Great so seer council manifests powers on a 3+ AND their is a wargear item reducing WC cost by 1.... So fortune on a 3+ with one die anyone... Or eldrich storm on 3 dice only needing 3's? And I thought scatriders invalidated greentide. Apocalyptic blast that has fleshbane and haywire should keep things real...
Looking at those leaks it doesn't look half bad. A Wraithknight is definitely LOW material, as is mr Avatar. Plus it's kinda fluffy in that they only really get the Avatars and Wraithknights out when gak gets hardcore. How many LOW's are you allowed in a game btw (discounting Unbound of course)
Wraithguard are now the best unit in the game. Same firepower as a Titan. Can kill a Warhound with one turn of shooting. Can deep strike no scatter with an allied Archaon.
Oh and apparently I can field my three firedragons units at BS5 in those 3 no scatter falcons.... and people were concerned bike lists needed D to open vehicles....
The hemlock is ML2 because just in case you didn't get anything good with one die fishing on telepathy or sanctic now you also generate 2 dice and bring on some more D...
nedTCM wrote: Wraithguard are now the best unit in the game. Same firepower as a Titan. Can kill a Warhound with one turn of shooting. Can deep strike no scatter with an allied Archaon.
angelofvengeance wrote: Looking at those leaks it doesn't look half bad. A Wraithknight is definitely LOW material, as is mr Avatar. Plus it's kinda fluffy in that they only really get the Avatars and Wraithknights out when gak gets hardcore. How many LOW's are you allowed in a game btw (discounting Unbound of course)
You can take as many LOW as you have CADs. Considering the 'tax' for a cad is only around 250 points, you can easily fit three into a ~1500 point game.
nedTCM wrote: Wraithguard are now the best unit in the game. Same firepower as a Titan. Can kill a Warhound with one turn of shooting. Can deep strike no scatter with an allied Archaon.
Fair and Balanced!
Umm Archaon?
LOL whats the difference, I'd be happy to let an eldar player take Archaon, he smokes scrotum compared to anything else they have.
Red Corsair wrote: Oh and apparently I can field my three firedragons units at BS5 in those 3 no scatter falcons.... and people were concerned bike lists needed D to open vehicles....
The hemlock is ML2 because just in case you didn't get anything good with one die fishing on telepathy or sanctic now you also generate 2 dice and bring on some more D...
Heh. If a Hemlock gets Vortex can it not hit itself?
angelofvengeance wrote: Looking at those leaks it doesn't look half bad. A Wraithknight is definitely LOW material, as is mr Avatar. Plus it's kinda fluffy in that they only really get the Avatars and Wraithknights out when gak gets hardcore. How many LOW's are you allowed in a game btw (discounting Unbound of course)
You can take as many LOW as you have CADs. Considering the 'tax' for a cad is only around 250 points, you can easily fit three into a ~1500 point game.
The seer council getting 3+ manifested powers and that item are insane as well.... I am wondering if Illic still has a D sniper rifle...
Red Corsair wrote: Oh and apparently I can field my three firedragons units at BS5 in those 3 no scatter falcons.... and people were concerned bike lists needed D to open vehicles....
The hemlock is ML2 because just in case you didn't get anything good with one die fishing on telepathy or sanctic now you also generate 2 dice and bring on some more D...
Heh. If a Hemlock gets Vortex can it not hit itself?
Ha ha I think your right. Safest way to cast vortex in the game, nice catch.
nedTCM wrote: Wraithguard are now the best unit in the game. Same firepower as a Titan. Can kill a Warhound with one turn of shooting. Can deep strike no scatter with an allied Archaon.
Fair and Balanced!
Technically, they do not have the same firepower as a Titan because (1) Titan has more range; (2) Titan usually affects a lot more models with multiple shots and large template/blast; and, (3) Titan is way more survivable.
Wraithguard are limited to short range and need a serpent or WWP to get in place and even then, with proper tactics and play, you should be able to manage. You know, like keep units a certain distance to a particularly juicy target so that Eldar can't deepstrike close enough (bubble wrap strategy) or keep a target in reserves until Wraithguard deploy.
Furthermore, they are apparently no longer scoring so they cannot contest other objectives held by obsec.
Finally, being able to kill a Warhound and deepstrike without scatter (with an Archon which isn't actually part of the unit mind you) is not the criterion for determining if a unit is best evar or not.
@Pretre, I think Wraithknights will generally be limited to 1 per army or if not I don't see more than 2 being included in what I would consider a good or balanced army that can win tournaments.
nedTCM wrote: Wraithguard are now the best unit in the game. Same firepower as a Titan. Can kill a Warhound with one turn of shooting. Can deep strike no scatter with an allied Archaon.
Fair and Balanced!
GW, dammit! That is just crossing the line! First they destroyed the WH fantasy world and sucked Archaon and Sigmar reborn into the warp and now they pooped out Archaon into the Eldar codex? Enough!
nedTCM wrote: Wraithguard are now the best unit in the game. Same firepower as a Titan. Can kill a Warhound with one turn of shooting. Can deep strike no scatter with an allied Archaon.
Fair and Balanced!
Technically, they do not have the same firepower as a Titan because (1) Titan has more range; (2) Titan usually affects a lot more models with multiple shots and large template/blast; and, (3) Titan is way more survivable.
Wraithguard are limited to short range and need a serpent or WWP to get in place and even then, with proper tactics and play, you should be able to manage. You know, like keep units a certain distance to a particularly juicy target so that Eldar can't deepstrike close enough (bubble wrap strategy) or keep a target in reserves until Wraithguard deploy.
Furthermore, they are apparently no longer scoring so they cannot contest other objectives held by obsec.
Finally, being able to kill a Warhound and deepstrike without scatter (with an Archon which isn't actually part of the unit mind you) is not the criterion for determining if a unit is best evar or not.
Keep white knighting this farce while not actually providing realistic solutions to the problem.
"Guys, gee golly gosh haven't you heard of the tactic bubble wrap? It's super hard for eldar to peel it back with their bland toothless options."
ImAGeek wrote: The fact I don't play any more doesn't make any thing I say automatically less valid. But thanks for just dismissing everything I say for no reason.
I think there's probably quite a few Eldar players out there. They're a great looking army, and they consistently have pretty good rules.
Well when I am asking about the meta that PEOPLE PLAY IN and you don't play the game, it does kind of invalidate what you say about the meta.
Don't worry ImAGeek, you'd still be wrong even if you played. Because you made a negative comment about 40k, so you are automatically wrong. And a whiner. Deal with it.
I said myself that the codex is OP and I'm not defending it, I am saying that a single codex being op doesn't ruin the game in all but the worst most competitive metas.
Also: you're both whiners, not because you said something bad about GW but because you are making the same petulant comments about things that can't be changed. We can't do anything about Eldar being OP at this point, so either deal with it and try to overcome it, or go play another game and stop bothering with 40k threads.
So, my house rule of bikes being 4+ armor unless the rider has better stays. The D weapons on normal models will all get -1 on the table, scythes -2.
I'm wondering if the wraithknight point cost was a fingerslip on the keyboard/ accidental number slip. 395 would be about perfect for them with that load out, or if their guns were only 24" range, maybe the current cost would be ok. (Still stretching it though)
nedTCM wrote: Wraithguard are now the best unit in the game. Same firepower as a Titan. Can kill a Warhound with one turn of shooting. Can deep strike no scatter with an allied Archaon.
Fair and Balanced!
Technically, they do not have the same firepower as a Titan because (1) Titan has more range; (2) Titan usually affects a lot more models with multiple shots and large template/blast; and, (3) Titan is way more survivable.
Wraithguard are limited to short range and need a serpent or WWP to get in place and even then, with proper tactics and play, you should be able to manage. You know, like keep units a certain distance to a particularly juicy target so that Eldar can't deepstrike close enough (bubble wrap strategy) or keep a target in reserves until Wraithguard deploy.
Furthermore, they are apparently no longer scoring so they cannot contest other objectives held by obsec.
Finally, being able to kill a Warhound and deepstrike without scatter (with an Archon which isn't actually part of the unit mind you) is not the criterion for determining if a unit is best evar or not.
Keep white knighting this farce while not actually providing realistic solutions to the problem.
"Guys, gee golly gosh haven't you heard of the tactic bubble wrap? It's super hard for eldar to peel it back with their bland toothless options."
So how many Eldar players do you regularly play against?
rollawaythestone wrote: I hope TO's are willing to actually implement some sort of comp system finally. It's such a taboo in 40k compared to Fantasy. Wake up sheeple!
I think this will be the straw re the camel's back that finally does it.
nedTCM wrote: Wraithguard are now the best unit in the game. Same firepower as a Titan. Can kill a Warhound with one turn of shooting. Can deep strike no scatter with an allied Archaon.
Fair and Balanced!
Technically, they do not have the same firepower as a Titan because (1) Titan has more range; (2) Titan usually affects a lot more models with multiple shots and large template/blast; and, (3) Titan is way more survivable.
Wraithguard are limited to short range and need a serpent or WWP to get in place and even then, with proper tactics and play, you should be able to manage. You know, like keep units a certain distance to a particularly juicy target so that Eldar can't deepstrike close enough (bubble wrap strategy) or keep a target in reserves until Wraithguard deploy.
Furthermore, they are apparently no longer scoring so they cannot contest other objectives held by obsec.
Finally, being able to kill a Warhound and deepstrike without scatter (with an Archon which isn't actually part of the unit mind you) is not the criterion for determining if a unit is best evar or not.
Keep white knighting this farce while not actually providing realistic solutions to the problem.
"Guys, gee golly gosh haven't you heard of the tactic bubble wrap? It's super hard for eldar to peel it back with their bland toothless options."
So how many Eldar players do you regularly play against?
There are 6, then more that turn up at larger events. Your point is?
Went through the posts on warseer and colated Iuchiban's stuff. (all credit to him obviously).
he has pics of him with the codex for his proof:
Spoiler:
here are all of the questions he answered.
Spoiler:
Originally Posted by Theocracity
Exactly how distortion weapons work would be great!
Ok. Let's go.
All Distortion weapons are Strenght D. All of them. But the scythes apply a -1 when rolling on the D table, and the strenght is considered to be 4 when calculating the instant death.
Originally Posted by ronin_cse
Wow! How did you get it so early?
Anyways how about Banshees, what benefit the guardian hosts get, and if there are similar things to chapter tactics for the craft worlds?
Step by step.
Banshees add +3" when running or assaulting. They igoner the I penalti when assualting through cover.
There are no "chapter tactics"
Originally Posted by Samaeus
Would love to know if the farseer powes have changed. Death Mission I'm looking at you...
Yes they have:
Primaris: Guide (no changes)
1: Executioner: Focussed witch fire. 24". Target receives 3 hits, always wounds on 2+. If target diez, another model receives 2 hits. If target dies another gone receives 1 hit.
2: Fatality: You re-roll to wound or to penetrate when firing at target unit. 24"
3: Will of Asuryan: 12" bubble of Fear and Adamantium will
4: Fortune: As always
5: Mind fight: Mainly the same.
6: Ancestral Storm: Warp charges 3 (5" blast), Warp charge 4 (Apoc blast), 24", Haywire, wounds 2+
Names may be different in the English version. (I own the Spanish one).
Originally Posted by Learn2Eel
Oh no...what have you done, GW? At least D-Scythes aren't as bad as being straight Destroyer weapons, that's something.
The Banshee buff is very nice!
@luchiban
Can you tell us the rough points cost of the Wraithknight? Are Wraithguard/Wraithblades still Troops when you take a Spiritseer, or just straight Elites? What changes are there to the Crimson Hunter? Cheers mate!
Wraithknight is LoW (295 points), Jump gargantuan creature
Wraithguard/blades are not tropos anymore if taking a Spiritseer (Only Elites)
Crimson hunter basically the same, but 140 points only.
Originally Posted by Aryllon
Is there any change to battle focus or bladestorm?
Is there any mention of how the Iyanden supplement interacts with the new codex?
No changes on Battle focus of the bladestorm rule. No hints on the Iyanden codex
Originally Posted by ronin_cse
Can you tell us what the points are for the weapon options on the Wraith Knight?
Sword + Shield: Free (Sword is Strenght D)
Solar cannon + Shield: Free
Originally Posted by ronin_cse
And the Wraith Cannons?
Is the equipment by default.
Originally Posted by ronin_cse
Oh last WK question: did the Sun(solar) cannon change at all? is it still str 6 ap 2 heavy 3 blast?
and then what changed with wave serpents?
Sun (Sorry for the "solar") remains the same.
Serpents are 110 points, and shield is now: S6, Assault 2D6, Ignores cover, One use only.
Originally Posted by silloh
Has the person that posted that actually confirmed with some sort of proof that he does in fact have the codex unless everyone is taking his word?
Taking his word, he did the same with the Daemonkin codex
Originally Posted by Learn2Eel
Thank you so much luchiban, it is greatly appreciated!
I am curious, what is the points cost of Wraithguard now either with Wraithcannons or D-Scythes?
Thank you!
Cost is the same.
Originally Posted by Minsc
Iuchiban: How does Autarchs look in the new book? More options/rules, or will they remain inferior to Farseers/Spiritseers?
Does Swooping Hawks still have their "no scatter"-rule, and if so, does Autarchs still make them loose if it they join them?
Basically the same.
Originally Posted by ronin_cse
Oh can Fire Prisms, Falcons, and Night Spinners be taken in squadrons now?
YEEEEESSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Up to three!!!!!!!! And they have special rules if done so:
Falcon: if Deep Strike, first Falcon does not scatter. Others are place at 4".
Fire Prism: For each additional Fire Prism firing +1S / -1AP
Night Spinners: +1S for each Night spinner
Originally Posted by Arthanor
Still range 60"? That was the weirdest part of it..
Nop, only 24"
[talking about wave serpent]
Originally Posted by silloh
I'd like to know the formation bonuses and if there are any overall point reductions .
The main bonus of the Warhost is that they always run 6
Originally Posted by John Wayne II
Does the serpent shield still work, you know, as a shield? Any change there?
Thanks!
When working as a shield, it works as before.
Originally Posted by John Wayne II
Great, thanks. Are Guardians still the same cost? And any change to Dire Avengers?
Guardians: Same
Dire avengers: They overwatch with BS2
Originally Posted by targetawg
Have their been any notable changes to the Avatar this time around?
Can any psykers in the book get daemonology - malefic?
Avatar is LoW, but mainly the same
I cannot see any psyker being able to get malefic daemonology
Originally Posted by Destruction2
Any chance you could list all the benefits from the different formations? That would be awesome.
Thanks.
That's a big one but lets go:
Guardian battlehost: Vypers, Warwalkers and Vaul's support batteries get preferred enemy if they have a unit of Guardias at 12". Guardians can purchase a Platform for free.
Windrider host: Once per game all formation gets Shred when firing shuriken weapons
Guardian Stormhost: Vypers, Warwalkers and Vaul's support batteries get preferred enemy if they have a unit of Guardias at 12". Storm guardians can purchase 2 special weapons for free.
Seer council: They harness Warp charges with 3+.
Aspect Host: They re-roll LD tests and get +1 to WS or BS.
Dire Avenger Shrine: Once per game, Shuriken weapons are Assault 3. +1 to BS
Crimson Death: Preferred enemy (Flying things), 4+ cover save, and if Jink, may re-roll the cover save.
Wraithhost: Get battle trance, if targe is at 18" or less from spiritser, reroll to hit
Originally Posted by Lezta
Are Dire Avengers still troops?
Yes, they are.
Ok guys, I have to go.
I'm sorry but it is imposible to answer everything
Before leaving I will post the list of special ítems:
- A pistol S4, AP3, Rending
- A sword +2S, AP- Rending and if fighting in a challenge, wounds on 2+ and Instant Death
- One sniper rifle, AP2, 120"
- One ítem that if bearer does not cast any phychic power, or shots during the shooting phase, he can run 48" and may reroll cover saves.
- One sword +1S, AP3, Soulblaze (affects wounded unit and all enemy units at 6")
- One ítem that when bearer diez, 5" template is placed and all models suffer one S4, AP5 hit. If at least, one wound is infflicted, bearer comes back to life, with 1W. One use only
- One ítem that makes psyhic powers required 1 WC less. No inv saves if done so.
Sorry if you've all seen this already. Sorry mods if this isn't allowed.
nedTCM wrote: Wraithguard are now the best unit in the game. Same firepower as a Titan. Can kill a Warhound with one turn of shooting. Can deep strike no scatter with an allied Archaon.
Fair and Balanced!
Technically, they do not have the same firepower as a Titan because (1) Titan has more range; (2) Titan usually affects a lot more models with multiple shots and large template/blast; and, (3) Titan is way more survivable.
Wraithguard are limited to short range and need a serpent or WWP to get in place and even then, with proper tactics and play, you should be able to manage. You know, like keep units a certain distance to a particularly juicy target so that Eldar can't deepstrike close enough (bubble wrap strategy) or keep a target in reserves until Wraithguard deploy.
Furthermore, they are apparently no longer scoring so they cannot contest other objectives held by obsec.
Finally, being able to kill a Warhound and deepstrike without scatter (with an Archon which isn't actually part of the unit mind you) is not the criterion for determining if a unit is best evar or not.
Keep white knighting this farce while not actually providing realistic solutions to the problem.
"Guys, gee golly gosh haven't you heard of the tactic bubble wrap? It's super hard for eldar to peel it back with their bland toothless options."
So how many Eldar players do you regularly play against?
There are 6, then more that turn up at larger events. Your point is?
Are they normally the type of player that takes these crazy lists? Is it a very competitive meta?
nedTCM wrote: Wraithguard are now the best unit in the game. Same firepower as a Titan. Can kill a Warhound with one turn of shooting. Can deep strike no scatter with an allied Archaon.
Fair and Balanced!
Technically, they do not have the same firepower as a Titan because (1) Titan has more range; (2) Titan usually affects a lot more models with multiple shots and large template/blast; and, (3) Titan is way more survivable.
Wraithguard are limited to short range and need a serpent or WWP to get in place and even then, with proper tactics and play, you should be able to manage. You know, like keep units a certain distance to a particularly juicy target so that Eldar can't deepstrike close enough (bubble wrap strategy) or keep a target in reserves until Wraithguard deploy.
Furthermore, they are apparently no longer scoring so they cannot contest other objectives held by obsec.
Finally, being able to kill a Warhound and deepstrike without scatter (with an Archon which isn't actually part of the unit mind you) is not the criterion for determining if a unit is best evar or not.
Keep white knighting this farce while not actually providing realistic solutions to the problem.
"Guys, gee golly gosh haven't you heard of the tactic bubble wrap? It's super hard for eldar to peel it back with their bland toothless options."
So things like Grav guns, Rending, Psychic Shriek, other heavy weapons/shooting are not going to be just as effective against a Wraithknight as they have always been? The answer is yes, they will.
Furthermore, bubble wrap is a viable tactic as you so lightly blow off... You will always have a turn to "wrap" a potential target before the Eldar can get into position as Wraithguard can only deepstrike on turn 2 and onwards.
Interceptor is also an answer to putting a dent in the hurt that Deepstriking Wraithguard can do.
Heck, even keeping potential targets in reserve is a viable tactic.
So ultimately, you add nothing to this discussion by saying I am just white knighting this "farce without providing realistic solutions" other than revealing either a lack of creativity with dealing with problems or a lack of tactical acumen/understanding of what the competitive meta looks like.
I personally always look for ways to deal with a situation with what is available rather than cry about how hopeless things appear to be.
nedTCM wrote: Wraithguard are now the best unit in the game. Same firepower as a Titan. Can kill a Warhound with one turn of shooting. Can deep strike no scatter with an allied Archaon.
Fair and Balanced!
Technically, they do not have the same firepower as a Titan because (1) Titan has more range; (2) Titan usually affects a lot more models with multiple shots and large template/blast; and, (3) Titan is way more survivable.
Wraithguard are limited to short range and need a serpent or WWP to get in place and even then, with proper tactics and play, you should be able to manage. You know, like keep units a certain distance to a particularly juicy target so that Eldar can't deepstrike close enough (bubble wrap strategy) or keep a target in reserves until Wraithguard deploy.
Furthermore, they are apparently no longer scoring so they cannot contest other objectives held by obsec.
Finally, being able to kill a Warhound and deepstrike without scatter (with an Archon which isn't actually part of the unit mind you) is not the criterion for determining if a unit is best evar or not.
Keep white knighting this farce while not actually providing realistic solutions to the problem.
"Guys, gee golly gosh haven't you heard of the tactic bubble wrap? It's super hard for eldar to peel it back with their bland toothless options."
So how many Eldar players do you regularly play against?
There are 6, then more that turn up at larger events. Your point is?
Are they normally the type of player that takes these crazy units? Is it a very competitive meta?
It's a mix, everyone wants to field their toys and nobody wants to play a guy that is pulling his punches. When a book like this drops it creates lose lose scenarios unless your playing hard core narrative. One guy gets to play with anything he wants, while his opponent always has to try to equal his opponent and when he loses you never played his full potential and when he wins he probably over stepped. It just makes a silly game state.
So more to your question, in a competitive tournament? Yea, generally when six guys are thumbing the button on the doomsday clock, none of them want to be the guy that hits it second. So we then have the crappy task of comping the feth out of the tournaments which usually inadvertently kneecaps the few outliers.
For pick up games it's not a major issue but only because almost no one will play them casually and defer to their other more "fun" armies. Which is a shame because I want to play eldar, but I also want to play a fair game where one guy doesn't pad his gloves.
ImAGeek wrote: The fact I don't play any more doesn't make any thing I say automatically less valid. But thanks for just dismissing everything I say for no reason.
I think there's probably quite a few Eldar players out there. They're a great looking army, and they consistently have pretty good rules.
Well when I am asking about the meta that PEOPLE PLAY IN and you don't play the game, it does kind of invalidate what you say about the meta.
Don't worry ImAGeek, you'd still be wrong even if you played. Because you made a negative comment about 40k, so you are automatically wrong. And a whiner. Deal with it.
Yeah. I should know that by now really.
I still follow the game, I just don't play myself.
nedTCM wrote: Wraithguard are now the best unit in the game. Same firepower as a Titan. Can kill a Warhound with one turn of shooting. Can deep strike no scatter with an allied Archaon.
Fair and Balanced!
Technically, they do not have the same firepower as a Titan because (1) Titan has more range; (2) Titan usually affects a lot more models with multiple shots and large template/blast; and, (3) Titan is way more survivable.
Wraithguard are limited to short range and need a serpent or WWP to get in place and even then, with proper tactics and play, you should be able to manage. You know, like keep units a certain distance to a particularly juicy target so that Eldar can't deepstrike close enough (bubble wrap strategy) or keep a target in reserves until Wraithguard deploy.
Furthermore, they are apparently no longer scoring so they cannot contest other objectives held by obsec.
Finally, being able to kill a Warhound and deepstrike without scatter (with an Archon which isn't actually part of the unit mind you) is not the criterion for determining if a unit is best evar or not.
Keep white knighting this farce while not actually providing realistic solutions to the problem.
"Guys, gee golly gosh haven't you heard of the tactic bubble wrap? It's super hard for eldar to peel it back with their bland toothless options."
So things like Grav guns, Rending, Psychic Shriek, other heavy weapons/shooting are not going to be just as effective against a Wraithknight as they have always been? The answer is yes, they will.
Furthermore, bubble wrap is a viable tactic as you so lightly blow off... You will always have a turn to "wrap" a potential target before the Eldar can get into position as Wraithguard can only deepstrike on turn 2 and onwards.
Interceptor is also an answer to putting a dent in the hurt that Deepstriking Wraithguard can do.
Heck, even keeping potential targets in reserve is a viable tactic.
So ultimately, you add nothing to this discussion by saying I am just white knighting this "farce without providing realistic solutions" other than revealing either a lack of creativity with dealing with problems or a lack of tactical acumen/understanding of what the competitive meta looks like.
I personally always look for ways to deal with a situation with what is available rather than cry about how hopeless things appear to be.
Grav guns? You are playing an army with more WC then SM could ever dare approach in a fluffy eldar list, which btw now can cast invisibility on that WK needing 1 fething WC and possibly on a 3+ in a council....
Interceptor? You mean Tau, again stop acting like these answers you are providing are generic. Why would you DS against tau in that scenario, you'd dust their static gun-line with superior JSJ on your bike troops.... YOU BEAT TAU ATJSJ!
BTW your bubble wrap comment is ridiculous and it makes me question your GT winning stature lol. So your suggesting we now have the added tax of fielding fence post dummies in order to prevent your optional deepstrike ON TOP of providing meaningful point efficient options to kill your basic troop bikes, which btw PLEASE actually give us an example of bubble wrap that won't break the bank, doesn't require unbound and can stand up to 100+ scatter laser shots? We are all dying to learn what you apparently know.
BWT I find it hilarious that you think your some tactical genius. Checking your thread is easy to see you leaned on Taudar in 6th ed. Maybe share your tactical acumen, because all I am seeing is a guy defending the tool he relies on to win.
Red Corsair wrote: Grav guns? You are playing an army with more WC then SM could ever dare approach in a fluffy eldar list, which btw now can cast invisibility on that WK needing 1 fething WC and possibly on a 3+ in a council....
Interceptor? You mean Tau, again stop acting like these answers you are providing are generic. Why would you DS against tau in that scenario, you'd dust their static gun-line with superior JSJ on your bike troops.... YOU BEAT TAU ATJSJ!
BTW your bubble wrap comment is ridiculous and it makes me question your GT winning stature lol. So your suggesting we now have the added tax of fielding fence post dummies in order to prevent your optional deepstrike ON TOP of providing meaningful point efficient options to kill your basic troop bikes, which btw PLEASE actually give us an example of bubble wrap that won't break the bank, doesn't require unbound and can stand up to 100+ scatter laser shots? We are all dying to learn what you apparently know.
Iccarus Array has Interceptor. Onager is a nice unit to field.
The 100+ scatter laser shots from bikes is going to be a myth. Fielding 25+ jetbikes is going to be a massive pain (space wise on the table), and plus, you lose the formation bonus of shred (which only works on shuriken weapons). If you want the (awesome) warhost bonuses, you're stuck with using 3 units of jetbikes, and putting 40 rolls for one fragile 270 point unit (that can only target one enemy unit at a time) is a waste of points.
yellowfever wrote: So am I going to be considered a power gamer when im running my Siam Hann army that I've had since the original craft world Eldar codex.
Depends whether or not you swap all your bike weapons out. Even then it sucks that you have to pull your punches.
Red Corsair wrote: Grav guns? You are playing an army with more WC then SM could ever dare approach in a fluffy eldar list, which btw now can cast invisibility on that WK needing 1 fething WC and possibly on a 3+ in a council....
Interceptor? You mean Tau, again stop acting like these answers you are providing are generic. Why would you DS against tau in that scenario, you'd dust their static gun-line with superior JSJ on your bike troops.... YOU BEAT TAU ATJSJ!
BTW your bubble wrap comment is ridiculous and it makes me question your GT winning stature lol. So your suggesting we now have the added tax of fielding fence post dummies in order to prevent your optional deepstrike ON TOP of providing meaningful point efficient options to kill your basic troop bikes, which btw PLEASE actually give us an example of bubble wrap that won't break the bank, doesn't require unbound and can stand up to 100+ scatter laser shots? We are all dying to learn what you apparently know.
Red Corsair wrote: Grav guns? You are playing an army with more WC then SM could ever dare approach in a fluffy eldar list, which btw now can cast invisibility on that WK needing 1 fething WC and possibly on a 3+ in a council....
Interceptor? You mean Tau, again stop acting like these answers you are providing are generic. Why would you DS against tau in that scenario, you'd dust their static gun-line with superior JSJ on your bike troops.... YOU BEAT TAU ATJSJ!
BTW your bubble wrap comment is ridiculous and it makes me question your GT winning stature lol. So your suggesting we now have the added tax of fielding fence post dummies in order to prevent your optional deepstrike ON TOP of providing meaningful point efficient options to kill your basic troop bikes, which btw PLEASE actually give us an example of bubble wrap that won't break the bank, doesn't require unbound and can stand up to 100+ scatter laser shots? We are all dying to learn what you apparently know.
Iccarus Array has Interceptor.
Yea, so? I didn't say tau were the only ones, they are the only meaningful one however. You really think the iccarus array will kill DS'ing ground firedragons?
And again, why would eldar DS against skittari or Tau when they out shoot them and out range them?
It's a mix, everyone wants to field their toys and nobody wants to play a guy that is pulling his punches. When a book like this drops it creates lose lose scenarios unless your playing hard core narrative. One guy gets to play with anything he wants, while his opponent always has to try to equal his opponent and when he loses you never played his full potential and when he wins he probably over stepped. It just makes a silly game state.
So more to your question, in a competitive tournament? Yea, generally when six guys are thumbing the button on the doomsday clock, none of them want to be the guy that hits it second. So we then have the crappy task of comping the feth out of the tournaments which usually inadvertently kneecaps the few outliers.
For pick up games it's not a major issue but only because almost no one will play them casually and defer to their other more "fun" armies. Which is a shame because I want to play eldar, but I also want to play a fair game where one guy doesn't pad his gloves.
I share your sentiments. It just sucks for the game. Even if it doesn't effect your meta and your own casual group of gamers, it's bad for the zeitgeist of the game as whole. It's causes psychic damage to the game which is already fragile enough and hemorrhaging older players.
Meh. Wraithknight costing 295 points, Wraithguard remaining the same price while having almost normal D-weapons. Swooping Hawks can move 18" and vector strike flyers with Haywire grenades. Add the good jetbikes.
nedTCM wrote: Wraithguard are now the best unit in the game. Same firepower as a Titan. Can kill a Warhound with one turn of shooting. Can deep strike no scatter with an allied Archaon.
Fair and Balanced!
Technically, they do not have the same firepower as a Titan because (1) Titan has more range; (2) Titan usually affects a lot more models with multiple shots and large template/blast; and, (3) Titan is way more survivable.
Wraithguard are limited to short range and need a serpent or WWP to get in place and even then, with proper tactics and play, you should be able to manage. You know, like keep units a certain distance to a particularly juicy target so that Eldar can't deepstrike close enough (bubble wrap strategy) or keep a target in reserves until Wraithguard deploy.
Furthermore, they are apparently no longer scoring so they cannot contest other objectives held by obsec.
Finally, being able to kill a Warhound and deepstrike without scatter (with an Archon which isn't actually part of the unit mind you) is not the criterion for determining if a unit is best evar or not.
Keep white knighting this farce while not actually providing realistic solutions to the problem.
"Guys, gee golly gosh haven't you heard of the tactic bubble wrap? It's super hard for eldar to peel it back with their bland toothless options."
So how many Eldar players do you regularly play against?
There are 6, then more that turn up at larger events. Your point is?
Are they normally the type of player that takes these crazy units? Is it a very competitive meta?
It's a mix, everyone wants to field their toys and nobody wants to play a guy that is pulling his punches. When a book like this drops it creates lose lose scenarios unless your playing hard core narrative. One guy gets to play with anything he wants, while his opponent always has to try to equal his opponent and when he loses you never played his full potential and when he wins he probably over stepped. It just makes a silly game state.
So more to your question, in a competitive tournament? Yea, generally when six guys are thumbing the button on the doomsday clock, none of them want to be the guy that hits it second. So we then have the crappy task of comping the feth out of the tournaments which usually inadvertently kneecaps the few outliers.
For pick up games it's not a major issue but only because almost no one will play them casually and defer to their other more "fun" armies. Which is a shame because I want to play eldar, but I also want to play a fair game where one guy doesn't pad his gloves.
I guess we have different outlooks on the game. Sure I like taking the units I want to take, but sometimes that just isn't possible due to them being either OP or UP. If I take too many of those units then the game simply isn't fun, since I am responsible for my own actions I then take other things. I don't consider taking the most broken units part of playing to my full potential btw. I try to take fairly balanced non cheesy lists so I can play to my full potential and feel like I earned it. If I have a list on the same power level as my opponent and I still beat him and he still blames it on me playing Eldar, it's not my fault he needs an excuse for losing, and honestly he probably would have blamed it on my list regardless of the army I played.
mercury14 wrote: Did anyone else not know what the comment on Scorpions was? "Steath until the fire fight?"
Edit: stealth and "shrouded until the fire of fight"?
I actually love all the aspects perks, had jetbikes been toned down somehow (1 in 3 heavies or FA shift/slight price hike on scats) and the D been isolated to the LOW only I'd say this was an excellent release.... unfortunately that's not the case.
Eldar remains at 6th, except for serpents which are 7th.
That's a good idea.
Or this:
Each army gets a points multiplier, agreed to by the community. If we take Eldar as "1", then Necrons might be 1.3, Daemons 1.5, and weaker armies can be 2 - 2.5. For any game, just multiply the points to arrive at the handicapped points allowed in the list.
Each army gets a points multiplier, agreed to by the community. If we take Eldar as "1", then Necrons might be 1.3, Daemons 1.5, and weaker armies can be 2 - 2.5. For any game, just multiply the points to arrive at the handicapped points allowed in the list.
That is just too clunky to work. You'd have to bring an extra 2000-3000 points to an event depending on your army.
so, aside from the wraith things and jet bikes. A ulthwé list might do some good and not be OP right? some guardians with war walkers and fire prisms, farseers and warlocks.
ashikenshin wrote: so, aside from the wraith things and jet bikes. A ulthwé list might do some good and not be OP right? some guardians with war walkers and fire prisms, farseers and warlocks.
Can't wait
Maybe the lesser of two evils, but honestly, the Ulthwe psychic stuff is pretty over the top as well. The Seer Council bonus gives a 3+ to manifest, with relics that allow for 1 less WC to manifest powers. Alongside a new Apocalyptic Blast psychic power...
nedTCM wrote: Wraithguard are now the best unit in the game. Same firepower as a Titan. Can kill a Warhound with one turn of shooting. Can deep strike no scatter with an allied Archaon.
Fair and Balanced!
Technically, they do not have the same firepower as a Titan because (1) Titan has more range; (2) Titan usually affects a lot more models with multiple shots and large template/blast; and, (3) Titan is way more survivable.
Wraithguard are limited to short range and need a serpent or WWP to get in place and even then, with proper tactics and play, you should be able to manage. You know, like keep units a certain distance to a particularly juicy target so that Eldar can't deepstrike close enough (bubble wrap strategy) or keep a target in reserves until Wraithguard deploy.
Furthermore, they are apparently no longer scoring so they cannot contest other objectives held by obsec.
Finally, being able to kill a Warhound and deepstrike without scatter (with an Archon which isn't actually part of the unit mind you) is not the criterion for determining if a unit is best evar or not.
Keep white knighting this farce while not actually providing realistic solutions to the problem.
"Guys, gee golly gosh haven't you heard of the tactic bubble wrap? It's super hard for eldar to peel it back with their bland toothless options."
So how many Eldar players do you regularly play against?
There are 6, then more that turn up at larger events. Your point is?
Are they normally the type of player that takes these crazy units? Is it a very competitive meta?
It's a mix, everyone wants to field their toys and nobody wants to play a guy that is pulling his punches. When a book like this drops it creates lose lose scenarios unless your playing hard core narrative. One guy gets to play with anything he wants, while his opponent always has to try to equal his opponent and when he loses you never played his full potential and when he wins he probably over stepped. It just makes a silly game state.
So more to your question, in a competitive tournament? Yea, generally when six guys are thumbing the button on the doomsday clock, none of them want to be the guy that hits it second. So we then have the crappy task of comping the feth out of the tournaments which usually inadvertently kneecaps the few outliers.
For pick up games it's not a major issue but only because almost no one will play them casually and defer to their other more "fun" armies. Which is a shame because I want to play eldar, but I also want to play a fair game where one guy doesn't pad his gloves.
I guess we have different outlooks on the game. Sure I like taking the units I want to take, but sometimes that just isn't possible due to them being either OP or UP. If I take too many of those units then the game simply isn't fun, since I am responsible for my own actions I then take other things. I don't consider taking the most broken units part of playing to my full potential btw. I try to take fairly balanced non cheesy lists so I can play to my full potential and feel like I earned it. If I have a list on the same power level as my opponent and I still beat him and he still blames it on me playing Eldar, it's not my fault he needs an excuse for losing, and honestly he probably would have blamed it on my list regardless of the army I played.
Actually I build lists just as you do. I think in a real game we'd have a blast That said I am not going to expect others to approach the game the same way and nor should I. Rules and balance are there for a reason, the burden shouldn't lie on the player to make a list that isn't too powerful. It's poor design.
Leth wrote: Ehh, Outside of bikes most of it looks alright.
Most tournaments have a hard LOW limit of one. Just because its in a decurion style does not mean it changes slots.
Hawks are kinda cool, looks like aspects might actually see some table time!! That is exciting, glad to see wave serpents toned down.
Alright, will have to wait and see overall but its not looking too bad. I bring AV 13 so bikes dont scare me much. Wraithknight is either shooting or CC D attacks not both. Auto 6 on run is pretty powerful, still losing OS is a rough hit.
Will have to see how lists shake out
Yes, but you seem to be forgetting the Wraithguard, Hemlock, and artillery have St D weapons as well. True, the d-scythes aren't AS nasty, but still, D3 wounds on a 3+ is a singificant boost over their original S4 Distort. A single 1850 CAD could have a WK, 3 5-man units of WG in wave serpents, a Hemlock, and at least one BATTERY of the D-cannon artillery. That is an insane amount of mostly durable ranged D in a standard game.
I was not forgetting about them at all. For a majority of targets outside of ignore saves on a 6 it is going to be business as before. The thing about D weapons is that they are all concentrated in a few units that are expensive at their cheapest. While it is very powerful against certain builds it is nearly worthless against others. You cant invest so much in one aspect, you need to diversify.
I am not saying that it is not powerful. It is quite powerful, but I just see myself taking two void shields and watching them either have to use their D(which is not that long of a range for most of it) to try and pop it or use their strength 6 trying to get through.
Leth wrote: Ehh, Outside of bikes most of it looks alright.
Most tournaments have a hard LOW limit of one. Just because its in a decurion style does not mean it changes slots.
Hawks are kinda cool, looks like aspects might actually see some table time!! That is exciting, glad to see wave serpents toned down.
Alright, will have to wait and see overall but its not looking too bad. I bring AV 13 so bikes dont scare me much. Wraithknight is either shooting or CC D attacks not both. Auto 6 on run is pretty powerful, still losing OS is a rough hit.
Will have to see how lists shake out
Yes, but you seem to be forgetting the Wraithguard, Hemlock, and artillery have St D weapons as well. True, the d-scythes aren't AS nasty, but still, D3 wounds on a 3+ is a singificant boost over their original S4 Distort. A single 1850 CAD could have a WK, 3 5-man units of WG in wave serpents, a Hemlock, and at least one BATTERY of the D-cannon artillery. That is an insane amount of mostly durable ranged D in a standard game.
I was not forgetting about them at all. For a majority of targets outside of ignore saves on a 6 it is going to be business as before. The thing about D weapons is that they are all concentrated in a few units that are expensive at their cheapest. While it is very powerful against certain builds it is nearly worthless against others. You cant invest so much in one aspect, you need to diversify.
I am not saying that it is not powerful. It is quite powerful, but I just see myself taking two void shields and watching them either have to use their D(which is not that long of a range for most of it) to try and pop it or use their strength 6 trying to get through.
Against infantry targets the D weapons won't be much of a change, but the ability to effectively delete any vehicle, no matter its AV, and likewise MC's, will be the big game changer.
A unit of 5 Wraithguard is killing a Baneblade on average with a single salvo.
Instead of complaints or saying "comp!", why not invest your money into another game. One by a game company that has a narrative with its customers, attempts balance, and supports all play styles. There's many on the market these days, choose one.
As for me? I'm gonna sell off some loose models and garbage, find a hot deal on some used Eldar and get back into 40k. I'll bring my other games too. Wanna play against my Scatbike, D-bone list? Or how about some Malifaux? Warmachine, eh, eh?
Each army gets a points multiplier, agreed to by the community. If we take Eldar as "1", then Necrons might be 1.3, Daemons 1.5, and weaker armies can be 2 - 2.5. For any game, just multiply the points to arrive at the handicapped points allowed in the list.
That is just too clunky to work. You'd have to bring an extra 2000-3000 points to an event depending on your army.
It wouldn't really be "extra", as the TO would publish a full list of the point values for any faction. It could get really complex, though, as people ally and add formations. Decurion might be 1.3, but CAD Necron might be 1.6, etc.
TheKbob wrote: Instead of complaints or saying "comp!", why not invest your money into another game. One by a game company that has a narrative with its customers, attempts balance, and supports all play styles. There's many on the market these days, choose one.
As for me? I'm gonna sell off some loose models and garbage, find a hot deal on some used Eldar and get back into 40k. I'll bring my other games too. Wanna play against my Scatbike, D-bone list? Or how about some Malifaux? Warmachine, eh, eh?
Other games companies could so harness this as advertising. Pose as a player and kick people's asses with Eldar, and afterwards show them your far better balanced game...
Each army gets a points multiplier, agreed to by the community. If we take Eldar as "1", then Necrons might be 1.3, Daemons 1.5, and weaker armies can be 2 - 2.5. For any game, just multiply the points to arrive at the handicapped points allowed in the list.
That is just too clunky to work. You'd have to bring an extra 2000-3000 points to an event depending on your army.
It wouldn't really be "extra", as the TO would publish a full list of the point values for any faction. It could get really complex, though, as people ally and add formations. Decurion might be 1.3, but CAD Necron might be 1.6, etc.
No, I get that. But if I'm a DA player say, I have to bring a 3750 point army to a 1500 point tournament.
We have a large group but there are 5 Regular Eldar players and 5 that have them to ally with other armies. I have every army except Skitarii and blood angels. Eldar and Harliquins were my first armies. Yes it is competitive but I don't think game breaking. We have a good range of armies though. Many space marines, some blood angels, grey knights, few Tau, many CSM and Chaos, many Orks and I know people that are building skitarii. Many have used Imperial knights and we have allowed LOW at our tournaments since escalation. It does change meta to have ranged D but it also makes people think twice about running annoying deathstars like Screamer Stars, Draigo Cents, or Seer Councils as one roll of a '6' and your powerful characters are gone. It makes MSU better, however you can tailor your tournaments to help eliminate advantages or make running LOW or lower model counts as a disadvantage. Maelstrom helps with this, but not maelstrom straight from GW. But it does help with the big things in tournaments. I have played at multiple events and run some of my own, that have their own modified decks or charts that can make maelstrom very fun and challenging.
Last year there was a player with 3 knights and Gray knights, they did well until round 2 when the player they were against could clean up on objectives and piecemeal take on or outmaneuver his heavy stuff. They are not the end all be all.
For those that don't play anymore. I don't think you really have a right to bitch as you really don''t have a feel for how the game works anymore, so how do you know if this will break the game. You have not been in the trenches playing the game ans seeing how the codices affect or interact with the others.
Once again all I say is relax. Will there be good things? Hell yes. But that happens with every codex. Cheers.
TheKbob wrote: Instead of complaints or saying "comp!", why not invest your money into another game. One by a game company that has a narrative with its customers, attempts balance, and supports all play styles. There's many on the market these days, choose one.
As for me? I'm gonna sell off some loose models and garbage, find a hot deal on some used Eldar and get back into 40k. I'll bring my other games too. Wanna play against my Scatbike, D-bone list? Or how about some Malifaux? Warmachine, eh, eh?
Because contrary to popular belief it's totally possible to play 40k and other games at the same time and not burst into flames.
TheKbob wrote: Instead of complaints or saying "comp!", why not invest your money into another game. One by a game company that has a narrative with its customers, attempts balance, and supports all play styles. There's many on the market these days, choose one.
As for me? I'm gonna sell off some loose models and garbage, find a hot deal on some used Eldar and get back into 40k. I'll bring my other games too. Wanna play against my Scatbike, D-bone list? Or how about some Malifaux? Warmachine, eh, eh?
Because contrary to popular belief it's totally possible to play 40k and other games at the same time and not burst into flames.
To be fair he didn't say you had to drop 40k altogether. He was just suggesting that there's other games out there who give a rats ass about balance
I guess we have different outlooks on the game. Sure I like taking the units I want to take, but sometimes that just isn't possible due to them being either OP or UP. If I take too many of those units then the game simply isn't fun, since I am responsible for my own actions I then take other things. I don't consider taking the most broken units part of playing to my full potential btw. I try to take fairly balanced non cheesy lists so I can play to my full potential and feel like I earned it. If I have a list on the same power level as my opponent and I still beat him and he still blames it on me playing Eldar, it's not my fault he needs an excuse for losing, and honestly he probably would have blamed it on my list regardless of the army I played.
Actually I build lists just as you do. I think in a real game we'd have a blast That said I am not going to expect others to approach the game the same way and nor should I. Rules and balance are there for a reason, the burden shouldn't lie on the player to make a list that isn't too powerful. It's poor design.
Actually I think that's where the different outlook lies. I personally don't think it's bad game design, just a type of game design. Again I grant that there are too many powerful units in this codex, but for the most part the game design of 40k is exactly what I want and why I continue playing it and enjoying it. Personally, as much as I love the lore and style and everything, if I was unhappy with the game design I would find something else.
TheKbob wrote: Instead of complaints or saying "comp!", why not invest your money into another game. One by a game company that has a narrative with its customers, attempts balance, and supports all play styles. There's many on the market these days, choose one.
As for me? I'm gonna sell off some loose models and garbage, find a hot deal on some used Eldar and get back into 40k. I'll bring my other games too. Wanna play against my Scatbike, D-bone list? Or how about some Malifaux? Warmachine, eh, eh?
Because contrary to popular belief it's totally possible to play 40k and other games at the same time and not burst into flames.
To be fair he didn't say you had to drop 40k altogether. He was just suggesting that there's other games out there who give a rats ass about balance
He's suggesting we do that instead of discuss a game we enjoy, as if the two are mutually exclusive.
Because contrary to popular belief it's totally possible to play 40k and other games at the same time and not burst into flames.
Yes, but if you're into wargames for the gaming, why continue to throw money at a company who obviously has no clue what they're doing?
If you're pushing pretty plastic,... Why not still use another ruleset with GW models?
If you're paying over $100 for rules, you shouldn't have to house rule it.
Because I enjoy 40k on the whole. This is the first time I've genuinely been flabbergasted by something GW has done. Why would I jump ship and ruin a game cause of something that can be easily house ruled? I like 40ks rules for what they are. The other ges aren't going anywhere. I have every right to criticize a game I am invested in without wanting to give it up completely.
Hollismason wrote: They have a unwarranted nostalgic love for 2nd Edition so I'm not surprised they would make this codex.
You know, I played the tail end of 2nd edition. It seemed fun to me (although I was totally new to it at the time). I necessarily wouldn't mind a return of 2nd edition style and size (and prices!) if they got rid of some of the most broken nonsense....
I guess we have different outlooks on the game. Sure I like taking the units I want to take, but sometimes that just isn't possible due to them being either OP or UP. If I take too many of those units then the game simply isn't fun, since I am responsible for my own actions I then take other things. I don't consider taking the most broken units part of playing to my full potential btw. I try to take fairly balanced non cheesy lists so I can play to my full potential and feel like I earned it. If I have a list on the same power level as my opponent and I still beat him and he still blames it on me playing Eldar, it's not my fault he needs an excuse for losing, and honestly he probably would have blamed it on my list regardless of the army I played.
Actually I build lists just as you do. I think in a real game we'd have a blast That said I am not going to expect others to approach the game the same way and nor should I. Rules and balance are there for a reason, the burden shouldn't lie on the player to make a list that isn't too powerful. It's poor design.
Actually I think that's where the different outlook lies. I personally don't think it's bad game design, just a type of game design. Again I grant that there are too many powerful units in this codex, but for the most part the game design of 40k is exactly what I want and why I continue playing it and enjoying it. Personally, as much as I love the lore and style and everything, if I was unhappy with the game design I would find something else.
You'd love my house rules for Yahtzee then, where in my house I get 10 re-rolls to your 1. It's not bad, it's just different.
I'm sure a few of you have seen me defending GW in several threads. I have genuinely believed that they were on the right track with 7th and that the similar power level of all codices so far was a sign that they had started caring about balance. Even the Necron codex I could see as a lapse rather than the start of a trend. The excellent Skitarii release reassured me that I was right. Now... there's really nothing I can say. This is beyond my wildest fears, an abomination of a codex that has me considering selling my beloved Eldar and taking a long break from 40k. The worst thing is that this would probably not affect me personally in a huge way, since my group is largely casual. It's mainly that the faith I had in the future of the game has been completely shattered, and that has ruined most of the excitement and enthusiasm I have felt since getting back into 40k. Jesus.
In your opinion. In my opinion it is perfectly fine. There is absolutely NOTHING that makes your opinion more valid in this case than mine.
No, your opinion is that you like it.
It is bad game design whether or not you like it. Let me put it this way, if 40k had a list of goals it was trying to achieve through its rules, would it achieve any of them? Its not balanced, it doesn't mesh with the fluff, its complicated, its expensive, and it creates divisions between player types.
Its not easy or simple or balanced enough (or conversely, entirely random enough) to be beer and pretzels, and its not tight or balanced enough to be enjoyed competitively. It has no system for campaigns, and the balance issues lead to a poor game for scenario/themed battles.
The Eldar dex is only the latest symptom of this. Creating a blatantly overpowered codex is not good game design, unless you'd like to argue otherwise, besides stating that you like it.
And for the record, I'm not stating in any way shape or form that you can't or shouldn't enjoy playing 40k, but I'm calling out that 40k is anything other than good game design. I'd accept that GW has done some solid stuff with the game in the past that the current edition are built on, but they're not making it any better with the likes of books like this.
Mymearan wrote: I'm sure a few of you have seen me defending GW in several threads. I have genuinely believed that they were on the right track with 7th and that the similar power level of all codices so far was a sign that they had started caring about balance. Even the Necron codex I could see as a lapse rather than the start of a trend. The excellent Skitarii release reassured me that I was right. Now... there's really nothing I can say. This is beyond my wildest fears, an abomination of a codex that has me considering selling my beloved Eldar and taking a long break from 40k. I... I just can't. Jesus.
I'd say make an all banshee list, but hen after 2 years of modeling pricy failcast GW will probably give them a new kit and D weapons too, wasting more of your resources
ImAGeek wrote: The fact I don't play any more doesn't make any thing I say automatically less valid. But thanks for just dismissing everything I say for no reason.
I think there's probably quite a few Eldar players out there. They're a great looking army, and they consistently have pretty good rules.
Well when I am asking about the meta that PEOPLE PLAY IN and you don't play the game, it does kind of invalidate what you say about the meta.
Don't worry ImAGeek, you'd still be wrong even if you played. Because you made a negative comment about 40k, so you are automatically wrong. And a whiner. Deal with it.
I said myself that the codex is OP and I'm not defending it, I am saying that a single codex being op doesn't ruin the game in all but the worst most competitive metas.
Also: you're both whiners, not because you said something bad about GW but because you are making the same petulant comments about things that can't be changed. We can't do anything about Eldar being OP at this point, so either deal with it and try to overcome it, or go play another game and stop bothering with 40k threads.
You're a whiner for constantly complaining about other people *not* positively accepting this new army, so I guess that makes all three of us.
Seriously, I don't understand why you feel the need to attack someone else for posting issues they have with the have. Because they're not cheery and don't say "don't worry guys! I'm sure we just power through it, we'll find a way to get around this!"? No. We pay TOO much money for these rules to have to be the ones fixing it. IF GW didn't charge out the rear for rules, continue to inflate the game to larger and larger sizes, and nickel and dime us every chance they got, the complaining wouldn't have merit. But they do- they charge a premium price for these rules and I think everyone should expect a premium product. Otherwise we're just giving charity to GW.
And I know they've been hurting these past few years financially, but they can fix these problems like any good business could. In the meantime, it is perfectly fine to just accept that these are some gross errors in this codex, not feel compelled to tell others their opinion is worthless because they haven't played lately (since the rules for the game have changed sooo much...not ).
But I suppose this thread would be half the size if it wasn't people criticizing each other over GW's decision to go all-in on cashhammer.
In your opinion. In my opinion it is perfectly fine. There is absolutely NOTHING that makes your opinion more valid in this case than mine.
No, your opinion is that you like it.
It is bad game design whether or not you like it. Let me put it this way, if 40k had a list of goals it was trying to achieve through its rules, would it achieve any of them? Its not balanced, it doesn't mesh with the fluff, its complicated, its expensive, and it creates divisions between player types.
Its not easy or simple or balanced enough (or conversely, entirely random enough) to be beer and pretzels, and its not tight or balanced enough to be enjoyed competitively. It has no system for campaigns, and the balance issues lead to a poor game for scenario/themed battles.
The Eldar dex is only the latest symptom of this. Creating a blatantly overpowered codex is not good game design, unless you'd like to argue otherwise, besides stating that you like it.
And for the record, I'm not stating in any way shape or form that you can't or shouldn't enjoy playing 40k, but I'm calling out that 40k is anything other than good game design. I'd accept that GW has done some solid stuff with the game in the past that the current edition are built on, but they're not making it any better with the likes of books like this.
Mymearan wrote: I'm sure a few of you have seen me defending GW in several threads. I have genuinely believed that they were on the right track with 7th and that the similar power level of all codices so far was a sign that they had started caring about balance. Even the Necron codex I could see as a lapse rather than the start of a trend. The excellent Skitarii release reassured me that I was right. Now... there's really nothing I can say. This is beyond my wildest fears, an abomination of a codex that has me considering selling my beloved Eldar and taking a long break from 40k. The worst thing is that this would probably not affect me personally in a huge way, since my group is largely casual. It's mainly that the faith I had in the future of the game has been completely shattered, and that has ruined most of the excitement and enthusiasm I have felt since getting back into 40k. Jesus.
I appreciate that you're open to saying this Mymearen. I think all of us in the, shall we call it, anti-GW (note: not anti-40k) group want to see the game do well, but the writing seems to be on the wall with everything GW does that it becomes more and more impossible to defend them.
ImAGeek wrote: The fact I don't play any more doesn't make any thing I say automatically less valid. But thanks for just dismissing everything I say for no reason.
I think there's probably quite a few Eldar players out there. They're a great looking army, and they consistently have pretty good rules.
Well when I am asking about the meta that PEOPLE PLAY IN and you don't play the game, it does kind of invalidate what you say about the meta.
Don't worry ImAGeek, you'd still be wrong even if you played. Because you made a negative comment about 40k, so you are automatically wrong. And a whiner. Deal with it.
I said myself that the codex is OP and I'm not defending it, I am saying that a single codex being op doesn't ruin the game in all but the worst most competitive metas.
Also: you're both whiners, not because you said something bad about GW but because you are making the same petulant comments about things that can't be changed. We can't do anything about Eldar being OP at this point, so either deal with it and try to overcome it, or go play another game and stop bothering with 40k threads.
You're a whiner for constantly complaining about other people *not* positively accepting this new army, so I guess that makes all three of us.
Seriously, I don't understand why you feel the need to attack someone else for posting issues they have with the have. Because they're not cheery and don't say "don't worry guys! I'm sure we just power through it, we'll find a way to get around this!"? No. We pay TOO much money for these rules to have to be the ones fixing it. IF GW didn't charge out the rear for rules, continue to inflate the game to larger and larger sizes, and nickel and dime us every chance they got, the complaining wouldn't have merit. But they do- they charge a premium price for these rules and I think everyone should expect a premium product. Otherwise we're just giving charity to GW.
And I know they've been hurting these past few years financially, but they can fix these problems like any good business could. In the meantime, it is perfectly fine to just accept that these are some gross errors in this codex, not feel compelled to tell others their opinion is worthless because they haven't played lately (since the rules for the game have changed sooo much...not ).
But I suppose this thread would be half the size if it wasn't people criticizing each other over GW's decision to go all-in on cashhammer.
Mymearan wrote: I'm sure a few of you have seen me defending GW in several threads. I have genuinely believed that they were on the right track with 7th and that the similar power level of all codices so far was a sign that they had started caring about balance. Even the Necron codex I could see as a lapse rather than the start of a trend. The excellent Skitarii release reassured me that I was right. Now... there's really nothing I can say. This is beyond my wildest fears, an abomination of a codex that has me considering selling my beloved Eldar and taking a long break from 40k. The worst thing is that this would probably not affect me personally in a huge way, since my group is largely casual. It's mainly that the faith I had in the future of the game has been completely shattered, and that has ruined most of the excitement and enthusiasm I have felt since getting back into 40k. Jesus.
And this is what people seem to not realize. Unbalanced things like this hurt casual groups more than competitive players. Poor rules hurt casual gamers more than competitive ones.
In your opinion. In my opinion it is perfectly fine. There is absolutely NOTHING that makes your opinion more valid in this case than mine.
No, your opinion is that you like it.
It is bad game design whether or not you like it. Let me put it this way, if 40k had a list of goals it was trying to achieve through its rules, would it achieve any of them? Its not balanced, it doesn't mesh with the fluff, its complicated, its expensive, and it creates divisions between player types.
Its not easy or simple or balanced enough (or conversely, entirely random enough) to be beer and pretzels, and its not tight or balanced enough to be enjoyed competitively. It has no system for campaigns, and the balance issues lead to a poor game for scenario/themed battles.
The Eldar dex is only the latest symptom of this. Creating a blatantly overpowered codex is not good game design, unless you'd like to argue otherwise, besides stating that you like it.
And for the record, I'm not stating in any way shape or form that you can't or shouldn't enjoy playing 40k, but I'm calling out that 40k is anything other than good game design. I'd accept that GW has done some solid stuff with the game in the past that the current edition are built on, but they're not making it any better with the likes of books like this.
Mymearan wrote: I'm sure a few of you have seen me defending GW in several threads. I have genuinely believed that they were on the right track with 7th and that the similar power level of all codices so far was a sign that they had started caring about balance. Even the Necron codex I could see as a lapse rather than the start of a trend. The excellent Skitarii release reassured me that I was right. Now... there's really nothing I can say. This is beyond my wildest fears, an abomination of a codex that has me considering selling my beloved Eldar and taking a long break from 40k. The worst thing is that this would probably not affect me personally in a huge way, since my group is largely casual. It's mainly that the faith I had in the future of the game has been completely shattered, and that has ruined most of the excitement and enthusiasm I have felt since getting back into 40k. Jesus.
Very well said.
GW has this weird track record of doing a string of acceptable to excellent releases on the rules and/or models front, then drop a few terrible bombs in between. Their consistency is their inconsistency.
Oh, and their ability to always have such great ideas, concepts, and theories, only to bungle it up on the execution.
Mymearan wrote: I'm sure a few of you have seen me defending GW in several threads. I have genuinely believed that they were on the right track with 7th and that the similar power level of all codices so far was a sign that they had started caring about balance. Even the Necron codex I could see as a lapse rather than the start of a trend. The excellent Skitarii release reassured me that I was right. Now... there's really nothing I can say. This is beyond my wildest fears, an abomination of a codex that has me considering selling my beloved Eldar and taking a long break from 40k. The worst thing is that this would probably not affect me personally in a huge way, since my group is largely casual. It's mainly that the faith I had in the future of the game has been completely shattered, and that has ruined most of the excitement and enthusiasm I have felt since getting back into 40k. Jesus.
I feel you. My sentiments are generally optimistic and positive about Games Workshop. Slowly they have been building back up my trust over the months with some really stellar products and a trend (not consider Necrons) of really balanced and fun Codex's. But this really is one of those moments where they lost my trust and shake my confidence in the game as a whole.
Mymearan wrote: I'm sure a few of you have seen me defending GW in several threads. I have genuinely believed that they were on the right track with 7th and that the similar power level of all codices so far was a sign that they had started caring about balance. Even the Necron codex I could see as a lapse rather than the start of a trend. The excellent Skitarii release reassured me that I was right. Now... there's really nothing I can say. This is beyond my wildest fears, an abomination of a codex that has me considering selling my beloved Eldar and taking a long break from 40k. The worst thing is that this would probably not affect me personally in a huge way, since my group is largely casual. It's mainly that the faith I had in the future of the game has been completely shattered, and that has ruined most of the excitement and enthusiasm I have felt since getting back into 40k. Jesus.
And this is what people seem to not realize. Unbalanced things like this hurt casual groups more than competitive players. Poor rules hurt casual gamers more than competitive ones.
Yep.
Tournament player: "God damn GW, you really fethed it up, but we'll ban this and restrict this and voila, problem solved! Now let's get back to ordering those jetbikes..."
Casual player: "Why are my guys so much better than his guys, for the same points? This isn't very fun... how am I supposed to know what to take to avoid situations like this? This seems arbitrary and unfair, and kills my enthusiasm"
Another +1 to Blacksails, by the way. I'd like for the top players to prove this codex not OP, but then they have to allow a bunch of cheap D ranged weapons into the game first.
Eldar have volume, range, and quality of firepower all covered. And too fast to catch. Also, good luck tar pitting a Wraithknight... Remember, it stomps now, too!
Mymearan wrote: I'm sure a few of you have seen me defending GW in several threads. I have genuinely believed that they were on the right track with 7th and that the similar power level of all codices so far was a sign that they had started caring about balance. Even the Necron codex I could see as a lapse rather than the start of a trend. The excellent Skitarii release reassured me that I was right. Now... there's really nothing I can say. This is beyond my wildest fears, an abomination of a codex that has me considering selling my beloved Eldar and taking a long break from 40k. The worst thing is that this would probably not affect me personally in a huge way, since my group is largely casual. It's mainly that the faith I had in the future of the game has been completely shattered, and that has ruined most of the excitement and enthusiasm I have felt since getting back into 40k. Jesus.
Very well said.
GW has this weird track record of doing a string of acceptable to excellent releases on the rules and/or models front, then drop a few terrible bombs in between. Their consistency is their inconsistency.
Oh, and their ability to always have such great ideas, concepts, and theories, only to bungle it up on the execution.
GW consistently bungles the execution. They always have a ton of actually really very good ideas, and then go out of their way to do it in the worst, most unbalanced way possible.
Vaktathi wrote: GW consistently bungles the execution. They always have a ton of actually really very good ideas, and then go out of their way to do it in the worst, most unbalanced way possible.
Vaktathi wrote: GW consistently bungles the execution. They always have a ton of actually really very good ideas, and then go out of their way to do it in the worst, most unbalanced way possible.
Which is the sad and frustrating part.
Yeah, it's really very odd. It's like they actually take time to sit around and plan out "ok, what's the least intuitive way to actually implement this, that will cause maximum confusion and have the worst effect on balance?". The basic army construction rules are probably the best example I can think of
Each army gets a points multiplier, agreed to by the community. If we take Eldar as "1", then Necrons might be 1.3, Daemons 1.5, and weaker armies can be 2 - 2.5. For any game, just multiply the points to arrive at the handicapped points allowed in the list.
That is just too clunky to work. You'd have to bring an extra 2000-3000 points to an event depending on your army.
It wouldn't really be "extra", as the TO would publish a full list of the point values for any faction. It could get really complex, though, as people ally and add formations. Decurion might be 1.3, but CAD Necron might be 1.6, etc.
No, I get that. But if I'm a DA player say, I have to bring a 3750 point army to a 1500 point tournament.
Yea, that could be a problem.
Still, it would be fun to field a 300-boy green tide and still have 2 or 3 full CADs left over.
Vaktathi wrote: Yeah, it's really very odd. It's like they actually take time to sit around and plan out "ok, what's the least intuitive way to actually implement this, that will cause maximum confusion and have the worst effect on balance?". The basic army construction rules are probably the best example I can think of
I still don't quite understand the army construction rules. :/
I'll do whatever I please. That's my point. Plastic space dudes isn't an all or nothing equation. Learn 2 live.
Ah, yes. The "I do what I want" strategy. You forgot the head bob and three finger snaps.
And your misdirection of an answer holds no relation to this problem. Good job!
What? I said I won't let one gak release ruin something I genuinely enjoy. I'll house rule, have convos before games, play with decent folks over people abusing a busted mechanic etc. I still have the right to criticize and discuss.
To answer your question directly, yes, if you were running a dumb Eldar list I would refuse to play you. Whatever. The person I play with the most is an Eldar player, we've already began the discussion on how to mitigate this clusterfeth. Were still gonna have fun with something we like.
Vaktathi wrote: Yeah, it's really very odd. It's like they actually take time to sit around and plan out "ok, what's the least intuitive way to actually implement this, that will cause maximum confusion and have the worst effect on balance?". The basic army construction rules are probably the best example I can think of
I still don't quite understand the army construction rules. :/
Yeah, I don't think most people do. It took me several months to get it.
I was hoping to have fun at a few ITC events this year. Now it looks like matchups will be: roll a d6. On a 1, you get matched to a tourney eldar list and auto-lose. On a 2-6, play a game.
I wonder how the Eldar players would respond if people just started conceding in tourneys. And then congratulating the top non-eldar player for 4th place and ignoring the eldar trio in top 3.
Really I just hate GW for bringing up a situation where I instantly think less of another player because of what codex they have.
PS: my idea of having separate eldar-only tourneys is still on the table!
Lol i stopped looking at the forums for a few months and a new book gets announced. I totally don't have at least 3 units of every Eldar Unit except for shining spears
Jetbikes with scatter lasers sounds OP. I'm not gunna complain but heavy weapons on troops in that quantity is rediculous. Although its nice to have troops with heavy weapons that dont die like guardsmen (Guardians).
The new wraithknight is probably undercosted. Ranged D weapons (which I am not gunna complain about either) LoW status (which kinds sucks for me as I have 4, but the new detachment can use as many as I want after the initial core tax), and a Gargantuan Creature. I am glad that the D weapons aren't pie plates. I hate drifitng away into nothing.
Also turning distortion weapons into D weapons makes sense lorewise but now wraithguard will just eat everything. I can't wait till my normal meta walks in with their 5 Imperial Knight army. Good times to come.
Already pre-ordered the Farseer edition. Can't wait to get it into my hands for the Apoc game in my area on May 31st
To answer your question directly, yes, if you were running a dumb Eldar list I would refuse to play you. Whatever. The person I play with the most is an Eldar player, we've already began the discussion on how to mitigate this clusterfeth. Were still gonna have fun with something we like.
We got a WAAC, Try Hard here, guys! He has to modify the rules to allow himself a chance to win. If you're truly not playing to win, you shouldn't care.
And legitimaly, its not fair to Eldar players who have armies that go from good to absolutely busted. And if you're gonna house rule, I hope you're not paying for making up your own rules.
You're right, what you do isn't part of anyone's business. But when you do odd things like support a company that obviously is super bad at their jobs, folks will raise an eyebrow. Oh, and some will flat out have their entire collections invalidated. I guess that's cool too.
Vaktathi wrote: GW consistently bungles the execution. They always have a ton of actually really very good ideas, and then go out of their way to do it in the worst, most unbalanced way possible.
Which is the sad and frustrating part.
Yeah, it's really very odd. It's like they actually take time to sit around and plan out "ok, what's the least intuitive way to actually implement this, that will cause maximum confusion and have the worst effect on balance?". The basic army construction rules are probably the best example I can think of
You couldn't f~*k-up THAT badly intentionally, surely?
I shudder at everyone who pre-orders and/or buys the limited edition books. I am actually disgusted that people do that.
But the viscous cycle must continue and the money sheep must be shaved so that gw can keep making these great balanced rule sets their so wildly known for.
Support your local non-gwflgs guys and order from their.
They can move as before 6+2D6" and if double "1" loose a model, but they can choose to jump (2D6") in the opponent's shooting phase after the Warp Spiders are chosen as a target. If Warp Spiders are out of range or out of LoS after this movement, firing unit cannot choose another target. If they jump in the opponent's shooting phase, they cannot jump on their next turn.
Dark Reapers:
25 points per model. They re-roll to hit against anything that flies, turboboosts or moved flat out. All models ignore Jink saves.
Vaktathi wrote: GW consistently bungles the execution. They always have a ton of actually really very good ideas, and then go out of their way to do it in the worst, most unbalanced way possible.
Which is the sad and frustrating part.
Yeah, it's really very odd. It's like they actually take time to sit around and plan out "ok, what's the least intuitive way to actually implement this, that will cause maximum confusion and have the worst effect on balance?". The basic army construction rules are probably the best example I can think of
You couldn't f~*k-up THAT badly intentionally, surely?
One would think...but they seem to do it routinely
ninjafiredragon wrote: I shudder at everyone who pre-orders and/or buys the limited edition books. I am actually disgusted that people do that.
But the viscous cycle must continue and the money sheep must be shaved so that gw can keep making these great balanced rule sets their so wildly known for.
Support your local non-gwflgs guys and order from their.
I advocate a boycott, but if you must buy it I'd strongly suggest groups purchasing single copies for the club/shop simply as reference. Even if this gets FAQ'd to hell and back there is no way that book is worth the paper it is printed on.
ninjafiredragon wrote: I shudder at everyone who pre-orders and/or buys the limited edition books. I am actually disgusted that people do that.
But the viscous cycle must continue and the money sheep must be shaved so that gw can keep making these great balanced rule sets their so wildly known for.
Support your local non-gwflgs guys and order from their.
I bought the Special Edition. I'm sorry I have pride in my army and would like the tokens and cards as well. I only play Eldar and have been playing Eldar since I started in 4th. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you should criticize people who spend their own money the way they want to spend it.
Red Corsair wrote: Pride has nothing to do with it. You can be proud of your collection and favored faction all while not supporting that disgrace of a book.
How am I supposed to play my army without buying the new book?
I only bought the standard codex but also love eldar, had them since 5th and only play this army because I don't have the time or money for other armies,
been waiting for jetbikes since forever, so happy now. But a bit confused with all the strength D.
They can move as before 6+2D6" and if double "1" loose a model, but they can choose to jump (2D6") in the opponent's shooting phase after the Warp Spiders are chosen as a target. If Warp Spiders are out of range or out of LoS after this movement, firing unit cannot choose another target. If they jump in the opponent's shooting phase, they cannot jump on their next turn.
Dark Reapers:
25 points per model. They re-roll to hit against anything that flies, turboboosts or moved flat out. All models ignore Jink saves.
The jetbikes look awesome, I just wish there was more than one head type. Seeing as how if you run a Saim Hann force it will consist of mostly these bikes, a bit of variety on the sprue would have been nice...or some character/customization
Vaktathi wrote: GW consistently bungles the execution. They always have a ton of actually really very good ideas, and then go out of their way to do it in the worst, most unbalanced way possible.
Which is the sad and frustrating part.
Yeah, it's really very odd. It's like they actually take time to sit around and plan out "ok, what's the least intuitive way to actually implement this, that will cause maximum confusion and have the worst effect on balance?". The basic army construction rules are probably the best example I can think of
You couldn't f~*k-up THAT badly intentionally, surely?
Jervis stated in the White Dwarf after the Knight came out that they basically come up with cool rules that they feel fit the fluff first, and everything else trickles down from that. When you consider that they probably play in very, very strange ways that virtually no one else does, it's easy to see how things like this slip through, because they likely never take or consider the options. I doubt any of them looked at how they priced scatter lasers and think it's OP because they'd never take more than 1. The idea that anyone would spam it is inconceivable to them.
That's the biggest issue. They don't playtest things, they just play with it. If Phil Kelly fields only one squad of Jetbikes with just a single Scatter Laser and a lot of Guardians, it will never cross his mind that people will spam Jetbikes if they're too good. If he uses a Wraithknight only once in a while, it'll never even come into play that someone can field three and crush everyone.
That's how GW operates. They stat things out for the way they play, not anyone else.
Red Corsair wrote: Pride has nothing to do with it. You can be proud of your collection and favored faction all while not supporting that disgrace of a book.
How am I supposed to play my army without buying the new book?
Step 1: explain some stuff about new eldar to your local meta
Step 2: ask them if they would just let you keep playing the 6e book.
To answer your question directly, yes, if you were running a dumb Eldar list I would refuse to play you. Whatever. The person I play with the most is an Eldar player, we've already began the discussion on how to mitigate this clusterfeth. Were still gonna have fun with something we like.
We got a WAAC, Try Hard here, guys! He has to modify the rules to allow himself a chance to win. If you're truly not playing to win, you shouldn't care.
And legitimaly, its not fair to Eldar players who have armies that go from good to absolutely busted. And if you're gonna house rule, I hope you're not paying for making up your own rules.
You're right, what you do isn't part of anyone's business. But when you do odd things like support a company that obviously is super bad at their jobs, folks will raise an eyebrow. Oh, and some will flat out have their entire collections invalidated. I guess that's cool too.
Get a grip, dude. I work for my money, I'll spend it as I please. Ditto for free time. And I damn well won't be dissuaded by some internet gremlin on a warhammer forum.
Red Corsair wrote: Pride has nothing to do with it. You can be proud of your collection and favored faction all while not supporting that disgrace of a book.
How am I supposed to play my army without buying the new book?
Step 1: explain some stuff about new eldar to your local meta
Step 2: ask them if they would just let you keep playing the 6e book.
they will thank you for it.
Sorry but there are people that run 5 Imperial Knight Armies... I have no sympathy for them.
the biggest effect on the meta will be that wraith knights can't be tar pitted and will completely wreck Imperial knights, but they will still be hard countered by cent-star so don't expect to see mass wraith knights wining tournaments.
bikes and access to mass farseers could make hyper mobile seer council bike lists successful at gt's.
the D on wraith guard not a big deal the range and speed will make them a suicide unit no easy access to hit and run stops invisible wraith stars being viable. their really just a hard counter to super super heavy vehicles and gmc.
I think It will be top tier but not the game wrecking army that some are making out.
I do think that casual players are going to struggle though just like they do against imperial knights.
Sir Arun wrote: Anybody else think 2 wound Exarchs is a pretty stupid thing?
They were originally 2 w characters. Honestly I think it makes sense, before no one used them because they were way to expensive for 1w t3 models. Now no one will use them because they would rather get more bikes
ninjafiredragon wrote: I shudder at everyone who pre-orders and/or buys the limited edition books. I am actually disgusted that people do that.
But the viscous cycle must continue and the money sheep must be shaved so that gw can keep making these great balanced rule sets their so wildly known for.
Support your local non-gwflgs guys and order from there.
I bought the Special Edition. I'm sorry I have pride in my army and would like the tokens and cards as well. I only play Eldar and have been playing Eldar since I started in 4th. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you should criticize people who spend their own money the way they want to spend it.
Well for one burning an extra 60(?) dollars for the Limited Edition is just outright preposterous. Spend the extra money that you would save from buying the actual dex instead of LE by purchasing from small companies that produce far better tokens, and photoshop some much better cards.
I mean really paying that much for one book is just out right lunacy. Good job supporting the great rule-writing of Gw thought
ninjafiredragon wrote: I shudder at everyone who pre-orders and/or buys the limited edition books. I am actually disgusted that people do that.
But the viscous cycle must continue and the money sheep must be shaved so that gw can keep making these great balanced rule sets their so wildly known for.
Support your local non-gwflgs guys and order from there.
I bought the Special Edition. I'm sorry I have pride in my army and would like the tokens and cards as well. I only play Eldar and have been playing Eldar since I started in 4th. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you should criticize people who spend their own money the way they want to spend it.
Well for one burning an extra 60(?) dollars for the Limited Edition is just outright preposterous. Spend the extra money that you would save from buying the actual dex instead of LE by purchasing from small companies that produce far better tokens, and photoshop some much better cards.
I mean really paying that much for one book is just out right lunacy. Good job supporting the great rule-writing of Gw thought
(fyi im salty af right now at gw so...)
What's your concern? The Limited Edition was sold out in absolutely no time, seems there are many lunatics in the wild world. He can pretty much buy what he wants to, even seel it on ebay for double the price right now. Additionally, that doesn't mean what he supports at all, or do you support exploiting endless resources on our planet when you drive per bus or car? I bought myself a two-tomed, monumental monography some years ago about the codicology and art of bookmaking in early medieval St. Gallen for almost 200€ - a wonderful work. Keep the lunacy to you but don't tell Xerics what he is supposed to do. Whining about broken ingame stuff good and fine, but anyone here can do in RL what he/she pleases without having to get hammered in an online forum about a game.
However, I'm curious about if you define "pride in your army" with getting the Shiny Edition, Xerics?
ninjafiredragon wrote: I shudder at everyone who pre-orders and/or buys the limited edition books. I am actually disgusted that people do that.
But the viscous cycle must continue and the money sheep must be shaved so that gw can keep making these great balanced rule sets their so wildly known for.
Support your local non-gwflgs guys and order from there.
I bought the Special Edition. I'm sorry I have pride in my army and would like the tokens and cards as well. I only play Eldar and have been playing Eldar since I started in 4th. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you should criticize people who spend their own money the way they want to spend it.
Well for one burning an extra 60(?) dollars for the Limited Edition is just outright preposterous. Spend the extra money that you would save from buying the actual dex instead of LE by purchasing from small companies that produce far better tokens, and photoshop some much better cards.
I mean really paying that much for one book is just out right lunacy. Good job supporting the great rule-writing of Gw thought
(fyi im salty af right now at gw so...)
What's your concern? The Limited Edition was sold out in absolutely no time, seems there are many lunatics in the wild world
To be fair, with print runs that are like 500 or 1000 in total, it's not hard to sell out no matter how ridiculous
Sir Arun wrote: Anybody else think 2 wound Exarchs is a pretty stupid thing?
It's a throw back to 2nd. They used to have 2W. GW is trying to make 7th into 2.5....
They seem to have forgotten that 2nd was a much more nuanced game with much more detailed rules and far lower model counts.
They also got 2nd to the point where the game was such a complicated and hideously unbalanced mess that they had to reboot the entire game.
Also 2nd had IMHO one of the best concepts which was the Mission Cards. And the strategy cards (except Virus Outbreak!).
But yeah, they seem to be trying to go back to 2nd edition but with none of the cool stuff that I remember from 2nd (although I was much younger so maybe it was just that). Ironically one of my first games of 2nd edition way back in uhh... 1996 I think was against someone playing Space Wolves and not only that but fielding an Armorcast Warhound Titan back when Armorcast made the weird resin superheavy stuff (and also the Falcon at the time). Dealing with Wolfguard Cyclone Missile Launchers + Assault Cannons and a Titan was not a fun way to introduce a newbie to the game.
I guess if I were to play 7th edition I'd have a similar experience
Okay so from what I'm seeing if you take out the very offensive wraiths does the codex still seem broken to people? I know that the bikes are strong, personally don't see them as world ending strong, but that is just me.
I'm not sure about the new codex. I really don't care if people here think it's OP or not, that's not my concern. My issue is that I bought back into 40K for 7th after selling off all my stuff many years ago. I bought the Iyanden force and that's what I typically play. Now it seems that I have to run regular troops so that I can fill my 3 slots of elites with my wraithguard and heavies with 2 lords and a knight. I have a few scouts, but I really wanted to steer away from non-wraith as much as possible. I do have a small harlequin contingent I'm working on, but even that requires so many units to be a legal CAD and now my Iyanden is not a strict CAD and I lose obsec on the guard. I really couldn't care less about the D weapons now, so there is a chance I may just still play 6th Eldar (I only have 1 WS and haven't used it yet). I will probably still buy the book, but if it requires me to invest in a lot more minis I don't want, I'll play 6th. Again, not worried about people's preconceived notions of cheese, just the money I invested in getting back into the game. My group are all big boys so won't cry if a few units are overpowered.
Welcome to the new and improved codex finedesign (TM) After many years of hard work now GW can fulfill everybody's desires; Buy more miniatures (TM)
I got 3 games with the current codex before the edition change, imagine how happy I'm with the whole thing.
Not happy at all with the D weapon rules but on the other hand somebody does read the rules from time to time and found that Banshees were worthless as writen (still a lousy selection but...)
Red Corsair wrote: Pride has nothing to do with it. You can be proud of your collection and favored faction all while not supporting that disgrace of a book.
How am I supposed to play my army without buying the new book?
Step 1: explain some stuff about new eldar to your local meta
Step 2: ask them if they would just let you keep playing the 6e book.
they will thank you for it.
Sorry but there are people that run 5 Imperial Knight Armies... I have no sympathy for them.
Sometimes you just want to have a game with what you have accumulated over time, it's a problem for some...
Sir Arun wrote: Anybody else think 2 wound Exarchs is a pretty stupid thing?
It's a throw back to 2nd. They used to have 2W. GW is trying to make 7th into 2.5....
They seem to have forgotten that 2nd was a much more nuanced game with much more detailed rules and far lower model counts.
They also got 2nd to the point where the game was such a complicated and hideously unbalanced mess that they had to reboot the entire game.
Also 2nd had IMHO one of the best concepts which was the Mission Cards. And the strategy cards (except Virus Outbreak!).
But yeah, they seem to be trying to go back to 2nd edition but with none of the cool stuff that I remember from 2nd (although I was much younger so maybe it was just that). Ironically one of my first games of 2nd edition way back in uhh... 1996 I think was against someone playing Space Wolves and not only that but fielding an Armorcast Warhound Titan back when Armorcast made the weird resin superheavy stuff (and also the Falcon at the time). Dealing with Wolfguard Cyclone Missile Launchers + Assault Cannons and a Titan was not a fun way to introduce a newbie to the game.
I guess if I were to play 7th edition I'd have a similar experience
2nd edition had so many broken rules but you really only remember how much fun it was. Try playing a guard army with 9 sentinels when they were standard with assault cannons and they were only affected by misfire if you rolled 3 misfires (akin to rolling three 1s). Then there was the harlequin army which required marines to roll a 7+ to hit with all of their funky modifiers and how fast they could move. Then there was the blood angel army where you had 2 tech marines, 8 tarantulas, and a death company squad with jump packs. Way too much dakka to handle. It was a time when tanks were just a coffin on wheels because nobody in their right mind would use a transport and risk the entire squad dying or getting pushed off the table. It was a time when someone had to ask permission to use special characters because the mere sight of Abbadon was enough to make a guard army break and run off the table. It was more of a skirmish game back then rather than a big battle because marines were 30 points base and you had to buy them in units of 10.
I think I still refer to them as the good old days too
ninjafiredragon wrote: I shudder at everyone who pre-orders and/or buys the limited edition books. I am actually disgusted that people do that.
But the viscous cycle must continue and the money sheep must be shaved so that gw can keep making these great balanced rule sets their so wildly known for.
Support your local non-gwflgs guys and order from there.
I bought the Special Edition. I'm sorry I have pride in my army and would like the tokens and cards as well. I only play Eldar and have been playing Eldar since I started in 4th. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you should criticize people who spend their own money the way they want to spend it.
Well for one burning an extra 60(?) dollars for the Limited Edition is just outright preposterous. Spend the extra money that you would save from buying the actual dex instead of LE by purchasing from small companies that produce far better tokens, and photoshop some much better cards.
I mean really paying that much for one book is just out right lunacy. Good job supporting the great rule-writing of Gw thought
(fyi im salty af right now at gw so...)
What's your concern? The Limited Edition was sold out in absolutely no time, seems there are many lunatics in the wild world. He can pretty much buy what he wants to, even seel it on ebay for double the price right now. Additionally, that doesn't mean what he supports at all, or do you support exploiting endless resources on our planet when you drive per bus or car? I bought myself a two-tomed, monumental monography some years ago about the codicology and art of bookmaking in early medieval St. Gallen for almost 200€ - a wonderful work. Keep the lunacy to you but don't tell Xerics what he is supposed to do. Whining about broken ingame stuff good and fine, but anyone here can do in RL what he/she pleases without having to get hammered in an online forum about a game.
However, I'm curious about if you define "pride in your army" with getting the Shiny Edition, Xerics?
The rpide in my army in getting the limited edition is for the Eldar themed tokens mainly. If I could get ahold of 5 bricks of Eldar themed Dice I would but companies won't put a symbol on the dice because of copyrights.
Red Corsair wrote: Pride has nothing to do with it. You can be proud of your collection and favored faction all while not supporting that disgrace of a book.
How am I supposed to play my army without buying the new book?
Step 1: explain some stuff about new eldar to your local meta
Step 2: ask them if they would just let you keep playing the 6e book.
they will thank you for it.
Sorry but there are people that run 5 Imperial Knight Armies... I have no sympathy for them.
Sometimes you just want to have a game with what you have accumulated over time, it's a problem for some...
Yeah its a problem for me too. I have a Forgeworld Phantom and 2 Armorcast Revenant titans. I can count on one hand how many times I have gotten to use them.
Red Corsair wrote: Pride has nothing to do with it. You can be proud of your collection and favored faction all while not supporting that disgrace of a book.
How am I supposed to play my army without buying the new book?
Step 1: explain some stuff about new eldar to your local meta
Step 2: ask them if they would just let you keep playing the 6e book.
they will thank you for it.
Sorry but there are people that run 5 Imperial Knight Armies... I have no sympathy for them.
Then your problem is neatly solved. If the IKs are the kind of people that only play armies they can beat, then feth them. If they would like a challenge, then an Eldar opponent might be exactly what they are looking for.
But five knights? Oy. I strongly suspect they are the former, and might not play you. You're better off without them.
If you are still looking for an opponent, find another Eldar player. Hell, form an Eldar league. You'll get great games and avoid all this mess.
The only mess here is that people are childish enough to discount entire legal armies because they don't like their rules and declare that they are never going to play them.
I honestly do not think that the majority of the people playing this game today could even mentally survive the rogue trader era where you could literally just make things up.
Sir Arun wrote: Anybody else think 2 wound Exarchs is a pretty stupid thing?
It's a throw back to 2nd. They used to have 2W. GW is trying to make 7th into 2.5....
They seem to have forgotten that 2nd was a much more nuanced game with much more detailed rules and far lower model counts.
They also got 2nd to the point where the game was such a complicated and hideously unbalanced mess that they had to reboot the entire game.
Also 2nd had IMHO one of the best concepts which was the Mission Cards. And the strategy cards (except Virus Outbreak!).
But yeah, they seem to be trying to go back to 2nd edition but with none of the cool stuff that I remember from 2nd (although I was much younger so maybe it was just that). Ironically one of my first games of 2nd edition way back in uhh... 1996 I think was against someone playing Space Wolves and not only that but fielding an Armorcast Warhound Titan back when Armorcast made the weird resin superheavy stuff (and also the Falcon at the time). Dealing with Wolfguard Cyclone Missile Launchers + Assault Cannons and a Titan was not a fun way to introduce a newbie to the game.
I guess if I were to play 7th edition I'd have a similar experience
2nd edition had so many broken rules but you really only remember how much fun it was. Try playing a guard army with 9 sentinels when they were standard with assault cannons and they were only affected by misfire if you rolled 3 misfires (akin to rolling three 1s). Then there was the harlequin army which required marines to roll a 7+ to hit with all of their funky modifiers and how fast they could move. Then there was the blood angel army where you had 2 tech marines, 8 tarantulas, and a death company squad with jump packs. Way too much dakka to handle. It was a time when tanks were just a coffin on wheels because nobody in their right mind would use a transport and risk the entire squad dying or getting pushed off the table. It was a time when someone had to ask permission to use special characters because the mere sight of Abbadon was enough to make a guard army break and run off the table. It was more of a skirmish game back then rather than a big battle because marines were 30 points base and you had to buy them in units of 10.
I think I still refer to them as the good old days too
[/ramble]
I never said the "Good old days". I enjoyed 2nd, for what it was. Yes it had multitudes of "special" rules. I was merely pointing out that GW seems to be going back to 2nd, at least in spirit.
pretre wrote: You can run the wraith detachment without other troops.
so I don't have to take the Guardian warhost to get access to the wraithhost?
If so that will solve my issues as then I can load up on my harlies with Troops. I do usually run 2 wraithlords though, but nice to know that the option exists.
GW is not going to change by a few people boycotting it. If you hate so much THEN QUIT PLAYING and stop bitching!
Sell your models please and go play another game.
I remember the good old days and I personally loved 2nd edition. Especially when they came out with the card set. I guess I have likes 6th and 7th edition because it brought more to the game and did remind me of 2nd. The game will always change, but life will go on. I still have all my old models and very few have become obsolete. Heck even those I could repurpose. My Exodite Knight Titans I maade into Wraithknights. Each edition something becomes worse and something better. GW is a company after all and does want to sell models. Will something that sucked in a previous edition be better in the next ruleset? Sure. Things cycle
I played Eldar right before they came out with a 6th edition codex and still won a tournament with them. My first round was Gray knights and second was necrons which rocked in the beginning of 6th and I tabled 1 player and solidly beat another. Just because a codex is better or newer does not necessarily mean it is an auto win.
I took sisters of battle to Good Bad and the Ugly this year, I faced Daemons of Tzeentch with SCreamer star and beat them with full points, second round I faced Tau and got full points. ARe sisters of Battle Broken? I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure that out.
Don't make people feel bad for buying the codex and supporting a hobby and game that they love. If you hate it so much please quit and stop bitching.
Swabby wrote: The only mess here is that people are childish enough to discount entire legal armies because they don't like their rules and declare that they are never going to play them.
I honestly do not think that the majority of the people playing this game today could even mentally survive the rogue trader era where you could literally just make things up.
Exactly. We still dig out Rogue Trader once in awhile, for gaks and giggles. People are hellbent on making 40k into a competitive game. GW has been moving away from this concept for years now. They no longer host or support tournaments. GW is all about "forging the narrative ". They expect, foolishly, that people will be reasonable when they play the game. They don't think about how people will min max everything and find loopholes to abuse.
Mymearan wrote: I'm sure a few of you have seen me defending GW in several threads. I have genuinely believed that they were on the right track with 7th and that the similar power level of all codices so far was a sign that they had started caring about balance. Even the Necron codex I could see as a lapse rather than the start of a trend. The excellent Skitarii release reassured me that I was right. Now... there's really nothing I can say. This is beyond my wildest fears, an abomination of a codex that has me considering selling my beloved Eldar and taking a long break from 40k. The worst thing is that this would probably not affect me personally in a huge way, since my group is largely casual. It's mainly that the faith I had in the future of the game has been completely shattered, and that has ruined most of the excitement and enthusiasm I have felt since getting back into 40k. Jesus.
I understand your sentiment. I played WorldEaters back in 3rd edition and watched my army get neutered through several codices. I still modeled and painted them. Ran a few berzerkers in other armies but if I tried to field them as worldeaters- there was always something missing. I had to wait almost 15 yrs for my army to get some lovin'. and I can say I'm really excitied for what I'm seeing.
My point is..Now Im so glad I never sold my army. I can break out the nostalgic figures and play with these awesome rules Khorne armies are getting. I would suggest the same to you. You can build so many piecemeal armies now in 7th, you could supplement your eldar with a few models from another army to fit your play style.
Opponents, if they've played long will feel your pain especially Ork and Chaos players like myself. In fact, most players, if they've been around long enough have had their army chanced, a lot of times for the worse. Thats why we play multiple armies. But remember sometimes when a new codex drops some people cry out about the sky falling because Geedub tightened up some loophole they were exploiting with their army sp of course it would be weakened.
Your army is an investment: of time and money. Your the best judge for what to do. I wouldn't make a hasty decision, I think for the most part geedub is heading in the right direction (for 40k anyway) and they are giving armiess so many optional ways to field their armies.
mr_draken wrote: Any chance you could list all the benefits from the different formations? That would be awesome.
Thanks.
That's a big one but lets go:
Guardian battlehost: Vypers, Warwalkers and Vaul's support batteries get preferred enemy if they have a unit of Guardias at 12". Guardians can purchase a Platform for free.
Windrider host: Once per game all formation gets Shred when firing shuriken weapons
Guardian Stormhost: Vypers, Warwalkers and Vaul's support batteries get preferred enemy if they have a unit of Guardias at 12". Storm guardians can purchase 2 special weapons for free.
Seer council: They harness Warp charges with 3+.
Aspect Host: They re-roll LD tests and get +1 to WS or BS.
Dire Avenger Shrine: Once per game, Shuriken weapons are Assault 3. +1 to BS
Crimson Death: Preferred enemy (Flying things), 4+ cover save, and if Jink, may re-roll the cover save.
Wraithhost: Get battle trance, if targe is at 18" or less from spiritser, reroll to hit
*Looking at his Khorne Deamonkin Formations..., try not to look at the Brazen onslaugth and Blood Storm formations, give too much of an hearth-ache*
Seems like its turning more into a cycle rather than a doomsday scenario. I'm gonna hold on to my eldar regardless. My old avatar of khaine is just too full of good memories for me to dump it.
No, GW is all about selling models to children and treating the rules like those games on the back of a cereal box. "Forge a narrative" is nothing more than an excuse for bad design, and all of the problems with competitive games are just as bad in casual/narrative games.
I'm seeing people who I'd never thought I'd ever see say a single bad thing about GW calling this release bad (or at least expressing some negativity towards the release).
That's... kind of mind blowing.
Eiluj The Farseer wrote: GW is not going to change by a few people boycotting it. If you hate so much THEN QUIT PLAYING and stop bitching!
Sell your models please and go play another game.
I remember the good old days and I personally loved 2nd edition. Especially when they came out with the card set. I guess I have likes 6th and 7th edition because it brought more to the game and did remind me of 2nd. The game will always change, but life will go on. I still have all my old models and very few have become obsolete. Heck even those I could repurpose. My Exodite Knight Titans I maade into Wraithknights. Each edition something becomes worse and something better. GW is a company after all and does want to sell models. Will something that sucked in a previous edition be better in the next ruleset? Sure. Things cycle
I played Eldar right before they came out with a 6th edition codex and still won a tournament with them. My first round was Gray knights and second was necrons which rocked in the beginning of 6th and I tabled 1 player and solidly beat another. Just because a codex is better or newer does not necessarily mean it is an auto win.
I took sisters of battle to Good Bad and the Ugly this year, I faced Daemons of Tzeentch with SCreamer star and beat them with full points, second round I faced Tau and got full points. ARe sisters of Battle Broken? I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure that out.
Don't make people feel bad for buying the codex and supporting a hobby and game that they love. If you hate it so much please quit and stop bitching.
I love when people complain about other people complaining about things they can't change when they themselves have no actual power to stop those people from complaining.
People are not happy, they're going to complain. You have no formal authority to stop them. If it makes you unhappy, take your own advice and leave the thread.
I keep coming back to see more rumors and I keep seeing people complaining. I literally have to dredge through the whining to find stuff from the book...
The only silver lining is that all the strength D Eldar bring will make superheavies/GMCs/MCs and all that jazz laughably uncompetitive. This may mark a return to games were infantry dominates the field.
Too bad the scatterbikes then come in and push your infantry's s*** in...
PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote: I keep coming back to see more rumors and I keep seeing people complaining. I literally have to dredge through the whining to find stuff from the book...
Yeah no kidding. Ugh.
I like it so far and I'm looking forward to seeing that Rangers, Phoenix Lords, Vypers, and other things look like.
No, GW is all about selling models to children and treating the rules like those games on the back of a cereal box. "Forge a narrative" is nothing more than an excuse for bad design, and all of the problems with competitive games are just as bad in casual/narrative games.
If you delete "to children" you'd be right I think the crazy model buyers are mostly those with disposable incomes rather than allowances or lawnmowing bucks.
None of my friends come onto dakka or warseer because they find the boards much more negative than our actual gaming experience.
No, GW is all about selling models to children and treating the rules like those games on the back of a cereal box. "Forge a narrative" is nothing more than an excuse for bad design, and all of the problems with competitive games are just as bad in casual/narrative games.
PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote: I keep coming back to see more rumors and I keep seeing people complaining. I literally have to dredge through the whining to find stuff from the book...
If you're just looking for information it does kind of suck to wade through a bunch of posts to look for new updates.
Some suggestions I can make if it really is too much would be to wait for one of the various 40k blogs to post a summary, or the OP to update, or check the source of the rumours themselves over at Warseer.
No, GW is all about selling models to children and treating the rules like those games on the back of a cereal box. "Forge a narrative" is nothing more than an excuse for bad design, and all of the problems with competitive games are just as bad in casual/narrative games.
If you delete "to children" you'd be right I think the crazy model buyers are mostly those with disposable incomes rather than allowances or lawnmowing bucks.
None of my friends come onto dakka or warseer because they find the boards much more negative than our actual gaming experience.
This is 100% true. When playing with friends its really easy to have fun games. It does make pick-up games more complicated though.
PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote: I keep coming back to see more rumors and I keep seeing people complaining. I literally have to dredge through the whining to find stuff from the book...
Yeah no kidding. Ugh.
I like it so far and I'm looking forward to seeing that Rangers, Phoenix Lords, Vypers, and other things look like.
Yeah I'm thinking I need to leave this thread behind...it has certainly reminded me why I don't typically frequent DakkaDakka all that often though.
For the record I was going to go for the LE Codex as well, but ended up not doing it because it looks like it doesn't come with Tactical cards, just the psychic power ones, and I didn't really want resin markers. Who ever buys it deserves to do what ever they want with their money, if it sickens you that someone thinks getting a cool LE is worth it, well......personally you sicken me a bit
Edit: that last part wasn't going towards anyone in the quote, just to the board in general
No, GW is all about selling models to children and treating the rules like those games on the back of a cereal box. "Forge a narrative" is nothing more than an excuse for bad design, and all of the problems with competitive games are just as bad in casual/narrative games.
If you delete "to children" you'd be right I think the crazy model buyers are mostly those with disposable incomes rather than allowances or lawnmowing bucks.
None of my friends come onto dakka or warseer because they find the boards much more negative than our actual gaming experience.
This is 100% true. When playing with friends its really easy to have fun games. It does make pick-up games more complicated though.
I still chuckle that people think Dakkadakka is a negative board. It's probably one of the best boards I've been on with a solid moderation team (not a kiss ass statement, either; they're good at their positions).
The problem is that most 40k players have rose tinted glasses and live in their bubble worlds (See: 9E Fantasy for more details!) of house rules and kid gloves. So when they come to a forum where the only rules that matter are those printed in books you purchase with hard earned cash and they are reviewed honestly and fairly by what's in them and see the truth of the matter...
Well then it's "whine" this and "WAAC" that.
Sure, from that perspective, I'd agree. But these forums are totally not toxic or negative in the least. Other games don't have a blame the player mentality. None of them, that I'm aware of. It's the unique thing fostered by GW being the biggest kid on the block for so long, but with minimal support to the community. Other games, when something is busted, they all turn towards the boards and duke it out. Usually there's some doom and gloom, but if it's truly broken, it's fixed.
This stuff? I don't know if it's 100% game breaking, but it's certainly extremely undercosted for the capabilities presented. And it's going to cause a lot of house rules to start flying, too.
Edit: Oh, and comments like "I've eaten better written bowls of Alphabits" are certainly hyperbole to GW's lackadaisical writing style, but it's funny.
No, GW is all about selling models to children and treating the rules like those games on the back of a cereal box. "Forge a narrative" is nothing more than an excuse for bad design, and all of the problems with competitive games are just as bad in casual/narrative games.
If you delete "to children" you'd be right I think the crazy model buyers are mostly those with disposable incomes rather than allowances or lawnmowing bucks.
None of my friends come onto dakka or warseer because they find the boards much more negative than our actual gaming experience.
This is 100% true. When playing with friends its really easy to have fun games. It does make pick-up games more complicated though.
I still chuckle that people think Dakkadakka is a negative board. It's probably one of the best boards I've been on with a solid moderation team (not a kiss ass statement, either; they're good at their positions).
The problem is that most 40k players have rose tinted glasses and live in their bubble worlds (See: 9E Fantasy for more details!) of house rules and kid gloves. So when they come to a forum where the only rules that matter are those printed in books you purchase with hard earned cash and they are reviewed honestly and fairly by what's in them and see the truth of the matter...
Well then it's "whine" this and "WAAC" that.
Sure, from that perspective, I'd agree. But these forums are totally not toxic or negative in the least.
Indeed, Dakka is probably the most active and best organized tabletop gaming board out there with some of the best and most even handed moderation I've seen. You get negativity in places like this because this is where people come to discuss and vent, while game night is where they go to have fun and hang out, but Dakka is hardly overwhelmingly negative.
Hollismason wrote: So yeah just gonna put these Dark Reapers in this here Open Top Venom.
Kill everything that flies.
Yeah, basically Eldar just need a strong source of the D (e.g. Wraithknights) and then a consistent way to kill Helldrakes (Reapers?) and Bob's Your Uncle.
Though won't a Venom become an easy bake oven for Crispy Eldar Bits in 7E?
Swabby wrote: The only mess here is that people are childish enough to discount entire legal armies because they don't like their rules and declare that they are never going to play them.
I honestly do not think that the majority of the people playing this game today could even mentally survive the rogue trader era where you could literally just make things up.
Yeah..., but that was the same for everyone, not only Eldars...
If in 5 months i get a World Eaters codex with my Zerkers that have S: D Chainaxes and 25pts Chosen Zerkers on Juggers, and a Khorne cannon that shoot Dual wielding D chainaxes Zerkers and they all get a rule where they Deny The Witch on ANY Psy power (even blessings) on a 2+, then i would have no qualms playing versius Eldars with a Wraith heavy lists.
They could have keep things simple, no, they feel the need to throw fething D weapons on half the codex units and gave unneccesary buffs to units that din't need it, while leaving others units in the dark.
Of course its harsh to say to someone who simply wants to play"feth off WAAAC douchebag!", but the problem is that evne in friendly, NOTHING guarantees that they will not subdue to the Dark side of the game...
Don't Forget a game needs two players to be enjoyable, else its just masturbation.
Well the Venom can jink all day long and it doesn't bother the Dark Reapers at all. Plus with just being able to murderize Flyrants etc.. it's pretty good unit already but now it's even better.
Swabby wrote: The only mess here is that people are childish enough to discount entire legal armies because they don't like their rules and declare that they are never going to play them.
I honestly do not think that the majority of the people playing this game today could even mentally survive the rogue trader era where you could literally just make things up.
It probably helped that the Rogue Trader book wasn't $85 and the little army pamphlets weren't $50. And that Rogue Trader wasn't the 7th attempt to make the game right.
Hollismason wrote: Well the Venom can jink all day long and it doesn't bother the Dark Reapers at all. Plus with just being able to murderize Flyrants etc.. it's pretty good unit already but now it's even better.
I think we're going to see Dark Reapers as mainstay in many armies.
Watch them get free Flakk missiles and be 25 points plus get all that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wait I just realized Aspect Host probably applies to Dark Reapers, enjoy BS5 Dark Reapers if that thing allows them to be taken. So BS5 reroll to hit.
ronin_cse wrote: Yeah I'm thinking I need to leave this thread behind...it has certainly reminded me why I don't typically frequent DakkaDakka all that often though.
You can't stand people disliking the things you like?
mercury14 wrote: I see people saying that Guardians didn't change... and also that guardians get a shuriken cannon platform for free now. Which is it, anyone know?
I'm excited for things like a full squad of Falcons precision Deep Striking 3 squads of Fire Dragons (or whatever) exactly where they need to be. Dragons disembark and do what they do best, (at BS5) Falcons pour respectable fire power into something else.
Goobi2 wrote: I'm excited for things like a full squad of Falcons precision Deep Striking 3 squads of Fire Dragons (or whatever) exactly where they need to be. Dragons disembark and do what they do best, (at BS5) Falcons pour respectable fire power into something else.
Speaking of Fire Dragons... how is it possible that there's no word on them?
nedTCM wrote: Wraithguard are now the best unit in the game. Same firepower as a Titan. Can kill a Warhound with one turn of shooting. Can deep strike no scatter with an allied Archaon.
Fair and Balanced!
What I would like to know is this: is equivalent points of Wraithguard deep striking with an allied Archaon more effective than three 6-man squads of Fire Dragons deep striking in three Falcons?
ronin_cse wrote: Yeah I'm thinking I need to leave this thread behind...it has certainly reminded me why I don't typically frequent DakkaDakka all that often though.
You can't stand people disliking the things you like?
When people go on small rants saying they're not only boycotting Eldar, but refusing to play against anyone bringing Eldar to the table, and judging every Eldar player as some donkey-cave who only cares about winning games at your expense, no matter the length of time they've been playing Eldar or 40k in general, and arguing that Eldar players all need to be "punished" in order to teach Games Workshop a lesson (which will totes work guys because GW cares about our opinions, honest!)...I think things have gone far beyond simple "dislike".
I do like how the new jetbike kit actually has enough guns to give them all the options, though. That has to be a GW first. It's just too bad it had to be this unit that no one's even going to "let" you play with anyway, so there's no reason to waste your money collecting them.
Hi, my name is Mr Custer and to my left is Mr Pickett. We are off to charge the Eldar with our 30 tactical marines, half dozen centurions, and over priced vehicles.
nedTCM wrote: Wraithguard are now the best unit in the game. Same firepower as a Titan. Can kill a Warhound with one turn of shooting. Can deep strike no scatter with an allied Archaon.
Fair and Balanced!
What I would like to know is this: is equivalent points of Wraithguard deep striking with an allied Archaon more effective than three 6-man squads of Fire Dragons deep striking in three Falcons?
This is pretty cool. Disembark FD in a line lined along the side and rear armor of an IK. Once the IK player declares shield facing (at the beginning of the shooting phase), you then can Battle Focus to the non shield side. If using the Formation, the FD are BS5.
nedTCM wrote: Wraithguard are now the best unit in the game. Same firepower as a Titan. Can kill a Warhound with one turn of shooting. Can deep strike no scatter with an allied Archaon.
Fair and Balanced!
What I would like to know is this: is equivalent points of Wraithguard deep striking with an allied Archaon more effective than three 6-man squads of Fire Dragons deep striking in three Falcons?
This is pretty cool. Disembark FD in a line lined along the side and rear armor of an IK. Once the IK player declares shield facing (at the beginning of the shooting phase), you then can Battle Focus to the non shield side. If using the Formation, the FD are BS5.
SilverDevilfish wrote: I'm seeing people who I'd never thought I'd ever see say a single bad thing about GW calling this release bad (or at least expressing some negativity towards the release).
That's... kind of mind blowing.
Eiluj The Farseer wrote: GW is not going to change by a few people boycotting it. If you hate so much THEN QUIT PLAYING and stop bitching!
Sell your models please and go play another game.
I remember the good old days and I personally loved 2nd edition. Especially when they came out with the card set. I guess I have likes 6th and 7th edition because it brought more to the game and did remind me of 2nd. The game will always change, but life will go on. I still have all my old models and very few have become obsolete. Heck even those I could repurpose. My Exodite Knight Titans I maade into Wraithknights. Each edition something becomes worse and something better. GW is a company after all and does want to sell models. Will something that sucked in a previous edition be better in the next ruleset? Sure. Things cycle
I played Eldar right before they came out with a 6th edition codex and still won a tournament with them. My first round was Gray knights and second was necrons which rocked in the beginning of 6th and I tabled 1 player and solidly beat another. Just because a codex is better or newer does not necessarily mean it is an auto win.
I took sisters of battle to Good Bad and the Ugly this year, I faced Daemons of Tzeentch with SCreamer star and beat them with full points, second round I faced Tau and got full points. ARe sisters of Battle Broken? I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure that out.
Don't make people feel bad for buying the codex and supporting a hobby and game that they love. If you hate it so much please quit and stop bitching.
I love when people complain about other people complaining about things they can't change when they themselves have no actual power to stop those people from complaining.
People are not happy, they're going to complain. You have no formal authority to stop them. If it makes you unhappy, take your own advice and leave the thread.
True people are going to complain
about something they have not seen yet. You are not going to change the game. Adapt or stop playing.
I think Dakka is a good spot and bad. This thread was originally for rumors. But go ahead and Nerd rage. It will not change anything. But you are right I can't stop you. But go and whine about it. But all you are doing is clogging the thread with idle crap that achieves nothing. Congratulations
And although some rumors may turn out to not be true it is what is it is supposed to be fun and suspense.
mercury14 wrote: I see people saying that Guardians didn't change... and also that guardians get a shuriken cannon platform for free now. Which is it, anyone know?
SilverDevilfish wrote: I'm seeing people who I'd never thought I'd ever see say a single bad thing about GW calling this release bad (or at least expressing some negativity towards the release).
That's... kind of mind blowing.
Eiluj The Farseer wrote: GW is not going to change by a few people boycotting it. If you hate so much THEN QUIT PLAYING and stop bitching!
Sell your models please and go play another game.
I remember the good old days and I personally loved 2nd edition. Especially when they came out with the card set. I guess I have likes 6th and 7th edition because it brought more to the game and did remind me of 2nd. The game will always change, but life will go on. I still have all my old models and very few have become obsolete. Heck even those I could repurpose. My Exodite Knight Titans I maade into Wraithknights. Each edition something becomes worse and something better. GW is a company after all and does want to sell models. Will something that sucked in a previous edition be better in the next ruleset? Sure. Things cycle
I played Eldar right before they came out with a 6th edition codex and still won a tournament with them. My first round was Gray knights and second was necrons which rocked in the beginning of 6th and I tabled 1 player and solidly beat another. Just because a codex is better or newer does not necessarily mean it is an auto win.
I took sisters of battle to Good Bad and the Ugly this year, I faced Daemons of Tzeentch with SCreamer star and beat them with full points, second round I faced Tau and got full points. ARe sisters of Battle Broken? I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure that out.
Don't make people feel bad for buying the codex and supporting a hobby and game that they love. If you hate it so much please quit and stop bitching.
I love when people complain about other people complaining about things they can't change when they themselves have no actual power to stop those people from complaining.
People are not happy, they're going to complain. You have no formal authority to stop them. If it makes you unhappy, take your own advice and leave the thread.
True people are going to complain
about something they have not seen yet. You are not going to change the game. Adapt or stop playing.
I think Dakka is a good spot and bad. This thread was originally for rumors. But go ahead and Nerd rage. It will not change anything. But you are right I can't stop you. But go and whine about it. But all you are doing is clogging the thread with idle crap that achieves nothing. Congratulations
And although some rumors may turn out to not be true it is what is it is supposed to be fun and suspense.
On no, people discussing their opinions about rumors (now largely confirmed changes) on a discussion board, whatever shall we do!
nedTCM wrote: Wraithguard are now the best unit in the game. Same firepower as a Titan. Can kill a Warhound with one turn of shooting. Can deep strike no scatter with an allied Archaon.
Fair and Balanced!
What I would like to know is this: is equivalent points of Wraithguard deep striking with an allied Archaon more effective than three 6-man squads of Fire Dragons deep striking in three Falcons?
This is pretty cool. Disembark FD in a line lined along the side and rear armor of an IK. Once the IK player declares shield facing (at the beginning of the shooting phase), you then can Battle Focus to the non shield side. If using the Formation, the FD are BS5.
Been doing that for a while.
With a WWP, sure. This combo may not be points efficient, but it's been years since I looked at my Falcons in any meaningful way.
rollawaythestone wrote: Currently, the ITC has banned ranged D-weapons. They have said, depending on how things shake out with this book, that they may have to reconsider their policy or put it up for a new vote. But I think they are waiting to see what happens first.
For the sake of the meta, it may just be best to ban the new Eldar codex...
Swabby wrote: The only mess here is that people are childish enough to discount entire legal armies because they don't like their rules and declare that they are never going to play them.
I honestly do not think that the majority of the people playing this game today could even mentally survive the rogue trader era where you could literally just make things up.
It's not being childish, it's being rational. The changes we know about to the Eldar codex make it such a boost over the average power level of the other codices in this edition that I cannot see myself enjoying a game against this book. I'm not going to waste my time playing a game that is not fun to play. Therefore I am not going to play against Eldar players using this book.
I am probably not the only person thinking this way, and that sucks for Eldar players who just want to enjoy their army in a game. Barring a few, I don't think Eldar players appreciate having a book this broken either. It gives them a bad reputation through no fault of their own.
It's a terrible move by GW after the awesome Harlequin and Skitarii releases. It may not shape up to be as bad as it looks, but I think that this book is going to destroy the meta until it is replaced. There doesn't seem to be any way the core rules can change to tone down Eldar without torching other, actually balanced, codices in the process.
Yeah I don't think competitive eldar players would complain too much about being "forced" to use the current "most-often-1st-place-out-of-all-armies" 6th edition book.
Non-competitive eldar players shouldn't have a problem with that, since it's strictly a tourney ruling.
I can see shops running tourneys telling folks that they can't play with their armies. Sounds like a great business plan.
On the flip side, I really like what I see with this book so far. It appears it has options throughout the army to have the tools to handle nearly anything in 7th edition. For myself, that is a sign the writers understand the game and maybe the writers of some of the other books may not have had as keen an insight to 7th edition.
How can say Orks or Dark Eldar possibly adapt to this codex?
Yes, it would suck for Eldar players to have their new book banned. GW put them in a terrible spot. But it may come down to banning one book and pissing off one group of players, or letting it break the 7th edition meta and pissing off the players of (what, 15?) other codex players.
Amusingly, just like the fluff, Eldar seem to be stirring up enough emotion to create a new Chaos god and rip a hole in the game, destroying themselves as a race.
Isnt it more reasonable to just place restrictions? "Only 1 LoW/superheavy/gargantuan, no ranged D, no codex FoC's, no formations, etc." There ya go, fixed a lot of problems without a flat out ban on a codex.
Doesn't address Jetbikes, but if its bad enough then a similar amendment can be made.
Sarigar wrote: I can see shops running tourneys telling folks that they can't play with their armies. Sounds like a great business plan.
On the flip side, I really like what I see with this book so far. It appears it has options throughout the army to have the tools to handle nearly anything in 7th edition. For myself, that is a sign the writers understand the game and maybe the writers of some of the other books may not have had as keen an insight to 7th edition.
Exactly. Any shop that bans this codex is going to lose out on sales. How is that good business sense? Instead of having a hissy fit, why not try to figure out ways to counter it. Other than Scatriders, there's nothing completely over the top. D weapons!! OH NOESS!!! Considering the limited amount that can be taken and other than the Heavy D Cannon, they are short ranged. Don't get to close and it won't be an issue. Usually Dakka members conduct themselves in a better manner than all the crying/quitting/bitching. If it's "too hard" for you, stop playing. Or at the very least, quit bitching about it. They fixed Serpents, what more do you want?
How can say Orks or Dark Eldar possibly adapt to this codex?
Yes, it would suck for Eldar players to have their new book banned. GW put them in a terrible spot. But it may come down to banning one book and pissing off one group of players, or letting it break the 7th edition meta and pissing off the players of (what, 15?) other codex players.
Amusingly, just like the fluff, Eldar seem to be stirring up enough emotion to create a new Chaos god and rip a hole in the game, destroying themselves as a race.
Sounds like you need to join Operation Pitchfork. We the players are fed up with the Eldar.
Ya know, cause Eldar players totally have to be punished for something that's not their fault... /sarcasm
They could still use their sixth edition book, which has been VERY battle-tested and found to be not lacking by any stretch, to put it mildly.
To put it more bluntly, they already have one of the strongest dexes, with only necrons putting up a fight for that title.
Can you explain why you would be against a TOURNEY ONLY restriction of using the 6e book until more books come out that can fight the 7e version on even footing? It doesn't affect you on your Saturday random pick up games or your narrative campaign. It only affects you if you go to tournaments to pit your army piloting skills against other players.
As a tournament organizer/designer, I would want the tourney to be as even of ground as possible, so that a combination of player skill and some luck will win the day, NOT who just brought the most broken codex.
Allowing the 7e eldar book in is akin to allowing a vintage M:TG deck into a standard tournament. One of them is clearly at an advantage regardless of the pilot.
How can say Orks or Dark Eldar possibly adapt to this codex?
Yes, it would suck for Eldar players to have their new book banned. GW put them in a terrible spot. But it may come down to banning one book and pissing off one group of players, or letting it break the 7th edition meta and pissing off the players of (what, 15?) other codex players.
Amusingly, just like the fluff, Eldar seem to be stirring up enough emotion to create a new Chaos god and rip a hole in the game, destroying themselves as a race.
Sounds like you need to join Operation Pitchfork. We the players are fed up with the Eldar.
Ya know, cause Eldar players totally have to be punished for something that's not their fault... /sarcasm
They could still use their sixth edition book, which has been VERY battle-tested and found to be not lacking by any stretch, to put it mildly.
To put it more bluntly, they already have one of the strongest dexes, with only necrons putting up a fight for that title.
Can you explain why you would be against a TOURNEY ONLY restriction of using the 6e book until more books come out that can fight the 7e version on even footing? It doesn't affect you on your Saturday random pick up games or your narrative campaign. It only affects you if you go to tournaments to pit your army piloting skills against other players.
As a tournament organizer/designer, I would want the tourney to be as even of ground as possible, so that a combination of player skill and some luck will win the day, NOT who just brought the most broken codex.
Allowing the 7e eldar book in is akin to allowing a vintage M:TG deck into a standard tournament. One of them is clearly at an advantage regardless of the pilot.
How about because if someone buys the book, they should be allowed to use it. I didn't see anyone complaining when Imperial Knights got released and no one could beat them, I didn't see anyone complaining when Space marines got a bunch of broken stuff... No, it's just when Xeno armies get good stuff that you all like to complain... Personally, I think Marines should go back to being 30pts a piece with their current statline, no changes. But that goes against GW's motto of selling you tons of new shiny models.
I'm pretty keen to run an unbound army of only HQ, with the Autarchs playing as exarchs of the different shrines, with an Avatar. Court of the Young king forever!
And I may even be able to paint that whole army, seeing as it is only going to be a few models. Who knows
Januine wrote: To take a wee break from the whine and cheese and back to rumours - any word on what the next batch of Eldar model releases will be?
As far as we know, this week is is. Just Jetbikes, a couple plastic HQs, and the destruction of 7th edition.
PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote: How about because if someone buys the book, they should be allowed to use it. I didn't see anyone complaining when Imperial Knights got released and no one could beat them, I didn't see anyone complaining when Space marines got a bunch of broken stuff... No, it's just when Xeno armies get good stuff that you all like to complain... Personally, I think Marines should go back to being 30pts a piece with their current statline, no changes. But that goes against GW's motto of selling you tons of new shiny models.
I remember tons of complaints about Knights, and even more once Adamantium Lance hit. And they are 370ish a pop with a CC only D weapon, not less than 300 like the Wraithkniht is with it's ranged D guns.
ASTKNF gets a lot of complaints. Locally, it is called "And they shall know no rules," which I agree with. Thunderwolves and Grav Centurions also catch a lot of flak.
I also remember all the complaints about Orks and Dark Eldar being UNDERpowered (I've ranted on length about how useless Wych Cults are now)
Trying to shift the blame to other broken units is not going to make the new Eldar book any less unbalanced.
Who cares if Eldar are unbalanced? So are Tau, Centurions, daemon summoning, Necrons, Knights and about half the rest of the game. Removing Eldar isn't suddenly going to give Orks and Dark Eldar players a chance at winning GT's, they'll just go from getting effortlessly curb stomped by Eldar to getting effortlessly curbstomped by something else.
40K is a broken game. Removing just one aspect of the broken system isn't going to do anything but piss people off.
Ya know, cause Eldar players totally have to be punished for something that's not their fault... /sarcasm
They could still use their sixth edition book, which has been VERY battle-tested and found to be not lacking by any stretch, to put it mildly.
To put it more bluntly, they already have one of the strongest dexes, with only necrons putting up a fight for that title.
Can you explain why you would be against a TOURNEY ONLY restriction of using the 6e book until more books come out that can fight the 7e version on even footing? It doesn't affect you on your Saturday random pick up games or your narrative campaign. It only affects you if you go to tournaments to pit your army piloting skills against other players.
As a tournament organizer/designer, I would want the tourney to be as even of ground as possible, so that a combination of player skill and some luck will win the day, NOT who just brought the most broken codex.
Allowing the 7e eldar book in is akin to allowing a vintage M:TG deck into a standard tournament. One of them is clearly at an advantage regardless of the pilot.
How about because if someone buys the book, they should be allowed to use it. I didn't see anyone complaining when Imperial Knights got released and no one could beat them, I didn't see anyone complaining when Space marines got a bunch of broken stuff... No, it's just when Xeno armies get good stuff that you all like to complain... Personally, I think Marines should go back to being 30pts a piece with their current statline, no changes. But that goes against GW's motto of selling you tons of new shiny models.
Please, Eldar have been OP since 2nd edition, short of 5th, and Xenos? Ha, revisionist history! Do you not forget 5th Edition Grey Knights, 5th edition BA and SW? 3.5 BA and 3.5 Chaos? 6th edition Heldrakes (While having an absolutely horrible codex otherwise mind you)
BlaxicanX wrote: Who cares if Eldar are unbalanced? So are Tau, Centurions, daemon summoning, Necrons, Knights and about half the rest of the game. Removing Eldar isn't suddenly going to give Orks and Dark Eldar players a chance at winning GT's, they'll just go from getting effortlessly curb stomped by Eldar to getting effortlessly curbstomped by something else.
40K is a broken game. Removing just one aspect of the broken system isn't going to do anything but piss people off.
Thank you!
Instead of ostracizing people and shooing them away from the game, just be patient, we're getting a codex release practically every month now... just wait. Something else will come along and it'll be even more busted. and Probably Imperial flavored to boot just to piss even more people off.
BlaxicanX wrote: Who cares if Eldar are unbalanced? So are Tau, Centurions, daemon summoning, Necrons, Knights and about half the rest of the game. Removing Eldar isn't suddenly going to give Orks and Dark Eldar players a chance at winning GT's, they'll just go from getting effortlessly curb stomped by Eldar to getting effortlessly curbstomped by something else.
40K is a broken game. Removing just one aspect of the broken system isn't going to do anything but piss people off.
1000 mile journey, single step etc etc.
Maybe if they stopped getting paydays for having a broken game, we'd have a better one.
And I've seen some ork lists do rather well in tourneys. And not all of them with green tide either!
BlaxicanX wrote: Who cares if Eldar are unbalanced? So are Tau, Centurions, daemon summoning, Necrons, Knights and about half the rest of the game. Removing Eldar isn't suddenly going to give Orks and Dark Eldar players a chance at winning GT's, they'll just go from getting effortlessly curb stomped by Eldar to getting effortlessly curbstomped by something else.
40K is a broken game. Removing just one aspect of the broken system isn't going to do anything but piss people off.
Makes me laugh that people's defence to a broken release is 'the games already broken' as if that isn't a massive issue in the game.
Except this isn't just oh one thing is OP. It's game bustingly bad. I honestly haven't seen one viable non unbound strategy for dealing with this. They all lose and they do it very quickly.
BlaxicanX wrote: Who cares if Eldar are unbalanced? So are Tau, Centurions, daemon summoning, Necrons, Knights and about half the rest of the game. Removing Eldar isn't suddenly going to give Orks and Dark Eldar players a chance at winning GT's, they'll just go from getting effortlessly curb stomped by Eldar to getting effortlessly curbstomped by something else.
40K is a broken game. Removing just one aspect of the broken system isn't going to do anything but piss people off.
Makes me laugh that people's defence to a broken release is 'the games already broken' as if that isn't a massive issue in the game.
How does banning Eldar fix all of the game's other issues?
Also, I feel it goes without saying really, but if anyone is seriously considering a boycott then you need to stop buying GW products period. Don't "boycott" by not buying a new Eldar army that you weren't going to buy in the first place. All you guys that gave them huge gobs of money for the silly-looking Ad Mech stuff or your new Space Marine army or whatever are just as guilty of enabling this bullgak as anyone else. Don't start blaming Eldar players for the state of the game and treating them like they ruined 40k when you've been telling GW for months now that what they've been doing with the game is acceptable.
BlaxicanX wrote: Who cares if Eldar are unbalanced? So are Tau, Centurions, daemon summoning, Necrons, Knights and about half the rest of the game. Removing Eldar isn't suddenly going to give Orks and Dark Eldar players a chance at winning GT's, they'll just go from getting effortlessly curb stomped by Eldar to getting effortlessly curbstomped by something else.
40K is a broken game. Removing just one aspect of the broken system isn't going to do anything but piss people off.
Makes me laugh that people's defence to a broken release is 'the games already broken' as if that isn't a massive issue in the game.
How does banning Eldar fix all of the game's other issues?
People who play with people they know will be fine as they can agree on making the game sensible, this has been the case for decades. Tournaments will adjust the rules accordingly to disallow anything ridiculous.
Only people who play pick up games will suffer really. Not the end of the world, but seems like quite a big mistake on GW's behalf. I'll still wait to see the full book and details.
TheNewBlood wrote: Let's all take a moment and remember that the source of this latest round of rumors is literally some guy on Warseer who says he has the codex. The only reason people are taking this seriously is because BoLS posted it as clickbait.
Rumors confirming everyone's worst fears? Check.
No pictures? Check.
I call BS.
He might have great rumor accuracy in the past, but I'll swallow an entire saltshaker before I believe what this guy is saying.
1. The guy has done this with numerous codexes before and always been truthful
2. He has numerous pics of him holding the book and the book in his hand, just because you haven't bothered to read the whole thread doesn't mean they aren't there
3. Please post video of yourself doing the salt challenge once you have the book in hand and confirm all this for yourself
Hollismason wrote: This codex is broken, please explain how this is even remotely a balanced codex.
Can't wait for the Apologists, this is garbage just garbage.
Consider it a challenge buddy!
I know you play CSM... bring helldrakes!
I know you play DE... use the null deployment options, and no-scatter DSwwp!!!
I play lotsa of Orks... we can saturate the table like nobody's business. You wanna bring max jetbikes on the table? Fine... come eat the GREEN TIDE!!!
Awesome, I'll kill 90 boys and 2-3 battle wagons per turn. Good luck.
Well, personally I think the balance problem of 40k is mainly NOT related to the rules. Most of the problems just come from some ...(fill in an unkind word for guys with minor intelligence) rolling a D6 to determine point costs of a unit. But this is something that can be fixed. The easiest way to do so is introducing a handicap related to the power level of the codices.
So just an example with some made up numbers:
Eldar 0.83
Orks 1.3
If the tournament says 1850 points, you just multiply that number with the handicap and get a new maximum point value for each army. So in this example orks are allowed to field 2405 points while Eldar just get 1536 points. As I said, the numbers are totally made up and not based on a realistic codex analysis.
This would not fix any of the internal balance issues of most codices, so you ll keep seeing the same boring lists, but it would stop tournaments beeing won by the same races every time. Problem is to determine the right handicap values, but therefore you can keep adjusting them until they seem almost right.
Really dont understand why tournamants dont already have a system like this and support GWs pay to win strategy...
After putting some thought into it, I don't see wraithguard as being particularly problematic with their base gun, D or no D. Why? Because at what point does it cease to matter how dead that one target you shot at is?
Eldar already have a unit that will wipe big monsters and big vehicles from thw board with equal ease. This unit is called Fire Dragons, and with the new formation rules, they will be rocking a BS of 5. If I shoot your tank with equal points of fire dragons or wraithguard, is it less dead from the one than the other? If your model is immune to melta, sure, but in most cases, the difference seems largely semantic.
That is the Aussie group that started the 40k comp system for anyone that is interested, they are pretty strict with comp points already, i am.... very interested? to see how harsh they are with the Eldar codex.
BlaxicanX wrote: Who cares if Eldar are unbalanced? So are Tau, Centurions, daemon summoning, Necrons, Knights and about half the rest of the game. Removing Eldar isn't suddenly going to give Orks and Dark Eldar players a chance at winning GT's, they'll just go from getting effortlessly curb stomped by Eldar to getting effortlessly curbstomped by something else.
40K is a broken game. Removing just one aspect of the broken system isn't going to do anything but piss people off.
Makes me laugh that people's defence to a broken release is 'the games already broken' as if that isn't a massive issue in the game.
It makes me laugh that people can't read.
I'm not "defending a broken release", I'm pointing out why carte blanche banning one single faction from the game is idiotic and counter-productive. If you're going to try to fix the game then fix the fething game.
BlaxicanX wrote: Who cares if Eldar are unbalanced? So are Tau, Centurions, daemon summoning, Necrons, Knights and about half the rest of the game. Removing Eldar isn't suddenly going to give Orks and Dark Eldar players a chance at winning GT's, they'll just go from getting effortlessly curb stomped by Eldar to getting effortlessly curbstomped by something else.
40K is a broken game. Removing just one aspect of the broken system isn't going to do anything but piss people off.
Makes me laugh that people's defence to a broken release is 'the games already broken' as if that isn't a massive issue in the game.
It makes me laugh that people can't read.
I'm not "defending a broken release", I'm pointing out why carte blanche banning one single faction from the game is idiotic and counter-productive. If you're going to try to fix the game then fix the fething game.
It wasn't aimed just at you. It gets said a lot. I actually agree that banning the dex wholesale isn't a good idea. But we shouldn't have to fix the game in the first place. If I'm spending £35 for a codex it should come fully fixed.
Sir Arun wrote: Anybody else think 2 wound Exarchs is a pretty stupid thing?
I distinctly remember having a conversation with a friend of mine many years ago when we were doing our own version of 40K. He was writing our Eldar Codex and we got into a discussion over whether Exarchs should have 2 wounds. I convinced him they shouldn't based on the fact that:
1. Marine Sergeants, super-humans genetically altered to do nothing but fight wars, and the leader variety, didn't have 2 wounds, and cost about the same in points. 2. Ork Nobz, who did have two wounds, were just more massive, justifying their W2.
And now here we are - Exarchs have two wounds. He would laugh and laugh if he saw this.
Sir Arun wrote: Anybody else think 2 wound Exarchs is a pretty stupid thing?
I distinctly remember having a conversation with a friend of mine many years ago when we were doing our own version of 40K. He was writing our Eldar Codex and we got into a discussion over whether Exarchs should have 2 wounds. I convinced him they shouldn't based on the fact that:
1. Marine Sergeants, super-humans genetically altered to do nothing but fight wars, and the leader variety, didn't have 2 wounds, and cost about the same in points.
2. Ork Nobz, who did have two wounds, were just more massive, justifying their W2.
And now here we are - Exarchs have two wounds. He would laugh and laugh if he saw this.
Exarchs, Skitarii Alpha's... Is this a new trend for sarges to make them useful?
BlaxicanX wrote: Who cares if Eldar are unbalanced? So are Tau, Centurions, daemon summoning, Necrons, Knights and about half the rest of the game. Removing Eldar isn't suddenly going to give Orks and Dark Eldar players a chance at winning GT's, they'll just go from getting effortlessly curb stomped by Eldar to getting effortlessly curbstomped by something else.
40K is a broken game. Removing just one aspect of the broken system isn't going to do anything but piss people off.
Makes me laugh that people's defence to a broken release is 'the games already broken' as if that isn't a massive issue in the game.
It makes me laugh that people can't read.
I'm not "defending a broken release", I'm pointing out why carte blanche banning one single faction from the game is idiotic and counter-productive. If you're going to try to fix the game then fix the fething game.
I agree. Some people are starting to sound more and more like "I can't win, ban it!" babies. So ban the new codex and then what's next? What about the next dex GW releases? Ban riptides because they are invincible in your meta? What about Nurgle, I don't like Nurgle so let's ban Deathguard lists...
This is not the 1st time a codex has been deviled before having all the info so people should wait and see before going off half-cocked, plus other mathhammer deathstars also seemed unbeatable at the time only to be hard countered once people knew how to play against them. Does nobody remember the ruckus with the prior GK dex?
BlaxicanX wrote: Who cares if Eldar are unbalanced? So are Tau, Centurions, daemon summoning, Necrons, Knights and about half the rest of the game. Removing Eldar isn't suddenly going to give Orks and Dark Eldar players a chance at winning GT's, they'll just go from getting effortlessly curb stomped by Eldar to getting effortlessly curbstomped by something else.
40K is a broken game. Removing just one aspect of the broken system isn't going to do anything but piss people off.
Makes me laugh that people's defence to a broken release is 'the games already broken' as if that isn't a massive issue in the game.
It makes me laugh that people can't read.
I'm not "defending a broken release", I'm pointing out why carte blanche banning one single faction from the game is idiotic and counter-productive. If you're going to try to fix the game then fix the fething game.
I agree. Some people are starting to sound more and more like "I can't win, ban it!" babies. So ban the new codex and then what's next? What about the next dex GW releases? Ban riptides because they are invincible in your meta? What about Nurgle, I don't like Nurgle so let's ban Deathguard lists...
This is not the 1st time a codex has been deviled before having all the info so people should wait and see before going off half-cocked, plus other mathhammer deathstars also seemed unbeatable at the time only to be hard countered once people knew how to play against them. Does nobody remember the ruckus with the prior GK dex?
M.
While I agree with all the complaining about the Eldar book, in my opinion, the wanting to ban this codex doesn't come solely on the fact that it is ridiculously OP. For me, it stems from the fact that it gaks on every other army's units. Troop choices? Yeah, 7th edition books will have less of them. Eldar? Jetbikes with Heavy weapons galore and Obj Sec. Strength D in regular games and codexes? Alright, here's one unit with it in melee, or a random shooting attack. Eldar? Here's a gak ton of it. OP cheese being nerfed? MSS gone, Tesla nerfed, JotWW nerfed, ext. Eldar? Wave Serpent is still just as good, barely receiving a nerf, and got cheaper. Everything else appears to have gotten better. Super Heavies in regular games? Sure, but they'll usually be appropriately costed and more balanced towards regular games (Obelisk, being very tame and just shooting AP- tesla, is 300 points). Eldar? Here's a 295 point unit that was already being spammed because of its goodness, thats now better and actually cheaper than it was.
Point is, Eldar were already on top. Long range firepower, very devastating firepower, sheer weight of high strength firepower, mobility, durability, psychic powers, special rules, ext. Eldar had it all, and it's even worse now. How are Dark Eldar players suppose to feel? Or Ork players? Hell, I play Necrons (sure, go ahead and say my opinion doesn't matter on this subject), and I don't like the idea of playing against an army that invalidates my army wide special rules. (Massed Strength D ignores my only special rule, and doesn't give a gak about how tough my vehicles are.)
The sheer power level of this codex isn't necessarily the only factor in this rage at the moment. Its the fact that no other codex has received any amount of the same attention (Even Nercons, being very well balanced internally, are not game-breakingly strong. They're just tough units). What's there to say about Chaos as well? Khorne Daemonkin is nowhere near this level, which also doesn't bode well for future Chaos releases.
Well, i don't see much trouble with 7-th eldar dex, to be honest. We won't go in for: ban this unit, restrict scatter lasers, etc. We'll just stick to 6-th eldar dex - it's allready good enough for power-gamers and not bad enough to face for others.
Perhaps the single most telling thing that shows how bad this is that people are seriously suggesting that Eldar Players stick to the OP 6th Ed Codex instead of this monstrosity with the old Cheese Serpents etc now being the lower tier for the powergamers...........
We I guess Eldar have evolved from:
"Wave Serpents - the hard counter to fun" to
"Eldar: the hard counter to Balance..................
Originally Posted by ZeroNoRyouki
Thank you again!
How the Warlock council work now?
Holofields: are they a 5+ inv like in the Harlequins codex? For how many points?
Is there anything that got worse at all?
Warlock conclave Works as a single psyker. 1-3 Lvl1, 4-6 Lvl2, 7+ Lvl 3. They can choose Sacred Daemonlogy and Battle Runes.
Holofields are 5++
Worst things? All is known already: Laser lock is gone and Serpent shields got nerfed.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Originally Posted by Archonon
What about Ghosthelm, and all runes ?
Ghost helm: When suffering a wound, Farseer can spend one warp point and ignore the wound.
Runes of the farseer: Once per turn, Farseer may reroll a psychic test.
Farseer is equipped with both by default. Farseer has same cost.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Originally Posted by ZeroNoRyouki
Also, any changes for the Autharc and excharh powers?
Exarch powers, as we all know them are gone. Now all aspects get a new ability for free. Exarch get for free another one (free as well). And they have 2W.
Autarchs are pretty much the same.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Originally Posted by totgeboren
Do you lose the Serpent Shield for the rest of the game if you shoot it? That is, do you lose the protective aspect of it too if you fire it (since it is one-use only).
Yes. If the shield is fired, you lose it for the rest of the game.
"Ghost helm: When suffering a wound, Farseer can spend one warp point and ignore the wound.
Runes of the farseer: Once per turn, Farseer may reroll a psychic test.
Farseer is equipped with both by default. Farseer has same cost."
Well at least now you lose it all once you fire the serpent shield. That is a much bigger nerf then previously thought and while it doesn't justify the 15(?) point drop it certainly makes it better to swallow.
Mymearan wrote: "Ghost helm: When suffering a wound, Farseer can spend one warp point and ignore the wound.
Runes of the farseer: Once per turn, Farseer may reroll a psychic test.
Farseer is equipped with both by default. Farseer has same cost."
That... is hilarious.
He got me at the "Farseer can spend one warp point to ignore the wound"....
The rest is pretty ridiculous but follows the lines of the codex along with the dominant psychic race of the galaxy, now with extra str6 weaponry
Automatically Appended Next Post:
arinnoor wrote: Well at least now you lose it all once you fire the serpent shield. That is a much bigger nerf then previously thought and while it doesn't justify the 15(?) point drop it certainly makes it better to swallow.
Basically you get to fire them in your last round if you are going second pretty safely so I can say it is quite fixed.
After giving this a bit of though i'm no longer so negative about it. At least i no longer deem necessary reverting to Codex: Wave Serpent.
Let's do a bit of an analysis, trying to follow this concept:
What is good to the gameplay and fun factor of a friendly/semicompetitive /competitive game? Those are the vast majority of the games being played after all.
I'll go through perceived problems one by one.
1) D Template Wraithguards: A min unit dropped with DE ally can take out pretty much any model in game. The chance to take out a land raider is close to 100% with 5 guys, but the unit also costs more than a LR. Something bigger can counter an AD Lance with ease, but the cost starts getting high. Contrarily to the Farsight bomb, they have no mobility to get out of there, and no uber commander to increase survivability. Once dropped they are dead. Taking a squad would be betting on the chance that the enemy is bringing a suitable target, I.E. a model/unit where i can apply 300-350 points of damage in a shooting phase, or is using an army that can't shut them down reliably before a second shooting phase comes. This makes them the counter to:
a) Knights and AD Lance in particular
b) Decurion, they negate their resilience and have good chances to get a second round of shooting (wraiths can't assault those guys and survive overwatch)
c) Tank units
d) Nice way to get rid of Thunderfire cannons
e) Thunderwolves
f) Any deathstar if you can negate invisibility (highly possible with eldar)
In conclusion those guys punish cheese choices (with the exception of point C, poor guards). I dont' see a reason why i wouldn't like to see those in my LGS.
2) A similar analysis can be done on the Hemlock. Sure it has scary firepower, but again we are talking about a lot of points for a 10/10/10, and those blasts can miss. High risk/high reward unit. I like it.
3) Vaul's wrath. If the points remain the same then those things have a scary amount of firepower for their cost. Will have to see the details. There again, they have range 24 on an artillery, so they do have some drawbacks.
4) Bikes. No excuses here, they need something to keep them in check.
5) WKs. No counters in the game except for one unit in one codex that is already getting abused. Exceedingly undercoster. Definitely no go.
So in conclusion:
1) No WKs.
2) 1 in 3 weapons for bikes
And nothing else. With those rulings, the eldar look like a really fun army to play against, and at the same time "heal" our competitive meta a bit, by adding counters to the most cheesy lists. Sure they do have counter to anything in the game and always in a cost efficient way, but that's the eldar's way of doing things. It's not like they don't pay a price on model costs and durability for that. They are the faction that can reap nice rewards but heavily punishes any mistake. What's not to like?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mymearan wrote: "Ghost helm: When suffering a wound, Farseer can spend one warp point and ignore the wound.
Runes of the farseer: Once per turn, Farseer may reroll a psychic test.
Farseer is equipped with both by default. Farseer has same cost."
That... is hilarious.
I'm pretty sure he meant "wound from perils". Well since they removed a lot of dices coming from warlock council this is not as good as it looks.
Dire Avengers: Overwatch at BS2 OR get counter attack and stubborn
Exarch: 4++
Howling banshees: +3" when running or assaulting. Ignore I penalties when assaulting through difficult terrain. Fear. No Overwatch allowed when Banshees assault
Exarch: Units in CC with the Banshees have -2L
Striking Scorpions: Stealth. Shrouded until the fire or assault.
Exarch: During a challenge compare I values. Exarch gets +1A for each point his I is better tan his oponent.
Fire Dragons: +1 on the vehicle damage chart.
Exarch: Once per turn, may reroll one to hit, to wound or to penetrare roll
Swooping Haws: If the move over a flier, every modl gets one special attack that hits on 4+, S4, AP4, Haywire. They move 18"
Exarch: His unit does not scatter if DS
Warp Spiders: They may jump during the opponent's shooting phase. If after the jum, the spiders are out of LoS or reach, firing unit cannot choose another target.
Exarch: His unit reroll all LD tests
Shining Spears: 4+ cover sabe
Exarch: Reroll to wound vs MC and rerolls to penétrate
Dark Reapers: Reroll to hit if target is: Flier, has turboboosted previous turn or moved flat out
Exarch: His weapon fires one more shot tan normally. For example: Heavy 2 becomes Heavy 3
Fun(tm), even if you stay from Wraithstuff or Scatterbikes.
BS5 Fire Dragons with no-scatter Falcon Deepstrike (or WWP) got even better.
Perils - yes. He made it more clear in a later post.
Aspect Warrior rules
Originally Posted by cob
What sort of abilities if you dont mind illuminating us? USRs?
Let's go
Dire Avengers: Overwatch at BS2 OR get counter attack and stubborn
Exarch: 4++
Howling banshees: +3" when running or assaulting. Ignore I penalties when assaulting through difficult terrain. Fear. No Overwatch allowed when Banshees assault
Exarch: Units in CC with the Banshees have -2L
Striking Scorpions: Stealth. Shrouded until the fire or assault.
Exarch: During a challenge compare I values. Exarch gets +1A for each point his I is better tan his oponent.
Fire Dragons: +1 on the vehicle damage chart.
Exarch: Once per turn, may reroll one to hit, to wound or to penetrare roll
Swooping Haws: If the move over a flier, every modl gets one special attack that hits on 4+, S4, AP4, Haywire. They move 18"
Exarch: His unit does not scatter if DS
Warp Spiders: They may jump during the opponent's shooting phase. If after the jum, the spiders are out of LoS or reach, firing unit cannot choose another target.
Exarch: His unit reroll all LD tests
Shining Spears: 4+ cover sabe
Exarch: Reroll to wound vs MC and rerolls to penétrate
Dark Reapers: Reroll to hit if target is: Flier, has turboboosted previous turn or moved flat out
Exarch: His weapon fires one more shot tan normally. For example: Heavy 2 becomes Heavy 3
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Originally Posted by RedemptionNL
- Does Illic now have a Destroyer strength sniper rifle?
- Rangers; any changes? Upgrade to Pathfinders still possible?
- Warlock council; squad size?
- Exarch powers? Do all Exarchs now have Battle Fortune or just the DA one?
Illic weapon is NOT D. He always has precision shots. If the joins a unit of Rangers, all the models in the unit get this ability
Rangers have Shrouded
Spoletta wrote: (wraiths can't assault those guys and survive overwatch)
Wraiths would only lose 2 models on average if they charge a 5 man squad of D-Scythe Wraithguard. And if even one Wraith gets through, the Wraithguard are pretty much fethed.
I'm pretty sure he meant "wound from perils". Well since they removed a lot of dices coming from warlock council this is not as good as it looks.
You don't even have any warp charge points in any other phase than the psychic phase anyway. But yeah, he clarified that it was perils only.
I'm actually loving all those Aspect rules. They fixed Banshees and buffed Scorpions, now all Aspects seem useful. Don't see the need for the Fire Dragon buff, but oh well. Maybe an all-aspect force could be viable, fun and not seen as super cheesy?
Oh and they made Rangers better! The sad thing is that apart from bikes and Wraith-units, this codex seems a lot of fun.
Good god the raggggge and sweet salty tears, which is especially amusing considering a number of the anti-eldar people have previously mentioned playing centstar and other cheese builds.
So honestly I think much of the whining is from people that have found there cheese countered.
Also look on the bright side wave serpents got mauled with a nerf bat like everyone wanted.
Those aspect rules seem pretty cool. At first I thought the codex was largely unchanged from the previous one, but at least there seems to be quite a few things to play around with.
Gutted I didn't pick up on this rumour sooner so I could have sold my old Eldar Codex.
Any word on what Autarchs do? I quite like the new model and the +1/-1 to reserves was really useful for a Dark Eldar Allied army I had in mind.
Originally Posted by Minsc
He's translating for us, so most likely -2 Ld. Seems logical considering that they have Fear.
I'm so happy right now, Howling Banshee's wont be a pointsink this edition!
Edit: Got ninjaed by the man himself.
Nice, Vyper's are cheaper.
Otherwise it seems like GW recycled most of our old upgrades.
So, this is a longshot Iuchiban, but I'm assuming that since you didn't list Holofield amonst the vehicle-upgrades, that means that all Eldar skimmers either come with it by deafult, or have no option to get it?
Forgot that one. Holofields + 15 points. Fliers cannot purchase it.
Spoletta wrote: (wraiths can't assault those guys and survive overwatch)
Wraiths would only lose 2 models on average if they charge a 5 man squad of D-Scythe Wraithguard. And if even one Wraith gets through, the Wraithguard are pretty much fethed.
But Wraiths are pretty much the epitome of (pre-Eldar) cheese (and would likely get Scatter-biked to death by any 7th-Eldar player).
What about Genestealers? Ork Bikers? Bloodcrushers? Ya know.... all your good ol' average 40K-stuff. Even an Imperial Knight is more likely to die in overwatch than not.
Spoletta wrote: (wraiths can't assault those guys and survive overwatch)
Wraiths would only lose 2 models on average if they charge a 5 man squad of D-Scythe Wraithguard. And if even one Wraith gets through, the Wraithguard are pretty much fethed.
I'm pretty sure he meant "wound from perils". Well since they removed a lot of dices coming from warlock council this is not as good as it looks.
You don't even have any warp charge points in any other phase than the psychic phase anyway. But yeah, he clarified that it was perils only.
Oh that's right, i forgot that they still wound on 3+. So yes, wraiths can counter them.
Add to that though that eldars are also a counter to flyrants with the new dark reapers, so they are shaping to be really good for our meta.
MasterOfGaunts wrote: Well, personally I think the balance problem of 40k is mainly NOT related to the rules. Most of the problems just come from some ...(fill in an unkind word for guys with minor intelligence) rolling a D6 to determine point costs of a unit. But this is something that can be fixed. The easiest way to do so is introducing a handicap related to the power level of the codices.
So just an example with some made up numbers:
Eldar 0.83
Orks 1.3
If the tournament says 1850 points, you just multiply that number with the handicap and get a new maximum point value for each army. So in this example orks are allowed to field 2405 points while Eldar just get 1536 points. As I said, the numbers are totally made up and not based on a realistic codex analysis.
I agree that handicap system would be a nice, simple way to balance things out. You could take something like a huge bunch of games, for example combine some big tournie preliminaries, then adjust the handicap based on faction win probability until you get close to an even ~0.5 win chance for every main faction. It wouldn't be a perfect system, but probably the optimal considering the effort spent, and would do the job of getting the power levels closer than currently.
If you wanted it perfect, you could of course take all the codexes, analyse them through, calculate everything.. but that would take months and essentially be rewriting all the codex entries. After that, you'd need to distribute all that stuff to everyone - pretty much impossible for pickup games etc. - and everyone would need to rebuild their lists. Handicap numbers are super simple, just one number for each faction and that's it. Really easy to adopt by anyone, and you can even edit your army list on the fly.
"Mandiblásters got a VERY BIG BOOST. On 4+ they inflict a Wound regardless the T of the target. If target is Gargantuan creature, they only wound on 6's. Saves allowed. BTW, Karandras Mandiblaster wounds on 2+/4+ and ignores saves"
wow! With that and stealth+shrouding, Scorpions might actually be worth taking now.
Iuchiban;7427052 wrote:Dire Avengers: Overwatch at BS2 OR get counter attack and stubborn
Exarch: 4++
So the ability Mechanicus gets on a handful of weapons is a unit wide rule.
Howling banshees: +3" when running or assaulting. Ignore I penalties when assaulting through difficult terrain. Fear. No Overwatch allowed when Banshees assault
Exarch: Units in CC with the Banshees have -2L
Almost Harlequins+ Meanwhile Wych cults remain a joke.
Striking Scorpions: Stealth. Shrouded until the fire or assault.
Exarch: During a challenge compare I values. Exarch gets +1A for each point his I is better tan his oponent.
So a generic unit sergeant gets the rule that Lelith, the best wych in Commorrah lost?
Fire Dragons: +1 on the vehicle damage chart.
Exarch: Once per turn, may reroll one to hit, to wound or to penetrare roll
Why exactly did Fire Dragons need buffed?
Swooping Haws: If the move over a flier, every modl gets one special attack that hits on 4+, S4, AP4, Haywire. They move 18"
Exarch: His unit does not scatter if DS
A rumored rule for stormboyz. Hawks actually get it, and with haywire to boot. And no scatter deepstrike? The thing that Archons have to pay for?
Warp Spiders: They may jump during the opponent's shooting phase. If after the jum, the spiders are out of LoS or reach, firing unit cannot choose another target.
Exarch: His unit reroll all LD tests
So JSJ plus. Is this because GK dared to copy battle focus for a single turn in their detachment so eldar needed something better?
Shining Spears: 4+ cover sabe
Exarch: Reroll to wound vs MC and rerolls to penétrate
Ork bikers lose the rule. Eldar bikers gain it. Sounds fair.
Dark Reapers: Reroll to hit if target is: Flier, has turboboosted previous turn or moved flat out
Exarch: His weapon fires one more shot tan normally. For example: Heavy 2 becomes Heavy 3
Since fliers have a bit better chance of dealing with wraith units without dying, guess we need an aspect to remove that risk.
Apparently GW now lets 12 year olds write their codicies. I mean, this all sounds like some wishlisting or fandex out of bounds.
Beside that, why do so many people compare this to other cheese as a measurement or for justification? Shouldn't gettin rid of OP cheesebuilds be our goal?
So a generic unit sergeant gets the rule that Lelith, the best wych in Commorrah lost?
Remember that any Eldar Guardian (say a poet who has picked up a sword perhaps for the first time in decades) is as skilled in close combat as a Wych (who lives and dies on a dialy basis by hers) -
Why exactly did Fire Dragons need buffed?
AND Eldar Bikers, WraithKinghts, Swooping Hawks, etc etc
Are there ANY units except Cheese Serpents that did not get a boost? And they only became palatable whilst of course getting a points reduction.
Sidstyler wrote: Farseer on bike is already sold out on the US website.
So are Vypers...
I can honestly say this book killed any interest I had in it when they moved Rangers to an Auxiliary spot, removed Illic's Pathfinder upgrade for Rangers, and removed Distort from Illic Nightspear's rifle.
I was planning on running an Alaitoc army as I have four War Walkers, 10 Rangers, Illic Nightspear, and plans to convert up/purchase more Rangers.
Sidstyler wrote: Farseer on bike is already sold out on the US website.
So are Vypers...
I can honestly say this book killed any interest I had in it when they moved Rangers to an Auxiliary spot, removed Illic's Pathfinder upgrade for Rangers, and removed Distort from Illic Nightspear's rifle.
I was planning on running an Alaitoc army as I have four War Walkers, 10 Rangers, Illic Nightspear, and plans to convert up/purchase more Rangers.
Just use a Combined Arms Detachment? And Rangers have Shrouded by default now, and if Illic joins them he confers his precision shooting to the unit.
Sidstyler wrote: Farseer on bike is already sold out on the US website.
So are Vypers...
I can honestly say this book killed any interest I had in it when they moved Rangers to an Auxiliary spot, removed Illic's Pathfinder upgrade for Rangers, and removed Distort from Illic Nightspear's rifle.
I was planning on running an Alaitoc army as I have four War Walkers, 10 Rangers, Illic Nightspear, and plans to convert up/purchase more Rangers.
Just use a Combined Arms Detachment? And Rangers have Shrouded by default now, and if Illic joins them he confers his precision shooting to the unit.
Right, but Pathfinders were not simply "Gain Shrouded".
They also got Illic's Precision Shooting on all shots special rule.
and pathfinders cause ap1 wounds on a hit of 4,5,6
I bought the book yesterday it has decent fluff.
Automatically Appended Next Post: the old craftworld codex isn't as equally as cheesy, but was still pretty cheesy with the other main codex.
I will be playing aspect lists eventually im liking those rules for them, im not sure about wraithguard with strength D it should be on a 6 to hit it becomes D otherwise keep the old profile, I will be making nice fluffy lists now should be fun.
Eldar are specialists.......yes, all of their aspects got cool stuff, the bikes are great etc etc. A player is going to have to choose what to take, he can't have everything.
banning the book entirely or introducing a handicap system is ridiculous. If people are concerned about WG deep striking with an Archaon...just ban allies (but oh no, way too many complaints about doing that), then ban grav guns, a few other units etc. where does it end?
I just find it surprising that people expect the books to be balanced, ha! They are releasing 1 book a month, that means ZERO playtesting possible at all.
I just find it surprising that people expect the books to be balanced, ha! They are releasing 1 book a month, that means ZERO playtesting possible at all.
And you think their CHOICE of accelerated release schedule excuses that? Do you also find it surprising that customers expect a cohesive functional product for their money? Despite what GW claims. they are selling a game with models and gaking on the former with planned early obsolescence and wild variations of utility to sell more of the latter doesn't work for me or apparently a lot of other gamers seeing that as GW continues down this path since 6th edition their unit sales and profits continue to slide.
bullyboy wrote: Eldar are specialists.......yes, all of their aspects got cool stuff, the bikes are great etc etc. A player is going to have to choose what to take, he can't have everything.
If everything is awesome, is that really so bad?
As someone said before: When 15 no-scatter deepstrike BS5 melta guns is going to be considered one of the lesser options in the codex, you know something is borked.
banning the book entirely or introducing a handicap system is ridiculous. If people are concerned about WG deep striking with an Archaon...just ban allies (but oh no, way too many complaints about doing that), then ban grav guns, a few other units etc. where does it end?
No-one will ban the book... but around my area I see this as the last straw that pushes us to a heavily comped system that people have been discussing for the last 12 months. Wraithknights won't be banned.. but taking one to a tourney will have a serious negative effect on your generalship score.
I just find it surprising that people expect the books to be balanced, ha! They are releasing 1 book a month, that means ZERO playtesting possible at all.
'
It is kind of their job to playtest though.
Its not as though these things are difficult to spot. One screenshot of the scatbike rules and anyone who had any interest in balanced play was at least taking a deep breath. When we first heard that wraithlords were going to superheavy anyone with an inkling of what the rules meant was saying 'wow, they'll be 400-500pts now'. Most fandexes wouldn't go as far as this Eldar codex seems to have.
The numbers don't reflect a lack of playtesting: they reflect a lack of knowledge of the rules. They reflect a lack of playing any games with the previous codex or any other codexes.
I'd expect this kind of balance level from an intern, someone who has never written a codex before. But GW has 30 years of experience under their belt, yet they don't seem to have any kind of system in place for getting things right. Compare to (eg) Privateer Press who has been around less than a third of that yet nearly every single model release is equally balanced and competitive against models released that week AND models released five years ago.
I wonder how many of the apologists would have been saying - "its all fine - just play with and against it" if the book had been a actual power loss instead of increase............
Well, I've said all I can say about the rules. So my question is (and apologies if this has been answered): are there any other releases with this codex other than the jetbikes and farseer jetbike, and autarch?
No updated aspects, shining spears, or avatar? Are we just going to one to two new kits every couple of years with a new codex in tow?
I also find it interesting that harlequin troupes are still in the Eldar section of the webstore, I thought they had been removed. Plus it looks like the old autarch on a jetbike got moved into pre-order...you know, because it's not like he hasn't existed forever!
I just find it surprising that people expect the books to be balanced, ha! They are releasing 1 book a month, that means ZERO playtesting possible at all.
Yeah and they release new models every week, but there is still a lengthy design process for each model. Not to mention semi-competent people could knock out a more balanced book than this is in a few days. I dont need to playtest a single thing to know Wraithknights and Jetbikes are OP, I can just look at the statline and points cost.
Mr Morden wrote: I guess there might be a second wave of models - its seems normal?
I just thought we would have seen any new models in the codex. It would seem silly to release half of a release, release said codex, then release a second half but leave the images in the codex as the out-of-date models.
Mymearan wrote: "Mandiblásters got a VERY BIG BOOST. On 4+ they inflict a Wound regardless the T of the target. If target is Gargantuan creature, they only wound on 6's. Saves allowed. BTW, Karandras Mandiblaster wounds on 2+/4+ and ignores saves"
wow! With that and stealth+shrouding, Scorpions might actually be worth taking now.
Karandras was always kind of a hidden gem. That S8 AP2 at initiative with a ton of attacks and a 2+/4++ with Eternal Warrior made me wonder why he wasn't taken more often. Dude's a beatstick. Now he's even better.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What is the news of pathfinders and rangers? I run the same models since 3rd, with an Alaitoc outcast army. It seems like every major craftworld got a formation except them. Maybe they have an upcoming supplement?
Every time I hear people talk about using a Comp of some sort I laugh. Every person I know who has tried it just ends up getting so frustrated with it that they just go back to normal anyway.
This book is pretty OP. But it won't deter me from playing the game. /shrug
Mymearan wrote: "Mandiblásters got a VERY BIG BOOST. On 4+ they inflict a Wound regardless the T of the target. If target is Gargantuan creature, they only wound on 6's. Saves allowed. BTW, Karandras Mandiblaster wounds on 2+/4+ and ignores saves"
wow! With that and stealth+shrouding, Scorpions might actually be worth taking now.
Karandras was always kind of a hidden gem. That S8 AP2 at initiative with a ton of attacks and a 2+/4++ with Eternal Warrior made me wonder why he wasn't taken more often. Dude's a beatstick. Now he's even better.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What is the news of pathfinders and rangers? I run the same models since 3rd, with an Alaitoc outcast army. It seems like every major craftworld got a formation except them. Maybe they have an upcoming supplement?
They might just ignore them - like Wyches.............
bullyboy wrote: Eldar are specialists.......yes, all of their aspects got cool stuff, the bikes are great etc etc. A player is going to have to choose what to take, he can't have everything.
What exactly are jetbikes specialized against again?
"Eldar are specialists" is up there with "Eldar are fragile", "Eldar are expensive" "Eldar are hard to play". Just myths people use to justify OP.
That said I am not going to expect others to approach the game the same way and nor should I. Rules and balance are there for a reason, the burden shouldn't lie on the player to make a list that isn't too powerful. It's poor design.
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