I would not say that the Ultra-Smurfs are “Superior to the other with the Chapter Tactics, but might be a play style thing.
A] Tactical: To take full advantage of this one you will have to take Lots of Tactical Squads, eating into t the points that are available.
B] Assault: This is great if you are planning on taking a Bikes or Assault Squads, but to take full advantage of this you are going to have to spend a lot of points on a lot fewer models.
D]Devastator: This is the best one in my opinion, but 3 squads of Devastators means there is a lot you are not going to be taking. Though I do love the though of Relentless Plasma Cannons.

Now as a Gunline Player who uses Tactical Squads and Devastators as my core I love A & C, but two is useless to me. When I am in the mood for Assaulting I will just play a Shrike List, pull out my Blood Angles, Grey Knights or Space Wolves.

Disclaimer: I do tend to play more Fluffy Armies.

 d-usa wrote:

So WS don't suck?

Compared to other chapters, no.
Compared to Ultramarines, hell yes.

Scout moves, auto pass difficult terrain tests, improved jinks saves are all less beneficial than "reroll how many bolters in a WS list"?

Considering that I've been able to hose WS players with my TFC by making them take lots of difficult terrain tests I think they are pretty good traits.

Crazyterran wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I think im drooling. I want that now. Im going to have to convert one but im making it. Even is i have ot use a paint dropper as the cannon.

Seeing as the tank's are currently shooting at ground targets at BS1, they are meh.

They look amazing, though.

They still hit skimmers on regular BS, though. And with Serpent spam and tau tank spam...

 Anpu42 wrote:

A] Tactical: To take full advantage of this one you will have to take Lots of Tactical Squads, eating into t the points that are available.

You will have some tactical squads anyway, and this will make them way more effective. And it makes you other squads more effective too, Sternguard, Terminators (all those units IF Bolter Drill doesn't work on as they thought it would be too good!), devastators and PLASMA ARMED COMMAND SQUADS! This pretty much negates the weakness of plasma weapons.

I really, really hope that his trait has been reported wrong, all other chapters seem decently balanced to each other, but this is just way too good, making the others false choices. Not to mention that re-rolling for entire army slows down the game a lot.

 Anpu42 wrote:
I would not say that the Ultra-Smurfs are “Superior to the other with the Chapter Tactics, but might be a play style thing.
A] Tactical: To take full advantage of this one you will have to take Lots of Tactical Squads, eating into t the points that are available.
B] Assault: This is great if you are planning on taking a Bikes or Assault Squads, but to take full advantage of this you are going to have to spend a lot of points on a lot fewer models.
D]Devastator: This is the best one in my opinion, but 3 squads of Devastators means there is a lot you are not going to be taking. Though I do love the though of Relentless Plasma Cannons.

Now as a Gunline Player who uses Tactical Squads and Devastators as my core I love A & C, but two is useless to me. When I am in the mood for Assaulting I will just play a Shrike List, pull out my Blood Angles, Grey Knights or Space Wolves.

Disclaimer: I do tend to play more Fluffy Armies.

Rerolling half my misses with non-tactical squads (and all of them with Tactical Squads) is still a hell of a lot better than rerolling snap shots/overwatches with non-devastators. And, since the Relentless doesn't work when you come out of a Drop Pod, there's pretty much no reason your Devastators really need to move, since who the hell gave them Multi-Meltas anyways?

I suppose it'd be fun to have a Lascannon bunker in a Rhino.

 d-usa wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278011-new-codex-space-marines-rumor/page-68#entry3420390

Nice compilation with some info I hadn't seen before. If this is accurate, White Scars might work out OK. Would require a little bit of tweaking from pure bike though. I'm not a fan of the one squad=troops if that comes to pass, not from a list building POV, but from a game play one. Which of your identical bike squads zooming across the table is the one that can score as a troop pick? What a headache...

WHITE SCARS CHAPTER TRAITS:
+1 to Jink saves
Autopass Dangerous Terrain tests
+1 to Hammer Of Wrath attacks
All White Scars units gain the Hit & Run USR, except for Terminators and Centurions.
KOR'SARRO KAHN:
Khan gives Bikes and Dedicated Transports in the White Scars detachment the Scout USR.
Moondraken inflicts D3 Hammer Of Wrath hits.

So WS don't suck?

Damn, White Scars essentially get H&R, Skilled Rider, and double Hammer of Wrath attacks? That's pretty damn good. Not to mention, with Khan, they get to be cheaper Ravenwing.

Hell, 4+ Jink Saves on Speeders / LSS is pretty awesome too.

So is the Crusader entry a separate entry from a tactical squad? Weird.

 d-usa wrote:
You mean you have to have a balanced list and not every toy will be effective against every target?

The shame of it all...

I guess the question is if it will be priced appropriately for a unit that has the potential to be firing at BS1 all game. If you need to spend 500 points to get reliable anti-flier in your list, but it turns out that your reliable anti-flier is mostly useless against armies with no fliers it's a pretty crappy idea. If it only costs 250, sure, I'll take it; that's not too many points to tie up.

It's a bit like the meltaguns I've tossed on my Ravenwing bikes. Sure, it's not very useful against many lists (I mean, yeah, it's going to kill that one Ork D-E-D dead, but so would the twin-linked bolter that I'd probably be shooting instead) but I'm not sinking a lot of points into it. If those meltaguns cost 50 points each, they'd still be sitting in my bits box.

I think it was mentioned earlier in the thread that one of the varieties was 70pts. (I think it was the one shot version, not sure which.)

Anyone else notice that the Salamanders having re-rolls on to wound and armour penetration rolls applies to, per the rulebook, melta weapons as well? Yes, melta weapons count as flame-based weapons per the rulebook, page 56!

 Lansirill wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
You mean you have to have a balanced list and not every toy will be effective against every target?

The shame of it all...

I guess the question is if it will be priced appropriately for a unit that has the potential to be firing at BS1 all game. If you need to spend 500 points to get reliable anti-flier in your list, but it turns out that your reliable anti-flier is mostly useless against armies with no fliers it's a pretty crappy idea. If it only costs 250, sure, I'll take it; that's not too many points to tie up.

It's a bit like the meltaguns I've tossed on my Ravenwing bikes. Sure, it's not very useful against many lists (I mean, yeah, it's going to kill that one Ork D-E-D dead, but so would the twin-linked bolter that I'd probably be shooting instead) but I'm not sinking a lot of points into it. If those meltaguns cost 50 points each, they'd still be sitting in my bits box.

Well, if it was 500 points, it'd be easier and better to just take the Storm Raven, which is probably GW's ploy to get us to buy that flying toaster...

 d-usa wrote:
You mean you have to have a balanced list and not every toy will be effective against every target?

The shame of it all...

I think it's fair and nice.

Some of the other rumored rules sound OP but I am willing to wait for the codex.

 Nevelon wrote:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278011-new-codex-space-marines-rumor/page-68#entry3420390

Wait what? Vanguard Veterans cannot charge after Deep Striking?

 Crimson wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

A] Tactical: To take full advantage of this one you will have to take Lots of Tactical Squads, eating into t the points that are available.

You will have some tactical squads anyway, and this will make them way more effective. And it makes you other squads more effective too, Sternguard, Terminators (all those units IF Bolter Drill doesn't work on as they thought it would be too good!), devastators and PLASMA ARMED COMMAND SQUADS! This pretty much negates the weakness of plasma weapons.

I really, really hope that his trait has been reported wrong, all other chapters seem decently balanced to each other, but this is just way too good, making the others false choices. Not to mention that re-rolling for entire army slows down the game a lot.

1st, you pretty much described my normal Marine List.
True, but will every list be this way?
Personally I don’t think so.
As far as the Weakness of the Plasma, this is something I have always lived with and find this will be nice, but not the Holy Grail. I have negated the 4x Plasma Gun Command Squad with a Apothecary so the Really Nice thing about this will just be more chances to hit.

Crazyterran wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
I said Stuff

Rerolling half my misses with non-tactical squads (and all of them with Tactical Squads) is still a hell of a lot better than rerolling snap shots/overwatches with non-devastators. And, since the Relentless doesn't work when you come out of a Drop Pod, there's pretty much no reason your Devastators really need to move, since who the hell gave them Multi-Meltas anyways?
I suppose it'd be fun to have a Lascannon bunker in a Rhino.

There is one of marine player who runs a 10 man, 4x MM Devastator Squad, with a Tech Marine and some ruins near the Middle of the table makes them a primary target, but it takes some real resources to dislodge them.

I was thinking 2x Plasma Cannons out of a Rhino!

I just think all these [All the Chapter Tactics] will be Game Changers not Game Breakers.

Caederes wrote:
Anyone else notice that the Salamanders having re-rolls on to wound and armour penetration rolls applies to, per the rulebook, melta weapons as well? Yes, melta weapons count as flame-based weapons per the rulebook, page 56!

Care to elaborate?

Kangodo wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278011-new-codex-space-marines-rumor/page-68#entry3420390

Wait what? Vanguard Veterans cannot charge after Deep Striking?

but cost 8 points less with jump packs

Vanguard Vets with Shrike to build an improvised Shrike Wing seems like a real possibility for me now...

Well re-rolling armor pen with a flamer is going to be useless unless you can get behind the vehicle, assuming its AV 10. So unless they expect you to take a lot more heavy flamers, or count melta as flame, re-rolling armor pen is not going to come up that often. Now re-rolling to wound is awesome, especially if you can get it on an incinerator.

 Anpu42 wrote:


I just think all these [All the Chapter Tactics] will be Game Changers not Game Breakers.

Most of them are. Rerolls on all shooting in the army is game breaking though.

This what im tracking from BOLS

UNIT CHANGES
-Chaplains are HQ , W:2, A:2 and grant Zealot.
-Master of the Forge gains It Will Not Die
-Scouts drop 2 points, can take LS Storm as a dedicated transport.
-Tacticals drop 2 points.
-Devastators drop 2 points.
-Sternguard drop 3 points.
-Vanguard drop 1 point, jumppack option drops 7 points.
-Honour guard are cheaper.
-SM Bikes drop 4 points.
-Hunter/Stalker re both armed with s:7 weapons (Stalker heavy4, Hunter heavy1). The Hunter's weapon is AP:2 Armorbane.
-Command Squads may take bikes, and a bike-equipped Commander makes a SM Biker unit troops.
-Crusader Squads may take 2 power weapons per squad. Costed and equipped as Tacticals as standard. May swap out for BP/CCW for free. Max size 10 Initiates and 10 Neophytes.
-Centurions WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W2 I4 Ld8/9 Sv2, Squad size 3-6, each costed as a Predator.


CHAPTER ABILITIES
- Raven Guard have Stealth, may use jump packs in movement AND assault phase.
- Imperial Fists reroll '1s' to hit with standard bolters (Bolter Drill). Devatators/Centurions have Tank Hunters and +1 on the building damage table.
- Salamanders reroll failed to-wounds with flame weapons, and failed armor penetration rolls versus vehicles. Characters gain a free master crafted weapon. Vulkan is the only way to grant twin-linked meltas.
- Black Templars have Chapter Tactics options instead of Vows. The Emperor's Champion is an HQ choice for them only and chooses from either (reroll failed to-hits plus rending in challenges), or (gain Adamantium Will plus Crusader). No Librarians allowed.
- Ultramarines choose from one of the following donctrines:
a) Tactical - Re-roll ones, unless they're Tactical marines and they re-roll all shooting failed to hits.
b) Assault - Re-roll charge distance, unless they're Assault squads, Bikes, Attack bikes who gain Fleet.
c) Devstator - Re-roll on snap shots and overwatch, unless they're Devastators who gain Relentless (except when disembarking).
- White Scars bike equipped Captain makes 1 bike squad troops
- Successor Chapter use the Chapter Tactics of their Founding Chapter. Many Successor Chapters are listed by name.

NEW ITEMS
6 new Chapter Relics
Grav Weapons have Concussive

CHARACTERS
-Marneus Calgar may take 3 Warlord Traits and is pricier.
-Korsarro Khan grants Scout to mounted troops and bikes. He inflicts D3 Hammer of Wrath hits.
-Kayvan Shrike may Infiltrate with Jumppack units.
-Emperor's Champion equipped with AP:2 sword, armor is 2+/4+i
-High-Marshal Helbrecht grants Hatred and Fleet to Black Templars in the Assault phase once per game.
-Lysander returns with Eternal Warrior, Units in 12" re-roll on morale and pinning test.
-Grimaldus Grants Zealot to his unit.
-Several Named Characters retain USRs that affect their entire army.

Imperial Deceit wrote:
Well it is also possible that these CT are just a taste of what is to come. There maybe way more for each CT then has been leaked.

For the sake of IF and IH, I bloody well hope so. Having read that roundup, it turns out that the most thematic HQ for IH, the MotF, comes with our supposedly special Chapter Tactic by default for every flavour of Marines, and in exchange he gets....+1 to repair rolls. Seriously I don't get this; they managed to look at BT and go "OK, so we give them their special thing(Crusaders), and we say 'no libbies', sorted", yet they were apparently incapable of looking at IH and saying "OK, so we give them their special thing(Rites of Battle/Zealot on MotF/Techmarines), and we say 'no chappies', sorted".

IF arguably have it even worse than us, since at least there might be some IWND Dreadnaught/Techmarine shenanigans to try, while they essentially get stuck with weaksauce versions of Ultramarines traits. Bolter Drill is a worse version of Tactical Doctrine, and Relentless Devs and Centurion devs is infinitely more useful than Tank Hunter, especially given the paucity of armour in a lot of 6th Edition regional metas.

If the WS stuff is true I'm just in straight up love with them. Granted I'm also in love with the sallies ones and I've always loved sternguard so I guess we're just going to have to see how this all turns out. Seems like tons of options and a solid book based on the rumours. But so did Cruddaces Nids before we saw point values.

 Exergy wrote:
but cost 9 points less with jump packs

But the ability to charge after DS'ing was the only reason why I would want to buy them

Caederes wrote:
Anyone else notice that the Salamanders having re-rolls on to wound and armour penetration rolls applies to, per the rulebook, melta weapons as well? Yes, melta weapons count as flame-based weapons per the rulebook, page 56!

Would love to believe you.....but my copy doesnt have Melta Guns in the Flamer section on page 56. It starts with Hand Flamer and goes down through Flamespurts and Incinerator and finished as the Flamestorm Cannon with nary a mention of Melta.

Edit: In fact the Meltas seems to be in the next page, under "Melta Weapons"

If the Vanguard vets lose Heroic intervention it kind of defeats their purpose. Assault marines will always be cheaper.

 Vain wrote:
Would love to believe you.....but my copy doesnt have Melta Guns in the Flamer section on page 56. It starts with Hand Flamer and goes down through Flamespurts and Incinerator and finished as the Flamestorm Cannon with nary a mention of Melta.

The Necron-codex has an ability called "Lord of Flame" and it says it works against "all flamer weapons (insert examples, 'even this and this' and all weapons using flame or fire in effect or ruling) and weapons with the melta type.."
So I don't think melta counts as a 'flamer weapon'.

Imperial Deceit wrote:
If the Vanguard vets lose Heroic intervention it kind of defeats their purpose. Assault marines will always be cheaper.

Always look on the bright side of things: Now I just saved myself 36 euro!

Imperial Deceit wrote:
If the Vanguard vets lose Heroic intervention it kind of defeats their purpose. Assault marines will always be cheaper.

If the price changes are true, they won't be that much cheaper, and don't Vanguard get 2 base attacks instead of 1, as well as a lot more weapons options? Seems like that might be worth the extra 4-5 points or whatever.

 Exergy wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:


I just think all these [All the Chapter Tactics] will be Game Changers not Game Breakers.

Most of them are. Rerolls on all shooting in the army is game breaking though.

Yes you will get some masively Accrate shooting before you die quickly to all of the AP3 Ignore Cover Weapons.

anyone know if Chapter tactics will be something you have to put down on your list when you make it, or something that you can select at the table when you see who your facing?

If WS require 2 captains on bikes to get 2 troop choices, of bikers, it means they can't legally take a libby or chappie on bike, correct? there goes my idea of kit bashing them...

Buuuut, it means WS can take 2 honour guards....

 bigboss1o1 wrote:

CHARACTERS
-Marneus Calgar may take 3 Warlord Traits and is pricier.
-Korsarro Khan grants Scout to mounted troops and bikes. He inflicts D3 Hammer of Wrath hits.
-Kayvan Shrike may Infiltrate with Jumppack units.
-Emperor's Champion equipped with AP:2 sword, armor is 2+/4+i
-High-Marshal Helbrecht grants Hatred and Fleet to Black Templars in the Assault phase once per game.
-Lysander returns with Eternal Warrior, Units in 12" re-roll on morale and pinning test.
-Grimaldus Grants Zealot to his unit.
-Several Named Characters retain USRs that affect their entire army.

Wait, what? Is this not the complete list, or did they drop kantor?
EDIT: Ignore me, this pretty obviously isn't all of it, unless most of the ultramarine characters gone too

 Yodhrin wrote:

Imperial Deceit wrote:
Well it is also possible that these CT are just a taste of what is to come. There maybe way more for each CT then has been leaked.

For the sake of IF and IH, I bloody well hope so. Having read that roundup, it turns out that the most thematic HQ for IH, the MotF, comes with our supposedly special Chapter Tactic by default for every flavour of Marines, and in exchange he gets....+1 to repair rolls. Seriously I don't get this; they managed to look at BT and go "OK, so we give them their special thing(Crusaders), and we say 'no libbies', sorted", yet they were apparently incapable of looking at IH and saying "OK, so we give them their special thing(Rites of Battle/Zealot on MotF/Techmarines), and we say 'no chappies', sorted".

IF arguably have it even worse than us, since at least there might be some IWND Dreadnaught/Techmarine shenanigans to try, while they essentially get stuck with weaksauce versions of Ultramarines traits. Bolter Drill is a worse version of Tactical Doctrine, and Relentless Devs and Centurion devs is infinitely more useful than Tank Hunter, especially given the paucity of armour in a lot of 6th Edition regional metas.

No chaplains? IH has the Iron Fathers, which are essentially chaplains (chaplain tech marines, still though..)

Man though, Space marines get all this and yet CSM is derided for wanting rules for their legions.

 RunningWithScissors49 wrote:
Wait, what? Is this not the complete list, or did they drop kantor?

-Several Named Characters retain USRs that affect their entire army.

Plus, would be a sad day when all the non Grey/Red/Green/Silver Marines can be done with just 7 SCs.

Squeaky wheel gets the grease........

 Anpu42 wrote:

Yes you will get some masively Accrate shooting before you die quickly to all of the AP3 Ignore Cover Weapons.

Yes, which is greatly preferable over dying same way before accomplishing anything because your heavy and special weapons missed!

That may also be an error, I don't know why it would only give you 1:1 for bikers as troops. It may not make any into troops but make all of your bikes scoring. Or maybe scout bikers are troops now.

Dundas wrote:

Imperial Deceit wrote:
If the Vanguard vets lose Heroic intervention it kind of defeats their purpose. Assault marines will always be cheaper.

If the price changes are true, they won't be that much cheaper, and don't Vanguard get 2 base attacks instead of 1, as well as a lot more weapons options? Seems like that might be worth the extra 4-5 points or whatever.

Unless Assault Marines dropped in points along with everything else, the difference in 5 man squads is 35 points, or 55 points for a 10 man squad.

So taking what we know from the new rumors and the old codex, and considering that the Sgt gets a free power sword (a 15 point cost for regular Assault Marines) what your +4 points per marine get you is:
-4 more attacks (A:2 for the base guys) or 9 more attacks for a squad of 10.
-can join multiple units without penalty
-auto-pass Glorious Intervention
-everybody can take Melta-Bombs
-everybody has access to power weapons, storm shields, etc..

 Crimson wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Yes you will get some masively Accrate shooting before you die quickly to all of the AP3 Ignore Cover Weapons.

Yes, which is greatly preferable over dying same way before accomplishing anything because your heavy and special weapons missed!

To me the Re-Roll are just as good as the Dakka Baner or a Wolf Priest Oath of War, witch for me has not been that Overwhelminng.

You only get heroc intervention if you buy vanguards jump packs (which they don't have), also all those upgrades cost points. just because you can take a power weapon on everything doesn't mean you should. DC can do the samething but it gets pricy fast.

I might be reading things wrong but is here any chance that the WScaptain on bikes provides an ADDITIONAL 1 biker unit as troops (so 2 bike squads as troops per WS captain on bikes?) it seems odd that its mentioned once for general captains and again for WS captains.

 bigboss1o1 wrote:
This what im tracking from BOLS

UNIT CHANGES
-Chaplains are HQ , W:2, A:2 and grant Zealot.
-Master of the Forge gains It Will Not Die
-Scouts drop 2 points, can take LS Storm as a dedicated transport.
-Tacticals drop 2 points.
-Devastators drop 2 points.
-Sternguard drop 3 points.
-Vanguard drop 1 point, jumppack option drops 7 points.
-Honour guard are cheaper.
-SM Bikes drop 4 points.
-Hunter/Stalker re both armed with s:7 weapons (Stalker heavy4, Hunter heavy1). The Hunter's weapon is AP:2 Armorbane.
-Command Squads may take bikes, and a bike-equipped Commander makes a SM Biker unit troops.
-Crusader Squads may take 2 power weapons per squad. Costed and equipped as Tacticals as standard. May swap out for BP/CCW for free. Max size 10 Initiates and 10 Neophytes.
-Centurions WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W2 I4 Ld8/9 Sv2, Squad size 3-6, each costed as a Predator.


CHAPTER ABILITIES
- Raven Guard have Stealth, may use jump packs in movement AND assault phase.
- Imperial Fists reroll '1s' to hit with standard bolters (Bolter Drill). Devatators/Centurions have Tank Hunters and +1 on the building damage table.
- Salamanders reroll failed to-wounds with flame weapons, and failed armor penetration rolls versus vehicles. Characters gain a free master crafted weapon. Vulkan is the only way to grant twin-linked meltas.
- Black Templars have Chapter Tactics options instead of Vows. The Emperor's Champion is an HQ choice for them only and chooses from either (reroll failed to-hits plus rending in challenges), or (gain Adamantium Will plus Crusader). No Librarians allowed.
- Ultramarines choose from one of the following donctrines:
a) Tactical - Re-roll ones, unless they're Tactical marines and they re-roll all shooting failed to hits.
b) Assault - Re-roll charge distance, unless they're Assault squads, Bikes, Attack bikes who gain Fleet.
c) Devstator - Re-roll on snap shots and overwatch, unless they're Devastators who gain Relentless (except when disembarking).
- White Scars bike equipped Captain makes 1 bike squad troops
- Successor Chapter use the Chapter Tactics of their Founding Chapter. Many Successor Chapters are listed by name.

NEW ITEMS
6 new Chapter Relics
Grav Weapons have Concussive

CHARACTERS
-Marneus Calgar may take 3 Warlord Traits and is pricier.
-Korsarro Khan grants Scout to mounted troops and bikes. He inflicts D3 Hammer of Wrath hits.
-Kayvan Shrike may Infiltrate with Jumppack units.
-Emperor's Champion equipped with AP:2 sword, armor is 2+/4+i
-High-Marshal Helbrecht grants Hatred and Fleet to Black Templars in the Assault phase once per game.
-Lysander returns with Eternal Warrior, Units in 12" re-roll on morale and pinning test.
-Grimaldus Grants Zealot to his unit.
-Several Named Characters retain USRs that affect their entire army.

If even half of this list is true I will be very happy with the new Codex.

Imperial Deceit wrote:
You only get heroc intervention if you buy vanguards jump packs (which they don't have), also all those upgrades cost points. just because you can take a power weapon on everything doesn't mean you should. DC can do the samething but it gets pricy fast.

A feind of mine has been using a 5 Man Bllood Angels Vanguard with Jump Packs, Power Swords and Storm Shields and has proven to be both very Resilant and Brutal. They managed to take out a full 15 man Blood Claw Pack + Wolf Guard Pack Leader and Wolf Priest in Two Assualt Phases, now this was in 5th, but with a good Surgical Assassination Unit. If they become Cheeper, I think I will have to worry about them more.

So WS apparently get a lot of goodies after all, but it doesn't change the fact that large portions of existing armies are being rendered unplayable (I used to run 2 squadrons of Speeders and a squadron of Attack Bikes... I can chuck them all now to make room in FA for my bikes that used to be Troops... and I can spend the points (and cash) to buy a second useless Captain and some Tacticals so I actually have some scoring bodies.

I am now just loving Shrike + 5 Vanguard Jump Marines.

Stealth, Infiltration with Shrike, use their Jump Pack to move and assault after already infiltrating, with Glorious Intervention.

Shrike Wing for the Win!

 Anpu42 wrote:

Imperial Deceit wrote:
You only get heroc intervention if you buy vanguards jump packs (which they don't have), also all those upgrades cost points. just because you can take a power weapon on everything doesn't mean you should. DC can do the samething but it gets pricy fast.

A feind of mine has been using a 5 Man Bllood Angels Vanguard with Jump Packs, Power Swords and Storm Shields and has proven to be both very Resilant and Brutal. They managed to take out a full 15 man Blood Claw Pack + Wolf Guard Pack Leader and Wolf Priest in Two Assualt Phases, now this was in 5th, but with a good Surgical Assassination Unit. If they become Cheeper, I think I will have to worry about them more.

The issue was that they maybe losing Heroic Intervetion in the new codex, which would ruin their surgical strike abilities.

But they gain the ability to assault multiple units without penalty and gain Glorious Intervention, all with a decent point drop.

Imperial Deceit wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Imperial Deceit wrote:
You only get heroc intervention if you buy vanguards jump packs (which they don't have), also all those upgrades cost points. just because you can take a power weapon on everything doesn't mean you should. DC can do the samething but it gets pricy fast.

A feind of mine has been using a 5 Man Bllood Angels Vanguard with Jump Packs, Power Swords and Storm Shields and has proven to be both very Resilant and Brutal. They managed to take out a full 15 man Blood Claw Pack + Wolf Guard Pack Leader and Wolf Priest in Two Assualt Phases, now this was in 5th, but with a good Surgical Assassination Unit. If they become Cheeper, I think I will have to worry about them more.

The issue was that they maybe losing Heroic Intervetion in the new codex, which would ruin their surgical strike abilities.

I am hoping not, but even if they do, they can still inflict real damage once they get close.
Myself I would either use them as a "Flanking Unit" to somthing else or keep them in the backfield to deal with Deep Stikers.
I will make mine a Body Guard for Shrike, all with Paired Lighting Claws [I like Fluffy] or Lighting Claw/Power Fist or mayby Lighting Claw/Thunder Hammer just for the 20% Cool Factor

Imperial Deceit wrote:
You only get heroc intervention if you buy vanguards jump packs (which they don't have), also all those upgrades cost points. just because you can take a power weapon on everything doesn't mean you should. DC can do the samething but it gets pricy fast.

It's too expensive to take a power weapon on all of them, but being able to take a power fist or two that can't be challenged out can be handy.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Imperial Deceit wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Imperial Deceit wrote:
You only get heroc intervention if you buy vanguards jump packs (which they don't have), also all those upgrades cost points. just because you can take a power weapon on everything doesn't mean you should. DC can do the samething but it gets pricy fast.

A feind of mine has been using a 5 Man Bllood Angels Vanguard with Jump Packs, Power Swords and Storm Shields and has proven to be both very Resilant and Brutal. They managed to take out a full 15 man Blood Claw Pack + Wolf Guard Pack Leader and Wolf Priest in Two Assualt Phases, now this was in 5th, but with a good Surgical Assassination Unit. If they become Cheeper, I think I will have to worry about them more.

The issue was that they maybe losing Heroic Intervetion in the new codex, which would ruin their surgical strike abilities.

I am hoping not, but even if they do, they can still inflict real damage once they get close.
Myself I would either use them as a "Flanking Unit" to somthing else or keep them in the backfield to deal with Deep Stikers.
I will make mine a Body Guard for Shrike, all with Paired Lighting Claws [I like Fluffy] or Lighting Claw/Power Fist or mayby Lighting Claw/Thunder Hammer just for the 20% Cool Factor

It's almost like we are the target audience for the back of the box!

Any rumors regarding the ability to mix chapter tactics? I'm guessing not, but it could be fun.

I have thirty dusty Templar assault Marines with storm shields. Not that I'll ever field that many again, but...the lulz...

Anyone know if LotD are still an elites slot? Any chance of being able to field them as an army?

What's this about FW being "100% legal" as I saw someone put it a page or two back? Was I under a rock and missed this announcement?

I imagine this is perhaps non-super heavies, non-Titan, non-experimentals? If true at all? I like the idea (I have me some heap of FW...) - but always assumed such units were strictly permission based...? Anyone care to clarify?

 VoidAngel wrote:
I have thirty dusty Templar assault Marines with storm shields. Not that I'll ever field that many again, but...the lulz...

Anyone know if LotD are still an elites slot? Any chance of being able to field them as an army?

What's this about FW being "100% legal" as I saw someone put it a page or two back? Was I under a rock and missed this announcement?

I imagine this is perhaps non-super heavies, non-Titan, non-experimentals? If true at all? I like the idea (I have me some heap of FW...) - but always assumed such units were strictly permission based...? Anyone care to clarify?

Let's not open that Pandoras Box in this thread too.

Peregrine incoming in...5...4...3...2...

 d-usa wrote:
But they gain the ability to assault multiple units without penalty and gain Glorious Intervention, all with a decent point drop.

I'm sure I've just missed something but what do you mean by that?

What mitigates a disordered charge for them? Are they all characters now so they can interject in challenges?

 d-usa wrote:
But they gain the ability to assault multiple units without penalty and gain Glorious Intervention, all with a decent point drop.

Well, I don't care.
Be honest with me, have you ever used either one of those abilities?
Heroic Intervention is the iconic ability of the Vanguard Veterans, now they took it away.
I am still hoping that rumour is false.

 VoidAngel wrote:
What's this about FW being "100% legal" as I saw someone put it a page or two back? Was I under a rock and missed this announcement?

FW has been 100% legal for quite some time now.
Some people just refuse to accept it and don't want to play it, which in my opinion is the same as house-ruling that a specific codex or unit is banned.

Like someone said recently in another thread:

"In the event they are trying to shove vet gamers over to FW entirely, they need to put out an absolute, unassailable, unquestionable, unequivocal statement that Forgeworld units are legitimate in normal play, because apparently slapping big "APPROVED FOR 40K, NO, REALLY, THERE'S A BIG STAMP AND EVERYTHING" into the rules didn't work."

" Peregrine incoming in...5...4...3...2... "
INB4!

 Eldarain wrote:
I'm sure I've just missed something but what do you mean by that?

What mitigates a disordered charge for them? And are they all characters to be able to interject during challenges?

If the rumors are correct it is the new function of Heroic Intervention

Heroic Intervention: Negates the penalty for Disordered Charge and the Sergeant auto-passes Initiative checks for Glorious Intervention.
They CANNOT charge after Deep Striking anymore.
1 point cheaper per Marine.
Jump Pack upgrade is 7 points cheaper per Marine

via: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278011-new-codex-space-marines-rumor/page-68#entry3420390


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kangodo wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
But they gain the ability to assault multiple units without penalty and gain Glorious Intervention, all with a decent point drop.

Well, I don't care.
Be honest with me, have you ever used either one of those abilities?
Heroic Intervention is the iconic ability of the Vanguard Veterans, now they took it away.
I am still hoping that rumour is false.

How many people actually used the old Heroic Intervention?

I've never used the ability to assault multiple units because I don't think I have had a unit capable of doing that.

For the cost of making that iteration of Vanguard survivable i would rather just take more assault marines. Even vets only have 1 wound and 3+ save, and a five man squad will get shot to pieces before they get to use those fancy weapons.

 d-usa wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
But they gain the ability to assault multiple units without penalty and gain Glorious Intervention, all with a decent point drop.

Well, I don't care.
Be honest with me, have you ever used either one of those abilities?
Heroic Intervention is the iconic ability of the Vanguard Veterans, now they took it away.
I am still hoping that rumour is false.

How many people actually used the old Heroic Intervention?

I've never used the ability to assault multiple units because I don't think I have had a unit capable of doing that.

People use it constantly...especially blood angels...who just keep getting kicked with every turn. Makes me wonder if Ymgarls are going to change...because their ability to assault is the only thing that makes them worthwhile in comparison to normal stealers.

 Nevelon wrote:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278011-new-codex-space-marines-rumor/page-68#entry3420390

Nice compilation with some info I hadn't seen before. If this is accurate, White Scars might work out OK. Would require a little bit of tweaking from pure bike though. I'm not a fan of the one squad=troops if that comes to pass, not from a list building POV, but from a game play one. Which of your identical bike squads zooming across the table is the one that can score as a troop pick? What a headache...

WHITE SCARS CHAPTER TRAITS:
+1 to Jink saves
Autopass Dangerous Terrain tests
+1 to Hammer Of Wrath attacks
All White Scars units gain the Hit & Run USR, except for Terminators and Centurions.
KOR'SARRO KAHN:
Khan gives Bikes and Dedicated Transports in the White Scars detachment the Scout USR.
Moondraken inflicts D3 Hammer Of Wrath hits.

Thanks for this. I will admit now, with those rules it makes sense that they can't get all Bikes as it might be a bit broken otherwise. Well my faith is slightly restored. Hopefully Captains can get some really worthwhile gear now so they don't feel like a 300pts tax to get half the flavour of my old army.

 d-usa wrote:
How many people actually used the old Heroic Intervention?

X people, where X is the amount of people who actually fielded Vanguard Veterans

Imperial Deceit wrote:
For the cost of making that iteration of Vanguard survivable i would rather just take more assault marines. Even vets only have 1 wound and 3+ save, and a five man squad will get shot to pieces before they get to use those fancy weapons.

Depends on the circumstance. I will admit that Raven Guard players are probably getting more of a benefit from the unit that other chapters.

Losing Heroic Intervention is indeed a big bummer. I fielded Vanguard vets for the first time (wanted to do that for forever, but haven't gotten much games in since assembling them) last Thursday... and with HI landed next a 6-man devastator squad with 4x ML and wiped it out

It's also very much a bummer that Templars can't get Redeemers as dedicated. The damn thing was developed from the Crusader, after all.

I can't think of a good reason to take away heroic intervetion though.

Imperial Deceit wrote:
I can't think of a good reason to take away heroic intervetion though.

Well, we can't have those people running around with CC-squads in a edition that is clearly intended for ranged, right?

Kangodo wrote:

Well, we can't have those people running around with CC-squads in a edition that is clearly intended for ranged, right?

Perish the thought!

I really miss turn one assaults.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

Imperial Deceit wrote:
Well it is also possible that these CT are just a taste of what is to come. There maybe way more for each CT then has been leaked.

For the sake of IF and IH, I bloody well hope so. Having read that roundup, it turns out that the most thematic HQ for IH, the MotF, comes with our supposedly special Chapter Tactic by default for every flavour of Marines, and in exchange he gets....+1 to repair rolls. Seriously I don't get this; they managed to look at BT and go "OK, so we give them their special thing(Crusaders), and we say 'no libbies', sorted", yet they were apparently incapable of looking at IH and saying "OK, so we give them their special thing(Rites of Battle/Zealot on MotF/Techmarines), and we say 'no chappies', sorted".

IF arguably have it even worse than us, since at least there might be some IWND Dreadnaught/Techmarine shenanigans to try, while they essentially get stuck with weaksauce versions of Ultramarines traits. Bolter Drill is a worse version of Tactical Doctrine, and Relentless Devs and Centurion devs is infinitely more useful than Tank Hunter, especially given the paucity of armour in a lot of 6th Edition regional metas.

No chaplains? IH has the Iron Fathers, which are essentially chaplains (chaplain tech marines, still though..)

Man though, Space marines get all this and yet CSM is derided for wanting rules for their legions.

Hence why I said our "thing" would be Rites of Battle(or in the new 'dex, seemingly, Zealot) on our MotF and (maybe)Techmarines, instead of a pointless +1 to vehicle repair rolls. Iron Fathers are not "essentially Chaplains", they're a total fusion of the two roles.

Maybe they are taking it away to make Blood Angels stay special - unless they loose it as well?

 Nevelon wrote:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278011-new-codex-space-marines-rumor/page-68#entry3420390

Nice compilation with some info I hadn't seen before. If this is accurate, White Scars might work out OK. Would require a little bit of tweaking from pure bike though. I'm not a fan of the one squad=troops if that comes to pass, not from a list building POV, but from a game play one. Which of your identical bike squads zooming across the table is the one that can score as a troop pick? What a headache...

WHITE SCARS CHAPTER TRAITS:
+1 to Jink saves
Autopass Dangerous Terrain tests
+1 to Hammer Of Wrath attacks
All White Scars units gain the Hit & Run USR, except for Terminators and Centurions.
KOR'SARRO KAHN:
Khan gives Bikes and Dedicated Transports in the White Scars detachment the Scout USR.
Moondraken inflicts D3 Hammer Of Wrath hits.

Wow, just look at Tigurius:

VARRO TIGURIUS:

Tigurius is Mastery Level 3.
He knows all Psychic Disciplines.
He can re-roll his dice when determining his psychic powers.
He can re-roll Reserves rolls(even successful ones).
The Hood Of Hellfire is now a Psychic Hood that lets him re-roll failed Psychic Tests.

EDIT:

On the other hand:
VANGUARD VETERANS:

Heroic Intervention: Negates the penalty for Disordered Charge and the Sergeant auto-passes Initiative checks for Glorious Intervention.
They CANNOT charge after Deep Striking anymore.
1 point cheaper per Marine.
Jump Pack upgrade is 7 points cheaper per Marine.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Stuff

Not related to your post, but you might want to change the BT part of your signature

They don't need to take away Heroic Intervention to make BA special, Decent of Angels does that. Heroic Interverion is what made the Vanguard special. In the current game, a squad of Sternguard popping out of a DP (which is cheaper then Jump packs for Vanguard) is going to do a lot more killing then Vanguard are. Especially if they get some kind of re-roll with their special issue ammo.

Taking away the deepstrike assault is a big deal. That is one expensive unit to throw on the table and not get to assault.

The heroic intervention was the most important reason to waste those points. They already had to hope they deep struck without scattering too much and then got a good roll to assault. They still got shot up and could be hit by interceptors.

Now they are just an assault squad with power weapons and an extra attack. The upside is they are now able to bring a special character with them and not really worry about it messing up their cool ability.

spamthulhu wrote:
Taking away the deepstrike assault is a big deal. That is one expensive unit to throw on the table and not get to assault.

They cost 20 points more than an identically equipped unit of Assault Marines, so they are not really that expensive if you consider that you are getting 2 attacks on every model for those points. And they have the exact same odds as dying as the regular Assault Marines.

The heroic intervention was the most important reason to waste those points. They already had to hope they deep struck without scattering too much and then got a good roll to assault. They still got shot up and could be hit by interceptors.

Now you are "wasting" 20 points to attack multiple units (which would be better with a larger unit, good thing that they are cheaper) and you are less at the mercy of the dice gods leaving your previously more expensive unit out in the open to die. Both versions of Heroic Interventions are situational, but the new version doesn't mean that you are one dice roll away from getting the unit wiped off the table without doing anything.

Now they are just an assault squad with power weapons and an extra attack. The upside is they are now able to bring a special character with them and not really worry about it messing up their cool ability.

A unit that can protect the special character better as well, for not very many points more.

True, but with the reductions do you think and assault squad would retain its higher cost? I am not sure that will be the case.

In the end one of the Vanilla Marine's biggest issue was that it couldn't build a reliable assault army with the options they had. Now It looks a bit better with some of the options and the ability to afford Vanguards a bit better. A raven guard army will be a bit stronger with fast attack/elite options for assaults.

spamthulhu wrote:
True, but with the reductions do you think and assault squad would retain its higher cost? I am not sure that will be the case.

Don't know.

Its the only unit for which the rumors have not mentioned a drop in points so far.

 d-usa wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Stuff

Not related to your post, but you might want to change the BT part of your signature

Aye, I guess that's a bit out of date now.

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1404786&posted=1#post1404786 My full roll-up so far of everything that's been posted on the 40k Radio Facebook. Fair warning, it's a loooooong post and is ordered chronologically.

If the IF Bolter Drill lets special ammo reroll on sternguards, it might make it as good/better than the UM ability

 Lobukia wrote:
If the IF Bolter Drill lets special ammo reroll on sternguards, it might make it as good/better than the UM ability

The UM can still use it with non-bolter weapons however, re-rolling plasma guns/heavy weapons is still pretty nice

 Lobukia wrote:
If the IF Bolter Drill lets special ammo reroll on sternguards, it might make it as good/better than the UM ability

The Imperial Fist Warlord trait does NOT work on Sternguard special ammo. Every bolter weapon listed on page 56 of the codex can use it though, save for Hurricane bolters because they're twin-linked.

Wait you have codex pages already?

when was this?

I just had an interesting thought, this is going to be the first codex that replaces a digital codex, I wonder if GW will do any sort of replacement deal for those people that have brought the digital one, like an auto update.......

Takes tongue out of cheek...

Is there any leaked pages or book pictures that has surfaced?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
If the IF Bolter Drill lets special ammo reroll on sternguards, it might make it as good/better than the UM ability

The UM can still use it with non-bolter weapons however, re-rolling plasma guns/heavy weapons is still pretty nice

From what I've read the UM ability is really down to how you want to build your army to take full advantage of it, and that makes sense. It looks like it's supposed to represent the full flexibility of the Codex by giving you rules that suit different army builds (which also makes it nice and flexible for the 8 billion successor chapters the UM have, all of which seem to be a -little- bit different than each other) while other the other chapter's traits are more specific to the way they operate instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marthike wrote:
Is there any leaked pages or book pictures that has surfaced?

No.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:
Wait you have codex pages already?

when was this?

No, I just have that really long Q&A I put together out of what 40k Radio answered on their Facebook.

EDIT: Here's the link again: http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1404786&posted=1#post1404786 It's my full roll-up so far of everything that's been posted on the 40k Radio Facebook. Fair warning, it's a loooooong post and is ordered chronologically.

Imperial Deceit wrote:
I can't think of a good reason to take away heroic intervetion though.

So Blood Angels can keep it!

I just read the rumors on BOLS about how the new chapter tactics work.

As a CSM player I'm VERY butt hurt that chaos legions didn't get a similar rule... I guess I got to wait for a Emperor's children or Iron Warrioir codex supplement. But even that makes me butt hurt that I have to buy a supplement well loyalists get all their rules in a single book.

Wait, if its listing bolter weapons, why would special ammo in a listed weapon not gain the reroll?

You are forgetting that Vanguard are only 20 pts more if they do not take Jump Packs, which prevents you from using any special rules. All you get for those 20 pts is an extra attack. When you add Jump packs the price goes up considerably.

Also attacking multiple enemies is very rarely a good thing. Even without the disorganized charge your vets are going to be badly outnumbered, and there are still a vast range of units that are as good or better in the assault then marines are.

You could always attach an IC to vanguard vets provided they have the same type (infanty vs jump infantry)

Hm, something leap out at me in this bit:

Q: Could you shed some light on the UM special rules?
A: Ultra marines are a little lengthy but they choose the doctrines of Tactical, Assault, or Devstator. The Tactical detachment re-roll ones, unless they're tactical marines and they re-roll all failed to hit rolls in the shooting phase. The Assault detachment re-rolls charges, unless they're assault squads, bikes, attack bikes and they get fleet. The Devastator detachment get to re-rolls on snap shots and overwatch shots, unless they're Devastators and they gain relentless as long as they're not disembarking from a transport in the movement phase.

compared with:

Q: What are the Imperial Fists chapter traits?
A: IF get bolter drill and that allows them to re-roll any 1s, it does not work with sternguard special rounds. Also Devs and Centurion Devs get Tank Hunters special Rules with a +1 on damaging buildings.

The UM tac doctrine says in the shooting phase. So you don't get to re-roll during overwatch/interceptor fire, while the IF does. It's a minor boost that the fists have over the ultras. But seeing as we are talking about rumors, filtered through a number of different people, I'm not going to make any assumptions on intricacies of exact wording.

I'll save my getting bent out of shape and nerd rage for when I see pics or have the book in hand. Even then, I might wait for the first FAQ. Overall, I have a positive feeling about the new codex ATM.

I like the new Rhino variants. Wonder if I'll be able to ally them in and claim that they're Sisters vehicles instead somehow...

If Iron Fists do get their CT exactly as it is currently rumored it doesn't really help their Sternguard. Special Ammo is what Sternguard is all about, otherwise ther are just expensive tactical marines. Besides they are veterans, if anyone should get a bonus for shooting, its them.

Imperial Deceit wrote:
You are forgetting that Vanguard are only 20 pts more if they do not take Jump Packs, which prevents you from using any special rules. All you get for those 20 pts is an extra attack. When you add Jump packs the price goes up considerably.

Also attacking multiple enemies is very rarely a good thing. Even without the disorganized charge your vets are going to be badly outnumbered, and there are still a vast range of units that are as good or better in the assault then marines are.

You could always attach an IC to vanguard vets provided they have the same type (infanty vs jump infantry)

Vanguard Vets with JP are 20 points more than Assault Marines with a power weapon.

I do think that they are meant to be a bodyguard unit considering the intervention USR.

Lobukia wrote:Wait, if its listing bolter weapons, why would special ammo in a listed weapon not gain the reroll?

From the wording of the rule as given in this quote below:

Nevelon wrote:Hm, something leap out at me in this bit:

Q: Could you shed some light on the UM special rules?
A: Ultra marines are a little lengthy but they choose the doctrines of Tactical, Assault, or Devstator. The Tactical detachment re-roll ones, unless they're tactical marines and they re-roll all failed to hit rolls in the shooting phase. The Assault detachment re-rolls charges, unless they're assault squads, bikes, attack bikes and they get fleet. The Devastator detachment get to re-rolls on snap shots and overwatch shots, unless they're Devastators and they gain relentless as long as they're not disembarking from a transport in the movement phase.

compared with:

Q: What are the Imperial Fists chapter traits?
A: IF get bolter drill and that allows them to re-roll any 1s, it does not work with sternguard special rounds. Also Devs and Centurion Devs get Tank Hunters special Rules with a +1 on damaging buildings.

The UM tac doctrine says in the shooting phase. So you don't get to re-roll during overwatch/interceptor fire, while the IF does. It's a minor boost that the fists have over the ultras. But seeing as we are talking about rumors, filtered through a number of different people, I'm not going to make any assumptions on intricacies of exact wording.

I'll save my getting bent out of shape and nerd rage for when I see pics or have the book in hand. Even then, I might wait for the first FAQ. Overall, I have a positive feeling about the new codex ATM.

That's a good point that I hadn't caught!

And thank you for saving the nerd rage. I've seen so much of it lately I think I may have overdosed.

Lobukia wrote:Wait, if its listing bolter weapons, why would special ammo in a listed weapon not gain the reroll?

Imperial Deceit wrote:If Iron Fists do get their CT exactly as it is currently rumored it doesn't really help their Sternguard. Special Ammo is what Sternguard is all about, otherwise ther are just expensive tactical marines. Besides they are veterans, if anyone should get a bonus for shooting, its them.

You mean "Imperial Fists" I hope.

That aside, I don't know GW's reasoning and we don't have the full verbatim rule, perhaps some logic for it is shared there.

 Melissia wrote:
I like the new Rhino variants. Wonder if I'll be able to ally them in and claim that they're Sisters vehicles instead somehow...

Is their any Space Marien chapters who follow the Imperial Cult maby who would be willing to work closely with the SoB?
(sorry for the off topicness, but a interesting question I just thought of when reading melissia's post.)

 Lockark wrote:
I just read the rumors on BOLS about how the new chapter tactics work.

As a CSM player I'm VERY butt hurt that chaos legions didn't get a similar rule... I guess I got to wait for a Emperor's children or Iron Warrioir codex supplement. But even that makes me butt hurt that I have to buy a supplement well loyalists get all their rules in a single book.

Don't be so quick to lament, at least you guys will still be able to get away with proxying whatever the hell you like to replace your crappy rules, I can already imagine the bollocks players of certain Chapters who got crappy rules in this 'dex are going to deal with if they try proxying.

Thinking about it logically, I can imagine UM Tactical doctrine will just be 'reroll 1's to hit with shooting.' (as someone expanded on later in that quote....)

They then separate the specific tactical bonus of "twin linking tactical squads" and match that up with " Devs and Centurion Devs get Tank Hunters special Rules with a +1 on damaging buildings. "

 Lockark wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I like the new Rhino variants. Wonder if I'll be able to ally them in and claim that they're Sisters vehicles instead somehow...

Is their any Space Marien chapters who follow the Imperial Cult maby who would be willing to work closely with the SoB?
(sorry for the off topicness, but a interesting question I just thought of when reading melissia's post.)

There are a few officially named ones that do, yes.

Yes I did mean Imperial fists, however now that i think about it, Why not Iron Fists as well? Are they not Space Marines? If you prick them, do they not Bleed?

Just saw the Centurion rules, T5, 2+, NO ++ save, 60 pts each basic.

Its official, centurions are the new Mutilators...

Bah Vanguard Vets are Fast Attack again? Heh, serves me right for believing the first set of rumors where they moved to the elite slot

Imperial Deceit wrote:Yes I did mean Imperial fists, however now that i think about it, Why not Iron Fists as well? Are they not Space Marines? If you prick them, do they not Bleed?

Well they're 22nd founding, and while they are one of the many Sons of Dorn, the chapter trait is specifically named after the Imperial Fists, so that's why I was confirming it. And if you price a Marine he kills you. It's pretty simple there.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:Just saw the Centurion rules, T5, 2+, NO ++ save, 60 pts each basic.

Its official, centurions are the new Mutilators...

Or they are a new unit that doesn't have an easy win button attached and will take tactics to employ properly and people will still enjoy using.

Just saying, that there is plenty of room in the middle of "OP" and "Sucks Jervis' Left Nut" for units to exist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grarg wrote:
Bah Vanguard Vets are Fast Attack again? Heh, serves me right for believing the first set of rumors where they moved to the elite slot

Where'd you see that? The only thing I've seen on them said they were Elites.

ClockworkZion wrote:

Imperial Deceit wrote:Yes I did mean Imperial fists, however now that i think about it, Why not Iron Fists as well? Are they not Space Marines? If you prick them, do they not Bleed?

Well they're 22nd founding, and while they are one of the many Sons of Dorn, the chapter trait is specifically named after the Imperial Fists, so that's why I was confirming it. And if you price a Marine he kills you. It's pretty simple there.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:Just saw the Centurion rules, T5, 2+, NO ++ save, 60 pts each basic.

Its official, centurions are the new Mutilators...

Or they are a new unit that doesn't have an easy win button attached and will take tactics to employ properly and people will still enjoy using.

Just saying, that there is plenty of room in the middle of "OP" and "Sucks Jervis' Left Nut" for units to exist.

It has nothing to do with being OP, stop jumping to that conclusion.

They cost 190 for 3 of them BASIC, as in with just heavy bolters. For less points than that (and I'm assuming they follow the prices of the DA codex here, which is all but confirmed now). I can get a triple Lascannon Pred, or 5 Devs with 4 Lascannons/4 MLs with skyfire, or TEN devs with 4 multi-meltas So please tell me why I would ever want these guys, especially when Eldar and Tau have so much AP2/quasi-rending that would wreck them in one turn of shooting?

I, personally, am very glad that the new codex doesn't have any auto-includes or insta-win units. Despite the fact the my loyal BA will be playing as SM. I believe that SM was never about having the ultimate single unit on the field, but rather how through tactical acumen and skill SM are able to function as a whole to take down larger armies or superior units. Adding in a weapon or unit that takes away the critical thinking aspect of the army is not fluffy. The power of a SM army should more be based on how the player fields and runs their army and less from list building.

Q: What are the Imperial Fists chapter traits?
A: IF get bolter drill and that allows them to re-roll any 1s, it does not work with sternguard special rounds. Also Devs and Centurion Devs get Tank Hunters special Rules with a +1 on damaging buildings.

Much happier about this, Gives me a reason to start using my devastators again. The first rumour for the IF i thought the tank hunter was only for the Centurion Devs.

Still not clear how the Um tactics work. What is the Detachment it talks about?

Ultra marines are a little lengthy but they choose the doctrines of Tactical, Assault, or Devstator. The [b]Tactical detachment[/b] re-roll ones, unless they're tactical marines and they re-roll all failed to hit rolls in the shooting phase. The Assault detachment re-rolls charges, unless they're assault squads, bikes, attack bikes and they get fleet. [b]The Devastator detachment[/b] get to re-rolls on snap shots and overwatch shots, unless they're Devastators and they gain relentless as long as they're not disembarking from a transport in the movement phase.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

Imperial Deceit wrote:Yes I did mean Imperial fists, however now that i think about it, Why not Iron Fists as well? Are they not Space Marines? If you prick them, do they not Bleed?

Well they're 22nd founding, and while they are one of the many Sons of Dorn, the chapter trait is specifically named after the Imperial Fists, so that's why I was confirming it. And if you price a Marine he kills you. It's pretty simple there.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:Just saw the Centurion rules, T5, 2+, NO ++ save, 60 pts each basic.

Its official, centurions are the new Mutilators...

Or they are a new unit that doesn't have an easy win button attached and will take tactics to employ properly and people will still enjoy using.

Just saying, that there is plenty of room in the middle of "OP" and "Sucks Jervis' Left Nut" for units to exist.

It has nothing to do with being OP, stop jumping to that conclusion.

They cost 190 for 3 of them BASIC, as in with just heavy bolters. For less points than that (and I'm assuming they follow the prices of the DA codex here, which is all but confirmed now). I can get a triple Lascannon Pred, or 5 Devs with 4 Lascannons/4 MLs with skyfire, or TEN devs with 4 multi-meltas So please tell me why I would ever want these guys, especially when Eldar and Tau have so much AP2/quasi-rending that would wreck them in one turn of shooting?

Depending on the cost to upgrade to grav-guns they are MC/High T unit killers. You take them because they give you a one turn answer to things like Wraith Knights, Dreadknights, and Riptides. Let alone Nid MC's, Thunderwolf Cav, Terminators of all stripes, Wraith units of all types, crisis or broadside units, and the list goes on and on. I could easily see dropping a unit or two into the current meta.

Oh, and they don't fall down to a certain dragon unit that all of your previous examples of comparables do.

Imperial Deceit wrote:
I, personally, am very glad that the new codex doesn't have any auto-includes or insta-win units. Despite the fact the my loyal BA will be playing as SM. I believe that SM was never about having the ultimate single unit on the field, but rather how through tactical acumen and skill SM are able to function as a whole to take down larger armies or superior units. Adding in a weapon or unit that takes away the critical thinking aspect of the army is not fluffy. The power of a SM army should more be based on how the player fields and runs their army and less from list building.

I agree, and was very sad to see the elect to fail all morale checks thing disapear.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

Imperial Deceit wrote:Yes I did mean Imperial fists, however now that i think about it, Why not Iron Fists as well? Are they not Space Marines? If you prick them, do they not Bleed?

Well they're 22nd founding, and while they are one of the many Sons of Dorn, the chapter trait is specifically named after the Imperial Fists, so that's why I was confirming it. And if you price a Marine he kills you. It's pretty simple there.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:Just saw the Centurion rules, T5, 2+, NO ++ save, 60 pts each basic.

Its official, centurions are the new Mutilators...

Or they are a new unit that doesn't have an easy win button attached and will take tactics to employ properly and people will still enjoy using.

Just saying, that there is plenty of room in the middle of "OP" and "Sucks Jervis' Left Nut" for units to exist.

It has nothing to do with being OP, stop jumping to that conclusion.

They cost 190 for 3 of them BASIC, as in with just heavy bolters. For less points than that (and I'm assuming they follow the prices of the DA codex here, which is all but confirmed now). I can get a triple Lascannon Pred, or 5 Devs with 4 Lascannons/4 MLs with skyfire, or TEN devs with 4 multi-meltas So please tell me why I would ever want these guys, especially when Eldar and Tau have so much AP2/quasi-rending that would wreck them in one turn of shooting?

I never said they WHERE OP. I said there was a lot of room on the scale between OP and total trash. Don't put words into my mouth.

And obviously they aren't for you if you can't see a way to use them effectively. But for every one who things X unit sucks there are others who are willing to give them a chance or at least see if they can make them work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Imperial Deceit wrote:I, personally, am very glad that the new codex doesn't have any auto-includes or insta-win units. Despite the fact the my loyal BA will be playing as SM. I believe that SM was never about having the ultimate single unit on the field, but rather how through tactical acumen and skill SM are able to function as a whole to take down larger armies or superior units. Adding in a weapon or unit that takes away the critical thinking aspect of the army is not fluffy. The power of a SM army should more be based on how the player fields and runs their army and less from list building.

Agreed. A large number of options and nothing seems like I -need- to have it.

prpetros wrote:Q: What are the Imperial Fists chapter traits?
A: IF get bolter drill and that allows them to re-roll any 1s, it does not work with sternguard special rounds. Also Devs and Centurion Devs get Tank Hunters special Rules with a +1 on damaging buildings.

Much happier about this, Gives me a reason to start using my devastators again. The first rumour for the IF i thought the tank hunter was only for the Centurion Devs.

Still not clear how the Um tactics work. What is the Detachment it talks about?

Ultra marines are a little lengthy but they choose the doctrines of Tactical, Assault, or Devstator. The [b]Tactical detachment[/b] re-roll ones, unless they're tactical marines and they re-roll all failed to hit rolls in the shooting phase. The Assault detachment re-rolls charges, unless they're assault squads, bikes, attack bikes and they get fleet. [b]The Devastator detachment[/b] get to re-rolls on snap shots and overwatch shots, unless they're Devastators and they gain relentless as long as they're not disembarking from a transport in the movement phase.

From my understanding, without seeing the book, with the UM/Vanilla Chapter Trait you pick one of those three doctrines: Tactical, Assault or Devastator and your army is that "detachment". The idea is that your army is picking to focus on a specific style of combat, so it chooses tactics to support those elements.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Lockark wrote:
I just read the rumors on BOLS about how the new chapter tactics work.

As a CSM player I'm VERY butt hurt that chaos legions didn't get a similar rule... I guess I got to wait for a Emperor's children or Iron Warrioir codex supplement. But even that makes me butt hurt that I have to buy a supplement well loyalists get all their rules in a single book.

Don't be so quick to lament, at least you guys will still be able to get away with proxying whatever the hell you like to replace your crappy rules, I can already imagine the bollocks players of certain Chapters who got crappy rules in this 'dex are going to deal with if they try proxying.

I played with that damned 4th ed csm dex all 5th and never proxied a loyalist dex despite the fact everyone told me I might as well. I'd rather not start now.

I would of rather got a half decent dex in the 1st place.

also so far from what I read it sounds like all of the chapters got prety good rules. The ultramarien's choose one of three at the beginning kinda feels clearly the best of the lot, but none of them read as crappy to me.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Just saw the Centurion rules, T5, 2+, NO ++ save, 60 pts each basic.

Its official, centurions are the new Mutilators...

with twinlinked flamers, ATSKNF, str9 ap2 armor bane at init, and grenades they are both cheaper than mutilators(61 points with MoN) and considerably better.

the shooting versions look better than obliterators too.

According to B&C, Salamaders get re-rolls for both flame AND melta weapons. Might be too OP if true, coupled with Vulkan making Meltas MC, that means any tank that gets in Melta-Range it all but guaranteed to get popped.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Exergy wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Just saw the Centurion rules, T5, 2+, NO ++ save, 60 pts each basic.

Its official, centurions are the new Mutilators...

with twinlinked flamers, ATSKNF, str9 ap2 armor bane at init, and grenades they are both cheaper than mutilators(61 points with MoN) and considerably better.

the shooting versions look better than obliterators too.

I was mostly talking about the shooty ones, but the assault ones also have Slow and Purposeful, and apparently cant deep strike (B&C dont say), which means you NEED a LR to get them anywhere. Thats at least 440 pts right there. You might as well just take hammernators, roughly the same price and since they have a ++ and Centurions don't, are much more survivable.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:


It has nothing to do with being OP, stop jumping to that conclusion.

They cost 190 for 3 of them BASIC, as in with just heavy bolters. For less points than that (and I'm assuming they follow the prices of the DA codex here, which is all but confirmed now). I can get a triple Lascannon Pred, or 5 Devs with 4 Lascannons/4 MLs with skyfire, or TEN devs with 4 multi-meltas So please tell me why I would ever want these guys, especially when Eldar and Tau have so much AP2/quasi-rending that would wreck them in one turn of shooting?

They have hurricane bolters too. So that is 9 TL HB shots and 3/6 regular bolter shots. of course I am having some trouble with the plural. Do they have one twinlinked heavy bolter or 2 twin linked heavy bolterS. Do they have one twinlinked hurricane bolter or 2 twin linked hurricane bolterS. I keep seeing the S and it clearly looks like they have 2 of each weapon.

With lascannons and missile launchers they cost 90 points each, get a missile and lascannon shot, both twinlinked. Can walk and fire. If they are IF they get crazy tank hunter bonuses. IH they get 6+ fnp and IWND. Devs cant use IWND

Consider that an obliterator is 76 points with T5, only gets 1 lascannon shot that isnt twinlinked and dont have ATSKNF. sure they have a 5++, but 24 points gets you twinlinked on the lascannon, an extra twinlinked missile launcher, ATSKNF, and chapter tactics, which could be 6+FNP and IWND or Tank Hunters? Seems like 24 points well spent.

Centurions seem to be geared toward anti-vehicle pretty heavily, which would have been a big deal in 5th but given how hurt vehicles are in 6th its less important than it was.

I really like the look of the new tactical squad and vet squads. Looks like the tactical guys finally got legs that have them standing more up right as opposed to the old "squatting legs" The vets look like they have some awesome weapon and bitz choices. I definitely like the new grav gun option as well. As for the new EXO SQUAD Marines, Idk, not for me, I keep thinking of that old cartoon show EXOSQUAD. Why would SM's need heavy infantry that are heavier than termies but smaller than a dreads?

Tigurius makes me urpy. Looks like 5 points less than Eldar's generic farseer + Autarch without upgrades, but tougher, meaner in combat, much better psyker, better reserves manip.

Just - why?

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Just saw the Centurion rules, T5, 2+, NO ++ save, 60 pts each basic.
Its official, centurions are the new Mutilators...

with twinlinked flamers, ATSKNF, str9 ap2 armor bane at init, and grenades they are both cheaper than mutilators(61 points with MoN) and considerably better.
the shooting versions look better than obliterators too.

I was mostly talking about the shooty ones, but the assault ones also have Slow and Purposeful, and apparently cant deep strike (B&C dont say), which means you NEED a LR to get them anywhere. Thats at least 440 pts right there. You might as well just take hammernators, roughly the same price and since they have a ++ and Centurions don't, are much more survivable.

I am not making a case that they are good, but they arent mutilators. Mutilators are terribad. No grenades on an assault unit, Ld8 and no ATSKNF on an assault unit, No Character to take challenges on a unit that is clearly designed to have another character in it, and Chaos's general problem of getting their assault units into assault(without high capacity landraiders)
They have to swap their weapons every round of combat making them less than optimal in the second round of fighting.

O but mutilators have FEAR, must be Fing awesome!(nope more bad)

I can already see so many ways that Centurians are just flat better than Mutialtors. The lack of a 5++ is bad, but there isnt that much AP2 ignores cover, so it isnt like they are going to be out in the open that long.

 Lockark wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Lockark wrote:
I just read the rumors on BOLS about how the new chapter tactics work.

As a CSM player I'm VERY butt hurt that chaos legions didn't get a similar rule... I guess I got to wait for a Emperor's children or Iron Warrioir codex supplement. But even that makes me butt hurt that I have to buy a supplement well loyalists get all their rules in a single book.

Don't be so quick to lament, at least you guys will still be able to get away with proxying whatever the hell you like to replace your crappy rules, I can already imagine the bollocks players of certain Chapters who got crappy rules in this 'dex are going to deal with if they try proxying.

I played with that damned 4th ed csm dex all 5th and never proxied a loyalist dex despite the fact everyone told me I might as well. I'd rather not start now.

I would of rather got a half decent dex in the 1st place.

also so far from what I read it sounds like all of the chapters got prety good rules. The ultramarien's choose one of three at the beginning kinda feels clearly the best of the lot, but none of them read as crappy to me.

The CSM book is more than half decent in my eyes regardless what people tell me. I haven't seen a codex come out yet for 6th I would call "bad". The fact is that GW has been changing the books to have less "I WIN" buttons and that's great. All the books have options but nothing is a self-supporting monster that can win the game for you on it's own (except MAYBE the Heldrake, but that's more of a case of just taking 3 of them), and I think people are missing that.

Frankly I'm tired of hearing people sell their book short because they don't want to move away from the easiest to use units in the book. Yes, some units need more support than others, or have very specific roles in what they do, but I still don't see anything I'd say is "useless". In my mind it's all a matter of play style and a willingness to experiment, not the "I Win" units that truly makes a book good or bad for any one person.

Imperial Deceit wrote:
Centurions seem to be geared toward anti-vehicle pretty heavily, which would have been a big deal in 5th but given how hurt vehicles are in 6th its less important than it was.

at least C:SM gets units designed for 5th edition
CSM gets units designed for 4th edition, or maybe even 3rd(warp talons I am looking at you)

perezba7 wrote:
Why would SM's need heavy infantry that are heavier than termies but smaller than a dreads?

QFT, they don't really make sense in the core 'dex, since it's a pretty unnecessary retcon (instead of making some sort of elite-er termie unit)

It would have been fine to stick in some chapter that had a theme about having depleted TDA suits and this is the stop-gap/innovative alternative, or for it to be some sort of specialized experiment, but it's not very fitting in the game world to have a heavier unit than termies that isn't based on them in generic C:SM.

ClockworkZion wrote:

The CSM book is more than half decent in my eyes regardless what people tell me. I haven't seen a codex come out yet for 6th I would call "bad". The fact is that GW has been changing the books to have less "I WIN" buttons and that's great. All the books have options but nothing is a self-supporting monster that can win the game for you on it's own (except MAYBE the Heldrake, but that's more of a case of just taking 3 of them), and I think people are missing that.

Frankly I'm tired of hearing people sell their book short because they don't want to move away from the easiest to use units in the book. Yes, some units need more support than others, or have very specific roles in what they do, but I still don't see anything I'd say is "useless". In my mind it's all a matter of play style and a willingness to experiment, not the "I Win" units that truly makes a book good or bad for any one person.

PMs and Heldrakes are just that I win button that you are talking about.

It is like GW took the best unit in the CSM codex, made it better, added an additional crazy powerful flyer and then nerfed everything else and added some terrible units.
Zerkers got nerfed, Tsons got hit by the edition shift, regular CSM got nerfed, oblits nerfed, DPs nerfed, Terminators nerfed, chosen nerfed.
Of those units, only DPs even approached I WIN button

 Exergy wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

The CSM book is more than half decent in my eyes regardless what people tell me. I haven't seen a codex come out yet for 6th I would call "bad". The fact is that GW has been changing the books to have less "I WIN" buttons and that's great. All the books have options but nothing is a self-supporting monster that can win the game for you on it's own (except MAYBE the Heldrake, but that's more of a case of just taking 3 of them), and I think people are missing that.

Frankly I'm tired of hearing people sell their book short because they don't want to move away from the easiest to use units in the book. Yes, some units need more support than others, or have very specific roles in what they do, but I still don't see anything I'd say is "useless". In my mind it's all a matter of play style and a willingness to experiment, not the "I Win" units that truly makes a book good or bad for any one person.

PMs and Heldrakes are just that I win button that you are talking about.

It is like GW took the best unit in the CSM codex, made it better, added an additional crazy powerful flyer and then nerfed everything else and added some terrible units.
Zerkers got nerfed, Tsons got hit by the edition shift, regular CSM got nerfed, oblits nerfed, DPs nerfed, Terminators nerfed, chosen nerfed.
Of those units, only DPs even approached I WIN button

I did say "less" I win buttons. Yes the CSM still have a couple of units that feel like they need to be in every list, but the other options aren't BAD, they're just overshadowed by things that are too GOOD.

Most of the Zerker nerf came out of the edition change, not the codex, at leas the codex does offer a way to make them better in combat (chainaxes) even if they aren't free. And the rest of those I stand by not being bad units. They get overshadowed for sure, and some may even need some more support than others, but that doesn't make them bad, it just makes them more complex to play.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

perezba7 wrote:
Why would SM's need heavy infantry that are heavier than termies but smaller than a dreads?

QFT, they don't really make sense in the core 'dex, since it's a pretty unnecessary retcon (instead of making some sort of elite-er termie unit)

It would have been fine to stick in some chapter that had a theme about having depleted TDA suits and this is the stop-gap/innovative alternative, or for it to be some sort of specialized experiment, but it's not very fitting in the game world to have a heavier unit than termies that isn't based on them in generic C:SM.

Exactly they have Dreadnoughts and Terminators but I guess GW decided they needed a new unit and got bored with making terrible looking flyers and decided the ruin the look of the infantry as well- plus side if they have rubbish rules and look rubbish - no one will use them and they will be quickly discarded....................surely there was something esle they could have done.......like new Firedrake Salamander Terminators

Conversely the AA Marine tanks make sense - adpations of present deisgns that fit with the fast moving ethos of the Astartes.

Imperial Deceit wrote:
Centurions seem to be geared toward anti-vehicle pretty heavily, which would have been a big deal in 5th but given how hurt vehicles are in 6th its less important than it was.

Until you realize that anything AT is almost always anti MC. MC's are VERY popular in this edition. I think the centurions will be well worth fielding a unit or two of...

EDIT: The shooty ones of course

Screw titans I want one of these, looks like something the angry marines would have.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Imperial Deceit wrote:
Centurions seem to be geared toward anti-vehicle pretty heavily, which would have been a big deal in 5th but given how hurt vehicles are in 6th its less important than it was.

Until you realize that anything AT is almost always anti MC. MC's are VERY popular in this edition. I think the centurions will be well worth fielding a unit or two of...

EDIT: The shooty ones of course

I was originally pretty concerned about what the centurions will do to the MC meta. However, I realized that as SNP 24" range weapons, they're going to suffer against Eldar MCs, at the least - Wraithlords usually have a pair of S6+ AP2 R36"
weapons, and wraithknights are even worse, able to obtain the S6 Ap2 R48" heavy 3 blast or S10 AP2 R36". Obviously, the latter instagibs the centurions, which means that even running IH centurions won't help.

Likewise against the Riptide, Centurions are slower and shorter ranged, and the Tau have Jet type. They're not really suited to go toe to toe with Tau or Eldar's shooting specialists.

What these things do to Tyranid MCs will be interesting to see, as they're the next codex out.

 Exergy wrote:
Do they have one twinlinked heavy bolter or 2 twin linked heavy bolterS. Do they have one twinlinked hurricane bolter or 2 twin linked hurricane bolterS. I keep seeing the S and it clearly looks like they have 2 of each weapon.

Well, the whole idea is that twin-linked weapons are two weapons linked by their mounting or firing system. I suspect that that's where the confusion is coming from. Some people are pluralizing the weapon names because that seems correct in English even though it's incorrect in the context of 40K terminology.

The photos depict Centurions with one row of three Bolter barrels on each side of the chest, which is consistent with a single Hurricane Bolter system (three twin-linked Bolters for a total of six barrels). Similarly, each Devastator Centurion appears to carry two single-barreled heavy weapons, which is consistent with a single twin-linked weapon system (two separate weapons linked to fire as one).

The Centurions rules do seem a bit lackluster, as do the models.

Do they really not have an invulnerable save?

Gwyidion wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Imperial Deceit wrote:
Centurions seem to be geared toward anti-vehicle pretty heavily, which would have been a big deal in 5th but given how hurt vehicles are in 6th its less important than it was.

Until you realize that anything AT is almost always anti MC. MC's are VERY popular in this edition. I think the centurions will be well worth fielding a unit or two of...

EDIT: The shooty ones of course

I was originally pretty concerned about what the centurions will do to the MC meta. However, I realized that as SNP 24" range weapons, they're going to suffer against Eldar MCs, at the least - Wraithlords usually have a pair of S6+ AP2 R36"
weapons, and wraithknights are even worse, able to obtain the S6 Ap2 R48" heavy 3 blast or S10 AP2 R36". Obviously, the latter instagibs the centurions, which means that even running IH centurions won't help.

Likewise against the Riptide, Centurions are slower and shorter ranged, and the Tau have Jet type. They're not really suited to go toe to toe with Tau or Eldar's shooting specialists.

What these things do to Tyranid MCs will be interesting to see, as they're the next codex out.

Tables are not infinitely large. It's not hard to pin something down by turn 2 with a 24" range weapon. And that doesn't take into account them not using grav weapons (granted, I'm not likely to use them without grav weapons).

Pretty sure tyranid MCs care much less about these graviton weapons compared to the dreadknight and riptide...there are a lot more bugs and they're a lot sturdier.

Finding the right mix of graviton to plasma is going to be the key.

ClockworkZion wrote:

Lobukia wrote:Wait, if its listing bolter weapons, why would special ammo in a listed weapon not gain the reroll?

From the wording of the rule as given in this quote below:

Nevelon wrote:Hm, something leap out at me in this bit:

Q: Could you shed some light on the UM special rules?
A: Ultra marines are a little lengthy but they choose the doctrines of Tactical, Assault, or Devstator. The Tactical detachment re-roll ones, unless they're tactical marines and they re-roll all failed to hit rolls in the shooting phase. The Assault detachment re-rolls charges, unless they're assault squads, bikes, attack bikes and they get fleet. The Devastator detachment get to re-rolls on snap shots and overwatch shots, unless they're Devastators and they gain relentless as long as they're not disembarking from a transport in the movement phase.

compared with:

Q: What are the Imperial Fists chapter traits?
A: IF get bolter drill and that allows them to re-roll any 1s, it does not work with sternguard special rounds. Also Devs and Centurion Devs get Tank Hunters special Rules with a +1 on damaging buildings.

The UM tac doctrine says in the shooting phase. So you don't get to re-roll during overwatch/interceptor fire, while the IF does. It's a minor boost that the fists have over the ultras. But seeing as we are talking about rumors, filtered through a number of different people, I'm not going to make any assumptions on intricacies of exact wording.

I'll save my getting bent out of shape and nerd rage for when I see pics or have the book in hand. Even then, I might wait for the first FAQ. Overall, I have a positive feeling about the new codex ATM.

That's a good point that I hadn't caught!

And thank you for saving the nerd rage. I've seen so much of it lately I think I may have overdosed.

Lobukia wrote:Wait, if its listing bolter weapons, why would special ammo in a listed weapon not gain the reroll?

Imperial Deceit wrote:If Iron Fists do get their CT exactly as it is currently rumored it doesn't really help their Sternguard. Special Ammo is what Sternguard is all about, otherwise ther are just expensive tactical marines. Besides they are veterans, if anyone should get a bonus for shooting, its them.

You mean "Imperial Fists" I hope.

That aside, I don't know GW's reasoning and we don't have the full verbatim rule, perhaps some logic for it is shared there.

Between you and me, I'd take rerolling ones to hit in the shooting phase, + TL for Tactical Marines, over rerolling ones for bolters only in any phase.

Tigurius makes me urpy. Looks like 5 points less than Eldar's generic farseer + Autarch without upgrades, but tougher, meaner in combat, much better psyker, better reserves manip.

Just - why?

Unless you've seen new points for him, we have no idea how much he costs. Not to mention, as he stands now, he has a mediocre statline by any stretch of the imagination and costs as much as a Land Raider.

 ductvader wrote:
Pretty sure tyranid MCs care much less about these graviton weapons compared to the dreadknight and riptide...there are a lot more bugs and they're a lot sturdier.

Finding the right mix of graviton to plasma is going to be the key.

from what I have seen of the grav guns they are salvo(other than the pistol)
3 shots from the gun or 5 shots from the cannon would be nastier than most plasma which is limited to 2 shots.

Of course the grav gun will suffer like most salvo weapons. When you move it becomes completely useless.

Alpharius wrote:The Centurions rules do seem a bit lackluster, as do the models.

Do they really not have an invulnerable save?

That's what 40k Radio has been saying.

What is with this thread duplicating posts?

 ductvader wrote:
What is with this thread duplicating posts?

Because every post is about how bad the centurians look? or because WS got hosed? or because BT want their own Codex?

I mean...no matter what computer I am on...this thread seems glitchy...I have on three separate occassions had my post...post twice in a row.

 ductvader wrote:
What is with this thread duplicating posts?

It is a general glitch of this website. Just do nothing and they disappear after a while.

It's a database clitch, just ignore your dublicate post and it fixes itself after a minute.

Could have something to do with my profile but its not happening anywhere else for me

 ductvader wrote:
What is with this thread duplicating posts?

It's an issue with the server, just navigate away from it for a moment, and come back...

sweet

ClockworkZion wrote:

Alpharius wrote:The Centurions rules do seem a bit lackluster, as do the models.

Do they really not have an invulnerable save?

That's what 40k Radio has been saying.

It might just be that their armor is described as a type of terminator armor(giving them 5++ and deep strike) but not actaully saying it in their entry.

or maybe they are meganobs with targeters.

Wounding every MC on a 3+ and some on a 2+ with an ap2 gun is something a tyranid player ill not smile at. THe only things that won't care would be the termagants. Everything MC will flinch seeing the gun and thats if it only shoots once. If they have multiple shots they will be pretty scary.

Heavy vehicle armies will be the ones giggling when they see a lot of grav weapons.

 Exergy wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Pretty sure tyranid MCs care much less about these graviton weapons compared to the dreadknight and riptide...there are a lot more bugs and they're a lot sturdier.

Finding the right mix of graviton to plasma is going to be the key.

from what I have seen of the grav guns they are salvo(other than the pistol)
3 shots from the gun or 5 shots from the cannon would be nastier than most plasma which is limited to 2 shots.

Of course the grav gun will suffer like most salvo weapons. When you move it becomes completely useless.

Yes and the "Grav Cannons" are on Centruions, witch are S&P

What I want to know is what type of missiles do you get to replace the hurricane bolters on the centurions with? Is it basicly a cyclone/typhoon launcher? just a basic missile launcher or is it something totally new?

Any news on if these chapter tactics cost anything to select? If not my poor CSM are very sad as that now means ATSKNF (Arguably the best rule in the game) is only worth .5 points to C:SM and the highly potent (Some seem pretty broken actually so I imagine there's a lot of fake in them) army wide chapter tactics buffs are also .5 points...

Darkwater wrote:
Any news on if these chapter tactics cost anything to select? If not my poor CSM are very sad as that now means ATSKNF (Arguably the best rule in the game) is only worth .5 points to C:SM and the highly potent (Some seem pretty broken actually so I imagine there's a lot of fake in them) army wide chapter tactics buffs are also .5 points...

I agree, at the very least, CSM need to

A.) be 1 point cheaper

B.) have VotLW standard

C.) Both A and B

 Mr Morden wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

perezba7 wrote:
Why would SM's need heavy infantry that are heavier than termies but smaller than a dreads?

QFT, they don't really make sense in the core 'dex, since it's a pretty unnecessary retcon (instead of making some sort of elite-er termie unit)

It would have been fine to stick in some chapter that had a theme about having depleted TDA suits and this is the stop-gap/innovative alternative, or for it to be some sort of specialized experiment, but it's not very fitting in the game world to have a heavier unit than termies that isn't based on them in generic C:SM.

Exactly they have Dreadnoughts and Terminators but I guess GW decided they needed a new unit and got bored with making terrible looking flyers and decided the ruin the look of the infantry as well- plus side if they have rubbish rules and look rubbish - no one will use them and they will be quickly discarded....................surely there was something esle they could have done.......like new Firedrake Salamander Terminators

Conversely the AA Marine tanks make sense - adpations of present deisgns that fit with the fast moving ethos of the Astartes.

I agree, it seems like an awfully dull and safe choice, just to make even bigger, uh, elite-er marines, despite those already existing. It's shoehorned, boring and completely unnecessary complete with rather unflattering models (in my honest opinion). Some sort of new specialist squad with their own special niche instead of being 'even better' would of been nice.

 bigboss1o1 wrote:
Screw titans I want one of these, looks like something the angry marines would have.

"AND I SHALL FORM THE CAPUT!"

"WE ADVANCE AS ONE! WE ARE FORCE VOLTRONICUS!"

I can't wait till real leaks start pouring in. Not these "rumors" that lots of people seem to be taking as fact. A lot of over-reaction as usual to something we still don't know about for 100% certainty yet. Although if they made vulkan even better, even with a price increase I will be jumping for joy!

The rumors linked a few pages back have Tigurius @ 165. That's what makes me 'urpy'.

The cool stuff in the codex definitely seems to be chapter tactics - centurions don't seem that good and aren't that nice of models.

You can surely argue that boards aren't infinite sized, but when the two most-recent principle targets of grav weapons - the riptide and the wraithknight, are jet/jump MCs, they both out-range and outpace centurions with grav weapons without breaking a sweat.

The much more vulnerable targets are those with good armor saves but poor movement. Like... terminators, i guess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chancetragedy wrote:
I can't wait till real leaks start pouring in. Not these "rumors" that lots of people seem to be taking as fact. A lot of over-reaction as usual to something we still don't know about for 100% certainty yet. Although if they made vulkan even better, even with a price increase I will be jumping for joy!

Either the rumors are coming from someone who has a codex, and are therefore likely very close, barring rules-reading nuance, or,

the person doesn't have a codex, in which case they're probably all wrong.

This close to release, usually the rumors are pretty good. The next stage is photos.

 Exergy wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

Alpharius wrote:The Centurions rules do seem a bit lackluster, as do the models.

Do they really not have an invulnerable save?

That's what 40k Radio has been saying.

It might just be that their armor is described as a type of terminator armor(giving them 5++ and deep strike) but not actaully saying it in their entry.

or maybe they are meganobs with targeters.

Not impossible, but seeing as they've been quoting the wargear section in other rumors I'm not putting my money on that chance. Better to assume they don't have it and enjoy it if they get it instead of the reverse.

Gwyidion wrote:
The rumors linked a few pages back have Tigurius @ 165. That's what makes me 'urpy'.

Aaaaand new ally to lead the 50 Guard blob has just been found. This...pleases me.

If its true that the Salamnder Chapter Tactics allow Armor Pen. Re-rolls for melta, Looks like Salamander may once again be one of the top SM builds.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
If its true that the Salamnder Chapter Tactics allow Armor Pen. Re-rolls for melta, Looks like Salamander may once again be one of the top SM builds.

How often do you need to reroll armor pens for Meltas.

Crazyterran wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
If its true that the Salamnder Chapter Tactics allow Armor Pen. Re-rolls for melta, Looks like Salamander may once again be one of the top SM builds.

How often do you need to reroll armor pens for Meltas.

Not often, but there is always that awful time you roll snake eyes, and coupled with Vulcan allowing MC meltas again, it guarantees any vehicles withing melta range WILL be blown up.

I'm already thinking how much damage 5 multi-melta devs in a drop pod can do.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
If its true that the Salamnder Chapter Tactics allow Armor Pen. Re-rolls for melta, Looks like Salamander may once again be one of the top SM builds.

How often do you need to reroll armor pens for Meltas.

Not often, but there is always that awful time you roll snake eyes, and coupled with Vulcan allowing MC meltas again, it guarantees any vehicles withing melta range WILL be blown up.

I'm already thinking how much damage 5 multi-melta devs in a drop pod can do.

None, because 5 MM Devs in a pod is illegal.

Crazyterran wrote:

How often do you need to reroll armor pens for Meltas.

Every. Fricking. Time.

My old fluff build for Raven Guard is becoming a real viable build. I except people to accuse me of bandwagoning soon.

Scout troops (now with stealth in addition to bolstered defenses from a TFC), freed up spot in Fast Attack with the Storm becoming a dedicated transport, HQ going with jump infantry, scout bikers.

This pleases me.

Crazyterran wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
If its true that the Salamnder Chapter Tactics allow Armor Pen. Re-rolls for melta, Looks like Salamander may once again be one of the top SM builds.

How often do you need to reroll armor pens for Meltas.

Not often, but there is always that awful time you roll snake eyes, and coupled with Vulcan allowing MC meltas again, it guarantees any vehicles withing melta range WILL be blown up.

I'm already thinking how much damage 5 multi-melta devs in a drop pod can do.

None, because 5 MM Devs in a pod is illegal.

...you know what I meant

But seriously, 5 devs, 4 multi meltas + a combi-melta on the sgt, all basically twin-liked with armor re-rolls, all for155 pts...

Land Speeder Storms moving to Dedicated Transports is such a no-brainer decision, and I'm happy to see it.

 Brother SRM wrote:
Land Speeder Storms moving to Dedicated Transports is such a no-brainer decision, and I'm happy to see it.

I really can't +1 this enough.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Pretty sure tyranid MCs care much less about these graviton weapons compared to the dreadknight and riptide...there are a lot more bugs and they're a lot sturdier.

Finding the right mix of graviton to plasma is going to be the key.

from what I have seen of the grav guns they are salvo(other than the pistol)
3 shots from the gun or 5 shots from the cannon would be nastier than most plasma which is limited to 2 shots.

Of course the grav gun will suffer like most salvo weapons. When you move it becomes completely useless.

Yes and the "Grav Cannons" are on Centruions, witch are S&P

yes my point, so 5 twinlinked shots that wound on 2,3+?

Say you have 3 centurians firing at a riptide
13.33 hits
11.11 wounds
7.40 wounds after the 5++
dread riptide

or against a stock wraithknight
13.33 hits
8.66 wounds
dead wraithknight

Firing at a vehicle isnt that great though.
13.33 hits
2.221 imobilized and hull points stripped.

It is nice that you can get imobilized but it wont kill that LR demolisher that is about to smash your centurians.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tvih wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:

How often do you need to reroll armor pens for Meltas.

Every. Fricking. Time.

when outside melta range? all the time


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
If its true that the Salamnder Chapter Tactics allow Armor Pen. Re-rolls for melta, Looks like Salamander may once again be one of the top SM builds.

rerolling meltas isnt nearly as good as ultramarines rerolling just about everything.

I must have missed the post where we learned the grav gun's stats.

I said ONE of the top builds, not THE top build...

No new pictures. Sad panda.

Enjoying the rules rumors discussion, though. Hopeful for a smoother WS bike army.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 SickSix wrote:

(Is it possible for White Scars to run an all bike army) Yes but you have to take 2 captains so you can get two bike squads to be troops.

This is total crap. So WS players have their entire collection invalidated (those that did build bike armies). So now they will have to run CA to run a 'fluffy' army.

Having to add in an extra HQ doesn't invalidate your entire colection. It just requires a re-jig of your army list. Something that pretty much everyone has to do every single time any codex is revised.

Wrong. I have 7 units of Bikes. They could be fielded legally in the current book. You can get at most 5 in the new Codex, and requires me going and making another Captain to do so. Are you telling me that the money and effort I put on those 20 Bikes is no reason for me to be pissed off about this?

How is it wrong? The post I was responding to claimed that his entire collection was 'invalidated' by having to add a Captain. In your case, you had 7 squads of bikes, now you will have 5. That's certainly not an 'entire colection' invalidated.

As for that being sufficient reason to be pissed off about it... If you built them last week, sure. If you have been using this army for any length of time, well, you built them for a purpose, and you used them for that purpose. Editions come and go. If you choose to switch to the new edition (and that is by no means compulsory) then you just have to accept that your army will need to change. Because that's what happens every time a codex is revised, or the core rules change. If that's something that enrages you, you're possibly playing the wrong game.

Don't forget the bike command squads...

If the rumours are true, I'm seeing a White Scars force as being the following:

2 Captains
2 Command squads (5 bikes apiece)
2 9-man bike squads as troops
1 9-man bike squad as FA

This still leaves you with 2 FA slots left for more bikes, speeders, attack bikes and the like, and you've got 34 bikes, 3 attack bikes and 2 bike characters in your list. You could add another 16 bikes and 2 attack bikes at the cost of your last FA slots as well for a total of 57 bikes. At that point you've got to be approaching the 2k mark and another FoC. Those bikes will also be significantly tougher and nastier than they were before...

In addition I'm seeing the LSS as a dedicated transport being a great boon for the WS, as it feels like a great way to add more troops cheaply while fitting the theme of the force.

I'm thinking that the following would be reasonable for somewhere between 1.5 and 2 k:

- 2 bike captains
- 1 biker command squad
- 2 full bike squads as troops
- Sniper scout unit
- Assault scout unit in a LSS
- Land speeders, attack bikes, scout bikes or just more bike squads to taste
- Support tanks (Whirlwind, AA tanks?)

It's not ideal but it is doable, and of course there's the very strong possibility of this changing again with a White Scars mini-dex.

Crazyterran wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
If its true that the Salamnder Chapter Tactics allow Armor Pen. Re-rolls for melta, Looks like Salamander may once again be one of the top SM builds.

How often do you need to reroll armor pens for Meltas.

You have no idea how often you dearly wish you could. And I'm the one on the receiving end, when I see someone failing pen my armor 1'' away, even I feel bad.

Tigurius at 165?

That is sooo wrong but it feels so right. I want. Him and Pedro, load those sternguard into a stormraven, take biomancer powers, reroll until you get power 2, 3, and 4 (or 1), and then enjoy relentless special ammo bolters, IWND, FNP, the enemy they're charging is at minus 1 str and toughness, and you either get high str force attacks and EW on tigurius, or shots that give us wounds back.

So very right.

 Hedgehog wrote:
If the rumours are true, I'm seeing a White Scars force as being the following:

2 Captains
2 Command squads (5 bikes apiece)
2 9-man bike squads as troops
1 9-man bike squad as FA

This is impossible as each Captain only allows you to take up to 5 Bikes as a Troops choice.

 insaniak wrote:
Because that's what happens every time a codex is revised, or the core rules change.

You obviously don't understand the difference between making a choice of your own free will because your unit got nerfed (what happens every time a Codex is revised) and been forced to shelf hundreds of euros worth of your models with no choice at all (something that rarely happens with an update, but is happening here). You can choice to use a sub-par unit if you want, however I imagine 99% of opponents would have qualms about me using illegal models.

Wow if any of what I just read is true space marines just got serious. Any codex not written in 6th ed. Is not going to even be playable now...

rothrich wrote:
Wow if any of what I just read is true space marines just got serious. Any codex not written in 6th ed. Is not going to even be playable now...

To be fair, BA have been unplayable since 6th first came out anyway...

rothrich wrote:
Wow if any of what I just read is true space marines just got serious. Any codex not written in 6th ed. Is not going to even be playable now...

Tyranids will still be fine. And then they'll get gooder soon enough.

 Exergy wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Pretty sure tyranid MCs care much less about these graviton weapons compared to the dreadknight and riptide...there are a lot more bugs and they're a lot sturdier.

Finding the right mix of graviton to plasma is going to be the key.

from what I have seen of the grav guns they are salvo(other than the pistol)
3 shots from the gun or 5 shots from the cannon would be nastier than most plasma which is limited to 2 shots.

Of course the grav gun will suffer like most salvo weapons. When you move it becomes completely useless.

Yes and the "Grav Cannons" are on Centruions, witch are S&P

yes my point, so 5 twinlinked shots that wound on 2,3+?

Say you have 3 centurians firing at a riptide
13.33 hits
11.11 wounds
7.40 wounds after the 5++
dread riptide

or against a stock wraithknight
13.33 hits
8.66 wounds
dead wraithknight

Firing at a vehicle isnt that great though.
13.33 hits
2.221 imobilized and hull points stripped.

It is nice that you can get imobilized but it wont kill that LR demolisher that is about to smash your centurians.

I just have to point out that they don't get twin linked grav cannons, they get a grav cannon and a grav amp which lets them re roll failed wounds.

40k Radio wrote:Q: Has auxillary grenade launcher changed?
A: 24" rapid fire.

My captain is very happy.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
You can say this over and over until you are blue in the face, but it is still an incorrect statement. What happens every time a Codex is revised is some units get nerfed and people make a choice of their own free will to dump those units and take something else.

With the change from 2nd edition to 3rd, my Tarantulas and Mole Mortars all became unusable.
With the change from 3rd to 4th, Lasplas Razorbacks were suddenly not an option, and everyone running Chapter Approved Chapters found themselves with illegal lists.
With the change from 4th to 5th, my Marine army that included Apothecaries in every squad was suddenly illegal.

That's just the ones straight off the top of my head. I'm fairly sure there are more that I'm not remembering right now due to insufficient sleep and/or coffee...

This is not even close to the White Scars predicament, as there is no choice been given to players with an old army by GW.

Sure there is. Keep using the current codex, or put those extra squads aside for bigger games. Or, as someone else posted, look at running them as Command Squads instead.

Get the difference between nerfed and invalidated, get the difference between choice and no choice, then we can talk. If you can't see the difference between the two then we've nothing left to talk about. Then again it's easy to say such things when it's not your money left to gather dust on the shelf.

I've been playing this game since 1994. My Marine army has changed significant;y in every single edition so far. I expect it to change significantly in every edition to come.

 Exergy wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Pretty sure tyranid MCs care much less about these graviton weapons compared to the dreadknight and riptide...there are a lot more bugs and they're a lot sturdier.

Finding the right mix of graviton to plasma is going to be the key.

from what I have seen of the grav guns they are salvo(other than the pistol)
3 shots from the gun or 5 shots from the cannon would be nastier than most plasma which is limited to 2 shots.

Of course the grav gun will suffer like most salvo weapons. When you move it becomes completely useless.

Yes and the "Grav Cannons" are on Centruions, witch are S&P

yes my point, so 5 twinlinked shots that wound on 2,3+?

Say you have 3 centurians firing at a riptide
13.33 hits
11.11 wounds
7.40 wounds after the 5++
dread riptide

or against a stock wraithknight
13.33 hits
8.66 wounds
dead wraithknight

Firing at a vehicle isnt that great though.
13.33 hits
2.221 imobilized and hull points stripped.

It is nice that you can get imobilized but it wont kill that LR demolisher that is about to smash your centurians.

Well first of all presuming that they would get 5 TL AP2 shots that wound on 2's each is very optimistic and second of all, I'd like you to know how many times the price of a Riptide that would cost, the range of those weapons (36'' or bust basically) and the fact that they're crap at shooting anything else, while being extremely vulnerable to return fire as Riptides get S8 AP2 pie plates and they have no invulnerable. So either sit in cover you have to invest many points into, go to ground or sit in a convenient building you won't always have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
If its true that the Salamnder Chapter Tactics allow Armor Pen. Re-rolls for melta, Looks like Salamander may once again be one of the top SM builds.

Pfft you mean the worst.

Vehicles are rarely seen in this edition anyway and a melta unit is crap at anything else. Riptide? You dun goofed.

Plasma (and if the hype is true, Grav) is the name of the game in 6th. I'd just take a set of Tri-Las Predators over a clumsily implemented melta drop pod squad anyday. That way I can still kill a Riptide a turn and handle optimistic vehicle users and MC's with equal measure.

In addition, flamer weapons are unreliable, require you to get close and only really come into their own against GEQ. In an all comers list you will not see flamers unless they are absurdly cheap and in a drop pod - and if they're the only part of your army that truly benefits from the trait, you won't take it.


I predict the best Chapter Tactics will be Raven Guard for stealth abuse, Iron Hands for the FNP buff and the Ultramarines Tactical/Devastator ones for the massive Tactical buff and footslogging Devastators.

Imperial Fists get the gutter end because the Tank Hunter aspect isn't anything to cheer about if your opponent doesn't field any, and in that case you've just got a weaker version of the UM Tactical buff, which gives you re-rolls on all ones.

If these rumours are even close to being true then I am glad to start a new allied detachment for my DA (well to be honest, I do already have a small detachment of Templars). My local FLGS is already getting ready for the release, and everyone is pretty excited (except the nids and chaos players, but the nids guys will be happy soon too).

 insaniak wrote:
With the change from 2nd edition to 3rd, my Tarantulas and Mole Mortars all became unusable.
With the change from 3rd to 4th, Lasplas Razorbacks were suddenly not an option, and everyone running Chapter Approved Chapters found themselves with illegal lists.
With the change from 4th to 5th, my Marine army that included Apothecaries in every squad was suddenly illegal.

That's just the ones straight off the top of my head. I'm fairly sure there are more that I'm not remembering right now due to insufficient sleep and/or coffee...

 insaniak wrote:
I've been playing this game since 1994. My Marine army has changed significant;y in every single edition so far. I expect it to change significantly in every edition to come.

A few examples with a few more in reserves; that's fine but doesn't nearly equate to "what happens every time a Codex is revised" as you had stated previously.

And sure it has happened to you a few times, but that doesn't mean it was a good move by GW. If anything I sympathise with you more for having to deal with it more.

 insaniak wrote:
Sure there is. Keep using the current codex, or put those extra squads aside for bigger games.

You have to realize this is not an option for everybody, so isn't a very good solution IMO. Standard rules of the game say you use the most up to date Codex. It's great that you might be able to play with old dexes whenever you like, but people over here aren't the same.

 insaniak wrote:
Or, as someone else posted, look at running them as Command Squads instead.

This is one option I am looking at. Since there are about 3 pages between my initial post to you and your response above you probably missed the updated White Scars rumours and my musing on how they might make up for the loss we've suffered a good bit. I'm still super peeved at GW, but even if I complain about it here, in practice I'm going to get on with it and make a new list. We all need a platform to vent after all

Q: Have TH/SS termies gone up in price?
A: TH/SS Terminators cost +5 points

Was this really necessary with how easily they die now? Sadface....

Q: are drop pods still 12 to a pod?
A: Dop pod is back to 10.

This also gives me a sadface.

 Mr.Omega wrote:


Vehicles are rarely seen in this edition anyway and a melta unit is crap at anything else. Riptide? You dun goofed.

Plasma (and if the hype is true, Grav) is the name of the game in 6th. I'd just take a set of Tri-Las Predators over a clumsily implemented melta drop pod squad anyday. That way I can still kill a Riptide a turn and handle optimistic vehicle users and MC's with equal measure.

rarely see vehicles, but you are gong to take a set of preds...

Brother Weasel wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:


Vehicles are rarely seen in this edition anyway and a melta unit is crap at anything else. Riptide? You dun goofed.

Plasma (and if the hype is true, Grav) is the name of the game in 6th. I'd just take a set of Tri-Las Predators over a clumsily implemented melta drop pod squad anyday. That way I can still kill a Riptide a turn and handle optimistic vehicle users and MC's with equal measure.

rarely see vehicles, but you are gong to take a set of preds...

Was just about to post this

Brother Weasel wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:


Vehicles are rarely seen in this edition anyway and a melta unit is crap at anything else. Riptide? You dun goofed.

Plasma (and if the hype is true, Grav) is the name of the game in 6th. I'd just take a set of Tri-Las Predators over a clumsily implemented melta drop pod squad anyday. That way I can still kill a Riptide a turn and handle optimistic vehicle users and MC's with equal measure.

rarely see vehicles, but you are gong to take a set of preds...

A rare proposition, and they have a rare talent in this edition. You don't need re-rollable meltaguns to kill a 140 point Predator, and I'm only still considering taking them.

All the Tau players I've seen don't prefer to field vehicles, they'll keep with things like Riptides. Eldar will field Wave Serpents and Prisms maybe but tank hunters will make little difference at all as they have some weird rules that neuter AT weaponry. Mechanized Space Marine armies don't work and aren't seen anymore. Imperial Guard vehicle heavy armies are extremely rare and their side armor sucks.

I've gone to two tournaments over the last 3 months and played 8 games between them. They were:

War of the Roses Tournament with the ETC team, 1850 points:

1) Tyranid MC spam Nids
2) Blood Angels assault marine list. He brought no ground vehicles.
3) A CSM Nurgle list with two Rhinos. He didn't come back for day 2 and I wiped the floor with him.
4) A C:SM Flyer circus with no ground vehicles
5) A CSM list with one badly implemented Mauler Fiend and two MC's forming the brunt, safe to say he did poorly

The only vehicle spam army was the guy playing Dark Eldar and I'm unsure how well he did, all I know is he didn't win - that was the Codex Daemons flying circus.

Tournament 2, 1250 points doubles, Warhammer World:
1) Double Riptide Tau and Dreadnought drop pod abuse Marines. They won against us but lost their other two matches, and when we played our third match up against some pleasant blokes they remarked about how they were blatantly cheating, although we didn't notice it ourselves.
2) Fortress of Redemption Marines plus IG. They holed up inside it and sent forth Vendettas. Their only land vehicle was a Land Speeder. They weren't playing competitively and didn't do great overall.
3) Eldar with no vehicles bar a flyer.

*The team, 'Tanks R Us' who won the 1500 Doubles Tournament with land slide victories back in 5th came back and won one, lost one and drawed one. They were practically the only army abusing vehicle spam at the entire event.

neconn av 13 spam,
Preds, (vanilla and BA)
land raiders (yes there are people who take them)


Probably mostly depends on who or where you play. I will see lots of armor, because people in my area like armor...

But i found the comment funny...

Brother Weasel wrote:
neconn av 13 spam,
Preds, (vanilla and BA)
land raiders (yes there are people who take them)


Probably mostly depends on who or where you play. I will see lots of armor, because people in my area like armor...

But i found the comment funny...

Vehicle Spam is one of the few builds still decent for BA

Any decent IG player has a ton of tanks and would be hard pressed NOT to field at least a few

Flyers, flyers, flyers.

Land Raiders have been in many lists now ever since Heldrakes became common, and Broadsides got nerfed.

So, if I'm getting this right, a Vulkan army will basically reroll failed hit, wound and armor pens rolls with all of its meaningful special/heavy weapons? Ultramarines can make all their tac squads twin link their weapons and "1.5-link" everything else, on top of what appears to be blanket price cuts?

That sounds...like a bad internet fandex. I guess we'll have to see how it ultimately turns out, but if these look to be true, I certainly wouldn't see a reason to use C:CSM unless playing a dedicated Cult Legion army

 Vaktathi wrote:
So, if I'm getting this right, a Vulkan army will basically reroll failed hit, wound and armor pens rolls with all of its meaningful special/heavy weapons? Ultramarines can make all their tac squads twin link their weapons and "1.5-link" everything else, on top of what appears to be blanket price cuts?

That sounds...like a bad internet fandex. I guess we'll have to see how it ultimately turns out, but if these look to be true, I certainly wouldn't see a reason to use C:CSM unless playing a dedicated Cult Legion army

Well at the moment C:SM sucks and has done since at least Christmas, and universal MEQ based armies are stuck at the bottom of the toilet and almost unplayable in many occassions. If Crudhead actually has the balls to pull rules like this out of his arse then I'll be pleased.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

You obviously don't understand the difference between making a choice of your own free will because your unit got nerfed (what happens every time a Codex is revised) and been forced to shelf hundreds of euros worth of your models with no choice at all (something that rarely happens with an update, but is happening here).

You have a choice... you simply don't want to go through with the effort. That IS your choice but don't claim that you're not making one. If you've only got a Khan mini for a captain, all it takes to make your army legal is to buy a single bike squadron and make 3 more captains from your left over bits so you can field over 100 bikes on two force orgs. That's a hell of alot cheaper than shelving your "hundred euros" of figures. No one is claiming that its a perfect or even optimal choice but you're treating it as if GW said you simply can't field more than 5 bikes in an army.

 Exergy wrote:
Firing at a vehicle isnt that great though.
13.33 hits
2.221 imobilized and hull points stripped.

It is nice that you can get imobilized but it wont kill that LR demolisher that is about to smash your centurians.

Supposedly, the Grav Cannon isn't twin-linked. Instead, Centurions get a Grav Cannon and a Grav Amp in their package. If I recall, the Grav Amp allows you to reroll damage, not hits. I don't remember where I saw that rumor, but it was around the time the Centurions appeared. So three Centurions are getting ten hits on average, with 1.667 potential immobilized/hull point lost results. I'm too lazy to do the math on the rerolls, but on average, the Centurions should be shaving off about 3 hull points a turn, right?

If that's not bad enough, depending on the wording of the Grav effect, it could be even worse. If it's true that each 6 when rolling for damage produces an immobilized result and removes a hull point, then each hit after the first is knocking off two--one from the effect itself and one because each immobilized result after the first knocks one off too. So, with average rolls, Centurions can take out a Land Raider, and with worse than average rolls, a Russ.

That is, of course, if the Grav Amp allows rerolls for damage and if the Grav Weapon effect is worded in such a way as to not preclude stripping two hull points with each hit.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
So, if I'm getting this right, a Vulkan army will basically reroll failed hit, wound and armor pens rolls with all of its meaningful special/heavy weapons? Ultramarines can make all their tac squads twin link their weapons and "1.5-link" everything else, on top of what appears to be blanket price cuts?

That sounds...like a bad internet fandex. I guess we'll have to see how it ultimately turns out, but if these look to be true, I certainly wouldn't see a reason to use C:CSM unless playing a dedicated Cult Legion army

Well at the moment C:SM sucks and has done since at least Christmas, and universal MEQ based armies are stuck at the bottom of the toilet and almost unplayable in many occassions. If Crudhead actually has the balls to pull rules like this out of his arse then I'll be pleased.

I haven't seen MEQ armies really being as bad as people say. That said, even accepting it as true, I'd rather not have the "MEQ comeback" be on the back of "rerolls for literally everything!".

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
A few examples with a few more in reserves; that's fine but doesn't nearly equate to "what happens every time a Codex is revised" as you had stated previously.

That's every time the Marine codex was revised. You'll have to excuse me if I don't recall every change to every codex since 2nd edition straight off the top of my head. Since the discussion was about Marines, I figured that pointing out the obvious changes to Marines specifically would make the point.

And sure it has happened to you a few times, but that doesn't mean it was a good move by GW. If anything I sympathise with you more for having to deal with it more.

My point wasn't that it's a good move, just that it should be expected since it's pretty much par for the course where GW are concerned, so really not worth getting worked up about. Either accept that it will happen, or find a less aggravating game to play instead. Unless of course you prefer to stick with a hobby that makes you angry. I don't know, some people might want that from their hobbies, and who am I to judge...?

 insaniak wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
You can say this over and over until you are blue in the face, but it is still an incorrect statement. What happens every time a Codex is revised is some units get nerfed and people make a choice of their own free will to dump those units and take something else.

With the change from 2nd edition to 3rd, my Tarantulas and Mole Mortars all became unusable.
With the change from 3rd to 4th, Lasplas Razorbacks were suddenly not an option, and everyone running Chapter Approved Chapters found themselves with illegal lists.
With the change from 4th to 5th, my Marine army that included Apothecaries in every squad was suddenly illegal.

That's just the ones straight off the top of my head. I'm fairly sure there are more that I'm not remembering right now due to insufficient sleep and/or coffee...

This is not even close to the White Scars predicament, as there is no choice been given to players with an old army by GW.

Sure there is. Keep using the current codex, or put those extra squads aside for bigger games. Or, as someone else posted, look at running them as Command Squads instead.

Get the difference between nerfed and invalidated, get the difference between choice and no choice, then we can talk. If you can't see the difference between the two then we've nothing left to talk about. Then again it's easy to say such things when it's not your money left to gather dust on the shelf.

I've been playing this game since 1994. My Marine army has changed significant;y in every single edition so far. I expect it to change significantly in every edition to come.

With the change from 4th to 5th my 6 Devastator Squad army was gone. I really didn't need 6 squads anymore. I lost the ability to take 2x Special Weapons via Cleans and Purge so my Rhino Rush/Drop Pod bomb list using Tac squads with double special weapons and 4 librarians 2 HQ 2 Add ons to Command Squads in DP with 4 Fear of the Darkness powers was gone too. Completely gone. I no longer needed 4 Librarian models... You're right the list does go on and on and on.

I remember wondering what became of the thousands of excess Carnifexs after the Fexzilla book was updated.

Of course, when you pop a Land Raider, it usually disgorges high value targets in PA or TDA, which will be forced to advance on foot and be torn limb from limb by the Devastator Centurions next turn. If they do decide to advance, the meatshield 1W types will be murderered outright, and there's a good chance that any bosses in the group will be severely weakened, possibly to the point of having to fend off an assault with their initiative reduced to 1.

Yikes.

It's almost like Centurions with Grav Cannons were designed to open Land Raiders like tin cans and gib their helpless and frightened occupants.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
You can say this over and over until you are blue in the face, but it is still an incorrect statement. What happens every time a Codex is revised is some units get nerfed and people make a choice of their own free will to dump those units and take something else.

With the change from 2nd edition to 3rd, my Tarantulas and Mole Mortars all became unusable.
With the change from 3rd to 4th, Lasplas Razorbacks were suddenly not an option, and everyone running Chapter Approved Chapters found themselves with illegal lists.
With the change from 4th to 5th, my Marine army that included Apothecaries in every squad was suddenly illegal.

That's just the ones straight off the top of my head. I'm fairly sure there are more that I'm not remembering right now due to insufficient sleep and/or coffee...

This is not even close to the White Scars predicament, as there is no choice been given to players with an old army by GW.

Sure there is. Keep using the current codex, or put those extra squads aside for bigger games. Or, as someone else posted, look at running them as Command Squads instead.

Get the difference between nerfed and invalidated, get the difference between choice and no choice, then we can talk. If you can't see the difference between the two then we've nothing left to talk about. Then again it's easy to say such things when it's not your money left to gather dust on the shelf.

I've been playing this game since 1994. My Marine army has changed significant;y in every single edition so far. I expect it to change significantly in every edition to come.

With the change from 4th to 5th my 6 Devastator Squad army was gone. I really didn't need 6 squads anymore. I lost the ability to take 2x Special Weapons via Cleans and Purge so my Rhino Rush/Drop Pod bomb list using Tac squads with double special weapons and 4 librarians 2 HQ 2 Add ons to Command Squads in DP with 4 Fear of the Darkness powers was gone too. Completely gone. I no longer needed 4 Librarian models... You're right the list does go on and on and on.

It is one of the harsh realities of GW. They are a business and part of that business includes releasing new lists and rules that force you to buy more of their stuff. I don't have to like it, but I accept it.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

rothrich wrote:
Wow if any of what I just read is true space marines just got serious. Any codex not written in 6th ed. Is not going to even be playable now...

To be fair, BA have been unplayable since 6th first came out anyway...

Yea... it's certainly been a challenge. Most of my list has moved over to shooting units for the time being.

I'm So thrilled at the idea of being looked at as a filthy bandwagonner where I've been playing my marines for years ...

 Eldarain wrote:
I remember wondering what became of the thousands of excess Carnifexs after the Fexzilla book was updated.

My friend who played during the switch says Ebay was literally swarmed with them...

 B0B MaRlEy wrote:
I'm So thrilled at the idea of being looked at as a filthy bandwagonner where I've been playing my marines for years ...

I know how you feel
Space Wolves since 1989
Dark Angels Since 2002?
The last time I went to a Game Store before I could even unpack my Spave Wolves I was getting "Bandwagon, WAAC and Cheese".

I'm going bet that a Captain on a Bike unlocks all 5 man bike squads. Pretty sure who ever had the dex posted "a 5 man squad" meaning at least 5 not 3 man (just like it is now). We've read into it "just a 5 man squad".

Poopoo it. The only thing that bothers me is that "I told you so" doesn't satisfy as much a month later.

 B0B MaRlEy wrote:
I'm So thrilled at the idea of being looked at as a filthy bandwagonner where I've been playing my marines for years ...

If the sallies rumors turn out to be correct (chapter tactics+Vulkan=reroll all failed hits, wounds, armor pen with all flamers/meltas), I'm certainly fully expecting a repeat of the last codex, where very C:SM army I faced until the SW book came out was a Vulkan army. UM's with twin link/half-link everything look possible too. I resisted bandwagoning my CSM's during 5th, never could bring myself to do it, but damn it looks like there really won't be much of any reason not to if these rumors hold out

 Vaktathi wrote:

 B0B MaRlEy wrote:
I'm So thrilled at the idea of being looked at as a filthy bandwagonner where I've been playing my marines for years ...

If the sallies rumors turn out to be correct (chapter tactics+Vulkan=reroll all failed hits, wounds, armor pen with all flamers/meltas), I'm certainly fully expecting a repeat of the last codex, where very C:SM army I faced until the SW book came out was a Vulkan army. UM's with twin link/half-link everything look possible too. I resisted bandwagoning my CSM's during 5th, never could bring myself to do it, but damn it looks like there really won't be much of any reason not to if these rumors hold out

Given how much hate UM gets, do people even play them anymore? I have seen a ton of Vanilla SM armies, but only 1 was UM, and that was from a player that just started playing. I also haven't seem many Vulcan lists, but I started early 2011 so I guess that bandwagon was over by then...

 warboss wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

You obviously don't understand the difference between making a choice of your own free will because your unit got nerfed (what happens every time a Codex is revised) and been forced to shelf hundreds of euros worth of your models with no choice at all (something that rarely happens with an update, but is happening here).

You have a choice... you simply don't want to go through with the effort. That IS your choice but don't claim that you're not making one. If you've only got a Khan mini for a captain, all it takes to make your army legal is to buy a single bike squadron and make 3 more captains from your left over bits so you can field over 100 bikes on two force orgs. That's a hell of alot cheaper than shelving your "hundred euros" of figures. No one is claiming that its a perfect or even optimal choice but you're treating it as if GW said you simply can't field more than 5 bikes in an army.

Damn. Really really hoping captain + 1 bike squad is incorrect. Surely 2 via the general FOC rules of 2 troops min would be more sensical? Not looking forward to rush building and painting tactical squads so I can play legal games..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lobukia wrote:
I'm going bet that a Captain on a Bike unlocks all 5 man bike squads. Pretty sure who ever had the dex posted "a 5 man squad" meaning at least 5 not 3 man (just like it is now). We've read into it "just a 5 man squad".

Poopoo it. The only thing that bothers me is that "I told you so" doesn't satisfy as much a month later.

Fingers crossed!

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Given how much hate UM gets, do people even play them anymore? I have seen a ton of Vanilla SM armies, but only 1 was UM, and that was from a player that just started playing. I also haven't seem many Vulcan lists, but I started early 2011 so I guess that bandwagon was over by then...

Quite a lot of people play Ultramarines, yes. Despite all the bizarre complaints about them on the internet, out in the real world they're generally not as badly regarded.

Any info on how many W the fatties might get?

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 B0B MaRlEy wrote:
I'm So thrilled at the idea of being looked at as a filthy bandwagonner where I've been playing my marines for years ...

If the sallies rumors turn out to be correct (chapter tactics+Vulkan=reroll all failed hits, wounds, armor pen with all flamers/meltas), I'm certainly fully expecting a repeat of the last codex, where very C:SM army I faced until the SW book came out was a Vulkan army. UM's with twin link/half-link everything look possible too. I resisted bandwagoning my CSM's during 5th, never could bring myself to do it, but damn it looks like there really won't be much of any reason not to if these rumors hold out

Given how much hate UM gets, do people even play them anymore? I have seen a ton of Vanilla SM armies, but only 1 was UM, and that was from a player that just started playing. I also haven't seem many Vulcan lists, but I started early 2011 so I guess that bandwagon was over by then...

Yes. I have my Void Eagles, which are vanilla Marines (Ultramarines) and they are rightly feared. I have (so, so many....) Black Templars, which I played for 7 years and won with...a handful of times (but had fun). I have my Void Angels, which are Blood Angels - and only have not discovered the alleged horror of them in 6th because I have been busy playing my Necrons for the first time, mostly.

Truth to tell, the Void Eagles (all beaky!) are among the hardiest and most fun of my armies.

Well I don't think anyone in my local group will accuse me of bandwagoning since I have stuck with my SilverSkulls (C:SM) even after Tau came out and I have sizeable Tau army boxed up. I haven't won a game with my SM in nearly two years LOL.

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Lockark wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Lockark wrote:
I just read the rumors on BOLS about how the new chapter tactics work.

As a CSM player I'm VERY butt hurt that chaos legions didn't get a similar rule... I guess I got to wait for a Emperor's children or Iron Warrioir codex supplement. But even that makes me butt hurt that I have to buy a supplement well loyalists get all their rules in a single book.

Don't be so quick to lament, at least you guys will still be able to get away with proxying whatever the hell you like to replace your crappy rules, I can already imagine the bollocks players of certain Chapters who got crappy rules in this 'dex are going to deal with if they try proxying.

I played with that damned 4th ed csm dex all 5th and never proxied a loyalist dex despite the fact everyone told me I might as well. I'd rather not start now.

I would of rather got a half decent dex in the 1st place.

also so far from what I read it sounds like all of the chapters got prety good rules. The ultramarien's choose one of three at the beginning kinda feels clearly the best of the lot, but none of them read as crappy to me.

The CSM book is more than half decent in my eyes regardless what people tell me. I haven't seen a codex come out yet for 6th I would call "bad". The fact is that GW has been changing the books to have less "I WIN" buttons and that's great. All the books have options but nothing is a self-supporting monster that can win the game for you on it's own (except MAYBE the Heldrake, but that's more of a case of just taking 3 of them), and I think people are missing that.

Frankly I'm tired of hearing people sell their book short because they don't want to move away from the easiest to use units in the book. Yes, some units need more support than others, or have very specific roles in what they do, but I still don't see anything I'd say is "useless". In my mind it's all a matter of play style and a willingness to experiment, not the "I Win" units that truly makes a book good or bad for any one person.

I could care less about i win buttons. I just wanted rules to repersent my csm legions. I'm butt hurt loyalist got thows options and we didn't.

 warboss wrote:
You have a choice... you simply don't want to go through with the effort. That IS your choice but don't claim that you're not making one. If you've only got a Khan mini for a captain, all it takes to make your army legal is to buy a single bike squadron and make 3 more captains from your left over bits so you can field over 100 bikes on two force orgs. That's a hell of alot cheaper than shelving your "hundred euros" of figures. No one is claiming that its a perfect or even optimal choice but you're treating it as if GW said you simply can't field more than 5 bikes in an army.

What choice is that? What effort is that? I'm not treating it like GW is telling me I can't field more than 5 Bikes in an army, I'm saying that GW have come along and made it impossible for me to field my current legal list under the new book at all.

We don't play 2k+ around here, so tell me, how do I take the Captain, 50 Bikes, and 2 Storm Talons from my current army and put all of that into a legal army in the new book? If I get a second Captain I can have two 5 man squads of Bikes as Troops and then I have to fit the other 40 and 2 Talons into Fast somehow. That's not possible, plain and simple.

Like I've said several times, I'll get over it and get on with a new list, I would just appreciate if people stopped telling me I can use all my models with a little effort, because the simple fact is I can't.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Just saw the Centurion rules, T5, 2+, NO ++ save, 60 pts each basic.

Its official, centurions are the new Mutilators...

Except Mutilators have invulnerable saves.. lol. Of course they both suffer from ugly as Please don't try and bypass the swear filter like this. Thanks. Reds8n model syndrome.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwyidion wrote:
Tigurius makes me urpy. Looks like 5 points less than Eldar's generic farseer + Autarch without upgrades, but tougher, meaner in combat, much better psyker, better reserves manip.

Just - why?

GW loves them some Space Marines... Just kidding. I think it's crap too. /sigh

 Lockark wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Lockark wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Lockark wrote:
I just read the rumors on BOLS about how the new chapter tactics work.

As a CSM player I'm VERY butt hurt that chaos legions didn't get a similar rule... I guess I got to wait for a Emperor's children or Iron Warrioir codex supplement. But even that makes me butt hurt that I have to buy a supplement well loyalists get all their rules in a single book.

Don't be so quick to lament, at least you guys will still be able to get away with proxying whatever the hell you like to replace your crappy rules, I can already imagine the bollocks players of certain Chapters who got crappy rules in this 'dex are going to deal with if they try proxying.

I played with that damned 4th ed csm dex all 5th and never proxied a loyalist dex despite the fact everyone told me I might as well. I'd rather not start now.

I would of rather got a half decent dex in the 1st place.

also so far from what I read it sounds like all of the chapters got prety good rules. The ultramarien's choose one of three at the beginning kinda feels clearly the best of the lot, but none of them read as crappy to me.

The CSM book is more than half decent in my eyes regardless what people tell me. I haven't seen a codex come out yet for 6th I would call "bad". The fact is that GW has been changing the books to have less "I WIN" buttons and that's great. All the books have options but nothing is a self-supporting monster that can win the game for you on it's own (except MAYBE the Heldrake, but that's more of a case of just taking 3 of them), and I think people are missing that.

Frankly I'm tired of hearing people sell their book short because they don't want to move away from the easiest to use units in the book. Yes, some units need more support than others, or have very specific roles in what they do, but I still don't see anything I'd say is "useless". In my mind it's all a matter of play style and a willingness to experiment, not the "I Win" units that truly makes a book good or bad for any one person.

I could care less about i win buttons. I just wanted rules to repersent my csm legions. I'm butt hurt loyalist got thows options and we didn't.

Very much the same.

 Lobukia wrote:
I'm going bet that a Captain on a Bike unlocks all 5 man bike squads. Pretty sure who ever had the dex posted "a 5 man squad" meaning at least 5 not 3 man (just like it is now). We've read into it "just a 5 man squad".

Just saw your post now. This is a very good point and could make the whole thing mostly a moot point after all as you could just Combat Squad to get more than two squads. I really hope you are right; I don't think losing the extra Attack Bikes is such a big deal, so fingers crossed; you give me hope mate

Out of curiosity since I mentioned it anyway, how does Combat Squads work for Bikes? Do you actually need 10 models or does the Attack Bike count as two? I am starting to get some ideas, but would depend on how this works, as admittedly I've never even considered doing it with the current list.

 Lobukia wrote:
I'm going bet that a Captain on a Bike unlocks all 5 man bike squads. Pretty sure who ever had the dex posted "a 5 man squad" meaning at least 5 not 3 man (just like it is now). We've read into it "just a 5 man squad".

Poopoo it. The only thing that bothers me is that "I told you so" doesn't satisfy as much a month later.

40k Radio has been posting this stuff on their Facebook. They later mentioned (when asked) that the bike squads as troops are 3-5 man squads, and one of them can be upgraded to an Attack Bike.

If this last round of rumors is true, C:SM is pretty much Codex: We Get Everything.

-Power Fists without that annoying I1 deal.
-Twin-linking shooting almost across the board.
-Beastly powerful HQs and amazing army-wide rules.
-FOC-swapping like nothing ever seen before.
-Salamanders safely re-rolling everything that matters. Including saves!
-Ultramarines charging longer and better than Khorne Berserkers, for free.
-Graviton Weapons: You tools fool around with fussy plasmaguns. Our AP2 weapons ruin your initiative.
-Devastators going relentless all over with a doctrine? And they said Long Fangs couldn't be topped....
-Tigurius wiping his behind with Eldrad and Ahriman combined. All disciplines, picking and choosing powers, re-rolling all the time.
-Chapter Masters all having 4 attacks and 4 wounds... as many as a daemon prince the size of a Dread. Makes sense.
-Basic marine going for 14 points. Nice to know that ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics go for half a point each.

So for all those who thumbed their nose at those who complained when the CSM book came out that "You can't do lots of variation and different armies with one book!! It'd be a return to the dark days of 3.5!!", well, there you go.

It does look like a good book on the basics, even if some stuff seems way too strong. Pretty much throws the CSM, DA and CD books in the garbage and makes SM/Tau the new IG/GK cheesemonger combo.

Weird... double post that didn't amend. Well might as well use the space. Can HQ ICs all still take bikes?

Anyone notice this picture on the GW page?



That looks like the new commander standing next to the banner bearer. And those tac marines look different too.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
According to B&C, Salamaders get re-rolls for both flame AND melta weapons. Might be too OP if true, coupled with Vulkan making Meltas MC, that means any tank that gets in Melta-Range it all but guaranteed to get popped.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Exergy wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Just saw the Centurion rules, T5, 2+, NO ++ save, 60 pts each basic.

Its official, centurions are the new Mutilators...

with twinlinked flamers, ATSKNF, str9 ap2 armor bane at init, and grenades they are both cheaper than mutilators(61 points with MoN) and considerably better.

the shooting versions look better than obliterators too.

I was mostly talking about the shooty ones, but the assault ones also have Slow and Purposeful, and apparently cant deep strike (B&C dont say), which means you NEED a LR to get them anywhere. Thats at least 440 pts right there. You might as well just take hammernators, roughly the same price and since they have a ++ and Centurions don't, are much more survivable.

For all of those that have seen the rules for Centurions, how many wounds do they have? This will make or break the unit for me. I see no use for a 60+ point model without an invulnerable save and only 1 wound.

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
I'm going bet that a Captain on a Bike unlocks all 5 man bike squads. Pretty sure who ever had the dex posted "a 5 man squad" meaning at least 5 not 3 man (just like it is now). We've read into it "just a 5 man squad".

Poopoo it. The only thing that bothers me is that "I told you so" doesn't satisfy as much a month later.

40k Radio has been posting this stuff on their Facebook. They later mentioned (when asked) that the bike squads as troops are 3-5 man squads, and one of them can be upgraded to an Attack Bike.

So they're seeing a possible 6 bike squads as troops? I don't have Facebook, can't check.

 Sephyr wrote:
If this last round of rumors is true, C:SM is pretty much Codex: We Get Everything.

-Power Fists without that annoying I1 deal.

On one unit.

-Twin-linking shooting almost across the board.

If you take that trait.

-Beastly powerful HQs and amazing army-wide rules.

HQs that are generally still marines without EW. Army wide rules are nice.

-FOC-swapping like nothing ever seen before.

What, potentially one unit of 5 bikes per bike captain, and nothing else rumored? I guess Crowe making purifiers troops, Draigo making Paladins troops, Grimnar making Wolf Guard troops, Chaos Lords making cult units troops are all in awe of Captain McAwesome and his five man biker gang.

-Salamanders safely re-rolling everything that matters. Including saves!

rerolling saves vs flamers. If the Baleflamer gave them one. Rerolling nothing still gets you, lets see, carry the nothing, that's it, nothing. And Vulkan giving salamandersrerolls of flamers and meltas has been around since 2008.

-Ultramarines charging longer and better than Khorne Berserkers, for free.

Not if you want to twin link all your weapons. And khorne berzerkers have rather more attacks and WS than your average ultramarine

-Graviton Weapons: You tools fool around with fussy plasmaguns. Our AP2 weapons ruin your initiative.

with less range, less effectiveness against low and mid save models, and against light vehicles.

-Devastators going relentless all over with a doctrine? And they said Long Fangs couldn't be topped....

Not if you want to twin link everything or charge "better than Khorne Berzerkers"

-Tigurius wiping his behind with Eldrad and Ahriman combined. All disciplines, picking and choosing powers, re-rolling all the time.

With less wounds and less mastery level

-Chapter Masters all having 4 attacks and 4 wounds... as many as a daemon prince the size of a Dread. Makes sense.

DP has +3 WS, +2S, +1T, +3I, +1A and Fearless and the MC bonuses over a Chapter master. Chapter master has +1 Ld, 3+ armor base, and +1 Inv base over the DP.

-Basic marine going for 14 points. Nice to know that ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics go for half a point each.

ATSKNF is still broken. Granted.

So for all those who thumbed their nose at those who complained when the CSM book came out that "You can't do lots of variation and different armies with one book!! It'd be a return to the dark days of 3.5!!", well, there you go.

It does look like a good book on the basics, even if some stuff seems way too strong. Pretty much throws the CSM, DA and CD books in the garbage and makes SM/Tau the new IG/GK cheesemonger combo.

 Lobukia wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
I'm going bet that a Captain on a Bike unlocks all 5 man bike squads. Pretty sure who ever had the dex posted "a 5 man squad" meaning at least 5 not 3 man (just like it is now). We've read into it "just a 5 man squad".

Poopoo it. The only thing that bothers me is that "I told you so" doesn't satisfy as much a month later.

40k Radio has been posting this stuff on their Facebook. They later mentioned (when asked) that the bike squads as troops are 3-5 man squads, and one of them can be upgraded to an Attack Bike.

So they're seeing a possible 6 bike squads as troops? I don't have Facebook, can't check.

5 bikes, one of which can be an Attack Bike instead.

MajorWesJanson wrote:

On one unit.

-Twin-linking shooting almost across the board.

If you take that trait.

-FOC-swapping like nothing ever seen before.

What, potentially one unit of 5 bikes per bike captain, and nothing else rumored? I guess Crowe making purifiers troops, Draigo making Paladins troops, Grimnar making Wolf Guard troops, Chaos Lords making cult units troops are all in awe of Captain McAwesome and his five man biker gang.

-Ultramarines charging longer and better than Khorne Berserkers, for free.

Not if you want to twin link all your weapons. And khorne berzerkers have rather more attacks and WS than your average ultramarine

-Devastators going relentless all over with a doctrine? And they said Long Fangs couldn't be topped....

Not if you want to twin link everything or charge "better than Khorne Berzerkers"

-Tigurius wiping his behind with Eldrad and Ahriman combined. All disciplines, picking and choosing powers, re-rolling all the time.

With less wounds and less mastery level
.

There's no way to make Sternguard Troops, only scoring, it's not the same. It's not new either. In fact the the abilities of C:SM to swap slots has been toned down since the 5th ed. book.

And you can switch traits before each game just as easily as you can swap what codex you are using.

It's a silly complaint.

Sounds to me that anything paired with this codex will break the meta, kinda like how Tau is supposedly the "meta changing" army yet this codex sounds even better. Virtually any AoC/BB will be much better off paired with this army (looking at you IG, Tau, and Eldar), maybe even achieve top tournament status!

Just thinking, mind you. The stat-line boost to the Chapter Master might warrant me using him again. I used to field him in every list i made, the S10 AP1 big blast sounded awesome, even won me a game; but 25 points for that was too much for me. Having a stat boost might warrant the premium. And here's to hoping to get something close to Blood Ravens Chapter tactics, just hope mind you