yep, out this weekend...happy birthday to me. Will share my time studying for PT finals and figuring out how my list will need to be adjusted, and if I can fit in a Harlequin detachment (which isn't easy....hate their detachments/CAD)

 Raesvelg wrote:

 warboss wrote:

How does stomp work again?

Unreliably. You're typically gonna be generating a fair number of S6 AP4 hits, but people seem to assume that you're gonna be rolling that 6 on the table (and apparently a 5-6 on the number of Stomps) all the damned time when they talk about how incredible Stomp is. Much like people seem to assume that Destroyer weapons are always gonna roll that same 6.

It's fantastic for some things, of course. That S6 AP4 is sufficient to reliably kill off Sicarians, which is about the only reason why a unit of Ruststalkers won't just gank a WK on turn 2 of the combat, since most of them won't live through the Stomps.

Against Terminators and other reasonably tough models, you'll mostly just be irritating them with Stomp.

33% chance for 3 stomps then 3 chances for a 6. I play IKs, if that's your definition of unreliable then.... Wow.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Talys wrote:

The game is troublesome for people who play to win, only want to play RAW, and aren't considerate of their opponents.

It's very hard to take serious people who quote out of context. I said, "and", which in the English language means that all 3 criteria must be met.

OK, so? Your point is still beyond diluted. Whats wrong with playing RAW? Since your so proud to throw strict English into your argument I find it hilarious your so fast to label others as TFG if they play by the very same standard. It's also beyond ignorant of you to act as though the three aren't mutually exclusive.

So again, even quoting the whole sentence, very hard to take anything you say seriously at all.

I never said that people who want to play 40k RAW and whose primary goal is to win the game regardless of anything else is TFG. Instead, I assert that 40k is a terrible game for that person, and they should find something better to do.

40k is not a videogame on the tabletop, no matter how much someone wants it to be.

At its heart, it is a gaming system designed to support a collection of models that are made to be artistic and cool, not realistic or fair. It was developed in the golden age of RPGs when GMs kept things in check and rules were often bent, changed or ignored, often inconsistently, as a means of improving the experience (look at Rogue Trader). While 40k is not that game anymore, it still has this in its DNA.

Today, 40k is an awesome game when regulars get together and play, certainly to win, but ALSO being considerate of other players. If my opponent has an obviously weak list -- let's say they came back after 10 years, and have no new models yet -- my goal is not to demonstrate how superior I am to them by stomping them good. Knowing the limitations of models of my opponent, I do not craft my list using my superior collection to beat them. If they aren't having fun, I would like to figure out why, and see if there is something I can do about it.

It isn't about coddlling your opponent. It is intramural hockey in a friendly league rather than pro hockey. Sure I want to win, as much as possible, but the real prize is the enjoyment of the game. In order for that to happen, I must be considerate of my opponent.

If the rules are really awful, and a change would make the game better, why not? If someone proposes something reasonable, or if something is unreasonably powerful, I'm happy to compromise.

40k tournaments are no different. Players recognize that certain rules, like invisibility, are just too good and tyonhard to overcome, so they Nerf it, to give everyone involved a better experience.

People who play 40k and love it are like Corvette owners (me! ) -- even though the year old car makes strange sounds, even though it is a pain in the ass, and and the Infiniti SUV runs way better and is a thousand times more practical, we love our vettes and get all giddy around them. We'll talk about them for hours, and don't care if they don't have a third seat or trunk space, or of the blown tire costs $800 to fix. It's just an awesome car, perhaps irrationally so.

likewise, people who love 40k love it knowing that the rules have always been imbalanced -- for three decades this has been so -- and likely forevermore will be. Yet, we have an awesome time competing with each other and find no other preferred form of entertainment.

Now, as I said when I began, if you seek a video game med into tabletop miniatures -- look elsewhere. 40k will disappoint.

So wait people are upset that jetbikes are getting a scatter laser? Seriously the weakest heavy weapon in the 'dex? You can't kill diddly squat with those things. (Or an IG multi laser for that matter.)

Call it OP when they can take bright lances, and starcannons. Or anything with an actual AP.

 agnosto wrote:
33% chance for 3 stomps then 3 chances for a 6. I play IKs, if that's your definition of unreliable then.... Wow.

This just means that WKs are better than IKs when you put the two against each other, not that WKs are unbeatable, nor that there aren't other units that will disproportionately defeat Wraithknights. Nor that IKs don't have their advantages (not being a LoW, and being able to just take as many as you want without regard for any other unit, being one).

Yes, if you only want to play Imperial Knights and you will only play against Wraithknights, then yeah, you're pretty much screwed.

Scrap that.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
So wait people are upset that jetbikes are getting a scatter laser? Seriously the weakest heavy weapon in the 'dex? You can't kill diddly squat with those things. (Or an IG multi laser for that matter.)

Call it OP when they can take bright lances, and starcannons. Or anything with an actual AP.

You are joking right?

 koooaei wrote:
Scrap that.

I liked where you were going with it.

I'm on the fence about massed Jetbikes w/ Scatterlasers. I've on and off run 9 War Walkers with Scatterlasers since 5th edition and they are hit or miss. 24 Shots would typically kill 4 Space Marines. This can drop a bit more due to how available things like FNP, Shrouding while in 4+ cover, Invisibility etc... Personally, I'd prefer my Wave Serpents as they were more durable and put out fantastic firepower for the points.

The Jetbikes are wonderful looking models. I know I will buy some, but I don't foresee taking masses of them. I need to look at all the other options as the type of armies

Help me understand this please.

Distortion Weapons
All Distortion weapons are Strength D. All of them. But the scythes apply a -1 when rolling on the D table, and the strength is considered to be 4 when calculating the instant death



So that means that on a 1 or a 2 the do no damage right? so 33% chance of doing nothing... hope I am reading that right.


Not understanding the wounding on them for sure. It says they are str 4 for instant death. are they str 10 for wounding then????
Sorry just confused

shadowfinder wrote:
Help me understand this please.

Distortion Weapons
All Distortion weapons are Strength D. All of them. But the scythes apply a -1 when rolling on the D table, and the strength is considered to be 4 when calculating the instant death



So that means that on a 1 or a 2 the do no damage right? so 33% chance of doing nothing... hope I am reading that right.


Not understanding the wounding on them for sure. It says they are str 4 for instant death. are they str 10 for wounding then????
Sorry just confused

That also confuses me.

Where was the source for that information anyhow? I find it extremely hard to believe that Wraithguard got bumped to Strength D with no points increase. How many people would pay 32 pts to have a grot with a D weapon? How many people would pay 32 pts for a fearless T6 3+ model with a D weapon?

who knows, maybe the wraithcannon and d-scythes are heavy and wraithguard lose relentless. what if the Jetbikes while all being equipped with a heavy weapon only a few can actually fire it during a turn. patience

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
So wait people are upset that jetbikes are getting a scatter laser? Seriously the weakest heavy weapon in the 'dex? You can't kill diddly squat with those things. (Or an IG multi laser for that matter.)

Call it OP when they can take bright lances, and starcannons. Or anything with an actual AP.

You are joking right?

Well...I'd LIKE to have jetbikes with starcannons and bright lances at least.

But Scatterlasers even in masse do nothing to the +3 sv armies out there, and even armies with +4s like Tau aren't going to shake too much over it.

Against Orks and Nids, it 'might' be better then a shuriken cannon, but even then I'd still rather have a better AP then overall STR, same reason I prefer Heavy Bolters over multilasers (or anything over a multilaser in IG)

Lol if you think 40 Scatter Laser shots w/ BS 4 won't decimate 3++ or 3 +.

 Januine wrote:

Javin wrote:
Heh already had four friends dump their armies and are buying Eldar. At our local store almost 75% of the players are buying/playing eldar now. I guess I will retire my armies and buy Eldar too. Well played GW. All other armies are no longer viable.

You in South Korea Javin?

Yes I am.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
So wait people are upset that jetbikes are getting a scatter laser? Seriously the weakest heavy weapon in the 'dex? You can't kill diddly squat with those things. (Or an IG multi laser for that matter.)

Call it OP when they can take bright lances, and starcannons. Or anything with an actual AP.

You are joking right?

Well...I'd LIKE to have jetbikes with starcannons and bright lances at least.

But Scatterlasers even in masse do nothing to the +3 sv armies out there, and even armies with +4s like Tau aren't going to shake too much over it.

Against Orks and Nids, it 'might' be better then a shuriken cannon, but even then I'd still rather have a better AP then overall STR, same reason I prefer Heavy Bolters over multilasers (or anything over a multilaser in IG)

You do realize that 4 shots per model that hits on 3s and wounds on 2s is still frelling scary to 3+ saves, right? A min unit of 3 bikes is still killing a MEQ each turn for what is only a 81 point unit that won't take return fire from anything but heavy weapons thanks to a 36" range and 2d6 assault move after.

Being able to save against a shot doesn't mean much when there's a crap ton of them that wound on anything but 1s and can do so from outside most gun ranges in the game save specialist guns.

You must have better luck then I do. 40 shots of anything that lets a marine save...I might kill 3-4.

7.4 as I make it out. Might be wrong though

That might be mathhammer but MEQs tend to do better then what they statistically should.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
7.4 as I make it out. Might be wrong though

You are correct. Against T4 3+ models, a squad of scatriders kills 7.4 of them on average.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
That might be mathhammer but MEQs tend to do better then what they statistically should.

And I've always noticed the exact opposite. 5 man squad takes 10 wounds, squad dies. That is why we use averages.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
That might be mathhammer but MEQs tend to do better then what they statistically should.

No they don't? They do as they statistically should. That's sorta how statistics work. You might perceive them to do better than that or you might have somehow been very unlucky and only ever seen them do better, but generally they don't.

 warboss wrote:

He simply said it can't be done. Clearly that isn't the case.

Yes, but when you ask a silly rhetorical question, you get a silly explicit answer. The way people keep presenting things in this thread is entertaining as hell. The Wraithknight is grotesquely undercosted, but it's not invincible, and there are things equal to or less than its own points value that can destroy it. Similarly, it's very powerful, but it can't just walk on the board and obliterate everything it sees.

It's just... overly good for its points.

 agnosto wrote:

33% chance for 3 stomps then 3 chances for a 6. I play IKs, if that's your definition of unreliable then.... Wow.

You will, on average, get two chances to roll that 6 per round. Given the way that works out, it probably will not happen.

Ergo, unreliable. If you charge your IKs into things that can kill them in two rounds assuming that you'll Stomp them to death at the end of the first then... Wow.

 Mulletdude wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
7.4 as I make it out. Might be wrong though

You are correct. Against T4 3+ models, a squad of scatriders kills 7.4 of them on average.

Thanks.


IIRC scatter lasers are AP5, so that means that same 40 will kill 11.1 FWs, and 22.2 IG.

So a squad of FWs a turn, and a feth ton a dead gaurd (not sure about gaurd squad sizes). Although this may get people to use more cover (finally)

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Thanks.

IIRC scatter lasers are AP5, so that means that same 40 will kill 11.1 FWs, and 22.2 IG.

So a squad of FWs a turn, and a feth ton a dead gaurd (not sure about gaurd squad sizes). Although this may get people to use more cover (finally)

AP6 actually. So "only" 14.8 dead IG.

Entertainingly, given that a bare-bones squad of IG is 50 points, you could buy six squads for not too much more than the Jetbikes cost. And said Jetbikes could spend four full turns killing them all. Almost six turns if they're smart enough to find some 4+ cover. Eight turns if they bother to go to ground. Sixteen turns if they go to ground behind an Aegis Line!

Of course, the Jetbikes could fly over said Aegis Line to shoot the Guardsmen in the back. Which makes it a pity that Get Back In The Fight! is a Senior Officer-only Order, because it'd be funny as hell to see the surviving 40 Guardsmen pop back up and kill off half the Jetbikes with... lasguns.

To those who mentioned mentioned Neuro Disrupters, does Fleshbane wound GMC on 2+? I thought they only wounded on 6's, no?

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
So wait people are upset that jetbikes are getting a scatter laser? Seriously the weakest heavy weapon in the 'dex? You can't kill diddly squat with those things. (Or an IG multi laser for that matter.)

Call it OP when they can take bright lances, and starcannons. Or anything with an actual AP.

No offence, but this is easily the most incorrect post I have seen this year.
I can't even begin to explain how out of touch this opinion is...

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
So wait people are upset that jetbikes are getting a scatter laser? Seriously the weakest heavy weapon in the 'dex? You can't kill diddly squat with those things. (Or an IG multi laser for that matter.)

Call it OP when they can take bright lances, and starcannons. Or anything with an actual AP.

Do you really need an AP to kill Guard, Orks and Tyranids in droves?
Do you really need an AP to strip Hull Points off vehicles?

S6 with 6 shots. Guide will still be a thing I suspect.

So with Guide up...that's equivalent to every jetbike having twin-linked brainleech devourers.

You know, those things Tyranids tend to use to mess up units and vehicles through sheer weight of fire.

 Zewrath wrote:
To those who mentioned mentioned Neuro Disrupters, does Fleshbane wound GMC on 2+? I thought they only wounded on 6's, no?

No. Sniper and Poisoned only wound them on a 6, and they only take D3 wounds from Instant Death weapons, but Fleshbane is still a 2+ to wound.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
So wait people are upset that jetbikes are getting a scatter laser? Seriously the weakest heavy weapon in the 'dex? You can't kill diddly squat with those things. (Or an IG multi laser for that matter.)

Call it OP when they can take bright lances, and starcannons. Or anything with an actual AP.

Do you really need an AP to kill Guard, Orks and Tyranids in droves?
Do you really need an AP to strip Hull Points off vehicles?

S6 with 6 shots. Guide will still be a thing I suspect.

So with Guide up...that's equivalent to every jetbike having twin-linked brainleech devourers.

You know, those things Tyranids tend to use to mess up units and vehicles through sheer weight of fire.

6 Shots? It's like they're getting better with each post. They're 4 shots.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
So wait people are upset that jetbikes are getting a scatter laser? Seriously the weakest heavy weapon in the 'dex? You can't kill diddly squat with those things. (Or an IG multi laser for that matter.)

Call it OP when they can take bright lances, and starcannons. Or anything with an actual AP.

Do you really need an AP to kill Guard, Orks and Tyranids in droves?
Do you really need an AP to strip Hull Points off vehicles?

S6 with 6 shots. Guide will still be a thing I suspect.

So with Guide up...that's equivalent to every jetbike having twin-linked brainleech devourers.

You know, those things Tyranids tend to use to mess up units and vehicles through sheer weight of fire.

It's 4 shots per Scatter Laser but your point still stands.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
So wait people are upset that jetbikes are getting a scatter laser? Seriously the weakest heavy weapon in the 'dex? You can't kill diddly squat with those things. (Or an IG multi laser for that matter.)

Call it OP when they can take bright lances, and starcannons. Or anything with an actual AP.

Do you really need an AP to kill Guard, Orks and Tyranids in droves?
Do you really need an AP to strip Hull Points off vehicles?

S6 with 6 shots. Guide will still be a thing I suspect.

So with Guide up...that's equivalent to every jetbike having twin-linked brainleech devourers.

You know, those things Tyranids tend to use to mess up units and vehicles through sheer weight of fire.

Scatter lasers only have four shots.

Honestly guys, I played a game tonight against my Eldar buddy as a last Hurrah with his codex. I used my Necrons. He got utterly and unequivocally creamed. So, I fele bad saying that Eldar don't need something. They actually got rather bad if you can make their vehicles jink. Now that they're worse, I mean, eh?

Me and some friends sat and looked at the changes to Eldar coming out. While there are obvious cheese available, the detachment alone makes it harder to do that, and you're very limited on how you bring this stuff, such as Necrons are. The only thing is, Eldar are paying a premium (Except for the Wraithknight, that things too cheap) for what they get. And the detachment helps limit it even more, so they overall don't end up having much.

And even then, spamming Scatriders and Wraithknights probably wouldn't even win you games in a competitive setting. And if it does, come at me when I drop two Monoliths with evacuating guys on your side of the board. Your wraithguard fold, and your bikes die. Good day sir.

So, We'll see what happens, but people need to look at all the angles. Yeah, this release is overall a bit stupid, and they could've done a lot more to this book to make it more balanced, but it's not the end of the world. Eldar probably won't be facerolling everyone, unless you, yourself, let it happen.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Do you really need an AP to kill Guard, Orks and Tyranids in droves?
Do you really need an AP to strip Hull Points off vehicles?

S6 with 6 shots. Guide will still be a thing I suspect.

So with Guide up...that's equivalent to every jetbike having twin-linked brainleech devourers.

You know, those things Tyranids tend to use to mess up units and vehicles through sheer weight of fire.

Well, they haven't had 6 shots in 19 years, so I think you're safe on that one. 36" S6 AP6 Heavy 4. Still a very nice gun and way too good for a 10 point upgrade though.

Caederes wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
So wait people are upset that jetbikes are getting a scatter laser? Seriously the weakest heavy weapon in the 'dex? You can't kill diddly squat with those things. (Or an IG multi laser for that matter.)

Call it OP when they can take bright lances, and starcannons. Or anything with an actual AP.

Do you really need an AP to kill Guard, Orks and Tyranids in droves?
Do you really need an AP to strip Hull Points off vehicles?

S6 with 6 shots. Guide will still be a thing I suspect.

So with Guide up...that's equivalent to every jetbike having twin-linked brainleech devourers.

You know, those things Tyranids tend to use to mess up units and vehicles through sheer weight of fire.

It's 4 shots per Scatter Laser but your point still stands.

Thank you and apologies. Brain no work after waking up.

Point is there's still enough fire in 4 shots to worry a horde. And when put on a fast moving platform that can turbo boost about a bit and get behind your vehicles relatively easily? Yeah. It'll worry vehicles too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Honestly guys, I played a game tonight against my Eldar buddy as a last Hurrah with his codex. I used my Necrons. He got utterly and unequivocally creamed. So, I fele bad saying that Eldar don't need something. They actually got rather bad if you can make their vehicles jink. Now that they're worse, I mean, eh?

Wait, wait, wait. You played a game against a list you and everyone else have had 2 years to learn to overcome and adapt to. And because you can beat said list with Necrons it needs to be buffed?

No. No no no. That is terrible reasoning.

Hey guys, I played against this thing that I've learned how to beat over the last two years and beat it, therefore let's buff the ever living crap out of it.

Assuming you know this buddy and have known him for a while...odds are he uses a similar if not the same list for every game or so.
His codex doesn't need a buff. He needs to switch things up. That's sort of how a meta works, regardless of what it's in...

OK, they've learned how to beat X. Y looks interesting. Let's throw Y in and see if they can deal with that.

ImAGeek wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
That might be mathhammer but MEQs tend to do better then what they statistically should.

No they don't? They do as they statistically should. That's sorta how statistics work. You might perceive them to do better than that or you might have somehow been very unlucky and only ever seen them do better, but generally they don't.

Hahahahahahaha. I'm sorry, I have to chime in.

@ImAGeek - Yeah! It's just simple probability.

@KingmanHighborn - If you Play Moar..... eventually... dem dice rolls will be the mathematical mean.

However:

In reality, you don't have an empty 6' table with scatter lasers on one end, bolters on the other, and they run towards each other until the jetbikes can JSJ in and out and kill all the marines. Because if that happens, the marine player is just slowed. also, 10 windriders costs.. 80? ... more points than 10 marines with lascannon and 2 plasmas.

JSJ also has diminishing returns as you add more units and terrain. Basically, if you have 10-20 jetbikes, they can be very effective, but if you have 40-60 jetbikes, they will have nowhere to retreat to, and just get in the way of all your other stuff.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Honestly guys, I played a game tonight against my Eldar buddy as a last Hurrah with his codex. I used my Necrons. He got utterly and unequivocally creamed. So, I fele bad saying that Eldar don't need something. They actually got rather bad if you can make their vehicles jink. Now that they're worse, I mean, eh?

Me and some friends sat and looked at the changes to Eldar coming out. While there are obvious cheese available, the detachment alone makes it harder to do that, and you're very limited on how you bring this stuff, such as Necrons are. The only thing is, Eldar are paying a premium (Except for the Wraithknight, that things too cheap) for what they get. And the detachment helps limit it even more, so they overall don't end up having much.

And even then, spamming Scatriders and Wraithknights probably wouldn't even win you games in a competitive setting. And if it does, come at me when I drop two Monoliths with evacuating guys on your side of the board. Your wraithguard fold, and your bikes die. Good day sir.

So, We'll see what happens, but people need to look at all the angles. Yeah, this release is overall a bit stupid, and they could've done a lot more to this book to make it more balanced, but it's not the end of the world. Eldar probably won't be facerolling everyone, unless you, yourself, let it happen.

well of course it dosent look cheezy to you two. You are playing the best 2 armies in the game power wise. Try fighting him with orks, or non flyrant spamming tyranids, or 4 or 5 other armies that stand no chance. Eldar and necrons dont exist in a vacumme.

 Talys wrote:

In reality, you don't have an empty 6' table with scatter lasers on one end, bolters on the other, and they run towards each other until the jetbikes can JSJ in and out and kill all the marines. Because if that happens, the marine player is just slowed. also, 10 windriders costs.. 80? ... more points than 10 marines with lascannon and 2 plasmas.

JSJ also has diminishing returns as you add more units and terrain. Basically, if you have 10-20 jetbikes, they can be very effective, but if you have 40-60 jetbikes, they will have nowhere to retreat to, and just get in the way of all your other stuff.

While it's true that sterile mathhammering is silly ("hey, Skitarii Vanguard will beat Eldar Guardians 100% of the time for the same points cost! Clearly Skitarii are broken!"), it does help to give a general idea of just how good a given unit is.

And Scatterlaser Jetbikes are just way too good for 27 points. Yes, vs an equal points value of, say, Dark Reapers (which are pretty much custom made for killing Jetbikes and such), it comes down to who gets to take the first shot.

But Eldar Jetbikes are extremely mobile whereas Dark Reapers are about as slow as Eldar get, and as such they're probably going to be setting the terms of that engagement. So assuming two players of equal skill they're going to win that fight most of the time, vs something that is for all intents and purposes designed specifically to kill them.

Personally, I thought that Windrider Jetbikes should have either gone up in points, or dropped to 4+ armor. Which wouldn't be quite as bad, given that with 4+ armor, the number of things that can effectively kill them would be vastly increased.

The irony for me is that the 10 point Scatter Laser is hypothetically what you get when you strip Laser Lock off of it, but GW apparently forgot that they gave Laser Lock to Scatter Lasers for free last time.

Well at least a Necron player came in to prove the point, this new Eldar stuff is just 'nice to have' but it's not OMG the world is falling apart! Waah! Waah! that people have been going on about recently.

Talys I've been playing since 2000, my experience is always going to be

1. If it's a Necron it's going to kill whatever I have with no problem and get right back up every time I knock them down.

2. If it's a +3 save it will probably be made.

3. If it's a +2 my opponent will always make it...and I won't.

4. Plasma will blow up right at the worst possible moment.


As far as Darkstar's comments.

No I don't NEED it but it's certainly nice to have. There is though pesky Scions/Stormtroopers that make having a better AP weapon preferable. Nids have their big fellas and a scatter laser 'might' tickle them after awhile. Orks...eh...but they've need a buff anyways. (Choppas should reduce ALL saves to +4 dang it!!!!)

As far as hull points, sure against AV11 or otherwise light armored stuff. But in that case if I'm playing Eldar I'm putting bright lances and fire dragons to task on armor.

All this being said...temptation to get back into Eldar is rising. And I've always wanted to do either an Alitoc or Saim-Han army.

 Raesvelg wrote:
And Scatterlaser Jetbikes are just way too good for 27 points. Yes, vs an equal points value of, say, Dark Reapers (which are pretty much custom made for killing Jetbikes and such), it comes down to who gets to take the first shot.

...

The irony for me is that the 10 point Scatter Laser is hypothetically what you get when you strip Laser Lock off of it, but GW apparently forgot that they gave Laser Lock to Scatter Lasers for free last time.

You are right. But I would be happier if people would also say 17 points for an eldar jetbike with a shuriken catapult with bladestorm is way too good too.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Hey guys, I played against this thing that I've learned how to beat over the last two years and beat it, therefore let's buff the ever living crap out of it.

Probably the same logic the GW design team uses, honestly. Phil Kelly's Eldar are probably starting to get beat by the other designers now and he needs to crank things up another notch.

So, is the book a good one or not?

Phil Kelly is not writing army books anymore - his books were good imho, especially his 5th Ed SW Codex

Warhams-77 wrote:
Phil Kelly is not writing army books anymore - his books were good imho, especially his 5th Ed SW Codex

5-th ed SW were annoying as they were marines+1 with questionable fluff.

Warhams-77 wrote:
Phil Kelly is not writing army books anymore - his books were good imho, especially his 5th Ed SW Codex

Source for Phil Kelly not writing the books anymore?

He's always been quite hit and miss, I mean look at 6th CSM. Even Eldar in 6th had pretty bad internal balance. But then the 5th DE codex was pretty damn good.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Well at least a Necron player came in to prove the point, this new Eldar stuff is just 'nice to have' but it's not OMG the world is falling apart! Waah! Waah! that people have been going on about recently.

Talys I've been playing since 2000, my experience is always going to be

1. If it's a Necron it's going to kill whatever I have with no problem and get right back up every time I knock them down.

2. If it's a +3 save it will probably be made.

3. If it's a +2 my opponent will always make it...and I won't.

4. Plasma will blow up right at the worst possible moment.


As far as Darkstar's comments.

No I don't NEED it but it's certainly nice to have. There is though pesky Scions/Stormtroopers that make having a better AP weapon preferable. Nids have their big fellas and a scatter laser 'might' tickle them after awhile. Orks...eh...but they've need a buff anyways. (Choppas should reduce ALL saves to +4 dang it!!!!)

As far as hull points, sure against AV11 or otherwise light armored stuff. But in that case if I'm playing Eldar I'm putting bright lances and fire dragons to task on armor.

All this being said...temptation to get back into Eldar is rising. And I've always wanted to do either an Alitoc or Saim-Han army.

What point was proved? That a Necron army can beat a 6th ed Eldar army? That after 2 years people have developed tactics to deal with certain armies?

That you're more likely to beat a person you play against regularly, especially if they don't switch up their list often as you know how they think, how they play and what they tend to do?

That's not a point. That's how a meta evolves. X is strong. You spend time learning how to beat X. X starts losing. Someone, somewhere introduces Y to the mix. Y becomes strong. People have to adapt to beat Y. Lists that beat Y are weak to X. X becomes strong again.

This is especially true of Eldar. . Aspect Spam 2nd, Bike and Ranger spam 3rd, Aspect and Bike spam in 4th, Serpent spam in 5th, Serpent or Wraith spam in 6th back to bike spam and wraith spam in 7th.

With regards to the scatter lasers vs. TMCs? Uh, way to miss the point. The point there is the scatter laser has fantastic utility on a 27 point model. Insane utility in fact. A high enough rate of fire to worry hordes or elite units, high strength to worry vehicles and MCs and it's on a fast moving, fairly durable platform that is remarkably inexpensive for what it does. To put it in perspective. Yeah, it's AP 6. It's also got a 3 foot range on a unit that can perpetually move back and can move forward at quite a respectable pace. Assault armies will not catch it and it has enough range to worry firepower based armies. Plus, the very same army with this will likely be crapping out D-weapon Wraithknights which will happily dispose of TMCs.

Perhaps it's the Tyranid player in me speaking but a lot of Eldar players here just don't appreciate how good jetbikes have become. Or perhaps they don't appreciate how incredibly potent a fast moving, long ranged, multiple shot S6 weapon is. Dear god. People kick up a stink about Flyrants (which are all twin-devourer armed to be frank, anything else is sub-par) but sit here and let this by without a problem?

Oh, but a Flyrant is hard to kill. Yes. But really, the risk of the Flyrant comes in what it actually does. If you have a brick that does NOTHING then it's not a threat or a problem to anything. Flyrants fly forward, spray horrendous amounts of S6 firepower into things and are annoying to kill.

For roughly the same cost of an upgraded, fancy Flyrant you have 9 of these bloody bikes zipping around.

So, let's compare.

Flyrant. 18 inch range. 12 shots at BS4 with rerolls.
Bikes. 36 inch range (42 if you want to include them jumping forward and back). 36 shots at BS3. Plus, Objective secured in a CAD or Ally detachment.

Sure, the bikes are easier to wound and kill. But they have more than double the Flyrants effective range. If there is some sort of artifact or psychic power that gives a character and its unit skyfire? Well, RIP based Flyrant.

It would seem to me it's not that the bikes have these weapons but the bikes are under costed. In my opinion this is a problem with their previous incarnation in the sixth book which unfortunately has been carried on into this new seventh book . It really didn't matter if the jet bikes all could take the heavy weapons what matters they were still not priced appropriately for even being just what they were . 17 points for one bikers is still too good for a mere three points you get superb mobility over the space marine and you really only have a few stats that are lower. It is the same kinda math between CSM and SM

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Well at least a Necron player came in to prove the point, this new Eldar stuff is just 'nice to have' but it's not OMG the world is falling apart! Waah! Waah! that people have been going on about recently.

Talys I've been playing since 2000, my experience is always going to be

1. If it's a Necron it's going to kill whatever I have with no problem and get right back up every time I knock them down.

2. If it's a +3 save it will probably be made.

3. If it's a +2 my opponent will always make it...and I won't.

4. Plasma will blow up right at the worst possible moment.


As far as Darkstar's comments.

No I don't NEED it but it's certainly nice to have. There is though pesky Scions/Stormtroopers that make having a better AP weapon preferable. Nids have their big fellas and a scatter laser 'might' tickle them after awhile. Orks...eh...but they've need a buff anyways. (Choppas should reduce ALL saves to +4 dang it!!!!)

As far as hull points, sure against AV11 or otherwise light armored stuff. But in that case if I'm playing Eldar I'm putting bright lances and fire dragons to task on armor.

All this being said...temptation to get back into Eldar is rising. And I've always wanted to do either an Alitoc or Saim-Han army.

What point was proved? That a Necron army can beat a 6th ed Eldar army? That after 2 years people have developed tactics to deal with certain armies?

That you're more likely to beat a person you play against regularly, especially if they don't switch up their list often as you know how they think, how they play and what they tend to do?

That's not a point. That's how a meta evolves. X is strong. You spend time learning how to beat X. X starts losing. Someone, somewhere introduces Y to the mix. Y becomes strong. People have to adapt to beat Y. Lists that beat Y are weak to X. X becomes strong again.

This is especially true of Eldar. . Aspect Spam 2nd, Bike and Ranger spam 3rd, Aspect and Bike spam in 4th, Serpent spam in 5th, Serpent or Wraith spam in 6th back to bike spam and wraith spam in 7th.

With regards to the scatter lasers vs. TMCs? Uh, way to miss the point. The point there is the scatter laser has fantastic utility on a 27 point model. Insane utility in fact. A high enough rate of fire to worry hordes or elite units, high strength to worry vehicles and MCs and it's on a fast moving, fairly durable platform that is remarkably inexpensive for what it does. To put it in perspective. Yeah, it's AP 6. It's also got a 3 foot range on a unit that can perpetually move back and can move forward at quite a respectable pace. Assault armies will not catch it and it has enough range to worry firepower based armies. Plus, the very same army with this will likely be crapping out D-weapon Wraithknights which will happily dispose of TMCs.

Perhaps it's the Tyranid player in me speaking but a lot of Eldar players here just don't appreciate how good jetbikes have become. Or perhaps they don't appreciate how incredibly potent a fast moving, long ranged, multiple shot S6 weapon is. Dear god. People kick up a stink about Flyrants (which are all twin-devourer armed to be frank, anything else is sub-par) but sit here and let this by without a problem?

Oh, but a Flyrant is hard to kill. Yes. But really, the risk of the Flyrant comes in what it actually does. If you have a brick that does NOTHING then it's not a threat or a problem to anything. Flyrants fly forward, spray horrendous amounts of S6 firepower into things and are annoying to kill.

For roughly the same cost of an upgraded, fancy Flyrant you have 9 of these bloody bikes zipping around.

So, let's compare.

Flyrant. 18 inch range. 12 shots at BS4 with rerolls.
Bikes. 36 inch range (42 if you want to include them jumping forward and back). 36 shots at BS3. Plus, Objective secured in a CAD or Ally detachment.

Sure, the bikes are easier to wound and kill. But they have more than double the Flyrants effective range. If there is some sort of artifact or psychic power that gives a character and its unit skyfire? Well, RIP based Flyrant.

Bikes are BS4.

 TedNugent wrote:

 Fishboy wrote:
Guys I used to play WK's and I can tell you they are far from unbeatable. Ork loots eat tem for lunch

Just stop. You're being incredibly disingenuous.

http://www.heresy-online.net/combatcalculator/shooting.php?1=Attacker%20Group%201;30;2;2;7;4;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;&d=Defender%20Group;1;6;8;3;;;;;1;;&v=0

Just a quick note that the combat calculator is pretty outdated by now. For example, it still thinks Feel No Pain is on a 4+ instead of 5+, which skews numbers.

Nocturnus wrote:

Bikes are BS4.

That just makes it even worse really.

Totally need more people with other armies complaining here and insinuating Eldar players have no clue

Suite wrote:
Totally need more people with other armies complaining here and insinuating Eldar players have no clue

More like people who realise exactly what sort of Pandora's box GW opened.

Because it's not pretty. It's really not pretty at all.

Only reason my Eldar aren't used is because I'm too lazy to resume a yellow/red scheme. But yeah, I'm beginning to think the recent toning down we saw all just got thrown out the window.

Has it been confirmed that this is all a hoax yet?

This would be a pretty long-winded and intricate hoax.

Any rumors on an Eldar second wave next week?
Are we getting any new aspects done in plastic?

Well...
I am just glad there are new jetbikes.
I have been collecting Eldar, Harlequin and Dark Eldar jetbikes for (many) years and with the new models i have 2 types of jetbikes for Eldar, Dark Eldar and Harlequins: PERFECT!

That a maxed army might be overpowered: we will see.
I never liked the Wraithlord armies in 3rd and 4th, the skimmer armies in 5th and the wave serpents in 6th (faced 6 serpents plus 2 wraithknights in a tournament recently, no fun whatsoever), so i look forward to a new codex that IMO cannot have a worse effect then the previous.

Yes, jetbikes can have firepower that seems a bit too much, but they remain fragile.

How should we should call it guys? Eldargate or scattergate?

I really enjoy the aspects buffs and I wish there was a formation where you could play purely aspects like the old biel Tan. Models are holding up but some of them would be really great if they got an update like spiders and shinning spears (which btw is plain stupid they didn't got a model).

But besides that the buff to jetbikes, Wraithknights and wraithguard destroyer weapons weren't that necessary at all. The serpents maintained their survivability but now the payload they are gonna deliver is far deadlier...

 Talys wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
33% chance for 3 stomps then 3 chances for a 6. I play IKs, if that's your definition of unreliable then.... Wow.

This just means that WKs are better than IKs when you put the two against each other, not that WKs are unbeatable, nor that there aren't other units that will disproportionately defeat Wraithknights. Nor that IKs don't have their advantages (not being a LoW, and being able to just take as many as you want without regard for any other unit, being one).

Yes, if you only want to play Imperial Knights and you will only play against Wraithknights, then yeah, you're pretty much screwed.

No, my post was in regards to stomps being declared unreliable. I have no idea what your response to my post is about because I wasn't complaining about WKs or anything else just someone's silly comment that stomps don't work (because they do).

 Squidmanlolz wrote:
Any rumors on an Eldar second wave next week?
Are we getting any new aspects done in plastic?

There is no second wave from last reports. This is it. Next week is Assassins.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7qAWauBAkM

 w0lfgang7 wrote:

 Squidmanlolz wrote:
Any rumors on an Eldar second wave next week?
Are we getting any new aspects done in plastic?

There is no second wave from last reports. This is it. Next week is Assassins.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7qAWauBAkM

Well, that's more disappointing than anything I've read about the codex.
At least there's word of Genestealers/Tyranids later this year.

A quick question on the swooping hawks as I understand they now have an 18" movement and if they pass over a flyer they also get a special attack against the flyer. Before they always had haywire nades and could attack land based vehicles, have they now lost this ability for the flying attack or can they still also assualt land vehicles? Thanks.

I think the 18" move and grenade attack replaces skyleap.

 Raesvelg wrote:


You will, on average, get two chances to roll that 6 per round. Given the way that works out, it probably will not happen.

Ergo, unreliable. If you charge your IKs into things that can kill them in two rounds assuming that you'll Stomp them to death at the end of the first then... Wow.

You don't depend upon stomps, they're an additional attack that you can make at the end of combat that can kill off a couple more models or even a whole unit. It's nice but it's the previous rounds of shooting that softened the unit up followed by the hammer of wrath then the 4 or 5 assault attacks then the stomps. You see, nothing exists in a vacuum, it's all part of the bundle. Sure, if all it had were stomps, it would suck but there are all the other things that I just mentioned that mean a superheavy or gargantuan creature can deal some damage. Saying one part of their assault package is unreliable is a bit silly because it's just one part of the assault package, not the entire package.

 ImAGeek wrote:

Warhams-77 wrote:
Phil Kelly is not writing army books anymore - his books were good imho, especially his 5th Ed SW Codex

Source for Phil Kelly not writing the books anymore?

He's always been quite hit and miss, I mean look at 6th CSM. Even Eldar in 6th had pretty bad internal balance. But then the 5th DE codex was pretty damn good.

These two are some of several posts I had read about it: (links corrected)

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/593073.page#6788863
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/593073.page#6788929

The GW design studio is now two teams, one of them focussing on fluff material. Mr. Kelly is part of it

Warhams-77 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

Warhams-77 wrote:
Phil Kelly is not writing army books anymore - his books were good imho, especially his 5th Ed SW Codex

Source for Phil Kelly not writing the books anymore?

He's always been quite hit and miss, I mean look at 6th CSM. Even Eldar in 6th had pretty bad internal balance. But then the 5th DE codex was pretty damn good.

These two are some of several posts I had read about it: (links corrected)

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/593073.page#6788863
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/593073.page#6788929

The GW design studio is now two teams, one of them focussing on fluff material. Mr. Kelly is part of it

What's the source on the original claim?

The "I asked at Games Day" statements are about as credible as "My Dad works at Nintendo" if the source isn't verifiable and trust able.

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
I think the 18" move and grenade attack replaces skyleap.

Ok thanks, I suppose its too early yet to know for sure 100% but that makes sense.

An 18 inch move plus a possible 6 inch run and the 12 inch charge makes them quite a vehicle threat if they can still haywire grenade land vehicles.

No, no. My uncle works at Nintendo. My dad works at microsoft.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
No, no. My uncle works at Nintendo. My dad works at microsoft.

You poor person.
I can't think how interesting the Holidays must be for you

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
No, no. My uncle works at Nintendo. My dad works at microsoft.

You poor person.
I can't think how interesting the Holidays must be for you

It's a joke, but that would be interesting.

5 days for the new bikes

I cant wait, but I have an AI exam on the 28th so I need to revise not paint :(

I'll read through the codex Friday night and try to figure out how to configure my force. I'm very much Iyanden heavy (20 wraithguard of various types, 2 lords, 1 knight) and only have a few "Troops" in 10 Rangers. I guess I'll have to create a normal CAD and then add the wraith host detachment. I'm assuming Wave Serpents will still be upgrades for the Guard which will allow my scythes to be a little mobile (I only have 1 serpent). I could always do a Harlequin CAD and then add the wraith host to that (if legal). I don't think I want windriders as I have Harlie and DE jetbikes already. Maybe I'll do a Wych CAD and then add the wraith host. I just need to get the DE codex at some point (have some wyches, reavers and hellions)

I'd love some photographs of the unit entries. Seems like we had them by now for the Necrons. I'd like to put this whole: "Wait for the actual codex" and "I'll believe it when I see it" line of arguments to rest.

 docdoom77 wrote:
I'd love some photographs of the unit entries. Seems like we had them by now for the Necrons. I'd like to put this whole: "Wait for the actual codex" and "I'll believe it when I see it" line of arguments to rest.

They will suddenly merge into

"Wait you have not played it" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

then

"Well we just need time to adjust" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

to

"have to wait for the FAQs" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

then after a couple of years of this............

- "oh its nearly time for a new codex so we shouldn't change it" - especially whilst I keep wining games

That's what happened with Serpents - as the Cylons say - "its happened before and it will happen before"

 Mr Morden wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
I'd love some photographs of the unit entries. Seems like we had them by now for the Necrons. I'd like to put this whole: "Wait for the actual codex" and "I'll believe it when I see it" line of arguments to rest.

They will suddenly merge into

"Wait you have not played it" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

then

"Well we just need time to adjust" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

to

"have to wait for the FAQs" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

then after a couple of years of this............

- "oh its nearly time for a new codex so we shouldn't change it" - especially whilst I keep wining games

That's what happened with Serpents - as the Cylons say - "its happened before and it will happen before"

In my experience (not just with 40k but other games like Heavy Gear), the final line is more often "I really hope they change the wave serpents to something less overpowered". After years of denying anything needs to be done and that the problem is the player and not the product, the champions of *insert game company here* do a total 180 and start advocating change when the hints of a replacement book FOR SALE start coming out. Thei end goal, after all, is to be the biggest public supporter of the company and their CURRENT stance. When the new product is on the horizon, you gotta start stagging the old one to justify people buying the new one. YMMV.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
I'd love some photographs of the unit entries. Seems like we had them by now for the Necrons. I'd like to put this whole: "Wait for the actual codex" and "I'll believe it when I see it" line of arguments to rest.

They will suddenly merge into

"Wait you have not played it" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

then

"Well we just need time to adjust" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

to

"have to wait for the FAQs" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

then after a couple of years of this............

- "oh its nearly time for a new codex so we shouldn't change it" - especially whilst I keep wining games

That's what happened with Serpents - as the Cylons say - "its happened before and it will happen before"

You are correct of course. There are already people in my area who have shifted to "we need to adjust/L2P" arguments.

I'm not going to boycot the game or quit. My plan is to just build a darn Eldar Army for use at tourneys and against other Eldar players. Sigh.

Do we know if Hawks kept a haywire per squad member? Thought it would be limited to the Exarch the way Harli/DE were.

 Eldarain wrote:
Do we know if Hawks kept a haywire per squad member? Thought it would be limited to the Exarch the way Harli/DE were.

No word on that, but if they have that fly-by attack, it seems likely they're all equipped with them.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
I'd love some photographs of the unit entries. Seems like we had them by now for the Necrons. I'd like to put this whole: "Wait for the actual codex" and "I'll believe it when I see it" line of arguments to rest.

They will suddenly merge into

"Wait you have not played it" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

then

"Well we just need time to adjust" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

to

"have to wait for the FAQs" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

then after a couple of years of this............

- "oh its nearly time for a new codex so we shouldn't change it" - especially whilst I keep wining games

That's what happened with Serpents - as the Cylons say - "its happened before and it will happen before"

I dunno. This is clearly the new proposed power level of the game from GW. I play Necrons and, while I don't agree with everyone that the Decurion is destroyer in the game, the new Necron book was very obviously designed with a new tier of power in mind. 4+ Reanimates that can only be ignored by S: D, insane durability in most of the book having T5 and/or multiple wounds, and Formation bonuses that were straight up jaw-dropping when they came out. While Skitarii and Khorne Daemonkin weren't anything standoutish (other than Daemonkin being a straight up improvement to any fluffy Khorne Daemon/CSM allied lists), they're also not full army books. Heck, while DEldar and Harlies weren't on the level of Craftworld Eldar, they had some really nasty things in their pockets. I would not be surprised to see the next round of "big" Codices be on this level.

 docdoom77 wrote:


I'm not going to boycot the game or quit. My plan is to just build a darn Eldar Army for use at tourneys and against other Eldar players. Sigh.

Insert pic of Mr. Burns steepling his fingers and laughing. "Excellent."

GW wins and their business strategy is vindicated.

Requizen wrote:
[quote=Mr Morden 640806 7770061 3
I dunno. This is clearly the new proposed power level of the game from GW. I play Necrons and, while I don't agree with everyone that the Decurion is destroyer in the game, the new Necron book was very obviously designed with a new tier of power in mind. 4+ Reanimates that can only be ignored by S: D, insane durability in most of the book having T5 and/or multiple wounds, and Formation bonuses that were straight up jaw-dropping when they came out. While Skitarii and Khorne Daemonkin weren't anything standoutish (other than Daemonkin being a straight up improvement to any fluffy Khorne Daemon/CSM allied lists), they're also not full army books. Heck, while DEldar and Harlies weren't on the level of Craftworld Eldar, they had some really nasty things in their pockets. I would not be surprised to see the next round of "big" Codices be on this level.

At the start of 6th Dark Angels and Chaos was the new powerlevel, then we got Eldar and Tau and THAT was the new powerlevel, except it wasnt because the following books werent as good until we got to Necrons.

GW is incapable of keeping to any sort of plan for any length of time. I would be amazed if the next book (rumored to be GWs red headed stepchild, the DA) is half as powerful.

Chad Warden wrote:


At the start of 6th Dark Angels and Chaos was the new powerlevel, then we got Eldar and Tau and THAT was the new powerlevel, except it wasnt because the following books werent as good until we got to Necrons.

GW is incapable of keeping to any sort of plan for any length of time. I would be amazed if the next book (rumored to be GWs red headed stepchild, the DA) is half as powerful.

I like redheads :(

Dark Angels will forever be gimped, because GW wants people to upgrade from the starter box faction. Much like CSM

Requizen wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
I'd love some photographs of the unit entries. Seems like we had them by now for the Necrons. I'd like to put this whole: "Wait for the actual codex" and "I'll believe it when I see it" line of arguments to rest.

They will suddenly merge into

"Wait you have not played it" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

then

"Well we just need time to adjust" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

to

"have to wait for the FAQs" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

then after a couple of years of this............

- "oh its nearly time for a new codex so we shouldn't change it" - especially whilst I keep wining games

That's what happened with Serpents - as the Cylons say - "its happened before and it will happen before"

I dunno. This is clearly the new proposed power level of the game from GW. I play Necrons and, while I don't agree with everyone that the Decurion is destroyer in the game, the new Necron book was very obviously designed with a new tier of power in mind. 4+ Reanimates that can only be ignored by S: D, insane durability in most of the book having T5 and/or multiple wounds, and Formation bonuses that were straight up jaw-dropping when they came out. While Skitarii and Khorne Daemonkin weren't anything standoutish (other than Daemonkin being a straight up improvement to any fluffy Khorne Daemon/CSM allied lists), they're also not full army books. Heck, while DEldar and Harlies weren't on the level of Craftworld Eldar, they had some really nasty things in their pockets. I would not be surprised to see the next round of "big" Codices be on this level.

But so many codices have already been left in the dirt, that's why this is frustrating.

 Talys wrote:

Chad Warden wrote:


At the start of 6th Dark Angels and Chaos was the new powerlevel, then we got Eldar and Tau and THAT was the new powerlevel, except it wasnt because the following books werent as good until we got to Necrons.

GW is incapable of keeping to any sort of plan for any length of time. I would be amazed if the next book (rumored to be GWs red headed stepchild, the DA) is half as powerful.

I like redheads :(

Dark Angels will forever be gimped, because GW wants people to upgrade from the starter box faction. Much like CSM

See, that does actually make some sense, I could see them doing that... Would be more likely if DA hadn't always been crap though haha.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Colpicklejar wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
I'd love some photographs of the unit entries. Seems like we had them by now for the Necrons. I'd like to put this whole: "Wait for the actual codex" and "I'll believe it when I see it" line of arguments to rest.

They will suddenly merge into

"Wait you have not played it" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

then

"Well we just need time to adjust" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

to

"have to wait for the FAQs" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

then after a couple of years of this............

- "oh its nearly time for a new codex so we shouldn't change it" - especially whilst I keep wining games

That's what happened with Serpents - as the Cylons say - "its happened before and it will happen before"

I dunno. This is clearly the new proposed power level of the game from GW. I play Necrons and, while I don't agree with everyone that the Decurion is destroyer in the game, the new Necron book was very obviously designed with a new tier of power in mind. 4+ Reanimates that can only be ignored by S: D, insane durability in most of the book having T5 and/or multiple wounds, and Formation bonuses that were straight up jaw-dropping when they came out. While Skitarii and Khorne Daemonkin weren't anything standoutish (other than Daemonkin being a straight up improvement to any fluffy Khorne Daemon/CSM allied lists), they're also not full army books. Heck, while DEldar and Harlies weren't on the level of Craftworld Eldar, they had some really nasty things in their pockets. I would not be surprised to see the next round of "big" Codices be on this level.

But so many codices have already been left in the dirt, that's why this is frustrating.

Yeah. I mean it's all well and good having a power level, but changing it mid edition just makes no sense, as if screws armies you've just released books for.

 agnosto wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:


I'm not going to boycot the game or quit. My plan is to just build a darn Eldar Army for use at tourneys and against other Eldar players. Sigh.

Insert pic of Mr. Burns steepling his fingers and laughing. "Excellent."

GW wins and their business strategy is vindicated.

They're evil geniuses. No doubt about it.

Kind of wondering if we've heard anything about Wraithlords, be cool if you could take them in Squads of up to 3 like Talos.

 agnosto wrote:

You don't depend upon stomps, they're an additional attack that you can make at the end of combat that can kill off a couple more models or even a whole unit. It's nice but it's the previous rounds of shooting that softened the unit up followed by the hammer of wrath then the 4 or 5 assault attacks then the stomps. You see, nothing exists in a vacuum, it's all part of the bundle. Sure, if all it had were stomps, it would suck but there are all the other things that I just mentioned that mean a superheavy or gargantuan creature can deal some damage. Saying one part of their assault package is unreliable is a bit silly because it's just one part of the assault package, not the entire package.

That makes exactly zero sense. Stomp's unreliability is offset by the existence of HoW and conventional attacks; that does not alter the unreliability of Stomp.

I never said having Stomp made something unreliable, I sad Stomp was unreliable and you disagreed. When you charge a SHW or GC into combat you do your math based on what you're likely to get, and you don't just assume that you'll be able to massacre things en masse with lucky Stomp rolls.

I'm pleased that you've come around to my way of thinking though, since by admission that you don't depend on Stomps, you've admitted their unreliability.

 ImAGeek wrote:

Yeah. I mean it's all well and good having a power level, but changing it mid edition just makes no sense, as if screws armies you've just released books for.

GW have always done this though.

3rd edition. The advent of Chaos 3.5 indicated a shift in Codex power levels for the remainder of 3rd.

4th edition. Toward the end we saw Eldar, Dark Angels and Chaos which were all rather...unimpressive. We assumed that was the new power level. Toned down, less options, more straightforward. Then Orks and Daemons happened....and then with 5th the Space Marine codex basically became everything that was taken away from CSM.

5th edition. Ramped all the way up to Necrons for silly shenanigans.

Then 6th came and we saw Dark Angels and CSM...and were sad. We assumed this would be the new standard again. Then the Taudar Nation attacked.

Toward the end of 6th and 7th we again started to see things tone down. AM, Orks, Space Wolves, not too impressive. Some tricks but not meta-breaking. Every codex that got updated was 'meh'.

And now Eldar hit.

It's not a new pattern for GW to be squirrelly with their patterns. It's almost like they released a few, realised people weren't tripping over and buying out all their stock because the rules were WTF broken...and decided to fix that. Again.

Hollismason wrote:
Kind of wondering if we've heard anything about Wraithlords, be cool if you could take them in Squads of up to 3 like Talos.

It seems unlikely, given that the Wraith Host formation lists them as a single model, while every other thing you can buy as units in the War Host says units.

GW probably hasn't even changed their points, thus keeping them the red-headed stepchild of all Wraith units.

Hollismason wrote:
Kind of wondering if we've heard anything about Wraithlords, be cool if you could take them in Squads of up to 3 like Talos.

If I remember right they're exactly the same right down to the sword. The sword which gives wraithknights SD but wraithlords +1 S.....

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

Yeah. I mean it's all well and good having a power level, but changing it mid edition just makes no sense, as if screws armies you've just released books for.

GW have always done this though.

3rd edition. The advent of Chaos 3.5 indicated a shift in Codex power levels for the remainder of 3rd.

4th edition. Toward the end we saw Eldar, Dark Angels and Chaos which were all rather...unimpressive. We assumed that was the new power level. Toned down, less options, more straightforward. Then Orks and Daemons happened....and then with 5th the Space Marine codex basically became everything that was taken away from CSM.

5th edition. Ramped all the way up to Necrons for silly shenanigans.

Then 6th came and we saw Dark Angels and CSM...and were sad. We assumed this would be the new standard again. Then the Taudar Nation attacked.

Toward the end of 6th and 7th we again started to see things tone down. AM, Orks, Space Wolves, not too impressive. Some tricks but not meta-breaking. Every codex that got updated was 'meh'.

And now Eldar hit.

It's not a new pattern for GW to be squirrelly with their patterns. It's almost like they released a few, realised people weren't tripping over and buying out all their stock because the rules were WTF broken...and decided to fix that. Again.

'They've always done it' isn't an excuse.

 Raesvelg wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

You don't depend upon stomps, they're an additional attack that you can make at the end of combat that can kill off a couple more models or even a whole unit. It's nice but it's the previous rounds of shooting that softened the unit up followed by the hammer of wrath then the 4 or 5 assault attacks then the stomps. You see, nothing exists in a vacuum, it's all part of the bundle. Sure, if all it had were stomps, it would suck but there are all the other things that I just mentioned that mean a superheavy or gargantuan creature can deal some damage. Saying one part of their assault package is unreliable is a bit silly because it's just one part of the assault package, not the entire package.

That makes exactly zero sense. Stomp's unreliability is offset by the existence of HoW and conventional attacks; that does not alter the unreliability of Stomp.

I never said having Stomp made something unreliable, I sad Stomp was unreliable and you disagreed. When you charge a SHW or GC into combat you do your math based on what you're likely to get, and you don't just assume that you'll be able to massacre things en masse with lucky Stomp rolls.

I'm pleased that you've come around to my way of thinking though, since by admission that you don't depend on Stomps, you've admitted their unreliability.

Are you being obtuse or just missing the point? Stomps are not something that you should just take out of the complete assault picture because they don't happen in a vacuum. Nothing to my knowledge just has stomp attacks ergo, it's ridiculous to simply say that stomps are unreliable as they don't happen alone, singular, outside of the other things that occur as part of the entire assault phase.

You made my point for me in the second section of your post. By your reasoning, all attacks are unreliable because you have to roll to hit and then to wound and then you don't know if your opponent will make one of several saving options so you estimate what your damage will be. That's the nature of the game and when you're using a model with a stomp attack, you don't just look at the stomp and say, "gee, I better not assault because if I just get one stomp, I won't do hardly any damage", no, you're thinking, "Ok, I've got a shot at a wound with HoW, then my 5 attacks, then possibly 1-3 stomps afterwards." Notice, 1-3 stomps...at least one. So, in my example, I'm basically getting at least 2 auto-hits, one from the HoW and one from a stomp (possibly 2 more if I roll well). An average of 2 stomps per turn which gives me an average 2 in 12 chance for a 6. Those are not crappy odds from a freebie at the end of assault.

Anyway, think what you like. It's quite possible we're talking past each other here anyway. Cheers.

 RED EYE JEDI wrote:
5 days for the new bikes

I cant wait, but I have an AI exam on the 28th so I need to revise not paint :(

Just in time to hear "nah bro thats ok, I dont want to play a game right now" then 10 minutes later you see him playing against a space marine army.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


Wait, wait, wait. You played a game against a list you and everyone else have had 2 years to learn to overcome and adapt to. And because you can beat said list with Necrons it needs to be buffed?

No. No no no. That is terrible reasoning.

Hey guys, I played against this thing that I've learned how to beat over the last two years and beat it, therefore let's buff the ever living crap out of it.

Assuming you know this buddy and have known him for a while...odds are he uses a similar if not the same list for every game or so.
His codex doesn't need a buff. He needs to switch things up. That's sort of how a meta works, regardless of what it's in...

OK, they've learned how to beat X. Y looks interesting. Let's throw Y in and see if they can deal with that.

Well excuse me sir. I've played against his Eldar once before with my Crons, and it was in a 2v2. So no, I don't play his list very often. I also used some things I don't normally use (Wraiths, Destroyers, bunch of footslog infantry) And also, he was only using a single Wraithknight (with suncannon) and 2 Wave serpents. Otherwise he played Aspects, which is what he loves. My reasoning is that except for Wave Serpents being stupid and the Wraithknight being difficult for some armies to kill, Eldar don't have that much over anyone else currently. They're infantry are squishy and cost as much as Necron infantry most of the time, if not more. And a lot of people like to play like that. So, the Aspects getting cool new rules, and some buffs here and there isn't a bad thing. Plus, the Serpents got toned down.

Hell, he plays Footdar quite often. So, it getting a buff isn't a bad thing, as I'm sure a lot of other people would agree. Plus, let's take into consideration if he was using the new codex, the Wraithknight he was using would be the same, and if he was using the Wraithcannons, he wouldn't have an invuln, and then my wraiths would've eaten him up anyway. Then, lets say he barreled down the field in a Serpent with some Wraithguard. They would've disembarked and kill one unit, most likely, then would've died horribly, and not made their points back.

All I'm saying is, it's not the end of the world, and Eldar getting a buff in some areas isn't a bad thing. And the other things (Wraithguard, and other D weapons) isn't going to be much of a threat if you know how to play the game correctly.

 krodarklorr wrote:


Well excuse me sir. I've played against his Eldar once before with my Crons, and it was in a 2v2. So no, I don't play his list very often.

You're the one who used the term 'buddy'. Plus, if he's a 'buddy' I would assume you keep regular contact with him. You probably see other games he plays. You probably know what he fields. 'Buddy' implies that he's a friend and thus that you game with him on a fairly regular basis. You can learn his playstyle by watching, by knowing what he fields.

I also used some things I don't normally use (Wraiths, Destroyers, bunch of footslog infantry) And also, he was only using a single Wraithknight (with suncannon) and 2 Wave serpents. Otherwise he played Aspects, which is what he loves. My reasoning is that except for Wave Serpents being stupid and the Wraithknight being difficult for some armies to kill, Eldar don't have that much over anyone else currently. They're infantry are squishy and cost as much as Necron infantry most of the time, if not more. And a lot of people like to play like that. So, the Aspects getting cool new rules, and some buffs here and there isn't a bad thing. Plus, the Serpents got toned down.

So you did know what he was fielding. Aspects, which you claim he 'loves'. And you brought things you normally don't use which conveniently enough excel at slaughtering infantry wholesale (Wraiths, Destroyers....really?). If I was a Necron player, facing an Aspect heavy footdar list I too would bring Destroyers. S5, AP3 and 2 shots on a fast moving platform? Why, yes, thank you.

Yes, their infantry is squishy. No one here was saying 'Eldar infantry are a problem'. No one here was saying 'Eldar infantry broke the meta'. You even acknowledge the wave serpent being a problem...so you must be aware of what the conversation here is about, right? You're the first one I've seen bring in Eldar infantry.

But let's stick with that. Eldar infantry is lacklustre. Banshees are unimpressive. Are they so unimpressive that they need the rumoured cover ignoring, Overwatch immune, -2 Ld Fear test, Exarch capable of denying an enemy weapon buffs? Because god damn, if the issue of a S3 Power Weapon unit that has always been fragile is to make it capable of ignoring every threat to it for free then I really, really can't wait for Tyranids to be redone. Genestealers will be fething amazing if we keep with that logic. I for one look forward to my Genestealers to become 8 point models with a 24 inch assault range and SD, D6+6 attack melee capabilities. Hot damn.

Hell, he plays Footdar quite often. So, it getting a buff isn't a bad thing, as I'm sure a lot of other people would agree. Plus, let's take into consideration if he was using the new codex, the Wraithknight he was using would be the same, and if he was using the Wraithcannons, he wouldn't have an invuln, and then my wraiths would've eaten him up anyway. Then, lets say he barreled down the field in a Serpent with some Wraithguard. They would've disembarked and kill one unit, most likely, then would've died horribly, and not made their points back.

Your friend is an oddity. Your friend is not something that crops up in competitive or semi-competitive environments. The Wraithknight he was using would NOT be the same. Let's get this straight right now. It would gain FNP for free, only be affected by Poison on a 6, would have a 12 inch move as base and would have Stomp. D3 Stomps. And if one of those templates rolls a 6 on the chart? Pop goes the wraiths. No saves. A single unit of Wraithguard in a Serpent is not a problem. But the meta has never been about single units now, has it?

Look at the Meta lists. People field multiples of the same effective unit. It's the same as most card games. Sure, you could build a MtG deck that consists of one of everything. It'll fall down horribly. You could make it from the most broken and OP expansion set imaginable. It would still do poorly. But the top tier decks are the ones that spam multiples to increase their chances of combos. And that's what 40k is. Spam multiple of Unit X for profit.

Now, if these units were crap in the previous codex? Fair enough. GW cash grab. To be expected. But these units weren't crap. These units were already quite popular and utilised quite a bit. So no one is really having to go out of their way to get them. A lot of these units were staple in competitive lists in one edition or the other.

All I'm saying is, it's not the end of the world, and Eldar getting a buff in some areas isn't a bad thing. And the other things (Wraithguard, and other D weapons) isn't going to be much of a threat if you know how to play the game correctly.

Everyone take a shot. He finished on a 'L2P' statement.

I think less than a page back people pointed out the ridiculousness that the only defense for some of these buffs was 'Learn to Play'. Because clearly knowing how to play clearly makes all the difference when one ancient master is armed with a wooden sword and the other has a full nuclear arsenal. Of course.

Easy to tell someone it's all skill when the deck is now stacked in your favour.

Requizen wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
I'd love some photographs of the unit entries. Seems like we had them by now for the Necrons. I'd like to put this whole: "Wait for the actual codex" and "I'll believe it when I see it" line of arguments to rest.

They will suddenly merge into

"Wait you have not played it" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

then

"Well we just need time to adjust" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

to

"have to wait for the FAQs" especially whilst I keep wining games with ease

then after a couple of years of this............

- "oh its nearly time for a new codex so we shouldn't change it" - especially whilst I keep wining games

That's what happened with Serpents - as the Cylons say - "its happened before and it will happen before"

I dunno. This is clearly the new proposed power level of the game from GW. I play Necrons and, while I don't agree with everyone that the Decurion is destroyer in the game, the new Necron book was very obviously designed with a new tier of power in mind. 4+ Reanimates that can only be ignored by S: D, insane durability in most of the book having T5 and/or multiple wounds, and Formation bonuses that were straight up jaw-dropping when they came out. While Skitarii and Khorne Daemonkin weren't anything standoutish (other than Daemonkin being a straight up improvement to any fluffy Khorne Daemon/CSM allied lists), they're also not full army books. Heck, while DEldar and Harlies weren't on the level of Craftworld Eldar, they had some really nasty things in their pockets. I would not be surprised to see the next round of "big" Codices be on this level.

You put too much faith into the forward thinking of the design team. With 3 or 4 books per month coming out, they're turning these things around in 7 days or less. No time for playtesting at all. The relative power level is pretty much random nowadays.

I dont know if this has been posted already but I found some info about the Phoenix lords .

Asurmen (220)
4++ (3++ if fighting in a challenge). Gets 1D3 Warlord traits. Sword is +1S, AP2, Mastercrafterd. For each wound take a Ld test. If failed model dies.

Jain Zar (200)
When fighting in a challange, Jain Zar chooses a weapon of is opponent. He may not use this weapon. If done so, Jain Zar has -1A. Enemy models at +6″ get -5 to WS (Mínimum 1). Her sword is AP2, Shred.

Karandras (200)
When arriving from reserves can choose any border. His mandiblaster ignores ALL saves. Mandiblaster wounds on 2+/4+

Fuegan (220)
He gets +1S and +1A for each lost wound.

Baharroth (170)
When DS all units at 6″ are treated as hit by a weapon with the Blind SR.

Maugan Ra (195)
Can fire his Maugetar twice per turn (That means 8 S6 Rending shots). Maugetar has an alternative profile: Assault 1, S1, Poison 2+. If one model dies, put 5″ marker. All models under the template get a S5 AP4 hit.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Everyone take a shot. He finished on a 'L2P' statement.

I think less than a page back people pointed out the ridiculousness that the only defense for some of these buffs was 'Learn to Play'. Because clearly knowing how to play clearly makes all the difference when one ancient master is armed with a wooden sword and the other has a full nuclear arsenal. Of course.

Easy to tell someone it's all skill when the deck is now stacked in your favour.

Okay fine, my opinions are invalidated. Say what you will. In my meta, we have few Eldar players, and they're very respectable. If they wanna bring a strong list, we'll bring a similar list and have a fun game. If not, we'll adapt our lists as well. And I didn't know what he was bringing against me. He likes Footdar, yes, but he rarely uses Serpents. And he figured, since it is Newcrons, he should probably bring a few, and use his Wraithknight. I said bring it on. And with the new codex, the same list he just played wouldn't have gotten any better, at all. In fact his firepower would've decreased since the Serpent shield was fired quite a few times that game.

I'm not accusing people of "L2P". I'm just saying, think tactically, assess his current threats, focus what needs to be fired at first, and think of positioning of your units. This isn't new to anyone, but it's simple things like that in the face of a new "OP" codex that will help you out. It's tactics like that that has allowed my Nids (I use Warriors, Primes, gaunts, and other various MCS, I don't spam Lictors or Flyrants) to defeat Tau every time I've gone up against them, even though I should've lost.

So, don't mind me then. I'm simply saying Eldar will not dominate any more than they did, if anything, probably less. But we'll see in a few weeks.

 Capamaru wrote:
I dont know if this has been posted already but I found some info about the Phoenix lords .

Asurmen (220)
4++ (3++ if fighting in a challenge). Gets 1D3 Warlord traits. Sword is +1S, AP2, Mastercrafterd. For each wound take a Ld test. If failed model dies.

Jain Zar (200)
When fighting in a challange, Jain Zar chooses a weapon of is opponent. He may not use this weapon. If done so, Jain Zar has -1A. Enemy models at +6″ get -5 to WS (Mínimum 1). Her sword is AP2, Shred.

Karandras (200)
When arriving from reserves can choose any border. His mandiblaster ignores ALL saves. Mandiblaster wounds on 2+/4+

Fuegan (220)
He gets +1S and +1A for each lost wound.

Baharroth (170)
When DS all units at 6″ are treated as hit by a weapon with the Blind SR.

Maugan Ra (195)
Can fire his Maugetar twice per turn (That means 8 S6 Rending shots). Maugetar has an alternative profile: Assault 1, S1, Poison 2+. If one model dies, put 5″ marker. All models under the template get a S5 AP4 hit.

Thanks, can you tell us what ranged weapon Asurmen has? I think it changed slightly between 5th and 6th from two wristmounted to 1 but I could be wrong.

 agnosto wrote:

Are you being obtuse or just missing the point? Stomps are not something that you should just take out of the complete assault picture because they don't happen in a vacuum. Nothing to my knowledge just has stomp attacks ergo, it's ridiculous to simply say that stomps are unreliable as they don't happen alone, singular, outside of the other things that occur as part of the entire assault phase.

You made my point for me in the second section of your post. By your reasoning, all attacks are unreliable because you have to roll to hit and then to wound and then you don't know if your opponent will make one of several saving options so you estimate what your damage will be. That's the nature of the game and when you're using a model with a stomp attack, you don't just look at the stomp and say, "gee, I better not assault because if I just get one stomp, I won't do hardly any damage", no, you're thinking, "Ok, I've got a shot at a wound with HoW, then my 5 attacks, then possibly 1-3 stomps afterwards." Notice, 1-3 stomps...at least one. So, in my example, I'm basically getting at least 2 auto-hits, one from the HoW and one from a stomp (possibly 2 more if I roll well). An average of 2 stomps per turn which gives me an average 2 in 12 chance for a 6. Those are not crappy odds from a freebie at the end of assault.

Anyway, think what you like. It's quite possible we're talking past each other here anyway. Cheers.

Indeed, it's possible we're talking past each other, though I'd posit that your original post indicates that you knew exactly my point: that you can't rely on getting the 6 on the Stomp chart. You can rely on getting a couple S6 AP4 templates, and that's what I'd figure as the average on any SHW/GC charge: I get my HoW, my attacks +1, and at the end of combat (and pile-in moves) I can expect a specific number of Stomp hits at S6 AP4 (which will probably not be incredibly damaging to things that can ignore its AP).

If I'm gonna charge an IK at a unit of Terminators, for example, I'll figure I probably won't kill one with HoW, I'll kill one or two with regular attacks, and then its down to Stomps. And I can't rely on that 6 wiping them out; I can expect maybe one Termie to die to Stomp a turn, depending on how many there are under the template, etc. In subsequent rounds, I can expect to kill about one or two Terminators a turn consistently.

If they've got Powerfists, I'm probably safe. If they've got Chainfists, the 3-4 that survive my initial charge will be hitting me... 3-4 times, and I can expect to lose 2-3 Hull Points as a result. If I eyeball the math real quick before I make that charge, I can figure out that if I don't get lucky with Stomps, there's a fair chance that I'll either get destroyed in that combat, or that I'll stagger out with only 1-2 HP remaining. And I can't count on getting lucky with Stomps, because they're unreliable vs high durability models like Terminators.

Similarly, if I were to charge an IK at, say, a Bloothirster of Insensate Rage figuring I would be able to kill it with my D weapon, I'd be an idiot. Between my 5+ to hit it, and its 5 wounds and 5++ save, it will very probably survive that first set of swings on my part, because even with my D weapon, the odds are very much against me rolling that 6. At which point its WS10 vs my WS4, and its D weapon, will almost certainly carve me apart in short order, because with its 3+ to hit and 6 attacks, plus the difference between MCs and Vehicles, it's pretty much guaranteed to take 6 HP off me without needing that 6 on the D weapon table. Now, I Might be able to pick up the spare with Stomps, but again, the odds are against me.

Incidentally, just to keep this vaguely on topic, the odds of a WK w/ D Sword vs BoIR are not much different in HtH. If you don't soften it up some with shooting, you're basically gambling on that 6, and that's not usually a good gamble when you're only hitting on 5+.

Stomp isn't a freebie. It's (in theory at least, this is GW we're talking about) calculated into the points of the model. Unless you're a Wraithknight, apparently.

 Skerr wrote:

 Capamaru wrote:
I dont know if this has been posted already but I found some info about the Phoenix lords .

Asurmen (220)
4++ (3++ if fighting in a challenge). Gets 1D3 Warlord traits. Sword is +1S, AP2, Mastercrafterd. For each wound take a Ld test. If failed model dies.

Jain Zar (200)
When fighting in a challange, Jain Zar chooses a weapon of is opponent. He may not use this weapon. If done so, Jain Zar has -1A. Enemy models at +6″ get -5 to WS (Mínimum 1). Her sword is AP2, Shred.

Karandras (200)
When arriving from reserves can choose any border. His mandiblaster ignores ALL saves. Mandiblaster wounds on 2+/4+

Fuegan (220)
He gets +1S and +1A for each lost wound.

Baharroth (170)
When DS all units at 6″ are treated as hit by a weapon with the Blind SR.

Maugan Ra (195)
Can fire his Maugetar twice per turn (That means 8 S6 Rending shots). Maugetar has an alternative profile: Assault 1, S1, Poison 2+. If one model dies, put 5″ marker. All models under the template get a S5 AP4 hit.

Thanks, can you tell us what ranged weapon Asurmen has? I think it changed slightly between 5th and 6th from two wristmounted to 1 but I could be wrong.

I dont know the answer to that but all these abilities are on top of a normals exarch's abilities so I guess Karandras is really scary in CC.

 Skerr wrote:

Thanks, can you tell us what ranged weapon Asurmen has? I think it changed slightly between 5th and 6th from two wristmounted to 1 but I could be wrong.

No, you're right. In the 4th ed book, his gun was Assault 4; in the 6th ed book they changed it to Assault 2 Twin-Linked, because you really need to reroll to hit when you're already rerolling a 2+/5+.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Everyone take a shot. He finished on a 'L2P' statement.

I think less than a page back people pointed out the ridiculousness that the only defense for some of these buffs was 'Learn to Play'. Because clearly knowing how to play clearly makes all the difference when one ancient master is armed with a wooden sword and the other has a full nuclear arsenal. Of course.

Easy to tell someone it's all skill when the deck is now stacked in your favour.

Okay fine, my opinions are invalidated. Say what you will. In my meta, we have few Eldar players, and they're very respectable. If they wanna bring a strong list, we'll bring a similar list and have a fun game. If not, we'll adapt our lists as well. And I didn't know what he was bringing against me. He likes Footdar, yes, but he rarely uses Serpents. And he figured, since it is Newcrons, he should probably bring a few, and use his Wraithknight. I said bring it on. And with the new codex, the same list he just played wouldn't have gotten any better, at all. In fact his firepower would've decreased since the Serpent shield was fired quite a few times that game.

I'm not accusing people of "L2P". I'm just saying, think tactically, assess his current threats, focus what needs to be fired at first, and think of positioning of your units. This isn't new to anyone, but it's simple things like that in the face of a new "OP" codex that will help you out. It's tactics like that that has allowed my Nids (I use Warriors, Primes, gaunts, and other various MCS, I don't spam Lictors or Flyrants) to defeat Tau every time I've gone up against them, even though I should've lost.

So, don't mind me then. I'm simply saying Eldar will not dominate any more than they did, if anything, probably less. But we'll see in a few weeks.

You are correct. Most of the old elder aspects and stuff could of used some help. And it sounded like your buddy wasn't spamming serpents or bikes or wraith Knights. The good news is most everything elder had got buffed including a lot of things that could use a slight bump. You really only needed to worry about serpent spam until recently and elder were still a top placing army. The bad news is Knights recieved a massive boost in durability and firepower and it doesn't match the cost. Serpent spam fire power was basically given to jet bikes for cheaper and more plentiful. And. Few random str d shenanigans. The nerfed str d defy the stuff isn't going to be much an issue its still just a str 10 ap2 gun with a multi wound and 33% chance to do nothing with the added benefit of ignoring fnp/reanimate. So unless you friend spams knight and bikes your going to be fine. For most people we now just need to figure out how to handle mass str 6 on a durable platform and insane mobility.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Well at least a Necron player came in to prove the point, this new Eldar stuff is just 'nice to have' but it's not OMG the world is falling apart! Waah! Waah! that people have been going on about recently.

Talys I've been playing since 2000, my experience is always going to be

1. If it's a Necron it's going to kill whatever I have with no problem and get right back up every time I knock them down.

2. If it's a +3 save it will probably be made.

3. If it's a +2 my opponent will always make it...and I won't.

4. Plasma will blow up right at the worst possible moment.


As far as Darkstar's comments.

No I don't NEED it but it's certainly nice to have. There is though pesky Scions/Stormtroopers that make having a better AP weapon preferable. Nids have their big fellas and a scatter laser 'might' tickle them after awhile. Orks...eh...but they've need a buff anyways. (Choppas should reduce ALL saves to +4 dang it!!!!)

As far as hull points, sure against AV11 or otherwise light armored stuff. But in that case if I'm playing Eldar I'm putting bright lances and fire dragons to task on armor.

All this being said...temptation to get back into Eldar is rising. And I've always wanted to do either an Alitoc or Saim-Han army.

I'm not sure why you are making this post. If what you are saying is that "I think I have bad luck and I tend to lose games alot against luckier players" than why is that not what you posted? The anecdotal nature of your argument is really not relevant to the rumors about the new codex...

People are going to cry about the new big unit - it's just the nature of the game. New things come out and people hate them if they aren't in their army, and they love them if they are. Not much more to say about it. Most of the other changes in the books seem pretty nice. Banshees being immune to overwatch when charging isn't game-breaking, but helps put the models back on the map since they pretty much fell out of use in 6e. The same will hopefully be true of other units in the codex - time will tell.

Regardless - stating that the changes are in any way better or worse because you have a bad track record against Necrons is just irrelevant. I've never once lost to a necron player. Ever - with any of my three armies. See how this anecdotal stuff works.

I for one look forward to the changes - and I say this as a player who doesn't own a WK (or any super-heavy unit) and probably never will.

gungo wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Everyone take a shot. He finished on a 'L2P' statement.

I think less than a page back people pointed out the ridiculousness that the only defense for some of these buffs was 'Learn to Play'. Because clearly knowing how to play clearly makes all the difference when one ancient master is armed with a wooden sword and the other has a full nuclear arsenal. Of course.

Easy to tell someone it's all skill when the deck is now stacked in your favour.

Okay fine, my opinions are invalidated. Say what you will. In my meta, we have few Eldar players, and they're very respectable. If they wanna bring a strong list, we'll bring a similar list and have a fun game. If not, we'll adapt our lists as well. And I didn't know what he was bringing against me. He likes Footdar, yes, but he rarely uses Serpents. And he figured, since it is Newcrons, he should probably bring a few, and use his Wraithknight. I said bring it on. And with the new codex, the same list he just played wouldn't have gotten any better, at all. In fact his firepower would've decreased since the Serpent shield was fired quite a few times that game.

I'm not accusing people of "L2P". I'm just saying, think tactically, assess his current threats, focus what needs to be fired at first, and think of positioning of your units. This isn't new to anyone, but it's simple things like that in the face of a new "OP" codex that will help you out. It's tactics like that that has allowed my Nids (I use Warriors, Primes, gaunts, and other various MCS, I don't spam Lictors or Flyrants) to defeat Tau every time I've gone up against them, even though I should've lost.

So, don't mind me then. I'm simply saying Eldar will not dominate any more than they did, if anything, probably less. But we'll see in a few weeks.

You are correct. Most of the old elder aspects and stuff could of used some help. And it sounded like your buddy wasn't spamming serpents or bikes or wraith Knights. The good news is most everything elder had got buffed including a lot of things that could use a slight bump. You really only needed to worry about serpent spam until recently and elder were still a top placing army. The bad news is Knights recieved a massive boost in durability and firepower and it doesn't match the cost. Serpent spam fire power was basically given to jet bikes for cheaper and more plentiful. And. Few random str d shenanigans. The nerfed str d defy the stuff isn't going to be much an issue its still just a str 10 ap2 gun with a multi wound and 33% chance to do nothing with the added benefit of ignoring fnp/reanimate. So unless you friend spams knight and bikes your going to be fine. For most people we now just need to figure out how to handle mass str 6 on a durable platform and insane mobility.

Well, to be completely honest, I would love someone in my meta to spam bikes. I would love it. 270 points for 10 models, and they can't touch my vehicles? I'll drop a monolith on them, have guys come out, and shoot up the bikes. Then, Wraithguard will taste my Particle Whip. Yeah, I just went there. Using one of the worst units in my codex to counter their cheese. And the Wraithknights? Yes, they are waaaaay undercosted. But, if they have Strength D, they have no invuln, and their firepower isn't ridiculous. They could probably go 3-4 turns only killing a few rhinos at best. Or maaaaybe a land raider. And if they have the other loadouts, well, one need to be in CC, in which case is vulnerable to shooting, and the other one is the same as it is. And, since Serpent spam is no longer a thing, people have to invest points into other options for anti-tank and the like. So yeah, that's all I'm saying.

But, if they have Strength D, they have no invuln, and their firepower isn't ridiculous.

They do have FNP from GC though.

 greggles wrote:

But, if they have Strength D, they have no invuln, and their firepower isn't ridiculous.

They do have FNP from GC though.

This is true. But that's not going to help all that much.

Still no word on rangers? Can guarantee that they won't have been buffed even though they should have been while everything else got nerfed. In a perfect world.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 greggles wrote:

But, if they have Strength D, they have no invuln, and their firepower isn't ridiculous.

They do have FNP from GC though.

This is true. But that's not going to help all that much.

A 50% increase in durability against something like 90% of the weapons out there isn't going to help that much?

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
Still no word on rangers? Can guarantee that they won't have been buffed even though they should have been while everything else got nerfed. In a perfect world.

I think they have Shrouded instead of just Stealth?

 SilverDevilfish wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 greggles wrote:

But, if they have Strength D, they have no invuln, and their firepower isn't ridiculous.

They do have FNP from GC though.

This is true. But that's not going to help all that much.

A 50% increase in durability against something like 90% of the weapons out there isn't going to help that much?

Where are you getting a 50% increase? If they only have the Wraithcannons, they have 33% chance to ignore an incoming wound. Thats it.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 SilverDevilfish wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 greggles wrote:

But, if they have Strength D, they have no invuln, and their firepower isn't ridiculous.

They do have FNP from GC though.

This is true. But that's not going to help all that much.

A 50% increase in durability against something like 90% of the weapons out there isn't going to help that much?

Where are you getting a 50% increase? If they only have the Wraithcannons, they have 33% chance to ignore an incoming wound. Thats it.

That's not exactly bad though.

 ImAGeek wrote:


'They've always done it' isn't an excuse.

Who's more the fool: the Fool or the fool that follows him?

This game has been this way for 28 years. It's not going to change. If you don't like the way things are done, stop wasting your time with it.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:


'They've always done it' isn't an excuse.

Who's more the fool: the Fool or the fool that follows him?

This game has been this way for 28 years. It's not going to change. If you don't like the way things are done, stop wasting your time with it.

I have.

 ImAGeek wrote:


That's not exactly bad though.

Not at all, as a Necron player I can say that a 5+++ is not bad at all. It's not "omg it'll never die, erhg mah gerd" though.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 SilverDevilfish wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 greggles wrote:

But, if they have Strength D, they have no invuln, and their firepower isn't ridiculous.

They do have FNP from GC though.

This is true. But that's not going to help all that much.

A 50% increase in durability against something like 90% of the weapons out there isn't going to help that much?

Where are you getting a 50% increase? If they only have the Wraithcannons, they have 33% chance to ignore an incoming wound. Thats it.

A 33% chance to ignore a wound is an overall 50% increase in durability.

9 x 2/3 (5+ FNP = 2/3 chance to wound) = 6

9/6 = 1.5 aka 50% increase.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:


'They've always done it' isn't an excuse.

Who's more the fool: the Fool or the fool that follows him?

This game has been this way for 28 years. It's not going to change. If you don't like the way things are done, stop wasting your time with it.

I have.

If that is the case then stop arguing in a forum about a game you don't play....maybe...

In the hopes of calming down all the stomp fears on the WK just remember you have as much of a chance as doing nothing as you do at getting a six. I have run an IK list and can tell you that stomp is typically underwhelming but when you do roll that six everyone remembers it heh.

Its not stomp I worry about its giving a relatively cheap hard to kill model even more protection and FNP.

Just blows my mind. At least its not as easy to spam LoW.

Stomp worries the hell out of me. Do you have any idea what it does to Orks? All bunched up from the assault. Kills the heck out of them.

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
Still no word on rangers? Can guarantee that they won't have been buffed even though they should have been while everything else got nerfed. In a perfect world.

I think they have Shrouded now instead of stealth if I'm not mistaken. Same points.

I haven't heard a peep regarding Yriel though.

Games Workshop wrote:Crossing the galaxy on their vast world-ships, lead by the most powerful psykers in the universe, they rage hard against the dying of the light. Under the leadership of Farseers, psychics capable of planning thousands of years into the future with patience and confidence unmatched by any race, the Eldar wish to see their empire burn brightly once more, illuminated by the glory of total war, before fate consigns them to dark oblivion.

Wait what.

Games Workshop wrote:they rage hard

 Manchu wrote:

Games Workshop wrote:Crossing the galaxy on their vast world-ships, lead by the most powerful psykers in the universe, they rage hard against the dying of the light. Under the leadership of Farseers, psychics capable of planning thousands of years into the future with patience and confidence unmatched by any race, the Eldar wish to see their empire burn brightly once more, illuminated by the glory of total war, before fate consigns them to dark oblivion.

Wait what.

Games Workshop wrote:they rage hard

Not a fan of Dylan Thomas?

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rage at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

I just like the idea of Eldar patiently raging hard according to their thousand-year plans.

 Manchu wrote:
I just like the idea of Eldar patiently raging hard according to their thousand-year plans.

Nice.

"According to the planner, today is scheduled for patience and rage. Please remember to engage fully in these activities, in order to bring our Farseer's vision to fruition."

"Farseer, someone turned off a light."

"That makes me... angry."

Farseer's ATTACK rose.

"What are you doing 3000 years from now?"

"Raging hard."

:: patiently-executed high five ::

 Manchu wrote:
"What are you doing 3000 years from now?"

"Raging hard."

:: patiently-executed high five ::

I wonder if the infinity circuit is like an online forum after a new codex hits... food for though.

They already have the WORLD WIDE WEBWAY.

Relapse wrote:

Your 100 BS4 poison shots would do 2.5 wounds.

BS 4 = 66% to Hit
Wound on 6 = 16% to Wound
3+ Armor = 33% to Penetrate Armor

100 x .66 x .16 x. 33 = 3.48

 adamsouza wrote:

Relapse wrote:

Your 100 BS4 poison shots would do 2.5 wounds.

BS 4 = 66% to Hit
Wound on 6 = 16% to Wound
3+ Armor = 33% to Penetrate Armor

100 x .66 x .16 x. 33 = 3.48

You left out feel no pain.

 SilverDevilfish wrote:


A 33% chance to ignore a wound is an overall 50% increase in durability.

9 x 2/3 (5+ FNP = 2/3 chance to wound) = 6

9/6 = 1.5 aka 50% increase.

Oh, bleh mathhammer.

 docdoom77 wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

Relapse wrote:

Your 100 BS4 poison shots would do 2.5 wounds.

BS 4 = 66% to Hit
Wound on 6 = 16% to Wound
3+ Armor = 33% to Penetrate Armor

100 x .66 x .16 x. 33 = 3.48

You left out feel no pain.

It wasn't mentioned in what I read. I knew the math just looked off to me.

100 x .66 x .16 x .33 x .66 = 2.3

I didn't think they had access to FNP ?

Gargantuan Creatures have FNP as a bonus.

What about The Avatar, any news on him (it)? I heard LOW, but other than that, no changes.

I heard he gives out Furious Charge and Rage, in addition to Fearless within his 12" bubble. He is also +2 Str in Close Combat, but no longer can buy the exarch upgrades (as they were removed from the codex).

Nocturnus wrote:
What about The Avatar, any news on him (it)? I heard LOW, but other than that, no changes.

If you've got one of those massive FW avatars instead of the tiny metal/finecast ones, you're much better off using him as a counts as wraithknight.

That's a great counts as for the sword/shield knight.

rollawaythestone wrote:
I heard he gives out Furious Charge and Rage, in addition to Fearless within his 12" bubble. He is also +2 Str in Close Combat, but no longer can buy the exarch upgrades (as they were removed from the codex).

Holy crap! Wow, thanks for the quick response! Still AP1 I guess?

 pretre wrote:
That's a great counts as for the sword/shield knight.

Size-wise, it's not a great fit as shown in the pic below (not my pic) as the FW avatar is halfway between a WL and WK. Better to ask but it certainly beats using such a bad LOW when you have a giant undercosted wheel of cheese in the WK available for the same slot.

Can't do finally make a new Avatar model, kinda in the style like how they turned Nagash into one of the most bad ass models out there?

Darn. I was hoping it was closer. That's not a good one.

If the avatar got that kind of buff, I'm totally going to continue running him! I have a threat overload melee eldar army list, and the idea of str5 striking scorpions and str4 storm guardians makes me a happy camper!

How can they come up with these awesome little perks, and then ruin the codex with the next keystroke. :/

 pretre wrote:
Darn. I was hoping it was closer. That's not a good one.

Yeah, it's smack dab in the middle. It's too big to use as a wraithlord or frankly an avatar (compared with the stats it's supposed to have and size of the metal GW one).. and too small to use as a WK without asking.

 krodarklorr wrote:

gungo wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Everyone take a shot. He finished on a 'L2P' statement.

I think less than a page back people pointed out the ridiculousness that the only defense for some of these buffs was 'Learn to Play'. Because clearly knowing how to play clearly makes all the difference when one ancient master is armed with a wooden sword and the other has a full nuclear arsenal. Of course.

Easy to tell someone it's all skill when the deck is now stacked in your favour.

Okay fine, my opinions are invalidated. Say what you will. In my meta, we have few Eldar players, and they're very respectable. If they wanna bring a strong list, we'll bring a similar list and have a fun game. If not, we'll adapt our lists as well. And I didn't know what he was bringing against me. He likes Footdar, yes, but he rarely uses Serpents. And he figured, since it is Newcrons, he should probably bring a few, and use his Wraithknight. I said bring it on. And with the new codex, the same list he just played wouldn't have gotten any better, at all. In fact his firepower would've decreased since the Serpent shield was fired quite a few times that game.

I'm not accusing people of "L2P". I'm just saying, think tactically, assess his current threats, focus what needs to be fired at first, and think of positioning of your units. This isn't new to anyone, but it's simple things like that in the face of a new "OP" codex that will help you out. It's tactics like that that has allowed my Nids (I use Warriors, Primes, gaunts, and other various MCS, I don't spam Lictors or Flyrants) to defeat Tau every time I've gone up against them, even though I should've lost.

So, don't mind me then. I'm simply saying Eldar will not dominate any more than they did, if anything, probably less. But we'll see in a few weeks.

You are correct. Most of the old elder aspects and stuff could of used some help. And it sounded like your buddy wasn't spamming serpents or bikes or wraith Knights. The good news is most everything elder had got buffed including a lot of things that could use a slight bump. You really only needed to worry about serpent spam until recently and elder were still a top placing army. The bad news is Knights recieved a massive boost in durability and firepower and it doesn't match the cost. Serpent spam fire power was basically given to jet bikes for cheaper and more plentiful. And. Few random str d shenanigans. The nerfed str d defy the stuff isn't going to be much an issue its still just a str 10 ap2 gun with a multi wound and 33% chance to do nothing with the added benefit of ignoring fnp/reanimate. So unless you friend spams knight and bikes your going to be fine. For most people we now just need to figure out how to handle mass str 6 on a durable platform and insane mobility.

Well, to be completely honest, I would love someone in my meta to spam bikes. I would love it. 270 points for 10 models, and they can't touch my vehicles? I'll drop a monolith on them, have guys come out, and shoot up the bikes. Then, Wraithguard will taste my Particle Whip. Yeah, I just went there. Using one of the worst units in my codex to counter their cheese. And the Wraithknights? Yes, they are waaaaay undercosted. But, if they have Strength D, they have no invuln, and their firepower isn't ridiculous. They could probably go 3-4 turns only killing a few rhinos at best. Or maaaaybe a land raider. And if they have the other loadouts, well, one need to be in CC, in which case is vulnerable to shooting, and the other one is the same as it is. And, since Serpent spam is no longer a thing, people have to invest points into other options for anti-tank and the like. So yeah, that's all I'm saying.

If your going to through anecdotal opinions at least stick with one army instead of trying to downplay the changes. If you drop a monolith by 10 bikes then this wraithknight will blow it up with 2 range str d weapons with rerolls to hit. There is absolutely no reason why it would shoot at a couple of rhinos. Then you fire your scatter laser at a different target and charge them for extra lols. However none of this matter because I don't expect range double d wraith knights to be legal at any tourney or most local clubs.
Seriously str 6 can't touch your vehicles? I didn't realize every necron vehicle had rear armour 13+. And all your infantry was immune to 40x str 6. I dont know why your arguing this everyone knows the wraitknight was undercosted and so are skimmers as well as being the only troops in game able to run around with relentless heavy weapons for all.

gungo wrote:

If your going to through anecdotal opinions at least stick with one army instead of trying to downplay the changes. If you drop a monolith by 10 bikes then this wraithknight will blow it up with 2 range str d weapons with rerolls to hit. There is absolutely no reason why it would shoot at a couple of rhinos. Then you fire your scatter laser at a different target and charge them for extra lols. However none of this matter because I don't expect range double d wraith knights to be legal at any tourney or most local clubs.
Seriously str 6 can't touch your vehicles? I didn't realize every necron vehicle had rear armour 13+. And all your infantry was immune to 40x str 6. I dont know why your arguing this everyone knows the wraitknight was undercosted and so are skimmers as well as being the only troops in game able to run around with relentless heavy weapons for all.

Calm down dude. Necron vehicles don't have rear armor 13, obviously. The only way they get into rear armor would be to turbo boost behind it, forsaking their shooting, and then getting lit up by infantry. Wraithknights have counters. They'll die more or less as easy as before, at least for most armies. Plus, I'd like to see who in their right mind would spam Wraithknights now. Thats easily 600-900 points, not including mounted gun options, and their firepower, even being Strength D, isn't the most phenomenal. Plus, if they have strength D, they're defenses are lacking (Only having a 3+/5+++ FNP).

Regardless, I'm not trying to defend Eldar. This book didn't need a lot of the buffs it got. However, in a casual setting, it's not going to make too much of a big deal. In a competitive setting, I'd like to wait and see how they do before judging, but I doubt they'll be doing much better than they are now.

 Raesvelg wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

Are you being obtuse or just missing the point? Stomps are not something that you should just take out of the complete assault picture because they don't happen in a vacuum. Nothing to my knowledge just has stomp attacks ergo, it's ridiculous to simply say that stomps are unreliable as they don't happen alone, singular, outside of the other things that occur as part of the entire assault phase.

You made my point for me in the second section of your post. By your reasoning, all attacks are unreliable because you have to roll to hit and then to wound and then you don't know if your opponent will make one of several saving options so you estimate what your damage will be. That's the nature of the game and when you're using a model with a stomp attack, you don't just look at the stomp and say, "gee, I better not assault because if I just get one stomp, I won't do hardly any damage", no, you're thinking, "Ok, I've got a shot at a wound with HoW, then my 5 attacks, then possibly 1-3 stomps afterwards." Notice, 1-3 stomps...at least one. So, in my example, I'm basically getting at least 2 auto-hits, one from the HoW and one from a stomp (possibly 2 more if I roll well). An average of 2 stomps per turn which gives me an average 2 in 12 chance for a 6. Those are not crappy odds from a freebie at the end of assault.

Anyway, think what you like. It's quite possible we're talking past each other here anyway. Cheers.

Indeed, it's possible we're talking past each other, though I'd posit that your original post indicates that you knew exactly my point: that you can't rely on getting the 6 on the Stomp chart. You can rely on getting a couple S6 AP4 templates, and that's what I'd figure as the average on any SHW/GC charge: I get my HoW, my attacks +1, and at the end of combat (and pile-in moves) I can expect a specific number of Stomp hits at S6 AP4 (which will probably not be incredibly damaging to things that can ignore its AP).

If I'm gonna charge an IK at a unit of Terminators, for example, I'll figure I probably won't kill one with HoW, I'll kill one or two with regular attacks, and then its down to Stomps. And I can't rely on that 6 wiping them out; I can expect maybe one Termie to die to Stomp a turn, depending on how many there are under the template, etc. In subsequent rounds, I can expect to kill about one or two Terminators a turn consistently.

If they've got Powerfists, I'm probably safe. If they've got Chainfists, the 3-4 that survive my initial charge will be hitting me... 3-4 times, and I can expect to lose 2-3 Hull Points as a result. If I eyeball the math real quick before I make that charge, I can figure out that if I don't get lucky with Stomps, there's a fair chance that I'll either get destroyed in that combat, or that I'll stagger out with only 1-2 HP remaining. And I can't count on getting lucky with Stomps, because they're unreliable vs high durability models like Terminators.

LOL WUT

 Kimchi Gamer wrote:

LOL WUT

Stomps are unreliable because they are only D3 small blasts (I do not know why everyone thinks you automatically get 3 of them?). For each blast, you roll and on a 1 that blast does nothing, 2-5 it is str6 AP4. This means that even Marines may go unharmed.

It is only on a 6 that a stomp blast removes models under it. While this is clearly very powerful, it take a bit to get there. Stomps are best to help the SuperHeavy Walker or Gargantuan Creature prevent chaff units from tarpitting them.

I think he was laughing at the comment that terminators were high durability lol

Terminators are not durable, they haven't been since 2nd Ed.

They need to have 2W's and FnP stock IMO, then they'd at least be a durable despite still being slower then all feth with garbage shooting.

Phase two would require fixing bolter weapons....

 Galef wrote:

 Kimchi Gamer wrote:

LOL WUT

Stomps are unreliable because they are only D3 small blasts (I do not know why everyone thinks you automatically get 3 of them?). For each blast, you roll and on a 1 that blast does nothing, 2-5 it is str6 AP4. This means that even Marines may go unharmed.

It is only on a 6 that a stomp blast removes models under it. While this is clearly very powerful, it take a bit to get there. Stomps are best to help the SuperHeavy Walker or Gargantuan Creature prevent chaff units from tarpitting them.

Stomps have a 30% chance to get at least 1 6 result per combat phase. Considering a small blast will cover at LEAST 3 models in combat (probably closer to 6) and it better than instant-deaths anything other than other GMC's/SH's, and it can touch be placed on units that are up to 15" away from the combat, they're actually a damn reliable and deadly attack. Another 6-12 S6 AP4 hits with super-isntant-death on 6's with with every combat round is very respectable, better than many dedicated combat units can actually put out from attacks.

Since when has 30% chance been reliable?????

I wont argue that when it happens it isn't nasty, and that the possibility of it happening should always be considered, but basing a tactically decision on a 30% chance is far from reliable.

The 15" away from combat bit is pretty ridiculous though. Clearly an oversight on GWs part. It should have been all blasts are place in base with the models Stomping

A few OT bickering posts have been deleted. Last warning, folks; if you can't discuss the topic, you don't need to post in the thread.

And to be very clear, telling someone that they stop playing and/or posting is NOT on-topic.

Do Shining Spears still have Hit and Run?

They didn't have hit and run, it was an exarch power.

In practice i find stomp dangerous. So i see to it that what faces the titan has a chance to win or is expendable.
In the case of the imperial knight the explosion is worse though, because it automatically takes down the units that are good enough to take the imperial knight down.

I did not read anywhere that the Wraithknight explodes as well, so i am less worried.

One question though: i read about poison on 6+. Does poison only work on 6+ against Is a gargantuam creature?

That would mean that Dark Eldar have a problem here unless they pack as many heavy and special weapons (S8) as possible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The biggest problem of the wraithknight and wraithlord is that T8, so most basic weapons (S3 and S4) doe nothing.

But Necron and Poisoned weapons have a chance, that's better than nothing.
A C'Tan is a bit weak, or rather very weak, in comparison to a wraithknight though. But a C'Tan is not that good anyway, so no news there.

ORicK wrote:
In practice i find stomp dangerous. So i see to it that what faces the titan has a chance to win or is expendable.
In the case of the imperial knight the explosion is worse though, because it automatically takes down the units that are good enough to take the imperial knight down.

I did not read anywhere that the Wraithknight explodes as well, so i am less worried.

One question though: i read about poison on 6+. Does poison only work on 6+ against Is a gargantuam creature?

It's 6+ unless the strength is high enough to force a lower roll. So if you're lucky enough to have a S10 poison weapon versus T8, you still get 2+ (plus a re-roll if you're in melee). The only option I can think of for this is a Carnifex with Toxin Sacs.

@xttz: thanks!

So that means i that S8 weapons will be even more important and that poison does not solve monster problem anymore. Which is not a bad thing IMO, it had become a bit too easy against some monstrous creatures when playing Dark Eldar.

It also means that my love for Fire Dragons definately has it's use when facing Eldar.
I am above all an infantry player and 100% Aspect Warrior infantry now seems playable.
(so not a army version where you only see infantry on a table if an Eldar vehicle gets destroyed, te type of Eldar army i have seen way too many times... ;-)

IMO eldar should be Aspect Warriors anyway.
They are the soldiers. Guardians are (trained) civilians and Farseers and Warlocks are teachers and priests.
IMO it is utter nonsense that these are more frequent on tables than Aspect Warriors.

 xttz wrote:

ORicK wrote:
In practice i find stomp dangerous. So i see to it that what faces the titan has a chance to win or is expendable.
In the case of the imperial knight the explosion is worse though, because it automatically takes down the units that are good enough to take the imperial knight down.

I did not read anywhere that the Wraithknight explodes as well, so i am less worried.

One question though: i read about poison on 6+. Does poison only work on 6+ against Is a gargantuam creature?

It's 6+ unless the strength is high enough to force a lower roll. So if you're lucky enough to have a S10 poison weapon versus T8, you still get 2+ (plus a re-roll if you're in melee). The only option I can think of for this is a Carnifex with Toxin Sacs.

The downside here though?

The Carnifex is WS3 to the WS4 - has lower intiative and the Wraithknight is still S10 ignoring armour. Plus the fact the Carnifex will never realistically reach the Wraithknight, ever. It's base movement is faster and it's a Jump creature to boot. Footslogging 'fexes? There's a reason no one fields them and expects them to get into assault.

So are all the Aspect Warriors pretty viable now? That's definitely a good thing, it's about time.

ORicK wrote:
@xttz: thanks!

So that means i that S8 weapons will be even more important and that poison does not solve monster problem anymore. Which is not a bad thing IMO, it had become a bit too easy against some monstrous creatures when playing Dark Eldar.

It also means that my love for Fire Dragons definately has it's use when facing Eldar.
I am above all an infantry player and 100% Aspect Warrior infantry now seems playable.
(so not a army version where you only see infantry on a table if an Eldar vehicle gets destroyed, te type of Eldar army i have seen way too many times... ;-)

Poison does still have a role against GC's; remember that even with the 6+ they still could hurt a Wraithknight, which your standard lasgun or bolter won't. Lots and lots of splinter weapons can at least shave a few wounds off a WK through sheer volume of fire, which could very plausibly make the difference between it dying before you lose too many units to finish it off. It's no longer the best solution, but massed poison is still viable. Don't forget that many S8+ weapons will lose a fair bit of effectiveness from the new FNP save, and short-range things like meltaguns will have to be within charge range to be of any use.

Personally I see the best anti-Wraithknight weapon as anything that inflicts Instant Death at AP3 or better. That way you're ignoring armour and FNP while dealing D3 wounds. Obviously that's not something every army will have effective access to, but if you do it's certainly worth a shot.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
The Carnifex is WS3 to the WS4 - has lower intiative and the Wraithknight is still S10 ignoring armour. Plus the fact the Carnifex will never realistically reach the Wraithknight, ever. It's base movement is faster and it's a Jump creature to boot. Footslogging 'fexes? There's a reason no one fields them and expects them to get into assault.

I never advocated using melee Fexes to counter Wraithknights, it was simply the only example of a S10 poison weapon I could think of. Still, good on you for not missing out on the chance to make a condescending post!

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 xttz wrote:

ORicK wrote:
In practice i find stomp dangerous. So i see to it that what faces the titan has a chance to win or is expendable.
In the case of the imperial knight the explosion is worse though, because it automatically takes down the units that are good enough to take the imperial knight down.

I did not read anywhere that the Wraithknight explodes as well, so i am less worried.

One question though: i read about poison on 6+. Does poison only work on 6+ against Is a gargantuam creature?

It's 6+ unless the strength is high enough to force a lower roll. So if you're lucky enough to have a S10 poison weapon versus T8, you still get 2+ (plus a re-roll if you're in melee). The only option I can think of for this is a Carnifex with Toxin Sacs.

The downside here though?

The Carnifex is WS3 to the WS4 - has lower intiative and the Wraithknight is still S10 ignoring armour. Plus the fact the Carnifex will never realistically reach the Wraithknight, ever. It's base movement is faster and it's a Jump creature to boot. Footslogging 'fexes? There's a reason no one fields them and expects them to get into assault.

I don't think xttz was suggesting a Carnifex would be a good match up (especially not when you consider all the D Eldar are going to be throwing around), just simply an example of something with poison that is high enough strength that against a WK that the poison roll would be irrelevant because the Str is higher than the WK's T.

 warboss wrote:

Spoiler:

I'm sorry but in that picture all I can see is the Avatar holding a little piece of paper and trying to get it in focus
It just lines up so perfectly with the box in the background

"I knew I should've brought my glasses..."

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 warboss wrote:

Spoiler:

I'm sorry but in that picture all I can see is the Avatar holding a little piece of paper and trying to get it in focus
It just lines up so perfectly with the box in the background

"I knew I should've brought my glasses..."

Can't unsee

Lots and lots of splinter weapons can at least shave a few wounds off a WK through sheer volume of fire, which could very plausibly make the difference between it dying before you lose too many units to finish it off.

It's possible, but not something I would rely on. You need 216 splinter or gauss shots to bring down a WK on average.

Personally I see the best anti-Wraithknight weapon as anything that inflicts Instant Death at AP3 or better.

You are right, but how many weapons fit this profile? You can probably count them on 1 hand.

Also strength is very important.

Nurgle DPs with a balesword used to be very dangerous to a wraithknight (instant death AP2), but now they will need a 6 to wound and will only do 2 wounds on average per hit.

xttz wrote:

ORicK wrote:
@xttz: thanks!

So that means i that S8 weapons will be even more important and that poison does not solve monster problem anymore. Which is not a bad thing IMO, it had become a bit too easy against some monstrous creatures when playing Dark Eldar.

It also means that my love for Fire Dragons definately has it's use when facing Eldar.
I am above all an infantry player and 100% Aspect Warrior infantry now seems playable.
(so not a army version where you only see infantry on a table if an Eldar vehicle gets destroyed, te type of Eldar army i have seen way too many times... ;-)

Poison does still have a role against GC's; remember that even with the 6+ they still could hurt a Wraithknight, which your standard lasgun or bolter won't. Lots and lots of splinter weapons can at least shave a few wounds off a WK through sheer volume of fire, which could very plausibly make the difference between it dying before you lose too many units to finish it off. It's no longer the best solution, but massed poison is still viable. Don't forget that many S8+ weapons will lose a fair bit of effectiveness from the new FNP save, and short-range things like meltaguns will have to be within charge range to be of any use.

Personally I see the best anti-Wraithknight weapon as anything that inflicts Instant Death at AP3 or better. That way you're ignoring armour and FNP while dealing D3 wounds. Obviously that's not something every army will have effective access to, but if you do it's certainly worth a shot.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
The Carnifex is WS3 to the WS4 - has lower intiative and the Wraithknight is still S10 ignoring armour. Plus the fact the Carnifex will never realistically reach the Wraithknight, ever. It's base movement is faster and it's a Jump creature to boot. Footslogging 'fexes? There's a reason no one fields them and expects them to get into assault.

I never advocated using melee Fexes to counter Wraithknights, it was simply the only example of a S10 poison weapon I could think of. Still, good on you for not missing out on the chance to make a condescending post!

As always the problem will not be the wraithknight it self but the rest of the eldar army if you choose to devote all your resources to get rid of the knight. Same thing that was happening a long time ago with wraithlords, opponent was so preoccupied dealing with them that the rest of the eldar army was opening him a new one. The added fact that the wraithknight is mobile and armed with D weaponry makes things even worse since it ranks even higher on the priority list of your opponent. Still its the rest of the army that will do the damage.

A Town Called Malus wrote:

 warboss wrote:

Spoiler:

I'm sorry but in that picture all I can see is the Avatar holding a little piece of paper and trying to get it in focus
It just lines up so perfectly with the box in the background

"I knew I should've brought my glasses..."

"Let me read the instructions again... in order to activate the giant red robot turn on start switch AFTER installing batteries!"

As Capamaru writes: i would field a wraithknight just to get focus off my Aspect Warrior infantry army.

I love to field units or models whose most important role is getting the attention away from what i am actually planning.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And a great picture indeed, the Avatar with reading problems!

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Lots and lots of splinter weapons can at least shave a few wounds off a WK through sheer volume of fire, which could very plausibly make the difference between it dying before you lose too many units to finish it off.

It's possible, but not something I would rely on. You need 216 splinter or gauss shots to bring down a WK on average.

Personally I see the best anti-Wraithknight weapon as anything that inflicts Instant Death at AP3 or better.

You are right, but how many weapons fit this profile? You can probably count them on 1 hand.

Also strength is very important.

Nurgle DPs with a balesword used to be very dangerous to a wraithknight (instant death AP2), but now they will need a 6 to wound and will only do 2 wounds on average per hit.

Nurgle DP with Iron Arm and Touch of Uncreation (Fleshbane)... 6 WS 9 AP2 Instant Death attacks wounding on 2's with re-rolls.
I think? Do you still get the re-roll from poison if it is 'negated' by GMC?

Trasvi wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Lots and lots of splinter weapons can at least shave a few wounds off a WK through sheer volume of fire, which could very plausibly make the difference between it dying before you lose too many units to finish it off.

It's possible, but not something I would rely on. You need 216 splinter or gauss shots to bring down a WK on average.

Personally I see the best anti-Wraithknight weapon as anything that inflicts Instant Death at AP3 or better.

You are right, but how many weapons fit this profile? You can probably count them on 1 hand.

Also strength is very important.

Nurgle DPs with a balesword used to be very dangerous to a wraithknight (instant death AP2), but now they will need a 6 to wound and will only do 2 wounds on average per hit.

Nurgle DP with Iron Arm and Touch of Uncreation (Fleshbane)... 6 WS 9 AP2 Instant Death attacks wounding on 2's with re-rolls.
I think? Do you still get the re-roll from poison if it is 'negated' by GMC?

I believe you would get re-rolls, and with those powers the DP has a good chance of winning.

Fleshbane isn;t needed too badly. An iron arm DP wounds on 3+ and gets to re-roll.

Still, its not as reliable as it used to be.
.

 ImAGeek wrote:
So are all the Aspect Warriors pretty viable now? That's definitely a good thing, it's about time.

Everything has a buff and/or a points reduction so its likely yes - the Aspects all seem to have significant boosts to at least make them worth taking or indeed that may make them more than that. Will people will take them over the bikes etc is a different matter.

How would Abbadon or Karn do against a WK? Throw in a bunch of mooks to tank wounds so you only worry about stomps?

Trasvi wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Kimchi Gamer wrote:

LOL WUT

Stomps are unreliable because they are only D3 small blasts (I do not know why everyone thinks you automatically get 3 of them?). For each blast, you roll and on a 1 that blast does nothing, 2-5 it is str6 AP4. This means that even Marines may go unharmed.

It is only on a 6 that a stomp blast removes models under it. While this is clearly very powerful, it take a bit to get there. Stomps are best to help the SuperHeavy Walker or Gargantuan Creature prevent chaff units from tarpitting them.

Stomps have a 30% chance to get at least 1 6 result per combat phase. Considering a small blast will cover at LEAST 3 models in combat (probably closer to 6) and it better than instant-deaths anything other than other GMC's/SH's, and it can touch be placed on units that are up to 15" away from the combat, they're actually a damn reliable and deadly attack. Another 6-12 S6 AP4 hits with super-isntant-death on 6's with with every combat round is very respectable, better than many dedicated combat units can actually put out from attacks.

How do you get 30% from m a one in six chance? All math being equal you have the exact same odds of doing nothing as you do removing things.
Is the Avatar still just a MC or did he get buffed to GC? Him being moved up to gargantuan would make perfect sense and I can see him having stomp.

 Fishboy wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Kimchi Gamer wrote:

LOL WUT

Stomps are unreliable because they are only D3 small blasts (I do not know why everyone thinks you automatically get 3 of them?). For each blast, you roll and on a 1 that blast does nothing, 2-5 it is str6 AP4. This means that even Marines may go unharmed.

It is only on a 6 that a stomp blast removes models under it. While this is clearly very powerful, it take a bit to get there. Stomps are best to help the SuperHeavy Walker or Gargantuan Creature prevent chaff units from tarpitting them.

Stomps have a 30% chance to get at least 1 6 result per combat phase. Considering a small blast will cover at LEAST 3 models in combat (probably closer to 6) and it better than instant-deaths anything other than other GMC's/SH's, and it can touch be placed on units that are up to 15" away from the combat, they're actually a damn reliable and deadly attack. Another 6-12 S6 AP4 hits with super-isntant-death on 6's with with every combat round is very respectable, better than many dedicated combat units can actually put out from attacks.

How do you get 30% from m a one in six chance? All math being equal you have the exact same odds of doing nothing as you do removing things.
Is the Avatar still just a MC or did he get buffed to GC? Him being moved up to gargantuan would make perfect sense and I can see him having stomp.

Because it is d3 stomps which averages to 2 stomps. 1/6 is about 16% multiplied by 2 for an average of 2 stomps means just over 30% chance of generating one 6.

 docdoom77 wrote:
Because it is d3 stomps which averages to 2 stomps. 1/6 is about 16% multiplied by 2 for an average of 2 stomps means just over 30% chance of generating one 6.

That's not how statistical probability works. If it would work like you say, rolling 6 dice would have a 100% chance of rolling a 6 (which of course, it does not).

But you're close enough in this instance, the chance of rolling at least 1 6 on D3 stomps is
1/3 (chance of rolling 1 stomp) * (1 - 5/6) (chance of rolling a six on one dice) +
1/3 (chance of rolling 2 stomps) * (1 - 5/6 * 5/6) (chance of rolling at least 1 six on two dice) +
1/3 (chance of rolling 3 stomps) * (1 - 5/6 * 5/6 * 5/6) (chance of rolling at least 1 six on three dice) = 29.78%

 Fishboy wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Kimchi Gamer wrote:

LOL WUT

Stomps are unreliable because they are only D3 small blasts (I do not know why everyone thinks you automatically get 3 of them?). For each blast, you roll and on a 1 that blast does nothing, 2-5 it is str6 AP4. This means that even Marines may go unharmed.

It is only on a 6 that a stomp blast removes models under it. While this is clearly very powerful, it take a bit to get there. Stomps are best to help the SuperHeavy Walker or Gargantuan Creature prevent chaff units from tarpitting them.

Stomps have a 30% chance to get at least 1 6 result per combat phase. Considering a small blast will cover at LEAST 3 models in combat (probably closer to 6) and it better than instant-deaths anything other than other GMC's/SH's, and it can touch be placed on units that are up to 15" away from the combat, they're actually a damn reliable and deadly attack. Another 6-12 S6 AP4 hits with super-isntant-death on 6's with with every combat round is very respectable, better than many dedicated combat units can actually put out from attacks.

How do you get 30% from m a one in six chance? All math being equal you have the exact same odds of doing nothing as you do removing things.
Is the Avatar still just a MC or did he get buffed to GC? Him being moved up to gargantuan would make perfect sense and I can see him having stomp.

You have a 1- 1/3 *((5/6^1 + 5/6^2 + 5/6^3)) = 29.8% chance to do at least 1 D-stomp, which removes everything under the blast, which could be anything from 1 guardsmen to 4 carnifexes.

On the other hand, you have a 1/3*(1/6^1+1/6^2+1/6^3) = 6.6% chance of doing absolutely no damage with stomps, and a 6.6% chance of doing all of your attacks as D-stomps - which is complete overkill, as a single 6 does all that you need in taking out anything that troubles you. On average you do about 12 additional S6 AP4 hits (assuming 2 ranks of combat) - which again, on its own is still a very decent combat contribution that many units would be jealous of.

I wish someone would make a probability calculator, it would be really awesome to be able to show how number of dice and all of these things impact the chances of getting something.

Also it would be nice to be able to put in a low and high threshold and say the % chance of being above the low one, or above the high one.

Also help with these mathhammer arguments.

There are plenty of dice probability calculators online, like http://anydice.com/

But yeah, most require at least a basic understanding of how to calculate probability.

 Redemption wrote:
There are plenty of dice probability calculators online, like http://anydice.com/

But yeah, most require at least a basic understanding of how to calculate probability.

Awesome, I will have to have a look at the code for that.

Trasvi wrote:
On average you do about 12 additional S6 AP4 hits (assuming 2 ranks of combat) - which again, on its own is still a very decent combat contribution that many units would be jealous of.

In regards to the bolded part, Stomp isn't limited to things in combat with the stomper.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Lots and lots of splinter weapons can at least shave a few wounds off a WK through sheer volume of fire, which could very plausibly make the difference between it dying before you lose too many units to finish it off.

It's possible, but not something I would rely on. You need 216 splinter or gauss shots to bring down a WK on average.

Personally I see the best anti-Wraithknight weapon as anything that inflicts Instant Death at AP3 or better.

You are right, but how many weapons fit this profile? You can probably count them on 1 hand.

Also strength is very important.

Nurgle DPs with a balesword used to be very dangerous to a wraithknight (instant death AP2), but now they will need a 6 to wound and will only do 2 wounds on average per hit.

Nurgle DP with Iron Arm and Touch of Uncreation (Fleshbane)... 6 WS 9 AP2 Instant Death attacks wounding on 2's with re-rolls.
I think? Do you still get the re-roll from poison if it is 'negated' by GMC?

I believe you would get re-rolls, and with those powers the DP has a good chance of winning.

Fleshbane isn;t needed too badly. An iron arm DP wounds on 3+ and gets to re-roll.

Still, its not as reliable as it used to be.
.

Probably the best "true counter" in the Daemon book that I can think of. Nurgle Princes just need one of: Iron Arm, Warp Speed, or Fleshbane Reward - and getting any two of them will basically guarantee a dead WK once he reaches it. There's of course the possibility of not getting any of them, but if you bring 2-3 Princes, that's not a big concern.

Be'lakor is probably the next best. Gauranteed Invisibility and a 2+ Jink means he'll more than likely make it there, and if he doesn't Jink he's got a nice Psychic Shriek to hopefully burn off a wound or two. Invisibility and Eternal Warrior will hopefully keep him pretty safe in Assault, though it doesn't do anything to mitigate DSword or Stomp rolls of 6. With Fleshbane and Master Crafted, he should be doing pretty well.

You could also try to drown the thing in Slaanesh. Seekers and Daemonettes strike at the same time as the WK with a high number of attacks, hitting on 3s, Rending. Enough attacks should hopefully generate a good amount of 6s, and for a much cheaper price point than the WK. Then he's relying on just his FNP to keep him alive. Statistically needs 81 attacks, which is 41 Daemonettes or 27 Seekers before taking into account things like Alluresses, Heartseekers, or Heralds. If the Heralds have Psychic Shriek or the Locus of Beguilement for rerolls, then that number drastically reduces.

We should be getting some photos from early Codex copies soon, right?

Should have already.

There's a guy posting photo's on 4chan right now, actually.

 Redemption wrote:
There's a guy posting photo's on 4chan right now, actually.

Linky bits?

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Redemption wrote:
There's a guy posting photo's on 4chan right now, actually.

Linky bits?

http://boards.4chan.org/tg/thread/39484213/sup-guys

All leaks correct. Wraithguard get Strength D. Unbelievable.

Dark Eldar have things like ossefactors and flesh gauntlets up the wazoo if they want them.

 Colpicklejar wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Redemption wrote:
There's a guy posting photo's on 4chan right now, actually.

Linky bits?

http://boards.4chan.org/tg/thread/39484213/sup-guys

All leaks correct. Wraithguard get Strength D. Unbelievable.

I'd be interested to see the points costs. I don't know what they are now, but has there been anything said about points increase/decrease on units?

I'd be mildly ok with most things if they got more expensive.

Requizen wrote:

 Colpicklejar wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Redemption wrote:
There's a guy posting photo's on 4chan right now, actually.

Linky bits?

http://boards.4chan.org/tg/thread/39484213/sup-guys

All leaks correct. Wraithguard get Strength D. Unbelievable.

I'd be interested to see the points costs. I don't know what they are now, but has there been anything said about points increase/decrease on units?

I'd be mildly ok with most things if they got more expensive.

Wraithguard receive no points increase. You pay 32 pts for a Strength D gun. Wraithknight went up to 290, as has been discussed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also:

Warp spiders can elect to blink 2d6 when targeted with a weapon. The shooter cannot select a new target. If the spiders do this, they can't warp jump next turn.

Crimson Hunter formation gets preferred enemy flyers/FMCs and an automatic 4+ cover save, which they can re-roll if they choose to jink.

DA formation gives them all BS 5, re-roll all fear stuff, and lets them shoot an extra shuriken once per game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
New swooping hawk rules:

Intercept: at the end of the movement phase, a model with this rule can make an Attack against an enemy Flyer or FMC it has moved over during that turn. The attack hits on a 4+ and is resolved at S4 AP4 with the Haywire USR. Flyers are hit on their side armor.

Herald of victory (Exarch only). Units with a model with this rule don't scatter when DSing.

So how much eating crow will have to be done now that the sky has actually been found to be lowering rapidly to the ground?

 Savageconvoy wrote:
So how much eating crow will have to be done now that the sky has actually been found to be lowering rapidly to the ground?

Considering the pics confirm everything we heard already? Not much.

So at this point the game basically becomes "Play another army if you want, but if you wanna win use the Eldar dex and just substitute your faction of choice."

I love Eldar and all, but this dex does kinda break the game.

Here's another gem:

Eldritch Storm has two cast modes: WC 3 or WC 4.

WC 3 24''- str 3 ap 3 large blast, fleshbane, haywire, pinning

WC 4 24''- str 3 ap 3 Apocalyptic blast, fleshbane, haywire, pinning.

There's also a 15 pt relic that makes a spell a turn 1 less WC to cast. Also farseers can re-roll a psychic test each turn.

 Colpicklejar wrote:
Here's another gem:

Eldritch Storm has two cast modes: WC 3 or WC 4.

WC 3 24''- str 3 ap 3 large blast, fleshbane, haywire, pinning

WC 4 24''- str 3 ap 3 Apocalyptic blast, fleshbane, haywire, pinning.

There's also a 15 pt relic that makes a spell a turn 1 less WC to cast. Also farseers can re-roll a psychic test each turn.

Yeah that is brutal. Apocalyptic AP 3 blast. Will just erase entire marine squads. Luckily it's short range. Jetbike Seer ahoy!

 Colpicklejar wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Redemption wrote:
There's a guy posting photo's on 4chan right now, actually.

Linky bits?

http://boards.4chan.org/tg/thread/39484213/sup-guys

All leaks correct. Wraithguard get Strength D. Unbelievable.

My last quiet hope, that GW has fed misinformation to devalue internet rumours is dead, along with 40K.

This goes beyond the usual broken codex syndrome, and is just a blatant vehicle to prostitute the game in hope of kwik sales of certain items, business as usual, but now notched up to the maximum. I don't have a wraithknight and wont be buying one, it's just broken timmybait.
I will not be adding scatter lasers to all my 20 jetbikes, in fact I might not take them at all out of embarrassment.
I wont buy the codex either, I refuse to spend money on it, and will generate my lists via other means.

 Colpicklejar wrote:
Here's another gem:

Already discussed.

Good luck getting any kind of reliability out of Warp Charge 3 witchfire power. Yes, that negative sentiment includes possible relics and wargear.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Colpicklejar wrote:
Here's another gem:

Already discussed.

Good luck getting any kind of reliability out of Warp Charge 3 witchfire power. Yes, that negative sentiment includes possible relics and wargear.

Considering you can cast it at WC2 on a 3+ and reroll one failed power?

 pretre wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Colpicklejar wrote:
Here's another gem:

Already discussed.

Good luck getting any kind of reliability out of Warp Charge 3 witchfire power. Yes, that negative sentiment includes possible relics and wargear.

Considering you can cast it at WC2 on a 3+ and reroll one failed power?

How much are the psychic relics?

15 points.

Also have to roll the power up too.

I don't think the Eldar book is the be all, end all of the competitive scene. I think you're still going to see Necrons, Tyranids, Daemons, Centurion based marines, Pod based imperium armies, heldrake based armies will be making a comeback.

There are a ton of armies that will still compete just fine. To me it's actually a slight backward step on power from the current book but at worst it's a side step.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Also have to roll the power up too.

I don't think the Eldar book is the be all, end all of the competitive scene. I think you're still going to see Necrons, Tyranids, Daemons, Centurion based marines, Pod based imperium armies, heldrake based armies will be making a comeback.

There are a ton of armies that will still compete just fine. To me it's actually a slight backward step on power from the current book but at worst it's a side step.

Its not like the other powers suck, they're all really good so many are there just to kill a specific model. Oh god fortune on 1 WC...

EDIT: Hmmm been a while since this happened.

Yea honestly I think D being more common in the game might shake things up in a positive direction. And I personally love wacky rules.

My only fear is that only some armies will get the good stuff.

 Colpicklejar wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 Colpicklejar wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Redemption wrote:
There's a guy posting photo's on 4chan right now, actually.

Linky bits?

http://boards.4chan.org/tg/thread/39484213/sup-guys

All leaks correct. Wraithguard get Strength D. Unbelievable.

I'd be interested to see the points costs. I don't know what they are now, but has there been anything said about points increase/decrease on units?

I'd be mildly ok with most things if they got more expensive.

Wraithguard receive no points increase. You pay 32 pts for a Strength D gun. Wraithknight went up to 290, as has been discussed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also:

Warp spiders can elect to blink 2d6 when targeted with a weapon. The shooter cannot select a new target. If the spiders do this, they can't warp jump next turn.

Crimson Hunter formation gets preferred enemy flyers/FMCs and an automatic 4+ cover save, which they can re-roll if they choose to jink.

DA formation gives them all BS 5, re-roll all fear stuff, and lets them shoot an extra shuriken once per game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
New swooping hawk rules:

Intercept: at the end of the movement phase, a model with this rule can make an Attack against an enemy Flyer or FMC it has moved over during that turn. The attack hits on a 4+ and is resolved at S4 AP4 with the Haywire USR. Flyers are hit on their side armor.

Herald of victory (Exarch only). Units with a model with this rule don't scatter when DSing.

Iirc aren't the D-scythes now just an option, with no cost as well?

Pretty sure D-scythe Wraithguard are the deathknell for Fire Dragons.170ish points for 5 as opposed to 110 points but a flamer template that does at least D3 hull points or wounds on a 3+ at AP2 against any target you care to name is probably far better than 2 fusion gun shots. If only for the fact it's a more durable T6 platform and the templates. The glorious templates. Want to assault D-scythe Wraithguard? Unless they have Slow and Purposeful that's going to be harsh. D3 automatic D hits on the assaulter? LULZ.

Swooping Hawks seem like they'll be the death of Flyers if fielded in a big blob for sheer haywire spam. FMC, not so much.

 pretre wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Colpicklejar wrote:
Here's another gem:

Already discussed.

Good luck getting any kind of reliability out of Warp Charge 3 witchfire power. Yes, that negative sentiment includes possible relics and wargear.

Considering you can cast it at WC2 on a 3+ and reroll one failed power?

Yes, even considering those things, hence why my post said to include them.

If you think casting specific powers at 2 warp charges is at all consistent, you should consider playing the lottery for a living.

Also, even assuming you still don't understand how probability actually functions and think this is a guaranteed power in every turn of every game, look at the points cost for what you're describing. Even if it was consistent, it wouldn't be worth it.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Colpicklejar wrote:
Here's another gem:

Already discussed.

Good luck getting any kind of reliability out of Warp Charge 3 witchfire power. Yes, that negative sentiment includes possible relics and wargear.

Considering you can cast it at WC2 on a 3+ and reroll one failed power?

Yes, even considering those things, hence why my post said to include them.

If you think casting specific powers at 2 warp charges is at all consistent, you should consider playing the lottery for a living.

The chances are a lot better of rolling 2 3+'s than winning the lottery.

Fire Dragons may still have a place is run as an Aspect Host. Don't they gain 1+ BS? BS 5 Fire Dragons may have some uses over Wraithguard.

 pretre wrote:

The chances are a lot better of rolling 2 3+'s than winning the lottery.

Roll a 6 to get a power.

Roll 1d6+levels to get warp charges.

Roll 2 3+s on that power.

Roll 2d6+scatter die and actually hit with the power.

Opponent fails to deny power.

Now somehow do that every turn of every game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rollawaythestone wrote:
Fire Dragons may still have a place is run as an Aspect Host. Don't they gain 1+ BS? BS 5 Fire Dragons may have some uses over Wraithguard.

Fire Dragons are objectively better than Wraith guard if you are shooting anything that has T4, 1 Wound, or is a regular vehicle. Against those targets, Fire Dragons are the same offense at 2/3 the cost.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 pretre wrote:

The chances are a lot better of rolling 2 3+'s than winning the lottery.

Roll a 6 to get a power.

Roll 1d6+levels to get warp charges.

Roll 2 3+s on that power.

Roll 2d6+scatter die and actually hit with the power.

Opponent fails to deny power.

Now somehow do that every turn of every game.

You didn't say 'hitting and killing' you said 'casting'. Adding other steps just obfuscates what I was saying.

rollawaythestone wrote:
Fire Dragons may still have a place is run as an Aspect Host. Don't they gain 1+ BS? BS 5 Fire Dragons may have some uses over Wraithguard.

Yes. Firedragons get BS5, +1 on the Vehicle Damage table and, if you want, no-scatter Deepstrike in a Falcon.

A reasonable option for all those old-school tournaments banning D-Weapon Wraithguard with allied WWPs.

 pretre wrote:

You didn't say 'hitting and killing' you said 'casting'. Adding other steps just obfuscates what I was saying.

I said "If you think casting specific powers at 2 warp charges is at all consistent, you should consider playing the lottery for a living. "

Please re-read that. It is not what you think I wrote.

Do you also think every Centurion in existence is constantly Invisible, like 90% of Dakka thinks? Or that Wave Serpents were both immune to penetrating hits and had ignore cover shots simultaneously?

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 pretre wrote:

You didn't say 'hitting and killing' you said 'casting'. Adding other steps just obfuscates what I was saying.

I said "If you think casting specific powers at 2 warp charges is at all consistent, you should consider playing the lottery for a living. "

Please re-read that. It is not what you think I wrote.

Do you also think every Centurion in existence is constantly Invisible, like 90% of Dakka thinks? Or that Wave Serpents were both immune to penetrating hits and had ignore cover shots simultaneously?

Mr.Church13 wrote:
So at this point the game basically becomes "Play another army if you want, but if you wanna win use the Eldar dex and just substitute your faction of choice."

I love Eldar and all, but this dex does kinda break the game.

I disagree. Necrons can hold their own, even against the most cheesy list Eldar can cough up. And even then, in a competitive setting, I doubt Eldar will as "auto-win" as they were.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

rollawaythestone wrote:
Fire Dragons may still have a place is run as an Aspect Host. Don't they gain 1+ BS? BS 5 Fire Dragons may have some uses over Wraithguard.

Fire Dragons are objectively better than Wraith guard if you are shooting anything that has T4, 1 Wound, or is a regular vehicle. Against those targets, Fire Dragons are the same offense at 2/3 the cost.

I dunno. Factor in the following.

D-scythes don't have to roll to hit. Even in the formation you still have to roll to hit.
Templates can and will hit multiple things. Not only can you blanket the unit but you can cover their transport too.
D-scythes and Fusion guns are relatively short ranged. That means you will probably be assaulted by whatever you nuked the vehicle of or decided to shoot if you didn't kill it. Let me tell you what... I'm far more terrified of 5D3 auto hits that do at least D3 wounds a piece on a 3+ than 5 shots that hit on a 6.

More to add...

You get cover saves against fusion guns. Not against D-scythes.
D-scythes do D3 wounds/hull points on a 3+. A fusion gun will do 1 hull point if it doesn't destroy the vehicle.
D-scythes are on a tougher platform. Toughness 6 with a 3+ save. Do not underestimate that. As someone who plays a lot of Nurgle CSM I fully appreciate how potent T5 is as a defense alone. You can weather so much with your toughness. T6 is even better.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Also have to roll the power up too.

I don't think the Eldar book is the be all, end all of the competitive scene. I think you're still going to see Necrons, Tyranids, Daemons, Centurion based marines, Pod based imperium armies, heldrake based armies will be making a comeback.

There are a ton of armies that will still compete just fine. To me it's actually a slight backward step on power from the current book but at worst it's a side step.

Every unit in the Codex has been given a boost and /or a points drop - how in the name of the Seven hells can that possibily be a power reduction?

Which sepecifc area of the codex do you think suddnely makes them weaker - the only possible things is that Cheese Serpents are now just very good rather than broken.....

Well, looks like Eldar are losing quite a bit of their psychic dice in general. Warlocks are Brotherhood of Psykers: ML1 for 1-3 Warlorkcs, ML2 for 4-6, and ML3 for 7+. They lose powers if models die and they drop to the lower ML.

I think in general, then, the Eldar Psychic phase might be toned down? Yes they manifest on a 3+, but it'll be hard to protect your Farseers and Warlocks in general, because they won't be rolling up a billion spells to pick and choose protection powers as easily. Eldar Seer Council lists are going to have a harder time. It is the case, though, that Farseers are given out like candy in the new Eldar Warhost detatchment.

rollawaythestone wrote:
Well, looks like Eldar are losing quite a bit of their psychic dice in general. Warlocks are Brotherhood of Psykers: ML1 for 1-3 Warlorkcs, ML2 for 4-6, and ML3 for 7+. They lose powers if models die and they drop to the lower ML.

I think in general, then, the Eldar Psychic phase might be toned down? Yes they manifest on a 3+, but it'll be hard to protect your Farseers and Warlocks in general, because they won't be rolling up a billion spells to pick and choose protection powers as easily. Eldar Seer Council lists are going to have a harder time. It is the case, though, that Farseers are given out like candy in the new Eldar Warhost detatchment.

Also keep in mind, if they choose to lower the WC of a power, they lose their invuln temporarily. So, it's even easier to gimp them. Shouldn't be that hard.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Also have to roll the power up too.

I don't think the Eldar book is the be all, end all of the competitive scene. I think you're still going to see Necrons, Tyranids, Daemons, Centurion based marines, Pod based imperium armies, heldrake based armies will be making a comeback.

There are a ton of armies that will still compete just fine. To me it's actually a slight backward step on power from the current book but at worst it's a side step.

Every unit in the Codex has been given a boost and /or a points drop - how in the name of the Seven hells can that possibily be a power reduction?

Which sepecifc area of the codex do you think suddnely makes them weaker - the only possible things is that Cheese Serpents are now just very good rather than broken.....

Considering we saw only 3 units in most GT level lists (Serpents, WK's, and either hawks or spiders) merely buffing up units to a playable level doesn't mean the power level of the codex went up. It means that there are more avenues to solid lists. That said the things that made eldar a super tough opponent (largely wave serpents and summoning seers) are gone. In exchange for the hammer blow of not being able to make more troops eldar got scatter laser bikers. Pretty much a wash to me. Serpents no longer ignore cover and shoot from across the table every turn. This is so huge it's almost unreal.

The new codex makes me way, way happier than the current codex. I say that as an Army of the Imperium (basically all kinds of imperial stuff all rolled in together depending on the event) and as a Nid/Daemon player. A larger issue that makes the eldar book stronger is the insistance on 2-detachments but that's a subject for a different day.

It will still be damn hard. But, it's nice that they were actually nerfed a little (by my reading).