I'm only going to be buying Warhounds and some Knights, so my case is probably unusual also. Whatever I would have spent on a Warlord will go into terrain.
TalonZahn wrote: It *is* the Starter Box, there is no OTHER Starter Box.
Incorrect - it *is not* a starter box, the starter box is the OTHER box, the rules box.
The Grand Master's edition is NOT intended as a starter set.
The fact people can't understand this is probably GW's greatest risk.
"I see a big box and I think it must be the starter set" syndrome.
I there's not enough in the box to play with, you can hardly call it a starter box. If the only thing in the box are the rules... well, calling that a Starter box is deluding oneself.
The fact people can't understand this is probably that people's greatest risk.
GW used to put up 'one-click bundles' on their website containing all of the new products for that release window. It had no discount and people would (rightfully) mock the idea. I think it's hilarious is that the time they make a discounted bundle box containing everything from this release window, and people still aren't happy.
I really think this is meant for the returning players who having so many years of waiting they'll pay for this. I wouldn't be surprised if in a few months time we saw a 'real' starter set priced at getting the new players into the game.
I'm "kind" of OK with the price as far as getting a "technically free" Warlord goes, but I honestly expected more terrain for it (and more weapons options).
Plus, I'm not sold at all on the mini-Knights. Zero feths about Knights in epic scale, really. I could proxy any number of 28mm figs looking at the pics released so far.
So in my case, I'm not quite sure what to do.
I want a "substantial city" ... and some towering war machines ... and all my non-GW epic armour & infantry ... which "should" scale nicely with AT.
Dunno what to do tbh ... I mean, for my plans, I'm aware I'll have to mash existing rules with the new Warlord command system, but I'm certain that's doable.
350$ Canadian for the GME 130$ for a warlord lmfao GW... I guess its back to HH 30k.
I talked with the gf about prices @180$ it would of been a no brainer at 220+ it was well let me check the money and maybe save a pay day or two......over 220 its not likely happening
TalonZahn wrote: It *is* the Starter Box, there is no OTHER Starter Box.
Incorrect - it *is not* a starter box, the starter box is the OTHER box, the rules box.
The Grand Master's edition is NOT intended as a starter set.
The fact people can't understand this is probably GW's greatest risk.
"I see a big box and I think it must be the starter set" syndrome.
I don't think you can blame people for that kneejerk reaction. They're used to GW's 'big boxes' being a certain thing and coming in around a certain price. The marketing approach here is obviously different, and aimed at people looking to split a box or the maniacs ready to drop a ton of $$$. And there are definitely enough folks in that latter category to sell through those GM boxes. You just have to visit some other forums to see that.
I admit I scratch my head a little at folks who seem to have expected AT to be a skirmish game-level expenditure. It wasn't ever going to be that, with near-Knight sized Warlords, Contemptor-sized (?) Reavers, Centurion-sized (?) Warhounds, etc.
Having the titans be kind of stupidly big has been solely GW's decision, though, and the prices come entirely from that.
They're redoing and "oldie but goldie" game, and for that they have decided to make new miniatures almost thrice the size of the old ones.I think it's understandable that the increase in price that entails might feel kinda unnecessary for at least some older players. Even moreso when it makes their old collections incompatible.
Well $350 is definitely too much for me, I get why it is priced that high though, they are without question some of the best looking and complex models GW have put out so far. I bet seeing the set in person would make it seem better value anyway, two knight sized models, 6 smaller "troops", and some terrain isn't that bad imho.
Honestly if they had packaged it with one less Warlord and cut the price by $100 I bet everyone would be jumping over it and probably buying two sets.
Individually the prices seem to make a bit more sense so I can see myself gradually building up a force over a few years. Chances are there will be some better deals including Warhounds and Reavers in the future which I am most interested in anyway
Silentz wrote: You thought you were going to get a warlord titan for £45?
For £45 you can have two40K Armigers and they're about the same size... So yeah, £45 for AT Warlord would still have been kinda expensive...
Armigers definitely aren't as big as AT Warlords. For reference their backs barely reach the head of a regular Knight, which the Warlord is well above:
Silentz wrote: You thought you were going to get a warlord titan for £45?
For £45 you can have two40K Armigers and they're about the same size... So yeah, £45 for AT Warlord would still have been kinda expensive...
Armigers definitely aren't as big as AT Warlords. For reference their backs barely reach the head of a regular Knight, which the Warlord is well above:
Spoiler:
It is hard to gauge the exact size bur the angle. But yeah, somewhat bigger than Armiger, but remember, you get two of those in the kit.
It is maybe Dreaknight sized and that's £33. The again Riptide is about the same size and is £50.
Silentz wrote: You thought you were going to get a warlord titan for £45?
For £45 you can have two40K Armigers and they're about the same size... So yeah, £45 for AT Warlord would still have been kinda expensive...
Armigers definitely aren't as big as AT Warlords. For reference their backs barely reach the head of a regular Knight, which the Warlord is well above:
Spoiler:
It is hard to gauge the exact size bur the angle. But yeah, somewhat bigger than Armiger, but remember, you get two of those in the kit.
It is maybe Dreaknight sized and that's £33. The again Riptide is about the same size and is £50.
Its worth remembering that GW price at power level rather than size or amount of plastic used. This is the most powerful (Currently) miniature in the game and the price was always gonna reflect that.
Its worth remembering that GW price at power level rather than size or amount of plastic used. This is the most powerful (Currently) miniature in the game and the price was always gonna reflect that.
They don't, they price on material versus projected sales. That's why space marine boxed sets are cheaper than equivalent sized kits from other armies; it's realistic for them to sell at a much higher volume than most other products.
If they'd come out with doubled sales forecasts for the Warlord kit I would have expected to see a price closer to £55.
Its worth remembering that GW price at power level rather than size or amount of plastic used. This is the most powerful (Currently) miniature in the game and the price was always gonna reflect that.
They don't, they price on material versus projected sales. That's why space marine boxed sets are cheaper than equivalent sized kits from other armies; it's realistic for them to sell at a much higher volume than most other products.
If they'd come out with doubled sales forecasts for the Warlord kit I would have expected to see a price closer to £55.
In game value is clearly a part of their calculus. That's why a character is one model but costs almost as much as a squad.
Its worth remembering that GW price at power level rather than size or amount of plastic used. This is the most powerful (Currently) miniature in the game and the price was always gonna reflect that.
They don't, they price on material versus projected sales. That's why space marine boxed sets are cheaper than equivalent sized kits from other armies; it's realistic for them to sell at a much higher volume than most other products.
If they'd come out with doubled sales forecasts for the Warlord kit I would have expected to see a price closer to £55.
In game value is clearly a part of their calculus. That's why a character is one model but costs almost as much as a squad.
Yes and no.
A character models in-game stats have no impact on its cost at all save for one important aspect - its only expected to sell one model per player of that faction because the game rules only allow you to use one in your army.
A basic troop box is expected to sell multiple copies to the same person as they build up an army, but a character is only ever expected to be sold once to its customer. Any double purchasing is a bonus, but is not to be expected buying patterns for customers.
Its worth remembering that GW price at power level rather than size or amount of plastic used. This is the most powerful (Currently) miniature in the game and the price was always gonna reflect that.
They don't, they price on material versus projected sales. That's why space marine boxed sets are cheaper than equivalent sized kits from other armies; it's realistic for them to sell at a much higher volume than most other products.
If they'd come out with doubled sales forecasts for the Warlord kit I would have expected to see a price closer to £55.
In game value is clearly a part of their calculus. That's why a character is one model but costs almost as much as a squad.
That doesn't have to be anything to do with in game value, the message you quoted could also explain that - characters could well sell a lot less units over time than squads.
If all goes to plan I'll be getting the GM set and an extra box of buildings. I'll get a few battles under my belt before deciding if I should go for a full on cityscape. Reading the bat rep in WD, overly dense terrain may not be such a good thing for this game with the Titans having limited turns and restricted fire arcs.
GoatboyBeta wrote: If all goes to plan I'll be getting the GM set and an extra box of buildings. I'll get a few battles under my belt before deciding if I should go for a full on cityscape. Reading the bat rep in WD, overly dense terrain may not be such a good thing for this game with the Titans having limited turns and restricted fire arcs.
On the contrary, that is the thing I'm most excited for. If I've understood correctly, the game also includes optional rules for destroying scenery.
It would be pretty badass to play in a sprawling cityscape, which gets blasted apart throughout the game when players get frustrated with those restricted firing lanes
Price is lower than I expected (was guessing £190) so that’s interesting. Still won’t buy it since I have no time or opponent willing to jump in, but I hope it does well for them. If I manage to finish off some projects this year I might get it in 2019 and try to convince someone at the club to join me.
GW definitely dropped the ball on this one. IMO the idea of splitting the grand master box is stupid. You can't split the rulebook, dice, templates, etc. The other person still has to buy their own rules pack, making the total cost still expensive for the other person.
What they should have done is a 1 person starter, a set each interested player could buy. Rules pack, 1 warlord, 3 knights, 4 terrain sprues. Or even leave out the terrain, whatever. The discount could be in the knights and terrain. It would have offered a more affordable way for 1 person to buy in. Right now if you don't do the big box, you'e not getting a built in discount in anything and in the long run you're spending more money.
They are really going to limit this games potential for growth I hope they are not surprised when the stock doesn't shift.
But that is how GW has done nearly all their starter sets for a whole range for well over 20 years. One set of rules; two armies. It's been the pattern for so long it MUST work otherwise they'd have stopped years back.
Age of Sigmar starter contains two armies and only enough rules for one person; 40K starter is the same etc....
Thargrim wrote: GW definitely dropped the ball on this one. IMO the idea of splitting the grand master box is stupid. You can't split the rulebook, dice, templates, etc. The other person still has to buy their own rules pack, making the total cost still expensive for the other person.
What they should have done is a 1 person starter, a set each interested player could buy. Rules pack, 1 warlord, 3 knights, 4 terrain sprues. Or even leave out the terrain, whatever. The discount could be in the knights and terrain. It would have offered a more affordable way for 1 person to buy in. Right now if you don't do the big box, you'e not getting a built in discount in anything and in the long run you're spending more money.
They are really going to limit this games potential for growth I hope they are not surprised when the stock doesn't shift.
The grand master box basically throws in the rulebook and the terrain for free. So if you get the box and a rulebook set then you get rules 50% off and free buildings.
Overread wrote: But that is how GW has done nearly all their starter sets for a whole range for well over 20 years. One set of rules; two armies. It's been the pattern for so long it MUST work otherwise they'd have stopped years back.
Age of Sigmar starter contains two armies and only enough rules for one person; 40K starter is the same etc....
Not to mention that the contents are all perfectly useful to one person in building a standard sized force unlike most of the two-forces starter packs so it's actually more attractive for a single purchaser than most starter boxes.
Overread wrote: But that is how GW has done nearly all their starter sets for a whole range for well over 20 years. One set of rules; two armies. It's been the pattern for so long it MUST work otherwise they'd have stopped years back.
Age of Sigmar starter contains two armies and only enough rules for one person; 40K starter is the same etc....
I'm not sure if this one will work as well, because the force are duplicates and the super high cost so I guess we'll see. It's tempting to want to just keep all the contents, leave one warlord unbuilt and wait for the lucius head and shoulder shields. And ideally you'd have six knight models on hand for a full game anyways. The one thing I know for sure this game has going for it is the rules and physical components are spot on, some of the best models they've done.
Sad to see that $290.00 price up there, but I wasn't going to get one anyway.
More sad to see people talking about interviews referring to the Warlord being the "core" of the game. That's a shame. I've far more interest in Reavers, Warhounds, etc. The game deserves to be far more versatile than a Warlord Titan-simulator. We'll see when the game gets in peoples' hands.
Overread wrote: But that is how GW has done nearly all their starter sets for a whole range for well over 20 years. One set of rules; two armies. It's been the pattern for so long it MUST work otherwise they'd have stopped years back.
Age of Sigmar starter contains two armies and only enough rules for one person; 40K starter is the same etc....
And what's more, unlike those other starters, if you don't split all is good as everything can be used in the same force. A starter where you can have everything for 1 side or 2, bonus.
At those prices I really can't see this catching on at all in my area. 290 bucks for a set that doesn't even given enough to play with is way too much to test a game out. 40k, AOS, Kill Team, Blood Bowl, and Necromunda all give bundles that two players can actually experience game play (if at a smaller level) at a fraction of the price.That and the amount of terrain in the box is way less than anticipated. I think this will be one of those games that my FLG will get a single box of GM edition in, and it will sit there for three or four years collecting dust, and then they'll clear it out for half off and someone will buy it.
Part of the problem with this game though is the absurd scale GW decided to use (which of course influences the costs). They probably won't make a model for Imperator titans, but will release rules and encourage you to find a local young child and dress them up in cosplay.
I think Thargrim has a good point, this would probably have done much better if they released single player starters with the rules, a warlord, and a box of knights for 140$ish.
In the end, I was somewhat interested, but at those price points, I'll pass for sure.
Thargrim wrote: GW definitely dropped the ball on this one. IMO the idea of splitting the grand master box is stupid. You can't split the rulebook, dice, templates, etc. The other person still has to buy their own rules pack, making the total cost still expensive for the other person.
What they should have done is a 1 person starter, a set each interested player could buy. Rules pack, 1 warlord, 3 knights, 4 terrain sprues. Or even leave out the terrain, whatever. The discount could be in the knights and terrain. It would have offered a more affordable way for 1 person to buy in. Right now if you don't do the big box, you'e not getting a built in discount in anything and in the long run you're spending more money.
They are really going to limit this games potential for growth I hope they are not surprised when the stock doesn't shift.
Agree. This is not looking good. Space Marine (2nd ed Epic) was my introduction to 40k. Was looking forward to this and now very leery. Big problem is that they are treating the Warlord as an army centerpiece model price wise but not including any cheaper alternatives. That there are no alternative weapons on the kits make the price more galling. That Reavers and Warhounds aren't present means this isn't going to get much traction initially due to no lower price entry points. There is going to be no army variety, so unless all the titans are out in the next month, the game is going to get stale fast.
The best starter team would be 1 Reaver and 2 Warhound for each side, at least the Reaver have options. Having the zero option Warlord as a launch kit is a terrible mistake.
Maybe in 2019 they would get smarter and remake the content of the GM box.
It would be pretty badass to play in a sprawling cityscape, which gets blasted apart throughout the game when players get frustrated with those restricted firing lanes
That does sound cool. But on the other hand I'd also rather not take two or more game turns navigating a sharp corner
With Warlords being restricted to one 45 degree turn(2 if they overcharge the reactor) I can see at least one of my games ending up with two Titans endlessly circling each other
Elbows wrote: Sad to see that $290.00 price up there, but I wasn't going to get one anyway.
More sad to see people talking about interviews referring to the Warlord being the "core" of the game. That's a shame. I've far more interest in Reavers, Warhounds, etc. The game deserves to be far more versatile than a Warlord Titan-simulator. We'll see when the game gets in peoples' hands.
I think you're overblowing some marketing talk. We've already seen an example maniple that includes no Warlords. The Axiom Command Terminal pack apparently gives you the terminals for a maniple consisting of one Warlord, one or two Reavers and one or two Warhounds. And considering that the terminals in the box include two each for Reavers, Warhounds and Knights, it's safe to say that the other models play a big role in the game. Their terminals are all over the place.
Of course they want everyone to own a Warlord. It's the most expensive model that they're pushing.
silent25 wrote: Agree. This is not looking good. Space Marine (2nd ed Epic) was my introduction to 40k. Was looking forward to this and now very leery. Big problem is that they are treating the Warlord as an army centerpiece model price wise but not including any cheaper alternatives. That there are no alternative weapons on the kits make the price more galling. That Reavers and Warhounds aren't present means this isn't going to get much traction initially due to no lower price entry points. There is going to be no army variety, so unless all the titans are out in the next month, the game is going to get stale fast.
What it says is that GW is in the game for a longer haul, and don't feel the need to release everything at once and cash out. Everyone isn't an early adopter anyway. Personally, I want my Warhounds and wish they were out immediately. But I can spend a couple months learning the game.
I still think they should have all the Titans available at the get go. That way they could do a 2 player set with a pair of reavers, a pair of warhounds, six knights, and the rules for like $175. A price where two players could spend less than 100$ each and find out if they like the game before investing further.
Sabotage! wrote: I still think they should have all the Titans available at the get go. That way they could do a 2 player set with a pair of reavers, a pair of warhounds, six knights, and the rules for like $175. A price where two players could spend less than 100$ each and find out if they like the game before investing further.
The game in this instance is the management of your titan(s) against an enemy titan(s). You can find out if you like the game by picking up the rules and then using your existing 40k models to run through the game. Including more models wouldn't really help you.
Sabotage! wrote: I still think they should have all the Titans available at the get go. That way they could do a 2 player set with a pair of reavers, a pair of warhounds, six knights, and the rules for like $175. A price where two players could spend less than 100$ each and find out if they like the game before investing further.
The game in this instance is the management of your titan(s) against an enemy titan(s). You can find out if you like the game by picking up the rules and then using your existing 40k models to run through the game. Including more models wouldn't really help you.
Sure, and you could pick up the rules for 40k and try the game out with coins of various values, but how many gamers do you know that will do that? There is a reason most miniatures games release starter sets.
Sure, and you could pick up the rules for 40k and try the game out with coins of various values, but how many gamers do you know that will do that? There is a reason most miniatures games release starter sets.
The difference is that you can test/play titanicus with literally one model. You don't need 30 pennies, 15 nickels and 2 sacajawea dollars to represent it. Grab a dreadnought each and you're good to go.
Right, some fellas here seem to have weirdly high standards I'm pretty sure very few games ever have met.
Why do people claim you can't play with what's in the box? Main designer has explicitly said the game is designed to offer play even with one model via the command terminals since the original plan was to go with superduper expensive resin models. The GME-box offers 8 models, two of which are Warlords. That is plenty to play with.
Why do people lament so much that there is no other titans? They will be out in a month or two, this year anyway. How frikkn' many matches of this specific game do you intend to play in those two or three months that you can already claim the game getting stale in that time? One every evening? Ain't nobody got time for that.
Why do people moan so much about the lack of physical weapon models? Those will be out in a few months too, probably after the two lighter titans, and the models have explicitly been said to contain places for magnets so you can assemble them with volcano cannons at this point and then change to upgrades / conversions later on should you wish to. The rules for other weapons are already in the box.
Why do people lament the box as a bad starter? It is objectively better than other starters in the history of ever because it can either produce two armies or one larger one.
Okay, I get some might not like the price or the terrain that inflates that a bit, but sheesh. At least try to get your facts straight with other gripes and chill out. In EVERY OTHER respect than the price, this set is great.
I probably wasn't going to buy in anyways, so take my opinion for what you will.
The problem I see with the way they released this game is the price point of what most people will perceive as the game's starter set. Most people I know who play miniature games got into the game by purchasing a starter set, playing through it a few times and deciding they wanted to go with it. Most gamers I know will also not spend 290 USD on a starter set for a game that has no relevant history (being a completely new ruleset and what not). When people don't buy into a game, they don't become players of said game, and as such I see this suffering a very similar fate to Aeronauticus Imperialis.
GW could have very greatly increased their potential audience for this game by putting out a set with a couple lighter titans (pretty silly to include the games centerpiece model in the starter set), some knights, and the rules at a significantly lower price point. Had they put out a boxed set (that most will view as a starter, as that has been GWs business model forever) at half the price point, people would be much more willing to try it out and thus become invested in the game. I can already tell you everyone in my gaming group will not be willing to try the game out at the current price, so for us this game is DOA. I imagine most gaming groups will be the same.
This is indeed the first game starter pack that gives you 100% one faction usable models in the box. Most are two armies and you either want both or you'v got to trade one away or duel buy the box when you get it .
In this you get enough for two players to play with and you can also go solo. Heck wouldn't surprise me that, with the saving, many get it just for the content and then sell the excess rules online (4 warlords - lots of terrain and 4 groups of knights!)
I am cautiously optimistic about this project. The problem that I see, is that while I think the models look great, and I may buy a couple of them in the next year, I won't buy the starter.
If I were to play a game like this, I'd want Eldar titans, and that to me is the crux of why I am cautiously optimistic about this game. Right now, they're cool models to collect and paint, but as for flare and fun. I'm just not seeing it yet.
The sad part to me is that they have stated on record that if the game does well they will add 40K Xenos and so on later through updates and expansions. But so far, all I am reading about the game is doom and gloom, whining and complaints, and that doesn't bode well for the future.
I guess this project might just be a little bit too ambitious.
Togusa wrote: I am cautiously optimistic about this project. The problem that I see, is that while I think the models look great, and I may buy a couple of them in the next year, I won't buy the starter.
If I were to play a game like this, I'd want Eldar titans, and that to me is the crux of why I am cautiously optimistic about this game. Right now, they're cool models to collect and paint, but as for flare and fun. I'm just not seeing it yet.
The sad part to me is that they have stated on record that if the game does well they will add 40K Xenos and so on later through updates and expansions. But so far, all I am reading about the game is doom and gloom, whining and complaints, and that doesn't bode well for the future.
I guess this project might just be a little bit too ambitious.
Depends on where one reads, though. Dakka is the resident haven for whining and complaining, with the occasional interesting critical analysis mixed in there, whereas in many other communities there's sparked interest that might flare when the game gets out and we'll have more exposure to it. The price is a bit hefty, yes, but I'm not too pessimistic about that when one considers the very limited need for models in the game. Sure, a hundred or two stings, but with less need to expand it'll still be within bounds of reason. I know I've bought just rule books and tested games with proxy models before going further in, no reason people couldn't do the same here as there is indeed a modelless rules box available.
Well, I can tell you that it isn't all doom and gloom, our local grouops are grabbing this and running with it. So far the LGS has six starter boxes on preorder, about as many interested but waiting to see a bit more first...
My biggest decision at the moment, is whether to do loyalists or traitors first. I may end up doing traitors, since more people seem to want to do loyalists first. :-)
Oh, and basing. Do I go Martian red, or more standard factory grey for bases... Can't wait till friday, early promo packs are supposed to hit the stores then.
Togusa wrote: I am cautiously optimistic about this project. The problem that I see, is that while I think the models look great, and I may buy a couple of them in the next year, I won't buy the starter.
If I were to play a game like this, I'd want Eldar titans, and that to me is the crux of why I am cautiously optimistic about this game. Right now, they're cool models to collect and paint, but as for flare and fun. I'm just not seeing it yet.
The sad part to me is that they have stated on record that if the game does well they will add 40K Xenos and so on later through updates and expansions. But so far, all I am reading about the game is doom and gloom, whining and complaints, and that doesn't bode well for the future.
I guess this project might just be a little bit too ambitious.
I think this is part of the teeth gnashing about this game. People want Epic 2.0. This is not Epic 2.0. It's basically a titan simulator akin to the mech warrior games. You manage the reactor, the guns, the shields. How does that even translate to xenos machines? Additionally when you add a bunch of xenos factions, then you only marginally increase the player base while any future updates will cost you resources and will only be bought by a subset of players. If you have a game where all the models/rules are applicable to the whole player base, any new models/books will be bought by everyone that plays.
Its worth remembering that GW price at power level rather than size or amount of plastic used. This is the most powerful (Currently) miniature in the game and the price was always gonna reflect that.
They don't, they price on material versus projected sales. That's why space marine boxed sets are cheaper than equivalent sized kits from other armies; it's realistic for them to sell at a much higher volume than most other products.
If they'd come out with doubled sales forecasts for the Warlord kit I would have expected to see a price closer to £55.
In game value is clearly a part of their calculus. That's why a character is one model but costs almost as much as a squad.
That would be "projected sales". Remember plastic costs are front loaded. Material itself is pretty much free but getting to stage you can cast them is expensive. For gw cost is about same whether they produce 10000 or 100000 units. But if you sell less(due to rules limiting) you need to price up model.
Ig commisar is hardly powerhouse but it's not going to be spammed so will be priced higher than troops(more useful in the game)
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: I think 110 USD per Warlord would be easier to swallow if there was more than one weapon load out for the thing.
This is part of it too. The cost we're being given is the entry cost on model. There are still all the wonderful weapons they can be armed with that will cost us more. Though if they're similar to the Necromunda gangs it won't be to bad. Assuming FW doesn't get the US pricing upgrade and it goes flat exchange rate but that's unlikely (see recent warhammer-community article for details).
Togusa wrote: I am cautiously optimistic about this project. The problem that I see, is that while I think the models look great, and I may buy a couple of them in the next year, I won't buy the starter.
If I were to play a game like this, I'd want Eldar titans, and that to me is the crux of why I am cautiously optimistic about this game. Right now, they're cool models to collect and paint, but as for flare and fun. I'm just not seeing it yet.
The sad part to me is that they have stated on record that if the game does well they will add 40K Xenos and so on later through updates and expansions. But so far, all I am reading about the game is doom and gloom, whining and complaints, and that doesn't bode well for the future.
I guess this project might just be a little bit too ambitious.
Depends on where one reads, though. Dakka is the resident haven for whining and complaining, with the occasional interesting critical analysis mixed in there, whereas in many other communities there's sparked interest that might flare when the game gets out and we'll have more exposure to it. The price is a bit hefty, yes, but I'm not too pessimistic about that when one considers the very limited need for models in the game. Sure, a hundred or two stings, but with less need to expand it'll still be within bounds of reason. I know I've bought just rule books and tested games with proxy models before going further in, no reason people couldn't do the same here as there is indeed a modelless rules box available.
Well the facebook scale model kit group I belong to has firm orders for 24 grand master editions since they posted it today including at least 3 folk wanting 2 boxes, and that's the most enthusiasm I've seen for any games workshop stuff on it (compared to 18 Dark Imperium on it's release, 6 for Imperial Knight Renegade and 3 for Soul Wars). Now I suspect there's a strong nostalgia pull with a lot of scale model kit builders being older and thus far more likely to have played/lusted after AT when it first came out, but I think it shows the demand will be strong even at the price
I guess the question is how many of them will be playing, and of those how many will be playing in public places like stores and clubs as it might well be that the typical (older) buyer is less likely to play outside of their friend group
Whelp, the pricing just ruled me out of being able to pick up the GM box, and I’m not too keen on a $110 Warlord.
I’m guessing the $60 rulebook includes all the cardboard you need as well (or at least, it better if they want to get me on board). Might have to go that route and tweak any templates to my old AT stuff or proxy my Knights & BT models to fill in until I cave in to buy this stuff.
People keep describing the GME box as a starter, but it really isn't. It contains everything from the opening release wave along with mirrored forces that can also be fielded as one substantial army. It would be like if they took the Knight: Renegade set and added a full 40k rulebook, dice, counters and a pair of Armigers.
I bet we'll see discounted Maniple sets after Reavers & Warhounds come out to keep the momentum going.
Personally I'll see how things play out and see if it picks up. Otherwise I'll grab a model here or there and slowly build a display legio for my Iron Warriors Epic HH army.
xttz wrote: People keep describing the GME box as a starter, but it really isn't. It contains everything from the opening release wave along with mirrored forces that can also be fielded as one substantial army. It would be like if they took the Knight: Renegade set and added a full 40k rulebook, dice, counters and a pair of Armigers.
I bet we'll see discounted Maniple sets after Reavers & Warhounds come out to keep the momentum going.
Sounds like a starter to me - has everything you need to get started with the game.
Just because GW is gun shy calling it a starter due to price, doesn’t mean it isn’t one.
Overread wrote: This is indeed the first game starter pack that gives you 100% one faction usable models in the box. Most are two armies and you either want both or you'v got to trade one away or duel buy the box when you get it .
But you could get two of those other starters at the price of this.
So, looking at the prices, it may be better to order directly from Forge World (if possible). Or drive to Canada if a discounter is selling somewhere in British Columbia.
Hmm. Suddenly I wonder if the Warlord is the upper scale (the equivalent of a Knight in regular 40K), if with the next round of Reavers and Warhounds if we’ll see a more “reasonable” starter set that is a step down from the GM version. The “Know No Fear” and even smaller box (I forget its name) gives me hope in a couple months we may set an AT box set that’s more affordable than this GM set.
Breotan wrote: So, looking at the prices, it may be better to order directly from Forge World (if possible). Or drive to Canada if a discounter is selling somewhere in British Columbia.
xttz wrote: People keep describing the GME box as a starter, but it really isn't.
But it is the only thing even remotely starter-like. You can’t start the game with just the rules packet. You can buy models piecemeal, but to approach a proper game, you’re still spending a shedload of cash up front.
The GME is a starter. It’s just that AT is not a mass market game, and thus priced based on fewer projected sales to a small, but dedicated group of players with a lot of disposable income.
Edit: Initially. Early adopters are willing to pay more for less, so when AT is ready for mass consumption, there will be cheaper options - by then the moulds will be paid off and GW will release a bunch of savings bundles.
Sqorgar wrote: The GME is a starter. It’s just that AT is not a mass market game, and thus priced based on fewer projected sales to a small, but dedicated group of players with a lot of disposable income.
I think this is fair. It's just not the kind of starter that we see with 40K or AoS.
Breotan wrote: So, looking at the prices, it may be better to order directly from Forge World (if possible). Or drive to Canada if a discounter is selling somewhere in British Columbia.
Breotan wrote: So, looking at the prices, it may be better to order directly from Forge World (if possible). Or drive to Canada if a discounter is selling somewhere in British Columbia.
It might be cheaper for me to go 'just' rules, 1 Warlord and wait for Reavers and Warhounds.
Decisions, decisions...
Yeah, I’m considering proxying my Knight model for Warlord, Armiger as Warhounds until I can save up to get the actual models. Still leaves me having to get the rules, but will let me ease into the game slightly easier. Not sure what I could use to proxy Reavers....
It might be cheaper for me to go 'just' rules, 1 Warlord and wait for Reavers and Warhounds.
Decisions, decisions...
Rules and 1 warlord is 170. If you double that you get 340 and that's basically the cost of the GM box and a ruleset. So if you split the GM box with someone and get the rules then you're paying the same and getting the knights and terrain for free.
Sherrypie wrote: Right, some fellas here seem to have weirdly high standards I'm pretty sure very few games ever have met.
Why do people claim you can't play with what's in the box? Main designer has explicitly said the game is designed to offer play even with one model via the command terminals since the original plan was to go with superduper expensive resin models. The GME-box offers 8 models, two of which are Warlords. That is plenty to play with.
Why do people lament so much that there is no other titans? They will be out in a month or two, this year anyway. How frikkn' many matches of this specific game do you intend to play in those two or three months that you can already claim the game getting stale in that time? One every evening? Ain't nobody got time for that.
Why do people moan so much about the lack of physical weapon models? Those will be out in a few months too, probably after the two lighter titans, and the models have explicitly been said to contain places for magnets so you can assemble them with volcano cannons at this point and then change to upgrades / conversions later on should you wish to. The rules for other weapons are already in the box.
Why do people lament the box as a bad starter? It is objectively better than other starters in the history of ever because it can either produce two armies or one larger one.
Okay, I get some might not like the price or the terrain that inflates that a bit, but sheesh. At least try to get your facts straight with other gripes and chill out. In EVERY OTHER respect than the price, this set is great.
You talk about facts after an entirely subjective diatribe.
- Most people don't "Think" that's plenty to play with ("Think " - not "Know", as you seem to know. Fact.)
- I want to know the prices so that I'll be able to decide whether or not to buy the main box
- Why the hell should I have to magnetise anything?
- "Subjectively" - in your opinion - the best starter. I won't go into the reasons I disagree because my reasons are "Subjective"
- In ALMOST EVERY OTHER respect (The atmosphere the game evokes, the aesthetic of the models) I like the box. Please at least try to get your opinions straight and relax.
Mysterio wrote: So Titans sold on their own won't have command terminals in them?
Doesn't look like it.
That's going to be an issue for a lot of folk. If you only want to collect certain classes of Titan, having to buy the multipack with terminals for chassis you won't use or else order mono-engine packs direct from GW with no discount will rankle.
And speaking of discounts - what's up with the UK retailers on this one? Most of the prices I've seen people posting so far barely crack 10-15% off.
Mysterio wrote: So Titans sold on their own won't have command terminals in them?
Doesn't look like it.
That's going to be an issue for a lot of folk. If you only want to collect certain classes of Titan, having to buy the multipack with terminals for chassis you won't use or else order mono-engine packs direct from GW with no discount will rankle.
And speaking of discounts - what's up with the UK retailers on this one? Most of the prices I've seen people posting so far barely crack 10-15% off.
Limited quantity may have their margin being lower than usual? No idea. Waiting on the us and more open minded vendors out there
Yah no way I'm dropping that kind of money on a new game without a player base yet. I was going to get it for my birthday but $290 is a hard gut check.
Sherrypie wrote: Right, some fellas here seem to have weirdly high standards I'm pretty sure very few games ever have met.
Why do people claim you can't play with what's in the box? Main designer has explicitly said the game is designed to offer play even with one model via the command terminals since the original plan was to go with superduper expensive resin models. The GME-box offers 8 models, two of which are Warlords. That is plenty to play with.
Why do people lament so much that there is no other titans? They will be out in a month or two, this year anyway. How frikkn' many matches of this specific game do you intend to play in those two or three months that you can already claim the game getting stale in that time? One every evening? Ain't nobody got time for that.
Why do people moan so much about the lack of physical weapon models? Those will be out in a few months too, probably after the two lighter titans, and the models have explicitly been said to contain places for magnets so you can assemble them with volcano cannons at this point and then change to upgrades / conversions later on should you wish to. The rules for other weapons are already in the box.
Why do people lament the box as a bad starter? It is objectively better than other starters in the history of ever because it can either produce two armies or one larger one.
Okay, I get some might not like the price or the terrain that inflates that a bit, but sheesh. At least try to get your facts straight with other gripes and chill out. In EVERY OTHER respect than the price, this set is great.
You talk about facts after an entirely subjective diatribe.
- Most people don't "Think" that's plenty to play with ("Think " - not "Know", as you seem to know. Fact.)
- I want to know the prices so that I'll be able to decide whether or not to buy the main box
- Why the hell should I have to magnetise anything?
- "Subjectively" - in your opinion - the best starter. I won't go into the reasons I disagree because my reasons are "Subjective"
- In ALMOST EVERY OTHER respect (The atmosphere the game evokes, the aesthetic of the models) I like the box. Please at least try to get your opinions straight and relax.
Sorry if I sounded snide, I just find some of these complaints somewhat silly. Complaining about the price isn't silly, everyone has their own financial situation which may or may not permit them to indulge in such an expensive box.
But regarding facts, I don't think there's too much subjectivity in my original post.
- Main designer has said even one let's you play meaningfully. Two titans and half a dozen knights are plenty, solidly in the "normal" game category instead of "small skirmish". This is also supported by warlords costing what, 400-500~ish points with weapons (as seen in the command terminals) and "small skirmish" being well under 1000 points (as seen in one rule book teaser page). The box is like getting a 1500 points army for 40k in a box. That is plenty for a starter box, unless you prefer apocalypse-sized games as your normal fare.
- Seriously, no-one but those who game professionally has time to play themselves bored before the other titans are out. Wanting to know the prices is cool, but wanting everything immediately instead of appreciating GW's release procedure for a game that burst in their radar from pretty much zero (FW only resin release and stuff) is a bit petty.
- Of course you don't have to magnetize if you don't want to, but that is clearly their chosen route. Get an already pretty packed sprue out in the release and expand from there, just like they've succesfully done with Necromunda.
- No, I'm referring to the starter being better than normal starters in an abstract manner because it is. Normally you get rules, accessories and two forces in a starter. Here you get rules, accessories and the option to make either one or two forces from this starter. That is objectively better, because you get more options. Subjective opinion plays no role here.
- Those are the facts to which I refer. People are well within their rights to think the box is not good for them because X, Y and Z, but in these respects I don't really see too much problems with it except what everyone is willing to pay or not and how many might skip it because the paywall up front is too high. Do I wish it was lower? Sure.
Mysterio wrote: So Titans sold on their own won't have command terminals in them?
Doesn't look like it.
That's going to be an issue for a lot of folk. If you only want to collect certain classes of Titan, having to buy the multipack with terminals for chassis you won't use or else order mono-engine packs direct from GW with no discount will rankle.
And speaking of discounts - what's up with the UK retailers on this one? Most of the prices I've seen people posting so far barely crack 10-15% off.
Community Horse trading seems the answer here. "I'll trade you my spare warhound card for your spare reiver card"
Sherrypie wrote: - No, I'm referring to the starter being better than normal starters in an abstract manner because it is. Normally you get rules, accessories and two forces in a starter. Here you get rules, accessories and the option to make either one or two forces from this starter. That is objectively better, because you get more options. Subjective opinion plays no role here.
Most people I know buy starters because they offer a good number of models for a fairly significant discount on price, compared to what the models would sell for otherwise.
That being said, the GM edition is NOT a starter box.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: I think 110 USD per Warlord would be easier to swallow if there was more than one weapon load out for the thing.
This is part of it too. The cost we're being given is the entry cost on model. There are still all the wonderful weapons they can be armed with that will cost us more. Though if they're similar to the Necromunda gangs it won't be to bad. Assuming FW doesn't get the US pricing upgrade and it goes flat exchange rate but that's unlikely (see recent warhammer-community article for details).
I was doing some careful reading and the weapons are gonna be pretty much 100% optional. as our weapons configs are going to be tied to cards on the control terminal. so without modeling for it, it'll be clear what each titan is carrying.
Breotan wrote: Well, I just looked at what international sellers are charging for shipping to the US.
+$78.09 shipping
*cough*
Looks about right for a box that size.
Yea, but it obliterates any possible discount we might see if we could order from abroad. Hopefully FW will have these for sale and we can get free shipping.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: I think 110 USD per Warlord would be easier to swallow if there was more than one weapon load out for the thing.
This is part of it too. The cost we're being given is the entry cost on model. There are still all the wonderful weapons they can be armed with that will cost us more. Though if they're similar to the Necromunda gangs it won't be to bad. Assuming FW doesn't get the US pricing upgrade and it goes flat exchange rate but that's unlikely (see recent warhammer-community article for details).
I was doing some careful reading and the weapons are gonna be pretty much 100% optional. as our weapons configs are going to be tied to cards on the control terminal. so without modeling for it, it'll be clear what each titan is carrying.
That's fine, but as someone that likes to build the models and the appearence of certain weapons over others, I'd still like the option to build the Titans how they should look, rather than just putting Volcanoe Cannons and Missile Launcher on it and calling it good. Exspecially when I am paying 110 dollars for the 'privelage' of building it.
That said, I'll probably just look to see if there is an easy way to magnitize them for future releases.
Breotan wrote: Most people I know buy starters because they offer a good number of models for a fairly significant discount on price, compared to what the models would sell for otherwise.
That being said, the GM edition is NOT a starter box.
A lot of people think that it is a starter, so that's just bad marketing on GWs behalf. They did a poor job of hitting home that this game doesn't have a conventional starter like 40k. Not to mention waiting last minute to drop the price yields knee jerk reactions (that GW deserves if you ask me). Even the FB group has had to start just deleting the rampant negativity that took over the page.
I do think they should have made another smaller box that is a starter. I think after this initial run sells so poorly they will repackage some things and offer a smaller set without the warlords, with warhounds instead and a less cringe inducing price. But that probably won't happen until later on next year. By then the game would have already tanked though and interest will never be as high then as it was these past couple months. This is just depressing to me, took all the wind out of my excitement literally overnight.
lololol Oh Thargrim, this is GW. If it doesn't sell it will just be quietly retired for a while, then they'll find some stock in a 'warehouse' for a limited release once demand spikes again.
Look at the posters here- dakkadakka's their target market. I'd say for every person declaring I'm out, there's one declaring they're all in and two saying they'll just wait until xmas. At this price point, I think they're going to see great success even if only a third of the interested parties purchase immediately.
Those of you planning to wait and order from Forgeworld...
Spoiler:
Forge World – Better Service, Faster Shipping
The team at Forge World make some truly amazing models – from gargantuan monsters and renowned heroes right up to the towering god-machines of the Titan Legions. Until now, though, getting ahold of these miniatures outside of the UK has not always been easy. While the Forge World website has long provided a wide selection of models to choose from – payment options have been limited, and the only currency anything could be paid for in was British Pounds. Added to that, shipping times, especially in North America, were often pretty long – and we understand that that can be frustrating when you’re eager to add that game-winning unit or centrepiece kit to your collection as soon as possible.
Well, good news – this is set to change – with two big improvements coming to Forge World later this August:
Better Payment Options and Faster Shipping.
You’ll soon be able to pay in your local currency, rather than having to use British Pounds. (Read: You soon will be paying for your stuff on Forgeworld's site with the exact same markup you pay on standard GW products in your country)
This is great news for anyone outside the UK, as it means you’ll be able to see far more easily what each item costs without having to run anything through a currency converter. And you won’t get hit with any surprise conversion fees that many banks will charge for shopping abroad. This also means that prices will be consistent instead of fluctuating with exchange rates – so that Primarch will cost you the same one day as the next.
In addition, we’ll be expanding our payment options.
Alongside the existing PayPal, credit and debit card payments – you’ll find new options for Discover in the US and American Express for US and Canadian shoppers, and a new ELV payment choice for customers in Germany and Austria, meaning that you have more options than ever on how to check out.
And we have even bigger news for Forge World fans in the USA and Canada.
As part of these service updates, we’ve been busy expanding our Forge World warehouse facility to the USA – Operation: Sector Munitorum Memphis. Soon, all Forge World orders to the US or Canada will ship out from our warehouse in Memphis, Tennessee.
What this means for you is that we can fulfil your orders much, much faster than ever before. Instead of waiting weeks for transportation of your titanic transatlantic treats – you can expect your order in a matter of days! Decide you need a new unit in your army following a game at your weekly Age of Darkness gaming night? Order it up, and you could have it in your army by the following week!*
With the expansion of our warehouses, we’ve also taken the opportunity to make improvements to all our shipping processes. So wherever you are in the world, your Forge World orders will soon be shipping out to you faster than ever – with many orders on their way to you within a matter of hours!
All of these updates will be happening later this month. (Read: Just in time for the Adeptus Titanicus release on the 18th)
Keep an eye on the Forge World Facebook page and sign up the newsletter to be the first to know when the changes come into effect.
In the meantime, the website will still be fully functional as we prepare for these changes to come into effect.
*Admittedly, you’ll have to paint it pretty fast when it arrives…
Yeah. 230 euros (195 or 184 with discounts) is still a crazy amount of money to put in. I was told that "GM edition is not for everyone, but the most diehard fans. It's like when you buy a regular car, and you buy a Ferrari"
I just want the dice, man :( Anyone wants the rest, for cheapers?
Gitzbitah wrote: lololol Oh Thargrim, this is GW. If it doesn't sell it will just be quietly retired for a while, then they'll find some stock in a 'warehouse' for a limited release once demand spikes again.
Look at the posters here- dakkadakka's their target market. I'd say for every person declaring I'm out, there's one declaring they're all in and two saying they'll just wait until xmas. At this price point, I think they're going to see great success even if only a third of the interested parties purchase immediately.
Oh I was going to post that I was thinking the game would be dead and gone in 10 years or probably less. But I didn't want to seem melodramatic. I guess they made sure to price it high enough that even if it doesn't sell great they should still pull in a tad bit of money.
CragHack wrote: Yeah. 230 euros (195 or 184 with discounts) is still a crazy amount of money to put in. I was told that "GM edition is not for everyone, but the most diehard fans. It's like when you buy a regular car, and you buy a Ferrari"
I just want the dice, man :( Anyone wants the rest, for cheapers?
How quickly the 1000 sell out, if at all, will be an excellent barometer.
They've had their finger burned on LE stuff before, Codexes went from blinking out of existence to taking days, then even weeks, then probably not selling out at all, through 6th/7th, and many BLLE novels did similar.
If this is a successful release, the coin copies will go in minutes, maybe hours at worst.
I was doing some careful reading and the weapons are gonna be pretty much 100% optional. as our weapons configs are going to be tied to cards on the control terminal. so without modeling for it, it'll be clear what each titan is carrying.
By that logic the models are optional too, as you can just glue soda cans etc. on the bases...
Yeah. 230 euros (195 or 184 with discounts) is still a crazy amount of money to put in. I was told that "GM edition is not for everyone, but the most diehard fans. It's like when you buy a regular car, and you buy a Ferrari"
But a Ferrari gives you significantly more than a toyota, Horsepower, Performance, Style. The Warlords in AT are significantly smaller with less options than a knight. They are not somehow better models, just different models.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: I think 110 USD per Warlord would be easier to swallow if there was more than one weapon load out for the thing.
This is part of it too. The cost we're being given is the entry cost on model. There are still all the wonderful weapons they can be armed with that will cost us more. Though if they're similar to the Necromunda gangs it won't be to bad. Assuming FW doesn't get the US pricing upgrade and it goes flat exchange rate but that's unlikely (see recent warhammer-community article for details).
I was doing some careful reading and the weapons are gonna be pretty much 100% optional. as our weapons configs are going to be tied to cards on the control terminal. so without modeling for it, it'll be clear what each titan is carrying.
And when you have 2 warlord/reaver with dif weapons how you plan to identify?
CragHack wrote: I was told that "GM edition is not for everyone, but the most diehard fans.
Yeah. Because, as we all know, the regular gamers just want the rulebook. It's only the 'diehard' fans who actually want models to play the game with...
Man, blew my monthly budget on Kill Team, don't think I can really stretch to the GM edition this month. Will probably pick up a warlord and the other titans when they're released though, just to they can look all pretty on a shelf.
Fango wrote: You’ll soon be able to pay in your local currency, rather than having to use British Pounds. (Read: You soon will be paying for your stuff on Forgeworld's site with the exact same markup you pay on standard GW products in your country)
CragHack wrote: Yeah. 230 euros (195 or 184 with discounts) is still a crazy amount of money to put in. I was told that "GM edition is not for everyone, but the most diehard fans. It's like when you buy a regular car, and you buy a Ferrari"
I just want the dice, man :( Anyone wants the rest, for cheapers?
Problem being without that you will generally end up buying same for more anyway. You can skip terrain i guess if you scratch build and knights if they suck ass but that's about it
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azreal13 wrote: Dunno, maybe you could find some sort of fluid that comes in different colours that dries hard when spread over the model in thin layers?
Generally people play one titan legion so colors will be uniform.
Might just as wel' with soda cans if appearance doesn#t matter
CragHack wrote: Yeah. 230 euros (195 or 184 with discounts) is still a crazy amount of money to put in. I was told that "GM edition is not for everyone, but the most diehard fans. It's like when you buy a regular car, and you buy a Ferrari"
I just want the dice, man :( Anyone wants the rest, for cheapers?
Problem being without that you will generally end up buying same for more anyway. You can skip terrain i guess if you scratch build and knights if they suck ass but that's about it
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azreal13 wrote: Dunno, maybe you could find some sort of fluid that comes in different colours that dries hard when spread over the model in thin layers?
Generally people play one titan legion so colors will be uniform.
Might just as wel' with soda cans if appearance doesn#t matter
Gothic script numerals and name scrolls. Not very hard, or even terribly original.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: I think 110 USD per Warlord would be easier to swallow if there was more than one weapon load out for the thing.
This is part of it too. The cost we're being given is the entry cost on model. There are still all the wonderful weapons they can be armed with that will cost us more. Though if they're similar to the Necromunda gangs it won't be to bad. Assuming FW doesn't get the US pricing upgrade and it goes flat exchange rate but that's unlikely (see recent warhammer-community article for details).
I was doing some careful reading and the weapons are gonna be pretty much 100% optional. as our weapons configs are going to be tied to cards on the control terminal. so without modeling for it, it'll be clear what each titan is carrying.
And when you have 2 warlord/reaver with dif weapons how you plan to identify?
Heraldry
each titan has it's own uniqe one so that's certainly doable. keep in mind that this game is designed around a dozen minis on the table total for a largish game, keeping track of what's what in that enviroment isn't that hard. Battletech players do it all the time. Yes unique weapons configs etc would be nice, but would you really want another 20 bucks added to a warlord titan's already high price tag?
Azreal13 wrote: Dunno, maybe you could find some sort of fluid that comes in different colours that dries hard when spread over the model in thin layers?
Generally people play one titan legion so colors will be uniform.
Difficult to see how people generally do anything for a game that's been offficially dead for over a decade, but ok. Then again, people manage to find ways to distinguish squads in 40K when they've got dozens of models in identical livery all the time, so perhaps you need to up your dose of imagination pills?
Might just as wel' with soda cans if appearance doesn#t matter
Yeah. Because, as we all know, the regular gamers just want the rulebook. It's only the 'diehard' fans who actually want models to play the game with...
.
You know the models are available separately, there's no need to be flippant.
The GME is for people who want to own 2 Warlords. However that won't apply to every player, in the same way that not everyone wants to start 40k by picking up two Land Raiders in their first box.
The GME is for people who want to own 2 Warlords. However that won't apply to every player, in the same way that not everyone wants to start 40k by picking up two Land Raiders in their first box.
Except the Land Raider is a marginal at best heavy transport. The Warlord is THE Core unit of the game as stated by the developers. Its more like picking up two required tactical squads in a single box.
The GME is for people who want to own 2 Warlords. However that won't apply to every player, in the same way that not everyone wants to start 40k by picking up two Land Raiders in their first box.
Sure, many players will only want one Warlord, rather than two. So they can skip the GM edition, and buy the Rules box and the corresponding terrain and miniatures... which works out more expensive than buying the GM edition with its extra Warlord.
The GM edition isn't for 'diehard' fans at all. It's for people who want everything that they need to play in one purchase, preferably with a discount for buying it all in one go. Sort of like a starter set.
Yeah. Because, as we all know, the regular gamers just want the rulebook. It's only the 'diehard' fans who actually want models to play the game with...
.
You know the models are available separately, there's no need to be flippant.
The GME is for people who want to own 2 Warlords. However that won't apply to every player, in the same way that not everyone wants to start 40k by picking up two Land Raiders in their first box.
Sure. But 1 unit games will grow old really fast and for example remove point of manourering. You seem to think warlord here is like warlord in 40k, 1 i# all you need. In practice you will want more of the core unit of the game.
The GME is for people who want to own 2 Warlords. However that won't apply to every player, in the same way that not everyone wants to start 40k by picking up two Land Raiders in their first box.
Except the Land Raider is a marginal at best heavy transport. The Warlord is THE Core unit of the game as stated by the developers. Its more like picking up two required tactical squads in a single box.
How many cores does an apple have?
I suspect by core in this case the warlord is going to be the big single unit you build the rest of your force to support.
The GME is for people who want to own 2 Warlords. However that won't apply to every player, in the same way that not everyone wants to start 40k by picking up two Land Raiders in their first box.
Except the Land Raider is a marginal at best heavy transport. The Warlord is THE Core unit of the game as stated by the developers. Its more like picking up two required tactical squads in a single box.
No, that's not an accurate comparison. Otherwise, the maniple packs would all have multiple Warlords. And we already know that's not true.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Plus there's the maniple that previewed on Warhammer TV that showed one Reaver and 2-4 Warhounds.
A couple of things that may have been missed in all the kerfuffle. The rules pack comes with two Warlord, two Reaver, two warhound, and two knight terminal cards. Interestingly it also comes with two reference sheets. In terms of actually playing the game it looks like it has been designed to only need one rules pack unless you are trying to stage pretty big fights.
As for buying just the rules, I have 2 epic warlords, 2 reavers, 2 warhounds and a dozen Knights at home. If I divide all THW measurements by 2 and play on a 2 by 2 table, I could easily play the game without buying a single mini.
As for the new big minis, the lack of weapon options is a disappointment, but the posability is a big step up from the 40k Knights. You could have two warlords and easily tell them apart just by the pose without having to do any conversion work.
I think these kits will sell a lot just as collectors items. There is a beautifully painted Reaver that I saw on twitter the other day that really made me want to buy one.
tneva82 wrote: In practice you will want more of the core unit of the game.
Warlord isn't land raider. It's tactical squad
Completely untrue. Warlords are an iconic unit for the artwork, not a core one in the game. They have previewed rules for titan maniples with a max of 1 or zero Warlords. You have the option to field multiple, but it's absolutely not required or expected.
That is why I used the land raider comparison. They're large kits that can be useful but definitely aren't essential.
Completely untrue. Warlords are a poster unit, not a core one.They have previewed rules for titan maniples with a max of 1 or zero Warlords. You have the option to field multiple, but it's absolutely not required or expected.
That is why I used the land raider comparison. They're large kits can ve useful but aren't a core army requirement.
While you are technically correct it is not required to have a Warlord. Technically is the worst way to be correct. Warlords are the core units of the Titan legions and almost everyone who plays will want to have multiple. Just like you could play Space Marines without any actual Space Marines you could play AT and never field one Warlords. But that doesn't make them not the core unit. Like I said before LR are a mediocre heavy transport, not the core, poster boy unit of the entire game. Warlords are the core poster boy unit of the entire game. How many Reavers and Warhounds are going to be available for sale on day 1?
Well, they did say it could easily be a rare game that doesn't include at least one Warlord in a force.
I can see times where you want a skirmishing force of Reavers and Warhounds, but I think most battlelines would at least want a Warlord as an anchor, just because of all the weapons and damage soak it can bring to bear. Its the Imperial Star Destroyer of titans.
I could see myself getting 'one' if I get into the game, as a centerpiece.
The warlords are definitely the main unit of the game. They are basically the rock, a platform around which all your other forces operate and maneuver. You could go for the more agile maniple that is 1 reaver 4 warhounds but how balanced that will be remains to be seen. Plus of course they will do lucius pattern bits, so if you care at all about that you need to have a spare warlord unbuilt. I definitely don't think you need more than 2-3 warlords, but two is very ideal.
Ugh, so for a buy in I have to purchase £90's worth of stuff, close to £200 if I want to play a full game? No thanks, these prices are insane. Especially the Knights - £6 per model for 28mm sized units? Having a laugh much?
What would be the bare minimum that a single person would have to buy in order to play a pick up game against another person? The rules and the 3 knights? Rules and a warlord? Rules, warlord, and knights?
GW is not particularly clear about what a non-GME player would need to get, nor how they would grow into whatever a full game would look like (I'm still not clear what that looks like)
There was a statement about how during development they thought they'd be expensive resin models, so they wanted to make it that a 1v1 warlord on warlord would still be an interesting fight.
Sqorgar wrote: What would be the bare minimum that a single person would have to buy in order to play a pick up game against another person? The rules and the 3 knights? Rules and a warlord? Rules, warlord, and knights?
GW is not particularly clear about what a non-GME player would need to get, nor how they would grow into whatever a full game would look like (I'm still not clear what that looks like)
Bare minimum is probably the Rulebook, One titan of some standing (really hope Warhounds make it out of the gate on time), and maybe some knights, as well as terminals? I could see just solo reaver/warhound titan battles being for learning the mechanics more easily than having to manipulate several knights along side a warlord.
Aside from that, the price of the warlord and event he rules box itself makes me hesitate. I'll probably pick up a reaver and a warhound to collect. Maybe down the road, if the game sticks around, I'll buy a little more. Right now it's a pretty steep investment for a brand new game when I'm already invested in [counting on fingers] 4 other GW products/game systems? If Battlefleet Gothic is much the same when it comes out, I dont' know if I'll pick that up....
master of ordinance wrote: Ugh, so for a buy in I have to purchase £90's worth of stuff, close to £200 if I want to play a full game? No thanks, these prices are insane. Especially the Knights - £6 per model for 28mm sized units? Having a laugh much?
that's about the price a Battlemech mini goes for.
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Sqorgar wrote: What would be the bare minimum that a single person would have to buy in order to play a pick up game against another person? The rules and the 3 knights? Rules and a warlord? Rules, warlord, and knights?
GW is not particularly clear about what a non-GME player would need to get, nor how they would grow into whatever a full game would look like (I'm still not clear what that looks like)
the rules and a soda can if you're REAAALY on a budget.
Put me firmly in the 'I was excited and definitley in, but after those prices I'll see how many people pick it up and if I can get a cheap-o used set' camp.
I mean, $280 is crazy. Seriously crazy. And it seems to still be the best way to buy in.
Sqorgar wrote: What would be the bare minimum that a single person would have to buy in order to play a pick up game against another person? The rules and the 3 knights? Rules and a warlord? Rules, warlord, and knights?
GW is not particularly clear about what a non-GME player would need to get, nor how they would grow into whatever a full game would look like (I'm still not clear what that looks like)
the rules and a soda can if you're REAAALY on a budget.
If I show up to a pick up game with a can of soda, I will have earned whatever beating they give me.
I think you could do the rules pack and do 3 knights vs 3 knights. It's going to be a quick and not as exciting game. But it technically can be done. You'd be missing out on the management of the titans command terminal and stuff.
I wonder if someone were to wait a bit, and do a rules pack, and each player picks up a warhound pack. I think in a small game a warhound vs a warhound could be pretty interesting and wild with how agile they will be. And then from there add 3-6 knights per side. Going by how the pricing on the game appears to be i'm not counting on the reaver or warhounds to be at a reasonable price either.
Sqorgar wrote: What would be the bare minimum that a single person would have to buy in order to play a pick up game against another person? The rules and the 3 knights? Rules and a warlord? Rules, warlord, and knights?
GW is not particularly clear about what a non-GME player would need to get, nor how they would grow into whatever a full game would look like (I'm still not clear what that looks like)
the rules and a soda can if you're REAAALY on a budget.
If I show up to a pick up game with a can of soda, I will have earned whatever beating they give me.
Heh it's not ideal no. Still if you're uncertain about the game I'd definatly ask to demo it before investing, I think if I was on a budget (I'm not I've set eneugh money aside to get the GM edition and intend to myself) I'd get the rules and a warlord. I got a feeling that a Knight Banner proably won't quite cut it by itself.
Thargrim wrote: I think you could do the rules pack and do 3 knights vs 3 knights. It's going to be a quick and not as exciting game. But it technically can be done. You'd be missing out on the management of the titans command terminal and stuff.
But is that something that will get me a pick up game? Won't that be like showing up to Warmachine with just a battle box, where you won't a game, but might get a few gentle pats on the head because it's cute when you try?
Thargrim wrote: I think you could do the rules pack and do 3 knights vs 3 knights. It's going to be a quick and not as exciting game. But it technically can be done. You'd be missing out on the management of the titans command terminal and stuff.
But is that something that will get me a pick up game? Won't that be like showing up to Warmachine with just a battle box, where you won't a game, but might get a few gentle pats on the head because it's cute when you try?
I'd talk to the people you might be playing this with, cause at this price it doesn't look like the type of game where you'd go into a store and get pick up games. 3 knights vs 3 knights would definitely be like barely dipping your toes in, and be kinda silly so yep. But if everyone you plan on playing with is in consensus about starting small then I don't see a big issue.
GW's lost their collective minds with this pricing, especially considering the whole 'Buy part of the rules now, some more every four months forever' scheme they're attempting. I thought Killteam was a weak enough product, game content-wise, that I'd be hard pressed to spend similar money on Titanicus...but close to *double*? No chance.
This product seems doomed to fail, I cannot understand the choices, here.
master of ordinance wrote: Ugh, so for a buy in I have to purchase £90's worth of stuff, close to £200 if I want to play a full game? No thanks, these prices are insane. Especially the Knights - £6 per model for 28mm sized units? Having a laugh much?
that's about the price a Battlemech mini goes for.
Except 4 of those Battletech minis is an army whereas 6 Knights is a supplementary support force. Its about the value im getting for that money.
Yeah the GME and AT prices overall are a buzz kill for sure.
If I am not mistaken, a la carte is $390 USD. So basically the GME is just over 25% off RRP. So it appears there is no question the GME discount ends up being definitely inferior to the "discount" seen with the other recent system launch boxes, e.g. Necromunda, Dark Imperium, Soul Storm, and recently Kill Team.
When we consider that this is a niche system that will always be secondary and essentially separate from GW's current core lines, I can start to understand GW's challenge with pricing AT and the GME. The other part that I think is contributing to the sticker shock is the timing. The recent Kill Team rollout has been full of great value (vis a vis historical pricing). Of course it had the advantage of using many already established kits along with its synergy with GW's flagship product so GW could afford to price Kill Team aggressively. Throw in possibly the fact that we maybe collectively suffering release fatigue (e.g. Imperial Knights, AoS 2.0, Kill Team) and the cost differential for the GME appears to be overwhelming out of balance with GW's other recent releases. With this in mind, I think I can "understand" the challenge GW had in pricing the GME and the overall AT line and its accpetance by the GW core customer base. IMHO the AT rule set appears to be comparable value when compared to the price of the core books for the other systems. So what appears to be holding AT back is the cost of the minis and scenery which when reviewed in isolation appears to be priced in a range for similar kits (i.e. # of sprues, complexity, etc.)
None of this poor attempt at GW apologetics though changes the reality for many, and that is that anecdotally the price for AT is a definite barrier to entry for many of GW's core customers who ironically are who AT is squarely aimed at.
Needless to say, expect only to see one GME (if any) and at best two copies of each of the other AT launch products per GW store (which has been the trend at my local GW for all new releases the last few months ). This of course will help create an impression of low availability due to unseen high demand regardless of how well pre-orders do. If my suspicions are right and the system does not move well, then they already have the established process of moving the remaining product to the last chance to buy wall within a month of the release and then finally back to warehouse to wither away in quite ignominy and thus avoiding the embarrassment of another Dreadfleet. The Reaver will get a web only release and we will never see the warhound. However, GW will recover quickly (and we will forget AT) when the next Primarch and narritive arc is announced.
So it appears there is no question the GME discount ends up being definitely inferior to the "discount" seen with the other recent system launch boxes, e.g. Necromunda,
Necromunda box doesn't give you any discount in term of plastic value. You actually lose money. The value money is from those 2d cardboard tiles, which might be worthless if you don't want to play 2d Necromunda.
So it appears there is no question the GME discount ends up being definitely inferior to the "discount" seen with the other recent system launch boxes, e.g. Necromunda,
The value money is from those 2d cardboard tiles,
I agree the Necromunda box provides additional value with the cardboard tiles along with the bulkhead doors, barricades, objectives, faction cards, tokens, dice, etc. which if purchased a la carte would cost somewhere near $180 USD compared to the current RRP. But then again value will always be in the eye of the beholder.
I did the maths and if you count all the cardboard as they are priced individually both bloodbowl and Necromunda have a similar percentage discount to Adeptus Titanicus.
I think the thing that has surprised me is how surprised people are by the price. The change in the scale was announced two years ago. The level of the discount was announced at Warhammerfest 3 months ago. (one Warlord) People seem to have been expecting the Warlord to come out for less than £50 comparing them to armiger Knights even though they are both thinner and shorter than the Warlord.
GW repeatedly said this is their most expensive box set but optimistic players seemed to think that they can't possibly mean that.
It is being pitched as a crunchy old school game and marketed to the kind of Horus Heresy player used to paying £175 for a single cerestus knight.
I am curious how many people in this thread have bought one of those big forgeworld kits. It might tell us whether the dakka crowd really is gw's target market.
For the record, the most expensive GW thing I have ever bought was the Archaon model for £100 and I am on the cusp with this. It is more expensive than I hoped, but not more than I expected.
Chikout wrote: I did the maths and if you count all the cardboard as they are priced individually both bloodbowl and Necromunda have a similar percentage discount to Adeptus Titanicus.
I think the thing that has surprised me is how surprised people are by the price. The change in the scale was announced two years ago. The level of the discount was announced at Warhammerfest 3 months ago. (one Warlord) People seem to have been expecting the Warlord to come out for less than £50 comparing them to armiger Knights even though they are both thinner and shorter than the Warlord.
GW repeatedly said this is their most expensive box set but optimistic players seemed to think that they can't possibly mean that.
It is being pitched as a crunchy old school game and marketed to the kind of Horus Heresy player used to paying £175 for a single cerestus knight.
I am curious how many people in this thread have bought one of those big forgeworld kits. It might tell us whether the dakka crowd really is gw's target market.
For the record, the most expensive GW thing I have ever bought was the Archaon model for £100 and I am on the cusp with this. It is more expensive than I hoped, but not more than I expected.
Yeah, it's odd. I mean I was hoping for £150 and it was 10% extra.
What were people that think this is massively priced hoping for? I don't understand the surprise.
I suspect that for most it's more disappointment at having the high price confirmed, rather than surprise.
By GW standards, the price is in line. But it's going to be prohibitively expensive for many of us, and it's disappointing that this might not have been the case of GW had made different decisions during development... Like sticking with the original scale, and finding a more cost effective way of including terrain.
Or maybe people don't feel like paying too much for basicly a mirror match between two titan. Now if you had something like 3 small titan with different loadout for each side that'd actually look like a fun game people could play for a while without investing more.
I was totally expecting to get the big box but that's gonna hurt in Aussie dollars. And I am not convinced I need 6 knights or a second warlord, especially when the warlord is only armed the same as the first. I guess I'll be looking at just getting the rules and a warlord box to start.
I am relieved it is eventually not more than £175 for the GME, although it remains a lot of money, there is no disputing that.
I think most people were kind of misled by their perception of the unboxing video statement from a GW staff that it would be "the best value ever".
My initial reaction was like "cool, huge discount ahead" (thinking along the lines of Dark Imperium or Kill Team style values) but eventually it is not. Surprised? Not really but I did a lot of number crunching and scenarios.
I tried to figure out what that specific statement would mean based on the then available info: "between £5 and £200", "definitely less than £200", "most expensive boxed game", "best value ever", and "one free warlord". Not easy when you have no price info at all. So various hypothesis and updates whenever a new piece of info or rumour pops up.
In the end, from the £, US$ and € prices that have been posted, when comparing to buy the components individually and with the terrain in the GME being equivalent to 1/2 a civitas imperialis sector box the GME seems to give discounts of respectively
28% in £
30% in US$
27% in €
Nice but not tremendous ...
As far as Forgeworld kits are concerned I didn't bought any since the days of Epic (e.g. cathedral, warhound scout titans, tau, ...) and BFG (e.g. eldar spire, space marines & grey knights ships).
Sure, it can be too expensive for people - I doubt I'll get it myself. But people are surprised and angry at the price :/ It was always going to be something like this.
At least it's available everywhere so you can easily get 20% off
Chopstick wrote: Or maybe people don't feel like paying too much for basicly a mirror match between two titan. Now if you had something like 3 small titan with different loadout for each side that'd actually look like a fun game people could play for a while without investing more.
it looks like you'll be able to swap your weapons up between cards, and at the way the game works I suspect that people might fast develop differant preferances
Just stick to 3mm model, cheap as hell and tiny. Whilst I really love those Warlord models, they feel a bit big, almost like having to play a big table just for a basic game.
Mr_Rose wrote: Where was everyone twenty pages ago when we all thought it was £180?
I'm not gonna lie I was typing that into google and converting that to USD getting less than 240 bucks thinking I was good. I wasn't even thinking about markups and exchange rates and stuff that i'm not particularly wizened up to.
Vorian wrote: Sure, it can be too expensive for people - I doubt I'll get it myself. But people are surprised and angry at the price :/ It was always going to be something like this.
At least it's available everywhere so you can easily get 20% off
Haven't seen angry here. Disappointed? Sure, but I would not characterize people (not here, at least) as "angry".
Well, it's certainly not cheap, but neither is it as bad as I feared it might be.
This game was never going to be for the faint of heart - I suspect the real target audience for the Grand Matter set is the grognards who fondly remember past editions.
Regardless, for me personally, a Grand Master set plus a Civitas Imperialis Sector will give me everything I need for the game excepting a Reaver and a few Warhound's when they come out.
Yup. I'm pricing up two full armies for Lion Rampant at the moment - together they should cost me aroud £80 or so. Kind of puts it all in perspective!
Indeed. And you'll probably get more use out of it to. And use it in multiple systems. Like frostgrave or numerous osprey games.
Value for money.
That's fine... whereas I wouldn't consider a historical army and a titan maniple to be interchangeable, and I honestly fail to see who would, unless they weren't very interested to begin with.
That's fine... whereas I wouldn't consider a historical army and a titan maniple to be interchangeable, and I honestly fail to see who would, unless they weren't very interested to begin with.
Well most of us have more than one interest. AT was just one of those. Given its price, and the availability and pricing of alternative giant stompy robot games, I don't think its going to get a lot of traction around here. Many people agree with me about their local areas. It may do great over all. It may flop. But that isn't what sells it to me. What sells it to me is: Will I get enough fun out of it to be worth the price? Or will I get more fun putting those dollars somewhere else? Currently I'm leaning towards investing my time and money somewhere else. I may pick up a single Reaver to put in the Cabinet next to the big Reaver. But buy the game.... nope. If I can get it from a UK discounter with reasonable shipping, that might change things. But its a big box and GW doesn't like to let people pay real world exchange rates, so the odds of that are very slim.
At £175 (roughly $340 NZ$heep) I would consider buying it. But for $435 NZ$heep (like the £160 Slaughter Troupe) the answer is probably no. £235 is a lot. That is like my share of 3 weeks rent.
Tygre wrote: At £175 (roughly $340 NZ$heep) I would consider buying it. But for $435 NZ$heep (like the £160 Slaughter Troupe) the answer is probably no. £235 is a lot. That is like my share of 3 weeks rent.
the set you compare with is not the most recent, and GW exchange rates are not consistent across the board, I would not be surprised to see it around NZ$ 580 (look at the Cawdor gang which is amongst the most recent releases £25 vs NZ$83)
This game is really bringing out the worst in some people, it seems. Or rather, the price and / or the policies applied by GW that led to it. I'm seeing some nasty exchanges between pro and anti camps out there on the interwebs.
I'd link to some from an ATFB group I'd joined - but I was banned for suggesting people have a right to express themselves, and it'd be nice if we all got along for a change.
I'm still in the market for this, now that the wave-motion gun-like blast of sticker-shock is beginning to echo off into the distance. But I can understand why many are pulling the plug.
My big concern is if this backlash will leave the game stillborn. Hopefully my fears will prove ill-founded, but I do wonder if GW have really missed the gaming community's vibe on this one.
On slightly less speculative matters - do we have a release date for weapons upgrade sets? And what can we expect to see in such a set?
Macrossmartin wrote: On slightly less speculative matters - do we have a release date for weapons upgrade sets? And what can we expect to see in such a set?
The weapon cards that come with the rules cover all the planned add-ons, so you'll be able to see the full list when people start getting a hold of the game. With Warhammerfest Europe scheduled for the same day AT is released, I wouldn't be surprised to see GW reveal what's next there.
Macrossmartin wrote: This game is really bringing out the worst in some people, it seems. Or rather, the price and / or the policies applied by GW that led to it. I'm seeing some nasty exchanges between pro and anti camps out there on the interwebs.
I'd link to some from an ATFB group I'd joined - but I was banned for suggesting people have a right to express themselves, and it'd be nice if we all got along for a change.
I'm still in the market for this, now that the wave-motion gun-like blast of sticker-shock is beginning to echo off into the distance. But I can understand why many are pulling the plug.
My big concern is if this backlash will leave the game stillborn. Hopefully my fears will prove ill-founded, but I do wonder if GW have really missed the gaming community's vibe on this one.
On slightly less speculative matters - do we have a release date for weapons upgrade sets? And what can we expect to see in such a set?
Honestly it boils down to it was foolish to shove terrain into the big set, thus pushing it’s total discount to a threshold where it still costs a little more than the models that come in the box.
Terrain for a game is a much more specialised niche than models for a game. Most people play at stores or clubs and don’t have to worry much about that.
I can't help but feel terrain is a really important part of the game. After all, if you read all the Titan-related stuff (Titanicus et al) it's terrain that makes it possible for Warhounds to take down Reavers and Warlords.
I think it's two things, first of all there are some people bitterly dissappointed that the cost of the GM box will make getting into AT hard, that said money and whats expensive is relative, some people can afford it others can't. That said I think once AT comes out we'll see people well.. adapting, reivers and warhounds aren't out this month anyway so really until they do AT'll be in it's infancy. people with a smaller hobby budget each month will have some time to build up slowly.
in addition to people who are just dissappointed and seeing something cool snatched from them due to dollar cost you have the useal "does nothing but complain about GW" crowd on the internet.
Honestly it boils down to it was foolish to shove terrain into the big set, thus pushing it’s total discount to a threshold where it still costs a little more than the models that come in the box.
Terrain for a game is a much more specialised niche than models for a game. Most people play at stores or clubs and don’t have to worry much about that.
I think it really boils down to mismanaging people's expectations.
I personally find the included terrain a nice touch. GME box is also a box that allows you to buy everything from AT first wave in a single shot.
Of course, without the terrain the cost of the box would likely have been lower. With other models too maybe. There are so many variations and so many preferences/tastes out there.
At that price... Nah thanks, I am going for BattleTech instead.
Maybe, if I ever have money to spare, I will start to slowly build up an AT force. But that grandmaster box is a big no.
But these are all consistent GW prices. It's not like they are an outlier, it's firmly in the range you'd expect.
We can all have our feelings about if that's too expensive, but with the way their finances are exploding it's hard to make a case for them being wrong
Honestly it boils down to it was foolish to shove terrain into the big set, thus pushing it’s total discount to a threshold where it still costs a little more than the models that come in the box.
Terrain for a game is a much more specialised niche than models for a game. Most people play at stores or clubs and don’t have to worry much about that.
The terrain is also a bit meh. Recent 40K terrain has been really amazing and interesting, this is basically just boxes stacked on each other.
The terrain is also a bit meh. Recent 40K terrain has been really amazing and interesting, this is basically just boxes stacked on each other.
Agreed, the recent 40K terrain is amazing, I refrained hard, very hard, from buying the kill team terrain, but with AT release close and funding limited …
Just boxes stacked on each other or elements for conversion. On the French epic community forum there are a couple of pictures from guys doing absolutely amazing buildings using various elements, including 40k terrain (e.g. a refinery using the sector Mechanicus stuff).
And I believe that we haven't seen the last of AT terrain.
I think it's two things, first of all there are some people bitterly dissappointed that the cost of the GM box will make getting into AT hard, that said money and whats expensive is relative, some people can afford it others can't. That said I think once AT comes out we'll see people well.. adapting, reivers and warhounds aren't out this month anyway so really until they do AT'll be in it's infancy. people with a smaller hobby budget each month will have some time to build up slowly.
in addition to people who are just dissappointed and seeing something cool snatched from them due to dollar cost you have the useal "does nothing but complain about GW" crowd on the internet.
I think some people are deluding themselves when others say they don't see the value. Its not about money or affording it, I have plenty of money and can afford it. Its value. I don't see the value as being any where near as high as the cost. I don't see the value in the base kits. Its not the big box is too expensive. I do see a lot of people falling for basic marketing. This box isn't for everybody, its only for discerning customers. That line is as old as salesmen.
Honestly it boils down to it was foolish to shove terrain into the big set, thus pushing it’s total discount to a threshold where it still costs a little more than the models that come in the box.
Terrain for a game is a much more specialised niche than models for a game. Most people play at stores or clubs and don’t have to worry much about that.
None of the stores here have terrain collections in AT's scale, and unless the game takes off in a massive way, I doubt many will invest in a collection for that small a niche (compared to generic terrain that works for any of 40K, Warmachine, Infinity, etc.). AT players will probably be bringing their own terrain with them to stores and clubs.
Seems to me that your opinion on it depends on what continent you live on.
Europe? Hey that's not so bad.
Americas? Gosh that's a lot
Oceania? HELL NO!
So basically the fault is with you for living in the wrong place.
Anyway I am dying for a let's play on this... want to see someone playing using the Grand Master set and with just one warlord to try and work out how much the actual game interests me.
Honestly it boils down to it was foolish to shove terrain into the big set, thus pushing it’s total discount to a threshold where it still costs a little more than the models that come in the box.
Terrain for a game is a much more specialised niche than models for a game. Most people play at stores or clubs and don’t have to worry much about that.
The terrain is also a bit meh. Recent 40K terrain has been really amazing and interesting, this is basically just boxes stacked on each other.
Exactly!
The included terrain is kind of meh, and there's no where near enough of it in the box for a proper city table, so all it really accomplishes is pushing up the overall price of the box without really helping increase the 'value' or 'satisfaction' factor!
They could have left the terrain out, lowered the price a bit.
Europe? Hey that's not so bad.
Americas? Gosh that's a lot
Oceania? HELL NO!
Or GW for not realizing that exchange rates have changed and forcing us to pay 8 year old exchange rates.
But why would they price based on currency fluctuations? They charge what they think they can in a given market.
If we walk of the no deal Brexit cliff and our currency devalues massively, it doesn't really affect what you're willing to pay in your local currency.
International Orders are good with the Loot Group, if peeps want to explore that possibility (between online discount and the already cheaper cost, it usually offsets the postage).
I’m genuinely torn myself. Definitely want in, and I could stretch to the big box. But I just can’t make my mind up whether to take that plunge, or space it out with lower cost purchases over a few months?
Can I just say that... in one page of posts, the Dakka community has restored my belief that it is possible for wargamers to conduct themselves intelligently and thoughtfully in debate and discussion. Even when GW pricing is involved. Nice work, folks.
AT will be my first venture back into the 'GW hobby' in over a decade. I was starting to wonder what I'd gotten myself into...
Have to agree on the 'meh-ness' of the terrain. I'm thinking of sculpting some turrets, steeples, domes etc that can be dropped on top to add height and variety. Otherwise, its out with the lasercutter.
Or GW not realizing they have been getting the exchange rate wrong for their entire 40+ year history.
Dude they have quadrupled their profits from ~15m to >70m in two years, and their IP is exploding in popularity and sales.
They are better at business than you or I. Yes, they might have overcooked it for this boxed set but they have done it based on a much more detailed understanding of their sales landscape than we have.
I’m genuinely torn myself. Definitely want in, and I could stretch to the big box. But I just can’t make my mind up whether to take that plunge, or space it out with lower cost purchases over a few months?
This is where I am. Don't want to jump in too early and find there's no local scene... but also want the GM set
I don't know if I want two Warlords in the long term, but having two means I have a built in opponent by letting someone else use my models. My concern is the false economy of spending £150 over a longer time on slightly less nice stuff and having no opponent at all.
Justyn wrote: I do see a lot of people falling for basic marketing. This box isn't for everybody, its only for discerning customers. That line is as old as salesmen.
Funny thing is, GW isn't even touting that line. It's us making that up, to justify spending over €200 on under a dozen miniatures
The Australians are paying truly obscene prices. But I guess they should have thought of that before they put their thieving paws on Trevalyan's corn.
But why would they price based on currency fluctuations? They charge what they think they can in a given market.
If we walk of the no deal Brexit cliff and our currency devalues massively, it doesn't really affect what you're willing to pay in your local currency.
That sounds great and all. But the reality is I might be willing to pay what they charge in other countries, but not what they are charging in mine. And being a reasonably intelligent person I get even more incensed that they feel they can charge me more simply because I live here.
But why would they price based on currency fluctuations? They charge what they think they can in a given market.
If we walk of the no deal Brexit cliff and our currency devalues massively, it doesn't really affect what you're willing to pay in your local currency.
That sounds great and all. But the reality is I might be willing to pay what they charge in other countries, but not what they are charging in mine. And being a reasonably intelligent person I get even more incensed that they feel they can charge me more simply because I live here.
Sure, I would buy more things if they were cheaper too - but a company will price to get maximum return on their investment.
You are still getting charged what you were before, we've just decided to gimp our economy so when you compare across to us it looks worse.
Believe me, you are getting the better part of that deal.
Chikout wrote: A couple of things that may have been missed in all the kerfuffle. The rules pack comes with two Warlord, two Reaver, two warhound, and two knight terminal cards. Interestingly it also comes with two reference sheets. In terms of actually playing the game it looks like it has been designed to only need one rules pack unless you are trying to stage pretty big fights.
As for buying just the rules, I have 2 epic warlords, 2 reavers, 2 warhounds and a dozen Knights at home. If I divide all THW measurements by 2 and play on a 2 by 2 table, I could easily play the game without buying a single mini.
As for the new big minis, the lack of weapon options is a disappointment, but the posability is a big step up from the 40k Knights. You could have two warlords and easily tell them apart just by the pose without having to do any conversion work.
I think these kits will sell a lot just as collectors items. There is a beautifully painted Reaver that I saw on twitter the other day that really made me want to buy one.
Hi, do you have other angles on this? I did a reverse search but no luck.
Chikout wrote: I did the maths and if you count all the cardboard as they are priced individually both bloodbowl and Necromunda have a similar percentage discount to Adeptus Titanicus.
I think the thing that has surprised me is how surprised people are by the price. The change in the scale was announced two years ago. The level of the discount was announced at Warhammerfest 3 months ago. (one Warlord) People seem to have been expecting the Warlord to come out for less than £50 comparing them to armiger Knights even though they are both thinner and shorter than the Warlord.
GW repeatedly said this is their most expensive box set but optimistic players seemed to think that they can't possibly mean that.
It is being pitched as a crunchy old school game and marketed to the kind of Horus Heresy player used to paying £175 for a single cerestus knight.
I am curious how many people in this thread have bought one of those big forgeworld kits. It might tell us whether the dakka crowd really is gw's target market.
For the record, the most expensive GW thing I have ever bought was the Archaon model for £100 and I am on the cusp with this. It is more expensive than I hoped, but not more than I expected.
Yeah, it's odd. I mean I was hoping for £150 and it was 10% extra.
What were people that think this is massively priced hoping for? I don't understand the surprise.
IKR was almost a two for one, when you factor in terrain, I think.
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Tygre wrote: At £175 (roughly $340 NZ$heep) I would consider buying it. But for $435 NZ$heep (like the £160 Slaughter Troupe) the answer is probably no. £235 is a lot. That is like my share of 3 weeks rent.
So buy this and a tent, that's 4 weeks rent. I'm sure you can suspend your lease for a month and go camping, the NZ countryside is lovely.
Perhaps they are testing to see how high they can go and how the market reacts to it. Their usual starter boxes for something like this are in the 150-160 range with tons more plastic. This isn't designed for the mass market like 40k starter or sigmar starter was, so I can see it being charged more, but this high is a bit much. Even with the places selling 30% off its still about 230 or so shipped.
My thing is its actual value. The models are beautiful, the terrain is "meh" at best. I just don't see it being played often in my area and everyone else around here doesent feel like spending that much on it. Most of us have epic 40k armies though and own some of these already from 3rd party creators so more reason not to get it.
Macrossmartin wrote: This game is really bringing out the worst in some people, it seems. Or rather, the price and / or the policies applied by GW that led to it. I'm seeing some nasty exchanges between pro and anti camps out there on the interwebs.
I'd link to some from an ATFB group I'd joined - but I was banned for suggesting people have a right to express themselves, and it'd be nice if we all got along for a change.
I'm still in the market for this, now that the wave-motion gun-like blast of sticker-shock is beginning to echo off into the distance. But I can understand why many are pulling the plug.
My big concern is if this backlash will leave the game stillborn. Hopefully my fears will prove ill-founded, but I do wonder if GW have really missed the gaming community's vibe on this one.
On slightly less speculative matters - do we have a release date for weapons upgrade sets? And what can we expect to see in such a set?
Honestly it boils down to it was foolish to shove terrain into the big set, thus pushing it’s total discount to a threshold where it still costs a little more than the models that come in the box.
Terrain for a game is a much more specialised niche than models for a game. Most people play at stores or clubs and don’t have to worry much about that.
Agreed. As a painter I don't care for it either. It would have been lovely (for me) if they had just cut out the terrain, and the cost of it, entirely. Then I'd still be looking forward to this.
Sure, I would buy more things if they were cheaper too - but a company will price to get maximum return on their investment.
Of course they will. I would not expect different. GW though has a history of pricing itself higher than that. This to me seems like a case of that. They have done great over the past year for several reasons. One of which was making their box games really good deals. This seems to not be a very good deal to me. Compare it to Knight Renegade, Knight renegade gave a substantial discount on both knights and free terrain on top of that. This gives ... . .. . . free terrain? I know they value the cardboard and dice as well. But that imo is part of the problem.
You are still getting charged what you were before, we've just decided to gimp our economy so when you compare across to us it looks worse.
Sure and like before I try to get the best prices I can. In this case the best price in the US is still more than I see for value. The best price in the UK is something I would pay however.
Believe me, you are getting the better part of that deal.
I mean, we have our own problems here also. They just are different.
It makes me sad that Titanicus will be the alter upon which we signal the GW chaos Gods what is too high a price. It should have been something to do with stormcasts that flops due to expense, not Titanicus.
Adeptus Titanicus and the Horus Heresy have a long and intertwined history. Though the Heresy was first mentioned in the original Warhammer 40,000 rulebook in 1987, it was the following year that Adeptus Titanicus expanded on it and introduced the core of the background you know and love – all as a way to explain battles between two armies of Imperial Titans!
Thirty years later, the new edition of Adeptus Titanicus is returning to the Horus Heresy, once again bringing titanic warfare back to the forefront – and it’s all been done in conjunction with Black Library and Forge World’s Horus Heresy series.
When it was determined that Adeptus Titanicus would be getting a new edition, the Specialist Brands team set to work on figuring out how it would fit into the background. It was clear that there was scope in the existing story for massive clashes between Titan Legions – the Betrayal at Calth and the Battle of Tallarn to name just two.
There was also an opportunity to add new elements to the timelines of the Horus Heresy – including something unique and cataclysmic that would also explain why the Titan Legions of the 41st Millennium are both smaller and rarer than during the Great Crusade.
And so the Great Slaughter at Beta-Garmon and the Titandeath were born.
References to Beta-Garmon were seeded into Forge World’s Horus Heresy series, establishing it as a major cluster of worlds on the path to Terra – a natural stopping point for Horus’ forces before the final battle – and across a variety of Black Library’s Horus Heresy stories, its importance was further emphasised. In Gav Thorpe’s Weregeld (in the Corax anthology), the Raven Guard primarch found out about the Imperial muster at Beta-Garmon – a thread followed up in the audio drama Valerius. Guy Haley’s short story Duty Waits referenced some of the immense battles on that world. And in Wolfsbane, also by Guy, we finally found out the Imperium’s plan for holding and bloodying the traitor forces there.
That all leads to Guy’s latest Horus Heresy novel, Titandeath, coming this December, which will be essential reading for all Adeptus Titanicus players, giving unparalleled insights into the battles at Beta-Garmon. We asked Guy about the creative process behind Titandeath, and he was only too happy to answer.
Guy: One of my favourite aspects of this job is getting to work with other people. I started my professional life as part of a small, creative team, eventually coming to run one in the shape of White Dwarf. Times change. As an author, I work alone, like an aelf wanderer, or a sad lost grot. The flexibility writing gives to my life is beyond worth, but I do hanker after collaboration with others, and when I wrote Titandeath, I got that in spades!
From the beginning, the links between Adeptus Titanicus and Titandeath were strong. Andy Hoare and Owen Barnes placed the game firmly in the Horus Heresy, just like the original. However, nowadays the Heresy era is a vast and detailed setting. As they were working on various war zones and histories of the period, I was writing a book detailing Beta-Garmon, the location of the largest Titan-on-Titan battles ever. It was natural, nay obvious, that we should put our heads together.
As I planned my novel, Andy and Owen kept up a steady stream of information coming to me. Throughout the process we talked often, thrashing out details, working out who was where, when and why. They were nothing but gracious with their toys, incorporating many of my ideas into their background for the Beta-Garmon war zone, and tweaking bits to suit the story I wanted to tell.
When creative people work together like this, the result is always stronger than an individual effort. The result is a Horus Heresy novel more firmly embedded in the gaming side of things than ever before, one that was an absolute pleasure for me to write.
Whether you want to set your games of Adeptus Titanicus during the heart of the Titandeath, or elsewhere in the Horus Heresy timeline, the Adeptus Titanicus rulebook has plenty of story hooks and ideas, as well as narrative scenarios set on Beta-Garmon, Molech and other familiar worlds from the novel series – including Mars itself.
The setting also allows you to customise your Titan Legion and accompanying Knight Houses to your tastes – will you support Horus or remain loyal to the Emperor? Will you and your friends collect different Legios or stage a civil war amongst one? The possibilities are endless – and the Horus Heresy novel series is a great place to look for ideas.
Sure, I would buy more things if they were cheaper too - but a company will price to get maximum return on their investment.
Of course they will. I would not expect different. GW though has a history of pricing itself higher than that. This to me seems like a case of that. They have done great over the past year for several reasons. One of which was making their box games really good deals. This seems to not be a very good deal to me. Compare it to Knight Renegade, Knight renegade gave a substantial discount on both knights and free terrain on top of that. This gives ... . .. . . free terrain? I know they value the cardboard and dice as well. But that imo is part of the problem.
You are still getting charged what you were before, we've just decided to gimp our economy so when you compare across to us it looks worse.
Sure and like before I try to get the best prices I can. In this case the best price in the US is still more than I see for value. The best price in the UK is something I would pay however.
Believe me, you are getting the better part of that deal.
I mean, we have our own problems here also. They just are different.
I think it's important to at least acknowledge that that cardboard is the one of thing GW will have to pay 'standard industry prices' for, it's not something they make themselves like the plastic so they have less margin to cut compared to a 40K starter which 'just' has the rulebook in)
not that it make it any easier if the price is more than you want to pay, but there are some reasons for that price being less of a deal than some other box sets
If people buy into the hype that it is "limited edition" so to say with people having to wait for 2019 for a reprint.... and people buy into this at $290 USD then they have set the stage for beginner box sets for the future by putting out propreganda. Well at $290 for the very limited content in that box set they can stuff it. I hope that others rise up against this price stupidity. If you buy into the bs.... expect the bs to be the new norm.
not that it make it any easier if the price is more than you want to pay, but there are some reasons for that price being less of a deal than some other box sets
Again its not so much that its more than i'm willing to pay. Its that I think I will get more mileage from my money spending it on other products.
Regardless of what I'm personally willing to spend, I have to question the wisdom of launching a new game with such an expensive product. There is a risk that too many people baulk at the price and the game will flounder as there will not be enough players to support a healthy community. Even if they wanted to make the Warlords this expensive, it might have been wiser to make the starter box cheaper with Reavers instead of Warlords and no terrain. Once people are already invested in the game, it is much easier to sell them expensive centrepiece models.
Crimson wrote: Regardless of what I'm personally willing to spend, I have to question the wisdom of launching a new game with such an expensive product. There is a risk that too many people baulk at the price and the game will flounder as there will not be enough players to support a healthy community. Even if they wanted to make the Warlords this expensive, it might have been wiser to make the starter box cheaper with Reavers instead of Warlords and no terrain. Once people are already invested in the game, it is much easier to sell them expensive centrepiece models.
I definately agree with you. Even if they had reavers as the main or warhounds to get into the max $160 USD box set range. All this does is set a very bad stage...
My problem is the whole hype they put behind it, they are making it seem like a limited release like get it now or else you can't get it til 2019 like they are doing everyone some kind of favor. It is a marketing scheme pure and simple. Try to create a demand to justify the price you want to get. A very poor business tactic and if bought into could set the stage for all future releases. Hopefully people won't buy into this kind of stupidity as now you made almost $300 the new norm for a starter or specialist box set.
Yes the warlord knights are cool and big but in all honesty you don't get a very good selection for a boxed set especially one priced almost double over any of their other boxed sets/ specialist games. I hope this is not the way of things to come. GW already had Acura pricing for their models... this easily will put them in Lamborgini pricing.
Good luck GW,, I can't and won't buy into it. This will price the average gamer right out of gaming making it very hard to find anyone to even play with.
Europe? Hey that's not so bad.
Americas? Gosh that's a lot
Oceania? HELL NO!
Or GW for not realizing that exchange rates have changed and forcing us to pay 8 year old exchange rates.
It's pretty disgraceful really. I'm no Economist / Lawyer, but I gotta think there's some wrong-doing here. But it's obviously legal, hence they'll do it if they can get away with it. And with their massive market share, they can get away with it fine so far.
Crimson wrote: Regardless of what I'm personally willing to spend, I have to question the wisdom of launching a new game with such an expensive product. There is a risk that too many people baulk at the price and the game will flounder as there will not be enough players to support a healthy community. Even if they wanted to make the Warlords this expensive, it might have been wiser to make the starter box cheaper with Reavers instead of Warlords and no terrain. Once people are already invested in the game, it is much easier to sell them expensive centrepiece models.
I hear that, but I think that patience is part of their plan. The GM box isn't aimed at price-sensitive people on the fence. Those may be enticed later, once the Reavers and Warhounds become available and normal maniples start hitting tabletops. And Reavers will probably be out by the time most people get their Warlords assembled and tables in order.
Sure, they may scare some away for good. But they're probably banking on at least some people coming around after seeing the amazing models on tables, in WD, the community page, etc. Promotion won't end after the launch.
It's probably important to mention that based on points levels we've seen on the terminals, you can probably approach a 1500 point maniple with just a Warlord, a Reaver, two Warhounds and a unit of Knights. That Axiom Battleline Maniple (WL, 2 R, 2 WH) should top 1500. A mid-level maniple probably won't be as large or quite as expensive as some think.
Justyn wrote: Or GW for not realizing that exchange rates have changed and forcing us to pay 8 year old exchange rates.
Or GW not realizing they have been getting the exchange rate wrong for their entire 40+ year history.
It's not that easy. For one thing, they have to price the models to be exchange rate sustainable, so if the exchange rate fluctuates wildly, their profits will not sink for periods of time. They could do the exchange rate thing if you were buying from the UK directly and the exchange rate is up to you.
Similarly, you aren't just buying the product. You are also paying for it to be shipped and warehoused in another country. So, the cost in the UK includes the cost of them having their own warehouse and shipping, but buying it in the US all that, plus shipping transcontinentally and warehousing in the other country on top of that. I think the US has its own facilities for a lot of things, which allows them to print some of the product in the US (but obviously, not all of it - custom dice, for example), and that's why the US prices are cheaper than AUS, where everything is created abroad and shipped there.
TL;DR - the exchange rate is not the only factor in prices. The US will always pay more for UK goods than people in the UK.
Macrossmartin wrote: This game is really bringing out the worst in some people, it seems. Or rather, the price and / or the policies applied by GW that led to it. I'm seeing some nasty exchanges between pro and anti camps out there on the interwebs.
I'd link to some from an ATFB group I'd joined - but I was banned for suggesting people have a right to express themselves, and it'd be nice if we all got along for a change.
I'm still in the market for this, now that the wave-motion gun-like blast of sticker-shock is beginning to echo off into the distance. But I can understand why many are pulling the plug.
My big concern is if this backlash will leave the game stillborn. Hopefully my fears will prove ill-founded, but I do wonder if GW have really missed the gaming community's vibe on this one.
On slightly less speculative matters - do we have a release date for weapons upgrade sets? And what can we expect to see in such a set?
This is going to have the effect I was fearing. Looking at the size of the minis, and how little movement there appears in the mock ups, it looks like a game with minimal movement and therefore tactics. So this means peeps are paying a lot for a game that will lose its novelty pretty quickly, and when everyone is tired of moving their units to the center of the board to duke it out, the game will collect dust.
I have been hoping there would be an expansion to this to at least include Space Marines down the road, but I just don't see that happening. I can only imagine what those would cost too. I had sticker shock when Epic 40k came out, and it was $10 for what was essentially 2 of the same size sprues that came 5 to a pack for $15 for SM2/TL.
What a shame. I just can't believe GW can't understand what made Epic so great in the first place. AT was great, but it was the mini Space Marines and Land Raiders that kicked down the door.
I hear that, but I think that patience is part of their plan. The GM box isn't aimed at price-sensitive people on the fence. Those may be enticed later, once the Reavers and Warhounds become available and normal maniples start hitting tabletops. And Reavers will probably be out by the time most people get their Warlords assembled and tables in order.
Sure, they may scare some away for good. But they're probably banking on at least some people coming around after seeing the amazing models on tables, in WD, the community page, etc. Promotion won't end after the launch.
It's probably important to mention that based on points levels we've seen on the terminals, you can probably approach a 1500 point maniple with just a Warlord, a Reaver, two Warhounds and a unit of Knights. That Axiom Battleline Maniple (WL, 2 R, 2 WH) should top 1500. A mid-level maniple probably won't be as large or quite as expensive as some think.
I love the responses that only take into account the big box. Its like those of us who are saying no cannot see the prices of the other boxes.
Crimson wrote: Regardless of what I'm personally willing to spend, I have to question the wisdom of launching a new game with such an expensive product. There is a risk that too many people baulk at the price and the game will flounder as there will not be enough players to support a healthy community. Even if they wanted to make the Warlords this expensive, it might have been wiser to make the starter box cheaper with Reavers instead of Warlords and no terrain. Once people are already invested in the game, it is much easier to sell them expensive centrepiece models.
I definately agree with you. Even if they had reavers as the main or warhounds to get into the max $160 USD box set range. All this does is set a very bad stage...
My problem is the whole hype they put behind it, they are making it seem like a limited release like get it now or else you can't get it til 2019 like they are doing everyone some kind of favor. It is a marketing scheme pure and simple. Try to create a demand to justify the price you want to get. A very poor business tactic and if bought into could set the stage for all future releases. Hopefully people won't buy into this kind of stupidity as now you made almost $300 the new norm for a starter or specialist box set.
Yes the warlord knights are cool and big but in all honesty you don't get a very good selection for a boxed set especially one priced almost double over any of their other boxed sets/ specialist games. I hope this is not the way of things to come. GW already had Acura pricing for their models... this easily will put them in Lamborgini pricing.
Good luck GW,, I can't and won't buy into it. This will price the average gamer right out of gaming making it very hard to find anyone to even play with.
A lot of the anger at the price I think reflects that the 200 dollar threshold is difficult to get past. Whenever I see someone trying to move an army and they ask north of 200, it always takes a long time no matter how good the value is. However, it's also hard to fault GW for making this decision. Knights have been exceedingly well received and have been one of the best selling model types. So asking 110 for a knight sized model is not outrageous because people have been buying them in bunches. However, GW must know that 200 dollars is a little much since the renegade boxed set is under 200 and that includes two full sized knights. The castellan is under 200 as well. I assume the lack of a bigger discount is based on the assumption that sales volume will be lower for this game.
I hear that, but I think that patience is part of their plan. The GM box isn't aimed at price-sensitive people on the fence. Those may be enticed later, once the Reavers and Warhounds become available and normal maniples start hitting tabletops. And Reavers will probably be out by the time most people get their Warlords assembled and tables in order.
Sure, they may scare some away for good. But they're probably banking on at least some people coming around after seeing the amazing models on tables, in WD, the community page, etc. Promotion won't end after the launch.
It's probably important to mention that based on points levels we've seen on the terminals, you can probably approach a 1500 point maniple with just a Warlord, a Reaver, two Warhounds and a unit of Knights. That Axiom Battleline Maniple (WL, 2 R, 2 WH) should top 1500. A mid-level maniple probably won't be as large or quite as expensive as some think.
I love the responses that only take into account the big box. Its like those of us who are saying no cannot see the prices of the other boxes.
If you have a new point to make, you can address me directly. I'm guessing you don't?
Europe? Hey that's not so bad.
Americas? Gosh that's a lot
Oceania? HELL NO!
Or GW for not realizing that exchange rates have changed and forcing us to pay 8 year old exchange rates.
It's pretty disgraceful really. I'm no Economist / Lawyer, but I gotta think there's some wrong-doing here. But it's obviously legal, hence they'll do it if they can get away with it. And with their massive market share, they can get away with it fine so far.
Unfortunately, almost every company does it. Apple products for example are the same price in dollars and pounds, so uk customers end up paying about 25% more. Pretty much every video game is more expensive in the uk etc, etc.
bogalubov wrote: A lot of the anger at the price I think reflects that the 200 dollar threshold is difficult to get past. Whenever I see someone trying to move an army and they ask north of 200, it always takes a long time no matter how good the value is. However, it's also hard to fault GW for making this decision. Knights have been exceedingly well received and have been one of the best selling model types. So asking 110 for a knight sized model is not outrageous because people have been buying them in bunches. However, GW must know that 200 dollars is a little much since the renegade boxed set is under 200 and that includes two full sized knights. The castellan is under 200 as well. I assume the lack of a bigger discount is based on the assumption that sales volume will be lower for this game.
Yeah, I think your assumption is probably on target.
I guess I have been pretty lucky financially over the last few years so I'm not quite so flustered by the price. Still, $300 is far less than I have to pay to put together a 2000 pt army so I'm not particularly outraged by the price. Let's say to add 2 reavers and 2 warhounds gets me to the $500 mark. Even then I am well below what I put in to my astral militarum army.
Macrossmartin wrote: This game is really bringing out the worst in some people, it seems. Or rather, the price and / or the policies applied by GW that led to it. I'm seeing some nasty exchanges between pro and anti camps out there on the interwebs.
I'd link to some from an ATFB group I'd joined - but I was banned for suggesting people have a right to express themselves, and it'd be nice if we all got along for a change.
I'm still in the market for this, now that the wave-motion gun-like blast of sticker-shock is beginning to echo off into the distance. But I can understand why many are pulling the plug.
My big concern is if this backlash will leave the game stillborn. Hopefully my fears will prove ill-founded, but I do wonder if GW have really missed the gaming community's vibe on this one.
On slightly less speculative matters - do we have a release date for weapons upgrade sets? And what can we expect to see in such a set?
This is going to have the effect I was fearing. Looking at the size of the minis, and how little movement there appears in the mock ups, it looks like a game with minimal movement and therefore tactics. So this means peeps are paying a lot for a game that will lose its novelty pretty quickly, and when everyone is tired of moving their units to the center of the board to duke it out, the game will collect dust.
I have been hoping there would be an expansion to this to at least include Space Marines down the road, but I just don't see that happening. I can only imagine what those would cost too. I had sticker shock when Epic 40k came out, and it was $10 for what was essentially 2 of the same size sprues that came 5 to a pack for $15 for SM2/TL.
What a shame. I just can't believe GW can't understand what made Epic so great in the first place. AT was great, but it was the mini Space Marines and Land Raiders that kicked down the door.
Since when has there not been movement? The latest White Dwarf has knights running around a Reaver to take it down by taking advantage of their greater mobility, we know that your guns gain more Strength when you fire at the side or rear of your target and so forth. If you're referring to the stream, that had two Warlords with volcano cannons blasting each other apart, I agree they stayed quite put. But that I think comes down to the ever present issue: terrain. Put more terrain on the table and have a proper city to fight in. While I agree that a Warlord could well loom over most buildings, the smaller titans and knights definitely should be able to hide behind terrain and emphasize their mobility. That's the way to good games.
Also, objectives and missions are a thing, like the main designer of the game has said even in this very thread. Duking it out in the middle is not the expected outcome for most matches.
And once more, this has nothing to do with Epic. It is not that they don't understand what made it great in its own right, it is that they wanted to make a different game. This isn't Epic. It was never meant to be Epic. It may someday expand towards Epic, but it is about titans and GW has been crystal clear on that matter from the very beginning.
For one thing, they have to price the models to be exchange rate sustainable, so if the exchange rate fluctuates wildly, their profits will not sink for periods of time. They could do the exchange rate thing if you were buying from the UK directly and the exchange rate is up to you.
For multinationals selling in multiple currencies, you would typically have the finance department hedge the foreign exchange risk, especially if you expect wild fluctuations. If they do, that must appear in their financial statements. I haven't checked that.
I’m hoping a little ways down the road (within 3-6 months), we’ll see a true starter set that comes with Reaver/Warhounds and Knights, and some trimmed-down terrain (maybe with the box itself being used as terrain, ala the smaller 40K starters). Hopefully, that will be more in line with what folks are willing to swallow on price.
I actually think this Grand Master set is akin to the Dark Imperium set - the “get it first, get it BIG” sort of set, and hopefully Roundtree had in mind a smaller set for the rest of us.
Got to say at the moment i think il pass on this one. Maybe down the road if it’s still going and has more than just titans then I might have a re think.
As is it’s just not for me even cost aside, now the lotr set that’s coming is another matter entirely.
I would see maniples box sets, e.g. axiom battleline maniple or venator light maniple, including the command terminal pack and additional weapons sprues
but without a really decent discount they would remain expensive
what would a venator light maniple cost? mandatory components: 1 Reaver + 2 Warhounds ...
I have to say, the price isn't a huge deterrent to me. Yeah, $290 is a lot of money (more so after Kill Team and AoS2), but I don't think it is a particularly unfair price for what you get. It's just a huge upfront investment before you've played the game, and the lack of a cheaper starting experience is frustrating (to play with my wife and kids, I'd need to supply two armies). But if I played the game and enjoyed it, I wouldn't consider the $290 to be a terrible deal. In fact, I'll bet the 2019 reprint does considerably better, given some distance from AoS2/KT and some more kits released for it.
I'm not getting it, mainly because I got both AoS2 and KT and springing a $290 box without warning won't give me enough time to save up before the initial print is likely sold out. I like the big robots, the gameplay looks interesting (I'm all for doing more with fewer miniatures), I like the scale, and I like the terrain. I'm not scared off by the price, but my pockets are only so deep and GW just cleaned them out (twice).
It seems like more of an upfront to absorb some of the production costs that would usually be absorbed by people building large armies of models. I'm not seeing games with 100s of Titans (or even knights) a side, unless it's an event game involving a store or club.
Sherrypie wrote: Since when has there not been movement? The latest White Dwarf has knights running around a Reaver to take it down by taking advantage of their greater mobility, we know that your guns gain more Strength when you fire at the side or rear of your target and so forth.
The bigger the models on a gaming board = less room to move.
And once more, this has nothing to do with Epic. It is not that they don't understand what made it great in its own right, it is that they wanted to make a different game. This isn't Epic. It was never meant to be Epic. It may someday expand towards Epic, but it is about titans and GW has been crystal clear on that matter from the very beginning.
This would have been the gate-way TO Epic. If this fails, any expansion on AT doesn't happen. How could it. Well, AT failed so should we invest on expanding it? Uhh... no.
You already had disappointment from a lot of people hoping for a return to glory years, and now others about the prices. Yes I know in the mix there are those that do not care about expanding the game to include infantry and tanks, and those who love the idea of managing a few models versus those managing strategy in a larger game, however, that thinking is far limited in scope than in developing something that can be expanded on.
It amazes me people don't see that. Who wants to shell out $300 for a game with a limited model run and tactics?!? Far fewer than those who want to shell out less for a game with far more options. Which is my point.
Sherrypie wrote: Since when has there not been movement? The latest White Dwarf has knights running around a Reaver to take it down by taking advantage of their greater mobility, we know that your guns gain more Strength when you fire at the side or rear of your target and so forth.
The bigger the models on a gaming board = less room to move.
Technically, yes. However, given that there will only be from two to maybe twenty models (in a large game that benefits from a larger field) in total on the field, that isn't going to be a problem as long as the players use enough terrain to create interesting variety and choices on the table. Most missions suggest 4' x 4' tables. There's nothing that prevents you from using larger tables, like a 6' x 4' standard table or whatever you have. That is plenty of space to move and maneuver with a few not-really-Knight-sized Warlords and a bunch of fist sized lesser machines on the table, as much of that maneuvering comes from restricted turning capabilities. In BFG for an example, one of my long time favourite games, much of the decision making comes from trying to anticipate how you need to move in order to reach your proper destination in two or three turns while firing away. This game should be similar, considering how Hewitt has cited BFG as a prominent source of inspiration.
And once more, this has nothing to do with Epic. It is not that they don't understand what made it great in its own right, it is that they wanted to make a different game. This isn't Epic. It was never meant to be Epic. It may someday expand towards Epic, but it is about titans and GW has been crystal clear on that matter from the very beginning.
This would have been the gate-way TO Epic. If this fails, any expansion on AT doesn't happen. How could it. Well, AT failed so should we invest on expanding it? Uhh... no.
You already had disappointment from a lot of people hoping for a return to glory years, and now others about the prices. Yes I know in the mix there are those that do not care about expanding the game to include infantry and tanks, and those who love the idea of managing a few models versus those managing strategy in a larger game, however, that thinking is far limited in scope than in developing something that can be expanded on.
It amazes me people don't see that. Who wants to shell out $300 for a game with a limited model run and tactics?!? Far fewer than those who want to shell out less for a game with far more options. Which is my point.
Well, I would say it is pretty hasty to say too much about the lack of tactics, really. Or about models: within a few months we'll have the main titans and a bunch of weapons, that should give a wide range of options considering that means we have harassers, light titans, line titans and heavy titans, each of which can be armed for a variety of purposes. They may very well allow for quite a varied bunch of approaches to the battles.
I'm more amazed by the insistence that this will necessarly fail now that it has a price (which is in line with the expectations here in Europe, I feel for you dollarfolks) or because it still isn't Epic. Sure Epic is awesome and stuff, but since the designers never said this would be Epic, I'm willing to stay hyped for the titan clash that it has always purported to be.
What concerns me is that any game, specialist or not, needs a price tag which attracts new buyers. That's why "starter boxes" exist. They're almost all universally good values - if not amazing, at least good. They're the opening salvo. You get the starter kit and then you want the nice toys. A game of AT (if rumours are to be believed) requires a nearly similar investment in plastic as 40K, which is a bit crazy.
I am suspicious if the Reaver and Warhound are intentionally being delayed to maybe cover a lack of initial sales? When I see AT and the prices (not just the GM box) I don't see anything that says "yeah, rush out and buy several $110 models!", etc. I can easily see GW releasing a "proper" starter box down the road with a Reaver, two Warhounds, and a couple knights, etc for a more sane price.
As it stands now the initial buy in, regardless of how you do it is $300+ unless you planned on simply running a couple Knight formations against each other. Consider how much something like Dark Imperium got you for nearly half that cost. You can actually play games of 40K with that starter set. GW really needs a better/discounted starter set, particularly for a dead item which has some nostalgic fans but will have to win over new customers. Imagine the average 40K customer who's never head of AT and he walks in and sees a Grand Master box and grabs it thinking "oh cool, a new game!". Then he sees a $290 pricetag. Dead on arrival.
So he drops that box and looks at the rulebook. Oof, $60...okay...well how much is one of these Warlords...$110...ouch. There's nothing about this product which is a suitable way to start without a serious investment (if we're considering this from the consumer range they're aiming at - high schoolers and college/recent college kids). Is $290 some impossible price for a working adult? No. But it's way too much for a larger share of their consumer market.
This would have been the gate-way TO Epic. If this fails, any expansion on AT doesn't happen. How could it. Well, AT failed so should we invest on expanding it? Uhh... no.
An expansion on AT will be more AT. It will not be Epic. If Epic happens somewhere down the line, it will be in the form of a separate rules set that just so happens to be using AT miniatures to supplement a whole new range of 8mm infantry and vehicle kits.
I see no reason to think the post Kirby GW is dumb enough to judge the viability of a game based on the performance of a completely different range of miniatures and rules.
This would have been the gate-way TO Epic. If this fails, any expansion on AT doesn't happen. How could it. Well, AT failed so should we invest on expanding it? Uhh... no.
An expansion on AT will be more AT. It will not be Epic. If Epic happens somewhere down the line, it will be in the form of a separate rules set that just so happens to be using AT miniatures to supplement a whole new range of 8mm infantry and vehicle kits.
I see no reason to think the post Kirby GW is dumb enough to judge the viability of a game based on the performance of a completely different range of miniatures and rules.
I think that's a tad disingenuous. AT isn't a completely different range of miniatures and rules. If I'm not mistaken, I saw many Warlords, Reavers, and Knights back in the day. How much will the rules differ? IDK. But personally I feel completely comfortable putting this game in the Epic category, at least in spirit.
changemod wrote: Most people play at stores or clubs and don’t have to worry much about that.
I would be curious to see what you're basing that assumption on.
Besides, if you don't need the terrain, there would be little point in buying the GM edition - at that point, better to buy the rules and cherry pick the models you want.
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Macrossmartin wrote: Can I just say that... in one page of posts, the Dakka community has restored my belief that it is possible for wargamers to conduct themselves intelligently and thoughtfully in debate and discussion.
There is already a lot of micro management going on if you are fielding multiple titans. If you add in marines, tanks, whatever it will just slow the game down and make it longer and clunky to play. They would have to simplify the hell out of any significant epic additions to this game to avoid rules bloat.
I do wish they released little marines though just to put on the bases or building decks, just for decoration and to give a sense of scale to the game.
Well, I feel this will be a bit of a repeat of something like Dreadfleet. I am sure every fan of Man O' War was stunned they might be getting an updated version of that game, and were disappointed when the 'designers never said this would be' another Man O' War, or even close. Dreadfleet was limited in scope and is collecting dust on shelves. I am not interested in one-off games, and lord knows I have enough of that from a bunch of other companies. I am more invested into buying into a system that will grow. Telling me right out of the gate that this isn't the intent is a great way for me to keep my money in my wallet.
If it was the designers intent with Dreadfleet then great, they got exactly what they wanted. Unfortunately for just about everyone who bought the game, its dormant and no one is interested in playing it. I am sure there are some hardcore fanatics of Dreadfleet who think its the best game ever and is everything they wanted, and agree that the idea of incorporating more minis is foolish, but they seem to be few in number. Projecting limited support for a game is a sure way of killing interest in it.
Guess we'll just have to note the date and time and check back in a year and see who else is still playing it after the novelty wears off.
It is a big asking price, especially so soon after the launch of Kill Team. The new scale will have no doubt pushed the price up, which may be why a lot of people are a bit shocked at seeing it.
Still, I think it is risky releasing this so close to Kill Team. Guess we'll see how it pans out.
Thargrim wrote: There is already a lot of micro management going on if you are fielding multiple titans. If you add in marines, tanks, whatever it will just slow the game down and make it longer and clunky to play. They would have to simplify the hell out of any significant epic additions to this game to avoid rules bloat.
Exactly, which is why I am doubtful this will expand enough to inspire people to really invest in it. I wouldn't mind some detail to manage titans, but where the heck are you going to put all those cards when playing a decent sized game? I mentioned Man O' War above, but that game used a template per ship (even a much smaller one), and having all the templates for your fleet out on the table took up a lot of space, and those minis were small.
I guess I am just jaded. I miss the days of strategy with sweeping flanks and long distance ranges. Now everything is getting bigger and the tables space remains the same, bunching everything up. Its really starting to feel claustrophobic.
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stonehorse wrote: It is a big asking price, especially so soon after the launch of Kill Team. The new scale will have no doubt pushed the price up, which may be why a lot of people are a bit shocked at seeing it.
Still, I think it is risky releasing this so close to Kill Team. Guess we'll see how it pans out.
I wonder if this hurts GW in the long run, then hurts us. We all wanted to see more variety from them years back, but now its almost like whoa, I can't keep up. Necromunda, Kill Team, Adeptus, back to back. Not only is it expensive to keep up, but everyone is going to be investing in and playing different games lol.
I like what they have done with Necromunda. I hope that models follows with Adeptus. But Necromunda and Kill Team all use the same terrain and in some cases models. Its easy for them to recycle parts. Adeptus is a whole other animal.
TwilightSparkles wrote: Adding infantry breaks the scale of the game. I cannot honestly eee how anyone who has read hiwvrhe game plays can claim there are no tactics.
Fire lanes. Orders. Reactor. For starters. That's before reavers and warhounds are added in.
AT looks to be one of the more strategical games GW has put out lately, how anyone can find AT seem to lack strategy is beyond me.
Perhaps people are basing their opinions on the battle report WarhammerTV did, it wasnt a very interesting game since it ended up with them just running straight at each other but the intention of that game was only to show off the system.
Im very excited about AT, after being rather disappointed with most of what GW has released the past year im excited to see something different enough to justify calling it a "new" game. The price is a problem, it makes my heart and wallet cry blood but I just dont see how I could resist. The game seems brilliant and if I can build up a decent 2-player set im happy with that, support and expansions would be nice but im not all too worried if it doesnt get there.
Love it or hate it, the price is the price. It's not something I can affect, so I'm not putting any mental energy there.
As for the box potentially pricing out new players - that's a valid concern, though the rules package and individual titans is another way of approaching that.
My opinion is that the Grand Master box is designed for grognards who fondly remember previous editions of the game and folks who really want titan on titan action.
Fence sitters will wait to see how it's supported and then buy in if they like what they see (or have a community that plays).
However, I suspect that GW will at least give this a "Necromunda" or "Blood Bowl" level of support.
..and lastly, for those too lazy to watch the designer video, here are the pertinent points:
* Original game was all about Titans, and that's what this is
* You are a Princeps leading your titan maniple
* * *Giving orders to the other titans of your group
* 80s game design origins, so this reflects that level of crunch
* Turn Sequence is from original AT * Order system is from BFG * Combat resolution draws on 40K * Game is designed for 3 to 5 titans (7 maximum)
* Commend Terminals track everything
* * * Gives you things to do when not your turn as well
* They might do other (bigger) titans in the future
* Plasma is key resource in game
* * * Assign it to systems
* * * Stress reactor for more of it - but this is dangerous
* * * Reactor venting and damage become increasingly important as the game progresses
TwilightSparkles wrote: Adding infantry breaks the scale of the game. I cannot honestly eee how anyone who has read hiwvrhe game plays can claim there are no tactics.
Fire lanes. Orders. Reactor. For starters. That's before reavers and warhounds are added in.
AT looks to be one of the more strategical games GW has put out lately, how anyone can find AT seem to lack strategy is beyond me.
Perhaps people are basing their opinions on the battle report WarhammerTV did, it wasnt a very interesting game since it ended up with them just running straight at each other but the intention of that game was only to show off the system.
Im very excited about AT, after being rather disappointed with most of what GW has released the past year im excited to see something different enough to justify calling it a "new" game. The price is a problem, it makes my heart and wallet cry blood but I just dont see how I could resist. The game seems brilliant and if I can build up a decent 2-player set im happy with that, support and expansions would be nice but im not all too worried if it doesnt get there.
I've watched a few youtube batreps, and they always seem really, really boring. One guy sets up his whole army clumped on one side of the board, the other guy sets up in the same manner on the other side of the board, and then the fun begins...(from what I've seen). Micro-managing warlords and flanking with warhounds seems far more interesting to me.
Sqorgar wrote: I have to say, the price isn't a huge deterrent to me. Yeah, $290 is a lot of money (more so after Kill Team and AoS2), but I don't think it is a particularly unfair price for what you get. It's just a huge upfront investment before you've played the game, and the lack of a cheaper starting experience is frustrating (to play with my wife and kids, I'd need to supply two armies). But if I played the game and enjoyed it, I wouldn't consider the $290 to be a terrible deal. In fact, I'll bet the 2019 reprint does considerably better, given some distance from AoS2/KT and some more kits released for it.
I'm not getting it, mainly because I got both AoS2 and KT and springing a $290 box without warning won't give me enough time to save up before the initial print is likely sold out. I like the big robots, the gameplay looks interesting (I'm all for doing more with fewer miniatures), I like the scale, and I like the terrain. I'm not scared off by the price, but my pockets are only so deep and GW just cleaned them out (twice).
Problem is I think GW is testing the water for yet another massive price hike for 2019, I feel this is just setting the stage. Kinda like when gas prices spike and then taper off a little. People get outraged at the sticker shock. I think if this tactic succeeds and we let it do so... expect new games/ boxed sets and that to follow suit.
Hopefully GW will not get the support they hope for with this.
Sqorgar wrote: I have to say, the price isn't a huge deterrent to me. Yeah, $290 is a lot of money (more so after Kill Team and AoS2), but I don't think it is a particularly unfair price for what you get. It's just a huge upfront investment before you've played the game, and the lack of a cheaper starting experience is frustrating (to play with my wife and kids, I'd need to supply two armies). But if I played the game and enjoyed it, I wouldn't consider the $290 to be a terrible deal. In fact, I'll bet the 2019 reprint does considerably better, given some distance from AoS2/KT and some more kits released for it.
I'm not getting it, mainly because I got both AoS2 and KT and springing a $290 box without warning won't give me enough time to save up before the initial print is likely sold out. I like the big robots, the gameplay looks interesting (I'm all for doing more with fewer miniatures), I like the scale, and I like the terrain. I'm not scared off by the price, but my pockets are only so deep and GW just cleaned them out (twice).
Problem is I think GW is testing the water for yet another massive price hike for 2019, I feel this is just setting the stage. Kinda like when gas prices spike and then taper off a little. People get outraged at the sticker shock. I think if this tactic succeeds and we let it do so... expect new games/ boxed sets and that to follow suit.
Hopefully GW will not get the support they hope for with this.
Meh, this is looking to hard. GW is making money hand over fist with their current model. I doubt we see a major price hike. Every once in a while there is a pricing misstep ala chainrasps but they've been pretty consistent in the grand scheme. I think this is just a confluence of a specialist game and lower estimated sales totals coming to the fore. I'm not happy with the price but mostly because it's unlikely to sweep the local area at that cost. I'll still grab the individual models here and there as they are worth the price if you've been on the epic black market for any length of time they're a steal.
angel of death 007 wrote: Problem is I think GW is testing the water for yet another massive price hike for 2019, I feel this is just setting the stage. Kinda like when gas prices spike and then taper off a little. People get outraged at the sticker shock. I think if this tactic succeeds and we let it do so... expect new games/ boxed sets and that to follow suit.
Hopefully GW will not get the support they hope for with this.
I don't see it. If they were going to do that, they'd do it during an edition change, not make a really super expensive niche product with a limited audience made up of people where "old school crunchy" is a selling point. AT is expensive because it was designed to be expensive. It's built around $100 models. It's never going to be mass market.
The limited, aha, scale of the game will also factor into prices.
With them describing it as 7 Titans absolute max, that’s a decent price ceiling for them to deal with, especially if we make (the not entirely safe assumption) that doesn’t mean 7 Warlords, but a mix of classes.
Yeah, like I said, a full Axiom Battleline Maniple (1 WL, 2 R, 2 WH) looks to clock in near 1700 points, which is at the high end of the mid-level game size.
I'll probably be at that maximum or near it just because I'm running all Warhounds.
With them describing it as 7 Titans absolute max, that’s a decent price ceiling for them to deal with, especially if we make (the not entirely safe assumption) that doesn’t mean 7 Warlords, but a mix of classes.
Didnt they say that you'd only ever need 1 warlord?
gorgon wrote: Yeah, like I said, a full Axiom Battleline Maniple (1 WL, 2 R, 2 WH) looks to clock in near 1700 points, which is at the high end of the mid-level game size.
I'll probably be at that maximum or near it just because I'm running all Warhounds.
I just wish they'd give us the damn prices already. I know it's not their usual thing, releasing prices months in advance, but I'd much prefer the (1 WL, 2 R, 2 WH) than 2W, 6K, some books and some terrain. But which works out to be less ridiculously (to many people) expensive?
With them describing it as 7 Titans absolute max, that’s a decent price ceiling for them to deal with, especially if we make (the not entirely safe assumption) that doesn’t mean 7 Warlords, but a mix of classes.
Didnt they say that you'd only ever need 1 warlord?
It's safe to say the fan reaction to the price has been almost universally negative, and it wouldn't surprise me if GW actually knock the price down very slightly when pre-orders go up on Saturday. Did they not do something similar with Shadow War Armageddon?
richstrach wrote: It's safe to say the fan reaction to the price has been almost universally negative, and it wouldn't surprise me if GW actually knock the price down very slightly when pre-orders go up on Saturday. Did they not do something similar with Shadow War Armageddon?
It would be nice if they heard the feedback and considered it, but that seems like a dream...not like something GW would do or has ever been known to do.
I don't know what they were thinking here. Originally this was going to be resin, but they switched to plastic to cut down cost. What would this have cost in resin then? How do you open up a new game system at this price and expect it to succeed?
good luck....i will probably just wait for the video game.
Not to divert from the conversation about prices*, but I'm more worried about a game play issue:
How are we supposed to be using these cardstock terminals? I know you have weapons cards for the weapons on each Titan, but how do they attach to the terminal? Do we just lay them on top? Aren't they going to slip off when you pick it up?
And the 'pegs' used to track damage, shield strength, and plasma. What's keeping them in the holes in a cardstock terminal? Are they going to wear larger holes in the terminal and pop out?
I'm entirely on the fence about the price of this game, but I'm NOT looking forwards to dropping substantial cash on the game only to discover that I have to use blu-tac on my stuff.
*And, on the topic of pricing, it really seems like the Grand Master edition is what is giving people fits. The Rule Set comes with the rulebook, ruler, dice, templates, Terminals, weapons cards, the 'other' cards, transfers, and evidently, Objectives (from the WD), for $60. That seems like a great deal. The 40K rulebook is $60 by itself. I know this one is smaller, but you get all that other stuff. Then just buy the individual Titans/Knights you want and grow your army the way you grow a 40K army. People don't always buy a 2000 point army in one go, so why are people feeling they HAVE to on this one?
I do agree that a box with, say, the Rules Set content, and one Warlord, for perhaps $100-125 might have been a better way to entice people into the game, and provided a more appealing entry point, especially since it would have given you kind of 'two options' for a 'starting force' (the Grand Master, and some other edition). But I don't see a particularly bad value on the Rule Set, and then you can buy Titans, and scenery, as you wish.
I am very unhappy that the scenery is SO unlike the Sector Mechanicus and Sector Imperialis stuff. I don't think it looks bad, but why do Titans fight in pristine areas, and everybody else in bombed out ruins? I would have liked to see scenery that looked like smaller versions of the stuff we use in 40K and Kill Team (less modular, of course).
I suspect the reasons Titans fight in such pristine areas is that if Titan weapons are fired at a building it ceases to exist as anything worth of a model (more an illustration of a smoking crater on a mapsheet)
My FLGS was hoping to have been pre-ordering quite a few copies of this game and certianly my local Gaming club were all buying into it. That was when the rumoured price was the £120. Now it's announced at £175, even with my local shops discount, he's not received 1 pre-order. No one wants to buy in with such a high price tag. Essentially he was banking on shifting around 20 copies of the game just into the local club. No one wants it now. There's a few just buying the rules and then using their Epic Titans rather than buying the new stuff.
Interestingly, GW did offer him a free copy og the game to use in his store, IF he pre ordered 30 copies of the game!
With them describing it as 7 Titans absolute max, that’s a decent price ceiling for them to deal with, especially if we make (the not entirely safe assumption) that doesn’t mean 7 Warlords, but a mix of classes.
Didnt they say that you'd only ever need 1 warlord?
They in this case was just someone on Naftka, however I think it's clear that you'll likely just end up using 1. the lore for titans notes that warlords are useally deployed alone, or with a supporting force of lesser titans and that it is VERY rare for multiple warlords to be deployed. A lot of people heard "core" with reagrds to warlords and I think thought "core as in tactial marines" in that it makes up the bulk of your army. but I think core in this case is more "center peice" the single large unit you build your force around. your average AT battle is going to consist of a warlord on each side acting as a anchor/tank well each sides deploys their lighter elements to the flanks in an attempt to take down the other unit. it should be a pretty tactical game if thats the case.
And, on the topic of pricing, it really seems like the Grand Master edition is what is giving people fits. The Rule Set comes with the rulebook, ruler, dice, templates, Terminals, weapons cards, the 'other' cards, transfers, and evidently, Objectives (from the WD), for $60. That seems like a great deal. The 40K rulebook is $60 by itself. I know this one is smaller, but you get all that other stuff. Then just buy the individual Titans/Knights you want and grow your army the way you grow a 40K army. People don't always buy a 2000 point army in one go, so why are people feeling they HAVE to on this one? do agree that a box with, say, the Rules Set content, and one Warlord, for perhaps $100-125 might have been a better way to entice people into the game, and provided a more appealing entry point, especially since it would have given you kind of 'two options' for a 'starting force' (the Grand Master, and some other edition). But I don't see a particularly bad value on the Rule Set, and then you can buy Titans, and scenery, as you wish.
That's exactly what I'm doing - the rules and a warlord titan to start with, then in time I'll build it up more.
And, on the topic of pricing, it really seems like the Grand Master edition is what is giving people fits. The Rule Set comes with the rulebook, ruler, dice, templates, Terminals, weapons cards, the 'other' cards, transfers, and evidently, Objectives (from the WD), for $60. That seems like a great deal. The 40K rulebook is $60 by itself. I know this one is smaller, but you get all that other stuff. Then just buy the individual Titans/Knights you want and grow your army the way you grow a 40K army. People don't always buy a 2000 point army in one go, so why are people feeling they HAVE to on this one? do agree that a box with, say, the Rules Set content, and one Warlord, for perhaps $100-125 might have been a better way to entice people into the game, and provided a more appealing entry point, especially since it would have given you kind of 'two options' for a 'starting force' (the Grand Master, and some other edition). But I don't see a particularly bad value on the Rule Set, and then you can buy Titans, and scenery, as you wish.
That's exactly what I'm doing - the rules and a warlord titan to start with, then in time I'll build it up more.
Indeed - just proxy models - Knights for Titans and Amigers for Knights
Someone will do rules to use Stompas as Gargants, Morkanaughts as Stompas and WraithKinghts as Phantoms Warlocks
And, on the topic of pricing, it really seems like the Grand Master edition is what is giving people fits. The Rule Set comes with the rulebook, ruler, dice, templates, Terminals, weapons cards, the 'other' cards, transfers, and evidently, Objectives (from the WD), for $60. That seems like a great deal. The 40K rulebook is $60 by itself. I know this one is smaller, but you get all that other stuff. Then just buy the individual Titans/Knights you want and grow your army the way you grow a 40K army. People don't always buy a 2000 point army in one go, so why are people feeling they HAVE to on this one? do agree that a box with, say, the Rules Set content, and one Warlord, for perhaps $100-125 might have been a better way to entice people into the game, and provided a more appealing entry point, especially since it would have given you kind of 'two options' for a 'starting force' (the Grand Master, and some other edition). But I don't see a particularly bad value on the Rule Set, and then you can buy Titans, and scenery, as you wish.
That's exactly what I'm doing - the rules and a warlord titan to start with, then in time I'll build it up more.
And, on the topic of pricing, it really seems like the Grand Master edition is what is giving people fits. The Rule Set comes with the rulebook, ruler, dice, templates, Terminals, weapons cards, the 'other' cards, transfers, and evidently, Objectives (from the WD), for $60. That seems like a great deal. The 40K rulebook is $60 by itself. I know this one is smaller, but you get all that other stuff. Then just buy the individual Titans/Knights you want and grow your army the way you grow a 40K army. People don't always buy a 2000 point army in one go, so why are people feeling they HAVE to on this one? do agree that a box with, say, the Rules Set content, and one Warlord, for perhaps $100-125 might have been a better way to entice people into the game, and provided a more appealing entry point, especially since it would have given you kind of 'two options' for a 'starting force' (the Grand Master, and some other edition). But I don't see a particularly bad value on the Rule Set, and then you can buy Titans, and scenery, as you wish.
That's exactly what I'm doing - the rules and a warlord titan to start with, then in time I'll build it up more.
Indeed - just proxy models - Knights for Titans and Amigers for Knights
Someone will do rules to use Stompas as Gargants, Morkanaughts as Stompas and WraithKinghts as Phantoms Warlocks
Armigers will be your Reavers :p IDK what Knights will be, it's been a long time since I was fully aware of the 40k range. Maybe some sort of AM bots?
If the Grandmaster edition was 1 warlord, 1 reaver, 2 warhounds, and 3 knights I'd be more interested. Make it truly a collection purchase and the price would feel less painful.
gorgon wrote: Yeah, like I said, a full Axiom Battleline Maniple (1 WL, 2 R, 2 WH) looks to clock in near 1700 points, which is at the high end of the mid-level game size.
I'll probably be at that maximum or near it just because I'm running all Warhounds.
I just wish they'd give us the damn prices already. I know it's not their usual thing, releasing prices months in advance, but I'd much prefer the (1 WL, 2 R, 2 WH) than 2W, 6K, some books and some terrain. But which works out to be less ridiculously (to many people) expensive?
Maybe we can get a rough ballpark figure just by looking to similar kits. The Warlord is a little smaller than a 40K Knight, and the price came in a little less than a 40K Knight. So for Reavers, maybe the Redemptor dread plus a little more? The Warhounds could be around SM Centurion size (?), so maybe $50 for two or a little higher? That's obviously complete guesswork, but those prices feel kinda right to me. *shrug*
It's definitely not skirmish game pricing, but I think GW is aiming this at a different market segment anyway. As evidenced by it coming so closely on the heels of KT.
I think GW kind of does want it to 'fail'. The game was originally intended to be super niche with resin titans aimed squarely at the playerbase who are used to paying £200 for a single super heavy vehicle. The specialist studio is currently stretched very thin. Adeptus Titanicus had a single sculptor who has spent two years designing and then redesigning the titans and doing nothing else and we only have 4 kits and a bits sprue to show for it They don't have enough designers to keep up with demand for bloodbowl and Necromunda let alone this.
They only changed to plastic because people were much more enthusiastic than they thought.
In interviews Andy Hoare has talked several times about how old school and crunchy this game is. The design of the book deliberately echoes the Horus Heresy forgeworld books.
The high price and the limited supply feel like a little warning to modern 40k players that this product is not for them. It is not even really for gaming clubs.
The grand master box feels like it was designed for two Heresy fans, who have read all the novels, bought a few forgeworld Knights and who play once a week in their garage.
They have highlighted that the titans are easy to magnetise. I have been in the hobby for more than twenty years and I had not even heard the term rare earth magnets until I read about in the Titanicus coverage.
They simply do not have the staff to design all the vehicles and xenos titans that players would want to expand this game. So if this game ends up having a playerbase of just 10,000 players world wide, I don't think GW will mind too much. They can put out a couple of releases a year and maybe come back and take a stab at epic when they have twice as many designers as they do now.
I do think, though, that they will sell a lot of titans even if most of them just end up being collectors pieces.
*And, on the topic of pricing, it really seems like the Grand Master edition is what is giving people fits. The Rule Set comes with the rulebook, ruler, dice, templates, Terminals, weapons cards, the 'other' cards, transfers, and evidently, Objectives (from the WD), for $60. That seems like a great deal. The 40K rulebook is $60 by itself. I know this one is smaller, but you get all that other stuff. Then just buy the individual Titans/Knights you want and grow your army the way you grow a 40K army. People don't always buy a 2000 point army in one go, so why are people feeling they HAVE to on this one?
Given that the GM set just compiles all of the stuff that people that people would need to buy anyway with a nominal discount, the point isn't that the GM set specifically is too expensive, it's that it illustrates the total cost of buying into the game. And that's too high for some of us.
That's mighty nice of them, it has concerned me for along time that I had to pay a small conversion charge, thank goodness I can now just buy at double the price! Whoooo.
To give some actual info based on some careful comparison of white dwarf pics, online comparisons and my own models I found out the sizes of the kits. The Warlord is 15cm tall, just a tiny bit shorter than the imperial knight. The eyeline height is almost exactly the same. The big difference is the width. 10cm for the Warlord compared to 15cm for the knight. The Warlord is on a 120mm base. The Reaver is almost exactly the same height as the armiger but by contrast the legs of the Reaver are quite a bit chunkier.
The mini Knights are 4cm high, about the same height as a primaris, but a bit wider.
AT/SM1 are what got me into table top gaming. Loved that time period. Found this on YouTube:
These guys are playing on a narrow board with the older Titans, but considering the new ones are gigantic, this might as well be how the new game plays. The game these guys played simply involved moving up your titans to point blank range in the middle of the board. No creative tactics in sight. But then again, there just isn’t any room for them either. These guys really should have turned the board sideways and and spread their few models out. This is what I mean about cramp spaces. I’ll need space for the new templates, my massive models, bigger buildings, and every game will be predictable. Oh yay I get to manage plasma and wrestle with the machine spirit. I could care less about that. To me it’s just another layer of unnecessary depth to make me feel like I am getting more out of my model because they cost so much and are too big to have too many of, and a for a game limited in scope. So awesome.
And I can’t for the life of me understand how anyone can think not having some infantry and tanks running around wouldn’t have added an amazing dynamic to the game.
I do have all of my previous Epid stuff. I will give the new system a go with all of my old models and see how that plays out. I own 15 of the old plastic beetle Warlords shown in the video alone. Then another 4 Reavers and 4 Warhounds.
On that map I'm seeing LOTS of room for them to apply tactics. they're just not doing so. as fgor power management etc, that can create depth in a game because suddenly you have choices. "do I wanna fire all my guns and risk 'over heating' etc"
*And, on the topic of pricing, it really seems like the Grand Master edition is what is giving people fits. The Rule Set comes with the rulebook, ruler, dice, templates, Terminals, weapons cards, the 'other' cards, transfers, and evidently, Objectives (from the WD), for $60. That seems like a great deal. The 40K rulebook is $60 by itself. I know this one is smaller, but you get all that other stuff. Then just buy the individual Titans/Knights you want and grow your army the way you grow a 40K army. People don't always buy a 2000 point army in one go, so why are people feeling they HAVE to on this one?
Given that the GM set just compiles all of the stuff that people that people would need to buy anyway with a nominal discount, the point isn't that the GM set specifically is too expensive, it's that it illustrates the total cost of buying into the game. And that's too high for some of us.
And to add to that, they've said the intention is that a standard game is 3 warlords per side... meaning while you can play with the box contents, it still doesn't represent the full extent of how they intend you to play.
*And, on the topic of pricing, it really seems like the Grand Master edition is what is giving people fits. The Rule Set comes with the rulebook, ruler, dice, templates, Terminals, weapons cards, the 'other' cards, transfers, and evidently, Objectives (from the WD), for $60. That seems like a great deal. The 40K rulebook is $60 by itself. I know this one is smaller, but you get all that other stuff. Then just buy the individual Titans/Knights you want and grow your army the way you grow a 40K army. People don't always buy a 2000 point army in one go, so why are people feeling they HAVE to on this one?
Given that the GM set just compiles all of the stuff that people that people would need to buy anyway with a nominal discount, the point isn't that the GM set specifically is too expensive, it's that it illustrates the total cost of buying into the game. And that's too high for some of us.
And to add to that, they've said the intention is that a standard game is 3 warlords per side... meaning while you can play with the box contents, it still doesn't represent the full extent of how they intend you to play.
*And, on the topic of pricing, it really seems like the Grand Master edition is what is giving people fits. The Rule Set comes with the rulebook, ruler, dice, templates, Terminals, weapons cards, the 'other' cards, transfers, and evidently, Objectives (from the WD), for $60. That seems like a great deal. The 40K rulebook is $60 by itself. I know this one is smaller, but you get all that other stuff. Then just buy the individual Titans/Knights you want and grow your army the way you grow a 40K army. People don't always buy a 2000 point army in one go, so why are people feeling they HAVE to on this one?
Given that the GM set just compiles all of the stuff that people that people would need to buy anyway with a nominal discount, the point isn't that the GM set specifically is too expensive, it's that it illustrates the total cost of buying into the game. And that's too high for some of us.
And to add to that, they've said the intention is that a standard game is 3 warlords per side... meaning while you can play with the box contents, it still doesn't represent the full extent of how they intend you to play.
I imagine their intent is for us to play with a mixed force of titans, of which 3 warlords is possiable but more likely reivers and warhounds. they're giving us data cards for all those too even though the models won't be out immediatly, my gut feeling is they're expecting your average player to start with a warlord, and maybe some knights, and then slowly expand from there.(which is how people build a force for any GW game really)
My gut says a "3 warlord army" will be doable at "high standard points levels" but not likely the optimal army.
*And, on the topic of pricing, it really seems like the Grand Master edition is what is giving people fits. The Rule Set comes with the rulebook, ruler, dice, templates, Terminals, weapons cards, the 'other' cards, transfers, and evidently, Objectives (from the WD), for $60. That seems like a great deal. The 40K rulebook is $60 by itself. I know this one is smaller, but you get all that other stuff. Then just buy the individual Titans/Knights you want and grow your army the way you grow a 40K army. People don't always buy a 2000 point army in one go, so why are people feeling they HAVE to on this one?
Given that the GM set just compiles all of the stuff that people that people would need to buy anyway with a nominal discount, the point isn't that the GM set specifically is too expensive, it's that it illustrates the total cost of buying into the game. And that's too high for some of us.
And to add to that, they've said the intention is that a standard game is 3 warlords per side... meaning while you can play with the box contents, it still doesn't represent the full extent of how they intend you to play.
Can you cite that?
In the White Dwarf batrep, James Hewitt says it's designed for 3-5 titans per side, so that could be a warlord and two Reavers, say, or a warlord, a reaver and two warhounds.
*And, on the topic of pricing, it really seems like the Grand Master edition is what is giving people fits. The Rule Set comes with the rulebook, ruler, dice, templates, Terminals, weapons cards, the 'other' cards, transfers, and evidently, Objectives (from the WD), for $60. That seems like a great deal. The 40K rulebook is $60 by itself. I know this one is smaller, but you get all that other stuff. Then just buy the individual Titans/Knights you want and grow your army the way you grow a 40K army. People don't always buy a 2000 point army in one go, so why are people feeling they HAVE to on this one?
Given that the GM set just compiles all of the stuff that people that people would need to buy anyway with a nominal discount, the point isn't that the GM set specifically is too expensive, it's that it illustrates the total cost of buying into the game. And that's too high for some of us.
And to add to that, they've said the intention is that a standard game is 3 warlords per side... meaning while you can play with the box contents, it still doesn't represent the full extent of how they intend you to play.
Can you cite that?
In the White Dwarf batrep, James Hewitt says it's designed for 3-5 titans per side, so that could be a warlord and two Reavers, say, or a warlord, a reaver and two warhounds.
yeah that's my guess too. 3 warlords might at the high end of standard point levels be doable but I have a hunch that unless you're playing on planet bowling ball and have absolutely no terrain (and even then fire arcs are apparently a thing) that might be unwise as you'll surrender your flanks to the more numerous skirmishers.
"do I wanna fire all my guns and risk 'over heating' etc"
Lol.
Laugh all you like but I'm assuming it'll operate a little like Battletech and similer games with a "power system" and I've seen games won and lost due to people taking gambles with that.
And to add to that, they've said the intention is that a standard game is 3 warlords per side... meaning while you can play with the box contents, it still doesn't represent the full extent of how they intend you to play.
Just need to buy 3 GME boxsets and you can accommodate standard games
Kidding aside, I did a quick look at a basic 2-players bundle: 1 GME box + 1 Rule Sets box. Per player, this gives 1 warlord, 3 knights, 2 large and 2 small sprues of Civitas Imperialis (equivalent to 1 small box or 1/4 of the sector box), and rules, templates and accessories.
Costs per player would be £105, US$ 175, €137,50, AU$294 and NZ$348,6. Savings from buying all elements separate are between 23.5% and 26%.
Laugh all you like but I'm assuming it'll operate a little like Battletech and similer games with a "power system" and I've seen games won and lost due to people taking gambles with that.
I laugh because the original AT was an attempt to cash in on the popularity of Battletech. Now they steal game mechanics directly from it. Its funny.
Where do you get 37.50 for the civitas imperialis ? It's £25 fir the small box, £75 the sector. Sector is 4 lots of the £25 box content. There is still a saving but it's lower.
One of the key things is that the nature of the box means it's likely that this weekend may be the only time to buy from a non GW store at a higher discount and free shipping as they are all competing for a ton of orders.a lot of UK stores are going to be 25-20% this weekend but afterwards it'll be 15-10% discount.
FWIWGW have told stores they should not be taking or offering preorders until it goes live on Saturday as normal. Break it and you risk getting nothing especially when this seems to be a product that stores playing by the rules are saying they've been told they cannot get the free sale numbers they would like.
TwilightSparkles wrote: Where do you get 37.50 for the civitas imperialis ? It's £25 fir the small box, £75 the sector. Sector is 4 lots of the £25 box content. There is still a saving but it's lower.
One of the key things is that the nature of the box means it's likely that this weekend may be the only time to buy from a non GW store at a higher discount and free shipping as they are all competing for a ton of orders.a lot of UK stores are going to be 25-20% this weekend but afterwards it'll be 15-10% discount.
FWIWGW have told stores they should not be taking or offering preorders until it goes live on Saturday as normal. Break it and you risk getting nothing especially when this seems to be a product that stores playing by the rules are saying they've been told they cannot get the free sale numbers they would like.
I get £37.5 by taking 50% of the civitas imperialis sector at £75. According to the terrain sprue count in the GME there are 4 large and 4 small sprues, while in civitas imperialis there are 2 of each and the civitas imperialis sector is said to be 8 of each (kind of worst case scenario)
Absolutely, I tried to get more info from 2 independent stores where I buy and they were adamant not saying anything, so they are definitely contractually bound to secrecy until Saturday 10am
Mr Morden wrote:Waiiting to see the games where the real 40k Whales are playing this with Forgeworld Titans
That would be dope!
That's actually how they first announced AT 18 months ago. The ruleset was finished but the new models were being worked on, so they let attendees at a GW event play a 28mm scale game using the studio titans.
These guys are playing on a narrow board with the older Titans, but considering the new ones are gigantic, this might as well be how the new game plays. The game these guys played simply involved moving up your titans to point blank range in the middle of the board. No creative tactics in sight. But then again, there just isn’t any room for them either. These guys really should have turned the board sideways and and spread their few models out. This is what I mean about cramp spaces. I’ll need space for the new templates, my massive models, bigger buildings, and every game will be predictable. Oh yay I get to manage plasma and wrestle with the machine spirit. I could care less about that. To me it’s just another layer of unnecessary depth to make me feel like I am getting more out of my model because they cost so much and are too big to have too many of, and a for a game limited in scope. So awesome.
Okay, now you're just being disingenious. Ash, the man behind Guerrilla Miniature Games, is well known for being quite fast and loose with the games he plays and making "dumb" game decisions to either just have fun or keep the action going for viewers. If they play on a small table to quickly show off the mechanics of the game for audience who might not have been around in the old days, that does bias the end result towards a crash collision without it being the game's fault. Once again, there is nothing that necessitates you couldn't just as easily play on a larger table in your own games. You only get predictable games if you don't put effort in them on your own part.
And if micromanaging isn't you cup of tea, that's cool, but it is a part of this game and that has been clear from the start. It is an interesting design avenue GW hasn't really touched in years. I would expect something like that to be a compelling part of the game when it has only a few models, so yeah, it's possibly awesome. We'll see.
KTG17 wrote: And I can’t for the life of me understand how anyone can think not having some infantry and tanks running around wouldn’t have added an amazing dynamic to the game.
I do have all of my previous Epid stuff. I will give the new system a go with all of my old models and see how that plays out. I own 15 of the old plastic beetle Warlords shown in the video alone. Then another 4 Reavers and 4 Warhounds.
So screw these new models.
Because that isn't what anyone is really saying? The point is that having the entire scale of things from infantry to god-engines in the same rules system requires compromising either one of those and the intent here was to go all in in the thematic part of fighting with the titans. Just like many historical games usually focus on infantry alone and maybe throw some artillery or mortar support in from off field, here the spotlight is all for the titans, Would it have been cool if this was Epic? Sure, I too like large flanking sweeps and entire armies slowly grinding each other to dust, Am I okay with this game being a different game, because it never said it's going to be Epic? Yes, because I like it for what it seems to be on its own merits.
The point is not that infantry and tanks wouldn't add stuff, it is that the game without them can already be cool and actually lauch at some point instead of spending yet more years in the development limbo as Specialist Games studio struggles to get more space and production time. They don't really have too many hands to work on the project, given that it took two years for one man to create what we have here (modelwise).
I think something people are overlooking in the price discussion is that this is not a normal starter set, in the sense that it's not a collection of easy-to-build models specifically created for a huge box set expected to sell tons of copies. This is a bundle of separate products, and should be compared to other bundles such as the Battleforces, which generally have a savings of around 30% compared to buying the products separately. That's the pricing logic that GW has used here. Consider the Dark Imperium and Soul Wars box sets: how much do you save compared to buying the multi-part versions of the units inside? A lot more than 30%, that's for sure. Probably double that. So that's what people expected for Titanicus. But that's not what Titanicus is, it's just a bundle, and so instead of having the same discounts as Dark Imperium or Soul Wars, it costs the same as those boxes would have if they had full sprues of multi-part kits instead of the easy-to-build variants they have now. Something to consider.
Mymearan wrote: I think something people are overlooking in the price discussion is that this is not a normal starter set, in the sense that it's not a collection of easy-to-build models specifically created for a huge box set expected to sell tons of copies. This is a bundle of separate products, and should be compared to other bundles such as the Battleforces, which generally have a savings of around 30% compared to buying the products separately. That's the pricing logic that GW has used here. Consider the Dark Imperium and Soul Wars box sets: how much do you save compared to buying the multi-part versions of the units inside? A lot more than 30%, that's for sure. Probably double that. So that's what people expected for Titanicus. But that's not what Titanicus is, it's just a bundle, and so instead of having the same discounts as Dark Imperium or Soul Wars, it costs the same as those boxes would have if they had full sprues of multi-part kits instead of the easy-to-build variants they have now. Something to consider.
Exactly. The best analogy to 40k would be if they took the Knight: Renegade box (with 2 big knights plus terrain) and threw in a full size 40k rulebook, dice, counters and a pair of Armiger models. That wouldn't be too far off the GME price either. However it's not really a 'starter' box when models are enough for one person to have a substantial army for an average game. In both cases you'd be pushing 1500pts with everything on one side.
Huh. Watched the Twitch demo game last night and there was such a hilarious "Oh, GW you muppets" moment.
One of the viewers asked these two guys (who discussed how they had been playtesting the game) in the chat... "Can you field an army of just knight banners?"
The players response was something along the lines of "Well.. I guess so? It might be pretty bad. I've never seen it done. You might have to get used to losing a lot! HAHA!"
And then the very next turn a banner of 3 knights flanked a Warlord titan, attacked it from the rear and pretty much smashed it to pieces! They didn't deal the killing blow but they did most of the work.
I do feel like there might possibly (hopefully?) have been a rules error when doing the Knight combat - they seemed to be surprisingly deadly in combat. Void shields don't count and they can target the body for maximum damage.
They die like ants at range but your Warlord doesn't get that many shots, and once a Knight is within about 10" the Warlord literally can't turn fast enough or move fast enough to do anything apart from shoot them with its defensive guns.
Anyway... it may be that the actual designers HAVE thought about this and tested it and stuff... and the guys they had playing it were less experienced... but it was just amusing to see they had not even considered that people might say "screw warlords they cost too much, let's just take loads of little guys".
Mymearan wrote: I think something people are overlooking in the price discussion is that this is not a normal starter set, in the sense that it's not a collection of easy-to-build models specifically created for a huge box set expected to sell tons of copies. This is a bundle of separate products, and should be compared to other bundles such as the Battleforces, which generally have a savings of around 30% compared to buying the products separately. That's the pricing logic that GW has used here. Consider the Dark Imperium and Soul Wars box sets: how much do you save compared to buying the multi-part versions of the units inside? A lot more than 30%, that's for sure. Probably double that. So that's what people expected for Titanicus. But that's not what Titanicus is, it's just a bundle, and so instead of having the same discounts as Dark Imperium or Soul Wars, it costs the same as those boxes would have if they had full sprues of multi-part kits instead of the easy-to-build variants they have now. Something to consider.
another thing that occured to me that likely influences the price... GW proably knows this game is going to be niche as hell. Consider the number of "40k is too complex" complaints you see on places like this, even 8th edition some people say is getting overly complex. frankly anyone who thinks that should proably stay WAAAAAAAAAY away from AT. If this is an 80s style table top game, it's just gonna be too complex for a lot of people, but the people who like it I suspect GW is banking on being pretty dedicated
Silentz wrote: Huh. Watched the Twitch demo game last night and there was such a hilarious "Oh, GW you muppets" moment.
One of the viewers asked these two guys (who discussed how they had been playtesting the game) in the chat... "Can you field an army of just knight banners?"
The players response was something along the lines of "Well.. I guess so? It might be pretty bad. I've never seen it done. You might have to get used to losing a lot! HAHA!"
And then the very next turn a banner of 3 knights flanked a Warlord titan, attacked it from the rear and pretty much smashed it to pieces! They didn't deal the killing blow but they did most of the work.
I do feel like there might possibly (hopefully?) have been a rules error when doing the Knight combat - they seemed to be surprisingly deadly in combat. Void shields don't count and they can target the body for maximum damage.
They die like ants at range but your Warlord doesn't get that many shots, and once a Knight is within about 10" the Warlord literally can't turn fast enough or move fast enough to do anything apart from shoot them with its defensive guns.
Anyway... it may be that the actual designers HAVE thought about this and tested it and stuff... and the guys they had playing it were less experienced... but it was just amusing to see they had not even considered that people might say "screw warlords they cost too much, let's just take loads of little guys".
I'd say the thing to take away from that match is that the players were kind of dolts, really Just using the multishot (10 or so?) apocalypse launchers instead of volcano cannons against the knights or wiping them off first while letting the other Warlord beat you a bit would've been more tactically sound, as the current forces didn't really allow for screening. In a normal game, I'd wager having a Reaver with a lot of small dakka would be quite good at killing too brave knights if they approach uncautiously.
I don't mind the knights being deadly in combat, as that is how they should operate. Insignificant gnats to be casually crushed, but not something to be ignored as they will saw your legs off if you let them engage. They allow for interesting maneuvers on the field and require the larger titans to ponder what hey're doing instead of sitting tight and blasting away. That is good for the game.
Silentz wrote: Huh. Watched the Twitch demo game last night and there was such a hilarious "Oh, GW you muppets" moment.
One of the viewers asked these two guys (who discussed how they had been playtesting the game) in the chat... "Can you field an army of just knight banners?"
The players response was something along the lines of "Well.. I guess so? It might be pretty bad. I've never seen it done. You might have to get used to losing a lot! HAHA!"
And then the very next turn a banner of 3 knights flanked a Warlord titan, attacked it from the rear and pretty much smashed it to pieces! They didn't deal the killing blow but they did most of the work.
I do feel like there might possibly (hopefully?) have been a rules error when doing the Knight combat - they seemed to be surprisingly deadly in combat. Void shields don't count and they can target the body for maximum damage.
They die like ants at range but your Warlord doesn't get that many shots, and once a Knight is within about 10" the Warlord literally can't turn fast enough or move fast enough to do anything apart from shoot them with its defensive guns.
Anyway... it may be that the actual designers HAVE thought about this and tested it and stuff... and the guys they had playing it were less experienced... but it was just amusing to see they had not even considered that people might say "screw warlords they cost too much, let's just take loads of little guys".
I'd say the thing to take away from that match is that the players were kind of dolts, really Just using the multishot (10 or so?) apocalypse launchers instead of volcano cannons against the knights or wiping them off first while letting the other Warlord beat you a bit would've been more tactically sound, as the current forces didn't really allow for screening. In a normal game, I'd wager having a Reaver with a lot of small dakka would be quite good at killing too brave knights if they approach uncautiously.
I don't mind the knights being deadly in combat, as that is how they should operate. Insignificant gnats to be casually crushed, but not something to be ignored as they will saw your legs off if you let them engage. They allow for interesting maneuvers on the field and require the larger titans to ponder what hey're doing instead of sitting tight and blasting away. That is good for the game.
Agreed. Knights NEED to be a threat, ideally AT should be a bit rock paper scissors necessitating a balanced force
Mymearan wrote: I think something people are overlooking in the price discussion is that this is not a normal starter set, in the sense that it's not a collection of easy-to-build models specifically created for a huge box set expected to sell tons of copies. This is a bundle of separate products, and should be compared to other bundles such as the Battleforces, which generally have a savings of around 30% compared to buying the products separately.
How about Kill Team? It's also a bundle with a ruleset. So is the Renegade game.
Mymearan wrote: I think something people are overlooking in the price discussion is that this is not a normal starter set, in the sense that it's not a collection of easy-to-build models specifically created for a huge box set expected to sell tons of copies. This is a bundle of separate products, and should be compared to other bundles such as the Battleforces, which generally have a savings of around 30% compared to buying the products separately.
How about Kill Team? It's also a bundle with a ruleset. So is the Renegade game.
Renegade only comes with the free 12-page core rules plus some custom ones for Knight duels. You would need the £35 rulebook separately to play 40k proper.
And then the very next turn a banner of 3 knights flanked a Warlord titan, attacked it from the rear and pretty much smashed it to pieces! They didn't deal the killing blow but they did most of the work.
I do feel like there might possibly (hopefully?) have been a rules error when doing the Knight combat - they seemed to be surprisingly deadly in combat. Void shields don't count and they can target the body for maximum damage.
Sure would be neat if it gave me that message instead of just failing to load over and over.
Edit: And it expects PAYMENT to view their archived videos, that’s hilarious.
Yeah the Twitch error message is very poor. Even after you subscribe it takes a while to come online. And I wouldn't pay for it either but as a free benefit of Prime it's pretty good.
Sure would be neat if it gave me that message instead of just failing to load over and over.
Edit: And it expects PAYMENT to view their archived videos, that’s hilarious.
They follow the business model used by Geek and Sundry, which is the largest tabletop channel on Twitch, 3rd place on Twitch Subscribers count behind Shroud and Ninja. Which is insane considered their viewer and total view are extremely low compared to the other top streamers
Mymearan wrote: I think something people are overlooking in the price discussion is that this is not a normal starter set, in the sense that it's not a collection of easy-to-build models specifically created for a huge box set expected to sell tons of copies. This is a bundle of separate products, and should be compared to other bundles such as the Battleforces, which generally have a savings of around 30% compared to buying the products separately.
How about Kill Team? It's also a bundle with a ruleset. So is the Renegade game.
Renegade only comes with the free 12-page core rules plus some custom ones for Knight duels. You would need the £35 rulebook separately to play 40k proper.
Out of three 40k and AoS starters, only one comes with the full rules to play the "game proper". And if you're comparing with other bundles of spearate products, the only ones that come to mind are KT and SWA, I think, and the Horus Heresy games that come bundled with an actual game but have no 30k/40k rules (the rules for Necromunda and Blood Bowl aren't being sold separately at the moment, I think?).
Yeah as this gets closer it’s a tricky decision to go or not go for the set. If I want two warlords, then the set amounts to the models plus a £5 ruleset, but if I go for one warlord the ruleset costs £30 more than it would in the set.
As far as I can tell, the only things the grandmaster set has besides the models, rule box and terrain (which I have no use for) is some quick reference sheets and a sample chapter, right?
Taking the terrain out of the picture the discount is unimpressive, but it would be an extra £30 if I skipped an extra warlord now then picked one up later. If they come out with an Imperator at some point I absolutely want a second warlord to flank it. In game, I don’t have a clear enough picture of army composition and game size to know if I’d regularly want to field two warlords.
). This of course will help create an impression of low availability due to unseen high demand regardless of how well pre-orders do. If my suspicions are right and the system does not move well, then they already have the established process of moving the remaining product to the last chance to buy wall within a month of the release and then finally back to warehouse to wither away in quite ignominy and thus avoiding the embarrassment of another Dreadfleet. The Reaver will get a web only release and we will never see the warhound. However, 
