It'll probably be something like S3, roll against armour save instead of toughness rapid fire. Heavy versions have multiple shots and S4+, which causes Instant Death against people in Terminator armour.
lord_blackfang wrote: Why does everyone assume grav weapons need a Strength value? It could just be "target's armour save = what you need to roll to wound".
What if the grav gun gets used against AS-less targets?
lord_blackfang wrote: Why does everyone assume grav weapons need a Strength value? It could just be "target's armour save = what you need to roll to wound".
What if the grav gun gets used against AS-less targets?
"Targets without an armour save are always wounded on a 6+"
Daba wrote: It'll probably be something like S3, roll against armour save instead of toughness rapid fire. Heavy versions have multiple shots and S4+, which causes Instant Death against people in Terminator armour.
That is quite bad:
-Plasma would be more effective most of the time.
-How would you write the rule for that ID-thing?
-ID'ing multiple-wound characters and MC's for only a couple of points is not something I would want to see.
lord_blackfang wrote: Why does everyone assume grav weapons need a Strength value? It could just be "target's armour save = what you need to roll to wound".
Can you type out the full ruling for that ability?
Because making them S4 and "To Wound rolls from weapons with the Grav-rule are made against the target's Armour Save, rather than Toughness." has the same result but is less wordy and more intuitive.
The battlereport said that those Centurions slaughtered Marines.
It's quite bad when you need a 4+ to wound them.
Wounding terminators on a 3+ is quite 'meeh' too.
In both cases I would prefer a Plasma cannon or gun
Even though I would love to one-shot Riptides, I wouldn't like what it does to the powerlevel of this game.
Because the next codices (probably Orks and Tyranids) would get even stronger MC's to counter that.
And my BA would feel F'd.
With S4, AP2 it would be the same power as plasma against T7,4+ or T6, 3+ and T5,2+
Then if the T is lower, you're better off with plasma and if the save gets better you could use Grav.
In my opinion that would make it quite a balanced weapon.
Reverse scaling weapons are such a crappy idea. Flavourful perhaps, but utterly impossible to cost correctly. I don't know why they're trying to make them work.
lord_blackfang wrote: Why does everyone assume grav weapons need a Strength value? It could just be "target's armour save = what you need to roll to wound".
Can you type out the full ruling for that ability?
Because making them S4 and "To Wound rolls from weapons with the Grav-rule are made against the target's Armour Save, rather than Toughness." has the same result but is less wordy and more intuitive.
I don't think there's anything particularly intuitive by trying to shoehorn armour saves into the Strength vs Toughness table. Saves and Toughness values don't even follow the same format.
Grav: This weapon has no strength value. The score required to wound a target is equal to the target's armour save.
Then some addendum about AS - and vehicles, which would be required either way.
I'm expecting Grav weapons to merely wound against a models' armour save and that is all while being AP2, and no actual Strength value. Maybe they will have the Haywire rule, but I guess we must wait and see.
I think the Centurions are ok, personally. I will wait to see them built and painted (well) in my LGS before I comment on them further. The Hunter and Stalker are great, as are the re-done infantry kits. The characters are pretty cool. The return of proper Chapter Traits without the need of a special character is awesome, particularly if what we have heard so far is true - i.e. Iron Hands having Feel No Pain 6+, as well as It Will Not Die for their characters and vehicles. I expect Ultramarines to keep Chapter Tactics in its current form and maybe get some other benefit. like Stubborn rules to represent Tyrranic War Veterans.
I'm expecting Pedro will still unlock Sternguard as either Troops or scoring units, regardless of whether or not Crimson Fists have Chapter Traits. I wonder if we will see an expansion on the "Space Marine Captain with a bike unlocks Bikers as Troops" concept and have it applied to Assault Squads and Terminator Squads. It would certainly be an interesting way of expanding the potential army lists, and not too dissimilar from Legion Praetors in the Horus Heresy series. Probably just wish-listing though.
His Master's Voice wrote: Reverse scaling weapons are such a crappy idea. Flavourful perhaps, but utterly impossible to cost correctly. I don't know why they're trying to make them work.
I agree. Models with a good save pay points for that; making it a liability is just wrong. It's like MSS that makes being good at CC a bad thing.
I'm expecting Pedro will still unlock Sternguard as either Troops or scoring units, regardless of whether or not Crimson Fists have Chapter Traits.
Do we even know that he is still in the book? In what army can Pedro be included if there's no CF traits? I'm curious to see how the special characters and chapter traits will interact anyway; I presume characters are now limited to their own chapters.
Also if this does mean wound against armor value does that make Termies even less likely to be fielded? I thought all those smashing MC's and plas like weapons already did that.
I remember when Termies were the boss. Now there is a weapon that hits then hard and a new unit that makes them look diddly.
GK termies will feel hard done by most i guess since a lot.
Still its shaping up to be a good release and it seems from the overall feel its going to be better received than CSM & DA both model and rule wise. Power Armor may yet live!
I'm expecting Pedro will still unlock Sternguard as either Troops or scoring units, regardless of whether or not Crimson Fists have Chapter Traits.
Do we even know that he is still in the book? In what army can Pedro be included if there's no CF traits? I'm curious to see how the special characters and chapter traits will interact anyway; I presume characters are now limited to their own chapters.
I am hoping that is not the case.
Probably tying my wagon to the wrong star but would love to see SCs as paragons of certain styles which you can take in whatever force, epitomised by the specific Character. While Pedro is Paragon of a Sternguard Scoring Leader, he isnt the only Chaptermaster who can do it.
An example of what I am thinking is something like:
While Lysander/Not-Lysander is the bad-ass face-smasher with a couple of cool rules (Bolter Drill and Fancy Hammer) he wouldnt get the "Chapter" rule of Stubborn or whatever unless you play him as IF.
While Vulkan/Not-Vulkan is Artificer Armoured, 3++ed, Master Crafted heavy flamer and Relic Sword dude with kick ass skills, he wouldnt get the double Melta ability unles he was a legit Sally.
Pretty much a separation of Character Special Rules and Chapter Special Rules, though I can easily see how some peeps might min-max it for the best advantage, but then again that is true in all formats regardless.
Zanderchief wrote: Also if this does mean wound against armor value does that make Termies even less likely to be fielded? I thought all those smashing MC's and plas like weapons already did that.
I remember when Termies were the boss. Now there is a weapon that hits then hard and a new unit that makes them look diddly.
GK termies will feel hard done by most i guess since a lot.
Still its shaping up to be a good release and it seems from the overall feel its going to be better received than CSM & DA both model and rule wise. Power Armor may yet live!
There seems to be an aweful lot of assumption that these new weapons are going to be the cats's meow, but everyone said tha same thing about DA and their kit before the rules even came out and look what happened... and AP3 unwieldy sword... and chuckles and no game... its honestly better at this point to enjoy the fact that GW actually appears to be trying to introduce something fresh to the game, rather than "OK for 5 points a model all tac marines can take plasma guns." imagine a world where that happened with terminators.
Termies are still boss! there are some who who'd go so far to say that TH/SS codex termies are the stongest unit in the game simply because there isnt anything they cant smash, provided they make there save. And what then? what if the grave weapon is simply "if a model has an armor save, the models armor save becomes the to wound roll... 2+ armor save? wounds on a 2+. (3+ and so on) perhaps there wont be an AP... Perhaps it'll be AP1... still too early to take away the termy mantle...
But yes let's wait and see. I just hardly see termies now and feel a little sad (but happy new toys are coming) that Termies (fluff wise) don't appear to be the ultimate walking tank they were originally.
As someone mentioned however 40k is run a bit like an arms race by GW. Bigger, better, more dakka! I have nothing against this so long as they try to make its playable.
I love new models as much as the next guy, but SM are already supposed to be the best of the best in the universe. I hope this new codex brings more in the way of tactical advantages and such. Plus I have been waiting for salamanders so get the rules they deserve fluff wise to make them as awesome as they really are. Fire and anvil. I was really upset when the CSM codex came out and they didnt have any special rules for alpha legion. I mean you give me cultist and no special rules for alpha legion are you mad. I just hope they dont make the same mistake for this codex.
lord_blackfang wrote: I don't think there's anything particularly intuitive by trying to shoehorn armour saves into the Strength vs Toughness table. Saves and Toughness values don't even follow the same format.
Well, you just check the value of the save on the table.
Everyone knows that S4 needs a 5+ to wound T5.
And it won't take long for people to understand that S4 needs a 5+ to wound an Armour Save of 5+
Then some addendum about AS - and vehicles, which would be required either way.
AS - is correct.
But why would you need an addendum about vehicles?
You don't roll to-wound for vehicles, so you can't use the Grav rule.
I am not saying there won't be anything against vehicles, they might use Haywire or something, but you don't need an extra line for vehicles.
Caederes wrote: I'm expecting Grav weapons to merely wound against a models' armour save and that is all while being AP2, and no actual Strength value. Maybe they will have the Haywire rule, but I guess we must wait and see.
How can you wound AGAINST the armour save if there is no Strength-value?
The word 'against' means that you compare stats (and use the to-wound table).
Normally you compare strength against toughness.
With Grav you compare strength against armour save.
Without a S-value, you cannot compare anything against the save.
Zanderchief wrote: Also if this does mean wound against armor value does that make Termies even less likely to be fielded? I thought all those smashing MC's and plas like weapons already did that.
I don't think so. As far as we know, Grav won't do anything against Termies that Plasma isn't able to do.
Well plasma always boxed terminator. As did MCs. Terminators are line breakers, built to eat through infantry and wreck vehicles, not hunting MCs or other heavy elites. They also make excellent fire magnets against line infantry. If the Centurion has needs to fill a role, it should be as an MC hunter, which other than using weight of fire, SM doesn’t really have a counter to.
Grav weapons are an interesting concept, and should really function as more of a debuf then an actual weapon. I would see S: 4 Ap:-, wounds against Sv, if the target suffers an unsaved wound they count as being in difficult terrain/take a grounding test.
Imperial Deceit wrote: Well plasma always boxed terminator. As did MCs. Terminators are line breakers, built to eat through infantry and wreck vehicles, not hunting MCs or other heavy elites. They also make excellent fire magnets against line infantry. If the Centurion has needs to fill a role, it should be as an MC hunter, which other than using weight of fire, SM doesn’t really have a counter to.
Grav weapons are an interesting concept, and should really function as more of a debuf then an actual weapon. I would see S: 4 Ap:-, wounds against Sv, if the target suffers an unsaved wound they count as being in difficult terrain/take a grounding test.
Not sure where you got this bud, but one of the best ways to kill MCs is with TH/SS termys... hands down... sure you could just shoot the crap out of them with high strength, AP3 or better weapons (looking at nids), but if you had to be in close combat? there is no better unit to crush an MC through reliable dice rolls... Also, termies have never had enough attacks to deal with massed infantry, so Im not sure where that comment came from. I would take a 30 boy mob vs a unit of 10 termys any day of the week...
YMMV. From my experiance Terminators are too slow to handle MCs, especially Daemons and Hive Tyrants. Losing your 2+ save makes you as vulnerable as regular marines (or guardsmen if you don't have SS) and your going to lose the WS battle everytime. They do have enough attacks, on the charge you will have 11 from a five man squad, most infantry outside of orks and nids can't even feild that many models. The return won't be nearly as bad, because for the most part you will retain your 2+ except for the odd power klaw, which you can deal with via Challanges.
aka_mythos wrote: Does anyone else look at the Centurions and think this is what GW will base a new Obliterator on?-I could sure see someone convert them that way.
Nope!
Obliterators are basically Terminators who have fused with their suits and have absorbed technology/weapons along the way, Centurions are Marines in Power Armor piloting a kind of exo-suit that carries guns or breaching drills. Not really the same thing when you get down to it.
Plus Centurions are a bit bigger.
in the new fluff they arent terminators or even marines. They are just men fused with daemon fused with machine that creates something with a marine like 4s across the statline board.
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lord_blackfang wrote: Why does everyone assume grav weapons need a Strength value? It could just be "target's armour save = what you need to roll to wound".
that is how I always envisioned it. no use against things without a save
Caederes wrote: I'm expecting Grav weapons to merely wound against a models' armour save and that is all while being AP2, and no actual Strength value. Maybe they will have the Haywire rule, but I guess we must wait and see.
How can you wound AGAINST the armour save if there is no Strength-value?
The word 'against' means that you compare stats (and use the to-wound table).
Normally you compare strength against toughness.
With Grav you compare strength against armour save.
Without a S-value, you cannot compare anything against the save.
I'm sorry for what was clearly a poor choice of words. I simply mean that, going by the rumours, it will most likely be Strength 'X' so that there are no confusing questions about instant death, and it will wound on a D6 result equal to the models' armour save. If someone who has read the battle report can confirm the Grav weapons were also used to destroy tanks, it would be probable they have the Haywire special rule as well.
Err looks like I quoted incorrectly, sorry!
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Crimson wrote: Reverse scaling weapons are such a crappy idea. Flavourful perhaps, but utterly impossible to cost correctly. I don't know why they're trying to make them work.
I agree. Models with a good save pay points for that; making it a liability is just wrong. It's like MSS that makes being good at CC a bad thing.
I'm expecting Pedro will still unlock Sternguard as either Troops or scoring units, regardless of whether or not Crimson Fists have Chapter Traits.
Do we even know that he is still in the book? In what army can Pedro be included if there's no CF traits? I'm curious to see how the special characters and chapter traits will interact anyway; I presume characters are now limited to their own chapters.
I'm merely going off what chapters have been confirmed to both have supplements and chapter traits; as I recall, there was a bit of an outcry about the lack of Crimson Fists (from what we have seen so far) despite Pedro's inclusion in the current codex. Despite this, I am still of the belief that Pedro will unlock Sternguard either as scoring units or Troops choices as his own personal trait, much like Marneus Calgar would allow you to take multiple Honour Guard squads, though the Ultramarine Chapter Tactics will likely be different.
EDIT: Oh drat! Can someone enlighten me on how to fix my post? I have the whole end quote thing at the end of the first quote, but it is covering the whole post. Ah, I'm no good with forums!
Hahaha, you need to make sure that the [.quote] and [./quote]'s are correctly placed. You probably have one [.quote] too many!
But things being confusing is really a player-issue.
ID clearly says that Strength needs to double the Toughness.
I just think that Strength 'X' needs much more wording than S4, and it both comes down to the same thing.
Imperial Deceit wrote: Although what it really tickles me is all the anxiety and moaning over rules that we the community basically made up. When September rolls around (And it will, I promise) then we can legitimately complain about how OP or overpriced or useless the rules are.
I am not moaning, I am guessing what it will do. The philosophy and math behind it is more entertaining than watching Dr Phill on tv.
And I have faith in GW's balancing, so I trust them to balance this correctly.
They shouldn't make Plasma useless.
They shouldn't make Grav useless.
If they balance it right, there will be a point where both Plasma and Grav are equally strong at killing stuff.
In my opinion that point will be T7Sv4+, T6Sv3+ and T5Sv2+ since that are commonly found statlines in codices.
Kangodo wrote: Hahaha, you need to make sure that the [.quote] and [./quote]'s are correctly placed. You probably have one [.quote] too many!
But things being confusing is really a player-issue.
ID clearly says that Strength needs to double the Toughness.
I just think that Strength 'X' needs much more wording than S4, and it both comes down to the same thing.
Imperial Deceit wrote: Although what it really tickles me is all the anxiety and moaning over rules that we the community basically made up. When September rolls around (And it will, I promise) then we can legitimately complain about how OP or overpriced or useless the rules are.
I am not moaning, I am guessing what it will do. The philosophy and math behind it is more entertaining than watching Dr Phill on tv.
And I have faith in GW's balancing, so I trust them to balance this correctly.
They shouldn't make Plasma useless.
They shouldn't make Grav useless.
If they balance it right, there will be a point where both Plasma and Grav are equally strong at killing stuff.
In my opinion that point will be T7Sv4+, T6Sv3+ and T5Sv2+ since that are commonly found statlines in codices.
I tried fixing it but literally have no clue what I did wrong lol. I guess I will leave it for now.
Yeah fair enough, I just remember all the hub-bub about weapons like the Abyssal Staff and I think a few others that worked similarly to grav weaponry. I think having no potential for instant death would be a form of balancing it against plasma, as it won't instantly kill say Inquisitor Coteaz whereas the Plasma Gun would. That's just my theory though.
Heh, anyone else think about how annoying it will be to shoot grav weapons at mixed armour save units if the whole "wound against armour save" blurb is accurate? No different to current wound allocation rules, but still a bit annoying. Heh, that could actually be a funny way to protect a Chaos Lord in a unit of Chaos Spawn, or Inquisitor Coteaz in a Henchmen unit. Against Grav weapons, per the mixed save rules, put the 5+ armoured bodies or non-armoured bodies in front for a change! If Grav weapons indeed cannot hurt units without an armour save, I can only imagine the look on a poor Space Marine players' face when my Spawn and Khorne Lord shrug off the fire from his new Centurions.
in the new fluff they arent terminators or even marines. They are just men fused with daemon fused with machine that creates something with a marine like 4s across the statline board.
In the new fluff Mutilators are though to be Assault Terminators that have been mutated by the warp, so Obliterators being Terminators isn't too hard to imagine.
Kangodo wrote: Hahaha, you need to make sure that the [.quote] and [./quote]'s are correctly placed. You probably have one [.quote] too many!
But things being confusing is really a player-issue.
ID clearly says that Strength needs to double the Toughness.
I just think that Strength 'X' needs much more wording than S4, and it both comes down to the same thing.
They shouldn't make Plasma useless.
They shouldn't make Grav useless.
If they balance it right, there will be a point where both Plasma and Grav are equally strong at killing stuff.
In my opinion that point will be T7Sv4+, T6Sv3+ and T5Sv2+ since that are commonly found statlines in codices.
I mean, it could be that the weapon is strength X AP2, wounds on armor save, and ALWAYS inflicts ID. Or inflict ID on 4+, 5+ or 6+?
against 3+ saves with 1 wound, plasma/melta would be better(excludes gets hot, range, RoF, and cost)
against 2+ saves with 1 wound, would be equal to plasma and melta(excludes gets hot, range, RoF, and cost)
against anything T4 3+ or better with more than one wound, would be equal to melta but better than plasma (excludes gets hot, range, RoF, and cost)
against anything T5 3+ or better with more than one wound, would be flat better.
I dont like it having a strength value, str4 ID 2+ saves but not 3+ saves. Would it really be too powerful if it just always caused ID? At least that way it treats things equally.
Kangodo wrote: Hahaha, you need to make sure that the [.quote] and [./quote]'s are correctly placed. You probably have one [.quote] too many!
But things being confusing is really a player-issue.
ID clearly says that Strength needs to double the Toughness.
I just think that Strength 'X' needs much more wording than S4, and it both comes down to the same thing.
They shouldn't make Plasma useless.
They shouldn't make Grav useless.
If they balance it right, there will be a point where both Plasma and Grav are equally strong at killing stuff.
In my opinion that point will be T7Sv4+, T6Sv3+ and T5Sv2+ since that are commonly found statlines in codices.
I mean, it could be that the weapon is strength X AP2, wounds on armor save, and ALWAYS inflicts ID. Or inflict ID on 4+, 5+ or 6+?
against 3+ saves with 1 wound, plasma/melta would be better(excludes gets hot, range, RoF, and cost)
against 2+ saves with 1 wound, would be equal to plasma and melta(excludes gets hot, range, RoF, and cost)
against anything T4 3+ or better with more than one wound, would be equal to melta but better than plasma (excludes gets hot, range, RoF, and cost)
against anything T5 3+ or better with more than one wound, would be flat better.
I dont like it having a strength value, str4 ID 2+ saves but not 3+ saves. Would it really be too powerful if it just always caused ID? At least that way it treats things equally.
I can't say I agree with the last two sentences. Being able to wound (for example) a Riptide on a 2+ and inflict instant death on it from a ranged weapon that will likely be carried by Sternguard in Drop Pods or even basic Tactical Marines is just a bit too much. If Grav weapons did that they would invalidate monstrous creatures of any kind, save the Chaos Daemon ones lacking an armour save (poor Khorne).
Challenges are stupid and have no place in 40K. Having said that I believe that at the very least SM should be able to ignore challenges with a Ld or Int check or something. (I think every army should really)
Imperial Deceit wrote: Challenges are stupid and have no place in 40K. Having said that I believe that at the very least SM should be able to ignore challenges with a Ld or Int check or something. (I think every army should really)
I think challenges should only be applicable between HQ choices.
No one is really losing morale over their commissar dying...that just means you got a field promotion!
Now your Grand Master goes down...you feel that pain...a Hive Tyrant goes down...you literally feel that pain.
Leave the challenges to the big boys who would do them. Or at least IC only. Though I do enjoy the mechanic of an MC being able to pick out the powerfist guy...if only for game balance.
When September rolls around (And it will, I promise)
LIES!
you have no proof time will continue to pass
past performance is no guarantee of future results
That's exactly wrong.
If psychology has anything like a law at all, it is "the best predictor of behavior, is past behavior."
OK - now that that's out of the way...
Unfortunately, the best mechanics for any kind of grav weapon - are also going to be accounting nightmares (not that that won't stop GW in the current design ethic...). If they are not just be another "Ho hum, Marines have a new kill-anything-from-far-away gizmo" - then they should, IMO, work something like the old graviton gun combined with the Tremor Staff rules.
JUST my two cents, but I'd like to see: Range 24", STR X AP - Heavy 1 (more for bigger grav weapons) 'Models (not units) hit with a grav weapon may not move, shoot, or charge, are considered in dangerous terrain, and WS 1 with their Attacks reduced to 1'. On each subsequent turn, the model may make a STR test to leave the area and throw off the effect. Models hit by grav weapons are considered in play for purposes of victory points, scoring, etc. as applicable and do not count as removed or as casualties. Vehicles struck by grav weapons have their movement halved. A second hit by a grav weapon immobilizes that vehicle, with no hull point removed. Flyers hit by grav weapons are forced to land on a 2-4, and crash on a 5-6. *
They should change the meta, not the lethality of Marines.
*What happens to unit coherency when one model in 5, or 10, or 30 is hit by a grav weapon? Dunno. I'd guess a) the unit has to move to coherency as per normal if the affected model recovers, b) models in units auto-recover on the following turn (your buddies drag you out of the high-grav area and the effect ends). Either one handily slows down the enemy in interesting ways without just outright killing models.
Yeah, it's a bit convoluted - but I think it'd be fun.
Imperial Deceit wrote: Challenges are stupid and have no place in 40K. Having said that I believe that at the very least SM should be able to ignore challenges with a Ld or Int check or something. (I think every army should really)
Band of Brothers: "When a character in a unit with this special rule is challenged, EVERYONE accepts the challenge." Fluffy story: Soldiers of the Imperium live together, fight together and die together.
Exergy wrote: I dont like it having a strength value, str4 ID 2+ saves but not 3+ saves. Would it really be too powerful if it just always caused ID? At least that way it treats things equally.
Ooh, you are right. Abyssal Staff and equivalents got FAQ'd that for Instant Death you check against the stat you rolled against. Maybe they should undo that FAQ? And otherwise you have the perfect argument to why Grav-weapons won't have a S-value!
And yeah, always ID would be quite overpowered. I don't want a Sarg with a Grav Pistol having a 50+% chance to ID Mephiston or a Riptide.
Caederes wrote: Heh, anyone else think about how annoying it will be to shoot grav weapons at mixed armour save units if the whole "wound against armour save" blurb is accurate? No different to current wound allocation rules, but still a bit annoying. Heh, that could actually be a funny way to protect a Chaos Lord in a unit of Chaos Spawn, or Inquisitor Coteaz in a Henchmen unit. Against Grav weapons, per the mixed save rules, put the 5+ armoured bodies or non-armoured bodies in front for a change! If Grav weapons indeed cannot hurt units without an armour save, I can only imagine the look on a poor Space Marine players' face when my Spawn and Khorne Lord shrug off the fire from his new Centurions.
Ooh crap, the BRB and YMDC are going to explode. I will put my blast template over the inner-circle that has 2+ and allocate the wounds to the 5+ models.. That will teach you not to mess with me!
But the amount of Grav-shots are probably going to be limited, so you could fire them all one by one. Maybe it's even possible to roll for Bolters first, clearing the area of 5+ and then roll the Grav-weapons.
And I am willing to bet ALL MY INTERNETDOLLARS that they will wound on a 6+ against Sv -
It's not really a balancing factor. It was placed to create "cinematic moments". All it really does is make certain upgrades obsolete and dramatically reduce the value of Sergeants and their equivalents. I almost never even bother to upgrade my CCW on them anymore because its just throwing away points. The penalty for refusing a challange is too steep. It should have been left in fantasy where it belongs.
lost_soul wrote: I love new models as much as the next guy, but SM are already supposed to be the best of the best HUMANS in the universe. I hope this new codex brings more in the way of tactical advantages and such. Plus I have been waiting for salamanders so get the rules they deserve fluff wise to make them as awesome as they really are. Fire and anvil. I was really upset when the CSM codex came out and they didnt have any special rules for alpha legion. I mean you give me cultist and no special rules for alpha legion are you mad. I just hope they dont make the same mistake for this codex.
I corrected that for you.
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Imperial Deceit wrote: It's not really a balancing factor. It was placed to create "cinematic moments". All it really does is make certain upgrades obsolete and dramatically reduce the value of Sergeants and their equivalents. I almost never even bother to upgrade my CCW on them anymore because its just throwing away points. The penalty for refusing a challange is too steep. It should have been left in fantasy where it belongs.
Definitely agree with that last part. It's a cool and fluffy fantasy mechanic but IMO feels very out of place in 40k. I can only suspend my disbelief in futuristic modern combat just so much and challenges (along with random charge length over completely clear ground) break that particular camel's back.
I can see the random charge distance as they also added overwatch. Getting shot at while running is going to either slow you down as you serpine to avoid getting shot or speed you up to close faster on the enemy depending on the situation.
But if I am an IG Segeant and a Chaos Champion challenges me to a duel I am sure as hell not going to accept, but I am also not going to skulk away ether. I'm going to light him up with every lasgun in my squad, then punch him with my powerfist while he isn't looking.
It doesn't stop you from getting shot; it just makes it way harder to hit you. Statistically professional shooters accuracy is decreased by 50% when firing at a moving target. (Based off a study of police training records)
Zweischneid wrote: But who says the Centurions are supposed to special in this "Sanguinary-Guard" style way? They are a siege-warfare exo-skeleton, that a regular Marine will step-into (or out-of) without taking off his Power Armour. I doubt it's the Sanguinary Guard (or even 1st Company Terminators) guys in a Chapter that get this job.
That is the point in all of this!
If they are just some heavy exo-skeleton, then why the "They have been here for 5000 years!"?
They could just say that they are a new invention, nobody would complain and none of the old fluff would be massacred.
But now we'll probably get some lore on "They were used in battle X and Y" while my codex doesn't mention anything like that.
Or they could have written they found them in a recovered forgeworld vault ready to be sent out to the legions before the Heresy began.
After many years of work and debate they had been declared sanctified and sent to the chapters for use. Politics became heavily involved in which chapters received the suits. The forgeworld has been rekindled and the units are in production. SInce it was only an ork invasion that had held the world for so long there was no chaos influence to cause the adeptus mechanicus to destroy them.
Imperial Deceit wrote: It doesn't stop you from getting shot; it just makes it way harder to hit you. Statistically professional shooters accuracy is decreased by 50% when firing at a moving target. (Based off a study of police training records)
Dude, watch the clip, it has to be done well to be effective... ;-) (and whilst a drama series it's based off a diary of real events, so you can watch it safe in the knowledge that real-life jarheads once mocked a real-life journalist for his zig-zag antics...)
Imperial Deceit wrote: I think we blew past the coffee stop a few pages back. But you have to admit its better then endless posts about how terrible Centi are.
Imperial Deceit wrote: However I assume that learning how to serpintine properly is something that SM are taught how to do.
I'd love to see these assault troops run in serpentine pattern
Imperial Deceit wrote: I think we blew past the coffee stop a few pages back. But you have to admit its better then endless posts about how terrible Centi are.
Marthike wrote: The real Problem is they are competing for the HS spot with thunder fire cannon which is the same (everything) as before.
A 2+ T7 model that is gonna be tough to compete and very cheap, unless the grav cannon centurion is just as good.
The real problem is, as stated previously, nothing in this release seems to be giving us anything to deal with trip Drakes lists, trip Riptides lists, or the 3 Eldar powerbuilds. Unless some of the units like Sternguard become much cheaper then this SM codex is going to be in the same boat as DA or CSM. Except at least the CSM dex has drakes and super cheap troops to make up for the shortcomings whereas DA and C:SM do not.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Imperial Deceit wrote: I think we blew past the coffee stop a few pages back. But you have to admit its better then endless posts about how terrible Centi are.
Imperial Deceit wrote: I think we blew past the coffee stop a few pages back. But you have to admit its better then endless posts about how terrible Centi are.
Well, turn around and get it before you become partly responsible for driving the thread into a Mod shaped wall.
Imperial Deceit wrote: However I assume that learning how to serpintine properly is something that SM are taught how to do.
I'd love to see these assault troops run in serpentine pattern
Imperial Deceit wrote: I think we blew past the coffee stop a few pages back. But you have to admit its better then endless posts about how terrible Centi are.
Better?
If they'd just put the Devastator Centurions' guns on the pauldrons instead of under the giant smashy fists we'd have a winner. I still want to see a rule allowing for a marine to be able to eject from from a stricken Centurion and be able to fight on foot as a fully-armed & armored marine.
The real problem is, as stated previously, nothing in this release seems to be giving us anything to deal with trip Drakes lists, trip Riptides lists, or the 3 Eldar powerbuilds. Unless some of the units like Sternguard become much cheaper then this SM codex is going to be in the same boat as DA or CSM. Except at least the CSM dex has drakes and super cheap troops to make up for the shortcomings whereas DA and C:SM do not.
For all we know, the Hunter or Stalker could have Ignores Cover and thus be hard-counters to Wave Serpents.
The real problem is, as stated previously, nothing in this release seems to be giving us anything to deal with trip Drakes lists, trip Riptides lists, or the 3 Eldar powerbuilds. Unless some of the units like Sternguard become much cheaper then this SM codex is going to be in the same boat as DA or CSM. Except at least the CSM dex has drakes and super cheap troops to make up for the shortcomings whereas DA and C:SM do not.
For all we know, the Hunter or Stalker could have Ignores Cover and thus be hard-counters to Wave Serpents.
IG Collosus have ignore cover and they arent a hard counter to wave serpents...
6^ wrote: Incidentally the grav weapons will make Mark of Nurgle more balanced. MoN bikes T6, wound on 3+ AP2! MoN obliterators: wound on 2+ AP2. LOVE IT.
Yes, because Power Armor needs ANOTHER thing that eats through it
Okay, just saw the new photo of the back of the Centurions at BOLS. So it's an augmenting suit like a Dreadknight and not an entirely new armor option. Give it an ejection rule and I'm cooler with it now than I was at first glance.
6^ wrote: Incidentally the grav weapons will make Mark of Nurgle more balanced. MoN bikes T6, wound on 3+ AP2! MoN obliterators: wound on 2+ AP2. LOVE IT.
Yes, because Power Armor needs ANOTHER thing that eats through it
Yeah that's unfortunate, however so is MoN being the only real choice in C:CSM. Now MoN has a hard counter and it's a costly mark.
The real problem is, as stated previously, nothing in this release seems to be giving us anything to deal with trip Drakes lists, trip Riptides lists, or the 3 Eldar powerbuilds. Unless some of the units like Sternguard become much cheaper then this SM codex is going to be in the same boat as DA or CSM. Except at least the CSM dex has drakes and super cheap troops to make up for the shortcomings whereas DA and C:SM do not.
For all we know, the Hunter or Stalker could have Ignores Cover and thus be hard-counters to Wave Serpents.
IG Collosus have ignore cover and they arent a hard counter to wave serpents...
The Hunter and Stalker most likely won't have blast weapons, as those can't fire on aircraft. Furthermore, they're probably going to be at least strength 7. If they're multi-shot S7+ weapons with Ignores Cover they'll be a counter to Wave Serpents.
6^ wrote: Incidentally the grav weapons will make Mark of Nurgle more balanced. MoN bikes T6, wound on 3+ AP2! MoN obliterators: wound on 2+ AP2. LOVE IT.
Yes, because Power Armor needs ANOTHER thing that eats through it
Yeah that's unfortunate, however so is MoN being the only real choice in C:CSM. Now MoN has a hard counter and it's a costly mark.
We don't know what the points cost will be on the grav gun do we? It could be more prohibitive than a meltagun
There is a summary by 40k radio on some rules changes. Probabily someone with very good eyes who had a look at the upcomming WD.
40k Radio wrote:Most things remained the same. Some units got cheaper vanguard, sternguard, honor guard, tactical marines and some special characters.
Same psychic disciplines and thunderfires are the same and same points.
Kantor is in.
Grav are nasty against heavy armored troops. the roll to wound is based of the armor save. So shooting termies you would wound on a 2+ and all types are AP2.
Lysander is still in there and he is still bad ass but he is 30pts more.
No new shooty HQ. MoF is still in the dex so he's your beat option. No way to make termies troops or scoring.
The only one that deviates in this way is Kantor, he allows sternguard to score. Khan gives bike and dedicated transports in the WS detachment scout.
No bionic rules but Iron Hands have army wide 6+ FNP and It Will Not Die for vehicles and characters .
Centurion "devastator" come with Twin-Linked Heavy bolter and hurricane bolter for 60 pts. You can have up to 6 in a squad.
Legion of the Damned have flaming projectiles. All ranged attacks have ignore cover special rule.
Black templars are in the book. They can not take some selections but have access to Centurions, Thunderfires, and so on. They have special rules for Chapter Tactics.
Chapter Tactics for the following chapters: Ultramarines, White Scars, Imperial Fist, Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard. They have two special rules per choice.
Centurions can be taken as Elites or Heavy.
Heavy support are the devastator option. They come with twin-linked Heavy bolters and Hurricane bolters. Hurricane can be upgraded to missile and HB upgraded to Twin- Las cannon or Grav-cannon and grav-amp.
Can upgrade to omniscope which gives night fight and split fire special rules.
They can select a Land Raider as a dedicated transport.
Special Rules: Slow and Purposeful, Decimator Protocols(Can fire up to two weapons in each shooting phase), Very Bulky, Chapter Tactics, and TSKNF.
Elites are the assault option. They come with Siege Drills at S9, twin-linked flamers and Ironclad assault launchers. They can upgrade flamers to meltas and assault launcher can be upgraded to hurricne bolters.
Can upgrade to omniscope which gives night fight and split fire special rules.
They can select a Land Raider as a dedicated transport.
Special Rules: Move through cover, Slow and Purposeful, Decimator Protocols(Can fire up to two weapons in each shooting phase), Very Bulky, Chapter Tactics, and TSKNF.
(Centurions) Two plus save no invul. Toughness and strength of five.
Also you can not deep strike the centurions.
Most things remained the same. Some units got cheaper vanguard, sternguard, honor guard, tactical marines and some special characters.
Same psychic disciplines and thunderfires are the same and same points.
Kantor is in.
Legion of the Damned are 25 points a model.
No Vows (Black Tenplars), just chapter tactics.
Grav are nasty against heavy armored troops. the roll to wound is based of the armor save. So shooting termies you would wound on a 2+ and all types are AP2.
The real problem is, as stated previously, nothing in this release seems to be giving us anything to deal with trip Drakes lists, trip Riptides lists, or the 3 Eldar powerbuilds. Unless some of the units like Sternguard become much cheaper then this SM codex is going to be in the same boat as DA or CSM. Except at least the CSM dex has drakes and super cheap troops to make up for the shortcomings whereas DA and C:SM do not.
For all we know, the Hunter or Stalker could have Ignores Cover and thus be hard-counters to Wave Serpents.
IG Collosus have ignore cover and they arent a hard counter to wave serpents...
The Hunter and Stalker most likely won't have blast weapons, as those can't fire on aircraft. Furthermore, they're probably going to be at least strength 7. If they're multi-shot S7+ weapons with Ignores Cover they'll be a counter to Wave Serpents.
really cost, RoF, and strength of the weapon are going to have a huge impact on if these are effective counters. I am just saying that ignores cover alone wont be enough.
This may already be posted here somewhere, but I didn't see it, so:
Hunter and Stalker are both S7. Hunter is AP2 with armorbane though. No idea how many shots they get, but at least the Hunter has some oomph to it.
EDIT: Apparently Stalker is 4 shots and Hunter is 1 shot. Makes sense.
BT get Adamantium Will and Crusader, along with buffs to melee in challenges. Crusader units can take two power weapons standard. EC has an AP2 sword striking at initiative and if you add the BT Chapter Tactics be becomes a challenge machine. He also has 2+/4++. Once per game Helbrecht can give Hatred and Fleet in the Assault phase. It only works on units with Chapter Tactics(Black Templars). BT can not take librarians.
IF get Bolter Drill (changed from TL to re-rolls ones?) that doesn't work for sternguard. Also get Tank Hunter for Centurions with +1 to vehicle damage rolls.
Salamanders get to re-roll wounds and penetrates on flame weapons, re-roll saves for failed armor saves against flame, weapons, and all characters get to master craft one weapon for free.
Iron Hands get 6+ FNP and It Will Not Die
Ultra marines choose the doctrines of Tactical, Assault, or Devastator. The Tactical detachment re-roll ones, unless they're tactical marines and they re-roll all failed to hit rolls in the shooting phase. The Assault detachment re-rolls charges, unless they're assault squads, bikes, attack bikes and they get fleet. The Devastator detachment get to re-rolls on snap shots and overwatch shots, unless they're Devastators and they gain relentless as long as they're not disembarking from a transport in the movement phase.
It looks like Tacticals will still be 1 special and 1 heavy per 10. That's not a direct quote, that's me interpolating from what was said. I could be wrong.
Ravens have stealth and get to use jump packs in assault and moving.
Can take a single unit of bikes as troops if HQ is on a bike
I'm interested in the new AA tanks, although I'm wondering if the jacks mean that they lost some or all of their utility if they move. the rumour about different chapter traits for various chapters sounds interesting though - the key for me though is the need for biker troops, either in the base codex or in a quick supplement.
I'm also interested in a few things no-one else has mentioned yet - particularly scout bikes and the land speeder storm. scout bikes are an interesting concept but just aren't good enough for the cost - perhaps they will change? As for the LSS, I'm really hoping for it to become a dedicated transport for scouts - at present the FA slot it eats is far too valuable!
I actually really like the idea of an AA blast template, it would be like an actual flac cannon. There is no reason why they can't write a rule that allows the new AA guns to fire blast against aircraft.
Imperial Deceit wrote: I actually really like the idea of an AA blast template, it would be like an actual flac cannon. There is no reason why they can't write a rule that allows the new AA guns to fire blast against aircraft.
If it only affected flyers it would be pretty pointless to do so. Very, very rarely are two flyers going to be close enough together to warrant a blast template over a straight shot.
6^ wrote: Incidentally the grav weapons will make Mark of Nurgle more balanced. MoN bikes T6, wound on 3+ AP2! MoN obliterators: wound on 2+ AP2. LOVE IT.
Yes, because Power Armor needs ANOTHER thing that eats through it
Yeah that's unfortunate, however so is MoN being the only real choice in C:CSM. Now MoN has a hard counter and it's a costly mark.
We don't know what the points cost will be on the grav gun do we? It could be more prohibitive than a meltagun
Maybe, I personally wonder how effective Grav gun spam will be. Poor wraith guard army :(
MadmanMSU wrote: Ravens have stealth and get to use jump packs in assault and moving.
Stealth Marines! Finally!
Given that these chapters get such interesting rules, I wonder what's in for Ultramarines?
Iron Hands get 6+ FNP and IWND on characters / vehicles, which is also quite good. Also taken form 40k Radio.
Ultramarines get Plot Armor, whenever there is a unit of more than 5, their armor save drops to 6+. A unit of 5 or less is only hit and wounded on 6s, preventing rerolls. A unit of 1 becomes toughness 10 and wins the game.
Hedgehog wrote:
Because White Scars are totally awesome?
Aye, I've been a fan of White Scars since Space Marine (and by that I mean old epic) but I was never convinced I could paint the white after a few places I've tried elsewhere, banners etc for other armies.
However I am thinking once again, maybe its time to get back on the hors... Bike.
Alfndrate wrote:
Because you saw the DCM thread about painting up First Founding Chapters, and you know we need a White Scars army
Imperial Deceit wrote: I actually really like the idea of an AA blast template, it would be like an actual flac cannon. There is no reason why they can't write a rule that allows the new AA guns to fire blast against aircraft.
If it only affected flyers it would be pretty pointless to do so. Very, very rarely are two flyers going to be close enough together to warrant a blast template over a straight shot.
Not really, a blast weapon at BS:4, especially if it is twin-linked or heavy >1 has a better chance of hitting a flyer. If you center it over the model you have to scatter atleast 2" to miss, and depending on the direction you need a scatter by 4" or more on some models. Flyers are very large. Given that the worst a BS:4 can scatter is 8 that means you have a 25%-50% chance of hitting the flyer even on a scatter, add in the 33% to not scatter at all you get a 71% chance to hit with a blast (assuming you scatter an equal amount in each direction) vs a 66% chance with a single BS:4 shot. If you get to re-roll, a large blast, or more then 1 shot the odds get even better.
MadmanMSU wrote: This may already be posted here somewhere, but I didn't see it, so:
Hunter and Stalker are both S7. Hunter is AP2 with armorbane though. No idea how many shots they get, but at least the Hunter has some oomph to it.
EDIT: Apparently Stalker is 4 shots and Hunter is 1 shot. Makes sense.
BT get Adamantium Will and Crusader, along with buffs to melee in challenges. Crusader units can take two power weapons standard.
IF get Bolter Drill (changed from TL to re-rolls ones?) that doesn't work for sternguard. Also get Tank Hunter for Centurions with +1 to vehicle damage rolls.
Salamanders get to re-roll wounds and penetrates on flame weapons, re-roll saves for failed armor saves against flame, weapons, and all characters get to master craft one weapon for free.
Iron Hands get 6+ FNP and It Will Not Die
Ravens have stealth and get to use jump packs in assault and moving.
Can take a single unit of bikes as troops if HQ is on a bike
Above is all from 40k Radio.
BT makes sense and is a rather clean way to do it. Called it on Ad Will (but forgot it was a USR). Crusader as a run and sweep boost is a lot different from Righteous zeal, is more limited but more controllable, and the name fits.
Iron Hands, awesome, my guys are a successor.
Flame weapons for Sallies is good, dropping meltas from that makes them less insane vs tanks. Mastercraft a weapon on characters is both fluffy, simple, and pretty useful.
Ravenguard, I would have thought Infiltrate before Stealth, but it makes scouts rather better, esp as it will stack with camo cloaks. Jump pack for move and assault makes their assault marines and vanguard decently more dangerous in assault. I like it.
IF bolter drill makes sense, though not on sternguard is sad. Bonus to centurions is a bit gimmicky though, kind of pushing the new kit.
Single unit of bikes with a bike HQ? bit more limiting, but I like it. Reign in FOC shenanigans, making it work more like Orks (one unit per HQ, not as many as you want like GK)
AlmightyWalrus wrote: On the plus side (as has been mentioned), assuming Templars don't follow their own allies chart, Sisters and Templars allies is a go!
If I remember correctly, the Black Templars allies chart is unchanged. They still follow the one in the book, for what its worth. Pretty sure that's what they said on 40k Radio.
EDIT: Well, it says their "allies matrix did not change". I don't know if that means they keep the old one or what. I'm assuming thats what it means.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: On the plus side (as has been mentioned), assuming Templars don't follow their own allies chart, Sisters and Templars allies is a go!
If I remember correctly, the Black Templars allies chart is unchanged. They still follow the one in the book, for what its worth. Pretty sure that's what they said on 40k Radio.
Lame, there goes me getting some Templar allies. :(
AlmightyWalrus wrote: On the plus side (as has been mentioned), assuming Templars don't follow their own allies chart, Sisters and Templars allies is a go!
Until its a 2 in 1 codex. And were bound to : - allies chart - limited access to codex choices
maybe we can benefit from a sisters dex. Play sisters as C: SM.... because no WD handy .... Hello green sisters?
MadmanMSU wrote: This may already be posted here somewhere, but I didn't see it, so:
Hunter and Stalker are both S7. Hunter is AP2 with armorbane though. No idea how many shots they get, but at least the Hunter has some oomph to it.
EDIT: Apparently Stalker is 4 shots and Hunter is 1 shot. Makes sense.
BT get Adamantium Will and Crusader, along with buffs to melee in challenges. Crusader units can take two power weapons standard.
IF get Bolter Drill (changed from TL to re-rolls ones?) that doesn't work for sternguard. Also get Tank Hunter for Centurions with +1 to vehicle damage rolls.
Salamanders get to re-roll wounds and penetrates on flame weapons, re-roll saves for failed armor saves against flame, weapons, and all characters get to master craft one weapon for free.
Iron Hands get 6+ FNP and It Will Not Die
Ravens have stealth and get to use jump packs in assault and moving.
Can take a single unit of bikes as troops if HQ is on a bike
Above is all from 40k Radio.
Hmm, a mobile quad gun may not be too shabby, especially if it gets split fire.
Can't say I like the Salamander rules for the following reasons:
1. I won't be penetrating anything with flamer weapons aside from AV10
2. Re-Roll saves against flamer weapons -- Almost all flamer weapons that wound me are AP3 or above (Helldrake, Wraithguard etc...), so that seems moot. It's rare that I get hit by a normal flamer......
So, the re-roll wounds on flamers and having a few master crafted weapons seems like the best bits. Granted this is all at face value, who knows if these are accurate or how the rest of the codex will benefit. Here's to hoping a compendium comes out for them quickly
Well I don't think that the mobility is as important as durablity. A quad gun is only s7 where as the AA will be atleast av 10 (although 11-12 is probably closer to the mark) and the fact that it can move should it have to lets it get some defense in cc. however much like the Hydra I doubt there is much reason to really move it around that much.
MadmanMSU wrote: If I remember correctly, the Black Templars allies chart is unchanged. They still follow the one in the book, for what its worth. Pretty sure that's what they said on 40k Radio.
EDIT: Well, it says their "allies matrix did not change". I don't know if that means they keep the old one or what. I'm assuming thats what it means.
The allies matrix goes by Codex, not by army list. So if the new Marine codex doesn't change it, and BT are now in the Marine codex, then BT now use the allies options for Codex Space Marines instead of Codex Black Templars.
MadmanMSU wrote: If I remember correctly, the Black Templars allies chart is unchanged. They still follow the one in the book, for what its worth. Pretty sure that's what they said on 40k Radio.
EDIT: Well, it says their "allies matrix did not change". I don't know if that means they keep the old one or what. I'm assuming thats what it means.
The allies matrix goes by Codex, not by army list. So if the new Marine codex doesn't change it, and BT are now in the Marine codex, then BT now use the allies options for Codex Space Marines instead of Codex Black Templars.
I'm aware of how the allies matrix works. You may be right, but the way the rumor was described makes it seem like BT still follow the matrix in the BRB. Take that for what you will.
Well given that technically codex rules beat BRB rules, having them in the C:SM would make them C:SM and not BT. However it is very possible there will be a seperate ally chart in the codex itself to represent the various chapter tactics.
Boy talk about bending over the Black Templars over a barrel. Those "tactics" are fething stupid. Yeah...in an edition of shooting...let's give them tactics for sweeping advances...
DUMB.
No more mixing neophytes with crusaders...let's retcon that fluff. No more vows...they never existed.
DUMB.
- Edited by insaniak. Please do not circumvent the language filter. -
lord_blackfang wrote: I really, really hope 1 unit of Bikes as Troops per HQ isn't all White Scars get without taking the special character.
I'm not very familiar with White Scars, but I'm guessing they would keep the "all bikes" army as a Dark Angels thing? Seems that way right now, anyway.
It might be a useful allies option for my Tau though. Single SM captain on a bike, tricked out, with a squad of scoring bikes with him.
lord_blackfang wrote: I really, really hope 1 unit of Bikes as Troops per HQ isn't all White Scars get without taking the special character.
I'm not very familiar with White Scars, but I'm guessing they would keep the "all bikes" army as a Dark Angels thing? Seems that way right now, anyway.
It might be a useful allies option for my Tau though. Single SM captain on a bike, tricked out, with a squad of scoring bikes with him.
White Scars are almost entirely mounted on bikes, including their Chapter Master. It's really more their thing then DA as only half of the DA function that way.
CaptKaruthors wrote: Boy talk about bending over the Black Templars over a barrel. Those "tactics" are stupid. Yeah...in an edition of shooting...let's give them tactics for sweeping advances...
DUMB.
No more mixing neophytes with crusaders...let's retcon that fluff. No more vows...they never existed.
DUMB.
40k Radio posted this earlier today:
Q: how big can a crusader squad be? A: Up to 10 Initiates and up to 10 Neos.
sockwithaticket wrote: With those Ravenguard rules there may be some BA players with jumper lists who are sorely tempted to start running a new kind of Blood Ravens.
Since I was already preparing to replace my bolt pistols with bolters in anticipation of this book...yeah, I for one will be happy to switch.
sockwithaticket wrote: With those Ravenguard rules there may be some BA players with jumper lists who are sorely tempted to start running a new kind of Blood Ravens.
Ha! Could be. Mine got benched until the next codex update, that's for sure.
*sigh* Ah well, I knew I shouldn't get my hopes up, but I suppose mediocre rules is better than barely acknowledging that the Iron Hands exist.
IWND is nice...if you run a vehicle-heavy list, since it will only ever affect a maximum of two infantry figures in your whole army(since HQ choices are the only characters with multiple wounds). 6+ FnP is....well, pointless, really. Once in a blue moon if I ritually sacrifice a goat and perform a raindance I might actually roll enough sixes at an opportune moment for it to make a difference in a game, but other than that, feh. I'd have much preferred the option to buy 5+ FnP on individual units, and been given a useful USR like Relentless or Fearless.
No special character, quelle surprise. MotF unchanged apparently, so a 2-wound no-invCC liability with a servo harness and a really expensive techmarine without one, and still no sign that GW are planning to acknowledge their own fluff and give IHMotF/Techmarines Rites of Battle. Still no option to give Tactical squad Sergeants Terminator armour.
Ah well, on the bright side, at least any desire to buy the Iron Hands limited edition version of the codex is gone now, so that'll save me a few bob.
Yodhrin wrote: *sigh* Ah well, I knew I shouldn't get my hopes up, but I suppose mediocre rules is better than barely acknowledging that the Iron Hands exist.
IWND is nice...if you run a vehicle-heavy list, since it will only ever affect a maximum of two infantry figures in your whole army(since HQ choices are the only characters with multiple wounds). 6+ FnP is....well, pointless, really. Once in a blue moon if I ritually sacrifice a goat and perform a raindance I might actually roll enough sixes at an opportune moment for it to make a difference in a game, but other than that, feh. I'd have much preferred the option to buy 5+ FnP on individual units, and been given a useful USR like Relentless or Fearless.
No special character, quelle surprise. MotF unchanged apparently, so a 2-wound no-invCC liability with a servo harness and a really expensive techmarine without one, and still no sign that GW are planning to acknowledge their own fluff and give IHMotF/Techmarines Rites of Battle. Still no option to give Tactical squad Sergeants Terminator armour.
Ah well, on the bright side, at least any desire to buy the Iron Hands limited edition version of the codex is gone now, so that'll save me a few bob.
It's a hell of a lot better than the Mark of Tzeentch which a) you have to pay for, and b) only applies if your normal save has been removed. In this instance anything that's S7 or less needs to inflict 17% more damage to you. Remember that every save you make, at any point in the game, is one marine you have still standing further down the line. I'd think it's probably the equivalent of 10% more troops, which is not at all bad.
With the latest rumours, I'm torn between excitement for my White Scars, and thinking THIS IS WHAT THE CHAOS CODEX SHOULD HAVE BEEN LIKE. Realistically, there's far more difference between the different Chaos legions than there is between most Space Marine Chapters (especially once the SW, DA and BA have been removed) - but the Chaos codex certainly doesn't provide the kind of force-specific flavour that individual Marine chapters are going to end up with.
I don't buy that it will be 'many years', simply because they're on the regular update treadmill now that makes them a ton of money.
At the rate GW have been releasing codecies I'm expecting a late 2014-early 2015 release for Blood Angels. Which is purely conjecture on my part, but given we're getting at least 6 codecies this year it isn't outside the realm of possibility.
Grav are nasty against heavy armored troops. the roll to wound is based of the armor save. So shooting termies you would wound on a 2+ and all types are AP2.
So do plasma...what´s new?
As for the centurions, as I said, bad looking models with worthless rules, why should people ever take them?
At least the salamander rules look characterful, better flame weapons and better survivability against "normal" flame weapons and squad leaders can finally start taking those plasma pistols, combi plasmas/meltas and power weapons and have them actually useful. That alone make for a big buff in challenges.
Those IF tactics... wow what a let down.
If that's the real thing, and all they get then... wow
Nerfed bolter drill on everything BUT sternguard... I suppose it's for balance but seriously? My CF will not be able to use that rule.
TH Centurions? Unless I can figure out a way to make the model look good and they have good rules, then no.
WTH didn't Cruddace give them stubborn? still kinda useless but it would at least stick to the fluff... especially more than TH Centurions...
Why would it be a few years? They have released 5 codices in 9 months. They will likely finish 2-3 more this year unless their well runs dry.
there won't be 3 more, probably not 2 more... they do release books for other things besides 40k and there arre only 4 more months in the year, with at least one going to hobbit... and one to space marines, that leave 2 other months... (maybe the inq thing that has been rumored) and fantasy
With the latest rumours, I'm torn between excitement for my White Scars, and thinking THIS IS WHAT THE CHAOS CODEX SHOULD HAVE BEEN LIKE. Realistically, there's far more difference between the different Chaos legions than there is between most Space Marine Chapters (especially once the SW, DA and BA have been removed) - but the Chaos codex certainly doesn't provide the kind of force-specific flavour that individual Marine chapters are going to end up with.
I beg to differ, now that plague marines, zerkers etc can be taken as troop with the right HQ choice then Chaos codex can certainly give a real theme to an army. Each of those Cult troop have at least 3 special rules to them giving them plenty of character on the table.
At most your getting two special rules and by the sounds of it not always a useful one, it gives them character but most will be playing them vanilla. Aka not often getting too much of a benefit from the extra special rules. This is ok however as it should have less of an effect on the balance of the game tbh.
With the latest rumours, I'm torn between excitement for my White Scars, and thinking THIS IS WHAT THE CHAOS CODEX SHOULD HAVE BEEN LIKE. Realistically, there's far more difference between the different Chaos legions than there is between most Space Marine Chapters (especially once the SW, DA and BA have been removed) - but the Chaos codex certainly doesn't provide the kind of force-specific flavour that individual Marine chapters are going to end up with.
Apparently Thousand Sons, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, and World Eaters actually do all field identical combat formations.....
I beg to differ, now that plague marines, zerkers etc can be taken as troop with the right HQ choice then Chaos codex can certainly give a real theme to an army. Each of those Cult troop have at least 3 special rules to them giving them plenty of character on the table.
At most your getting two special rules and by the sounds of it not always a useful one, it gives them character but most will be playing them vanilla. Aka not often getting too much of a benefit from the extra special rules. This is ok however as it should have less of an effect on the balance of the game tbh.
so for the cult troops, 4 of the legions are partiallty defined in that they have more of one type of unit. The rest of their army still plays exactly the same.
and that is 4 of the 9 chaos legions. 5 of them are 100% identical.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: Do you think grav weapons will have the haywire rule, given their fluff?
More than likely. THe rumored stats are already divergent for a 6thedition grav weapon family, in HH: Betrayal. I find it odd that the same weapons published by the same parent company will have 2 different rules.
Yeah, it's almost like the same company having Storm Shields that are 3++ in one book, and at the same time, 4++ in CC only in some other books. Inconceivable! :p
Wich should never have changed, Termies with a 4++ in CC was allready broken enough, no need for a constant 3++...
Im not going to start a rant, but it just stinks having to sacrifice my 7 Bolters , Flamer and Sergeants firepower to take a shot at a tank with my Lascannon....
I've always thought a good idea for tac. squads would be the option to have 1 heavy and 1 special or 2 heavy or 2 special weapons. That allows you to specialise their on field role whilst retaining the base flexibility that makes them the Space Marine work horse.
Pleased that my imperial Fist get Bolter drill even if its re rolls of 1s as that can always come in so handy when rapid firing.
Not as happy with the second rule as it means using centurions. Dont get me wrong i rather like the shooty ones but I wish it was sumit else like the iron hands tank rule or fnp.
o well you cant have everything
Anyone know weather you have to pay for these rules and is combat squads still in. Please let it be so.
Im not going to start a rant, but it just stinks having to sacrifice my 7 Bolters , Flamer and Sergeants firepower to take a shot at a tank with my Lascannon....
Combat Squads. You aren't getting split fire. Or you could design your Tac squads weapon load outs to have synergy, or don't take LasCannons on your Tac. Take flamer/ML instead. But I digress...
Im not going to start a rant, but it just stinks having to sacrifice my 7 Bolters , Flamer and Sergeants firepower to take a shot at a tank with my Lascannon....
Coughing up kill points and lowering my break point is not a tactical choice i like to have to make.
Like I said, its not a rant, it would just be really cool...
Combat squads is cool. U get a 10 man tac squad and get to split it into 2 units of five which can now act independently from each other and are 2 targets to boot.
As far as i know there is only one mission in the rule book that uses kill point, and if that rolls up don't combat squad if don't want.
Its the way ive started using my devastators. 10 man squad 2 lascannons 1 serg 2 missiles 5 tac marines. Combat squad them into two weapons teams in deployment. Now you can kinda split fire.
CF using IF chapter tactics and thus Tank Hunters for devastators means I gotta make me a squad of CF devastators... though I probably would have anyway Just still not sure if I'm going to be running CF as primary much, or just as BT allies.
I love Imperial Fists (and I assume Crimson Fist successors) getting Bolter Drill, just wish it extended to Sterns
However, TH on the Centurions sucks, soooo don't want to have to field those ugly things. I would rather see them get either
1) A once a game or turn buff/de-buff to a Fortification (Similar to Techmarine but specific to a Fortification)
2) A bonus/penalty to shooting from/at fortifications
This would do more to reflect their role as siege masters.
For Crimson Fist Specifically, having something to reflect the "Ceres Protocols" (where preservation of Space Marines is paramount during the rebuilding of the chapter following Rynn's World) would be especially fluffy, though I don't know how to work that.
CaptKaruthors wrote: Boy talk about bending over the Black Templars over a barrel. Those "tactics" are fething stupid. Yeah...in an edition of shooting...let's give them tactics for sweeping advances...
DUMB.
No more mixing neophytes with crusaders...let's retcon that fluff. No more vows...they never existed.
DUMB.
- Edited by insaniak. Please do not circumvent the language filter. -
Crusader squads are still around, and I'm still predicting Vows will be a special rule attached to the EC.
6^ wrote: Incidentally the grav weapons will make Mark of Nurgle more balanced. MoN bikes T6, wound on 3+ AP2! MoN obliterators: wound on 2+ AP2. LOVE IT.
I fail to see how that makes it "balanced". You pay through the bag for MoN. That's the "balance".
Ultra marines choose the doctrines of Tactical, Assault, or Devastator. The Tactical detachment re-roll ones, unless they're tactical marines and they re-roll all failed to hit rolls in the shooting phase.
As a fan of the good old tactical squad...I like this.
lord_blackfang wrote: I really, really hope 1 unit of Bikes as Troops per HQ isn't all White Scars get without taking the special character.
I'm not very familiar with White Scars, but I'm guessing they would keep the "all bikes" army as a Dark Angels thing? Seems that way right now, anyway.
It might be a useful allies option for my Tau though. Single SM captain on a bike, tricked out, with a squad of scoring bikes with him.
White Scars are almost entirely mounted on bikes, including their Chapter Master. It's really more their thing then DA as only one company of the DA function that way.
Fixed that for you.
The Salamanders rules seem fluffy but not sure how useful that is actually going to be. In the age of shooting, how many actually get in range to use flame weapons? If you are running a flame heavy army, you might as well be running an assault army, you have to get just as close if not closer to the bad guys. And in the age of AP2/AP3 flamers, how many saves are you going to be rerolling?
Iron Hands, well, at least they got something. IWND will be good for Dreads and tanks but doesn't do much for the rest of the guys.
6^ wrote: Incidentally the grav weapons will make Mark of Nurgle more balanced. MoN bikes T6, wound on 3+ AP2! MoN obliterators: wound on 2+ AP2. LOVE IT.
I fail to see how that makes it "balanced". You pay through the bag for MoN. That's the "balance".
And I don't see how it's any different from a Meltagun.
6^ wrote: Incidentally the grav weapons will make Mark of Nurgle more balanced. MoN bikes T6, wound on 3+ AP2! MoN obliterators: wound on 2+ AP2. LOVE IT.
I fail to see how that makes it "balanced". You pay through the bag for MoN. That's the "balance".
It's undercosted. If it were "Balanced" you would see other marks used. Now when you take MoN you risk grav spam making other cheaper marks or unmarked perhaps worth considering.
I think I may be happier if BT do get rolled into C:SM. My Space Marine collection is spread over several chapters, with a lot of stuff coming from Black Templars. If they simply become C:SM that will probably make life a little easier for me when I'm trying to mix things together or want to ally two chapters together.
On the other hand, if grav weapons are in fact true, my Deathwing-heavy DA army is probably going to get shelved right after I finished painting it. But, hey, if I wanted to play a game with models I've spent good time and money on, I wouldn't be playing 40k.
(Is it possible for White Scars to run an all bike army) Yes but you have to take 2 captains so you can get two bike squads to be troops.
So they crap all over White Scars armies everywhere, but yet Ultramarines get BS like Tactical Marines re-rolling all shooting and Relentless Devs? Someone at GW really needs to take off the UM fanboy cap and start looking at things clearly. Having your army nerfed is one thing, it happens and people should deal with it, but having your army made illegal so all the money spent and the effort exerted is 100% wasted is just bad form altogether.
prpetros wrote: Pleased that my imperial Fist get Bolter drill even if its re rolls of 1s as that can always come in so handy when rapid firing.
Not as happy with the second rule as it means using centurions. Dont get me wrong i rather like the shooty ones but I wish it was sumit else like the iron hands tank rule or fnp.
o well you cant have everything
Anyone know weather you have to pay for these rules and is combat squads still in. Please let it be so.
I have to wonder about the legitimacy of the IF chapter tactic rumor. All of the other chapter tactics effect the entire army, but the IF only effect certain units? Not sure I buy it, especially since Crimson Fists will use the IF chapter tactic (at least that's how I imagine it works).
Command squads not getting jump packs makes me a sad panda.
Shrike only being able to infiltrate with Jump troops is a bit of a nerf bat to the Shrike/Assault Terminator combo, but it really makes sense fluff wise.
If Vanguard are more effective, I might make a Shrike Wing out of them.
I will say that the Ultra rules (while way overdone compared to the other founding chapters) are pretty awesome for all of us playing one of 1000 Ultra successors. I will get to play my Silver Skulls all kinds of different ways with my variety of figures.
(Is it possible for White Scars to run an all bike army) Yes but you have to take 2 captains so you can get two bike squads to be troops.
This is total crap. So WS players have their entire collection invalidated (those that did build bike armies). So now they will have to run CA to run a 'fluffy' army.
(Is it possible for White Scars to run an all bike army) Yes but you have to take 2 captains so you can get two bike squads to be troops.
So they crap all over White Scars armies everywhere, but yet Ultramarines get BS like Tactical Marines re-rolling all shooting and Relentless Devs? Someone at GW really needs to take off the UM fanboy cap and start looking at things clearly. Having your army nerfed is one thing, it happens and people should deal with it, but having your army made illegal so all the money spent and the effort exerted is 100% wasted is just bad form altogether.
Guess I better go buy the new DA book instead.
Yup. That is total and utter crap. Looks like WS players will now have to buy CA to run their bikes.
untill the white scars supplement comes out and lets them field it properly. Same with black template and thier vows.
(Is it possible for White Scars to run an all bike army) Yes but you have to take 2 captains so you can get two bike squads to be troops.
So they crap all over White Scars armies everywhere, but yet Ultramarines get BS like Tactical Marines re-rolling all shooting and Relentless Devs? Someone at GW really needs to take off the UM fanboy cap and start looking at things clearly. Having your army nerfed is one thing, it happens and people should deal with it, but having your army made illegal so all the money spent and the effort exerted is 100% wasted is just bad form altogether.
Guess I better go buy the new DA book instead.
Yeah, the WS chapter tactics makes even less sense than the IF chapter tactics....makes me wonder if 40K radio isn't just messing with people.
SickSix wrote: I will say that the Ultra rules (while way overdone compared to the other founding chapters) are pretty awesome for all of us playing one of 1000 Ultra successors. I will get to play my Silver Skulls all kinds of different ways with my variety of figures.
(Is it possible for White Scars to run an all bike army) Yes but you have to take 2 captains so you can get two bike squads to be troops.
This is total crap. So WS players have their entire collection invalidated (those that did build bike armies). So now they will have to run CA to run a 'fluffy' army.
White Scars will be the first SM supplement book to come out, so I wouldn't worry about it...
What is the problem with fielding a tactical squad in your white scars army? DTs are gaining scout too. Bikes may be their claim to fame but it's hardly all they do. You can still field 4 bike squadrons if you want. I would go so far as to say an all bikes white scars is unfluffy.
SickSix wrote: I will say that the Ultra rules (while way overdone compared to the other founding chapters) are pretty awesome for all of us playing one of 1000 Ultra successors. I will get to play my Silver Skulls all kinds of different ways with my variety of figures.
(Is it possible for White Scars to run an all bike army) Yes but you have to take 2 captains so you can get two bike squads to be troops.
This is total crap. So WS players have their entire collection invalidated (those that did build bike armies). So now they will have to run CA to run a 'fluffy' army.
White Scars will be the first SM supplement book to come out, so I wouldn't worry about it...
Somehow I think having to pay another 50$ to use your army is something to worry about.
SickSix wrote: I will say that the Ultra rules (while way overdone compared to the other founding chapters) are pretty awesome for all of us playing one of 1000 Ultra successors. I will get to play my Silver Skulls all kinds of different ways with my variety of figures.
(Is it possible for White Scars to run an all bike army) Yes but you have to take 2 captains so you can get two bike squads to be troops.
This is total crap. So WS players have their entire collection invalidated (those that did build bike armies). So now they will have to run CA to run a 'fluffy' army.
White Scars will be the first SM supplement book to come out, so I wouldn't worry about it...
I wouldn't worry, I'd be fuming about such a naked cash grab. 'Oh, sorry guys, we just stiffed your army in the super expensive new codex. But, wait, we're restoring its viability with this similarly expensive smaller book in a few months.'
SickSix wrote: I will say that the Ultra rules (while way overdone compared to the other founding chapters) are pretty awesome for all of us playing one of 1000 Ultra successors. I will get to play my Silver Skulls all kinds of different ways with my variety of figures.
(Is it possible for White Scars to run an all bike army) Yes but you have to take 2 captains so you can get two bike squads to be troops.
This is total crap. So WS players have their entire collection invalidated (those that did build bike armies). So now they will have to run CA to run a 'fluffy' army.
White Scars will be the first SM supplement book to come out, so I wouldn't worry about it...
Somehow I think having to pay another 50$ to use your army is something to worry about.
SickSix wrote: I will say that the Ultra rules (while way overdone compared to the other founding chapters) are pretty awesome for all of us playing one of 1000 Ultra successors. I will get to play my Silver Skulls all kinds of different ways with my variety of figures.
(Is it possible for White Scars to run an all bike army) Yes but you have to take 2 captains so you can get two bike squads to be troops.
This is total crap. So WS players have their entire collection invalidated (those that did build bike armies). So now they will have to run CA to run a 'fluffy' army.
White Scars will be the first SM supplement book to come out, so I wouldn't worry about it...
Somehow I think having to pay another 50$ to use your army is something to worry about.
Assuming you can even get a copy of it. GW is still bouncing around a bit with regards to publishing books in print, iBook, and eBook.
6^ wrote: Incidentally the grav weapons will make Mark of Nurgle more balanced. MoN bikes T6, wound on 3+ AP2! MoN obliterators: wound on 2+ AP2. LOVE IT.
oh thats lovely, something that makes one of the few NOT bs options in a codex with more than enough rubbish obsolete yay.. so itll be back to tripple drakes... MoN isnt cheap nor undercosted, it costs twice as much per model as the others do, even up to 3x ... so yeah lets penalise it further. and on some units slaneesh is nice, swing before marines that kind of thing.
SickSix wrote: I will say that the Ultra rules (while way overdone compared to the other founding chapters) are pretty awesome for all of us playing one of 1000 Ultra successors. I will get to play my Silver Skulls all kinds of different ways with my variety of figures.
(Is it possible for White Scars to run an all bike army) Yes but you have to take 2 captains so you can get two bike squads to be troops.
This is total crap. So WS players have their entire collection invalidated (those that did build bike armies). So now they will have to run CA to run a 'fluffy' army.
White Scars will be the first SM supplement book to come out, so I wouldn't worry about it...
I wouldn't worry, I'd be fuming about such a naked cash grab. 'Oh, sorry guys, we just stiffed your army in the super expensive new codex. But, wait, we're restoring its viability with this similarly expensive smaller book in a few months.'
SickSix wrote: I will say that the Ultra rules (while way overdone compared to the other founding chapters) are pretty awesome for all of us playing one of 1000 Ultra successors. I will get to play my Silver Skulls all kinds of different ways with my variety of figures.
(Is it possible for White Scars to run an all bike army) Yes but you have to take 2 captains so you can get two bike squads to be troops.
This is total crap. So WS players have their entire collection invalidated (those that did build bike armies). So now they will have to run CA to run a 'fluffy' army.
White Scars will be the first SM supplement book to come out, so I wouldn't worry about it...
I wouldn't worry, I'd be fuming about such a naked cash grab. 'Oh, sorry guys, we just stiffed your army in the super expensive new codex. But, wait, we're restoring its viability with this similarly expensive smaller book in a few months.'
And this being GW, this surprises you?
Not in the least, but it still grates hard and confirms my decision to buy the very few things I want off ebay.
6^ wrote: What is the problem with fielding a tactical squad in your white scars army? DTs are gaining scout too. Bikes may be their claim to fame but it's hardly all they do. You can still field 4 bike squadrons if you want. I would go so far as to say an all bikes white scars is unfluffy.
Say it isn't fluffy all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that it is fluffy. Furthermore Dedicated Transports only get Scout with Khan, and again do nothing to mitigate the huge problem that you seem to be missing here. The issue is that many people have all bike White Scars armies, and for the first time in a very long time GW have released the new book and made the armies of loads of players totally unplayable. Maybe to you it isn't a big deal, but to those of us that have spent a lot of money on the models and a lot of time painting them it is a very big deal that we now can't use them.
And to those above saying we're getting a supplement soon, when your army requires a €50 Codex and a €39 supplement to play you come back and tell me it's ok and it doesn't bother you one bit.
SickSix wrote: I will say that the Ultra rules (while way overdone compared to the other founding chapters) are pretty awesome for all of us playing one of 1000 Ultra successors. I will get to play my Silver Skulls all kinds of different ways with my variety of figures.
(Is it possible for White Scars to run an all bike army) Yes but you have to take 2 captains so you can get two bike squads to be troops.
This is total crap. So WS players have their entire collection invalidated (those that did build bike armies). So now they will have to run CA to run a 'fluffy' army.
White Scars will be the first SM supplement book to come out, so I wouldn't worry about it...
I wouldn't worry, I'd be fuming about such a naked cash grab. 'Oh, sorry guys, we just stiffed your army in the super expensive new codex. But, wait, we're restoring its viability with this similarly expensive smaller book in a few months.'
And this being GW, this surprises you?
Not in the least, but it still grates hard and confirms my decision to buy the very few things I want off ebay.
Same here dude. I haven't bought anything from GW directly since 2011...
Formosa wrote: Prppetros, please don't use text talk, it makes you look stpd and lzy.
Ot, if these changes are true then I'm going to enjoy useing my crimson fists again.
Insults an individual for using text short hand...proceeds to use forum short hand. Hypocrisy is amusing.
Any who, I am interested to see if there are new wargear choices. Like relics or banners and such. I wonder if power weapons will stay just power weapons or will marines need to choose from only a few different types.
From what I can see it is all shaping up fairly well I must say.
Vanguard and Sternguard coming down in price sounds great.
I always liked those two units, it was always just a problem that a force that was heavy with them had few scoring units unless you took Pedro.
And then there was the fact that you still had to take two Tactical squads, and that tactical squads were just TERRIBLE. Overcosted, required hoops to be jumped through just to be useful, schizophrenic with the special and heavy weapon, and just so darn "ok at everything but not good at any one thing" that I just up and bailed to SW and haven't really looked back since (except for bike armies).
AND THEN there was the whole fact that Vanguard were waaaaay overcosted. 30 pts for a 3+ one wound model with a jump pack was just silly, and has only gotten sillier with the proliferation of AP3 stuff. Getting them down to around 25 pts with the jump pack will make them somewhat viable.
I would love for Kantor and Shrike to make Sternguard and Vanguard troops respectively, but it sounds like the former will only happen as scoring, and the latter seemingly won't happen at all. Oh well, at least they'll be viable to field, even if they aren't straight up troops.
Sternguard, the Space Marine veterans who are more disciplined and skilled than Tactical Marines, don't get it? What?
I kind of get it from a game balance perspective, but it doesn't make a lick of sense for tactical Marines to be better shots than veterans.
I read the formatted version of the Q&A that was linked to earlier, and the wording there implies Sternguard will get Bolter Drill, just not for their special ammo(which makes sense in respect that the special ammo likely requires a different skillset to fire than the regular bolter ammo they'd been training with since they were Scouts).
NickTheButcher wrote:It's undercosted. If it were "Balanced" you would see other marks used. Now when you take MoN you risk grav spam making other cheaper marks or unmarked perhaps worth considering.
Not really. It's pretty externally balanced for its point cost. It may not be internally balanced, but that has more to do with the others being bad values than MoN being out of whack.
40k Radio's Facebook. I've been turning it into a proper Q&A though on Heresy Online.
Checked out your thread there. Thanks for doing that work!
The focus has been on BT and the Centurions, but the price drops on a lot of the units are really encouraging. With point costs dropping apparently across the board, it's probably a fairly safe bet that Scout Bikers will be lower cost, too. The more I read about the other stuff, the more excited I am.
40k Radio's Facebook. I've been turning it into a proper Q&A though on Heresy Online.
Checked out your thread there. Thanks for doing that work!
The focus has been on BT and the Centurions, but the price drops on a lot of the units are really encouraging. With point costs dropping apparently across the board, it's probably a fairly safe bet that Scout Bikers will be lower cost, too. The more I read about the other stuff, the more excited I am.
If the ultramarine rumors are true I am extremely glad that i have accumulated a massive amount of Tactical marines in recent years (like 80+) so now i can engulf my foes in a BLUE TIDE of bolter fire and holy melta fire.
Found this on the thread on bols. Credit goes to 40kWarzone
UNIT CHANGES
-Chaplains are HQ , W:2, A:2 and grant Zealot.
-Master of the Forge gains It Will Not Die
-Scouts drop 2 points, can take LS Storm as a dedicated transport.
-Tacticals drop 2 points.
-Devastators drop 2 points.
-Sternguard drop 3 points.
-Vanguard drop 1 point, jumppack option drops 7 points.
-Honour guard are cheaper.
-SM Bikes drop 4 points.
-Hunter/Stalker re both armed with s:7 weapons (Stalker heavy4, Hunter heavy1). The Hunter's weapon is AP:2 Armorbane.
-Command Squads may take bikes, and a bike-equipped Commander makes a SM Biker unit troops.
-Crusader Squads may take 2 power weapons per squad. Costed and equipped as Tacticals as standard. May swap out for BP/CCW for free. Max size 10 Initiates and 10 Neophytes.
-Centurions WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W2 I4 Ld8/9 Sv2, Squad size 3-6, each costed as a Predator.
CHAPTER ABILITIES
- Raven Guard have Stealth, may use jump packs in movement AND assault phase.
- Imperial Fists reroll '1s' to hit with standard bolters (Bolter Drill). Devatators/Centurions have Tank Hunters and +1 on the building damage table.
- Salamanders reroll failed to-wounds with flame weapons, and failed armor penetration rolls versus vehicles. Characters gain a free master crafted weapon. Vulkan is the only way to grant twin-linked meltas.
- Black Templars have Chapter Tactics options instead of Vows. The Emperor's Champion is an HQ choice for them only and chooses from either (reroll failed to-hits plus rending in challenges), or (gain Adamantium Will plus Crusader). No Librarians allowed.
- Ultramarines choose from one of the following donctrines:
a) Tactical - Re-roll ones, unless they're Tactical marines and they re-roll all shooting failed to hits.
b) Assault - Re-roll charge distance, unless they're Assault squads, Bikes, Attack bikes who gain Fleet.
c) Devstator - Re-roll on snap shots and overwatch, unless they're Devastators who gain Relentless (except when disembarking).
- White Scars bike equipped Captain makes 1 bike squad troops
- Successor Chapter use the Chapter Tactics of their Founding Chapter. Many Successor Chapters are listed by name.
NEW ITEMS
6 new Chapter Relics
Grav Weapons have Concussive
CHARACTERS
-Marneus Calgar may take 3 Warlord Traits and is pricier.
-Korsarro Khan grants Scout to mounted troops and bikes. He inflicts D3 Hammer of Wrath hits.
-Kayvan Shrike may Infiltrate with Jumppack units.
-Emperor's Champion equipped with AP:2 sword, armor is 2+/4+i
-High-Marshal Helbrecht grants Hatred and Fleet to Black Templars in the Assault phase once per game.
-Lysander returns with Eternal Warrior, Units in 12" re-roll on morale and pinning test.
-Grimaldus Grants Zealot to his unit.
-Several Named Characters retain USRs that affect their entire army.
Theophony wrote: @davou, I didn't think we were allowed to list specific points and stats on dakkadakka
For rumors it seems tacitly accepted to post stats, or in more conservative cases dumb work arounds like "the new sternguard cost 2 points more than 2 fire warriors".
l0k1 wrote: Found this on the thread on bols. Credit goes to 40kWarzone
UNIT CHANGES
-Chaplains are HQ , W:2, A:2 and grant Zealot.
-Master of the Forge gains It Will Not Die
-Scouts drop 2 points, can take LS Storm as a dedicated transport.
-Tacticals drop 2 points.
-Devastators drop 2 points.
-Sternguard drop 3 points.
-Vanguard drop 1 point, jumppack option drops 7 points.
-Honour guard are cheaper.
-SM Bikes drop 4 points.
-Hunter/Stalker re both armed with s:7 weapons (Stalker heavy4, Hunter heavy1). The Hunter's weapon is AP:2 Armorbane.
-Command Squads may take bikes, and a bike-equipped Commander makes a SM Biker unit troops.
-Crusader Squads may take 2 power weapons per squad. Costed and equipped as Tacticals as standard. May swap out for BP/CCW for free. Max size 10 Initiates and 10 Neophytes.
-Centurions WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W2 I4 Ld8/9 Sv2, Squad size 3-6, each costed as a Predator.
CHAPTER ABILITIES
- Raven Guard have Stealth, may use jump packs in movement AND assault phase.
- Imperial Fists reroll '1s' to hit with standard bolters (Bolter Drill). Devatators/Centurions have Tank Hunters and +1 on the building damage table.
- Salamanders reroll failed to-wounds with flame weapons, and failed armor penetration rolls versus vehicles. Characters gain a free master crafted weapon. Vulkan is the only way to grant twin-linked meltas.
- Black Templars have Chapter Tactics options instead of Vows. The Emperor's Champion is an HQ choice for them only and chooses from either (reroll failed to-hits plus rending in challenges), or (gain Adamantium Will plus Crusader). No Librarians allowed.
- Ultramarines choose from one of the following donctrines:
a) Tactical - Re-roll ones, unless they're Tactical marines and they re-roll all shooting failed to hits.
b) Assault - Re-roll charge distance, unless they're Assault squads, Bikes, Attack bikes who gain Fleet.
c) Devstator - Re-roll on snap shots and overwatch, unless they're Devastators who gain Relentless (except when disembarking).
- White Scars bike equipped Captain makes 1 bike squad troops
- Successor Chapter use the Chapter Tactics of their Founding Chapter. Many Successor Chapters are listed by name.
NEW ITEMS
6 new Chapter Relics
Grav Weapons have Concussive
CHARACTERS
-Marneus Calgar may take 3 Warlord Traits and is pricier.
-Korsarro Khan grants Scout to mounted troops and bikes. He inflicts D3 Hammer of Wrath hits.
-Kayvan Shrike may Infiltrate with Jumppack units.
-Emperor's Champion equipped with AP:2 sword, armor is 2+/4+i
-High-Marshal Helbrecht grants Hatred and Fleet to Black Templars in the Assault phase once per game.
-Lysander returns with Eternal Warrior, Units in 12" re-roll on morale and pinning test.
-Grimaldus Grants Zealot to his unit.
-Several Named Characters retain USRs that affect their entire army.
Hmmm... I wonder if it is "characters" or "Independent Characters". If my Sergeants get free Mastercrafted Combi weapons . I hope Vulkan still Master Crafts Thunder Hammers but that is probably a little pie in the sky.
6^ wrote: Incidentally the grav weapons will make Mark of Nurgle more balanced. MoN bikes T6, wound on 3+ AP2! MoN obliterators: wound on 2+ AP2. LOVE IT.
I fail to see how that makes it "balanced". You pay through the bag for MoN. That's the "balance".
It's undercosted. If it were "Balanced" you would see other marks used. Now when you take MoN you risk grav spam making other cheaper marks or unmarked perhaps worth considering.
Or it could be that the other marks are pretty lame in what they give/do. 2 of the other 3 are assault oriented. In 6th, assault is such a small part of the game now. Tzeentch is cool if you already have an invulnerable save. If not, 6++ is largely meh. But too each his own.
6^ wrote: Incidentally the grav weapons will make Mark of Nurgle more balanced. MoN bikes T6, wound on 3+ AP2! MoN obliterators: wound on 2+ AP2. LOVE IT.
oh thats lovely, something that makes one of the few NOT bs options in a codex with more than enough rubbish obsolete yay.. so itll be back to tripple drakes...
MoN isnt cheap nor undercosted, it costs twice as much per model as the others do, even up to 3x ... so yeah lets penalise it further. and on some units slaneesh is nice, swing before marines that kind of thing.
Nice to see someone else who gets it. Cheers.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
l0k1 wrote: UNIT CHANGES
-Chaplains are HQ , W:2, A:2 and grant Zealot.
-Master of the Forge gains It Will Not Die
-Scouts drop 2 points, can take LS Storm as a dedicated transport.
-Tacticals drop 2 points.
-Devastators drop 2 points.
-Sternguard drop 3 points.
-Vanguard drop 1 point, jumppack option drops 7 points.
-Honour guard are cheaper.
-SM Bikes drop 4 points.
-Hunter/Stalker re both armed with s:7 weapons (Stalker heavy4, Hunter heavy1). The Hunter's weapon is AP:2 Armorbane.
-Command Squads may take bikes, and a bike-equipped Commander makes a SM Biker unit troops.
-Crusader Squads may take 2 power weapons per squad. Costed and equipped as Tacticals as standard. May swap out for BP/CCW for free. Max size 10 Initiates and 10 Neophytes.
-Centurions WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W2 I4 Ld8/9 Sv2, Squad size 3-6, each costed as a Predator.
CHAPTER ABILITIES
- Raven Guard have Stealth, may use jump packs in movement AND assault phase.
- Imperial Fists reroll '1s' to hit with standard bolters (Bolter Drill). Devatators/Centurions have Tank Hunters and +1 on the building damage table.
- Salamanders reroll failed to-wounds with flame weapons, and failed armor penetration rolls versus vehicles. Characters gain a free master crafted weapon. Vulkan is the only way to grant twin-linked meltas.
- Black Templars have Chapter Tactics options instead of Vows. The Emperor's Champion is an HQ choice for them only and chooses from either (reroll failed to-hits plus rending in challenges), or (gain Adamantium Will plus Crusader). No Librarians allowed.
- Ultramarines choose from one of the following donctrines:
a) Tactical - Re-roll ones, unless they're Tactical marines and they re-roll all shooting failed to hits.
b) Assault - Re-roll charge distance, unless they're Assault squads, Bikes, Attack bikes who gain Fleet.
c) Devstator - Re-roll on snap shots and overwatch, unless they're Devastators who gain Relentless (except when disembarking).
- White Scars bike equipped Captain makes 1 bike squad troops
- Successor Chapter use the Chapter Tactics of their Founding Chapter. Many Successor Chapters are listed by name.[u]
NEW ITEMS
6 new Chapter Relics
Grav Weapons have Concussive
CHARACTERS
-Marneus Calgar may take 3 Warlord Traits and is pricier.
-Korsarro Khan grants Scout to mounted troops and bikes. He inflicts D3 Hammer of Wrath hits.
-Kayvan Shrike may Infiltrate with Jumppack units.
-Emperor's Champion equipped with AP:2 sword, armor is 2+/4+i
-High-Marshal Helbrecht grants Hatred and Fleet to Black Templars in the Assault phase once per game.
-Lysander returns with Eternal Warrior, Units in 12" re-roll on morale and pinning test.
-Grimaldus Grants Zealot to his unit.
-Several Named Characters retain USRs that affect their entire army.
6^ wrote: Incidentally the grav weapons will make Mark of Nurgle more balanced. MoN bikes T6, wound on 3+ AP2! MoN obliterators: wound on 2+ AP2. LOVE IT.
I fail to see how that makes it "balanced". You pay through the bag for MoN. That's the "balance".
It's undercosted. If it were "Balanced" you would see other marks used. Now when you take MoN you risk grav spam making other cheaper marks or unmarked perhaps worth considering.
Or it could be that the other marks are pretty lame in what they give/do. 2 of the other 3 are assault oriented. In 6th, assault is such a small part of the game now. Tzeentch is cool if you already have an invulnerable save. If not, 6++ is largely meh. But too each his own.
Take it to another thread guys you've been dragging this one OT for a couple pages.
This is total crap. So WS players have their entire collection invalidated (those that did build bike armies). So now they will have to run CA to run a 'fluffy' army.
I'm not seeing a huge issue here: 42 bikes per org chart in these rumors, or grab dark angels. Two valid enough options, what army of miniatures can they not use exactly?
The Ultramarines Tactical trait sounds head and shoulders better than the Fists' Bolter Drill. Reroll all misses with Tactical Marines vs. reroll 1s? That's just kind of insulting if that's exactly how it's written. I'm hoping something got lost in translation or left out.
Hmmm,what happens if you take one of the characters from forge world, since it stated that they replace combat tactics with one of their traits, and since now instead of combat tactics you have those new stuff,usually 2? What do they replace exactly?
Brother SRM wrote: The Ultramarines Tactical trait sounds head and shoulders better than the Fists' Bolter Drill. Reroll all misses with Tactical Marines vs. reroll 1s? That's just kind of insulting if that's exactly how it's written. I'm hoping something got lost in translation or left out.
The only way I see this balancing out is if Bolter Drill DOES apply to Sternguard (I know, its rumored not to, but thats pretty bad if not)
I don't see why new masters being released for the new Apocalypse would effect the new Codex: Space Marines. Masters of the Watch didn't become a thing in the 5th Codex when it launched, nor did Masters of the Armory, Fleet, or Recruits.
Any word about assault squads going down in price (point wise )? Also anything about the changes to heroic intervention? Vanguard still elite i hope....
I can't seem to find anything in this thread i might scour the interwebs :/
Why do I even bother busting out my chaos marines anymore? If anyone wants to PM me about 3,000 points of Iron Warriors feel free to. I think I'd rather fix up my classic car than ride out another edition as the redheaded stepchild.
(Is it possible for White Scars to run an all bike army) Yes but you have to take 2 captains so you can get two bike squads to be troops.
This is total crap. So WS players have their entire collection invalidated (those that did build bike armies). So now they will have to run CA to run a 'fluffy' army.
Having to add in an extra HQ doesn't invalidate your entire colection. It just requires a re-jig of your army list. Something that pretty much everyone has to do every single time any codex is revised.
aaaaand cue the wailing and gnashing of teeth that GW just screwed Space Marines...
Not screwed, per se, but I'd be interested in seeing if they are able to shoot ground targets without being BS1. If not, the tanks will be pretty much worthless. If they can shoot ground targets as well, fine, it kind of sucks not having interceptor, but on the other hand, Interceptor is kind of a bs rule anyways in the sense that it can take away enemy models on their turn without getting a chance to use it.
aaaaand cue the wailing and gnashing of teeth that GW just screwed Space Marines...
Not screwed, per se, but I'd be interested in seeing if they are able to shoot ground targets without being BS1. If not, the tanks will be pretty much worthless. If they can shoot ground targets as well, fine, it kind of sucks not having interceptor, but on the other hand, Interceptor is kind of a bs rule anyways in the sense that it can take away enemy models on their turn without getting a chance to use it.
Without Interceptor they have to way to shoot at ground targets at a BS higher than 1 unless they're gun has 2 firing modes, which has not been put forth as an option by the rumors I've seen so far.
aaaaand cue the wailing and gnashing of teeth that GW just screwed Space Marines...
Not screwed, per se, but I'd be interested in seeing if they are able to shoot ground targets without being BS1. If not, the tanks will be pretty much worthless. If they can shoot ground targets as well, fine, it kind of sucks not having interceptor, but on the other hand, Interceptor is kind of a bs rule anyways in the sense that it can take away enemy models on their turn without getting a chance to use it.
Without both Skyfire and Interceptor, it is firing at BS 1. But, much like the Hydra, maybe it isn't made to shoot at ground targets. Maybe not everything has to have multiple roles. If one has a lot of reserves/flyers, then it will be a preferred weapon.
aaaaand cue the wailing and gnashing of teeth that GW just screwed Space Marines...
Not screwed, per se, but I'd be interested in seeing if they are able to shoot ground targets without being BS1. If not, the tanks will be pretty much worthless. If they can shoot ground targets as well, fine, it kind of sucks not having interceptor, but on the other hand, Interceptor is kind of a bs rule anyways in the sense that it can take away enemy models on their turn without getting a chance to use it.
Without Interceptor they have to way to shoot at ground targets at a BS higher than 1 unless they're gun has 2 firing modes, which has not been put forth as an option by the rumors I've seen so far.
It only gets one shot, like the Icarus Lascannon. Plus armorbane. I guess it depends on your meta. If you face tons of flyers(stupid Necrons) they will be useful. If you don't face many flyers, not so much. I guess we'll have to wait to see if they can shoot ground targets. Plus, it will probably get FAQ'd.
aaaaand cue the wailing and gnashing of teeth that GW just screwed Space Marines...
Not screwed, per se, but I'd be interested in seeing if they are able to shoot ground targets without being BS1. If not, the tanks will be pretty much worthless. If they can shoot ground targets as well, fine, it kind of sucks not having interceptor, but on the other hand, Interceptor is kind of a bs rule anyways in the sense that it can take away enemy models on their turn without getting a chance to use it.
Without both Skyfire and Interceptor, it is firing at BS 1. But, much like the Hydra, maybe it isn't made to shoot at ground targets. Maybe not everything has to have multiple roles. If one has a lot of reserves/flyers, then it will be a preferred weapon.
Perhaps. They could always write a special rule in that would allow them to have Skyfire as well as shoot at ground targets, but, like you said, it doesn't need it.
I just probably won't buy any, despite how cool they look, if they aren't usable in my local meta. (which is relatively flyer-light. The most I've seen on the regular basis is two in an army list, being Night Scythes. Well, I did play Elysians one time, but I won on objectives by hitting the deck and praying to the emprah.)
Interceptor, skyfire, armorbane and the likely range (60+) would make it far too good against all vehicles. They need a rule like 'skybane: armorbane vs flyers and fleshbane vs FMC' for it to to not be overwhelming.
I have a feeling that without interceptor the two AA tanks will be played fairly lightly over the next year or so.
Then, once more codices are out and a bunch of armies have flyers, and the meta has evolved such that most armies have at least one or two, the tanks will become far more common.
I think, atm, I'd prefer a Stormraven and ADL over the tanks, seeing as those two units can do some solid damage to aerial forces while still doing a lot of damage to ground units. That being said, the moment flyers start popping up in pairs or more on a majority of lists, I'm upgrading to those tanks.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I think im drooling. I want that now. Im going to have to convert one but im making it. Even is i have ot use a paint dropper as the cannon.
Seeing as the tank's are currently shooting at ground targets at BS1, they are meh.
Sternguard, the Space Marine veterans who are more disciplined and skilled than Tactical Marines, don't get it? What?
I kind of get it from a game balance perspective, but it doesn't make a lick of sense for tactical Marines to be better shots than veterans.
I read the formatted version of the Q&A that was linked to earlier, and the wording there implies Sternguard will get Bolter Drill, just not for their special ammo(which makes sense in respect that the special ammo likely requires a different skillset to fire than the regular bolter ammo they'd been training with since they were Scouts).
"Let's give sternguard Bolter Drill then take take away the reason you take them in the first place!"
Wow... the more I read about IF/CF the les excited I become...
EDIT:
l0k1 wrote: UNIT CHANGES CHAPTER ABILITIES - Imperial Fists reroll '1s' to hit with standard bolters (Bolter Drill). Devatators/Centurions have Tank Hunters and +1 on the building damage table.
CHARACTERS -Several Named Characters retain USRs that affect their entire army.
Ok, if this s true (sternguard get bonus and keep ammo and Kantor keeping army-wide stubborn/scoring stern) I'll be happy
Brother SRM wrote: The Ultramarines Tactical trait sounds head and shoulders better than the Fists' Bolter Drill. Reroll all misses with Tactical Marines vs. reroll 1s? That's just kind of insulting if that's exactly how it's written. I'm hoping something got lost in translation or left out.
Yes, the UM Tactical trait is easily better than anything than the other chapters can offer, and makes IF bolter drill look pathetic. Also, it bugs me that we apparently have two chapters whose Tactical Marines are better shots than their Sternguard. (Though UM Sternguard are as good shots as IF Tacticals...)
If IF Sternguard don't get to re-rolls 1 with bolter drill....
...I don't even know.
The result, of course, would be that if there was any rules loophole allowing me to take Pedro Kantor in a UM force taking the Tactical rule, I would do that in a heartbeat, and then add Sternguard in.
If not...*sigh* I guess I'll play IF with Kantor to get them in, but GW would have really screwed the pooch on that one. However, if Sternguard have gone down in cost, to say, 23 points, that helps (unit of 10 with 4 combi-weapons and a powerfist comes in at 275, instead of 295, a nice 20 point drop).
On the plus side with IF, all those Long Fangs I made will come in handy with the Devastators tank hunters thing. Missile Launchers all over the place, this time with some flakk. Downside to that is that outside of casual play, devastators will still get shredded by hellturkeys and other AP3 goodies.
I hope there's an option for a Mastery Level 3 psyker where I can choose powers. I want 3 powers off of the biomancer table, preferably any three of 1-4. Stick that bad boy with 9 Sternguard, and watch the carnage as your buddies fire into an enemy force that's at -1 toughness, and then charges because of relentless, with the Libby all the while either boosting their strength, toughness, and getting EW (challenges much), or shooting a couple guys dead with the life siphon.
Eldercaveman wrote: Is there anyway of getting scoring/troop vanguard vets or assault marines in this codex, do we know yet?
There is a Hq in the Forgeworld book. Babad(or however you spell it) book 1. I do believe it is the Firehawk hq allows Assault and Vanguard as troops. Being as FW is 100% leagle in games now I've been looking into these Hq's. Well see what the new codex brings us. I am quiet excited so far.
Eldercaveman wrote: Is there anyway of getting scoring/troop vanguard vets or assault marines in this codex, do we know yet?
There is a Hq in the Forgeworld book. Babad(or however you spell it) book 1. I do believe it is the Firehawk hq allows Assault and Vanguard as troops. Being as FW is 100% leagle in games now I've been looking into these Hq's. Well see what the new codex brings us. I am quiet excited so far.
I'm going to need to look into that, I've always been interested in an all vanguard as troops army, but there was obviously no way to do it.
I've always loved the idea of devestators...just not their point costs and limitations. The UM devastator trait seems quite nice though; who doesn't like the idea of a bunch of plasma cannons and lascannons running around, like a boss, blasting things.
Though the Raven Guard one sounds very, very nice. I'm partial to Vanguard, Assault marines and Scouts with my Blood Ravens, despite their terribleness, and the whole "unknown founder" business and pretty adaptive style of warfare the BR have been portrayed with gives me some flexibility in choices. Decisions, decisions.
Or I could just say "feth it" and keep working on Tau.
Looks like UM are definitely the winners when it comes to Chapter traits, and tactical doctrine wins out of all their traits.
Makes me glad that (A) I play UM successors, so no chance of being accused of bandwagon jumping and (B) I already try to take at least 1 tactical squad per 500 points.
Re the AA tanks, I don't think lack of Interceptor is that big a deal. As has already been said, it might have made them a little too good. As it is you can already choose between anti-air armourbane or being able to target two flyers independently with BS4 autocannons, sounds like a good package to me.
IF rules are pretty weak. Bolter Drill is a joke, as it only lets you re-roll ones with your normal bolters, not with special ammo and probably not with stormbolters either. It makes you tactical squads a tiny bit shootier, but if you wanted to spam shooty tacticals, UM lets you re-roll all misses with them, including heavy and special weapons, whilst giving re-rolling ones to all those other units and weapons IF Bolter Drill doesn't affect. Tank Hunter is nice, but this is not a vehicle heavy edition anyway, and it affects only Devastators and Dev Centurions. Meanwhile UM re-roll hits with all their meltas and missiles in their Tac squads and re-roll ones with their devastators. UM anti-armour firepower will easily equal that of IF, while being more accurate as anti-air thanks to the re-rolls and retaining extra shootyness with all other weapons.
While we consider that UM get six (?) special characters while others get maybe one, it is clear that UM are the optimal choice. I like that they gave us customisation and choices, but I hate false choices. If these rumours are true, you get a choice between playing Ultramarine or intentionally gimping yourself for flavour. I really hope that there's some error in the reporting and UM Tactical trait is not as good as it seems, because currently it seems that its existence makes other options pretty much false choices.
Hoping I can have a mix of chapter traits in an army. Not for any tactical advantage but because I have always wanted a squad of Celestial lions in my Black Templars army just for fluff reasons. It won't work as well if my Celestial Lions squad has to be a crusader squad with Templar traits but I am sure I can work something out!
The more rumors keep showing up, the more I want to start C:SM. I'm hyped about a possible Raven Guard / Salamanders army, this release is gonna be brutal.
IF rules are pretty weak. Bolter Drill is a joke, as it only lets you re-roll ones with your normal bolters, not with special ammo and probably not with stormbolters either. It makes you tactical squads a tiny bit shootier, but if you wanted to spam shooty tacticals, UM lets you re-roll all misses with them, including heavy and special weapons, whilst giving re-rolling ones to all those other units and weapons IF Bolter Drill doesn't affect. Tank Hunter is nice, but this is not a vehicle heavy edition anyway, and it affects only Devastators and Dev Centurions. Meanwhile UM re-roll hits with all their meltas and missiles in their Tac squads and re-roll ones with their devastators. UM anti-armour firepower will easily equal that of IF, while being more accurate as anti-air thanks to the re-rolls and retaining extra shootyness with all other weapons.
While we consider that UM get six (?) special characters while others get maybe one, it is clear that UM are the optimal choice. I like that they gave us customisation and choices, but I hate false choices. If these rumours are true, you get a choice between playing Ultramarine or intentionally gimping yourself for flavour. I really hope that there's some error in the reporting and UM Tactical trait is not as good as it seems, because currently it seems that its existence makes other options pretty much false choices.
I agree on the UM tactical doctrine. It simply sounds way too powerful when compared to all the other doctrines in the entire book. If this is true, you will see many marine players playing "count as" UM and just spamming tactical squads to the extreme. This will most likely result in my hybrid IG army vanishing in a pink mist turn one if you play without an Army Selection system or other house rules.
Arrathon wrote: There is a Hq in the Forgeworld book. Babad(or however you spell it) book 1. I do believe it is the Firehawk hq allows Assault and Vanguard as troops. Being as FW is 100% leagle in games now I've been looking into these Hq's. Well see what the new codex brings us. I am quiet excited so far.
IA9: The Badab War => Knight Captain Elam Courbray can do that.
But you get almost the same stuff by fielding Shadow Captain Korvydae from the Raven Guard (IA8)
Korvy is cheaper, but he needs scouts and actually turns ASM into Troops.
He also has a stronger attack, but he is unwieldy. On the other hand he has a better save and LD.
My plan is to take Korvy and make an ASM army with a Hq or Captain (rumours are not clear on that one) on a bike, so I can also take Bikers as Troop-choice.
I'll have speedy fast attacking troops all over the place ^^
CHAPTER ABILITIES
- Raven Guard have Stealth, may use jump packs in movement AND assault phase.
- Imperial Fists reroll '1s' to hit with standard bolters (Bolter Drill). Devatators/Centurions have Tank Hunters and +1 on the building damage table.
- Salamanders reroll failed to-wounds with flame weapons, and failed armor penetration rolls versus vehicles. Characters gain a free master crafted weapon. Vulkan is the only way to grant twin-linked meltas.
- Black Templars have Chapter Tactics options instead of Vows. The Emperor's Champion is an HQ choice for them only and chooses from either (reroll failed to-hits plus rending in challenges), or (gain Adamantium Will plus Crusader). No Librarians allowed.
- Ultramarines choose from one of the following donctrines:
a) Tactical - Re-roll ones, unless they're Tactical marines and they re-roll all shooting failed to hits.
b) Assault - Re-roll charge distance, unless they're Assault squads, Bikes, Attack bikes who gain Fleet.
c) Devstator - Re-roll on snap shots and overwatch, unless they're Devastators who gain Relentless (except when disembarking).
- White Scars bike equipped Captain makes 1 bike squad troops
- Successor Chapter use the Chapter Tactics of their Founding Chapter. Many Successor Chapters are listed by name.
I agree on the UM tactical doctrine. It simply sounds way too powerful when compared to all the other doctrines in the entire book. If this is true, you will see many marine players playing "count as" UM and just spamming tactical squads to the extreme.
Another thing is, I think rerolls should be SPECIAL. They should be rare, granted by special wargear (twin-linking, master crafted) or Preferred enemy.
Having an army-wide reroll is not only powerful, but really annoying to play and play against.
Tappers wrote: And lo and behold, the new tactical box looks... exactly the same!
Better get your eyeglass prescription checked..
Legs: Still in same squatting position, just different kneepads.
Chestplates: Slightly altered designs.
Helmets: Exactly the same, except one has got studs in it. OMG!
Weapons: Same bolters and missile launcher, but new graviton gun.
Whilst I admit that the sergeant's breastplate looks good, as well as his head, there are are barely any differences that warrants a price increase, new packaging and all that effort of moulding it all again. They could've changed the stupid legs squatting down (admittedly they did it on one), different bolter designs and cooler bits and bobs to add on.
(Is it possible for White Scars to run an all bike army) Yes but you have to take 2 captains so you can get two bike squads to be troops.
This is total crap. So WS players have their entire collection invalidated (those that did build bike armies). So now they will have to run CA to run a 'fluffy' army.
Having to add in an extra HQ doesn't invalidate your entire colection. It just requires a re-jig of your army list. Something that pretty much everyone has to do every single time any codex is revised.
Wrong. I have 7 units of Bikes. They could be fielded legally in the current book. You can get at most 5 in the new Codex, and requires me going and making another Captain to do so. Are you telling me that the money and effort I put on those 20 Bikes is no reason for me to be pissed off about this?
MadmanMSU wrote: If I remember correctly, the Black Templars allies chart is unchanged. They still follow the one in the book, for what its worth. Pretty sure that's what they said on 40k Radio.
EDIT: Well, it says their "allies matrix did not change". I don't know if that means they keep the old one or what. I'm assuming thats what it means.
The allies matrix goes by Codex, not by army list. So if the new Marine codex doesn't change it, and BT are now in the Marine codex, then BT now use the allies options for Codex Space Marines instead of Codex Black Templars.
Good hopefully they will fix some of the cock ups they made with the first incarnation of the Allies Matrix.
The new Chapter rules look interesting - although the UM always re-roll ones seems out of wack?
(Is it possible for White Scars to run an all bike army) Yes but you have to take 2 captains so you can get two bike squads to be troops.
This is total crap. So WS players have their entire collection invalidated (those that did build bike armies). So now they will have to run CA to run a 'fluffy' army.
Having to add in an extra HQ doesn't invalidate your entire colection. It just requires a re-jig of your army list. Something that pretty much everyone has to do every single time any codex is revised.
Wrong. I have 7 units of Bikes. They could be fielded legally in the current book. You can get at most 5 in the new Codex, and requires me going and making another Captain to do so. Are you telling me that the money and effort I put on those 20 Bikes is no reason for me to be pissed off about this?
Well, 18 bikes, and I'm sure by the time you are at 50 Bikes/Attack Bikes + Biker Captain, you are in double Force Org chart at that point anyways.
So, no, not really.
EDIT: Well, I did some of the math, and if you went exclusively bikes, no other support, I suppose that might screw you over.
I might point out that the rumors have already said that BT keep using their own allies chart. That's hardly far-fetched - all it needs is a single sentence in our section of the new codex to say as much.
So amid all the news on the new units and traits, am I correct in thinking that most units already in the current book are pretty well unchanged in the new one despite the odd points cost change?
(Is it possible for White Scars to run an all bike army) Yes but you have to take 2 captains so you can get two bike squads to be troops.
This is total crap. So WS players have their entire collection invalidated (those that did build bike armies). So now they will have to run CA to run a 'fluffy' army.
Having to add in an extra HQ doesn't invalidate your entire colection. It just requires a re-jig of your army list. Something that pretty much everyone has to do every single time any codex is revised.
Wrong. I have 7 units of Bikes. They could be fielded legally in the current book. You can get at most 5 in the new Codex, and requires me going and making another Captain to do so. Are you telling me that the money and effort I put on those 20 Bikes is no reason for me to be pissed off about this?
Well, 18 bikes, and I'm sure by the time you are at 50 Bikes/Attack Bikes + Biker Captain, you are in double Force Org chart at that point anyways.
So, no, not really.
EDIT: Well, I did some of the math, and if you went exclusively bikes, no other support, I suppose that might screw you over.
Never mind that we also had other Fast Attack units that we can throw in the garbage now because our old Troops suddenly eat up all the FA slots.
I simply refuse to buy the UM 're-roll' rumour. I have 6 full tactical squads in blue and gold, and there's NO WAY I'm that lucky.
Even if it is only the bolters...
I was actually expecting a leadership/morale rule like Sicarius and Calgar both grant. Or maybe a synergy effect when certain units work together.
This supposed rule is more like my just reward for putting up with all the anti-smurf hate I've dealt with over the last 18 years. Never going to happen. Relax guys.
Precisely. I will admit, I mucked up the simplest math in my last post (joys of the early morning) and it is 10 Bikes I should have said, not 20, however that's €113 worth of models on top of the two Storm Talons I neglected to mention.
I'll certainly get on with it, try and build an alternative list with the new book, and if that fails just use DA, but that doesn't change the fact it was a low move by GW and people shouldn't be telling us WS fans not to be very pissed off about it. This isn't the same as your favourite unit getting nerfed and you deciding of your own free will to change it after all.
So.. all the chapters more or less follow the codex astartes yet Ultramarines get 3 chapter tactics they can pick from that are all good while others get total garbage? Seems odd for Marines with fairly similar training..
The big problem with the WS thing is that it does less than a basic SM bike captain.
I mean, objectively, it looks like the rules got reversed, a bike captain should make one unit of bikes troops, while a WS captain should make ALL bikes troops, and allow an all bike army.
Honestly, it just looks like the IF vs. UM Tactical rule, in that it looks like they balanced the IF/WS one for the game and specifically reigned it in to make sure it wasn't OP (if the rumors of them not allowing special ammo rerolls is true), and then COMPLETELY IGNORED that for the UM/ standard Bike Captain rules.
Basically, the way the rumors are right now, it looks like ultrasmurfs get all the love.
In other news, water is freakin' wet.
And while they're at it, they should do the SM bike captain thing with Sternguard (along with Pedro making ALL Sternguard troops), Assault Marines/Vanguard (along with Shrike making ALL assault marines/vanguard troops), and Terminators. One unit of those guys as troops from a SM Captain decked out in the right gear hardly unbalances the codex.
Kirasu wrote: So.. all the chapters more or less follow the codex astartes yet Ultramarines get 3 chapter tactics they can pick from that are all good while others get total garbage? Seems odd for Marines with fairly similar training..
Only if you somehow are concerned with what colour your Marines are.
I have no problem with chopping and changing what chapter rules my Raven Guard will use, as I have fun experimenting with lists and will try all sorts from bike lists to footslogging lists.
As long as its clearly explained, neither will any reasonable opponent.
(Is it possible for White Scars to run an all bike army) Yes but you have to take 2 captains so you can get two bike squads to be troops.
This is total crap. So WS players have their entire collection invalidated (those that did build bike armies). So now they will have to run CA to run a 'fluffy' army.
Having to add in an extra HQ doesn't invalidate your entire colection. It just requires a re-jig of your army list. Something that pretty much everyone has to do every single time any codex is revised.
Wrong. I have 7 units of Bikes. They could be fielded legally in the current book. You can get at most 5 in the new Codex, and requires me going and making another Captain to do so. Are you telling me that the money and effort I put on those 20 Bikes is no reason for me to be pissed off about this?
Kirasu wrote: So.. all the chapters more or less follow the codex astartes yet Ultramarines get 3 chapter tactics they can pick from that are all good while others get total garbage? Seems odd for Marines with fairly similar training..
You can use any CT for any Chapter you damn well please. As long as you opponent knows what he's dealing with, there's no problem whatsoever.
DogofWar1 wrote: The big problem with the WS thing is that it does less than a basic SM bike captain.
I mean, objectively, it looks like the rules got reversed, a bike captain should make one unit of bikes troops, while a WS captain should make ALL bikes troops, and allow an all bike army.
Honestly, it just looks like the IF vs. UM Tactical rule, in that it looks like they balanced the IF/WS one for the game and specifically reigned it in to make sure it wasn't OP (if the rumors of them not allowing special ammo rerolls is true), and then COMPLETELY IGNORED that for the UM/ standard Bike Captain rules.
Basically, the way the rumors are right now, it looks like ultrasmurfs get all the love.
In other news, water is freakin' wet.
And while they're at it, they should do the SM bike captain thing with Sternguard (along with Pedro making ALL Sternguard troops), Assault Marines/Vanguard (along with Shrike making ALL assault marines/vanguard troops), and Terminators. One unit of those guys as troops from a SM Captain decked out in the right gear hardly unbalances the codex.
Wait, I thought the rules said you needed a SM-HQ on a bike and not a SM-Captain on a bike?
Kirasu wrote: So.. all the chapters more or less follow the codex astartes yet Ultramarines get 3 chapter tactics they can pick from that are all good while others get total garbage? Seems odd for Marines with fairly similar training..
You can use any CT for any Chapter you damn well please. As long as you opponent knows what he's dealing with, there's no problem whatsoever.
Technically we could use the bloody Eldar codex if we wanted to, the point is why bother putting out faction-specific rules to offer people choice if they're so poorly balanced that it's a false choice? Not only are the UM traits clearly superior individually, they essentially allow an UM player to list-tailor even in an environment where they'd be otherwise unable to do so. Further, while the UM rules are good from a gameplay perspective, they don't fit every Marine force thematically.
Wait, I thought the rules said you needed a SM-HQ on a bike and not a SM-Captain on a bike?
I'm not sure which one, and we can't be certain until the book drops, but either way it's still a big slap in the face of WS.
As for just playing armies with different coloring, that's fine, but it's really dumb that you give chapters special rules based on what they're supposed to be good at (WS bikes, IF bolter drill) and then give UM and standard SM better rules.
And there are some rules problems too, like what if I want to run a Sternwing with Pedro, am I stuck with the inferior chapter tactics. After all, if the rumors are true, we can't reroll special ammo with IF, but we can with UM, so I have to choose between an inferior chapter tactics and stern as scoring (not even as troops) or a superior chapter tactics, but being forced to take fewer scoring sternguard.
Wait, I thought the rules said you needed a SM-HQ on a bike and not a SM-Captain on a bike?
I'm not sure which one, and we can't be certain until the book drops, but either way it's still a big slap in the face of WS.
As for just playing armies with different coloring, that's fine, but it's really dumb that you give chapters special rules based on what they're supposed to be good at (WS bikes, IF bolter drill) and then give UM and standard SM better rules.
And there are some rules problems too, like what if I want to run a Sternwing with Pedro, am I stuck with the inferior chapter tactics. After all, if the rumors are true, we can't reroll special ammo with IF, but we can with UM, so I have to choose between an inferior chapter tactics and stern as scoring (not even as troops) or a superior chapter tactics, but being forced to take fewer scoring sternguard.
Why would you be? As long as it's marked on your army list what Traits you are using, it should be fine.
Unless they turn back the clock and restrict special characters per chapter again, which would be incredibly dumb. After all, even in the DA codex, it says that you can sub belial to represent a different successor chapter's First Captain.
If I want Captain Agemman to be represented by Pedro Kantor's rules, why shouldn't I be allowed to? Vice Versa, if I wanted the IF Chapter Master to be represented by Marneus Calgar, I should be allowed to do that as well.
I think they're fine as is. Interceptor+Armourbane? I think that would be very strong. Too strong in fact.
without interceptor they cannot fire at ground targets with full BS. So you take one in your TAC list and then your opponent has no flyers. Sucks to be you.
Nice compilation with some info I hadn't seen before. If this is accurate, White Scars might work out OK. Would require a little bit of tweaking from pure bike though. I'm not a fan of the one squad=troops if that comes to pass, not from a list building POV, but from a game play one. Which of your identical bike squads zooming across the table is the one that can score as a troop pick? What a headache...
WHITE SCARS CHAPTER TRAITS:
+1 to Jink saves
Autopass Dangerous Terrain tests
+1 to Hammer Of Wrath attacks
All White Scars units gain the Hit & Run USR, except for Terminators and Centurions.
KOR'SARRO KAHN:
Khan gives Bikes and Dedicated Transports in the White Scars detachment the Scout USR.
Moondraken inflicts D3 Hammer Of Wrath hits.
I think they're fine as is. Interceptor+Armourbane? I think that would be very strong. Too strong in fact.
without interceptor they cannot fire at ground targets with full BS. So you take one in your TAC list and then your opponent has no flyers. Sucks to be you.
Isn't it supposed to be an anti-air gun though? I thought one of them was a flak gun of sorts. Why would I want to shoot those at the ground?
tvih wrote: I might point out that the rumors have already said that BT keep using their own allies chart. That's hardly far-fetched - all it needs is a single sentence in our section of the new codex to say as much.
Shame :(
I was hoping to use my Sisters alongside my Templars - like in all the fluff that GW/BL out out and not counter to it.................
As long as they allow you to mix characters and tactics, then it'll be alright; I'd be able to run my Pedrowing with UM tactics, but it.s possible they might force you into IF ct if you take pedro or lysander, and that would be very problematic.
Pardon me, maybe I missed it, but don't you think the White Scars will have the bike option fixed in the supplement. I know it sucks to have to buy 2 codexes but your army should be fine.
Kirasu wrote: So.. all the chapters more or less follow the codex astartes yet Ultramarines get 3 chapter tactics they can pick from that are all good while others get total garbage? Seems odd for Marines with fairly similar training..
Technically? Nothing, but the complaint was that if you take these anti-air guns and they don't have interceptor, they can't fire at ground targets at full BS...
Nice compilation with some info I hadn't seen before. If this is accurate, White Scars might work out OK. Would require a little bit of tweaking from pure bike though. I'm not a fan of the one squad=troops if that comes to pass, not from a list building POV, but from a game play one. Which of your identical bike squads zooming across the table is the one that can score as a troop pick? What a headache...
WHITE SCARS CHAPTER TRAITS:
+1 to Jink saves
Autopass Dangerous Terrain tests
+1 to Hammer Of Wrath attacks
All White Scars units gain the Hit & Run USR, except for Terminators and Centurions.
KOR'SARRO KAHN:
Khan gives Bikes and Dedicated Transports in the White Scars detachment the Scout USR.
Moondraken inflicts D3 Hammer Of Wrath hits.
I think they're fine as is. Interceptor+Armourbane? I think that would be very strong. Too strong in fact.
without interceptor they cannot fire at ground targets with full BS. So you take one in your TAC list and then your opponent has no flyers. Sucks to be you.
Isn't it supposed to be an anti-air gun though? I thought one of them was a flak gun of sorts. Why would I want to shoot those at the ground?
yes it is an anti air gun, and it looks like it might actually be good at it's job depending on the price. but people arent going to take too many of them if they are basically boned if the enemy doesnt have skimmers or flyers.
And otherwise you have the perfect argument to why Grav-weapons won't have a S-value!
Just still not sure if I'm going to be running 
. I hope Vulkan still Master Crafts Thunder Hammers but that is probably a little pie in the sky. 
