There has been something poking away at the back of my brain about how the Centurion's torso design seemed very familiar.
I finally realized what it was. The Centurion's torso design seems very reminiscent of Gears of War's "Silverback" mech, where the operator sits in the center and is surrounded by armor plating and operates the weapon arms remotely.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: According to B&C, Salamaders get re-rolls for both flame AND melta weapons. Might be too OP if true, coupled with Vulkan making Meltas MC, that means any tank that gets in Melta-Range it all but guaranteed to get popped.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: Just saw the Centurion rules, T5, 2+, NO ++ save, 60 pts each basic.
Its official, centurions are the new Mutilators...
with twinlinked flamers, ATSKNF, str9 ap2 armor bane at init, and grenades they are both cheaper than mutilators(61 points with MoN) and considerably better.
the shooting versions look better than obliterators too.
I was mostly talking about the shooty ones, but the assault ones also have Slow and Purposeful, and apparently cant deep strike (B&C dont say), which means you NEED a LR to get them anywhere. Thats at least 440 pts right there. You might as well just take hammernators, roughly the same price and since they have a ++ and Centurions don't, are much more survivable.
For all of those that have seen the rules for Centurions, how many wounds do they have? This will make or break the unit for me. I see no use for a 60+ point model without an invulnerable save and only 1 wound.
ductvader wrote: Pretty sure tyranid MCs care much less about these graviton weapons compared to the dreadknight and riptide...there are a lot more bugs and they're a lot sturdier.
Finding the right mix of graviton to plasma is going to be the key.
from what I have seen of the grav guns they are salvo(other than the pistol)
3 shots from the gun or 5 shots from the cannon would be nastier than most plasma which is limited to 2 shots.
Of course the grav gun will suffer like most salvo weapons. When you move it becomes completely useless.
Yes and the "Grav Cannons" are on Centruions, witch are S&P
yes my point, so 5 twinlinked shots that wound on 2,3+?
Say you have 3 centurians firing at a riptide
13.33 hits
11.11 wounds
7.40 wounds after the 5++
dread riptide
or against a stock wraithknight
13.33 hits
8.66 wounds
dead wraithknight
Firing at a vehicle isnt that great though.
13.33 hits
2.221 imobilized and hull points stripped.
It is nice that you can get imobilized but it wont kill that LR demolisher that is about to smash your centurians.
Well first of all presuming that they would get 5 TL AP2 shots that wound on 2's each is very optimistic and second of all, I'd like you to know how many times the price of a Riptide that would cost, the range of those weapons (36'' or bust basically) and the fact that they're crap at shooting anything else, while being extremely vulnerable to return fire as Riptides get S8 AP2 pie plates and they have no invulnerable. So either sit in cover you have to invest many points into, go to ground or sit in a convenient building you won't always have.
I am assuming that 83% of the shots wound.
My stats are off it seems as it looks like they dont get TL Gravcannon but a Gravcannon and a gravamp, which rerolls to wound instead of rerolling to hit. Makes it 3 cents will do 6.41 wounds to a riptide
Still if you are ultramarines with the reroll 1s you are going to have even higher wounds.
The riptide can fire his ion accelerator, but with a direct hit he is likely only getting 2 under the template. 1.66 wounds, 1.11 if they didnt strip cover. That doesnt even kill one T5 guy. IH will have FNP and IWND to make them harder to kill.
And yes, 36" as in if the riptide is deployed on the table, even in the back then cents can deploy at the edge of their deployment zone and hit him without even moving unless you are playing hammer and anvil.
Looks like a centurian with a gravcannon is 75 points, so 3 will be 225(not that much more than a tide)
They counter riptides pretty hard. I dont think they are good enough to for TAC(they get screwed as often as not), but yes I would probably take them if I knew my opponent was running 3 riptides.
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praetor24 wrote: Do we know how many attacks do the Centurions have?
looks like 1 for the shooty type and 2 for the melee type. Not sure whether the melee type get 3 for having 2 weapons.
Was there word on if the transport capacity on the Razorback is still six? I'd be bummed if I lost a delivery method for a plasma-command squad with a Captain.
Strangely one of the Units I'm most excited for is the Chapter Master. +1W and +1A means he's finally worth considering in comparison to a Captain, and hopefully he'll be able to take wargear the captain can't.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: Strangely one of the Units I'm most excited for is the Chapter Master. +1W and +1A means he's finally worth considering in comparison to a Captain, and hopefully he'll be able to take wargear the captain can't.
I doubt he will get +1W, A and the bombardment for only 25points. Really depends on how it works out.
beigeknight wrote: Was there word on if the transport capacity on the Razorback is still six? I'd be bummed if I lost a delivery method for a plasma-command squad with a Captain.
Considering they're releasing a set of a Command Squad, Razorback and Plastic Chaplain, I'd say: yes.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: Strangely one of the Units I'm most excited for is the Chapter Master. +1W and +1A means he's finally worth considering in comparison to a Captain, and hopefully he'll be able to take wargear the captain can't.
I doubt he will get +1W, A and the bombardment for only 25points. Really depends on how it works out.
I'd have no problem if they removed Orbital Bombardment. I can't think of a single time I've ever seen it be effective.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: Strangely one of the Units I'm most excited for is the Chapter Master. +1W and +1A means he's finally worth considering in comparison to a Captain, and hopefully he'll be able to take wargear the captain can't.
I doubt he will get +1W, A and the bombardment for only 25points. Really depends on how it works out.
I'd have no problem if they removed Orbital Bombardment. I can't think of a single time I've ever seen it be effective.
I think they may do away with it. Dark angels didn't get it, not even Azreal.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: Strangely one of the Units I'm most excited for is the Chapter Master. +1W and +1A means he's finally worth considering in comparison to a Captain, and hopefully he'll be able to take wargear the captain can't.
I doubt he will get +1W, A and the bombardment for only 25points. Really depends on how it works out.
I'd have no problem if they removed Orbital Bombardment. I can't think of a single time I've ever seen it be effective.
I think they may do away with it. Dark angels didn't get it, not even Azreal.
Possibly, of course you comparing apples to oranges here.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: Strangely one of the Units I'm most excited for is the Chapter Master. +1W and +1A means he's finally worth considering in comparison to a Captain, and hopefully he'll be able to take wargear the captain can't.
I doubt he will get +1W, A and the bombardment for only 25points. Really depends on how it works out.
I'd have no problem if they removed Orbital Bombardment. I can't think of a single time I've ever seen it be effective.
I think they may do away with it. Dark angels didn't get it, not even Azreal.
I mean sure, it might not be there but I am just saying the extra wound and attack really depend on how much it costs.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: Strangely one of the Units I'm most excited for is the Chapter Master. +1W and +1A means he's finally worth considering in comparison to a Captain, and hopefully he'll be able to take wargear the captain can't.
I doubt he will get +1W, A and the bombardment for only 25points. Really depends on how it works out.
I'd have no problem if they removed Orbital Bombardment. I can't think of a single time I've ever seen it be effective.
I think they may do away with it. Dark angels didn't get it, not even Azreal.
I mean sure, it might not be there but I am just saying the extra wound and attack really depend on how much it costs.
Well it's probably similar to the GKGM to Brother Captain differential.
So there have been many comments on the IF chapter tactics not effecting Sternguard, but I will have to wait for the actual release to get a look at the wording of both the chapter tactic and the Sternguard load out.
I have to wonder if the current interpretation of the IF rules are just that, an interpretation. Do the rules specifically state SG special ammo is excluded, or is the rumor poster just making that assumption because the rule states re-roll 1s with boltguns only? Currently, SG are armed with boltguns, and the special ammo doesn't change that (just changes the profile). Has the wargear list for the SG changed? Maybe combi bolters specifically are not included, which would exclude a number of SG builds?
This may have already been covered but seeing this is now +100 pages I am just going to ask, are the special chapter books going to be released alongside the vanilla book?
DogofWar1 wrote: I could see Chapter Masters adding a wound and attack and staying 125, seeing as captains will likely drop 10 points, or going up to 135 or 140.
Consider a wolf lord is 100 flat and has 4 attacks base and just one less wound and I doubt CM or captains will be that expensive. Especially since my wolf lord is over priced when you consider a chaos lord is only 65! Nah, SMHQs need a drastic drop in points IMO.
"Well it's probably similar to the GKGM to Brother Captain differential."
Except the grand master has a bevy of special rules that make him worth the extra points, not just +1 wound.
Which is why I said look at the % differential not the raw costs. The two GKHQ's definitely need to cost more for gear and powers but the difference between them shouldn't be that much different.
DogofWar1 wrote: I could see Chapter Masters adding a wound and attack and staying 125, seeing as captains will likely drop 10 points, or going up to 135 or 140.
Consider a wolf lord is 100 flat and has 4 attacks base and just one less wound and I doubt CM or captains will be that expensive. Especially since my wolf lord is over priced when you consider a chaos lord is only 65! Nah, SMHQs need a drastic drop in points IMO.
"Well it's probably similar to the GKGM to Brother Captain differential."
Except the grand master has a bevy of special rules that make him worth the extra points, not just +1 wound.
Which is why I said look at the % differential not the raw costs. The two GKHQ's definitely need to cost more for gear and powers but the difference between them shouldn't be that much different.
A Chaos Lord doesn't have a 4++ save, to give him one costs 25pts, which puts him at 90pts, the same cost as a DA company master, which no doubt will be the cost of a Captain.
SW Wolf Lords are overcosted I agree, they need to be 100pts with a 4++ save, or 75pts without one.
As for the Chapter Master, I'll be fine if they stay the same points IF and only if they get +1W and +1A. It would be well worth it (5 relic blade attacks on the charge, awesome!).
DogofWar1 wrote: I could see Chapter Masters adding a wound and attack and staying 125, seeing as captains will likely drop 10 points, or going up to 135 or 140.
Consider a wolf lord is 100 flat and has 4 attacks base and just one less wound and I doubt CM or captains will be that expensive. Especially since my wolf lord is over priced when you consider a chaos lord is only 65! Nah, SMHQs need a drastic drop in points IMO.
"Well it's probably similar to the GKGM to Brother Captain differential."
Except the grand master has a bevy of special rules that make him worth the extra points, not just +1 wound.
Which is why I said look at the % differential not the raw costs. The two GKHQ's definitely need to cost more for gear and powers but the difference between them shouldn't be that much different.
A Chaos Lord doesn't have a 4++ save, to give him one costs 25pts, which puts him at 90pts, the same cost as a DA company master, which no doubt will be the cost of a Captain.
SW Wolf Lords are overcosted I agree, they need to be 100pts with a 4++ save, or 75pts without one.
As for the Chapter Master, I'll be fine if they stay the same points IF and only if they get +1W and +1A. It would be well worth it (5 relic blade attacks on the charge, awesome!).
Well I was assuming cost without the Halo but otherwise either way I agree.
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davou wrote: Any word on potential changes to relic blades now that they were mentioned?
Aren't relic blades in the DA codex? I would imagine them to remain consistent if they are.
Has it been confirmed or anyone read that grav weapons ignore armor save?. I have read all over the place they wound equals to models save, not that they ignore it. I dont think they will ignore it, that would make them the default best weapon with no downside for every chapter that can use them since, If they have bad save you dont need them and your bolters do the job, and if they have good save then you have the best specialist you could want, there is literally no downside to use them. When melta ruled 5th, it still had the short range downside, plasma in 6th has the overheat downside, i doubt they would make a best gun ever, with no downside what so ever, and yeah moving rapid firing weapons and 12" range for this gun i dont consider it a downside, unlike melta in 5th now you can move and fire your bolters.
xxvaderxx wrote: Has it been confirmed or anyone read that grav weapons ignore armor save?. I have read all over the place they wound equals to models save, not that they ignore it. I dont think they will ignore it, that would make them the default best weapon with no downside for every chapter that can use them since, If they have bad save you dont need them and your bolters do the job, and if they have good save then you have the best specialist you could want, there is literally no downside to use them.
Can anyone confirm they do indeed ignore saves?.
No real confirmation until the book comes out, but all the rumors point to AP2.
xxvaderxx wrote: Has it been confirmed or anyone read that grav weapons ignore armor save?. I have read all over the place they wound equals to models save, not that they ignore it. I dont think they will ignore it, that would make them the default best weapon with no downside for every chapter that can use them since, If they have bad save you dont need them and your bolters do the job, and if they have good save then you have the best specialist you could want, there is literally no downside to use them.
Can anyone confirm they do indeed ignore saves?.
Everything I have read has them listed at AP2 though I haven't seen one summary for all the effects.
From what I have gathered so far they are salvo, wound on armor save roll and AP 2 with some bizarre effect against vehicles which I haven't fully learned but apparently they strip HP's and immobilize them on 6's? Oh and the have concussive.
Everything I have read has them listed at AP2 though I haven't seen one summary for all the effects.
From what I have gathered so far they are salvo, wound on armor save roll and AP 2 with some bizarre effect against vehicles which I haven't fully learned but apparently they strip HP's and immobilize them on 6's? Oh and the have concussive.
Being a marine player, i sinceraly hope they are not ap2, i would like no better than ap4+, it would make them simply too good, there would be no reason to use something else.
xxvaderxx wrote: Has it been confirmed or anyone read that grav weapons ignore armor save?. I have read all over the place they wound equals to models save, not that they ignore it. I dont think they will ignore it, that would make them the default best weapon with no downside for every chapter that can use them since, If they have bad save you dont need them and your bolters do the job, and if they have good save then you have the best specialist you could want, there is literally no downside to use them. When melta ruled 5th, it still had the short range downside, plasma in 6th has the overheat downside, i doubt they would make a best gun ever, with no downside what so ever, and yeah moving rapid firing weapons and 12" range for this gun i dont consider it a downside, unlike melta in 5th now you can move and fire your bolters.
Can anyone confirm they do indeed ignore saves?.
They counter MCs with the concusive rule.
being salvo, they are only really good when standing still, plasma and melta are good on the move
Plasma will be better against Teq melta for ID/ vehicles
neither plasma nor melta is useless against ork boys. Models with grav weapons are better pulling out their bolt pistol than using the grav rifle on an ork.
Everything I have read has them listed at AP2 though I haven't seen one summary for all the effects.
From what I have gathered so far they are salvo, wound on armor save roll and AP 2 with some bizarre effect against vehicles which I haven't fully learned but apparently they strip HP's and immobilize them on 6's? Oh and the have concussive.
Being a marine player, i sinceraly hope they are not ap2, i would like no better than ap4+, it would make them simply too good, there would be no reason to use something else.
even if it is ap2,
the fact that you cant fire them on the move well
the fact that they cannot ID things
the fact they are nearly useless against vehicles
the fact that they are nearlly useless against Geq and worse
the fact that they may cost more than a melta or plasma
the fact that even against Meq(3+) melta or plasma is better
Well, first off, the theory is it uses your armor to crush yuo to death... So having your armor save you while crushing you is beyond idiotic.
Second, they are salvo meaning they can't be effective on the move with regular schmoes, not even stern guard out of a pod. Consider a plasma gun wounds most things on a 2+ and is AP2 and can move and fire twice and suddenly 3 shots stationary from a gun that ONLY is effective against TEQ or MC's doesn't seem like a no brainer any more. If you face tau or eldar you are hurting a coupe unit entries sure, but those grav weapons are crap against even kroot unlike a plasma gun.
I think they are a great weapon actually, but really will be most effective on a relentless platform. Like bikes and centurions. But even there you are using EXPENSIVE units to fill a niche roll, considering the stock HB's on the centurions are better against guardsmen and orks then the grave weapons.
Everything I have read has them listed at AP2 though I haven't seen one summary for all the effects.
From what I have gathered so far they are salvo, wound on armor save roll and AP 2 with some bizarre effect against vehicles which I haven't fully learned but apparently they strip HP's and immobilize them on 6's? Oh and the have concussive.
Being a marine player, i sinceraly hope they are not ap2, i would like no better than ap4+, it would make them simply too good, there would be no reason to use something else.
If they're costed appropriately (probably 5-10 more points than a plasma gun depending on the details) they may not be too unreasonable. Considering that a plasma gun is going to wound most things (anything T5 or lower) on a 2+ and is AP2, it's not an entirely unfamiliar weapon. Heck, it'd potentially even be slightly worse against MEQ.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking forward to yet *more* stuff that turns my Deathwing into 40-some point Guardsmen and these things certainly could be unbalanced, but I'll hold my judgement until I see the actual rules, point costs, and availability.
[spoiler]Has it been confirmed or anyone read that grav weapons ignore armor save?. I have read all over the place they wound equals to models save, not that they ignore it. I dont think they will ignore it, that would make them the default best weapon with no downside for every chapter that can use them since, If they have bad save you dont need them and your bolters do the job, and if they have good save then you have the best specialist you could want, there is literally no downside to use them. When melta ruled 5th, it still had the short range downside, plasma in 6th has the overheat downside, i doubt they would make a best gun ever, with no downside what so ever, and yeah moving rapid firing weapons and 12" range for this gun i dont consider it a downside, unlike melta in 5th now you can move and fire your bolters.
Can anyone confirm they do indeed ignore saves?.
They counter MCs with the concusive rule.
being salvo, they are only really good when standing still, plasma and melta are good on the move
Plasma will be better against Teq melta for ID/ vehicles
neither plasma nor melta is useless against ork boys. Models with grav weapons are better pulling out their bolt pistol than using the grav rifle on an ork.
Everything I have read has them listed at AP2 though I haven't seen one summary for all the effects.
From what I have gathered so far they are salvo, wound on armor save roll and AP 2 with some bizarre effect against vehicles which I haven't fully learned but apparently they strip HP's and immobilize them on 6's? Oh and the have concussive.
Being a marine player, i sinceraly hope they are not ap2, i would like no better than ap4+, it would make them simply too good, there would be no reason to use something else.
even if it is ap2,
the fact that you cant fire them on the move well
the fact that they cannot ID things
the fact they are nearly useless against vehicles
the fact that they are nearlly useless against Geq and worse
the fact that they may cost more than a melta or plasma
the fact that even against Meq(3+) melta or plasma is better
I see a lot of reasons to use other things.
[/spoiler]
This is my feeling as well, for me even a centurion unit will only ever have 3 grav weapons with 1-2 other weapons. I'll probably do 2 heavy grav and 1 with las canons since they can help finish any MC off or split fire at tanks.
Everything I have read has them listed at AP2 though I haven't seen one summary for all the effects.
From what I have gathered so far they are salvo, wound on armor save roll and AP 2 with some bizarre effect against vehicles which I haven't fully learned but apparently they strip HP's and immobilize them on 6's? Oh and the have concussive.
Being a marine player, i sinceraly hope they are not ap2, i would like no better than ap4+, it would make them simply too good, there would be no reason to use something else.
I see a lot of people complaining about Marines not needing another AP2 weapon. Why is it the recent Xenos army releases got lots of portable ranged AP3 and AP2, but Marines should be happy with Gets Hot plasma guns and short ranged melta. I for one welcome another portable ranged AP2 weapon to the fold. Certainly comes in handy against 3+ Aspect warriors, 2+ Phoenix Lords, Crisis and Broadside suits, and the various 2+ and 3+ Necron units. Its also nice to have something that can wound Eldar Wraith units consistently. Sure its not so useful against orks, but that's why you don't spam a single weapon type in a TAC list.
Making it salvo also adds a twist to the typical combat squad setup (put the heavy weapon and the grav gun in the same squad for a nice little fire base).
Looks like I'll be spamming Kroot with Sniper rounds a lot now then - come at me Grav Guns :-D Snipe those bad boys out of there!
P.S This was only a jest. I know Grav guns will probably be very rare as they are such a situational gun but wounding on armour save AND AP2 is quite scary for my Riptide to contend with. Guess I'll just sit 72" back and just pop them off.
I honestly will never run one over melta in my tac squads, it's not actually portable being salvo and lets not forget can't over watch (or am I mistaken?). Nah I hope they can be mounted on attack bikes actually, I'll field a pair of heavy grav attack bikes any day.
ClassicCarraway wrote: I see a lot of people complaining about Marines not needing another AP2 weapon. Why is it the recent Xenos army releases got lots of portable ranged AP3 and AP2, but Marines should be happy with Gets Hot plasma guns and short ranged melta. I for one welcome another portable ranged AP2 weapon to the fold. Certainly comes in handy against 3+ Aspect warriors, 2+ Phoenix Lords, Crisis and Broadside suits, and the various 2+ and 3+ Necron units. Its also nice to have something that can wound Eldar Wraith units consistently. Sure its not so useful against orks, but that's why you don't spam a single weapon type in a TAC list.
Eldar don't have an a way to assault out of a vehicle or deepstrike like most Marine Codexes and everybody with an open-topped vehicle. Not every army should have every answer that another army provides. Maybe this is the source of their confusion and warranted scowl.
xxvaderxx wrote: Being a marine player, i sinceraly hope they are not ap2, i would like no better than ap4+, it would make them simply too good, there would be no reason to use something else.
Being good at math, I sincerely hope they are not AP4 since that would make plasma better in all situations except when <insert some situation that is as likely as winning the lottery>.
Don't forget that quite some MC's are 4+, so they only wound on a 4+
Hulksmash wrote: Anyone for Tigrius leading a unit of Cents with Grav Cannons? Especially since Tigrius can take Divinations
Prescience doesn't seem worth it since your playing UM and probably already rerolling 1's. Though perfect timing or forewarning would be nice.
Give the man a cookie
Basicall a level 3 with the ability to have a decent shot at Forwarning, Perfect Timing, and Misfortune (or whatever it's call). But also able if one of those doesn't sound great to roll on biomancy to for possible FnP. Some good stuff there.
Red Corsair wrote: I honestly will never run one over melta in my tac squads, it's not actually portable being salvo and lets not forget can't over watch (or am I mistaken?). Nah I hope they can be mounted on attack bikes actually, I'll field a pair of heavy grav attack bikes any day.
Honestly the possibly BS rules they have supplied the squad based units are 2/3 salvo. Seems pretty useful even if you moved.
I think Melta and Plasma are both better options, but that's because I face a lot of targets that are GEQ saves or worse. Melta is much better against vehicles, it can ID more targets, and it's far better at wounding MCs and targets with poorer armor saves. And plasma is better at moving and shooting, still wounds most things on 2s, ignores armor saves and is better at dealing with armor and guys with 3+ saves (or worse).
..........
On another note, what are the rumors about codex psychic powers? Are there going to be any left, or are they going to roll out of the core book for everything? I don't wanna lose Null Zone. :(
..........
Also, what are people's thoughts on the Imperial Fist rules? The Bolter re-roll is worse than the UM Tactical Doctrine, but I think providing Tank Hunter to (newly discounted) Dev Squads and ranged Centurians is pretty legit. I wanna put a Dev squad in an ADL w/ Quad Gun and get to re-roll those armor pen attempts against fliers.
wtwlf123 wrote: I think Melta and Plasma are both better options, but that's because I face a lot of targets that are GEQ saves or worse. Melta is much better against vehicles, it can ID more targets, and it's far better at wounding MCs and targets with poorer armor saves. And plasma is better at moving and shooting, still wounds most things on 2s, ignores armor saves and is better at dealing with armor and guys with 3+ saves (or worse).
..........
On another note, what are the rumors about codex psychic powers? Are there going to be any left, or are they going to roll out of the core book for everything? I don't wanna lose Null Zone. :(
..........
Also, what are people's thoughts on the Imperial Fist rules? The Bolter re-roll is worse than the UM Tactical Doctrine, but I think providing Tank Hunter to (newly discounted) Dev Squads and ranged Centurians is pretty legit. I wanna put a Dev squad in an ADL w/ Quad Gun and get to re-roll those armor pen attempts against fliers.
Red Corsair wrote: I honestly will never run one over melta in my tac squads, it's not actually portable being salvo and lets not forget can't over watch (or am I mistaken?). Nah I hope they can be mounted on attack bikes actually, I'll field a pair of heavy grav attack bikes any day.
Honestly the possibly BS rules they have supplied the squad based units are 2/3 salvo. Seems pretty useful even if you moved.
Don't forget that it has an 18" range for those guns, and even the cannons only have a 24" range making them fairly close range weapons when compared to a lot of other army's longer ranged weapons.
The new characters look absolutely brilliant and they are hopefully plastic sprues and not Finecast. They are steep at $30 each though. And they probably have no options at all and if they do it's probably no more than just an alternate hand or head much like the Terminator Librarian (formerly metal, now Finecast).
I couldn't help notice that the Captain is a heavily reworked version of the Assault On Black Reach Space Marine Captain, a careful look at it makes it pretty obvious through the identical pose, shape of the cloak, position of the hands with the sword and bolter, etc., However, it's brilliantly done and makes me want to own one even though I own several of the Black Reach Captain models.
BrassScorpion wrote: The new characters look absolutely brilliant and they are hopefully plastic sprues and not Finecast. They are steep at $30 each though. And they probably have no options at all and if they do it's probably no more than just an alternate hand or head much like the Terminator Librarian (formerly metal, now Finecast).
I couldn't help notice that the Captain is a heavily reworked version of the Assault On Black Reach Space Marine Captain, a careful look at it makes it pretty obvious through the identical pose, shape of the cloak, position of the hands with the sword and bolter, etc., However, it's brilliantly done and makes me want to own one even though I own several of the Black Reach Captain models.
I'm not especially wowed by the new HQ models myself. Considering how expensive these kits are supposed to be, if you were looking to buy all three you could just pick up one of the new Sternguard or Vanguard kits and use that to kitbash five characters.
BrassScorpion wrote: I couldn't help notice that the Captain is a heavily reworked version of the Assault On Black Reach Space Marine Captain, a careful look at it makes it pretty obvious through the identical pose, shape of the cloak, position of the hands with the sword and bolter, etc.,
This was discussed earlier. When you put them side by side, they're actually not as identical as they at first seem. Just in similar poses.
My apologies but what are the supposed stats for Tigurius? I keep on hearing about claims that he can auto-pass psyker tests and pick from any psychic discipline and not having an invuln save yet I cannot seem to find it. Might anybody be so kind as to redirect me? (and I must admit I'm a bit jealous as a Tzeentch player )
StarTrotter wrote: My apologies but what are the supposed stats for Tigurius? I keep on hearing about claims that he can auto-pass psyker tests and pick from any psychic discipline and not having an invuln save yet I cannot seem to find it. Might anybody be so kind as to redirect me? (and I must admit I'm a bit jealous as a Tzeentch player )
Tigurius:
Mastery level 3
Can choose powers from any rulebook discipline
Can re-roll when generating powers
Lets you re-roll reserve rolls (even ones you passed) and failed psychic tests
StarTrotter wrote: My apologies but what are the supposed stats for Tigurius? I keep on hearing about claims that he can auto-pass psyker tests and pick from any psychic discipline and not having an invuln save yet I cannot seem to find it. Might anybody be so kind as to redirect me? (and I must admit I'm a bit jealous as a Tzeentch player )
No new stats are given. All the rumors are that he's a ML3 with all disciplines, and he can reroll the roll to get a power, or his psychic checks.
Red Corsair wrote: I honestly will never run one over melta in my tac squads, it's not actually portable being salvo and lets not forget can't over watch (or am I mistaken?). Nah I hope they can be mounted on attack bikes actually, I'll field a pair of heavy grav attack bikes any day.
Honestly the possibly BS rules they have supplied the squad based units are 2/3 salvo. Seems pretty useful even if you moved.
Salvo is only half range if you move, so only 9" for grav gun and 12" for the cannon if you move.
Fezman wrote: I'm not especially wowed by the new HQ models myself. Considering how expensive these kits are supposed to be, if you were looking to buy all three you could just pick up one of the new Sternguard or Vanguard kits and use that to kitbash five characters.
if these are reasonably multi-part kits (to the tune of the Empire Wizard kit) I could be down for picking some of these up, but as it stands I'm not sure if I want them.
Hulksmash wrote: Anyone for Tigrius leading a unit of Cents with Grav Cannons? Especially since Tigrius can take Divinations
Prescience doesn't seem worth it since your playing UM and probably already rerolling 1's. Though perfect timing or forewarning would be nice.
Give the man a cookie
Basicall a level 3 with the ability to have a decent shot at Forwarning, Perfect Timing, and Misfortune (or whatever it's call). But also able if one of those doesn't sound great to roll on biomancy to for possible FnP. Some good stuff there.
Honestly you could use Iron hands with him and go for endurance to try and get a FNP 4+, I onley wish that IWND stacked like FNP for a 4+ there too
Really Tygrius is going to be awesome with almost any unit and I am not sure the Centurions will need him as much as others. I think I would use him with the telepathy table more often. Having three rerollable shots at invisibility or hallucination, heck even puppet master is borderline busted.
Naturally. It depends on who you're playing. Tigrius is going to be fairly prolific I think. Basic marines being able to also ally in IG blobs and have them still get divination is stupid. Especially if characters aren't tied to specific traits (i.e. Tigrius is my Salamander Master Librarian).
SickSix wrote: Personally I thought the DP and LR capacity only made since to be 12. Seems silly to me that you cant take 5 termies and an HQ in a Land Raider.
It would be nice, and I am going to miss the ability to run a full 10 man sternguard squad (that can combat squad) plus Kantor in a drop pod, but it was kind of stupid to give them 12 model capacity when the brand new drop pod model comes with 10 seats.
There's enough space on the ceiling for two more guys.
Psh, the characters ride on the outside, bare chested, laughing off the effects of atmospheric reentry as their sheer manliness defies the laws of the universe to bring them crashing down upon their foes.
I thought that was only Space Wolves?
And blood angels need room for their hair gel and mirrors.
Codex Marines did it as well, but the Space Wolves do it in such a manner that all of them, through sheer manliness, just take a grip onto the Drop Pod and ride it all the way down. Opening the Drop Pod and going inside it are for cowards, and cuts precious seconds off getting into combat with their foes.
After all, Their manly beards, wolf pelts, and faith in the Allfather allows them all to make it through any pathetic thing the universe can throw at them.
I recall someone commenting that the reason SW only have room for 10 in the pod is so they still have space for beer.
dracpanzer wrote: No word yet on whether or not Dreads are still going to get "Inspiring Presence"
I asked about that and he said no, it doesn't exist. Same for the rhino variants too. Apparently creative wishlisting or dropped ideas from playtesting.
I really like most of this. The Centurions look very sci-fi. I like their sculpts. I don't think they fit well with SM, but they look cool. I just hope they aren't a cheese unit, because I don't plan to field any if I do decide to build a new SM army for 6th Ed. I really like the multi-barrel anti-aircraft Rhino. I will definitely field one of those. Now, my real hope, is that the new SM box will include some unhelmeted heads that will look more masculine. I really hate having to use SW heads on my SM because all the Ultramarines look like 20 year old college boys till they are 300. Some short beards, some facial scars, and some service studs would be GREATLY appreciated. The new Sternguard box gets me all excited, I love the look of them, and I can't wait to canabalize all the bits. And last but not least, I will be extremely excited if my Salamanders get their own special entry into the new codex with some rules that are great, without having to take Vulkan every time. All in all, Im pretty excited.
My only hope with the new Sternguard box is that I get a full assortment of Combi weapons. That is the part of the Sternguard that is hard to get worked out as a player. If I want to deck a whole unit out with Combi weapons its smarter for me to go buy a tac squad and buy the chapterhouse magnetised combi weapons rather than buying GW stuff to arm them.
If the box comes with enough combi's to arm the whole unit with each of the combi's then I am good and will be on board to buy 4 boxes.
GW is an excellent company because of their business strategy. Many gaming companies have come and gone but GW is still here because they expect to lose 50% of their customers. They want you to buy a codex, a battleforce, and 3 boxes after that anything more is a bonus.
I like the new codex rumors, they are basically bringing back traits from the previous codex without the drawbacks. A simple already tested way to give the codex its mandatory codex boast, add 1-2 new weapons, 1-2 new units, 1-2 new items and you have yourself a typical 6th edition codex.
There is nothing Helldrake game changing caliber, do you see yourself changing your list around because tactical squads hit more often when shooting? Or maybe its the new weapon that can be carried by 1 marine in a tactical squad or a 60+ point NEW model. Their are certain things you cannot complain about with a new codex: 1.things getting cheaper, 2.a really good new unit, 3.new items (relics, war gear, banners) .
Marine players for the longest have been screaming about grey hunters, now they get some re-rolls. Tactical squads are cheaper and depending on your chapter tactics can get re-rolls and bonuses, eldar get ap 2 when you roll a 6 to wound and are cheaper, fire warriors are cheaper and have fire support kroot have sniper rounds, nothing broken in my opinion.
My only concern is Varro, I refuse to believe he gets to choose his powers some sources says he can others say he gets to re-roll when choosing which sounds more reasonable. Besides Varro the rumors seem ok, their power boast will be nothing like Tau. Tau are not op its just that they went from near the bottom to near the top.
dracpanzer wrote: No word yet on whether or not Dreads are still going to get "Inspiring Presence"
I asked about that and he said no, it doesn't exist. Same for the rhino variants too. Apparently creative wishlisting or dropped ideas from playtesting.
Weren't the Rhino variants (medic, command, etc) supposed to be just vehicle upgrades instead of true variants?
Since you seem to have a source with the codex, any way we can get an exact wording of the various chapter traits?
spamthulhu wrote: If the box comes with enough combi's to arm the whole unit with each of the combi's then I am good and will be on board to buy 4 boxes.
All the reports point to there being 2 of each combi-weapon in the kit.
Fezman wrote: I'm not especially wowed by the new HQ models myself. Considering how expensive these kits are supposed to be, if you were looking to buy all three you could just pick up one of the new Sternguard or Vanguard kits and use that to kitbash five characters.
if these are reasonably multi-part kits (to the tune of the Empire Wizard kit) I could be down for picking some of these up, but as it stands I'm not sure if I want them.
If the price point of $30 is accurate, these better have a lot of options on the sprue. I like the models overall (would ditch the cherub on the librarian) but consider them on par with the new $20 farseer. I hope whoever got these prices was looking at canadian/australian/other prices, not USD.
For $22.25 you get the build-your-own captain box, with all the extras. Well, not the combi-grav, so there is that. But how many people are running their captains with a power sword and a combi weapon these days?
The chaplain, while good looking, is going up against a full line of chaplains half his price, which are some of the best looking models in the range.
The librarian (barring the cherub) is IMHO the best looking librarian model put out by GW. If the price is lower then reported and/or there is more to the kit, I'll pick one up. If it's $30 for a mono-pose, I'll pass.
I'm going to pick up one of each of the sternguard/vanguard boxes to build as veterans. I'm seriously thinking about picking up another box or one or both to assemble as captains/honor guard/veteran sergeants. I'll have to see how the sprues look. That plus the codex and a new tac box are probably going to be it for me this release.
spamthulhu wrote: If the box comes with enough combi's to arm the whole unit with each of the combi's then I am good and will be on board to buy 4 boxes.
All the reports point to there being 2 of each combi-weapon in the kit.
that is what I was going to guess. There are now 4 different combi weapons + regular bolters meaning 5 options. If there was 5 of each, that would be 25 boltguns.
one of each would also be kind of silly. 2 of each is 10 boltguns and sounds reasonable.
spamthulhu wrote: If the box comes with enough combi's to arm the whole unit with each of the combi's then I am good and will be on board to buy 4 boxes.
All the reports point to there being 2 of each combi-weapon in the kit.
that is what I was going to guess. There are now 4 different combi weapons + regular bolters meaning 5 options. If there was 5 of each, that would be 25 boltguns.
one of each would also be kind of silly. 2 of each is 10 boltguns and sounds reasonable.
I'm not really following your math. From the sounds/looks of it, we get 5+ bolters, 2 of each combi-weapon: flamer, melta, plasma, grav (the two combi-gravs look different) , a heavy flamer, a heavy bolter, and 1+ plasma pistols. Likely there are a few other weapons in there like another plasma pistol, some bolt and grav pistols, and at least one scabbarded power sword so potentially a power weapon or two.
dracpanzer wrote: No word yet on whether or not Dreads are still going to get "Inspiring Presence"
I asked about that and he said no, it doesn't exist. Same for the rhino variants too. Apparently creative wishlisting or dropped ideas from playtesting.
spamthulhu wrote: If the box comes with enough combi's to arm the whole unit with each of the combi's then I am good and will be on board to buy 4 boxes.
All the reports point to there being 2 of each combi-weapon in the kit.
that is what I was going to guess. There are now 4 different combi weapons + regular bolters meaning 5 options. If there was 5 of each, that would be 25 boltguns.
one of each would also be kind of silly. 2 of each is 10 boltguns and sounds reasonable.
I;m not really following your math. From the sounds/looks of it, we get 5 bolters, 2 of each combi-weapon (flamer, melta, plasma, grav), a heavy flamer, a heavy bolter, and 1+ plasma pistols. Likely there are a few other weapons in there like another plasma pistol, some bolt and grav pistols, and at least one scabbarded power sword so potentially a power weapon or two.
I am assuming 2 regular bolters and 2 of each combi weapons(of which there are 4). That is 2+8= 10 bolters. 1HF, 1HB, 1-2 plasma pistols and sure a combat weapon or two. I dont think there are going to be 5 regular bolters and 5 of each combi bolters, as that would be 5 + 20 = 25
I must ask.... how badly do you think people would react if one was to play Berzerker models and then greenstuffed/mixtures of cultists and fantasy pieces to make muscular armoured chaff units to play BT? Because it feels more fitting for my army then my own CSM codex!
You can do whatever you want as long as your army has the right equipment on it and your opponent knows what rules you are using. Anyone who says different is a jackass.
dracpanzer wrote: No word yet on whether or not Dreads are still going to get "Inspiring Presence"
I asked about that and he said no, it doesn't exist. Same for the rhino variants too. Apparently creative wishlisting or dropped ideas from playtesting.
Weren't the Rhino variants (medic, command, etc) supposed to be just vehicle upgrades instead of true variants?
Since you seem to have a source with the codex, any way we can get an exact wording of the various chapter traits?
It's long and only in the order in which it's posted so be forewarned that you might want to pee before you start reading.
Nevelon wrote:If the price point of $30 is accurate, these better have a lot of options on the sprue. I like the models overall (would ditch the cherub on the librarian) but consider them on par with the new $20 farseer. I hope whoever got these prices was looking at canadian/australian/other prices, not USD.
For $22.25 you get the build-your-own captain box, with all the extras. Well, not the combi-grav, so there is that. But how many people are running their captains with a power sword and a combi weapon these days?
The chaplain, while good looking, is going up against a full line of chaplains half his price, which are some of the best looking models in the range.
The librarian (barring the cherub) is IMHO the best looking librarian model put out by GW. If the price is lower then reported and/or there is more to the kit, I'll pick one up. If it's $30 for a mono-pose, I'll pass.
I'm going to pick up one of each of the sternguard/vanguard boxes to build as veterans. I'm seriously thinking about picking up another box or one or both to assemble as captains/honor guard/veteran sergeants. I'll have to see how the sprues look. That plus the codex and a new tac box are probably going to be it for me this release.
Prices came from Faeit who confirmed all prices he posts are USD unless otherwise stated.
Honestly it doesn't really bother my either way what these guys end up being as I'm building Captain Silas out of the FW Mk IV commander model. I'd considered making him -bigger- but after asking FW about it they said he uses a standard Infantry base so that's my plan.
dracpanzer wrote: No word yet on whether or not Dreads are still going to get "Inspiring Presence"
I asked about that and he said no, it doesn't exist. Same for the rhino variants too. Apparently creative wishlisting or dropped ideas from playtesting.
...or saved after playtesting for a supplement
Also possible. I don't really know of any one chapter that'd get that over anyone else though.
Well I stand corrected. Iron Hands could definitely benefit from "Inspiring Presence" dreads, especially with "IWND" on them as well.
Purifyingflame_7 wrote: I really like most of this. The Centurions look very sci-fi. I like their sculpts. I don't think they fit well with SM, but they look cool. I just hope they aren't a cheese unit, because I don't plan to field any if I do decide to build a new SM army for 6th Ed. I really like the multi-barrel anti-aircraft Rhino. I will definitely field one of those. Now, my real hope, is that the new SM box will include some unhelmeted heads that will look more masculine. I really hate having to use SW heads on my SM because all the Ultramarines look like 20 year old college boys till they are 300. Some short beards, some facial scars, and some service studs would be GREATLY appreciated. The new Sternguard box gets me all excited, I love the look of them, and I can't wait to canabalize all the bits. And last but not least, I will be extremely excited if my Salamanders get their own special entry into the new codex with some rules that are great, without having to take Vulkan every time. All in all, Im pretty excited.
I actually really dislike the models, i look forward to replacing them with a tech marine and some appropriately sized automated weapons on wheels.
dracpanzer wrote: No word yet on whether or not Dreads are still going to get "Inspiring Presence"
I asked about that and he said no, it doesn't exist. Same for the rhino variants too. Apparently creative wishlisting or dropped ideas from playtesting.
Purifyingflame_7 wrote: I really like most of this. The Centurions look very sci-fi. I like their sculpts. I don't think they fit well with SM, but they look cool. I just hope they aren't a cheese unit, because I don't plan to field any if I do decide to build a new SM army for 6th Ed. I really like the multi-barrel anti-aircraft Rhino. I will definitely field one of those. Now, my real hope, is that the new SM box will include some unhelmeted heads that will look more masculine. I really hate having to use SW heads on my SM because all the Ultramarines look like 20 year old college boys till they are 300. Some short beards, some facial scars, and some service studs would be GREATLY appreciated. The new Sternguard box gets me all excited, I love the look of them, and I can't wait to canabalize all the bits. And last but not least, I will be extremely excited if my Salamanders get their own special entry into the new codex with some rules that are great, without having to take Vulkan every time. All in all, Im pretty excited.
I actually really dislike the models, i look forward to replacing them with a tech marine and some appropriately sized automated weapons on wheels.
spamthulhu wrote: If the box comes with enough combi's to arm the whole unit with each of the combi's then I am good and will be on board to buy 4 boxes.
All the reports point to there being 2 of each combi-weapon in the kit.
that is what I was going to guess. There are now 4 different combi weapons + regular bolters meaning 5 options. If there was 5 of each, that would be 25 boltguns.
one of each would also be kind of silly. 2 of each is 10 boltguns and sounds reasonable.
I'm not really following your math. From the sounds/looks of it, we get 5+ bolters, 2 of each combi-weapon: flamer, melta, plasma, grav (the two combi-gravs look different) , a heavy flamer, a heavy bolter, and 1+ plasma pistols. Likely there are a few other weapons in there like another plasma pistol, some bolt and grav pistols, and at least one scabbarded power sword so potentially a power weapon or two.
I'd be fine with 2 of every combo, as most players I know usually run Sterns in a 5/5 pattern in 10 man squads, so will only have to scrounge one out of an extra box or off ebay. If they go with the extra kit they can then throw the 6th combi to a sgt or command squad trooper.
In all honesty I'll probably be sticking with the chapterhouse kits, much more versatile and it will keep the look of my army consistent. I'm sure they'll come out with a combi-grav top soon, and I can then sell the combis I don't need to recoup some of the cost of the kits
Fezman wrote: I'm not especially wowed by the new HQ models myself. Considering how expensive these kits are supposed to be, if you were looking to buy all three you could just pick up one of the new Sternguard or Vanguard kits and use that to kitbash five characters.
if these are reasonably multi-part kits (to the tune of the Empire Wizard kit) I could be down for picking some of these up, but as it stands I'm not sure if I want them.
If the price point of $30 is accurate, these better have a lot of options on the sprue. I like the models overall (would ditch the cherub on the librarian) but consider them on par with the new $20 farseer. I hope whoever got these prices was looking at canadian/australian/other prices, not USD.
For $22.25 you get the build-your-own captain box, with all the extras. Well, not the combi-grav, so there is that. But how many people are running their captains with a power sword and a combi weapon these days?
The chaplain, while good looking, is going up against a full line of chaplains half his price, which are some of the best looking models in the range.
The librarian (barring the cherub) is IMHO the best looking librarian model put out by GW. If the price is lower then reported and/or there is more to the kit, I'll pick one up. If it's $30 for a mono-pose, I'll pass.
I'm going to pick up one of each of the sternguard/vanguard boxes to build as veterans. I'm seriously thinking about picking up another box or one or both to assemble as captains/honor guard/veteran sergeants. I'll have to see how the sprues look. That plus the codex and a new tac box are probably going to be it for me this release.
Unfortunately I don't see any reason to expect that the new characters won't be monopose. Of course, they could always make them proper multi-part, multi-pose models, but that feels to me like it'd be bucking the current monopose trend too much to be likely. Admittedly that is just my hunch, but I feel if they were kits akin to the current Commander box we'd have heard by now.
As I just finished painting 20 converted Sternguard, my plan is to get one of each Vet kit and use them to convert some sergeants and HQs, maybe some SCs or a command squad.
I have enough captain/chaplain/librarian models at the moment, so I certainly won't be forking over $30 a piece of these. Heck, the old ones look just fine, so I'll get one of those if I need them.
More Sternguard might be in my future, but only after a while. $100 plus another $35 for the drop pod is a bit steep right now.
Most likely, the first models I get are the AA Rhino variants. If the Centurion rules are not any better than what is currently rumored, I won't be in a hurry for them.
spamthulhu wrote: If the box comes with enough combi's to arm the whole unit with each of the combi's then I am good and will be on board to buy 4 boxes.
All the reports point to there being 2 of each combi-weapon in the kit.
that is what I was going to guess. There are now 4 different combi weapons + regular bolters meaning 5 options. If there was 5 of each, that would be 25 boltguns.
one of each would also be kind of silly. 2 of each is 10 boltguns and sounds reasonable.
I;m not really following your math. From the sounds/looks of it, we get 5 bolters, 2 of each combi-weapon (flamer, melta, plasma, grav), a heavy flamer, a heavy bolter, and 1+ plasma pistols. Likely there are a few other weapons in there like another plasma pistol, some bolt and grav pistols, and at least one scabbarded power sword so potentially a power weapon or two.
I am assuming 2 regular bolters and 2 of each combi weapons(of which there are 4). That is 2+8= 10 bolters. 1HF, 1HB, 1-2 plasma pistols and sure a combat weapon or two. I dont think there are going to be 5 regular bolters and 5 of each combi bolters, as that would be 5 + 20 = 25
I'm not assuming 5 of each combi-weapon, but that there will be 2 of each combi-weapon (we see 2 different designs for combi-grav guns on sternguard models) and 5 normal bolters, for a total of 13 guns, plus pistols, heavy weapons, ect.
No way they are going to put 5 of each combi-weapon in the box, but I expect at least 5 normal bolters so you can arm them normally.
I am pretty sure the combi weapons are modular. So you won't even be able to make one of each available. You will be able to make like, 2 and then have bits left over
I suppose a company could be quite clever and instead of having say, another half dozen theoretical pouches, make them so that they can 'fit over' the barrel, like Sicksix suggests.
Then have a couple of normal bolter barrels as well. Everybody wins!
ClassicCarraway wrote: If the Centurion rules are not any better than what is currently rumored, I won't be in a hurry for them.
Actually, the assault variants are potentially pretty goddamn sick (2 base + 1 apparently from two specialist weapons = 3 attacks at S9 AP2 at I4). Doesn't make 'em any less silly-looking, though. And one can hope the two arms only count as a single weapon so it's only the 2 base attacks, but seems like a slim hope.
Luckily I think that we will be able to use the extra bits to modify regular bolters and make them combi weapons. Personally I am looking forward to them having a combi flamer, I have wanted to take those forever, but they never had a convenient bit for it.
ClassicCarraway wrote: If the Centurion rules are not any better than what is currently rumored, I won't be in a hurry for them.
Actually, the assault variants are potentially pretty goddamn sick (2 base + 1 apparently from two specialist weapons = 3 attacks at S9 AP2 at I4). Doesn't make 'em any less silly-looking, though. And one can hope the two arms only count as a single weapon so it's only the 2 base attacks, but seems like a slim hope.
EDIT: Actually double checking all the info I found, I can't find any sign of how many attacks EITHER Centurion group gets. Were is this coming from?
ClockworkZion wrote: EDIT: Actually double checking all the info I found, I can't find any sign of how many attacks EITHER Centurion group gets. Were is this coming from?
Someone somewhere stated that the shooty ones have 1 attack, while melee ones have two as base. Could very well be wrong. Even if it is 1 attack base, as was said elsewhere stick 5 into a LRC with a Chaplain, charge into and make a joke out of assault terminators...
ClockworkZion wrote: EDIT: Actually double checking all the info I found, I can't find any sign of how many attacks EITHER Centurion group gets. Were is this coming from?
Someone somewhere stated that the shooty ones have 1 attack, while melee ones have two as base. Could very well be wrong. Even if it is 1 attack base, as was said elsewhere stick 5 into a LRC with a Chaplain, charge into and make a joke out of assault terminators...
1 base with 2 for the Sgt makes the most since seeing as they're just Assault marines, but I could be wrong. Well better to set that bar low than over estimate things!
dienekes96 wrote: I was hoping someone would MAN UP and post some new pictures of the Space Marine models today.
My mistake.
There aren't really that many pictures left to show though. Maybe the box sets that were rumored, or the codex cover but that's about it. We've got pictures of all the new models already. I'm just curious what you were hoping for exactly.
ClassicCarraway wrote: If the Centurion rules are not any better than what is currently rumored, I won't be in a hurry for them.
Actually, the assault variants are potentially pretty goddamn sick (2 base + 1 apparently from two specialist weapons = 3 attacks at S9 AP2 at I4). Doesn't make 'em any less silly-looking, though. And one can hope the two arms only count as a single weapon so it's only the 2 base attacks, but seems like a slim hope.
But as I've said, they have slow and purposeful, have no ++ save, and can't be deepstriked. That means you NEED a Land Raider for them to be of any use, which means for the whole unit + LR, you're looking at 440 points minimum! You might as well just take Hammernators.
SickSix wrote: I am pretty sure the combi weapons are modular. So you won't even be able to make one of each available. You will be able to make like, 2 and then have bits left over
I can't see GW doing modular combi-weapons, as that would both make them more complex, but not save much room over full combi-weapons. Looking at the pics, the place where you could possibly have a join between bolter base and combi-weapon part would leave an extremely narrow point between the stock/grip and the body/foregrip that would be very prone to breaking. I would imagine only 1 of each weapon in the kit before modular ones.
SickSix wrote: I am pretty sure the combi weapons are modular. So you won't even be able to make one of each available. You will be able to make like, 2 and then have bits left over
I can't see GW doing modular combi-weapons, as that would both make them more complex, but not save much room over full combi-weapons. Looking at the pics, the place where you could possibly have a join between bolter base and combi-weapon part would leave an extremely narrow point between the stock/grip and the body/foregrip that would be very prone to breaking. I would imagine only 1 of each weapon in the kit before modular ones.
Apparently the Sternguard have 2 of each, and the Tactical Squad as 1 that is modular.
SickSix wrote: I am pretty sure the combi weapons are modular. So you won't even be able to make one of each available. You will be able to make like, 2 and then have bits left over
I can't see GW doing modular combi-weapons, as that would both make them more complex, but not save much room over full combi-weapons. Looking at the pics, the place where you could possibly have a join between bolter base and combi-weapon part would leave an extremely narrow point between the stock/grip and the body/foregrip that would be very prone to breaking. I would imagine only 1 of each weapon in the kit before modular ones.
Apparently the Sternguard have 2 of each, and the Tactical Squad as 1 that is modular.
Really hope this is true, if only to finally stop all the eBay scalpers who charge $10+ for one combi-weapon
Grav Amp: Re-roll failed to-wounds and armor penetration for Grav weapons.
Must say, I'm glad none have more than 24" range, don't want anymore cries of from the xenos players.
Why would Xenos players care? Most of their armor saves are 4+/5+/6+. Plasma Guns are pretty much the scarier thing for them. Or Heavy Bolters.
I'm sure a T3 Dire Avenger would be delighted that a Space Marine weapon is wounding them on a 4+ rather than a 3+ or worse.
Riptides, Wraithknights, Tyranid MCs???
Wound the Riptides and Tyranid MCs on a 3+ anyways, (so i guess it'd be better against a Riptide) and have you honestly ever played against a Wraithknight? I haven't, no Eldar players I know want to take that points sink. Also, the Plasma Gun has extra range.
SickSix wrote: I am pretty sure the combi weapons are modular. So you won't even be able to make one of each available. You will be able to make like, 2 and then have bits left over
I was about to comment on how unlikely modular combi weapons would be but then I remembered it's GW. This is exactly something they would do. They seem to try and limit the "freebies" they give us. Oh well, few more weeks and we'll see I suppose. The local GW manager just got back from the managers meeting. Apparently, he has some news from the studio regarding fall releases. I will post after I talk to him, if there's anything of note. Cheers.
spamthulhu wrote: If the box comes with enough combi's to arm the whole unit with each of the combi's then I am good and will be on board to buy 4 boxes.
All the reports point to there being 2 of each combi-weapon in the kit.
that is what I was going to guess. There are now 4 different combi weapons + regular bolters meaning 5 options. If there was 5 of each, that would be 25 boltguns.
one of each would also be kind of silly. 2 of each is 10 boltguns and sounds reasonable.
I;m not really following your math. From the sounds/looks of it, we get 5 bolters, 2 of each combi-weapon (flamer, melta, plasma, grav), a heavy flamer, a heavy bolter, and 1+ plasma pistols. Likely there are a few other weapons in there like another plasma pistol, some bolt and grav pistols, and at least one scabbarded power sword so potentially a power weapon or two.
I am assuming 2 regular bolters and 2 of each combi weapons(of which there are 4). That is 2+8= 10 bolters. 1HF, 1HB, 1-2 plasma pistols and sure a combat weapon or two. I dont think there are going to be 5 regular bolters and 5 of each combi bolters, as that would be 5 + 20 = 25
I'm not assuming 5 of each combi-weapon, but that there will be 2 of each combi-weapon (we see 2 different designs for combi-grav guns on sternguard models) and 5 normal bolters, for a total of 13 guns, plus pistols, heavy weapons, ect.
No way they are going to put 5 of each combi-weapon in the box, but I expect at least 5 normal bolters so you can arm them normally.
Pretty sure the top pic is a Grav gun and the bottom is a combi-grav. So that's one of each special and one of each combi
If the price point of $30 is accurate, these better have a lot of options on the sprue. I like the models overall (would ditch the cherub on the librarian) but consider them on par with the new $20 farseer. I hope whoever got these prices was looking at canadian/australian/other prices, not USD.
If the monopose Tau fireblade with no extra bits at all at $20 is any indication (and it's less power in game and we know how GW likes to price things in $$ proportional to how good they are on the tabletop), it'll be $30.
Thanks for that! The new information is pretty informative.
While I like the ability to ally with other marine chapters from a thematic standpoint, I wonder how that is going to play out competitively?
I also know I'm late to the party on this, but I still can't believe Command Squads and Honor Guard can't take Jump packs! It's like they want to make us take Assault and Vanguard Squads...
Also reading that the UM tactical trait works on vehicles as well? Although the answer given isn't really clear so I'll be interested to see once there's better clarification.
Thanks for that! The new information is pretty informative.
While I like the ability to ally with other marine chapters from a thematic standpoint, I wonder how that is going to play out competitively?
I also know I'm late to the party on this, but I still can't believe Command Squads and Honor Guard can't take Jump packs! It's like they want to make us take Assault and Vanguard Squads...
Also reading that the UM tactical trait works on vehicles as well? Although the answer given isn't really clear so I'll be interested to see once there's better clarification.
The way it was given to us, originally, is Ultramarines reroll ones (to hit), and tactical squads have all their weapons as twin-linked.
I mean, seeing as the Raven Guard rule applies to vehicles, and they said that Chapter Traits apply to entire detachments...
gmaleron wrote: With this release it has inspired me to go through and create my Black Dragons army, hopefully Vanguard Vets are now worth taking!
Yes I know what you mean. I've finally decided to throw my hat into the ring with the Crimson Fists
Eh, I'm dearly trying to hold myself from starting Salamanders this release is gonna provoke a boom of C:SM players
I have my copy pre-pre-reserved. With my small contingency of Templars and my Dragon Lords calling my name, how could I not build a companion (ally) force for my DA.
Q: Is that 3-5 man bike squad as troops, or 5-10 man bike squads to count as troops? Also, is the attack bike still an upgrade to a bike squad, as well as a separate choice?
A: Its a 3-5 man. You can upgrade one to an attack bike.
Q: Does a bike Captain only make a bike squad a Troop if it numbers exactly 5 bikes, or or can it be a full "8 man + attack bike" squad?
A: At least 5 bikes can be up to 8.
Thanks for that! The new information is pretty informative.
While I like the ability to ally with other marine chapters from a thematic standpoint, I wonder how that is going to play out competitively?
I also know I'm late to the party on this, but I still can't believe Command Squads and Honor Guard can't take Jump packs! It's like they want to make us take Assault and Vanguard Squads...
Also reading that the UM tactical trait works on vehicles as well? Although the answer given isn't really clear so I'll be interested to see once there's better clarification.
No problem!
From what I understand it looks like vehicles benefit from all Chapter Traits unless otherwise stated. I'm pending a response on that.
And my guess on the lack of Jump Packs for Command Squads and Honor Guard is to preserve the feeling of the Blood Angels codex as a seperate book. On the same token there is no access to either squad to take Terminator armor either.
No problem! I figured it was pointless to horde it and it'd be more accurate than BoLS postings (seriously, they've been causing some confusion with their postings) so I figured I'd share it.
Q: Is that 3-5 man bike squad as troops, or 5-10 man bike squads to count as troops? Also, is the attack bike still an upgrade to a bike squad, as well as a separate choice?
A: Its a 3-5 man. You can upgrade one to an attack bike.
Q: Does a bike Captain only make a bike squad a Troop if it numbers exactly 5 bikes, or or can it be a full "8 man + attack bike" squad?
A: At least 5 bikes can be up to 8.
Okay, which is it?
You missed the last question of that update:
Q: So for clarification on the bikes: any 1 bike unit of at least 5 models (of which one may be upgraded to an attack bike) can be a troop choice per captain on a bike in your army?
A: Correct.
So looks like it's the second and there was miscommunication along the way somehow.
Understanding that we're still all looking at rumors. As a Raven Guard player I'm growing increasingly disappointed. Was looking forward to this Dex to finally get me away from playing my Raven Guard as BA. As well as give me a reason to put my Jump Packs back on my ASM's.
Stealth as a detachment wide rule, okay, fits the fluff, could be useful. If Tau aren't just bypassing your cover saves, or Eldar psykers Divining you out of it.
Jump Pack specialisation, or whatever its called, could be useful. If your Jump Infantry is worth taking.
Command squads don't get jump packs. Was really hoping for this one to change.
Seems like Shrike's entry got cut short, but while limiting him to joining jump infantry to infiltrate is better than seeing him paired up with termies. It certainly seems pretty lackluster compared to the other options. Does he only let the unit he's attached to infiltrate? Or can all of your jump infantry infiltrate? He doesn't unlock ASM as troops, So Shrike basically is just tempting you to do something silly like bring a Vanguard squad to infiltrate and get rolled as First Blood. They can't assault if you go first, and probably won't be there if you go second...
Vanguard got moved to Elites putting them in direct conflict with Sternguard. Raven Guard have always been a mix of Scouts, Drop Pods and Jump Packs IMO. Sternguard have always been a key part of the more competitive builds for them. They still seem like Stern are a much better choice than Vanguard. If taking the one removes the option of the other, I don't care how cheap they are, I'll be fielding my Sternguard everytime. Heroic Intervention gets taken away, its a shame to say it with the new model kit, but unless the weapon options are dirt cheap, who's going to take them?
Land Speeder Storm as dedicated transport was necessary. Though I'm still not sure what I'd do with one if I got it. My scouts camp objectives while the whole Steel Rain thing is going on. The Centurions may be useful, but they don't really fit the Raven Guard way of doing things.
Am I missing something? Seems like there isn't anything in this Dex that would make me want to play my Raven Guard with it over the BA Dex.
All things considered, and realizing that we're still just looking at rumors. I'd rather go with meltas in my assault squads that score, vanguard not competing with sternguard for slots, and divination on my librarians. Oh, and sang priests to boot.
If the trend is cheaper models with expensive weapon upgrades, not sure how many more models you're going to get on the table unless they remain stripped down. A DAtac squad with melta/lascannon in a pod is only 5 points cheaper than the same out of the BA dex.
And I'm conflicted as to why I should even bother with the CSM codex when I can represent my World Eaters and Iron Warriors legion with the loyalist marine codex so much better (and if anyone calls it heresy I jsut look at them and ask them to rethink that phrase mwahaha!)
StarTrotter wrote: And I'm conflicted as to why I should even bother with the CSM codex when I can represent my World Eaters and Iron Warriors legion with the loyalist marine codex so much better (and if anyone calls it heresy I jsut look at them and ask them to rethink that phrase mwahaha!)
Do it! All the cool kids are, as are the long time CSM players that are fed up with two crap codices in a row. I am jumping ship to codex SM and will just save my Daemonic Chaos stuff for Apoc games.
StarTrotter wrote: And I'm conflicted as to why I should even bother with the CSM codex when I can represent my World Eaters and Iron Warriors legion with the loyalist marine codex so much better (and if anyone calls it heresy I jsut look at them and ask them to rethink that phrase mwahaha!)
But just think of all the great things codex chaos gives us!
heldrakes!
dinobots!
...heldrakes!
But yeah real talk as a long time ex IW player it's a real bummer to see that loyalist SM will remain miles ahead in the shooting department for another half decade.
I mean honestly, how hard would loyalist players (actually probably everyone) laugh if the CSM book came out with a rumored option that said troop CSM reroll misses for the cost of *fething nothing*? Oh right but CSM got hatred vs SM in close combat so that's just as good right
dracpanzer wrote: Am I missing something? Seems like there isn't anything in this Dex that would make me want to play my Raven Guard with it over the BA Dex.
Except that it plays almost exactly like BA, but with cheaper units, more options and better special rules?
dracpanzer wrote: All things considered, and realizing that we're still just looking at rumors. I'd rather go with meltas in my assault squads that score, vanguard not competing with sternguard for slots, and divination on my librarians. Oh, and sang priests to boot.
If the trend is cheaper models with expensive weapon upgrades, not sure how many more models you're going to get on the table unless they remain stripped down. A DAtac squad with melta/lascannon in a pod is only 5 points cheaper than the same out of the BA dex.
-Raven Guard can take scoring ASM's, you just need the correct HQ.
-I don't care about the competing, I will only take one of them.
-Why do you think RG doesn't have Divination?
-Sang Priests are the only loss. But RG have so much to make up for it.
dracpanzer wrote: Am I missing something? Seems like there isn't anything in this Dex that would make me want to play my Raven Guard with it over the BA Dex.
Except that it plays almost exactly like BA, but with cheaper units, more options and better special rules?
dracpanzer wrote: All things considered, and realizing that we're still just looking at rumors. I'd rather go with meltas in my assault squads that score, vanguard not competing with sternguard for slots, and divination on my librarians. Oh, and sang priests to boot.
If the trend is cheaper models with expensive weapon upgrades, not sure how many more models you're going to get on the table unless they remain stripped down. A DAtac squad with melta/lascannon in a pod is only 5 points cheaper than the same out of the BA dex.
-Raven Guard can take scoring ASM's, you just need the correct HQ.
-I don't care about the competing, I will only take one of them.
-Why do you think RG doesn't have Divination?
-Sang Priests are the only loss. But RG have so much to make up for it.
Right now ASM can not score. Maybe when a supplement drops, but right now Raven Guard get stealth and the ability to use jump packs to move and charge that's it.
Maybe I'm forgetting about a FWHQ choice out there somewhere, but in the codex itself you can't take scoring Jump Infantry of any kind.
If you're going to cry at least make sure you get the rumors right.
EDIT: Oh, and Codex: Space Marines doesn't look like it's getting Divination (outside of Tigirus who can't be run in a Raven Guard army unless he's an attachement). Powers have been said to be unchanged from their selections in the past.
Just thought I'd poke that hole in your claims too.
Any aggrieved Raven Guard players: I will gladly put a $20 bill in my copy of C:BA and mail it to you in exchange for a copy of the upcoming C:SM. It is only slightly used. Once the new book comes out, I can't see why I'd need that floppy old thing anymore.
Stealth as a detachment wide rule, okay, fits the fluff, could be useful. If Tau aren't just bypassing your cover saves, or Eldar psykers Divining you out of it.
as a tau player, let me ask.... Why be upset about loosing your cover save when most of the weapons that ignore cover in beardy ways aren't even ap3? The only way to get ignores cover in the tau dex that chews up power armor is with markerlights, and they are VERY easilly killed out. Sure, some ignore cover plasma is nice, but its not that long range, the units that carry them are easy to kill, and the units that let us ignore cover with ap3 and up weapons are made of paper and dreams
-Except that it plays almost exactly like BA, but with cheaper units, more options and better special rules?
-Raven Guard can take scoring ASM's, you just need the correct HQ.
-I don't care about the competing, I will only take one of them.
-Why do you think RG doesn't have Divination?
-Sang Priests are the only loss. But RG have so much to make up for it.
With increased weapon upgrades to tac squads just like the DA have, bare bones marines are cheaper, but when given the same kit, they're relatively the same cost. As far as special rules, steatlh and improved jump packs isn't IMO worth the loss of FnP with Sang Priests.
ASM don't get scoring with any HQ in CSM.
I'm not upset about losing the cover save, I'm just not putting much stock in it. The rumors still favor sternguard over vanguard, and though ASM are getting cheaper, they're still plain old ASM. So considering the jump pack specialization won't come into play if you don't use them. The stealth rule is all you get. If that can be negated by markerlights, then you get stomped by plasma toting crisis suits, wouldn't BAFnP be better?
Sternguard vs Vanguard competition - I'd agree with you, I'd only be playing the Sternguard as per the rumors. Which sadly negates the primary RG trait. I'm disappointed that the rumors aren't giving me any indication that I'll have any reason to play Vanguard with it. Perhaps they'll have cheap weapon upgrades, but I really don't think that'll be enough to make me take them over the Sternguard. The loss of Heroic Intervention hurts them quite a bit.
RG don't have access to Divination in the current CSM, nor in the psyker deck chart.
I'm sure the CSM will do just fine, this isn't a complaint that my codex sucks. I've been playing my RG as BA throughout 5th and so far the entirety of 6th. They do just fine. I'm just saying that looking at the rumors there doesn't seem to be much in it that would make me want to play my RG with it rather than the BA dex. At least with the BA dex I can play a Steel Rain list built on Sternguard with a bit of Vanguard in support. Unless there is something very cool in Shrikes comments listed as ???? in the rumor link.
-Except that it plays almost exactly like BA, but with cheaper units, more options and better special rules?
-Raven Guard can take scoring ASM's, you just need the correct HQ.
-I don't care about the competing, I will only take one of them.
-Why do you think RG doesn't have Divination?
-Sang Priests are the only loss. But RG have so much to make up for it.
With increased weapon upgrades to tac squads just like the DA have, bare bones marines are cheaper, but when given the same kit, they're relatively the same cost. As far as special rules, steatlh and improved jump packs isn't IMO worth the loss of FnP with Sang Priests.
ASM don't get scoring with any HQ in CSM.
Sternguard vs Vanguard competition - I'd agree with you, I'd only be playing the Sternguard as per the rumors. Which sadly negates the primary RG trait. I'm disappointed that the rumors aren't giving me any indication that I'll have any reason to play Vanguard with it. Perhaps they'll have cheap weapon upgrades, but I really don't think that'll be enough to make me take them over the Sternguard. The loss of Heroic Intervention hurts them quite a bit.
RG don't have access to Divination in the current CSM, nor in the psyker deck chart.
I'm sure the CSM will do just fine, this isn't a complaint that my codex sucks. I'm just saying that looking at the rumors there doesn't seem to be much in it that would make me want to play my RG with it rather than the BA dex. At least with the BA dex I can play a Steel Rain list built on Sternguard with a bit of Vanguard in support. Unless there is something very cool in Shrikes comments listed as ???? in the rumor link.
Main Ravenguard trait? Have you even read the fluff? They're a codex affiliated chapter, their main battle companies are still 6 TAC, 2 ASM, 2 DEVS, yeah they are more stealthy but that doesn't make them jump pack crazy.
Don't complain that you can't play your army in what you consider the most powerful build and then try to justify it by being 'against the chapters main traits' as you are playing them wrong if you try and spam jump packs. Very wrong.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Main Ravenguard trait? Have you even read the fluff? They're a codex affiliated chapter, their main battle companies are still 6 TAC, 2 ASM, 2 DEVS, yeah they are more stealthy but that doesn't make them jump pack crazy.
Don't complain that you can't play your army in what you consider the most powerful build and then try to justify it by being 'against the chapters main traits' as you are playing them wrong if you try and spam jump packs. Very wrong.
The Raven Guard are getting stealth and some form of jump pack specialization as their Codex Traits correct? Thats what I was commenting on. Jump pack specialization is one of their traits "rumored in the codex coming out next month" but I'm not seeing any reason to bring any jump pack troops. Vanguard on the cheap will still be underwhelming, add in that they now compete with Sternguard for a slot and lost Heroic Intervention.
I'm not complaining that the RG aren't getting "the most powerful build" (all jump packs, most powerful, really?) I'm just saying that the codex from a RG point of view is underwhelming and I'm more likely to continue to play them with my BA dex. In that context, I'm disappointed with the rumors I've seen so far. Though like I've said before, I understand they're rumors, yada yada yada. Just doesn't look promising from a RG point of view. BA may like it flipped, but IMO, BA can take units with the new CSM dex I'd never play with my RG. Which BTW, I run with all drop pods, I don't spam ASM, I run them on foot. Was hoping for a reason to bring some packers into the list again.
Kangodo wrote: Korvydae, Google that name.
He's an hq and makes them scoring.
Many (most?) people in casual games or tournament settings that I know of don't play with FW, so that's not quite good enough.
That's not my problem.
If they houserule that FW is banned, you could try to houserule that asm are troops?
Congrats, he's not a codex HQ, as mentioned, and we don't know if he'll change dut to FW errata. Futhermore he's a FW option meaning your average player needs to know about him, have the appropiate rules for him AND be in an area that allows FW.
So no, he doesn't make your statement automatically correct for all players, just some.
And ASM can't take Melta in C:SM so they still need help from other non-jump units crack tanks open so they can get to the gooey insides.
Raven Guard fluff is quite different than the "jump pack heavy in-your-face black armored Blood Angels" that we sometimes see.
They rely on scouts quite a bit. They don't field huge scout armies, they do have recruitment problems per fluff. But they do rely on scouts and use them to inflitrate and call in precision strikes.
They are in fact a Codex chapter, and use all the 6/2/2 force org in each appropriate company. Scouts will be able to call in the appropriate forces needed draving from all tactical options that best fit the situation.
Jump Packs are one of their things, but it's not the "overwhelming angels of death raining from the sky" thing. It's a precision guerilla small unit "get in and get out" kind of attack.
Vanguard vets look like they give us an option for a proper "Shrike Wing".
The new codex looks like it gives us a lot of options for a proper fluffy Raven Guard army. Raven Guard fluff does not make them black armored Blood Angels though.
Edit: saw your post above and will try to reply to some of your concerns in a minute.
d-usa wrote: Raven Guard fluff is quite different than the "jump pack heavy in-your-face black armored Blood Angels" that we sometimes see.
They rely on scouts quite a bit. They don't field huge scout armies, they do have recruitment problems per fluff. But they do rely on scouts and use them to inflitrate and call in precision strikes.
They are in fact a Codex chapter, and use all the 6/2/2 force org in each appropriate company. Scouts will be able to call in the appropriate forces needed draving from all tactical options that best fit the situation.
Jump Packs are one of their things, but it's not the "overwhelming angels of death raining from the sky" thing. It's a precision guerilla small unit "get in and get out" kind of attack.
Vanguard vets look like they give us an option for a proper "Shrike Wing".
The new codex looks like it gives us a lot of options for a proper fluffy Raven Guard army. Raven Guard fluff does not make them blackarmored Blood Angels though.
Exalted for good points.
Also Scouts have stealth for free, that's pretty cool.
The Raven Guard are getting stealth and some form of jump pack specialization as their Codex Traits correct? Thats what I was commenting on. Jump pack specialization is one of their traits "rumored in the codex coming out next month" but I'm not seeing any reason to bring any jump pack troops. Vanguard on the cheap will still be underwhelming, add in that they now compete with Sternguard for a slot and lost Heroic Intervention.
I don't think they are a jump pack army focused, or that the CT is trying to make them one. All Chapter Traits seem to boost one aspect of each Chapter, not every unit.
I think once we see the exact funcion of the Jump Pack rules for RG we will know a bit more. How many Elite slots are you usually using?
I think just as some of the other traits are similar (making tactical marines better, or devastators better), so our chapter trait makes a unit (or two) of jump pack troops better. It doesn't mean that we should take all jump pack marines though.
I'm not complaining that the RG aren't getting "the most powerful build" (all jump packs, most powerful, really?) I'm just saying that the codex from a RG point of view is underwhelming and I'm more likely to continue to play them with my BA dex. In that context, I'm disappointed with the rumors I've seen so far. Though like I've said before, I understand they're rumors, yada yada yada. Just doesn't look promising from a RG point of view. BA may like it flipped, but IMO, BA can take units with the new CSM dex I'd never play with my RG. Which BTW, I run with all drop pods, I don't spam ASM, I run them on foot. Was hoping for a reason to bring some packers into the list again.
I think the codex is pretty good. It makes scouts more viable (which are an important aspect of RG fluff). They are more survivable with an improved armor safe, they have a dedicated transport option now (which also helps with calling in your deep striking pods or Assault Marines) which also frees up a Fast Attack spot if you have been using it.
And part of it might just be a difference in fluff perspective. I've never thought of Raven Guard as a Steel Rain or Jump Pack heavy force, it just doesn't seem to meet that hit-and-run warfare style of the fluff.
d-usa wrote: Raven Guard fluff is quite different than the "jump pack heavy in-your-face black armored Blood Angels" that we sometimes see.
They rely on scouts quite a bit. They don't field huge scout armies, they do have recruitment problems per fluff. But they do rely on scouts and use them to inflitrate and call in precision strikes.
They are in fact a Codex chapter, and use all the 6/2/2 force org in each appropriate company. Scouts will be able to call in the appropriate forces needed draving from all tactical options that best fit the situation.
Jump Packs are one of their things, but it's not the "overwhelming angels of death raining from the sky" thing. It's a precision guerilla small unit "get in and get out" kind of attack.
Vanguard vets look like they give us an option for a proper "Shrike Wing".
The new codex looks like it gives us a lot of options for a proper fluffy Raven Guard army. Raven Guard fluff does not make them black armored Blood Angels though.
Edit: saw your post above and will try to reply to some of your concerns in a minute.
Like I said in my original post, my RG are Scouts/Pods/Packs. I'm fully aware of their fluff, 6/2/2 and all that. Vanguard have always been a good option for a Shrike Wing, though he could never join it for Heroic Intervention. They may be cheaper now, but with the loss of HI, I don't see them lasting all that long. Tooled up they'll be a point sink that can infiltrate, and are a great candidate for First Blood, maybe Slay the Warlord as well? I'm hoping that Shrike has more to him than allowing the unit he joins to infiltrate. There might be a saving grace in the ???? on the rumor page. I'm getting worried though.
As a BA player, I am excited for this release for three reasons.
1: My allied detachment is getting new models and new rules. I take a Vanilla Chapter master, so the buff to that model is a plus for me.
2: New models for kitbashing look awesome. Ebay bits for the win.
3: It gives me a good feeling about the content of my next codex. Honestly, I've adapted to 6th at this point , so there is no rush for a new BA codex. I'm sure not everyone would agree on that point though.
-I used to play BT. Honestly, I am OK with them being rolled into the new Vanilla codex. An update now is better than waiting years and getting a WD rewrite *cough Sisters Cough*.
And part of it might just be a difference in fluff perspective. I've never thought of Raven Guard as a Steel Rain or Jump Pack heavy force, it just doesn't seem to meet that hit-and-run warfare style of the fluff.
My beef isn't with the CT, I'm just disappointed that the jump pack units themselves are underwhelming (again). Which makes the CT basically, underwhelming. I was hoping that we'd be able to somehow take jump pack command squads, not because they're super powerful, just that they've been in the RG fluff for a long time. If the jump pack spec works like the rumor says (jump 12" in the movement phase AND get your hammer of wrath in the assault as I read it) do you really see that making jump infantry of any kind viable? It's still 6ed, I'll give it a run or ten, but I don't see it making any combination of jump infantry better than sternguard in a pod. That's disappointing.
My scouts just camp objectives, so the LSS doesn't do them much good. Thats my choice though, I like the change to the LSS, just probably won't use it regardless. Don't they already get stealth? Or is that with just cloaks, don't remember ATM.
As far as the notion that RG are a Steel Rain force by the fluff. RG are a combo of Scout, Pod and Jump Infantry. With the 5ed dex and arrival of sternguard, you'd have to include them as well. Sadly 6ed just isn't friendly to the lowly ASM, and I'm thinking Vanguard will be a lot like Warp Talons if their weapon upgrades cost as much as they do currently. And the last bit, about the command squads, was what started me down the road of playing my RG as BA in the first place. I was disappointed when the RGIA article was countermanded by the CSM.
From the Lexicanum: The Raven Guard are known for hitting weak points in enemy defences hard and they perform lightning strike upon locations of tactical importance to cripple their enemy. The Raven Guard disdain the notion of recklessly charging into enemy ranks. This differentiates their tactics from those of the Blood Angels. The Raven Guard rely heavily on their Scouts for pinpointing enemy positions and to scout for good drop sites. Because of their hit and run tactics they also make extensive use of Assault Squads. The Tactical Squads of the Raven Guard are often deployed via Thunderhawks or Drop Pods. The favorite weapons of the Raven Guard Commanders are the Lightning Claws and it is a common sight that their command squads also come equiped with these weapons in addition to their Jump Packs.
Actually, the assault variants are potentially pretty goddamn sick (2 base + 1 apparently from two specialist weapons = 3 attacks at S9 AP2 at I4). Doesn't make 'em any less silly-looking, though. And one can hope the two arms only count as a single weapon so it's only the 2 base attacks, but seems like a slim hope.
But as I've said, they have slow and purposeful, have no ++ save, and can't be deepstriked. That means you NEED a Land Raider for them to be of any use, which means for the whole unit + LR, you're looking at 440 points minimum! You might as well just take Hammernators.
The hammernators greatly benefit from a LR too. Otherwise they'll just get shot before getting where they were going or get a mishap teleporting in, even if they might survive getting shot at afterwards. Which isn't a given considering the mad amount of AP2 some armies can put out these days. Of course it's not a given the LR will survive either. But the overall point is the assault centurions can be damn brutal once they get into combat.
Yep, Heresy Online is out for me too, Database Error. Any chance of a repost?
EDIT: Nevermind, I've seen enough over on B&C - Special Characters are now locked to the Traits of their Chapter(ie, if you take Imperial Fists traits, your only SC options are Kantor and Lysander), and since Iron Hands don't get any Special Characters...
StarTrotter wrote: And I'm conflicted as to why I should even bother with the CSM codex when I can represent my World Eaters and Iron Warriors legion with the loyalist marine codex so much better (and if anyone calls it heresy I jsut look at them and ask them to rethink that phrase mwahaha!)
Nothing wrong with swapping a codex. C:CSM is made for those who want to field daemon engines and warp-tainted thingmajigs. As a 'traditional' Traitor Marine player, I've long appreciated C:SM/BA
Nut's Chiropractor wrote: As long as wysiwyg is taken into consideration and you let me know beforehand what army yer playin' (in terms of rules), I alright with codex jumping.
I have been doing this for years. My DIY uses a different Codex for each company
1st: Deathwing
2nd: Grey Knights
3rd: Dark Angels
4th: Blood Angels
5th-7th: Space Marines
8th-10th: Not worked out yet
This has worked out well as you could not mix Chapters. The only WYSIWYG issue I had was my Infernus Pistols in my second Assault Squad which we handled by just calling them Plasma Pistols when I was not using my Codex: Blood Angles.
So far it has worked out, but with the New Codex: Space Marines this might get complicated.
Grav Amp: Re-roll failed to-wounds and armor penetration for Grav weapons.
Must say, I'm glad none have more than 24" range, don't want anymore cries of from the xenos players.
I have to say, i really dislike those stats. There is simply no reason to use anything but grav guns. MEQ get owned by them, Xenos for the most part get owned by bolters, the rest get own by grav. They are too good against what our bolters cant handle.
Loyalist players cry if CSM players go balls to the wall competitive with helldrakes or blind fury lords on juggies with spawn. When CSM get bored of the small number of competitive builds and decide to use a loyalist's chapter's codex loyalists still cry. Too much QQ that's why we sacrafice loyalists to the dark gods.
SickSix wrote: I am pretty sure the combi weapons are modular. So you won't even be able to make one of each available. You will be able to make like, 2 and then have bits left over
I can't see GW doing modular combi-weapons, as that would both make them more complex, but not save much room over full combi-weapons. Looking at the pics, the place where you could possibly have a join between bolter base and combi-weapon part would leave an extremely narrow point between the stock/grip and the body/foregrip that would be very prone to breaking. I would imagine only 1 of each weapon in the kit before modular ones.
Apparently the Sternguard have 2 of each, and the Tactical Squad as 1 that is modular.
Really hope this is true, if only to finally stop all the eBay scalpers who charge $10+ for one combi-weapon
Hope its true, i would really like to cast a mold of it. A few cents of resin could make all the combi weapons i could ever wish for. Not to mention that if they are indeed modular, i could make good cast of the top (specialist) weapon component to use over a regular bolter, which is what i like, i dont like the bolter barrel getting downed to the grip of the gun, i rather have a modular specialist weapon attached to a regular bolter.
SickSix wrote: I am pretty sure the combi weapons are modular. So you won't even be able to make one of each available. You will be able to make like, 2 and then have bits left over
I can't see GW doing modular combi-weapons, as that would both make them more complex, but not save much room over full combi-weapons. Looking at the pics, the place where you could possibly have a join between bolter base and combi-weapon part would leave an extremely narrow point between the stock/grip and the body/foregrip that would be very prone to breaking. I would imagine only 1 of each weapon in the kit before modular ones.
Apparently the Sternguard have 2 of each, and the Tactical Squad as 1 that is modular.
Really hope this is true, if only to finally stop all the eBay scalpers who charge $10+ for one combi-weapon
Hope its true, i would really like to cast a mold of it. A few cents of resin could make all the combi weapons i could ever wish for. Not to mention that if they are indeed modular, i could make good cast of the top (specialist) weapon component to use over a regular bolter, which is what i like, i dont like the bolter barrel getting downed to the grip of the gun, i rather have a modular specialist weapon attached to a regular bolter.
I hate the GW combi weapons with the specialist weapon above the bolter. It makes no sense. Not to mention why is the combi-plas/grav/whatever so damn big and only one shot?
I plan on making proper combi weapons and making molds. I have the little casting starter set sitting on the shelf.
SickSix wrote: I am pretty sure the combi weapons are modular. So you won't even be able to make one of each available. You will be able to make like, 2 and then have bits left over
I can't see GW doing modular combi-weapons, as that would both make them more complex, but not save much room over full combi-weapons. Looking at the pics, the place where you could possibly have a join between bolter base and combi-weapon part would leave an extremely narrow point between the stock/grip and the body/foregrip that would be very prone to breaking. I would imagine only 1 of each weapon in the kit before modular ones.
Apparently the Sternguard have 2 of each, and the Tactical Squad as 1 that is modular.
Really hope this is true, if only to finally stop all the eBay scalpers who charge $10+ for one combi-weapon
Hope its true, i would really like to cast a mold of it. A few cents of resin could make all the combi weapons i could ever wish for. Not to mention that if they are indeed modular, i could make good cast of the top (specialist) weapon component to use over a regular bolter, which is what i like, i dont like the bolter barrel getting downed to the grip of the gun, i rather have a modular specialist weapon attached to a regular bolter.
I hate the GW combi weapons with the specialist weapon above the bolter. It makes no sense. Not to mention why is the combi-plas/grav/whatever so damn big and only one shot?
I plan on making proper combi weapons and making molds. I have the little casting starter set sitting on the shelf.
To be fair...most meltagun only get one shot off anyways...
RandyMcStab wrote: When I try to access heresyonline I just get a 'database error' message? Maybe GW EMPed them?
Not likely, they only do that to the guy who is "first" to the leaks. Looks like the server went down for some reason.
lord_blackfang wrote: Can someone please copy/paste that stuff from Heresy Online? NOD32 does not like that webpage and I don't know how to get around it...
Not at the moment. Database errors are keeping all of us from getting in.
SickSix wrote: I am pretty sure the combi weapons are modular. So you won't even be able to make one of each available. You will be able to make like, 2 and then have bits left over
I can't see GW doing modular combi-weapons, as that would both make them more complex, but not save much room over full combi-weapons. Looking at the pics, the place where you could possibly have a join between bolter base and combi-weapon part would leave an extremely narrow point between the stock/grip and the body/foregrip that would be very prone to breaking. I would imagine only 1 of each weapon in the kit before modular ones.
Apparently the Sternguard have 2 of each, and the Tactical Squad as 1 that is modular.
Really hope this is true, if only to finally stop all the eBay scalpers who charge $10+ for one combi-weapon
Hope its true, i would really like to cast a mold of it. A few cents of resin could make all the combi weapons i could ever wish for. Not to mention that if they are indeed modular, i could make good cast of the top (specialist) weapon component to use over a regular bolter, which is what i like, i dont like the bolter barrel getting downed to the grip of the gun, i rather have a modular specialist weapon attached to a regular bolter.
I hate the GW combi weapons with the specialist weapon above the bolter. It makes no sense. Not to mention why is the combi-plas/grav/whatever so damn big and only one shot?
I plan on making proper combi weapons and making molds. I have the little casting starter set sitting on the shelf.
Same reason a portable grenade launcher attached to a gun in real life is 1 shot. The firing mechanism is there, but not the magazine, only the chamber and the ammunition on it. Same logic to combiweapons. Which make no sence is lowering the and compacting the barrel and receiver of the gun to the left hand grip and it functioning the same way. Either it does not or they are retards for not using more compact guns that have the same performance,
If you don't see the value of ASM being only 17 pts per model and using their JP in movement and assault you probably shouldn't be playing too competitively anyway. 10 TAC marines with a rhino are 175 naked, 10 ASM are 170 and don't give away FB, move equally as fast, can deep strike and are decent in assault. That's right, decent, considering you will or if your playing right with a JP move and assault should be assaulting and are now getting a potential +10 free HITS at I10 which is better then if they said RG ASM have rage. A free hit at S4 is the equivalent of +2 attacks on the charge or ie Rage. Considering you get that hit at I10 it's flat out better then rage against anything with the exception of tau, which you should shred anyway, actually you want the combat to last to their turn if you know how to play well. Oh knows you will need to field other scoring units! Maybe take scouts in a LS storm comsidering the speder will gain stealth as well meaning it has a 4++ just fopr drifting and the cerberus launcher is now 18" range large blast and BLIND! meaning you can weaken your opponent from a support role.
xxvaderxx wrote: Which make no sence is lowering the and compacting the barrel and receiver of the gun to the left hand grip and it functioning the same way. Either it does not or they are retards for not using more compact guns that have the same performance,
It makes perfect sense. They have the STCs to make combi-weapons, and they have the STCs to make bolters, but they don't have the STC to make just the bolter portion of the combi-weapon and a more compact weapon as a result.
Alternately: The Imperium is indeed full of technological retards.
I never really cared for mass combi-weapons on the Sternguard. I took them for the special ammo, and maybe 1 or 2 combi-meltas but otherwise it felt like way to much of a point sink. Although if they are cheaper now I may do it differently.
Grav Amp: Re-roll failed to-wounds and armor penetration for Grav weapons.
Must say, I'm glad none have more than 24" range, don't want anymore cries of from the xenos players.
I have to say, i really dislike those stats. There is simply no reason to use anything but grav guns. MEQ get owned by them, Xenos for the most part get owned by bolters, the rest get own by grav. They are too good against what our bolters cant handle.
Its really way too situational to be considered broken. It only fires effectively from centurions and with a 30" threat range things like WK's can easily stay back and shoot from 36 with stock weapons that ID them, riptides can out range them even easier, both are MUCH faster as well. Grav weapons just stop such things from being spammed and rolling over us while we watch helplessly.
ClockworkZion wrote: On another forum someone noted that the DA Camo Cloaks just add +1 to cover. With the RG Stealth that gives their Scouts a +2 to their cover....
Or a 2+ in Ruins without going to ground.
You mean like what you could do with Telion already?
ClockworkZion wrote: On another forum someone noted that the DA Camo Cloaks just add +1 to cover. With the RG Stealth that gives their Scouts a +2 to their cover....
Or a 2+ in Ruins without going to ground.
You mean like what you could do with Telion already?
You mean at the discount of not having to buy telion or the flexibility to do it twice?
EDIT Twice because he is UM so no go with RG from rumors so far.
Holy hell i think i found a viable use for Flakk missles finally. Imperial and Crimson fists devistators with 4 ML hav a decent shot taking out flyers even if the missles are strength 7. Tank Hunters makes paying 40 points for the missles make sense.
Atleast it does to me, the new AA tanks are only strength 7 anyways.
Grav Amp: Re-roll failed to-wounds and armor penetration for Grav weapons.
Must say, I'm glad none have more than 24" range, don't want anymore cries of from the xenos players.
I have to say, i really dislike those stats. There is simply no reason to use anything but grav guns. MEQ get owned by them, Xenos for the most part get owned by bolters, the rest get own by grav. They are too good against what our bolters cant handle.
Its really way too situational to be considered broken. It only fires effectively from centurions and with a 30" threat range things like WK's can easily stay back and shoot from 36 with stock weapons that ID them, riptides can out range them even easier, both are MUCH faster as well. Grav weapons just stop such things from being spammed and rolling over us while we watch helplessly.
They are not situational at all, they handle what your bolters can not handle, when was the last time you brought a heavy bolter over a misile launcher just in case you run into okrs?, me never, my regular bolters do the job just fine and my ML addresses things my bolters can not, i dont bring specialist weapons to do what i already do just a little bit better. Why only from centurions?. 18" range on moving infantry firing 2 shots a turn, outside rapid fire range, is where most marine armies live. The only thing i dont know is how they work against Vehicles, but regardless, i would seem that i will be playing my wolves as Ultras with the tactical trait. The only question is if they will still have Combat tactics which would make them golden and depending on the rules against vehicles its either spam double grav or grav missile on tactical for massive twin linked action. The only thing i can imagine making them not such an obvious choice would be a higher/prohibitive point cost, which since GW will want to sell them i doubt its the case.
ClockworkZion wrote: On another forum someone noted that the DA Camo Cloaks just add +1 to cover. With the RG Stealth that gives their Scouts a +2 to their cover....
Or a 2+ in Ruins without going to ground.
You mean like what you could do with Telion already?
You mean at the discount of not having to buy telion or the flexibility to do it twice?
EDIT Twice because he is UM so no go with RG from rumors so far.
I meant during the current book, 5th edition.
It's not exactly a new and exciting thing for scouts to be terminators in cover.
If the price point of $30 is accurate, these better have a lot of options on the sprue. I like the models overall (would ditch the cherub on the librarian) but consider them on par with the new $20 farseer. I hope whoever got these prices was looking at canadian/australian/other prices, not USD.
If the monopose Tau fireblade with no extra bits at all at $20 is any indication (and it's less power in game and we know how GW likes to price things in $$ proportional to how good they are on the tabletop), it'll be $30.
Monopose models with useless equipment seem to be GW's thing for 6th. Who wants a combi melta these days(combi plas are better and rarer)
who takes a power axe? And it isnt like CSM are hurting for champion figures. 20 years of great HQ models make awesoem champions and they currently cost less. http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440207a&rootCatGameStyle=
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StarTrotter wrote: And I'm conflicted as to why I should even bother with the CSM codex when I can represent my World Eaters and Iron Warriors legion with the loyalist marine codex so much better (and if anyone calls it heresy I jsut look at them and ask them to rethink that phrase mwahaha!)
trade a heldrake for a codex that can actually represent the legion you want, with rules that dont conflict with themselves.
CSM are all going to start following the Codex Astartes!
StarTrotter wrote: And I'm conflicted as to why I should even bother with the CSM codex when I can represent my World Eaters and Iron Warriors legion with the loyalist marine codex so much better (and if anyone calls it heresy I jsut look at them and ask them to rethink that phrase mwahaha!)
But just think of all the great things codex chaos gives us!
heldrakes!
dinobots!
...heldrakes!
But yeah real talk as a long time ex IW player it's a real bummer to see that loyalist SM will remain miles ahead in the shooting department for another half decade.
I mean honestly, how hard would loyalist players (actually probably everyone) laugh if the CSM book came out with a rumored option that said troop CSM reroll misses for the cost of *fething nothing*? Oh right but CSM got hatred vs SM in close combat so that's just as good right
You know, you have to pay 10% more for hatred marines, it only works on marines, only in close combat, and only on the first round.
but it gives you +1 LD, which is great, because your guys dont ATSKNF!
That figure is still Awesome no matter what it has itself armed with. But I too dislike the idea of fixed gear HQ's considering most space marine captains and chapter masters are armed with swords that are mostly useless now.
Brother Sergeant Bob wrote: Holy hell i think i found a viable use for Flakk missles finally. Imperial and Crimson fists devistators with 4 ML hav a decent shot taking out flyers even if the missles are strength 7. Tank Hunters makes paying 40 points for the missles make sense.
Atleast it does to me, the new AA tanks are only strength 7 anyways.
Exactly. People are claiming that tank hunters are uselsess, but its extremely rare for someone to field a totally vehicle-free army. With tank hunters for flakk missils and a quad gun you are negatimg what makes things like the heldrake and vendetta so tough: their av12. I can't count the number of times I've shot flakk and quad gun rounds at a helturkey only to roll 3&4's. Witj those rerolls your devs are gonna be nasty.
On another topic, I really hope scout shotguns get a change/buff. I have a squad of Ultramarine shotty scouts who are beggimg to be useful.
The 2 other space marine players at my FLGS are going to be upset that they won't be able to use Telion in their IF, and Salamanders armies. Guess their Telion models will be used as just generic sergeants.
xxvaderxx wrote: Which make no sence is lowering the and compacting the barrel and receiver of the gun to the left hand grip and it functioning the same way. Either it does not or they are retards for not using more compact guns that have the same performance,
It makes perfect sense. They have the STCs to make combi-weapons, and they have the STCs to make bolters, but they don't have the STC to make just the bolter portion of the combi-weapon and a more compact weapon as a result.
Alternately: The Imperium is indeed full of technological retards.
maybe they dont have the same performance
maybe combi bolters, bolter part has a slightly lower RoF, or is much more expensive, or is slightly less accurate, or less reliable.
StarTrotter wrote: And I'm conflicted as to why I should even bother with the CSM codex when I can represent my World Eaters and Iron Warriors legion with the loyalist marine codex so much better (and if anyone calls it heresy I jsut look at them and ask them to rethink that phrase mwahaha!)
Nothing wrong with swapping a codex. C:CSM is made for those who want to field daemon engines and warp-tainted thingmajigs. As a 'traditional' Traitor Marine player, I've long appreciated C:SM/BA
I think that is half of the hate coming from CSM players. Half of them dont want to field a bunch of warp tainted craptastic assault units and daemon engines. They want legions of marines. BasicallyC:evilSM, not C:possessed and dinobots.
So one of the rumors is a confirmation that you can ally C:SM with one CT to another C:SM with a different CT. I *think* I like that, but I'm not sure. It would allow me to use rules for two chapters out of the book, which is nice, and if I want to play with more than two I can always just do what I had to do before and put them all into a single instance of C:SM. The only time it would get really awkward would be if I want to field my BT along with a mixed codex force.
I think we all like to think that alliances in 40k occur more often than they really do...BT and IG aside, because there's so many of them that they're bound to be fighting something at the same time as someone else.
trade a heldrake for a codex that can actually represent the legion you want, with rules that dont conflict with themselves.
CSM are all going to start following the Codex Astartes!
So its a codex with mediocre units but a few rules that make the mediocre bread and butter models better (rerolling) vs a codex with worse bread and butter units but that has very OP things everybody takes like nurgle oblits, helldrakes, etc?
Lansirill wrote: So one of the rumors is a confirmation that you can ally C:SM with one CT to another C:SM with a different CT. I *think* I like that, but I'm not sure. It would allow me to use rules for two chapters out of the book, which is nice, and if I want to play with more than two I can always just do what I had to do before and put them all into a single instance of C:SM. The only time it would get really awkward would be if I want to field my BT along with a mixed codex force.
While I agree that I "think" I like it, I can also see it being ripe for abuse. Maybe GW did that on purpose, but I could see allying to get some tank hunter flakk missles while playing the chapter I want. Sit that on an quad-gun and it is time for fun.
Allying internally is pretty crazy. I'm a little sad that I won't be able to take Tigrius in a non-UM army but I can see how this would be broken as hell honestly so I'm ok with it.
I do like it if it's true that I can ally internally. The only reason if the costs are the same I would ally in DA's or something is for cheap units I get in the SM book anyway but might not have enough spots for. I am a little scared what I can do with the additonal slots though. Guess Tau and SM are the only ones who are so internally divergent they can ally with themselves.
StarTrotter wrote: And I'm conflicted as to why I should even bother with the CSM codex when I can represent my World Eaters and Iron Warriors legion with the loyalist marine codex so much better (and if anyone calls it heresy I jsut look at them and ask them to rethink that phrase mwahaha!)
Nothing wrong with swapping a codex. C:CSM is made for those who want to field daemon engines and warp-tainted thingmajigs. As a 'traditional' Traitor Marine player, I've long appreciated C:SM/BA
I think that is half of the hate coming from CSM players. Half of them dont want to field a bunch of warp tainted craptastic assault units and daemon engines. They want legions of marines. BasicallyC:evilSM, not C:possessed and dinobots.
How about possessed that actually don't suck? If they had given them Daemons of X I could've ran slaanesh daemons and used the extra run speed to boost them! Bring back the 3.5 possessed and allow me to buy the traits I want for my mutations. Not random crap, if I want jump pack possessed that use giant wings of warp. LET ME.
I mean the problem is they havn't fixed anything within the codex much. Noise marines got good, Plague marines are still on top, CSM are still inferior to C:SM (that 1 point now will be giving ASTKNF and free bonus abilities!).
The only good daemons are obliterators, there's nothing to help the assault portion of the army, no cheap assault vehicles, no interesting rules to get them closer, nothing to help!.
Ironwill13791 wrote: The 2 other space marine players at my FLGS are going to be upset that they won't be able to use Telion in their IF, and Salamanders armies. Guess their Telion models will be used as just generic sergeants.
If that is what they did to this codex I am dissapointed as well.
That leaves a small list of heroes for anyone else to use compared to other books. Counts as was just fine as a rule. I never gave a darn about the fluff for the character, just what the guy could do on the field. I would make them a count as for my army and move on.
Making me play a particular chapter and rules to use certain characters is not cool. Its also just bad game design if they are trying to avoid mixing rules that may make an army really good.
Ironwill13791 wrote: The 2 other space marine players at my FLGS are going to be upset that they won't be able to use Telion in their IF, and Salamanders armies. Guess their Telion models will be used as just generic sergeants.
If that is what they did to this codex I am dissapointed as well.
That leaves a small list of heroes for anyone else to use compared to other books. Counts as was just fine as a rule. I never gave a darn about the fluff for the character, just what the guy could do on the field. I would make them a count as for my army and move on.
Making me play a particular chapter and rules to use certain characters is not cool. Its also just bad game design if they are trying to avoid mixing rules that may make an army really good.
Ironwill13791 wrote: The 2 other space marine players at my FLGS are going to be upset that they won't be able to use Telion in their IF, and Salamanders armies. Guess their Telion models will be used as just generic sergeants.
If that is what they did to this codex I am dissapointed as well.
That leaves a small list of heroes for anyone else to use compared to other books. Counts as was just fine as a rule. I never gave a darn about the fluff for the character, just what the guy could do on the field. I would make them a count as for my army and move on.
Making me play a particular chapter and rules to use certain characters is not cool. Its also just bad game design if they are trying to avoid mixing rules that may make an army really good.
SM have so many characters its not even funny.
If you play Ultra Marines. If you restrict access to certain rules the list dwindles to one or two at most.
Grav Amp: Re-roll failed to-wounds and armor penetration for Grav weapons.
Must say, I'm glad none have more than 24" range, don't want anymore cries of from the xenos players.
I have to say, i really dislike those stats. There is simply no reason to use anything but grav guns. MEQ get owned by them, Xenos for the most part get owned by bolters, the rest get own by grav. They are too good against what our bolters cant handle.
Its really way too situational to be considered broken. It only fires effectively from centurions and with a 30" threat range things like WK's can easily stay back and shoot from 36 with stock weapons that ID them, riptides can out range them even easier, both are MUCH faster as well. Grav weapons just stop such things from being spammed and rolling over us while we watch helplessly.
They are not situational at all, they handle what your bolters can not handle, when was the last time you brought a heavy bolter over a misile launcher just in case you run into okrs?, me never, my regular bolters do the job just fine and my ML addresses things my bolters can not, i dont bring specialist weapons to do what i already do just a little bit better. Why only from centurions?. 18" range on moving infantry firing 2 shots a turn, outside rapid fire range, is where most marine armies live. The only thing i dont know is how they work against Vehicles, but regardless, i would seem that i will be playing my wolves as Ultras with the tactical trait. The only question is if they will still have Combat tactics which would make them golden and depending on the rules against vehicles its either spam double grav or grav missile on tactical for massive twin linked action. The only thing i can imagine making them not such an obvious choice would be a higher/prohibitive point cost, which since GW will want to sell them i doubt its the case.
You do know what are rules for salvo? Because seems you don't. Here,I will qote it for you from rulebook.
Amodel armed with a Salvo weapon can move and fire at a target up to half its maximum range away.
So when you move with your 18'' gun you actually have 9'' range on it, which is 15'' total if you count 6'' move. Compare it to plasma gun, who has 30'' range(6'' moving + 24'' range) or even melta gun who then has 18'' range.
The new QnA has made White Scars fears go away for the most part. Looks like the poster a few pages back that speculated the 5 man Bike Troops thing was a minimum was right. And with Khan at only 125pts and the Captain at 90pts, taking both might be worth it for reasons other than making those Bikes Troops. Happy days
Godless-Mimicry wrote: The new QnA has made White Scars fears go away for the most part. Looks like the poster a few pages back that speculated the 5 man Bike Troops thing was a minimum was right. And with Khan at only 125pts and the Captain at 90pts, taking both might be worth it for reasons other than making those Bikes Troops. Happy days
Khan is 150 on the bike, and the Captain would be more than 90 with the bike and wargear...
Lobukia wrote: Am I missing the grav weapon's interaction with AVs on vehicles? Help guys, I'm just not seeing it, but I assume its in the rumor feed somewhere.
I believe it was mentioned earlier that Grav Weapons cause a vehicle to lose a hull point and be immobilized on a roll of a 6.
SickSix wrote: I am pretty sure the combi weapons are modular. So you won't even be able to make one of each available. You will be able to make like, 2 and then have bits left over
I can't see GW doing modular combi-weapons, as that would both make them more complex, but not save much room over full combi-weapons. Looking at the pics, the place where you could possibly have a join between bolter base and combi-weapon part would leave an extremely narrow point between the stock/grip and the body/foregrip that would be very prone to breaking. I would imagine only 1 of each weapon in the kit before modular ones.
Apparently the Sternguard have 2 of each, and the Tactical Squad as 1 that is modular.
Really hope this is true, if only to finally stop all the eBay scalpers who charge $10+ for one combi-weapon
Hope its true, i would really like to cast a mold of it. A few cents of resin could make all the combi weapons i could ever wish for. Not to mention that if they are indeed modular, i could make good cast of the top (specialist) weapon component to use over a regular bolter, which is what i like, i dont like the bolter barrel getting downed to the grip of the gun, i rather have a modular specialist weapon attached to a regular bolter.
I hate the GW combi weapons with the specialist weapon above the bolter. It makes no sense. Not to mention why is the combi-plas/grav/whatever so damn big and only one shot?
I plan on making proper combi weapons and making molds. I have the little casting starter set sitting on the shelf.
Same reason a portable grenade launcher attached to a gun in real life is 1 shot. The firing mechanism is there, but not the magazine, only the chamber and the ammunition on it. Same logic to combiweapons. Which make no sence is lowering the and compacting the barrel and receiver of the gun to the left hand grip and it functioning the same way. Either it does not or they are retards for not using more compact guns that have the same performance,
M203s and or their foreign equivalent are not 'one shot' weapons. They are single fire weapons. They fire a single round at a time, but can be reloaded over and over. A grenadier with easy access to a bandolier of shells can pump out some firepower.
GW's combi-guns apparently one [I] use [/] and then you are carrying around dead wieght.
Lobukia wrote: Am I missing the grav weapon's interaction with AVs on vehicles? Help guys, I'm just not seeing it, but I assume its in the rumor feed somewhere.
I know its been said already....but wow are those Centurions ugly. They're possibly the worst model ive seen GW release. When i heard about them i thought awesome its a marine in a power loader! Alas....i get this weird blocky suit that doesnt even look like it can actually function. shame on you GW for these guys and the khorne lord of skulls. /endrant
Medium of Death wrote: I quite like the idea of certain heroes only really being used with the Chapters they are from. Enforced fluff.
Didn't see this on looking through originally, but has there been any chatter about Sternguard being made troops through an HQ? (Probably Kantor)
And those of us with no special characters just have to lump it?
No, sorry, not on. If they want a super-special ability limited to a particular chapter, put it in their traits. If it's not super-special enough to be part of the chapter's traits, then either let people counts-as, or give generic HQ's access to those abilities for a points cost that would make them equivalent to the SCs.
Godless-Mimicry wrote: The new QnA has made White Scars fears go away for the most part. Looks like the poster a few pages back that speculated the 5 man Bike Troops thing was a minimum was right. And with Khan at only 125pts and the Captain at 90pts, taking both might be worth it for reasons other than making those Bikes Troops. Happy days
We're still paying about 300 points of "character tax" to get our scoring units back and aren't left with any room in HQ for a psyker, which does hurt.
But I will enjoy having better bikers than the Ravenwing at long last. Scouts, H&R, 4+ Jink, ignore dangerous terrain, bonus to impact hits...
Medium of Death wrote: I quite like the idea of certain heroes only really being used with the Chapters they are from. Enforced fluff.
Didn't see this on looking through originally, but has there been any chatter about Sternguard being made troops through an HQ? (Probably Kantor)
And those of us with no special characters just have to lump it?
No, sorry, not on. If they want a super-special ability limited to a particular chapter, put it in their traits. If it's not super-special enough to be part of the chapter's traits, then either let people counts-as, or give generic HQ's access to those abilities for a points cost that would make them equivalent to the SCs.
I would be happy if I didn't have to field a SC to get all the proper rules to represent my army. You complain about the opposite
Don't get me wrong, I'm disappointed to hear of no Iron Hands special characters but I'd rather see this than a plague of Vulkans/Lysanders sweeping across the 40k tabletops.
How hard would it have been to give the IH a dreadnought chapter master, or a terminator captain. Unfortunately GW are probably planning supplements for the neglected Chapters. Poor wallet.
*message messed up*
The gods of chaos and primarchs march forth in rage. "What have you been doing whilst we have been brooding in the darkness of the warp!? I-I'm sorry lord! But the codex Astartes are just too good.... and have you seen their well cared for blue armour? It's just radiant on the battlefield! "Isn't this heretical?" Yes, yes it is.
Medium of Death wrote: Don't get me wrong, I'm disappointed to hear of no Iron Hands special characters but I'd rather see this than a plague of Vulkans/Lysanders sweeping across the 40k tabletops.
How hard would it have been to give the IH a dreadnought chapter master, or a terminator captain. Unfortunately GW are probably planning supplements for the neglected Chapters. Poor wallet.
It will do very little to stop a plague of Vulkans or Lysanders. You can still play your Blue Vulkan or Red Lysander just fine. It will however do a fine job of preventing you from fielding your Green Vulkan with your Yellow Lysander unless you ally.
Godless-Mimicry wrote: The new QnA has made White Scars fears go away for the most part. Looks like the poster a few pages back that speculated the 5 man Bike Troops thing was a minimum was right. And with Khan at only 125pts and the Captain at 90pts, taking both might be worth it for reasons other than making those Bikes Troops. Happy days
We're still paying about 300 points of "character tax" to get our scoring units back and aren't left with any room in HQ for a psyker, which does hurt.
But I will enjoy having better bikers than the Ravenwing at long last. Scouts, H&R, 4+ Jink, ignore dangerous terrain, bonus to impact hits...
Medium of Death wrote: I quite like the idea of certain heroes only really being used with the Chapters they are from. Enforced fluff.
Didn't see this on looking through originally, but has there been any chatter about Sternguard being made troops through an HQ? (Probably Kantor)
And those of us with no special characters just have to lump it?
No, sorry, not on. If they want a super-special ability limited to a particular chapter, put it in their traits. If it's not super-special enough to be part of the chapter's traits, then either let people counts-as, or give generic HQ's access to those abilities for a points cost that would make them equivalent to the SCs.
I would be happy if I didn't have to field a SC to get all the proper rules to represent my army. You complain about the opposite
BREAKING NEWS: This just in, after months of intensive investigation by our Special Correspondent on the Blindingly Obvious, we can now report that people have different opinions
For example, you think the weakest possible FnP and an ability that only affects HQ and vehicles in a limited set of circumstances constitute "all the proper rules" to represent the Iron Hands, while just about every actual Iron Hands player who's piped up so far here and on rumour threads on other forums considers it a joke. And not a hilarious joke either, the sort of joke that your racist elderly relatives tell at family gatherings that just make everyone uncomfortable.
If we had multiple SCs and Traits as useful as the other Chapters, I'd happily give up counts-as characters, but we don't.
Ironwill13791 wrote: The 2 other space marine players at my FLGS are going to be upset that they won't be able to use Telion in their IF, and Salamanders armies. Guess their Telion models will be used as just generic sergeants.
To be rather honest I'm actually going to be sad about this. Whilst I am mainly a lover of chaos (both variants) and when not focused on that, opting to play guardsmen as I've always found them to be rather fascinating, I play a DIY chapter that uses Salamander Rules (hurray for the chapter that has no claimed successors but only rumoured ones) but I'd occasionally take somebody like Telion (and more often) Tigurius to represent my own members simply because you couldn't really make a scout company master and the sorts. This does really sadden me as that means pretty much UM get 3 choices of skills and then get multiple named characters whilst any Chapter besides a strict few (IF will have two because of Crimson Fists and BT having been understandably rolled in) will be stuck with one named character.
For all my frustrations and jealosies I am glad that they still made it possible to represent multiple chapters in a single army. I just wish they could expand that to other codeces that are supposed to represent other armies (IG, CSM, Eldar, etc.) I know that there is a chance that supplements will come in to increase diversity but it is still rather irritating that an army just gets page after page for all of these ideas when we get dinobots and a flying chicken of doom. Either way though, hopefully the SM codex answers a lot of your frustrations SM players! I know that SM have been a slightly sub-par codex for some time and hope it joins the relatively balanced (if some a bit worse and less internally balanced then others).
At the very least, there's no balance-related reason that characters without army-wide passives (Tigurius, Cassius, Telion, and Chronus) should be restricted to Smurfs.
Looks like we got Codex: Ultramarines afterall. I suppose I'll go pin all my hopes on supplements that will ultimately disappoint me.
Rayth Phaenor wrote: At the very least, there's no balance-related reason that characters without army-wide passives (Tigurius, Cassius, Telion, and Chronus) should be restricted to Smurfs.
From what I'm gathered they're just restricted to "Chapter Tactics (Ultramarines)" armies from the sound of things. Either way you can still ally them in, just make sure you paint -those- Marines blue.
Rayth Phaenor wrote: Looks like we got Codex: Ultramarines afterall. I suppose I'll go pin all my hopes on supplements that will ultimately disappoint me.
I disagree. GW has given us a pretty decent Chapter Traits system that prevents cherry picking characters to abuse the system they made.
MoD, IW get army wide 6+ FNP ,All Characters and vehicles get IWND. Plus Techmarines get a bonus +1 to Blessing of the Omnissiah.
Looks like I was a bit slow in posting..
Cheers guys. 6+ FNP is OK, not great though. 5+ would have been ideal. Slightly disappointed that there's no Preferred Enemy: Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines...
At the outset of the Heresy, Fulgrim - the Primarch of the Emperor's Children tried to turn Ferrus Manus to the side of the traitors. When Ferrus refused to side with the rebels, Fulgrim had his fleet launch a crippling attack on the Iron Hands vessels, although he could not bring himself to kill his brother. In the wake of this betrayal, Ferrus took as many of his veterans as he could onboard one of the few undamaged vessels to participate in the loyalist attack on Isstvan V. This proved to be a disaster when four of the supposedly loyal Legions turned on their allies, resulting in horrendous casualties amongst the Raven Guard and Salamanders Legions and the death of Ferrus Manus and his entire retinue. Rumors persist that Ferrus Manus's corpse was taken to Mars; the Iron Hands deny any such claims. The Iron Hands bear a grudge against all the participants of the Heresy: the traitors, for being weak enough to become corrupted, and the other loyalists, for not being strong enough to protect the Emperor.
Rayth Phaenor wrote: At the very least, there's no balance-related reason that characters without army-wide passives (Tigurius, Cassius, Telion, and Chronus) should be restricted to Smurfs.
From what I'm gathered they're just restricted to "Chapter Tactics (Ultramarines)" armies from the sound of things. Either way you can still ally them in, just make sure you paint -those- Marines blue.
Rayth Phaenor wrote: Looks like we got Codex: Ultramarines afterall. I suppose I'll go pin all my hopes on supplements that will ultimately disappoint me.
I disagree. GW has given us a pretty decent Chapter Traits system that prevents cherry picking characters to abuse the system they made.
*It claimed I had double posted so I edited the message only to find it had only sent one* TO summarize my post I feel that it still favours UM with vast options and diversity whilst leaving other armies in the dust from 3-4 named chars (BT), to IF (2), to RG, Sall (1), to Iron Hands (0).
Medium of Death wrote: Cheers guys. 6+ FNP is OK, not great though. 5+ would have been ideal. Slightly disappointed that there's no Preferred Enemy: Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines...
At the outset of the Heresy, Fulgrim - the Primarch of the Emperor's Children tried to turn Ferrus Manus to the side of the traitors. When Ferrus refused to side with the rebels, Fulgrim had his fleet launch a crippling attack on the Iron Hands vessels, although he could not bring himself to kill his brother. In the wake of this betrayal, Ferrus took as many of his veterans as he could onboard one of the few undamaged vessels to participate in the loyalist attack on Isstvan V. This proved to be a disaster when four of the supposedly loyal Legions turned on their allies, resulting in horrendous casualties amongst the Raven Guard and Salamanders Legions and the death of Ferrus Manus and his entire retinue. Rumors persist that Ferrus Manus's corpse was taken to Mars; the Iron Hands deny any such claims. The Iron Hands bear a grudge against all the participants of the Heresy: the traitors, for being weak enough to become corrupted, and the other loyalists, for not being strong enough to protect the Emperor.
Hatred: Fsck all 'yall.
I could buy it.
Incidentally are we now on page 108 based off of rumors from a single source? I imagine that the leaked photos are legitimate (except for the bad photoshop) but I haven't actually noticed anyone *confirming* any of these rumors... just lots of Space Marine players chattering, wishlisting, and chicken-littling.
Army wide? and IWND vehicles...that gives you free reign to go as vehicle or infantry heavy as you want...IH Predators, Vindicators, and Land Raiders just got a boost. Heck...I wonder if dreadnought benefit from one or the other?
Army wide? and IWND vehicles...that gives you free reign to go as vehicle or infantry heavy as you want...IH Predators, Vindicators, and Land Raiders just got a boost. Heck...I wonder if dreadnought benefit from one or the other?
I understand that a lot of the other CT may seem like they outshine outshine the IH, but a 6+ FNP is really amazing. Against standard anti-infantry fire you'll save quite a few extra wounds and its always nice to have that second save. At least you'll get to make a roll when the heldrakes come to flame you.
As far as people being angry about the ravenguard's traits, I have no idea where your rage is coming from. Like another poster mentioned, each trait has something that benefits the entire army and something that buffs a particular unit. Even the much hated ultramarine one that lets tactical squads reroll to hits only benefits tac marines, and the army as a whole gets to reroll ones. Always having stealth is fantastic, and will add a ton of survivability to every model in the army. Even that land raider sitting in the open will get a 6+.
Now it does suck that every chapter doesn't get a bunch of IC's.
Rayth Phaenor wrote: At the very least, there's no balance-related reason that characters without army-wide passives (Tigurius, Cassius, Telion, and Chronus) should be restricted to Smurfs.
From what I'm gathered they're just restricted to "Chapter Tactics (Ultramarines)" armies from the sound of things. Either way you can still ally them in, just make sure you paint -those- Marines blue.
Rayth Phaenor wrote: Looks like we got Codex: Ultramarines afterall. I suppose I'll go pin all my hopes on supplements that will ultimately disappoint me.
I disagree. GW has given us a pretty decent Chapter Traits system that prevents cherry picking characters to abuse the system they made.
*It claimed I had double posted so I edited the message only to find it had only sent one* TO summarize my post I feel that it still favours UM with vast options and diversity whilst leaving other armies in the dust from 3-4 named chars (BT), to IF (2), to RG, Sall (1), to Iron Hands (0).
It's a side-effect of having so many UM characters in the first place. At least we have more chapters being represented through characters thanks to 5th Ed than we used too.
Do we know if the combi-weapons on Sternguard are still only +5 points? I'm excited about their points cost reduction, but if I have to give it all back (and more) in 10 point combi-weapons, it'll be a drag.
Also, I'd gladly pay 100 points for my Libby still if I could have Null Zone. That's a huge loss.
And why the hell can't the IF Bolter Drill apply to Sternguard? It's still nowhere near as good as the Tactical Doctrine for the UM...
Everyone complaining that their chapter didn't get this or that, one word: supplements.
Like it or not that's the new model (cash cow) for GW. And some of us will wait a lot longer that others to get our favored (required) supplement. How else did you think they were going to fill the years between 6th and 7th edition if we get all the codices done in a year and a half.
Rayth Phaenor wrote: At the very least, there's no balance-related reason that characters without army-wide passives (Tigurius, Cassius, Telion, and Chronus) should be restricted to Smurfs.
From what I'm gathered they're just restricted to "Chapter Tactics (Ultramarines)" armies from the sound of things. Either way you can still ally them in, just make sure you paint -those- Marines blue.
Rayth Phaenor wrote: Looks like we got Codex: Ultramarines afterall. I suppose I'll go pin all my hopes on supplements that will ultimately disappoint me.
I disagree. GW has given us a pretty decent Chapter Traits system that prevents cherry picking characters to abuse the system they made.
*It claimed I had double posted so I edited the message only to find it had only sent one* TO summarize my post I feel that it still favours UM with vast options and diversity whilst leaving other armies in the dust from 3-4 named chars (BT), to IF (2), to RG, Sall (1), to Iron Hands (0).
It's a side-effect of having so many UM characters in the first place. At least we have more chapters being represented through characters thanks to 5th Ed than we used too.
Oh don't get me wrong. I entirely understand that factor and I'm glad to see a more equal represenation. I'm just saddened that characters like Telion supposedly cannot be brought in to represent a codex astatarates following/DIY/founding chapter's captain of the scouts and, admittedly biased, only one named librarian for UM.
Honestly anybody complaining about the chapter mechanics think about the chaos book. I (and I'm sure anybody else with a csm legion army collecting dust) would kill to have any amount of army wide legion specific rules...
This book sounds like it's going to be awesome. Ultramarines might end up the best based on what we know now, but all of the chapters seem viable.
Edit: To answer the question on the last page - both the new tanks are AA. One has 4 shots S7, one has 1 shot S7 AP2 Armorbane IIRC. Neither has interceptor though, so I can't imagine them having much use unless your local meta is dominated by flying stuff.
xxvaderxx wrote: Anyone know what what the new Hunter tank fires?, the AA one is rather luckluster.
One shot at 60" with S7 and AP2. But I think we are missing a rule, since it's higher in price than the Stalker with Heavy 4 and the possibility to split its fire.
Edit: Aah yes, armour bane! So it's almost a guaranteed penetrate while the other one needs 5+ to even glance AV12
I'm still waiting to see a rumor that says that the AA tanks actually have *skyfire*. It's entirely possible that they have a weird 'Fire at full ballistic skill against flying and non-flying' rule. Heck, it's possible that they can't even shoot at fliers at full BS. That'd be a bit surprising, but who the hell knows.
Lansirill wrote: I'm still waiting to see a rumor that says that the AA tanks actually have *skyfire*. It's entirely possible that they have a weird 'Fire at full ballistic skill against flying and non-flying' rule. Heck, it's possible that they can't even shoot at fliers at full BS. That'd be a bit surprising, but who the hell knows.
An anti-flyer model with one shot that only snap shots?
The rumours are pretty clear, you snapshot against ground-targets, which is quite fair if you consider the fact that they are 70 and 75 points per tank.
xxvaderxx wrote: Anyone know what what the new Hunter tank fires?, the AA one is rather luckluster.
One shot at 60" with S7 and AP2.
But I think we are missing a rule, since it's higher in price than the Stalker with Heavy 4 and the possibility to split its fire.
Edit: Aah yes, armour bane! So it's almost a guaranteed penetrate while the other one needs 5+ to even glance AV12
But the stalker is anti air, i dont think the hunter is AA, it does not like like it, looks more like an artillery piece on wheels.
Its good anti armor, dont get me wrong, but 1 shot?, does not seem all that grate, its not like we lack the means to take on armor, even 13 or better. I think we are either missing rules or it has to be something like 80 points or less to make it worth it, heck i would say less than 70. If it is anti air, then im getting one, just to give the hell chickens the finger.
Lansirill wrote: I'm still waiting to see a rumor that says that the AA tanks actually have *skyfire*. It's entirely possible that they have a weird 'Fire at full ballistic skill against flying and non-flying' rule. Heck, it's possible that they can't even shoot at fliers at full BS. That'd be a bit surprising, but who the hell knows.
Don't all the rumors confirm Skyfire?
It's Interceptor that they're lacking.
Q: Does the Stalker and Hunter have Skyfire? A: Yes, but they do not have interceptor.
Lansirill wrote: I'm still waiting to see a rumor that says that the AA tanks actually have *skyfire*. It's entirely possible that they have a weird 'Fire at full ballistic skill against flying and non-flying' rule. Heck, it's possible that they can't even shoot at fliers at full BS. That'd be a bit surprising, but who the hell knows.
Don't all the rumors confirm Skyfire?
It's Interceptor that they're lacking.
Q: Does the Stalker and Hunter have Skyfire?
A: Yes, but they do not have interceptor.
..........
I stand corrected, no way im fielding a Stalker, but what is the point cost of the hunter?.
By the way, lol this is broken as hell:
Tactical - The Tactical detachment re-rolls ones
So my terminators get to reroll armor saves of 1?. same for my assault squads including attack rolls. Pseudo twinlink devastors AND tanks?. Everything other than tacs get their save improved from 66% to 79%, only 5% worst than Terminators!!!
Crazyterran wrote: Khan is 150 on the bike, and the Captain would be more than 90 with the bike and wargear...
I know, but I'm talking about their base costs, which dropped 35pts and 10pts respectively along with Moondraken getting 15pts cheaper. This and the drop in the price of Bikes means having to take the second Captain probably won't cause your army to be any smaller.
xxvaderxx wrote:Anyone know what what the new Hunter tank fires?, the AA one is rather luckluster.
60", S7, AP2, Armorbane, Heavy 1, Skyfire
The Stalker is 48", S7, AP4, Heavy 4, Skyfire and has a rule that lets it shoot at 2 targets at a reduced BS.
wtwlf123 wrote:Aren't they both AA tanks?
They are, and neither has Interceptor.
Can they be upgraded to have it?. A dedicated platform with no skyfire is essentially going to get owned the turn those flyers come in, might as well leave it at home at get something that can actually do some harm.
If the Hunter gets interceptor for a reasonable price, i would get one, no chance im fielding one with out it.
Q: Do the AA tanks have to snapshot at ground targets (i.e. do they only have skyfire, but no interceptor?)
A: AA tanks do not have interceptor.
Q: Is there any unit or weapon in the new codex with Interceptor rule?
A: No
Q: Does the Stalker and Hunter have Skyfire?
A: Yes, but they do not have interceptor.
Q: Two small questions on the new tanks: what are their AV values? And do either of them have interceptor?
A: AV 12 12 10 and no interceptor, I repeat no interceptor.
Q: Do the AA tanks have to snapshot at ground targets (i.e. do they only have skyfire, but no interceptor?)
A: AA tanks do not have interceptor.
Q: Is there any unit or weapon in the new codex with Interceptor rule?
A: No
Q: Does the Stalker and Hunter have Skyfire?
A: Yes, but they do not have interceptor.
Q: Two small questions on the new tanks: what are their AV values? And do either of them have interceptor?
A: AV 12 12 10 and no interceptor, I repeat no interceptor.
Lol seems like most people are think the same "why do i want this gun if it can not fire at anything other than 3 or 4 things top and its going to get blown by those same things with out even firing its gun".
xxvaderxx wrote:Anyone know what what the new Hunter tank fires?, the AA one is rather luckluster.
60", S7, AP2, Armorbane, Heavy 1, Skyfire
The Stalker is 48", S7, AP4, Heavy 4, Skyfire and has a rule that lets it shoot at 2 targets at a reduced BS.
wtwlf123 wrote:Aren't they both AA tanks?
They are, and neither has Interceptor.
Can they be upgraded to have it?. A dedicated platform with no skyfire is essentially going to get owned the turn those flyers come in, might as well leave it at home at get something that can actually do some harm.
If the Hunter gets interceptor for a reasonable price, i would get one, no chance im fielding one with out it.
Why does every AA unit have to have interceptor? maybe the techmarines didn't figure that an AA tank neded to be firing on ground troops?
xxvaderxx wrote:Anyone know what what the new Hunter tank fires?, the AA one is rather luckluster.
60", S7, AP2, Armorbane, Heavy 1, Skyfire
The Stalker is 48", S7, AP4, Heavy 4, Skyfire and has a rule that lets it shoot at 2 targets at a reduced BS.
wtwlf123 wrote:Aren't they both AA tanks?
They are, and neither has Interceptor.
Can they be upgraded to have it?. A dedicated platform with no skyfire is essentially going to get owned the turn those flyers come in, might as well leave it at home at get something that can actually do some harm.
If the Hunter gets interceptor for a reasonable price, i would get one, no chance im fielding one with out it.
Not as far as I've heard so far. Good question, I'll ask it when they get through the 3-4 I've got pending!
Q: Do you have the points cost for AA tanks?
A: Stalker = 70, Hunter = 75
xxvaderxx wrote:Anyone know what what the new Hunter tank fires?, the AA one is rather luckluster.
60", S7, AP2, Armorbane, Heavy 1, Skyfire
The Stalker is 48", S7, AP4, Heavy 4, Skyfire and has a rule that lets it shoot at 2 targets at a reduced BS.
wtwlf123 wrote:Aren't they both AA tanks?
They are, and neither has Interceptor.
Can they be upgraded to have it?. A dedicated platform with no skyfire is essentially going to get owned the turn those flyers come in, might as well leave it at home at get something that can actually do some harm.
If the Hunter gets interceptor for a reasonable price, i would get one, no chance im fielding one with out it.
Why does every AA unit have to have interceptor? maybe the techmarines didn't figure that an AA tank neded to be firing on ground troops?
Because you dont need much to glance AV12 to death, and they got alpha strike on you, thats why.
Hooooooooold on for a second - is it true that a new Tac Marine will now cost 1 point more than a Necron Warrior despite having ATSKNF, 3+, better weapons, Combat Tactics, Sergeants, Doctrines etc.?
So, since there's conflicting information, does Accept Any Challenge give (rerolls to hit in combat) and (rending in challenges) or (rerolls to hit and rending in challenges)? I would so love to have the rerolls back. Frankly, without it Crusader Squads would STILL be worse than Grey Hunters, especially since Righteous Zeal and Rage no longer seems to be around (which isn't all bad, mind you).
Q: Do you have the points cost for AA tanks?
A: Stalker = 70, Hunter = 75
EDIT: Both tanks are 12/12/10.
Yeah, not cheap enought, how much did the quadguns and the icaurus cost?, neither gets blown up and both can fire against ground targets. Dont expect to see many of these on the table, may be 1 Hunter but thats it.
Sigvatr wrote: Hooooooooold on for a second - is it true that a new Tac Marine will now cost 1 point more than a Necron Warrior despite having ATSKNF, 3+, better weapons, Combat Tactics, Sergeants, Doctrines etc.?
oh my gosh! the thought of a unit costing more because it has better options?
It's an AA tank. It shouldn't have interceptor because then it could shoot at everything with normal BS. Which then makes it not so much dedicated AA but more just shoot at everything. That's what OTHER units are for i.e. Devastators, Centurians, and Predators.
Sigvatr wrote: Hooooooooold on for a second - is it true that a new Tac Marine will now cost 1 point more than a Necron Warrior despite having ATSKNF, 3+, better weapons, Combat Tactics, Sergeants, Doctrines etc.?
Necs get repair protocols and cheese against vehicles, marines dont.
Sigvatr wrote: Hooooooooold on for a second - is it true that a new Tac Marine will now cost 1 point more than a Necron Warrior despite having ATSKNF, 3+, better weapons, Combat Tactics, Sergeants, Doctrines etc.?
Yet they still get Re-animation protocols and glance vehicles on a 6, with a good transport.
It's still better then CSM's -1 point for nothing.
Sigvatr wrote: Hooooooooold on for a second - is it true that a new Tac Marine will now cost 1 point more than a Necron Warrior despite having ATSKNF, 3+, better weapons, Combat Tactics, Sergeants, Doctrines etc.?
oh my gosh! the thought of a unit costing more because it has better options?
Didn't know ATSKNF, Combat Tactics, 3+ and Sergeants are options.
GW really sticks to the plan to make new stuff or re-releases badly balanced on purpose, eh.
c0j1r0 wrote: It's an AA tank. It shouldn't have interceptor because then it could shoot at everything with normal BS. Which then makes it not so much dedicated AA but more just shoot at everything. That's what OTHER units are for i.e. Devastators, Centurians, and Predators.
With out interceptor it can not do its job period, av12 gets glanced to death far too easy.
Sigvatr wrote: Hooooooooold on for a second - is it true that a new Tac Marine will now cost 1 point more than a Necron Warrior despite having ATSKNF, 3+, better weapons, Combat Tactics, Sergeants, Doctrines etc.?
oh my gosh! the thought of a unit costing more because it has better options?
Didn't know ATSKNF, Combat Tactics, 3+ and Sergeants are options.
GW really sticks to the plan to make new stuff or re-releases badly balanced on purpose, eh.
Lol, yes they do, if you were impressed with that, they forgot to mention that now Ultramariness get twin linked free army wide as well.
Sigvatr wrote: Hooooooooold on for a second - is it true that a new Tac Marine will now cost 1 point more than a Necron Warrior despite having ATSKNF, 3+, better weapons, Combat Tactics, Sergeants, Doctrines etc.?
Necrons have similar statlines and get WBB though so that's kind of a wash. A closer comparison is to Sisters who are only 2 points cheaper and lose points in a wide range of stats and all the nifty rules for those two points.
Why are people acting like a lack of Interceptor necessarily precludes shooting at ground targets at full BS? Look at the Soulgrinder: the Harvester is one gun with two profiles, one is Skyfire, the other is not. I'm guessing the new tanks may have something similar, allowing them to freely alternate between Skyfiring and ground-firing.
Then again, at a rumored 70-75 points a pop...maybe not.
c0j1r0 wrote: It's an AA tank. It shouldn't have interceptor because then it could shoot at everything with normal BS. Which then makes it not so much dedicated AA but more just shoot at everything. That's what OTHER units are for i.e. Devastators, Centurians, and Predators.
At least it can still sit there and glance skimmers to death too. (im looking at you wave serpants)
The lack of interceptor is a bit annoying but good positioning should take care of it for the most part.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: So, since there's conflicting information, does Accept Any Challenge give (rerolls to hit in combat) and (rending in challenges) or (rerolls to hit and rending in challenges)? I would so love to have the rerolls back. Frankly, without it Crusader Squads would STILL be worse than Grey Hunters, especially since Righteous Zeal and Rage no longer seems to be around (which isn't all bad, mind you).
Accept All Challenges gives models in a challenge re-rolls to hit AND rending. Everyone gets Crusade and Adamantium will though.
And Crusade Squads can hide a power weapon on a normal Initiate in the squad.
c0j1r0 wrote: It's an AA tank. It shouldn't have interceptor because then it could shoot at everything with normal BS. Which then makes it not so much dedicated AA but more just shoot at everything. That's what OTHER units are for i.e. Devastators, Centurians, and Predators.
With out interceptor it can not do its job period, av12 gets glanced to death far too easy.
Sigvatr wrote: Hooooooooold on for a second - is it true that a new Tac Marine will now cost 1 point more than a Necron Warrior despite having ATSKNF, 3+, better weapons, Combat Tactics, Sergeants, Doctrines etc.?
oh my gosh! the thought of a unit costing more because it has better options?
Didn't know ATSKNF, Combat Tactics, 3+ and Sergeants are options.
GW really sticks to the plan to make new stuff or re-releases badly balanced on purpose, eh.
Lol, yes they do, if you were impressed with that, they forgot to mention that now Ultramariness get twin linked free army wide as well.
The WHOLE army doesn't get twin-linked. That's only Tactical Marines in the Tactical Trait. Everyone else re-rolls 1s.
whigwam wrote: Why are people acting like a lack of Interceptor necessarily precludes shooting at ground targets at full BS? Look at the Soulgrinder: the Harvester is one gun with two profiles, one is Skyfire, the other is not. I'm guessing the new tanks may have something similar, allowing them to freely alternate between Skyfiring and ground-firing.
Then again, at a rumored 70-75 points a pop...maybe not.
Unless you're talking about a storm bolter or a hunter-killer missile, then no. The weapon has skyfire, but not interceptor. If a weapon or unit has one but not the other, it uses snap-fire rules.
xxvaderxx wrote: With out interceptor it can not do its job period, av12 gets glanced to death far too easy.
So what? You just take two or three Because you can do that, since these things are only 70 or 75 points each.
People asking for Interceptor don't realise that it would also double the cost (or even more).
xxvaderxx wrote: But the stalker is anti air, i dont think the hunter is AA, it does not like like it, looks more like an artillery piece on wheels.
Do you have any idea how strong this would be if it didn't have Skyfire?
75 points, S7+2D6 against Land Raiders at 60" with a 33% chance to explode it on penetration (and it almost has a 42% chance to penetrate).
And I don't even want to think about my Necron-vehicles :( each hit has a 29% chance to let them explode.
Sure, it will do better against flyers but that means you are "screwed" if the opponent has no fliers. That is why it is only 75 points.
This thing would be too strong for normal vehicles, since almost everyone plays those.
Sigvatr wrote: Hooooooooold on for a second - is it true that a new Tac Marine will now cost 1 point more than a Necron Warrior despite having ATSKNF, 3+, better weapons, Combat Tactics, Sergeants, Doctrines etc.?
oh my gosh! the thought of a unit costing more because it has better options?
Didn't know ATSKNF, Combat Tactics, 3+ and Sergeants are options.
GW really sticks to the plan to make new stuff or re-releases badly balanced on purpose, eh.
Wait... a necron player who thinks his Warriors are worse than Tacticals What?! How? Every weapon you have can glance any vehicle, you have arguably the best transport in the game (Wave Serpent might get you), and you stand back up! Also, your unit isn't way worse if its understrength and you can run an IC in your transport without nerfing your entire squad... which can have 5 more models than a tactical squad and still be in your death-proof flying drop pod with awesome weapons. Go away silly person! Your glass isn't half empty, its three quarters full. Good lord, the BA/Necron/SW tears are making hypocrites and whiners out of so many players who still have it better than SM players for basically all of 5th editon, and if they wipe their eyes, they're still only a model or two per 1k points off the SM pace IF the rumors are all correct.
With out interceptor it can not do its job period, av12 gets glanced to death far too easy.
so don't leave it in the open in range of everything?
Give the enemies something else to worry about?
Sure av 12 isn't the hardest nut to crack, if that's all you are going for, and are in range of it... and yea there are games it will die before it does it's job... but that's the game... when it lives and shoots down the fliers that are wrecking havoc on your army (helldtakes etc) then it's 75 points well spent...
The WHOLE army doesn't get twin-linked. That's only Tactical Marines in the Tactical Trait. Everyone else re-rolls 1s.
Oh , thanks, so the entire army gets Preferred Enemy (Everything) for free, whereas Tac get twin-linked instead. That clears things up a bit
Imo, they should also get Toughness 5, they are Space Marines, after all...and maybe 2 Wounds each, because they got a shiny armor.
They only re-roll ones for shooting. Preferred Enemy works in the Assualt Phase too.
And I can't manage to read that last part, it's too garbled with whinge to make out properly. I think it says "Marines are fairly balanced and I'm just jealous."
Sigvatr wrote: Hooooooooold on for a second - is it true that a new Tac Marine will now cost 1 point more than a Necron Warrior despite having ATSKNF, 3+, better weapons, Combat Tactics, Sergeants, Doctrines etc.?
oh my gosh! the thought of a unit costing more because it has better options?
Didn't know ATSKNF, Combat Tactics, 3+ and Sergeants are options.
GW really sticks to the plan to make new stuff or re-releases badly balanced on purpose, eh.
Wait... a necron player who thinks his Warriors are worse than Tacticals What?! How? Every weapon you have can glance any vehicle, you have arguably the best transport in the game (Wave Serpent might get you), and you stand back up! Also, your unit isn't way worse if its understrength and you can run an IC in your transport without nerfing your entire squad... which can have 5 more models than a tactical squad and still be in your death-proof flying drop pod with awesome weapons. Go away silly person! Your glass isn't half empty, its three quarters full. Good lord, the BA/Necron/SW tears are making hypocrites and whiners out of so many players who still have it better than SM players for basically all of 5th editon, and if they wipe their eyes, they're still only a model or two per 1k points off the SM pace IF the rumors are all correct.
Let's not forget also that Necrons are Ld10 to the paltry Ld8 of Tacticals.
Wait... a necron player who thinks his Warriors are worse than Tacticals What?! How? Every weapon you have can glance any vehicle, you have arguably the best transport in the game (Wave Serpent might get you), and you stand back up! Also, your unit isn't way worse if its understrength and you can run an IC in your transport without nerfing your entire squad... which can have 5 more models than a tactical squad and still be in your death-proof flying drop pod with awesome weapons. Go away silly person! Your glass isn't half empty, its three quarters full. Good lord, the BA/Necron/SW tears are making hypocrites and whiners out of so many players who still have it better than SM players for basically all of 5th editon, and if they wipe their eyes, they're still only a model or two per 1k points off the SM pace IF the rumors are all correct.
I'm comparing individual units here. If you want to argue that Necron Warriors should be more expensive than TAC because of Nightscythes, you'd automatically say that every player should always play the most OP lists out there to get a balanced army.
xxvaderxx wrote: With out interceptor it can not do its job period, av12 gets glanced to death far too easy.
So what? You just take two or three Because you can do that, since these things are only 70 or 75 points each.
People asking for Interceptor don't realise that it would also double the cost (or even more).
The problem with that is then you have no more HS slots left. If you can take a squadron? Sure. 3 of those AA tanks for 210-225 points and a single HS choice? Sign me up. Worst case scenario they're mobile terrain that might kill a few models or a tank. If I have to give up all of the rest of my heavy support though... eeeeh.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: So, since there's conflicting information, does Accept Any Challenge give (rerolls to hit in combat) and (rending in challenges) or (rerolls to hit and rending in challenges)? I would so love to have the rerolls back. Frankly, without it Crusader Squads would STILL be worse than Grey Hunters, especially since Righteous Zeal and Rage no longer seems to be around (which isn't all bad, mind you).
Accept All Challenges gives models in a challenge re-rolls to hit AND rending. Everyone gets Crusade and Adamantium will though.
And Crusade Squads can hide a power weapon on a normal Initiate in the squad.
Slower into combat and less attacks on the charge hurts a lot, even with everything we gained. The loss of Fearless in CC is another unpleasant hit. The new rules don't really add much to the CC prowess of the Templars, and I'm not too keen on trading what little CC extras there were in the old Codex for some situational rules. I guess the CC nerf is in line with what happened to Khorne Berzerkers, though.
Sigvatr wrote: Hooooooooold on for a second - is it true that a new Tac Marine will now cost 1 point more than a Necron Warrior despite having ATSKNF, 3+, better weapons, Combat Tactics, Sergeants, Doctrines etc.?
Against AP5 shooting, Reanimation Protocol with a 4+ is almost the same as Sv 3+. Against AP4, you would want 3+ and against AP3, Reanimation Protocol is the clear winner!
Calculations (assume that each group has 100 wounds)
AP5: Necrons: 33 dead, Marines: 33 dead, Res-Orb: 25 dead
AP4: Necrons: 67 dead, Marines: 33 dead, Res-Orb: 50 dead
AP3: Necrons: 67 dead, Marines: 100 dead, Res Orb: 50 dead
They also have +2LD, better transport, can glance vehicles and they DO have Sergeants (we call those Lords and Crypteks).
Sigvatr wrote: Hooooooooold on for a second - is it true that a new Tac Marine will now cost 1 point more than a Necron Warrior despite having ATSKNF, 3+, better weapons, Combat Tactics, Sergeants, Doctrines etc.?
Yet they still get Re-animation protocols and glance vehicles on a 6, with a good transport.
It's still better then CSM's -1 point for nothing.
Wait... a necron player who thinks his Warriors are worse than Tacticals What?! How? Every weapon you have can glance any vehicle, you have arguably the best transport in the game (Wave Serpent might get you), and you stand back up! Also, your unit isn't way worse if its understrength and you can run an IC in your transport without nerfing your entire squad... which can have 5 more models than a tactical squad and still be in your death-proof flying drop pod with awesome weapons. Go away silly person! Your glass isn't half empty, its three quarters full. Good lord, the BA/Necron/SW tears are making hypocrites and whiners out of so many players who still have it better than SM players for basically all of 5th editon, and if they wipe their eyes, they're still only a model or two per 1k points off the SM pace IF the rumors are all correct.
I'm comparing individual units here. If you want to argue that Necron Warriors should be more expensive than TAC because of Nightscythes, you'd automatically say that every player should always play the most OP lists out there to get a balanced army.
No, I'm just not looking at things in a vacuum. You have strongly implied/said that tacticals are better than they should be compared to warriors... you even listed optional weapons (additions to the unit)... but ignored the mountain of advantages and awesome options your warriors have. If you're choosing to not take options that make your units better, well I'm not sure why you're pointing the finger at GW then. Last I checked, units have to be taken with the rest of their codex. You have some of the best codex synergy in the game with your warriors... if you ignore all the ups of a unit, yeah it sucks then.
In short, looks like they split up the various chapters (despite the Codex Fluff of telion being "loaned out" to other Chapters for training) with the C:SM giving you all of the Ultra Characters, but also enough SCs from other chapters to continue to field you current armies as intended.
I suspect the upcoming Supplements will provide other Chapter Specific special characters and wargear that can then put the finishing touches to your Armies flavor ( a SC Terminator SGT that T/Ls his squads Hammers, A white Scar Relic that allows you to take 2 extra bike squads as Troops/Scoring; the ability to pay for "Vulkan Forged Armor" ...see Salamander Dreadnought HQ... on Sally tanks that act like ceramite armour, etc...).
I like the idea of allying various Chapters.
So if you "must" have Telion and a Psyker in your Salamander Army , you take a UM Ally with Tigerius and a scout Squad as your Troop, and get telion and a really Buffed Psyker (Question: If your using "aliied C:SM chapters", are they still restricted to using their own Chapter transport? ie: IF Termies with Lysander jumping out of Vulkans T/L Melta equipped LR Redeemer.)
The other benefit of allying Chapters (or taking an IG ally)...each ally detachment can take 1 Fort. So for 100pts per ally you can take a ADL with Quad-gun...with Twin-Link, Skyfire AND Interceptor. Perhaps 30-35 points more than a Stalker/Hunter...but you get T7 with a 4+/2+ (GTG) save.
If your always facing Turkey-Spam...that may be the better way of dealing with that...and the quad-gun is still an excellent Transport buster.
(EDIT) The downside being for those of use who love DIY Chapters, we will have to look at repainting and decaling entire chunks of our armies to prevent shennanigan calls of identical painted units suddenly switching traits.
I may play a Salamnder Army, but i'll be d@mned if I paint them green (a color I hate)!
WBB is 5+ without Regeneration Orb (30 pts), our "Sergeants" cost another 35+ pts, LD doesn't matter since SM cannot be overrun. I'll glady get LD 8 in return for gaining ATSKNF. And again, having a "better transport" doesn't make the unit better in comparison.
The main advantage Necron Warriors have are the auto-glance on vehicles but in return, SM get access to plasma-weapons and, in general, are more flexible. With Twin-linked, they also become a lot more efficient at shooting despite having the same BS.
I appreciate the caluclations - mind the points cost though. Assume a unit of 10 on both sides. In order to get the Res orb, you have to, at the very least, pay an additional 65 pts. Same cost as another unit of 5 TAC.
No Orb involved, we're looking at:
10 TAC vs. 10 Necron Warriors (shooting)
TAC: 10 S4 shots, hit at 3s, re-roll every missed shot. ~7 automatic hits, 2 more hits with the re-rolls, 9 hits total. Wound at 4s, 4.5 wounds caused. 4+ saves, ~2 Warriors dead.
Necron Warriors: 10 S4 shots, hit at 3s, 7 hits, 3.5 wounds, 3+ saves, => ~1 SM dead.
Even with the unlikely chance of WBB triggering (unlikely as in .p3 chance), it would be a draw at best.
Not including any (dis)advantages weaponry might bring. Gauss is better vs vehicles at close range whereas a Lascannon is better vs. vehicles at long range, if it is equipped. Hard to compare weaponry as it's situational. Having access to a twin-linked lascannon at that cost, however, not to mention a twin-linked plasma cannon, but that will await judgement.
Not going to compare melee, Necrons get ouright destroyed in melee.
I am waiting with a verdict for the codex as soon as it gets released, but if those rumors stand true, it's either that GW purposefully undercosts a unit (again, not even surprised here) or Necron Warriors are overcosted...and I do not believe the latter.
I don't get why people are so bothered by the new AA not having interceptor. This is not new information, this vehicle already exists. It’s called a Hydra. It is also 75 points, 12/12/10, has 2 twin-linked S:7 Ap:4 guns, and DOES NOT HAVE INTERCEPTOR. Yet it is a fantastic vehicle that performs well and certainly has a place in any IG. This is basically the same vehicle that SM is getting except that the SM version gets to be BS:4.
c0j1r0 wrote: Spess Mahrins shudn't be affected by poison cuz their body resists poison.
But they are resistant to poison!
Poisonous Dangerous Terrain only wounds them 1 out of 18 times.
A weapon that has a 50% chance to wound a gigantic monstrous creature has the same chance of wounding a Marine.
Yes granted, only tac gets twinlinked, the rest rerolls ones (including vehicles, dakka pred with lass sponsoons will be all the rage) only rerolls ones, thing is we miss on only miss on 1 or 2, so granted its not twin linked but it is still 80% accuracy, so might as well call it psudo-linked.
Sigvatr wrote: WBB is 5+ without Regeneration Orb (30 pts), our "Sergeants" cost another 35+ pts, LD doesn't matter since SM cannot be overrun. I'll glady get LD 8 in return for gaining ATSKNF. And again, having a "better transport" doesn't make the unit better in comparison.
The main advantage Necron Warriors have are the auto-glance on vehicles but in return, SM get access to plasma-weapons and, in general, are more flexible. With Twin-linked, they also become a lot more efficient at shooting despite having the same BS.
I appreciate the caluclations - mind the points cost though. Assume a unit of 10 on both sides. In order to get the Res orb, you have to, at the very least, pay an additional 65 pts. Same cost as another unit of 5 TAC.
No Orb involved, we're looking at:
10 TAC vs. 10 Necron Warriors (shooting)
TAC: 10 S4 shots, hit at 3s, re-roll every missed shot. ~7 automatic hits, 2 more hits with the re-rolls, 9 hits total. Wound at 4s, 4.5 wounds caused. 4+ saves, ~2 Warriors dead.
Necron Warriors: 10 S4 shots, hit at 3s, 7 hits, 3.5 wounds, 3+ saves, => ~1 SM dead.
Even with the unlikely chance of WBB triggering (unlikely as in .p3 chance), it would be a draw at best.
Not including any (dis)advantages weaponry might bring. Gauss is better vs vehicles at close range whereas a Lascannon is better vs. vehicles at long range, if it is equipped. Hard to compare weaponry as it's situational. Having access to a twin-linked lascannon at that cost, however, not to mention a twin-linked plasma cannon, but that will await judgement.
Not going to compare melee, Necrons get ouright destroyed in melee.
I am waiting with a verdict for the codex as soon as it gets released, but if those rumors stand true, it's either that GW purposefully undercosts a unit (again, not even surprised here) or Necron Warriors are overcosted...and I do not believe the latter.
The marines have frag grenades to preserve their inititive
The marines have krak grenades to wreck vehicles and dreads in CC The marines have pistols, so they can shoot and assault
The marines are immune to the new "fear" rule
from the xenos players.
