Garrac wrote: So, are there rumours about the release date of the codex?
Somewhere between Soon(tm) and Not Too Far Off.
I suspect Skaven-Chaos-Sylvaneth-Heresy, but could be talked into about any order
Though, on second thought. Skaven and Sylvaneth are 'officially' road mapped as summer releases, so probably not. Nighthaunt and Daughters and LotR spacing out Chaos and Heresy.
THough I can see Heresy as the first big summer release (maybe getting pipped at the post by skaven because they're inconsequential)
I would have previously pegged Sylvaneth & Skaven as a double release but with Sylvaneth getting all those new kits I am thinking they will be first with Skaven later. Heresy... have they confirmed it will be this year, even? I suspect it would be fall at the earliest.
But Sylvaneth will still be after the Nighthaunt & DoK books, which look to be after Knights. So I'd say CSM are going to hit pre order this month.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I would have previously pegged Sylvaneth & Skaven as a double release but with Sylvaneth getting all those new kits I am thinking they will be first with Skaven later. Heresy... have they confirmed it will be this year, even? I suspect it would be fall at the earliest.
But Sylvaneth will still be after the Nighthaunt & DoK books, which look to be after Knights. So I'd say CSM are going to hit pre order this month.
They wouldn’t have shown us the Heresy stuff if it wasn’t this year and wasn’t relatively soon. They’re doing games with the new rules on Saturday at the event (I think, might be conflating 2 events there). It’ll most likely be June/July in the big new edition slot that a 40k or AoS edition would take up.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I would have previously pegged Sylvaneth & Skaven as a double release but with Sylvaneth getting all those new kits I am thinking they will be first with Skaven later. Heresy... have they confirmed it will be this year, even? I suspect it would be fall at the earliest.
But Sylvaneth will still be after the Nighthaunt & DoK books, which look to be after Knights. So I'd say CSM are going to hit pre order this month.
Pretty sure HH will be this year. They've delved too far into model reveals (bar the old terminators, basically)
That said, I couldn't remember the date of the HH tournament at Warhammer World, so did some digging. Its July 23 & 24th, and its the previous edition.
I doubt very much they'll do a previous edition tournament after launch (especially right after launch) so pencil HH in for August.
CSM Codex... yeah, preorder this month. Probably after at least one AoS book and the LotR things.
With the caveat that we'll get a week or two of 'hype' articles, so preorder on the 28th and release in June wouldn't be shocking.
spiralingcadaver wrote: IDK why people are saying Abbadon isn't leader material... Before being supersized, and arguably mostly still the case, he's defined as a terminator who does the impossible and unites (if temporarily) the legions again and again, is the successor to the guy who united the legions the first time, his signature weapon is the other guy's weapon--again a symbol of leadership--and even the gods are OK with sharing him. I don't really care for BL but it seems pretty obvious that he fits that role.
I'd say Drach'nyen is more Abaddon's signature weapon than the Talon of Horus. Which is symbolic of itself - screw Horus. He failed.
But at least Horus had the good sense to only fail once. Abaddon's been spending 10,000 years failing.
spiralingcadaver wrote: IDK why people are saying Abbadon isn't leader material... Before being supersized, and arguably mostly still the case, he's defined as a terminator who does the impossible and unites (if temporarily) the legions again and again, is the successor to the guy who united the legions the first time, his signature weapon is the other guy's weapon--again a symbol of leadership--and even the gods are OK with sharing him. I don't really care for BL but it seems pretty obvious that he fits that role.
I'd say Drach'nyen is more Abaddon's signature weapon than the Talon of Horus. Which is symbolic of itself - screw Horus. He failed.
But at least Horus had the good sense to only fail once. Abaddon's been spending 10,000 years failing.
10,000 Years of failing only got him from First Captain of a broken legion to Master of the Black Legion, Warmaster of Chaos, and created the Great Rift. What a loser
spiralingcadaver wrote: IDK why people are saying Abbadon isn't leader material... Before being supersized, and arguably mostly still the case, he's defined as a terminator who does the impossible and unites (if temporarily) the legions again and again, is the successor to the guy who united the legions the first time, his signature weapon is the other guy's weapon--again a symbol of leadership--and even the gods are OK with sharing him. I don't really care for BL but it seems pretty obvious that he fits that role.
I'd say Drach'nyen is more Abaddon's signature weapon than the Talon of Horus. Which is symbolic of itself - screw Horus. He failed.
But at least Horus had the good sense to only fail once. Abaddon's been spending 10,000 years failing.
Tell me everything you know about the lore is from memes, without telling me everything you know is from memes.
spiralingcadaver wrote: IDK why people are saying Abbadon isn't leader material... Before being supersized, and arguably mostly still the case, he's defined as a terminator who does the impossible and unites (if temporarily) the legions again and again, is the successor to the guy who united the legions the first time, his signature weapon is the other guy's weapon--again a symbol of leadership--and even the gods are OK with sharing him. I don't really care for BL but it seems pretty obvious that he fits that role.
I'd say Drach'nyen is more Abaddon's signature weapon than the Talon of Horus. Which is symbolic of itself - screw Horus. He failed.
But at least Horus had the good sense to only fail once. Abaddon's been spending 10,000 years failing.
Tell me everything you know about the lore is from memes, without telling me everything you know is from memes.
spiralingcadaver wrote: IDK why people are saying Abbadon isn't leader material... Before being supersized, and arguably mostly still the case, he's defined as a terminator who does the impossible and unites (if temporarily) the legions again and again, is the successor to the guy who united the legions the first time, his signature weapon is the other guy's weapon--again a symbol of leadership--and even the gods are OK with sharing him. I don't really care for BL but it seems pretty obvious that he fits that role.
I'd say Drach'nyen is more Abaddon's signature weapon than the Talon of Horus. Which is symbolic of itself - screw Horus. He failed.
But at least Horus had the good sense to only fail once. Abaddon's been spending 10,000 years failing.
10,000 Years of failing only got him from First Captain of a broken legion to Master of the Black Legion, Warmaster of Chaos, and created the Great Rift. What a loser
Not only is the Imperium still standing (if divided), but he couldn't even kill Calgar properly. He was more concerned about his ship than securing victory.
Lol yeah he totally should have killed Calgar instead of making sure the most powerful vessel in his fleet, one of the rarest classes in existence, wasn't blown up. Totally a should ditch the Vengeful Spirit for like a Cobra Destroyer or something.
Most of the Marines, with the Greater Possessed, were on one sprue, the Master of Possession on another, and the Oblits and Venomcrawler on a third.
All they'd need to do is put out a daemon reinforcements box with the sprue for the Oblits and Venomcrawler. It's odd, but honestly... well, that's all we can hope for until they redo those kits to have... options.
Gert wrote: Lol yeah he totally should have killed Calgar instead of making sure the most powerful vessel in his fleet, one of the rarest classes in existence, wasn't blown up. Totally a should ditch the Vengeful Spirit for like a Cobra Destroyer or something.
It’s the only way to keep his reputation from being ruled by memes
Manfred von Drakken wrote: Not only is the Imperium still standing (if divided), but he couldn't even kill Calgar properly. He was more concerned about his ship than securing victory.
That only shows how Calgar is just another foe for Abbadon. After all, Calgar will eventually die out of sheer age; his defeat is an inevitability. So what if it happens now or centuries from now, such timeframes are a pittance to the Warmaster.
Honestly I only wanted Abaddon to get the rule like shadowsun so we could see how people run him as other famous characters. Like I was gonna use him as Decimus for instance, a Word Bearer player might make him Erebus or Kor Phaeron, etc. As well as stuff like kitbashes/conversions to make him look like he's from various legions.
cole1114 wrote: Honestly I only wanted Abaddon to get the rule like shadowsun so we could see how people run him as other famous characters. Like I was gonna use him as Decimus for instance, a Word Bearer player might make him Erebus or Kor Phaeron, etc. As well as stuff like kitbashes/conversions to make him look like he's from various legions.
It's really a shame that the "just use this named character datasheet as whatever fits your army" rule from 5th has gone away.
cole1114 wrote: Honestly I only wanted Abaddon to get the rule like shadowsun so we could see how people run him as other famous characters. Like I was gonna use him as Decimus for instance, a Word Bearer player might make him Erebus or Kor Phaeron, etc. As well as stuff like kitbashes/conversions to make him look like he's from various legions.
It's really a shame that the "just use this named character datasheet as whatever fits your army" rule from 5th has gone away.
I mean, it hasn't exactly gone away. GW just doesn't encourage modeling creativity as much.
With that said, as much hate as Ward gets by people that get all their info from 1d4chan, the 5th edition Space Marine codex getting all that flexibility with mishmashing named characters was pretty great. I ran Pedro Kantor with two squads of Sternguard and Tyberos with some Assault Terminators. Did it make sense? Absolutely not. Was it fun? Absolutely.
Well seeing named characters tend to have keyword locked for certain sub faction which prevents units from getting free rules...it kind has of gone away.
It wasn't a rule that you could take named characters with anything, there just wasn't a rule saying you couldn't.
It was removed because people could do things like Super Friends or run Azrael in a Guard army giving a huge blob of guardsmen a 4+ Invuln.
Gert wrote: It wasn't a rule that you could take named characters with anything, there just wasn't a rule saying you couldn't.
It was removed because people could do things like Super Friends or run Azrael in a Guard army giving a huge blob of guardsmen a 4+ Invuln.
They more mean using the Calgar rules for chapter master of their salamanders successors or something, not so much souping just using counts-as for "their guy" but there were a lot less subfaction gates back then.
spiralingcadaver wrote: IDK why people are saying Abbadon isn't leader material... Before being supersized, and arguably mostly still the case, he's defined as a terminator who does the impossible and unites (if temporarily) the legions again and again, is the successor to the guy who united the legions the first time, his signature weapon is the other guy's weapon--again a symbol of leadership--and even the gods are OK with sharing him. I don't really care for BL but it seems pretty obvious that he fits that role.
I'd say Drach'nyen is more Abaddon's signature weapon than the Talon of Horus. Which is symbolic of itself - screw Horus. He failed.
But at least Horus had the good sense to only fail once. Abaddon's been spending 10,000 years failing.
Tell me everything you know about the lore is from memes, without telling me everything you know is from memes.
spiralingcadaver wrote: IDK why people are saying Abbadon isn't leader material... Before being supersized, and arguably mostly still the case, he's defined as a terminator who does the impossible and unites (if temporarily) the legions again and again, is the successor to the guy who united the legions the first time, his signature weapon is the other guy's weapon--again a symbol of leadership--and even the gods are OK with sharing him. I don't really care for BL but it seems pretty obvious that he fits that role.
I'd say Drach'nyen is more Abaddon's signature weapon than the Talon of Horus. Which is symbolic of itself - screw Horus. He failed.
But at least Horus had the good sense to only fail once. Abaddon's been spending 10,000 years failing.
Tell me everything you know about the lore is from memes, without telling me everything you know is from memes.
Vargheist wrote: So we know that Kill Team renegade guard can be used in CSM codex, but did they mention if the kit is multipart?
Yes, the kit has options to make specialists for kill team, or standard chaos guardsmen with lasguns. The commissar and ogryn only build one way, but have a couple of cosmetic options.
With this, the ONLY THING WE NEED IS BIKERS
WHERE MY CHAOS BIKERS ATGW PLEASE I'M BEGGING YOU
Holding out for maybe a reveal on Monday that they held back, it's the only thing from the otherwise 100% accurate chaos rumors.
Vargheist wrote: So we know that Kill Team renegade guard can be used in CSM codex, but did they mention if the kit is multipart?
It is, even if they didn't mention it. You can see where they reused the CAD designs from BSF (on a new sprue) and a couple places where the heads & arms are just stuck on with blu-tack. The guy firing a rifle over a knife is really distinct, as is the sergeant.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Although he wasn't part of the BIG RUMORDUMP, there's also Huron. That's got to be who that claw for the Rumour Engine belongs to.
It might be. I'm still holding out hope for a secret daemon engine (even just a multipart version of the venomcrawler), or maybe some sort of biker thing (a warp smith on bike!). No idea why they wouldn't show off the last couple things, though. (and that includes Huron, if it is indeed him)
Gadzilla666 wrote: Although he wasn't part of the BIG RUMORDUMP, there's also Huron. That's got to be who that claw for the Rumour Engine belongs to.
It might be. I'm still holding out hope for a secret daemon engine (even just a multipart version of the venomcrawler), or maybe some sort of biker thing (a warp smith on bike!). No idea why they wouldn't show off the last couple things, though. (and that includes Huron, if it is indeed him)
Could be that they're holding some back to show later (remember how long they stretched out the Eldar reveals), or they'll be tied to a different release. It's gw, there's no telling.
Edit: If they are releasing a new Huron model, it could be possible that they're saving its reveal to coincide with the new Huron novel.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Although he wasn't part of the BIG RUMORDUMP, there's also Huron. That's got to be who that claw for the Rumour Engine belongs to.
It might be. I'm still holding out hope for a secret daemon engine (even just a multipart version of the venomcrawler), or maybe some sort of biker thing (a warp smith on bike!). No idea why they wouldn't show off the last couple things, though. (and that includes Huron, if it is indeed him)
Could be that they're holding some back to show later (remember how long they stretched out the Eldar reveals), or they'll be tied to a different release. It's gw, there's no telling.
Edit: If they are releasing a new Huron model, it could be possible that they're saving its reveal to coincide with the new Huron novel.
But even if the preview could be the right hand (it looks left, I'd be surprised if they arbitrarily changed that) why would the limited edition book cover feature his current design (power fist with a clear chaos star palm) vs the new design (long talons around the flamer)? It seems really odd that they would redesign the look so dramatically to coincide with a book featuring the old one.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Although he wasn't part of the BIG RUMORDUMP, there's also Huron. That's got to be who that claw for the Rumour Engine belongs to.
It might be. I'm still holding out hope for a secret daemon engine (even just a multipart version of the venomcrawler), or maybe some sort of biker thing (a warp smith on bike!). No idea why they wouldn't show off the last couple things, though. (and that includes Huron, if it is indeed him)
Could be that they're holding some back to show later (remember how long they stretched out the Eldar reveals), or they'll be tied to a different release. It's gw, there's no telling.
Edit: If they are releasing a new Huron model, it could be possible that they're saving its reveal to coincide with the new Huron novel.
But even if the preview could be the right hand (it looks left, I'd be surprised if they arbitrarily changed that) why would the limited edition book cover feature his current design (power fist with a clear chaos star palm) vs the new design (long talons around the flamer)? It seems really odd that they would redesign the look so dramatically to coincide with a book featuring the old one.
Hmm, I haven't seen that. Well, maybe it isn't Huron's claw after all. But I do seem to remember Clockworkchris saying that his "hand" worked like a claw in the new codex instead of a power fist. And pictures can be reversed. I'll see if I can find the quote.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Although he wasn't part of the BIG RUMORDUMP, there's also Huron. That's got to be who that claw for the Rumour Engine belongs to.
It might be. I'm still holding out hope for a secret daemon engine (even just a multipart version of the venomcrawler), or maybe some sort of biker thing (a warp smith on bike!). No idea why they wouldn't show off the last couple things, though. (and that includes Huron, if it is indeed him)
Could be that they're holding some back to show later (remember how long they stretched out the Eldar reveals), or they'll be tied to a different release. It's gw, there's no telling.
Edit: If they are releasing a new Huron model, it could be possible that they're saving its reveal to coincide with the new Huron novel.
But even if the preview could be the right hand (it looks left, I'd be surprised if they arbitrarily changed that) why would the limited edition book cover feature his current design (power fist with a clear chaos star palm) vs the new design (long talons around the flamer)? It seems really odd that they would redesign the look so dramatically to coincide with a book featuring the old one.
The thumb Claw looks like it could be right in the middle (think like a bird talon I guess?) So it could still possibly be Huron.
The selfish part of me hopes Huron gets rules to make him almost auto-include because there's only so much I can do with my proxy guy.
ClockworkZion wrote: Looking at the claw, it's on the wrong side to be Huron. Based on the thumb that's a left hand, but Huron's claw is his right hand:
Spoiler:
They could have flipped the image to throw people off the scent.
ClockworkZion wrote: Looking at the claw, it's on the wrong side to be Huron. Based on the thumb that's a left hand, but Huron's claw is his right hand:
Spoiler:
They could have flipped the image to throw people off the scent.
They could but they haven't done that yet as far as I know.
Sorry if this has been asked already but we do know roughly what month the CSM codex will be releasing? Also, do we have any idea what the PPM will be for Traitor Guardsmen? I'm looking forward to incorporating my BSF models into a Chaos army.
The Red Hobbit wrote: Sorry if this has been asked already but we do know roughly what month the CSM codex will be releasing? Also, do we have any idea what the PPM will be for Traitor Guardsmen?
1. Later that we want.
2. Far more than they're worth.
If there is indeed a "traitor" guardsmen entry in the Chaos codex (not just cultists) what are the chances of anything else from the IG making its way in there? Leman Russ perhaps?
cuda1179 wrote: If there is indeed a "traitor" guardsmen entry in the Chaos codex (not just cultists) what are the chances of anything else from the IG making its way in there? Leman Russ perhaps?
Again so far all the cultists and traitor guard releases point torwards being reimagined versions of already former available options/listiterations:
Command squad of the cultists, f.e. is the classic higher echelons of how chaos cults work with priest, iconbearer and magister.
The smaller possessed / mutants and biger mutants hark back to preciscly the initial LatD list and have also been part of R&H forces since some time.
The "Enforcer" as they name the chaos commissar is basically the vraks name for them that stuck around for the chaos equivalent of morale officers. The fact that he also is and has so far been an HQ slot may well indicate that we could look at a sub list, which may or may not indeed get access to guard choices via regiment swap, indeed the keyword "militarum traitoris" kinda indicates atleast verbally a connection so we may well look at rules that allow for keyword swaps to gain access to guard heavy weaponry and vehicles.
the only thing really missing would be a kit of traitor ogryns these are , next to priests and rogue psykers (which arguably are covered with the cult command squad) the only thing that is missing for a full R&H/ traitor guard list we had access in the past.
It'd be basically 0 effort for gw to add such a sublist / subrule. Probably with access to build a bear trait? with some stipulations on what you are not allowed to pick?
Certainly would generate a lot of good will. Probably will require the IG codex though.
I'm no leaker, but I would bet CSM are going to be released this month, since, acording to the leaks, HH will start on june. I don't think they'll release both at the same time (may happen still)
Gert wrote: Imperial/Chaos Knights are this month.
CSM will either be June or July.
The it would be june, because we already know that, acording to the leaks, sylvaneth and the new starterbox will come on july. (and that month there are more HH releases)
Gert wrote: Imperial/Chaos Knights are this month.
CSM will either be June or July.
The it would be june, because we already know that, acording to the leaks, sylvaneth and the new starterbox will come on july. (and that moth there are more HH releases)
Gert wrote: Imperial/Chaos Knights are this month.
CSM will either be June or July.
The it would be june, because we already know that, acording to the leaks, sylvaneth and the new starterbox will come on july. (and that moth there are more HH releases)
Gert wrote: Imperial/Chaos Knights are this month.
CSM will either be June or July.
The it would be june, because we already know that, acording to the leaks, sylvaneth and the new starterbox will come on july. (and that moth there are more HH releases)
Gert wrote: Imperial/Chaos Knights are this month.
CSM will either be June or July.
The it would be june, because we already know that, acording to the leaks, sylvaneth and the new starterbox will come on july. (and that month there are more HH releases)
Maybe it's my innerhypedself who's talking now
The Heresy box in June.
Yeah, it starts on june, and runs to september.
Huh?
According to the rumours, in june comes out the starter box, and in the rest of the summer there'll be more HH releases.
But as the starterboxes of HH and AoS come in june-july I don't know if GW would pack the CSM, as bug as it is, in between (and it seems there'll be various waves)
Ironically I don't see the knights as a major release. So, I personally thinl that next week we'll have the preorders, or at least by the end of the month
Garrac wrote: Ironically I don't see the knights as a major release. So, I personally thinl that next week we'll have the preorders, or at least by the end of the year
It's a full codex release with new models. Not as many models as Eldar, but more than Tyranids. And it is a paired book release, though knights and chaos knights are quite similar.
We still got 3 weeks of May, and the 30k stuff could be nearer to the end of June. Give a week for Daughters of Khaine and Nighthaunt to finally get their books, a week for the Ash Wastes book to come out alongside those new Squats, and then the Skaven vs Sylvaneth box set to drop, and we could see a release at the first week of June for Chaos Marines.
Why all those things in front of CSM? Because that's just GW's trend. Gotta stuff a bunch of the side games in before 40k can get a step closer to finally having all the codexes updated to 9th ed.
Garrac wrote: Ironically I don't see the knights as a major release. So, I personally thinl that next week we'll have the preorders, or at least by the end of the year
It's a full codex release with new models. Not as many models as Eldar, but more than Tyranids. And it is a paired book release, though knights and chaos knights are quite similar.
It's not a paired book release, it's a limited edition "get it early" army box, the chaos knights models and codex aren't released yet independently. So this is a hyped up one off limited numbers box and a single codex.
I am a bit curious to see if HH or CSM are released first.
If the stream did say June instead of July for HH, then I suspect it's coming before CSM at this point, though I would love to be wrong. I had expected the boxset to be in July like the other major edition stuff was and June would be CSM time.
And GW is going to drag out the HH release hype. The core box will be June, and probably a few weeks alternating with new tanks or infantry squads, with the weapons upgrades released on weeks that focus on AoS releases or Specialist games. And when SM 9.5 comes out, I'd expect the Contempter, Sicaran, and Kratos to all appear in it, possibly making room by merging all the gravis captain entries and rules into a single datasheet.
MajorWesJanson wrote: And GW is going to drag out the HH release hype. The core box will be June, and probably a few weeks alternating with new tanks or infantry squads, with the weapons upgrades released on weeks that focus on AoS releases or Specialist games. And when SM 9.5 comes out, I'd expect the Contempter, Sicaran, and Kratos to all appear in it, possibly making room by merging all the gravis captain entries and rules into a single datasheet.
Look at the bright side.. it's likely to not be over a decade unlike BL and FW. Baby steps!
MajorWesJanson wrote: And GW is going to drag out the HH release hype. The core box will be June, and probably a few weeks alternating with new tanks or infantry squads, with the weapons upgrades released on weeks that focus on AoS releases or Specialist games. And when SM 9.5 comes out, I'd expect the Contempter, Sicaran, and Kratos to all appear in it, possibly making room by merging all the gravis captain entries and rules into a single datasheet.
I fully expect that last sentence to be true. It would be just like gw to stick all of the newly plastic HH units in the codex full of "New" Marines, and "New" marine vehicles that float instead of use treads, while leaving them out of the codex for the Marines that they're currently referring to as "Legionaries" and "Veterans". Simply because they don't. Have. Spikes.
6th and 8th were both June releases. 7th doesn't count because it was essentially 6.5 and 9th was delayed because of Covid. AoS 2 and 3 were both June releases.
Releasing new editions in June gives maximum coverage for the various UK school holiday dates. Scotland starts at the end of June, England/Wales at the end of July. Don't know about the USA.
Um, I see. Then I hope the codex comes at least at the beginning of july. I cant wait
Now im really doubting between the DP and Abaddon. Don't really know if the rumoured changes to DP rules make him better or not. I hope he gets to be released with the CSM's launch
Also, dont really understand the leaked strat, what does it mean?
And, do BL still have the Council of Traitors? Im trying to figure out the army before it comes
Garrac wrote: Um, I see. Then I hope the codex comes at least at the beginning of july. I cant wait
Now im really doubting between the DP and Abaddon. Don't really know if the rumoured changes to DP rules make him better or not. I hope he gets to be released with the CSM's launch
Also, dont really understand the leaked strat, what does it mean?
And, do BL still have the Council of Traitors? Im trying to figure out the army before it comes
Which stratagem are you referring to? And I definitely wouldn't expect the codex until after June 1st, for both the reasons Gert outlined above, as well as putting the release (and any profits from it) within the 3rd fiscal quarter.
Garrac wrote: Um, I see. Then I hope the codex comes at least at the beginning of july. I cant wait
Now im really doubting between the DP and Abaddon. Don't really know if the rumoured changes to DP rules make him better or not. I hope he gets to be released with the CSM's launch
Also, dont really understand the leaked strat, what does it mean?
And, do BL still have the Council of Traitors? Im trying to figure out the army before it comes
Even with all of the information that's been given to us, we don't have all of the factors and little tidbits that could be hiding in the codex.
Hoping ClockworkChris comes through for us. I personally would just love confirmation of whether or not we're going to see Chaos Bikers with this release or not... Tomorrow is pretty much my last hope, since they show new models on Mondays, and if it's not a Chaos Biker, then that'll be a bit sad. It's pretty much the last kit of its age in the Chaos Marine line, setting aside khorne berzerkers and noise marines that we know will be updated with their respective codexes...
Garrac wrote: Um, I see. Then I hope the codex comes at least at the beginning of july. I cant wait
Now im really doubting between the DP and Abaddon. Don't really know if the rumoured changes to DP rules make him better or not. I hope he gets to be released with the CSM's launch
Also, dont really understand the leaked strat, what does it mean?
And, do BL still have the Council of Traitors? Im trying to figure out the army before it comes
Even with all of the information that's been given to us, we don't have all of the factors and little tidbits that could be hiding in the codex.
Hoping ClockworkChris comes through for us. I personally would just love confirmation of whether or not we're going to see Chaos Bikers with this release or not... Tomorrow is pretty much my last hope, since they show new models on Mondays, and if it's not a Chaos Biker, then that'll be a bit sad. It's pretty much the last kit of its age in the Chaos Marine line, setting aside khorne berzerkers and noise marines that we know will be updated with their respective codexes...
If the book isn't until July you have at least 8 Mondays yet.
Was looking for some coverage of the HH Open and found this video of the display cases. Apparently Night Lords were stuck in Customs so they were absent.
ClockworkZion wrote: Was looking for some coverage of the HH Open and found this video of the display cases. Apparently Night Lords were stuck in Customs so they were absent.
Busy terrorizing Thramas, of course.
Thanks for this, all these examples are FANTASTIC.
And I gotta give credit where credit is due: This is how you hype a release. They reached out to a bunch of community members, gave them samples of the product, had them paint up the product in a variety of color schemes to show how all the legions would look in different colors and painting styles, brought all those community members to a big event to show off and then some.
Then, those creators go and tell their fans about the blast they had, show off the pictures, spread the word. Even if someone doesn't follow GW, doesn't go to a Warhammer store and never goes to any forums or WarCom, they now have likely heard about the new Horus Heresy and all the new plastic kits that are coming. That's huge. I'm sure it was a heck of a lot of work to do, but THIS is how you hype a product release, engage the community, and get people excited.
Let's hope we see more of this community outreach in the future.
ClockworkZion wrote: Was looking for some coverage of the HH Open and found this video of the display cases. Apparently Night Lords were stuck in Customs so they were absent.
Spoiler:
Busy terrorizing Thramas, of course.
Thanks for this, all these examples are FANTASTIC.
And I gotta give credit where credit is due: This is how you hype a release. They reached out to a bunch of community members, gave them samples of the product, had them paint up the product in a variety of color schemes to show how all the legions would look in different colors and painting styles, brought all those community members to a big event to show off and then some.
Then, those creators go and tell their fans about the blast they had, show off the pictures, spread the word. Even if someone doesn't follow GW, doesn't go to a Warhammer store and never goes to any forums or WarCom, they now have likely heard about the new Horus Heresy and all the new plastic kits that are coming. That's huge. I'm sure it was a heck of a lot of work to do, but THIS is how you hype a product release, engage the community, and get people excited.
Let's hope we see more of this community outreach in the future.
True then if we balance it off against the asshat walking about posting leaks up from inside GW after they invited them in to partake in the hype, it's a net wash maybe?
ClockworkZion wrote: Was looking for some coverage of the HH Open and found this video of the display cases. Apparently Night Lords were stuck in Customs so they were absent.
Spoiler:
Busy terrorizing Thramas, of course.
Thanks for this, all these examples are FANTASTIC.
And I gotta give credit where credit is due: This is how you hype a release. They reached out to a bunch of community members, gave them samples of the product, had them paint up the product in a variety of color schemes to show how all the legions would look in different colors and painting styles, brought all those community members to a big event to show off and then some.
Then, those creators go and tell their fans about the blast they had, show off the pictures, spread the word. Even if someone doesn't follow GW, doesn't go to a Warhammer store and never goes to any forums or WarCom, they now have likely heard about the new Horus Heresy and all the new plastic kits that are coming. That's huge. I'm sure it was a heck of a lot of work to do, but THIS is how you hype a product release, engage the community, and get people excited.
Let's hope we see more of this community outreach in the future.
True then if we balance it off against the asshat walking about posting leaks up from inside GW after they invited them in to partake in the hype, it's a net wash maybe?
Overall a relatively small fraction of people would have seen those leaks ahead of the event. There are many warhammer hobbyists that don't review forums or discords for leaks, that were still mighty surprised by the announcement that literally came under 24 hours later. I'd still say GW gets the win for the event.
But anyway, that's 30k stuff, this is Chaos Marine rumors.
That said, I do wonder if we're going to get a chaos vehicle upgrade sprue for the new Deimos pattern vehicles...
Something tells me the HH vehicles are unlikely to appear in the CSM book, but I'd love to be proven wrong on that.
I'd love for you to be wrong as well, but I seriously doubt that you will be. They'll probably be in Loyalist Scum 2.0, though. Same as the plastic Contemptor and "Relic" Terminators.
Something tells me the HH vehicles are unlikely to appear in the CSM book, but I'd love to be proven wrong on that.
I'd love for you to be wrong as well, but I seriously doubt that you will be. They'll probably be in Loyalist Scum 2.0, though. Same as the plastic Contemptor and "Relic" Terminators.
A lot of the relic type of stuff will likely be in a new Compendium down the line, which is fine.
But basic stuff, like taking a Rhino or a Predator, well those things are already in the codexes. It's just a matter of giving us a vehicle upgrade sprue to bring them into the realm of 40k, or to make your 30k vehicles look a little more heresy-y.
That said, even an upgrade sprue might be a long way from matching the deimos rhino up with the current aesthetic of 40k chaos marines.
Something tells me the HH vehicles are unlikely to appear in the CSM book, but I'd love to be proven wrong on that.
I'd love for you to be wrong as well, but I seriously doubt that you will be. They'll probably be in Loyalist Scum 2.0, though. Same as the plastic Contemptor and "Relic" Terminators.
A lot of the relic type of stuff will likely be in a new Compendium down the line, which is fine.
But basic stuff, like taking a Rhino or a Predator, well those things are already in the codexes. It's just a matter of giving us a vehicle upgrade sprue to bring them into the realm of 40k, or to make your 30k vehicles look a little more heresy-y.
That said, even an upgrade sprue might be a long way from matching the deimos rhino up with the current aesthetic of 40k chaos marines.
It isn't "fine" if they put them in the loyalist codex, minus Martial Legacy, like they did with the Contemptor, while keeping the actual Veterans of the Long War saddled with that rule. And although the only real difference between a 30k and a 40k Rhino is cosmetic, the 30k Predators get a lot more weapon options than their 40k counterparts. That isn't just a case of "spikes or no spikes".
ClockworkZion wrote: Was looking for some coverage of the HH Open and found this video of the display cases. Apparently Night Lords were stuck in Customs so they were absent.
Spoiler:
Busy terrorizing Thramas, of course.
Thanks for this, all these examples are FANTASTIC.
And I gotta give credit where credit is due: This is how you hype a release. They reached out to a bunch of community members, gave them samples of the product, had them paint up the product in a variety of color schemes to show how all the legions would look in different colors and painting styles, brought all those community members to a big event to show off and then some.
Then, those creators go and tell their fans about the blast they had, show off the pictures, spread the word. Even if someone doesn't follow GW, doesn't go to a Warhammer store and never goes to any forums or WarCom, they now have likely heard about the new Horus Heresy and all the new plastic kits that are coming. That's huge. I'm sure it was a heck of a lot of work to do, but THIS is how you hype a product release, engage the community, and get people excited.
Let's hope we see more of this community outreach in the future.
True then if we balance it off against the asshat walking about posting leaks up from inside GW after they invited them in to partake in the hype, it's a net wash maybe?
No, that's its own kind of hype. He's the 'real deal' who proves how enthusiastic HH fans are.
What he did isn't a 'hype loss' for GW in any way whatsoever.
If it was a different company involved, I'd suspect it was engineered.
cuda1179 wrote: If there is indeed a "traitor" guardsmen entry in the Chaos codex (not just cultists) what are the chances of anything else from the IG making its way in there? Leman Russ perhaps?
Absolutely no chance of a Leman Russ in the codex, potentially some option off a brood brothers detachment style thing? Dunno. Possible but unlikely, I think we would have heard by now.
This is what they think open play is for, three player game - PDF rebellion led by cults rising up after the planetary governor refuses to surrender to the chaos warband on a warship in orbit.
Rebel IG vs loyalist IG on the ground, the loyalists with 50% more points to then be spent on defenses. Third player is then Chaos marines and demons who deep strike in.
cuda1179 wrote: If there is indeed a "traitor" guardsmen entry in the Chaos codex (not just cultists) what are the chances of anything else from the IG making its way in there? Leman Russ perhaps?
Absolutely no chance of a Leman Russ in the codex, potentially some option off a brood brothers detachment style thing? Dunno. Possible but unlikely, I think we would have heard by now.
This is what they think open play is for, three player game - PDF rebellion led by cults rising up after the planetary governor refuses to surrender to the chaos warband on a warship in orbit.
Rebel IG vs loyalist IG on the ground, the loyalists with 50% more points to then be spent on defenses. Third player is then Chaos marines and demons who deep strike in.
Part of this is GW testing the waters to see how well the Traitor Guard sell and how much demand there is for Renegades and Heretics to become their own thing.
Part of it is GW teasing us, holding a carrot on a stick in front of us, so that when they do eventually release a chaos upgrade sprue for astra militarum vehicles, like they did for the genestealer cult, they can make it seem like it's a brand new idea that they just came up with and that it wasn't ravenous fans begging for it for decades.
My thinking is that it's a long-term project. Like, after the Emperor's Children get their own codex. That's gunna be a few more years down the road, and by then they may have expanded a few other things. Then, Chaos Marines undivided will be one thing, then you'll have the Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Death Guard, and Thousand Sons, and THEN finally Renegades and Heretics which will be cultists, traitor guard, spawn, traitor vehicles and such, etc.
I mean look, if they're bringing back Squats, it's just a matter of time until renegades and heretics makes a comeback too.
I don't think GW is testing the waters so much as turning armies into "incubators" for new concepts and armies that can eventually be spun off into standalone factions.
Doing a "Brood Brothers" style list for R&H wouldn't be a problem. That's basically what the current Legends R&H list is, and the 8th edition Index list was the same. The only "different" R&H units were the infantry, which will be pretty much covered by the stuff previewed over WHF. Everything else was borrowed from either the Guard or CSM codexes, or their fw lists.
chaos0xomega wrote: I don't think GW is testing the waters so much as turning armies into "incubators" for new concepts and armies that can eventually be spun off into standalone factions.
Yeah, pretty much. We'll see how it all shakes out over the next decade.
I mean, I personally would just use Vindicators, Predators, and Rhinos alongside the Traitor Guard to represent that theme. Or heck, use the models for Chimeras and Leman Russ tanks and just count them as the various space marine tanks. They're similar enough in size and have similar armaments for some of the sponsons and cannons. Tournaments would probably be the only place you wouldn't be able to do that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I went and double-checked the rumors for Bikers rules against the rules they currently have.
Aside from the extra wound and I think buffed attack stat, they're exactly the same.
Now I gotta shake off this mindset where I was hopeful for something due to a rumor, didn't take enough salt, had confirmation bias when it came to all the other things that were proven true, and hyped myself up only to get disappointed by lack of reveal or release so that I can still enjoy the hobby without becoming a whiny idiot. Then, if we do end up getting bikers with this release, it'll be a pleasant surprise.
These are the mental hoops I jump through as a rumor-seeker in this hobby.
I enjoy reading rumors, like working on a puzzle, but playing Sisters through three editions taught me to not to actually expect anything. Just better that way.
Garrac wrote: Um, I see. Then I hope the codex comes at least at the beginning of july. I cant wait
Now im really doubting between the DP and Abaddon. Don't really know if the rumoured changes to DP rules make him better or not. I hope he gets to be released with the CSM's launch
Also, dont really understand the leaked strat, what does it mean?
And, do BL still have the Council of Traitors? Im trying to figure out the army before it comes
Which stratagem are you referring to? And I definitely wouldn't expect the codex until after June 1st, for both the reasons Gert outlined above, as well as putting the release (and any profits from it) within the 3rd fiscal quarter.
It's one from the suplements. It says that if you run a Chaos Lord/DP/Abbie and a DA and a Sorcerer, you can give them aditional bonuses or something like that (just came from an 8 years retirement, Im not entirely sure about these new things in the rules)
I ask this becs right now Im preparing forces, and I need to know if I'll have to buy a Sorcerer miniature (or use the MoP as such)
About the bikers: two weeks ago I saw them out of stock at the webpage. But now it's available again, as well as the EC's kits. If someone wants to scratch...
You should get a Sorcerer anyway. Wizards are cool and part of the Black Legion background is that Abaddon has huge numbers of Sorcerers in his forces so he can use them to predict the outcomes of battles, and then rig them in his favour.
ClockworkZion wrote: With the kits moving to plastic it'd be nice to see them add the HH units into the CSM book but I'm not holding my breath.
There is absolutely 0 chance of that.
For example, the Sicarian (Kratos now) is "all but extinct in the 41ist millenia". GW clearly do want to separate HH from 40K, with a completely different aesthetic but also a different concept.
The Imperium is now regressive and many things have been lost. Weapons which used to be common (volkite weaponry for example) are now considered to be relics and are only accessible to a select few ultra-elite units. The Traitor Legions have, more or less, been fully corrupted by Chaos and they decided to ditch a lot of old patterns in favor of demon-based weaponry / warp-based weaponry.
Selfcontrol wrote: For example, the Sicarian (Kratos now) is "all but extinct in the 41ist millenia". GW clearly do want to separate HH from 40K, with a completely different aesthetic but also a different concept.
Point of order - the Sicaran and Kratos are still different vehicles.
I wish it wasn’t a helbrute, not a big fan of the model, but I’m not sure what I’d rather instead in terms of what it would be likely to be. Some of the new Possessed or something maybe.
ImAGeek wrote: I wish it wasn’t a helbrute, not a big fan of the model, but I’m not sure what I’d rather instead in terms of what it would be likely to be. Some of the new Possessed or something maybe.
I would've preferred Terminators or Chosen over the Helbrute or Dark Apostle.
dan2026 wrote: They have to release the Obliterators, Venomcrawler and Master of Possession separately, surely?
Without brand new kits for oblits and the VC (which there is no indication of) they can't, they share sprues with the greater possessed and the mono-pose marines.
dan2026 wrote: They have to release the Obliterators, Venomcrawler and Master of Possession separately, surely?
MoP, sure. It was a separate piece.
The Oblits & Venomcrawler bits were all jumbled up with each other and the Greater Possessed and snap fit basic Chaos Marines. So they're all or nothing. Unless they redo the sprues entirely.
dan2026 wrote: They have to release the Obliterators, Venomcrawler and Master of Possession separately, surely?
Without brand new kits for oblits and the VC (which there is no indication of) they can't, they share sprues with the greater possessed and the mono-pose marines.
As far as I know the Oblits and VC share a sprue but don't share it with the mono-pose marines.
Greater Possessed aren't a thing anymore and the monopose CSMs aren't necessary, so it's likely, they'll release the Oblits and VC as a boxset.
I'd say that's a pretty decent box to start a CSM army with. It's all pretty iconic stuff, without being tied in to a particular legion, and it's all new models.
dan2026 wrote: They have to release the Obliterators, Venomcrawler and Master of Possession separately, surely?
Without brand new kits for oblits and the VC (which there is no indication of) they can't, they share sprues with the greater possessed and the mono-pose marines.
As far as I know the Oblits and VC share a sprue but don't share it with the mono-pose marines.
Greater Possessed aren't a thing anymore and the monopose CSMs aren't necessary, so it's likely, they'll release the Oblits and VC as a boxset.
Why would GW jumble all the pieces up like this?
Surely they'd want to release them separately at some point and this prvents them doing so.
blood reaper wrote: Very surprised but happy to see they actually used the mulit-part models, rather than the gakky snap-fit sculpts.
But not the kill team add-on sprue, despite those rules being in the codex.
Nurr.
I wonder.
Since you can't get the monopose Chaos Space Marines from them anymore, does that mean CSM squads will no longer be able to take an autocannon? Because no model = no rules.
blood reaper wrote: Very surprised but happy to see they actually used the mulit-part models, rather than the gakky snap-fit sculpts.
But not the kill team add-on sprue, despite those rules being in the codex.
Nurr.
I wonder.
Since you can't get the monopose Chaos Space Marines from them anymore, does that mean CSM squads will no longer be able to take an autocannon? Because no model = no rules.
GWs no model no rules sentiment is bizarre and frankly completely uncoordinated - I believe you will be able to keep it because Havocs get them, and the Havoc kit is designed to be mixed and matched with the standard CSMs.
...but I would take an immense degree of joy in seeing the idiots who support this kind of approach having to defend the loss of a classic option using the standard GW apologist arguments.
Crispy78 wrote: I'd say that's a pretty decent box to start a CSM army with. It's all pretty iconic stuff, without being tied in to a particular legion, and it's all new models.
Its fine. Its just... eh. Now that the marines (sorry, the legionnaires) have the add-on sprue, I'm gonna be irked every time they're in a box without it.
Helbrutes and havocs aren't all that new anymore (and personally I still resent the redesign of havocs into a 5 man unit that isn't quite the same as the rest of the army)
Obligatory character is obligatory. Just... I dunno. There's something about this combo of units that feels weird. They're all technically legion agnostic (though the apostle always feels like a word bearer), but in combination, they don't feel right for anybody.
blood reaper wrote: Very surprised but happy to see they actually used the mulit-part models, rather than the gakky snap-fit sculpts.
But not the kill team add-on sprue, despite those rules being in the codex.
Nurr.
I wonder.
Since you can't get the monopose Chaos Space Marines from them anymore, does that mean CSM squads will no longer be able to take an autocannon? Because no model = no rules.
GWs no model no rules sentiment is bizarre and frankly completely uncoordinated - I believe you will be able to keep it because Havocs get them, and the Havoc kit is designed to be mixed and matched with the standard CSMs.
...but I would take an immense degree of joy in seeing the idiots who support this kind of approach having to defend the loss of a classic option using the standard GW apologist arguments.
blood reaper wrote: Very surprised but happy to see they actually used the mulit-part models, rather than the gakky snap-fit sculpts.
But not the kill team add-on sprue, despite those rules being in the codex.
Nurr.
I wonder.
Since you can't get the monopose Chaos Space Marines from them anymore, does that mean CSM squads will no longer be able to take an autocannon? Because no model = no rules.
GWs no model no rules sentiment is bizarre and frankly completely uncoordinated - I believe you will be able to keep it because Havocs get them, and the Havoc kit is designed to be mixed and matched with the standard CSMs.
...but I would take an immense degree of joy in seeing the idiots who support this kind of approach having to defend the loss of a classic option using the standard GW apologist arguments.
Kan will be super happy
Isn't he the person who defended the Autarch not having options GW promised?
blood reaper wrote: Very surprised but happy to see they actually used the mulit-part models, rather than the gakky snap-fit sculpts.
But not the kill team add-on sprue, despite those rules being in the codex.
Nurr.
I wonder.
Since you can't get the monopose Chaos Space Marines from them anymore, does that mean CSM squads will no longer be able to take an autocannon? Because no model = no rules.
GWs no model no rules sentiment is bizarre and frankly completely uncoordinated - I believe you will be able to keep it because Havocs get them, and the Havoc kit is designed to be mixed and matched with the standard CSMs.
...but I would take an immense degree of joy in seeing the idiots who support this kind of approach having to defend the loss of a classic option using the standard GW apologist arguments.
Kan will be super happy
Isn't he the person who defended the Autarch not having options GW promised?
Yeeeeeeeep. Also says Legends is totally legit and any awful point costs pointed out means you're a WAAC player.
dan2026 wrote: They have to release the Obliterators, Venomcrawler and Master of Possession separately, surely?
Without brand new kits for oblits and the VC (which there is no indication of) they can't, they share sprues with the greater possessed and the mono-pose marines.
As far as I know the Oblits and VC share a sprue but don't share it with the mono-pose marines.
Greater Possessed aren't a thing anymore and the monopose CSMs aren't necessary, so it's likely, they'll release the Oblits and VC as a boxset.
Ahh that's a win then, been a while since I had need to look at the sprues to be honest
chaos0xomega wrote: They didn't even put the autocannon on the upgrade sprue? Sheesh GW, you had one job.
And does that Combat Patrol *not* include the add-on sprue? Big kick in the nads if not.
Appears not to but who knows. It might be that the release order is out the swanny and the stock photo was taken before the KT was announced to be released beforehand, but will include it? (Hoping against hope here, as it would be dumb AF not to include it)
Also bit nervy at the lack of info on red corsairs at this point, I know their traits been spelled out but there's no mention of any relics or anything to give any real parity to the legions despite being the snowflake renegades.
chaos0xomega wrote: They didn't even put the autocannon on the upgrade sprue? Sheesh GW, you had one job.
Nope. Several knives and a bolt pistol, but really its just psyker bits, chain cannon and the two handed chain axe. Plus I guess the head and hand for the 'minor possessed' squaddie.
And does that Combat Patrol *not* include the add-on sprue? Big kick in the nads if not.
Not stated, and doesn't show any of the bits. So... no.
chaos0xomega wrote: They didn't even put the autocannon on the upgrade sprue? Sheesh GW, you had one job.
Nope. Several knives and a bolt pistol, but really its just psyker bits, chain cannon and the two handed chain axe. Plus I guess the head and hand for the 'minor possessed' squaddie.
And does that Combat Patrol *not* include the add-on sprue? Big kick in the nads if not.
Not stated, and doesn't show any of the bits. So... no.
To be fair, all of the bits do have a mechanical use in game - but yeah, no autocannons.
chaos0xomega wrote: They didn't even put the autocannon on the upgrade sprue? Sheesh GW, you had one job.
Nope. Several knives and a bolt pistol, but really its just psyker bits, chain cannon and the two handed chain axe. Plus I guess the head and hand for the 'minor possessed' squaddie.
And does that Combat Patrol *not* include the add-on sprue? Big kick in the nads if not.
Not stated, and doesn't show any of the bits. So... no.
To be fair, all of the bits do have a mechanical use in game - but yeah, no autocannons.
chaos0xomega wrote: They didn't even put the autocannon on the upgrade sprue? Sheesh GW, you had one job.
Nope. Several knives and a bolt pistol, but really its just psyker bits, chain cannon and the two handed chain axe. Plus I guess the head and hand for the 'minor possessed' squaddie.
And does that Combat Patrol *not* include the add-on sprue? Big kick in the nads if not.
Not stated, and doesn't show any of the bits. So... no.
To be fair, all of the bits do have a mechanical use in game - but yeah, no autocannons.
To be fair again, the HH weapon packs are a lot easier to justify for their internal budget/project logs/whatever because they're compatible with 18 'factions' (or more, since you know people are going to try to add them to 40kCSM and 40k loyalists), and base kits they're going to sell over and over and over. (And I suspect the price point for the weapon packs is gonna be brutal). They've also planned it from day 1, rather than try to build kits that a) match only specific units in one army and b) possibly need to fit multiple units that were designed up to 20 years apart.
That said, I remember the long long years where chaos marines had one metal autocannon guy, and I would have made dark offerings for that sort of thing. (And felt that way about grav weapons as well, since I didn't want to buy entirely new dev squad boxes just to get a pair- or pay through the nose on bits 'services')
This has been my concern since Shadowspear was turned into a Combat Patrol. Here are the issues:
1. Autocannon was never put into the regular kit. Same with the chain-axe for the champion.
2. Greater Possessed were jumbled in with the Chaos Marines, making it impossible to give it its own kit without some jank.
3. The Obliterators and Venomcrawler have zero options and only go together one way.
4. The Obliterators and Venomcrawler share a sprue, making it impossible to separate them as is.
At the very least, the Master of Possession has always been on his own little sprue, so I expect they'll simply put him out in a kit of his own.
But yes, we really need GW to release the Obliterators on their own with a multi-part kit, and the Venomcrawler on its own, ideally with some pose options at the very least.
The Autocannon is at least an option that you can get in the Havoc box, so with the new Combat Patrol, you'll actually have the bits enough to make an Autocannon Chaos Marine if you really wanted that. Chainaxe you're just SOL until Khorne Berzerkers come out or you use some of the options from the Chosen kit.
It's been a hodge-podge release that has felt incomplete since they got their big 8th edition update. Yes we got some great new sculpts and some neat new options, but it always feels like GW trips right before the finish line.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In slightly more exciting news, a rumor has popped up, confirmed by ClockworkChris over on BnC:
Chaos Marines will have the ability to take up to 25% of Chaos Daemons in an army without breaking army rules, and they can apparently even be in the same detachment.
In slightly more exciting news, a rumor has popped up, confirmed by ClockworkChris over on BnC:
Chaos Marines will have the ability to take up to 25% of Chaos Daemons in an army without breaking army rules, and they can apparently even be in the same detachment.
Wait, not breaking any army rules? On either side?
Because that would be the bee's knees and the wasp's nipples.
I... could do a proper chaos cult. With daemonic summons and a properly elite handful of marine 'overseers'
In slightly more exciting news, a rumor has popped up, confirmed by ClockworkChris over on BnC:
Chaos Marines will have the ability to take up to 25% of Chaos Daemons in an army without breaking army rules, and they can apparently even be in the same detachment.
Wait, not breaking any army rules? On either side?
Because that would be the bee's knees and the wasp's nipples.
I... could do a proper chaos cult. With daemonic summons and a properly elite handful of marine 'overseers'
This sounds like crazy talk, but I want that.
I imagine they'll give up something on the daemons side, they'd have to for it to make any sense really.
In slightly more exciting news, a rumor has popped up, confirmed by ClockworkChris over on BnC:
Chaos Marines will have the ability to take up to 25% of Chaos Daemons in an army without breaking army rules, and they can apparently even be in the same detachment.
Wait, not breaking any army rules? On either side?
Because that would be the bee's knees and the wasp's nipples.
I... could do a proper chaos cult. With daemonic summons and a properly elite handful of marine 'overseers'
This sounds like crazy talk, but I want that.
I imagine they'll give up something on the daemons side, they'd have to for it to make any sense really.
Yeah, this. If they're allowing you to take the Chaos Daemons in the same detachment as the Chaos Marines, then the idea is that you'll get access to the datasheets and any basic Chaos Daemons abilities, but no Chaos Daemons army rules.
Still, a big victory for fluffy armies to be able to have your Marines and Daemons and keep your Marine doctrines and such. Plus, then you can add in a Chaos Knight via the new dreadblade rules.
We're in end-of-edition land (barring ~6 months and give or take a year of Nu-Psychic Abomination filler books). Nothing need to makes sense, it can all just retroactively be declared 'Written with next edition in mind.'
Voss wrote: We're in end-of-edition land (barring ~6 months and give or take a year of Nu-Psychic Abomination filler books). Nothing need to makes sense, it can all just retroactively be declared 'Written with next edition in mind.'
It's hard to imagine that we're already in that phase, but you're probably right.
Chaos Knights and Imperial Knights are out. Chaos Marines are around the corner. That leaves Leagues of Votann, Chaos Daemons, and Astra Militarum as the last codexes to update, along with maybe World Eaters, depending on how far they push it back.
30k this summer. 10th edition 40k next summer. I think a big part of what we might see is lore paving the way for Angron's appearance, like they did with Magnus and Mortarion and Guilliman before.
Another theory I have is that Chaos Marines may get a secondary update in relatively short order. Maybe early 10th edition. There are a bunch of Chaos-looking rumor engines that have still been unresolved, but they could all be part of the World Eaters at this point. A secondary update would give them an opportunity to put out bikes, oblits, venomcrawler, and maybe a new chaos lord and exalted champion, since those options are super limited or not even available right now.
I'm pretty sure WE will come before Guard or Daemons. After all, its been announced and artwork has been shown. We'll likely hear more after the WD with the 'get-you-by' army list has come out and sold.
As far as the rumor engines go, a fair amount were resolved by Warhammer Fest. I think the few remaining (the hammer, the claw w/ flamer and maybe the necklace on the bare torso (which looks like it has a khorne rune cut off) are World Eaters (or STD for the latter)
Voss wrote: I'm pretty sure WE will come before Guard or Daemons. After all, its been announced and artwork has been shown. We'll likely hear more after the WD with the 'get-you-by' army list has come out and sold.
As far as the rumor engines go, a fair amount were resolved by Warhammer Fest. I think the few remaining (the hammer, the claw w/ flamer and maybe the necklace on the bare torso (which looks like it has a khorne rune cut off) are World Eaters (or STD for the latter)
Nah, Daemons will probably be out in relatively short order. They're unlikely to get many new models, just porting over some new stuff from AoS, and maybe a new hero to replace a resin one or something. Astra Militarum is the bigger one, so that will remain to be seen.
And yeah, the hammer and claw. For all we know, could be the same model.
Why WE before Guard? WE are still in the design phase, while we already have a lot more leaks on guard, and we have possibly a kasarkin teased in a rumor engine from months ago
GaroRobe wrote: Why WE before Guard? WE are still in the design phase, while we already have a lot more leaks on guard, and we have possibly a kasarkin teased in a rumor engine from months ago
Yeah, the BIGRUMOURDUMP had the WE codex (and squats for that matter) as "in the pipeline" with no further notes. I'd rather bet on guard and daemons coming out first.
Seriously though Jes Goodwin let slip they were working on WE on a voxcast way back.
Yeah, what we're seeing is called the 'hype cycle'. They give us little tidbits building up to the full release, much like they did with the Sisters of Battle. What we saw of those chain axes is something that could have easily been done 2+ years ago. Very likely, the design is done for EVERYTHING they've made in terms of the models. They might still be working on a few last playtests of the rules and such, but otherwise most everything is likely queued up to get printing.
GaroRobe wrote: Why WE before Guard? WE are still in the design phase, while we already have a lot more leaks on guard, and we have possibly a kasarkin teased in a rumor engine from months ago
Why WE?
Because they made a point of announcing WE. (And unlike STD at the end of the year, it wasn't because of leaks).
What we have on guard is a couple rumor engine pics (same as WE if we consider the hammer and claw as WE related rather than CSM related) and a balance sheet update that says 'feth off, have this and go away'
We’ll be bringing you more updates on Codex: World Eaters and these murderous new miniatures over the next few months on Warhammer Community – so you can follow the Eightfold Path right up to release.
That puts it roughly autumn-ish, like the Squats. Best whisper we have for guard is next year, at least last time I checked.
HH is the big summer release, followed by a slew of kits (upgrades, Mk3 & 4 repacking, various tanks, etc). There are also a lot of AoS books coming. So a small 40k hiatus, coming back big in Autumn with Squats and WE, and the year rounding out with Slaves to Darkness.
GaroRobe wrote: Why WE before Guard? WE are still in the design phase, while we already have a lot more leaks on guard, and we have possibly a kasarkin teased in a rumor engine from months ago
Yeah, the BIGRUMOURDUMP had the WE codex (and squats for that matter) as "in the pipeline" with no further notes. I'd rather bet on guard and daemons coming out first.
Also possibly a second marines codex, again. At the very least there was a rumor about that, alongside more chapter-specific stuff.
drbored wrote: In slightly more exciting news, a rumor has popped up, confirmed by ClockworkChris over on BnC:
Chaos Marines will have the ability to take up to 25% of Chaos Daemons in an army without breaking army rules, and they can apparently even be in the same detachment.
drbored wrote: In slightly more exciting news, a rumor has popped up, confirmed by ClockworkChris over on BnC:
Chaos Marines will have the ability to take up to 25% of Chaos Daemons in an army without breaking army rules, and they can apparently even be in the same detachment.
15 years.
15 years to get our Daemons back.
Also this means that if Abaddon gets the shadowsun rule, CSM will be able to take all of the following without spending any CP or losing any rules
dan2026 wrote: There is literally nothing on Daermons yet.
I bet they are going to be dead last this edition.
At this point, I almost wonder if they might be best served saving Guard and Demons for the 10E launch box.
I absolutely do not believe GW would consider that a viable box set, let alone launch box.
I also think they wouldn't put up with the complaints if someone didn't get their update. They can only get away with EC because they weren't a separate book already, with just two existing books left, there would be screaming.
drbored wrote: In slightly more exciting news, a rumor has popped up, confirmed by ClockworkChris over on BnC:
Chaos Marines will have the ability to take up to 25% of Chaos Daemons in an army without breaking army rules, and they can apparently even be in the same detachment.
15 years.
15 years to get our Daemons back.
As an Iron Warrior player that doesn’t give a heck about daemons, I’m still very happy that the less religion-averse legions get their little summoned friends back!
Voss wrote: That puts it roughly autumn-ish, like the Squats. Best whisper we have for guard is next year, at least last time I checked.
HH is the big summer release, followed by a slew of kits (upgrades, Mk3 & 4 repacking, various tanks, etc). There are also a lot of AoS books coming. So a small 40k hiatus, coming back big in Autumn with Squats and WE, and the year rounding out with Slaves to Darkness.
Around the time of the accurate Eldar leaks I remember there was a source claiming World Eaters would be out "before the end of 2022", so this fits.
Perhaps we'll see the first wave of new Guard kits arrive alongside WE in another Eldritch Omens style box
I can't believe GW quietly disappeared the Start Collecting box with zero notice and no word on when, or if, certain popular units will be available again. I mean, it didn't even go to 'Last Chance to Buy', did it?
drbored wrote: In slightly more exciting news, a rumor has popped up, confirmed by ClockworkChris over on BnC:
Chaos Marines will have the ability to take up to 25% of Chaos Daemons in an army without breaking army rules, and they can apparently even be in the same detachment.
15 years.
15 years to get our Daemons back.
As an Iron Warrior player that doesn’t give a heck about daemons, I’m still very happy that the less religion-averse legions get their little summoned friends back!
Gotta wonder if this will apply to Thousand Sons, Death Guard, and World Eaters, too.
drbored wrote: In slightly more exciting news, a rumor has popped up, confirmed by ClockworkChris over on BnC:
Chaos Marines will have the ability to take up to 25% of Chaos Daemons in an army without breaking army rules, and they can apparently even be in the same detachment.
15 years.
15 years to get our Daemons back.
As an Iron Warrior player that doesn’t give a heck about daemons, I’m still very happy that the less religion-averse legions get their little summoned friends back!
Gotta wonder if this will apply to Thousand Sons, Death Guard, and World Eaters, too.
I could see it being limited to matching god keywords for them.
drbored wrote: In slightly more exciting news, a rumor has popped up, confirmed by ClockworkChris over on BnC:
Chaos Marines will have the ability to take up to 25% of Chaos Daemons in an army without breaking army rules, and they can apparently even be in the same detachment.
15 years.
15 years to get our Daemons back.
Yes, but we're finally getting them back. We're actually getting something back that we lost instead of losing even more. Although I have no intention to add Daemons to my own army, I'm absolutely thrilled for those that have been wanting something like this again for ages. I hope you guys have an absolute blast with this.
Samus666 wrote: I can't believe GW quietly disappeared the Start Collecting box with zero notice and no word on when, or if, certain popular units will be available again. I mean, it didn't even go to 'Last Chance to Buy', did it?
What are they playing at?
I see you didn't notice that last, ehh, six or eight times they did this.
Samus666 wrote: I can't believe GW quietly disappeared the Start Collecting box with zero notice and no word on when, or if, certain popular units will be available again. I mean, it didn't even go to 'Last Chance to Buy', did it?
What are they playing at?
Sucks the models are unavailable, but on the whole between it disappearing and the new combat patrol being shown off, it means CSM release is sooner than later.
And we can also start looking forward to separate releases for various things in boxed sets (chosen, warpsmith, KT version of marines)
Samus666 wrote: I can't believe GW quietly disappeared the Start Collecting box with zero notice and no word on when, or if, certain popular units will be available again. I mean, it didn't even go to 'Last Chance to Buy', did it?
What are they playing at?
I am very confident that the Venomcrawler and Obliterators will be released as a combo box of "Daemonkin fire support", or something to that effect, when the codex drops. (Based purely on GW's usual behavior. I don't have any insider info.)
I doubt it's a coincidence that those two were isolated to a single sprue and they do thematically make sense together since the VC buffs anything with the Daemon keyword. Also GW did the same thing with the the Deathguard and Bladeguard starter box character sprues.
The monopose CSM and Greater Possessed (who have been demoted to regular Possessed) are probably gone for good.
drbored wrote: In slightly more exciting news, a rumor has popped up, confirmed by ClockworkChris over on BnC:
Chaos Marines will have the ability to take up to 25% of Chaos Daemons in an army without breaking army rules, and they can apparently even be in the same detachment.
15 years.
15 years to get our Daemons back.
Yes, but we're finally getting them back. We're actually getting something back that we lost instead of losing even more. Although I have no intention to add Daemons to my own army, I'm absolutely thrilled for those that have been wanting something like this again for ages. I hope you guys have an absolute blast with this.
Well, not "instead" so much as "alongside" considering what we're losing. But still, it's nice!
Samus666 wrote: I can't believe GW quietly disappeared the Start Collecting box with zero notice and no word on when, or if, certain popular units will be available again. I mean, it didn't even go to 'Last Chance to Buy', did it?
What are they playing at?
I am very confident that the Venomcrawler and Obliterators will be released as a combo box of "Daemonkin fire support", or something to that effect, when the codex drops. (Based purely on GW's usual behavior. I don't have any insider info.)
I doubt it's a coincidence that those two were isolated to a single sprue and they do thematically make sense together since the VC buffs anything with the Daemon keyword. Also GW did the same thing with the the Deathguard and Bladeguard starter box character sprues.
The monopose CSM and Greater Possessed (who have been demoted to regular Possessed) are probably gone for good.
I imagine it'll be in a white box and web-order only, much like some of the character models in the 8th edition starter set.
drbored wrote: In slightly more exciting news, a rumor has popped up, confirmed by ClockworkChris over on BnC:
Chaos Marines will have the ability to take up to 25% of Chaos Daemons in an army without breaking army rules, and they can apparently even be in the same detachment.
15 years.
15 years to get our Daemons back.
Maybe this codex won't be so bad for Word Bearers afterall.
...I must admit I only barely managed to keep a straight face typing that
drbored wrote: In slightly more exciting news, a rumor has popped up, confirmed by ClockworkChris over on BnC:
Chaos Marines will have the ability to take up to 25% of Chaos Daemons in an army without breaking army rules, and they can apparently even be in the same detachment.
15 years.
15 years to get our Daemons back.
Maybe this codex won't be so bad for Word Bearers afterall.
...I must admit I only barely managed to keep a straight face typing that
At least this time their legion trait isn't just the thing that all space marines get for free
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Maybe this codex won't be so bad for Word Bearers afterall.
...I must admit I only barely managed to keep a straight face typing that
Nah this will be great for Word Bearers.
Just think, thousands of years of devotion to the Dark Gods and to represent that you get some extra Mortal Wounds during turns 4 and 5 of any game. It's so thematic I can hardly contain my enthusiasm!
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Maybe this codex won't be so bad for Word Bearers afterall.
...I must admit I only barely managed to keep a straight face typing that
Nah this will be great for Word Bearers.
Just think, thousands of years of devotion to the Dark Gods and to represent that you get some extra Mortal Wounds during turns 4 and 5 of any game. It's so thematic I can hardly contain my enthusiasm!
At least it's better than Night Lords getting a super conditional +1 to hit with pistols/melee/assault in turns 4-5 of the game!
drbored wrote: In slightly more exciting news, a rumor has popped up, confirmed by ClockworkChris over on BnC:
Chaos Marines will have the ability to take up to 25% of Chaos Daemons in an army without breaking army rules, and they can apparently even be in the same detachment.
15 years.
15 years to get our Daemons back.
Also this means that if Abaddon gets the shadowsun rule, CSM will be able to take all of the following without spending any CP or losing any rules
A) A legion of choice
B) Abaddon
C) Daemons
D) A knight (possibly, this might need a FAQ)
Pick three, because detachment limit of 3 at 2k. You would have to pay CP for the daemon or knight detachment, though the knight will be discounted by 2 if it shares its alignment with your warlord.
drbored wrote: In slightly more exciting news, a rumor has popped up, confirmed by ClockworkChris over on BnC:
Chaos Marines will have the ability to take up to 25% of Chaos Daemons in an army without breaking army rules, and they can apparently even be in the same detachment.
15 years.
15 years to get our Daemons back.
Also this means that if Abaddon gets the shadowsun rule, CSM will be able to take all of the following without spending any CP or losing any rules
A) A legion of choice
B) Abaddon
C) Daemons
D) A knight (possibly, this might need a FAQ)
Pick three, because detachment limit of 3 at 2k. You would have to pay CP for the daemon or knight detachment, though the knight will be discounted by 2 if it shares its alignment with your warlord.
I think they were working on the idea that the daemons sat in the csm detachment which Chris shut down over on B&C. The 25% thing is true but not in the same detachment.
It's still not bad - you can have any Legion+Abaddon+Daemons or any Legion+Daemons+Knight as well as Black Legion+Abaddon+Daemons+Knight if you just run him as regular HQ. This should cover pretty much every collection out there and most narrative scenarios.
Or you don't bother with failbadon the (H)armless and go full WB with a daemon detachment and enjoy it while it lasts before inevitably the pendulum swings back and shoots and beheads souping mechanics.
Not Online!!! wrote: Or you don't bother with failbadon the (H)armless and go full WB with a daemon detachment and enjoy it while it lasts before inevitably the pendulum swings back and shoots and beheads souping mechanics.
The reason I parted ways with my daemons I used as add-ins previously and won't go back there again. I was right not to get excited about the army of renown for Be'Lakor as well since it'll be dead before long.
Samus666 wrote: I can't believe GW quietly disappeared the Start Collecting box with zero notice and no word on when, or if, certain popular units will be available again. I mean, it didn't even go to 'Last Chance to Buy', did it?
What are they playing at?
I am very confident that the Venomcrawler and Obliterators will be released as a combo box of "Daemonkin fire support", or something to that effect, when the codex drops. (Based purely on GW's usual behavior. I don't have any insider info.)
I doubt it's a coincidence that those two were isolated to a single sprue and they do thematically make sense together since the VC buffs anything with the Daemon keyword. Also GW did the same thing with the the Deathguard and Bladeguard starter box character sprues.
The monopose CSM and Greater Possessed (who have been demoted to regular Possessed) are probably gone for good.
I reckon this is a pretty reasonable predication, based on what we've seen previously. For example, the Death Guard stuff that wasn't available elsewhere popped back up, but the starter box Plague Marines, Drone and Lord disappeared.
Man, I just returned from an 8 years retirement and everything seems SO EXCYTING for CSM I can't even believe how much things have gotten better since the old dudes left. I don't know how many people are with me, but since the Fest I'm reaaaaaly hyped for this to come. So much that if the codex releases in july the wait is going to be eternal, yep. But I'm happy so far with the new models everyone has (except for EClol poor slaanesh fans)
Like, I'm still trying to come over the fact that now Abaddon is cool, has good rules, and even a personality! That's savage
I am not very impressed with the chaos reveals, i have already 40 cultist dont need a cultist hq and dont like the possesed cultist.
possesed marines are oke and thats the only reveal for chaos marines. So its so so.
Jidmah wrote: Pick three, because detachment limit of 3 at 2k. You would have to pay CP for the daemon or knight detachment, though the knight will be discounted by 2 if it shares its alignment with your warlord.
If it's true I am super happy to do my power couple of Abaddon and a LoC again. No Rubrics, but with the CSM psyker sergeants I'm covered.
skeleton wrote:I am not very impressed with the chaos reveals, i have already 40 cultist dont need a cultist hq and dont like the possesed cultist.
possesed marines are oke and thats the only reveal for chaos marines. So its so so.
Feels like a missed opportunity. Cultists and Mutants are no substitute for Renegades and Heretics.
IA13 is still too fresh in the memory to feel good about this.
Daedalus81 wrote:
Jidmah wrote: Pick three, because detachment limit of 3 at 2k. You would have to pay CP for the daemon or knight detachment, though the knight will be discounted by 2 if it shares its alignment with your warlord.
If it's true I am super happy to do my power couple of Abaddon and a LoC again. No Rubrics, but with the CSM psyker sergeants I'm covered.
Abaddon, a Knight Despoiler and Be'lakor would be an interesting combo.
Sunny Side Up wrote: You can play 25% Daemons with CSM right now, and could do for the past 15 years.
Thanks Sunny, but everyone else here understood what I meant.
We'll give you 5 to catch up.
He is right though - technically nothing changes except you can't field more than 25% anymore.
Just nope.
Chaos Marines will have the ability to take up to 25% of Chaos Daemons in an army without breaking army rules, and they can apparently even be in the same detachment.
Not sure why you and Sunny are skipping the important bits. No CP cost (for an additional detachment) and keep legion traits. That's... pretty big.
And as written, you can take more than 25%, but you'll go back to losing your rules.
Sunny Side Up wrote: You can play 25% Daemons with CSM right now, and could do for the past 15 years.
Thanks Sunny, but everyone else here understood what I meant.
We'll give you 5 to catch up.
He is right though - technically nothing changes except you can't field more than 25% anymore.
Just nope.
Chaos Marines will have the ability to take up to 25% of Chaos Daemons in an army without breaking army rules, and they can apparently even be in the same detachment.
Not sure why you and Sunny are skipping the important bits. No CP cost (for an additional detachment) and keep legion traits. That's... pretty big.
And as written, you can take more than 25%, but you'll go back to losing your rules.
Clockworkchris confirmed that you do have to still have the daemons in a separate detachment, so you gotta pay the CP for that. At 25%, at a 2000 point list, you're talking about 500 points of daemons, which realistically is going to be a patrol detachment.
Sunny Side Up wrote: You can play 25% Daemons with CSM right now, and could do for the past 15 years.
Thanks Sunny, but everyone else here understood what I meant.
We'll give you 5 to catch up.
He is right though - technically nothing changes except you can't field more than 25% anymore.
Just nope.
Chaos Marines will have the ability to take up to 25% of Chaos Daemons in an army without breaking army rules, and they can apparently even be in the same detachment.
Not sure why you and Sunny are skipping the important bits. No CP cost (for an additional detachment) and keep legion traits. That's... pretty big.
And as written, you can take more than 25%, but you'll go back to losing your rules.
This has been confirmed to be false. Right now, you lose nothing by putting 1000 points of 8th daemons with your 1000 point 8th CSM. You will lose your legion trait for doing that with 9th CSM.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Maybe this codex won't be so bad for Word Bearers afterall.
...I must admit I only barely managed to keep a straight face typing that
Nah this will be great for Word Bearers.
Just think, thousands of years of devotion to the Dark Gods and to represent that you get some extra Mortal Wounds during turns 4 and 5 of any game. It's so thematic I can hardly contain my enthusiasm!
At least it's better than Night Lords getting a super conditional +1 to hit with pistols/melee/assault in turns 4-5 of the game!
From turn 3+, Wanton Slaughter: When using a pistol/assault/melee vs below half strength unit or LD 6 and below = +1 to wound
Yeah that's too conditional and too late, but it's a little better than you made it sound. Just a little.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Maybe this codex won't be so bad for Word Bearers afterall.
...I must admit I only barely managed to keep a straight face typing that
Nah this will be great for Word Bearers.
Just think, thousands of years of devotion to the Dark Gods and to represent that you get some extra Mortal Wounds during turns 4 and 5 of any game. It's so thematic I can hardly contain my enthusiasm!
At least it's better than Night Lords getting a super conditional +1 to hit with pistols/melee/assault in turns 4-5 of the game!
From turn 3+, Wanton Slaughter: When using a pistol/assault/melee vs below half strength unit or LD 6 and below = +1 to wound
Yeah that's too conditional and too late, but it's a little better than you made it sound. Just a little.
Ahh, I thought it was turn 4 and onward. The other benefit they get is +1 to advance and charge, and then their -2 leadership and +1 CA aura, but honestly, I'd rather just do the 'make your own warband' rules and pick the +1 to advance and charge and then the +1 movement and strength. Makes my guys faster and overall stronger, so base chaos marines are str 5, which is already like getting +1 to wound against t4 and t8 targets.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Maybe this codex won't be so bad for Word Bearers afterall.
...I must admit I only barely managed to keep a straight face typing that
Nah this will be great for Word Bearers.
Just think, thousands of years of devotion to the Dark Gods and to represent that you get some extra Mortal Wounds during turns 4 and 5 of any game. It's so thematic I can hardly contain my enthusiasm!
At least it's better than Night Lords getting a super conditional +1 to hit with pistols/melee/assault in turns 4-5 of the game!
From turn 3+, Wanton Slaughter: When using a pistol/assault/melee vs below half strength unit or LD 6 and below = +1 to wound
Yeah that's too conditional and too late, but it's a little better than you made it sound. Just a little.
Ahh, I thought it was turn 4 and onward. The other benefit they get is +1 to advance and charge, and then their -2 leadership and +1 CA aura, but honestly, I'd rather just do the 'make your own warband' rules and pick the +1 to advance and charge and then the +1 movement and strength. Makes my guys faster and overall stronger, so base chaos marines are str 5, which is already like getting +1 to wound against t4 and t8 targets.
Yeah, definitely going with custom traits for my guys. That "Unmarked" trait that gives everything fallback + charge/shoot? That'll be like Night Lords in 3.5, except instead of just my Raptors having Hit and Run, it'll be my whole army. With We Have Come for You and Warp Talons new no fallback ability, nobody will be running from my guys unless I let them, but my guys can run all they want.
We aren't (or at least nobody seems to be). We're still going off of what has been leaked from Clockworkchris. Yeah, it's from old playtest rules, but it's all we've got for now.
We aren't (or at least nobody seems to be). We're still going off of what has been leaked from Clockworkchris. Yeah, it's from old playtest rules, but it's all we've got for now.
We aren't (or at least nobody seems to be). We're still going off of what has been leaked from Clockworkchris. Yeah, it's from old playtest rules, but it's all we've got for now.
I'm sitting on a box of Terminators, two boxes of Raptors, two boxes of Helbrutes, my Chosen and Warpsmith just waiting for the Codex to come out so I can start building.
As much as I trust all the leaks, we still will need points values and the full idea of traits, strats, and relics and warlord traits to figure it all out and put these things together.
drbored wrote: Ahh, I thought it was turn 4 and onward. The other benefit they get is +1 to advance and charge, and then their -2 leadership and +1 CA aura, but honestly, I'd rather just do the 'make your own warband' rules and pick the +1 to advance and charge and then the +1 movement and strength. Makes my guys faster and overall stronger, so base chaos marines are str 5, which is already like getting +1 to wound against t4 and t8 targets.
Considering how abjectly useless morale is in 40k, agreed. I'll probably just run them that way with friends since I don't play competitive anyway.
We aren't (or at least nobody seems to be). We're still going off of what has been leaked from Clockworkchris. Yeah, it's from old playtest rules, but it's all we've got for now.
I'm sitting on a box of Terminators, two boxes of Raptors, two boxes of Helbrutes, my Chosen and Warpsmith just waiting for the Codex to come out so I can start building.
As much as I trust all the leaks, we still will need points values and the full idea of traits, strats, and relics and warlord traits to figure it all out and put these things together.
Yeah, I wouldn't recommend anyone building or purchasing anything based off of these leaks. There's still too much that we don't know, including whether or not any of this has changed since it was originally playtested. We're still fairly in the dark.
We aren't (or at least nobody seems to be). We're still going off of what has been leaked from Clockworkchris. Yeah, it's from old playtest rules, but it's all we've got for now.
I'm sitting on a box of Terminators, two boxes of Raptors, two boxes of Helbrutes, my Chosen and Warpsmith just waiting for the Codex to come out so I can start building.
As much as I trust all the leaks, we still will need points values and the full idea of traits, strats, and relics and warlord traits to figure it all out and put these things together.
Yeah, I wouldn't recommend anyone building or purchasing anything based off of these leaks. There's still too much that we don't know, including whether or not any of this has changed since it was originally playtested. We're still fairly in the dark.
Yeah. Even if you want to pick up a basic Chaos Space Marine box. You'd rather wait for the rebox with the new "Legionnaire" upgrade sprue.
Dudeface wrote: Chris has confirmed in the B&C thread that the rule for daemons is in the upcoming daemon codex, so will be appropriate for Tsons and DG as well.
If it is in the Daemons book, then presumably it isn't in the new CSM book, so it'll be a little while before it kicks in?
I mean even for Guard we're seen some glimpse of what they might get. Daemons are a no show.
Well, there'll be one and the list of other possible releases is getting really short. It'll be a book/book +1 model release as a guess, I'd imagine November/December to coincide with slaves to darkness.
I wouldn't bet on daemons before January. This year still has Chaos Marines, Squats, Space Marines 2, Horus Heresy (lots of it), and a bunch of AoS releases.
cuda1179 wrote: I wouldn't bet on daemons before January. This year still has Chaos Marines, Squats, Space Marines 2, Horus Heresy (lots of it), and a bunch of AoS releases.
I think they'll drop more than 3 codex in 7 months though.
cuda1179 wrote: I wouldn't bet on daemons before January. This year still has Chaos Marines, Squats, Space Marines 2, Horus Heresy (lots of it), and a bunch of AoS releases.
I think they'll drop more than 3 codex in 7 months though.
Well, yeah but we're currently riding the Knights hype train, so that kills at least a couple weeks, and they generally don't have big releases in December. So that is really more like 5 months.
I bet Horus Heresy gets a full 6 weeks of attention at least.
Dudeface wrote: Chris has confirmed in the B&C thread that the rule for daemons is in the upcoming daemon codex, so will be appropriate for Tsons and DG as well.
cuda1179 wrote: I wouldn't bet on daemons before January. This year still has Chaos Marines, Squats, Space Marines 2, Horus Heresy (lots of it), and a bunch of AoS releases.
I think they'll drop more than 3 codex in 7 months though.
Well, yeah but we're currently riding the Knights hype train, so that kills at least a couple weeks, and they generally don't have big releases in December. So that is really more like 5 months.
I bet Horus Heresy gets a full 6 weeks of attention at least.
Well there's 9 aos books still to come this year. 3 codex would feel weird with that.
Dudeface wrote: Chris has confirmed in the B&C thread that the rule for daemons is in the upcoming daemon codex, so will be appropriate for Tsons and DG as well.
Didn’t he say it was in the Knights codex?
Copied it over for clarity, assuming he doesn't want to post here any more after he got met with too much skepticism and demands of proof etc.
Clockworkchris, on 10 May 2022 - 11:58 PM, said:
Putrid Choir, on 10 May 2022 - 8:21 PM, said:
I really hope the Daemon rules (about bringing up to 25%) is in the chaos daemons codex and not the chaos space marines codex, otherwise TS and DG won't get it.
Chaos daemons, like the rule for chaos knights is in the knights codex
I mean, simply put, Chaos Daemons and Astra Militarum are the only two codexes left after Chaos Marines that need to be updated.
We are highly likely to get World Eaters and Leagues of Votann before then as well and...
Dare I say...
Dark Mechanicum...?
There's two rumor engines that nobody has been able to place, the thunder hammer one, and the claw with flamer one. GW have also started to post artwork for Dark Mechanicum, seemingly out of nowhere. I wonder if we may yet see them get some sort of update in the relatively near future?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
Instruction booklet for Terminators. Shows the updated statline (increased wounds and attacks) and the various weapon profiles.
Note that the chain fist and power fist are separate (as they were rumored) but the only other melee weapon shown is the power sword, which has the same profile as the accursed weapon is rumored to be.
I mean, simply put, Chaos Daemons and Astra Militarum are the only two codexes left after Chaos Marines that need to be updated.
We are highly likely to get World Eaters and Leagues of Votann before then as well and...
Dare I say...
Dark Mechanicum...?
There's two rumor engines that nobody has been able to place, the thunder hammer one, and the claw with flamer one. GW have also started to post artwork for Dark Mechanicum, seemingly out of nowhere. I wonder if we may yet see them get some sort of update in the relatively near future?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
Instruction booklet for Terminators. Shows the updated statline (increased wounds and attacks) and the various weapon profiles.
Note that the chain fist and power fist are separate (as they were rumored) but the only other melee weapon shown is the power sword, which has the same profile as the accursed weapon is rumored to be.
Nah. At this point another codex codex would've leaked for sure.
I mean, simply put, Chaos Daemons and Astra Militarum are the only two codexes left after Chaos Marines that need to be updated.
We are highly likely to get World Eaters and Leagues of Votann before then as well and...
Dare I say...
Dark Mechanicum...?
There's two rumor engines that nobody has been able to place, the thunder hammer one, and the claw with flamer one. GW have also started to post artwork for Dark Mechanicum, seemingly out of nowhere. I wonder if we may yet see them get some sort of update in the relatively near future?
Occam's razor suggests that the close combat weapon and close combat weapon with integrated short ranged weapon are just... World Eaters releases.
A WE specific warp smith (or just a lord with a hammer) and a daemon engine claw with flamer fits very well with the history of Khornate daemon engines.
I mean, simply put, Chaos Daemons and Astra Militarum are the only two codexes left after Chaos Marines that need to be updated.
We are highly likely to get World Eaters and Leagues of Votann before then as well and...
Dare I say...
Dark Mechanicum...?
There's two rumor engines that nobody has been able to place, the thunder hammer one, and the claw with flamer one. GW have also started to post artwork for Dark Mechanicum, seemingly out of nowhere. I wonder if we may yet see them get some sort of update in the relatively near future?
Occam's razor suggests that the close combat weapon and close combat weapon with integrated short ranged weapon are just... World Eaters releases.
A WE specific warp smith (or just a lord with a hammer) and a daemon engine claw with flamer fits very well with the history of Khornate daemon engines.
Garrac wrote: I don't know if anyone has pointed this already, but I think this RE reaaaaaally smells like Khorne
First I thought it was a head for new possesed models, but now we know it isn't!
This is based off of artwork, not a photo of a mini. What we may see is in the Chaos Marine dex artwork that matches up with these pieces. There were some eldar ones that went along with this, which likely match up with artwork in the eldar codex.
Instruction booklet for Terminators. Shows the updated statline (increased wounds and attacks) and the various weapon profiles.
Note that the chain fist and power fist are separate (as they were rumored) but the only other melee weapon shown is the power sword, which has the same profile as the accursed weapon is rumored to be.
EviscerationPlague wrote: They could've bumped the fire rate on the Reaper at least if they were gonna keep it D1.
Hopefully it'll drop in points. Chaos Terminators don't really make a great ranged unit now, since you can only equip what's in the box. So that's 1 heavy weapon (either heavy flamer or autocannon), 2 combi-meltas, 2 combi-flamers, and/or 1 combi-plasma.
So the ideal situation for long-range fire support would be the autocannon, combi-plasma, and two combi-meltas and a combi-bolter or combi-flamer depending on points. Drop them in, shoot a bunch of stuff, charge. It's just kind of a mess of a unit, no matter how you slice it, thanks to the mess of options they have.
EviscerationPlague wrote: They could've bumped the fire rate on the Reaper at least if they were gonna keep it D1.
Hopefully it'll drop in points. Chaos Terminators don't really make a great ranged unit now, since you can only equip what's in the box. So that's 1 heavy weapon (either heavy flamer or autocannon), 2 combi-meltas, 2 combi-flamers, and/or 1 combi-plasma.
So the ideal situation for long-range fire support would be the autocannon, combi-plasma, and two combi-meltas and a combi-bolter or combi-flamer depending on points. Drop them in, shoot a bunch of stuff, charge. It's just kind of a mess of a unit, no matter how you slice it, thanks to the mess of options they have.
Oh yeah they're totally gonna get Blightlord'd hard. I'd probably just do the Autocannon and a Fist on the Champ. Maybe more fists depending on how many I'm allowed.
EviscerationPlague wrote: They could've bumped the fire rate on the Reaper at least if they were gonna keep it D1.
Hopefully it'll drop in points. Chaos Terminators don't really make a great ranged unit now, since you can only equip what's in the box. So that's 1 heavy weapon (either heavy flamer or autocannon), 2 combi-meltas, 2 combi-flamers, and/or 1 combi-plasma.
So the ideal situation for long-range fire support would be the autocannon, combi-plasma, and two combi-meltas and a combi-bolter or combi-flamer depending on points. Drop them in, shoot a bunch of stuff, charge. It's just kind of a mess of a unit, no matter how you slice it, thanks to the mess of options they have.
Oh yeah they're totally gonna get Blightlord'd hard. I'd probably just do the Autocannon and a Fist on the Champ. Maybe more fists depending on how many I'm allowed.
My preference of loadout would be 2 combi-meltas with 2 power fists, chainfist and combi-plasma on the champ, and the other two with accursed weapons and combi bolters (read: ablative wounds)
Instruction booklet for Terminators. Shows the updated statline (increased wounds and attacks) and the various weapon profiles.
Note that the chain fist and power fist are separate (as they were rumored) but the only other melee weapon shown is the power sword, which has the same profile as the accursed weapon is rumored to be.
Still D1 on that Reaper AC as well.
Well, you didn't actually think that they'd make it better than the ones that loyalists have (infuriatingly) now, did you?
H.B.M.C. wrote: Nah. It'll get D2 on the 'Relic Terminator' entry in Marines 2.0.
Yup. You want better Reaper ACs, lascannons, missile launchers, etc? Wait for Loyalist Scum 2.0. Don't expect them in CSM, because CSM aren't allowed to have anything better than loyalists for one. Damned. Minute.
ph34r wrote: Blightlorded terminators sound terrible. I'm really glad I gave up on my "make a big unit of terminators from the OOP ones" half way through.
This is just the way that units are going to go in the future.
The saddest part to me is that, for the most part, it's really only Chaos that has to deal with this crap. Yeah, a couple other units have gotten limits on how many special or heavy weapons they can take, reducing the amount of plasma or melta spam you could take in x or y units, but Death Guard and Chaos Marines got hit by the brunt of it.
With most of 40k in modern plastic, I don't see too many instances where it can be done to other squads or units.
But just you wait. When Astra Militarum comes out, how much you want to bet Scions get limited to 1 plasma gun per 5 models?
But just you wait. When Astra Militarum comes out, how much you want to bet Scions get limited to 1 plasma gun per 5 models?
Tbh, I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing. "Pick the single most optimal option and spam it into the ground" is such a boring thing to see in army construction, imo – particularly with plasma guns which are supposed to be these rare, arcane relics, yet >1/10 chumps in the Guard are cutting about with one.
I do, however, think it's an issue that this stuff isn't consistently applied across codices – or even units – which makes it a bummer when certain armies get to circumvent it.
tneva82 wrote: Or gw could just not make something auto choice. Shocking yes. Game developers doing actual job and not just be marketing department's rubber stamps.
After 30 years that ship hasn't just sailed, it's now qualified to take Ringbearers to Valinor.
tneva82 wrote: Or gw could just not make something auto choice. Shocking yes. Game developers doing actual job and not just be marketing department's rubber stamps.
There's too many variables and moving parts to make everything equally balanced, without stripping it back to "special weapon" as the profile, you can't necessarily equate opportunity cost into a weapon. grenade launchers are fairly ubiquitous, as are plasma guns, so they'd have to be priced a lot more than say a flamer or a melta who have fewer targets and opportunities, but due to the meta/prevalence of certain opponents there'll always be a "best" weapon to pick.
But just you wait. When Astra Militarum comes out, how much you want to bet Scions get limited to 1 plasma gun per 5 models?
Tbh, I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing. "Pick the single most optimal option and spam it into the ground" is such a boring thing to see in army construction, imo – particularly with plasma guns which are supposed to be these rare, arcane relics, yet >1/10 chumps in the Guard are cutting about with one.
I do, however, think it's an issue that this stuff isn't consistently applied across codices – or even units – which makes it a bummer when certain armies get to circumvent it.
Yeah I'm glad I ton a of my units got made invalid in order to appease a very specific conception of how the game should work and lore should be.
tneva82 wrote: Or gw could just not make something auto choice. Shocking yes. Game developers doing actual job and not just be marketing department's rubber stamps.
There's too many variables and moving parts to make everything equally balanced, without stripping it back to "special weapon" as the profile, you can't necessarily equate opportunity cost into a weapon. grenade launchers are fairly ubiquitous, as are plasma guns, so they'd have to be priced a lot more than say a flamer or a melta who have fewer targets and opportunities, but due to the meta/prevalence of certain opponents there'll always be a "best" weapon to pick.
But just you wait. When Astra Militarum comes out, how much you want to bet Scions get limited to 1 plasma gun per 5 models?
Tbh, I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing. "Pick the single most optimal option and spam it into the ground" is such a boring thing to see in army construction, imo – particularly with plasma guns which are supposed to be these rare, arcane relics, yet >1/10 chumps in the Guard are cutting about with one.
I do, however, think it's an issue that this stuff isn't consistently applied across codices – or even units – which makes it a bummer when certain armies get to circumvent it.
Except it doesn't fix that either. People will still spam the most optimal option over the others, it's just that they would only be taking one plasma instead of two.
But just you wait. When Astra Militarum comes out, how much you want to bet Scions get limited to 1 plasma gun per 5 models?
Tbh, I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing. "Pick the single most optimal option and spam it into the ground" is such a boring thing to see in army construction, imo – particularly with plasma guns which are supposed to be these rare, arcane relics, yet >1/10 chumps in the Guard are cutting about with one.
I do, however, think it's an issue that this stuff isn't consistently applied across codices – or even units – which makes it a bummer when certain armies get to circumvent it.
Except it doesn't fix that either. People will still spam the most optimal option over the others, it's just that they would only be taking one plasma instead of two.
I guess there's a broader issue for sure, and I guess part of it is "people simply cannot be trusted to behave once they get it into their head that a game of 40K is a competitive, rather than a collaborative endeavour".
tneva82 wrote: Or gw could just not make something auto choice. Shocking yes. Game developers doing actual job and not just be marketing department's rubber stamps.
There's too many variables and moving parts to make everything equally balanced, without stripping it back to "special weapon" as the profile, you can't necessarily equate opportunity cost into a weapon. grenade launchers are fairly ubiquitous, as are plasma guns, so they'd have to be priced a lot more than say a flamer or a melta who have fewer targets and opportunities, but due to the meta/prevalence of certain opponents there'll always be a "best" weapon to pick.
It's almost like you found a way to balance it.
Except you don't know what you'll be opposing, so you either always take the generalist option, or you know the skew in the meta which means there is a "best" choice.
tneva82 wrote: Or gw could just not make something auto choice. Shocking yes. Game developers doing actual job and not just be marketing department's rubber stamps.
There's too many variables and moving parts to make everything equally balanced, without stripping it back to "special weapon" as the profile, you can't necessarily equate opportunity cost into a weapon. grenade launchers are fairly ubiquitous, as are plasma guns, so they'd have to be priced a lot more than say a flamer or a melta who have fewer targets and opportunities, but due to the meta/prevalence of certain opponents there'll always be a "best" weapon to pick.
It's almost like you found a way to balance it.
Except you don't know what you'll be opposing, so you either always take the generalist option, or you know the skew in the meta which means there is a "best" choice.
Soooooo how do other armies with specialist units handle it? Hmmmmm super difficult....
Dudeface wrote: There's too many variables and moving parts to make everything equally balanced, without stripping it back to "special weapon" as the profile, you can't necessarily equate opportunity cost into a weapon. grenade launchers are fairly ubiquitous, as are plasma guns, so they'd have to be priced a lot more than say a flamer or a melta who have fewer targets and opportunities, but due to the meta/prevalence of certain opponents there'll always be a "best" weapon to pick.
You're acting like this is a new thing, and isn't something that has been basically solved for 20+ years.
EviscerationPlague wrote: Oh joy, we have people actively defending GW's crap "build only what's in the box" rules writing.
tneva82 wrote: Or gw could just not make something auto choice. Shocking yes. Game developers doing actual job and not just be marketing department's rubber stamps.
There's too many variables and moving parts to make everything equally balanced, without stripping it back to "special weapon" as the profile, you can't necessarily equate opportunity cost into a weapon. grenade launchers are fairly ubiquitous, as are plasma guns, so they'd have to be priced a lot more than say a flamer or a melta who have fewer targets and opportunities, but due to the meta/prevalence of certain opponents there'll always be a "best" weapon to pick.
It's almost like you found a way to balance it.
Except you don't know what you'll be opposing, so you either always take the generalist option, or you know the skew in the meta which means there is a "best" choice.
Soooooo how do other armies with specialist units handle it? Hmmmmm super difficult....
You pay for the opportunity cost the same as with these weapons, but I'd wager that all the various aspect warriors for example aren't either deviated enough that they all have a unique place or are evenly balanced in cost/potential that it doesn't matter what aspects you bring and get a balanced list/game.
tneva82 wrote: Or gw could just not make something auto choice. Shocking yes. Game developers doing actual job and not just be marketing department's rubber stamps.
There's too many variables and moving parts to make everything equally balanced, without stripping it back to "special weapon" as the profile, you can't necessarily equate opportunity cost into a weapon. grenade launchers are fairly ubiquitous, as are plasma guns, so they'd have to be priced a lot more than say a flamer or a melta who have fewer targets and opportunities, but due to the meta/prevalence of certain opponents there'll always be a "best" weapon to pick.
It's almost like you found a way to balance it.
Except you don't know what you'll be opposing, so you either always take the generalist option, or you know the skew in the meta which means there is a "best" choice.
Soooooo how do other armies with specialist units handle it? Hmmmmm super difficult....
You pay for the opportunity cost the same as with these weapons, but I'd wager that all the various aspect warriors for example aren't either deviated enough that they all have a unique place or are evenly balanced in cost/potential that it doesn't matter what aspects you bring and get a balanced list/game.
And those Aspect Warriors all get the same weapon, not just 2 per 5!
So make the Plasma Gun more expensive. Wow, super difficult.
So I guess I know what the next few pages of "discussion" are going to be.
I don't really know the best answer for any of this mess but honestly I will say that I don't hate GW going "look, you don't have to buy 5 boxes to get enough lighting claws for a unit now", I just wish that was done with a robust bits set than restricting wargear options.
ClockworkZion wrote: So I guess I know what the next few pages of "discussion" are going to be.
I don't really know the best answer for any of this mess but honestly I will say that I don't hate GW going "look, you don't have to buy 5 boxes to get enough lighting claws for a unit now", I just wish that was done with a robust bits set than restricting wargear options.
While I wish loadout rules were not as restrictive as well, look at the upside.
ClockworkZion wrote: So I guess I know what the next few pages of "discussion" are going to be.
I don't really know the best answer for any of this mess but honestly I will say that I don't hate GW going "look, you don't have to buy 5 boxes to get enough lighting claws for a unit now", I just wish that was done with a robust bits set than restricting wargear options.
"You don't have to buy this - because it's no longer an option."
ClockworkZion wrote: So I guess I know what the next few pages of "discussion" are going to be.
I don't really know the best answer for any of this mess but honestly I will say that I don't hate GW going "look, you don't have to buy 5 boxes to get enough lighting claws for a unit now", I just wish that was done with a robust bits set than restricting wargear options.
Except the wargear restrictions aren't even based on "what's in the box". The Raptors/Warp Talons box contains 10 lighting claws, and yet, according to the leaks and leaked Raptors instruction sheets, Raptor Aspiring Champions can no longer have lighting claws. This despite lighting claws being an option for them since the units inception.
ClockworkZion wrote: So I guess I know what the next few pages of "discussion" are going to be.
I don't really know the best answer for any of this mess but honestly I will say that I don't hate GW going "look, you don't have to buy 5 boxes to get enough lighting claws for a unit now", I just wish that was done with a robust bits set than restricting wargear options.
Except the wargear restrictions aren't even based on "what's in the box". The Raptors/Warp Talons box contains 10 lighting claws, and yet, according to the leaks and leaked Raptors instruction sheets, Raptor Aspiring Champions can no longer have lighting claws. This despite lighting claws being an option for them since the units inception.
B-b-b-b-b-b-b-but the new players might be confused by options! Better make it so models only go together one way.
And those Aspect Warriors all get the same weapon, not just 2 per 5!
So make the Plasma Gun more expensive. Wow, super difficult.
OK, how much more does a plasma gun need to be? What price points do you foresee where you think "you know what it doesn't matter if I take a flamer, plasma gun or a melta gun, they're all going to be equally useful"?
Because if it was that simple I'm sure they'd have got it right by now.
ClockworkZion wrote: So I guess I know what the next few pages of "discussion" are going to be.
I don't really know the best answer for any of this mess but honestly I will say that I don't hate GW going "look, you don't have to buy 5 boxes to get enough lighting claws for a unit now", I just wish that was done with a robust bits set than restricting wargear options.
Except the wargear restrictions aren't even based on "what's in the box". The Raptors/Warp Talons box contains 10 lighting claws, and yet, according to the leaks and leaked Raptors instruction sheets, Raptor Aspiring Champions can no longer have lighting claws. This despite lighting claws being an option for them since the units inception.
B-b-b-b-b-b-b-but the new players might be confused by options! Better make it so models only go together one way.
As we know, new players are like dumb cattle, and concepts like conversions, kitbashing, or mixing kits, are anathema to them.
It really is just that simple. You take your base model for your codex and give it all three weapon options then you look at the average damage that they do vs the same target (if you want you can use more than one target and get more data points). Then you compare the results. After that you find out that weapon A is 2 times more effective than weapon B but only 3/4 as effective vs weapon C. Make weapon A cost a arbitrary point cost, make weapon B half that cost and weapon C 1/3 more. There you have it all 3 weapon options are now balanced.
The problem GW has is that they want to make weapon costs the same across various Codices that don't use the same base model stats (SM vs IG vs GK). So that the cost doesn't reflect the difference in effectiveness in each codex.
ClockworkZion wrote: So I guess I know what the next few pages of "discussion" are going to be.
I don't really know the best answer for any of this mess but honestly I will say that I don't hate GW going "look, you don't have to buy 5 boxes to get enough lighting claws for a unit now", I just wish that was done with a robust bits set than restricting wargear options.
Except the wargear restrictions aren't even based on "what's in the box". The Raptors/Warp Talons box contains 10 lighting claws, and yet, according to the leaks and leaked Raptors instruction sheets, Raptor Aspiring Champions can no longer have lighting claws. This despite lighting claws being an option for them since the units inception.
B-b-b-b-b-b-b-but the new players might be confused by options! Better make it so models only go together one way.
As we know, new players are like dumb cattle, and concepts like conversions, kitbashing, or mixing kits, are anathema to them.
And so is, apparently, using parts from the actual kit for the unit that they're building, in the case of Raptors.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: It really is just that simple. You take your base model for your codex and give it all three weapon options then you look at the average damage that they do vs the same target (if you want you can use more than one target and get more data points). Then you compare the results. After that you find out that weapon A is 2 times more effective than weapon B but only 3/4 as effective vs weapon C. Make weapon A cost a arbitrary point cost, make weapon B half that cost and weapon C 1/3 more. There you have it all 3 weapon options are now balanced.
The problem GW has is that they want to make weapon costs the same across various Codices that don't use the same base model stats (SM vs IG vs GK). So that the cost doesn't reflect the difference in effectiveness in each codex.
But it's not that simple, a melta gun is more effective against a vehicle, a plasma gun is more effective against meq and flamer against geq, but the amount of damage done alone doesn't reflect the different ranges of the weapons, different special rules and risks etc.
All of this balanced inside of a generally 10 point window, it isn't going to be perfect and there will be a "best" option overall.
And those Aspect Warriors all get the same weapon, not just 2 per 5!
So make the Plasma Gun more expensive. Wow, super difficult.
OK, how much more does a plasma gun need to be? What price points do you foresee where you think "you know what it doesn't matter if I take a flamer, plasma gun or a melta gun, they're all going to be equally useful"?
Because if it was that simple I'm sure they'd have got it right by now.
Bump it by 5 more points and then adjust as necessary. Another option is to look at the base model if you don't want to make the weapon itself more expensive. I'm 90% sure Scions pay for their HotShot Lasguns. Make the base model the same cost as now but make the HotShot free. There's a few different things you could do.
Also LOL at GW getting it right. Did you think they couldn't appropriately cost weapons and that's why Sword Brethren can only take 1 of each power weapon?
And so is, apparently, using parts from the actual kit for the unit that they're building, in the case of Raptors.
Is that really a road you want to go down?
What "road" is that, exactly? Because right now, it's looking like gw isn't even following their "you get what's in the box" road, in the instance of Raptor Aspiring Champions, and removing an option that they've had since the unit was first introduced in the 3rd edition CSM codex, even though there's 10 of them in the box.
And so is, apparently, using parts from the actual kit for the unit that they're building, in the case of Raptors.
Is that really a road you want to go down?
What "road" is that, exactly? Because right now, it's looking like gw isn't even following their "you get what's in the box" road, in the instance of Raptor Aspiring Champions, and removing an option that they've had since the unit was first introduced in the 3rd edition CSM codex, even though there's 10 of them in the box.
Cool, so can Skitarii Rangers start taking Radium Carbines? Vanguard taking Galvanic Rifles?
It's a dual box. You don't get to use all the pieces...which does well and truly feel wasteful at times.
It sucks you've lost some stuff on the Aspiring Champions, truly, but that's the way it goes...or so I've been told over the years(including several times by you!) for Lasguns on Sergeants+Officers.
And so is, apparently, using parts from the actual kit for the unit that they're building, in the case of Raptors.
Is that really a road you want to go down?
What "road" is that, exactly? Because right now, it's looking like gw isn't even following their "you get what's in the box" road, in the instance of Raptor Aspiring Champions, and removing an option that they've had since the unit was first introduced in the 3rd edition CSM codex, even though there's 10 of them in the box.
Cool, so can Skitarii Rangers start taking Radium Carbines? Vanguard taking Galvanic Rifles?
It's a dual box. You don't get to use all the pieces...which does well and truly feel wasteful at times.
It sucks you've lost some stuff on the Aspiring Champions, truly, but that's the way it goes...or so I've been told over the years(including several times by you!) for Lasguns on Sergeants+Officers.
When have I said that about Sergeants and Officers taking Lasguns? That isn't something that would bother me at all. I think you're confusing me with someone else.
And have Rangers ever been able to get Radium Carbines? If so, then they should still be able to. Same for Vanguard and Galvanic Rifles. I don't support removing options.
Yeah the no LCs on raptor champs is indefensible. It's been an option since before the box, it's part of the lore, it's part of existing models, it's still part of the kit.
It's like if they made a dreadnought kit that allowed you to make the mortis versions in addition to the more common ones, but then they decided to bar you from taking a lascannon on a regular dread.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Kan will take any opportunity to complain about Skitarii weapon options and insist that everyone else should be brought down because of it.
Not really, but I'm not hating the karma coming back on people telling me to "get over it" when they changed things.
When have I said that about Sergeants and Officers taking Lasguns? That isn't something that would bother me at all. I think you're confusing me with someone else.
Newp.
And have Rangers ever been able to get Radium Carbines? If so, then they should still be able to. Same for Vanguard and Galvanic Rifles. I don't support removing options.
No, because they're different unit loadouts.
Got a bunch of twin LC Raptors?
You've got Warp Talons now!
NinthMusketeer wrote: Kan will take any opportunity to complain about Skitarii weapon options and insist that everyone else should be brought down because of it.
Not really, but I'm not hating the karma coming back on people telling me to "get over it" when they changed things.
That sure looks like you're literally saying that it's some sort of spiritual or cosmic justice that everyone is brought down because of it?
When have I said that about Sergeants and Officers taking Lasguns? That isn't something that would bother me at all. I think you're confusing me with someone else.
Newp.
Yup. I guess you're going to blame me for whoever cut you off in traffic the other day too.
And have Rangers ever been able to get Radium Carbines? If so, then they should still be able to. Same for Vanguard and Galvanic Rifles. I don't support removing options.
No, because they're different unit loadouts.
Got a bunch of twin LC Raptors?
You've got Warp Talons now!
I already have enough for three full squads. I don't need anymore. And lightning claws have been a legal option for Raptor Aspiring Champions for 22 years. This invalidates a lot of people's models. That's not cool.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Kan will take any opportunity to complain about Skitarii weapon options and insist that everyone else should be brought down because of it.
Not really, but I'm not hating the karma coming back on people telling me to "get over it" when they changed things.
Literally nobody told you that, and everyone was annoyed when it started happening with Plague Marines. Don't make up problems with people that don't exist outside your head.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Kan will take any opportunity to complain about Skitarii weapon options and insist that everyone else should be brought down because of it.
Not really, but I'm not hating the karma coming back on people telling me to "get over it" when they changed things.
That sure looks like you're literally saying that it's some sort of spiritual or cosmic justice that everyone is brought down because of it?
When those same people complaining now are the ones for YEARS telling me to "adjust" or "get over it"?
When have I said that about Sergeants and Officers taking Lasguns? That isn't something that would bother me at all. I think you're confusing me with someone else.
Newp.
Yup. I guess you're going to blame me for whoever cut you off in traffic the other day too.
Well not you, it was the raptor champion who was driving using his lightning claws
When have I said that about Sergeants and Officers taking Lasguns? That isn't something that would bother me at all. I think you're confusing me with someone else.
Newp.
Yup. I guess you're going to blame me for whoever cut you off in traffic the other day too.
No, because you've posted repeatedly in Guard threads over the years--and when I brought up the Sgt/Officers with Lasguns bit the responses you tended to give were "it's not in the kit" or "you have to convert it"--or "why does it matter?".
It matters for the same reason twin-LC Raptors/ACs did: People had them.
And have Rangers ever been able to get Radium Carbines? If so, then they should still be able to. Same for Vanguard and Galvanic Rifles. I don't support removing options.
No, because they're different unit loadouts.
Got a bunch of twin LC Raptors? You've got Warp Talons now!
I already have enough for three full squads. I don't need anymore. And lightning claws have been a legal option for Raptor Aspiring Champions for 22 years. This invalidates a lot of people's models. That's not cool.
I never said it was cool...but it's the way things are now.
Just consider yourself lucky that you weren't Onagered.
Yo dude, dakka isn't one collective entity (I sure am complaining about this now and wasn't then because I didn't even know about it), people change, and if you're after years really so hurt by perceived slights (and I don't know that conversation so I'm accepting your experience as at very least your experience), why would you want to put toxic gak out there by doing exactly the same to others rather than recognize a shared experience and find a common ground of "I feel for you, that sucked when it happened for my army, sucks here too."
But also my point is you're saying exactly what you were denying Ninth was saying you were doing.
When have I said that about Sergeants and Officers taking Lasguns? That isn't something that would bother me at all. I think you're confusing me with someone else.
Newp.
Yup. I guess you're going to blame me for whoever cut you off in traffic the other day too.
No, because you've posted repeatedly in Guard threads over the years--and when I brought up the Sgt/Officers with Lasguns bit the responses you tended to give were "it's not in the kit" or "you have to convert it"--or "why does it matter?".
It matters for the same reason twin-LC Raptors/ACs did: People had them.
And have Rangers ever been able to get Radium Carbines? If so, then they should still be able to. Same for Vanguard and Galvanic Rifles. I don't support removing options.
No, because they're different unit loadouts.
Got a bunch of twin LC Raptors?
You've got Warp Talons now!
I already have enough for three full squads. I don't need anymore. And lightning claws have been a legal option for Raptor Aspiring Champions for 22 years. This invalidates a lot of people's models. That's not cool.
I never said it was cool...but it's the way things are now.
Just consider yourself lucky that you weren't Onagered.
No, I haven't. I searched my comments under both "Imperial Guard" and "Astra Militarum", just to see if I had, and had forgotten about it. I can't find anything. You're complaining about things others have said, not me. But enjoy others sharing in your problems, I guess.
Gadzilla666 wrote: When have I said that about Sergeants and Officers taking Lasguns?
Putting aside the absurd Skitarii examples he attempted, the Sergeant + Lasguns thing is Kan's personal pet peeve. It's one his "Greatest Hits"*. He brings it up all the time, and has a very "If I can't get what I want, then none of you should get what you want!" attitude towards it.
And he's been singing this same tune for years.
*Alongside:
1. Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus should be different armies (even though they were never intended as such, and he knows that, because the guy responsible said as much, and yet he still denies it). 2. Skitarii special weapon restrictions are all because of plasma weapons! It's all the fault of plasma weapons! 3. Points are evil, and anyone who uses them are evil (ignoring the fact that points have been an integral part of the game since before 2nd Ed came about). 4. Tournaments ruin everything for everyone.
spiralingcadaver wrote: Yo dude, dakka isn't one collective entity (I sure am complaining about this now and wasn't then because I didn't even know about it), people change, and if you're after years really so hurt by perceived slights (and I don't know that conversation so I'm accepting your experience as at very least your experience), why would you want to put toxic gak out there by doing exactly the same to others rather than recognize a shared experience and find a common ground of "I feel for you, that sucked when it happened for my army, sucks here too."
Because I spent bloody years trying to be sympathetic to everyone else, only to constantly get dogpiled on.
But also my point is you're saying exactly what you were denying Ninth was saying you were doing.
There's a difference between actively advocating for(which is what Ninth said I was doing) and enjoying when the shoe is on the other foot for people that continually have said that the problem they are so upset about now was okay when it was someone else's problem.
No, I haven't. I searched my comments under both "Imperial Guard" and "Astra Militarum", just to see if I had, and had forgotten about it. I can't find anything. You're complaining about things others have said, not me. But enjoy others sharing in your problems, I guess.
I guess it's totally possible I've mistaken you for yet another poster who had "666" in their handle.
But my point remains:
Yours is not the only army this has happened to. Nor will it be the last. And it's not a question of "But I could do X for so many years!". GW doesn't bloody care.
I’m quite bummed for everyone that loses options and models they spent hours making due to GW’s decision making. My chaos got hit hard and I do fear the same for my imperial guard. I’m happy that my Adeptus Mechanicus have rules, but even they have been hit with the bland bat, like onagers and robots used to have cool heavy shielding and double shooting and now they are just “lol”.
I don’t care that much about competitive beyond a desire to not have to fight invulnerable eldar or whatever other “doomed from the start” matchups. GW’s balance swings, while having FAQs at all is much better than not, have sucked and made playing the game not that appealing.
EDIT: The thing that everyone has been unsympathetic about, Kanluwen, is the Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus being released separately and then reduced in options when combined? That does suck. I didn’t know what special things the solo codexes had. I bought Skitarii when it came out but I didn’t play the game in that edition.
No, I haven't. I searched my comments under both "Imperial Guard" and "Astra Militarum", just to see if I had, and had forgotten about it. I can't find anything. You're complaining about things others have said, not me. But enjoy others sharing in your problems, I guess.
I guess it's totally possible I've mistaken you for yet another poster who had "666" in their handle.
But my point remains:
Yours is not the only army this has happened to. Nor will it be the last. And it's not a question of "But I could do X for so many years!". GW doesn't bloody care.
Well, there are quite a few of us. There's even one who's handle is so close to mine that I sometimes confuse them with myself when I see them pop up.
But your "point" is poor. Because it shouldn't happen to any army. And gwshould "bloody care". No one should lose options, or have their models invalidated, including the Guard.
ClockworkZion wrote: So I guess I know what the next few pages of "discussion" are going to be.
I don't really know the best answer for any of this mess but honestly I will say that I don't hate GW going "look, you don't have to buy 5 boxes to get enough lighting claws for a unit now", I just wish that was done with a robust bits set than restricting wargear options.
Except the wargear restrictions aren't even based on "what's in the box". The Raptors/Warp Talons box contains 10 lighting claws, and yet, according to the leaks and leaked Raptors instruction sheets, Raptor Aspiring Champions can no longer have lighting claws. This despite lighting claws being an option for them since the units inception.
B-b-b-b-b-b-b-but the new players might be confused by options! Better make it so models only go together one way.
As we know, new players are like dumb cattle, and concepts like conversions, kitbashing, or mixing kits, are anathema to them.
Comments like this do a lot keeping new players out of the hobby (speaking personally). A funny choice to make considering how already shockingly difficult it is to break into correctly. Is it really that hard to tone down the hate lol
*edit* not that folks will listen to hate mongers but you know….some of us choose to spend time in friendlier communities given the choice so by all means, say what you want just don’t be surprised when a hobby you like starts to die again because new blood and the actual company get treated like crap
Gadzilla666 wrote: When have I said that about Sergeants and Officers taking Lasguns?
Putting aside the absurd Skitarii examples he attempted, the Sergeant + Lasguns thing is Kan's personal pet peeve. It's one his "Greatest Hits"*. He brings it up all the time, and has a very "If I can't get what I want, then none of you should get what you want!" attitude towards it.
And he's been singing this same tune for years.
*Alongside:
1. Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus should be different armies (even though they were never intended as such, and he knows that, because the guy responsible said as much, and yet he still denies it).
2. Skitarii special weapon restrictions are all because of plasma weapons! It's all the fault of plasma weapons!
3. Points are evil, and anyone who uses them are evil (ignoring the fact that points have been an integral part of the game since before 2nd Ed came about).
4. Tournaments ruin everything for everyone.
Would you stop pressing the Kan buttons ? We'll be there for days
ClockworkZion wrote: So I guess I know what the next few pages of "discussion" are going to be.
I don't really know the best answer for any of this mess but honestly I will say that I don't hate GW going "look, you don't have to buy 5 boxes to get enough lighting claws for a unit now", I just wish that was done with a robust bits set than restricting wargear options.
Except the wargear restrictions aren't even based on "what's in the box". The Raptors/Warp Talons box contains 10 lighting claws, and yet, according to the leaks and leaked Raptors instruction sheets, Raptor Aspiring Champions can no longer have lighting claws. This despite lighting claws being an option for them since the units inception.
B-b-b-b-b-b-b-but the new players might be confused by options! Better make it so models only go together one way.
As we know, new players are like dumb cattle, and concepts like conversions, kitbashing, or mixing kits, are anathema to them.
Comments like this do a lot keeping new players out of the hobby (speaking personally). A funny choice to make considering how already shockingly difficult it is to break into correctly. Is it really that hard to tone down the hate lol
*edit* not that folks will listen to hate mongers but you know….some of us choose to spend time in friendlier communities given the choice so by all means, say what you want just don’t be surprised when a hobby you like starts to die again because new blood and the actual company get treated like crap
The most popular Wargame in the world made by the world's most profitable miniature company isn't going to die overnight because someone said a few mean words about their business decisions in a niche forum.
ClockworkZion wrote: So I guess I know what the next few pages of "discussion" are going to be.
I don't really know the best answer for any of this mess but honestly I will say that I don't hate GW going "look, you don't have to buy 5 boxes to get enough lighting claws for a unit now", I just wish that was done with a robust bits set than restricting wargear options.
"You don't have to buy this - because it's no longer an option."
Not exactly seeing what the upside is here.
Pretty sure community concensus was "forcing" people to buy multiple kits to get specific loadouts was seen as exploitive, but here we are crying about them not exploiting people now?
Like I said, I wish we saw a HH style solution with weapon packs, but requiring less kits isn't a bad direction.
ClockworkZion wrote: So I guess I know what the next few pages of "discussion" are going to be.
I don't really know the best answer for any of this mess but honestly I will say that I don't hate GW going "look, you don't have to buy 5 boxes to get enough lighting claws for a unit now", I just wish that was done with a robust bits set than restricting wargear options.
Except the wargear restrictions aren't even based on "what's in the box". The Raptors/Warp Talons box contains 10 lighting claws, and yet, according to the leaks and leaked Raptors instruction sheets, Raptor Aspiring Champions can no longer have lighting claws. This despite lighting claws being an option for them since the units inception.
B-b-b-b-b-b-b-but the new players might be confused by options! Better make it so models only go together one way.
As we know, new players are like dumb cattle, and concepts like conversions, kitbashing, or mixing kits, are anathema to them.
For years I have seen players, many of which I still see online, who balk at conversions or being "forced" to convert things. I feel like this is more GW reacting to those years of rather vocal complaints over "lol, new people are dumb".
I was talking more about the Terminator datasheet. I have no opinions on the Raptors because that is an easy fix for GW requiring an FAQ at most assuming "lightning claw" isn't on the melee wargear list for him.
Gadzilla666 wrote: When have I said that about Sergeants and Officers taking Lasguns?
Putting aside the absurd Skitarii examples he attempted, the Sergeant + Lasguns thing is Kan's personal pet peeve. It's one his "Greatest Hits"*. He brings it up all the time, and has a very "If I can't get what I want, then none of you should get what you want!" attitude towards it.
And he's been singing this same tune for years.
*Alongside:
1. Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus should be different armies (even though they were never intended as such, and he knows that, because the guy responsible said as much, and yet he still denies it).
2. Skitarii special weapon restrictions are all because of plasma weapons! It's all the fault of plasma weapons!
3. Points are evil, and anyone who uses them are evil (ignoring the fact that points have been an integral part of the game since before 2nd Ed came about).
4. Tournaments ruin everything for everyone.
It's really weird because he'll go on a tangent about Vanguard with Plasma ruined Rangers taking Plasma even though Rangers with Plasma weren't taken because any real fluff bunny would've taken them with three Arqs, which was consequently ruined.
ClockworkZion wrote: So I guess I know what the next few pages of "discussion" are going to be.
I don't really know the best answer for any of this mess but honestly I will say that I don't hate GW going "look, you don't have to buy 5 boxes to get enough lighting claws for a unit now", I just wish that was done with a robust bits set than restricting wargear options.
Except the wargear restrictions aren't even based on "what's in the box". The Raptors/Warp Talons box contains 10 lighting claws, and yet, according to the leaks and leaked Raptors instruction sheets, Raptor Aspiring Champions can no longer have lighting claws. This despite lighting claws being an option for them since the units inception.
B-b-b-b-b-b-b-but the new players might be confused by options! Better make it so models only go together one way.
As we know, new players are like dumb cattle, and concepts like conversions, kitbashing, or mixing kits, are anathema to them.
For years I have seen players, many of which I still see online, who balk at conversions or being "forced" to convert things. I feel like this is more GW reacting to those years of rather vocal complaints over "lol, new people are dumb".
I was talking more about the Terminator datasheet. I have no opinions on the Raptors because that is an easy fix for GW requiring an FAQ at most assuming "lightning claw" isn't on the melee wargear list for him.
One of the ironies of the terminator lightning claw argument is that there were zero lightning claws in the previous chaos terminator kit. You had to buy the terminator lord 5 times over to get enough lightning claws for your terminators.
Here's the thing: "Build only what's in the box" is an issue that affects Chaos more than any other faction. We've seen a few changes with a handful of other factions, like Admech, but Chaos Marines and Death Guard have lost whole unit builds that people had spent money and time converting and buying bits for.
On the whole, I do think that needing to buy extra kits to build a unit is a *bad* thing. You shouldn't have to go out of your way to do something like this to make a unit.
The flip side of that coin is that THE CHAOS UNITS SHOULD HAVE THESE BITS IN THE KIT.
But, that in and of itself is wishful thinking. To get enough lightning claws and other weapons in the Chaos Terminator kit, or to get more into the Plague Marines or Blightlord Terminators kit, would require a whole extra sprue of material, which means the price of the kit would be jacked up 50%. Chaos Terminators would be 80-90 USD while regular Space Marine Terminators would remain around 50-60. That in and of itself would drive a whole other slew of arguments.
So where's the happy medium? Well, honestly, something like what GW is doing with Kill Team or Horus Heresy.
In Kill Team, you have the option of buying Pathfinders for 42 dollars, or the Kill Team Pathfinders with their extra sprue for 55 dollars. If you want those extra bits, you can get them, but you're not forced to.
Alternatively, sell weapon and upgrade packs separately. It swells the 3rd party bits market, but at the same time it gives players much more control over what they want to build and play.
And at the heart of all of this argument is this: Many players want CONTROL over what they build and play, and every step that GW takes to strip away that control is seen as a dire offense. This is why Chaos players that have been around long enough are particularly grumpy: we went from 3.5ed Codex where we had control over every little aspect of our chaos marines, to having all of that steadily stripped, blandified, and removed edition after edition, in exchange for dinobots.
So, this latest rendition of GW stripping away control and not giving Chaos players ways to build their choice units, or even use the choice units that they've been using for years, makes a lot of people really grumpy.
Will we get some sort of happy medium situation in the future? Maybe, but I doubt it. There's gotta be demand for it, and running circles on dakkadakka =/= demand.
ClockworkZion wrote: So I guess I know what the next few pages of "discussion" are going to be.
I don't really know the best answer for any of this mess but honestly I will say that I don't hate GW going "look, you don't have to buy 5 boxes to get enough lighting claws for a unit now", I just wish that was done with a robust bits set than restricting wargear options.
Except the wargear restrictions aren't even based on "what's in the box". The Raptors/Warp Talons box contains 10 lighting claws, and yet, according to the leaks and leaked Raptors instruction sheets, Raptor Aspiring Champions can no longer have lighting claws. This despite lighting claws being an option for them since the units inception.
B-b-b-b-b-b-b-but the new players might be confused by options! Better make it so models only go together one way.
As we know, new players are like dumb cattle, and concepts like conversions, kitbashing, or mixing kits, are anathema to them.
Comments like this do a lot keeping new players out of the hobby (speaking personally). A funny choice to make considering how already shockingly difficult it is to break into correctly. Is it really that hard to tone down the hate lol
*edit* not that folks will listen to hate mongers but you know….some of us choose to spend time in friendlier communities given the choice so by all means, say what you want just don’t be surprised when a hobby you like starts to die again because new blood and the actual company get treated like crap
In a (minor) defense of blood reaper, I think he just forgot to include a "/s" at the end of his post to indicate sarcasm - I doubt he actually holds those views.
ClockworkZion wrote: So I guess I know what the next few pages of "discussion" are going to be.
I don't really know the best answer for any of this mess but honestly I will say that I don't hate GW going "look, you don't have to buy 5 boxes to get enough lighting claws for a unit now", I just wish that was done with a robust bits set than restricting wargear options.
Except the wargear restrictions aren't even based on "what's in the box". The Raptors/Warp Talons box contains 10 lighting claws, and yet, according to the leaks and leaked Raptors instruction sheets, Raptor Aspiring Champions can no longer have lighting claws. This despite lighting claws being an option for them since the units inception.
B-b-b-b-b-b-b-but the new players might be confused by options! Better make it so models only go together one way.
As we know, new players are like dumb cattle, and concepts like conversions, kitbashing, or mixing kits, are anathema to them.
For years I have seen players, many of which I still see online, who balk at conversions or being "forced" to convert things. I feel like this is more GW reacting to those years of rather vocal complaints over "lol, new people are dumb".
I was talking more about the Terminator datasheet. I have no opinions on the Raptors because that is an easy fix for GW requiring an FAQ at most assuming "lightning claw" isn't on the melee wargear list for him.
One of the ironies of the terminator lightning claw argument is that there were zero lightning claws in the previous chaos terminator kit. You had to buy the terminator lord 5 times over to get enough lightning claws for your terminators.
Here's the thing: "Build only what's in the box" is an issue that affects Chaos more than any other faction. We've seen a few changes with a handful of other factions, like Admech, but Chaos Marines and Death Guard have lost whole unit builds that people had spent money and time converting and buying bits for.
On the whole, I do think that needing to buy extra kits to build a unit is a *bad* thing. You shouldn't have to go out of your way to do something like this to make a unit.
The flip side of that coin is that THE CHAOS UNITS SHOULD HAVE THESE BITS IN THE KIT.
But, that in and of itself is wishful thinking. To get enough lightning claws and other weapons in the Chaos Terminator kit, or to get more into the Plague Marines or Blightlord Terminators kit, would require a whole extra sprue of material, which means the price of the kit would be jacked up 50%. Chaos Terminators would be 80-90 USD while regular Space Marine Terminators would remain around 50-60. That in and of itself would drive a whole other slew of arguments.
So where's the happy medium? Well, honestly, something like what GW is doing with Kill Team or Horus Heresy.
In Kill Team, you have the option of buying Pathfinders for 42 dollars, or the Kill Team Pathfinders with their extra sprue for 55 dollars. If you want those extra bits, you can get them, but you're not forced to.
Alternatively, sell weapon and upgrade packs separately. It swells the 3rd party bits market, but at the same time it gives players much more control over what they want to build and play.
And at the heart of all of this argument is this: Many players want CONTROL over what they build and play, and every step that GW takes to strip away that control is seen as a dire offense. This is why Chaos players that have been around long enough are particularly grumpy: we went from 3.5ed Codex where we had control over every little aspect of our chaos marines, to having all of that steadily stripped, blandified, and removed edition after edition, in exchange for dinobots.
So, this latest rendition of GW stripping away control and not giving Chaos players ways to build their choice units, or even use the choice units that they've been using for years, makes a lot of people really grumpy.
Will we get some sort of happy medium situation in the future? Maybe, but I doubt it. There's gotta be demand for it, and running circles on dakkadakka =/= demand.
You mention the 'happy medium' in passing: the HH packs o' guns (and Necromunda as well). Its just... its great for those games, but it doesn't matter once options are stripped out of the codex itself.
Its honestly bafflingly shortsighted to do these cutbacks NOW, a mere month or two before piles of weapons become easily available. (and once HH does assault marines, I suspect there will be a round of close combat weapon packs as well)
Either the 30k and 40k folks don't talk to each other, or someone's planning at cross-purposes. (And that's before we get into things like Relic terminators, contemptors and now sicarans not being in the chaos codex, despite the first two being in the loyalist book and the new Sicaran being specifically mentioned as cross-game. Sell your crap to your willing audience, GW!)
Pretty sure community concensus was "forcing" people to buy multiple kits to get specific loadouts was seen as exploitive, but here we are crying about them not exploiting people now?
No, the thing people are "crying about" is that invalidating models that people have already bought/built/painted is worse.
Pretty sure community concensus was "forcing" people to buy multiple kits to get specific loadouts was seen as exploitive, but here we are crying about them not exploiting people now?
No, the thing people are "crying about" is that invalidating models that people have already bought/built/painted is worse.
Also when people DID complain about it, they were rightfully pointed to 3rd parties that could help alleviate the weapon issue. GW trying to cut them out as usual.
Pretty sure community concensus was "forcing" people to buy multiple kits to get specific loadouts was seen as exploitive, but here we are crying about them not exploiting people now?
No, the thing people are "crying about" is that invalidating models that people have already bought/built/painted is worse.
Also when people DID complain about it, they were rightfully pointed to 3rd parties that could help alleviate the weapon issue. GW trying to cut them out as usual.
I have mixed feelings about this sort of thing, but honestly I really don't want the Chaos Space Marine codex rumors thread to head down this jumbled and messy argument.
Pretty sure community concensus was "forcing" people to buy multiple kits to get specific loadouts was seen as exploitive, but here we are crying about them not exploiting people now?
No, the thing people are "crying about" is that invalidating models that people have already bought/built/painted is worse.
Also when people DID complain about it, they were rightfully pointed to 3rd parties that could help alleviate the weapon issue. GW trying to cut them out as usual.
I have mixed feelings about this sort of thing, but honestly I really don't want the Chaos Space Marine codex rumors thread to head down this jumbled and messy argument.
The argument has everything to do with the codex and how GW has continued to release them. Like it or not, it's gonna be a central problem and topic unless they change.
Memnoch wrote: So tbis seems to have gotten messy and negative.
Is there anything exciting about the ciodex rumours so far to look forward to? (Other than getting Daemons back)
So far it's just a matter of waiting.
I spotted a picture of this month's White Dwarf. The last page says: "Next Issue: World Eaters update!"
This would be the update to allow people to take Khorne Berzerkers and such until they get their own Codex. That White Dwarf would be due out mid-June.
GW has put out a few White Dwarfs with rules ahead of codex releases (Craftworld: Altansar, ahead of the Aeldari Codex).
In other words, that puts the timeframe of the Codex release anywhere between the 28th of May at the earliest, to the end of June.
Memnoch wrote: So tbis seems to have gotten messy and negative.
Is there anything exciting about the ciodex rumours so far to look forward to? (Other than getting Daemons back)
So far it's just a matter of waiting.
I spotted a picture of this month's White Dwarf. The last page says: "Next Issue: World Eaters update!"
This would be the update to allow people to take Khorne Berzerkers and such until they get their own Codex. That White Dwarf would be due out mid-June.
GW has put out a few White Dwarfs with rules ahead of codex releases (Craftworld: Altansar, ahead of the Aeldari Codex).
In other words, that puts the timeframe of the Codex release anywhere between the 28th of May at the earliest, to the end of June.
Considering that we've just gone an entire week without any "hype", I'd say it's likely to be later rather than sooner. Especially since all of the current hype is being directed at HH. CSM may be after HH after all.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: It really is just that simple. You take your base model for your codex and give it all three weapon options then you look at the average damage that they do vs the same target (if you want you can use more than one target and get more data points). Then you compare the results. After that you find out that weapon A is 2 times more effective than weapon B but only 3/4 as effective vs weapon C. Make weapon A cost a arbitrary point cost, make weapon B half that cost and weapon C 1/3 more. There you have it all 3 weapon options are now balanced.
The problem GW has is that they want to make weapon costs the same across various Codices that don't use the same base model stats (SM vs IG vs GK). So that the cost doesn't reflect the difference in effectiveness in each codex.
But it's not that simple, a melta gun is more effective against a vehicle, a plasma gun is more effective against meq and flamer against geq, but the amount of damage done alone doesn't reflect the different ranges of the weapons, different special rules and risks etc.
All of this balanced inside of a generally 10 point window, it isn't going to be perfect and there will be a "best" option overall.
Flamer kills a lot of grunt infantry. Grunts are cheap and so the flamer will be the cheapest upgrade.
Plasma gun kills elite infantry and can pose a threat to vehicles/monsters. As elite infanty is the most encountered unit in the game this weapon will be the most costly of the three.
Meltagun poses the biggest threat to vehicles/monsters which are also the most costly models. However vehicles are usually present in low numbers in 40k battles and therefore the meltagun is cheaper than the plasma gun.
There may be exceptions to the above. During 3rd there were rules for Deathworld Jungle worlds which made life for vehicles very difficult as LOS was heavily restricted and every move forced the vehicle to pass terrain tests. So there weren´t much vehicles to be found and another effect was that grunts could move with less danger of being obliterated by long range firepower thus increasing the likelihood of fielding those units. This meant flamer weapons went up in costs as they were perfect for attacking infantry on a board where almost everywhere cover saves were being available.
ClockworkZion wrote: So I guess I know what the next few pages of "discussion" are going to be.
I don't really know the best answer for any of this mess but honestly I will say that I don't hate GW going "look, you don't have to buy 5 boxes to get enough lighting claws for a unit now", I just wish that was done with a robust bits set than restricting wargear options.
Except the wargear restrictions aren't even based on "what's in the box". The Raptors/Warp Talons box contains 10 lighting claws, and yet, according to the leaks and leaked Raptors instruction sheets, Raptor Aspiring Champions can no longer have lighting claws. This despite lighting claws being an option for them since the units inception.
B-b-b-b-b-b-b-but the new players might be confused by options! Better make it so models only go together one way.
As we know, new players are like dumb cattle, and concepts like conversions, kitbashing, or mixing kits, are anathema to them.
Comments like this do a lot keeping new players out of the hobby (speaking personally). A funny choice to make considering how already shockingly difficult it is to break into correctly. Is it really that hard to tone down the hate lol
*edit* not that folks will listen to hate mongers but you know….some of us choose to spend time in friendlier communities given the choice so by all means, say what you want just don’t be surprised when a hobby you like starts to die again because new blood and the actual company get treated like crap
99% sure he was being sarcastic, and saying that new players are plenty smart enough to figure that stuff out (which of course they are, they figure out the actual rules after all).
ClockworkZion wrote: So I guess I know what the next few pages of "discussion" are going to be.
I don't really know the best answer for any of this mess but honestly I will say that I don't hate GW going "look, you don't have to buy 5 boxes to get enough lighting claws for a unit now", I just wish that was done with a robust bits set than restricting wargear options.
"You don't have to buy this - because it's no longer an option."
Not exactly seeing what the upside is here.
Pretty sure community concensus was "forcing" people to buy multiple kits to get specific loadouts was seen as exploitive, but here we are crying about them not exploiting people now?
Like I said, I wish we saw a HH style solution with weapon packs, but requiring less kits isn't a bad direction.
No, that was never the consensus. Sure a few people cried about it, but there's always someone doing that about anything, even to the point of things that aren't even real (as Kan has so kindly demonstrated). What large numbers of people had a problem with was kits where every model could have X weapon and there was only 1 or even 0 of that weapon included. This almost always coincided with new weapons being introduced, so the impression was that it was made more difficult to use the classic options in order to add in new ones that weren't needed or asked for. What people have always wanted is what they are doing with HH now; a base kit with separately-purchasable upgrade kits to provide the special options needed. Alternatively a 5-man squad having 2 of each special weapon is generally regarded as a decent compromise, as two boxes then gives two units that each have 4 of a certain weapon while the champion has an alternate loadout.
And that really is the key point that GW seems to be missing here; people will run a variety of weapons but very rarely is it in the form of 1 of each on the same unit. Instead it will be one squad with max flamers, another with max plasma, another kitted out for melee, etc. That way when the person buys multiple boxes and swaps the bits between them they are able to do that with no wasted purchase. And outside of the competitive sphere, which is a small minority of players, that was very common to see.
ClockworkZion wrote: So I guess I know what the next few pages of "discussion" are going to be.
I don't really know the best answer for any of this mess but honestly I will say that I don't hate GW going "look, you don't have to buy 5 boxes to get enough lighting claws for a unit now", I just wish that was done with a robust bits set than restricting wargear options.
Except the wargear restrictions aren't even based on "what's in the box". The Raptors/Warp Talons box contains 10 lighting claws, and yet, according to the leaks and leaked Raptors instruction sheets, Raptor Aspiring Champions can no longer have lighting claws. This despite lighting claws being an option for them since the units inception.
B-b-b-b-b-b-b-but the new players might be confused by options! Better make it so models only go together one way.
As we know, new players are like dumb cattle, and concepts like conversions, kitbashing, or mixing kits, are anathema to them.
Comments like this do a lot keeping new players out of the hobby (speaking personally). A funny choice to make considering how already shockingly difficult it is to break into correctly. Is it really that hard to tone down the hate lol
*edit* not that folks will listen to hate mongers but you know….some of us choose to spend time in friendlier communities given the choice so by all means, say what you want just don’t be surprised when a hobby you like starts to die again because new blood and the actual company get treated like crap
Don´t be too sensitive. Dakka dakka is inhabited by grognards and the young folk hang out on social media. Chances are rather slim that those comments hurt anybody. Another thing the above poster forgot is the ability to build your own terrain. This perk has been sadly lost to a lot of juves.
ClockworkZion wrote: So I guess I know what the next few pages of "discussion" are going to be.
I don't really know the best answer for any of this mess but honestly I will say that I don't hate GW going "look, you don't have to buy 5 boxes to get enough lighting claws for a unit now", I just wish that was done with a robust bits set than restricting wargear options.
Except the wargear restrictions aren't even based on "what's in the box". The Raptors/Warp Talons box contains 10 lighting claws, and yet, according to the leaks and leaked Raptors instruction sheets, Raptor Aspiring Champions can no longer have lighting claws. This despite lighting claws being an option for them since the units inception.
B-b-b-b-b-b-b-but the new players might be confused by options! Better make it so models only go together one way.
As we know, new players are like dumb cattle, and concepts like conversions, kitbashing, or mixing kits, are anathema to them.
Comments like this do a lot keeping new players out of the hobby (speaking personally). A funny choice to make considering how already shockingly difficult it is to break into correctly. Is it really that hard to tone down the hate lol
*edit* not that folks will listen to hate mongers but you know….some of us choose to spend time in friendlier communities given the choice so by all means, say what you want just don’t be surprised when a hobby you like starts to die again because new blood and the actual company get treated like crap
Don´t be too sensitive. Dakka dakka is inhabited by grognards and the young folk hang out on social media. Chances are rather slim that those comments hurt anybody. Another thing the above poster forgot is the ability to build your own terrain. This perk has been sadly lost to a lot of juves.
We're all very impressed by your ability to glue sand to insulation foam. Truly a master of the arts.
Also, genius, internet forums are a form social media.
I love how proud people are about buying incomplete kits back in the day. "I made my own lasplas, obviously because I'm so awesome and creative! I totally didn't just let GW trick me into keeping lascannon and plasma bits off the secondary market!"
jump pack.
Baby steps!
is that invalidating models that people have already bought/built/painted is worse.
