bullyboy wrote: Eldar are specialists.......yes, all of their aspects got cool stuff, the bikes are great etc etc. A player is going to have to choose what to take, he can't have everything.
What exactly are jetbikes specialized against again?
So farseers got better and still remain too inexpensive.
So in a council of 1-3 warlocks to make it cheap, the farseer can manifest powers on a 3+ using one less die with that artifact (WC 1 invisibility anyone) and gets to reroll one power a turn...a TURN! So he can reliably cast invisibility using one die now (3+ with reroll on 1 die)... Yea good job Fail Kelly.
Red Corsair wrote: So farseers got better and still remain too inexpensive.
So in a council of 1-3 warlocks to make it cheap, the farseer can manifest powers on a 3+ using one less die with that artifact (WC 1 invisibility anyone) and gets to reroll one power a turn...a TURN! So he can reliably cast invisibility using one die now (3+ with reroll on 1 die)... Yea good job Fail Kelly.
Let's see the rule first... it may be that you have to nominate one psyker's own power list to use the council ability. Thus, if you do, you don't get to use the other psyker's power. But, eh... yeah, even then, that's pretty good.
Red Corsair wrote: So farseers got better and still remain too inexpensive.
So in a council of 1-3 warlocks to make it cheap, the farseer can manifest powers on a 3+ using one less die with that artifact (WC 1 invisibility anyone) and gets to reroll one power a turn...a TURN! So he can reliably cast invisibility using one die now (3+ with reroll on 1 die)... Yea good job Fail Kelly.
Let's see the rule first... it may be that you have to nominate one psyker's own power list to use the council ability. Thus, if you do, you don't get to use the other psyker's power. But, eh... yeah, even then, that's pretty good.
12" Scout, 12" movement, turbo boost 24" and then Tankshock with his rule... in first turn. (may have to target an Eldar vehicle first in order for that to work... then multicharge whenever possible).
Beardy... but effective.
Just one idea to counter all them jetbikes. (not a hard counter by any means, but it's something).
Chad Warden wrote: "Eldar are specialists" is up there with "Eldar are fragile", "Eldar are expensive" "Eldar are hard to play". Just myths people use to justify OP.
Guardians are generalists IIRC. The statement is true for the aspects though, and it does appear they did them right, though one I didn't see was the Crimson Hunter Aspect.
12" Scout, 12" movement, turbo boost 24" and then Tankshock with his rule... in first turn. (may have to target an Eldar vehicle first in order for that to work... then multicharge whenever possible).
Beardy... but effective.
Just one idea to counter all them jetbikes. (not a hard counter by any means, but it's something).
can't assault after scout moves. Moronic restrictions to assault are what makes these shooty lists almost uncounterable.
12" Scout, 12" movement, turbo boost 24" and then Tankshock with his rule... in first turn. (may have to target an Eldar vehicle first in order for that to work... then multicharge whenever possible).
Beardy... but effective.
Just one idea to counter all them jetbikes. (not a hard counter by any means, but it's something).
What are you talking about. Zhadsnark has a 6 up armor save. How is one tankshock by one T6 6+ model going to counter jetbikes?
I really wanna know if the WArhosts ability of always run 6" applies to all squads in it or just Guardians, because if it's all squads that's kind of bonkers.
12" Scout, 12" movement, turbo boost 24" and then Tankshock with his rule... in first turn. (may have to target an Eldar vehicle first in order for that to work... then multicharge whenever possible).
Beardy... but effective.
Just one idea to counter all them jetbikes. (not a hard counter by any means, but it's something).
can't assault after scout moves. Moronic restrictions to assault are what makes these shooty lists almost uncounterable.
Zhardsnrak has special rule that he can as he's not actually declaring assault (to bypass that "no assault after scout moves" restriction... hence, my beardy comment):
Spoiler:
Da Beast
When Turbo Boosting, Zhadsnark may move up to 24" rather than the usual 12". In addition, at the beginning of any Turbo Boost move he may declare that he will Tank Shock. When making a Tank Shock move Zhadsnark is treated as though he was a vehicle with the Tank type and the Tank Shock is carried out normally, however he must move at least 12". If an enemy model declares a Death or Glory attack on Zhadsnark whilst he is Tank Shocking then it inflicts a single automatic hit with one weapon (either shooting or close combat). Resolve this hit normally. If Zhadsnark is wounded (whether or not he makes a save), he becomes locked in combat with the unit and is placed in base contact with the model that inflicted the wound, and the Tank Shock ends. If the hit fails to wound Zhadsnark then the model that attempted the Death or Glory attack is removed as a casualty (regardless of wounds or save
The kicker there is that the jetbike can decide not to declare Death or Glory... which would leave Zhardsnark's unit out in the open, although, he's unit would be rocking 2+ coversave at that point. The jetbike need to decide if they're going to shoot and assault Zhardsnark's unit (not a good idea), or move far away as possible , but just within range to shoot at them. That movement, may expose them to the rest of the Ork's army. However, if Zhardsnark's unit targets an Eldar vehicle first using that move, I think he'd be in base-to-base in auto-assault... then, multicharge if other units in range.
12" Scout, 12" movement, turbo boost 24" and then Tankshock with his rule... in first turn. (may have to target an Eldar vehicle first in order for that to work... then multicharge whenever possible).
Beardy... but effective.
Just one idea to counter all them jetbikes. (not a hard counter by any means, but it's something).
What are you talking about. Zhadsnark has a 6 up armor save. How is one tankshock by one T6 6+ model going to counter jetbikes?
By getting into combat... Zhadsnark gives zero feths about his armours save against puny eldars in combat.
TedNugent wrote: He only gets in combat if they decide to perform a death or glory attack in response to his tank shock.
Right*... if they don't, then what? You've got a large biker squad in your midst rocking 2+ jink saves, T5, having FnP if a painboy is there. Better hope you have Dark Reapers. (ignores jink if I'm not mistaken).
You'd have to focus the majority of your firepower to get rid of that unit. And that's a good thing for orks.
I don't wanna turn this into a Theoryhammer/YMDC discussion, but the point I was trying to elucidate is that it isn't all doom & gloom.
Maybe I just like a challenge.
*at that point, hope they pass LD... or they may run off the board!
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I've flipped through a bunch of pages from here and the Warseer thread and I can't find it... what are the leaked Wraithguard and D-weapon rules?
D-Scythe. - Flamer Strength D (but -1 on the D-Weapon table).
Hvy D-Scythe - Strength D Blast weapon (but -1 on the D-Weapon table)
Wraithcannon - 12" Strength D. Default weapon of Wraithguard
Hvy Wraithcannon - 36" Strength D. Default weapon of Wraithknight.
5 Wraithguard (with Wraithcannons) for 160 pts.
1 Wraithknight (with Hvy. Wraithcannons) for 295 pts.
Sorry if there're mistakes, but mostly this should be it.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I've flipped through a bunch of pages from here and the Warseer thread and I can't find it... what are the leaked Wraithguard and D-weapon rules?
D-Scythe. - Flamer Strength D (but -1 on the D-Weapon table).
Hvy D-Scythe - Strength D Blast weapon (but -1 on the D-Weapon table)
Wraithcannon - 12" Strength D. Default weapon of Wraithguard
Hvy Wraithcannon - 36" Strength D. Default weapon of Wraithknight.
5 Wraithguard (with Wraithcannons) for 160 pts.
1 Wraithknight (with Hvy. Wraithcannons) for 295 pts.
Sorry if there're mistakes, but mostly this should be it.
No seriously does the Warhost provide all models in it a 6" move because if Aspects kept Battle Focus then they turned the army into a Quasi Beast army.
TedNugent wrote: He only gets in combat if they decide to perform a death or glory attack in response to his tank shock.
Right*... if they don't, then what? You've got a large biker squad in your midst rocking 2+ jink saves, T5, having FnP if a painboy is there. Better hope you have Dark Reapers. (ignores jink if I'm not mistaken).
You'd have to focus the majority of your firepower to get rid of that unit. And that's a good thing for orks.
I don't wanna turn this into a Theoryhammer/YMDC discussion, but the point I was trying to elucidate is that it isn't all doom & gloom.
Maybe I just like a challenge.
*at that point, hope they pass LD... or they may run off the board!
How do you have a 2+ biker squad performing a tank shock? Where does it say you can do that?
Page 166 under Independent Character
"Special Rules -
When an independent Character joins a unit, it migh have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit."
Da Beast
When Turbo Boosting, Zhadsnark may move up to
24" rather than the usual 12". In addition, at the
beginning of any Turbo Boost move he may declare that
he will Tank Shock. When making a Tank Shock move
Zhadsnark is treated as though he was a vehicle with the
Tank type and the Tank Shock is carried out normally,
however he must move at least 12". If an enemy model
declares a Death or Glory attack on Zhadsnark whilst
he is Tank Shocking then it inflicts a single automatic
hit with one weapon (either shooting or close combat).
Resolve this hit normally. If Zhadsnark is wounded
(whether or not he makes a save), he becomes locked in
combat with the unit and is placed in base contact with
the model that inflicted the wound, and the Tank Shock
ends. If the hit fails to wound Zhadsnark then the model
that attempted the Death or Glory attack is removed as
a casualty (regardless of wounds or saves of any kind)
and Zhadsnark continues to move.
^ Doesn't say anything about the unit he's a part of. It says specifically that Zhadsnark can elect to make a 24" turbo boost and perform a tank shock as described above.
I don't see how you have the entire unit of warbikers performing a 24" turbo boost and a tank shock as this is not part of their special rules and nothing in the content of the rule as written above on page 17 confers that rule upon the unit he's a part of.
Asurmen (220)
4++ (3++ if fighting in a challenge). Gets 1D3 Warlord traits. Sword is +1S, AP2, Mastercrafterd. For each wound take a Ld test. If failed model dies.
Jain Zar (200)
When fighting in a challange, Jain Zar chooses a weapon of is opponent. He may not use this weapon. If done so, Jain Zar has -1A. Enemy models at +6" get -5 to WS (MÃnimum 1). Her sword is AP2, Shred.
Karandras (200)
When arriving from reserves can choose any border. His mandiblaster ignores ALL saves.
Fuegan (220)
He gets +1S and +1A for each lost wound.
Baharroth (170)
When DS all units at 6" are treated as hit by a weapon with the Blind SR.
Maugan Ra (195)
Can fire his Maugetar twice per turn (That means 8 S6 Rending shots). Maugetar has an alternative profile: Assault 1, S1, Poison 2+. If one model dies, put 5" marker. All models under the template get a S5 AP4 hit.
On top of that, they have as well the rules listed for their Aspects.
so this is all GWs doing right? Not that I'm defending them....I know they produce crap rules, I'm not deluded otherwise. However, if the player base, mister WAAC, mister TFG, etc didn't always try to spam everything that might be slightly unbalanced, star this, star that, then things would be just fine. Anybody really think that 3 jetbikes with shuricannons is that bad? What about deppstriking Falcons with 5 dragons, and 2x5 banshees in the other 2? No...players have to spam, and so my sympathy is pretty minimal.
I know what this game is, and I know what the general player base is like (at least at stores) and so I am content to play in my group that doesn't have to worry about this stuff.
Hollismason wrote: Your anecdotal experience is not universal and cannot be applied everywhere.
agreed, and I know that people often have no choice but to play pick up games, or that people enjoy tournaments, but there's no point sticking one's head in the sand. we all should know by now exactly what GW does, year in year out, why are people surprised? Yes I play Eldar, but I also have DAs so according to this forum I now have armies on both ends of the spectrum, but i will gladly play both without complaints. I don't come to GW for their rules, I come for the nice models and a chance to throw a few dice with some buddies.
TedNugent wrote: He only gets in combat if they decide to perform a death or glory attack in response to his tank shock.
Right*... if they don't, then what? You've got a large biker squad in your midst rocking 2+ jink saves, T5, having FnP if a painboy is there. Better hope you have Dark Reapers. (ignores jink if I'm not mistaken).
You'd have to focus the majority of your firepower to get rid of that unit. And that's a good thing for orks.
I don't wanna turn this into a Theoryhammer/YMDC discussion, but the point I was trying to elucidate is that it isn't all doom & gloom.
Maybe I just like a challenge.
*at that point, hope they pass LD... or they may run off the board!
How do you have a 2+ biker squad performing a tank shock? Where does it say you can do that?
Ork Warbikers gets +1 to jink when flatting out. So, jinking Warbikers get 3+ jink save flatting out. Throw in Zhardy, he has skilled rider witch confers to unit, thus warbikers are getting the 2+ (although Zhardy get 3+ only since "Da Beast" isn't an Ork warbiker).
Spoiler:
Page 166 under Independent Character
"Special Rules -
When an independent Character joins a unit, it migh have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit."
Da Beast
When Turbo Boosting, Zhadsnark may move up to
24" rather than the usual 12". In addition, at the
beginning of any Turbo Boost move he may declare that
he will Tank Shock. When making a Tank Shock move
Zhadsnark is treated as though he was a vehicle with the
Tank type and the Tank Shock is carried out normally,
however he must move at least 12". If an enemy model
declares a Death or Glory attack on Zhadsnark whilst
he is Tank Shocking then it inflicts a single automatic
hit with one weapon (either shooting or close combat).
Resolve this hit normally. If Zhadsnark is wounded
(whether or not he makes a save), he becomes locked in
combat with the unit and is placed in base contact with
the model that inflicted the wound, and the Tank Shock
ends. If the hit fails to wound Zhadsnark then the model
that attempted the Death or Glory attack is removed as
a casualty (regardless of wounds or saves of any kind)
and Zhadsnark continues to move.
^ Doesn't say anything about the unit he's a part of. It says specifically that Zhadsnark can elect to make a 24" turbo boost and perform a tank shock as described above.
I don't see how you have the entire unit of warbikers performing a 24" turbo boost and a tank shock as this is not part of their special rules and nothing in the content of the rule as written above on page 17 confers that rule upon the unit he's a part of.
You can conga line, as long as all models are within 2"... not as hard as you think it is. Zhardy's turbo has to move at least 12", so in order to make contact and be with unit coherency, he can turbo 14".
I've pulled this off a few times... but, alas no one has elected to Death or Glory.
PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote: I keep coming back to see more rumors and I keep seeing people complaining. I literally have to dredge through the whining to find stuff from the book...
If you're just looking for information it does kind of suck to wade through a bunch of posts to look for new updates.
Some suggestions I can make if it really is too much would be to wait for one of the various 40k blogs to post a summary, or the OP to update, or check the source of the rumours themselves over at Warseer.
Or find the one person actually posting the information and click "Filter Thread", oh snap a whole thread of useful information and very little pointless back and forth. So glad I found it when the Astra Militarum info was coming out.
Also it looks like Shining Spears' laser lances aren't S6 in combat, they're strength X 2, AP3. Does anyone know if they still have that crumby impact rule? Or what their AP is in subsequent rounds?
the main leaker on warseer has posted pictures of themselves with the codex so certainly has it, and I believe had one of the other recent ones (necrons?) first too and all their leaks from that were right
so it seems pretty much certain bar the odd typo or a significant bit in an odd place that's been missed so far
Each Farseer gets to reroll one psychic power per turn, ghosthelms are the same, spirit stones still the same, harnesses on 3+, and same point cost as before. Thankfully no summoning, but still...
so the consensus is that people will take a big Farseer/warlock council for pyschic powers, 30-40 jetbikes with scatterlasers, 1 wraithguard unit with an allied contingent featuring Archon with WWP, 3 units Fire Dragons in 3 falcons, a wraithknight, did I miss anything? So.....how many points are we playing?
bullyboy wrote: so the consensus is that people will take a big Farseer/warlock council for pyschic powers, 30-40 jetbikes with scatterlasers, 1 wraithguard unit with an allied contingent featuring Archon with WP, 3 units Fire Dragons in 3 falcons, a wraithknight, did I miss anything? So.....how many points are we playing?
You don't need it all to have a really strong army, that's the thing.
Sorcerers re-roll every power every time. Where's your fauxtrage for that?
Again you look silly using awful comparisons. Yes, Chaos SM have spell familiars, which were written for an entirely different psychic mechanic and is a dated hold over. This was a conscious decision with 7th ed game design that also didn't even consider the other perks it would stack with I am sure.
Again, try harder.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thud wrote: That Seer Council formation is ridiculously good.
Each Farseer gets to reroll one psychic power per turn, ghosthelms are the same, spirit stones still the same, harnesses on 3+, and same point cost as before. Thankfully no summoning, but still...
You forgot the relic that reduces warp charge by 1. So fortune/invisibility/prescience on one die needing a 3+ with reroll. Lets hope the counsel got pricier.
I may need to add that if the Wraithknight is 295 point it seems pretty good value for what it can (apparently) do.
That said, I think the thing needed to be buffed. Sure people were using it in its current form already, but it was mostly because the Eldar army really needed such a thing to counter things it can't otherwise fight, but the fact that nobody allied Wraithknights into other armies spoke volumes about how points effective it was. Riptides on the other hand are often allied into forces.
So if we hypothetically would say that it could cost 240 with the previous S10 upgraded to S D, the extra 55 points are coming from the new poison resistance, feel no pain and stomp attacks. What else is it getting? If there's not much else, then 295 points should be pretty balanced as far as the 'good stuff' in 40K usually goes. If it's getting additional wounds or other stat increases too then it might be undercosted.
So if we hypothetically would say that it could cost 240 with the previous S10 upgraded to S D, the extra 55 points are coming from the new poison resistance, feel no pain and stomp attacks. What else is it getting? If there's not much else, then 295 points should be pretty balanced as far as the 'good stuff' in 40K usually goes.
Yep my Astra Militarum will take out that toughness 8, 6 wound monster with....yeah nothing that costs 300pts or less for sure. Very much not a fan of that thing. Will still try but I know I would have to shoot my whole army at it and it would take multiple turnsif ever to kill it.
Sorcerers re-roll every power every time. Where's your fauxtrage for that?
Again you look silly using awful comparisons. Yes, Chaos SM have spell familiars, which were written for an entirely different psychic mechanic and is a dated hold over. This was a conscious decision with 7th ed game design that also didn't even consider the other perks it would stack with I am sure.
Again, try harder.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thud wrote: That Seer Council formation is ridiculously good.
Each Farseer gets to reroll one psychic power per turn, ghosthelms are the same, spirit stones still the same, harnesses on 3+, and same point cost as before. Thankfully no summoning, but still...
You forgot the relic that reduces warp charge by 1. So fortune/invisibility/prescience on one die needing a 3+ with reroll. Lets hope the counsel got pricier.
I didn't, that's the spirit stones (of anathkkhdkskd-whatever).
When I updated the V.D.R. I figured out quite a bit in regards to pricing. For example, adding strD to a str10 ranged weapon costs 30 points per shot. So simply giving the wraithknight strD in that sense would put him at 300 points (minus whatever the original points to have the old distortion rule would have been). To make a vehicle superheavy, it normally costs around 100 points ( for the first 6hp, 100 for every three after that) plus survivability stats. The wraithknight being immune to instant death, resistant to poison/snipers, gaining stomp and feel no pain should add 100 points to the beast as well. I am hoping it was a typo or a slipup on the part of the original info leak and it is really 395...
Therion wrote: I may need to add that if the Wraithknight is 295 point it seems pretty good value for what it can (apparently) do.
That said, I think the thing needed to be buffed. Sure people were using it in its current form already, but it was mostly because the Eldar army really needed such a thing to counter things it can't otherwise fight, but the fact that nobody allied Wraithknights into other armies spoke volumes about how points effective it was. Riptides on the other hand are often allied into forces.
So if we hypothetically would say that it could cost 240 with the previous S10 upgraded to S D, the extra 55 points are coming from the new poison resistance, feel no pain and stomp attacks. What else is it getting? If there's not much else, then 295 points should be pretty balanced as far as the 'good stuff' in 40K usually goes. If it's getting additional wounds or other stat increases too then it might be undercosted.
If 295 is balanced for the new Wraith knight , the morkanaught and Gorkanaught need a serious point reduction the morkanaught is 310...... and can get taken out by a single S8 AP2 shot.
bullyboy wrote: so this is all GWs doing right? Not that I'm defending them....I know they produce crap rules, I'm not deluded otherwise. However, if the player base, mister WAAC, mister TFG, etc didn't always try to spam everything that might be slightly unbalanced, star this, star that, then things would be just fine. Anybody really think that 3 jetbikes with shuricannons is that bad? What about deppstriking Falcons with 5 dragons, and 2x5 banshees in the other 2? No...players have to spam, and so my sympathy is pretty minimal.
I know what this game is, and I know what the general player base is like (at least at stores) and so I am content to play in my group that doesn't have to worry about this stuff.
The thing is, where's the boundary? How many jetbikes / wraithguard can you field before you become TFG by default?
If something was meant to be balanced unless spammed, then maybe playtest to determine what that limit is, then cap things at that number? It's a system that's unofficially in place anyway--there's little difference between "You can't take this many." and "You can take this many, but won't be able to find an opponent."
Guardiens can threaten any non vehicle unit in the game, yes they are squishy but nowhere near a "bad" unit at all. With the new formations and getting a free gun platform they have gotten better from prev and they were already decent before.
Therion wrote: I may need to add that if the Wraithknight is 295 point it seems pretty good value for what it can (apparently) do.
That said, I think the thing needed to be buffed. Sure people were using it in its current form already, but it was mostly because the Eldar army really needed such a thing to counter things it can't otherwise fight, but the fact that nobody allied Wraithknights into other armies spoke volumes about how points effective it was. Riptides on the other hand are often allied into forces.
So if we hypothetically would say that it could cost ith the previous S10 upgraded to S D, the extra 55 points are coming from the new poison resistance, feel no pain and stomp attacks. What else is it getting? If there's not much else, then 295 points should be pretty balanced as far as the 'good stuff' in 40K usually goes. If it's getting additional wounds or other stat increases too then it might be undercosted.
They aren't you getting charged next turn because you just run them backwards to max range. You take a horde a bunch and use guide on them to bladestorm to death in both shooting and overwatch. Guardians are a solid troop choice.
Man the nerdrage is just comincal in this thread. The codex isn't even out yet and all the "leaks" are about as credible as anything else in the internet. One big laugh until I have the book in my hands...
I suspect that most of the 40k hobbyists out ther aren't tournament players - most players are playing friendly games either in their homes or at their FLGS. I've never once played a game where the codex of either player totally dictacted the outcome of the game, and I've been playing for a long time. If you you and your mates can't work out rules that both of you enjoy than this game simply isn't for you. Go play some video game that will just ding you for a few microtransactions and call you a winner - you'll save a lot of time and money that way.
I have a Space Marine army that's almost never won a single game, a CSM force (with NO turkey) that wins nearly every time, and an Eldar force that has a pretty evenly split win/loss ratio.
Not one of my lists would hold up to a tournament, but I don't care. My priority is this little thing called ... fun.
When DE got their codex at the end of 5th Ed it was the most absurdly "OP" book in the game at the time. I didn't stop playing with him - we just worked gak out. Like adults. I started toying around with my lists to be more entertaining. "wouldn't it by funny if..." became the starting point for most of armies.
I don't know if most players are just REALLY gakky at the game and can "only" win if they have some monsterously OP gimmick in their army to rely on or exploit - or if this community really is just a bunch of WAAC bottom feeders whose only sense of self worth comes from victory in a miniature wargame.
My only advice is to learn to have some damn fun. Lose a few games and roll with it. The only reason you feel the game is ruined by every new codex is because you bought to heavily into the newest codex of your own army. You min-max your lists to take advantage of the falvor of the month unit and laugh your ass off when you win, but when the next flavor of the month comes out you QQ and blame GW for ruining your fun. If you could learn to make lists that are FUN you'd never have that problem.
Take some time off of QQing here and go adjust your lists. Stop trying to rely on the same dry old tactics that 'promised' a win 6 months ago and adapt for God's sake.
En Excelsis wrote: Man the nerdrage is just comincal in this thread. The codex isn't even out yet and all the "leaks" are about as credible as anything else in the internet. One big laugh until I have the book in my hands...
You should have saved all the time sitting on your high horse to go back and see that (a) someone has the codex and (b) everything that's been "rumored" (stupid thing to say since it came out of the White Dwarf) was proved correct.
But hey, enjoy spending your time insulting strangers on the internet, whatever floats your boat.
Seriously, how many more times will someone with a superiority complex come in half cocked with zero facts only to plant their foot firmly in their mouth in the first sentence.
Also had a chuckle that he thought DE were ever remotely OP.
En Excelsis wrote: Man the nerdrage is just comincal in this thread. The codex isn't even out yet and all the "leaks" are about as credible as anything else in the internet. One big laugh until I have the book in my hands...
So, when you have the book in your hands and they all turn out to be correct, are we gonna get an eating crow thread?
There was a guy posting pictures of the codex and answering questions on Warseer if you're interested. It's all pretty "out" at this point.
Take some time off of QQing here and go adjust your lists. Stop trying to rely on the same dry old tactics that 'promised' a win 6 months ago and adapt for God's sake.
Ah, the old "L2P" response, classic fallacious exit.
Therion wrote: I may need to add that if the Wraithknight is 295 point it seems pretty good value for what it can (apparently) do.
That said, I think the thing needed to be buffed. Sure people were using it in its current form already, but it was mostly because the Eldar army really needed such a thing to counter things it can't otherwise fight, but the fact that nobody allied Wraithknights into other armies spoke volumes about how points effective it was. Riptides on the other hand are often allied into forces.
So if we hypothetically would say that it could cost 240 with the previous S10 upgraded to S D, the extra 55 points are coming from the new poison resistance, feel no pain and stomp attacks. What else is it getting? If there's not much else, then 295 points should be pretty balanced as far as the 'good stuff' in 40K usually goes. If it's getting additional wounds or other stat increases too then it might be undercosted.
If 295 is balanced for the new Wraith knight , the morkanaught and Gorkanaught need a serious point reduction the morkanaught is 310...... and can get taken out by a single S8 AP2 shot.
Like I said I'm not sure how many wounds the new Wraithknight has, but if 295 points is the old Wraithknight + the 2 S10 distort guns became S D, and it got FNP and stomps and nothing else, then yes I don't think 295 points is terrible at all. Sure it could be 305 or 315 or whatever but it's not in the realm of outrageous by any means. The anti-tank difference between S10 distort and S D isn't that big, and it can't have the strength D sword and the strength D cannons simultaneously. Overall, I benchmark it against the ion accelerating Riptide.
I don't like new units to be overpriced or underpowered just because there are units in other codices that suck also. Your Ork examples certainly need to be buffed. We are in agreement. You wouldn't use them even if the Wraithknight and Riptide sucked, so what's the point of making the Wraithknight suck? Let's just make the Ork walkers better.
I'm just perfectly fine with every codex getting very powerful units like Tomb Blades, Wraiths, Decurion rules, new Eldar Formations, economical S D and all that stuff, as long as we keep going and give similar and thematically fitting stuff to every codex, not just a couple ones at random intervals.
Let's just hope that the Necrons and Eldar are now an imaginative trend, and the next main army will get a similar treatment. Then all is well in due time.
Like I said I'm not sure how many wounds the new Wraithknight has, but if 295 points is the old Wraithknight + the 2 S10 distort guns became S D, and it got FNP and stomps and nothing else, then yes I don't think 295 points is terrible at all. Sure it could be 305 or 315 or whatever but it's not in the realm of outrageous by any means. I benchmark it against the ion accelerating Riptide.
Nothing in the game is so aggressively pointed. It gains Stomp, Feel No Pain, DStr CC or Ranged, relative immunity to Instant Death and Poison. Compare it to any other Gargantuan Creature. Nothing comes close to it's strength for the cost. In fact, is there a cheaper Gargantuan that even exists in the game?
I'm just perfectly fine with every codex getting very powerful units like Tomb Blades, Wraiths, Decurion rules, new Eldar Formations, economical S D and all that stuff, as long as we keep going and give similar and thematically fitting stuff to every codex, not just a couple ones at random intervals.
Let's just hope that the Necrons and Eldar are now an imaginative trend, and the next main army will get a similar treatment. Then all is well in due time.
This will probably be an unpopular opinion, but I agree.
Given GW doesn't do proper "patching" going back to slight power-creep inflation is sadly the best thing that can happen after hyper-inflation. I'm not using those terms by accident either, I see power-creep like inflation, it's best when it's small and controlled. When it hyper-inflates or is constantly deflating and inflating at high rates is when things go bad imo.
People with older codices do get screwed, but they get screwed regardless.
The other alternative is of course, blow the whole thing up and start fresh.
Like I said I'm not sure how many wounds the new Wraithknight has, but if 295 points is the old Wraithknight + the 2 S10 distort guns became S D, and it got FNP and stomps and nothing else, then yes I don't think 295 points is terrible at all. Sure it could be 305 or 315 or whatever but it's not in the realm of outrageous by any means. I benchmark it against the ion accelerating Riptide.
Nothing in the game is so aggressively pointed. It gains Stomp, Feel No Pain, DStr CC or Ranged, relative immunity to Instant Death and Poison. Compare it to any other Gargantuan Creature. Nothing comes close to it's strength for the cost. In fact, is there a cheaper Gargantuan that even exists in the game?
Feel No Pain is worth 30 points. Maybe even 50 on a model like this. How much do you think the stomp attacks are worth? 30? Can't be 50. The poison attribute doesn't come in effect in most games, against Dark Eldar it's certainly very valuable, but overall about 20 points. It was already very immune to instant death. Now, strength D instead of S10 distort? Strength D on its own sounds great, but vs S10 AP2 distort? 20 points? 30? Look how the strength D is priced on other Eldar models -- It doesn't cost much now according to GW.
Overall you got about 110 points of upgrades on the old Wraithknight, but the price of the model went up only 55 points. I'd say the old model was about 20 points overpriced, some could even argue 30, but for argument's sake I'll go with 20. Now we got 35 points of free upgrades. Then I add the power creep inflation that's clearly present in the game if we look at pretty much any unit in the Necron codex and there's your missing 35 points.
Of course you can disagree with just about everything I said above, but that's the way I look at it. The Wraithknight clearly isn't the biggest offender in the new book. I think the smaller units gaining free very powerful upgrades are much bigger issues to complain about.
Like I said I'm not sure how many wounds the new Wraithknight has, but if 295 points is the old Wraithknight + the 2 S10 distort guns became S D, and it got FNP and stomps and nothing else, then yes I don't think 295 points is terrible at all. Sure it could be 305 or 315 or whatever but it's not in the realm of outrageous by any means. I benchmark it against the ion accelerating Riptide.
Nothing in the game is so aggressively pointed. It gains Stomp, Feel No Pain, DStr CC or Ranged, relative immunity to Instant Death and Poison. Compare it to any other Gargantuan Creature. Nothing comes close to it's strength for the cost. In fact, is there a cheaper Gargantuan that even exists in the game?
I don't think so.
LIkewise, if a 295pt Wraithknight is "fair", why am I paying 575pts for a classically equipped Baneblade, 300-400pts for Macharius tanks, and 250-320pts for Malcador variants?
For that matter, why bother with other Eldar superhevies like a Scorpion at 500pts?
Therion wrote:
Feel No Pain is worth 30 points. How much do you think the stomp attacks are worth? 30? Can't be 50
FNP on a T8 W6 GC is worth *WAY* more than 30pts. Stomp attacks can easily be worth 50pts.
. The poison attribute doesn't come in effect in most games, against Dark Eldar it's certainly valuable, overall about 20 points. It was already very immune to instant death. Now, strength D instead of S10 distort? Strength D on its own sounds great, but vs S10 AP2 distort? 20 points? 30? Look how the strength D is priced on other Eldar models -- It doesn't cost much now according to GW.
Which doesn't necessarily mean that's what it's actually worth. That's an entire order of magnitude different level of firepower.
Overall you got about 100 points of upgrades on the old Wraithknight, but the price of the model went up only 55 points. I'd say the old model was about 20 points overpriced, some could even argue 30, but for argument's say I'll go with 20. Now we got 35 points of free upgrades. Then I add the power creep inflation that's clearly present in the game if we look at pretty much any unit in the Necron codex and there's your missing 35 points.
The old model was *overpriced*? Most people would have argued the exact opposite, that it was underpriced. It was certainly a common high end tournament staple for being an overpriced unit...
Of course you can disagree with just about everything I said above, but that's the way I look at it. The Wraithknight clearly isn't the biggest offender in the new book. I think the smaller units gaining free very powerful upgrades are much bigger issues to complain about.
I'd agree that things like Wraithguard are bigger offenders, but that doesn't mean the Wraithknight isn't a pretty huge issue either.
The old model was *overpriced*? Most people would have argued the exact opposite, that it was underpriced. It was certainly a common high end tournament staple for being an overpriced unit...
Yeah it was overpriced. Not everyone used them by any means. They weren't nearly as points effective as say Riptides.
They were included in armies because nothing else in the codex did the job they did, which was being sort of resilient guys that move 12"+ every turn and threaten close combat while taking pot shots at stuff. They countered a lot of units that would otherwise roll through the Eldar army.
That doesn't mean they still can't be overpriced -- It just means they are your only source of doing something. And they weren't that much overpriced. Like I said, about 20 points.
And you don't need to counter my argument by linking every crap unit in the game, because they're probably overpriced too.
FNP on a T8 W6 GC is worth *WAY* more than 30pts. Stomp attacks can easily be worth 50pts.
I edited it before you posted that I concede that FNP can cost even 50 points on this model. Stomps on the other hand aren't all purpose enough to warrant too high points increase. You can't charge a premium for every single thing that sometimes gets used. You can charge a lot on things that always get applied, like FNP.
T8 W6 FNP for 295 points is 50 points per wound. Now the wound is more protected but it's still a 50 point wound. That's not cheap, when once again the resilience is the major strength here, because the model gets one S D shot per almost 150 points, which is again horribly expensive. It's a walking brick wall that doesn't shoot that hard.
This thing is priced pretty well by GW. Direct your complaints elsewhere, IMO.
Therion wrote: Stomps on the other hand aren't all purpose enough to warrant too high points increase. You can't charge a premium for every single thing that sometimes gets used. You can charge a lot on things that always get applied, like FNP.
They shouldn't, but GWDOES charge a premium for things that only sometimes get used. Basically every Assault Unit that pays out the nose for marginally useful abilities like Rage, or Fleet, or Furious Charge, etc. Except in this instance, they just give away these things for free (Wraithblades clearly are outshined by Wraithguard now, so the solution is free Rage apparently).
Asurmen (220)
4++ (3++ if fighting in a challenge). Gets 1D3 Warlord traits. Sword is +1S, AP2, Mastercrafterd. For each wound take a Ld test. If failed model dies.
Jain Zar (200)
When fighting in a challange, Jain Zar chooses a weapon of is opponent. He may not use this weapon. If done so, Jain Zar has -1A. Enemy models at +6″ get -5 to WS (MÃnimum 1). Her sword is AP2, Shred.
Karandras (200)
When arriving from reserves can choose any border. His mandiblaster ignores ALL saves.
Fuegan (220)
He gets +1S and +1A for each lost wound.
Baharroth (170)
When DS all units at 6″ are treated as hit by a weapon with the Blind SR.
Maugan Ra (195)
Can fire his Maugetar twice per turn (That means 8 S6 Rending shots). Maugetar has an alternative profile: Assault 1, S1, Poison 2+. If one model dies, put 5″ marker. All models under the template get a S5 AP4 hit.
The Knight only, only ever has S D in CC unlike the WK. The IK can be killed by a unit of stern guard or other drop melta with relative ease. One alone has never been an issue.
A T8 GC on the other hand is a beast that can't be one shotted by anything and also has FNP to boot? Sweet Zombie Jesus.
Hmm I will seriously consider doing Eldar on the other hand if I can make it work with Striking Scorpions and Karandras, a non cheese list, I would definitely do that.
Well since you're calling me naive I can respond ad hominem and say I'm glad none of you are designing games.
Because the exact design of overpointing things for attributes that may or may not be used sometimes are the reason most of Forgeworlds units have for over a decade been unusable because of being horribly points inefficient.
A power creep inflation exists. It varies in strength. Maybe sometimes its 2%, sometimes 10%, but it drives sales to keep making armies and units that on the surface seem effective and interesting. And there's nothing wrong with that as long as it keeps going forever and everyone keep getting stronger.
Who on earth would field a 400 point Wraithknight? The same casual player that would field it even if it cost 700 points, that's who.
Why would you call bias when you don't even know the background of the poster or what armies he plays or where he plays or how he plays? I'm actually looking at the units objectively and trying to dissect them to see IF the units are a) underpriced and b) if so the magnitude of the pricing mistake. If a unit is underpriced by 5% we can just forget it and call it inflation. If it's underpriced by 30% or more then we can say we have a unit that will cause trouble on the battlefields. These units are labeled cheesy, and many armies have them. I've yet to see any evidence that this is the case here but please do keep the discussion going. Just try not to be biased because you don't play Eldar and are up to your ears sick of losing against them, and form an objective opinion instead.
Oh my lord this keeps getting better, I see some people heads may have actually exploded with the further leaks.
I just think that a lot of people are xenophobic.
Personally I welcome our alien overlords.
I don't get what the issue is but then again I am one of those weird people who plays with and against FW and often on a board with more terrain than a hill and a stand of citadel trees.
While I agree if you play on a board setup like a 17th century pitched battle, then 40 inches worth of jetbikes may well be an issue. However play in a city and things change to favour marines and other armies again,except orks GW really does not like you i figure kirby got beat by orks a lot or his wife got fondled by a grot or somthing.
The old model was *overpriced*? Most people would have argued the exact opposite, that it was underpriced. It was certainly a common high end tournament staple for being an overpriced unit...
Yeah it was overpriced. Not everyone used them by any means. They weren't nearly as points effective as say Riptides.
Riptides rely a lot on Markerlights for maximum effectiveness, requiring an additional unit for support, inflating the cost of the total package. Likewise, the Riptide operates in a different capacity to the Wraithknight. Finally, even if we assume that the WK isn't as points effective as the Riptide, that doesn't mean the WK can't still be undercosted, it just means the Riptide is even moreso.
They were included in armies because nothing else in the codex did the job they did, which was being sort of resilient guys that move 12"+ every turn and threaten close combat while taking pot shots at stuff. They countered a lot of units that would otherwise roll through the Eldar army.
That doesn't mean they still can't be overpriced -- It just means they are your only source of doing something. And they weren't that much overpriced. Like I said, about 20 points.
And again, I think most people would disagree with this statement. From my experiences, I think you're the first person to have ever made this assertion, at least that I've seen.
And you don't need to counter my argument by linking every crap unit in the game, because they're probably overpriced too.
The bigger point was that lots of other units weren't seen as grossly overpriced before until other things got megabuffed. Sure, Malcadors were always kinda crappy, but nobody thought Baneblades were spectacularly overpried, most people saw them largely as reasonably balanced.
I edited it before you posted that I concede that FNP can cost even 50 points on this model. Stomps on the other hand aren't all purpose enough to warrant too high points increase. You can't charge a premium for every single thing that sometimes gets used. You can charge a lot on things that always get applied, like FNP.
Stomp gets to be used in any CC not involving another GC/Superheavy. That's still pretty huge.
Except it's didn't just have two S10 shots, it effectively got to run around with two Railguns (for about the same price as two Railheads Railhead, albeit not as much range but not super short ranged either), while being highly mobile and packing four WS4 S10 I5 melee attacks on top of the firepower.
T8 W6 FNP for 295 points is 50 points per wound. Now the wound is more protected but it's still a 50 point wound. That's not cheap, when once again the resilience is the major strength here, because the model gets one S D shot per almost 150 points, which is again horribly expensive. It's a walking brick wall that doesn't shoot that hard.
It's got drastically better firepower now, Strength D is far more capable than S:10, and now gets dramatically increased resiliency and increased CC capability, and is about the cheapest GC I can possibly think of, while certainly not anything near the least capable.
For 295pts, I'm certainly having trouble thinking of units from most armies that could match its mobility, resiliency, firepower, and CC capability, or even just three of those four, from most armies, especially without supporting units. 295pts of Wraithknight is certainly going to put 300pts of any sort of Predator/Leman Russ/Hammerhead/etc MBT combo to shame.
They were included in armies because nothing else in the codex did the job they did, which was being sort of resilient guys that move 12"+ every turn and threaten close combat while taking pot shots at stuff. They countered a lot of units that would otherwise roll through the Eldar army.
That doesn't mean they still can't be overpriced -- It just means they are your only source of doing something. And they weren't that much overpriced. Like I said, about 20 points.
And again, I think most people would disagree with this statement. From my experiences, I think you're the first person to have ever made this assertion, at least that I've seen.
I can at least agree with him on this. From personal experience my wraithknights, I ran two, don't usually last through a game. More often then not both are dead by turn 4 or 5. I can't even count on both hands the times a wraithknight has been taken out by a single unit, while it didn't happen often it was common, if that makes sense. Now I know this was only my personal experience and cannot justify it for a more worldwide view, but I figure best to throw my two cents in.
I must say this again- I cannot believe the amount this release has brought this many users of Dakka into agreement about something. Seeing such unity is a nice flower that has arisen from this turd of a codex.
I said bias or naive one or other hey maybe both who am I to judge but the point is a 400 pt WK is as good or better than a 375p IK and people field them and they are good units.
Absolutely nothing wrong at all with a Destroyer enabled, fast GC that is T8 with 6 wounds. Nothing at all and it compares favourably to every other 40k unit and far better than 99% of them.
Thank god you don't design games...or maybe you do, did you write this codex!
Vaktathi wrote:
For 295pts, I'm certainly having trouble thinking of units from most armies that could match its mobility, resiliency, firepower, and CC capability, or even just three of those four, from most armies, especially without supporting units. 295pts of Wraithknight is certainly going to put 300pts of any sort of Predator/Leman Russ/Hammerhead/etc MBT combo to shame.
Get back to modern times though. How does 295 points of Wraithknight compare to 295 points of Scatbikes, Wraithguard, Fire Dragons, Seers, Decurion Tomb Blades and Wraiths and Destroyer Cults? Is it still a big offender? Dissect some of these units into point per wound and point per firepower and you'll find the Wraithknight is well in line.
Similarly, remember there's the issue of internal balance. Unless we're saying everything in the new Eldar codex is underpriced, and would be willing to nerf everything, then the Wraithknight needs to be in line for it to be usable. Otherwise it would get ignored and all the other choices would get spammed, resulting in boring armies. Now if you did answer yes to the 'nerf everything' then you'll probably to go back in time and nerf previous codices too and nerf every powerful army in the game. But since we can all agree that's not happening we have to be realistic and call it as it is. The Wraithknight doesn't jump out as dramatically underpriced in the new Codex: Eldar. It's just one of the seemingly competitive choices among many others, and in line in strength with the previous Codex: Necrons.
Finally, we're still ignoring the LoW issue. If it's a LoW it puts a cap of one on the unit for most games, which could theoretically even warrant a points reduction if GW feels it's a thematic unit every army should have one of. I guess you can take multiple if you take multiples of the Wraith formation, but on the other hand many tournaments have the army wide cap of 'one LoW that is superheavy or gargantuan' which would put a stop to that.
Get back to modern times though. How does 295 points of Wraithknight compare to 295 points of Scatbikes, Wraithguard, Fire Dragons, Seers, Decurion Tomb Blades and Wraiths and Destroyer Cults? Is it still a big offender? Dissect some of these units into point per wound and point per firepower and you'll find the Wraithknight is well in line.
The Daemonkin codex is pretty recent and the WK dumps all over the Bloodthirsters, to say nothing of the Lord of Skulls which costs 3 times as much.
Even Necrons, their C'tan are laughable compared to the Wraithknight. 250 points for a MC with random powers?
Get back to modern times though. How does 295 points of Wraithknight compare to 295 points of Scatbikes, Wraithguard, Fire Dragons, Seers, Decurion Tomb Blades and Wraiths and Destroyer Cults? Is it still a big offender? Dissect some of these units into point per wound and point per firepower and you'll find the Wraithknight is well in line.
The Daemonkin codex is pretty recent and the WK dumps all over the Bloodthirsters, to say nothing of the Lord of Skulls which costs 3 times as much.
Even Necrons, their C'tan are laughable compared to the Wraithknight. 250 points for a MC with random powers?
What does the Avatar do in the new Eldar codex, and how much does it cost? That could be a good point of comparison with the C'tan.
Not all of those are "unmodern". Those are all books released in the last couple of years, hell the IG book isn't even a year old yet. We can compare it to the Stompa in the Ork codex which is only a few months old as well, and the points invested in a WK are certainly far more effectively used than the Stompa.
How does 295 points of Wraithknight compare to 295 points of Scatbikes, Wraithguard, Fire Dragons, Seers, Decurion Tomb Blades and Wraiths and Destroyer Cults? Is it still a big offender? Dissect some of these units into point per wound and point per firepower and you'll find the Wraithknight is well in line.
Different roles for many of these units, however, that doesn't mean they're all particularly well balanced. Just because some of these are also overpowered isn't a good reason the WK needs to be
Similarly, remember there's the issue of internal balance. Unless we're saying everything in the new Eldar codex is underpriced
For which there is an increasingly good argument for a very large chunk of it.
and would be willing to nerf everything, then the Wraithknight needs to be in line for it to be usable. Otherwise it would get ignored and all the other choices would get spammed, resulting in boring armies.
Which is still a pretty crap reason for a unit to be overpowered.
Now if you did answer yes to the 'nerf everything' then you'll probably to go back in time and nerf previous codices too and nerf every powerful army in the game.
To be honest, most just had a couple broken units. Only this and the Necron codex are as widely spread in their sillyness.
Finally, we're still ignoring the LoW issue. If it's a LoW it puts a cap of one on the unit for most games, which could theoretically even warrant a points reduction if GW feels it's a thematic unit every army should have one of. I guess you can take multiple if you take multiples of the Wraith formation, but on the other hand many tournaments have the army wide cap of 'one LoW that is superheavy or gargantuan' which would put a stop to that.
If you look at the detachment/formation list, it's nowhere near as restricted as LoW's in other armies.
Vaktathi wrote:Different roles for many of these units, however, that doesn't mean they're all particularly well balanced. Just because some of these are also overpowered isn't a good reason the WK needs to be
See, this is where we disagree. The community has proven to be unable to balance the game by retroactively repointing everything or restricting the largest offenders by any meaningful disagree, because the community can't agree on pretty much anything. The only way forward is to hope GW keeps whatever trend that it decides is appropriate, and balance or even an illusion of balance happens naturally. That's why I'm a firm supporter of continuous power creep.
If you look at the detachment/formation list, it's nowhere near as restricted as LoW's in other armies.
I haven't looked, but I don't think that makes any difference if every tournament is (as they have been) restricts superheavy/gargantuan LoWs to one. The only reason Knights are allowed in multiples is because they aren't Lords of War.
Accolade wrote: I must say this again- I cannot believe the amount this release has brought this many users of Dakka into agreement about something. Seeing such unity is a nice flower that has arisen from this turd of a codex.
In the grim darkness of the 41st Millennium, there is only one point of consensus:
Accolade wrote: I must say this again- I cannot believe the amount this release has brought this many users of Dakka into agreement about something. Seeing such unity is a nice flower that has arisen from this turd of a codex.
In the grim darkness of the 41st Millennium, there is only one point of consensus:
7th edition Eldar are broken.
Well it's good for the Necron players then, or the Daemon players who have been streamrolling GTs a couple years in a row now, or everyone who likes 4 Hive Tyrants even to the extent of allying them to their Tau and whatever armies. The angry Eye of the Community is now fixed on Eldar, and the Eye demands nerfs!
Therion wrote: Get back to modern times though. How does 295 points of Wraithknight compare to 295 points of Scatbikes, Wraithguard, Fire Dragons, Seers, Decurion Tomb Blades and Wraiths and Destroyer Cults? Is it still a big offender?
It's cheaper and better than an Imperial Knight. In fact, the only Knight that is its equal in CC costs 105 more points (the lancer), needs to get the charge to be I5 and only has an 18" range S6 AP2 heavy 6 gun instead of heavy 3 S6 AP2 blast+S6 AP6 heavy 4. It's also vulnerable to haywire and takes more damage from melta.
Therion wrote: Get back to modern times though. How does 295 points of Wraithknight compare to 295 points of Scatbikes, Wraithguard, Fire Dragons, Seers, Decurion Tomb Blades and Wraiths and Destroyer Cults? Is it still a big offender?
It's cheaper and better than an Imperial Knight. In fact, the only Knight that is its equal in CC costs 105 more points (the lancer), needs to get the charge to be I5 and only has an 18" range S6 AP2 heavy 6 gun instead of heavy 3 S6 AP2 blast+S6 AP6 heavy 4. It's also vulnerable to haywire and takes more damage from melta.
How much does the Wraithknight with the S D melee weapon, 4+ invulnerable save, scatter laser and suncannon cost in the new book? I've only seen the ranged variant being mentioned, so apologies if it was posted earlier.
Therion wrote: Get back to modern times though. How does 295 points of Wraithknight compare to 295 points of Scatbikes, Wraithguard, Fire Dragons, Seers, Decurion Tomb Blades and Wraiths and Destroyer Cults? Is it still a big offender?
It's cheaper and better than an Imperial Knight. In fact, the only Knight that is its equal in CC costs 105 more points (the lancer), needs to get the charge to be I5 and only has an 18" range S6 AP2 heavy 6 gun instead of heavy 3 S6 AP2 blast+S6 AP6 heavy 4. It's also vulnerable to haywire and takes more damage from melta.
The Wraithknight is super busted. Vehicles will always be disadvantaged to Gargantuans as they former can suffer catastrophic failures. So if WKs hit the table, it'll be about D-escalation.
Thank you Greyknight12 that is exactly my point. No way does the Wraithknight even on old stats balance, how on earth did it get a buff and why on earth is someone defending it
Therion wrote: Get back to modern times though. How does 295 points of Wraithknight compare to 295 points of Scatbikes, Wraithguard, Fire Dragons, Seers, Decurion Tomb Blades and Wraiths and Destroyer Cults? Is it still a big offender?
It's cheaper and better than an Imperial Knight. In fact, the only Knight that is its equal in CC costs 105 more points (the lancer), needs to get the charge to be I5 and only has an 18" range S6 AP2 heavy 6 gun instead of heavy 3 S6 AP2 blast+S6 AP6 heavy 4. It's also vulnerable to haywire and takes more damage from melta.
How much does the Wraithknight with the S D melee weapon, 4+ invulnerable save, scatter laser and suncannon cost in the new book? I've only seen the ranged variant being mentioned, so apologies if it was posted earlier.
All variants cost the same, so it'd be 295 + SL cost (20ish points I think).
We literally never play LoW around my area does it still confer disadvantages on a player that takes it or does it mean nothing except your limited to one per CAD?
Get back to modern times though. How does 295 points of Wraithknight compare to 295 points of Scatbikes, Wraithguard, Fire Dragons, Seers, Decurion Tomb Blades and Wraiths and Destroyer Cults? Is it still a big offender? Dissect some of these units into point per wound and point per firepower and you'll find the Wraithknight is well in line.
The Daemonkin codex is pretty recent and the WK dumps all over the Bloodthirsters, to say nothing of the Lord of Skulls which costs 3 times as much.
Even Necrons, their C'tan are laughable compared to the Wraithknight. 250 points for a MC with random powers?
What does the Avatar do in the new Eldar codex, and how much does it cost? That could be a good point of comparison with the C'tan.
Apparently its the same but has no exarch powers, is a low and the weapon is +2S.
Can we please get back on topic? The bitching/moaning/complaining does not belong here. It is getting pretty out of hand, and is deminishing the quality of this thread. If you want to talk about that kind of stuff could you please create a separate thread? Very hard to find rumors/leaks through all the bs.
Therion wrote: Get back to modern times though. How does 295 points of Wraithknight compare to 295 points of Scatbikes, Wraithguard, Fire Dragons, Seers, Decurion Tomb Blades and Wraiths and Destroyer Cults? Is it still a big offender?
It's cheaper and better than an Imperial Knight. In fact, the only Knight that is its equal in CC costs 105 more points (the lancer), needs to get the charge to be I5 and only has an 18" range S6 AP2 heavy 6 gun instead of heavy 3 S6 AP2 blast+S6 AP6 heavy 4. It's also vulnerable to haywire and takes more damage from melta.
How much does the Wraithknight with the S D melee weapon, 4+ invulnerable save, scatter laser and suncannon cost in the new book? I've only seen the ranged variant being mentioned, so apologies if it was posted earlier.
All variants cost the same, so it'd be 295 + SL cost (20ish points I think).
Well, the melee one certainly sounds stronger than the one with wraithcannons if you still get the invulnerable save. It will blow up deathstars really nicely with the d-sword and stomps. Might even change the meta.
Spoletta wrote: Those aspect warriors are by no means cheese. They are cool, fun and properly costed.
Well, they're much closer to properly costed, anyways. Dire Avengers, for example, are still flat out better for their points than space marines. It's just much more reasonable than handing out D-weapons like candy.
extremefreak17 wrote: Can we please get back on topic? The bitching/moaning/complaining does not belong here. It is getting pretty out of hand, and is deminishing the quality of this thread. If you want to talk about that kind of stuff could you please create a separate thread? Very hard to find rumors/leaks through all the bs.
extremefreak17 wrote: Can we please get back on topic? The bitching/moaning/complaining does not belong here. It is getting pretty out of hand, and is deminishing the quality of this thread. If you want to talk about that kind of stuff could you please create a separate thread? Very hard to find rumors/leaks through all the bs.
This this and this again. As has been constantly pointed out there is a thread in discussion forums to rage out. Several of us have repeatedly asked you guys to take it there....freaking please
I have word on the next Eldar supplement, Eldar: Cheese Factory. Every unit has relentless and scatter AND D weapons, and are all super gargantuans with for 70 points each. The HQ is Cheese Factory Manager, troops are Cheese Factory bikers, and the LoW is the Cheese Factory Security worker (who has 16 wounds)
extremefreak17 wrote: Can we please get back on topic? The bitching/moaning/complaining does not belong here. It is getting pretty out of hand, and is deminishing the quality of this thread. If you want to talk about that kind of stuff could you please create a separate thread? Very hard to find rumors/leaks through all the bs.
So Aspect Warriors get fixed abilities depening if there is an exarch or not. What a wash, true that there were some worthless abilities around but now we'll have cookie cutter aspect warriors all over the place. I guess that the designers couldn't create a random table for exarch abilities on time.
Miguelsan wrote: So Aspect Warriors get fixed abilities depening if there is an exarch or not. What a wash, true that there were some worthless abilities around but now we'll have cookie cutter aspect warriors all over the place. I guess that the designers couldn't create a random table for exarch abilities on time.
M.
On a roll of 1, your opponent gains Bladestorm on one of their troops weapons.
[MOD EDIT - LOTS of naughty language in there, so consider that link NSFW. Also, consider this a warning against linking to stuff like this without appropriately identifying it as such too - Alpharius]
All i can say is that i play orks and after necrons and these rumors (most are confirmed) feels like orks got the shaft in 7th.
I will waaagh on. I play once a week and love the game, but you can't say it's ok to watch the power creep while some codex's got nothing in comparison.
And for 295 the WK is in every way better than a morkanuaght at 310. How is that far. I'd say it's better than a stompa and it's 800 and can get 1 shotted by a WK now and has no chance of doing a thing about it.
Relapse wrote: Can someone who has them consolidated repost a collection of the rumors? It's a bit of slog picking through pages of whining to find the actual news.
How can people defend that 295 point WK pricetag......
The model before was powerful for its cost. Now it is nothing more than a blatant money grab.
55 point increase for:
-Stomp (This is massive, one of the few methods that some armies had for dealing with these things was to tarpit them. That is now much harder, if not impossible, to do for any decent length of time).
-Damage reduction vs poison and sniper. (Again some armies relied on these to take a WK down. Large boost in survivability for the WK in many cases. For example 10 sterngaurd rapid firing with 2+ posion shots would have done 3.7 wounds before, now it does less then 0.5...).
-FNP on a T8 W6 model. I believe someone said this was worth 30 points? Lol. Effectively this gives the WK 2 more wounds on its profile vs non ID and Str D weapons.
-Resistant to ID and removed from play shenanigans.
-Able to split fire.
-Str D melee and ranged options.
Absolutely disgusting imo.
Consider that a riptide, the shining paragon of balance that it is, pays 35 points for FNP alone.
The model before was powerful for its cost. Now it is nothing more than a blatant money grab.
55 point increase for:
-Stomp (This is massive, one of the few methods that some armies had for dealing with these things was to tarpit them. That is now much harder, if not impossible, to do for any decent length of time).
-Damage reduction vs poison and sniper. (Again some armies relied on these to take a WK down. Large boost in survivability for the WK in many cases. For example 10 sterngaurd rapid firing with 2+ posion shots would have done 3.7 wounds before, now it does less then 0.5...).
-FNP on a T8 W6 model. I believe someone said this was worth 30 points? Lol. Effectively this gives the WK 2 more wounds on its profile vs non ID and Str D weapons.
-Resistant to ID and removed from play shenanigans.
-Able to split fire.
-Str D melee and ranged options.
Absolutely disgusting imo.
Consider that a riptide, the shining paragon of balance that it is, pays 35 points for FNP alone.
definitely boggles the mind! My WK doesn't have any D (suncannon/scattershield) but it still has some major buffs for practically the same cost.
How much does the Wraithknight with the S D melee weapon, 4+ invulnerable save, scatter laser and suncannon cost in the new book? I've only seen the ranged variant being mentioned, so apologies if it was posted earlier.
It costs infinite points, because it doesn't exist? Or was that the point you were trying to make, I'm confused...
S D melee rules out S D gun, S D gun rules out its 5++ save, and shoulder guns do cost extra above the hypothetical 295.
Personally I'm just hoping that it turns out that the guy doing the reporting has glaucoma or something and misread the first digit, which was actually supposed to be a 3.
But on a serious note. Can anyone confirm the Warp Spiders rule. Seems my favorite unit just got funnier!!!
From Reddit thread.
S6 against vehicles. Warp Spiders are the same except for the following: only 'mishaps' on double ones, roll to wound against initiative, and can do their warp jump in the enemy's shooting phase (but if they do, they cannot in their following turn).
Anyone able to clear up the last bit, sounds amazing?
Know if they still get AP2?
Relapse wrote: Can someone who has them consolidated repost a collection of the rumors? It's a bit of slog picking through pages of whining to find the actual news.
The model before was powerful for its cost. Now it is nothing more than a blatant money grab.
55 point increase for:
-Stomp (This is massive, one of the few methods that some armies had for dealing with these things was to tarpit them. That is now much harder, if not impossible, to do for any decent length of time).
-Damage reduction vs poison and sniper. (Again some armies relied on these to take a WK down. Large boost in survivability for the WK in many cases. For example 10 sterngaurd rapid firing with 2+ posion shots would have done 3.7 wounds before, now it does less then 0.5...).
-FNP on a T8 W6 model. I believe someone said this was worth 30 points? Lol. Effectively this gives the WK 2 more wounds on its profile vs non ID and Str D weapons.
-Resistant to ID and removed from play shenanigans.
-Able to split fire.
-Str D melee and ranged options.
Absolutely disgusting imo.
Consider that a riptide, the shining paragon of balance that it is, pays 35 points for FNP alone.
I'm of a mixed mind, actually. First, 295 points. Yes, OMG awesome cheap.
However, it's a Gargantuan and LoW. That means that at virtually every tournament, you'll only be allowed one. In the ITC format, previously, you got a bonus for not using a Superheavy/Gargantuan LoW, that is lost. Also Ranged D is not permitted in most tournaments. Technically, you won't even be able to use it in ITC until they add it to the permitted Gargantuan LoW list (previously, you could have as many as you wanted).
I'm also not really super crazy about the new War host (though time will tell, I guess), as the Guardian Hosts are quite restrictive (you MUST take x y z). If you go CAD, you again are limited to one WK.
In casual play, most of your friends will not like you very much if you have 6 Wraith Knights. You know, kind of like if you play 6 Riptides. So... from a casual play perspective, I don't see many players running out and buying a half dozen WK boxes.
But yes, 295 points is way too cheap. 395, with +100 points for Ranged D would have been a lot better, IMO.
The amount of vitrol and personal attacks in this thread are sad. Experienced tournament players being lambasted for maintaining, based in their experience, the position that the sky is not falling and the new Eldar codex is not as bad as people are making it seem... There is no reasoning with the unreasonable.
So many pages of people going "undercosted and op stuff no fair" (loose paraphrase) with personal attacks against anyone that disagrees. I personally look forward to some of the changes, Reapers and Crimson Hunter specifically. Will be very interested to see how ITC handles the new dex as well-having played Iyanden since 2nd.
Also sad that Wraithlords didn't get any changes, was hoping for them to be 1-3 in a unit like talos. Kind of bummed that no tank/monster hunter or shred on Reapers and sad that no exarch powers like there used to be :(.
Will be very interested to see what Eldar lists people come up with as well. Personally I am really sad Wraith units cant be troops anymore as it was huge for me to have an obsec wraithblade unit running around :(. And to whoever made personal attacks and statements suggesting I leaned on taudar to win, the use of taudar does not take away from anyone's skills and all of my recent best tournaments were primarily with eldar/DE allies :p. And Like I said, based on my experience with Eldar, aside from D-scythes, I don't see anything terribly wrong with new dex. It seems pretty balanced actually... *runs into pool of asbestos*
This WK is disgustingly costed. The R'Varna from FW costs 295 pts with FNP, and is a t7 2+/5++ 6w model with two non str-d guns. If FNP costs the riptide 35 pts, the bonus given to the WK is approx 60 pts (or more, because of the 2+ T the WK has). I really wish GW would stop being a collectable model company, and become a company that produces rules and miniatures for a miniature war game.
mortetvie wrote: The amount of vitrol and personal attacks in this thread are sad. Experienced tournament players being lambasted for maintaining, based in their experience, the position that the sky is not falling and the new Eldar codex is not as bad as people are making it seem... There is no reasoning with the unreasonable.
So many pages of people going "undercosted and op stuff no fair" (loose paraphrase) with personal attacks against anyone that disagrees. I personally look forward to some of the changes, Reapers and Crimson Hunter specifically. Will be very interested to see how ITC handles the new dex as well-having played Iyanden since 2nd.
Also sad that Wraithlords didn't get any changes, was hoping for them to be 1-3 in a unit like talos. Kind of bummed that no tank/monster hunter or shred on Reapers and sad that no exarch powers like there used to be :(.
Will be very interested to see what Eldar lists people come up with as well. Personally I am really sad Wraith units cant be troops anymore as it was huge for me to have an obsec wraithblade unit running around :(. And to whoever made personal attacks and statements suggesting I leaned on taudar to win, the use of taudar does not take away from anyone's skills and all of my recent best tournaments were primarily with eldar/DE allies :p. And Like I said, based on my experience with Eldar, aside from D-scythes, I don't see anything terribly wrong with new dex. It seems pretty balanced actually... *runs into pool of asbestos*
Well said. Regardless of how people feel about it, it's not going to change ( for a few years anyway), so griping about this unit being broken, this unit too cheap, etc brings nothing to the table. When has GW ever listened to their fanbase and the outrage of the latest, greatest? That's right never. So do everyone a favor and stop ranting about things you have no control over. Other than quitting the game. With the rumored Tau and Marine codexes getting done later this year, I am sure their will be plenty of opportunity for GW to "Level the playing field".
mortetvie wrote: The amount of vitrol and personal attacks in this thread are sad. Experienced tournament players being lambasted for maintaining, based in their experience, the position that the sky is not falling and the new Eldar codex is not as bad as people are making it seem... There is no reasoning with the unreasonable.
So many pages of people going "undercosted and op stuff no fair" (loose paraphrase) with personal attacks against anyone that disagrees. I personally look forward to some of the changes, Reapers and Crimson Hunter specifically. Will be very interested to see how ITC handles the new dex as well-having played Iyanden since 2nd.
Also sad that Wraithlords didn't get any changes, was hoping for them to be 1-3 in a unit like talos. Kind of bummed that no tank/monster hunter or shred on Reapers and sad that no exarch powers like there used to be :(.
Will be very interested to see what Eldar lists people come up with as well. Personally I am really sad Wraith units cant be troops anymore as it was huge for me to have an obsec wraithblade unit running around :(. And to whoever made personal attacks and statements suggesting I leaned on taudar to win, the use of taudar does not take away from anyone's skills and all of my recent best tournaments were primarily with eldar/DE allies :p. And Like I said, based on my experience with Eldar, aside from D-scythes, I don't see anything terribly wrong with new dex. It seems pretty balanced actually... *runs into pool of asbestos*
Well said. Regardless of how people feel about it, it's not going to change ( for a few years anyway), so griping about this unit being broken, this unit too cheap, etc brings nothing to the table. When has GW ever listened to their fanbase and the outrage of the latest, greatest? That's right never. So do everyone a favor and stop ranting about things you have no control over. Other than quitting the game. With the rumored Tau and Marine codexes getting done later this year, I am sure their will be plenty of opportunity for GW to "Level the playing field".
It's funny how in virtually every thread in this forum, a forum that exists for the sole purpose of discussing rumours, there are people telling everyone else to stop wasting their time discussing rumours(in a way they don't like). Riddle me this; when has people whinging about people being annoyed ever stopped them being annoyed? A textbook case of physician heal thyself.
Dire Avengers: Overwatch at BS2 OR get counter attack and stubborn
Exarch: 4++
Howling banshees: +3" when running or assaulting. Ignore I penalties when assaulting through difficult terrain. Fear. No Overwatch allowed when Banshees assault
Exarch: Units in CC with the Banshees have -2L
Striking Scorpions: Stealth. Shrouded until the fire or assault.
Exarch: During a challenge compare I values. Exarch gets +1A for each point his I is better tan his oponent.
Fire Dragons: +1 on the vehicle damage chart.
Exarch: Once per turn, may reroll one to hit, to wound or to penetrare roll
Swooping Haws: If the move over a flier, every modl gets one special attack that hits on 4+, S4, AP4, Haywire. They move 18"
Exarch: His unit does not scatter if DS
Warp Spiders: They may jump during the opponent's shooting phase. If after the jum, the spiders are out of LoS or reach, firing unit cannot choose another target.
Exarch: His unit reroll all LD tests
Dark Reapers: Reroll to hit if target is: Flier, has turboboosted previous turn or moved flat out
Exarch: His weapon fires one more shot tan normally. For example: Heavy 2 becomes Heavy 3
Upgrades are:
Ignore Stunnig and Shaken with 4+ and 2+ (10 points)
Move through cover (10 points)
When moving flat out: 24" (15 points)
Once per game after moving flat out, may fire a single weapon at full BS (25 points)
Holofields: 5++ (15 points) flyers can't take
Battle runes are basically same:
Primaris: Shrouded / removes Stealth and Shrouded
1: Heavy Flamer / A model recovers a W
2: Fearless / -3 to Ld to target
3: +1 to WS and I / -1 to WS and I
4: +1 to armour sabe / -1 to armour sabe
5: Unit runs +3" / Target cannot run
6: +1S / -1S
Warlord traits.
1: 12" bubble. Once per game reroll 1's to wound
2: 1D3 units get Scout special rule
3: Warlord and his unit run +3"
4: Warlord rerolls all 1's when saving
5: Warlord has divide fire special rule
6: Friendly units do not scatter if DS at 12" from Warlord.
Also Iuchiban's thoughts after using the 'dex:
Just finished my first game vs Necrons. I took a normal CAD + wraith host detachment. Opponent run a Decurion detachment.
Here are my first impressions:
- Wraithknight is absurdly good. I run the Sun cannon + Shield one. Fire the Sun Cannon at some Inmortals, fire the scatter laser were I want to assault. 3+/5++/FnP in a R8 W6 model? Really this guy is unstoppable.
- Fire Dragons are redundant. D-scythes destroy vehicles much better. 5 auto hits that on a 3+ cause one penetrating hit with D3 hull points. No cover. And if there is a unit of Necrons Warriors inside the barge ..... This unit is simply OBSCENE. If they are in the detachment they have Battle Trance ... run + shoot the D-scythe. No more to say
- Warpspiders are much better now. They destroy one C'tan Shard in a single volley. They wound on 2+ to almost everything in the game. They are Little bit worse vs vehicles now ....
- Farseers are really good now. Rerolling one psychic test per turn is very powerful when you need to harness 4 Warp Charges for that Apocaliptic blast power.
So his battle report just confirms everything we already knew. A bit sceptical about his statements on D-Scythes though, since Fire Dragons are much cheaper. D-Scythes were already overkill on most things, admittedly they sucked against vehicles whereas now they instantly wreck them.
Heh already had four friends dump their armies and are buying Eldar. At our local store almost 75% of the players are buying/playing eldar now. I guess I will retire my armies and buy Eldar too. Well played GW. All other armies are no longer viable.
The model before was powerful for its cost. Now it is nothing more than a blatant money grab.
55 point increase for:
-Stomp (This is massive, one of the few methods that some armies had for dealing with these things was to tarpit them. That is now much harder, if not impossible, to do for any decent length of time).
-Damage reduction vs poison and sniper. (Again some armies relied on these to take a WK down. Large boost in survivability for the WK in many cases. For example 10 sterngaurd rapid firing with 2+ posion shots would have done 3.7 wounds before, now it does less then 0.5...).
-FNP on a T8 W6 model. I believe someone said this was worth 30 points? Lol. Effectively this gives the WK 2 more wounds on its profile vs non ID and Str D weapons.
-Resistant to ID and removed from play shenanigans.
-Able to split fire.
-Str D melee and ranged options.
Absolutely disgusting imo.
Consider that a riptide, the shining paragon of balance that it is, pays 35 points for FNP alone.
I'm of a mixed mind, actually. First, 295 points. Yes, OMG awesome cheap.
However, it's a Gargantuan and LoW. That means that at virtually every tournament, you'll only be allowed one. In the ITC format, previously, you got a bonus for not using a Superheavy/Gargantuan LoW, that is lost. Also Ranged D is not permitted in most tournaments. Technically, you won't even be able to use it in ITC until they add it to the permitted Gargantuan LoW list (previously, you could have as many as you wanted).
I'm also not really super crazy about the new War host (though time will tell, I guess), as the Guardian Hosts are quite restrictive (you MUST take x y z). If you go CAD, you again are limited to one WK.
In casual play, most of your friends will not like you very much if you have 6 Wraith Knights. You know, kind of like if you play 6 Riptides. So... from a casual play perspective, I don't see many players running out and buying a half dozen WK boxes.
But yes, 295 points is way too cheap. 395, with +100 points for Ranged D would have been a lot better, IMO.
The problem as can be seen in your first paragraph, is that many of these downsides come from homebrew rules people have made to allow 40k to function in a relatively balanced manner in competitive play.
It would have been nice for the devs to attempt to balance the game for once.
Javin wrote: Heh already had four friends dump their armies and are buying Eldar. At our local store almost 75% of the players are buying/playing eldar now. I guess I will retire my armies and buy Eldar too. Well played GW. All other armies are no longer viable.
mortetvie wrote: The amount of vitrol and personal attacks in this thread are sad. Experienced tournament players being lambasted for maintaining, based in their experience, the position that the sky is not falling and the new Eldar codex is not as bad as people are making it seem... There is no reasoning with the unreasonable.
So many pages of people going "undercosted and op stuff no fair" (loose paraphrase) with personal attacks against anyone that disagrees. I personally look forward to some of the changes, Reapers and Crimson Hunter specifically. Will be very interested to see how ITC handles the new dex as well-having played Iyanden since 2nd.
Funny, I've seen as much vitriol and personal attacks the other way too. People not listening to a single bad word said agains GW. You're right, there is no reasoning with the unreasonable.
And everyone saying 'take the whining to other threads' people are discussing the rumours. Pretty sure that's allowed in a rumour thread.
They way i look at it, theres a definite plan in place for GW.
They released the wraithknight model and i believe that this was the first step in intergrating FW products into the main lineup (my personal opinion, is that it was originally intended to be a GC, but they opted for a MC at the time as no other races would have access to D weapons, or GC/SH models).
They followed this a couple months later with escalation, releasing a selection of super heavy kits to all races and shortly after this, imperial knights became the 3rd plastic kit (first since escalation) to be released - to the largest % of there playerbase. Cycle through a bit and we get to the new necron dex. lots of modifiers to WBB rolls based on D weapons, seemed a little odd but clearly with hindsight prepped them for the introduction of ranged D as a more common occurrence within 40k.
Harlequins gained access to a neuro disruptor which now looks like the greatest thing since sliced bread but at the time was an overcosted plasma pistol in most scenarios.
The skitarri dex brings an awful lot of toughness reducing and haywire shenanigans to the fore
I believe that newer dexes will have some forgeworld units built in or new ranged D weapons available and i think we might finally see a plastic thunderhawk thats been much rumoured in the marine dex to introduce super heavy flyers to us.
Either way, no matter what you believe, were all going to have this codex, it won't change and it does go back to how eldar are supposed to play after a pretty bland version last time that left half the units unusable. hopefully the next dexes released follow suit.
kloma wrote: how would psychic scream do? or lance?
Psychic scream ( if you manage to cast it) averages at 6-8 on 2 D6. So youll be doing nothing on average and a wound if youre lucky. ( FNP has 1/3 chance to ignore. )
Lance has 2/3 chace to hit and 5/6 chance to wound -Again with a 1-3 chance to ignore.
Nids have no way of tarpitting knights thanks to stomp and immune to poison. The only thing that can punch through a knight is a heirodule but most comps in uk limit low to 495 pts. ( maybe this will change now?)
Either way, Its a bitter feeling over here for sure!
Iechine wrote: Tyranids can do nothing against a WK, shooting wise. 4 Flyrants shooting at it will do 1.58 wounds (960pts of standard flyrant loadouts)
We also cannot do anything combatwise.
People turn around and say bring our own. Earlier in the thread I made a beat the Wraithknight would be cheaper than any Tyranid Gargantuan creature (as our cheapest is a 560 point Hierodule).
I wasn't expecting it to be THAT MUCH CHEAPER.
The Wraithknight has superior stats across the board, superior weaponry, is a Jump creature...AND costs 250 points less?
And thanks to the Eldar detachment...for the tax of fielding your old Bike Spam List from 5th edition you get to field as many as these as you like!
Well played GW. Wel played.
Tyranids can do nothing to Eldar now. NOTHING.
Wilson - I wouoldn't touch Hierodules with a barge pole. They are by far the worst Gargantuan creatures in the game for what they do.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
buddha wrote: Someone else posted this but I thought it shows how crazy the pricing is on the wriathknight.
Chapter Master on Bike with Shield Eternal... 250 points.
Wraithknight - T8 6W Gargantuan creature with D strength ranged and melee weapons ... 295 points
Belakor ... 350 points
Kitted out Daemon Prince - S6, T5 (Wings, armour, 2 greater gifts, mark, ML3 psyker) ... 355 points
Imperial Knight titan ... 375 points
Barbed Heirodule - T8 6W Gargantuan Creature with Heavy 10 S10 shooting, and S10 melee ... 585 points
295pts (WTF o.0)
The pricing on the Wraithknight is the one thing that well and truly threw me about this codex.
Seriously. Looking at the past 2 years, the Taudar shenanigans, the serpent spam and wraith spam shenanigans...
Iechine wrote: Tyranids can do nothing against a WK, shooting wise. 4 Flyrants shooting at it will do 1.58 wounds (960pts of standard flyrant loadouts)
We also cannot do anything combatwise.
People turn around and say bring our own. Earlier in the thread I made a beat the Wraithknight would be cheaper than any Tyranid Gargantuan creature (as our cheapest is a 560 point Hierodule).
I wasn't expecting it to be THAT MUCH CHEAPER.
The Wraithknight has superior stats across the board, superior weaponry, is a Jump creature...AND costs 250 points less?
And thanks to the Eldar detachment...for the tax of fielding your old Bike Spam List from 5th edition you get to field as many as these as you like!
Well played GW. Wel played.
Tyranids can do nothing to Eldar now. NOTHING.
Wilson - I wouoldn't touch Hierodules with a barge pole. They are by far the worst Gargantuan creatures in the game for what they do.
No apparently non Eldar players just need to
"Stop whining and Learn to Play"
There are no rules problems only people playing with the wrong army.................there are apparently no cheese or OP units - just totally skillful players who just happen to use the same units - repeateldy and in quantiry - but thats cos they are "skilled" - its nothing to do with the actual units.
Who also got some of the most ridiculous buffs I've seen.
Oh hey. We're gonna...uh...
Make you immune to Overwatch.
Have you ignore cover.
Give the enemy -2 Ld.
Cause Fear.
Still have fleet, power swords and some of the silliest base stats in terms of WS and I.
The model before was powerful for its cost. Now it is nothing more than a blatant money grab.
55 point increase for:
-Stomp (This is massive, one of the few methods that some armies had for dealing with these things was to tarpit them. That is now much harder, if not impossible, to do for any decent length of time).
-Damage reduction vs poison and sniper. (Again some armies relied on these to take a WK down. Large boost in survivability for the WK in many cases. For example 10 sterngaurd rapid firing with 2+ posion shots would have done 3.7 wounds before, now it does less then 0.5...).
-FNP on a T8 W6 model. I believe someone said this was worth 30 points? Lol. Effectively this gives the WK 2 more wounds on its profile vs non ID and Str D weapons.
-Resistant to ID and removed from play shenanigans.
-Able to split fire.
-Str D melee and ranged options.
Absolutely disgusting imo.
Consider that a riptide, the shining paragon of balance that it is, pays 35 points for FNP alone.
I'm of a mixed mind, actually. First, 295 points. Yes, OMG awesome cheap.
However, it's a Gargantuan and LoW. That means that at virtually every tournament, you'll only be allowed one. In the ITC format, previously, you got a bonus for not using a Superheavy/Gargantuan LoW, that is lost. Also Ranged D is not permitted in most tournaments. Technically, you won't even be able to use it in ITC until they add it to the permitted Gargantuan LoW list (previously, you could have as many as you wanted).
I'm also not really super crazy about the new War host (though time will tell, I guess), as the Guardian Hosts are quite restrictive (you MUST take x y z). If you go CAD, you again are limited to one WK.
In casual play, most of your friends will not like you very much if you have 6 Wraith Knights. You know, kind of like if you play 6 Riptides. So... from a casual play perspective, I don't see many players running out and buying a half dozen WK boxes.
But yes, 295 points is way too cheap. 395, with +100 points for Ranged D would have been a lot better, IMO.
All three shouldve been priced differently imo. 295 is a bit cheap for the Suncannon Knight, but overall isnt that bad. The Glaive Knight should sit around 370-375, Wraithcannon Knight should be 400 (if its TL) or 450 if its two seperate cannons. Ranged D is available in 7" Blast Form at the 400 point range. I'll likely play the them at those higher respective values since that seems like an appropriate houseruling.
Likewise with the bikes I'll keep them 1 in 3 since thats how the Dark Eldar Reavers roll.
I play heavy aspect with Swooping Hawks/Shining Spears being a regular component of my lists so people tend to not complain.
I really wished that they updated the Aspect Warriors models though, they really are the the units which define the eldar. Hopefully they get the "Shield of Baal" treatment down the line.
I'm also not really super crazy about the new War host (though time will tell, I guess), as the Guardian Hosts are quite restrictive (you MUST take x y z). If you go CAD, you again are limited to one WK.
Really? Restrictive?
The Windrider one is a copy-paste of the average meta Eldar army prior to the 6th edition codex.
Farseer on bike? Check.
Warlocks on bikes? Check.
Bikes? Check.
Vypers? Check.
It's not really that restrictive. It means you have to dust off some models you put on the shelf for the Wraithknight and Serpent bandwagon and actually use them again.
Iechine wrote: Tyranids can do nothing against a WK, shooting wise. 4 Flyrants shooting at it will do 1.58 wounds (960pts of standard flyrant loadouts)
We also cannot do anything combatwise.
People turn around and say bring our own. Earlier in the thread I made a beat the Wraithknight would be cheaper than any Tyranid Gargantuan creature (as our cheapest is a 560 point Hierodule).
I wasn't expecting it to be THAT MUCH CHEAPER.
The Wraithknight has superior stats across the board, superior weaponry, is a Jump creature...AND costs 250 points less?
And thanks to the Eldar detachment...for the tax of fielding your old Bike Spam List from 5th edition you get to field as many as these as you like!
Well played GW. Wel played.
I have jokingly said in the past they need a buff lol
I guess I should be careful what I wish for
Tyranids can do nothing to Eldar now. NOTHING.
Wilson - I wouoldn't touch Hierodules with a barge pole. They are by far the worst Gargantuan creatures in the game for what they do.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
buddha wrote: Someone else posted this but I thought it shows how crazy the pricing is on the wriathknight.
Chapter Master on Bike with Shield Eternal... 250 points.
Wraithknight - T8 6W Gargantuan creature with D strength ranged and melee weapons ... 295 points
Belakor ... 350 points
Kitted out Daemon Prince - S6, T5 (Wings, armour, 2 greater gifts, mark, ML3 psyker) ... 355 points
Imperial Knight titan ... 375 points
Barbed Heirodule - T8 6W Gargantuan Creature with Heavy 10 S10 shooting, and S10 melee ... 585 points
295pts (WTF o.0)
The pricing on the Wraithknight is the one thing that well and truly threw me about this codex.
Seriously. Looking at the past 2 years, the Taudar shenanigans, the serpent spam and wraith spam shenanigans...
Who the hell said....Hmm. Eldar Need Buffs.
Seriously. WHO?
Automatically Appended Next Post: whoops I was trying to say, I jokingly wished for the buffs in the past lol
Honestly overall for the tournament scene it feels like a slight downgrade on power. Granted, given how solid eldar were before that means it's still a very strong book, just feels slightly less powerful than codex wave serpent.
The WK will either be "modified" or straight up banned based on Range D or being a GC.
As for the rest bikes are infinitely easier to kill than wave serpents. The removal of malefic is huge for how eldar currently work. Unlike current elder there will be a finite number of models now.
Most armies are going to be much, much better against eldar now. Will some builds be worse? Sure, happens with every codex. But some will be better too.
I'll wait to see how the whole thing fits together before making a decision on it's overall power level.
it seems to me that it will force people away from deathstars a little. it essentially gained i proved defence vs poison (probably needed) and stop, probably not needed.
the weapons arent blasts, so its 2 dead things a turn tops and those are only on 6's. Rending will become more useful again, genestealer resurgence?
kloma wrote: it seems to me that it will force people away from deathstars a little. it essentially gained i proved defence vs poison (probably needed) and stop, probably not needed.
the weapons arent blasts, so its 2 dead things a turn tops and those are only on 6's. Rending will become more useful again, genestealer resurgence?
Against Shuriken weapons and Scatter lasers?
Even if a Serpent shield is 1 use it's now 2D6 shots (average of 7) that ignore cover. This too will delete genestealers wholesale.
Genestealer resurgence? No, no no no. I'm not paying more points than a Marine for something with a 6+ save against an army packing multiple S5 and S6 shots.
Hulksmash wrote: Honestly overall for the tournament scene it feels like a slight downgrade on power. Granted, given how solid eldar were before that means it's still a very strong book, just feels slightly less powerful than codex wave serpent.
The WK will either be "modified" or straight up banned based on Range D or being a GC.
As for the rest bikes are infinitely easier to kill than wave serpents. The removal of malefic is huge for how eldar currently work. Unlike current elder there will be a finite number of models now.
Most armies are going to be much, much better against eldar now. Will some builds be worse? Sure, happens with every codex. But some will be better too.
I'll wait to see how the whole thing fits together before making a decision on it's overall power level.
So in a more powerful codex the Wave Serpent never got modified or straight up banned or restricted, but in a weaker codex you expect the WK to be modified or straight banned? In a game that already has Knights? I doubt it. It's better than a Knight, but it's still a Knight. It's also just one Knight, not 6 Knights in one army. If what you said was true the Eldar need a WK to be competitive. Also, a ban on ranged D would also mean a ban on Wraithguard, Support Platforms, Hemlock Wraithfighters, etc. If anything all of that stuff is better than the ranged D on the Wraithknight, but I can't see it happening.
The melee version won't be touched, although it will often have a cap of one per army. That said, the melee one is actually superior to the ranged one, so why would the ranged one be touched then? People have issues with Pulsars because they can wipe units, but what exactly is so outrageous in single shot D strength non template/blast weapons? 40K players have a very thick skin and will swallow this one and let it play.
As far as someone bringing up Hive Tyrants not being able to kill the Wraithknight goes -- Nobody is able to properly kill four Hive Tyrants. In fact the new Eldar won't be able to either. Flying monstrous creatures like HTs should've been modified or straight banned or restricted, especially as allies, but it hasn't happened, so...
As far as someone bringing up Hive Tyrants not being able to kill the Wraithknight goes -- Nobody is able to properly kill four Hive Tyrants. In fact the new Eldar won't be able to either. Flying monstrous creatures like HTs should've been modified or straight banned or restricted, especially as allies, but it hasn't happened, so...
Well the one positive thing about this new codex.
Might see more Crimson Hunters due to that formation and the lower cost. Might actually see HT actually have to *gasp* jink.
Hulksmash wrote: Honestly overall for the tournament scene it feels like a slight downgrade on power. Granted, given how solid eldar were before that means it's still a very strong book, just feels slightly less powerful than codex wave serpent.
The WK will either be "modified" or straight up banned based on Range D or being a GC.
As for the rest bikes are infinitely easier to kill than wave serpents. The removal of malefic is huge for how eldar currently work. Unlike current elder there will be a finite number of models now.
Most armies are going to be much, much better against eldar now. Will some builds be worse? Sure, happens with every codex. But some will be better too.
I'll wait to see how the whole thing fits together before making a decision on it's overall power level.
So in a more powerful codex the Wave Serpent never got modified or straight up banned or restricted, but in a weaker codex you expect the WK to be modified or straight banned? In a game that already has Knights? I doubt it. It's better than a Knight, but it's still a Knight. It's also just one Knight, not 6 Knights in one army. If what you said was true the Eldar need a WK to be competitive. Also, a ban on ranged D would also mean a ban on Wraithguard, Support Platforms, Hemlock Wraithfighters, etc. If anything all of that stuff is better than the ranged D on the Wraithknight, but I can't see it happening.
The melee version won't be touched, although it will often have a cap of one per army. That said, the melee one is actually superior to the ranged one, so why would the ranged one be touched then? People have issues with Pulsars because they can wipe units, but what exactly is so outrageous in single shot D strength non template/blast weapons? 40K players have a very thick skin and will swallow this one and let it play.
As far as someone bringing up Hive Tyrants not being able to kill the Wraithknight goes -- Nobody is able to properly kill four Hive Tyrants. In fact the new Eldar won't be able to either. Flying monstrous creatures like HTs should've been modified or straight banned or restricted, especially as allies, but it hasn't happened, so...
I probably wasn't clear and so you are arguing with something that I didn't say Since tournaments are a regional/national thing obviously there are going to be differences. My view was from the standpoint of the US tourney circuit and the ETC. The US tournament scene, with rare exception, has banned GC/LoW's or ranged D. Both take the WK out of OUR tournament circuit. Your events may be different and probably are. I was speaking strictly from our tournament scene.
I agree with you in the us scene ranged d will likely stay banned, although I think the ITC may allow the nerfed str d scythe for guardians. Platforms and hemlocks I think will also be banned. If they thought the Lynx was to powerful at 420 points? There is no way the rest of that stays legal. However I disagree with you stating elder will be weaker in the us tourney scene. Other then wave serpents everything else is just flat out better. The suncanon and assault d version wraithknight is still likely undercosted and extremely powerful and will likely stay legal. The assault d version is directly comparable to the knight lancer and horribly underpriced compared to it. Bikes while easier to kill then serpents are still extremely tough units and make up for that loss with speed and cheap mass firepower. I think even with tournanment bans on range str d elder should still stay on top.
Every local scene is different but at least by me Superheavy or garagatuan lord of wars are something most people discuss about playing wig beforehand And it's easy to politely ask someone not to play it.
Relapse wrote: Can someone who has them consolidated repost a collection of the rumors? It's a bit of slog picking through pages of whining to find the actual news.
gungo wrote: I agree with you in the us scene ranged d will likely stay banned, although I think the ITC may allow the nerfed str d scythe for guardians. Platforms and hemlocks I think will also be banned. If they thought the Lynx was to powerful at 420 points? There is no way the rest of that stays legal. However I disagree with you stating elder will be weaker in the us tourney scene. Other then wave serpents everything else is just flat out better. The suncanon and assault d version wraithknight is still likely undercosted and extremely powerful and will likely stay legal. The assault d version is directly comparable to the knight lancer and horribly underpriced compared to it. Bikes while easier to kill then serpents are still extremely tough units and make up for that loss with speed and cheap mass firepower. I think even with tournanment bans on range str d elder should still stay on top.
Every local scene is different but at least by me Superheavy or garagatuan lord of wars are something most people discuss about playing wig beforehand And it's easy to politely ask someone not to play it.
Wow. You think tournaments will just make that much of a codex illegal? I don't.
Iechine wrote: Tyranids can do nothing against a WK, shooting wise. 4 Flyrants shooting at it will do 1.58 wounds (960pts of standard flyrant loadouts)
We also cannot do anything combatwise.
People turn around and say bring our own. Earlier in the thread I made a beat the Wraithknight would be cheaper than any Tyranid Gargantuan creature (as our cheapest is a 560 point Hierodule).
I wasn't expecting it to be THAT MUCH CHEAPER.
The Wraithknight has superior stats across the board, superior weaponry, is a Jump creature...AND costs 250 points less?
And thanks to the Eldar detachment...for the tax of fielding your old Bike Spam List from 5th edition you get to field as many as these as you like!
Well played GW. Wel played.
Tyranids can do nothing to Eldar now. NOTHING.
Wilson - I wouoldn't touch Hierodules with a barge pole. They are by far the worst Gargantuan creatures in the game for what they do.
Nidzilla type casual lists will suffer heavily against the D-weapons but at the moment non-flying/burrowing Tyranid MC are already barely viable. In turn the Flyrants and Mawlocks benefit from shift in Eldar shooting from Wave Serpents to bikes.
gungo wrote: I agree with you in the us scene ranged d will likely stay banned, although I think the ITC may allow the nerfed str d scythe for guardians. Platforms and hemlocks I think will also be banned. If they thought the Lynx was to powerful at 420 points? There is no way the rest of that stays legal. However I disagree with you stating elder will be weaker in the us tourney scene. Other then wave serpents everything else is just flat out better. The suncanon and assault d version wraithknight is still likely undercosted and extremely powerful and will likely stay legal. The assault d version is directly comparable to the knight lancer and horribly underpriced compared to it. Bikes while easier to kill then serpents are still extremely tough units and make up for that loss with speed and cheap mass firepower. I think even with tournanment bans on range str d elder should still stay on top.
Every local scene is different but at least by me Superheavy or garagatuan lord of wars are something most people discuss about playing wig beforehand And it's easy to politely ask someone not to play it.
Wow. You think tournaments will just make that much of a codex illegal? I don't.
Yup it's better to adapt now and allow it, because the trend of strength D creeping into the books is likely to continue.
When you go too far and start banning multiple units or options from one fully legal main codex you've come to the point that you can't just stop there. Then you have to revise the whole game and every book. Maybe that's preferable, and I'd play tourneyhammer with community decided points costs and stuff, but unless it's a completely new and better version of the game I'll rather play with no restrictions at all. Moving the goal posts from one 'cheesy' army to another isn't productive in any way.
Just keep everything off the board , Jetbikes , Dark Reapers in Reserve walk on start killing fliers.
You're not going to kill a Wraithknight in 1 turn.
Dark Reapers have skyfire? My apologies but could you re-post or atleast link the information we have on the Crimson Hunters (and their formation) and the Dark Reapers.
Dark Reapers: Reroll to hit if target is: Flier, has turboboosted previous turn or moved flat out
Exarch: His weapon fires one more shot tan normally. For example: Heavy 2 becomes Heavy 3
My initial reaction was that the book is going to be too good, but after a month or two, players will settle in.
-The WK is too good, but as others have mentioned, most events allow only one LOW.
-The bikes put out absurd firepower, but they are still MEQ that can jink. A contemporary competitive build already has to be able to take out bike MEQ equivalents (Scars, Tomb Blades), MEQ (mass drop Marines), and T5 MEQ with 3++ (Wraiths, TWC).
-Mass ranged D seems bad for the game, but it just forces a shift. Strength D scares big bad units and deathstars, which are currently some of the 40k easy mode crutches anyway (Plaguestar, Ad Lances, Flyrants). Go MSU and laugh at the overkill.
My advice, go MSU (if you haven't already). It is more fun, takes more skill, and will throw a wrench into some of these Eldar builds. Build with newdar in mind. Finally, be the change. That sounds silly in 40k, but if you don't like Jetbikes/WK/Ranged D, don't use it. Making something strange work in a competitive setting was way more impressive than cookie-cutter nonsense. It keeps the game fresh--especially in an edition with a ton of untapped variety.
Dark Reapers: Reroll to hit if target is: Flier, has turboboosted previous turn or moved flat out
Exarch: His weapon fires one more shot tan normally. For example: Heavy 2 becomes Heavy 3
Oh wait they do.
They do? Are Hive Tyrants flyers? No. Do they turboboost? No. Do they move flat out? No.
Even if the Dark Reapers did re-roll hits vs them, the flak missile with its AP4 doesn't cause enough damage since the target has SV3. 5 guys with reaper launchers on the other hand with re-roll to hits would still just hit 3 times and wound once. The target could jink if it wanted for a save. What's the hype here? These guys suck just like always.
Hollismason wrote: LOL if you think you got enough fire power to kill something that has a invulnerable, 5+ FNP. 6 Wounds in 1 turn.
Cause the 2nd turn that thing is in CC. It's a Jump Gargantuan Creature, it will be in CC turn 2.
The same turn pretty much all those Jetbikes w/ ST6 and everything else comes on board.
Okay good luck with that.
This is all going to just be Eldar on Eldar in the competitive scene for the next forever. Cause Eldar can take it out.
If it has invuln then it's not shooting ranged D.
Even then it's going to be badly hurt or killed if it has to eat 1-2 turns of concentrated fire. Gauss? Dark lances? Lascannons? Grav guns? Even Krak missiles will hurt it. And it will be hurt by MCs in CC.
JGrand wrote: My initial reaction was that the book is going to be too good, but after a month or two, players will settle in.
-The WK is too good, but as others have mentioned, most events allow only one LOW.
-The bikes put out absurd firepower, but they are still MEQ that can jink. A contemporary competitive build already has to be able to take out bike MEQ equivalents (Scars, Tomb Blades), MEQ (mass drop Marines), and T5 MEQ with 3++ (Wraiths, TWC).
-Mass ranged D seems bad for the game, but it just forces a shift. Strength D scares big bad units and deathstars, which are currently some of the 40k easy mode crutches anyway (Plaguestar, Ad Lances, Flyrants). Go MSU and laugh at the overkill.
My advice, go MSU (if you haven't already). It is more fun, takes more skill, and will throw a wrench into some of these Eldar builds. Build with newdar in mind. Finally, be the change. That sounds silly in 40k, but if you don't like Jetbikes/WK/Ranged D, don't use it. Making something strange work in a competitive setting was way more impressive than cookie-cutter nonsense. It keeps the game fresh--especially in an edition with a ton of untapped variety.
1) We'll see about how they're ruled, pretty much every event has different rules for them ATM.
2) Most armies cannot deal with that much shooting. I don't think I've ever seen a list which can handle upwards of 120 S6 shots per turn and still have a meaningful turn afterwards. No other army has had close to that volume before, and we all know how incredible flyrants are with their 24 shots each. These jetbikes shoot more and are almost as durable. It's just insane.
3) What shift? How do you deal with Wraithguard easily for example? You can't shoot them particularly easily, as most small guns wound on a 6, and you absolutely can't assault them. What unit can tank auto-hitting 3+ poison AP2 flamers (which also do d3 wounds)? What vehicle survives after 1 HP damage per shot, plus AP2 rolls on the vehicle damage chart minimum? The only option is to stay away and try and outshoot them. If you try that then you are a) yielding board control (aka you lose) or b) going to lose the shoot out due to the above. MSU doesn't help when the Eldar player can just do the same exact thing.
I'm calling it right now - this is 40k's version of the Chaos Daemon disaster that all but killed fantasy. Maybe it won't kill 40k as much as there will be certain comp in place immediately, but this book is leagues above what anything else can do. With insufficient bans, all top armies at events are going to be Eldar. With too many bans, a large chunk of the player base will be unable to run their army (which is a popular one already).
One week left until we can be sure. I give it a month before people start seriously calling for total Eldar bans. Happened in Fantasy, will happen here too. You can quote me on that.
Did I miss some FAQ? If I did I'll apologise in advance. That said: They're an entirely separate category called Flying Monstrous Creature. The rulebook makes countless references to Flyers and Flying Monstrous Creatures separately. Even abilities that affect both always list that it affects both. For example: Skyfire: A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures and Skimmers, but it can only fire Snap Shots against other targets.
If Flying Monstrous Creatures are in fact Flyers why are they in fact called Flying Monstrous Creatures? Are Skimmers Flyers too? What about Infantry?
Calling it now. Bikes will keep relentless add 4 shots to any weapon fired, change movement speed to 175 and 1/2 inches. Gain a 2+ invulnerable any time they move and will gain 20d6 hammer of wrath attacks.
1) We'll see about how they're ruled, pretty much every event has different rules for them ATM.
Well, they have different rules because multiple LOW and mass ranged D are new issues. It is worth playtesting before making a knee-jerk decision. That being said, ITC is huge, and that has a trickle-down effect.
2) Most armies cannot deal with that much shooting. I don't think I've ever seen a list which can handle upwards of 120 S6 shots per turn and still have a meaningful turn afterwards. No other army has had close to that volume before, and we all know how incredible flyrants are with their 24 shots each. These jetbikes shoot more and are almost as durable. It's just insane.
With adequate terrain, this won't happen. I agree the firepower is unprecedented, but so were Tau/Eldar when they first dropped in 6th.
3) What shift? How do you deal with Wraithguard easily for example? You can't shoot them particularly easily, as most small guns wound on a 6, and you absolutely can't assault them. What unit can tank auto-hitting 3+ poison AP2 flamers (which also do d3 wounds)? What vehicle survives after 1 HP damage per shot, plus AP2 rolls on the vehicle damage chart minimum? The only option is to stay away and try and outshoot them. If you try that then you are a) yielding board control (aka you lose) or b) going to lose the shoot out due to the above. MSU doesn't help when the Eldar player can just do the same exact thing.
Drop Marines and mass grav will obliterate bike spam and Wraith spam. Also, we need to keep in mind just because Eldar has all of this, it doesn't mean they can take all of it in every list.
I'm calling it right now - this is 40k's version of the Chaos Daemon disaster that all but killed fantasy. Maybe it won't kill 40k as much as there will be certain comp in place immediately, but this book is leagues above what anything else can do. With insufficient bans, all top armies at events are going to be Eldar. With too many bans, a large chunk of the player base will be unable to run their army (which is a popular one already).
One week left until we can be sure. I give it a month before people start seriously calling for total Eldar bans. Happened in Fantasy, will happen here too. You can quote me on that.
I don't believe you will be correct. Make some lists using the new Eldar Dex. You can't have three WKs, 30 bikes, a mini Council, the cool/nifty aspects, and Wraithguard all in the same build. It is easy to get worried when you look at them as a whole, but there are point confines.
Grav will hurt them. Drop/reserve lists will hurt them. Anything that can tackle MEQ will hurt them. If I was a CSM player, I'd dust off those Helldrakes. There are ways to deal.
I'm not saying the book is perfectly fine, but it won't be game ending.
Wraithguard have never been particularly easy to keep alive or easy to get into threat range. Medium strength weapons of any AP, AP3, poison, etc really hurts them. They're very resistant to bolt guns yeah, but the guns that effectively kill them aren't exactly rare. The fact that wraithcannons are more potent doesn't change any of that.
Just keep everything off the board , Jetbikes , Dark Reapers in Reserve walk on start killing fliers.
You're not going to kill a Wraithknight in 1 turn.
I disagree. I'll match a Viper squadron of my DE carrying Trueborn with two splinter cannon added to the Venom's two. Five moving Vipers loaded like that can kick out 100 poison shots in a turn. Even if I have only three Venoms with Trueborn and warriors in the other two, they will still crack out more than enough to down even a six wound GC. This does not even bring into the equation the rest of my army.
Hollismason wrote: Until you put BS5 Skyfiring Dark Reapers that Reroll to hit vs fliers and ignore cover.
The unit can kill a Flyrant a turn.
Unless they've changed Reapers, they can't get Skyfire en masse. The EXARCH has been able to, but the Reapers themselves are limited to Starswarm (S5 AP3 Heavy2) or Starshot (S8 AP3) missiles. They can't take Flak. And unless Flyrants lose their 3+ armour save, it's not like a unit of Reapers is gonna be able to swat one down a turn even with Flak missiles, since those are AP4.
A full 10-man Reaper squad with Flak will do a bit more than 2 wounds on average. Leaving out the possibility of the Exarch firing Flak for the simplicity of the math, firing Starswarm they'll do about 2 wounds, firing Starshot they'll do almost 3.
Meanwhile, a Flyrant with twin Devourers and Regeneration (about the same cost as the Reapers if they don't buy Starshot, 80 poinst cheaper if they do) will be killing about 3 Reapers every time it shoots. And since it's a FMC and not a flyer, it can fire out of its ass and be shooting them every turn, and that exchange will typically end with the Reapers dead in 3 turns.
Sure, if you get lucky and plant them on a Skyfire Nexus they'll be downing any flyer in the game like clockwork, but that's not exactly something you can plan for, nor is it much of a change from the current situation.
Just keep everything off the board , Jetbikes , Dark Reapers in Reserve walk on start killing fliers.
You're not going to kill a Wraithknight in 1 turn.
I disagree. I'll match a Viper squadron of my DE carrying Trueborn with two splinter cannon added to the Venom's two. Five moving Vipers loaded like that can kick out 100 poison shots in a turn. Even if I have only three Venoms with Trueborn and warriors in the other two, they will still crack out more than enough to down even a six wound GC. This does not even bring into the equation the rest of my army.
2/3 hit, 1/6 wound, 1/3 get through armor, 2/3 get through fnp.
So roughly 2/81 chance per shot or 40 poison for one wound.
Relapse wrote: I disagree. I'll match a Viper squadron of my DE carrying Trueborn with two splinter cannon added to the Venom's two. Five moving Vipers loaded like that can kick out 100 poison shots in a turn. Even if I have only three Venoms with Trueborn and warriors in the other two, they will still crack out more than enough to down even a six wound GC. This does not even bring into the equation the rest of my army.
You appear to have overlooked how the GC rules work. Poison only wounds them on sixes.
Your 100 BS4 poison shots would do 2.5 wounds. Bring double that and you still haven't killed it.
Relapse wrote: I disagree. I'll match a Viper squadron of my DE carrying Trueborn with two splinter cannon added to the Venom's two. Five moving Vipers loaded like that can kick out 100 poison shots in a turn. Even if I have only three Venoms with Trueborn and warriors in the other two, they will still crack out more than enough to down even a six wound GC. This does not even bring into the equation the rest of my army.
You appear to have overlooked how the GC rules work. Poison only wounds them on sixes.
Your 100 BS4 poison shots would do 2.5 wounds. Bring double that and you still haven't killed it.
You have appeared to overlook the fact that I also mentioned the rest of my army would be on the table against a lone Wraithknight. His statement was that it could be on the table, alone and the rest of his army would just march on. On top of that, those are far from the only splinter weapons, or any type of weapon at all, in my DE army.
Raesvelg wrote: Sure, if you get lucky and plant them on a Skyfire Nexus they'll be downing any flyer in the game like clockwork, but that's not exactly something you can plan for, nor is it much of a change from the current situation.
Actually, this is how I see the entire new codex. All the very bad matchups with Eldar are still bad matchups, and the biggest trade is just wave serpents for jetbikes. The other stuff is only noise; Wraithguard will still kill the stuff they were killing and will still die to the things they were dying to; Wraithknights are still good at killing the things they were good at killing will still die to the units that killed them before.
Eldar were a strong codex before, and remain so. The people who claim that everyone is throwing away their armies and buying Eldar -- well, it's either hyperbole or GW is genius. Most people I know who are spendy are going to buy a box of jetbikes because we've been waiting 6 years for the model to come out, and that's about it. Our group of 6 regular gamers are all pretty serious collectors and collectively, we probably haven't gone one month in the last 10 years where we spent less than $3,000 at the hobby shop, yet nobody has gone out to order up 10 boxes of bikes, a half dozen wraithknights, or stockpiles of wraithguard. I don't even know if there's 10 boxes of bikes between all of us.
Naw wrote:
niv-mizzet wrote: <--- just got an entirely mediocre new codex right before a couple brand new PowerBooks came out.
Sad days ahead for me as far as competitive games go. :(
I guess we BA players just need to adopt new tactics!! Ooh the imbaness of our codex. I'll smack them with my formations.
I'm actually really happy at where Blood Angels are today, and glad that I chose them at the end of last year to be the faction that I'm modelling (it's my 6th faction, though 3 of those are way outdated and no longer playable... including Eldar lol). It's not the most powerful army, and it doesn't have an answer to everything (without allies), but that's just fine with me. It's fun to play, highly unique, and has a variety of flexible tools that differ from vanilla marines, Wolves, and Grey Knights. And the models rock!
I will happily concede though, if it is your ONLY faction, your first faction, or you just want to get a good win ratio, Blood Angels are a poor choice. But it's not like everyone didn't know this going in.
I'm also not really super crazy about the new War host (though time will tell, I guess), as the Guardian Hosts are quite restrictive (you MUST take x y z). If you go CAD, you again are limited to one WK.
Really? Restrictive?
The Windrider one is a copy-paste of the average meta Eldar army prior to the 6th edition codex.
Farseer on bike? Check.
Warlocks on bikes? Check.
Bikes? Check.
Vypers? Check.
It's not really that restrictive. It means you have to dust off some models you put on the shelf for the Wraithknight and Serpent bandwagon and actually use them again.
Funny, I've been playing competitively for 15 years and can count on one hand the number of opponents I've seen using vypers...
I'm also not really super crazy about the new War host (though time will tell, I guess), as the Guardian Hosts are quite restrictive (you MUST take x y z). If you go CAD, you again are limited to one WK.
Really? Restrictive?
The Windrider one is a copy-paste of the average meta Eldar army prior to the 6th edition codex.
Farseer on bike? Check. Warlocks on bikes? Check. Bikes? Check. Vypers? Check.
It's not really that restrictive. It means you have to dust off some models you put on the shelf for the Wraithknight and Serpent bandwagon and actually use them again.
For example: - I don't like how you must take Vypers for ANY of the guardian hosts - If you want to mix Guardians and Windriders, that's impossible without taking two separate guardian hosts and a bunch of stuff that possibly you don't want. - The Wraithknight being Gargantuan Lord of War makes highly restrictive in the tournament scene (it will be restricted to 1 per army). - The only way to get Wraithguard is to take Wraith Host; that forces you to take THREE units of Wraithguard, a wraithlord, a wraithknight (and a spiritseer): that's 965 points with no upgrades! - If you want any Aspect Warriors, you need to take THREE units (though you can mix and match). - The only way to take crimson hunters is to take THREE? I mean... why?
I'm not saying that these are "bad". It's just that because each option is a high point value, you'll get 1 guardian host, 1 regents, and 1-2 of the optionals. Like, if you want Wraithguard means you choose a guardian host -- you'd probably choose windrider -- and a hero. If you fill up the windriders, there are all your points. If not, you get to pick 1 other thing.
The Windrider one is a copy-paste of the average meta Eldar army prior to the 6th edition codex.
Farseer on bike? Check. Warlocks on bikes? Check. Bikes? Check. Vypers? Check.
It's not really that restrictive. It means you have to dust off some models you put on the shelf for the Wraithknight and Serpent bandwagon and actually use them again.
It is restrictive in the sense that people are claiming that an Eldar army can have 30 obj sec Scatterbikes, three WK, a psystar that casts on a 3+, and other goodies all at once.
If we go off the rumors, taking a Bikeseer, 3 Bikelocks, 3x3 Scatbikes, and a Viper is close to 600 points. Add three WK to the list and we are closing in on 1500. Even adding 13 more Scat Bikes to the mix and we have:
There isn't too much variety here. While some may claim that variety isn't needed in a list like this, let's be serious--if one can kill 26 MEQ and a Viper, the opponent is left with three (admittedly strong) units. That still doesn't win an objective game though. Moreover, a list like this will go down hard to Grav Bikes+two units of drop pod Cents.
Again--Eldar are going to be very strong. They are going to force people to readjust. They are also probably not the end of 40k.
LOL is you don't think this has just completely broken competitive play and is going to have a negative impact all around.
Okay in order to fix competitive play you have to:
1. Not allow LOW cause the shimmershield STD weapon Wraithknight is broken as well
2. Not Allow Wraithguard cause WWP Archon w/ Wraithguard w/ Scythes will annihilate
3. Not Allow Hemlock Fighters , a 185 point flying , Level 2 psyker w/ 2 D Weapons
4. Not Allow the Eldar Warhost selection
5. Not Allow D-Cannon Batteries
Okay now you have to deal with everyone who's going to
1. Be pissed off that you've basically told them what they can't play out of their basic army book
2. Have players who play against 30 Jetbikes w/ 120 Shots of ST6 be pissed off
It's a no win situation
You're flyrants are not going to stick around with 120 Shots of ST6 coming at them guided. I don't care. "Oh I'll get the jump on them. " No you won't they'll sit in reserve with a Autarch then come on board turn 2 and take everything you own off the board.
LOL is you don't think this has just completely broken competitive play and is going to have a negative impact all around.
Competitive play will be fine. It hurts casual play far more.
Most events have restrictions in play for Superheavies/LOW/Gargantuan anyway. Just ban them all. And it is my opinion that IK should fall into that category as well.
Ranged D flamers aren't a big deal due to the -1. Ranged D hurts some units, but it doesn't scare MSU all that much if built correctly. One actually has to get the expensive Wraithguard close as well--something that isn't easy.
The book is going to be strong. You will see it a ton on top tables. You already see the 6th ed version around, and Serpents/Daemon summoning Seer Council was already a PITA for most armies. It will be fine.
Hahahaha It's a Jump Gargantuan Creature, it can in fact move 12" and AFAIK still run. What do you mean they have trouble getting there? Expensive it's 295 points, that's not expensive.
It's a negative all around.
1. You piss off the Eldar players who want to play with the stuff that's in their book.
2. You piss off the players who do not want to play against it if you allow them their choices.
D-Scythes inflict D3 Wounds on a 3+ with Templates that are AP2 and simply erase vehicles from the board. Yeah that's totally balanced because it get's a -1.
Hahahaha It's a Jump Gargantuan Creature, it can in fact move 12" and AFAIK still run. What do you mean they have trouble getting there?
I was talking about the Wraithguard. I mentioned that I'd imagine Gargantuan/LOW/Superheavies will continue to face restrictions. Restrictions that are nothing new. How is this a problem?
It's a negative all around.
1. You piss off the Eldar players who want to play with the stuff that's in their book.
2. You piss off the players who do not want to play against it if you allow them their choices.
The 12" D shots on expensive 3+ save models? The D flamers that can't roll the 6? Those things aren't that bad. Mind you, I'd rather not have D in regular 40k, but it isn't that scary if you re-think how to build.
Yeah you're right , it's totally cool Eldar can take a Weapons Battery of D-Cannons that can have Preferred Enemy.
Wraithguard are not expensive considering they come standard with a ST D weapon.
The codex is incredibly OP, especially when you start getting into the crazy Ally Battle Brother situations.
Make the unbeatable list then.
Yes, they are going to be the top dog. They are already debatably the top dog if we go off TOF metadata. They aren't so good that they auto-win or force everyone to use them. You can quote me on that if you'd like. MSU is the answer IMO.
Is it also news to you that you can take multiple CAD each with a LOW?
I should clarify--I have been posting and almost exclusively post about competitive play. I don't care what kind of nonsense people run in basement hammer. In most events, players are restricted to two-three sources and no duplicates.
Coincidentally, you just furthered the point that an unbalanced game hurts the casual crowd more. TOs will come together to make reasonable restrictions. Friendly games are the wild west.
My vote in all of this is just to ban all Superheavies/Gargantuan creatures (including IKs). Solves most problems easily.
New Eldar are not unbeatable and some of the changes are good and necessary.
But GW got overboard and has shown more evidently than ever that there is no play-testing and no quality control involved.
Many people who are angry, simply wish for a quality game which GW can't deliver.
New Eldar are not unbeatable and some of the changes are good and necessary.
But GW got overboard and has shown more evidently than ever that there is no play-testing and no quality control involved.
Many people who are angry, simply wish for a quality game which GWcan't deliver.
JGrand wrote: My initial reaction was that the book is going to be too good, but after a month or two, players will settle in.
-The WK is too good, but as others have mentioned, most events allow only one LOW.
-The bikes put out absurd firepower, but they are still MEQ that can jink. A contemporary competitive build already has to be able to take out bike MEQ equivalents (Scars, Tomb Blades), MEQ (mass drop Marines), and T5 MEQ with 3++ (Wraiths, TWC).
-Mass ranged D seems bad for the game, but it just forces a shift. Strength D scares big bad units and deathstars, which are currently some of the 40k easy mode crutches anyway (Plaguestar, Ad Lances, Flyrants). Go MSU and laugh at the overkill.
My advice, go MSU (if you haven't already). It is more fun, takes more skill, and will throw a wrench into some of these Eldar builds. Build with newdar in mind. Finally, be the change. That sounds silly in 40k, but if you don't like Jetbikes/WK/Ranged D, don't use it. Making something strange work in a competitive setting was way more impressive than cookie-cutter nonsense. It keeps the game fresh--especially in an edition with a ton of untapped variety.
You see, this is how you make a rational intelligent post. I agree wholeheartedly, it's posts like Mortetvie suggesting that anyone having issue with the confirmed imbalances needs to L2P that get thrown back at its origin.
That said, this book still gaks on all the previous 7th books aside from Necrons, which is a major source for peoples frustrations.
Is it also news to you that you can take multiple CAD each with a LOW?
I should clarify--I have been posting and almost exclusively post about competitive play. I don't care what kind of nonsense people run in basement hammer. In most events, players are restricted to two-three sources and no duplicates.
Coincidentally, you just furthered the point that an unbalanced game hurts the casual crowd more. TOs will come together to make reasonable restrictions. Friendly games are the wild west.
My vote in all of this is just to ban all Superheavies/Gargantuan creatures (including IKs). Solves most problems easily.
Even with Only two cad, that's 2 WK pretty easy with a minimal troop:hq investment.
Or take the minimum wind rider and 1-12 WK.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That being said, I'm just nitpicking. I largely agree with most of what jgrand said.
Is it also news to you that you can take multiple CAD each with a LOW?
I should clarify--I have been posting and almost exclusively post about competitive play. I don't care what kind of nonsense people run in basement hammer. In most events, players are restricted to two-three sources and no duplicates.
Coincidentally, you just furthered the point that an unbalanced game hurts the casual crowd more. TOs will come together to make reasonable restrictions. Friendly games are the wild west.
My vote in all of this is just to ban all Superheavies/Gargantuan creatures (including IKs). Solves most problems easily.
Even with Only two cad, that's 2 WK pretty easy with a minimal troop:hq investment.
Or take the minimum wind rider and 1-12 WK.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That being said, I'm just nitpicking. I largely agree with most of what jgrand said.
While I also agree I think it is important to distinguish the differences in the game he is advocating. Competitive 40k simply does not exist. House ruled, comp'd to hell and back 40k is what we are left with and that makes for serious inconsistencies between regions. That's why I always consider it an argument made from false authority when someone prefaces a post with, I am a seasoned top table GT player. Who cares? It's irrelevant when you consider how much variation exists from book to book, then you have to multiply it by: regional comps, missions, terrain etc etc. The TO's can't even decide how many CAD's to allow between tournaments.
Even if ITC comes up with some middle ground, this book craps all over true 40k. Which is real;ly saying something because normal 40k was already a troublesome ruleset.
Is it also news to you that you can take multiple CAD each with a LOW?
I should clarify--I have been posting and almost exclusively post about competitive play. I don't care what kind of nonsense people run in basement hammer. In most events, players are restricted to two-three sources and no duplicates.
Coincidentally, you just furthered the point that an unbalanced game hurts the casual crowd more. TOs will come together to make reasonable restrictions. Friendly games are the wild west.
My vote in all of this is just to ban all Superheavies/Gargantuan creatures (including IKs). Solves most problems easily.
Even with Only two cad, that's 2 WK pretty easy with a minimal troop:hq investment.
Or take the minimum wind rider and 1-12 WK.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That being said, I'm just nitpicking. I largely agree with most of what jgrand said.
If you take the minimum windrider and 1-12 WK, you can't take Wraithguard. If you take Wraithguard, you sink almost 1000 points there, add your rider host, and you have no space for more Wraithknights. If you take CAD, you can only take 1 WK.
So no matter how you cut it, the only way you can spam Wraithknights and windriders, is to take Windrider Host and 1-12 Wraithknights. You could supplement Windriders by allying a CAD or allied detachment. I'm not saying it's not strong, it's just "restrictive". It is physically without going unbound to spam wraithkinghts, wraithguard, and windriders in 1850 points as some people suggest. Not that I think that's all that brilliant anyhow.
Because it's a Guargantuan LoW... as I've said over.. and over... and over... That means max 1 per tournament, whereas before, you could take as many old, 240 point WK as you wanted. And before, you could take as multiple WK in a CAD, whereas now, you can't. Is the new WK better? Of course, but chances are, you'll just be fielding 1.
Regarding casual play, I don't think it will hurt casual play at all, except "TFG" -- the same guy who loved the wave serpent model SO much that he had to go out and buy 6 will now love the new Windrider model SO much that he has to go buy 15 boxes. And he's really just looking for newbs to stomp, because he gets all pissy if someone beats him.
Is it also news to you that you can take multiple CAD each with a LOW?
I should clarify--I have been posting and almost exclusively post about competitive play.
*snip*
My vote in all of this is just to ban all Superheavies/Gargantuan creatures (including IKs). Solves most problems easily.
Most every big event I've seen the rules posted allows two sources/detachments so that means two gargantuan WK.
As for the last part, I agree. I'm unabashedly critical of the post 6e army style and strongly prefer on faction in one detachment with no superheavies, gargs, forts beyond aegis. or fliers in "normal" 40k games of 2k pts or less..
While I also agree I think it is important to distinguish the differences in the game he is advocating. Competitive 40k simply does not exist. House ruled, comp'd to hell and back 40k is what we are left with and that makes for serious inconsistencies between regions. That's why I always consider it an argument made from false authority when someone prefaces a post with, I am a seasoned top table GT player. Who cares? It's irrelevant when you consider how much variation exists from book to book, then you have to multiply it by: regional comps, missions, terrain etc etc. The TO's can't even decide how many CAD's to allow between tournaments.
Even if ITC comes up with some middle ground, this book craps all over true 40k. Which is real;ly saying something because normal 40k was already a troublesome ruleset.
The game is troublesome for people who play to win, only want to play RAW, and aren't considerate of their opponents. It is harder for these folks than 6e, because building and painting 40 jetbikes is WAY more effort than building and painting 6 wave serpents.
The game is fine in the tournament scene where such things are fixed; it's fine in the casual scene where players are, you know, reasonable human beings; and it's certainly fine as a game to play between friends competitively -- in the sense that you WANT to win, but that it isn't the ONLY thing that matters.
Is it also news to you that you can take multiple CAD each with a LOW?
I should clarify--I have been posting and almost exclusively post about competitive play.
*snip*
My vote in all of this is just to ban all Superheavies/Gargantuan creatures (including IKs). Solves most problems easily.
Most every big event I've seen the rules posted allows two sources/detachments so that means two gargantuan WK.
As for the last part, I agree. I'm unabashedly critical of the post 6e army style and strongly prefer on faction in one detachment with no superheavies, gargs, forts beyond aegis. or fliers in "normal" 40k games of 2k pts or less..
Most tournaments are 2 CAD, and they can't be identical (including taking two Decurion style of the same faction). And ITC are 1 Superheavy or Gargantuan LoW.
I think having 1 big monster on the table is pretty cool, myself... and for me, awesomeness on the table is very important
Hahahaha It's a Jump Gargantuan Creature, it can in fact move 12" and AFAIK still run. What do you mean they have trouble getting there?
I was talking about the Wraithguard. I mentioned that I'd imagine Gargantuan/LOW/Superheavies will continue to face restrictions. Restrictions that are nothing new. How is this a problem?
It's a negative all around.
1. You piss off the Eldar players who want to play with the stuff that's in their book.
2. You piss off the players who do not want to play against it if you allow them their choices.
The 12" D shots on expensive 3+ save models? The D flamers that can't roll the 6? Those things aren't that bad. Mind you, I'd rather not have D in regular 40k, but it isn't that scary if you re-think how to build.
You mean the 12" SD shots on T6, 3+ save models that can be transported across the field in a Fast Skimmer?
While I also agree I think it is important to distinguish the differences in the game he is advocating. Competitive 40k simply does not exist. House ruled, comp'd to hell and back 40k is what we are left with and that makes for serious inconsistencies between regions. That's why I always consider it an argument made from false authority when someone prefaces a post with, I am a seasoned top table GT player. Who cares? It's irrelevant when you consider how much variation exists from book to book, then you have to multiply it by: regional comps, missions, terrain etc etc. The TO's can't even decide how many CAD's to allow between tournaments.
Even if ITC comes up with some middle ground, this book craps all over true 40k. Which is real;ly saying something because normal 40k was already a troublesome ruleset.
The game is troublesome for people who play to win
It's very hard to take you seriously when you make posts containing this.
The Windrider one is a copy-paste of the average meta Eldar army prior to the 6th edition codex.
Farseer on bike? Check.
Warlocks on bikes? Check.
Bikes? Check.
Vypers? Check.
It's not really that restrictive. It means you have to dust off some models you put on the shelf for the Wraithknight and Serpent bandwagon and actually use them again.
It is restrictive in the sense that people are claiming that an Eldar army can have 30 obj sec Scatterbikes, three WK, a psystar that casts on a 3+, and other goodies all at once.
If we go off the rumors, taking a Bikeseer, 3 Bikelocks, 3x3 Scatbikes, and a Viper is close to 600 points. Add three WK to the list and we are closing in on 1500. Even adding 13 more Scat Bikes to the mix and we have:
There isn't too much variety here. While some may claim that variety isn't needed in a list like this, let's be serious--if one can kill 26 MEQ and a Viper, the opponent is left with three (admittedly strong) units. That still doesn't win an objective game though. Moreover, a list like this will go down hard to Grav Bikes+two units of drop pod Cents.
Again--Eldar are going to be very strong. They are going to force people to readjust. They are also probably not the end of 40k.
You've added 3 WKs to the list. That is already more than enough and that's 1500 points. Average games are now about 1850. You can add another if you want and have points spare. Or you could add an Imperial Knight for comedy value just to make your opponent deal with 3 GCs with ranged SD, massed S6 firepower (Oh hey, hordes counter SD right? Stomp plus 18 shots per bike unit says....) and the Knight's assorted ordnance.
The problem with a blanket ban on Superheavies/Gargantuans? It hits the characters and Monstrous Creatures that have randomly been stuck there. The problem with a points cap for LoWs or whatever? GW do silly things and underpoint units like the WK by an obscene amount. The problem with banning specific units from specific books? It feels like you're pretty much victimising one player over another because their army won the GW Edition Power Lottery (Chaos Space Marines 3.5 - there, I said it. UNLEASH THE HATE).
I honestly feel that the addition of Superheavies and Gargantuan Creatures was not needed for 'normal' 40k. I disliked Escalation but at least it pretended to try to balance it by giving the alternative Warlord traits that boosted things up. 7th ed made no effort to do so.
And yeah, it is a Power Lottery.
But I'll tell you one thing. I bet in 3 editions time Chaos 3.5 will still be spoken in a voice reserved only for criminals, fiends and politicians and no one will remember Eldar 7.
mercury14 wrote: Yriel? Any news on poor old Yriel? I painted him so nicely!
From what I recall, what little was said is that a.) he exists, b.) he doesn't have a D weapon, and c.) he gives his full-time precision shots rule to the unit of Rangers that he's with. Pathfinders appear to be out.
mercury14 wrote: Yriel? Any news on poor old Yriel? I painted him so nicely!
From what I recall, what little was said is that a.) he exists, b.) he doesn't have a D weapon, and c.) he gives his full-time precision shots rule to the unit of Rangers that he's with. Pathfinders appear to be out.
Uh....wrong SC there I think. Yriel is the Corsair prince. Ya'll be thinking Ilric there (or whatever his name is).
mercury14 wrote: Yriel? Any news on poor old Yriel? I painted him so nicely!
From what I recall, what little was said is that a.) he exists, b.) he doesn't have a D weapon, and c.) he gives his full-time precision shots rule to the unit of Rangers that he's with. Pathfinders appear to be out.
I think that's Illic you're thinking of.
Yriel... I haven't heard a peep of an update on him....
mercury14 wrote: Yriel? Any news on poor old Yriel? I painted him so nicely!
From what I recall, what little was said is that a.) he exists, b.) he doesn't have a D weapon, and c.) he gives his full-time precision shots rule to the unit of Rangers that he's with. Pathfinders appear to be out.
Uh....wrong SC there I think. Yriel is the Corsair prince. Ya'll be thinking Ilric there (or whatever his name is).
It's fun to see that Hollismason has shut up about the Dark Reapers after saying this:
Hollismason wrote:Flyrants are in fact Flyers.
I mean if you get stuff like that wrong and then choose to just silently change the topic of the discussion it'd be more proper if you just walked away instead of kept rambling about something else.
Therion wrote: It's fun to see that Hollismason has shut up about the Dark Reapers after saying this:
Hollismason wrote:Flyrants are in fact Flyers.
I mean if you get stuff like that wrong and then choose to just silently change the topic of the discussion it'd be more proper if you just walked away instead of kept rambling about something else.
If he left, then why are you still bringing it up?
New Eldar are not unbeatable and some of the changes are good and necessary.
But GW got overboard and has shown more evidently than ever that there is no play-testing and no quality control involved.
Many people who are angry, simply wish for a quality game which GWcan't deliver.
Its a lottery that Eldar keep on winning (and some armies like Dark Angels never win)
But I'll tell you one thing. I bet in 3 editions time Chaos 3.5 will still be spoken in a voice reserved only for criminals, fiends and politicians and no one will remember Eldar 7.
I will take you up on that bet. I think this is worse than 3.5 - true 3.5 had plenty of broken stuff but also plenty of reasonably balanced and even overpriced stuff. You didnt have to try hard to make a balancedlist like you do with this one.
I mean if you get stuff like that wrong and then choose to just silently change the topic of the discussion it'd be more proper if you just walked away instead of kept rambling about something else.
EVen if he is wrong, we dont have the full rules yet, only abridged. Reapers might still have the ability.
Therion wrote: It's fun to see that Hollismason has shut up about the Dark Reapers after saying this:
Hollismason wrote:Flyrants are in fact Flyers.
I mean if you get stuff like that wrong and then choose to just silently change the topic of the discussion it'd be more proper if you just walked away instead of kept rambling about something else.
If he left, then why are you still bringing it up?
Because he didn't? Reading comprehension? The previous page is littered with his spam about Dark Reapers countering Tyrants when it's both false and based on a rule he doesn't understand. It puts his ability as a 40K gamer in question, and it's hard to take his following spam about Wraithguard and Wraithknights being overpowered and uncounterable very seriously. JGrand on the other hand is a known commodity who knows the ins and outs of this game, and yet he has to defend himself against assailants who can't even grasp the rules of the game.
Its a lottery that Eldar keep on winning (and some armies like Dark Angels never win)
But I'll tell you one thing. I bet in 3 editions time Chaos 3.5 will still be spoken in a voice reserved only for criminals, fiends and politicians and no one will remember Eldar 7.
I will take you up on that bet. I think this is worse than 3.5 - true 3.5 had plenty of broken stuff but also plenty of reasonably balanced and even overpriced stuff. You didnt have to try hard to make a balancedlist like you do with this one.
Eh, I don't know about that.
Let's be honest here. After Chaos 3.5 we got...
A travesty of a Codex in 4th edition
A codex in 6th edition that seemed 'okay' - and after seeing Dark Angels and Daemons we thought...hey, that's their new power balance....then the Taudar Nation attacked.
We also got to Witness 4th Ed. Space Marines (which was basically Chaos 3.5 with the word Chaos removed).
I still feel like I'm paying for the Sins of Haines.
Chaos 3.5 was THE best codex that GW ever released. It had awesome fluff, interesting rules. The only reason people rant about it was that it was "too complicated ". To even talk about it in the same breath as the new Eldar book is crazy.
Its a lottery that Eldar keep on winning (and some armies like Dark Angels never win)
But I'll tell you one thing. I bet in 3 editions time Chaos 3.5 will still be spoken in a voice reserved only for criminals, fiends and politicians and no one will remember Eldar 7.
I will take you up on that bet. I think this is worse than 3.5 - true 3.5 had plenty of broken stuff but also plenty of reasonably balanced and even overpriced stuff. You didnt have to try hard to make a balancedlist like you do with this one.
Eh, I don't know about that.
Let's be honest here. After Chaos 3.5 we got...
A travesty of a Codex in 4th edition
A codex in 6th edition that seemed 'okay' - and after seeing Dark Angels and Daemons we thought...hey, that's their new power balance....then the Taudar Nation attacked.
We also got to Witness 4th Ed. Space Marines (which was basically Chaos 3.5 with the word Chaos removed).
I still feel like I'm paying for the Sins of Haines.
Therion wrote: It's fun to see that Hollismason has shut up about the Dark Reapers after saying this:
Hollismason wrote:Flyrants are in fact Flyers.
I mean if you get stuff like that wrong and then choose to just silently change the topic of the discussion it'd be more proper if you just walked away instead of kept rambling about something else.
If he left, then why are you still bringing it up?
Because he didn't? Reading comprehension? The previous page is littered with his spam about Dark Reapers countering Tyrants when it's both false and based on a rule he doesn't understand. It puts his ability as a 40K gamer in question, and it's hard to take his following spam about Wraithguard and Wraithknights being overpowered and uncounterable very seriously. JGrand on the other hand is a known commodity who knows the ins and outs of this game, and yet he has to defend himself against assailants who can't even grasp the rules of the game.
Right, and Hollismason seems (since I can't speak for him) to have taken the point and stopped posting about it. The topic ended until you felt the need to keep kicking sand in his direction. Should he had continued after that, sure go ahead, continue to prove his points (and apparently his knowledge since this seems to be a 40k knowledge-swinging party) wrong. Otherwise just leave it alone.
pretre wrote: So he deploys on the table instead, not that big a deal.
The point is that there seems to be the thought in that particular post a Wraith knight is so powerful it can stand alone for a turn against a full army's shooting. This is pretty much in line with most of the hyperbole in this thread about how unbeatable Wraith Knights are.
pretre wrote: So he deploys on the table instead, not that big a deal.
The point is that there seems to be the thought in that particular post a Wraith knight is so powerful it can stand alone for a turn against a full army's shooting. This is pretty much in line with most of the hyperbole in this thread about how unbeatable Wraith Knights are.
Since the new wraithknight was killed by 2 surviving deathwing knights in GW's faceoff, I would hardly say that it's unbeatable
pretre wrote: So he deploys on the table instead, not that big a deal.
The point is that there seems to be the thought in that particular post a Wraith knight is so powerful it can stand alone for a turn against a full army's shooting. This is pretty much in line with most of the hyperbole in this thread about how unbeatable Wraith Knights are.
Since the new wraithknight was killed by 2 surviving deathwing knights in GW's faceoff, I would hardly say that it's unbeatable
That's it, right on the button. I saw an Eldar army fielding three Wraithknights lose them all to Ork close combat by turn six, sealing an Ork victory. That particular game is on youtube.
pretre wrote: So he deploys on the table instead, not that big a deal.
The point is that there seems to be the thought in that particular post a Wraith knight is so powerful it can stand alone for a turn against a full army's shooting. This is pretty much in line with most of the hyperbole in this thread about how unbeatable Wraith Knights are.
To be fair, neither my Death Korps nor Marine army could kill a Wraithknight with an entire turn of shooting, even within decent range. T8 6 wounds, 3+, what is it, 4 or 5++? Immune to all small arms, so out of my 1750 IG force my two battlecannons can theoretically hurt it, as can my vanquisher (used to one shot them with Beast Slayer rounds - my IG may not be good, but by the throne, they hurt Eldar, or used to), and I have a smattering of special weapons.
If everything was in range, my entire force could use the following
1 S:8 Ap3 large blast (BS4)
1 S8 AP3 7'' blast (TL)
1 S:8 Ap2 direct shot or small blast (with instant death, which does nothing) (BS4)
2 S:9 Ap2 shots (one TL)
2 S:8 Ap1 shots
4: S:6 Ap4 shots
7 Krak Grenades
4 S7 AP2 shots (BS4)
With absolutely everything in my army capable of hurting a wraithknight unloading (within grande throwing range mind you - many of these are 24'' range or less weapons) I would do 2.213244 wounds to the Wraithknight. Tha't s calculating with a 5++, as I don't recall its saves overly well, and no FNP which is apparently readily achievable. (I also assumed the blasts hit, as the probability for that is something I don't feel like calculating, and the WK has a large footprint - I also made a mistake in all the St 6 Ap4 were calculated against a 5+, not the 3+ the WK would be getting).
And that's a Guard list with three Leman Russes (Vanquisher, Battle Tank, Annihilator), a Macharius Battle Tank (A "Superheavy" more expensive than a Wraithknight with a TL battle cannon with a 7'' blast, two HBs and two Heavy Stubbers, one twin-linked), two infantry platoons with three infantry sections each and a command section all with specials (half flamer, half grenade with a melta in each), a Grenadier squad with two plasma guns and a decked out command squad with a big leadership bubble and granted PE: Infantry to units near him. Not an optimal army to be sure, but at 1750 it will do 2 wounds on average to a 295 point model.
You know what else is in that price range?
Abaddon, and I murder the hell out of him if he were on his own. Hell, I'll knock out Stompas with a few decent rolls in a turn (or one really lucky HK missile....), which is700 points. Having a wraithknight tank an army is a totally legitimate expectation, I'd wager - what can possible kill one at range, and of those who can engage it in melee, what are the odds they won't die in return?
And yet, Orks were able to tear down three in one game. I'm not being snarky or dismissing your experience here, but based from what I've seen in multiple games I am stating that these critters are not unbeatable.
Relapse wrote: And yet, Orks were able to tear down three in one game. I'm not being snarky or dismissing your experience here, but based from what I've seen in multiple games I am stating that these critters are not unbeatable.
I think he is describing trying to shoot one to death in a single turn before reserves show up. Killing one or more over the course of ~6 or so turns is not hard at all. Also, those orks would get murdered now with stop attacks, wouldn't even be close.
First off the guy posted that they worked against FLIERS, we don't know what that means, but it's gonna be pretty dumb if they can shoot Flying Vehicles and not Flying Monstrous Creatures.
He lumped anything that flies into one category.
So I'm assuming they work against all fliers, which as a word used can be applied to Flying Monstrous Creatures.
They are Fliers, They Fly, what do Flying Monstrous Creatures do?
Says so right in the name, they Fly.
Until he comes out and says " No, it is only flying vehicles or Flyer" then we should assume that he means all Fliers as that's easier than assuming he just means Vehicles or Monstrous Creatures, or anything that uses the Flight rule.
Edit:
Wraithknights are horribly broken. They're undercosted and even if you don't use the STD shooting weapon and instead go for the STD Sword and Shield , it's still brokenly powerful.
gak like that ruins the game for competitive , pick up, and Friendly games.
I should not have to have a sit down with my opponent before a game and agree to only use certain units in order to have a good time.
That's not the same as saying, I want everything to be easy. It's saying there shouldn't have to be a "discussion" on how if you play a specific army , a specific way I don't want ot play with you and it will be unenjoyable.
The onus shouldn't be on the player to have to carefully pick his army so that he won't pick something that's going to make his opponent feel bad. He should just be able to pick units and play a game that on both sides is balanced.
It's on the game designer to make a game, that is easy to play, easy to understand, fun to play.
It's not on you the player to fix the game designers mistakes.
Guys I used to play WK's and I can tell you they are far from unbeatable. Centurions eat them for lunch, stern guard that DS eat them for lunch, Ork loots eat tem for lunch, surprisingly wrecks do pretty good against hem in CC, Several DSDE units with lance weapons crush them, and Grey Knights torture them. I have also played against them and still don't find them as a hard nut to crack as I am hearing here. People prepared to play against Knights will have the same luck against the WK.
All you people crying about the Eldar codex....have you played against the Necron decurion? Four rounds from my DE and I think I finally killed a few models. Adjust and adapt. Knights were the "unbeatable list" and "broken" until people adapted....now they are no big deal. As for the people screaming they refuse to play Eldar.... I hope I get you in a tournament...means more beer time and points for me.
I tried wading through the tirade of tears in this topic but could not find anything on the avatar. Is he now considered a LOW and if so any stat changes for him? I miss fielding my avatar. Any data on the Vyper yet?
MajorStoffer wrote: Having a wraithknight tank an army is a totally legitimate expectation, I'd wager - what can possible kill one at range, and of those who can engage it in melee, what are the odds they won't die in return?
CentStar should pretty much wipe one off the map, and that's a pretty popular build right now.
Entertainingly, a Dire Avenger Shrine formation from the new Warhost set for Eldar can swat one down if you take 10 DAs in each squad. Sure, that's 30 Dire Avengers, and you'll need to be driving them up Wave Serpents to make the range, which is WAY more points than the Wraithknight is worth, but it's entertaining. Could probably manage it with smaller squads when you factor in the Wave Serpents (particularly Brightlance Serps if those make a comeback since Laser Lock appears to be gone), but I just like the idea of doing it strictly with Bladestorm.
30 Skitarii Vanguard can kill it with just radium shots, and that's actually cheaper than the WK. Marginally. Plus their big formation lets them all start scouted on, so even with their 18" range it isn't totally unrealistic.
Daemon Flying Circus lists can just Psychic Shriek it down with minimal risk if they roll reasonably well.
Grey Knights can Gate in, hit it with a bunch of psychics/psycannon rends and kill it in pretty much the same way, albeit with more risk.
Harlequins can kill it with Neurodisruptors if they get close enough. Which is tricky, but possible. Plus there's a lot of Bladestorm shooting they can throw at it regardless.
That's just what I can think of off the of my head, considering armies I've played against, or considered playing, and just utilizing less than a full army. When you consider the idea that your opponent is gonna be starting with his entire army trying to kill your one Wraithknight, it gets a lot easier to do. Armies like Necrons can just throw metric tons of Gauss and Tesla at it, and it will die, ditto for Tau and the fact that everything they have, pretty much, can wound it on at least a 6+.
Some lists can do it pretty readily; for others, it's tough to do, but not impossible. And unfortunately there are a bunch out there that just can't pull it off with any sort of reliability. Ultimately it's the kind of tactic that'll depend heavily on what you're facing, and what Warlord Traits/other special rules are in play. If your opponent rolled Divide to Conquer, it offsets the Autarch bonus, for example, and you could wind up with your list trickling in in the face of overwhelming firepower.
Relapse wrote: And yet, Orks were able to tear down three in one game. I'm not being snarky or dismissing your experience here, but based from what I've seen in multiple games I am stating that these critters are not unbeatable.
Was that before or after WK gained the Stomp rule?
Relapse wrote: And yet, Orks were able to tear down three in one game. I'm not being snarky or dismissing your experience here, but based from what I've seen in multiple games I am stating that these critters are not unbeatable.
Was that before or after WK gained the Stomp rule?
Before, but even after if they can trade a unit of boyz, or whatever it was, for the Wraithknight isn't that an acceptable trade?
Relapse wrote: And yet, Orks were able to tear down three in one game. I'm not being snarky or dismissing your experience here, but based from what I've seen in multiple games I am stating that these critters are not unbeatable.
Was that before or after WK gained the Stomp rule?
Stomp is one of those rules that can be devastating, or just moderately inconvenient. I've seen a lot of Imperial Knights get brought down by Meganobz in round 2 because the Knight didn't roll that 6.
He is referring to the 6th ed Wraithknight, which even your calculator has a single squad of lootas doing 2.22 wounds too. Three squads should then take one down by that math. Sure this doesn't affect the new 7th ed Wraithknight the same, but its certainly not unkillable. I do recognize many of my opponents tactics aren't going to work the same, but hey Typhus got in once he can do so again... Just might lose his whole terminator retinue this time rather then just three.
I think one of the problems the Eldar apologists are missing is the fact that, while WKs are not unbeatable, they are horribly, horribly undercosted, as are Wraithguard. Compare the WK to every other super heavy or GMC in the game, nothing comes close when it comes to points value.
Name 295 points of ANY army not named Craftword Eldar that can stand a reasonable chance of taking down a WK. Grav Cents can only do it if the WK is foolish enough to stay in 24" range of the unit, otherwise, it should be able to pick them off over a couple of turns, or send a D-scythe unit to erase them. No vehicle squadron really has the firepower or durability to do it. There are no cheaply costed super heavies or GMCs that could do it.
Then there is 285 points worth of 5 Wraithguard in a WS for another horribly undercosted unit. In fact, they are probably even more dangerous because they have either 5 St D shots for bigger targets, or 5 St D-1 templates to erase those troublesome infantry squads. Just point your WS at the unit you want erased and job's done.
A WK and a couple of units of WG in WS are under 900 points and can ensure that by the end of Turn 2, all of the major threats are dealt with. Sure, you might be able to get some wounds on them, but its highly unlikely they will be significantly reduced in effectiveness and you haven't even started on the other 600-950 points worth of Eldar.
This codex has created an unpleasant situation for Eldar players. Units that most Eldar players already had were buffed significantly with no points increase (WG and bikes) or only a minor increase. Now, those Eldar players can either keep using the units they have had for a while now and be called WAAC or simply be refused games, or those players will have to buy units they didn't use so much of (Aspects) in order to get a game in. Guess that was GW's plan all along.
gungo wrote: I agree with you in the us scene ranged d will likely stay banned, although I think the ITC may allow the nerfed str d scythe for guardians. Platforms and hemlocks I think will also be banned. If they thought the Lynx was to powerful at 420 points? There is no way the rest of that stays legal. However I disagree with you stating elder will be weaker in the us tourney scene. Other then wave serpents everything else is just flat out better. The suncanon and assault d version wraithknight is still likely undercosted and extremely powerful and will likely stay legal. The assault d version is directly comparable to the knight lancer and horribly underpriced compared to it. Bikes while easier to kill then serpents are still extremely tough units and make up for that loss with speed and cheap mass firepower. I think even with tournanment bans on range str d elder should still stay on top.
Every local scene is different but at least by me Superheavy or garagatuan lord of wars are something most people discuss about playing wig beforehand And it's easy to politely ask someone not to play it.
Wow. You think tournaments will just make that much of a codex illegal? I don't.
The current rule ws put in place based on overwhelming feedback on how bad range str d was to the game. The only range str d at the time this rule was put in place was a 420pt flyer now your talking about 2 more models at almost half the price. The wraith knight with range str d is just one of three varients you can choose and it is no different then the massive list of already banned loWs. None
The nerfed d scythe I said they will still allow. So really the only real model they will ban that doesn't have a non-range d option is the double range d hemlock which is also absurdly undercosted for 185 points. This is not a huge list of banned models instead it's a list of banned weapon loadouts. And I seriously doubt they Will all of a sudden allow range d just to appease a handful of elder players who want to be "that guy". The codex even without range d weapon loadouts is still phenominal.
He is referring to the 6th ed Wraithknight, which even your calculator has a single squad of lootas doing 2.22 wounds too. Three squads should then take one down by that math. Sure this doesn't affect the new 7th ed Wraithknight the same, but its certainly not unkillable. I do recognize many of my opponents tactics aren't going to work the same, but hey Typhus got in once he can do so again... Just might lose his whole terminator retinue this time rather then just three.
Slight correction but he has two squads of lootas in the calculator for some reason (60 shots, full loota squads average 30 shots).
He is referring to the 6th ed Wraithknight, which even your calculator has a single squad of lootas doing 2.22 wounds too. Three squads should then take one down by that math. Sure this doesn't affect the new 7th ed Wraithknight the same, but its certainly not unkillable. I do recognize many of my opponents tactics aren't going to work the same, but hey Typhus got in once he can do so again... Just might lose his whole terminator retinue this time rather then just three.
That's not a single squad of lootas. That's thirty lootas, or two squads, which is 420 points.
I'm not defending the Wraithknight's new price, even I feel it should be 330-340 points, just for the sword and shield, and you should pay to get those D-Cannons, but sadly GW doesn't agree.
The point I was trying to get across was that the new Wraithknights are better, they are harder, but plenty of armies can still kill it. charge it with 10 lychguard and they should kill it, use centurions, grey knights, etc.
Honestly I expect to never field mine again given I can't use them at NOVA which I would like to attend next year. Might take the scythe guard, but honestly I'm more excited to just run the aspects I've always wanted to and now seem to have the rules which will allow me to do so.
gungo wrote: I agree with you in the us scene ranged d will likely stay banned, although I think the ITC may allow the nerfed str d scythe for guardians. Platforms and hemlocks I think will also be banned. If they thought the Lynx was to powerful at 420 points? There is no way the rest of that stays legal. However I disagree with you stating elder will be weaker in the us tourney scene. Other then wave serpents everything else is just flat out better. The suncanon and assault d version wraithknight is still likely undercosted and extremely powerful and will likely stay legal. The assault d version is directly comparable to the knight lancer and horribly underpriced compared to it. Bikes while easier to kill then serpents are still extremely tough units and make up for that loss with speed and cheap mass firepower. I think even with tournanment bans on range str d elder should still stay on top.
Every local scene is different but at least by me Superheavy or garagatuan lord of wars are something most people discuss about playing wig beforehand And it's easy to politely ask someone not to play it.
Wow. You think tournaments will just make that much of a codex illegal? I don't.
Yup it's better to adapt now and allow it, because the trend of strength D creeping into the books is likely to continue.
When you go too far and start banning multiple units or options from one fully legal main codex you've come to the point that you can't just stop there. Then you have to revise the whole game and every book. Maybe that's preferable, and I'd play tourneyhammer with community decided points costs and stuff, but unless it's a completely new and better version of the game I'll rather play with no restrictions at all. Moving the goal posts from one 'cheesy' army to another isn't productive in any way.
There is nothing for you to base this theory on. For all we know space marines could have zero str d and everyone gets a free vortex grenade. Str d was clearly labeled as the elder thing in the white dwarf. There is nothing to base the assumption that everyone will be getting loads of str d on. The LVO was largely hailed as a masive success because of the efforts they took to balance absurd rules sets. It was considered extremely fun and had the most variety in the championship we have seen in a long time. If they took the added steps to make a massive list of banned lows (in which the wraithknight is just another low and in fact only one varient has ranged str d), they amended 2+ rerollables, and invisibility. As of this exact moment All range d weapons are already banned. Most of the options that have a range d varient have other weapon loadouts they can use. So really your not banning any units just one specific set of weapon loadouts. I don't see a reason for ITC to go back and allow all range d just to appease a few elder players especially when no other codex is balanced for it. If anything I see dscythe with its nerfed str d and limited template range as one of the only range d varients to be allowed.
Hmmm just thought of this but. The Fire Prism rumor is that for each Fire Prism firing they get +1S, -1AP. So does that mean a unit of 3 Fire Prisms would have 3 large S7 AP1 blasts.
The game is troublesome for people who play to win
It's very hard to take you seriously when you make posts containing this.
Why don't you quote the whole sentence?
The game is troublesome for people who play to win, only want to play RAW, and aren't considerate of their opponents.
It's very hard to take serious people who quote out of context. I said, "and", which in the English language means that all 3 criteria must be met.
OK, so? Your point is still beyond diluted. Whats wrong with playing RAW? Since your so proud to throw strict English into your argument I find it hilarious your so fast to label others as TFG if they play by the very same standard. It's also beyond ignorant of you to act as though the three aren't mutually exclusive.
So again, even quoting the whole sentence, very hard to take anything you say seriously at all.
SilverDevilfish wrote: Hmmm just thought of this but. The Fire Prism rumor is that for each Fire Prism firing they get +1S, -1AP. So does that mean a unit of 3 Fire Prisms would have 3 large S7 AP1 blasts.
Was it mentioned how much Fire Prisms are?
Unless the points have radically changed, people will be running them around 140-150 points each.
No not really but think what you want. I will put my real world experience against a calculator any day of the week. If this game was based 100% on the odds in your mind then you might as well put up your toys.
In the past the fire prism added to each other but only caused one blast. If that is no longer the case they got pretty good too.
The game is troublesome for people who play to win
It's very hard to take you seriously when you make posts containing this.
Why don't you quote the whole sentence?
The game is troublesome for people who play to win, only want to play RAW, and aren't considerate of their opponents.
It's very hard to take serious people who quote out of context. I said, "and", which in the English language means that all 3 criteria must be met.
OK, so? Your point is still beyond diluted. Whats wrong with playing RAW? Since your so proud to throw strict English into your argument I find it hilarious your so fast to label others as TFG if they play by the very same standard. It's also beyond ignorant of you to act as though the three aren't mutually exclusive.
So again, even quoting the whole sentence, very hard to take anything you say seriously at all.
Nonsense, clearly expecting your $135 rule set to be good RAW is for WAACTFGs. I know I enjoy paying top dollar for the privilege of playing amateur rule designer.
Question, does anyone else have the feeling that Landraiders are going to become a super heavy vehicle? It kind of fits their fluff, and it would remove the need for the "Power of the Machine Spirit rule". I've heard many people say that it use to be able to target multiple units. It would also make it simultaneously more difficult to kill, and more dangerous. It would also probably remain in the 250 ish ppm range.
Also, I find it a bit odd that the super heavy flier section in the BRB specifically calls out the Thunderhawk. Maybe we will actually see it this time around. Just thinking about the "hidden in plain sight" type of thing GW occasionally does.
As to the S D Wraithcannon's: It really is not much different than S10 AP2 distort, or ID that they have had for years. It is just making an expensive choice that has had it's "scariness" eroded away by the Band-aid's of several editions back into a "scary" unit.
The Wraithknight has no excuse, barring the Landraider thought I had earlier up in this post coming to pass.
ClassicCarraway wrote: Name 295 points of ANY army not named Craftword Eldar that can stand a reasonable chance of taking down a WK. Grav Cents can only do it if the WK is foolish enough to stay in 24" range of the unit, otherwise, it should be able to pick them off over a couple of turns, or send a D-scythe unit to erase them. No vehicle squadron really has the firepower or durability to do it. There are no cheaply costed super heavies or GMCs that could do it.
Evidently, Deathwing Knights, if you picked up the White Dwarf. And those are hardly the awesomest ever units.
As cool as WK is, he can't kill more than 2 models a round.
ClassicCarraway wrote: Name 295 points of ANY army not named Craftword Eldar that can stand a reasonable chance of taking down a WK. Grav Cents can only do it if the WK is foolish enough to stay in 24" range of the unit, otherwise, it should be able to pick them off over a couple of turns, or send a D-scythe unit to erase them. No vehicle squadron really has the firepower or durability to do it. There are no cheaply costed super heavies or GMCs that could do it.
Evidently, Deathwing Knights, if you picked up the White Dwarf. And those are hardly the awesomest ever units.
As cool as WK is, he can't kill more than 2 models a round.
Wait, are you citing the White Dwarf as providing an example of a unit that can take on a Wraithknight? Even given how they constantly tamper with results to get their intended goal? (since their battle reports are really just sales pitches). I'm just trying to make sure I understand that.
ClassicCarraway wrote: Name 295 points of ANY army not named Craftword Eldar that can stand a reasonable chance of taking down a WK. Grav Cents can only do it if the WK is foolish enough to stay in 24" range of the unit, otherwise, it should be able to pick them off over a couple of turns, or send a D-scythe unit to erase them. No vehicle squadron really has the firepower or durability to do it. There are no cheaply costed super heavies or GMCs that could do it.
Evidently, Deathwing Knights, if you picked up the White Dwarf. And those are hardly the awesomest ever units.
As cool as WK is, he can't kill more than 2 models a round.
You forgot to include Scatter Lasers. So no more than 10 models per shooting phase, with an average between 2 and 6 models per shooting phase.
Those two models could also be vehicles or monstrous creatures. Losing two marines is a whatever, sure, losing two Leman Russes or your Dark Artisan formation in a single shooting phase is kind of a big deal though.
megatrons2nd wrote: Question, does anyone else have the feeling that Landraiders are going to become a super heavy vehicle?
I don't think so. It's much, much smaller than the Baneblade. Either way, it suffers from being a vehicle instead of a MC. If GW were to fox anything in 8e, that would be my #1 request.
Name 295 points of ANY army not named Craftword Eldar that can stand a reasonable chance of taking down a WK. Grav Cents can only do it if the WK is foolish enough to stay in 24" range of the unit, otherwise, it should be able to pick them off over a couple of turns, or send a D-scythe unit to erase them. No vehicle squadron really has the firepower or durability to do it. There are no cheaply costed super heavies or GMCs that could do it.
Part of the problem is that how hard it is to kill a WK is dependent on a number of factors, like "How is it armed?", "How is the rest of the army armed?", "What's the mission objective?", and "How many turns am I allowed to take?".
From Skitarii: 30 Skitarii Vanguard can do it reliably with just their Radium Carbines, cost 270 points, and if taken as part of a War Cohort can in tn theory do it on Turn 1. Deploy at 12" on, Scout 6" forward, Move 6"; it will be difficult to hide even from their 18" range given how big a WK is. Alternately, Onager Dunecrawlers with Neutron Lasers (345 for the full unit, admittedly) can engage in a shooting match with a Suncannon Knight all day long with little chance of taking damage, and probably kill it in 3-4 turns.
From Harlequins: A single Harlequin Troupe with Harlequin's Caresses, costs 250 points, and can reliably take out a WK in close combat before it gets a chance to swing, assuming they got the charge off. Taken as part of a Cregorach's Revenge formation or in a Masque, they can run and charge and likely will be able to pull that off, particularly against a Sword Knight. Alternately, for 270 they can all have Neural Disruptors and try to kill it with just pistol fire.
From Necrons: The easy answer is a unit of Lychguard with Hyperphase Swords and Dispersion shields. 300 points, and while they'll only wound the WK on a 6, they'll ignore its armor save, and if it's not a Swordknight, its only hope for victory is a lucky Stomp. For that matter, a unit of Wraiths with Whip Coils (258) can pretty steadily grind one down in assault. It's not pretty, and it'll end real quick if the Knight gets lucky and rolls 3 Stomps at 6 on the table, but short of that, the Wraiths' odds aren't that bad. Alternately, depending on your interpretation of Gargantuan vs Hunters from Hyperspace, a couple units of Deathmarks can theoretically pull it off with a healthy dose of luck in terms of scatter. And as long as we're embracing the possibility of a bit of randomness, any C'tan, particularly the Nightbringer, can take down a Wraithknight with a bit of luck, quite quickly in some cases.
If we're going into things like Forgeworld, the R'varna stands a pretty good chance of alpha-striking a Wraithknight (certainly a Wraithcannon Knight) in a single shooting phase, and costs 295 with FnP, plus will probably do vastly more damage at range to most targets than the WK could ever hope to. Those are, however, experimental rules last I checked, so it's hard to count them.
From Marines: The aforementioned CentStar can do it with ease, but does cost more than 295 if you take a big one, and while the WK can certainly try to avoid them, given that its own range is only 36", it won't be as simple as you think if you want to do more than just hide it. Sending in a unit of Dscythe Guard to kill the Centurions is something you're welcome to attempt (it will likely fail), but the more points you pile into that scenario the more ridiculous it seems. Alternately, two units of classic Devastors with Lascannons can kill a Sword Knight or Wraithcannon Knight in 2 or 3 turns.
From Grey Knights, of course, there's just Force Weapons, Force Weapons Everywhere... Daemonhammer Terminators (215 pts) will reliably kill a WK in assault, though they may have trouble getting there depending on its configuration/mission.
From Orks: Meganobz, in a variety of configurations (I find the idea of 6 Meganobz with Killsaws amusing, 300 points), can bring down a Wraithknight in close combat, though they will invariably lose 1-2 on the way in, and again, the Stomp table will decide how the rest of the combat goes if the Nobz don't get lucky in the first round.
That having been said, the Wraithknight is definitely undercosted, and the Wraithguard only slightly less so. But they're also not invincible.
I wasn't including any other weapon options because we actually don't have the sheet for WK yet. In any case the question was could anything beat a 295 point Wraithknight... and the answer I said, was, evidently, 1 squad of DWK.
Do I think WK is undercosted at 295? ABSOLUTELY.
Do I think the OLD Wk, was undercosted at 240? HELL YES.
Do I think the move to Gargantuan LoW from Heavy is a *downgrade*? YES.
The thing is, I never really hated 40k or Eldar because the old WK was too good, or the old wave serpents were too good. So, I think it's just a case of.. shrug... the Eldar stay where they are, more than anything.
ClassicCarraway wrote: Name 295 points of ANY army not named Craftword Eldar that can stand a reasonable chance of taking down a WK. Grav Cents can only do it if the WK is foolish enough to stay in 24" range of the unit, otherwise, it should be able to pick them off over a couple of turns, or send a D-scythe unit to erase them. No vehicle squadron really has the firepower or durability to do it. There are no cheaply costed super heavies or GMCs that could do it.
Evidently, Deathwing Knights, if you picked up the White Dwarf. And those are hardly the awesomest ever units.
As cool as WK is, he can't kill more than 2 models a round.
Unreliably. You're typically gonna be generating a fair number of S6 AP4 hits, but people seem to assume that you're gonna be rolling that 6 on the table (and apparently a 5-6 on the number of Stomps) all the damned time when they talk about how incredible Stomp is. Much like people seem to assume that Destroyer weapons are always gonna roll that same 6.
It's fantastic for some things, of course. That S6 AP4 is sufficient to reliably kill off Sicarians, which is about the only reason why a unit of Ruststalkers won't just gank a WK on turn 2 of the combat, since most of them won't live through the Stomps.
Against Terminators and other reasonably tough models, you'll mostly just be irritating them with Stomp.
Unreliably. You're typically gonna be generating a fair number of S6 AP4 hits, but people seem to assume that you're gonna be rolling that 6 on the table (and apparently a 5-6 on the number of Stomps) all the damned time when they talk about how incredible Stomp is. Much like people seem to assume that Destroyer weapons are always gonna roll that same 6.
It's fantastic for some things, of course. That S6 AP4 is sufficient to reliably kill off Sicarians, which is about the only reason why a unit of Ruststalkers won't just gank a WK on turn 2 of the combat, since most of them won't live through the Stomps.
Against Terminators and other reasonably tough models, you'll mostly just be irritating them with Stomp.
He simply said it can't be done. Clearly that isn't the case.
However, if Zhardsnark's unit targets an Eldar vehicle first using that move, I think he'd be in base-to-base in auto-assault... then, multicharge if other units in range.
, so can the orks! 
