with the 4 remaining Bots (4 of them died of overheat) and in the end all my Dragoons died but he only had Azrael left on the field. We were playing Maelstrom and he almost won on points, I still got 8-6. I almost never get good Objective Cards it's frightening.
Wrath of Mars wasn't very useful this time, on my use on the Knights it only dealt 6 MW while the regular dakka was already overwhelming. And they have 3+ saves ! Not enough to deal with 90 shots though. I think I'll keep this list (maybe with a few changes) for particularly hard opponents and lists, but honestly its a pain for both of us to roll 90 dice, and it's not very fun to be so static. That's why I'll always include my 3 Dragoons to have some front action, they're always effective, even though they rarely survive. I'm thinking about using Cawl with other units, he's quite powerful himself and the aura could prove great with even basic Skitarii to form a slowly moving fire line to be able to put more pressure on my opponent.
axisofentropy wrote: Maxwell Hill won his first 3 LVO games making him the top AdMech player at the end of Day 1 with this army.
Wait what, a Vanguard Detachment with 6 Heavy Support choices ? I'll just assume he doesn't write very well since the orthograph of some entries but whatever. I wonder what lists he faced, he doesn't have much anti-horde, have the meta shifted or did he just get lucky ? Did he screen with Infiltrators ? I wouldn't use 10 Vanguards, especially with the 3 Plasmas, to fill that role. Really confusing.
It's a legal list if you just make the onager detachment a spearhead so I'm just gonna assume it was a silly mistake.
I'd love to see him summarize what the army is supposed to do and how it works in play because I'm definitely not seeing it... Seems like it'd get wrecked hard by chaos daemons and tyranid lists.
Aaranis wrote: I wonder what lists he faced, he doesn't have much anti-horde, have the meta shifted or did he just get lucky ?
there's always lots of luck involved. He beat another AdMech, Death Guard, and Necrons. There's at least 3 more games tomorrow so another AdMech player could certainly overtake him.
).
but I found that just the volumes of dice the vanguard generate and a bit of careful choice in canticle (where you can, I didn't use a single canticle more than once in a game meaning I was trying to pick and choose at the right times in advance, never allowing the random chance), with Nonagers to scare the 
out of vehicles was great fun tactically and competitive at this weekend.
