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Post by: Dracos
Delicious QQ over Tactical squads here... For too long they have been an easy pass and easily identified weak-point.
The tears are/will be delicious.
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Post by: Exergy
xxvaderxx wrote:Yes granted, only tac gets twinlinked, the rest rerolls ones (including vehicles, dakka pred with lass sponsoons will be all the rage) only rerolls ones, thing is we miss on only miss on 1 or 2, so granted its not twin linked but it is still 80% accuracy, so might as well call it psudo-linked.
The reroll 1s is awesome. Of course a ton of SM vehicles have TL weaponry, and reroll 1s on Land Raider is pretty useless.....
66089
Post by: Kangodo
 Sigvatr wrote:WBB is 5+ without Regeneration Orb (30 pts), our "Sergeants" cost another 35+ pts, LD doesn't matter since SM cannot be overrun. I'll glady get LD 8 in return for gaining ATSKNF. And again, having a "better transport" doesn't make the unit better in comparison. The main advantage Necron Warriors have are the auto-glance on vehicles but in return, SM get access to plasma-weapons and, in general, are more flexible. With Twin-linked, they also become a lot more efficient at shooting despite having the same BS. I appreciate the caluclations - mind the points cost though. Assume a unit of 10 on both sides. In order to get the Res orb, you have to, at the very least, pay an additional 65 pts. Same cost as another unit of 5 TAC. No Orb involved, we're looking at: 10 TAC vs. 10 Necron Warriors (shooting) TAC: 10 S4 shots, hit at 3s, re-roll every missed shot. ~7 automatic hits, 2 more hits with the re-rolls, 9 hits total. Wound at 4s, 4.5 wounds caused. 4+ saves, ~2 Warriors dead. Necron Warriors: 10 S4 shots, hit at 3s, 7 hits, 3.5 wounds, 3+ saves, => ~1 SM dead. Even with the unlikely chance of WBB triggering (unlikely as in .p3 chance), it would be a draw at best. Not including any (dis)advantages weaponry might bring. Gauss is better vs vehicles at close range whereas a Lascannon is better vs. vehicles at long range, if it is equipped. Hard to compare weaponry as it's situational. Having access to a twin-linked lascannon at that cost, however, not to mention a twin-linked plasma cannon, but that will await judgement. Not going to compare melee, Necrons get ouright destroyed in melee. I am waiting with a verdict for the codex as soon as it gets released, but if those rumors stand true, it's either that GW purposefully undercosts a unit (again, not even surprised here) or Necron Warriors are overcosted...and I do not believe the latter.
1. Having a better transport does make a difference, I will address this in the conclusion. 2. My BA-Sergeant is 36 points and I would rate a Necron Lord much much much higher. 3. Necron Warriors aren't supposed to be flexible, they are just good at everything. Sure, you might not have plasma against vehicles and I am too tired to do the math, but 15 warriors are going to glance a vehicle much easier. 4. You shouldn't compare Warriors to Marines like that, I facepalm whenever I see someone compare Wraiths to TWC and I will do the same to you. 5. Nice calculation, but double the numbers: 4 warriors dead and 2 marines. With a res-orb you will only have two dead Warriors, which makes it equal. The conclusion: I hardly take Tactical Marines but field over 30 Warriors every game. Why? Warriors are better. Tactical Marines need this cost-reduce so people will start to field them.
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Post by: xxvaderxx
 Exergy wrote:xxvaderxx wrote:Yes granted, only tac gets twinlinked, the rest rerolls ones (including vehicles, dakka pred with lass sponsoons will be all the rage) only rerolls ones, thing is we miss on only miss on 1 or 2, so granted its not twin linked but it is still 80% accuracy, so might as well call it psudo-linked.
The reroll 1s is awesome. Of course a ton of SM vehicles have TL weaponry, and reroll 1s on Land Raider is pretty useless.....
It is, but preds will get 2 auto cannons and 2 lass cannon shots, pseudo link for about 100 points if i remember correctly, or a lot of daka pseudo-linked for under 90 points, on AV13, that is interesting to me. Same goes for devastors, even if they get one less ML at the same cost of long fangs, they get about the same fire effect taking accuracy into consideration.
47327
Post by: whigwam
 SoloFalcon1138 wrote: whigwam wrote:Why are people acting like a lack of Interceptor necessarily precludes shooting at ground targets at full BS? Look at the Soulgrinder: the Harvester is one gun with two profiles, one is Skyfire, the other is not. I'm guessing the new tanks may have something similar, allowing them to freely alternate between Skyfiring and ground-firing.
Then again, at a rumored 70-75 points a pop...maybe not.
Unless you're talking about a storm bolter or a hunter-killer missile, then no. The weapon has skyfire, but not interceptor. If a weapon or unit has one but not the other, it uses snap-fire rules.
My point is: who's to say the weapon doesn't have a non-Skyfire shooting profile as well? I remember people having the same complaint when rumors that 'Soulgrinders will have Skyfire' was leaked. "Eww my soulgrinders won't be able to shoot at the ground?!?" It turned out Soulgrinders did indeed have Skyfire...but they also have a shooting profile without Skyfire. No Interceptor...no need to snapfire at ground targets. That may be the case here as well.
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Post by: Imperial Deceit
Warriors are Ld. 10.
Warriors can glance to death vehicles they shouldn't even be able to hurt.
Warriors get back up against weapons that wouldn't even leave a puddle of molten metal, let alone coherent pieces.
Warriors are I2 so frag grenades would be nearly meaningless anyway. (Unless for some reason you decide to assault Orks through cover?)
Warriors basically have rending guns.
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Post by: ultimentra
Actually most IG player do not consider the Hydra to be a good choice unless you know 100% that the enemy will spam tons of flyers or *weak* skimmers. Most IG players consider the Vendetta and HellHound to be much better all-rounder choices for an IG army.
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Post by: Imperial Deceit
It may surprise you that not every IG player wants to spam vendettas, and the hellhound isn't even in the same force org. slot and provides a totally different roll then the Hydra.
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Post by: ductvader
Exergy wrote:
The marines have frag grenades to preserve their inititive
The marines have krak grenades to wreck vehicles and dreads in CC
The marines have pistols, so they can shoot and assault
The marines are immune to the new "fear" rule
The Marines are generic.
The Marines are generic.
The Marines are generic.
The Marines are generic.
That's saying a lot about models that are really good at being good...but suck at being great.
Marines don't have units that have a very narrow focus in what they do.
While this has its own benefits...it means that its not comparable with many xenos and chaos models of similar points.
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Post by: dkellyj
 ultimentra wrote:Actually most IG player do not consider the Hydra to be a good choice unless you know 100% that the enemy will spam tons of flyers or *weak* skimmers. Most IG players consider the Vendetta and HellHound to be much better all-rounder choices for an IG army.
QFT!
Vendettas to kill his flyers then hunt characters and creatures (and get to be scoring in 1/3 of the games)
Hellhounds to torch non MEQ mobs (and even then they do pretty well against MEQ). And are also scoring in 1/3 of the games...but most people forget that since its a "tank" and not a "skimmer/flyer."
Wonder if they will take a page from C: SM with the next C: IG...Cadians and Catachans as seperate IG types that can ally together (Cadian Vets get +1 BS, Catachan Vets get +1 WS).
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Post by: davou
Any word about whether telion will get the same allocation gimmick that the assassin gets?
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Post by: Imperial Deceit
Unlikely, as Telion already has special tricks. The assassin pays a premium for that trick. However as a character Telion does get to allocate any rolls of a 6 per the precision shot rules. The enemy still gets to chance a Look out Sir! though.
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Post by: Godless-Mimicry
 davou wrote:Any word about whether telion will get the same allocation gimmick that the assassin gets?
IIRC the rumours said he had the Sniper rule from the rulebook now. Not sure what that does specifically though.
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Post by: davou
so he stays the same cost and looses his precision shots? I was asking if they cannot be LOS'ed away, and he lost his special outright?
Thats awesome 
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Post by: ductvader
He shouldn't be as good a sniper as the Vindicare...sniping is all that guy does...Telion on the other hand can help other marines thread the needle with a missile launcher.
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Post by: Kangodo
 Godless-Mimicry wrote:IIRC the rumours said he had the Sniper rule from the rulebook now. Not sure what that does specifically though.
The rumour says he has been updated with the sniper rule, which probably means the weapon profile.
That changes nothing about his own personal rule that lets you allocate all hits he makes.
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Post by: xxvaderxx
ultimentra wrote:Actually most IG player do not consider the Hydra to be a good choice unless you know 100% that the enemy will spam tons of flyers or *weak* skimmers. Most IG players consider the Vendetta and HellHound to be much better all-rounder choices for an IG army.
And as long as allied IG can take them in squadrons so do Marines =P.
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Post by: Pyriel-
Kangodo wrote: Sigvatr wrote:WBB is 5+ without Regeneration Orb (30 pts), our "Sergeants" cost another 35+ pts, LD doesn't matter since SM cannot be overrun. I'll glady get LD 8 in return for gaining ATSKNF. And again, having a "better transport" doesn't make the unit better in comparison.
The main advantage Necron Warriors have are the auto-glance on vehicles but in return, SM get access to plasma-weapons and, in general, are more flexible. With Twin-linked, they also become a lot more efficient at shooting despite having the same BS.
I appreciate the caluclations - mind the points cost though. Assume a unit of 10 on both sides. In order to get the Res orb, you have to, at the very least, pay an additional 65 pts. Same cost as another unit of 5 TAC.
No Orb involved, we're looking at:
10 TAC vs. 10 Necron Warriors (shooting)
TAC: 10 S4 shots, hit at 3s, re-roll every missed shot. ~7 automatic hits, 2 more hits with the re-rolls, 9 hits total. Wound at 4s, 4.5 wounds caused. 4+ saves, ~2 Warriors dead.
Necron Warriors: 10 S4 shots, hit at 3s, 7 hits, 3.5 wounds, 3+ saves, => ~1 SM dead.
Even with the unlikely chance of WBB triggering (unlikely as in .p3 chance), it would be a draw at best.
Not including any (dis)advantages weaponry might bring. Gauss is better vs vehicles at close range whereas a Lascannon is better vs. vehicles at long range, if it is equipped. Hard to compare weaponry as it's situational. Having access to a twin-linked lascannon at that cost, however, not to mention a twin-linked plasma cannon, but that will await judgement.
Not going to compare melee, Necrons get ouright destroyed in melee.
I am waiting with a verdict for the codex as soon as it gets released, but if those rumors stand true, it's either that GW purposefully undercosts a unit (again, not even surprised here) or Necron Warriors are overcosted...and I do not believe the latter.
1. Having a better transport does make a difference, I will address this in the conclusion.
2. My BA-Sergeant is 36 points and I would rate a Necron Lord much much much higher.
3. Necron Warriors aren't supposed to be flexible, they are just good at everything.
Sure, you might not have plasma against vehicles and I am too tired to do the math, but 15 warriors are going to glance a vehicle much easier.
4. You shouldn't compare Warriors to Marines like that, I facepalm whenever I see someone compare Wraiths to TWC and I will do the same to you.
5. Nice calculation, but double the numbers: 4 warriors dead and 2 marines. With a res-orb you will only have two dead Warriors, which makes it equal.
The conclusion:
I hardly take Tactical Marines but field over 30 Warriors every game. Why? Warriors are better.
Tactical Marines need this cost-reduce so people will start to field them.
It gets even better when he conveniently "forgets" to mention other comparisons like a SM captain vs a necron lord point-wargear-statline wise or the flying croissant circus of death or the best transports in the game etc etc.
Sure, just take tacs out of the dough and whine, that´ll show´em.
It´s sad enough that tacs suck so much that most people only take two simply because they are forced to by the FoC.
I wouldnt mind removing ATSKNF from tacs if SM got other troop options such as hordes of zombies etc but I guess every army is somehow internally balanced.
What points we now save in cheaper tacs will be eaten up by more expensive hammernators or what have you.
As for the new AAA tanks, they are utter rubbish. Why take an AAA tank if you can take a flyer instead? The flyer can kill things no matter if they are enemy flyers or ground targets whereas the tank will be useless as soon as the opponent doesnt bring flyers into the game.
There is no way in hell any of these AAA boxes are going to be seen in tournament games. They are just an reactive opportunity unit that depends on the guesswork of the opponent bringing own flyers or not.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
xxvaderxx wrote: ultimentra wrote:Actually most IG player do not consider the Hydra to be a good choice unless you know 100% that the enemy will spam tons of flyers or *weak* skimmers. Most IG players consider the Vendetta and HellHound to be much better all-rounder choices for an IG army.
And as long as allied IG can take them in squadrons so do Marines =P.
The Vendetta was the worst thing to happen to the IG codex in the entire history of the army. An idiotically low-costed, hyper-efficient tank destroyer they didn't even make a model for, spammable in squadrons and utterly obsoleting dedicated gunships written into the game already? Thanks a lot, Cruddace. I'd rather crush my own fingers with a jackhammer than run Vendettas.
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Post by: Exergy
Imperial Deceit wrote:
Warriors are I2 so frag grenades would be nearly meaningless anyway. (Unless for some reason you decide to assault Orks through cover?)
Warriors basically have rending guns.
you can throw grenades
basically rending? as in they are every AP2? Rending weapons ignore armor saves about 33% of the time. (wound on 4+, 1/3 of the wounds ignore saves)
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Post by: Brother Weasel
 Pyriel- wrote:
As for the new AAA tanks, they are utter rubbish. Why take an AAA tank if you can take a flyer instead? The flyer can kill things no matter if they are enemy flyers or ground targets whereas the tank will be useless as soon as the opponent doesnt bring flyers into the game.
There is no way in hell any of these AAA boxes are going to be seen in tournament games. They are just an reactive opportunity unit that depends on the guesswork of the opponent bringing own flyers or not.
because they cost half as much as the flier in the HS? Not everyone maxes out thier HS and plopping one or 2 anti flier tanks in seams like a reasonable thing to put out there...
of course, not everything needs to be uber competitive for tournies for it to be a good option in the codex... It's an OPTION that has a role... simple as that...
and comparing warriors to marines is just silly, they are diffrent.. same with adding the transports.. sure the rhino isn't as good, but then it's 35 points, so it shoulnd't be as good.. crons can kill tanks with gauss, marines can make crons run away in shooting, or over run them in CC, it's all a trade off...
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Post by: Exergy
 ductvader wrote: Exergy wrote:
The marines have frag grenades to preserve their inititive
The marines have krak grenades to wreck vehicles and dreads in CC
The marines have pistols, so they can shoot and assault
The marines are immune to the new "fear" rule
The Marines are generic.
The Marines are generic.
The Marines are generic.
The Marines are generic.
That's saying a lot about models that are really good at being good...but suck at being great.
Marines don't have units that have a very narrow focus in what they do.
While this has its own benefits...it means that its not comparable with many xenos and chaos models of similar points.
why does being generic allow you to ignore basic mechanics of the game?
auto rally and no side effects?
impossible to sweep?
immune to fear?
shooting unit that can shoot, charge, and still strike first through cover?
wouldnt generic things be subject to most rules in the game?
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Post by: ultimentra
 Agamemnon2 wrote:xxvaderxx wrote: ultimentra wrote:Actually most IG player do not consider the Hydra to be a good choice unless you know 100% that the enemy will spam tons of flyers or *weak* skimmers. Most IG players consider the Vendetta and HellHound to be much better all-rounder choices for an IG army.
And as long as allied IG can take them in squadrons so do Marines =P.
The Vendetta was the worst thing to happen to the IG codex in the entire history of the army. An idiotically low-costed, hyper-efficient tank destroyer they didn't even make a model for, spammable in squadrons and utterly obsoleting dedicated gunships written into the game already? Thanks a lot, Cruddace. I'd rather crush my own fingers with a jackhammer than run Vendettas.
Cool story bro, I have no problem with taking them. Everyone else gets cheese, everyone else takes cheese, so why not take yours? I know I'm not going to convince you to take a vendettas, since your mind is made up already, but its not like anyone could talk me out of taking them either. People should also not have delusions about them in terms of pure firepower.
Just throwing this out there, taking some IG allies with this new marine codex, you wont need the new AA tanks. You can just take some Vendettas and your AA is set. The new AA tanks are IMO, even more gak than the hydras anyhow, because against an AV12 flyer (like the vendetta for instance) your still glancing on a 5 with strength 7. Those are not good odds. Even with armorbane, the big gun is still only one shot.
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Post by: VoidAngel
Imperial Deceit wrote:I always thought it was a bit weird that Khan had to buy his ride as a seperate upgrade.
Las, plas, or gas - nobody rides for free, Khan.
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Post by: pretre
Agamemnon2 wrote:The Vendetta was the worst thing to happen to the IG codex in the entire history of the army. An idiotically low-costed, hyper-efficient tank destroyer they didn't even make a model for, spammable in squadrons and utterly obsoleting dedicated gunships written into the game already? Thanks a lot, Cruddace. I'd rather crush my own fingers with a jackhammer than run Vendettas.
Best satire of a imperial guard codex critique on Dakka in a long time.
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Post by: c0j1r0
Brother Weasel wrote:of course, not everything needs to be uber competitive for tournies for it to be a good option in the codex... It's an OPTION that has a role... simple as that...
This.
I'm glad someone shares my opinion.
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Post by: Saythings
Any word on how cheap the BT dedicated transport-LRC is?
Rumors had it they would be slightly cheaper for BT-DT :'D
I could finally run 3 LRC in my 2k again!
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Post by: Kangodo
Pyriel- wrote:It gets even better when he conveniently "forgets" to mention other comparisons like a SM captain vs a necron lord point-wargear-statline wise or the flying croissant circus of death or the best transports in the game etc etc.
Sure, just take tacs out of the dough and whine, that´ll show´em.
It´s sad enough that tacs suck so much that most people only take two simply because they are forced to by the FoC.
I wouldnt mind removing ATSKNF from tacs if SM got other troop options such as hordes of zombies etc but I guess every army is somehow internally balanced.
What points we now save in cheaper tacs will be eaten up by more expensive hammernators or what have you.
Yeah, his complaining has no basis at all.
If there was any truth in all of that, than Dark Angels should already be beating Necrons all the time.
I'm just glad to play Blood Angels in that aspect: I have dreads, DC, Sanguinaries, Scouts and Assault Marines I can take over those silly Tacticals.
The only reason I ever field them is because: A) I only have 10 ASM at the moment and B) We're playing a really big game and even my dreads, DC and Sanguinary Guard aren't enough troops.
As for the new AAA tanks, they are utter rubbish. Why take an AAA tank if you can take a flyer instead? The flyer can kill things no matter if they are enemy flyers or ground targets whereas the tank will be useless as soon as the opponent doesnt bring flyers into the game.
There is no way in hell any of these AAA boxes are going to be seen in tournament games. They are just an reactive opportunity unit that depends on the guesswork of the opponent bringing own flyers or not.
Because they are cheaper?
Because you like the models?
The only thing I don't like is its limited use. Do they expect you to ask your friends: "Are you playing flyers today? Aah nice, then I will take my AA-tank."?
They are a useless if the opponent doesn't have flyers and you end up feeling bad because you spend points on them.
On the other hand: What are 70 points in a friendly match of 1500?
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Post by: Agamemnon2
 pretre wrote:Best satire of a imperial guard codex critique on Dakka in a long time.
Never let it be said that I grow weary or slapdash in my old age. I suppose it's a testimony to the unencouraging nature of these rumors that I want to talk about anything other than what's coming out next.
Still, with my Kickstarter miniatures a month away still, one does need something to occupy time with.
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Post by: VoidAngel
Kangodo wrote: c0j1r0 wrote:Spess Mahrins shudn't be affected by poison cuz their body resists poison.
But they are resistant to poison!
Poisonous Dangerous Terrain only wounds them 1 out of 18 times.
A weapon that has a 50% chance to wound a gigantic monstrous creature has the same chance of wounding a Marine.
"The poison is in the dose."
You, in fact, are resistant to arsenic. You are just not very resistant to 50cc's of arsenic at once....
A Marine may well shrug off a single poisoned scrap of shard. He will not do so well when hit with a splinter cannon and ends up looking like rag doll flung through a window factory...
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Post by: Brother Weasel
Kangodo wrote:
The only thing I don't like is its limited use. Do they expect you to ask your friends: "Are you playing flyers today? Aah nice, then I will take my AA-tank."?
They are a useless if the opponent doesn't have flyers and you end up feeling bad because you spend points on them.
On the other hand: What are 70 points in a friendly match of 1500?
tank shock, ramming, rolling cover... ok, not great, but at least they can do something  Maybe it'll have a storm bolter pintle.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
Even in Epic, the Hunter could be used as a stopgap anti-tank gun, with its AT4+/AA4+ profile. Kind of lame that it's useless in 40k proper.
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Post by: VoidAngel
I have seen little about the Legion of the Damned, other than that they are in the book, and their weapons ignore cover.
Anyone know if they are still elites? Do they still DS only, or can they maybe roll onto the battlefield in spooky Land Raiders now? Ghoulish Drop Pods, maybe?
Is their weapon loadout the same? Better? Worse? Still 3++? Squad size the same?
Bueller? Anyone?
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Post by: Mr Morden
Well the Hydra has the same problem no? and that always been descibred as a horrifyingly powerful wepaon against enemy infantry and light vehicles.............
Yeah like to more about the Legion as well
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Post by: Exergy
ultimentra wrote:
The new AA tanks are IMO, even more gak than the hydras anyhow, because against an AV12 flyer (like the vendetta for instance) your still glancing on a 5 with strength 7. Those are not good odds. Even with armorbane, the big gun is still only one shot.
Hydras are AV10 on the side, these are AV12 on the side. Makes a big difference against a heldrake
Hydras have 4 BS3 twinlinked shots. This tank has 4 BS4 shots that probably reroll 1s to hit and can split fire. Or it is IF and has armorbane, or it is RG and has stealth, or it is IH and has IWND.
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Post by: ultimentra
Exergy wrote: ultimentra wrote:
The new AA tanks are IMO, even more gak than the hydras anyhow, because against an AV12 flyer (like the vendetta for instance) your still glancing on a 5 with strength 7. Those are not good odds. Even with armorbane, the big gun is still only one shot.
Hydras are AV10 on the side, these are AV12 on the side. Makes a big difference against a heldrake
Hydras have 4 BS3 twinlinked shots. This tank has 4 BS4 shots that probably reroll 1s to hit and can split fire. Or it is IF and has armorbane, or it is RG and has stealth, or it is IH and has IWND.
True enough, its survivability and accuracy are much better compared to the Hydra, its the firepower which I worry about when it comes to firing at AV12.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
 VoidAngel wrote:I have seen little about the Legion of the Damned, other than that they are in the book, and their weapons ignore cover.
Anyone know if they are still elites? Do they still DS only, or can they maybe roll onto the battlefield in spooky Land Raiders now? Ghoulish Drop Pods, maybe?
Is their weapon loadout the same? Better? Worse? Still 3++? Squad size the same?
Bueller? Anyone?
Reportedly the only changes are all their weapons Ignore Cover and they're 25 points each. That's all I've seen thus far.
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Post by: Sigvatr
Kangodo wrote:
1. Having a better transport does make a difference, I will address this in the conclusion.
You can take 3 Rhinos at the cost of 1 Nightscythe. I'll just leave this here. Oh, you can also take a Ghost Bark for 115 pts. Now that's a steal!
3. Necron Warriors aren't supposed to be flexible, they are just good at everything.
I'm not even bothering going further in your post. You seem to be new to the game or do not have much experience with / against Necrons. Saying that Necron Warriors are good at everything is just a wrong statement - and I'll leave it at that without further regard.
ductvader wrote:
The Marines are generic.
The Marines are generic.
The Marines are generic.
The Marines are generic.
As already pointed out, this is no argument for / against it - being generic is no excuse for poor costing. And if TAC are generic, what are Necron Warriors then? They cannot even choose an option. That's the epitome of generic.
Pyriel- wrote:
It gets even better when he conveniently "forgets" to mention other comparisons like a SM captain vs a necron lord point-wargear-statline wise or the flying croissant circus of death or the best transports in the game etc etc.
Sure, just take tacs out of the dough and whine, that´ll show´em.
Last time I checked, there was a difference between a SM captain and a SM sergeant. Might want to double-check that in your codex. Best transport in the game is the Vendetta due to it being ridiculously undercosted, Nightscythe is a close second due to its high mobility.
You're not the only one raising the "Q_Q tac have been so bad in the past, it's just fair they're undercosted now!" argument, but it's a truly terrible one. By that logic, SoB will be massively overpowered and able to table every opponent by turn 1. I'd like to see that.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
The Vendetta isn't a dedicated transport and is worse as a transport than the Nightscythe.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Would it be reasonable, at some point I mean, to go back to discussing rumors instead of trying to compare codexes to each other?
I mean, I get that these are apparently very interesting discussions, but what the IG, BA, DA, CSM and Necrons have in their codexes has very little, if any, bearing on what the C:SM are getting, now do they?
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Post by: SoloFalcon1138
Agamemnon2 wrote:xxvaderxx wrote: ultimentra wrote:Actually most IG player do not consider the Hydra to be a good choice unless you know 100% that the enemy will spam tons of flyers or *weak* skimmers. Most IG players consider the Vendetta and HellHound to be much better all-rounder choices for an IG army.
And as long as allied IG can take them in squadrons so do Marines =P.
The Vendetta was the worst thing to happen to the IG codex in the entire history of the army. An idiotically low-costed, hyper-efficient tank destroyer they didn't even make a model for, spammable in squadrons and utterly obsoleting dedicated gunships written into the game already? Thanks a lot, Cruddace. I'd rather crush my own fingers with a jackhammer than run Vendettas.
And when the bokk was written they knew that there were going to be rules for flyers, right? Did anyone run a lot of vendettas when they were just skimmers?
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: Agamemnon2 wrote:xxvaderxx wrote: ultimentra wrote:Actually most IG player do not consider the Hydra to be a good choice unless you know 100% that the enemy will spam tons of flyers or *weak* skimmers. Most IG players consider the Vendetta and HellHound to be much better all-rounder choices for an IG army.
And as long as allied IG can take them in squadrons so do Marines =P.
The Vendetta was the worst thing to happen to the IG codex in the entire history of the army. An idiotically low-costed, hyper-efficient tank destroyer they didn't even make a model for, spammable in squadrons and utterly obsoleting dedicated gunships written into the game already? Thanks a lot, Cruddace. I'd rather crush my own fingers with a jackhammer than run Vendettas.
And when the bokk was written they knew that there were going to be rules for flyers, right? Did anyone run a lot of vendettas when they were just skimmers?
...yes? It was one of the best units in the Codex BEFORE it got turned into a flyer.
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Post by: Exergy
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: Agamemnon2 wrote:xxvaderxx wrote: ultimentra wrote:Actually most IG player do not consider the Hydra to be a good choice unless you know 100% that the enemy will spam tons of flyers or *weak* skimmers. Most IG players consider the Vendetta and HellHound to be much better all-rounder choices for an IG army.
And as long as allied IG can take them in squadrons so do Marines =P.
The Vendetta was the worst thing to happen to the IG codex in the entire history of the army. An idiotically low-costed, hyper-efficient tank destroyer they didn't even make a model for, spammable in squadrons and utterly obsoleting dedicated gunships written into the game already? Thanks a lot, Cruddace. I'd rather crush my own fingers with a jackhammer than run Vendettas.
And when the bokk was written they knew that there were going to be rules for flyers, right? Did anyone run a lot of vendettas when they were just skimmers?
yes they did. In 5th they were great value lascannons that were needed to crack armor.
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Post by: Maelstrom808
DA tacs are the same cost as the proposed C:SM tacs and they they balance out fine against the warriors. Now they don't have the option to TL their guns without a little help from a libby, but then again they also can get a serious boost from the dakka banner.
Comparing everything in a vacuum, tac squads are far and away better than warriors at everything except glancing a vehicle to death at range. Taking everything in context though, and seeing how they function with the army as a whole, if the rumors play out as I'm thinking, it should be a pretty decent match up. The devil is always in the details though.
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Post by: Exergy
ClockworkZion wrote:Would it be reasonable, at some point I mean, to go back to discussing rumors instead of trying to compare codexes to each other?
I mean, I get that these are apparently very interesting discussions, but what the IG, BA, DA, CSM and Necrons have in their codexes has very little, if any, bearing on what the C: SM are getting, now do they?
as much as I and most CSM players are jealous, angry or moments away from becoming renegade Codex Astartes players yes we should respond to the rumors, not just complain about how OP many of them are.
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Post by: Vaktathi
yeah, vendettas were definitely run en-masse before they were fliers. Personally I liked them even more that way, you could use their lascannons on the all-important first turn alpha strike.
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Post by: Exergy
 Maelstrom808 wrote:DA tacs are the same cost as the proposed C: SM tacs and they they balance out fine against the warriors. Now they don't have the option to TL their guns without a little help from a libby, but then again they also can get a serious boost from the dakka banner.
I think you are getting some overflow from the DA change. CSM being 13 points. DA tacticals getting ATSKNF and Stubborn for 1 point was a bit much to take but of course CT stubborn is pretty awful.
Everyone knew that C: SM tacticals were going to be 14 points as well. We just didnt expect that they would get twinlinked weapons, 6+ FNP, or stealth as their CT.
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Post by: Kangodo
ClockworkZion wrote:Would it be reasonable, at some point I mean, to go back to discussing rumors instead of trying to compare codexes to each other? I mean, I get that these are apparently very interesting discussions, but what the IG, BA, DA, CSM and Necrons have in their codexes has very little, if any, bearing on what the C: SM are getting, now do they?
People are talking about the strength of these new units and of the changed units. So comparing them with other codices is only natural, it should be expected. Or do you want us to go back to the 20 pages of "centurions are ugly" and people asking 25 times what Grav-weapons do?  Sigvatr wrote:I'm not even bothering going further in your post. You seem to be new to the game or do not have much experience with / against Necrons. Saying that Necron Warriors are good at everything is just a wrong statement - and I'll leave it at that without further regard.
I have actually played this game for quite a while. And I have over 8000 points in Necrons and another 4k in Space Marines. That is why your statement is so laughable! Tactical Marines were way to expensive and I would try to avoid them as much as possible. So they needed a reduce in cost.  xole wrote:If people start taking tactical marines again, I have a reason to take LRBTs again. It will be a good day.
That is actually the thing that excites me the most: So many people are playing Space Marines that this new codex might change the meta a lot. Almost everyone can do a "counts-as" army, so we'll have new tactics and rules all over the place.
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Post by: xole
If people start taking tactical marines again, I will have a reason to take LRBTs again. It will be a good day.
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Post by: tvih
Saythings wrote:Any word on how cheap the BT dedicated transport- LRC is?
Rumors had it they would be slightly cheaper for BT- DT :'D
I could finally run 3 LRC in my 2k again!
Based on the WD battle report they're 260 points with a multi-melta. So that'd be 5 points less than currently.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Kangodo wrote:ClockworkZion wrote:Would it be reasonable, at some point I mean, to go back to discussing rumors instead of trying to compare codexes to each other?
I mean, I get that these are apparently very interesting discussions, but what the IG, BA, DA, CSM and Necrons have in their codexes has very little, if any, bearing on what the C: SM are getting, now do they?
People are talking about the strength of these new units and of the changed units.
So comparing them with other codices is only natural, it should be expected.
Or do you want us to go back to the 20 pages of "centurions are ugly" and people asking 25 times what Grav-weapons do?
It'd be better than the crying that X is so much better than Y for another 30 pages....again.
There is a lot of information but it seems to keep boiling back down to "That unit is so much better than this unit in my army! That's so unfair!". It's almost as if people can't see past the initial shock of what the codex is bringing and that 5th Edition books are designed around a different design philosophy than 6th.
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Post by: Maelstrom808
Exergy wrote: Maelstrom808 wrote:DA tacs are the same cost as the proposed C: SM tacs and they they balance out fine against the warriors. Now they don't have the option to TL their guns without a little help from a libby, but then again they also can get a serious boost from the dakka banner.
I think you are getting some overflow from the DA change. CSM being 13 points. DA tacticals getting ATSKNF and Stubborn for 1 point was a bit much to take but of course CT stubborn is pretty awful.
Everyone knew that C: SM tacticals were going to be 14 points as well. We just didnt expect that they would get twinlinked weapons, 6+ FNP, or stealth as their CT.
I hear you, but there are ways to give DA tacticals those things (and actually much better versions of all three at once) and they are far from unbalanced. You don't hear anyone making outrage posts over how broken or undercosted the DA tacs are. I know it's not a direct comparison, but in practical application, I think that what people will find is that the new CT will be far from over powered, and will be a needed boost.
As far as CSM are concerned, they got screwed plain and simple. One horribly broken unit to compensate for a codex that is 90% "meh" does not make for a good codex.
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Post by: Saythings
 tvih wrote:Saythings wrote:Any word on how cheap the BT dedicated transport- LRC is?
Rumors had it they would be slightly cheaper for BT- DT :'D
I could finally run 3 LRC in my 2k again!
Based on the WD battle report they're 260 points with a multi-melta. So that'd be 5 points less than currently.
Extra Armour was "free" for BT's. They probably took that off seeing how BTs are in the same codex as vanilla 'rines. I think it's safe to say there is no discount. Thanks for the citation though! 
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Post by: Maelstrom808
ClockworkZion wrote:Kangodo wrote:ClockworkZion wrote:Would it be reasonable, at some point I mean, to go back to discussing rumors instead of trying to compare codexes to each other?
I mean, I get that these are apparently very interesting discussions, but what the IG, BA, DA, CSM and Necrons have in their codexes has very little, if any, bearing on what the C: SM are getting, now do they?
People are talking about the strength of these new units and of the changed units.
So comparing them with other codices is only natural, it should be expected.
Or do you want us to go back to the 20 pages of "centurions are ugly" and people asking 25 times what Grav-weapons do?
It'd be better than the crying that X is so much better than Y for another 30 pages....again.
There is a lot of information but it seems to keep boiling back down to "That unit is so much better than this unit in my army! That's so unfair!". It's almost as if people can't see past the initial shock of what the codex is bringing and that 5th Edition books are designed around a different design philosophy than 6th.
Welcome to 40k rumor posts.
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Post by: Brother Weasel
ClockworkZion wrote: It's almost as if people can't see past the initial shock of what the codex is bringing and that 5th Edition books are designed around a different design philosophy than 6th.
They can't.. (and they shoun' dt nessesarily) because the books still work in the newest edition, so they will compare what they have with what's comming... been like that since second edition to 3rd... not going to stop anytime soon.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Maelstrom808 wrote:ClockworkZion wrote:Kangodo wrote:ClockworkZion wrote:Would it be reasonable, at some point I mean, to go back to discussing rumors instead of trying to compare codexes to each other?
I mean, I get that these are apparently very interesting discussions, but what the IG, BA, DA, CSM and Necrons have in their codexes has very little, if any, bearing on what the C: SM are getting, now do they?
People are talking about the strength of these new units and of the changed units.
So comparing them with other codices is only natural, it should be expected.
Or do you want us to go back to the 20 pages of "centurions are ugly" and people asking 25 times what Grav-weapons do?
It'd be better than the crying that X is so much better than Y for another 30 pages....again.
There is a lot of information but it seems to keep boiling back down to "That unit is so much better than this unit in my army! That's so unfair!". It's almost as if people can't see past the initial shock of what the codex is bringing and that 5th Edition books are designed around a different design philosophy than 6th.
Welcome to 40k rumor posts.
Oh I've been here a while. Doesn't mean I can't go "REALLY"? every once in a while.
11
Post by: ph34r
Pyriel- wrote:So its a codex with mediocre units but a few rules that make the mediocre bread and butter models better (rerolling) vs a codex with worse bread and butter units but that has very OP things everybody takes like nurgle oblits, helldrakes, etc?
Dunno which one I would choose.
Pyriel- wrote:implying C:SM did not have and won't now have equally OP options
HAH Automatically Appended Next Post:  Hulksmash wrote:Guess Tau and SM are the only ones who are so internally divergent they can ally with themselves.
Yeah, definitely so compared to the relatively homogenous and uniform Imperial Guard and traitor legions
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Post by: tvih
Saythings wrote:Extra Armour was "free" for BT's. They probably took that off seeing how BTs are in the same codex as vanilla 'rines. I think it's safe to say there is no discount. Thanks for the citation though!
Well, "free" as in baked-in, yeah - after all BT only pay those 5 points for Extra Armor currently on other vehicles. So if you want extra armor in the new Codex you'll end up at 270 points (based on the 10-point extra armor upgrade cost in the DA codex). So incidentally the whole thing is exactly the same cost as for DA. Meh!
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
Do we have any rumors about what the 6 relics do? The relic Storm Shield sounds intriguing; what's better than a 3++? Part of me hopes it's Eternal Warrior so that the legacy of the Adamantine Mantle Marshal can live on. That could also explain why they felt they had to change Lysander a bit.
Disclaimer: The above is purely my own speculation, which ought to be obvious. If you repost this as a "rumour you heard", angry gremlins will devour you in your sleep.
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Post by: The Dwarf Wolf
Good news, apparently, this new codex will ahve averything i wanted to do with my Mantic stuff... Long Live for the Demiurgs!!! (with codex marines)
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Post by: Maelstrom808
ClockworkZion wrote: Maelstrom808 wrote:ClockworkZion wrote:Kangodo wrote:ClockworkZion wrote:Would it be reasonable, at some point I mean, to go back to discussing rumors instead of trying to compare codexes to each other?
I mean, I get that these are apparently very interesting discussions, but what the IG, BA, DA, CSM and Necrons have in their codexes has very little, if any, bearing on what the C: SM are getting, now do they?
People are talking about the strength of these new units and of the changed units.
So comparing them with other codices is only natural, it should be expected.
Or do you want us to go back to the 20 pages of "centurions are ugly" and people asking 25 times what Grav-weapons do?
It'd be better than the crying that X is so much better than Y for another 30 pages....again.
There is a lot of information but it seems to keep boiling back down to "That unit is so much better than this unit in my army! That's so unfair!". It's almost as if people can't see past the initial shock of what the codex is bringing and that 5th Edition books are designed around a different design philosophy than 6th.
Welcome to 40k rumor posts.
Oh I've been here a while. Doesn't mean I can't go "REALLY"? every once in a while.
Yeah, I know. People are going to freak out no matter what. Then once things actually come out and have had time to circulate for awhile, 75% of what people were freaking out over turns out to be fine. It's the same pattern every time.
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Post by: General Hobbs
 d-usa wrote:Raven Guard fluff is quite different than the "jump pack heavy in-your-face black armored Blood Angels" that we sometimes see.
They rely on scouts quite a bit. They don't field huge scout armies, they do have recruitment problems per fluff. But they do rely on scouts and use them to inflitrate and call in precision strikes.
They are in fact a Codex chapter, and use all the 6/2/2 force org in each appropriate company. Scouts will be able to call in the appropriate forces needed draving from all tactical options that best fit the situation.
Jump Packs are one of their things, but it's not the "overwhelming angels of death raining from the sky" thing. It's a precision guerilla small unit "get in and get out" kind of attack.
Vanguard vets look like they give us an option for a proper "Shrike Wing".
The new codex looks like it gives us a lot of options for a proper fluffy Raven Guard army. Raven Guard fluff does not make them black armored Blood Angels though.
Edit: saw your post above and will try to reply to some of your concerns in a minute.
Going back to the old IA article, RG used scouts to scout out enemy positions, then used drop pods and thunderhawks to come in and strike quickly. The appropriate rules for RG would have been Stealth and reroll drop pod deepstriking. ( loved those old rules, so much fun).
I actually think the SW codex is best for representing RG. Grey Hunters are better at drop podding than BA, you can do a wing with wolf guard, the scouts operate the way I envision RG scouts operating, deep in cover, sabotaging the enemy from behind...There's even stories of mutated RG initiates which could count as Wulfen.
So let me get this right, once and for all.
If you take IF chapter traits, the only SC you can take are IF ones.
But you can ally with other Marine armies??? How does that work? If I take UM allies, I can then take Telion etc?
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Post by: Melcavuk
You would assume so in the same way if you take Tau allies you can take farsight
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Post by: Godless-Mimicry
General Hobbs wrote:But you can ally with other Marine armies??? How does that work? If I take UM allies, I can then take Telion etc?
I imagine for the purposes of allying different Chapters together you would essentially count them as different codices that are Battle Brothers, and then if allying any Chapter with another army completely you just consult Space Marines on the allies matrix (with the exception of Black Templars of course).
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Post by: plastictrees
ClockworkZion wrote:
Oh I've been here a while. Doesn't mean I can't go "REALLY"? every once in a while.
As long as the "REALLY?" is said sardonically with an exasperated sigh you're good. "REALLY?"s of genuine surprise will not be tolerated.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:Do we have any rumors about what the 6 relics do? The relic Storm Shield sounds intriguing; what's better than a 3++? Part of me hopes it's Eternal Warrior so that the legacy of the Adamantine Mantle Marshal can live on. That could also explain why they felt they had to change Lysander a bit.
Disclaimer: The above is purely my own speculation, which ought to be obvious. If you repost this as a "rumour you heard", angry gremlins will devour you in your sleep.
40k Radio hasn't spilled the beans yet on those. They're saving them for a show on the 1st apparently.
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Post by: Lobokai
Have we had a peak at Calgar's special rules yet (like pass/fail morale checks) or should I assume something like that is going to be a warlord trait.
45133
Post by: ClockworkZion
 Lobukia wrote:Have we had a peak at Calgar's special rules yet (like pass/fail morale checks) or should I assume something like that is going to be a warlord trait.
He now rolls 3 warlord traits, (and looks like he gets all 3 to boot), and his Terminator armor doesn't prevent him from Sweeping Advances. Automatically Appended Next Post:  plastictrees wrote:ClockworkZion wrote:
Oh I've been here a while. Doesn't mean I can't go "REALLY"? every once in a while.
As long as the "REALLY?" is said sardonically with an exasperated sigh you're good. "REALLY?"s of genuine surprise will not be tolerated.
It's usually paired with my hands being thrown in the air and me following up with "We're doing this AGAIN?"
Which does that count as?
37470
Post by: tomjoad
So, there's been no mention of a Space Marine psychic discipline yet. I've read that SM libbys will keep the same options from the main rule book, but will Null Zone live on in a specific SM discipline? or will this be the first new book without any new psychic powers (this seems unlikely)?
57815
Post by: Ferrum_Sanguinis
 tomjoad wrote:So, there's been no mention of a Space Marine psychic discipline yet. I've read that SM libbys will keep the same options from the main rule book, but will Null Zone live on in a specific SM discipline? or will this be the first new book without any new psychic powers (this seems unlikely)?
According to the leaks, there are no specific SM powers, the just chose the ones from the rulebook.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
tomjoad wrote:So, there's been no mention of a Space Marine psychic discipline yet. I've read that SM libbys will keep the same options from the main rule book, but will Null Zone live on in a specific SM discipline? or will this be the first new book without any new psychic powers (this seems unlikely)?
They lose the Codex Powers but keep the same rulebook powers.
37470
Post by: tomjoad
I'll just be a doubting Thomas on this one, then.
49693
Post by: Godless-Mimicry
tomjoad wrote:So, there's been no mention of a Space Marine psychic discipline yet. I've read that SM libbys will keep the same options from the main rule book, but will Null Zone live on in a specific SM discipline? or will this be the first new book without any new psychic powers (this seems unlikely)?
Of course it won't be the first book with no new Psychic powers, both Tau and Dark Angels beat them to it.
37470
Post by: tomjoad
Tau doesn't count and, technically, "power" can't be pluralized for DA, but who even remembers that thing even came out any more? Either way, I was right.
14698
Post by: Lansirill
tomjoad wrote:Tau doesn't count and, technically, "power" can't be pluralized for DA, but who even remembers that thing even came out any more? Either way, I was right.
Well, no, technically you would be wrong, which is the very worst kind of wrong.
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Post by: tomjoad
Pedantry is always wrong. I am right by default.
57815
Post by: Ferrum_Sanguinis
tomjoad wrote:Tau doesn't count and, technically, "power" can't be pluralized for DA, but who even remembers that thing even came out any more? Either way, I was right.
 Automatically Appended Next Post: As a BA player, I'm very excited about the pricing for Honor Guard. 25pts for 2+ armor and a power weapon? Hopefully that means that Sanguinary Guard (who stats wise are basically honor guard with jumppacks) will be either cheaper or have better weapons...
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Post by: Super Ready
 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:As a BA player, I'm very excited about the pricing for Honor Guard. 25pts for 2+ armor and a power weapon? Hopefully that means that Sanguinary Guard (who stats wise are basically honor guard with jumppacks) will be either cheaper or have better weapons...
I don't know about that, but I *DO* hope it's a good precedent for our own Honour Guard getting a 2+ save, *FINALLY* (even though we didn't in 5th). It's not like we have centuries longer to perfect our armour, or anything.
57815
Post by: Ferrum_Sanguinis
 Super Ready wrote: Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:As a BA player, I'm very excited about the pricing for Honor Guard. 25pts for 2+ armor and a power weapon? Hopefully that means that Sanguinary Guard (who stats wise are basically honor guard with jumppacks) will be either cheaper or have better weapons...
I don't know about that, but I *DO* hope it's a good precedent for our own Honour Guard getting a 2+ save, *FINALLY* (even though we didn't in 5th). It's not like we have centuries longer to perfect our armour, or anything.
Why? Our Honour Guard are basically just the Vanilla Marines' Command Squad, we have the same options and everything. The closet thing we have to the Vanilla Honor Guard is the Sanguinary guard.
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Post by: Leth
I am glad that codex space marines can ally with itself as long as you take a different chapters tactics.
Makes it easier to take some other things in slots being that you basically have 4 of them. (So for example I can take my three squads of sternguard and say a squad of vanguard)
Allows you to specialize your specific troups(so take squads of scouts from raven guard and tacticals from imperial fists).
Things like that. Now it might not appeal to everyone but seeing as how I play a deathwatch chapter that is about as close to squad based tactics as I am gonna get.
Also for once I am glad my birthday is when it is. Space Majeens AHOY
38817
Post by: dracpanzer
 Leth wrote:I am glad that codex space marines can ally with itself as long as you take a different chapters tactics.
I still have questions about what Shrike actually allows for RG, but this has certainly changed "some" of my thinking about a RG list. Shrike with a Vanguard squad and a RG scout squad alongside IF or UM stern/tacticals will help. Though the book keeping will make me sad.
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Post by: Quark
Maelstrom808 wrote:Yeah, I know. People are going to freak out no matter what. Then once things actually come out and have had time to circulate for awhile, 75% of what people were freaking out over turns out to be fine. It's the same pattern every time.
Howling Banshees best achievement: being in the 25%!
I am a bit worried about Tigurius being so insane, but I'll see when I can read the complete entry myself.
15511
Post by: Nocturnus
 Dracos wrote:Delicious QQ over Tactical squads here... For too long they have been an easy pass and easily identified weak-point.
The tears are/will be delicious.
Best post yet!
59330
Post by: Saythings
Quark wrote: Maelstrom808 wrote:Yeah, I know. People are going to freak out no matter what. Then once things actually come out and have had time to circulate for awhile, 75% of what people were freaking out over turns out to be fine. It's the same pattern every time.
Howling Banshees best achievement: being in the 25%!
I am a bit worried about Tigurius being so insane, but I'll see when I can read the complete entry myself.
I'm thinking Tigurius is going to be ridiculous. 3 powers, any discipline, reroll to powers, reroll to reserves (I think). Oh, and BTs (so far) have no restrictions for allied Pskyers... looks at Tigurius...
I hope my brothers don't read this or I'll get a flogging for mentioning an allied witch.
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Post by: d-usa
So all you really need to play whatever you want is magnetized shoulderpads and you can play with the best traits and ally with the other best chapter based on who you are playing!
Start out by painting all your Space Marines Green and magenize the shoulder pads for all the different chapters.Then just put the appropriate shoulder pad on the model for the game you are playing today!
The most obvious one is of course the Salamanders:
For Ultramarines just go with the Aurora Chapter:
Raven Guard? Play Dark Eagles:
Imperial Fists? Put on the Invaders shoulder pads:
White Scars? Go Mantis Warriors:
Problem solved!
11
Post by: ph34r
Nocturnus wrote: Dracos wrote:Delicious QQ over Tactical squads here... For too long they have been an easy pass and easily identified weak-point.
The tears are/will be delicious.
Best post yet!
My favorite part is how he thinks Tactical squads were bad
He might have more luck picking up Grey Knights, Necrons, or Yu-Gi-Oh :^)
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Post by: xruslanx
tactical squads are bad as they are though. Too expensive, no survivability and lacklustre firepower. Now we know that two of these have been addressed, or even all three if you're an iron hands player.
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Post by: MajorWesJanson
Sigvatr wrote:You can take 3 Rhinos at the cost of 1 Nightscythe. I'll just leave this here. Oh, you can also take a Ghost Bark for 115 pts. Now that's a steal!
Night Scythe is far faster than a rhino, and can move much faster than 6" and deploy troops. If it explodes/wrecked, the troops inside aren't harmed at all, just go into reserves. And a rhino does not have a twin-linked weapon that is rather effective at killing fliers/light vehicles.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:Do we have any rumors about what the 6 relics do? The relic Storm Shield sounds intriguing; what's better than a 3++? Part of me hopes it's Eternal Warrior so that the legacy of the Adamantine Mantle Marshal can live on. That could also explain why they felt they had to change Lysander a bit.
Disclaimer: The above is purely my own speculation, which ought to be obvious. If you repost this as a "rumour you heard", angry gremlins will devour you in your sleep.
The relic banner is probably the relic that grants a 6+ inv save. Storm Shield could be either Eternal Warrior, or it could be like the Space Wolf guy and grant you an extra attack in CC.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
MajorWesJanson wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote:Do we have any rumors about what the 6 relics do? The relic Storm Shield sounds intriguing; what's better than a 3++? Part of me hopes it's Eternal Warrior so that the legacy of the Adamantine Mantle Marshal can live on. That could also explain why they felt they had to change Lysander a bit.
Disclaimer: The above is purely my own speculation, which ought to be obvious. If you repost this as a "rumour you heard", angry gremlins will devour you in your sleep.
The relic banner is probably the relic that grants a 6+ inv save. Storm Shield could be either Eternal Warrior, or it could be like the Space Wolf guy and grant you an extra attack in CC.
Who knows, maybe you can throw the shield too, like that one guy does his hammer!
That'd be 2 Avengers down!
49693
Post by: Godless-Mimicry
ClockworkZion wrote:MajorWesJanson wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote:Do we have any rumors about what the 6 relics do? The relic Storm Shield sounds intriguing; what's better than a 3++? Part of me hopes it's Eternal Warrior so that the legacy of the Adamantine Mantle Marshal can live on. That could also explain why they felt they had to change Lysander a bit.
Disclaimer: The above is purely my own speculation, which ought to be obvious. If you repost this as a "rumour you heard", angry gremlins will devour you in your sleep.
The relic banner is probably the relic that grants a 6+ inv save. Storm Shield could be either Eternal Warrior, or it could be like the Space Wolf guy and grant you an extra attack in CC.
Who knows, maybe you can throw the shield too, like that one guy does his hammer!
That'd be 2 Avengers down!
3 by my count; IIRC there's a special character in the Necron book that Hulks out.
54671
Post by: Crazyterran
ClockworkZion wrote:MajorWesJanson wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote:Do we have any rumors about what the 6 relics do? The relic Storm Shield sounds intriguing; what's better than a 3++? Part of me hopes it's Eternal Warrior so that the legacy of the Adamantine Mantle Marshal can live on. That could also explain why they felt they had to change Lysander a bit.
Disclaimer: The above is purely my own speculation, which ought to be obvious. If you repost this as a "rumour you heard", angry gremlins will devour you in your sleep.
The relic banner is probably the relic that grants a 6+ inv save. Storm Shield could be either Eternal Warrior, or it could be like the Space Wolf guy and grant you an extra attack in CC.
Who knows, maybe you can throw the shield too, like that one guy does his hammer!
That'd be 2 Avengers down!
What, is Calgar Iron Man due to his fist-guns? Lysander Thor due to his S10 Hammer?
67219
Post by: livanbard
Crazyterran wrote:ClockworkZion wrote:MajorWesJanson wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote:Do we have any rumors about what the 6 relics do? The relic Storm Shield sounds intriguing; what's better than a 3++? Part of me hopes it's Eternal Warrior so that the legacy of the Adamantine Mantle Marshal can live on. That could also explain why they felt they had to change Lysander a bit.
Disclaimer: The above is purely my own speculation, which ought to be obvious. If you repost this as a "rumour you heard", angry gremlins will devour you in your sleep.
The relic banner is probably the relic that grants a 6+ inv save. Storm Shield could be either Eternal Warrior, or it could be like the Space Wolf guy and grant you an extra attack in CC.
Who knows, maybe you can throw the shield too, like that one guy does his hammer!
That'd be 2 Avengers down!
What, is Calgar Iron Man due to his fist-guns? Lysander Thor due to his S10 Hammer?
Space Wolf guy is Thor, relic shield with throw could be Captain America.
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Post by: Ascalam
Lelith as Black Widow?
Hulk is Ghazzy. Accept no substitute
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Post by: dkellyj
Saythings wrote:Quark wrote: Maelstrom808 wrote:Yeah, I know. People are going to freak out no matter what. Then once things actually come out and have had time to circulate for awhile, 75% of what people were freaking out over turns out to be fine. It's the same pattern every time.
Howling Banshees best achievement: being in the 25%!
I am a bit worried about Tigurius being so insane, but I'll see when I can read the complete entry myself.
I'm thinking Tigurius is going to be ridiculous. 3 powers, any discipline, reroll to powers, reroll to reserves (I think). Oh, and BTs (so far) have no restrictions for allied Pskyers... looks at Tigurius...
I hope my brothers don't read this or I'll get a flogging for mentioning an allied witch.
Yeah, but he's still a T4 W2 3+ no invul dude who dies to the first double tap plasma or melta wound that hits him. So while he's got some insane-good Psyker abilities...at some point he has to get out of the car, and then he will be toast rather quickly.
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Post by: AHReese
I've followed the thread pretty closely, but has there been any information/speculation on non-updated kits getting a price raise?
With GW's new raise at release/update policy, I'm wondering if any of the other plastic kits will be going up. Or has GW hit their threshold for now?
54671
Post by: Crazyterran
dkellyj wrote:Saythings wrote:Quark wrote: Maelstrom808 wrote:Yeah, I know. People are going to freak out no matter what. Then once things actually come out and have had time to circulate for awhile, 75% of what people were freaking out over turns out to be fine. It's the same pattern every time.
Howling Banshees best achievement: being in the 25%!
I am a bit worried about Tigurius being so insane, but I'll see when I can read the complete entry myself.
I'm thinking Tigurius is going to be ridiculous. 3 powers, any discipline, reroll to powers, reroll to reserves (I think). Oh, and BTs (so far) have no restrictions for allied Pskyers... looks at Tigurius...
I hope my brothers don't read this or I'll get a flogging for mentioning an allied witch.
Yeah, but he's still a T4 W2 3+ no invul dude who dies to the first double tap plasma or melta wound that hits him. So while he's got some insane-good Psyker abilities...at some point he has to get out of the car, and then he will be toast rather quickly.
That's what ablative wounds are for. (combat squads)
But really, other than sitting far enough away to cast Misfortune and stuff that isn't prescience, since who needs that as Ultramarines... maybe give him and his escort a 4+ invuln... (he has a reasonable chance at getting it if you put all 3 powers into Divination). Misfortune, Precog, Forewarning, and Perfect timing will all be great powers to get without having to really worry about Prescience.
Tigirius with a 4 Plas Cannon dev squad casting Perfect Timing would be pretty scary for some things, I imagine.
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Post by: Lobokai
@Clockwork.... thanks for being the ambassador for the 40k Radio Q&A!
Any hints on what the Warlord Traits are?
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Post by: Wrecker
So I am not going to dig threw 100+ pages to find this answer if there is one. So my question is when? And is all hope for CSM lost?
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Post by: ClockworkZion
AHReese wrote:I've followed the thread pretty closely, but has there been any information/speculation on non-updated kits getting a price raise?
With GW's new raise at release/update policy, I'm wondering if any of the other plastic kits will be going up. Or has GW hit their threshold for now?
Haven't seen word on any prices raises beyond the new releases.
Lobukia wrote:@Clockwork.... thanks for being the ambassador for the 40k Radio Q&A!
Any hints on what the Warlord Traits are?
No problem! I love digging into rumors so it's just a good deal for everyone!
Now both Warlord Traits and Relics are things they're saving for their 1 Sep show.
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Post by: SoloFalcon1138
 Wrecker wrote:So I am not going to dig threw 100+ pages to find this answer if there is one. So my question is when? And is all hope for CSM lost?
Yes. Chaos Marines are done. burn your models and try again...
/sarcasm
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Wrecker wrote:So I am not going to dig threw 100+ pages to find this answer if there is one. So my question is when? And is all hope for CSM lost?
When Marines get released? First Saturday of September: the 7th.
And all hope is only lost if you subscribe to such doomsaying. The CSM book is more playable than people give it credit for still, I just see complaints from people who refuse to use anything but the simplest combos.
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Post by: StarTrotter
ClockworkZion wrote: Wrecker wrote:So I am not going to dig threw 100+ pages to find this answer if there is one. So my question is when? And is all hope for CSM lost?
When Marines get released? First Saturday of September: the 7th.
And all hope is only lost if you subscribe to such doomsaying. The CSM book is more playable than people give it credit for still, I just see complaints from people who refuse to use anything but the simplest combos.
Personally my gripes are primarily TS still being a let down, inability to really create a legion, lack of agressive vehicles (drop pods), the stupid USSR, daemons with marks, and the undervalued pricing of ANSKNF and a free extra bonus ability.
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Post by: davou
dkellyj wrote:Saythings wrote:Quark wrote: Maelstrom808 wrote:Yeah, I know. People are going to freak out no matter what. Then once things actually come out and have had time to circulate for awhile, 75% of what people were freaking out over turns out to be fine. It's the same pattern every time.
Howling Banshees best achievement: being in the 25%!
I am a bit worried about Tigurius being so insane, but I'll see when I can read the complete entry myself.
I'm thinking Tigurius is going to be ridiculous. 3 powers, any discipline, reroll to powers, reroll to reserves (I think). Oh, and BTs (so far) have no restrictions for allied Pskyers... looks at Tigurius...
I hope my brothers don't read this or I'll get a flogging for mentioning an allied witch.
Yeah, but he's still a T4 W2 3+ no invul dude who dies to the first double tap plasma or melta wound that hits him. So while he's got some insane-good Psyker abilities...at some point he has to get out of the car, and then he will be toast rather quickly.
There at least some chance he will be allowed to hold some of the chapter relics...
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Post by: prowla
 StarTrotter wrote:ClockworkZion wrote: Wrecker wrote:So I am not going to dig threw 100+ pages to find this answer if there is one. So my question is when? And is all hope for CSM lost?
When Marines get released? First Saturday of September: the 7th.
And all hope is only lost if you subscribe to such doomsaying. The CSM book is more playable than people give it credit for still, I just see complaints from people who refuse to use anything but the simplest combos.
Personally my gripes are primarily TS still being a let down, inability to really create a legion, lack of agressive vehicles (drop pods), the stupid USSR, daemons with marks, and the undervalued pricing of ANSKNF and a free extra bonus ability.
Hehe, yeah. GW is all about "create your own awesome army with a cool theme and tons of background and history!" - then when you pick one of the most iconic CSM armies, the Thousand Sons, you're left with "oh sorry, this new codex really has nothing viable for your army - but here, buy three daemon engines and paint them blue!" 
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Post by: MajorWesJanson
ClockworkZion wrote:AHReese wrote:I've followed the thread pretty closely, but has there been any information/speculation on non-updated kits getting a price raise?
With GW's new raise at release/update policy, I'm wondering if any of the other plastic kits will be going up. Or has GW hit their threshold for now?
Haven't seen word on any prices raises beyond the new releases.
Wasn't there a rumor that the rhino box would go away in favor of the razorback kit?
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Post by: daisho
 prowla wrote:
Hehe, yeah. GW is all about "create your own awesome army with a cool theme and tons of background and history!" - then when you pick one of the most iconic CSM armies, the Thousand Sons, you're left with "oh sorry, this new codex really has nothing viable for your army - but here, buy three daemon engines and paint them blue!"
" Imho" the CSM codex already has a lot of options, do you really want a codex for every sub-force of CSM? Then everybody would whine "Why can't I take a Khorne Berserker squad with my Thousand Sons army?" - really, I would never ever trade that flexibility away for some additional new mediocre units.
Only problem that I see is that Mark of Nurgle is underpriced for what it does in 6E, of course every Troop has a Mark of Nurgle. Heldrake is just " lol", an AP3 flamer that wounds Marines on 2+ who can move 36" before shooting as 360" Torrent - it's obviously broken.
But there are other choices too, and I don't think they are bad ... they are just not that cost-effective as the others - a shame, I admit.
But e.g. the Forgefiend ... 2 Hades Autocannons, okay ... it's 175 points, but I think it's a fair price for having a Dreadnought with It Will not Die that shoots double the amount as a Grey Knight Psyfleman with Pinning - Hello?
Of course nobody takes it, because those points are reserved for the flying circus. *boring*
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Post by: NoggintheNog
d-usa wrote:So all you really need to play whatever you want is magnetized shoulderpads and you can play with the best traits and ally with the other best chapter based on who you are playing!
Start out by painting all your Space Marines Green and magenize the shoulder pads for all the different chapters.Then just put the appropriate shoulder pad on the model for the game you are playing today!
Problem solved!
That's still over complicating it.
You freelance your chapter, paint it whatever way you want, and its played under whatever chapter rules you decide it is when you draw your list up.
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Post by: StarTrotter
daisho wrote: prowla wrote:
Hehe, yeah. GW is all about "create your own awesome army with a cool theme and tons of background and history!" - then when you pick one of the most iconic CSM armies, the Thousand Sons, you're left with "oh sorry, this new codex really has nothing viable for your army - but here, buy three daemon engines and paint them blue!"
" Imho" the CSM codex already has a lot of options, do you really want a codex for every sub-force of CSM? Then everybody would whine "Why can't I take a Khorne Berserker squad with my Thousand Sons army?" - really, I would never ever trade that flexibility away for some additional new mediocre units.
Only problem that I see is that Mark of Nurgle is underpriced for what it does in 6E, of course every Troop has a Mark of Nurgle. Heldrake is just " lol", an AP3 flamer that wounds Marines on 2+ who can move 36" before shooting as 360" Torrent - it's obviously broken.
But there are other choices too, and I don't think they are bad ... they are just not that cost-effective as the others - a shame, I admit.
But e.g. the Forgefiend ... 2 Hades Autocannons, okay ... it's 175 points, but I think it's a fair price for having a Dreadnought with It Will not Die that shoots double the amount as a Grey Knight Psyfleman with Pinning - Hello?
Of course nobody takes it, because those points are reserved for the flying circus. *boring*
at bs3 meaning half the shots will miss miserably. To be honest bigger problem is that Autocannon Havocs and lascannon predators tend to be better in general. And yes. Yes I would love to actually have a CSM codex that lets me play a World Eater army. Hey if I pick the World Eaters they get universal fearless and all these passives on all models so that when my berzerker grabs terminator armour they automatically lose their power armour berzerker abilities. And no not everybody would whine. The biggest complaints coming up for the SM is that you cannot use some of the UM chars to make up for your lack of unique characters for Iron Hands and the sorts. Why not make it work like the SM codex (rumours wise). YOu can ally TS and Berzerkers. Make a renegade section that lets you do things as usual but then give segments so people can play the legions they love. Would some people still complain when Ahriman is limited to TS or something? Yes but not everybody would complain. The world is expansive and I assume many would be happy that at the very least they wouldn't have to build their World Eater list by only deploying Berzerkers and Kharn. Also, what rubs this individual is that the CSM army represent a more diverse brevity of legions/warbands than SM yet (and this could be said to be something CSM share with IG and many others) SM are the ones that let you play your army in multiple ways (also can you really say re-rolling ones on all to hits on guns and then all tacticals having twin-linked all guns bad?)
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Post by: frozenwastes
Right now GenCon is going on-- it's the largest gaming convention on the planet (though there might be one in Germany that is technically bigger, but I think it's also about toys in general) and companies are there showing off their latest and upcoming stuff. Apparently GW has a booth there this year. Anyone stop buy to see if they are actually showing any new models in person? Or have they just gone for a sales booth approach?
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Post by: prowla
daisho wrote:
" Imho" the CSM codex already has a lot of options, do you really want a codex for every sub-force of CSM? Then everybody would whine "Why can't I take a Khorne Berserker squad with my Thousand Sons army?" - really, I would never ever trade that flexibility away for some additional new mediocre units.
The point really is that you should be able to field a functional Thousand Sons army without having to take units that don't fit in. CSM is one of the most fluffbunny friendly factions, as there's tons of cool background (especially with HH books) and flavor, with plenty of unique fluffy forces to choose from. The codex not catering to building functional and fluffy armies is pretty huge shot in the leg, in that sense.
You also have to remember that GW could create a CSM codex that would represent both mixed warbands and traitor legions, if they wanted to put some effort in it. It might take a bit of fiddling with special characters etc., add a few pages to the codex, but it would make everyone sort of happy.
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Post by: The Division Of Joy
Can we get this on the first page please chaps?
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Post by: Crazyterran
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Post by: daisho
prowla wrote:
The point really is that you should be able to field a functional Thousand Sons army without having to take units that don't fit in. CSM is one of the most fluffbunny friendly factions, as there's tons of cool background (especially with HH books) and flavor, with plenty of unique fluffy forces to choose from. The codex not catering to building functional and fluffy armies is pretty huge shot in the leg, in that sense.
You also have to remember that GW could create a CSM codex that would represent both mixed warbands and traitor legions, if they wanted to put some effort in it. It might take a bit of fiddling with special characters etc., add a few pages to the codex, but it would make everyone sort of happy.
You could already field some Chaos Space Marines with Mark of Tzeentch, Cultists fit in every detachment, Chaos Sorcerers and Thousand Sons. Convert/Paint your Rhinos, Predators, Land Raiders to fit that theme. I don't know why they removed Dreadnoughts though?
We all have dreams, I would also like a combined Inquisition codex with Ordo Xenos, Malleus and Hereticus in one book - having a lot of options to choose. But no, I've got C: SM, Codex Grey Knights which is completely nonsense (wish I could have an updated Codex Daemonhunters back) and incorporates Ordo Xenos and Hereticus Inquisitors incl. Karamazov which now doesn't exist in the White Dwarf toilet paper called Sisters of Battle
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Post by: d-usa
So Flakk Missiles for the Missile Launcher.
Is the only way to get them via Devastator Squads, or can Tactical Squad Missile Launchers get them as well?
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Post by: daisho
d-usa wrote:So Flakk Missiles for the Missile Launcher.
Is the only way to get them via Devastator Squads, or can Tactical Squad Missile Launchers get them as well?
I bet they will be available on both, would make no sense to not have them on tacticals ( imho).
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Post by: d-usa
daisho wrote: d-usa wrote:So Flakk Missiles for the Missile Launcher.
Is the only way to get them via Devastator Squads, or can Tactical Squad Missile Launchers get them as well?
I bet they will be available on both, would make no sense to not have them on tacticals ( imho).
Well, Fluff wise they could argue that Devastators are more of the "anti vehicle/tank/flyer" squad and that specialization makes them better at taking out flyers than Tacticals".
In a codex writing mindset it would be a way to force you to make decisions when building lists and what to put in your Heavy slot.
I hope that Tacticals/Scouts/etc have access though.
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Post by: xxvaderxx
I will need to figure out a way to differentiate units from different codexes/chapters. I am thinking either casting a sort "holster for the base" and color it with the chapter color or a marker with the chapter symbol. Ideally i lean towards the holster, but its a bit more work. Im thinking Playing my wolves ultras with an allied detachment of white scars, which will essentially be a captain with a bike squad and an assault squad.
What other ideas do you guys have to differentiate your forces?.
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Post by: Crazyterran
xxvaderxx wrote:I will need to figure out a way to differentiate units from different codexes/chapters. I am thinking either casting a sort "holster for the base" and color it with the chapter color or a marker with the chapter symbol. Ideally i lean towards the holster, but its a bit more work. Im thinking Playing my wolves ultras with an allied detachment of white scars, which will essentially be a captain with a bike squad and an assault squad.
What other ideas do you guys have to differentiate your forces?.
Different company markings. I already paint my Bikes as 6th Company, for example.
So, if i Ally in Salamanders, and I decided to take combi-weapon Sternguard, all the models would be first company. (and probably scouts, who wouldn't have markings. or flame weapons... or meltas...)
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Post by: Yodhrin
d-usa wrote:daisho wrote: d-usa wrote:So Flakk Missiles for the Missile Launcher.
Is the only way to get them via Devastator Squads, or can Tactical Squad Missile Launchers get them as well?
I bet they will be available on both, would make no sense to not have them on tacticals ( imho).
Well, Fluff wise they could argue that Devastators are more of the "anti vehicle/tank/flyer" squad and that specialization makes them better at taking out flyers than Tacticals".
In a codex writing mindset it would be a way to force you to make decisions when building lists and what to put in your Heavy slot.
I hope that Tacticals/Scouts/etc have access though.
If they give them to Scouts, that's just another advantage for Ultramarines over the other chapters, since only they can take Telion now.
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Post by: Verd_Warr
d-usa wrote:daisho wrote: d-usa wrote:So Flakk Missiles for the Missile Launcher.
Is the only way to get them via Devastator Squads, or can Tactical Squad Missile Launchers get them as well?
I bet they will be available on both, would make no sense to not have them on tacticals ( imho).
Well, Fluff wise they could argue that Devastators are more of the "anti vehicle/tank/flyer" squad and that specialization makes them better at taking out flyers than Tacticals".
In a codex writing mindset it would be a way to force you to make decisions when building lists and what to put in your Heavy slot.
I hope that Tacticals/Scouts/etc have access though.
Not that it's definitive, but CSM only get Flakk missiles on Havocs and iirc DA didn't get them on tacticals either.
I stand corrected by Shadox.
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Post by: Shadox
d-usa wrote:daisho wrote: d-usa wrote:So Flakk Missiles for the Missile Launcher. Is the only way to get them via Devastator Squads, or can Tactical Squad Missile Launchers get them as well?
I bet they will be available on both, would make no sense to not have them on tacticals ( imho).
Well, Fluff wise they could argue that Devastators are more of the "anti vehicle/tank/flyer" squad and that specialization makes them better at taking out flyers than Tacticals". In a codex writing mindset it would be a way to force you to make decisions when building lists and what to put in your Heavy slot. I hope that Tacticals/Scouts/etc have access though.
DA have them on both so it's almost guaranteed that we will get them too.
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Post by: xxvaderxx
Crazyterran wrote:xxvaderxx wrote:I will need to figure out a way to differentiate units from different codexes/chapters. I am thinking either casting a sort "holster for the base" and color it with the chapter color or a marker with the chapter symbol. Ideally i lean towards the holster, but its a bit more work. Im thinking Playing my wolves ultras with an allied detachment of white scars, which will essentially be a captain with a bike squad and an assault squad.
What other ideas do you guys have to differentiate your forces?.
Different company markings. I already paint my Bikes as 6th Company, for example.
So, if i Ally in Salamanders, and I decided to take combi-weapon Sternguard, all the models would be first company. (and probably scouts, who wouldn't have markings. or flame weapons... or meltas...)
It is not a bad idea, i thou i was thinking something more along the lines for models already painted and dumb proof.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
MajorWesJanson wrote:Wasn't there a rumor that the rhino box would go away in favor of the razorback kit?
I believe that was just speculation, but it's not impossible. Even after they increased the price of the Razorback most people buy those over the standard Rhino anyways, so I don't really see an issue with them doing it.
And cue someone to tell me I'm wrong.
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Post by: Crimson
 Shadox wrote:
DA have them on both so it's almost guaranteed that we will get them too.
So Ultras will have twin-linked flakk missiles on Tac squads. Great.
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Post by: Ironwill13791
ClockworkZion wrote:MajorWesJanson wrote:Wasn't there a rumor that the rhino box would go away in favor of the razorback kit?
I believe that was just speculation, but it's not impossible. Even after they increased the price of the Razorback most people buy those over the standard Rhino anyways, so I don't really see an issue with them doing it.
And cue someone to tell me I'm wrong.
I agree with you. I need razorbacks for my army anyway and I would have them able to convert back and forth between Razor and Rhino. So just having a razorback kit wouldn't be an issue.
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Post by: UltraPrime
xxvaderxx wrote:I will need to figure out a way to differentiate units from different codexes/chapters. I am thinking either casting a sort "holster for the base" and color it with the chapter color or a marker with the chapter symbol. Ideally i lean towards the holster, but its a bit more work. Im thinking Playing my wolves ultras with an allied detachment of white scars, which will essentially be a captain with a bike squad and an assault squad.
What other ideas do you guys have to differentiate your forces?.
Paint them in their Chapter colours. Wild idea, I know. Not a fan of FotM players.
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Post by: ph34r
xxvaderxx wrote:I will need to figure out a way to differentiate units from different codexes/chapters. I am thinking either casting a sort "holster for the base" and color it with the chapter color or a marker with the chapter symbol. Ideally i lean towards the holster, but its a bit more work. Im thinking Playing my wolves ultras with an allied detachment of white scars, which will essentially be a captain with a bike squad and an assault squad.
What other ideas do you guys have to differentiate your forces?.
Paint the space wolves space wolf colors and use the space wolf book, and then paint your white scars white.
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Post by: daisho
 Crimson wrote:So Ultras will have twin-linked flakk missiles on Tac squads. Great.
I can't believe ultra tactics are really that good, I can imagine that those rerolls only work on bolters!?
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Post by: Kirasu
So Space Marines now get 3 HQ, 3-8 troops and 4 fast attack, elite and heavy support?
Doesn't feel like how Allies were supposed to work but I guess it sells more space marines.
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Post by: Exergy
daisho wrote: prowla wrote:
Hehe, yeah. GW is all about "create your own awesome army with a cool theme and tons of background and history!" - then when you pick one of the most iconic CSM armies, the Thousand Sons, you're left with "oh sorry, this new codex really has nothing viable for your army - but here, buy three daemon engines and paint them blue!"
" Imho" the CSM codex already has a lot of options, do you really want a codex for every sub-force of CSM? Then everybody would whine "Why can't I take a Khorne Berserker squad with my Thousand Sons army?" - really, I would never ever trade that flexibility away for some additional new mediocre units.
Only problem that I see is that Mark of Nurgle is underpriced for what it does in 6E, of course every Troop has a Mark of Nurgle. Heldrake is just " lol", an AP3 flamer that wounds Marines on 2+ who can move 36" before shooting as 360" Torrent - it's obviously broken.
But there are other choices too, and I don't think they are bad ... they are just not that cost-effective as the others - a shame, I admit.
But e.g. the Forgefiend ... 2 Hades Autocannons, okay ... it's 175 points, but I think it's a fair price for having a Dreadnought with It Will not Die that shoots double the amount as a Grey Knight Psyfleman with Pinning - Hello?
Of course nobody takes it, because those points are reserved for the flying circus. *boring*
the flexibility to take crappy units with other crappy units? You can take one squad of mutilators, one squad of khorne zerkers, and one squad of thousand sons woooo. none of them are any good now or will be any good after C: SM gets all its shiny new whistles.
MoN isnt OP. It makes most troops cost 20-25% more and gives you a little bit more survivability. None of the other marks do diddly so it is the only choice people ever put on things.
Forgefiends are BS3, pysrifleman are BS4 twinlinked. So a psyrifleman gets 3.55 hits while a forgefined gets 4 hits on average. The defensive ablities pretty much equal each other and so basically GW gave CSM a unit equal to one of the best units in 5th edition in 6th when that unit had basically been invalidated. Do you see much GK psyrifleman spam anymore? no
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Post by: Bulldogging
 Kirasu wrote:So Space Marines now get 3 HQ, 3-8 troops and 4 fast attack, elite and heavy support?
Doesn't feel like how Allies were supposed to work but I guess it sells more space marines.
Well, they can't reuse Chapter Tactics or Characters. So it's not that much different than allying in SW, BA, or DA..or to a similar extent BT.
Now if you could have something like 2 Tiguriuses(Tiguri? lol), that would be different.
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Post by: Kirasu
It's pretty different from SW allying with BA due to the fact that they aren't 100% identical codices.. Yes chapter tactics will be different, but you still can use 4 thunderfire cannons :p
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Post by: daisho
Exergy wrote:
the flexibility to take crappy units with other crappy units? You can take one squad of mutilators, one squad of khorne zerkers, and one squad of thousand sons woooo.
They are not crap, they are just overpriced compared to other choices and/or codizes.
Exergy wrote:
none of them are any good now or will be any good after C: SM gets all its shiny new whistles.
Sounds like whinery
Exergy wrote:
MoN isnt OP. It makes most troops cost 20-25% more and gives you a little bit more survivability. None of the other marks do diddly so it is the only choice people ever put on things.
Which is a shame.
But having +1 defense on a d6 is not "a little bit" nor are e.g. un-insta-killable characters etc (hence why only a few characters have Eternal Warrior, because it's awesome)
Exergy wrote:Forgefiends are BS3, pysrifleman are BS4 twinlinked. So a psyrifleman gets 3.55 hits while a forgefined gets 4 hits on average. The defensive ablities pretty much equal each other and so basically GW gave CSM a unit equal to one of the best units in 5th edition in 6th when that unit had basically been invalidated. Do you see much GK psyrifleman spam anymore? no
ok, I oversaw the BS3. Psyflemen are still one of the onliest options against armour (besides the Henchmen spam) - yeah, there is that flying egg called Stormraven (not gonna buy this kit) and the Dreadknight (not gonna buy this kit)
/Edit:
But whatever, it's GWS ... they will not stop the power creep - so you can live with it, or not.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Think of it as a lesser form of double FOC Kirasu.
Besides, it's not like they get all those toys for free. More points dropped into a gimmick list, the less left over for other things.
And it could be a precursor to how they "fix" Nid allies.
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Post by: Kirasu
ClockworkZion wrote:Think of it as a lesser form of double FOC Kirasu.
Besides, it's not like they get all those toys for free. More points dropped into a gimmick list, the less left over for other things.
And it could be a precursor to how they "fix" Nid allies.
Might as well just get rid of allies if the fix for allies is allowing everyone to take themselves as allies! (Like Tau prior and probably black legion?)
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Post by: Do_I_Not_Like_That
Kirasu wrote:So Space Marines now get 3 HQ, 3-8 troops and 4 fast attack, elite and heavy support?
Doesn't feel like how Allies were supposed to work but I guess it sells more space marines.
Not when they're £25 a box!
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Post by: xxvaderxx
 ph34r wrote:xxvaderxx wrote:I will need to figure out a way to differentiate units from different codexes/chapters. I am thinking either casting a sort "holster for the base" and color it with the chapter color or a marker with the chapter symbol. Ideally i lean towards the holster, but its a bit more work. Im thinking Playing my wolves ultras with an allied detachment of white scars, which will essentially be a captain with a bike squad and an assault squad.
What other ideas do you guys have to differentiate your forces?.
Paint the space wolves space wolf colors and use the space wolf book, and then paint your white scars white.
Yeah... no, will do that the second GW prints a codex for every edition, till then the color the power armor is painted its irrelevant to me, ill only play current edition dexes, that the whole reason i picked marines.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Kirasu wrote:ClockworkZion wrote:Think of it as a lesser form of double FOC Kirasu.
Besides, it's not like they get all those toys for free. More points dropped into a gimmick list, the less left over for other things.
And it could be a precursor to how they "fix" Nid allies.
Might as well just get rid of allies if the fix for allies is allowing everyone to take themselves as allies! (Like Tau prior and probably black legion?)
No. Seriously, just no.
Tyranids can't ally with any other codex. Allowing them to use those ally slots for extra options (at the cost of an extra HQ) is a completely fair concept.
With the Marines the allied slots allow you to bring in a second chapter who uses different traits since the books basically shuts down using most of the Special Characters and rules and restricts you to specific builds for your chapter tactics. And to do this they lose the ability to take other options, like Tau or Eldar who have things that can also benefit the Marines.
That is nothing like allowing every army to ally with themselves when they don't have have some kind of penalty working in there that makes the self-ally set-up worth taking. The rules aren't nearly as broken as people are claiming, and frankly these claims are of every codex needing whatever the Marines do is (in my opinion at least) stupid. We should be excited that the game is taking steps to make the books different and more varied in playstyle than just making everything in power armor a clone of itself.
From where I'm sitting at least, the game is doing nothing but getting better the more the books diverge from each other and I like it.
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Post by: spamthulhu
ClockworkZion wrote: Kirasu wrote:ClockworkZion wrote:Think of it as a lesser form of double FOC Kirasu.
Besides, it's not like they get all those toys for free. More points dropped into a gimmick list, the less left over for other things.
And it could be a precursor to how they "fix" Nid allies.
Might as well just get rid of allies if the fix for allies is allowing everyone to take themselves as allies! (Like Tau prior and probably black legion?)
No. Seriously, just no.
Tyranids can't ally with any other codex. Allowing them to use those ally slots for extra options (at the cost of an extra HQ) is a completely fair concept.
With the Marines the allied slots allow you to bring in a second chapter who uses different traits since the books basically shuts down using most of the Special Characters and rules and restricts you to specific builds for your chapter tactics. And to do this they lose the ability to take other options, like Tau or Eldar who have things that can also benefit the Marines.
That is nothing like allowing every army to ally with themselves when they don't have have some kind of penalty working in there that makes the self-ally set-up worth taking. The rules aren't nearly as broken as people are claiming, and frankly these claims are of every codex needing whatever the Marines do is (in my opinion at least) stupid. We should be excited that the game is taking steps to make the books different and more varied in playstyle than just making everything in power armor a clone of itself.
From where I'm sitting at least, the game is doing nothing but getting better the more the books diverge from each other and I like it.
I agree with this especially considering that the first few codex books seemed to be taming things down and then Tau hit. Then Eldar. The power curve jumped back up a bit. They are handing out AP2 like candy.
I still don't see anything here that is making marines ridiculous. I see the power curve between the standard marines and the other armies closing a decent bit with the changes.
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Post by: Azreal13
spamthulhu wrote:
I still don't see anything here that is making marines ridiculous. I see the power curve between the standard marines and the other armies closing a decent bit with the changes.
Except Bangles, who are now very much the fat, sweaty, wheezing kid trying to keep up with the others on a hike.
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Post by: timetowaste85
Sonuvabitch. Seeing the new Sterns, new Vans, new tanks and the chappies...I want. Maybe a Libby too. We'll see. No Centurians. Lol. But I'm not reopening that can of worms. I just don't want em.
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Post by: Lansirill
xxvaderxx wrote:Crazyterran wrote:xxvaderxx wrote:I will need to figure out a way to differentiate units from different codexes/chapters. I am thinking either casting a sort "holster for the base" and color it with the chapter color or a marker with the chapter symbol. Ideally i lean towards the holster, but its a bit more work. Im thinking Playing my wolves ultras with an allied detachment of white scars, which will essentially be a captain with a bike squad and an assault squad.
What other ideas do you guys have to differentiate your forces?.
Different company markings. I already paint my Bikes as 6th Company, for example.
So, if i Ally in Salamanders, and I decided to take combi-weapon Sternguard, all the models would be first company. (and probably scouts, who wouldn't have markings. or flame weapons... or meltas...)
It is not a bad idea, i thou i was thinking something more along the lines for models already painted and dumb proof.
I really like your idea of casting holsters for the bases, but the problem with that is you end up making the base too big. You could try and do some sort of colored disk underneath the base like the Sedition Wars stuff, which would be pretty slick, but probably way too dang much work.
Any idea if there's a nice glossy paint you could paint the edges of your bases with, then use some dry erase or water soluble pens to color them in? I'm torn on the idea of colored base rings since while it's a great way to mark units, it also can be a bit of an eye-sore, but if you could set it up so that you could change the colors for each game it might not be a bad idea. Plus you could always color them in to match the table surface if you were feeling like making things look all pretty and shiny.
PS. I love this new mechanical keyboard. Impossible to type quietly when my wife is asleep, but the clicka-clicka is a damn satisfying sound when I'm typing away at something.
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Post by: Pyriel-
xruslanx wrote:tactical squads are bad as they are though. Too expensive, no survivability and lacklustre firepower. Now we know that two of these have been addressed, or even all three if you're an iron hands player.
Yep. Might be better of him to keep to his pokemon.
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Post by: ClassicCarraway
xxvaderxx wrote: ph34r wrote:xxvaderxx wrote:I will need to figure out a way to differentiate units from different codexes/chapters. I am thinking either casting a sort "holster for the base" and color it with the chapter color or a marker with the chapter symbol. Ideally i lean towards the holster, but its a bit more work. Im thinking Playing my wolves ultras with an allied detachment of white scars, which will essentially be a captain with a bike squad and an assault squad.
What other ideas do you guys have to differentiate your forces?.
Paint the space wolves space wolf colors and use the space wolf book, and then paint your white scars white.
Yeah... no, will do that the second GW prints a codex for every edition, till then the color the power armor is painted its irrelevant to me, ill only play current edition dexes, that the whole reason i picked marines.
So what have you been doing for the last year, since you ONLY play with current edition dexes and the only Space Marine codex out is Dark Angels? Playing Space Wolves as Dark Angels is wrong on so many levels....
Personally, I'm not overly impressed with what I'm seeing for the new codex so far (granted, its all rumors, and I'm sure the devil will be in the details). I have to wonder if the 5th edition SW codex won't be better than the upcoming C: SM codex.
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Post by: xxvaderxx
 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Personally, I'm not overly impressed with what I'm seeing for the new codex so far (granted, its all rumors, and I'm sure the devil will be in the details). I have to wonder if the 5th edition SW codex won't be better than the upcoming C: SM codex.
Not been playing for a while, thou principle still stands, i will only consider the colors painted on a model as an artistic choice and nothing else, until such a time all codexes have current edition versions. Till then, a marine is a marine and as long as you respect WYSIWYG, the colors are an anecdotal choice to me, fluff related an nothing else.
 Lansirill wrote:
I really like your idea of casting holsters for the bases, but the problem with that is you end up making the base too big.
I dont really think that is a problem, it would increase the diameter about 2 millimiters tops and they would be visual aids only. The other option is to magnetize another base under the hollow GW base and collor those, same size, just a little bit taller.
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Post by: Polecat
I'm trying to think what cheese is there to be had with Land Speeder Storm. I'm of course talking about spamming 5-man scouts and taking LSS as their DT.
Equipping them with assault cannon and outflanking them gives you 24 str6 rending shots delivered to rear armor or units behind cover. It would only be BS3 though, maybe rerolling 1's.
Of course you could take them as Salamander and give them TL Heavy Flamer or give them MM and have Vulkan TL them.
Maybe keep the scouts embarked as you outflank them have the scouts fire their bolters. That would give you 60 str4 rapid fire shots on top of what ever else LSS is firing.
This setup would cost about 6 x 125 points if the rumours are true and LSS keeps its points cost.
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Post by: Salkovich
Polecat wrote:I'm trying to think what cheese is there to be had with Land Speeder Storm. I'm of course talking about spamming 5-man scouts and taking LSS as their DT.
Equipping them with assault cannon and outflanking them gives you 24 str6 rending shots delivered to rear armor or units behind cover. It would only be BS3 though, maybe rerolling 1's.
Of course you could take them as Salamander and give them TL Heavy Flamer or give them MM and have Vulkan TL them.
Maybe keep the scouts embarked as you outflank them have the scouts fire their bolters. That would give you 60 str4 rapid fire shots on top of what ever else LSS is firing.
This setup would cost about 6 x 125 points if the rumours are true and LSS keeps its points cost.
Space Marine version of DE Venom Spam. Sounds nasty: high risk, high reward.
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Post by: Kingsley
My one big hope for this release is that you can take Ultramarines characters in other Chapters. My Marines are Iron Hands successors in models (and fluff), but I decided they were more Codex-compliant than their parent Chapter and used Codex: Space Marines instead of Codex: Space Wolves for them in 5th edition.
As a result, I have converted models for Tigurius, Cassius, Sicarius, and Telion and have parts on the way for Marneus Calgar too. If it comes down to a choice between Iron Hands Chapter Tactics and Ultramarines characters, I'm not sure which one I will pick-- so I'm hoping I'll be able to have both!
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Post by: Lobokai
 Kingsley wrote:My one big hope for this release is that you can take Ultramarines characters in other Chapters. My Marines are Iron Hands successors in models (and fluff), but I decided they were more Codex-compliant than their parent Chapter and used Codex: Space Marines instead of Codex: Space Wolves for them in 5th edition.
As a result, I have converted models for Tigurius, Cassius, Sicarius, and Telion and have parts on the way for Marneus Calgar too. If it comes down to a choice between Iron Hands Chapter Tactics and Ultramarines characters, I'm not sure which one I will pick-- so I'm hoping I'll be able to have both!
Sounds like you can't. It seems that Special Characters will be locked into like Doctrine/Chapter only. But, it looks like you can ally two different Chapter together. Guess we'll have to wait and see for sure.
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Post by: xruslanx
Pyriel- wrote:xruslanx wrote:tactical squads are bad as they are though. Too expensive, no survivability and lacklustre firepower. Now we know that two of these have been addressed, or even all three if you're an iron hands player.
Yep. Might be better of him to keep to his pokemon.
i dont understand what you mean, could you elaborate?
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Post by: Godless-Mimicry
xruslanx wrote: Pyriel- wrote:xruslanx wrote:tactical squads are bad as they are though. Too expensive, no survivability and lacklustre firepower. Now we know that two of these have been addressed, or even all three if you're an iron hands player.
Yep. Might be better of him to keep to his pokemon.
i dont understand what you mean, could you elaborate?
Neither do I.
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Post by: Exergy
Lobukia wrote: Kingsley wrote:My one big hope for this release is that you can take Ultramarines characters in other Chapters. My Marines are Iron Hands successors in models (and fluff), but I decided they were more Codex-compliant than their parent Chapter and used Codex: Space Marines instead of Codex: Space Wolves for them in 5th edition.
As a result, I have converted models for Tigurius, Cassius, Sicarius, and Telion and have parts on the way for Marneus Calgar too. If it comes down to a choice between Iron Hands Chapter Tactics and Ultramarines characters, I'm not sure which one I will pick-- so I'm hoping I'll be able to have both!
Sounds like you can't. It seems that Special Characters will be locked into like Doctrine/Chapter only. But, it looks like you can ally two different Chapter together. Guess we'll have to wait and see for sure.
I think it is entirely possible that some of the ultra characters are locked in while others are not
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Post by: Godless-Mimicry
Exergy wrote: Lobukia wrote: Kingsley wrote:My one big hope for this release is that you can take Ultramarines characters in other Chapters. My Marines are Iron Hands successors in models (and fluff), but I decided they were more Codex-compliant than their parent Chapter and used Codex: Space Marines instead of Codex: Space Wolves for them in 5th edition.
As a result, I have converted models for Tigurius, Cassius, Sicarius, and Telion and have parts on the way for Marneus Calgar too. If it comes down to a choice between Iron Hands Chapter Tactics and Ultramarines characters, I'm not sure which one I will pick-- so I'm hoping I'll be able to have both!
Sounds like you can't. It seems that Special Characters will be locked into like Doctrine/Chapter only. But, it looks like you can ally two different Chapter together. Guess we'll have to wait and see for sure.
I think it is entirely possible that some of the ultra characters are locked in while others are not
Rumours say otherwise.
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Post by: SoloFalcon1138
Kirasu wrote:So Space Marines now get 3 HQ, 3-8 troops and 4 fast attack, elite and heavy support?
Doesn't feel like how Allies were supposed to work but I guess it sells more space marines.
How is this different than allied Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, or Black Templars? It's not.
Look, the Ultra/Space Marines codex is always a showcase for new toys of the Imperium. Thunderfire? Dark Angels haven't cried. Redeemer? Black Templars didn't care. And where is the Space Wolves' Master of the Forge? Generic doesn't have to mean crap, it means it can cover the gamut of what they can do.
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Post by: MasterSlowPoke
UltraPrime wrote:Paint them in their Chapter colours. Wild idea, I know. Not a fan of FotM players.
How is is FotM if they're using their current armies?
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Post by: tvih
UltraPrime wrote:Paint them in their Chapter colours. Wild idea, I know. Not a fan of FotM players.
Personally I have actually 3 Calgars (well, obviously the duplicate terminator one is kinda pointless, but never mind) and 7 honour guard models. They're my only UM models. Certainly not gonna paint up an entire Ultramarine army just for when I want to take Calgar+ HG for an outing once in a blue moon
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Post by: VoidAngel
xxvaderxx wrote: ph34r wrote:xxvaderxx wrote:I will need to figure out a way to differentiate units from different codexes/chapters. I am thinking either casting a sort "holster for the base" and color it with the chapter color or a marker with the chapter symbol. Ideally i lean towards the holster, but its a bit more work. Im thinking Playing my wolves ultras with an allied detachment of white scars, which will essentially be a captain with a bike squad and an assault squad.
What other ideas do you guys have to differentiate your forces?.
Paint the space wolves space wolf colors and use the space wolf book, and then paint your white scars white.
Yeah... no, will do that the second GW prints a codex for every edition, till then the color the power armor is painted its irrelevant to me, ill only play current edition dexes, that the whole reason i picked marines.
Don't play chapter paint schemes or names, just use the rules you like.
"What are those?"
"Void Angels"
"What...Chapter is that?"
"They use Blood Angels rules."
"Oh, OK."
Done.
For "other rules" units in an army - magnets in the base, chapter-colored markers on top (painted, smaller magnets, or magnetic materials).
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Post by: ductvader
Many of us don't even have a freakin' clue which chapter is which.
What ruleset you using for your marines?
Cool...got it.
Ravenwingguardangels?
I don't freakin' care just like you don't care if I am a Naga Swarm or a Behemoth.
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Post by: wtwlf123
My army is painted up as Imperial Fists, but that's not going to stop me from using the Ultramarine's Tactical Doctrine every time that Lysander wants a breather.
So long as the army represented on the field is a legal list, who cares what color it is? If the whole thing was primed black instead of being fully painted, that's somehow better all the sudden?
I also have a counts-as Vulkan model, and when I field him, I'll be using Salamander rules. Even though my army is yellow. Big whoop.
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Post by: Exergy
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: Kirasu wrote:So Space Marines now get 3 HQ, 3-8 troops and 4 fast attack, elite and heavy support?
Doesn't feel like how Allies were supposed to work but I guess it sells more space marines.
How is this different than allied Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, or Black Templars? It's not.
Look, the Ultra/Space Marines codex is always a showcase for new toys of the Imperium. Thunderfire? Dark Angels haven't cried. Redeemer? Black Templars didn't care. And where is the Space Wolves' Master of the Forge? Generic doesn't have to mean crap, it means it can cover the gamut of what they can do.
I think we might be better with a 2-6 0-2 0-2 0-2 0-2 system per 1500 points. 4 fast attack or 4 HS is a lot.
Then again you can take take 8 night scythes, my point is invalid
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Post by: Theophony
Just occurred to me with these rumors out and gencon going on if the GW guys are getting bombarded with questions and having to deny the future release of the codex, or if they have crawled Under the vendor table to hide
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Post by: Kangodo
VoidAngel wrote:Don't play chapter paint schemes or names, just use the rules you like.
"What are those?"
"Void Angels"
"What...Chapter is that?"
"They use Blood Angels rules."
"Oh, OK."
Done.
Or do a "Forge the Narrative", it's what I am going to do.
I am hoping that Blood Raven will be confirmed to be a Raven Guard-successor or else I will make up my own RG-successor chapter to use my Blood Angels.
Blood Angels: Eagles with a blood drop.
Blood Raven: Raven with a blood drop.
Nobody will ever notice the difference!
UltraPrime wrote:Paint them in their Chapter colours. Wild idea, I know. Not a fan of FotM players.
FotM-players are people who take the 'flavour of the month'.
This codex-switching is not because they want the strongest army, it's mostly because they like a change or because their current codex sucks/doesn't fit their playstyle.
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Post by: SickSix
Kangodo wrote:
Or do a "Forge the Narrative", it's what I am going to do.
I am hoping that Blood Raven will be confirmed to be a Raven Guard-successor or else I will make up my own RG-successor chapter to use my Blood Angels.
Blood Angels: Eagles with a blood drop.
Blood Raven: Raven with a blood drop.
Nobody will ever notice the difference!
RG successors? Man that is a new one. Where did that come from? I'm pretty sure everything I have ever read hints at Thousand Sons..... 
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Post by: Lansirill
Kangodo wrote:
UltraPrime wrote:Paint them in their Chapter colours. Wild idea, I know. Not a fan of FotM players.
FotM-players are people who take the 'flavour of the month'.
This codex-switching is not because they want the strongest army, it's mostly because they like a change or because their current codex sucks/doesn't fit their playstyle.
Nonsense. If you want a break, you can spend a few hundred dollars to buy a whole new army, dozens of hours to get it painted to a mediocre tabletop standard, and then by the time you're done with that you'll have had a long enough break from your original army that you're ready to play it again. Problem solved.
Of course maybe people chose Space Marines for their army because it allows a lot of flexibility and choice since GW prints rules for 6 flavors of Space Marines (5 now assuming that BT are being rolled into C: SM, and I'm excluding Grey Knights since they are equipped differently from everything else so it's hard to keep the equipment on the things WYSIWYG.) I know that's one of the main reasons *I* decided to go heavy into Space Marines. I guess you could say I chose SM because they make it the easiest to go FotM, but meh? By the time I buy something, get it painted, and get a game something else is the FotM.
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Post by: Mr.Omega
 wtwlf123 wrote:My army is painted up as Imperial Fists, but that's not going to stop me from using the Ultramarine's Tactical Doctrine every time that Lysander wants a breather.
So long as the army represented on the field is a legal list, who cares what color it is? If the whole thing was primed black instead of being fully painted, that's somehow better all the sudden?
I also have a counts-as Vulkan model, and when I field him, I'll be using Salamander rules. Even though my army is yellow. Big whoop.
I started collecting my marine army long before I started playing so when I learned the quirks of playing C: SM in mid 5th I kinda regretted making a homebrew. The need to proxy characters (which I never have with C: SM) to unlock new play styles and the amazingly crap generic HQ's, even back when Termie Chaplains were decent, it just felt like a punishment.
I switched to proxying as BT and got a lot of fun out of them until 6th killed them. I then tried Wolves for a bit but not nearly as much as I used to play BT. Since January I've been using Dark Angels.
I really like the sound of the new Chapter Tactics rule, and since my Chapter's first founding fathers is ambiguous I can practically do any of them easily without raising eyebrows.
Seriously, if Crudhead makes Chapter Masters as good as they should be I will be ecstatic.
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Post by: Godless-Mimicry
 Mr.Omega wrote:Seriously, if Crudhead makes Chapter Masters as good as they should be I will be ecstatic.
From what we've heard so far they got +1W and +1A.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
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Post by: OverwatchCNC
 Theophony wrote:Just occurred to me with these rumors out and gencon going on if the GW guys are getting bombarded with questions and having to deny the future release of the codex, or if they have crawled Under the vendor table to hide
I am pretty sure GW does not go to other Cons. FW and BL do but I am 99% sure GW proper does not.
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Post by: Matt.Kingsley
GW went to GenCon this year, you can see their booth in some photos on the BL facebook page. Unless, suddenly, BL and FW are able to take citadel paints and products to GenCon as well as their own.
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Post by: Ironwill13791
They probably denied any comments (GW), but with the proximity to release (3 weeks?) they might shock people.....maybe.
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Post by: OverwatchCNC
 Matt.Kingsley wrote:GW went to GenCon this year, you can see their booth in some photos on the BL facebook page. Unless, suddenly, BL and FW are able to take citadel paints and products to GenCon as well as their own.
Huh . I would imagine it was quite awkward for them all weekend!
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Post by: ClockworkZion
No problem. I felt we needed a good, strong roll-up of this stuff with everything gathered together nice and cleanly so there it is.
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Post by: Thaylen
One question, do captains still have the ability to take artificer armor. It's the only way my bikes can stand up to helldrakes.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
 Thaylen wrote:One question, do captains still have the ability to take artificer armor. It's the only way my bikes can stand up to helldrakes.
40k radio said their wargear options didn't really change, so it is possible that yes, he still can.
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Post by: davou
ClockworkZion wrote:
No problem. I felt we needed a good, strong roll-up of this stuff with everything gathered together nice and cleanly so there it is.
From your blog
Tactical Squads are similiar to the DA version, and the Marines now cost 2 points less each.
Does that mean, we can take a special weapon at 5?
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Post by: ClockworkZion
davou wrote:ClockworkZion wrote:
No problem. I felt we needed a good, strong roll-up of this stuff with everything gathered together nice and cleanly so there it is.
From your blog
Tactical Squads are similiar to the DA version, and the Marines now cost 2 points less each.
Does that mean, we can take a special weapon at 5?
Very good question. 40k radio only said that the new options were basically the same as the DA ones, so I'd assume so, but I'll ask that when they start answering questions again to confirm.
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Post by: Matt.Kingsley
I just realised, the new tactical box almost has an entire suit of corvus armour, it's only missing the backpack!
I now almost definitely have to start a Crimson Fists army next, I've been planning to make one for a while!
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Post by: mwnciboo
Excellent - Iron Hands Limited Edition one for me!
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Post by: Disarray
Kangodo wrote:
Or do a "Forge the Narrative", it's what I am going to do.
I am hoping that Blood Raven will be confirmed to be a Raven Guard-successor or else I will make up my own RG-successor chapter to use my Blood Angels.
Blood Angels: Eagles with a blood drop.
Blood Raven: Raven with a blood drop.
Nobody will ever notice the difference!
Pretty sure in the DoW games they said Blood Ravens have some super secret new "lost" Primarch
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Post by: Fayric
 SickSix wrote:Kangodo wrote:
Or do a "Forge the Narrative", it's what I am going to do.
I am hoping that Blood Raven will be confirmed to be a Raven Guard-successor or else I will make up my own RG-successor chapter to use my Blood Angels.
Blood Angels: Eagles with a blood drop.
Blood Raven: Raven with a blood drop.
Nobody will ever notice the difference!
RG successors? Man that is a new one. Where did that come from? I'm pretty sure everything I have ever read hints at Thousand Sons.....
Agree with the Thousand Sons relation. And if it's actually so, its a really great piece of fluff among the tide of unimaginative Ultra successors.
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Post by: Souleater
I plan on painting my Marines as Death Watch. Like many other players I have accumulated a fairly random bunch of Marine over the years despite not playing Marines!
And my old rtb01 Marines were (are) black, anyway.
If I use a counts-as Tigrius, say, his shoulder will be the correct colour for his chapter while the rest of his armour matches the theme of the army.
My only concern from these rumours is that of internal allying. It sounds as if SM are getting sub-2000 point double FOCing.
I wish the ally rukes had stayed in Apoc.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
 Souleater wrote:I plan on painting my Marines as Death Watch. Like many other players I have accumulated a fairly random bunch of Marine over the years despite not playing Marines!
And my old rtb01 Marines were (are) black, anyway.
If I use a counts-as Tigrius, say, his shoulder will be the correct colour for his chapter while the rest of his armour matches the theme of the army.
My only concern from these rumours is that of internal allying. It sounds as if SM are getting sub-2000 point double FOCing.
I wish the ally rukes had stayed in Apoc.
Allies can't take as many units in slots as double FOC can. Allies only get one of each with two troop choices, while double Foc gets a whole new, seperate FOC to use.
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Post by: Polecat
So Tigurius gets to reroll when choosing his 3 powers? He seems to be the only farily reliable way to get Gate of Infinity. He has 33% chance on the first roll, 40% chance on the 2nd roll and 50% chance on his 3rd roll.
I was thinking Tigurius Gating a unit of 6 Devastator Centurions forward 24". That way they can get in range with their Grav cannons. That would be 30 Grav Cannon shots up to 24". Also if Tigurius manages to get GoI on his 1st or 2nd roll, then he could go for Divination primaris power and twin-link the Centurions.
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Post by: Mr.Church13
If tigirius gets all that crap, I'm picking my powers from now on. The Wardian cinematics in 6th are already terrible and Eldar and tzeench get nothing compared to this spank-fest of a character.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Polecat wrote:So Tigurius gets to reroll when choosing his 3 powers? He seems to be the only farily reliable way to get Gate of Infinity. He has 33% chance on the first roll, 40% chance on the 2nd roll and 50% chance on his 3rd roll.
I was thinking Tigurius Gating a unit of 6 Devastator Centurions forward 24". That way they can get in range with their Grav cannons. That would be 30 Grav Cannon shots up to 24". Also if Tigurius manages to get GoI on his 1st or 2nd roll, then he could go for Divination primaris power and twin-link the Centurions.
That is a lot of points. 6 Dev Centurions costs 360 points base (based on the 60 points per model rumor), plus 165 for Tigirus, puts you at 525 points before you get Grav Cannons. Automatically Appended Next Post: Mr.Church13 wrote:If tigirius gets all that crap, I'm picking my powers from now on. The Wardian cinematics in 6th are already terrible and Eldar and tzeench get nothing compared to this spank-fest of a character.
As rumors stand right now, he does get all that crap. He's also the most powerful sanctioned psyker in the entire Imperium (mentally, we're not talking micro- MC Metiphiston style punching here, we're talking mind bullets). Tigurius is the only named psyker I can think of who has no Invul save without using powers. Heck, he only wears standard Power Armor. This makes him an extreme glass cannon. Lots of power, but no staying force.
Also I'm willing to bet his re-rolls for choosing powers only work on whatever charts he's rolling on, so I doubt he'll get to choose to roll on one chart to get a power and then roll on another chart so he can secure a different one.
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Post by: Eldercaveman
You named another named psyker in your post that doesn't have an invunerable save.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
ClockworkZion wrote: Tigurius is the only named psyker I can think of who has no Invul save without using powers.
Mephiston.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
ClockworkZion wrote:
Also I'm willing to bet his re-rolls for choosing powers only work on whatever charts he's rolling on, so I doubt he'll get to choose to roll on one chart to get a power and then roll on another chart so he can secure a different one.
Powers are rolled on a time, so no, I don't think he'll be able to go back and re-roll powers he's already chosen to keep, if that's what you're saying.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Eldercaveman wrote:You named another named psyker in your post that doesn't have an invunerable save.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:ClockworkZion wrote: Tigurius is the only named psyker I can think of who has no Invul save without using powers.
Mephiston.
Fair enough. I forgot about him. 'Phiston is still tougher than Tigirus though. One has the psychic might, the other has a whole lotta brawn.
lord_blackfang wrote:ClockworkZion wrote:
Also I'm willing to bet his re-rolls for choosing powers only work on whatever charts he's rolling on, so I doubt he'll get to choose to roll on one chart to get a power and then roll on another chart so he can secure a different one.
Powers are rolled on a time, so no, I don't think he'll be able to go back and re-roll powers he's already chosen to keep, if that's what you're saying.
I was actually referring to something I was sure I read where the idea of rolling on one chart, keeping one of those powers (from Divination) and then using your re-rolls on a different chart was proposed. I'm going to bet you can't do that.
Then again I may have not been fully awake at that time, so take that as you will.
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Post by: Ironwill13791
ClockworkZion wrote: Tigurius is the only named psyker I can think of who has no Invul save without using powers.
Ezekiel, Grand Master of the Librarians.
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Post by: SoloFalcon1138
He does not have an invulnerable save.
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Post by: DogofWar1
I'm wondering if Pedro's Hold the Line (sternguard scoring) rule will work across detachments. If so, I would love to do something like take Tigurius as the head HQ, and ally him with Pedro, then taking Sternguard in the UM FOC to get the rerolls to 1s while they are still scoring.
I'd have to take a 3rd Tac squad (ew...), but I guess there's some use for dual las-plas and a TL-Assault Cannon razorback.
Alternatively, if they'd give us a razorback variant with some anti-air........I'm just sayin'.
Odds are we probably can't get scoring sternguard across detachments, but hey, I can hope, right?
I'm still sore that we can't take Sternguard as troops though, and that GW seems dead set against giving IF sternguard any kind of rerolling...lame...
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Post by: cadbren
Front page is still missing this guy:
1
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Post by: magodedisco
Polecat wrote:So Tigurius gets to reroll when choosing his 3 powers? He seems to be the only farily reliable way to get Gate of Infinity. He has 33% chance on the first roll, 40% chance on the 2nd roll and 50% chance on his 3rd roll.
I was thinking Tigurius Gating a unit of 6 Devastator Centurions forward 24". That way they can get in range with their Grav cannons. That would be 30 Grav Cannon shots up to 24". Also if Tigurius manages to get GoI on his 1st or 2nd roll, then he could go for Divination primaris power and twin-link the Centurions.
Tigirius with 6 Grav Cannon Centurions does seem pretty raw, but I'd focus on protecting them instead of gating them around, mostly against armies that can get through their invul save. You can force Invisibility if the opposing army isn't rocking much ignores cover. Heck, even the FNP, IWND Biomancy power brings a lot to the table. However, I feel like rolling on Divination brings the most to the unit. Possibly ignoring cover, firing overwatch at full BS, getting that invul save the unit sorely needs, making your shooting targets reroll saving throws, or just twin-linking those chubby bastards are all strong possibilities. Use the reroll to avoid the other two derpalicious powers and call it a day.
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Post by: SoloFalcon1138
DogofWar1 wrote:I'm wondering if Pedro's Hold the Line (sternguard scoring) rule will work across detachments. If so, I would love to do something like take Tigurius as the head HQ, and ally him with Pedro, then taking Sternguard in the UM FOC to get the rerolls to 1s while they are still scoring.
I'd have to take a 3rd Tac squad ( ew...), but I guess there's some use for dual las- plas and a TL-Assault Cannon razorback.
Alternatively, if they'd give us a razorback variant with some anti-air........I'm just sayin'.
Odds are we probably can't get scoring sternguard across detachments, but hey, I can hope, right?
I'm still sore that we can't take Sternguard as troops though, and that GW seems dead set against giving IF sternguard any kind of rerolling...lame...
Typically, FOC modifiers apply to the primary detachment only, like Belial and Sammael. Anyway, how do you plan on using a C: SM list allied to a C: SM list?
From what I am hoping and interpreting from the rumors, it looks as if the new codex is designed to make us commit to a chapter and not to game the system to get all the cool abilities. In otherwords, it would require us to mke decisions.
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Post by: DogofWar1
SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Typically, FOC modifiers apply to the primary detachment only, like Belial and Sammael. Anyway, how do you plan on using a C: SM list allied to a C: SM list?
From what I am hoping and interpreting from the rumors, it looks as if the new codex is designed to make us commit to a chapter and not to game the system to get all the cool abilities. In otherwords, it would require us to mke decisions.
From the rumor roundup at: http://www.talkwargaming.com/2013/08/codex-space-marines-rumor-roll-up-part.html#ixzz2cEj5MHVZ
Characters from chapters can only be chosen by those specific chapters. For example: an army with the Chapter Tactics (Imperial Fists) can not take Forge Father Vulcan He'stan as part of the main detachment. Characters can still be shared through the use of allying one chapter to another, however.
Makes it sound like we can ally two chapters, primary and secondary detachment style.
And while FOC modifiers generally apply to only the primary detachment, the rules tend to mention "primary detachment" in the actual written rules, which would usually mean that if no mention of primary detachment is made then it can apply to any part of the army, primary or secondary attachment.
I'm fairly certain they won't make that oversight, but hey, I can hope, right?
Regardless, I just want Tigurius and Pedro together, so that I can roll 10 angry scoring sternguard out of a stormraven with Tigur giving them relentless (among other bonuses).
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Post by: ClockworkZion
SoloFalcon1138 wrote:DogofWar1 wrote:I'm wondering if Pedro's Hold the Line (sternguard scoring) rule will work across detachments. If so, I would love to do something like take Tigurius as the head HQ, and ally him with Pedro, then taking Sternguard in the UM FOC to get the rerolls to 1s while they are still scoring.
I'd have to take a 3rd Tac squad ( ew...), but I guess there's some use for dual las- plas and a TL-Assault Cannon razorback.
Alternatively, if they'd give us a razorback variant with some anti-air........I'm just sayin'.
Odds are we probably can't get scoring sternguard across detachments, but hey, I can hope, right?
I'm still sore that we can't take Sternguard as troops though, and that GW seems dead set against giving IF sternguard any kind of rerolling...lame...
Typically, FOC modifiers apply to the primary detachment only, like Belial and Sammael. Anyway, how do you plan on using a C: SM list allied to a C: SM list?
From what I am hoping and interpreting from the rumors, it looks as if the new codex is designed to make us commit to a chapter and not to game the system to get all the cool abilities. In otherwords, it would require us to mke decisions.
Basically. But you could take a second chapter as allies it seems, but that creates new restrictions too. Like not sharing transports between the chapters.
From the original info:
Q: Can you mix your army. Like have some units be ultra marines and others be salamanders?
A: Yes. They're allowed to ally out of the same codex.
Q: When you say you can ally out of the same codex, is that through the actual ally rules, or that you can mix two armies and their Chapter tactics?
A: You have to ally the two detachments.
So while there are now more restrictions, they aren't preventing you from using the entire book, just limiting the combinations a bit. It's a method I rather like.
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Post by: ausYenLoWang
DogofWar1 wrote:I'm wondering if Pedro's Hold the Line (sternguard scoring) rule will work across detachments. If so, I would love to do something like take Tigurius as the head HQ, and ally him with Pedro, then taking Sternguard in the UM FOC to get the rerolls to 1s while they are still scoring.
I'd have to take a 3rd Tac squad ( ew...), but I guess there's some use for dual las- plas and a TL-Assault Cannon razorback.
Alternatively, if they'd give us a razorback variant with some anti-air........I'm just sayin'.
Odds are we probably can't get scoring sternguard across detachments, but hey, I can hope, right?
I'm still sore that we can't take Sternguard as troops though, and that GW seems dead set against giving IF sternguard any kind of rerolling...lame...
razorback with AA your getting 2 new tanks to do that.......
and remember your allied marines IF you get that, will go into an allies FOC not a full second chart
i would doubt that making the marines different "chapters" will allow cross allied detacments in one codex except for BT as they have their own spot on the allies chart. i mean, that would give the marines just another thing that the csm chapters missed out on... again... we need to buy 50$ books for that privelage
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Post by: Vaerros
My take(as a player planning his first [Raven Guard] SM army):
- Shrike seems to only have gotten slightly worse. I would've liked to have seen a point decrease for him.
- Assault marines seem to be a bit better, taking the very slight point decrease and the various possible tweaks via Chapter Tactics into consideration. Would've been nice to have 5-point flamers though :p
- I'll be sad if Telion ends up being constrained to Ultramarine/successor players only.
Otherwise, a number of things to like.
It's not clear to me what happens to old 'chapter tactics' system of having an HQ replace combat tactics. Do HQ-provided special rules(like Shrike's fleet) now live alongside combat tactics instead of replacing it?
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Post by: Crazyterran
magodedisco wrote:Polecat wrote:So Tigurius gets to reroll when choosing his 3 powers? He seems to be the only farily reliable way to get Gate of Infinity. He has 33% chance on the first roll, 40% chance on the 2nd roll and 50% chance on his 3rd roll.
I was thinking Tigurius Gating a unit of 6 Devastator Centurions forward 24". That way they can get in range with their Grav cannons. That would be 30 Grav Cannon shots up to 24". Also if Tigurius manages to get GoI on his 1st or 2nd roll, then he could go for Divination primaris power and twin-link the Centurions.
Tigirius with 6 Grav Cannon Centurions does seem pretty raw, but I'd focus on protecting them instead of gating them around, mostly against armies that can get through their invul save. You can force Invisibility if the opposing army isn't rocking much ignores cover. Heck, even the FNP, IWND Biomancy power brings a lot to the table. However, I feel like rolling on Divination brings the most to the unit. Possibly ignoring cover, firing overwatch at full BS, getting that invul save the unit sorely needs, making your shooting targets reroll saving throws, or just twin-linking those chubby bastards are all strong possibilities. Use the reroll to avoid the other two derpalicious powers and call it a day.
Except that Centurion's can't fire overwatch since they are Slow and Purposeful.
Though, GoI, Precog, Perfect Timing grav-cannon centurions sounds pretty scary.
To bad Grav-cannons are garbage for TAC lists. :(
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Post by: ClockworkZion
 Vaerros wrote:My take(as a player planning his first [Raven Guard] SM army):
- Shrike seems to only have gotten slightly worse. I would've liked to have seen a point decrease for him.
- Assault marines seem to be a bit better, taking the very slight point decrease and the various possible tweaks via Chapter Tactics into consideration. Would've been nice to have 5-point flamers though :p
- I'll be sad if Telion ends up being constrained to Ultramarine/successor players only.
Otherwise, a number of things to like.
It's not clear to me what happens to old 'chapter tactics' system of having an HQ replace combat tactics. Do HQ-provided special rules(like Shrike's fleet) now live alongside combat tactics instead of replacing it?
Some of the characters who swapped out combat tactics for a different rule instead offer a new rule that works in addition to the Combat Tactic. Lysander has a re-roll leadership bubble for example and Vulkan twin-links Meltas.
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Post by: Fayric
Well, it sounds kind of strange if Imperial fist could not ally with Salamanders, but could have Treacherous Eldar running about in their deployment/comfort zone.
On the other hand, that argument work for every army that has different fluff fractions.
Guess Im not competetive enough to care if its double FOC or allies or whathaveyou.
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Post by: happygolucky
One Question, but will the SM Codex put the Storm Talon and SR units into the Codex? or will they leave them out so you have to buy the Death from the sky supplement in order to use them?
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Post by: Eldercaveman
 happygolucky wrote:One Question, but will the SM Codex put the Storm Talon and SR units into the Codex? or will they leave them out so you have to buy the Death from the sky supplement in order to use them?
According to the rumour round up further up the page, they are both in the codex. And unchanged from the death from the skies version.
Automatically Appended Next Post: happygolucky wrote:One Question, but will the SM Codex put the Storm Talon and SR units into the Codex? or will they leave them out so you have to buy the Death from the sky supplement in order to use them?
According to the rumour round up further up the page, they are both in the codex. And unchanged from the death from the skies version.
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Post by: happygolucky
Eldercaveman wrote: happygolucky wrote:One Question, but will the SM Codex put the Storm Talon and SR units into the Codex? or will they leave them out so you have to buy the Death from the sky supplement in order to use them?
According to the rumour round up further up the page, they are both in the codex. And unchanged from the death from the skies version.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
happygolucky wrote:One Question, but will the SM Codex put the Storm Talon and SR units into the Codex? or will they leave them out so you have to buy the Death from the sky supplement in order to use them?
According to the rumour round up further up the page, they are both in the codex. And unchanged from the death from the skies version.
Ok thanks
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Post by: lord_blackfang
ClockworkZion wrote:
I was actually referring to something I was sure I read where the idea of rolling on one chart, keeping one of those powers (from Divination) and then using your re-rolls on a different chart was proposed. I'm going to bet you can't do that.
EDIT: I think I see what you mean now and I agree, he won't do that, because you roll powers one at a time, not all at once.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
 lord_blackfang wrote:ClockworkZion wrote:
I was actually referring to something I was sure I read where the idea of rolling on one chart, keeping one of those powers (from Divination) and then using your re-rolls on a different chart was proposed. I'm going to bet you can't do that.
EDIT: I think I see what you mean now and I agree, he won't do that, because you roll powers one at a time, not all at once.
Sad part is I'm not sure where I read the original comment that made me think about the situation. Joy of posting at before dawn when you're not quite awake I guess.
I kind of feel bad for the 40k Radio guys come Monday. A lot of people waiting to ask questions. I know I'm sitting on a list of things personally.
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Post by: magodedisco
Crazyterran wrote:magodedisco wrote:Polecat wrote:So Tigurius gets to reroll when choosing his 3 powers? He seems to be the only farily reliable way to get Gate of Infinity. He has 33% chance on the first roll, 40% chance on the 2nd roll and 50% chance on his 3rd roll.
I was thinking Tigurius Gating a unit of 6 Devastator Centurions forward 24". That way they can get in range with their Grav cannons. That would be 30 Grav Cannon shots up to 24". Also if Tigurius manages to get GoI on his 1st or 2nd roll, then he could go for Divination primaris power and twin-link the Centurions.
Tigirius with 6 Grav Cannon Centurions does seem pretty raw, but I'd focus on protecting them instead of gating them around, mostly against armies that can get through their invul save. You can force Invisibility if the opposing army isn't rocking much ignores cover. Heck, even the FNP, IWND Biomancy power brings a lot to the table. However, I feel like rolling on Divination brings the most to the unit. Possibly ignoring cover, firing overwatch at full BS, getting that invul save the unit sorely needs, making your shooting targets reroll saving throws, or just twin-linking those chubby bastards are all strong possibilities. Use the reroll to avoid the other two derpalicious powers and call it a day.
Except that Centurion's can't fire overwatch since they are Slow and Purposeful.
Though, GoI, Precog, Perfect Timing grav-cannon centurions sounds pretty scary.
To bad Grav-cannons are garbage for TAC lists. :(
Aw, didn't realize SnP can't overwatch. What a bummer.
Regarding Grav Cannons in TAC lists, the gun still has some mileage against a variety of targets- any variety of Marine, 2+/3+ MCs (obviously), mid to heavy vehicles (Land Raiders, Wave Serpents!!!), Terminators, Warp Spiders, Broadsides, Crisis Suits, Eldar Jetbikes, etc. I guess I'm trying to say it has viable targets against basically any list and the things that it can't handle- GEQ and Xenos troops, get taken out easily by a variety of cheap weapons (...bolters, especially if UM Tactical Doctrine is in use). The Grav Amp allowing wound rerolls ensures the squad will never be outright useless against a given list.
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Post by: Eldercaveman
I'll take battle focus while we are at it.
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Post by: MajorWesJanson
DogofWar1 wrote:I'm still sore that we can't take Sternguard as troops though, and that GW seems dead set against giving IF sternguard any kind of rerolling...lame...
Yes, because GW doesn't want you to have scoring Sternguard that also reroll 1s to shoot. You have to choose one or the other.
Vaerros wrote:My take(as a player planning his first [Raven Guard] SM army):
- Shrike seems to only have gotten slightly worse. I would've liked to have seen a point decrease for him.
- Assault marines seem to be a bit better, taking the very slight point decrease and the various possible tweaks via Chapter Tactics into consideration. Would've been nice to have 5-point flamers though :p
- I'll be sad if Telion ends up being constrained to Ultramarine/successor players only.
Otherwise, a number of things to like.
It's not clear to me what happens to old 'chapter tactics' system of having an HQ replace combat tactics. Do HQ-provided special rules(like Shrike's fleet) now live alongside combat tactics instead of replacing it?
You wouldn't get the Stealth bonus, but it wouldn't be hard to ally in a squad of scouts with Telion (who have chapter tactics UM, so may be able to choose the reroll 1s one) and a cheap HQ.
Shrike didn't get any weaker, except he can no longer infiltrate anything he wants, just jump pack units.
Combat Tactics seems to be gone. ATSKNF is overpowered, but removing combat tactics nerfs it just a bit.
HQ provided special rules are a bonus to chapter tactics. You can only take a SC with the same chapter tactics as you chose for the detachment, but you don't need a SC to get the chapter tactics.
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Post by: Halfpast_Yellow
Well, fleet assault units (Ultra) is much better than packs in both phases (Raven) for actually getting there. Unsure if HoW worth it, Stealth is ok.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Halfpast_Yellow wrote:Well, fleet assault units (Ultra) is much better than packs in both phases (Raven) for actually getting there. Unsure if HoW worth it, Stealth is ok.
I disagree. First off the Fleet on Assault Marines is almost exactly the same as being able to use the Jump Pack in the Assualt Phase as both let you re-roll your charges.
The Raven Guard get a 24" max charge range (12" move +12" max charge distance on a good roll). The UM Marines get a 12" move, and fleet charge or a 6" move and a re-rollable charge. It can still got 24" but the Raven Guard get a free hit on the way in adding to the number of wounds they can force on their targets. Really all the UM get is a re-rollable run roll, but I don't see why anyone would want that when they could have Stealth to keep their Assault Marines alive longer.
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Post by: Godless-Mimicry
ClockworkZion wrote:Halfpast_Yellow wrote:Well, fleet assault units (Ultra) is much better than packs in both phases (Raven) for actually getting there. Unsure if HoW worth it, Stealth is ok.
Fleet Assault is almost exactly the same as being able to use the Jump Pack in the Assualt Phase as both let you re-roll your charges.
Well to be fair, he did say for the purpose of actually getting to the assault, so was probably referring to the ability to re-roll your run with Fleet.
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Post by: rybackstun
Late to the party, but Double the cost for a Limited Edition Cover? WTF?
Good to see that BTs still keep some of their old flair. I'll be looking forward to seeing the book when it hits.
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Post by: Triszin
you'd be surprised how expensive a new cover would be. on books like these, especially at those small quantities. If they would've made 2k copies for each cover, it wouldve dropped the cost by about 30-40$
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Post by: ShatteredBlade
I just hope Drop Pods haven't changed.
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Post by: Ironwill13791
Exactly. I was correcting his statement that Tigurius is the only named psyker that does not have an invulnerable save w/o the use of powers.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thank you.
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Post by: wtwlf123
The rumors say their capacity is dropped from 12 to 10.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Yeah, I admit I forgot about all the Psykers I never see because they don't have Invulnerable Saves. Librarians in Terminator Armor is usually what I've seen, so I forgot about that.
Teach me for playing Sisters for so long. XD
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Post by: ShatteredBlade
Up or down in price is what I'm concerned about. I'm not..wait..12 to 10? Well I suppose that changes a few things...
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Post by: Ferrum_Sanguinis
 ShatteredBlade wrote:
Up or down in price is what I'm concerned about. I'm not..wait..12 to 10? Well I suppose that changes a few things...
It was only 12 cause Matt Ward wanted to see if he could get away with it (he did). On every codex since, its been 10. Deal with it.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: ShatteredBlade wrote:
Up or down in price is what I'm concerned about. I'm not..wait..12 to 10? Well I suppose that changes a few things...
It was only 12 cause Matt Ward wanted to see if he could get away with it (he did). On every codex since, its been 10. Deal with it.
Actually it was 12 to allow for carrying a unit of 5 Terminators and a character in Terminator armor.
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Post by: ace101
After seeing the rumors about chapter tactics, im concerned. I really want to have blood ravens tactics, yet they arent related to the first founding chapters (seeing as they are 1k sons loyalists). If the chapter tactics rumors are true, what tactics are we blood ravens fanboys supposed to choose?
Typed on XBox live.
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Post by: beigeknight
I don't think it's too much of a stretch for a Drop Pod to have capacity for a full squad plus HQ. I feel all SM codices should. But whatever.
And you should really let go of the Ward hate.
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Post by: MajorWesJanson
 ace101 wrote:After seeing the rumors about chapter tactics, im concerned. I really want to have blood ravens tactics, yet they arent related to the first founding chapters (seeing as they are 1k sons loyalists). If the chapter tactics rumors are true, what tactics are we blood ravens fanboys supposed to choose?
Typed on XBox live.
Drop Pods at 12 men was great as you could fit a full squad and a character, letting you combat squad when you drop. At the same time, though 10 means you have to make choices, and the model is clearly meant for 10.
Blood Ravens? No official founding chapter (unless they list one in the new codex) so pick what you want. I'd go with UM so you can run Tiggy and Telion.
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Post by: The Grumpy Eldar
God I hope that Pedro Kantor stays in there with somewhat the same rules or some extra tricks with Sternguard.
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Post by: magodedisco
 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:God I hope that Pedro Kantor stays in there with somewhat the same rules or some extra tricks with Sternguard.
I just hope he no longer gives mandatory Stubborn. It is so much worse than ATSKNF this edition that it's not even funny. Just ask Dark Angels...
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Post by: TechMarine1
I'll take fast shot since the marines will OBVIOUSLY get something so much better than that.
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Post by: tomjoad
Has there been any word on Thunderfire Cannons? I assume they'll go up a bit in points, but do we know how much? Will it have the same S and AP and rate of fire?
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Post by: Matt.Kingsley
According to the rumors I've heard, it's the exact same as it is now
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Post by: Ferrum_Sanguinis
tomjoad wrote:Has there been any word on Thunderfire Cannons? I assume they'll go up a bit in points, but do we know how much? Will it have the same S and AP and rate of fire?
Rumors say they're staying the same rules and points wise.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Instead of repeating my thoughts a dozen times all over the place I went with doing a single post on my thoughts on these rumors: http://www.talkwargaming.com/2013/08/codex-space-marine-rumors-closer-look.html
Plus if you haven't had a chance to see all the rumored rules so far, there they are!
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Post by: NickTheButcher
tomjoad wrote:Has there been any word on Thunderfire Cannons? I assume they'll go up a bit in points, but do we know how much? Will it have the same S and AP and rate of fire?
Regarding TFC's, I can't imagine them touching them at all (which fits the rumor as well. After being tabled all of 5th edition, I'm hoping it gets to stay awesome.
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Post by: ductvader
ClockworkZion wrote:Halfpast_Yellow wrote:Well, fleet assault units (Ultra) is much better than packs in both phases (Raven) for actually getting there. Unsure if HoW worth it, Stealth is ok.
I disagree. First off the Fleet on Assault Marines is almost exactly the same as being able to use the Jump Pack in the Assualt Phase as both let you re-roll your charges.
The Raven Guard get a 24" max charge range (12" move +12" max charge distance on a good roll). The UM Marines get a 12" move, and fleet charge or a 6" move and a re-rollable charge. It can still got 24" but the Raven Guard get a free hit on the way in adding to the number of wounds they can force on their targets. Really all the UM get is a re-rollable run roll, but I don't see why anyone would want that when they could have Stealth to keep their Assault Marines alive longer.
Fleet allows you to roll individual dice...so if you get a 6 and a 1 you can just reroll the 1. Jump packs must reroll both dice together if you don't like the sum.
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Post by: Crazyterran
magodedisco wrote: The Grumpy Eldar wrote:God I hope that Pedro Kantor stays in there with somewhat the same rules or some extra tricks with Sternguard.
I just hope he no longer gives mandatory Stubborn. It is so much worse than ATSKNF this edition that it's not even funny. Just ask Dark Angels...
Consider that Stubborn didn't replace/remove ATSKNF... (seriously, people complain about ATSKNF and don't know exactly what it does?)
And there is no more Combat Tactics to let us choose to run away... hopefully it's one of our Warlord Traits >.>
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Post by: ClockworkZion
ductvader wrote:ClockworkZion wrote:Halfpast_Yellow wrote:Well, fleet assault units (Ultra) is much better than packs in both phases (Raven) for actually getting there. Unsure if HoW worth it, Stealth is ok.
I disagree. First off the Fleet on Assault Marines is almost exactly the same as being able to use the Jump Pack in the Assualt Phase as both let you re-roll your charges.
The Raven Guard get a 24" max charge range (12" move +12" max charge distance on a good roll). The UM Marines get a 12" move, and fleet charge or a 6" move and a re-rollable charge. It can still got 24" but the Raven Guard get a free hit on the way in adding to the number of wounds they can force on their targets. Really all the UM get is a re-rollable run roll, but I don't see why anyone would want that when they could have Stealth to keep their Assault Marines alive longer.
Fleet allows you to roll individual dice...so if you get a 6 and a 1 you can just reroll the 1. Jump packs must reroll both dice together if you don't like the sum.
That's a fair point. I still feel that the Raven Guard got a good set of rules.
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Post by: wtwlf123
Crazyterran wrote:magodedisco wrote: The Grumpy Eldar wrote:God I hope that Pedro Kantor stays in there with somewhat the same rules or some extra tricks with Sternguard.
I just hope he no longer gives mandatory Stubborn. It is so much worse than ATSKNF this edition that it's not even funny. Just ask Dark Angels...
Consider that Stubborn didn't replace/remove ATSKNF... (seriously, people complain about ATSKNF and don't know exactly what it does?)
And there is no more Combat Tactics to let us choose to run away... hopefully it's one of our Warlord Traits >.>
That would be insane if we could get the original Combat Tactics as a Warlord Trait. Goodness.
57815
Post by: Ferrum_Sanguinis
I know how with the current edition most SM players only take the minimum required number or troops, since yours points are better spent on other units. With what we know so far, do you guys see than changing? Will most people still be taking only 2 tactical/scout units (4 if they want double FOC) and spending the rest of their points on other stuff, or will the edition finally herald the return of SM troops as something you actually WANT to take, and not just a requirement?
I'm also wondering now that the Salamander's CT has Flamestorms count as twin-linked are we going to see more people using LR Redeemers?
45838
Post by: TechMarine1
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:I know how with the current edition most SM players only take the minimum required number or troops, since yours points are better spent on other units. With what we know so far, do you guys see than changing? Will most people still be taking only 2 tactical/scout units (4 if they want double FOC) and spending the rest of their points on other stuff, or will the edition finally herald the return of SM troops as something you actually WANT to take, and not just a requirement?
I'm also wondering now that the Salamander's CT has Flamestorms count as twin-linked are we going to see more people using LR Redeemers?
If TACs drop 2 points in price and have ap 2 salvo weapon,they may see an increase in use as you would be able to take more and arm to kill HEAVY infantry (terminators).
42470
Post by: SickSix
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:I know how with the current edition most SM players only take the minimum required number or troops, since yours points are better spent on other units. With what we know so far, do you guys see than changing? Will most people still be taking only 2 tactical/scout units (4 if they want double FOC) and spending the rest of their points on other stuff, or will the edition finally herald the return of SM troops as something you actually WANT to take, and not just a requirement?
I'm also wondering now that the Salamander's CT has Flamestorms count as twin-linked are we going to see more people using LR Redeemers?
Well I think UM players will field more tacticals. I think everyone else will be happy their two tactical squads are cheaper so they can spend even more points elsewhere. LOL
The problem with the Sallies CT is that you have to get into assault range to use all those flamers. So unless you run an all drop pod force, good luck flaming anyone. And your Redeemer will die before it gets in range of anything.
57815
Post by: Ferrum_Sanguinis
SickSix wrote: Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:I know how with the current edition most SM players only take the minimum required number or troops, since yours points are better spent on other units. With what we know so far, do you guys see than changing? Will most people still be taking only 2 tactical/scout units (4 if they want double FOC) and spending the rest of their points on other stuff, or will the edition finally herald the return of SM troops as something you actually WANT to take, and not just a requirement?
I'm also wondering now that the Salamander's CT has Flamestorms count as twin-linked are we going to see more people using LR Redeemers?
Well I think UM players will field more tacticals. I think everyone else will be happy their two tactical squads are cheaper so they can spend even more points elsewhere. LOL
The problem with the Sallies CT is that you have to get into assault range to use all those flamers. So unless you run an all drop pod force, good luck flaming anyone. And your Redeemer will die before it gets in range of anything.
What if you take two?
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Post by: magodedisco
Crazyterran wrote:magodedisco wrote: The Grumpy Eldar wrote:God I hope that Pedro Kantor stays in there with somewhat the same rules or some extra tricks with Sternguard.
I just hope he no longer gives mandatory Stubborn. It is so much worse than ATSKNF this edition that it's not even funny. Just ask Dark Angels...
Consider that Stubborn didn't replace/remove ATSKNF... (seriously, people complain about ATSKNF and don't know exactly what it does?)
And there is no more Combat Tactics to let us choose to run away... hopefully it's one of our Warlord Traits >.>
When a Tac squad/shooty unit gets caught in melee and takes some mean casualties, you'll be glad you don't have stubborn, which would force you to more than likely stick around and continue to get stomped rather than backing out and firing on your turn.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Personally I've always been a fan of having at least 3 scoring units at 1,500 points. Now it looks like the Marines are getting cheaper but it's likely safe to bet their wargear goes up to match their lowered costs. I'm okay with this since everything else (for the most part anyway) seems to also be going down in points here and there so it should be easier to fit options in here and there.
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Post by: NickTheButcher
SickSix wrote: Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:I know how with the current edition most SM players only take the minimum required number or troops, since yours points are better spent on other units. With what we know so far, do you guys see than changing? Will most people still be taking only 2 tactical/scout units (4 if they want double FOC) and spending the rest of their points on other stuff, or will the edition finally herald the return of SM troops as something you actually WANT to take, and not just a requirement?
I'm also wondering now that the Salamander's CT has Flamestorms count as twin-linked are we going to see more people using LR Redeemers?
Well I think UM players will field more tacticals. I think everyone else will be happy their two tactical squads are cheaper so they can spend even more points elsewhere. LOL
The problem with the Sallies CT is that you have to get into assault range to use all those flamers. So unless you run an all drop pod force, good luck flaming anyone. And your Redeemer will die before it gets in range of anything.
Do people run Salamander lists without drop pods?
I have to agree with the LRR sentiment. TL or not, Flamestorm is awesome, but it's pretty much impossible to use in 6th.
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Post by: Halfpast_Yellow
ClockworkZion wrote:Halfpast_Yellow wrote:Well, fleet assault units (Ultra) is much better than packs in both phases (Raven) for actually getting there. Unsure if HoW worth it, Stealth is ok.
I disagree. First off the Fleet on Assault Marines is almost exactly the same as being able to use the Jump Pack in the Assualt Phase as both let you re-roll your charges.
The Raven Guard get a 24" max charge range (12" move +12" max charge distance on a good roll). The UM Marines get a 12" move, and fleet charge or a 6" move and a re-rollable charge. It can still got 24" but the Raven Guard get a free hit on the way in adding to the number of wounds they can force on their targets. Really all the UM get is a re-rollable run roll, but I don't see why anyone would want that when they could have Stealth to keep their Assault Marines alive longer.
You disagree with math? Fleet is much better because you pick which dice to reroll, rather than having to roll all of them.
Doesn't sound like much, but it is a big difference.
The run thing is also good too.
The problem with the HoW attack is you need to have a model in b2b to do one, hence unsure if worth giving up fleet for full reroll.
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Post by: cadbren
MajorWesJanson wrote: ace101 wrote:After seeing the rumors about chapter tactics, im concerned. I really want to have blood ravens tactics, yet they arent related to the first founding chapters (seeing as they are 1k sons loyalists). If the chapter tactics rumors are true, what tactics are we blood ravens fanboys supposed to choose?
Typed on XBox live.
Drop Pods at 12 men was great as you could fit a full squad and a character, letting you combat squad when you drop. At the same time, though 10 means you have to make choices, and the model is clearly meant for 10.
Be thankful it's 10, the original one was a forge world release and it only had five spaces and was modelled such. It also couldn't take terminators and had no weapon capability.
Blood Ravens? No official founding chapter (unless they list one in the new codex) so pick what you want. I'd go with UM so you can run Tiggy and Telion.
Wouldn't they fit better with the Blood Angels? All that instability, Mephiston etc? Automatically Appended Next Post: Plus they are both red so visually similar.
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Post by: tvih
 NickTheButcher wrote:
I have to agree with the LRR sentiment. TL or not, Flamestorm is awesome, but it's pretty much impossible to use in 6th.
At least it has the potential to kill something, unlike the LRC
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Post by: Fezman
Speaking as someone who thinks that Tactical Squads are one of the most unfairly underestimated units out there, I'm glad to see them getting more recognition, though now there's the risk of them being called OP if you take the Tactical trait. Too bad.
I ran three Tactical Squads before it was cool...
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Post by: Puscifer
Blood Ravens are definitely not a BA successor chapter. Says so in the BA codex.
While they are rumoured to be derived from Thousand Sons, I'd be more inclined to use the UM rules and use Tigurius as their Chief Librarian/Chapter Master before he fell to Chaos.
I'd probably use the IF rules, specifically Lysander's for Gabriel Angelos, for everything after DoW 2.
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Post by: smurfORnot
TechMarine1 wrote: Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:I know how with the current edition most SM players only take the minimum required number or troops, since yours points are better spent on other units. With what we know so far, do you guys see than changing? Will most people still be taking only 2 tactical/scout units (4 if they want double FOC) and spending the rest of their points on other stuff, or will the edition finally herald the return of SM troops as something you actually WANT to take, and not just a requirement?
I'm also wondering now that the Salamander's CT has Flamestorms count as twin-linked are we going to see more people using LR Redeemers?
If TACs drop 2 points in price and have ap 2 salvo weapon,they may see an increase in use as you would be able to take more and arm to kill HEAVY infantry (terminators).
Or you know, terminators can just stay outside of your 18'' range when you stand or 15'' range when you move and shoot you...Same with other big boys like riptide,wraithknight/wraithlord... they will just outrange you and kill you from distance...so yeah, good luck killing everything with your crappy low range salvo grav guns. Heck. Other marines can also just stay at 24'' and kill you with plasma guns which you gave up.
Yea, they drop 2 points, but now you have to pay for everything, they are same as DA tacticals. So in the end, you will only save 10pts, which is 1 pt drop. Not a big saving is it?
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Post by: THE_DUDE
 Fezman wrote:Speaking as someone who thinks that Tactical Squads are one of the most unfairly underestimated units out there, I'm glad to see them getting more recognition, though now there's the risk of them being called OP if you take the Tactical trait. Too bad.
I ran three Tactical Squads before it was cool...
I agree, I've always liked Tactical Squads as well. Had a minimum of three. Then again I actually played Ultramarine painted Marines so I would have felt weird not having a decent showing of Tactical Marines.
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Post by: mwnciboo
Tactical Squads are probably the key to winning games, when I shifted to 3-4 Tacticals in Rhino's and started to religiously engineer situations where I could get them inside of 12" my Squads became death dealers. The key that I found to it, is to use two Squads to deal with one Enemy Squad, yes it's overkill in a sense but gunning down an entire enemy unit in one round is massively demoralising for an opponent.
Limited Edition Space Marine Codex (online only) $115
500 copies only for each book (numbered endpaper)
1. Iron Hands
2. Imperial Fists
3. Ultramarines
4. Ravenguard
5. Salanders
6. White Scars
When they say online do they mean E-books or do they mean they mean it's physical but you can only order it online?
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
 smurfORnot wrote:TechMarine1 wrote: Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:I know how with the current edition most SM players only take the minimum required number or troops, since yours points are better spent on other units. With what we know so far, do you guys see than changing? Will most people still be taking only 2 tactical/scout units (4 if they want double FOC) and spending the rest of their points on other stuff, or will the edition finally herald the return of SM troops as something you actually WANT to take, and not just a requirement?
I'm also wondering now that the Salamander's CT has Flamestorms count as twin-linked are we going to see more people using LR Redeemers?
If TACs drop 2 points in price and have ap 2 salvo weapon,they may see an increase in use as you would be able to take more and arm to kill HEAVY infantry (terminators).
Or you know, terminators can just stay outside of your 18'' range when you stand or 15'' range when you move and shoot you...Same with other big boys like riptide,wraithknight/wraithlord... they will just outrange you and kill you from distance...so yeah, good luck killing everything with your crappy low range salvo grav guns. Heck. Other marines can also just stay at 24'' and kill you with plasma guns which you gave up.
Yea, they drop 2 points, but now you have to pay for everything, they are same as DA tacticals. So in the end, you will only save 10pts, which is 1 pt drop. Not a big saving is it?
If only there were some kind of transport vehicle that let you get close to whatever you want to shoot without having to cross the board first...
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Post by: Godless-Mimicry
 mwnciboo wrote:Limited Edition Space Marine Codex (online only) $115
500 copies only for each book (numbered endpaper)
1. Iron Hands
2. Imperial Fists
3. Ultramarines
4. Ravenguard
5. Salanders
6. White Scars
When they say online do they mean E-books or do they mean they mean it's physical but you can only order it online?
Pretty sure it just means that you have to order directly from the GW site and that you can't get them in the store.
66089
Post by: Kangodo
mwnciboo wrote:When they say online do they mean E-books or do they mean they mean it's physical but you can only order it online?
-500 copies
-numbered endpaper
-Special front
It's physical and you can only order it online.
71171
Post by: Ironwill13791
AlmightyWalrus wrote: smurfORnot wrote:TechMarine1 wrote: Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:I know how with the current edition most SM players only take the minimum required number or troops, since yours points are better spent on other units. With what we know so far, do you guys see than changing? Will most people still be taking only 2 tactical/scout units (4 if they want double FOC) and spending the rest of their points on other stuff, or will the edition finally herald the return of SM troops as something you actually WANT to take, and not just a requirement?
I'm also wondering now that the Salamander's CT has Flamestorms count as twin-linked are we going to see more people using LR Redeemers?
If TACs drop 2 points in price and have ap 2 salvo weapon,they may see an increase in use as you would be able to take more and arm to kill HEAVY infantry (terminators).
Or you know, terminators can just stay outside of your 18'' range when you stand or 15'' range when you move and shoot you...Same with other big boys like riptide,wraithknight/wraithlord... they will just outrange you and kill you from distance...so yeah, good luck killing everything with your crappy low range salvo grav guns. Heck. Other marines can also just stay at 24'' and kill you with plasma guns which you gave up.
Yea, they drop 2 points, but now you have to pay for everything, they are same as DA tacticals. So in the end, you will only save 10pts, which is 1 pt drop. Not a big saving is it?
If only there were some kind of transport vehicle that let you get close to whatever you want to shoot without having to cross the board first...
Oh, I know. What is a Drop Pod? (and I know you were being sarcastic)
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Halfpast_Yellow wrote:ClockworkZion wrote:Halfpast_Yellow wrote:Well, fleet assault units (Ultra) is much better than packs in both phases (Raven) for actually getting there. Unsure if HoW worth it, Stealth is ok.
I disagree. First off the Fleet on Assault Marines is almost exactly the same as being able to use the Jump Pack in the Assualt Phase as both let you re-roll your charges.
The Raven Guard get a 24" max charge range (12" move +12" max charge distance on a good roll). The UM Marines get a 12" move, and fleet charge or a 6" move and a re-rollable charge. It can still got 24" but the Raven Guard get a free hit on the way in adding to the number of wounds they can force on their targets. Really all the UM get is a re-rollable run roll, but I don't see why anyone would want that when they could have Stealth to keep their Assault Marines alive longer.
You disagree with math? Fleet is much better because you pick which dice to reroll, rather than having to roll all of them.
Doesn't sound like much, but it is a big difference.
The run thing is also good too.
The problem with the HoW attack is you need to have a model in b2b to do one, hence unsure if worth giving up fleet for full reroll.
Raven Guard can charge over intervening terrain without penalty, unlike Fleet though. HoW is just a nice bonus, I'll admit, but it's still more attacks which the unit frankly needs as Vanilla ASM don't have things like Furious Charge to boost their damage capabilities.
EDIT: I just wanted to also point out that even if you charge into cover you're not slowed when your using a Jump Pack. It's just a dangerous terrain test for all the models and those are pretty easy to live through now that you can take armor saves against them.
67213
Post by: ids1984
I'm sure people will of worked this out but I saw it with my own eyes today:
Pre order 31 Aug 13
Release 7 Sep 13
45133
Post by: ClockworkZion
ids1984 wrote:I'm sure people will of worked this out but I saw it with my own eyes today:
Pre order 31 Aug 13
Release 7 Sep 13
Well naturally. That's the last Saturday of this month and the first of next. The really surprising thing would have been if we'd seen another 2 week pre-order like Apoc did.
67213
Post by: ids1984
ClockworkZion wrote:ids1984 wrote:I'm sure people will of worked this out but I saw it with my own eyes today:
Pre order 31 Aug 13
Release 7 Sep 13
Well naturally. That's the last Saturday of this month and the first of next. The really surprising thing would have been if we'd seen another 2 week pre-order like Apoc did.
There was another preorder on the calender a couple weeks later as well, but thats crossing into another thread...
77457
Post by: centuryslayer
I actually like the look of the Centurions... I'll be damned! :0
they'd look super cool in an Iron hands army, torn and with some yellow/black stripes on, giving them a heavy workload feel.
still the power armorception going on is a bit...wierd
20650
Post by: Pyriel-
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:I know how with the current edition most SM players only take the minimum required number or troops, since yours points are better spent on other units. With what we know so far, do you guys see than changing? Will most people still be taking only 2 tactical/scout units (4 if they want double FOC) and spending the rest of their points on other stuff, or will the edition finally herald the return of SM troops as something you actually WANT to take, and not just a requirement?
I'm also wondering now that the Salamander's CT has Flamestorms count as twin-linked are we going to see more people using LR Redeemers?
My point exactly. I see to few tacs around here because they just dont do much. In our meta they are often just viewed as a necessary evil taken in 2 or at most 3 units and used only to grab objectives, try not to get killed of and at most to support other better units as they are far to weak to do anything on their own even when massed.
The people around here who really love(d) tacs tried time and again to make armies that had 4-6 tacs in them and failed miserably.
Would be nice to see them get a point reduction but I dont know how much that will help. DA tacs have stubborn an it is not exactly as I see them being heavily used.
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Post by: d-usa
I think from the rumors the Devastator box isn't getting recut, so will the Tac box be the only source of heavy grav weapons?
45740
Post by: Bonesnapper
And I had great success with three 10 man tactical squads and one 5 man scout squad at 2000 points. Due to combat squads they became so numerous that many opponents had a really hard time to deal with them all. Seven scooring umits was a beast in most fights. I don't really see this changing.
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Post by: Red Corsair
A good review though I disagree with some of your opinions regarding Home brews and chapter tactics. I feel that it's a bit snobbish to frown on people using a home brew for variation in their games. I mean its fine for someone to show up with 4 SM armies all painted in first founding chapters each week so they can mix it up, but it's WAAC behavior to be creative enough to make your own chapter and be able to mix it up from time to time at will without spending 4X the cost?
I also disagree with your review of the IF and RG chapter tactics. As it stands there is no reason to ever field IF over Ultras unless you are facing massed tanks and Fortress spam each week and if not for stealth I would say the same for RG. It's also ironic you don't see how fielding the UM is at an advantage since you disagree with homebrews mixing it up, since the Ultras have free reign to mix it up between three options then they are the most flexible and flavorful choice for anyone playing by your standards.
Also disagree with your take on mixing characters and other CT. This was a golden opportunity for them to allow players to make second founding and home brews similar to their heritage but divergent enough to be called their own. For example, why shouldn't iron hands successors be able to use IH CT and vulcan to represent a fabrication hero who makes their "welders" more reliable? This just makes the push toward UM that much more tempting as now I can't field Tigurious in my soul drinkers without being pigeon holed into their CT which I don't think fit as well as say RG or IH's where the increased durability could represent their psychic precognition.... Really unfortunate IMO.
38817
Post by: dracpanzer
ClockworkZion wrote:Personally I've always been a fan of having at least 3 scoring units at 1,500 points. Now it looks like the Marines are getting cheaper but it's likely safe to bet their wargear goes up to match their lowered costs. I'm okay with this since everything else (for the most part anyway) seems to also be going down in points here and there so it should be easier to fit options in here and there.
If you take the DA list as a basis, as per the rumor, my melta/lascannon tacticals save 5 points if you go for the sgt's ld 9 upgrade.
Any word yet on whether or not sternguard combi-weapons jumped to 10 pts a piece like DA company vets? Not looking forward to them getting more expensive.
45133
Post by: ClockworkZion
d-usa wrote:I think from the rumors the Devastator box isn't getting recut, so will the Tac box be the only source of heavy grav weapons?
The only heavy Grav Weapons are the Grav Cannons which are restricted to the Devastator Centurions. The Grav Gun is a Special Weapon.
36303
Post by: Puscifer
d-usa wrote:I think from the rumors the Devastator box isn't getting recut, so will the Tac box be the only source of heavy grav weapons?
I was under the impression that only the Centurions had the heavy Grav Weapons.
I could be wrong. Automatically Appended Next Post: ^^ What he said.
5269
Post by: lord_blackfang
 Red Corsair wrote:
I also disagree with your review of the IF and RG chapter tactics. As it stands there is no reason to ever field IF over Ultras
Well, having an army painted as IF would be a pretty good reason not to run them as UM, I would think.
72133
Post by: StarTrotter
lord_blackfang wrote: Red Corsair wrote:
I also disagree with your review of the IF and RG chapter tactics. As it stands there is no reason to ever field IF over Ultras
Well, having an army painted as IF would be a pretty good reason not to run them as UM, I would think.
Problem being that when has this stopped people from deploying non-painted models or even using those IF models that happen to have fluff for marines but just so happening to use ultramarine rules. Or better yet they are painted IF but just happen to actually by a UM descendant. Come on we all know one of the main reasons SM are popular is that they are bound to get an update and you can hop codices if the creep becomes too restrictive.
I agree that between IF and UM tactics I'd rather go UM any day. Twin-linked tactical marines and every other unit re-rolling ones meaning generally the only time they will miss is on a 2? Sign me up! Also overwatch re-rolls as well. Worried about overheating plasma? Well sorry no more! Whilst Combat Tactics (letting you run away) was very good, what UM got more than makes up for it. Also whoever said stubborn was good on marines not really. Don't forget that this means they aren't prone to running away which means they aren't shooting. And if you are losing in cc you probably don't want to stay in there!
Finally, I'd be all for restricting named characters to exact chapters if every chapter had several named characters. Problem is there isn't. How do I represent my successor chapter with diversity of choice whilst still going the playstyle I love (I love playing Salamander Drop Pod lists) when you have taken away every other named character that I can get meaning I cannot have a scout company master, I cannot use somebody like Pedro to represent my etc. Things like that. Whilst it keeps it fluffy it also restricts player's ability to grab Tigurious and use him as a powerful psyker (since the randomness is a thing and since there are only 4 levels of psykers and imperials only get up to 3. Keep to mind I'm a chaos daemon and csm player so I'm used to high level psykers and I tend to bring a psyker to most fights simply because I like them (even when they weren't as great)). Finally I'd be against being snooty against custom made chapter tactics. It's homebrew so if the group likes it it is fine. Let somebody be creative rather then being forced into walls in a game that really isn't balanced enough to be a truly competitive game.
25400
Post by: Fayric
Puscifer wrote: d-usa wrote:I think from the rumors the Devastator box isn't getting recut, so will the Tac box be the only source of heavy grav weapons?
I was under the impression that only the Centurions had the heavy Grav Weapons.
I could be wrong.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
^^ What he said.
Probably the Centurions complained with the Union they would not take Plasma because of the risks involved when it gets hot.
This deal was also expanded to tacticals.
Union reps for PA Devestators was however not able to change their plasma use since they are bound for another 50 years before the deal is due for renegotiation.
This did nothing to improve the tention between Centurion Devs and PA Devs, the PA Devs already complaining about the Centurions taking their name, job and already get better armour protection.
62096
Post by: zasz
I hope sternguard combis stay at 5 points. Ten points is to much for a one time weapon.
45133
Post by: ClockworkZion
Red Corsair wrote:
A good review though I disagree with some of your opinions regarding Home brews and chapter tactics. I feel that it's a bit snobbish to frown on people using a home brew for variation in their games. I mean its fine for someone to show up with 4 SM armies all painted in first founding chapters each week so they can mix it up, but it's WAAC behavior to be creative enough to make your own chapter and be able to mix it up from time to time at will without spending 4X the cost?
I'm not against people making homebrew chapters. I'm against people intentionally gaming the system for a mechanical advantage. I disagree with that sort of mentality on a personal level and feel that people shouldn't be rewarded for jumping chapter tactics everytime they bring a new list just to get a slightly better mechanical advantage. That's just my personal opinion, and if you want to call it "snobbish" that's fine.
The thing is though is I'm starting to build an Exorcists army. I'm doing the full 3rd Battle Company because I think it'd look cool. They're a chapter that officially changes up it's tactics a lot of keep the enemy guessing. In the end I'll still be picking one chapter tactic and sticking with it. I feel that the way the system is designed that it's more rewarding to build your list to take advantage of your chapter tactic, not change your chapter tactic to gain an easier mechanical advantage.
Red Corsair wrote:I also disagree with your review of the IF and RG chapter tactics. As it stands there is no reason to ever field IF over Ultras unless you are facing massed tanks and Fortress spam each week and if not for stealth I would say the same for RG. It's also ironic you don't see how fielding the UM is at an advantage since you disagree with homebrews mixing it up, since the Ultras have free reign to mix it up between three options then they are the most flexible and flavorful choice for anyone playing by your standards.
Well for one, tank hunters and flakk missiles means that Imperial Fists have some decent anti-air options. And secondly Ravenguard can charge through terrain more effectively with their jump packs than the UM can. I'm sure we'll still get some people wanting to run the UM rules on everything but if you want your SCs properly you need to use the right chapter tactics.
Also it looks like we might be moving away from the age of "well they're Salamanders but I'm playing them as White Scars because I want better bikes" because from they way the rules sound, if you put Salamanders on the table that's all they are is Salamanders.
I don't see it as ironic at all. The UM set if paticularly fluffy for what it should be, and covers a good 3/5 of all the Marine chapters out there. On the other hand the other chapter tactics are designed to be used expressly by those chapters and their successors which makes me call shenanigans if I see Iron Hands using White Scars rules. They're two different sub-factions with two different intended styles of play, and cherry picking rules out of the codex is hardly what the book is designed for you to do. Feel free to disagree, I just think we should be rewarding the players who make the effort to actually use their chapter tactics to their fullest instead of bouncing around like a hyperactive child.
Red Corsair wrote:Also disagree with your take on mixing characters and other CT. This was a golden opportunity for them to allow players to make second founding and home brews similar to their heritage but divergent enough to be called their own. For example, why shouldn't iron hands successors be able to use IH CT and vulcan to represent a fabrication hero who makes their "welders" more reliable? This just makes the push toward UM that much more tempting as now I can't field Tigurious in my soul drinkers without being pigeon holed into their CT which I don't think fit as well as say RG or IH's where the increased durability could represent their psychic precognition.... Really unfortunate IMO.
Frankly the whole mixing SCs thing was something that's always bothered me. "I'm playing Imperial Fists, but I brought Telion." Very few people picked these guys for their potential fluffy options, they picked them for the mechanics they gave the army. Now the SCs are tied to their chapter traits, and you can still do count as with those chapters successors but we're not looking at seeing some of the abuse of the last edition and I'm excited about that.
Besides, these restrictions are actually good for the codex. They keep it from being the " OP" mess that some people were claiming it'd turn into.
 dracpanzer wrote:ClockworkZion wrote:Personally I've always been a fan of having at least 3 scoring units at 1,500 points. Now it looks like the Marines are getting cheaper but it's likely safe to bet their wargear goes up to match their lowered costs. I'm okay with this since everything else (for the most part anyway) seems to also be going down in points here and there so it should be easier to fit options in here and there.
If you take the DA list as a basis, as per the rumor, my melta/lascannon tacticals save 5 points if you go for the sgt's ld 9 upgrade.
Any word yet on whether or not sternguard combi-weapons jumped to 10 pts a piece like DA company vets? Not looking forward to them getting more expensive.
No word on the change in combi-weapon points. And 5 points less isn't too ridiculious honestly. It's a small decrease, but not much of one.
Automatically Appended Next Post: zasz wrote:I hope sternguard combis stay at 5 points. Ten points is to much for a one time weapon.
With their points cost reduction I see it going up to 10 points again.
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Post by: Red Corsair
zasz wrote:I hope sternguard combis stay at 5 points. Ten points is to much for a one time weapon.
I love sternguard but they have never really been efficient when maxing them out. I mean unless you pod in regularly and combat squad and nab a land raider or two they generally struggle to get their cost back. Your generally better off taking a couple melta guns and leaving them with stock bolters grabbing first blood and crippling a unit they won't survive past their drop anyway, which is an ironic roll for 1st company veterans IMO.
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Post by: zasz
it looks like they will go back to 10. from what i have seen points may have gone down a little bit. but at best i will save 10-20 points in my 2k list
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Post by: Fezman
We've been told that that Sternguard are going to cost fewer points per model and that the special ammo is unchanged. I feel like if there were going to be any other major point changes like combibolters doubling in price we would have heard by now.
With that in mind, I'm feeling optimistic that they'll stay as 5 points.
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Post by: StarTrotter
Wait you mean like mixing in Kharn into a slaanesh army where it won't work as well but Kharn can still possibly beat face if you shove him in a rhino with some meatshields (cutlists or terminators) or the daemon codex where WHOA Lord of Change in a Nurgle army or even Eldar where you can grab multiple factions and shove them together (or tau and ally in more riptides and battlesuits even though farsight enclaves wouldn't have the best relationship with tau).
Personally I didn't want anything broken (because broken mechanics will likely appear in this codex no matter what). Yet I don't get why UM are better at shooting every single gun in the game better than any other marine and that being only a half a point (along with And they shall know no fear) over a standard CSM. Then you get armies that are like Salamanders where they have lost the twin-linked melta and master crafted hammers replaced with master crafted on one hq weapon and flamers being twin-linked (still) and getting to re-roll pen and glances on vehicles with flame throwers? Like what the heck does that even do? The flamers I know of are like S4 or 5 which means they can rarely do anything to a vehicle so why even mention it? And then you go into ones that aren't as convenient (I'd argue that the IF and RG are still not as good as the UM ones even if they do have their advantages). Finally, I understand you don't want people grabbing guys from different chapters but I was always one that loved bringing Telion just because he was a 4+ save company master. Fluff-wise my guys rely heavily on scouts to go out inhead of time and prepare co-ordinates and the sorts and so I've gotten Telion due to how unique he is. Along with that I would use Tigurius to represent my highest level psyker as fluff wise their thing was a leaning and preference for psykers. Yet now these options have been ripped away from me making it more difficult for me to set up a way to continue developing the characters that I have modeled, customized, and tried to make different.
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Post by: zasz
Red Corsair wrote:zasz wrote:I hope sternguard combis stay at 5 points. Ten points is to much for a one time weapon.
I love sternguard but they have never really been efficient when maxing them out. I mean unless you pod in regularly and combat squad and nab a land raider or two they generally struggle to get their cost back. Your generally better off taking a couple melta guns and leaving them with stock bolters grabbing first blood and crippling a unit they won't survive past their drop anyway, which is an ironic roll for 1st company veterans IMO.
i play a drop pod list with 30 sternguard 3 ironclad and a tac squad in drop pods. it works aright. i was hoping that the drop in point cost meant that i could add some thing i was missing. buy with wargear prices going up i don't really gain anything.
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Post by: Vaerros
ClockworkZion wrote:
Frankly the whole mixing SCs thing was something that's always bothered me. "I'm playing Imperial Fists, but I brought Telion." Very few people picked these guys for their potential fluffy options, they picked them for the mechanics they gave the army. Now the SCs are tied to their chapter traits, and you can still do count as with those chapters successors but we're not looking at seeing some of the abuse of the last edition and I'm excited about that.
Besides, these restrictions are actually good for the codex. They keep it from being the " OP" mess that some people were claiming it'd turn into.
I would've rather seen at least secondary/add-on characters with no CT restrictions. I think Telion would be an appropriate addition to a Raptors(Raven Guard) force, for example.
I'd say the same for Sgt. Chronus for maybe an IF/successor force, although the rumor compilation doesn't mention CT restrictions for him. I suppose we'll see when the codex is actually released.
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Post by: Crimson
Am I only one who thinks that it is incredibly stupid that Ultra tacticals are better shots than their veterans? How does that make any sense?
In any case, if these rumours are true, I don't think GW really thought this through. Ultra tactical trait is just hands down better than anything else. Increased accuracy of all shooting in a shooty edition, immunity to plasma overheat (in edition where plasma is good) and tacticals manning Icarus lascannons is just absurdly good.
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Post by: Red Corsair
I'm not against people making homebrew chapters. I'm against people intentionally gaming the system for a mechanical advantage. I disagree with that sort of mentality on a personal level and feel that people shouldn't be rewarded for jumping chapter tactics everytime they bring a new list just to get a slightly better mechanical advantage. That's just my personal opinion, and if you want to call it "snobbish" that's fine.
The thing is though is I'm starting to build an Exorcists army. I'm doing the full 3rd Battle Company because I think it'd look cool. They're a chapter that officially changes up it's tactics a lot of keep the enemy guessing. In the end I'll still be picking one chapter tactic and sticking with it. I feel that the way the system is designed that it's more rewarding to build your list to take advantage of your chapter tactic, not change your chapter tactic to gain an easier mechanical advantage.
Yea but your missing the point where you are assuming that all players switching up their CT is for a mechanical advantage and not for fluff or variation. Maybe you rarely get a game in, or maybe you never tire of routine. Good for you but for most of us changing it up a bit from time to time keeps the hobby new and refreshing. You still haven't addressed the part where its fine according to you for one guy to own 7 marine armies ie. more models then he can ever use in standard 40K at any given time but it's not ok for someone creative (read intelligent) enough to spend 1/7th the amount as the other guy yet have the same rewards. This isn't gaming the system, this is called being a smart consumer.
Well for one, tank hunters and flakk missiles means that Imperial Fists have some decent anti-air options. And secondly Ravenguard can charge through terrain more effectively with their jump packs than the UM can. I'm sure we'll still get some people wanting to run the UM rules on everything but if you want your SCs properly you need to use the right chapter tactics.
Also it looks like we might be moving away from the age of "well they're Salamanders but I'm playing them as White Scars because I want better bikes" because from they way the rules sound, if you put Salamanders on the table that's all they are is Salamanders.
I don't see it as ironic at all. The UM set if particularly fluffy for what it should be, and covers a good 3/5 of all the Marine chapters out there. On the other hand the other chapter tactics are designed to be used expressly by those chapters and their successors which makes me call shenanigans if I see Iron Hands using White Scars rules. They're two different sub-factions with two different intended styles of play, and cherry picking rules out of the codex is hardly what the book is designed for you to do. Feel free to disagree, I just think we should be rewarding the players who make the effort to actually use their chapter tactics to their fullest instead of bouncing around like a hyperactive child.
I'll ignore the jab at the end which is more childish then your accusation and address your grossly over generalized response instead. Actually cherry picking rules is required in order to use a book with so many CT and options but I guess you missed that part. BA, DA, and SW now those books are not made for cherry picking but C: SM was and always has been made for cherry picking in order to make your own unique chapters. I still fail to understand how making your own color scheme or choosing a successor for its design should lock you out of your preferred play style and in fact, if you were to talk to any GW rep they would encourage this behavior if it means selling marines. Personally I would rather reward creativity then the idiot who buys 5 different marine armies because someone has convinced him that despite painting his chapter as lets say Nova Quenchers he now can only ever field them as Salamanders CT because he played them that way once upon a time.
Frankly the whole mixing SCs thing was something that's always bothered me. "I'm playing Imperial Fists, but I brought Telion." Very few people picked these guys for their potential fluffy options, they picked them for the mechanics they gave the army. Now the SCs are tied to their chapter traits, and you can still do count as with those chapters successors but we're not looking at seeing some of the abuse of the last edition and I'm excited about that.
Besides, these restrictions are actually good for the codex. They keep it from being the "OP" mess that some people were claiming it'd turn into.
First off, in what world was it ever been broken for someone to field Telion in IF? It's annoying for some players, myself included, that UM get 6 named characters while IH get 0. According to you it's not kosher for someone to play an IH successor unless using IH CT yet if there is a character in their fluff that is perfectly represented by another SC their  outta luck. Sorry this is just silly and in case you missed it, it's not just restrictive to players mechanically but it ties their hands from a fluff and flavor standpoint. I'd also love an example of what combo of SC's would suddenly be broken?
Tau can bring Farsight and Shadowsun without allying which makes 0 sense and is by far more gamey then any combo SM SC's can bring from what I have read but again apparently a home brew chapter boasting Shrike and Telion counts as would be completely meta changing
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Post by: Avatrass
Fezman wrote:With that in mind, I'm feeling optimistic that they'll stay as 5 points.
I don't remember where have I read it, but i'm quite certain, that combi-weapons go up tp 10 points per vet. Thats fair and balanced, I like it. Now having 22-32 point cost versus old 25-30 there is a reason to use special ammo instead of spamming combi.
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Post by: Vaktathi
So, did anyone else notice the rumors for the stalker at slightly cheaper than the price of a current Hydra with twice the number of shots and better side armor+ split fire?
On top of stuff like army-wide rerolling 1's and other shennanigans, this looks like it's going to be a massive bandwagon-fest It's going to be *very* easy to lots of players to look at the new book and think "hey..." 
I'm just glad the sallies chapter tactic doesn't apply to meltas as well as initially purported.
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Post by: Sasori
 Vaktathi wrote:So, did anyone else notice the rumors for the stalker at slightly cheaper than the price of a current Hydra with twice the number of shots and better side armor+ split fire?
On top of stuff like army-wide rerolling 1's and other shennanigans, this looks like it's going to be a massive bandwagon-fest It's going to be *very* easy to lots of players to look at the new book and think "hey..."
I'm just glad the sallies chapter tactic doesn't apply to meltas as well as initially purported.
Yeah... It's pretty sad. This codex looks like it may be able to do CSMs better, than the CSM codex.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Red Corsair wrote:I'm not against people making homebrew chapters. I'm against people intentionally gaming the system for a mechanical advantage. I disagree with that sort of mentality on a personal level and feel that people shouldn't be rewarded for jumping chapter tactics everytime they bring a new list just to get a slightly better mechanical advantage. That's just my personal opinion, and if you want to call it "snobbish" that's fine.
The thing is though is I'm starting to build an Exorcists army. I'm doing the full 3rd Battle Company because I think it'd look cool. They're a chapter that officially changes up it's tactics a lot of keep the enemy guessing. In the end I'll still be picking one chapter tactic and sticking with it. I feel that the way the system is designed that it's more rewarding to build your list to take advantage of your chapter tactic, not change your chapter tactic to gain an easier mechanical advantage.
Yea but your missing the point where you are assuming that all players switching up their CT is for a mechanical advantage and not for fluff or variation. Maybe you rarely get a game in, or maybe you never tire of routine. Good for you but for most of us changing it up a bit from time to time keeps the hobby new and refreshing. You still haven't addressed the part where its fine according to you for one guy to own 7 marine armies ie. more models then he can ever use in standard 40K at any given time but it's not ok for someone creative (read intelligent) enough to spend 1/7th the amount as the other guy yet have the same rewards. This isn't gaming the system, this is called being a smart consumer.
If someone I knew came up to me and asked for a game then mentioned he was going to use different chapter tactics for a change of pace, I'd probably be alright with that. But if the same guy was constantly tailoring his list and tactics to use against me or other players based on what he was playing against I wouldn't play him. It's the second kind of player I don't want to play against because I don't find him fun to play.
And for the record I don't see either as smarter than the other, just differently oriented in how they approach the game. The thing is I like games with people who take the time to really theme up their army and will use these rules to make their armies even more thematic and awesome. I don't like playing the guy who at best primes his models, constantly switches rules, codexes and so on for a slight advantage over learning how to play his army better. You call my point of view on this snobbish, but really it just comes down to how I have fun being different than how you do.
Red Corsair wrote:Well for one, tank hunters and flakk missiles means that Imperial Fists have some decent anti-air options. And secondly Ravenguard can charge through terrain more effectively with their jump packs than the UM can. I'm sure we'll still get some people wanting to run the UM rules on everything but if you want your SCs properly you need to use the right chapter tactics.
Also it looks like we might be moving away from the age of "well they're Salamanders but I'm playing them as White Scars because I want better bikes" because from they way the rules sound, if you put Salamanders on the table that's all they are is Salamanders.
I don't see it as ironic at all. The UM set if particularly fluffy for what it should be, and covers a good 3/5 of all the Marine chapters out there. On the other hand the other chapter tactics are designed to be used expressly by those chapters and their successors which makes me call shenanigans if I see Iron Hands using White Scars rules. They're two different sub-factions with two different intended styles of play, and cherry picking rules out of the codex is hardly what the book is designed for you to do. Feel free to disagree, I just think we should be rewarding the players who make the effort to actually use their chapter tactics to their fullest instead of bouncing around like a hyperactive child.
I'll ignore the jab at the end which is more childish then your accusation and address your grossly over generalized response instead. Actually cherry picking rules is required in order to use a book with so many CT and options but I guess you missed that part. BA, DA, and SW now those books are not made for cherry picking but C: SM was and always has been made for cherry picking in order to make your own unique chapters. I still fail to understand how making your own color scheme or choosing a successor for its design should lock you out of your preferred play style and in fact, if you were to talk to any GW rep they would encourage this behavior if it means selling marines. Personally I would rather reward creativity then the idiot who buys 5 different marine armies because someone has convinced him that despite painting his chapter as lets say Nova Quenchers he now can only ever field them as Salamanders CT because he played them that way once upon a time.
That was not a "jab" at every person, or even you. That was a "jab" at the kind of player who doesn't play a single army but seems to play what ever Marine army the internet says is "strongest" right now. The kind of player who everyone knows at least one of, who bounces from book to book as they come out just to get that slight edge on everyone else.
Frankly, I don't care what GW reps encourage. They're job is to push models not worry about the balance of the game. Let's not pretend that just because they wear a shirt with the company logo on it that they're somehow the higher bastions on how the game is balanced or designed.
When you pick up the colors and name of an existing successor you pick up their baggage with these rules. From everything that's come out if you have a chapter of any sort that ties itself to those chapters who have named Chapter Traits in this book, that's the rule you get. Period. Can you house rule other options? Perhaps, but from the information we have the design seems pretty cut and dry. You pick Iron Knights? Here's the IF Chapter trait. Sons of Medusa? Iron Hands for you.
Arguing that people should be able to just run a muck on that seems counter to what we're being presented are the actual rules, which is what my opinion is based on.
These Chapter Tactics are free bonuses that don't require you do field any characters or buy upgrades or what have you, they just exist. I don't see how we can start assigning values or declaring the chapter tactics restrictive or useless when they're bonuses. Some of them don't even restrict the bonuses to specific units.
Red Corsair wrote:Frankly the whole mixing SCs thing was something that's always bothered me. "I'm playing Imperial Fists, but I brought Telion." Very few people picked these guys for their potential fluffy options, they picked them for the mechanics they gave the army. Now the SCs are tied to their chapter traits, and you can still do count as with those chapters successors but we're not looking at seeing some of the abuse of the last edition and I'm excited about that.
Besides, these restrictions are actually good for the codex. They keep it from being the "OP" mess that some people were claiming it'd turn into.
First off, in what world was it ever been broken for someone to field Telion in IF? It's annoying for some players, myself included, that UM get 6 named characters while IH get 0. According to you it's not kosher for someone to play an IH successor unless using IH CT yet if there is a character in their fluff that is perfectly represented by another SC their outta luck. Sorry this is just silly and in case you missed it, it's not just restrictive to players mechanically but it ties their hands from a fluff and flavor standpoint. I'd also love an example of what combo of SC's would suddenly be broken?
Tau can bring Farsight and Shadowsun without allying which makes 0 sense and is by far more gamey then any combo SM SC's can bring from what I have read but again apparently a home brew chapter boasting Shrike and Telion counts as would be completely meta changing
Telion is not an example of something broken, but he is an example of a model I've seen in just about every Marine army.
You know why we have 6 UM characters? Because we inherited them through the editions. Don't complain to me about it because the only character my chapter gets is a FW option that doesn't even get a fitting model. It's funny you complain about the lack of an Iron Hands character though as I've seen a number of Iron Hands players say they're glad they didn't get stuck with one because to use him they'd have to play whatever clan he's from. 10 different Company-Clans 10 different Chapter Master equivilents would need to be available to "properly" represent them. Maybe when their supplement rolls around we'll see an option for a Ven Dread to be a Warlord. That'd be a neat option.
By the very rules you're SOL when it comes to mixing those characters, so frankly if you don't like it you can write a letter to Cruddace instead of complaining to me. I never liked the whole mixing SCs because too many people did it to game the system. And frankly, even if you don't like it I'm glad that it's a lot more restricted at least. Want to bring Lysander along to have a merry adventure with Vulkan? Well there goes your allies slots.
Like I said before, I'm not against people having their fun, I'm against people who game the system for mechanical advantages. I'm glad their actually trying to limit it somewhat and that these perks don't require you to spend points or have specific SCs to use them. This is not a "Holier-than-Thou" position I'm taking here, it's just me stating how I choose to spend my time playing the game. I just won't play people who game the system so they can more efficiently beat my head in at the table. That is not fun to me. And that was all my original statement was about.
Now if you want to respond some more, that's fine, but I'm not going to spend all my time debating with you on how I should view the game or choose to have my fun. It's silly, pointless and nothing you state is going to change my mind.
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Post by: battlematt
I play Hawk Lord's a successor chapter to the raven guard. So the raven guard rules will apply to my army now. Having to play as a successor chapter and not being able to take ultra, Imperial fist or salamanders named HQ's is, to me a good thing. I for one think that this is good news for the hobby. I hope that this encourages people to paint and model their force with forethought to whom the chapter is. This will be a real headache to folks who haven't given any thought to what home brew force they are fielding. New codex's change the game, that is a simple and frustrating truth. I look forward to playing at a tournament and looking at my marine opponent and knowing what they are and how they work.
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Post by: mwnciboo
 centuryslayer wrote:I actually like the look of the Centurions... I'll be damned! :0 they'd look super cool in an Iron hands army, torn and with some yellow/black stripes on, giving them a heavy workload feel. still the power armorception going on is a bit...wierd
hmmm not so sure...Yellow and Black Industrial Stripes is more Iron Warriors than Iron Hands. I don't like the Centurions, it looks like a different Range from a different model producer the only recognisable pieces are the Weapons and the Helmet, the rest of them (Body, feet, legs arms, chest and hands) just looks wrong and not 40k or even SM. The SM aesthetic is very set, to radically alter it now and say "These are Bigger than Termies" is a retcon too far. Oh and Standby for some serious Kick-ass SM Scout units zipping across the board in their new DEDICATED TRANSPORT the Landspeeder Storm!!! Time to dick the Eldar at their own Skimming transport games! Would have liked to have seen some more Scout Options rather than Centurions, imagine Mini Scout Devastator Squads (e.g 10 Man Squad with 4 HW's with reduced BS but reduced cost? What about Special Weapons Squads, 3 Flamers in a Scout Squad led by a Sgt with a Combi-flamer!) There were some simple mechanics changes they could have done rather than bring these damn centurions in.
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Post by: davou
ClockworkZion wrote:
If someone I knew came up to me and asked for a game then mentioned he was going to use different chapter tactics for a change of pace, I'd probably be alright with that. But if the same guy was constantly tailoring his list and tactics to use against me or other players based on what he was playing against I wouldn't play him. It's the second kind of player I don't want to play against because I don't find him fun to play.
How is taking another tactic any different than selecting or not selecting another unit/option from any dex? Its an option in the codex, they should be free to take or not take any of them without moral reproach.
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Post by: Hedgehog
Vaktathi wrote:So, did anyone else notice the rumors for the stalker at slightly cheaper than the price of a current Hydra with twice the number of shots and better side armor+ split fire?
However the Hydra is twin-linked, which means it actually causes more hits against flyers even with a lower BS. This also has the effect of practically doubling its chance of hitting non-flying targets compared to the Stalker. It also has a longer range, and comes in squadrons, taking fewer HS slots up for more AA firepower. ClockworkZion, I think you're confusing auxiliary grenade launchers and Astartes grenade launchers Characters use the first, scout bikes use the second, and the auxiliary ones are pretty useless at the moment...
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Post by: ClockworkZion
davou wrote:ClockworkZion wrote:
If someone I knew came up to me and asked for a game then mentioned he was going to use different chapter tactics for a change of pace, I'd probably be alright with that. But if the same guy was constantly tailoring his list and tactics to use against me or other players based on what he was playing against I wouldn't play him. It's the second kind of player I don't want to play against because I don't find him fun to play.
How is taking another tactic any different than selecting or not selecting another unit/option from any dex? Its an option in the codex, they should be free to take or not take any of them without moral reproach.
One of those players I enjoy playing against, the other I don't. I never assigned morals to anything, just a level of fun I have playing with different types of people. I don't have fun with the guys who are trying to squeeze out every ounce of advantage by constantly shifting about and switching things up to whatever is the most mathematically powerful rule set to use at that particular moment.
I have a lot more fun playing against the person who chooses their army with considerable thought and masters it. The kind of player who can table you with just Tactical Marines because he knows how to use them well not because they're actually Blood Angels ASM wearing Ultramarine colors.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Hedgehog wrote:ClockworkZion, I think you're confusing auxiliary grenade launchers and Astartes grenade launchers Characters use the first, scout bikes use the second, and the auxiliary ones are pretty useless at the moment...
Honestly, I just might be. I've been playing Sisters since 2010 and am only now going back to Marines so I apologize about that!
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Post by: EmperorsChosen
Very excited about this, finally an Imperial Fist section! Yay.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Codex writing doesn't work that way.
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Post by: mwnciboo
Codex Writing doesn't seem to work Period.
It's more like a Arms Race, each codex released raises the ante and the next one needs to trump the last and progressively break the current edition of the rules.
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Post by: tvih
mwnciboo wrote:Codex Writing doesn't seem to work Period.
It's more like a Arms Race, each codex released raises the ante and the next one needs to trump the last and progressively break the current edition of the rules.
Yeah, it's quite silly. CSM and DA seemed to do away with power creep to a point, bar the stupid Faildrake I guess, but then they lost their marbles again and went off the deep end with Tau and especially Eldar
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Post by: ClockworkZion
It's a collective studio effort headed primarily one person. I'm willing to bet they collectively brainstorm ideas but one person does the writing to actually implement those ideas. For example, Kelly wrote the Eldar book, but the idea for Battle Focus actually came from Ward.
EDIT: Oh, and I'm pretty sure it's next to impossible to "sneak" anything in like that.
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